House of Commons
Monday, December 20, 1920
The House met at a Quarter before Three' of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Oral Answers to Questions
Trade and Commerce
Cement
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether there is a shortage of cement for industrial purposes in the country resulting in unemployment; whether cement is being exported to foreign countries; and, if so, in what quantity?
I am aware that there is at present a shortage of cement in this country. The output is, however, improving and I am in hopes that this will continue. The exports of cement for the eleven months ended 30th November amount to 246,184 tons valued at £1,338,000 to foreign countries and 318,939 tons valued at £2,022,000 to British Possessions. Exports represent about 23 per cent. of the total output—a proportion substantially the same as obtained before the War.
Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the fact that big works in this country have been brought to a standstill owing to the fact that cement was not obtainable, and will he take steps to see that that does not happen during this grave period of employment?
I am sure the hon. Member will recognise that the question is always one of balance. It is of enormous advantage to this country to be able to send out exports, especially anything so valuable as cement. On the other hand, it is of great importance that we should keep our own industries fully supplied with what they require. We endeavour to carry that out as far as we can, with the object of suiting the country in every way that is possible.
Is it not a fact that some cement works have been closed down, or partially closed down, and can the right hon. Gentleman do anything in view of the great demand for cement production?
It has revived, undoubtedly.
Can something be done to increase the number of ex-service men engaged in the production of cement?
We have considered the matter from that point of view also, and I think we have done everything that can be done in the matter.
Will the right hon. Gentleman call for a return of the number of cement works that are closed down, and the number of men that could be employed if they were opened up; and if they are not opened up by private people, will he take them over for that purpose; and is he aware that for every ton of cement produced there is further employment given in other trades?
The hon. Member may rely upon the fact that if there are opportunities, as there are, for marketing cement at a profit, private enterprise will be quite equal to the task.
Will the right hon. Gentleman call for a return, and is he aware that private enterprise is not doing it for reasons best known to the Government? Is he aware that what we ought to do is to provide employment?
I do not think it would be valuable to call for any such return at the present time. I am perfectly certain that everything is being done that can be done by individuals in the cement trade.
Is it not a fact that the cement works that are closed down are entirely out of date and are unable to make cement economically?
That is my information.
Is it not better to employ men in cement production than to give them unemployment pay?
That again is a matter of opinion.
Exports to Belgium
asked the President of the Board of Trade the value of British exports to Belgium for the year 1919 and up till 31st October for the present year?
The total value of the exports to Belgium of produce and manufactures of the United Kingdom, registered during the periods specified, was as follows: During the year 1919, £47,980,441. During January to October, 1920, £43,914,984.
Exports to Germany
asked the President of the Board of Trade the value of British exports to Germany for the year 1919, and up till 31st October for the present year?
The total value of the exports to Germany of produce and manufacture of the United Kingdom, registered during the periods specified, was as follows: During the year 1919, £14,693,113. During January to October, 1920, £17,101,307.
British Glass Industries, Limited
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Sub-Committee appointed by the Standing Committee on Trusts to inquire into the operations of combinations in the glass ware and glass bottle trades reported that the operations of the British Glass Indus tries, Limited, gravely reduced any chance of glass bottles reaching the consumer at reasonable prices; and, if so, what action, if any, does he propose to take?
The Sub-Committee reported in the sense indicated by the hon. Member. They further stated that they were informed that it is not the intention of the principal companies concerned to force up selling prices, but rather to obtain a large output and to sell as cheap as possible; but the Committee were not satisfied that this policy would necessarily be carried out. The Committee made no specific recommendations; but as the manufacture by automatic machinery in this country is controlled by British patents, any abuse of the monopoly can be made the ground for an application either for revocation or for a compulsory licence under Section 1 of the Patents and Designs Act, 1919.
Imports from Germany
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can give any information as to the effect which the importation of goods from Germany is having on the glass, hollow-ware, clock-making, silk, hosiery, paper, motor, fancy goods, leather, musical instruments, and toy industries in this country; and whether he can give any estimate as to the number of people who are now unemployed in consequence of such imports?
It is the fact that, as a result of importations from Germany, employment has fallen off in many of the industries mentioned, but it would be impossible to give any reliable estimate as to the extent to which such unemployment as prevails is due to this cause.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether his Department or one of the Government Departments has not detailed figures as to the causes of unemployment in different industries, and whether it is not possible by a little investigation to give a figure which is of very great importance at the present time?
I think my hon. Friend will realise that you may have several causes operating at one time which make it impossible for you to say how many men have gone out of employment owing to each different cause. For example, a certain number goes out of employment owing to the high cost of material; a certain number goes out of employment owing to the rate of exchange from which we are suffering at the present time, but no one who breathes can tell you how many go out of employment for one cause or another.
If this unemployment is caused to some extent by German imports, I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman could give the House the information.
If the hon. Gentleman thinks of it for a moment, he will see that that would be quite impossible.
Is there a certain amount of extra employment caused by our exports?
I cannot give the extra number of men employed in that way at present.
Is not this excessive German competition encouraged by the depreciated state of the German mark, and is not that due to the excessive and uncertain amount of the indemnity imposed on Germany by the Treaty of Versailles?
I have just stated that the rate of exchange at present is one of the causes which enable Germany to export to this country at prices cheaper than those at which we can manufacture.
What steps are the Government taking to improve the rate of exchange?
There is nothing that we can do to improve the rate of exchange, but it may be possible to devise ways of overcoming the difficulties that are caused by it.
Is Germany exporting in the same way direct to America now and causing unemployment there?
I am not aware of that.
Has not the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Terrell) already told the Government that the Excess Profits Duty was the sole cause of unemployment?
I said nothing of the sort.
German Competition
asked the President of the Board of Trade if a German engineering firm has obtained a Dominion contract of 40 sets of engines at a price of £400,000, comparing with the lowest British tender of £680,000; if a further difficulty in the case of English manufacturers was that they could not guarantee delivery owing to labour unrest; what definite action the Government are taking to remedy the condition of things under which imporant contracts of this kind are repeatedly going to foreign competitors and aggravating the unemployment difficulty?
I have seen a report in the sense of the first part of the hon. Member's question, but I have no definite information on the subject. The difficulty experienced by British manufacturers in guaranteeing delivery is due to a number of factors arising out of the abnormal conditions caused by the War, and it is not within the power of this Government or of any Government to restore normal conditions artificially. I may, however, mention that I am aware of important Dominion contracts which have recently been obtained by British firms in the face of foreign competition.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many of these industries in Germany the workmen work 11 hours a day instead of 8 hours as is done under the trade unions here, and have thrown over in many cases the regulations of the trade unions, and does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it would be a great deal better in this country if we could do more to obtain the production of labour instead of having it stultified under trade unions?
I am quite aware that in certain industries in Germany the men are working longer hours than here, and also that they are working for less wages, and of course the exchange is a factor to which I have referred, but I am sure that my hon. Friend will recognise that we cannot take artificial means to deal with these matters without exercising very great care.
Are the Government doing anything in reference to the exchange, and, if so, what?
It is a matter that is causing great anxiety, and I hope that in a measure to be presented next Session we shall be able to suggest some steps for dealing with the matter.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise that before next Session an immense amount of harm may be done to British manufactures, and cannot something be done in the meantime, without waiting for the reassembling of Parliament?
What are my constituents who are unemployed to do between now and next Session?
It will require legislation to deal with this matter, and there must be some delay unless hon. Members are prepared to sit continuously.
May I press for an answer to my question?
The hon. Member had better put down a further question.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the disaster which threatens numerous British industries at the hands of German competition owing to difference in the exchange, which permits German manufacturers to import goods into this country at such a cost that it is quite impossible for British manufacturers to compete, he will give an undertaking when framing his policy dealing with dumping, that he will at the same time so draft the measure as to deal with the difference in value of goods owing to the exchange, which is far more fatal to British industries than any underselling by dumping in normal times?
It is the intention of the Government to include in a Bill to be introduced at the beginning of next Session, provisions dealing with the situation caused by the importation of goods at abnormally low prices owing to the state of certain of the exchanges.
International Barter
asked the Prime Minister whether any steps have been, or are being, taken to establish any system of international barter in order to overcome difficulties in connection with the exchanges and re-establish international trade?
The Board of Trade have been engaged for some time in consultation with banking and general trade representatives in trying to produce a scheme which will facilitate trade with countries whose producing power has been largely destroyed by the difficulties of the exchange. I may add that the possibilities of barter in cases in which exchange has totally collapsed have not been overlooked, and I understand that some attempts at trade have been made along these lines.
Navy and Army Canteen Board
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government holds at present, through the Canteen Dispersal Committee or other body, any stocks and, if so, what stocks of tobacco; if so, whether such stocks are being sold to other Departments of the Government which otherwise would be under the necessity of purchasing tobacco; and whether any such Departments have purchased in the open market while the Government holds tobacco still unsold?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. As already explained in this House, the transactions of the Navy and Army Canteen Board are not carried out with public money or charged upon the Votes of Parliament and the stocks of the Board are therefore not Government property. Stocks of tobacco are held by the War Office for issue to the troops serving in certain countries overseas, where tobacco forms part of the soldier's ration; such stocks are not being sold to other Government Departments. The War Office has not bought any tobacco from the Navy and Army Canteen Board. I cannot say whether any other Departments have purchased from the Board.
Does the right hon. Gentleman say that it is not the case that the Government and the War Office have large stocks of tobacco which are practically competing with the stocks in private hands?
No, Sir. I said that stocks of tobacco are held by the War Office and issued to the troops serving in certain countries overseas.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether these stocks are very large beyond the requirements, and whether such large stocks will be duly reduced?
I should be glad to ascertain if the hon. Member will put down a question.
Peace Treaties
German Government Securities
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the delay on the part of the German clearing office, he will decline to allow British claimants to suffer any longer by the dilatory administration of the German authorities, and to that end will he now disburse to British owners the amount of their properly proved claims for German Government securities in respect to which the three months' time limit provided by the Peace Treaty has expired; and, if he will not do so, will he explain what course is open to him, or which he proposes to pursue, in order to put an end to a state of affairs which defeats the intention of the Peace Treaty by preventing him paying the many millions sterling which he holds belonging to British claimants against Germany?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by me on the 13th December to a similar question. The British Clearing Office is making every effort to obtain a settlement without further delay and has sent a special officer to Berlin to investigate the German position and to expedite their procedure.
Documents (Publication)
asked the Prime Minister when he will carry out his undertaking to publish all agreements, protocols, etc., relating to the execution of the Treaty of Versailles?
I much regret that I am not yet able to add anything to the statement made in the House on this subject by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on 13th December.
May I ask the Prime Minister to let us have an answer to this before we rise for the Recess, or how long shall we have to wait?
The difficulty does not arise on our side. We are anxious to have all these documents published, but we have not yet been able to secure the assent of the French Government. I am not sure as to the Italian Government. I am not very hopeful of much progress being made until I have had a personal interview with the Prime Minister of France.
Does the right hon. Gentleman know that some of these have already been published in France? Why cannot we have them published here?
They have not been published officially in France. There is no doubt that the newspapers have got hold of garbled extracts, but there is a great difference between those extracts and official publication.
Is it not far better to correct the garbled extracts by publishing the official documents? Are we dependent on the will of France or any other country for publication here?
That is why we are in favour of publication. When you are negotiating with other Powers you must have their assent before you publish.
It is quite obvious that we cannot have them before Thursday. Will the right hon. Gentleman state what steps he proposes to take?
I have already said that I do not think there will be any real progress until I have had an opportunity of talking the matter over with the French Prime Minister.
International Financial Conference
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the International Financial Conference held at Brussels expressed the hope that the economic uncertainty which besets alike the countries which are entitled to receive and the countries which are under an obligation to pay reparation claims may speedily be removed, since the settlement of this question is indispensable not only for the reconstruction of the countries devastated by the War, a matter of capital importance to the re-establishment of Europe's economic equilibrium, but also for the recovery of the States on which the burden of this reparation lies; and whether he will take prompt and immediate steps to remove this economic uncertainty?
Preliminary discussion on this subject is now taking place at Brussels between the experts of the Governments concerned. His Majesty's Government cannot act alone in this matter.
War Bond Policies
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the issue of 1,500,000 so-called war bond policies by an insurance office during the last three years; whether he is aware that a very large number of persons took up these policies in the belief that they were helping their country; whether 600,000 of these policies have already lapsed, with total loss to those who took them up; whether, in fact, this insurance company only held security value of war bonds to the extent of about one-third of the value of the policies issued; and what action he proposes to take?
I assume the hon. and gallant Member is referring to the Prudential Assurance Company. In that event I would refer him to the answers I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull on the 22nd July and 16th August last, of which I will send him copies.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that representations were made to the public in the form of appeals which were described as 5 per cent National War Bonds? Is he aware that the patriotism of the public was exploited, and are the Treasury going to take any steps to hold an inquiry into something which is a very serious scandal?
That is in substance the question which I have previously answered, and I would ask my hon. Friend, if he has not seen that answer, to read it.
Coal Industry
Exports from Humber Ports
14 and 17.
asked the Secretary for Mines (1) whether he is aware that the amount of industrial coal on the market to-day is greater than the demand and that trade channels are being blocked, and that there is. a shortage of coal trucks at the Yorkshire colieries due to Yorkshire coal being sent to all parts of England; and whether, in view of the above facts and the present increased output of coal in the mines, he will remove the embargo on coal export from the Humber ports;
2) whether the Tyne and South Wales have received permits to export coal in increased quantities while the Humber ports are not allowed to participate in any shape or form; and, if so, will he take immediate steps to remove this inequality of treatment in granting licences for coal export?
The export allocations from the Tyne and South Wales have not been increased; but the Supplies Committees of those areas have a certain discretion to permit export in excess of the allocation where they are satisfied that a strict enforcement of the restrictions would hamper the working of the pits. As regards Yorkshire the supply of industrial coal is only part of the problem. There is still a very grave shortage both for public utilities and domestic consumption in districts served by Yorkshire; and I do not feel able, with this information before me, to allow further relaxation of the restrictions on the shipment of Yorkshire coal at present.
When will the accounts of the third quarter be published?
They have been published.
Transport
Motor Cars (Registration)
asked the Minister of Transport whether he has received representations from the Staffordshire County Council regarding the proposals contained in his circular R.F. 105, of the 29th November, concerning the registration of motor cars; and whether he will amend the proposed Regulation so as to secure as far as possible the retention by owners of motor cars of their old numbers, so as to avoid expense and satisfy sentiment?
Under the Regulations proposed all mechanically-propelled road vehicles properly registered on the 31st December, 1920, will retain the marks and numbers then allotted to them, so long as such vehicles exist, and it will, therefore, not be necessary for new numbers to be allotted to, and new number plates to be obtained by owners of such vehicles in the coming year. No expense under that head is therefore being incurred.
Is not the point of the representations that owners should be able to retain the numbers though not necessarily sticking to the individual's cars?
However great the sentimental and affectionate regard which the owner may have for his number, I do not think that it is too much to make the change.
Railway Police
asked the Minister of Transport whether any provision is being made in the Bill dealing with the future of railways for providing general machinery to deal with questions of wages and working conditions in respect of the railway police; and whether, in view of the fact that there is no existing machinery whereby these men may make collective representations to their employers, he will receive a deputation of the accredited representatives of the railway police forces on the question of the formation of a federation?
As regards the first part of this question, it is not intended that the Bill referred to shall include provisions for setting up machinery to deal specially with the wages and conditions of service of the railway police. As regards the second part, I would point out that arrangements exist whereby the railway police can make collective representations to their employers, and that an agreement as to wages and conditions of service was made between the general managers and representatives of the police in September last.
Railways, Scotland
asked the Minister of Transport whether his attention has been drawn to a memorandum prepared by representatives of the Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Greenock, Leith, and South of Scotland Chambers of Commerce respecting the proposals contained in the Ministry of Transport White Paper [Cmd. 787], as affecting the Scottish railways; and whether an oppor- tunity will be given either to the Scottish Members of Parliament, or to the representatives of Scottish Chambers of Commerce, to state their case before any decision is reached as to the grouping of the Scottish railways.
I have seen the memorandum referred to and I am very fully alive to the consideration therein expressed. I have also received the views of other large interests affected by the proposals and I am very willing to discuss the matter with Members representing Scottish constituencies later on if they are not satisfied that all the aspects of the matter are already before me.
Asphalt Pavement, London
asked the Minister of Transport whether his attention has been called to the extensive replacement of wood surfacing in London streets by asphalt; whether this asphalt is very much more slippery than wood pavement under most conditions of weather, causing the most serious difficulty and danger to all forms of traffic, both horse-drawn and motor; whether the Department has conducted any experiments with a view to rendering such surfaces less slippery, and, if so, with what result; whether he has considered the possibility of effecting an improvement by pockmarking or chipping such surfaces; and, if so, can the local authorities concerned be asked to take some action in the matter?
It is a fact that wood surfacing is being replaced to a certain extent in London streets by asphalt, for reasons of expense. I am not prepared to agree, however, that asphalt is very much more slippery under ordinary conditions than wood paving. As regards the experiments which are being carried out by my Department, I would refer the Noble Lord to the answer given on 8th November to the right hon. and gallant Member for Totnes, of which I am sending him a copy. The expedient of pockmarking or chipping road surfaces is not practicable, as it would result in their rapid deterioration.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to let us know in the near future the results of the deliberations of the Committee?
The deliberations and experiments are going on all the time, but I shall be glad to give my hon. and gallant Friend any information which he desires.
Wet Carbonising, Limited
asked the Prime Minister at what date the Government made a grant to Wet Carbonising, Limited; what was the amount of the grant and on what terms; and for what purpose the grant was made?
I am informed that no grant has been made to Wet Carbonising, Limited; the remainder of the question therefore does not arise. In the summer of 191V certain expenditure was incurred by this company on behalf of the Government in connection with the scheme for the erection of a factory in France for the manufacture of peat briquettes for the use of the forces in the trenches. This expenditure, amounting to about £10,000, was advanced by the War Office.
Russia
General Wrangel
asked the Prime Minister whether the surviving portions of the army of Baron Wrangel are being reorganised and re- equipped; whether this is being done on territory under the control of the Allies; whether these troops will be used for further attacks on Soviet Russia; and why they have not been disarmed and interned?
A portion of the troops formerly constituting General Wrangel's army has been placed by the French authorities in French camps at Mudros, Gallipoli, and Chatalja. His Majesty's Government have nothing to do with these arrangements. I have no information to show whether any equipment has been issued to them. It would appear that the main difficulty is to provide them with even the means of subsistence.
Trade Relations
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the depressed condition of the tea trade is largely due to the loss of the Russian market; and will he give due weight to this fact in hastening the resumption of trading relations with Russia, under whatever government or misgovernment she may rise or fall?
The Government will certainly give due weight to the importance of the tea trade in atempting to hasten resumption of trading relations with Russia.
asked the Prime Minister what progress has been made with the negotiations for re-opening trade between Russia and Siberia and the British Empire; and whether His Majesty's Government is seeking to interfere with Russian action in territories of the former Russian Empire and especially in the Caucasus, and thus. holding up the negotiations?
asked the Prime Minister whether the arrangements for the re-establishment of commercial relations with Russia have now been completed; and whether he can give the details of such arrangements?
I shall answer these two questions together. I cannot add anything to the answer which I gave on Monday last to questions on this subject. As regards the last part of the question by the hon. and gallant Member for Hull, the answer is in the negative.
When will the right hon. Gentleman be in a position to make a statement and to give facilities for discussion before the House rises, as promised?
I think it will be possible for the President of the Board of Trade to make a statement on Wednesday.
Shall we not have the opportunity, promised by the Prime Minister, of debating this matter tomorrow?
On Wednesday there will be a full opportunity for discussion, on the statement of the President of the Board of Trade.
asked the Prime Minister why the notes exchanged between the Russian Soviet Government and the British Government on the subject of trade have not been published?
Negotiations are still going on on this subject, and I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by publishing any part of the correspondence at present.
Refugees
(by Private Notice) asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how long it is proposed that the British taxpayers should remain responsible for the maintenance of Russian refugees?
His Majesty's Government have not yet fixed a time limit to this responsibility, but it is hoped that the arrangement concluded with the Government of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes will result at no distant date in relieving the British taxpayer of this charge. Meanwhile, in view of the possibility of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes not being able to secure employment for the refugees, other expedients are receiving careful attention.
I shall call attention to this matter on the Appropriation Bill.
Minesweepers' Co-Operative Trawling Society
asked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to announce a definite decision on the Government proposals in regard to the Minesweepers' Co-operative Trawling Society which were submitted on the 8th ultimo by the committee whose assistance in framing the scheme was invited by the Government; and whether the Government is prepared to afford such financial assistance as will enable the scheme to be put into operation forthwith?
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture (on Saturday, 18th December) whether he can make any further statement with regard to the progress of the scheme for the co-operative management of fishing trawlers supplied to ex-service men and others by His Majesty's Government?
I have been asked to reply to Question 28 and I will answer at the same time Question No. 2, asked on Saturday by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull. The original scheme has broken down owing to the want of support afforded by the fishermen in the matter of raising the necessary funds. The Admiralty is prepared to sympathetically consider any further scheme submitted if based on sound financial principles.
Is that the only difficulty? Was not one of the reasons why the fishermen did not subscribe that they were not guaranteed the price of fuel and ice?
I do not think so, at all.
With regard to the financial assistance given by the Government to men who served on land as compared with men who served at sea, is the hon. Gentleman conscious of the great difference of treatment denoted by his answer?
Yes, Sir. The whole scheme that was put forward in the first instance depended on subscriptions being raised among the fishermen. That failed and, consequently, this scheme broke down, but the Admiralty is quite prepared to receive any suggestions for a new scheme which is based on a sound financial footing.
Will the hon. Gentleman observe the point of my question— that with the case of soldiers no financial commitment on their part was required to secure the assistance of the Government.
Of course, the right hon. Gentleman knows quite well that I have no official knowledge of the schemes to which he refers. All that I could do as Financial Secretary to the Admiralty was to consider this scheme from a financial point of view.
Does the reply mean the final decision of the Government that the scheme as originally promoted is now terminated, and that the Government can consider only new schemes for assisting the men who served at sea?
The whole matter is under our very careful consideration. It is a question of coming to some terms on the financial side. If that is arrived at I am sure my right hon. Friend will back it up.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that proposals have already been submitted to the Government, and may I ask whether those proposals are as definitely turned down as is the original scheme?
I am not aware of any proposals being made subsequent to the original scheme.
War (Cost and Casualties)
asked the Prime Minister whether he has received a copy of a resolution unanimously passed at a largely attended meeting of the Parliamentary Committee of the League of Nations Union, including representatives of all political parties, to the effect that the Government be requested to present to Parliament, at the earliest possible moment, a Return showing the cost of the Great War to each nation engaged in it, in respect of life, limb, property, and money, in so far as information is available from responsible sources; and whether he can see his way to comply with this request?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Government are considering whether such a Return can be compiled without labour and expense disproportionate to its value.
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that it is currently reported that there were 34,000,000 casualties in the War and 9,000,000 deaths. and that according to the estimate of Professor Bogart, of the University of Illinois, the real economic cost of the War amounted to £50,000,000,000 directly and £67,000,000,000 directly and indirectly, and would it not be advisable to have an authoritative statement regarding the matter to hand down to future generations?
From investigations I think those figures are substantially accurate. I agree that it would be very desirable, where possible, to get a full return, but that does not depend entirely on this country. It involves investigation abroad, and there are some countries whose losses have been so very heavy that the best information you could get would be conjecture. In Russia, and even in Austria and Turkey, you could not get anything like an accurate estimate, and the best calculation would be a guess. I think there is a good deal to be said for a return of this kind, if it can be done without enormous expenditure.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of issuing an accurate return of what the War has cost this country?
That is done, I think, completely.
Government. Bills
asked the Prime Minister whether, notwithstanding the House having had an Autumn Session over two months in duration, the following measures foreshadowed in the Gracious Speech from the Throne have not been passed into law: proposals for the acquisition of coal royalties by the State, a Licensing Bill, a Bill to encourage and develop the fishing industry, Bills dealing with the regulation of the hours of employment, the establishment of a minimum rate of wage, with dumping, and with the creation of an adequate supply of cheap electrical and water power, and also the reform of the Second Chamber; and whether, in considering the legislation to be brought forward in 1921, he will take steps to reduce to the absolute minimum the Bills to be brought forward in view of the long and arduous Sessions of this and last year?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second part, that the Government recognise that, owing to the arrears due to the War, it has been necessary to carry through Parliament during the last two years an unprecedented amount of legislation. They fully realise the disadvantages of legislating under such pressure, and have always hoped, as they now do, that the programme in the subsequent Sessions of this Parliament will be much less exacting.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability, in view of the present state of national finance, of seeing that no measures are introduced next Session involving expenditure, so that the House may devote itself to the discussion of the finances of the country at other times than late at night?
It is undoubtedly very desirable that there should be no additional financial obligations except those which are urgently demanded by the conditions of the country.
Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)
asked the Prime Minister whether he can state precisely the functions at present being exercised by the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic); the kind of occasion which requires a meeting of the Board; the number of meetings held during 1920; the principal administrative officer of the Board; and whether he can give an estimate of the monthly cost involved in the work of administration and the meetings of the Board?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The functions of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) are those which are assigned to them by the Defence of the Realm (Liquor Control) Regulations, 1915. I could not undertake to define the occasions requiring a Board meeting. Ten meetings have been held during 1920; the Board's principal administrative officer is Sir John Sykes, K.C.B.; the estimate for the expenditure of the current year is to be found in the Paper presented to the House in the usual way in February.
Is it not the fact that the Board administers funds and debits losses and charges to trading account, without coming before the House of Commons at all?
I do not think it means that.
asked the Prime Minister whether he has observed that the personnel of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) contains no representatives of the bonâ-fide habitués of public-houses; and will he request the resignations therefrom of representatives of the Trade, the Temperance party, and trades union officials, and other non-manual occupations, and replace them with users of public-houses, choosing working men engaged in bodily toil, such as dock labourers, navvies, porters, and the like, preferring those who dwell in model lodging and Rowton Houses, and who are sober but readily admit that they spend their leisure in adjoining licensed premises, in order that, instead of the views being given effect to only of those who profit in cash through selling drink, or those who think they gain credit by denouncing it, the views of the customers who comprise the majority of the population may be really represented and Regulations giving effect thereto enacted?
Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that question, will he consider the advisability of putting the victims of the public-houses, who are represented generally by the wives of the habitués of the public-houses, on the Liquor Control Board?
I have been asked to reply to this question. I cannot accept my hon. Friend's description of the present Board, and his suggestions for an ideal membership are, I fear, impracticable.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to have the regulation of the churches put in the hands of prominent atheists, agnostics, and non-churchgoers, and also the regulation of maternity homes put into the hands of barren old maids and impotent and ascetic bachelors?
asked the Prime Minister whether steps can be taken to put the working men's clubs in the scheduled areas for liquor control on the same footing as those in the non-scheduled areas, so as to have an equality of treatment among the various clubs throughout the country?
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that many of the restrictions imposed by Orders of the Liquor Control Board on the consumption and sale of liquor in clubs were purely war measures and are not required by or suitable to the present peace-time conditions, and in view of the fact that it is improbable that legislation can be carried through Parliament within the next six months or more, he will consider which of these restrictions may immediately be withdrawn or modified and will instruct the Liquor Control Board accordingly?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. I would refer the hon. Members to the answer I gave to similar inquiries on the 8th instant.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the exceedingly strong feeling on the subject of these liquor restrictions that exists among working men's clubs all throughout the country?
I have only jus returned from—[HON. MEMBERS: " Order, order! "] May I ask if it is really as much feeling among the working men's clubs as it is among the trade, which works up the feeling among the working men's clubs?
Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the present administration of the Liquor Control Board is such that equal facilities are given to the working men's clubs as are given to other clubs and to hon. Members of this House?
I have nothing to add to my answer.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the working men's clubs are the enemies of the trade, and that the trade and the working men's clubs have no connection, but that the feeling among both is equally strong against these restrictions?
Oh, oh!
League of Nations
Mandates
asked the Prime Minister in what form the terms of the Mandates to be assumed by the British Empire will be laid before this House; and when the first of these terms of Mandates will be ready for submission to the League of Nations and to this House?
Any Mandate that is given to the British Empire will be laid before the House after its approval by the Council of the League of Nations. The four Mandates for Samoa, New Guinea, Nauru and South West Africa which were approved by the Council on Friday, 17th December, will be laid immediately.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Mr. Speaker has expressed the opinion that once these Mandates have been approved by the Council it will not be possible for this House to amend them; and would it not strengthen our position if we could have these presented to this House for approval and then sent on to the Council?
Are we to understand that the Palestine Mandate though presented on the same date had not been approved of on Friday?
My hon. Friend had better ask the Lord President of the Council.
May I have an answer to my question?
It is rather an important question of policy. The hon. and gallant Gentleman must realise that the suggestion he makes derogates undoubtedly from the authority of the League.
If the Government are making up the terms of the Mandate, they might include a question of policy which ought to be approved by this House and we would be bound without other parties being in any way bound?
Geneva Assembly (Statement)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in the event of any of the three British representatives on the Assembly of the League of Nations being back in this country before the House rises for Christmas, he will make arrangements for a short statement to be made in Parliament by one of those representatives on the recent work of the assembly at Geneva?
If time can be found, my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council will make a statement before the Prorogation.
Will that be on the Consolidated Fund Bill?
Yes.
Will the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman also cover his colleague the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil)?
Oh, no!
Housing
Operative Bricklayers' Association
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Operative Bricklayers' Association has blacked the contractors now engaged in building 96 houses for the Chadderton Urban District Council under the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act, 1919, and thereby stopped the whole building scheme; whether the sole cause for such action is the employment by the contractors of three ex-service men as skilled tradesmen upon sub - contracts; and whether he will take immediate steps to protect these men from dismissal and the building scheme from interference?
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the action of the Operative Bricklayers' Association in blacking the contractors now engaged in the housing scheme of the Chadderton Urban District Council on account of their employment of ex-service men; whether such action has had the effect of stopping the scheme; and whether he will take steps to remedy this deadlock at once?
As the answer is a somewhat lengthy one, I propose to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the clerk to the council mentioned states publicly to-day that his council is not undertaking any work at all directly in the way of building houses, and that the cause of the trouble is entirely different from that stated in the question?
Those points are dealt with in the reply which I think it is desirable to circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Can the hon. Gentleman give us the reply now, as the question raises an issue of great importance?
If the House desires it.
"No!" and "Yes!"
On a point of Order. May I ask, when the House expresses a general desire that an answer should be read, whether it is not proper for the Minister to read it?
It is difficult to say, whether it is a general desire or not. If the answer proved to be a very long one, hon. Members cut out from asking questions would object.
The following is the reply prepared:
I have been asked to reply to the questions asked by the hon. and gallant Member for Moss Side and the hon. Member for Exeter upon this subject and I propose to answer them together. I am informed that the contractor to the Chadderton Urban District Council housing scheme sub-let the bricklaying for the houses to six bricklayers who are members of the Operative Bricklayers' Society at a fixed price per house. Each of these men worked piece-work and are stated to have earned about £8 a week. The local union official objected on the ground that the union would not allow piece-work in any form, and the union instructed the six men to leave the job. Four complied with the orders of the union, but two have remained at work, one being an ex-service man who was a bricklayer before joining the Army. The contractor is now paying these two men the district time-rate for bricklayers of 2s. 4d. an hour, but, in addition, gives them a commission on the amount of material used. The Operative Bricklayers' Society is a party to an agreement with the North Western Area Federated Master Builders which provides that "no system of payment by results . . . .by whatever name it may be known, shall be allowed," but I understand that the contractor is not a party to this agreement. I hope that the trade will come to recognise that such cases are contrary both to public interest and to their own.
Building Materials
asked the Prime Minister if an agreement is arrived at between the Minister of Labour and the executives of the building trades to employ 50,000 men in the building industry, will he guarantee that a sufficient supply of bricks, cement, and other building materials will be provided by the Director of Building Material Supplies for the various schemes throughout the country, and that the men at present employed on these buildings and the ex-service men to be employed will not be suspended for the want of the. necessary supplies?
I have been asked to answer this question. The Department of Building Materials Supply does not undertake to supply all the materials required for housing schemes. My information, however, shows that the output of building materials, including bricks and cement, would be sufficient for the continuous employment both of the labour already employed on housing and of the additional labour proposed to be employed under the Government scheme.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that a number of builders' schemes are being held up by his Department not being able to give supplies; and has he no information that certain buildings in Scotland have been held up because they have not got supplies; and that men have been suspended on that work; and does he not think that by the putting of another 50,000 men on to the buildting trade, and not providing supplies, you are only going to have unemployment amongst the men at present employed on the schemes, and also men promised employment will not be able to get it?
There are various difficulties of transport and so forth, but my information is that in England, anyhow, there are practically no schemes short of material, and there is material to employ those men.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that his Building Materials Supply Department in England is also responsible for the building material supplies in Scotland, and while he is speaking for England can he give the same answer in regard to Scotland?
For the most part I am happy to say that contractors supply themselves, and I encourage them to do so as far as possible. There are difficulties in Scotland with respect to bricks.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that during the Recess, if he finds any schemes are being held up, and that ex-service men are not being employed because of want of supplies of materials, he will give a free hand to the local authorities to get supplies from whatever sources they can?
I have given the local authorities and contractors a free hand for months back if they have any difficulty.
Is it not the fact that local authorities must get their supplies of bricks and cement through the Building Materials Supply Department, and do not have a free hand in Scotland?
I do not know of Scotland, but, certainly, not in England.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is no difficulty in securing sufficient supplies of building material for luxury building and that it is only housing schemes which are kept short, and, in consequence, many skilled and unskilled men in the building trade are being turned out of work in Scotland?
My hon. Friend should address that question to the Secretary for Scotland. So far as this country is concerned, we have masses of work all over the country, where there is material to employ a great many more men than are there now.
Is the building of a public-house luxury building?
Mesopotamia (Oil)
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government have received any estimates of the net cost per ton of oil that would be en- tailed in erecting, maintaining, and reinforcing any oil-pipe line from the alleged North Mesopotamian oilfield near Mosul to the Mediterranean or the Persian Gulf; and whether the cost of getting oil from this source to the sea coast, if oil there be, would be commercially or economically profitable?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, although the subject has been considered. As regards the latter part, I think it may safely be assumed that if oil be found in quantity, there would be no commercial or economic obstacle to its transport by pipe line to the sea coast.
Public Accounts Committee (Fourth Report)
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to paragraphs 3 and 4 of the Fourth Report of the Public Accounts Committee; who was the Air Minister when the transactions in question took place, and who were the printers and the official upon whose advice the Minister acted; whether the official now occupies any position in the public service; and whether steps will be taken to bring this case of waste of public money to the notice of the persons concerned?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Report is at present under consideration by the Treasury. In answer to the second part, Lord Rothermere was Air Minister when the transactions took place, and the official concerned was Brigadier-General Guy Livingstone. The Public Accounts Committee has not thought it right to disclose the name of the printers in their Report. The answer to the third part of the question is in the negative, and to the last in the affirmative.
Why are the Government not prepared to disclose the names of the printers?
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the order was in fact given under the personal sanction of the Secretary of State and whether the Secretary of State took any action to obtain either advice or approval from the Treasury or the Stationery Office?
My hon. and learned Friend will find on pages 18 and 19 of the Appropriation Accounts of the Air Force, Parliamentary Paper No. 65, the correspondence between the Air Ministry and the Treasury, in which this statement is made, that the order was placed with the concurrence of the Air Minister.
Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed that the Noble Lord in question, the ex-Secretary of State for Air, has stated in the Paper that it was done without his knowledge, and that he has no responsibility for the squander mania and the action of a super-waster?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is not the first terminological inexactitude committed by the Gentleman referred to?
Ministry of Food
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government have decided to close down the Ministry of Food at the 31st March next; what was the total value of the stocks, book debts, and commitments of the Ministry of Food, including the Wheat and Sugar Commissions, and how long the process of liquidation is expected to take; whether it is proposed to retain any part of the organisation of the Ministry as contemplated by the Ministry of Food Continuance Act; whether the organisation so retained will be transferred to some other and what Department; and whether, in view of the increasing unemployment and the possibility of consequent further industrial unrest, the Government are satisfied that, the arrangements proposed will ensure fair retail prices and the maintenance of adequate machinery for the equitable distribution of food among all classes of the community?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The total value of the stocks, book debts, and commitments of the Ministry of Food, including the Wheat and Sugar Commissions, is, approximately, £150,000,000, and the process of liquidation is expected to take 12 months from the date of transfer. It is proposed to transfer to a permanent Department such of the powers of the Food Controller, including the power to fix prices, as may still be required, together with the necessary organisation. It is not anticipated that, except in case of emergency, any fresh exercise of these powers will be called for, but my right hon. Friend may rest assured that the Government is alive to the importance of maintaining the powers necessary to ensure an equitable and effective distribution of food.
Can the Prime Minister say to which Department it is intended to transfer these powers?
I would rather not answer that now.
Scotland
Steamer Services, Lewis
asked the Prime Minister whether he has received communications from the Highland Reconstruction Committee, Inverness, and from other public bodies protesting against the discontinuance by the Government of the daily steamer services which have been running between the island of Lewis and the mainland for about 40 years; and whether, in view of the great herring fishing season now commenced, with the consequent enormous increase in postal, passenger, and goods traffic, the Government will take immediate steps to have this most urgent service resumed without delay?
I have been asked to reply to this question. Representations of the nature indicated in the first part of the question have been received. I regret, however, that I am unable to add anything to the recent replies given to my hon. Friend on this subject.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the previous reply did not refer to three services a week, and will he not restore the service which has been in operation for the last 40 years?
I have explained at great length and, I hope, with complete sympathy, the reasons which have rendered the change necessary.
Does my right hon. Friend think it fair that the Government should spend millions of money in procuring canals, steamboats, railways, and motor boats for the wandering tribes of Mesopotamia, while cutting down the services between the island of Lewis and the mainland?
Royal Navy
New Ship Construction
asked the Prime Minister if the question of fresh naval construction will be discussed with the United States and Japan before deciding as to the new building programme to see whether an arrangement can be come to for reducing naval expenditure to a minimum consistent with national safety?
My hon. and gallant Friend may be sure that the point raised in his question will be fully considered at the inquiry instituted by the Committee of Imperial Defence.
Have any steps been initiated with a view to the discussion of this very big question
I am not sure it is not a little premature.
Before any decision is come to and contracts placed to build any of these fresh ships, will the House have an opportunity to discuss the question?
Yes, of course, the House will have an opportunity of discussing it before anything definite is done; the Estimates have to be submitted to the House before we incur any liability.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we have Votes before the House and we are told that the Government has been committed, and will he realise that it is only because I am desirous that the House should discuss it before the Government is committed that I press the question?
Will the right hon. Gentleman take care that the House is not pledged to build any kind of ships, capital or otherwise, until the Estimates have been presented next year?
That has been the course usually pursued.
May we have it that the Admiralty will not commit the country to any expenditure until the House of Commons has had the opportunity of discussing it?
Is not that exactly what the hon. Member (Sir F. Hall) asked just now, and got an assurance on?
Royal Air Force
asked the Prime Minister what economy would be effected by amalgamating the present separate administrations for War and Air Services; and if, in view of the urgent need for cutting down expenditure and the technical advantages of such a course, the Government will agree to the appointment of a Select Committee of the House to go into the matter?
It is the considered policy of His Majesty's Government to maintain a separate Air Service. The reason for this cannot be dealt with in answer to a question, but the subject can be fully discussed when the Air Estimates are presented next year.
May I ask, if it be the policy of the Government to maintain a separate Air Service, why the right hon. Gentleman does not have a separate Air Minister, so giving the Navy a chance of having the Air Service that they need?
My right hon. and gallant Friend knows that that was very fully discussed some time ago, and we do not quite take the view that he puts forward.
Can the right hon. Gentleman deny that the Navy are seriously concerned at the lack of air power that they get under the present arrangement under which the giving of air power to the Navy rests with the Secretary of State for War? Can he deny that?
On the contrary, the First Lord of the Admiralty expressed himself as completely satisfied with the arrangements made.
On that point, I am sure the right hon. Gentleman was not present at the Debate, at which the First Lord of the Admiralty stated exactly the opposite, and said that it was a temporary arrangement, which would not continue—
No replies to Government answers are permitted at Question Time.
Ireland
Disturbances (Cork)
asked the Prime Minister whether he can arrange for at least an Interim Report on the inquiry into the happenings at Cork before the House rises on Thursday?
I can make no promise on this matter, but I will make inquiries with a view, if possible, to making a statement before the House rises.
Is the Chief Secretary in a position to state yet whether it was discovered that these fires were started by forces of the Crown?
Inquiries are now proceeding, and I cannot add anything to what I have already said.
Will the right hon. Gentleman, in view of the Prorogation of Parliament this week, give the House some opportunity of discussing this matter possibly on the Appropriation Bill?
I did my best to answer that. I shall make inquiries, but, personally, I am bound by the court, and the necessity of the court continuing actively to find the perpetrators of this outrage.
May I ask why it is that, after he himself has stated in Debate on this question that the inquiry would be finished by the next day, it has gone on so long, and cannot he take special steps to get an interim report before the Prorogation?
I have done my best to answer that question.
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that by Thursday he will secure definite information at least on that point of who caused the fires?
Yes, I shall make inquiries on that.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the chief of the fire brigade, who worked so bravely at these fires from the first fire starting, has stated, in an interview, that no one was on the streets except the firemen and the forces of the Crown; and, if that is so, why does he resent a public and an open inquiry so that we may know who did cause the fire, because there is ample evidence as to who did start it?
That is rather a different matter.
Police (Martial Law)
(by Private Notice) asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether General Macready's new Order threatening death to the troops who take life or destroy property applies to the Royal Irish Constabulary, and to the Black and Tans, and whether General Macready's authority extends over these bodies; and whether the Inspector-General of the Royal Irish Constabulary and General Tudor now act under General Macready's orders, and whether General Macready is responsible for their conduct?
Since I gave notice of the question, I have received a letter from the Chief Secretary, who says that this question ought to be addressed to the War Office; but I submit with all respect to you, Mr. Speaker, that there is no precedent whatever for such an answer to my question. I am asking a question in regard to the position and status of the Inspector-General of the Royal Irish Constabulary and General Tudor, both of whom are under the jurisdiction, or supposed to be, of the Chief Secretary, and he, therefore, ought to be able to answer if any change has been made in their status. The Chief Secretary has also in-informed this House in debate, I think only a few days ago, that he is responsible for everything in Ireland. I submit, therefore, he ought to give me an answer to my question?
May I ask the Leader of the House whether the situation here is not exactly that upon which I questioned him, I think it was on Wednesday last? I then asked the Leader of the House to which Minister we ought to put questions concerning events taking place in these areas under martial law. If I remember rightly, he then informed me that the Chief Secretary was the Minister responsible; at that time I naturally thought it was within the jurisdiction of the Secretary of State for War. I now, therefore, ask the Leader of the House if he will kindly lear up this matter?
The question is entirely new. What I said was that the Chief Secretary was responsible for all acts in Ireland. If I understand this present question correctly, it is one dealing with the status and position of an officer. I think that is not quite the same thing.
My question has reference to the status of the Inspector-General of the Royal Irish Constabulary, which is a civil force, and under the authority of the Chief Secretary for Ireland. General Tudor is head of the Black and Tans, which is also said to be a civil force. That being so, I want to know from the Chief Secretary whether these two officers are now subject to General Macready, and whether they come under General Macready's orders that those persons who take life or destroy property will be liable to the death penalty?
I only received this private notice question at three-thirty. I wrote to the hon. and learned Gentleman suggesting that I thought it should be addressed to the Secretary of State for War, because the question was as to the order of. General Strickland, who commands the Munster Military Division in Ireland, and certain other persons.
I never mentioned General Strickland. I referred to General Macready. It is General Mac-ready I am after.
I understand the hon. and learned Member to be referring to the Order of General Strickland?
No, I refer to General Macready.
I only received the question at three-thirty, and seeing it is a very important question, I did not think I ought to be called upon to answer the question at all. As a matter of courtesy to the hon. Member I dropped him a note immediately on receiving the question, but if he would like an answer I will give him one now.
Yes.
The answer is this: that all the forces of the Crown in the martial law area are under the command of General Strickland who is acting under Genera] Sir Nevil Mac-ready.
May I inform the Chief Secretary that I sent him notice of the question by telephone to-day at 1] o'clock?
No, no! The hon. Member is wrong. He and some of his friends have a custom of telephoning the Irish Office and saying: " We are going to ask a Private Notice question to-day,' but leaving us in the dark as to what the question will be.
Perhaps I may be able to throw a little light upon the matter. The hon. and learned Member (Mr. MacVeagh) did bring a copy of his question to me somewhere about half-past three to-day, when we were almost through the questions. After a hasty glance at it, I told him he might ask the question; but I had no real opportunity of considering its full import.
I admit, Sir, that is quite correct. I did not give notice to you until nearly half-past three; but when the Chief Secretary suggests that I did not tell his private secretary to-day about the question, he is suggesting something which is absolutely false. I recited the question in detail.
indicated dissent.
Yes, and the Private Secretary asked me if I thought Mr. Speaker would allow the words " Black and Tan" to appear in the question. Yet the right hon. Gentleman gets up, and tells the House that I did not give notice. Mr. Speaker, in view of that fact, I think the Chief Secretary ought to withdraw the remark he made, which is absolutely untrue.
I have no remark to withdraw. I only received the question when I came to the House about 3.30.
Your private secretary got it at 11.30.
With the best will in the world, and with the usual courtesy that I try to show every hon. Member, I dropped a private note to the hon. and learned Gentleman, as I have said.
But in view of the previous answers which the Chief Secretary has given, we understand that he was responsible for all that occurred in Ireland. I therefore submit, and maintain, that the Chief Secretary is the one to whom the question should be addressed.
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is now in a position to state whether General Sir Nevil Macready is subject to the jurisdiction of the Chief Secretary for Ireland or not?
Really, I cannot add anything to what I said before. In theory under a system such as martial law the Chief Secretary is responsible. In reality the Cabinet is responsible for the Government of Ireland. The War Office is part of the Cabinet, and their policy is the same. The policy of the Cabinet will be carried out either by the War Office or by the Chief Secretary.
If the military were in France on active service who would be responsible to this House for the conduct of the military?
If the military were in France the Secretary of State for War alone would be responsible, but the military referred to are in Ireland.
But are they not on active service in Ireland?
I should like to ask the Leader of the House to whom questions about events in Ireland ought to be addressed: to the Chief Secretary or to the Secretary for War? The Chief Secretary claims, as he tells us, full responsibility.
An answer to that has been given by my right hon. Friend. He did not receive notice of to-day's question in sufficient time to allow an answer to be prepared. He is responsible to this House, and will answer for all acts committed in Ireland. But I think there is a difference between questions of status and things that are done.
That may be.
Murders, Cashel
{by Private Notice): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been called to the murder of James Luby and William Delany whilst in military company at Cashel, County Tipperary, and whether the murders were committed by the police or the military, and what action has been taken?
I also received notice of the question only at 3.30 to-day, and it is quite impossible to answer it in detail at twenty minutes' notice.
Seeing that the full details are given in all the newspapers, I should like to ask how it is that the Irish Office does not receive information about these murders?
Autumn Sessions
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether, by summoning Parliament early in the new year, by reducing the Recess at Easter, and by restricting that at Whitsuntide to a few days, the House will be able to rise before August and to do without an Autumn Session; and whether he is aware of the congestion in public offices and the need for greater leisure for civil servants in order to keep level with their work, and of the advantage which would result in no Autumn Session next year?
I sincerely hope that it may be possible to avoid an Autumn Session next year.
May I ask whether the surest way to avoid an Autumn Session is to introduce fewer Bills?
A surer way would be to introduce none.
Will my right hon. Friend get into communication with Members of the House, through the proper channels, to ascertain the desire of the House before doing anything?
It is really not necessary to get into touch with the House before anything has been decided. We shall avoid it if we can.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Prime Minister stated a few weeks ago that no Bills involving expenditure would be introduced next Session except on matters of extreme urgency?
Yes, Sir.
Foot-And-Mouth Disease
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture whether he can report progress on the experiments in this country for the treatment and prevention of foot-and-mouth disease; and whether inquiry is being made into the success which has attended new methods recently practised in Italy?
The Committee now investigating foot-and-mouth disease has not had sufficient time to make progress which would justify a report. The veterinary officers of the Ministry are aware of the attempts made in France, Italy and Switzerland to combat foot-and-mouth disease by serum treatment and vaccination. The results are not promising, however, owing to the fact that effective serum and vaccine cannot be produced until a method of artificially cultivating the virus has been discovered, and it is to this end that the Committee propose to devote most of their energies.
Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention not been called to this recent successful experiment in Italy, and will he call for a report as to these experiments, which are of most vital importance to the herds of this country?
I will call the attention of the Committee to the matter to which the hon. Gentleman refers.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give the farmers of the country any information as to the cause, and where the infection comes which causes these sporadic outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease?
I should be only too glad if I could, but that is the very point which this Committee is. investigating. To give partial information before we have their report would be, I think, only misleading.
Is it not a fact that 15 months ago the Board of Agriculture turned down the suggestion that they should make tests of the same kind that have now been made with such remarkable success?
I think we must wait for the report of the Committee.
Farrows Bank
Suspension of Payment
(by Private Notice) asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the suspension of payment on the part of Farrows Bank; whether he is aware that this will affect thousands of small working-class depositors; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
(by Private Notice) asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has any information as to the stoppage of Farrows Bank?
Yes, Sir; the probability of this suspension has been known to the Government for some little
time. From information available to the Board of Trade it is clear that the closing of Farrows Bank is due to losses in trading and errors in management extending over a series of years, and is not due to any causes of a general nature arising out of the circumstances of the present time. I deplore the widespread hardship which must be caused to depositors of small means, but I satisfied myself that the Government could not usefully or prudently take any steps to support the bank.
Does not experience of this kind convey the possibility to the Government of giving powers to municipalities in matters of working-class deposits, to remove from the ambit of ordinary exploitation the savings of working-class people?
I think it gives point to the demand for a definition of what is a bank.
Business of the House
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on the Housing (Scotland) Bill, Defence of the Realm (Acquisition of Land) Bill [Lords], Reports of the Committees of Supply and Ways and Means, the Air Navigation Bill [Lords'], Juries (Emergency Provisions) Bill [Lords'], and Administration of Justice Bill [Lords] be exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."— [Mr. Bonar Law.]
The House divided: Ayes, 182; Noes, 37.
Division No. 432.] AYES. [4.0 p.m. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's) Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Astor, Viscountess Butcher, Sir John George Farquharson, Major A. C. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Carr, W. Theodore Flannery, Sir James Fortescue Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Casey, T. W. Foxcroft. Captain Charles Talbot Balfour, George (Hampstead) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Fraser, Major Sir Keith Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.) Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Barnett, Major R. W. Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Gardiner, James Barnston, Major Harry Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge) Barrand, A. R. Coats, Sir Stuart George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Cobb, Sir Cyril Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Cohen, Major J. Brunel Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Bennett, Thomas Jewell Collins, Sir G. P. (Greenock) Glyn, Major Ralph Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Goff, Sir R. Park Betterton, Henry B. Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Bigland, Alfred Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Gritten, W. G. Howard Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Curzon, Commander Viscount Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Blake, Sir Francis Douglas Davidson, J. C. C.(Hemel Hempstead) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Davies, Major D. (Montgomery) Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W (Liv'p'I.W.D'by) Breese, Major Charles E. Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Hambro, Captain Angus Valdemar Bridgeman, William Clive Doyle, N. Grattan Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Hanna. George Boyle Bruton, Sir James Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B. Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M. Sturrock, J. Leng Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil) Morris, Richard Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Mosley, Oswald Sutherland, Sir William Higham, Charles Frederick Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Taylor, J. Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Murchison, C. K. Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham) Hinds, John Murray, John (Leeds, West) Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley) Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Murray, Major William (Dumfries) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Neal, Arthur Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Hopkins, John W. W. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Tryon, Major George Clement Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Waddington, R. Hurd, Percy A. Ormsby-Gore, Captain Hon. W. Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Parker, James Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) lllingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Pearce, Sir William Waring, Major Walter James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Warren, Lieut.-Col. Sir Alfred H. Jesson, C. Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Wason, John Cathcart Jodrell, Neville Paul Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Pratt, John William Williams, Lieut.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Purchase, H. G. Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Raper, A. Baldwin Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Remnant, Sir James Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Wise, Frederick Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tlngd'n) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Loseby, Captain C. E. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Yate, Colonel Charles Edward M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Yeo, Sir Alfred William McMicking, Major Gilbert Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Macquisten, F. A. Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Magnus, Sir Philip Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Lord E. Talbot and Captain Guest. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Stanton, Charles B.
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. F. D. Hirst, G. H. Rose, Frank H. Billing, Noel Pemberton- Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Royce, William Stapleton Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hogge, James Myles Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Briant, Frank Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Cape, Thomas Kenyon, Barnet Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R. Lawson, John J. Waterson, A. E. Devlin, Joseph Lunn, William White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Wignall, James Entwistle, Major C. F. Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Glanville, Harold James Myers, Thomas Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) O'Grady, Captain James TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Grundy, T. W. Raffan, Peter Wilson Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy and Mr. Mills. Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Redmond, Captain William Archer Hartshorn, Vernon Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
Bills Presented
Corn Sales Bill,
"to provide for the greater uniformity in the weights and measures used in the sale of corn and other crops, to amend the Corn Returns Act, 1882, and for purposes connected therewith," presented by Major DAVID DAVIES; supported by Sir Robert Thomas, Mr. Royce, Mr. Edward Wood, Major Howard, and Mr. Cautley; to be read a Second time upon "Wednesday, and to be printed. [Bill 275.]
Dentists Bill,
"to amend the Dentists Act, 1878, and the provisions of the Medical Act, 1886, amending that Act," presented by Dr. ADDISON; supported by Sir Hamar Greenwood and Mr. Munro; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 276.]
Telephone Charges
Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence, brought up, and read;
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 247.]
Message from the Lords
Government of Ireland Bill: That they agree with certain of the Commons Amendments to their Amendments and propose an Amendment to one of them; and they disagree with one of the Commons Amendments but propose Amendments in lieu thereof.
Government of Ireland Bill
Lords Amendment to Commons Amendment to Lords Amendment and Lords Amendments in lieu of Commons Amend- ment to Lords Amendment disagreed to by the Lords to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 277.]
Orders of the Day
Housing (Scotland) Bill
Order for consideration of Lords Amendments read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the Lords Amendments be now considered."
I beg to move "That the Debate be now adjourned."
When this Bill was in another place, Clause 1 was deleted. There are certain negotiations proceeding at the present moment which I hope very much may result in the re-insertion of the Clause with certain safeguards which are deemed desirable and which are now being discussed. In these circumstances I should propose, with the assent of the House, not to proceed with the discussion to-day, but to take the Amendments to-morrow. I hope that by that time the situation will have been entirely clarified, and that the prospects of the Bill reaching the Statute Book will not be imperilled.
I have had an opportunity of discussing this matter with my right hon Friend, and from what he has told me privately probably this is the better course to pursue, but I just want to place it on the records of the House that what we on this side of the House are mainly concerned about in the retention of this Clause is that there shall be no difference made in the datum line of rent. It may be that there are several subsidiary concessions that will be made, but we do not want to rule out the advantage of the additional facilities for housing by any rent limit, as in the English Bill. If my right hon. Friend can achieve that object before to-morrow, we shall be very grateful to him.
Question put, and agreed to.
Debate to be resumed to-morrow (Tuesday).
Defence of the Realm (Acquisition of Land) Bill [Lords]
As amended ( in the Standing Committee ), considered.
CLAUSE 3.—(Provision as to acquisition and possession of land under the principal Act.)
(2) A Government Department in possession of land under a lease or tenancy granted or created prior to the commencement of the present War shall have the like power of removing any building or other work which, for purposes connected with the present War, has been erected or constructed on, over, or under that land wholly or partly at the expense of the State as is conferred by Section two of the principal Act on an occupying Department, and this power shall be exercisable notwithstanding any provision of the lease or tenancy under which the land is held, or anything in paragraph (6) of the first proviso to Sub-section (1) of Section two of the principal Act.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words, "or anything in," and to insert instead thereof the word, " and."
This is the first of two Amendments which stand in my name and which I am moving in pursuance of an undertaking which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for the Grantham Division (Lieut.-Colonel Royds). I said that I would consider the point which he raised, and if possible bring up an Amendment dealing with it. Section (2) of the Act gives power to remove buildings and works which have been erected by the State on land which has been taken for the purposes of the War. In the case of leasehold premises where there may be a covenant by a landlord to allow the tenant to remove buildings which he may have put up, it might be that the tenant would get the advantage of a windfall from the State by having had a lot of buildings put up on his premises which were never contemplated when the agreement of tenancy was entered into, in respect of which the State has incurred considerable expense, and which certainly we never contemplated as likely to become the private property of the tenant. Section 2 of the principal Act says that where an ad hoc agreement has been made between the owner of land and a Government Department there shall be no actual right of the State to remove the buildings put up unless with the consent of the owner of the land. That provision was necessary because when the agreement was made ad hoc for the purpose of enabling the Government to put up buildings, it was quite likely that the owner of the land and the Department considered the point. Therefore, the consent of the person with whom the agreement was made was rightly an ingredient. I have put down these Amendments which will leave paragraph ( b ) of the first proviso to Sub-section ( l ) of Section 2 of the principal Act to apply to any ad hoc agreement. Therefore, I think the fears of my hon. and gallant Friend have been removed.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman has rightly said that he has put down these Amendments to meet an Amendment which I moved in Committee upstairs. I have listened to his explanation, and, although I do not thoroughly understand it, if the Amendments carry out what the right hon. "Gentleman states, they will certainly meet the case which I have in view. This Clause should not over-ride in any way a definite lease or agreement come to between a Government Department and any private individual or corporation. That being so, I think we might be satisfied with the Amendments.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made: At the end of Sub-section (2) add "shall not apply to any such provision."—[ Sir E. Pollock. ]
CLAUSE 6. (Easements.)
For the purposes of the principal Act and this Act, the exercise or enjoyment of any easement or right over or in relation to land shall be deemed to be possession of that easement or right.
I beg to move, after the word " of " [" For the purposes of the principal Act "], to insert the words " Sections 1, 2, 3, 10 and 13."
This Amendment again is in fulfilment of an undertaking which I made the hon. and learned Member for the Rushcliffe Division of Nottingham (Mr. Betterton), who asked me in some way to control or limit the rather wide words of Section 6. As I pointed out, these words were only intended to make plain that which apparently had not been found plain by certain skilled advisers. The point is that where a man is in possession of land which has to be dealt with it shall be dealt with with the easement which is attached thereto. There are certain cases where land has been drained, and we want to give the same power of drainage under the easement to a purchaser. We want to show that we are in possession of that easement.
In Committee I asked that some words should be inserted in this Clause to elucidate the meaning of this proposal, and I am very much obliged for a concession, which, in my opinion, clears up the matter.
I put down an Amendment to omit this Clause altogether. I think the words which have been suggested in this Amendment effect an improvement. Under this Clause any easement or temporary easement a Government Department may have is turned into a permanent easement with the right to sell it without reference to the owner. It is quite true that this Clause under the Amendment is only to remain in force for two years after the termination of the War. Is it quite clear that an owner has a right of appeal—and I want to know can he get compensation for this easement, if it is made a permanent one? At, the same time I should also like to remark that, although the War has terminated, this provision goes on for two years after the termination of the War, and we have nothing to show us how long that will be Can the right hon. Gentleman place a limit upon the time, and can he tell me if the owner suffers any damage in the way I have described, and has he any right of appeal?
I cannot agree that this is a drastic Clause at all. I should have thought it was purely an interpretation Clause for the purpose and use of real property lawyers. It certainly puts the easements which are now used in the possession of the Departments. It is quite impossible for me to say whether under these several Sections there are the powers which have been indicated, and the only effect of this Clause is to attach these easements to the possession. All this Clause says is that there shall be brought into the possession of the land this small right of easement as to drainage and the like.
rose —
The hon. and gallant Member has already exhausted his right to speak.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made: After the word "and" insert the words "for the purposes of."—[ Sir E. Pollock. ]
CLAUSE 7.—(Temporary continuation of existing bye-laws as to ranges.)
I beg to move to leave out the Clause.
This proposal is one to continue the emergency laws in addition to the very extensive powers already held by the military authorities under the existing Statute. I understand that these powers are required to deal with the question of public footpaths near rifle ranges and public safety because the War Office has not yet decided which ranges they will require. We have had a very elaborate scheme put forward for the reconstruction of the Territorial Army. We have decided which cavalry regiment shall remain, and the details of the organisation have been perfected and we know our military policy. Therefore it seems to me quite in-defensible that the War Office should still be holding land on which to build rifle ranges, which they may not require. All this means expense and it must mean upkeep of staffs, officials and instructors, as well as inconvenience to farmers and landowners. I think it is quite time the Government brought the War Office up with a round turn. It is about time the Government made up their minds in regard to this matter. Apart from any other question I think the importance of economy at this time is very great.
Although this Bill may not put any charge upon the Treasury, the War Office may come along with an additional Supplementary Estimate because we do not know their policy with regard to rifle ranges. I do not think the next war will be fought out with rifles, and therefore the War Office should be careful as to what they spend on rifle ranges, which must now be a very considerable item. It is true that aerial ranges are mentioned in this proposal, but I think those are all too few, and the land ranges all too many. I think it is time that the War Office was brought up with a jerk over this matter, and I hope the House will support me in refusing any extension of these powers. I submit that the War Office has been much too long in making up its mind. We must show them that we are not going to give unlimited time and money to be expended in this way, and I hope hon. Members who are economists or alleged economists will support me.
I beg leave to second the Amendment.
I think the hon. and gallant Member has been speaking under a misapprehension, for he seems to think that this proposal is directed to the question of holding land, and that the House should refuse an extension of those powers on account of the expenditure. That is not so, because we are holding the land under another power altogether, and all we are asking for now is an extension of our power to make regulations for the public safety. Many sets of by-laws had been made for the purpose of providing for the safe use of artillery and rifle ranges, and such of those regulations as are required permanently will be made under the ordinary law.
The ordinary law, however, takes such a long time before it comes into force, and it is thought desirable to have power to extend those by-laws to the end of the period for which we hold the land. That is all that this measure seeks to do, and anything further that is required will be done under the ordinary law. No expenditure at all is incurred under these proposals. The hon. and gallant Member referred to the question of selecting ranges, and that is another reason why the by-laws for safety are required. I may inform the hon. and gallant Member that a very large number of ranges have been given up. Under these circumstances I hope he will not press his Amendment.
The explanation which the right hon. Gentleman has just given is rather different to that which he gave on a previous occasion when this matter was raised by my hon. and gallant Friend. The objection raised before was the continuance of these agreements for an indefinite period of time. I take it from what the right hon. Gentleman has just said that these proposals only extend some of the regulations contemporaneously with the leases which the Government hold of the ranges, and that in any case they must hold those leases for another two years. I suppose that means that these ranges will be very largely reduced in number, and that a selection will be made as to the most appropriate to be used for rifle ranges. I think that probably meets the point raised by my hon. and gallant Friend.
I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."—[ Sir A. Williamson. ]
There was an Amendment moved in Committee which the Government refused, providing that the right of pre-emption should be given to a landowner whose land had been taken away from him, provided that the Government had built, or caused to be erected, any buildings on the land. There has been a little misconception with regard to the actual effect of this Bill. It was said by the Solicitor-General that there was nothing in this Bill which took away from the owner the right of pre-emption which existed under the principal Act of 1916. That may be so, but my Amendment on this point was not put down with the idea of extending an existing right, and I understood that the right of preemption under the old Act applied to land which had been taken for the purposes of the War by the Government, but upon which no buildings had been erected. If the land had been taken, and the building had been erected, the right of preemption was not there, and the owner was not able to buy back his land because the Government had erected a building upon it. An action was taken against the Government in the Courts of Law. The decision, as far as I remember it, was that the Government had no business to erect buildings on somebody else's land and then to take advantage of any increase of value to sell without giving the landowner a right of pre-emption. The Court decided that they were not justified in so doing. I am rather afraid that the effect of this Bill will be to set at nought that decision, and I should like an assurance from the learned Solicitor-General on the point. I may say I had intended to again move an Amendment which I moved in Committee in the hope that the House might give it more favourable consideration. Just now we are legislating rather in a hurry. It is almost impossible to get Amendments down. The first Order today was the Housing (Scotland) Bill, which I had expected would take some time, but consideration of it was suddenly deferred while I was preparing the Amendment, and, and that deprived me of my opportunity of getting it in. I do not blame anybody for that. This matter is one of considerable importance, and people not learned in the law have asked me to take the matter up. I shall be extremely obliged if I can get some information on the question whether or not, my Amendment not having been accepted, the decision of the Court of Law to which I have referred will be set at nought. Am I right in thinking that the Bill does nothing to preserve the right of preemption where it is taken away if the Government happens to erect buildings on the land?
I shall be very glad to do my best to answer my right hon. Friend. He will forgive me, perhaps, if I say I think he is by no means clear. I have so often failed to make myself clear to him that perhaps from parity of reasoning he will allow me this afternoon to return the compliment which he invariably pays to me; still, if I can see light through the fog I will endeavour to do so. First of all, he is absolutely wrong on one point. He seems to suggest that the right of pre-emption being taken away by this Bill has primarily something to do with the right of pre-emption of the original owner. That is not so. What we have contracted in this Bill is the right of preemption given by the original Act to adjoining owners. One might have a piece of land which belonged to A, and contiguous to it other pieces of land belonging to B, C, D, E, F, and G. It was found that if the right of pre-emption had to be given not only to A, but to the other six owners, it held up the matter for a very long time. What we have done is to take away the right of pre-emption of the adjoining owners. Now my right hon. Friend says we have interfered with the right of pre-emption of the original owner in a case where buildings have been erected on a piece of land. This is so to> this limited extent in cases where, by taking the land and altering its character completely by putting up a lot of buildings, it cannot really be said to be a part of the original estate or to maintain its. original character. In that case the right of pre-emption is lost. I have already stated that in Committee; but apparently I did not make myself clear to my right hon. Friend.
I quite understood that part of the learned Solicitor-General's statement where he referred to adjoining owners. On that point he made himself quite clear to me. I think it is right that adjoining owners should not have a right of pre-emption. What I want to insist upon is this, that where a Government Department has constructed in or over such land any building the Government Department should be compelled to offer to the person from whom the land was taken a right of pre-emption on the land and buildings.
That is provided for in the original Act. Let me read it—
" Before any Government Department sell any land so acquired or interest therein they shall, unless such land is land upon which buildings of a permanent nature have been erected wholly or partly at the expense of the State or at the expense of or by arrangement with any Government Department or is land used in connection with such buildings first offer to sell the same to the person entitled to the lands (if any) from which the same were originally severed."
The original Act four years ago cut down this right of pre-emption in cases where there had been permanent buildings erected wholly or partly at the expense of the State. What I understand my right hon. Friend wishes now to do is to amend the Act of 1916 by eliminating that power. But that power has been in operation for four years. This Bill was not introduced for the purpose of dealing with it, and I really see no reason why the Act of 1916 should be cut down in that way. The right of pre-emption is reserved except in cases where, as originally contemplated by the Act of 1916, the character of the property has been so altered as to make the right of pre-emption no longer one that ought to be insisted upon in favour of the original owner. I think my right hon. Friend and I now understand each other, and I hope we shall agree or agree to differ. The last point which the right hon. Gentleman suggested had reference to some action at law. I really know nothing about it. I do not know between whom the proceedings were, or before what court, and at the present moment I can give no information regarding them.
As I take it, my right hon. Friend quite understands the point put by the learned Solicitor-General. I will not deal with it. I may tell my right hon. Friend that we did have some doubt on the Committee whether this did not cut down the right of pre-emption of the owner, but we are assured that it does not do so. The Solicitor-General, as a matter of fact, accepted a proviso of mine expressly laying it down that nothing in the Sub-section should interfere with any right of pre-emption given by the original Act. The Government were not willing in Committee to cut down the original Act in the way suggested by my right hon. Friend.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Supply
Report [18th December.]
Resolutions reported,
Civil Services and Revenue Departments Supplementary Estimate, 1920–21
Class Vii
"1. That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £3,500,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Labour and Subordinate Departments, including the Contribution to the Unemployment Insurance Fund, and Repayments to Associations pursuant to Sections 85 and 106 of the National Insurance Act, 1911, and Sections 5 and 17 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920; Out-of-Work Donation and Expenditure in connection with the training of Demobilised Officers and of Non-Commissioned Officers and Men, and the Training of Women; and grants for Civil Liabilities and Reinstatement."
Unclassified Services
2. That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £500,010, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Transport, including sundry Charges in connection with Transportation Schemes, etc., under the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919, certain Repayable Advances under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, and Special Road Grants to relieve Unemployment.
3. That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,629,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Cost of certain Miscellaneous War Services."
First Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I do not see either the Minister of Labour or any Under-Secretary here, and as I want to raise a question on this Estimate, perhaps I ought to move the adjournment of the Debate until the Minister in charge of the Supplementary Estimates is here. It would seem absurd to raise the question in his absence, and I therefore ask leave to move, " That the Debate be now adjourned."
The hon. Member cannot do that. If he will continue his observations for one moment, I expect a Minister will be here.
I hope it is only a temporary absence. We had a very unsatisfactory discussion on this Estimate on Friday, and the matter, in my view, was left in a very unsatisfactory position. Several of us round about one o'clock spent three or four hours in attempting to extract information from the Government as to their policy for dealing with unemployment which we wanted to discuss. I have been reading over the Debate since, and I notice that my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Labour, practically assured the House that there would be a general Debate on unemployment on the Consolidated Fund Bill tomorrow. The difficulty with regard to that is this. On that Bill Members of the House are entitled to range all over the question of unemployment. There will be an academic discussion on the remedies for it, but it is not until the Debate is over that the Minister states on behalf of the Cabinet what they are going to do with regard to it. I want to ask whether in the Appropriation Debate tomorrow the Minister of Labour is going to outline the policy of the Government at the beginning of the discussion. If I can be told that, it will do much to shorten my speech.
I understand that the Minister does propose to make such a statement to-morrow. Had I been enabled to give an answer to a question on to-day's Paper which was not reached,. I think it would have given some indication of policy, and to-morrow morning there will be in the Vote Office a printed document ready for circulation, which will disclose a portion of the position. It was impossible to have it ready to-day.
Of course, that does make a considerable difference. The situation is so acute that it will be futile to have a discussion of a general type on the Appropriation Bill without having in front of us, before we begin, what the Government suggest. I would rather use any time that I have on the Appropriation Bill in either criticism or suggestion with regard to the proposals made by the Government than take part in a Debate, such as we have often had in this House, into the causes of and remedies for general unemployment. We cannot do that in face of the immediate situation. We are up against facts which must be dealt with straight away. While the general question of unemployment could be dealt with by a great many remedies, had we time to put them in force over a period of years, we cannot do that now, and therefore we must get to practical issues. In the circumstances, I do not propose to make the remarks that I had intended to make on this matter, but I wanted to be quite clear about it first.
I will now confine myself to two points which, I think, must be dealt with before we agree to the Report stage of this Vote, with reference to the contribution to the Unemployment Insurance Fund. I am very anxious about that, particularly in view of what the Minister of Labour said in the Debate on Saturday. He was asked several times about a point with which we are all familiar, namely, that very many people cannot qualify for unemployment benefit because, before they can qualify, they must have paid four weeks' contributions, and then they are only entitled to eight weeks' unemployment benefit at the rate of 15s. per week for a man, and 12s. for a woman. That, obviously, is an inadequate provision, and the seriousness of the matter lies in the fact that the number of people concerned has risen from 4,000,000 under the original Act to 12,000,000 under this Act. If you associate with those 12,000,000 individuals the families whom they represent, it is a very large slice of the total population of the country. The Minister said, in reply to the questions which were put to him: parently the Cabinet Committee which deals with unemployment had not come to any decision on this matter. That is a kind of question to which we ought to have an answer to-day. The Parliamentary Secretary ought to be able to tell us whether unemployment is to be relieved by making this contribution of £1,365,000, which is put down in the Estimate, much mere elastic than it is at die present moment, because, in any event, that method of dealing with the situation has the merit of being continuous and not spasmodic. People receive that amount of money from week to week, and it is better, in my opinion, if you are going to help unemployment at all, that you should help a certain number of people all the time, than that you should help all the people for a certain amount of time. Anyone who is acquainted with the question of decasualisation of labour in connection with the unemployed problem, will agree that that has been found by experience to be true.
My second point is, that I am not yet content with regard to what has been said under sub-head J. This only continues the out-of-work donation to ex-Service men to a fixed date, namely, the last day of the financial year. There must not be a hiatus, but all the assurance we have had so far from the Ministry is that these men will be assisted to whatever extent is required. That is a Very loose statement, and one which I am sure the Government would rather interpret for themselves than have it interpreted for them by us. I cannot help again emphasising the fact that the out-of-work donation, in the case of the ex-Service man, was not so much a donation to him in respect of unemployment, as an attempt to meet the pledge given to him that work would be found for him when he came back. That is a very different thing. I may be wrong, and if so I shall be glad to be told why, but these men were promised reinstatement in work, and, that being found impossible, the difficulty was met by a temporary out-of-work donation. I am sure, however, that my hon. Friend will agree with me that, although he regrets it, he does not anticipate that by the 31st of March any substantial reduction will have taken place in the number of those men. I think we are right about that, and that there will still be something like 250,000 men for whom provision will have to be made. These men are not unemployed in the regular sense, because for five years they were deprived of the opportunity of competing for work in the ordinary market. When they returned to the ordinary market, they found it impossible to enter into that kind of competition, and I shall be glad to know, before we agree to the Report stage, that that point also has been considered. If my hon. Friend can tell us something about these two points which I have mentioned, it will be a great convenience to me and to others on this side of the House from the point of view of to-morrow's Debate, because, as I have said, I would far rather debate to-morrow the actual facts of the situation with regard to meeting distress, than that we should have what I call an academic Debate on unemployment.
I do not find anything put down in this Estimate for administration expenses. The new Act must have cost something to bring into operation, and I should like to know whether the administration expenses are included in the £1,365,000. It appears to me as though the whole of that sum had gone in benefits, because, if you work it out, it represents 2d. for 8,000,000 more insured persons for 21 weeks. I rather think that my hon. Friend will tell us that the administration expenses are not included in that sum, but are included in the £515,000 which appears at the bottom of the page. Hon. Members will see that that £515,000 is treated as a saving; it is deducted from the expense to the Exchequer. If the administration expenses have to come out of it, I do not think that it ought to have been deducted as a saving to the Exchequer, because they represent an expense to the State. As hon. Members will be aware, one-tenth of the whole Unemployment Fund is allowed to go in administration expenses, and the State pays one-fifth into that Fund. One-fifth of £515,000 is about £100,000, so that really you are including, in this figure which is deducted from the total expenditure as showing a saving, £100,000 of State money. If that is so, I do not think the Estimate ought to be presented to us in this form, which attempts to show that there is a total saving of £515,000 on the whole Vote, when £100,000 of that is really paid by the State.
With regard to Item J ( Out-of-work Donation — H.M. Forces and Merchant Seamen), the original Estimate for this was £5,500,000, but the new Estimate is £11,620,000, that is to say, there is an increase of £6,120,000, and the foot-note states that the extension from the 8th November, 1920, to the 31st March, 1921, will amount to no less than £4,270,000. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) asked the Parliamentary Secretary whether he did not think that, by the 31st March, practically the same number of ex-service men would still be out of employment, and I gathered, from what I saw of the Parliamentary Secretary's demeanour, that he agreed with the hon. Member for East Edinburgh that probably that will be so. I think that is quite right, and, what is more, I think that there will probably be the same number out of employment as long-as we continue these doles. I am going to say something which I believe the vast majority of sensible people in this country, and also of the Members of this House, feel, although they have not the courage to say it, and that is that you could not have a worse thing for these men than this demoralising system of giving them doles for doing nothing. There are large numbers of men who have served in the Army and as merchant seamen who could get work if they chose, and they do not choose, because they prefer to do nothing and obtain the dole which is given to them by the Government. The longer this dole goes on, and the more accustomed they become to wandering about—like the two men who were convicted of murder the other day at Eastbourne—at seaside places, doing nothing except drinking beer at inns and making acquaintance with women whom they happen to meet, the more disinclined will they be, quite naturally, to take up hard work and go regularly at it from morning till night.
5.0 P.M.
One of the reasons why employment is scarce is that it does not pay employers to give the enormous wages that people expect. There are plenty of people who would be prepared to employ men if they would take rather lower wages. What is the result? These men are getting, I am not quite sure of the exact figure, but enough to live upon, and they prefer that to taking a lower wage and working. It is certain that there will not be any im- provement in the market for employment as long as these wages are maintained. It is no use trade unionists saying that they are not going to take less; it is no use their saying that they are going to strike. The money is not in the country, and if you cannot make an article and resell it at a profit, it will be impossible for the person who provides the capital to make the article to employ people. It is probably an unpopular thing to say, but you have to look unpopularity in the face, and to be prepared to meet the consequences of the great mistake which the Government made in ever giving this unemploy-men dole at all. What they ought to have done was to have given a certain amount of money in a lump sum down, and to have said that, that having been done, the men must look out for themselves. It is the only way to make people find work. As long as they are certain that they can get a sum of money which is enough to keep body and soul together, a very large number of people—I do not say all—probably in every rank of life, will not work. I remember being told as a boy that the very worst thing that could happen to a man in more or less the same social position as myself was that his father should leave him £500 a year, because the result of that would be, especially if he had been at a public school or a university and belonged to a good club, that he would live on that £500 a year, go to his club and play billiards, and do nothing all his life. I am thinking of a dear, clever friend of mine whose life has practically been wasted because he had a competency. If he had not had that competency he would probably have become a useful member of the State and made a name for himself. It is the same in every walk of life. I leave out for the moment any question of whether we can afford to go on giving away £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 every two or three months for nothing. The right hon. Gentleman will no doubt be received with cheers as long as he goes on giving away other people's money. As was said in a letter to " The Times " to-day, it is very easy for A to give B's money to C, especially if A gains some popularity and some advantage by doing so, and, of course, the right hon. Gentleman by giving B's money to C gains popularity and makes himself certain of being re-elected for the Northern Division of Camberwell. I am not regretting it from the point of view of having the right hon. Gentleman in the House. I am thinking at present, not of the money, but of the effect upon the national character of encouraging men to do nothing. This has got to stop, and the sooner someone has the courage to say more effectively what I have been trying inefficiently to say, the better it will be for the men themselves, whose interest I have at heart, and for the country.
I cannot help feeling that it is rather a regrettable fact that we are discussing a Supplementary Estimate dealing with unemployment doles, and we are promised an unemployment Debate to-morrow. It would be much better and it would be an economy in the time of the House if we could have discussed the whole question to-day. We are dealing to-day with a Supplementary Estimate for the training of demobilised officers and non-commissioned officers and men, and in view of the fact that the Government, through the Ministry of Labour, has been negotiating for the last 18 months with the building trades for the training of dilutees, it is very unfortunate that the Minister has not made a statement to-day so that we might have thrashed the subject out in all its bearings. The House would have spent its time to advantage if we had been able to do that to-day. Instead of that we pass this Vote, now knowing whether or not we shall have before us another Supplementary Estimate at a later date in this financial year. If the Minister of Labour to-morrow foreshadows a programme of training men, such as we read in the Press, it is certain that you must vote more money for that purpose, and it is a pity that we are voting a Supplementary Estimate to-day contemplating that we must have another Supplementary Estimate in the near future. There is another aspect to this question to which I should like to call attention. We have spent a lot of time in dealing with unemployment benefit, yet Boards of Guardians are to-day supplementing unemployment benefit and the labours of this House by granting sums of money to able-bodied men in several districts because they are unemployed. I should like to have heard from the Minister of Labour what his view is on the question. I know it does not come within the pur- view of the Ministry of Labour. It is more a question for the Ministry of Health. But if certain Boards of Guardians are going to vote large sums of money for unemployment benefit, they are getting behind the decision of the House to grant certain sums of money under the Bill which we have passed. But there is another evil associated with this policy of Boards of Guardians. If one district can vote large sums of money for unemployment benefit to able-bodied men, it is a direct encouragement to every district to do the same.
That matter hardly arises on the Supplementary Estimate. If the hon. Member will look at it, he will see that it is for demobilised officers, non-commissioned officers and men.
I appreciate that and I realise the difficulties. Nevertheless it cannot be denied that this unemployed question is a very broad question, and it is a regrettable fact that we are limited in the discussion of it by the way it is presented. The Minister of Labour is negotiating at one moment for the purpose of giving employment to ex-soldiers and unemployed people, and the negotiations, and the decision which is arrived at, must have a direct bearing upon the money we are voting away to-day. It is a misfortune that this House should be called upon to vote to-day this sum of money, well knowing that we have not before us all the facts and that we are voting a sum of money which is totally inadequate to deal with the question, and I should have liked to have from the Minister of Labour some information which would have enabled us to deal with the question in all its bearings. I realise that, in view of the Rules that govern our discussions, we are limited in what we are permitted to say to-day, but I hope before we vote this money the Minister will give us some information which will assist us in sanctioning this Vote and enable us to vote the money without stretching our conscience to a degree that we do not feel justified in doing.
The right hon. Gentleman who opened the discussion said something with which we must all be in full sympathy and agreement, that it was very much better for a certain number of men to secure employment all the time than for a larger number of men to be kept in employment for only a portion of the time. That, in fact, is the difference between a palliative and a solution, and I would most strongly urge the Minister of Labour that he in his turn should demand from all sections of the community that they should open the door to all ex-service men, and it is the ex-service men who are the bulk of the present men who are unemployed who are capable of employment in their particular profession or industry. If we do not secure this, these out-of-work doles and road-making and other such things, which are largely unnecessary, will only be palliatives and are not a solution, and it is essential that these men, who, through no fault of their own, have been precluded either from passing examinations or going through courses of apprenticeship or undertaking similar qualifying duties, should not be debarred from earning a living and from securing employment by reason of the fact that they were fighting for their country overseas. They are the people I am specially dealing with because the unemployed problem which we have to-day is very different from the unemployed problem which we have had in previous years. The unemployed in previous years were largely unemployable. At present there is a large number of young, active men who have never been out of employment in their lives before, but have been serving their country, most of them very decent, respectable fellows, for whom this is a new experience. It is a matter of supreme urgency, before we vote this money for unemployed ex-service men, that we should press upon the Ministry the urgent necessity for really securing permanent employment for these men, and not merely the payment of doles or putting them on to road work, which is only a palliative. It is sometimes thought that the middle classes and the professional classes are asking trade unions to do something which they themselves have not been prepared to do, but that is not so, because in the case of the Bar and solicitors, ex-officers were admitted without passing the usual qualifying examinations, and there is quite as much danger of unemployment in those professions as there is in the trade unions.
The main thing which will secure employment, and which I would ask the Minister to devote his attention to, as I know he has been doing recently, is a thing which the country is crying out for, and that is the building of houses. That is not a palliative, but a solution. We are told, as I understand it, by the building trade unions that if they admit these 50,000 men for whom the Government is asking—and that, in my opinion, is an all too small number—they will run the risk of unemployment in that industry when the present large demand for houses is at an end. Even if that were the case, I would say to the building trade unions, " Surely you are prepared to run the same risks the other classes of the community are running. Surely you are going to let these fellows have the same chance as you yourselves have—the men who have been fighting overseas." The M.A. degree is a matter of qualification for particular scales of salary in education and teaching and so on, and yet these men have been admitted to get their degrees without a qualifying examination. Even if they were running a risk of unemployment when the present demand for houses is at an end, I would still say to them as Britishers when we are wanting all classes to pull together, " You will not want to be in a better position than these fellows who have done a great deal for all of us, and who are unable to qualify to pass your regulations through no fault of their own." But that is not so. The building industry is 65,000 skilled men below what it was in 1914. Therefore in admitting these men to the building industry they are practically running no risks. And in 1914 there was a tremendous shortage of building owing to the Finance Act of that year and other causes, so that they are nearly 100,000 below their normal number. The thing that the Ministry of Labour must insist upon is to get these men admitted into the building industry, where for years and years they can secure permanent employment rather than these palliatives, which are no solution of the undoubted hardships which are to be seen among us to-day.
I recognise that the limits of the discussion on the subject are very great, and I have no desire in any way to anticipate to-morrow's Debate, but I do want to make one or two suggestions regarding the conditions under which this unemployment allow- ance should be paid to discharged and demobilised men who have come from the Forces and also from the Mercantile Marine. I do not very often agree with the views regarding labour expressed by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London, but I entirely agree with his suggestion that it is a very demoralising thing to continue the payment of this unemployment dole without extracting in return some service from the men to whom it is paid. May I make it perfectly clear that the whole weight of what I may call responsible Labour opinion in this country is very much opposed to the continuance of the payment of the dole on these lines? We are satisfied that, great as is the danger to the State through the continuance of such a policy, the danger to Labour itself is even greater. The hon. Member who has just spoken (Sir W. Davison) indicated that this was a question of trade-union policy in the absorption of these men at the earliest possible moment, with the consequent discontinuance of the dole. I hope that we shall not confuse the issue, because it is necessary to remember what has happened in connection with efforts to solve this problem.
Training was restricted originally almost entirely to disabled men. It was then extended to the demobilised, and the particular principle which is followed in connection with any scheme of trade is that the men should be passed by local technical advisory committees, representing employers on the one side and workers on the other, and that men should not be afforded training or entered for training, when discharged or demobilised, unless that representative body is satisfied that they will find remunerative employment in the industry for which they are trained. There can be no doubt that that is a perfectly wise provision. If we train men for industry indiscriminately, we only aggravate the unemployment problem in this country in the near future, and we are conferring a very serious disadvantage upon the discharged and the demobilised men by holding out prospects to them which cannot possibly be realised in the present state of industry and commerce.
The suggestions which I have to make are two. As regards the discharged and demobilised men and the unemployment donation we agree, and we most strenuously emphasise that it is bad policy and thoroughly bad business to go on paying this unemployment dole. If we could set up machinery for absorbing these men into trades, that seems to me to be the first step that we should take. I would bring the very strongest pressure to bear, if I had any influence at all, upon both employers and trade unions to give every facility for the training and employment of these men, and my right hon. Friend would very greatly assist in that task if he would try to place at the disposal of employers and employed more facts regarding the industries in which it is proposed to train men than are supplied to both sides at the present time. Why do these men continue to draw unemployment donation, and why do both employers and employed, for it applies to both sides, hesitate to train them? We find on all sides this argument, that they do not believe that the state of industry in this country is capable of carrying that number of men. That springs from a more or less complete ignorance of the state of affairs in Europe and the possible demand for the commodity and the one hundred and one other conditions affecting industry which these people should know, and which, if they knew, would enable them to embark upon the training of these men much more readily than they do to-day.
My second suggestion is, and I believe it is one of practical application, that where discharged and demobilised men are trained, if we cannot get these men immediately absorbed or immediately ready for training, do not let us pay this money per week without some service or some appropriate return on their part. Quite recently in different parts of the country we have pleaded for an extension of the general subjects classes applied to discharged men to give them something to do until they can be passed definitely for the processes of industry in which they are going to be trained. At the present time they are allowed this weekly sum and they pass on to the streets with, very often, the tragic results to which reference was made by the right hon. Member for the City. That is a deplorable state of affairs. Here we have an immediate proposal, and we have pressed it already upon the Ministry of Labour. These men could be taken for the time being with very little cost to the State—indeed, it would be a real gain to the State at no distant date— into these general subjects classes. They could be kept in those classes, which are now being run with success in many localities, until the industry for which they are regarded as suitable said that they could take them for the purpose of definite industrial training. If they were taken into these classes, they would be relieved from the idleness of the street corner and from the possible tendency to develop criminal and other habits. Their training would be raised to the point in many cases of enabling them to take advantage of the industrial provision made.
Many employers and the best trade unions have found that when men have come to them from the forces, having enlisted with little or no education, or with an incomplete education, they are quite incapable of being trained in even ordinary industries in this country. They would be capable of much more ready training if they had a preliminary training in the general subjects classes. Here are two practical suggestions. The classes are to some extent in operation, and the expense to the local education authority or the State would not be considerable. We should have a definite return from the discharged or demobilised unemployed man, and he would have an environment which would be giving him a training from week to week. He would be taken away from habits of idleness and prepared for the industrial or commercial employment in which we all hope to see him at the earliest possible moment. I submit that this is a constructive programme. We on this side are altogether opposed to the continuance of the dole on the present basis, because it is demoralising to the man, demoralising to labour, and demoralising to the State itself.
I will deal first with the two very interesting points raised by the last speaker. I understand that he desires that we should, as far as possible, endeavour to get all able-bodied ex-service men into training, or to reduce the large mass of 250,000 men by taking them into training for definite trades. My answer is that it is no good training a man for avenues of trades unless those avenues of trade are open. You cannot train for a trade where there is no opportunity for employment after training. There is great opportunity in the building trade, but I do not want to labour that point now. It has been made by the hon. Member for Kensington (Sir W. Davison). I hope that it will be possible for the Minister when he starts the proceedings to-morrow to make a full statement on the subject and to deal with the negotiations with the building trade. If I had answered Question 85 to-day, and if I had been asked anything further, I should have been able to state that the exact proposals of the Government are being printed and that it is hoped that they may be in the Vote Office as soon as possible. I am not certain whether they will be there in time for to-morrow's Debate, but I think they are in the course of going to press at the moment. We want to get these men into training, and we are pressing on as fast and as energetically as we can where we see a real opportunity for employment, namely, the building trade. With respect to the very interesting suggestion about the men who are receiving the unemployment donation, the hon. Member says that we are paying something for which there is no return, and he asks whether it would not be better to get some return from the men who are in receipt even of the small sum of 20s. With regard to that I should like, and I am sure my right hon. Friend would like, to consider the suggestion further. I see great possibilities in the suggestion, but without consideration it is impossible to give any undertaking now. We will give it our very sympathetic consideration. There are difficulties in the way, difficulties of accommodation, difficulties in instructional plant, and so on; but if anything can be done along those lines I am sure it would be a good move.
I will reply now to the points made by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge). He asked whether the Debate to-morrow would be opened by the Minister. My right hon. Friend desires me to say that if that is the desire of the House he is quite prepared to take that course. As to the question about the building trade, I have already dealt with that. With regard to the four weeks' contribution I am not giving any pledges as to what course the Government propose to take, because my right hon. Friend will deal with that fully to-morrow. It would be desirable from every point of view to wait for the whole statement rather than to have it piecemeal.
Is that because no decision will be come to?
No.
If no decision has been come to I could understand it, but we are being asked to vote this money, and the Appropriation Bill is not the occasion on which we can stop it if we want to stop it. This is the occasion, and if the Minister or my hon. Friend has anything to say about it this is the time to say it in accordance with the traditions of Parliament.
We are governed by certain Rules of Procedure which we have to obey. If there had been a general discussion on the position in regard to these two items the statement I made on Saturday would have been very different. I could not cover the ground generally. That being so, I think it is very much better that a general statement should be made to-morrow rather than to have the statement in fragments thrown out at different times.
When you cannot go into the Division Lobby.
A further point was raised about the status of ex-service men at the end of March. Nobody can say exactly what the position will be at the end of March. We hope that the position as to unemployment and the conditions of trade generally, which is the main factor, will have improved at that time. But if at the end of March there is still a large number of ex-service men out of work as is possible, the matter will then have to be considered from the point of view of the Unemployment Insurance Act. In other words, we shall have to consider if it is possible to bring all ex-service men then out of work into the ordinary position of, and deal with them as civilians. That is, to get rid of the distinction which is operating at present between ordinary citizens and ex-service men, and to put the latter in the same position from the point of view of employment generally, and of - the remedies against unemployment as the ordinary civilian population.
If that is so, then on 31st March those poor ex-service men will come under the working of the Unemployment Insurance Act under which they will not be able to draw any money until they have put in four weeks' work, and then only eight weeks inside the year of employment?
When the difficulty arises, it will have to be met. It is conceivable that a very large number of these men may be employed by that time, but if they are not provision will have to be considered. In reference to the point raised by the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson), I have not had the opportunity of consulting my advisers on the subject, but the procedure adopted has been under the Act, and it is in accordance with that that the sum which is appropriated in aid is increased. The numbers coming under the Insurance Act are larger, and the appropriation in aid is therefore greater. That is perfectly sound finance. The right hon. Member for the City of London described in strong language what he considers the evils of the system of unemployment donations, and the same point was made by the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham). I have great sympathy with the point of view that donations without work are an unsatisfactory way of dealing with the matter. What we would all like to see is satisfactory remunerative work. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that the men do not want to work.
Some of them.
I have visited a large number of these centres where ex-service men are out of work, and my experience is' that the cry for work is a genuine cry. They are men who do not want donations. They want work. It was suggested in certain areas that these ex-service men were not quite what they represented themselves to be and were not very seriously ex-service men. We had lists examined in certain specified areas. We found one V.C. among them, we had men with a large number of decorations, and 80 per cent. of them had served overseas, and, so far from there being any question of their not being genuine cases of ex-service men out of work, the evidence was quite the other way. If that is the suggestion, I think it is unfortunate, and it is not our point of view at all. All our evidence is that these men do want work, and it is one of the tragedies of the situation that work is not forthcoming.
I said some of them. I know instances where that occurred. I know a case a few days ago in which a man tried to get men to do some work. There were plenty of ex-service men out of work and they would not take it.
At what wages>?
I think it is only a small number.
They ought to take what they can get.
If it is suggested that they should take less than the standard wage, I think there is another answer to my right hon. Friend. I cannot go into the question of the money expended by the Guardians which was referred to by the hon. Member for Paddington. That is not a matter with which we can deal in this Debate. I have dealt sufficiently with the point with regard to the building trade referred to by the hon. Member for Kensington. The Government proposals are being printed, and I hope will be in the hands of Members very soon.
The hon. Gentleman will remember that the Minister stated last Wednesday that the matter was to be brought to a final issue to-day. I presume that there are not any further negotiations, and that the House will be told definitely how these men are going to be employed either through the building union or by the representatives of the Government themselves?
I do not prejudge the matter, but I hope my right hon. Friend will give all the information. With regard to the question of merchant seamen referred to by the hon. Member for Hull, they have the sympathy of all. Their bravery was beyond all praise. It was therefore arranged that they should be brought within the scope of the donation, and they were given the provision of this extension. There was a difference between the men in the Merchant Service who signed on under agreement with the Admiralty—I think it is called Under Admiralty Articles—and certain others who were doing patrol work and so forth who were not under Admiralty Articles. For instance, in the case of small vessels in the Mercantile Marine handed over, doing patrol work, but remaining in the ordinary Mercantile Marine, in certain cases the seamen were not under agreement for the full period of the War, and did not take the same risk as men who signed on under the Admiralty scheme for the full period of the War. Men under the Admiralty scheme coming on donation now will receive the full 29s., but men in the ordinary Merchant Service would come on the out-of-work donation on the 20s. rate, that arrangement having been made at the time of the extension. It is not the full 29s., but it is better than the 15s.
Does that apply to fishermen who were employed at the request of the Admiralty in fishing during the War?
The Regulations are somewhat elaborate. As far as my memory carries me, fishermen are included, provided they have three months' service, but I am not quite certain, and I will send my hon. and gallant Friend the Regulations with the fullest explanation I can. There was a further point about Ireland. Those who are unfortunately out of work in Ireland as a result of the tragedies there will have available the ordinary arrangements for out-of-work donation and unemployment insurance benefit. I think that I have now dealt with all the points, but before sitting down I again thank the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham) for his suggestion.
I am sorry that the Government should take this opportunity of raising the whole of the labour question instead of postponing it until tomorrow. Quite a number of us have been driven by the Government action during the last six months into a very individious position. I am one of those who have opposed in this House on every occasion when it was raised the payment of unemployment doles. I honestly think the trades unions themselves, and a great many workmen throughout the country and quite a number of the Labour party in this House, object equally to any form of dole or charity to deal with the labour position. The Government's reckless, ill-considered, half-baked schemes have driven industry into such a condition that we are now faced with a vast army of unemployed ex-service men, and other men, and we have this position, that unless we support the Government by agreeing against our principles, and against our frequently announced decision to finance them in their present scheme of unemployment pay, we may be creating a very serious position in the country, and what is even more serious— because I do not think that any man who has any respect for his political principles ought to be driven by a crisis into making rapid and ill-considered decisions—there are men in this country with their wives and children who are practically starving.
The House ought to take the opportunity on a Vote of this description of bringing the Government to task for the causes which have led it to come to this House and ask for further money. For two years the Government have flirted with trade unions on the question of building operatives. I happen to have some experience of the result of these flirtations, and even now, after two years, during which we have been urging on the Government the necessity of building on an extensive scale, they are still approaching in a very humble manner the various building trade unions to know whether they will agree to some sort of scheme. I believe in trade unionism. There are many who hear me speaking of trade unionism who do not think that that could possibly be so, but I am a believer in those who have a common cause uniting for the purpose. None the less, it is possible to abuse even a good principle, and I hold that the building operatives' unions have abused the exceptional position they hold to-day. The buiding trade is the only trade in England which is not experiencing a severe slump. Some are of opinion that the slump will come, and for the purpose of insuring against that and ensuring work, they are refusing to allow any dilution whatsoever, or rather any further dilution.
I cannot allow discussion to range in the direction of the dilution of the building trade. That does not come under this Vote, and discussion of it would be out of Order.
I understood that in the reply for the Government a short reference was made to the question, and therefore I proposed to refer to it briefly. There is no necessity for me to pursue the subject at length. This House is aware of the actual condition that exists, and I respectfully submit that, were the subject given some further consideration, a great deal of the money which will be spent under this Vote would not be needed. The evening papers contain a full account of the offers which the Government are to make. Surely the Government in the last two years might have anticipated the present condition of unemployment, for their own legislative measures have created it in the main. They have stifled enterprise by endeavouring in a year to do what any sensible body of men would certainly have postponed or dealt with more gradually; they have endeavoured to pay in a few years for a War that practically exhausted the resources of this country, and they have absorbed capital which would otherwise have been used to develop industry. There are industries to-day which would employ thousands of men on the production of goods for export, but they are not producing anything because of the risks of export due to the general instability of the financial conditions in other countries. They will not take the risk unless they get a profit commensurate with the gambling chance they take. The present position is that if a business loses money it bears the brunt of the loss, but if the business is successful the Government take the major portion of the profit. That is one serious reason for unemployment, and yet all that the Government seem able to bring forward are schemes, not for the creation of employment, but either sops to Labour votes or a form of gift to buy off industrial disturbance. It will not buy it off for ever. There is a limit to the amount of money which this country can afford to distribute among workmen who do not contribute anything in return. Why I am so vexed is that I find myself obliged to support a proposition which is against my belief, and that the Government by their own stupidity have created this extraordinary position. When the Government deal with this matter to-morrow I hope we shall have from the Prime Minister something more than another programme of procrastination. If it is necessary to deal firmly with the trade unions, I trust the Government will act accordingly, having always in mind the fact that a man cannot go on drawing the weekly dole and give nothing in exchange without losing his self-respect.
I make this proposition to the Labour party. I am pressing the Prime Minister to deal with the question of the privations and the lack of food throughout the country, for the next month particularly, and I ask the Ministry of Labour to give their support, provided the Prime Minister is prepared, to the distribution among the Labour Exchanges of the food which at present is lying in vast Army dumps throughout the country, food which is held by the Minister of Food and in many cases is rotting and decaying. If it could be distributed during the next two or three days to the Labour Exchanges, I am certain that the trade unions and ex-service men's associations and the various friendly societies would do all in their power to see that the food was delivered in homes where it was wanted. It is a practical suggestion. The Ministry of Labour could help enormously, and for the first time it might justify to some extent the expense of the Labour Exchanges. I trust that the Ministry of Labour will give the proposal their whole-hearted support. It is a terrible thing to think that, while people are starving, these vast quantities of food are rotting in stacks throughout England. There is available practically every form of food which will be wanted during the next few months, and the distribution of it would be a work of real social value. If this Vote goes to a Division I shall support it against every one of my political and social beliefs, and that is the position into which the Government have driven me. It is a Gilbertian position that we should have to go into the Lobbies to support the things in which we do not believe. The Prime Minister has said that he would make a new heaven out of the old earth. All I can say is, that he has made a hell of a mess of it.
Question put, and agreed to.
Second Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
The House is entitled to some explanation of this Vote in view of the fact that the matter was dealt with without discussion on the Committee stage. We are asking for a sum of £500,000 and a. further sum of £10. We arrive at that in this way: We are inviting the House to sanction loans to local authorities, of which we expect to expend during the present year a sum of £1,000,000, and we are bringing to the notice of the House an arrangement arrived at between the Minister of Transport and the Exchequer for certain financial assistance from the Exchequer, which will not materialise in the current financial year, but in order that the House may be fully informed of the fact we have put down a nominal sum of £10. These sums together make £1,000,010. I think the House will be glad to know that we can put against that a real saving of £500,000 upon our original Estimate. In the original Estimate there was included a sum of £1,000,000 in respect of development schemes, but in these days, when it is so imperative that all possible economies should be effected, it has been found possible to avoid expending sums of money, and we are able quite safely to bring an Appropriation-in-Aid of about £500,000 and to ask the House only for the smaller figure of £500,000 and the nominal sum of £10. The schemes in connection with arterial roads has been estimated by the Government, as well as can be estimated in a matter of this kind, at an expenditure of something over £10,000,000. We are providing in one way or another for an expenditure of £10,400,000, as to half of it by way of definite grants to local authorities and as to the other half by way of loans to the local authorities, if they desire them. It is in respect of the loans that we are inviting the House to grant us the £1,000,000. As to the other half, we are able to finance it in a way which I will indicate.
6.0 P.M.
Up to the end of this year there has been in existence a fund known as the Road Improvement Grant, which was established under the Act of 1909–10, and out of that fund the Ministry of Transport had provisionally earmarked a sum of £500,000 for expenditure upon arterial roads in the current year. From the beginning of January there will come into operation the new motor taxation, which is estimated to produce about £9,000,000 gross and a little over £8,000,000 net, and a certain portion of it was to be devoted to the purpose of making new roads. Of that sum we had intended to apply £1,000,000 in the financial year 1921–22 and £1,250,000 in each of the two succeeding financial years. Adding together those four sums we arrive at the total of £4,000,000 which we may have available by March, 1924. It has been thought right, and I trust that the House will consider that it is not an imprudent thing to do, to anticipate the making of these arterial roads. It is not a wasteful anticipation, because the sooner you can get your roads made and available for public use the greater is the advantage to the public. Therefore although we are anticipating, or may to have to anticipate, our expenditure on these arterial roads up to the end of the financial year ending March, 31st, 1924, we are not really incurring any national loss by so doing, and there may be some advantages to be found in this circumstance. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has seen his way to authorise us to submit to the House the proposal which I now do, namely, that in respect of this expenditure of £4,000,000 as it arises he will contribute from the National Exchequer at the rate of 30 per cent. That will amount to a sum of £1,200,000, making the total sum available £5,200,000 which will be given by way of direct grant to local authorities in respect of these roads.
Within what period?
As quickly as these works develop and are called for by the state of employment in particular districts. That is to say, if the demands should call for the expenditure during the next six months, then the money will be expended in that period, and if, fortunately, the state of employment did not call for expenditure so rapidly, by so much, it would be postponed. But I want to make it quite plain that the Treasury contribution will arise, pari passu, with the expenditure out of the road fund money. I have explained how we propose to raise the money for the purpose of making these free grants. The problem being urgent, as the House realises, it has been thought right to give further encouragement to local authorities. The state of finance of local authorities is such as to make them naturally reluctant to embark on further enterprises involving capital and ultimately a charge on the rates, but, after all, the unemployment problem is one which has in the past been dealt with almost entirely by the local authorities, and it was thought well to invite them still to accept responsibilities in respect of these matters, and work out schemes and rely for financial assistance on the Government. In this matter the Ministry of Transport is not asking for funds for its own purposes or its own use but for the purpose of helping to solve this very pressing and immediate problem. Therefore, in order that no local authority may be able to say as a reason for not commencing work where it is urgently needed, that they had not money to do so, the Government have put forward proposals by which they are prepared in round figures to lend them 50 per cent. of their expenditure, and that, along with the 50 per cent. by way of grant, will relieve the local authorities from the immediate necessity of raising loans themselves. In saying that I want the position to be quite plain. It is open to the local authorities, if they can do so conveniently, to finance themselves in this matter. It is a question entirely for their own financial autonomy, but if they come to the Government and say, " We prefer to avail ourselves of a Government grant by way of loan in respect to these matters," then the terms have been arranged, subject to the approval of the House, that they may have 50 per cent. granted to them, and, speaking generally, that money must be repaid within a term of five years, though there are a few isolated cases where the term is somewhat different, and the rate of interest has been fixed by the Treasury at 7 per cent. But the local authority may at any time repay the money so borrowed if they find themselves in funds, and the Treasury is prepared to accept repayment in that way instead of spreading it over the five years.
I hope I have made plain to the House what the financial scheme is by which we propose to deal with these arterial roads. With reference to the scheme itself, it is free from certain vices which have characterised schemes for the relief of unemployment in the past. The old-fashioned scheme of putting men to break stones was asking them really to break their hearts. Such work was not productive and was more of the nature of task labour without being of any real benefit to the State. The arterial roads are valuable. I think it was under the presidency of Mr. John Burns that the Local Government Board set up a Com- mittee to inquire into the question of arterial roads, and it was upon the foundation so laid that the Ministry of Transport, through its Roads Department, was enabled to put forward an extensive road scheme in the country. In order to do that, we have had to invite the local authorities to co-operate with us, and it is within the knowledge of the House that the great local authorities of London, the London County Council, and the Middlesex County Council agreed to contribute something like 50 per cent. towards the cost. I am glad to say that more recently Essex County Council has also come into line as to a certain portion of an arterial road within their county. The contributions which are to be made by the London County Council and the Middlesex County Council I have not before me, but they are about, I think, £1,200,000, and the work has been commenced upon roads in both those districts. In addition, the local authority of Walthamstow put up a scheme of their own of an arterial road, and that work is in hand. There is also a scheme in the borough of Hackney, on the Homerton road, to which we have given some assistance. In the provinces about 90 schemes of local authorities have been agreed to, at a cost, it is estimated, of some £2,000,000, and work has actually been commenced on, I think, 35 of those schemes. I refer now to Great Britain.
I will not read the whole list to the House, but the House will be interested to know some of the greater schemes which have been agreed upon, and some of which are actually in operation. There is a scheme in Birmingham for new roads and widening on which work has actually commenced at an estimated cost of £120,000. There is a scheme in Bristol on which work was actually commenced on the 22nd November at an estimated cost of £38,800. In the Bristol area of the Somerset County Council work has been agreed to at an estimated cost of £54,000. In Dundee work commenced on the 29th of November on a new road at an estimated cost of £60,000. In Edinburgh a scheme has been agreed to, but not yet commenced, at a cost of £88,000. In Hastings a scheme has been agreed on at an estimated cost of £35,000. In Leeds a scheme, estimated to cost £35,000, was commenced on the 24th of November. In Leicester work was commenced on the 1st of November on a scheme estimated to cost £68,000. In Liverpool a scheme to cost £507,000 has been agreed to. In Manchester a scheme has been agreed to at an estimated cost of £144,000. I think I have indicated a sufficient number to show the House how widely spread and how general is the assistance which local authorities are rendering in dealing with this very urgent matter.
Are these schemes for new roads?
These are schemes for new roads and the widening of existing roads.
Does the amount mentioned include a sum for the acquisition of property?
In nearly all cases the acquisition of land on which to make the road is involved, but I am afraid I cannot let the hon. Member have the exact figure.
May I ask what proportion of these sums is likely to be paid in wages?
Certainly. It is estimated that something like between 60 per cent. and 70 per cent. of the total cost will be available for wages. That is the great advantage of these schemes as against other schemes, that you have the maximum sum paid in wages to comparatively unskilled men, and a minimum sum paid on capital expenditure or upon other forms of labour or material. In addition the Ministry received many requests from different parts of the land to assist in the expediting of the reconditioning of surface works on existing highways and roads, and up to the limit of our financial position during the current year we have approved of the expediting on road work, and have made 106 grants for that purpose. The work is estimated to cost £844,876, and the free grants £341,489. That does not appear on this Vote, and we are dealing with it as part of our ordinary work somewhat expedited, and out of our available resources. I have put before the House the schemes which the Ministry of Transport have been able to submit to the Cabinet and now to Parliament for approval.
I would like to say just one word about the progress of those schemes. The Government has done what lies in its power to expedite those schemes. Parliament has passed, and there is in operation, an Act for the speedy acquisition of land for the purpose, and we have made the financial provision which we now have sanctioned, but the rate of progress upon which those works proceed must be in the hands of the local authorities themselves, and all I can say is that I trust that they will find no obstacles which will prevent them absorbing that very large volume of labour which these schemes are capable of absorbing as they proceed. It is, of course, a quantity which increases very much more rapidly as the work proceeds. At the present time the initial difficulties are being well overcome, and I am able to say that the latest returns we have had —they are not complete—show that something between 5,000 and 6,000 men are actually at work in different parts of the country upon these schemes, and I hope that number may very rapidly be multiplied. The Act which provides for taking possession of the land at seven days' notice is now actually in operation. Some of the notices to acquire land will fall in during the present week, and as those notices become effective and the local authorities are able to take possession of the land which they require, by so much they can the more readily and the more rapidly absorb labour. One other subject only. We have asked—indeed we have made it a condition—that the work to be. employed upon these schemes, insofar as it is unskilled labour, shall be obtained from the employment exchanges, that it shall be from persons who have not been less than seven days on the live register, and that preference shall be given to ex-service men.
I should like to ask what steps the hon. Gentleman has taken to see that the new arterial roads are more practical than the roads which we have laid down in the past. Everybody who lives in the country districts, especially in the vicinity of large park lands, knows the conditions under which one has to go from one place to another and the extraordinary amount of waste in road making and upkeep which is experienced through having to go completely round a large park instead of having the facility to drive a road right through it. I should expect to receive a great deal of support from hon. Members on the Labour Benches in this matter. It is more particularly appreciable in my own constituency. Between Hertford and Hatfield is a matter of about five miles, but if anyone wishes to go by train, it makes, it about 11 miles, because the Marquess of Salisbury did not like a railway train anywhere within a mile or so of his private residence. It also applies very much to the roads. Here is a democratic Government with an opportunity for doing a really democratic thing, and I hope that when they get their schemes for driving roads through the country they will study the laws of Napoleon and the various roads which he drove in France. These are the sort of roads which would provide an enormous amount of work for the unemployed in this country. They would be roads of practical value, instead of simply tinkering on the outskirts of several large cities simply because there is a large amount of unemployment in the neighbourhood.
The roads to be of value to motor transport throughout the country want to be driven many miles away from towns. You cannot stop your enterprise four miles from the outskirts of a city because the men cannot be expected to walk any further than that to work. There are, I think, about 500,000 or 600,000 unemployed, of whom I see the hon. Gentleman proposes to absorb only one-half of 1 per cent. Nearly 100,000 of these, at least, if not a far greater number, are young men who are living with their parents and becoming a very considerable burden on the home establishment in consequence. These young fellows could easily go further afield than four miles. I do not know if the hon. Member knows the principles on which road parties are formed in various colonies. In South Africa, for example, roads are driven by large labour parties, who go over hundreds of miles, camping as they go and driving the road as they go. There is no earthly reason why a great many of these larger roads here should not be undertaken by big gangs, and we have any amount of tents and provisions for feeding these men, who could be well fed, well looked after, and well paid, and it would not be a question of making a scheme that is possibly uneconomic simply to absorb the labour in one particular district. The hon. Member knows very well that in London itself, which is where the main trouble lies, it is impossible to start some big scheme of arterial roads at seven days' notice. He would not suggest giving the Bank of England, say, seven days' notice to have a road driven through it, and if he wishes to absorb labour at the present time, he will do so much more quickly and practicably by starting some big, generous scheme of road work. In many cases there are large hutments in various districts which could be used. A good road service in this country would be a very good investment, and it would not be so akin to most of the Government policies for unemployment, which are based on the principle of taking in each other's washing. It would be a genuine contribution to the social welfare of the country, and I would like the hon. Gentleman to tell us that there are in his Ministry men with breadth of vision and sufficiently democratic not to go four or five miles round a park, causing many dangerous corners. Certainly, they provide opportunities for police traps, but police traps are not economic. Fining motorists is not an economic proposition, even if the money is employed on making roads.
Will he tell us when he replies that the Government have under consideration the driving, north, south, east, and west of London, of four great arterial roads, even if it does mean trespassing on private property, providing it is not greatly to the detriment of that private property. I submit that driving a road through a man's property can only have a sentimental detriment; it cannot have an economic detriment. It might spoil a park, but it will not spoil it for the general good of the community, and those are the things I wish the hon. Member would make a point of. He could absorb the whole of the £6,000,000 he has just asked for in such a scheme, and I can assure him that labour would sooner earn a labourer's wage for doing a man's work than draw an unemployment dole. You could acquire the land you want for the purpose of starting a dozen or more big road parties which would absorb all the young fellows who are at present out of work and who have no domestic responsibilities to prevent them leaving their homes. Get some scheme like that, and leave the local work to men who are married. Point out to the municipalities that they must in no case employ an unmarried man on their work while there is a married man out of work in the district, thereby absorbing the labour of the married men, who have their domestic responsibilities, and force from that district the unmarried men without responsibilities into these big road gangs for the driving of these arterial roads.
That would be a comprehensive scheme which even journals who are accusing the hon. Member and his fellow occupants of the Treasury Bench of squandermania could not on the face of it object to. It is a little bold, I admit, but surely they will not object if we on these benches, while deprecating useless expenditure, are quite prepared to support the Government on any big, generous scheme which will abolish forms of unemployment doles and create a genuine and useful output for the labour of this country. There is no man in this House who is not distressed at the lack of employment to-day, and here is an opportunity for a bold, catholic, and comprehensive scheme instead of merely a bit of patchwork as we have got. I do not think there is a Member of this House who will quibble with the hon. Member, no matter how much he asks for, so long as he does the thing in a bold and democratic way, and I do hope he will not be led away by little, tinkering, pottering schemes, absorbing a few hundreds of the unemployed for a few months in particular districts. I am glad to see the rate at which he is lending money to municipal authorities has increased to 7 per cent. for this purpose. The Government have many rates of interest for all sorts of schemes—6½ per cent. for housing, 7 per cent. for roads, and so on—and it is a sort of exchequer auctioneering which might form the subject of an interesting debate, but we have a right to say to the Government that they shall not lend this money to municipal authorities unless they are satisfied that their schemes are sound, because it is quite within the bounds of possibility that a number of the municipal authorities might go bankrupt within the next few years on account of the ill-considered schemes foisted on them by the Government. This is a wonderful idea, this driving of arterial roads through the country, and I trust the hon. Gentleman will not make a mess of it.
We have had a most important announcement on the arterial roads, and it is most satisfactory that the Government are giving attention to this matter. I hope Devonshire will have some share in the advantages of the scheme. As to the financial scheme, it requires examination, and we cannot give it our full approbation before we have given it that examination, but I am glad that the Government have realised that the local authorities deserve better treatment than they have had in the past. Local authorities are tired of being called upon to shoulder a heavy expenditure, and being told from headquarters in London what that expenditure in certain new directions is to be, without having any control really over that expenditure, and there is a general spirit of revolt throughout the country in that connection. There is only one thing I want to say in connection with arterial roads, and that is that I should like to know what is to be their surface, because really those who still make use of horse transport have had their interests completely neglected of late. Take my own part of the country, in Devonshire, for instance. There is a very serious state of affairs there in view of the condition of the roads, which have been tar-sprayed. They are absolutely like ice, and we have had endless accidents to stock—farmers driving their horses in that country over their farms—to farm carts, and so on. Only a short time ago a valuable cow of mine, which was being driven across a road to its pasture, slipped up. It was in calf, complications ensued, and it died. This is only typical of what is taking place all over the country. It has been suggested that you might have a strip not so slippery at the side of the road for those who ride on horseback. There could be nothing so dangerous. The horse might shy at something, get on to the slippery surface, and his legs go from under him. To-day the hon. and gallant Member for Battersea (Viscount Curzon) asked a question with regard to the slippery roads, and he was referred to an answer which was given by the Minister of Transport some time ago to me, in which he said there was a Committee examining this matter and making experiments. I put a supplementary question to him as to when that Committee would report. He was unable to tell me, but I do hope that the deliberations of that Committee will not be interminable, and that before long we shall see some real effort made by the authorities to evolve some method of making a surface which will not be so dangerous. It ought not to be out of the power of those who examine these matters, and I hope they may be successful in finding such a surface.
I do not think I shall be out of order in referring for a moment to the important statement which was made last Thursday week by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the course of his remarks upon economy, so far as those remarks have reference to the Ministry of Transport, and its connection with railways. I want especially to refrain from setting out the arguments for or against the continuance of the Ministry, so that my few words shall be conceived in no spirit of personal antagonism to the Transport Minister, with whom I have had many a friendly consultation of late. Perhaps I may say, parenthetically, that I am the director of a great railway, which has endeavoured conscientiously to do its duty by the Government and the public in every sense, financially and in other ways, and I believe the Transport Minister, were he here, would be prepared to admit that. The House probably knows that, for a long time past, a series of articles signed " Anonymous " have appeared in the daily press containing the most damaging charges against railway companies in general, charges implying a desire to defraud the Government in the interests of railway shareholders. All must agree that that is a most odious accusation, and it is an accusation we are most anxious to have the opportunity of repelling, as we can repel it. Some have said that this avalanche of articles has been due to the desire to create an atmosphere in favour of the continuance of the Ministry of Transport, but I expressly disclaim any desire to make such atmospheric accusations this evening. I and others have been to the Transport Ministry, and have asked on what ground such accusations have been made, and the answer has been given to us that there are one or two small railways in the provinces which have made outrageous claims, and then it has been said to us, " Do not start a system of propaganda in order to give publicity to your own case," and we have complied. Surely it will be recognised by the whole House that this is rather a hard position for us who represent railway companies. We believe, and we know, that we have done our duty conscientiously. We have been held up to the country —
How is this relevant?
I thought that it was a Vote in connection with the Transport Ministry, and that under the Vote I should be able to refer to the actions connected with the Transport Ministry of late.
If the hon. and gallant Member will look at the Vote he will see that it is limited to loans to local authorities for making arterial roads.
May I ask whether the first head is not to defray salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Transport?
No, the first head is "Loans to Local Authorities. First instalment of provision for the purpose of Loans to Local Authorities," etc., and the second is "Exchequer Contribution."
In those circumstances, I will resume my seat, while expressing a hope that the Transport Ministry will take into consideration this very serious question of the services provided in future for these arterial roads.
I rise to congratulate the Ministry of Transport on the expedition they have shown so far as arterial roads in Middlesex are concerned, but I think the last speaker has taken my thoughts back to Devonshire, where I had my birth and infant growth, that I am afraid I have almost forgotten what I was about to say with regard to Middlesex. In Middlesex we were approached by the Ministry of Transport less than two months since to apply ourselves to the arterial road known as the North Circular Route, and I am glad to say we have already commenced work on that route. It is not panic legislation, for the simple reason that they have adopted as that route a scheme laid down before the War, which stopped the scheme. We have been able to start on that particular route in Edmonton, Tottenham and Willesden. All these authorities have a considerable amount of land which this road will traverse, and in the meantime they have served notice on the intervening landowners. Therefore, I am certain that the Minister of Transport has done all he could to facilitate that work, but where I disagree with him is that while considerable stress has been put on the fact that they are finding 50 per cent. of the cost, and we have to give preferential treatment to soldiers, which is quite right, I say that is a Government duty, and not a local duty, and they should have found the whole. But at any rate, Middlesex have accepted the situation, and have arranged that the county engineer shall be the surveyor for the whole route, and he, on his part, has got the hearty co-operation of every engineer in the district through which this route will go.
I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport on what miscellaneous transportation schemes he has been able to save the £500,000? I should like to know whether this has reference to some of the reproduction schemes advanced earlier in the Session, and whether it is the intention of the Minister to abandon those schemes, because I believe that in the matter of the employment of labour, some of these schemes, at any rate, should be equally as advantageous, and far more reproductive, than some of the road schemes now being proposed. I should like to know whether this means that £500,000 has been taken from some of the schemes that we are promised— rural transport, agricultural railways, and that kind of thing—and applied to the road scheme?
I should like to confirm what my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Mildmay) has said about the serious state of the roads to those who have not enough money to buy a motor car, or are still old-fashioned enough to use a horse. All round my district the great majority of the roads are almost impassable for horse traffic, and, as I happen to live in a more or less sparsely-inhabited country, there is no necessity whatever for this spraying of the roads with tar. The origin of putting tar on the roads was with the idea that dust would be saved. Granting for a moment —I am not at all sure I do—that that argument is correct, there is certainly no object in putting tar on roads where there are no houses. There can be no question that the advent of motor cars, whatever advantages they may or may not have, is a very great disadvantage in villages or towns where the old-fashioned gravel roads are in existence, because they undoubtedly cause a tremendous dust, which is very annoying to the inhabitants. I do not believe myself that the proper solution of the difficulty is by putting tar on the roads. But whether that be so or not, there can be no excuse whatever for putting tar on roads where there are no houses. You can obtain an excellent road by using macadam instead of gravel, and by putting it on in a proper way. It creates very little dust, and it is not a road which is slippery for horses. There seems to be a sort of mania for having a pot of tar and men covering themselves and every passer-by with tar, with the result that it spoils everything, throws your horse down and injures the horse, and very likely yourself, and does no good to anybody except the people employed. In my part of the world tar roads wear out more quickly than any other kind of roads, and it may be possible that, in order to keep people employed, tar is spread continually over the road with the knowledge that it will be very deleterious, will cause damage to many people, and will wear the roads out much more quickly than if tar had not been put on.
As I have said, if we are going to spend all this money on roads—and a good deal of it will come out of the pockets of people who own horses—for goodness sake see that the road is properly treated, which I maintain it is not, even if it is a little disadvantageous to a motor car. After all, a motor is not the only thing on the road. If you want a good road in a town the very best class of road for avoiding dust, if properly kept, is the soft wood pavement. I put down a soft wood pavement many years ago at King's Cross Station, and I should like any hon. Member or right hon. Member, if he has got nothing to do, to walk over and examine that road. It has been down at least ten years without any repair. There is a continuous amount of traffic over it. There is no dust on it, it is not slippery, and is as good as when put down, because it is kept in a proper way. The road is swept but not watered. Usually wood pavement is either not kept in a proper way, or is made of hard wood, which is unsuitable. If the Minister of Transport would condescend to learn something from the Great Northern Railway, and will go to King's Cross Station, he will see the best form of road both for horse and motor traffic that can be devised for a town. We know villages in the country which are in a very serious state, and I trust something will be done in the matter. I have had to give up using a two-wheeled trap because I was afraid of falling out of it. It is very nearly as dangerous, too, to drive about in a four-wheeler, especially when one is in danger of meeting anyone coming along in a motor car like the Noble Lord opposite at the speed that he always seems to do, as we hear from subsequent police court proceedings.
I should like to congratulate, if I may, the Minister of Transport upon the fact that he has made a saving. It amounts to £520,000. The Parliamentary Secretary took a pardonable pride in drawing the special attention of the House to it. But I would point out it is not the sort of saving I should like to see. He has made a saving. Very well! Having done that, the money should be devoted to the repayment of debt. That would be a saving. Having made a saving the hon. Gentleman proceeds to spend it on something else. I do not call that a real saving. He has devoted money allotted for one purpose to another purpose. The money is still expended, and no real saving has accrued. I hope my few remarks on the roads, which have become really a very serious question in the country, will be given some attention. It is not only the people who drive who complain of all this heavy traffic— heavy wagons, tradesmen's lorries, cars laden with bricks—all this heavy traffic on the road makes it almost impossible to move, especially if it is at all greasy, and even in dry weather, the horrible tarred roads are almost impossible to drive on. I leave out of account the question of hunting. A hunting man perhaps ought not to be on the roads. But even a hunting man sometimes gets on to the roads, and I have unfortunately seen a man killed by his horse coming down on one of these roads while going through a little town. I sincerely trust that the local authorities, who know very little about roads, and the majority of whom never owned a horse, and know nothing about it, will have it impressed upon them by the Government that they should see, in the making of the roads, due regard is had for the different classes of vehicles that are going to use them.
I am with my right hon. Friend opposite in welcoming the saving to which reference has been made. I would also add this. While a saving has been made under heading G of the original Estimate—and we have had some admirable ideas for assistance to transport undertakings in connection with agriculture, as well as help in the industrial areas —there is a heading in the original Estimate on which I am sure the House will agree some still further saving might be effected—that is the headquarters expenditure.
What I was pleased at was the saving in whatever quarter it was effected.
The original Estimate was no less than £400,000 odd. I should be very glad if the money had been saved under head G. I desire to put one or two questions to the right hon. Gentleman. The first question I would ask is: what step is the right hon. Gentleman or his Department taking for the co-ordination of these various schemes? How is the matter being dealt with? Is he bringing into consultation with him any body competent to advise him, and have those who are undertaking these schemes any particular idea as to the general scheme? I do not know whether the municipal associations or the county council associations are the proper bodies. I suggest some information on that point would be useful to the House. The special reason that I am pressing this is because we want to avoid what is called panic expenditure. Matters are likely to become very much more acute than at present. Expenditure of this kind is not only useless in regard to its reproductive side, but it always creates a very bad effect upon those who are working that system. Everybody is affected by it. The engineer in charge is affected. The men under him are affected. The men who work on the roads are affected; for they know that there is no real and particular use for the piece of work, and they get the Government stroke, as it is called, and you get a general slackness of administration which is absolutely bad, and which brings up the cost; for everybody knows the scheme on which he is working, and on which public money is being spent, is hardly worth while. I hope this will be borne in mind by the right hon. Gentleman, and that he will not be pushed off from the very necessary precautions in the interests of everybody concerned in such a policy. One other question. To what extent, and how will these free grants be operative? Every Member of a county constituency must be aware, in his own experience and knowledge, that quite small authorities are put to a lot of unfair expenditure to improve and develop the roads for traffic from which they get no benefit at all. I speak in relation to these great arterial roads which run north, south, east, and west, and on which runs the big traffic. I understand that the free grants amount to £340,000 odd—
The £341,000 has nothing to do with the arterial roads scheme. It is to expedite the road surface scheme which is the ordinary work of the local authority and the Minister. The amount to be spent on the arterial roads scheme is calculated in figures I have given roughly to the House this afternoon.
Is there any grant which is made for these arterial schemes; and widening and strengthening—quite apart from making any new roads— which will be free? Must they always be accompanied by some local expenditure?
Roughly half and half. Half by the local authority and half by the State, the local authority having the privilege of borrowing the money which it has to contribute.
What I suggest to my right hon. Friend and his colleagues is that it will be well worth while to consider a policy of meeting some of this expenditure. We must all have cases in mind at the moment of quite dangerous turnings, hinging almost upon a very dangerous bridge, or something of the kind, and it is extremely difficult to get these remedied. The small authority cannot afford an expenditure of £3,000 or £4,000, which increases its rates; matters of this kind go on year after year, and nothing is done. Here an opportunity arises for the Ministry. Will the right hon. Gentleman consider if the rates of a small authority are rising too high that here is the opportunity to effect a useful purpose and help? If that is not done, may I ask if anything will be done unless my right hon. Friend undertakes it? I am quite certain a large number of cases of this kind could be presented to him. I myself could present two or three. This is a matter which one wants, but ought not to be unduly pressed at times like the present. I should like the policy to be considered. I would suggest that it is not unimportant to consider if a very useful public service could not be effected on the lines I have indicated.
With regard to the whole position I would ask my right hon. Friend whether or not he is going to work in water-tight compartments, so to speak, or are his efforts in connection with this large expenditure to be in co-ordination with other Ministries and Departments? What, for instance, co-ordination is there to be between him and, say, the Ministry of Labour? The House is entitled to know that, for it is a point not without its value. If you get one Department of State dealing with the problem of unemployment from its point of view, and my right hon. Friend dealing with the problem from the point of view of the Ministry of Transport, in these road schemes, arterial and otherwise, the widening and straightening the roads and the making of new roads, will it be well? What is the Cabinet idea of this expenditure? Is it to be left just to my right hon. Friend to pursue what he thinks the best way of dealing with the expenditure of this very large sum, or is he to work together with the other Departments concerned? Will they combine their policy? There ought to be a policy. There is no doubt that panic or undue treatment is bad. I should like to know from the Minister what is his idea. What is the scheme of the Cabinet in relation to all the great Departments concerned in this serious, this vitally serious problem? What policy are they going on? Is it to be a generally well-thought-out policy, or are we to go back to the old days when everybody did what seemed to be good in his own eyes, and the nation had huge sums spent in most wasteful expenditure? Is there to be pursued a very much better system?
7.0 P.M.
It may be convenient to the House if I reply to my right hon. Friend at once on the various points he has put forward. He is quite right; the House ought to know where we are, and whether we are or are not simply drifting and driven by the force of circumstances into an expenditure that may lead us nowhere, either physically or financially. Perhaps I may remind my right hon. Friend that the Central Fund from which the central contribution is made is a fund provided by agreement by the users of the roads. That sum is not part of the Consolidated Fund. It is specially detailed and carried forward from year to year. When the increased taxation was introduced it was done upon a unanimous report as to the sum of money to be raised. There were differences of opinion, though not very serious differences of opinion, as to what proportion of the money should be paid into the Central Fund. That report, as 1 have already stated to the House on another occasion, provided for a sum of £8,000,000 a year. As mechanical road transport increases, that sum will increase automatically. The arrangement was that of the £8,000,000 a year in a normal year—and this is not a normal year, a million and a quarter should be spent upon new arterial roads. The remainder should be spent upon maintenance, including certain specified improvements of existing roads, and then the roads of the country should be classified and that it was decided that in the case of the first-class roads the Central Fund should contribute right through, according to an agreed specification as to standard and maintenance, 50 per cent. The classification of roads throughout the country is being prepared by the local authorities. It is working out about 12 per cent. first-class roads, and 14 per cent. second-class, the remainder being roads to which the Central Fund does not contribute as they are of purely local importance. We were faced with the problem of finding work which was not fruitless work because we are agreed that that sort of work is the worst kind on which to put men. We were faced with the problem of finding work which would absorb the largest amount of unskilled labour, and in which you would not be spending an abnormal amount of your fund on material, and it was found that of the possible schemes at our disposal arterial road construction conformed most nearly to those considerations. Then the question of money arose. An arrangement was made with the Ministry of Labour, and this is an arrangement which concerns the House particularly, that we should spend the additional money in localities where the Ministry of Labour certified that there was grave unemployment; so that the co-ordination which my right hon. Friend (Sir D. Maclean) suggests has been attained.
We found that in order to meet to a reasonable extent the unemployment needs as far as they could be met by road construction, we ought to spend about £10,400,000. It worked out that about half of that would be for London and half for the provinces. The arterial roads were laid down at an Arterial Road Conference, and it was generally accepted as a suitable scheme of roads to be put down as and when it was possible to be done by the local authorities and by the Central Road Board and other Departments. We looked to our resources without drawing on the Exchequer, but drawing on the Road Fund, which I will again remind the House is a fund provided by the mechanical transport users. We found we had £500,000 this year, £1,000,000 next year, and then we got the normal year of £1,250,000. We took four years, and that gave us £4,000,000. The local authorities were asked if they would contribute 50 per cent. of the cost and, generally speaking, they have agreed. We wanted £5,200,000, but we only had £4,000,000 in anticipation, and so the Exchequer made a grant, which one might explain in this way: that it was in the form of an unemployment dole, though it would not be correct to describe it as such. The local authorities were asked to contribute another £5,200,000, and the local authorities, generally speaking, with a reluctance that we all sympathised with, have come forward, or are coming forward, with their 50 per cent. for these roads which, we believe, will be of great and increasing utility, in developing the housing areas of the towns, in developing through traffic, giving improved exits from the towns, and decreasing congestion in other places.
I want to join with the hon. and gallant Member for Willesden (Colonel Pink- ham) in congratulating the Ministry of Transport on the expedition with which they have dealt with the scheme for Middlesex, knowing full well how serious the situation is in many of its large centres. I want to call the attention of the House very briefly to a Very grave and growing feeling in respect of the local authorities. The Minister of Transport in his closing words referred to the fact that the local authorities had come forward in some cases with reluctance, because they are realising more and more the excessive burden that is being imposed upon them as local authorities in relation to raising sums that after all are of real national interest. I would remind this House that, generally speaking, local authorities are now having to find at least 60 per cent. in their rates in respect of matters over which they have no control whatever. Were it not that this Vote is in respect of a matter that is of pressing importance, I could conceive there would be a great deal of opposition on the part of a number of Members in this House in placing this further burden upon local authorities, because after all is said and done this is only a loan and it means that this loan has got to be repaid. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peebles, referred to the fact that in many authorities the burden is now so great as to be almost unbearable. I have dared to call the attention of the House to this very grave matter in the hope that the day will come when local authorities will only be called upon to raise that over which they have actual and immediate control, monies that they can vote and monies that they can control. Speaking for the area I represent, I know part of this money will go in respect of arterial roads that will be, in a sense, common to the whole country. The people of that particular Division which I have the hon6ur to represent will receive some benefit, but it will be a benefit common to all who like to use those roads, and therefore' I would raise my voice in calling the attention of the House to this matter in the hope that the day is not far distant when there may be some remedial measures for this state of affairs.
I would not have intervened in this Debate had it not been for a few remarks which came from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London. He said he could not see any advantage in tar-spraying roads. I always thought that the right hon. Gentleman was the high priest of economy. I always understood that the greatest preservative that you could put upon a road was tar, if you could not reconstruct it so as to make use of tarmac. I should like to know what would happen to the right hon. Gentleman, particularly if in his very immaculate top-hat and frock coat he found himself in a country road and a motor happened to come along and cover him with dust. I am sure his views would be subject to alteration. He spoke of the advantages of wood pavement and referred to the wood pavement at King's Cross. I agree that the wood pavement at King's Cross is excellent, but I always understood that wood paving was the most expensive method of road surface that you could go in for. I do not know if he suggested the country roads should be paved with wood.
It is cheap because it lasts.
I hope that the system of tar spraying will be extended as far as possible. It will certainly help to preserve the roads, which is in the interests of economy and it will certainly serve to keep down the duct, and prevent the right hon. Gentleman being covered with dust and mud. I should like, if I may, to support the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peebles regarding the co-ordination of road schemes. I have a doubt in my mind as to whether all these arterial roads will really be of the great use which it is represented. I hope they will, and there is one scheme in particular which, as a London Member, I hope every effort will be made to carry out at the earliest possible moment, and that is the great circular road. It is very important to try and relieve the congestion in the central area as much as possible, and I can see no scheme likely to help the traffic conditions of London more than the plan of this circular road. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will use every effort to hasten on this scheme, as I am sure he is doing already, and in so doing he will kill two birds with one stone.
This Debate would have been shortened, and the time of the House economised, if the Committee stage of this Supplementary Estimate had not been smuggled and rushed through on Saturday. As it was, no word of either discussion or criticism was possible. I also protest against Saturday having been quietly chosen for this subject. A Friday was bad enough— the usual short day—but a Saturday was preposterous. I wonder why the discussion is not postponed till Christmas Day at Lympne if, indeed, that festival is observed there. This is not the first time that this Ministry has endeavoured to get its Estimates through in this manner. These slim methods of evasion are quite comprehensible from the Ministry's point of view, seeing that it is the most unpopular of all the Departments of State, and has succeeded— without undue effort—in antagonising every section of the community.
With regard to the roads, there is a matter which has not been made clear in the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary. I want to know, are these grants only to apply to provincial authorities, or is London to be included? If London is to be included, there are certain roads which demand the attention of the Ministry of Transport.
I will not go into detail, but I will give two instances of the dangerous state of the roads in the case of many of the outlets from the Metropolis. Take, for example, the outlet on the south-east side of the Metropolis through Peckham, New Cross, Lewisham and Eltham. This road has been in a scandalous state of repair for some time past. Then there is the bottle-neck road into London through Brentford, and I venture to say that there is not such an approach or entrance to any civilised capital in the world as by this Bath road through Brentford. This is a road which has always been prolific of accidents, even before the advent of motor traction, and now it is nothing short of perilous. I have often had to use it on that machine, namely, the bicycle, the users of which the right hon. Gentleman so scorns, maltreats and despises, and several times I have nearly lost my life, and may do yet if I continue to use it, an event which, no doubt, considering my persistent opposition to his Ministry, the right hon. Gentleman would bear with Christian resignation and a laudable equanimity.
With regard to another question, if work is to be given to the unemployed, and it is a very praiseworthy purpose and object, I think immediate employment might be given on some of the old roads before embarking on these new schemes and fresh arterial roads. There are many of our highways in a very lamentable condition. There is that long stretch of road between Doncaster and York which has long been in a deplorable state and is impassable even to motors. I may say that on my bicycle I have ridden about 30,000 miles in the London area, and I think I ought to know something about the roads. There is another cognate subject. Some of the collateral and secondary roads, which are almost equal in size and importance to the high roads themselves, might be taken in hand, so that before creating new arteries many of the old veins should be doctored. I was unable to follow all the figures given by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry for Transport, but perhaps his statement will be sufficiently lucid when we come to read it. We did not gather how the right hon. Gentleman divided this £1,000,000 into two sums of £500,000 each. Why should not the accounts and contra accounts have been set out on the paper? I think it is unfair to expect as it is impossible to demand that anybody except a Michael Cassio," a great arithmetician," should do the mental calculations which are involved in the presentation of such important figures as these.
Take, for example, the sum of £5,200,000 which he mentioned. In regard to that he gave us certain explanations as to the manner in which parts of this sum would be allocated. I protest against these huge sums being suddenly hurled at our heads without our having any preliminary chance of studying them. In answer to a question which I put earlier in the Debate. it has been ruled that the first paragraph of this Supplementary Estimate is merely a preamble, and does not come within the purview of this discussion. I should like some assurance that no part of this huge sum which we are voting to-day will be allocated to the Ministry of Transport. It is true that the Parliamentary Secretary said, "This is not for our own use." Are we to understand that with the inauguration and execution of these vast new schemes there would be no addition to the staff of the Ministry of Transport? Bearing in mind the inflated number of the personnel of that Ministry already, I cannot but see—
That does not arise on this Supplementary Estimate.
The Parliamentary Secretary himself referred to this subject, and I wish to protest against any part of this money being used for that purpose. If this Estimate were to go to a Division and there were not a renewed assurance that no part of it would be devoted to creating new director-generals, officials, and bureaucrats, I should vote against it. I am opposed to this Ministry on principle and always have voted, and I shall continue to vote, against it so long as it exists.
We should have some guarantee that the money advanced for unemployment will be economically expended. I have had a good deal of experience in connection with famine work in India, where we had to institute relief works in order to feed the natives. On relief works in this country we do not want to give the men a fancy wage, but we should give a living wage, and employ as many as possible, and not give a large wage to a few. We want to help as many men as we can to tide over the difficult time until they are able to get full employment. I hope we shall not pay very high trade union wages, but give a fair living wage. I remember before the War there were relief works started in the construction of a road across the Green Park, and all sorts of men were employed at high trade union wages, and many of them took five minutes to push the spade in the ground and take it out again. The result was that there was an enormous waste of money there, and as soon as the road was made it was dug up again and a narrower road was substituted. We do not want to see that kind of thing again. In all these undertakings I hope we shall have a guarantee that the money will be economically spent.
With regard to what the last speaker said with regard to the "ca' canny" policy of men employed on relief works, I think those who are prepared to take charge of undertakings of this kind, if they allow things of that description, then it is bad management, and the people who are responsible must bear the burden. I am not prepared, however, to accept the statement of the hon. and gallant Gentleman with reference to that matter. With regard to the question of a trade union rate of pay, I hope the Government is not going to set up precedents by paying under the standard rate of wages. Many of the people receiving the standard rate now are barely getting a living wage.
I am not so much concerned with the maximum amount of money that is going to be expended by the Ministry of Transport. The total is £5,200,000, but even if that sum was to be expended within the next twelve months, it would not get us far so far as the arterial roads are concerned. If I have any criticism to offer it would be that the amount of the money is totally insufficient, and if we are going to get all these good things from arterial roads, I suggest that we shall want a greater amount than that contained in this Supplementary Estimate. It has been very pleasant to me to hear the remarks of the previous speaker. One would have thought from what has been said in previous Debates that the Minister in charge of this Vote would have come to the House in fear and trembling. I have particularly watched the right hon. Gentleman, and he does not give me that impression. He does not seem to have any fear or trembling 'at all, and it has been quite amazing to me to listen to all the good things that have been said about the Ministry of Transport. The very people who have been praising the Minister this afternoon were the people who went into the Lobby and attacked him repeatedly because of the attitude which he represents. I presume the problem of doing something for the unemployed has now enlisted their sympathy. As to the Ministry itself, I believe it is a very useful Department, and can go a long way towards consolidating the whole transport of the country. But I must not embark on that line of argument; no doubt it would be out of order. What I want to ask the Minister is this: Why should this money be entirely expended on arterial roads? Are there not many portions of the country where local authorities find it exceedingly difficult to make ends meet, while the roads within their area are in a very bad condition and unfit for modern transport? Why should arterial roads only be considered; why should there not be due consideration given to other parts of the country which need development in order to meet the needs of modern transport? Some of us happen to represent agricultural constituencies. We were promised good things in the Agricultural Bill. Some hon. Members hoped to get the millennium out of it. When we have got all the food which is to be provided by it there will then be still greater need for transport.
May I remind my hon. Friend that I explained that of the £8,000,000 per annum, £6,750,000 was going in contributions to maintain the roads of the country and to ease the burden on the rates? That is not directly unemployment work; it is normal work.
Does that include work on secondary roads?
Yes; 50 per cent. is to be on first-class roads and 25 per cent. on second-class.
I am glad to hear that statement. I hope that every facility will be granted to local authorities, and that we shall be prepared, in conjunction with the Treasury, to give every consideration to the local authorities in these areas, so that roads not merely suitable for motorists but for other sections of the community may be provided.
I want to bring under the attention of the House a scheme which, if it could be settled at once, would give employment to a large number of men, and, without reference to the local authority, could be put in hand at once. For three years and upwards there has been a fight going on between the War Office, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and the local people over the condition of an avenue made 30 years ago, 80 feet wide and two miles long, which affords an important outlet for London traffic, and enables it to get quickly on the North Road on the way to York. It is a private road, which has been torn to pieces by the War Office with munitions traffic during the War. If my right hon. Friend who nearly put an end to my existence the other day as he whisked into Palace Yard in his car would only take his car at the same pace down that avenue I venture to suggest that the best springs ever put into a car would not survive the operation. If the War Office would make a contribution for having cut the road to pieces, that sum, with what the frontagers would pay, could be utilised, and then there would be no necessity to come upon the local ratepayers, but there would be work immediately for the unemployed in a district where unemployment abounds. This is merely a question on advancing for the time being sufficient money to pay the wages, and it will all come back into the Exchequer. There would be no loss, because any contribution which came out of the public purse would be the only charge on public funds. I strongly recommend that this work be undertaken. The plans are already prepared, and the Ecclesiastical Commissioners can give any necessary data at a moment's notice. It would be possible to put 500 men on to do the work, and it would save many imprecations now uttered which ought not to be used.
It will not be necessary for me to detain the House many minutes in dealing with the Debate. With the exception of what has fallen from the hon. and learned Member for the Hartlepools (Mr. Gritten), there has been nothing but approval of the action of the Government with reference to this scheme. My hon. and learned Friend suggests there was an attempt made on Saturday to burke the discussion of this Estimate. I can only assume one of two things, either he was not in the House or—
Yes, I was present, and I objected.
Then the hon. and learned Member could not have listened to what was said by my right hon. Friend. We have no desire on this or on any other occasion to escape from criticisms of the Department. The hon. Member for Hertfordshire (Mr. Billing) fell into a curious error which I am unable to understand. He said the total number of persons who would be employed under these schemes represented one-half of 1 per cent. The fact is that the Greater London schemes are estimated, when fully developed, to find employment for 48,000 persons, while the schemes already approved in the provinces will probably find employment for 30,000 more. The hon. Member for Totnes (Colonel Mildmay) and the right hon. Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) raised several questions, and I may inform them it is not proposed in the case of these main roads to go to an extravagant expense in metalling the whole surface. It is desired that they should be metalled to the extent of 24 feet, and the remainder of the road be left for development later on. It will depend on the circumstances of each locality what is the best form of road surface, and that question is receiving close attention from a technical Committee whch has been set up in the Ministry. I may tell my right hon. Friend that the Committee is acting in close conjunction and harmony with the National Farmers' Union in the hope of securing a road suitable for horse traffic as well as other forms of traffic. The point raised by the hon. Member for the Holland Division (Mr. Royce) as to the origin of the half million saved on certain schemes is one which, I think, it would not be within the rules of order for me to deal with, and I trust he will not think me discourteous if I do not do so. The hon. and gallant Member for Melton Mowbray (Colonel Yale) spoke on the subject of wages to be paid to the persons employed on these works. I may remind the House that the local authorities who will be responsible for administering the grants will fix the scale of wages, and, as I stated in answer to a question the other day, no authority has undertaken to pay less than the current rate of wages. The right hon. Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) spoke of the relationship of small local authorities to these schemes. I understood him to suggest that some of these smaller authorities might have improvements which were urgently necessary wthin their district, but of which they as a district would not get the full benefit, and that too heavy a burden might be cast upon them if the work were undertaken. May I remind my right hon. Friend that so. far as that applies to Greater London the case has been met by the civic patriotism of the County Councils of London, Middlesex, and Essex, which have accepted the burden as a county burden in relief of local burdens. So far as provincial authorities are concerned, my right hon. Friend will see that many small non-county boroughs are concerned, and in their case the expenses incurred will be a charge on the county fund.
Will the hon. Gentleman deal with the direct questions which I put? The first was whether it is proposed to ask the county to submit the general schemes to the Ministry before the grants are made? Secondly, will they propose to go through large estates and thereby minimise the cost of roads and transport; and, thirdly, are they prepared to create large road parties, recruiting them from unmarried men, who could easily be moved and made mobile, to carry out schemes outside towns, seeing that married men could not be moved so easily?
Will the hon. Gentleman tell us whether these grants will apply only to provincial local authorities and not to London authorities? There is some confusion in the minds of hon. Members, and I should like a definite statement to settle the point.
My preliminary statement was devoted to the schemes in London, and I particularly mentioned the London, Middlesex, and Essex County Councils. My right hon. Friend (Sir E. Geddes), in answer to the right hon. Member for Peebles, also deal with that matter, and I think it is clear that a very considerable proportion of this money is to be expended in the metropolis. In answer to the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, my right hon. Friend dealt with the origin of these roads, which have been laid down according to the scheme of the Arterial Roads Conference, and all the points he raised have been duly considered. If he wishes to pursue the matter further I shall be happy to show him any plans in which he may be interested. With regard to the hon. Member's question about what I may call peripatetic road parties, I would point out that, if you can find work for the unemployed within a reasonable distance of their own homes, it is economically sound and domestically desirable, and all these schemes that we are putting forward to-day have that in view.
May I ask whether grants will be made to local authorities for the improvement of roads, the widening of dangerous corners, and so on?
The hon. Member could not have been in his place earlier, or he would have heard that point fully covered in the discussion.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
Third Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, " That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
In answer to a question which I was allowed to put after Questions to-day, I was informed by the representative of the Foreign Office for the time being that His Majesty's Government had not yet fixed a time limit to our responsibility for the maintenance of Russian refugees, but that it was hoped that the arrangements made with the Government of the Serbs," Croats, and Slovenes would result in the finding of occupation for these people in Serbia and in relieving the taxpayer of this charge. That is a superlatively sanguine attitude on the part of His Majesty's Government. I do not think that the Serbs are likely to provide either occupation or money for these Russian refugees. It is true that the Serbs and the Russians are both Slavs, and that they talk to some extent kindred languages; but there is no greater love between them than necessarily exists between, shall I say, a Sinn Feiner in Ireland and a Conservative in England. I do not know that the Croats or the Slovenes have any money, and. I cannot feel satisfied with the answer that I received. When this matter was discussed in Committee, the Under-Secretary of State said that he hoped that he had satisfied the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy), which, also, was a very sanguine attitude on his part. The hon. Gentleman did not express any particular hope that he had satisfied me, and I regret to tell him that he did not.
The answer which I received to-day goes on to state that, in view of the possibility of the Government of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes not being able to secure employment for these people, other expedients are receiving careful attention Will the hon. Gentleman indicate what those other expedients are, and can he indicate the date at which our responsibility in this connection shall cease? I have good reason for knowing that it is very difficult to do that. I was myself in charge of a large Department during the War, and excellent reasons, which I could not answer, were given on all occasions why that Department could not come to an end. I only brought it to an end by fixing an arbitrary date, and saying that a month from that date the Department must come to an end. It did come to an end. It is true that a very small nucleus or tail remained tacked on to another Department, but that was a mere trifle compared to the Department itself in its pristine glory, with 500 women and 15 men, over whom I was appointed as overseer, guide, and manager. Although it may be difficult, in the case we are now discussing, to say that on a certain date our responsibility shall cease, I nevertheless urge the hon. Gentleman to take his courage in both hands, because I cannot see any reason why the responsibility should ever have been begun. I say this with personal regret, because, probably, there is no Member of this House whose association with the Russians has been so close as my own. I certainly am the only Russian interpreter in this Assembly. I have a great affection for them, and if I were to pay out of my taxes for anyone, I would prefer that it should be a Russian refugee, for I have the greatest sympathy with them in their undeserved sufferings. I am, however, a representative of the British taxpayer, and I am not able to indulge any sentimental feelings at the cost of his pocket, which is already completely emptied—on the one side by taxes and on the other by rates.
How many are there of these refugees, and how did it happen that we became responsible for them? It appears from the Estimate that this is a "further" sum of £486,000. How much was spent before? I speak subject to correction, but it does not seem to me to appear on this Estimate, and I should be glad if the hon. Gentleman would tell me, and I should also like to know what reason he has for believing that the Serbs can provide either money or occupation for these people. I approve of his effort to transfer this responsibility to the Serbians, but I fear that his action will come back like a boomerang, and that he will have these people on his hands, because it is believed that the Foreign Office and the British Government have an inexhaustible purse, which is not the case by any means. At the present moment so little are the Serbians likely to be able to relieve us that actually this country—I have protested against it time after time—is educating a large number of Serbian youths at the universities, presumably because their own country cannot afford to educate them. I have no desire to prolong my remarks, but I hope I have made them clear and emphatic. I am told, when I ask questions about Armenians in Mesopotamia, about Russians in Lemnos, and so on, that it is a matter of humanity. I protest with all my might that the British taxpayer cannot afford this expansive and expensive humanity. He must draw in his horns. There are unemployed knocking at our doors at home. Are we to go on feeding Russians in Lemnos, Cyprus, Rhodes, and other islands? I do beseech my hon. Friend to—if I may use the expression with all respect—pull himself together and realise what are the real issues involved, to name an arbitrary date on which this will cease, and to let it be understood that the pocket of the British taxpayer is not at the disposal of the unfortunate and poverty-stricken refugees from Russia. I am sorry for them; my heart is wrung for them; but I beg my hon. Friend to realise that the British taxpayer cannot afford to indulge in sympathy with these forlorn and stricken people.
I should like to ask two questions with regard to this Vote, the first following the lines of the hon. Member (Sir J. D. Rees) who has just spoken. I see that, apparently, there was a previous Supplementary Vote of £400,000 for maintenance of Russian refugees, while now there is to be another £486,000. I have every sympathy with the Russian refugees, and I think we ought to afford them an asylum here, but I do not quite see why we should spend money on keeping them when they are here. If any Englishmen should spend money on them when they are here, it is the members of the trade unions who encourage Bolshevism in Russia, and who, apparently, are under the impression that the Bolshevists are very nice people.
I think my right hon. Friend is making a mistake. The Russian refugees to whom the hon. Member for Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees) has been referring, are the remnants of General Denikin's force, who were taken to Egypt, Lemnos and other places. The other Vote relates to British subjects recently repatriated from Russia.
Item C is the one which I am questioning, for maintenance of Russian refugees.
They are not in England at all. They were sent to Lemnos, Egypt and Cyprus, and some of them are now in Serbia.
Why should we keep Russian refugees in Serbia? That makes it worse. If they were over here they might be of some use, but I really cannot see why we should provide nearly £1,000,000 for Russian refugees, some of whom are in Egypt. Take them there if you like, to preserve them from the Bolshevists, but why we should spend a large sum of money on them I do not see at all. My second question is with regard to Item J, namely, £50,000 for " Purchase of Italian Oranges." That seems rather a large sum to spend on oranges, but really it is worse than that. The expression " Purchase of Italian Oranges " is rather a misnomer, because it goes on to say that it is for a claim recently preferred by the Italian Government for expenses of transport of oranges purchased by His Majesty's Government in 1916–17. Therefore, what we are dealing with is not a purchase of oranges, but the expenses of transport in connection with a puchase of oranges. I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Transport is not present, because I think he would be pleased if he could charge £50,000 for carrying oranges in one year, and apparently only in Italy. I do not know whether the Italian Government carried them over the sea, but apparently the charge was for expenses of transport in Italy. We must have bought an enormous number of oranges if £50,000 was charged in one year for their transport, unless the charge made by the Italian Government is an unreasonable one. I should also like to know how it is that so long a time has elapsed—very nearly five years—before this matter has been settled.
8.0 P.M.
The right hon. Baronet (Sir P. Banbury) has rather missed the point with regard to Russian refugees. So far as I see it, we are paying this money to these people whom we sup- ported and financed to defeat Bolshevism in Russia, and when our rapid change of policy took place it was necessary to do something to keep these Russians, who were anti-Bolshevists, from starvation. That, however, does not exonerate the Government. It is merely another instance of their lack of continuity of purpose and of the absence of principle in anything that they have done since they first came into power. The Government started to defeat Bolshevism where it was born, and, instead of carrying that out, they stopped, owing to popular clamour, what was a useful investment in the interests of humanity at large, and left us with this residue of £886,000 which, so far as we know, is only a payment on account, for keeping the people whom they misled into resisting Bolshevism in their own country. Hon. Members of the Opposition might take exception to the fact that we have not a quorum, or even half a quorum of Members present. The Opposition is represented by its leaders. Its followers , are nowhere. I hope the hon. Gentleman will give us a fairly good indication as to what the relief in Russia consists of. Is it relief to the British who are in Russia, or relief taking place in Russia?
Relief in Russia.
It is very difficult to understand how we can be relieving Russia with £95,000 when we are led by the Government to think in nothing less than millions and anything less than £1,000,000 is never referred to and of no account. £95,000 can do an extraordinary amount of good social work and, properly invested, can create a considerable amount of employment. I understand that the investment of £80 will provide permanent employment for one man. Therefore, £95,000 is a sum to be taken into account. Russia, a country which we do not even recognise, which we are not trading with —whom are we relieving in Russia and why? Presumably we are still relieving the enemies of Bolshevism, but how can we in one and the same breath provide money for relieving the enemies of Bolshevism and endeavour to have pourparlers with them with a view to trading? There is no consistency in the Government. That is one of the things on which I join issue with them more than any other. I would sooner have to deal with a consistent rogue than an inconsistent fool, and it is the lack of consistency which causes me the greatest amount of mental perturbation in relation to all their administrative measures.
The next item is the relief of prisoners of war in enemy countries. I always understood from the Prime Minister that we had no enemies. If we have, it would appear that there is another £370,000 to deal with the relief of prisoners of war in enemy countries. It is not fair that the Foreign Office should be driven to raise these big points of public policy. Surely it is the Prime Minister who should be here to tell us all about our prisoners of war in enemy countries who necessitate an expenditure of £370,000. I hope the hon. Gentleman will give us some idea as to when we may hope that the peace which passes all understanding will be a reality and not an illusion. When it ceases to be an illusion, we shall be saving at least £370,000 on this Vote alone. On the question of compensation for ships I do not propose to say anything. In the eyes of this House, £25,500 is such a small sum that it hardly calls for comment. On the question of the purchase of Italian oranges, I always understood that if you went out to purchase a thing you got it. But this is not a purchase of Italian oranges at all, but purely paying some back transport. I do not ask the hon. Gentleman how many oranges we got for £50,000, but there is something which is interned inside an orange which the taxpayer is rapidly getting in consequence of the administration of the Government on this and other matters.
On the payment under agreements with American meat packers, I thought the Americans had done very well out of this War, but we find there is still an odd sum left of £648,500 for the American meat packers. I expect you will find at least that amount of American meat lying in cans about the country decaying in dumps. We, who very occasionally support the Government, will have to support them in this, but could the hon. Gentleman say why we have to pay this now? The debt seems a very old one, and I know he will tell us why we have to vote this sum. These Votes which are rushed at the end of the Session are generally the most important of all. They are generally the ones which the Govern- ment, under ordinary circumstances, with a serious Opposition, would have the greatest trouble to get through this House. But so long as we cannot get fifteen out of 707 Members listening to the Government's financial methods. I am afraid there is little hope of getting even five into the lobby to register a vote against general extravagance. We are not driven into the lobby by any agitation. There are very few of the Opposition who owe their presence in the House in any sense to agitation on either side. It is not for the purpose of newspaper notoriety that we criticise the Government to-day. It is because there is in this country a vast army of the backbone of the British nation who have a small fixed income. It is not the men who can take advantage of a financial crisis and anticipate it, and even make fortunes out of it, whom we need to bother about, but in all these Votes, which mean another £100,000 here and £500,000 there, the extra burden on the backbone of our nation falls on the solid man with the small fixed income who is paying for the War to-day almost to the exclusion of every other taxpayer, and it is interests of that class which every hon. Member ought never to miss an opportunity of presenting to occupants of the Treasury Bench.
I hope I have derived much edification from the address of the hon. Member (Mr. Billing), but when he addresses himself to questions of efficiency and economy he might at least take the trouble to read the Supplementary Estimate which is under review. We had a previous discussion on this matter in which I spoke at such length as the Committee were prepared to listen to me on the several items of this Supplementary Estimate. I observe with regret that he confused three items of the Estimate together. Item C relates to the maintenance of Russians, the refugees from General Denikin's forces in South Russia, whom we undertook to support and look after. Relief in Russia is the money that we have been obliged to spend on our prisoners in Russia and other British subjects detained there, who have now almost to the last man and woman been released, thanks in largest measure to the activities of my hon. Friend Mr. O'Grady. This is not a matter of spending money on Russia, but a very proper expenditure on the relief of our own nationals recently detained in Russia. Again, Item H, relating to the relief of prisoners of war in enemy countries, dates back a very long time. During the War our interests in Constantinople were looked after by the American Ambassadors to whom we, as a nation, owe a very great debt of gratitude. They and their Consular representatives up and down the Turkish Empire rendered assistance of the most inestimable character to our prisoners travelling through from Kut and other places. Why this item appears only now on our Estimates is because the American Government only presented it to us in the autumn of this year. The other two items, those relating to oranges and to the American meat packers, are what I described on Saturday as blockade items, and I am sure my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) will be delighted to learn that we are not now buying Italian oranges, but that during the War we did buy successively in three years the season's crop of oranges in Italy, partly for the purpose of preventing the crop going to Germany—
And Italy.
It was before they came into the War—and also for the advantage of our own troops. He will be even more highly gratified to learn that we made a profit on the transaction in all of £16,000.
Why does it appear on the Foreign Office Vote? Why not on the Vote for the Ministry of Food?
Because the Blockade Department was a Department of the Foreign Office.
Was it the Ministry of Food which made the profit or the War Office? To whose account does the profit go?
I hope we get the advantage of it. In regard to the transaction with the American meat packers I hope the House will not take a wrong view of this transaction. During the War the Government entered into an arrangement with the American meat packers under which we obtained the control and direction of the whole of their supplies to the Northern neutrals, our object being, of course, to prevent a greater quantity going to the Northern neutrals than might be their proper ration, because we supposed it might go through those countries into Germany. We were obliged to pay on the spot about £600,000 and we contracted to pay the balance six months after the termination of the War. That is the item that appears on this Supplementary Estimate. There was no transaction conducted by the Allies in the whole of the War which was so economical, and which, having regard to the expenditure, had so dominant an effect on our prosperity in the War.
The hon. Gentleman the Member for Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees) has reminded us again of Item C. On Saturday I hope I conveyed the impression that I wish we could be rid of this outlay. It is no satisfaction to me, representing as I do a frugal and almost parsimonious Department, to be obliged to ask for large blocks of money which have no relation whatever to the ordinary expenditure of the Foreign Office. But in the early part of last year when General Denikin's forces were crumbling and when there was apprehension—whether well grounded or not who can say with confidence?—that his followers would suffer very severely at the hands of their enemies should they be captured, our High Commissioner in South Russia promised on behalf of His Majesty's Government that we would take charge of a number of these refugees. The number was in all something between 9,000 and 10,000, and they were taken to internment camps in Egypt, Cyprus, Lemnos, and Prinkipo.
Were they soldiers?
I imagine that a few would be soldiers, but the majority were women and children of civilians. In the interval between the fall of Denikin and the fall of Wrangel, a considerable number of these people appear to have left our charge and gone either to South Russia or elsewhere. We were then left with about 6,500, and we entered into an arrangement with the Serbian Government, not knowing what to do with these people ourselves, and it being obviously uneconomical to keep them longer than we could on islands and in other inaccessible camps. The Serbian Government have undertaken to do their best to find employment for them in their own population. The Serbian Government believe that they would be able to effect this purpose, or at least they hope they will be able to do it. If they do not—if they are not successful— then we shall have to review the situation at the end of six months' time, and that is why I said, with great reluctance, that I thought I ought to tell the House that I might be obliged to come to them again in connection with this item.
Are we to understand that £886,000 is to be spent on 6,000 refugees? Has the hon. Member thought how much cost that is per head?
The charge relates in part to a period when there was a larger number than the present number. I have no reason to suppose there is any extravagance in the maintenance of these people. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) expressed a view on Saturday which seemed to indicate that he thought they lived under conditions of considerable hardship. My hon. Friend (Sir J. D. Rees) has asked me to what other expedients we can resort. I was grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull for suggesting the advisability of raising the question of amnesty between these Russians and the Soviet Government. I promised on Saturday that I would cause that suggestion to be very carefully considered. Beyond that suggestion, and beyond the scheme we have in hand at the present time, I confess that I see no resources in front of us. I shall be only too grateful if any hon Gentlemen would help us with their advice in regard to discharging this obligation. It is perfectly obvious, and I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for East Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees), that we cannot afford this charge. Every day in the House of Commons some scheme or other that might redound to the great advantage of this country must be turned down because a few hundred or a few thousand pounds cannot be found, and I entirely agree, and I am sure the whole House agrees, that we cannot afford this charge. On the other hand, there is our honourable obligation. We cannot at the moment tell these people "We have finished with you. Go and look after yourselves. We cannot spend another penny"; but it is up to us to do everything we can to put these people out in the world in suitable occupations. I do not need any lecturing on that subject. I am not in the least apprehensive of criticism from outside this House. I listen to it with the greatest respect always, and I admit that we cannot afford these sums of money. We could not afford before the War to be imprudent, much less can we afford it now, and if this House or any hon. Member of it can add to the suggestion made by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull whereby we can rid ourselves of this charge without breaking our honourable obligation I shall be extremely grateful.
Can the hon. Member say to what sum this Supplementary Estimate is a further charge?
The first sum was £400,000, and the additional sum required is £486,000. I do not think that this item has appeared on our Estimates before the Supplementary Estimate in August. I think I am right in saying that this is the total charge for the year.
Question put, and agreed to.
Report [3rd December]
Civil Services and Revenue Departments Supplementary Estimate, 1920–21
Unclassified Services
Resolution reported,
" That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £395,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Food."
Resolution read a Second time.
I beg to move to leave out " £395,000" and to insert instead thereof " £285,000."
This is the same reduction which I moved in Committee. I should like to draw attention to the position which was put before the House towards the close of Debate in Committee by an hon. Member for one of the divisions of Bristol. In July last we had before the House the Ministry of Food (Continuance) Bill, and there was then submitted a memorandum to the Financial Resolution, which contained these words: That Bill passed, and is now on the Statute Book, but, happily, the contemplated date for the continuance of the Ministry to the 1st September, 1922, has been considerably foreshortened, and the limited prospective is now up to the 31st March, 1921, by which time this Ministry will have come to its end. I hope that the winding up will be speedy, and that the members of the staff whose services are no longer required by the Ministry of Food will not be found to have simply transferred their services to some other Department of State. That is a position which we find only too familiar. When a Department is wound up, we very seldom find any relation to the winding up in a diminution of the general staff of the Civil Service employed by the Government as a whole. I hope that the House will support a reduction in sufficiently large numbers to let the Government know that not only the public outside, but Members of this House are determined to see economy enforced.
I would not have risen had it not been for the fact that an hour and a half ago I received a letter by hand from the President of the Wheat Commission, in another place, saying that I ought to take this opportunity to contradict a statement which I made in this House publicly when this Vote was being discussed in Committee the other day. I do not propose to withdraw one single word of what I said on that occasion. I would like to complain about the way in which this letter has been sent by the President of the Wheat Commission. The Debate took place over a fortnight ago, and I only received this letter an hour and a half ago. The point was in connection with the storage of flour, and the President of the Wheat Commission ought to have intimated before now anything which I said which he considered incorrect. He might at least have given me some proper opportunity of dealing with this case, and not have allowed a whole fortnight to elapse after the original speech had been made before taking any action. I understand that the question of storage of flour is one which has to do partly with the Ministry of Food and partly with the Board of Agriculture. The other day, in the Committee stage of this Vote, I mentioned that I had received a letter from a very important firm of millers stating that they had 5,000 bags of flour. The OFFICIAL REPORT reported me as having said "5,000 tons of bags of flour." That was clearly a misreport, because nobody would use that phraseology. What I said was 5,000 bags of flour. I read part of that letter from these people, who are very large millers in Ashby-de-la-Zouch. It referred to 5,000 bags of flour which they were holding for the Government, the taxpayers paying the rent for the holding of the flour. They stated that the flour was going bad, that it was crawling with mites, and that if they were not allowed to sell it or use it at once it would not be fit for human food. An hour and a half before this Debate the President of the Wheat Commission sent me that letter. I will not read its terms, because they are extremely offensive, but it states' that my statement is a gross exaggeration, and that it is not true. I do not withdraw one single word. It says:
" as regards the quality, the flour as a whole is practically mite free and the number of bags affected is infinitesimal."
This is what I received from this firm of millers themselves who ought to know. They say:
" we are storing 5,000 bags of flour for the Government. We have had it nine months. We are receiving rent for storing the flour. It is going bad. We have already pointed out that the flour is running over the place with mites and ought to be used at once if it is to be used for human food at all."
Therefore I say that what I mentioned in the Committee the other day is absolutely true, according to my first-hand information, and, as I have stated, I do not propose to withdraw one single word of what I said.
During the Debate on the Bill to continue the Ministry of Food, I asked the Minister if he would go into the question of his divisional food commissioners. I drew his attention to the fact that a certain commissioner who was drawing a very respectable salary for himself, was putting in probably not more than three hours per day. My right hon. Friend I think on that occasion said that he would go into the matter. Up to the moment I have not heard as to the result of his enquiries. I am wondering whether in this estimate, particularly in the Section E.1, "Regional Organisation" this particular case is included. If not, and the commissioner has been dispensed with, I should regard it as an act of economy very helpful at this particular time. I was struck by Section D, "Law Charges" under which an additional sum of £26,000 is required. Naturally, when we read of this sum we wonder whether the amount is justified by the results. Many of us believe that the real profiteers of the country have never been got at at all. It is generally those individuals who are least able to bear prosecution, and, owing to some minor details which they have refused or omitted unintentionally to observe, find themselves in the Police Courts, and we would like to know whether this sum of £26,000 is justified. Another item to which I would draw attention is FF, " Peace Conference Expenses, £15,250." I do not want the House to run away with the idea that this was for any sort of hospitality. As I read the Estimate it is for dilapidation of furniture, utensils, and compensation for injury. It seems to me to be a very big item. Some information should be forthcoming to justify such an amount for dilapidation of furniture at an hotel for a mere peace conference.
There is also the question of Food Control Committees, in which £85,000 is involved. I would like to know if this is a scheme that has been made for the various local food control committees that have-been set up in the country, and in addition what is the percentage of national expenditure granted to these people for some local administration? There is one more serious item. My hon. Friend will remember that last week I elicited a reply to a question relative to sugar decontrol. He rather repudiated the idea that the cost of sugar went down as quickly as I endeavoured to prove. After the information I have been able to receive, I think I shall probably convince him and the House that I was nearer the facts than the right hon. Gentleman on that occasion.
Sugar does not come under this Vote. There is a separate Vote for the Sugar Commission, and any questions relating to it must be raised on that Vote.
I am sorry. I was under the impression that we would be able to deal with the Estimates as they affected the Ministry of Food. I notice that many of the Estimates concern the administration of the Ministry, and I was wondering whether the opportunity now presented itself to offer some criticism of the administration in which we are involved by this expenditure.
Not the general administration of the Ministry, but only the points that are raised by the actual items in the Supplementary Vote. Where there is a separate Vote, as there is for the Sugar Commission, the discussion of matters affecting it are taken on that Vote and not on the general Vote of the Ministry of Food.
I must bow to your ruling. Personally, I think the Ministry of Food is deserving of criticism in this respect. Whilst we have been able to give it a vast amount of praise for many of the efforts that it undertook, we feel that now, many months after the War, the Ministry should be dispensed with at the earliest possible moment, in the interests of the freedom and liberty of the whole community.
I wish to add in a few words my protest to the protests already made against what I believe to be the growing practice of Departments to spend money first and come afterwards for Parliamentary sanction. That criticism was made over and over again about a fortnight ago. Subsequently I put a question to the Prime Minister calling his attention to the practice and the answer which I got from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury was to the effect that he fully realised. the importance of obtaining Parliamentary sanction in advance, but that the exigencies of Parliamentary procedure often made it impossible to adhere to the recognised rule that this should be done. If it is not done it is obvious that what we are asked to do repeatedly is not to vote a Supplementary Estimate but to pass an act of indemnity for something already done. If the money is spent and the act of indemnity is demanded almost as a right, it is obvious that the control of Parliament over the expenditure is reduced to a mere form. It has the further effect, that if a Department knows or thinks it has merely to spend the money and then to come here and ask for an act of indemnity for what has been spent, not merely is the Supplementary Estimate not an Estimate at all, but the value of the original Estimate is, pro tanto, reduced, because it does not much matter what you put in the original Estimate if you know that you can spend as much money as you like and then come to the House and say: "We are very sorry. The money is spent and we want you to pass an act of indemnity for the action we have taken."
I shall not criticise these Estimates in detail. The Ministry of Health performed most useful and valuable functions during the War and during the first months after the Armistice. It is because I believe that these Estimates display a very flagrant case of the evil to which I have referred that I shall be bound to vote against them to-night, as I did on a recent night. Take the question of the regional organisation. That system was established in July. It is very difficult to believe that when the original Estimates were framed it was not in the contemplation of anybody that large additional sums would be needed for this particular purpose. Then there is the much smaller case referred to by the last speaker—the Peace Conference expenses, which we are told are for dilapidations to furniture, fittings, and so on. There the same criticism applies. Some sum should have been put in when the original Estimates were framed in respect of that particular item. We should then have had an opportunity of saying whether the item was a proper one or not. But now, inasmuch as the money has been spent, we have absolutely no voice in the matter. In every authority on this most important subject of Parliamentary control the principle I have mentioned is emphasised over and over again. In the well known work of Durell on Parliamentary Grants, there are several pages devoted to this particular point. It says that no expenditure can legally be incurred for which Parliamentary provision has not been taken, and in another passage there occurs the statement—
The hon. Member puts the case perfectly clearly on one particular count. I do not know whether he is a supporter of the Government or not, and I do not know whether he came here as such a supporter. He is showing a very necessary lead to other supporters of the Government. Coalition candi- dates should watch the Government. So long as the Government are assured of the humble and blind support to which they have been accustomed for two years, so long will Estimates be presented to the House in the way complained of. The practice is gradually getting worse and worse. During the War the House became accustomed to it because the average Member did not wish to obstruct the Government. We may have won the War, but we have yet to see whether we are going to lose the peace. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will pay Members the respect of explaining in some detail the items in this Vote. There is a sum of £10,000 for travelling expenses, and if there were a serious Opposition it would take an immense amount of defence to justify that item. They know that that Opposition will not be forthcoming, and they take it for granted that they will be able to jockey their Votes through without a Division. No man has attacked the party system more than I have, but I am beginning to wonder as to whether we have not got rid of the lesser of two evils. There is an item for law charges, and we are told that many convictions were obtained. I should like to know, have those prosecutions been against the huge trusts who have been gambling in foodstuffs, and how many chairmen and managing directors are now languishing in gaol, or, as a Labour Members puts it, sitting in the House of Commons, a remark which makes its point without repetition? What happens to the big profits made by the Department? Are those profits credited in this Vote, or is this money in excess of any profits that have been made? What is the meaning of a sum of £15,250 for dilapidation at the Hotel Majestic in connection with the Peace Conference? Here let me remark that an enormous amount of time would be saved by giving a brief régime or synopsis of squander-mania on the pages following the items, and if the system of explanatory notes were made more complete. Perhaps, on the other hand, it might give Members powder and shot to make a more complete attack on Government extravagance.
I hope this will be the last occasion, and I believe it will be, on which I shall have to come to the House of Commons with a Supplementary Estimate for the Ministry of Food. I should like to take this opportunity of endeavouring to remove the perfectly extraordinary misconception which still lingers in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean), who I am sorry is not present in the House, and, at the same time, I hope to entirely satisfy my hon. Friend the Member for the Rushcliffe Division (Mr. Betterton) that his criticism, with the principle of which I entirely agree, has no relevance to the Supplementary Estimate now before the House. The misconceptions, inside and outside this House, as to the Estimate presented on behalf of the Ministry of Food arise from two facts, namely, first, that the House as a whole does not yet grasp the distinction between Estimates presented by a trading Department and normal Estimates, and do not grasp the distinction between Estimates presented by a Department in liquidation and normal Estimates. What I mean when I say that the House does not understand the difference between such Estimates as I present of a trading Department and normal Estimate is that not one halfpenny of the moneys which have from time to time in succeeding years been voted by this House for the service of the Ministry of Food have ever been a charge on the taxpayer. I take the first complete year in which Estimates were presented—1918–19. The House of Commons voted us £4,250,000. We took the money, and we repaid it with interest at 5 per cent. to the Treasury. We paid it out of the profit we made upon our trade, leaving a net profit of one-tenth of 1 per cent. I take the next year, 1919–20. We were voted £2,750,000. We have repaid every farthing of it to the Treasury, with interest at 5 per cent., and the moneys for which I come to the House to-day, as the moneys for which I came on the original Estimate, I ask not as a spending Department, but simply as a trading Department, asking for the loan of the money to be repaid with interest at 5 per cent., and I can give the House the perfectly satisfactory assurance that that is what will happen to every farthing of the moneys which are received on this Supplementary Estimate, just as that is what has happened to every farthing of the moneys that have been received by the Ministry in every preceding year.
It comes out of the taxpayers' pocket.
No, it does not. The next thing is that hon. Members do not appreciate—and I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for the Rushcliffe Division does not appreciate—the complete distinction between such Estimates as a Minister is able to present, if he is to do justice to the cause of economy. when he represents a Department in process of liquidation, and the Estimates of a normal spending Department which anticipates a course of expenditure for the current year. If this had been a normal spending Department, I should have asked upon the original Estimates which I produced an additional £750,000, that being the rate of expenditure to which the House assented when the-original Estimates were introduced upon? the regional organisation which, as hon Members all know, is practically the' backbone of the Ministry of Food. I took the very unusual and unprecedented course of saying to the House of Commons, "I will not ask for twelve months' moneys because I am a Department in liquidation "—not then in immediate liquidation—" but a Department which is looking forward to liquidation, which is studying economy, which is continuously and progressively reducing its expenditure,"and I said," Give me moneys for three months at the rate for which I now ask them. I ask nothing for the remaining nine months, and I promise, so far as the remaining nine months are concerned, that I will do my utmost to spend, not at the rate you are now voting, but at a rate which will not be more than £400,000 per annum." Instead of spending at the rate of £400,000 for a period of nine months, as I then indicated, I spent half that sum, £200,000, so that whereas the original Estimates contemplated an expenditure at the rate of £1,250,000 a year, when six months have elapsed and I come to the House for my Supplementary Estimates, I have not only not added to that expenditure, but I have considerably reduced it, and, including all the moneys which I now ask: to be voted to me, it means that the expenditure for twelve months will be at nothing like the rate which the House sanctioned six months ago when I presented the original Estimates.
9.0 P.M.
I do hope that I have explained that it is quite impossible for a Minister in liquidation who desires to take every opportunity of retrenching expenditure, of pruning away the Departments, and of reducing his activities, to present anything except the blindest guesswork if he is to present Estimates for twelve months in advance, and therefore it is quite a mistake on the part of hon. Members to suggest that this is a case in which a Minister is coming forward to ask for moneys, the spending of which was not contemplated when the original Estimates were introduced, and which had in fact been spent without the authority of the House, and for which he now seeks ratification. The exact opposite is the state of affairs. I now come to redeem the pledge and the promise which I gave on the original Estimates, the promise of economy and of reduction, to say that I have not only fulfilled the whole of that promise, but that I have effected economies considerably greater than those I was then in a position to promise, and to ask the House, as a matter of form, now to vote me money at a much lower rate than the House had, in fact, voted on the original Estimates. When the right hon. Member for Peebles and the hon. and learned Member for Bristol (Mr. Inskip) put before the Committee of this House the fact that, on the occasion of the Ministry of Food Continuance Bill being before this House, we placed before the House a Memorandum in which we stated that the reserves upon our trading account, added to the balance of profit on trading, would be sufficient to provide for all unforeseen losses, including the costs of liquidation and the administrative and establishment charges likely to be incurred up to the 1st September, 1922, and then think there is something inconsistent between that statement and the necessity of coming to this House for Estimates, they not only show that they do not in the least understand what the Estimates of a trading department must necessarily be, but they seem for the moment to be entirely unconscious of the constitutional principles which govern the production of Estimates in this House. The statement I made in July that out of the profit which we made on a turnover of £1,000,000,000, we should defray the whole cost of the Ministry of Food, including the costs of liquidation, is perfectly true.
At what cost to the consumer?
At 2d. a week during the worst period of the War, and less than a farthing a week to-day, to the British household per family, and they got in return a saving amounting to many shillings. That was the cost to the consumer, and the cost to the taxpayer has been nil from start to finish.
We must not go into a general review of the Ministry of Food. That would be raising the main Vote in the Estimates. It is quite right as a justification for this Supplementary Vote.
I am much obliged, Sir, but I was just dealing with the precise charge brought by the right hon. Member for Peebles, who said that it was inconsistent of me, on the one hand, to say there will be no cost to the taxpayer on the conclusion of the operations of the Ministry of Food, a statement to which I unflinchingly adhere, and, on the other hand, to come to the House of Commons to ask them for moneys on account. The reason is, that if I were to attempt to proceed, as I could proceed from a business point of view, without coming to tell the House of Commons what it was I was doing, what I proposed to spend, what was to be the cost of the liquidation, I could do so out of my reserves, but it would be flouting the authority of this House, and it would be an unconstitutional act on the part of the Government. The reason why these Estimates are brought in at all is in order that we may endeavour to behave in a constitutional manner and with all possible respect to this House.
One-tenth of 1 per cent. I make out to be £1,000,000, and 2d. per family makes £4,000,000.
It is perfectly correct. It does represent £4,000,000, and it is the precise figure I have given to the House. I said in our first year, 1918-19, our most expensive year, we borrowed from the taxpayer £4,250,000, and I say that was at the rate of 2d. a family during the worst period at the Ministry of Food.
Yes, but it is not one-tenth of 1 per cent., which is £1,000,000.
I must refer for one moment to the criticism of my hon. Friend the Member for Wood Green (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson), and I must say I do very much regret that the hon. Member, of whom I wish to speak in terms of the utmost respect, should have thought it right and proper to adopt the attitude which he has adopted to-day. On the Debate in Committee he brought forward a charge of the kind which is being made every day against a Department of the Government, a kind of charge which could by no possibility be made against a private trader without the risk of being mulcted in tremendous penalties in a court of law. It is a kind of charge which is uttered recklessly day by day against the Government. He said that a large firm of millers were storing 5,000 bags of flour for the Government—he is reported as having said " tons," which I am sure must have been a mistake on the part of the Press Gallery—that the flour was crawling with mites over the floor, and that the firm said that unless it was sold immediately it would not be fit for human food in a few days' time. My right hon. Friend the Chairman of the Wheat Commission, Lord Crawford, takes the trouble to inquire of the hon. Member what is the firm with regard to which the startling allegation is made. He sends his inspectors and carefully inquires into the matter. He then furnishes the hon. Member with the facts as ascertained, and he tells him that the statement is a gross exaggeration, that the flour as a whole is practically mite-free, that the number of bags affected is infinitesimal, and that to describe its condition in terms similar to those employed in the hon. Gentleman's speech is about the same thing as describing a house as being infested by vermin because a mouse was once seen in the kitchen. In the ordinary course of business this flour is now being put into consumption. Having gone to the trouble to have this reckless charge, launched on the ipse dixit of a trader, carefully inquired into by responsible Government officials, the result is communicated to the hon. Member by my Noble Friend the Chairman of the Wheat Commission, and the reply of the hon. Member is, " I do not care anything about your inquiries; I do not withdraw a word I have said." I very much regret he should think it consistent with respect to this Houseamp;#x2014
I was asked by Lord Crawford, the President of the Wheat Commission, an hour and a half before this Debate commenced to withdraw what I said as a " gross exaggeration," and I refuse to withdraw what I said. It is possible this firm may be wrong. Here is the original letter, and I have quoted it again. Therefore I refuse to withdraw what I said as a gross exaggeration. It was not a gross exaggeration on my part, and it now lies between this private firm and the President of the Wheat Commission to fight it out between themselves.
It used to be thought, when an hon. Member in this House availed himself of information coming from private sources to make a grave charge against an administrative Department, that he made himself responsible to some extent for the accuracy of the charge, and I think that, on reflection, the hon. Member will feel that he is paying scant attention and bestowing scant courtesy for the pain and trouble taken by the Chairman of the Wheat Commission to ascertain and inform him as to the true facts in this matter. The only other matters to which I need refer are one or two questions by the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr. Waterson) and the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Billing) with regard to some of the - details contained in this Estimate. Both Members raised the question of law charges. The. matter was very fully explained in the Committee stage, so I need not repeat it now. We have had the duty, not merely of enforcing observance of the Regulations made for the protection of the public with regard to prices, but also the duty of collecting, on behalf of the Revenue, a sum of something like £1,500,000 in respect of the duty charged on flour under the Restriction on the Use of Flour Order. I venture to think that the sum of money compared with the work which has been done, of which very full details were given to the Committee, and are all available in the OFFICIAL REPORT, is really very moderate. Even the right hon. Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) on the last occasion, after hearing my explanation with regard to the law charges, found that he really could not move any reduction of the Vote in respect of those items.
I hope I have done my best to try to explain to this House the principles upon which all the Estimates of the Ministry of Food have been presented from the days of Lord Rhondda. The original instruction of Lord Rhondda was that the Ministry of Food should be made self-supporting without making a profit, and that any favourable balance should be utilised to prevent violent fluctuations of prices. That instruction we have faithfully endeavoured to follow, and, on a turnover approaching £1,100,000,000, there is estimated a net profit of less than one-tenth of one per cent. In
regard to the way in which the trading accounts are dealt with, I do not think I should be in order on this occasion, but my hon. Friend, who asked me to go more closely into these figures, will find the whole method fully set out, and a very full statement of our accounts in the paper circulated under the title of " Vote of Credit, Command Paper 1062." I hope the House will now grant me this Supplementary Estimate.
Question put, " That £395,000 stand part of the said Resolution."
The House divided: Ayes, 146; Noes, 40.
Division No. 433.] AYES. [9.15 p.m. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Hanna, George Boyle Pratt, John William Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C, Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Preston, W. R. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Hartshorn, Vernon Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Baird, Sir John Lawrence Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Barlow, Sir Montague Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Royce, William Stapleton Barnett, Major R. W. Hinds, John Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill) Barnston, Major Harry Hirst, G. H. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Barrie, Charles Coupar Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustavo D. Bennett, Thomas Jewell Hood, Joseph Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Blake, Sir Francis Douglas Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Sexton, James Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Brassey, Major H. L. C. Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Breese, Major Charles E. Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T) Bridgeman, William Clive James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Smith, Harold (Warrington) Brown, T. W. (Down North) Jephcott, A. R. Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Bruton, Sir James Jesson, C Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Cairns, John Jodrell, Neville Paul Stanton, Charles B. Cape, Thomas Johnson, Sir Stanley Strauss, Edward Anthony Carr, W. Theodore Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Sturrock, J. Leng Casey, T. W. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Sutherland, Sir William Cobb, Sir Cyril Kenyon, Barnet Swan, J. E. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Knights, Capt. H. N. (C'berwell, N.) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Cohen, Major J. Brunel Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Collins, Sir G. P. (Greenock) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Tryon, Major George Clement Cory, Sir C. J. (Cornwall, St. Ives) Lorden, John William Waddington, R. Courthope, Major George L. Lort-Williams, J. Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Loseby, Captain G. E. Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Davidson, J. C. C.(Hemel Hempstead) Lunn, William Waring, Major Walter Doyle, N. Grattan M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A. Warren, Lieut.-Col. Sir Alfred H. Edge, Captain William M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Waterson, A. E. Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Wignall, James Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Fraser, Major Sir Keith Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Molson, Major John Elsdale Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Ganzonl, Captain Francis John C. Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M. Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading; George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Wise, Frederick Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Murchison, C. K. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Myers, Thomas Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar Neal, Arthur Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Gregory, Holman Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Yeo, Sir Alfred William Grundy, T. W. Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Younger, Sir George Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Parker, James Hailwood, Augustine Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Perring, William George Lord E. Talbot and Captain Guest. Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Pollock, Sir Ernest M.
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. F. D. Billing, Noel Pemberton Cautley, Henry S. Atkey, A. R. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Conway, Sir W. Martin Betterton, Henry B. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Entwistle, Major C. F. Mosley, Oswald Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Glanville, Harold James Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Gretton, Colonel John Nield, Sir Herbert Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) Gritten, W. G. Howard Ormsby-Gore, Captain Hon. W. Wilson-Fox, Henry Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Raffan, Peter Wilson Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Hayward, Major Evan Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Kenworthy, Lieut.Commander J. M. White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. Hogge and Mr. Newbould.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
REPORT [1ST DECEMBER].
Resolutions reported,
"Civil Services and Revenue Departments Supplementary Estimate, 1920-21
Class I
1.That a sum, not exceeding £200,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for Expenditure in respect of the erection of houses by the Office of Works on behalf of Local Authorities proceeding with Assisted Housing Schemes approved by the Ministry of Health in accordance with the provisions of the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act, 1919.
Class II
2.That a sum, not exceeding £73,629, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Mines Department of the Board of Trade."
First Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made and Question proposed, " That the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
When on a previous occasion of discussing this Vote we asked for an explanation of this item, the First Commissioner of Works told us that it was due to a Cabinet decision. I have been thinking much about that since, and making inquiries, and I should like to know on this Report stage when the Cabinet decided that my right hon. Friend should take on this work as contractor for these local committees? We have got to bear in mind that the duty of the First Commissioner of Works is overlooking certain public buildings in this country, including parks. We recollect that during the War he undertook some other duties, in which, after all, he did not make good. If I recollect correctly, my right hon. Friend engaged in some agricultural experiments, most of which showed a loss.
indicated dissent.
My right hon. Friend shakes his head. He will have an opportunity when I sit down of contradicting my statement. So far as I recollect from the figures given to this House all these experiments were a failure. Whether that be so or not, the point that arises is whether it is an advisable thing to hand over to the First Commissioner of Works these schemes that are set out here. Six of them are in London, and there are others in different parts of the country. My right hon. Friend is now contracting for these houses in these particular districts. Is this policy one which the House really recognises as in his Department? It may be right or it may be wrong, but in any case we have to realise that he is doing something absolutely new. He may say that the local authorities cannot do it themselves. If that is his reason then we ought to inquire why the local authorities are not able to do this work for themselves. Personally, I reside in Camber-well. I remember during the Committee stage of this Debate an hon. Member behind me (Mr. Myers) produced a report which he said was a report dealing with a housing scheme in Camber-well, and that we were doing the work so well in Camberwell he hoped that other localities would imitate the example. I wish my hon. Friend would come and live in Camberwell. I started to live in Camberwell some seven or eight years ago. At that time the rates were 10s. in the £ I am now paying 20 s . in the £ as the result, presumably, of some of the experiments my hon. Friend behind me was backing in support of my right hon. Friend in front.
After all, it is a very serious consideration when local rates in any community rise to the extent of 20s. in the £. I have noticed my Labour colleagues always avoid those localities. They seem to have a surer instinct for localities where the rates do not extend to 20s. in the £. I notice also that a sum of £150,000 has been advanced from the Civil Contingencies Fund, of which £100,000 has been repaid, and the balance will be repaid from this Vote. I hope the House realises what the Civil Contingencies Fund was. It was a Fund created during the War to deal with exceptional cases. I do not know whether the House recollects that when anybody's property was destroyed in London by aircraft, as often happened during the War, this Civil Contingencies Fund was provided in order that these people might get some sort of compensation. I do not imagine for a single moment any one of these people got anything like adequate compensation I should like my right hon. Friend to tell me any case in which the people were, fully compensated?
That question does not arise on this Vote at all. We are not discussing the Civil Contingencies Vote.
On that point of Order. If you look at the notes to Item A, you will see it stated that a sum of £150,000 has been advanced from the Civil Contingencies Fund, of which £100,000 has been repaid and the balance will be repaid from this Vote. Am I not entitled, therefore, to raise any question dealing with the point as to whether my right hon. Friend is entitled to build houses for local authorities out of a Fund which was provided for other purposes?
That was a small temporary advance authorised presumably by the Treasury for this purpose. We cannot go into the Treasury advance. The hon. Member is quite right in discussing the policy of applying for that advance and going on with these houses in anticipation of this Vote.
Very well. I will ask my right hon. Friend what is the Civil Contingencies Fund, for what it was advanced, why he applied for £150,000 from this fund, and why this fund is still £50,000 in debt. The real point which arises from a discussion of this Estimate is the point how far my right hon. Friend is going in this matter. We have had enough, from the point of view of financial gain and loss, of the Government entering into competition with people outside.
It may be my right hon. Friend will get up and say the people in Camberwell, the people in Richmond, and so on, were unable to do these things for themselves, and therefore the First Commissioner of Works undertook to do the work for them, because he was more favourably placed. Does that mean that the First Commissioner of Works is now going to extend the whole work of his Department? He told us in Committee that it was a Cabinet decision. Does that mean that the Cabinet has resolved upon a policy whereby, when local authorities are unable to undertake the work which they ought to do themselves, and which they could do were circumstances favourable, my right hon. Friend, acting as a contractor in general, is instructed to do that work for them? That is a new principle on which we ought to have further information before we agree to this Vote. If it were a question of one or two places in an emergency, nobody would object. Take the case of the town of Louth which was destroyed by a flood. That was a very special emergency, for the question was very acute. If in a case of that kind the First Commissioner stepped in and said, " This is beyond the capacity of local authorities," I would agree, but when we get a list of eleven separate places, five of them in London and six of them in different parts of the country, where the First Commissioner, in addition to the work he has now of supervising public buildings and public parks, is going in for public contracting, then I say the House ought to be quite sure where this is going to lead them before they agree to this Vote. In order that we may have some understanding of where we are going, I move to reduce the sum of £200,000 by £100.
I have already put the Question. There is no need to move an Amendment.
I am very alarmed at this Vote, because it seems to me it is nationalisation of the building industry by a back door. The right hon. Gentleman, in answer to a question of mine, stated that they have got 2,036 houses in hand, and they are contracting for a number of places in London and a number of places in the country, and there appears to be no limit to where the First Commissioner of Works is going in connection with this work. It is stated that some of the work is being carried out by contract. I understand that some 120 houses are being carried out by contract and 20 have been completed, whereas by carrying out this work they have completed a very few of these houses and have still this large number in hand. Before the War the right hon. Gentleman's Department was an architectural Department, which dealt with only small matters of repair, and I cannot conceive how they possibly can expect to compete or carry out work at a reasonable figure from such a start. The right hon. Gentleman also answered another question of mine. He stated that at the present time the staff engaged on housing schemes number 120, including 9 architects and 11 assistant architects, and others are partly employed on these schemes. No officers are solely engaged in estimating, which is carried out in conjunction with other duties. I understood the local authorities were providing the architects in every scheme. In every scheme for housing it is laid down by regulation that the local authority should appoint an architect and a quantity surveyor, but it seems to me there are no regulations laid down or all the regulations are ignored wherever the Office of Works is called in to carry out the work. As I said before, this is nationalisation on a small scale. It is nationalisation of the very worst type, because it has never been before this House before it was commenced, and when you have a huge departure such as this I submit it should come before this House. I understand the right hon. Gentleman's Department is carrying out this simply as a contractor. He has asked for £200,000. It rather makes one's mouth water to think that £200,000 of the taxpayers' money can be used in carrying on a huge builders' business. I am under the impression that if it were a contractor carrying this work out something in the nature of £30,000 or £40,000 would be ample to carry out the contract. When the right hon. Gentleman brought this Vote up in Committee he stated that he would be repaid the whole of this money from the local authorities through their loans. If that is so why does he want all this money? I think there must be something more behind it than merely building 2,000 houses. If you take 2,000 houses at £1,000 per house, that is £2,000,000. I would like to know what contractor carrying on housing has got £200,000 capital to carry on the work. If you want to divide this £200,000 amongst the contractors I am under the impression you will get your houses completed very much more cheaply.
The Minister of Health has pointed out that these houses started at £740 each and they have gradually increased in price until they are now paying something like £930 for the last three months. If that is the cost of these houses then I am afraid that this is growing into a very huge Department which is being set up under the Office of Works, and such a scheme as this should certainly have had the consideration of this House, and it should "come before us before such a huge undertaking is embarked upon. If this is a reasonable thing to do, is it not equally reasonable that the right hon. Gentleman should take over the whole question of housing? It seems to me that this is a step which must lead to that, and I hope it will be limited, and that we shall have an undertaking that this Department will not be increased to huge proportions, and that we shall not have another building Department set up like the London County Council had years ago, which they had to scrap because of the enormous loss to the ratepayers. I am sure the taxpayers are paying through the nose for this experiment in house building by the Office of Works.
I am not concerned as to whether the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) has got his house built by the Government at Camberwell or not, or whether he would get a better house if he got one of the Government houses. If his ambition lie in that direction I hope he will succeed. I have no intention of attacking the Government because they have built houses, because I would like to see the Government building houses in certain directions themselves. Unless the right hon. Gentleman can give some better explanation than he did the other day I shall certainly vote against his Estimate again for several reasons. First of all, I want to know why he undertook this expenditure without consulting the House in some way or other; that is the main point from a financial point of view. It is no earthly good members of the Government coming down here and saying that we must have £200,000 for houses. That is no good if we are ever to get our expenditure within reasonable proportion. We must lay down what we want and then stick to it.
My second point is, why are these particular places chosen? Was Camberwell chosen to get the hon. Member for East Edinburgh to leave the ex-Liberal Labour Coalition and join the other Coalition? Will the right hon. Gentleman explain to US the number of houses that are being built in these particular places? I would like to know how many there are in each case, the amount spent, and the number of rooms in the houses. I want full details of these particular schemes, because I am sure we should be interested in them, and the House should have these particular questions answered. I am not quite certain where all these places are. Why have such places as Swansea and other parts of Wales been left out of this scheme? Surely they are deserving people. They do not always get what they deserve in some ways, but, after all, there is a right hon. Gentleman representing some city in Wales who is the Prime Minister, and surely he might see that some of these bricks are sent to Wales.
The point I wish to raise as regards this particular Estimate is a very important principle, as far as I can see, on the whole housing question. I have always held that the trouble in regard to housing today is that you get great employers of labour who do not house their own labour. I see the representative of the Government present who is in charge of the Post Office. He has civil servants all over the country taking houses to-day, and he contributes nothing at all. The same applies to the railways. In every particular case you find large employers of labour who should be able to build their own houses, just as landlords in an ordinary agricultural district do, and surely it is the duty of the Government to build for their own employés. That is a principle which the Government might at the present time very largely develop. Take, for instance, dockyard towns. There the right hon. Gentleman could perfectly well have helped the housing problem instead of choosing places like Bedford. If the right hon. Gentleman is going to build houses on his own initiative, let the First Commissioner see that the Government do the first duty of employers of labour and provide accommodation for their own servants.
This is a case where the Government have undertaken a large policy without consulting the House of Commons. How is this House to control expenditure when the Government, having spent a large sum, comes down and says, "We require the Vote, and must have the money "? I suggest it is unconstitutional, and the House would be very wise if it refuses to pass this Vote to-night as a protest against this procedure. Unless we put a stop to these things we shall have no control over this kind of expenditure. The right hon. Gentleman ought to have told the House what he was going to do and have got authority before he entered on the work. Unless he can give a more satisfactory explanation I certainly shall vote against the Motion.
I want to call the attention of the House to a very serious matter. An examination of the Paper will show that a sum of £150,000 has been advanced on the Civil Contingencies Fund, of which £100,000 has been repaid, and the balance is to be handed back shortly. What is the Civil Contingencies Fund? I have in my hand a volume called the " Principles and Practice of the System of Control over Parliamentary Grants," and this volume says that for certain purposes the Civil Contingencies Fund is available, and if it, too, is exhausted, the only other source is the Treasury Chest Fund, and such use of it (and that is the use to which the right hon. Gentleman has put it) is neither normal nor desirable, since its primary object is the supply of funds abroad. The Civil Contingencies Fund was instituted primarily for the purpose of supplying certain funds abroad, if at the time Parliament was not sitting. It must be remembered that in those days Parliament only sat for about six or seven months in the year, and if there were some unforeseen circumstances which prevented Government obtaining a grant from Parliament, payment was made out of the Civil Contingencies Fund, which, as far as I remember, is limited in amount, and was set up to enable the Government to meet contingencies of that sort. I venture to suggest that the use of the Civil Contingencies Fund during a year in which Parliament has sat for ten months out of twelve, and when it would have been perfectly possible for the right hon. Gentleman to have come down to the House and asked for a supplementary grant, is unjustifiable. The use of that fund for a purpose which is new, for a service which is novel, and which has never been sanctioned by any Government, or by any Parliament ever since Parliament existed—namely, the building of houses and a banking arrangement by which the right hon. Gentleman could advance money to builders—cannot be defended. Personally, I do not think it is right. I may hold views which are not shared by the majority of hon. Members. It may be quite right for the right hon. Gentleman to start a bank, and in Committee to call it a money-lending office, in order to provide money for local authorities to build houses. But he should start it under the style of " Mond amp;amp; Co., Lenders." Even it be right, it is a new departure.
I say the right hon. Gentleman had no "business to take this sum of £150,000 from the Civil Contingencies Fund. Had he been able to advance the argument that it was impossible to obtain the authority of Parliament, and that the work was so necessary that he could not afford to wait four or five months until Parliament sat again, it might have been right, in order to obviate a serious block financially, to take this £150,000. None of these arguments hold good in this case. I am sorry the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil) is not present. He would have pointed out that it would have been perfectly possible for the right hon. Gentleman to have gone to the Cabinet, and to have said to them: " Do not fuss about these little Bills; they only cause trouble; they take up a lot of the time of the House unnecessarily. Let me come down and ask for a Supplementary Estimate for something deserving the consideration of the House." Why did he not do that? Why did he take the money from the Civil Contingencies Fund, which he had no right to do, and why did he wait until nearly Christmas before he presented the Estimate? What is happening is this. The Government are still under the impression that we are at war, and that the Departments may do whatever they like. All the real safeguards which our ancestors set up in order to avoid, in the first place the King, and in the second place a tyrannical Government spending our money without our consent, have been ignored, and because we were patriots during the War and said that everything the Government wanted to do they must be allowed to do, they are now under the impression that we are going to submit to it in times of peace. It would be much better if we had Lenin and Trotsky over here. At any rate, they would deal with labour better than the present Government. We might endeavour to arrange for the Office of Works to be administered by one of the two, for then houses would be built, although whether or not they would be well built I do not know. I ask the House to protest, not merely by talking— it is no use doing that—but by voting against the action of the Government and showing it that we are in earnest in this matter. If the Government desire to spend money, they must come down and obtain the consent of the House before they do so.
The right hon. Baronet said that the Government seemed to think that we are still at war, and in some ways we are. At present we are at war with a shortage of houses, we are at war with unrest; and if, in any of the speeches to-night, I had heard one word indicating that the gravity of the housing shortage and the scenes that are taking place in our great cities, and the importance of getting something done, was realised, I should feel much less anxious than I do. What is the sin for which I am being crucified? In August last the Government found that housing schemes were getting on very slowly, that a large number of local authorities were not getting on with their job, and that the Ministry of Health were having difficulty in getting schemes carried out. The result was that it was decided that my Department—the only building Department of the Government—where the Minister of Health required its services in order that housing schemes might be carried out within a reasonable period, should act; and I very gladly accepted that burdensome and difficult task. I gladly undertook it in order to help to solve the extraordinarily difficult position in which we were. You might just as well blame my Department for having built, I think, £25,000,000 worth of munition factories, as blame them now for building what is just as essential as munitions were, and what is just as much a direct consequence of the War as the shortage of shells was a direct consequence of guns going off in France.
The scheme is perfectly simple, and does not involve the taxpayer in a farthing of expense. Where local authorities are in difficulties because they cannot get contractors to tender, or because the tenders are so high that they and the Ministry of Health refuse to pass them, they ask the assistance of the Office of Works—not, as the hon. Member for North St. Pancras (Mr. Lorden) seemed to think, to act as building contractors, but to put at their disposal all the architectural knowledge and experience that we have gained in the great housing schemes that we carried out during the War, and carried out at a lower rate than any private firm could be expected to do the work for, because they have to make a profit and we do not. Having done that, we are quite ready and anxious to employ a contractor to do the building. We have no feeling against contractors. My Department has employed and does employ very many contractors, but when we have not been able to get contractors we have resorted, and I am glad to say successfully, to direct labour. After all, there is no huge mystery about contracting. I have done contracting myself. Many contracting firms are badly organised, and many are well organised, but to say that there is some abstruse kind of sibylline mystery about contracting— that a well organised Government Department, with an efficient staff, cannot hire clerks of works, hire plant, and get people to supervise labour, just as well as other people—is to try one's credulity to the utmost. It simply depends upon the manner in which it is done, whether it is a private firm or a public Department.
10.0 P.M.
As to the question of money, we are dealing with the money of the local authorities, and the only reason why we want a Supplementary Estimate is, as I thought I explained very fully before, that there is a short hiatus between the time by which the local authority can raise this money and the time when the authority comes to my Department. People who sell building material, and even contractors, do not like to wait for their money. The Civil Contingencies Fund came in for about a fortnight only during the whole operation. There ought to have been no charge at all, if the finance had gone through with that celerity which was anticipated. When this Vote is out of the way, I do not expect that any further Vote will be necessary. It arises now because we have anticipated building for the local authorities, before the local authorities have got their loans through. In future we shall, perhaps, go a little more slowly, and wait until the money is all there. The right hon. Baronet, with his large experience of banking and finance, knows that such a hiatus will occasionally occur, and that we are really dealing with a mere transfer account. To build upon that such an enormous pinnacle of financial purity, to stand in white sheets and beat one's breast, is, after all, merely making this solemn and serious assembly appear slightly ludicrous. One hon. and gallant Member said that we ought to work with a smaller staff. He is mistaken; if anything, we want a larger staff. My staff is extraordinarily over-worked, and its achievement in carrying out building schemes to the value of £2,000,000 with overhead charges of about l¼ per cent. would be very difficult to beat in any-industrial establishment that I have ever seen. That criticism is also based on the idea—not always unfounded—that in Government offices the staffs are larger than they need be, but there are Government Departments, and mine is one, in which that is not the case.
A very serious question was raised by an hon. and gallant Member opposite, and nothing gives me greater pleasure than to give him the information for which he asks. In Camberwell there was a scheme for the erection of 290 houses. There was a great deal of unrest there, and a great need for housing. Negotiations were carried on with a public utility society for many months, but no houses were started, and so the council came to my Department, and asked us to carry out the work on their behalf. The Minister of Health agreed, the housing scheme has been started, and it is, I am glad to say, going extremely well. Having been able to enlist the sympathy and support both of the labour council and of the trade unions, we have supplied some very good houses, and are doing everything we possibly can to assist the local authority. Some hon. Member asked what kind of houses they are. There are two types, the parlour type and the non-parlour type. The estimate for the one is £950, and for the other £840 to £900. Take the next place. We were asked by the Ministry of Health to erect houses at Bedford. An arrangement was made with the Bedford County Council and a scheme for 210 houses is proceeding at present. Take Chester le Street, a very poor mining area. I am informed that in that area there are 6,000 families living in one room—I mean one room each. That is bad enough in all conscience. There are a number of scattered places in the rural district council and it is one of the most difficult housing propositions in the country. I am very glad to think we are helping, only to a preliminary extent at present, but we are putting up 600 houses. Finchley in August, 1920, had not a single house started. They came and asked us to carry on this work and 200 houses are going on in Finchley. Hebburn is in the same condition.
One hon. Member thought that great industrial employers ought to build their own houses. I most cordially agree with him. The firm I have been connected with have always taken that course, but what is the Government to do? Unless the House is ready to pass legislation compelling employers to build houses, what is the Government to do when you get new industrial areas started in which there are no houses and the employers refuse to build any? It is obvious that something must be done, and if assistance can be given, as it is in the case of these building schemes, no Member of the House can escape that liability. No Member of the House can vote against this Vote unless he is prepred to go to his constituents and say, "I do not care whether the local authorities are helped or not. I object to Government Departments doing social work of this kind even if it costs nothing." I should be very interested to see the reception they got if they said on the platform what they have implied in their speeches in this House. The Richmond Council received high tenders which the Ministry of Health was unable to sanction. Modifications were made, but still with unsatisfactory results. I mention that to show that it is not a case of a Department rushing about the country and inaugurating housing schemes. The housing authorities receive tenders one after another which cannot be accepted, and they come in despair and ask for help.
There is something similar at Carshalton. The contractors could not get on wih the job, therefore the Council came to us. When they tried again the next contractor's offer for 100 houses was £1,400 against our estimate of £1,000.
In the event of the right hon. Gentleman failing to build these houses for £1,000, does he propose to make up the deficit out of his own pocket, like the contractor, or will he come to the House to get the difference?
I shall not have to come to the House in any case, because it is the local authority which is paying. We have no objection to contractors: We are working some schemes with contractors. We are asking contractors to come in, and I have no doubt a great many of the schemes we do help will be the supervision of contractors' work. For many reasons we employ contractors where possible. Contractors do the work very much better and it is infinitely less trouble. Housing is the least profitable of building transactions on a large scale. There are plenty of other straightforward jobs, but we cannot stand the bill. The people of the country cannot remain without houses because of that. That is why we have had to come in. Shoreditch is a similar case. In every one of these cases we have operated at the request of the local authorities. These cases, however, are exceptions. Hon. Members can take a map and see how many housing schemes are going on, how many local authorities are doing it and how many are being done under this scheme. This is a very small, modest attempt to assist in a very urgent question. I have no doubt the work is. being very well done, and I have no reason to doubt that it will be done in future as it has been in the past. My Department carried out some work for settlement on the land—cottages for the Ministry of Agriculture. I will say a word on that because it is interesting and helpful. The work is finished and I can give the figures. Twelve cottages were built at Pembrey, South Wales, under a land settlement scheme. It is far away from any centre. They worked out, including all overhead charges, at £930. The lowest tender we have received was £1,120 plus increased cost of labour and material, giving a final figure of £1,230. Our saving per cottage is now definitely ascertained at £330. In another case the actual cost worked out at about £980 per cottage. The lowest tender was £1,638. I cannot understand why people have tendered in these cases at such an enormously high figure. Either they thought the job would be more difficult than it was, or they did not want the business, or they wanted a very unreasonable profit.
Do you ever exceed the estimate? Why do you not give us those cases?
These are the schemes we have done, and every one has come out well. I have no doubt, not being infallible, that it may be possible to exceed the Estimate. But in each of the six cases I have here which we have finished, a saving has resulted of between £200 and £300 up to £600. I mention that because those results show a saving for the taxpayer.
Several cases were mentioned in Committee where my right hon. Friend had estimated £1,000, and the cost turned out to be £2,000 to £3,000. He might deal with that aspect.
If the hon. Member wants me to deal with those, it is quite a different proposition. Two cases were mentioned with respect to the cost of converting old houses into flats. In these conversions you have not the faintest idea what you are going to meet with. In the first case we did not give any guarantee or any kind of ultimate figure. What we said was that we had examined the house, but if they wanted to know exactly what it would cost to convert it into flats we should have to pull down the house first. Nobody could tell how many rotten floors, bad joists, bad brickwork and dry rot one would find in a house, merely by looking at it. We gave an estimate of the house as it stood, and as we could see it. When we came to work at the house it was very much what we had expected. If we had been contractors we should have added 100 per cent for contingencies, and we could cheerfully have given an estimate. We found that it was an extremely bad old house, which was simply tumbling to pieces. We submitted an estimate in October, 1919, for £1,885. The estimated final cost was £3,300, which exceeded the original estimate by £1,400. Increased wages and cost of materials since the original estimate amounted to £500, extra work in under-pinning, repair of foundation work, etc., £550. We found that we had to underpin this old house which the council had handed over to us. How it was standing I do not know. When we began to pull it about the whole thing had to be underpinned.
Why do you not underpin the Government?
If we did, I hope we should do it as successfully as in this case. This old house is now standing, and is converted into flats. The cost of additional requirements amounted to £365, which made up the total excess. At Lewisham we got total lump sum estimates from the contractors of £654, £669, £718, £736, and £826. We converted 116 flats in Lewisham at £555, which is very much below the lowest tender. At Greenwich there was a lump sum estimate of £840, and we provided 52 flats at £426. If you take the total numbers the figures work out very well. But I would point out that we are not responsible for the flats, and that the conversion of old houses empty for years into flats is one of the most unpleasant tasks to undertake, and also one of the most difficult.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give any information about the Wandsworth case, which was done for £1,400, while the Department estimate was £2,800?
I do not know whether I have the report with which the hon. Member supplied me. I have the particulars from Paddington, but I have not these figures at the moment. Can the hon. Member tell me whether the contractor made a profit or lost £1,000?
He completed it in a very satisfactory way.
That does not answer my question. The question is what it cost him to do it. That is obvious to the hon. Member.
It is not when he is a contractor.
I am sorry that I have not had that case looked into as I intended. I think that I have covered all the ground that has been opened up. I would remind my hon. Friend that he is quite wrong about the agricultural results. The final figures show a profit. We went through the whole matter very fully in the Committee stage. I admit that in some ways a new principle has been laid down. I can quite understand hon. Members wishing to know whether it is to be a gigantic new departure. I can only say that it is not my intention, or the intention of the Government, to make a gigantic new departure. I am very hopeful, and things tend to show that, as other buildings are somewhat on the decline more and more, people whose legitimate business it is to carry out this work will step in under conditions which will make it possible for them to resume their normal duties. I am not an advocate of nationalising industry. I have been in industry too long, and know its difficulties too well, to commit myself to such an idea, but do not let us, because some Members may be frightened as to some vast future undertakings, lose our sense of realities at the moment. All this money is coming back in a short time, and while I am convinced that the House of Commons is earnestly watching financial matters, the Government also is doing the same.
We are not out for the blood of the right hon. Gentleman, but we are out for the blood of the Treasury. The right hon. Gentleman has made out a very good case for his expenditure in this matter. The gravamen of our charge is this: How came it that he was able to get his fingers into the Civil Contingencies Fund? We do not blame him. If I was a Minister and wanted money and could touch the Civil Contingencies Fund or the Treasury Chest for money, I should probably be delighted to do so. This is a clear example of how the Treasury are failing the House of Commons, of how they advance money to Government Departments without sanction of the House of Commons, from funds, under the control of the Treasury, which were created by Parliament for wholly different purposes. I deeply regret that we have not had here during our Debates a representative of the Treasury to answer a serious charge, namely, the method by which the right hon. Gentleman got his money. I am satisfied, personally, that the right hon. Gentleman has spent the money economically. I believe he is one of the few Ministers who understand the difference between a pound, a shilling, and a penny, and that he is one of the few whose Department is economically managed and is really working hard I am sure that in this work, particularly in some of those places where he has broken a ring, and has enabled houses to be built more cheaply than they would have been built in other circumstances, money has been well spent and spent in the interests of economy. Where local authorities have been in default, and the Minister of Health has had power to step in to build the houses, the House ought to be profoundly thankful that the right hon. Gentleman has been employed in the work rather than the Minister of Health. I am certain that the First Commissioner of Works knows a great deal more about business and about economy than the Minister of Health will ever know in all his life. If only for that reason, I shall support the Vote. None the less, I say that in this Vote there is the sinister fact that the right hon. Gentleman, without the knowledge of Parliament, has been able to dip his fingers into the Civil Contingencies Fund. Before the War there was a tradition in the Treasury. Before the War the Treasury were always adamant on these questions, and the Treasury worked with the House of Commons as the guardian of the proprieties, and customs in financial matters. That has gone. We cannot look to the Treasury to defend the taxpayers' interests against the Departments of State which are in search of money. It is a very serious fact.
This is not the only example in these Estimates where that has happened. The House of Commons must be additionally careful in all Estimates in future, because the Treasury are only too ready to advance money, to invest in commercial concerns, to sanction this and that, without the House of Commons being consulted. The Treasury are helpmates to anyone who is out to spend money. There is one point in the right hon. Gentleman's speech which I did not follow, and that was when he spoke of firm contracts. I agree that one of the chief causes of the present high cost of building under the housing schemes has been the system of time and line con-tracts, with wages and profits all going up until the cost of houses has gone be yond all reason. I am certain that the only way in which we can get back to economy is by re-establishing a system of firm contracts. I* hope the right hon. Gentleman was correct when he said, "We can definitely estimate for a particular sum. "I hope the right hon. Gentleman was right in telling us that in a particular housing scheme the cost will be so much per house. When you get to that position there is a chance of getting houses built, and otherwise things will go from bad to worse. I sometimes wish the First Commissioner of Works was Minister of Health in this matter, because he does understand this business, and has been in it for a very long time. I am satisfied if the work in this Estimate had been left to the Ministry of Health or to the local authorities and contractors, it would have cost more. Whether it comes out of the rates or taxes it is all the same thing; it is all on industry. I am quite sure that this is money well and economically spent, but as regards the propriety, it is another example of the way the Treasury is failing the House of Commons.
I think the demand for houses justifies this action, or, in other words, the end justifies the means adopted. I am not complaining of that, but I think the House of Commons ought to have been informed earlier of what was being done. I hear two stories of this matter. One is that the materials used by the Office of Works in these direct labour schemes are a great deal better than those used by the contractors. I am told that what the country is told is the cost is not accurate. I hear that £200 or £300 or £400 per house has been saved by the Office of Works doing the work. I hope it is so, and if that is it is money into the ratepayer's pocket. We hear about ca' canny in building. I am informed that on one of the municipal schemes the bricklayers laid on the average 900 bricks per day per man.
It must be a great exception.
I am speaking of what I know, and some Members speak of that which they do not know. If there is an exception to the rule, and it is published in the newspapers, it is applied to all the bricklayers and carpenters in the country. I am not saying there is not some ca' canny, but it is sometimes forced on the workmen because the material for going on with these houses is not in sight, and therefore they naturally go slow, with the object of waiting for the material to come.
It comes when the Government are doing it.
Yes, I believe that is so, but that is all to the good. We want to see cottages going up rather than churches, chapels, public houses and banks, and if the Office of Works can find the material required for these houses it is all to the good. Therefore, I do say that, whilst the right hon. Gentleman may be guilty of a technical crime, the fact that the work is done justifies his action.
I am somewhat loth to follow the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, but I do so because I want to say how pleased I am that hostile criticism has been directed against this Vote, if for no other reason than that of bringing the speech from the right hon. Gentleman that he has just given. I almost dare hazard the opinion that if those who did criticise the Vote had felt in their minds that the Minister would speak in the tone that he has done, that criticism would have been silent. His speech was an indictment of private builders' and contractors' work generally such as I have not heard since I came into this House and a tribute to the virtues of public service such as we seldom hear. The question of the Civil Contingencies Fund and whether the right hon. Gentleman should have come down to the House of Commons and asked for authority to initiate this work I will leave for discussion by hon. Members with a wider parliamentary experience, but I would just suggest that many services have been undertaken by Government Departments involving much greater expenditure than is to be found in this Vote without any of the criticism which has been directed against the right hon. Gentleman this evening.
Further, I want to suggest that no new principle is being recognised by this House in the work that the right hon. Gentleman's Department has undertaken. It is common knowledge that when private sources could not supply the country with the munitions that they required, the State in its collective capacity came in and made that provision; when the people were short of food, and private enterprise could not keep up with the requirements of the people, the various Departments of the State entered into that work and even provided the people with the food that they required; and the principle, so far as housing is concerned, is even older than that. In the Housing Act of 1890, there is a provision that where private enterprise ceases to make the housing provision that the people require, it is the responsibility of the local authority to come in and do that work. For a year or two private enterprise had not been doing that work. The exigencies of the War intensified that pressure, and public authorities had to come along and undertake this work, and after considerable difficulty public authorities were endeavouring to meet a fraction of the need of housing accommodation for the people. They came up against the position that some local authorities could neither get contractors to do the work nor were unable to do it themselves, and the provision of materials was difficult, so they went where they were entitled to go, to a Government Department which they felt was able to do the work, and asked for the work to be done for them.
The question of the Camberwell scheme has not much to do with either the rents or rates which the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) has to pay in that quarter. The fact of living in Camber-well is his privilege, and has nothing to do with the matter at all, except that in regard to the houses, which are being erected by the Office of Works in Camber-well, all round testimony has established the fact that the work is being better done, the houses are more substantially erected, the relationship between the Department and the labour employed on the job, and the price of the finished article, are out of all comparison to the advantage of all concerned when compared with the operation of private enterprise upon similar undertakings. Further, we have got to remind ourselves that these houses are not erected by the Office of Works on their own plans. The plans are approved by the Ministry of Health, and are similar to all other housing schemes all over the country, and when we are balancing the cost of the work of this Department against the tender of a private contractor, the circumstances of the case are substantially the same, because there is a recognised set of plans approved by the Ministry of Health for all the housing schemes in the country. Moreover, it was necessary for the Office of Works, or some other body, to take on this work from another point of view. When these housing schemes were sanctioned by the Ministry of Health certain financial provisions were made to the advantage of the local authority. But with that financial advantage a time limit was fixed, and if these housing schemes were not started within that period, the local authority concerned failed to secure that financial consideration from the Ministry of Health; so,. in sheer desperation, in order to save that advantage, they had to look somewhere for the work to be done, and to the Office of Works they came.
When the criticism was directed against this Vote in Committee it was from the point of view of national expenditure, and the first two or three hon. Members who spoke went for the right hon. Gentleman for wasting public money. But when he was able to show that that did not enter into the arrangement, then the discussion came out in its true colours, and the opposition was directed against a Department of State entering into competition with private contractors. I want to suggest that the real grievance the critics of this Vote have against this Department, and the greatest crime of which the right hon. Gentleman has been guilty, has been to make his Department successful, and the facts and figures he gave on the Committee stage, which he has supplemented to-night by the statement of what has been done in other directions, are proof positive that sound economy has been effected, and the ratepayers are being protected. If the right hon. Gentleman saves £100 per house in the construction of these houses—and he has clearly established the fact that he has done that—he has saved £6 a year in interest alone—practically half the rent of a workman's house before the War; and if he can save £150 or £200, he actually saves in interest alone per year the rent of an ordinary cottage house in pre-War days. As I said in Committee, it is the one bright spot of the housing policy of the Government at this moment, and I will repeat what I said on that occasion, that I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not weary in well-doing, but, taking en- couragement from the experience his Department has had and the great service he can render to the community, he will not endeavour to slacken the building of houses, but if any local authorities come to him he will respond by doing their work efficiently and cheaply, and turning out a better product than private house building is doing at the present time.
I thought the hon. Gentleman who has just addressed the House would probably have gone a little further and proved that if the Minister could save £400 on each house built, that ultimately he would get them for nothing, and pay the tenants a small honorarium for living in them! It is so easy to discuss figures on the Floor of the House. How easy is it for the representative of the Office of Works to read out here at haphazard a few groups of figures and speak of the enormous sums he has saved! I should have had more faith in the right hon. Gentleman had he taken one contract and told us exactly the cost of the transport, machinery, cement, bricks, timber, and wages, and how much his contract was delayed owing to the non-delivery of things. We then could have got an idea whether these figures of his were real or illusory. He might have told us the proportion of the overhead charges of his Department on the jobs he has undertaken. If some of the houses cost £600, and private contractors are charging £1,600; if the Government discover that they can build houses for £600, whilst private contractors are charging the municipal authorities £1,200, I ask why in the name of God are we wasting money? Why were these municipal contracts ever entered into? Hundreds, if not thousands, of millions of the ratepayers' money must be going down the drain if the statements of the right hon. Gentleman are true. What does the Government mean by accepting private contracts all over the country? Here after 18 months an exceedingly astute member of the Government, who knows only too well what business is— and the Labour Members cheering the right hon. Gentleman for his business capacity—there is no doubt the right hon. Gentleman knows how many beans make five—tells us what he does. There is no one who has more experience n dealing, not only with national, but international finance; there is no one who knows more about trusts, or who knows, how quickly to put his finger on sound and-unsound finance than he; and, I am sure, whatever private opinions may be, we, who represent the ratepayers, ought to appreciate his action to save the ratepayers' money.
I appeal to the Government to cease flirting with commerce. Either deal with this matter in the broad, generous way that Labour wants or do not dabble with it. If I were in the position of the Government, and could practically control every price, and could bear or bull the market, then business could be done-at a profit. But I do ask the Labour party to take this into consideration: when the Government put forward all these nationalisation schemes, they are-leading you up a garden, gentlemen! They are making you think that the one thing they have at heart and believe in is all these nationalisation schemes, and they believe in exploiting private enterprise and destroying vested interests, and you cheer them to the echo. If I might use the vernacular, I would say,, " If this goes on for another Parliament,, we shall have the Labour party walking lame, and that will be the end of it, gentlemen." But if Members really think that the Government is sincere, let them look at the Treasury Bench! Look at the Government supporters all along that official Bench—all the vested interests in the country! Does the Labour party really think that the Government are genuine or sincere? look at the solid Tory majority? No, Sir. The housing of this country to-day is an outrageous scandal. The contractors are in this position, led there by the Government, that they have gigantic trusts at the top and industrial unrest below, and they do not know where they stand. Thank Heaven, I have never tendered for any contract, so I am perfectly pure. When the right hon. Gentleman says that the contractors are prepared to accept time and line plus ten per cent., what does he mean by saying they are giving a fair price? I would have preferred had he given us the particulars .of the contract, and the principle on which he advertised the contract. If you have a few houses to built at Bridlington-on-the-Mud, and you advertise in the local Press, you cannot expect to get a very competitive figure. Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to tell me that when he built houses at £900, which was thirty or forty per cent. less than contract price, he prepared the complete cost of all these buildings as any business firm would have to do? Did he write so much off for all the various overhead charges which every business firm must do? If he did not, it is totally unfair to make such a statement to the House, and it is an insult to the contractors' integrity— though it would be very difficult in many cases to insult them.
I think I said in my remarks that the cost came to £930, including all possible overhead charges.
I only ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will lay on the Table one complete contract, showing how the work was carried out and the respective prices of material and labour? If the right hon. Gentleman will do that for me if I put down a question, that at least will be interesting and enlightening for the next Session. The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated that no further commitments were to be entered into by the Government on any contracts not yet started. Does the Government intend to develop the vastly wasteful municipal schemes on which they are at present engaged? Do hon. Members of this House realise that the man who has to pay the piper every time is the man at the very bottom? The richer the man is, the quicker he can get out. These houses being built as they are being built, it is so easy to confuse figures. I have heard it said that figures cannot lie, and I would like to suggest that liars cannot figure. In any proposition put forward it is easy to confuse the issue. In houses costing £1,000 the ratepayers and taxpayers are paying, approximately, £800 of it. That means that people who have to create the wealth of the country have also to pay for these houses. It has been suggested that the housing scheme in the next forty or fifty years will cost more than the whole of the five years' War. I believe that the Government know it. I ask them to get the facts and figures and work it out. There is no more uneconomic scheme than the building of houses as they are being built at present. We feel that once the Government start on this work their purse is open for everybody to plunder. That is the general feeling wherever you find municipal housing is going on. You will find a better output in the case of the private contractor than you do in municipal schemes. The Government scheme should have the close attention of the Labour Members, because they will have to pay for it in the long run. My advice is get all the money you can out of the Government for houses, and do not be mislead by the political flapdoodle handed out to hon. Members as to what things are costing. I appeal to the Labour party to see that the housing scheme and all other schemes of social amelioration are put upon an economic basis. Those who believe in the philosophy of Karl Marx must come up against the proposition that any proposal which is not sound economically must fall on the under dog. That is a sound economic truth which I commend Labour Members not only in the House of Commons scheme, but in every other scheme which they are so giddily dancing into the lobby to support.
11.0 P.M.
Many of us on these Benches believe that if the housing scheme is to be a success it must be undertaken in the manner adopted by the Office of Works. The particular grievance of the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Billing) is that a saving has been effected of from £300 to £600 per house. From an economic point of view we must be prepared to support the Government plan.
What I said was that I was violently opposed to the present municipal building with the figures of the right hon. Gentleman. I am opposing the whole proposition.
We support the right hon. Gentleman because he has accomplished something: he has done something which the contractors failed to do. He had the material: he employed men who would not otherwise have had work. That is a desirable thing, and if money squandered in other directions had been equally well administered people might have got work and houses. The right hon. Gentleman has been carrying out the policy advocated by the Labour party. It was the policy adopted by the Prime Minister in the hour of the nation's need in consequence of the huge exploitation in munitions. The cost system was introduced and it saved this country £400,000. This housing scheme initiated by the Board of Works will also save this nation many millions; it will at the same time do something for men out of work and it will give the nation houses it sorely needs
Question put, and agreed to.
Second Resolution read a Second time.
I beg to move to leave out " £73,629 " and to insert instead thereof " £53,629."
Question, "That £73,629 stand part of the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
Supply
REPORT [15th December.]
Army Supplementary Estimate, 1920-21
Order read for resuming adjourned Debate on Question
" That this House doth agree with the Committee in the Resolution, ' That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £39,750,000, he granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charges for Army Services which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, to meet expenditure not provided for in the original Army Estimates of the year in respect of the Garrisons in Mesopotamia and elsewhere, of National Factories and other Services transferred from the Ministry of Munitions, and of Charges arising out of the late War.' "
Question again proposed.
I believe that a reduction of this Vote is going to be moved, and I have some definite proposals by which large savings could be effected in the expenditure on the Army. Like the immortal bargeman, there are many things that I could say if I wanted to, but I do not propose to say them. The operations in North-West Persia and East Persia are already part of the anti-Bolshevist campaign, and the reckoning will be one day, but not now. In other parts of the world, however, we could make big savings. The first suggestion that I would make is with reference to the 12,000 troops that we are keeping on the Rhine. I am aware that those troops are there by Treaty, and also that they are extremely popular with the local people, and that their conduct is exemplary. We know the story of their giving their rations to the starving children when they first marched on to the Rhine. Since they took up their position in the Cologne area, however, many things have happened. The Ger- mans have disarmed, for one thing, and, in the opinion of the Prime Minister and that of M. Leygues, they are endeavouringing to carry out their obligations. There has been no real attempt on their part to shirk the Treaty. We have in our hands economic weapons infinitely more powerful than any Army on the Rhine, and the time has come when we should most seriously approach our good French Allies to see whether that Army of Occupation cannot be withdrawn. It is costing some £4,750,000 or £5,000,000, and a body of 12,000 men on the Continent of Europe is to-day, after all, not a very big force. As long as we have command of the sea we can enforce any Treaty terms on Germany, and it is time that the whole policy of that Army of Occupation was considered. When the House passed the Peace Treaty last year, it was understood that the Germans would pay for the Army of Occupation, but they have not paid and cannot pay for it, for reasons into which I need not now enter. Even if they were able to pay for it, it would be so much off the indemnity, and would be no saving to us, so that the British taxpayer is paying for it.
My second suggestion would not involve international action. I believe that we could make a saving in regard to the Army of Occupation in Palestine, if we accepted the offer of Lieut. Jabotinsky to raise Jewish battalions from among the Jewish settlers. These battalions behaved with great steadiness during the War, but have now been mostly disbanded. They would be in the nature of militia, and would be much cheaper than British troops, for whom we have to send out every yard of cloth, every pair of boots, and most of their food. There might be more difficulty with the Arabs, but I suggest that we should act quite fairly and raise Arab levies there. If we could raise Arab levies in Mesopotamia, we can in Palestine. If our policy is sincere to make Palestine, as we have promised over and over again, a national homeland for the Jews, we ought to allow them to raise, train, organise, and build up their own Jewish militia, which would result in a saving to the British taxpayer. The same would apply to local Arab levies. We are not letting enough people into Palestine. I know that there are difficulties with regard to transport, housing, and so on, but there are millions of people in Central Europe who want to go there, and if they were allowed to go they could form their own defence corps, and our British Army could be much reduced. The third suggestion is with regard to Egypt. One of the bright spots in the policy of the Government during the last two years has, in my opinion, been the sending to Egypt of the Milner Mission, and the Report presented by that Mission and the contribution of that Report, or something very like it, with modifications here and there to the re-establishment of confidence between the Egyptian people and the British, which is well within our grasp, would mean a tremendous reduction of the British garrison. We had an infinitely smaller Army in Egypt before the War than we have to-day, and we ought to be getting down to a smaller Army, and any section of the Cabinet that is holding up the putting into operation of the understanding come to between Viscount Milner and the Egyptian Nationalist party is doing an ill-service to the British taxpayer, and that is a real way where saving can be made without any loss to our prestige, in fact a great gain to the whole prestige of the Empire.
My fourth suggestion where we can save troops is that this is now a golden moment to re-write the Treaty of Sèvres. That Treaty for the partition of Turkey is impossible of carrying out and the return of King Constantine to Athens gives us a golden opportunity to re-model it. I believe the time has come when we can come to an understanding with the Turkish patriots—they have gone mad perhaps, but they are Turkish patriots nevertheless. I was one of the Members on this side who were glad to support the Government in their decision with regard to Constantinople earlier in the Session and I think that policy was entirely right. We can now go forward a big step and come to terms with the Turkish Nationalists. The French and the Italians want to do it and it would mean a great saving in our responsibilities, because if we do not do it without Greek support we shall have to greatly increase the garrison of Constantinople. These four points, apart from Persia, Mesopotamia and other commitments, are directions in which we can make great savings. These are all troops which we cannot afford to keep up in the future and in the case of two of the theatres of occupation, the Rhine and Constantinople, and areas outside the British Empire, and it is high time every soldier was drawn within the confines of the Empire. On these lines, which I admit touch policy—but the whole Supplementary Estimate is the result of mistaken policy—I believe we can make a saving, and we shall have to make a saving if we are not to face bankruptcy. I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £1,000,000.
I cannot put that, because I have already put the Question "That the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
Unwilling as I am to contribute to the Parliamentary resurrection pie, I wish to refer to the Mesopotamia portion of the Vote. The hon. Member (Mr. T. Wilson) said one should only speak on what one knows and he spoke of bricks. These are my bricks, though they are the bricks of Bagdad, Basra, and Babylon. I only support this Vote on the understanding, which I believe we have, that there is to be no more expenditure on imposing scientific administration and introducing social reform into Mesopotamia. If there are to be any more municipalities upon the Tigris and the Euphrates or anything approaching that social reform which has already landed us in part of our financial difficulties in that distant country, I would not for a moment support the Vote, and I hope the Financial Secretary will state in the plainest possible manner that that is a past and an abandoned past. I want to refer to oil. The hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore), in his excellent speech said that he was rather young, and he certainly proved it by committing himself to a most extraordinary positive proposition regarding oil. He said that he would not give sixpence for the oilfield of Mesopotamia: that it would never be a paying proposition: that that was the opinion of people who had studied it on the spot, and that to go to Mesopotamia for oil was like bargaining for the moon. I should say in passing that that is not the opinion of business men by whose opinions the public have to be guided. The fact is that there is an exceedingly important oilfield there which justifies me in rising. At the present time this country is groaning under the imposition of an exceedingly high price for petrol—
I would remind the hon. Member that these are Army Estimates. I do not see the relevance of the price of petrol.
With respect, I thought that as my hon. Friend had been the picture card of the pack, in Committee, and raised this subject with which the Prime Minister dealt, and that as he referred to this subject, I should not be out of order in stating in passing that there is every prospect that oil will be obtained, in which Great Britain will have a hand, and that, there fore, the present high prices, which arise solely from domination of American and Dutch companies, will pass away, and that the whole of the public in this country, will be greatly advantaged in the lower prices of petrol and oils which are the life blood of the commerce of the country, and—
I would ask the hon. Member on which of these Items does he think that the price of oil comes in? I cannot find it in the Supplementary Estimate.
It is a point that was discussed in Committee, and although I apologise for having resurrected it, I thought that if it was relevant in Committee it would be relevant now.
If it was out of order in Committee, there is no reason why it should be resurrected now. The rules on Report are rather stricter than in Committee.
I will not proceed further with the subject. I hope to see our troops leave Persia as early as possible, and I am sorry that they have to wait until spring; but I must demur from my hon. Friend in his suggestion that it would not matter if the Persian Government left Teheran and went into a province of southern Persia. It would be the ruin of the Government of Persia if the present ruling family, which is of Turkish origin, left its capital in northern Persia and went into southern Persia. In that event there would be an end of the Kings of Kings who have lasted since the days of Cyprus and Darius.
Was not Cyrus's capital in the south of Persia? Had not all the great Kings of Persia their capital in southern Persia?
I am not sure; but in any case that does not alter the fact that the present ruling family are Turks belonging to northern Persia, that their home is there, and that to go south would be practically for them to abdicate. I repudiate the doctrine laid down by the hon. Member as to the effect which that would have on the situation in Persia. I hope sincerely that Adrianople and Smyrna will be left to the Turks and taken away from the Greeks.
The hon. Member cannot refer to Adrianople or Smyrna.
I quite realise that, and will not attempt to carry it further. I only hope that the little which I have said will be excused on the ground that one who knows something about Mesopotamia and the people in it and has done duty as an Arabic interpreter may be allowed to say a word or two on the subject before we part with it for the Session.
I must protest strenuously against the form which this Army Estimate takes. It is one of the most confusing papers ever presented to the House of Commons. I understand that it is prepared on a form which leaves no option to the right hon. Gentleman. It compares most unfavourably with the Navy Estimate which was presented the day before, which contained every bit of information that a fair-minded man could ask for in discussing a Government Estimate. The heads were related to the original Estimate. The increases were shown clearly and there was a reason— whether good, bad, or indifferent—in a footnote for the increase which the House was asked to grant. The Army Estimate does not conform to the Navy Estimate in any one of these particulars. One cannot tell without careful examination what was the original Estimate. There is no adequate footnote. There was a memorandum which left out either of the most important parts and required elucidation and was only extracted from the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Estimates by my right hon. Friend, and if the Army Council desired to make it as difficult as possible for the House of Commons to understand what the Supplementary Vote is about they have succeeded entirely. There is no opportunity of moving a reduction, and there is no other way of testing the feeling of the House than by voting against the Estimate which I will do.
My right hon. Friend does considerable injustice to the War Office as to the form in which it presents this Estimate. The same form was adopted last year and there was no objection taken to that, though the sum last year was greater than that for which we are forced to ask this year. The Army Estimates this year are presented in a form which has been pressed upon us by Committees and the House of Commons, and in which Sir Charles Harris, whose work in this respect is well known, has played a most distinguished part.
Whereas the old Estimates used to give the sum required for pay, for food, for transport, for quartering and so on, so that you could not possibly follow the cost of any particular theatre, these Estimates have, with great difficulty, in this modern form grouped all this expenditure under certain definite heads, so that it is possible to see broadly what is actually taking place. That is an enormous advantage and adds enormously to the labour, but it gives far greater information than the House has ever received before. There can be no denying the improvement that has been effected in that respect.
All the attacks made on the Government about the expenses in the different theatres are based on figures which are culled continuously by the newspapers from this inexhaustible fund of information, so frankly, so generously given under the most modern system by that most rigidly careful of economists, Sir Charles Harris. I think it rather hard luck that this great step in advance has been used not only as a means of bombarding the Government but that complaints should be made as to the actual form in which we have presented the Estimates. Take the Supplementary Estimate. It is suggested that we should present a Supplementary Estimate which would show the modifications of each vote caused by the supplementary charges. That would have involved the alteration of every single Vote from one end to the other of the Estimates. We should have had to produce a volume of 150 pages now, at this stage of the Session. Of course, we have only a limited staff and many people would like to see it more limited, but that staff is engaged now with the preparation of the Appropriation Account, which has to be in the hands of the Comptroller and Auditor-General by the end of January, and has to be available for the House by the beginning of March. The Appropriation Account is another large volume of nearly 200 pages, and that conveys all the information, not estimates, as to what has actually been spent in the year —definite and final figures and facts, and not hypothetical conjectures as to what will happen on a given date. That great volume absorbs all the staff's energies.
That is not all. We are going through the prices and Estimates of 1921-1922, and this further volume of 150 to 200 pages is now being hammered out night and day, the staff working under great stress and strain. To put the preparation of the third volume on them at the same time, apart from the waste of printing and paper, would, I am sure, break the financial department of the War Office. It simply could not be done without an enormous increase of the staff. I am sure the complaint is unreasonable. It has not been put forward in any unreasonable spirit, but only because my right hon. Friend (Sir D. Maclean) and the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) have found it necessary to make the point. If my right hon. Friend and the right hon. Member for Paisley were acquainted with the conditions prevailing with the finance department of the War Office, I am sure they would not have criticised us. A very interesting topic was raised by my hon. Friend (Sir J. D. Rees) who is a great authority on the East, and many other things besides. Of course the hon. Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) is a great authority on everything, a universal authority, but at this period of the Parliamentary year and of the Session, I suggest it is not useful to try and debate difficult questions of Foreign Office policy and diplomacy. In a few weeks we hope to meet again with renewed stores of energy, and there will then be all the proper and fitting opportunities of a Parliamentary Session to discuss great questions of policy. Our position in Persia, our policy in Mesopotamia, and with this, that, and the other foreign country and its reaction on ourselves can be raised on the Debate on the Address. The very large questions connected with the Army and Air Forces can be raised in the Motion getting Mr. Speaker out of the Chair, and various questions can be raised on the Vote on Account. All these matters will be absolutely open to the House when it returns after its exiguous Recess. I hope we shall not be drawn into those extremely important and complicated topics at the present hour of the night.
I have had the satisfaction of reading of the political activities of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War and some of his speeches, and I understand from them that the secret of all opposition is never to let the Government get away with anything at any time without considerable criticism. Therefore, I feel the right hon. Gentleman was not serious in suggesting we should lose such an opportunity. But there are other Votes of even greater interest and
possibly at this time of greater importance. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on admitting that some of us are great authorities on some things. I once heard the right hon. Gentleman described as an expert on all matters in connection with the War Office and the greatest living authority on everything else. I urge him not to suggest to those of us who have closely followed his career and who remember his virulent abuse of the very Government he now honours by his presence, that this is not an occasion on which to offer criticism if we in our wisdom think fit to offer it.
Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
The House divided: Ayes, 118; Noes, 33.
Division No. 434.] AYES. [11.35 p.m. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Perring, William George Atkey, A. R. Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Glyn, Major Ralph Pratt, John William Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Purchase, H. G. Barlow, Sir Montague Gregory, Holman Rankin, Captain James S. Barnett, Major R. W. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Barnston, Major Harry Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Hallwood, Augustine Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Llv'p'l,W.D'by) Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill) Bennett, Thomas Jewell Hanna, George Boyle Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Breese, Major Charles E. Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Bridgeman, William Clive Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Shortt, Rt. Hon E. (N'castle-on-T.) Brown, Captain D. C. Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Smith, Harold (Warrington) Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Bruton, Sir James Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Hood, Joseph Steel, Major S. Strang Carr, W. Theodore Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Sturrock, J. Leng Casey, T. W. Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Sutherland, Sir William Chadwick, Sir Robert Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Jephcott, A. R. Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers Clough, Robert Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Tryon, Major George Clement Coats, Sir Stuart Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Cobb, Sir Cyril Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Waring, Major Walter Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Conway, Sir W. Martin Lort-Williams, J. Williams, Lieut.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Cope, Major Wm. Loseby, Captain C. E. Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Courthope, Major George L. M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M. Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Wise, Frederick Doyle, N. Grattan Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Edge, Captain William Morrison, Hugh Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Neal, Arthur Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Farquharson, Major A. C. Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Lord Edmund Talbot and Captain Guest. Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Oman, Sir Charles William C. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Parker, James
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. F. D. Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(Midlothian) Billing, Noel Pemberton Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Cairns, John Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Mosley, Oswald Cape, Thomas Hartshorn, Vernon Myers, Thomas Entwistle, Major C. F. Hirst, G. H. Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Glanville, Harold James Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Gretton, Colonel John Lawson, John J. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Grundy, T. W. Lunn, William Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Royce, William Stapleton Swan, J. E. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Sexton, James Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbrdge) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Mr. Hogge and Major Hayward.
REPORT [14th December.]
Resolutions reported,
Navy Supplementary Estimate, 1920–21
1. " That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £6,500,000 be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year
ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for additional Expenditure on the following Navy Services, viz.:—
£ £ Vote 2. Victualling and Clothing for the Navy 870,200 Vote 3. Medical Establishments and Services 31,200 Vote 4. Civilians employed on Fleet Services 108,300 Vote 5. Educational Services 28,200 Vote 6. Scientific Services 2,600 Vote 8. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc.:— Section I. Personnel 1,879,200 Section III. Contract Work 1,829,900 Vote 9. Naval Armaments 1,648,400 Vote 11. Miscellaneous Effective Services 1,016,500 Vote 12. Admiralty Office 374,700 Vote 14. Naval and Marine Pensions, Gratuities, and Compassionate Allowances 271,600 Vote 15. Civil Superannuation, Compensation Allowances, and Gratuities 18,500 8,079,300 Less surpluses on:— Vote 1. Wages, etc., of Officers, Seamen and Boys, Coast Guard, Royal Marines, and Mercantile Officers and Men 295,000 Vote 7. Royal Naval Reserves 30,000 Vote 8. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc.— Section II. Matériel 1,177,300 Vote 10. Works, Buildings, and Repairs at Home and Abroad 55,000 Vote 13. Half Pay and Retired Pay 22,000 1,579,300 Net Amount £6,500,000"
AIR SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1920–21.
2. " That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,935,300, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year
ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for additional Expenditure on the following Navy Services, viz.:—
£ £ Vote 1. Pay, etc., of the Air Force 306,850 Vote 2. Quartering Stores (except technical) Supplies and Transport 237,000 Vote 3. Technical and Warlike Stores 2,748,700 Vote 5. Air Ministry 70,000 3,362,550 Less Surpluses on:— Vote 4. Works, Buildings, and Lands 170,850 Vote 6. Miscellaneous Effective Services 18,000 Vote 7. Half-Pay, Pensions, and other Non-Effective Services 28,000 Vote 8. Civil Aviation 473,300 Vote 9. Experimental and Research Services 737,100 1,427,250 Net Amount £1,935,300"
First Resolution agreed to.
Second Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
Under this Supplementary Estimate the right hon. Gentleman asks for the utilisation of surpluses on certain Air Votes, amounting to a little over £2,000,000 towards meeting the cost of the formation of five additional Squad- rons with the ancillary establishments, and certain other charges. If we examine how this £2,000,000 surplus is made up, it is mainly composed of a saving under Vote 8, Civil Aviation, to the amount of £514,000 odd, and, further, a saving under Vote 9 of a little over £800,000. The net result of this transaction appears to me to be that research work and civil aviation are being sacrificed to a large extent to the exigencies of the military situation. That is to say, the right hon. Gentleman is employing this money for the formation of five additional Squadrons, and he is starving the vital side of research work. I do submit to the right hon. Gentleman that, even from his own point of view, from the purely military standpoint, it is a very short-sighted policy to abandon in a large degree research work to meet the immediate military situation. After all, in these days of the building of capital ships, and other great undertakings that are projected, the work of aerial research becomes more than ever vital, and may result in every great economy. At any moment the Department of Aerial Research—I think the hon. right Gentleman will agree—may happen upon some invention that within twenty-four hours of the outbreak of war would send every capital ship to the bottom of the sea. The future conduct of war, as some of us certainly believe, lies in the air. From the military point of view it is of very great importance, and would be a mistaken policy to abandon the work of aerial research. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to assure the House that this work is not being seriously curtailed, and certainly not because of the demand of the various military commitments into which we have entered.
I do not know whether I shall be in order in moving to reduce this Vote by a nominal sum in order to call attention to the lack of support of civil aviation has received at the hands of the right hon. Gentleman. No opportunity should be lost by Members to draw the attention of the House and the Government to the lamentable state of civil aviation to-day in this country. The right hon. Gentleman took pride the other evening on the fact that he had effected a saving in the sum set aside by the Government for developing civil aviation. Those of us who wish well for the future of the British air service generally will regret one thing, and that is this meagre saving of a few hundred thousand pounds. Consider the cost of one battleship. That money would do more than create a great civil air service which in its turn would do more to hold the sea, and so help to retain our naval and military supremacy than anything else. The subject of civil aviation is one of considerable perturbation in the minds of some hon. Members, who, like the right hon. Gentleman, have the vision to see, but, unlike him, are not hampered by any ulterior motive of the Coalition Cabinet. I quite understand the position the right hon. Gentleman finds himself in in a cosmopolitan political crowd. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I use the phrase in its political sense. What they have done is a calculated compromise from beginning to end. It is perfectly wonderful how they have hung together— I trust they always will do, and, not separately—in all the various projects they have put forward. I do, however, seriously appeal to Members who have never given aviation that serious attention that it honestly deserves, to consider the opinions of the House after the cleansing of a General Election; and to think of the speeches that may be made ten years hence. It may be considered early to prophesy. It is also dangerous to prophesy. No man should make a prophecy unless he feels convinced in his own mind that he can substantiate that prophecy in the days to come. But I do say this, that until this House takes into serious consideration the creation of a civil aviation service, the sustaining of it by all the means in our power, by subsidy in every form—even going so far as to subsidise companies who are prepared to undertake to capture the services abroad, where our stations may be placed—we shall have failed to realise our duty towards posterity in the best sense. Surely the last last War proved to us have the tragedy of "Too Late." The last War proved to us that if we had invested pence a few years before we should have saved thousands of pounds, when the moment for dealing with the problem confronted us. The right hon. Gentleman knows that just as much as I do. I know I am speaking to a convert. I know I am speaking to one heavily chained to office In the phrase of the right hon. Gentleman he had been left without enough fat to fry the commercial air service. Set aside a little of that rare and refreshing fat for the development of civil aviation. I know that, despite the fact that the right hon. Gentleman will go into the Government Lobby against us, though his body will be absent, his heart will be present in our Lobby, and to show him that there are those in this House who are willing to assist him and support him, I trust we shall be able to go to a Division to call attention to the condition of civil aviation in this country, and do what a minority can do by persistence and determination.
I trust the House will give us these Supplementary Estimates. As I pointed out the other day, the matters connected with this Vote can be raised in a more formidable and thorough manner in the passage of the Estimates for 1921–which are to take place in the first two or three months of the next Session. I should like to assure my hon. Friend (Mr. Mosley), who spoke on the subject of research, that there has been no starving of research this year in order to meet the necessities, or the exigencies I should say, of the situation. The reason why there has been under-spending is that a good many people who had claims for compensation and claims for inventions have not made good those claims, and consequently certain sums were left on our hands, and in the second place some of the research work has been deferred till next year, because the various research projects have not developed as rapidly as was expected. There has been no intention of starving research work. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertford (Mr. Billing), who has a partiality for new inventions and old jokes, and who seasons the whole lavishly with mixed metaphors, has greatly reproached me for neglecting civil aviation in order to pour out money on the sterile and blistering sands of Mesopotamia. I can assure him that the present position of civil aviation causes real anxiety to the Government, and I hope to be in the position in announcing the new Estimates next year to give assistance to civil aviation in new forms which will, I trust, sustain it through the difficult years. I have not the slightest doubt about what the ultimate future will be, and it is a question of tiding over a difficult period before civil aviation comes into its own. I am entirely in sympathy with all that has been said. My heart, and I hope my body, will be devoted to that cause in the Lobby on every occasion. I am moved by the fact that the discussion should terminate with the reproach, not that we have spent too much, but because we have not had the audacity to spend more, and I admire the temerity of my hon. Friends in taking this point in view of the fact that the leading representative of the anti-waste policy is present.
Resolution agreed to.
Ways and Means [18th December]
Resolution reported,
" That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1921, the sum of £57,588,994 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
Resolution agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Baldwin.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) (No. 2) BILL,
" to apply a sum out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-one, and to appropriate the further supplies granted in this Session of Parliament," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 274.]
Air Navigation Bill [Lords]
As amended (in the Standing Committee) considered.
NEW CLAUSE (Application of the Act.)
(1) This Act shall not apply to aircraft belonging to or exclusively employed in the service of His Majesty.
Provided that His Majesty may by Order in Council apply to any such aircraft, with or without modification, any of the provisions of this Act or of any order or regulations made thereunder.
(2) Nothing in this Act or in any orders or regulations thereunder shall prejudice or affect the rights, powers, or privileges of any general or local lighthouse authority.— [Mr. Churchill.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
I beg to move " That the Clause be read a Second time."
12 M.
This is a proposal to restore the Clause omitted in Committee. I think there must have been some misunderstanding, because Sub-section (2), which deals with lighthouses, was a provision we had agreed upon between all the lighthouses authorities, including the Trinity House. It safeguards them, and regulates aerial lighthouses from interfering with or unduly hampering the work of the ordinary maritime lighthouse. It would be a great mistake to apply the provisions of this Bill to the Royal Air Force. The Bill deals to an enormous extent with commercial and civil aviation and to a small extent only with military aviation, and to bring the Royal Air Force under its provisions would make very great complications. The intention is to regulate the Royal Air Force in the same way as the Army and Navy are regulated upon strict disciplinary lines, for which the Minister for the time being is responsible and answerable to Parliament. If you place the control of this body within the ambit of a civil instrument of this kind, it would be impossible for us to proceed with the Bill, and we should have to fall back on the general doctrine of Crown prerogative and Crown exemption. There are a series of Regulations for merchant ships which are not applied to the Royal Navy, but that does not mean that the Royal Navy is free to misconduct itself in every direction. It is regulated with the utmost strictness, and people are under a higher and not a lesser discipline than in civil life. We have every intention of making the control of the Air Force as strict in every respect as is provided in this Bill, but it is not correct to bring a military body serving under the direct authority of the Crown within the ambit of a civil measure. For instance, I am told that if this Clause were not re-inserted it would render the Crown liable to prosecution, and it would depart altogether from the general principle that contraventions of the law by servants of the Crown when they are connected with their duties are best dealt with by the military authorities. All these matters are dealt with far better under Regulations, and, of course, the Sub-section, which must be read in conjunction with the power of Sub-section (1), would apply to any such military article in the provisions of this Act, or of any Order or Regulation made thereunder. I trust the House will see that it is entirely out of harmony with the whole trend of legislation and contrary to the fundamental principles on which we have hitherto proceeded in connection with the armed forces of the Crown, to challenge the principle of Crown exemption and to place the Royal Air Force under the civil Regulations which are embodied in this Bill, intended as it is to deal with civil aviation. It is an international instrument to which many countries have acceded, but it is intended not to apply to military aircraft, but to cover the aircraft of civil aviation.
I do not want to resist the new Clause, because I agree generally with what the right hon. Gentleman has said, but I should like an assurance that a certain provision of Clause 9, which concerns so-called trespass, will be fairly administered in the rules and the administration of the rules laid down by the Air Council. Low flying aeroplanes, especially in the country, are a source of irritation to people once the novelty has worn off, and if very strict rules are not made that aircraft must fly at a certain height, not only the noise, but oil dropping may be a great inconvenience. It is very necessary, in the best interests of aviation, that this rule of trespass should be very strictly applied, and I ask for an assurance that this nuisance of low flying will be very strictly checked by the Air Ministry. I am speaking from personal experience. An instance has been brought to my notice where low flying has been irritable to people, and in the best interests of everyone concerned it ought to be very strictly applied.
Possibly the right hon. Gentleman will give an assurance that in future no pilot, whether civil or military, shall be allowed to leave the precincts of an aerodrome without having attained a minimum flying height. The custom is gradually becoming to get off and go away, and it is a common thing to leave an aerodrome perhaps at 300 or 400 feet, and really on the first mile of his flight to gradually attain his flying height. That is an exceedingly dangerous practice. I should like an assurance that it will be laid down that pilots shall not be allowed to leave the precinct; of an aerodrome until they have a flying height commensurate with their load. In the case of the lightly loaded aeroplane of 4 lbs. to the foot, it is another matter, but it is the custom now to load aeroplanes up to 11, 12 and 13 lbs. to the foot, which gives them a very low efficient lining angle and makes it particularly desirable that they should have a considerable height before leaving the comparatively safe landing ground they have at their disposal. Had the machine to which a regrettable accident occurred a week ago attained a height of 3,000 to 4,000 feet before it left the aerodrome, the accident would never have occurred. In the interest of civil aviation and of the people who have to live underneath aeroplanes, it would be a very useful regulation.
This matter is raised on a subsequent Clause, and it will be more convenient for me to deal with it when that point is reached.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
CLAUSE 3.—(Special provisions which may be made by Order in Council.)
(1) Without prejudice to the generality of the powers hereinbefore conferred an Order in Council under this Part of this Act may make provision—
(d) as to the keeping and form of the register of British aircraft;
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1) to leave out paragraph (d).
This paragraph deals with the keeping in form of the register of British aircraft. At present the register that is being kept is not satisfactory. It is compiled by Lloyds for insurance purposes, and it is called the Lloyds' Aviation Record. It gives the details of every machine, the name of the owner, the type of machine, the type of engine, registration number, marks, date when commissioned, and other small details, but the particulars as to the number of hours flying done, crashes, alterations and reconstruction of the machine are not put in the register, and therefore for the purposes of purchase or of real insurance the register, as kept at present, is of little use, and these additional particulars for which I am pressing, which ought to be kept in this register, should be obtained from the pilots' log hooks. Pilots under a previous Act have to keep a log book for their owners—I am dealing with commercial machines—and, as in the case of merchant ships, they could be deposited at the Air Ministry and all these details should be filled in from them. I would not press for it in the case of the small pleasure machines, but in the case of the big commercial machines in which we are specialising now, that might well be done. It is done in the case of merchant vessels, and if this register is to be of real service to the aviation world the same principle ought to be applied to aircraft. Also it is very necessary that this list should be as official as possible. Lloyd's Register for merchant ships is an official document. I do not know if this Aviation Record is. It ought to be made official, and at the same time we ought to have a real official list of pilots with their experience and attainments, and so on. It is very necessary indeed. We have the list kept by Captain Swinton, one of the officials of the Air Ministry, but it is more or less unofficial. There is, of course, a list of Air Force pilots, but I am now referring to pilots in civil employment, and some official list is badly needed.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I am afraid the hon. and gallant Gentleman has not read in detail the Convention which is intimately wrapped up with this Bill, because the points he asks for an answer to are summed up in Annexe A, which deals very extensively not only with registration, but in very great detail with such things as the marks which should be put on aeroplanes and such things as log-books. He will there find the details he is asking for as to the history of each machine's repairs. The thing has been gone into in very great detail. All machines have their nationality mark, such as Great Britain, G, the United , States of America, N, but until this Bill is passed this actual register and the keeping of such a register is not compulsory, but the moment we finish the Third Reading the thing automatically comes into existence.
I do not know whether the hon. and gallant Gentleman is speaking in his capacity of Private Secretary to the Air Ministry or as a private Member. It would be interesting to know, because we should know then what importance to attach to the assurance he has given the House. Are we to understand that the points which have been raised by the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) as to the minute details of all crashes and incidents will be entered in a record kept at Lloyd's because if so I should have thought his own experience of aviation would have taught him how absolutely futile such a proposition really is. A machine very rarely lands unless some incident occurs, perhaps the breaking of a landing wire, or the bursting of a tyre, straining of the drift wires or lift wires, which is the only way a pilot must enter in his book. If an accident happens, which may be regarded as a "crash," in modern machines it is so great that very little of the original aeroplane is left when it comes back from the repair shop. If the machine had an ordinary life it would lead to a great amount of delay to record every thing that happens, and would utterly confuse any prospective purchaser, and I do not think it would serve any useful purpose. If it was provided, as it may be by the Bill, that an airworthy certificate was given from time to time, anyone might purchase with a certain amount of confidence that the aeroplane was in trim and airworthy, if the certificate of airworthiness had been recently granted. Even in that case, however, there would be an element of danger, because the life of an aeroplane is some-times so brief that the machine may be passed as airworthy at 10 o'clock in the morning, and at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, by a bad landing, it may be rendered unairworthy, and may have suffered a strain which nothing short of rebuilding may put right. I think it is a little early to keep an absolute record of every incident that may happen to an aeroplane from the moment it is out on its experimental test to the time it changes hands for the second or third time. Therefore, in all due respect to the assistance which the hon. Member always gives to aviation, I must say that if his suggestion was embodied in the Bill it might be very vexatious, and I do not think it would be very valuable.
The hon. Member for Central Hull wishes to leave out paragraph (d) in order, apparently, to get a much more careful and well-organised registration of aircraft. The effect of his Amendment would be to deprive the Secretary of State of the power of ordering such a register to be kept under the authority of the Air Ministry, and providing that the public should have opportunities of inspecting it. Therefore, the hon. and gallant Member would be defeating the object he has in view if his Amendment were accepted. The hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Billing) thinks that it will hamper aviation if we have too elaborate a register. He wishes, in order to carry his point of view, to maintain the paragraph in the Bill. One hon. Member wants to have a strict registration, and for that purpose he wants to leave out the paragraph, while the other hon. Member wants a lax registration and insists that the paragraph should stand in the Bill, thereby rendering such strict registration possible.
Not compulsory.
Both hon. Members have expressed opinions in the opposite direction from that which they desire. We can all unite in the fact that it is very much better to take the powers now to set up the register and complete the registration step by step as the practical business conditions render it possible and necessary.
Is it intended to make the present register which is being kept at Lloyd's official?
I am not sure whether it will not be better to have the register transferred to a Government Department responsible to this House. It might well be that the Air Ministry should be the Department, but I think it is a matter which we may fairly leave to the discretion of the Regulations and the general Parliamentary conduct of the Air Service.
Is there to be any co-ordination between the proposed register and the Overseas Dominions? Does the register of British machines embody South African, Australian, and New Zealand machines?
Yes, the Dominions are signatories; but it is for them to pass their own legislation. It would be entirely contrary to our method of carrying on Parliamentary business to legislate for them.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
CLAUSE 4.—(Application to British possessions, etc.)
(1) His Majesty may by Order in Council extend, with any necessary modifications and exceptions, any of the provisions of this Act to any British possessions other than those mentioned in the Schedule to this Act, and to any territory under His Majesty's protection:
Provided that the expression " territory under His Majesty's protection " shall not include any territory in respect of which a mandate of the League of Nations is exercised by the Government of any part of His Majesty's Dominions mentioned in the. Schedule to this Act.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 7.—{Special powers in case of emergency.)
(1) In time of war, whether actual or imminent, or of great national emergency, the Secretary of State may by Order regulate or prohibit, either absolutely or subject to such conditions as may be contained in the Order, and notwithstanding the provisions of this Act or any Order or Regulations made thereunder, the navigation of all or any descriptions of aircraft over the British Islands or any portion thereof, or the territorial waters adjacent thereto; and, without prejudice to the generality of this provision, any such Order may provide for taking possession of and using for the purposes of His Majesty's naval, military or air forces any aerodrome or landing ground, or any aircraft, machinery, plant, material or things found therein or thereon, and for regulating or prohibiting the use, erection, building, maintenance or establishment of any aerodrome, flying school, or landing ground, or any class or description thereof.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "any" [" forces any aerodrome "] to insert the word "subsidised."
The object of this Amendment is to make it possible under this Clause to take over any subsidised aeroplane. That is because I think that the system which applies to merchant vessels suitable for use as armed merchant cruisers in time of war would be a good one to apply to aircraft. This year we have paid for the right of pre-emption of merchant cruisers in the case of the "Mauretania" alone £90,000. In other directions we have for many years subsidised mail contracts, and we passed only a short time ago a Bill for the carriage of mails between Holyhead and Kingstown for 20 years at £100,000 a year. I feel that we are not treating the Air Service fairly if we are not prepared to subsidise suitable aircraft for war purposes. In the early days of sea navigation merchant vessels were little different from war vessels, but as the technical skill of seamen improved the two types tended to recede further from each other, and to-day you have got the greatest possible difference between the cargo-carrying merchant steamer and the ocean-going cruiser or warship. I believe that to-day we are getting to the same state of affairs with regard to aircraft. I think it will be found that whereas we require handiness and speed in the war plane, in a cargo or passenger-carrying aeroplane a greater degree of stability and trustworthiness will be aimed at. Therefore it will be a real sacrifice in the future to keep up fast aircraft suitable for the higher branches of aerial warfare. From that point of view the right hon. Gentleman may gibe at me for advocating more warfare and bloodshed, but that will leave me cold because I do not believe that the next war between nations will be fought out. If fools start wars, there will be revolutions at the finish. What I am really out for is the development of the highest art of flying for these islands, because I believe that it will lead to the greatest progress for the human race, but I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not say that we cannot afford the money. He has underspent the money voted by this House for civil aviation this year to the tune of £514,900. If some of this money had been used for subsidising suitable aircraft for war purposes, it would have been very well spent indeed. The excuse is always made, in reference to our civil aviation, that the British climate is unsuitable for flying. That is so, possibly. For that reason it will demand a higher excellence in flying, just as in the past, when sea navigation was in its infancy, the Mediterranean countries, with their certain and settled climates, developed the galley, and were the earlier mariners when we were unable to leave our shores. Yet in the long run our people surpassed them, although the climate was against us. So if we help our aviators to-day, possibly they will surpass those in any other country because the climate is against them; but they need help, and I believe in this system of subsidies instead of subsidising ships like the " Mauretania," which, for modern purposes, are not worth the money for naval purposes. Anybody who knows what happened in the War will agree that these great cruisers un-armoured below the water line, were not worth the money. The money would have been better spent in subsidising a thousand of these aeroplanes suitable for war. I ask the Government to look at this matter, which I put forward in a most friendly manner, with a sympathetic eye.
I beg to second the Amendment.
In my opinion it is possibly the most important Amendment that could be put in this Bill. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will concede this little to civil aviation. If it is carried it will place the Government in this position, that if they wish to rely on civil aviation in time of war they will be obliged to subsidise it in time of peace. This Bill does nothing for civil aviation. It admits that civil aviation is dying on the doorsteps of the War Office, and in the same breath says, "We are not going to help you with a penny. We are going to let you gang your own gait." We are retaining the power to collar everything that civil aviation has done by its own private effort with no subsidy at all. I hope the hon. Gentleman will press this Amendment to a Division. If the Government refuses to accept this Amendment 1 will have no faith in what the right hon Gentleman tells us we are going to do next year. The Government's agreed policy is procrastination. Here is an opportunity for it to prove that it is in earnest about civil aviation. If the right hon. Gentleman refuses to accept this Amendment he says to the House that he does not intend to support civil aviation in any way whatsoever, because if he does intend to support it the first thing he ought to do is to hold out his hand to those men who are building aeroplanes. I think that the aeroplane will abolish war by making war so terrible that no body will wish to conduct it. When the aeroplane is developed as a war machine to such an extent that it can bring the bloody horrors of war to the politician's back door within half an hour of declaring it—
I do not see what that has to do with the Amendment.
May I respectfully submit to you that the idea of subsidising civil aeroplanes for war purposes, for example, is done to enable them to—
This Amendment will not subsidise a single aerodrome.
Aeroplane.
It will not subsidise a single aeroplane. What applies to aerodromes applies to aeroplanes.
Should it succeed in subsidising aeroplanes, I respectfully submit—
I beg pardon. I have inserted it in the wrong place, but the effect of it will not be to subsidise any aircraft at all, because you cannot subsidise aircraft without paying money by simply inserting an Amendment of this kind.
I appreciate the point. The point I was endeavouring to make was the very fact that they are taking power to get control of these aeroplanes in time of war is tantamount to stating that they realise their possibilities, and it is because they ask that they should have the benefit of civil aviation and its development in time of peace that I am suggesting that we should make the condition that in exchange for this they should subsidise them in time of peace. I am quite convinced that if this Amendment is carried every machine which is built will receive a Government subsidy. If the Government do not grant this Amendment I do not think that one Member of the House could believe for one moment that they are taking civil aviation seriously or are going to aid it in any way. All we are asking is that aircraft which are required by the Government in time of war shall be subsidised in time of peace. Possibly I am wasting the time of the House, and the right hon. Gentleman is only waiting to jump up with alacrity and say that this will be accepted. If he does not, my faith in the right hon. Gentleman for the future of the Air Service is gone, and any glimmering of hope that I may have had that he really had at heart an earnest desire to foster civil aviation in this country is also gone if he refuses this, the first practical opportunity he has had of giving expression to this belief. If he does not accept the Amendment many hon. Members will no longer regard him as a supporter of civil aviation.
The effect of this Amendment is to destroy the Government's powers to commandeer ordinary aircraft in emergency. We must have powers to commandeer aircraft in emergency. As for inserting these words about subsidising aircraft, it would not be necessary to bring in the Bill, because the conditions of their employment could be regulated by the conditions of the subsidy. The Government must have the power to commandeer aircraft, for the safety of the country requires it. We are being kept until this late hour of the night, when there are many important Clauses to be discussed, by hon. Members challenging the obvious right of the nation to commandeer aircraft.
Amendment negatived.
CLAUSE 8.—{Establishment of aerodromes by Air Council and local authorities.)
(1) The Air Council, and any local authority to which this Section applies with the consent of the Air Council, and subject to such conditions as the Air Council may prescribe, shall have power to establish and maintain aerodromes (including power to provide and maintain roads and approaches, buildings and other accommodation and apparatus and equipment for such aerodromes) and to acquire land for that purpose, by purchase or hire, in the case of a local authority by agreement, and in the case of the Air Council either by agreement or in accordance with the provisions of this Act as to the acquisition of land by the Air Council. Land may be acquired by a local authority under this Section either within or without the area of the authority.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "aerodromes" [" and maintain aerodromes "], to insert the words" and aircraft."
This Amendment would not only give municipalities power to establish and maintain aerodromes, but would also give them power, if they wished, to run their own municipal air service. I do not know what reasons, if any, the Government will put forward for refusing this Amendment, because it seems perfectly absurd that a great municipality like Manchester or Liverpool or my own city, Hull, which is forward in this sort of activity, should not be allowed, if they wish, to run their own air service. If they find it pays them to run aircraft for the convenience of business men and letters and so on between, say, Manchester and London, I do not see any reason why the Government should object to them doing it. This might possibly be the saving of civil aviation. Some of the go-ahead municipalities of the north of England, Scotland, and so on, Dundee for example, might come forward and give the necessary fillip at this moment and do much to stave off the ruin that is threatening civil aviation. As long ago as July, Edinburgh and Sheffield had actually introduced Private Bills to enable them to carry out undertakings of this sort. I am not quite convinced that they wished to carry out the running of aircraft, but they wished to have the power to establish aerodromes. This is not a new principle by any means. I would remind the House that in the very early days of our Navy we relied very considerably on municipal fleets. The Cinque Ports used to have to maintain their own municipal fleets for the defence of the country. In the days of Henry VII the Navy consisted of a few King's ships and the municipal fleets of the Cinque Ports and other towns. My own constituency of Hull had its own fleet and the Mayor is still Admiral of the Humber and flies his own flag on certain occasions. This principle of a municipal service of this sort is a very ancient one indeed, and we would be very well advised to give municipalities the power to establish their own municipal air services. Suppose Blackpool wished to run an air service in the summer between Blackpool and Douglas. Or suppose the Isle of Man people wished to run one from Douglas to Blackpool. I suppose they could not do so because they have got Home Rule. Why should they not? It would all give employment to some of our own magnificent airmen who are learning farming, wood turning, market gardening, and so on—a perfectly disgraceful state of affairs. A friend of mine was at some of these training classes of the Ministry of Labour the other day. There were six pilots who could fly anything learning book-keeping and accountancy. If the municipalities would employ people of that sort the Government ought to be thankful to them, and I am sure the ratepayers would soon stop them if they did not pay. If the municipalities can run their own roads and buildings, let them go one step further and run their own aeroplanes.
I beg to second the Amendment. The hon. and gallant Member has made his case very clear, and possibly the right hon. Gentleman will tell us why he distinguishes between aeroplanes and other services. The municipalities run trams, motor cars, chars-à-banc, boats on rivers, and we have the historic precedent even for the running of fleets. Does the right hon. Gentleman think that possibly one of these large cities will become so democratic as to endanger the existence of the air fleets? What is behind this bottling down of the Air Service? Those of us who know recognise that half-a-dozen aeroplanes could keep the people of such a city as London indoors. We know that aeroplanes could be mishandled, but I hope that will not be brought forward as a reason against this proposal. I like to see private enterprise, and I also like to see everything done to foster this anæmic child, and nothing which this House is doing is tending to nurse it. It is left to one or two independent Members in this House to help it as much as they can. The municipalities must run aeroplanes as some people run channel fleets. Why should it not be done? Surely the Government might pay this House the compliment of giving reasons against it. The reasons given against the last Amendment were totally inadequate, and I trust that the arguments we shall get with regard to this will, at any rate, appeal to our reason and not merely to our belief. I would like to suggest that any municipal authority prepared to do this should receive a Government subsidy for doing it. Let the large municipal authorities start their own aerodromes, out of the rates if necessary, and let them generally develop aviation through out these islands with as little direct cost to the taxpayer as possible.
The proposal of the Bill is to enable municipal authorities to run aerodromes in the neighbourhood of their cities and towns, and some people have doubts as to whether that is a proper service for municipalities to undertake. Now it is suggested that they should go further and that power should be taken to enable them to run lines of aircraft. As far as I know, no municipality has the slightest desire for such wide powers, whereas we know that several municipalities have asked for powers to obtain aerodromes. It would be overweighting the Bill, I am sure, if we were to put upon every municipality the power to run an air fleet out of the rates, and I could not possibly accept an Amendment which I do not think would benefit aviation, and would possibly only overburden the Bill.
Under this Bill would not a municipal body be allowed to keep one aeroplane? Surely no aerodrome is complete without one aeroplane to send out.
Amendment negatived.
CLAUSE 9.—{Trespass, nuisance, and responsibility for damage.)
No action shall lie in respect of trespass or in respect of nuisance by reason only of the flight of aircraft over any property at a reasonable height above the ground, subject to weather and other conditions or the ordinary incidents of such flight, so long as the provisions of this Act and any Order made thereunder and of the Convention are duly complied with; but where material damage or loss is caused by an aircraft in flight, taking off, or landing, or by any person in any such aircraft, or by any article falling from any such aircraft, to any person or property on land or water, damages shall be recoverable from the owner of the aircraft in respect of such damage or loss, without proof of negligence or intention or other cause of action, as though the same. had been caused by his wilful act, neglect or default, except where the damage or loss was caused by or contributed to by the negligence of the person by whom the same was suffered:
Provided that, where any damages recovered from or paid by the owner of an aircraft under this Section arose from damage or loss caused solely by the wrongful or negligent action or omission of any person carried in the aircraft, nothing in this Section shall prejudice or affect any right of the owner to recover from that person the amount of such damages, and in any such proceedings against the owner the owner may, on making such application to the court and on giving such undertaking in costs as may be prescribed by rules of court, join any such person as aforesaid as a defendant, but where such person is not so joined he shall not in any subsequent proceedings taken against him by the owner be precluded from disputing the reasonableness of any damages recovered from or paid by the owner.
Where any aircraft has been bonâ-fide demised, let, or hired out for a period exceeding fourteen days to any other person by the owner thereof, and no pilot, commander, navigator, or operative member of the crew of the aircraft is in the employment of the owner, this Section shall have effect as though for references to the owner there were substituted references to the person to whom the aircraft has been so demised, let, or hired out.
I beg to move, to leave out the words " reasonable height above the ground, subject to weather and other conditions," and to insert instead thereof the words, " height above the ground which, having regard to wind, weather, and all the circumstances of the case, is reasonable."
This is a purely drafting Amendment which embodies the substance of the Amendments put down by the hon. Member for Central Hull, and adopted by the Standing Committee. The new words are considered to be better.
May I ask whether this is the Amendment which the hon. Member mentioned earlier in the evening when he referred to the height above ground?
This is a purely drafting Amendment, which puts into the best Parliamentary phraseology the Amendment of the hon. Member for Hull.
I am asking a straight-forward question. A little earlier we were speaking of the question of reaching a certain height before breaking away from the aerodrome, and the right hon. Gentleman said, "There is an Amendment later on with which I shall deal." Is this the Amendment?
No, Sir; this is purely a drafting Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move to leave out the words "carried in the aircraft, nothing in this Section shall prejudice or affect any right of the owner," and to insert instead thereof the words "other than the owner or some person in his employment, the owner shall be entitled."
This Amendment is to make clear that the owner has' the right of recovery against the actual offender. For instance, if a passenger in an aeroplane threw out a bottle which damaged a city or a child, the owner of the aeroplane would have an action against such an unruly passenger. It might be also that a person might put himself in the path of an aeroplane and force the aircraft to swerve and so run into a crowd of people. There are matters which would have to be decided by the Courts, and the presumption of negligence in the first place would be on the owner.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the Bill be now read the Third time."
I apologise for rising at so late an hour, but I think at this late stage I am entitled to say a word in criticism. This Bill gives effect to a Convention, and from the start of our discussions no one has dealt with the Convention which is really at the bottom of the whole Bill. If it was not for the Convention we should not have the Bill. The Convention lays down some curious, and I maintain, some contentious ideas. First of all it lays down what is so dear to the lawyer and what is so ridiculous in practice, that is, the theory of Usque ad cœlum — the ownership of the air infinitely upwards. We have given up our old ideas like Territorial Waters to a distance of three miles; here we are going on for ever. Many of us who hoped that in the air there was a medium of true internationalism have been disappointed by the deliberations of this International Commission. In the first article is laid down this exclusive sovereignty over the air, but then there is a shred of hope— a pious Resolution which says:
" Each contracting State undertakes in time of peace to accord freedom of innocent passage above its territory to the aircraft of the other contracting States."
That means that we can fly from one end of the earth to the other. But immediately after comes in the direction, which says:
" Provided that conditions laid in the present Convention are observed "—
So that we are in that ridiculous position of not being able to fly across Europe without landing at every small State we have created since the War. There is also created in this Convention a new body in which there is very great hope, namely, what is called the I.C.A.N.—the International Commission for Air Navigation. This is a body which corresponds to the Aerial Board of Control, visualised by Kipling in "The Night Mail." Although it has the most astonishing powers and will be become more useful year by year, yet there has been made the mistake in this Convention of mixing the whole thing up with the League of Nations. The Convention has nothing whatever to do with the League of Nations. It is a much more practical body than that. This I.C.A.N, has real power, not moral power only. Another thing I must criticise in this Convention with which we are dealing in this Bill is the conspiracy against our late enemies. There is an actual machinery in this Convention to prevent our late enemies coming in to what is not a national or international Convention so much as a practical, businesslike arrangement between nations. We have it that no one who is a late enemy can come in until 1923, and even after that can only come in with a three-fourths majority. This is an arrangement which hurts us much more than it hurts Germany in preventing her coming in. Germany has had lately the real blessing imposed upon her. We have destroyed all her engines and all her aircraft, with the result that she starts fair to-day with that great blessing of new ideas and not old machines. That is what we have suffered from in this country, and what has ruined in a large way our own civil aviation. I know that until this Bill is passed this Convention does not come into operation. We start on our international effort of controlling aircraft very late. Until all these countries pass this particular Convention nothing can actually be done, and already the spirit of goodwill which there existed between many of us, really to get together on this subject, is passing, and we are beginning to mistrust each other. I do hope that in some way we will be able, first of all, to get the control of the world's aircraft right away from the League of Nations, and, secondly, to get our late enemies into it on a business and practical basis.
I only want to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question. Can he hold out any hope for subsidising aircraft suitable for war purposes for civil aviation. We have given him power in this Bill to take over all aircraft, and I really think that some more help should be given in this direction. The Committee that was sitting to consider the best means of assisting civil aviation did not, I fear, cover specifically the matter in the way I am now proposing. The right hon. Gentleman, speaking at the Air Conference luncheon in October, used these words: Take the example of the two German super-Zeppelins. On the Air Estimates I asked the right hon. Gentleman if no commercial company was going to take over these two airships. They are splendid vessels, and are rotting. I do not think there is a great future for the airship, but for some years, at any rate, it has utility. Is there no possibility of some company taking over these airships with a subsidy, just as we subsidise the Cunard Company for their merchant steamers?
1.0 A.M.
That really is a constructive suggestion. It has, no doubt, been considered. It seems a world of pities that these two vessels should be lying there idle, and I think the most suitable way in which we can help craft of this sort is by paying a subsidy on the lines I have suggested. If the right hon. Gentleman can give us a word of sympathy it would help the industry and the country. Short as we are of money, and carefully as we have to look at every penny we spend to-day on armaments, much of the money we spend on obsolescent battleships and the like might be spent with much greater value to the Empire in one of the ways I have suggested. The right hon. Gentleman has refused even to allow municipalities to run their own aeroplanes. It is not compulsory. He rather misread our meaning. The Clause said:
It must be gratifying to the Government to find that the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy), who voted against them the other evening on the question of the limitation of expenditure, has now decided that it is essential they shall incur further expenditure with a view to subsidising aeroplane and other aircraft. At the same time, I feel sure there is a great deal of wisdom in the remarks he has made, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State will see fit to give consideration to the suggestions he has advanced.
I am glad to see the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull is becoming an Imperialist. He speaks of the great future of out Empire and of the air, and I think he is rapidly becoming converted to the opinions that some of us hold on this side of the House. But I rose to call attention to the Second Reading speech that the hon. and gallant Member for Chatham (Colonel Moore-Brabazon) made on this Third Reading Debate. His is a speech in which, to the best of his ability, he destroyed the whole fabric of the Bill, but he omits till the Third Reading to deliver that speech, when it could be of no value whatever, even if it was proposed to divide on it. He tells us the Bill is futile. Of course the Bill is futile. We all know it is futile. The majority of legislative measures which we have passed through the House in the last six months have been futile, and this is another case. The fact has been pointed out, that in flying across Europe to-morrow, you will have to land in every little tin-pot State .—with the wind under your tail and carrying a ground speed of perhaps 300 miles an hour—and spend three-quarters of an hour in reporting yourself to the authorities, shows that the Bill is really Gilbertian. It ought to be set to music. That is my opinion of it, and that is the opinion of all the men outside the House who take any interest in aviation. The big points have all been missed, and the pettifogging, twopenny-halfpenny points, which are only irritants to men of a broad vision, who have the interest and the future of aviation at heart are kept in. It is an insult. What are we going to do about airships? We have got two of the very best airships, the last thing that the ingenuity of the Germans could produce—they are miles ahead of us in airships—and we are letting them rot. Why are we not carrying out experiments with these airships as parent ships for fast aeroplanes? The right hon. Gentleman knows quite well that it is perfectly practicable to use one of these large airships as a parent ship for a dozen or more aeroplanes, for allowing pilots to practise fishing up wires? For many years to come airships will have their practical utility in war, and presumably that is what we are preparing for, though we always haggle the point and tell ourselves, in face of all the money we are spending, that we are not going to think of another war. Surely everybody who says that knows that he is talking with his tongue in his cheek, and it might be useful if he bit it, and so be brought to his senses. The Member for Chatham, who is the Private Secretary of the right hon. Gentleman the Air Minister—and I admit the Air Minister had the kindness to leave the House while the speech was being made—made a most devastating speech against his pet Bill. It was perfectly obvious when he sat down that though he had aided and abetted this Bill through Second Reading, through Committee, and through Report, that on the Third Reading he had taken the opportunity of tearing it to pieces. It is no good dividing against a Bill and putting hon. Members to further discomfort from a small Lobby, but if any hon. Member will tell with me, so that we may put on record in the interests of the future of the Air Service of our country what is our opinion of this abortive measure, I shall challenge a Division, and I trust we shall be able to put a small Lobby in against it. Further, I hope that" every Member who goes into that Lobby will realise that it is the Lobby where imagination is, and that the other Lobby will be the place for those of sloth and lack of vision.
Question, " That the Bill be now read the Third time," put, and agreed to.
Bill read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Juries (Emergency Provisions) Bill [Lords.]
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, " That the Bill be now read a Second time."
This is quite a minor Bill, of a very technical character. It appears that in certain places jurors have by mistake been irregularly summoned, and the simple purpose of this little measure is to validate the past and to provide for the future.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a Second time.
Resolved, " That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill.— [Sir G. Hewart.]
Bill accordingly considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Administration of Justice Bill. [Lords.]
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, " That the Bill be now read a Second time."
This also is a Bill of a technical character, which has passed through all its stages in another place, and perhaps I need refer at this late hour only to one of its provisions. That is the first Clause, which provides, subject to certain conditions, that divorce cases may be tried at assizes. The Clause does not, of course, enable any person who is not at present entitled to a divorce to obtain one, but it makes it simpler, quicker and cheaper for a person to obtain the divorce to which he is entitled.
This is a measure which, as the Attorney-General remarked in introducing it, is a very technical one. At the same time, it embodies a great number of reforms of striking importance in legal administration. I only desire to say that I have complete confidence in the Attorney-General to do only what is appropriate to this House, and also in the Leader of the House, and as I recognise that there must be some special circumstances which make it desirable that this measure should go through, I yield to their much better judgment in the matter, and assent to the Second Reading. But I do hope this will not be taken as a precedent, and that it will not be thought that these reforms have only to be suggested to this House to require them to go through automatically. With these expressions of opinion I make no further comment.
I will not detain the House at any length, but I desire to support the last speaker. The right hon. and learned Attorney-General has referred to the first Clause, which, I think, is the most important in the Bill, and one to which, so far as I am concerned, I give the very heartiest support of which I am capable. There are other provisions in the Bill on which, under normal circumstances, it would have been desirable to have had considerable examination. But in view of what the hon. Member has just said, and of what I know the Attorney-General would have told us had it been necessary, I can quite appreciate, for various reasons, the exceptional course that has been taken with this Bill, and, under the circumstances, I desire to follow the example of the last speaker, and offer no opposition.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a Second time.
Resolved: "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill."— [Sir G. Hewart.]
Bill accordingly considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 (Power to try matrimonial causes at assizes) and 2 (Trial by Jury in the High Court), ordered to stand part of the Bill
CLAUSE 3.—(Trial by jury in county courts and other inferior courts of civil jurisdiction.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
We are surely entitled to have some little explanation in regard to this Clause. It is a very important matter, and apparently provides for trial by jury in County Courts and other inferior Courts of civil jurisdiction. I think that the Committee is entitled to some small explanation.
I can explain this Clause quite simply. The Clause deals with trial by jury in County Courts and other inferior Courts of civil jurisdiction. As my hon. and gallant Friend is no doubt aware, under two Sections of the Juries Act, 1918, the matter of trial by jury in Courts of that kind was, subject to necessary changes, dealt with in the same way as in the High Court. This Clause also makes the same provision in regard to these inferior Courts as that which is made by Clause 2 with regard to the High Courts, except that it prohibits juries in cases arising under the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restrictions) Act, 1920. That Act, as my hon. and gallant Friend is aware, is of a temporary character, and may properly be described as war legislation. Cases under it and under the earlier Statutes on the same subject have never been tried with a jury, and it is thought—and, in my opinion, rightly thought—that the appropriate tribunal for these possession cases is a single impartial arbitrator, who will decide promptly and consistently in each case, without recourse to a series of different juries, who might well decide each case without reference to any consistent standard. Moreover, if we were now to import juries into that class of case, the result would undoubtedly be a great increase of the time which these cases take up in County Courts.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clauses 4 (Proceedings before grand jury where department has admitted charge before examining justices); 5 (Amendment as to Admiralty jurisdiction of the High Court), 6 (Power to make rules as to proof), 7 (Procedure of President of Probate, Divorce, and Admiralty Division), and 8 (ex-judges of Supreme Court empowered on resuest of the Lord Chancellor to sit as judges), ordered to stand part of the Bill
CLAUSE 9.—(Enforcement in the United Kingdom of judgments obtained in superior Courts in other British Dominions.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
This matter also, which extends beyond the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom, requires some little explanation as to whether any arrangement has been made, so far, in regard to reciprocity between the Dominions referred to.
My hon. and gallant Friend has invited me, at a somewhat late hour, to embark upon a rather large topic. I will only say that this matter has been most carefully considered by eminent legal authority, and this part of the Bill—Clauses 9 to 14, inclusive—makes provision for the reciprocal enforcement of judgments as between the United Kingdom and other British Possessions. The whole question has been carefully and repeatedly considered at Colonial conferences and otherwise, and I think I can safely say that there will be reciprocity in the matter.
I presume that certain enactments will have to be brought forward before this Clause can become operative between the Dominions?
Not before this Clause can become operative, but no doubt before it can have complete effect.
Question put, and agreed to.
Remaining Clauses and Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Electricity (Supply) (No. 2) Bill
Order for Second Reading read, and discharged; Bill withdrawn.
It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Monday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Eighteen minutes after One o'clock.