House of Commons
Tuesday, December 21, 1920
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Adjournment Motions under Standing Order No. 10
Return ordered, of Motions for Adjournment under Standing Order No. 10, showing the date of such Motion, the name of
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. Date when Closure moved and by whom. Question before House or Committee when moved. Whether in House or Committee. Whether assent given to Motion or withheld by Speaker or Chairman. Assent, withheld because, in the opinion of the Chair, a decision would shortly be arrived at without that Motion. Result of Motion and if a Division, Numbers for and against.
and (2) in the Standing Committees under the following heads:
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Date when Closure moved, and by whom. Question before Committee when moved. Whether assent given to Motion or withheld by Chairman. Assent withheld because, in the opinion of the Chair, a decision would shortly be arrived at without that Motion. Result of Motion, and, if a Division, Numbers for and against.
The Deputy-Chairman. ]
Business of the House
Return ordered showing, with reference to Session 1920, (1) the total number of days on which the House sat; and (2) the days on which Business of Supply was considered (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 236, of Session 1919. — [ The Deputy-Chairman. ]
Private Bills and Private Business
Return ordered of the number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, and Bills for confirm- the Member proposing, the definite matter of urgent public importance, and the result of any Division taken thereon during Session 1920 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 235, Session 1919).— [ The Deputy-Chairman. ]
Closure of Debate (STANDING ORDER No. 26)
Return ordered, respecting application of Standing Order No. 26 (Closure of Debate) during Session 1920 (1) in the House and in Committee of the whole House, under the following heads:
ing Provisional Orders introduced into the House of Commons and brought from the House of Lords, and of Acts passed in Session 1920, classed according to the following subjects:—Railways; Tramways; Tramroads; Subways; Canals and Navigations; Roads and Bridges; Water Waterworks; Gas; Gas and Water; Lighting and Improving; Local Legislation; Corporations, etc. (not relating to Local Legislation or to Lighting and Improvement Schemes); Ports, Piers, Harbours, and Docks; Pilotage; Churches, Chapels, and Burying Grounds; Markets and Fairs; Gaols and other County Buildings; Inclosure and Drainage; Estate; Patent; Divorce; and Miscellaneous:
Of all the Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which in Session 1920 have been reported on by Committees on Opposed Private Bills or by Committees nominated partly by the House and partly by the Committee of Selection, together with the names of the selected Members who served on each Committee; the first and also the last day of the sitting of each Committee; the number of days on which each Committee sat; the number of days on which each selected Member has served; the number of days occupied by each Bill in Committee; the Bills the Preambles of which were reported to have been proved; the Bills the preambles of which were reported to have been not proved; and, in the case of Bills for confirming Provisional Orders, whether the Provisional Orders ought or ought not to be confirmed:
Of all Private Bills and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which, in Session 1920, have been referred by the Committee of Selection, or by the General Committee on Railway and Canal Bills, to the Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means, together with the names of the Members who served on each Committee; the number of days on which each Committee sat; and the number of days on which each Member attended:
And, of the number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders withdrawn or not proceeded with by the parties, those Bills being specified which have been referred to Committees and dropped during the sittings of the Committee (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.002, of Session 1919).— [ The Deputy Chairman. ]
Public Bills
Return ordered, of the number of Public Bills, distinguishing Government from other Bills, introduced into this House, or brought from the House of Lords, during Session 1920; showing the number which received the Royal Assent; the number which were passed by this House, but not by the House of Lords; the number passed by the House of Lords, but not by this House; and distinguishing the stages at which such Bills as did not receive the Royal Assent were dropped or postponed and rejected in either House of Parliament (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.003, of Session 1919).— [ The Deputy-Chairman. ]
Public Petitions
Return ordered of the number of Public Petitions presented and printed in Session 1920; with the total number of signatures in that Session (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.004, of Session 1919).— [ The Deputy-Chairman. ]
Select Committees
Return ordered of the number of Select Committees appointed in Session 1920 and the Court of Referees; the subjects of inquiry; the names of the Members appointed to serve on each, and of the Chairman of each; the number of days each Committee met, and the number of days each Member attended; the total expense of the attendance of witnesses at each Select Committee, and the name of the Member who moved for such Select, Committee; also the total number of Members who served on Select Committees (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.005, of Session 1919).—[ The Deputy-Chairman. ]
Sittings of the House
Return ordered of the days on which the House sat in Session 1920, stating for each day the date of the month and day of the week, the hour of the meeting, and the hour of Adjournment; and the total number of hours occupied in the Sittings of the House, and the average time; and showing the number of hours on which the House sat each day, and the number of hours after eleven p.m.; and the number of entries in each day's Votes and Proceedings.—[ The Deputy-Chairman. ]
Standing Committees
Return ordered for the Session of 1920 of (1) the total number and the names of all Members (including and distinguishing Chairmen) who have been appointed to serve on one or more of the six Standing Committees appointed under Standing Order No. 47, showing, with regard to each of such Members, the number of sittings at which he was present; (2) the number of Bills considered by all and by each of the Standing Committees, the number of days on which each Committee sat, and the names of all Bills considered by a Standing Committee, distinguishing where a Bill was a Government Bill or was brought from the House of Lords, and showing, in the case of each Bill, the particular Standing Committee by whom it was considered, the number of days on which it was considered by the Committee, and the number of Members present on each of those days (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.001, of Session 1919).—[ The Deputy-Chairman. ]
New Writ
For the County of Kent (Dover Division), in the room of VERE BRABAZON PONSONBY, Earl of Bessborough (Chiltern Hundreds).—[ Lord Edmund Talbot.' ]
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Manchuria and Mongolia
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government has any information on the alleged atrocities committed by Japanese troops on the Korean border; whether 15,000 troops sent to Manchuria to maintain order are persecuting Christian communities, destroying their villages and burning their churches; whether His Majesty's Government acquiesces in the assumption by Japan of sovereign rights in Manchuria; and whether His Majesty's Government will state their policy with regard to Japanese territorial claims in Manchuria and Mongolia?
As regards parts 1 and 2 of the question, and the action already taken by His Majesty's Government, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply returned to the hon. Member for Workington on 14th December. His Majesty's Ambassador at Tokyo has already made a representation to the Japanese Government. The number of troops employed is believed to be far less than the hon. Members estimate of 15,000. There has been no question of the assumption by Japan of sovereign rights in Manchuria. British policy in China is based upon the maintenance of the territorial integrity of that country.
Have any representations been made by His Majesty's Government in reference to the alleged persecution of missionaries or the alleged excesses of the Japanese troops?
Perhaps my hon. Friend would give me notice of the question.
Is not our interference in these matters likely to lead us into a number of other expensive little wars?
I do not think so. These matters are regulated under the Anglo-Japanese Agreement.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the attention of His Majesty's Government has been drawn to the reports in the Press as to the action of the Japanese Military Commission in Manchuria in addressing a warning to the Canadian missionaries working in Manchuria that they must change their tactics or abandon their work; whether there is any ground for the assumption that the missionaries aid the Korean malcontents; whether His Majesty's Government have noted the threat that, if British Christians assist the Koreans, Japanese Buddhists are entitled to -assist anti-British Indians; and whether His Majesty's Government propose to take any steps to protect British subjects labouring for the moral and educational advantage and progress of Far Eastern people?
The attention of His Majesty's Government has been called to these reports, and representations have been made to the Japanese Government, with the result that an official disavowal of Colonel Mizumachi's improper utterances was published in Tokyo on 13th December. His Majesty's Government have no reason whatever to suppose that British missionaries are aiding Korean malcontents.
Monthly Bonuses (France)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will call for a report on the application in France of the principle of monthly bonuses to wage earners in proportion to the size of their families?
I have been asked to reply to this question. Some information on the subject referred to by my hon. Friend is contained in the current issue of the Ministry of Labour publication, "Labour Overseas," a copy of which I am sending to my hon. Friend. I understand that the French Ministry of Labour are about to conduct an investigation into the subject. When the English translation of their Report is available I will have a copy sent to my hon. Friend.
Arabia
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state what steps are being taken to clear up the political situation in Yemen and Asir; when it is proposed to send further communications to the Imam Yahya and the Idrissi; what steps are being taken to come to a decision as to the future status of the Yemen; and whether any representations in regard to this have been received either from the Italian Government or from King Hussein?
As regards that part of the question which relates to the Imam Yahya, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply to his question on the same subject addressed to the Prime Minister on 15th November. There has been no change in the situation since that date. The Idrissi, whose country possesses the same status as that of Yemen, is in cordial relationship with His Majesty's Government. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
When are the Foreign Office going to advance from the purely negative position with regard to the Imam which they adopted on 15th November? Will anything be done?
I do not know why my hon. Friend should describe it as a purely negative attitude.
Persia
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Persian Mejliss has yet met; if so, whether it has declined to ratify the Anglo-Persian Agreement; whether the new Persian Government takes the same view of the Agreement as the late Government which negotiated it; and why the later fell?
The Persian Mejliss has not yet met and has therefore had no opportunity of expressing its opinion on the Anglo-Persian Agreement. That Agreement was not negotiated by the late Persian Government but by its predecessor which fell, as did its successor, owing to internal political vicissitudes to which even more stable countries are sometimes exposed. The view taken of the Agreement by the Persian Government is that it is in suspense until the consent of the Persian Parliament has been obtained.
Armenia
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make a statement as to the pre sent Government of Armenia and as to the attitude of the League of Nations to recent developments?
According to the most recent information available Armenia is now under a Soviet form of government, but this change does not appear to have affected the attitude of the League of Nations or their desire to bring about mediation between Armenia and the Turkish Nationalists.
Is our representative of the League of Nations likely to make a statement in this House to-morrow?
I have heard rumours to that effect. Perhaps the hon. Member will put a question to the Leader of the House.
Surplus War Stores
asked the Secretary of State for War how many dumps of War stores still to be sold now remain in this country; and what are the reasons for their not having been disposed of?
I have been asked to answer this question. The stores in this country handed over to the Disposal Board for sale, are not in dumps, but in storehouses and depots belonging to the Ministry of Munitions and other Government Departments. The stores are being sold as quickly as the markets are capable of absorbing them.
Why, in the public interest, are not all these stores, those in dumps and those referred to in the answer to the question, advertised and put up to public auction, so that everyone may be allowed to bid for them in public competition instead of continuing the present hole-and-corner methods of disposing of them?
I do not expect that the hon. Gentleman has been reading the periodical called "Surplus "in which these things are fully advertised. If he had, he would not have said that these stores are disposed of in a hole-and-corner method.
Will the hon. Gentleman call for a return of the food dumps rotting in France at present? The Secretary for War stated that there was quite a number of perishable dumps exposed to the weather, and that he had no facility for doing what my hon. Friend says.
As far as I know, there are no food dumps which are the property of the Government.
Is it not a fact that the great delay in disposing of the material is on account of the slowness of the Disposals Board?
No. It is not the Disposals Board that are responsible.
Is not the reason that those stores are not disposed of the very simple one that people will not bid for them?
That is largely the case at the present moment.
Ireland
Murders and Reprisals
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of his statement on 16th November that no trials have been held on soldiers for being concerned in alleged reprisals, the six non-commissioned officers stated by him on 9th November to have been reduced in rank for using Crossley tenders without permission, but not proved to have been implicated in the damage done to the town of Mallow, were charged with having done any such damage, and was the charge simply one of indiscipline; on what charge, and for what offence, were certain officers censured, and the leave of certain men stopped, in connection with the sack of Fermoy on 28th June, 1920, as stated by him on the 29th July, and whether the House is to understand that at no time in the last 18 months has any soldier been charged with the destruction of property or killing or wounding a civilian?
The non-commissioned officers referred to in the first part of the question were not charged with having done damage to the town of Mallow as there was no evidence implicating them. They were charged and punished for using a Government motor lorry without permission. Certain officers were censured after the disturbance at Fermoy on 28th June, 1920, as it was considered that they had shown lack of judgment in not taking special precautions to prevent the men from breaking out of barracks, and leave was stopped for three months. As regards the last part of the question, three soldiers are being charged with rioting during which a civilian Was wounded.
asked the Secretary of-State for War whether under the martial law now in force in Ireland members of His Majesty's Naval, Military, Air, or Police Forces will be forbidden from burning down property indiscriminately; and what the punishment for such an offence will be?
The answer to the first part of the question is contained in Martial Law Circular No. 1 issued by the Commander-in-Chief the Forces in Ireland on the 16th instant, by which all Forces of the Crown are warned against committing any offence against the person of property of an inhabitant or resident in the country. As regards the second part, Martial Law does not apply to the Military and Air Forces: any offences committed by members of these Forces on active service being punishable under the Army and Air Force Acts respectively. As regards the Navy and Police, I would refer the hon. Member to the Admiralty and Irish Office. Naval and Air Force personnel in Ireland are under the command of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief in Ireland, but for the purpose of discipline, they are subject to their own Acts.
Can we have an assurance that they will not get promotion for any such destructive work in Ireland?
Can the right hon. hon. Gentleman state whether the police in the martial law areas are under the supreme command of the General Commanding?
I cannot add anything to what I have said. If the hon. and gallant Member wants further information perhaps he will put down a question?
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether any of the Naval forces have lost their lives during the operations in Ireland?
That question should be addressed to the Admiralty.
( by Private Notice ) asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, since the proclamation against reprisals by General Macready in the shape of killing of civilians and arson, there have been any cases of the one or the other; how many civilians have been killed by the forces of the Crown since last Saturday, and what were the names and the circumstances; also what were the circumstances under which a farmer named O'Connor was killed?
In answer to the last part of the question, I have asked for a Report concerning the man O'Connor, but I have not yet received it. The total number of civilians reported killed since Saturday (inclusive) is 20. The number shot dead by forces of the Crown is six, in addition to 11 civilian casualties in Nine Mile House ambush, and three cases of murder, two of which were committed by unknown persons. Four were shot dead while attempting to escape, and two were shot after being challenged and refusing to halt. One ex-soldier was found murdered. Thomas Gleeson, an employé of the Tipperary County Council, was murdered by a fellow employé, Joseph Reid. Joseph Walsh, the landlord of a police barracks, was murdered by civilians, who escaped in a motor car; and, as I said, 11 men were shot dead in an ambush during their attack upon the forces of the Crown.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any information as to the murder of William Delany and James Looby, and is he aware that since that murder Looby's brother was dragged out of his house and murdered by the forces of the Crown?
I am not aware of that. I believe the other two were men who have been shot after refusing to halt.
Oh, no. They are entirely different cases. I put the question before about Looby and Delaney, and the right hon. Gentleman said that he would have inquiries made. I should have thought that he would have had the results of those inquiries by to-day. I want to know whether he has made those inquiries, what reply he has received, and how is it he has not received the information about the subsequent murder of Looby's brother?
It is impossible for me to give an answer to all these various question offhand. I do my best to get information. If the hon. Member disputes what I have said, and if he has more accurate information, I shall be glad if he will communicate it to me.
There will be no difficulty about that.
When does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take effective steps to stop this constant murdering of civilians, and is it not a fact that these shootings of people because they refuse to hold up their hands is simply an excuse for murdering these men?
Is it not a fact that the military authorities in Ireland have decided upon a policy of carrying local leaders of the Sinn Fein party in lorries in order to prevent attacks on the lorry; and is he aware that when the same practice was attempted to be introduced by the British forces in the South African War the present Prime Minister denounced it as barbarous and un-Christian?
Yes, that is the policy carried out in certain parts of Ireland.
Can the right hon. Gentleman not conceive, with all the forces of the British Empire at his back, some more humane plan of fighting this battle than carrying out a barbarous policy of this sort?
Is it not a fact that some of these civilians were murdered by Sinn Fein rebels?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that during the War the Admiralty were advised to carry German officers in hospital ships, and the Government refused to do so because it was contrary to the usages of war? Under these circumstances, why are we sinking to these methods now?
We are not sinking to any unworthy methods.
You cannot sink much lower than you have sunk.
Is it not a fact that there is great confusion as to the way the word "civilian" is used? Is it not a fact that in the majority of cases the so-called civilians were men caught in the act of endeavouring to murder forces of the Crown?
I am very glad that my hon. and gallant Friend has given me an opportunity of answering that question. With the exception of three who were murdered by other civilians, seventeen of the men killed during the week end were Sinn Feiners, attacking or endeavouring to avoid arrest by the forces of the Crown.
Does that apply to the cases of Looby and Delaney?
I have already answered that question.
It does not apply to them.
I desire to ask whether the investigation into the circumstances concerning the assassination of the Very Rev. Canon Magner of Dunmanway, in the County of Cork, will be a public one?
I understand it will be a public inquiry, but I must guard myself by saying that this is a question entirely within the discretion of the Court.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that the Press will be admitted to the inquiry?
If it is a public inquiry the Press must be admitted.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say, apart from the trial of the person charged with this crime, what has been done with regard to the other men who were associated with him in the attack on this clergyman?
That is a matter concerning the internal administration and the discipline of the auxiliary forces, and it is being closely looked into.
Is it not a fact that this crime took place near the site of a foul and cruel ambush in which 15 auxiliary police were killed?
Can the Chief Secretary make any statement to the House with reference to the circumstances under which a farmer named O'Connor was placed in a military lorry, subsequently thrown out on to the road and shot at, and afterwards murdered by the military forces of the Crown in the presence of a clergyman? Can he also make any statement in regard to the murder of Michael Walton and Patrick Connor, who were murdered at Newport?
Those are questions of which no notice has been given.
Will the right hon. Gentleman hang up in the tea-room the number of murders of civilians every day by the forces of th Crown in Ireland?
rose —
I think that all the questions of which the hon. Member gave me notice have been asked.
No, Sir, there is one other which I submitted yesterday. It is whether the Chief Secretry can state if the Proclamation issued by General Macready as to the death penalty applies to the Royal Irish Constabulary and to the Black and Tans, and whether it applies to the whole country, and, if not, whether he intends to make the Order general?
I think that question was asked in the general course of questions to-day, and it has been answered.
No, Sir, the question was not asked.
Firearms (Army Officers)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether the officers who were murdered in Dublin four weeks ago had no revolvers with which to defend themselves; whether an Order had been issued that officers should have no firearms in their billets or when travelling by train; and, if so, will he have the Order rescinded and opportunity given to such officers to defend themselves if attacked?
No orders have been issued that officers should not have firearms in their billets or when travelling by train. It is not known whether all the officers who were murdered in Dublin five weeks ago had revolvers, but some of them certainly had. One officer who escaped did not have his revolver with him because he was in his bathroom.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiry as to whether certain Commanding Officers have not issued orders that officers are not allowed to have in their possession revolvers or firearms?
I will make inquiry.
Funeral Expenses (Military Casualties)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether the War Office intend to charge to the relatives the costs of funeral expenses involved in bringing home to Great Britain the bodies of British soldiers killed in execution of their duty in Ireland; and whether, in such cases where money has been paid for these purposes, it will be refunded in order that the relatives of soldiers may be put on the same footing as relatives of police in similar circumstances?
Reasonable expenses of the funerals of soldiers killed in Ireland and brought to this country for burial will be refunded to the relatives. The cost of conveying the bodies to homes in this country will also be defrayed by the War Office. In cases where the expenses are paid by relatives, refunds will be made on the production of evidence of payment.
Disturbances, Cork
asked the Prime Minister whether he is now prepared to set up a special committee of inquiry into recent events at Cork?
A special military court of inquiry has already been set up, and is at present engaged in taking evidence in regard to these events.
That is not an answer to my question. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are aware of that committee? What I asked is whether the Prime Minister is prepared to set up a special committee of inquiry, not this inquiry, and, if he is not, can he give an assurance that before we prorogue on Thursday we shall have an interim report of the Strickland inquiry?
The hon. Member seems to be under the delusion—it may be true of some Governments, but it certainly is not true of this Governmeint—that there is a division in the views of the Government on this matter, that the Chief Secretary says one thing and the Prime Minister another. That is a mistake.
Will my right hon. Friend look at my question, and see that I do not ask about any inquiry that is already in operation? What I ask is whether the Prime Minister is prepared to set up a special committee of inquiry that is not a military inquiry; and, if not, can he say that we shall have the interim report of General Strickland's inquiry before we prorogue on Thursday?
I think my answer dealt with that. The question has already been answered by the Chief Secretary, who has declined to set up a special committee. The Chief Secretary has promised carefully to consider whether he can safely allow the Strickland Report, when we receive it, to be published. We cannot go beyond that.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Employers' Association of Cork, which can in no way be described as a Sinn Fein, but rather as a Unionist, body, has demanded that a public and impartial inquiry shall be made into all the facts surrounding these circumstances?
Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware that the charge at issue in this case is that the forces of the Crown committed these burnings in Cork, and does he think it impartial to set up a military inquiry into a charge made against the military and police themselves?
Yes; I think that under the present conditions in Ireland we are much more likely to get an impartial inquiry under a military court than any other.
Will the right hon. Gentleman not take into consideration the views of the association to which the owners of this property mostly belong, and that is the Employers' Association of Cork?
It is quite right that consideration should be given to the views of anybody concerned, but the Government have the responsibility, and they have come to their decision.
RAILWAYS (DELIVERY or PARCELS)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that the railway companies are refusing to accept parcels for delivery in Ireland except Belfast and its immediate district; and why there is such discrimination against the other portions of the country?
I am not aware that the rail way companies are refusing to accept parcels for delivery in every part of Ireland except Belfast and its immediate district. I am informed that they are ready and prepared to receive parcel traffic for any part of Ireland where the Irish railway company concerned is in a position to deliver to the indicated destination. The unsettled condition of the Irish railway situation has necessarily interfered with the normal free reception of traffic. The limitation of service is entirely occasioned by the action of certain railwaymen in refusing to handle such traffic as was offered, and the remedy for this state of affairs is obvious.
Have the Irish railwaymen ever refused to handle any goods other than Government goods?
I am not aware that they have, but I do not think that makes their conduct any the more praiseworthy.
Will he be able to inform the House of the result of the conference of railwaymen, which was to have taken place to-day in Dublin?
I have not the result to hand, but I hope it will be favourable.
Concerning the statement which the hon. Gentleman has made, that the railway companies are not refusing parcels, may I say that I rang up three railway companies yesterday, and I was refused by every one of them?
British Army
Exhumations, France and Flanders
asked the Secretary of State for War whether soldiers who rejoined the Army in the summer of 1919 for the purpose of carrying out exhumation duties in France and Flanders have been demobilised, and Belgian civilians are being engaged by the Director of Graves to work in their places; and, if so, will he consider the wisdom of retaining the services of soldiers so employed rather than throw them on to the labour market in this country in its present condition?
Soldiers are still employed wherever possible, and the number now serving will be retained for some months.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question, and say whether Belgians are employed instead of British soldiers?
I am not in a position to give that information. I understand that British soldiers are employed as far as possible. There may be some Belgians employed.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that in the present state of the labour market no soldiers will be demobilised to make room for Belgians to be employed?
I cannot add anything to the answer which I have already given. The number already serving will be retained wherever possible.
What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by "wherever possible"? Are there places where it is impossible?
Is there not here a field for employing unemployed men? Could we not send across some of the unemployed to assist?
I shall be very glad to bring that suggestion to the notice of the Minister.
Troops (Arabia)
asked the Secretary of State for War what is the object of keeping British and Indian troops at Hodeidah; and, in the event of withdrawal, whether the city will be handed over to the forces of the Idrissi or of the Imam of Sanaa?
No British troops have been kept at Hodeidah for the last year. There is an Indian battalion there which will be withdrawn as soon as possible. No definite arrangements have been made to hand over the town to any particular authority, but it is possible that the Idrissi, who is in effective occupation of the hinterland, will come to an agreement with the townspeople as regards its administration.
Black Sea Army (Clerks)
asked the Secretary of State for War the number of ladies who have been sent out to the Army of the Black Sea and other areas to serve as clerks; what salaries and allowances they are receiving; whether they have any special qualifications for the work on which they are employed; and whether disabled officers and men who have had experience in military clerical work and administration could be employed instead?
In compliance with a request from the General Officer Commanding the Army of the Black Sea for shorthand typists of superior education capable of dealing with, and being entrusted with, very secret matters, eight ladies have been sent out to Constantinople. Six of them had special experience in intelligence work in the War Office and the other two were very carefully selected. Their salary is £200 per annum plus rations on the Army scale and hostel accommodation. No other lady clerks, so far as I am aware, have been sent to Constantinople or elsewhere, such posts having been given to ex-soldiers.
Were there not any ex-officers with experience of the Intelligence Department who could have been sent instead?
National Reserve
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that the type of men who would join the National Reserve is not the same as of those who would join the Territorial Force, and, in view of the eminent services of the National Reserve during the War, he will reconstitute the National Reserve, or at least give official recognition and support to such units as have preserved up to date an efficient organisation?
This matter is receiving consideration.
Forces in Egypt
asked the Secretary of State for War what has been the reduction in numbers of our forces in Egypt since the Armistice; and what are the present numbers of our forces?
I regret that separate figures for the Army in Egypt and in Palestine at the date of the Armistice are not available. Comparing the total numbers in both countries, however, there has been a reduction of 248,000. The strength of the Army in Egypt only on 1st December last was approximately 30,600. As regards the Royal Air Force, the numbers have been reduced by 5,242 during the period from 1st December, 1918, to 4th December last The strength on the latter date was 2,588.
Missing Troops Traced
asked the Secretary of State for War the number of officers and men of the Imperial forces originally reported missing who have, since the Armistice, been traced as the result of exhumation and other searches by the Imperial War Graves Commission?
It is estimated that in approximately 5,800 cases of officers and men originally reported missing evidence of death has been obtained as a result of the work of the Directorate of Graves Registration and Enquiries, and the number is being added to as the work proceeds.
Constantinople (Motor-Cars)
asked the Secretary of State for War what is the present number of public motor-cars allotted to the British Army in Constantinople?
The number of War Department motor-cars in use by the British Army of the Black Sea is 52. Without making special inquiry of the General Officer Commanding, I cannot say how many of these are actually in Constantinople.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, apparently as the result of a previous question I asked, there was a temporary reduction of these cars by the expedient of transferring them to that part of the Mediterranean Fleet which was then in Constantinople, and will he take steps, in conjunction with the Admiralty, to try to cut down the present waste of motors, petrol and tyres on the so-called Turkish roads?
I am not aware of the suggestion made by the hon. Member, but I will inquire.
Military Stores, Rotherwas
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the War Office whether his attention has been drawn to a report in the Press of a trial at Hereford on 24th, 25th, and 26th November, in connection with the disposal of goods stored at the central stores department at Rotherwas, Hereford; whether under the Regulations employés of the War Office are allowed to trade in goods which are in their charge; and, if not, whether steps will be taken to recover any profit received on the transactions disclosed in this case?
The sale of wood for firewood to employés of the Hereford factory under the War Office is permitted under strict Regulations laid down by the Disposal Board, and no reason is seen for stopping this class of sale, which is a boon to the workers. Employés are not allowed to trade in goods which are in their charge, and no case is known of an employé having purchased firewood with a view to resale.
Deptford Cattle Market
asked the Secretary of State for War why Deptford cattle market is still retained by the Government; whether an approximate sum of £250,000 was spent on improvement; and whether, although it was carried on at a loss by the City Corporation in pre-War days, a yearly rent of £10,000 is being paid for its retention?
The Deptford cattle market is still retained by the Government for use as a supply reserve depot (which before the War was at Woolwich) and for the receipt and despatch of articles included in the ration issued to the troops in the United Kingdom and overseas. I am informed that approximately £280,000 has been spent on improvements by the War Department. The rent paid is £10,000 a year; the agreement gives the Department an option to purchase, and also includes favourable terms as regards reinstatement and conditions of tenure.
Do the Government consider that they made a good bargain in paying £10,000 a year and in spending £250,000 on improvements, for premises which are being carried on at a loss?
I understand that the depot was exceedingly useful during the War, and that the bargain of £10,000 a year was not an unreasonable bargain. With regard to the present, I understand that it is necessary to continue the use of Deptford market.
Trafalgar Square (Public Meetings)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that the care, control, management, and regulation of Trafalgar Square and the ornamental and other works therein were vested in the Commissioners of His Majesty's Works by the Trafalgar Square Act, 1844, and the Crown Lands Act, 1851; that, in exercise of the powers vested in them by the above Acts, regulations have been made by the said Commissioners of His Majesty's Works with regard to the holding of meetings in Trafalgar Square with a view to the public convenience and safety and to the due observance of order; and that under the regulations it is provided that no public meeting may be held in the said square without four clear days' notice to the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis specifying the object of the meeting and further providing that speeches shall not be delivered except from places authorised by the Commissioners of His Majesty's Works; and whether he will see that the national monument to Nelson is not authorised as a place from which speeches of a seditious or revolutionary character may be delivered?
The answer to the first three questions is in the affirmative. As for the last, my right hon. Friend does not propose, as at present advised, to take any action in the matter.
Will the hon. Gentleman say why, on several occasions, I was informed that the Home Secretary had no power under these Regulations, whereas it is expressly provided that speeches shall not be delivered except from places authorised by the Commissioners, and whether, if the Home Secretary is of opinion that poison gas has a purifying effect on the London atmosphere, he will arrange for the speeches to be delivered from the walls of the square or the walls of the fountains, and not from Nelson's monument?
It is impossible to say what kind of speech will be delivered. We know what the speech is only when it is delivered.
Will the hon. Gentleman take steps to stop the ears of the lions?
Regulation No. 2, to which I have referred, provides that the object of a meeting is to be specified before permission is given. What is the good of the Regulation if meetings are held, whatever the object?
Is it not a fact that the Nelson Monument was erected to a man who had a blind eye and covered the other eye when necessary?
Will the hon. Gentleman consider the establishment of a system for giving coupons for permission to make speeches?
If the hon. Member will refer to the answer given to him on the 14th instant, he will see that my right hon. Friend said that there is no power under the Regulation to require any such undertaking, and if the conditions prescribed in the Regulations are fulfilled the meeting must be allowed to be held.
If people misbehave themselves, have not the police the right to prosecute?
That is so.
I have been one of the victims.
Bank Robbery, Leeds
asked the Home Secretary if he can state the place of detention of the man Redfern, an ex-officer of His Majesty's forces, who was convicted of robbery with violence, amounting to murder, in a bank in Leeds?
He is serving his sentence of penal servitude for life in Parkhurst prison.
Birmingham Police (Concert Engagements)
asked the Home Secretary if he is aware that individual Members of the Birmingham Police Force, all of whom are in receipt of a regular minimum wage of £4 9s. per week, plus 9s. rent allowance and other emoluments, are permitted by the Chief Constable of Birmingham to accept engagements at concerts at terms that are considerably below those agreed upon by the concert-givers and the organised professional musicians of the Midlands district; that a large number of professional musicians have to depend upon these private engagements for part of their means of livelihood; and that this competition, which the Chief Constable has admitted is illegal, is causing discontent, hardship, and unemployment amongst those who are thus deprived of a part of their employment; and whether he will have this matter inquired into and a stop put to such competition, in view of the distress now prevailing through unemployment?
I have made inquiry and am informed by the Chief Constable of Birmingham that members of the police force have not accepted musical engagements for fees or competed in any way with professional musicians. Some members of the police band have played at concerts in their spare time when a professional musician has not been available, but no professional has been deprived of employment thereby. The Chief Constable has made a rule that no police officer should play if a professional musician is available. The men have not acted illegally, and this has been explained by the Chief Constable to the local branch of the Amalgamated Musicians' Union.
Motor Cars (Police Controls)
asked the Home Secretary how many police controls of all kinds, respectively, were in operation in the Metropolitan Police Area between a.m. 18th December, 1920, and p.m. 20th December, 1920, and with what results; how many police officers were employed; and were any cases reported by police on other duty?
During the week-end a.m. 18th December to p.m. 20th December one control was operated in the Metropolitan Police District to detect infringements of the speed limit, three officers being employed, and three cases reported for prosecution. Seven controls were operated to detect other infringements of the Motor Car Act, six officers being employed and four cases detected. Seven cases were reported for prosecution by police on ordinary duties.
Aliens
asked the Home Secretary whether he can state the number of aliens admitted into this country between the 1st January and 30th November of this year; how many of this number were given permission to reside here; how many were journeying to other countries; how many were journeying to other countries; and how many were on temporary visits and have since left this country?
398,626 aliens were admitted into the United Kingdom between the 1st January and 30th November this year. During the same period 386,061 aliens left the country. No "permissions to reside" are given; but as the Home Secretary stated in reply to a question by the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth on the 29th November, it may later be possible by analysis of these figures to estimate the number of individuals who have come here to reside. At present it is not possible to do so. Nor is it possible to give the other figures asked for in this question.
How many of those were commercial travellers?
An answer to that question would involve a great deal of research which might or might not be justifiable.
Will the hon. Gentleman see that no persons are admitted unless they give satisfactory evidence that they will not become a burden on the ratepayers and taxpayers, and that they will not increase unemployment?
Does that apply to Members' wives?
Their admission is governed by the Aliens Act and the Regulations made under it.
Housing
Government Subsidies
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, having regard to the lamentable want of progress in housing in Scotland and to the uncertainty as to the future imposed on the local authorities by the three-years limit provided in the 1919 Act, he will initiate legislation to extend the definite period of subsidy by the State to a five-year limit with the same provision as to further extension beyond that time if difficulties with the supply of labour and material render it necessary and justifiable in the opinion of the Board of Health to grant such extension?
As my hon. and gallant Friend is aware, that is a matter which affects the Treasury and the Ministry of Health. My right hon. Friend is in course of conferring with them on the subject.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that eighteen months ago Glasgow alone required 50,000 new dwellings, and up to the present only 40 under this Act have been occupied, and does he think that the three-year limit will be sufficient to meet even one-tenth of the need?
I am already aware of the figures, and, as I have stated, the whole matter is at present in the hands of my right hon. Friend, and he hopes to confer both with the Ministry of Health and the Treasury on the matter.
Supervisors
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that under the existing Regulations there are supervisors at salaries of over £5 per week superintending the work of some times not more than two or three workmen engaged upon house construction under the Housing Act in various areas in Scotland; and whether, in view of the close proximity of some of these areas to each other, he will cause inquiry to be made in order that one supervising official may be able to overlook the work of more than one area, and thus save considerable expense?
1 am advised that appointments of clerks of works to housing schemes lie with the local authorities concerned, but the Sctotish Board of Health, before approving the salaries attached to these posts, have regard to the practicability of employing clerks of works already engaged on neighbouring sites. This practice already prevails at a number of sites. I am not aware of the particular cases referred to, but if my hon. and gallant Friend will furnish me with particulars, I shall cause inquiry to be made.
Will the Board of Health in Scotland inform the local authorities that it is not their wish that they should employ one supervisor to look after two bricklayers?
You may take it that it is not their wish.
Will the Board of Health contradict the Order they have issued on the subject?
Scotland
Net Fishing (Carnoustie and St. Andrew's Bays)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, following the public inquiry held in Arbroath recently, a Report has yet been made to the Scottish Fishery Board on the question of opening Carnoustie and St. Andrew's Bays to revive net fishing; and whether, having regard to the continued welfare of important sections of the fishing community on the east coast of Scotland, which rendered valuable service to the. Navy during the War, he will favourably consider the granting of this concession?
The Report on the inquiry is at present under consideration by the Fishery Board for Scotland, who hope to be in a position to submit their recommendation to me at an early date.
In the event of the Report being favourable to the concession will the right hon. Gentleman see that no time is lost in carrying out the recommendation?
Certainly.
Does this refer to the whole of Scotland or only a particular bay?
It refers to the two bays mentioned in the question and not to the whole of Scotland.
Land Settlement
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the Cabinet have yet considered the Report of the Committee appointed to review the question of land settlement in Scotland; and, if so, what action is to be taken upon it?
I hope that this Report will be considered by the Cabinet this week.
Post Office
Christmas Cards (Postage)
asked the Post master-General what postage the ordinary Christmas card in an envelope requires, a halfpenny or a penny; whether any writing is allowed on printed cards of greeting; whether the recent International Postal Convention made any effective alterations, upwards or downwards, for seasonable correspondence; if so, what; and will he state the general position?
A Christmas card may be sent by post in an unsealed envelope for a halfpenny provided that it bears nothing in writing except dates and names and addresses of sender and addressee and formulas of courtesy or of a conventional character not exceeding five words or initials. I am not yet in a position to make any general statement as to alterations in rates which may be made as a result of the recent International Postal Convention.
Will any printing on the card be a breach of the Regulations?
No, it will go at printed rate.
Parcels Post, Ireland
asked the Postmaster-General the numbers of parcels consigned from Ireland during the last seven months; and whether it has entailed the employment of extra labour?
No records are kept of the number of parcels passing between Great Britain and Ireland, but I have no reason to think that any extra labour is entailed in dealing with them.
Hebrides (Supplies)
asked the Postmaster-General whether he can now state when the river tugboat now carrying mails to Harris and Uist will be replaced by a boat capable of carrying passengers and livestock with a reasonable degree of comfort and safety in winter weather, and suitable for conveying necessary supplies to those islands?
I am informed that the steamship "Clydesdale" was placed on this service on the 15th of this month, but that there is still difficulty arising from adverse weather conditions.
Unstamped Letters (France)
asked the Postmaster-General whether, in consequence of the present condition of the exchange between this country and France it is less expensive to send letters unstamped to the latter country and to pay the surcharge than to affix the Regulation postage; and, if so, whether he proposes to take any steps to remedy this anomaly?
The facts are as stated. The advantage would, however, be slight, and I have no reason to think that letters for France are being systematically posted unstamped. Under the decisions of the recent Postal Union Congress, it will be possible to refuse to send on correspondence for a foreign country in circumstances such as those alluded to by the hon. Member unless the postage is fully prepaid. I shall be prepared to avail myself of this power whenever the circumstances render it desirable.
Palestine
asked the Prime Minister whether he will give an undertaking that the establishment of the Holy Land as a national home for the Jews will not involve the taxpayers of this country in any permanent expenditure; whether the cost of the British Army in Palestine is now being borne by the Jewish population in that country; and, if not, whether the cost will be refunded in the coming financial year?
The acceptance of a Mandate for Palestine is not intended to involve any permanent expenditure on the taxpayers of this country. The answer to the second and third parts of the question is in the negative.
May I ask if the present expenditure in Palestine is definitely to be paid back to this country?
I think the answer to that is in the negative. I have no hope of it.
Will the House know when such expenditure in the form of a gift to Palestine is going to cease?
Of course, in accepting the Mandate we did undertake a certain responsibility, but the Government have no intention whatever of this country being involved in heavy expenditure in connection with it.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make an appeal to the Jewish population to raise a fund for this purpose and so relieve the British taxpayer. They are very wealthy?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Jews have raised large sums for the development of Palestine and are we not under obligations to the Jewish people for fighting for us?
Is it not the fact that ever since the occupation of Palestine the Jewish population of the world spent many thousands on education, public health, and other sources in Palestine which otherwise would have fallen on this country?
Yes, very large sums have been raised and hopes are entertained of still larger sums being raised by Jews throughout the world. I think my hon. Friend is right in saying it has saved expenditure by this country.
Is it not a fact that many Jews fought and were killed on our side on the distinct pledge that we would help them to regain their national home?
I never understood that there was any suggestion that they fought merely on that ground.
asked the Prime Minister at what date the British troops will be completely withdrawn from Palestine?
The forces in Palestine, as the House has already been informed, are being reduced, but some force must be maintained until the civil administration is in a position to maintain internal order and to resist aggression from without. It is impossible to say when this will be the case.
May I ask if it is not possible to set up a time limit of six months or a year, so that we do not become involved in the same way as we have in Mesopotamia?
The only way we could set a time limit would be to say now, "We will not spend another penny six months hence," and I do not think that would be wise.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that Palestine is the bridgehead of the Suez Canal and a most important link in our Imperial communications, and in the event of the Milner proposals for Egypt going through, will it not be essential to keep a considerable garrison for the protection of the Suez Canal in Palestine?
That is rather a technical question. I am not sure that my hon. Friend is right. Some people think that we can maintain the Suez Canal from Egypt.
National Expenditure
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of interesting all Government officials in administrative economy by intimating that promotion, salaries, and bonuses will, as far as possible, be dependent upon efforts in the direction of reducing expenditure.
Promotion will depend upon efficiency, and without economy there cannot be efficiency.
Public Accounts Committee (Fourth Report)
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to paragraphs 3 to 6 of the Fourth Report of the Com- mittee on Public Accounts; and whether any further correspondence between the Treasury and the Air Ministry in connection with the alleged waste of public money other than that furnished in the Appendix to the Report may be laid upon the Table of the House?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. All the correspondence between the Treasury and the Air Ministry, together with other relevant documents, has been laid before the House, either in the Appropriation Account for Air Force Services for 1918–19, or in the Fourth Report of the Committee of Public Accounts.
May I ask my right hon. Friend if he will say whether the responsibility for this waste of public money does not definitely lie upon the ex-Air Minister himself?
The Report of the Public Accounts Committee is now the subject of investigation. The Treasury, following the usual practice, have to investigate this matter, in conjunction with the Air Ministry, and will present their Report through the Public Accounts Committee. An opportunity will be given for raising a discussion in this House if and when the Report of the Public Accounts Committee is before it, and I think that to say anything more at this moment would be premature.
May I ask whether the Public Accounts Committee have not issued their final Report, and does it not now rest with the Treasury?
I do not think my right hon. Friend is quite correct in that, because whenever these doubtful points are raised in the Public Accounts Committee it is the duty of the Treasury to ask the Department concerned for any explanations which they may have to give, and these explanations, with the Treasury comments, are in due course forwarded to the Public Accounts Committee.
Has not the Public Accounts Committee given its final judgment upon the whole matter?
Am I to understand that the Treasury are going to take no immediate action on the letter, pub- lished widely throughout the country, of Lord Rothermere, last Saturday, in which he says he was not responsible, and he throws the responsibility on an unfortunate subordinate, who is let down for this gross waste of public money?
I do not think that any action of the Treasury is called for with regard to that letter.
Oh, yes; you must protect civil servants.
What the hon. Member says is perfectly true, that the doctrine of ministerial responsibility is one which has always been recognised in this House, for the reason that unless Members of the Civil Service feel that they are not likely to be thrown over by the Minister it makes their position impossible.
Near East (British Intervention)
asked the Prime Minister to what extent, if at all, expressed in terms of taxpayers' money, the Government is prepared to intervene in the affairs or in the interests of the Greeks, Armenians, Montenegrins, or other little Eastern peoples?
The Government's policy in these matters has been repeatedly stated in the House, and I do not think that I can add anything in answer to a question.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think he can add the financial effect of that policy?
Peace Treaties
Treaty of Sevres
asked the Prime Minister when the Treaty of Sevres is to be revised; and on what principles, if any, the revision will be made?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which was given in this House on the 9th instant to the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. A. Herbert).
Date of Peace
asked the Attorney-General whether his attention has been called to the decision of Mr. Justice Darling, in the case of Rattray v. Holden, to the effect that where contracts are in any way dependent upon the expiration of a period after the signing of peace with Germany such words must be construed as meaning not the signing but the actual conclusion of peace; and whether, in view of the inconvenience which this decision has caused in commercial circles, the Government will take steps, by Order in Council or otherwise, to have the point definitely settled?
I am aware of the decision referred to. It was a decision on the construction of a particular contract, and the unsuccessful party, if dissatisfied with it, had the right of appeal. The Government do not propose to deal with the matter by further Legislation and they have no power to deal with it by Order in Council.
League of Nations
Admission to Membership
asked the Prime Minister whether the Assembly of the League of Nations has recommended the admission of Austria and Bulgaria to membership of the League of Nations but has recommended the non-admission of Esthonia, Latvia, and Lithuania; whether he can state the attitude of the British delegates in the matter; and the reasons for their attitude?
The Assembly decided, with the support of the British delegates, to admit Austria and Bulgaria, these countries having given proof of their sincere intention to observe their international obligations. The admission of Esthonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, was deferred on the ground that their position was not as yet sufficiently stabilised to warrant the League's assuming responsibility for their defence under Article 10 of the Covenant.
May I ask whether either or both of our representatives on the Assembly of the League of Nations will make a statement in this House before we adjourn, and, if so, when it will be made?
I replied to that yesterday. If there is time, it will be made by my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council. I hope that time may be found to-morrow.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think time for a matter of this importance should be given by the Government in preference to time for several rather trifling little Bills?
It is not a question of little Bills, but of the Consolidated Fund Bill, which is a big Bill.
May I ask if the non-inclusion of these Balkan States has anything to do with the representations made by the Czarist representatives in Paris, who are still working for a Great Russia, and why were Finland and Poland admitted; do we defend them under Article 10?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative; as to the second part, it would require a speech to answer that.
Will the right hon. Gentleman ask these Gentlemen to make a statement on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House?
The hon. Member forgets. There will be no Motion for the Adjournment; there will be a Prorogation.
Could the right hon. Gentleman not say what was the character of the proofs of their sincerity that these countries gave?
They were sufficient to convince the League of Nations that they were sincere.
Is that an answer?
Yes.
Unemployment
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the spread of unemployment, the Government will do its best to see that all voluntary assistance is, so far as possible, regulated and co-ordinated in order to avoid waste and overlapping?
His Majesty's Government are fully alive to the import- ance of the suggestion contained in my hon. Friend's question, and will do what they can in that direction.
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government policy in all cases where assistance may be provided for the unemployed will be to ensure that some return in the form of actual work is required, since the system of doles is neither beneficial nor popular?
The whole aim of the policy of the Government in this matter is, so far as possible, to carry out the suggestions in my hon. Friend's question.
In the event of not being able to find employment for these people, will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to give these people something to live upon?
May I ask whether the Cabinet have considered the advisability of giving more power to the boards of guardians in consequence of the tremendous amount of distress there is in the industrial centres of the country?
I think that question will be more suitably raised in the Debate which takes place to-day.
Excess Profits Duty
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that many firms are finding difficulty in getting the banks to advance the necessary amounts required for payment of Excess Profits Duty; and what steps he proposes to take to collect this duty, seeing that it is impossible for many businesses to finance their commitments?
I quite appreciate that many firms find it difficult at their present time to obtain fresh advances from their bankers. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Forrest) on the 8th ultimo. I am sending a copy of that reply to my hon. and gallant Friend.
Would it not help people who are in difficulty over the finance if the Government would at once make a statement of their policy in regard to the future of this tax?
No, Sir; I do not quite see that it would help firms who are in arrears with their payments to know what the future of the tax is to be. What we are dealing with here are past liabilities.
If a firm knew that there would be no liability in the future, would it not help them to obtain the money to meet their liabilities, and, from that point of view, could the right hon. Gentleman make a declaration of policy?
No, Sir; that question I answered the other day. I think the hon. Member was present when I answered it, and if he has not it in mind, perhaps he will turn up my answer.
Blind Persons Act, 1920
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that appeals are being made against pensions granted by old age pensions committees and sub-committees under the Blind Persons Act, 1920, unless the claimant produces a certificate from some approved agency or institution for the blind that he or she is known to such agency or institution as a blind person; whether there is any statutory authority or justification for such an instruction; and, if not, whether he will order its withdrawal forthwith on the ground that it inflicts unnecessary pain and anxiety upon the blind persons whose lot it was the intention of the Act to alleviate?
I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to the hon. and gallant Member for St. Pancras, South West (Major Barnett) on the 16th instant, and to the reply given to the hon. Member for West Ham (Mr. W. Thorne) on the 20th instant.
Is it the intention of the Minister to revoke these irritating restrictions?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will remember that we have had some conversation on this matter, and if he will be good enough to send me any instances that have come to his notice of the practices of which he complains, I shall be only too pleased to investigate them.
Railway Expenditure
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in the case of the £275,000,000 annual expenditure by the railway companies of taxpayers' money, he has the same full powers of enforcing economy as he has in the expenditure of Government Departments; how Estimates for this expenditure come before him and how he presents them to the House; and whether he is satisfied that none of the taxpayers' money is spent except with the ruthless and rigid economy which the Government say they are exercising in all national expenditure?
The Treasury exercises such control as is possible over the expenditure of the railways through the. Ministry of Transport, in which Department there is a Treasury official of high standing. The scope of the agreements and the extent of the check exercised and possible are, as the hon. Member knows, the subject of investigation by the Colwyn Committee. Under these agreements, however, there is only limited power to control the expenditure of the railways, and the possibilities of enforcing economy are not great. Moreover, there is the great difference between this expenditure and the expenditure of public Departments that the money spent on upkeep of all kinds is not spent by Government servants on Government property, but by companies' servants on companies' property. Estimates of expenditure and revenue are not presented to the House, but the Treasury is satisfied that the Ministry of Transport is doing all that is possible to cope with an extremely difficult situation, and to safeguard the national interests.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if the Committee on National Expenditure, presided over by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), also investigated the expenditure of railway companies, and did it report on that investigation?
Speaking from memory, so far as I know, they did not investigate the expenditure of railway companies or report upon it.
Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the recent appointment of the general manager of the London and Northwestern Railway?
The hon. and gallant Member must give notice of that.
Will an opportunity be given to the representatives of railway companies in this House of meeting the charges which are so freely made against them?
Will the right hon. Gentleman say how many railway directors there are in the House?
Is it not a fact that the money expended by the railway companies is not the taxpayers' money, but money paid by the users of the railways; and is it not outside the terms of reference to the Committee on National Expenditure to investigate the expenditure of money of private people in private companies?
I will not answer specifically the first part of my right hon. Friend's question. It would be difficult to do so, perhaps, without some argument, but I do not think the Committee on National Expenditure could usefully undertake to investigate the expenditure of railway companies.
Having regard to all these various references to national expenditure, should not hon. Members have the right to attend and listen to the evidence that is given, so that they can make useful contributions to debate at a future date? Why should we be kept in ignorance? Surely we are the guardians of the public purse, not you?
I do not know what the custom is, but if it is going to enable the hon. Member to add to his information in debate, I am not in favour of it.
Ex-Service Men
Sorting Clerks
asked the Postmaster-General if disabled ex-service men now acting as sorting clerks have been given notice that their engagements may be terminated at the end of January next; and why these notices have been given?
Ex-service men are not eligible for. direct appointment as sorting clerks and telegraphists, posts of this nature being filled from the lower grades of the Post Office. It is, there-fore, necessary to terminate the temporary appointments of disabled ex-service men as sorting clerks and telegraphists in order to make way for persons entitled to appointments to these posts under the Standing Rules. Such disabled men are, however, eligible for appointment as postmen; and if their disability renders them incapable of performing the ordinary duties of the postmen's class, efforts are made to find for them work proper to postmen within the limits of their capacity. After appointment as postmen, they can take part in the limited competitions for sorting clerks and telegraphists.
Am I to understand that the right hon. Gentleman gives the assurance that an exception will definitely be made in favour of disabled ex-service men, on account of their disability, who cannot act as postmen and so become eligible for these desirable posts?
As I said in my reply, efforts are made to find for them work proper to postmen within the limits of their capacity, and, so far as it is possible to do so, I will see that that is carried out.
Land Settlement
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture what pressure is being brought by the Ministry on borough, county, or urban district councils to hire land compulsorily for the benefit of ex-service men and others; and whether he confines official action to a general notification of existing powers?
The acquisition of land by county councils and councils of county boroughs for the provision of small holdings for ex-service men is a matter which is continually under consideration by the Ministry. Whenever it is found that land required to satisfy the approved applicants cannot be secured by voluntary means, the Ministry, through its District Commissioners, who are in close touch with the councils, brings pressure to bear upon the authority concerned with a view to their exercising their compulsory powers. As regards the acquisition of land for allotments, the Ministry has recently addressed a circular letter to borough and urban district councils urging them to meet any unsatisfied demand in their areas by the exercise, if necessary, of compulsory hiring powers.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture the amount of the extra grant placed at his disposal by the Treasury for the purpose of the settlement of ex-service men on the land?
A further sum of £4,000,000 for the purposes of land settlement has been placed at the disposal of the Ministry for allocation of councils in England and Wales on the conditions set out in the Ministry's circular letter of the 6th November, of which I am sending a copy to my hon. and gallant Friend.
Food Supplies
Bacon, Decontrol
asked the Minister of Food whether he will take an early opportunity of announcing definitely the date upon which bacon will be decontrolled, in order that packers may take the necessary steps, free from avoidable risks, to provide for adequate supplies following decontrol?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for the Ardwick Division on the 14th instant.
Meat
asked the Minister of Food whether any Member of the Meat (Sales) Committee has any practical knowledge of the meat trade as carried on in this country with the exception of Sir Philip Proctor, Director of Meat Supplies, who is connected with a company in which Messrs. Vestey Brothers, Limited, hold a controlling interest?
Of the members of the Meat (Sales) Committee, whose names were furnished in my reply to the hon. Member on the 29th November, Sir Thomas Robinson has been connected with the imported meat trade since its very earliest days, and for more than five years supervised the imported meat purchased by the Board of Trade. Mr. P. S. Hall was also connected with a meat-importing firm, and assisted Sir Thomas Robinson throughout the whole period of the Board of Trade contracts. In May, when the Committee was appointed, there was an accumulation of stocks representing several years' normal consumption, cold stores here and in Australasia were packed, ships were incurring heavy demurrage, and Australasian producers were in much anxiety as to the disposal and financing of the new season's kill. All these difficulties have now been resolved, and the consequent saving to the British taxpayer will be many millions. This seems the best testimony to the efficiency of the Committee.
asked the Minister of Food whether, since the recent sales of Australasian meat to Messrs. Vestey Brothers, Limited, steps have been taken by the Ministry of Food to raise the export prices of this commodity; whether other exporting firms are unable, by order of the Ministry, to purchase meat for export-except at such prices as make it impossible to carry on this class of business in competition with the firm that has purchased the bulk of the supplies at a low price; whether he will explain the reason for this action of the Ministry, in view of the Meat (Maximum Prices) Order; and whether he is aware that this firm, which is enabled to make increased profits by the action of the Food Ministry, has removed its head office to America in order to escape the taxation to which British firms are subjected?
The sales of Government meat to Messrs. Vestey Brothers consisted, with one small exception, entirely of beef, the export trade in which is entirely free. Owing to the maintenance of the home demand for imported mutton, it has been considered advisable to regulate the export of this meat, and it has been announced to agents that sales for export of Government mutton may not be made without reference to the Ministry as to the price which should be quoted for such sales. With regard to the third part of the question, the object of the Meat (Maximum Prices) Order is to protect the interest of the consumer in this country, and not that of the consumer abroad. I have no information regarding the truth of the allegation made in the last part of the question.
Flour Stores (Rent)
The following question stood on the Paper in the name of Major WATTS MORGAN:
80. To ask the Food Controller the total charges for rent of premises used as flour stores up to 30th November, 1920; what loss has been incurred up to this date in consequence of the deterioration of the flour by damp, vermin, 'or other causes; will he state the cost of retransporting back to the mills flour stored in unsuitable buildings so that it may be reconditioned; and what steps will he take to cease this wasteful policy?
I have been asked to postpone this question, and I do so; but I protest against the delay in giving the information to the House.
Government Departments (Stocks)
by Private Notice asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that there is in the possession of various Government Departments enormous stocks of bacon, flour, sugar, frozen meat, biscuits, jam, canned vegetables, canned meat, and a variety of other foodstuffs, and whether he will take immediate steps to cause adequate supplies from these stores and dumps to be delivered to all Labour Exchanges throughout the country for distribution through the medium of local trade union organisations, friendly societies, and ex-service men's associations to necessitous cases, and thus help to alleviate the acute privation which now exists and is likely to develop throughout the country through unemployment?
I have not received notice of this question which has probably been sent to the Prime Minister, but I think I can answer it. There are, I believe, no such stocks as the hon. Member speaks of, but if there were I think to give food and that kind of thing would be a very bad proceeding.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have a letter from the Prime Minister saying that this is such an important matter that he wants to give it serious consideration and that I might ask a question; and under these circumstances, may I ask him to make representations to the Prime Minister not to do this sort of thing again; and, further, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Minister of Munitions this afternoon at question time admitted that these dumps do still exist—[An HON. MEMBER: "No."]—but that there was no demand for them as they were unsaleable; and does the right hon. Gentleman propose to allow all this food to not in this country while people starve?
No, Sir; my right hon. Friend says he made no such admission. I am sure it is not a fact. I have seen one allegation of the kind which I investigated, and there was no foundation for it whatever.
Is it not a fact that the military authorities have vast supplies of surplus food-stuffs from the War, Maconachie's rations, and other things which are rotting in this country?
Kenya Colony
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will inform the House as to the present position in respect of the claims of Indians to representation on the Legislative Council of, and unrestricted immigration into, the Colony of Kenya?
It has been decided that the representation of Indians on the Legislative Council of Kenya shall be by election, but the nature of the franchise is not yet settled. It has also been decided that there is to be no question of introducing any restrictions on the immigration of Indians, other than those imposed by the Immigration Ordinances which are of general application.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Medical Appeal Tribunal, Wales
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that the Medical Appeal Tribunal for Wales has been removed from Wales to hear appeal cases in England, and that consequently the hearing of appeal cases in Wales has been suspended; and what is the reason for such action?
I have been asked to reply. I assume that this question refers to the Pensions Appeal Tribunals set up under the War Pensions (Administrative Provisions) Act, 1919. The sittings of the tribunals in various large centres in England and Wales are arranged in accordance with the number of cases received in each district. The tribunal which sits almost continuously in Wales was temporarily removed to London for the fortnight commencing 6th December. It returned to Wales yesterday. This arrangement was the result of ( a ) a diminution in the number of cases received from Wales and ( b ) an increase in the number of London cases received.
Questions
REX v. GREENWOOD
asked the Attorney-General whether he is aware that in the recent prosecution of Rex v. Greenwood the defendant incurred expenses amounting to at least £2,000 in vindicating his innocence; whether he has any claim against the Crown in respect of his costs; if not, whether the Treasury will be asked to make him a grant in respect of such expenses; and whether he will favourably consider an amendment of the present law entitling innocent persons accused and acquitted of criminal offences to reimbursement of reasonable expenses incurred by them in their defence?
The answer to each part of the question is in the negative. It is obviously necessary to be reticent with reference to criminal trials, even in reply to questions, and therefore I will only add that in the case referred to ( a ) no charge was made until after the coroner's jury had returned a verdict of wilful murder, the accused having been subpoened and having failed to give evidence before that jury; ( b ) the trial at Assizes continued for six days and no submission was at any time made that there was no case to go to the jury; ( c ) no observation was made by the learned judge as to any lack of a primâ facie case for the jury to consider, and, in fact, the jury considered their verdict for a long time; and ( d ) it was not until the trial at Assizes that the accused gave evidence or called witnesses.
Business of the House
Motion made, and Question
" That the Proceedings on the Motion relating to Unemployment Insurance (Temporary Provisions Amendment) and any Proceedings consequent thereon and on Consideration of Lords Amendments to the Housing (Scotland) Bill be exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House) "— [ Mr. Bonar Law ]— put, and agreed to.
Pilotage,
Order [ 26th July, 1915 ] that the Paper relative thereto be printed, read and discharged.
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to, Gold and Silver (Export Control, etc.) Bill, without Amendment.
Amendments to, Official Secrets Bill [ Lords ], without Amendment.
Agriculture Bill.
Roads Bill, with Amendments.
Agriculture Bill
Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 279.]
Roads Bill
Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 280.]
National Expenditure
Seventh Report from the Select Committee, with Appendices, brought up, and read;
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 248.]
Orders of the Day
Government of Ireland Bill
4.0 P.M.
Order read for consideration of Lords Amendment to Commons Amendment to Lords Amendment and Lords Amendments in lieu of Commons Amendment to Lords Amendment disagreed to by the Lords.
Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the Lords Amendments be now considered."
( Minister without Portfolio ): There were two points upon which the House did not agree with the Lords Amendments when this Bill was last before it. One was the time limit of two years, which had been inserted in the House of Lords, and this House, in disagreeing, inserted a time limit of three years from June last in lieu of the two years. The House of Lords have now agreed to the time limit which has been inserted in this House. There was a second point, and a more important point, to which I ought to draw the attention of the House. The House of Lords, before a second offer of representative government could be made to that part of Ireland in which an elected Parliament had not been set up on the first attempt, required that the two Houses should by Resolution agree that a second offer should be made. If either House refused to pass the Resolution it could prevent the second offer being made. This House, on the other hand, insisted that the Government of the day should be able to proceed, unless both Houses agreed to a Resolution that it was inexpedient so to do. I am glad to say that the other House have accepted the principle of the Amendment moved in this House, but they have added a proviso which I am going to ask the House to accept. It is the perfectly reasonable proviso that before any such Order is made notice of one month shall be given to both Houses, and, if thereafter no Resolution be passed by both Houses that it is inexpedient that the second offer should be made, then the Government of the day will have power to make the offer. If this House agrees with this very minor Amendment and the Royal Assent be given, Ireland will have received self-government after many years, not perhaps in the form demanded by the extremists, but in a form consistent with the liberties both of the South and of the North and of the integrity of the United Kingdom. An instrument will have been put into the hands of the Irish people, which, by an agreement between the two Parliaments and with the free consent of both peoples, may be used for the building up of a single Parliament representative of a united nation. All this can be accomplished without any further legislation from this Parliament, and it remains now for the moderate and loyal elements in Ireland to give proof of their good will towards each other and of their desire to act as good citizens within the Empire.
The right hon. Gentlemen has made a speech quite appropriate to a Third Reading Debate, but not to the question of leaving out the words " by order unless " and substituting the words " subject as hereinafter provided by Order."
I was trying to deal with all three formal questions which will have to be put to the House. I am very sorry if I have exceeded the limits permitted on this occasion.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
CLAUSE 70.—(Provisions applicable in case of either House of Commons not being properly constituted.)
Lords new Sub-section (3):
"(3) At any time within two years after the date of the Order in Council providing for the exercise of the powers of the Government and Parliament of Southern Ireland or Northern Ireland, as the case may be, in manner provided by Sub-section (1) of this Section His Majesty may, upon a Resolution declaring that it is expedient so to do passed by both Houses of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, issue a Proclamation for summoning a Parliament as constituted by this Act to meet for the part of Ireland affected by such Order in Council.
Provided that if the Lord Lieutenant certifies that the number of Members of the House of Commons of such Parliament validly returned at such election is less than half the total number of Members of that House or that the number of Members of the House of Commons of such Parliament who have taken the oath as such Members within fourteen days from the date on which such Parliament is summoned to meet is less than one half of the total number of Members of that House, His Majesty in Council may by Order provide for the dissolution of such Parliament.
The provisions of Sub-section (2) of this Section shall apply as in the case of the first Parliament summoned to meet for such part of Ireland, and the provisions of Sub-section (1) of this Section in regard to the exercise of the powers of the Government and Parliament of the part of Ireland affected shall continue to have effect until the Lord Lieutenant certifies in manner provided by this Sub-section, and thereafter if the Lord Lieutenant so certifies.
Commons Amendment:
Leave out the words
"two years after the date of the Order in Council providing for the exercise of the powers of the Government and Parliament of Southern Ireland or Northern Ireland, as the case may be, in manner provided by Sub-section (1) of this Section, His Majesty may upon"
and insert instead thereof the words
"three years from the first day of June, nineteen hundred and twenty-one, His Majesty may by Order unless."
Lords Message:
The Lords agree to the Amendment made by the Commons in the new Subsection (3) to Clause 70 proposed by the Lords with the following Amendment :
Leave out the words " by order unless " and insert instead thereof the words "subject as hereinafter provided by order."
Lords Amendment agreed to.
Commons Amendments:
Leave out the words
"expedient so to do," and insert instead thereof the words " inexpedient so to do is."
Leave out the words
"issue a Proclamation for," and insert instead thereof the words " provide for the revocation of any Order in Council made under Sub-section (1) of this Section and for the issue of a Proclamation."
Lords Message:
The Lords disagree with the Amendments made by the Commons in the new Sub-section (3) to Clause 70 proposed by the Lords, but propose the following Amendments in lieu thereof:
In the first paragraph leave out the words "upon a Resolution declaring that it is expedient so to do passed by both Houses of Parliament of the United Kingdom."
At the end of the new Sub-section (3) insert.
" Provided that, before any Order in Council is made under this Sub-section, a draft thereof shall be laid before each House of Parliament for a period of not less than thirty days during the Session of Parliament, and if before the expiration of that period both Houses present an Address to His Majesty against the draft or any part thereof, no further proceedings shall be taken thereon, but without prejudice to the making of a new draft Order."
Question " That this House doth not insist upon its Amendment to the Lords Amendment, to which the Lords disagree," put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments proposed in lieu of Commons Amendment to Lords Amendment, disagreed to by the Lords, agreed to.
Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) (No. 2) Bill
Unemployment
Government Proposals
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the Bill be now read a Second time."
We do well to take counsel together again concerning the distressing problem of unemployment, and I fully appreciate the feeling of Members that they really cannot close their labours and go to their homes until they are fully assured that all that is possible is being done and will be done. For between three and four months now the cloud of industrial depression has cast its shadow over us, a shadow which, I regret to say, has grown deeper as the weeks have gone on. Manifestly, we have two duties to perform. We must be unceasing in our general endeavour to tackle the very difficult and complex problem of how to set the wheels of trade going round again, and thus bring employment and comfort once more to our people. That is the prime necessity—to set the wheels of trade going round again. I need not assure the House that we appreciate the urgency of this side of our task. Side by side with that is the urgent, immediate, and continuing necessity to do all that is humanly possible to mitigate hardship and to relieve distress, and that I can certainly assure the House we shall continue to do. I need not weary the House with many figures respecting the present state of unemployment. At the end of August there were about 142,600 ex-service men registered as unemployed. On 10th December there were about 265,000 ex-service men registered as unemployed. At the end of August there were about 87,000 civilian men registered as unemployed. On 10th December there were about 148,000. At the end of August there were 54,000 women registered as unemployed. On 10th December there were about 131,000. There is beyond those figures a margin, perhaps a wide margin, of persons unemployed, but not registered.
It is quite true that the percentage of unemployment to-day, as shown by the trade union figure, is below several experiences pre-War, but there are two vital facts to be remembered which obviously wholly differentiate the unemployment to-day with unemployment pre-War. Unemployment to-day, with the cost of living 169 per cent, above the pre-War level, is a much more grim and acute problem than it was in the days behind us. There is also this equally vital fact to be remembered. At least one-half of the unemployed, and in some localities a larger proportion, are young active men to whom the country is under a profound obligation. They are thrown upon a market already over-full, the unskilled market, and they are thrown upon that market, in many cases, solely because of the tragic breach which the War made in their lives. They are men, many of them, who have never known unemployment, and they have run up against it for the first time on the morrow of their return home from the tremendous task of driving off an enemy which threatened their country with destruction. Since the Armistice it is quite true that we have dispensed £35,000,000 to these men and their comrades in out-of-work donation in order to help them to keep their heads above water till they could get a job, and by the 31st March next we shall have dispensed in all to ex-service men in this way £40,000,000. But how far does the individual allow- ance go with prices what they are to-day? I can honestly say that the vast majority of these men are quite sincere when they say that they want work, and not doles.
In August last, while yet the employment returns generally were good, the Cabinet appointed a Committee to devise such plans as might be possible, with a view to meeting the depression which might arise this winter, and which has arisen, and, in any case, to see what could be further done to absorb in civil life the very large proportion of ex-service men still in the ranks of the unemployed. As the result of the labours of that Committee, the Prime Minister announced on the day that Parliament reassembled, 19th October, the measures which were to be taken. Let me restate them. Negotiations were to be continued with the building trades to secure that large bodies of ex-service men should be taken into those trades, in order especially that housing arrears might be made up as rapidly as possible. Again, both in London and in the Provinces, schemes of new road-making and existing roads improvement were to be put in hand. Moreover, the Cabinet Committee was charged to continue to explore other possible fields of employment. That it has done; it is doing it, and will continue to do it. As regards the building trades question, it will be remembered that on Wednesday last we asked representatives of the operatives to meet us yesterday. They replied last Friday, stating that the communication had been laid before a full conference of the joint executive councils of the societies, and in view of the fact that a deputation, not having executive power, could only act in a consultative capacity, the conference requested the Government to communicate its proposals for dealing with this problem, upon receipt of which they would undertake to summon a special conference of the joint executive councils to consider the proposals. Very well We replied as follows, and I think it is due to the House that I should read the letter in full:
MINISTRY OF LABOUR,
MONTAGTU HOUSE, WHITEHALL,
LONDON, S.W.1,
18 th December, 1920.
DEAR MB. HICKS,
I have received your request of 17th December that the proposals of the Government should be communicated in writing rather than at a Conference as I proposed to you on 15th December. I therefore send you the proposals of the Government.
(1) The arrears in suitable housing accommodation—due in part to the reduction in building before the "War, and gravely aggravated by the total cessation of building during the War—constitute a serious hardship, particularly upon the working classes themselves. The situation is accentuated by the fact that the number of skilled men in the Building Trades is very considerably less than before the War, so that, not only is the number less than would be needed to meet the normal building requirements of the country, but it is wholly inadequate to overtake the very large volume of arrears with which the country is confronted. Side by side with these undoubted facts, there are tens of thousands of young ex-service men, to whom the country rests under the most profound obligation, ready and willing to engage upon productive work, asking work and not charity, and finding themselves without the opportunity of earning that decent subsistence to which their services to the country in the hour of its necessity so abundantly entitle them.
(2) The Government is of opinion, therefore, that the absorption into the industry of a large body of ex-service men as adult apprentices or trainees with a view to becoming skilled craftsmen should be commenced forthwith. The numbers to be absorbed should be on the basis of one in five, calculated on the number of skilled men in the whole industry, but the proportion must vary in different trades. The highest percentages should be applied to the three branches of the industry where the need is greatest, namely, bricklayers, slaters and tilers, and plasterers, and the minimum number of men thus admitted to the skilled crafts for housing purposes shall be not less than 50,000. The proportions to be admitted in the various crafts above specified will be arranged with the Minister of Labour.
(3) In return for an undertaking to admit and train these ex-service men, the Government is prepared to make a Training Grant of £5 per head to the Unions for each man admitted to the Trade Unions concerned and trained in any of the trades in the Building Industry. This grant will be paid as follows: —
£2 on admission to training.
£3 at the completion of the training.
Men appointed as Instructors of the new entrants will be rated and paid as Leading Hands.
(4) The Government accept the principle of a guaranteed rate of pay on housing operations for time lost owing to wet and inclement weather, subject to the Trade Unions accepting the augmentation set out in paragraph 2, and are prepared to provide for the application on housing schemes of this principle on the following basis, viz.: —
"In the case of a man employed, or standing by to work on a job when called upon, for a full week, the payment for time lost through stress of weather shall be 50 per cent, in respect of time lost up to 22 hours per week.
"In the case of time lost in excess of 22 hours, the hours lost over and above 22 hours shall be paid for at the rate of 75 per cent, of the time rate."
(5) The Government appreciate the anxiety with which Building Trade Operatives view the prospect of considerable additions to the membership of their craft. In the years immediately before the War, and mainly in consequence of the reduction in the number of houses built as described in the first paragraph, the Building Trades were subject to frequent and grave periods of unemployment, with all the hardships entailed to the families of the workers. Having regard, how ever, to the great arrears of building work throughout the country—arrears which must be made good at the earliest possible opportunity—and to the admitted shortage in the number of skilled men in the building trades as compared with pre-War days, the Government are of opinion that no risk of unemployment is involved in their proposals. If, however, their confidence is not shared by the Unions, it is within the power of the industry as a whole to provide against this contingency. An amended Unemployment Insurance Act has been placed upon the Statute Book this year. That Act provides a benefit of 15s. a week which, if the Trade Union cares to become the Agency for administration, becomes at least 20s. a week by an additional contribution of at least 5s. a week from Trade Union Funds.
The Training Grants mentioned in paragraph 3 above would provide a substantial foundation for any addition which the Unions may desire to make to the provision under the Insurance Act.
(6) I shall be glad if you will place this communication before your Executive, and, in view of the pressing urgency of the matter, the Government desires me to ask for a reply by the end of the year.
Very faithfully yours,
(Signed) T. J. MACNAMARA.
G. Hicks, Esq.,
President, National Federation of Building Trade Operatives, 20A, Cedars Road, Clapham.
How much is the guarantee going to cost?
My right hon. Friend can make the calculations himself. If 50,000 men are absorbed in the course of three years the grant for each will be £5.
What about the guarantee in the case of wet weather?
I am afraid there are factors there which I cannot determine—the weather itself.
Has any estimate been made?
Yes, a careful estimate.
Then perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will give it to us.
To whom is the £5 to be paid?
The correspondence will be laid, and will be available to hon. Members—
What is the cost?
I feel confident that the Minister of Health, who is responsible for that part of the question, will be able to answer. I cannot do so. The correspondence will be laid, and will be available to Members at the Vote Office to-day. We have done our best. I received the following communication this morning:—
"I have your communication of even date relative to the employment of ex-service men in the building industry. I am taking steps to summon my Committee together, when your communication will be laid before them and their decision will be communicated.
Faithfully yours,
(Signed) GEORGE HICKS,
Secretary, pro tern,."
The next word is with the building trade operatives—
rose—
I shall be much obliged if hon. Members will allow me to go on with my speech.
The assurance given was that it would be completed on Monday.
We have mid in the last sentence of our original letter,
"The Government desires me to ask for a reply by the end of the year."
Why not shoot them straight off?
Let me try to put all into a sentence or two.
Will Parliament be consulted?
We say, "Take these men. Train them to be skilled craftsmen—"
Is not Parliament to be consulted?
"Train these men to be skilled craftsmen so that they can permanently earn hereafter the decent subsistence they so richly deserve." We also say, " Here is £5 for their training. £2 when they enter training, £3 at the end of the three years' course." The building trades say in a sentence, " Well, but pre-War we suffered very grave periods of unemployment." That is true. They say, in effect, " When the housing arrears are made up, are we to go back to all that?" We say, " Your fears, we think, are really unfounded, even when housing arrears are made up. What is here proposed will do no more than recruit your ranks to their normal strength. But if you have any genuine anxieties on that point we suggest to you that you should use the training grant as the nucleus of a fund upon which you can build a really effective insurance scheme for your members, old and new." That, I think, is a perfectly fair offer, and involves a perfectly square deal. The next word, as I say, is with the building trades.
Now as to road work. In the London area work is proceeding on one section of the new arterial road scheme and has just commenced on another two. I do most sincerely hope it will expand and expand rapidly. The Unemployment (Relief Works) Act passed into law on 3rd December, and with the additional facilities which it gives it should now be possible to press forward rapidly with other sections of the London scheme especially. I most earnestly hope that this will be done. Fifty-one provincial authorities have now in operation, or under consideration, schemes of new arterial road work, and work has actually started in 28 provincial centres. The total number of men now employed on new arterial roads is 4,500. With regard to the repair and reconditioning of main roads, a list of roads which the Minister of Transport has agreed to treat as main roads is before the boroughs. In the London area, proposals have been put forward in the cases of 16 borough councils, respecting, so far, some 40 main roads; and schemes are also before 50 provincial authorities respecting the repair and improvement of some 60 provincial main roads or parts of main roads. In the meantime, the Ministry of Health has taken measures to expedite and expand work on roads and sewers in connection with housing schemes. Therefore, over and above the new arterial road work, the main road repairs and re-conditioning, and the lay-out of sites and sewers for housing schemes, there are many men now at work. I regret that I cannot give the precise number; I wish I could, but we worry the local authorities for a great many figures, and my right hon. Friends the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Health rightly hesitate to press them for periodical progress returns on these and many other schemes. I should like to say, if I may, that progress in these matters has only been possible by the very valuable co-operation and assistance which has been rendered by the local authorities generally throughout the country. Their local obligations are heavy —in many cases very heavy; but generally they have come forward in a spirit of most earnest co-operation, and have had a large part in getting these schemes under weigh, and I desire to thank them.
Over and above the new arterial roads, the main re-conditioning schemes and the lay-out of sites and sewers for new housing schemes, local authorities are themselves putting in hand relief work. Over and above these other matters, in connection with which they are assisted from the centre, they are putting in hand themselves other relief work, which is a charge wholly borne by the local authorities. It has been pressed upon us that local authorities should have assistance in respect of other useful work than that which has been here indicated. With regard to that, I have to state that the Government have decided to appoint a Committee, under the chairmanship of Lord St. Davids, at whose disposition they will ask Parliament to place a sum of £3,000,000 for the purpose of assisting local authorities in carrying out approved schemes of useful work, other than work ox roads and housing schemes, for which special arrangements have been or may be made. The selection of the schemes to be assisted, and the amount of assistance to be given in any particular case, will be decided by the Committee, who will be instructed, in coming to a decision, to observe the following general principles:
The expenditure is not to exceed a total of £3,000,000.
Works will be approved only in areas where the existence of serious unemployment which is not otherwise provided for is certified by the Ministry of Labour.
Preference in employment must be given to unemployed ex-service men.
The grant must not in any case exceed 30 per cent. of the wages bill of additional unemployed men taken on for work.
The works must be such as are approved by the appropriate Department of the Government as suitable works of public utility.
Any applications by local authorities for assistance should be addressed in the first instance to the secretary of the committee. The names of the committee will be published at a later date, together with particulars of the detailed arrangements to be made by local authorities.
I have said—and the Noble Lord (Lord Hugh Cecil) will, perhaps, note this— that we will ask Parliament to place at the disposal of the Committee a sum of £3,000,000; but we propose in the present emergency in the absence of any dissent —and I do not anticipate that there will be any—to make that money immediately available, taking care to regularise our procedure hereafter by Resolution or Supplementary Estimate. That can be properly done before the close of the financial year, when Parliament meets for the new Session.
Is £3,000,000 the sum total of the expenditure?
That is the first condition that I read—that the expenditure is not to exceed a total of £3,000,000. That is on the part of the State; the local authorities will incur expenditure.
That is in addition to what the right hon. Gentleman said just now?
Yes. I will give the Noble Lord such estimate as is possible of the cost of providing for adverse weather conditions, which, of course, I cannot control.
Does this supersede the Unemployed Workmen Act?
No, certainly not. That Act is still on the Statute Book. A comment which I shall make later will indicate our views upon that. I saw, on Thursday, representatives of the Labour party and of the Trades Union Congress Parliamentary Committee. Indeed, with my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry, for whose help I am very grateful, I am seeing representatives of municipalities and others daily. Thursday's deputation, introduced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Miles Platting (Mr. Clynes), advocated a variety of courses, amongst which I may particularly mention the setting aside of the four weeks' qualifying period for benefit under the extended Unemployment Insurance Act; the provision of useful work in the various Government establishments; the making of grants to the Distress Committees under the Unemployed Workmen Act— and when I come to comment on that it will be a complete answer to my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge); and the revival of the out-of-work donation for civilians. I said that these and other proposals which were then made should at once be sent for consideration to the Cabinet Unemployment Committee, and that has been done. A careful summary of the proposals put forward was at once made and put into the hands of the Committee, but on the four very important proposals which I have rehearsed I may perhaps be allowed to say a word.
First, with regard to the question of waiving the four weeks' qualifying period for benefit under the Unemployment Insurance Act for new entrants, that proposal had been brought before me previously by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) and by my hon. Friends the Members for Falls (Mr. Devlin), Shankhill (Mr. McGuffin), North Armagh (Lieut.-Colonel Allen), and St. Anne's (Mr. Burn). They called my attention to the grave urgency of the matter from the point of view of the Belfast linen workers, who were newly insured for the first time, and at a time when the conditions made it very difficult for many of them to qualify, by four weeks' employment and payment of contributions, for benefit under the Act. With no less urgency, the matter has been brought before me by my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Irving) and my hon. Friends the Members for Preston (Lieut.-Colonel Stanley and Mr. T. Shaw) from the point of view of the cotton industry, which also is newly insured. We have gone into that with the greatest care, and with due regard to the very urgent and exceptional state of affairs which confronts us. Of course, amending legislation will be necessary. As the Notice Paper shows, we are proposing a one-Clause Bill amending Section 44 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, and I want to get all stages of that Bill, if I can, to-night. Section 44 is the Section which sets up the four weeks' employment and contributions as a condition precedent to the receipt of benefit. That we propose, for the time being, to suspend, and we propose, in its place, to say that any person insurable under the Act who was unable to insure through not having been, as was the case with the linen workers, in an insured trade at all before the 5th July—we propose to say that any person who has been in any employment now insured for not less than ten weeks since the 31st December, 1919, or for any four weeks since the 4th July, 1920, shall be eligible for the benefit provided by the Act. We propose that this Amendment of Section 44 of the original Act shall run till the 31st March next. If the House agrees to that proposal, those who desire to enter into benefit, and are ordinarily employed in a trade now coming under the Act, will attend at the nearest employment exchange and make a claim, presenting their current health cards, which cover the last half of this year. If such a card has four weeks' stamps upon it, the claim will be admitted, subject to the usual rules which otherwise apply under the Act. If the current health card does not contain four stamps, they must show that they have been employed during any ten weeks of the whole of this year, either by presenting their health insurance record cards or by evidence from their employer.
Does that mean ten continuous weeks?
No, it means any ten weeks during the year, or any four since the 5th July. Those are by no means onerous conditions. I am advised that we can do all this without in any way jeopardising the finance of the Act. The final finance of the Act was arranged in the early summer, and had the Act come into operation before the recent depression these people about whom we are now talking would have been in benefit. In point of fact, the finance of the Act contemplates and makes provisions for ups and downs in employment. It contemplates and makes provision for cycles of bad trade and good trade, and the concomitant bad employment and good employment. The accruing contributions and the existing Unemployment Insurance Fund will, I am advised by the Government actuary, enable the Fund to bear what I may call the hastened liability, without disturbing the soundness of the scheme of the Act. There need be no anxiety about that. The four weeks' provision which it is now proposed to modify was not an essential financial condition of the scheme, but a practical test of insurability tinder the Act. In the circumstances in which we now find ourselves, that test, as has been pointed out to me, operates with a severity which was not contemplated when the Act was framed. This is due to the fact that the Act came into operation at a time when unemployment was severe, and the actuarial conditions will be satisfied if some other practical test of insurability is applied. The object of the scheme which I now put to the House, and which I sincerely hope it will adopt, because the matter is urgent, is to supply that test, and to supply it in a way that takes full note of the present conditions as regards unemployment.
So much for insurance. As regards the provision of alternative work in Government establishments, I stated on Thursday how far we had gone so far, but I think it is due to the House to re-state the facts in a sentence or two for its consideration. At Woolwich, the repair of locomotives, the repair of wagons and the construction of new wagons, the repair of lorries, the production of War medals in conjunction with the Mint, and the execution of miscellaneous orders for private firms, have been taken in hand. At Lancaster the repair of wagons and the reconditioning of machine tools are being carried out. At Enfield some wagon repairs are being executed, and an endeavour is being made to get miscellaneous orders from private firms. At Gretna repair works of a general nature have been instituted.
Is there any truth in the rumour that the men at Woolwich have got hold of that short time is likely to be adopted in the Arsenal?
Yes, certainly. We are sorry, but we think these Government establishments, to follow the very general practice in many other industries, should adopt the system that has been adopted after discussion with employers and employed—a system of short time. After all, that is better than having one section of men on full time and another section in the streets.
In view of the low minimum at present being paid, is there any suggestion that the men shall receive less pay?
The rate is the rate current for competent workmen applicable in every case. There is no specially low rate at Woolwich. It is in the terms of the Fair Wage Resolution, the rate current for competent workmen. We have very carefully explored the suggestion that grants should be made through the Distress Committees under the Unemployed Workmen Act, as indeed we are exploring all suggestions. Much of the employment provided under the Unemployed Workmen Act, 1905, under which these distress committees were set up, was of a quite non-productive and useless character. So far we have preferred the work with and through the representative local authorities and with them co-operate in devising schemes of useful productive work. That seems to us to be the sounder plan.
Has this work with regard to wagon repairs been taken from one section of employés, and given to another?
I should think there is a considerable shortage of wagons. There is a surplus requirement to-day in regard to wagons. I do not think this means taking work from one man, and giving it to another.
That was the principle of the Unemployed Workmen Act.
I am not adopting that principle. The Distress Committees did not quite work in the way we think most expedient and productive. In regard to the whole matter, here, as else where, we shall listen with care to any representative views to the contrary. Government grants out of all relation to any made in previous years to the Distress Committees are now being made direct to local authorities in aid of the provision of productive work for the unemployed, and, meantime, the announcement I have just made in regard to the £3,000,000 as assistance to local authorities for useful work other than roads and houses will go, at any rate, along the lines which the right hon. Gentleman suggested last Thursday. The fourth proposal, to revive the civilian out-of-work donation, is, in the view of the Government, neither feasible nor desirable. We fully appreciate the extreme gravity of the present industrial crisis. We shall watch it day by day, taking every step open to us to relieve sorrow and distress. We have given and we are giving, both in full Cabinet and in Committee, unremitting consideration to the matter, and we shall continue to give it during the time Parliament is in Recess and until such time as an improvement in trade conditions, for which we shall continue to strive, shall relieve the grave hardships which are pressing so heavily upon so many of the people. There is one thing further I want to say to the House. Please do not let anyone suggest that in saying it I am desiring or seeking in the remotest degree to transfer to other shoulders the responsibilities which properly belong to public representative authorities, central and local, up to the full limit of their capacity. I am not. Nothing is further from my thoughts. But always in the past in time of distress good people have come forward seeking to do what they could to bring a gleam of comfort and warmth into lives which are in the shadow of want and misery. And so it is to-day. The hard times of to-day are acutely differentiated from the hard times pre-War. This is the first time we have had a serious winter of unemployment for 12 years. A half-crown to-day will not buy what a shilling bought then. And all that has happened since, must touch men's hearts to a Duty not leviable by any Chancellor of the Exchequer. The common sorrows, the common anxieties, the common sufferings of the War bound us together when the enemy was at the gate to common effort, common determination, common purpose. The enemy at the gate is no longer the enemy of 1914–18. The enemy at the gate is want, misery and distress. Many individuals, many institutions of men and women, social and religious, are to-day graciously supplementing the efforts of the central authority and the local authorities. I simply wanted to say to them from this Bench before I sat down, " Thank you," and to commend their noble efforts to all those who for the time being have it in their power to give a hand to those who for the time being may be down and out.
Is there a scheme devised for the clerical and professional classes, amongst whom there is much distress?
In the £3,000,000, yes. They must be ex-service men, and it must not be on the work of houses and roads, which are already provided for. For the rest, it is in the hands of the local authorities.
Is the £250,000 paid to the building unions to come out of the £3,000,000?
No.
If not, how will the House have an opportunity of expressing its opinion as to whether or not that should be paid?
The £250,000 will be taken out of the Industrial Training Grant, which I administer. An opportunity will be given of discussing it when I ask the House for a Supplementary Estimate.
Will these schemes also apply to Ireland?
The £3,000,000?
Yes, and the £250,000?
Certainly. Lord St. David's Committee will consider applications, and will make such administration in accordance with this proposal, from whatever part of the United Kingdom they come, and it will then be a matter for the local authorities.
5.0 P.M.
The right hon. Gentleman has addressed the House under pressure of two kinds, the pressure which this House can give to the great settlement which he has explored, if it is to rise in the usual way before Christmas, and the pressure, which I am sure he feels all the more keenly, at the outside conditions, which are the fundamental cause of the statement to which we have listened. I think we can bespeak for the right hon. Gentleman not merely the assistance of the House in all quarters in regard to the work he has taken in hand, but practical assistance, so far as we can give it, in criticism and in any other form to give the earliest effect to the proposals which he has explained. Not that I regard those proposals, nor, indeed, can the right hon. Gentleman regard them, as being anything like a complete solution of the problem which confronts us. He is a very optimistic man if he believes that the four lines of action which he has outlined will, within the next four months, absorb any considerable number of the million or so people who are out of work to-day. I shall touch on that again, and it will be seen that there is a good deal of truth in my estimate. There is no Department of State at this moment of more importance to us than the Ministry of Labour, at any rate, in relation to the work it must do in preserving the national interest and the peace of the State in handling this problem of unemployment. I do not accept, I do not think any official of the Government would expect us to accept, the figures which have been given as expressing the limit of the number of persons unemployed under the three heads the right hon. Gentleman has named. Hon. Members, therefore, must not leave out, in estimating the figures, that considerable margin which has been referred to as measuring the total number of people now clamouring for work. Roughly, the figures are these, as given by the right hon. Gentleman— 265,000 men who are ex-soldiers, 140,000 men who are civilians, and 131,000 women. There you have really a figure approaching some 600,000. There are, I am certain, hundreds of thousands of people now suffering the privation of unemployment who have never been near a Labour Exchange, and particularly that considerable number of people who have not been accustomed to mingle with the manual labouring class who habitually have used the Labour" Exchange, and certain it is that a large number of the women not named in this list have never been near a Labour Exchange, but are in sore need either of employment or of some form of monetary assistance. I suggest to the House, without any desire to exaggerate or overstate this point of numbers, that there must be towards a million men and women in the state of unemployment, and they constitute a problem of real gravity which the Government must face as its first domestic responsibility. As the right hon. Gentleman has said or hinted, the personnel of the unemployed is very different now from a few years ago, mainly for the reason that there has been a war, and that there has been some development in what we call the consciousness of citizenship and the appreciation of the rights of the individual in regard to his claims upon the State. The War has completely altered the mentality of masses. of out-of-works, for the reason that hundreds of thousands of men who were called upon to save their country when its life was in the balance, and who have, happily, come back after the victory has been won, turn round to the country and ask it to do something for them in the sense that their claim is right in a different degree altogether from what the sense was on the same question in previous years. We cannot say to men who have saved their country and offered their lives to that end that they have not now a claim far above any claim which they ever had upon the Government and the country in relation to the unemployment problem of previous years. This change in mentality manifests itself in the use of pressure which intensifies the problem. That pressure up to now has only gone the length of commandeering public halls, baths, and such property, for the purpose of physical shelter or comfort. We hope it will go no further, and it is the business of the Government to 'see that it does not go further. These proposed measures, however much they may be taken under pressure, and, however tardily they may be taken, because they cannot be avoided, go in some way towards meeting the serious situation that has arisen.
There are degrees and stages of conditions in the progress of the out-of-work, and a very large number of the mass of unemployed have reached the limit of endurance. For the first few weeks they arranged, somehow, to borrow or to live within the limits of the small allowance they got from their trade unions or under the Unemployment Insurance Act; but, as the right hon. Gentleman so fairly reminded the House, the whole difference is explained by the enormous reduction in the value of money in the hands of those who have so little of it. Before the War men and women with 15s. or £1 a week could make it go to some length in the provision of bread and the immediate needs, but many pounds are now needed, and these many pounds cannot be got. Everything having gone up so seriously, the problem has been complicated and intensified, and because of the altered value of money the degree of distress suffered by the unemployed varies accordingly. They go from stage to stage and from degree to degree until they find that they are at the end of their resources, and then, naturally, they become desperate men and desperate women. A large number of the persons in the unemployed processions are women. The main causes of the difference is in what I term the mentality of the personnel of the unemployed, and the altered value in the purchasing power of money. Although the schemes which the right hon. Gentleman has outlined will go some distance to meet the needs of the unemployed, they will collectively fall short of covering the needs of this large mass of people.
I suggest that the problem must be faced by the Government either from the standpoint of doing nothing at all or of undertaking to make a complete job in providing a full solution. The test of a Government in relation to unemployment in the future will be in regard to how far the State can secure the masses of the people in employment and in a state of contentment also. Contentment and employment are the two minimum requirements and the two minimum rights of the masses of the people, and a Government which had a legal right to call upon the lives of these people to save the life of the State only a few years ago will have to accept the responsibility for providing the minimum of the necessities of life. Hon. Members will place their own interpretation upon what I mean by contentment; but, really, to measure it from the working-class standpoint is simple, for in the main they are content with little. It is true that they have been content with too little. A very modest subsistence level was commonly regarded by the State as being theirs through life, generation after generation, and they were kept at that subsistence level; but a large number of these people are properly looking upon themselves as entitled to something better than their class ever-had in former generations. This naturally increases the difficulty of any Government which handles the problem.
I cannot leave the question without saying that I am sure there are many Members, not on this side of the House, who will agree with me that on this general question of our industrial problems, the question of wages, and the standard of living and unemployment, it is clear that many of our difficulties are made because of the callousness of a large number of employers of labour and because of the inhuman standards which regulated the relations between employers and employed in years gone by. I see with very great plesure that there has been an immense alteration in the outlook of employers in general in this country in relation to the condition of the workers, and it is only fair to say that we do not often meet the individual employer who is so unenlightened as to leave out of consideration the great human factor in regard to the relations which must exist between the employer and the workman. The employer is very often a helpless creature within a system, and a victim of conditions which at the moment he is not able always to-control, and very often the State must so organise and arrange as to come to the rescue of the individual employer as well as to the rescue of the individual workman. On that account we think that the permanent policy of the Government must be not to wait to yield to pressure, but itself to initiate and to look ahead, and so arrange the affairs of the State in regard to industry as to be able always to absorb into useful service that margin of workers who are certain always to be thrown out of employment when serious periods of depression are reached. To work on voluntary lines and to have a policy that will make such provision will tend to win public trust and confidence for Parliament and Governments, instead of incurring the loss of confidence which is the case to-day in regard to very large masses of those who constitute our unemployed population.
The right hon. Gentleman has spoken of a Cabinet Committee which has been considering this question since August last. I am not sure that the House knows the number or personnel of that Cabinet Committee. The House has been given little or no opportunity to be in touch with that Cabinet Committee. Has that Cabinet Committee in any way, directly or indirectly, reached the employers or the employed in this country for the purpose of consultation on the problem of unemployment? I suggest that there has been no direct or constant contact between that Cabinet Committee which has this problem in hand and the representatives of the employed and employing classes. I doubt whether the Minister of Labour himself is an effective member of that Cabinet Committee on unemployment. Is he an effective part of it?
He is very effective.
Twice recently, and, of course, there have been public reports of the matter, therefore, it is not a secret subject, certain suggestions or remedies were put forward by representative bodies coming from Labour and from the employers. There have been two deputations, and the right hon. Gentleman has given all the personal attention that he could and a great deal of time; but it is not exaggerating when I say that all that he was able to tell us was that he would place these matters before his colleagues and that it was for them to decide. How far can it be said that the Minister of Labour is an effective member of this Cabinet Committee, or is he merely a messenger as between deputations and those who have to decide? On one recent occasion, on Thursday last, Members of this House, together with representatives of the Parliamentary Committee of the Trade Union Congress, and two weeks previously a joint deputation of employers and workmen's representatives saw the right hon. Gentleman.
On the four weeks' question.
Yes, and on many other points besides the four weeks' question. I want the right hon. Gentleman to have a greater influence in these matters, because he carries greater responsibilities on his shoulders for dealing with these subjects than any other Member of the Cabinet. I think it is because he has not had enough power that frequently there has been delay in doing things, and delay must tend to chill and dishearten men and cause a great deal of irritation in the case of those who take part with him in seeking a solution. With regard to the proposals which he has submitted to-day, we have been familiar almost since the beginning of this part of the Session with the Government's scheme for road construction and repair. That is a problem upon which there ought to have been the highest output of energy on the part of the Government and those who are acting for them in seeing that men were absorbed in useful employment and put to work without waiting for a nice, complete, and perfect scheme to start with. We have been, I understand, faced with schemes for doing this work since the beginning of October. Here we are towards the end of December, and 4,000 persons have been found work. There has been too much delay. There has been very slow pace on the part of the Government in giving effect to their own scheme. Only 4,000 men in some 16 instances have so far been absorbed. I do not know how many men ultimately it is expected that this particular part of the solution is likely to absorb. Suppose that the number is increased ten, or even twenty-fold. You have only then got roughly some 100,000 altogether, or one-tenth of the total which it is said is clamouring for work. What I want the Government to see is the inadequacy of the scheme that this House is asked to sanction, and I want to avoid the House rising before Christmas under the mistaken impression that it has completed its job and that in a very few weeks all these people will be at work. The second part of the plan which has been adopted relates to the building trades. I am sure that, not merely the Labour side, but every part of the House received with a great deal of bewilderment the Regulations on points of finance with regard to the subsidy or bribe of £5 per man to a particular set of people for the purpose of taking him into their fold—
And training.
Yes, and training certain men who are now ex-soldiers. The right hon. Gentleman did not tell us what ground he has for believing that any such number as 50,000 of these ex-soldiers want to be trained in these occupations, want to be bricklayers, plumbers, painters, or carpenters.
They want work.
Certainly, they want work, but this plan is only an instance of the incomplete examination of the nature of the problem. In what way can it be said that any statistics or line of experience which the Government possess gives them the assurance that 50,000 men out of the quarter million ex-soldiers unemployed will be absorbed in the building trade? I have no definite knowledge as to what the attitude of the building trades may be on this proposal as to the £5 subsidy. I would ask whether the right hon. Gentleman or his colleagues before this proposal was expressly made either in letter or any other documentary way took the direct precaution of privately finding out whether any proposal of this sort was likely to meet with a welcome or to turn out to be a success? Indeed, is it not likely now that this proposal will be rejected? I suggest that those of us who are old enough in these diplomatic arts to know better should be careful of making proposals which probably will be rejected.
Why?
It is not for me to argue why. This is a proposal made to building trade unions. It is made I suppose after many proposals have been made, and I suggest that it is a proposal which ought not to have been made unless there was previously some understanding or chance that it could be* turned to good account in the interests of ex-soldiers on whose behalf presumably it is made. There are many men in this House who complain strongly of the conduct of the building trades unions in regard to this problem of absorbing men and finding work as far as possible. That is not the view at any rate of a Member of the Government. The right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works speaking in this House on 1st December said: authority to act in these negotiations with the various trade unions.
The third of the remedies announced today is one which, I think, on this side of the House, we can readily welcome. Indeed, it is one for which we have appealed. It has been announced in the form of a short Bill, and I repeat the hope which the right hon. Gentleman expressed that the House will assent without any resistance of any kind to the passage of this Bill in order that it may immediately become law. It is in response to appeals made not merely from this side of the House but from other sides. Belfast linen workers and other workers are as much interested in this matter as men in Manchester, Birmingham London, and elsewhere. It was a real misfortune that when the qualifying period in connection with the new Insurance Act began certain persons were out of work and could not begin to qualify for the benefit which the Act provides. The fault was not theirs. They were the victims of circumstances which only now the right hon. Gentleman is proposing to overcome, so that they may get this year all the assistance that is possible through that amended Bill.
Fourth of the lines of solution is the proposal for a central committee, and powers, both monetary and other, which that committee is to exercise. While the right hon. Gentleman may not be able to announce members of the committee during the course of the Debate, I would like to have his assurance that more than one representative of labour is going to be on the committee. The personnel of the committee is of such importance, and if it is to consist of, say, eight or ten members—I am only guessing at the number, but I cannot imagine a central committee of that kind being formed of a smaller number—Labour ought to have a considerable share, together with employers and representatives of the State, on that committee. Because, although it would be a most unpleasant task for Labour to undertake, yet they are in close touch with both the problem itself and the individuals suffering under it, and I would like in the course of the Debate to hear some statement as to the number and the particular individuals who may be required to serve on that committee.
I notice that work is to be arranged under that committee on the basis of giving preference to ex-service men. I have not the slightest objection to that, but it is really an argument for going farther than the right hon. Gentleman has done in making such provision as will give the civilian unemployed worker a better opportunity of getting back to work than apparently he is to have under the limitations and conditions which are being laid down. After all, there are many young ex-soldiers who have not either family or household responsibilities, and the difficulties of middle-aged married men who had to remain at home working in the factory or workshop to make effective the work of the ex-soldier abroad. This, then, is the position, that repeatedly ex-soldiers become unemployed, repeatedly ex-soldiers are the first to be re-employed, repeatedly civilian workers are in search of work, and repeatedly they are rejected because there are only arrangements enough to take on employment the men who have served in the Army. That, I fear, is to be the fate of the civilian part of the unemployed mass of workpeople to-day. Therefore, there is good reason for doing more than merely absorbing a portion of the men who are ex-soldiers.
I welcome that section of the right hon. Gentleman's remedy which is to require the Central Committee effectively to co-operate with local bodies, but I suggest that the co-operation to be effective must be backed up with the best financial assistance that can be given. I do not accept the doctrine that to any great extent the work done in former years through distress committees or local authorities was wasteful work. There were instances of waste and of unproductive work. If some local amenity is improved, you have some sort of expression of wealth, which is far better than having no results at all. Take the right hon. Gentleman's own figure of the sum of money given for nothing, under what we know as doles to the ex-soldiers. I think he said the sum was £40,000,000. If by the end of this year that sum is reached, does it not mean that we have given £40,000,000 to the men without having the slightest sign of a fraction of wealth to show as the result of it? It would have been far better to have had these men engaged in some form of productive service. If we are now to subsidise trade unions by giving them £5 per head for every man they are able to attach and to transform into a building trade workman of the future, surely it would have been nothing less than common sense to have used that £40,000,000 in producing some other form of wealth.
As far as we can do so, we want to give every assistance to the right hon. Gentleman in obtaining the fullest effect for his proposals, but let him not console himself with the idea that the proposals will go far. When the House resumes in February probably he will find himself compelled to make the confession that they have effected little. Indeed, it might well be that unemployment will grow just in the degree that all these measures put together can do anything to relieve it. I hope it will not be so, but it is because I have that fear that I think something bolder should be undertaken. I hope we shall have some statement later in the day as to the peculiar way that some employers have of producing unemployment without there being the slightest need of it. I know the right hon. Gentlemen has had the case in hand. There are some men out of work to-day for no other reason than that they dared to be members of what is known as the Guild of Insurance Officials. They were not organised formerly, but recently they have gone the length of accepting membership in the Guild and are trying to give themselves the benefit of such associated effort as the Guild could provide, and they have been told by the company that they can choose between leaving their jobs and leaving the Guild. That raises the question of the right of individuals to choose their association with the object of having their interests represented through any kind of organisation which they like to join. I understand that the company has recently yielded to appeals to the extent of consenting to some consultation. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give some assurance that will relieve the minds of the men who are now out of employment.
Not a word was said to-day—perhaps the right hon. Gentleman was not the one who ought to say it—as to what is to be the main line of solution of this problem, and that is the getting back, not only in this country but in other parts of the world, to a real state of European and world peace. The first thing is to make peace as quickly as possible by assuming that attitude which alone will produce peace. One line which has been effective has been the setting up of some system of international credits as between Government and Government. If we are to go the length of providing millions within our own shores, because we no longer dare to do nothing, we ought to go the greater length of trying to make arrangements for Governments to restore that condition of credit upon which to a great extent commerce and the interchanges of trade must ultimately depend. If the Prime Minister can say anything about that, I think it will go far to relieve the situation. It is no use, in this broad section of the question, waiting for trade to restore itself by the ordinary momentum of individual employers' action. Accordingly, we are thrown back upon the fact that to get our mills and factories restored to the full level of employment, trade and commerce with all the other parts of the world must be set going again. The Government well knows that it has put before the House just a few makeshifts, just a few lines of relief that will keep the wolf from the door for a few weeks only. We appeal to the Government to go much farther, and to do all they can, not only by financial relief and work in this country, but to the length of restoring those conditions of trade abroad without which we cannot have a real solution of the problem.
I do not want to embark on any unnecessary controversy. On the face of it the Government have managed this matter in rather an unbusinesslike way. Here we are two days from the Prorogation. The Government have been considering the question of unemployment since the month of August, yet they come here with their ideas so little worked out that my right hon. Friend is not able to tell us off-hand what will be the cost of part of the policy he proposes. One would have thought that to those who had considered the question of unemployment scientifically the cost would be one of the most prominent subjects of consideration. Secondly, ye are to be asked to pass a Bill, I daresay a very proper Bill, through all its stages quickly—a process which has become common lately, but one which, until the War, I have never known done during all my Parliamentary experience, and a method which my recollection tells me was adopted only once within living memory in connection with the Explosives Bill. It is a very slipshod course. Why did not the Government bring in their proposals a week ago? There would have been no long discussion necessary. Now we are concerned principally with trying to mitigate the great evil which we have to face. My right hon. Friend said with perfect truth that the problem is in one respect a new one. He said it was new because the cost of living is so much higher, and the pressure on people's circumstances is so much greater that the distress from unemployment becomes rapidly much more acute. I think he might have gone further, and have said that the cause of the high prices and the high cost of living is also in large measure the cause of unemployment. High prices contract the market because people are not so ready to purchase. The War is at the back of all these things, because with high taxation the people have not so much money to spend, and the market is thus restricted. That is part of what has led to unemployment.
Surely it is a useful lesson for us all that the cause of unemployment, the cause which makes it so distressing now, is fundamentally unproductive expenditure, the expenditure on the War, not only in this country, but all over the world. I do not at all complain of the Government applying palliatives to an emergency, but we must recognise that palliatives tend to aggravate the main evil; they aggravate the cause out of which the evil springs. I would remind my right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Clynes) that there is a certain distinction between useful work and productive work. It is essentially the same distinction as that between what is called value in use and value in exchange. You may have a great many things you value very highly, like my right hon. Friend's speech, but nevertheless it will not sell for a penny. It will not relieve the economic situation. Similarly, there may be works that are very useful, but in the economic sense are not productive and do not mitigate the economic evil. I think I cought the phrase "making medals," as one of the works that would be useful. But it is no productive work that will do anything to mitigate the economic evils from which we are suffering. It may be said that the making of arterial roads is in the same degree unproductive. Some years hence they may turn out to be very productive, although immediately they are not productive forms of expenditure.
They will increase the value of the landlords' land.
If they do that, it will be a sign of their producing wealth. The things I have mentioned are not in the full sense always productive works. That is the weakness of much of what fell from my right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Clynes). He seemed to overlook the fact that you do not gain economically, although you may gain morally and in other respects, if you employ the unemployed upon work which is useful but is not economically productive. It is extremely difficult for the State to produce work which is economically productive, because, if it were so, private enterprise would undertake it. When you ask the Government to provide a larger scheme of State employment you ask them to practically provide more employment which might be useful but would not be productive, and which would tend in its ultimate effect to aggravate the causes which lead to unemployment, though it might mitigate the immediate effects. With respect to the building trade, I confess that the proposal seems to me to be open to very serious criticism. You are offering a particular trade union a special sum of money which they may make available for future unemployment insurance. Why should you not be asked to do the same for all other trade unions, and why should there be any limit? It seems, like all direct expenditure of money, liable to become exceedingly demoralising. Would it not be better, if the object is merely to educate people to a particular art, to spend the money straightforwardly in doing so, in order that a man might learn to be a bricklayer or whatever other trade might be selected?
Personally, I look outside the State for the ultimate solutions of unemployment. I do not believe any action the State can undertake will ever be a true, far-reaching solution of the unemployment problem. The most the State can do is to apply palliatives which may easily become aggravations of the cause. I do not at all share the indignation that is displayed that an honest man should receive what is called a dole from the nation. There is nothing degrading in accepting money which the general course of his life abundantly entitles him to. This sentiment, originated by philosophers, has been adopted by the great body of the working classes, who regard Poor Law relief as something degrading. I think there is nothing to be ashamed of in it, though experience shows that much of the expenditure in Poor Law relief is economically mischievous. There is the difficulty of distinguishing between case and case, and there are subtle encouragements to indolence, and by it you destroy valuable capital of the ratepayers which might be used in enterprise. Let us be sure whatever applies to poor relief appies to others, because they are all on the same footing economically. There is no real difference between the unemployment dole and Poor Law relief.
One falls on the local authorities and the other on the taxes.
That does not make any economic difference. The same is true in degree of all unproductive expenditure. They all have a fundamental economic fault. I entreat the House to try and direct its mind to some reconstruction of industry, or improvement of the particular methods of industry, which would make unemployment less common. I believe that the only way which is within the region of what is called practical politics, that is, practical enterprise, is some improvement in the direction of co-partnership. Take the present crisis. One of the causes is high wages driven up in time of great demand. That makes the cost of production higher. The prices are high and the market is contracted. When the special causes for the demand disappear, the market shrinks and unemployment follows. The only way of dealing with that is to make wages elastic so that they would go up easily in times of prosperity and come down easily in times of adversity. When people secure higher wages by agitations, strikes, and so on, they have a natural reluctance to consent under pressure to let them come down again. What you want is elasticity without any risks. When the wages fall you have reduced prices, and there is increasing abundance.
Would the Noble Lord apply the elasticity to rents as well?
Rents do not enter directly into the cost of production.
Before the War a working man paid one-third of his wages in rent. If the wages are going to fluctuate, surely the rent ought to do so.
No one suggests that wages should fluctuate below subsistence level. If a man has not enough to live on, he dies. It is perfectly clear that there can be no question of wages, even in bad times, falling below the subsistence level, but they ought to fluctuate easily up and down above the subsistence level. Do not let it be supposed that by doing so you would make the working classes worse off. I think they would be better off in their aggregate earnings. Under this system they could earn much more, taking the good and bad times, because there would be much more abundance of work and a much more continuous demand for labour generally, which would tend to keep wages up. There would be a mean level much higher than the present. You cannot have that elasticity except on the basis of co-partnership. Unless the employers are willing to admit the working men or their representatives into a share of the management you will never get the working classes to acquiesce in the principle of elastic wages, and unless you have that system you will never get rid of unemployment. If wages were really elastic, and the cost of production was also elastic, you would immensely mitigate the pressure and maintain a much more constant demand for goods, and have a much lower level of unemployment, so low that it would be easily dealt with by some system of insurance.
All that falls into a still larger point. What I do earnestly hope that both the working classes and the employers will lay to heart is that all people ought to have a conscience in favour of abundance. What we really need to make industry prosperous is to have the sense that it is an anti-civic thing to restrict production, whether by labourer or employer. We hear the cry against profiteering, but I do not observe that people draw a distinction about profiteers which ought to be drawn. I do not much mind economically if people should obtain very high profits by liberally supplying the community with what they want. Those people are performing a useful service to the community, and at the worst you are only over-paying for a useful service, but there is another class of man who makes a corner or some other form of restriction which is very mischievous. He is making a gain, not out of service to the community, but out of an injury to the community. There is a very similar distinction between the working man who wants to have wages as high as possible and the working man who wants to reduce output. If he reduces output he is injuring the community and making a corner of his labour in order to artificially raise the price. That is a very vicious thing to do. What I want to see is a patriots' league of abundance of which employers and employed should all be members and in which the rule should be that no member of the league should ever take part in any industrial action which tended to restrict production. The right hon. Gentleman who spoke last referred to the necessity of peace. What you want is peace all over Europe in order to get as much abundance as possible. Whatever may be said as to the policy with regard to exports and imports, there is nothing to be said for anything that is likely to restrict wealth. What we want to have is the largest possible quantity of wealth in the world, and let us be sure that the poor people not less than the rich people will benefit by the total aggregate being increased. The wealth of the world is something which could be indefinitely extended if only you could get the enterprise, industry, and talent of the human race to co-operate in the interests of abundance.
6.0 P.M.
I shall not oppose the passing of the promised Bill through all its stages in the one day. The time has come when drastic remedies are necessary, and although this remedy will only apply to a small number, still it will have effect of alleviating in a very serious crisis. At the same time I do not think that the Government have much to congratulate themselves on in the manner in which they have brought forward this measure. I should have thought they had had quite sufficient experience of the vicious effects of what is known as the 12½ Per cent. We have here, however, practically an endeavour to resuscitate the 12½ per cent, in another form. Many of the trade unions have with the greatest good will undertaken to train and bring up these ex-service men so that they shall have the best chance of making a livelihood, in view of their services to the country, but in this case the trade union or the individual who makes the most trouble gets the best treatment, and provided he makes that trouble sufficiently long, he is sure to get what he wants. In the letter published by the Minister of Labour, not only have the building trades refused to accept what has been proposed to them, but they have said that they are to be guaranteed against unemployment. It is a very strange thing that in the proposal of the Government the men who are going to have the responsibility of teaching the ex-service men are to have special payment in the respect that men appointed as instructors will be rated and paid as leading hands. In addition to that, the trade union is to get a grant of £2 on admission to training and other £3 on the completion of the training, but the completion of the training is dependent on the special men who are to be paid the special fee for their trouble. How many men will be accepted and trained in other industries from the day that this agreement is made with the builders, unless the trade union gets a grant and all the men who are asked to train these ex-service men are promoted to the position of leading hands? The proposal will create far more difficulty and trouble in industries where some sympathy and generosity has been exhibited in connection with these ex-service men than it will gain in the building trades. For this reason—where they have this spontaneous response of the members of the other trade unions to teach these men, for no fees, we shall never get the same response if we purchase the good will of individuals by payment of a monetary dole.
Therefore, I should be inclined to oppose with all the force I have any such proposal as has been suggested in the letter of the Minister of Labour of the 18th December. I think it is highly unreasonable that an obligation should be incurred by any Government Department of such a character as is contained in paragraph 4 of that letter, without any information being given as to what that obligation means and for how long it is to remain in operation. It is an in-determinate sum for an indefinite time that we are called upon to guarantee, and that is entirely in the hands of whoever is going to administer it, and we do not know who that is. The Government accept the principle of a guaranteed rate of pay on housing operations for time lost, but who is to decide on the time lost, who is to decide whether the man should stand by, as is stated here, or go home? It is perhaps the most vicious principle that has ever been admitted to industry. I should have thought, further, that the experience the Government have had during the War in the relations between labour and capital would have been quite sufficient to convince the Government that the sooner they dropped all these activities the better for them and the nation at large. What we are faced with now in the matter of unemployment has a direct relation to the manner in which the Government dealt with labour during the War. Notwithstanding all that was said, all the advice that was given, not only by the employers and their associations, but also by the trade unions, the Government insisted on dealing with individual members or groups of members of the trade unions behind the backs of their executives, and so attacked the exercise of central authority in the trade unions that they have created an element which is still with us. They then created an unrest which the executives have as yet been unable to cope with, and until they are able to cope with it we shall never have any satisfaction in bringing about the allaying of that unrest.
What do we find to-day? We find that not only has the Government seemingly ignored the various elements which have contributed to this unemployment— and one of them, and a very important one, is the amount of unrest which exists in the country to-day—notwithstanding that for months the Minister of Labour has been asked by responsible bodies on both sides to take into serious consideration the crisis that was bound to come, because everyone associated with industry knew that it was bound to come, not so very long ago he stated in conversation reported in the Press, and I think also in answer to questions in this House, that unemployment was normal, that the progress of trade was satisfactory, and that there was no fear of trouble arising. Notwithstanding all the warnings he received, at the very last minute, after there are about a 1,000,000 persons unemployed and a large proportion more underemployed, and working on short time, the Government come down to the House to-day, present a Bill in panic legislation, and ask that that Bill should go through all its stages in one day, in order that before Christmastime and before the adjournment of the House, some small measure of palliation might be adopted to show that the Government after all have been a little anxious to see what could be done in the interests of the unemployed. Surely it is only reasonable to suggest that, if there is a Ministry of Labour charged with looking after the affairs of industry, that Ministry should be so au fait with what is going on and the position of industry that they can look ahead in order to find out what is likely to happen, and by consultation with those who are best able to advise them, plan and scheme in order to anticipate all these things. I am satisfied of one thing, and I am satisfied with an extraordinary amount of regret, that in this grave national crisis, such as we have never seen before, such as we never hope to see again, the Ministry of Labour has been tried and has been found woefully wanting.
The discussion to-day has ignored the cause of unemployment. It is simply this, that the cost of production of the commodities of this country exceeds the selling price of the article. The Government in their wisdom in the earlier part of the War, in respect of the introduction of schemes for dilution, thought fit to impose a certain amount of control in businesses connected with the manufacture of munitions. That control has been carried on, and a duty has been imposed on what were called profits in excess of the standard year. Industry has been throttled to such an extent that there has been no possibility of laying by that amount of capital that was required to provide for reconstruction and making arrangements for taking over peace-time industries. The capital required in business to-day is at least three times what it was before the War, and the only source from which that capital could have been gained was the product of the work during the War. The Government has exhausted industry to such an extent that to-day for that reason, and practically for that reason alone, there are some firms of good standing and reputation who have the greatest difficulty in getting together sufficient money to pay their wages. I should have thought that the Government would have been willing and even anxious to explain all these questions and to show that, notwithstanding the greatest desire to foster industry in this country, these matters which I have referred to were inevitable, and that nothing the Government has done has increased their effects; in fact, on the contrary, that everything the Government has done was in the direction of lessening those effects. But what has happened? Not a single word as to the cause of unemployment has been given us to-day. The only thing we have got to-day is that here are a million persons unemployed, that we must provide for them, that the case is an absolute necessity, and that therefore we must have this Bill at once. I do not think that that is the right way to treat the Members of this House, who in other directions have been anticipating to a much greater extent than the Government have, and who in conversations and negotiations with the trade unions have been endeavouring to build up schemes which will avoid unemployment. When all is said and done, the trade unions do not desire to have unemployment benefit; they desire to have employment.
I should like to know whether the Government have considered the effect of the restriction in output, whether they have considered the effect of foreign competition, whether they have considered the effect of the extent to which contracts have been cancelled, firstly, before they have been started on, and secondly, when they are in course of completion; and whether the Government have taken any means whatever to ensure that so far as regards the commodities which we have to use here we shall as far as possible produce them here and shall not, as we are doing just now, send the money which might be spent in this country on the cost of living in this country to other countries, where it is spent in any direction, we know not what. There is an amount of money being spent on articles which are made abroad and dumped into this country to-day which would be very much better spent if it was spent on the manufactures of this country. That, again, would have been a subject upon which the Government might have given us some information. A good deal has been said regarding the necessity for reducing wages and for having an elasticity in wages and the suggestion was made that the only solution of this problem is the introduction of a system of co-partnership. If I may say so with great respect, we do not want that extraordinary elasticity in wages that has been suggested. It is a very simple matter to increase wages, and in dealing with a small margin of saving power, as we have in a number of the wages in this country, to become accustomed to an increased spending power is easy, but it is a very serious thing to become accustomed to a decreased spending power, and rather than have that extraordinary elasticity of wages which has been indicated, I should much prefer to see a greater stabilisation of wages rates and a greater elasticity in the earnings. The earnings are in the hands of the workpeople to increase or decrease according as they like, provided they realise that the rates of pay are fixed and will not be reduced. That, I suggest, is the only possible solution, and that, coupled with the increase in the intensity of production, will give us what we want at the moment, which is not a reduction in wages, but a reduction in the cost of production, and a reduction in the cost of production is not incompatible with the maintenance of a high rate of wage.
We are, of course, quite frankly disappointed. I do not seek to accuse anyone of responsibility. But what I do say is this, that the greatest fallacy that was ever created is that, unless you restrict output, you will endanger the future employment of workpeople. I believe—and recent experience has impressed it very much upon me—that the amount of economic education which is possessed by the representatives of the unions one meets now is of a very much higher order than it has ever been, and they say very frankly, "Well, you have been endeavouring to teach the people economy, and we are going to test the value of your statements," and it is very necessary that the statements should be tested. But surely at this time we are entitled to believe it is not the case that a large proportion of the workpeople are convinced that if they restrict their output they are doing themselves good. I am perfectly satisfied that if there were a little more progress made in connection with dealing with the question of the prevention of unemployment, we should be able to get from the individual worker a rate of production which it is impossible to get otherwise. I am glad to have the concurrence of my friends of the Labour party in such a proposal, but the main difficulty that we have to face during a long period of weeks in arriving at a satisfactory solution of that complex problem is that in the discussion of these problems some grades of trade unions will not sit in the same conference with other sections, and when you find a cleavage in the ranks of the workpeople, which will not permit the trade unions to discuss these questions with you, it is time for them to put their own house in order before they seek to criticise other people.
Of course, this may not be very helpful, and I should very much regret if I finished without saying something which might be some contribution, at any rate, towards the solution of this question. There are obligations on all parties in a case like this. There are obligations on the Government; there are obligations on the trade unions; and there are obligations on employers. The first obligation of the Government, in a great measure, is to leave the employers and the trade unions alone. If they do that, they have taken a great step in advance, and I can assure you if the Government do that, then the trade unions and the employers, knowing their own mind in each industry, are far better able to look after their domestic affairs than anyone from outside. The consumer comes later on; he comes later in this way, and may I illustrate it by pointing out the close connection existing between the policy of the employer and the policy of the workman? The employer's job is to get as many contracts as he can at the biggest possible price. A successful employer in doing so is the best advocate for the workman that could exist, because if, as we hope, in the near future we shall be able to come to an arrangement whereby wages fluctuate according to the state of an industry, the employer, in getting the largest number of contracts at the greatest possible price, is doing the best he can to show that an increase of wages to the workpeople is justified. The consumer comes in in this way. He is entitled to say that a price is too high for him, as he is saying to-day, and that he is not going to buy, and immediately the price will come down, because the employer is bound to keep his works running. The usual economic laws of supply and demand are perfectly able to look after the case of the consumer, because, when all is said and done, the consumer is the person who looks after all the other people.
As I have said, the first duty of the Government is to leave the employers and trade unions alone. Secondly, the first duty of the employers and trade unions is to sit down and settle all disputes so that we shall come back to the period which we had in certain industries prior to the War where we had agreements regulating these matters. Thirdly, the employers must come together and see to what extent, at least in the larger branches of industry, each branch is capable of carrying its own load of unemployment, because that will be the first thing to settle industrial unrest. It will be the first thing to give the workman freedom to open out to the fullest extent on his job, because he knows that that will not put him in an evil position and bring about his early discharge. No matter how economical the intentions of the Government may be at the moment, I have yet to believe that Government administration can be as cheap in a matter of this description as a dual administration of employers and workers. Fourthly, we say at the moment it is alleged, and is no doubt psychologically true, that if there is not work for a man to do, the employer or his representative discharges him, knowing full well that the care of that man, after he is discharged, is a matter not for the employer but for the State, and the employer has done his part by paying his contributions under the Unemployment Act. If the employers and workers were to carry on unemployment personally, that objectionable feature of the State burden and the State exercise of a right would be removed. It would be a mutual burden to be looked after by the people who look after these men while in employment, and perform the counterpart of looking after them when out of employment. Not only so, but if such an arrangement were made, the duty of the employers in conjunction with the trade unions would be to look after employment, and unemployment might well be left to look after itself.
The other proposal which I put before the Government seriously, and which I think they ought to consider seriously, notwithstanding all that has been said against it, is that we shall never be able to bring this country back to its pre-War position as a manufacturing country until we take off the stranglehold of the Excess Profits Duty. Excess Profits Duty might be all very well during the War, or conceivably some years ahead, but to strangulate the birth of a new industry in this country, after the disastrous effects of the War, appears to me to be industrial and commercial folly. This period is a crisis which calls for an amount of statesmanship on the part of the Government which has not been called for on any occasion but at the gravest crises during the War. It is a sad day for industry when we have to face such legislation as is before us at the moment, but it will be a very sad day for industry and the nation as a whole if when it comes to a crisis, either in being or in contemplation—a crisis like we have to face to-day —the Government and this House are so negligent of their duties that they wholly and miserably fail to anticipate that which is bound to happen. They allow things to slide, with paltry ideas of making roads here and there, and say they are going to allow this thing to drift until it gets out of hand, and then, in order to avoid a national calamity, make a slight extension of the National Insurance Act, and say nothing as to what their policy is. They have to find the remedy for the cause of the trouble, not merely indulge in panic legislation. I commend that to the Prime Minister, and I am glad he has been here to listen to what I have said for, it is said, the good of the Government, although the Government may not agree. At least, I have put it forward with the sole desire of endeavouring to bring home to the Government wherein I conceive they have failed in anticipation and in realisation.
I agree with my hon. Friend who has just sat down that we are discussing a question of the gravest moment—probably the gravest since the War. For my part, I feel quite incapable of indulging in the heights to which the Noble Lord (Lord Hugh Cecil) soared in the matter of finding a solution to the problem: but I would like to say one or two words about certain aspects of the question which affect the Constituency I have the honour to represent, and many industrial areas in the country. I heard with interest the speech of the Minister of Labour this afternoon, when he outlined the organisation which it is proposed to set up to deal with the difficulties with which we are faced. In regard to the Cabinet Committee, which is said to be sitting and dealing with unemployment, I confess I thought there was some justification for the criticism of the right hon. Member for Miles Platting (Mr. Clynes) when he said that we wanted to know more about the personnel of that Cabinet Committee, and more as to what its exact functions are. I do not believe there are many members of this House, and certainly - nobody among the public outside, who have any real realisation of this Cabinet Committee sitting, or particularly in regard to what it is doing from week to week. I do hope that that Cabinet Committee takes a comprehensive view of its functions, and not only deals with remedial measures where unemployment breaks out, but that it also considers such a very important matter as the importation, for example, of raw flax into this country. I must say there is a very widespread feeling among the trade that the Department concerned has not done all it might have done in attempting to help this very important industry.
The Minister of Labour indicated that a Committee is to be set up in London to deal with unemployment throughout the country. I am sure the House, without respect to party, will wish it every success, and I would like to make a proposal to the Prime Minister and Minister of Labour, and this is really the main reason for my intervening in this Debate. I suggest that in this vitally important problem they should adopt a definite development in the matter of devolution. It is well enough having a Committee sitting here in London, but I am confident that if you had regional Advisory Commitees set up throughout the length and breadth of the land, they could do a vast deal of good, both by local discussion, forwarding suggestions to the Central Committee, and generally aiding towards the solution of the difficulties as they present themselves at different periods.
It is often forgotten here in London that there are small towns where the closing of a single works practically puts all the people of the borough or community on their backs. There are places of from 15,000 to 20,000inhabitants remotely placed from the great centres of industry, and it is not an easy matter for those living there who are suddenly and unexpectedly placed under the great disadvantage of unemployment to find other occupations. I think a very great deal could be done by such regional Committees as I suggest in helping to circulate information as to the possibilities of employment in other areas, and generally in exchanging ideas as to the local methods which have been adopted successfully in one area being applied to another. I respectfully put the idea before the Minister of Labour for his consideration. I feel, notwithstanding what was said by the Noble Lord (Lord Hugh Cecil) as to the almost insoluble recurring problem in industry of unemployment; notwithstanding what he said in criticism of these measures that the plan the Minister has outlined is practicable and a workable plan and one which can be applied with great good to the country, and I am sure it will be considered and supported in that sense.
I was very much struck with the remarks of the Noble Lord and his higher philosophy, particularly upon the subject-matter this House is now discussing. He suggested that the remedy for unemployment is lower wages, and that greater elasticity in the rise and fall of standards of living would sweep away the whole of the difficulties and fears of these painfully recurring periods of unemployment in this country. I never before heard such an economic argument. At the moment, too, under the exceptional world-wide circumstances! For we have the strange fact that in the countries where wages are lowest, the cost of living is higher than it is in this country. So that that law of economics propounded by the Noble Lord certainly does not fit. I would suggest that high economics is a poor solution to put before the unemployed man, and that is the particular class that we are faced with at the moment. It is a poor solution, poor food for the hungry child, and the anguished mother in the house, faced with these hard periods and times. We ought to apply our minds to a more practical sense of things, and deal first as practical men with the problem as it presents itself at the moment. The Government, too, ought not to neglect any opportunity that presents itself to grapple with this problem, in season and out of season, with the view of being prepared with some more permanent and sound solution of difficulties that are bound to become more acute. I venture to suggest that whatever schemes may be initiated that before this winter is over you will have perhaps the hardest and most anxious and trying time from the point of view of unemployment that we have ever had during the whole of the industrial history of this country. However it may be within the next few months as to history repeating itself, as it did in a small way after the South African War, matters are likely to be even worse afterwards than now. It is for that reason that I want to urge the House to give larger and broader powers to the Labour Minister, for I am not satisfied that £3,000,000 at the disposal of the Central Committee to assist local authorities in carrying out work is going in any measure to be even a useful palliative for the time that is before us.
How many hon. Members, I wonder, have gone through periods of unemployed agitations? I have gone through far too many, and I know that economics are the worst things you can approach the man with who wants food, who wants work. Nobody has yet said a word on the position of the unemployed women. It has all been that the £3,000,000 must be devoted entirely to securing or helping to secure work for ex-service men. The building trade subsidy for the union is only to be spent for ex-service men. What is going to become of that 140,000 odd women workers who have been thrown out? Many of them are widows whose husbands sacrificed their lives in the War. They are responsible now for rearing perhaps a little family large in numbers. It is well understood by many hon. Members here. What are you going to do? What is proposed in this particular connection? You are leaving this class of woman with her dependents outside. I want to say this, that the terror of unemployment, bad though it is for the man who can trudge the streets in search of work and become despondent, even desperate—the man who gets into that frame of mind, in his desire to provide food for his kith and kin rather than they should drift under the Poor Law administration and so lose a great deal of that self-respect that we want to assist them to maintain—if there is that terror and suffering, if there is that desperate condition for the man, what shall we say of the woman who is left at home? She has got to do her best' to provide food for her children. Her heart-strings are torn and the finer fibre of her nature and delicacy is likely to be snapped and crumpled up under these conditions over which she and her male mate had absolutely no control. To go to these people—
Does the hon. Gentleman know that there are 80 women in Glasgow on the streets to-day because of the action of the trade unions in throwing them out of their work?
That is not so, my Friend.
I beg your pardon!
Allegations of that sort can quite easily be thrown out. Assuming that there were 80 women on the street, as the hon. Member says, through the action of the trade unions, how many are there on the streets through the acts of society and the system under which society is at present carried on? [An HON. MEMBER: " There are 80,000 in London! "] That is no argument. These people are unemployed at the moment and they require assistance and sustenance. Even assuming there is ground for the complaint the hon. and gallant Gentleman makes in one direction, is that any reason why they should be called upon to suffer if by the act of the State they can be assisted over a time of adversity? The Minister of Labour in introducing the subject mentioned that there was getting well on for half a million of unemployed. My right hon. Friend below me (Mr. Clynes) suggested that that figure was nearer a. million. I agree with him. There are large sections who at the moment have not registered at the labour exchanges, and my right hon. Friend will readily understand it more clearly perhaps when he knows that those whom he now proposes—and rightly so—and I am very thankful for it—to include for benefit under the existing Act all these thousands who became out of work and were not qualified for unemployment benefit—these kept away from the labour exchanges because there was no useful purpose to be served as registering as unemployed persons. If there is, as I suggest, nearer a million of our population at the present unemployed we have to multiply that million by another considerable figure. If we only take one half as being male adults and responsible for the average family of five, hon. Members can see that they have then two and a half millions. Allowing, also, in some cases at least, they are women, widows with family responsibilities, and others, I am going to suggest that there cannot be less than three and a half millions—men, women, and children—to-day in the United Kingdom who are suffering in consequence of the lack of the employment of those responsible for their maintenance. That becomes quite an astonishing figure! The municipalities are already heavily burdened, and will further be with the heavy burdens in prospect. We do not know exactly what percentage is proposed by the right hon. Gentleman, and if he makes any further remarks I hope he will tell us the basis upon which the £3,000,000 is to be distributed.
I did.
I did not quite catch it: what was the percentage?
We pay 30 per cent. of the wages.
Hon. Members quite see what it means? That 30 per cent. will only amount actually to something like 15 per cent. of the total cost to which the municipality will be put. Take the case of the material. If they engage in any useful productive work or useful national work, such as re-organising on a modern basis their sanitary systems in such cities and towns where it is necessary—
In any case they have to find 70 per cent.
They have to find the material, and then they receive 30 per cent. of their wage bill?
Yes.
I can quite see the extra burden coming upon the localities, and the locality that will require to spend most will be that locality or authority that has the poorest citizens, because the bulk of their casual workers will be, or are at the present moment, thrown out of employment. The City of Westminster is an authority that I imagine will not need to make any great call upon the money from the Central fund. But a place like Nottingham, or a borough like West Ham, for instance, will require all the help it can get. I have here a letter saying that West Ham estimate that their weekly cost in general relief will come to £20,000 per week. Three million pounds is a mere flea-bite, and it cannot adequately meet the dire necessity of the 3,500,000 persons who require sustenance at the moment. I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that if he is satisfied that a local authority can perform some useful work, that the 30 per cent. ought to be enlarged. I have in mind such things as public buildings. There is even this House of Commons, which could do with overhauling in order to give us a better system of ventilation. Our committee rooms upstairs are almost like dirty and delapidated stables, and I wonder hon. Members have not called attention to the state of the committee rooms before now. I suggest that there is much useful work could be done there. I think municipalities should also provide such work as a woman could be employed upon. Practically you say, " Never mind the women," and there is no provision for them. We are only subsidising where ex-service men are concerned. The soldier who lost his life, and left a widow and two or three children, and she happens to be thrown out of work, she must go by the board, because hon. Members suggest that provision should only be made for purely ex-service men.
In addition to the 3,500,000 people 6f whom I have spoken who are out of work, there is quite another 3,500,000 on short time, if you count their dependants. In many instances there are places carrying on where the workers have already agreed to work only two days a week in order to engage the full complement of the employés. Consequently they are only employed one third of the week in order that they shall have the advantage of two days per week. That method represents in many of the industries only an income of 22s. a week. If you work short-time in your depots where 66s. is a minimum wage, it would mean that for two days they would be earning only 22s. per week. These people are making a sacrifice, and why cannot the State be more generous and give more to those unfortunate workpeople.
It has been suggested that the ex-service men should be trained for bricklaying, tiling and plastering, but I would like to know if it was ever suggested to the building trade that there should be a system of promoting the men who have been labouring for many years in the industry enabling them to go up one step to bricklayers' work, and then fill up from the bottom, without any need for training, with the ex-service men who care to flow in. I think that would have disarmed the building trade of any suspicion, because if ever there was a surplus, you could revert to the original plan. It has been said that because a labourer is so useful as a labourer, he must always remain in that position. He was kept on his fixed minimum labourer's rate during the War, whilst other people who got into engineering works to evade military responsibility, got work at higher rates. I think if my suggestion had been adopted, you might have got over the difficulty in the building trade.
There is another point I wish to mention. With all the work you have in hand you have not yet absorbed 10,000 of this vast body of unemployed. I do not want the right hon. Gentleman to lose sight of the fact that there are 13,000 demobilised and disabled ex-service men in training through the Lord Roberts Memorial Workshops and other schemes of that character. I would like the right hon. Gentleman to look into this question because I have received some letters which state that unless the Lord Roberts Memorial Workshops—I believe there is one at Nottingham, and another at Fulham—is given a grant to carry on, there is a possibility that the very men whom we are all so anxious to serve and who are undergoing training, will have to submit to a reduction of pay, and they certainly will not have the 5s. efficiency pay, and the place may close through lack of a demand for their products unless something comes to their aid and assistance.
What is the use, on the one hand, of dealing with the problem, temporarily it is true, by asking the Government to grant sums for work to absorb a body of unemployed, while on the other hand you will yourselves by withholding a little aid place a large number on the unemployed market, and you will never be able to palliate the suffering caused in conse- quence? I feel that £3,000,000 falls a long way short of what is required. There is not an hon. Member of this House who does not view with a great deal of anxiety this period of unemployment. The majority of the men unemployed were engaged in the War. . Their outlook. and their estimation of the value of life under certain circumstances is much different than it was in 1914, when almost two years before the cessation of hostilities, the country was told that a reconstruction committee had been set up. We found at the termination of hostilities that this country was as little prepared for peace as it was for the War that happened in 1914. Whilst you have an abundance, these men read answers to questions here. They read of 17,000 tons of mutton under the control of the Food Ministry being wasted, and they have not an ounce on their tables because they arc unemployed. Is this not all the more significant in a peaceful time of organisation, in view of the more subtle and more dangerous methods happening amongst the unemployed such as the temporary taking over of the places which have been alluded to. If ever we get into a time when that discontent shows a great sense of physical development, then perhaps we shall wish we had tackled this problem in a more generous manner.
I do not like a dole no matter how well-intentioned it is, and in my view many philanthropists do more harm than good. What can it mean if one individual goes into a hundred houses and you afterwards get a picture scene of a lady bountiful, for advertising purposes, depositing a few articles of clothing or sending along some little monetary assistance? Would it not be much better if this House would give the Minister of Labour power to spend more money? Certainly I will not vote against his proposal, but I am certain that if this House rises before Christmas and does not come into Session again until the middle of February many things may happen during the Christmas period, and is it not irony that within a week we shall be seeing everywhere the motto " Peace on Earth, Goodwill to Men." It is not irony that there may be within the sound of the chime of Christmas bells empty tables, and there may be sitting at them anxious mothers, foodless children, and perhaps workless husbands, because the State has neglected to see to it that some provision should be made for the necessary food to keep them as good, sound, healthy citizens, and has neglected to-make some provision to give them useful employment which would be much more acceptable to them than a dole.
The Debate so far has been proceeding on parallel lines It began from one aspect with preventatives and from the other with the cure for unemployment. One hon. Member said that in dealing with the aspect of palliatives you should have more humane considerations. Dealing with the question from the aspect of prevention of unemployment, there is much more scope for economic consideration. I have a very few words to say about each aspect of the question. In the first place as to the palliatives about which the Minister for Labour spoke. I join in what is something like a chorus of congratulation to the Government upon what amounts to an enormous improvement in their scheme of remedies, because it brings the remedies proposed into some relation with human nature. Those who are trying to cope with unemployment as long as they had only the scheme of road construction, knew they were dealing with a remedy unsuited to the evils to be dealt with. With this more flexible instrument, 1 think we shall have in our hands means which will give us a much better hope of remedying the immediate evils of the bad times before us.
7.0 P.M.
May I say a word in support of the desirability of bringing the organisation which is to administer this new fund more closely into relation with the localities. There is no doubt not time enough at this period to erect an elaborate scheme of regional organisation, but there are perhaps simpler methods of doing it by travelling sub-committees or even by travelling reporters for the Central Committee to bring them in close touch with the regions. I feel that the weakness of the Government scheme, if there be a weakness, is from the point of view of the economiser. We have come to the view that we should not do- anything until we know exactly where it is taking us as regards financial commitments. I feel very strongly about this scheme that we are not informed with sufficient accuracy what the possibilities are as regards the expenditure which is being incurred. There are £6,000,000 for roads and £3,000,000 for local schemes. I have an unfortunate sense that the £3,000,000 has been by way of an after-thought. The Government, apparently, first said £6,000,000 should be enough, and then, apparently, they found that another £3,000,000 must be added in order to include the new manner of organisation. I confess the economiser's heart would have been happier about it had the second £3,000,000 been put in in substitution of £3,000,000 spent upon roads and not in addition to it. We should like to know what is the extension of the Unemployment Insurance Act to cost. About that perhaps we will hear in the subsequent observations of the right hon. Gentleman (Dr. Macnamara). That is capable of definition with some precision.
I would also like to know how much we shall be incurring in the region of the building scheme. That is also vague, and there is no possibility at the present time of greater precision. But these criticisms appear to me to be not of the same degree of gravity as the criticism to be made against the specific provision for this extraordinary payment of the £5 bonus to men admitted to the building trade. I understand that this offer has been made and not yet accepted, and I venture to express the most earnest hope that there is some misgiving aroused in the minds of those responsible for the conduct of the trade unions which holds them back from accepting this offer. Its finance is difficult to understand. As far as I can understand, this is to be in addition to the Unemployment Insurance Fund; but at the same time and in the same breath the right hon. Gentleman tells us that in the opinion of the Government—an opinion with which all inquirers will agree—there is no risk of unemployment. Therefore it is a bonus, and when I look for a word which describes it more accurately I can find no other word than blackmail. £5 a head is to be extracted from the nation in order to induce the unions to recognise an ex-service man's right to get back into employment. The bargain has not yet been completed. Were it completed it would be a bargain of a scandalous nature. Possibly the Government may be forced into it, possibly the blackmailers may be strong enough to force this bargain on the country. If so, we can but express our sympathy with a Government which finds itself in such a position, and our lack of sympathy with the moral condition of those people who are able to accept it.
It was about the other aspect of the question of unemployment that I wanted to say but one remark, and that is the aspect of finding a remedy which will be more in the nature of prevention, but which, by prompt and efficient application, might do much to effect an actual cure in the next few months. The industries with which I have been most closely in touch as far as unemployment is concerned exist on orders from the Continent. These orders are not coming in. These orders are not coming in to some extent because there is not money enough to buy. For that there can be no remedy but peace and work. But to some extent also it is not due to any such hopeless cause as that. It is simply due to the breakdown of the machinery of credit. For that mere breakdown of machinery more artificial methods may be found. In the countries from which the orders come, which are the lifeblood of the industries of which I am thinking, there are large and valuable assets—enough to support credit to enable these countries to restart the production of wealth by obtaining raw material, machinery, and so on. The assets are there, the supply is here. All that lies between them is the breakdown of the machinery of credit. They could get going if only they could get the credit machinery working. Practical proposals have been tried, have begun to work, and need only to be run with energy, with ability, and with good will to achieve the end we desire.
There are three proposals. There is the scheme of finishing credits for the countries least depressed, where the credit machinery has been least broken up, but stands in need of fostering. There is the scheme we have heard more of of late, the return to barter. We have not done very much with it yet, but very possibly when the time comes to resume trade with those countries which have been most shattered, where the credit machinery has been most shattered by the events of the last few years, we shall for a time find that barter through some form of Clearing-house is the only way to set the wheels turning. These are imperfect methods, but a far more perfect method has been laid down by the Financial Conference at Brussels. It is the method of the international pawnshop. By the establishment of a Commission of the League of Nations these assets, these bases of credit to which I have been referring, can be pledged, can be turned into bonds, which are issued as collateral. This is a scheme of the highest hope, but it is a scheme which requires a very big lift from the Governments concerned, and hearty co-operation to get it into working order. If it could be done it would be the finest day's work yet accomplished, merely from the point of view of this question of unemployment. It is a matter of machinery; it is not a matter of creating wealth at all. There is such great work as that to be done on the mere side of improvements of machinery, but on the other side there are these palliatives, which I, for one, most heartily welcome as greatly improving the situation.
I am quite sure the Government can count upon a sympathetic reception by this House of any reasonable proposals they can put forward which are calculated to help the country in its present state of industrial and economic difficulty. I recognise myself that, situated as we are at the present moment, proposals more or less after the nature of those we have listened to tonight may be, and almost certainly are, urgently called for. They are unsound economically, as many speakers have stated. I for one wish that the Government would have put forward something more productive and useful. I do feel disappointed, and I think the country will feel some disappointment, that so important a Member of the Government as the right hon. Gentleman should stand up in this House at the present time, when we have this great industrial cloud hanging over us, dealing only with these temporary palliatives and absolutely avoiding the great economic problems which have produced the trouble and which are going to make it vastly worse. I do hope that in this Debate from now onwards we can get on to a higher plane, and get, if possible, from some later speaker on the Treasury Bench a real lead for the country in face of the real and genuine danger. This is not just a periodical or temporary labour problem or unemployment problem; it is something infinitely deeper. We are all in the vortex of a world chaos, and the country is looking to the Government for a lead. There is just as much latent patriotism in the hearts of the people of this country, of all classes, as there was during the War. We all realise the danger, and the enormity of the danger, which surrounds us at the present time, and there are plenty of willing people of all classes ready to put their backs to the wheel and try to move things in the right direction, but they must have a lead. We want to be told in particular what policy is to be followed by the present Government, and upon what lines organised employers, organised capital, and organised labour can help to place us in the position we deserve to be placed in if only we take the opportunities open to us.
This responsibility of the Government, of which I see such an absence to-night, is really to my mind an extremely sad feature, because, so far back as 1917, I was one of many hundreds of people who were at that time taken away from the immediate dealing with matters of State in order to prepare a scheme of reconstruction after the War to meet the economic changes which were pointed out to us, and which we were asked to prepare for. I believe that in that year the Ministry of Reconstruction was set up, and it proved one of the biggest fiascos ever known. I mention that to show that this great evil of unemployment is a very large, very important, and very pressing section of the great economic problem which we knew was coming, and which I say with every regret that this present Government has been lamentably weak in preparing for. It is true that we are victims of great world economic conditions, which in many respects may be described, quite reasonably, as more or less outside the power even of a Government. But there are many other directions in which this Government could within the last year or few months have taken steps to assist capital, to assist the employers of the country, and to assist labour to co-operate together for one common end in tiding over danger and building up a much more safe and stable future. It is true that when we look into the causes of unemployment we find they are manifold. World economic conditions are practically affecting every other country more or less. Heavy taxation in all countries that have been at war is affecting production and employment, and the greater the expenditure the greater is the burden on the industry of that country, on the production, and upon the labour employed there. I am not going to dilate on this to-night.
I have read not without some suspicion of the great Press agitation on the question of Government extravagance. I certainly have always been a supporter of a very drastic reduction in expenditure, because I am certain that before very long the impossibility of the Government getting revenue is going to force on them a very drastic reduction. But this problem of expenditure vitally affects the unemployment problem. There are many businesses in this country that are trading satisfactorily, but they are short of capital with which to increase their turnover or to extend their operations, by means of which alone can they reduce their overheads. They are short of capital, they are paying large amounts in taxes, they are forced to draw in their operations, and, in many cases where business is not very prosperous they are driven to cutting down part of their works and to turning men out of employment. There is only one other observation I would like to make in connection with unemployment. It is not only the State that can be accused of extravagance at the present time. The charge applies really to all the people in this country—to rich and poor alike. It is a vicious system which seems to have seized everybody in the country. If it is going to be to the advantage of the nation that people should be more frugal and that they should work and save, do not blame them for not doing so until the State sets an example and leads them in the right way to enable them jointly and as a community to really get back, and get back quickly, to a proper spirit of economy.
There is another great cause of this unemployment to which I will not make much reference because it is a thread-worn subject in this House. A very serious and abnormal position in connection with exchange is producing a disastrous effect on our powers of production. It may be that only within the last few weeks or months has there been any material impression made on British industry by the importation of extraordinarily cheap foreign-made goods. Nevertheless it is operating to my knowledge not only in this country in reducing our productive powers, cutting down industry and increasing unemployment, but it is depriving producers here of the orders which should come to British manufacturers from abroad. A less important cause of this unemployment may be summarised under several heads of internal difficulty. I agree that profiteering, let us be frank, is rampant in this country at the present time, and is playing a great part in stultifying production and increasing unemployment. High wages is another cause, and that is a matter which I am afraid is going to be forced upon organised labour in a manner which has not hitherto been known. Industrial strife and threats of strikes in almost every industry in the country since the Armistice have been a most potent factor in increasing the cost and reducing the power of production and the power to trade with overseas markets. None of these matters were referred to by the right hon. Gentleman. I realise that as Minister of Labour he came down to the House to-day mostly impressed with the need of telling Members exactly what he is doing in his Department to meet the present aspects of the problem. Let him not forget he is not touching the root cause of the trouble with which he is dealing. That is a responsibility of the Government which is not taking the House or the country into its confidence. It is not telling what is going to be its policy. It is giving the country and Members of this House no lead whatever that will help us to go on the best possible lines in order to realise the ultimate restoration of our industrial position.
I wish to throw out, to the best of my ability, one or two little suggestions which I consider are worthy of the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman, because even if they do not directly concern his Department he, as Minister of Labour, is concerned with all problems that affect labour in any shape or form, and it is his duty, if any proposal will benefit labour, even though it may concern another Department, to leave no stone unturned to see that his responsible colleague does seriously look into the matter. In the first place, I want to make what I believe is an absolutely new suggestion with regard to dealing with the importation of foreign-made goods at excessively low rates, especially owing to the effect of exchange. I am not dealing now with a proposal which has been circulated to every Member of this House by the Member for Chippenham (Mr. Terrell) on the question of a sliding duty. I do not want to touch duties now, but I do want to suggest to the Government, with this old fiscal problem in its acute abnormal position to-day, or under the old conditions—whether enormous good would not be done if the Government were to adopt a policy by which, if a majority of employers in any industry and a majority of the trade unionists are in favour of certain steps being taken to protect the productive powers of that industry, the Government should give special consideration to them. What I want to do is largely to throw the responsibility for fostering our industries, not only upon employers and capitalists, but on the labour employed in the industry. If it is impossible to get labour in the industry to agree, then it must be up to the employers to satisfy the trade unions that it is a sound and wise thing to do. Where the two sides do agree, I can hardly think that very much harm could be done . to any other section of the community in the matter.
This is not new.
I never heard it put forward in public before. The second point I desire to make is addressed to organised labour itself. There should not be and there cannot be any body of people in this country who have a greater power or ability to help us in finding a real solution of the unemployment problem than those officially connected with Labour, and I think they cannot complain if I deplore the fact that they seem to contribute nothing towards a practical solution of the problem. They say on the one hand that the system is wrong; that you must abolish private enterprise and socialise the world.
That has never been argued by us.
At any rate, that view is put forward by some representatives of organised labour in this country
It is the only way out.
I am sure my hon. Friends will agree with me that, however much they may believe in that, it will not help us to-day, to-morrow, or next week.
The next suggestion they appear to make is that inasmuch as the capitalist system is a bad one, and they entirely disagree with it, the capitalists and the State must take over full responsibility for adequately supporting everybody who is not in full employment. That really does not help us under present conditions. I feel to-day we can appeal to the official representatives of Labour as we have never done before. I have been absent from this country during the last three months, and in our Colonies I have seen newspapers containing cabled extracts from speeches by the right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) and others, who, from time to time, speaking in the country on this question, have declared that there is a new spirit at work. Indeed, the right hon. Member for Derby has been telling his friends every week that they have to work. I agree. That is an encouraging sign. We want, if possible, to keep up a high rate of earning capacity in the working people of this country. The higher their earning capacity, the greater is the national prosperity. In many industries we cannot, under present conditions, maintain the present rate of wages in face of foreign competition, unless there is a bigger output—in other words, unless we can keep the cost of wages, per article produced, compatible in some degree with what prevails in competing countries. If hon. Gentlemen who officially represent the Labour party want to do all they can to keep up the present rates of wages, they have got, through their colleagues throughout the country, to take some steps at once to see that the working people give a full output for the wages which are paid. If that is not done, there will be more unemployment, and automatically, in my judgment, there will be a tendency, which later will become a fact, to decrease the rates of wages at present paid in this country. I know that in some industries it is possible to maintain economically the present rates of wages, if only those receiving them will do their utmost to help the businesses which they serve and to make the wages paid to them profitable.
The second point that I would commend very strongly to everyone, and especially to the official representatives of Labour, is the urgent need for bringing about throughout the country, in each of the staple industries, a fixed wage for such a period that employers will be able safely to make contracts. I can say from absolute knowledge of contracting work that we are losing to-day valuable orders which we badly want—not so much on account of price, as because people abroad, who are reconstructing, have been very badly let down lately. They will have no more of it. They are ready to pay 50 per cent. more if only they can be assured of delivery at a reasonable promised date. As things are in this country to-day, very few employers or heads of businesses can make contracts abroad, either in the Colonies or where-ever it may be, and give a written guarantee of delivery by a reasonable promised date. That is because they do not know from one month to another what may take place in their industry with regard to labour, strikes, and rates of wages. It would help enormously and quickly if organised Labour could let the country know that it is prepared, of course, on a reasonable basis, to make some new arrangement whereby the heads of industries can be assured that they can with safety make valuable contracts overseas.
My last point concerns the Ministry of Labour itself. I spent a large part of last winter with four other business men, all pledged to try and find the real honest truth of the labour problem. A very great deal of work was done on it, and we came to a conclusion which I will not suggest is entirely new, but which I do not hesitate to force with all the power I possess, because I believe it to be right. The sooner you can make unemployment a charge on industry the less unemployment and misery and wage trouble there will be. I say that, not only on my own behalf, but on behalf of four other men who, like myself, are engaged in industry. The transition stage will be troublesome, but it will have most valuable effect, first of all in bringing the employer and the worker into the closest daily harmony of working to keep the industry going, and keep it prosperous for the benefit of them both; and, secondly, the day that you make unemployment a charge upon the employer, upon capital, and upon labour, in some reasonable and acceptable way, all the best brains in industry are going to set to work to scheme by every possible means for the prevention of unemploy- ment, and the reduction of the attendant hardships among the working classes to an absolute minimum. There was a letter in the " Times " of last Saturday, signed by a Mr. Fisher, throwing out a proposal which certainly struck me at once as being a dangerous one to put into practice. The writer was very anxious to suggest that money paid by the State to help the workmen to tide over the present difficulties should be paid, if possible, in some direction that would be productive and not unproductive. I do not for a moment suggest that his proposal to subsidise the Wage Bill is one that would work or would be satisfactory; it would be attended by tremendous dangers. If, however, the Minister of Labour would go out of his way to consult all the best elements in industry, both employers and labour, as to the means by which this money could be used in a productive instead of an unproductive way, some solution might be found, and, if that could be done, it would be an enormous advantage to this country. As other hon. Members have said, when all is said and done, if we have to pay £10,000,000 or £15,000,000 to help people to tide over the present period of distress, it really only aggravates the trouble if that money is spent in an unproductive manner. Nothing should be left undone by any Member of this House to help in getting off this system of doles and in finding some more productive and practical way in which to help those who need help, and to benefit the State at the same time.
I recognise that many hon. Members will desire to speak in a Debate of this importance, and, accordingly, I shall try to summarise the one or two criticisms which I propose to make of the proposals which the Government have made to-day, and to offer what seems to us on these Benches to be a better way of tackling this problem. I feel that, probably, we shall not be best qualified to deal with the problem if we exaggerate its character Of course, the consideration is a very serious one that we have 500,000 or 600,000 people who are definitely ascertained to be out of work, and probably, in reality, 1,000,000 people without occupation, with 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 in the aggregate depending on their efforts. We have to keep in mind, however, the fact that we have just passed through the greatest war in the history of the world, entailing tre- mendous economic and other dislocation; and that, everything considered, it is a matter for surprise that, on the whole, unemployment is not more pronounced than it is to-day. If we begin on that note of optimism, we shall have something like a true idea of proportion in regard to the problem, and shall be better fitted to apply our minds to the remedies for the situation. For two years after the signing of the Armistice we have been carrying on a great many of the artificial conditions of war, and have kept in being a range of effort that was not going to be justified by events. The slump, or whatever we like to call it, is coming more dramatically almost every hour, and we are now becoming increasingly conscious of the real difficulty confronting the State. It all resolves itself into a problem of organisation. Can we organise our industry and commerce, and can we use our immediate resources to deal with this situation? Can we make provision for a round million of people who now are experiencing great hardship in our midst?
The first proposal upon which I venture to offer some criticism is that we should pay a £5 bonus to the building unions for the training of men. Speaking for myself at the moment, I regard that as a dangerous and mischievous proposal, and as a bad precedent to set for labour in this country. Taking the whole of the circumstances into consideration, I think that it is not necessary, and I desire to point out that, according to the knowledge that I possess at the moment, although I may be wrong, it has not been requested by the building unions. If that be true, no question of blackmail, as suggested by an hon. Member on these Benches, could arise. Part of the policy of the building union has been mistaken, but I would ask hon. Members to look at the whole situation, the bad and the good, and to ask themselves whether we are now embarking upon a proper remedy. It is mainly housing that we have in mind in this connection, and, according to a recent return, only a comparatively small proportion of the carpenters and other building operatives in this country are engaged on housing schemes at all. The difficulties in regard to housing were to a large extent other than labour difficulties. We had the question of materials, and the question of departmental regulations.
We had a hundred and one problems to face before we could embark upon the erection of any house property at all, and a great deal of labour was directed to profitable repair work and to work on property other than housing accommodation, which offered a better return to the builders, and, it may be, to the operatives engaged. That must be clearly borne in mind when we are thinking of housing, or the proposed dilution of the building trades on the side of the operatives, and the response which could be made in the absorption of ex-service men into the ranks of this great and undoubtedly, at the moment, urgent industry.
There is another consideration which I venture to press very strongly. Those of us who have been associated with disablement committees in large centres of population are painfully aware of the following facts. A very large number of the ex-service men who are unemployed at the present time are in receipt of pensions of comparatively small percentages, for degrees of disablement which are assessed from time to time, and which compel them to be more or less under the protection of some form of medical skill or attention. This recent War imposed to a large extent new conditions upon the personnel of the. Army. It exposed them to very grave risks, and to very great strain of a nervous character, and we have had occasion in some districts to analyse many thousands of schedules containing human facts of a tragic and depressing character, applying to very large numbers of men. We find time after time among these schedules the entry of nervous disorders and various complaints which absolutely unfit these men altogether for absorption in almost any part of the building industry. Before men can engage in almost any department of building enterprise they will be required to ascend certain heights and to take their place and their turn on scaffolds. They cannot be allocated to the work of foundations. That is not a division which can be readily established. They must take all classes of work as the classes come along. We found, on making an effort to get these men absorbed into the building industry, that this applies to a very large number of the men now under discussion, that they cannot go any height at all, and the training was abandoned in different parts of the country. That training was undertaken with the consent of the local technical advisory committees, not perhaps to a very great extent, but with their consent and with a genuine effort to find a solution if they possibly could, and that applies to a very large number of men.
You are speaking of disabled men.
It goes beyond the purely disabled men, because many of the demobilised are practically in the position of disabled men. They receive very low grades of pension, or are, at all events, in that state of physical health which makes their case not essentially different from that of the disabled men whom perhaps the right hon. Gentleman has more particularly in mind. A large question which was raised in the building trade was this. Could the Government have come to the building industry and made a firm offer of a guarantee of employment? Could they have said to the building operatives through their unions and their organisation, " We are satisfied that the arrears of housing are so great that we can take the responsibility of telling you that your employment will be regularly guaranteed for so many years ahead, and we will fulfil our bargain with you by making the other conditions affecting the building industry as easy as we possibly can?" I have no hesitation in saying that, looking to the great arrears of the local authorities, looking, after all, to the comparatively small number of men, although it is perhaps considerable in the aggregate, who would have been covered by this industry, looking to all these conditions, that is a responsibility which with perfect safety the Government could have undertaken. If they had undertaken that responsibility, what is the situation that would have confronted us in Labour. They would then have said to the building unions, "We guarantee you employment because of these conditions for so many years, and we ask you to take these numbers of ex-service men into your ranks under that guarantee." There is no question of monetary payment on the mischievous basis of the scheme for training at £5 per head. They would have made that definite offer, and the Government would have come along behind them and said, " We shall attend to the collateral problems of building material, and we will see that they are provided at bedrock prices. We will see that you get a fair chance in the industry of providing houses or of anything else," and, in my judgment, if the Government had taken that course their position would have been impregnable, and I should have been prepared to say that if in these circumstances the building union had refused to take these men they had absolutely no case at all before this or any other tribunal. That may seem bold. It may be regarded by many as an advanced programme. But we are dealing with a desperate situation, or, at all events, one which is in many parts of the country becoming desperate. A bold policy would have been justified. The Government case would have been firm and strong. The men would have known that there was a guarantee which, I am satisfied, would never have involved the Government in anything at all, and we should have been prepared to bring all possible pressure, which even now we are prepared to bring, upon the trade unions in that industry to take these men. I am satisfied that the dole of £5 per head, or the training subsidy, or by whatever name we like to call it, is a bad policy. It is something which will be bad for the unions. It is setting a precedent which must spread and must be applied to other organisations, and it is interfering with the structure of the training schemes of the Government in what I believe will be a way disadvantageous to the men and disadvantageous to the State.
The second consideration to which I would direct attention is the proposal to help the local authorities. On that point up to this stage we have had no ruling from the Government as to their attitude towards the distress committees save that they do not intend to repeal the Unemployed Workmen's Act of 1905. They intend to continue the distress committees in being, and, according to a reply given yesterday, if they find an opportunity of using their services they will take occasion to do so in perhaps the by no means distant future. It is going to help us very greatly indeed in the local authorities if we can have a definite ruling upon that problem. The distress committees are composed of representatives of the local authorities. I do not know how they are constituted in England, but in Scotland they are representative of the town councils on the one side and the parish councils on the other, with a certain number of people who are interested in and have knowledge of the problems of unemployment. According to the terms of the Act of 1905, these schemes of the distress committees must not compete with the economic effort or endeavour of people in the localities, and, above all, there must not be paid to the people under these schemes what we should call a firm standard rate of remuneration for the work. I am willing to admit that, according to such investigation as has been made, in some districts a very fair rate has been paid, but in other districts a very low rate has been paid in pre-war times, and these schemes could only apply to what we call in Scotland, with very great respect but also with great accuracy, the semi-derelict class, which, after all, is not the class for which we are legislating at present. In addition to that, the schemes of the distress committees under the 1905 Unemployment Act were very largely uneconomic in character, and my strong submission is that there is no need, and there is certainly no place in this country for any scheme of an uneconomic kind where there are such great arrears of perfectly healthy and economic work.
Let us settle that issue of the distress committees under the 1905 Act. Are they to get any funds at all? I can see no future for them, and it would be very much better to concentrate our efforts in the local authorities, give them additional powers, give them, if necessary, more money, and let them overtake in the best way they can the tremendous amount of work now lying to their hand. In the course of the Debate some days ago I made the suggestion that if we gave the local authorities full power, a fair chance and reasonable conditions at present, I would almost go the length of saying they could very nearly absorb the whole of the people who are now out of work. After all, we are ceasing to believe in centralised State schemes of dealing with unemployment. We are coming more and more to believe in the power of the locality and in the power of the industry itself, and if we work along those two lines of solution, not only shall we get work better calculated and more likely to be economic in character, but we shall get the men absorbed in the locality where they are known, where most perhaps can be done for them, and we shall avoid the waste and the overlapping and the inevitably uneconomic character of many of the centralised State schemes that we have known in other times. As regards the local authorities, I make these definite suggestions. North of the Tweed, and I am told also South of the Tweed, many important schemes in transport, in electricity, in housing, in a hundred and one other things urgently required to-day, are held up because of Departmental regulations and because of continual reference to London, in our case 400 miles away. I know of thousands of pounds' worth of work in my own city at present which is being delayed for months and months because of regulations of that character, and notwithstanding all our efforts during the late autumn, and our fears as to unemployment in the winter now upon us, we are still battling with the entrenched bureaucracy of these great Departments. It is hopeless to deal with any problem of unemployment under conditions like that. I should recommend in these housing schemes the withdrawal or the abandonment of a great deal of that reference. If you can standardise to any extent, if you can hand over to the local authority some of the powers of this House, if, broadly and generally, you conform to these tenets—and the local health officials are not likely to let them down— you will get work done which is to-day delayed, you will give the local authority a power it does not now possess, and it will help you in the solution of your unemployment difficulty.
8.0 P.M.
The third and last suggestion I am going to make is this: It must be carefully remembered that much of the unemployment is not due to the quite understandable and, it may be, legitimate fear on the part of trade unionists of possible unemployment in the future. A great deal of the unemployment is due to an equally understandable hesitation on the part of employers, on the part of men who have capital to invest in industry, and who are doubtful now regarding their markets in different parts of the world. To that end we require European peace. I most strongly urge two considerations which were pressed with very great force and eloquence by the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Lieut.-Commander Young). He expressly invited the Government to have regard to this problem of the exchanges, and above all to investigate whether it is not possible to meet it to some extent by a system of European, or it may be world, barter. I am satisfied, from what little investigation on the problem of the exchanges we have been able to make on this side of the House, that if we are going to wait for orthodox and ordinary remedies we may have to wait a very long time. The economic investigation which has been conducted so far under the League of Nations, and by other committees on the Continent of Europe, has pointed to this, that it would probably pay this country in the restart of its industry to embark on a generous scheme of pooling our European resources, certainly in the raw materials of industry, and building up for a time a system of barter or interchange which will most freely and easily restart industry, and take the only sure step towards providing employment for all concerned. That is the outside problem. I think the difficulty of credit is not insurmountable, but there is also the internal problem applying to this country as a whole. By all means let us engage in arterial roads. Let us help the work of the local authorities. Let us make an allowance, generous and fair, to the unemployed, as long as that device is strictly necessary; but let us begin now to organise each industry from the point of view of what it can absorb in men, women, and young persons in Great Britain. To some extent that is being done by enlightened employers and trade unions, but it is not generally done yet, and the result is that we are losing markets through nothing more than mere hesitation, and in some cases pure ignorance of the facts. It was pointed out the other day that we had lost a considerable portion of the Japanese market, and one of the reasons was the high price we were compelled to charge, and the other the uncertainty of delivery. Surely these problems lend themselves to investigation. These are difficulties which affect employment in this country. I should like to take each industry by itself, and I would make the fullest investigation and try to find out what that industry could absorb, and build up a policy of that kind in regard to each industry at home. In that way I think we should have a campaign against unemployment better than any we have yet produced, and we should probably have found the real road to a remedy for this great social and industrial disease.
It is very unfortunate that this useful Debate did not take place on the 19th October, when the Prime Minister made his statement to the House on the resumption of the Session as to the steps the Government intended to take not only to deal with the building question but with the problem of unemployment as a whole. Here we are on the eve of the end of the Session, and although a number of useful suggestions have been thrown out to-night, Parliament will dismiss and there will be no further opportunity until we meet again of seeing that these proposals are pressed or considered, and, if sound, applied. It is a question of organisation, a question of an amount of forethought and application to the problem, and we ought to have found some better and more sound solution than the mere application of remedial measures, which are all that the Government proposes at the present time. I do not propose to inquire into the causes of unemployment, though I do not think they ought to be entirely neglected. The hon. Member for Walsall (Sir R. Cooper) referred to one, when he spoke of the difficulty of employers making contracts involving the expenditure of large sums of money. Only this morning I was informed by a man who was in a position to place a very large contract on behalf of a public body, that he was utterly unable to create that employment by the expenditure of a million of money because of his sheer inability to obtain a contract at any price owing to the capricious use by labour of the resources at their command. It is impossible to overlook the fact that labour can hardly demand the right to work, if it will not use the opportunities for work which exist. By that I am not making any complaint as to the ca'canny policy, as it is sometimes called, but I am only suggesting that if there are facilities for employment, it is hardly right, as is done in the building trade, not to make the fullest uses of those opportunities, because of some apprehension as to what may happen in the future. The duty to work is surely a correlative of the right to work, and if labour could have its own way I am sure labour would insist upon the duty to work as well as upon the right to work. The duty to work is overlooked because of the apprehension as to whether there will be employment in the future. The remedies are, of course, difficult, but when the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday) asked for what he called higher and broader powers, he was not perhaps so clear as he would have wished to have been if he meant giving a larger sum in the nature of doles. He referred to the sum of £3,000,000 as being utterly-inadequate for the present situation. If he meant that £6,000,000 or £10,000,000 would be better than £3,000,000, I am not inclined to agree with him unless he is prepared to go a great deal further, and to point out how that money might be used upon useful work, and work which will be a real solution of the difficulty and not merely a temporary palliative. Higher and broader powers, if they mean simply more money, mean nothing. It is no contribution to the solution, but rather an aggravation of the difficulties in which we find ourselves.
The sum of £5 that is intended to be given to the trade unions for training men is simply another instance of loose-thinking, and the idea that if you scatter enough money about, spreading it sometimes thickly and sometimes thinly, you will solve the problem. I am glad that the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham) expressed his opinion, which agrees with the opinion of a great many other Members of this House, that the expenditure of money in that form is utterly unjustifiable. The hon. Member for Norwich (Lieut.-Commander Hilton Young) referred to it in rather strong terms, but I do not think that is the real explanation. I think this is a really honest effort on the part of the Minister for Labour, though I think an utterly mistaken effort, to secure a solution of the difficulties in the building trade. I hope that the Minister of Labour or the Minister of Health, or whoever is responsible, will abandon this proposal, because I am sure it is one which, if once put into force, will provide an unfortunate precedent for the future. When the hon. Member for West Nottingham referred to £3,000,000 as inadequate, he must have forgotten the unemployment donation, which, I understand, is now proposed to be continued in a restricted form until the end of March. Why was that unemployment donation continued? Not that one grudges money if it is going to do any good, but the money might be much better spent. I know that it has been the constant opinion of Labour Members that the money now spent in unemployment donation ought really to be spent upon productive work, if productive work can be found. It is much better that a man should have work and do something for his money than that he should sit idle and receive money for doing nothing. In face of such measures as we have lately passed, such as the Unemployment (Belief Works) Act which received the Royal Assent on the 3rd December, and in face of the powers which exist under other Statutes already on the Statute Book, how is it right on the part of the Government, without consulting the House, to continue this unemployment donation until the 31st March? The scheme was an unhappy one in the beginning, in so far as it gave money to people for doing nothing. I do not believe that they wanted it for doing nothing, and I think the money could have been better spent. Why is this unemployment donation being given when so much better schemes might have been devised?
I hope that some of the suggestions which have been thrown out in this Debate as to a proper use of whatever funds are available may lead to a solution of this question of unemployment. We want to get rid of the centralisation of the disposal of these funds, and to let the people on the spot do something to discover how best the money can be spent. The local employment committees could do a great deal in this direction. They are composed of equal representatives of workmen and employers, and they have a knowledge of local conditions which a Government Department in London cannot have, and they must be aware of many needs in their district. As the hon. Member who has just spoken said, in the matter of transport or reclamation of land, schemes might have been set afoot of great advantage to the public, quite irrespective of the fact that they will be providing employment where employment is so seriously needed. If the local employment committees could be allowed to have a very real influence upon the application of the money which is to be provided, I believe it would be used much better than if London Government Departments alone settled its application. There are many ways by which the ebb and flow of employment can be compensated for by setting up works of a public nature, by the acquiring of the spare parts, so to speak, for the industrial machinery, by doing work which will have to be done at some time, and I am sure the local committees will be able to make suggestions whereby they could compensate for the fluctuation of industry, and see that employment is provided, if funds are available, at times when ordinary industry perhaps, if left to itself, would not make that employment.
I want to say something as to the thoughts thrown out this evening as to the way in which industry should bear the burden of unemployment. I do not believe that we have gone nearly far enough yet with unemployment insurance. The view which I take, rightly or wrongly, on this question of unemployment, is that it is more psychological than actual; that it is the menace of unemployment which has to be removed. We see it particularly in the building trade. If only the people in the building trade could be brought to see what I think must be the fact, that there is building work for a generation almost, they would not be so quick to complain of schemes for increasing the number of persons in their craft. So it is everywhere. It is the menace of unemployment that has to be" removed. You may do little things in connection with unemployment insurance, but they are things not worth doing unless you go the whole distance and remove the menace of unemployment. You must get it out of sight of the labourer, before you really accomplish that which you set out to do. It seems to me that we have first of all to establish a scheme which will give a man not 15s. or any fixed amount, but which will give him some sum which bears a relation to his wages. I do not mean 100 per cent., but a sum which shall vary in proportion as wages vary. If he is a £5 man he should have more than a man who is only earning £2 or £3 a week. There should be a minimum, and there should be attention to the benefit which he draws for his wife or child or his children, so that the man and his wife and children may not merely subsist on a starvation sum. That would not remedy the menace of unemployment. It would be almost as terrible as, almost more terrible than actual employment without any money at all. We want to see, first of all, that the man re- ceives an adequate amount. To that end it seems to me that the State must be prepared to make a larger subsidy. It may be that some hon. Members think that the State provides enough, but I do not think the State could be called upon to provide too large a sum if only it could secure the advantage of removing the menace of unemployment. I would not stick at any sum if that object could be achieved.
The country ought to have learned a lesson from the experience of old age pensions. People used to wonder whether we could provide the £15,000,000 or the £20,000,000 for the purpose. ' We have learned the folly of that sort of thing, and now the State ought to be prepared to grant a large subsidy in order that unemployment insurance may be made a success. There still remains the employers' share. I hope that employers will realise their duty to see that their industry bears its fair share of supporting the workers of the industry in relation to unemployment. Directors of companies are familiar with the idea of a dividend equalisation fund. The fund that comes before that is a wages equalisation fund. All those industries have their ups and downs, good times and bad times. We used to discuss these questions in the old bad spirit which I hope is gone. Companies and trading concerns used to think of good times as the times when they distributed larger profits, not 10 per cent., which was justifiable, but 20 or 30 or 50 per cent., which made some of these wealthy men, founders of the large families that have been built up in that way out of industry. If wages equalisation funds had been instituted which would have permitted the payment of a proper contribution to an unemployment fund, not only in good times but also in bad times, we should not be face to face with these problems now. We should have solved them already.
I hope that the Government will be encouraged by this Debate and the experience of the present time to deal with this problem of unemployment in a bold and, if I may say so, adventurous spirit, not so much because I think that the fund is likely to be drawn on by the workers— I hope that in a few years it may be found possible to reduce the contributions —but because it would have more effect in inducing labour to put its back into work when available, with the great advantage of increasing production and cheapening the cost of living. I believe that employers have much to learn and, I hope I can say without disrespect, that labour has still much to learn. If only we can in the discussion of these problems take a long view, labour and employers have a great deal to teach each other. This seems to me to be the best way in which" the Government can take up this question of unemployment, and now that we are separating and the Government has its little schemes—and they are comparatively little schemes-let the Government be adventurous, take its courage in both hands, never mind catch words or whether they are charged with socialistic experiments, but take the long view which the situation demands, and I for one have no doubt that the capacity, coolness, and courage of the nation will be able to solve these difficulties as they solved greater difficulties in the past.
The tone of the last speech, and of several others, shows that, while we appreciate many of the results of the War, one good result is apparent in the better spirit manifested to-night. I remember in what my hon. and learned Friend called " the old bad days," when the question of unemployment came before this House many of the old dry-as-dust political economists, when the unemployed asked for bread, threw at them chunks of John Stuart Mill. We have not had too much of that stuff today. There has been slight objection now and then, and it is only right that we should remember the economic truths which lie at the bottom of these problems, but the kind of man who used to speak of economic laws as natural laws with which we should not interfere is gradually disappearing. You cannot have progress in any department of life without interfering with natural law. I used to think that some of these political economists, if they went to a great fire and saw firemen with a sheet ready to catch someone falling from the top, would remonstrate with them and say, "You ought not to interfere with the natural law of gravitation." There has been very little of that in this Debate.
I am not going to speak on the general question of unemployment, not because of any want of sympathy with the unemployed, because some of the most pain- ful and depressing experiences which I have had were as a medical man in some of our large towns, treating the poorer working classes during a period of unemployment. Nothing burns in more the lesson learned from the War, that we must all hang together, than an experience of that kind which medical men get when they see the difficulties of life among the poor more than any other class. During the War we used to grumble about the rationing scheme, and say that if we could all live upon paper coupons we should not require anything else. With all its evils, the coupon—I do not mean the political coupon, but the rationing coupon—established a good principle, that when scarcity comes every man, woman and child in the country is entitled to a fair share of whatever good things are going. That spirit has been manifested in this Debate, and I am glad to acknowledge it.
The industry to which I wish to direct attention is one that concerns not my constituency alone, but many parts of England and Scotland. It is in very great difficulty at present, and there is consequently a great deal of unemployment, not only now, but there is a prospect of it during the coming year. I refer to the pickled herring industry. From Lowestoft, Yarmouth, in England, and Grimsby, in England, to Scottish towns along the East Coast up to the Shetlands and then down the West Coast to Stornaway, there are great numbers of men and women engaged in this industry. There is no section of the fishing industry that for the same amount of capital employs so much labour as the pickled herring industry. The market for the herring industry is largely continental. Eighty per cent. of these cured herrings go to Russia, and only 20 per cent. to other parts of the world. Fair quantities went to America in recent years, and to Germany, but the great market is Russia. Many people do not realise that this is a big industry. It involves millions of money every year and employs hundreds of thousands of people, not only fishermen, but women, coopers, and so on. During the winter there will be many thousands of barrel makers idle because the employers dare not enter upon a big scheme of barrel making. The Government came to the assistance of this industry for two years by providing a guarantee, and there was a fair resuscitation of the industry after the War. But the Government has not been able to dispose of the herrings on the Continent, and the guarantee is to cease next year. That means unemployment for coopers, fishermen, and the women who clean the herrings.
We have heard a good deal about palliatives for unemployment. I do not despise them. The remedy which I want to recommend to the Government is one which has been already mentioned in general terms, and that is to do everything possible to promote peace in the countries of Europe. If we had had peace with Russia during the last year the pickled herring industry would be in a different position to-day. The Secretary for War has a cure of his own for Bolshevism, and he thinks it will be much more effective than the Prime Minister's cure. My cure is to feed the brutes with plenty of pickled herrings. There is no dainty more popular than the pickled herring with the great masses of the Russian population. I would suggest to the Government that if they want Bolshevism to vanish they should send the Bolshevists plenty of pickled herrings. It is a great pity that the food value of the pickled herring is not recognised in England as it ought to be. During the War thousands of men from the Western Isles joined the Navy, and I have heard officers of the Navy say that they were some of the best classes of men they had. During the winter most of these men live on potatoes and pickled herrings. I commend the food to the people of England in place of the roast beef that they eat every day. As a further remedy for unemployment the making of roads in rural areas is one of the most productive works that the Government could take up. If I had before me a map I could point to several places where roads could be constructed with great advantage to the community.
The country "will give a very warm welcome to the proposals of the Ministry of Labour. At the same time I hope that two limitations will always be borne in mind with regard to these makeshifts, however admirable they may be. The first is that these expedients are essentially of a temporary character, and ought not to be largely extended for an indefinite time. The second is, that it would be a most disastrous thing if the Government allowed themselves to be blackmailed into any further surrender to the building trade unions on the question of the terms upon which ex-service men are to be admitted to the unions. In the course of the Debate a good many criticisms have been offered. We have been told that the £3,000,000 is too little, that larger and broader powers ought to be exercised in order to provide an artificial demand of labour, and the suggestion has been made that a useful way of employing the unemployed is to set them at work overhauling the structure and furniture of this House. We have been told, also, that political economy ought not to be regarded in discussions of this character. If anyone believes that we can arrive at a state of prosperity by opening up all sorts of new artificial and unremunerative avenues for the employment of industry, it would naturally follow that political economy should be thrown overboard. It would be foolish in England at the present time if we repeated the folly which led the French revolutionaries of 1848 to open national workshops. We do not want to see a larger quantity of labour than is absolutely necessary devoted to unproductive work on roads, sewers, tunneling, and so on, in connection with these new arterial avenues of communication and traffic. Those are useful by way of meeting a temporary difficulty, but it would really be a most unhappy thing for the country if that was regarded as a real way out of the difficulties in which we find ourselves. It has been suggested that it is the duty of the Government to find work for labour in this country. It is not the duty of the Government to find work for the unemployed. The duty of the Government is to remove obstacles in the way of their unemployment. It would be an unfortunate thing for any country in our present state of industrial civilisation if labour looked to the Government and not to the ordinary means of trade and commerce for its employment in times of difficulty. The Government has discharged to the best of its ability its very difficult function of trying to remove obstacles in the way of employment. In the publication circulated amongst Members, entitled " 1916-20," wrought by very loving hands, there is an admirable survey of the work which the Coalition, especially the Liberal Mem- bers of the Coalition, have rendered to the country during the last few years. That record will show, I think, a very considerable measure of achievement so far as training is concerned, and in the direction of giving technical instruction to disabled and demobilised ex-service men, and providing technical centres, and the provision of the King's roll, and other matters of that sort. The duty and functions of the Government do not go beyond that, except in times of acute crisis like the present.
One hon. Member made a great point about the number of women unemployed at present. There is an enormous demand for the employment of women in domestic service. I really cannot understand when the ordinary household is most anxious to find a number of efficient women for the very excellent work which lies open to them in domestic service some of these women do not come forward and enjoy the shelter and good conditions which that life nearly always brings with it. An hon. Member speaking from the Labour Benches remarked how ironical it was to be discussing a very grave and troubled question of this character on the eve of Christmas. It is ironical but the irony lies in the extraordinary attitude taken up by the Labour leaders in coming here and deploring the prevalence of unemployment while at the same time they support the builders' union in excluding ex-service men from employment on one of the most immediate needs of the country. I know that in the city of Manchester, one of the divisions of which I have the honour to represent, the corporation has never been able to find more than 140 bricklayers since the beginning of the housing shortage upon the corporation's schemes, whereas something like 2,000 are acquired annually to meet the tremendous shortage of houses in that city. We also know that the existing houses are terribly overcrowded. You get four or five families living in houses constructed to accommodate one family, the results being overcrowding, limitation of marriage and the limitation of families. Those social evils would be averted and the acute shortage of houses would come to an end if the builders' unions had only the generosity and the honesty and the fair play to admit on just terms a decent proportion of the ex-service men who want employment and who are perfectly fitted for this manual labour. I put a question yesterday to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour, but unfortunately owing to the length of the reply he was unable to give it in the House. It was circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT, and I advise hon. Members interested in the question of the employment of ex-service men to consider what that particular case was. It arose with regard to the housing scheme of the Chadderton Urban District Council, a district situated between Manchester and Oldham. There an ex-service man was employed by a contractor engaged in that undertaking, and that contractor happened to pay him an additional sum in consequence of the exceptionally good work which he had been rendering. In other words he was paid by results for piece-work instead of by a flat rate, upon which the local building operators' union blacklisted the contractors engaged on that industry and secured the dismissal of a considerable number of men employed on that scheme. This, as the Parliamentary Secretary admitted in his answer, is a deplorable thing. That sort of thing is going to continue so long as you tolerate the selfish and heartless policy pursued by the builders' union.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) said that the aim of the Government ought to be to secure employment and secure contentment, two admirable principles with which I am sure we all concur. How do those who are in political sympathy with the right hon. Gentleman carry out the attempts to forward those two great principles? Are you forwarding employment when you insist that men shall not be paid by piece-rates, and when in housing schemes you bring about the dismissal of men who earn a good day's wage for a good day's work? What the builders are no doubt entitled to is security, but they are not entitled to monopoly, which is a very different thing. These people have protested against dilution on the ground that the ex-service man has not been through the same period of apprenticeship which they themselves have experienced. I would remind them that those ex-service men have gone into the trenches and have then gone through a sterner and nobler apprenticeship than any that those trade union leaders have ever known. We have been told that the last letter which the Minister of Labour read to the House represented an ultimatum on the part of the Government to the Builders' Union. It is not the first nor will it be the last ultimatum. An ultimatum usually means the last word, but these negotiations between the Government and the Builders' Union have been going on for over a year, and I believe there have been last words after last words and ultimatums after ultimatums. I hope that this will be the very last of the last words and the ultimate of the ultimatums, and if the unions do not accept this great bribe which has been offered to them this time I hope the bribe will be withdrawn, and that the Government will take its courage in its hands and do its own training for the ex-service men. The Government must fight the battle for individual liberty in this country so that the man who wants to earn a living in a trade which is demanded in the country should have the opportunity to engage in that trade in spite of all these monopolist prejudices on the part of unions who at the present time control that particular industry.
The hon. and learned Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Inskip) appealed to the Government to be adventurous. The finest adventure the Government can undertake to-day is to secure and safeguard these ex-service men in carrying on this great building industry, whatever it may cost and at whatever risk, because I know this, that if the builders' unions ever took drastic action in the event of the Government insisting upon a scheme of its own, public opinion among all classes and all parties in the country would be heartily with the Government, having regard to the magnanimous offers they have already lavished upon these recalcitrant unions.
I quite realise that all these questions which have been under discussion are only temporary expedients or makeshifts and do not really go to the bottom of this question of unemployment. Certainly, so far as the great staple trades of the North of England are concerned, they depend for their prosperity on the export of textiles to oversea markets, and so long as the consumers in those oversea markets are unable, owing to the existing rates of exchange, to pay for the goods which are waiting in England, so long will there be depression in those industries and so long will there be either half-time or un-employment. The greatest task, therefore, in front of the Government is not really to meet the no doubt difficult and acute troubles of manual labour, but it is to meet this supreme difficulty in the way of the great textile industries in the North of England, because at the present time the demand for Lancashire goods and Yorkshire goods in all the oversea markets of the world is enormous. The difficulty is not the non-existence of the demand there, but the difficulty is that the cost of production and supply has been so high and the rate of exchange has been so difficult that the foreign consumers are unable to take up and pay for these goods.
I was talking only a few days ago to a Bradford merchant, who explained the very great difficulty that Bradford was experiencing in selling its goods to countries like Scandinavia and Denmark, where, owing to the rate of exchange being so much more favourable to those markets in relation to Germany than in relation to England, in spite of their natural antipathy to buying German goods, they were perforce obliged to take up those goods, because, owing to the rate of exchange, they could pay for them and they could not pay for Bradford goods. It seems to me, therefore, that the greatest and most fundamental policy that lies before the Government is not so much the erection of temporary schemes in regard to roads and arterial traffic, however important they may be, as it is with regard to this great difficulty in the rates of exchange. On that ground, I disagree very much with the suggestion of an hon. Member below here that every industry where the employer and employed were agreed on a policy of protection ought to demand and to receive from the Government a high tariff wall round the particular products which that industry produced. That would be absolutely fatal, because unless we do receive imports from these over-sea markets, the rate of exchange would only get worse. I think we have every right to safeguard industries like the dye industry against being swept off its feet, but any suggestion of erecting high prohibitive tariff walls round the home market would, I am sure, be disastrous in the long run, because the rate of exchange would become even less favourable to barter or interchange of goods between England and overseas than it is at the present time, and the great textile staple industries of the North of England would suffer all the more. Of course, this subject of foreign exchanges is one I know very little about, and I believe Very few people do know anything about it. Indeed, I have read that only one person knows the real arcana of foreign exchanges, and he is in a lunatic asylum. The late Lord Goschen was thought to know something about it, but to the great mass of the people it is a very difficult subject indeed, and very humbly and tentatively I make the suggestion to my right hon. Friend that it might be wise to appoint a small committee of experts, if any, in this country who do understand this question—
You do not want to send them to the asylum, do you?
So that something may be done to adjust one of the root-causes of the short time and under-employment from which our country, particularly the North of England, is suffering. I believe it is only by going to the real root of the evils which we are enduring at the present time that anything like a solution of this question can be attained, and we may hope to see once again Old England as it was before the Great War, happy, peaceful, stable, and prosperous.
I do not know what sinister idea lurked in the peroration of the hon and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down. He has suggested that that there should be a committee of experts for the purpose of considering the currency question, and he has informed the House that the only expert on this question that he knows of is in a lunatic asylum. I venture to say that he is suggesting a far more cruel method of getting rid of this Government than even I would have suggested, though if that is the second best course to adopt, I shall most gladly and enthusiastically second the proposition which has been submitted by the hon. and gallant Gentleman. There was another purpose which the hon. and gallant Gentleman had when he rose to address the House, and I notice that there is an excellent desire on the part of hon. Members from various constituencies in the country to advertise their wares. My hon. Friend (Dr. Murray) was advertising pickled herrings a moment ago, and now we have the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down advertising the latest handbook which was issued as a sort of vindication of the Liberal Coalitionists. In my judgment you cannot vindicate the Liberal Coalitionists in a small hand-book. It would take voluminous productions issued from the offices of the Coalition, I think, to defend the Coalition Liberals, because I do not think there ever was a party in this country or in any other so indefensible as the Coalition Liberals. Fortunately, the hon. Gentleman the Member for Twickenham (Sir W. Johnson-Hicks) has a much more effective method of dealing with the Coalition Liberals, and again I say, in a spirit of goodwill and of comradeship, that I would join with the hon. Member for Twickenham or with any of the forces he can rally in that experiment, which I do not think will be a successful one, of decapitating an already played out factor in the policy of the British Empire. I wondered in the course of this discussion why it was that there was no reference to the continuance of wars in Europe which are costing so much money. No doubt there were pious aspirations in favour of peace, peace with Europe and peace with the world, but these pious aspirations do not count for much unless they materialise, and as long as Europe is engaged in a fratricidal war, so long as the peoples are set at each other's throats economically, and industrially, and politically, and internationally, I believe you never can adjust properly your economic and your industrial problems.
When I think that at the present moment you are spending upwards of £20,000,000 in the maintenance of a great army of occupation in Ireland, not there for the purpose of defending vital interests, but for the purpose of carrying destruction, I can only say that I am amazed that Englishmen, groping almost in the dark for some light that will guide them to a solution of this problem, seem to forget that here is £20,000,000 spent in one year in endeavouring to crush the Irish people, and in the policy of crushing them to crush their industries, to destroy their buildings, to ruin whatever prosperity exists in the country, commercially and agriculturally. And yet there is not a single word of protest in the course of this Debate. In Ireland, at the present moment, there are upwards of 100,000 people unemployed, and I do not think there ought to be a quarter of that number unemployed. Ireland is pre-eminently an agricultural country. It ought to be one of the most prosperous countries in Europe. We have now secured peasant proprietorship, and with peasant proprietorship we see the manifestations of enterprise and industry which are the direct results of security of tenure of the soil. Yet we have 100,000 people unemployed there, and only six months ago anyone who could visualise the economic and industrial situation could understand that unemployment was bound to come. Over 5,000 wage-earners in the great shipbuilding yards of Harland and Wolff were driven from their employment; not because there was not plenty of work, but either because of their religion or politics, and yet the Government does not raise a hand to have them reinstated, has never attempted to punish the male-factors who drove these people from their employment, but has allowed this persecution to go on, leaving these 5,000 men and their wives and children to the mercy of public charity or private philanthropy, and now there is a greater measure of unemployment in that great city; 20,000 men and women at the present time are suffering the greatest hardship, and I believe that at least £4,000,000, which would have been earned in wages on productive work, and expended in Belfast, has to be sacrificed as completely as if it had been taken out of the pockets of the workers and cast into the sea. I ventured myself to make an appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Labour Ministry to put the case of these men before him. They could not come within the provisions of the Unemployed Act, which came into operation on 8th November, because they could not pay their four weeks' instalments, as they were not in employment for nearly two months before that Act came into operation. I must say I found the hon. Gentleman very sympathetic, and that was one of the main reasons, but not the only reason, why I was so tremendously anxious that this question of the four weeks should be grappled with, and grappled with in a sympathetic spirit.
I am not quite sure whether the hon. Member is aware that we are introducing a Bill immediately after this to deal with this very point.
9.0 P.M.
I am quite aware of that, and I do not intend to take any part in the discussion on that Bill, but I am coming to that. Then we have the linen industry in Belfast in a most appalling condition. Over 40,000 hands in Belfast will be thrown out of employment for a period of not less than four weeks, and perhaps a longer period. Of these workers, about 90 per cent. are women. It is all very well for the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken to say, " Let them go into domestic service."
Let his wife go.
One would think that the only occupation for women was domestic service. I am very sorry that our industrial system demands that women should be engaged in these most unhealthy pursuits, but the great linen industry of the city of Belfast—and I suppose it applies to the great cotton industry of Manchester and other places —has depended for its greatness, strength and power as a weapon of national prosperity and wealth upon the work of these people.
At starvation wages.
At starvation wages. I know something about these women, and the sweated conditions under which they work. Little children have been brought in from the country with the roses on their faces, sent into these mills and factories at the ages of 9 and 10 to work for 2s. 6d. a week as half-timers, starting work at 6 in the morning and leaving at 6 at night, with three-quarters of an hour for breakfast and three-quarters of an hour for dinner. Before five years had passed, the roses had disappeared, and they had grown to be young girls with pallid faces, and it is recorded in the statistics of the Board of Health that the lives of these women averaged about 39 years. These were the people who created the profits, built up the prosperity, and enlarged the magnificence of the great city of Belfast, of whose prosperity we hear so much to-day. Yet here in this great moment of industrial crisis, 30,000 or 40,000 of them are to be cast out. The hon. and gallant Gentleman says, "What has the State got to do with finding employment for these people?" I am not an economic or industrial or philanthropic authority. I am a mere plain citizen, and I say here is a case where these people, from childhood to womanhood, have been working in the mills and factories, and because of the caprices of trade, because of war, because of economic accidents or designs or causes, there is nothing left for them but the dole which you propose to give them for eight weeks. It has not been stated how you propose at the end of that time to deal with the problem of these women. Then the great shipbuilding yards are also threatened with slackness of work, and a number of these will be added to the general volume of unemployed in Belfast. At the present moment the total number of unemployed in Belfast alone is something like 50,000. Deprived of their weekly earnings, these people and their families—more than half the entire population—will be faced with the direst hardship and suffering.
I come to the statement of the hon. Gentleman, in which he says he proposes to submit a Bill this evening dealing with this question of the four weeks. I desire to say that that is a most satisfactory declaration, and the Minister of Labour, when he was dealing with this question which we brought before him, namely, the immediate need of relief to the 40,000 women who are to be cast out of work by the closing of the mills and factories in Belfast, did not deal with this question purely from the point of view of these mill-workers, which of course was the vital point of view of the right hon. and learned Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) and myself, but he dealt with it broadly. If it is a good thing —and who can question it—for the sake of a great national emergency in which human life and comfort are involved, to try and face this difficulty of unemployment should the people become unemployed from 8th November, how much more important is it to deal with the unemployment of those who were unemployed for perhaps weeks and months before 8th November, and before this Bill came into operation? As one of those who has felt this question deeply, not only from the point of view of Belfast, but from the point of view of the whole of the three kingdoms, I am very glad that, at all events, this great defect in the scheme for the alleviation of the horrors of unemployment proposed by the right hon. Gentleman is to be corrected in the Bill and that the Bill will have universal application.
I come to the question of unemployment in the other parts of Ireland. Outside Dublin there ought to be no unemployment in Ireland. But to-day every town in Ireland has its number of unemployed. Can anything be done—and perhaps the Prime Minister will be able, when he comes to reply to the general discussion, to say—can anything be done in connection with this scheme for the solution of the unemployment problem by utilising the fund, of which Ireland will, I suppose, get her pro rata share, in undoing the destructive work in which the military have been engaged in burning down places of business, burning property, and scattering the people, who are now unemployed? There is the city of Cork with its business places in ruins and thousands of people consequently out of work. There is Balbriggan. The Chief Secretary admitted that the Forces of the Crown wantonly burnt down the hosiery factory there. This, I understand, employed between 400 and 500 people, all of whom are out of employment. These people write to me day after day to know what can be done for them. I shall be glad if the Minister for Labour or the Prime Minister can say whether there is any redress.
In Fermoy, Mallow, Tralee, Thurles, Nenagh, Athlone, and Limerick City—I could recite the same tragic story in respect to all of them in the destruction of life and property. Then we have the destruction and ruin of these great industrial institutions which provided the few opportunities of our artisan classes in the southern part of Ireland, where the industrial activity is not pronounced, and where commerce is not so great, as in the North of Ireland. There are the creameries. I do not intend to go into this matter, but they provided a livelihood for thousands. A large number of these creameries have been wilfully destroyed and thousands of workers deprived of their living. Is there any provision to be made for them?
When we come to deal with the question of the ex-soldiers I ask hon. Members to remember that Ireland played her part in the great War, for upwards of 60,000 Irish soldiers made the supreme sacrifice on the fields of France and the plains of Flanders. Most people in this country imagine that Ireland took no part in. the War. As a matter of fact Ireland took a great part in the War. Irish soldiers played an enthusiastic part in the earlier stages of the War.' Any military Members of this House know that wherever they had Irish military material at their disposal it was fashioned in an heroic mould, with splendid courage, a great fighting spirit, a skill and dash, and a military power unequalled in valour and courage in any of the races. There are large numbers of these returned soldiers out of work. I suppose they will come under whatever plans the right hon. Gentleman proposes in his scheme. Then I should like to ask—I am sorry to keep the House, because I know hon. Members on the Labour benches are most anxious to speak—but I have taken a great interest in the question of unemployment not only from the Irish point of view, but from the humane point of view, and I have felt it my duty to intervene—I want to know from the right hon. Gentleman who said, I think, that a committee is to be set up in this country to deal with this fund—
Of £3,000,000.
I want to know what you propose to do in regard to Ireland.
I have answered that question.
No, the right hon. Gentleman has not. What he did say in response to a question by the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) was that this scheme would apply to Ireland.
Yes.
I want to know what is the machinery by which this new scheme is to be carried out in Ireland? I do not know whether or not the right hon. Gentleman has had time to give to the consideration of that matter. When he comes to carry out the policy adumbrated in his speech, I trust he will give consideration to the question of machinery and to administration in Ireland, and that he will introduce the human element into the administration. Hon. Members always speak about the lack of responsibility in Ireland, and her incapacity for getting people to deal with matters—health, housing or unemployment. But the last thing you ever think of is consulting the representatives of the people. You send them over to some ancient musty bureaucratic office in Dublin that ought to have ended its function fifty years ago. You send to the old rusty machine to fashion out whatever local schemes you propose to carry out in relation to all these philanthropic, social, humane, economic and industrial causes.
I hope, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman will make some departure from that mental attitude on the part of the Government, and will endeavour to secure the largest amount of representative opinion and humane sympathy that can be secured. In conclusion, let me say that this problem has not been dealt with a moment too soon. It is, in my judgment, the biggest of all problems that confront this country, and indeed the world. I am not sufficiently competent to say whether this is or is not the best thing that can be done; but I have no doubt the right hon. Gentleman has made a real and earnest attempt to solve the problem for immediate purposes. I am quite sure that he has done the very best he can with the means at his disposal to institute the scheme presented to the House. The unemployment allowance of 15s. a week for a man and 12s. 6d. for the woman will be something, but it is totally inadequate. It ought to have been at least double that sum. To give a man 15s. and a woman 12s. 6d.—
It is 12s.
It is far less than I was giving the Government credit for. I was giving them an advantage in my argument, but the amount is totally inadequate. It would have been better, when you are only dealing with an eight-weeks' scheme, to double it for that eight weeks and give the people at this Christmas time, time of peace and goodwill to men, the means of bringing some warmth to the cold hearthstone of the wounded soldiers of our industrial system. It would have been better to have made this great sacrifice. You have spent your money upon foolish schemes and unproductive wars and other things, and surely you ought to have made this financial sacrifice for something better than a war in Ireland, namely, a war upon privation, a war upon sorrow and misery. These are the things humane men should war against. You never use public money for a holier cause than when you use it for the purpose of bringing the glow of warmth to the hearts and the homes of those who have been the main-stay of your power, who have defended you in battle, and who are the source of your strength in times of peace.
Those who have listened to this Debate cannot but have been impressed both with its hopeful and its helpful character. I have heard many Debates during the last 18 or 19 years on this problem of unemployment, but I think I can safely say that I never heard a Debate on this question so well maintained or influenced by the proper spirit as the Debate to-day. I listened, as I think most hon. Members listened, with considerable interest to the speech of the hon. Member for South Croydon (Sir A. Smith). I do not think I should be exaggerating if I said that throughout all the Debates that I have listened to on this question, I think I never heard a finer speech than that, which I think even the Members of the Government will admit was delivered in the best spirit and was full of very practical and constructive proposals.
I have not risen in order to continue the Debate so far as the immediate proposals of the Government for dealing with this question are concerned. I am content to leave that position where the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) left it when he followed the speech of the Minister of Labour earlier in to-day's discussion. If I have one criticism to offer on the Debate it is this. I think we have concentrated much too closely on the temporary proposals for alleviating the pressure of the immediate crisis, and have not dwelt sufficiently on the more permanent aspects of the unemployed problem. I do not know how it is, but this Debate has reminded me, as several other Debates have, that most Governments, in fact, I think all Governments that have been in power during the years I have been a Member of this House, make the unfortunate mistake of leaving over the proper consideration of the problem of unemployment until we are faced with a great army of unemployed. I remember the Debates we had in the Parliament that ceased to be in 1905. I went through the Debates on the Bill that was passed in an emergency not unlike this by what was known as the Balfour Government. I remember the Debates in the Parliament that came into being at the end of 1905 under the leadership of the late Sir Henry Campbell Bannerman, and in both those cases we waited unfortunately, or at any rate the Government waited unfortunately, until the pressure of the unemployed began to make itself felt, and then it might safely be said that the proposals produced were somewhat akin to what is described as panic proposals or panic legislation.
We on these benches do not share the blame or responsibility for not having had this problem dealt with on more permanent lines. During this present Session we took the responsibility of introducing a Bill " to make provision for the prevention of unemployment, to provide for the proper treatment of unemployed persons, and for other purposes connected therewith." Here are a few of the proposals of which I may be permitted to remind the House: Transfer of powers to Minister of Labour as to the unemployed; Minister of Labour to prevent unemployment as far as practicable; regularisation of national demand for labour; provision of employment under the Development and Road Improvement Fund Act; compulsory Order to use Employment Exchanges; transfer ,of the powers of the Board of Trade and Home Office as to the conditions of employment; transfer of powers of emigration and immigration and the training of unemployed persons; and provision for dependants of unemployed persons. We should have thought that some of those proposals would already have been put into operation. Without having gone into the question since this Debate was opened, I should say none of these provisions have been put into operation, and certainly what I considered the fundamental proposals of this Bill have not been put into operation. It seems to me that, if this Debate closes at the end of this sitting with nothing having been done except the House having had to listen to most interesting speeches, some of them really profitable in their suggestion, but only so far as the temporary aspect, as against the permanent aspect, is concerned, it will be, I should think, a disappointment.
Therefore I want to make a suggestion to the Prime Minister, who I understand is going to follow me in this Debate. My suggestion is, that a special Commission should be appointed immediately to investigate the whole problem of unemployment in the widest sense. I use the words "widest sense," having regard to the speech made from these Benches earlier in the Debate by the hon. and learned Member for South Croydon (Sir A. Smith). I was very much struck by one part of his speech, that part in which he dealt very forcibly on the effect of the Excess Profits Duty in its restrictive influence in connection with the industry of the country. It is well known that we on the Labour Benches supported in the first instance the imposition of that duty, and we supported the continuation of it, but when we have a statement made by the hon. and learned Member, with such experience in connection with industry, and made with such a spirit of fairness, as everybody who listened to his speech must admit, we must be open-minded to the extent at least that we are willing to have an inquiry into the widest aspect of this question of unemployment. If the employing classes can show, as the hon. and learned Member pointed out, that this is so restricting the development of industry at this stage, that it is a powerful factor in the creation of unemployment, then we, at any rate, are prepared to go into the question and, if things be as they are suggested, to see if some other substitute for this tax can be provided. But if this suggestion is to be accepted, I think we ought to go the length of saying: "With instructions to report within a specified limited time." We have memories, some of us, of the Commission on the Poor Law. It did not go on for months; it went on for years; in fact, it seemed to be never-ending. "We do not want such an inquiry as that. It would not be for the benefit of this House or for the benefit of the nation if unemployment, growing as it has been in numbers so vast during the past few weeks, were allowed to continue while the inquiry dragged on through all the months of next year. Therefore, if the Government are prepared to sympathetically consider the proposal, I do urge that they should put in some restriction in the nature of a time limit on the inquiry. We also suggest that they should report upon any practical proposals cal- culated to secure the stabilisation of employment. No truer word was said earlier in the day than that the men unemployed do not want unemployment donation, neither from the Government nor from the trade unions. They want work. We ought to do everything in our power to stabilise what employment the country has, and if it were the right moment I would be prepared to put forward, as I have put forward before, suggestions that were put forward fairly fully in the Report of the Government's own Industrial Conference early last year. We ask, therefore, that they should report on proposals calculated to secure the stabilisation of employment, providing as far as possible regular employment for all workers. I make the suggestion to the Government in the hope that they are prepared to give it their sympathetic consideration, and before the Debate closes I hope they will be in a position to intimate to the House that they are prepared to accept it.
I agree with my right hon. Friend who has just sat down that this has been in many respects one of the most remarkable Debates we have had on this great social problem. During the time I have been in this House I have listened to many Debates dealing with unemployment, and I have seen efforts made by Governments, not merely supported by the House of Commons, but stimulated by the House of Commons and. by people outside, to try at any rate to alleviate the inevitable distress which always falls upon a large section of the community who are not deserving of it. Unemployment is not a punishment which falls upon people who have done anything to merit the sufferings which it causes. It is suffering that seems to me inseparable from the trading activities of the world. Up to the present no country has been able to stabilise trade to such an extent as to avoid these cycles. There have been remedies of various characters tried by many Governments. Some have tried Free Trade and some have tried Tariffs, but somehow or other this is an evil that seems to leap over every plan and every scheme that Governments seek to lay down in order to avert it. Countries with different fiscal systems, countries with different organisations, countries with different outlooks upon the activities of the State, all seem to suffer alike from this curse of unemployment. Whether it can ever be averted I would not like to predict. It is like one of those diseases that no scientist up to the present has been able to get at the root of and apply a specific remedy. At the moment there is great unemployment in many countries throughout the world.
The question has been treated rather as if it were something attributable to causes which are confined to Great Britain. That is not the case. Unemployment is worse in other countries than it is here. Take two countries which are absolutely different in their conditions—Germany and the United States of America. In Germany, crushed in a great defeat, overwhelmed by disaster— as you would expect you get unemployment. According to the report we have received from our Ambassador, the unemployment there in the month of October was an unemployment represented by 1,000,000. Out of that 1,000,000 only 450,000 were covered by any sort of provision at all to keep those out of work and their families from starvation. There were 550,000 for whom there was no provision at all. Take the United States of America. In the textile industries alone I find there are 600,000 out of work. In a single industry 600,000 out of work.
What would be the percentage?
The percentage would be very much higher than over here. In fact, there is no comparison, even if you take the percentage. The same thing applies to the metal trades. The unemployment reaches prodigious figures, as everything does in the United States of America once it begins! There is in every country in the world, with the possible exception of France, great unemployment. The reason why it is not so in France is because there they have got a great devastated area which is being restored at enormous expense. I believe the sum voted this year for the restoration of the devastated area amounted to 15,000,000,000 francs. That means Government employment on a gigantic scale, the money being borrowed at great expense. The French losses were much more terrible than even ours. I would point out that the number of those who are employable in this country have gone up in spite of the War, while in France they have gone down. There is therefore a scarcity of labour in France, and it is due to causes which are very disastrous to any community. One is the call for labour in the devasted territory and the other the gigantic loss in population —the increase in which is not comparable with what it is in this country. With the exception of France, every country in the world is suffering from unemployment at the present moment, and with that exception unemployment is better in this country, even in percentages, than in any country in the world.
There is another fact which I think it is necessary to bring to the notice of the House when there is despondency on account of the prospect of unemployment. Unemployment to-day is not nearly as bad as it was during the period of unemployment which visited this country in 1908–9. I remember the provisions that were then made. I was, I think, Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time. Then the unemployment, I think, ran up to 6 or 7 per cent. Now it is 3, 4 or 5 per cent. My right hon. Friend reminds me that in the former period at one time it rose to 12 per cent. That was a very bad period indeed. When one looks at the figures of unemployed running up to 500,000, or even 600,000, it is a very terrible fact that during these times of rejoicing, when everybody is looking forward to happiness and plenty, there should be 600,000 people, and perhaps 500,000 families, plunged into despair because they cannot find work to enable them to provide for themselves. That is a very sad fact. At the same time do not let it, terrible as it is, blind us to the comparison between the present period of unemployment and that very much worse period through which we have passed in recent years. These are the facts we have to bear in mind when considering this problem. My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon (Sir Allan Smith) delivered a very able and suggestive speech, and I congratulate myself upon my luck in being present to hear it. He does not like my right hon. Friend the Minister for Labour. He attacked him very fiercely. As I happen to know they had a little disagreement a short time ago, and my hon. Friend fought it with all the stubbornness of the race to which he belongs, while on the other hand my right hon. Friend fought his case with all the mastery of the gallant race to which he belongs.
What about the Welsh?
They are a very meek people! My hon. Friend apparently has not quite forgotten that little disagreement. However, he made some very valuable suggestions, although I must say he was not altogether fair to my right hon. Friend the Minister for Labour. I know very well that my right hon. Friend has been worrying about this unemployment for months. He has been working hard at it. I have never seen a Minister work so hard in bringing a problem before the Cabinet, working on it, considering it, consulting everybody possible. He warned us time and again about the coming unemployment, and if provision has not been made—and I say it has been in so far as the Government could do it—if it has not been made he certainly is not to blame. There never was a Cabinet where he did not insist on bringing forward this problem of unemployment, and he did so in the gravest possible terms. The result was that at the very time when everybody was preparing for a well-deserved holiday, a Committee of the Cabinet was appointed. Although at the time employment was fairly good, my right hon. Friend foresaw there was going to be very bad unemployment, and he urged us, notwithstanding the fact we were separating for our holidays, to appoint a Committee to go into the matter. We did so. I do not think it is a good thing as a rule to give the names of Cabinet Committees. It is undesirable, but inasmuch as there seems to be a desire to know the constitution of this Committee, I will give the names to the House of Commons. Unemployment is a question with which other Departments are concerned as well as the Ministry of Labour. The Board of Trade is concerned in it, the Exchequer is concerned, the Ministry of Health in concerned, so too is the Ministry of Transport. Therefore, the Committee was composed of the President of the Board of Trade, the Minister of Labour, my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary, representing the Treasury, the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Health, as well as the Minister without Portfolio. As there were so many Departments concerned, so many interests to be reconciled, we thought the Minister without. Portfolio should be put into the chair. It was a fully representative body which gathered all the various interests involved together for the consideration of the problem, and during the holidays, they were sitting and studying it. When the House of Commons met again a plan was placed before it, not for dealing exhaustively with the problem of unemployment—I do not claim that; I agree with all that has been said that these are only palliatives, only something to meet; the immediate trouble and to alleviate the immediate distress. Still I claim it was something more than that. Never has any Government dealing with this problem invited the House of Commons to do as much as the present Government, have done in respect of unemployment which, after all, is only about half as bad; as was the unemployment in the way of; distress in the period to which I have already referred.
The roads, owing to the War, have not been repaired, and in many parts of the country they have fallen into considerable-disrepair. The grant of the Road Board had been taken away. Arrears are being made up, and, at the present time, at considerable number of people are engaged upon the abnormal task of repairing war damage upon roads. That is providing employment. In addition to that, a considerable sum of money has been' allocated for the purpose of arterial roads, which are very necessary. It was a project that we had had in view for a good many years before this Government came into existence. It was one of the schemes which the Government of my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley were considering. This is the first time that it has been put into, operation, but it was projected, I remember, in 1909, when I was Chancellor of the Exchequer. The local authorities have been urged to press forward essential work—sewers, waterworks, and works of that character, which are-essential to the health and life of the community. An effort is being made to anticipate work which might have been put off, perhaps, until next year, and to-do it this year, in order to provide employment. That is not merely useful work, such as the Noble Lord, the Member for Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil) referred to, but valuable work. Again, we have done our best to press forward with housing. The limitation there is labour; we are short of workmen. We have done our best to secure the admission into the building trade of a considerable number of men to make up the deficiency in that trade. There are now something like 60,000 fewer skilled men in it than there were at the beginning of the War, and there was practically no building for about five or six years. Indeed, even before that, building was in arrear, and now at least 500,000 houses are needed to supply the legitimate demands for housing in this country. The Labour party, at the last Election, put it at 1,000,000 but I think that that was an over-statement. I think, however, that 500,000 is a very fair figure.—[AN .HON. MEMBER: " Not if you remove the slums."]—I agree. In that case I have no doubt at all that the figure would be considerably increased, and that really strengthens my case. Let us assume that the Labour party is correct, and that there is a demand for 1,000,000 houses in this country. You cannot build at the rate of more than 100,000 to 150,000 in a year. I do not believe that more than 100,000 have ever been built in the past in any one year; so that, according to the figure of the Labour party, there is work in the building industry for ten years in building houses alone.
More, if you allow for the increase in population.
Considerably more; that is quite true. Where is the fear of unemployment under those conditions? If the Labour party are right, and there are arrears amounting to 1,000,000 houses to make up, together with, as my hon. and gallant Friend points out, provision for the normal increase of population, that means that there is work for 10 or 12 years to come in making up those arrears. Under these circumstances, I cannot help thinking that the trade unions are taking up an attitude which is unjustifiable and selfish, and which, when you take into account the fact that there are some 500,000 people in this country out of work and faced with the prospect of dire distress—250,000 of them having risked their lives for their country—is not far short of cruel. We have done our best to meet them. Complaint has been made that time has been spent. I quite agree; but why has time been spent? It has been spent in a real anxiety to try and get agreement. My right hon. Friend admitted that a good many different proposals had been put forward. Proposals have been put forward one after another. At the request of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, when he was Minister of Labour, I went to the leaders of the trade unions and made an appeal to them. That was last year. In spite, however, of every appeal, we somehow or other have not been able to produce any plan which was acceptable to them, and which would enable them to permit ex-service men to assist in building houses for which the working classes themselves are clamouring. We are now putting forward this scheme. I am not going to pretend that it is a perfect scheme. It is not our original scheme, but one scheme after another has been rejected or not worked. It is said that in this scheme we are, perhaps, offering too much.
You cannot offer too much. We ought to take up that challenge.
I do not quite know what my hon. Friend means. What I mean is this. I think it is better, even at some risk and expense, that an arrangement should be made which will induce those who are engaged in the building trade to look with favour upon the new men coming in. I think that in the long run we shall save money by that, and that they will work with better will. We have consulted practical men. I was present at one or two of those consultations myself, and it was felt, by employers as well as employed, that it was better even to make some sacrifice if an agreement could be reached. Employers have not quite the same interest in the matter as the community. My hon. Friend seems to think that all these problems are problems between employer and employed, but he is really quite wrong. Both the employers and the employed have quite as much as they can do in the building trade, and the most profitable part of that trade is not the building of cottages. It is repair work, and private work—very often the building of factories, where abnormal figures are given in order to attract labour. It is not, therefore, altogether a problem of employer and em- ployed; those who are most interested at the present moment are the community as a whole. We have therefore felt it incumbent upon us, having regard to the fact the employer is not concerned, to fight this battle. The employer wants a number of willing men who will do the work, whom it will take time to train. What we want is first of all to see houses built, but we are specially concerned to find employment for 50,000 men who in course of time would be able to do this work like skilled workmen and mean-while would be learning their trade.
If the trade unions decline to accept this scheme, we shall have to fall back upon other methods. It is not for me, at the present time, to specify what those are, but it will be a very unfortunate thing if the result of this should be to increase unemployment instead of to diminish it. We are anxious to meet all the legitimate aspirations of those who are engaged in the building trade. We realise that unemployment has been heavier in their trade than probably in any other and that the memory of those very bad days has sunk very deep into their apprehension. We are perfectly prepared to do everything in our power to give them reasonable security, but they must take some of the risks of the country they live in. You cannot say to the building trade, "We are going to guarantee you for all time against every risk of unemployment," where no other trade in the country has been guaranteed. We are prepared to help them in a scheme which will minimise the risks, but to say that the State is going to incur the obligation for all time to guarantee them in a special way which is not accorded to any other trade in the country is to ask a privilege for their own section which is not accorded to any other class of workmen. I therefore sincerely hope that the workmen will no to the proposals we have made—proposals of a character which some hon. Members on this side think are too generous and put too great a burden upon the community. As we have gone to that extent in order to meet them, I really trust they will meet us in the same spirit and stand no longer in the way of finding employment for 50,000 ex-service men who have deserved so well of their country.
10.0 P.M.
I come to the last point made by my right hon. Friend and others, that all these proposals we put forward are only in the nature of palliatives. You cannot turn the 550,000 men who are out of work on to making and repairing roads, or even to building houses, and I fully realise that after we have exhausted every project which we can reasonably ask the House of Commons to sanction there will be a very appalling margin, which may very well be a growing one. I think that is a problem which we ought, not merely Government, not merely as a House of Commons, but as a great trading and industrial community, to take into account. These periods of unemployment are recurring. I have seen dangerous outbreaks in previous ones. I think they are becoming increasingly a peril to the community each successive time. There is a good deal to be said about the difference in the character of the unemployment this time comparing it with previous ones, and I think this is a problem which is a peril to the stability of the State and of society, and that a real effort ought to be made to solve it. Many suggestions have been made, and from that point of view there is no doubt this Debate has been of value. This present period of unemployment is undoubtedly due to the fact that the War has impoverished the world. Very striking figures were put to me by the hon. Gentleman (Sir A. Benn) yesterday. Questions were asked as to what the War has cost. I have been reckoning up in a rough way, and I have almost come to the same sort of conclusion that he has. He said that the War had directly cost the world £50,000,000,000. He put the indirect cost at £67,000,000,000. That I am not sure of. I should not have put it quite so high as that. The destruction of property I put at about £10,000,000,000, but I daresay it was higher. I think that what the hon. Gentleman probably did was to add up the loss in trade and business by the diversion of scores of millions of people from productive work on to work of destruction. During that period they were not creating work. Anyhow, £50,000,000,000 and £10,000,000,000 at least in the destruction of property—that is £60,000,000,000, and there were 30,000,000 casualties. There are 9,000,000 dead. It was reckoned by the Supreme Council at 10,000,000 dead and perhaps 15,000,000 crippled and a pure burden upon the community.
How can anyone expect after that terrible destruction that trade should be prosperous two years afterwards? Our customers are insolvent. Europe used to buy £200,000,000 worth of goods from this country. At present values that would be £500,000,000 to £600,000,000 worth of goods which we used to sell to Europe. It is a small proportion of that that we are selling now. Europe cannot buy. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Do let me develop my argument. I do not mention this question in order to shirk it. Europe cannot buy. She is bankrupt. She can hardly feed herself. It is no use saying that it is due to the indemnities; she is not paying those. She cannot pay her own way. They are creating money by the thousand million, just in order to get along. They cannot buy food. How can they buy goods from us? As I once put it, we are a prosperous shop, in a prosperous community, which suddenly finds that its neighbours have become bankrupt. The consequence is that the shop is suffering, that business is suffering, and until Europe starts again, until Europe makes headway, until Europe is able to buy, the prospects will remain very serious. [HON. MEMBERS: " Russia! "] The question of Russia will come on to-morrow, and I do not want to anticipate that discussion, which, if I once begin it, will lead us away from the question of unemployment, and, perhaps, on to topics even of a less congenial character than unemployment. Undoubtedly Russia is part of the problem. To Russia we used to send £17,000,000 worth of goods, which would be worth £50,000,000 or £60,000,000 at the present rate. Europe has got a virile population, strong and healthy, and it has its skilled workmen. It has its raw material. It will recover, but it would recover more quickly if we could have peace. It is getting peace gradually. There has been a good deal of ferment. Nations which did not do much fighting in the War thought they would do some; but they do not like it, and we are likely to get a little more peace. That is coming gradually.
We want more than that. Suggestions have been put to me by hon. Friends below the Gangway as to the establishment of credit systems for the purpose of starting trade with Europe. I am not going to express an opinion upon that, because it is a business proposition, and unless it is a business proposition it is no use attempting it. There are very able business men in this country who think that it is a sound business proposition. We had a very remarkable interview, my right hon. Friend and I, with some leading business men in this country on this subject. They were only a small number of representative men— bankers, manufacturers, and men who represented various aspects of business— and we talked over the whole situation. There were, at least, two or three of them, very able men, men of exceptional ability, who were of opinion that it was possible to start some sort of credit insurance system that would enable us to-do business with Central Europe and to give Central Europe time to pay. I am not going to say at the present moment whether that is feasible. If it is, it is undoubtedly a very hopeful project. It would be more helpful than any scheme for road making that we could possibly have, because it would start business again. Take the textile industry. Short time is being worked, especially in the woollen trade. [HON. MEMBERS: " Cotton trade! "] The position is bad in the cotton trade; but I think it is worse in some of the woollen districts. At any rate, they are both pretty bad. It is very much better to turn those men to make wool and cotton than to make roads. If a scheme of the kind that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade is now considering, in conjunction with these very able business men, who put the project forward, could be evolved, it would be a much more helpful method of dealing with the problem of unemployment than any palliative one could possibly suggest.
There are other projects which we are considering. With regard to the large stores of wool which we have in this country, we are considering whether it is possible to sell these stores of wool to Central Europe upon a credit system which would enable trade to begin again, to begin a natural interchange of commodities and labour between countries, and to buy and sell as we did before the War. Until you restore healthy conditions in Europe and in the world, we shall have an appalling problem of unemployment in this country which will be beyond grappling with. Therefore, it is essential that business and trade should begin again. We are applying our minds to that, fully realising that at best the things which we suggest are mere palliatives. There are many things of that kind to consider. One phase of employment in this country is one that causes anxiety. In spite of the great losses of the War we have one million more men and women employed in this country than in 1914. [HON. MEMBERS: "More!"] Hon. Members say more. At least we have one million more employed, and it is a serious matter. Here we have our customers who are unable to give orders. It is not merely Europe. China is suffering because silver has gone down. India is suffering because the monsoon has been a comparative failure, or at least it has not been a success. Therefore, throughout the world there is a failure on the part of our customers, we are not getting the necessary orders, and all the time we have one million more men and women for whom to provide work.
I do not like to say it, but I think we shall have to face the problem of emigration. It is an unpleasant suggestion, but I mean emigration within the Empire. There was one thing that the War proved, and that was that the men who leave us are not lost to us. The most remarkable fact was that they were there when we wanted them. They were the first men to come to our assistance, first from Canada, first from Australia, and so on. I met two as fine Australian soldiers during the War as one could wish to meet, and they were Welshmen who came to see me at Downing Street. I found that they had come from my own village. That applies to everybody. Almost without exception these young fellows who went out to our Dominions during the last few years enlisted, and were the first to enlist, when the War came. Therefore, when we talk about emigration we are really not sending these virile young men away and losing their strength. Quite the reverse. They went there, and they brought a partner back to fight with them. They are a strength to the Empire, whether they are in Canada, Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland, Australia, or New Zealand. There is a greater sense of comradeship, a greater feeling that we are one people, one country. Spread them over the Empire and you strengthen not merely the Empire, but the old country as well. I should like to see a considered scheme, considered in conjunction with the Dominions, for finding employment for men for whom I am afraid it would be difficult for us to find permanent employment in this country for some time to come, certainly until the world is restored to something like normal conditions. That is one of the problems which I hope to see discussed when we have a meeting of Imperial Premiers in the month of May in this country. These are the lines on which I should like to see the problem considered.
There was a suggestion which fell from my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Sir A. Smith), a very sensible one, and many times I have thought that that was the only method by which you can really help to solve the problem of unemployment in this or any other country. Even if you have emigration, even if you recreate credits, even if you put your customers in a position to give you orders, I am afraid you will always have the problem of unemployment. You will always have these fluctuations exactly as you have in the weather. You will have good weather, and you will hare bad. You cannot control industry to such an extent as to make it absolutely stable. My right hon. Friend talks about the stabilisation of industry. He might as well talk about stabilising the sea. It will always rock, and there will be bad weather as well as good weather. You cannot stabilise a living thing. You can stabilise something which is inanimate, but something which has life in it you cannot stabilise—individuals or States or even parties. Therefore we must face the possibility of having periods of good and bad employment, and what we have got to do is to see that a period of bad employment is not a period of distress. It is just like certain countries where they have got a winter which throws men out of employment. I know that when you meet a Canadian he is very angry when you refer to the hard winter. They say that in Canada that is the most cheerful time of the year. That is the period of relaxation, of leisure, when you recruit your energies, and the period of joy and life. There will be winter and spring and summer wherever you go, and there will be a variation in industry as well as in anything else. You will have your winter, and the great thing is to have a Canadian winter when it comes.
When the Canadian winter comes, see that it is not a winter in which you throw honest men, who have done their best and served their country each in his own way, and their families into the cold to starve and famish. It is unworthy of a great country, unworthy of a great civilisation in any land. Something should be done in each industry to remove the possibility of wretchedness as an inevitable consequences of something that you cannot prevent. The suggestion made is valuable—that is that each trade should, in so far as it can, try to solve its own problem. He does not want the State to help. The State never wants to help if can possibly avoid it, because whenever it does it gets into trouble. Believe me, there is nothing a Minister would like better than not to work hard and not to be criticised, and if any one says to him, " Do nothing," it is something which appeals to his very heart If industry says, " Leave us alone; we will solve our own problem of unemployment," the State will be content but it will probably be found that when a certain point is reached the State has to help over the stile. If that happens I will do my best to forget his speech. At any rate, the hon. Member is quite right in his main idea that the industries ought to come together. The sacrifice is unequal. Unemployment comes to the employer and to the employed, but the sacrifices are not equal. I am certain that in order to achieve the measure of goodwill, which is the only thing that will restore vigour and power to industry, it is desirable that employer and employed should come together to try to solve the darkest and most difficult problem, and if my hon. Friend has a scheme of that kind let me assure him that we will do all we can either to help or not to help, according to whichever is the better in the conditions.
The suggestion has been made that we should have a Commission. I think it is desirable that this problem should be investigated in a more searching way than is possible in a Debate in the House of Commons, but I am not sure that the appointment of a Commission is the best way of doing it. I have seen so many Commissions, and I have not seen much, very much, come of them. It is just as if you put on your spectacles in order to have a sleep, with a great appearance of putting them on in order to look into a subject. What you really mean is to have a nap. There is a great deal of that in the appointment of Commissions. You put the spectacles on most elaborately and say, "I mean to search it and probe it thoroughly," but the subject is generally put to sleep. I do not think that is the best way. The idea of the Industrial Conference was a good one. It was a new method of investigation. The Conference was not a complete success, but it was a very considerable success. Unemployment insurance came out of it. I remember attending that Conference, and there I found the leaders of the workmen and the leaders of the employers sitting down together trying to solve the problem. The unemployment insurance scheme, which is the best in the whole world, was the result of that Conference. I think that free and informal conferences of that kind, not brought forward to examine a particular matter, in discussion amongst men representing varied views and interests, to try to help the State and the community to arrive at a conclusion, would be the best way of dealing with the question. I will promise my right hon. Friend that I will consider not merely his suggestion, but that my colleagues and myself will consider whether there is not some way by which the various valuable suggestions which have been put forward in the course of this discussion, and many others received from different quarters, can be sifted and examined with the idea of the community as a whole doing its best to solve this great problem. I should not be surprised if this country, which has taken the lead in solving many dark problems, which has been the great pioneer of liberty throughout the world, and which is looked to now with confidence for the way in which it is solving many difficulties, were the first to show the example of getting over this difficult problem.
The eloquent speeches delivered in the course of this Debate reflect the greatest credit on this House, and more so, I think, than any I have listened to for years. The Noble Lord (Lord H. Cecil) in connection with the payment of labourers for wet time, asked what charge for that would fall on the Exchequer? The answer is, no charge, and that the cost of the wet time would be chargeable to the work. It is only fair to the Bricklayers' Union to point that wet time, in my opinion, is not justifiable. A bricklayer takes, say, two hours to get to his work in the morning, and when he arrives it starts to rain, and he has to go back. Is it fair to ask men to do that for nothing 1 There is some controversy over it, but I suggest if the Minister of Health had settled that point when it was brought up some time ago, we should have had better progress in housing. We have heard that we are facing a bad winter and that we are going to have much more unemployment. I have spent a considerable time discussing this problem with men who are in a position to judge the future, and I wish to sound a further note of warning, and that is this, that we have not yet touched the bottom by miles, and the next year will require all the ability, determination and foresight of the Government, with continual sittings of the Cabinet Committee, to overcome the unemployment problems which will face us, not only in the winter, but during the coming spring, summer, and autumn. A full bad year faces us, and the sooner we recognise it the better, and most hon. Members who have known me since I have been in this House will realise that if anything I am an optimist and not a pessimist, but I feel sure that if the Government wish in future to avoid the criticism that they have started late in the day in dealing with these troubles and have not taken preventative measures, they will take time by the forelock and try to devise means by which to meet this terrible position beforehand.
I would respectfully ask the Prime Minister to listen to this, because part of his speech touched me to the quick. I am convinced, in regard to the Government's efforts with the trade unions, whether they are right or wrong, that the money would be better spent in following up the later suggestions in the right hon. Gentleman's speech in regard to emigration overseas. I do not think he meant it in that way, but he did say that he regretted that he thought it might be necessary. To my mind, the man who goes overseas to settle in one or other of the Dominions or Crown Colonies does the best day's work that he ever did. I left in my early youth, and never shall I regret the day that I went overseas, and I lived 17 years, the best of my life, overseas. In the great unemployment period during which I was a Member of this House, in 1908–09, so critical was it in the Midlands that, with a view to demonstrating what municipal effort might do, we started with the Imperial League, and we sent over 100 of the poorest families to Canada at our own expense, without seeking outside help. I myself went over to Canada and saw various friends of mine over there, and those families were put on the land. Many times since I have been over there, and have seen those happy and prosperous people. In one case there was a family with nothing but two chairs and a table, with seven children and the husband and wife, all starving, and I went in to see if I could help them. He said, "I don't want your charity; I want work." I said, "I will find you work; you shall go to. Canada, and I will guarantee to find you work there. Your children are bootless, without clothes, and shivering; will you go?" He said, "I will go, but no charity; I will pay you back every shilling you lend me."I saw that man nine months afterwards, in a beautiful house in Vancouver, with his own garden and bathroom. His children rushed towards me and nearly knocked me over to greet me, well booted, well clothed, happy, and prosperous. That man was a known drunkard here, but in Canada he is one of the most prominent and leading citizens in that part of the world. That is only to illustrate what can be done.
I put a question to the Under-Secretary for the Colonies the other day. My contention is that men who have served overseas become restless and never settle down in the same spirit that they did before, and they make the best citizens for overseas. I believe that if the Government were to prepare a scheme and take immediate steps, they could in the end save money to the State, if the scheme were well conceived. They could be the means of getting at least 100,000 or 200,000 men and their families to various' parts of the Dominions or the Crown Colonies. When the Prime Minister said to-night that this question was going to be brought up in May, it took away a great deal of the hope which I had entertained. May is five months ahead. What I would earnestly ask the Prime Minister and the Government to do is to get into touch through the Colonial Office with the Dominions. It can do no harm and can cost the State nothing. They could ask the Canadian Government, the Australian Government, and the New Zealand Government—not South Africa— "If we undertake to train men to pass an agricultural test in the simple arts of ploughing, sowing, and reaping, how many-will you absorb? "
The whole thing could be done with three months' training, and could be put in force like you turned out munitions,' as you had to, to save the country. The same thing is wanted now—speed, effort and determination, and in less than two months you could get centres here to train their tens and twenties. The would be ready and willing to do it inside the two months, and the men would be at hand to start ploughing the land in Australia, Canada and New Zealand, and other parts of the Empire possibly, but these three great Dominions in particular. They could start ploughing up the present barren land, and help send to this country the very corn and cereals of which we are in direct need. That, to my mind, would be the greatest Empire building scheme, and it is the psychological moment for it. Moreover, you would be dealing with a serious problem in such a way that you would be getting a permanent relief. We hear to-night that we are spending £40,000,000 on ex-service men. You will have to spend another £40,000,000 on relief. Picture £40,000,000 spent in the manner I have indicated. Co-operate with the Dominion Governments. Ask them how much they want per man. Give them a grant per man of £100 or £200 if you like, so long as they will undertake to provide the land on which you can settle these men. It is the best land scheme for ex-service men you could devise, and I am certain it is a scheme which deserves the attention of this Government. It is not new. I do not know whether the Cabinet Committee have had any details, but I do beg, anyhow, that the Prime Minister will see that inquiries are set on foot to ascertain, by cable, whether the Governments of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand in particular will make suggestions in reference to such a scheme, and say what they propose; and I ask that the Government should get this information by an interchange of cables and make up their minds by ten days, or certainly by the first week in the new year. ' The Government will find that such a scheme will be received with open arms, and it will be an economy in the end. Otherwise you will go on with the expenditure of time and money, and with temporary methods of relief, and all the dangers which face us, and we shall be no " furrader."
I join in the appeal to the Bricklayers' Union that they shall undertake to absorb the 50,000 men who would be lost, I say, in the legitimate demand which exists for bricklayers in the trade of this country. I am perfectly convinced of one thing, knowing bricklayers as I do, and having, in the course of my business, had a lot to do with them, that if the union were to go to every big job in this country and put it to the bricklayers themselves: " How many men will you be willing to absorb in this job?" that they would undertake each one to take a certain number of men without interfering with— a point which was mooted by one hon. Member—the promotion of the bricklayers labourers who are already within the gates. The Prime Minister touched on one other matter—credits. I do myself beg earnestly that the Cabinet will give every consideration to the scheme which is now being carefully considered between them and a committee of Lloyd's. I only want very briefly to tell the House that at this time that I am engaged in some very big overseas work, and it is a question, in the first instance, of shipping about £200,000 worth of goods. I have had to go to Belgium and France for these goods, because I could not get them in this country, and because the ordinary trading facilities did not exist to give the credit which was asked for in connection with these shipments. That is, perhaps, putting it very bluntly, yet, although the exchanges and the currencies of these countries are much more against them than ours, yet their Governments have found means to assist them in their exports, and it is with the Government assistance behind them that these shippers—and I am talking now of what I do know, and what I am engaged in daily—are getting for these countries the markets for goods which a little Government foresight here could have got and ought to have got for us. It is in connection with overseas credits that I consider that in another direction a permanent effort should be made by the Government. We have had in connection with this £28,000,000 voted for overseas credits to rebuild the devastated areas. I believe only £2,500,000 has been given. At least some £14,000,000 or £15,000,000 of that money should be utilised to provide credits at Lloyds or with the existing banking organisations to assist overseas shipping. We should in some way help merchants to feel sure that the Government is behind them, as the French and the Belgian Governments are, with regard to the shipping of goods. In this country the policy of reclamation might receive some attention from the Government. Some time ago a Committee was set up for that purpose, and a careful investigation was made by a very competent engineer at Barking and another place, and there is no doubt that both places would yield a substantial revenue for the money invested in them, but those interested in the development of these undertakings were short of the money with which to make the schemes possible. My suggestion is that the Government should look into these schemes and undertake to help the local and municipal councils by guaranteeing the interest on the principal. This policy would provide work of a productive character, and I earnestly bring that point to the notice of the Government.
I desire, and I am sure every hon. Member desires, to help the Government to relieve the distress which will face unemployment in this country during the winter. I hope they will take the bull by the horns, and instead of increasing taxation by relief measures I should like to see a special tax levied for the next three months for the relief of the unemployed.
The question of unemployment has been touched upon in many of its aspects. During the time I have been a Member of the House I have discovered that we have solved, at any rate, one part of the problem. After listening to the devious and ambiguous phraseology of the lawyers who dominate this House, I have concluded that this House has solved one problem and that is unemployment in the legal profession. I want to ask the Prime Minister whether he cannot see his way to carry out in actual practice the kindly phrases which he has used this evening. The right hon. Gentleman referred to a Canadian winter. It is not a Canadian winter. May we at least have a tolerable winter. The unemployment donation you are paying at the present time does not pay the rent increases the Government have imposed. I would suggest that what needs to be done is to make that unemployment benefit at least something approximating to a tolerable existence at the moment. While no one on this side of the House desires to see any further extension of the building of armaments, but I want to direct the attention of the Ministry of Labour to this fact, that in the Government dockyards there are anchored in the waters dozens of ships whose construction was ordered to be stopped at the Armistice. These ships, I believe, are down for the shipbuilding programme of 1922 and 1923. It seems to me, at a time when there are so many skilled men facing the problem of unemployment, and a lot more in the Government workshops were threatened with short time, that at least this programme, calculated to be spread over a number of years, might at least be brought forward at this time with a view to absorbing some of the great masses of skilled unemployed in the West of England. With regard to the number of skilled unemployed in and around the environs of London, it can be said that if there be a real desire to give employment to these men rather than carry on the period of enforced idleness, then the workshops at Woolwich which are standing empty, the beautiful up-to-date workshops erected during the War, should be utilised. If some form of credit assurance is to be instituted which will give some security in the production of goods for consumption overseas, then we ought to get ahead with it now rather than continue this policy of enforced idleness which means moral degeneration. These skilled mechanics are no good for road work. What the Prime Minister has said about the cotton workers holds good in the case of every worker other than unskilled workers. It is quite certain there is a market for locomotives and such like in Eastern Europe, apart altogether from Russia. You have, for example, Czechoslovakia and other Allies desiring any kind of machinery, agricultural machinery, or even the ordinary machinery of hospitals, and they are unable to buy it because of the rates of exchange. I hope the Minister of Labour will seriously consider this special problem, because those of us who have had to face periods of unemployment know that the working classes do not desire any kind of dole. They would rather be working any time than taking money for enforced idleness, because enforced idleness makes great masses of the people mere degenerates.
I would like to ask the Minister of Labour one question, and it is in regard to the Committee that he is proposing to set up. Will he say if there will be an Irish representative on that Committee, and further if he will have a representative of Irish ex-service men upon that Committee. As he is probably aware, there is a considerable number of ex-service men out of employment in Ireland. In fact, there is a greater proportion of ex-service men out of employment in Ireland than in this country. I know there are not the same means of employment; and we have not your great industries. It is a fact that every Irishman who went into the Army or Navy volunteered to do so. The conditions are not the same in that country as in this with regard to ex-service men, and I do appeal to the Minister of Labour to give an assurance that on this Committee to deal with the expenditure of this £3,000,000, of which -Ireland, I presume, will get her pro rata share, there shall be a representative of Irish ex-service men. I do not want to add anything to what has been said concerning the general state of unemployment. The unemployment problem in Ireland is even more pressing than it is here. Ireland is an agricultural country. During the War there were ample opportunities for employment. Things are not the same now, and both in regard to the disturbed state of the country and the destruction and burning of towns and of various industries, as well as to other causes, unemployment is unfortunately very rife, and I beg the Minister of Labour to take into special consideration, as they deserve, the Irish ex-service men and give them a representative on the Committee.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will pay some attention to the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for the Falls Division as to employing some of those unemployed in Ireland in getting rid of the debris created by the burning of Irish property recently.
We have invited a distinguished representative of ex-servicemen to serve on the Central Committee. The question whether there should be an Irish representative is one I will carefully consider. May I appeal to the House now to come to a decision.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.
Unemployment Insurance (Temporary Provisions Amendment)
I beg to move," That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend Section 44 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920."
11.0 P.M.
I should like to ask whether or not it is intended to take all the stages of this Bill after 11 o'clock at night, the Firs Reading not yet having been passed, and the Bill not being: printed or in the Vote Office? I understand that yesterday two Bills were passed, one coming on after 11 o'clock —a measure dealing with the Courts of Justice. I do not wish to enter any protest against the subject of this particular Bill, although we have not had an opportunity of seeing it, but I do wish to enter an emphatic protest against the way in which the Government are behaving at the present moment. Here we have been sitting during the whole year, with the exception of September and part of August and of October; and yet the Government choose, on the two last days of the Session, to bring forward and carry through all their stages three Bills of which the House and the public can have no conception whatever. That is rendering Parliamentary government a complete farce. I am not the only Member of the House who thinks that; that is the opinion of all other Members except those on the Government Bench, although they do not like to say so. We might just as well go home and allow the Government to bring in any measure at any time and pass it in this way. They cannot plead the excuse of the shortness of the Session, because they have had the whole of the year. In the case of this particular Bill, perhaps, that may not so much apply, but the two Bills passed yesterday could have been introduced long before this, if the Government had chosen to do so. I hope that, when we meet again next year, the House of Commons will venture to have a little courage, and will say to the Government, "We will not be treated in this disrespectful way. If you want to bring in any Bills, you must bring them in in a proper way, and give us an opportunity of discussing them."
I protest, as every other Member of this House who has any regard for Parliamentary procedure would protest, in support of what the right hon Baronet has just said. The fact that we have the deepest sympathy with the problem which has led to the introduction of this Bill makes it none the less an affront to this House that we should be driven like sheep to agree to everything by a crisis which we did not produce, and which, had the criticisms in this House during the past two years been listened to, would never have arisen. If the Government had listened to the criticisms which have come from the Labour Benches, and from those whom the Labour party designate as the capitalist class, they would not have led us into the present impasse. I should like to see every hon. Member walk out of this House as a protest, and allow the Government to pass this Bill through all its stages in their absence. That is the only thing that might bring the Government to a sense of the realities of the situation to-day. Two minutes ago, after a few hours' discussion, the right hon. Gentleman said, " We trust that the House will give a Second Reading to this Bill." Hon. Members are beginning to realise the futility of criticism, and, what is more, the futility of helpful suggestion. Possibly, in one of the stages through which this Bill must pass in the next few minutes, the right hon. Gentleman will give us one instance of a helpful suggestion—and there have been many made from all quarters of the House—which has been adopted by the Government. I know of none. The Government are satisfied in connection with this Bill, as with every Bill that they introduce, that criticism is something which they have to meet in passing, but they pay no more respect to it, and have no more regard for it, than if it did not exist. It is said, and quite truly, that a country gets the Government it deserves. God knows what this country has done to get the Government which it has to-day— —a Government that absolutely laughs in the face of Parliamentary procedure, which rides roughshod over the machine which it has used to bring itself into power, which ignores all the most sacred rules which we who have been in the House a few years have learned to respect. To what state is this form of Parliamentary procedure bringing this House? What conception can new Members who have come to the House for the first time in the last two years have of their responsibility to their electors if they are to learn at such a night-school as this, which is generally carried on till two or three o'clock in the morning, when the most important measures are rushed through without any consideration or discussion. I am in favour of doing everything possible to assist the working classes in the present crisis, to which the Government has driven them. Of course, if they wanted thirty readings, they would get them, but I hope hon. Members will rise in their places and exercise a privilege which is theirs during all the processes of this Bill—Second Reading and Report—we shall not get a Committee. I expect because we have not received the Bill we shall not be able to put down Amendments. Presumably there will be a Third Reading, and I hope Labour Members will realise that the reason of the Bill is to give a newspaper story on which the House can be prorogued, so that the hired assassins of the Government can go about the country and say, " Our last effort before adjourning for Christmas was to say to the Labour party, ' Look what we are doing. Our last thoughts were for you.' "I only wish to God they were not the last thoughts, but the last actions of the Coalition Government.
I think the House has very much reason to complain of the action of the Government in the last days of the Session asking us to take all the stages of this Bill to-night. The Prime Minister said this evening that this subject was well within the compass of the attentions of the Minister of Labour. He has been considering the matter for months before August. It must have been apparent that some such Bill as this was necessary, and I cannot see what the occasion is for the Bill not having been read a First time and circulated at any rate a fortnight ago. I am going to take no step to prevent the Bill becoming law this Session. I would not undertake such a responsibility as that, but the request to take the Bill in all its- stages to-night is not a reasonable one at all. We can at once give a First Beading, then we shall have the Bill in our hands and there is absolutely no Parliamentary reason why the other stages should not be taken to-morrow after the Third Beading of the Appropriation Bill. To rush it through all its stages in 10 or 15 minutes is really asking too much of a wholly subservient majority. I am quite used to being steam-rollered. That is no new experience for me. If the right hon. Gentleman accepts my suggestion, it is very likely that everybody may be friendly and some possible Amendments may be suggested. I have no idea what the Bill is. It is to amend some Section of some Act with respect to a four weeks' contribution. We want some few hours in which to get our breath and to see what it is. If the right hon. Gentleman meets me he will not find the House unwilling to give reasonable opportunity for passing the Bill.
In reply to the right hon. Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury) and the right hon. Member (Sir D. Maclean), I will explain why I desire this Bill in all its stages to-night. On the 8th November an Insurance Act became law, which compelled people to contribute for four weeks while in employment in order to qualify for benefit under the Act. Directly it came into operation it appeared that the qualifying test was too severe, having regard to the present condition of unemployment. The right hon. Member for the Duncairn Division (Sir E. Carson), the hon. Member for the Falls Division (Mr. Devlin) and others called my attention to it, and I immediately took the matter. I explained it at considerable length on the Second Beading of the Consolidated Fund Bill. We have taken Section 44 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920, and we cut out the four weeks' contribution qualification, and amend the Section by putting in a less onerous qualification. There is no charge upon the Exchequer. The accelerated payment will be a charge against the Unemployment Insurance Fund, and it is a charge which it can bear. It will mean that people who would otherwise be ruled out will be entitled to benefit. I had no means of doing this earlier. It is very simple.
Then why not take the remaining stages to-morrow?
There is many a slip between the cup and the lip, especially in politics. I am sure my right hon. Friend would be the last to prevent the passage of the Bill, and I hope he will go to the length of letting me have it to-night. He would be the last man to deprive these people of this relief. Representations were made to me from all parts of the House. The moment they were made, I brought in this little Bill of one Clause, and I hope to get all its stages to-night.
I should have a higher appreciation of the bona fides of the protest of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir F. Banbury) had he started earlier in the Session his protest against this method of procedure. There have been many measures of a hurtful or useless character introduced and passed with the same rapidity, yet there was no violent protest against that method until this proposal was brought forward. The right hon. Gentleman (Dr. Macnamara) made clear in the Debate this evening the real purpose of this proposal in order to meet the urgent claims of those workers. The matter has been too long delayed, and therefore, while joining those who protest against this method of legislation, I appeal to the House to allow this measure to go through without delay.
On Saturday the right hon. Gentleman, when asked when he was going to make an announcement on this subject, said that a Cabinet Committee was sitting to consider the subject. I put the question—" If the Cabinet Committee does not come to a decision before the House rises, will you be able to take action?"—and I understood him to say that he could not do so unless he got an indemnity at a later date from the House of Commons. Therefore I rejoice to know that the Bill is going through at once. The hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Billing) seems to have forgotten the story of the Englishman who allowed himself to be drowned because he had not been introduced to the man who held out a helping hand. I hope that the Bill will be passed without further delay.
The House has every reason to complain of its treatment by the Government in being asked to pass this Bill without seeing it in print. It could have been introduced several days ago, as the matter was extremely urgent, but the way in which the Government has seen fit to deal with Members of this House is in absolute contradiction to the way in which it has dealt with the trade unions outside this House. Week after week, month after month, I have brought up this question of how long the negotiations with the trade unions were to continue. Every month I was told that negotiations had reached a critical stage, and only last Wednesday I was told that the final stage would be reached last Monday so that ex-service men should know before Christmas what is in store for them. To-day I have the first opportunity of drawing attention to the matter. We are told that the decision is postponed till the end of the year. I think the House has grave reason to complain of the dilatoriness of the Government in dealing with the trade unions and the waste of the Government in dealing with the House of Commons. No wonder that the House is losing respect in the eyes of the people when the people see that in the eyes of the Government the House is a thing of little moment, and that at any hour of the day or night a Bill can be forced through before Members have seen it, whereas month after month, and almost year after year, these negotiations can be allowed to drift along between the trade unions and the Government.
After the First Beading, will the House adjourn for ten minutes to allow us to read the text of the Clause?
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Dr. Macnamara, Dr. Addison, and Sir Montague Barlow.
Unemployment Insurance (Temporary Provisions Amendment) Bill,
" to amend Section forty-four of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920," pre- sented accordingly; read the First time; and ordered to be printed. [Bill 278.]
Bill read a second time.
Resolved, That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill.— [Dr. Macnamara.]
Bill accordingly considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment.
I beg to move, " That the Bill be now read the Third time."
The proposal is that a person in any insurable trade under this measure must have had four weeks' employment since the 5th July—any four weeks, not necessarily continuous weeks—or failing that must have had ten weeks' employment for the whole year. Each person has a current health card, and the great bulk of the people would have four stamps on their cards. They present their current health card and that justifies the claim. If they have not that they must get a record for the whole year and have to, show ten weeks for the whole year. That is really not an onerous condition.
I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for clearing that point up.
If I did not intervene this Bill would have gone through all its stages in three minutes, which I think would be a record. I rise as a human protest against the lack of humanity. These Bills are machine made and not with any sense of human feeling or responsibility. There was an opportunity for the number to come down with a really bold comprehensive Bill to deal with unemployment and to get the assistance of the trade unions and if necessary to fight those who would not help in solving the unemployment problem. Instead of that we get a Bill which adds to the doles. The right hon. Gentleman says, " Oh, no," but this Bill will not add one iota to the productivity of the country. The Government, in this matter, have shown the same weakness as in every measure when up against trade unions. The Bill is another indication of lack of grip of the position of unemployment. They think all that is necessary is another little concession for the trade unions and all is well. No hon. Member can possibly leave the House without a sense of the uttefr futility of this proceeding. I appreciate that my speaking now is another evidence of that utter futility. It is a very regrettable thing. We are supposed to be the Mother of Parliaments, a learned council representing all the interests of the nation, cherishing the rights and privileges which we so hardly won against extraordinary opposition in early days, and I say we are being more browbeaten than ever the kings in the early days of our history ever browbeat their subjects. Unfortunately, with one or two exceptions, we are equally docile. The Labour party will support the right hon. Gentleman, but the only satisfaction I can get out of the support of the Labour party in this connection is that they are helping the Government to ride to their fall. Possibly the Labour party have greater vision than other hon. Members of this House, and possibly they see that by aiding the Government in destroying the very procedure which has gained the respect which this House once enjoyed, and by assisting the Government in every proposition they put forward to distribute, without consideration or thought, the taxpayers' money, they are aiding in their downfall. I hope that the vision splendid of the Labour party is a reality. One must not be led aside by a feeling of appreciation of the personal charm of any Minister in this House not to attack their somewhat poisonous political outlook. I asked an hon. Member not long since whether he thought there was a possibility of a General Election in the next six months.
I have already allowed the hon. Member to make several excursions, but I cannot allow him to start on another.
Question, "That the Bill be now read the Third time," put, and agreed to.
Bill read the Third time, and passed.
Housing (Scotland) Bill
Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [20th December] ,
"That the Lords Amendments be now considered ":
Question again proposed.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments considered accordingly:
CLAUSE 1.—(Power to hire dwelling- houses compulsorily for housing of the working classes.53 & 54 Vict., c. 70.)
(1) For the purpose of providing houses, any authority, being a local authority within the meaning of Part III of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890, shall have power to hire compulsorily any house which is suitable, without reconstruction, and has not been in the bonâ-fide occupation of any occupier at any time during a period of at least three months immediately preceding the date on which the local authority give notice of their intention to exercise their powers under this Section:
Provided that—
(a) this Section shall not apply to any house erected after or in the course of erection on the second day of April nineteen hundred and nineteen or to any house acquired for the public service or for the purpose of the statutory duties or powers of a statutory undertaking and reasonably required for those purposes;
(b) the term for which a house may be hired under this Section shall be from the date of the hiring until the twenty-eighth day of May nineteen hundred and twenty-three; and
(c) nothing herein contained shall prevent a local authority hiring compulsorily a house which may be adapted for occupation by more than one family at a reasonable cost having regard to the period of hiring.
(2) For the purposes of this Section a house shall be deemed not to have been in bonâ-fide occupation at any time during the period of three months as aforesaid, if such house has not been continuously inhabited as a dwelling-house for at least one week in the said period of three months.
(3) The provisions set out in the First Schedule to this Act shall have effect with respect to the compulsory hiring of houses under this Section.
Lords Amendment:
Leave out the Clause.
I beg to move, " That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
I shall also move that the Clause be reinserted, with an Amendment which I shall mention in a moment. The Clause is a very valuable Clause if it can be secured without peril to the Bill itself, as I hope it can. So far as I recollect, there was no opposition to the Clause in Scottish Grand Committee, which considered it with great care. Indeed, I can go further and I can say that there were Amendments proposed to the Clause to include within its ambit furnished houses. These Amendments were moved by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bute (Sir A. Hunter-Weston) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ayr (Sir G. Younger), and the Clause is very fully safeguarded so far as the owners of these houses are concerned, because it is provided that they shall be fully heard before any house can be hired compulsorily, and that the relative hardship to the owner of the house shall be compared to the hardship to those who want houses and are unable to get them. I would also point this out to the House, that the owner of a house which is to be taken by the local authority will receive rent, not for two months in the year, which he may receive under ordinary circumstances, but for the whole year. With certain Amendments which I am going to move in the Schedule, I submit to the House that the owner of the particular dwelling which it is proposed to take would have his interests completely safeguarded. As regards the Amendment to this particular Clause, I understand that in another place some store is set upon the Amendments which I am going to move. It is not in accordance with the rules of the House that I should move the Amendment at this point, but I may read it. It is to add the words
Question, " That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.
Words so restored to the Bill, amended by inserting, at the end of Sub-section (1,
"or to any house which is required for the occupation of a .person engaged on work necessary for the proper working of an agricultural holding."— [Mr. Munro.]
Lords Amendment:
After Clause 7, insert—
NEW CLAUSE.—(Amendment of s. 31 of 9 & 10, Geo 5, c. 60, and of s. 10 of 9 & 10, Geo. 5, c. 99.)
In Section thirty-one of the Housing, Town Planning, &c. (Scotland), Act, 1919,
and in Section ten of the Housing (Additional Powers) Act, 1919, the words " the issue of any share or loan capital with interest or dividend exceeding the rate for the time being prescribed by the Treasury," shall be substituted for the words " the payment of any interest or dividend at a rate exceeding six per centum per annum," and for the words, " payment of any interest or dividend at a higher rate than six per centum per annum " respectively, and any public utility society or authorised association shall have and shall be deemed to have had power, notwithstanding anything in their rules or constitution prohibiting the payment of any interest on loan capital at a rate exceeding six per centum per annum, to raise money on loan at a rate of interest not exceeding the rate for the time being prescribed by the Treasury as aforesaid.
I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This was a Government Amendment moved in another place, its purpose being to substitute for the present fixed maximum rate of interest, which is 6 per cent., a higher rate which can be fixed by agreement with the Treasury. The position at present is that public utility societies in Scotland can borrow at 6 per cent, and no higher, and that is a great hardship. The rate is too low under the existing conditions, and accordingly the proposal embodied in this Clause is that these societies should be permitted to borrow at a rate which shall be fixed by agreement with the Treasury, and in accordance with the varying conditions of the times.
Does this mean that in the erection of any new house by a public utility society in Scotland they can borrow money and pay interest at a higher rate than 6 per cent., which will mean that that higher rate will require to be got back by a higher rent imposed on the house which that society erects?
The meaning of the Amendment is that the public utility society will be entitled to borrow at a rate-exceeding 6 per cent. It cannot get the money to build houses under existing conditions at that rate, and accordingly the alternative is between not building houses at all and borrowing the money to build houses at a higher rate than 6 per cent. The Treasury will have the final word in the matter. Whether the higher rate is reflected in the rent of the house or not is a matter for the public utility society to determine.
We understand then that it is not the workmen who are responsible wholly for the non-erection of houses, but the financiers who have demanded their pound of flesh?
Is it not also a fact that some of the public utility societies, unless they have this power, will not be able to build the class of house which will give habitation to the people my hon. Friend has in mind? If by this Clause it is possible to build additional houses, surely there is no reason for not doing it.
Question, " That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.
First Schedule
Provisions as to the Compulsory Hiring of Houses by Local Authorities
1. Where a local authority propose to hire a house compulsorily under this Act they may give notice in the prescribed manner to the owner of the house of their intention so to do and may make an Order for the purpose in the prescribed form.
2. The Order shall be published, and twenty-one days' notice thereof shall be given to the owner and any tenant of the house in the prescribed manner.
3. The Order shall be submitted to the Board and shall be of no effect until it has been confirmed by them, and prior to such confirmation the owner and tenant, or either of them, shall be entitled to be heard by the Board in opposition to the confirmation of such Order: Provided that, in the case of a furnished house, the Board shall not confirm the Order unless, after giving all parties concerned an opportunity of being heard, the Board are satisfied that greater hardship would be caused by refusing to confirm than by confirming the Order, and provided further that the Board shall not confirm any Order where the estimated cost of any alterations or adaptations (including cost of removal and storage of furniture) is, in the opinion of the Board, in excess of what is reasonable, having regard to the period of hiring; confirmation by the Board shall be conclusive evidence that the requirements of this Act have been complied with, and that the Order has been duly published and made and is within the powers of this Act.
4. No compensation otherwise than by way of rent shall be payable in respect of the house compulsorily hired, and in the case of a furnished house no compensation otherwise than as aftermentioned shall be payable in respect of the furniture in the house or the loss of profit arising from the letting of the house as a furnished house, and in determining the amount of the rent or other sums payable no additional allowance shall be made on account of the hiring being compulsory.
5. Notwithstanding that the amount of the rent or other sums payable has not been determined, the local authority shall be
6. In default of agreement as to the amount of rent or other sums to he paid by the local authority, or as to the other terms of the tenancy (including the delivery up of the house in proper condition), the amount of the rent or other sums payable or the other terms shall be fixed by an official arbiter appointed under the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919, and the provisions of that Act shall apply for the purpose, subject to such necessary adaptations as may be prescribed.
7. In fixing the amount of rent to be paid regard shall be had to any sums which may have been, or may require to be, spent by the local authority in putting the house-into a condition reasonably fit for human habitation.
8. Where the amount which was originally estimated as sufficient to put the house into a state reasonably fit for human habitation subsequently appears to the local authority not to be sufficient for that purpose, the local authority may, with the consent of the Board, apply to have the rent payable reassessed by the official arbiter.
9. In the case of the compulsory hiring of a furnished house there shall be payable to the person to whom the furniture in the house belongs such compensation in respect of the removal and storage of the furniture as the official arbiter aforesaid shall, in default of agreement, determine; and if the furniture shall not have been removed prior to the date when the local authority enter into possession of the house, the local authority may make arrangements for the removal and storage of the furniture.
10. In this schedule the expression " pre scribed " means prescribed by the Board, and the expression " owner " has the same meaning as in the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897.
Lords Amendment:
Leave out the First Schedule.
I beg to move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
We desire the re-insertion of the Schedule, with certain Amendments that I shall propose. This Motion is really consequential on the restoration of the first Clause, because the Schedule, which in another place disappeared, provided for the compulsory hiring of a house. The' view was taken that the house that was taken over under compulsory hiring powers, which the Lords left out, might be taken over under conditions unduly onerous to the owner. In the Bill as it stands provision is made for any loss of storage or removal which the owner may sustain by reason of his house having been taken over. It is proposed to add, by the Amendments to be moved in a moment, that in addition to the storage and removal losses, that the owner of the house shall also be entitled to compensation for the insurance of his furniture, for the depreciation of it, and reinstatement in the house that has been taken over. These additional safeguards ought to be regarded as affording complete protection to any man whose house has been taken over under the compulsory hiring provisions of this Clause.
I understood the action of the Lords was to increase the security to the owner and provide greater and more satisfactory compensation for the use or appropriation of their dwellings. I am afraid my right hon. and learned Friend did not exactly explain what was the intention.
In answer to my hon. Friend, may I say that in another place the first Clause of the Schedule which dealt with compulsory hiring of houses disappeared. Some criticism was offered to the safeguards to the owner, and to meet that criticism I am proposing to insert in this Schedule that the owner shall not only get compensation with respect to the loss sustained upon the storage, removal, and insurance of his furniture now in the Bill, but that he shall also be protected in respect of the depreciation in value and reinstatement of his furniture. The purpose of the Amendments I am moving is to meet that criticism in another place to the effect that the owner was not sufficiently protected.
Question put, and agreed to.
May I ask—
The hon.
Gentleman has exhausted his right to speak.
Amendments made: In paragraph 3, after the word " including " [" including cost of removal and storage of furniture "], and insert instead thereof the words "in the case of a furnished house the."
Leave out the word " and " [" removal and storage "], and insert after the word " storage" the words " insurance, depreciation in value, and reinstatement."
In paragraph (9) leave out the word '' and " [" removal and storage "], and insert after the word " storage" the words "' insurance, depreciation in value, and reinstatement."— [Mr. Munro.]
Dentists Bill
Order for Second Beading read, and discharged; Bill withdrawn.
It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order,
Adjourned at Ten minutes before Twelve o'clock.