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Commons Chamber

Volume 132: debated on Thursday 5 August 1920

House of Commons

Thursday, August 5, 1920

Private Business

North British and Mercantile Insurance Company Bill [ Lords ],

A verbal Amendment made; Bill read the Third time, and passed, with an Amendment.

Merthyr Tydfil Corporation Bill [ Lords ],

As amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to be read the Third time.

Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill ( by Order ),

Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.

Standing Orders (Private Business)

The Amendments of Standing Orders that appear on the Notice Paper in my name are all drafting Amendments. They raise no point of principle. I gave notice of them a week ago, in order that they might be examined by persons interested in the Private Business of the House. No representations of any kind have reached me, and therefore I assume that they have been examined and approved by those concerned in matters of Private Business.

STANDING ORDER 9.—(Publication of Notices in Gazettes and Newspapers.)

In the months of October and November , or either of them, immediately preceding the Application for a Bill, the notice shall be published once in the London or Dublin Gazette , as the case may be, and in the following newspapers, namely:

Amendment made: After the word "London," insert the word "Edinburgh"

STANDING ORDER 25B.—(Deposit of Map in case of Bills for supply of Electrical Energy.)

In cases of Bills for the supply of electrical energy, an ordnance map on a scale of not less than one inch to the mile, with the proposed area of supply marked thereon, shall be deposited at the Office of the Board of Trade on or before the 30th day of November.

Amendment made: Leave out the words "Board of Trade," and insert instead thereof the words "Ministry of Transport."

STANDING ORDER 26.—(Deposit in case of Bill affecting tidal lands.)

In cases where tidal lands within the ordinary spring tides are to be acquired, or in any way affected, the copy of the plans and Sections shall, on or before the 30th day of November immediately preceding the application for the Bill, be deposited at the office of the Harbour Department, Board of Trade, marked "Tidal Waters…

Amendment made: Leave out the word "Harbour," and insert instead thereof the word "Marine."

STANDING ORDER 33.—(Deposit of Private Bills at Treasury and other Public Departments.)

On or before the 21st day of December, a printed copy should be deposited—

(1) of every Private Bill, at the Office of His Majesty's Treasury, and at the General Post Office;

(2) of every Private Bill relating to England and Wales at the Office of the Secretary of State for the Home Department and at the Ministry of Health;

(3) of every local Bill relating to Ireland, at the Irish Office;

(4) of every Bill relating to gas, water, patents, or electric lighting, or for incorporating or giving powers to any company, at the Office of the Board of Trade, and of every Bill relating to railways, light railways, tramways, canals, waterways, inland navigations, roads, bridges, ferries, or the vehicles and traffic thereon, harbours, docks, and piers, at the Office of the Minister of Transport;

(5) of every Bill relating to the generation of electricity for supply to persons or bodies other than the promoters, at the Office of the Board of Trade and at the Office of the Commissioners of Works;

(6) of every Bill affecting foreshore or tidal lands within the ordinary spring tides, or relating to any dock, harbour, navigation, pier, port, or tidal

(7)….

Amendments made: In Sub-section (3), after the word "to" ["relating to Ireland"], insert the words "Scotland or."

After the word "at" ["at the Irish Office"], insert the words "the office of the Secretary for Scotland or."

After the word "Office" ["Irish Office"], insert the words "as the case may be."

In Sub-section (4), leave out the words "or electric lighting."

After the word "piers," insert the words "and of every Bill relating to the generation or supply of electricity."

In Sub-section (5), leave out the words "at the office of the Board of Trade and."

In Sub-section (6), leave out the word "Harbour," and insert instead thereof the word "Marine."

STANDING ORDER 38.—(Deposit of statement relating to working class houses.)

The expression "central authority" means, as regards England and Wales, the Local Government Board, and as regards Ireland, the Local ) Government Board for Ireland;

Amendment made: Leave out the words "Local Government Board" [ "the Local Government Board and " ], and insert, instead thereof, the words "Ministry of Health."

STANDING ORDER 61.—(Notices and deposits where work altered while Bill is in Parliament.)

Whenever during the progress through the House of Lords of any Bill of the Second Class originating in that House, any alteration has been made in any work authorised by such Bill, proof shall be given before the Examiners that a Plan and Section of such alteration, on the same scale and containing the same particulars as the original Plan and Section, together with a Book of Reference thereto, has been deposited in the Private Bill Office, and with the Clerk of the Peace of every County, Riding, or Division in England or Ireland, in which such alteration is proposed to be made, and that a copy of such Plan and Section, so far as relates to any of the areas mentioned in Standing Order 29, together with a Book of Reference thereto, has been deposited with the officers respectively mentioned in that Order, as the case may be, Two weeks previously to the introduction of the Bill into this House; and that the intention to make such alteration has been published previously to the introduction of the Bill into this House once in the London or Dublin Gazette, as the case may be, and for Two successive weeks in some one and the same newspaper of the County in which such alteration is situate;

Amendments made: After the word "Ireland" insert the words "and in the office of the Sheriff Clerk in every county in Scotland."

After the word "made" ["is proposed to be made"], insert the words "and when any county in Scotland is for Sheriff Court purposes divided into districts then also in the office of the principal Sheriff Clerk in and for each district in which such alteration is proposed to be made."

After the word "London," insert the word "Edinburgh."

STANDING ORDER 62.—(Meeting of proprietors originating in case of certain Bills in this House.)

Such meeting shall be called by advertisement inserted once in each of two consecutive weeks in some one and the same news paper published in London, or Dublin, as the case may be.

Amendment made: After the word "London" insert the word "Edinburgh."

STANDING ORDER 64.—(Meeting of proprietors in case of certain Bills originating in the House of Lords.)

Such meeting shall be called by advertisement inserted once in each of two consecutive weeks in some one and the same newspaper published, in London, or Dublin, as the case may be,

Amendment made: After the word "London" insert the word "Edinburgh"

STANDING ORDER 66.—(Consent of proprietors of any company to sum authorised to be raised in aid of undertaking of another company.)

When any Bill….

….have been published once in the London, or Dublin Gazette, ….

Amendment made: After the word "London" insert the word "Edinburgh."

STANDING ORDER 157A.—(Generating Stations.)

In the case of any Bill relating to the generation of electricity for supply to persona or bodies other than the Promoters, the Bill shall not be reported by the Committee until a Report from the Board of Trade and His Majesty's Office of Works on the powers sought has been laid before the Committee; and the Committee shall Report specially to the House in what manner the recommendations or observations in the Report of the Board of Trade and His Majesty's Office of Works, and also in what manner the Clauses of the Bill relating to the powers sought, have been dealt with by the Committee.

Amendments made: After the word "generation," insert the words "or supply."

Leave out the words "for supply to persons or bodies other than the promoters."

Leave out the words "Board of Trade" ["from the Board of Trade"], and insert instead thereof the words "Ministry of Transport."

After the word "and" ["until a Report from the Board of Trade and"] insert the words "in the case of any Bill relating to the generation of electricity for supply to persons or bodies other than the Promoters from."

Leave out the words "Board of Trade" ["Report of the Board of Trade"], and insert instead thereof the words "Ministry of Transport."—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]

Oral Answers to Questions

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

Dependants' Pension

asked the Minister of Pensions if he will state what pensions the dependants of the men killed in the recent alleged mutiny by sections of the Connaught Rangers in India are entitled to receive?

The dependant of any soldier who was killed while in the performance of military duty during the alleged mutiny would be admissible to the benefits of the Royal Pensions Warrant, provided that the soldier's death were not caused by his serious negligence or misconduct.

Ex-Service Men

Persecution (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if anything can be done to assist such ex-service men now resident in Ireland as are subjected to persecution in that country to find refuge and employment in this country?

All suitable available employment in Government Departments and on public works is allotted to ex-service men, and every effort is made by the Government to provide them with suitable employment. The suggestion contained in the last part of the question is not a practical one.

Does that apply to the Catholic workmen who have been driven out of the shipyards in Belfast?

Will the right hon. Gentleman now turn his attention to the Local War Pensions Committees who are not employing the number of ex-service men they ought, and will he see that where women are employed ex-service men will be given the preference?

Irish Land Commission

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that in February, 1919, six assistant clerks of the Irish Land Commission, with no military service, were promoted to second division clerkships, notwithstanding the fact that there were 15 assistant clerks serving in His Majesty's Forces who were senior to these clerks; whether three ex-service clerks were promoted in March, 1920; and will he state whether ex-service assistant clerks were promoted to fill the six second division clerkships which were vacant in May, 1920?

The Land Commission inform me that six vacancies in the second division staff of their office required to be filled in July, 1918, and the names then sent forward for promotion were necessarily those of non-service men. These promotions were completed in February, 1919. The three assistant clerks promoted to the second division in March, 1920, were all ex-service men. As my hon. and gallant Friend is, no doubt, aware, the Civil Service is being reorganised, and no further appointments are now being made to the Second Division.

Does that not mean that fifteen senior men serving their country were passed over and men who had not served their country were promoted over their heads?

The figures I have given are those supplied by the Land Commission, and only six were dealt with by me.

Leaving bygones to be bygones, will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that in the future in promotion ex-service men will get their turn?

Travelling Concessions

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the French Government has introduced a law granting all French soldiers wounded in the War certain travelling concessions; and whether he will exclude from the payment of the increase in railway fares all those ex-service men in receipt of total disability pensions, especially in view of the fact that the pension rate has not increased since September last, though the cost of living has substantially risen?

I have been asked to take this question. I was not aware of the fact mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend. The cost of any concessions in railway travelling must ultimately fall on other users. I do not think the method suggested is the most suitable way of dealing with the class of case mentioned. The consideration which we all wish to give to wounded men ought to be direct and ascertainable, and not concealed in indirect benefits given at the expense of the rest of the community. The Ministry of Transport is charged with dealing with railways on a commercial basis.

May I have the support of the Minister of Transport in urging upon the Prime Minister the need of increased disability pensions for disabled men?

Ireland

Police (Reprisals)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has received any report of the alleged reprisals by members of the Royal Irish Constabulary against Tuam and other towns in Ireland; and what action is he taking or proposes to take?

I am not yet in a position to add anything to the reply given on Thursday last to the question asked on this subject by my hon. and gallant Friend.

How is it that last week the right hon. Gentleman was unable to say anything, and that he is unable to say anything this week? Why can he say nothing in view of the very important measure that is coming up for discussion to-day?

Every effort is being made to get the information asked for by the hon. and gallant Gentleman.

Why is it that the occurrence of a month ago, which was of a very serious nature, has not been dealt with in any way by the Government?

Coast Stations (Raids)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether raids have recently been made upon the lighthouse at Mizen Head and the coastguard station at Rosslare by Irish anarchists; whether the stores and gear purloined were only those necessary to ensure the safety of ocean-going steamship traffic chiefly between Europe and America; whether he can take steps to ensure that the fact that these raids are being carried out by Irish Bolshevik anarchists can be made known in America so as to avoid endangering innocent lives; and can steps be taken, by the ruthless exercise of military force, to protect such institutions which only exist for the purpose of safeguarding life at sea?

I have been asked to reply to this question. Raids were made on Mizen Head fog signal station and on Rosslare coast guard station on the morning of the 31st July. The stores taken from the fog signal station were for the purposes stated in the question. The stores at the coast guard station, though not used for the purpose of ensuring the safety of ocean-going traffic, are used for safeguarding life at sea, in that they are employed in connection with the lifeboat station and life-saving apparatus.

The answer to the third part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the last part, this is a matter for the Irish Government, and is, I know, engaging their serious attention.

Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman give an assurance that everything possible is being done to put these places in a state of defence?

I have just said that the whole matter is engaging the serious attention of the Irish Government. They are looking after it.

ROONEY v. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

asked the Attorney-General for Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the judgment of Mr. Justice Powell, dated the 20th July, 1920, in the case of Rooney v. the Department of Agriculture, awarding the plaintiff the sum of £402 for damages and costs; whether he is aware that the costs have been taxed to the sum of £245 3s. 11d.; that application has been made by the solicitors for the plaintiff to the Chief Crown Solicitors for payment and a reply has been received that the Department has no fund to meet the amounts; whether that is so; and, if not, will he give directions for immediate payment?

The answer to the first and second parts of the question is in the affirmative. I have seen the correspondence referred to, and there is no letter to the effect mentioned in the question.

Will the right hon. Gentleman reply to the last part of my question? Will he give directions for immediate payment?

I will communicate at once with the Chief Crown Solicitor on the subject.

Vatican (Attitude to Outrages)

41 & 42.

asked the Prime Minister (1) whether the cardinal, archbishops, and bishops of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland are the representatives of the Vatican; in view of the knowledge in the possession of the Vatican as to the organised murder campaign in Ireland, whether he can state what action the Vatican has taken, or is taking, to cause these terrible excesses to be denounced by its representatives in Ireland and to assist the cause of justice;

(2) whether he can make any statement as to the official communications or pourparlers with the Vatican in regard to Ireland; and on what date the Vatican may be deemed to have had full knowledge supplied to it by the British Government of the organised murder campaign in Ireland and of the failure of its representatives in Ireland to denounce that campaign and such terrorist methods as are not in accord with doctrines held by all Christian churches and peoples?

I cannot give the information asked for by my hon. Friend, but I am glad to say that these murders have recently been strongly denounced by some members of the Catholic Hierarchy in Ireland.

Government (Prime Minister's Offer)

asked the Prime Minister whether, as the outcome of his recent interview with, and speech to, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) he has received any answer to his invitation to the authorised representatives of Sinn Fein to put forward a scheme for the better government of Ireland?

The hon. Member's question is based on a misapprehension. What I did was to express my readiness to discuss the situation with any body which could speak for Ireland.

May I ask why, when the hon. Member for East Mayo said he was prepared to accept Cuban Home Rule for Ireland, the right hon. Gentleman, in answer to a question of mine, said he would not consider it for a moment?

The condition I laid down on behalf of the Government was this: I said we would discuss anything within certain definite limitations, and one of the governing limitations was that there should be nothing in the nature of secession. Cuban Home Rule is the setting up of an independent Republic in Cuba, and, therefore, it is certainly not within the conditions.

Did not the Lord Chancellor in the House of Lords make B, speech in opposition to the Dominion Home Rule Bill?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the hon. Member for East Mayo has been violently attacked——

Flax (Export Restrictions)

asked the President of the Board of Trade what are the existing restrictions on the export of flax from Ireland; what is 4he reason for retaining them; how soon it is intended to remove them; and whether he is aware that, so long as they remain in force, the forthcoming decontrol of the 1920 Irish flax crop will be entirely illusory?

The export of raw flax is prohibited from the United Kingdom, including Ireland, the purpose of the prohibition being to retain in this country the limited supplies of raw material available for the flax spinning industry. The question of the desirability of removing the prohibition is under consideration, and I hope it may be possible to remove it at an early date. As regards the last part of the question, the control of Irish flax hitherto in operation involved the requisitioning of the crop at a fixed price; the removal of the control will give the growers the advantage of such competition for supplies as there may be amongst consumers in the United Kingdom.

Dominion Home Rule

asked ( by Private Notice ) the Prime Minister whether he received a deputation of Irish Unionists, headed by Sir Stanley Harrington, at his house yesterday, 4th August; whether the question of Dominion Home Rule was discussed as a remedy for the present situation; and whether, in view of the serious measure standing on the Order Paper for discussion to-day, he will make a statement on the Government's policy towards Dominion Home Rule for Ireland?

The answer to the first part of the question is that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House and I received a deputation of Irish Unionists; to the second, that the suggestion of Dominion Home Rule, with important reservations, was made to me by the deputation; and to the last part, that I can add nothing to what I have already said.

May I a sir the Prime Minister if he is going to intervene in the Debate to-day; and, if not, in view of the Bill that is going through the House, surely we can have some statement of the intentions of the Government, more especially in face of the fact that this deputation shows a varying of Irish opinion—that is, of responsible Irish opinion?

I propose to take part in the discussion on the Second Reading of the Bill (Restoration of Order).

Questions

Mandated Territories (Oilfields)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether representations have been received from the United States Government with regard to equal rights for United States citizens in the development of the oil-fields in mandated territories; if so, what reply has been made; and whether papers will be laid?

Friendly communications have been received from the United States Government on the subject, and the matter is under consideration, but I cannot at present say whether any papers will be laid.

Russia

Austrian Prisoners (Repatriation)

asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there has been any interference by His Majesty's Government in the arrangements made by the Austrian Government with the Russian Soviet Government as to the repatriation of prisoners?

The answer is in the negative. The Convention with the Soviet Government was signed without the knowledge of His Majesty's Government. It appears from the text, now received, that certain Clauses involve infractions of the Treaty of Peace, and this point is receiving the attention of the Allied Governments.

Has His Majesty's Government protested in any way against this admirable arrangement?

British Prisoners, Baku

asked the Prime Minister whether he can give any information with regard to the officers and men of the Royal Navy held prisoners at Baku; whether they are in the hands of the 11th Bolshevik Army; and, if so, why Krassin, Kameneff, and their followers are allowed to retain their freedom in this country?

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can give, to relieve the anxiety of relatives, information as to the condition of naval prisoners at Baku; and what prospect there is of their early release?

I supplied the latest information on this subject to the House on Monday in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. Ronald McNeill).

The Noble Lord cannot have in mind the answer I gave on Monday. That was that the release of air prisoners will be a necessary preliminary to the resumption of discussions with Russian Trade Delegation.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, if he can give, to relieve the anxiety of relatives, information as to the condition of naval prisoners at Baku; and what prospect there is of their early release?

Then can the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister say whether the naval prisoners there are being treated humanely, and can he give any information to relieve the anxiety of the relatives who are gravely anxious as to the treatment and safety?

I do not think the right hon. Gentleman was here on Monday when I gave the latest information which, I thought, was rather hopeful. I cannot reproduce it at this present moment, but I can send the right hon. Gentleman a copy of it.

Did M. Krassin say anything at the meeting with the Prime Minister yesterday?

League of Nations Covenant

asked the Prime Minister whether the Covenant of the League of Nations has been officially communicated to the Soviet Government of Russia; and, if not, when it will be so communicated?

I do not think that the Covenant of the League of Nations has been officially communicated to the Soviet Government of Russia, but 1 am enquiring of the Secretary to the Council who is now at St. Sebastian.

Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider whether it should be so communicated?

I am not at all sure about that. The Council of the League of Nations were anxious to send a delegation to Russia, and I do not think the Soviet Government had the same affection for the League of Nations as the hon. Gentleman has.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the objection taken by the Soviet Government to action pro- posed to be taken under the name of the League of Nations was that they had not been invited to participate in its deliberations; and that they objected to a few great Powers masquerading as a League of Nations?

I do not think they stated that. That was not their objection. Their objection was that there were people on the League of Nations they did not like.

Was not their objection due to the fact that the Government refused to refer the dispute with Poland to the League as long as they thought Poland was going to win?

What their objections may be I do not know. All I know is that they do object.

Is not the objection of the Soviet Government to the League of Nations a matter to be deplored and not a matter to be exacerbated.

I agree with the rebuke my hon. Friend administers to hon. Gentlemen opposite.

Questions

Royal College of Art

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the Royal College of Art is a highly specialised school founded for, and devoted to, the study and advancement of the industrial arts in this country; whether he is aware that a strong feeling exists amongst those interested in the success of this college that the principal of this college should have a close knowledge and first-hand experience of the schools of art of the country and of their problems and difficulties both from the educational and administrative sides; whether the newly appointed principal of this college was ever and, if so, for how long a master of any school of art; and what knowledge has he got of artistic manufactures in textiles, pottery, silversmithing, metal work, or lace?

In answer to the first part of the question, I may refer the hon. and learned Member to the terms of the published prospectus of the Royal College of Art. In appointing Professor Rothenstein to be principal of the college, I took full account of the feeling to which the hon. and learned Member alludes in the second part of his question. As regards the third and fourth parts of his question, I may refer him to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Aberdare on the 13th July.

Would my right hon. Friend answer specifically the last two questions, which were not answered on the last occasion, namely, whether this gentleman, Professor Rothenstein, has ever been the master of a school of art and what knowledge he has?

It is perfectly true that he has not been the master of a school of art, but after very carefully considering the matter I came to the conclusion that this was the best appointment I could make in the interests of the school.

Workmen's Compensation Act

asked the Home Secretary whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill to amend the Acts dealing with workmen's compensation; and, if so, when?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on the 27th of last month to a similar question by the hon. Member for the Smethwick Division. It is the intention of the Government to introduce legislation as soon as practicable, but I am not in a position at present to fix a date.

Railway Rolling Stock (German Competition)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that British firms recently tendered for rolling stock to the Belgian State Railway, the lowest British tender being £725, and that, owing to the depreciated mark, German firms secured the contract at approximately half this figure; that the State Railway in Czecho-Slovakia are inviting tenders for 4,000 wagons; and that the lowest British price is £625 and the German price about half this figure; whether the German Government have fulfilled all their obligations as to rolling stock under the Treaty of Versailles; and whether he will take steps to stop this competition until they have done so?

I have no information, as to the facts stated in this question, but I am sending a copy of the question to the British Delegate on the Reparation Commission.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the effect of German competition on the exchange, which has gone down so extensively?

May I ask whether his attention has been called to the fall of the sterling exchange in America, in Germany, and in France?

Yes. That, however, is certainly not attributable to German competition, but to facts of a much more serious character.

Dr. Mannix

asked the Prime Minister how it is proposed to deal with Archbishop Mannix on arrival in this country or in Ireland; and will it be possible to avoid any question of martyrdom in the interest of Irish anarchists involved by a possible arrest by shipping him back to Australia?

The decision of the Government is that Archbishop Mannix shall not be allowed to land in Ireland. Such steps will be taken as may prove necessary to render this decision effective.

Would it not be in the interests of this country that Archbishop Mannix should be sent to Ireland?

Mesopotamia

British Casualties

May I ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can give the House any information with regard to the alarming news of casualties in Mesopotamia?

I anticipated that my right hon. Friend might wish for some information on this subject, and I have brought down all that is at present in our possession. On 24th July the Commander at Hillah, a post south of Baghdad, and between that place and Basra, sent forward to a point about 6 miles further on the road a small column of three companies of Manchesters, one company of Pioneers, one squadron of cavalry, and a battery of field artillery, in the hope of preventing the spread of disaffection northward.

The column reached its destination. I understand that on the way back to Hillah it was attacked. The actual events are unknown, but the force returned to Hillah with the following losses:-— Killed: British officers, 2; other ranks, 10; Indian officer, 1; other ranks, 7. Wounded: British officers, 4; other ranks, 22; Indian officers, 2; other ranks, 32. Wounded and missing: British, one officer; other ranks, 6. Missing: British, 1 officer; other ranks, 199; Indian: 1 officer, 81 other ranks. Thirty transport drivers were lost, and 260 horses, mules and ponies were killed and wounded. One field gun, 7 ammunition wagons, 12 Lewis guns, and 89 transport carts were lost. I am at present uncertain as to the fate of the 280 British and Indian officers and men who are missing, but I think it altogether premature, and not warranted by the facts, to assume that they have been killed. I cannot say more at the present time, but we are seeking "information by telegraph, and expect it as early as possible. The impression, however, I have derived from those who are watching events there is, that it is very unlikely that a massacre of those missing has taken place.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state how many of these casualties belong to the Manchester Regiment?

Practically all the British casualties are in the Manchester Regiment. They are approximately 250.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what Indian regiments were engaged?

Has the right hon. Gentleman any information as to the temperature at the time of this attack, and is it not possible these may largely be heat casualties?

Yes. We have no right to assume the worst at this stage. The heat in Mesopotamia at the present time is overpowering.

It appears to have been a vigorously pressed home attack on a rearguard or retiring force.

Oil

asked the Prime Minister whether he will explain what is exactly meant by Articles 7 and 8 of the Memorandum of Agreement between France and England, dated 24th April, 1920, and how they are consistent with the principle which he has laid down that the whole of the property in the oil in Mesopotamia will belong to the Arab State, subject to any arrangements which were made before the war with Turkey?

I would refer my hon. Friend to answers which I gave on this subject on 28th June, when I explained that the Arab State would receive a return on the whole of the oil won. There is nothing in paragraphs 7 and 8 of the Anglo-French Agreement inconsistent with this statement, or with the full enjoyment by the Arab State of the benefits of ownership of the fields. The right of the French Government to purchase oil at market rates or to participate in a developing company which would pay royalty to the Arab State will not in any way prejudice the latter's position.

Bread Subsidy

asked the Prime Minister whether he will state the intentions of the Government with reference to the continuance of or withdrawal of the bread subsidy at the end of the present harvest?

I cannot at present add anything to the reply which I gave yesterday to my hon. Friend the Member for Kennington.

Russia and Poland

Critical Situation

Statement by Prime Minister

asked the Prime Minister which Governments have been or will be invited to attend the proposed conference in London with the Russian representatives; whether the German Government will be permitted to send a representative; whether trade with Russia will be prohibited during the sittings of the conference; and whether a reply to the invitation sent by His Majesty's Government to this conference has been received from the Russian Government?

asked the Prime Minister whether, at the forthcoming London conference with the Soviet Government, the representative or representatives of this country will bring forward the question of Russia's admittance to the League of Nations?

asked the Prime Minister whether any news has been received from Poland as to the Armistice terms; and whether any protest has been made or received as to the persecution of the Reds in Poland by General Haller's White Guards?

( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether he will re-affirm his pledge given on the 21st July that the House of Commons should be consulted before any British intervention takes place on behalf of Poland?

The House will remember that on 29th July we sent to Moscow the reply to the Soviet proposal for a London Conference which had been agreed at Boulogne. To this telegram we have had, as yet, no reply. I may say that we have just received a wire, stating that a telegram has come to M. Kameneff, and that he will communicate it. What is the character of the reply I do not know. I can only give the information up to date. But on Tuesday a wireless Press message was sent out from Moscow stating that when the two Armistice delegations met at Baranovichi, the Soviet delegates declared that the Polish Delegation must be empowered not only to conclude an Armistice, but also the fundamental conditions of peace, and suggested that these powers should be obtained by telegraph. The Polish delegates, however, decided that they had to return to Warsaw in order to submit the questions to the Polish Government.

Upon receipt of this message, the British Government immediately sent the following telegram to M. Tchitcherin:

Telegram ( en clair ) to British Consul (Reval) Foreign Office, 3rd August, 1920.

Urgent.

Following for Tchitcherin.

No reply has yet been received to the message which was sent to the Soviet authorities by the British Government, after consultation with their Allies, as far back as 29th July last, proposing a Conference at London, the essential object of which should be the re-establishment of peace in Europe, and in the first place between Poland and Russia. Meanwhile a wireless Press message has just come from Moscow, stating that the Soviet Armistice Delegation had insisted, as the condition of an Armistice, on the Polish Armistice Delegation being empowered also to conclude the fundamental conditions of peace, and that the Polish delegates, not being empowered to do so, have returned to Warsaw.

The Soviet Government should realise that if they insist upon peace conditions being settled between Poland and Russia, to the exclusion of the other Powers, the bases on which it was proposed to conduct negotiations in London will have disappeared, and the project of a Conference falls to the ground. Further, it appears that the Soviet Armies have now advanced far into ethnographic Poland. If advantage be taken of the delays now caused to continue this advance, His Majesty's Government will be driven to the conclusion that it is not the intention of the Soviet Government to respect the liberty and independence of Poland, and the situation contemplated in their telegram to M. Tchitcherin of 20th July will have arisen.

Yesterday the Lord Privy Seal and myself had an interview with Messrs. Kameneff and Krassin at which we made it clear that this refusal to discuss an Armistice unless the Polish Delegation were empowered to settle the fundamental conditions of peace after the Soviet troops had advanced far into ethnographic Poland, and were marching as fast as they could on Warsaw, necessarily raised the suspicion that the Soviet Government was not sincere in its professed desire for peace and in its declaration that it intended to respect the liberty and independence of Poland— a suspicion which was heightened by the long delay in replying to our telegram of 29th July. We further made it clear that the immediate conclusion of an Armistice on fair terms was the only course which would remove that suspicion.

Further, in view of the fact that ethnographical Poland has been invaded, we have taken effective steps to remove the obstacles in the way of the transmission to Poland from Dantzig of military supplies which were detained at that port.

I think, in view of the critical state of the situation, that I had better make no further statement this afternoon; but should unfortunately our suspicions be confirmed, I will make a full statement to the House on Monday as to such further naval or military action which it may be necessary to take.

As the whole project of a Conference has been put in jeopardy by the advance of the Soviet armies in the territories of ethnographical Poland, there is no use in attempting to answer questions as to the composition or scope of the Conference itself.

May I ask whether the alteration in the Russian policy followed the publication of an article in this country by the Secretary of State for War suggesting an armed alliance between ourselves and Germany against Russia?

May I ask, while respecting the right hon. Gentleman's request, whether His Majesty's Government have any objection to Poland being asked to give guarantees against re-arming during the Armistice and re-opening hostilities; and also if he can reply to my question as to whether it is intended to keep up the blockade during the peace negotiations; and whether any steps are being taken to tighten it up now?

I hope it will not be necessary to take steps to tighten the blockade, but that will necessarily depend on the answer which we receive. I do not wish to say anything further.

There is, however, one thing which I would like to add. The best guarantee which Soviet Russia could have against the Armistice being abused, for the purpose of re-arming Poland for offensive purposes, would be to have a fair understanding with the Western Powers. No one can arm Poland except the Great Powers, and an understanding with the? Great Powers will be the best guarantee that the Armistice will not be abused.

In view of the great public anxiety on this most important matter may I ask the right hon. Gentleman, if he is at all in a position so to do, to make a statement to-morrow as well as on Monday?

I do not know what is the communication to which M. Tchitcherin refers in his telegram, which says that "a very urgent telegram was being sent to M. Kameneff." Should there be anything in that telegram to show an important bearing on the situation, I should be ready to place it before the House at the earliest possible moment. I realise the anxiety there must be on the subject.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think it would be of advantage at the moment to make a definite declaration that a free and independent Poland is going to be insisted on by the Powers?

That is in the telegram of 20th July to which I referred in the despatch we sent on Tuesday to M. Tchitcherin.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the suspicions of the Soviet Government are very natural—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no ! "]—particularly in view of the presence of the Secretary of State for War; and will he see that in the arrangements as to Minutes to the Soviet Government allowance is made for that very natural suspicion on the part of people who are-not so trained in diplomacy as the right hon. Gentleman?

That has-really nothing whatever to do with it. The advance of the Russian Army was not due to an article in an English evening newspaper. This advance is either deliberate policy—I hope it is not a deliberate attempt on the part of the Russian militarists to overthrow every effort to make peace. I sincerely hope it is not. But I hope to be in a better position to say so when I see the communication.

asked the Prime Minister whether any pressure at all is being brought either by the Allies or by Great Britain upon Czecho-Slovakia. to assist Poland with men, arms, or munitions against Russia?

With regard to the hon. Member's question, everything depends on the answer we receive from the Bolshevik Government. If it is unsatisfactory, of course, we shall bring pressure to bear on everybody to give the necessary support in the way of getting munitions to Poland.

Does that mean-to say that we shall urge Czechos-Slovakia to go to war, although they are at present at peace with Russia, and is that the Government's policy?

That is not going to war. We do not go to war if we allow the transit of munitions. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about Belgium?"] My hon. Friend has not got even the elements of accuracy. When you either supply or permit the transit of munitions, that does not necessarily mean that you go to war.

Then that is all that the pressure is limited to? In the case of the answer being unsatisfactory from Russia, we can understand from the right hon. Gentleman that there will be no pressure brought to bear on Czechoslovakia or the other border countries to use armed intervention in favour of Poland against Russia?

If the answer is unsatisfactory and it becomes quite clear that the Soviet authorities mean to destroy Poland, I certainly could give no undertaking of that sort.

May we be assured, after? the very ominous statement made by the right hon. Gentleman, the Prime Minister, that no action will be taken by His Majesty's Government to commit us to a new war without the full, open assent of the House of Commons?

I promised to make a statement on Monday, if it is necessary. I hope it will not be necessary. This refers rather to pressure brought to bear by other countries.

Can we understand that Czecho-Slovakia will not be forced against its wish by the great Powers to go to war?

From "what I know of Czecho-Slovakia, it is not likely they will be forced.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel Wedgwood) negotiating on behalf of Soviet Russia in this matter?

Questions

Unemployment

asked the Prime Minister whether there are indications that a period of increasing unemployment is approaching; and, if so, what steps he is taking to deal with the situation?

Experience has shown that a certain amount of seasonal unemployment is to be expected during the winter, but there are indications that additional unemployment, due to other causes, may be expected during the coming months. The matter is engaging the close attention of the Government.

As a matter of fact, the House of Commons has taken the most gigantic step ever taken to deal with the problem of unemployment, and at very considerable expense, by the provision of a great unemployment insurance scheme, the most gigantic measure for dealing with unemployment which has been undertaken, not merely in this country, but in any other country at any other time.

If that be so, what does the right hon. Gentleman mean by saying it is engaging the attention of the Government?

That is only one of the very large measures which have been taken. The fact that it has been done is surely not a cause of complaint, but rather a matter for congratulation to the Government and the House of Commons. We naturally have to think about other methods of providing employment, and we are considering what can be done in that respect.

Spa Conference

asked the Prime Minister whether he will publish, for the information of the House, the text of the Spa agreement on the valuation of ships and the allocation of freights?

The Spa agreement relating to the division between the Allies of the reparations paid and payable by ex-enemy powers could not be published without the consent of all the Allies who are parties thereto. It was decided by the Allies at Spa to publish a short summary, which was communicated to the Press and published by them on the 17th July, and I shall circulate this summary in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Would not the publication of the full text remove all possible misunderstandings?

I am not aware that there are any misunderstandings, except those deliberately created.

May I ask whether at some time or other all these agreements will be published, so that there will be no more of the secret diplomacy which has been deplored in the past?

The following is the promised summary, as signed on behalf of the British Empire, Prance, Italy, Japan, Belgium and Portugal: —

ARTICLE 1 provides that in pursuance of the Treaty of Versailles the sums received from Germany for reparations shall be divided in the following proportions: —

France

52 per cent.

British Empire

22 per cent.

Italy

10 per cent.

Belgium

8 per cent.

Japan and Portugal ¾ of 1 per cent. each.

The remaining 6½ per cent. is reserved for the Serbo-Croat-Slovene State and for Greece, Rumania, and other Powers not signatories of the Agreement.

ARTICLE 2 provides that the aggregate amount received for reparation from Austria-Hungary and Bulgaria, together with amounts that may be received in respect of the liberation of territories belonging to the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, shall be divided: —

( a ) As to half in the proportions mentioned in Article 1.

( b ) As to the other half, Italy shall receive 40 per cent., while 60 per cent. is reserved for Greece, Rumania, and the Serbo-Croat-Slovene State and other Powers entitled to reparations but not signatories of the Agreement.

ARTICLE 3 provides that the Allied Governments shall adopt measures to facilitate, if necessary, the issue by Germany of loans destined for the internal requirements of that country and to the prompt discharge of the German debt to the Allies.

ARTICLE 4 deals in detail with the keeping of accounts by the Reparations Commission.

ARTICLE 5 secures to Belgium her priority of £100,000,000 gold and enumerates the securities affected by such priority. [These securities were mentioned in The Times of 13th July.]

ARTICLE 6 deals with the valuation of ships surrendered under the various Peace Treaties, and provides for the allocation of sums received for the hire of such ships. It deals also with questions outstanding as to the decisions taken by the Belgian Prize Courts. Belgium receives compensation out of the shares of the other Allied Powers.

ARTICLE 7 refers to the Allied cruisers, floating docks, and material handed over under the Protocol of 10th January, 1920, as compensation for the German warships which were sunk.

ARTICLE 8 declares that the same Protocol shall apply to the proceeds of the sale of ships and war material surrendered under the naval clauses of the Treaty, virtually including the proceeds of naval war material sold by the Reparations Commission.

ARTICLE 9 gives Italy an absolutely prior claim to certain specified sums as a set-off to amounts due to her by Austria-Hungary and Bulgaria.

ARTICLE 10 reserves the rights of Poland and declares that this agreement shall not apply to her.

ARTICLE 11 maintains the rights of countries who lent money to Belgium before 11th November, 1918, and makes provision for repayment immediately after satisfaction of the Belgian claim to priority in respect of £100,000,000.

ARTICLE 12 maintains the rights of the Allied Powers to the repayment of credits granted to ex-enemy Powers for the purposes of relief.

ARTICLE 13 reserves the question of fixing the cost of the armies of occupation in Germany on a uniform basis for discussion with the United States of America.

Royal Navy

Provision and Leave Allowance

asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that provision money in the Royal Navy is quite insufficient; and if he can make any statement on the subject, or give any promise that the matter will be considered and an increase made before the House meets again?

I have been asked to reply to this question. It has now been decided to increase the rates of provision and leave allowance to naval ratings from 2s. 1d. to 3s. 6d. per diem, and the necessary orders are being issued accordingly.

Royal Naval Reserve

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the position of the officers on the active list of the Royal Naval Reserve is at present under consideration; if so, whether any decision or decisions have as yet been arrived at as to the future conditions of their service and as to the qualifications of applicants for these commissions; and whether, if the matter still remains under consideration, the views of recognised representatives of these officers are being considered?

This question, together with other questions relating to the Reserves, has been under consideration by a committee on which both the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve were represented. The committee has also had the advantage of learning the views of representative officers of the Reserves, and of duly considering them in framing their Report. This Report is now under consideration-by the Board, but no decisions have yet been reached.

Will my hon. and gallant Friend be able to announce the decision before the Recess?

I am afraid that is impossible. I only saw it myself for the first time this morning, and the other members of the Board have to consider it.

Questions

Consular Service (Aliens)

asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been called to the fact that aliens are still being appointed to responsible positions in the British Consular Service; and if he has considered the advisability of reserving this service to persons of pure British descent and in particular to ex-service officers displaced by the War from their civilian occupations?

No aliens have been or will be appointed to posts in the salaried Consular Service, and aliens are only appointed to posts in the un-salaried service when no suitable British subject is available. With regard to the employment of ex-service officers, I would point out that entry into the salaried Consular Service is now governed by the Civil Service Commission regulations.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the latest appointments is a German with a Portuguese name, who was a British vice-consul during the War, and was strongly suspected of having made use o his official position to assist the enemy in the submarine outrages?

I should be glad to have the facts on which that statement is based. I do not think there is any foundation for it.

If I can substantiate that statement, will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to have an inquiry into the system under which such an appointment is possible?

India

Punjab Disturbances

46 and 47.

asked the Prime Minister (1) in view of the fact that the Secretary of State for India has taken no steps to clear himself of the charges made against him in this House, and publicly in the Press, of having misled the House and suppressed facts concerning" the outbreaks in 1919, what steps the Government propose to take in the matter;

(2) whether his attention has been called to a speech made by the Secretary of State for India at Cambridge on Saturday last, in which he stated that in his administrative work he had the support of his colleagues in a policy which is alike theirs and his; if he will say whether the Government endorse the policy of the Secretary of State in eulogising Mr. Ghandi whilst he was stirring up sedition in India; and whether they are aware that the Secretary of State says he knew no details of the disturbances eight months after the event?

Before these questions are answered, is it in Order, and is there any precedent, for charging it Minister in a question with misleading the House?

I am afraid I cannot answer that question without a considerable amount of research. I have heard charges made that Ministers mislead, and also that unofficial Members mislead. I do not think the word is out of Order.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for India has, of course, the support of his colleagues, and I am surprised that my hon. Friend should think it necessary to put such a question, as otherwise obviously my right hon. Friend would not continue to be a member of the Government. As regards the other statements and insinuations made in the Question, they have been repeatedly dealt with by my right hon. Friend, and I have nothing to add to the answers which he has given.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Secretary of State stated in this House on 23rd June, in regard to the charges made against him of misrepresenting the facts in this House, that he would answer them in Debate, and in view of the fact that the opportunity was given him of answering them and that he did not avail himself of that opportunity, does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the Secretary of State has lost the confidence of a large number of members of this House, and is it not imperative that he should either clear his character or resign?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these attacks on the Secretary of State for India are made because he is a Jew?

House of Commons

Divisions

asked the Prime Minister whether he can have inquiries made as to the voting methods in other Parliaments with a view to obviating the waste of time and energy involved in the present method?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to Command Paper 907 of 1902, which is the latest information which the Government have on the subject. Unless, however, there is a general desire for further information I do not propose, in view of the expense involved, to call for further reports.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the last two nights over 300 members spent about five hours tramping through the Division lobbies?

This is a very old subject of discussion, and many efforts have been made to save time. A Division used to take a good deal longer than it does now, and I think the hon. Member will find it is very difficult to get any method which is more expeditious than the present one.

Is not tramping through the lobbies the main purpose for which Members come here?

Would it not be better for the comfort, convenience, and dignity of hon. Members if a single question were put from the Chair to clear the whole of the outstanding Supply?

I think my Noble Friend would find there would be most violent protests against that. I can only remember that, when a suggestion of that kind was made in the days when I had the pleasure of sitting on that side, I protested very strongly. That, I think, was the general feeling of the House then, and I think my Noble Friend will find that it is the same now.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that last Monday night some Votes were passed willingly, and other were hotly contested by Divisions?

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of putting three,clerks in the lobbies, as it used to be prior to the War? It takes a greater time now.

I am not sure that that would save very much time. However, if there are any suggestions of that kind, I am certain Mr. Speaker would be only too glad to consider them.

We did consider the whole of that question, and came to the conclusion that the pressure was not in passing the clerks, but in passing the tellers.

Telegraph Rooms

asked the First Commissioner of Works if his attention has been drawn to the unsatisfactory condition of the telegraph rooms of the staff who do the work in connection with this House; and what steps he proposes to take to remedy such a state of things existing within the precincts of the House?

I am aware that the condition of the rooms in question is adversely affected by their close proximity to the boiler house. The matter will be carefully investigated by the Chief Engineer during the Recess, in order to see whether any improvement can be effected.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the room in the pit there is worse than many dog-kennels and stables in this country?

Questions

Middle East (Indian Troops)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the growing feeling in India against the use of native troops -in the various theatres of war in the Middle East; and whether he can give an assurance that, so soon as circumstances will permit, Indian troops will be withdrawn from Turkey, Mesopotamia, Persia, Arabia, and Palestine?

I have no reason to believe that Indians are unduly impatient at the inevitable delay in the return of Indian troops from the Middle East; every effort is being made to relieve those units who have been long away from India, and the answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative.

Open Spaces Bill

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware that sports associations throughout the country are desirous of sending a representative deputation to him to urge the necessity, in the interests of the health and recreation of the people, of the passage of the Open Spaces Bill; and whether he will receive the deputation at an early date in order to ascertain from them the volume of opinion in favour of the Bill and of its early passage into law?

I doubt whether any useful purpose would be served by receiving a deputation on this subject, but I shall discuss it with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, whose Department is concerned in it, and let the hon. Member know whether it is possible for my right hon. Friend or myself to receive the deputation.

Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)

asked the Lord Privy Seal why the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) Regulations oblige the consumer of wine or beer to pay for goods before delivery and does not permit payment on delivery; why he must send or take his order to the licensed premises and may not give his order to the representative of the vendor when he calls; and why the brewer or wine merchant may not deliver beer or wine by basket or cycle before 12 noon, but is obliged to use a motor vehicle or horse van?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave to this question on Tuesday last.

Would my right hon. Friend not consider whether these temporary Regulations are not lasting a very long time? Is not the time come for restoring some liberty to the subject?

Could not my right hon. Friend say under what Act of Parliament these stupid Regulations are made?

I believe they are in an Act of Parliament, but the stupidity must be a matter of opinion.

National Industrial Conference

asked the Lord Privy Seal when the Industrial Conference will resume its sitting?

I have been asked to answer this question. The National Industrial Conference has not sat for some considerable time, but the Provisional Joint Committee set up by the Conference has, on various occasions, met to consider important industrial questions. The Committee met on the 17th and 28th June last, to consider the provisions of the proposed Hours of Employment Bill. It is anticipated that the Committee will meet again when the trade union side have formulated their proposals in relation to that Bill.

Mandatory Powers (Reports)

asked the Lord Privy Seal on what date each of the mandates which have been conferred on a mandatory Power was so conferred, respectively; and on what date in each case the Annual Report of the mandatory Power under the Covenant of the League of Nations becomes due?

The decision of the Supreme Council relating to the conferment of mandates under the German Treaty was dated 7th May, 1919, and that relating to the mandates under the Turkish Treaty, 26th April, 1920. The date on which the Annual Report in each case will become due has not yet been decided.

Excess Profits Duty

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the estimated amount of Excess Profits Duty payable by the manufacturers of biscuits in the United Kingdom during 1918–19; and what was the tonnage of biscuits produced in respect of which the amount of Excess Profits Duty became payable?

Postcards (Postage Rate)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the proposed raising of the postage of postcards to l½d. is, in the opinion of competent authorities, likely to lead to the surrender of the postcard industry into German hands; whether he is aware that it is computed that upwards of 70,000 traders and workers will be thrown out of employment; whether he is aware that something like 20 per cent. of these men are ex-service men; and whether this matter can be reconsidered?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. I do not think the increase in the postcard rate is likely to have such serious effects upon the picture postcard trade as the hon. Member suggests. At present the cost of dealing with a postcard exceeds the revenue derived from it, and I do not feel justified in subsidising this particular class of communication by continuing permanently a rate which does not defray expenses.

Could not the right hon. Gentleman fix a reduced charge for the picture postcards which contain no writing, but simply the name and address of the sender? Could he say how long it would take him to judge by experience as to whether the increased postage had reduced the traffic?

Land Valuation Departments

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether separate Land Valuation Departments are maintained by the Ministry of Transport, Ministry of Munitions, the Board of Agriculture, and the War Office; whether the Treasury has pointed out that these separate Land Valuation Departments are unnecessary and are a waste of public money; whether separate staffs of architects are maintained at the Ministry of Health, War Office, Admiralty, Air Ministry, Board of Education, and other Departments for work which the Office of Works maintains a separate staff of architects; and what action it is proposed to take to prevent this waste of public money on overlapping and unnecessary staffs?

Further consideration of the question of concentrating in a single Department the valuation work to be done on behalf of the Government and of local authorities has been deferred until the Select Committee en National Expenditure has completed its inquiry into the Valuation Office of the Board of Inland Revenue. In accordance with the conclusions of that Committee, which have just been published (House of Commons Paper 172), I hope to arrange for the transfer to the Inland Revenue Valuation Office of the work hitherto performed by Valuation Staffs attached to other Government Departments. I may, perhaps, be allowed to invite particular attention to the findings of the Committee, which effectually dispose of the ill-informed criticisms to frequently levelled against that office. I doubt whether it would ever be possible or economical to concentrate in a single Department the whole of the building work for which at present various Government Departments are responsible, and the special difficulties of the times have hitherto prevented as large a concentration as I ultimately hope to see.

May I ask if in this Report the Committee is ill-informed and ignorant?

The Committee undertook this inquiry at my request, and for their Report on this subject I am grateful.

Bank Amalgamations

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what bank amalgamations have taken place in this country since the Armistice?

I will circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

National Provincial and Union Bank of England, Ltd.

Bradford District Bank, Ltd.

London County, Westminster, and; Parrs Bank, Ltd.

Nottingham and Nottinghamshire Banking Co., Ltd.

Barclay's Bank, Ltd

Gillett and Co., Banbury.

Barclay's Bank, Ltd

Gillett and Co., Oxford.

Lloyds Bank, Ltd

West Yorkshire Bank, Ltd.

National Provincial and Union Bank, Ltd.

Sheffield Banking Co., Ltd.

Bank of Liverpool and Martin's, Ltd.

Cocks, Biddulph and Co.

Bank of Liverpool and Martin's Ltd

Palatine Bank, Ltd.

Bank of Liverpool and Martin's Ltd

Halifax Commercial Banking Co., Ltd.

National Provincial and Union Bank, Ltd.

Coutts and Co.

In addition, Lloyds Bank, Ltd., acquired 96 per cent. of the capital stock of the London and River Plate Bank and of the National Bank of Scotland, Ltd.; Barclay's Bank carried out arrangements for affiliation with the British Linen Bank and the Union Bank of Manchester, and has offered to acquire the share capital of the Anglo-Egyptian Bank; the London City and Midland Bank arranged a fusion of interests with the Clydesdale Bank; and the Anglo-South American Bank purchased the British Bank of South America. Lloyds Bank has also acquired shares in the National Bank of New Zealand and the British Bank of West Africa.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these huge banking combinations are operating against wholesome, salutary and proper competition, and that they are crushing small people like Juggernauts?

Bank Rate

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will have a White Paper laid upon the Table of the House stating what have been the various results directly or indirectly attributable to the recent rise in the bank rate?

The following is the statement referred to :

Since the Armistice the following: amalgamations have been authorised by the Treasury and the Board of Trade on the advice of the Advisory Committee:

I do not think that the subject matter lends itself to treatment in the way proposed in the question.

London University (New Site)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Senate of the University of London have not accepted the offer of the Government of land at Bloomsbury by the date, 21st July, within which date the President of the-Board of Education insisted that a definite reply must be received; whether the Government now propose to proceed with the purchase of the land in question; if so, what will be the cost; and for what purpose will it be devoted?

The hon. Member has no doubt seen the terms of the Resolution of the Senate of the University which has been published. The Government had hoped that a definite decision would have been reached by the Senate on 21st July on the offer made by the Government on 7th April, and this hope was orally conveyed by my right hon. Friend to the University authorities, but it is not the case that 21st July was irrevocably fixed by him as the final date for the acceptance or rejection of the Government's offer. The Government do not propose to proceed with the purchase of the site unless and until the University accepts the offer. It rests with the vendor of the site to decide whether he can agree to further delay. If he is not able to agree to do so, the University will have lost what the Government consider a valuable opportunity.

Deportation of Poles

asked the Home Secretary the number of men? deported to Poland during the last three months, and the number deported without trial?

Thirteen Poles were deported to Poland between 1st May and 1st August. Of these, 12 had been convicted of offences against the law of this country, and the thirteenth was a woman, who was destitute, and wished to join her husband in Poland.

British East Africa

asked the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the flogging and torture of natives in Nduru, British East Africa; whether, in one case, the torture was so severe that, according to Dr. Henderson, fat had been crushed out of the muscles; whether, in another case, the native died from the torture and flogging; and if he will call for, and lay upon the Table of the House, a full Report of the whole of these incidents?

I have no information about the incidents alleged to have occurred at Ruiru beyond the reports in the local press of the hearing before the magistrate. The accused has been committed for trial in the High Court, and, until the hearing is complete, it is clearly impossible for the Secretary of State to take the matter up. In the meantime, the Governor is being directed to furnish a full Report as soon as he is in a position to do so.

Imperial Hotel, Eastbourne

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is yet in a position to state why the Registrar of Companies has refused to register the Imperial Hotel, Eastbourne, Limited; and if he has been able to arrange for this to be done forthwith, seeing that other companies have been registered with the prefix Imperial?

I regret that I cannot add anything to the answers which I have previously given to my hon. Friend upon this matter. Two companies have in recent times been registered with the prefix Imperial, but in these cases there were exceptional circumstances. I venture to suggest to my hon. Friend that, while keeping the name Imperial for the hotel—which requires no permission—some other name should be given to the company.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that in cases of the kind, where some companies are allowed to use the title. "Imperial" and others are not, that it would be much better to make a hard and fast rule one way or the other?

My hon. Friend knows that it is only in recent times that the use of the word "Imperial" in relation to public companies has been denied.

Will the right hon. Gentleman further inquire into this particular case, and, if possible, grant the request; then, if necessary, make a definite order on the subject one way or the other?

Sinn Fein Clubs (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland if his attention has been called to the activity in Lanarkshire of Sinn Fein clubs in raising money in support of the Munitions of War Fund in Dublin; and what steps he proposes to take to suppress the propaganda and activities of these clubs in industrial centres in Scotland?

I am aware that Sinn Fein clubs exist in Lanarkshire, and that in some cases money has been contributed by these clubs to a fund in aid of the Irish railway workers who refuse to handle munitions of war. My hon. Friend may rest assured that proceedings will be taken in any cases of Sinn Fein activity which involve a breach of the law.

Does it not involve a breach of the law to raise money for an organisation which has been declared illegal in Ireland? Why, therefore, has no prosecution taken place?

It does not necessarily involve a breach of the law; it may in certain cases.

Surely, I press the right hon. Gentleman to say—would it not be illegal for me to ask for money to aid an organisation which is by Proclamation declared to be illegal?

Female Agricultural Labour, Yorkshire

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will consider, with a view to remedial action, the disadvantageous position in which the Yorkshire farmers now find themselves, since prices for their produce are only the average prices, whereas their female labour costs are by law 43 per cent. in excess of those in other countries?

I have been asked to answer this question on behalf of the Ministry of Agriculture. The present minimum rate of wages for female workers in Yorkshire was fixed by the Agricultural Wages Board on the recommendation of the District Wages Committee for that county. Both employers and workpeople are represented on this Committee, and it is to be assumed that the recommendation was made after due consideration of all conditions affecting the agricultural industry in the county. The Ministry is not in a position to take any action in the matter.

French Consulate

( by Private Notice ) asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if it is correct that the French Consulate has raised the charge for visa from 8s. to 20s.; if he has any information that the Belgian Consulate is considering a similar step; and if, in view of the extreme hardship that this involves to bereaved parents wishing to visit the graves of their sons, he will make immediate representations to those Gov- ernments concerned, asking them to return to the former fees in such cases?

It is the fact that the French Authorities in this country are now charging £1 for French visas on British passports, but no official notification has been received from the French Government on the subject. The matter has been taken up with the French Authorities, who are being asked to reduce these charges in the case of persons desirous of paying visits to the graves of relatives or wishing to make single journeys or pass in transit through French territory. No information has been received of the intention of the Belgian Authorities to make similar increases in their visa charges. No charge is made by His Majesty's Consular officers in France and Belgium for visaing the passports of British subjects coming to this country, but in the case of foreigners coming to this country the charge is 10s. for a single journey and £1 for a visa valid for any number of journeys for one year. I am sending to the hon. Gentleman the latest paper prepared by the Passport Office showing the charges made for visas by foreign consulates in London, which are, however, subject to alteration from time to time.

Is the hon. Gentleman able to say whether or not the charge for visas to passports to French and Belgian subjects has been increased by His Majesty's Government; and, if so, whether the action of the French and Belgian Governments is not due to the fact that His Majesty's Government have raised the charges?

No; I have given my hon. and learned Friend the facts as they are. I will send him a copy of the paper containing the whole explanation.

I want to know whether His Majesty's Government has raised the charges; and, if so, whether or not French action is in consequence of that action? Is it not to the interest of both countries that there shall be as free an interchange as possible of the subjects?

I think there is a great deal to be said as to the desir- ability of reducing these charges on both sides.

Business of the House

Can the Leader of the House give us the usual information as to business next week?

That has already been given in my statement on Monday last. We shall take on Monday the Bills on the Order Paper.

On Tuesday and Wednesday we shall take the Consolidated Fund Bill.

To-night we propose to take the Report stage of the Telegraph (Money) Bill, the Report stage of the Post Office and Telegraph Bill, the Pensions (Increase) Bill, the Census (Ireland) Bill, Second Reading, and the Census (Expenses) Resolution in Committee.

Has any agreement been come to about Order No. 17 (Duplicands of Feu-duties—Scotland—Bill)?

We are going to star that Order.

SHOPS (EARLY CLOSING) (No. 2) BILL

Reported, with an Amendment, from Standing Committee E.

Report to lie upon the Table and to be printed. [No. 181.]

Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 181.]

Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration To-morrow.

Public Petitions Committee

Second Report brought up, and read;

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Public Accounts Committee

Third Report brought up, and read;

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 182.]

Bills Reported

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Chesterfield Extension) Bill [ Lords ],

Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.

Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (New Windsor Extension) Bill [ Lords ],

Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.

Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill,

Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.

Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.

Royal Bank of Scotland Bill [ Lords ],

Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.

Bill to be read the Third time.

Manchester Ship Canal Bill [ Lords ],

Workington Harbour and Dock Bill [ Lords ],

Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

National Expenditure

Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence, brought up, and read;

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 183.]

Orders of the Day

Restoration of Order in Ireland Bill (Allocation of Time)

rose to move the Resolution as to allocation of time.

I wish to raise a point of Order relating to the Bill which is now before the House, and I hope I shall make my point as briefly and as clearly as possible. It relates to the framing, and the way in which the Bill is cast. Hon. Members will notice that there are only two Clauses in the Bill, and the whole of the operative part of the Bill is in Clause 1. The practice of this House relating to measures of this kind, and especially those relating to the liberty of the subject, has always been to define as clearly and shortly as possible how far the Executive, supported by the. House of Commons, proposed to go in the limitation or entire withdrawal of the liberty of the subject. On that point, therefore, it naturally arises that when such measures are submitted to this House they should define the position as clearly as possible, so that not only will the Executive but the citizens will know, by a perusal of the statute, exactly and as clearly as possible how they stand. If I cannot succeed in getting a definite ruling, I hope to be able to obtain an expression of opinion from you, Mr. Speaker, as to the way in which this measure is drawn.

Sub-section (1) confers the general powers. Sub-section (2) takes another clean-cut position, and goes so far as to hand over to courts-martial questions of life and death without either public trial, or the usual methods of criminal procedure. Sub-section (3) imposes very wide and sweeping powers with regard to courts of summary jurisdiction, coroners' courts, and the removal of courthouses at the discretion of the Executive, and other ancillary powers. I think that ought to come under a separate Clause by itself. The Bill proposes to take away trial by jury. This has nothing to do with the criminal procedure under the Bill, and an entirely separate power is proposed to be given in regard to the retention of grants from the Treasury to the local bodies. What I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, is that you may give some guidance to the Executive, and some assistance to hon. Members of this House in discussing this Measure, and I ask you to say that this procedure of lumping together totally different subjects in one Clause should not really be allowed to proceed any further.

4.0 P.M.

No question of order arises with regard to this. I understand the right hon. Gentleman asks for an expression of my opinion as to the drafting of this Bill. I do not know that my opinion on this is of any value. I have an opinion on these matters, but the House naturally is not guided by me in matters of that kind. Everybody is entitled, to draft a Bill in his own particular manner. The tendency, I think, of recent years, since I have been in the House, has been to put more matters into one Clause and to have fewer Clauses in a Bill. That is purely a matter of taste. What I have to think of is to see that the House is not placed at any disadvantage or embarrassed in any way by the manner in which the Bill is drawn. I do not think the House is embarrassed or placed in any difficulty in the case of this Bill. It is open to the House to move any Amendment to the Sub-clauses of the original Clause. I have been reminded that years ago, in 1832, in 1834 and in 1868, the House took upon itself to divide a Clause. That was done in Committee by a Motion. That procedure is now almost' if not quite obsolete, but it is open to the House if it wishes to correct what it considers to be the inelegance of the draughtsman. I am afraid I cannot say more.

I beg to move,

"That the proceedings on the Second Reading of the Restoration of Order in Ireland Bill (hereinafter referred to as 'the-Bill'), if not previously brought to a conclusion, shall be brought to a conclusion at Eleven o'clock this day, or at the expiration of four hours from the commencement of the proceedings thereon, whichever may be the later.

The proceedings on the remaining stages of the Bill shall be taken To-morrow, and, if not previously brought to a conclusion, shall be brought to a conclusion at 6 p.m. on that day.

For the purpose of bringing to a conclusion any proceedings which are to be brought to a conclusion, the Chairman or Mr. Speaker shall, at the said time, put forthwith the Question on any Amendment or Motion already proposed from the Chair, and shall next proceed successively to put forthwith the Question on any Amendments, new Clauses, or Schedules moved by the Government, but no other Amendments, new Clauses, or Schedules, and on any Question necessary to dispose of the stage of the Bill then in progress, and if that stage is the Committee stage of the Bill the Chairman shall report the Bill to the House without Question put, and thereafter Mr. Speaker shall next proceed successively to put forthwith the Question on any other questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded, including the Question on Amendments or Schedules moved on the Report stage by the Government, but no other Amendments or Schedules.

No Motion for an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill, and no dilatory Motion on the Bill, nor Motion to re-commit the Bill, nor Motion to postpone a Clause, nor Motion that the Chairman do report progress or do leave the Chair, shall be received unless moved by the Government, and the Question on such Motion, if moved by the Government, shall be put forthwith without any debate."

This is the first time since the War that it has been necessary to propose any guillotine Resolution of any kind, and that is, to a certain extent, due to the co-operation of the House of Commons itself. I venture to regret it should be necessary to move such a Resolution to-night. Nothing but necessity can justify it.

Perhaps my hon. Friend will allow me to make my speech. Nothing but necessity can justify it. In my opinion necessity is a complete justification. I do not put the necessity on the ground of the stage of the Session at which we have arrived. I am quite certain that Members of the House would be ready to sit quite indefinitely if they could do any good by taking that course. I do not think they would do any good. On the contrary, I think it would do harm. If this Bill be necessary nothing could be worse or more offensive, in my judgment, both to the House of Commons and to the country than that hour after hour, and perhaps day after day, should be spent by possibly a small minority in obstructive tactics on a Measure of this kind. That would be a real degradation of the House of Commons, and, in my view, if the Bill be necessary the House of Commons best shows its dignity and best preserves its record by carrying it in the shortest possible amount of time that our rules of procedure allow.

In our opinion, the time in this Resolution is adequate for those who accept the principle of the Bill to make what suggestions for improvement they may think necessary. It is not adequate for the exercise of all the arts of Parliamentary skill in delaying a Measure of this kind, and we do not intend it should be adequate for that purpose. Of course, old Members of the House are well aware of the kind of speeches always made on guillotine Resolutions. I have never before carried a Resolution of this kind, but I have taken part in a great many, and if it were necessary I could give the House samples of the kind of arguments that have been used. I shall take all that for granted, remarking merely that it is quite impossible anything could be said to-day stronger than has been said by right hon. Friends on both Benches with regard to Resolutions of this kind in the past.

The real question, the only question, which interests the House or the country is whether this Bill is necessary, and will serve the purpose for which we are introducing it. In- regard to that, I am quite sure that there is no difference of opinion, either in the House of Commons or in the country. The conditions in Ireland are well known. Apart altogether from the conspiracy to murder—about which I shall say something in a few minutes, a conspiracy which for its tragedy, cruelty, and cowardice is as bad as or worse than anything that has ever happened in any country—apart from that, the ordinary civil law and trial by jury—and this applies to civil as well as to criminal cases—has broken down in a large part of Ireland, and, if conditions of civilised society are to be maintained some substitute must be found for it.

Take one example. In three important districts—Cork, Waterford, and Galway—the Assizes could not be held, because of the absence of jurors through intimidation. Bad as that condition is now, it must inevitably become worse, for a great many of the local authorities whose duty it is to prepare the list of jurors have stated that they do not intend to carry out any such function in the future. For that reason alone it is necessary to have some form of justice in Ireland. Perhaps it would be right to give the House some indication of the state of Ireland, and to show therefore the need for a Measure of this kind. The following is a summary of some of the outrages committed during the five weeks ending the 31st July last: Court houses destroyed, 17; police barracks destroyed, 85; raids on mails, 114. These are outrages, without reference to murder.

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman can state the number of arrests that have been made, in comparison with the number of offences committed?

No, I cannot. Some arrests have been made, some arrests for murder, and I am sorry to say it is one of the main reasons for this Bill that, up till now, not one single conviction has been obtained for all the murders which have taken place in Ireland. Now I come to the murders which have taken place. Since the beginning of last year up to the 31st July, 73 policemen have been killed and 119 have been wounded. Five soldiers have been killed and 37 have been wounded. Eighteen civilians have been killed. Or, if we take what has happened in the five weeks ending the 31st July last, the following are the figures: 15 policemen killed, 34 wounded, and 20 fired at, but not wounded. Military killed, 4; wounded, 33; and fired at but not wounded, 13. Civilians killed, 3; wounded, 6. I said that this murderous conspiracy was as bad as or worse than anything that had ever happened in any country, both on account of its brutality and its cowardice. I can imagine nothing which is not only more brutal, but more cowardly than for men with arms concealed to shoot policemen in the back—men of their own race and creed who are only doing their duty—to shoot them in the back, and quietly slip away. If there be one bright spot, and there are very few, in this picture, it is this, that in spite of the conditions under which these policemen live, conditions which are far worse than ever occur on any battlefield—in spite of these conditions, the Irish Constabulary have still shown a courage and a loyalty for which we cannot be too grateful.

The cowardice appears in another way, and that is the kind of excuse which is made for these murders. They say Ire- land is at war, that there is an army of occupation! If anyone puts forward that excuse, what does it mean? What is the position when one side commits these murders, and the other side does not act in the same way? Everyone knows that if the British Government chose to regard Ireland as an enemy country occupied by our troops, we would be driven to do what has been done always in similar circumstances, and it would be found that these outrages are not committed with that impunity which makes them so cowardly to-day. No one, I think, will for a moment question the horror of all this. If we believed that impunity represented the feeling of the Irish people, it would be indeed deplorable. But apart from all this, the very fact that an attempt is made to describe murder by another name, and to make excuses for it as if it were political action, must demoralise the whole life of any country where such excuses can be made. I am glad to say, as indeed I would expect—for I cannot think that anybody professing to be followers of the Christian religion would take another view—I am glad to say that there are signs that there are some in the Catholic Church in Ireland who are throwing their weight in earnest to put an end to this terrible state of things.

There is another consideration. Unless I entirely misjudge the feelings of my countrymen, I believe at this moment there is throughout the length and breadth of Great Britain a smouldering fire of resentment against what is happening in Ireland which could very easily be fanned into a devouring flame, which would make what has never happened before, thank God, which would make real hostility on the part of the people of Great Britain towards their fellow Irish countrymen. It is to the interest of everyone to put an end to that. I do not believe for a moment that these murders have any sympathy in the great mass of the Irish people. The position would be hopeless if they had. I do not believe it. It is due to a system of terrorism of which we have had many examples in the past in Ireland, greatly to be deplored, but not difficult to understand. A single man with concealed arms who may be at the elbow of anyone when moving about in public places, can terrorise thousands. And what is more, a single man, if he delight and rejoice in taking life, will inevitably terrorise some who have the instinctive feeling of all civilised peoples against taking human life. This terrorism exists. It is the explanation of what is happening in Ireland. I do not believe for a moment—If I did I should think that bad as the problem is, it would be infinitely worse—that the leaders of Sinn Fein sympathise with these murders. I believe, on the contrary, that they have themselves raised a Frankenstein which they are unable to control or to dispel, and even they, as well as the great mass of the Irish people, whatever their political views, however strong their desire for political independence, would rejoice if this criminal conspiracy of murder could be put an end to.

There is one thing more I would like to say. I think there is too much inclination to look with despair on the problem of Ireland to-day. I see there is an Amendment to this Resolution on the Paper, but there are Amendments to the Bill, to the effect that we should not proceed with it until we have done something more to meet the legitimate wishes of the Irish people. In my belief, the pity of the present situation is that all this is happening at a time when the House of Commons, and when the people of this country of every party, including the party to which I belong, are more ready and anxious than they have ever been before to give to the Irish people the widest measure of local government which is compatible with our national safety, our national existence, and fairness to other sections in Ireland. It is not our fault; it is our misfortune—it is a national misfortune—that the elected representatives of the majority of the Irish people will not accept these conditions, that they will not come here to take their part in framing a measure to carry them into effect. That is not our fault, and, as far as I am concerned, 1 should have much less confidence in taking these steps, and asking the House to carry this Resolution on which the Bill will depend, if I did not feel and know that the Government which proposes this Resolution to the House of Commons which supports them, and the people of this country who returned them to the House of Commons, are as eager as any men could be to deal not only justly, but generously, with the Irish people.

I have said that I think there is too much despair about the possibility of meeting these conditions in Ireland. I am old enough to remember, as many other Members of this House are, what happened in the 'eighties. We all have in our minds those striking phrases which were used by Mr. Gladstone at that time. If anyone chooses to read the Debates, he will find that the condition in Ireland was described in language so lurid that anyone reading them would think it was impossible that conditions could be worse. But it was not only so in the 'eighties. An hon. Friend gave me—and I looked them up—the Debates of 1833, and I think it would interest the House, as showing how little this problem has changed, how this curse seems to cling for ever round any British Government, if I read what was said by Lord Macaulay in February, 1833: are compelled to do it, we shall put them down again. This Bill represents the powers which, after a careful examination of them, we consider necessary. We cannot accept the responsibility of continuing to carry on the Government without them, and I now ask the House of Commons to give us these powers.

The difficulty I have in replying to the spech which the Leader of the House has just made is this—that he has made no speech which is really relevant to the Motion before the House. I should like to ask, on a point of Order, whether we are entitled on this Motion to go into a complete Second Reading Debate. Personally, I would rather not, but confine my remarks to the powers which the Government are now seeking at the hands of the House. I should have thought it was much more convenient for the Debate if the discussion on this Motion consisted of some few and fairly brief speeches, and then for the House to go into the Second Reading Debate, with the full limits of a Second Reading Debate; in fact, in a word, to get down to the real business of the sitting. Therefore I shall confine what I have to say to the Motion before the House.

It is a difficult matter for anybody who feels the immense importance of maintenance of law and order to put oneself in a position which looks as if one disagrees with the principles which my right hon. Friend has laid down. But, at the risk of misrepresentation either in the House or in the country, I have not the slightest hesitation in taking up, with regard to this Motion and the Bill later on, the position which I believe is the only one which can bring a remedy to the ills from which Ireland and this country is at present suffering. The Leader of the House said that the large majority of the Irish people, and real public opinion in Ireland, if given an opportunity of expressing itself, were not in favour of those acts in Ireland which have brought about the necessity, from the Government's point of view, of the Bill now before the House. If that is so—and I entirely agree it is so—how immensely important it is that in regard to the Bill which we are shortly going to proceed to discuss, we should have ample opportunity, in all the ordinary forms of the House, of discussing it in all its material details. The Leader of the House spoke as if the procedure of the House was exactly as it was when the old coercion Acts were introduced. But since then there have been most important changes in procedure, and the Chair, both when occupied by Mr. Speaker and by the Chairman of Ways and Means, has been endowed with most drastic powers. The one which I would emphasise most at the present moment is the power of selection of Amendments. There is another practical fact, and that is that the Opposition to-day is, of necessity, not nearly so powerful or so able to obstruct as it was in the old days. Taking those two points together as the main basis of my position, I suggest that there is no need for the Motion. I am entitled also to claim that, while there would be free and full discussion under the Rules of Procedure of this House, there has been nothing in the experience either of this Session or of last Session to suggest that there is any will or desire on the part of those in Opposition to obstruct. There have been excursions into the irrelevancies of Debate, I agree, but on all important questions there has been nothing approaching obstruction. Therefore, on the Rules of Procedure and on the record of the Opposition, I claim that no case can be made out for the Closure Resolution which is now before the House. What is the urgency of only two days for the measure? The position which the Leader of the House put before us was a long recital of the development of crime during the last eight or nine months; but no new position has been created within the last few days which requires that this measure should go on Statute Book on Friday or on Monday, rather than on Thursday of next week. Therefore, I suggest that on that account the Motion, on the merits, fails. Glancing, for one moment, at what the Motion really does include by its reference to the Bill, let us see what we are asked to do in two days. Clause 1—the only Clause of the Bill—to which I made reference on the point of Order which you kindly allowed me to submit to you this afternoon, gives powers to the Executive in Ireland to carry on the business there by Regulations; and the power given by Sub-clause (2) means that life and liberty is to be entirely at the disposal of bodies sitting in secret——

Oh, yes, the same powers that were taken under Defence of the Realm Regulations 14B. They sit in secret; and, on the same conditions under which we deprived British subjects of liberty during the War, they can deprive British subjects in Ireland of their liberty, and even of their life.

I am taking the constitutional point, and I do not expect the hon. Member to follow me on it at all. I am trying to argue the constitutional point. That is the proposal under Sub-clause (2). Then there is the proposal to lump in all the courts of summary jurisdiction and the coroners' courts, and the question as to where courts can be held. These secret committees can move about secretly in any part of Ireland, and can sit night or day. Is not that a subject which ought to be fully discussed? I am not arguing the merits now; I am arguing the question of Debate and discussion on the floor of the House. I hope the hon. Member who interrupted me just now will have a glimmering of the point I am trying to make. Another point which is of the most serious importance is in relation to the right of this House to see that, no matter what the position of His Majesty's subjects may be, either in Ireland or elsewhere, we shall fully, fairly and competently discuss any abrogation or withdrawal of their rights. Under this Bill it is proposed to take away the right of trial in any civil matter, and it is proposed to take away the right of the Irish local authorities to receive their grants from the Treasury. All this is going to be done in two days. Four hours after the Motion is passed—and passed it will be by an enormous majority, there is not the slightest doubt—four hours after that the Second reading of this measure, carrying within it these powers, which I have only very slightly indicated, will have passed. Is that an adequate time, with no urgency for a day or two? Is that an adequate time within the ambit of which this revolutionary measure should be discussed?

I am not discussing the merits. I cannot knock that into the heads of hon. Members. I would require the sort of instrument which is said to be required to make a joke penetrate a Scotsman's head to get a perfectly simple argument into the heads of hon. Members opposite. What is going to happen in the Committee stage? Those of us who have had some years' experience of this House know how important the Committee stage is, especially in Committee of the whole House. I defy any Executive, advised as they may be by the very best friends and the most experienced minds, to beat the House of Commons in Committee of the whole House when it is fairly and freely discussing a matter of really vital importance. Over and over again, while I have been sitting in this House, I have seen private Members, as they are called, rise from a back Bench and put the most important points. On these three great issues, which I have just simply taken—the taking away of the right of the citizen to open trial, the taking away of the right to a jury in civil cases, the withholding of grants from local authorities, and the whole range of merits and demerits associated with that—what is going to happen? To-morrow, on a Friday—perhaps hon. Members who are not accustomed to be here on a Friday will put in an appearance to-morrow; it will be an entirely new experience with many of them—on a Friday afternoon we are going, between twelve and six o'clock, not only to pass the Committee stage, but to sweep away the whole of these rights of British subjects, the majority of whom, according to the admission of the Leader of the House, are not in favour of these outrages. In the old days, which the Prime Minister will well remember, when we were discussing such matters, six days was not sufficient. I am only pleading for full discussion. That is all I ask.

I say, in conclusion, that on the case which has been made here there is no shadow of justification for giving these vast powers to the Executive, and for going through all the stages of legislation which centuries of experience have sanctioned as necessary, within two days and at the end of a week. We could have done it a week ago or a month ago. It is, I fear, not a happy augury of the spirit in which these powers, when given, are going to be administered. 'On the ground of the constitutional right of Members of this House fully, fairly, and competently to discuss any proposal made by the Executive, under any conditions, to wipe away the rights of the subject, we shall vote against the Motion which is now before the House.

I do not want to say a discourteous word of my right hon. Friend opposite who has moved this Motion, but I never heard a speech from any Member of this House which had so little to do with the case before the House as the one which he has uttered in support of this Motion. It may be regarded as quite a fitting speech, and, indeed, it was, in support of the Bill to be hereafter considered; but it was not a speech which in any way could excuse or justify the insult to the House of Commons which is offered in the Motion now before us.

May I remind my right hon. Friend that he is labouring under a misapprehension? The ground of my speech was the justification of this method of procedure. I think that, if he will look back, he will find that some Motion of the same kind has been made, and that the same reason has been given for it.

I am not going to overlook that point; indeed, it is going to be one of my arguments. The main point in the right hon. Gentleman's speech was that we ought to agree to this Motion because the Bill is necessary. My point is that there is such serious division of opinion as to whether this Bill is necessary or not, that it is the right of the House of Commons to have reasonable time in which to discuss and debate the matter properly. I ask on what grounds can it be concluded that there may be obstruction from this side, or from some quarter of the House, in relation to a matter of this kind? I believe that the sense of responsibility in regard to the situation in Ireland is shared evenly in every quarter of the House, and that there is a common desire entertained by us all' to take any step we can to suppress crime and to deal with the Irish situation. We are, however, entitled to entertain honest differences of opinion as to what is the best method of attaining the desired end. I join, therefore, with my right hon. Friend who has just spoken, in urging the constitutional right of this House to debate at reasonable length a matter of this kind, and all the more to debate it because of its supreme importance in relation to what is now the Irish situation. Experience during the life of this Parliament, so far, gives no Member of the Government a right to charge us either with obstructing or with intending to obstruct: and this, of all questions, is not a question upon which any Member on this side of the House would think lightly of wasting the time of the House in unnecessary discussion merely for the purpose of obstructive tactics. We have heard a great deal lately—and it is, indeed, known to us all—of the diminishing reputation of Parliament as an instrument for government. This policy on the part of the Government will not improve the reputation of Parliament. If really the case is so urgent, and the condition of crime in Ireland so serious, why take up two days? If the Government are proposing to use the enormous numbers that can troop through the Lobby and suppress the small minority which is in Opposition, why not declare now that this Bill shall pass through all its stages during the course of this afternoon, and that arrangements shall be made that the Royal Assent be given to it to-night? If it is so urgent, why not reduce the two days to one? I submit that there is no ground for this Motion, and that it might now tend to improve, not merely the temper of the House, but generally the quality of the conduct than can be brought to bear in handling the different stages of this Bill during to-day and tomorrow, if the Leader of the House could see his way to leave Parliament free to deal with these great questions. In the earlier stages of the season, when the Government of Ireland Bill was introduced, I believe there was then some such fear entertained that hon. Members might waste the time of the House in obstructive tactics, and it was reported that a Motion of this character was then intended. The Government thought better of it, and indeed they have therefore had the greatest possible leisure for dealing with a big Bill such as the Government of Ireland Bill. No case whatever has been made for this Motion, and indeed I rather suspect that the right hon. Gentleman himself avoided reference to this Motion, and addressed himself to the main Bill because he knew there was no case whatever to make out in support of the Motion.

The Leader of the House has set before the House a very enticing temptation, and that is to discuss on this Motion not the Motion itself, but the merits and the policy of the Bill which is to follow. I shall endeavour to resist the temptation, and shall try, as far as I possibly can, to address my observations to the Guillotine Resolution. I must begin by making reference to one or two rather striking observations of the right hon. Gentleman. He spoke of the leaders of the Sinn Fein party as probably by this time frightened by the Frankenstein which they have brought into existence. If I were to describe the present situation, if I were to use the word "Frankenstein," my judgment would be that the Frankenstein was brought into existence by His Majesty's Government in its policy in Ireland. I believe there would have been no necessity for the Motion, or the Bill that is to follow, if the policy of the Government had been a wise, a just, and a prompt policy. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of pursuing the policy of the Bill with determination, and I think he said courage. If he would join to the policy of the Government justice, as well as courage and resolution, there would be a greater chance of his policy of tranquilising Ireland being successful The right hon. Gentleman made another observation which I must notice. He pointed out, justly, the very grave danger of fierce race feeling between England and Ireland arising if the present state of things went on. I have almost as strong reason as the right hon. Gentleman himself for fearing such an eventuality. I am the representative of an Irish constituency in England, and I am the President of an organisation which in its turn represents 2,500,000 Irish people in England, Scotland and Wales, and I should certainly be entirely false to my responsibility in these different positions if I did not do everything I could to avert that terrible racial feud between the two peoples, so that this Frankenstein will be raised by the policy of the Government, in spite of all my efforts and those of my friends.

My right hon. Friend (Sir D. Maclean) has ascribed the omission by the right hon. Gentleman of all allusion to the Motion he was making to the feeling in his mind that he had to avoid that issue. I will be more charitable, and I will take it for granted that he considers that his speech dealt with that point. No one will deny that the Bill deserves the epithet of drastic which the Prime Minister gave it, and that for good reasons or for bad it interferes with the liberty of the subjects in Ireland to a degree unparalleled even in the history of coercion Bills. The right hon. Gentleman declared, as I have no doubt others will, that the Bill applies only to criminals and murderers. This Bill, like all others, applies to the just as well as to the unjust, and when we make this large interference with the liberties of the citizen, we have a right to look at it from the point of view of every citizen, the innocent as well as the guilty, and to safeguard by criticism and examination the liberties of the just as well as the crimes of the unjust, and that point of my right hon. Friend is one which I think the Government will find it hard to answer. I was surprised that the right hon. Gentleman did not look into more precedents than he mentioned, but he mentioned the Coercion Bill of 1833, to which Lord MacCawley alluded. Did he take the trouble to make inquiries with regard, to that Coercion Bill, dealing with a state of things which he suggests was as bad as the state of things in Ireland to-day? I can give him the information. The Debate lasted on the Address five nights, the Debate on the First Heading lasted six nights, on the Second Reading two nights, and six nights were spent in Committee. That was the poor, undemocratic House of Commons of the 'thirties, with rotten boroughs. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] Does the hon. Member suggest that all the rottenness of Parliamentary institutions, the narrow franchise, the rotten boroughs and the over represented boroughs, ended in 1832? As compared with to-day the Parliament of 1833 was much less democratic, and yet in that Parliament, they took all that time. I have had the misfortune of fighting many coercion Bills in the course of 40 years of Parliamentary life and this is the first time any approach has been made either to the severity of the coercion proposals or to the curtailment of the time given to the House for Debate. I take the case of 1381, a conflict in which I had to take a somewhat prominent part. The Debate on the Address lasted 11 nights, the First Reading five nights, the Second Reading four nights, ten nights were spent in Committee and two on the Third Reading, so that altogether, excluding the Address, there were 21 nights, and including the Address 32 nights. That is an extraordinary contrast between the way in which coercion Bills have been dealt with in previous years and the happy era in which we are now living.

The right hon. Gentleman, I assume, brings in this Bill with a view to tranquilising the state of things in Ireland. He has, I think, properly ascribed these terrible deeds to a minority of the population, but he is bringing in coercion, which applies to the majority as well as the minority, and judging by the Order Paper I should say it is the widespread opinion in many parts of the House that no coercion in Ireland can be really effective which is not backed by the moral support of the majority of the Irish people. Will it be backed by the moral support? The liberties of Irishmen are to be taken away to a degree never before reached or proposed. For this drastic coercion Bill a portion of two days is given. Will not Irishmen be entitled to say anything? What a contrast there would be if such a measure were proposed for Englishmen. Is an Irishman to be told that his liberties can be taken away without even discussing a proposal which would create something like a revolution in this country? The destruction of the Irish Parliament took place 120 years ago, and I believe we have had 120 coercion proposals in the 120 years. That is the triumph of your policy in Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned 1833. He is not probably as familiar with Irish history—it has not entered into his soul as it has entered into mine. But 13 years after the Government had carried their Coercion Bill, with due and prolonged discussion, 1,000,000 people died of hunger and 5,000,000 were exiled, to become the bitterest enemies of the Empire.

5.0 P.M.

The right hon. Gentleman said, I think with more truth than he realised, that there is a great desire, not merely among the people of England, but in this House to be just, and I think he even used the word generous, in enacting the largest possible liberty to Ireland consistent with Ireland remaining within the fabric of the Empire and with the protection of the Orange part of the North-East of Ulster from real or imaginary danger. I was astounded to hear him coupling that statement with the proposal of this guillotine Resolution and the proposals of this Government. Coercion rushes forward with lightning speed. Hey presto, a Bill is proposed and gets the Royal sanction. What about the measure of just and generous feeling, without which all these coercion proposals will defeat their own end? Since 1914 Home Rule is the law of the land, and six years after it is made the law of the land, after one of the greatest and longest struggles in history, it is still put in cold storage by the right hon. Gentleman under the control of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Carson). Just and generous! Freedom for Ireland! And this is one of the authors of the Bill which has been flouted by all opinion in Ireland, that is so dead to-day that it is actually stinking in the very nostrils of everyone in Ireland, and even this miserable Measure, which was to give liberty to Ireland, the praises of which were given by the Prime Minister in his most rotund rhetoric and Ms deepest basso-profundo notes, first takes a very ambling gait during the first part of the Session and is then postponed to another Session. Even this miserable concession can be indefinitely proposed and coercion must go hot foot after two days' discussion. I do not think that a policy like that is likely to tranquilise Ireland or to bring back order. The Government must change their whole policy. They must make good their words. They must not make the mistake of thinking that Ireland is going to be put off any more with vague declarations such as the right hon. Gentleman uttered to-day. Negotiating with the Government on Ireland is as hopeless a proposition as the proposition of negotiating with an electric eel. You never know whether you hold it or not. I will oppose this Motion and the Bill that follows it in the honest and strong conviction that the whole policy of the Government, including this Bill and this guillotine Resolution, is calculated not to remove but to aggravate all the horrors from which Ireland is suffering.

I beg to move, to leave out the words, "at 11 o'clock this day, or at the expiration of four hours from the commencement of the proceedings thereon, whichever may be the later," and to insert instead thereof the words "on Friday."

I have several consequential Amendments, and by your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will explain them in order that the House will appreciate what I want to do. If you insert the words, "on Friday," and my subsequent Amendments, the latter part of the Sub-section would read: "The proceedings on the remaining stages of the Bill shall be taken on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, and if everything else goes out the Order of the Day would then read: "That the proceedings on the Second Reading of the Restoration of Order in Ireland Bill (hereinafter referred to as "The Bill"), if not previously brought to a conclusion, shall be brought to a conclusion on Friday. The remaining stages of the Bill shall be taken on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday."

I will address my remarks to the first Amendment, because if it is opposed by the Government, there will be no use in moving the others. This is not the occasion for discussing the merits of the Bill, but we ought to discuss the rights of this House with regard to this proposal or any similar proposal. Hon. Members ought to appreciate exactly what they are asked to give away themselves, and the rights which they are asked to deprive you of, Mr. Speaker, for these two days before they agree to the guillotine Resolution being passed. This is not a new Parliament and the Leader of the House cannot plead that he has not had plenty of time to appreciate the Irish situation. There have been two Irish Secretaries. The first was a complete failure and had to be recalled and given another post in the administration. The second was returned at a bye-election, in the course of which he gave the pledge that he would have no difficulty in impressing his views upon the Cabinet with respect to the Irish situation. We now have his views in the form of the Bill, the Second Reading of which is to be moved to-day. The Leader of the House also knows that for two years, Sinn Fein Members for Ireland have not taken the oath, and, therefore, have not attended this House, and the situation has gone from bad to worse; yet it is only in the last week of the Session, because we have to rise this day week, that we are asked to address ourselves to probably the most serious situation that has arisen in Ireland within the memory of those in this House. That is the atmosphere of this scandalous guillotine Motion which we find on the Paper.

I want to examine the matter from the point of view of the House of Commons. The guillotine Resolution says that we are to have four hours for the Second Reading of this Measure. That is, if we dispose of this guillotine Resolution before 7 o'clock we shall have four hours' discussion up to 11, but if we do not dispose of the Resolution by 7 o'clock the House will be deprived of the time that it takes up in discussing this Resolution, in the interests of its rights, in discussing the Second Reading of the Bill between 7 o'clock and 11 o'clock. My right hon. Friend knows the House of Commons possibly as well, if not better, than any other Member. He knows that certain Members of the Government must talk on Second Reading. It would be ridiculous to have a Second Reading Debate without a speech from the Irish Secretary. The Prime Minister has also intimated that he intends to take part in the Debate, and presumably the Leader of the House will be present and will be lying in wait, as he always is, to wind up the discussion, if necessary. Therefore, the minimum number of speakers from the Government must be two. I should imagine that of the speakers from this Bench the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), from his knowledge and long experience, will be expected to speak, and someone representing the Labour Party will be expected to speak. Then there is what remains of the Irish Nationalist Party in this House. They are certainly entitled to be heard, and so are the Ulster Unionists. These are the indispensable speakers, and I have not forgotten the smaller parties in the House and some of them who do not belong to any party who would be entitled on a question of this kind to express a point of view. It cannot be done as a matter of time.

It may be that the Government does not care a brass button what any other Member of the House of Commons has to say about this matter. I observe from the Order Paper that no fewer than 19 Members, including nearly a dozen of their own supporters, have put down Motions which they wish to be considered before the House goes into the question of the Second Reading. I assume that the hon. Members whose names appears first to each of these Motions have a traditional right, I do not know whether it is a firm right, but certainly a right as a matter of practice, to have some hope of being called in the Debate with the idea that their point of view should be expressed. Inside of the four hours which we may get these Members must have an opportunity of discussing the measure. Suppose we get through with what speeches we can before eleven o'clock. We meet at twelve to-morrow and by the Motion we stop at six o'clock. That gives us six hours to-morrow, and within those six hours we have to compress the Committee stage of the Bill. No one can put down an Amendment until the Second Heading is carried to-night. I suppose my right hon. Friend realises that. That means that they will not appear on the Paper for to-morrow or such as do will be very limited in number, and the House will be invited as a whole House in Committee to discuss manuscript Amendments, the merits of which they cannot understand unless they have the letter of the Bill in front of them, and a very vivid notion of what has been read out and what they mean.

Having got through the Committee stage, we proceed to the Report stage. You then have Mr. Speaker in the Chair, instead of the Chairman of Ways and Means, and Mr. Speaker has the right, and the duty, to consider what Amendments should be taken on Report. Though we have the greatest confidence in the ability of Mr. Speaker to carry through the work of the Chair, it is not fair to step immediately from the Committee stage to the Chair of the House without having seen the Amendment, and to come to a judgment as to which of them should be called. Then you have the Third Reading, and I suppose those who were unable to get in on the Second Reading to express a representative view—I am not putting in any claim for individual Members, but only for representative views—will expect to be called. If at any period of this extraordinary process any Member who takes a genuine interest in this Bill desires to move an Amendment, he is placed in a difficult position. Take my hon. Friend the Member for the Falls Division (Mr. Devlin). No one will dispute, however much they may differ from his views and his policy, that he understands something about the Irish Question, and he is the kind of Member who would be entitled to put down an Amendment which I hope the Leader of the House would regard with some respect. If the hon. Member for the Scotland Yard Division of Liverpool—[HON. MEMBERS: "Scotland Division!)"]—some say it is the Scotland Division of Liverpool, but it is not. I meant the Scotland Road Division of Liverpool. If the hon. Member for the Scotland Road Division of Liverpool desires to put down an Amendment, what would happen? You are asked, Mr. Speaker, by this Resolution to say, "No, I cannot call the Amendment of the hon. Member for the Falls Division, or the Amendment of the hon. Member for the Scotland Road Division of Liverpool, because the Resolution says that I must call nothing but Government Amendments." The Government not only takes the power to themselves, but they manacle and handcuff the Speaker, and prevent him putting Amendments which are on the Paper in the names of hon. Members.

On an important topic of this kind, with great issues hanging in the balance, each hon. Member is entitled to the same kind of treatment as any Member of the Government in regard to Amendments. That is a fair and honest view to take of the situation. Mr. Speaker is not allowed to accept any instructions with regard to the Committee stage. It is often the case that Members put down instructions to the Committee. If any hon. Member puts down an instruction in connection with this matter, Mr. Speaker, is not allowed to call it under this Motion. He is not allowed to postpone the Clause, and not allowed to accept a Motion to Report Progress. The Motion to Report Progress is one of the most essential in all Debates. The Government can Report Progress, and, if they do, no other Member of the House is then allowed to speak on that Debate. I hope that, by what I have said, the House thoroughly understands that the right of Members of this House, representing their constituents, interested in the Irish Question, is taken away from them, but that the same kind of right is taken away from Mr. Speaker, whom we, as Members of this House, elect from time to time to preside over the deliberations of this House; taken away on a Bill introduced by one of the worst Governments that have ever tried to tackle the Irish Question; taken away at a time in the Session when they ought not to attempt ever to bring in a measure of this sort. The Leader of the House has said that men who had small minds never made any success in business. This is a large problem. It is two years old even from the beginning of this present Parliament, and the Government, with a small mind, is bringing this Bill forward in the small hours of the small end of this Session. This is a confession of failure, a failure which will go down with them into history, condemning them as one of the worst Governments that ever attempted to solve one of the greatest problems.

I should perhaps prefer to allow this discussion now to come to a close in order that the House might proceed at once to discuss the proposals which will shortly be committed by the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland, but I feel I cannot sit here as an Irish Member and allow a proposal so extraordinary and so unprecedented to be passed by this House without uttering my protest. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House is not content to invite Parliament to pass one of the most extraordinarily repressive measures that have ever been submitted by a Constitutional Assembly in any country in Europe, but he asks the House to do it in a fashion which, I think, will outrage the feelings of every democratic and thoughtful man in these Islands. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that the reason that there is only to be practically one day given to this coercive measure is that everyone is so completely in favour of it that there is no need to occupy the time of the House in discussion. He says that the only hostility is from a small minority in this House. I should imagine that, when you are going to destroy the last vestige of liberty in Ireland, you ought, at least, to give ample time to the Members of this House, whether they are in a minority or not, to have an opportunity of discussing the matter. "A small minority of this House"—the right hon. Gentleman has a right to make that comment. If there is a small minority of this House, if there is an infinitesimal representation from Ireland in this House, the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues on the Treasury Bench are responsible for that. If there exists to-day in Ireland a con- dition of affairs unparalleled in history, I believe that the right hon. Gentleman knows who is responsible. If the right thing were done, and if it were possible to do it, instead of this oppressive coercion Act being passed for Ireland to add to the long records of coercion Acts standing on the Statute Book, there ought to be passed an Act of Parliament clearing the present Government out of power and giving some other Government a chance to answer this question in a different fashion.

There has not been a single moment in the controversies and discussions in this House for the last two and a half years where even the views of a few Members from Ireland have been listened to. Had that been done many of those terrible calamities which have occurred in Ireland recently might not have happened. At a time like this, when there is practically no representation from Ireland in the House of Commons, the right hon. Gentleman brings forward a proposal which removes the last vestige of freedom in that country. How can you have freedom if you abolish trial by jury? I think that the dictum would be accepted by the greatest reactionary in this Parliament or outside that trial by jury is one of the corner-stones of the structure of freedom in any country in the world. But I have seen strange things in this House. We have heard of the remarkable progress of advance of democratic ideas. I have heard doctrines preached in this House at a time when there is universal manhood franchise in England, which would have disgraced the Middle Ages. The destruction of trial by jury and the setting up of tribunals of this character is robbing the people of every constitutional and legal right. These things are so vital that, if you destroy them, you destroy every constitutional right that remains in that country.

What is this Bill introduced for? The right hon. Gentleman said that the Bill is for the purpose of stamping out lawlessness and crime and disorder. He has declared, and he has given us historical precedent, that measures of this character have stamped out disorder in Ireland before. I contradict that statement absolutely. There never was disorder created in Ireland without that disorder springing from the discontent of the people. The right hon. Gentleman talked about crime and disorder in 1832, but he forgets that you cannot have very much order, and that you are bound to have crime in a country where the people are denied every form of freedom, and in a country which under their law and administration, as my hon. Friend the Member for the Scotland Division (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) declared, 1,000,000 of the population died of starvation in one year. 4,500,000 of them were carried in that great procession along the Atlantic Ocean. 4,500,000 of the very brighest and best of our race, and if you go to America now and try to study it for yourself, what is the main and inspiring cause of the bitter hatred of this country by the Irish in America? You will find that it springs from the bitter memories of those descendants of that 4,500,000 of the hunted Irish race who, driven from the fairest land in Europe, went out to America with burning memories of the wrongs that have been done to their fathers. Is there any wonder that there is disorder and indignation and resentment? Is it any wonder that there is crime, when a race like this, denied existence at home, is treated and subjected to a land system which the right hon. Gentleman the Member of the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) declared to be the most infamous land system in the world? Is there any wonder that there is crime and disorder?

Then you proceeded, first of all, to repress and coerce disorder and crime. Disorder, crime, and resentment spring from coercion and repression. Afterwards you proceeded to conciliate. I would like the Leader of the House, in his historical researches, to try and find out whether it is true or not that you have never proposed a single remedial measure for Ireland dealing with the land, life, and liberty of the people; that you have never dealt with Irish questions by remedial legislation until you have carried a series of coercive measures repressing the spirit of the land. Anybody who knows anything about the story of Ireland for 50 years will find out for himself. The moment that any attempt is made by the Irish people for relief or reform it was met by coercion and repression. Then there was the weary cycle of discontent, agitation, indignation, and outrage, and then, when you had carried through all this, you came forward at the end to make the concession you ought to have made in the beginning. Therein lies, in my judgment, the rightful source of our resentment. When we pleaded with you to listen to the demands of the people you brought this present coercive Bill before the House. You will ultimately be definitely and finally compelled to do the very thing in the future that you are refusing to do now, after you have aroused fresh passion and fresh indignation in the country.

The Leader of the House, in his speech, talked about the terrorism that exists in Ireland. The Irish are naturally not a race of terrorists; the Irish are not a race of criminals. I do not believe there is any race in the world which hates or loathes more fiercely anything of this nature, but in all that speech of the right hon. Gentleman, in all the analysis that we shall get from statesmen on the Treasury Bench, and in the speech of the Prime Minister, which will come later, you will not get one solitary case given in which, for some reason or another, Ireland is the only country to-day in all Europe where you have the people practically unanimous against the Government and all that the Government stands for. How can you expect, if you pass the most drastic and repressive laws, if you set up a special tribunal to maintain the law, how can you expect the law to succeed if everybody in every town and country place is against the Government which pretends to uphold that law and has brought it about? The one thing the Government despise is the moral sanction of the public conscience. I care not whether you were to bring into Ireland all the tyrants that have lived for a thousand years. You will never have either law or order in Ireland until you have the sanction of the public conscience. The public conscience is the only thing that can give sanction to law, and the public conscience can give sanction to law only when the law is "broad based upon her people's will." Therefore I say that I expect here, as a Nationalist representative of the people, some answer to the impeachment which I make against the Government. The right hon. Gentleman, the Chief Secretary, has only lately been in Ireland. He knows something about, public opinion there. He knows something about the hatred of the Government, of the present system of Government, the hatred of every- thing for which the Government stands in Ireland. He knows that that hatred is universal and deep-rooted, and he will not deny it. He may attribute it to whatever cause he likes, but he cannot deny that the fact remains. Here we are at the end of a war and at the end of a long and weary Session of this great British Parliament, the mother of the Constitutional assemblies of the democratic world, devoting our time to the destruction of a people's freedom and to the denial to them of those constitutional rights which are the foundation upon which liberty is based. All that is to be done in four hours on one day and in six hours on another day. It is to be done at the end of a war which was to end war, which was to make the world safe for democracy, which was waged—at least, I was told so and I believed it, and I went and told the people of Ireland the same story and they believed me until they found out it was false—for the freedom of small nations and the right of all civilised peoples to fashion their destinies according to their own aspirations. Where is the right of a people to fashion its destinies under this Bill? Where is the freedom of this Parliament, not our Parliament, but your Parliament—the Parliament of the British people? This Parliament is to be used to make the world safe for democracy by robbing one of the parts of the British Empire of the most precious thing that constitutional liberty can give.

The right hon. Gentleman, in the closing part of his speech, told us of the passions which the incidents in Ireland were arousing in England, and I am sure his statement was true. Have hon. Members ever considered the passions which this Irish question is arousing throughout the world? There are 20,000,000 of the Irish race in America; a quarter of the population, of Australia is Irish; one-fifth of the population of Canada is Irish; and a strong and powerful section of our people, and the best of their citizens, are in New Zealand and South Africa. Wherever the English language is spoken there are to be found vast colonies of people of Irish birth and descent. No one who has visited those countries will contradict me when I say that amongst the most powerful factors in Government, in commerce, in industry, and in all great branches of national progress throughout these great lands, the Irish people and Irish genius have played a mighty and beneficent part. These are the forces which you are arousing against you. Yet in face of all these circumstances, with new hatreds arising towards Ireland in England, with memories embittered in Ireland against England, with passion aroused in America against this country, with men and women throughout the world, the highest minds and the noblest hearts, consecrating themselves to the task of human unity for all great Christian causes, this is the moment when all this poison is to be allowed to corrode the national lives and the mutual conduct of all the English-speaking peoples. Never has the imagination of a British Minister on the Treasury Bench been inspired by anything higher than to try some pettifogging expedient to satisfy this party, to close the mouth of that party, to hold together men of varying views, and never has a single effort been made by imagination or by a keen instinct for what is the right thing. Ireland at the end of the War, the one small nationality that was not under the heel of the Central Powers, the one small nation whom you have the power to control, is the one small nation that is not allowed to manifest and give expression to its own natural desires and its own intense aspirations for liberty. The only country in all Europe to-day that is denied freedom is the country which is under the control of a nation which was the chief propagandist and apostle of the principle that all small nationalities had a right to freedom. Your contribution to that principle now is a Bill of this character, a Coercion Bill forced through the House of Commons under a guillotine Resolution, and forced through under circumstances that deny even to English Members the opportunity of trying to vindicate themselves and the character of the English people. All I can say is, that you are paying a very big price for your Coercion Act. I hope you will be satisfied when the price is paid.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 269; Noes, 67.

Division No. 306.]

AYES.

[5.40 p.m.

Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S.

Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Macquisten, F. A.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Foreman, Henry

Magnus, Sir Philip

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Forrest, Walter

Mallaby-Deeley, Harry

Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Astor, Viscountess

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Atkey, A. R.

Frece, Sir Walter de

Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B.

Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Mitchell, William Lane

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Gange, E. Stanley

Molson, Major J. E.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C.

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Gardiner, James

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick)

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut. -Col. J. T. C.

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Morden, Colonel H. Grant

Barlow, Sir Montague

Gilbert, James Daniel

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

Morison, Rt. Hon. T. B.

Barnett, Major R. W.

Colliding, Rt, Hon. Sir Edward A.

Morrison, Hugh

Barnston, Major Harry

Grant, James A.

Mount, William Arthur

Barrand, A. R.

Green, Albert (Derby)

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Barrie, Charles Coupar

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Murchison, C. K.

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar

Murray, Major William (Dumfries)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Nail, Major Joseph

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Greig, Colonel James William

Neal, Arthur

Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Cr'nw'h)

Gretton, Colonel John

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Bennett, Thomas Jewell

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Nicholl, Commander Sir Edward

Betterton, Henry B.

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E.

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Bigland, Alfred

Guest, Major O. (Leic., Loughboro')

Nield, Sir Herbert

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, Wes.)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H.

Blair, Reginald

Hailwood, Augustine

Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark

Berwick, Major G. O.

Hall, Captain Douglas Bernard

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Parker, James

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Brassey, Major H. L. C.

Hanna, George Boyle

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Breese, Major Charles E.

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Percy, Charles

Bridgeman, William Clive

Harmsworth, Sir R. L. (Caithness)

Perkins, Walter Frank

Britton, G. B.

Harris, Sir Henry Percy

Perring, William George

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City)

Brown, T. W. (Down, North)

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Bruton, Sir James

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Pollock, Sir Ernest M.

Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

Prescott, Major W. H.

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Burdett-Coutts, William

Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.)

Pulley, Charles Thornton

Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's)

Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

Purchase, H. G.

Butcher, Sir John George

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Campbell, J. D. G.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Ramsden, G. T

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Rankin, Captain James S.

Carr, W. Theodore

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Ratcliffe, Henry Butler

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Hudson, R. M.

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)

Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H.

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Casey, T. W.

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

Cautley, Henry S.

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Reid, D. D.

Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Remer, J. R.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)

Jameson, J. Gordon

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Jesson, C.

Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)

Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Rodger, A. K.

Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Roundel), Colonel R. F.

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Cohen, Major J. Brunei

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Norwood)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustavo D.

Cory, Sir C. J. (Cornwall, St. Ives)

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid)

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Knight, Major E. A. (Kidderminster)

Smith, Harold (Warrington)

Curzon, Commander Viscount

Larmor, Sir Joseph

Smithers, Sir Alfred W.

Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

Stanier, Captain Sir Seville

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Lindsay, William Arthur

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)

Lister, Sir R. Ashton

Stanton, Charles B.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Lloyd, George Butler

Stevens, Marshall

Dawes, James Arthur

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

Stewart, Gershom

Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend)

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

Lorden, John William

Sturrock, J. Leng

Dewhurst, Lieut. -Commander Harry

Lort-Williams, J.

Sugden, W. H.

Duncannon, Viscount

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Sutherland, Sir William

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Lyle, C. E. Leonard

Sykes, Colonel Sir A. J. (Knutsford)

Edge, Captain William

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Talbot, G. A. (Kernel Hempstead)

Elveden, Viscount

Lynn, R. J.

Taylor, J.

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray

Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

Falle, Major Sir Bertram G.

Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Farquharson, Major A. C.

McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)

Tryon, Major George Clement

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Macmaster, Donald

Turton, E. R.

FitzRoy, Captain Hon. E. A.

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Vickers, Douglas

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Worthington- Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley)

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Yate, Colonel Charles Edward

Weston, Colonel John W.

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir M. (Bethnal Gn.)

Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich)

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.)

Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

Wood, Major S. Hill- (High Peak)

Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward.

NOES.

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Harbison, Thomas James S.

Rendall, Athelstan

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Hirst, G. H.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

Holmes, J. Stanley

Robertson, John

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Irving, Dan

Rose, Frank H.

Bottomley, Horatio W.

Johnstone, Joseph

Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John

Briant, Frank

Kelly, Edward J. (Donegal, East)

Sexton, James

Bromfield, William

Kenworthy, Lieut-Commander J. M.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Kiley, James D.

Sitch, Charles H.

Cairns, John

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Spencer, George A.

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Lawson, John J.

Spoor, B. G.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

Lunn, William

Swan, J. E.

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Devlin, Joseph

Mills, John Edmund

Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Donnelly, P.

Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen)

Waterson, A. E.

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Wedgwood, Colonel J. C.

Glanville, Harold James

Myers, Thomas

Wignall, James

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

Wilkie, Alexander

Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

O'Connor, Thomas P.

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

O'Grady, Captain James

Wintringham, T.

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Grundy, T. W.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Mr. Hogge and Mr. G. Thorne.

Main Question put.

The House divided: Ayes, 273; Noes, 68.

Division No. 307.]

AYES.

[5.50 p.m.

Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S.

Campbell, J. D. G.

Frece, Sir Walter de

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Carr, W. Theodore

Gange, E. Stanley

Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C.

Astor, Viscountess

Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Wellington)

Gardiner, James

Atkey, A. R.

Casey, T. W.

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

Cautley, Henry S.

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin

Gilbert, James Daniel

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Colliding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A.

Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick)

Chadwick, Sir Robert

Grant, James A.

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)

Green, Albert (Derby)

Barlow, Sir Montague

Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Barnett, Major R. W.

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar

Barnston, Major Harry

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Barrand, A. R.

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Greig, Colonel James William

Barrie, Charles Coupar

Cory, Sir C. J. (Cornwall, St. Ives)

Gretton, Colonel John

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid)

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Curzon, Commander Viscount

Guest, Major O. (Leic., Loughboro')

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Benn, Capt. Sir 1. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h)

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Bennett, Thomas Jewell

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Hallwood, Augustine

Betterton, Henry B.

Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)

Hall, Captain Douglas Bernard

Bigland, Alfred

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.}

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Dawes, James Arthur

Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend)

Hanna, George Boyle.

Blair, Reginald

Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Berwick, Major G. O.

Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry

Harmsworth, Sir R. L. (Caithness)

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Duncannon, Viscount

Harris, Sir Henry Percy

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

Brassey, Major H. L. C.

Edge, Captain William

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Breese, Major Charles E.

Elveden, Viscount

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Bridgeman, William Clive

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Britton, G. B.

Falle, Major Sir Bertram G.

Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Farquharson, Major A. C.

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Brown, T. W. (Down, North)

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, w.)

Bruton, Sir James

FitzRoy, Captain Hon. E. A.

Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossiey)

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Foreman, Henry

Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Burdett-Coutts, William

Forrest, Walter

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's)

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Hudson, R. M.

Butcher, Sir John George

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H.

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Morden, Colonel H. Grant

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

James, Lieut. -Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Morison, Rt. Hon. T. B.

Scott, Sir Samuel (St. Marylebone)

Jameson, J. Gordon

Morrison, Hugh

Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

Jesson, C.

Mount, William Arthur

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Smith, Harold (Warrington)

Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Murchison, C. K.

Smithers, Sir Alfred W.

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey)

Murray, Major William (Dumfries)

Stanler, Captain Sir Seville

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Nail, Major Joseph

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

Neal, Arthur

Stanton, Charles B.

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Stevens, Marshall

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Nield, Sir Herbert

Stewart, Gershom

Knight, Major E. A. (Kidderminster)

Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Larmor, Sir Joseph

O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H.

Sturrock, J. Long

Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark

Sugden, W. H

Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Sutherland, Sir William

Lindsay, William Arthur

Parker, James

Sykes, Colonel Sir A. J. (Knutsford)

Lister, Sir R. Ashton

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead)

Lloyd, George Butler

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Taylor, J.

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

Percy, Charles

Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Perkins, Walter Frank

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Lorden, John William

Perring, William George

Tryon, Major George Clement

Lort-Williams, J.

Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City)

Turton, E. R.

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Vickers, Douglas

Lyle, C. E. Leonard

Pollock, Sir Ernest M,

Walters, Rt. Hon. sir John Tudor

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley)

Lynn, R. J.

Prescott, Major W. H.

Weston, Colonel John W.

Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)

Pulley, Charles Thornton

Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)

Purchase, H. G.

Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.)

Macmaster, Donald

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Ramsden, G. T.

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Rankin, Captain James S.

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James 1.

Ratcliffe, Henry Butler

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir M. (Bethnal Gn.)

Macquisten, F. A.

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Magnus, Sir Philip

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)

Mallaby-Deeley, Harry

Bees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

Wood, Major S. Hill- (High Peak)

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Reid, D. D.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Remer, J. R.

Yate, Colonel Charles Edward

Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B.

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Yeo, Sir Alfred William

Mitchell, William Lane

Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)

Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich)

Molson, Major J. E.

Rodger, A. K.

Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M.

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Norwood)

Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward.

NOES.

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Harbison, Thomas James S.

Robertson, John

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Hirst, G. H.

Rose, Frank H.

Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

Holmes, J. Stanley

Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John

Bonn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Irving, Dan

Sexton, James

Bottomley, Horatio W.

Johnstone, Joseph

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Briant, Frank

Kelly, Edward J. (Donegal, East)

Sitch, Charles H.

Bromfield, William

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Kiley, James D.

Spencer, George A.

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Spoor, B. G.

Cairns, John

Lawson, John J.

Swan, J. E.

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Lunn, William

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)

Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Mills, John Edmund

Waterson, A. E.

Devlin, Joseph

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Wedgwood, Colonel J. C.

Donnelly, P.

Myers, Thomas

Wignall, James

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

Wilkie, Alexander

Glanville, Harold James

O'Connor, Thomas P.

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

O'Grady, Captain James

Wintringham, T.

Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Grundy, T. W.

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Rendall, Athelstan

Mr. Hogge and Mr. G. Thorne.

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Ordered,

"That the proceedings on the Second Reading of the Restoration of Order in Ireland Bill (hereinafter referred to as "the Bill"), if not previously brought to a conclusion, shall be brought to a conclusion at Eleven o'Clock this day, or at the expiration of four hours from the commencement of the proceedings thereon, whichever may be the later.

The proceedings on the remaining stages of the Bill shall be taken To-morrow, and, if not previously brought to a conclusion, shall be brought to a conclusion at 6 p.m. on that day.

For the purpose of bringing to a conclusion any proceedings which are to be brought to a conclusion, the Chairman or Mr. Speaker shall, at the said time, put forthwith the Question on any Amendment or Motion already proposed from the Chair, and shall next proceed successively to put forthwith the Question on any Amendments, new Clauses, or Schedules moved by the Government, but no other Amendments, new Clauses, or Schedules, and on any Question necessary to dispose of the stage of the Bill then in progress, and if that stage is the Committee stage of the Bill the Chairman shall report the Bill to the House without Question put, and thereafter Mr Speaker shall next proceed successively to put forthwith the Question on any other questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded, including the Question on Amendments or Schedules moved on the Report stage by the Government, but no other Amendments or Schedules.

No Motion for an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill, and no dilatory Motion on the Bill, or Motion to re-commit the Bill, nor Motion to postpone a Clause, nor Motion that the Chairman do report progress or do leave the Chair, shall be received unless moved by the Government, and the Question on such Motion, if moved by the Government, shall be put forthwith without any debate."

Restoration of Order in Ireland Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

6.0 P.M.

In moving the Second Reading of this Bill, I shall endeavour to deal with it as far as I can Clause by Clause, so that the House will be informed of the object of the Bill, and the purpose of each succeeding Clause. May I say, in reference to a criticism of the right hon. Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean), that this Bill was in draft in June last, but at my request the Cabinet held it back, because I wished to see how the Assize Courts would function during the month of July I had hoped that, in spite of all the difficulties in Ireland, the ordinary Courts would be able to carry on and do their work, in spite of intimidation, of terror, and of other difficulties. Unfortunately, these Courts were unable to function in many cases, because of the failure—this is one of the prime reasons for the introduction of the Bill—of the jurors, both for grand juries and for common juries, to answer their summonses, and to appear in the Court House before the Judge to do their duty. Therefore, trial by jury in those parts of Ireland to which I refer has broken down. It is not the fault of the Judge, who was there in his place; it is not the fault of the officials of the Courts, who were there in their places; it is not the fault of witnesses, who were ready to give evidence. Many prisoners and accused persons were in custody to be tried, and ought to have been tried; but the jurors, owing to intimidation, failed to appear. Therefore in certain parts of Ireland there is no Court before which an accused person can come, and I, for one, believe that an accused person is entitled to an expeditious as well as a fair trial. It is not the fault of the Government that the jurors failed to appear. I have, I think, made it clear to the House that it was the failure of the jurors that made this Bill in the main essential. It is a new position, one that no one deplores more than I do, in the British Empire, where, I believe, never before have jurors failed to answer their summonses and do their duty to their fellow-countrymen.

This Bill does not supersede trial by jury, or the ordinary administration of the criminal or civil courts. It is intended to apply only in those disturbed areas, at the discretion of the Irish Government, where it is impossible for the ordinary tribunals to function, and I can assure the House that this discretion will be used with the sole consideration of meting out justice to the people in the disturbed areas involved. When this discretion is used, it will be used with reluctance, and it will only be used because, unless a special tribunal be set up, there will be no court of law to which an accused person can be brought, and in which justice may be done.

If the House will allow me, I would like to read one or two quotations from those who can speak with the greatest knowledge on the state of affairs in Ireland—I refer to some of His Majesty's Judges. May I say, in reference to those Judges, that under the greatest difficulties, and latterly under great danger, they have never failed to do their best to carry out their high and indispensable functions? May I give an extract from an address to the Court by the Lord Chief Justice of Ireland. I hope the House will forgive me if it be rather a lengthy quotation.

The date is 15th July, and it was an address at the North Tipperary Assizes by the Lord Chief Justice of Ireland.

No, Molony. The Lord Chief Justice said:

"The time had now come for plain speaking. Everyone who felt the slightest interest in the country must regard the present state with anxiety and alarm, and every man or woman in the country should ask himself or herself the question, 'Am I doing my best to bring to an end this mad epidemic of crime which is disgracing my country?' On the answer they gave to this question and the resolve which would spring from it, the future of the country must in a great measure depend. Nobody who faces the facts with a calm and unbiased judgment can deny that if this mad campaign of crime is allowed to continue, the voice of the church is no longer listened to. If the vast majority of the good and peaceful allowed themselves to be intimidated and terrorised by the lawless few, if the Government is unable to give the protection to life and property which the necessities of the situation require, if in short the present situation continues unchecked, then for our country the reign of law was over, the reign of anarchy had commenced. He, however, did not despair. He knew that if the men and women of this country took their courage in their hands and resolved that the fair fame of magnificent Tipperary would be no longer sullied by brutal and cowardly crimes, they had the power and the influence to restore the country to peace and prosperity."

That is the opinion of the Lord Chief Justice of Ireland, and no one can speak with greater knowledge or authority than he can. May I add that every other Judge who went on the Assizes during the month of July past made similar or more severe comments upon the state of crime, and in addition deplored the non-appearance of jurors? And on that point I want the House to bear with me while I read a letter addressed to the jurors at Waterford City, which gives the reason why these men were unable to attend the juries. It is from the headquarters of the Irish Republican Army, and is as follows:

"Take notice that it has come to my knowledge that you have been summoned as a juror at the forthcoming assizes. Now be it known to you that to obey such sum- mons will be considered an act of treason against the Irish Republic, and you are hereby warned that you will do it at your peril.—The Competent Military Authority of the Irish Republican Army."

It was because of that that the jurors at Waterford City, and because of similar notices, that the jurors at other assizes, did not attend. I would remind the House, therefore, that this lawless condition of Ireland and the intimidation which is going on, carried on by the lawless few—to use the words of the Lord Chief Justice—have broken down the jury system in certain parts of Ireland, to the great regret of the Government. It has had this effect also. May I quote the words of Mr. Justice Gibson—

"Regarding the absence of common jurors, they would carry home the knowledge that they had denied justice to a poor little Irish girl who had been cruelly wronged. It was a defiance of the laws of God and man, and must make every honest Irish heart sad as his was to-day."

That refers to the fact that all those persons who had been accused of crime were unable to be tried, were remanded, and are still remaining in prison. One reason why this Bill is urgently needed is that these persons may be immediately tried, and, if innocent, may of course be acquitted, or if not innocent may as quickly as possible get the sentence in keeping with their crime. On the point of those already awaiting trial, may I say that under the head of "political crime and outrage"—the word "political" here has a curious Irish significance.

Let us say all Irish significance. Political crime in Ireland is wrongly, but commonly, called crime in the pursuit of some political end. It involves murder and a number of other offences. Under the head of this alleged political crime, at the end of July last there were in prison 47 convicted prisoners and 76 prisoners awaiting trial. Many of these 76 prisoners are now awaiting trial because of the breakdown of the jury system. I may mention that of the 76 awaiting trial, 27 are charged with the possession of rifles, revolvers, and small arm ammunition or bombs, and 15 are accused, of armed attacks on the police or military, while six are awaiting trial for murder. Of non-political crimes, there are now 75 men and 15 women committed for trial for ordinary criminal offences. On remand there are 65 men and 10 women

I quote these figures to the House hoping to make it clear that it is essential to have some tribunal at any rate before which these prisoners, political or otherwise, can be brought at the earliest opportunity. Hon. Members of the House may differ as to the kind of tribunal, and I frankly confess that it caused a great deal of search and research on my part to come to a conclusion as to the best form of tribunal to be set up, in place of the ordinary tribunal, which has broken down, because of the non-appearance of jurors. It has been suggested that this tribunal might have consisted of Judges, but I felt myself that it is not right to ask these Judges, who occupy a particular and very high position in Irish affairs, and as far as I know a position above the ordinary party conflicts of that country, to undertake duties which were never contemplated by them when they were appointed to their high office. More than that, courts-martial have been working in Ireland for some years past, and I have not seen adverse criticism on the fairness and justice of the procedure or the decisions of any of these courts-martial which have been operating in Ireland. The Bill, therefore, follows the practice now existing in Ireland, and carried on with success.

If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will bear with me, I will tell him. I am making my Second Reading speech as short as I possibly can in order to give the House the longest possible time—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—five hours—to discuss the Bill on its merits, and I should welcome any suggestions that would assist the Irish Government to establish courts to administer justice at this, the most critical time, I think, in Irish history. The reason for the Bill is that a state of disorder prevails over the greater part of Ireland, paralysing the machinery for the administration of justice, the punishment of crime, and the enforcement of public duties. Criminals are protected from arrest, witnesses and jurors are terrorised, local authorities and their officers are encouraged or coerced to repudiate their statutory obligations and duties, all being done in the furtherance of a deliberate plan to bring about a new system of government in Ireland by revolutionary means. As the result, as I have tried to show by illustration, the ordinary law of the land is in abeyance, in certain parts of Ireland. I submit that it is now the paramount duty of the Government to devise, and to put into execution effective measures for the protection of life and property and the primary rights of citizenship. With that end in view, this Bill has been introduced.

I come to the Bill itself, and will deal with Clause 1, Sub-section (1), which I agree with the right hon. Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) is the essential part of the Bill. It gives power to the Government to issue Regulations under the Defence of the Realm (Consolidation) Act, with the object of securing the restoration and maintenance of law and order in Ireland. The scope of the Regulations will be as wide as those of the Defence of the Realm Regulations, and new Regulations can be made from time to time, if this Bill become law, to deal with new and unforeseen contingencies which may arise. Those are very great powers to give to any Government. My submission to the House is that the powers are essential for the administration of justice in certain parts of Ireland, though I, for one, hope it will not be necessary to use them in their entirety, and that as soon as possible the ordinary Courts may resume their functions. I think the most important part of Clause 1 is paragraph ( b ) of Sub-section (2), which sets up a court-martial for a person charged with a crime punishable by death. Let me deal with that for a moment, because I am sure there is great lack of knowledge with reference to courts-martial. In the first place, the court-martial will consist of at least five selected officers, and it will have the great advantage of being advised by a judge-advocate, who, in all these cases, I can assure the House, will be a barrister, and a barrister of standing.

There are some very erroneous ideas that a court-martial consists of a number of reckless officers, who can bring in what decision they like, and inflict what punishment they will. Of course, that is absolutely wrong. A court-martial tries a case under exactly the same rules of evidence as prevail in the ordinary courts of the realm. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Before their finding is promulgated, it is referred to the Commander-in-Chief, who is always advised by a barrister. The finding goes further, and is revised and reviewed by the Judge-Advocate-General in England. I am now dealing with these capital cases. In addition to the officers, or, it may be, as one of the members of this tribunal, we are going to appoint a barrister, or rather a gentleman of legal knowledge and experience, whose legal knowledge and experience will be confirmed either by the Lord Chancellor of Ireland or the Lord Chief Justice of England. That is to make it absolutely certain that any accused person coming before the special tribunal will not only have the advantage of a Judge-Advocate to advise the court on all points of law, but will have the advantage of a man of legal knowledge and experience as one of the m judges, so that there can be no doubt, I submit, as to the justice of the decision to which the court may come.

After having studied many different kinds of courts held at different periods of the world's history, I have convinced myself that it is not possible to have a fairer court in Ireland to-day than the courts set up under this Bill. I look for ward with great interest to some alternative suggestion to the establishment of this special tribunal, which will be composed of men who can have but one interest as members of the tribunal, and that is to see that justice is done. And if there be any flaw in the charge against an accused person, or any weakness in the evidence on which a finding may be based, the accused person will certainly get the full benefit of that, and the finding, on review, may be overruled. I would call the attention of the House particularly to paragraphs ( b ), ( c ) and ( d ) of Sub-section (3), but before passing on to them, I will refer for a moment to paragraph ( a ), relating to ordinary crime. Under Section 1 of the principal Act His Majesty in Council may, by Regulations, authorise the trial by courts-martial, or, in the case of minor offences, by courts of summary jurisdiction. Of course, the House knows that, as the law now stands, local Justices of the Peace are entitled to attend these courts of summary jurisdiction, but I regret that, owing to intimidation and other reasons——

I would say that, owing to intimidation and for other reasons, many justices of the peace have resigned from what has always been looked upon as an honour in Ireland and elsewhere, with the result that there is no certainty these local justices will attend any of the courts of summary jurisdiction. In order to meet that, we have decided—except in Dublin, where stipendiary magistrates sit, as they do in London—to constitute two or more resident magistrates a full quorum with all the powers of a court of summary jurisdiction. I have done this with great reluctance, as I am a believer in local justices of the peace. But, unfortunately, if you cannot depend upon their appearing, you must take other powers.

I referred to paragraphs ( b ), ( c ) and ( d ). The object of these paragraphs is to authorise the extension of the powers incidental to the administration of justice by civil courts to courts-martial. Paragraph ( b ) authorises the extension to them of powers of justices to bind persons, to keep the peace or be of good behaviour; to estreat and enforce recognisances; and also to compel persons to give evidence and to produce, documents. In other words, the setting up of these special tribunals must naturally involve granting to them all the powers of the civil courts, whose places they take in the disturbed parts of Ireland, and these three paragraphs give those powers.

Paragraph ( e ), I admit, is a departure, though I think a necessary departure. It makes provision for the transfer to English or Scottish prisons of persons who have been sentenced in Ireland to imprisonment, whether before or after the passing of this Bill. At present, this power of transfer exists in the case of persons sentenced to penal servitude, but, under the Bill, powers are given to transfer any person who is sentenced to any term of imprisonment. It is most desirable that the Government should possess this power, as certain Irish prisons are unsuitable for certain classes of prisoners. I know from personal investigation that in the English prisons the arrangements, may I say, for the comfort of the prisoners, are much more up-to-date than they are in many of the prisons in Ireland.

The next paragraph in the Bill provides for any of the duties of a coroner and coroner's jury being performed by a Court of Inquiry. In Ireland to-day the jurors summoned to a coroner's inquest have failed to appear, and, in some cases, when they have appeared, I regret that they have made decisions accusing of murder individual officers—soldiers and policemen—who have afterwards become marked men, and, in some cases have been assassinated following the decision of the jury. I submit this is an abuse of the power of a coroner's jury. In many cases the juries have not appeared, and in an increasing number of cases they are not appearing. Therefore, under the Bill we take powers to give to a Court of Inquiry all the powers now enjoyed by a coroner's court. I hope the House will follow me, that this power is taken, because, as in the case of the ordinary Courts, the jury have failed to respond to the summonses in many cases. In other cases they have used their judicial office to make accusations against servants of the Crown, which, as I have said, have sometimes led to their murder.

I now come to a paragraph which has been criticised by the right hon. Member for Peebles, namely, that which gives us power to intercept grants of money to local authorities in Ireland, where those local authorities refuse to levy a rate to pay the compensation, which, by law, is paid under the decision of a judge to persons who suffer either by the death of their husband or other relative, or who suffer because of the burning or destruction of their property. I will read two short paragraphs of a letter sent to every local authority in Ireland pointing out the effects: That has been done, and, I hope, with the authority of the whole House of Commons. I can imagine nothing more unfair than for a judge to levy compensation on a county, say, for the widow of a murdered policeman, and then to find the rating authority decline to levy a rate. She is, therefore, left without the money to which by law she is entitled. For these and other cases, we have taken this power to intercept Exchequer grants, and these grants will be paid by way of compensation, although the burden will remain upon the rating area in which the murder or other criminal injury has taken place.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, before he leaves this Sub-section, is any power given to the Government to extend the time for making claims which have not been made, being prevented by intimidation?

Also, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what has become of the Criminal Injuries (Ireland) Bill; has, it been withdrawn or postponed?

These questions are very relevant. The Criminal Injuries Bill has been introduced. It gives the Executive many further powers in reference to the interception of Exchequer grants. That Bill will go on, because it contains many provisions that we cannot put into paragraphs of this Bill. Among the provisions which the Criminal Injuries Bill contains is one to meet the case just put by the Noble Lord. Whereas at present the time to notify for compensation is restricted to three days, by the Bill it will be extended at the discretion of the Court, so that no person who is intimidated—as some are now—from making his or her claim will suffer in the long run by that intimidation.

No, it will not be passed before the Recess. But certainly it ought to be passed before the end of the year. I think we have powers here sufficient until that Bill become law. I regret both Bills will not become law before we adjourn for the Autumn Vacation, but as that was not possible, we took what powers were essential for the moment. The other Bill will be introduced as soon as possible after we re-assemble- We take powers under this Bill to dispense with juries in civil cases. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir D. Maclean) made great play about that. He spoke about "taking away the liberty of the subject," but the majority of civil cases are now, I believe, heard without juries. This Clause has been put in to meet the wishes of the Irish judges, so that when they go to court, and the jurors fail to appear in civil cases, they will be able to continue their judicial functions, and come to a decision whether there be a jury or not. I see no infringement of the liberty of the subject here.

During the War here in England, under the Juries Act of 1918, we dispensed with juries.

I am sure that anyone who can speak with a knowledge of the courts knows that the majority of civil cases are now tried without juries.

Quite right. My statement is that it is not the case that the Government wish to do away with trial by jury in civil cases. This is put into the Bill, because we do not want failure in the administration of the law if the jury do not appear. If they do appear, this Clause does not operate. If they fail to appear, then the Judge will carry on the trial of civil cases without the assistance of jurors. I submit that it is rather a strain on the phrase, "liberty of the subject," to interpret it as hon. Members do, or to say that it is infringed by doing away with a civil jury where the jury does not appear.

Oh, yes, they are. I have tried to deal, I admit very cursorily, with the different parts of this Bill. I regret if I have missed any main points in the Bill. My prin- cipal desire is to give the House an opportunity of discussing it.

Is it quite clear—I think it is, but I should like the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman—that the law of evidence is not in any way affected by the Bill—that the law of evidence before these Courts will be the same as now exists?

No, no. My right hon. Friend does not do the Government justice. I have had something to do with this Bill, and none of the special tribunals will be set up in any part of England where the ordinary courts can function. That is the first thing. Secondly, these are not courts held in secret. Counsel and solicitors will appear before them, as they appear in other courts. In every court the power is inherent to close its doors against the public, if it consider it essential to do so for the protection of the life of the witnesses who give evidence. Hon. Members must remember that in certain parts of Ireland to-day the man who gives evidence in a criminal case may be a marked man for the rest of his life. I hold that we are justified, or that the court is justified, if it see fit, to close its doors to the public, in order to save the life of essential witnesses in a criminal case.

What is to prevent the prisoner giving the name of the witnesses to his friends?

That may be. But I am giving reasons. This power is inherent in every court. It is not novel to courts-martial. The Bill does give great powers to the Irish Government. I shall do my best, and those who work with me will do their best, to administer it, not in any revengeful and petty way in Ireland. We adopt it with regret and reluctance, but unless we are going to abandon the administration of law in certain parts of Ireland, this Bill is essential. It is emergency legislation. It has been forced on this House by events.

If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will allow me to proceed, I shall be glad. I hope he will put his case some time during the Debate: he is certainly very capable of doing it. The Bill will appeal, I think, to the common sense and justice, not only of the House, but, I believe, to the majority of the Irish people.

The point is that to-day the majority of the Irish people, on the admission of everybody who can speak with authority, are under a reign of terror.

As far as I am concerned, I can answer the hon. Gentleman. He knows that I am a Home Ruler as old, if not older, than he. It is because I am a sincere Home Ruler that I have said that the powers under this Bill will only be brought into operation when the ordinary courts cannot operate. It is because I have a reverence for the law and the system of law that I delayed the introduction of this Bill until the Assize Courts broke down in July. The Bill is a piece of necessary machinery. I admit at once it is not a remedy. Nobody who knows the procedure of the House of Commons can expect to find a remedy in a Bill of this kind. The remedy, in the long run, must be to bring the majority of the Irish people in accord with the Government, whatever it may be, in Ireland. We are all agreed as to that. The fault is not with this Government or with this House. The fundamental fault is that the Irish people themselves cannot agree on any scheme whatsoever that will appeal to the House of Commons or to the people of the United Kingdom. I must repeat it is a profound regret to me to have to introduce a Bill of this kind, but I consider it a paramount duty of the Government to meet the reign of terror that now afflicts Ireland. The Irish question is a question for Ireland, for the United Kingdom, for the Empire— if you like, for the English-speaking world. But murders, assassinations, intimidations are questions which involve the whole fabric of civilisation. In this matter I submit that this House is the custodian of civilisation, and that this Bill will help us to break the Terror and to bring to justice the Terrorists.

I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the lucid manner and the terseness with which he has discharged what, I am sure, must have been an extremely distasteful task. As I listened to him my memory was carried back some 30 years. In the first Session in which I sat in this House I heard from that Bench and box opposite a very similar speech from the then Chief Secretary for Ireland. Jurors in those days could not be got. Judges' charges were read, as they have been read to-day, to show the necessity of coercive legislation, but the difference and the very significant difference is this: What was then proposed, and is now on the Statute Book—though it had one feature in common with the present Bill, that it was permanent in its proposed duration—did not go further than to take certain limited classes of crime from the jurisdiction of jurors, and transfer they to the jurisdiction of the resident magistrate. It provided instead of setting up these martial tribunals that, where jurors had shown themselves indisposed or afraid to return a verdict, there should be a change of venue and power to summon special juries. That was a very mild measure compared with this, but it was opposed tooth and nail by the whole of the Liberal party under the Leadership of Mr. Gladstone, and instead of occupying 10 or 12 hours in its consideration, it took three, four or five months of the Session, the House sitting up night after night until 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning. That is the way milk and water coercion was met in those days.

The position of Ireland was grave then. It is far graver now, and no one who feels it his duty to oppose the Second Reading of this Bill will dispute the gravity of the situation from the point of view of social order, and this has not been exaggerated at all by the Chief Secretary. The law in a large part of Ireland is being openly defied, and certain categories of crime, and very serious crime, are going undetected and unpunished. A considerable number of civil and criminal disputes are disposed of by un-authorised tribunals, and the King's Courts threaten very soon, if matters go on as they are, to be empty both of suitors and prisoners. Even in the annals, the sombre annals, of Irish disturbances, there has been no parallel to the existing state of things in Ireland, and it is indeed a reproach and a scandal to British statesmanship. I am not sure myself that the worst feature of the case is not the amazing apathy with which, to all appearance, this tragic breakdown is regarded by the great mass of the public on this side of St. George's Channel.

It is impossible to paint the picture, if you paint it accurately, in too somber colours. The first question which we have to ask ourselves now that you, Mr. Speaker, have put from the Chair the Motion, "That the Bill be read a Second time," is whether this Bill, if it finds its way to the Statute Book, will be a corrective or even a palliative. In my own view it will not. I have seen in my time many proposals of a coercive character—some of them have passed into law and some have not—but I do not hesitate to say that in my judgment of them all this Bill is the worst in conception and the least likely to produce the results which it is designed to secure. I am going to give reasons for that opinion. The Bill starts from a thoroughly vicious point of departure. It is an artificial extension of the Defence of the Realm Act, the sole purview of which was the safety of the realm in time of war with an external enemy. Without any reference to or opportunity of review by Parliament, it confers upon the Executive a power—unlimited in point of time, because there is no fixed date, for the termination of this Bill—to issue decrees, because these regulations will be merely Executive decrees, which are to have statutory authority, which are to supersede the ordinary constitutional safeguards of personal liberty, and which are to subject, if the Executive so please, the whole or any part of the population of Ireland to the unlimited and unappealable jurisdiction of military tribunals. I doubt very much whether in the long history of Coercion Acts from the time of the Union there has ever been one so drastic in its character and so opposed to all our elementary ideas of constitutional liberty.

That is by no means all. By a Subsection of the first Clause, to which I do not think the Secretary for Ireland re- ferred, the regulations to be made by the Executive at its own discretion may contain such "incidental, supplementary, and consequential provisions as may be necessary for the carrying out of the purpose of the Act." What does that mean? I never met with language so vaguely and ambiguously dangerous as that. I can well conceive that under that provision the Executive would be held by a court of law to have the power to require, for instance, railwaymen or dockers to remain at work, or to perform particular kinds of work, subject to penalties at the discretion of the Executive, and not by the authority of Parliament.

What security is that? It would also, in my judgment, permit the imprisonment of persons without any trial at all. You may say, and my right hon. Friend went so far as to say, that Ireland is in a state of passive or of covert rebellion, which would justify even Cromwellian treatment. That treatment needs as its first condition a Cromwell, and I am not sure that, great as my respect is, collectively or individually, for the Government, I see a Cromwell at this moment amongst them. Does anyone who knows anything about Ireland and the actual conditions of life there suppose that this Bill—which, severe and ruthless as it is, after all, does not fall a good deal short of the Cromwellian standard—does anyone suppose that it will enable an impotent Executive to be better able to grapple with the situation? To show that I am not indulging in vague general charges, I want to come to an analysis of the situation with which the Irish Executive have to deal.

What are the real difficulties with which you have to contend? Why do certain classes of crime in Ireland go undetected and unpunished? The reason is threefold. It is not so simple as the Chief Secretary seems to imagine. In the first place, criminals, or persons suspected of being criminals, cannot be arrested or identified; they cannot be found or made amenable to the law. In the second place, witnesses will not come forward to give evidence against those who are suspected or accused. In the third place—and this is the only part of the problem with which my right hon. Friend has dealt—even if both the criminal and the evidence are forthcoming, the jurors will not attend, or, if they do attend, they will not convict.

7.0 P.M.

How is this Bill going to help? This is a practical problem of administration. How is this Bill going to help us in dealing with that situation? It is true that this measure abolishes trial by jury. It is true that it puts on the Bench instead of trained and experienced judges a more or less casual batch of military officers, gallant and excellent men, no doubt, in their own sphere of life in matters of discipline with which they are conversant, but wholly unskilled and inexperienced in law. Does anyone suppose that they will help to bring criminals to justice? I say nothing, or at least only a word, about the courts-martial themselves. In their own sphere and subject to their own limitations—I have seen a good deal of them one way and another—they perform their duty conscientiously, and on the whole with a tendency rather to leniency than lo harshness; at least that is my experience. When you come to such a provision as that which is contained in Sub-section ( b ), which for the first time enables a court-martial to try the crime of murder or any crime punishable by death, the right hon. Gentleman seems to think he has got over the obvious, and I should have thought the absolutely insuperable, objection, because he has provided that the court-martial is to be assisted by a person of legal knowledge and experience. I hardly thought that proposal was seriously intended when I first read it, and I trust the Government, on reflection, will see that they cannot possibly persist in it. What is the good of setting up these courts-martial if the only practical result is that you get rid of the difficulty which arises from the non-attendance of jurors or the failure of juries to convict, and at the same time take no security, no additional security, beyond what your existing machinery gives you to make the criminal amenable to justice or to induce witnesses to give evidence? Even a court-martial cannot try a man who cannot be arraigned. Even a court-martial, the old drum-head court-martial, cannot convict and condemn a man with- out evidence. This Bill, from the point of view of practical administration, is, in my opinion, not worth the paper on which it is printed. It does not get in any way down to the root of the evil. On the contrary, it will inflame resistance and resentment by generating, even among those who at present are not disaffected to the Government, a new and bitter sense of humiliation, and it will increase and intensify hostility to the law. In my judgment, it will not help but it will hinder and hamper the Executive in the discharge of that which is already an almost impossible task.

I have said so much with regard; to the actual provisions of the Bill, although I have by no means exhausted all there is to be said. On the question that the Bill be read a Second time an issue is raised which goes far beyond the- merits or demerits of this particular proposal. That issue is, and I state it at once in the clearest terms in the hope of eliciting from the Government a definite pronouncement, what is the real policy and attitude of the Government in regard to the whole question of Irish administration and legislation. You cannot separate the one from the other. The situation is one of a gravity that cannot be exaggerated, and for that situation I am bound to say, and I say it quite frankly, the Government themselves are, in my opinion, largely responsible. [HON. MEMBERS: "You, you!"]

I will attempt to justify the statement I have just made. There is no need to go back for a very long while. [HON. MEMBERS: "1914!" and "1916!"] Let us go back two years——

I am not going to pursue anything in the nature of antiquarian research. It will be sufficient for the moment to go back only two years, to the spring of 1918, the time when the Irish Convention, which had been sitting for some months, was on the eve of making its Report. The conditions in Ireland, the atmosphere there, and the temper of the bulk of the Irish people were better than they had been for years. Some said they were better than they had ever been within the memory of man. I think the proceedings of the Convention show it. That moment was chosen and chosen deliberately by the Government to propose to Parliament the application to Ireland of compulsory military service. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] They never got compulsory military service, and the promise which the Government made was that simultaneously and concurrently with the prosecution of that measure they would bring forward, and as far as they could push into law, a large and liberal measure of self-government—that promise was never fulfilled. The year 1918 was allowed to pass. The year 1919 was allowed to pass, and no step whatever was taken to redeem it. What was the effect in Ireland? It was to destroy what little relics remained in the minds and judgment of the Irish people of faith in Parliamentary action. The Irish Constitutional Party was at that time winning hands down.

In the spring of 1918 there were three bye-elections in Ireland, in every one of which the Constitutional Nationalist candidate had a majority over the Sinn Fein candidate. When the General Election of 1918 took place, in the winter of that year, the Constitutional party was practically swept out of public life. Up to that moment they were holding, and well holding, their own. What has been the result? It has been not only the growing predominance of Sinn Fein, but what has so often happened in the history of Irish revolutionary movements, a parasitical organisation in the form of murder clubs sprang up.

That is totally untrue. There is not a shadow of foundation for it. It has been publicly contradicted more than once, and apologised for. However that has no relevance whatever to what I am saying, absolutely none. I was saying that the result has been not only a growing predominance on the part of what I may call an overt revolutionary movement, as described by the Chief Secretary, but an increase of these agencies, whose relations to the main body it is very difficult for anyone not having fuller knowledge than we possess to conjecture—which work not by constitutional means, but by methods of crime and outrage. I feel bound to add that the companion Bill which the Government has produced to the one now before us, is one which has not gone an inch on the road towards conciliating feeling, towards meeting national sentiment, or towards paving the way to a settlement. In the course of the last week or two we have had some very remarkable indications of that fact. Only a week ago a resolution was received from not a Nationalist body, but from the Dublin Chamber of Commerce, which stated quite openly that the Bill the Government has introduced satisfies no section of Irish opinion. We have had in London during the last two days, I am not sure it is not over here still, a deputation from the South of Ireland composed of leaders of the commercial and professional life in the City of Cork who also declare their hostility to that Bill on the double ground that no section of the community in any part of Ireland wants it, and that, if passed, it will still further increase discontent and disorder.

The question I want to put, and whatever may be said to deputations, this House is entitled to a reply—for this is the place and the time to give such answers—the question I wish to put, and to which I hope a plain reply will be given is, do the Government or do they not adhere to that Bill? Is it or is it not their last word? A great deal hangs on the answer to that question. For my own part I stated a little more than six months ago, when I was a candidate for the suffrages of the electors of Paisley, that in my view the matter had reached a stage at which it was impossible to procure peace—appeasement would be a better word—or anything in the nature of satisfaction to Irish sentiment by any Measure which did not to all intents and purposes put Ireland on the same footing as our great self-governing Dominions. I am not one of those who have any cast-iron definition of what Dominion Home Rule is. It is an elastic term. We have not applied the same Measure of Dominion Home Rule to Canada, Australia or South Africa, but in every case special allowances have been made for local conditions and for racial and religious differences. In that sense it is not cast-iron, but in essence everyone understands what it means. It is the type applied to the self-governing Dominions throughout the British Empire. For my part I am not in the least scared by the spectre of an Irish Republic, and I will tell the House why. If you once give to Ireland a large liberal and adequate Measure of Home Rule on Dominion lines——

I did not, but I am prepared to offer it now, because I want to solve the problem.

I am dealing with that question. I say I am not in the least scared by the spectre of an Irish Republic, because I am confident that if you give the Irish people as a whole a large, liberal, and adequate measure of Home Rule on Dominion lines, their common sense, their faculty of enlightened self interest, will prevent them from belittling their country by cutting it adrift from the great associations and traditions of the British Empire, and by leaving it out in the cold, no longer sharing in the partnership and in the inheritance which every true Irishman desires. I do not believe an Irish Republic is a practical possibility. If you deal with Ireland on the lines, and in the spirit which I have been trying to indicate, the cry for an Irish Republic will very soon dwindle and become extinct. [An HON. MEMBER: "Supposing you are wrong."] I may be wrong, but that is the view I take. The matter of importance is what is the policy of His Majesty's Government? Here are these two Bills. They represent, so far as we know, the considered policy of the Government at this moment. They are the contribution which the Government offers for the solution, so far as it can be solved for the time being, of the Irish problem. Is that all they have got to give us? The only way in which you can really grapple with the problem of social order in Ireland—grapple with it, I mean, not by mere temporary expedients, but by going down to the very root—is by taking the Irish people into your confidence, if it be possible and practical, by means of a Convention or same machinery of that sort. Take them into your confidence. Who desires not to take the people of Ireland into their confidence in these days of self-determination? If you pay no regard to their wishes in defiance of national sentiment, that is the way where madness lies. There is one way and one way only. Take the Irish people into your confidence, and associate them with you in your deliberations and counsel in the preparation and development of a large and liberal schemes of self-government on those lines. By that means, and by that means only, will you ever arrive at a real settlement of the Irish problem.

I have rarely, in this House, heard a more inadequate or futile contribution towards the solving of a great emergency from a first-rate statesman.

What is the position. There is murder in Ireland, murder of officials of the Crown. Sixty or 70 police officers have been shot in a cowardly fashion in the streets and in places of worship. What is the contribution which is made by my right hon. Friend who was once responsible for law and order in this country for eight years as chief adviser of the Crown? It is a wretched medley of bad history and vague rhetoric.

You might have imagined, listening to his speech, that the history of Ireland began two years ago, that there was no Ireland when my right hon. Friend was Prime Minister, that there was no Ireland in 1916——

And that there was no rebellion in Ireland—[An HON. MEMBER: "And no Bolsheviks!"]—and that in 1918 Ireland was a paradise of people who respected the law!

If the hon. Gentleman does not cease interrupting I shall have to ask him to leave the Chamber.

What was the position in 1918? In 1918 an army of over 150,000 men was enlisted, who were engaged in a treasonable conspiracy, who were engaged in negotiations with the Germans—[An HON. MEMBER: "What about Ulster?"]—in correspondence with them, who had undertaken to attack Great Britain two months after the German offensive. This is the paradise in Ireland to which he wishes to bring us back. Give us back the good old days of 1918! That was the time we discovered documents in the pockets of the men who were at that moment and are now the leaders of the South and West of Ireland, showing that there was an arrangement between them and the Germans to attack us at the moment of our greatest peril.

At any rate, what is the use of talking about 1918 as if everything was all right at that time? If my right hon. Friend goes back, he can find a time when Ireland might have been settled. There was an opportunity. It was not settled. It was not the present Government which was responsible. I acknowledge that I am just as responsible as he is, but, at any rate, do not let us come here and say that it was when he left. There is no Cromwell here. There ( pointing to Mr. Asquith ) is the Cromwell.

I must ask the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh to behave himself. He knows these constant interruptions are disorderly.

The right hon. Gentleman has accused the Government. He said they are responsible for the present condition of things. Are we really not to be allowed to defend ourselves? When this firm Cromwellian hand is no longer here—when you had peace and contentment and no rebellion in Ireland in 1916—then you see trouble in Ireland. What a travesty of the history of Ireland! But what is his contribution? He said that thirty years ago he remembered a mild Coercion Bill being introduced into this House, which he opposed, following Mr. Gladstone. He might have gone back four years and found two far more drastic Coercion Bills introduced by Mr. Gladstone. Mr. Gladstone did not object to coercion, if it was necessary to enforce law and order in Ireland. He produced at least three Coercion Acts in the course of a single Parliament.

They did not fail. Mr. Gladstone came to the conclusion that it was necessary to confer self-government on Ireland. Let me take back my right hon. Friend to the situation in 1887, when the Coercion Act was introduced. What was the position then? Mr. Gladstone's position was not that he opposed any measure of coercion, in order to compel respect for the law or to punish offenders. That was not his position. What he said was—and this is important and relevant: "Here I have a proposal which is accepted by the Irish representatives, by men who speak on behalf of the whole of Ireland. Grant that, and you get peace." It was not that he objected to coercion. What he said was, "Here is a proposal which will give you peace, because the elected representatives of Ireland are in favour of it." Can my right hon. Friend make a single proposal now which the elected representatives of Ireland can accept? If he cannot, he is not in Mr. Gladstone's position. He came with vague and, I do not mind saying it, ill-considered suggestions about Dominion Home Rule, plus a Convention. Does he recollect that the Sinn Feiners who now command the South and West of Ireland decline to have anything whatever to do with a Convention? Can he name a single man in Ireland who can speak with authority on behalf of the Irish people who will accept his Dominion Home Rule? Can he?

The Sinn Feiners, with Mr. de Valera at their head, have distinctly stated they will not accept it.

Who speaks on behalf of Ireland? My right hon. Friend said that it was not for him to speak; it was for the Government. It is not for the Government, or for him. The elected representatives of Ireland have declared that they will not take anything short of a Republic. Is there anyone in this House, or out of this House, who can speak with authority? [An HON. MEMBER: "Kenworthy!"] Who is there who has any authority? [HON. MEMBERS: "Carson!"] My right hon. Friend can speak with great authority for the N.E. of Ireland, and he has done so. Name any man who has an equal authority to speak for the South and West of Ireland, who is prepared to say that, if Dominion Home Rule is granted to the South and West, Ireland will accept it.

My hon. Friend must allow me to develop this in my own way. I am going to deal with that later on. What I want to put now is this: The right hon. Gentleman has shirked the situation. He will not accept responsibility for enforcing law in Ireland. He gets out of it by saying that, if you were only to grant Dominion Home Rule, it would not be necessary to enforce the law; the Irish people would accept the law. I ask him now, what authority has he for that statement? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer!"]

I am surprised that such an obviously irrelevant question should be asked. I said that I was expressing my own opinion; I do not claim any authority to speak on behalf of the Irish people.

We are to allow policemen to be slaughtered—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"] We are to allow intimidation to go on. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!" and "Divide!"]

I must appeal to hon. Members not to interrupt. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley was listened to in comparative silence, and T think that the least hon. Members can do is to listen to the reply.

On a point of Order. May I direct your attention to the fact that, owing to the action of the Government, most of us will have no opportunity of expressing our opinion at all?

Surely that is a reason for listening. May I point out that interruption only prolongs a speech. The less interruption there is, the shorter the speech, and the more time there is for hon. Members to discuss the matter.

This is the position: My right hon. Friend made a statement. He said, "I am against your Bill for enforcing order," but he does not suggest any alternative method—none. He says, however, that, if you grant Dominion Home Rule, it will be unnecessary. I asked him what was his authority, and he said, "I have no authority at all except my own opinion." He does not know that the Irish representatives—[ Interruption ]—I must really ask for the civility which is accorded to every Member in this House——

I must warn the hon. Member for East Edinburgh that, if he cannot control himself, I shall have to ask him to leave the House. With his knowledge and experience he should set a good example.

That again, I say, was not Mr. Gladstone's position. Mr. Gladstone in 1887, whether that Bill was right or whether it was wrong, could have turned round to 80 Irish Members, newly elected, with a leader commanding the confidence of the Irish people, and he could have said. "Give us that Bill, and you are at peace." Can my right hon. Friend point to anyone in Ireland with any authority corresponding to that, or with any authority at all? He says, "No, I can only put my own opinion." I again say, and I say it without offence, are we to allow policemen to be assassinated——

Are we to allow intimidation, murder and outrage to go on in Ireland without taking any measures at all—executive measures, if necessary—to protect the agents of the Crown, merely because one Member in this House, however distinguished, has opinion for which he cannot quote a single tittle of evidence from Ireland? I will go further than that. My right ton. Friend said he would give Dominion Home Rule. Would he? Dominion Home Rule involves an Army and a Navy.

Yes, necessarily. There is not a single Dominion which has not the power to set up an Army and a Navy—not one. There is not a single Dominion that has not an Army; and if it has not a Navy, it is because it has not set it up. It has full power to do so. Would my right hon. Friend give them the power to set up an Army and a Navy in Ireland? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I will go beyond that. Under Dominion Home Rule—these are serious questions; let the House believe they are not debating questions, they go to the very root of the matter—[ Interruption. ] I do not know why that should be a matter for laughter. I have had to deal with deputations from Ireland and England, and those are the two issues to which I have had no answer yet. What is the other point? The whole of the ports of Ireland would be under the control of an Irish Parliament. Is it proposed that that should be conceded?

It is not a question of cross-examination; it is a question of finding out what has really been proposed. I am asking my right hon. Friend, because this is vital——

I have expressed an opinion, and I express it again, but I want to know, first of all, when you are making vague offers to Ireland, what you really mean. Our Bill may be a good Bill or it may be a bad one, but it is all in Clauses fully denned. I want to know what is the alternative. Take the question of the ports. We know perfectly well that those ports are the most dangerous spots in the British Empire, and I speak with some knowledge. Are those ports to be handed over to a Dominion Parliament? These are questions to which I should like an answer.

It is idle to talk about self-determination, as my right hon. Friend did, when he did not mean it! Self-determination means that the Irish people are to get exactly the government for which they ask, even if they ask for a Republic. My right hon. Friend does not mean that. Why should he use phrases of that kind when the situation is so full of explosive material? What has done more harm in Ireland than anything is the impression that we make promises to Ireland which we do not intend to carry out.

Why are they made here to-day at this Table? Dominion Home Rule is not intended, and yet the phrase will go through Ireland to-morrow on the authority of my right hon. Friend. Self-determination is not intended, and yet that phase will travel right through Ireland and America, and everyone will say, "Do not accept this Home Rule Bill. If you want Dominion Home Rule, why should you accept it? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley has offered self-determination." These are the things that give the impression to Ireland that British statesmen make offers and promises that they do not intend to fulfil [AN HON. MEMBER: "What about your land legislation?"] I am quite prepared to defend that. We are now discussing the Irish question. I come to the right hon. Gentleman's criticism of the Bill. He said that these Courts are military Courts; that they are the sort of Courts which would be set up if they were for the defence of the Realm. Is not this intended for the defence of the Realm? Who started the military business in Ireland? [HON. MEMBERS: "Carson!"]

It started in Ireland itself. We have now something which calls itself an Irish Republican Army.

They issue their decrees, signed by generals and captains. [HON. MEMBERS: "Gallopers!"] They themselves declare that they are at war with the British Empire. Who has declared war? [HON. MEMBERS: "Carson!"] War has been declared by something which calls itself the Irish Republican Brotherhood.

Whatever it is called—and they cannot complain when, if they declare a state of war there, the conditions of war have been applied. My right hon. Friend says these powers will not achieve their purpose. Well it very rarely happens that any Measure that is carried through the House of Commons achieves the whole purpose which its founders anticipated. But take the three points he puts. What are they? The first is men cannot be arrested. The second is witnesses, and the third is juries. With regard to the jury he admitted that there you provide not a remedy but a substitute. With regard to witnesses he says this will not enable you to get them. It will not enable you to arrest criminals, but you have got at the present moment prisoners in prison. We have got 76, six on a charge of murder. We have got witnesses. Under the present system you cannot try the prisoners because you cannot constitute a court. Under this Bill you can try them. What is it that makes law obeyed, apart from the will of the people? It is the certainty of punishment. In Ireland you have substituted for certainty of punishment certainty of immunity from punishment. Under those conditions, apart altogether from the public sentiment in Ireland, you have got a sense that the criminal can always escape, and reckless men count on that. I do not say that you can substitute the certainty of punishment, but at any rate you can do something which is between the certainty of punishment and the certainty of escape, and you can always put a doubt in the mind of the criminal whether he will escape. [An HON. MEMBER: "Like the Kaiser!"] That is going to make a difference, and a very substantial difference in Ireland. My hon. Friend (Mr. Devlin) asked me a few minutes ago what it was that we proposed. We put forward our proposals quite definitely.

Can my hon. Friend put forward any proposals of his own that would be accepted by anybody in Ireland?

Yes. The right hon. Gentleman has challenged me. He will still find my solution of the Irish question and the solution of all those members of the Convention who signed the Report, which stands as our recorded opinion and which we believe would be acceptable to Ireland. I am the only one up to now who has put forward a solution. I want to know what you think of it.

I will tell my hon. Friend what I think of it, and I say so on absolute and irrefutable evidence, that it is a proposal not accepted by the majority of Nationalist Ireland. It may be a good one; it may have merits. My hon. Friend suggests it may be the best one. But it has this fundamental defect, that the vast majority of the people of Ireland repudiate it.

Why does the right hon. Gentleman challenge myself and other Members of this House? When we put forward proposals with very strong and powerful opinion behind them his statesmanlike answer as Prime Minister is to fling them back in our faces.

No, I have not treated the hon. Member's suggestion in that way. I have objected to vague phrases. I do not object to my hon. Friend because he has put forward a clearly defined, elaborated proposal which is thoroughly intelligible to everyone. I am not objecting to it on that ground. I put that in a totally different category.

This is rather important. I want to put this to the right hon. Gentleman. If the proposals incorporated in the Convention's Report, which I signed, are submitted to a plébiscite of the Irish people, and if the majority of the Irish people agree to them, will he constitute them an Act of Parliament and pass it through this House?

I hope the House of Commons will notice the "ifs." [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer!"] I am giving my answer. My answer is this: It is no use getting up in this House and saying, "If Ireland accepts this will you agree?" Someone else says, "If Ireland accepts that will you agree?" I again say that if anyone with authority to speak on behalf of Ireland, whether that authority is established by a plebiscite or by election, comes with definite proposals, which are within the clear limitations which I laid down the other day—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ifs!"]—am I not entitled to an "if"?—that is a definite proposition for the Government to consider. The position with regard to that, and I do not wish in the least to avoid it, is that no one wants to carry a coercion Act if you can secure the assent of the population of Ireland to the law. Everyone in this country would prefer a partnership based upon goodwill and common action to the present situation, where once or twice in a generation the two peoples are in a state of war against each other. Everyone would prefer a settlement, but it is no use talking about a settlement until someone is prepared to appear on the other side with authority to settle it. There are proposals which we might not on the merits think the best method of settling Ireland. There are proposals put forward which great men like Mr. Gladstone turned down because they did not approve of them, Dominion Home Rule being amongst the number. There are proposals with regard to finance which we might regard as unfair. But Great Britain would be prepared to make great concessions for peace and goodwill and partnership. That would be a different proposition.

Let us assume for a moment that we take the view of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Asquith)—that you could set up Dominion Home Rule. There is no man who thinks you can set up Dominion Home Rule without reservations. My right hon. Friend has refused to answer me, but I say without fear of contradiction that if he were on this Bench he would not propose Dominion Home Rule without reservations. [HON. MEMBERS: "He has said so!"] The forces of the Crown, the Army and the Navy, would be excepted. You would have to get special provisions for the defence of the ports. More than that, whatever you do, by every pledge given by every party, including the Labour party, through its spokesman at the time, there must be no settlement accepted which would involve the forcing of Ulster into any Home Rule Parliament. Those are three very definite reservations to Dominion Home Rule. And when Dominion Home Rule is talked of, I think it is very important, when so much mischief has been done by misapprehension in the past, that there should be none in the future. Those three reservations I believe the hon. Member (Mr. Devlin) included in his scheme, although I cannot for the moment recall his speech. Supposing you proposed it, what would happen? The men who speak on behalf of the majority would repudiate it. They would say, "Here they are on the run, press them on, we will get our independent Republic." No. Things which are worth doing for the sake of securing a settlement and an agreement are in a totally different category when you put them forward as proposals on their merits. I do not believe it is the best settlement for Ireland. I believe the scheme we put forward is the very best scheme for Ireland.

Ulster has accepted it, it is true; but no one is prepared to accept in the South and West of Ireland anything short of an independent Republic.

You can goon trying every scheme, but that is not the way to settle Ireland. It is the way to unsettle Ireland. Since I had the privilege of meeting the Trade Union Deputation in this country, what has happened? My right hon. Friends represent the whole of organised labour in this country, and they came forward with proposals. I said to them, "If there is anyone who has got authority to speak on behalf of Ireland my colleagues and are prepared within these limitations to discuss them." There have been at least two answers. The first came from organised labour in Ireland The whole of Irish organised labour met at Cork, and, in words which were hardly veiled, they practically told the Trade Union Congress to mind its own business.

Is the right hon. Gentleman alluding to the last Deputation we had or the first, that went to Ireland?

8.0 P.M.

The meeting at Cork was after both, therefore I assume it was an answer to both. There was a meeting of organised labour at Cork, where they passed a resolution to say that they would have no meddling by British Labour in the business at all. That is the first answer. What is the second answer? I believe it was given by the Leader of the Sinn Fein party, which commands a majority of Irish representation at present, by Mr. De Valera, a member of this House. His answer was, "If the British Prime Minister choses to send envoys to meet the envoys of the Irish Republic to negotiate a Treaty, I should be quite willing to do so. But I would not think of anything short of Cuban Independence." That is the answer given deliberately, and another answer was given by a member of the Sinn Fein party in Liverpool on Monday. Under these conditions, what is the use of saying, "If you drop this Bill and propose something that we have got, it will be all right"? Meanwhile the murders go on. The outrages go on. The defiance of the law goes on. Confusion in Ireland goes on, and I suppose the Irish Executive and the British Government are to take no steps to protect the people who are there as emissaries of the Crown, at the request of the Crown, who are servants of the Crown, who are servants of the Empire—yea, the servants of this House. It is of no use shutting your eyes to the facts in Ireland, and the fundamental fact is—I have said it repeatedly in this House—that there is no proposal which the British Government can put forward which is acceptable to any party that has authority to speak on behalf of Ireland. The authentic representatives of the Irish people demand something which Britain can never concede except as the result of disaster and defeat, and that is secession. We cannot accept it. It would be fatal to the security of the Empire. Until, therefore, Irish opinion accepts the fundamental, indefeasible fact that Britain will never concede those terms, it is futile to attempt to propose alternative schemes for their consideration. They decline to accept the autonomy of Ulster. They decline to accept the authority of the Crown. They decline to accept the defence of the realm. These are three fundamental conditions. What is the use, then, of talking about schemes of self-determination and of Dominion Home Rule until, at any rate, some gleam of sanity is introduced into the minds of those who are responsible at the present moment for directing the majority of Irish opinions?

I think there is a prospect that Ireland is reconsidering the extravagance of its demand. I believe there are hopeful signs, but not yet. Speaking as one who has been watching things with very grave anxiety, sometimes with despair and sometimes with hope, but always with an intense desire to negotiate peace between these two great peoples—the most important peace to the British Empire—I say deliberately that I cannot see at this moment any fair prospect of a satisfactory measure of conciliation acceptable to both peoples, and that is what we ought to aim at. Britain will make sacrifices, and Ireland must also sacrifice extravagant demands and too extravagant ideas. I think that will be done. I think there is a feeling growing up in Ireland that they are seeking the impossible, and that all they will get is anarchy, confusion, and trouble, and that the Irish people will be the main victims of it. I think that is sinking into the minds, the hearts, the consciences, and the common sense of the people. Meanwhile, speaking on behalf of this House of Commons, which is responsible for sending these men there to protect life, to establish law, and to maintain in Ireland the authority of the Empire—which is not a thing to sneer at—an Empire in which I hope to see Ireland a proud partner, I say that it is our duty to see that every device, every resource, every protection is used to prevent these people from being massacred in the performance of their duty.

The speech of the right hon. Gentleman has left me with a feeling of deep disappointment. I did think that he would say something to give Irishmen the hope that they would be allowed to govern themselves according to their own ideals, and that he would try, anyhow, to assuage the pre- sent strife which bids fair to overwhelm civilisation in that country. I agree that a Convention at the present time is impossible. I agree with him that he cannot negotiate with the Sinn Fein leaders. Anyone who went to the Convention or attempted to negotiate with him on behalf of Sinn Fein would get a bullet. That is no reason for not trying to bid against Sinn Fein for moderate Irish opinion. I believe there is a great change of opinion showing itself in Ireland today. The resolution of the Dublin Chamber of Commerce, an almost uniformly Unionist body, in favour of the withdrawal of the Home Rule Bill and the concession of self-government, subject only to the condition that Ireland should remain within the Empire and Ulster should not be coerced, is a very remarkable portent to people who know Dublin. As far as I can judge from interviews and from correspondence, there is a strong feeling among life-long Unionists that the time has come when they must be prepared to sacrifice their own safeguards rather than to allow the country to drift further along the road to disaster. We had hoped that the Prime Minister might give this moderating influence a chance. He cannot negotiate with Sinn Fein, and others have to make the bricks with which Irish peace is to be built. Unless he will make an offer which will appeal to moderate men there is no straw with which these bricks can possibly be made. He has never really tested the effect of offering such a settlement as would satisfy moderate people in the South.

The present Home Rule Bill has not a friend outside Ulster. The bulk of Irish popular opinion feels that the Government have broken faith with them. They feel that the new Home Rule Bill, which has been substituted for the Act of 1914, does not meet their national claim and is a trick. That is, no doubt, very absurd and very wrong-headed, but the fact remains that that is in their minds, and that the bulk of the people, actively or passively, are now on the side of Sinn Fein. It is said, and it is very easy to say, that you must not make an offer to Ireland until order has been re-established. That seems to me as if you were to say to a sick man, "I will not begin to treat you; I will not perform a surgical operation until you are on the road to recovery." Surely the time to try to find s, treatment is now. It would have been wiser to settle before Sinn Fein had captured the instruments of Government. Assume that you do restore order by repression, do you think that the country will then be in a mind to consider and accept an offer of settlement on its merits? Blood feuds last very long in Ireland, and all these centuries should have taught the British Government that they never lead to peace. The Leader of the House used a strong passage in his speech this afternoon about the resentment already smouldering in England, which might burst into flame with a little more provocation. England is slow to anger, but does he think that if that resentment does burst into flame, that after the desolating ravages of civil war, England will be in a fit temper to offer what might bring peace to Ireland? The first thing to do is to withdraw the present Home Rule Bill or to undertake such Amendments as will make it acceptable to moderate opinion. It now only satisfies Ulster. It is a red rag to everybody else.

Let the Prime Minister substitute a much more generous measure, giving Ireland complete control of her own finance and full responsibility for her own internal peace. Above all, do not talk about Dominion Home Rule. I agree with what the Prime Minister said, that Dominion Home Rule would not be applicable to Ireland. Obviously, owing to the naval importance of that country, you cannot give them control of the ports in the way that you can give that control to the great Dominions. Besides that, both the terms "Dominion" and "Home Rule" stink in the nostrils of very many people in Ireland. They do not want to be reminded of British dominion, nor do they want to be reminded of the frauds which they consider are associated with so-called Home Rule. Start afresh and call your settlement by some such name as Commonwealth Government, or some term which cannot be by any ingenuity twisted into a term of race inferiority. I agree that an offer to Sinn Fein Ireland to-day is a gamble, and I will notput it higher than to say that it might win the prize of Irish co-operation. To go on as you are going is not even a gamble. It is as certain a loss as it is to throw your money into the sea. It is not England that is to take the risk; it is the moderate people who have identified themselves with British control, and who would have to pay the price if the experiment does not succeed; but I believe that, in their interests as much as anyone's interests, it is important to bid before it is too late in order to get moderate opinion on your side. The Irish are a race of horse coupers, and the Sinn Fein extremist is not necessarily now bidding the lowest price that Ireland will take. Remember, too, that, though the most generous offer might be received with derision at first, moderate men want peace, and it is quite possible that, if they were given the chance, they might be able to secure it. For two months the House will not be sitting. After those two months events may happen which may make the offer too late. An assurance of full self-government now might bring to your side, not only reasonable Sinn Feiners, but the Roman Catholic hierarchy, which is more important than anything. The Prime Minister has had very little time lately to attend to Ireland, and I do think it is necessary for him to break this vicious circle and to allay the bitterness of coercion by offering something at the same time. After all, time is everything. Further delay in settlement is playing the game of Sinn Fein extremists, and is the way to make disaster inevitable.

It is very remarkable that the Prime Minister's speech contained very little to show how this so-called Restoration of Order in Ireland Bill is going to live up to its title. It may do something to re-establish the common law in Ireland, but to do that it is quite unnecessary to have the wide and unparalleled Defence of the Realm Provisions which are indicated in the first lines of this Bill. I fail to see how you are going to get out of the difficulty that people will not come forward and give evidence. The Chief Secretary's argument was, if you try people in secret witnesses will come forward. Sinn Fein will watch the Courts, and they will know which of the hostile witnesses have been in the Court, and, after all, unless the accused are always going to be shot immediately, without even being allowed to see their friends, is it not quite certain that even the secret Court is not going to prevent retaliation on witnesses? I do not see how the House can support this measure now that the Government has shown that it is their main policy, and that they are not going to do anything to get settlement by consent.

Those who think repression can solve the Irish question under present conditions are living in the last century. They are living in a period when the powers of Sinn Fein had not been developed, and when they had not mobilised Irish public opinion. Does the House realise how far the blunders of the Irish Government have gone to destroy the Royal Irish Constabulary, which is, after all, their only instrument of coercion in the old sense? The release of convicted hunger-strikers, and other blunders of the same kind, have made the position of the Royal Irish Constabulary almost impossible, and have swept away the last vestiges of confidence in the British Executive. I do not believe the trouble of the Government is due to lack of power under the existing law, half so much as to lack of judgment in using the powers which they already have. The House does not realise, possibly, what it means to the Royal Irish Constabulary to have lost confidence in the British Government. These men are working under nerve-racking conditions, living in isolated barracks, not only they but their womenfolk, in an atmosphere of poisonous hate, and yet their discipline under these most trying circumstances has given an example of which any guards' battalion in the world might be proud. For Heaven's sake, while this country keeps nominal control of Ireland, do not break down the force which you can neither replace nor do without! Soldiers cannot do police work. Apart from their organisation and training they are English, and they cannot mix with the people, and are absolutely helpless for the detection of crime. The country is now in such a state that the time for effective police measures is really past, and the re-imposition of British rule can only be achieved by a process of reconquest. Do people really realise what military repression means? I take it that it is military repression that the Government are contemplating by this violent measure.

You are now at war in Ireland. You have practically the whole population against you, and it is true that if you are geing to reconquer Ireland that, in the absence of a regular army of Irish to- fight against, your only possible means will be frightfulness. There are women in Sinn Fein as numerous, perhaps, and quite as determined, as the men. Is this country prepared to shoot them down, and, if it is, and even if this House sanctions such a thing, how long is public opinion going to stand it? Repression, however, does not only mean punishing the guilty. People talk glibly about holding up the railways and blockading the ports of Ireland, but that sort of policy is going to hit law-abiding men more than it is going to hurt the murderer. Surely it is disastrous to rely on such measures unless you are sure that they can succeed, and unless you have deserved the support of all reasonable men by having left no other and more moderate expedient untried.

The speech to which we have just listened shows us at once the different points of view from' which an Irishman and an Englishman approach the problem of Ireland. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is an Irishman. He has taken pains to familiarise himself with the latest phase of the Irish problem. He has taken pains to try and understand the inner meaning of Sinn Fein. He held no such opinions within the memory of a great many men in this House, and although he was one of the most ardent opponents of the Home Rule Act when it was still the Home Rule Bill we find now that his opinion has turned, that he has come to recognise the inevitable, and that he has made a plea to the Government which comes from one who has firsthand knowledge of the country, has first-hand information regarding developments in the country, and who is actuated by a desire for the best interests of the country. It is his country and mine that is being destroyed and ruined by absentees, men who have never set foot in it, men who take no pains to ascertain for themselves the real state of things and the real tendencies in that country. The idea of the Prime Minister standing up at that table and saying, not once but repeatedly, that there is no one in Ireland in favour of Dominion Home Rule, and that no one in Ireland knows what the Dominion Home Rule means! That statement was false, to the knowledge of many Members of this House, and it was false, I believe, to the knowledge of the right hon. Gentleman who uttered it. I say this in reply to him, that outside of the ranks of Sinn Fein there is not any body of opinion in the three provinces of Ireland that is not in favour of Dominion Home Rule. And the right hon. Gentleman had the audacity to stand up at that box and tell us that there was no body of opinion in favour of Dominion Home Rule when he had just left a deputation of influential Unionists from the City of Cork who came over to inform him of the opinion in favour of Dominion Home Rule throughout the length and breadth of Ireland. Another commercial body, the Dublin Chamber of Commerce, a thoroughly Unionist body, has proclaimed itself in favour of Dominion Home Rule within the last week or two. The whole tendency of events is in favour of it. The hope and future of the country lie in the speedy enactment of a measure along those lines, and any Members who are in touch with Ireland know that that is so.

We come here at the end of a Session, hoping that even now the Prime Minister or the Chief Secretary would hold out to us some hope of better times for Ireland, some hope of a firm offer from the Government, which might be considered and accepted by the majority of the people of Ireland. What do we get? A Coercion Bill. Some of us remember the Prime Minister in this House for the last ten years or so. The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken remembers him. He remembers the time when the Prime Minister was out against the dukes and when he was a Home Ruler. Was the Home Rule policy for Ireland right or wrong then? If it was right then, what has occurred since to make it wrong? Are we to accept the theory that Irishmen have a double dose of original sin, and that the present is one of the occasions when this double dose of original sin is manifesting itself? I put it to the House that a state of things such as exists in Ireland to-day does not exist without a cause. It is for the Government, instead of concocting Coercion Bills, to seek out the cause and try to remove it, and then the necessity for any Coercion Bill will disappear speedily. If I were an English Member, I might, perhaps, be in favour of a Bill which is entitled "A Bill for the Restoration of Order in Ireland." I would be in favour of this Bill if there were any chance that it was going to achieve the result aimed at. There is not the slightest chance of the Bill securing either of the objects for which it was drafted. We are told that one of the objects is to improve the administration of justice in Ireland. The trouble that the Government are experiencing with regard to the administration of justice in Ireland is that the people have left the courts, voluntarily, that it is impossible to get evidence or to arrest criminals.

The right hon. Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) told us in a recent Debate that British law and order had ceased to exist over three-quarters of Ireland. We all' agree with that statement. The statement was not controverted then, nor has it been controverted since. In other words, the police are prisoners in their own barracks. Many of their barracks have already been burned, and others, here and there, are being burned every day, so that, bit by bit, the police are being driven back more and more into their barracks, which are becoming fortresses from which they cannot emerge. Under these circumstances, they cannot get the information which would lead to the arrest of criminals, they cannot go out to perform their ordinary police duties, and certainly they cannot patrol the country. They are just like armed military garrisons in block-houses. Will this Bill remedy that state of affairs? Will this Bill put it into the power of the police to get the information they require? Not a bit of it. This Bill is regarded in Ireland as useless, and as malignant as well as useless. The only effect of it will be to drive thousands of Irishmen into the ranks of Sinn Fein. The position that many of us held in Ireland was that we have been looking daily to the Government for a remedial measure. We have been hoping against hope that there would be some announcement from the Government that would give us cause to anticipate better things and a settlement. No such hope has been held out to us to-day. Man must have some Government. In three-quarters of Ireland we must have some government. Government has ceased to exist, and what alternative is there to us except to become Sinn Feiners? Sinn Fein to-day, in three-quarters of the country, delivers the goods and is carrying on the normal functions of government well, and admittedly in a just and wise manner. It is only a step from that position to this position: Will Sinn Fein not function better and more perfectly when it gets more adherents, and when the people who are to-day offering active or passive resistance join with Sinn Fein? Of course, the result will be that the functioning of Sinn Fein as a National Government will be improved. That is what is going to happen to-morrow in Ireland.

We cannot be for ever coming here asking for mercy. To-day we are a nation, and we demand our rights. Our country has been ruined and destroyed by absentees and by men who were ignorant of the conditions in Ireland. Irishmen are not going to stand that any longer. We have taken the remedy into our own hands. It is for the Government and for Members of this House to say now how far Irishmen are to progress along that path. If you let us tread that path long enough and far enough, the result will be that you will lose strategic control of the whole country. Is that worth preserving for this Government and this country? If it is worth preserving, there is only one way: you must make peace with the Irish and give us a Government which we can support, a Government based on the consent of the whole of the Irish people. We all admit that the situation in Ireland is very serious. This Bill, as a remedy for that situation, is Mrs. Partington trying to stop the tide with a mop once more. Here is an instance of the kind of thing that aggravates Irish opinion. The Chief Secretary told us that there are 76 prisoners awaiting trial in Ireland for having arms in their possession. Every day one opens the Irish papers, and what does one find? That young Irishmen have been tried by court-martial for having arms, and the standard sentence for being in possession of arms, without trying to use them, without assaulting anyone, or even levelling a pistol at anyone, is two years' imprisonment with hard labour. These 76 prisoners are triable by court-martial. A Tipperary man and a Cork man get two years' imprisonment with hard labour, but what happens to the Northern Orangeman for a similar offence in Derry during the Derry riots? A pecuniary fine and no imprisonment at all. The offence is the same, the danger of the Act of which the man is accused is the same, and the Orangeman is fined, and the Sinn Feiner, or Nationalist, or whatever you like to call him, is put by for two years with hard labour. It is things like that which rankle, and which are going on before our eyes every day, and which are making us more and more disgusted with the administration of justice such as we have hitherto experienced. The Chief Secretary was very proud of the Section which authorised the imprisonment of Irish prisoners in His Majesty's prisons in the United Kingdom. Did it need a Statute to authorise that? Hundreds have been brought over in the last two or three years, both to prisons and internment camps. If statutory authority was not needed then, why take it now? You cannot have it both ways. Either the former imprisonments of that kind were illegal and unauthorised, with the knowledge of the Government, or this proposal is superfluous. Perhaps the Attorney-General will enlighten us on the point.

We come to the supreme comedy in the provision regarding the payment of malicious injury claims. The Chief Secretary's new way is to collar the grants which have been made in aid of various Irish local services. The local authorities are entitled to these grants under previous Statutes, and the purposes include medical and educational expenditure, for the accommodation of the lunatic poor, sanitary purposes, and medical charities and other matters. All these sums form part of the local taxation account and we have not been told yet which of them is to be taken for the purpose of malicious injuries. Of the total revenue of the local authorities 20 per cent. comes from grants, but 15 per cent. of their income goes back to the Treasury in the form of the repayment of loans already obtained, so that if you cut off the grants the local authorities will rejoin and say, "Very well, we will not pay the interest on the loans. You take 20 per cent. from us and we will refuse to pay 15 per cent." That 15 per cent. is on loans exclusive of gas, water and electric light, and if you add these the instalments on loans will be more than 15 per cent. Therefore your whole local taxation account is wiped out and you are as far off as ever of having paid malicious injury claims. We were told this Bill solved that difficulty, but by the simple fact of refusing to pay interest on the loans the local authorities can render futile the attempt to force them to do something which they are not willing to do. It is difficult to say in which of these two points the failure of this Bill is greater and more complete. Apart from these considerations, and Coercion Bill such as this, which is unaccompanied by remedial legislation, must be a failure when it is opposed by the whole national spirit of a people. The Irish people to-day are in a very different position from the Irish people with whom the present Lord President of the Council (Mr. Balfour) had to deal when he was Chief Secretary in the 'eighties. They were a poor people then and we all know the change that has come over the face of the country. They were a poor, ignorant peasantry; they were demoralised and on the verge of starvation. They had no reserves of money to tide them over a difficult time; they were wanting in education; they were wanting in national spirit. All that has disappeared now, and you have a high-spirited people determined to have freedom, and the very last people in the world to whom an insult like this Bill ought to be offered. Of the fate of this Bill and the working of it there can be no doubt. It can only end in disaster and can only make the position of the British Government more ridiculous than it is. It can only hasten the disintegration of the Royal Irish Constabulary, which is taking place day after day. After all, that is the ultimate force upon which all government in Ireland rests. When the Royal Irish Constabulary disappears, government is at an end. We hear Minister after Minister braying forth the praises of that splendid force, but if they were a little surer of their ground with that splendid force perhaps they would not be so loud in their praises, and they would gain a little more respect from the Irish people if they were in a position to put an end to the mutinies in that force which have disgraced the name of government in Ireland. Those mutinies have occurred again and again, and the present position is that, if you are uncertain as to whether there will be a murder of a police officer or a public servant in some part or another of Ireland, you are becoming equally uncertain as to whether there will not be a mutiny in the Royal Irish Constabulary resulting in the raiding and in the wrecking of a town. That is a confession of failure, and it is a confession that the Government are unable to control this force. That is an indication that this force is going to pieces, and when that happens the Republic will not be a thing of speculation, it will be not only the de jure Government, but it will also be the de facto Government of three-quarters of the country at least.

The hon. Member who has just sat down will perhaps forgive me if I do not follow his speech, more especially as I am in a good deal of agreement with part of it. I should like to say how thoroughly I agree and how fully I sympathise with the very eloquent speech of my hon. and gallant Friend beside me (Lieut.-Colonel Guinness). In the opening of this Debate we heard two very characteristic speeches, one from the late Prime Minister and one from the present Prime Minister, and I am inclined to think that the one from the present Prime Minister was the most characteristic and typical of the two. I am always grateful to him for a lesson in debating. Whenever you are confronted with the results of your own past deeds, whenever your case is poor and you do not know quite what to say, the method of the Prime Minister is either to breathe upon the ashes of anger, or in some other way to evade the point. He did it to-night very successfully by attacking his opponents, and while he was speaking I wondered whether the Prime Minister, amongst his multitudinous duties, ever has time to read history, because if he has read modern history he must have been very much struck by the similarity of the circumstances in which we find ourselves to-day, and the circumstances in which we lost America. When we lost America we had just done the greatest feat of arms ever performed by this or any other country at that time. We had gained the great possession of India, and we had conquered Canada, and much that we had gained by arms we lost through politics. To-day I think we are in a very like position. Our arms have gone victoriously half over Africa, over Mesopotamia, and over Palestine, and yet what is it that we stand to lose in the ferment that we see around us? Anything, as far as I can see, except that invaluable possession, the Government which we have at the present moment. There is another point of likeness between the present time and the time to which I am referring. In those days the House of Commons was virtually appointed through the rotten boroughs by the monarch's party. It obeyed with a simple, faithful, and blind obedience the dictates of the Ministers of that monarch, with the result that we lost America. To-day the House of Commons has been appointed, not by the monarch, but accidentally by the Prime Minister. I do not mind what language I use about the Houses of Commons of the past, but I want to be respectful in what I say of this House of Commons. Shall I say that it is very amenable to all the wishes of the Prime Minister?

To-night we are dealing with this Coercion Bill, the intention of which is to prevent some of the foulest crimes of modern times, crimes that have not been justified, and that nothing could justify. Let me say at once that one cannot help taking the national point of view. I am an Englishman, and I want to see my own people looked after, and I am ready to support any measure that is going to save the lives of the agents of the Crown in the very difficult performance of their duty, but this Bill goes a great deal beyond that. This Bill, as I see it, is not an ad hoc measure, but is much more in the nature of an entirely out-of-date system. You turn the ordinary citizen into a rebel, you turn the moderate man into an extremist, and you turn the average man-in-the-street, who likes to have his own way, and is generally a neutral about things, into an enemy. What is the present situation? You have a very well organised reign of terror against the forces of the Crown, and it seems to me that there are two ways in which you can deal with that. If it is war, let it be war. War is war, and you should do what you can to equip our people and see their numbers are sufficient, but as both the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) and my hon. and gallant Friend here have said, that in itself is not sufficient. You must go deeper, and you must cut at the original root of the thing, and that root is political. If you want to get rid of this discontent, you must redeem your promise in giving self-government to Ireland.

At every point the Irish situation has been worsened and made more desperate. First of all, you had the old Irish Party of the Nationalists, made up of men like the late Mr. John Redmond, who were very good Irishmen, but who could also look beyond Ireland. Then, by your bringing in the Conscription Bill at the moment when it was brought in, that party was destroyed from top to bottom, and there followed in their place the Sinn Feiners, who were numerically very small. They were theoretical and rather philosophic people. The Government never troubled to see that arms did not go into Ireland, but they went and broke up tea parties where Irish was being taught. They did all the things that were utterly futile, but abandoned all precautions against the very venomous dangers with which Ireland was surrounded. The result was that Sinn Fein was displaced, and in the place of the Sinn Feiners you got the Irish Republican Brotherhood and half-a-dozen other secret societies whose delight is murder, and now, because you refuse to reconsider your own past attitude, you are going to put these filthy murderers into the position of being the defenders of the liberty of their country. Coercion is only a part of the remedy. In the state of war or of semi-war that exists at the present moment, you kill if you can, but that is no cure for the discontent of the country. For that cure you must have something in the nature of what has been suggested. In the first place, when you deal with coercion, the first question which one asks oneself, I think, is as to the wisdom or un wisdom of coercion. Coercion can only be wise if you can carry it out. If you cannot carry it out, if it is unsuccessful, then it is extremely unwise. I do not believe that coercion in Ireland can be a permanent instrument of government.

I cannot help feeling—and I suspect there are other Members who feel like me—that to some extent this is a retribution for our past policy. The Prime Minister, amongst other people during the War, preached the gospel of Sinn Fein for every country except his own. He preached Sinn Fein for Austria, and you had the various nations of Austria who rose against the Austrians. The Austrians tried coercion, and coercion failed, and to-day you can see the ruins of Austria. When the Prime Minister preached Sinn Fein for Austria he forgot that in our own Empire, we had the counterparts of Czecho-Slovakism and Jugo-Slavism, and to-day you are hearing of them. For coercion, as I think the Prime Minister said himself, you must have the moral sanction of the majority of the country, and that is what you have not got at the present moment in Ireland. They hate these murders, but they do not agree to be denied that which they have been promised. If we mean to carry this thing through in the military sense, no doubt we can do it, but the price we are going to pay will be a very big price. It is going to be a devastated Ireland. It is going to be burnt houses. It is going to be Ireland an irreconcilable enemy. What you are going to do there is to sow dragons' teeth of bitter memory, and there is nothing in this world which endures like bitter memory. If you go to the Highlands, they remember the Massacre of Glencoe like yesterday. When you go to Ireland they talk of Cromwell. Once you go upon that path you create a memory which only a very, very long time can erase. It semes to me we still have one chance, and one chance only, before it is too late. I remember a speech made by the Prime Minister during the War, in which he spoke of the fateful words that dogged the footsteps of the Allies. He said, "Too late in moving; too late in arriving; too late in coming to a decision," and he said:

Again, let me say, let me cast aside the futile pretence that coercion is the only thing required in Ireland. What we look for in the Government is no longer strategic inertia, is no longer tactical repression. England is great and big enough, to a large extent, to forgive and forget, and that, to my mind, is the only possible thing in the future. We do not want to beat Prussia only to have inherited the mantle of Prussianism. The plea I would put before this House is this: When you are discussing Ireland, do not only remember one side of the thing that has happened. Do not only remember Sinn Feiners. Think of the Irish Guards, too, and the Munsters, and the work they did. When you are discussing Ireland, do not only remember Mr. de Valera, but think also sometimes of Mr. William Redmond, who made as fine a sacrifice as any Member of this House.

I listened to the Prime Minister's speech this afternoon, and I could not help regretting that some of us who have a definite point of view regarding Ireland could not have shared that eloquence and vivid phraseology in which he made his statement to the House. We must, however, work with the instrument with which Providence has endowed us, and I still venture to say that I am personally a believer in Dominion Home Rule for Ireland. In the very few observations which I intend to offer, I want to make clear at once that we all desire to respond to the appeal made by the Chief Secretary for Ireland to help in every way to break the rule of the reign of terror and the assassin in Ireland. We may reach that result by divers methods, and some of us believe that the Bill before us is not the best means of achieving the result we have in view, which is to bring peace and good government to that distracted country. The Prime Minister this afternoon referred to the importance of having a great majority of Irish opinion properly represented, and I only wish we had had a somewhat fuller account from him of what took place yesterday when the deputation met him and put forward the demand for Dominion Home Rule along certain lines. But if you are to have the opinion of Ireland behind you in one regard, you must also have it in another, and I am not at all sure that there is adequate public sanction either in this country or Ireland for the Bill now before the House. I happened to take up a copy this afternoon of the "Irish Times" of Tuesday this week, and I was rather interested to find that the "Irish Times" expresses itself very strongly about the present coercive measure. The "Irish Times," I think, fairly represents Unionist opinion in Ireland. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] What do they say about it?

"The latest measure for restoring and maintaining order cannot achieve that end. We are most anxious that crime and outrage shall be suppressed, and we agree that success in suppressing them would justify measures of extreme severity. All such measures, however, must collapse without the sanctions of public opinion, and for lack of these sanctions the new courts will operate in vacuo. They will not be able to catch criminals or to secure evidence that would convict criminals"

My hon. and gallant Friend has surely sources of information which ought to enable him to answer his own question. I am quite aware that public opinion is extremely difficult to appraise in Ireland, and I have something to say later about the public opinion of that country. It may be right, it undoubtedly is right, in certain exceptional cases to suspend the operation of juries in Ireland. Ireland is not to-day suffering from lack of juries. It is suffering from lack of prisoners to try before the juries. You are not getting your prisoners to-day. The Chief Secretary today made a very important statement in this House. We propose, he said, to pass one of the most rigorous coercion Bills which this country has ever seen. Why? Because, according to him, 76 prisoners are awaiting trial, in Ireland. It requires much stronger justification than that to entitle this House to pass a measure of this nature. It is possible that the Government has some plan in view which they do not wish to disclose to the House. We, however, can only judge on the merits of this Bill, and of the number of persons awaiting trial; that number is 76.

I am not against coercive measures when they are necessary. The Prime Minister himself has told us that force is no remedy. This new Bill will not have any remedial effect in Ireland unless it is accompanied by an enlightened policy which will help, in the mind of the best Irish opinion, to settle this long and vexed question. I could give a good many quotations from public men and the Press regarding this Bill, but I do not wish to detain the House at any undue length. I would, however, just say one word or two on the question of Dominion Home Rule. I believe it has been stated to-day that there is a strong body of opinion in Ireland that would accept this solution. We have the demand put forward for an Irish Republic. Everyone of us would support the Prime Minister in his uncompromising opposition to any Irish Republic. That is quite impossible.

My hon. Friend says, "No." Of course I did not reckon with the representative of the Red Guards in this House when I made that particular statement. But I still adhere to my own opinion as to the feeling generally in this respect. We in this country could not see close to our shores an Irish Republic. One must also always bear in mind that an Irishman always asks for more than he expects to get. My right hon. and learned Friend, the Attorney-General (Mr. D. Henry) will support me in that statement. No one in this House knows better than he that point. I took it that it was common ground that we should decline to entertain for one moment the question of an Irish Republic. That, however, does not put out of sight the advisability of a totally different Measure. The present Home Rule Bill has already passed through various stages in this House. I wish to be perfectly frank about that Bill.

We were told by the Prime Minister this afternoon that the success of any Measure depends upon whether or not it will be received by the Irish people. Is there a single friend in this House of the present Irish Home Rule Bill—[An HON. MEMBER: "Yes!"]—I should prefer that that answer should came from an Irishman. The Ulster Members here treated that Bill with something like contempt. There was not a single enthusiastic speech in its favour. We know what the opinion is in the rest of Ireland. My point of view is that that Bill will never see the light so far as being placed on the Statute Book concerned. The Prime Minister this afternoon stated very cautiously his opinion about Dominion Home Rule. I think it only right to say that those of us in this House—and there is, I think, a considerable number— who stand for Dominion Home Rule believe that certain very necessary reservations must be made if Dominion Home Rule is to be granted. Among those reservations are the full control on the part of the Imperial Government of the Army, the Navy, and foreign relations. There were several passages in the speech of the Prime Minister that I welcomed, because I think there were several gleams of hope in it, and especially in his closing sentences. I took a note of one of them, "The Government are prepared to grant great concessions for the sake of peace in Ireland." I believe the right hon. Gentleman was absolutely sincere and earnest in making that declaration. In my view, he there left the door ajar for Dominion Home Rule.

It is extremely difficult for anyone in this House to say that he speaks for any considerable body of opinion in Ireland. In all modesty I can claim a long-standing connection with Ireland. I have many friends there with whom I am continually in touch. Some of them are men in responsible positions. One can only speak to the extent of one's knowledge, but I am told by these men that if Dominion Home Rule were offered it would have a tremendous effect upon the moderate opinion in Ireland which is tired and weary of the present crime and disorder. I cannot tell how far such an offer would be effective. Neither can I believe that the last word upon the subject by the Prime Minister was said to-day. I feel quite certain that the best opinion in Ireland is really antagonistic to the crime that is going on at the present time. There is surely one elementary consideration which we should follow in this matter, and it is this: that every possible avenue of settlement should be explored before we decide upon this policy of rigorous coercion and repression. I do hope that the Prime Minister will not regard as his last words on the subject the speech he made to-day. Perhaps I may be allowed to say this: if there is one subject upon which I am passionately in earnest it is the settlement of this long-standing Irish question. There is no Debate on the Irish question which has taken place since April, 1886, that I have not read. There has not been a Debate on this subject since I became a Member to which I have not listened, and surely it is a pitiful comment upon our statesmanship that 34 years after Mr. Gladstone introduced his Home Rule Bill in April, 1886, our remedy for the Irish grievance to-day is a Coercion Bill worse than anything we have ever had before. What is the cause of it 1 Direct action is in full swing in Ireland. When direct action is threatened here what is the Government attitude? Not long ago a Labour deputation appeared before the Prime Minister and direct action was hinted at. The Prime Minister said, and said rightly, that any attempt at direct action would be resisted with all the forces at the disposal of the Government, and with that view I agree. He also said that the remedy for Labour was at the ballot box. That is what we say in this country, but in Ireland we have ignored constitutional representation, and that is the crux of the whole question.

You entrusted Ireland with the franchise, and for years you had an overwhelming majority demanding a constitutional remedy. You promised time and again to grant it, but the cup has always been dashed from the lips of Ireland. With regard to coercing Ulster I have never made any such suggestion, and I have always been prepared to leave Ulster out as far as coercion is concerned. Nevertheless, I am prepared to coerce any part of the country which does not obey the laws of Parliament, and I will leave the subject there. I trust that the Prime Minister, who has borne the weight of State responsibility so able for many years, will still have the good fortune, with his matchless power for negotiating, to settle the Irish question, and to bring to an end that long and sombre chapter in the history of our relations with that country.

I beg to move, to leave out the word "now," and, at the end of the Question, to add the words "upon this day three months."

The Chief Secretary this afternoon discharged his melancholy duty in the usual manner of Chief Secretaries when they have had to call upon this House to pass Coercion Acts. He set aside completely the great underlying cause which has given rise to breaches of the law and crime in Ireland. It seemed to me that even the Chief Secretary himself scarcely believed in the efficacy of the remedy he was submitting, and I doubt whether there are very many hon. Members behind him who have any real faith in the proposals now before us accomplishing the object which everyone desires, namely, putting an end to crime in Ireland. The feature of this Debate has been the speech of the Prime Minister. I do not think that such a speech will tend to the cultivation of the spirit which the Prime Minister said manifested itself now on a broad scale in Ireland, that is, the spirit of looking to moderate forces for the settlement of this unhappy question.

We are entitled to press upon the Government the formulation of their Irish policy, whatever it be. The country is in doubt as to what is that policy. The Prime Minister's debating attitude is that a responsible body of opinion must come forward and say what it wants before the Government can do anything. I do not think that is an unfair representation of the repeated statements of the Prime Minister. What is the right hon. Gentleman's action? Simply to bring forward a Bill, press it through the House, and tell us that he intends to put it upon the Statute Book, although it is not supported by a single Irish Member in this House, or a single fraction of Irish opinion in Ireland, or by any association, society, organisation, or public body of any kind. Surely that is not a proper attitude for the Prime Minister to take up. He demands that before anything can be done there must be an authoritative demand, and at the same time he presses forward with all the force of Parliamentary authority a measure which clearly will not work, and which has not been demanded by anybody in Ireland. In fact, it has been mocked and derided by every party in that country. If that is the Irish policy of the Government, it is time they concluded that they cannot face this issue, and faced the responsibility of handing over the issue to someone else.

The Prime Minister spoke about Dominion Home Rule and what it means, but what has he himself indicated? He has declared that he is prepared to deal with the Irish question and settle it within two limitations. One of them is no Republic, and the other limitation is no coercion of Ulster, and that means, after all, only a part of the whole of that great province. Within these two limitations is it not possible to have Dominion Home Rule? I say that an overwhelming body of Irish opinion can be stimulated and built up that would find full satisfaction in a form of Dominion Home Rule even within those limitations. The Prime Minister argues in this manner. He says Dominion Home Rule means self determination, and that means a Republic; therefore you cannot have Dominion Home Rule. Does Home Rule in any of our Dominions mean a Republic? Is it not because the Dominions have their fullest measure of self-government that they are loyal to the Empire, and make no attempt to place themselve outside the Empire? I leave that side of the question with the demand that we on this side of the House are entitled to make, that the Irish policy of the Government shall be definitely formulated in a manner which will make it intelligible to the Irish people and induce them to begin to trust the word of a British Prime Minister. The Bill before the House is declared to be one for restoring law and order in Ireland, and we had the spectacle at the commencement of the discussion of the Leader of the House reading to us a statement by Lord Macaulay of his determination in 1832 to force through Parliament a measure that would restore law and order in Ireland. How often have we had exhibitions of this simulated determination on the part of British Prime Ministers to do this since the days of Lord Macaulay? I leave hon. Members to answer that question for themselves. The tragedy of these times is that that is the only method which a Ministry of to-day can find, with all its wits, to submit to this House.

We who oppose this measure are charged with having some sympathy with murder. Those who say that lie. We not only have no sympathy, but we declare that those who are committing these murders are, in our judgment, Ireland's worst enemies. These crimes are the inevitable result of a system of coercion and repression which interferes with the right of political agitation and of individual liberty as we know it in this country. We have no sympathy with murder, but we can properly have sympathy with the victims of British rule in Ireland, while feeling the deepest detestation for the criminals and crimes which have been the subject of our discussion. The Prime Minister has said more than once this week, that these crimes are committed, after all, by an insignificant minority of the people of Ireland, and that the vast majority of the people hold these criminals to be the enemies of their country, and would approve any penalty which the law inflicted upon them. Why should there not be a genuine attempt to deal with that overwhelming body of Irish opinion in order to enlist its respect for British intentions in regard to the government of Ireland. It is only by that means you can deter the criminals, that you can arrest those who are committing the crimes and can put into execution the machinery of the law to punish those who so far have escaped.

The law in Ireland has never failed, and is not failing now, because it is weak. This Bill, it is said, will strengthen the law, but the stronger your law it being made by militarism and by the suppression of liberty, the more extensive crime will become, and the more easy will it be for criminals to escape. Law fails in Ireland not because it is weak, but because it is regarded as an alien law. A law passed from outside commands no respect whatever from the vast masses of the Irish people. The history of all these Coercion Acts is the history of the failure of drastic measures, as they are termed, to deal with the life and demands of the Irish people. Hon. Members can go further and fare worse. They can increase tenfold the military forces in Ireland. They can multiply the police; they can dip deeper into the pockets of this country, to pay the bill, but even then the British law in Ireland will fail. Until you have enabled the Irish people to make their own laws, however badly they may do it, you will get no settlement of this unhappy and lasting trouble. One phrase used by the Chief Secretary in his speech this afternoon was an old phrase; it was as to his duty as representing the Executive, of protecting life and property in Ireland. Let us see how far that duty is carried out, not in the South and West of Ireland, but in the North; what really are the functions and what in practice are the powers of the Executive by way of protecting life and property in Ireland. We have had here in this building during this week a deputation of workmen from Belfast who have met the Chief Secretary and have presented their story to him, a story not unlike the one I will venture to read to the House from two letters which have reached me from workmen in Belfast. This is the substance of the first: How does the machinery of the law apply there? What attempt has been made to work it in the case of Belfast, where even now thousands of workmen there dare not go to work because of their political beliefs, and because they are Catholics, labour men or Socialists, or because in some way they have incurred the displeasure of the so-called loyalists and law-abiding people?

Does the right hon. Gentleman not know that the Protestant workmen have given these men a card to say that no matter what their religion or politics may be, if they are opposed to Sinn Fein they can go back to work?

I am not aware of that, but let me, if I may, just pursue my argument in the light of the significance of that statement.

The Chief Secretary this afternoon, in pointing out that the law had broken down in the disloyal parts of Ireland, said that the people had constituted themselves representatives of the law, and had issued permits to people to do this, that, or the other. That was his condemnation. Yet he seems to have ignored what has been happening in Belfast. It appears to be right and lawful in the North for law-abiding people to step outside the law, and to issue cards to persons telling them that if they are not of certain political opinions, they will have the right to pursue their avocations, but in the South and West of Ireland we are told that the law has been reduced to a nullity. How does the Bill propose to deal with the rights of Catholic workmen in Belfast? There is no attempt whatever to use the machinery of the law to preserve the rights of property or of the individual among The Catholic minority in that part of the country. Let me read a statement from the second letter. I will read it exactly as it was written, without wishing to give any offence to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Duncairn Division (Sir E. Carson):

The Chief Secretary explained to us the provisions of this Bill, showing how it would enable military courts to be set up, the personnel changed, and how witnesses could be called. You may call spirits from the deep, but will they come when you call them? If you put your witness in the box, what is there to compel him to give evidence? Will he not live in just as great a degree of terror in a court which is a court-martial as in an ordinary open court? It was said, "We can make these courts secret." By such methods is it thought to establish the dignity of the law in Ireland—to have your trials in secret and reveal no evidence, with the childish belief that the name of a witness will not filter through and that the fact that he is not named or identified will protect him against danger? There is nothing in this Bill which will enable the Executive to make use of all this elaborate court-martial machinery which is to be established. The first thing is to catch the wrong-doer. What conditions will be changed in Ireland by this Bill to make it more certain that criminals and murderers and wrong-doers of any kind or degree, can be got into the clutches of the law? I put a question earlier in the day to the Leader of the House when he was giving figures showing how many crimes had been committed in a month. I need not repeat how we deplore these crimes. I asked him how many arrests had been made. He did not know, but it was evident that few arrests had been made.

I repeat; What provision is there in this Bill, what machinery can be placed behind it, to make arrests certain and to get wrong-doers into the clutches of the law? I am certain that there is not any. You cannot, by issuing warrants, make witnesses. You cannot, by compelling people to speak, make evidence Make them speak under compulsion and you will not get the truth. You will not get the evidence upon which alone any system of courts in this or any other country can permanently rest. I thought that quite recently the Irish Executive had had its lessons in the follies of these methods, and that Members of this House, too, had had their lessons. Can we have so soon forgotten the hunger strikes and all the effects that were produced upon public opinion by the conditions which then existed? Does it mean that you can destroy the methods—the mad and ruinous methods—of this fringe of evil Irish society? Does it mean that you can put an end to them by hanging them or shooting them? A large number of men who were deported from Ireland some time ago—deported, many of them, without trial and with nothing proved against them—were put in English gaols, and they refused to take food. They decided to face death rather than remain in an English gaol. It was not they who were afraid of dying. My hon. and gallant Friend opposite (Commander Bellairs) knows that some of them came very, near it. One of them actually is a dead man.

That is exactly my point. They knew that they would be released. They knew, as the Irish Executive does not, that there are limits to what is called the drastic nature of the law, and that you cannot go beyond those limits. Public opinion, which in Ireland as well as in this country would not tolerate the punishment of hunger strikers or the leading to death of people, will not, for long, stand this exhibition of drastic legal proceedings conducted in secret under the general conditions of military law. Lastly, I want to suggest to the House that these few arrests denote the universal reprobation of the British way of governing Ireland, and that we are ignoring the underlying cause and dealing only with the surface effects in passing through a measure of this kind. Ireland has been asking, for generations, by enormous majorities, for certain things from this Parliament. Those things are still withheld. We have not had time to deal with them. What Ireland does not want she can get in a few hours. This Bill is to go through in the course of two short Sittings, but the Bill will not alter the fact that there are men in Ireland who, after they were shot by the agents of the law, were stronger men dead for the purposes of Irish agitation than they are alive. The name of Jim Connolly is now an influence with hundreds of thousands of men in Ireland who were quite unmoved by his agitation and his appeals while he was alive. He was shot for doing that which the present Lord Chancellor of England and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Duncairn declared in certain circumstances they would do. They carried rifles and arranged their drillings and preferred their hostility to the law until they had their way. I say that this method will fail because all similar plans have failed, and that, therefore, we are entitled to call upon the Government to lay down clearly its Irish policy with respect to the legitimate demands of the Irish people and to make that policy so clear as to have even the words of British Ministers trusted by the Irish people.

This discussion falls naturally into two parts. There is the criticism of the Bill itself, which is the narrower question, and there is the wider question whether there is any alternative policy to the policy embodied in this Bill and in the other Government Bill, the further consideration of which is postponed until the autumn. On the narrower question I should like to say one word, and I will be as brief as I can. I confess that, while I earnestly desire to assist the Government to suppress crime, and epecially the crime of murder, I have some misgivings about the machinery which they have chosen. A court-martial, as the Prime Minister very truly said, is not a body of officers who act rapidly and recklessly in enforcing whatever is their will. It is, in fact, the very contrary of such a tribunal as that. It is a singularly cumbersome and inconvenient form of legal procedure. I have sat on a great many courts-martial, and nothing can be more unwise or mistaken than to suppose that it is an easy and efficient form of legal procedure. It is nothing of the kind. It is unavoidable procedure when you are dealing with questions of military discipline, because, naturally, officers are the only persons who are competent to deal with that subject matter. But it is not in itself a convenient procedure, because those who framed the law under which courts-martial work proceeded on the theory, I should imagine, that officers, although very just and kind, were not judicial, that is to say, they had not the gifts of a judicial person. Accordingly, the procedure of courts-martial is hedged round with all sorts of safeguards and limitations from which an ordinary Court of Assize is quite free, and which make the business of the court very much more cumbersome than that of the Court of Assize. I cannot understand why the Government should not have taken the much simpler course of accepting the withdrawal of juries from Assize Courts, and, perhaps, strengthening the judge with other commissioners who would sit with him if it is thought to be too great a burden for a single individual—sitting under the Commission under which a judge acts, to act with him—and letting the Courts go on precisely as they are now, but without a jury, the judicial commissioners doing the work of the jury as well as of the judge. That seems to be a far simpler plan, and the legal procedure would be immensely more efficient. You would not have the process of taking down every word in writing and reading it to the witness, and hindering the cross-examination by every possible safeguard in order that the prisoner may be done no wrong. You would have the straight forward procedure of an ordinary civil Court, and I believe you would have justice done more effectively and with a greater measure of public support than in a court-martial. As I am sure the Government themselves fully recognise, the great objection to setting up courts-martial is that they play, to that extent, into the hands of Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein is most anxious to represent that this is a sort of war between the dictatorial English race and the subject, but infinitely virtuous, Irish race. We heard the Chief Secretary read out the very absurd notice signed by a "competent military authority." All that belongs to the curious love of play-acting which is so commonly found in Irish agitation. They love to pose, as it were, in a particular attitude and in a particular character, so that, if they were not so dreadfully serious, we should really feel that they were children, and not grown up men at all. You fall in with that way of thinking if you set up courts-martial. That is just the thing they like you to do. Then they can pose as being oppressed under a military tyranny Therefore, I should have avoided courts-martial, because they are one of the least efficient forms of procedure, and because they give this colour to the idea of military tyranny in Ireland. There is another thing of which a complaint has been made by the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, although I am afraid my reference to it will be in a different sense, and that is hunger-striking. I confess that I am sorry the Government have made no provision for dealing with hunger-striking, even in the case of convicted criminals. I can appreciate the difficulty of dealing with them when they are not convicted, but merely detained under some Order, but, in dealing with a convicted criminal, I very strongly feel that he ought never to be released by reason of his own act in endangering his own health as a hunger-striker. If I were responsible for the Government of Ireland, I should not shrink at the death of any number of criminals if it were self-inflicted against a lawful sentence imposed by a lawful Court. I am surprised that the Government have not taken the opportunity of this Bill to put in a Clause making it clear that that is the legal and proper course. These are criticisms of the machinery of the Bill. In listening to the views which have been expressed by other speakers, as to whether this Bill really touches the weak spot in the administration of Irish justice, whether the substitution of a military or any other tribunal for a jury is really filling the defect of which the Chief Secretary naturally complains, I remember that it is in his power now to send every criminal against whom he has evidence to be tried by a special jury in any part of Ireland, including even the North-East, where all the special jurymen would be people thoroughly devoted to the enforcement of the law. I cannot believe, therefore, that the difficulty of the tribunal is a fundamental one. Under the Crimes Act there is already that power of changing the venue. You can send a criminal to be tried in any part of Ireland. I would rather that they brought these criminals to England, at any rate for very grave crimes, like murder or high treason, and tried them at the Old Bailey, where they would have received justice in the ordinary way.

Quite so, the accused. I pass to the wider question that has occupied so much of the attention of the House. The late Prime Minister and the present Prime Minister occupied quite an appreciable part of the time of the House in explaining each that the other was not at all of the character of Cromwell. That is a proposition in which we should all agree with them, but I am not sure that it casts any very illuminating light on the Irish question. They also were very anxious to prove that it was the other who was to blame for the particular difficulties which we are now encountering. I think I could make out a very good case against both right hon. Gentlemen. But, after all, the people who are really to blame for the present calamitous crime and wickedness in Ireland are the Irish themselves. If a man commits a murder, it is no justification, no excuse, no mitigation, to say that the Home Rule Bill was not introduced when he expected it. Let us clear our minds of the ridiculous cant that the slightest political grievance justifies the most abominable crimes, or even extenuates them. Nothing can be more absurd than to say that it can in the least diminish the wrong of these atrocious assassinations that someone did not introduce a Bill in one Session or did introduce it in another, that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Duncairn was admitted into a particular Government, and was not prosecuted for treason and the like. All these things of trivial compared with the- enormous guilt of treacherous assassination.

Has not the Noble Lord himself, in a book he has written on Conservatism, advocated the same thing?

I cannot give way, as there are many other hon. Members who wish to speak. I cannot pursue that topic. The fault lies with the people who commit the crime. Do not let us debauch our own moral sense by throwing the guilt for murder on anyone except the murderers. I do not any what everyone has said, that, whilst suppressing murder, you must have some policy to deal with the political grievances of Ireland, but let us not forget how this particular political grievance has come into being. This is the first time in history that the majority of the Irish people have ever demanded independence. I am speaking of modern Irish history, since the reign of Henry VIII. certainly. The majority of the Irish people have never demanded national independence until now. There has always been a section in favour of it, but the majority have always demanded something else—Home Rule, repeal of the Union or whatever it was. That demand came out of the Easter-week rebellion. What the Easter-week rebellion came out of has always been to me rather a mystery, because the explanations of it have always seemed grossly inadequate, for so tremendous an event.

Was it not because there was a difference made between the Ulster Volunteers and the Nationalist Volunteers?

If so, it was a singularly inadequate ground of rebellion. It must be remembered that when that rebellion took place Mr. Birrell was governing Ireland in a most conciliatory spirit-he was blamed for being a great deal too conciliatory—and he was in the closest touch with the Irish representatives, who-had a right to sit there, and in the fullest sense he was responsible to Parliament for Irish affairs. Therefore, I speak of this as having arisen out of a sort of Prussianism is grossly to misstate the history of the subject. Whatever may be the cause of it, it is ridiculous to say that the real fundamental blame lies with any British subject. It lies with sections of Irish opinion which are utterly unreasonable, which have an ascendency no doubt, through the blunders of the British Government, over their more moderate fellow citizens, and finally have adopted a system of terrorism which drags those who are partly converted by argument all the way by fear of the revolver into co-operation with the present widespread conspiracy against the law. That being the situation, and that being the history of it, what political remedy are we to apply? The Prime Minister says, and so far I agree with him, that it is no use applying a remedy unless the Irish consent to it themselves—it is no use making any change in his policy unless the Irish consent to it. But it must have been obvious to everyone who listened to him that he brought us to a deadlock. He said, I thought with truth, that he wanted someone to make a demand on behalf of Ireland which afterwards perhaps he would be able to concede, not because he thought it in itself reasonable, but because it appealed apparently to the approbation of the majority of the Irish people. But he did not say how the Irish people were ever to be put into a position to make the demand, so that we are evidently in a deadlock. He would not give, rightly as I think, any fresh concession except in response to a demand. But it did not appear who was in a position to make such a demand to which he would be able to respond.

10.0 P.M.

That has always seemed to me to be the fundamental difficulty of the situation, and I should seek to meet it by erecting a constituent assembly, whose business it would be not merely to make a demand, because I dislike regarding this matter as a treaty to be negotiated between two parties who have to be satisfied. On the contrary, it is a constructive work which has to be made to succeed. It is a machine which has got to be made to work, and it is most Important for the working of the machine that the Irish should feel that it is their machine, that they have made it them-selves and are therefore responsible for the working of it. But they must make it in every detail. It is not enough to lay down certain generalities of this, that and the other, and then leave it to the British Parliament to work it out into an Act of Parliament. It should be done Clause by Clause and Subsection by Sub-section in the form of a Bill. Therefore, I want to have a constituent Assembly to draw up a Bill, and when that Bill is drawn up it would be seen whether or not it was consistent with the fundamental ideas of this country and we should have a right to accept, reject or amend it, a right which no one can reasonably deprive us of. I do not conceal from the House that in my view a full and frank discussion under peaceful conditions would bring home to the Irish the enormous difficulties of any solution of the Irish question except the Union. People have got into the habit of thinking that there is nothing to be said on behalf of the Union at present, even from the point of view of administrative efficiency, even from the point of view of political efficiency. I am sure that is quite untrue. It only came into being because statesmen were driven to it. Pitt did not adopt the Union because he had any particular Imperialistic fancy of uniting Ireland to Great Britain. He adopted the Union because he really did not know what else to do. He saw no other solution of the immense difficulty of Irish Government. He was in precisely the same sort of position that the Government is in to-day. He was looking round for a solution, and the Union seemed to him the solution that promised best, and I believe the case since then has grown immensely stronger and not weaker. The difficulties of working an independent Parliament are not less than they were before 1800, but I believe a great deal greater. Therefore, in the end the ease for the Union on the ground of political and administrative efficiency is far stronger than the case for any other form of Government for Ireland.

But, of course, it is true that if you have neither in Ireland nor in Great Britain a strong conviction in favour of the Union, you cannot carry through that policy; you must fall back on something else. What I would fall back upon is first of all a free discussion in a constituent Assembly, in the hope that some dawn of reason might rise and the Irish people might see the immense difficulties that stand in the way of the federal solution, the Dominion Home Rule solution, or the Irish Republican solution, and I think the Constituent Assembly would afford a certain test. If they had shown that they were willing to get over the various difficulties that stand in the path of any solution, if they were willing to consider British opinion, if they were willing to meet the difficulty of Ulster, if they showed real statesmanship, and the give-and-take that goes with statesmanship, whatever form of Government you set up in Ireland there would be a very good prospect of its working. If, on the other hand, they proved themselves completely unreasonable, unpractical, clever at wrecking and not clever at construction, the Constituent Assembly would come to nothing, but it would have taught us that there was no prospect of the success of any form of Irish autonomy. If the Constituent Assembly cannot draw up an efficient scheme of Irish Government, no Irish Parliament will ever be able to work under any scheme that could be set up. The same capacities that are necessary for making an Irish Government are also necessary for working an Irish Government. If they cannot make their own Government, they will not be able to work it. I do not pretend to be sanguine about the Irish Constituent Assembly. It is possible that the true difficulty lies in the inherent indisposition on the part of the Irish people to work a democratic system at all. I have observed, for example, that the Irish always fall back upon an oligarchic directorate, who are allowed to work the thing in their own way. They never work the system of election to this House in a democratic fashion. The choice of the electors has always been conducted under authority and under the orders of somebody. In the early nineteenth century it was said that the Irish electors always voted as the Irish landlord told them or as the Irish priest told them, but never as they thought themselves. In our time it has always been some League or Association which has been the dictator. In reality it has always been an oligarchic system, and so it is with Sinn Fein now. Sinn Fein is really an oligarchy working with its armed guards of assassins, which enforce its decrees, and it holds its Courts not by any real democratic sanction, but because the Irish people readily submit to an oligarchy which has the power of self-assertion and domination.

I am sceptical whether we shall ever find a solution of the difficulty, but a constituent assembly is the best hope. Before that can come about you must get rid of murder. Let me say this, in no controversial spirit to my hon. Friends opposite and the hon. Members from Ireland, that we must realise that the suppression of murder belongs to quite a different category of political, social, and moral importance than any other question in Ireland. Hon. Members have spoken of murder as if it were just an element in the political situation. That might be said of rebellion or riot, but murder belongs to a different moral category altogether. The hon. Member for the Falls Division (Mr. Devlin), in one of his speeches, contrasted our toleration of the Ulster threat of rebellion with our indignation at murder. I am not going into the question of Ulster, but I say that you cannot possibly compare the two things. I say that, not because of any special consideration for the case of Ulster, but because rebellion is inherently different from murder, just as the act of knocking down a man is different from the act of ravishing a woman. Both are wrong, but one is the act of a miscreant and the other is the act of a person who may, after all, be an honest man. So it is with murder. Murder is a crime which puts man altogether out of the elements of civilised society. It is fundamental. It destroys the whole basis of society. Unless the Government are able to put down murder they cannot enforce the law in any other respect.

The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Clynes) complained of the intimidation which is practised against Sinn Feiners in the dockyards of Belfast. I hate lawless intimidation, wherever it is, but you cannot hope to begin to stop any form of lawlessness unless you first suppress murder. Unless you can show that the Government can do more to the criminals than the criminals can do to the agents of the Government; that the Government can put the criminals to death in the last resort and that the criminals cannot put the agents of the Government to death, the bottom drops out of your social system altogether. Before you can have any political reform, before you can establish an Irish Republic, if that is the object, you must suppress murder. That is the primary duty. Do let us clear our mind of that moral atheism which does not recognise that there is a fundamental moral law in force to which all systems of government and national aspiration must in the end conform, and that is the commandant, "Thou shalt do no murder." Therefore, we must establish that great rule of life in Ireland. The Government have put forward this Bill, and although I am not a great admirer of it I shall support the Bill. I will do anything and everything to enable the Executive to suppress this atrocious crime, because I am convinced that the suppression of crime is the starting point of any new work in Ireland, whether it be Dominion Home Rule, Federal Home Rule, or an Irish Republic itself. Whatever you are in favour of, the first thing is to recognise that great commandant, "Thou shalt do no murder."

I think it is characteristic of the temper which I have noticed this House always displays towards Ireland that when the second representative from that country rises to take part in the discussion of this new measure of repression, he should be received with cries of "Divide, divide." [HON. MEMBERS: "Who said it?" "Nobody said it."] I should have imagined that the Leader of the party who called "Divide" had taken sufficient recourse in the Closure Motion, which he carried to-day, to prevent anything like adequate discussion of this measure. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who said' Divide'?" "Withdraw."] The Noble Lord, who has just sat down, has delivered one of his usually brilliant dialectical contributions, in which he denounced the Irish people and their spokesmen as play-actors. I should imagine that playacting would appeal to the Noble Lord, because I think he is the most picturesque play-actor in this House. He gives us those pontifical declarations, but I always notice in regard to Irish questions that when he comes to balance the pros and cons he is always against the popular will of Ireland, and when there is anything to defend he always defends the forces of reaction. He was very powerful in his denunciation of murder. There is no one on these Benches who does not feel as intensely as he does on that subject, but the difference be- tween the Noble Lord and ourselves is that he has not always denounced murder. I have sat in this House and listened to murder being proclaimed as part of the political policy of a party, and I did not hear the Noble Lord raise a protest against it, and when I see English Members, and English Conservative Members, turn up their eyes in holy horror at what is occurring in Ireland, I remember that there was a time even in this House when murder was preached and proclaimed as part of a policy, and there was not a single word of indignant protest from the Noble Lord or any of his friends. Here is a speech delivered by the present Leader of the House on 78th June, 1912. He said: men of education, political power and intellectual prominence, leaders and guides of so-called aristocratic, wealthy and educated parties. They have preached these doctrines, and need not be astounded if these doctrines are carried into operation by men less educated. With regard to this new Bill that has been introduced here this evening, what is the next point that presents itself to Members of this House in regard to this matter? It is a Bill that proposes to maintain order and to establish law in Ireland. In order to get the House to pass it, the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary stood on that bench and recited a litany of crimes that had been committed in Ireland during the last two years. One of the things he told us was this, that precisely as you impose repressive measures upon Ireland, murders grew and increased Two and a half years ago there were practically no political murders in Ireland at all. You started searching people's houses and arresting men who had done no wrong, and deporting Irishmen and sending them into English prisons, refusing to bring them to trial. When they resented your treatment and were prepared to die for the liberties they held dear, you almost allowed them to die in your prisons. Little children were arrested for selling badges, meetings called for the purpose of supporting the Irish language were broken up by the armed forces of the Crown. Gatherings for the support of the music and the language of the nation were proclaimed. That went on for two years until it became absolutely intolerable with the country.

Then this outbreak took place. The people were maddened by what was taking place and because no remedy was to be found in Parliament I charge the Government with this: that if blood has been shed in Ireland, if passions have been let loose, if outrages have taken place, the responsibility rests upon the shoulders of the Government alone. I know that since the present Chief Secretary came to Ireland he has not carried out a campaign of that character. But why was that policy not adopted 2½ years ago? Why, when all the harm is done, do you always start a policy of conciliation? That is the one feature of British Government in Ireland that to me seems absolutely intolerable. When a demand is made, you do not listen to it. When a great concession is asked for, you refuse it. Popular opinion grows, national intensity and passion become more voluminous, and so it goes on and on and on, and you will not listen; and then when some cataclysm occurs you immediately say, "Something has happened" and a policy of conciliation is begun. That is not true of the present Government alone. It is true of every Government that ever existed in this country. Mr. Gladstone himself said that the Irish church was disestablished because of the Clerken-well explosion. A great many people believed that it was the outrages in connection with the land agitation which compelled the passage of the Land Acts. I remember that my entry into politics coincided with a demand made for land purchase in Ireland. That demand was subsequently incorporated in an Act of Parliament, and was carried through by Mr. George Wyndham. Yet members of the United Irish League were going to gaol day after day and week after week in assertion of their principles and in demanding a solution of the land question. After you had imprisoned the members, after you had aroused the passions of the people and fostered hatred, after all the mischief was done and the bad blood created, you passed the Land Act. Then we come to the home rule question. It was constitutionalism again. Someone has referred to the period during which Mr. Birrell was Chief Secretary. I have heard it said, and I do not think it can be contradicted, that during the whole period of that administration there was not a single political murder in Ireland. Why? Why were there no outrages in Ireland? Because in consequence of the constitutional demand of the representatives of Ireland in this House, Parliament had conceded the demand.

I cannot say that, but what I can say is that there were imprisonments, there were passions, there were bitter agitations, there was very bad blood between all sections of the people engaged in this land conflict, and dozens of the members of the party to which I belong were sent to prison. The Bill of 1914 was placed on the Statute Book, and there was no rebellion in Ireland. There would have been no rebellion and none of these calamitous and terrible incidents which we all deplore if the will of Parliament had been allowed to operate. But the will of Parliament was not allowed to operate. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) raised the banner of revolt against Constitutionalism. There is less blame to be attached to him than to the English politicians who took advantage of his powerful advocacy and support to raise their fallen fortunes at the time. The right hon. Gentleman declared, "I am the master of the will of England." Three times that Home Rule Bill was passed through this House. It went through the vicissitudes of the Parliament Act. We had to wait until the veto of the House of Lords was destroyed. It went to the House of Lords. The very constitution almost of the House of Lords was destroyed by the will of the Lords in order to allow the Home Rule Bill to pass through. When all that had been done, with Ireland fighting in the wilderness against untold odds and against wealth and aristocracy and power of England, and with no one in her favour but the people and the democratic forces of the country, and when the Bill had gone through all its stages, and when we won our battle before the tribunal of the moral conscience of the world, and when that triumph was sanctioned by every Parliamentary manifestation that could be displayed one Member of this House rose up and said, "It shall not be." That was the commencement, and that is now the continuance of every evil with which you are faced to-day. An hon. Gentleman says that I did not accept the Bill. Yes, I did, and certainly we all accepted it. Then I hear the Prime Minister say—and I think that it is unworthy of anyone holding a responsible position in this House—until he knows what the voice of Ireland is he will make no real or definite proposal. Did you not know opinion in Ireland for thirty years, and did not Ireland come here through the power of its Parliamentary representation and speak the convictions of 85 per cent. of the people; and did it not declare what it wanted. When it did declare what it wanted, and when Parliament believed it declared it; and when Parliament placed upon the Statute Book not all that Ireland wanted, but what Ireland was prepared to accept as an honest compromise, that compromise is torn to pieces, and the treaty is dealt with worse than a scrap of paper was besmeared by Prussians in Belgium; and when Ireland goes back into the position she occupies to-day where is the use of all this cant and humbug about the voice of Ireland. It is a cheap debating point, it is the mere play-acting of a man in a difficulty, who thinks that he can obscure a great national and international issue by dialectics of that sort in an inflammatory form.

I say that the reason you have trouble in Ireland to-day is because Ireland does not trust you. I was amazed to hear the right hon. Gentleman himself make that declaration. The Prime Minister said, "Our greatest difficulty is that we cannot get anyone in Ireland to believe us." That is the truest thing he said to-day. Nobody believes any British statesman in regard to Ireland, and that is why nobody will deal with you until you place on the Table some real, clear, definite solution of this problem. That is what you have to do, because do not imagine that the so-called Home Rule Bill which is being discussed now is a solution of the problem. The right hon. Gentleman says, "We cannot get anyone to say what will satisfy Ireland, and therefore we cannot do anything." He says, "If I cannot get something that responsible people will accept, let me produce something that nobody, responsible or irresponsible, will accept." That is a fine form of statesmanship. That is the alternative proposal. You are not to offer Ireland a full and complete measure of freedom, because you cannot find anyone big enough and strong enough to accept it, but let us offer Ireland something that everybody treats with contempt, and that is the very acme of statesmanship—certainly a novel doctrine to be preached at this stage of the world's progress and education.

He also sneered at self-determination. The next thing we will hear the right hon. Gentleman doing is denying that he delivered the Limehouse speech. Why, he is the father of the expression "self-determination." It was from him I got that phrase. He says: clear. A Republic the nation might desire. They were prepared—Parnell, Redmond, Dillon did it—to compromise with you. If that compromise had been carried out, Ireland would have kept faith with you. You have always broken your word to her; she has never broken her word to you. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] When? [HON. MEMBERS I "1916!"]

Is there a single responsible man, except my comfortable Friend opposite, who would make an accusation of that sort? It would not be made by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson). Why, in the early stages of the War, it was wonderful how Ireland rallied. There was something more wonderful still, and that was the superb courage, the dash, the spirit and the enterprise that Irish soldiers showed in a most fateful moment of the fortunes of the War, and their gallantry is recorded on the tablets of the story of the War in letters that can never be obliterated by the lying historian or the ignorant Member of Parliament. Yes, Sir, Ireland did play her part in the War, and she kept her word. I cannot forget that historic night when Mr. John Redmond rose here in the House, when the whole House was hanging on his words, and when at that moment of imperial danger he took a stand and he gave his life—for it meant the same thing—and his brother gave his life, his son went out to the War, many of his colleagues on these Benches went out to the War, and many of his colleagues in Ireland rallied—splendid and gallant men —to your support, and lost their children in this War. And then we are taunted here that Ireland did nothing in the War. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame!"]

It is characteristic. All that is now forgotten in the unhappy incidents that have occurred since, forgetful of the fact that the spirit to which John Redmond gave utterance here permeated Ireland for two years after the War, and if you want to know why Ireland did not continue to help you in the War, go and ask the Prime Minister. I heard him say at that Bench, when he was Minister for War, that the ineptitude and malignity of the War Office were responsible largely for the change which had taken place in the opinion of Ireland, and in her attitude towards this country. So do not throw the mantle of innocence and perfection around you, for you are neither innocent nor perfect. You are absolutely blameworthy for everything that has occurred. You had a friendly Ireland for 30 years, an Ireland whose friendship was of some value, an Ireland that was represented by men who preached the policy of good-will between the British and Irish nations, men who, like myself, went through America and preached the same policy. Everywhere we went we went with good-feeling, comradeship and co-operation between those two great people. Friendship would have meant so much. It means far more now, because you will never have the friendship of America, in my judgment, so long as you leave this Irish question in the position in which it is to-day.

I come to the point that to me is exceedingly important. I present it to the House to show the valuelessness of all these pretensions that we have seen put forward that this Bill is one for the maintenance of law and the establishing of order. In the course of that recital and litany of crime in Ireland, I noticed one arresting fact that was not mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman. Why amidst all the outrages was no reference made to what the Government proposed to do with regard to the 4,000 Catholic, Protestant, Labour men, Socialists and independent trade unionists who have been driven from their employment in the yards of Belfast? Did he once tell the House about the looting and destruction of Catholic property in Belfast, Ballymacarett, Dromore, and other Ulster centres. These people here committed no crime nor offence. The organised mob went down there, assaulted these men, drove them into the river, proceeded to wreck churches and convents, to loot the houses of respectable citizens and to destroy the whole city in order that these Catholic citizens might be prevented from discharging their citizen duties. Not a word was said about it! Why? Did the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary get orders from these Benches that he was not to refer to it?

The hon. Gentleman has alluded to me personally. We have arrested about 200 for outrages during the Belfast riots. Everyone will be tried and sentenced according to his deserts. [An HON. MEMBER: "Any Unionists?"] I should say the majority may be so described. [ Laughter. ] It is all very well to laugh, but I have to go back to Ireland to try to govern the country. There is not a single Member, so far as I know, of the Ulster party, there is not a single person in Ulster who will not be affected by this legislation; this is as applicable to the Ulster party as much as it will be applied to any other party in Ireland.

In the speech of the Prime Minister I noticed that he said the reason he was giving two days instead of one was to enable the list of crimes committed in Ireland to be recited with sufficient dramatic power. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] He mentioned all these outrages. Why was this particular outrage not mentioned? That is what I want to know. That is what the Labour party wants to know. [ Laughter. ] Yes, it is easy to laugh at the Labour party. The only place you do not laugh at them is the bye-elections. [An HON. MEMBER: "Oh!"] I hope I did not irritate the right hon. Gentleman by mentioning bye-elections?

The hon. Gentleman beat them; but he is the representative of all that is fine. This Government did not beat them, and it has no right to pass a Coercion Bill for this or any other country, because it has not the authority or sanction of the electorate of this country. I will not enter into the domestic strife of British politicians, but, as a humble observer of public events, I say that, if they did not adopt the cutthroat policy of fighting each other in the English elections, there would not be a hundred on the Benches opposite, and hon. Members would not be here to carry Coercion Acts, and you would not be here if the decisive opinion of England, Scot land, and Wales could be declared on the question of confidence or no confidence in the Government as administrators of this country, and the sooner you are out of power the better. You may pass your Coercion Act, but after it has passed you will pass away. I trust that the inheritors of the present Government will not, as a result of your policy, have a heavy burden of responsibility almost unbearable in consequence of what you are doing in Ireland. This Bill will not do any of the things which the Chief Secretary has prophesied, and it will destroy whatever moderate feeling there is in the country, and there will not be a moderate man left. You will create, by this policy, chaos and anarchy and more men will be driven into the Republican ranks. While your military machine may succeed for a time, I beg of you to remember that there was once a power in Europe, a great military machine, that thought it was omnipotent, and in the spirit of that idea it tried to crush human liberty. But the soul of nations rose against it, and the spirit of liberty proved to be greater than the materialistic and military regime. The machine was broken down, and the world for the moment was saved, and liberty will live again when you go down.

I want to ask, where are we? I was under the impression that the Government had asked us to arm them with very special powers to deal with a great emergency which has arisen in the administration of law and order in Ireland, and which has been accentuated by what happened at the recent July Assizes. I have listened in amazement and bewilderment to a dissertation upon Dominion Home Rule, self-determination, national conventions, and a variety of other subjects, all of which, during the few moments at my disposal, I propose to brush aside, with this one observation, that, so far as any arguments are concerned which have been addressed to us as to the non-necessity for this Bill, we ought at this time to face the facts and to recognise once and for ever that British rule in Ireland has gone. I take the last General Election, and I suppose the same thing would happen in Ireland, but perhaps to a greater degree, if there were another election today. You have the declared enemies of Great Britain and of the British rule overwhelmingly in the majority. You talk about the people of Ireland. I do not understand that phrase. The distinguished Member for Paisley used it. There is no such thing as the people of Ireland. You must speak of the peoples of Ireland. Until we recognise that there are two distinct peoples, two distinct races in religion and everything else, we shall never approach a solution of this question. My eloquent Friend who has just spoken claims to have put forward one possible solution; in another place I have suggested another solution, that in the end we must come to this conclusion, that there being two Irelands, two peoples and two races, you will have to recognise that fact, and either re-conquer Ireland by the sword or divide it into two Irelands—a British and an Independent Ireland. I do not propose, however, to pursue that line of argument. I think it is only by the greatest latitude on the part of Mr. Speaker that we have been permitted to roam over these realms of controversy to-day.

I want to come to this particular Measure. Why has the Government brought it in? With great respect to the Chief Secretary, I say I wish he had been a little more candid with the House. He would have strengthened his case if he had been. Why does he not tell us that our present forces are altogether inadequate; why does he not say he cannot get the troops for the Army in Ireland; why does he not say that the magistrates are resigning by shoals; why does he not say that the officers and men of the Royal Irish Constabulary are resigning by shoals? Why does he not tell us the truth as to the gravity of the situation? It cannot be over-stated. We have lost Ireland. Let us acknowledge it. We will never get it back except by the sword, and God forbid that that day should ever come. That is the position. What is the proposal to-day. He is on the Bill, and I would willingly vote for this or any other Bill if I thought it would end this era of crime and outrage which makes us the laughing spectacle of the civilised world with all our protestations of love and affection for small and struggling nations, and our swallowing Mr. Wilson's nostrums regarding self-determination and the freedom of the small States. I am convinced, and I say this in all sincerity, that this Bill will aggravate and not ameliorate the position, and I will tell the right hon. Gentleman why I say that. He says he cannot get jurors. Under the present law he can remove prisoners to other parts of Ireland for trial. Apart from that, why does he want courts-martial? Why introduce this military aggravation into the situation? Take your jurors away, you have your judges left. Why then insist on courts-martial?

I can conceive of no step more calculated to outrage and inflame Irish opinion than the introduction of this military system which is utterly unnecessary the moment you get power of trial without jury. I know something of the system of court-martial, and I do not adopt the Chief Secretary's eulogium of its equity or of the care with which the tribunals are conducted, nor do I feel satisfied that the additions of someone certified by the Lord Chancellor of Ireland or the Lord Chief Justice of England to be possessed of legal experience is to be added to the court. I have legal knowledge and experience of that class. I should be qualified to sit, but I am no applicant for the post, and in Committee I shall move an Amendment that a judge of the High Court shall be added to the court-martial if you must have one. I am not impressed that this Bill is going to help you out of your difficulty. It is true you have certain prisoners at present in your power. Leaving that on one side, how is this Bill going to help you to arrest criminals? I know this Bill assumes they are criminals before trial. I am amazed to read this passage in it: "shall extend to the trial and punishment of persons who have committed crimes in Ireland." I should have thought you first try them before you describe them as having committed crimes. How is this Bill going to help you to arrest the criminals? How is it going to help you to get witnesses against them? I really was amazed at the suggestion that, by closing the doors of the court, you would preclude any knowledge on the part of the outside public as to the identity of the witnesses. They would be watched going into the court. They would be watched coming out of the court, and the prisoner and his friends would spread all the necessary news. In the same way, I was rather amused at the suggestion that the provision which says that prisoners may be brought over to England to prisons here instead of in Ireland is a consideration for their personal comfort and convenience.

The result of this discussion shows us the absolute hopelessness of the situation. My friend behind me may have his scheme. The right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite may have his scheme; but, so long as you speak of the people of Ireland, you are confronted with the fact hat the people of Ireland, as tested by the polls at the last general election, are dead against British rule. You have got to face the fact that North-East Ireland and South-West Ireland are two distinct communities. You can never reconcile them. I have come to the conclusion that this Bill will only aggravate the position. Therefore, with every desire to do everything in my power, as every patriotic man wishes to do, to support the Government in any efforts to suppress crime, I say this Bill does not help you in any way. Instead of suppressing crime, instead of ameliorating the position, it will aggravate the situation. Therefore, with the greatest regret, I shall vote against the Bill.

This step will do more than any other step in the history of man to lose Ireland as part of the British Empire.

There have been men who have been striving for years for the recognition of their status as belligerents, and this Bill gives them that recognition. It is a Bill which will be used in Ireland by the Sinn Feiners as the last and positive proof that they are at war with the British people, and that they are entitled to use all the devices and stratagems of war in the prosecution of their campaign. Moreover, the money provisions of this Bill will go far to secure the fiscal separation of the two countries, because the diversion of the grants, which the Government is due to make to the local authorities in Ireland, will be the reason on which the Sinn Feiners will base their claim that they themselves should be entitled to collect the moneys, which they can collect, for the purpose of their own Irish Government.

It being Eleven of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the. Order of the House this day, to put forthwith the Question necessary to bring to a conclusion the proceedings on the Second Reading of the Bill.

Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 289; Noes, 71.

Division No. 308.]

AYES.

[11.0 p.m.

Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S.

Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend)

Larmor, Sir Joseph

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C.

Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry

Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C)

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Duncannon, Viscount

Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S.

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Lindsay, William Arthur

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Edgar, Clifford B.

Lister, Sir R. Ashton

Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

Edge, Captain William

Lloyd, George Butler

Astor, Viscountess

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P.

Atkey, A. R.

Falle, Major Sir Bertram G.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Austin, Sir Herbert

Farquharson, Major A. C.

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Lorden, John William

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

FitzRoy, Captain Hon. E. A.

Lori-Williams, J.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick)

Foreman, Henry

Lowther, Lt.-Col. Claude (Lancaster)

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Forrest, Walter

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Barlow, Sir Montague

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Lynn, R. J.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A.

Barnett, Major R. W.

Frece, Sir Walter de

Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)

Barnston, Major Harry

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester)

Barrie, Charles Coupar

Gange, E. Stanley

Macmaster, Donald

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C.

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge)

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Macquisten, F. A.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

Magnus, Sir Philip

Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart.(Gr'nw'h)

Goff, Sir R. Park

Mallaby-Deeley, Harry

Bennett, Thomas Jewell

Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Betterton, Henry B.

Green, Albert (Derby)

Martin, Captain A. E.

Bigland, Alfred

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Mitchell, William Lane

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar

Molson, Major John Elsdale

Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M.

Blair, Reginald

Greer, Harry

Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

Borwick, Major G. O.

Greig, Colonel James William

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Gretton, Colonel John

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Morrison, Hugh

Brassey, Major H. L. C.

Guest, Major O. (Leic., Loughboro')

Mount, William Arthur

Breese, Major Charles E.

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Bridgeman, William Clive

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Murchison, C. K.

Britton, G. B.

Hailwood, Augustine

Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh)

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Hall, Captain Douglas Bernard

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Brown, Captain D. C.

Hall, Rr-Admi Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W.D'by)

Murray, Major William (Dumfries)

Brown, T. W. (Down, North)

Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

Neal, Arthur

Bruton, Sir James

Hanna, George Boyle

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Harris, Sir Henry Percy

Nield, Sir Herbert

Burdett-Coutts, William

Haslam, Lewis

Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's)

Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H.

Butcher, Sir John George

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Campbell, J. D. G.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Parker, James

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Carr, W. Theodore

Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Perkins, Walter Frank

Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)

Hood, Joseph

Perring, William George

Casey, T. W.

Hope, sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.)

Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City)

Cautley, Henry S.

Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Pollock, Sir Ernest M.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

Prescott, Major W. H.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Chadwick, Sir Robert

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Pulley, Charles Thornton

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Birm., W.)

Hudson, R. M.

Purchase, H. G.

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H.

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W.

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Ramsden, G. T.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Rankin, Captain James S.

Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Ratcliffe, Henry Butler

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Jameson, J. Gordon

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Jesson, C.

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Reid, D. D.

Cory, Sir C. J. (Cornwall, St. Ives)

Johnson, Sir Stanley

Remer, J. R.

Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid)

Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Renwick, George

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Curzon, Commander Viscount

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey)

Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)

Davies, Sir David Sanders (Denbigh)

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Rogers, Sir Hallewell

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)

Kidd, James

Royden, Sir Thomas

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Dawes, James Arthur

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Norwood)

Denison-Pender, John C.

Knight, Major E. A. (Kidderminster)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead)

Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Taylor, J.

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool Exchange)

Thomas-Stanford, Charles

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Scott, Sir Samuel (St. Marylebone)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Winterton, Major Earl

Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Shortt, Rt. Hon E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Tryon, Major George Clement

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Smith, Harold (Warrington)

Turton, E. R.

Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)

Smithers, Sir Alfred W.

Vickers, Douglas

Wood, Major S. Hill- (High Peak)

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato

Stanier, Captain Sir Seville

Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

Yate, Colonel Charles Edward

Stanton, Charles B.

Weston, Colonel John W.

Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich)

Stewart, Gershom

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

Sturrock, J. Leng

Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Sugden, W. H.

Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.)

Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward.

Sutherland, Sir William

Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald

Sykes, Colonel Sir A. J. (Knutsford)

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. F. D.

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Harbison, Thomas James S.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Hayward, Major Evan

Robertson, John

Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

Hirst, G. H.

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hogge, James Myles

Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John

Bottomley, Horatio W.

Holmes, J. Stanley

Sexton, James

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Irving, Dan

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Briant, Frank

Johnstone, Joseph

Sitch, Charles H.

Bromfield, William

Kelly, Edward J. (Donegal, East)

Smith, W. R. (Weillngborough)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Spencer, George A.

Cairns, John

Kiley, James D.

Spoor, B. G.

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Swan, J. E.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

Lawson, John J.

Thome, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely)

Lunn, William

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)

Waterson, A. E.

Devlin, Joseph

Malone, C. L. (Leyton, E.)

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Donnelly, P.

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Wignall, James

Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham, S.)

Mills, John Edmund

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen)

Wintringham, T.

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness and Ross)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Glanville, Harold James

Myers, Thomas

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

O'Connor, Thomas P.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

O'Grady, Captain James

Mr. Tyson Wilson and Mr. Frederick Hall.

Grundy, T. W.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Bill read a Second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ Sir Hamar Greenwood. ]

Telegraph (Money) Bill

Not amended ( in the Standing Committee ) considered.

Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.

Post Office and Telegraph Bill

As amended ( in the Standing Committee ), considered.

CLAUSE 2.—(Variation of statutory limits on rates for telegrams and inland registered newspapers.)

(2) A maximum rate of one penny up to the first six ounces and an additional halfpenny for every six ounces or fractional part of six ounces over and above the first or any additional six ounces up to such maximum weight as may be fixed by the Postmaster-General shall be substituted for the maximum rate for each inland registered newspaper under paragraph (iii) of proviso ( b ) of Sub-section (1) of Section two of the Post Office Act, 1908, as amended by paragraph ( a ) of Section one of the Post Office and Telegraph Act, 1915.

I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (2).

The object of this Bill is to raise the postage of newspapers from ½d. to ld. I do not think there has been a case made out for the increase. The matter has not been seriously discussed. An important proposal of this kind affecting the social life of the people ought not to be passed without some discussion. This is of sufficient importance to have this Amendment proposed so that at any rate we shall give the Postmaster-General an opportunity to give a detailed justification for these new departures affecting such a large number of the population. This proposal is going to affect the people who live in the rural parts and the Bill has been rushed through at such a late hour that the people in the country have hardly realised how they are affected. The only justification given by the Postmaster-General was that there was a loss of about £200,000 on the carriage of newspapers by the Post Office. He did not tell us how that loss was made up or convince the House that there was any ground for it. Even if there was, the reduction that would follow in the number of newspapers going through the post would go far to nullify the right hon. Gentleman's expectations as to increased receipts. This would be an unfair tax on rural communities and the town would not suffer. I was told that the town dwellers were at present taxed to this extent on account of the people who lived in rural parts. That is not a fair argument, for the town dwellers get much more benefit than the country dweller. In London the deliveries are a nuisance, six or seven times a day, while in the rural parts they are two or three times a week. The fact that there is a loss of £200,000 shows that hundreds of thousands of people can only get their newspapers through the post. If this rate is increased, it will result, as it has done already owing to the price of papers being doubled or trebled, in making them do without. It was stated yesterday that the Postmaster-General or the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when they go for a holiday in the country, think it one of the advantages of living in the country that they get rid of letters and newspapers, telegraphs and telephones, and other nuisances of civilisation. That is not the way in which the ordinary dweller in the country looks upon the newspaper. He watches for the arrival of the postman in order to get his newspaper, and, perhaps, to read hon. Members' speeches. We are bidding good-bye to the penny post without even a funeral. The institution of penny postage bulked largely in the reforms of the 19th century, and to abolish it is almost an outrage on the memory of past reformers. Some imagination is wanted. We should not consider the question from a purely commercial standpoint. Financiers of the last century, Gladstone and others, used to consider the social effect of a tax. Such considerations do not seem to concern a Chancellor of the Exchequer or a Postmaster-General in these days. If you want a really intelligent rural population then I ask you to support this Amendment.

I beg to second the Amendment.

I agree with everything the Member has so eloquently said with regard to the disadvantages under which people in rural districts suffer. I long for the day when we may have a Postmaster-General representing a rural constituency, and when the interests of dwellers in our rural districts will receive the attention they deserve. This tax if persisted in will make it not only difficult, but almost impossible for many dwellers in rural districts to obtain newspapers, which in Scotland are posted to those districts from the towns. It is another instance of the inadequate attention paid to the needs of rural districts. I referred to this subject also on a Bill dealing with telephone facilities. Dwellers in the towns have many advantages. Any Members or Member can get a newspaper at the nearest bookstall but those who receive them by post will be under a serious disadvantage if this proposal is passed.

I support the Amendment, and think it is lamentable that anything should be done to affect the rural areas in this way and to prevent the circulation of newspapers, of whatever politics they may be. I do not think the Postmaster-General fully realises the importance of this point in regard to the economical distribution of newspapers. I scarcely hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to respond to the appeal made to him now, but I trust that this or some future Government will not readily concede every proposal made by the Treasury which has the effect of preventing the distribution of literature in rural areas. It seems to me that we are far too ready to see increases in postage rates in every direction, and when one remembers the long and strenuous fights carried through by postal reformers in the past to get cheaper postage rates, I think there was truth in the charge made by the hon. member when he said there was a great lack of imagination on the part of the postal authorities. I do not know whether it is in order, but I would like for a moment to refer to postcards. The three-halfpence which is going to be imposed for postcards is going to have the most serious effect, I believe, on the Post Office itself, and much as we all realise the need for raising revenue, the Post Office——

Then I will not pursue that point, but the Post Office after all represent one of the most important parts of the machinery of business and social amenities and should get as far as possible away from the idea that the Treasury can come in at any moment, and say, "We wish you to raise more money." We want cheap postage in every direction.

I am afraid my hon. Friend the Member for the Western Isles (Dr. Murray) has given the wrong figures in regard to the carriage of newspapers. The figure of £200,000 which he gave is an ancient one. It is very much more than that now, and although it is difficult to say exactly what the sum is, I think I am safe in saying that it is nearer £1,000,000 than £200,000.

For newspapers alone. There is always a demand in this House for economy and that subsidies should not be continued, but if the postage on newspapers remains as it is at present it means in effect continuing or increasing the subsidy to the newspaper trade. Further, the newspapers have all been doubled in price, and the reason for increasing the newspaper postage is the same reason as the newspapers have had for increasing their price, namely, the increase of cost which everything in the country is suffering from at the present moment. It will not decrease the revenue but increase it. My advisers, after carefully considering it and making allowance for a certain decrease of newspapers carried, think it will increase the Post Office revenue by fully £200,000, and perhaps rather more. I am afraid, therefore, I cannot accept the Amendment.

Do I understand from that, that even with this increased charge, the Postmaster-General still anticipates a loss of £800,000 on the carriage of newspapers? They are very alarming figures.

Somewhere in that region, but if we increase the rate more than a halfpenny, I am afraid it would not bring in any more revenue.

Could not any step be taken to reduce the cost of the, work of the Post Office? Otherwise, it seems a most unsound commercial transaction.

In a business every article does not pay. The profit on one article has to make up for the loss on another article. You cannot make everything pay. In a sense, I say, if you were to increase the postage on newspapers, instead of increasing revenue, it would decrease it.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 148; Noes, 35.

Division No. 309.]

AYES.

[11.36 p.m.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C.

Brown, Captain D. C.

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Brown, T. W. (Down, North)

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S.

Bruton, Sir James

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Atkey, A. R.

Carter, R. (Manch., Withington)

Gange, E. Stanley

Austin, Sir Herbert

Casey, T. W.

Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C.

Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)

Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge)

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Chadwick, Sir Robert

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W.

Gilbert, James Daniel

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

Barlow, Sir Montague

Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

Goff, Sir R. Park

Barnett, Major R. W.

Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid.)

Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)

Barnston, Major Harry

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Green, Albert (Derby)

Barrie, Charles Coupar

Dawes, James Arthur

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Edgar, Clifford B.

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Edge, Captain William

Greig, Colonel James William

Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Blair, Reginald

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Berwick, Major G. O.

Farquharson, Major A. C.

Hailwood, Augustine

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Llv'p'l, W. D'by)

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

Breese, Major Charles E.

Foreman, Henry

Hanna, George Boyle

Britton, G. B.

Forrest, Walter

Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool Exchange)

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh)

Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John

Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Murray, Major William (Dumfries)

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Neal, Arthur

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Stewart, Gershom

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H.

Parker, James

Sugden, W. H.

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Sutherland, Sir William

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead)

Jameson, J. Gordon

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Vickers, Douglas

Jesson, C.

Pollock, Sir Ernest M.

Wallace, J.

Johnson, Sir Stanley

Prescott, Major W. H.

Walters, Rt. Hon. sir John Tudor

Johnstone, Joseph

Pulley, Charles Thornton

Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Weston, Colonel John W.

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Rankin, Captain James S.

Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

Kidd, James

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

Kiley, James D.

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.)

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Rees, Sir J. D.

Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald

Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

Renwick, G.

Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

Lewis, T. A. (Glamorgan, Pontyp'd)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Lister, Sir R. Ashton

Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Lort-Williams, J.

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Royden, Sir Thomas

Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

Lynn, R. J.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Mitchell, William Lane

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward.

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Mosley, Oswald

NOES.

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Harbison, Thomas James S.

Spoor, B. G.

Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

Kelly, Edward J. (Donegal, East)

Sturrock, J. Leng

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Swan, J. E.

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Lawson, John J.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Bromfield, William

Lunn, William

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

O'Grady, Captain James

Waterson, A. E.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Sexton, James

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Devlin, Joseph

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Donnelly, P.

Sitch, Charles H.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Dr. Murray and Lieut.-Colonel A. Murray.

Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)

Spencer, George A.

CLAUSE 3.—(Amendment of 45 and 46 Vict. c. 74.)

(1) In order to ascertain for the purposes of the Post Office (Parcels) Act, 1882, the gross receipts of the Postmaster-General from parcels conveyed by railway, the Postmaster-General shall in every year cause returns, comprising such particulars as may be agreed between the Postmaster-General and the London Railway Clearing Committee to be necessary for the purposes of this Section, to be obtained with respect to the parcels so conveyed during such period in the year or during such periods in different parts of the year as may be so agreed, and such returns shall, so far as may be agreed between the Postmaster-General and the said committee, be in substitution for, or in modification of, the accounts which the Postmaster-General is required to render under Subsection (1) of Section five of the Post Office (Parcels) Act, 1882, and nothing in the Post Office (Parcels) Act, 1882, shall require the Postmaster-General to keep accounts showing the number of parcels actually conveyed by railway during any period, except in so far as may be necessary for the purposes of the returns herein provided for.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (1) leave out the words "and nothing in the Post Office (Parcels) Act, 1882," and insert instead thereof the words "In the case of any such agreement the amount to be paid to the railway companies through the London Railway Clearing Committee shall, instead of being an amount determined in manner provided by Sub-section (1) of Section 5 of the Post Office (Parcels) Act, 1882, be such amount as may be agreed upon between the Postmaster-General and the said Committee on the basis of the returns, and nothing in that Act."—[ Mr. Illingworth. ]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

I think this Bill is one of the worst examples of legislation by reference that I have ever known. The people affected by it know absolutely nothing about it.

We have been told that the Government has resolved to run this Department on commercial lines, but they are starting too late. A well-managed business makes provision in fat years for lean years, but the Post Office has not done this. If this Department is going to be run on commercial lines, a reserve fund will have to be created to meet deficiencies in bad years. I was rather surprised at the remark made by the Postmaster-General that a loss was incurred in the carrying of newspapers, and that he attributed this to the high rates charged by the railway companies for conveying newspapers from London to Scotland and other long journeys. May I point out, on the other hand, that the right hon. Gentleman made no reference to the profit made on the postage of newspapers for short distances, and all these things must be taken into consideration when you are considering the running of a business on sound commercial lines. There is another side to the question. If the working out of this measure results in a reduction of the number of newspapers or book packets sent through the post that means that the Post Office will not require the staff which they now employ. If there is less work less staff will be required. Will the Postmaster-General see that if there is to be a reduction of the staff he will begin by reducing the number of men who receive very large salaries?

I want to call the attention of the House to the question of the rate of postage for picture postcards. This is a matter which is going seriously to affect the conditions of employment in this country. The Postmaster-General and the Chancellor of the Exchequer seem determined to shut their eyes to the consequences of the action it is intended to take after the statutory postal rates are repealed for picture postcards. The Chancellor was questioned in the House yesterday, and I ventured to put a supply question which was answered by the Postmaster-General, who was prompted by the Chancellor. I have no objection to that if the reply had met the question. My question was whether a proposal could be considered for allowing picture postcards, provided they contained no additional writing other than the address, to bear a postage of ld. instead of 1½d. as now intended.

The picture postcard industry has been very largely built up during the War. An industry has been created which the Germans formerly carried on. 70,000 men are employed. This new proposal to charge 1½d. for postage as to ½d. before the War—an increase of 150 per cent. instead of, as is the case of letters, 100 per cent. What is the justification for that increase? The right hon. Gentleman says that it is not a commercial proposition to carry picture postcards. How does he establish that? Three ozs. of written matter absolutely useless to the country from the point of view of employment, may be carried for 2d. It takes 18 picture postcards to equal three ounces of written matter, which gives no employment to anybody except for the writing. Eighteen picture postcards cost 1s. 6d., that is to-gay 1s. 4d. more than a letter of three ozs. The right hon Gentleman now proposes to make by the extra ½d. that 1s. 4d. into 2s. 3d. while written matter is carried for 2d.! Where is the justification for that anomaly? One would have thought when at the present time, employment was a serious question that the right hon. Gentleman would be prepared to consider a proposal if it was likely, in the opinion of those best qualified to express an opinion to affect employment. Even if Clause 1 is passed I ask my right hon. Friend to give an assurance that the Committee and he will not raise the carriage of picture postcards above 1d., which will still allow a very large profit upon their carriage compared with letters.

When you compare it with the newspaper rate the argument is a still stranger one. The production of newspapers is in itself a big and important industry. The right hon. Gentleman in answer to my supplementary question said that it cost just as much to carry a picture postcard as a letter. That was apparently, if I may gather from the conversation, information he obtained from the Chancellor. It could not have been his own information, because what I said I hope satisfied him that it is not accurate, as it only costs l–18th as much to carry a picture postcard as a letter. The curious thing about it is that at the International Postal Congress to be held in October at Madrid there is to be discussed precisely the same distinction between picture postcards that contain no writing except the address and postcards that do contain writing.

If the right hon. Gentleman does not agree to the representations made to him, we are faced with the extinction of an industry, which is of value to this country, especially at the present time, in order that a charge may be put upon picture postcards to make up the losses, I suppose, in other directions. If the right hon. Gentleman thinks that that is very satisfactory, I differ from him. In my own constituency it will make an enormous difference. Hundreds of men will be thrown out of employment, because it stands to reason when you put 1½d. on a picture postcard it will cost about 2d. to the purchaser, and nobody will purchase picture postcards at that price. The right hon. Gentleman can allay the anxiety that is felt in all circles of this trade if he will state that it is not the Intention of the Government to impose a higher rate than 1d. apiece, which will more than pay for the cost of the card as compared with printed matter and written matter, and I ask for that assurance.

The House is grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for bringing this question of picture postcards before it. There is one section of the community to which this burden will do great injustice. Many people who are engaged in an industry of this kind are disabled soldiers, and to do anything that would be detrimental to the employment of these men would be a grave scandal on the part of H.M. Government. My right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General, in the Committee stage of this Bill this evening, said it was the Government's intention to dispense with subsidies. But the Bill which he is now introducing upon this Third Reading is a flat contradiction of that statement. Take, for instance, the question of telegrams. He will not disagree with me when I say that the loss on press telegrams exceeds more than £200,000 a year. Is it with the intention of subsidising the newspaper authorities of this country that he is allowing this to proceed? The Press of this country, as a whole, are well able to pay this burden themselves. We are repeatedly told that there are many daily newspapers running that could quite freely give their newspapers away each day, because the income that they receive from advertisements pays for the expense of the printing of those newspapers. I submit, upon these lines, to the Postmaster-General that something should be done to make the Press of this country pay a little more towards the upkeep of this institution of which they take the benefit.

12 M.

May I also draw his attention to something which I believe would be of advantage to his Department, and that is to decrease the ordinary charges and give more facilities. The greater the facilities the more the general public would participate in them. To put up the price of telegrams to a minimum of a shilling is creating a hardship, particularly upon working people of this country. I am reminded, when I think of this, of a Select Committee of the House of Commons, following the Treasury Committee of 1875. They agreed with that point of view, and stated that in their opinion the increase of business would more than compensate for the apparent loss. Another matter to which, I think, the right hon. Gentleman's attention ought to be drawn, is that of the distinction between urgent and non-urgent telegrams. Could not some arrangement be made whereby telegrams, the immediate despatch of which is necessary, could be subject to some little extra charge in consideration of such special facilities? Something ought to be done in the direction of an increase in the rates for press telegrams. The Post master-General admitted, in answer to a question on the 21st June, that there has been a loss on these rates, and I would remind him that that loss is borne by the taxpayer. The Government is out on a plea of economy. I am convinced that wealthy newspapers ought not to benefit by a subsidy from the country, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will direct his attention to the removal of this preferential treatment at the earliest possible moment.

I should like the Postmaster-General to tell us what is his reason for demanding a fee of 1½d. for the carrying of these cards. Since he is prepared to carry a newspaper weighing six ounces for 1d., it appears to me that it cannot be on the ground of the cost of carrying the postcard. I should also like him to tell us whether the proposed increase will apply to postcards sent by book post. If I send a card by book post, I can, surely, send it at the same rate as a newspaper; and I can send, not only an ordinary postcard, but a card three times the usual size. That would go for Id. so long as I write on the front of it "Book Post." If I am not correct, perhaps the Postmaster-General will advise me. Has the Postmaster-General considered the risk he runs of losing a considerable amount of business by this unusually large increase? When a person goes for a holiday, or on a journey, it is not uncommon for him to buy a dozen or so of cards and send them back. That does not involve an increase in the number of postmen, but it does bring in revenue. I should also like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he would give an assurance that this increase will not come into operation unless the other great Powers, who are to meet in conference at Madrid, agree that the same rate shall be charged in their respective countries. Otherwise we might have the possibility that, while a postcard might be sent, say, to France for 1d., it might cost 1½d. to send it from one place to another within this country.

I have noticed about this Government that it never loses an opportunity of taxing children. Toys and musical instruments are one example, and this is another. I refer, of course, to the ridiculously high increase of postage on picture postcards. The people who take the greatest delight in picture postcards are children, and I add that plea to the Postmaster-General in asking him to stay his hand in this extreme increase. I raised the point on the Second Reading. And the right hon. Gentleman was rather vague in his reply, though I thought not unsympathetic. I hope he will now be a little more definite, and give an assurance that the needs of the industry have been carefully considered before the price has been put up. I want to ask two questions. Is it a fact that it is possible to have a private telegraph line put in from, say, London to Glasgow or further for £10 a week, because it is impossible for that to be run except at a very heavy loss. It means two men on duty continually, one at each end. That means a shift of three at each end in the twenty-four hours, and with the installation cost and the high wages to-day I do not see how it can be run for anything like £10 a week. If that is so it means that the ordinary telegraph user has to pay for cheap private telegraph wires, which, of course, only wealthy corporations can afford, and if that is the case it seems to me extraordinarily bad policy. The second question is this. In talking about this great loss on the Post Office, which is held to justify these increases, which will hit so many poor people very hard. Had the Post Office taken into consideration the extraordinarily increased amount of work rose in the Post Office on behalf of other Government Departments? The Pensions Department throws a lot of work on the Post Office, especially in the country, and the war, generally speaking, brought a great deal of extra work on the Post Office, which must have meant extra staffs. Is the cost of this extra work taken into consideration? If so, it is most unfair to make that an excuse for abolishing penny postage, killing the postcard industry, and driving people out of the rural districts because they cannot get newspapers, and I suppose we shall be told by the newspaper proprietors that it will ruin them as well.

I am in favour of the Bill because I think a subsidy is obviously undesirable, and certainly will be passed on to the consumer. I fully agree with those who say what a very grave matter it is for poor people to have additional taxation put on. Can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that this thing will be run without any further request for a subsidy? I have heard with some alarm that even with this increased tax on newspapers there is an anticipated loss of £800,000 a year on the carriage of newspapers, and we heard from another Member that there is a very large loss on press telegrams, which are both for the benefit of newspaper proprietors. I resist any approach to a subsidy for anyone's benefit at all, whoever the person may be. I want an assurance before we pass the Bill that the Post Office will in future be a paying concern. The right hon. Gentleman must also tell us whether he still anticipates a heavy loss. Nothing has been more unsatisfactory than the past state of affairs. I have ample cause to complain of the Post Office service in the City, and it is undesirable that there should be this tremendous deficit on it. There is no City in the world which has been so badly served in the past 18 months so far as postal delivery is concerned. I want to be satisfied that this loss, which I attribute to gross extravagance in many ways, which occurred in most cases before the right hon. Gentleman was in his present office, will not continue.

The Postmaster-General has used the argument on various Clauses of this Bill that his Department ought to be made a business proposition. I think most of us agree with that. If the Department is to be made a business proposition this is a very bad Bill indeed. Hon. Members opposite made that very clear on the question of picture postcards. I want to deal with an item mentioned in the second Clause, the question of telegrams. In our local areas in the last year or two there has been a demand for an increase in the number of local telegram offices. When we have applied we have been asked to give a guarantee, in one case particularly, and I have heard of similar things in questions in the House. In one case they were asked for a guarantee of £11 or £12 before they were allowed to have a local telegraph office. The local people agreed and almost by return of post they were told they had to guarantee something like £18 or £19. If they had to guarantee this much, the increase from 9d. to 1s. on telegrams, will not exactly extend the business of the telegraph system in our rural areas, and they are going to suffer in that direction as they will from the point of view of newspapers. The business of the Post Office ought to be to encourage the local areas to link up in every possible way, and instead of increasing business by increasing the price they will decrease it, and it will be a business proposition to keep the telegrams at the same price and strive to lower them by extending business. The right hon. Gentleman argued that because newspapers had gone up therefore there was some reason for increasing the price of postage for newspapers. I can scarcely understand an argument like that. It appears as if the Government is not going to subsidise the poorer people, and particularly in rural areas they are going to have to pay the subsidy. It seems to me the Department ought to seek to meet the business proposition by extending it so that the bulk of the people, the poorest, can benefit from the point of view either of postcards, newspapers or telegrams, and in that way, by extending business, it seems to me they will be put upon a business basis and be made a proper paying proposition. From that point of view this Bill is not a good one at all, and I hope we shall get a fairly decent vote against it in order to stir up the Department to make it a proper busi- ness proposition, not merely of reaping profits for the Government, but of serving the needs of the people of this country.

I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question with regard to the increase in rates for telegrams. I would like him to answer some of the questions put as to the cost of press telegrams and the loss in that respect. I would also like to ask him the effect that the increase in the price of telegrams will have on the fish trade? That industry is peculiar in so far as it uses an enormous number of telegrams. I presume that if there are special rates given to press telegrams that it is due to the fact that special considerations are supposed to apply to make it necessary for the Government to make some loss on them. I do not ask for a loss in connection with the telegrams sent by fish merchants and others in the fish industry; but does he not think that some special rates or provisions should be made for fish merchants as the result of which no loss would accrue to the Post Office at all? If he leaves the rate at what it is, does he not consider that the result will be a loss owing to the reduced number of telegrams sent? That will have an effect on the prices of fish, because the increased cost of telegrams will affect the facilities of people for getting this necessary food. It might be possible and wise from his, as well as from the public, point of view that there should be arrangements whereby fish merchants who use so many telegrams per day should have special rates applicable, and should not bear the increased charge, which falls far more heavily on this industry than on any other industry in the country.

I think the hon. Member for Bristol takes rather too gloomy a view of what will happen if the rate for postcards be increased. The cost of handling up to two or three ounces does not go so much by the weight, but by the number "of articles that have to be handled and passed from hand to hand, and there is where the increased cost comes. I expected him to say something on which he founded his argument from the experience they have had of the decrease in the amount of picture postcards on account of the great increases made in the charge for producing these articles. As he said nothing about that, I presume that nothing serious has happened, and I do not think anything very serious will happen in the future on account of the increased postage. The increased charges are to cover a loss, but in any case we do not propose to put up the prices on these articles until the Postal Congress has met and settled what the rates will be.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make the same distinction as is proposed by the French Post Office in respect of the postcard with five words upon it and other postcards?

I cannot answer that question: Then as to Press telegrams. They have been considerably increased, and if they are increased any more, instead of increasing the revenue I am advised it will result in a decrease.

The 1st January. When the vast majority of the Press telegrams are sent over the wires there is no other traffic. If Press telegrams were not going over them, there would be no revenue at all. As to the price of a private wire from London to Glasgow, I hope the hon. Member will pardon me if at a moment's notice I cannot tell him the cost of a private wire to any town in the country. Naturally I cannot carry all these things in my head. If the hon. Member wishes for information I will get it, and let him know.

The question is not one of a wire from London to Glasgow but whether they are run at a loss, and what it is?

I cannot say about that, but if the hon. Member wishes I will get the information and let him have it to the best of my ability. The services rendered to other departments of the Government are paid for. We are credited from time to time with every postal, telegraphic, or telephonic service which we render to them, or with any other services, such as pensions, old age pensions, and separation allowances. When all these charges, which are proposed in the Budget and in this Bill, are carried out, they will put the Post Office on a paying basis. It is estimated that there will be a slight margin over, and in a full year—we have not got a full year—I am quite certain that the increased charges will put the Post Office as a whole on a paying basis and do away with any subsidy in the future.

Before we depart from this Bill, as this Third Heading is the last opportunity we have of speaking on it, I want to point out the Bill abrogates the great safeguard the public have always had as to the limits of charge which the Post Office may make. From the first Postal Act in 1710 to the last Act in 1918, Parliament has always kept control over the amount that the Postmaster-General may charge for his services. This service has always been regarded, not only as a commercial service, but as a social service rendered to the people of this country, and I want to point out to the House, in case it should be overlooked, that after the passage of this Bill to-night, there will be no longer any opposition in the way of the Postmaster-General, of his own volition and without any consent of Parliament, charging exactly what he likes for the transmission of letters or postcards. He can put the charges up tomorrow to threepence per letter or twopence per postcard if he likes. That is a very important step and it should be noted by the House of Commons.

Question, "That the Bill be now read the Third time," put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

Pensions (Increase) Bill

As amended ( in the Standing Committee ), considered.

The hon. Member for Farnworth (Captain Bagley) has given notice of an Amendment to add, at the end of Clause 1 ( Power to increase certain pensions ), the words

"and, in the case of any pensioner entitled under this Act to an increased pension but who may have died since the first day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty, before receiving any increase, the amount of such increase, reckoned to the day of his death, shall be paid to his widow or children, if any."

The effect would be to impose a charge, and therefore the question could not be raised.

If I might explain, this was an Amendment put down by the hon. and gallant Member in Committee, and it was passed over. The only object of it is to ensure, seeing that this Bill increases the pensions for pensioners as from 1st April, and seeing that some of the pensioners have died in the meantime, that the widows should get that increase which they would have drawn up to the time of death had this Bill been passed on 1st April. If an assurance be given that they will get this, that is all that is desired.

The Amendment to which my hon. Friend refers was ruled out in Committee as being out of order, and it is now out of order as being an increased charge. What my hon. Friend is desiring is that the pensioners, or rather the person who, had he lived, would be entitled to the increased pension, notwithstanding that he had not lived and had not qualified under the Bill. That is introducing a new Clause. This Bill refers only to those who are living at the date of the Bill. The hon. Member wants to introduce people not living at the date of the Bill, but people who have died between the 1st April and the date of this Bill. That would be increasing the charge upon the State, and therefore, I submit, would be out of order.

Bill to be read the Third time tomorrow (Friday).

Census (Ireland) Bill [Lords]

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

The Bill I have to submit to the House makes provision for the Census in Ireland in 1921: It provides for the Census being taken upon the 24th of April in that year. It contains the usual provisions that refer to the appointment of enumerators by the Lord-Lieutenant, and also provisions for the expenses incurred by the Government in taking the Census, and, as is usual in these cases, provision for certificates being evidence of the population.

At this hour of the morning the introduction of this Bill was like comic opera. We have had the deliberations on a Bill, one of the most important Bills introduced in this House, introducing coercion into Ireland, cut short for the purpose of giving the Government the opportunity to bring in this Bill for taking the Census of Ireland. I do not know whether this illustrates the sense of proportion which the Government have in regarding this Bill as being of more importance than the Bill for introducing coercion. One is entitled to ask what is the urgency in the matter? We have had a very brief explanation of the measure from the Attorney-General. As far as one can see, from looking at the Bill, the Census is not proposed to be taken until the 24th day of April next year. A good deal of water will flow under the bridges before that time. It may very well be that the conditions in Ireland at that time may be such as will not be propitious for taking a census, or, it may be if things turn out differently from what the situation presages, that there may be such a solution of the Irish problem by which there may be a Parliament in Southern or Northern Ireland which would be properly charged with this duty. We are entitled to know one or two things which have not been made plain by the Attorney-General. We have a Bill for taking the Census which applies to England and Scotland, and from which Ireland is excluded. Now, a separate Bill is brought in for Ireland, and if the two Bills are compared it will be found there are some very important differences upon which we should have some explanation.

In the first place, when the Bill for taking the Census in this country was introduced an hon. and gallant Member made some observations upon the very important character of that Bill, and upon the amount of scrutiny which the House in previous years had directed upon Census Bills. He pointed out that a great many particulars were required and that some of those particulars were of a very inquisitional character; and that this in the past had been very careful indeed that no particulars should be put to His Majesty's subjects that were not absolutely essential and that the House should retain in its own hands what those par- ticulars were. In answer to that criticism the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board pointed out that the Bill, so far as this country and Scotland were concerned, did contain a safeguard. I think the safeguard was not very much appreciated, but still there it was—that before a Census could be taken in this country an Order in Council had to be made, and that Order in Council was laid before this House. It had to set out the particulars which were to be asked. But when one turns to the Irish Bill one finds there is no such provision inserted in the Bill.

That appears to me to be a very serious omission certainly at this present time in the present state of feeling in Ireland. The Government should be most particular that in its legislation there should be nothing that can be looked upon as exceptional in its character, and that those who come under the provisions of this Bill were not to be similarly safeguarded. I would like to ask the Attorney-General whether that is not an omission that could be put right in Committtee, and whether the susceptibilities and sensibility of the Irish people ought not to be safeguarded to an equal degree as were those of the people of this country. Perhaps the Attorney-General will explain to us why, seeing that in Ireland there appears to be a Registrar-General of Births, Deaths and Marriages as there is in this country, the census in Ireland is being carried out by the Lord-Lieutenant and not by the Registrar-General. In the English Bill the duty of making the census and of preparing all the forms is laid upon the Registrar-General, and one would like to know what reason is there for departing from that course of procedure in connection with Ireland. Lastly, I would like to ask that it does seem rather unfortunate that on a day when a measure is brought in to deal with the state of crime in Ireland we should be bringing in a Bill which sets up a new offence. Under Clause 7 of the Bill there are several offences which may be committed by an enumerator or by a person who is asked to answer the questions asked by that enumerator. I would like to ask the Attorney-General on that point whether the offences committed under this Bill were offences which will come under the Bill the Second Reading of which has been before this House. I think all these matters are points of substance to which the right hon. Gentleman should give some reply before we are asked to pass this Bill.

This is a very extraordinary Bill in every way. I am sorry the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Sturrock) has gone, as we passed last night the Census Bill for England and Scotland——

The reason why I think this Bill is extraordinary is that it differs radically from the English and Scottish Bill. In that Bill we have a fairly definite Schedule through one or two of the items are vague. In Clause 2 of the Ireland Bill, Sub-section 2, it is provided that the Lord-Lieutenant may require the sex, age, religious profession, birthplace, etc., of the unfortunate people who are going to be numbered. But in Clause 5 it says that such forms and instructions may be prepared by the Lord Lieutenant as he may think necessary. These refer to the power for taking the Census and so on. I would like to ask in addition to the question asked by the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle why the schedule is put in and why in fact is the Bill treated on totally different lines from the English Bill. The Bill is called the Ireland Census Bill 1920, but it lays down that the Census is to be taken in 1921. I do not know whether this is the usual practice with regard to Census Bills, I understand they have been passed ten years for a great number of years in this country but why not call it the Census of Ireland Bill, 1921. The great objection to this Bill and why I shall vote against it, is that it might be well left to whatever body is governing Ireland next year. The date given is Sunday the 24th April, 1921. The Minister of Health told me last night that the time taken to prepare the forms and set up the offices for the English Census is some six months. I do not think it will take as long as that in Ireland, but to be on the safe side let us suppose it takes 6 months, then you have at any rate got till the autumn of this year, and the Bill might just as well have been left over to the Autumn Session. It will only create irritation in Ireland.

The mass of the people in the South and West resent any executive acts of the Government. They do not recognise the British Government. It may be a pose, but that is the pose they are acting, and they will certainly resist the taking of a Census. I would like the Attorney-General for Ireland to tell us how many tanks he will require for the collection of these census forms on Sunday morning, 24th April, 1921? As he knows only too well it is, unfortunately, the sad part that the main object of the majority of the people in the South and West is to resist our Government and its officials in every way and to make it ridiculous. To suggest taking a census is a great waste of money, and is bound to cause irritation, because people will say immediately that the figures are not required for any legitimate statistics, not required by the members of the medical profession, but required to assist the espionage service in Ireland. When I read the Schedule of the English Bill I thought possibly the espionage service of this country had something to do with some of the extraordinary details asked for, until the Minister for Health assured me that that was not the case, and of course I accept his word. I always accept the words of Ministers until I find they have been misinformed. But in Ireland they do not accept Ministers' statements and they have bitter reason for not doing so, and no explanations on the floor of the House will allay that suspicion, and the first charge made will be that this is a means for the Government to get information for waging hostilities against the Irish people. I am adopting the language that will be used in every village and in every meeting place where men gather together in the South and West of Ireland. This is going to be an expense in addition, and I might say, in passing, that there has been no financial Resolution and, as far as I know, no indication has been given of what the cost is going to be. In 1911 the Census in Scotland cost £41,200, and with the increase of prices now, we may take it, I suppose, that a census which will not be effective, because it is almost certain to be ignored, will cost something like £80,000 or £90,000. For these considerations and because of the obvious futility of this measure, at this time, on this night, after what has happened during the last few hours before this Bill came on, I shall vote against it and I hope hon. Members will support me.

I simply wish to add my protest against taking this Bill on this night. There are good jokes and there are bad jokes, and taking this Bill on this night is a bad joke. There is no getting away from it. We have carried a Coercion Bill of a most drastic character to say that there shall not be trial by jury, and to say that they shall not have this, or that, or the other—that they shall not have Home Rule—but that, in order to do something for the poor wretched people, we will count them, does seem to be going too far. If it would be possible to make English Government farcical, the sequence of events on this night is going a long way to do it. I am strongly in favour of collecting vital statistics. They are of enormous importance to the very foundation of all sanitary legislation and other things, but to pass a Bill such as we have passed to-day and then say that all we can do for the Irish is to make a careful enumeration of them is reducing legislation to a laughing stock.

I hope the Government will see, in view of what the hon. Member opposite has said, that it will be wiser not to proceed with the Second Reading of this Bill. Speaking quite seriously, is there a single hon. Member in this House who imagines that the Census will be taken in Ireland in 1921? Of course it will not, because Ireland is in a state of rebellion, and nobody will give any particulars; and if nobody gives any particulars, how are you going to get them? If the hon. Member for Montrose has read the Bill, he will see that there are penalties for not giving information. How are you going to enforce those penalties? You cannot possibly do it. If the population refuse this information the Government will be put in the ridiculous position of using these special courts-martial, which are to supersede the ordinary courts, for proceeding against people for giving inaccurate information, or for refusing to give any information at all. You will get no information. This is just the sort of thing that the Irish population will, in the present circumstances—and small blame to them—delight in making ridiculous. The thing will be a complete farce. You cannot, out of a sense of humour, bring a man before a court-martial of English officers for refusing to say how many people lodged in his house on the night of the Census. Therefore it is a bad form of joke, and it would be far more sensible if the Government recognised the real state of affairs and said, "We did in better circumstances intend to take a Census in Ireland, but in view of what has happened it will be better to postpone it."

I desire to join in the appeal which has been made to the Attorney-General to take this Bill back and reconsider the position. The Prime Minister has stated repeatedly that he intends in the Autumn Session to place on the Statute-book the Government of Ireland Bill. If that be so, why not leave it to the new Government of Ireland to decide whether they will have the Census, and in what form? Why should we spend thousands in attempting to take it and, what is worse, manufacturing criminals, because that is what it will amount to in the present temper of Ireland? It is a waste of our money and our time, and all that we are doing is to aggravate the people of Ireland more than we have aggravated them to-day. I do appeal to the Attorney-General not to press this Bill, but to consult with the Government to see whether it would not be advisable to defer action until the new Government of Ireland Bill is on the Statute-book.

May I appeal to the Government to proceed with this Bill to-night, mainly having regard to the lamentable humbug of hon. Members on this side of the table who rise in their places to oppose it? They have occupied the whole of the day in refusing the Government powers to control the situation in Ireland, and now they get up at this early hour of the morning in order to repeat the hostility which they showed yesterday to the other Bill. I do hope the Government will present a resolute face to this form of obstruction and opposition, which is actuated by a desire to make party capital for a cause which, I fear, is lost altogether, which I know is lost altogether in this country, and which will only be damned by this sort of irresponsible attitude that they are taking up. After all, the Census Bill is on all fours with that which is going to be put into operation in this country. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] Practically on all fours. There is no genuine reason against it, and if we are going to be kept here till all hours in the morning for weeks and months at the bidding of an irresponsible Opposition—the responsible leaders of which carefully absent themselves from the House when these tactics are adopted—then we shall never get through at all. I trust the Attorney-General will get the Bill to-night.

Are we not going to have any reply?

Question put, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

The House divided: Ayes, 93; Noes, 9.

Division No. 310.]

AYES.

[12.52 a.m.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C.

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

Kidd, James

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Farquharson, Major A. C.

Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S.

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

Atkey, A. R.

Forrest, Walter

Lindsay, William Arthur

Austin, Sir Herbert

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Lort-Williams, J.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Lynn, R. J.

Barlow, Sir Montague

Gange, E. Stanley

Mitchell, William Lane

Barnett, Major R. W.

Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C.

Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

Barnston, Major Harry

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Borwick, Major G. O.

Goff, Sir R. Park

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Green, Albert (Derby)

Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh)

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Murray, Major William (Dumfries)

Breese, Major Charles E.

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Neal, Arthur

Britton, G. B.

Greig, Colonel James William

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Hallwood, Augustine

Parker, James

Brown, Captain D. C.

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Bruton, Sir James

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Pease, Rt. Hon Herbert Pike

Casey, T. W.

Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

Pollock, Sir Ernest M

Chadwick, Sir Robert

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Prescott, Major W. H.

Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Pulley, Charles Thornton

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Rankin, Captain James S.

Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid)

Johnson, Sir Stanley

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Johnstone, Joseph

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Edgar, Clifford B.

Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Edge, Captain William

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Royden, Sir Thomas

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Tryon, Major George Clement

Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Vickers, Douglas

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Wallace, J

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Sturrock, J. Leng

Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley

Sugden, W. H.

Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

Ward.

Sutherland, Sir William

NOES.

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Harbison, Thomas James S.

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Lawson, John J.

Devlin, Joseph

Sexton, James

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy and Mr. Kiley.

Bill read a Second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House for to-morrow.—[ Mr. Denis Henry. ]

Census [Expenses]

Considered in Committee.

[Sir E. CORNWALL in the Chair.]

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to make provision for the taking from time to time of a Census for Great Britain, or any area therein, and for otherwise obtaining statistical information with respect to the population of Great Britain, it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of any expenses incurred with the sanction of the Treasury by the Minister of Health or the Registrar-General, in connection with the taking of a Census (other than a Census taken on the application of a local authority), or otherwise in connection with the exercise of his powers or the performance of his duties under such Act."—[ Dr. Addison. ]

I do not desire to detain hon. Members, although if hon. Members think that the Debate is going on too long, why do not they Closure the Debate? They have power to do so.

What I rose to do was simply to draw attention to the continued practice of the Government of taking these money resolutions in all their stages in the small hours of the morning. This is a small matter to some of the hon. Members who are present to-night. I would point out that the Telegraph (Money) Bill was taken immediately after the Division on the Irish Bill, and then the Pensions Increase Bill, involving £850,000 a year, with another £850,000 approximately, for the increases for the Army and Navy. I do not object to it, but what I do say is that if these enormous sums of money are going to be spent by the House of Commons that the matter should be considered at a reasonable time, and not at one o'clock in the morning. Now we come to an expenditure which involves a further £500,000, for taking a census. I suggest that it is folly for hon. Members to go on saying that they want economy and Parliamentary control over expenditure, when they sit by and make no protest against the taking of these large Votes. The hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Lane-Mitchell) appears to disapprove of what I am saying. But this is a serious protest. The Standing Orders have been altered recently to permit the Government to take the Report Stags after 11 o'clock, but it is an abuse of the House to take the Committee stage after 11 o'clock. But I do not desire to detain hon. Members further.

I am not going to talk about economy. What is the good? If we save money in England, we spend it in Ireland. If you save money in this country, you require it to keep up the Army of Occupation in Ireland. What I have to say in regard to this discussion is that I really do not know what Parliamen is coming to. I mean that, we have, night after night, a number of political hacks gathering here at all hours of the morning at these all-night sittings, for the purpose of enabling a distracted Government to carry through and pass these Estimates, entailing large sums of public expenditure without discussion of any sort or kind. We saw to-day that the abrogation of the people's liberties was to be determined in two days' discussion of four or five hours one day and four or five hours the next. Millions of money are passed here without discussion every night after 12 o'clock, with no responsible Minister on the Government Benches. There is no explanation. Even the army of Under-Secretaries, con- sisting of 100 men, not all of them of a very high order, necessarily limited in their knowledge, most of them hangers-on of the Government, go home to bed and leave public-spirited citizens like my hon. and gallant Friend, Captain W. Benn, and myself to come here to discuss this immense and ever-increasing expenditure. How can we expect Ministers to pay any attention to the opinion of Parliament? They know that, no matter what they propose, they can rally their forces and vote down in the Lobbies every one who makes a protest. All these Under-Secretaries who have no other intelligent occupation in life except to support the Government, why are they not here? Why should we make such large demands on the energy and rhetorical powers of the Minister of Health, who is burdened with the responsibility of creating houses that are not created, of developing health, about which we have heard nothing. The same applies to other Ministers, like the Scotch Ministers. The idea of asking the Secretary for Scotland, who yesterday had to pass through the horrible experience of discussing the Scotch Estimates, to come and sit here all night to keep the Government in power. I quite understand his burning interest in the maintenance of the Government, because the Government is not popular in Scotland, and if we had an election there would be very few supporters of the Government returned.

Is there any hon. Member here who would say that the Government was not unpopular, unless it was a Member for Scotland at one o'clock in the morning? Therefore, I say, that to occupy the time of the House—[ Interruption ]. I am glad, for the first time in my life, to be cheered by the House of Commons. I am glad, at least, that the House of Commons recognises true wisdom. I think that they only recognise true wisdom at 10 minutes past one o'clock in the morning, when there is nobody in the public galleries. I am not addressing the public galleries; I am addressing the House of Commons at 10 minutes past one o'clock, and that assembly is much more unintelligent than addressing the public galleries at 10 minutes past 4 o'clock. Therefore, I support my hon. and gallant Friend (Captain W. Benn). [ Interruption ]. I would like Ministers to say what they have to say on their feet.

I am quite willing to listen to an intelligent speech from anybody, and perhaps the person who interrupted me would make a speech, and then we should have a justification for this expenditure.

This man has not been long in politics. Can you imagine any hon. Member asking the House of Commons to come to business at 10 past one o'clock in the morning on a Census Bill, which has no intelligent object except to spend £500,000? The hon. Member is not a business man, and therefore he wants to come to business. That is what happens when business men come into the House of Commons. I do not want to say any more, but there is important business to be discharged here, and if hon. Members are anxious to discuss this matter we will discuss it. In the meantime I am glad to say that, having come in here by accident, to see if there was the least vestige of freedom in the House of Commons——

I think the hon. Member is discussing with a great deal of freedom. His remarks are somewhat irrelevant.

All right, Sir. I suffer from this intellectual misapprehension, that I never can be relevant unless I am told to be relevant. That is, perhaps, a national characteristic. I have never been in one of these all-night sittings except to say that I am sorry that we will not have a few more of them. I would like to come again. I hope the spirits of the House will not droop more. I think they will. I trust that Members will drop in here accidentally at ten minutes past one in the morning, and they will be able to go to their constituents and tell them in glowing language about the devotion to duty which is displayed by Members of the House of Commons in sitting up to one o'clock in the morning to vote £500,000 for a census. I do not know what this census is for. I expect it is to know how many men you can conscript to support the war in Poland and Ireland. I believe these are the two chief functions of the Government in future. It is a very bad prospect, and I hope you will get a census and the £500,000 to pay for it.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved,

That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to make provision for the taking from time to time of a Census for Great Britain, or any area therein, and for otherwise obtaining statistical information with respect to the population of Great Britain, it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of any expenses incurred with the sanction of the Treasury by the Minister of Health or the Registrar-General, in connection with the taking of a Census (other than a Census taken on the application of a local authority), or otherwise in connection with the exercise of his powers or the performance of his duties under such Act.

Resolution to be reported to-morrow.

Census (Ireland)—[Expenses]

Committee to consider of authorising the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of any expenses incurred with the approval of the Treasury for the purposes of the Census for Ireland under any Act of the present Session for taking the Census for Ireland in the year nineteen hundred and twenty-one—( King's Recommendation signified )—To-morrow.—[ Lord Edmund Talbot. ]

Monument to Mr. Joseph Chamberlain

Resolved,

That this House will upon Wednesday next resolve itself into a Committee to consider an humble Address to His Majesty praying that His Majesty will give directions that a Monument be erected within the precincts of the Palace of Westminster to the memory of the late right honourable Joseph Chamberlain, with an inscription expressive of the high sense entertained by this House of the eminent services rendered by him to the Country and Empire in Parliament and in great Offices of State.—[ Lord Edmund Talbot. ]

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 2nd August, adjourned the House without Question put.

Adjourned at a Quarter after One o'clock.