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Commons Chamber

Volume 136: debated on Tuesday 14 December 1920

House of Commons

Tuesday, December 14, 1920

Private Business

Port of London Authority(Consolidation) Bill [Lords] (by Order).

As amended, considered.

Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the Third time.— {The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

King's Consent and Prince of Wales's Consent signified; Bill read the Third time, and passed.

Oral Answers to Questions

Russia

Eastern Siberia

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information with regard to the political situation in Eastern Siberia and the Maritime Province; what territory is in occupation by Japanese troops; whether fighting is going on between the Japanese and Russian armies; whether His Majesty is represented in these regions; if so, where, and by whom; and whether the Imperial Japanese Government has advised His Majesty's Government of their policy in these regions?

Negotiations are proceeding at Chita between the Government of the Far Eastern Republic and the Local Government at Vladivostok for the amalgamation of these two bodies. Japanese troops have been withdrawn to Vladivostok and the surrounding country. They hold the railway as far north as Nikolsk, and occupy the northern half of the island of Saghalien. I have no information of hostilities between Japanese and Russian troops. A British Consul is stationed at Vladivostok. As regards the last part of the question, I can add nothing to the reply which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member on 16th August last.

Peace Treaty With Finland

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether peace has been concluded between Russia and Finland; whether the terms of the Treaty as published in the Press are correct; whether His Majesty's Government considers the terms of this Treaty fair and reasonable; and whether any Powers are now at war with Soviet Russia?

The answers to the first and second parts of the question are in the affirmative; as regards the third part, it is not for His Majesty's Government to express an opinion; and as regards the last part, a state of war still exists technically between Soviet Russia and Poland until the ratification of the final Peace Treaty.

Is this the only country between which and Soviet Russia there is technically a state of war?

Well, I think that may be said; of course, my hon. and gallant Friend is aware of the curious situation in the Middle East, which might somewhat qualify the answer I have given.

Is there a technical state of war or peace between the Royal Rumanian Government and Soviet Russia?

I have no reason to doubt that a state of peace exists between these two countries.

Czecho-Slovakia

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the minorities in Czechoslovakia are suffering intolerable hardships; and what is being done by the Allied Powers to protect those minorities?

I cannot admit the implication made in the first part of the question. The rights of minorities in Czecho-Slovakia are fully safeguarded by the Treaty signed at St. Germain on 10th September, 1919, between the Allied and Associated Powers on the one hand, and Czecho-Slovakia on the other. The Council of the League has recently, by a Resolution, formally assumed its obligations under Article 14 of the Treaty.

Egypt (Cotton Crops)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Egyptian Government is diminishing to a considerable extent the acreage of cotton crops; if so, whether this action is attributable to Egyptian Nationalist propaganda; and whether this danger will be borne in mind in framing a new constitution for Egypt?

A measure to limit next year's cotton crop to one-third of the area of each estate has been drafted. This is in no way connected with the political situation, but is intended to relieve the financial difficulties arising out of the fall in the price of cotton.

I have no doubt His Highness the Sultan and Lord Allenby very carefully considered that question.

Were the representatives of local Egyptian opinion consulted in this matter, or was it entirely done by the British Resident?

Diplomatic Service (Brazil and Poland)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, if he can say when the appoint ments of British Ambassador to Brazil and British Minister to Poland will be announced?

The announcement of an appointment to Rio will be made in the course of the next few days. The same will, I hope, be the case in respect of Warsaw.

British Army

War Material, Chilwell Depot

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the examination and classification of the war material at Chilwell is now complete; whether much of this material now stored in the open is suffering rapid deterioration; and whether, under these circumstances, he deems it advisable to declare surplus all material which cannot be adequately protected from the weather?

In the answer which I gave to the hon. Member on 6th July last, I explained that it is impossible to accommodate everything in the existing sheds at Chilwell, and to build new ones for a temporary need would involve greater expense than any loss likely to be sustained by the articles which are for the time being uncovered. It is not proposed to declare surplus all the material stored in the open, which consists mainly of vehicles. Considerable progress has been made with the work of classification, but, as explained in the answer already referred to, it will still necessarily take a long time to complete.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a Bessoneau tent can be erected by a squad in a few hours; that there are hundreds of them in this country; and has he taken any steps whatsoever to so erect these tents, which have extraordinary storage capacity?

Schoolmastees and Schoolmistresses

asked the Secretary of State for War whether Army schoolmasters already in the service are, under the changes recently introduced, all ranked as certificated teachers, while among Army schoolmistresses similarly situated only those in Class 1 are so ranked, those in Class 2 and Class 3 being graded as uncertificated, however long their service, unless they pass the Board of Education examination for teachers; and, if so, whether he will explain the apparent differentiation in this matter between men and women?

As was explained in answer to the Noble Lord the Member for Aldershot on 4th August last, the conditions of service, pay, and pension of Army schoolmistresses have been varied and much improved, and in return they are called upon to obtain the Board of Education certificate. Long notice was given of the new condition, although the financial advantages came into force from 1st April last. Those who were serving as first class Army schoolmistresses are not required to pass any new examination, and it is under consideration whether those who have served as Class 2 and Class 3 Army schoolmistresses for a certain number of years should be treated in the same way. It is not considered that Army schoolmasters receive preferential treatment. They are necessarily treated differently, as they are enlisted soldiers. They must possess qualifications of a high standard before they can be granted commissioned rank. I would add that the training of the Army school masters prior to appointment has been subject to inspection by the Board of Education, while that of the Army school mistresses has not. It should be under stood that recognition as certificated or uncertificated teachers only arises after leaving the Army.

Troops (Persia)

asked the Secretary of State for War when the Army known as the East Persian Force advanced from Beluchistan into Persia; when it was withdrawn from Persia; what was the object of the expedition and of its continuation after the armistice with Turkey; whether a military road was built from Duzdap to Meshed; whether semi-permanent and permanent rest-houses, barracks, bath houses, and other buildings were constructed; what was the approximate total cost of the expedition, including engineer- ing works, road-making, and building; and whether any useful purpose was served by this expenditure?

Towards the end of 1917 it became evident that the Russians in Persia were an ebbing force, and would probably disappear from the country. To take their place, troops were sent from Baluchistan, and from February, 1918, the Force was known as " The Eastern Persian Cordon Field Force." The Force was administered by the Government of India. The primary object of the expedition was to prevent the infiltration of enemy agents and anti-Entente propaganda into Afghanistan and India. This object was achieved, as can be seen from the fact that Afghanistan remained neutral throughout the period of the War. Subsequent to November, 1918, the Bolshevik threat to Khorassan and the Afghan War delayed the with drawal of the Force Further delay occurred owing to climatic conditions and the scarcity of water on the lines of communication, necessitating the withdrawal being carried out by small échelons. The Force was withdrawn from Persia during the autumn of this year. The road from Duzdap to Meshed was improved so as to maintain the Force which was at Meshed. In a country of climatic extremes, such as North-east Persia and Sistan, the construction of shelters and washing places for the troops was, I understand, considered essential, but I am not in a position to furnish details, as the Force was administered and con trolled by the Government of India. For the same reason I am unable to state this total cost of the operations, but I am endeavouring to obtain this information from India.

. Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to give approximate accounts of the total operations when he makes his statement to-morrow?

Will this cost be borne by the Indian Government or by the British Government?

Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether it will be possible to state the approximate total cost to-morrow?

I doubt if it is possible to state the total cost. To go right back into the War period makes it very difficult. I should have to disentangle sums disbursed by the Indian Government on account of the Meshed force and the sums disbursed by India on account of the different forces maintained in the different theatres. I doubt very much whether that could be done very easily.

Is the right hon Gentleman aware that it has been stated in the Press that the amount is over £100,000,000: can he assure us that most of the sums have already been settled, and that we shall not be faced with a large Supplementary Estimate which may ultimately run to millions?

Of course, the figure of hundreds of millions is an absolutely absurd figure. It may be that what is meant is 100,000,000 rupees. But the actual cost I put at £2,060,000 for this South Persian force, and it may reach £3,000,000 more, according to the bills that reach me from the Government of India.

Is it not possible to give approximately what the total sum is The question of policy may arise on the discussion on the Consolidated Fund Bill?

Yes, I have given it at £2,000,000, and I am asking for approximately £3,000,000 more.

asked the Secretary of State for War what is the number of troops employed at the present time in Persia; how long they are likely to be required; and what has been the cost of the Persian expedition?

I regret it is not in the public interest to publish the in formation asked for in the first part of the hon. Member's question. As regards the retention of the force in Persia, I would refer the hen. Member to the answer which was given on the 7th instant to the hon. Member for Barnard Castle, to which I have nothing to add. As regards the last part of the question, the accounts furnished to the War Office by the Government of India do not enable me to state separately what has been the cost of the several forces in Persia from the beginning down to the present date.

Expeditionary Force Canteens

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has now considered the suggestion that the Report and recommendations of the controller and deputy-controller of the Expeditionary Force canteens, together with the balance sheet presented in October, 1920, should be published; and whether he is now prepared to assent to the publication of these documents in view of the fact that it is alleged that a credit balance of over £7,000,000 is still avail able for disposal by the authorities for the benefit of the services?

asked the Secretary of State for War what are the profits of the Expeditionary Force canteens; whether a balance sheet and Report have been received by the War Office; and when it is intended that this Report and balance sheet should be published?

I hope to be in a position to make a statement on this subject when the pressure of work in connection with the Army Supplementary Estimates is over. I will, therefore, ask the hon. and gallant Members to repeat their questions next week.

League of Nations

Ex-Enemy Territories (Mandates)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether certain ex-enemy territories have now been in the hands of Great Britain for two years without mandates for the same being settled in accordance with the Treaty of Versailles; whether any drafts of such mandates have been submitted to the Assembly of the League of Nations now sitting; and, if not, why not, seeing that the duty of defining the degree of authority, control, or adminis- tration to be exercised by the mandatory falls in the first place upon the members of the League?

As the answer to this question is long, I will, with the permission of the House, have it printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The following is the answer referred to :

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. His Majesty's Government are in no way responsible for the delays that have occurred in agreeing upon the terms of the mandates, these delays being solely due to the difficulties raised by other Powers.

As regards the last two parts of the question, the Council of the League of Nations decided on 5th August, 1920, that the duty of defining the degree of authority, control, or administration to be exercised by the mandatory does not under the Covenant in the first place fall upon the Assembly of the League of Nations. According to Clause 8 of Article 22 of the Covenant, the degree of authority, control, or administration is to be explicitly defined in each case by the Council " if not previously agreed upon by the members of the League." The Council considered that the words " members of the League " in this context were intended by the framers of the Covenant to designate the members of the League concerned, i.e., the great Powers assembled at the Peace Conference among whom the mandates were to be distributed. The text of the Covenant is thus held to provide for the intervention of the League of Nations, as regards the settling of the terms of the mandates, only through the organ of the Council of the League, and that only in case of disagreement among the Powers concerned. The Powers have, however, decided to give to the words of the Covenant a wider interpretation and to take them as implying that the Council shall act not merely in case of disagreement, but in all cases as a confirming authority. Negotiations for overcoming certain outstanding difficulties are in progress and if agreement can be reached it is hoped that the approval of the League will be given to the draft mandates before the close of the present session at Geneva.

Trade and Commerce

German Dyestuffs Indutstky

asked the Secretary of State for War whether it has been established beyond doubt that the German dyestuffs industry was the basis of the whole German chemical warfare campaign; whether it was that industry which enabled the Germans to manufacture and utilise many varieties of complex organic substances during the War; whether the Allies suffered by not having immediately available their own fully developed dye-making industries; and whether, in view of the public interest in these questions, he is yet in a position to publish the introduction to the Report of Brigadier-General Hartley's Commission?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answers given in this House to similar questions on 7th December. Mention was then made of the great assistance rendered by the German dye industry in the production of the complex organic compounds required for their chemical warfare campaign. The difficulties and delays which were encountered by the Allies when attempting to prepare these compounds owing to the lack of fully developed dye-making industries have also been referred to during the recent discussions on this subject. The question of the publication of the introduction to the report of Brigadier-General Hartley's mission is still under consideration.

Is it not a fact that the use of gases in a few years' time in war will be obsolete?

Foreign Toys

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the increase in the importation of foreign toys; that the tools required for making toys cost a considerable sum of money and that manufacturers are not prepared to risk such expenditure whilst the policy of the Government remains uncertain; and whether he will therefore give definite information as to whether the toy industry is to be safeguarded against foreign competition, with which, owing to the rates of exchange, it is now impossible to compete?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given yesterday by the President of the Board of Trade to the hon. Member for Tonbridge, a copy of which I am sending him.

Woollen Trade, Russia

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that mills in the woollen and worsted trades in Yorkshire are all working short time with the exception of two, which are engaged on prospective orders for Russia; and whether, in view of the fact that the opening of trade relations with Russia would result in further orders being secured and providing employment in this industry, he will take whatever steps he can to secure a resumption of trade relations with that country?

I am aware that a great many mills in Yorkshire are unfortunately working short time, and I have also heard it stated that certain mills are working on prospective orders for the Russian market. With regard to the latter part of the question, I cannot add anything to the replies given yesterday by the Prime Minister.

Wrought Hollow Ware

asked the President of the Board of Trade the quantities and value of enamel wrought hollow ware and galvanised wrought hollow ware imported into this country from Germany and Austria since 1st January, 1920?

The imports from Germany registered during the period 1st January to 30th November, 1920, were as follow:

Ex-Service Men

Barrack Duties, Ireland

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he would consider the employment of ex-service men in Ireland on fatigue duties in barracks in order to release soldiers for their pressing military duties?

This matter is now under discussion with the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief Irish Command, with a view to the adoption of some such system of employment as that proposed by the hon. and gallant Member.

Land Settlement, Kenya Colony

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the ex-service men who went out to Kenya Colony to settle were in any way assisted with their passages and outfits; what average rate per acre they were called on to pay for their holdings; whether any had previous experience in tropical planting; whether anybody on the spot advised them on the selection of their holdings or in respect of the unsuitability of crops for cultivation; and whether any special arrangement was made to help them in the marketing of their produce?

The answer to this question is a long one, and with my hon. Friend's permission I will have it printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The following is the answer :

The ex-service men and women who were alloted farms under the East Africa Land Settlement Scheme, and who had served with the Imperial Forces in the War, were eligible for free passages for themselves and their dependants under the scheme administered by the Oversea Settlement Committee. Special arrangements were made to secure accommodation for those who were ready to sail by the end of 1919, and these were thus enabled to reach East Africa much earlier than would otherwise have been possible, owing to the difficulty of obtaining passages at that time. No assistance was given towards the purchase of outfit.

It is difficult to give an average of the rates per acre charged for the farms, as these varied within wide limits according to the nature and situation of the land. A large number of the farms were priced at between 5 and 10 rupees per acre. As I informed my hon. Friend on the 18th of November, these prices have now been reduced by one-third, and individual farms are being revalued. I might mention that no purchase price is payable for the first two years after allotment, and that payments thereafter may be spread over a period not exceeding 30 years. Many of the applicants who received farms had previous experience of tropical farming in East Africa and elsewhere; but the possession of such experience was not a necessary condition of admission to the scheme, though it was considered desirable in the case of applicants for the smaller farms on which no purchase price was charged.

Applicants in this country made their selection before going to East Africa (subject to the possibility of exchange) and the gentleman with experience of conditions in Kenya who composed the London Selection Board gave applicants general information regarding the country, and, as far as possible, regarding the suitability of different districts for different kinds of farming; but they were necessarily unable to undertake the responsibility of giving advice in the selection of farms of which, in almost every case, they had no personal knowledge. While all available information was placed at the disposal of applicants, it was necessary for them to rely, in selecting their farms, upon the particulars given in the official catalogue prepared by the Land Office in Kenya, together with any reports furnished by the representatives of local firms whom many applicants employed to assist them. The catalogue generally contained an indication of the class of farming for which each farm was believed to be suitable.

I have no information to show how far the local agricultural department were able to assist the ex-service settlers with advice as to their operations or selection of crops, but naturally that would be a part of their duties. I am not aware that any arrangements, apart from what may have been done by the settlers themselves acting in co-operation, have been made for assisting the settlers in the marketing of their produce.

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

War Gratuity

asked the Secretary of State for War why an officer of the Special Reserve who has been employed in a civil capacity during the War in Mesopotamia is ineligible for a war gratuity, seeing that officers of the Indian Army Reserve serving in a similar capacity have been granted that gratuity, considering that no less than 29 officers employed in the civil administration of Mesopotamia have lost their time while so employed; and for what reason has a differentiation been made between officers of the Indian Army Reserve, the Indian Army, and the British service?

British service officers who serve in a civil capacity are not eligible for an Army gratuity in respect of such service.

Administration (Departmental Committee)

asked the Minister of Pensions whether only one woman is included in the Departmental Committee of Inquiry into pensions administration which has recently been appointed; and whether, in view of the fact that a very large proportion of the recipients of pensions, whether as widows or as the wives and mothers of disabled men, are women, and as, moreover, a large proportion of those who have been engaged in administrative work in connection with pensions have been women, he can see his way to increasing the representation of women on the Committee in question?

of PENSIONS (Mr. Macpherson): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As indicated in the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member for Fylde (Colonel Ashley) on the 9th December, I am not prepared to add any further Members to the Committee.

As this is a very important question as affecting women, may I ask if the right hon. Gentleman will really consider the question of giving them an equal chance on this important Committee, which deals so largely with women and children, and will not wait until the eve of an election to put women in their right place?

Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I ask if he does not think that women already have much more than their share in the Department of the Ministry of Pensions?

I can only refer the hon. Members to the answer which I gave on the 9th December. The Committee is already very large, and it has a most efficient woman member at the present time, while women are indirectly represented by the representative of the Association of War Pensions Committees.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that one direct woman representative is sufficient?

Medical Boards (Belfast)

asked the Minister of Pensions whether it is the intention to transfer the medical boards from the Grand Central Hotel, Belfast, to the new premises purchased by the Commissioners of Public Works, which is in the centre of the city; and, if not, whether it is the intention to procure other premises suitable in the centre of the city seeing that suitable premises are available?

I presume that my hon. Friend refers to the premises in Amelia Street, which have been purchased by the Commissioners of Public Works to house the Ulster Regional Headquarters of the Ministry of Pensions. Those premises are not sufficiently large to accommodate also the Ulster Medical Area Boards, and the Commissioners of Public Works are endeavouring to procure fresh accommodation for them. As indicated in the reply given to the hon. Member for the Falls Division of Belfast on the 23rd November, the Commissioners do not propose to purchase a building for this purpose in view of the heavy expenditure which would be involved and the decrease in the work of medical boards which may be expected in the future. If no suitable existing premises can be secured on short lease, it may be preferable, in the interests of economy, to erect temporary hutting.

Mental Cases

asked the Minister of Pensions whether it is still the practice of his Department to compel nerve- strained uncertifiable ex-service men to enter as in-patients institutions for border-line mental cases under threat of the loss, in some cases, of half their allowance should they refuse?

Article 4 of the Royal Warrant provides that half the pension and allowances awarded to any disabled man shall be subject to his acceptance of such treatment as may be found necessary in his interests. This power is rarely put into operation, and never until the man has been given an opportunity of stating his objections and these have been fully considered. I am satisfied that this power is necessary, and that, in practice, it is exercised with great discretion and solely for the good of the pensioner.

West Yorkshire Regiment (Pte. R. Stobbart)

asked the Minister of Pensions whether his attention has been called to the case of the late Pte. Roger Stobbart, No. 57873, West Yorkshire Regiment, about which the hon. Member for Consett wrote to him on the 18th October and again on the 3rd December; whether he can say what is the cause of the long delay in dealing with this case; whether the question of an immediate increase of pension to the aunt of this soldier, who brought him up, has been decided; and, if so, with what result?

As soon as my hon. Friend wrote to me I instituted local inquiries to ascertain whether it was possible to increase the pension granted to Mrs. Stobbart. This investigation took some time, and I regret to find that no higher award can be made. It has, how ever, been arranged that pension shall issue at once, subject to a small deduction to effect recovery of the gratuity previously granted, and now superseded by the award of pension.

Motor Cars (War Office)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a Limousine Vauxhall car, No. LP. 5069, driven by an Army corporal in uniform, was being employed by a lady and a gentleman for the purpose of visiting a toy shop in Regent Street on Saturday, 4th December; whether this car is the property of the Government; if so, what are the regulations concerning the use of Government cars; and, if not, why the car in question was being driven by a corporal?

Yes, Sir. This Government car was conveying an officer and his private secretary from an out lying branch of the War Office to attend an official conference in the main building in Whitehall. The normal route of the car was by way of Regent Street, where the officer stopped at a shop for a few minutes to pick up a parcel. The regulations prescribe that Government cars shall only be available for services of an urgent and important character, and shall only be supplied on receipt of a requisition signed by a senior officer.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether this officer was in uniform or not, and where he was travel ling from?

I could not possibly say, without notice, whether a particular officer on a particular occasion was in uniform or not. I have already stated where he was from.

May I ask whether the practice which some time ago obtained in regard to the use of motor cars for officials" at the War Office has now been discontinued? Are they only used on special occasions, and I presume that this is one of those occasions?

That is the case. A very strict rule is now in force, and if any infractions of the rule take place the instances are brought to the notice of the persons concerned and they are surcharged for the use of the vehicle on any occasion which is not covered by the Regulation.

What is the junior rank in the service which has authority to requisition a car?

I do not like to answer that question without notice. It is only in cases of special importance that officers have the authority to do it.

The great bulk of these cars are quite small. There are altogether 11 Rolls-Royce cars. Four of them are in Ireland and three are in other Commands. Two are in reserve. All of them have been most strictly and care fully watched, and it is only because these cars are far more reliable for cases of emergency and long-distance journeys that they are retained.

Royal Air Force

Aero Engines

asked the Secretary of State for Air how many new aero engines of each different type have been destroyed since the Armistice and at what prices the same have been and are being offered for sale?

The answer to the first part of the question is, that no new British or Allied machines have been intentionally destroyed under orders from the Air Ministry. The second part of the question does not, therefore, arise.

Does the right hon. Gentleman's reply refer to all aero engines after the removal of their component parts?

On what information does he base that calculation? Is he not aware that hundreds of new machines have been taken out of the various aerodromes, the engines removed, and the machines burned since the Armistice? Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to obtain more accurate information?

I have every reason to believe that my answer referring to engines is correct. I am informed that no new British or Allied engines have been destroyed under the orders of the Air Ministry. It is quite true that a number of aeroplanes accumulated during the latter part of the War have been reduced to their component parts, and I expect that we should have been very much complained of if great expense had been incurred on a large staff in keeping these machines in order.

Is the right hon. Gentle man aware that the Government have only recently accepted the delivery of machines identical to those which have been destroyed?

Yes. That is all part of the general settlement of contracts arrived at when the War came to a close. A settlement had to be made at that time, including the dispersal of those artificially brought into the aeroplane industry.

Are we to understand that the Government policy is to accept delivery of materials and then burn them in order to keep men employed

That would be about as extravagant a policy as the ingenuity of any hon. Member could suggest.

Does the right hon. Gentleman refer to engines or the auxiliary parts of engines?

As far as I know that is so, but if my hon. Friend has something in his mind which is not covered by my original answer and he will let me know what it is I will enquire.

asked the Secretary of State for Air how many aero engines of each different type the Government have taken delivery of since the Armistice and what prices have been paid for the same?

A large number of aero engines were, of course, on order at the date of the Armistice. It was necessary to take delivery of 14,800 of these as the contracts could not be broken. These engines were of 28 different types and varied greatly in price. My hon. Friend will find that I shall refer to the finance of this matter when dealing with the Supplementary Air Estimate this afternoon.

Insurance Policies

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in the drafting of the new measure for the protection of insurance policyholders, he is in consultation with some witnesses who gave evidence of the present system at the recent inquiry; and whether, in this connection, he will consult Mr. Mashford?

In view of the full Report by Lord Parmoor's Committee, I doubt whether it is necessary to consult again witnesses who gave evidence before them, but the hon. and gallant Member's suggestion will be borne in mind.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that fresh facts have recently arisen with regard to these insurance companies, and that Mr. Mashford is an expert on these questions, who has volunteered to give further evidence?

Aliens, Naturalisation

asked the Home Secretary if he will state what has been the average monthly number of certificates of naturalisation granted or refused to friendly aliens and former enemy aliens respectively, during the past 12 months; whether, in view of the 13,000 outstanding applications for certificates now awaiting his attention, he proposes to take any, and what steps to deal with applications as and when received with reasonable expedition; and whether he will be prepared to consider cases of delay entailing exceptional hardship on their merits, imposing, if need be, an additional fee corresponding to the expedition employed?

The average monthly numbers of certificates of naturalisation granted to friendly aliens and former enemy aliens during the twelve months ending the 30th November, 1920, were 175 and 21 respectively. Out standing applications are being dealt with as rapidly as is possible with the staff available. I am and shall be pre pared to consider the claims of any applicant for early attention on merits, but it would obviously be unfair to single out particular cases for exceptional treatment unless they present some special feature of importance, and I cannot accept the hon. Member's suggestion at the end of this question.

Is any distinction made between applications from former enemies and those that come, for instance, from Jugo-Slavs and Czecho-Slovaks?

Very few former enemy aliens are available for naturalisation at all; if they are available, then cases are dealt with in their turn.

We are considering the question of re-arranging the system, in order to give preference to certain classes. The whole trouble arises from the short ness of staff.

Will the right hon. Gentle man consider refusing all such applications from former enemy aliens?

Does the right hon. Gentleman consider the case of former enemy aliens on their merits?

Former enemy aliens who are available for naturalisation are a very small class, and their applications are treated like any other.

I cannot say how many, but at least 4,000 cannot be, as they were sent away.

Transport

Motor Cars, Police Controls

asked the Home Secretary how many-controls in the Metropolitan Police area were instituted for the detection of infringement of the speed limit between a.m. on the 11th December and p.m. on the 13th December, 1920; how many police officers were employed and with what success; how many controls were instituted for the detection of dangerous driving, how many officers were employed, and with what results during the same period; and how many cases of dangerous driving were reported by the police on ordinary or point duty during the same period?

No controls were operated during the period a.m. 11th December to p.m. 13th December to detect infringements of the speed limit in the Metropolitan Police district. Two controls were operated to detect cases of infringement of the Motor Car Act, etc., five officers being employed, but no cases of dangerous driving were among those reported for prosecution. One case of dangerous driving was reported by police on ordinary duties.

Sidecar Taxicabs

asked the Home Secretary whether he can indicate what are the serious objections to motor-cycle sidecar taxicabs for use in London; to what Committee questions relating to them have been referred; and when he expects to get the Report of the Committee?

While this question is under the consideration of the Committee I do not think it is desirable for me to enter into a discussion of its merits. The Committee is that on the taxation and regulation of road vehicles; it is appointed by the Minister of Transport, and the concluding part of the question should be addressed to him.

Russians in Great Britain

asked the Home Secretary what is the number of Russians who have entered this country since 1st January last and the number who have left the country during the same period?

During the period from the 1st January to the 30th December, 1920, 10,318 Russians entered and 10,862 left the United Kingdom.

Trafalgar Square (Public Meetings)

asked the Home Secretary whether, when considering applications for the holding of public meetings in Trafalgar Square, he will obtain an undertaking in writing from the organisers or promoters that no speeches of a seditious or revolutionary character will be delivered from the plinth of the monument erected by the nation as a memorial to Nelson?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to him on the 30th November. There is no power under the Regulations to require any such undertaking. If the conditions prescribed in the Regulations are fulfilled, the meeting must be allowed to be held.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Trafalgar Square was laid out at the public expense as a national memorial enclosure; is he also aware that by the Trafalgar Square Act, 1844, it is provided that the care, control, management, and regulation of the Square, and the ornamental and other works therein—[HON. MEMBERS; " Speech."] No, it is not a speech, it is a quotation.

On a point of Order. I have given the Home Secretary frequent notice on this point. He tells me he has no power. I am quoting to him, and asking him if he is aware of a Statute under which, I think, he has power. It is a matter of very great importance.

The more important it is, the more necessary is it to give notice. If the hon. Member will embody in his question a reference to the Statute he will call the attention of the Home Secretary to it. The right hon. Gentle man cannot, as I have said before, be expected to carry in his head the terms of all the Statutes affecting his Department.

I bow to your ruling, but I will venture to ask another question. Does the right hon. Gentle man know that under the Regulations which he has referred to, written notice has to be given of any meeting specifying its object, and that, further, under that Regulation, a copy of which I hold in my hand, it is provided that no speeches shall be delivered except from a place authorised by the Commissioner of Works? Will he see that Nelson's Column, a national memorial to Nelson, is not used as a place within the meaning of this section for the delivery of seditious and revolutionary speeches?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the speeches made will not hurt Nelson at all?

Will the right hon. Gentleman apply the rule referred to by the hon. Gentleman to speeches by Kensington-cum-Orange appeals to rebellion against the decrees of this House?

Will the right hon. Gentleman exercise the power he has under the Regulation?

Can the right hon. Gentleman state whether if such an undertaking be asked for it would extend to the prohibition of provocative Coalition speeches as well?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at a recent meeting the red flag was hoisted on the plinth, and is that not a direct incitement to trouble; is it not an insult to everybody who honours Nelson's memory?

Will a man wearing a red waistcoat be prohibited from speaking at these meetings?

United States Stores, Liverpool

asked the Prime Minister whether immediate steps will be taken to express to the Government of the United States the regret of His Majesty's Government that valuable stores belonging to subjects of the United States have been destroyed at Liverpool by the Irish murder gangs; and whether he will give an undertaking that every possible effort will be made to protect the property of American citizens in this country from further outrages?

I hardly think it necessary to give any formal assurances such as are suggested in the question. Every possible effort is being made to protect property, whether British or foreign, from further attacks.

Was any American property destroyed in Cork last Saturday and Sunday?

Income Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the Scottish railway companies have issued Income Tax forms to the salaried members of their staffs, with a request that they be filled up and returned to them to enable them to assess the amount of tax due, and stating that the tax must be paid at a certain date, notwithstanding that forms have already been filled up and sent to Income Tax offices; and if he will say whether these railway companies are acting on instructions from his Department in issuing the forms?

I understand that, with a view to minimising the inconvenience to which their salaried officials might be subjected if called upon to pay their Income Tax in one sum, certain railway companies are prepared to arrange that a proportion of the tax due shall be deducted from each fortnightly payment of salary, and in order to give effect to this arrangement they have invited their employés to furnish such information as will ensure, as far as possible, that the amount so deducted shall not be in excess of the taxpayer's liability. This purely domestic arrangement—to which the Inland Revenue Department is not a party—in no way affects the right of a taxpayer to have his liability dealt with in accordance with the provisions of the Income Tax Acts.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether a widower who is entitled to relief from Income Tax under Section 18 of the Finance Act, 1920, is allowed a deduction of £90 in the cases where he proves it is necessary to employ a housekeeper to take charge of his children?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the provisions of Section 19 of the Finance Act, 1920, from which he will see that the deduction from assessable income allowed to a widower in respect of a housekeeper to take charge of his children is £45. Section 18, to which my hon. Friend refers, deals with the personal allowance to the married couple or to the individual, and has no relevance in the present connection.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say if that allowance applies to a daughter who is kept at home to look after her younger brothers and sisters?

Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)

asked the Home Secretary when a complete set of the Orders made by the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) will be placed in the Library and the Vote Office for the information of Members?

Following the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. R. Richardson) on the 25th November, the preparation of specimen sets of the Orders of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), as promised, was put in hand, and they will be placed in the Library without delay.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he promised on the 22nd of last month that copies of the material Orders and Regulations should be placed in the Library on the following day, namely, the 23rd November; and will he inquire what is the cause of the delay?

I have inquired as to the cause of the delay. It was unavoidable, and we are doing our best.

Shall we have these Orders so that we may be able to read them before we adjourn at Christmas, it being now three weeks since the promise was made?

May I ask the Leader of the House if he is aware that the Prime Minister said that he would welcome an opportunity of debating the whole question of liquor control, and of stating the Government's case, and whether he can give us such an opportunity before we adjourn?

I think we have plenty to do to which we are absolutely committed, but there is nothing to prevent any hon. Member from raising the question on the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill.

Will the Prime Minister or the Leader of the House take an opportunity, on the Appropriation Bill, of making a statement of the policy of the Government in connection with liquor control?

We have stated quite clearly more than once what our present position with regard to it is.

Will the Home Secretary say whether the documents placed in the Vote Office will be all the existing Rules, Orders and Regulations of the Liquor Control Board?

That would mean a great expense in printing. They will be placed in the Library.

If we want to buy them, and take them away with us for reference, should they not be placed in the Vote Office?

Street Trading

asked the Home Secretary if a Departmental or other Committee is going to inquire into the question of street trading; and, if so, if evidence will, if submitted, be received from those directly interested in street trading?

I have the question of the appointment of Such a Committee under consideration. If it is appointed, it would take evidence from those interested in street trading.

Housing

Construction, Scotland

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he will consider the advisability of using material other than bricks to build houses in remote parts of Scotland where few, if any, bricks are manufactured, and where building stone abounds, which will have the effect of opening up many quarries, and thus give employment to a large number of persons; and whether a saving would be effected by so doing, in view of the fact that the recent increase in railway charges has increased the price of bricks considerably?

The Scottish Board of Health are prepared to consider favourably any proposals submitted to them by local authorities for the construction of houses in material other than brick, provided that the cost would not be unduly increased. So far as the Board's experience goes, a saving would rarely be effected by building in stone except in the Northern Counties. In these counties 75 per cent, of the houses for which tenders have been approved are being built in stone and 9 per cent, in concrete.

asked the Secretary for Scotland if he has obtained the returns from local authorities in terms of Section 23 of the Housing and Town Planning (Scotland) Act, 1919, relating to houses completed up to 30th September; and, if so, when will the summary be published?

The returns referred to have been received by the Scottish Board of Health. They are now being tabulated, and the Board hope to issue a summary of them at an early date.

Scotland

Local Option

asked the Secretary for Scotland the number of electors entitled to vote in the districts in which polls were held under the Scottish Temperance Act of 1913, the Return to show the number who voted for no change, limitation, and no licence, and the cost of the elections to the public?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on the 7th instant to a question on this subject by my hon. Friend the Member for Montrose Burghs (Mr. Sturrock). I shall consider the desirability of including in the proposed Return the number of the electorate in each area.

Land Settlement

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the Committee appointed to consider the question of land settlement has reported to the Cabinet; whether the Government propose to modify their original policy as a result of that Report; and whether the instructions to Small Holding Commissioners suspending the prosecution, without special permission, of land settlement schemes in Scotland will now be withdrawn?

The Committee has now reported. Until the Report has been considered by the Cabinet, I am not in a position to make any statement as to future policy, but I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that the urgency of the matter is fully recognised.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the extreme unrest which prevails in Scotland as the result of the delay and holding up of this land policy?

I am well aware of it, and it is because I am aware of it that I have said that the urgency of the matter is fully recognised.

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether any farm or farms in North Uist have been recently raided by ex-service men and others; whether he is aware that great dissatisfaction exists in North and South Uist owing to the slow progress made in settling applicants upon the land; that this delay has given rise to the belief in the Highlands and Islands that no progress is made until the law is broken; and whether he will take steps to speed up land settlement in these parts so that an otherwise law-abiding people may not be tempted to take the law into their own hands?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I am aware that in North and South Uist, as in other places, there is a clamant demand for settlement upon the land, but I cannot too strongly deprecate the unlawful action taken by these men. It must seriously prejudice negotiations which had already been authorised for the development of schemes of land settlement in Uist.

May I ask if it is not a fact that practically speaking it is only where possession is thus taken of the land that the Board of Agriculture take action in the island?

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of giving the Board of Agriculture a free hand in the matter of these schemes?

May I ask, further, whether it is not a fact that the land owner in this particular case is prepared to sell, and that the men who have applied for the land, and have, unfortunately, now raided it—as to which I hold the same opinion as the right hon. Gentleman—have equipment and stock, and do not need training, and are, therefore, ready to go on the land?

I am afraid I cannot fully answer that question without notice, but, speaking from recollection, my recollection is that the proprietor of this land is not willing to sell. If my hon. Friend will put down a question on the point I will answer it.

Steamer Service, Outer Hebrides

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that the steamer service to Harris and other portions of the Outer Hebrides has been completely disorganised during the past four weeks owing to the unsuitability of the boat recently placed upon the route; whether the boat now employed is a river tug which can only accommodate 12 deck passengers and cannot carry cargo or livestock; and what steps he proposes to take in order to obviate the inconvenience and hardships arising from the glaring defects of this service, and so ensure reasonable facilities for transport of the necessaries of life to these islands during the winter and for carrying on legitimate trade?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. The steamer to Harris was transferred on the 12th November from the Outer Islands route to the Stornoway route in order to replace a larger boat, which had been damaged in a collision with Kyle Pier in rough weather. A smaller vessel, which was sent from Glasgow to replace her, was delayed by stormy weather, and two trips to Harris had to be cancelled. I much regret the inconvenience, but it seems to have been due to abnormal weather conditions, and I have no reason to suppose that the contractors for the service have failed to do their best in the circumstances.

May I ask whether these conditions, which the right hon. Gentleman describes as abnormal, are not really the normal conditions of winter in these parts, and whether he does not think that this boat is absolutely unfit for such a stormy passage during winter, seeing that so many passengers and livestock have to be carried?

I hope that the inconvenience is only temporary, and will be put an end to before very long.

Post Office

Temporary Employes

asked the Postmaster- General whether men other than ex- service men are being employed as temporary postmen in Belfast for the Christmas holidays; and whether steps will be taken to see that preference be given to ex-service men?

asked the Postmaster-General whether he will confine the additions to his staff for the Christmas traffic to ex-service men?

The recruitment of temporary staff to meet Christmas pressure in the Post Office is made through the Employment Exchanges, who have instructions to give preference to ex-service men. I understand that these instructions are being fully carried out at Belfast.

As this is a most important question, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has made specific inquiries, and whether, as a matter of fact, no men are being taken on except ex-service men?

I was given to understand so this morning, but I will inquire further and make quite sure.

asked the Postmaster- General whether, in replacing any temporary workers by ex-service men, he will consider the claims for special consideration of those temporary employés who offered themselves for military service but who were rejected on medical grounds, and will accordingly rank them for equal treatment with those whose cases he may consider with a view to substitution?

I regret that 1 am unable to give special consideration, in replacing temporary workers, to men other than those who actually served with the Forces.

Part-Time Postmen

asked the Post master-General if he is aware that auxiliary postmen and part-time postmen must have some other employment, other wise they are dismissed from the service; and if he will take action in the matter?

Men employed on part-time postmen's duties are expected to have outside employment or some other means of livelihood, as, for example, a pension. It is not, however, the practice to dismiss a man who loses his outside employment.

Ministry of Food

asked the Minister of Food whether Nos. 92, 94, 96, 98, and 100, Cromwell Road have recently been taken over by the Ministry of Food; whether these houses are being refurnished; what is the purpose of their occupation; what is their rental value; and at what date will they be vacated by the Ministry?

The premises in question have been occupied by Ministry of Food staffs for over two years, and a concentration has recently taken place with a view to the release of requisitioned business premises in the Haymarket. The only refurnishing has been such as is incidental to the removal. The total compensation payable in respect of Nos. 94-100, Cromwell Road is £808 per annum, but no claim has been received in respect of No. 92. The premises are required in connection with the liquidation of the Ministry of Food and the Royal Commission on Wheat Supplies, and I and unable to state when they will be vacated.

What purpose will these premises be used for when the Ministry of Food is at an end?

Are we to understand that now a new body of Civil Servants is to be created and put in these premises in order to produce the liquidation of the old Ministry?

Not at all. In view of the reduction of the staff, I have been able to effect an economy by taking part of the staff from very expensive premises in the Haymarket to much less expensive premises in Cromwell Road. When they have finished there they will be absolutely vacated.

Are we to understand the Ministry of Food is to be reduced to such an extent that its officials will only occupy five houses in the Cromwell Road now?

Food Supplies

Wheat

asked the Minister of Food whether millers who have purchased wheat of fair milling quality at a price less than that which they were instructed to pay by him, namely, 95s. per quarter of 504 lbs., will be called upon to make the price paid up to that figure?

As stated in the reply given to the hon. Member on Thursday last, millers are not instructed, but are authorised, to pay for home-grown wheat purchased on rail at producer's station an average price not exceeding 95s. per 504 lbs. f.o.r. and an average of 96s. per 504 lbs. in respect of wheat delivered by road into the mill. Every inducement is offered to millers to use the largest possible proportion of home-grown wheat in their grist. It should, however, be remembered that the miller is under no obligation to purchase grain which he does not require for his immediate needs. I understand that much of the home-grown wheat which has been offered for sale by farmers recently has either been of inferior quality or in doubtful condition, with the result that the full price payable for sound milling wheat has not been realised.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has not answered the question, but has merely repeated an answer given before, and will he discontinue the dumping, or sale below cost of delivery, of foreign wheat in this country to the detriment of the home producer?

If the hon. Member attaches any importance to the somewhat surprising allegation contained in that Supplementary, I shall be glad if he will give notice.

asked the Minister of Food whether his Department is responsible for Circular No. 277, dated 1st December, 1920, of the Flour Mills Control Committee compelling millers to take 76 per cent, extraction out of all parcels of British wheat; whether he is aware that it is practically an impossible task and that millers are refusing to buy wheat in the Scottish markets; and will he have the circular cancelled forthwith and the original method reinstated?

The instruction referred to was issued by my Department in order to encourage the purchase of home-grown wheat. An amended instruction has now been issued which will, it is hoped, render British wheat more attractive to both port and inland millers.

Sugar

asked the Minister of Food what is the present controlled retail price of sugar; and whether he is aware that the present market price for best quality sugar is approximately 5¼d. per lb. c.i.f. London?

I am aware that certain quantities of the best quality white sugar have recently been quoted at 5¼d. per lb. c.i.f. London, which is equivalent to a price of 9'65 pence per pound to the consumer, making allowance for duty payable, costs of transport and distribution, and retailers' profits. There is no statutory controlled price for sugar, but the maximum price which at present receives the approval of the Sugar Commission is 10d. per lb. I would like to point out to the hon. Member that owing to the financial conditions and speculative move ments in the sugar market, prices fluctuate widely, and no single quotation can be taken as an index of the true market conditions.

:Will the hon. Gentleman circulate with the OFFICIAL REPORT exactly the component parts of the four-pence which is charged for handing the sugar out to the consumer?

What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by 10d. a;lb. meeting with the approval of the Ministry?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in East Yorkshire, in Hull, in particular, there is a big glut of sugar stored, but the retailers are forced to get their sugar from London?

Canadian Cattle (Embargo)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture whether he has received further representations from the Canadian Government, and informal representations from Provincial Governments in Canada, protesting against the embargo on Canadian cattle; whether the Government are contemplating any revision of legislation enforcing this embargo; and, if not, whether, seeing the irritation caused in Canada by unfounded British suspicion of diseases in Canadian herds, he will make a clear statement of the intentions of the Government and the purpose of Government policy?

In reply to the first part of the question, I must refer my hon. Friend to the reply which was given by my right hon. Friend on the 1st December to the hon. Member for Forfar, namely, that correspondence took place in January of this year between the Minister and the High Commissioner for Canada on the question of the admission of Canadian store cattle. Beyond the reference to this correspondence, and a communication from the Canadian Government in February with regard to the landing of cattle for slaughter, no further representation has been made by the Canadian Government, and no representations have been received from the Provincial Governments of Canada. With regard to the second and third parts of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the replies given on the 25th October and on the 8th December to the hon. Members for Montrose Burghs and for Brentford respectively.

Will the hon. Gentleman ask the Parliamentary Secretary how that answer is to be reconciled with the statement reported by the Minister of Agriculture at Leicester the other say with regard to this matter and is it not very desirable that it is disturbing the relations between ourselves and Canada and between the Dominion Government and the Provincial Assemblies?

Florin Currency, East Africa

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he-is aware that the establishment of the florin in Kenya, Uganda, and Tanganyika has made it impossible to obtain capital for the development of the country and has caused the withdrawal of capital already invested there; and whether he can see his way to reconsider the currency position, in view of the disastrous effect of the arbitrary fixation of the florin?

I am not aware that the establishment of the florin has made it impossible to obtain fresh capital for the development of Eastern Africa or that the present contraction of enterprise there is due mainly to the fixing of the exchange. I cannot admit that genuine investment would have been encouraged by the retention of a violently fluctuating rate of exchange, and I would remind my hon. Friend that the rupee was fixed at 2s. sterling when the Indian rupee rose to 2s. 11d early in the year, and that the present low rate for the Indian rupee cannot be regarded as permanent.

Can my hon. Friend say whether there is a severe financial and economic crisis in Kenya colony, and whether he is taking any steps to rectify that financial and economic crisis?

There is undoubtedly a crisis due to the fall in prices here, and other causes, and the Government is trying to do all it can to deal with the situation.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is considerable difficulty in raising capital for the colony?

A great deal has been raised already, but I suppose in the present difficult position much more capital is not coming in.

Imperial Preference, Crown Colonies

asked the Under -Secretay of State for the Colonies if he is yet in a position to publish the results of the inquiry made of the Crown Colonies in regard to their views on Imperial preference; and, if not, can he state the cause of the delay?

As the greater number of the West Indian Colonies concerned in the recent agreement with Canada have not yet passed or reported the legislation necessary for the purposes of the agreement, I am not in a position to add anything material to the answer which I gave to my hon. Friend on 4th November.

Ancient Monuments Commission

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he can make any further statement respecting his announcement that he was considering the appointment of a Commission to consider whether the powers of the Ancient Monuments Commission should be widened to give protection to cathedrals and parish churches; and whether, in view of the obvious objection to these sacred buildings being removed from their present custodians for the purpose of placing them under the control of a purely secular authority, he will undertake that no further action will be taken by him in that direction?

The Advisory Committee, as announced to the House in answer to a question by the hon. Member for Leeds, North-East, has been appointed and has held several meetings, but has not yet reported. As regards the second part of the question, the terms of reference to the Committee are confined exclusively to advisory powers, and no question of removing these buildings from their present custodians and placing them under the control of a purely secular authority arises.

Members of Parliament,(Memorial Shields)

asked the First Commissioner of Works when the shields and names of those Members of the House who fell in the Great War will be put up, in substitution for the existing heraldic shields on each side of the Clock in the Chamber?

The shields are now being executed, and it is hoped that they will be completed in time to be erected during the Recess.

Munitions

Surplus Stores, Chilwell Depot

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions whether the sales of surplus stores at Chilwell have yet been completed; and, if not, what proportion to the total stores in depot does the unsold surplus bear, and by what date it is expected the sales will be completed?

I have been asked to answer this question. The stores at the Chilwell Depot are held largely as Army Reserve stores, and, approximately, 80 per cent. have not been declared surplus. Of those that have been declared surplus, one-half has already been sold, and negotiations are proceeding for the sale of the balance. I fear that it is impossible to say when the sales will be completed. My hon. Friend will appreciate that present financial conditions are not favourable to quick disposal.

Has it been decided what will become of this depot when the sales are completed?

Smoke and Noxious Vapours Abatement

asked the Minister of Health what steps have been taken to ensure consideration being given by housing authorities to the recommendations contained in the Interim Report of the Departmental Committee on Smoke and Noxious Vapours Abatement?

The s Report has been brought to the notice of Housing Commissioners, and they have been instructed to give careful consideration to proposals submitted with a view to giving effect to its recommendations. Copies of the Report are about to be issued to local authorities with a memorandum recommending consideration of the various substitutes suggested for the open coal fire where these can be economically adopted.

Passports and Visas

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the visa system affords intending travellers an opportunity of ascertaining in advance whether they comply with the immigration regulations of the various countries they propose to visit; and, if so, whether he will explain how it came about that an American citizen, whose passport had been duly viséd by the competent British authorities in the United States, was recently arrested by Home Office officials, when the ship on which he was voyaging arrived at Southampton, the said officials not having looked at his passport prior to arresting him?

I beg leave to answer this question. The answer to the first paragraph is in the affirmative. The matter was fully explained in a reply given by the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs on the 1st December. It is always explained to applicants that the grant of a visa does not guarantee that the holder will be allowed to land in this country. While the Passport Control Officers keep in view the provisions of the Aliens Order when granting or refusing visas, it neces- sarily rests with the Immigration Officer in this country to decide whether an alien complies with those provisions, and to give or refuse leave to land accordingly. Without further particulars I cannot trace the incident referred to in the latter part of the question.

Did not the right hon. Gentleman inform us that he had the assistance of his officials at the port, and does not this particular happening, of which his officials ought to be able to tell him, show the utter futility of the whole system?

I have already said that I cannot trace the incident. If my hon. Friend will send me further particulars, I will look into them.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Departments interested have yet arrived at any conclusion in connection with the retaining of visas as a whole in this country?

Ireland

Fires, Cork

( by Private Notice ) asked the Attorney-General for Ireland whether he has any further information to throw light on the origin of the wholesale arson in Cork; whether his attention has been called to the statement in various newspapers to the effect that this arson was undoubtedly the result of reprisals; whether the rumour is true that the Auxiliary forces have been ordered out of Cork; and whether they should not have been detained until an opportunity was given to the various witnesses before the military inquiry as to whether any of them had taken part in the burning and looting of devastated Cork?

I have again communicated with the local police authorities, who inform me that no further information has yet come to light regarding the persons who committed the burnings in Cork. Nothing is known of any threats, such as those referred to by the hon. Member, having been sent by members of His Majesty's Forces. Warnings were, however, apparently given by unknown persons on Saturday night to occupants of the buildings that were set on fire. These warnings were given immediately before the buildings were set on fire. It is true that the Auxiliary police have been moved from Cork City to the West Cork district; but I am informed by general headquarters that there is no foundation for the suggestion that the military authorities have expressed any censure of their conduct in that city. Evidence both of the police and of the Auxiliary will be taken before the military Court of Inquiry.

Is it not a fact that the City of Cork is now under martial law? Therefore in what way have the police authorities anything to do with the matter?

The police authorities are acting under the direction of the military authorities.

Why does not the right hon. Gentleman get his Report from the military authorities, and not from the police authorities?

The question having been addressed to the Chief Secretary was communicated with the civil authorities who are in a full position to deal with this question.

How can there be a civil authority in a place where there is martial law?

Does the right hon. Gentleman still persist in the denial of the Government that the burnings in Cork were the result of reprisals, and, if so, is

he about to take any action against the newspapers in Ireland which have stated in the frankest and plainest manner that the incendiarism was the result of reprisals?

I must have notice of that question. The original question was only received by us at ten minutes past one.

Will the right hon. Gentleman remember that these newspapers are just as irresponsible as those who raise these questions?

Business of the House

May I ask the Leader of the House a question in connection with the Motion which stands in his name: whether he will be content with taking the Navy and Air Supplementary Estimates, say, by 11 o'clock to-night and not take any other Estimates after that time?

Is it a bargain between the Government and the Opposition that the discussion will be closed at 11 o'clock?

The hon. Member has heard the whole bargain-the question and answer. It does not mean that there shall be no other business. We shall also take the Expiring Laws (Continuance) Bill.

Motion made, and Question put,

"That the Proceedings of the Committee of Supply, and on the Roads Bill, Expiring Laws (Continuance) Bill, British Empire Exhibition (Guarantee) Bill, and on the Lords Amendments to the Women and Young Persons (Employment in Lead Processes) Bill be exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."-[ Mr. Bonar Low. ]

The House divided: Ayes, 204; Noes, 54.

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Pulley, Charles Thornton

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Jephcott, A. R.

Purchase, H. G.

Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's)

Jellett, William Morgan

Rae, H. Norman

Butcher, Sir John George

Jesson, C.

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Carr, W. Theodore

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Ramsden, G. T.

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Johnstone, Joseph

Raper, A. Baldwin

Casey, T. W.

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Cohen, Major J. Brunei

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Remer, J. R.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

Craig, Capt. C. C. (Antrim, South)

Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

Rodger, A. K.

Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid)

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Curzon, Commander Viscount

Lindsay, William Arthur

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Lloyd, George Butler

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Dean, Lieut.-Commander P. T.

Lonsdale, James Rolston

Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)

Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

Donald, Thompson

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Doyle, N. Grattan

Lyle, C. E. Leonard

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Edge, Captain William

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Lynn, R. J.

Stanton, Charles B.

Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath)

Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)

Stevens, Marshall

Elveden, Viscount

M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

Stewart, Gershom

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon James I.

Sturrock, J. Leng

Falcon, Captain Michael

Magnus, Sir Philip

Sugden, W. H.

Falle, Major Sir Bertram G.

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Forestier-Walker, L.

Manville, Edward

Sutherland, Sir William

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

Taylor, J.

Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C.

Middlebrook, Sir William

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Gardiner, James

Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B.

Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Moles, Thomas

Thomas-Stanford, Charles

Gilmour, Lieut-Colonel John

Molson, Major John Elsdale

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Glyn, Major Ralph

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Goff, Sir R. Park

Morris, Richard

Townley, Maximilian G.

Grant, James A.

Morrison, Hugh

Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Turton, E. R.

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Murchison, C. K.

Waddington, R.

Greig, Colonel James William

Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen)

Wason, John Cathcart

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

Nail, Major Joseph

Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Neal, Arthur

Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)

Wilson, Capt. A. S. (Holderness)

Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l.W.D'by)

Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Hambro, Captain Angus Valdemar

O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H.

Winfrey, Sir Richard

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Ormsby-Gore, Captain Hon. W.

Wise, Frederick

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

Parker, James

Woolcock, William James U.

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Yate, Colonel Charles Edward

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Perrlng, William George

Yeo, Sir Alfred William

Hinds, John

Pickering, Lieut.-Coionel Emil W.

Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich)

Hopkins, John W. W.

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth)

Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Pollock, Sir Ernest M.

Hotchkln, Captain Stafford Vere

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.-

Hurd, Percy A.

Pratt, John William

Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley

Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Ward.

Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H.

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

Hirst, G. H.

Sitch, Charles H.

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Spencer, George A.

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Irving, Dan

Swan, J. E.

Billing, Noel Pemberton-

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Briant, Frank

Kenyon, Barnet

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D.(Midlothian)

Tootill, Robert

Cairns, John

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Cape, Thomas

Myers, Thomas

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

Wignail, James

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

O'Connor, Thomas P.

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Glanville, Harold James

O'Grady, Captain James

Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wlgan)

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. w. (Stourbrdge)

Grundy, T. W.

Redmond, Captain William Archer

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Rendall, Athelstan

Wintringham, T.

Hallas, Eldred

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Hancock, John George

Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

Hayday, Arthur

Rose, Frank H.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.-

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Mr. Hogge and Mr. T. Shaw.

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to,—

Hulme Trust Estates (Non-Educational) Charity Bill.

Baptist Chapels Charities Bill, without Amendment.

Married Women's Property (Scotland) Bill, with an Amendment.

Government of Ireland Bill, with Amendments.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, " An Act to amend the Law with respect to the administration of justice and with respect to the constitution of the Supreme Court; to facilitate the reciprocal enforcement of judgments and awards in the United Kingdom and other parts of His Majesty's Dominions or Territories under His Majesty's protection; and to regulate the fees chargeable by and on the registration of Commissioners for Oaths." [Administration of Justice Bill [ Lords. ]

Administration of Justice Bill

[ Lords ].

Read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 262.]

Bill Presented

ELECTRICITY (SUPPLY) (NO. 2) BILL,

" to amend the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919," presented by Sir ERIC GEDDBS; supported by Mr. Secretary Shortt, Sir Robert Horne, and Mr. Neal; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 263.]

Government of Ireland Bill

Lords Amendments to be considered upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 264.]

Business Premises

Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence, brought up, and read.

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 237.]

Orders of the Day

Supply

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

NAVY SUPPLEMNTAKY ESTIMATE, 1920-21.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £6,500,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in

On a point of Order. Are the whole of these Votes to be put as one Question, or each Vote separately? Some of us might wish to vote against certain charges for shipbuilding, but not to vote against the increase of wages. If they are put together, we are placed in an awkward predicament.

This is the new system which, I understand, was recommended by the National Expenditure Committee, but I have taken care to preserve the rights of hon. Members to move a reduction either in the total Vote or in any of these items. That is the reason I read the items as printed in the Vote. A motion can be tendered to reduce any of these items, except, of course, the surpluses.

Will the Committee be able to divide upon any particular Vote? course of payment during the year ending on the 3l6t day of March 1921, for additional Expenditure on the following Navy Services, viz.:—

It does not mean that I can put these Votes separately, but a Motion can be tendered to reduce an item in the Vote.

There are 15 Votes altogether. Will it be possible in any way to discuss one Vote at a time and get rid of it, because, if we are to raise all the points on the 15 Votes, it will be difficult for the Minister to reply and to satisfy hon. Members? Is it possible in any way to discuss each Vote?

Later on the discussion can be concentrated by a Motion to reduce an item in the Vote. That will confine the Debate to a particular point.

I think it would be only proper if, in introducing the Supplementary Estimates, I were to express my own personal and deep regret at the absence of the First Lord. The Committee will recollect that some little time ago he was laid up with a serious illness. He has not yet recovered, and I am sure that I am voicing the sentiments of the whole of the Committee if I express the hope that he may soon recover and be able to take his accustomed place in the House. It would not have been necessary to have introduced any Supplementary Estimates this year had it not been for two main causes: one is a miscalculation, when the Estimates were prepared last year, in connection with war commitments. It was quite impossible for the most expert to anticipate the amount of the claims which have since fructified. The second reason is that there have been throughout the year several increases in wages, in the Civil Service bonus, and in connection with the marriage allowance, and there have been other incidental rises which have occasioned an unexpected burden on our Navy Votes, but of which, I think, the House on all occasions, as far as I can recollect, has approved. The Vote to-day covers a considerable amount of ground, and it will be for the convenience of all if I make a preliminary statement covering as much ground as possible and answering some of those questions which have been sent to me by hon. Members interested in naval and dockyard matters and whose courtesy has given me the opportunity of being able to give a more reasoned and full answer than might have been possible had they not been so obliging. Some questions during the past month have led me to believe that certain Members have been labouring under a misapprehension regarding the staff at the Admiralty. It will be well if I clear out of the way that misconception. I think both right hon. Gentlemen opposite (Sir D. Maclean and Mr. G. Lambert) have compared the men borne on Vote A prior to the War with the number now required, and have asked how, if we were able to run the Admiralty with a staff of 2,000 before the War to-day it requires something like 6,000. In anticipation of any question upon the subject, I have had a careful analysis made out for me. It has also been referred to from time to time in the public Press, the charge really being that we are maintaining at the Admiralty a much larger staff than is actually necessary.

I quite agree that it does to the uninitiated, but may I point out the following facts. First, a large amount of normal work resulting from the War is still in progress, and can be only completed within a reasonable time if extra staff is employed for the purpose. This first item includes the issue of War medals, clasps and prize money, revision of naval pensions, settlement of claims under contracts, and business transactions of all kinds, accountants' examinations of contractors' books—often very complicating negotiations—the return of stores of all kinds upon ships employed in the War, and the reconditioning of ships utilised during the War. Secondly, entirely new work has been cast upon the Department owing to various Government decisions, namely, the grant of marriage allowances, the injury in war (compensation) scheme, Pensions Increase Act, and mercantile work in the dockyards.

Well, the grant of marriage allowance was a grant made to the three Services—the Navy, the Army, and the Air Force. Previously there were separation allowances and other grants made to the various Services, but they were not in any way co-ordinated. Early in the year, I myself presided over a Committee which undertook, on behalf of the Cabinet, the work of co-ordinating the separation and various other allowances of the three Services. They were all combined together, and we now call them the marriage allowance. It was not a matter which affected only the Navy. It was a Cabinet decision governing the three Services. The injuries in war compensation scheme was approved by this House, as was, of course, the Pensions Increase Act. The whole machinery is intended to bring up to £200 in the case of unmarried persons, the pensions granted before the War. There was also the mercantile work in the dockyards, which was sanctioned by the Cabinet and generally approved by Members of the House as a means of preserving, as far as possible, those men who were in the dockyards from being thrown hurriedly on to the streets to face unemployment. The third heading relates to the invention or development of new weapons or systems or the need of overhauling weapons or systems proved to be defective during the War. That necessitated an increase of staff. It covers mines, torpedoes, paravanes, depth-charges, anti-submarine weapons, signalling, electrical equipment on board ship, and the greater dependence on oil fuel, among other things.

Fourth, there was the development of an adequate war staff. Fifth, there was the greater complexity of much of the work. All contracts and work undertaken proved much more difficult, owing to the shortage of material and to unsettled labour conditions, and contractors would not, as before the War, give firm tenders extending over a long period. All work in connection with civilian labour has been more difficult owing to movements in the industrial world which had not developed in 1914, and all questions bearing on the welfare of Naval personnel required much greater attention in order to ensure general conditions not inferior to those outside the Service. Sixth, there was the want of previous training amongst the temporary staff, the loss of efficiency due to frequent changes, and the substitution of ex-service men, many of whom were taken on in accordance with the general desire of the House. Those things necessitated an increase of staff. Seventh, there was the lack of centralised accommodation and the frequent shifting of staff to meet the necessities of the Office of Works.

I will now explain some of the items in more detail. The issue of war medals and prize money account for 300 extra staff. There are 1,600,000 medals, and 2,000,000 clasps are being allocated to those who took part in the War in the Naval Service. The prize money already distributed amounts to £4,000,000, and there is another £1,500,000 to be distributed. Those figures give some idea of the extra work thrown on the staff. The provision of pensions under the recent Act and the reassessment of pensions account for 123 extra staff, and the examination of contractors' books, in which skilled accountants are employed and which has so far saved the country something like £250,000 a month, account for 219 extra staff. Other duties coming under No. 1 of my already adumbrated list account for about 1,000. That is in connection with the settlement of claims and transactions of all kinds, returned stores, and the reconditioning of ships, New work accounts for about 400 extra, and the creation of an adequate war staff, which we did not possess before the War, accounts for about 260 more. I hope the Committee will allow me later to impress upon them the necessity of permitting us to have an adequate war staff. I believe it is one of the most important subjects we have to discuss to-day. The development work under heading No. 3 and the general conditions referred to under heading No. 5 account for another 1,000. I come next to the charwomen, who number 506. Those figures are largely due to the scattered buildings we occupy. It is sometimes imagined that the Admiralty is all contained in the Admiralty building. That is not so. Even now, working as hard as we can to discharge our War liabilities and to get rid of all outstanding claims, we have 28 buildings scattered throughout London, and those buildings necessitate the large number of cleaners or charwomen to which I have referred.

I have given those figures in order that the Committee may know as much as I can tell them about the staff at the Admiralty. I will deal next with items which look rather large. Where there is a decrease I will leave the figures to some ingenious Member of the Committee who may wish to raise a point. There may be some increased items to which I do not refer specifically, but I am prepared to answer any inquiries regarding them. I have merely selected a few items to show how there has arisen an increase which we could not have foreseen when the original Estimates were prepared. Take the whole of Vote 8 III and Vote 9. There is an increase on the one of £1,829,900, and on the other of £1,648,000. Those increases arise from the clearing up of contracts which were entered into before the War and have come along since. We must meet them. The two items eat into the £6,500,000 for which I am asking to-day. In case the Committee should ask, "How is it that you have to ask for so large a sum, and were not able to anticipate it?" I will give one class of case as an illustra- tion of practically all the items. If the Committee will turn to Vote 11, Miscellaneous Effective Services, and look at Sub-head G, they will observe £105,000 increase over the original Estimate for compensation for damage done by His Majesty's ships.

The Committee will readily understand how difficult it would be for anyone to estimate beforehand how much it would be necessary to pay as compensation for damage in time of peace. In time of war the number of claims is, of course, enormously increased. Someone may say that two years after the War we are still paying claims of that kind. It arises in this way. The principal heading under these claims is collisions or damage done during coaling. Such damage necessarily was much greater relatively during the War than in peace time, because during peace our most skilled officers are in charge of ships, and during War less skilled men in many instances have charge of ships. These claims are coming in only now. The reason for that is that in many instances, although the damage was done to the ships that were sent out to coal, those vessels after the Armistice were able to earn such high freights that it would not have paid the owners to lay them up for the purpose of repair, but now that freights have fallen the boats have come in for repairs in the ordinary course, and it has been thought advisable to have rectified the damage due to collisions and coaling in the period of the War. In a large number of these claims the damage was done by ships with their lights out.

Take Vote 11, Z. Miscellaneous Payments and Allowances. There is an increase of £68,000. It was impossible for us in framing the Estimates to arrive at an exact figure, because £300,000 of the £452,000 in the original Estimate goes to the Netherlands, Norway, and other neutral countries for internment expenses. I am not sure that that is the whole of the figure for our prisoners of war when interned. Dock dues during the War amounted to £122,000, and wreck removal £19,000, and those items account more or less for the extra sum asked for in that Vote. Practically the same remarks apply to several other items that appear under the various sub-heads. When the War was over we had vast commitments. They were cut off as if with a knife— contracts for buildings, armour plate and all classes of war material. The larger firms having these great contracts in some instances completed them. The Admiralty was the deciding factor as to the completion of a contract. If the contract was nearly finished, the Admiralty decided that it would be better to spend a little more money to get the article finished rather than to scrap what had already been done. Over and above that, there was a vast number of contracts which had to be investigated by the staff to which I have referred in order to arrive at the cost, and this has gone on, and is still going on, as speedily as possible, and I personally, with the heads of the Departments took up this question of concluding our War commitments at the earliest possible date, so the sum of money for which we are asking to-day is in consequence of the extra energy which the Departments have loyally put into this work, Any other question with regard to that I will, of course, be prepared to answer later on.

I come now to some of those specific points that hon. Members have been kind enough to advise me about in advance, and I will take first the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy), who was courteous enough to ask me by a private notice question whether any of the additional expenses of medical stores was due to the operations in the Black Sea. The answer to that is in the negative. The hon. and gallant Member also asked me with regard to the delay in cutting down entries of cadets. The number of entries of cadets at Osborne increased during the War consequent upon the large requirements of officers and the impossibility of foretelling when the War would end. For the same reason, large entries of "special entry" cadets were made. The question of reducing the number of entries was considered immediately the Armistice was concluded, and the number of "special entries" at the next examination, in April, 1919, was 30, as against 80 at the previous entry. At all subsequent examinations the number has been 15, which is as small a number as could be conveniently taken. It is very desirable to continue the "special entry" method, as well as "through the colleges." As regards entries at Osborne, arrangements for the January, 1919, entry were already made at the date of the Armistice, and they could not have been cancelled without a breach of faith with the parents. After 1919 the entries were reduced to 40 per term, which is the lowest number which the colleges could economically take. This number of entries at Osborne, with the 15 "special entries," provides 135 cadets a year, which figure will ultimately have to be increased in order to provide a sufficient number of officers for post-War requirements. My hon. and gallant Friend also asked me with regard to the extra £10,000 under Vote 10, Subhead G, "Purchases of land and buildings." It is explained by the payment of £10,000 on account of the acquisition of land and foreshore at Inverkeithing for a submarine base. This will correspondingly relieve the Vote for 1921_22. Those are the three questions which my hon. and gallant Friend asked me specially to answer.

The Noble Lord the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon) asked with regard to temporary schoolmasters who had joined permanently, and the number is seven. He also asked with regard to wreck charts, under Vote 6, Sub-head C. There were no wreck charts published regularly before the War, but wreck charts for British islands were published in January, 1919, and are still on sale. They will not be published annually, but new editions will be produced as and when found necessary.

Perhaps the Committee will be pleased to hear that this morning I was able to receive final approval of the scheme for the Reserves. I know that the patience of Members of this House and of those interested in our Reserves outside has been very much taxed by the long delay, but my right hon. Friend the First Lord promised the House that at the earliest possible moment he would make a statement, and I am only sorry he is not here to make it himself, with regard to our Reserves. It so happens that we could from time to time have issued parts of the scheme piecemeal as they came through, but on the whole we thought it would be better, even at the risk of all that the delay means, to wait till the whole scheme was completed before venturing to put it before this House and the country, and we also felt that as we had only taken a token Vote of about £60,000 in Vote 7 for the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, it would be better not to proceed with recruiting for the Reserves until we saw clearly how our divisional headquarters would be improved. Consequently, that is the explanation why before this we have not been able to give to the House and to the country the information which I know they are most anxious to have. In saying that, I must apologise for not having had time, as it only came into my hands at about half-past one o'clock to-day, to make myself as familiar with it as I would like to be, and perhaps if I briefly give the outline of the scheme to-day hon. Members will be good enough to reserve their criticisms. Before giving the scheme in outline in its entirety, perhaps I may answer a further question by the Noble Viscount with regard to his own particular Division, the Sussex Division and the St. Leonards headquarters. I might as well explain to the Committee that we occupied Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve buildings during the War on the undertaking that when the War was over we would reinstate them and put them into proper order before handing them back, and I think there are complaints that some of those headquarters have not been put into proper repair and were unfairly treated by the Admiralty, but it had to be borne in mind how our scheme worked out. It might have been necessary to scrap some of these headquarters, and therefore a difficult problem faced us. However, I think what I am about to say will satisfy those hon. Members who take a keen interest in the Divisions, the Noble Viscount in the Sussex Divison and my hon. Friend who represents the London Division. With regard to other centres, Hove, Newhaven, and Eastbourne, it is hoped to obtain a decision very shortly.

With regard to the scheme itself, the experience of the late War has shown that the trust that was reposed in the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve has been abundantly justified and has decided us to maintain these forces on much the same lines as in the years before the War, but at the same time to improve the conditions of service and to increase the opportunities of both officers and men to fit themselves for the varied services required in modern naval warfare. It is neither necessary nor possible to maintain a permanent Reserve of sufficient size to fulfil all war requirements, and we propose therefore to maintain only sufficient numbers to meet our needs on mobilisation and in the early days of war, and at the same time

All men will, on enrolment, undergo a preliminary training, which, in the case of a seaman rating, will include such subjects as naval discipline and customs, seamanship, signals, and gunnery. They will then be classified for fleet or patrol service and, subject to the requirements of the service, they will be allowed to take up that class of work for which on enrolment they have expressed a preference.

My right hon. and learned Friend will perhaps pardon me for not answering that question at once. There may be some particular reason for not including them, or it may have been overlooked, but I will look into the matter to see if mine-sweeping is included or not. I need hardly assure my right hon. and learned Friend that I am fully aware of the importance of that point. It is proposed to set up a permanent Advisory Committee for the Royal Naval Reserve under the presidency of the Admiral Commanding Coastguard and Reserves, the other members consisting of the Registrar-General of Shipping and Seamen and representatives of the shipowners' associations and senior Royal Naval Reserve officers. The Committee will advise generally on any subjects connected with the Royal Naval Reserve, on which the opinions of shipowners and of Royal Naval Reserve officers in general are required. The Admiralty hope that the establish to provide an efficient machinery for rapidly expanding our Reserves immediately on the outbreak of war. The personnel of each of the two Reserves will be organised in three classes, namely: ment of such a Committee will help to maintain the close connection which has existed between the Royal Navy and the Merchant Service during the War and ensure a closer co-operation with both shipowners and officers in dealing with matters affecting the well-being of the Reserve.

With regard to this Committee, in the case of the representatives of the Merchant Service officers and the fishing skippers, will the organisations be allowed to nominate their own representatives, or will they be nominated by the Admiralty without any form of election or choice by the persons concerned? I do not press for an answer now.

I think I had better confine myself to the statement I have here. At the same time the Admiralty Volunteer Committee, which has performed such admirable work in regard to the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve since 1903, is being reconstituted as the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Committee, and will continue in its new form to advise on matters affecting the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve from a volunteer point of view. The Admiralty think it necessary that the periods of training for Royal Naval Reserve officers should be increased in order that they may obtain the knowledge necessary under modern conditions. For example, the periods of training for deck officers will broadly be as follows:— engine-room artificer, petty officer, and stoker petty officer, which were instituted during the War, will be retained, and, in addition, chief petty officer ratings will be instituted for the seaman and stoker branches. It is intended that men shall be selected for non-substantive ratings in the Service to which they will be allocated. The annual retainers for warrant officers, petty officers, and men of the Royal Naval Reserve will be as follows:

Probationary Midshipmen

6 months' continuous training in one of His Majesty's ships to be undergone on joining, but not so as to interrupt apprentice time.

Acting Sub - Lieutenant and Probationary Sub-Lieutenant.

3 months' continuous Naval training.

Sub-Lieutenant and Lieutenant

28 days biennially.

Lieut.-Commander

28 days biennially for 4 years after promotion to Lieut-Commander, and subsequently 28 days every 3 years.

Commander and Captain

28 days every 3 years.

Commodores

£30 per annum

Captains

Commanders

Lieut.-Commanders

£25 per annum

Lieutenants

Sub-Lieutenants, confirmed only

£20 per annum

Chief Skippers

£25 per annum.

Commissioned Engineers

Warrant Engineers

£20 per annum.

Skippers

Chief Petty Officers

£12 per annum.

Petty Officers

Leading Rates

£10 per annum.

Other Ratings

£8 per annum.

aim at a total personnel of about 5,000. It is intended to afford opportunities to those living in inland districts to become members of this force instead of confining its membership to those living in the local areas within reach of divisional headquarters. The personnel will therefore be divided into two categories. List I will consist of officers and men belonging to divisions and attending at divisional headquarters for instruction. This list will include the majority of executive officers and men. List II will consist of officers and men who will be borne on divisional lists for administrative purposes, but will not necessarily attend at headquarters for instruction. It is intended that all Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve officers shall have a special training in a particuuar branch of the service. In order that they may reach a sufficiently high standard, naval training will in most cases be obligatory, and will be carried out either in His Majesty's ships or in Naval Establishments ashore, according to circumstances.

Signalmen,

Seamen,

Telegraphists,

Engine Room Artificers,

Motor Mechanics,

Victualling Ratings, and

Artisan Branches, as in the Royal Navy.

All Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve seamen will be required to qualify in a special subject during their first period of four years' service, and will afterwards be allowed to volunteer to qualify to nonsubstantive rates according to requirements. The Admiralty think it necessary that naval training shall in future be obligatory for all Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve ratings. Ratings of all branches will in future perform 42 days' naval training each term of four years. The training will be taken in periods of 14 or 28 days; at least 14 days of this training must be performed in His Majesty's ships, and the remainder will take the form of special courses at a Naval School or establishment. The Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve is, of course, a force of volunteers, but the Admiralty are of opinion that men who are willing to devote their leisure to making themselves fit for service in the Naval Force in time of war should not thereby be out of pocket. They therefore propose that a scale of bounties shall be introduced which will, in the case of a trained man who has fulfilled all the requirements, amount to the sum of £5 per annum. The maximum for ordinary seamen, youths, and buglers will be £4 only. A bounty of £5 will be paid to each Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve rating, provided he is medically fit. This bounty will supersede the grant of detained pay. This is important. The Admiralty propose to abolish the system of capitation grants in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, and in future all expenditure on Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve establishments, including stores, furniture, and rent for land and buildings will be met by the Admiralty as in the case of Naval establishments. The success of the arrangements under which the new entries were trained during the War at the Crystal Palace has decided the Admiralty to adopt a similar scheme in future, and a suitable establishment will be earmarked during peace time, and plans prepared for its conversion immediately on mobilisation. long run, interfere with men coming forward to join the splendid service of the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. I think, perhaps, I have covered the ground I had set out to do. In conclusion, I should say that the Supplementary Estimates which have been framed have been drawn up in accordance with the promise which my right hon. Friend the First Lord made to my right hon. Friend opposite, that in future the Navy Estimates should have, not only the bald figures embodied, but, so far as possible, an explanatory statement at the bottom of each Vote. Not only will that principle be carried out in the case of these Supplementary Estimates, but it is proposed to adopt the same course, and even to a fuller degree, with regard to the Estimates for next year. Secondly, I would like to say that I have myself personally devoted my time to a large extent in arranging for a reduction of expenses so far as possible in the future. No Department could have more loyally backed me up than my advisers have done in this matter during the year or so I have been in the position of Financial Secretary to the Admiralty. I can assure the Committee that the desire of all the Admiralty is to exercise the most scrupulous conduct, to be punctilious about every item of the Department, and although I regret having to come before the Committee for Supplementary Estimates at all, a great deal of the money was unavoidable, At the same time, I feel quite confident in my own mind that every step towards economy that can be taken is being taken by the Admiralty at the present moment.

5.0 P.M.

My hon. and gallant Friend struck a very sympathetic note when he referred to the absence of the First Lord of the Admiralty. We all regret that the First Lord is prevented by ill-health from being present. He is one of the oldest and most respected Members of the House. He became a Member of the House some 40 years ago, and I hope we shall see him with us for a good many more years, and that it will not be long before he is back at his post again. May I also say a word of congratulation to my hon. and gallant Friend who has just sat down 1 Last time he had rather a stormy voyage with his Estimates, and I do not wonder at it, because he was new to the work, and I know from experience that it takes a man a considerable time to gather together the threads of a great Department like the Admiralty. There is not the slightest doubt that my hon. and gallant Friend has worked very hard, as is shown by the completeness of the statement he has made this afternoon. He has a mastery of his subject, and though I may be critical a little later on, one must recognise that he has been very industrious and has presented the Committee with a very complete statement. I have one other word to say in agreement with him, and that is as to the loyalty of the officials of the Admiralty. They are perfectly splendid. They will carry out any policy their chiefs wish to be carried out. So in any criticism I, for my part, shall blame the heads of the Admiralty and not the officials, because I know they are extremely loyal. My hon. and gallant Friend says he is very sorry to come to the House for these Supplementary Estimates. So am I. These Supplementary Estimates bring the Naval Estimates up to £90,000,000, against pre-War Estimates of about £50,000,000. Before the War the German Fleet was in being; to-day the German Fleet is at the bottom of the sea. The Chancellor of the Exchequer chided me the other day because I referred to his celebrated Resolution, passed by the House in October, 1919, to the effect that this House would support the Government in economy, as a pious platitude. When I see the Supplementary Estimates which are coming along, I cannot see that rigid desire for economy that I would like to see in all Government Departments. These Supplementary Estimates are really abnormal. I have never known anything like it—£6,500,000. That is not all. My hon. and gallant Friend with great skill avoided telling us that he had had some very unexpected windfalls, having sold a good many naval stores which have brought in a larger amount than was estimated. May I remind him of them? In Vote 8, Appropriations-in-Aid, in addition to the Estimate there is an amount of £2,250,000. In Vote 9 he gets £261,000, in Vote 10, £55,000. That means that he has had these unexpected windfalls over and above what he expected when the Estimates were presented to the House. It is a total of something like £2,566,000. That brings these Supplementary Estimates to £9,000,000.

I am giving the unexpected windfalls. My right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) has told us that we must realise when we are selling stores that they have to be paid for out of Vote of Credit Estimates, that it is not altogether a recurring revenue, and that it will come to an end. I want to ask my right hon. Friend what really has gone wrong? Has there been a change of policy in the Admiralty since the Estimates were formed, because with my experience of the Accounting Department of the Admiralty I cannot imagine that there should be this very large difference beween their Estimate and the expenditure of the year? Has there been any real change of policy, because that alone, it seems to me, can account for this large Supplementary Estimate? In this Estimate there is a Vote of something like £1,880,000 more for the dockyard establishments. My hon. and gallant Friend (Sir J. Craig) gave me very complete information the other day, for which I am much obliged to him. He did not attempt to prevaricate at all. [Laughter.] Of course, one gets information and information, but my hon. and gallant Friend gave me most complete information.

And I bear my testimony to that. Before the War there were in the dockyards 58,000 men. Today there are 77,000. My hon. and gallant Friend never gave us any explanation of that at all: There are 19,000 more men than before the War, when the German Fleet was in being. I ask the Admiralty, through my hon. and gallant Friend, whether it is not possible—in fact, it must be possible—to reduce this large establishment. I am sorry to have run counter to the dockyard Members, I know they will criticise me, but I have to represent the general taxpayers of the country. As one of the reasons for this large Supplementary Vote you have seven dockyards. Before the War there were six. Whilst the War was going on the great naval dockyard at Rosyth was completed. You at the Admiralty are giving men at the dockyard work for work's sake in order to prevent great discharges. This cannot go on. It is impossible that it can go on, and I suggested in the Naval Estimates this year on 18th March—

Yes, it is a point I have endeavoured to press home consistently. I suggest to the Admiralty that they must close three or four dockyards There is no other way out of it if they are to reduce the great expenditure. I suggest to them, with great deference, that the Sea Lords should be called together and asked, "Now, what are the three, or possibly four, most important dockyards that you wish to keep open?" and the others must go. I do not say they can be shut up all at once. A great population has grown up round the dockyards, money has been spent there by the Government, and an enormous amount of machinery and plant has been laid down, and, of course, you have houses and buildings for workmen, shops supplying them, churches and schools. Is it not possible to sell these yards to private firms? Last year there was a great demand for yards like this. Lord Colwyn stated in his Report that several offers to lease portions of the dockyards from the Admiralty had been put forward by private shipbuilders. To lease portions of the dockyards is impossible. You cannot have private enterprise and Government enterprise going on side by side. I suggest to you that you should endeavour to sell these dockyards or to get them devoted to productive purposes. You are keeping them to-day for the purpose of giving work.

Perhaps my right hon. Friend will bear in mind that he must not emphasise the word "unproductive," because none of the men engaged at the present time are occupied with unproductive work. It is most productive. We are building four oilers, two of them for mercantile purposes.

That is a point to which I wish to direct attention. You are laying down two commercial oil tankers. In ordinary circumstances these would have been built by commercial firms. I make no charge against the Admiralty, but I do say that shipping will be produced cheaper, more efficiently, and more rapidly by private firms than by Government dockyards.

On the other hand, how would we get the orders? My right hon. Friend must recognise that we would not have got orders from private individuals unless they were quite sure that we could turn them out as quickly, cheaply, and efficiently as private yards.

There are some people, like my right hon. Friend (Mr. Adamson), who believe that the Government is a very wonderful institution for building ships and for doing other kinds of things. I am one of those who does not believe that. In pursuance of the policy which I have preached from this box, I do ask the Admiralty not to engage in commercial enterprise.

Perhaps my right hon. Friend will say how we got the orders in the open market against private builders?

I am very glad to hear it. It is the first time I have heard of any Government Department being able to beat private enterprise in commercial shipbuilding. I should like to go to the Admiralty and examine the records of getting these orders. But I still go back to my point, that if you are going to keep on these seven dockyards you have not got enough naval work for them, and you must impinge on private enterprise. Have you been able to sell Rich-borough? I am trying to be constructively critical. I have given a great deal of thought to the question and to what I should do if I were at the Admiralty. I should try to get rid of some of these dockyards, and get them into private hands, so that they may be producing something which we can exchange for food from abroad, or producing something useful to the community. Of course, there is going to be great opposition to this, because all men in Government service have fairly good employment, they are fairly secure, and I do not suppose they perspire too freely. Last year—and here I blame the Admiralty very much indeed—they had an offer to lease Pembroke, but that was turned down. Why was it turned down? Why did not you lease Pembroke to a private shipbuilder? Then you would have got rid of a part of your liability here. I say again that it is impossible for the Admiralty to go on, in the present state of our national finances, and in view of the private shipbuilding which they have got to undertake to keep 77,000 men in the dockyards.

They ought to be reduced very, very considerably indeed. This is exciting a great deal of interest outside. My hon. Friend talks of bonuses. I have letters in my post bag pretty frequently from people who have small fixed incomes. Many of these letters are most pathetic. The writers ask sometimes with a rather biting irony why is it that they alone have no larger income than they had, and yet have to bear the War taxes and the interminably increased prices? I will ask my hon. and gallant Friend a question a little later about what is the future policy of the Admiralty in regard to the dockyards and building of ships? But I want to ask him now about Vote 8. We have got here £1,800,000' more than the original estimate. Why? You have got a large amount of war materials to come in. I do not understand it—two years after the Armistice, too! There is in Vote 8, propelling machinery, £465,000 more than you thought you were going to have. There is £360,000 more than you thought you would require in hulls of ships.

Perhaps I can clear that up at once. These are outstanding War liabilities. They are coming in addition to what we expected and what we budgeted for last year. Those my right hon. Friend refers to are all being cleared out of the way; being settled and paid for. We are paying contractors who have done certain work which was rather in excess of what they thought would be needed.

I can quite understand that. Of course you have to pay for it, but I cannot understand why these orders were not stopped. It is two years since the Armistice! Here are gun mountings, which are really war material, £650,000 more than your Estimate. That is a very large sum. I do not understand why it was necessary. My hon. and gallant Friend seeks to give me the information I ask in this matter, but I cannot say that I am satisfied. Take Naval Armaments. That is contract work. If you look at Vote 9 you will find £203,000 more than estimated for wages of artificers and others. Guns are contract work, I do not understand this £805,000 more for projectiles and ammunition, nor the £251,000 more for torpedoes, mines, etc. I do not understand why the Admiralty was not sufficiently acquainted with its own contracts that it did not know within £1,648,000 how much it ought to pay for contract work. There is something wrong somewhere. I do not know quite where it is. My hon. and gallant Friend says that it is due to larger requirements for stores, and for armaments supplied to torpedo depots. I cannot understand the Admiralty wanting these larger requirements for guns, projectiles, etc., now. Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will give me an explanation later. It is not because there is a lack of staff at the Admiralty; there is a very large staff there. Again, I have figures—those of the Admiralty itself—obtained the other day. I am going to ask the reasons why this condition of affairs obtains?

There were 2,072 people at the Admiralty before the War; there are to-day 6,198—three times as many. It does not much look as if Government staffs had been reduced very rapidly. There is more than that. Before the War the Naval Air Force was quartered at the Admiralty. It has been taken away. A very large number of people were transferred during the War to the Shipping Controller. A good many men went from the Admiralty to the Air Force. I cannot help thinking that at the present time we have got a superbly-equipped and very numerous Navy on shore. I suppose Admirals will be put in command. Of course, I can understand that there has been some confusion at the Admiralty—indeed a great deal. Next to Providence we owe our safety to the Navy. But the Admiralty during the War was made a dumping ground for many First Lords, and naturally there is confusion because, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir E. Carson) once said: "For the first six months at the Admiralty you are completely at sea. It is a very difficult matter to pick up the work at the Admiralty." In fact, I was two years getting my sea legs.

Perhaps it was that lack of ability which is not shared by my hon. Friend who interrupted? What is the policy of the Admiralty in regard to their war services? One of the great faults before the War was that we had no thinking Department at the Admiralty. It is worth while to have one. No Member of the House will begrudge any money to keep a thinking Department at the Admiralty, at any time to consider the possibilities of the future. We were lacking at the beginning of the War because we had not the men who could study current problems. We had no mines at the beginning of the War. We have been told that on high authority. If we had this competent thinking Department—and there is no reason why we should not have it—it would be well. What has become of the Board of Inventions? That is absolutely essential for the Admiralty, for the purpose of considering things and bringing knowledge up to date, because in naval strategy—and I am sure the hon. And gallant Gentleman opposite who did such splendid service at the Admiralty during the War will bear me out—everything in naval strategy has been revolutionised by the submarine and the flying machine. Therefore a thinking Department is absolutely essential, backed up by the best scientific brains that you can get in the country. Do not stick the Admiralty alone. There are some able men outside. There are some able scientists and inventors, and I would suggest to the Admiralty that they should call in the very best intellect to help them in the great problems they have to solve—for this is a great problem! We have seen in the public Press great controversy as to the capital ship and the submarine. It does not become a non-expert to pronounce an opinion, but what we do want to get is the best information. To my mind the Admiralty has been strangely lax. One of the greatest condemnations anyone can express on the Admiralty is that they have always betrayed the force for which they are responsible. They have committed the Air Force to be under the Secretary of State for War. I really cannot understand how the Board of Admiralty—

On a point of Order. Is the right hon. Gentleman in order discussing the policy of the Government in regard to the Air Force on this Supplementary Estimate?

No, it is not in order. I thought the right hon. Gentleman was getting a little away from the Supple- mentary Estimate. There is no Vote here that deals with the general policy of the Admiralty in regard to the staff.

Perhaps I may be allowed to say that it would not be just to the Board to say that we have handed over to another Department the very important Air Force, except during its experimental stages. As soon as the experimental stages are over, possibly a new plan will be adopted.

May I ask if you would give your ruling whether we might be allowed a discussion later in regard to the Admiralty staff on the question of capital ships? It has already been raised.

That would be quite out of order. That comes up on the main Vote next spring, not on this Vote.

May I put it to you, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, Vote 12 contains an estimate for the Admiralty office and there is an increase of over £374,000. This figure contains the salaries of the Board of Admiralty, and therefore I may be allowed to express, briefly, of course, my view of their policy on that. Here is a Vote for the Admiralty itself, £374,700 more than they anticipated. What are they doing with the money? I do not, however, want to pursue that point. It really is important to consider it, and I just add this. If you are going to do any good with the Navy in the future, the Navy must have the aircraft for its eyes, and to put the eyes of the Navy under the Secretary of State for War is to me unthinkable. I congratulate my hon. and gallant Friend. If I have been critical, it has been with a desire to save the taxpayers' money and get efficiency and economy in Admiralty administration.

I beg to move that Item Vote 8 {Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc., Section III Contract Work) be reduced by £500,000.

I wish to join with what my right hon. Friend who has just spoken has said in regretting the absence of the First Lord, and I only hope that the causes of his absence will soon be removed. The Parliamentary Secretary, in introducing these Estimates, remarked that the war staff before the War was insufficient in numbers, I do not think that was so much the case as the fact that it was not organised as a war staff ought to have been. With regard to the organisation of the large war staff at the Admiralty, I think this touches on the question of a thinking Department. I want to know if this Department has been separated from the administrative staff. In peace time the administrative side is bound to absorb the best qualities of the men on the Admiralty staff. There should be a complete divorce between those two Departments, and the work of planning the personnel and the higher ranks for war and the Intelligence Department should be completely divorced from the administrative staff. In the past the time of the overburdened Chief of Staff and the First Lord has been taken up with questions affecting the personnel, and so forth, and they have not been able to look ahead and prepare for the great struggle which may come upon us.

I am sure there is no one in this House who will begrudge a penny for improving the thinking part of the war staff of the Navy. I can foresee the one difficulty with regard to one important section of the Reserves, and that is the Trawler Section of the Royal Naval Reserve. Here you have a number of deep-sea fishermen who are trained mine-sweepers, and they are the finest body of seamen to be found anywhere. Personally, I am glad to hear that they are to have an opportunity of qualifying for further service in the Navy when required. But I think that thirty-eight days' training for these men every two years is too much, because their ordinary day to day training is a continual training for mine-sweeping. They are continually being trained at sea in small ships, and the guns which those ships carry are not very complicated, and when you send one or two gunnery or electrical ratings to look after them it does not take long to give them the necessary training. To expect these fishermen, who work extremely hard, to give up thirty-eight days every two years is a mistake, and I can see trouble there at once, judging from my own knowledge of these men in my own constituency, which is the second biggest trawling port in the world. Perhaps thirty-eight days' training for an officer on a liner is not too much, but the same period for the skipper of a trawler is not necessary. After all, these men earn very large incomes, amounting in some cases to £1,000 a year, and the best of the skippers are often competed for by the various fishing companies. Therefore, it is a very great sacrifice to ask them to give up thirty-eight days.

With regard to the Reserves, I am very glad, indeed, to hear that the Admiralty have at last found their policy. I would like to ask what the Reconstruction Committee were doing during 1917–18. I know one or two officers who were serving on that Committee, and they happened to be temporarily disabled by the War. I should like to know what the Committee were doing in this respect, and I much fear that we have lost excellent men from the Royal Naval Reserve Force because they have gone into the Territorials. I take it that persons who know the special needs of the different branches of the Reserves are going to advise the Admiralty as to the conditions on the proposed Committee.

I want to know if the different organisations of officers of the Royal Naval Reserve, the Association of Trawlers' Skippers and Mates, and other associations will be invited to nominate their representatives on this Committee, or will those representatives be nominated by the Admiralty? They differ from their comrades in the Royal Naval Volunteers, who are drawn from men in all professions of the community, because they are not organised like the trawlers and the Royal Naval Reserve. It is natural for these branches to nominate representatives to discuss questions of pay, and they are practically a trade union, although they are a professional association. I think it would be a very good move if the Admiralty would invite these different associations to nominate one or two representatives to meet together to advise the Admiralty on these questions. All seamen are great grumblers, and it would be better if they were asked to come and express their grievances in a constitutional way to the Admiralty. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would let me know his reply to this question on the Report Stage of the Vote.

I want to ask a question about the whole sum total of these very heavy Supplementary Estimates. After all, the amount we are spending on the Navy is £105,283,000, and that is a very large sum. I think we have a right to scrutinise these extremely heavy Supplementary Estimates with a good deal of care in view of the financial situation of the country. I want to know how much of these Supplementary Estimates is due to our policy abroad? I do not wish to say anything about the policy itself, but I would like to ask whether it includes any sums spent during the last few years with reference to the Greeks in Asia Minor and their operations against the Turks. Does it include anything for supporting the White Russians against the Bolsheviks, because, if it does, I should like to know what that has cost?

With regard to the question of medical supplies, the hon. and gallant Gentleman said that they cost nothing, but I should like to know if the operations in the case of the Greeks have been carried out without extra expenditure in regard to fuel, munitions and stores. If that is so, I would like to know how it has been done. Before this Vote is passed, I hope we shall have some approximate estimate of the extra money we are voting on account of this policy. I am not attacking the policy now, but it is not for want of willingness. I want to know what all these things have cost the country, and that I think we have a right to know, because I do not want us to continue going down the slippery slope until we end in a financial crash. I would like to know what the operations in the Black Sea, the Sea of Marmora and Asia Minor have cost, and the hon. and gallant Gentleman might also tell us whether the cost of the Baltic operations have been included.

I am going to see if we can make any saving on this Vote, and I want to point out where the extravagances are. There are extravagances in the Navy, and this is an extremely dangerous thing. I am as anxious as anybody to see that we have an efficient navy, but I cannot bear to see money wasted on non-effective services, because one day the country really will be aroused to the waste campaign, and then probably we shall go to the other extreme and cut down most essential services. Therefore it is important to check the spending of money on ineffective services. We are keeping a large number of perfectly obsolete ships abroad which are no use for fighting purposes. I am sorry to see that one of these ships which is an obselete second-class cruiser, and quite useless for fighting purposes, is still the flag ship of the Commander-in-Chief in the East Indies. That is not showing our flag with dignity, while at the same time there are other ships of greater fighting value which have no crews. The flag ship of the reserve fleet at Portsmouth, although it has a full staff and a band, has only got 10 able seamen, and that means that the ship is not fit to go into the fighting line, and the money being spent upon it is money wasted. Here you are keeping up a ship like the "Highflyer" using stores, while you have a Dreadnought with nothing like the number of able seamen she requires to keep her in efficient commission. That sort of thing is really scandalous.

Then there is the question of the yachts. There are three of these outside the Royal yachts, and they are taking up large crews and officers and they cost a lot of money. There is the "Surprise," the "Enchantress," and the "Alacrity." The "Enchantress" is an Admiralty yacht, and I contend that it is time the Admiralty dropped this yacht altogether. We want every penny we can get to keep the Navy efficient, and we cannot afford to spend money on yachts. Although it may have added to the dignity of previous First Lords to be able to go about in a yacht, I am certain that the present First Lord has no need of anything of the kind in order to maintain his dignity. The "Enchantress" is a very expensive vessel. I do not know what they are doing with the "Surprise" and the "Alacrity." The "Surprise" was withdrawn from the Mediterranean before the War, and it is most extraordinary she should have been brought out again. With regard to the Royal yachts, I do not propose to say anything except that there are two of them. I do not know if the Admiralty is keeping them up or whether any suggestion has been made that one will do. That is not a question I care to pursue. I merely mention the point. They are very fine vessels indeed, and if it were possible to do with only one in the winter months it might be as well. I mention it as showing where a saving could, in the last resort, be effected.

Then there are two armoured cruisers which are really almost obsolete, the "Antrim" and the "Carnarvon." They are both in full commission. I suppose they are being used as training ships for cadets or boys, but I do not know. These two ships are really obsolescent. They are armed cruisers, they are not fast, they never could do scouting work, and they have a very heavy draught, which is a great disadvantage in these days. Training ships should be efficient modern vessels. There are plenty of modern light cruisers which are being kept, but which we have no men to man. These light cruisers should, I suggest, be used for the training service instead of the obsolescent armed cruisers to which I have referred. Here, again, is a chance of saving money and at the same time increasing the efficiency of the Fleet. It would be a complete saving to scrap and get rid of ships like the "Antrim " and the "Carnarvon," and to employ modern cruisers for the work. The latter may not be quite so suitable for training cadets and boys, but that is not very important. We could train the boys there, although not so comfortably. The same remarks apply with greater emphasis to the "Commonwealth," an old ship of mine. What is she doing in full commission as a gunnery training ship? Why are we not using one of the Dreadnoughts which have been paid off?

The hon. and gallant Member said that his observations would be directed to points on which it would be possible to save money, and as long as his remarks are directed to that object, he will be in order, but he is not in order in discussing general questions of policy with regard to the use of these ships.

I desire to keep myself strictly in order. I am quite clear that we have fighting "Dreadnoughts" fit for Service, and as you have to spend money on them to keep them efficient, in any case, from a fighting point of view, I suggest that the "Commonwealth" could be scrapped to-morrow without decreasing our fighting strength. It would be a great gain if the men were taken from the "Commonwealth" and put into one of these Dreadnoughts. And I should like to be told any reason why that should not be done. The same remarks apply to the "Espiegle," a sloop, and to the "Merlin," a gunboat at Hong Kong. Why should the latter carry several officers on board? She is no use, except possibly as a store ship. These are examples where saving could be effected without any loss of efficiency. In Vote 8, Section 3, Sub-head K, there is a sum taken for the purchase of ships and vessels. I should like to know what these ships and vessels are. Why on earth are the Admiralty purchasing ships and vessels to-day when we already have a plethora of them? We cannot get adequate harbour accommodation for them and we have no men for them. Why are we purchasing more vessels? If one of the vessels is the "Princess Margaret," an old C.P.R. liner, I think it is a scandal. This vessel was hired at a very high cost during the War. She should have been purchased at the beginning. The Admiralty could not foresee the length of the War and took her on hire, thinking, probably, it would be the cheaper plan. She has been very expensively fitted, and is to be brought into the Service. As a liner, she stands a great height out of the water. She has a very deep draught, and that is a tremendous disadvantage, especially if she is to be used, as has been suggested, as a mine-layer. I think the Admiralty have been most ill-advised in purchasing this ship. She is old and unsuitable and very expensive. We have plenty of mine-layers without her, vessels which have not her disadvantages. We have them among the submarines and the destroyers. There has been a great lack of clear thinking in adopting this policy.

The question of the dockyards also comes under this Vote. It has already been referred to by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert). I wish to reinforce what he has said. We have to get a policy with regard to our dockyards. I have great sympathy with the men who have devoted their lives to service in the yards, but we have to decide what yards it is essential we should keep and what can be got rid of. The latter could be sold or turned over for mercantile work. We cannot afford to keep up the number of dockyards we have to-day. I referred to this matter in the discussion on the main Estimates, and I have been extraordinarily disappointed not to have heard some statement of policy prior to the introduction of these Supplementary Estimates. I feel that some of the money we are asked to vote to-day is due to these redundant dockyards which are kept going simply in order to find something for the men to do. Dockyards have grown up one by one in various wars in days gone by. The Dutch war produced Chatham. The German War produced Rosyth. The next war will not be in the North Sea or in the English Channel. The danger zone is not there, and money spent on superfluous yards is being kept away from purposes which would be of more advantage to the nation. I venture to say that the Admiralty are open to the gravest censure—I am not blaming the right hon. Gentleman opposite—for not having made up their minds as to the dockyards which should be done away with. I am not going to suggest which should be dropped. Some will have to go. It is unfair to the men to keep them working on half-time and is unfair to the country to go on spending money on them. I hope before the main Estimate is submitted next year we shall have had announced a settled policy on this question.

There is one further word to be said on this point. Private dockyards have been found to be excellently fitted for repairing and building ships. During the War practically every private yard was employed on the most intricate naval work. The only big ship that was torpedoed at Jutland was taken into a private yard and the repairs were admirably carried out. All the destroyer work on the North-East Coast was done in a small private yard at Hull. Therefore it is unnecessary to keep going redundant yards so long as our great shipbuilding industry remains with us; it will always be of great value to the Fleet. I propose to move to reduce Vote 8, and I hope I shall have the support of every true economist and every true well-wisher of the Navy for the reasons I have given. There is nothing more demoralising to the Service than to see money spent and men employed on unnecessary and inefficient service. It has a bad effect on the moral of officers and men. Everyone who has the true welfare of the Navy at heart should support the reduction which I am moving.

There is one other detail I must mention in this connection. I made inquiry about the purchase of land and buildings under Vote 10, and the right hon. Gentleman was good enough to tell me it was for Inverkeithing, a submarine base in the Firth of Forth. I really cannot express my astonishment at finding that we are still spending money on submarine bases there two years after the German fleet went to the bottom at Scapa Flow. Do the Admiralty still think that the next war is going to be fought in the North Sea? While they are spending money on land and buildings in an industrial part of Scotland, and building a submarine base which is not wanted, the danger spot, which will be in the East, at Singapore, is having nothing spent on it. That is where we want money spent on submarine bases, because Singapore in a future war will be the great strategical basis. Whoever is responsible for the expenditure to which I am referring ought to be sacked from the public service. I can see the inevitable effect of this policy. There will be a panic about finance, and then we shall be unable to get money which is essential for the Navy. I appeal to hon. Members on the Labour Benches who may be responsible for the service in the future and may then find themselves unable to get money, to support my Motion. Some of us had experience before the War of the difficulty of getting money for essential purposes for the Navy even with the British Empire rich. We shall have still more difficulty after the War when perhaps this country is almost bankrupt. If it is necessary to spend money on another submarine base in this country I venture to say that the West Coast of Scotland is more suitable than Inverkeithing. The reduction I propose to move could be very effective without in any way reducing the efficiency of the Navy; in fact, I assert it would increase it.

6.0 P.M.

What on earth have we been doing during this summer in spending money on the mystery towers at Shoreham? They made a fine film for the kinema and caused a great sensation for holiday makers during the summer. I believe they cost about £100,500,000. But I do not know what experiments were carried out from them that could not have been carried out from Eddystone lighthouse or from any cliff or high land near deep water, or from the Spithead forts. These great floating towers have been taken into the Solent and I believe we are now carrying out experiments affecting submarines by hydrophone. I say it is a wicked waste of money. This is an example of a service being kept on in order to provide jobs for people, which is a very unfair thing to do in the present state of the country's finances. I do not know what sort of case the Naval Staff made out for these experiments, but I can imagine the sort of case that the dockyard staff made out, and I am much disappointed that, things being as they are, the Admiralty listened to the case, whatever it was. I hope that hon. Members will support me in this Motion, because, as long as the Admiralty think they are going to be immune from criticism here, we shall get no further. We shall simply go on until the financial crash comes, when the Admiralty will be worse off than ever. I repeat that I do not move this reduction in any spirit of personal hostility to those at the Admiralty, or in any spirit of hostility towards the Service, but in the interests of efficiency and in the general interest of the taxpayer. Savings can be made to this amount and more by cutting off redundant and unwanted services. A great deal of these Supplementary Estimates is due to the old trouble at the Admiralty, namely, the lack of a defined and clear policy.

I desire to join in the expressions of regret that the First Lord of the Admiralty is not here. At the same time, his absence gives the Parliamentary Secretary the opportunity which he desires, and I do not think that anyone in the Committee would regret it from that point of view. I do not suppose that anyone in the Committee would negative any real scheme of economy which bore any relation to the necessities of the present day. Many of us may have heard the pleasant, or in some cases unpleasant, music of the "Jazz Band," but I do not think that any hon. Member is moved in the very slightest from the course that he has proposed to take by music of that kind, whether it comes pleasantly or unpleasantly to his ears. Personally, on the question of the Navy, I would give my last penny, and would squeeze the last penny out of the nation, so that the Royal Navy should be kept in a state of absolute efficiency and preparedness. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) truly said, it was, under Providence, the Royal Navy that gave us the victory in the recent most appalling War. If we had not hand that Navy in a reasonable state of efficiency—no one, of course, would pretend that it could not have been more efficient—we should be in an infinitely worse position than Germany is in now. I hope that we shall see justice done before very long to the older officers of the Navy, even as justice has been done to the older officers of the Army—I mean especially in relation to their pensions.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton referred to the fact that the German Navy is at the bottom of the sea, but that is already ancient history, and has very little to do with keeping up the efficiency, although it may have something to do with keeping up the numbers, of our Navy. There is no economy in inefficiency. With regard to the dockyards—and I say at once that they interest me only a little less than the Navy itself—the right hon. Gentleman thought that men were being kept on in the dockyards in order to avoid giving them the dole. I do not think that any hon. Member who knows anything about the dole would for a moment say that he would not prefer honourable employment in a dockyard to the giving or taking of the dole. I have seen a good deal of the working of the dole, and in a large place like Portsmouth it must have a demoralising effect. High-class work can never have such an effect on any man. The dole is a thing which we were, apparently, obliged to bring in, but I am sure that everyone regrets that we had to bring it in, while I am equally certain that no one regrets that good, honest work, which is to the advantage of the nation, can be provided in the dockyards. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton and also the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) seemed to think that we should get rid of some of our dockyards. That plan is an old one. I must admit, as representing the premier dockyard—

My hon. Friend represents a minor dockyard, though he can call it what he likes. As representing not only the senior, but the premier dockyard, I would mention that the pro- position was made to the Admiralty much earlier in this year that certain yards should be leased or sold, and that only three, or at most four, of the great dockyards should be retained as naval ports, and naval ports only. In the case of Portsmouth, it has been decided again and again by the Admiralty that it is only suitable for navy work. They will not admit commercial ships, and do not care to admit commercial building. There are people who think that, if we could have one or two places such as Devonport on the South Coast, one or two on the East Coast, and one in Ireland, that would be sufficient. Undoubtedly it would be a saving, and would supply work for all the men who are now in the present dockyards. I am afraid I cannot see the selling of the dockyards, because there might not be sufficient money to buy them, but I can see no great objection to leasing some of them. I would specially emphasise the case of Chatham—I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for that constituency is not here—because it is near London, and we might there have a London yard such as we had not very many years ago, building civilian vessels—in fact, every kind of vessel but naval vessels—and also repairing them. Chatham is admirably suited for that work. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton said that the dockyards cannot compete with private firms, but I think that that is entirely wrong. The work at the Royal Dockyards, of course, is super-excellent and superfine. It is finer than the work that, perhaps, is usually required on civilian vessels, certainly from private dockyards; but I am sure that, if it were put to the men of the Royal Dockyards, they would beat the private yards, not only as regards work, but also as regards cost. My right hon. Friend said that there were 20,000, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other night said that there were 16,000, more men in the Royal Dockyards than there were before the War, and my right hon. Friend thinks, therefore, that there are 16,000 men too many. That is possible, and if, immediately after the War, it had been said to every sound man who came to those dockyards without having done military service, that he was not now required, and was expected to return to the place from whence he came, there would have been no trouble. The men themselves would have raised no objection, and we should not now have that superfluitiy of men in the dockyards.

Would it not be for the convenience of the Committee, in order to put the hon. Member's remarks in order, that we should put this question to the vote? I take it that at present we ought to confine ourselves to this particular Section of Vote 8.

It is quite correct that we are now discussing Vote 8, but that is a very important Vote, amounting to £1,829,000, and I think that the hon. and gallant Member is quite in order at present.

On that point of Order. May I ask—I am rather rusty on these points—whether it is not the case that, even if this is disposed of, we are only at liberty subsequently to discuss Votes which are subsequent to Vote 8?

That is quite correct. The Question having been put from the Chair, it would not be in order at any subsequent stage to discuss any preceding item. What would be in order would be to continue the discussion of Section III, and other subsequent items.

I take it that your ruling is that all discussion outside Section III of Vote 8 is now ruled out of order?

Then it will be in order to discuss items 9, 10, 11 and 12, but I can no longer refer to anything that was stated by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Molton?

I think that if my hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) had proposed to reduce Vote 12 he might have carried more of us with him than in proposing to reduce Vote 8. But even had he done so I think the answer of the Financial Secretary is sufficiently conclusive to allow the Government a very large majority even on that Vote. I wish to say a few words of Vote 14—Pensions and Gratuities.

I did not say that on the present Amendment to reduce Section 3 of the Vote for contract work we can go on discussing subsequent Votes. What I said was that we could discuss the subsequent Votes when we had disposed of this reduction, but after we have disposed of this reduction we cannot go back. Now we are only discussing the reduction of Section 3 of the Vote for contract works.

May I make a suggestion which will perhaps assist the Committee? If my hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) will acquiesce in it, I suggest that you put the Motion to reduce at once from the Chair, and that that could be negatived, and then the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Sir B. Falle) could proceed with his remarks on what is left of the subsequent items on this Vote and of the remaining Votes in this Supplemental Estimate.

I am quite in the hands of the Committee as to whether I put the question now. If I put it, it means that all the Votes mentioned, down to Vote 8, have been disposed of, and we can only then go on discussing Vote 9.

May I appeal to the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Lieut.-Com-mander Kenworthy) to withdraw his Amendment?

May I be permitted to withdraw? I did not know it had this effect.

That would not make any difference in the Supplementary Estimates. We had better go on discussing the Vote before us and the reduction that has been moved. It includes a comprehensive Vote for contract work, including A, B, C, D, G, I, K, and KK, and that seems to give ample opportunity for hon. Members to say what they wish to say.

I should like to say a word on the question of naval yards abroad. The men in the naval yards at Hong Kong are very much dissatisfied, especially over the question of the exchange, and I should be very glad if the right hon. Baronet would make a note of that point so as to relieve anxiety. With regard to Simonstown the local men are paid more than the men who are sent out from England and that is a point which they think savours of blacklegging. Recently two local men in receipt of very large wages have been discharged, perfectly naturally from the Admiralty point of view, because two established men had gone out to Simonstown on less wages. Also, they say the local men pay no Income Tax, but I understand by a recent decision of the Government that all men in Government appointments will pay tax wherever they may be, so that that objection fails.

The Financial Secretary made a statement as to the Royal Naval Reserve Vote.

If the hon. and gallant Gentleman can bring the Royal Naval Reserve under contract work, it will be in order, but not otherwise.

Then I see no way out of it. Therefore I will go straight on to the Admiralty office. It is a matter of common knowledge that the Admiralty staff, both naval and military, are overworked. They are under-staffed on both sides. There is no time for anyone to sit down and think. The whole of their time is occupied with routine work. I frankly welcome the increased staff of the Admiralty. On the civilian side it is absolutely essential owing to the increased duties they have had to undertake, and on the naval side it is still more welcome to me because, though I do not believe in having a naval staff which consists of the first three Lords and everyone in the Admiralty without the charwoman, as some people do, I believe in having a properly organised staff working under a co-ordinated Department, and holding that view, I am glad to see that there are a large number of naval officers now employed at the Admiralty, and I am quite certain the work they produce will be of great benefit to the State. I only regret that it has not been found possible to reorganise the staff, to put the Royal Naval Reserve under the second Sea Lord, and to put their mobilisation and training into the hands of the Director of Mobilisation and the Director of Training. I regret that we have not been able to join the Royal Naval Reserve officers under the same organisation as that for Royal Naval officers. We still retain the obsolete arrangement under the Coastguards and Reserves. I cordially agree with the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lambert) in what he said about the dockyards. I think the question should be looked at, having got the Admiralty view, because it then becomes a matter of policy, but we have our experiences on these lines. Anyone who goes down the Thames finds a large dockyard at Deptford and a still bigger one at Woolwich. In the French wars and earlier they used to be some of our principal dockyards. By the efflux of time they have been closed. How it was done without upsetting the whole population I do not know, but if it has been possible to do it in the past I feel that we can tackle the same problem at present. With every desire to prevent unemployment, there is plenty of competition by private firms.

I regret that the First Lord is unable to be with us to-day. I am sure from what I know of him that he much regrets it, as does every Member of the Committee, but if he had been here I think he would have joined with us—and I speak, I think, on behalf of all Members of the Committee—in congratulating the Financial Secretary on the very able statement he has presented. He has also given us a statement with regard to the Reserves which has met with very general approbation, and as he said he desired criticism on that point to be postponed, and as I should not be in order in doing it now, I will postpone anything I have to say about the Reserves till another occasion. We had another very excellent statement with rgard to the staff at the Admiralty, which I think must disarm criticism in every quarter. It was clear from what my right hon. Friend said that the staff, although it is much larger than before the War, is absolutely and entirely necessary. It is also true that it is more or less a temporary staff and in course of time we shall come back to the numbers we had before the War. We also have to thank him for the very excellent notes. It is the first time I have seen them, and they have certainly enabled every Member of the Committee to understand the items in a way they have never done on previous occasions. We have always had to ask what a certain item meant, and why it was there? Now, if we read the notes, we do not have to do so, unless, like the right hon. Gentleman opposite, we are very anxious to see something wrong in order to have the pleasure of saying the Government are extravagant. Three times I have addressed the House in reply to what the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lambert) has said, and on those three occasions, unfortunately, he has been absent. I am now pleased to see that he is there. I regret the absence of the Leader and other members of the Labour party, who would have learned a great deal if they had had the opportunity of listening to the Debate.

The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lambert) said that before the War we spent £50,000,000 on the Admiralty Votes and now we are spending £90,000,000—a statement which caused him much perturbation and worked him up into almost a fury. He seemed to see in this £90,000,000 a most dreadful piece of extravagance. He did not, however, take into consideration, I am sure, that £l to-day is only worth 10s. Had he done so he would have seen, even on that ground, that the £90,000,000 and the £50,000,000 are about equal. Then he told us, as he has told us on three occasions, that the German fleet is at the bottom of the sea. We know it, and we do not need to be reminded of it by him. However, he thought we did not know it, and so he emphasised it again. Exactly what bearing that has upon the question of building ships I do not know. True, the German fleet, being at the bottom of the sea, may have something to do with Germany being an antagonist in future, but what we have to do is to keep the command of the sea, and see that this country is supreme. We have to defend our mecantile shipping routes all over the world, and in order to do that we must have a strong Navy. If the right hon. Gentleman's view is that because the German fleet is at the bottom of the sea we need not build, then I entirely disagree with him. He went on to say that the Estimates were abnormal. That was only a repetition of what he had said before; but I would remind him that we live in abnormal times. That is another matter which, apparently, he failed to appreciate. He then launched forth into his usual tirade against the dockyards. As he lives, and has his being so near to what I regard as the premier dockyard in this country, I should have thought that he would have known something more about the dockyards than he apparently does. I do not know whether, when he was Civil Lord of the Admiralty, the dockyards were under him. Perhaps the procedure now adopted at the Admiralty was not in force when he was there. If it had been he would have had some knowledge of dockyards, and the work done in the dockyards. With all due respect to him I say that at the present moment he has no knowledge of the work done in the dockyards. He then went on to say that he desired to see certain dockyards closed. He has said that before, and he has specified the dockyards that he wishes to close. He wishes to close Chatham. The hon. and learned Member for Chatham is here, and I think he dealt with the right hon. Gentleman in a way that he ought to be dealt with for suggesting that Chatham should be closed. If the right hon. Gentleman had suggested that Devonport should be closed, I know what I should have said. The right hon. Gentleman then went on to suggest that portions of the dockyards should be leased. We have had all that before a Committee, and it has been shown that it is not possible to lease portions of the dockyards.

The right hon. Gentleman went on to criticise the productive work done in the workyards, and he declared that the men kept on at the dockyards were not engaged on productive work. I beg to contradict him once more. They are engaged on productive work, and that is why they are there. When the Naval Estimates were brought in it was understood that men were to be discharged at the rate of 800 a week. Shortly afterwards we had the Colwyn Committee, which recommended the introduction in the dockyards of merchant shipbuilding. That was done in order that we might not have to discharge so many men. Pressure was brought on the Admiralty, and it was shown that the discharge of so many men from the dockyards was most unfair. A good many of the men had been there before the War, and the other men had gone there during the War. They had repaired the ships during the War, and they had built some ships which were used in the War. Therefore the Admiralty, taking these facts into consideration and the importance of not adding to the unemployment in the dockyard towns, very wisely adopted the conclusion arrived at by Lord Colwyn's Committee and started merchant shipbuilding in the dockyards. This merchant shipbuilding has been productive. Not only has it given these men a certain amount of employment, but it has shown to the country that we can produce in the dockyards merchant ships as quickly and as cheaply as they can be produced in private yards. The men in the dockyards are skilled men. They fully understand the work, and they are quite prepared to do their utmost to build merchant ships, just as they built naval ships during the War.

The right hon. Gentleman—I hope I misunderstood him, because it seems to be a most terrible thing to say—that he supposed the men did not perspire too freely. That is not a very elegant expression, but I can understand what he means. He meant that they did not work too hard. Let me tell the right hon. Gentleman and this Committee that the men in the Royal Dockyards work hard, and work well. During the War these men worked not only the ordinary hours of day, but they worked all night, and many a man from the dockyards is incapacitated to-day as a result of the hard work he did during the War. Now the right hon. Gentleman says that this ship-building does not pay. It does pay. The Financial Secretary will confirm me when I say that so far the building of the merchant ships in the dockyards has paid, and paid very well. Not only does it give work to a great number of men who otherwise would have to join the ranks of the unemployed, but in two months' time we shall have more men working on merchant shipbuilding, and more of these men whom the right hon. Gentleman regards as redundant will be engaged in the building of ships, which will bring money to the Exchequer, and relief to the taxpayers. I beg the right hon. Gentleman to consider these points. Very shortly we shall have 8,000 men in the Royal Yards building merchant ships on the present programme, and if this programme is acceptable we shall have more of these men employed. I do not know whether we should not be able to employ the whole of the 12,000 or 15,000 men, so that there will be no need for discharges and no need to throw men into the ranks of the unemployed. We are told that it is possible that a certain number of men in the dockyards will have to work half-time. If you make these men who are now building our merchant ships into half-timers, you will not get the merchant shipbuilding done as you are getting it done to-day, and it will not pay the State. Surely, it is better to go on building more merchant ships and to let the men work the whole time so that they may bring more money into the coffers of the State, and do better work for themselves. The right hon. Gentleman says "No." He would turn them out and give them doles. They do not want doles; they want work, and it it up to the Admiralty to find them work to do. I want the right hon. Gentleman to understand these points quite clearly so that he will not fall into the same error for the fourth time.

The right hon. Gentleman said he was exceedingly pleased that we had a thinking department at the Admiralty. I am glad we have a thinking department at the Admiralty. We have always had a thinking department at the Admiralty, although they have not always thought what the right hon. Gentleman thought. If there was more thinking on the Front Bench opposite we should not have the strange statements made such as the right hon. Gentleman has made to-day. When the Vote is taken I hope he will see the error into which he has fallen, and that he will go into the Lobby with us, and not join those few colleagues of his who, though they are not in the Chamber, are intending to vote against these Estimates. There are a few other things which I wanted to say, but I understand, Mr. Whitley, that they are not in order.

If I can get rid of the present Motion for the reduction of Vote 8, the Votes further in the list will be open, and the hon. Member can speak again if he has anything important to say on them.

I have something important to say, but I will postpone what I have to say until we have dealt with the Motion for the reduction of the Vote 8. It is very possible, after what I have said, that no reduction will be pressed.

A reduction having been moved on Vote 8, discussion must be limited to that, until we get rid of it. Perhaps it would be agreeable if I were to put that question now and dispose of it, unless there are other hon. Members who wish to address me on the question of Vote 8.

When this Motion on Vote 8 has been dealt with, will it be in order to refer to anything on Vote 8? There is a surplus on Vote 7. Will it be possible to talk about that after Vote 8 has been disposed of?

We have not come to Vote 7 yet, it is amongst the surpluses lower down. The question as to why there is a surplus on Vote 7, and the statement made by the Financial Secretary, will still be open, but a reduction having been moved on Vote 8 we cannot go backward in the list of Votes until we have disposed of it.

Perhaps I might make a statement which would influence hon. Members not to press the question of a reduction.

A reduction having been moved and certain criticisms having been made on the Supplementary Estimate, I submit that the Financial Secretary should answer the criticisms so that we may know how to vote. At the present time I am not clear how I can vote.

I understand it is not going to be pressed to a Division.

Question, " That Item Vote 8 (Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc., Section III. Contract Work) be reduced by £500,000," put, and negatived.

Original Question again proposed.

The first thing that struck me in these Supplementary Estimates was that on nine votes out of 15, increases are rendered necessary on account of the increased Civil Service war bonus. I should like to protest against the system of war bonus giving rise to such constant increases in the Supplementary Estimates. I have no idea what the total increase is on account of the Civil Service war bonus, and it would be very interesting if we could get the information. I should like to congratulate the last speaker (Sir C. Kinloch-Cooke) on the fact that he is now a very formidable advocate of nationalisation and of Government trading generally. On Vote 10, I should like to call attention to Sub-head G. This point was raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull. It deals with providing a submarine base at Inverkeith. I happened to be in that area when the scheme was started. Knowing nothing about it, I made inquiries to get to know what it was for. I wish to reinforce what the hon. and gallant Member said on the subject. I cannot understand why we are providing another submarine base at Rosyth or on the North Sea, or what plan the War Staff can possibly have adopted to justify such a base. Had it been provided at Singapore or on the west coast of Ireland, I could have understood it; but to provide another submarine base on the Firth of Forth pretty nearly opposite Port Edgar, the destroyer base, and a very short distance from Blyth, is a policy which I cannot understand. The project was only just started before the Armistice, and I cannot understand why it could not have been dropped. The work could not have proceeded too far at that time, and an immense amount of work had to be done. It was a little harbour, which was almost dry at low water, and the whole thing had to be dredged up. Whether there is any danger, as there is at Port Edgar, of silting up I do not know. I hope that there will be a further explanation as to why this work was proceeded with, and what is the meaning of the policy of providing another submarine base on the North Sea.

In reference to Vote 7, the Parliamentary Secretary gave us full details of the Admiralty proposals with regard to the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. They have waited long months during which reconstruction committees have sat, and they have pressed the Admiralty for information; but none has been forthcoming. We have seen some of our best men getting thoroughly disheartened and dropping off, or some of our best potential recruits going in other directions. The Financial Secretary stated that it was impossible to go ahead with the actual proposals of the Admiralty. They addressed themselves rather more to the improvement of headquarters. This statement I regard as distinctly fallacious. I speak from first-hand knowledge of my own particular case. It is a very small one, but the Financial Secretary did allude to it. For nearly 18 months repeated applications have been made to the Admiralty to put certain buildings in order; in fact, to plug up holes in the roofs so that the water would not come through. Deterioration has been proceeding at an ever-increasing rate, and the value of the property, all Admiralty property, has been greatly depreciated. Nothing has been done, and the ultimate cost of putting these buildings in order will be very much greater than if the matter had been tackled efficiently at the beginning. I believe that there is a Department of Civil Engineering at the Admiralty. I only wish that I could say something sufficiently bad about it. To delay putting these buildings in order is an absolute scandal, and eventually the repairs will cost a great deal more.

As to the actual schemes for the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, I will not indulge in criticism, although I know most of the details, but I have no doubt that the matter requires further consideration. There are, however, one or two points to which I may refer. Apparently, it is considered that both branches of the service should be administered by committees. I mistrust committees. I hope that the Admiralty will insist that these committees shall not be, as they were before the War, more or less sinecures, but that they shall meet frequently. The former committees practically never met and were of no use at all, whereas committees which work properly can be of great use. The hon. Gentleman said that the Royal Naval Reserve officers will be allowed facilities to keep themselves in touch with the Royal Navy. I hope that he will be able to assure us that the same privilege will be extended to the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve officers. They are just as anxious to make themselves efficient for their work as the Royal Naval Reserve and keep in touch with the Navy in everything, and practice going to sea, and I hope that the same opportunity will be afforded to the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, both attached and unattached, as is given to the Royal Naval Reserve. The hon. Gentleman also said that Royal Naval Reserve officers were going to be selected to specialise, I suppose, both in gunnery and torpedoeing, and possibly navigation and signalling as well. A great deal of care should be devoted to the selection of officers so selected, because no doubt the Royal Naval Reserve would be required on the outbreak of war to keep the large lines going, and I hope that a lot of money will not be wasted training officers who will not be able to take up active work in the Royal Navy on the outbreak of war.

Will the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, when they go to sea, or when they are paid as officers or men of the Royal Navy, be paid progressive pays at the same rate as officers and men of the Royal Navy, or at some other rate? I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be able to assure us that no difference will be made in the pay of Royal Naval Reserve and Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve officers and men when they are called up and service men of equivalent rank. The hon. Gentleman said that the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve should consist of not less than 5,000 men. I hope that that does not represent the absolute maximum. It is the cheapest Reserve which the Navy has. The Navy will require every man that it can get on the outbreak of war. If the figure is limited to 5,000 men, very little opportunity will be provided for expansion in areas where it could be easily expanded. I hope that the system of bounties does not, particularly in the case of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, differ from that of the Territorial Army. It is a most important point in regard to recruiting. The first thing every recruit will ask is, " What do I get? " He will be told, and he will institute a comparison in his mind between the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve and the Territorial Army or the Yeomanry—I do not know whether it is the same thing or not—and it will operate very hardly, and will make recruiting in some cases almost impossible, if the scale of bounties is any worse than that of the Territorial Army. We do not want to have it any better, but we want equal terms.

As to Vote 12, " Admiralty Office," I concur entirely with the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lambert) when he said that the Admiralty had not got to-day the same people as they had before the War. Not only that, but we are shortly, I hope, going to see the end of the Ministry of Shipping. I would ask whether the Transport Department of the Ministry of Shipping will not have to continue, so far as the Admiralty are concerned, as it was before the War, as the Transport Department, and if the Ministry of Shipping is transferred to the Admiralty, will not certain members of the staff of the Ministry of Shipping go with it, which would lead to a further increase of staff unless the work can be absorbed by the, existing staff at flu, Admiralty? There are other Departments. The Air Department is now under the Air Ministry. I hope that we shall see a reduction of the staff in the Admiralty, as I think it is three times as large now as it was before the War, which is very high. I hope that we may have a definite assurance that the staff will be decreased progressively as time goes on.

May I join with other Members in regretting the absence of the First Lord of the Admiralty and in expressing very heartily the hope that we shall soon see him back among us. I must compliment my hon. and gallant Friend on the way in which he has implemented the promise which he and the First Lord gave last year, that futures Estimates would contain as much additional information as it was possible to obtain.

My right hon. Friend should bear in mind that it was he who suggested it.

7.0 P.M.

I had rather forgotten that in my gratitude for what has been done. I would point out to the Committee and to the Members of the Government what a saving of time it is and how much it adds to the business character of the discussion. My hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Commander Ken-worthy) as an experienced Member on this side knows that it is much more diffi- cult to raise a rather futile opposition when full particulars are given than when no particulars are given. Any Opposition worthy of its charge can waste much more time when no information is given than when information is given. I hope that hint will not be lost upon those Members of the Government who have to present the Estimates. There are just two or three points I would like to emphasise. The first is this, the Estimates which are shown here do not show what the real position is unless Members look at page 10. The total Estimates for this year have been brought up by the Supplementary Estimates to a sum of £105,283,281 and the real Supplementary Estimate is not £6,500,000 but £8,693,100. The difference between the two is by the appropriations-in-aid and I agree by some saving. Most of these appropriations-in-aid are windfalls which no business man for the moment can reckon upon in his Estimates as to what he has to meet in the next year. By way of illustration of that, if the Committee care to look at Vote 6 they will see exactly what I mean. The increase there is only £2,600, but the real increase is £27,600. This has been brought down to the total of £2,600 because of the unexpected sale of new charts. There are many reasons for the large increase in the sale of charts because the sea is now open after the War and merchant vessels are renewing the charts which have been lost, and so forth.

That is the real cost of the Navy to the country. I say again what has been said in this Committee by Members from all parts of the House that the Navy is costing an unnecessarily large sum, and further that without any real lessening of its efficiency—I should be the last man to do anything which would bring that about, and I have never hesitated in any speeches I have ever made to place the maintenance of that service in the front line of the nation's defensive position—but without any real slackening of efficiency I am quite certain, notwithstanding the efforts already made—and I give full credit and I do not retract one word from what my hon. and gallant Friend said about his own Department—which, with other Departments, has done very good service—that there is an immense amount of work still to be accomplished. Large and sweeping reductions can still be made. I am not satis- fied with the very fair account which my hon. and gallant Friend gave of the position at the Admiralty, where there are still three times as many employed at the headquarters compared with pre-War.

I am quite aware of that, but I am sure that these temporary officials can by a determined House of Commons be very swiftly reduced if the necessary efforts are made. There is one statement made by my hon. and gallant Friend which gave me a considerable amount of uneasiness. It was a casual remark, and I want him to amplify it in his reply. In stating there was an account of 219 accountants and clerical assistants he said, " They are effecting a saving for the country in the accounts with which they deal of a sum estimated at no less than £245,000 a month." Multiply that by 12 months, that brings it to £2,940,000, £3,000,000 in rough figures, which they estimate to save by the examination of accounts. That means one of two things, perhaps a bit of both—that there is a great deal of dishonesty going about in connection with Admiralty training, or very gross carelessness. That it is possible, in checking accounts coming in and out of the Admiralty, to detect errors at the rate of £245,000 a month shows that there is a big leakage somewhere. If that is going to be pressed through with the utmost vigour, I for one do not make any objection to these 219 accountants and their clerical assistants. It is a little sidelight on the position to which the nation's finances as a whole have got into, and for this reason I have always held, and still hold, that, with regard to the issuing of contracts and the general expenditure of the nation's money, the Admiralty, on the whole, has been at least as good as any other Department—I should say the most efficient of all the spending Departments. If it is possible for the Admiralty to be in that position, what must be taking place in other Departments not nearly so efficiently run?

There is one other point with which I would like to deal on Vote 9. I would draw my hon. and gallant Friend's attention again to what my right hon. Friend very lightly touched upon, and that is in the note, the last paragraph but one, in which it says:

The position cannot be over-estimated in its gravity and seriousness. I press it upon my hon. and gallant Friend, and I know when I am appealing to him from what he has done in his year of office that I am appealing to a kindred spirit on this point. I know he is seriously anxious, but of course he is in the grin of great Departments. It is impossible for him to reverse this great spending machine. He must have behind him the express determination of this House. It is the only way he can do it. We can fling hard words at him or encourage him. He cannot do it by himself, but if he is armed by the determination of the Committee of the Whole House expressing, as it does when it works well, the really main fundamental foundation of this House—control over national finances—why then he is equal to any Department and so is any other Minister. It is a matter not alone for the back bench or this bench, but it is a matter for the Whole House to take in hand. If it does that seriously and earnestly, I am quite certain the Army and Navy Estimates and all of them will present a very different appearance next year.

I, for one, am delighted to speak on behalf of this increase of the staff at the Admiralty, because it means that the men are getting their prize money a little more quickly; but even with the increased staff they arc not getting it quite quickly enough. Yesterday I came across a poor woman whose only son and support was lost on a minesweeper, and she has not yet got her money. I am for making a few more appointments at the Admiralty if such action will hurry matters. As to the marriage allowance, if any increase of the staff is intended to deal with that, I say that you cannot spend enough on it. One of the disgraces of the service is that a lower deck man has not been recognised as a married man. As long as the State allows that extraordinary condition to continue you could not complain of the saying that Jack had a wife in every port; he certainly had no encouragement from the Government to keep one in his home port. That is a shocking thing, and I am delighted to hear that the increase in the staff will help on the marriage allowance. There is also the question of an increase in pay in the Navy, from top to bottom. Even now, with their increased pay, there are tragic cases among warrant officers and other officers. I am delighted that the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull was not accepted, because at Plymouth to-day the hardships caused even by the threat of discharge from the dockyards should make the Government think twice about acting recklessly in deference to the cry of waste. There is waste in a great many things, but I do not think there has been great waste in the Navy.

I would like to offer my thanks to the Parliamentary Secretary for the statement he made in regard to the Reserve. For more than two years, since the Armistice, we have been waiting and working under very great difficulties. I wish to bear out what my Noble Friend (Viscount Curzon) has said with regard to the difficulties with which we have been contending in the organisation of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. With no definite scheme for the future it has been extremely difficult to retain the interest of those old hands who survived the War. After the Parliamentary Secretary's statement, which I hope will be issued in a fuller form as soon as possible, I hope we may start to build up as good a force as we had at the outbreak of war. A minimum of 5,000 was mentioned in the statement. I hope it will be always regarded as a minimum. The Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve can claim to be the cheapest form of Reserve on which the Navy can call, and, as was proved during the War, it is by no means the least efficient. I wish to ask the Parliamentary Secretary a question as to the surplus of £13,000 on the Naval Volunteer Reserve Vote. He has stated that the money would be devoted this year to the equipment of headquarters instead of to the payment of personnel. My hon. Friend told me before the Recess that a floating headquarters had then been approved, and that one of His Majesty's ships would be especially equipped for the London Division. Can he give me any information as to what steps have been taken to equip such a vessel?

I am glad of that assurance. The ship I had in mind was laid up in Queenstown Harbour, and it would be necessary to tow her round to the Thames in order to equip her. The fitting out would take six or eight months, and in the meantime the London Division is really without a headquarters. The old headquarters has practically been condemned by the Civil Engineer Department of the Admiralty, owing to the state of the roof and the walls, which make it unsafe for the drilling of a large body of men.

I hope that one result of this Debate will be that we shall get rid of the fiction of net Estimates. I wish to ask a question. Do the Appropriations-in-Aid represent savings on the particular Votes, or are they Appropriations from the general savings on the Navy Estimates? If hon. Members will turn to page 5, Vote 8, they will find an Appropriation under J and Appropriations-in-Aid under L. Under L there is £1,450,000. That could not have been saved on the three items K I, III and IV, fuel, lubricating oils, etc., to the stocks of which increases have been made. Are the Appropriations-in-Aid taken from the general body of the Vote? If so, we are getting rather fictitious Estimates. We are concealing the fact that we are making large increases of fuel supplies, and quite rightly too. I believe that the Cabinet would be quite justified in turning to the Admiralty and saying, "You, like other people, must live on your capital and get your savings on these Votes in order to pay for these Supplementary Estimates."The Government ought to face all this extra expenditure by asking whether the charge is vital. It should not be enough to know that it is merely useful; it must be vital to the safety of the country.

If we had our war staff and our administrative staff reviewing all the items of Naval expenditure they could find many things that could be saved, in cases of which they could pay their way. Several hon. Members opposite have mentioned various items which could have been taken into review. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull mentioned the yachts. They ought to be scrutinised by the administrative staff with the idea of ascertaining whether they are really necessary. Then there is the question of hospitals. We have Naval and Military hospitals jostling each other at many ports. For the life of me I cannot see why the surgical staff for the Army and the Navy and the Air Force should not be one and be run together. At Hongkong, for instance, you find Naval and Military hospitals, and at the dockyards you will find them. Why should not the medical and surgical staffs be amalgamated and great savings be effected? There are also Military bakeries as well as Naval bakeries. Next there are the questions for the war staff to consider. Any efficient war staff must devote its mind to economy, for it is part of efficiency. If you look back at the history of this country, you find that Nelson's captains prided themselves on their economies, on the way they saved spars and sails, and on the way they kept their ships out of dockyard hands. If the war staff were to scrutinise various questions, money could be saved.

For instance, there is the question. of the "Highflier," the flagship on the East India station. I cannot understand why we maintain a separate station there and why the China and East India stations could not be amalgamated. There was great overlapping during the War and friction between the two stations, and there would be a gain in efficiency by their amalgamation. The war staff should scrutinise the dockyards. Is Hong Kong really a necessary dockyard for the Navy to maintain at the present time? The dockyard would still exist if in private hands. The Hong Kong Government has an overflowing Treasury and it wishes to buy the dockyard. By and by that money will have gone to other purposes. Why not face the situation now? The same question applies to Chatham dockyard. The Port of London Authority would like to buy it and to use it for landing timber and other purposes, and a very substantial price could be obtained.

I hardly think that the Navy has received quite fair treatment in regard to its civilian chiefs. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Lambert) mentioned that we had had four successive First Lords of the Admiralty. At the very moment when we have to pass from a war to a peace footing we are given three new chiefs, able men, but they had to learn all their business. I infinitely regret, in common with every other Member of this House, that the present First Lord should have had the misfortune to be ill for a long time and therefore away from his duties. I wish him a speedy recovery of health, but I must strike one guarded note in regard to this matter. Is it fair to the Navy or fair to the country or fair to the House to have a civilian Chief of the Navy who is long absent from his duties by reason of illness?

I did not know that these Supplementary Votes admitted of such a speech. For that reason I have not risen hitherto. I would like a ruling as to how far the speech to which we are listening is in order.

I was listening to the hon. Member. He was giving historical illustrations, but I understood that the basis of his remarks was Vote 12, the increase of £374,700 for the staff of the Admiralty. If he bases his remarks on that he will be in order.

That is precisely my point. If we are to get economy, civilian chiefs must give constant attention to the Admiralty and must be present at the Admiralty. Deeply as I deplore the illness of the First Lord, I cannot forget that there are other branches of administration, and that he devoted his entire attention for a time to the Government of Ireland Bill, though through no fault of his own.

The salary of the First Lord is not on this Vote, which is for the technical and other staffs. The First Lord's salary is carried on the main Vote for the year.

I was concluding my remarks. The First Lord controls all these questions of the staff, and it is very essential that at this time, when we are passing from a war to a peace footing and immense sums have to be cut down, the First Lord, the civilian Chief, should give his sole and undivided attention to the question.

I wish to express my profound regret at the concluding portion of the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend (Commander Bellairs). The First Lord of the Admiralty is a member of the Government who always attends to his duties with the greatest diligence, and who has great experience, and I regret sincerely that the mere fact that the right hon. Gentleman has been absent for a few weeks owing to illness should be made the subject of adverse comment by my hon. and gallant Friend.

I should also like to enter a protest against the concluding remarks of my hon. and gallant Friend (Commander Bellairs). I must say that when the First Lord of the Admiralty is laid up by illness, as at the present moment, he requires everybody's sympathy, and I should have been better pleased if my hon. and gallant Friend had not made the remarks he did, especially in view of the fact that every item of the Estimates was examined by the First Lord in his bed before his signature was put to them. May I now thank my right hon. Friend (Mr. Lambert), who has left the Committee now for the very courteous way in which he met me with regard to the Estimates, and for the general tone throughout the whole Committee in allowing me to get them in such good humour and at the same time with such valuable criticism, because I can assure hon. Members that, although I do not intend at the present moment to answer all the points that have been raised, the OFFICIAL REPORT will be searched to-morrow with a view to picking out all the advice given and all the suggestions that have been thrown out, and wherever they can be acted upon that will be done. I would like to say a word in regard to one point, and that is the question of the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. I can only say that I did not wish to go further to-day than merely to outline the scheme for which the House and the country have so long waited, but as soon as ever it can be it will be launched, and I hope it will be as successful as it was in pre-war days.

Will my hon. and gallant Friend answer my question in regard to the Appropriations-in-Aid

My hon. and gallant Friend picked out one particular Vote with regard to oil. What happened is, that when we sell oil, which we have bought ourselves for the Navy, to merchant ships, it is only natural that, having bought it and being charged with it on our Estimates, when we sell it to merchant ships it should immediately appear as an Appropriation-in-Aid.

I am rather disappointed that the hon and gallant Gentleman did not deal with one part of my speech. With regard to Vote 9, we have great accumulations of all sorts, of stores, and I think it is too bad to ask now for an additional amount on this Vote alone of £1,648,400. I think it shows a lack of foresight by the staff and a lack of businesslike ability by the financial staff. In regard to Vote 10, and the submarine base at Inverkeithing, I think we might have had another word about that, as several of us think it is a luxury which we can well do without. The matter is surely important enough, in view of the financial situation, to call for a further explanation. Then I want to say a word about the mystery towers at Shoreham, and why we continue spending on them after the Armistice. I cannot see any real reason why we should get back anything like the value which has been put into these towers. The last point I want to ask about is on Vote 11, in regard to the hire, etc., of auxiliary vessels for service with the Fleet. Although the original Estimate was over £1,000,000, we are asked to-day for another £318,000. I gave my hon. and gallant Friend Private Notice of this point, and perhaps he will say a word about it. I understand it is largely for barges, but there seems to have been some extravagance there. I should also like to ask how much of Vote 11, for the conveyance of officers, is due to the conditions that have been operating in Constantinople and the Black Sea; and if the extra £400,000 covers any of the cost of our military and naval missions there. I think this Committee has a right to know. I must press my hon. and gallant Friend to give us the explanations for which I have asked.

I wish to make a few observations with regard to some of the speeches to which I have listened. My right hon. Friend the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) based his whole speech on the dockyards, and with regard to the large numbers at present employed in the dockyards I should like to make one suggestion. Rather than have these men discharged, I would suggest to my hon. and gallant Friend the advisability of handing over to the dockyards some of these merchant ships that have been hired during the War and have to be reconditioned back at the expense of the taxpayer. I think that would meet the present difficulties in the dockyards. Why should not some of these ships go to the dockyards rather than to private yards for reconditioning? My right hon. Friend also said, "Why could not we reduce the number of dockyards by three or four and lease them to private shipbuilders?" I should like to ask in regard to that, why are the private shipbuilders' yards practically closed down at the present time?

Perhaps the hon. Member was not in when that point was raised. Owing to the reduction of that Vote having been moved and dealt with, we are not entitled now to go back to it.

I was not aware of that, Sir. One statement was made in regard to the air, which, it was said, should be, under the control of the Admiralty, and with that I quite agree. On the latest battleships that have been built, there is an aerial deck erected, and I think that the Admiralty should have to some extent control of the air. In regard to the Committee which is about to be set up, I think this Committee is very necessary, and may I suggest to my hon. and gallant Friend the advisability of not only having on that Committee naval experts who have gained experience during the War, but that they should also gather experts from the private shipbuilding yards who have gained considerable knowledge, not only in the building of warships but in repairs. My hon. Friend the Member for Devonport (Sir C. Kinloch-Cooke) mentioned the question that in the dockyards not only shipbuilding but repairs could be carried out very much more cheaply than in private yards. I am sorry I do not agree with him, because in my experience during the War, not only of standard ships, but of battleships, the private yards could far beat the dockyards. The private yards could very much more cheaply turn out standard ships than the dockyards, and very much more quickly. There is another matter I would like to mention, and that is with regard to merchant ships that were engaged by the Admiralty during the War. I have two particular cases where officers lost their lives in the employment of these merchant ships, but when the question of compensation arose neither the Admiralty nor the owners of the ships accepted liability. I think that is a very regrettable state of affairs. I know of two cases to-day where the widow and orphan are not receiving a solitary farthing, although the ships were in the service of the Admiralty, but the officers were still within the pay of the owners. The owners refuse compensation, and I think something should be given by the Admiralty to widows of this sort arising out of the War.

Are we not going to have any reply from the hon. and gallant Gentleman?

I shall not detain the Committee at any length, but I have a long-standing controversy with the Admiralty. There is a custom in dockyard towns for a certain amount of work to be issued from naval barracks to be done by the widows and dependants of old naval ratings. It has been done for years and years, and has almost been looked upon as one of the prerogatives of widows and dependants of naval men. They have no pension and they are generally a class which is very poor. Suddenly, about 6 months ago, the work was stopped, and these women, not being in any way asked, being very poor, had no one to fight their case, and I have had a good deal of correspondence with the Admiralty, but so far nothing has been done at all. There is no use saying there is no work for them, because if you look in the " Labour Gazette," you will find Admiralty contracts, and there is undoubtedly abundant work to perform, but they are not getting it. It may be argued that this is a matter of economy, but I do maintain it is starting economy at the wrong end. Even if that argument be advanced, I must put before the hon. and gallant Member the fact that these particular women have never been asked at what price they would do this particular work.

I think, perhaps, my hon. and gallant Friend would care to know that I have a letter to send him which I think will satisfy him on this particular point.

I do not want to be in any way pressing, but could we have some reply from the hon. and gallant Gentleman? I really think that when notice is given by hon. Members that we intend to raise these points, some reply, at any rate, should be given by the right hon. Gentleman.

I assured the hon. and gallant Member that there is no discourtesy on my part.

What happened was that the hon. and gallant Member made his speech very fully, and then at the conclusion moved a reduction of the Vote, which cut out the possibility of my reply.

That is a matter of high policy. The hon. and gallant Member was very courteous, and I thank him for it, but he branches into a question of high policy, into which I am not prepared to go at this moment.

May I ask about the question of the towers at Shoreham as to which I gave notice? That question does not affect high policy, but expenditure.

I am not prepared to give very much information on the subject, but these towers were built for experimental purposes. One is gone now. I am not quite sure about the other one. Roughly speaking, however, all big expenditure has been stopped.

Question put, " That a sum, not exceeding £5,500,000, be granted for the said Service."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 52; Noes, 183.

Division No. 405.]

AYES.

(7.50 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

Hancock, John George

Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Finney, Samuel

Hayday, Arthur

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Glanville, Harold James

Hayward, Major Evan

Cairns, John

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Hirst, G. H.

Cape, Thomas

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Irving, Dan

Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

Grundy, T. W.

Johnstone, Joseph

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Kenyon, Barnet

Rendall, Athelstan

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Wignall, James

Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)

Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Myers, Thomas

Sitch, Charles H.

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Nall, Major Joseph

Spencer, George A.

Wintringham, T.

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

Swan, J. E.

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Mr. Hogge and Mr. G. Thorne.

NOES.

Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S.

Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

Mosley, Oswald

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C.

Foreman, Henry

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Forestier-Walker, L.

Murray, Major William (Dumfries)

Astor, Viscountess

Gardiner, James

Neal, Arthur

Atkey, A. R.

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Austin, Sir Herbert

Gilbert, James Daniel

Nield, Sir Herbert

Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A.

Ormsby-Gore, Captain Hon. W.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Grant, James A.

Parker, James

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Barker, Major Robert H.

Gretton, Colonel John

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Barlow, Sir Montague

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Perkins, Waiter Frank

Barnett, Major R. W.

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Pickering, Lieut.-Colonel Emil W.

Barnston, Major Harry

Hailwood, Augustine

Pratt, John William

Barrie, Charles Coupar

Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'pl,W.D by)

Prescott, Major W. H.

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Hanson, Sir Charles Augustin

Purchase, H. G.

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Rae, H. Norman

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H (Devizes)

Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

Bigland, Alfred

Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Billing, Noel Pemberton-

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Renwick, George

Blair, Reginald

Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Boles, Lieut.-Colonel D. F.

Hinds, John

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

Borwick, Major G. 0.

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Rodger, A. K.

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W:

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Hood, Joseph

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Breese, Màjor Charles E.

Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Briggs, Harold

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

Brown, Captain D. C.

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Hurd, Percy A.

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

Stanton, Charles B.

Carr, W. Theodore

Jephcott, A. R.

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)

Jesson, C.

Stewart, Gershom

Casey, T. W.

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin

Johnson, Sir Stanley

Sutherland, Sir William

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)

Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvll)

Taylor, J.

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Lianelly)

Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

Thomas-Stanford, Charles

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Conway. Sir W. Martin

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Tootill, Robert

Cope, Major Wm.

Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)

Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers

Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

Waddington, R.

Courthope, Major George L.

Lloyd, George Butler

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster. Ince)

Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid.)

Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P.

Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lort-Williams, J.

Watson, Captain John Bertrand

Curzon, Commander Viscount

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Whitla, Sir William

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Lynn, R. J.

Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)

Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

Dean, Lieut.-Commander P. T.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Donald, Thompson

Mason, Robert

Wilson-Fox, Henry

Doyle, N. Grattan

Meysey-Thompson, Lieut.-Col. E. C.

Wise, Frederick

Edge, Captain William

Middlebrook, Sir William

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West,

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Moles, Thomas

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath)

Molson, Major John Elsdaie

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M.

Younger, Sir George

Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.)

Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Falle, Major Sir Bertram G.

Morden, Colonel H. Grant

Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Air Supplementary Estimate, 1920–21

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,935,300, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for additional expenditure on the following Air Services, namely:—

£

£

Vote 1

Pay, &c, of the Air Force

306,850

Vote 2.

Quartering Store (except Technical) Supplies, and Transport

237,000

Vote 3.

Technical and Warlike Stores

2,748,700

Vote 5.

Air Ministry

70,009

3,362,550

Less Surpluses on:—

Vote 4.

Works, Buildings, and Lands

170,850

Vote 6.

Miscellaneous Effective Services

18,000

Vote 7.

Half-Pay, Pensions, and other Non-Effective Services

28,000

Vote 8.

Civil Aviation

473,300

Vote 9.

Experimental and Research Services

737,100

1,427,250

Net Amount

1,935,300

On a point of Order. May I ask, as these are complicated Estimates, what will be the procedure followed here? I take it there is only one Question, but are we competent to move a reduction, or how should we do it? There seem to be one or two matters on separate Votes entirely different from each other.

Exactly the same as on the preceding Vote. The total Vote is put, and hon. Members may move a reduction of any one of the items, of course, with the same rule, that we cannot go back. In that case the hon. and gallant Member must confine himself for the time being to the actual item, and subsequently to the items lower down on the Paper.

8.0 P.M.

There would have been no necessity to ask for this Supplementary Estimate for the Air Service this year, but for the fact that the Ministry of Munitions had a charge against the Air Ministry on account of their under-estimate of the cost of winding-up the War contracts of last year. This Vote involves no new charge on the State, no new disbursement by the Exchequer. It is a book-keeping transaction between Departments, and it is a book-keeping transaction concerned almost entirely with the finance, not of the present year, but of the year 1919-20. But for this, the Air Ministry would have shown a substantial surplus. The surplus would have been partly due to under-spendings which are to some extent involuntary—the slow development of building programmes, and so forth—and partly due to savings which have been the result of long and careful and laborious administration. We should have been in a position of paying back from £1,250,000 to £1,500,000 to the Exchequer at the end of the year. It is quite true that there are increases as well as decreases in the ordinary Air Ministry Vote, but the increases are much less than the decreases, and many of the increases are directly a result of alternative methods of doing the same thing in a cheaper way. Both the increases and the decreases would in ordinary circumstances have been covered by the usual Treasury power of moving one sum from one Vote to the other in the adjustment of the general Vote of the year. Tomorrow, on the Army Estimates, I shall have to ask for new money, more money than was provided in the Estimates, and a large sum more than the Exchequer has hitherto been liable for, but to-night I have not to ask for more money. The Air Service is in process of surrendering something like £1,500,000 already voted by Parliament, and it is only the system of our accounting which renders that process of surrendering £1,500,000 in the form of demanding an extra £2,000,000.

The financial record of the Air Ministry during the year will bear the strictest scrutiny. There is no Department in the State which can stand a more searching challenge or investigation. I will deal with the increases first. In July last it was decided to add five new squadrons to the strength of the Royal Air Force. These five new squadrons were considered necessary because of the state of affairs in the Middle East, and the need of having some kind of reserve which can be sent to a theatre in which danger threatened. These five new squadrons only cost five-eighths of what the other squadrons of the Air Force cost. The reason is simple. In creating the Air Force, first of all you have to have an enormous plant, great numbers of schools, highly technical schools of different kinds, research departments, factories, reserves of aeroplanes, and most important stores and organisation of all kinds. When you have got that finished, and not until you have it finished on a certain scale, do you begin to produce the squadron. Once you have got that overhead plant, or perhaps it would be more correct to say under-head plant, you can produce an extra squadron or two, or three, or four, or five without any proportionate increase in the size of the plant. May I take a similitude. You have to grow a tree. There are the roots, the stem, the branches. Whether you get thirty apples or thirty-five from that tree makes very small difference to the cost of the land on which the tree has grown, the manure and the fertilisers which have enriched the soil, and the labour which has pruned the tree. Therefore the addition of five squadrons to the Air Force does not necessarily mean an addition to the expenses proportionate to the strength and power.

Another item of increase has been the additional expense incurred through conditions in Mesopotamia, at Constantinople and in Ireland. In Mesopotamia you have had for many months conditions of actual war. We have had to double the number of air squadrons that were operating in that country, and they have been operating continuously over areas held by an enemy who would kill and torture any airman unfortunate enough to make an inadvertent landing. At Constantinople we have had to supply the Air Force which was necessary to assist the troops, not only of our country but of other countries, in holding that city pending the general settlement of Europe by the Supreme Council of the victorious Allies or by the League of Nations. In Ireland we have also incurred some expense, but not to a great extent. The third cause is the automatic increase in prices and wages and Civil Service salaries. All these are quite uncontrollable. We have to buy so much raw material, so much petrol, so much bread and meat, whatever it may be, and these commodities advance in value. We have no means or power of avoiding the cost which falls on our charges in consequence of them. The Civil Service Committee, which has settled the salaries of Civil servants, settled them on a basis which is a little more in accordance with the great increase in the cost of living, or, in other words, the great decline of the purchasing power of the sovereign. These increases also affect us as they affect all other Departments.

All these increases have been far more than off-set by the decreases. The decreases are twofold. There are, first of all, deliberate economies; secondly there are under-spendings. Throughout the year the need for the utmost frugality has been borne in mind. Personnel has been allowed so sparingly to the squadrons as to give rise to serious doubts whether efficiency and safety have not been impaired. The demobilisation of the remaining officers was accelerated to the utmost, the training of the Air Force Reserve has been postponed, requirements of material have been cut down to a minimum. The utmost use has been made of existing stocks. Repair services have been deferred wherever practicable. One of the most important features has been the revision of the building programme. The original intention was to house the Air Force properly in permanent buildings, and considerable sums of money were set aside and marked down year after year in the series of years we have before us for that purpose. The Air Force has no permanent habitation. It is not like the Army or the Navy, with bricks and mortar behind it. It has only these galvanised buildings put up during the War, and unless you believe the Air Force is a purely temporary episode in the history of war—which very few people who take an intelligent interest in the subject hold—it is essential they should have reasonable permanent habitations in which to dwell. We had planned a considerable programme of bricks and mortar, but we have enormously reduced that because it has been found that by a process of reconditioning a good many years' work can be got out of the temporary buildings. Therefore there have been considerable under-spendings, partly due to the change of policy in spending less money in the critical years and partly due to the failure of labour to complete the work.

We have also stopped, with great regret, all the long-distance experimental flights which were of such value in the development of the Service. But we felt that in a time of great financial stringency such as the present you could not say that they were absolutely indispensable. I think that I am justified in paying a tribute to the work which Sir Hugh Trenchard and the Under-Secretary, who has charge of the financial arrangements, have accomplished during the course of this year upon these Votes. Not only have we paid these extra sums I have mentioned—the five extra squadrons, the cost of the increase in prices, the cost of the warlike operations in Constantinople, Mesopotamia, and Ireland; not only have we discharged all that out of the ordinary Vote, but we were preparing to hand over to the Treasury—to be surrendered to the Treasury in reduction of the general liabilities of the State—a sum of approximately £1,500,000 from the money we took at the beginning of the year. I think it rather hard, when in fact we are giving back £1,500,000, that we should be forced, by the method by which our accounting system works, to appear to be taking £2,000,000 more. It is all due to our system of accounting, which has grown from time immemorial, which has descended to us from one great financial authority to another, and which is fortified on every side by Parliamentary precedent. We have in the usual financial statement no capital account, and any work, however necessary, however remunerative, however it may belong to one or other of the categories of expenditure—for instance, building up an invaluable oil reserve before the War—all that has to be borne by the annual revenue. Similarly, when the end of the War came we had no liquidation account into which the War assets could be paid and from which the War debts could be defrayed. As a result of the system which we pursued, which is a system based upon and closely involved with the whole history of the House of Commons at every stage, and with Parliamentary control at every stage and every particular, the charges of war have necessarily to be thrown upon the finances of the different Departments to whom they are assigned.

It is certainly hard—and it is a question I ask myself and I ask the Committee—whether it is altogether safe—I am not quite sure—when a Department laboriously, frugally, earnestly, honestly tries to save money as the Air Ministry have been striving to do all through this year—and I can testify to it, for I do not take credit for it myself—it has been entirely done by others—but knowing there has been unceasing effort to build up this service at a minimum cost, for everything has been scraped and skimmed, and strained, and winnowed in the interest of reducing to the lowest possible dimensions the charge upon the taxpayer—it is very hard when officials have been labouring in that way and have begun to take great pride in the fact that there is economy, that they have something to give back— and, after all, that is the idea you want to put before their minds to save something from the expenses! When they are going to hand it back to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it is, I say, very hard on them, when they are looking forward to being complimented on that rare experience nowadays of a public Department, not to have a single word of kindness or courtesy said about them in any portion of the public Press. When they are looking forward to this rare and almost unique experience suddenly to find themselves, while they have been saving hundreds and thousands of pounds, small sums here and there, by thrifty administration, to see all the fruits of their labours swamped by the enormous deadweight of charge descended upon them from the past and over which they have no control. It is disheartening.

At the same time there is no doubt that the financial system of the country, so long established, with the Parliamentary position behind it, could not possibly be changed or altered for the sake of a particular Department or of the officials of a particular Department, however hard the case may seem to be to them. Therefore we have to bear it. There is no doubt whatever that the method with which the Estimates are presented are strictly correct accounting. It is also undoubtedly misleading to anyone who reads it until it is explained. Anyone reading the paper, White Paper, which has been issued would think that we were over-estimating, that we were asking for large amounts out of the public purse, whereas, as a matter of fact, we are engaged in handing a surplus to the Treasury of a million and a half on the finances of the year. The only reason that we come before Parliament is that we are asking for a further sum arising out of the expenses for the winding up of the War contracts of the Ministry of Munitions last year, which sum is not going to be spent, but it is going to be handed over to the Ministry of Munitions by a bookkeeping transaction, credited to their account, and presented to the House of Commons as part of the general surplus of that Department when the end of the financial year is reached.

I have said that the £2,000,000 technically which I come to the Committee for is the result of an additional £3,250,000 used by the Ministry of Munitions for liquidating wartime contracts. Let me go back a little way. There is a poetic justice in the position in which I find myself. I was responsible as Minister of Munitions for the renewed decision about the liquidation of War contracts. When after two years or more this comes back it is as Air Minister that I may reflect with the poet that: bility for saying to my expert business men—and we had some of the best in the country helping us—" You must let them down by stages, you cannot fling the whole of these people on to the streets, you must get round the corner."They have since then addressed themselves to the liquidation of the war contracts. We had great financial liabilities in regard to these contracts. We had said to all these firms, " Come forward and help the Air Service; we will advance you money, and guarantee you this and that," and this industry was growing to enormous proportions as a result of these efforts of stimulation. They had contracts with us which we were obliged to honour. A very careful survey of the whole situation was made by the Ministry of Munitions and the Munitions Council of that date, and as a result, out of £162,000,000 worth of charges which were due to which we were committed, we escaped from £77,000,000 and we settled for £85,000,000. That took partly the form of compensation to people whose contracts were cancelled, and partly the form of taking delivery of certain engines from people whose work had gone on and had far advanced, and it was thought better to take the engines than pay compensation and incidentally ease the position of employment in this industry.

We settled for £85,000,000 altogether and we have taken delivery of approximately £23,000,000. Since the 1st of April, 1919, they may have taken some deliveries in between, but 1 have not the figures with me. Up to the 1st April, 1919, as far as the Air Ministry is concerned, we have taken deliveries of £23,000,000 worth of these engines. I want to explain how the situation arises, because to read the Estimates no human being would know what the situation was, although it is in the prescribed form and absolutely correct. The Estimate which the Ministry of Munitions gave us for liquidating the business after the 1st April, 1919, was £17,150,000 last year and £3,250,000 in the present year. We took £17,150,000 last year and we are taking in the Estimates this year the sum £3,250,000. In a great business of that kind it is very likely that there will be considerable variation, and the Ministry of Munitions now notify us that the charge for last year will roughly be £20,150,000 and the charges this year £3,500,000 instead of £3,250,000. Thus it will be seen that we have to provide £3,250,000 more to defray the liquidation of these war contracts. I have heard some outcry, I hope of a restrained character, at the misfortunes of a Department which had its economies swamped by these war charges; but we have taken this large proportion of engines, which are the best engines, instead of scrapping them and discharging the people.

We have paid £23,000,000 for engines we have received as part of the liquidation. If we had not taken delivery of them we should have had to pay the full compensation to the people who had risked their money and built factories in expectation of certain definite war contracts, and you could not have got out of it. So it is that on the whole we have to credit the Ministry of Munitions with approximately £3,250,000 on last year's Vote and for this year. I do not mind telling my right hon. Friend (Sir D. Maclean), who is a great financial expert, that I thought at one moment I should have treated this as an Excess Vote on last year's Estimate, and there are some financiers who may think that that might have been a defensive proposition. According to rule, however, it has been decided that we shall take a Supplementary Estimate, and that is what I ask the House for now.

I do submit that the Air Ministry, in spite of rising prices and war conditions, in spite of adding five squadrons, has succeeded in so administering its affairs during the year without any prejudice to the future that there would have been in ordinary circumstances a substantial surplus amounting to £1,500,000 to be surrendered to the Treasury in the general reduction of the capital liabilities of the State, but owing to the fact that we had to credit the Ministry of Munitions with the excess on the liquidation of war contracts last year amounting to £3,000,000 and with a liquidation of war contracts this year amounting to £250,000 there is on the other hand a deficit of £3,250,000. I am giving rough figures, and in the upshot I have to ask for £1,935,000. If the Committee will be so kind as to vote this money I shall not devote it to riotous expenditure and various small wars mother adventures of any sort or kind. All I shall do with it is to hand it over to my Noble Friend (Lord Inverforth) to, swell the capacious total of his abounding balance.

I am sure hon. Members will receive with satisfaction the concluding sentence of the statement just made by the Secretary of State for War. While, of course, we never imagined that any sum would be devoted by him to in any way mitigating the austerity of his own personal lot, we are pleased to know that no part of this money will be devoted to that extravagant side of his nature known as little wars. I confess at once that the position, as stated by the right hon. Gentleman, places this Estimate in a very different position, to my mind, than I thought it would occupy at the commencement of his speech. I am grateful for the very clear statement that has been made of what is a most complex position. My right hon. Friend, with paternal pride, spoke of the fact that he had nurtured the pinion. At the same time he has endeavoured to show us how he not only fashioned, but impelled, the steel. I find very great difficulty in taking up a proper attitude on this matter. The Supplementary Estimate, as in the hands of hon. Members, showed on paper quite a number of the votes which required more than was originally estimated for. To that extent it is not at all misleading. Take Vote 1. That is short by 498,850 of the original Estimate. That original Estimate in its gross total was £4,731,000. I would always advise hon. Members to neglect the net amount at the Appropriation-in. aid. The real thing is in the gross total. In this case the net amount was £4,661,000, and they ask for, in round figures, another half-million. The mitigation of that is that on the other Votes they have effected savings, and the net result of those savings, had they been allowed to stand, would have been that they would have been able to present the Exchequer with a matter of something like £2,000,000, which would have fallen into the Treasury. The main point which seems to me to come out of this is the creation of an additional five squadrons, and I understand the need for this was based on the necessities of the campaign in Mesopotamia, the military operations at Constantinople, and the additional requirements of our defensive forces in Ireland.

And the need for a general reserve which was much impressed upon us. These five squadrons are not yet in existence, It will take some time to make them ready.

At any rate, there would have been this reserve but for these calls from the Air Ministry. I do not know whether it is permissible on this Vote to raise the question of the operations in Mesopotamia, but, even if it were, I think that matter should be reserved for to-morrow's discussion, as it is undesirable to anticipate that Debate, which will necessarily involve the general question of policy. In so far as these economies have been effected, I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman's officers, and especially General Trenchard and the Under-Secretary. It is a satisfactory state of affairs, and when we find economies have been effected there should be a frank recognition of the work done. It is not an easy thing to achieve when things, unhappily, have been going full speed the other way, and it is certainly almost impossible to reverse or even seriously to pull down the steam. At any rate, I am very glad that the Ministry have got to grips with the spirit which this House and the country are desirous to see permeating the whole of the Services. They have effected some savings, not small ones, but savings the amount of which show that the right policy is there. It is not a mere attempt to make just a show. It proves that the policy is beginning to work.

Since my right hon. Friend has made reference to what took place a year or two ago in the Ministry of Munitions I want to say a sentence or two. It is not much use going back to the past unless you can deduce lessons for the present and the future. Recriminations do not amount to much in usefulness in the public service unless they are going to help us in days to come. I must say that the condition of things adumbrated in what my right hon. Friend has just stated constitutes one of the real scandals of the immediate post-War period. Apparently, there has been an endeavour mainly to save men from being thrown out of employment. The reins were thrown down, the Department ran riot, and it lead to such a state of affairs that on one occasion, near Bristol, men were at work actually constructing sheds at one end of a field while other men were destroying the work already completed at the other end. All over the country there was the most glaring evidence of a complete lack of control, while at the same time every department of industrial life outside was crying out for men. Employment could be had at high wages in almost every branch of industry, and at the same time, owing to this foolish and reckless policy, men were being held up, at immense cost, in wholly unproductive enterprise. As things stand, I do not suppose that I should be justified in moving a reduction, although the condition of affairs indicated by this Supplementary Estimate has, I believe, been brought about by a policy which could easily have been improved. Lest, however, it should be thought that any reduction which I might have moved would be a reflection upon those servants of the country who have now, in these Estimates, not only exhibited a desire, but have shown what can be done in the direction of economy, I do not propose to move any reduction.

I hope I shall be in order in calling attention to an item in Vote 4, which, I take it, is included in the statement of the Minister, of £27,000 for minor new works, additions and alterations, and incidental expenses connected therewith. I have had an opportunity of visiting the district of Tidworth, Netheravon and Andover, which was very active during the War. I am not sure whether the information that is circulated in that district is accurate, but I should like to know whether the suggestions made in the locality have any foundation in fact. At Netheravon there are derelict camps, huge electric installations, and all kinds of buildings on Salisbury Plain. Some of them, no doubt, will eventually be scrapped or sold for what they will fetch, but I should imagine that many of them could be made useful for the purposes of the Air Ministry. There might be opportunities there for providing landing grounds, and all the facilities required for training without any necessity for extra building costs. These buildings are on our own land, and the information that one gets in the locality is that the whole of these buildings, which have been erected at enormous cost, are to be scrapped.

Near Andover, on the other hand, at a place that used, when I was a boy, to be called Red Post Hill, is a very fine aerodrome erected on land which does not belong to the State, and which, I understand, there is no intention of acquiring. While all those other buildings are going derelict in different places all over the Salisbury Plain district, statements are circulated in the locality that already plans have been drawn up for extensive alterations and additional buildings at the Andover aerodrome, which is not on Government property, but on private property, the right to the possession of which may expire at almost any time. I think it is held on a lease, and I agree that it was secured at a very cheap rate, because when the Air Ministry took over this land during the War agricultural values were very low, and therefore the rent of this big estate is no doubt a small item.

It does seem to me, however—and this is the only case that has come to my personal knowledge—to be utterly futile that our own structures, on our own property not many miles away, on land that appears to be quite suitable for the purpose, should be allowed to go derelict, while we erect additional buildings at great expense on someone else's property. When I have been in the district I have been asked several times whether there was any intention of going to the additional expense of erecting buildings on this site, which is a good agricultural site, while many other sites on the Plain have no agricultural value, but are only of value for military purposes. They are ideal places for a business of this kind, whereas the site of the aerodrome at Andover is very fine agricultural land, which could easily be brought into cultivation if the Government or the Ministry had any intention of giving it up. I do not know whether any local interests are anxious to get the aerodrome near Andover made a centre for the locality, but if I can only draw de right hon. Gentleman's attention to the matter, he will probably look closely into it before additional expense is incurred by his Department on property that can be used for agriculture, and is not the property of the State, while in the- near vicinity there is land which is much more suitable for this purpose, which is not at all suitable for agriculture, and the buildings on which are going derelict at the present moment.

It is a great pity ,that while the right hon. Gentleman was speaking such an extremely small number of hon. Members were present. It is a pity, firstly, because hon. Members missed the great eloquence and charm which always distinguishes the right hon. Gentleman's utterances; secondly, because they did not hear what was said in reference to one Department that, apparently, can make out a good case as to its own efforts in the direction of economy; and, thirdly, because this question of the air is so supremely important. I should like to make one comment on the general statement that explains the fact that, in spite of all these economies, money has to be asked for. The right hon. Gentleman gave a complete exposure of the mind of the people who were arranging what was to be the greatest air push in history in 1919, and could not bear to think of the War ending to stop it. You can see it creeping through his fluent and well-rounded sentences. It was a regrettable thing that the War had ended. Then he dreaded the unemployment and upheaval and disorganisation that the closing down of all these works would cause. I am sure his tender heart was touched by the thought of the sufferings of the poor girls who were thrown out of work from the aircraft factories because the awful slaughter in France finished 12 months earlier. The right hon. Gentleman has done his best to keep things moving in the world of war ever since. He has tried to make up for that disappointment by setting light to Europe. The principal items of fresh expenditure are the five additional squadrons, and they are required because of our commitments in various parts of the world. Three were mentioned — Mesopotamia, Constantinople, and Ireland. I take it the trouble in Ireland is not that many more additional troops are required, but, in the case of some great international emergency, the Air Force there is not available, and that is one reason why these additional squadrons are required two years after the War to end war. I want to ask one question with regard to the use of these squadrons and the general expenditure arising, and—I do not like to say this—why the saving has not been greater. I believe a certain number of airmen served up till a late period of this year in the Crimea with General Wrangel. I suppose I should be out of order in going into the whys and wherefores of that extraordinary adventure, but would not the savings have been greater if these men had not been sent there? I believe they were so-called volunteers who served in that force.

With regard to the deliberate economy—two words which I hope will resound again and again through this Chamber during the next twelve months—that has been effected, may I ask this question about barracks. After all, the gross charge for the Air Force is £25,000,000 for the year, a very great sum, very nearly equal to the pre-War Army. The Air Force is taking the place of some section of the Army and some section of the Navy, and is it quite impossible for the Army or the Navy to hand over barracks? Is the Air Force, costing £25,000,000 odd, entirely additional to the great Army and the great Navy we are keeping up at present? I would suggest that instead of building fresh barracks for the Air Force we should deliberately replace part of the Army and part of the Navy by the Air Force, and look upon it as part of our naval and military strength, and then we should have the bricks and mortar without going to the great expense of building. The right hon. Gentleman may treat the suggestion lightly, I do not know, but he also used the words, "the great financial stringency of the country," and it is in view of that great financial stringency that I make this suggestion in all seriousness, however lightly it is treated. I hope we are not going to be committed to a great building programme for the Air Service, in view of the number of barracks we have, but the situation is serious in spite of the somewhat light way in which the suggestion, which was meant to be constructive, has been received.

9.00 P.M.

I wish to ask a question on Vote 1, Item H, the Air Force Reserve, on which I see there is a deficit of £28,000 odd. Would it be possible before we vote this money to get some word from the right hon. Gentleman as to the progress of the Air Force Reserve? It seems to me essential, things being as they are, that the Air Force Reserve should be built up at present. The Territorial Force scheme has been before the young rising generation for a long time now, and we have heard to-day from the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty a very interesting scheme for the future of the Royal Naval Reserve. Those two competing services will be drawing on the available public-spirited young men who are prepared to go into these reserve services. I should like to know if the Air Force Reserve is making its appeal to the right type of person? The Royal Air Force Reserve, of course, can hardly be built up now of men who have served their time in the Air Force, but are any steps being taken to form a Territorial Reserve for the Air Force?

I am taking a little money next year for the beginning of it, but not this year.

Thirdly, and most important of all—this is a point on which if the right hon. Gentleman could give us information I believe he would be doing a real service—are we taking real steps to form something analogous to the Royal Naval Reserve in the provision of flying pilots in the commercial air service, because that is were the real reserve will come from, just as our most valuable reserves for the Navy really are the professional officers and men who form the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Naval Trawler Reserve—men who are always at sea. I want to know whether we are getting hold of the professional flyers and what steps we are taking and what success we are having in recruiting them, and has the scheme put forward appealed to this sort of man? After all a trained Reserve of this sort, which by its profession is fitted to take part immediately in active operations, is the most economical form of fighting service you can have. With its small retaining fee and the small sum you pay for its trials you would have a fine Reserve, as in the case of the Naval Reserve, which costs £7 a head. Is that being done for the Air Service? In these days of economies when it is a necessity to look twice at every penny you spend on the fighting services, it will be a great pity if this economical form of getting a reserve of flying men is not being adopted, and of course that makes it all the more important that the commercial side of aircraft should be encouraged as a national effort.

The next question I wish to inquire about is on Vote 4—Works, Buildings, and Lands. I will only indicate the question because I may remind the right hon. Gentleman of some remarks I made on the subject on the main Estimates, when I got a very unsatisfactory reply. The right hon. Gentleman referred to Singapore as a coaling station. I hope he does not still think of it simply as a coaling station. Next July the Anglo-Japanese Treaty comes up for revision. If by any chance it is not renewed it would be very bad policy then to begin suddenly developments in Singapore. It is the strategical point of the Western Pacific, and anything we are doing ought to be started at any rate now so that no diplomatic charge could be made against us of not renewing the Treaty for some very good reason. I am not making a hostile speech against Japan or any other nation, but if we are going to strengthen the air defences of Singapore we ought to be starting now at any rate. I should like an assurance on that point. Singapore is not merely a coaling station.

On Vote 5 I should like to ask what is the actual liaison between the staffs of the Air Ministry and the Admiralty. If the right hon. Gentleman had been in his place earlier in the Debate he would have heard hon. Members, speaking on behalf of the Navy, deploring the fact that the Naval Air Service had been taken away from the Admiralty. I do not join with that, although I join in regretting that it is under the same ægis as the War Office. It is most important, when these criticisms are made, that there should be a real liaison. During the whole speech of the right hon. Gentleman there was not one word about the sea, the Admiralty, or the Navy. None of the extra money asked for is on that account. We would not grudge it if it were. I hope that the savings, the winnowings, and the cheese-parings that the right hon. Gentleman described have not been made at the expense of the naval wing of the Air Service. The most important part of that naval wing, when things are so experimental, is a planning, thinking liaison between the two staffs, and I should be glad of an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman on this point. On Vote 8, Civil Aviation, I dare not trust myself to speak, because the position is so very tragical. Aircraft firms, air-flying companies, are going out of business, going into liquidation, trained pilots are unemployed, trained, skilled mechanics are dispersing, while other nations are making great efforts to develop this branch of aviation. The right hon. Gentleman presided over his Air Conference the other day, and I hope something good has come out of it. I am certain he heard some very plain speaking about the apparent neglect of this vital factor in our future prosperity, and the real, modern future means of commercial and passenger transport. The whole thing is tragic. This branch is to fly by itself; but it is not flying by itself.

On Vote 9 I want to ask an allied question, and that is in regard to the two ex-German airships that have been handed over, L 71 and L 64. They are magnificent craft, rigid airships of the super-Zeppelin type. What is being done in regard to them? We have our own great airships, B 34 and R 80, and there is another ship in commission or part commission. I think we are economising on them; at any rate, they are not very active. Are the two ex-German airships being used? Is there any use for them? I suppose the experts are examining them. If so, how long will it take? Is there any plan for offering them to a commercial airship company? Has that been proposed? Is there any commercial airship company that would take them over?

Is it possible to offer a subsidy for them to be run, just as we offer a subsidy to the White Star Line for liners suitable for the Navy? Why not offer a subsidy for the running of these Zeppelins? I do not want to be twitted on the question of economy, but this would be a real economy. It would be a little money very well spent. I am not prejudiced in favour of the lighter-than-air ship. It has only a transitory usefulness, like the sailing vessel had for years after the sailing ship was superseded by steamers and marine engineering. The lighter—than—air ship will be useful for a number of years, but its days are numbered. The whole future is with the heavier—than—air machine. I have not a bee in my bonnet in regard to the lighter—than—air ship; but certainly they have a few years of usefulness, and when I hear of plans for a great trans—Atlantic service crossing the Atlantic from Germany to the United States in 48 hours, and I hear of American and German business men coming together to consider this sort of thing, I think it is a great pity that there is a possibility of our being forestalled. The blue riband of the Atlantic in regard to airship crossing might have been retained for the British. On the same Vote, may I renew my inquiries as to whether any progress is being made with experiments in the helicopter? The right hon. Gentleman gave a very interesting description of the experiments, and I am sure he is doing his best to allow experiments to be carried out. Will he give me an assurance on this point? There are those of us who think that the helicopter is the future form of flying craft. If so, we cannot afford, for flying purposes or for commercial reasons, not to push on our experiments with this extraordinary and interesting means of flight.

We have few opportunities for discussing aerial matters. I wish I could speak with more recent experience of the latest developments of flight. The matter is very important, and I am not certain that sufficient of the right hon. Gentleman's activities are reserved for the development of our aerial power, commercially and for war. Therefore I make no apology for having detained the Committee, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give a satisfactory reply.

I was very interested in the speech that we have just heard. It is the first occasion that the hon. Member has advocated expenditure on the part of the Government. I thought he was going to move a reduction of the Vote. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will be satisfied that, whatever money is asked for by the Government for the furtherance of aviation in this country, it will receive the support of the hon. Member.

I view this matter a great deal more seriously than most Members, and I speak on the matter more seriously than did the right hon. Gentlemen. It is not my intention to give a dissertation on the possibilities of civil aviation, but anyone who is anxious over aviation in this country, and is anxious to ask for money for that purpose, and has any intimate knowledge of what has been done in the past two years, is in a very difficult position. I honestly think that of all our extravagances, or all our inefficiencies, of all our reckless squandering and unbusinesslike administration and sheer cases of graft, the Air Service Administration has been unique. I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman did not deal with this matter more fully. We all know that there has been a great deal of difficulty to be faced in the winding up of this great Air Service, which received so little attention in this House in the years when some of us were trying to create it. We all know the extraordinary part that the Air Service played in bringing the War to a successful issue, and we also know that when the War ended there was material for the formation of a great aerial reserve. There were tens of thousands of high—class aeroplanes and the best engines available. There was a wonderful personnel of flyers. The War Office and the Air Department received hundreds of applications from young men who were willing with any small assistance to start trying to capture the mail carrying of the world in all places where mails can be carried more expeditiously, and even, in some cases, more economically. I would suggest that the Irish mail could be carried even now more economically by aeroplane at a less subsidy than is paid for the Irish mail boat. Only last week, when the mail boats were held up between this country and the Continent, the only mails which were carried were carried by aeroplanes. That should be enough to convince, though I am satisfied that we have no need to convince, the right hon. Gentleman in this matter. He was one of the pioneers, almost, I might say, the pioneer, in this House of aviation. I only wish that the right hon. Gentleman had been chosen to deal with aviation alone. It would have had very different treatment. We should have been told what aviation had got to be, and quite rightly.

The whole question of aviation never needed closer attention in this House. It has got a bad name in the financial world. The most appalling blunders have been made. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman how much of the £23,000,000 worth of material for which the Government paid £80,000,000 went to the Aircraft Disposal Company. It is very difficult to test information which we get because it generally comes from sources which it is difficult to disclose without implicating the people who give that information, but I would ask the right hon. Gentleman how much of the whole amount of the aeronautical impedimenta of which the Government found themselves possessed when the War ceased was handed over to this Aircraft Disposal Company, which is a private concern run for private profit by one or two men in the city who used the name of a fairly well—known constructor of aeroplanes and put him up as a nominee to get the whole aircraft impedimenta of the country. How much was paid by these people? I think £600,000 was the price. I do not think that £50,000,000 would pay for the actual material which they got for £600,000. I would like to be told the actual figure. The whole of this aircraft impedimenta, which was the property of the Government, if judiciously handled, could have been handed out to some of these young pilots who were willing, with small, if adventurous, companies, to start British aviation all over the world, instead of being sold to one or two financiers in the city. I think that Godfrey Isaacs is one of those who were most interested, but I would not be certain. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell us as to whether one or two men have secured the whole impedimenta, £50,000,000 worth of material for £600,000? The extraordinary part of it is that, having sold this, the Government buy the same stuff from the same manufacturers, paying £4,000 to £5,000 for machines which they have sold to this firm for perhaps £20 or £30. That is bad finance. It may have kept factories going, but I do not think it is any justification for doing that.

I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will give to this subject not the momentary attention of an interest ing address to this House, but his serious attention and above all, his imagination. I am not proposing now to quarrel with what he calls his little wars, but everyone knows that the right hon. Gentleman must have some outlet for his imagination and his energy or he would die. Therefore I beg of him, if only for a little time, to bestow his imagination upon aviation in this country. I have used every argument of which I am capable in the past pleading for this air service of which the right hon. Gentleman found himself possessed in 1919. I regret that the attitude of this House is such that it is almost impossible to get a quorum for the Debate on aviation. Never from 1916 to this day has there been a quorum in this House when an aviation vote was under discussion. If we can have the imagination of the right hon. Gentleman for a short time, let him be as keen as he was in the early days. Aeroplanes are so frail and shortlived that it is impossible to keep up to date a standard fighting service. The only possible hope for aviation to—day is to cultivate civil aviation and have aero planes doing something more productive than practically crashing round aerodromes all over the country teaching young pilots.

The only hope of ever getting money out of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the development of aviation in this country is if our commercial interests are involved. In another few years we shall have forgotten all about it when the possi bility of a future war is more remote than it is now. We want to retain the greatness of this nation, and it can only be done by the creation of a great air service That is only possible provided we have big aeronautical commercial interests. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to get a large scale map of the world and see the numerous places all over the world where air mail concessions can be got and services set up. This enormous amount of impedimenta which he is sacrificing now as mere scrap could be devoted to laying the foundations of a practical air commerce under the British flag through concessions everywhere. Let him tackle Ireland or France or long—distance mails going to Scotland. Even if they are not carried at a great profit, the small subsidy paid for these mails can be better invested than by keeping up machines which are obsolete or obsolescent for the purposes of some great future war.

Let him give attention to the design and construction of these aeroplanes and see that all these cargo—carrying or mail-carrying aeroplanes are so designed under the guidance of his own experts before granting them a subsidy, that they may be rapidly transformed at a moment's notice into war machines or bomb-carriers if necessary. All these sort of ideas I should have expected from the right hon. Gentleman. When I heard the Air Service was—coming into his hands again I really thought that civil aviation would have a chance. I do not plead for the sake of the men whose money is invested in it. Most of the firms who are alive to—day are those who jumped in; most of the firms who were hanging round Carey Street at the beginning of the War have gone through Carey Street. All the pioneers of aviation in the country with two exceptions have gone out of business, despite the fact that they made well out of the War. The firms who are in it are those who took it up as a paying game. The pioneers have gone to the wall with the joy of crucifixion. Aviation must be kept alive, and the only way to keep it alive is not for the right hon. Gentleman to tell civil aviation it must " gang its own gait " and fly itself. It cannot fly itself. You have two sorts of Press in this country, the technical Press, which is read by the minus half of 1 per cent. of the population, and the popular Press, which guys aviation, so that the ordinary public do not know anything about it, and look on it as another "stunt." It is not by "stunting" aviation that we are going to save it from death. Twenty—five million pounds was spent last year, and the right hon. Gentleman saved £1,500,000. Knowing the type of administration last year, I am glad we got £1,500,000 out of the scrap. I should have been glad if he had saved a little more, because it has been squandered.

There are aerodromes all over the country now. I asked the right hon. Gentleman the other day if he had ever seen them. They look like lost, dead cities. They are wonderful places, and if the right hon. Gentleman would take a motor car and drive to Norwich and go there to these lost cities of his he would see wonderful electric plants, great tin buildings, real brick power stations. There is an organisation set up there which will be as good in 20 years as it is to—day providing that ordinary common upkeep is considered. Despite all these places they go and start new places somewhere else, new schools when there are dozens of aerodromes wasted throughout the country.

The right hon. Gentleman nods his head. May I invite him to go and have a look at some of these cities of salt. Perhaps he has not the time. That is why I regret he has not the time and why I regret that the Minister responsible for aviation has not only aviation. Surely the task is quite enough for one man if we are not going to experience in the future what we experienced in the past. Under the Armistice he has destroyed priceless German aeroplanes. The Germans taught us how to build in the War. They knew more about aviation than we will learn in five years. They are being chucked on the scrap heap and we are building inferior engines. Surely it would be possible to bring these aeroplanes to this country if only to give them away to would—be pilots. There are two things we must have, we must have a sound system of aiding civil aviation in this country. If the right hon. Gentleman would try—I hate to suggest it to the Committee which always suggests to me the people who stand round the grave— I will not suggest it. I will suggest this; if he would make up his mind for one month to devote himself exclusively to that side of his duties associated with aviation I would assure him that when he came down and asked for the money to put British aviation on its feet there would not be a discordant note and he would have the overwhelming support of Members of this House. The greatest critic of his little wars and extravagances has offered his support to it to-night because it is the thing we have to consider.

I want to see the Navy get back the administration of its own Air Service. Every man who knows the Navy wants to see that. I want to see a Civil Air Service and an Aeronautical Reserve. It might pay the right hon. Gentleman to consider those three points, the creation of an Aeronautical Reserve based on a great Civil Air Service. Unless you do that the Air Service will peter down to something like what it was before the War—the Cinderella of the Army and the Navy, the unwanted child that very nearly died on the Admiralty doorstep, where it was kicked by the military authorities. That is what will happen in the years to come. It has no friends in this House or outside. It has no financial interests to back it up, but the possibilities of aviation are far greater than the possibilities of any other science that the ingenuity of man has conceived.

I have no reason to complain of the way in which the Committee has treated the Estimate which I have brought before them, and I would particularly acknowledge, not only the friendly, but the encouraging and comprehensive, spirit in which this Vote has been received, and also the considerable amount of discussion and technical knowledge which has animated the various speeches we have heard. My hon. Friend who has just sat down knows a very great deal about the Air Service, and all that he knows, or thinks he knows, is not entirely to his credit. He reproaches me for having too many fish to fry. It is not that I have too many fish to fry, but I have no butter to fry them with. When you have to supply the minimum in the way of schools, training, and so on, and the minimum number of squadrons needed to work in the different theatres with the different forces that are operating and holding the different positions in those theatres and the Navy, when you have done that I am really at the very last penny of the moneys which I have been able to ask Parliament to give. I have been able to reserve this £1,000,000 a year for civil aviation. I hope in the Estimates of next year to make some provision to encourage civil aviation. I shall make a very great effort to do so. I think it is essential to the future of the Air Service that some special effort should be made next year to help civil aviation. Hon. Members who have spoken have said that the position of civil aviation is disgraceful. I agree. The sense of tragedy is borne in on me the more by the news I have just received of the disastrous accident to a Handley—Page machine which occurred at Golders Green this afternoon, when four people were killed. Civil aviation is in a very difficult position, and a great many of those who a year and a half ago were thinking they would carry the triumphs of war into the sphere of peace have retired and moved elsewhere under conditions which are very disappointing and painful to them and to all of us. That is quite true, but unless the House is prepared to give considerably larger sums of money to maintain civil aviation during the years immediately before us, undoubtedly civil aviation will have a very difficult time. I am confident that in the end it will be a great new means of transit and commerce through the air and will bring about a change in the conditions all over the world which will probably render wars impossible.

The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Ken-worthy) asked me a great number of questions. I was very much surprised, I am not sure I was not rather shocked, to see the enthusiasm, the zest, the relish even, with which he allowed his mind to play upon these carnal and even lethal weapons. Of course, it is a very difficult thing in these days, when it is our duty to do everything we can to resist expenditure, not merely to cut off unnecessary expenditure but to deny ourselves necessary expenditure, to put away objects of expenditure in themselves highly desirable, in themselves beneficial in every direction of our national, social and economic life—to put these away simply because we have not got the money—to have to say " No," not because we do not want them but because we cannot pay for them. When that is the attitude which every public citizen should adopt, it disappoints you that so fervid and even per-fervid advocate of economy as the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull should stultify the whole political work he has done in the House this year by coming forward and throwing open broadly and widely the gates of almost unlimited expenditure in relation to the Air Service. 1 cannot tell the hon. and gallant Member how great will be the shock and pain and desolation in many a humble home throughout the country, where his great campaign has been watched with so much interest, when he has introduced this element of confusion and doubt and of divergent counsels, and thus has undone any advantageous work which he may suppose himself to have achieved during the year.

The hon. and gallant Member says that tentatively last year he began to enter upon this perilous and downward path. Any fault or failing that he may have indicated last year is entirely eclipsed by the hideous lapse from grace of which we have been witnesses this evening. My hon. and gallant Friend, the Member for Stoke (Lieut.-Colonel Ward) asked me about the Andover aerodrome. I should like to have more opportunity of considering fully the points he has made. I do not carry every aerodrome in my mind. I am told that the reason why this aerodrome was preferred is that a large proportion of the buildings there are permanent buildings, and in picking the places where we have stayed, as against those which we have evacuated, we have been partly influenced by the need of spreading the aerodromes in convenient places over the country and also to a very large extent by the fact that in certain places there are brick and mortar structures of a substantial and permanent character. I am much obliged to the Committee for their reception of the Vote. I hope they will not expect me to make a speech upon the present position and future prospects of aviation, military and civil alike. This is not the time of the Session for such a speech. As a matter of fact, but for very unfortunate events we should not be sitting at all now. The proper time for Parliament to sit is up to August, and our duties should be resumed in January or February. It is only the great pressure of public events and our great industry that are keeping us here on the eve of Christmas. Immediately after the Christmas holidays, in March and April, I shall have to introduce the Air Estimates for next year, and on that occasion, should I still be responsible for the Estimates, I shall have to make a full statement on the whole question and policy of aviation—the airships and civil aviation, and the various aspects of the military side.

:Before the right hon. Gentleman concludes I want to ask a question. I am not going to make any sort of reply to the very charming remarks he made about me. Of course, I feel them very much. The right hon. Gentleman tells us that he could not get more money from this close-fisted House of Commons for civil aviation, and that that is the reason why civil aviation is in its tragic position.

Why is it that on Vote 8, the civil aviation Vote, there is a surplus of £514,900? Unless there is some explanation of that, the right hon. Gentleman's excuse for his neglect of civil aviation is rather misleading.

The right hon. Gentleman did not answer any of the questions put to him. I asked him three or four questions, and I will ask them again. What is the price that was paid for all the aeronautical impedimenta by a company called, I believe, the Aircraft Disposal Company? What was the amount of the stock handed over to them? Did they buy for £600,000 approximately £60,000,000 worth of aeronautical impedimenta? Were they to have half the profits, and, if so, what steps are the Government taking in the taxpayers' interests to see that those profits are duly handed to the Ministry?

The sum is approximately £1,000,000. The transaction was one carried through by the Ministry of Munitions, and it was not one for which the Air Ministry was primarily responsible. It should be remembered in all these cases if a large amount of surplus stock is got rid of our critics say, "Here you are, handing over all this stock which cost so much for a mere song." On the other hand, if we do not get rid of the surplus, we are told, "Here you are, keeping all this stuff hanging about on your hands." As between these two points of view the Ministry of Munitions considered it wise to dispose of the surplus stock in the way in which they have done.

It looks as if probably £50,000,000 worth of stuff has been handed over to a firm of financiers for £1,000,000, and that there is a lot of money going to somebody somewhere. I am speaking for myself and several other hon. Members of this House who are not at all satisfied with that transaction. Had that transaction not taken place, this Vote would not have been asked for. It is only because the Air Ministry is so down on its calculations owing to this bad business transaction that they have now got to come and ask for a further sum of money on account. Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to appoint, or to have appointed, a small Committee of Members of this House to look into that transaction, to ascertain what were the conditions of the sale, and what possible chance there is of the taxpayers ever seeing a penny more than the £1,000,000 they have already got, and whether £1,000,000 has been paid? I understand it was not even paid by these people, but that they got control of the whole lot, sold £1,000,000 worth of it, paid it over to the Ministry for the whole lot, and collared the boodle, to use the vernacular. If that transaction is quite honest, and in order, there is no objection whatever to appointing a small Committee of Members of this House, which I do not desire to be on, to inquire into it. If the right hon. Gentleman does not agree to this, he leaves us in the very difficult position of realising that the Government are not desirous of that transaction being inquired into.

The suggestion that the Ministry or the Government have anything to conceal in this matter is wholly unfounded, but the question of whether or not there should be a committee to inquire into it' is one which should be addressed to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions, and not to me. I should like to say, however, that I have every reason to believe, although I am not directly and officially responsible for it, that it was a very sensible, practical transaction, and that it in no way bears the scandalous and imbecile character which my hon. Friend has endeavoured in a few sensational sentences to impart to it.

The right hon. Gentleman has very carefully not answered the question which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull put to him. The right hon. Gentleman professed his great sense of the importance of civil aviation, and said he had not done for civil aviation what he would like to have done because he could not get money from this House for it. My hon. and gallant Friend put it to him that on the Civil Aviation Vote sub-head there is a little matter of £514,000 this year as surplus, which apparently he might have spent on civil aviation but has not done so. How then does it come about that he comes down here and regrets that he has not enough money for the purpose of civil aviation?

I did not mean to throw any blame on the House of Commons, which has certainly not refused to vote any sums asked for, but I could only ask for such a sum as I thought right when the Estimates were prepared. I cannot come down and say, " How much are you going to give me for civil aviation; can I get £5,000,000 or £7,000,000 or £10,000,000 for the purpose? " I have to ask what is stated when the Estimates are definitely prepared It is true we have not spent the whole of the money this year, and one of the great reasons' for that has been that we are not able to develop the most important route which we wanted to develop, namely, that from Cairo, via Bagdad, to Karachi; owing to the greatly disturbed conditions which have prevailed in Mesopotamia, that route has not been developed, and if it is ever developed it will probably be by machines which fly a still wider distance. I should be very glad to see more spent on civil aviation, and I do not mind saying so, but having regard to the general state of our finances, and the heavy burdens in all directions which are accumulating upon us, I find it difficult to make a demand upon this small saving that has come to hand during this part of the year. I am, however, considering in the Estimate for next year whether I cannot put in some different forms for civil aviation than those which I have been able to put forward now. I did not intend to make any suggestion that the House was unwilling to sustain civil aviation, for neither this House, nor the Press, nor the public in this country have shown the least want of imagination or sympathy with that branch of our social and national activity, but in these times, when money is saved, I have a very strong sympathy with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and with those who feel that it is better to be used at the present moment in general reduction of our great and growing liabilities.

Is not this the real reason that £514,000 has not been spent on civil aviation, that the Government have to save somewhere in order, as far as possible, to minimise the additional expenditure of the right hon. Gentleman because of operations in Mesopotamia, Constantinople, and in Ireland?

Of course, it is always open if a shilling is saved in any one direction and another shilling is spent on something which is very undesirable in any other direction, to say that that shilling which has been saved has been devoted to the evil purpose, and to that extent I make my right hon. Friend a present of his suggestion.

I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £100.

I hoped the right hon. Gentleman would agree with the request I made of him, in connection with the reason why the Supplementary Estimate is now being asked, namely, that it is wanted owing to the way that the assets of the Air Service have been dissipated and squandered since the War, and as he has not proposed to do so, I move this reduction.

I understand that the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Billing) made some allusion to the Committee on National Expenditure with regard to certain matters which arose as to the disposal of certain stores.

I referred to the sale of aeronautical impedimenta to a certain man in the city who acted as nominee?

I am not quite certain how the hon. Member knew that we had been investigating the matter.

I assure the right. hon. Gentleman I did not know. This was the first opportunity I had of raising it.

We have been investigating it, and I can say it has nothing whatever to do with the Secretary of State for War. If there is anybody to blame, it is the Ministry of Munitions, but we came to the conclusion, after investigation, that there was nothing on which we could report, and we did not report. I do not think it is possible for me to reveal proceedings in Committee, but I may say we did not think there was any ground for taking action. If there had been, I should not have hesitated.

10.0 P.M.

:I mean to support the motion for a reduction as a protest against the unsatisfactory state of civil aviation, and the lack of support the right hon. Gentleman has shown to it, by not even spending the amount he was allowed, and by the waste of money in intervention in various parts of the world, which ought to be devoted to really useful experiments.

Question, " That a sum, not exceeding £1,935,200, be granted for the said Service," put, and negatived.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Civil Services and Revenue Departments Supplementary Estimates, 1920–21.(Class 7.)

National Health Insurance Commission (Ireland)

Motion made, and Question proposed,

" That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £68,540, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the salaries and expenses of the Insurance Commission (Ireland), and for sundry contributions and grants in respect of the cost of benefits and expenses of administration under the National Insurance (Health) Acts, 1911 to 1920 (including certain Grants-in-Aid)."

Motion made, and Question, " That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—

Roads Bill

As amended, considered.

CLAUSE 3.— (Establishment of Road Fund.)

(2) There shall be transferred or paid to the Road Fund all moneys which on the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-one, are standing to the account of the road improvement grant or are payable to that account, and all investments representing accumulations of money standing to the account of the road improvement grant shall be transferred to such persons as the Treasury may direct, and shall, subject to the provisions of any regulations made by the Treasury under the foregoing Subsection, be held by those persons for the purposes of the Road Fund.

(3) There shall be paid out of the Road Fund in every year—

(a) to every county council by whom the said duties are levied an amount equal to the expenses properly incurred by that council in accordance with directions issued by the Minister with the approval of the Treasury in or in connection with the levying of the duties, and the registration of vehicles, and in issuing licences to drivers of vehicles, and such regulations may provide for advances to be made to

( b ) to every local or police authority such sum as the Minister, with the approval of the Treasury, may determine to represent the amount which would, if this Act had not been passed, have been received by the authority on account of fees or charges for the licensing of mechanically propelled hackney carriages:

( c )such part of the expenses incurred by and in connection with the Roads Department of the Ministry of Transport, including the salaries of the staff of that Department, as the Minister may from time to time, with the approval of the Treasury, determine to be expenses so incurred in the administration of this Act:

( d ) any sums paid by the Minister in respect of the salaries and establishment charges of engineers or surveyors to local authorities under Sub-section (2) of Section seventeen of the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919:

( e ) all expenses incurred by any other Government Department in connection with the collection of the said duties or otherwise in the administration of this Act: and, subject to payment of the sums aforesaid and of any sums to be repaid to a local or police authority out of the Road Fund under any other provision of this Act, the moneys standing to the credit of the Road Fund shall be applied by the Minister for the purposes of Part II of the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909, as amended by this Act.

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to insert

" (3) Any sums received by the Minister under Part II of the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909, shall be paid by the Minister into the Road Fund in such manner as the Treasury may direct." The object of this Amendment is to provide that certain miscellaneous sums under Section 12 of the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909, shall go into the Road Fund.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In Sub-section (3) leave out the word "regulations,". and insert instead thereof the word "directions."— [Mr. Neal.]

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (3), to insert the words

Amendment agreed to.

CLAUSE 6.— (Registration and identification marks.)

(2) If the mark to be fixed in accordance with this Act is not so fixed, or if, being so fixed, it is in any way wilfully or negligently obscured or rendered or allowed to become not easily distinguishable, the person driving the vehicle shall for each offence be liable on summary conviction in respect of the first offence to a penalty not exceeding twenty pounds, and in respect of a second or subsequent offence to a penalty not exceeding fifty pounds:

Provided that a person charged under this Section with obscuring a mark or rendering or allowing it to become not easily distinguishable, shall not be liable to be convicted on the charge if he proves that he has taken all steps reasonably practicable to prevent the mark being obscured or rendered not easily distinguishable.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words "wilfully or negligently."

The words "wilfully or negligently" were not in the Bill as presented to the House. An effort was made in Committee by an hon. Member to insert the word "intentionally" before "obscured or rendered or allowed to become not easily distinguishable," and after considerable discussion my right hon. Friend agreed to insert the words " wilfully or negligently," but with the clear and definite understanding that the Government were to be at liberty to reconsider the decision if found necessary on the Report stage. Since then we have been in communication with the Home Office and with the police authorities, as they are the Department and the executive force who are primarily interested in the enforcement of matters of this description. The information which has been supplied to us is such that my right hon. Friend feels it imperative that we should ask the House to be pleased to remove the words which we tentatively accepted. The object of having an easily distinguishable mark in front and at the back of a vehicle is clear. It is to avoid vehicles which are being driven, perhaps, dangerously and improperly escaping without identification. On the other hand, it may be said, and it was said by many hon. Members in Committee, that these plates may become obscured through mud or they may become damaged in such a way that that you ought not to hold the owner, who may be quite ignorant of the fact that the plate is obscured, criminally responsible without proving that he did so either negligently or wilfully. These are the facts. In the year 1915 there were four fatalities in the Metropolitan police district caused by unknown motor vehicles. In 1916 that figure had increased to 10, and this was regarded by the police authorities as a very grave condition of affairs. I am only dealing with fatalities. How many accidents of a minor character there were, where the motorist drove away without identification because of his plate being illegible, I am not able to say. But when in the Metropolitan area 10 fatalities happened in one year the Commissioner of Police gave public warning that the matter must be seriously attended to. A very short observation was taken in the metropolis with the result that no less than 4,000 cars were discovered with identification plates and marks which were not easily discernible. The defendants were cautioned, and allowed 14 days to put the matter right. In 1918 the matter again became acute, and 6,000 offences were detected in the metropolis within a very short period, and following upon that there were a number of prosecutions. Again this year a similar state of affairs was revealed, and prosecutions again took place. I think these figures show the importance of having these identification marks made easily identifiable. In 1915 there were four fatalities with undisclosed motorists; in 1916, 10. Then the Commissioner took action. In 1917 there were seven. Again action was taken, and they were reduced to two in 1918, and in the last year, 1919, they had wholly disappeared. There were no fatalities with unknown motorists in that year. The Commissioner of Police feels that it is most important that this obligation should be imposed on motorists to keep their identification marks clear and distinct. I would like to call the attention of the House that this offence is qualified by the proviso that

I put down a manuscript Amendment in precisely similar terms to that moved by my hon. Friend, and I am very glad the Government have taken the decision they have. I most earnestly hope it will be supported by the House. I only regret that the proviso stands there, because it weakens the force of the position as it used to be. Anybody who has any experience of the Law Courts knows what a difficult thing it is if he has to prove the words "wilfully or negligently." There is a whole mass of High Court decisions on this by which the inferior Courts are guided, and if these words are allowed to remain in, I have not the slightest doubt that there would be a recurrence of these fatal accidents. Not only so, but there would be a general increase in the lack of care by drivers of motor vehicles. The number of motor vehicles is increasing every day, and it can be quite moderately stated that the dangers increase every day. For this House to lend itself to any slackening of any safeguards for the public is certainly to take a very grave step that might have most serious consequences. I most heartily welcome the decision which has been taken by the Ministry on this very important matter.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry has quite correctly stated what took place in Committee, and subsequently what took place here, and the promise given in regard to the insertion of these words. What, then, is the result of the agreement arrived at? The Parliamentary Secretary has given us a list of accidents in several recent years and the action of the police in regard thereto. How has that result been arrived at? Not by getting hold of the people who committed these grave offences, but by the police going round and examining some thousands of motor cars to discover whether the name plates were or were not in a proper condition. I ask him how, supposing this Clause was left as it is at present, in what way would the police be damnified? They could go round and examine all the number plates of the cars, and if they found they were not clear there would be a primâ facie case for supposing that they were either deliberately or negligently in that condition, and although it might not be possible to prove that they had wilfully been damaged in order that they might not be legible, it would be perfectly easy to prove that they had been negligently allowed to remain in that condition. Therefore, so far as regards the public safety, I assert that the omission of these words would have no effect whatever.

I assure the House I have never owned a motor car in my life. I admit the great dangers which one sees every day in the streets. It makes one very nervous when walking home, or, indeed, when walking about. But if I were knocked down and killed or fatally injured by a motorist or a taxicab, the motor car or taxicab would be far away down the street before it would occur to anybody to look at the rear number, and if they looked at it there would be the question of getting hold of a policeman to go after it. The protection is illusory. What would happen would be that there might be an officious policeman who could stop a motorist. I am sorry the Noble Lord opposite, who appears to have been stopped a good many times, and who has been interested in these proceedings, is not here, or he would have been able' to give us his experiences. Not being a motorist, I cannot say what happens when you are stopped, but a man may be summoned by the police for two offences: one for driving beyond the prescribed limit, and the other for having his number plate in such a state that it cannot be easily discerned. That is not his fault, but it is on account of the muddy condition of the road that the rear plate has got obliterated, and it was to avoid that state of things that these words were inserted. The result will be that dangerous motorists—in my opinion 50 per cent. of them are dangerous—would get away. I do not think hon. Members fully understood the effect of the Amendment which was inserted in Committee, and the only result of leaving out these words will be that the danger to life and limb to ordinary pedestrians will still remain. I regret very much that these words are to be left out, because I think that they would have prevented an injustice which certainly does occur.

I must confess that I listened with great astonishment to the reasons given by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport as to why these words should be left out. The hon. Gentleman told us of the number of crimes that had disappeared because the number plates had been kept clean, but personally I cannot see the remotest connection between those circumstances. I can appreciate the activity of the police in seeing the Act has been complied with, but I cannot see how these words, if left in, would lead to a recurrence of the fatal accidents in the streets of London. This proposal is very unfair to reasonable motorists, particularly in the Provinces, who do not want their case prejudiced by the wickedness and excesses that occur in the City of London. In my view, these words should only be dealt with in their application to the City of London, so that ordinary, reasonable motorists throughout the country might have the benefit of the words which the Committee thought fit to insert.

There is a third reason why these words should be inserted. It is all very well for the Parliamentary Secretary to take a reasonable view of the situation as it will be handled by the police. But unfortunately the whole history of motor legislation shows that the powers given to the police have been most unreasonably and improperly used. Their time and their energy have been devoted to persecuting and prosecuting motorists for offences which have had no dire results or have prejudiced no other person, and I put it to the House that if the motorists have not hurt anyone or caused damage to any person, then surely it is an offence of a technical character that the number plate may possibly get obscured. I protest that after very careful consideration of this point by the Committee, who devoted a considerable amount of attention to it, it is not fair that the words should be removed. On whose advice are they removed? Not by the wish of Members of this House or of the Committee, but merely because the Ministers in charge of the Bill, who are presumed to reflect the opinion of and be guided by Members of this House, have been told by certain departmental police officials that they must not allow this reasonable safeguard to be kept in. I hope the House will express the view that was arrived at by this Committee after very careful inquiry, and will insist that their wishes shall be reflected in the Act of Parliament, and that those wishes shall not be overborne by official advice from any Government Department.

If the information which has been conveyed to the House by the Minister in charge to-night had been laid before the Committee, the words "wilfully or negligently" would not have been put into the Clause. There was a consensus of opinion in the Committee that it was desirable to have them in order to prevent motorists being penalised. But the figures that have been given us this evening by the Parliamentary Secretary disclose such a state of affairs that I do not think the House will be justified in resisting the proposal that the words shall be left out. I think the improved state of affairs of which we have been told is not confined to London. It prevails all over the country, perhaps in a minor degree. The Minister has, I think, made good his case for the words to be cut out of the Bill, and for the Clause to be restored to its original form. It would never do for us in passing this measure to open the door wide to the possibility of serious injury being inflicted upon innocent people, and, of course, there should be methods of tracing the owners of motor cars by means of the identification plate. If we assent to the words "wilfully or negligently" being left left in the Bill, I suggest it would be a premium on careless driving, and there would not be care taken to see that the identification plate was kept clean.

I must confess to some disappointment that these words are now to be omitted. I am sure that if my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Southampton (General Sir I. Philipps) and the hon. Baronet the Member for Twickenham (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks) had been present they would have expressed very grave disappointment also. I cannot follow the argument that, if these words are left out, it will be easier to catch any motorist who commits some offence on the highway. Cases in which a motorist knocks a man down and escapes occur almost invariably at night, and I cannot see how the question whether his number-plate is obscured will affect his carefulness in regard to driving. In the majority of cases he will not know. Assuming—which is the normal state of things—that the plate is properly painted and that the lettering on it is of the official size, and that a man goes out with his car clean, if the plate becomes obscured it will be through travelling on the road. It seems to me that it would be most unjust if, on the ground that your number-plate had become obscured by mud or from other causes while you were travelling on the highway, although you were in no wise to blame, you could be summoned and become liable to a penalty of £20. It is true that under the Summary Jurisdiction Act magistrates have the power to treat the matter leniently, and dismiss the summons, say, on payment of costs; but it is forgotten that a man may be travelling in his car at a considerable distance from his home, and that it may be impossible, or not reasonably practicable, for him to go down and defend the case. Then it is heard in his absence, and a considerable penalty may be inflicted, and he has practically no redress. I have tried to recall any case in my experience in which this difficulty over lettering has arisen, and I do not know of one.

Of course a car may pass and disappear rapidly without being identified, and one would like to examine these cases which the police have put forward. The Minister of Transport was, and I believe is still, anxious to assist us in this matter, and I believe that if the matter were left to him he would retain these words. What struck me in regard to another question, however, was that he is too largely dominated by the Home Secretary and the police. He really ought to propose his Bill as he thinks right, and not have it overridden by any police comments or any advice that he may get in regard to the matter from the Home Secretary The Minister of Transport told us that it is proposed that a Bill shall be introduced next Session to deal with the whole subject of motor cars, offences, and so on. Here is an opportunity for him to test whether or not there is truth in the reports made by the police. Let us have the Bill in the form in which it is now before the House. When it has been tested for something like six months, he can come down any say, " I yielded to the unanimous request of hon. Members during the Committee stage and put in a provision that the offence, if committed, must be committed wilfully or negligently," and then he might say, " I must withdraw that, because I have found, from a careful watch kept by the police in the interval since the Bill became law, that it has been abused, and injury has been done to the public and offenders have escaped." Surely that is a reasonable course to take, and I ask the Minister of Transport to consider whether during that short period until the Bill is introduced he will not allow the words inserted by him, by virtue of an understanding that was come to in Committee, to stand and give them a test to see whether or not these fears are well founded. I trust something of that kind will be done.

If I had any doubt at all as to how I should vote if this matter should go to a Division, it has been solved by the suggestion my hon. and learned Friend has made. It is that in the new Bill which is promised in the spring we should have inserted these words, " wilfully and negligently"; if they are left out as he suggests they should be left out in this Bill.

No, I said keep them in now, and if you find that injury is done to the public in the interval before the new Bill is introduced you can meet that in the new Bill.

The suggestion is that they should be left in, and if in consequence of their being [left in, in the interval before the new Bill is introduced injury has been done to the public—those words are his; in my words, lives have been lost—then only shall the Minister of Transport insist on leaving out the words.

If the hon. Member persists in misstating my argument as I understood it, I will not interrupt again.

The suggestion of my hon. and learned Friend is that these words shall remain in the Bill, and if in the interval it is found that their remaining in has the effect the Parliamentary Secre- tary suggested, of causing damage to the public, the change shall be made. I think the experiment should be in the other direction, the direction of public safety, and if these words are now omitted, and if it is found that the omission of the words makes for public safety, the practice shall continue, but otherwise the change my hon. and learned Friend desires shall be made. The whole question is this. Shall the responsibility of keeping these identification marks clear and unmistakable rest upon the motorist or upon the police to prove that the motorist was wilfully negligent in allowing it to be obscured? The common resemblance of the red light at the rear applies. The red light at the rear of the car must be kept brilliant on the responsibility of the motorist. There is no suggestion that he must be proved to be wilfully negligent in allowing the light to go out. He must keep it going in the interest of public safety. Therefore, while sympathising most strongly with every desire to facilitate motorists in their business or their pleasure, I feel that public safety first is the consideration which should weigh with the House. Believing that it is in the interest of public safety that the responsibility should rest undisturbed and undiminished upon the motorist, I believe the position the Ministry has taken up, with the possibility if it should prove necessary next spring that it should be kept on the motorist is the right one, I will support the view of the Government.

A totally wrong impression would be conveyed if it were thought that those who are desirous of leaving these words in the Bill had not the public safety at heart. That would be the impression created by the hon. baronet's speech if it were left where it is. We who want to keep these words in the Bill are as anxious for the maintenance of the public safety as the hon. Baronet and his Friends who have spoken in the same strain as himself. I would increase the penalties up to any amount, but I cannot see that the omission of these words will have any effect in that particular direction. It would be perfectly easy to prove before the magistrates that the identification marks had been obscured or allowed to become not easily distinguishable, wilfully or negligently. What more is desired, if that is possible, of proof? On the other hand, if these words are omitted there may be possibilities of injustice to the innocent motorist. When I leave this House I go north to my constituency, the roads of which at this time of the year are covered with mud. Motoring there, it is almost impossible to prevent the number plate from becoming covered with mud and not easily distinguishable after the motor has covered a few miles. If these words are taken out it would be possible to obtain summary conviction, not because the driver, myself or somebody else, had wilfully or negligently allowed the number plate to become obscured, but because, through no fault of the driver, the mark had become obscured, though he might have gone only a few miles, at a pace of five miles an hour. In that case he would have committed an offence, and would be liable to a penalty of £20. The decision which the Committee came to in the first instance was a right decision, and I hope that the House will re-affirm it.

I have no desire to intervene in this discussion, but I am bound to give my experience for what it is worth in regard to a particular class of motorists who have not been mentioned hitherto—the motor cyclists. They include many very excellent, respectable people, but also many of the worst and most dangerous road-hogs. I have known case after case which came before the local Bench, in which the charge was that of having the number-plates obscured by the corner of the coat of the man or the skirt of the girl sitting on the carrier behind. In my experience there has been serious reason to believe that in a very large number of those cases there has been intentional obscuring of the plate by the hanging over of one corner of the coat. Therefore, I think that you should not have those words put in here, because the defence in these cases was that it was not wilful, that it was purely accidentally that the corner of the coat on the carrier slipped over. It is very difficult to prove that it was made to happen on purpose, but such a number of cases of this kind have occurred that there is very strong reason to believe that it is a common dodge of the motor cyclist road-hog.

My hon. Friend opposite (Lieut.-Colonel A. Murray) asked the House to reaffirm what he called the decision of the Committee. That was a mistake, because there was no decision. The Committee was fearful that a discussion might arise at a late hour, as occurs often in existing conditions, and I promised that the matter would come before the House so that it should not be decided sub silentio, but that opportunity should be given for discussion. The House will agree that the matter has been fully discussed. Obviously there is a considerable body of opinion among Members of the House, motorists and otherwise, on this matter, but speaking as the Minister responsible for this Bill, and as one who has been a motorist of 25 years' standing, I have never had my number-plate obscured by mud. I have had it obscured by an irresponsible chauffeur, well intentioned but misguided, who had cleaned it with an oily rag before starting on a dusty day. No one can prove that that was negligent or wilful, exactly in the same way as my hon. Friend who has just sat down says that a skirt may, not negligently or wilfully perhaps, float across the number plate of a motor cycle, but, apart from that, it is in the best interests of the motorist. We have had ten cases in London alone in a year of motorists getting away after they have killed a man through number plates which were not easily distinguishable. When a check is taken by the police in a comparatively short period, two or three weeks, we get 4,000 cases, and another time 6,000 cases, of defective number plates not easily identified. It is in the interests of the motoring community who desire to prove that they are members of the community who ought to be treated with consideration, that they should not go about, or allow others to go about, without taking scrupulous care to see that if they are wanted by the police for any reason, whether they are guilty or not, that their number can be seen when they have passed the police. It is not in our interests as motorists that there should be any negligence, whether it can be proved as wilful or not. It is the duty of everybody to keep his number free, to see that his lamp is lit. I have never been summoned in 25 years for not having my tail lamp lit, because I always look to see. If you look to see and look over the back of the car on a windy night you will not be summoned. It is in our interests there should not be these cases of a motor running over a man and getting away through a defective number plate. In the interests of that class to which I belong I ask the House to allow this to stand.

I do not rise to object to the proposal, but to take strong exception to the observations which fell from my hon. Friend the Member for one of the Divisions of Hertford (Mr. D. Herbert) about motor-cyclists. I do not think he helps his case for this Amendment by uttering a slander against a class of which I know a great deal more than he does.

I prefaced my remarks by saying that motor-cyclists numbered a large number of most respectable persons among them. I did not say they were all road hogs.

I notice he carefully refrained from suggesting that there were any road hogs in the car-owner class.

He singled ou the motor—cyclist, and alleged that he deliberately hung the tail of his coat over the number plate so as to hide the number. If he had been a motor-cyclist he would have known that his coat ran the risk of being caught in the wheel, and he would be thrown to the ground and perhaps his leg broken.

It is grossly unfair. I referred to cases that came actually within my own knowledge before the Bench. I spoke of overcoats rolled up and packed on the carrier at the back. There are road hogs on motor-cars as well, but I was not referring to them. The facts are not to be contradicted.

If the hon. Gentleman had put his case in his original speech as he did now I should not have spoken. It does not help a case for the general identification of motorists to make an attack on one class, the motor cyclists, and pass over, without a word of comment, a class in which there are road hogs. I have had my own experience of them. I have had to prosecute some of them. I have been a motor cyclist for 19 years; I have not had an accident, and I have not even hurt a sparrow. I doubt whether the hon. Gentleman has as good a record.

Every motor cyclist and every car owner will stand for the rule that there ought to be the most easily identifiable number-plate. In putting this case the Parliamentary Secretary went hardly as far as he might have gone. He left us to assume that in all these 4,000 cases, at all events in the manslaughter cases, no one had been made amenable because the number-plate was unidentifiable. I have taken a great deal of interest in these statistics for many years. Every year that the statistics have been published I have kept an analysis of them, and I tell my hon. Friend that if he will turn to his own statistics he will find this astonishing thing—that in those cases what happened was that the motorist drove off and the passers-by were more concerned with the victim of the accident than with the identification of the car. That does not convey the suggestion that the number-plate was not perfectly easily identifiable. I have the statistics of horse-drawn traffic for ten years, and if the hon. Member has not got them I will make him a present of them. The number of casualties and fatalities with horse-drawn vehicles and slow-moving traffic, number for number, is greater in the streets of London than for motor traffic. I am sure the hon. Gentleman is well aware of that.

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will allow these words, or some modification of them, to remain in the Bill. I say that because of an incident of which I was a witness two or three nights ago. A motor car was being driven along the road with a front number-plate completely obscured by snow. The plate was in a position in which, under ordinary circumstances, it would have been most clearly visible, and that was right across the front of the radiator. The fact that it was in such a position made it all the more liable to become obscured when driven through the light snow that was falling. It would be very bad luck to be prosecuted and fined heavily in such circumstances.

The proviso at the end of the Clause clearly meets that point. It says

"Provided that a person charged under this Section with obscuring a mark or rendering or allowing it to become not easily distinguishable, shall not be liable to be convicted on the charge if he proves that he has taken all steps reasonably practicable to prevent the mark being obscured or rendered not easily distinguishable."

When driving in a snowstorm you cannot get out every hundred yards to clear a number-plate.

11.0 P.M.

That proviso does away with the penalising Clause of the Bill. You should strike out the one or the other, because they contradict one another.

Amendment agreed to.

CLAUSE 7.— {Amendment of 59 & 60 Vict. c. 36, 3 Edw. 7 c. 36, and 9 Edw. 7 c. 37.)

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to insert the words

"The Minister may, by Order on the application of any county council after holding a public inquiry, prohibit or restrict subject to such exceptions as to occasional user or otherwise as may be specified in the Order, the driving of vehicles of any specified class on any specified highway within the area of the council in any case in which it appears to him, as the result of the inquiry, that a vehicle of that class cannot be used on that highway without endangering the safety of the vehicle or the persons therein or of other traffic using the highway, or that the highway is unsuitable-for use by a vehicle of that class.

Provided that—

( a ) the Minister may at any time, after giving notice in that behalf, to the-county council on whose application the Order was made and, after considering any objections made by that council but without holding any public inquiry, revoke, vary, or amend any Order made under this Sub-section; and ( b ) every Order made under this Subsection shall require the authority responsible for the maintenance of the highway to which the Order relates to give in the prescribed manner notice of the fact that an Order has been made under this Sub-section with respect to that highway. The provisions contained in the Second Schedule to this Act shall have effect with respect to applications and inquiries under this Sub-section.

The foregoing provisions of this Subsection shall be substituted for Section eight of the Motor Car Act, 1903."

This Sub-section has to be read in conjunction with the Schedule to it which appears later on the Paper. The question of what control the Minister of Transport shall have for regulating motor traffic on the roads was discussed in Committee, and at one stage of the discussion my right hon. Friend invited hon. Members who were interested in the matter to do us the honour of calling upon us and conferring with us upon it. This Subsection as drawn is practically the result of that conference. Before the Minister could by Order prevent or limit the use of any form of motor traction upon a road, he would have to be instigated by the county council, there would have to be a public inquiry, and certain conditions would have to be satisfied. The Sub-section also provides for a revision of the decision at any time upon a proper cause being shown for that step, and for requiring the authorities to give adequate notice that the Order has been made. The Schedule provides the machinery for carrying this into effect.

Amendments made to proposed Amendment: After the word "exceptions" [" subject to such exceptions "] insert the words " or conditions."— [Mr. Grant.]

After the word " inquiry " [" result of the inquiry"] insert the words "to be proved."— [Sir F. Banbury.]

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, at the end of paragraph (b), to insert a new paragraph—

"( c ) Nothing in this Section should apply to any road used regularly by omnibuses plying for hire within two years prior to the first day of March, nineteen hundred and sixteen."

I do not know what the Government will do upon this Amendment, but the object of it is to preserve to the use of the public the motor omnibuses which are growing in popularity every day. There is no doubt that they are depriving the tramways to a very great extent of money which they would have earned had motor omnibuses not been invented, and I am rather inclined to think that some county council might persuade the Minister—not the present Minister, but we are legislating for all time, and we do not know who may be in that position in 20 or 25 years— and bring pressure to bear upon him to prohibit motor omnibuses. That is the reason of the Amendment.

Like the right hon. Baronet, I infinitely prefer the motor omnibuses to the trams, and I am entirely in favour of people being encouraged to use motor omnibuses rather than' trams. I regard the tram as an out-of-date system of locomotion. At the same time, I do think the Minister should have power to prohibit motor omnibuses from using certain roads if he deems it to be to the interest or safety of the public. Motor omnibus services are being extended very largely, particularly in the metropolitan area. They are running over roads over which they never did run in 1916. Motor omnibuses, particularly those licensed for hire in the streets of the metropolitan area, are not structurally built to run upon roads which may have very sharp curves or a very high camber in the open country, and the Minister should have power, under certain conditions and safeguards, to prohibit the running of omnibuses over such roads. There are certain motor omnibuses which can run over any roads, such as the single-deck omnibuses that run in certain outer parts of London, particularly in the south-western district, and can go anywhere; but certain types are distinctly unsuitable to run outside the metropolitan area. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will not accept this Amendment.

I hope my right hon. Friend will not think it necessary to press this Amendment. May I point out that the words he uses—" two years prior to March, 1916 "—are taken from the emergency Act passed for the purpose of the War, and on this occasion at least I am entirely at one with my right hon. Friend in wishing to get rid of that war-time piece of legislation, the effect of which was to give county councils the power to prohibit the running of new motor omnibus routes, the exception being where the route had been in use for a period of two years prior to the passing of the Act. As was pointed out by my noble Friend (Viscount Curzon), not only omnibuses but other vehicles of much heavier calibre might desire to use these routes to the manifest danger of the public, and by this Amendment the Minister would be precluded from stepping in to protect the public interest. The dominant motive of this Clause is public safety; therefore I hope my right hon. Friend will not think it necessary to press his Amendment.

I believe the word " omnibus " is a word easily definable in a Court of Law. It would not include a char-à-banc. But my other Amendment has been accepted. It is extremely late, and I do not wish to show the weakness of the supporters of the Government in the House. I should very much doubt if they have more than 80 at this moment, and as my solicitude is always for the Government I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

May I ask one question. To what roads does this Clause apply? As I read it it applies to main roads.

Is it suggested that the county councils should interfere with district councils roads? I am a member both of a district council and a county council. The district council roads are managed by the local ratepayers, and never come under the supervision of the county council at all. These roads are often the narrowest and the most difficult. The county council may have the power, but I never heard of it.

I am sure that my hon. friend would not desire to raise this question on this particular Amendment, though, if I may by leave of the House, I will answer at once. The county council makes the application and require interest, the local urban and district councils have a full opportunity of being heard at the public inquiry that will be held.

Amendment to proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, at the end of paragraph (b) to insert new paragraphs—

>Amendment to proposed Amendment not seconded.

Proposed words, as amended, there inserted in the Bill.

CLAUSE 10.— (Provisions as to licence duty in case of manufacturers or dealers in mechanically-propelled vehicles.) paragraph 1 or paragraph 2 of the said Schedule, not exceeding thirty shillings:

I beg to move in Subsection (1) to leave out the word "fifteen" ["fifteen pounds"], and to insert instead thereof the word "ten." This is to redeem a promise made by my right hon. Friend on the Committee stage of the Bill.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In Subsection (1) leave out the words "not exceeding" ["not exceeding thirty shillings"], and insert instead thereof the words "at the yearly rate of."— [Mr. Neal.]

CLAUSE 13.— {Regulations.)

(1) The Minister may make regulations generally for the purpose of carrying this Act into effect, and in particular, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision, may make regulations—

( g ) prohibiting or restricting, on the application of the county council concerned, the driving of any vehicle or any class of vehicle on any specified highway or part of a highway; and

Amendment made: Leave out paragraph (g).[Sir E. Geddes.]

CLAUSE 14.— (Penalties.) or to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding six months.

I beg to move in Sub-section (1) to leave out the words " three years " and to insert instead thereof the words "twelve months."

In the discussion in the Committee the view was expressed that to leave motorists open to the penalty for a period of three years was wrong. It was suggested that that might be reduced. The result is that I now move to limit it to twelve months.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in Sub section (2), to leave out the words " is false, or which is intentionally misleading in any material respect," and to insert instead thereof the words " to his know ledge is false or in any material respect misleading."?

Considerable controversy arose last night about the declaration to be made in connection with the registration of cars and the penalties to be incurred for a false declaration. Certain views were expressed, and ultimately, at the close of the discussion, I promised to ask the assistance and guidance of the Attorney-General. That has been done, and this Amendment is the result.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made:

In Sub-section (2), leave out the words " are intentionally false or which are misleading in any material respect" ["furnishes any particulars which are false or which are intentionally misleading in any material respect"], and insert instead thereof the words " to his knowledge are false or in any material respect misleading."— [Mr. Neal.]

CLAUSE 16.—(Amendment of s. 28 of 41 and 42 Vict., c. 77.)

Paragraph (3) of section twenty-eight of the Highways and Locomotives (Amendment) Act, 1878, and paragraph (3) of section three of the Locomotives Amendment (Scotland) Act, 1878 (which prescribe the maximum weight of locomotives to be used on highways), shall have effect as though the prescribed weight were therein substituted for fourteen tons.

I beg to move to leave out the words " the prescribed weight" and to insert instead thereof the words " twenty tons, including the weight of fuel and water."

This Clause rather breaks away from the rest of the Bill, which deals with cycle, motor, and chars-à-banc traffic. Apparently it is a very innocent Clause. It deals with legislation by reference, and it is therefore necessary to look back to the Highways and Locomotives (Amendment) Act, 1878, to see what it means. I find that this apparently innocent Clause takes away powers which the London authorities, the borough councils, and the county councils now possess to either refuse to license locomotives weighing more than 14 tons, or if a licence is given to attach to it conditions referring, for instance, to the non-use of certain roads, or portions of roads, or other conditions. If this Clause is passed as it stands, and if the words by weight are substituted for 14 tons, it means that the Minister of Transport may at any time authorise locomotives of any weight to use any roads, and it takes away entirely from the county and borough councils any power to prevent it. There is not even any necessity for the Minister to consult the local authorities concerned. I should like to point out that there is no vehicle which does more damage to roads than a heavy locomotive-of 15 tons with a big trailer behind it, and if the weight of these locomotives is to be increased to 40 tons or more, with a corresponding addition for the trailers, it means that a tremendous weight will be carried over the roads, and more damage than ever will be done to the foundations and to pipes and drains under the surface. The foundations too of that property facing the road will be shaken, and the conditions of life in the houses rendered almost intolerable, particularly to poor people in small tenements. Above all, it will enormously increase the cost of maintaining the roads. I suggest that my Amendment is a very reasonable one; that is, that instead, that a definite instead of an unlimited weight should be prescribed by the Ministry of Transport. I recommend that 20 tons, to include the weight of the fuel and water, should be prescribed, and that if any locomotive over that weight wants to use the roads it should first get the consent of the authorities interested.

I am extremely sorry my hon. Friend should have based his argu- ment on the assumption that the Minister of Transport, who is charged with the care and upkeep of the roads and who is bound to administer the fund in aid of the local authorities in the upkeep of the roads, would be at all likely under any circumstances to make regulations or to prescribe that there should be used upon the roads weights for which those roads were totally unsuitable.

I made no such suggestion with regard to the present Minister of Transport at all events.

I am quite sure it was not directed personally against my right hon. Friend, but I am looking at it impersonally—that any Minister of Transport, having the administration of these large funds entrusted to him, would be under any circumstances minded so to use his powers as to do the very opposite to what the whole object of the legislation is, namely, to protect the roads against abuse. One had another view of this matter yesterday by the hon. Baronet (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks), who expressed a fear lest the Minister of Transport, with his care for the roads, might legislate out of existence existing vehicles which use the roads, and I think my hon. Friend (Mr. Pennefather) was not in his place during that discussion and possibly has not had his attention drawn to the Debate as it appears in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

I thought the hon. Member had not got it in his mind at the moment. Now may I state exactly what it is that the Minister suggests he should do under the Regulations, which have to be laid on the Table of the House and receive approval. At present the limit is 14 tons, which is, in fact, less than the weight of these vehicles which are using the roads. Stripped of all their accessories, with their cab taken off, and their bars taken off, they actually weigh about 15 tons, but in a normal condition for receiving their load and with water and fuel they weigh about 18½ tons, which the Minister is advised is the figure which might properly, at present, be inserted in the Regulations. There might have to be a change. Some of these vehicles have to carry extra equipment, such as cranes and the like, and occasionally they carry a load up to the 20 tons my hon. Friend mentioned in his Amendment—something in the region of 21 tons. As the roads are made stronger and better, they will carry the loads better. There are some forms of heavy machinery which have to be moved along the roads because the railways cannot take them. It is because the present Statute is inflexible, because it is not in fact being administered, but is being ignored, that it is thought wise that there should be power by Regulations, which will be subject to the greatest scrutiny, to make varying weights applicable perhaps in varying districts or on varying roads and according to the different kinds of machinery used on the roads. But the whole object is to prevent there being any improper use of the roads so as to destroy that for which, after all, the Minister of Transport will, in many cases, be contributing 50 per cent. towards the upkeep.

The hon. Gentleman's remarks with reference to his Chief are quite touching, but they leave me quite cold. If the Minister of Transport intended to protect these roads in the way the hon. Member suggests, surely he would have taken powers to prevent iron tyres being employed on the roads at all. Everyone who has witnessed heavy motor transport with iron tyres on the roads, knows the extraordinary depreciation which they bring about. 1 should like to ask the hon. Gentleman whether he has taken into conference, before framing the Clause, those transport officers who had so much to do with motor transport throughout the War. I think he would find, as the result of all that experience, that it was absolutely essential to use the most efficient form of transport so as not to destroy the roads. It was a very serious question, especially in France, when the new rapidly built roads were employed, and practically no burden of over 4 tons could be efficiently carried. The general opinion of those who were responsible for so much motor transport throughout the War, and experience has proved it, is that 4 to 5 tons is the maximum efficient load which should be carried on any road, and under these circumstances I have no faith in the desire of the Minister of Transport to safeguard the roads of the country when he has missed the opportunity, as he has in this Bill, of prohibiting iron tyres, giving them fair notice, six or twelve months if he likes, with that peculiar form of rod steering. That is another point. Anyone who sees this heavy transport under way knows that the form of steering which some of them employ—

I was trying to apply myself to the question of heavy transport and to reply to the suggestion which the hon. Gentleman has just made, that we are quite safe in leaving all these matters in the hands of the Minister of Transport. I think the less we leave in the hands of any Minister and the more we debate this question, the better for the taxpayer and the road user. Is it yet too late to take power under this Bill to protect the road users and the taxpayers by prohibiting the employment of iron tyres with this heavy traffic.

That does not arise upon this Amendment at all.

Amendment negatived.

CLAUSE 20.— (Short title, commencement, and repeal.)

(3) The enactments set out in the Second Schedule to this Act are hereby repealed to the extent specified in the third column of that Schedule.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (3) leave out the word " Second " [" in the Second Schedule "] and insert instead thereof the word " Third."— [Mr. Weal.]

Second Schedule

Enactments Repealed

Amendment made: Leave out the word " Second " [" Second Schedule "] and insert instead the word " Third."— [Mr. Neal]

New Schedule

Second Schedule

Provisions as to Applications and Inquiries With Respect to Closing of Highways

(1) Every application by a county council that the driving of vehicles on any highway may be prohibited or restricted shall be made in the prescribed form and shall state the grounds upon which the application is made.

(2) The Minister, on receiving any such application as aforesaid, shall forthwith take

(3) The Minister shall publish in the London Gazette, and once at least in each of two consecutive weeks in some local newspaper circulating in the district in which the highway to which the application relates is situate, notice of the fact that an inquiry will be held to consider the application, and the notice shall contain sufficient particulars of the application, and shall contain a statement as to the time and place at which the inquiry will be held, and shall also state that all persons interested may attend and be heard at the inquiry.

(4) The inquiry shall be held in public and, subject as hereinbefore provided, all persons interested may appear at the inquiry either in person or by counsel, agent, or solicitor.

(5) A witness on the inquiry may, if the person holding the inquiry thinks fit, be examined on oath.

(6) Subject as aforesaid, the inquiry and all proceedings incidental thereto shall be conducted in the prescribed manner.— [Mr. Neal.] Brought up, and read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

First Schedule

Amendments of Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909

Section 8.—The following paragraph shall be substituted for paragraph (

" (a) to make to any highway authority advances in respect of the construction of new roads or the maintenance or improvement of existing roads, or to make such advances, in conjunction with a highway authority, to any company or person."

Sub-section (3) shall cease to have effect.

I beg to move, in paragraph beginning " Section 8 " after the word " person " [" company or person"] to insert the words " or to any company or corporation responsible for the maintenance of any road or part thereof."

My object in moving this Amendment is to obtain some light on the question of maintaining roads that are used by tramways. Last night on the Committee stage the Parliamentary Secretary said it was not intended that any grant should be made from the R Fund towards improving that part of a road occupied by a tramway owned by a local authority. That raises a very important point. The whole object of the Road Fund is the improvement of existing roads in the foundation, the structure and the surface. In Lancashire there are scores of miles of roads occupied by tramways. One of the main roads between Manchester and Liverpool, through Wigan, has a tramway all the way, and every main route radiating from Manchester and Liverpool and other provincial cities is occupied by a tramway. If no grant can be made out of the Road Fund in support of that part of a road occupied by a tramway, the difficulty in restricting this grant to highways is this, that while a grant may be made to rebuild side of the road and to put in, say, a concrete foundation of 12 or 18 inches thick, the centre of the road occupied by an old tramway on a bed only six or eight inches thick cannot receive any grant towards the cost of reconstruction. Therefore the highway where tramways exist will be reconstructed in a very patchy manner. It means that these highways will not be resurfaced and reconditioned in a proper manner to make them really fit for important traffic. On the other hand, so far as grants in aid of maintenance go, the whole cost of maintaining that part of the highway occupied by the tramway, that is, between the roads and 18 inches on either side, will continue to fall on the tramway undertaking, and through the tramway undertaking it will fall on the tramway passengers. Now that we are supposed to be acting on a basis on which the motor traffic will pay towards the maintenance of the road that it uses, surely the tram passengers or, in the case of a loss on the tramways, the ratepayers ought to be relieved as far as possible by the Road Fund is maintaining that part of a road occupied by a tramway. It is an important point. Every main highway out of Manchester or Liverpool where a tramway is now running will continue to be made at the cost either of the tramway passengers or of the ratepayers. I take it that the same thing will apply to the tramway tracks of the London County Council and other undertakings, and their passengers will have to pay in increased fares the whole cost of maintaining the centre part of the roads that are going to be used more and more for mechanically driven traffic. This extra cost of maintenance will fall on the tramway passenger or on the ratepayer. This has been an anomaly for many years. It is time to put it right, and I would appeal to my right hon. Friend that, if he cannot do it on this Amendment, he should undertake to consider the matter and put it right in another place. In county areas and places where there are no tramways this point does not arise; but in a great number of districts tramways have been developed, and roads, in consequence, are not too good for motor traffic, and it is absolutely essential to reconstruct the part occupied by the tramway as well as the side parts of the road. It is equally important that the central part should be maintained, not in the condition in which the tramway undertaking is obliged to maintain it, but in the better condition that is essential for the constantly increasing mechanically propelled traffic.

It seems to me that this is an attack by the tramway people upon the funds of the Road Board. All the tramway undertakings are under statutory obligation to maintain their part of the road, and if they were relieved of this they could only be relieved at the expense of the Road Fund. If the tramway company wanted to repair or relay its road it would have power under this Amendment to pull up a road and then call upon the central road authority to renew the road again. I think that this is a matter entirely for the tramway authority.

The purposes of this Amendment as I understand his line of thought, says on behalf of the tramway authorities, " Here is a sum of money. Let us get what we can of it." He has given a variety of reasons. One is that the portion of the road which the tramway authority are obliged to maintain may not be adequately maintained. I can reassure him as to that because it has to be maintained by law in accordance with the requirements of the road authority and to their satisfaction.

Maintaining to the satisfaction of the road authority. Apart from that this is a very much wider question than dealing purely with tramways. Tramways, waterworks, gasworks, railway companies and a variety of undertakings have to come from time to time under statutory obligations to maintain portions of the roads of the country. In the case of the tramway undertakings it may be true that the statutory obligation has to some extent become more severe as heavy transport on the road increases. It is tramway companies that are responsible for the concrete arch, for the setts, for the sleepers, for the ties between the rails, and it is not the road authority. The road authority prescribes and the tramway company has to fill up with setts between the rails and 18 inches on each side. The mechanical road users have provided a very large sum on the definite understanding that fifty per cent. should be paid of the cost of maintenance including improvements, such as strengthening and widening of first class roads maintained, not by tramway companies, but by the road authority. I do not commit myself as to whether the tramways are or are not obsolete, but they are under a statutory obligation to maintain that portion of the road. Now that the fund has been provided on an entirely different basis, it is monstrously unfair to suggest it should be used to relieve them of their statutory obligations. We came at their request to this House and asked that in order to enable them to meet the present very high costs they should have their statutory charging powers altered under the supervision of the Ministry. It entails a good deal of work. We are continually auditing their accounts, but in those charges are included the great cost of maintaining this portion of the road. My hon. Friend says, "They have got-their charges. Let the Road Fund be used to strengthen the road."It is the statutory obligation of the tramway companies to maintain the road. If it is a wrong one let them come to the House and not try to loot the Road Fund.

The right hon. Gentleman says, " Let these undertakings come and explain to the House." I will endeavour to do so and to show that his argument is monstrously unfair to a legitimate undertaking carrying on a great public service. The increased fares in nearly every case have not provided even a sufficient sum properly to maintain the undertaking in the inadequate manner in which they were maintained during the War. It is not a question of endeavouring to get hold of a bit of the Road Fund. The primary duty of a tramway undertaking is to maintain the rails and the road surface in proper condition, and no undertaking seeks to be relieved of its proper obligation. The right hon. Gentleman, however, says as the road authority, " I propose to make this road, formerly a water macadam road, into a heavy traffic road," though the tramway had carried and developed the heavy traffic which it could not carry before. He says, " You must put down a two-foot reinforced concrete underfeed to carry heavier traffic." Is it fair that they should say that for no purpose connected with the tramway it must rip up the road and put down this underfeed simply for motor traffic? I deny the suggestion that they should come to the Road Board saying, " Give us a bit out of that fund." The Road Board will regret that they have not this power when they want to make a road into a heavy traffic road, and are blocked because they feel it is impossible to impose such an obligation on any tramway. The right hon. Gentleman cannot get any protection by referring to the statutory maintenance obligations. His only protection is to arm himself with powers to make this grant so as to have a strong reconstructed road from kerb to kerb without a weak tramway in the centre. He spoke about the sums spent on widening. A certain London tramway spent £200,000 on widening the roads and maintaining the roads, and they have been mulcted in every direction. The company with which I am associated spent £42,000 in widening roads. These companies have never shirked their duties, and they should be protected by inserting this in the Bill, either here or in another place.

12 M.

I support the Amendment. We who live in a town know that the middle of the road is used by the heavy traffic as well as by the tramway. There was a reason for the obligation when the horse trams wore the roads considerably, but now you have the electric cars it seems to me that once having made the road the municipalities and the county councils and those who run the tramways ought to receive some assistance from the Road Board fund. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will seriously consider the suggestion which has been made to him. If those corporations which have not increased tram fares are called upon to reconstruct the roads they will be compelled to follow the example of other corporations and make an increase of fares. The roads are the common property of the people for the use of either light or heavy traffic on any part of them, and that being the case, I think the municipalities ought to be relieved of the cost of maintaining the centre of the roads. In this connection I should like to know if the corporations have the power to make a bye-law compelling any traffic to keep to one or the other side of the road.

I would like to contradict the impression that was obviously created by my remarks. I did not say that the tramway companies have not got in certain circumstances a hard case: I did not say that that case was monstrously unfair. What I said was that to come down on this Road Fund to relieve the tramways is unfair. I have a great deal of sympathy for the tramways, but this fund is not one which, in my opinion, can properly be drawn upon for the purpose of strengthening the roads. What the hon. Member opposite (Mr. T. Wilson) said was very illuminating. He said that these undertakings by the tramway companies have existed from the time when there were horse trams, and what has happened since? The horse tram has gone, and a very much heavier tram has come in.

It is for improving the roads for the purpose of fitting them for modern traffic, and not for the purpose of relieving other bodies of their statutory obligations. The Estimate of the expenditure upon which the proposals were submitted to the House and for which this taxation should be levied contemplated nothing of the kind. It is a special fund to improve the roads for mechanical transport, and not for trams. The trams pay 15s. They do not pay this tax because they provide their own road tax, and that is why they were exempted.

Why should a tram pay a large licence which is used for maintaining a road, a part of which it cannot itself use?

Trams pay 15s., but these vehicles which run on the rails pay nothing at all to this fund, the reason being that they have a statutory obligation to provide and maintain their own roadway. The reason why the motor vehicles have to pay the tax is that they help to provide the road. I think it would be monstrously unfair that the motor vehicles which do pay the tax should be obliged to contribute towards the maintenance of the roadway which the tramway undertakings have the statutory duty to maintain and strengthen because of the great weight of their vehicles. There may be a case at a later date for revising the tramway statutes, but this is not a Bill for revising the statutory charges imposed on the tramways and other undertakings, such as gas, electricity, and water undertakings. In this Bill the trams are specifically exempted from the taxation, and that seems to me to be really a sufficient argument to prevent this fund being used to maintain the roads over which the trams run. My hon. Friend asks why the trams should be taxed, seeing that they do not wear out the roads, but the answer to that is that they are not taxed.

Amendment negatived.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

Before the Bill is read the Third time, I should like to press two points upon the attention of the Minister of Transport. One is the question of the excise licence and the position in which it is to be carried. I raised this point on the Committee stage, and I did not get any answer from the right hon. Gentleman. Will he give an alternative position for the excise licence, in any Regulations which he may make, which will provide for a less exposed position than that already provided for in the Regulations which he has already drawn up? It is important, because owing to the weather the licence may deteriorate inside its case, and the motorist will be liable to be fined, and very likely will be fined, for having an obscured card. Secondly, with regard to the registration book, will the Minister, in making his Regulations, put something in which will provide for secrecy to the vendor of a second-hand car? It may be that anybody selling a car through an agent to a third party might not wish his identity given away. Will the right hon. Gentleman give us some sort of security in this way, so that we do not have to divulge our identity to the person to whom we are selling a car? The point is likely to come up very often, because there is a big business in buying and selling second-hand cars, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will make some slight concession in this respect.

We have reached the Third Reading of this Bill well above the legal limit. I still have about this Bill the same objection as I had on the Second Reading, namely, that it is a pity that it did not confine itself entirely to the machinery for carrying out the financial provisions of the Finance Act, and the Minister did not reserve all these contentious things we talked about so long for the Motor Omnibus Bill which he promised us in the spring. It has been extraordinarily illuminating, because through this Bill we have seen into the Ministry of Transport. We have been told that this is a grandiose Ministry with a superman in charge, but when we really get to grips with it what we expect to be a lion we find to be a lamb. There was a proposal to do a really useful and desirable piece of legislation—to alter endorsements on licences—but when it came to a dispute between this great Ministry and the Home Office, the officials of this great Ministry ran away from the Home Office with their tails between their legs before they even met the Home Secretary. We have been promised we shall get redress in another place, but we are not particularly sanguine. We were all a little frightened of the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary, but when we came to grips nobody could have been more courteous than they have been in what has been a difficult and extremely technical discussion.

I am sorry the hon. Member who has just sat down should have taken, not what should have been more the line of his own conscience, but the line of his own political future in the consideration of these matters. The hon. Member has been a motorist to my knowledge from the very early days. I remember him nearly 18 years ago when I first started on the roads. Ever since we started we have been victimised by the Government at every turn. There was an opportunity in this Bill of doing many necessary things, but the two most necessary things are conspicuous by their absence. The great thing the Ministry might have done was to render it impossible for people who have no knowledge whatsoever of driving motor cars from running wild on the road. They might have taken the opportunity of insisting upon some form of examination before people are allowed to drive motor cars at all. At the present time it is possible for any person—as it has been proved, even a dead person—to get a licence to drive a motor car. It is wrong to grant licences to individuals unless they have proved themselves capable of driving cars on the road. Another thing the Ministry might have done was to alter the foolish speed limit of 20 miles an hour, and put the onus of danger upon the motor car driver. These are two very essential things. What has been done is that we have a Bill before us that is as vexatious as it is vague. It places the motorist to-day in a position that it is utterly impossible for him to find out where he stands. On 1st January—14 days hence—all these Regulations come into force, and there is no opportunity for motorists to begin to comply with them—in time. Forms have to be filled in, and there will be such a rush that the thing will be left to the discretion of the various authorities as to whether or not we are guilty of transgressing the Act. Why the right hon. Gentleman has used his powers under the Act to make motoring more difficult, and the position of the motorist more unpleasant than previous Acts have made it, I really cannot see. There was the opportunity for a Bill which could have taken a pretty broad view of the whole motoring question, instead of which any excuse will do to raise the money the Minister wants for the upkeep of the roads. He has introduced a number of new and vexatious items that will vastly complicate the whole business and place us more at the mercy of—not that I would ever speak without deference of the police, of whom I think very highly—but there are many, especially the young fellows, who think that the chances of promotion are by multiplying the number of convictions they can get.

From experience the right hon. Gentleman knows how exceedingly vexatious it is to have all these restrictions. I have met the right hon. Gentleman many times, and have passed him in the Park—for one cannot fail to take notice of his excellent Rolls-Royce—and I have never seen him when he was not exceeding the speed limit. Here was the Minister breaking his own Act! He knows that no modern car on the road can keep to the foolish limit of 20 miles an hour, yet he asks the House to keep up this bogey! I only rose to express my keen disappointment at the whole of the Act. If the right hon. Gentleman has the support of the motoring industries of the country, as he tells us, then they are not representative of the many people with whom I have discussed the matter or the general opinion of the "man in the street." I am only sorry that there are not more in the House to impress upon the Government that this sort of vexatious legislation, bureaucratic legislation, is not necessary, and that it is the Government, and not we who oppose it, who are really wasting the time of the House.

Question, " That the Bill be now read the Third time," put, and agreed to.

Bill read the Third time, and passed.

Expiring Laws Continuance Bill

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Continuance of Acts in Schedule.)

(1) The Acts mentioned in Parts I, II, III, and IV of the schedule to this Act

SCHEDULE.

PART I.

1.

2

3.

4.

Session and Chapter.

Short Title.

How far continued.

Amending Acts.

(1) 3 & 4 Vict. c. 89.

The Poor Rate Exemption Act, 1840.

The whole Act

shall, to the extent specified in column three of that schedule, be continued until the thirty-first day of December, nineteen hundred and twenty-one, and shall then expire, unless further continued.

(2) The Acts mentioned in Part V of the schedule to this Act shall, to the extent specified in column three of that schedule, be continued until the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-two, and shall then expire, unless further continued.

(3) Any unrepealed enactments amending or affecting the enactments continued by this Act shall, in so far as they are temporary in their duration, be continued in like manner, whether they are mentioned in the schedule to this Act or not.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "and IV" ["and IV of the Schedule "], and to insert instead thereof the words "IV and V."

The first two Amendments standing in my name are consequential on the passing of the new Schedule which I have to move later. The Amendment which I propose to put in the proposed new Fourth Schedule is one that by inadvertence was omitted when the Bill was prepared. It gives a corresponding Section of the Irish Housing Act to those in the English and Scotch Housing Acts, which are already included in the Bill. If it is necessary I will say a word on that when I come to the Amendment, but I would ask the Committee to be good enough, at this stage, to pass these first two Amendments which are necessary in the event of the Committee's agreeing to the principal Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: "In Sub section (2) leave out the word ' V,' and insert instead thereof the word ' VI'." —[ Mr. Baldwin. ]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 ( Short title ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

I beg to move to leave out paragraph (2).

Hon. Members will notice that this refers to an Act called " The Textile Manufactures (Ireland) Act, 1840." Without going into details of that Act, I would like to read out its heading and the headings of its Sections, and I think hon. Members will agree with me that it is really absurd that this Act should be continued beyond the present year. This is the main heading:

There are one or two Sections which I need not deal with, but as my hon. Friend below me on my left (Mr. Sugden) is present and is an expert in textile work in this country, I would draw his attention to Section 23 of this obsolete Act. This deals with the penalties to be imposed on masters who do not furnish sufficient materials to the workmen, and who thereby keep them idle. The masters may be summoned before a Court of Petty Sessions.

Section 23 reads as follows:

"If any manufacturer or agent employing or obtaining any weaver or person shall not furnish him with a sufficient quantity of material to finish his work, or by withholding such material keep him or cause him to be kept idle, such weaver or person may summon such manufacturer or agent before a Court of Petty Session, and the justices presiding may on such complaint being proved before them award such weaver or person such fair and reasonable remuneration for any losses he may have sustained by the with holding of such materials as such justices may think fit."

Then it goes on to deal with the remuneration and the cost of seizing the goods and chattels, and so forth. That Clause deals with the old days of hand-weaving and hand-spinning and not with the present-day conditions. In Belfast, the great spinning and textile centre in Ireland, the works are on half-time, or else closed down altogether, through lack of material or lack of orders, yet under this obsolete statute every one of the operatives in Belfast, or any other textile centre, can summon the directors of the company for which they work for not providing them with materials sufficient to keep them in employ, bring them before a Petty Session Court, and have them fined or have their goods and chattels seized. That sort of thing is completely out of date, and I am surprised that this Bill has gone through year after year with this extraordinary statute included. I hope the Committee will support me in deleting it from the Schedule. This Bill deals with labour matters. We have passed through this House a Bill for the better Government of Ireland, it has passed through another place, and is almost bound to become law. One of the things that the local Parliaments in the North and the South can deal with under that measure is the relations between master and servant, employer and employed. If there is any sincerity about that Bill, what is the use of passing for another year this obsolete ordinance? It is undoing the work which we have put in through many weary sittings in this House, passing the so-called Bill for the Better Government of Ireland.

I have told the hon. Member on several other Bills that it is not competent to discuss the Government of Ireland Bill on every Bill affecting Ireland that comes up, nor do we assume that a Bill is going to be an Act until it is an Act.

I will not discuss the Bill any more, but in view of the policy of the Government I contend that this Act should not be continued for another year, for, over and above the reasons I have already given, it appears to me to be obsolete.

The argument put forward by the hon. and gallant Member is that the trade to which this Act was originally intended to apply is obsolete. He has made a great mistake. Weaving is by no means obsolete in Ireland. Not merely is it not obsolete, but this Act which has existed for over 80 years, was amended in 1867. Seeing that it has remained for 80 years, it might have escaped the attention of my hon. and gallant Friend now, because, according to his own argument, it will never again be continued by the Parliament here, but will come under the consideration of another Parliament. The last portion of his argument disposed of the first.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move to leave out paragraph (8).

I have read the Act, and it seems to me that this also is rather out of date. I see that it is proposed to continue the English Act, and I have not disputed that, because that is- a matter for the Government to decide; but with regard to the Irish Act it seems to me to be quite out of date and inapplicable to present-day conditions in Ireland.

If my hon. Friend's Amendment were carried, it would be illegal to utter a promissory note for £5 in Ireland. That would be quite impossible.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in paragraph (18), to leave out dead letter. If not, I would very much like the views of the Attorney-General for Ireland on the subject. In any event, I wish to say that this is a matter of domestic legislation affecting Ireland, and we now, I hope, have opened a new chapter—

I do not want to have to correct the hon. Gentleman on every occasion, but I must point out that this Amendment is nonsense. It proposes to leave out certain lines and to leave in others which would make the Bill nonsensical. I cannot, therefore, accept the Amendment, and I would ask the hon. Member to move his next Amendment.

I beg to move, to leave out paragraph (24). It seems to me that licensing ought not to be dealt with in a Bill of this sort.

The Act which the hon. Gentleman proposed to leave out was passed after full consideration, and restricts the number of licences which can be issued. Why, at this stage, we should leave out the Act passes my comprehension.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move to leave out paragraph (32).

The effect of this Amendment would be to remove the Grey Seal Protection Act from this Bill. What I desire to do is to call attention to certain defects in that Act, and I would briefly recall the history of the Act. Some years prior to the War the grey seal was in danger of extermination. This is a seal which is found in the North Atlantic. It is not migratory. It has its habitat in the tidal lochs and lonely beaches in the Orkneys, the Outer Hebrides, and as far south as Cornwall. It was found to be in danger of extermination, and accordingly, in the year 1914, a Bill was introduced into this House which became the Grey Seal Protection Act. It provides for a close season for the grey seal from 1st October to 15th December. It has been found by experience that that close time is not sufficiently long. I do not wish to discuss now the amendment of that Act in order to bring it up to date. Next year I hope to introduce legislation making the close time from 1st July to 31st December. What I wish to do now is to impress upon the right hon. Gentleman the fact that, although the Act is in existence, it can hardly be said to be in operation, and, as far as I know, there are many local authorities who are not aware of its existence. I do hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able, by the means at his disposal—I have no doubt that the hon. and gallant Member on his left (Sir John Baird) will give him some assistance to bring the influence of the Home Office to bear in the right direction—to issue such notices as are necessary and desirable in order to bring this Act to the attention of the local authorities in all the counties and districts around the North Sea, from Shetland and the Orkneys and the Western Isles down southwards, in order that they may put into operation such powers as they possess for the protection of the grey seal. I am credibly informed that a local authority—I will not mention the particular authority, it would be invidious—a year or so ago, although this Act was passed six years or so ago, was quite unaware of its existence. In view of the danger of the extermination of these very rare seals, I do hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to see his way to assist in the matter by issuing such directions as may be necessary.

I must apologise to my hon. and gallant Friend for the absence of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries. He is unavoidably prevented from being present, but he was good enough to show me various figures in relation to this matter. I had a conversation with him about it, and I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that, at the time the Bill was brought in, the attitude of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries was sympathetic. They recognised the necessities of the case, the comparatively lengthy period during which the young of these seals are helpless, and therefore a prey to any person who cares to destroy them. A very fair case has been made out for the attention of the Government. I think I can undertake to say that my right hon. Friend (Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen) will certainly take whatever steps may be necessary to advise the local authorities concerned—assuming that my right hon. Friend is correct in his contention—of the terms of this Act. I will undertake to report to him myself what my hon. and gallant Friend has said. I hope that will be satisfactory to my hon. and gallant Friend and that he will see his way to withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, to leave out paragraph (35).

This paragraph deals with the carrying over of the Aliens Restrictions (Amendment) Act, 1919. I beg leave to move this Amendment for two reasons. The first is that this Act has not been worked strictly as promised by the Home Secretary. I do not, of course, suggest that there has been any breach of faith on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary or the Parliamentary Secretary, but in practice this Act has been partially put aside. In particular, I would recall the pledge given by the Home Secretary in this House that, in the working of this Act, families would not be broken up. In particular, I refer to the cases where English women have married aliens or where alien women have married English men. In these cases a very definite pledge was given, both in Committee upstairs and on the Floor of this House, by the Home Secretary that the Act would not be so operative. In several cases that have been brought to my notice English women before the War by marriage became aliens. During the War their husbands were deported and the wives now wish to get their husbands back to them. In these cases, when there has been nothing criminal against these husbands, there has been great difficulty in getting them back, and the unfortunate husband and wife reunited. I have no complaint to make of the treatment I received personally in bringing these cases to the notice of the Home Office. Some of my constituents approached me—

The hon. and gallant Member has moved to leave out an Act in the Schedule. The functions we are now discussing are matters dealing with the Home Office. He has referred to some action or inaction of the Home Office. That cannot be done when considering legislation.

With all respect, Sir, I would submit that the Act was passed with an undertaking being given by the Home Office which probably affected the voting of Members. I think, Sir, that if I can show that that undertaking has not been, in practice, carried out—although through no personal fault of the Home Secretary— that that would be a reason why the Act should not be continued. But I pass from that. I want to thank the Home Secretary and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Home Office for their courtesy to me in the cases I have brought to their notice.

The second reason why this Act should be left out is that I consider this Act, especially as regards the arrests of persons of alien nationality re-entering this country, was passed at a time when hon. Members and their constituents had not recovered from the passions of war. Twelve months and over have now elapsed, and I consider that it is time to write a new chapter in the relationships between this country and foreign countries. All the Peace Treaties have now been signed—they have not all been ratified—and it is time to put this anti-alien legislation on one side. This is the first occasion on which this Act has been carried on in the Emergency Laws (Continuance) Bill, and it coincides with the meetings at Geneva of the first Assembly of the League of Nations, in the deliberations of which some hon. Members of this House have played a very honourable and worthy part. At this Assembly, I think it has been decided that two, at any rate, of the countries against which this Bill was aimed shall be admitted to the League of Nations. I appeal to the Government, if they cannot accept my Amendment now, at any rats to hold out some hopes that this Act will not be continued year after year in the Schedule of this Bill, in spite of the enmities of yesterday having been broken down, and new friendships started again. Those of us who take this view are not pro-Germans or pro-Bulgarians, or anything else; we are pro-English, and we feel that the English spirit, of which we have so much reason to be proud, is of tolerance and hospitality to the stranger within our gates.

I shall not be in order, I imagine, in replying to the hon. and gallant Member who has complained with regard to the administration of the Act. I invite him to give me any instances of the kind to which he refers and I feel I should have no difficulty in giving a satisfactory answer. The Act is in no way contrary to the spirit in which it was accepted by the House. As regards the second part, does not the hon. and gallant Member realise and does the House realise if this Act is not continued we should fall back upon the utterly inadequate provisions of the Act of 1914, which not only make it impossible to carry out a systematic control of aliens, but which control inflicts hardship upon the poorer members of the community and leaves out of account all those who are better off. I think the hon. and gallant Member is the last man in the House who desires to revert to that system, and I hope he will not press his Amendment.

I wish to support the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Member. I do not think the explanation given is quite satisfactory. It is only Section 1 of the Aliens Restrictions Act of 1919 that is to be continued by the Schedule of this Act, and that is the only Section at present which is the subject of this discussion. The whole of the remainder of the Act which deals specifically—

On a point of Order. The rest of the Act does not come within the Expiring Laws Continuance Act. It goes on of its own accord.

I am quite aware of that. That is the point I was endeavouring to make if the hon. and gallant Member will give me time to do it. But Section 1 continues the powers given by the Aliens Restrictions Act of 1914 which allows Orders in Council to be made with regard to certain specific matters. I do not remember them all. But they refer to the landing and embarkation of aliens, restrictions as to their residence, change of address, and various other things. These matters are not specifically set out as they are in the Aliens Restriction Act, 1919, but are left to Orders in Council. Sub-section 5, I think, of Section 1 of the Aliens Act, 1914, says that these Orders in Council can be revoked or altered at any time by His Majesty. That means that this Section which the Government are asking us now to continue in the Expiring Laws Continuance Act, gives them authority to pass any Order in Council at any time, to alter or revoke it; in fact, to leave it entirely in the discretion of the Government as to what shall be enacted with regard to these laws. I say that is a pernicious form of legislation. When the powers of making these Orders in Council were continued by Section 1 of that Act last year, it was deliberately restricted to the period of one year. The remainder of the Act, as the hon. Member says, continues, and there is need for it to be continued by the Schedule of this Act. Section 1 alone, which allows these Orders in Council to be passed needed extension, because it was restricted to the period of twelve months. That was done. The reason why it was restricted to twelve months was that this was extraordinary legislation which was, by the. Act of 1914, limited to the period of the War, the urgency and special emergency resulting from that condition. It was argued at that time that a temporary extension, until we had got completely free from the results of the War, should be given by Section 1 of the Act, but that it should be limited to twelve months. I say it is not fair to the House that at the fag end of a Bill like this, which appears to be merely the continuance of certain new Acts which are intended to be re-enacted every year, to insert a Section which there was never any intention at the time it was passed should be a new recurring Section, and for which the period of twelve months was deliberately imposed. The remainder of the Act of 1919, that is, last year's Act, deals very specifically with the question of aliens. It includes proper provisions to prevent them from stirring up sedition or disaffection; it deals with the special cases of pilots from ships and of foreigners employed on British ships as regards their landing and embarkation. This Act is now in force, and it is not

Preamble

WHEREAS the Acts mentioned in the Schedule to this Act are, in so far as they are in force and are temporary in their duration, limited to expire, as respects the Acts mentioned in Part I. of that Schedule, on the thirty-first day of December, nineteen hundred and twenty, and, as respects the Acts mentioned in Parts II., III., and IV. of that Schedule, on the twenty-third day of December, nineteen hundred and twenty, the thirty-first day of July, nineteen

necessary to continue this Section 1. The regulations for making Orders in Council were clearly to be imposed for the period of twelve months. It is going behind the backs of the House of Commons to come now and seek to have this power continued by means of a Section in the Schedule as if it was a recurring Act which it was necessary to impose every year. It is not necessary; it is simply perpetuating the iniquitous system of legislating by Orders in Council, and I think we ought vigorously to protest against its inclusion as if the matter was one of small importance, when they have ample powers to cover all the grounds which the House considered were necessary in dealing with aliens in the remainder of the Act. It is not playing fair to the House. I trust every Member of the House will protest at this late hour against continuing legislation by Orders in Council on a subject which has been amply and sufficiently dealt with by the other provisions of the Act of last year.

Amendment negatived.

The next Amendment in the name of the hon and gallant Gentleman (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) [in paragraph (35), column 3, to insert the words " four and five "] falls to the ground.

I am not quite sure that the other Sections are continued?

The hon. and gallant Member has just torpedoed the second Amendment by his first. We cannot go back upon the Amendment. His next Amendment would not make sense because he proposes to continue something that is already continued.

Amendment made: After paragraph (36), insert:

hundred and twenty-one, and the nineteenth day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-one respectively, and, as respects the Acts mentioned in Part V. of that Schedule, on the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-one:

Amendments made: Leave out the words " and IV," and insert instead thereof the words " IV and V."

After the word " twenty-one' [" thirty-first day of July, nineteen hundred and twenty-one "] insert the words " the fifteenth day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-one."

Leave out " V " [" in Part V "], and insert instead thereof " VI."—[ Mr. Baldwin. ]

Bill reported.

As amended, considered.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

I do not know if I would be in order in referring to the Aliens Act for a moment on this Third Reading. I understand that there is no discussion on the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill on the Second Reading, but the discussion is on the particular Acts on the Committee stage. If I would be in order—

No. The same rule applies to the Third Reading.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the Third time, and passed.

British Empire Exhibition (Guarantee) Bill

Read the Third time, and passed.

Women and Young Persons (Employment in Lead Processes) Bill

Order for consideration of Lords Amendments read.

Motion made, and Question, " That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendments accordingly considered.

CLAUSE 1.—(Prohibition of employment of women and young persons in certain processes connected with lead manufacture.)

It shall not be lawful for any person to employ any woman or young person in any of the following operations: —

(a) Work at a furnace, where the reduction of zinc or lead ores is carried on:

( d ) The manufacture of oxide, carbonate, sulphate, chromate or silicate of lead:

Lords Amendment: In paragraph ( a ), after the word " reduction,"insert the words" or treatment."

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

They are either drafting Amendments or Amendments put in to make the meaning clear. They do not in any way affect the meaning of the Bill as agreed at the conference.

Question put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendments:

In paragraph ( d ), after the word " of " [" of oxide "], insert the word " any."

After the word " chromate," insert the words " acetate, nitrate."

Agreed to.

CLAUSE 2.—(Regulations for employment of women and young persons in processes involving use of lead compounds.)

(1) It shall not be lawful for any person to employ in any process involving the use of lead compounds any woman or young person, unless the following regulations are complied with as respects all woman and young persons employed: —

( a ) Provision must be made for drawing away from the persons employed any lead dust or lead fume by means of an efficient exhaust draught so contrived as to operate on the dust or fume as nearly as may be at its point of origin:

( e ) Suitable cloak rooms and mess rooms, and such washing accommodation as may be prescribed, shall be provided for the use of the persons employed:

(3) A factory or workshop in which there is a contravention of this Section shall be deemed not to be kept in conformity with the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901.

Lords Amendments:

In Sub-section (1), after the word "person" [" woman or young person"], insert the words

" if the process is such that dust or fume from a lead compound is produced therein, or the persons employed therein are liable, to be splashed with any lead compound in the course of their employment."

In Sub-section (1,

"Provision must be made for drawing away from the persons employed any lead dust or lead fume,"

and insert instead thereof the words

"Where dust or fume from a lead compound is produced in the process, provision must be made for drawing the fume or dust away from the persons employed."

In Sub-section (1,

Leave out Sub-section (3).

Agreed to.

Lords Amendment:

After Clause 2, insert CLAUSE A ( Power to take samples ).

(1) Where an inspector under the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901, suspects that any substance used or intended for use in any process in which women or young persons are employed contains a lead compound he may at any time take for analysis sufficient samples of that substance.

(2) If the occupier of the factory or workshop in which any such process is carried on refuses to allow an inspector to take samples in pursuance of this Section or to give him facilities for the purpose, he shall be guilty of obstructing the inspector in the execution of his duties under the said Act.

Provided that the occupier of a factory may, at the time when a sample is taken under this Section and on providing the necessary appliances, require the inspector to divide the sample into two parts and to mark and seal and deliver to him one such part.

(3) In this Section the expression "occupier of a factory or workshop" includes any person employing a woman or young person in any process involving the use of lead compounds in any place other than a factory or workshop.

(4) A certificate purporting to be a certificate by the Principal Chemist of the Government Laboratory as to the result of an analysis of a sample under this Section shall in any proceedings under this Act be evidence of the matters stated therein, unless either party requires the person by whom the analysis was made to be called as a witness.

(5) It shall not be lawful for any person, except in so far as is necessary for the purposes of a prosecution for an offence under this Act, to publish or disclose to any person the results of an analysis made under this Act.

If any person acts in contravention of the provisions of this Sub-section he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds.

Agreed to.

CLAUSE 5.—(Interpretation)

In this Act—

The expression "young person" means a person who is under the age of eighteen years:

The expression "prescribed" means prescribed by Order made by the Secretary of State, and the provisions of paragraph ( a ) of Sub-section (3) and Sub-sections (4), (6), and (7) of Section seven of the Police, Factories, &c. (Miscellaneous Provisions), Act, 1916, shall apply with respect to Orders made under this Act as they apply with respect to Orders made under that Section.

Lords Amendment:

At end of Clause, add the words

"The expression 'lead compound' means any soluble compound of lead, which is declared by Order of the Secretary of State to be a lead compound for the purposes of this Act, and includes a mixture containing any such compound, but does not include an alloy containing lead:

The method of ascertaining whether any compound or mixture is a lead compound within the meaning of this Act shall be such as the Secretary of State may prescribe."

Agreed to.

The remaining Government Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after half-past Eleven of the clock upon Tuesday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Five minutes after One o'Clock.