House of Commons
Wednesday, December 15, 1920
Oral Answers to Questions
Mesopotamia
asked the Secretary of State for India what money is being spent during the current year in Mesopotamia on roads, railways, canals, and Government buildings; what money does he estimate will be required next year for these undertakings; and how does he propose to recover this capital expenditure?
With regard to the first and second parts of the question, I regret that I am not yet in a position to furnish the hon. and gallant Member with the information for which he asks. A telegraphic enquiry has been addressed to the High Commissioner, Bagdad, on the subject, but his answer has not yet been received. With regard to the third part of the question, I would refer the hon. and gallant Gentleman to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 7th December.
How is it that neither the right hon. Gentleman's Office nor the Chancellor of the Exchequer has any knowledge of the amount of money that is being spent in Mesopotamia on these undertakings? Are we to understand that the authorities in Mesopotamia have carte blanche to spend what they like without the knowledge of the right hon. Gentleman?
Surely the hon. and gallant Gentleman is aware that very serious disturbances have occurred in Mesopotamia necessitating the recasting of the whole Budget?
This is a question asking for the expendi- ture on permanent works, roads and railways, and surely some financial plan has been arranged limiting the amount to be spent on these works.
How am I to tell the hon. Member without reference to Bagdad? I do not know to-day how much money will be spent or how much of our original estimate has been spent.
India
Rupee (Depreciation)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has received any communication from the Manchester Chamber of Commerce on the depreciation of the rupee below 2s.; and whether he can now make any further statement on the action which the Government is taking or proposes to take to improve the rate of exchange?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I would refer my hon. Friend to the replies given yesterday to the hon. and gallant Member for North Kensington.
Bobbin Making
asked the Secretary of State for India whether the Indian Government is officially endeavouring to establish or assist a factory for bobbin making; if so, why such a matter cannot be left to private enter prise; and whether he is aware of the possible effect of such official competition on British trade?
My hon. Friend no doubt refers to a factory opened near Bareilly by the Government of the United Provinces with the object of testing on a commercial scale the suitability of Indian woods for the manufacture of bobbins. Private enterprise has hitherto failed to manufacture bobbins in India, but the experience gained at Bareilly, and the training facilities created, will, I understand, be placed freely at the disposal of manufacturers who contemplate the establishment of bobbin factories in India.
It is the intention of the Government of India and Provincial Governments to do all in their power to develop Indian resources and manufactures—a policy which, I am convinced, is in the best interests of India and the Empire.
Civil Service (Pensions)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has received a memorial regarding the pensions paid to members of the covenanted Civil Service; and whether any and, if so, what action has been taken thereon?
The memorial to which my hon. Friend presumably refers has been received and is now under consideration. I am awaiting an expression of the views of the Government of India, which they have been asked to expedite.
Coal Mining Districts (Agitation)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to paid agitation proceeding in the Indian coal-mining distrcts; whether the Government of India has traced the source from which the requisite funds proceed, and is taking such steps as it can to discourage agitation, which, resulting in dearer coal, must also result in delay in the industrial development of India?
I have received information that a general strike, said to be political in its origin, is threatened in the coalfields. The Government of India are dealing with the situation and promise to report developments.
Can anything be done to restrain two or three Parsees who, having forsaken money-making for mischief-making, are busily occupied in agitation in India?
I am not aware of the accuracy of my hon. Friend's description, but I understand that there are two cases in the High Courts.
New Council Elections
asked the Secretary of State for India what steps the Government of India is taking, in view of Mr. Gandhi's movement, to ensure free access to the polling booths in the elections for the new councils?
The elections to all the new councils must now be practically com- pleted, and from the information that I have received it appears that no difficulty was experienced by intending voters except in Lahore and Amritsar. Local Governments had directed district officers to take adequate but unobtrusive police precautions and had given wide publicity to the provisions of the recently enacted law imposing penalties for the use of undue influence, which includes threatening. It is clear from the report of the election difficulties in the Punjab, which I have just received, that armed police were protecting the polling places and officials in Lahore.
Are those who are interfering with polling rights in the Punjab the same gentlemen who were responsible for the rebellion and trouble some years ago?
I do not know. I understand that there are several prosecutions for offences against the electoral law.
Captured British Soldier
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has had any further news as to the capture or release of the two British soldiers by the Zakka Khel tribe in October last?
The Government of India inform me that the two soldiers were released on the 5th November.
Kyber Railway
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has any further information as to the commencement of the Khyber Railway; and whether the rail is to be continued through the pass on a broad gauge?
I have inquired but have not yet heard whether construction has actually begun. The railway is to be of the standard Indian 5 feet 6 inches gauge.
Royal Navy
Petty Officers
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the proposed entry of pensioners, chief petty officers, and petty officers (gunners' mates or torpedo gunners' mates) as instructors, recently announced by Admiralty letters, will in any way affect the promotion of existing ratings; whether they will assume superiority in instruction over active service ratings; and will he arrange that, whilst making the appointment of pensioners where necessary to fill the temporary vacancies, he will safeguard ordinary promotion from the ranks?
The entry of pensioner chief petty officers and petty officers will in no way affect the promotion of existing active service ratings. The sole reason for entering these men is that there are insufficient active service candidates passed and qualified for advancement to fill the existing vacancies. When there are sufficient, the pensioners will be discharged, and meantime the promotion of active service ratings will proceed as fast as fully qualified candidates are obtained. The pensioner instructors will assume the position due to their rating on re-entry and will be on the same footing as active service ratings as regards their instructional duties.
asked the Secretary of the Admiralty if there is any shortage of experienced seamen suitable in all respects for advancement to the rank of petty officer; if there be a shortage, if such shortage-is due to the inadequate pay offered to a petty officer; and if it is proposed to readmit petty officers who have retired recently and petty officers invalided out for slight eye or other troubles provided they are now in good health?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second part in the negative. In consequence of the War, however, and of the temporary shortage of schoolmasters, many of the experienced leading seamen have not been able to qualify educationally for petty officer. Some of these will be given the acting rate, pending an opportunity of study. With regard to the third part of the question, these proposals will not be adopted as a general policy, but some pensioners are being employed temporarily.
Battle of Jutland
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty on what date was Captain Harper and his staff appointed to write an account of the Battle of Jutland; on what date did these appointments lapse; what was the total cost of Captain Harper's Report, including the pay of Captain Harper and all the staff concerned with the production of this Report; and what use has been made, or is it proposed to make, of Captain Harper's Report?
Captain Harper was appointed for this duty on the 7th February, 1919, and was employed specially on it until the 31st July, 1919, when he became Director of Navigation and continued to supervise the compilation of the Record in addition to the ordinary duties of his office. Five officers have at various times assisted Captain Harper: the periods of their employment being as follow:—
Why has it not been made available to the Royal Navy Staff?
I never said that it was not available to the Royal Navy Staff.
Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman indicate to what portion he refers when he says that a portion of it will be laid before Parliament?
I think the Noble Lord would be wise to wait and see the Paper.
Has it been made available yet to the Royal Navy Staff?
I cannot say.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the instructions issued by the Admiralty to the Commander-in-Chief of the Grand Fleet, prior to the battle of Jutland, have been supplied to the Royal Naval Staff College for the use of officer-students and their instructors?
I must refer the hon. and gallant Member to previous answers on the subject of the supply of documents to the Staff College. I may add, however, that there were no instructions issued by the Admiralty to the Commander-in-Chief prior to the battle which could be of use to the Staff College.
Seeing that very important instructions were issued by their Lordships regarding the preservation of the Fleet, is it not absolutely necessary that they should be put into the hands of any student studying the battle and its lessons?
The answer is in the negative.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Admiralty are aware of any Report by Von Hipper, the German admiral commanding their battle cruisers, on the battle of Jutland; if so, have they a copy of it; and will a translation of this be added to the Papers which are already produced for publication?
The Admiralty are aware of the existence of such a Report, but as it has not yet been published even in Germany, it is not possible to add it to the Papers.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the official record of the battle of Jutland, which has been drawn up by Captain Harper and which is to be handed to Sir Julian Corbett, is to be in the exact form which has been concurred in by both Admirals of the Fleet, Viscount Jellicoe and Earl Beatty; and will Sir Julian Corbett have permission to publish it in this form in his official history?
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will reconsider the decision not to publish the official record of the battle of Jutland, which has been drawn up by Captain Harper, and which he has on several occasions promised should be published; whether, if on reconsideration it is published, the record will be in the form finally concurred in by both Admiral of the Fleet Viscount Jellicoe and Admiral of the Fleet Earl Beatty; and whether, if not published, this work of Captain Harper and his associates is to be destroyed or is to be preserved at the Admiralty, accompanied by any correspondence, written comments, or editorial notes which may have from time to time been made by the admirals concerned?
All the material, including Captain Harper's record, will be placed at Sir Julian Corbett's disposal, and this undertaking will be interpreted in the widest possible way. The Admiralty have no control over the use which Sir Julian Corbett makes of his material, and, therefore, so far as they are concerned, it is open to him to publish the material in whatever form he thinks proper.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is the case that, although this record is handed to Sir Julian Corbett, the Admiralty refuses all responsibility as to what he publishes?
All we possess in regard to what I have enumerated will be handed to Sir Julian. We have no control over him after that.
Will the book published by Sir Julian Corbett be regarded as the Official Naval History of the War?
I am not quite certain of the terms under which Sir Julian was asked to write the history of the War. He was asked to do so by the Committee of Imperial Defence, and not by the Admiralty.
Are the Admiralty going to allow these counter publications without any revision whatever? Can Sir Julian publish what he likes?
I understand that the Committee of Imperial Defence, when it entered into the agreement, imposed certain conditions, but I am not quite sure what they are.
Is it clear that the record of Sir Julian Corbett will have been concurred in by both Admiral Beatty and Admiral Jellicoe?
I think I am right in saying that is so, but I will inquire to make sure.
Principal Naval Powers (Destroyers)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the number of destroyers building for each of the principal naval Powers?
Six destroyers are in course of completion for Great Britain. The destroyers actually under construction for other Powers are as follow:—
According to the principles of the League of Nations, should there not be a reduction simultaneously with other Powers?
I could not catch the gist of the hon. Member's question.
Is the number of destroyers we are building based on the reduction foreshadowed by the League of Nations, and should there not be a reduction in the naval standard?
That is rather a nebulous question.
Light Cruisers
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the number of light cruisers over the speed and under the speed of 23 knots in full commission, in commission in reserve, the number paid off, the number scrapped since the Armistice, and the number building?
The numbers are as follows: In each case the first figures refer to vessels with a speed of 23 knots and over, and the second to vessels with a speed of under 23 knots:
Does the number in full commission include the light cruiser the " High Flyer " on the East India Station?
I would rather have notice of that question in order to make quite sure.
Submarines
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the number of submarines building for each of the principal naval Powers?
Nine submarines are in course of completion for Great Britain. The numbers in the case of other Powers, according to the latest official information are approximately as follow:
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it is a wicked waste of money for countries to compete with each other in the building of these ships?
That is a question of general policy.
Is it not the case that instead of competition on our part it is the other way, seeing that the proportions are 6 to 63 and 9 to 53 as compared with the United States?
I think hon. Members may rest assured that all this is borne in mind by the Admiralty.
Warships (Design)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether a Committee of experts and scientists has been set up to consider the future design of war vessels for the British Navy in the light of the experi- ence gained in the War; whether all the members of the Committee are free from administrative naval work at the Admiralty; who are the members of the Committee; and whether they will report to the Committee of Imperial Defence as well as to their Lordships?
A Committee of naval officers was set up last year to report, in the light of war experience, on the general design of ships. The Committee presented its Report in March, 1920. The members of this Committee were free from administrative naval work at the Admiralty. Beyond this no other Committee has been set up.
Has the Committee which is to report to the Committee of Imperial Defence yet been set up? Have the Admiralty nominated their members?
The Committee in question have already reported to the Admiralty, which is in full possession of the information contained in their Report.
Is it quite clear as regards the policy of building that the Committee of Imperial Defence will settle the question as advised by the Admiralty, and when the policy has been settled the Admiralty will set up a committee of scientists and experts to consider technical details?
I think that is practically what will happen.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will state the exact purpose for which a Technical Committee was set up by the Admiralty on 22nd December, 1904; and whether the vital question now before the country as to the value of capital ships in future warfare is a question of policy which could not, therefore, be remitted to a Committee similarly constituted?
The functions of the Committee on Designs which was appointed in 1904 are best described in their terms of reference, which are as follow:
"The Board of Admiralty have decided on the leading features of five types of vessels, and wish the Committee to assist the Board with their advice upon each type.
2. It must be clearly understood that it is no part of the function or purpose of the Committee to relieve the Director of Naval Construction of his official responsibility.
3. The Committee is to consider itself an advisory body of great value to the Board of Admiralty in consequence of the large and varied experience of its members, whose association with the Board of Admiralty in the consideration of new types of vessels containing so many novel features will lend great weight to the decisions arrived at.
4. The distinctive characteristics of these five types which are to be considered by the Committee are enumerated in the accompanying statement."
This Committee sat under the presidency of the late Lord Fisher, and it should be noted that not only the types but the leading features of the projected vessels had been decided by the Admiralty before the appointment of the Committee. The answer to the last part of the question is in the affirmative.
May I ask whether, in reference to the Committee of Naval Experts which has been set up, the Admiralty will consider the question of recalling the Committee and adding to it the best technical experts of the country?
I think my hon. and gallant Friend may well leave us to settle that.
Royal Hospital School, Greenwich
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the pensions of boys at the Royal Hospital School at Greenwich are taken by the school authorities when the boys are in residence; if such is the case, does the acquisition of these extra moneys release a corresponding sum from the Greenwich funds; and could the sum so released be set apart for paying fares in the event of the Transport Department declining to accede to any request for railway passes?
The pensions of boys who are admitted to the Royal Hospital School, Greenwich, are not paid to Greenwich Hospital. The other points raised in the hon. Member's question, therefore, do not arise.
Will these boys' fares be paid to the school or not?
I have said the pensions are not paid to the Greenwich Hospital.
I am asking as to the fares.
That is answered in the next question.
I see. I beg pardon.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the parents are being asked to send the railway fares to the Royal Hospital School at Greenwich, and that unless the fares are sent the boys will have to spend their Christmas holidays at the school; whether he is aware that the return fare to Devonport and Plymouth amounts to 34s., an impossible sum for a War widow to pay unless she allocates her pension for the purpose, and so leaves herself and family without the means of subsistence; and whether he can see his way to approach the Transport Department with the suggestion that these boys be given free railway passes for the Christmas holidays?
The facts are as stated by the hon. Member. Both the Transport Department and the railway authorities have already been approached with a view to the boys of the Greenwich Royal Hospital School being allowed to travel at reduced fares, and a concession has been granted; boys up to 15 years of age will be allowed to travel at half-fares for the Christmas holidays.
May I make a personal explanation. The order in which I handed my two questions in at the Table has been reversed by the Clerk at the Table.
I will reverse the hon. Member's questions in future.
Inter-Port Welfare Conference, Devonport
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what was the final Resolution of the Inter-Port Welfare Conference at Devonport?
As the answer is a long one, I propose to have it printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The following is the answer:
The final Resolution of the Inter-Port meeting at Devonport was as follows:
Chief of Naval Staff
49 & 50.
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether he is aware that the Field Service Regulations, 1920, issued by the General Staff, lay down that the chief of the Imperial General Staff is responsible to the Imperial Government for advice upon all questions of military policy affecting the security of the Empire; whether the chief of the naval staff is in a precisely similar position in regard to responsibility for naval policy to the Government, with similar direct access to the Government; and whether the constitution of the Admiralty in the form laid down by the Order in Council of 1872 is an obstacle to conceding as full a measure of responsibility and power to the Chief of the Naval Staff as to the Chief of the Imperial General Staff?
(2) whether he is aware that the Field Service Regulations of the Army lay down that the Chief of the Imperial General Staff is charged with the preparation in peace time of plans of offensive and defensive operations, together with the estimates of the forces required for their execution against any Power or combination of Powers with which the Empire, either alone or in co-operation with other Powers, might be brought into contact; whether the naval programme, now under inquiry, was prepared in like manner by the Naval Staff with the full responsibility of the Chief of the Naval Staff, Earl Beatty, or whether it is a programme for which the responsibility is shared by the civilian members and heads of Departments who are members of the Board; and if the latter is the case, whether the time has come to alter a system which has no relation to efficient preparations for War?
The positions of the Chief of Imperial General Staff and the Chief of Naval Staff are analogous. The inquiry to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers is no doubt that mentioned by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but this is not an inquiry into particular Estimates, but into the general naval position.
Ex-Service Men
King's National Roll of Honour
asked the Minister of Labour which of the borough councils in London are not as yet on the King's Roll; and will he state what replies he has had to representations made to them upon the subject?
asked the Minister of Labour the names of the borough councils in London which are already on the King's Roll of Honour?
The borough councils already on the King's Roll are as follows: Battersea, Bermondsey, Bethnal Green, Camberwell, Chelsea, Deptford, Finsbury, Greenwich, Hammersmith, Hampstead, Holborn, Islington, Kensington, Paddington, Poplar, St. Pancras, Shoreditch, Southwark, Stepney, Stoke Newington, Wandsworth, Westminster, and Woolwich. There remain five borough councils. Four of these, I am informed, have got the matter under consideration; either it is waiting to come before the council or before the general purposes committee. As the bodies in question will not be meeting, in most cases, for a week or so—in one case, not until the New Year—I would prefer to leave the matter at that for the present. In the case of the fifth, the matter is, I understand, being considered, not in respect of the employés of the council as a whole, but by departments. This is not entirely satisfactory, and I am writing to the council again.
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman does not consider that the question of unemployment is of extreme urgency, and whether he will see that the greatest possible pressure is brought to bear on the outstanding borough councils to force them to give work and to put themselves on the King's Roll at the earliest possible moment?
I agree as to the gravity and urgency of unemployment at present. We are doing all that we can to induce the local authorities to qualify on the King's Roll, and I have every hope that London will have all its borough councils on the King's Roll in a very short time.
Would it not act as a slight tonic if we were given the names of those who are not on the Roll?
I said last week that I would prefer to leave it for a week or two, and only to give the names of those who are on the Roll, as I have just done. If my hon. Friend would put down that question a little later, if I fail, it might be useful.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it time that the Government itself should begin to find employment—
Having regard to the Government record, I do not think that that is a fair retort.
That is not the point of my question at all. The point is whether it is not time the Government themselves should formulate proposals for giving direct employment to ex-service men.
The questions on the Paper refer to the King's Roll."
Building Trade (Dilution)
asked the Minister of Labour whether the negotiations with the building trades unions which have been in progress for the past 16 months to allow dilution so that at least 50,000 unemployed ex-service men may be employed in the building of urgently needed houses for the working classes have now been completed; whether there are at least 65,000 fewer skilled men in the building industry than there were in 1914; and whether he will assure the House that, in the event of an agreement not being arrived at between the Government and the trades unions before the House rises, the Government will themselves take such steps as may be necessary to secure the employment of these men in the building of houses, especially having regard to the prevailing distress which is being occasioned by their prolonged unemployment by reason of trade union regulations which they have been unable to comply with owing to the fact that they were fighting for their country?
I agree with my hon. Friend that in this very urgent matter discussion has been long protracted, and that in view of the very serious unemployment, especially amongst ex-service men, the matter must now be brought to a final conclusion. We are, therefore, asking representatives of the building trade operatives to meet us on Monday next, when we shall lay before them the definite and final proposals of the Government. Until we hear the result of that meeting, I prefer not to say what action the Government will take in the event of refusal. But the Government have come to the conclusion that no further delay in this matter is possible.
Are we to understand that on Monday next these negotiations will be finally concluded, and that no further discussion will take place, so that, after Monday, steps can be taken one way or the other to secure employment for these men, whose hearts are sick with long deferred hope?
My hon. Friend will have noted what I said, namely, that when we meet them on Monday next, we shall put before them the definite and final proposals of the Government.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Building Trades Federation agreed to accept something like 25,000 men of the age of 26 in the bricklaying, plastering and slating trades; and is it not a fact that at a meeting on the 3rd November there was a Government promise to give a reply on the 8th November, but that from that day to this they have not received one single line?
Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I ask whether, assuming my hon. Friend's facts to be accurate—
I have them here.
I have no doubt that they are accurate. Assuming them to be accurate, will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House why the Government should accept dilution to the extent of only 25,000 when the building trades are 65,000 short as compared with the pre-War period, and when there is five times the amount of building to be done?
Can the right hon. Gentleman inform the House whether in the proposals which the Government will submit, and which, I hope, will be accepted, he can guarantee to provide employment for 50,000 ex-service men, as stated in the question?
That is our hope and expectation. We really must find work for these men, and we propose to do so.
May I ask whether the-Government are prepared to give to the building trades a guarantee that, if the trade is flooded with this army of men, they will be found employment when there is a shortage in the building trade?
Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House some idea as to what these definite proposals are?
I am sure that my hon. Friend, as a trade union representative, will understand that the proposals should be put in the first instance before the trade unions concerned.
Will building be allowed by private contractors?
I do not know that that arises, but I hope we shall not preclude the possibility by controversial statements now.
Unemployment Insurance (Boarding Schools)
asked the Minister of Labour if he means to make boarding schools, which are classed as private houses for the purpose of making them pay inhabited house duty at the highest rate, take out unemployment books for their domestic servants, on the plea that such servants are not in the service of private householders; how does he pro pose to deal with domestic servants leaving employment in boarding schools for smaller private houses, or vice versa; and whether he can see his way to exclude from the operation of the Unemployment Insurance Act such schools in which the teachers are granted £30 extra in cash per annum for the special purpose of taking out endowment policies against their old age requirements?
Formal application has been made for a decision under Section 10 of the Unemployment Insurance Act as to the insurability of certain classes of domestic employment in boarding schools, and a decision will be published shortly. Certain classes of teachers are excluded from the Act by paragraphs ( e ) and ( f ) of Part II of the First Schedule, but there is no power to exclude teachers on the ground that £30 per annum extra is paid for the purpose of taking out endowment policies. In any event, teachers who receive a rate of remuneration exceeding in value £250 per annum are excepted from the provisions of the Act.
Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly say what he means by "shortly"?
There should be no delay. I will communicate with my hon. Friend directly I am able.
Unemployment
asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called, in view of the number of unemployed in London at the present time, to the proposal of the unemployed committee of the London County Council that all persons now unemployed and who were bonâ-fide in employment for not less than 12 weeks during the year previous to 8th November, 1920, should be entitled to a minimum of eight weeks' unemployment benefit during the year from November, 1920, to November, 1921, irrespective of the amount contributed; those already entitled to the same or a longer benefit under any of the existing schemes would receive the amount to which they were entitled; those who were entitled to two or three weeks would have the amount made up to eight, while those who were entitled to nothing would also receive eight weeks, and suggesting that the cost of financing same should be charged to the central fund; and whether he will consider the proposal and ask his Department, if possible, to put it in hand forthwith?
My attention has been called to the Report of the Special Committee on Unemployment to the London County Council, which I propose to bring to the notice of the Cabinet Unemployment Committee. As regards the proposal that unemployment benefit should be paid irrespective of contributions, I have already stated that I have no power to modify the provisions of the Unemployment Insurance Act in this respect. I would remind my hon. Friend that if a man works short time—indeed, if he is bonâ-fide employed even for one day in each of four weeks, and has accordingly paid four contributions—he is qualified for benefit under the Act.
asked the Prime Minister whether steps are being taken to study the measures now being considered and taken for dealing with the unemployment question in the United States and in Canada?
I have been asked to reply to this question. The latest official reports I have received concerning unemployment in Canada and the United States of America contain no reference to any special measures as being either in operation or under consideration for dealing with unemployment. I am, however, in correspondence with the International Labour Office at Geneva, which is now charged with the collection and distribution of such information, and will communicate the result of my inquiries to my hon. Friend as soon as possible. In the meantime, I should be glad of any information as to the action taken or contemplated in the United States and Canada which he has in mind.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that certain steps have been taken at the dockyards with regard to unemployment?
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will give me details?
( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the extremely serious state of unemployment at Wigston, Whetstone, Blaby, Countesthorpe, Fleckney, Kibworth, and the surrounding villages in the county of Leicestershire; whether he is aware that hundreds of unemployed men, many of whom are ex-service men, are compelled to tramp from eight to nine miles three times a week to report at the Employment Exchange at Leicester or Market Harborough; whether he is aware that the men are in a low physical condition as a result of their hardships and are not able to walk such distances in the present inclement weather without undue strain; and whether, having regard to the size of the population involved, and to the whole of the circumstances, he will make arrangements for the men to be registered in their own neighbourhoods?
I greatly regret to hear the statement of my hon. Friend. The men register at the nearest Exchange to them. If this involves, as it may do in remote districts, journeys such as my hon. Friend describes—not eight or nine miles each way, I think—I will at once issue instructions so that their registration may be covered with considerably less hardship to themselves than is apparently, in such cases as he quotes, at present the case.
Would the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of selecting as the most convenient centre?
I certainly will do what is necessary to obviate a walk of several miles. It is not, however, a case of walking eight or nine miles each way, as has been suggested. There is great hardship involved, and I will make registration possible with the least possible hardship.
Would the right hon. Gentleman state whether, before the Adjournment of the House, we can have an opportunity of discussing the whole question of unemployment?
That is a matter for the Leader of the House.
Then I ask the Leader of the House?
I am afraid I do not see any opportunity of taking it on a special day, but I think it would be very suitable to raise the question on the Consolidated Fund Bill.
Will the Leader of the House or the Prime Minister make a statement on the Consolidated Fund Bill or on the Motion for the Adjournment, and give this House an opportunity of debating the question of unemployment? Will the right hon. Gentleman have some programme put before the House before we adjourn to satisfy us that in the next two or three months the Government intend to do something?
I am afraid that question shows that the hon. Member has not followed the proceedings of the House. It has been stated very clearly what we have already done. If the opportunity arises we shall be ready to state that again.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the House is not satisfied with what the Government have done, and that the problem is still more acute now than it was a month ago, when the Government started their somewhat futile efforts?
I am aware that the problem is more acute, and is as serious as one could describe, but to say that the House is not satisfied is another matter.
Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to consider the possibility during the next three months of utilising some of the big camps in the country for giving warmth, accommodation, and food to the vast armies of unemployed in the various districts?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that up to the present all that has been done has been due to the promptitude of the Ministry of Transport, but that has only dealt with one section of labour, and there is un-dealt with a very large body of men not fit for that class of work?
Hon. Members must give notice of some of these questions.
Housing
Isleworth Houses
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that a deputation of building operatives have visited certain houses in course of erection in Twickenham Road, Isleworth, and have found that the floors are being laid and stairs are being fixed before the roofs are tiled; that some of the stair-treads are only nailed instead of being trenched; that felt is being used on the roofs in place of lead; and that the work in general is worse than that of the old-time jerry-builders; and whether he will have investigations made into the matter?
I have had the houses referred to inspected, and I am informed that the hon. Member's question does not correctly state the facts. I will send him a copy of the information which I have received.
Will the right hon. Gentleman meet some of the members of the deputation?
I shall be glad to have any information that the hon. Member has.
May I ask whether there is any substance whatever in the statements contained in the question?
I believe that the amount of substance in the statements is infinitesimal, but I will give my hon. Friend the information if I have it.
Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly send me a copy, as the same facts have been put before me?
Certainly.
Office of Works Schemes
asked the First Commissioner of Works the names of the various places where his Department are carrying out housing schemes, the number of houses at each place, and the number of men and staff employed in each scheme for the week ending 20th November last?
With the hon. Member's permission, I will have the information printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The following is the information referred to:
HOUSING SCHEMES FOR LOCAL AUTHORITIES. (In hand 20th November, 1920.) Scheme. Number of Houses. Total Staff Supervising and Operatives. Poplar 120 185 Camberwell 290 797 Finchley 200 169 Shoreditch 40 84 Richmond 114 126 Carshalton 186 192 Bedford 218 235 Just Commenced. Chester-le- Street 400 89 Yiewsley 203 58 Lambeth 80 67 Deptford 185 70 2,036 2,072
Questions
Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)
asked the Prime Minister whether the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) sits regularly to hear petitions, grievances, and representations from parties with public and vested interests to be considered; can he state what person or persons, or officers, or State servants, are in authority under the Board, together with a statement of salaries, functions, and powers of such persons or officers; and what control this House has over the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) officers and present restrictions?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. Representations of the nature indicated in the first paragraph of the question are dealt with both at the meetings of the Central Control Board, which take place as occasion requires, and also in the course of its current work, which, like that of other Boards and Departments, is performed through the machinery of an administrative staff. I suggest that it is unreasonable to ask me to give a list of the administrative staff of a Department, with details of their names, salaries, and functions. The money required for salaries and other expenses is voted by the House on Estimates annually presented to them in the usual form.
May I ask why the right hon. Gentleman cannot give the statement?
It is rather long; but I will give my hon. Friend any information that he desires.
Can he give to the House the attendances of the members of the Board?
I will see.
Russia
General Wrangel
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the proposal to transfer the arms from General Wrangel's forces to the Polish Government; whether these arms are to a large extent the British arms supplied to General Denikin; and whether the British Government proposes to allow the transfer, which can only have the effect of furthering Polish designs on the peace of Eastern Europe?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative; the second and third parts, therefore, do not arise.
Peace Treaties
Turkey
asked the Prime Minister if His Majesty's Government will consider the desirability of revising the Turkish Treaty, in order to make it conform to the pledges given by him on the 5th January, 1918, and subsequently confirmed by him in the House of Commons, when he stated that we were not fighting to deprive the Turks of the rich and renowned lands of Asia Minor an3 Thrace, which are predominantly Turkish in race? No doubt, owing to inadvert- ence, the date I put down when the Prime Minister confirmed what he had previously said has been left out.
I cannot add anything to previous answers given to my hon. Friend on this subject.
Is there any object in continuing to offend our friendly Mohammedan fellow-subjects for the sake of the ungrateful Greeks?
There is no object in continuing to offend anyone.
Dyestuffs (Import Regulation) Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether he has received a memorial signed by Manchester firms and companies, who are the largest manufacturers and distributors of cotton goods throughout the world, appealing to be heard by him before the Dyestuffs (Import Regulation) Bill is allowed to become law; whether he is aware that this appeal has since been signed by many hundreds of other firms of manufacturers and merchants, representing every section of the cotton trade, and that it accords with the formally declared views of all the labour organisations concerned; is he aware that a state of unparalleled depression exists in the cotton trade; and will he consent to hear the views of responsible leaders of labour and capital in the said trade before a Bill is made law which they regard as likely to be harmful to trade and employment?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. In view of the length of time during which the policy of His Majesty's Government, now embodied in the Dyestuffs (Import Regulation) Bill, has been before the country, and the fact that this Bill passed the Second Reading by a very large majority and is now under consideration by a Standing Committee of this House on which the questions raised in the memorial are being pressed by Members supporting the point of view of the memorialists, I do not think any very useful purpose would be served by the suggestion contained in the last part of the question.
Factory Drainage
asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that the bad sanitary conditions in factories and workshops are largely due to the insufficient drainage system in many areas, for which the local authorities are responsible, he will urge upon the local authorities the necessity of adopting improved standards and of giving employment to their unemployed men by schemes to remedy their defective systems?
As stated in my reply to the Noble Lord on 1st December, I am in communication with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on the question what action can be taken to improve the sanitary condition of factories, and I will bear in mind the suggestion made by the Noble Lord.
Has the Ministry of Health any power to contribute to schemes of drainage which have the dual purpose of finding employment for the unemployed and improving drainage?
Drainage is a public health duty cast upon local authorities.
Borough Extension Schemes
asked the Minister of Health whether, having regard to the decision of the Cabinet that the time is not opportune for initiating or putting into operation any reforms which involve further burdens on the rates, and that schemes involving expenditure not yet in operation are to remain in. abeyance, he proposes to take the necessary steps, by legislation or otherwise, to postpone all inquiries into extension schemes under Section 54 of the Local Government Act, 1888, until such time as the conditions which led to the Cabinet's decision have ceased to prevail?
In so far as I am legally empowered to do so, I will certainly take steps to discourage applications by local authorities involving expenditure which there is any reason to suppose is unnecessary. But in view of my statutory obligations, I am not competent to give any such general undertaking as my hon. Friend suggests, and I do not think such undertaking is implied in the statement made by my right hon. Friend.
Does the right hon. Gentleman overlook the fact that I suggested in my question that this must be done by legislation, and is he not aware that this House would welcome any proposals from him for limiting or reducing expenditure on these subjects?
I have made definite and specific proposals to the authorities concerned in this case, and none of them seemed inclined to abate their desire to spend the ratepayers' money. At this stage of the Session it is quite impossible to make any proposals for legislation.
Is it any use the right hon. Gentleman's Department promoting any more legislation in view of what happened yesterday?
I am not going to be deterred from doing what I think is right.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the proposals he made were utterly inadequate and quite useless for the purpose?
They may have been inadequate from the hon. Member's point of view, but they would have saved vast sums of the ratepayers' money.
Dentists Act, 1878
asked the Minister of Health whether he can now name a definite date for the introduction of the promised Bill for the purpose of carrying out the recommendations of the Depart mental Committee on the Dentists Act, 1878?
I hope to introduce the Bill on Monday next, in order that it may be printed.
Food Supplies
Flour
asked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that retailers of flour have been subject to a very severe loss owing to the action of his Depart- ment in reducing flour by 4s. per sack; and whether he intends to refund that amount per sack on the stocks they held?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Morpeth on the 8th instant.
Is the hon. Baronet aware that in some instances the losses reached as much as £200 on the stocks they held and will he not under those circumstances make some recompense to retailers who had such large stocks?
Was a circular issued from the Food Ministry to all retailers just prior to the reduction in the cost of this flour, and incidentally sugar also, telling them to get stocks in because of the coal strike, and seeing that some traders were at a loss of not £200, but £700, can something be done to compensate them?
The issue of the circular in the second supplementary question long ante-dated the last reduction. With reference to the first supplementary I cannot admit that the ordinary risks of a falling market ought to fall on the Government.
Has not the Ministry already promised that special cases of special losses will be considered?
In the case of wholesalers, yes.
Not of retailers?
Why should there be a distinction between wholesalers and retailers who are holding stocks?
In announcing the reduction the Minister was careful to explain that the public must expect the retailers to have some time before reducing the price of bread to work off their stocks. That does not apply to wholesalers.
Is it not a fact that retailers suffered in the reduction more than the wholesalers did in proportion?
No.
Bacon
asked the Minister of Food what is the quantity of bacon which has been sold for industrial purposes or shipped to the continent for such purposes since control was re-imposed on 9th August, 1919; what is the total loss on bacon not so disposed of, but on which allowances were made or which was sold at less than the control price since 9th August, 1919; are all the stocks of bacon requisitioned at that date now disposed of; and, if not, what quantity is still in stock?
With regard to the first two parts of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the replies given to the hon. Member for Plaistow and the hon. Member for the Wirral Division, on 22nd March and 23rd March respectively. All stocks of bacon requisitioned at 9th August, 1919, have been disposed of.
asked the Minister of Food what was the quantity of bacon bought by the Ministry in America under their policy of long distance buying in the beginning of this year; what were the price or prices paid for this bacon; has this bacon now all been shipped to this country; and, if not, what quantity is still to be shipped?
This information would be of the utmost value to market operators in America at the present moment, and I am not prepared to give it so long as the Government are still buyers.
Stores, Middlesbrough
asked the Minister of Food if he is now in a position to state what is the total quantity of foodstuffs stored in the Middlesbrough area, giving full particulars of the quantities on the Tyne and Tees Shipping Company's wharf warehouses there; how long the bulk of the materials has been in stock, the date of the last deliveries into store, the total amounts cleared since 30th June last, and the condition of the materials now in stock; and will he state to whom the coffee belongs which is stored alongside the Ministry's foodstuffs if it does not belong to the Ministry?
I am unable to give a detailed statement of all the stocks of foodstuffs held in the area referred to by the hon. Member, but the only stocks held by the Ministry of Food consist of 20 tons of butter and a certain quantity of flour, part of which is stored in the Tyne and Tees Shipping Company's Wharf and Warehouses at Middlesbrough. This flour is part of the emergency reserve to which I referred in the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth on the 13th inst. It is regularly inspected, and the most recent reports as to its condition are satisfactory. The Ministry have no coffee stocks there or elsewhere.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some of this flour has been there for some years. There are 19,000 sacks, and in the meantime a large quantity has been brought over from Liverpool at great extra expense, whereas this flour in an unsaleable condition is now in stock in Liverpool?
The last report I received, no longer ago than yesterday, does not confirm the hon. Member's statement as to its condition.
Travelling Inspectors, Devon and Cornwall
asked the Minister of Food why it has been found necessary to appoint, within the last few days, three travelling inspectors for Devon and Cornwall under the Ministry, in view of the Government's statement that the Ministry was being wound up; what are the duties of those inspectors; and what are their respective salaries?
No inspectors have ever been appointed by the Ministry of Food for the counties of Devon and Cornwall, and no inspector has been appointed in the South-Western Division, of which these counties form part, since 1st July last. The number at present employed has been reduced to nine, and further reductions will take place at the end of this month.
Is the hon. Baronet aware that a letter was sent by his Department on 6th December informing the local committee that three officers have been appointed, and giving their names—two majors and one captain?
I am not aware of that, otherwise I should certainly not have given the answer I did. I shall be very glad if the hon. and gallant Gentleman will let me see the letter.
If I satisfy the hon. Baronet that what I have said is true will he take steps to cancel the appointments in view of that fact?
I will certainly inquire into the matter at once.
Sugar Production, Jamaica
asked the Under- Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can give particulars of the central sugar factory in Jamaica; and whether that factory is intended to deal mainly with cane grown principally by smallholders?
I have been asked to reply. The proposed central sugar factory in Jamaica will be capable of an output of 10,000 tons annually, and a consulting engineer is shortly proceeding to the Colony to advise the Colonial Government as to the most suitable process of manufacture, the choice of machinery and other details. As stated in my reply to the question asked by the hon. Member on the 3rd November, the factory will deal with cane grown by smallholders whom it is the policy of the Government to encourage; but, in view of the magnitude of the scheme, it is not possible to rely mainly on cane from that source.
Labour Recruitment, Kenya Colony
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the protest which has been made in the Tanganyika territory against the proposed recruitment of labour from that territory for the Kenya Colony; and whether His Majesty's Government still hold that it is not inconsistent with the spirit of the mandatory system to recruit labour from a mandated area for the benefit of another territory?
No, Sir, but I see no inconsistency with the spirit of the mandatory system in permitting the engagement under adequate safeguards, of voluntary labourers for work in an adjoining territory. As a matter of fact, the Governor of the Tanganyika territory recently reported that the recruiting officer whom the Government of Kenya had sent to the territory had been unsuccessful in obtaining a sufficient number of labourers, and had therefore paid off the men whom he had engaged and had returned to Kenya.
British Army
Royal Horse Artillery, Driver T. Willacey
asked the Secretary of State for War if he will inquire into the long delay in effecting a settlement of the accounts of Driver Thomas Willacey, L/9136, Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery; and will he see that a. settlement is made at once?
The last pay certificate of Driver Willacey has not yet been received from India. Every endeavour has been, and is being, made to expedite the despatch of all outstanding last pay certificates, and every assistance is being given to the Indian authorities to facilitate the early rendering of these forms.
Uniform (Abuse)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the abuse of His Majesty's uniform by persons soliciting alms in public places; whether he has taken any steps to investigate the circumstances of these persons; whether he will consult with the Minister of Labour with a view to taking such action as may be possible to assist the deserving cases; and whether he will take steps to put a stop to the practice?
Cases of infringement of the Uniforms Act, 1894, are dealt with by the police authorities, and no such cases as described in the question have been brought to the notice of the War Office. I would point out that ex-officers and ex-soldiers are permitted to wear articles of service dress uniform as civilian attire provided badges and shoulder straps are removed and the buttons exchanged. As regards the latter part of the question, I am informed that the matter has already been considered by the Government Departments concerned and the necessary action taken. As the hon. and gallant Member is no doubt aware, begging in public places is an offence against the Vagrancy Act, under which fraudulent cases would be dealt with. Any cases of genuine hardship would, I understand, be referred to the Local War Pensions Committee.
Hope Will Trust
asked the Attorney-General how it is that a settlement of the Hope Will Trust R 589/R has been so long delayed?
I am asked by the Attorney-General to answer this question. I understand that a portion of the funds in this trust became distributable by reason of the death of one of the life tenants on 20th December, 1918. Difficulties arose as to the construction of the trust instrument giving rise in the first instance to negotiations for a family arrangement, which proved abortive, and afterwards to an application to the Court. The proceedings in Court were not definitely completed until June last. A distribution on account was made in August last, and the final account, preliminary to the final distribution, is now in course of circulation to the beneficiaries. It is not correct to suggest that there has been delay.
Is it not a fact that it is two years since the Public Trustee decided to apply to Chancery in this case, and is not two years a long period to deprive these people of their money?
I must ask for notice of that question. I have no further information.
Prudential Assurance Co. War Bond Policies
81 and 82.
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether his attention has been drawn to the War Bond Policies of the Prudential Assur- ance Company, Limited; if he will state how many such policies have been issued up till 31st October, 1920; how many are still in force; the number that have lapsed and the amount that has been paid in premiums on the lapsed policies;
(2) whether permission has at any time been given to the Prudential Assurance Company to print on their proposals and policies the words National War Bonds and War Stock Certificates; and, if not, will he state what action the Government propose to take in consequence of use being made of such national designations for the making of private profit?
I have been asked to answer this question and the next. I would refer the hon. Member to the answers given by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull on the 22nd July and the 16th August last, of which I am sending him copies.
Trade and Commerce
Anti-Dumping Bill
asked the President of the Board of Trade if the proposed legislation concerning dumping will be so framed as to protect such overseas industries against foreign competition in the home market as sugar, rice, cotton, and other raw materials and foodstuffs?
My right hon. Friend cannot make any statement as to the scope of the measure to deal with dumping before its introduction.
Baking Industry, Wages Board
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will take into consideration the objections held against the suggested establishment of a wages board for the baking industry, inasmuch as there are already established in all parts of the country local conciliation boards composed of employers and employés for the purpose of dealing with any questions and disputes with regard to wages and conditions of labour that may arise, and which it is contended can be settled more amicably and more effectively by the local conciliation boards than by wages boards?
I have been asked to answer this question. Strong representations have been made to me by employers and operatives in favour of the establishment of a trade board for both the production and distribution of bread, pastries, and flour confectionery. It is my practice in considering whether to apply the Trade Boards Acts to any trade, to take into account the views of all parties interested, but the recommendations made by the operatives for the establishment of this trade board are based largely on the allegation that the local conciliation boards, which exist in some districts, but not all, do not provide adequate means of regulating the rates of wages throughout the industry. My Department is at present making investigations into the conditions of the trade, and my hon. Friend may be assured that before taking any decision on the information obtained by this inquiry, I shall give both sides the fullest opportunity for expressing their views.
Transport
Sheffield and South Yorkshire Navigation Company
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the present position of the Sheffield and South Yorkshire Navigation Company and to the danger that may arise to the trade of the district by its threatened closure; whether he is aware that this danger arises by the diversion of traffic by Government requirements during the War; and whether he will use all his influence with both the Mines Department and the Food Controller in order to restore this traffic and so save the navigation for the trade of the district?
My attention has been called to the position of the Sheffield and South Yorkshire Navigation Company, and inquiries have been made as to the circumstances to which the hon. Member refers. I am informed that the decline of the coal traffic to the Humber by this canal was due to (1) the canal being out of order and requiring dredging; (2) the keel owners refusing to send their craft for coal, as they earn more money at Hull; and (3) the railway rates being lower than the canal rates. I am, however, in communication with the Minister of Transport on this subject.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that there is some moral obligation on the part of the Government to make every effort to restore traffic on this canal, considering that it was through the action of the Government that the traffic during the War fell off?
I do not see that I can judge of the moral obligation of the Government. I think that should be addressed to a higher quarter.
Waterford and Fishguard Mail Service
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that, under present arrangements, consequent upon the cessation of the Rosslare-Fishguard boat service, all mails from Waterford and the South of Ireland for South Wales and London must go via Kingstown and Holyhead, so that, for example, a letter posted in Waterford before 2.45 p.m. on Monday is not delivered in South Wales until late on Tuesday night or Wednesday morning: whether this loss of time, and consequent inconvenience to business, could be remedied if the Great Western Railway Company carried out their statutory obligations and ran the daily service of boats from Waterford to Fishguard, and restored the 4.55 a.m. train from Fishguard, arriving at Paddington at 10.45 a.m.; and whether he will take the necessary steps to set this matter right?
The Fishguard-Rosslare boat service ceased to be available for the conveyance of mails in July last; and the suspension is, as the hon. and gallant Member suggests, a drawback to letters or other postal packets sent between the South of Ireland and South Wales. The present Waterford-Fishguard service is not sufficiently certain and regular to be used for letter mails, but I will consider whether it can be used, at all events during the Christmas season, for parcel mails. Having regard, however, to the circumstances in which the suspension of the mail service by way of Rosslare was forced upon the companies concerned, additional expenditure upon the taxpayer in order to replace it would not be justifiable.
I am obliged to the hon. Member for his reply, but would ask him whether he is not going to enforce the statutory obligation on the Great Western Railway Company to have this daily service between Waterford and Fishguard?
It is true that the Great Western Railway Company is under an obligation to run a daily service, but this arises out of what has happened in Ireland.
Is it the intention of the Great Western Company permanently to give up the Rosslare and Fishguard service?
That does not arise out of the question, but I will consider the matter again and see if any further information can be given.
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the great disability which trade in the city of Waterford and the South of Ireland generally is experiencing owing to cessation of the Rosslare-Fishguard boat service to South Wales, Bristol, and London since the coal strike; whether the Great Western Railway Company, the owners of the Rosslare-Fishguard service, have another line of steamers from Waterford to Fishguard, which previous to the construction of the Rosslare route carried the mails from Waterford, and that this company are under statutory obligations to run a daily service between Waterford and Fishguard, but for some time past have only run a tri-weekly service and additional boats when cargo offered; whether this unsatisfactory service causes undue delay and business inconvenience to the Southern Irish traders; and whether, pending the resumption of the Rosslare-Fishguard service, he will call upon the Great Western Railway Company to fulfil their statutory obligations and run a daily service from Waterford to Fishguard, and also restore the 4.55 a.m. train from Fishguard arriving at Paddington at 10.45 a.m.?
No representations have been received by the Great Western Company or by the Ministry of Transport that any disability is being experienced owing to the suspension of the Rosslare-Fishguard service. The cargo service was discontinued owing to the refusal of the railway employés to handle certain traffic. The passenger service was subsequently discontinued in consequence of the miners' strike, and the connecting trains in Ireland were withdrawn. The services have not been restored owing to the abnormal conditions existing in that country. I understand that the present tri-weekly service with additional boats as required is meeting the needs of the traffic; and my right hon. Friend does not therefore feel called upon to take any action in the matter. In view of these facts, the point raised in the last part of the question, as to the 4.55 a.m. train from Fishguard, does not arise.
Does the hon. Member mean to say on behalf of the Government that it does not intend to enforce a statutory obligation upon the railway company to have steamers daily plying between one port and another of this United Kingdom?
I cannot accept the position that it is the duty of the Government to enforce all statutory obligations on railway companies or others. There are other means of enforcing them without Government action.
Why cannot the Government enforce this obligation?
There are special reasons.
What are the reasons:
The special reasons why the Government think they should not interfere are set out fully in the answer.
Is the hon. Member aware that the railway men's strike has absolutely nothing to do with steamships plying between Waterford and Fishguard, and as regards the employment of men in Waterford, they are perfectly free as their is the greatest unemployment there, and there is the reason why the Government should not enforce this statutory obligation?
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Royal Engineers (Corporal Dawkins)
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he has received any representations from the Can nock board of guardians with regard to the case of Mrs. William Dawkins, widow of the late Corporal Dawkins, Royal Engineers, whose recent death was certified to have been due to disease caused by and aggravated by service in the Army during the War; whether the Ministry have refused pension and allowances to Mrs. Dawkins and her two children, aged 1 and 2, respectively; and whether he is aware that, as a result of this refusal, Mrs. Dawkins and her children have be come chargeable to the rates.
I am not aware of any medical certificate regarding the cause of this man's death, such as is suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend. Mrs. Dawkins' claim to pension was very fully considered, but, as the medical authorities were unable to accept the disease from which the late soldier died as being either due to or aggravated by his service, no award of pension could be made. The widow has exercised her right of appeal against this decision, and the case is being prepared for hearing by the Pensions Appeal Tribunal.
Has the right hon. Gentleman received replies from the boards of guardians concerned?
No, but I have seen the only medical certificate in the office this morning, and it supports what I have stated.
If in such a case as this it is indisputably proved that death was due or aggravated by Military service, has the right hon. Gentleman any power to reverse the decision of the Pensions Committee?
That is not this case at all. In this case the only medical certificate, a certificate from the man's own doctor, implies that he did not die from disease aggravated by or attributable to service.
Herring Industry, Scotland
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether his attention has been drawn to the announcement that no further financial assistance will be given to the Scottish herring industry and to the fact that serious unemployment may ensue in the industry as a result of this decision unless effective means be taken to avert it; whether he is aware that the trade in cured herrings is very largely of an export nature, approximately 80 per cent, of the catch in normal times going to Continental markets; whether it has been brought to his notice that, prior to the outbreak of the Great War, Russia was one of the biggest customers for Scottish herrings; and whether, with a view to assisting the serious situation in the Scottish herring industry and to lessening the possibilities of grave unemployment amongst its 50,000 or so workers, he will hold out prospects that trade in herrings will speedily be reopened with Russia and that, if necessary, a scheme of barter will be arranged to overcome any financial difficulties?
I am aware of the facts stated by my hon. Friend in regard to the herring industry and that Russia was one of the principal markets for cured herrings before the War. As regards the last part of the question my hon. Friend is aware that negotiations are now proceeding with the Russian Trade Delegation, and I would refer him to the reply given by the Prime Minister on the subject on the 13th December. In the event of trade being resumed with Russia, I shall be glad to render any assistance in my power with a view to assisting those engaged in it to conduct their operations by any practical means.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very urgent nature of this problem, and will he now set on foot steps in order to enable this scheme of barter to be arranged at the earliest possible moment after trade has been reopened?
I am aware of the urgency of the situation, and I will do everything practicable, but, personally, I am not hopeful of the prospect of carrying on trade by barter.
Will the right hon. Gentleman not allow his personal hopes to stand in the way of any arrangement if it is possible?
Certainly they will not stand in the way of any practical steps. Everything practicable will be carried on, but I am not hopeful that trade can be done in the way suggested.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that unless some arrangement is made many of the fishing ports on the East and West of Scotland will be absolutely ruined?
I am afraid that is so.
Post Office
Telephone Charges
asked the Postmaster-General if, before the new telephone charges are made in respect of existing telephones, holders will be given the option of terminating their contracts with the Post Office; and, if so, if he has considered the possibility of the loss of thousands of clients and the consequent lessening in value of the remaining telephones?
As a preliminary step to the introduction of revised telephone charges each existing contract will be determined by three months' notice. Each subscriber will receive a full statement of the new rates and a fresh form of agreement for consideration some weeks at least before his present agreement expires. If the proposals now under the consideration of a Select Committee are adopted, I hope that only a small number of subscribers will give up the service.
Temporary EmployéS
asked the Postmaster-General whether his Department has recently given notice to the temporary émployes in the various postal branches to terminate their engagements forthwith; will he state how many men are affected and what is the reason for the dismissal of these servants; whether he is aware that some of these men were medical rejects and over age for military ' service and have given good service to his Department during difficult days of the War; and whether he will reconsider any special cases of men who have families and other dependants relying on them?
asked the Postmaster-General if his attention has been drawn to the fact that a large number of temporary employés have received notice to terminate their employment on 1st January, 1921; whether he is aware that a large number of these employés are ex-service men who were wounded during the War; and whether, in view of the serious state of unemployment prevailing in the country, he will have immediate inquiries made into the matter and, if possible, the notices withdrawn?
Notice has been given to some of the temporary employés in the Post Office that their services will no longer be required after the Christmas season, but I cannot state the number. These men were engaged in a temporary capacity during the War as substitutes for members of the regular staff serving with the forces; and now that normal conditions are being restored, I regret that they must give way to ex-service men who are being engaged for permanent appointments. The Post Office is pledged to give all available posts to ex-service men, and it is impossible to make exceptions in favour of individual civilians. Long notice has been given, and this cannot be extended. I hope that most, if not all, of the temporary war substitutes who are ex-service men will be absorbed into the permanent establishment of the Post Office. I am not aware that such men are being discharged, except possibly in isolated instances, and if particulars can be furnished to me of any ex-service men who have received notice* to be discharged, I shall be glad to have immediate inquiry made.
Ireland
Fires, Cork
I wished to ask the Chief Secretary two or three questions with regard to Cork. You, Mr. Speaker, have been kind enough to inform me privately that you regard one of the questions in the form in which I put it as not coming within the rules of the House. I therefore curtail that question, and put all my questions together as follows:
1. Has the right hon. Gentleman any information which will point to the authors of the recent incendiary fires in Cork?
2. Whether his attention has been called to cases of looting, and brutal assault committed on civilians including a priest in Cork by servants of the Crown as alleged; and whether any attempt has been made to identify the perpetrators?
3. What provision do the Government intend to make for the compensation of property owners and for the support of the large body of working people who have been deprived of their means of livelihood?
4. Whether any of the men who murdered a man called Delaney and attempted to murder his father have been discovered?
My right hon. Friend has no evidence that such action as is referred to has been taken by armed forces of the Crown. Until he has such evidence he declines to believe for one instant that the suggestion contained in the question is correct. If the hon. Member has any evidence that any such acts as those to which he refers have been perpetrated by servants of the Crown he will doubtless consider it his duty to communicate it at once in order that it may be considered by the military court which is considering these matters. So far as the question of compensation in Cork is concerned, until the report of the inquiry which is now being conducted by General Strickland is received I do not admit that any property has been maliciously destroyed in Cork by armed forces of the Crown, or that any workpeople in that town have been deprived of their means of livelihood by such action. In reply to that question as to whether the Government have information as to the origin of the incendiary fires, the answer is in the negative.
When do the Government propose, in response to the universal appeal of newspapers which support the Government, to appoint an impartial commission of inquiry to consider all these allegations?
That is a question which the hon. Member must put on the Paper. We have discussed the question of an inquiry over and over again, and it was for that reason I asked the hon. Member for the Scotland Division to put down his question in the ordinary way.
Is it not within the province of a Member of this House, when allegations of the most serious character touching the lives and property of citizens are made, to ask for an immediate impartial inquiry to find out who is to blame for outrages that are a disgrace to civilisation?
This question has been asked and answered repeatedly. That is why I say that any further questions on the matter should be put on the Paper.
Martial Law
(by Private Notice) asked the Leader of the House who is now the Minister responsible to the House for those areas in Ireland in which martial law has been proclaimed?
The Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.
Are we to understand that, notwithstanding the fact that martial law is in existence in Ireland and that the military forces are now on active service in Ireland, and notwithstanding the further fact that military governors have been appointed in those areas, the Secretary of State for War is not the responsible Minister?
No, Sir; the Minister responsible to this House is the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant. It is hardly necessary to state, for the hon. and gallant Member is well aware of it, that the theory and practice of Governments, ours as well as others, do not always tally. As a matter of fact, even before martial law was proclaimed, it was partly done by the General Officer Commanding. In theory he ought to have been under the War Office. In reality, as long as the Government are united, there is no difficulty in the matter.
Are the military governors in this area under martial law or under the jurisdiction of the civil authorities?
No; martial law means that the rule is the rule of soldiers, and if the hon. and gallant Gentleman will carry it a little further he will find that ultimately it comes back to the rule of this House.
Are we to understand that there are two authorities in this area, and that when questions are put concerning eventualities that may take place in this area, one Department will say that it is not within its purview, but that it rests with another Deparment?
I have given the answer. The Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant is responsible for any question or for any acts that are done in Ireland.
Does it come to this that the martial law put into operation in Ireland is not martial law in the ordinary sense, but that it is under the jurisdiction of Dublin Castle?
No, it is martial law in the sense in which martial law has always been proclaimed and acted upon in any part of the country.
In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, would it not be advisable to have removed out of this area all kinds of police, such as have been removed already out of the area of the City of Cork, and to leave the whole district under the sole and supreme authority of the General Officer Commanding?
No, I am afraid that both the soldiers and the police are needed.
By whose authority and for what reason have the Auxiliary Police been removed from the city of Cork?
They have been removed on the authority of the General Officer Commanding in Cork. I do not know for what reason, but I presume because he thought they were not wanted.
Is it because they were responsible for all the destruction in that city?
My right hon. Friend has stated over and over again that up to the present he has received no evidence whatever that that is the case. Until evidence is forthcoming we have no right to assume that it is so.
Does the right hon. Gentleman persist in stating that no evidence as to the responsibility for these fires and this destruction has been presented in face of the fact that such testimony has been given, not merely by the correspondents of the most respectable papers in this country—
We are really getting back to the same point. I must ask the hon. Member for the Falls Division (Mr. Devlin) to put the question of which he has given notice.
(by Private Notice) asked the Attorney-General for Ireland whether the Order for Disarmament which has been issued in the Proclamation of General Macready extends to Ulster as well as to the rest of Ireland, and to all sections of people in that Province as well as elsewhere, irrespective either of religion or of political opinion?
The Proclamation issued by General Macready under the powers conferred on him by the Proclamation of martial law naturally applies only to the area in which martial law has been proclaimed. Within that area the Proclamation applies equally to all sections of the population.
May I ask whether a precise declaration was not made by the Chief Secretary for Ireland in a speech delivered in this House, in which he stated that he proposed to rake Ireland from end to end in order to gather arms from all those who were not entitled to carry them, which meant all the citizens of the country? How far has he been successful in that effort, in Ulster as well as elsewhere?
I am sure that if such a statement was made by the Chief Secretary he has acted upon it, and he has the powers both under the Restoration of Order Act and the Firearms Act, and special powers exist in the area covered by martial law.
What has been the result of his efforts to take those arms that are held in Ulster, and which are at present being used against peaceful citizens?
The hon. Member must give notice of that question.
Business of the House
4.0 P.M.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what business he proposes to take on the remaining days of this week; and, with regard to the question asked by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for the Duncairn Division of Belfast (Sir E. Carson), whether an opportunity for discussing unemployment will not arise on a Supplementary Estimate which has still to come before the Committee; and, further, with regard to the Motion which stands in his name, whether he intends to take any of the Civil Service Estimates, including the one for the Labour Ministry, after 11 o'clock at night, when, in all probability, the Division on the Army Supplementary Estimate will be taken.
I hope that we may make some progress with the Supplementary Estimates to-night. My right hon. Friend is quite right; there is a Supplementary Estimate for the Labour Department, which is caused specifically by the expenditure to deal with unemployment. It is for the Out-of-Work Donation. It might well be, however, that the Consolidated Fund Bill would provide a more suitable opportunity for a discussion on unemployment.
To-morrow we propose to take the Lords Amendments to the Government of Ireland Bill, the Report stage of the Juvenile Courts (Metropolis) Bill, Civil Service Supplementary Estimates, the Committee stage of the Official Secrets Bill, the Committee stage of the Married Women (Maintenance) Bill, and, if there be time, the remaining stages of the Dyestuffs Bill. If necessary, we shall ask the House to sit on Saturday for the same purpose.
Does not my right hon. Friend think it unfair to the House and unjust to the public who take an interest in these matters that these Civil Service Supplementary Estimates, totalling altogether £8,000,000, and including labour, the Ministry of Transport, and the question of Foreign Office payments with regard to Russian prisoners—matters of the first importance of that kind— should not be taken at a fair hour in the day for discussion? May I also ask him a question, of which I have given him Private Notice, in regard to the Dyestuffs Bill? Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Committee has been asked to sit until 8 o'clock to-night, and does he consider that such an arrangement is in accordance with the statement which he made and the general understanding arrived at when these Standing Orders were passed, that, when matters of first-rate importance, such as there are to-day, were taken on the Floor of the House, the Standing Committee upstairs should not be asked to sit until such a late hour?
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Committee has been sitting since 11 o'clock on Monday morning almost continuously, and that in the ordinary way this Bill might have been back on the Floor of the House?
If the discussion on the Ministry of Labour takes place on the Supplementary Estimates, will not the discussion be limited to purely questions of administration, and therefore preclude a discussion of the general problems of unemployment and further remedies, and, in view of that fact and the probability of other subjects having to be discussed on the Consolidated Fund Bill, could he not see his way to give a day for that discussion?
Could not the right hon. Gentleman give the time already allotted to the Partition Bill for Ireland for the discussion of these other matters of much more importance?
It is rather difficult to remember all these subjects. The suggestion of the hon. and gallant Member would not meet with so much favour in some quarters as that we should drop the Dyestuffs Bill. It is obvious that we cannot please everybody, and we are not trying to do so. It is not desirable and we would much rather not take the Supplementary Estimates after 11 o'clock, but it is necessary to take these Estimates before the House rises, and, as I explained before, we are doing it because we think that we are meeting the general convenience of the House. If that be not so and the House prefers to sit on, the Government are quite willing. With regard to the question about the Standing Committee on the Dyestuffs Bill, I do not know what my right hon. Friend means by the statement made by myself, but it was one of the subjects of debate pressed most strongly that of necessity the Standing
Committee would interfere with the conduct of business in this House. We recognise that, but it is left to the Standing Committee themselves to judge whether they should sit or refrain from sitting. In this case they have decided to sit, and I think they have decided rightly.
Having regard to the importance of unemployment, will the right hon. Gentleman give us an opportunity of taking it before 11 o'clock by some means or other, and will either the Prime Minister or himself open the Debate so that we may know the Government's intentions?
I think the Consolidated Fund Bill would provide a more suitable time, and, so far as the Government can arrange it, we will arrange to have the discussion then.
In spite of the fact that, as regards some Members, especially Members living at a distance in Scotland, it is very inconvenient to have to come back, 'does not the right hon. Gentleman think that this House would be acting more in consonance with its duty to the public and its own dignity if it rose for Christmas and sat again immediately, and devoted proper attention to these great subjects of finance?
It is very important that the House should devote proper attention to finance, but there may be a difference of opinion as to the amount of time that is necessary for that proper attention.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House an opportunity of voting on the question whether we should sit after Christmas or not?
I do not think that it is necessary.
Motion made, and Question put,
" That the Proceedings of the Committees of Supply and Ways and Means and on the Married Women (Maintenance) Bill [Lords'] be exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."— [Mr. Bonar Law.]
The House divided: Ayes, 213; Noes, 59.
Division No. 406.] AYES. [4.8 p.m. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Armitage, Robert Balfour, George (Hampstead) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Astbury, Lieut-Commander F. W. Barnett, Major R. W. Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dem Atkey, A. R. Barnston, Major Harry Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Barrand, A. R. Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Baird, Sir John Lawrence Barton, Sir William (Oldham) Beauchamp, Sir Edward Goff, Sir R. Park O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Beckett, Hon. Gervase Grant, James A. Ormsby-Gore, Captain Hon. W. Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Greig, Colonel James William Parker, James Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Gritten, W. G. Howard Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Bennett, Thomas Jewell Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Pearce, Sir William Betterton, Henry B. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Bigland, Alfred Hailwood, Augustine Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l.W. D'by) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Hambro, Captain Angus Valdemar Pickering, Lieut.-Colonel Emil W. Blair, Reginald Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Pilditch, Sir Philip Blake, Sir Francis Douglas Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Boles, Lieut.-Colonel D. F. Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Bowles, Colonel H. F. Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil) Pratt, John William Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Hickman, Brig.-General Thomas E. Pulley, Charles Thornton Bridgeman, William Clive Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Purchase, H. G. Briggs, Harold Hinds, John Rae, H. Norman Brittain, Sir Harry Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Raeburn, Sir William H. Bruton, Sir James Hopkins, John w. W. Rankin, Captain James S. Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Remnant, Sir James Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G. Renwick, George Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's) Hurd, Percy A. Roberts. Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Butcher, Sir John George Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Rodger, A. K. Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington) Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Casey, T. W. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Cautley, Henry S. Johnstone, Joseph Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Seager, Sir William Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Clough, Robert King, Captain Henry Douglas Shortt, Rt. Hon E. (N'castle-on-T.) Cockerill. Brigadier-General G. K. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Cohen, Major J. Brunel Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Stevens, Marshall Collins, Sir G. P. (Greenock) Lane-Fox, G. R. Stewart, Gershom Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Sturrock, J. Leng Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Sugden, W. H. Courthope, Major George L. Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lindsay, William Arthur Sutherland, Sir William Craig, Capt. C. C (Antrim, South) Lloyd, George Butler Taylor, J. Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lorden, John William Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley) Curzon, Commander Viscount Loseby, Captain C. E. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Davidson, J. C. C.(Hemel Hempstead) Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhilt) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray Thorpe, Captain John Henry Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers Dean, Lieut.-Commander P. T. McMicking, Major Gilbert Turton, E. R. Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Waddington, R. Donald, Thompson Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent) Doyle, N. Grattan Magnus, Sir Philip Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Edge, Captain William Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Wason, John Cathcart Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) Marriott, John Arthur Ransome Wigan, Brig.-Gen. John Tyson Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath) Mason, Robert Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Elveden, Viscount Moles, Thomas Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.) Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Molson, Major John Elsdale Wilson, Capt. A. S. (Holderness) Falcon, Captain Michael Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M. Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Wilson-Fox, Henry Fildes, Henry Morris, Richard Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) FitzRoy, Captain Hon. E. A. Morrison, Hugh Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Forestier-Walker, L. Mosley, Oswald Woolcock, William James U. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen) Yeo, Sir Alfred William Gardiner, James Murray, Major William (Dumfries) Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Nail, Major Joseph Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Gilbert, James Daniel Neal, Arthur Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Glyn, Major Ralph Nield, Sir Herbert Mr. W. Ward and Mr. Parker.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Raffan, Peter Wilson Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) Hallas, Eldred Redmond, Captain William Archer Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Hayward, Major Evan Rendall, Athelstan Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Cairns, John Hirst, G. H. Rose, Frank H. Cape, Thomas Irving, Dan Royce, William Stapleton Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R. Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Sexton, James Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) Lowther, Lt.-Col. Claude (Lancaster) Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Devlin, Joseph Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) Mills, John Edmund Sitch, Charles H. Finney, Samuel Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Smith, w. R. (Wellingborough) Glanville, Harold James Myers, Thomas Spencer, George A. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Newbould, Alfred Ernest Swan, J. E. Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) O'Connor, Thomas P. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Grundy, T. W. O'Grady, Captain James Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Thorne, G. R.(Wolverhampton, E.) White, Charles F. (Derby,Western) Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Tillett, Benjamin Wignall, James Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Tootill, Robert Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Waterson, A. E. Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. w. (Stourbridge) Mr. Hogge and Mr. Hodge.
Bill Presented
MERCHANT SHIPPING ACTS AMENDMENT BILL,
"to amend the Merchant Shipping Acts, 1894 to 1920," presented by Sir HERBERT NIELD; supported by Lieut.-Colonel Morden, Mr. Lort-Williams, Sir William Joynson-Hicks, Sir Ernest Wild, Commander Viscount Curzon, and Mr. Mitchell; to be read a Second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 265.]
Married Women's Property (Scotland) Bill
Lords Amendment to be considered Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 266.]
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Public Works Loans Bill,
Little Longstone Congregational Chapel Charity Bill, without Amendment.
Women, Young Persons, and Children (Employment) Bill,
Criminal Injuries (Ireland) Bill, with Amendments.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, " An Act to amend The Diseases of Animals Act, 1896." [Diseases of Animals Act Amendment Bill [Lords.]
Women, Young Persons, and Children (Employment) Bill
Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 268.]
Criminal Injuries (Ireland) Bill
Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 267.]
Ministers' Remuneration
Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence, brought up and read.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 241.]
Dyestuffs (Import Regulation) Bill
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee B.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 242.]
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 242.]
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Friday, and to be printed. [Bill 269.]
Orders of the Day
Supply
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
Army Supplementary Estimate, 1920–21
Motion made, and Question proposed,
" That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £39,750,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charges for Army Services which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, to meet expenditure not provided for in the original Army Estimates of the year in respect of the Garrisons in Mesopotamia and elsewhere, of National Factories and other Services transferred from the Ministry of Munitions, and of Charges arising out of the late War."
I have this afternoon the unpleasant duty of asking the House of Commons for very nearly £40,000,000 more money for the Army Estimates of the year, and it would have been very nearly £50,000,000 but for the fact that there have been certain windfalls and certain considerable savings on the ordinary expense of the British Army. Of the £40,000,000, £20,000,000 is new money, and £20,000,000 represents no additional new charge to the Exchequer. Throughout I am going to use round numbers; it is easier to follow and easier to give a general picture, and there are, of course, the Estimates, which enable more precise particulars to be obtained. There have been approximately £10,000,000 of savings and windfalls. The windfall is represented by the rebate on the price of wool, which saved us £3,500,000; the savings have been partly voluntary and deliberate and partly involuntary, but the prime saving was involuntary, the one that is the root of the other—I mean that the Territorial Army, growing much more slowly than we hoped, has not earned the full provision which we made for it in the Estimates of the year. We have got a third of the men necessary to complete the establishment of the Territorial Army. I do not doubt that we shall ultimately reach our full figure, but it will take much longer than was originally expected, and there is a substantial saving on that head.
The fact that the Territorial Army is our first care at the present time has made it necessary for me to postpone the special call for 80,000 men to replenish the Reserve of the Regular Army. As the Committee knows, that Reserve grows each year as men leave the service, but it has been thought necessary, and Parliament has given me £1,000,000 in the Estimates last year for the purpose of rapidly expanding that Reserve, without which, of course, we are unable to mobilise our Regular Army. Owing to the fact that if I came on the recruiting market of the country for 80,000 men at 1s. a day to join the Army Reserve, with hardly any duties in the way of drills and so on in times of peace, I should certainly compete adversely with the Territorial recruiting, I thought it necessary to give priority to the Territorial Force, and I have postponed the Army Reserve; and for similar reasons I have postponed the Militia or Special Reserve, which is an essential part, like the Army Reserve, of our ordinary, regular, peace-time Army organisation, but I fear that both of these must wait till the Territorial Army has had a real, fair chance of seeing whether it can fill up to full strength. There are £2,000,000 savings from that, and there are certain minor savings which are the fruits of departmental efforts. The result is that there is a saving of between £8,000,000 and £10,000,000, but this is almost entirely absorbed by the necessity which we have been under of increasing the number of soldiers with the Colours in whole-time, regular employment. We have increased them, as I have stated in my explanatory Memorandum on the Supplementary Estimate, up to a total of 236,000 men, as against 214,000 for which we had provided. That increase is necessary first and foremost because of the disturbed condition of large portions of the British Empire, and, secondly, because of the temporary nonexistence of those Reserves on which the Army has been able to rely on all other occasions. It is true we have about 20,000 more men with the Colours than we expected, but we have only a third of the Territorial force, we have less than a half of the Army Reserve, and we have no Militia or Special Reserve, a measure dictated alike by the weakness of our ordinary military forces, and by the exceptional strain which is put upon them.
Is the Special Reserve to be used in the old sense of draft-finding units?
Yes, it is intended to use it as draft-finding units, but in addition it is hoped that it might be assigned, perhaps at a later stage, a definite combative value in the event of a war breaking out. An organisation is to be provided for that purpose. As I was saying, the increase of strength with the Colours is justified and rendered necessary from those two causes, and I think on the whole it has been wise to postpone the development of these reserves. After all, we are not expecting a great war. We cannot imagine that there will be a great war this year, or next year, or in the next four or five years. We cannot imagine a condition which will call upon us for an immediate mobilisation of our whole Army. On the other hand, the period through which we are going is one which makes it indispensable that we should have as large a number of men with the Colours, within certain limits, as we can get in order to maintain the semi-peace, semi-military duties on which the peace and order of the Dominions of the Crown depend at the present time. As the result, this increase in the number of men with the Colours, plus the rise in prices and railway rates and other automatic increases under the various decisions that have been arrived at, this increase of the British troops balances the savings which have been made in the Department and the windfalls which have accrued to us; that leaves me, and the Committee, face to face with the approximately £40,000,000 Estimate which I am now presenting, and I am now going to account for this £39,750,000, or what I call for simplicity this £40,000,000 Estimate, now before the Committee.
I said just now that half of that, roughly speaking, was new money, new expense which the Committee is asked to sanction, and a half of it is paying War bills. You can no more escape from paying bills for the War than you can escape from other bills which commonly present themselves at this season of the year. There is no use arguing about it or being angry about it; it has got to be faced, and it has got to be met. Let us look into these War charges. The greatest of all these charges is the repayments which we have to make, to India, of moneys claimed to have been dispensed by her for stores and supplies issued during the course of the War. A charge of £10,000,000 has been imposed upon us quite recently for that. I am advised that it is my duty to take authority from the House of Commons to defray that charge in the present Estimates.
At the same time, I think that the charge will require further investigation and discussion between the Departments. We have already had from India, as each bill for the supply of stores issued to the troops during the War has been made out and finished, the bill in instalments, and this £10,000,000 represents the final working out of the Indian account, and it is coming for the first time on to Army charges. My relations with my right hon. Friend, and the relations of the War Office with the Government of India are, I need hardly say, of the most satisfactory description. The Government of India had to disburse the most enormous sums of money on our behalf. They have lent us very large numbers of troops, for which they charge us the full cost, and they have supplied locomotives and stores of all kinds during the War, not only for Mesopotamia and Persia, but also for East Africa, and these bills are now coming into the account.
According to the Resolution of the House of Commons, the arrangements made between the two countries are that all the excess over the grant for the War which India made should be defrayed by the British taxpayer. India is in what is called a fiduciary position to the War Office with regard to the expenditure of this money. That is, they are bound to charge us not a penny more than we are actually liable for, and I have no doubt that is the spirit and intention in which these accounts have been compiled. At the same time, in considering this, it is better there should be two pairs of eyes looking at an account of this kind, than that it should be compiled solely in India by those, none of whom have any direct interest in the British taxpayer, and my right hon. Friend has agreed with me that this final settlement of the War account with India shall be subject to a further investigation, and, if necessary, impartial arbitration on disputed points. There may, for instance, have been some of these stores used in the Afghan Campaign—we are not sure—in which case, that would be a charge against India. But I have been advised that it is best for me at this juncture to take a Vote from the House for this sum of money. There is another charge from India of £1,500,000, which is due to her for the locomotives which she supplied in the War for Mesopotamia and some for East Africa. These locomotives have been used in those Campaigns. They are now to be handed over to the civil government of Mesopotamia and East Africa, and the War Office is obliged to put them back in good condition before they hand them over, and on this account there is a charge of £1,500,000. In the next place there is a charge of £1,250,000 for the Assyrian and Chaldean refugees, who have been gathered together, some at Basra, but the main party at Batum. These unfortunate people were driven out of their country in the convulsions of the War, and we have found the greatest difficulty in disposing of them ever since.
The amount does not appear here.
I am giving a general account. The Estimate of course follows the prescribed course for the Army Estimates. They are not graded by locality or period, but according to the class of Estimates, and that is why our Estimates afford such a very small key to what is going on, unless you give at the same time, as I am trying to do, a lucid and detailed explanation. There is £1,250,000 due on account of the maintenance of these refugees. These refugees are charged on Army funds, and we have never ceased, week after week, and month after month, to urge that they should otherwise be disposed of. It was hoped they might be induced to move from Batum to their own country before the winter set in, but, unhappily, the disturbed conditions which prevailed there led to their turning back after they had gone some distance, and, although we had encouraged them to proceed by the gift of field-pieces and other munitions, they are still upon our hands in a very helpless condition. [An HON. MEMBER: " How many of them? "] There are about 16,000. There is another batch of about 10,000 Armenians gathered at Basra. It was hoped to send them back to Armenia, and shipping had been arranged for, but the unhappy state of things in Armenia rendered that course quite impracticable. There they are. It is perfectly easy to resent their being there, but it is not quite so easy to see what next step is to be taken, when you have these starving women and children on your hands. I need hardly say that only one view prevails in the Government and, I imagine, throughout the House of Commons, that we should be quit of our responsibilities to these poor people as quickly as possible.
Then there is the repayment to the Ministry of Shipping for restoring to normal conditions the transports hired by us during the War. The Ministry have asked us to provide £3,750,000 for this, additional to what we took. They now lead us to hope there may be a slight rebate upon that. That is, of course, a War charge. The transports, before they are handed over to their owners, have to be put straight after the use made of them by troops and even by horses. There is an item of £750,000 for the working pay of the German prisoners who were in France, which we have to pay under the Treaty. We have no choice whatever about it. These men earned their money, and we have to pay it under the Treaty. We cannot deduct it from the sum owing by Germany to us, because such sums are dealt with by the Reparation Commission under the Treaty, and we have to pay the money. There is £750,000 for arrear charges due to the East African Protectorate during the War. During the War the East African Rifles, which usually stood at four to six or eight battalions, were raised to something like twenty to thirty battalions, and maintained at that level. The charge has now been disentangled from the account of the Protectorate, and we are advised it must be taken into the Army accounts. The total of those figures amounts practically to £18,000,000, giving it broadly. As I say, it is quite impossible for the House to decline to meet these charges. None of them have been incurred in the present year, but all are part of the aftermath of the War bill, and I should like to remind the Committee that, as against these charges which arise out of the War, enormous receipts are being realised, under the auspices of the Disposal Board, by the sales of stores, to the purchase of which some of these very charges contributed, so that really the two sides of the account must be considered together. There are the War receipts and there are the War aftermath charges.
I pause for a moment to ask myself again the question which I asked of the Committee last night, as to whether this practice of putting all the War charges, the liquidation charges, upon the cur rent Estimates of the fighting departments, is really salutary or not. It arises out of long Parliamentary usage, and it follows at every stage the correct form of our system of Parliamentary accounts. Still, I have doubts whether it is entirely salutary. No doubt, some will say that it is unpleasant for a Minister like myself to have to come down and ask for such a tremendous sum as £40,000,000, and the fear of asking such a sum might make me exert myself even more energetically to cut off expenditure in other directions. I am not quite sure there is much in that argument. It is so easy to explain to the House of Commons what the facts are. The House always treats a Minister fairly when he has an explanation to make. It is so easy to clear away the misconceptions which do duty in certain sections of the popular Press in regard to these matters, that I do not feel any additional deterrent or additional embarrassment by having to take this burden on my shoulders.
I do say this, however, and I say it very seriously, I am not at all sure whether the fact of these enormous charges, which the War Office has no responsibility for or control over, descending on to the Army Estimates, swamping any economies which may be made departmentally, may not discourage and dishearten the Military and Air Force officers, and the officials of those Departments who are labouring to save small sums of money by thrifty administration from day to day, and find themselves in a position of having to ask for enormous sums from Parliament, and where they are sure to be blamed, whatever the result may be. I know this matter is in the mind of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he made a pointed allusion to it in the course of his speech the other day. I have every hope that next year, at any sate, any aftermath charges that may still remain, except, of course, charges which involve continuing services like the issue of medals, and any charges which arc mere arrears, shall be definitely borne in some other way on some other funds, and that the fighting services, for two of which I have responsibility, shall be left nakedly face to face with what they actually are spending, and no more, and be compelled to come forward with no further explanation to the House of Commons to justify themselves.
I have dealt with the expenditure which is already incurred, and involves, no new charge upon the Exchequer. I come to the £20,000,000, which is an addition to the burdens of the State. But before I come to the new money, I have to deal with another item. I have only explained £18,000,000. There is a £2,000,000 charge for the services which have been transferred from the Ministry of Munitions to the War Office. That involves no extra charge on the State, because money was taken in the Estimates this year to keep up those Departments as part of the Ministry of Munitions. They have been transferred to the War Office, and, naturally, I must take on my Estimates a sum of money equal to what is necessary, but the charge on the Ministry of Munitions will be reduced by, not an equal, but a larger sum. In the transference of these Departments considerable economies were effected. A 13 per cent. reduction of the staff has been enforced, yet we are employing 5,700 ex-service men to-day as against 5,300 in the Department at the time we took it over. What are these Departments? One is the great Inspection Department of the War Office, which was carried away by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. When he went to the Ministry of Munitions he carried the Inspection Department away, as it was essential to the production of guns, and he had the inspection in his own hands. It is a Department absolutely indispensable and inseparable from Army administration. In addition to that, we have got the five national factories, some of which were built during the War. We are reducing the numbers of these factories considerably; four more are intended to be thrown out before the end of the year.
We could have reduced these staffs which came over to us, amounting to 24,000 persons, the greater part of whom are workmen, much further but for the conditions of unemployment which prevail at the present time. I have no hesitation in saying that we have between 5,000 and 10,000 men on our hands in the War Services Departments whom we could discharge to-morrow if we were looking at it only from the point of view of War Office economy. But it would be imprudent and harsh, I think, at this season of the year for us to add to the difficulties already prevailing by such a measure as that, and we are trying our hardest, by short time and by alternative workings, to mitigate the severity of the economic conditions of the labour market during the present hard times. That accounts for the £20,000,000, which involve no new charge.
I come now to the new money—the new charges. The first item is Ireland. I mentioned at the outset of my remarks the general increase of white troops, that is, British troops, which was necessitated by the disturbed condition of many parts of the British Empire, the absence at the present time of the normal reserve and second line forces of the British Army. To that increase of the Regular Army these disturbances in Ireland are now a contributing factor, but nothing like so large as is commonly supposed. A large number of troops have always to be kept in Ireland, and of the additional troops who are in Ireland the overwhelming majority would be in England, and form part of the indispensable central reserve in the British Army which we always kept before the War in this country, and forming part also of that training system and drafts of troops for our garrisons in India and the East which is the foundation of the long-established British Army system.
In addition to that there is special expenditure connected with Ireland which adds to our charges. The conditions under which the troops are serving in Ireland are very hard, and I am bound to make certain arrangements for the conduct and contentment of these troops. This involves additional expenditure. Besides this there are certain additions of expenditure on mechanical transport, motor lorries, armoured cars, armouring of lorries, and so on, which I need hardly elaborate. There are extra transport charges for moving the troops to and fro.
Are all these included in the one and a half millions?
All these, taken together, make a direct additional charge on account of Ireland of something between one and a half and two millions of money. I am dealing, as I say, in round numbers. It seems to me a very remarkable thing that the expenditure we have been put to in Ireland, compared with the expenditure we have been put to in the more distant regions of the Middle East should be so remarkably small. Ireland bulks Very largely in our minds because it is the heart's centre of the British Empire. Any disturbance or movement there produces vibrations, almost convulsions, throughout the whole of our system of society. There is far larger skill involved; a far greater loss of life, I am sorry to say, and a far greater expenditure of money takes place in the more distant but much more loosely connected parts of the British Empire which do not seem to us to raise problems nearly so formidable.
Is not that largely occasioned by the fact that the Government have not given us full information?
I am not quite certain what is in the mind of my right hon. Friend. A flood of information on public affairs of all kinds is poured out by the Government and the Press. So far at the present time from leaving those who deal with public affairs destitute of information, the latter is baffling in its variety, and we are overwhelmed by it. I am quite certain that if you had double the information which has been given about, say, Mesopotamia you would have had no larger share than Mesopotamia has been able to secure on the time and attention of Parliament; yet, here we are sitting the whole of the year round debating our affairs, and we can hardly get through our work in the year. It is not at all a question of the volume of information. It is a question of the proportions of events and their relative urgency and proximity to the centre of Government.
I have dealt with those facts. I now come to the Middle East, in regard to which the remainder of the Estimate, approximately £18,000,000, is required. Almost the whole of this charge arises from Mesopotamia and Persia, but a portion of it is due to the expenses of the force in East Persia, which has been administered by, and its operations controlled by, the Government of India—I speak of the force at Meshed. There is, however, not only the force at Meshed, but the force in Southern Persia—the South Persian Rifles—which is a comparatively small matter. The main item is in East Persia, the Meshed force under General Malleson. That force went there, as I said yesterday in reply to a question, as one of the operations of the Great War. It pushed up to this distant and advanced situation in order to stop the infiltration of hostile propaganda, Russo-Bolshevik, into Afghanistan and India during the later and last phases of the War. It succeeded in its purpose, because the neutrality of Afghanistan was maintained and the infiltration was reduced to perfectly manageable limits.
We have been desirous of withdrawing that force ever since, and it has now been withdrawn. I hoped, when the Estimates for this year were framed, that they would have been withdrawn much sooner. But the difficulties of collecting the small parties and the winding-up of the business there at Meshed and filtering the troops down this attenuated line of communications in small parties—all this business delayed the process of withdrawal; and the result is that whereas I took in the Estimates of this year £2,000,000 for this force an additional charge of, approximately, £3,000,000 has fallen upon us. I have been asked for the total charge of the operations of General Malleson's forces, begun in the Great War, in this area—these shielding operations. India is not able to give the figures prior to the financial year 1919–20. The accounts naturally involved the warfare proceeding all over the world. But for the year 1919-20 the East Persian force cost £8,000,000 and in the present year £4,500,000, a total in the two years of £12,500,000. The South Persian force in 1919-20 cost £3,250,000 and in the present year £500,000 or a total of £3,750,000. The total expenditure on these forces of Southern and Eastern Persia amounted to £16,250,000, and the total sum falling within the limits of this Vote on that account is, approximately, £3,000,000.
I want to come to North-West Persia. There is, under General Ironside, a force of moderate size, whose numbers I will not define with undue precision, in Kasvin and the neighbourhood South West of the Caspian Sea, which force is practically the sole protection at the present time of North-West Persia, and the capital, Teheran. It has been decided to withdraw that force, but it cannot be withdrawn till spring. The high passes between Kasvin and Mesopotamia proper would make it very difficult and very hard on the troops and would involve considerable risk if the force had to traverse them in the depths of winter. It has, therefore, been decided that they should remain there until the spring. I do not mean by that that if it was a matter of life or death they could not withdraw. The original expedition under General Dunsterville made its way over these Caspian passes during the War in the depths of winter. What was done then presumably could be done now, with equal suffering and equal risks. I do not wish it to be supposed that this force is isolated and cut off; that it could not be withdrawn if the worst came to the worst, or that it could not be reinforced if it was attacked. I want to make that clear, because it is a fact that this force has been talked about in this way, and the fact that information has to be given about it by no means enhances their safety. This force will be withdrawn at the earliest moment the passes are passable in the spring.
5.0 P.M.
Meanwhile, what we are trying to do, and have been for a long time, is to rouse the Persian Government to a sense of its responsibility, and to induce it to take some measures to protect itself and its capital. We hope that some Persian force may be formed which will maintain the order of that part of the world, and protect the capital from being overrun, as it may easily be overrun, after we have gone, if the Persian Government fail to take the measures which are open to them. It is a very melancholy thing to contemplate the possibility of an ancient capital of a monarchy like that of Persia being engulfed in the tides of barbarism and a culture which, though primitive in many respects, is nevertheless ancient, being swamped and beaten down under the heel of a Bolshevik invasion; but there must be some limit to the responsibilities of Britain. There must be. Can you wonder that, faced with such possibilities, the Government have shrunk from withdrawing from this position until they could feel satisfied that the Persians can defend themselves? But. now we are giving them another final chance to put their house in order by the spring, and more than that cannot be asked of us. We are bound to contract our responsibility, to curtail our expenditure, in these regions of the world. Some other great nations are not by any means so ready to incur these heavy charges for what are, after all, works of humanity, and not of imperialist ambition in any way, and although we have done our very best, it is quite clear that there must be a limit to our efforts, and that limit has been reached with regard to Persia.
What is the cost?
About £5,000,000.
The whole lot of it, or this year?
The supplementary charge is only about £1,000,000; for the year it is £5,000,000. From the point of view of Army administration it will be a great relief, not merely in expense, but because we shall get the mechanical transport by which this force is maintained at the end of an immense line of communications, 600 miles long, by a service of Ford cars. Anyone can imagine what the expense of that service is in a country of that kind. We shall get great relief in mechanical transport and in the personnel, just that class of personnel most necessary to our administration at the present time.
I have dealt now with every branch of the Service except one, and I have left that for the end, because it is the one most likely to be questioned; in fact, it is the only one about which there is really any effective dispute at the present time. I mean Mesopotamia. I have seen it stated frequently in the last few days, and I have heard it stated in the loose way in which things are stated nowadays, that the expense which we are put to in this Supplementary Estimate of £40,000,000 is for Mesopotamia. Well, Sir, it is not that. It is not £20,000,000. It is not £10,000,000. It is £9,000,000. The extra expense of this Supplementary Estimate on account of Mesopotamia is not forty, twenty, or ten, but nine millions, and I thought I would start the discussion on that basis, because I know how insidiously attractive these big figures are, and it is just as well to put the actual facts before the House. This is not the time, nor am I the Minister, to enter into a discussion of the political considerations involved in the acceptance by Great Britain of a Mandate for Mesopotamia. Still less am I competent to discuss the internal civil administration of that country. I accept to the full my share of the general responsibility of the Government in those matters, but we are now concerned with the Army Supplementary Estimates, and it is my duty to show the House that we could not possibly have avoided the heavy expenditure which has been incurred. From the moment when the Armistice began we commenced to reduce and demobilise the troops in Mesopotamia. At that time there were nearly a quarter of a million fighting men in the country and a much larger number of native followers, living on our ration strength. All the steamships were steadily filled during the whole of 1919, and by September of last year the force in Mesopotamia had been reduced to less than half what it stood at at the close of the War. When the Estimates for last year were being prepared, the General Staff gave it as their opinion that a force averaging throughout the year about 70,000 men—that is, beginning at a larger figure and working down to the lower— would be required to hold the country. I presented my Estimates to the Cabinet framed on that basis, but the Cabinet decided, and I entirely concurred in the decision, that we should make a further endeavour to reduce it to half the strength at which it stood at the beginning of the year, and I reduced my Estimates which I presented to the House accordingly. I told Parliament about this at the time, and I have taken the trouble to remind hon. Members of the fact by printing an extract from the prudent and far-seeing words, if I may say so, which my long Parliamentary experience and many disappointments have taught me always to introduce into any forecast I may have to make. In pursuance of this decision of the Cabinet, with which I was in full accord, I began immediately to press the General on the spot, General MacMunn, to reduce his troops, and in order to show the House the spirit in which the Government have acted, I am going to read one or two of the telegrams I sent from this country to General MacMunn and to his successor, General Haldane, on this subject. As a Government we are accused of having no desire or wish save, but to squander and cast away the national treasure, making no effective attempt to curtail or curb expenditure. I can assure you, Mr. Whitley, that the effort has been unceasing, earnest and unceasing, and I hope these telegrams which I am about to read will, apart from any success which may have attended our efforts, convince the leading anti-squander maniac in the House, whoever he may be, that at any rate it has not been for want of trying. On the 9th September last year I sent the following telegram. This is a paraphrase, in order to protect the cypher, but it fairly represents what I said, although I should naturally prefer my own words: line could not be released until spring. Of the remaining 94,000, all those who were military employés, provided shipping was available, would have left in two months' time. This included the 11 battalions I had mentioned, and he promised to do his best to send 4,000 more. There were certain factors which prevented followers being reduced at once to post helium figure, namely, several thousand were engaged on temporary work in repairing, packing, and handling the mass of surplus equipment and stores ordered for despatch ex-Mesopotamia; also large numbers were engaged in fitting out river craft for sea voyage to India when the monsoon ended and after. Several thousand Kurdish and Arab levies were under training with a view to eventual reduction of . troops and were paid for by local revenue, and tribal responsibility had been developed. In recent troubles Kurdish levies had mutinied and deserted. He added that I might rely on the promptest possible compliance with spirit of my instructions.
I think it is necessary to put these matters to the House because it is only by following what is actually taking place that one understands the practical difficulties of the situation. I hope that it will show how strong is the unity of sentiment and will existing between the House of Commons and the country on the one hand, and the Government who are trying to reduce the expense on the other. When General MacMunn returned to India on other duties I selected another officer whose high abilities I was personally acquainted with, and whose record in the War was one of proved capacity, General Haldane. I had a long interview with him before he went out, and explained the indispensable need, if this vast province of Mesopotamia was to be kept within the areas of the world for which we are responsible, of devising some military system, in association with the civil government, of securing its internal order without these enormous military charges. He went out in full agreement, but when he got out there he found, as I expect any hon. Member of this House would have found, or any members of the faithful and vigilant Press would have found if they had gone out to Mesopotamia, that it is very much easier to see these things than to do them. He found grave dangers threaten- ing under what was apparently a peaceful settlement. He found great difficulty in safeguarding the enormous lines of communications, which were needed in supplying the troops who were garrisoning the region in which our political officers were endeavouring to set up an improved system of government. Soon after his arrival the hopes we entertained were waning. I telegraphed again on the 21st of April, 1920, as follows:
After receiving this and other messages, I came to the conclusion that I should do wrong if I pressed General Haldane further to reduce at that time. Of course, it is a very difficult position for the Minister, who is trying to put pressure upon local administration to reduce as far as possible their expenses, and yet at the same time must consider what is due to a commander who is face to face with the actual dangers on the spot. At that stage, therefore, I deferred to the representations of General Haldane, in view of his feeling that we might be on the verge of some upheaval in Mesopotamia, and no further diminution was made. In June, almost immediately after this, the Rebellion occurred. The long, slender lines of communication were everywhere interrupted. The railways which we constructed were torn up for long distances, and torn up again as soon as they could be repaired. Several small garrisons were fiercely assailed and many were invested.
Odious acts of cruelty and treachery were perpetrated by the rebels. Communications with Bagdad were interrupted, also for a time the communications which united our forces in Persia with the main army in Mesopotamia. In these very difficult circumstances, which were certainly critical, I consider that General Haldane acted with wisdom and capacity. He took many risks in the quiet part of the country to concentrate striking forces to deal with the disaffected regions. He constructed block-house lines along all the railways which were vital to feed his troops. He then proceeded to strike at the centres of revolt, and for this first we ordered a brigade, then a division, and finally the equivalent of two divisions to reinforce him from India. We also raised the effective strength of the Royal Air Force from two effective squadrons to four.
During the burning hot weather of the summer, while these reinforcements were arriving, little progress could be made, but-during September and October the rebels were attacked in earnest according to a well-conceived scheme, and the back of the rebellion was speedily broken. Tribe after tribe made its submission, paid their fines and surrendered large quantities of rifles. There are now, I am advised, at the present time no formed bodies of enemies in the field against us. There are some disaffected areas in the Euphrates district in which the troops are fired at by snipers, and small parties are in danger of being cut off. The Prime Minister reminds me that the part of the country which is still in disorder is that part which in the days of the Turks had not effectively been brought under any sort of control. I have now explained historically what has taken place in the year, and why it is we have now to ask for £9,000,000 more for the restoration of order in Mesopotamia. I make no apology for the time it has taken to put the House in possession of those facts. I ask seriously where, if we have gone wrong in the process of reducing the forces in Mesopotamia. We had this gigantic force when the War ended with this multitude of followers, and we reduced it continually as fast as we could during the whole of the year 1919.
We decided to carry the reduction still further. We put all the pressure that was legitimate and proper upon the military commanders to continue it during the present year, and it was only when they cried a note of clear and definite warning that we felt bound to suspend the process. Immediately thereafter our troops were attacked by the rebellion which took place, and thereafter we have been fighting for our lives, and for the safety of all the white inhabitants in that country as well as His Majesty's forces, and we are only just emerging from a campaign which has been arduous and costly, but has also been successful. We are now going to resume the process of reducing the garrison in Mesopotamia. I have heard from the General on the spot that he considers it possible to reduce the garrison by the end of the financial year to the limits at which it stood in June last before we brought in the additional reinforcements from India. Further than that it is not possible to go at the present moment. In any case, there must undoubtedly be a substantial charge on the Army Estimates next year for Mesopotamia. This is not a case in which there is any use in becoming excited or angry. We have to face real responsibility and real difficulties, and we have to face them not with hysteria or irritation, but with firmness and courage. If the House at this moment were to say, " We refuse to vote another penny for Mesopotamia," they might dismiss the Government from power, but they would not alter the difficulty which exists in that country, nor would they diminish the expenditure which we shall have to incur on account of it. If at this moment we were to order the troops in Mesopotamia to begin evacuation it seems very probable we would be involved in general heavy fighting in many parts of that region which would last well into the next financial year.
Let me add this word of caution at the end of my remarks: I am quite certain that the loose talk indulged in in the newspapers about the speedy evacuation of Mesopotamia earlier in the year was a factor which provoked and promoted the rebellion. Whatever your policy might be, it would certainly be in the highest degree imprudent to let it be thought that this country, having accepted the mandate, having entered into territory of that kind, having incurred, accepted, and shouldered responsibilities towards every class inhabiting it, was in a moment of irritation or weakness going to cast down those responsibilities, to leave its obligations wholly undischarged, and to scuttle from the country regardless of what might occur. Such a course would bring ruin on the province of Mesopotamia, and it would also impose a heavier expense on the British taxpayer than I believe would be incurred if we actually and firmly resumed the policy of reducing our garrisons, of contracting our commitments, and of setting up a local government congenial to the wishes of the masses of the people, which will have the effect of relieving us of the burden, and enabling the great natural riches of this ancient province to be developed to the advantage not only of the British Empire, but of the whole world.
I beg to move that the Vote be reduced by £1,000,000.
I do so, as I shall show to the Committee presently, on grounds both of sub-stance and of policy. Even if those grounds did not exist, I would do so as a protest against the form and character of this Supplementary Estimate. We are asked to vote an additional sum for the Army of something very nearly approaching £40,000,000. Even in these days £40,000,000 is a substantial figure, and the House of Commons ought to have been presented, as it has not been, with the same details as were provided in the original Estimate of the various items out of which this gigantic total has been constructed, and as was the case, as I am reminded, only last night in connection with the Navy Supplementary Estimate. In my long experience I have never seen a Supplementary Estimate, except, perhaps, in war time, covering the same extent of ground, and amounting to anything like the same figure, in which the information supplied was so scanty and the material so meagre. Coming to details, let me take one of the largest items dealt with by my right hon. Friend with his accustomed mastery of disarming candour and alluring moderation. It is an item which he treats as irrevocable, as not new money, but as part of the past history of our finance. If hon. Members will turn to the Estimate, on page 3, Sub-head 6, they will find a gross total in round figures of. £31,000,000. That, it is true, is reduced by a mysterious credit of which the right hon. Gentleman has given us no explanation, namely, some transactions in regard to wool between the Ministry of Munitions and the War Office, to the sum of £27,700,000. If the Committee will look at the Estimate after that sum has been subtracted from the gross total it will find we are now asked to vote an amount which will exactly double the original Estimate, namely, £27,000,000 odd. How is that £27,000,000 arrived at? How is it made up? I do not know. The Committee has no materials before it. I will deal with such information as has been vouchsafed to us in the Explanatory Memorandum which has been circulated. There the Secretary of State has not amplified in any substantial respect what he has said just now. If hon. Members will turn to the Explanatory Memorandum they will find it stated in the eleventh paragraph that the largest element of the Supplementary Estimate consists of charges arising out of the late War, amounting to £18,000,000. But why £18,000,000? The total under this head is £31,000,000. £18,000,000 alone is accounted for in the Explanatory Memorandum. The most important of these items is the sum of £10,000,000, which we are told is claimed by the Government of India on the adjustment of war account for stores and supplies, and it is added that these accounts take a long time to clear up, and it is only recently that the claim has emerged. When the Estimates were originally submitted to the House is it conceivable that the Secretary for War had no kind of prevision or suspicion or conjecture that a claim of that kind would be made? Apparently he had not. But what is this £10,000,000 made up of? We have not one single item to enable us to understand for what purpose, and in respect of what services, it is required, nor has the right hon. Gentleman vouchsafed us any explanation. Take the next large sum. The Explanatory Memorandum says:
I have given every one of these figures.
Where are they? They are not here; they are not in the Estimate.
I am not dealing with the question of the way in which the Estimate is presented. It follows the prescribed form. There is a sum for enemy prisoners of war and another for the South African Protectorate. I have given all the details.
The right hon. Gentleman is not dealing fairly with the Committee. We had the Navy Estimates only yesterday, and there the charges, which were very much smaller, were analysed and detailed, as they usually are in Estimates presented to the House. The Committee is not to be satisfied because an Explanatory Memorandum is issued, nor will it be satisfied with a perfunctory oral statement which it is impossible at the moment to check or consider. It is absurd to expect the Committee to assent to procedure of that kind. In regard to the £10,000,000, we have not had one item even, even in the oral statement, which will enable us to conjecture what figures the £10,000,000 is made up of. If the Committee of Supply is to discharge its functions and its responsibilities to the constituencies and to the country, it is entitled to require, when dealing with colossal figures like these, that every item should be put before them on paper in the Supplementary Estimate, as is done in the original Estimate. My Motion to reduce the total sum by £1,000,000 is, I think, thoroughly justified on that ground, if on no other. I come to—I will not say a more important matter, because I think this is vitally important, but I come to what my right hon. Friend called " matters of new charges." I am proposing to refer to the last paragraph on the first page of the Secretary of State's Memorandum dealing with the Middle East, and later on I shall go into that in some little detail. But before coming to the constituent items which make up the total of our commitments in that part of the world, I wish to deal with the general statement in this paragraph that
" In all the theatres of-the Middle East the cost is now estimated at £49,000,000 for the financial year, as against the £33,000,000 for which, in the hope and intention of effecting reductions, I asked Parliament in the original Estimate. This accounts for £16,000,000 of the present Supplementary Estimate."
The right hon. Gentleman told us in the concluding part of his speech that the extra cost to Mesopotamia is £9,000,000, and does not exceed that. Of what is the £7,000,000 which, added to the £9,000,000 makes up the total of £16,000,000, the admitted excess over the original Estimate made up? Where has it been spent? In what part of the Middle East? We ought to be told that. We ought to know why and where it has been spent.
I can give the information.
Give it, then.
£9,000,000 out of the £16,000,000 is for Mesopotamia, Approximately £1,000,000 is additional for North-West Persia. There are £3,000,000 additional for East Persia and the remainder is due to the fact that although we have effected considerable reductions in Pales-tine and Constantinople, on the other hand they have not amounted to what we hoped they would realise when we presented the Estimates. That is the explanation. I am sorry the right hon. Gentleman has not been able to get it in a proper form from the Estimate but that is the actual fact
Why was that not given in the Estimate itself? It was such a simple thing. It is astonishing, and contrary to all the traditions and practice of Parliament, that a very large sum such as this addition of £16,000,000 should not be shown in the Estimate submitted to Parliament. There was not a tittle of information, until I extracted it just now by a question from the right hon. Gentleman, as to how this £16,000,000 was made up.
I gave it in my statement, and I thought it was entirely covered by that. If my right hon. Friend will read it afterwards, I think he will see that I have gone through and explained every detail of the Estimate, and that it balances from beginning to end. I have not only presented the Estimate, but also an explanatory memorandum, and for an hour and a quarter, I have been en-deavouring to explain every detail of it. It is idle to say that it is not given.
My right hon. Friend's view and mine differ as to what the Committee are entitled to. We are entitled to have a detailed Estimate on paper before we pass sums of money like this for the public service. Let us see what the position was when the Estimates were presented and when we discussed them at the end of last June. First of all, the " Middle East ' is a comprehensive term, and, apparently, for the purposes of this memorandum of the Secretary of State, includes East Persia. No vote was taken specifically, in the Estimates as presented, for East Persia. I remember the Debate we had on the subject, and it was only in the course of that Debate that we elicited from the Secretary of State the fact that £2,000,000 was to be expended upon East Persia. That did not appear under the head of Constantinople, Egypt, Palestine or Mesopotamia, but was smuggled away under Terminal and Miscellaneous Services, in Sub-Head L of Head VI—" Indian Miscellaneous Charges, £7,350,000." That is the only information that was given to the House of Commons that we were spending money at all in that part of the world. East Persia was not referred to in any way, but it was elicited in the course of the Debate that of that £7,350,000, £2,000,000 was being expended in East Persia. My right hon. Friend the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) asked a question in the course of the Debate, and, but for his having asked that question and got an answer, there was nothing to convey to the House of Commons, in the Estimates as presented, that one single penny of the British taxpayers' money was being expended in East Persia. That £2,000,000, lurking in concealment under these vague " Indian Miscellaneous Charges" was no part of the detailed expenditure presented in the earlier part of the Estimates for the Middle East. It is now included in the Middle East expenditure. I am going to put a further question to my right hon. Friend, which will, perhaps, enable us to get to the bottom of it. My right hon. Friend says, in the paragraph to which I have just referred, that in all the theatres of the Middle East the cost is now estimated at £49,000,000 for the financial year, as against £33,000,000 for which Parliament was asked in the original Estimate. Where is that £33,000,000? I have spent a good deal of time and trouble in trying to discover where it is, but have done so in vain.
I have not the total of the original Estimate, but my right hon. Friend knows perfectly well that the charges are given in that Estimate under the different theatres, and it is a total obtained by adding up what we took in regard to those different theatres.
The worst of it is that it is not arrived at by adding them up. I have added them up, and can find nothing approaching £33,000,000. It is true that, under Head I only, there is a total of £33,000,000, which my right hon. Friend says includes Constantinople, Egypt, Palestine, and Mesopotamia—not of course East Persia; and it also includes the expenses of the occupation of the Rhine, which I am sure is not, even on the very largest and most comprehensive view, included as expenditure on the Middle East. I have taken the trouble to add up—leaving out the Rhine altogether and also East Persia, which is not there at all—the sums first under Head I, and then under all the heads, and I find the total to be, in round numbers, £39,000,000. This figure of £33,000,000 is a purely mythical figure, as far as I can make out; it has no place or part in the Estimates as presented to the House of Commons. That is a matter on which, I think, we are entitled to have some explanation. It is an illustration of the slovenliness with which the whole of this Estimate is compiled and presented. That, however, is by the way; I am now coming to matters of substance. An hon. Member laughs, but it is a matter of substance that we should be informed as to the way in which the money has been actually expended or is being expended. My hon. Friend who laughed may not have had a very long experience of the House of Commons. I have, and it has always been regarded as a first duty of the Government to be absolutely candid with the House of Commons, and to give the fullest possible details of all expenditure, particularly in the case of a Supplementary Vote like this, which nearly doubles the original Estimate. I see that my right hon. Friend has now furnished himself with a copy of the original Estimate, and I want to ask one or two questions about these various items. If he will be good enough to turn to page 15, I will ask him to go through with me the items regarding these various theatres or sub-theatres which constitute, in the aggregate, what he calls the Middle East. As regards Constantinople, the provision made in the Estimate was for 6 months only, and I remember pointing that out at the time. In other words, it was a provision only until the 1st October.
It was a provision for the then existing state of things for six months, the assumption being either that the force would be reduced or that the occupation would come to an end.
The assumption was, not that it would be reduced, but that it would cease to exist, and that we should only have to provide for it for six months. I assume that part of this extra charge of £16,000,000 is for that force, but a great change has taken place in that part of the world since the Estimates were discussed here last June. I do not want to use anything in the nature of controversial language about things that happen outside, but the great and illustrious Greek statesman, M. Venizelos, has been displaced, and the ex-King of Greece, we are told, is now on his way back to Athens. The situation as regards that part of the world has been profoundly modified—I do not say more—by these circumstances, and I think that this is a fitting occasion, unless the Government see reason to reserve anything they have to say upon the subject, to know whether or not our commitments in that area are as they were, or whether they have been or are likely to be modified in the near future. In the case of Egypt, Palestine and Mesopotamia the assumption, as is clear from the explanatory notes attached to the Estimate, was, not that the forces there would cease to exist and be withdrawn, but that they would be reduced to approximately one-half.
That they would be reduced at the end of the year to half what they were at the beginning, by a gradual process.
That is quite right. That is the assumption that was made in all those cases. Not only has that assumption not been realised in the case of Mesopotamia, where the force has been increased, as the Secretary of State's Memorandum shows, by 26.000—
That is an increase of 26,000 men above the total to which it had been reduced in June. It is now approximately equal to what it was when the year began, instead of being reduced to one-half.
I am not troubling about the precise figures. My right hon. Friend and I are agreed that, instead of being reduced by one-half, it remains, as he says, at the same figure as at the beginning of the year. I think it is probably a little more, but that does not matter. As regards Mesopotamia, therefore, the assumption on which the Estimates were framed has not only not been realised, but the very reverse has taken place. One would like to know, inasmuch as we are told that, of the total increase of £16,000,000, only £9,000,000 is attributable to Mesopotamia, what is the case with regard to those forces in Egypt and Palestine. I think that, when we were considering the Estimates last time, North West Persia, as distinguished from East Persia, was included in Mesopotamia. From what my right hon. Friend said just now, we know what has happened, or is happening, in North West Persia. If the increase attributable to Mesopotamia is only £9,000,000, one would like to know with some precision how much increase there is in these other sub-theatres of the Middle East. There must have been a large increase, instead of the reduction which was contemplated in the Estimates, and upon the basis of which, indeed, the Estimates were framed —that is to say, upon the basis of a reduction in the course of the financial year of approximately one-half.
I said that I thought we ought not to complicate the statement. I have given the main heads. There was £3,000,000 left to be accounted for, which represents the increase in-these three different theatres of Egypt, Palestine, and Constantinople. There has been a marked reduction in the number of troops in every one of those theatres—an enormous reduction—but it has not been a reduction up to the limit for which we were budgeting when we made the Estimates.
6.0 P.M.
My right hon. Friend knows that I am not suggesting that there has been an increase in the number of troops, but there has been a failure to realise the decrease, or anything approaching it, upon the basis of which the Estimates were framed. I must once more refer to East Persia. The Committee has heard for the first time, in the statement which has just been made by the Secretary of State, what the total cost of these proceedings in East Persia has been from first to last. I took down his figures, and I think I am right in saying they amount to £16,250,000.
East and South.
East and South. South is comparatively a small figure. I am taking them together. I wonder how that has been defrayed. We took £2,000,000 last year under this heading of Indian miscellaneous, charges, and we are taking £3,000,000 this year, which is now treated as part of the Middle East expenditure. That is a total of £5,000,000. How has the other £11,250,000 been defrayed?
I do not carry the entire Estimates for last year in my mind, but the great bulk, of course, is War expenditure, and I think it was defrayed out of the Vote of Credit up to 1st April, 1919; but there may have been sums in my Estimates last year under the head of Repayments and Charges due to India which would have covered it.
No. The only repayment last year out of sums due to India was £2,000,000—at least, so we are told.
That is this year. I am talking of the volume before this. Any sums which were paid away were paid over to India under the heading of Payment of Indian Miscellaneous Charges or else they were settled under the general authority of the Vote of Credit before those sums were brought into the special accounts of the various Departments.
It is very desirable that the House of Commons should have an explicit statement. Here is £16,250,000 which has been paid by the British taxpayer in respect of these obligations in South and East Persia. We know now that £5,000,000 of that £16,000,000 is to be paid in one guise or another out of the Estimates of the present year. I do not know when the last Vote of Credit was exhausted, but I suppose in 1918-19 or 1919-20. The taxpayers of the country are entitled to have a full account how the whole of that money has been expended and out of what source it has been defrayed, because this is a very peculiar operation. As the right hon. Gentleman told us on the Estimates in answer to a question, these operations were controlled and administered entirely by the Indian Government and he himself, I think, said that he does not really know as yet, or is depending on information to be supplied, what the total expenditure upon them has been. They are quite unlike the operations in Mesopotamia and North-West Persia, which have been conducted under the authority and with the full responsibility of the Imperial Government here at home. It is all the more necessary that the House of Commons should know precisely what has been the total cost, and how it has been defrayed, of any operations for which the Imperial Government has had no direct responsibility or concern, the British taxpayer having to pay for them. I think the Committee will agree that these are points which are well worthy of elucidation—much more elucidation than they have received either in the skeleton form presented to us or in the explanatory memorandum of the Secretary of State or in the speech which he has just delivered.
I wish to add two or three words in regard to the latter part of his speech, which referred mainly, if not exclusively, to Mesopotamia itself. I think, and I have said so before, that it would be very unfair on the War Office to make them responsible for the extra cost of these operations in Mesopotamia. Telegrams which my right hon. Friend has read, and which I was not at all surprised to hear, indicated that he has been pressing, very properly, on the military authorities on the spot the urgency, and indeed the necessity, of making all possible reductions and curtailments in our commitments there. It is an expenditure which is the natural and necessary fruit of an ill-inspired policy, a policy which I think was ill conceived from the beginning. We went to Mesopotamia with honest intentions as the liberators of that country from the Turkish yoke and to establish or to aid in the establishment—no one supposes it could have been done in the twinkling of an eye or by the waving of a wand—of something in the nature of a self-governing State. But we went to work the wrong way. We took a large army of occupation; we spread them all over the country; we began at any rate the nucleus, one might say the germ, of some form of Anglo-Indian administration, and General Haldane was perfectly right, as far as one can say without any minute or detailed knowledge of local conditions, strategic or otherwise, when he said, " I have these long lines of communication; I have my railways; I have my scattered garrisons; I have little packets here, there, and everywhere which have to be protected, to be withdrawn, to be concentrated, and that is a task which requires military force." But the Arabs were described in the Memorandum of the Secretary of State as rebels. I do not know why they should be called rebels. I do not know to what allegiance they were traitors. It is described here as a rebellion, and the right hon. Gentleman just now, I think, used the term rebels with regard to the Arabs themselves. Why they should be called rebels I really do not know under any theory of sovereignty I have ever heard of. The Arabs were very likely ill advised; I am not defending them.
They were malevolently disposed.
That does not make a man a rebel. If my right hon. Friend is going to introduce a new dictionary of terminology, of which no one is more capable than he, a definition of rebel which would include these Arabs would take its place among the terminological inexactitudes in that dictionary. The Arabs did not like the way we were going on. They did not like to have to pay their taxes or anything; they did not like the various forms of improved sanitation and order which were imposed by the new British Administrator. They had not attained to that level of political ideals. The result was these sporadic outbursts which have led, unfortunately, to a large loss both of property and life. But in my opinion it was all the result of a policy which was originally ill-conceived. No blame is to be attached in the least to the military authorities for the part they have played in the matter. I think we are entitled to ask, what are the prospects now in Mesopotamia of a better state of things? We all heard with the greatest pleasure and satisfaction the announcement which was made, I think, in the last Debate we had on the Army Estimates at the end of June, that under our mandate Mesopotamia was to be constituted an independent State under the guarantee of the League of Nations.
Under our mandate.
If my right hon. Friend looks at the actual terms of the announcement made by the Secretary of State here it is our mandate under the guarantee of the League of Nations. That was the phrase used. Under our mandate I agree, but it was to be constituted a self-governing independent State under the guarantee of the League of Nations, and Sir Percy Cox was to be despatched—a very able, experienced officer, than whom no one possibly could be better equipped for the task, and one or two of those who were associated with him had several qualifications also—and has now been there for some time on a mission to enable the foundation for that new structure to be laid, as we all understood by the constitution in the first instance of a Council and ultimately in due time of an elected assembly which was to formulate a permanent organic law. That I am sure was a thoroughly well advised step. The only regret one has is that it was not taken earlier in the history of these transactions. I am sure the Committee and the country generally would be very gratified if they could learn from the Government what progress has been made in the prosecution of that mission, because upon its success and the attaining of a really self-governing Mesopotamia depends the prospect, as far as the British taxpayer is concerned, of his relief from his heavy commitments in that part of the world. Nothing could be more gratifying to this House and to the country, and to a very much wider area, than to know that in this, which is really the first great experiment in what I may call the mandatory mission contemplated by the Treaties and by the Covenant of the League of Nations on a large scale, some really effective progress has been made or, at any rate, some hopeful prospect can be held out for the future.
I hope I may claim the indulgence which this House has always granted to those who address it for the first time. I wish very heartily and sincerely to offer advice on this great problem, of which I may claim to know something. I have taken great interest in every word that I have heard this afternoon. I should like to say at the beginning that I am one of those who think the Government ought to be thoroughly supported in dealing with this problem. I voted against the Government on the Ministry of Food question, but on this subject to-day I am going to support the Government for all I am worth. I am of the opinion that it is strategic and political folly to remain in the whole of Western Mesopotamia. Nothing that I have heard to-day has altered my view; indeed, the Debate has only confirmed that conviction. To remain there would be a violation of the principle of economy of force. Nothing will get over the fact that that which is black is black, and that which is white is white. The principle of the economy of force is one of the greatest of the six great principles of war and nothing will alter my conviction that it is a mistake to occupy the whole of Mesopotamia.
I am not now expressing an opinion after the event. In proof of that I may tell the House that it is an opinion which I gave two years ago, when I came back to this country. Surely nobody better than I knows the difference between criticism and execution, and between theory and practice. When I came back here from Turkey—where many hon. Members will remember that I did bring the Turks out of the War four months before they need have come, and in so doing I flatter myself that I saved millions of money and thousands of lives. The Secretary of State for India did me the honour to consult me on the subject of Mesopotamia and the Turkish question, and I put my ideas down in a memorandum. Perhaps the best way for me to tell the House what I said would be briefly to recount that memorandum. I said that now we had the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus in our hands, and had command of the Persian Gulf and the Indian Ocean, I saw no reason, strategic or political, why we should lock up a single soldier in Mesopotamia. I saw every strategic reason against it. At the same time, I said that if the Government so desired, for political and commercial reasons, to have a footing in Mesopotamia, I thought that we should hold the province of Basra. That is a reasonable proposition. It is a sound strategical proposition. There we should be with our backs to the sea, and with our ships at hand. That is always what I have learned of British Imperial strategy.
If any hon. Members have read the book which I wrote on the campaign (page 36), they will see that I described how we could hold Mesopotamia. I noticed a leading article in the "Times' last March in which they quoted that plan of mine for holding Mesopotamia. Briefly, the plan is this: If I had the power of settling this question, I would straight-way now—and I claim that I could save the Government millions of money without any loss of prestige—commence the evacuation of Upper Mesopotamia, and I would occupy the Province of Basra. I would require only a division, and perhaps I would ask for another brigade; but I would probably do it with a division, and I should be absolutely secure and safe in doing it. I might want three or four gunboats. I should make Basra into the form of an entrenched camp, and there my munitions, my military equipment, and my hospital stores would be in ample security. On all the avenues of approach to Basra—for instance, on the West the Euphrates, on the East the Tigris—I would have my advance post or minimum force entrenched at Kurna and two other places. In that way I should be amply secured. I would have a Resident Commissioner at Bagdad, just as you have in India, in a native independent State, with trading rights on the Tigris.
That would be a reasonable and perfectly practical plan, and from my experience of the East I know that I should not lose a single atom of prestige, and that is taking into full consideration the blood and treasure expended in Mesopotamia. I would not evacuate Mesopotamia altogether. I would modify it by occupying the Province of Basra. In war and in politics, as a rule, a middle course is generally very dangerous, but this is not a middle course, it is a modified course. That, briefly, is the plan that I humbly submit to the House for its earnest consideration. As I have said before, it is absolutely violating the economy of force to occupy the whole of Mesopotamia and lock up so many troops.
I heard the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Churchill) say that they had reduced the troops there to 70,000, and I am bound to confess that 70,000 troops in the East for me means enough to conquer half Asia. If I had had 70,000 troops with me, instead of my poor little force of 13,000, I am quite right in saying that only the Black Sea would have stopped me. I was astounded to hear the Secretary of State for War say that directly this rebellion, as he called it, of the Arabs broke out, they cried for help from India in the shape of two more divisions. I cannot understand that. The Arab has not changed his skin since I came back. I have known him in the Sudan and in Mesopotamia, and I have always regarded a corporal's guard, if kept together, as enough for 30 or 40 horsemen. I cannot understand why they wanted all these troops. I hope the Government will reduce that garrison. How gladly I would undertake that task!
In the Debate last Thursday, I listened with the greatest interest to the speeches of the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the possibilities of commerce and so forth in Mesopotamia. May I give the Committee a very earnest opinion on that. If we put millions into Mesopotamia, as we have done in Egypt, then in 20, or perhaps 15, years it would begin to pay; but large irrigation works are wanted there. Sir J. Willcocks goes into details in regard to that. The working population is the great conundrum in Mesopotamia.
If you want profit in Mesopotamian trade, I ask you at once to get in the working population of South India, the Indian coolie, and then you will have to protect him with bayonets, or his throat will be cut at once by the Arabs. The Arab never works. I know him well. When I hear of an Arab Government in Mesopotamia, I must be permitted to laugh. I can see that Government in Bagdad now. I can see the British High Commissioner in his house. I know that house and that river, with its garden, and I can see my friend of other days Sir Percy Cox, sitting there with two or three figure-head Bagdad Arabs, seated in his verandah, with their black frockcoats and their baggy trousers, salaaming obsequiously when his Excellency goes out. They sign everything, but British bayonets collect the taxes. I know that Arab Government! I thank the Committee for the kind way in which they have received me, and beg them to earnestly consider the advice that I have humbly offered about occupying Basra. There lies a solution of the problem. We shall lose no prestige, and we are absolutely sound on the sea.
It is seldom that I intervene in Debate, but I have always taken a great interest in the East, and I went there for the first time 25 years ago. As a comparatively new Member, I should like to thank the hon. and gallant Member. (Sir C. Townshend) for his speech, and I hope that his intervention in future Debate will be frequent. With regard to foreign affairs, I am sorry to say that the general public take very little interest in them. Their knowledge of Mesopotamia is probably only gleamed from the Book of Genesis, and from the relatives and friends of those who have sacrificed their lives to uphold British honour, to redeem our pledge, and to defend and protect the country. They are the people, and tens of thousands more like them, who are determined that their sacrifices shall not be made in vain, and that our country shall not be robbed of the fruits of victory. Great Britain has had to find a suitable successor for the Turkish Government. The Commissioner had great difficulties to contend with. Had it been possible for peace to follow close on victory, the task of reconstruction would not have been nearly so difficult, but the Armistice was followed by a long and dangerous pause, and some would call it a fatal pause. The provincial administration had to be maintained, and in this the High Commissioner was handicapped and hampered by being under the treble control of the War Office, the Foreign Office, and. the India Office. I consider that it ought to be under the Foreign Office. Another very serious difficulty was that they did not know how long the acting administration would continue. The civil administration was, therefore, in a peculiar and difficult position as trustee for a nonexistent future Government. It was like being asked to be godfather to an infant not only unborn but of whose prospective arrival there was not even the usual symptoms. Colonel A. T. Wilson, with great energy and skill and ability, was able to lay the foundation of a future Government. He gained the confidence and respect of all classes of the community, and he is succeeded by a most able administrator in Sir Percy Cox. I understand that the motto of Mesopotamia is Cox et preterea nihil.
If we leave Mesopotamia there are others who are anxiously waiting to take our place there. They are fully aware of the value of the country. They are fully aware of its undeveloped resources, and they know that in proportion to its acreage it is the richest undeveloped country in the world. There is more than one eagle ready to put its talons into that country, and those birds are very shrewd. They have brains and foresight and their bumps of locality are abnormally developed. I do not suggest that we can immediately reap the benefit, because I am sure we cannot, but we should be in the position of trustees for posterity. I am one of those who believe that this generation should not bear the whole of the burden of the taxation of this War. I believe it ought to be spread over 25 or 50 years. The question of Mesopotamia is a matter of statesmanship. A statesman is a man with a prophetic instinct who can look 25 or 50 years ahead and legislate for the benefit of his descendants. One historic instance occurred in this House in November, 1875, when in the face of the most bitter criticism outside this House and the strongest opposition inside this House, Mr. Benjamin Disraeli insisted on buying up the Suez Canal shares. By that means we have to-day control of the high waterway to the East, and if we pursue the same policy in Mesopotamia we will add to this the high road to Persia, Afghanistan, Baluchistin and India. Indeed, Mesopotamia is the only thing we have got out of this War worth anything at all to us, so let us keep it. To withdraw after all the sacrifice of life and treasure would be suicidal. The withdrawal would be looked upon by the Balkans, Syria, Persia, Kurdestan, Afghanistan and Baluchastin, and last but not least, Egypt and India as a defeat to our prestige throughout the whole East. Our enemies in the East have always one object persistently in view. That is to strike at the British Empire through India, because they know that once India is invaded or occupied it is the beginning of the end of the British Empire. I am certain that if we abandon our pledges now it will not only be a case of perfidious Albion but the grossest and meanest act of treachery on our part. As to Armenia, those who have not been there and have not seen the Armenians and are not acquainted with them indulge in a great deal of unnecessary silly sentiment about them. It is not only silly sentiment, it is sanctimonious stupidity. The Armenian is the evil of the East.
Monstrous!
That is my opinion, and it is the opinion held by most of the people who have been there and have seen them. Only this last time that I was in Constantinople six Armenians attacked a single Turk on the Stamboul side of the Galata Bridge and killed him, the Turk's offence being that he had got an Armenian prosecuted for looting his shop. I am of opinion that the existence of Armenia as a nation is a calamity and a disgrace, and the Ottoman Greek does not fall very far short. The Greek is thoroughly untrustworthy and unreliable. You might describe the Ottoman Greek and the Armenian by using the words that Pope John applied in another connection: " He is a murderer, a forger, a liar, and a thief."
I do not think that the question of Armenia arises on the present Vote.
On a point of Order. Is the hon. Gentleman entitled to use language of that kind in reference to a country which during the War fought side by side with the troops of this country and helped to win final victory over the Germans by service in the East?
I am not sure that they did fight side by side with our troops. If they did, very few of them did so; but I apologise and withdraw the remarks. They were a quotation.
On what occasion did Pope John use those words?
From the military point of view I will never be a party to subscribing a single farthing or giving a single farthing of loan to Greece. The only claim to fame which Greece has is that it is the only country in the world where a Scotchman cannot live. Taking the Balkan States, Turkey in the past used to be extremely friendly to this country. I was there first 25 years ago and watched the gradual development of German ascendancy in that country and latterly the decline of British influence. I think that we made the mistake of backing the young Turk against the old Turk. The old Turk was always very friendly to us during the whole of the War, and whenever he could he kept, out of the War, and so far as Turkey is concerned it would be in the best interests of our Empire if we did our best to cultivate friendly relations with the Ottoman Empire. Every state in the Balkans has its own peculiar individuality There will possibly be trouble again, and that at no far-distant date, and especially where one of the countries is concerned. It is very hard to discriminate between the Balkans. There are great jealousies between them. Each thinks itself better than the other. If I were to try to classify them I would describe Rumania as the House of Lords, Turkey as the House of Commons, and Bulgaria as the London County Council.
There is no money included in this Estimate which is applicable to Bulgaria or the London County Council, or to anything to which the hon. Member is referring except Constantinople.
Is the hon. Gentleman in order in referring to the House of Lords and this Chamber?
We have got to look further back for all the trouble that has-been going on. If I am in order in giving a conversation which took place at the end of 1916, it will prove what is in my mind. I was then in a European capital, and a representative of a neutral State was a friend of mine and I was asked to see him. I was told that he was very friendly with the German representative, and I told him that I had heard this, and I said, " If it is not an impertinence, does he give any idea about the end of the War?" "Oh," he said, " he is perfectly frank about it. He said, ' We Germans are determined we will never be invaded or defeated by force of arms. We are determined to hand down to posterity that we fought the whole world and were never invaded or defeated by force of arms. If that time does come, then we. will sue for peace.'" I think the saddest hour of my life was the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, 1918. The only consolation I have is in the analogy of the eleventh verse of the eleventh chapter of the eleventh book of the Old Testament:
"For as much as thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend thy Kingdom from thee and give it to thine enemies."
I felt at that time, and I think we can trace all the unrest and trouble to it, that the War was only half finished. We had not completed it thoroughly. We had not given the knock-out blow which would have brought them to their knees. Would to Heaven that our Armies of Occupation had been in Berlin and East Prussia. If they had, there would not have been this unrest. But so far as Mesopotamia is concerned, I honestly believe that it is essential for the safety, honour and dignity of the British Empire, commercially, geographically, and strategically, that we should at all costs retain that province.
I will not endeavour to follow the speech of my hon. Friend. I think that you would not deal with me quite so leniently. He has wandered from the Estimates which we are considering this afternoon, and given a very interesting and even alarming essay embodying his views upon world politics. At the outset, as the first old Member who has risen—though possibly young in years, I have been in this House now 11 years—I congratulate the House on the welcome which it has given this after- noon to the hon. and gallant Member for the Wrekin Division of Shropshire (Major-General Sir C. Townshend) on his maiden speech. The hero of the seige of Kut is welcome to our Debate, and we hope to hear him on this and other subjects. This Estimate is, in many respects, a remarkable one. It is chiefly remarkable, to my mind, for the manner of its presentation. I do not think that the House has ever been presented with an Estimate in worse form than this. Everything which the right hon. Member for Paisley said about the method in which this Estimate is presented is fully justified. I have endeavoured to make the Memorandum of the Secretary of State tally with the Supplementary Estimate, and make both tally with the original Estimate, but find that they do not tally in any particular, and it is only dragged out by question and answer from the Secretary of State for War where exactly this £39,500,000 is going. I want the Government to consider in this matter the possibility of setting up in future, in connection with these Supplementary Estimates, a rather better procedure. I am sure that the House in Committee of Supply will never get control over finance unless we have a Memorandum, not from the Minister presenting the Estimate, but from a Committee of this House, created on the lines of the Public Accounts Committee to deal with each Supplementary Estimate.
We want in such a memorandum an explanation of the items under their proper heads. I do not suggest that such a Committee should have power to criticise policy. Its function should be to obtain information from the Department concerned as to what exactly has caused the demand for a Supplementary Estimate, and what that Supplementary Estimate is under each item and head. As to the Vote under discussion, I. feel particularly anxious to support a reduction by the amount of money which is being expended by this country on the forces in Persia, but I am equally anxious to support the Government on any Vote at the present juncture in respect of Mesopotamia. I think it ought to be within the procedure of the House to object to any one of these items separately and not to have to proceed by the reduction of a block grant of £1,000,000 for the whole vote. In those circumstances it is inevitable that one's vote is misrepresented. Nothing that the Secretary of State for War has said this afternoon has altered my opinion that we have made a most profound blunder by retaining our forces in Eastern and Southern Persia and above all in North-West Persia. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to fight Bolshevism Teheran is not the place from which to do it. It is strategically unsound and politically disastrous. I would urge that General Ironside's force be withdrawn at the earliest possible moment. It was retained in North-West Persia for the purpose of maintaining in power a Government which has already fallen, and in order to bolster up an agreement which is one of the prime causes of the recent trouble in Mesopotamia, an agreement which was undesirable, unnecessary and unfortunate, and an agreement which I hope will never be ratified.
The disastrous Anglo-Persian Agreement has cost this country millions and is doing infinite harm to the body politic in Persia. The sooner the agreement is thrown into the wastepaper basket the happier I shall be. I hope that the Mejliss, which I understand is sitting this week, will refuse to ratify it. It is common knowledge in Persia and in the East that in order to get the then tottering Persian Government to accept the Agreement we paid out large sums of money in subsidies to individuals. I have never seen what we gained by that Agreement or what Persia gained. Above all, I do not see what Persia is gaining by the retention of British troops in her territory. Even if the capital has to move to the south it will be to the good of Persia. The policy should be to build up an independent and self-reliant Persia* from the south. To maintain the rule of the Teheran clique over southern Persia by the aid of British arms is a most ill-considered and unwise policy. I shall have the greatest pleasure in voting for a reduction of the Vote as a protest against the continued maintenance of any British troops in Persia, beyond a consular guard.
I wish to emphasise the point that the trouble which arose in Mesopotamia this summer was very largely due to the Anglo-Persian Agreement, although there were many other contributory causes. I invite attention to the admirable and extraordinarily valuable Report of Miss Gertrude Bell upon the civil administration of Mesopotamia since the occupation. It is one of the most valuable publications about the East ever presented to Parliament. Miss Bell gives a narrative account of the events which led up to the rebellion. In Basra and Bagdad, and among the settled tribes of the Tigris, so far from there being a rebellion there was extraordinary loyalty to the administration, and in a very difficult position the Arab levies, which had been recruited in many cases from tribes which provided a certain number of the insurgents, were loyal and fought well. The trouble in Mesopotamia was largely local. Mosul, where it was expected that we should have the greatest trouble, was, in fact, peaceful, owing to the tactful and skilful policy of the political officers in that region, and, above all, owing to the Chief Civil Commissioner. The bulk of the trouble, even to-day, is in the neighbourhood of the great Shi'ah cities of Karbala and Nejef. It was in those two cities and in the region of the lower Euphrates that the trouble mainly arose. The Shi'ahs are a sect of Islam which has always refused to recognise the Turkish Khalifat or any Khalifat at all, and they are predominently Persian or Arab in race. They form the bulk of the population of lower Mesopotamia. Ninety per cent. of the population of vilayets of Bagdad and Basra are Shi'ahs. Miss Bell's narrative of the outbreak is to be found on pages 144 and 145 of this Report. She explains that was the Mujtahid, the chief religious leader of the country, and his supporters who were largely responsible for the trouble. Miss Bell refers to the death of the former local religious leader last year—a leader who had been a good friend to England. She says that his death had placed the chief religious authority of the Shi'ah world in the hands of Mirza Mohammed Taqi, who was guided entirely by his son, Mirza Mohammed Ridha: arrested, but that they were liberated again, which was unfortunate. Above all, they were allowed to go to Teheran, which seems to me to have been a most extraordinary proceeding on the part of the military authorities. Were it not for the unfortunate Anglo-Persian Agreement one of the chief arguments and weapons in the hands of these disaffected people would have been removed. I implore the Government to realise that Mesopotamia will be influenced in sentiment and in policy in future by anything that happens in Persia, and I beg them to withdraw from Persia, and to abandon a policy which has caused much trouble since the Armistice. The Agreement is a millstone round our necks in that part of the world.
7.0 P.M.
Let me now refer to other causes of this Supplementary Estimate. Of course, the main cause, which I must put higher than the Anglo-Persian Agreement, to which I have a particular personal dislike, was the delay in putting into effect the present policy that His Majesty's Government are pursuing in Mesopotamia. As far back as February last up to the month of Ramadan—anybody who knows the East knows that, especially when Ramadan comes in the summer, and one goes without water and food through a long, hot day, religious and racial passions are easily roused—the Chief Civil Commissioner kept asking His Majesty's Government for a declaration of their policy, asking them to make up their mind what they were going to do in the future in Mesopotamia. He could get nothing out of them. Things went drifting on, and it was only luck that got us a decision when we did. If it had not been that some Jews were killed in the streets of Jerusalem in Easter week, the mandates would not have been settled as they were. As a result of the outbreak in Jerusalem, the San Remo Conference, convened for other things, was besieged by representatives of the Zionist organisation, who said, " These things are drifting on until you have got a pogrom in Jerusalem, and you have got to settle something," and they worried the Prime Ministers until something was settled.
The policy of His Majesty's Government, in regard to the Middle East and the great expenditure of maintaining armed garrisons in the East, is due to the delay of the Middle Eastern Committee of the British Cabinet. As the Secretary of State for India said at the Constitutional Club, you are not going to govern the East through a Committee. It is perfectly impossible. It is the cause of all this expenditure of money. There is no one man responsible. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) quite fairly said, it will be most unfair to blame the Secretary for War for the expenditure in Mesopotamia. It would be equally unfair to blame the Secretary of State for India entirely or the Chairman of the Middle Eastern Committee who is the Foreign Secretary, but they are all, as a matter of fact, collectively responsible in this Committee. I am told that all the telegrams and all the decisions have to be taken before this Committee, that when the Foreign Secretary presides, the other Departments send not their Ministers but some subordinate officer to represent them on the Middle Eastern Committee. You will never get a reduction in the expenditure in the Middle East in Constantinople, in Palestine, in Hodeidah—Yemen where there has been months of delay because the Middle Eastern Committee could not agree, until you scrap the Middle Eastern Committee of the Cabinet. If it is scrapped, and an individual Minister alone made responsible, then we may be able to reduce expenditure in the Middle East.
At present there is overlapping, interdepartmental jealousy and one Minister or Department blocks the other all the way. That is the chief cause of our continued expenditure and continued maintenance of large bodies of British and Indian troops in unhealthy parts of the world, because you have in the Middle Eastern Committee no clearly recognised authority that can come to decisions. Responsibility is thrown by one Minister on to another, and the result is nothing is ever done. Look at the situation at Aden at the present moment. Is it under the Colonial Office, the War Office, the India Office, the Admiralty, or the Foreign Office? It is under all five for different things. You never get a decision and you get troops kept till they die there, and who sends instructions from the Resident at Aden? Sir Percy Cox took up the arduous position of High Commissioner in Mesopotamia on the distinct understanding and pledge that he and those officers serving with him would be under a proper Eastern Department. That pledge has never been fulfilled. Who is holding it up? Who is the Minister so reactionary that he is holding the matter up and wishes to keep the thing in his own hands? That is the chief cause of this Supplementary Estimate, of the overlapping, the delay, drift, and uncertainty ever since the Armistice in regard to our policy in Egypt, in Palestine, in Mesopotamia. You never see a single thing settled. It is impossible for the Foreign Office to settle anything. They have to refer to the India Office, and back again.
The second cause is the universal local hatred of the Anglo-Persian Agreement. The third cause I attribute very largely to events in Syria. We enlisted during the War at our expense Mesopotamian officers and Mesopotamian soldiers in an army for the liberation of Syria. We brought them round from India to the Persian Gulf. We trained them under Colonel Joyce and put them at the disposal of the Emir Feisal and Colonel Lawrence, and they did wonders during the War. They got into Damascus before we did. We made them a most clear and specific pledge as to the future of Syria, and we put the Emir Feisal into Damascus. He had to rely on the forces he brought very largely from Mesopotamia, and the Damascus Government consisted of people very largely from Iraq, the Arab name for Mesopotamia. You may try and explain it away. You may say, " We gave pledges to the Arab, and counter-pledges to France," but the general Arab opinion in the Moslem world is that we let down the Emir Feisal and that we let down the Arabs in Syria. The large numbers of Mesopotamian officers and soldiers who served the Emir Feisal during the War, when they were let down in Damascus, had pretty sore feelings. When they got back to Mesopotamia, and this is a further important contributory cause of what has happened in the last six months in Mesopotamia, when the local Damascene and Syrian representatives proclaimed the Emir Feisal as their King, the Mesopotamian officers who were serving with him declared his brother as Emir of Iraq, or Mesopotamia. There is no doubt that there is a considerable body of feeling in Mesopotamia, that a member of the Shireefian family should rule. I hope the British Government will allow nothing to stand in the way of the Mesopotamian people if they desire this.
After all, France has never consulted us with regard to her action in Syria. We are not in the least under any obligation to consult France about our action in Mesopotamia. If Mesopotamia asks for the Emir Abdulla or Emir Feisal to be the head of the new Arab Government in Mesopotamia, we have no right to say "The French object." That would be most unfair, as it would be as unfair if we interfered with what France is doing in Syria. Our military commitments in the Middle East and Mesopotamia in particular will be vitally affected for many years to come by what happens in Syria. The connection has been intimate for thousands of years, and whatever takes place in one cannot help affecting things in the other. I profoundly regret the sentiments expressed by a French High Commissioner of Syria in Paris last week about French economic interests in Syria. It goes like wildfire through the Arab world. An hon. Member says something about oilfields. Personally, I would not give 6d. for the Mesopotamian oilfields. I do not believe in our lifetime they will be developed. You have either got to take it from Mosul to Basra, about 700 miles, with reinforcing pumping stations—because there will be no gravity—all the way down, across rivers, or down to the Mediterranean. Mesopotamian oil is not, and never will be, a paying proposition. That is the opinion of people who have studied it on the spot. If you are going to stay in Mesopotamia for oil, you are bargaining for the moon.
We stay in Mesopotamia, and we ought to stay until we have fulfilled our pledges to the Arabs, to the League of Nations, and our commitments under the Peace Treaty. Until we have set up under Article 22 of the League of Nations a Mesopotamian State that can stand alone, defend itself, and develop its own freedom we have no right having made friendly relations with these people, having kicked out the Turks, and started the political and economical regeneration of the country, to let the country slip back into anarchy,, and still more to let the Turk come back, for that is what will happen. The inevitable result of the withdrawal from Mesopotamia to Basra or anywhere else, is that Kemalist Turks will come back within a month, and no prospect of progress will be afforded until some other deliverer comes and kicks out the Turks. Remember what Turkish rule has been in Mesopotamia. 'One of the fairest provinces of the world, the granary of the world, has been blighted by the Turk. The bulk of the population are Shiah. The Turk allows no Shiah schools. Arabic was not taught in the schools, but only Turkish. Turkish officials were rampant everywhere, bled the country, and introduced corruption, and they only maintained their position by setting one tribe against another. They reduced the country, once one of the most progressive and civilised States of the old world, in 400 years to a bare fraction of what it was. They destroyed all the Arab culture, literature, science, the canals, everything. That is what you will see again if we withdraw from Mesopotamia. It is our duty to go on with the present policy and set up, not a sham, but a real Arab Government. It will take a little time. After all, no Arab was ever allowed by the Turks to take a position of responsibility. A few were employed in subordinate government. We have got to teach and train the Arabs to enable them to take positions of responsibility as they did in the old days when they were a great imperial people, and colonised North Africa, Spain, and other countries. Personally, knowing them well, I believe they are capable of it again, but they have been deprived of education and of work, they have been hunted and persecuted by the Turks, and the Mesopotamian provinces were administered from Constantinople as alien provinces, with no local autonomy. It is our duty to remain there in the interest of the Arabs and of civilisation.
I must turn now to another cause of the recent outbreak, and in this connection I would press the Government to do something and to do it quickly, and that is in regard to the deep-seated racial antipathy between the Arabs and the Indians. There is no getting away from it. You may say it is unreasonable to have racial antipathies in days of leagues of nations and things of that kind, but you must remember that the Arab has a great pride of race. He may be poor, he may be in humble circumstances, he may be in ragged clothes, but he remembers that he is part of the great Arab race, the race which founded Islam and which has a great history behind it, and he has never regarded the Indian as his equal. One of the inevitable causes of trouble in Mesopotamia, therefore, has been the enormous number, not only of Indian soldiers, but Indian followers and Indians of all kinds, employed in Mesopotamia, and I profoundly hope the Government will not introduce any more Indians there, either as indentured labour or anything else. If Mesopotamia is to be developed, let it be developed by its own people and have no foreign labour, either Chinese, Indian, or Somali. What is the position of the railways in Mesopotamia? You have less than 1,000 miles of railway there, and in the running of those railways you have got 25,000 people employed, which is, I believe, a higher proportion than in any other part of the world of persons employed to the railway mileage. Of those 25,000 80 per cent, are imported Indians, and the sooner you can send every one of them back to India the better. The Arab will train into a mechanic extremely well, and the Armenian is very useful for clerical work on the railways. He is far more economical, and he does not create these prejudices. Then you have the Bagdad Jews, who get on very well with the Arabs, and they are an extremely able and cultivated lot. They are Oriental Jews, but they have been of enormous assistance in helping the railways, and the great thing I want to emphasise on the Government is the absolute necessity of reducing the number of Indians, military and civil, who are at present in Mesopotamia. They are a cause of political trouble and of very great expense.
I was delighted the other day to hear the report which the Secretary of State for India gave regarding the behaviour of the Arab levies during the recent troubles. They stood firm, and I hope the Government will make every effort, by sending similar telegrams to those quoted by the Secretary of State for War in his speech this afternoon as having been sent to Sir Percy Cox, to the military Commander-in-Chief in Mesopotamia to encourage and increase the number of the Arab levies. Mesopotamia, we hope, will one day stand alone, without our assistance, and it can only do that, and it can only become a national State, on the basis of a national army, and the first thing we ought to do is to build up that national army. There are now about 6,000 of these Arab levies, and the sooner that number can be increased the better. I know it is not easy. It will require a good deal of pushing to increase them, but for every one man you get trained to serve in an Arab levy, I believe you can get rid of a platoon of Indians, because these people will be defending their own country and their own families against depredations by Bedouins and other invaders, and, as has been seen during the recent insurgence, they fight well, and they fight to the death. Undoubtedly another cause was irresponsible criticism in this country. There is no doubt there was an impression in Mesopotamia that, although we had accepted the mandate, although we had gone into Mesopotamia and made friends with this man and with that man, and although we had started an administration and had said we were going to set up an Arab administration, there was an impression that, in spite of that, we did not really mean to go on but meant to clear out of the country at the earliest possible moment or, still worse, to adopt the policy which the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) advocated in his last speech on this subject, which I am glad to note he did not repeat to-day. He was in favour of this policy of withdrawal to Basra. That means a Mesopotamia Irredenta for the people who are not inside the Basra Vilayet, and sooner or later you will be kicked out of Basra by a combination of Kemalist Turks and Arabs concentrated at Bagdad.
I should have thought the Mesopotamian Commission proved absolutely that there is no strategic line on which you can stand or rest between Basra and Bagdad. I do not believe there is one. If you stay in Mesopotamia at all, you have got to go on at least to the Anah, north of Samarra, to the greater Zab line, which forms the old frontier between the Assyrian Empire and the Babylonian Empire in the time of Nineveh and Babylon. Even that is not satisfactory, because the whole water, irrigation, and transport system rung from Mosul, where the. Tigris comes out of the hills into the plain, and it is one all the way down from Mosul to Basra. I am sure that a policy of withdrawal, say, to Kut would be no good. What would happen? Why was my hon. and gallant Friend (General Townshend) surrounded and captured at Kut? It was because the Turks could outflank him, and I do not believe it is possible to have a strategic line at Kut. The mere configuration of the ground, an absolutely fiat plain, renders it impossible. The centre, the natural capital, the inevitable capital of the country, is Bagdad, and you have either to stay there or to clear out altogether. You have either to stay in Bagdad and put through the policy which Sir Percy Cox is now initiating, or else you have got to clear out altogether; and I hope for the sake of our Army, and for the sake of our reputation, and for the sake of the work of civilisation which we have undertaken there, that it will not be a clear out. What I say of Mesopotamia I do not say of Persia. I regard the Anglo-Persian: Treaty as a millstone round our necks, and I regard the maintenance of a single British soldier in Persia as a most unfortunate hindrance to the peace of the Middle East. I shall take every opportunity of voting against and opposing the Anglo-Persian Agreement and the retention of British troops in North-West Persia, both now and on every future occasion.
I should like to have followed my hon. Friend (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) in the very admirable, well-informed, and suggestive speech which he has just delivered, and later on I shall revert to it when I come to the question of our policy in the Middle East. I think I should say something to the Committee on the form and the amount of the Estimate, in reply to the speech earlier in the discussion of my right hon. Friend, the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith). On the question of the form, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War, I think, consulted the convenience of the House when he put the Estimate in the present form. The old form—such is my recollection— generally gave the extra amount that the House was asked to vote under each separate heading of the Estimate—for instance, Transport, £1,000,000; Stores, £2,000,000; Pay, £1,000,000; and so on. That would not have given any real information to the House. Supposing we followed the old form and said the pay of the Army was so much extra, stores so much extra, and so on, that would not have been any real information to the House of Commons as to how the extra expenditure had really arisen. What the House of Commons wanted to know was, above all, the objects for which the extra expense was required. They wanted to know where the money had been spent, and that is why the Estimate takes the form which it has already been put into, with the Explanatory Memorandum, which is a departure, I think, from all precedent. It is, at any rate, a precedent which was set by the present Government. In the old days, when there were Supplementary Estimates, these Explanatory Memoranda did not accompany them, and it was left entirely to the Minister in charge to explain when the Vote came before the House of Commons what the money was spent on.
My right hon. Friend has departed from that procedure, realising that the House of Commons wanted all the information possible, even before the Debate came on, and he gave a very elaborate Memorandum, which explained the reasons why the Estimates which he has given us were required. If my right hon. Friend had given even more detailed explanation, it would have involved publication of another Army Book. Every Vote is affected, and therefore it would have involved putting in another Army Book. It would, really. I have gone into the matter with those who have prepared these Estimates in the War Office, and they tell me that the only way in which the full detailed explanation réquired by my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley could be given would be by the publication at this stage of another Army Book, which certainly is contrary to precedent, and which is not, I think, a very desirable precedent to be initiated, especially as another book would have to be prepared in a very short time for the Estimates for next year. Every figure, as a matter of fact, which is not fully explained in that Memorandum was given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in his statement, and if my right hon. Friend opposite will read the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow, he will find that every bit of information was given by the Secretary of State. It is very difficult to follow these figures upon a statement which is made for the first time.
I come to one or two items upon which the right hon. Gentleman touched. He made great play with the £ 16,000,000. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War gave the figures, not merely in the interruption of the speech of the right hon. Member for Paisley, but also in his original speech. There are £9,000,000 for Mesopotamia, £1,000,000 for Persia, £3,000,000 for East Persia, and £3,000,000 for Constantinople, Palestine and Egypt. That is the explanation of the £ 16,000,000. With regard to the £10,000,000, that is a bargain which was entered into by the Government of my right hon. Friend in 1914 with India. I was a Member of that Government, but I think if we were to enter into that bargain at the present moment it would be rather a different kind of bargain. It was one of those bargains we had to make under the pressure of War, when there was not very much time, but it was not the best bargain for the British taxpayer. It was a bargain whereby all stores over and above what were normally required for the Indian Army should be paid for by the British taxpayer. My recollection is that India was practically to send in the bill, and as there was no means of investigating it by means of a system of accountancy here, we were to accept the accounts sent in from India. That is not a very satisfactory arrangement. This claim was only sent in shortly before this Supplementary Estimate was put in. It is in respect of expenditure claimed to have been incurred by the Indian Army in Mesopotamia, Palestine, Egypt, and perhaps Constantinople.
Everywhere.
Everywhere. We have not had an opportunity of investigating that claim at present. It only came in shortly before these Estimates were prepared. We thought it right to inform the House and take full authority to deal with it, but that does not mean we shall not look into the account and see what is fairly attributable to the British taxpayer and what ought to be paid by the Indian taxpayer. But we were bound to inform the House immediately the account came in, and claim the authority, of the House to deal with it. Those were the two items, I think, on which my right hon. Friend pressed for further explanation. But I propose rather to deal with what I conceive to be the more important part of his speech, and that was the part in which he dealt with policy. He and others, no doubt, want a clear idea from the Government of what their views and intentions are with regard to policy in the Middle East. I will take the various items raised by my right hon. Friend, and I take first of all Constantinople. It is very difficult to discuss the whole of the position there under present conditions. There is no doubt at all that the occurrences in Greece will have a very considerable effect upon the position in that part of the world, but I do not wish to dogmatise on the subject, and I think the Powers are right in awaiting developments before they finally determine upon the policy which they adopt in that quarter. It would be very undesirable, until we see exactly what the position is, to make any statement here which would tie the hands of whoever represents Great Britain in any further action upon that subject. But there is one thing about which we have got to make up our minds, which have no real reference to the relations between Greece and Turkey, and have no relation to the question of Smyrna or even Thrace, and that is the guardianship of the Straits.
This country, in conjunction with other countries, has got to make up its mind whether it is prepared to restore the guardianship of the Straits to Turkey. If it does so, that is inviting the same treachery which proved, not merely so perilous to the cause of the Allies, but very nearly disastrous. Early in the course of this year we had a very grave discussion in this House upon the question of Constantinople. The Government, not without much hesitation, not without a good deal of reluctance, came definitely to the conclusion that it was advisable to leave Constantinople to the Sovereignty of Turkey, while at the same time internationalising the Straits. On that occasion we were very severely criticised on the ground that we did not expel the Turks. The question was put to those who criticised us, "What would you substitute for it?" and we were told, "An International Government." An International Government would have involved an International Army, not merely to protect the Straits, but practically to govern that part of the world, to govern Constantinople and to govern the provinces abutting the Straits and abutting the Marmora. That would have involved very considerable expenditure. That was the advice we received, and it was one of the elements which contributed to the decision we took to leave Constantinople under the Sovereignty of the Turk, and cast upon him the responsibility for the government of that very difficult population. But what I am entitled to point out to the House is, that the criticism which is directed against the Government for their expenditure comes largely from those who by their policy would increase that expenditure.
There is no doubt at all that the events in Greece add considerably to our difficulties. At the present moment there is a Greek Division in the Peninsula. I do not know what the effect of the accession of a totally new Government in Greece will involve, but, at any rate, I think the House must definitely make up its mind that the guardianship of the Straits, which are so vital in that part of the world, must remain under the control of the nations who have accepted the responsibility up to the present. The three nations who have accepted responsibility up to the present are Britain, France and Italy. Britain has made its full contribution towards the guardianship of the Straits. France has got other difficulties, but she is doing her best. Italy up to the present has not made her contribution. That is adding a good deal to our own difficulties and responsibilities, but I wish to make quite clear that Greece has nothing whatever to do with that. That is a question of policy which has no reference in the least to the question of whether King Constantine remains in Greece or whether M. Venezelos remains there. The only conceivable difference it' could make would be that the Greek Division might be withdrawn, and increased responsibility might be cast upon the other three Powers. That is all I have to say about Constantinople.
I come now to Persia. My hon. Friend said he was going to vote against the Government because we were not clearing out of Persia. I am going to vote for the Government exactly for the same reason as my hon. Friend is going to vote against it, because we are proposing to clear out of Persia. It is part of our definite policy to clear out of Persia. My hon. Friend says, "You might have done it before." It is not so easy. When you accept responsibility of that kind in that part of the world, you cannot suddenly go away and leave it completely to anarchy. We have done our best, not merely to clear out of Persia, but to accelerate our retire- ment. Why did we go there? The War is only two years ago, but it looks sometimes as if it were two hundred years, and there was such a torrent, such a deluge of events everywhere, all of the first magnitude, that it is very difficult for the House of Commons or anybody to carry in his mind what happened in each field. But what happened there was that the Turks suddenly broke away from everybody, including their Allies, and suddenly developed a great Pan-Asian mania. Anyone who reads the German books can see how that disconcerted the plans of the Germans. The Germans wanted them to go to Mesopotamia and to Palestine to fight us, but the Turks suddenly forgot all about the War in Europe, forgot all about the Allies, forgot even about the enemies who were at their gate, and said, "This is our chance to start a great Pan-Asian Empire." They wanted to get back to the countries from which they came, and I wish they had.
They went to the Caucasus and they actually captured Azerbaijan and took Batum. They found Russia gone to pieces. I do not know in whose hands it was then—practically no one's. It was all broken and torn to pieces. The Turks said, "This is our chance to start a great Turkish Empire." So they went to Batum, took Azerbaijan and marched towards Persia. It was part of their policy. There were two dangers to us. They were a great Mohammedan Power dealing with a great Mohammedan population. They did not care about Europe, but if they got to Persia they could have got to Afghanistan and could have attacked India, and that was part of their policy. Not only that, but they could have outflanked us in Mesopotamia, and we decided, with such force as we had at our disposal, to send an expedition up there to arrest the Turkish advance. It was very successful. It was one of the best bits of work done in the War by General Dunstable. He went there with a comparatively small force, but that necessarily meant a considerable expenditure in transport. There were the long roads along which the motor lorries went, and the horses, and the staff.
With that small force a very fine and daring piece of work was done, one of those fine pieces of work that British officers can do when they are put to it.
Even with small resources the Turkish advance was completely arrested, and the force prevented what might have developed into one of the most menacing movements against our Empire that ever took place. You might have lighted a fire in that part of the world that might have devastated Asia as Europe has, to a very large extent, been devastated. Therefore I do not in the least take the view of my hon. Friend. He is right in saying that our work is done, and that we ought to clear out; but to say that we ought to have done it before is wrong. That would have been a thorough blunder. I am certain that we were doing the right thing in the interests of the Empire in the steps we took there, and in doing our best instead of running away the moment we thought our task was accomplished, and leaving the place to anarchy and confusion, leaving the people who had depended on British honour not knowing what to do. These Orientals think and move very slowly. Time does not count with them. They have no Supplementary Estimates—or House of Commons to present them to—which may be a good thing! As to going on with makeshifts from week to week and from month to month, there is a good deal to be said for that—from the point of view of Supplementary Estimates. But one must remember that one is dealing with Orientals, and the Persians, as well as others there, move slowly. Still, we have had to say to them that we really cannot stay any longer.
Hear, hear!
And that if they do not by the spring get their forces ready they may take it we are leaving definitely. The statement is a definite one. It is not dependent on whether they are ready or not. You have it that in the end we must clear out.
Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman if the Anglo-Persian Agreement will come to an end if it is not ratified this week?
If the Anglo-Persian Agreement is not ratified, if they do not take steps in that direction, it naturally falls to the ground. It is their action, not ours; but having signed it we are bound to stand by it. If they do not carry out their part—and there does not seem to be any alacrity about it with them—very well, then, the responsibility is not ours. Great Britain, however, must not give the impression that she is trying to get out of her agreements. Her character in the East, even more than in the West, depends upon the fact that she stands upon her bond. That is the position so far as Persia is concerned. There is no real disagreement between my hon. Friend and myself, and I hope later he will be found in the "No" Lobby.
I come now to Mesopotamia. We have accepted the mandate for Mesopotamia. My right hon. Friend seemed to dwell more on the fact that it was under the protection of the League of Nations. I dwell more on the fact that it is under our mandate. If you deal with realities that is what matters. It is no use talking about the protection of the League of Nations unless somebody is prepared to carry out the mandate of the League of Nations. Supposing this country said: " We accept no responsibility for it except as members of the League of Nations." What is the League of Nations going to do? It is no use meeting at Geneva, discussing the state of Mesopotamia, passing resolutions upon the subject, or making speeches about Mesopotamia. That does not help Mesopotamia. Somebody has to accept responsibility on behalf of the League of Nations. That is why I emphasise the fact that we are the mandatory, rather than put emphasis on the fact that Mesopotamia is under the protection of the League of Nations. The House of Commons has here again to decide. Is it prepared to abandon that mandate? That is the real issue. If an announcement were made by the Government that we abandoned this mandate there would be rejoicings in certain quarters to-day. Those rejoicings would be feebler to-morrow. The day after to-morrow those rejoicings would be converted into regret. I have no doubt about that—none! There is no one who criticises us about Mesopotamia who has the courage to come forward and to say: "You must clear out of it altogether." Unless they do so, they really have no right constantly to be saying: "Here you are, squandering money on Mesopotamia." If you have got Mesopotamia, if you take a mandate for her, you must discharge your obligations in a way that is worthy of the interests of this country, and worthy of the prestige of this country in the East, where prestige counts for so much. How is it to be done?
I think it would have been a fundamental mistake for us to do other than we have done. It is very difficult to dwell upon this, because if you do, there are people, not merely in this country, but outside, who say that you want to exploit the resources of this country for the benefit of British trade. Therefore, every time you make a statement of that kind, it is exaggerated. What you say about benefiting the people of the country and restoring it to something like its old prosperity and glory; restoring it to a condition which makes for wealth, happiness, and contentment—all that is forgotten. What is dwelt upon is the fact that you made a statement in the House of Commons that it would benefit British trade. It is, therefore, very difficult to dwell upon this aspect of the case. I remember that in the course of a speech I made here, a speech which I am afraid lasted some time, I made one allusion in a couple of sentences to the fact that there was oil in Mosul. From what was said afterwards by some, you might have imagined that that was the whole of our policy from beginning to the end. That is grossly unfair. The fact is overlooked that these resources enable you to govern the country more efficiently. It is a revenue of the Arab Government, once it is set up. Therefore, it is an advantage. We have shown perfectly clearly that if there is a rich deposit of that kind—it requires to be examined, and it has not been examined up to the present—it is for the benefit not merely of the British Empire, but the whole world, and that we shall hold the balance evenly between the nations of the world. But the mandate means that it is under British advice.
And cost!
Initial cost. I believe ultimately it will be at the cost of Mesopotamia, but the initial cost is ours. One thing is forgotten—the right hon. and learned Gentleman is absolutely right—the people criticising us are not so eager to come forward and pay part of the expense—not in the least. That has got to be borne in mind. I come to the next point raised by my right hon. Friend. We do not propose to attempt to govern Mesopotamia. That would be a sad mistake. It would be unjust and unfair. It would be a gross breach of faith, because we have given most definite pledges that we will set up an Arab State. We are endeavouring to do so. it is being done at the present moment by one who my right hon. Friend said— and rightly—is a singularly able man, with a better knowledge of these countries than probably any man in the world—I refer to Sir Percy Cox. He has set up an Arab Ministry. At present they are trying to form some sort of Arab constitution which will enable, him to ascertain the real wishes of the people in this respect. They have started to form an Arab force, and the Arab levies have so far proved very reliable. This, I hope, will be completed in a short time.
I have great sympathy with what was said by my hon. and gallant Friend below the Gangway (Sir C. Townshend) whom we welcome to this House, and who rendered such very conspicuous service at a critical moment with very inadequate resources. The defence he put up against overwhelming forces is one of the glories of the army of which he is a member. 1 was delighted to hear him say that 70,000 men seemed a tremendous force to deal with an Arab population which had never shown itself very apt in fighting. I hope his views will be communicated to those now responsible with whom he has great influence. I am always amused at the demands which are made by generals for divisions and brigades I dare say they are perfectly right. They want to make sure. But I have always found they ask for a good deal more than they expect to get. They draw upon the experience of the past, and they think that the best way to get exactly what they want is to ask for a good deal more. I am, however, perfectly sure of this—that there is a large difference between a small force there after you have broken the back of rebellion—after you have shown what British power is capable of—and a force of the same size before that. We discovered that in the Sudan. What is applicable to the Sudan is quite applicable to an Arab population elsewhere. They know that we have forces within reach, and that we can always send them, and if they realise that Great Britain will not allow defiance of her authority it has its effect upon them. I think recent operations will be a very salutary lesson in that respect, and make things very much easier in the future.
8.0 P.M.
That is why. I thought any idea of retiring from Basra or anywhere else before you had broken the back of the rebellion would be bad policy from the point of view of future developments in Mesopotamia. In Palestine we are making large reductions. The population there is only a population of about 600,000, and it is ridiculous to imagine that you want a large permanent garrison in the country with a population like that. Disturbances in Syria, I agree with my hon. and learned Friend, are making a very great difference in Mesopotamia, Palestine, and possibly Turkey. It is very difficult to discuss that, but there is no doubt that the impression has been created on the Arab mind that somebody has broken faith with them. That is disturbing the Arabs throughout the whole of this great area, and I am perfectly certain that the disturbances in Mesopotamia, and even the troubles in Egypt, are due far more to that than to Turkey. The Arab race, its pride, its sense of justice and fairplay, has been outraged by the feeling that somehow or other things have not quite been done in the way they had expected. On the other hand, there have been very unfortunate attacks upon French troops which had not only to be prevented but punished. I think, however, that when a settlement comes to be made in that quarter of the world, whether in Mesopotamia, Palestine or Syria, the Arabs will feel that the European mandatories are keen to see right and justice done to them. I agree with my hon. Friend that there is a good deal to be said for unified control of the whole of this area. Owing to the circumstances under which these operations were begun and conducted, several Departments necessarily became involved. The War Office naturally became involved, India necessarily was also concerned, and the Foreign Office also became implicated, so that there are three Departments which have each a measure of control and each a voice. An attempt was made to coordinate their work by setting up a Committee, but I think the time has come for placing the area which for the moment I prefer not to define, because there is always the question of Egypt which has got to be considered—of placing these areas under one Department. I do not mean the creation of a new Department, but that it should be decided which Department is going to undertake control, and have the whole responsibility for the Middle East. That is the position of the Government with regard to these matters. I claim we had the right, even at the considerable expense which has been involved, to break the back of what I hestitate to call a rebellion after what my right hon. Friend has said, although I do not know what other word should be used—revolt, rising, insurrection; I do not care what the word is. All I know is that there was an attack on British troops, and a good many of them were killed, and that was, at any rate, an attack upon the British Army. It was an attack upon British authority, and therefore we were bound to take action.
Reprisals!
My hon. Friend says reprisals. Any word you like. But the fact remains we could not have allowed this attack upon British forces without making it clear that British authority must be established in that quarter. It would have been a disastrous policy in the East. We claim we have done that, and we invite the House of Commons to assent to that policy, and to assent to what has been incurred in the matter of expense for that purpose. We say that is not the end of our policy. Our policy is to proceed with the redemption of the pledges given to the Arabs to see up an Arab State in that quarter—
I wish I were an Arab!
to retire from Persia, and then to discharge the mandate which has been placed upon us by the Treaty.
The speech which the Prime Minister has made on the complex problems of the Middle East has been listened to with interest and instruction, but I am afraid it is likely to obscure the great outstanding fact associated with these Estimates, and that is the Committee is being asked to pass an additional sum of £40,000,000 in connection with the Army. When I listened to the light-heartedness and the buoyancy with which the Secretary for War introduced these Estimates, I thought I was listening, for the time being, to the chairman of some successful liability company announcing a dividend of, say, 140 per cent., whereas he was announcing a deficit of some £40,000,000, which the taxpayers of this country have to find, largely because of the lack of judgment and the incompetency of the Department of which he happens to be the head. Having emerged from a war somewhat financially exhausted, faced with grave financial commitments, the public of this country are realising, if Members of this House are not, that we cannot continue to participate in wild military adventures and madcap escapades involving the expenditure of millions of the taxpayers' money, and an expenditure which, as far as I can understand, brings no corresponding benefit to the people of this country. With a National Debt of some £8,000,000,000, with an increasing measure of taxation, with a growing problem of unemployment and all its attendant evils, it is time the Committee and the House cried "Halt!" to the reckless folly of the Government, which involves the expenditure of millions of money upon doubtful schemes. The cry goes up outside this House, and, indeed, inside as well, for economy. Attacks have been made upon our educational system. We have the prospect of no further progress or development of our educational system. The preservation of public health and child-life is being threatened largely on the ground of economy, and yet the Government of our country chucks blocks of millions away without bringing any real benefit to the people of this country.
Having regard to all the circumstances, this is not the time to engage in what I may term military picnics. I know the right hon. Gentleman will say we were already in Mesopotamia. I admit that the exigencies of the War inevitably took us into Mesopotamia, but I say with equal force that the exigencies of peace, the exigencies of our financial commitments, the exigencies of our social problems, demand that the Government should shake its feet of that part of the world as quickly as it possibly can. We were led to believe as far back as June that we were going to see great reductions in the number of troops and the money involved. None of these promises have been realised. There has been waste of life, waste of money, and also waste of energy which we can ill afford, and which might reasonably have been used to solve some of the social problems with which we are confronted and to grapple with the problem of reconstruction inside our own domestic circle. In the course of the right hon. Gentleman's statement he referred to the various telegrams he had sent seeking reductions. He finally said that General Haldane, threatened with great dangers, with a critical situation, was unable to meet the call, and the right hon. Gentleman had to agree that these reductions were impossible at the moment. He talked of the people of Mesopotamia as if they were rebels. I always understood that we were there to assist, with British intelligence, with British ability, to set up something in the nature of an Arab Government. If that be so, and had we confined ourselves strictly to that, why should there be anything in the nature of a rebellion?
It appears to me, judging from my reading of the situation, that as soon as the War ended we seemed to treat Mesopotamia as part of the British Empire, and as a country which we were called upon to govern, and to set up some elaborate administration for her; and, indeed, I gather from various accounts that that elaborate machinery was set up. We began to undertake expensive works, culminating in the taxation of the Arabs, which they strongly resented, leading to an interference with their mode and habit of life, which led to the rebellion and to the resentment expressed in that rebellion. In addition, what more suicidal policy could we have followed than the introduction of Indian troops? Indian troops created bitterness, created an atmosphere charged with resentment, charged with ill-feeling, where goodwill ought to have prevailed, and to an encouragement of racial and religious bitterness and a policy which has inflamed Indian national sentiment and jeopardised to some extent the relations between the Indians and ourselves. I should like to ask the Secretary for War, if he were here, a question. I regret there is no representative of the War Office here now. It is a scandal that when we are discussing the expenditure of £40,000,000 of the taxpayers' money for military purposes there is no representative of the War Office on the Treasury Bench to listen to our arguments.
The Financial Secretary to the War Office is unavoidably absent and desires to be excused, and he is the only other representative of the War Office in the House besides the Secretary of State for War.
That excuse may be all right, but we are discussing an-additional £40,000,000 Vote, and I should have thought that the Secretary for War or a recognised representative of the War Office would have been here, and would have made it his business to be present, in order that he might reply to our arguments at a suitable hour. Why have Indian troops been used? It may be on the ground of economy. I am rather inclined to think that if the Government had put the proposition to the electors that to maintain our policy in Mesopotamia, which originated before the mandate was given to us, would mean the employment of over 100,000 British troops, I am sure the Government would never have secured the sup port and adhesion of the British electors. This is a great departure from our British policy. In my judgment, this policy and the object in view are Imperialistic, notwithstanding what has been said by the Prime Minister, and had it not been for the existence of rich mineral deposits of oil, I doubt whether we should have remained there, or whether we should have been willing to accept the mandate. It is extraordinary that we should be there ostensibly to create some form of Arab government in accordance with their national aspirations and desires, and development, and have to employ 100,000 British troops to keep order in a population of some 3,000,000. The whole course of the proceedings and the entire policy of the Government is, in my judgment, a serious blot upon our traditions. It is peculiar that in the creation and the appointment of a native administration we have to keep such a large number of troops there, and that, I submit, is a striking condemnation of the policy of the Government.
I pass on to inquire what is the motive behind it. The Prime Minister spoke slightingly of his previous references to oil and oil deposits, but I think that has a lot to do with it. Lives are being lost, money is being wasted, and Indian opinion has been and is, indeed, being inflamed, as was demonstrated by the hon. and gallant Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore), who speaks with an intimate knowledge, and whose conclusions invariably commend themselves to the judgment of this House. The whole policy reeks of oil, and the Estimates smell of oil. One hon. Member, in a most illuminating remark, said Mesopotamia was the only thing we had got out of the War, and we must keep it. We never went to war for Mesopotamia, or for any territory, or for any territorial aggrandisement. We went into the War for high principles, and the preservation of great ideals. Numbers of lives were sacrificed on the altar of those ideals, and it is a scandal that anyone should suggest that we should now place our hands upon some territory in the Far East, or elsewhere, arising out of the War.
We can ill-afford to spend all these millions to preserve the interests of great trusts and oil rings, and we are only adding to human misery abroad and at home. In our own country there is going to be thousands of empty stomachs during the coming months, and thousands of people reduced from comparative well-being to the border-line of starvation. Opposition is raised in some quarters to the raising of a few million pounds to try and solve the unemployed problem, but there has been no opposition to-night, and the Division Lobby will be filled and crammed with hon. Members who will vote for an expenditure of £40,000,000 which ought to have been used, and which could have been used for social purposes. I know the Secretary for War says that there is only £9,000,000 for Mesopotamia, but he did not tell us what proportion of the £10,000,000 was in the form of repayments to India, because of the cost of Mesopotamia. We learn that many millions were involved in the neighbouring district of Persia. These millions are wanted in this country by local authorities to solve the housing problem, and they are wanted by the people of this country to provide remunerative work to meet the problem of unemployment. [An HON. MEMBER: " That does not matter."] My hon. Friend says it does not matter, but I will not suggest that hon. Members opposite are so hard-hearted as that. I believe they have human hearts, and that they are interested in solving this problem.
It is suggested in some quarters that our occupation of Mesopotamia is for the benefit of the Arabs. If so, they have a remarkable way of showing their appreciation of our intervention. There was a rebellion in June, and continual excitement involving further expenditure on our behalf. It seems to me that the Arabs have some doubt as to our bona fides in this matter. Adverting to the question of oil, I notice that the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Harms-worth) admitted on 29th June that agreements made by the Turkish Government before the War gave the Turkish Petroleum Company the sole oil rights in Bagdad and Mosul. This company was registered in 1911. Seventy-five per cent. of the capital is owned by British financiers, including the Persian Oil and Shell Company, and 25 per cent. by German capitalists, and I remember the Premier stated that the Anglo-Persian Oil Company was a participant in the group claiming rights to oil at Bagdad and Mosul which were given to the group before the War. Those instances lead me to the conclusion that had not Mesopotamia been a commercial proposition we. should not have found our way there Our characteristic British instincts led us in that direction expecting it to be a profitable investment, and therefore we are remaining to the disadvantage of our people and expending millions of money much needed at home. It is time this Committee realised the important bearing the expenditure of so many millions has upon our domestic policy. If this expenditure of £40,000,000 brought us some tangible return for our money and effort, there might be something to he said for it, but we are to get nothing out of this deal whatsoever. If anything is made out of it it will go into the pockets of the commercial magnates who hope to own and control the rich oil deposits in this country. As it is our domestic policy is being crippled and held up. Education, public health, housing and all those things which go to make the lives of our people happy and comfortable, all those things which are going to make this land fit for heroes to live in are to-day jeopardised because of the reckless expenditure and folly of the Government.
If I venture to intervene in this Debate, particularly on the subject of our expenditure in Mesopotamia, it is not because I lay claim to any expert knowledge, but because, through the chances of war, I happen to belong to that possible minority who believe in Mesopotamia, in its future, in its people, and even in the land itself. And because it is my hope that the Committee may decide to-night that the mistakes which admittedly we have made in that country, costly though they have been, are neither past repair nor unworthy of reparation. It would appear to me that both of what I might describe as the extreme courses open to us are untenable. To hold Mesopotamia (and one must include Persia also) against all possible contingencies of Bolshevist aggression and internal disorder. To maintain a military occupation equal to all emergencies from Mosul to Basra, from Enzeli to Kermanshah, would mean the provision of men and money on a scab unthinkable. While to abandon our task, withdraw from the country, and renounce our mandate, would not only leave anarchy behind, but humiliation on our name. For after all, overriding all argument, there stand out our pledges to the Arab people, and the convenience of this country, and even up to a point the cost to this country cannot alone constitute deciding factors in our future action. And the advantage of the middle course, which I understand the Government have adopted, and which if boldly carried out will result in enormous saving, is that it not only conforms best with our circumstances of the moment, but also best fulfils our obligation to the Arab people. For while they claim, and justly claim, to be rid both of civil and military domination, they seek at the same time a measure of our help and guidance. And they need it in conditions of no small complexity.
I venture to think that in attempting to gauge expenditure in Mesopotamia the first point to be borne in mind is that we are dealing not only with a variety of religions and a variety of nationalities, but with a people in wholly different stages of development. There exist the marauding tribes, who during the War were content to harass the rear guards both of the British and the Turkish forces with complete impartiality. There are the peaceful tribes, sometimes nomadic, sometimes sedentary, who possess indeed highly-developed tribal and patriarchal institutions, but who remain on the whole in a stationary stage of civilisation. And there are towns like Basra, Amara, and Bagdad, containing an educated class of no mean standing in the order of civilisation.
I am not one of those who think that the East and the West are the same. But I do maintain that beyond all question Mesopotamia contains amongst its peoples men of eminence and ability, possessing a confidence in themselves which is based not on the superficial assumption of western culture, but on the inherited traditions of a race which has lost neither its pride nor its dignity. Men in other words whom we can trust, and whom it will pay us to trust, for if we do not trust them we become committed not only to perpetual expenditure but to periodical outbreaks of disorder. It may, therefore, be seen that many divergent problems have to be met, and for myself I am as anxious to see the retention of some British force in Mesopotamia, as I am anxious to see the end of our present huge military commitments. I am as anxious to see a large measure of self-government with powers to raise a local militia for the suppression of disorder as I would be unwilling to witness the abandonment of our task and the handing over of the country wholly to its own or other rulers. The most disquieting feature in recent disturbances which have done so much to swell these estimates arises from the fact that they have taken place not only among the lawless tribes, not only in places like Kerbela and Najif, whose fanaticism always renders them liable to turbulance, but in places like Sharoban and Bakuba, which for years have felt the weight, and it was hoped, the advantage of British influence. We have, therefore, to examine something deeper than mere unconquered lawlessness, and to inquire into something which comes more home to Western people, namely, the causes of discontent.
I trust I am not digressing beyond the bounds of this Debate if I say that the beginning of our troubles and the tragedy of Mesopotamia was the death of General Maude. It is given to few to possess in combination the qualities of an eminent soldier, a successful statesman, and a great gentleman. To maintain, as he did, a personal hold upon his forces, to secure the confidence of the local popula- tion, and to uphold a position of dignity and even in a sense of splendour which yet lacked all trace of personal ostentation, was an achievement which few could sustain, and it is meant as no reflection upon his successor to say that some at any rate of the qualities which I have enumerated henceforward were missing. It was the power of the machine that carried us through. It rolled on, but thenceforward the progress became more combersome. It became more heavy in its incidence, more complicated in its working, and more obscure in its purpose. The high hopes raised by the Proclamations and prestige of General Maude flickered out.
The picture is drawn, and, no doubt, in the ultimate event will be found to be true, of a Mesopotamia liberated by British arms from the oppression of the Turk. It is an open question, however, whether Turkish rule was so very oppressive. It was corrupt and stagnant, but it was easygoing, and it afforded no small measure of self-government to the community. When the liberators arrived, the Arab was relieved, indeed, of the corruption and stagnation of the Turk, but was also relieved of any semblance of participation in the affairs of the country. When there is small cooperation, little sympathy, and no self-government, to speak of liberation is to strain credulity to the breaking point. Every instinct of the Arab—his confidence in himself, his pride, and his love of freedom—revolted against a system which revelled in restrictions and complications, when a maximum of freedom and simplicity was essential. We are now on the threshold of better days, and the abandonment of our task, and, above all, our withdrawal from the country, would be nothing short of disaster. Unquestionably, in my opinion, some military force and some civilian organisation is necessary, but we must start with the premise —the neglect of which has been so disastrous in the past—that the Arabs are not a servile race. Mesopotamia could be governed and developed with what may seem to be almost a handful compared with the large army that we maintain there to-day. While, however, I believe in the possibility of large reductions, I believe equally strongly that some manifestation of British authority throughout Mesopotamia is desired by the Arabs themselves, and is necessary for the future of that country. Let it, however, be a British authority. Rightly or wrongly, the presence of Indian troops as their custodians, and, on occasion, of half-castes as their administrators, is regarded as an insult by the Arab people. I hope that the Government will stand firmly by their task and their policy. 1 hope that they will, in the first place, boldly reduce our military commitments, and hand over little by little the main task, not only of government, but of the preservation of order, to the Arabs themselves; and that, in the second place, they will refuse to abandon the country to an evil fate that it has not deserved.
Among the many items which arise on the Supplementary Estimates, I intend to confine my remarks entirely to the subject of Mesopotamia. Before I proceed, however, I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman who is now on the Government Bench (Mr. C. Harmsworth) to mention to the Secretary of State for War the great desire of those who are associated with me in the Army Committee that we should have, early next Session, some day for discussing the Territorial Force. That, however, is not a matter which arises now. There is, undoubtedly, with regard to Mesopotamia, both in the country at large and in this House, a great feeling of disappointment, and almost of resentment, that this large additional expenditure should be necessary. Arising out of that, there is a desire to blame the Government, the War Office, and the people on the spot. Before, however, we praise or blame, and before we decide whether we will give or withhold the money now asked for, it is essential that we should know the facts. If we decide to disapprove of this grant, we must be prepared to say why we do so, and what we should have done had we been in similar circumstances and in possession of similar information. To understand the present situation it is necessary to understand the causes and events that have led up to it. They may be roughly summarised in four big phases, leading up to four, on the whole, fairly well-defined, situations. Let us examine these four phases in turn.
There is first the initial phase. Why did we go to Mesopotamia at all? We sent troops, at the outbreak of war with Turkey, to the head of the Persian Gulf for two reasons. The first was to safeguard the pipe-line that runs down the Karun River from the Persian oilfields to the seaport of Abadan, on the Shatt-el-Arab. That is a most important source of oil for our Navy. The second reason was to prevent the Germans from establishing a submarine base there, whence they might easily have done great damage to vessels on our great Imperial line of communication through the Suez Canal to Australia, India, and the Far East. Both of these objects were of essential military importance, and we had no option but to send troops to carry them out. There was, at the end of this initial phase, no question that we were right in going there; we had to go there.
The second phase includes all the time covered by the military operations in Mesopotamia, that is to say, the period from 1914 to 1918. The two objects which made it imperative for us to go to Mesopotamia were, vice versâ, the same objects that impelled the Germans to urge the Turks to try to turn us out, and to move down to the south of Mesopotamia the largest force that their very indifferent communications would permit. It is not necessary, for our present purpose, to enter into the subsequent operations. Suffice it is to say that, at the end of that period, we found ourselves in occupation of practically the whole of Mesopotamia up to Mosul on the Tigris, up to and above Ana on the Euphrates, and into the hills along the Persian Border. The situation at the end of this second phase was the one in which we were at the conclusion of the Armistice with Germany. Some may say that we ought to have retired then from Mesopotamia, and I know that there are many who do say that. That, however, was not really a practical possibility. First of all, we were still at. war with Turkey; and, secondly, it would have been impossible for us, after having relieved the Mesopotamians from Turkish misrule and driven out the Turks, to leave the Arabs to the anarchy and internecine fighting and ruin that must certainly have supervened. We must remember that the Mesopotamians are not one nation. They are an aggregate of races and tribes sharply divided by very bitter religious feeling. This inter-tribal animosity had been carefully cultivated by the Turks, who, with very small numbers, by acting on the old motto, " Divide et impera," had been able to govern the country by setting one tribe against another. The condition of Mesopotamia in 1913-14, under the Turk, was very unsettled and poverty-stricken, in consequence of this inter-tribal fighting and the extortion of the tax-farmers. But the Turks did have some power behind them, they did have some method of government, and they did give a certain rough kind of justice, though it was venal and primitive. If, having turned the Turk out, we had immediately cleared out without substituting in his place any strong government, we should have left a most terrible state of affairs in that country. Nothing would have settled down until either the Turks under Mustapha Kemal and the Nationalists came back again, or until some tribe or race either within or without the Turkish border, after wading through seas of blood, had established its supremacy. That is not a fate that, once having gone to the country, we could contemplate. We could not possibly leave the people and tribes who had befriended us to the tender mercies of their enemies. Remember that after the fall of Kut the greater portion of those who sympathised with us were killed or maimed. The chiefs had both hands cut off and others had different parts of their anatomy removed. I say nothing now of the great necessity we had of trying, having gone into that country, to develop its wonderful potential resources, especially in food, in fuel, and in raw material. We should never have gone to the country for that reason, but once being there, we could not absolve ourselves of our responsibility. So much for the second phase and for the reasons which, in my opinion at least, made it impossible for us to withdraw at that time.
The third phase is in 1919. That is the phase of demobilisation. During that time the military authorities had a very difficult task. They had to keep in order a country which was unruly and in part hostile with an army the units of which were necessarily disorganised by the process of demobilisation, and with men and officers keen to get home as quickly as possible—a far from enviable task. On the other side, the civil authorities were doing their best to get some civil administration going. In the junior ranks the officers were very young and inexperienced. That could not be helped. There was no one else to get. The highest administrators on the civil side were men of great experience and capacity, and they took a certain line which some may consider to have been ill-advised, but they at least were the men on the spot. They did what they thought to be best in the circumstances, and it is all very well for us armchair critics afterwards to cast aspersions on what they did. It is very much easier to find fault with what has been done than to act.
Then we come to the fourth phase in 1920. That is the phase of the recrudescence of hostilities. Even before August, when the revolt broke out, a good deal of difficulty had manifested itself. The reasons are not far to seek. The first and most important cause was our great diminution in strength. We had reduced our Army, as we have heard to-night, from about 250,000 to about 75,000, and during the time of demobilisation both our units and our departments had necessarily to be somewhat disorganised, so that the fighting value of our force was diminished by more than the figures already given. There is nothing the Eastern admires more than strength and despises more than weakness. He thought we were weak, were going to abandon him and that now was his opportunity. The second cause was the indefiniteness of the future. The inhabitants did not know what was going to occur. We could not settle a policy until the Treaty of Peace was signed with Turkey. The result on the inhabitants was very unsettling, and afforded ground on which it was easy for an agitator to work. The next cause of disaffection was that we had all the disgruntled elements up against us. There were the magnates, who were irreconcilable, there were the small Turkish extortioners, who found their job gone, and there were the Arab raiders and robbers. In fact, all those whose means of existence by depredation had been stopped by British justice, and whose means of livelihood were therefore somewhat interfered with. Fourth strong cause was Reversion of Type, which I have not seen very much referred to, but which undoubtedly was an important cause. These tribes love fighting. In the good old days they were always fighting, and it is noticeable that the tribes which were fighting most on the Euphrates this year were the most troublesome in Turkish days. All these four causes, together with other minor factors, combined to make what I can only describe as a heap of tinder only waiting for some spark to cause it to blaze out into a conflagration of insurrection. This spark was given by the propaganda worked by Turkish Nationalists and by Russian Bolshevists. The resulting outbreak in August was a very serious one, so serious, as we have heard from the Treasury Bench to-day, that there was but one action to be taken, and that was to reinforce the depleted garrison. The resulting military operations were difficult owing to the scattered nature of the revolt and the difficulties of communication, but they were very well carried out, and the situation now is thoroughly in hand.
This brings us to the end of the fourth phase and to the present situation. At present we have practical peace in Mesopotamia. We have not got absolute peace. If we were to expect to get absolute peace for any length of time we should have to suppose that the Arabs and the races in that part had completely changed both their habits and their national pastime. It is not so very long ago that we in Scotland were fighting, clan against clan, and family against family. It took us some little time to break ourselves of what was then undoubtedly our national pastime. Golf and curling are national pastimes of more modern days. We have, I say, practical peace in Mesopotamia, and the reduction of the reinforcements which were poured into Mesopotamia has been rapidly proceeding. The process of raising Arab levies, both for external and internal security is going on well, and the levies are shaping well. That is not surprising. In every country where we have been in any way connected with the administration a handful of British officers has always been able to raise a very efficient police and fighting force from the native races. In Mesopotamia you have in the Arabs specially good material both for officers and men, and, in my opinion, and from what I have heard, it will not be so very long before we may expect to see those Arab levies standing alone. So much for the military side. On the civil side we have sent out the best possible man—Sir Percy Cox. He has to bring people who have always been under the domination of a foreign Power to a state in which they can govern themselves, and with them to form a strong Government. That is a task which must necessarily take a long time. It is a very difficult one, but to a great nation like ours and to a great leader of men difficulties are the savour of life.
Sensible business men when running a big business choose the best man they can, and, having chosen him, they give him their full confidence and support. Our duty in this House and in the country is clear. We have chosen the man pointed out by the finger of fate as being the man for the job. In order that he may have fair play and time to develop his policy, we must give him our wholehearted support, and must have patience, and we must not allow the constant carping that very often goes on, what I may call yapping at his heels. I thoroughly agree with the policy which has been enunciated by the Prime Minister on behalf of the Government. To reduce our commitments, to set up an Arab State under a British Mandate with an Arab police force and an Arab army, with a nucleus British force. I am fully persuaded that that is the right course to pursue.
Before I sit down I wish to clear away a misconception that seems to exist in the minds of some of those to whom I listen or whose articles I read, namely, that soldiers are desirous of being in Mesopotamia or Persia. No sane military authority would desire to lock up soldiers in positions that are so bad strategically, and in a region that is so far from the heart of the Empire. With so small an army as ours now is, and as it necessarily must be in the future, it is all important to keep it concentrated at places where the communications are so good that it can be rapidly transferred to wherever its services are necessary, and where, moreover, it can be properly trained. This is important at all times, and it is doubly essential with a newly-formed army of very young soldiers to concentrate it for training. Do not therefore look upon these commitments as "military stunts." The responsible soldier is entirely and absolutely against them, from the military point of view. It is for these reasons that I very heartily welcome the policy that has been outlined by the Government, and that I intend to vote for giving them the necessary money.
9.0 P.M.
During the course of a very long and eloquent speech the Secretary of State for War informed the Committee that there must be some limits to the responsibilities of Britain. Looking at that statement from the point of view of the original Estimates for his Department in March last, amounting to £125,000,000, and this Supplementary Estimate amounting to £39,750,000, or a total expenditure of £164,750,000, one would almost be forced to the conclusion that his policy was not limited and that there was no necessity for his Department, having any regard for economy. One portion of the Estimates referring to the Middle East deals with three distinct adventures. First in East Persia, secondly in North Persia, and thirdly in Mesopotamia. In East Persia it appears from the information one gets from Indian sources that a permanent motor road was laid through Persia to Russian territory. Barracks with baths and other conveniences were built on a lavish scale for the Indian troops. All this money was expended without authority being obtained from this 9.0 P.M. Parliament. The facts as to this adventure have come largely from the Anglo-Indian Press. The "Times of India" assumes that the cost of this adventure will total a sum in the region of £100,000,000. The item in the Supplementary Estimates of £10,000,000 to be repaid to the Indian Government possibly relates to this particular adventure. The object of this road, in the opinion of many persons, was to press forward an offensive against Soviet Russia. It is absurd on the face of it for the Secretary of State for War to suggest that this was for defensive purposes. How could Soviet Russia be a danger to India in a military sense after the ruin of war, when the old Czarist Government, before the Anglo-Russian Agreement, was not a danger in the sense that we required to invade Persia for the purpose of defending India.
The right hon. Gentleman must not forget that the Russians did actually attack Persia.
I am dealing with our adventure in Persia, and our using Persia for the purpose, presumably, of defending India. This road is now falling into disrepair, and, so far as information that comes to hand from Anglo-Indian sources, leads us to believe it is useless for trade. It would be interesting to know what was the real cost of this adventure. The "Times of India "suggests that it cost about £100,000,000, while the London "Times" in a leading article says that it cost about £50,000,000. Whatever it cost, that' must be added to the £100,000,000 which have already been spent in a futile attack against Soviet Russia. In West Persia we also had a force. This force was connected in some mysterious way with the Baku oilfield in association with Denikin. The Denikin fleet was discarded. The naval mission, which has just returned from captivity in Baku, was, as its own frank statement in the Press shows, out to reorganise the Denikin fleet for service against the Soviets, and to prevent Russia getting oil, which is for her a necessity of life. Oil is the fuel usually burned by the Volga steamers. It is used on several of the railways and also for lighting the homes of the peasants during the winter. Whatever the intention of his experiment was, the Soviet Government recovered Baku, but our forces remained guarding Denikin's ships. The Soviet fleet appeared and recovered these ships. What was the further use of a land force? According to the Secretary of State for War, it was impossible in present conditions that this force could have been withdrawn because of the state of the passes. I expect that the snows of winter will have made the passes impossible. Therefore, these 3,600 men, or whatever the number, are still there and they are in danger of the Soviet army. If the danger is as real, as, the question put to me by the Parliamentary Secretary of the Foreign Office would lead us to believe, from the Soviet army, if it chose to attack before this little force of ours can be reinforced or supported, why is our force left there? What is the justification for the risk it runs or the expense that is involved? I would like the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman that this force will be withdrawn—or does it mean that it is being kept there for some other little adventure against Soviet Russia?
I can give my right hon. Friend the most complete assurance on that. We have consistently pressed for the withdrawal of this force for more than a year, but we have had to defer to the needs of the people of Persia and give them an opportunity to set up some method of defence of their own. This has been a great strain on our resources and we shall be delighted, from the War Office point of view, the moment the signal is given for the force to return.
So far as I gather from the statement this afternoon, there was not much prospect of Persia being able to undertake its national defence.
Quite true.
There are two adventures which, in the opinion of many of us, were quite unnecessary, and have involved a great deal of money at a time when this country could not afford it. We have been told over and over again by leading Members of the Government that the people of this country required to exercise the most rigid economy, and that unless they were prepared to do so there was grave danger of financial disaster overtaking this country. Personally, I believe that there is grave danger of financial disaster unless rigid economy is exercised, but the application of economy will require to be exercised by members of the Cabinet as well as by the people of the country themselves. There is more responsibility resting on members of the Government than upon the people themselves, because the people have entrusted the Government for the time being with the spending of the money obtained by taxation. These were two little military adventures. Personally, I do not think that there was much necessity for them to be undertaken. A considerable amount of money was spent on each, and this must be added to the huge sum previously spent on our adventures to defeat Soviet Russia.
The Secretary of State for War told us this afternoon that the intention was as soon as this rebellion was crushed, so far a Mesopotamia was concerned, to set up an Arab Ministry very quickly. What sort of Ministry is it intended to set up? Is it to be modelled on the lines of the Indian Ministry? As the Committee knows, our methods of governing India have not been satisfactory to India. Is this to provide positions for a very large number of the people drawn from this country? The nature of the Ministry that we are prepared to set up will settle largely this question of our future in Mesopotamia. I did not gather whether the Secretary of State for War proposes to withdraw our troops to the Coast and leave the government of the country entirely to the Arabs themselves. He may tell us when he comes to reply what is the intention of the Government as regards setting up this Ministry. He might be able to tell us whether it will be an independent Arab Ministry that will be able to govern in accordance with the native ideas—because I would point out to the Secretary of State for War that if we are to govern according to our mandate from the League of Nations in Mesopotamia, we ought to have some regard for the desires of the governed—or whether it is simply to be a tame Government set up to carry out the ideas of the British Government?
It will have the task of defending itself. What sort of force is to be set up for that purpose? Is it to be composed entirely of the natives, or are British soldiers in any considerable number to remain in the country? Unless Mesopotamia has the means of defence it will be open to attack. If peace is not made with the Soviet Government, for instance, the new Arab State will be open to attack. The surest means of ensuring the safety of the Arab Government would be for the British Government and its Allies to come to peace with the Government of Russia at the earliest possible moment. I want to know, also, whether we shall exercise our mandatory powers to the extent of claiming special rights in Mesopotamia? Shall we claim special rights so far as the oil deposits are concerned? Already there are considerable misgivings in certain quarters as to what we intend to do. I understand that certain steps have been taken by the United States Government with a view to ascertaining exactly what our intentions are. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman of the serious trouble that arose in Morocco between France and Germany over the deposits there. It led to the increase of armaments and possibly hastened the Great War. If those events are not to be taken as lessons for our guidance it will be a tragedy, particularly in the case of France and Great Britain, which have paid such a great price for mistakes in the past. It may be that if we have made up our mind to reserve these oil deposits to ourselves, our action may lead again to the building up of armaments—
The Prime Minister said the opposite.
I did not gather that the Prime Minister said the opposite.
Yes, he did.
I thought he rather took the line of the right hon. Gentleman himself, namely, that only those who were prepared to pay part of the money required for establishing stable government in such a country as Mesopotamia could have very much right to speak regarding its destiny. Any profits accruing from these oil deposits ought to be used for the benefit of the natives of that country. The natives ought to get the benefit of the oil deposits there.
Then there would be no oil, for they could not get it out.
If we are to do justice the profits ought to be used for the benefit of the natives and not be used for the payment of big dividends to cosmopolitan companies. In exercising our mandate for Mesopotamia, if we are to carry out the principles laid down by the League of Nations, we must have regard to the feelings and the interests of the inhabitants of that country. We can do that only by seeing that we set up a government in accord with their ideals and by determining that whatever riches the country contains shall be used for their benefit rather than for the benefit of foreign corporations.
I need offer no apology to the Committee for intervening in this Debate. If I were a stranger coming into the House of Commons to listen to the Debate, the first consideration that would spring to my mind would be that here we are, two years after a war that was to end war, discussing a Supplementary Estimate of nearly £40,000,000 which is to make the cost of the Army £165,000,000 for the year. The next thing I would consider as an impartial observer would be that during all this discussion we have heard nothing except as to how this money can be expended for the further efficiency of our war machines and for the creation of military force. Not one word have we heard as to the heroes who fought in the last War. They seem to have been forgotten altogether. While the House of Commons itself is engaged in this military task, preparing for potential wars or dealing with a series of small wars that are to-day defacing humanity in every part of Europe, there is no consideration for the vast army of heroes who are unemployed men to-day in every great industrial community in this nation. It might also be observed that while these heroes who fought in the great War for four long weary years are marching through our snowy streets appealing and seeking, not for heroic conditions, but for the ordinary simple comforts of democratic life, this country, instead of grappling with this, the greatest of all social evils, is considering a £40,000,000 Supplementary Estimate added to an Estimate of over £165,000,000 for the purpose of further equipping this nation to deal with potential war difficulties. Yet in the House of Commons the Leader of the House was asked to-day to give time for the discussion of this, the most vital and pressing of human problems, the question of unemployment, and he told us we could come here and discuss it on the Consolidated Fund Bill, which is a very unimportant concession of time to this insistent and pressing demand which all passionate lovers of humanity are fighting for to-day. This is the greatest and most urgent problem that can affect a nation. We see signs in all our great communities of discontent. We see growing and developing a passionate indignation against what is going on, and we even hear the richest in this community complaining of the flowing expenditure of public money on uneconomic causes, and even some of the most important and some of the most powerful of our magnates here have prophesied that this country is on the verge of bankruptcy.
That is the position which presents itself to this nation to-day, when the House of Commons, almost with a spirit of airiness, is discussing the addition of £40,000,000 to the cost of the Army in these islands, and wherever Imperialism raises its head. I did not rise to discuss this aspect of the question. I think it is very relevant to this discussion that on the expenditure of a sum so large, when we in Ireland present the most tragic spectacle in the Empire to-day, that we should take advantage of this Supplementary Vote to raise our feeble protest against the continuance in Ire land of an Army of Occupation. As I have said, you have clamouring demands for money to deal with the most pressing of public problems, and when in a Parliament, as in a private concern, you come to discuss your expenditure, you are entitled to ask, and I as one of the shareholders in the great Imperial concern of the Empire ask the directors of that Empire to answer me this question, "Do you think that the investment of something like between £15,000,000 and £20,000,000 on the maintenance of a military machine and of an Army in Ireland is giving you the adequate reward to which you are entitled for the investment which you have made? "We were not merely told that this was a War to end war, a rhetorical prophecy which has not been fulfilled, for there are more wars than there were before the last Great War. But we were told also that the War would end in this land being made a land for heroes to live in. It does not require a very picturesque rhetorician from Ireland or anywhere else to answer the question, Is England a land for heroes to live in to-day? You may see if it is, or not for yourselves. Finally, this War was to be fought, according to the propagandists who car ried the flag of war over the world, in order to crush military power in every country in Europe. Yet in the only country which you control you have not only not killed militarism, but you have put into operation there a military machine so powerful and so crushing that it has roused in the nation where it applies and where it falls a passion and a spirit of revolt which has been un-paralled in that country for half a century.
I ask again, in any of these respects have your investments brought forward to the shareholders profitable results? If they have not, you ought to wind up the company, at least in so far as Ireland is concerned, and try some other method. I put a question to the right hon. Gentleman the other day as to what was the cost of the army of occupation in Ireland, and he told us it was £1,200,000 a month. That is nearly £15,000,000 a year. I believe that is not all. I do not know exactly what that covers.
My hon. Friend asked me the cost of the army in Ireland. I gave him the cost. I did not give him the extra cost over and above what the Army Estimates would bear in the ordinary course. I gave him the total cost of the troops in Ireland. If there were no extra troops in Ireland they would be here, and the amount would be the same.
He says the army would be required in any case, and they are in ' Ireland, but if they are only needed in Ireland what would be necessity for them at all? The point is very important. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that the £15,000,000 does not cover the extra charges. I would like to know from the right hon. Gentleman what the extra charges are. I believe the total sum would be over £20,000,000 a year, or very near to that. Over and above all that, if the cost of the military machine in Ireland to-day, which is a substitute you offer for the establishment of free constitutional government, is £20,000,000, then that has not been all the cost within the past twelve months, as I can prove to the Committee there has been something like £15,000,000 at least, and probably £20,000,000 worth of damage to property destroyed in Ireland. There has not only been £15,000,000 worth of property destroyed, but there has been the suspension of business, the ruin of industrial concerns, and the enormous amount of unemployed. If all these things were to be totted up—and I am now presenting this as a pure commercial transaction divorced altogether from sentiment—hate Ireland as deeply as you like, regard it as an impossible and hopeless country, consider it as worthless as the hon. Member opposite told us were the oilfields in Mesopotamia. I was very glad to hear that those oilfields were of no value. That was rather a suspicious forerunner to the declaration of the Prime Minister that you were going to get out of Mesopotamia. I thought so. What I was saying was this: Forget that you are dealing with Ireland at all, and judge these things purely as a commercial transaction, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman will he get up in this House and stand at the Table and say that the expenditure of nearly £40,000,000 in a little country, your neighbour, and a country that was and might be your friend, that in this country this vast flow of public money and all that it stands for has fallen into the reservoir of usefulness and has not created oceans of discontent and hatred?
There are at present unemployed in Great Britain over 1,000,000 men. Look what that money could do for them. In my own city of Belfast and in my own constituency, and in the constituencies of the hon. Gentlemen opposite, this is very serious, and the right hon. and learned Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) has viewed the condition in Belfast with the deepest concern, because unemployment does not alone affect the person unemployed. An unemployed per son in time of peace is the most tragic of human figures. A man who wants to work and who has the health and strength to work and who cannot secure that work through economic conditions is a piteous figure, and the State ought to be ashamed that conditions render it possible, but here in Belfast alone there are on the 20th of this month nearly 30,000 women to be thrown out of employment by the closing of our mills and factories in one of the great staple industries upon which the prosperity and the greatness of that city depends. I was told by the right hon. and learned Gentleman myself that he expects not so great, but almost as frightful a condition of things to exist in the shipyards, and here are 30,000, mostly women, who have lived from hand to mouth, whose hours were long, whose wages were perhaps the worst wages in the three Kingdoms, who were not able to save, who laboured under conditions—
I am sorry to interrupt, but I venture to put it that when we are debating Army Supplementary Estimates the condition of the unemployed in Belfast, however regrettable it may be, is not in order.
It depends on how the hon. Member uses the argument.
You may understand, Sir, that I will not pursue the subject further than I am entitled to by reference to the general question. We could all be happy if we did not think of these things. They made no money out of the War. They are the pale-faced women, not the hard-faced men, whom I represent and for whom I speak in this House, and when you are scattering money broadcast, carrying on militarism throughout the world, I am entitled to ask for these women who are to be thrown on the charity of their city and their friends and to plead for them as the first and most vital consideration in the expenditure of public money. I do not say the Leader of the House does not feel this question acutely. Nothing of the sort. I believe he does feel it acutely personally, and every humane man must feel it acutely, but I think he did not grapple with the vital importance of it sufficiently in offering to take the last day or so of a Session to discuss it. If my hon. Friend below me (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks) was Leader of the House, he would act more humanely, no doubt, but we will have to wait for that historic event. What have we been doing in this House for the last three months? How have we been spending our time? Is it on the question of how taxation is to be reduced, or on the question of unemployment? Almost every day that an opportunity is given, the only passion that exists in this House, the only deep feeling that finds articulation, has been the discussion of the affairs of Ireland. Ireland is, discussed on the Adjournment almost every other day. These are the questions that we have been discussing in the House of Commons, because the conditions there are of such a character that it makes it a vital necessity that these questions should be raised as long as you persist in acting in a different spirit in Ireland from that in which you have declared at that Bench today you are going to act in Persia and Mesopotamia. I have heard eloquent sentences to-day from the Treasury Bench upon the ancient culture of the Arabs and how they led the way in Eastern civilisation, and glowing pictures of their glory were painted from that Bench to-day.
The right hon. Gentleman opposite, no doubt, was very eloquent and most informative, and delivered one of the most brilliant speeches I have listened to in this House, and taught me more than I have learned by being in this House for 20 years. Fortunately I have not a cosmopolitan nor an international mind. My interest is in my own people. It needs all our passion and all our power to fight our cause, and therefore I may be forgiven if I leave that aspect of it, but our culture is as ancient. The work of our nation, in the task of humanising and of carrying the lamp of civilisation, has been as bright and undimmed as that of any nation in the world. The form of the military government in Ireland has been one of the most horrible things in history. I have never attacked the military in Ireland. Their task was a very terrible task. I have always confined myself in this House, not to attacks upon men in Ireland who are the instruments of the Government, but I have attacked the Government themselves.
The method by which the Government have carried on their military system in Ireland has been so indefensible that they elected a gentleman to be Chief Secretary for Ireland who will defend anything. He does not defend by a process of subtle and manifestly well-arranged argument. That is what the right hon. Gentleman opposite would do. The right hon. Gentleman, if I might put it in a popular sense, would put the best face he could on it, but the Chief Secretary's one method of dealing with these things—and they are very terrible things—is to deny everything point-blank. If we had 80 Members in this House, instead of three or four under present conditions, there would be no military machine working the country. So deeply do I value the opportunity which this House affords, inadequate as I am for the task, of exposing all the things that go on in Ireland, that even if I were assailed from Monday morning till Saturday night in Ireland for being here, and attacked by every Member of this House for being here, I would go on with the task which my heart and conscience dictate that I ought to pursue, and that is the spirit of my colleagues as well as myself. I have said I do not want to attack the military, but I come to the methods by which things are being carried on in Ireland. The men mainly responsible for all the terrible mischief and the horrible things going on in Ireland are the men who describe themselves as "Tudor's Toughs." Someone suggests that they should be called "Churchill's Lambs." I do not suggest that at all. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman, if he were not a Member of the Coalition Government, and had not to support everything going on in Ireland, has sufficient humanity in him to have his whole nature stirred by these events, just as deeply as mine is. These men are paid £1 a day. [AN. HON. MEMBER: "Who are?"] The Black-and-Tans.
On a point of Order. I venture once more to intervene. We are discussing Army Supplementary Estimates. We have listened to a great deal on Ireland, and now the hon. Gentleman is discussing the question of Black-and-Tans, which has nothing to do with the Army, and I ask whether that comes within the purview of the Vote we are discussing?
On a point of Order. May I ask if this force is not under the control of the Military Governor of the area which is now under martial law in Ireland, and, therefore, is not this force within the purview of the British Army of occupation in Ireland?
May I submit that there is no money whatever in any of the Votes which are now before the Committee to deal with this corps, which is borne on the Irish Office Vote?
Am I not correct in stating that on Supplementary Estimates it is not in order to discuss the whole policy of the Vote, but merely to discuss whether or not it is advisable to grant these Supplementary Estimates? Has not that been the ruling of the Chair for a great number of years?
The right hon. Gentleman defended part of the increase by stating that additional soldiers were required because of unrest, including unrest in Ireland, and if the hon. Gentleman can show that the purpose for which this additional money is spent is causing unrest, is he not in order?
Before you give any decision, Mr. Whitley, I want to put another point, which is my real point. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War was taunted to-day with not understanding his own Estimates. If he will read his own Estimates he will see that part of the money is for motor lorries which carry around Black-and-Tans.
I think the position is quite clear. If hon. Members will look at page 3 of the Memorandum they will see that
"The disturbed conditions in Ireland have also involved increased expenditure. Apart from the general increase in the numbers of British troops mentioned above, additional expense, amounting to some £1,500,000, has been caused by the provision of motor lorries and armoured cars, and by special measures to increase the well-being of the troops in the exceptional conditions of service in Ireland."
With regard to the point of the right hon. Baronet, the magnitude of this Supplementary Vote does give a substantial width to the discussion beyond that of an ordinary small Supplementary Estimate. It is also true that the money for what are called Black-and-Tans does not come on this Vote, and, therefore, their conduct as such ought not to be discussed to-day. But I think there is ample scope for the hon. Member in this £1,500,000, which is included in the Vote now before the Committee.
I thought my position was even more secure. Not only does the Memorandum contain the statement you have recited, but it specifically mentions the cost of armoured cars and motor lorries. These armoured cars and motor lorries carry these Black and Tans, and most of the criminal proceedings that have been carried on in Ireland, most indefensible of all the outrages, have been carried on in these motor lorries, so that I am doubly armed. I am armed, first of all, in the Vote itself, and the declaration that this money is wanted in Ireland, and armed also in that you have pointed out that it is specifically mentioned in the Memorandum. These men travel all over the country, firing shots in the air, frightening innocent people, terrorising women, and even shooting women, on motor lorries, for which this Committee is asked to give a Vote to-day, and on motor lorries, which go through peaceful agricultural districts, where there is neither crime nor even agitation, terrorising these people who are guilty of no offence. During the last week when there was not a single murder of a policeman or soldier in Ireland—I believe someone was shot in an ambush. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] But I cannot catch the interjection of the hon. Member who has just spoken if it is delivered in a chorus ! What happened? I do not believe anyone was shot, but even if it were so, is it to be argued that at a time when all these horrible occurrences are dying out, and a spirit of universal peace exists, and there is a passion in the heart of every man to-bring it to an end—at a time when there is not a single occurrence of this character, that the Black and Tans, or whoever it was of the uniformed officers of the Crown—you can decide amongst yourselves who did it—come into one of the most important and quietest cities in Europe and burn down 300 houses. I would like to draw the attention of the hon. and gallant Gentleman below me (Colonel J. Ward) to this particular case, for I believe in this matter he would act honestly, and would denounce wrong, whoever committed it. Apparently, a soldier was shot at, and out come these men, poured petrol over the chief buildings and over one of the most beautiful buildings in Europe, the City Hall of Cork. [ Interruption. ] I beg hon. Members to allow me to go on, I am dealing with a very serious matter. They burned down 300 houses, including the City Hall and other magnificent public buildings, and ruined property to a total amount of £3,000,000. May I also point out to hon. Members opposite that the biggest of these shops, and some of the most important of these commercial concerns burned down, belonged to Unionists. I do not know why the hon. Gentleman opposite shakes his head.
That is my point.
I was not talking to you at all.
I would ask hon. Members to remember that it is not in order to indulge in these interjections.
I know, Sir.
I am not complaining about your interruptions at all—
On a point of Order. May I ask, Sir, that the hon. Member should address the Chair.
Hon. Members can address the Chair if other hon. Members do not distract their attention by observations of one sort and another.
10.0 P.M.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman is distracting my attention, and makes me forget I am in Parliament. Here is a point I want to put to one party in the House. One defence that has been offered for this policy of reprisals that it was the natural outcome of the indignation of soldiers or police on some outrage that has been committed. Is there anyone in this House, I care not how militarist he is, who will say that by any stretch of partisanship or prejudice or inclination to the military, he can justify the burning down of 300 houses and of great commercial concerns, many of which belonged to leading Unionists in the City of Cork, and all of them of tremendous value to those who owned them? Does anyone defend a transaction of this character? Yet I have heard hon. Members here most indignant against anyone who dares to raise his voice against these outrages perpetrated on the score that they were acts of reprisal. This was not an act of reprisal. This was done, in my judgment, because of the conduct of the Government, because of the light airy way in which they have dealt with this question of reprisals. All they have done has been to say: "Oh, we do not believe it was the military, or the auxiliary force, or the cadets, or the police that did so and so." Really 1 am amazed at hon. Members' interruptions. I get all my information on these matters from English newspapers, from journals of high integrity and honour. They may have their political opinions. I do not think they tell deliberate lies. They go over to Ireland, record what takes place, and give a description of the result of these outrages. I have never got a communication from a single Sinn Feiner on this or any other matter since I came into the House. They will not communicate with me at all.
What I said in the House the other night I repeat. I am not concerned with the combatants in this war, but I am concerned with the innocent victims, the non-combatants. Are we who denounced the sack of Louvain and the destruction of cathedrals in Belgium by the Germans to sit here and give our sanction to proceedings of a far more infamous character? You have your mighty military force in Ireland to deal with such powers as you are dealing with, and this policy of universal destruction goes on! What is the latest thing done in the name of the military? Martial law has been proclaimed in many counties in the South of Ireland. What has been brought out most strikingly in the Proclamations put out by the Government that anyone who is carrying arms in these counties will subject themselves, if caught, to the penalty of death, and that any person or persons who harbour them will be liable to the death sentence. What does this mean? It may mean that many young fellows who are Sinn Feiners, who believe they are fight- ing in a just cause and may have arms, but in whose heart there is not a single spark of murderous intent, if found with a rifle or revolver, may not only be sentenced to death, but mother, father, sister, or brother with whom he is may also be condemned to death. That is magnificent!
That is the magnificent fruits of the fight against militarism. Was there ever anything like it in all the world? The domestic life of the most innocent citizens in the country is threatened with desecration and destruction. That is not all. The money in this Vote, as I understand, is needed to carry on this war. In the Estimates it is declared that the money is for motor lorries and armoured cars to carry the military though the villages. Again I ask hon. Members, as shareholders in this great concern, the Empire, are you satisfied with the results, because when you started this policy—over 12 months ago—or whenever was started what is known as the vigorous policy—and defended by a vigorous Chief Secretary, who defends everything by saying nothing—he will defend whatever may be done—when you started this policy Ireland was 20 times less in revolt than she is to-day? What you have done is this, you have aroused the passions of the whole community. You have frightened these people to such an extent that they are afraid to sleep in their beds at night. I could publish a book almost as large as the printed copies of the permanent records of the OFFICIAL REPORT with letters I have received myself from innocent people throughout the country telling me the piteous story of the treatment accorded to them and their families, a record which, if it were published, would make the name of the British Empire a byeword throughout the world and make every one of you statesmen blush for shame.
You have fanned the flames of hatred, you have impregnated into a healthy community fresh poison, you have gone on from bad to worse, and things are now so bad that I do not think they can be worse; and you are flattered to-day with the prospect that it is all going to end. A month ago it was all ending. A month ago murder had been brought to a termination, reprisals were not to occur again. There have been twenty times more murders since that prophecy was made, and there have been more infamous reprisals every day since that most promising story was told by the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland. May I read to the House just one passage from a recent declaration by General Tudor, and may I call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to this? It is very important. They are always denying any part in what is known as reprisals, but which I call indefensible outrages upon innocent people. If anyone has done anything wrong and you get him, you can punish him. What right have you to torture people who are guilty of nothing? What right have you to burn down a property built up by years of sacrifice on the part of innocent people? General Tudor in a declaration which he has made says all this horrible work has been done by the men whom he controls. I am sorry the Chief Secretary is not here to listen to this statement: understand—and this is why I am so angry—is that you will in the most flippant way defend the most outrageous transaction occurring in Ireland and call it war. A number of Sinn Feiners on the hillsides and the great British Army planted in every part of the country, and you call that war, and you are not satisfied with the ordinary morals of war. There is a name that to-day frightens little children in Ireland, and it is Cromwell. But Cromwell's massacres were never half so bad as some of these things. But what did Cromwell say even when he was carrying out that cruel policy which was to end the Irish Question—the policy of attack and reprisals which was to solve the Irish problem in 1641?
1641! Oh, Lord!
The hon. Gentleman knows more about a balance sheet than an historical event.
Cromwell was not there in 1641.
Oh, is that where you are? This is one of the Parliamentary abnormalities. He gets excited at something that occurred 400 years ago. I do not mind. It is a sort of dissipation from reading balance-sheets.
On a point of Order. The hon. Member is utterly inaccurate and ten years out of date, and is referring to the reign of Charles I, when he should be speaking about these motor lorries.
I understand the hon. Member was introducing a contrast between the present régime and some other régime. I do not think the date alters the substance of his argument.
I will not enter into a Parliamentary reprisal with the hon. Gentleman. What was Cromwell's order? As one of his admirers wrote,
"Strict discipline was maintained, soldiers being hanged for stealing chickens."
And as I am reminded by my hon. Friend the Member for Scotland Division a distinguished ancestor of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Churchill), the Duke of Marlborough, used all his efforts, and I think successfully, to put down reprisals. [HON. MEMBERS: "What date?"] This is all very cheap. The merry profiteers who come almost at midnight into the House of Commons can offer no more in- telligent contribution to our affairs than to sit and sneer and laugh. A nation may die, and these things can go on. What regard have they for what is going on in Ireland under this military system to-day as described by English journalists? I know hon. Gentlemen opposite do not like English journalists, and they can go out if they do not want to hear me. This is from one of your English papers:
"No one who has spent the last few days in Cork can read Sir Hamar Greenwood's speeches without feelings of despair at his apparent credulity and limited knowledge of the country. His answers show how badly is needed a civil inquiry into the appalling disaster in Cork."
The Chief Secretary denied that it was a uniformed force that did these acts, and yet the men charged with them have been taken out of Cork and sent to another part, and I will tell the Committee of some of their performances. This paper says that the Report says not a word of the acts of terrorism which followed the ambush, which clearly revealed a spirit of revenge among the forces of the Crown. The police fired wildly into a tramcar, and people were fired at as they were going home, men were seen to set fire to property and challenge the fire brigade, and this state of things was fully described by the correspondent of the "Manchester Guardian."
On a point of Order.
Do not give way.
On a point of Order. Will other Members be allowed to discuss the murder of officers of the British Army in Ireland on this Supplementary Estimate, or are we to sit here and listen to these long reports being read out without having a right of reply?
I under stand you ruled just now that this matter could be connected with the Army Vote if these men were in motor lorries. The hon. Member has just stated that this outrage which he is describing took place in a tram.
That has nothing whatever to do with it.
I venture to submit that this outrage is not connected directly or indirectly with the Supplementary Estimate.
Did not the hon. Member, in introducing his case on this Estimate, complain that the money was being used for the continuance of reprisals, and therefore is not that within the scope of the Vote?
If hon. Members will be good enough to allow me to conduct the Debate I will do so. The hon. Member for the Falls Division was quite correct a little while ago in basing his remarks on the increased cost of the military in Ireland, which is asked for under this Vote, He has been directing his remarks to matters for which the Secretary of State for War can be held responsible, and that is the conduct of the military as distinct from the police in Ireland.
If I had not been interrupted I would have finished my speech by now. I apologise for having detained the House at such length. I do not very often impose myself upon it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]
May I remind hon. Members that we come here to listen. That is the greater part of our purpose.
I have sat here since four o'clock waiting my turn. You, Sir, very kindly asked me not to introduce this question until all the other matters had been dealt with, and it was only then that rose. It was thanks to your courtesy and to suit the convenience of the Committee. The hon. Member only came into the House five minutes ago—
Oh, oh!
The hon. Member must please allow me to conduct the Debate.
If you will conduct it.
Perhaps the hon. Member will do me the courtesy to allow me to do so.
Unfortunately, I have not been able to be here for the last four or five days, but I have read some of the most bitter and provocative diatribes against Ireland by the hon. Gentleman, as well as attacks upon priests; and I shall show in a moment what the result of those attacks have been. And yet, coming into the Committee five minutes ago, he dares to appeal to you not to listen to me on this question. I have read what happened to this priest; but what happens then? These men are withdrawn from Cork City. If they were not guilty, why were they withdrawn? The moment they are with drawn, and sent to West Cork, here is the first thing they do. I have received this telegram:
"Regret to inform you that Canon Magner, of Dunmanway, was shot dead by Auxiliaries."
This occurred to-day in West Cork. These men left Cork City and went to West Cork; and the hon. Gentleman is laughing.
rose —
Sit down and behave yourself!
Will the hon. Member for the Falls Division observe the usual practice of addressing the Chair?
The hon. Gentleman, on two occasions the other night, made bitter and violent attacks on priests, wanted more troops sent to Ireland—
Where is my speech saying that? I claim the protection of the Chair.
The hon. Member was in the middle of a sentence, and until he has completed it I cannot rule on it.
It is about the eighth time that he has said it.
I think there are black-and-tans elsewhere than in Ireland. I have discharged my duty, as a Member of the House of Commons, in explaining, not in my own language, not from any tainted source, but from the testimony of impartial men, Englishmen, correspondents of great British newspapers like the "Times," the "Manchester Guardian," the "Evening Standard," even the "Morning Post"—I have got some of the information which I have brought before the Committee from the "Morning Post": that is all I know about it. I read these things, not in Irish newspapers, but in English newspapers, written by men of high distinction, who are honoured in their profession; and I am told that I am not to be listened to and am not to bring them forward here. If I were a Minister, I would be delighted to have them brought forward, that I might face and meet them, and clear the fair fame of this great Empire from the shame which attaches to it for these horrors which I have ventured to recite. If the right hon. Gentleman has any regard for the honour of the Forces which he controls, let him put an end to these things. You have been preaching peace, and you are anxious for peace. Is it upon these grim foundations that the fabric of peace is to be built; or are you going to stop all these horrors which are arousing such deep and bitter resentment in the hearts of the people? On that road you do not reach the summit of your ambition, if your ambition be peace. That road leads to destruction, for there is no part of the Empire where Christian men live that will not cry shame on your name if you allow these things to continue.
I hope that the Committee will not allow the calm temper of mind in which it has approached the serious questions which are dealt with in these Estimates to be interfered with by the exciting topics and the vehement gestures and manifestations which have been introduced into our discussion at this late hour. So far as I have anything to add in concluding this Debate, if my remarks do conclude it, it is with the intention of pouring oil on the troubled waters.
Mesopotamian oil.
I am coming to that. I trust it may have an equally emollient effect in that theatre as in this stormy Irish arena. I have a great measure of sympathy with my hon. Friend (Mr. Devlin) because he is fighting as well as he can, with all his might and main, for the cause of his country and he is fighting it by constitutional methods. In my opinion it takes a great deal more pluck to stand up day after day against a necessarily hostile House of Commons than it does to lie behind a hedge waiting to shoot some poor Irish constable when he is on the way home to his wife and children after his day's work is done, and although the hon. Member necessarily presses his parliamentary rights and claims to the utmost limits, this House was meant to be a place in which parliamentary rights could be pushed and which is strong enough to contain and to express in a great measure and to a high degree the legitimate passions of men engaged in representative discussions. But I do not think my hon. Friend is quite just—how could we expect him to be?—to this larger island. He made his scornful reference to the war to end war. We all hoped in this country that the close of the great struggle meant a cessation, at any rate in our lifetime, of the grosser forms of strife among men. So far as Ireland is concerned, who began the new strife? We did not begin it. Until about 150 police men and soldiers had been shot dead, there was no disturbance and disorder in Ireland of the kind of which my hon. Friend has made such great complaint. It was not until this powerful country was attacked in a most direct and cruel and treacherous manner, through the person of its humble agents, that after a long period of time a violent condition of affairs descended upon Ireland, and certainly I cannot feel that the responsibility for forcing those conditions, approximating to guerilla warfare, which are undoubtedly ruling in parts of Ireland at present, and for inducing and recreating this condition, rests with the British Government, or the British nation, who were ready as they have never been ready before on the authority of all the estates of the Realm and both great parties in the State, to confer upon the Irish people the effective means of managing their own affairs. But at the very moment when they were coming forward with this good gift in the spirit of that victory of the War to end war, they found themselves confronted with a murder campaign before which no man with an ounce of spirit in his nature would allow himself to be quelled or forced into submission. I feel that although I make every allowance, and we have to make every allowance, for the feelings of the hon. Member representing, with a handful of Irishmen, and distinguished Irishmen, Irishmen who have all their lives fought for the self-government, the self-determination of their country, and fought by fair means—I feel the greatest sympathy with him, but one must repulse and repudiate on behalf of the House of Commons and the majority of this great nation the responsibility for the state of affairs that exists in Ireland. It can be remedied at a stroke. Let murder stop, let constitutional dominion begin, let the Irish people carry the Debate from the squalid con ditions in which it is now being pushed forward by the Irish murder gang—
And by the Government.
Let them carry this Debate into the field of fair discussion. Let them press their constitutional claims, as all the people of the British Isles have a right to do, in the great constitutional Parliamentary assemblies of the Nation, and they will find that instantly there will be a release of all those harsh and lamentable conditions which are bringing misery upon Ireland, and undoubtedly bringing discredit upon the whole of the British Empire. I cannot conceive that this Irish matter is more than indirectly connected with the Estimates before us, but I would not have liked to have allowed what has been said to go without an answer
I wish to return to subjects which principally concern the expenditure with which the country has to deal. The hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. A. Short), whose speech I greatly regret that I did not hear, summed up our policy in Mesopotamia by saying that it reeks of oil and smells of oil. I suppose the suggestion behind that argument, if argument it be, is that the reason the Government is in Mesopotamia is in order that the great capitalist interests by which they are gripped and controlled may be able to make fortunes. [ Cheers. ] Hon. Members cheer. If any body of sensible British politicians cares to cherish such an absurd and insane delusion, one can only offer to them the most profound sympathy on the standpoint from which they are forced to regard human affairs, and one can only offer the most sincere congratulations to all who have to oppose them in the constituencies of the country. I do not believe for a moment that in their heart of hearts the hon. Gentlemen who have cheered the suggestion believe that we are in Mesopotamia in order that private interests in this country may make fortunes out of oil.
It is essential for the running of the engine of the Coalition Government.
The hon. Gentleman is opposed to the Coalition Govern- ment. One of the first duties when one is engaged in opposition is to try to understand something of the motive forces which animate your opponent. I can assure the hon. Member that he is woefully wrong. We had taunts like these levelled at us when we brought forward the Anglo-Persian oil scheme. We were even insulted personally. I was, and so were other members of the Government. We were all going to make private gain out of the Anglo-Persian oil scheme. As a matter of fact, there has been no project put before the House which has resulted in a larger yield of profit to the State, and solely to the State, than that scheme. So far as the Mesopotamian oil product is concerned, it does not appear to me to have anything like the guarantees of success that the Anglo-Persian field had. The idea that this Government would have gone through all the difficulties they have gone through, faced all the expenditure, and burdened themselves with the military risks and exertions in order to secure some advantage in regard to some oilfields which have never yet been developed or even properly discovered by persons unnamed in this country, is a theory too absurd for acceptance by this House. The leader of the Labour party had a very peculiar policy about oil. It was a rather contradictory policy. First he said there must be no exclusive rights in oil. Whatever this country did in the policing and ordering of Mesopotamia, whatever great sums of money we paid, or sacrifices were made by our soldiers from India or from this country, however successful we were, at whatever pains and skill we reduced the people to happy, prosperous, contented, civilised obedience, then we were to share the resulting advantage equally and on absolutely even terms with the whole of the rest of the world. That is, of course, a hard saying, but there is a harder which came from the lips of my right hon. Friend. Having said that there must be no exclusive rights in oil, which is a doctrine very respectable in itself, he then says that the whole profits of the oil must go to the natives of the country—so that they are to have exclusive rights to the oil.
In making such a statement I am following, the noble example of the right hon. Gentleman himself, who said in his earlier speech that our action in Mesopotamia is for humanity, and not for Imperialistic ambition; but I never used such a term as exclusive rights in oil.
The Prime Minister told us that the sole idea was that the natives should benefit by the results of our efforts.
It is quite true that the work of the Government was undertaken from humanitarian motives, but I want to return to the proposition of the Leader of the Labour party, which is a very illuminating proposition from the point of view of those whom he represents, and which should be fully probed and exposed. The right hon. Gentleman says that you ought to work this oil entirely for the natives, and that all profits of the oil belong only to the natives. Why have not the natives derived some benefit from it during all these centuries? Here is the native quite unable to develop in any degree the resources of the country, yet the right hon. Gentleman says that outsiders are to come in, they are to risk their money, and give their labour, brains and science, and then are to be deprived of the slightest vestige of profit, the whole of which is to go to the native. As a matter of fact, it only shows the helplessness of Labour unless it is conjoined with science and with capital. Do not let us be afraid of arguing these points. I am quite ready to see this country divided from end to end on a clear examination of fundamental economic truths. It is no good going on from one flaccid sentiment to another. We have to get back to sound facts. While I agree that the oilfields, if oilfields there be—I lay great emphasis on the "if "—should certainly in their development innure to the general prosperity of the country, and be the means of giving it a modern and economic and scientific output, and of improving the health and well-being of the people; it is folly to suppose that anyone is going to develop those oilfields unless some share at least of the profit is to go to them for their enterprise and effort.
With his customary directness and downright force, the Leader of the Labour party made the usual attack on me for always engaging in adventures, and suggested that all the expense represented by this Estimate was due to the adventures in which I engaged. As a matter of fact, it is a great mistake to suppose that the War Office and the Army Council, or the Minister who for the time being is their mouthpiece in this House, have any liking for adventures. On the contrary, if you got to the bottom of the minds of the Army Council you would find that the thing in which they were interested was the welfare of the troops in Britain, the schools of education, the different branches of the military art, the improvement of our barracks, which are falling into disrepair, the development of the different branches of the ordinary Regular Army system. Those are the things which claim their enthusiasm and support in these times of peace, and those are the functions to which it is my duty to devote myself. I say quite clearly that I have been responsible for no adventures of any sort or kind, with one single exception, for which I take full responsibility—Russia. I take full responsibility for having done my very best, by every means that was open to me, small though they were, to procure the overthrow of this wicked, criminal, Bolshevik Government. I have never concealed it, and it has yet to be proved whether it was more an adventure to seek the overthrow of that Government or to seek to live side by side in the world with it. But, even on that subject, I was not responsible for starting the adventure. My right hon. Friend (Mr. Adamson) is always perfectly fair. Is he aware that when I went to the War Office and became a Member of the Cabinet when the Cabinet was reconstructed after the War, already our troops or our agents were in every part of Russia into which they have ever penetrated? Is he aware that promises of arms, of munitions, of supplies, had already been made by my predecessors, by a Cabinet of which I was not a Member—promises to provide supplies for Koltchak and Dennikin and the North Russian Government? It is quite true that, taking all that business at the stage at which it was, I threw my heart into it. My only regret is for the sake of Russia and for the sake of the whole world, that it was not possible to substitute for this Bolshevik tyranny some advanced and democratic government in Russia. As I said at the beginning, I inherited certain commitments which I did my best to carry through, and now I can say that page is definitely closed.
The right hon. Gentleman has one solution for all the difficulties of mankind, and that is peace—and anarchy—with the Soviet Government. It is astonishing how a sturdy British representative like him, who, in every other action of his life, belies and defies every principle on which the Soviet Government is constructed, who loathes its conscription, its forced labour, its denial of free speech, its labour armies, its tramping on trade unionism and the rights of the working class—it is astonishing to me that just because Russia is a long way off he can hold his hands up in an insane infatuation for this monstrous thing. Although my right hon. Friend is infatuated on this subject, I can tell him that he will now have an opportunity in the next two years of seeing what will be the reactions in Russia and throughout the world of the erection of this régime. I am quite con tent to wait in patience the terrible lessons which are going to be inculcated to mankind by the spectacle of the ruin of the Russian people and the continued disturbance and impoverishment of all the surrounding nations and the whole world. That is my humble opinion, which I express from profound conviction to the House. Allow me to come back for one moment. [ Interruption. ] I have not gone one step beyond—
I understood the right hon. Gentleman to be replying to a speech which I did not hear myself. That is my trouble. Apparently it took a very wide view.
I have strictly confined myself to those thoughts which naturally rose at the criticisms of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, who suggested that all, or much, of this policy was largely due to a policy of adventures to the Soviet Government, but I will admit that like other speakers in illustrating this theme I may have been drawn a slight distance. I will return to the point and say that I trust that the full explanation I have given will enable the House to extend their confidence to the Government on the Supplementary Estimate. I listened with great attention to the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) on the subject of how we have presented our Estimates. It is not through want of care or of desire to give the House information that the Estimate has not been presented in a form entirely satisfactory. We have given the fullest information in our power. We could not have the big thick bound volume of Army Estimates now. That would absolutely paralyse the activities of the War Office Accounting Branch when they are preparing another bulky volume, the Appropriation Account, which will be in the hands of Members at the end of March and another bulky volume, the Estimates for 1921–1922. We have followed precedent. It has never been customary to reprint the whole of the Estimates on these occasions, but only show the items in which the original Estimates have been increased. I have not only done that, but I have submitted a supplementary statement to the House, and I trust we may now be permitted to receive the approval of the Committee to the expenditure of these very large and lamentable sums of money.
In the course of the Debate most of the policy of the Government has been traversed, both in the Middle East and in the Near West. If I may do so for a few moments, because I admit I have not the knowledge to continue the Debate with the same breadth of outline that has distinguished it hitherto, I should like to make a few remarks with regard to the Estimate itself. I should like, on behalf of the new Members of this House who have not had the opportunity of studying many such Estimates, to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman that in future these Estimates should be made rather more intelligible to ordinary Members of this House. I thought at first that perhaps my difficulty was exceptional, but on consulting several other hon. Members outside I found that they had equal difficulty in understanding the Estimate, and if I vote against the Estimate to-night it will be because I am utterly unable to explain to my constituents why this large extra sum should be dragged from their already nearly empty pockets.
11.0 P.M.
If we turn to Head 1, "Maintenance of Standing Army," we find that a supplementary sum of something like £15,000,000 is required. I should very much like to know how much of that sum is required for the pay of temporary clerks at the War Office. At the present moment there are something like 4,500 officials at the War Office whose position there may be described as temporary. In 1913 the total number was 1,500; it is now 6,000. It is already two years since the Armistice, and it seems to me that most of the work which was thrown on the War Office by the War should have come to an end by this time. I have not the least doubt that these gentlemen can find and make work. The question is whether the multitude of forms which they send out and file, and pass on to another Department when they have been filled in, are absolutely necessary. If they are, of course there is nothing further to be said, but, if not, there, at any rate, is a small economy which might easily be effected. There is another point to which I should like to call attention. As everybody knows, there are in London five régiments of Guards, some of them consisting of three battalions and others of one. Each of those battalions is commanded by a lieutenant-colonel, and each of the régiments is commanded by a full colonel. Possibly there may be some reason for there being a colonel in command of the Grenadier and Coldstream Guards, each of which consists of three battalions, but surely there can be no reason for having a colonel and lieutenant-colonel in command of the single battalions of the Irish and Welsh Guards. In addition to commanding the régiment, the colonels are also supposed to command régimental districts, but surely one can hardly say the colonel commanding the Irish Guards is also in command of the Irish Régimental District, when, theoretically, the Irish Guards are supposed to recruit over the whole of Ireland. Furthermore, in the case of all those officers, they were before the War theoretically in command of Brigades of Territorials. Each brigade of Territorials in London has a brigadier. That is another case of duplication which, I think, under the circumstances, is quite unnecessary.
There is one item in the Estimates which I sincerely regret, although it is the only saving which has hitherto been effected, and that has been effected because the Territorials have not reached the numbers they were expected to reach by this time. Possibly, having been a life-long Territorial, I am taking an exaggerated view of the Territorial Army, but I consider, and I think the Government also consider, it is an integral part of the defensive force of the Kingdom. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!] I should like to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to one point where, I think, at any rate, the force might be made rather more attractive. The musketry course consists of 55 rounds fired every year. Of those, no more than 20 rounds have to be fired on one day, so that it entails three journeys to the range by every man, and in some cases an aggregate railway journey of between 180 and 200 miles. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will take notice of the suggestion that it ought to be at the discretion of the officer in command, where the range is inaccessible to the headquarters of the régiment, for allowance to be made for it, and the officer in command may, if he thinks fit, allow more than 20 rounds to be fired, and so save various journeys. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide, divide!"] In regard to another point—[ Interruption ]—I sincerely regret—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide, divide !"]—North West Persia. It might be impossible to withdraw these men wthout inflicting considerable hardship. Let me read one case—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide, divide!"]—I think I am right. I trust these suggestions of mine will be taken into account, and that these Supplementary and other Estimates will be presented in a clearer and more intelligent form so that they can be really understood.
rose — [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide, divide!"]
rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but the Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
I will take a very few moments to make what I consider a very serious statement. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up! " and laughter. ] Very well, I will try to speak up. If our forces are ever to be withdrawn from the Near and Middle East, and if danger in the Far East is ever to be averted, there must be a settlement one way or other of the Russian problem. I heard the statement that the Minister of War made with that inimitable charm which alone belongs to him—and even Labour men can appreciate a hard hitter who hits cleanly—and I am profoundly disappointed at what I consider a mistaken notion grafted on such great ability. I am speaking of the last twelve months of Eastern Europe and the Near East. What is the result? Can the Minister of War or anyone who really takes an interest in the subject doubt that the very attacks which have been made on the Soviet Government have strengthened the Soviet power?
Hear, hear, especially in the newspapers!
I disagree with the Soviet theory of government. I detest the Soviet government in practice; but 1 suggest that the policy followed up till now has been calculated to have and has resulted in the strengthening of the very power that the Minister of War wants destroyed. I do not need to theorise on this point. The facts are there. Azerbaijan, Armenia, the Kemalist Turks—all Russians now are Bolshevists. That is the fact that no amount of theory, no amount of fine phrasing, no amount of ability on the part of an orator can destroy. The facts are incontrovertible and beyond dispute. I ask the Minister for War to carefully consider whether, if he desires to break a certain power, it is not better to abandon altogether, not only in action but in speech, the method which has built that power and helped it to grow.
I have been in Russia myself. I have talked with men of all shades of thought in Russia, and I find Russians are exactly like Britons—they object to interference from the outside. Anyone who has visited Russia during the last two years will tell you what I am telling you. All the people I spoke to, of every section of society, were agreed that our policy with regard to Russia had been a mistake. It did not matter whether you spoke to people of the old régime, or to scientists, or to Menshevists, who hate Sovietism like poison. The same response came from them all—"Your policy is a mistake, and there will be no attempt to interfere with the government of this country so long as there is opposition from the outside." I suggest that the true policy is to forget for the moment that there are men like Lenin and Trotsky and to remember that in Russia there are 120 millions of decent people, as decent as we are, who believe that they are being badly treated by the Allied Governments, and who believe, rightly or wrongly, that the policy of the Allied Governments is responsible for their sufferings—to hold out the hand of friendship to these people and to forget for the moment the people who are evidently in power in the country. What should we in this country say if any other country tried to interfere with our internal government? Everybody in the Committee knows what would be the answer—"Our internal government is a matter for ourselves and not for outsiders."
If one needs to carry the argument further, here are the Czarist supporters who dream of a Russia that will be the Russia of the old times, who are opposed to the partition of Russia, and who believe that Poland really is part of Russia. They are opposed to you because you have cut up the nation of Russia. Then there are the Menshevists. Their leaders told me quite frankly that as far as they were concerned there would be no opposition to the Soviet régime so long as our attacks were maintained from the outside. And who were the men we backed? Go to Warsaw, and talk to the Poles, who hate the Soviet, about Denikin. They will tell you a tale of murder and pillage and outrage that is horrifying. They will tell you what Denikin was.
The hon. Member is going a little further than the perfectly sound argument with which he started, namely, that the unrest in the East is due to the influence of Russia. He must not develop that argument too far. We are dealing now with the present circumstances.
May I appeal to the Government that, if the men are to be withdrawn from Mesopotamia, there must be peace in Eastern Europe and the Near East? On the making of peace there depends largely our future. The situation in the East is becoming more difficult every day. You have now the Bolsheviks on the frontier of Persia, and India is within measurable distance, and is seething with discontent. Why not take up a policy that will allow us to take away our troops and at the same time make India safe. That is the danger which I see in the future. We can continue this policy and endanger India, or we can change our policy and make India safe. I know something of the Soviet. By our present policy I know that we are running a real danger of a great war to defend India, which every hon. Member in the House will be ready to defend if the necessity arises. We should adopt the sounder policy of saving India and giving the peoples of the earth a chance of living in peace and comfort with each other.
Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £38,750,000, be granted for the said Service."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 82; Noes, 186.
Division No. 407.] AYES. [11.20 p,m. Acland, Rt. Hon. F. D. Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Ormsby-Gore, Captain Hon. W. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Asqulth, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Hancock, John George Redmond, Captain William Archer Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Barrand, A. R. Hartshorn, Vernon Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Hayward, Major Evan Rose, Frank H. Billing, Noel Pemberton- Hinds, John Royce, William Stapleton Birchall, Major J. Dearman Hirst, G. H. Sexton, James Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Holmes, J. Stanley Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Irving, Dan Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Briant, Frank Johnstone, Joseph Sitch, Charles H. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Cairns, John Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Spencer, George A. Cape, Thomas Kenyon, Barnet Swan, J. E. Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley) Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole Lawson, John J. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) Lunn, William Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Davies, Major D. (Montgomery) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Mosley, Oswald Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Devlin, Joseph Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen) Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) Edwards. G. (Norfolk, South) Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) Entwistle, Major C. F. Myers, Thomas Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Finney, Samuel Newbould, Alfred Ernest Wintringham, T. Glanville, Harold James Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Grundy, T. W. O'Connor, Thomas P. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. G. Thome and Mr. Hogge.
NOES. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Coats, Sir Stuart Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Cobb, Sir Cyril Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Amery, Lieut-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Collins, Sir G. P. (Greenock) Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Armitage, Robert Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Atkey, A. R. Conway, Sir W. Martin Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Austin, Sir Herbert Courthope, Major George L. Hopkins, John W. W. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Davidson, J.C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G. Barker, Major Robert H. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Barlow, Sir Montague Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Barnett, Major R. W. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Jodrell, Neville Paul Barnston, Major Harry Dixon, Captain Herbert Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Lianelly) Barrie, Charles Coupar Donald, Thompson Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Doyle, N. Grattan Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring King, Captain Henry Douglas Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Edge, Captain William Lane-Fox, G. R. Bigland, Alfred Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Blake, Sir Francis Douglas Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Boles, Lieut.-Colonel D. F. Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Lindsay, William Arthur Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Lloyd, George Butler Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Farquharson, Major A. C. Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Breese, Major Charles E. Foreman, Henry Lonsdale, James Rolston Bridgeman, William Clive Forestier-Walker, L. Lort-Williams, J. Briggs, Harold Fraser, Major Sir Keith Lyle, C. E. Leonard Brown, Captain D. C. Frece, Sir Walter de Lynn, R. J. Bruton, Sir James Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A. Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Butcher, Sir John George Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Carr, W. Theodore Glyn, Major Ralph Molson, Major John Elsdale Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington) Goff, Sir R. Park Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Casey, T. W. Greenwood, William (Stockport) Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Cautley, Henry S. Gregory, Holman Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Greig, Colonel James William Morris, Richard Chadwick, Sir Robert Gritten, W. G. Howard Murray, John (Leeds, West) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Murray, Major William (Dumfries) Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill Hallwood, Augustine Nail, Major Joseph Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Neal, Arthur Churchman, Sir Arthur Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Clough, Robert Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Vickers, Douglas Oman, Sir Charles William C. Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Waddington, R. O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave O. Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Parker, James Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Scott, Sir Samuel (St. Marylebone) Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent) Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Seager, Sir William Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Perring, William George Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Watson, Captain John Bertrand Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Weston, Colonel John W. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Whitla, Sir William Pratt, John William Stanler, Captain Sir Beville Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Prescott, Major W. H. Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Pulley, Charles Thornton Strauss, Edward Anthony Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Rankin, Captain James S. Sturrock, J. Leng Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Reid, D. D. Sugden, W. H. Wise, Frederick Remer, J. R. Sutherland, Sir William Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Renwick, George Taylor, J. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Thomas-Stanford, Charles Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H (Norwich) Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Younger, Sir George Rodger, A. K. Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhili) Rogers, Sir Hallewell Thorpe, Captain John Henry TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Roundell, Colonel R. F. Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers Lord E. Talbot and Captain Guest.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Civil Services and Revenue Departments Supplementary Estimate, 1920–21
(CLASS 7.)
National Health Insurance Commission (Ireland)
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £68,540, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the salaries and expenses of the Insurance Commission (Ireland), and for sundry contributions and grants in respect of the cost of benefits and expenses of administration under the National Insurance (Health) Acts, 1911 to 1920 (including certain Grants-in-Aid)."
May I make an appeal to my right hon. Friend, the Patronage Secretary to the Treasury with regard to the Supplementary Estimate upon which we have now entered? I agree that, subject to what hon. Members from Ireland might desire to say upon this Vote, it is not one that would naturally lead to prolonged Debate. As far as we are concerned, we have no desire unduly to prolong the proceedings on it. With regard, however, to the Votes subsequent to it—to which, with your permission, Mr. Whitley, I may just make a very short reference—that is a matter running into £5,000,000 or £6,000,000, and I do feel that my right hon. Friend should be content with taking this first Vote upon which we have now entered, and should not press us to proceed with the other Votes, upon which we shall be compelled, so far as our physical abilities will allow, what we feel to be to do our duty in regard to discussing them. We really do not want to keep hon. Members here unnecessarily, nor do we want to do anything that would restrict the authority of Members of the House of Commons, nor to obstruct the business of the Government. That is not our desire at all. I would ask my right hon. Friend not to proceed further to-night.
I do not say that to fall in with the right hon. Gentleman's views is impossible, but at this period of the Session we must, if we do this, have some kind of understanding. The Labour party assure me that they do not want to discuss the Labour Vote to-night, but the right hon. Gentleman, I understand, does bar me making some arrangement as to a time limit if we put it off till to-morrow as to this Vote and the remaining Estimates?
It is very difficult to do this on the floor of the House, but on the subsequent Vote we would not ask for more than two hours' discussion. With £3,500,000 involved surely that is a very reasonable suggestion to make. So far as we are concerned that is the time we should be prepared to take. I leave it at that. I can do no more. With regard to the subsequent Votes, my hon. Friend and myself are very willing indeed to have a discussion in the usual way with my right hon. Friend, and see what we can arrange. All I can say on the floor of the House is the suggestion I have made with regard to the next Vote.
The Vote be-before the House is an Irish Vote. We have no desire to detain the House in discussing it, but the next Vote is an important Irish Vote with the large amount of unemployment in Ireland. We should certainly desire to take that at a more seasonable hour than the present. I can assure the Noble Lord we will not abuse any opportunity that is given us for discussing it.
I do not think the hon. Member is correct in saying unemployment is coming on this Vote. I do not think we can take it in addition to the other business which has been announced for to-morrow.
I cannot give any estimate at all.
Then we cannot come to an arrangement at all.
Cannot we take this as first order to-morrow? The Dyestuffs Bill is not likely to take very long.
Friday and Saturday are already allocated to that Bill.
I beg to move that the Vote be reduced by £26,440.
The Government are asking for £26,440 for expenses of medical certification in this Vote. The system in Ireland is quite different from that in England. In England you have medical benefit, and panel doctors are paid by the State for supplying medical benefits, and, of course, inside their duties comes the giving of certificates to their patients, and they are paid for that by the State. In Ireland there is no such thing as medical benefit, therefore no panel doctors are paid by the State for medical benefit. This Vote is to give them certain extra moneys for giving certificates to persons for the purpose of showing that they are suffering from disablement, in order that they shall get disablement benefit. Every person in Ireland has his own private doctor. He goes to his private doctor, who diagnoses his ailment and is paid a fee out of the patient's own pocket. Those certificates are all on a printed form, and all the doctor has to do is to sign his name. I do not understand why he should be paid anything for that signature. He is paid twice over for exactly the same thing, because the doctor says, "You are suffering from such and such an ailment and you are entitled to disablement benefit" and the patient has to pay him a private fee. Why should the doctors be paid anything further from the State? Not only are they being paid £69,000 already, but the Government now asks us to pay another £26,000 for that duty. I do not understand it. In Ireland there are 1,412 medical certifiers, which means one medical certifier for every 2,000 of the population. That is less than a panel doctor looks after in this country. Every one of these medical certifiers has his ordinary private patients. I do not want to say anything derogatory of the Irish medical profession, but I do not see why we should pay an additional £26,000 for duties which they do already for these private patients, and for which they are paid.
It is true that in Ireland the doctor is not paid in the same way that the panel doctor is paid in this country. He is entitled to be paid for his certificate.
Which is printed.
Yes, but my hon. Friend seems to think that everybody in Ireland suffers from the same disease. I can assure him that that is not so. The doctor has to fill up the certificate, stating the ailment from which the man or woman is suffering. He cannot give maternity benefits to a man. Without depreciating my own profession, I may say that a great deal more charitable work is done by the doctors than by the lawyers. It is not unreasonable, having regard to the present high cost of living, that the fees of the Irish doctors should be increased by 40 per cent. I hope my hon. Friend will not have to go to a doctor, but if he does go he will find that the fee has been increased by much more than 40 per cent. I hope the Committee will give the Irish doctors a 40 per cent. increase, inasmuch as the Treasury agrees to it.
I am about the last man to object to spend public money for health purposes, but I think the Committee is entitled to know how it is that this becomes a charge brought before the House in any estimate form. It is not long ago that some sort of a balance sheet was issued by the National Health Insurance, which is nothing but a large friendly society, with a national basis, its peculiarity being that its numbers have no hand or voice in its administration. Apart from that there seems to be an accumulation of something like £59,000,000 out of which this could be paid. Why cannot this business be done on the same lines as ordinary friendly society business and why cannot this money be paid out of these funds as it would be out of the funds of any other friendly society? There is a huge accumulation of money due to one simple fact. You are charging three or four times as much for the sick benefit as it is worth. It is not competent for me to draw a comparison between this and unemployed benefit which is grotesquely large for the contributions. In the case of the health insurance 3d. a week ought to cover and could well be made to cover all the outlay, including administration—because that is what it is done for. In consequence of this large contribution—something like 8d. or 9d. a week for adult males—there has been a huge accumulation to the extent of nearly £60,000,000. Surely there is enough in that fund to make the extra payments which admittedly ought to be made. It seems to be a wanton thing to come to Parliament to ask for more public money to bolster up an exceedingly bad scheme and keep accumulating money that is not spent and ought to be spent for purposes of this kind.
I would like to ask the Attorney-General for Ireland a question as to the expenditure of this money. Following the railway trouble in Ireland, the Government have threatened to stop the payment of Old Age pensions because they say they cannot guarantee the safety of the mails I am using this as the basis of my question in reference to a somewhat similar principle in this case. If they cannot pay Old Age pensions, they cannot pay benefits under the National Health Insurance Act. Old Age pensions are paid regularly every week, and once the thing is settled very little bureaucracy of the organisation comes into it, but the payment of maternity benefit, health insurance, sanatorium benefit, tuberculosis benefit, and things of that sort require much more correspondence, supervision and organisation. Therefore, if the Government threat is genuine, and not simply one more attempt to bulldose, frighten and terrorise the Irish people, if they intend to stop Old Age pensions in Ireland, how are they to pay the benefits under the National Health Insurance? That is a question we are entitled to have answered before we vote this money. What is at the back of the Government's mind in this economic threat against the poorest and most aged of the people? Let us have their cards on the table. We have had all sorts of threats. Do they intend to stop maternity and sanatorium benefits on top of the other insults and infamies which they have piled on that country?
In discussing Supplementary Estimates we ought always to be careful to compare them with the original Estimates. If hon. Members will take the trouble to go to the Vote Office and get the original Estimates, they will find that in every one of the proposed Estimates there is considerable miscalculation. The first item in these Supplementary Estimates deals with medical and sanatorium benefits. When the original Estimates were introduced in February of this year they showed under that heading a decrease of £350. On Item F III, which deals with sickness, disablement and maternity benefits, they showed a decrease of £4,200; and on Item F IV, expenses of administration, societies and committees, they showed a decrease of £850.
The hon. Member, who seldom overlooks anything, has overlooked the fact that our original Estimate was brought in in February, and that these increases are all statutory increases under the Act of the present year, which was not passed until July. That is the explanation.
I think the learned Attorney-General will discover that I have not overlooked some of those points, and that he has forgotten a great deal since February, and that a large number of these increases are not due to statutory increases at all. Let me make my points in my own way. On Item G, which is a special grant, in the original Estimate there was an increase of only £2,500, whereas now the additional sum required is £26,440. Take the Item F IV, expenses of administration. The original Estimate was £32,200. The revised Estimate is 33⅓ per cent. higher.
One would like to know how this happened. I frequently get letters from Ireland which incline me to think that the administration, particularly in the county areas is not good. When we are on the eve of putting through a Bill to give the Irish people control of these matters we want to know where and how this money is being expended. Ireland is going to be divided under the Home Rule Bill, and presumably we shall have the administration of one area and an Irish Parliament when it is set up in Ulster of another, We want to know how this extra sum is being allocated and to be assured that the administration is more competent and efficient than it has been in certain parts of Ireland. On the item about medical and sanatorium benefits, I should like to have some information as to what is being done in sanatorium benefit in Ireland with regard to the discharged ex-service man. We were met here over and over again by the fact that the National Health Insurance authorities were not able to provide adequate accommodation for these men because of the pressure of the consumptive people themselves. Disabled men in Ireland have not the advantage of the regular organisation in this country. In Cork the local war pensions committee has been dispersed and disabled men's problem is entirely controlled by a regional officer. Who is looking after these suffering ex-service men who ought to receive this sanatorium benefit? I notice he has got £11,600 more for this purpose. I should like to hear from him before I agree to this sum being given to an Irish administration which will not be ours after to-morrow, or after next week. I want to know that the right of the ex-service man to sanatorium benefit is preserved and that the addition of this £11,600 means an improved position for them in Ireland.
The right hon. Gentleman made rather merry with my Amendment, but I can assure him I did not put it down in an obstructive spirit or a spirit of farce, but because I wanted to save the State £26,000. I ought to have mentioned that the right hon. Gentleman has really increased the fee of these doctors from £50 on the average a year to £70, merely for signing their names to a printed form which is sent to them free.
The hon. Member will excuse me, but that is not the case. AS the right hon. Gentleman said, every- one in Ireland does not suffer from the same disease, and it is only the doctor who can diagnose the disease. A lawyer may be able to diagnose a legal case, but it takes a trained doctor to diagnose a disease, and in the very precarious condition of affairs in Ireland he deserves as much as is given here, or a great deal more.
That is not my point. I quite agree the doctor has to diagnose the disease, but he is paid for that out of the private pocket of his patient. [HON. MEMBERS: " No! "] He is, because there is no medical benefit in Ireland. The whole of this Vote is expenses for medical certification, which simply means signing one's name to a printed form and putting in the nature of the disease. The doctor is paid for diagnosing the disease by the patient out of his own private pocket.
No.
Does the right hon. Gentleman tell me that this Vote covers the whole fee that is paid for diagnosing the disease and the advice of the doctor? If he does, I will sit down immediately; but he cannot possibly say that. In Ireland a patient goes to a doctor, who may say, " You are suffering from a disease which renders you entitled to disablement benefit," and he signs a form, and is paid a private fee out of the patient's own pocket.
No. The expression " Medical Benefit" in Ireland means that the doctor gets nothing.
The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my question. Is it the fact in Ireland that when an ordinary person goes to a doctor and asks for a diagnosis, because he feels unwell, and the doctor signs a certificate that he is entitled to disablement benefit, that person has to pay out of his private pocket, or is the whole cost covered by the payment of the State?
12 M.
I took a great interest in the application of this Insurance Act to Ireland, and I hope I shall be able to clear up the point raised by the hon. Gentleman. Of course, there are no medical benefits in Ireland. I think that was a great mistake, but I do not propose to go into that. If medical benefit had been applied to Ireland, the cost to the British Exchequer would have been very considerably greater than it is now. I do not complain of the speech of the hon. Gentleman, though I do not think he has a very good case from the point of view of the British taxpayer. Does the hon. Member contend that it would be beneficial to the British taxpayer if every insured person in Ireland who went to a doctor, paid him and got a certificate, came along and claimed his insurance benefit? When these persons go from their own doctor, they are sent to an official doctor to safeguard the Treasury and, of course, the insurance society, and justice is done to the British taxpayer and also the insurance society. If the principle laid down by the hon. Gentleman were adopted, this fund would be absolutely bankrupt. I think this is the first time in my life that I have agreed with the right hon. Gentleman, the Attorney-General for Ireland. When I see a Member of the Government of Ireland in a merry mood, as the right hon. Gentleman was to-night, it is a circumstance so abnormal that I congratulate him with all my heart. The right hon. Gentleman is quite right. I do not believe that in any part of the world there is a more public-spirited and unselfish body of men than the doctors in Ireland. I may mention that some of our most important hospitals have had to be closed for want of finance. One hospital that dealt with disabled soldiers has had to close down, and so has a tuberculosis hospital. These doctors do great work for the poor gratis. Why, the right hon. Gentleman compared them with the lawyers, to the disadvantage of the lawyers. I never knew a lawyer who ever did anything for nothing. I know in the City of Belfast a distinguished doctor who, in order to be able to attend to his private work, used to go into the hospital from 6 to 9 o'clock, and give his time and great capacity gratis in the interests of these afflicted members of humanity. Who ever heard of a lawyer giving bad advice for nothing?
I have often, done it.
I believe the right hon. Gentleman is far too modest. I do not believe either in politics or in law he has ever given bad advice. That is why he is a Leader of the Opposition, and I wish it were larger than it is. I am glad to be able to join in the tribute which has been paid to the services of the doctors in Ireland.
I wish to express my thanks to the hon. Member who has just sat down. He has put the case very clearly. I think the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Locker-Lampson) is labouring under the idea that a medical man sits down before a pile of papers, and simply has to sign them, or perhaps uses a rubber stamp instead. I beg to inform the Committee that the physical examination before each certificate is filled up is of the most minute and careful description. Far from being a perfunctory act, the General Medical Council have had almost every session for several years a medical man brought before them for signing a certificate without examining the patient, and many of these men have been absolutely removed from the register and pauperised for life. It is the thing that the granting of these certificates is associated with an act of responsibility of which very few perhaps have any conception, and the paltry fee that is given in each case is a thing I would rather not speak about for the credit and honour of my profession.
There are very rare occasions when hon. Members from Ireland agree with each other, and that is when the obejct is that of extracting money from the British Government. That may be a joy, but I doubt whether it is worth the money set down here. There is, however, a direct conflict of thinking as to the facts of the case. The hon. Gentleman who moved the Motion said that in these cases no diagnosis was involved before giving the certificate.
What I said was that the diagnosis was paid for by the patient out of his private means.
Well, some hon. Members put forward the one view, whilst on the other hand it was stated that the diagnosis was made for the purpose of the certificate. The Committee would be very much indebted to the Attorney-General if he would say which of these views is the correct one; for upon the facts the whole case depends.
The hon. And gallant Gentleman has made the usual statement about the unity of Irishmen when asking for money from the British Exchequer, and I feel it my duty to make the usual reply, and it is that it is not the British taxpayer from whom we are asking the money, rather it is out of the common fund to which we Irish taxpayers contribute more than our proper proportion. Probably the hon. and gallant Gentleman has seen the revenue returns and seen the excess of revenue from Ireland this year over the expenditure in that country is about £30,000,000. Apart altogether from the various impartial Committees that have looked into the matter, everyone at the present time admits that instead of Ireland receiving its undue proportion from the British Exchequer, an enormous and extraordinary proportion is extorted from Ireland itself. Concerning F II, medical and sanatorium benefit, questions have been asked. We who live in Ireland know that the case of the ex-service man there is by no means a pleasant one. We have, both sides of the Irish parties, who have seen service, have done our best for the ex-service men. At the same time there is no getting away from the fact that simply because the ex-service man happens to be an Irishman resident in Ireland he does not receive the same attention as does the ex-service man in this country. There have been many Committees set up and many reforms brought about in pensions and in sanatorium benefits and grants-in-aid for ex-service men, but what I have always found is this, that when these increases came to be applied there was always an obstacle placed in the path of the Irish ex-service man. It is perfectly true—I can vouch for it myself, coming from the South of Ireland—what the hon. Member for East Edinburgh has said about the state of the ex-service men. in the city of Cork, and after all, if any ex-service man should be properly treated at the present time, it is the ex-service man in the city of Cork. However, what I want to know is this, and I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General for Ireland if he will explain how far the ex-service men in Ireland are to benefit by the extra grant. Unfortunately, it does not seem to me that this grant is large enough to benefit the ex-service man very much.
If it were within my power, which it is not, to move in this matter, I would prefer to move a Motion to increase this sum rather than reduce it. The medical and sanatorium benefits which are extended to the ex-service man in Ireland at the present time, I fear, are nothing in proportion to what they should be, and therefore I think before this Vote is passed, we Irish Members, and especially the ex-service Irish Members, have a right to know in what respect the Irish ex-service men are going to benefit through this Vote. Also as regards F III, Sickness, Disablement, and Maternity Benefits. I would like to supplement what my hon. Friend the Member for the Falls Division has said concerning the closing down of great hospitals in Ireland. It is a crying scandal in the city of Dublin the way the great voluntary hospitals have had practically to close down at the present time. Several of the wards have had to close down and they have been unable to cope with the necessities of the time. Everyone is aware that the cost of maintaining these institutions, like the cost of everything else, has increased.
We cannot discuss in this Vote the question of the closing of hospitals. This Vote, F III, deals with sickness, disablement, and maternity benefits under the National Health Insurance Act.
I was only wanting to know whether this Vote was going to be applied in any way to these hospitals. Perhaps the Attorney-General might be able to tell us?
It would not be possible to discuss that matter.
Well, on F IV (Expenses of Administration, Grants-in-Aid), I might be able to question him upon that subject. I certainly think that the amount, if anything, is too small. This is my general complaint about the whole of this Supplementary Estimate. I feel sure that the hon. Member who moved this Amendment moved it in all good faith, but, if he does not mind my saying so, we, in Ireland, know a little more about British legislation for our own country than he does. We take some part in that legislation and we live in the country in which the legislation is supposed to be administered, and I did not come into the House to raise a question on an Irish Supplementary Estimate without having some slight knowledge as to the application and the form of the law in Ireland. I feel sure that the hon. Member will not press his Amendment, but I do ask the right hon. Gentleman, the Attorney-General for Ireland, to explain to us his proposal and to give a particularly full explanation with regard to the Irish ex-service man. I am pestered night, noon and morning with letters from ex-service men in Ireland. I am the only Nationalist representative returned from the whole of the South of Ireland; the only other representative who comes to this House is the hon. Member for Rath-mines (Sir M. Dockrell), and I do not know exactly to what political persuasion he belongs. At any rate, I have the great misfortune to be the only Irish Nationalist representative from Munster, Leinster and Connaught, and, at the same time I happen to be the only Irish ex-service Member from those three provinces. Therefore, I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman, the Attorney-General for Ireland, can understand how voluminous my correspondence is from Irish ex-service men in those three provinces. There were some Irishmen from those three provinces in the Army during the War, and those men are now in Ireland. A great many of them are disabled and a great many of them require medical and sanatorium benefit. Also, an undue proportion of them are out of employment. Therefore, the Attorney-General can understand my own individual interest in the matter, and I would press him, if possible, to go like a man to the Treasury and not diminish, but increase the amount of the grant applicable to this class of man.
I should like to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment, but I suppose that the Attorney-General will reply to the points raised by the hon. Members behind me. I should like him, in his reply, really to inform the Committee whether it is or is not a fact that when a person in Ireland goes to a doctor and is diagnosed and receives a certificate from the same doctor he has to pay a private fee?
I think that instead of offering to withdraw his Amendment the hon. Member ought to have stuck to his guns. A good deal of confusion has been caused with reference to this certificate. He told us patients go to a doctor to find out what is wrong with them. They do nothing of the sort. They go to the doctor to get cured. It does not give any great pleasure to a patient to be told what he is suffering from unless he is cured. Sometimes the doctor helps the man to get better without giving a diagnosis at all and without himself knowing what is wrong with him. In such a case the doctor has got to say nothing and to look wise. With a written certificate it is a different matter altogether. There has to be a very careful diagnosis, and very often research before the doctor can put on the paper the proper name of the disease. The certificate becomes a State document. Public action is founded upon it, and public money is paid out upon it, and it may, at any time, be questioned in a Court of Law. Apart from any information he may have given to the patient and the pay he receives for any assistance he may have given, this is a separate service altogether. Writing out these certificates is not a mere matter of form. It is a serious responsibility It is a public document and the public ought to be expected to pay. Lawyers charge a fee whenever they sign their names, even though they do not look into the body of the document. I was glad to observe the eulogy which my right hon. Friend (Mr. Denis Henry) paid to the medical profession as compared with the profession which he adorns, but I am sure if the truth were known that the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) and the right hon Gentleman opposite have both got a good deal of legal advice for nothing.
Let us get on.
Getting on does not worry me. I have been used to all-night sittings all my life. I think there has been a good deal of confusion about this medical certificate, and I hope I have helped to clear it up.
I really must ask the learned Attorney-General for Ireland whether he proposes to reply to the few words I addressed to him. If my hon. and gallant Friend below the Gangway (Sir Newton Moore) wishes to go home we are quite prepared to let him go. "We will discuss the estimates, and I will look after the financial interests of his constituents. It does not help a Vote through if Ministers do not reply. I made as courteous a speech as I could in view of the strong feelings I hold on this subject, and I think it is only right before we vote this considerable sum of money, that we should be told how the Government propose to administer health insurance and sanatorium insurance if they will be unable to administer old age pensions. How are they going to pay out the money under this Vote, and how can. they justify asking the House of Commons for this money in view of the very stringent financial situation? If I am wrong, surely the right hon. Gentleman can tell me so. I do not think he has ever had to complain of any discourtesy on my part towards him, but if he does not reply I think I shall have a right to complain of apparent discourtesy on his part, as I am trying to clear up a point of substance.
It would be far better if the right hon. Gentleman would clear up this point. If the House of Commons were not so unreasonable, I would clear it up myself, although I am, not a law officer of the Crown. It is the business of the Government to get through their business as quickly as possible, and the right hon. Gentleman should give us a prompt, short, lucid, explanatory and informative reply on this point. An additional reason why I want to pass on is that I did not come here for the purpose of this subject at all. I thought there would be no discussion on it, and it is another matter entirely in which I am interested. Finally, the great reason that touches my heart is that my hon. and gallant Friend below me (Sir N. Moore) is tired and wants to go home to bed, and I feel that I must make an appeal on his behalf.
I do not think we can go on with this discursive discussion.
I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to give us some reply as to whether the item F2 applies to ex-Service men in Ireland?
I should like to ask the Attorney-General if he intends to reply to us? If he does not, I will move at once to report Progress. My hon. and gallant Friend who has just sat down put a very definite question for information which I myself raised. I raised two very definite points, and I will repeat them for the benefit of my right hon. Friend. The first was that the cost of administration has increased by one-third, and we asked what was the allocation of that increased cost of administration? The second point was whether the increased grant towards sanatorium benefit in any way affected the large number of discharged ex-Service men in Ireland suffering from consumption? If my right hon. Friend will not give us a reply to those two questions after I have sat down, I certainly will move to report progress.
I have already explained to my hon. Friend that three of the Votes are fixed by the Insurance Act, and are applicable to every person who receives benefits. As regards the fourth, hon. Members representing the medical profession and hon. Members on the other side of the Committee have supported the Government on the subject, and I have really nothing to add to what I have said.
That really is not the point. I am very sorry to keep the Committee, but, as hon. Members know, it would be possible, if one meant to delay the Committee, to raise quite a number of other points, and yet to keep within the rules of order. It may be quite true that the first three are statutory increases. That does not alter the fact that under the statutory increase towards sanatorium benefit there must be money which is applicable to discharged men. The simple question we are asking my right hon. Friend is this—He has his advisors sitting there. I see that the more responsible Ministers of the Crown are hiding behind the Chair instead of facing the responsibilities in regard to this Estimate. I see on the Treasury Bench an ex-Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Shortt), near the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Edmund Talbot); he might know something about it. I see the Leader of the House, who, with his usual modesty, is keeping out of sight. He ought to face a question of this kind, which is perfectly definite, and until we get a reply we must divide on these two questions. We will divide in that sub- head unless my right hon. Friend indicates what is being done to meet the situation. I will repeat, in two sentences, what the situation is. There was provided in this country and in Ireland accommodation for the man who had suffered from consumption in the Army. No man ought to come out of the Army suffering from consumption, and no man should ever have been taken into the Army when there was any likelihood of consumption. We owe these men a double debt In order to keep myself strictly an order, so that we may have a division if we do not get an adequate reply, I beg to move " In F. 2 to reduce the vote by £11,600."
We have a reduction already before the Committee.
But that is going to be withdrawn.
Whether it is withdrawn or not, I cannot take any further Amendment for reduction.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Original Question again proposed.
I beg to move that the Vote be reduced by £100.
I desire to support this Motion. I think it is really treating the Committee with very scant courtesy. It is lamentable that when a Minister is asked such a question he cannot go to some minor official in the Gallery and get the necessary information. I do think it is really treating the matter with pure lack of consideration, and I think, if we do not get a satisfactory reply, that we ought to have the support of every ex-Service man in this House. After all, because an ex-Service man happens to be an Irishman, is that any reason why he should not have, at any rate, the same rights and the same privileges as are enjoyed in this country? We are left in the dark to-night upon this question. The least we are entitled to know is whether this extra amount of money for ordinary and sanatorium benefit boycotts the Irish ex-Service man. Therefore, I do ask the Attorney-General to give us some inkling of where the Irish ex-Service man stands. I feel con- fident that hon. Members from Ulster will not be able to refrain from going into the Lobby with us in a division on this question, and to demand of the Government that they should treat Ireland—in this case, united Ireland—with some respect as regards the man who voluntarily went into the Army, and that he should not suffer in consequence. We are now told that the Government of the day know absolutely nothing.
I want to put another question to the right hon. Gentleman. This is a vote the total of which comes to £510,520, and the main Vote has not been brought forward on Supply Day and discussion. The Supplementary Vote, which is a substantial sum, is brought forward at a late hour when we have already voted nearly £40,000,000 for the Army. We are, of course, limited in our discussion. We cannot attack or expatiate on the main policy of National Health Insurance in Ireland, but on this Supplementary Estimate—the expenditure of the extra money in itself is a substantial sum—we are not favoured with a reply to questions of substance which we have put to the right hon. Gentleman, the Attorney-General for Ireland. Several Members of the Government have had plenty of time to get this information and it is not treating the Committee properly. It is making the examination of these Estimates farcical. The country is really disturbed about the financial condition of affairs. Members of the Government may laugh it aside with remarks about " jazz bands " and so on, but any of us who have gone to the country can assure the Government that all classes of society are really disturbed. People without any particular party feeling are disturbed by the large amount of taxation. It has been said again and again by economists of note that we must tackle details and examine details one by one. But when we ask questions we do not get the replies we expect. My particular question was as to the difficulties of administering this complicated Act in Ireland, and whether it will be possible for the Government, under the present conditions to get the railways started. I hope they have got over that difficulty; it is said that they have. My question is answered if that is so, but my question was whether they could spend this money efficiently under the difficulties that have arisen in Ireland, and not one word in reply have I had. I do not think my right hon. Friend can complain of the voting of money in this House for his country, and I have a real grievance. I hope that this Motion for the reduction will be supported by every hon. Member here who looks upon the right of this House to examine estimates with jealousy. It is right that we should look upon it with jealousy; it is the most important right we possess, and I ask for that support, quite apart from any party feeling or anything else. It is time that the Government were taught a lesson. The Government treat the whole subject of estimates with levity. We have to-day had an extraordinary speech from the Minister for War on another supplementary estimate for £40,000,000. This is a Vote for £500,000, and we have been met with no reply at all. I think our complaint is quite justified.
The right hon. Gentleman still refuses to answer one or two very difficult questions. When a Minister of the Crown has to adopt this attitude on a discussion of these supplementary estimates it reduces the whole proceedings not to a farce but to a tragedy. It is really a public scandal. I asked a question myself, I think a perfectly proper question, in order to obtain information to enable me to form my own judgment. What is the use of putting down these estimates if we cannot get the necessary information to enable us to form our judgment. Still, the right hon.
Gentleman will not reply, and it means that Votes will be pushed through without the House being properly informed.
I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
Why does the right hon. Gentleman refuse to answer these questions, because it is important that we should know? Is it because he thinks we are simply obstructing. It is not the truth. I did not move my first Amendment in the least for the purpose of obstruction but to get information. The right hon. Gentleman would not even answer my question. Does he refuse to answer these questions merely because he thinks a process of obstruction is going on, or because he does not have some gentleman under the gallery who can answer questions for him. It is important that we should know if he has anyone who can give the information. If not we ought to report Progress until we can get the information. After all, the Government come down here and ask us for this money. It is a solemn masquerade, when they do not explain what it is for, and do not answer a single question. It is a solemn pantomime to remain here when we cannot get information. Therefore I beg leave to move that the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 19; Noes, 94.
Division No. 408.] AYES. [12-45 a.m. Barker, Major Robert H. Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) Thorne, G. B. (Wolverhampton, E.) Billing, Noel Pemberton- Mosley, Oswald Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Ormsby-Gore, Captain Hon. W. Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Rendall, Athelstan TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Entwistle, Major C F. Rose, Frank H. Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson and Captain Redmond. Hayward, Major Evan Sitch, Charles H. Hogge, James Myles Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Edge, Captain William Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Casey, T. W. Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Armitage, Robert Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Austin, Sir Herbert Churchman, Sir Arthur Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Coats, Sir Stuart Fraser, Major Sir Keith Balfour, George (Hampstead) Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Barlow, Sir Montague Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Barnston, Major Harry Courthope, Major George L. Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Betterton, Henry B. Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Boles, Lieut.-Colonel D. F. Davidson, J. C. C.(Hemel Hempstead) Glyn, Major Ralph Bridgeman, William Clive Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Goff, Sir R. Park Brown, Captain D. C. Dixon, Captain Herbert Greenwood, William (Stockport). Bruton, Sir James Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Hallwood, Augustine Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Sutherland, Sir William Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Thorpe, Captain John Henry Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Parker, James Vickers, Douglas Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor King, Captain Henry Douglas Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Lane-Fox, G. R. Pickering, Lieut.-Colonel Emil W. Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Whitla, Sir William Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Pratt, John William Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Lindsay, William Arthur Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Lort-Williams, J. Renter, J. R. Wills, Lieut-Colonel Sir Gilbert Loseby, Captain C. E. Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Lynn, R. J. Rodger, A. K. Wise, Frederick M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Wolmer, Viscount Molson, Major John Elsdale Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Murray, Major William (Dumfries) Stanier, Captain Sir Beville Lord Edmund Talbot and Captain Guest. Nall, Major Joseph Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Neal, Arthur
Question again proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £68,440, be granted for the said Service."
I submit to you, Sir, that this refusal of the Minister of the Crown to answer legitimate questions addressed to him by Members of this House is a breach of the Constitutional practice of the House of Commons. It has always been the custom before voting something for the Services of the Crown that Members who have been duly elected by their constituencies have a right to air any grievances that they may have, and consequently also to get an answer from the Crown about those grievances; and the refusal of the Irish Attorney-General, the Minister in charge, I submit, is a breach of the Constitutional practice of the House. The question that was addressed to him was a very simple question.
That speech has been made several times and I cannot allow repetition. A Division has been taken on the Motion to report Progress, and if hon. Members want to resume discussion they must resume discussion on the Supplementary Estimates. We cannot go back on the discussion that we have been having before the Division.
On a point of Order. Does your ruling mean that we cannot still ask the Attorney-General for information which he is not in a position to give.
My ruling is quite clear. I cannot allow to continue tedious repetition of the same subject.
May I ask the Attorney-General the question which has been addressed to him, and that is with, regard to F2 of these Supplementary Estimates. Does this sum include the ex-service men who have been discharged from the Army suffering from tuberculosis? I will not press the question if the right hon. Gentleman does not know. If he does not know, my hon. and learned Friend might ask the officials under the gallery, and if he does know perhaps he will tell us.
I have already tried according to the best of my feeble intelligence to say that this is a statutory vote. It is an estimate by the Treasury to the Irish Insurance Commission for the purpose of these particular things and the result of moving to reduce the vote would be to reduce the sum available to the Irish Insurance Commission for all sorts of people, including ex-service men.
On that point. I do not want to worry my right hon. Friend unduly. I say quite frankly that I do not suppose there is any more popular member of the Government than my hon. Friend. On every occasion he always treats us with courtesy. While he says—and he has referred to this before as well as to repeating our questions while he says this is a statutory vote it does not follow from that that he ought not to be in a position to know how many patients there are in Ireland who are at the present moment receiving sanatoria benefit. Let me ask him this new question. How many men in Ireland today are in receipt of sanatoria benefit; how many places are there in any sanatorium, infirmaries or hospitals in Ireland, and how many of these places are available for the ex-service men discharged for consumption. This is per- fectly clear to which we are entitled to an answer.
I am quite certain that the last thing my right hon. Friend would think of would be to be discourteous to the House or to refuse to impart whatever information he has in relation to these matters under discussion. But I take it that the reason the right hon. Gentleman cannot make the statement which he has been invited to make several times is because of the officials who can give this information. I regard that as treating the House of Commons with contempt. Whenever there is any discussion bearing upon departmental matters, either financial or administrative, it is the custom for the gallery over there to be filled by the officials who naturally must be there to advise the Minister responsible and to give him such information as he may be invited himself to tender here to the House of Commons. Why are the officials in connection with this Health Insurance not here? I know myself. It is not because these officials would not be prepared to give the information, because I do not believe there is a body of men who discharge their duties more efficiently or would be prepared—[ Interruption ]— that is the only intelligent thing I should expect the hon. Gentleman to do at this hour of the morning. It makes no difference whether he is behind the Bar, before the Bar, or at the Bar. I am quite sure enthusiasm is in the latter place. The only thing I object to always is some of these gentlemen coming in here from the Bar interrupting people who had not had the pleasure of enjoying it. There are no more capable officials than those who are administering the Insurance Act. Why are they not here? I desire to point out to the House that the reason they are not here is this, that the present Government—I mean the Irish Government— have such a complete contempt for Irish opinion as it is represented in this House that they do not think it worth their while to bring these officials over here, that they do not even inform these officials that these Estimates are to be discussed in the House of Commons, and they say, when the House of Commons comes to discuss an Estimate dealing with a particular branch of the public service in Ireland, give them the same answer that the Chief Secretary gives when the House is talking about reprisals. Don't give them any answer at all; avoid the question. I understand, when I looked in a moment ago—out from the Bar—that one English Member who has taken a most keen and intelligent interest in all these questions, not only financial and administrative in Ireland—was seeking information, and he was compelled to move to report progress owing to the ignorance of the Minister who is in charge. I do not blame the Minister who cannot carry all these facts in his mind, but who ought to have his officials here. What I complain about is not that he does not know or that he does not want to know what he does know, but the contempt they have for Irish opinion. English opinion wants to be enlightened, as English opinion ought to be enlightened, upon these questions of finance, of squandering maniacs and anti-squandering maniacs because the whole country is in a perfect saturnalia of indecision as to who is right and who is wrong. Look at the amount of business that has to be done. All this work could have been facilitated by five sentences from the right hon. Gentlemen imparting the information. It could have let my hon. Friend, the former Prime Minister of West Australia, go home an hour and a half ago. When he was Prime Minister of West Australia he once was chairman at a Home Rule meeting of mine. That was in the full vigour of his youth.
We must not get to Australia. We have got wide enough.
I am trying to get nearer home, and the nearer I come to the domestic hearth the less I hear of the working of the household. I thought before I got to Australia I might get by a circuitous route to the point I wish to discuss. I hope it is not too late to make an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to be frank—I mean officially frank—for once in his life. We are not dealing with reprisals or with murder, but with consumptive ex-soldiers, and therefore you can afford to be frank on the matter. If the right hon. Gentleman has not got information he ought to get up and say so, and admit he has not the persons here who can give him the information. Let him say that that is not the fault of the officials that they are not in the gallery of prescience over there because they were not brought over here because of the contempt for Irish opinion.
The matter might be cleared up if the right hon. Gentleman who is representing the Government made a clean breast of the actual facts. They are these. Directly the Government suspend the Eleven o'clock Rule they consider that the majority of the Opposition will go home to bed, and there is no occasion to put themselves in possession of any facts that any Member of the House may desire to be acquainted with. I consider that is an insult to the House of Commons.
The hon. Gentleman is making a speech which is more in order on a Motion to report progress which we have dealt with. We have
decided to go on discussing these Estimates, and if the hon. Gentleman wishes to go on he must confine himself to them.
Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £68,440, be granted for the said Service."
Division No. 409.] AYES. [1.6 a.m. Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Rendall, Athelstan Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) Davison, J. E. (Smethwlck) Rose, Frank H. Hogge, James Myles Sitch, Charles H. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Major Entwistle and Major Hayward. Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Redmond, Captain William Archer Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Pickering, Lieut.-Colonel Emil W. Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Glyn, Major Ralph Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Armitage, Robert Goff, Sir R. Park Pratt, John William Austin, Sir Herbert Greenwood, William (Stockport) Pulley, Charles Thornton Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Hailwood, Augustine Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Remer, J. R. Barlow, Sir Montague Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Barnston, Major Harry Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Rodger, A. K. Betterton, Henry B. Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Boles, Lieut.-Colonel D. F. Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Bridgeman, William Clive Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Brown, Captain D. C. King, Captain Henry Douglas Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Bruton, Sir James Lane-Fox, G. R. Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Stanier, Captain Sir Bevllle Casey, T. W. Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Lindsay, William Arthur Sutherland, Sir William Churchman, Sir Arthur Lort-Williams, J. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Coats, Sir Stuart Loseby, Captain C. E. Thorpe, Captain John Henry Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Lynn, R. J. Vickers, Douglas Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Courthope, Major George L. Molson, Major John Elsdale Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Davidson, J. C. C.(Hemel Hempstead) Mosley, Oswald Whitla, Sir William Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Dixon, Captain Herbert Murray, Major William (Dumfries) Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Nail, Major Joseph Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Edge, Captain William Neal, Arthur Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir M. (Bethnal Gn.) Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Wise, Frederick Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Wolmer, Viscount Fraser, Major Sir Keith Ormsby-Gore, Captain Hon. W. Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Parker, James Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Captain Guest and Lord Edmund Talbot.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 13; Noes, 98.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Ministry of Labour
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £3,500,000 be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending
I listened to a dissertation for fifteen minutes on the very point I touched most lightly on. If Irish Members are permitted to dissertate for fifteen minutes on this question, English Members should be allowed to say something. I submit that you were not in order in ruling me out of order—
on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Labour and Subordinate Departments, including the Contribution to the Unemployment Insurance Fund, and Repayments to Associations pursuant to Sections 85 and 106 of the National Insurance Act, 1911, and Sections 5 and 17 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920; Out-of-Work Donation and Expenditure in connection with the training of Demoblised Officers and of Non-Commissioned Officers and Men, and the Training of Women; and Grants for Civil Liabilities and Reinstatement."
It is now a quarter-past one, and I hope you will accept a Motion to report Progress. The Motion to report Progress, which was disposed of some little while ago, was made on the ground that the Minister in charge had been unable to answer some questions which were put to him. I venture to suggest, on the broader grounds which I am now going to state, that this Motion is one which is deserving of very favour able consideration. The Vote which we are now going to deal with is one of great and serious importance. We have no desire at all to obstruct this Vote. I quite admit that we exerted our powers of debate a little while ago, but on this very important question we conceive that it is our public duty to direct the whole of our energies to the task of finding the best way to elucidate the proper merits of it and dealing with the needs of all the classes who are brought within its ambit. There is another Vote which we think might perhaps be taken with very little discussion so far as we are concerned. It is the War Bonus Vote. It is a large sum, I agree, £2,350,000; but the grounds upon which it is asked for are grounds upon which we think the increases might, subject to the necessary examination—
May I interrupt? Our only desire is to get through the necessary business, and if it is the general sense of the House that the Vote which my right hon. Friend has named would be given now without any lengthy discussion the Government are quite ready to agree to taking it instead of this one.
And that would mean that that would be the only other estimate we would take to-night?
indicated assent.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Unclassified Services
War Bonus
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £2,350,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, to meet such of the Charges for War Bonus, &c., as have not been otherwise provided."
I do not want to take up the time of the Committee after the very generous concession we have been given by the Lord Privy Seal, but I want to say one or two sentences on this Vote in view of the financial stringency of the position. We all know the terrible rise in the cost of living which is the cause of this Vote. The cost of living has gone up and all these civil servants are hard hit, and they are receiving in some cases a badly needed war bonus. The war bonus is undoubtedly needed for the lower grades, but I think it is a great mistake of policy, and perhaps I may have a reason for it if the Treasury Bench do not agree, to give the bonus automatically to the higher grades of the Civil Service, the men, I mean, who are earning their £2,000 a year, the highly paid officials of the Ministry of Transport. Because you have to give your charwomen, on a wage nominally of 22s. a week, a bonus to enable them to live in decency, it is a mistake to give it automatically to the highly paid salaried officials. I make that point because I think that at least somebody who strives for economy ought to make that protest. My next point is that if civil servants are performing a public service, so are miners. They are performing a great and patriotic public service in producing wealth from the ground. They put in for a rise in wages, and without going into the merits of it, I would only like to make a comparison of the way in which those miners had to fight for a rise in wages to meet the cost of living and the ease with which we vote this. They put in another demand for a reduction in the price of coal. That demand was afterwards dropped, but the main burden of their demands was that the cost of living had gone up and they wanted a rise in wages. After a series of negotiations there was a deadlock and a strike—a disastrous strike which has done untold harm to the country. We shall feel the effects of it for many months. When that great body of wage-earners put forward their demands they were not met, but here we are passing £2,350,000 for Civil Servants. Although the money may be needed, especially in the lower ranks, I think that the Committee ought to take notice of the difference in treatment and the way this Vote is passed through, practically without discussion, while we had that terrible strike in the summer for an equally deserving, equally democratic, class.
I am glad that the hon. Member has raised the question of bonuses to the highly-paid officials, because I think there has been some misunderstanding on this point. There is a great deal more to be said for it than may be apparent to Members who have not considered these questions. First of all, we ought to bear in mind that if you take the Civil Service, as covered by these bonuses, there are something like a quarter of a million servants, and a little more than 1 per cent, are classed as being in receipt of the highest incomes. So that the amount we have to deal with is very very small, and the amount of money is comparatively small.
With the higher salaries?
Yes; salaries of over £500 a year. I would also remind the Committee that when you get to the higher scale of payment you get a considerably reduced amount of bonus. The 130 per cent, is only paid in full to the men enjoying incomes of not more than 35s. per week. The actual average amount of bonus for men receiving £1,500 a year comes to something like 50 per cent., and there is a limitation that, whatever the percentage may be, the amount of the bonus shall not exceed £750. The point I want to put to the Committee is this. I suppose that, during the War, no factor so impressed itself on business men and men from outside who did work in the Civil Service as the comparatively low rate of remuneration paid to the ablest men occupying the highest positions in the service. Their incomes, whether paid by way of a salary or by bonuses, are subject to Income Tax at the full rate for that amount of income. There are cases in which the bonus brings the Civil Servant up to a comparatively low scale of Super-tax rate, which means that he has to pay a heavy additional tax. In the case of the higher paid Civil Servant, in his increased scale of bonus, the actual amount of money he receives when the tax is deducted brings him within about £100 of his pre-War salary. What I fear, and have feared since the War with regard to the Civil Service, is this. When you come to consider how very few and small openings there are in the Service for even the comparatively highly-paid posts compared with the inducements in commerce, I fear that you may get drawn into the business of this country the very class of man whom you have, hitherto, drawn into the Civil Service. The Civil Servant generally comes of a stock that values, beyond everything, the high education which it has had. There is nothing nearer and dearer to his heart than to be able to bring up his children and give them the same conditions of education. That is a class which we want to maintain in this country, and if we do not help them through this time of greatly increased cost of living and of the small purchasing power of money, we shall inevitably lose this class of man, and drive them into whatever vocation of life may offer them the opportunities to bring up their children in the same way that they have been brought up themselves. With the comparatively small amount of money involved, you will be repaid over and over again. I have never justified, in this Committee, with greater confidence than I do now, the giving of this moderate bonus to the highly-paid Civil Servant.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
Committee to sit again To-morrow.
Married Women (Maintenance) Bill [Lords]
Read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919
I beg to move,
The measure itself is a measure declaring that Convocation has power to reform itself. The necessity for this measure is this: It has long been a matter of common and general agreement that the parochial clergy should be more largely represented than they are in the Lower Houses of Convocation, especially in the lower House of Canterbury. The present constitution is that the majority of the clergy who sit there are the official clergy, the Archdeacons, Deans, and representatives of the chapels It is justly felt that it is desirable that Convocation should really represent the parochial clergy, and, therefore, it is desirable that the reform of the Lower Houses should be made in order that they might be more completely represented. But there is a difficulty as to how that should be carried out. Convocation is an older body than Parliament itself. It owes its origin to King Edward I., and it would be undesirable, both on the ground of its ancient character and traditions and the spiritual independence of the Church, that Parliament should directly reconstitute Convocation. The question, therefore, arise: Can Convocation reform itself? Eminent lawyers found a difficulty, because the Act for the submission of the Clergy says that Canons of Convocation must not alter any law or custom of the Realm, and there is some ground for thinking that the constitution of Convocation amounts to a custom of the Realm. This made a difficulty which stood in the way of the reform of Convocation for some years, until I believe it was Lord Selborne who first suggested that Parliament sometimes in such a case removed a doubt by declaring the law. It is the purpose of this measure to carry out the idea. It is to declare that Convocation has this power about which doubt has been felt.
The proposal will, I am sure, commend itself to all Members of this House, whatever their school of thought on church matters, or whatever their feeling about church reform. It is necessary that it should be passed, because under the terms of the Church Assembly Act the Church Assembly is precluded from entering upon any other business until it has completed the reform of the constitution of its own body. It is not allowed under its own constitution to proceed to measures of church reform until the House of Convocation has been reformed. Therefore, I hope the House will consent to pass this Resolution in order that the matter may be dealt with. I beg to move.
I do not propose to oppose this Resolution. I know nothing at all about it, but in order that the House should not be in ignorance I would like to ask why the Noble Lord is in charge of the Resolution. I would also like to know why this Resolution is exempted from the ordinary rules of the House and can be taken after eleven o'clock?
It is open to anybody to put down a Motion and, after consultation with the Leader of the House and Mr. Speaker, I put it down merely for the convenience of the House. The hon. Member could have done so himself, and if he is anxious to do so on the next occasion I shall be glad to assist him. As to the Resolution being exempted business, it is exempted under Standing Orders, which provide that Resolutions of this House which are necessary to an Act of Parliament are exempted.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved,
" That, in accordance with The Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Convocations of the Clergy Measure, 1920, be presented to His Majesty for Royal Assent."
The remaining Government Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock, upon Wednesday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the Rouse, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at twenty-four minutes before Two o'clock.