House of Commons
Monday, March 7, 1921
Private Business
London County Council (General Powers) Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock.
THE CLERK AT THE TABLE (Sir Courtenay Ilbert) informed the House of the unavoidable absence of Mr. SPEAKER from this day's Sitting.
Whereupon Mr. WHITLEY, the Chairman of Ways and Means, proceeded to the Table and, after Prayers, took the Chair as Deputy-Speaker, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Sunderland and South Shields Water Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Wednesday.
Oral Answers to Questions
Trade and Commerce
Great Britain and Ireland
asked the President of the Board of Trade what was the value of trade between Ireland and Great Britain for the years 1913, 1918, 1919, and 1920?
Particulars respecting the trade between Ireland and Great Britain during the year 1920 are not yet available. For the years 1913, 1918 and 1919 the values, as ascertained by the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland, were as follow:
— 1913. 1918. 1919. Imports into Great Britain from Ireland 71,758,000 152,372,000 174,005,000 Exports from Great Britain to Ireland 57,135,000 110,984,000 132,374,000
Clinical Thermometers
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has prohibited the sale of clinical thermometers unless they have been previously approved by the National Physical Laboratory; and, if so, by what authority he has done so?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Baling on 21st February, of which I am sending him a copy.
Is the House to understand from the reply that if a manufacturer of clinical thermometers attempts to sell his products accompanied by a certificate that they have been tested, that he can be sent to prison for so doing unless he sends his goods to a Government Department so that his goods can be again tested?
He has to comply with the Order that is in force.
Is the Department exercising a power that the House of Commons distinctly refused to give it only two months ago?
It is exercising a power which has been in existence throughout. The House of Commons has never refused to give it that power.
Under what authority is it acting?
It is an Order in Council made during the War.
Under the Defence of the Realm Act?
Yes.
British Produced Goods
asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the percentage of British produced goods consumed in this country and exported?
It is not possible to state the present proportion with any certainty, as no Census of Production in the United Kingdom has been taken since the War. The information relating to 1907 published in the Report on the Census of Production for that year shows that, of the total value, taken as at field, mine or factory, of the goods produced in the United Kingdom, about 30 per cent. was represented by exports and 70 per cent. by goods retained in this country. If foodstuffs and raw materials of industry be excluded, the remaining goods produced were divided in the approximate proportion of 39 per cent. exported, and 61 per cent. retained in this country. It is believed that the proportionate division between exports and home consumption was not notably different, immediately before the War, from that revealed by the Census for 1907.
What steps are the Government taking to encourage the export of goods produced in this country?
I hardly think that arises out of this question. There will be an opportunity to debate that on a subsequent occasion. Obviously it is quite impossible in answer to a supplementary question to debate the whole question of assisting export credit.
Surely I may ask my hon. Friend exactly what steps the Government are taking? It is a very important matter indeed.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman should put his question on the Paper.
Questions
British America Nickel Corporation
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has agreed to a request from the British America Nickel Corporation that the first mortgage bonds held by him shall be subject to a prior charge; and, if such is the case, will he state what equivalent, if any, he will receive?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Further capital could only be raised by a modification of the rights of the first mortgage bond holders of the British America Nickel Corporation and by the surrender of a royalty to which other persons were entitled in priority to those bond holders.
Is the President of the Board of Trade prepared to surrender some of these rights without any equivalent?
What I am prepared to do is to make the best arrangement possible in the circumstances. I have taken the best advice available as to whether the proposal submitted was in the interest of the Government investments. I was advised that it was so and I have taken that advice.
Shall we have any opportunity of expressing an opinion before this proposal is confirmed?
Not before the proposal is confirmed, but any action which the Board of Trade has taken in the matter will be open to criticism in the ordinary way.
Builders' Castings
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received any Report from the Committee on Trusts concerning the prices of builders' castings; and, if not, in view of the fact that this Committee was appointed over 12 months ago, is he prepared to consider the advisability of appointing a fresh Committee with instructions to issue a Report forthwith, instead of allowing this matter to remain over indefinitely.
The Report on light castings has been received and is now being printed. It will be published in a few days.
Transport
Deep-Water Wharf, Canvey Island
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that a Bill is about to be brought before the House of Commons asking for power to construct a deep-water wharf connected with the railway at Canvey Island, near Southend, which will accommodate the largest liners at all states of the tide; if he is aware that it will be the means of finding employment for some hundreds of men for a good length of time; and whether the Government will be prepared to push the Bill forward, and, if possible, facilitate the passing of the Bill at the earliest opportunity?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, but I am unable to anticipate my Report to Parliament on this Bill, which will be made in due course.
Has not the right hon. Gentleman already made up his mind what line of action he is going to take?
I have not made my report yet, and I would rather not anticipate it.
Could the right hon. Gentleman give an answer to the last part of the question, whether the Government will be prepared to push the Bill forward? A great many of us think it should be pushed forward.
I think that would be anticipating my report. Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will wait until I make it.
When will the report be made?
As soon as possible.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make it before he leaves office?
Yes, Sir.
First-Class Railway Passengers
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that there has been during the last six months a considerable decrease in the number of first-class railway passengers; and whether he will recommend that the rate of first-class fares be slightly reduced so that more persons may be encouraged to travel first class?
The proportion of first-class passengers conveyed has declined from 3·25 per cent. of the total (excluding workmen and season ticket holders) in July to 2·87 per cent. in December, 1920. In 1913 the proportion was only 2·74 per cent. The recent decline cannot be entirely attributed to the increase in fares made last summer, as the proportion fell from 3·88 per cent. in the year 1919 to 3·25 per cent. in the month of July, 1920, and the decline was therefore in progress before any change in fares took place. In all the circum- stances, I do not consider it desirable to make any further revision of first-class fares at the moment.
Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied as Minister of Transport that the first-class carriages in this country are being utilised to the utmost of their capacity?
If there are any instances where they are not fully occupied they can be taken off the trains.
Is it not a fact that when the 50 per cent. increase was put upon fares it made practically no difference, and that since the 75 per cent. was put on the number of first-class passengers has decreased, and in order to meet that will not the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to recommend a small reduction in fares?
The only object one has in view is to try to make the best of the railways. The only object one has is to try to get revenue. As the number of first-class passengers is in percentage in excess of what it was in 1913, I think we ought to have a little more experience before we alter the fares.
Railway Agreements
asked the Minister of Transport the composition of the Colwyn Committee; and whether there was any member of the Ministry of Transport staff on the committee or acting as secretary to it?
The Colwyn Committee was composed of the chairman, five Members of this honourable House, an official of the Treasury, and the president of the Federation of British Industries. The secretary was a Treasury official, and no member of the Ministry of Transport staff was on the Committee or acted as secretary.
asked the Minister of Transport whether his attention has been called to a statement to the effect that the Minister of Transport cannot disavow responsibility for the existing position of the railways when it is the result of the mass of agreements concluded between the Ministry of Transport and the companies during the two years which have elapsed since the War; and what agreements the Ministry of Transport entered into with the railway companies and the dates and nature of such agreements.
My attention has been drawn to a statement in the Press on the lines referred to, which has no foundation whatever in fact, and was apparently made without any knowledge either of the arrangements or of the Report of the Colwyn Committee, in which the position is clearly set out. The whole of the arrangements are antecedent in time to the formation of this Ministry.
Railway Police
asked the Minister of Transport whether, in the case of the railway police, the general machinery to deal with questions of wages and working conditions to be included in the provisions of the Railway Grouping Bill will be one of the railway trades unions, or an organisation on the lines of the Police Federation set up by the Government for the civil police?
I must refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave him on this subject on 20th December, to which I can add nothing.
Fish Traffic, Ireland
asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that the Irish railway companies are in some cases refusing to accept parcels of fish from the English fishing ports to well-known firms in Ireland for sale in Ireland; and whether this policy has his approval?
I am not aware of the circumstances mentioned in this question, and the Irish railway companies who have been consulted know of no refusal on their part to accept the traffic referred to. I will, however, make further inquiries if the hon. and gallant Member will furnish any details in his possession.
Easter Excursions, Belfast
asked the Minister of Transport if he has made any arrangements to have tickets at excursion rates issued from Belfast to stations in Great Britain at Easter?
The railway companies are not proposing to issue excursion tickets between Belfast and stations in Great Britain, as they do not consider that additional net revenue could be obtained thereby.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what was done about running excursions from Paddington last Saturday?
I cannot give the information out of my head. I should be very glad to supply the information.
Will the right hon. Gentleman grant facilities for excursions from other parts of Ireland?
Railway Travel Facilities
asked the Minister of Transport if he can state, in percentage form, to what extent railway facilities for the travelling public have now been restored in comparison with the figures for July, 1914?
No monthly mileage figures are available prior to January, 1920, when the Ministry of Transport statistics were instituted. Had these returns been in existence before I could have replied to the hon. and gallant Member's question.
Questions
Wages (International Statistics)
asked the President of the Board of Trade the average weekly wages of workmen in France, Germany, Italy, and the United States, as compared with those in our own country, making due allowance for the varying rates of exchange?
I have been asked to reply. I am sorry to be unable to furnish the information desired by my hon. and gallant Friend. International comparisons of this kind can, I fear, produce no practical result until the various countries have reached an agreement to carry out wages inquiries on a national scale at concerted and frequent intervals, and to pursue identical methods, not only in collecting and collating data, but also in presenting the results.
Subsidence (Mining Areas)
asked the Secretary for Mines whether the promised Government Bill to provide compensation in cases of subsidence in mining areas is now ready; and when it is proposed to introduce it?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to a similar question on 23rd February, to which I have at present nothing to add.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is nearly twelve months since this Bill was promised?
I cannot remember the exact date. It is certainly some time ago.
What was the answer to which the right hon. Gentleman refers?
The answer I referred to before was that the matter was under consideration, but I was not in a position to say when a Bill would be introduced.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that is almost exactly the answer I got four months ago?
In the present state of business I cannot say anything more definite.
Domestic Coal, Prices
asked the Secretary for Mines whether, in view of the apprehension of the householder of a further immediate increase in the price of domestic coal, he can give a general estimate as to the loss or otherwise to the coalowners on a ton of coal raised and sold at the present prices?
I am arranging for the publication, early this week, of statistics of the output, proceeds and profits of the coal mining industry for the month of January, which is the latest period for which figures are available, and I hope that those statistics will provide the hon. and gallant Member with the information he requires.
Arson. Manchester
asked the Prime Minister whether the victims of arson committed in and around Manchester recently will be granted any compensation; and, if so, from what source will same be paid?
The answer is in the negative. The cases referred to were not cases of riot, and there is no reason why the burden should be put upon the inhabitants of the district or the general body of taxpayers.
Rates
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the urgent need for bringing home to the electorate the real source of high local expenditure and heavy local rates, he will introduce legislation making the direct payment of rates in all cases compulsory, and making illegal the compounding of rates by householders?
I cannot add anything to the replies which have already been given to my hon. Friend's questions on this subject by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.
Municipal Government, London
asked the Prime Minister whether he recently received a deputation from the London County Council asking the Government to appoint a Committee or Royal Commission to inquire into the problems of municipal government and the constant overlapping of authorities in London and Greater London; whether any decision has been come to by the Government on this matter and do they propose to appoint such a Committee or Commission; and, if so, when?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and in accordance with what was arranged with the deputation, the views of other authorities concerned are being ascertained through the Minister of Health.
Russia
Trade Agreement
asked the Prime Minister whether any further progress has been made with the negotiations for a trade agreement with Russia?
I have been asked to reply. M. Krassin, the representative of the Soviet Government arrived in this country at the end of last week and discussions will be resumed with him on the points outstanding in the draft Trade Agreement.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that M. Krassin was held up in Berlin owing to obstacles put in the way by the passport authorities of this country, and will he tell me whether it is intended to proceed with these negotiations forthwith or to put further delays in the way?
Is it not a fact that M. Krassin has an office in Berlin?
I do not know whether he has or has not, nor have I any information as to the delay that has occurred in Berlin. I am not in the least disposed to accept the suggestion about the delay made by the hon. and gallant Member. The negotiations will proceed. If there has been delay, that delay has not been due to delay on the part of His Majesty's Government.
Will the negotiations proceed forthwith?
Will the hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that the negotiations will not continue until it is perfectly certain that the Bolshevik Government still exists?
Questions
Defence of the Realm Act
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that a gentleman upon whom a baronetcy was recently conferred is now found to be the individual who was convicted for food hoarding during the War, he will recommend that the patent for this baronetcy be annulled?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on the 28th February, to which I have nothing to add.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this gentleman was on the list for consideration for appointment as a magistrate, and that his name was not allowed to go forward on the ground that the local authorities were of opinion that this case of food hoarding was such a serious one?
That question is not on the Paper. The hon. and gallant Member must give notice of it.
Motor Lorries (Subsidy)
asked the Prime Minister when an opportunity will be given to discuss the proposed subsidy of motor lorries in the event of their being required for purposes of war?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. I have already given an undertaking that nothing shall be spent on this scheme until the Vote on Account for the Army for 1921–22 has been taken, which will afford a suitable opportunity for discussion.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why the forms were printed and distributed before the Government had considered the scheme?
I think the hon. Member must put that question on the Paper.
Royal Navy
Policy
asked the Prime Minister whether the decision of the Cabinet on the Committee of Imperial Defence's Report on certain aspects of naval policy may be communicated to the House at once; and whether he is satisfied that the Admiralty will have sufficient time to frame and print the statement of the First Lord of the Admiralty and the readjustment of the Navy Estimates by the time the discussion must take place before the end of the financial year?
In reply to the first part of my hon. Friend's question, it will be possible to state the views of the Government on naval policy in the discussion of the Estimates. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative.
Will the right hon. Gentleman communicate with the Prime Minister and represent the view that this is a very complicated question and should not be thrown at the House in the discussion on the Naval Estimates; and that we should like to have the Paper conveying the views of the Committee of Imperial Defence a few days in advance so that we can consider them?
Prison Service (War Bonus)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he is aware that the War bonus due to all naval prison service officers granted from 1st March, 1920, has not yet been paid; and if he will remedy this?
It is hoped that a decision will soon be reached in this matter.
Prize Money
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if any further distribution of prize money is probable and to what amount and when; if he can give the amount of prize money allocated as droits of Admiralty and that allocated as droits of the Crown; how this amount works out as an average per man of the lower deck; and if he can state if the law expenses have been paid out of the droits of the Crown or if such are free of law expenses?
A further distribution of prize money will be made as soon as the total amount of the Prize Fund can be ascertained, and it is hoped that this information will be available by the end of the year. It is not anticipated that the amount in the Fund at any earlier date will warrant a second distribution on account. In accordance with Schedule 2 of the Naval Prize Act, legal expenses are not chargeable to the Fund. Droits of Admiralty are administered by the Treasury and not by the Admiralty, but in any case, as the total amount of prize money cannot yet be stated, it is not possible to give the additional information asked for by my hon. and gallant Friend.
Peace Treaties
Mandates
asked the Prime Minister whether the terms of the Mandate approved by the Council of the League of Nations for New Guinea, Samoa, Nauru, and ex-German South-West Africa contain a provision prohibiting in those areas the supply of intoxicating spirits to natives; and whether the draft Mandate for Tanganyika territory submitted by the British Government contains a similar provision?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, Article V of the draft Mandate requires that the mandatory shall exercise a strict control over the sale of spirituous liquor.
Does not Article 22 of the Covenant include
"the abolition of abuses such as the slave trade, the arms traffic, and the liquor traffic"
in mandatory areas? Are we, or are we not, standing by Article 22 of the League of Nations Covenant?
Yes. I understand so.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether other nations are parties to the inclusion of the nation and Island of Nauru within the ambit of the League of Nations?
Some nations are.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that most of the Governments in Africa and other dependencies prohibit the sale of liquor to natives, and will he consider the matter before His Majesty's Government give their final assent, in view of the fact that to admit liquor would be a retrogressive action, having regard to the general attitude towards native labour in Africa?
Yes.
What is the population of the nation of Nauru which is affected?
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Mandate for Tanganyika departs from or does not depart from the words in the Covenant of the League of Nations governing these cases?
I cannot say without notice. I should have to consider that.
Are they substituting regulation for prohibition? That is the whole point. Will the right hon. Gentleman promise to look into that?
I will ask another question.
Does the right hon. Gentleman say that he will not look into that point?
I say that I shall require notice.
That is really what is on the Paper. I would like an answer to that.
Perhaps the hon. Member will put the Question down again.
asked the Lord Privy Seal when he proposes to publish in this country the draft mandates for Mesopotamia, Palestine, and East Africa?
The draft mandates for Mesopotamia and Palestine were laid before the House on the 3rd instant, that for East Africa will be laid in the course of a few days.
asked whether the mandate or mandates, if more than one, for Syria will be officially published at or about the same time as the mandates for Mesopotamia and Palestine; and whether copies of the Syrian mandates will also be available for the consideration of Members of the House?
The mandates for Mesopotamia and Palestine have been laid before the House, and I understand that the French Government are about to publish the mandate for Syria.
Will the mandates for Togoland and the Kameroons be published, as well as that for Syria?
I am not in a position to answer that question.
In view of the great responsibility which we have in the Middle East, shall we have an opportunity of seeing it? Will it be published as a Parliamentary Paper?
That is a matter for the French Government.
Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that this House will have an opportunity of seeing it? If he is unable to answer, will he consult the Leader of the House?
I will consult the Leader of the House.
London Conference (Prime Minister's Speech)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will agree to give expression to the desire of the nation that his speech to the German delegates, delivered on 3rd March, should be printed in brochure form and distributed throughout the country; that translations be made into European languages; and that copies be sent to the principal Press agencies in Europe and the United States?
Full publicity has already been given to the speech referred to in my hon. Friend's question in every country in the world.
Germany
37 and 38.
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether the tariffs to be levied in certain events by a line of customs houses temporarily established on the Rhine are to be collected in paper marks;
(2) whether, in view of the attitude of Germany towards her treaty obligation, the British Government will reconsider its decision to waive its right to seize German property in this country in the event of such evasion; and whether it will also proceed with the destruction of the military aerodromes and seaplane stations at Breslau, Gandau, Brunswick, Furth, Grossenhain, Hamburg, Paderborn, Schleissheim, Deveau, Kiel Holtenau, Norderney, Warnemunde, and Lift?
asked the Prime Minister if, in view of the procrastination of Germany in carrying out the Treaty of Versailles, he will now suggest, with the approval of our Allies, that a combined and sufficient force of all arms should march to Berlin, thus impressing the German people that they are a beaten nation, and by this means enable all the Allies to get on with reconstruction and commercial prosperity?
asked the Prime Minister whether, in the event of Germany refusing to carry out the terms of the Allies, a blockade of the German coast will be declared?
The Prime Minister has asked me to reply. I would ask that these questions be postponed, as the Conference has not yet come to a decision.
Reparations from Germany
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total value in sterling received from Germany in kind in respect of reparations by the Reparations Commission on behalf of all the Allies?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Stoke Newington (Mr. G. Jones) on the 25th ultimo.
Questions
Armaments
asked the Prime Minister whether America has as yet given any expression of opinion as to whether she is prepared to discuss the question of armaments; and what is the attitude of Japan to such a question?
I am not yet in a position to make any statement on this subject.
Does not the Government think it is time to take the initiative on this very important question?
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the attention of the Government has been called to the resolution of the Senate of the United States on this question, and whether they will offer any comment on that expression of opinion?
Ireland
New Parliaments (Proposed Conference)
asked the Prime Minister whether, with a view to enlisting the co-operation of the Irish people in the settlement of the future government of Ireland, the Government will formulate proposals whereby those Members who will be elected to the Northern and Southern House of Commons, respectively, shall meet in joint session in order to decide whether they will assume parliamentary responsibility under the Government of Ireland Act as it stands; and, if not, what amendments are necessary in the Act to enable them to undertake parliamentary responsibility or, in the event of failure to reach essential agreement, to prepare and publish a detailed scheme, or schemes, for the future government of Ireland?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative; but as the House is aware, it is one of the cardinal features of the Government of Ireland Act that the two Parliaments should be in a position by identical decisions to enlarge the scope of the functions delegated by the United Kingdom Parliament under that Act. Moreover, there is nothing to prevent the representatives of Northern and Southern Ireland from meeting together at any time after their election to discuss methods of common interest, and I need hardly say that His Majesty's Government would give the most earnest consideration to any joint representations submitted to them as the result of such a meeting. The Act itself expressly contemplates joint action on the part of the two Parliaments, and constitutes for this purpose a Council of Ireland consisting of members of the two Parliaments.
Murder (Michael Walsh, Galway)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is now in a position to make a statement with regard to the murder of Michael Walsh, of Galway, on 19th October last?
The military court of inquiry in lieu of inquest found that Michael Walsh died on the night of the 20th-21st October, 1920, as a result of a gunshot wound inflicted by some person or persons unknown.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it time that some other answer was given to the House in these cases of murders? Does he never find out who did it?
Yes, we frequently find out who commit the murders, and they are dealt with according to law.
Military Forces
asked the Chief Secretary whether, since on account of the determined hostility of 80 per cent. of Irish people to British rule it is impossible to carry on the government of that country by any other means than the Use of force, he will recommend the Government to withdraw the present Army of Occupation from Ireland and allow the duly elected representatives of the Irish people to establish a Government which has the support of their constituents?
No, Sir.
Arrest (Mr. W. V. Donohoe)
asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been called to the case of Mr. W. V. Donohoe, clerk of the Tubbercurry Union and Rural District Council, County Sligo; whether this official was arrested in the month of January and has since been detained in Sligo gaol, no charge having yet been preferred against him; whether he is aware that this man has no connection with any political organisation; and whether, in view of the fact that his long detention in prison is seriously affecting his health, he will take action to have him released or at least brought to early trial?
I hope to complete my inquiry into this case very shortly.
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what he means by "very shortly"? This man has been in gaol since January without any trial.
I must stick to my answer; I will report as soon as possible.
Agricultural Wages Board
asked the Chief Secretary, in view of the exclusion of Ireland from the operations of the Agriculture Act, 1920, when the Government intend to promote legislation for the purpose of extending the life of the Irish Agricultural Wages Board which, under the Corn Production Act, 1917, would cease to exist by the end of next year, and thus place the Irish agricultural workers in a position to secure, where necessary by legal process, advantages and benefits similar to those given to agricultural labourers in Great Britain?
The continuance or otherwise of the Agricultural Wages Board in Ireland after 1922 is a matter for settlement by the Irish Parliaments constituted under the Government of Ireland Act, 1920.
Who is to deal with this matter?
The Irish Parliaments.
What Irish Parliament are you talking about?
Old Age Pensions (Census Returns)
asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that a very great hardship is being inflicted on applicants for old age pensions by reason of the fact that the Census returns for years later than 1851 are not available in the Public Record Office, Dublin, and old age pension applicants are thereby greatly handicapped in tracing their ages; and whether he will take steps to have the Census returns, 1861 to 1881, transferred to the Public Record Office where they will be available to the public?
I am aware of the difficulty referred to by the hon. Member. The Census returns from 1861 to 1881 have been destroyed in consequence of an undertaking given on the leaseholders' forms to the effect that the information would be published in general abstracts only, and that strict care would be taken that the returns should not be used for any other object than that of rendering the Census as perfect as possible. No such undertaking was given in connection with the Census returns of 1841 and 1851, now in the Public Record Office. The householders' returns in connection with the Census of Great Britain have also been destroyed.
District Inspector Barrington
( by Private Notice ) asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that District Inspector Barrington, of the Royal Irish Constabulary stationed at Newry, arrested in that town a man named Wharton who had acted as guide to the Newry Special Constables on their looting expeditions; that large quantities of loot were found on his premises, and that District Inspector Barrington thereupon charged him with theft and with receiving stolen property; that on the same evening the district inspector arrested three of the Special Constables when they were robbing, and had almost murdered three employes of the British Petroleum Company, two of them being Unionists; that at the district inspector's request a search was made in the barracks of the Special Constables, where a large further quantity of stolen property was discovered and subsequently identified; that the cases were then taken out of the district inspector's jurisdiction and handed over to the military, with the effect of avoiding publicity; that the Special Constables then demanded the dismissal or removal of District Inspector Barrington, and that he has accordingly been transferred to another station of lower status; whether Barrington has an unblemished record of 35 years' service, including 13 years as a district inspector; whether the Special Constables are openly boasting that they have downed him, and whether it is intended to persevere in the proposed degradation?
Wharton and nine special constables were arrested by District Inspector Barrington, and are now awaiting trial by court-martial. The cases were not taken out of the District Inspector's hands and given over to the military with a view to avoiding publicity. It is the usual practice at the present time to try by court-martial members of the Crown Forces in Ireland who are accused of serious offences. Mr. Barrington's transfer from Newry was in no sense a degradation or a reflection on his conduct or efficiency; neither was it decided upon at the instance of the Special Con stabulary. No demand for his dismissal or removal was made by the Special Constabulary. He has been sent to an equally important station, and has the full confidence of his superior officers.
Why was District Inspector Barrington removed from Newry, if it was not for arresting these specials? What was the reason for removing him?
I have endeavoured to answer the question. District Inspector Barrington has the full confidence of his superior officers.
Then why was he degraded and removed? [HON. MEMBERS: "He was not degraded!"] Yes, he was. I know more about it than hon. Members opposite.
The hon. Member is entitled to put a question, but not to argue.
I want to ask the Chief Secretary whether District Inspector Barrington has been removed from a first-class station to a third-class station, and why he has been removed and degraded, seeing that they have expressed the greatest confidence in him?
I have answered this question. He has not been degraded.
An Irish rise.
In view of the efficiency of this District Inspector, who is a Unionist and a Protestant, in bringing to justice special constables who looted the houses of civilians, why was he taken from Newry and sent to an inferior district?
As the right hon. Gentleman denies that this inspector was transferred for any one of the reasons in the latter part of the question, can he state the reason?
This inspector and dozens of others have been constantly transferred in the interests of the efficiency of the Force.
Is it in the interests of the efficiency of the force, and the confidence of the people in the district where these officers are, that this man should have been transferred to an inferior district after he had brought robbers and looters to justice?
Is it not a fact that Newry is a first-class station, whilst the station where this inspector has been transferred is only a third-class station?
I have answered that question.
We will raise this question on the Police Vote.
It is a public scandal.
Questions
Members' Speeches (Time Limit)
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether his attention has been directed to the action of Swiss legislatures in enacting that speeches by members should be limited to 20 minutes each on the ground that much time has been wasted in speeches of unnecessary length even on trivial subjects; and whether he will suggest a similar remedy in the case of Debates in this House?
I have no information in regard to the first part of the question. The suggestion in the second part of the question has often been considered, but I hardly think that it would be welcomed by the House.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it desirable to take steps to ascertain what is the feeling of the House?
I think that that has been done more than once.
Mechanically-Propelled Vehicles
asked the Minister of Transport whether it is intended to introduce legislation during the present Session for the revision and amendment of the Acts relating to the use and construction of mechanically-propelled vehicles?
Owing to the policy generally favoured in the House of deferring legislation not absolutely necessary at the present time, I regret that the reply is in the negative.
Mexico
asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the Mexican dollar now stands at 31 pence approximately; and whether, seeing that this is important evidence of the stability of the Mexican Government, he will sympathetically consider the speedy recognition of that Government?
I am aware that the Mexican dollar now stands at about 31 pence; as a similar rate obtained before the fall of the Carranza Government, I should hesitate to draw from this fact the inference which is drawn in this question, but the whole question of recognition is now under consideration.
Salmon, Marking Experiments
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that an extensive marking of salmon was inaugurated by his Fishery Department with a view of obtaining further information on their growth, migrations, and general life history, and that special labels were supplied by the Department for some years, and that numbers of salmon were caught and labels fixed at the instance of the various fishery boards free of cost to the Ministry of Agriculture; whether in February, 1915, his Board issued public notices offering rewards for the recapture of any of such salmon and the sending of them or the labels to the Board; whether these investigations have been stopped and the value of their continuity spoiled by the neglect of the Ministry to send further supplies of the marking labels to the above fishery boards, although they have in cases been repeatedly applied for; and whether he will see that in future such labels shall be promptly sent where required, so that these valuable investigations may be continued?
The answer to the first and second parts of the question is in the affirmative. The work came to an end during the War, and it is not proposed to issue further marks except in connection with a comprehensive and considered scheme of investigations.
When is it proposed to resume these investigations, as the matter is very important from the scientific point of view?
All I can say is that the matter is not closed, but at present it is not intended to continue this work.
Anti-Gas Factory, Watford
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions whether His Majesty's Anti-gas Factory at Watford is still held by the Government; and for what purpose it is at present used?
I have been asked to reply to this question. The answer to the first part is in the affirmative. The factory is at present being used for salvaging condemned respirators. As soon as this is completed it is proposed to close down the factory and dispose of it. The work of assembling respirators, for which the factory was originally equipped, is being transferred to Woolwich.
How long will this work take before it is completed?
I cannot say. I shall be glad to inquire and inform the hon. Member.
What value have these condemned respirators after they have been salved?
I am informed that by salving these respirators there is a small economy. They save something more than is paid for labour.
By whom are they used?
By the appropriate Department.
Royal Army Clothing Depot, Watford
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions for what purpose the Royal Army Clothing Depot at Watford is now being continued; what the property consists of which is stored in this depot; what steps are being taken to realise this property; and what is the staff at present engaged in connection with this depot?
I have been asked to reply. This depot is being retained temporarily for storing clothing and material required by the Army for which accommodation in permanent depots is not yet available; and also for storing articles which are surplus to Army requirements and are awaiting sale. The property consists mainly of material used in the manufacture of service dress and khaki drill clothing, made-up garments, towels and cutlery. The surplus stores are being sold, and room for the remainder is being made at permanent depots by the sale of surplus stores at present accommodated in them. The strength of the staff at present is 144; the number will shortly be reduced to 77, and further reductions will be made as the work connected with the disposal of surplus stores and the transfer of other stores decreases.
Ministry of Munitions, Staff
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions to what Department the staff of 2,550, which will remain when the Ministry is closed, is to be transferred?
I regret that I am not in a position to answer this question at the moment, but it is hoped that a statement will be made shortly.
Shall we have a statement some day before the Ministry is closed down?
I hope so.
Ex-Service Men
University Courses
asked the President of the Board of Education whether, in view of the heavy burden borne by taxpayers, of whom a small and rapidly dwindling proportion can afford to send their own children to British universities, it is proposed that 18,344 ex-officers should complete their studies at Oxford, Cambridge, and elsewhere at the public expense, or whether the time has come to leave those beneficiaries to complete their studies at their own expense or to adopt professions not requiring university degrees?
The Government would consider it a breach of faith to take the course suggested by the hon. Baronet.
Was any express promise made to these gentlemen that they should have a full university course at the expense of the taxpayer, and is there not an implied contract with the taxpayer that his money shall not be spent on counsels of perfection providing people from the rates with what they cannot afford for themselves?
We cannot have these elaborations.
Are these 18,000 ex-officers continuing their studies exclusively in Oxford and Cambridge?
No. These ex-service men are continuing their studies at all the universities and also at other places. The Government did make a distinct promise. It was the view of the Government, and it is still their view, that the expenditure upon these ex-officers and men is fully justified, that it is necessary to replenish our stock of educated men in industry, commerce, and the professions, and also as some slight acknowledgment of the debt which the nation owes to them.
Motor Car Building
asked the Minister of Labour whether the training of disabled men in vehicle building and painting has been so satisfactory in the Government instructional factory at Hayes that the Rolls-Royce Company have ordered a motor body made and painted by disabled men from this Government factory; and, if so, whether he will bring this fact to the notice of other motor-car builders, and also to the notice of employers in other industries, with a view to encouraging them to make similar purchases of the work done by disabled men in Government factories?
It is a fact that a well-known firm ordered a motor body for a Rolls-Royce chassis to be made and painted by the disabled ex-service men at the Hayes Instructional Factory. Exhibitions of the work of such trainees have been organised in various parts of the country, and I would be very grateful if Members would assist the Ministry of Labour by doing everything in their power to bring to the notice of the public the very excellent work that these trainees, who are all disabled ex-service men, are producing.
Questions
Serbians (English Education)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether any members of the Serbian or any other foreign nation are at present being educated at the expense of the British taxpayer; if so, in what numbers; at what institutions; and when such expenditure will cease?
A grant to the Serbian Relief Fund at the rate of £25,000 per annum for the education of young Serbians in this country has been included in the Estimates (Class IV, Vote 10B) since 1918. This grant, which was for a period of three years, will cease in July, 1921. The number of students is now about 60, and they are being educated at universities, university colleges, and technical schools. I am not aware of any other grants of this nature.
Are the Serbians educating any British youths at the Serbian universities; and, if not, for what reason is this expense being forced upon the British taxpayer?
Is it not a great advantage to have these Serbian youths here instead of their going to Berlin or Vienna?
The answer was fully explained in this House on the Estimates, when my hon. Friend (Sir J. D. Rees) had the advantage of expressing his views.
Employment Exchanges (Women Employes)
asked the Minister of Labour the number of women employed in connection with the Employment Ex- changes; whether any appointments or promotions have recently been made at salaries of £200 and upwards; and whether several of the women in question are fully employed and are not entirely dependent on their pay?
The number of women in the Employment Exchange service, both at headquarters and in provincial offices, on 26th February last, was 4,237, of whom 864 are permanent officers and 3,373 temporary; the latter are engaged in dealing with the present abnormal unemployment among women and girls. During the last six months 5 women have been promoted and 44 women appointed to posts carrying £200 per annum and upwards, inclusive of the present cost-of-living bonus. Practically all these women are engaged on work amongst women and girls which women alone can properly undertake. All the women in the Employment Exchange service are not only fully employed, but are at present working under extreme pressure. The temporary staffs of the Employment Exchange services are kept under constant review, in order to ensure that women not dependent on their pay are not retained.
Receipt Stamps (Wages)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that certain employers in the boot and shoe industry are deducting from their operatives' wages 2d. for a receipt stamp where their earnings exceed £2; whether a deduction of this nature in connection with the payment of wages can be held to be legal; and, if not, will the Department so inform the employers in question upon being supplied with definite information?
The question whether such action would be legal would be one for the Courts to determine. A case has been brought to my attention in which a receipt stamp has been required by an employer in the boot repairing trade to which the Trade Boards Acts have been applied. The question has arisen as to whether the payment for the stamp by the worker constitutes a deduction within the meaning of the Acts, and the matter is at present under consideration.
Ship Joiners, Trade Dispute
asked the Minister of Labour whether either party to the present ship joiners' dispute have at any time during the strike approached his Department with a view of enlisting their services to obtain a settlement; and, if not, will he, in view of the very serious consequences of a continuance of the strike, offer the services of his Department to both sides, with a view of securing a meeting of the parties under the auspices of the Department?
Neither the Shipbuilding Employers' Federation nor the Amalgamated Society of Carpenters, Cabinetmakers and Joiners, who are the parties to this dispute, have approached the Ministry of Labour. If there had been any such approach it would, of course, have been my duty to have placed its services at their disposal. My right hon. Friend has already stated in the House, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for West Houghton and my right hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals, that as soon as he saw a prospect of successful action on the part of the Ministry he would take advantage of it. I am obliged to my hon. and gallant Friend for the suggestion which he makes in the latter part of his question, and it shall receive our most careful consideration.
Is it not a fact that ships are going daily to Cherbourg to be refitted as a result of this dispute?
Beyond all question this dispute is a very serious matter, and I can only repeat what I said, that the suggestion as to taking some steps in the matter will receive careful consideration.
Potent Drugs (Standardisation)
asked the Minister of Health whether he is devising a series of expensive measures relating to the control of sera and therapeutic substances, including a controlling authority, a big central laboratory, and other machinery, in consequence of a Report of a recent Departmental Committee appointed to consider that subject?
My hon. Friend's question clearly refers to a report contained in a leading article of the "Times" of Friday, 25th February. There is no truth in the suggestion that I am devising any measures of the kind indicated. From 1909 onwards suggestions have been, made by the General Medical Council and other influential bodies for some methods for securing a certain measure of standardisation in sera and other potent drugs and substances which cannot be tested by ordinary chemical means. The Committee reported to me during January of this year, and the chairman, Sir Mackenzie Chalmers, on his own responsibility, suggested a draft Bill. When the matter came before me in January, I took the view that action on the lines indicated of the proposed Bill was not practicable. So far as I have examined the subject, the Committee appeared to contemplate that the Medical Research Council, which already has laboratory equipment, should supervise the carrying out of whatever tests might prove to be required. No action has yet been taken upon the report or any recommendations made to my colleagues, and the intentions attributed to myself, to which my hon. Friend refers, are entirely fanciful.
Housing
Cost of Building
asked the Minister of Health whether any contracts have been placed, directly or indirectly, by the Ministry, for the building of houses on a percentage on the cost of erection basis; and if he will state the names of the contractors concerned and the number of houses each of them has contracted to build?
I answered a similar question addressed to me by the same hon. Member on the 23rd February, to the effect that no such contracts have been let, except in one case at Prescott for 28 houses. The houses are completed, and I am obtaining details and will send then to the hon. Member when they are obtained.
Local Committees
asked the Minister of Health whether his Department has ad- vised local authorities to co-opt on local housing committees experts in the building trade; whether he is aware that many local authorities have done this, but that the advice and services of these experts cannot be fully utilised on account of the fact that the Regulations do not permit of payment for any loss of time in attending the meetings of the housing committee; and whether he will consider the advisability of providing a remedy?
There is no authority in law for the payment of compensation to members of local authorities, or of their committees, for loss of time in attending meetings, and I could not undertake to introduce legislation to authorise such expenditure.
Questions
National Health Insurance(Medical Cards)
asked the Minister of Health whether he has received any complaints regarding the new form of medical card under the National Health Insurance scheme; whether he is aware that objection is taken to the new card on the ground that it is too inquisitorial; and whether he will give this objection his consideration?
The number of complaints which I have received about the insurance medical records is quite insignificant, consisting of representations from five only out of 10,000 approved societies and branches, none from any of the insurance committees, and nine, mainly on points of detail, out of the 150 Panel Committees representing the medical men on the Panel. The card is in substitution for two others used since the commencement of the Act and has been designed mainly to give to insured patients the advantages enjoyed by private patients in those practices where doctors keep records and are thereby enabled to be guided in treating current symptoms by reference to the patient's previous medical history.
Is it not the case that one of these later cards was given up because it was practically impossible for doctors to complete it?
That is quite true, and that is one of the reasons why the revised Card was designed. The other card was quit useless.
Am I to understand that this new card is supposed to give the doctor less trouble than the old one?
It certainly does—very much less. I will send my hon. Friend a copy of it.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have seen and studied a copy of the new card with several doctors who took a totally different view from that of the right hon. Gentleman?
The new card was designed by doctors, mainly by panel doctors, with a view to assisting themselves in their practice. It is not an invention of mine at all.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether any representatives of the medical profession were consulted before the card was issued?
I have just said that the card was designed by a committee consisting solely of members of the medical profession, a large percentage of them being men in insurance practice.
Women Clerks (Civil Service)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury how many permanent women clerks have been assimilated to the executive grade in accordance with paragraph 67 of the Reorganisation Committee's Report and the assimilation agreement?
The absorption of members of the permanent classes dealt with in the Reorganisation Committee's Report, including first and second class women clerks, depends, under paragraph 66 of the Report, in the first place upon the existence of vacancies in the establishments to be fixed in accordance with the revised grading. As it is not possible to determine at this stage the number of posts which will be available in the training grade of the executive class, first and second class women clerks of the classes concerned have been assimilated to the clerical class, in accordance with the recommendations of the Report, without prejudice to eventual higher appointments.
I do not understand. Have any women been assimilated yet?
In the permanent women's class, from this answer I should say "No."
What about the Sex Disqualification Removal Act? What about that? May I have an answer?
I must apologise to the Noble Lady, but I thought the answer really gave the whole case. The whole question of the grading of the requisite staff in the Civil Service is at present under consideration It is an extraordinarily tedious business, and until the question is decided as to numbers in all cases, and therefore, consequential on that, the number of vacancies, it is perfectly impossible to accomplish what is desired.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he considers that the Act of Parliament mentioned by the Noble Lady, or any other Act, can turn a woman into a man?
May I ask whether the same course or a different course of action has been adopted in the case of the temporary men?
This deals entirely with permanent classes and I am afraid I cannot answer the hon. Member's question without notice. It is an extraordinarily intricate subject.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Appeal Tribunals
asked the Minister of Pensions if, in order to strengthen the confidence of discharged soldiers in the decisions of the pensions appeals tribunals, he will recommend that all evidence or information laid before a tribunal should be communicated to the soldier concerned or his representative, and also that tribunals, in giving their decisions, should give a short explanation of the reasons for the decision when adverse to the soldier?
It would not be possible to supply the appellant with copies of all the papers relating to his case, but a précis of the material evidence is furnished to him at his request. The procedure of application is laid down in paragraph 81 A of the Local War Pensions Committees' Handbook. With regard to the last part of the question, I am informed that, where the circumstances admit, it is the practice of the majority of the chairmen of the tribunals to give an unsuccessful appellant a short explanation of the reasons for the decision.
Has the soldier any guarantee that the appeal tribunal is not put in possession of some evidence that is not communicated to the soldier?
Since I went to the Pensions Ministry I have been pressing for the supply to the appellant of all the information that the appeal tribunal has in its possession. I think that is but fair, but I think the appellant himself should ask, because obviously there are very many delicate matters in a man's record, medical and otherwise, which I should not like to hand over to a public body without his sanction.
Then the soldier sometimes does not know whether any information has been given or not, and unless he knows he cannot ask.
As my hon. and gallant Friend knows, I have no jurisdiction at all over the appeal tribunals, but so far as I am personally concerned, I am both anxious and willing that the appellant should have all the papers in his possession that the appeal tribunal have.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his predecessor on more than one occasion gave an under taking that these boards should in every case be treated as open courts, and that it is really the failure to carry out this undertaking that has led to a great deal of the trouble?
I do not know how any predecessor of mine could possibly have given that undertaking, because this appeal board is outside the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Pensions, at the request of this House. I am sorry that that should be so, but so far as I can I shall see that the appellant in every case gets, all the papers that he wants.
Disability Percentage
asked the Minister of Pensions whether, in assessing disability percentage, medical boards take into consideration a soldier's previous occupation or trade in which he is skilled; and if a miner who had a stiff knee which would prevent him working at the coal face would be assessed at the same percentage of disability as a soldier who had been employed in a sedentary occupation and in whose case a stiff knee would not force him to learn and take up a new occupation?
The flat rate disablement pension is awarded without reference to previous occupation. In substitution for it, however, and subject to the conditions stated in the Warrant, a man may claim an alternative pension which is based on actual loss of earning capacity, having regard both to his former occupation and to that which his disablement permits him to follow.
Women Auditors
asked the Minister of Pensions whether it is the policy of the Pensions Ministry to replace all women auditors by men without regard to efficiency; whether a 12 months' training is necessary to make a competent auditor; whether the women now employed were promised by the Director-General of Organisations that they would be retained in the audit section; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter?
The work of auditing awards of pensions is not regarded as specially appropriate to women, and accordingly, following the recommendations of Lord Lytton's Committee, the women employed on that work are regarded as substitutable by ex-service men. I am not prepared to alter the decision which has been taken to train and employ ex-service men on this work.
Are these men who are replacing the trained women in the audit department trained or untrained men?
Some are trained, and some are not yet trained, but I am prepared to train these men, because my first duty is towards the ex-service men.
Was not a promise made to these women that they should be retained in this particular Department, and are they not in fact dependent upon their earnings?
Of course, there may be exceptional circumstances where a woman has been trained in this Department and it would be profitable in the interests of the State to keep her on, but there are many instances where these women can be substituted by ex-service men, and in those circumstances it is my intention to continue so to substitute them.
May I ask if women who are dependent on their earnings are not also entitled to consideration?
Certainly, and I hope as long as I am at the Ministry, consistent with my duty towards the ex-service men, to have regard to these cases of women, but I think the House will agree that, particularly in the Ministry which I have the honour to control, my first duty is towards the ex-service men.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman also give preference to the widows of those who lost their lives in the War?
Yes; in every case where I substitute a man, I always keep to the very last the widow of an ex-service man.
Should the widow of an ex-service man, who has got her children dependent upon her, be turned out for a man?
I have just said, it is the very last resort.
Surely she ought never to be turned out?
Questions
Pacific Phosphate Company
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what are the names of the ex-officials of the Pacific Phosphate Company who have received compensation, and what is the amount that each of them has received as a result of the Nauru and Ocean Islands agreement?
The names and amounts are as follow:
Does that include the compensation given to the directors of the company, or is it only the officials?
No. As regards the compensation for the directors, they would find that for themselves out of the funds. They stipulated that certain of their officials, if they were not taken over, should be compensated.
Is it not a fact that the directors distributed among themselves out of the purchase price no less than £120,000 of the taxpayers' money for fulfilling very short duties in connection with this phosphate company?
I must demur to the suggestion that it was the taxpayers' money. The company was bought out for a certain sum, and it was entirely a question for the directors and shareholders how much the directors should receive. I have no cognisance of the sum which was actually allotted to them.
Who settled the compensation?
The amount of compensation was settled between the Government and the company.
Mesopotamia
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the strength of the Air Force in Mesopotamia; what is the number of railway personnel employed in Mesopotamia; and whether he will state the total number of people, British or otherwise, employed by the authorities in Mesopotamia, either directly or indirectly?
The answer to the first part of the question is: British, officers 128, other ranks 950; native personnel 220; as regards the second part of the question, I will make inquiries. The third part of the question is of too vague a character to enable any precise answer to be given.
War Office Employes (Trade Unions)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that in certain establishments under the control of the War Office inquiries are being made as to which of the workmen are trade unionists; whether these inquiries are being made in all establishments under the control of the War Office; and why are these inquiries being made?
No instructions for inquiries to be made among War Department employés as to whether they are or are not members of trade unions have been issued by the War Office. Possibly, the hon. Member's question has reference to the steps that are being taken to set up local works committees, in accordance with the Whitley Scheme for Government industrial establishments. As he is no doubt aware, it was agreed that the representation of the employés upon such bodies should be upon a trade union basis, which renders it necessary to ascertain locally what trade unions represent the employés at the various War Department establishments. The procedure adopted is in accord with the views of the employés' side of the War Department Industrial Council.
Passenger Vehicles (Overcrowding)
asked the Home Secretary when it is intended to withdraw the war-time permission regarding the overcrowding of tramcars and omnibuses, in order that the users of such vehicles may travel in comfort and the conductors carry on their work under reasonable conditions?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for South-East Leeds (Mr. O'Grady) on the 23rd December. The matter is being kept in view, but my information is that if this concession were withdrawn at present there would not be enough vehicles available to carry the public.
Government Stock, Dividends Counterfoils
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the Association of British Chambers of Commerce have passed a resolution to the effect that it should be obligatory upon the Bank of England to accompany all payments of dividends with a counterfoil, showing the full amount of dividend and the amount of tax deducted; that the Bank of England is considering at present the possibility of complying with this request; and will he, in the event of the bank being able to supply these counterfoils, take advantage of their issue to offer inducement for early payment of Income Tax to holders of those Government stocks upon which Income Tax is not in accordance with the terms of issue deductible at the source?
As I have already informed the Chambers of Commerce, it is hoped to introduce a system of counterfoils for dividends on Government stocks shortly As regards the last part of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answers which I gave on the 8th June last, in reply to his question on this subject, and to the further questions then addressed to me. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy. In this connection I may inform him that I am proposing to include in the forthcoming Revenue Bill a provision to enable a holder of Government securities, whose interest is payable without deduction of Income Tax, to elect to have tax deducted from the interest at the time of payment.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when I first asked a similar question more than two years ago, the Treasury admitted that it concerned 300 additional clerks or officials, and meant giving credit for about £26,000,000 for about 15 months; and, further, that the loss was unascertainable? In consequence of that, why has the right hon. Gentleman not done what any first-class business firm would do?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will circulate his question in the Votes.
Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman definitely turns down this matter, which concerns the nation to the tune of £26,000,000 paid out in the course of the year?
New Members Sworn
Captain ROBERT GEE, for Borough of Woolwich (East Division).
JAMES WILSON, Esquire, Borough of Dudley.
Bill Presented
Performing Animals (Prohibition) Bill
"to prohibit the exhibition of performing animals and birds in places of public entertainment," presented by Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY; supported by Mr. Bottomley, Mr. William Graham, Captain Elliot, Lieut.-Colonel Walter Guinness, Dr. Murray, Mr. Inskip, Mr. Spoor, Colonel Penry Williams, Mr. Trevelyan Thomson, and Mr. Raper; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday, and to be printed. [Bill 35.]
Orders of the Day
Supply
Considered in Committee.
[Sir EDWIN CORNWALL in the Chair.]
Civil Services and Revenue Departments Supplementary Estimates, 1920–21
Class III
Royal Irish Constabulary
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,418,700, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Expenses of the Royal Irish Constabulary."
I beg to move that the Vote be reduced by £50,000.
4.0. P.M.
By putting the reduction at that large figure, which, in my opinion, is not as much as it ought to be, I wish it to be understood that on this Vote I am challenging the whole policy of the Government in reference to the management of the police. Although I shall have to speak with some candour and severity in regard to the action of the Government, I do not desire to say anything which might injure the prospects of an immediate and peaceful end to the disastrous struggle now going on in Ireland. I wish also clearly to define the position of my hon. Friends and myself in language as distinct as I can use. We speak for the non-combatants. We stand between the two parties in what a judge has called the competition of crime. I cannot do better than quote the memorable words of Henry Grattan in the Irish Parliament at the time of the rebellion of 1798 which was provoked as the rebellious movements of to-day have been provoked by the action of the Government of the day.
Hear, hear.
On the contrary, I would like him to reach an office for which he has many more gifts than for his present position. The higher he gets in the official hierarchy the better I shall be pleased. The further he gets from his present position the better I shall be pleased and the better for the sake of Ireland and for the sake of England. My contention is that his policy has been fatal to Ireland and fatal to England, and until that policy is entirely and immediately abandoned there is no hope either for England or for Ireland. I am going to take a rapid survey of the administration of the Government in Ireland, as I understand it at this moment, and I am going to bring a series of charges against the Government. First, I charge them with permitting their servants to be guilty of cold-blooded murder and with making no attempt to discover, much less to punish, many of the culprits. I will not go over in detail the long and lamentable list set forth the other day by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn). He gave full details, and I think the House was shocked by the fact that in his reply the Chief Secretary never attempted to give an answer to any of the cases except, I think, one, to which he made a passing allusion. I could add to the list, and the servants of the Crown are adding to the list themselves, though I am glad to admit, I might even say I am glad to boast, with less frequency than formerly. I charge the servants of the Crown with killing men, in the presence of fathers, mothers, wives, sisters and children, just as gallant officers on the other side have been killed in the presence of their wives. I charge the Government with having neither spared the young nor the old nor even sex. In Foynes, to give one or two passing illustrations, they shot dead an old man of 75; in Croke Park they shot down women and children; and in Galway they shot a pregnant woman. My next charge is that of recklessly firing on their prisoners. The hon. Member for Harrow (Mr. Mosley) elicited in an answer from the Chief Secretary that the number of prisoners who were killed in what are called attempts to escape amount to 49. I must say that there is a suspicious frequency in the report that prisoners were fired on in trying to escape.
Unarmed men.
Unarmed and helpless men.
Handcuffed men?
I do not know that they have shot down handcuffed men. These shootings of prisoners are, I expect, merely an excuse for prompt and immediate execution. There was a case in Dublin where three men were killed, it is said, close to Dublin Castle, on the ground that they were concerting in an attack on servants of the Crown, which has remained to me suspicious ever since. The horror of all this is increased by the fact that one of the men who was killed, according to reliable testimony, had no connection whatever with the Sinn Feiners. I come to my third indictment. It is almost the darkest chapter. It is centuries since torture was abandoned in this country. It was abandoned, not merely because it was cruel and inhuman, but because it was futile. It has been left to the present Government and the present generation to renew the weapon of torture, and the torture of men in all the helplessness of imprisonment. I will give, as a sample, the case of a boy of 18, as described in a letter by Lady Sykes, a woman whose high character puts the statement beyond possibility of doubt. She bears worthily the name of one of the finest, most generous, and most able Members of this House. She says: She goes on to say: America borrowed it from Russia as the Government have borrowed it from America. It means a succession of different and ingenious methods of torture by which men are compelled to give evidence, true or false, and it is as likely to be false as true. I remember it was such a scandal in America that a dramatist made it the subject of one of his plays. I hope it will be abolished in America, but my strong conviction from all the evidence and testimony that I get is that the whole system of extorting evidence by torture is being employed in the gaols of Ireland. If that be true and if we could get the knowledge of these things to the mind of Englishmen, most of whom would not run away, as hon. Gentlemen who support the Government do when an Irishman tries to bring these facts before the House, I do not believe that any Minister of the Government would be returned by any constituency to this House. My fourth count is that the agents of the Government have been abominable in their treatment of women. The Conole case which was given by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leith is well known and is set forth n the Report of Judge Bodkin. A woman pleaded on her knees with an officer for the life of her husband, but he was taken a short distance away, shot, and his charred remains were found next morning in his own house, which had been burned. There was a case in the Labour Report to which I would make a brief allusion. It is the story of a woman who was awakened by a noise at the front door. Her husband went out on to the landing; Government mind you, walking into the bedroom of a woman where she is lying with a babe at her side, shooting and killing her husband, and then going upstairs and trying to kill her brother. I must add two other facts in the story. This woman says: At this point the speaker was interrupted for a few moments by a Member bringing in the result of the poll at the Penistone election. ) I think I caught an observation about a Labour win at Penistone just now. I hope I heard accurately that one more man has been returned by the English people to this House to stand up for the cause of Ireland, and against these crimes. To show how difficult it is to get evidence of these cases, I may say that the very people who gave information to the Labour Commission were visited by Black and Tans immediately afterwards and threatened.
The fifth count of my indictment is concerned with the charges of looting. I need scarcely dwell upon them. The debate on General Crozier and the Trim case found the Government at last confessing to one charge attributed to them. We all know the facts of the Trim case, but after all it is only one of hundreds, if not of thousands. The Labour Commission Report speaks of cases where Black and Tans entered shops, obtained goods, and departed without paying. In open streets in the city of Cork men and women have been robbed of money and other articles. In one case a man was robbed of many pounds as well as his month's wages. Just a word about Trim. What happened there? Some of the incidents have not been told to this House, and here is one which I think is really worth giving. The day after the looting, these heroic men had a supper on the food and drink which they had stolen, and I have no doubt they drank to the health of the Chief Secretary. The second fact is this. It has been brought out, although it was not mentioned in the debate, in one of the letters of General Crozier that the men who exposed this looting were threatened with death and had to be removed by General Crozier to separate barracks to be saved from assault, if not death. Such a state of facts would be incredible at any other time and in other circumstances. Some of the men who exposed these detestable acts of looting have actually made their wills in expectation of being murdered by the men who did the looting.
May I ask the hon. Gentleman if their comrades are the only people by whom they are afraid of being murdered?
It may be, I do not know.
Are there no other assassins in Ireland?
Surely the Noble Lord is not taking up the position that he is in favour of one set of assassins and against another set. That would be most illogical. I am, as he knows, and I am sure he is, against assassination altogether. There is another observation I must make about the Trim incident. Is it not extraordinary that in the one case up to the present—except the case mentioned to-day by my hon. Friend (Mr. MacVeagh) at Newry—in the one case where the Commanding Officer brought the guilty looters to justice, he should have been degraded and dismissed, and the looters reinstated? I should not wonder indeed if those looters had another supper the next day to celebrate their triumph over General Crozier, their reinstatement and his dismissal.
My next count against the Government is that these attacks on men and women have been accompanied by deliberate acts of humiliation, the idea being not merely to terrorise Ireland, but to degrade her. The stories are innumerable. They describe brutal assaults, even where the victims are in a helpless position as prisoners. You are getting Germans prosecuted before their own tribunals, and one of your charges against them is their ill-treatment of prisoners. But what about your own servants in Ireland? The Labour party's Report tells us how in Cork auxiliaries snatched whips from the drivers of jaunting cars and slashed at passers by. Men have been forced to obey a crawling order, a singular resemblance to the Amritsar incident. They have been asked to foreswear their politics, their liberty and their creed, and the language used towards them has been the language of the slums—"Bloody swine," "Bloody bastards," that is the language in which these gentlemen address the Irish people. [An HON. MEMBER: "Ex-gentlemen!"] An hon. Member says "ex-gentlemen." I must say that the Chief Secretary very lightly dismisses charges like these. Recently h described a vulgar expression as a bit of light persiflage. I am glad the Ladies' Gallery is empty. I could not quote these words if there were any ladies present. Suppose a Black and Tan addressed him as a "Bloody Canadian swine," would the right hon. Gentleman regard that as a compliment, and as a piece of pleasant gentlemanly persiflage? Does he treat it as a joke. The Labuur party in their report complain of the insolent and provocative conduct of certain sections of the Crown forces. In at least one town the R.I.C.'s have carried Black and Tan flags in their motor lorries, glorying in the title which has spread fear throughout the land. Sometimes below it will be trailed the flag of Sinn Fein. We have witnessed, says the report, with feelings of shame the insolent swagger of individual Black and Tans in the streets of Irish towns. We have heard raucous voices, to the accompaniment of the rumble of a police lorry, carolling the R.I.C. song:
On a point of Order—
I would appeal to the Noble Lord. He is surely not serious—
I am entitled to raise a point of Order. I wish to ask whether it is in order to discuss the whole Irish policy of the Government, including executions. I submit that that does not arise on this Vote, which is confined to the administration of the Royal Irish Constabulary and its Auxiliary forces. Moreover the hon. Member made a most offensive interruption.
The Noble Lord cannot do two things at once. I propose to allow the hon. Member for the Scotland Division considerable latitude in regard to this Vote. There are several Votes to come before the Committee in connection with Ireland, and the understanding is that a general discussion shall take place on this Vote and more limited discussion on the others.
May I ask when that arrangement was arrived at? I have not heard of it.
At all events, I make the arrangement now.
On that point of Order. Do I understand that it will be in order to discuss the whole Irish policy on this Vote?
I have said that I propose to give considerable latitude in discussing this Vote. What that latitude is to be may be left to the Chair.
I would appeal to the Noble Lord—
There is no hon. Member less anxious to interrupt than myself. I was only seeking to get a ruling, with which, if I may respectfully say so, I entirely agree.
I trust that the Noble Lord will have a little patience. There are only a few Members from Ireland here.
As I was saying when the point of Order was raised by the Noble Lord, the attitude of the Prime Minister in those days has been justified by the fact that ever since then South Africa has not been one of the terrors, but one of the bulwarks of the Empire. These stories have been heard over and over again, and I must condemn the Government for never having dealt with this question in a proper spirit. Take the case of Canon Magner. Two men were killed by a lunatic. May I not ask what kind of force it must be when a lunatic is allowed to be at large in it? Is not that a danger to every peaceable citizen of the country? It was death to a poor old priest, 71 years of age, who had the good will of everybody, irrespective of religion. What has been done to the 12 men who stood calmly by while these two murders were committed? Where is the courage; where is the sense of justice? The Chief Secretary added a last item of horror to this murder when, the other day, he calmly declared that the relatives of the poor murdered boy—who lost, perhaps, their chief breadwinner—must go to the ratepayers for compensation. What has been the consistent policy of the Government with regard to these reprisals up to a week ago? The House is familiar with the language and methods of the Chief Secretary. The Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) repeated a statement which he saw and which I saw several months ago, in a responsible and respectable London paper, the "New Statesman," that, at a certain period last year, the Cabinet, or a portion of the Cabinet—an inner ring of the Cabinet or whatever it was—deliberately adopted the doctrine of the policy of reprisals. That is a terrible charge. It is a charge which, if untrue, ought to be repudiated immediately and indignantly. Was it repudiated? I will read an extract from a remarkable and dramatic scene the other day—I am sorry I was not present—between the hon. Member for Harrow (Mr. Mosley) and the Prime Minister:
"Mr. MOSLEY: May I ask the Prime Minister why he was not acquainted with events which took place nearly a fortnight before he went to Carnarvon on 3rd October and delivered a speech on the Irish situation which, according to this information, entirely misrepresented the facts of the case?
I do not accept that statement.
Reprisals
31. Mr. MOSLEY asked the Prime Minister whether between the months of June and October last, inclusive, any proposals for the initiation or continuance of the policy of reprisals in Ireland were laid before the Cabinet or any section of the Cabinet; whether such proposals were discussed; and whether any decision upon the subject was given or any form of sanction extended to such a policy?"
That is as clear a question as was ever put to a Minister.
"The PRIME MINISTER: The Irish policy of the Government was constantly under consideration by the Government during the time named in the question, and has been frequently explained in Debate in this House.
Mr. MOSLEY: Does the right hon. Gentleman definitely state that no official sanction whatsoever has ever been, extended to the policy of reprisals, at any rate, beyond that which has been supplied in his early speeches?
The PRIME MINISTER: Statements have been made in this House repeatedly by the Leader of the House, the Chief Secretary and myself as to the policy of the Government and by those we stand.
Mr. MOSLEY: May I ask for a definite answer from the right hon. Gentleman? Has any official sanction ever been extended to the policy of reprisals? That question has never been answered. Will he answer it now?
The PRIME MINISTER: I can add nothing to what I have said.
Mr. MOSLEY: Does the right hon. Gentleman admit official sanction?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd March, 1921, Cols. 1991–92, Vol. 138.]
No answer was given. That is a silence that gives consent. No fair interpreter of that incident between the hon. Member for Harrow and the Prime Minister would have any doubt as to the realities of the situation with regard to reprisals. Take the attitude of the right hon. Gentleman himself. His methods almost indicate that—to use an illustration which Sir William Harcourt used to use in my early Parliamentary days—he has, like the Italian painters, an earlier manner, a middle manner, and a later manner. Take the case of the Cork fires as a specimen of the methods of the Chief Secretary. I warned the Government a fortnight beforehand of what was likely to occur. I knew from the information I got, or sensed, as the Americans say, that a tragedy was in preparation. My warnings were unheeded. When the tragedy came, the first statement of the Chief Secretary was this:
"It is not known by whom the fires were started, but I can assure the House that no efforts will be spared to trace the perpetrators of these outrages. I protest most vigorously"—
I am sorry I cannot read it in the fine baritonic notes of the Chief Secretary,
"I protest most vigorously against the suggestion that there is any evidence that these fires were started by forces of the Crown. There is no evidence to that effect"—
all the streets of the city had been emptied at nine or ten o'clock on account of the Curfew, and the evidence was there for anyone who was not wilfully blind to see—
"and it is obvious to anyone that fires of this kind are the only argument which is now used against the Government's policy in Ireland."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th December, 1920, Col. 26, Vol. 136.]
Then, with all his elocutionary and oratorical emphasis, he stated that these fires must have been started, not by a servant of the Crown, but by other people with incendiary bombs; and
"no incendiary bombs were in the possession of the forces of the Crown in Ireland."
What does he now think of those statements of his? There is not one of them that has not been destroyed, even by his own inquiries. He accompanied this magnificent and wholesale denial of any responsibility for the crimes in Cork on the part of the public servants of the Crown by the statement that there was to be a complete and searching inquiry to bring the perpetrators to justice. That inquiry was conducted by General Stricland whose impartiality nobody would contest. I was one of the Members who got up and said that I would not contest the impartiality of that gallant officer The Chief Secretary, with eagerness in every tone of his voice, expressed his hope that he would be able to report to the House before it separated. The inquiry is held; the report is made; and the report is stifled—hidden away from the knowledge of the public. I think that five or seven men—I forget how many—who took part in the wholesale destruction of one of the three largest cities in Ireland have been brought to justice, and the Prime Minister actually announced the other day that seven of them had been dismissed! That is the attitude towards the perpetrators of this crime. I was present in New York on an occasion during the War when that great American statesman and orator Mr. Elihu Root was indicting, in a speech, the Prussian system; and, among all the counts of his indictment, the one that rang most in my ears was this, that by
"A British soldier wrote home to his mother to send him a feeding bottle with tubes and apparatus complete for a German baby in his billet who was in a poor way for lack of these things. The German mother burst into tears when she was given the bottle which meant the difference between life and death to the child."
Is there an Englishman who will not read a story like that with pride and gratitude to that Englishman who did honour not only to his nation but to the Army of which he was a soldier? I will quote a case from Ireland, when the unfortunate soldier is not intoxicated or is not encouraged in this horrible spirit of reprisals. I take it from an article by Miss Evelyn Sharp. It is a violent indictment of the policy of the Government in Ireland, yet she tells a story of one of the auxiliaries who, having raided and searched a house in which a young mother lay in bed with a new-born babe, made a collection among his men for her benefit.
There is not one of your soldiers, if they are the right kind and if you let them alone, and if you keep them from drink, who would not try to live up to these con-
"Through the whole of these months my right hon. Friend has impressed upon them"
—meaning the servants of the Crown in Ireland—
"that without discipline our whole policy must fail. Only two or three weeks ago General Tudor was present at a conference between the Prime Minister and myself, and we said to him, although we did not need to say it, because he knows it as well as any Member of this House"
—a statement which I somewhat contest—
"that breach of discipline among the police absolutely destroys it as a weapon for the purpose for which we are trying to employ it in Ireland. We said that there is only one thing that can make our policy fail in Ireland, and it is not the excesses of the murderers; it is not the screeching of people in this House or in the country. The one thing that will make it fail is that the police cannot secure adequate discipline in the force which is acting on our behalf."
That has been our case all along. Our case in denouncing reprisals has been that they were the very thing that stood in the way of the success of any effort to put down disorder in Ireland.
Where is this thing going to end? Is it going to be like a Corsican Vendetta that ends only with the death of the last member of the family? Look what took place in Cork the other day. Six young Irishmen shot in the morning, six Englishmen, just as young, possibly just as brave and just as much victims of policy with which they had little to do, murdered in the evening. It is a vicious circle. Reprisals bring murders, and murders bring reprisals. I say to my countrymen, no less than to the Government, what I have said over and over again, that force is no remedy. This policy is bringing disaster to Ireland. This policy is bringing disaster to England. It is bringing disaster to Ireland as its devastated cities, its murdered citizens, its raided houses, its weeping and sometimes insane women, its butchered babes testify. Neither side can succeed by this policy. It is bringing disaster to England, for to-day England is surrounding herself the whole world over with one great flaming circle of hatred and contempt. It has unsettled all your British position in Egypt, in India, and in the great Dominions. It is bringing on you the condemnation of every public man and every public journal in every country of the world. If you want to know what the world is thinking of your policy I invite you to look at this. Here is a half page of the "Manchester Guardian." It reproduces four cartoons from four papers in four different countries. In the first a Turk, with his bleeding scimitar, is addressing a Black and Tan in Ireland. "You are a better man than I am," he says. The other is from Berlin.
Even the Germans are shocked.
Another is from a Polish paper, and the last from a Swiss paper, the "Nebelspelter." "English Peace in Ireland," it is called—
5.0 P.M.
Surely these countries must be reconciled some day. I would say to the Irishman, "You cannot have a madder dream than to think the destruction of England would not bring with it the destruction of Ireland." I say to the most violent English Jingo that it is madness to think that Ireland can be destroyed without bringing the destruction of England as well. Let there be a change of heart on both sides. It is for you, the Government, to make the advance. It is now the opportunity for the right hon. Gentleman to deal with the question in a different spirit. I do not believe there are 10 per cent. of the Members of this House, in spite of their votes and their party interests, that do not long and yearn for the ending of this hideous and disastrous struggle. I believe the majority of the Irish people, even among the most extreme revolutionaries, would be glad to have a peace with honour. What does that mean? Give up haggling. Give up manœuvres, lay all your cards on the table. Rise to the height and the generosity and the statesmanship of your great nation. Cease to see the visions which still haunt the brain of the right hon. Gentleman. Tell the Irish people what you are ready and determined to give them in the shape of a generous measure of real self-government. Make your truce without conditions. Men do not go back to war after a truce. And when you have convinced the Irish people at once of your readiness to do the right thing by them—even the generous thing—generosity, as a great English statesman said, is often the highest quality of statesmanship—you will find them equally generous in co-operating with you in the work of peace. I pray this assembly to force on the Government if necessary the solution of this question; to let England and Ireland escape from the hideous welter of this blood vendetta, which weighs like a nightmare on all our hearts to-day, and bring us to the light of a liberated and reconciled Ireland.
I desire to associate myself with the Amendment which has just been moved by my hon. Friend. I can hardly expect to rise to the heights of eloquence which so distinguished an Irishman and Parliamentarian as my hon. Friend has given to the Committee this afternoon, but were I an Irishman, were my wife and my sons and daughters living in Ireland and undergoing the torture and the terrorism which women and boys and girls endure in Ireland at this time, I could hardly explain what my feelings would be like. It is very difficult to understand some of the rules of this House. We are discussing Estimates; they are called Estimates; they are given to us with very little explanation. Sometimes they seem like Estimates, at other times they seem like accounts due for payment. I would like the right hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Greenwood) to give us more information about the Estimates that we are now considering. Under the Vote we are discussing we are asked to give a Supplementary Estimate of £1,418,000 towards the upkeep of the Royal Irish Constabulary. This, I believe, will bring the expenditure this year up to more than £6,000,000. I think that is a very exorbitant sum to be spending over such a small area as Ireland, and over a population such as they have in that country.
What are the reasons for so great a force and for such an expenditure? May I first of all compare it with our English police. We have in this country a civilian police force which is respected by the mass of the population. Most of our population cannot understand why we should have a force of this character, costing this amount of money, in Ireland. Our police in England are there to carry out their duties in protecting property and persons. They are under the control of democratically elected bodies, town councils and county councils, and that has a great deal to do with the respect and the readiness of the population to come to the assistance of our English police when required. In Ireland we have an armed police force, who are engaged in suppressing political opinions. I admit that the Dublin Metropolitan Police are unarmed. They are immune from attack, or largely so, because they are unarmed. I believe it was at their own request that arms were given up by the Dublin Metropolitan Police, and since then not a single member of the force has lost his life. But the Royal Irish Constabulary are not under the control of local bodies. In 1918, when not a single policeman, or not more than one policeman lost his life, they were engaged in arresting 1,107 persons for political offences, and in suppressing 32 meetings and 12 newspapers. They have a chief of police who is in no way responsible to the people, and they are resented by 80 per cent. of the population of Ireland to-day. They are thwarted and attacked by the people they are supposed to protect, and I suppose that is one of the reasons why they cost this enormous sum. There is no doubt, whatever the Chief Secretary may say, they are out of hand. They are uncontrolled. Indiscipline reigns everywhere. If I may give one illustration, let me mention a proclamation which was issued on 6th December last by General Tudor, in which he said there were to be no more burnings of property, not even of notorious Sinn Feiners. On the 10th December, four days after that proclamation had been issued, Patrick Street, in Cork, the City Hall, and the Carnegie Library were burned to the ground. They are unable to protect property or anybody or anything. The police work proper that was done in Ireland last year, such as the prevention of drunkenness, the maintenance of order in public places, the arrest of thieves, and the restoration of missing property, was performed by republican police. The Government now say they have broken up this police, and what is the result?
Have the Royal Irish Constabulary maintained order? Did they prevent the burning of Cork City? Have they prevented the destruction of 42 creameries and stores? Could they, during the period from 1st January this year to 12th February, prevent the violent deaths of 240 unarmed civilians? Could they, even in the city of Belfast, where the Government might expect to be supported, maintain order and prevent 5,000 men being driven from work in the shipyards and 4,000 rendered homeless by organised mobs? They have not been able to do any of these things. As a matter of fact, are they not themselves charged with the responsibility of many of these crimes? If I may take the burning of Cork City. I was a member of the Labour Commission that went to Ireland in December. I spent several days in Cork along with my colleagues, and we were able to see what was happening, and what was likely to happen in that city. The people were being hounded about by these armed men. They were being flogged, they were being driven hither and thither. Looting was reported to us day after day. Homes were broken up. We saw the homes in Washington Street that had been broken up, and when we left Cork City we felt that something more serious was likely to happen. I say to the right hon. Gentleman that the ambush at Dillon's Cross had nothing whatever to do with the burning of Cork City. It was a well-conceived plan on the part of these men or someone in authority or supposed authority to destroy this street and this valuable property. It was undertaken after curfew hours, when no civilians are on the streets at all. Anyone who has spent a moment of time in Ireland would know there are no civilians knocking about at that time. The hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) and I went to Cork 24 hours after these burnings had taken place. We saw a number of people who had witnessed the fires, who had seen how the burnings in Patrick Street had been started. We were able to say in the report we issued that the fires had been started by the forces of the Crown, and the Government, we believe, were re- sponsible for those burnings. Millions of pounds worth of property was destroyed, hundreds of people were thrown out of work, and many homes were also destroyed. The Chief Secretary from his place gave the House to understand that there was a possibility that the report of the inquiry which he was carrying out in Cork would be published to the world. It has never been published, but I have here a report which he may have seen—another report in addition to our own—issued by the Labour party in Ireland, and giving the sworn testimony of scores of witnesses as to how Cork City was burnt to the ground. The only idea we have got from the Government was in the statement of the Prime Minister at the, opening of Parliament, but I think he said quite sufficient on that occasion to convince even supporters of the Government, who are not ready to accept statements from the Labour party, that Patrick Street and the City Hall and the Carnegie Library in Cork had been burned down by the forces of the Crown.
Take the co-operative creameries. Why should the Government seek to destroy valuable property which is producing the best food that can be produced? Is this a time when we have a plentiful supply of good food? Should we not encourage the production of food rather than seek the destruction of the means of producing it, as we are doing in Ireland? Since April last year something like 50 creameries have been burned down. The co-operative movement in Ireland, like the co-operative movement in this country, has been built up during the last 30 years, on the sacrifice of very humble and often very poor people. To-day we have 1,000 co-operative societies and 120,000 members of this movement in Ireland, and in 1918 the societies produced more than £10,000,000 worth of food. I should have thought that the Government would have tried to encourage this movement rather than have tried to destroy it in the manner their agents have been doing during the last few months. The future of Ireland and the future of the world, if it is to be of a satisfactory character, will be largely due to this co-operation.
The Chief Secretary said the other day that no fewer than 62 of the men for whom the Government now ask for the sum of money contained in this Estimate had been arrested for robbery or other offences between 1st January and 24th February. That is an admission as to what is happening in the forces of the Crown in Ireland. Would any Chief Constable of this country, if he were asked how many of his men had been arrested for robbery since 1st January, give an answer? I do not suppose he would; he would feel indignant at such a question being put to him. But if we were given the independent inquiry for which we ask we could give the Chief Secretary many similar instances to add to those of the 62 men which he has admitted. I readily admit that many of these men are placed in a position of extreme difficulty and temptation. I am not so anxious to put the blame on the men as on the Government, who are responsible. The Government should receive whatever blame is to be given in connection with the matter. But one might go on reciting incidents such as those into which the Labour Commission were able to inquire, and again I say to the right hon. Gentleman, the Chief Secretary, that we stand by that Report, we challenge its criticism, not simply by saying, "This is another bubble burst," but by analysis and by investigation. We have given cases of murder, and let me say that the Labour party are not supporters of murder or of assassination, by whomsoever it may be committed. Cases of burnings, lootings, and of terrorism are taking place all over Ireland. My hon. Friend (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) mentioned the terrorism that was imposed on women and children. I could give to the Committee numbers of cases of homes I visited where I saw mothers of children whose homes had been entered by men who pointed revolvers at the head of the mothers and threatened to shoot them if those mothers did not say where their sons were. Would a woman be a mother if she gave away her son? Would any mother give away her son? Would the mother of any hon. Member give her son away? If she did, should not that hon. Member lose all respect for her? The policy of the Government in Ireland is forcing young mothers to premature birth in many cases. In Ireland the policy of the Government is sowing the seed of St. Vitus' Dance in the children. If the policy of the Government is persisted in the Government are going on in the right lines to exterminate the Irish people.
On behalf of the Labour party I would say that, while we are aware of the facts of what is taking place in Ireland and while we may recite these instances of what is being carried on there through the policy of the Government, we would rather that the Chief Secretary would rise in his place to-day and announce a change of policy on the part of the Government. We would rather that he would announce that the Government were prepared to try and conciliate the Irish people, and were prepared to try and bring about peace between the two countries. Members of the Labour party are aware, and hon. Members of this House are aware, that in December of last year a great opportunity was given to the Government to bring about peace between Great Britain and Ireland. That opportunity was lost for the moment but we hope that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary and his colleagues will take their courage in their hands, that they will sink personalities, that they will stop murder and looting—because it is in their hands to stop murder in Ireland to-morrow if they choose to step in and do so—we hope that the Government will say that they will give to the Irish people or to the representatives of the Irish people an equal opportunity of meeting representatives of the Government to discuss what the terms of peace should be. I believe, honestly, that if the Government were to meet the representatives of Ireland on equal terms, to treat them as Britishers, as lovers of freedom and lovers of liberty, that peace could be restored between the two countries. If we are the lovers of justice that we claim to be, if we have a shred of Christianity in our nature, and if we are tired and weary of all this spilling of blood that has been going on for the last two years, if we want to show our humanity and if we desire an opportunity of restoring peace not only to Ireland and Britain but to the world, we shall seek means, even at this eleventh hour, to bring about peace between Ireland and England.
I profoundly regret that this opportunity has once again been used for a full dress Debate on Irish policy as a whole. We have had two or three such Debates already this Session and as many last Session, and, having sat silent throughout them, I have always felt that they have not contributed much to a further solution of the tragedy in Ireland. Each hon. Member states his own point of view about the question as a whole, dealing with broad general questions of policy. The Government give their answer, and the old party divisions, the old party controversies, as to how far the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) is or is not responsible for the present position, all those sort of questions are brought up, and the consequence is that we do not get any further. I had hoped, on this Vote dealing quite specifically with the Royal Irish Constabulary, the second Supplementary Estimate in one year, that we should have been able to explore the quite definite questions of administration without raising all those questions as to whether there should be a conference, as to whether a solution could be found by adopting this form of political advice or that, whether if by stopping this on one side that would be stopped on the other side, and vice versa. That sort of thing will not get us any further, and therefore I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) into his polemic against the action of the forces of the Crown, except only to remind him that, long before the forces of the Crown used any force whatever, cases committed by the murder gang were brought to our attention, cases of the shooting of the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary in the back, even in the churches in Ireland. I could go into that, but that would not be profitable to the consideration of peace in Ireland. What we have to consider is how we can in face of the realities of the situation do something by useful criticism to suggest a way of getting out of what looks, for the moment, like an impasse.
I have in my mind that, so long as you try and do with these armed insurgents in Ireland by using the police you will not succeed, and that to use the Royal Irish Constabulary to round up men armed with revolvers and rifles, men who use explosive bullets and who undoubtedly are fanatics, is to put the police in an impossible position, and is to put them to do what is essentially military work when their organisation and their discipline is not military. The experience of two hundred years has led this House year after year to pass an Army Annual Act, which aims at gradually embodying all the experience that we have learnt as to the rules and regulations and law which it is essential if military troops in the field are to be maintained under discipline. "The Manual of Military Law" is the product of thousands of brains; it has grown up during many years, and to my mind it is a work derived from the experience of the British soldier on actual service as to the character and discipline and the penalties and the organisation which it is absolutely necessary to have when you send bodies of men into the field, and more particularly when you send them—as you are sending them at this moment—out into the mountains of Cork and Kerry, out into the wild parts of the west of Ireland in lorries to face the foe, the first sight of which you get is probably just a cap in a bush. Any auxiliary division, any reinforcements of the forces of the Crown, should be military and should be subject to military law and military organisation, and that they should be under military control, and not under the control of the Royal Irish Constabulary. You are attempting to use the Royal Irish Constabulary in a way that will break the possibilities of your having the Royal Irish Constabulary as your civilian police force in Ireland in the future. I profoundly regret that the auxiliary division was even recruited. I profoundly regret that these men were not asked to volunteer, if you like the expression, in special battalions for service in the British Army in Ireland under military law, and I rise this afternoon to urge upon the Government the desirability of putting the armed forces of the Crown throughout Ireland—not the Dublin Metropolitan Police, because they are a civilian force, not armed—under Sir Neville Macready. Until every armed servant of the Crown is subject to the Army Annual Act, and to the Manual of Military Law, and subject to the ordinary rules and conditions of military service and military discipline, you will have the greatest possible difficulty, even with the best will in the world, in maintaining the discipline of the auxiliary division, while you raise the appalling difficulty that you have militarised your police.
I do not believe that you can, in view of the conditions as they are in Ireland to-day, really pretend that you have any longer a constitutional régime in the country. I believe that the idea that the Chief Secretary, any Chief Secretary, can be responsible for law and order in the three southern provinces in Ireland is at an end. It ought to be under the War Office, and the War Office ought to be responsible. Ever since the rebellion of 1916, the whole office of the Chief Secretary has been getting into more an impossible position than ever, because the Chief Secretary has to deal with an absolutely antiquated and out-of-date machine, namely, Dublin Castle. We owe half the troubles in Ireland to Dublin Castle. We shall never get law and order restored in Ireland, and never start clear, so long as we keep up the old police machinery and the board machinery of government through the organisation known as Dublin Castle. I am still a Unionist. I have never voted for a Home Rule Act, and I never shall. I always regret that we did not have a complete Union, and that there was ever allowed to be such a thing as a separate Irish Government. I should have liked to have seen the whole thing brought into one. The attempt to restore law and order in Ireland at this moment by utilising the machinery of Dublin Castle, with the Chief Secretary as its head, has absolutely broken down. You will never get out of this impasse until you have got rid of the Chief Secretary, any Chief Secretary—not the right hon. Gentleman in particular; until you have got rid of the office altogether. The first thing to do is to put all the armed forces of the Crown, all the agents of the Crown, under General Sir Neville Macready.
Who will make the excuses then?
Under a proper administration of martial law there would be no excuses, because martial law is the suspension of law. So long as the Chief Secretary is responsible for the acts of the military, you can have Debates in this House every other day, but you cannot carry through a guerilla warfare. Let us admit quite frankly that ever since the last General Election, Parliamentary Government, with the single and solitary exception of the régime of the hon. Member for Waterford, has ceased to operate in respect of the three southern provinces of Ireland. We might as well face that fact. So long as there are men in Ireland, armed and determined, who, according to the old phrase, are "levying war against the King," and when you can read accounts that "the troops moved round the flank," and all the rest of it, we must realise that there is a good deal of fighting going on between an organised insurgent army, call them what you will, and the forces of the Crown, and that the object of the insurgent army is to establish a separate Republic. There is no getting away from that Let us look these facts in the face. The question is whether that Irish Republican Army is going to win, or whether the forces of His Majesty King George are to win. It is a tragedy, and the only right thing to do, so long as that insurgent army is in the field, is armed and is fighting, is to concentrate and to fight it according to the laws and usages of war, subject to the conditions of the Manual of Military Law, and to put the forces of the Crown at the disposal of the responsible military officer. If you do not like Sir Neville Macready, get General Sir William Robertson, or General Lord Cavan, or whosoever has the confidence of the Government of the day.
I am quite certain that at the present moment we are in a hopelessly vicious circle. So long as it goes forth in Ireland, and to the world that the duty of dealing with the insurgents of the Republican Army is in the hands of the Black and Tans, these recruits of the Royal Irish Constabulary, you will have murders and more murders on either side, again and again. Let us have a clear-cut issue, the British Army against the Irish Republican Army, and when that is a quite clear issue, and there are only those two armed forces in the field, you may get a truce, you may be able to get a conference, and you may be able to come to terms. So long as the present régime, lasts, you will not get that, because for every one of the Irish Republic Army you are killing, and for every one you are driving into the hills, you are getting more to join them, just as on the other side you are having worse and worse things happen. In my own constituency, a young cadet, only 22 years of age, joined the Royal Irish Constabulary. He was married in my constituency on Boxing Day a few weeks ago, and he was shot in an ambush by the Irish Republican Army only three weeks later. Think what that means; think what a tragedy that means. Here is a young English boy, who joins the Royal Irish Constabulary, and who is foully killed, by, I believe, an expanding bullet, in an ambush. Think of the result on the relations between England and Ireland when such things occur. Think of the feelings of that boy's relations in my constituency, and their feelings towards Ireland. It is an awful tragedly. Do not ask Englishmen to enlist in the Royal Irish Constabulary; keep it Irish. Ask English men only-to enlist in the British Army. I make one last final appeal to the Government, and that is that if they want to get out of this vicious circle of murder and so-called reprisals and the suspicion that has been created about looting, indiscipline, etc., there is only one thing to do, and that is for the Chief Secretary to efface himself, and for Dublin Castle to efface itself, and to put the whole command of the armed forces of the Crown in Ireland under one authority only, and that the Commander-in-Chief.
My hon. Friend who has just sat down says it is a gross waste of money, so far as law and order is concerned, to spend money on the auxiliary force. I heartily agree with him, but when he went on to say that we are revolving in a vicious circle, I wondered how he would have us get out of the vicious circle. It seems to me that he himself was revolving in a vicious circle of military force. The only suggestion that he could make was that the Army should be opposed to the Irish people.
No. I must protest against that. I thought I made it quite clear that I was not bringing the Irish people in at all. I was speaking of the armed insurgents, who are fighting the Crown, and I said that I thought the most merciful way of getting a truce, and getting on to a political and civil level again, was for there to be a clear-cut issue between the Irish Republican Army and the British Army.
I am sorry if I have done my hon. Friend an injustice. It would be very desirable that the British Army should oppose the Sinn Fein army if it is possible to make any difference between the Sinn Fein army and the Irish people. I rise to oppose this Vote with all the strength in my power. I believe that the money for which we are asked in this Supplementary Estimate is a gross waste, in fact I hold that wastefulness is written over the whole of the Government's Irish policy. We have been wasting our money, and we have been wasting the lives and property of the Irish people, and have been frittering away our honour and our reputation as a governing and sovereign people. What have we got for all these murders, for pulling people out of their beds and killing them? Nothing but disgrace and shame and defeat. The more you try to terrorise the Irish people, the more rebels you create, and the more you burn down their homes the more people do you send to the hills. I do not want to be offensive, but I cannot see that your auxiliary police have any connection with law and order. They are not engaged in maintaining law and order, but are merely being used as instruments in the Prime Minister's policy of terrorising the Irish people into submission, and into the acceptance of the Government of Ireland Act. The Government of Ireland Act is not framed according to the interests of the Irish people. It is not framed in order to meet the wishes of the Irish people, but it is framed entirely to keep the Prime Minister in office. Matthew Arnold said that the great fault of the English people in trying to govern the Irish people was that they satisfied themselves of a conventional account of things, and then imagined that the Irish people would be satisfied with it. That is the fault of the Prime Minister. He has satisfied himself that the Government of Ireland Act satisfies his interests in maintaining him in office—it enables him to get the support of the Lord Privy Seal and the right hon. Member for Duncairn—and then he thinks that the Irish people have to be satisfied with it. That is the cause of the whole of this trouble. The Irish people, far from being satisfied, think it is an organised hypocrisy and a measure to separate them and to defeat their national aspiration.
I cannot help thinking, as I read my paper or listen to the Debates in this House, that the great tragedy of the whole situation is the needless character of these terrible happenings in Ireland, and I believe that if the Government of this country would only base their policy on the old tradition of the British people in the principles which underlie this great Empire we need never have waded through all this bloodshed in Ireland, and I believe even now, if my hon. Friends opposite would only do justice to themselves and if this House of Commons would only do justice to itself, it could put a stop to these murders and outrages. I believe that if the House of Commons, instead of tamely submitting to a policy which is drawing us down and down into deeper disgrace to its honour, would only put its foot down and say that the Government shall no longer compete with disorder in Ireland, but shall meet the representatives of the Irish people in conference, we shall at once pass into a better and more peaceful atmosphere. There is no doubt that the people are longing for peace, both in this country and in Ireland.
In this country the present condition of things in Ireland is offending more and more every day against that which Edmund Burke called the ancient and ingrained pride, integrity and kindly nature of the British people. In Ireland who can doubt that the people of Ireland are longing to escape the terror that is oppressing them now, and I do honestly believe that the obstacles to a settlement have been greatly exaggerated. The Prime Minister says that he never will accept a settlement which will bring on an Irish Republic. No more could any of us accept such a settlement, but is it really certain that the Irish people themselves want to be separated and want a Republic? I believe that the Irish people are deeply loyal in their hearts to the connection with the Crown, and that if the Government will really cease to stand between the Irish people and a settlement Ireland would be a most loyal part of the Empire. I am strengthened in this view by the announcements of the Irish leaders themselves. They have said most categorically and most emphatically that all they ask for is what the Dominions have got. All they ask for is what South Africa, Canada and Australia have got, and what I understand we propose to give to the Indians and the Egyptians, and it will take a great deal to persuade me that liberty and self-government, which have succeeded in uniting the British Empire, will fail in Ireland, and that instead of having an enemy on our flank, we could not, if we give self-government, rely on the valued friendship of those at our side.
The Prime Minister was asked last week whether he would not enter into negotiations with Irish representatives. He was willing to do so at any moment, but at the same time he laid down conditions which are fatal to any conference. There is no use asking the Irish people to leave out of consideration those who, they consider, have risked most on their behalf. As that avenue of approach is blocked, we must seek another. Personally I have never had much faith in proposals for negotiations with the representatives of the Irish people. To my mind it is not the duty of the Prime Minister to ask people to come forward who can deliver the goods, as he says. It is for the Prime Minister himself to deliver the goods. It is for the Prime Minister to come forward and offer a statesmanlike solution. I adhere to the proposals of the Labour party. I think that their suggestion for the settlement of the Irish problem is the most hopeful one. That is to say that a constituent assembly should be allowed to settle what form the Irish Constitution should take.
I am sure that the hon. Member will see that that is rather far from the Police Vote.
With all respect, I submit that if we object to the Police Vote it is useless to object unless we put forward some reasonable alternative.
You cannot discuss the details of whether the Labour party's proposal is reasonable, or some other man's is reasonable, on the Police Vote.
Before you took the Chair, another point of order was raised by the Noble Lord opposite (Earl Winterton), and Sir Edwin Cornwall gave it as his decision that, in order to meet the general convenience of the Committee, the most effective method of dealing with these Estimates in the main would be for hon. Members to be permitted to travel over the whole matter with all its ramifications.
I was not here when that ruling was given, but I am quite sure that the Chairman never suggested that we could go in detail into the question of a constitution for Ireland. I am sure that the hon. Member himself will agree that we cannot go into details of that kind. I have allowed the hon. Member to discuss the question very widely, but questions of details, such as those to which he is referring, do not arise on this Vote.
I will bow to your ruling and will not discuss detail, but I might be allowed to say that the one benefit which can be derived from allowing the Irish people the responsibility of settling this question, as an alternative to the policy of military force, is that if a constituent assembly were allowed to meet, and if full responsibility were thrown upon the Irish people, there might be a chance of the unhappy divisions which now exist being removed. What we want in Ireland as an alternative to military force is to exorcise the evil influence of the extremists on both sides, Sinn Feiners and the Auxiliary Police. The only hope of peace in Ireland is to make moderate opinion articulate, and to allow it an opportunity of asserting itself. Do not the events of the present and of the past prove that no section of the Irish people can prosper without the assistance and co-operation of the others? Do not events now prove that even a Parliament in Belfast will not function unless it has the assistance and co-operation of the people of the South, and may I not suggest that it is possible that in the end people in the North and in the South, if responsibility was thrown upon them, might come to some working plan whereby they would be able to settle some common constitution for their country?
One thing certain is that a continuance of the present policy of the Government spells disaster and ruin and shame. It will bring more and more dishonour on this country. Personally, I am most unwilling to have left my own friends on the other side of the House, but I could not find it in my heart to tolerate the present policy of the Government. It is antagonistic to everything which I honour and feel right. You have erected a negation of God into a principle of the Government. That is the policy of the Government of the present day. As the Archbishop of Canterbury said, you cannot cast out Beelzebub by Beelzebub or devils by devils. Your policy is bankrupt, and there is nothing left for you but, in the words of Grattan
The Noble Lord who has just sat down in his concluding remarks referred to those whom he described as his old friends on these Benches. I can assure my Noble Friend, that whenever he speaks in this House, I should not cease to describe him so, that whenever he speaks in this House whether hon. Members, wherever they may sit, agree with him or not, there is no hon. Member in this House who can be under any misapprehension as to the transparent honesty of conviction with which every one of his utterances is instinct, and if I do not follow my Noble Friend in detail in the line of thought which he pursued, he will acquit me of discourtesy. It could only be because I am inclined to agree with the observation that was made by my hon. and gallant Friend who spoke a few moments ago, that it is open to some doubt whether the cause of Irish peace at this juncture is best served by a general full dress de bate on the broadest questions of Irish policy on which my Noble Friend has just entered. I would, however, if I might, express one regret at an observation that fell from him, and with that observation I couple one that fell from my hon. Friend the Member for Rothwell (Mr. Lunn).
6.0 P.M.
I say, with great respect to my Noble Friend, that it does not in my judgment advance the cause of peace to suggest—what I do not think he would be prepared seriously to maintain—that the whole explanation of the present Irish tragedy is that the Irish are sacrificed to keep the Prime Minister in office, and in the same way the hon. Member for Rothwell will admit, I think, that he is guilty of some exaggeration when he suggests that it was the desire of the Government to exterminate the Irish people. I have a personal interest in the hon. Member for Rothwell, because he happens to be my Member, and should he continue to say these things I shall not find it possible to vote for him at the next election. Quite seriously, it is one of the ironies of the situation that, these things apart, there really is no disagreement in principle, I believe, between hon. Members in all parts of the House as to the objects which they wish to attain. The Noble Lord opposite and those with whom he now acts have no monopoly of the desire to see an end of bloodshed, and those with whom I habitually act are prepared to admit that they have no monopoly of the desire to see a restoration of what is commonly known as law and order in Ireland. For that reason I suggest to my hon. Friends that there is great danger of misunderstanding in the too free use of general terms either of criticism or of approval. There really is, or there has been, a considerable danger on both sides of hon. Members drifting into what I might describe as false syllogism. There has been a certain tendency on one side to say that Sinn Fein is absolutely wrong and that as the Black and Tans are the antithesis of Sinn Fein, therefore the Black and Tans are absolutely right. There has been a danger of that false syllogism on our side, and there has been no less a danger on the other side to fall into equal error. I believe that hon. Members opposite would be ready to agree in the abstract as to the duty lying upon the Government of discharging their duties as the custodians of the law and order which is the basis on which all society rests. But, as the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) has often said, there is something more to be found in the matter than that where you are concerned with murder. I maintain that hon. Gentlemen in all parts of the House are, in the abstract, as much interested in endeavouring to see law and order restored as we are. It is because that general duty is so fundamentally laid on the Government, and because no authority can hope to discharge a moral duty unless it can claim respect, that I think it has been so disastrous that the methods of the Government should have entailed upon some of its' agents suspicion and mistrust in the last few months.
Cæsar's wife would lose all power of moral condemnation if she fell under suspicion. No less, I think the Government cannot hope to secure the moral commendation of the world, which in the end is to tell in this matter, if they are themselves in any way suspected of any sort of sympathy with the outrages on law which are being perpetrated. It is very tempting and easy for Members oil this side of the House to preserve silence. Criticism is a very easy thing if you have not to do the job yourself. I have felt, and I still feel, that the Chief Secretary, whatever we may think of him personally or as an official, has had so difficult a task, and, whether right or wrong, has displayed such courage in it personally, that he is entitled to every sympathy. Everyone has sympathised because of the danger and the provocation by which our forces have been faced. We have also had to face for six months a great conflict of evidence. Therefore the ordinary man during the past month has been driven to a position of what I might call suspended judgment with regard to reprisals. When the first charges of reprisals were made I refused to believe them, because the evidence was conflicting, and because I chose to give the benefit of the doubt to our own servants. It was in that attitude of mind that many of us voted for the Restoration of Order Bill and took other action about the same time. But I do not hesitate to say now that the cumulative effect of the happenings of the last few months makes that intellectual attitude impossible to maintain. I need not go back to the reasons for that conclusion, because I imagine that they are shared by most Members of the House.
It is, therefore, quite idle to deny, and indeed I do not think the Government do deny, that making whatever allowance you like, there have been actions and events and happenings in Ireland by a section of the Crown Forces of which every Englishman must be heartily ashamed. There can be no doubt about that. With regard to what my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) said—he speaks with great authority on that matter—I would merely remind the House what I think is in fairness to the Government to be remembered with regard to the origin of the reprisal trouble, that I have no doubt it is substantially true that when the troubles began the Irish Constabulary was an instrument that could not any longer be counted on, that the Army was composed of boys, and that the Government had no instrument to deal with admitted disorder. That in fairness ought to be remembered. I have said that I do not think the Government would any longer deny that there have been events which were regretted. I happened last year to hear my right hon. Friend the leader of the Unionist party make a speech at Leeds, where he said as much as that. He went on to say that the one thing to make the Government policy fail would be that there should be indiscipline among any section of Government forces, and he added for that reason the Government had insisted, were insisting, and would insist upon the restoration of discipline where it had broken down. Under that head I will only emphasise and urge, as a means of securing greater facilities for the restoration of discipline, that re-organisation of administration under a single military head to which my hon. Friend drew the attention of the Committee. I would go one step further and say that if there is one thing which would make the Government policy fail—I am not discussing the merits or demerits of the policy—and make it fail more quickly than indiscipline, it is that the Government, or those who support the Government, should be thought to discriminate in their condemnation of murder and lawlessness. There is no good denying the fact that among great classes of opinion, not only Labour opinion or Liberal opinion, but among great classes of Unionist opinion in the country to-day, that suspicion undoubtedly exists—that the Government have one law for murder committed by Sinn Fein and another law for murder committed by their own forces.
I venture to say to my right hon. Friend, and I say it with all loyalty to him and the Government, that I believe that feeling is due more than anything else to one thing, and that is the refusal of the Government to publish the results of their own inquiries. I recognise, and hope and believe nearly everyone in the House will recognise, the extreme difficulty of holding inquiries in public. Personally, I should not be disposed to criticise him for that, nor for not publishing the evidence. The condition in which Ireland is makes each of those two things open to obvious and serious objection. But I cannot, and I refuse, to believe that any such reasons preclude the publication of the reports themselves. I cannot begin to understand why that is not done. I cannot conceal from myself that it seems, to put it on its lowest ground, a grave error of political judgment. The Englishman is prepared to give great confidence to those who are placed in authority over him, if he is convinced that they are telling him the truth; but the Englishman is at once suspicious if he thinks that he detects in what he is told by those in authority any kind of evasion or what I believe the theologians call the minimum of truth. My last word to my right hon. Friend and the Government is that, as he is emphatic in endeavouring on all occasions to tell the people of this country what in his judgment they are up against in Ireland, let him with no less conviction or transparency of honesty also say where the facts tell against his servants or tell for them. Let him give them the facts by which from time to time his executive action in Ireland is either hampered or assisted.
I am bound to say of this Debate that it is one of the most helpful Debates on Ireland that I have ever listened to since I have had the honour to be a Member of Parliament. I believe everyone is fully impressed with the grave position in Ireland to-day. There is no cleavage among parties or groups in the House in the whole-hearted desire to bring to an end as rapidly as possible the welter of outrage that now afflicts a considerable portion of Ireland. Everybody has made a plea for peace. Nobody feels that need more profoundly than I do, and nobody would do more or go further in the interests of a permanent peace based on good will than the present Chief Secretary for Ireland. I should have thought that that would have been obvious. May I say that I appreciate the restraint in language and criticism which has been used by speakers in dealing with myself as Chief Secretary. I am sure those who used that restraint realise the difficulties that every Member who ever held the office of Chief Secretary is burdened with, and the particular difficulties that have come my way.
May I first deal with what is really the essential matter before the Committee, namely, the Estimate itself, and this in answer particularly to the hon. Member for Rothwell (Mr. Lunn). I am asking the Committee to vote £1,418,700 as a Supplementary Estimate, due to an in crease in the personnel of the Royal Irish Constabulary, a permanent force, and the Auxiliary Division and the Special Constabulary, which are temporary forces. An increase of personnel means a consequential increase in pay, allowances, clothing, arms, ammunition, transport, and so on. It is because of the present difficulties in Ireland that I am compelled to come down here now, in the month of March, and ask for an increased Vote as a Supplementary Estimate over that which I obtained from the House in July of last year. The Paper itself explains in considerable detail the Votes under the various sub-heads that I am asking the Committee to grant, but there is one Vote that I would particularly call attention to, although it is the smallest item under this Vote. It is in reference to compensation for damage or injuries, and it is put down at £1,200. One of the saddest things in the Irish tragedy to-day is this, that innocent persons suffer personally and in property because of the state of affairs in a considerable part of Ireland. I have no funds out of which I can pay compensation to these innocent persons, but I have ventured to make payment to a very small extent, and I wish I had the power to make larger payments where the cases are notoriously hard and where the sufferers are people of small means. If the House is willing to grant sums of money for the payment of compensation to innocent persons, no one would be happier to pay that compensation on a proper assessment than the Chief Secretary, but as it stands now I have not got the power.
Will you ask the House for the power?
I cannot ask for more than I am asking to-day. If I had the power the criticism on me for not paying it would be a fair one, but I have not the power, nor has the House granted the money. There are many phases of this compensation question that will have to be considered sooner or later, but one phase is that these poor persons who are innocent ought to, and if I had the power would, be compensated as soon as possible.
If it is possible to ask for £1,200, why is it not possible to ask for more adequate sums?
I can tell the hon. Member that. It is because I have ventured to make certain small payments myself, but I dare not venture, without the consent of the House, to make larger payments.
Why not ask for larger powers?
More than that, this is a Supplementary Estimate. The proper occasion on which to raise the question of compensation to any large amount is when the main Estimates come on in April or May. I want to make that point clear, because I know many hon. Members feel that, whatever the rights or wrongs of the matter in this House, the sufferings of innocent persons should be minimised as far as possible. I can make no promise that damage done as an act of war—
Is it war in Ireland?
There is a state of actual rebellion in a portion of Ireland, and in regard to damage done in those or other parts as a consequence of the insurrection, I can hold out no hope, certainly at this stage or at all, that persons can be compensated other than as the law now provides, and has for a long time provided, in Ireland, namely, by assessment on the local rates. That leaves out of account a number of cases which I think the House may very fairly pay, and when the day of reckoning comes no doubt would generously pay. There is one case brought before the House frequently—and the hon. Member for the Scotland Division (Mr. O'Connor) brought it up again to-day—the case of Mrs. Quinn, in Galway. I ventured to pay £300 to her husband, not in any sense as compensation, but it was as much as I could pay, to show my sympathy and the sympathy of the Government in the bereavement of his wife, a bereavement which was entirely an accident, but which was undoubtedly caused by certain policemen. I only did that as an outstanding case which I think demanded immediate attention.
Has this compensation been paid only to people who have not got a claim against the rates?
Yes, that is so. The claim against the rates depends upon malice, and the County Court Judge must find the claimant has suffered from malice. Having suffered from malice, he can then assess the damage. In this particular case, of course, there was no malice involved; it was a pure accident.
It was only malice on the other side.
The small amount I am asking the Committee to grant is in reference to cases in which there is no malice.
Will the right hon. Gentleman deal with cases like that of Canon Magner and young Crowley before he leaves the subject?
That is an entirely different case. No Government is responsible for the felonious acts of its agents. That is to say, if an ordinary policeman of the Dublin Metropolitan Police commits a crime, the authority of that policeman is not responsible for the damage resulting from the crime.
But the local authority is responsible for individuals committing a crime.
I think I have stated the law. It is a fundamental principle. It is therefore not possible for the Government to intervene and to compensate people unless this House over rules the law as it stands and compensates these people who suffer from the felonious acts of the agents of the Government.
In uniform.
Hon. Members will see how difficult it is to proceed. My hon. Friend the Member for the Scotland Division, who speaks with a knowledge of Ireland unequalled by anybody else in the House, complained, and rightly complained, of certain outrages by certain forces of the Crown—rightly complained, I say, if the evidence is conclusive that the outrages were committed by them. If the evidence is conclusive, all I can say is, as I have said again and again from this place, that nobody condemns these outrages more than I do. Nobody suffers from them more than the Government. I wish it were possible to render impossible one single breach of the severest discipline in any unit of the forces in Ireland.
You have your remedy—disband the Black and Tans.
I am glad of the testimony of the hon. Member for the Scotland Division that the number of these is decreasing. I think that is a sign and token of the determination of the Government to insist upon a sterner code of discipline for their forces in Ireland. I can assure him and the Committee that no act is ever brought to my notice that is not probed to the bottom. No disciplinary measure is too severe to be taken. There are a number of men now under the most serious charges, and if I have declined to discuss the matter here, it is because the men are on trial, three of them for their lives, and it is not right that they should be prejudiced in their trial for the most serious offences, or, indeed, for minor offences, by any discussion in this House.
May I at once come to a speech made by the hon. and gallant Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore), and reinforced by the hon. Member for Ripon (Mr. E. Wood), two speeches that bring fresh minds to bear upon one of the vital questions of administration in Ireland to-day—and we are dealing with administration in Ireland. Both these hon. Members put the issue very simply. It is this. There is at the moment a rebellion in Ireland, a conflict between what is called the Irish Republican Army, armed, equipped, and desperate, and the British forces in Ireland. That is the issue. Both these hon. Gentlemen advocate the placing of all the forces in Ireland under the Commander-in-Chief; in other words, they advise the imposition of martial law throughout Ireland.
Not necessarily.
Are you prepared to give the Sinn Fein—[ Interruption. ]
Go outside.
Are you prepared to treat the rebels in the same way as in Africa?
I understood that both these hon. Members advocated martial law as an essential consequence of what they advocate. They advocate putting all the forces under the Commander-in-Chief.
All the armed forces; no civilian forces.
Are you prepared to give the same offer and the same rights—[ Interruption. ]
I am sure the hon. Member will bear with me while I am speaking.
Certainly, but not with these other people.
I hope the hon. Member will listen to me, at any rate; I am doing my best.
Right you are, Sir.
These hon. Members want me to put all the armed forces under the Commander-in-Chief in order the more effectively to combat the rebellion in the field. I am bound to say that the difficulties are very numerous. I would inform both hon. Gentlemen that the Royal Irish Constabulary has always been historically an armed and a semi-military force, and it was the force that in the early ages and in the late ages was most effective in quelling the uprising of those years. Its difficulties are greater now than ever they were before, for many reasons I need not go into now, but I can assure both those hon. Gentlemen that their suggestions will not only receive my consideration but the consideration of the Cabinet. If I can persuade myself, or the Government is convinced, that by any change in administrative control you can secure a higher standard of discipline, or more effectively defeat the conspiracy which is being urged against us, I for one will not hesitate for a moment, in the words of one hon. Gentleman, to efface myself, if that be necessary, and leave the control of the armed forces of Ireland entirely to the Commander-in-Chief in Ireland. It is not, however, a question so easy and so simple as it sounds, but it is put forward by two hon. Gentlemen in all seriousness, and will receive the most earnest consideration.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question asked by the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore), which was, whether the Auxiliary Division should not be disbanded, and the matter left in the hands of the Regulars? I asked this question myself previously.
I cannot promise to disband the Auxiliary Force.
There will be plenty of work for them in England when wages are reduced 25 per cent.
I am asking the Committee to grant me a Vote for the Auxiliary Force. I would like the Committee to realise that for three months after I went to Ireland I did my best, by every means in my power, to bring about a settlement of this Irish question without additional support. Arrests ceased, deportees and internees were all released, hunger strikers were let out. The Royal Irish Constabulary rapidly decreased in numbers. I was compelled in July either to allow that Force to pass out of existence and give up Ireland, or to recruit in England. I chose the method of recruiting in England, both for the regular Royal Irish Constabulary and this Auxiliary Division. No one is more aware that I am, of breaches of discipline in these forces, but, on the whole, I maintain that the discipline has been good and that the services rendered by these ex-officers and ex-service men command the respect and appreciation of this House and country. They came in response to the, call to help the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Government in Ireland, and I must confess that the criticism urged against some gallant officers and men is not deserved, and does not show the appreciation of the inherent difficulties of the case that I think it ought.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to answer my question, which is, whether he will consider the disbandment of this irregular force of auxiliaries of the Royal Irish Constabulary?
As the hon. and gallant Gentleman has dragged me into this, although rather unwilling perhaps, may I be allowed to explain? I asked, in the first place, whether it would not be possible to put all these forces under the manual of military law and under the Army Annual Act?
I must point out to the Committee that occasional interruptions help debate, but frequent interruptions destroy it. I hope we will not have too frequent interruptions.
These questions are vital and relevant to the Estimate. I quite appreciate what the hon. Member for Stafford said, and because of the difficulties of bringing the police force under these Acts, I must ask him to let me reserve my judgment on the whole matter. A policeman does not enlist as a soldier. He is employed on a monthly or weekly engagement, and can resign at will.
And has pension rights.
Auxiliaries have no pension rights.
Policemen have.
Auxiliaries have no pension rights; they are temporarily recruited.
To murder by the hour, day or job.
It is true that the regular Royal Irish Constabulary, have pension rights, and they are engaged on a contract. One of the problems facing one in trying to consider the hon. Gentleman's suggestion is the position of these men, who join on a contract, in reference to a military régime.
Kill at sight! [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]
I must ask the hon. Gentleman not to interrupt constantly.
Ask the hon. Gentlemen at the back. [HON. MEMBERS: "Name."]
I would like to refer to what I consider fundamental in these matters, namely, some remarks made by the hon. Member for Ripon (Mr. E. Wood) as to the position of the Government in dealing with this Irish problem. I agree with him that in the administration in Ireland, no matter what the provocation, no matter what the difficulties, no matter what the effect, the Members of the Government should not condone or tolerate any breach of discipline. I can assure the hon. Gentleman I have done my best to attain this standard, which has always been the standard in British administration, but if he would realise the difficulties in Ireland he would have sympathy with these men. Being human, although in uniform, they sometimes do break down, and do things that we can never condone, we cannot tolerate and we do, and will, punish. But in the eyes of the world, the standard of the British Government must remain what it has always been, the highest possible even under the most extraordinary and difficult position that now exists in certain parts of Ireland. If the Committee will allow me to speak personally, I may say that by a personal appeal, by personal address, by orders personally drafted, I have endeavoured to maintain the standard of discipline that will meet the desire of this honourable House.
The "Weekly Summary."
The Committee will agree with me, and the hon. Member for the Scotland Division will admit, there is a great improvement in the force to-day. I have said before, and will say again, that no one can suffer more from these breaches than the Government; no one can suffer more than the force itself. Without the sternest discipline it can never command that respect of the people in Ireland which, to my mind, is essential for the better government of that country. If there are any particular questions on the Estimates hon. Members wish to raise, my right hon. Friend the Attorney-General or myself will answer them, but, as the Debate has been general, I shall conclude my remarks now by some general statement. The position in Ireland today is a serious position. In certain counties in the south and west there is a state of actual rebellion, as found by the Court of King's Bench, sitting in Dublin. Where there is a peaceful county, it is part of the campaign of the Irish Republican Army to send to that county organised bands to stir up trouble, to murder a policeman or some civilian, and at once throw the county in a ferment. It is also true that there is an organised propaganda working in this country and throughout the world, endeavouring to show that the British Government is responsible for the present disaffected and rebellious state of Ireland. That to me, of course, is the very negation of the facts of the case. I am glad to say that amidst all this orgy of outrages there are many favourable signs. It is impossible for the Committee to know the number of bishops and priests of the Roman Catholic Church and all other denominations who, at great risk, do their best to keep a particular parish or district from trouble. Loyal and patriotic people throughout Ireland try to give evidence before the military tribunals, and many have lost their lives because of it. But it does show a real awakening of the Irish people and a realisation of the fact that this warfare cannot lead to the establishment of an independent Ireland or to a betterment of good feeling between the United Kingdom and Ireland. From an administrative point of view, the forces in Ireland to-day are compelled to do their best to re-establish peace and maintain order. In that struggle many, many lives have been lost, and I am afraid, if this goes on, many more lives will be lost. To-day one reads in the papers of the death of a very gallant officer, General Gumming, a man who served his country well in the War, and was shot dead in an ambush by members of the Irish Republican Army—not shot dead in conflict, but on his way to preside at a military tribunal sitting at Mallow to inquire into the death of Mrs. King and certain railwaymen in connection with the incident there. I am afraid he lost his life because he was the head of the military tribunal.
Our secretary lost his life.
I am sorry. Some of the most desperate efforts against the lives of servants of the Crown are against those who are endeavouring in these troublous times in Ireland to adjudicate fairly. I am often told that my manner is too belligerent. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]
That was not the word we used.
King Billy redivivus.
I wish the hon. Member would realise that we are dealing with a serious subject. I wish to point out that there is nothing to stop the members of the Dail Eireann who are Members of this House taking their seats here, and advocating their cause.
Will they take the Oath of Allegiance?
All of us find it easy to take the Oath of Allegiance, and there is nothing to stop these members of the Dail Eireann meeting in Ireland, with the exception of certain members we could indite for murder.
Same as yourself.
I should like to ask you, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, how long this Committee is to submit to the insults, the bullying, and the kind of ribald and constant interruptions of the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J Jones).
The hon. Member for Silvertown has not been the only interrupter. If other hon. Members would cease interrupting, I should find it easier to deal with the hon. Member for Silvertown.
On a point of Order. May I ask you, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, kindly to discriminate between the interruptions made by my hon. Friend Mr. Ormsby-Gore, who has elucidated something in the Debate, and the kind of interruptions we have had from the hon. Member for Silvertown?
That is what I am very anxious about.
The hon. Member for Silvertown deliberately charged the Chief Secretary with murder. Is he going to be called upon to withdraw that charge?
Accusations of murder have been thrown at these benches again and again, and therefore I hope you will not be influenced by that.
Let us get to business.
The interruption of the hon. Member for Silvertown was disorderly, but I did not understand him to make such a serious charge as that.
Hon. Members opposite do not like it themselves.
The issue in Ireland is too serious to be treated as being anything other than the gravest problem that now confronts this House and the British Empire. I have endeavoured in all my speeches to speak with a becoming gravity. I have invited hon. Members to assist the Government and myself in trying to find a solution. There is a general desire for peace, not only in this House, but in Ireland. The difficulty in Ireland is to allow the desire for peace on the part of the majority to have any effect upon the misguided minority which forms the Irish Republican Army, and who at this moment keep the majority in Ireland in a state of thraldom through terror. There are many well-intentioned and patriotic Irishmen of different religions, as well as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Widnes (Mr. A. Henderson), who have done all they can to make for peace, but, up to the present, one of the preliminaries to any peace with the Irish Republican Army has been the retention for Ireland of that army. I submit that neither this House nor this country can tolerate the setting up of an Army in Ireland.
You have two armies.
We do not want any armies in Ireland.
The Regular Army would be rapidly reduced, the auxiliaries would disappear, and the Royal Irish Constabulary would be reduced once these murders ceased. The whole position could be changed in 24 hours if these attacks on the forces of the Crown and law-abiding citizens ceased. The onus and burden of all the trouble in Ireland is not on the men in uniform, but it is on those who attack them. They have submitted to these attacks very often without even hitting back. They have endeavoured by process of law to bring their attackers to justice. I hope the Committee will realise that Ireland would be peaceful in 24 hours if the Irish Republican Army would cease their murderous operations. The issue before the Irish administration is stern but simple. The administration of which I am the political head is entrusted with carrying out the law, and to do that we use the armed forces of the Crown. The issue is between the Irish Republican Army and the British forces. We cannot evade this issue, and we cannot avoid it. We are not responsible for raising it. We must keep it up or lose Ireland.
You have lost Ireland already.
I ask the Committee to give me this Supplementary Estimate to enable me to carry on the administration. I welcome criticism, whether made in regard to breaches of discipline or in any other way, but as long as we are entrusted with the administration of the law we must carry on. In the meantime the door to peace is open. It is wide open, and it always has been open. Neither this Government, this House, nor the people of these islands have any quarrel with the people of Ireland, but as long as the forces of the Crown are attacked it is the first duty of the Government to resist those attacks and bring the offenders to justice. I myself believe the solution of this Irish problem will be the coming together of the North and South. This may come through an Amendment of the present Home Rule Act, but until that time comes I hope the House will continue to support the Government in the most difficult task of any Irish administration, that is, to administer the law fairly and justly to all the people of Ireland.
I think the Committee has a right to complain that, notwithstanding the fact that we have occupied two days in diseasing the affairs of Ireland, the Chief Secretary has never once attempted to answer the indictment levelled against his policy. I was rather interested to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that he invited the members of Dail Eireann to come to this House, and to raise Irish issues here. I have endeavoured to fight their battles in this House, but I confess that if they understand anything of our experience in Irish debates, it will be far better for them to remain at home. The right hon. Gentleman has not attempted, in the speech he delivered this evening, or in the speech he delivered on the last occasion in the Crozier debate, to reply to a single one of the allegations made against him and his administration. I rise for the purpose not of charging the military but the Government with being responsible for all that is occurring in Ireland to-day. I notice that the Chief Secretary piped a lower key to his speech to-night than usual. He is accustomed in dealing with Irish questions to taking up a tragic attitude, and declaring that he is prepared to defend everything done by officials in Ireland. I venture to say that when he made that declaration he gave the first comfort and encouragement to those uniformed officers of the Crown who are breaking the law in Ireland. For my part I am not satisfied, and I do not think other hon. Members are satisfied, that the proper way to deal with the malefactors who have been responsible for many of the horrors recited by my hon. Friend (Mr. T. P. O'Connor), with a mere passing denunciation of the conduct of these men, and it is not sufficient vindication of the right hon. Gentleman's policy when he claims to be the defender of law and order in this House.
He told us nothing with regard to the case raised by the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. MacVeagh). I never knew in my life a more indefensible position than that taken up by the right hon. Gentleman in relation to this case. A number of special constables were found looting. The district inspector had them arrested, and they were handed to the military authorities and soon after this, that district inspector in Newry was shifted to the South of Ireland. I ask the right hon. Gentleman why was Mr. Barrington shifted out of Newry, and he has not given me any answer. It was for the same reason that General Crozier was allowed to resign. That is because he attempted to put down looting in Trim on the part of the Black and Tans. That is why this inspector has been sent out of Newry. It is no use the right hon. Gentleman standing at that box and repeatedly declaring his horror of reprisals and outrages against the law on the part of his officers, when everything he has done has been a clear vindication of his statement that he intends to defend these men in Parliament, no matter what they do.
7.0 P.M.
Take the case of General Crozier. I was very much disturbed by the character of the Debate the other night, because the real issue was skilfully shifted, and we were drawn into a rhetorical discussion upon small points. The real point in the Crozier controversy was that this General in the Army, who was the Commander of the forces of the Army of the Provisional Government in Belfast and who had done brilliant service in the War, may have expected some eulogy for his services. This gallant Colonel of the Ulster Volunteers, who after wards bore a brave part in the War, investigated cases of looting. He found that these men had carried on this looting, and he dismissed them. Their dismissal was ratified by their Commanding Officer. Subsequently, these men were brought back by order of the Chief Secretary to continue to loot, if they liked, and this gallant officer—a Unionist officer, a General in the Army of the Provisional Government—was driven out of the police force, because he endeavoured to maintain discipline and to clear the force which he controlled from the stigma of this act of looting. Here are two distinct cases. A district inspector of the Constabulary, a Protestant and Unionist, in the town of Newry, arrested a number of special constables for looting. The evidence was of such a character that there was no question about it. They were handed over to the military, and this inspector was actually degraded. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] If he was not degraded, why was he shifted out of Newry? I did not make the allegation, but I heard it made here, that these special constables, these malefactors, themselves demanded the degradation of this man. At all events he was shifted. If impartial men think as I think, what are the people in Ireland, who are so suspicious of everything that is done by the Government, to think of a transaction by which this officer, who was trying to discharge his duty and to protect innocent people from looting and marauding, is degraded? Instead of the right hon. Gentleman telling us that he would be reinstated, he absolutely declines to give us any explanation of what has been done.
He has no power.
I know he has no power. He looks powerful, but he is absolutely powerless. Someone said that the Chief Secretaryship ought to be abolished. To-day there is no Chief Secretary for Ireland. There is a spokesman appointed to come here and defend everything that is done in Ireland in the name of law, and to try to make disorder appear to be orderly when it is brought about by the armed forces of the Crown. He has to try and defend the law when it is really a defence of lawlessness on the part of the forces of the Crown. That is the function the right hon. Gentleman, and he has carried it out fairly well, seeing that he can rally the Unionist Members of Parliament into this House to hear his speech, and that they run out when his speech is ended.
We are listening to you.
I am not referring to the hon. Gentleman. He does not come in to hear me to be converted, he comes in to hear me as an intellectual delight. I should have imagined, instead of the Chief Secretary coming here and giving us abstractions about justice and declaring his hatred of indiscipline and denouncing the wrong done by the officers of the Crown, that he would stand by these real officers of the Crown, the men who are trying to vindicate him. Do you know what your defence of these men has done at the last two or three by-elections? I honestly believe it. You may fool the House of Commons—anybody can fool the people here—but you cannot fool the constituencies, and especially you cannot fool Scottish constituencies. These men, with their logical minds, are not to be taken in by humbug of this character.
What about Woolwich?
Even at Woolwich you nearly got defeated. The hon. Member who was returned was not a supporter of the Government's Irish policy, but a supporter of my hon. Friend below me (Mr. Bottomley). He had no coupon, and there was no Black and Tan cross upon his paper. He stood for the glory of England, and he carried his flag on to that bench. In the vast and ever-increasing power of my hon. Friend the Member for South Hackney (Mr. Bottomley) lies the vindication of the National party which grew strong when it lost the hon. Gentleman (Colonel C. Lowther). It disappeared in the night, and was resurrected the following night by the hon. Member for South Hackney. Therefore do not let us misunderstand where we are. The V.C., with all his glory and courage, only won the constituency, which was an Arsenal district, by 230 votes.
700.
He may have won by 7,000—
Order, order! The hon. Member (Mr. Devlin) knows—
Let them go on. There is nothing to argue about.
He won by 680.
The hon. Member (Mr. Devlin) knows that he must address the Chair. He should do that in the ordinary way.
Anything you suggest, Sir, I shall certainly carry out. This gentleman (Captain Gee) would have won by 7,000 instead of by 700 if it had not been for the policy of the Government in regard to Ireland. What are sensible people to think of a Government that comes along carrying a standard of law while its armed forces are breaking the law? What are they to think of its efforts to maintain order while its uniformed officers are carrying the torch of hatred and disorder throughout the country? The only conclusion they can come to is to say: "You want Ireland; you want to keep her. What good is Ireland to you under present conditions? None whatever; but if you want to keep her and to hold her you will only do so for a very short time, because, though this may be a battle of Irish Republicans against the British Army, there is a revolt against your whole system of administration in Ireland amongst all the people." Therefore do not tell the House of Commons and the country that this is a war between an insensate and irresponsible crowd of boys in revolt against the British Empire. It is the revolt of a whole nation against your government and authority. If English government in Ireland is entirely impossible to-day, it is to the British Government that you may attribute that fact, and to them alone.
I have mentioned two cases, that of the District Inspector at Newry and of General Crozier. I come to another case. The hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Mr. E. Wood) said it would pay the Government far better to tell not only the truth but the whole truth. There is one way by which we can get at the truth with regard to these things in Ireland, and that is for the right hon. Gentleman, who is the representative of the Government, to do as the hon. and gallant Member suggests and to tell the whole truth. We feel we have not got the truth from the right hon. Gentleman. I do not charge him with being personally untruthful, but he has laid down for himself an indefensible standard from the beginning. He has said, "I will defend these people, no matter what they do. These are my officers, these are my servants; I will stand by my officers and I will defend my servants in every set and series of circumstances." That was the position the right hon. Gentleman took up. If we could not get the truth from the right hon. Gentleman we were entitled to get it from some quarter. Hon. Members for Ireland are not believed. Hon. Members from England are not believed. Newspapers in Ireland are not believed. Newspapers in England have been assailed for not telling the truth. I agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman that in the long run it would be better to have the truth told, because it has an awkward way of getting out into the light of day. The truth has been permeating, not into Parliament, but into the constituencies, and we see the fruits of that in the election result to-day, when the Government has been defeated by a 10,000 majority, and it is my deep and profound conviction that one of the causes of that defeat is what is going on in Ireland.
We asked for the truth. The right hon. Gentleman could not give it because he was a partisan. We asked for a Commission to inquire into what was going on in Ireland. I would have agreed if the Commission had been made up of Unionist Members of this House, with my hon. Friend opposite (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks) as chairman—there is a large concession to Toryism. I would have taken a Commission of Unionist Members of Parliament to go over to Ireland and to inquire into the truth or the falsehood of the allegations made against the Government. All the right hon. Gentleman could offer was General Strickland, the Commander of the Police in the South of Ireland, to inquire into the malefactions of his own men. They burned down Cork in the first instance. The reply of the right hon. Gentleman was an insinuation that the burning of Cork was due, not to the Black and Tans, but to the Sinn Feiners. We invited him to tell us the truth, and he appointed General Strickland as a Commissioner to inquire into the causes of the destruction of one of the finest cities in all Europe. We ought to have got the truth then. You talk about our attacking gallant officers and the military; what grosser insult could be offered to gallant officers than that which the Government offered to General Strickland? He inquired into all the circumstances. What was he asked to inquire into the circumstances for? What did he give the right hon. Gentleman? Something that he might put in his pocket, or lock away in his despatch box? Was it to vindicate the conduct of the military or to tell the truth? From the moment when that inquiry commenced until this morning, General Strickland's Report has been kept a profound secret from the House and the country. The only information we have in regard to what was done in Cork was what we got from the Prime Minister, and was to the effect that a number of these men had been dismissed. After the Black and Tans had burned down Cork, I asked in this House what had been done to them, and the right hon. Gentleman replied that they had been shifted to West Cork.
What followed? The night after two armed lorries of these Black and Tans travelling along a road in an isolated country district, came across a resident magistrate, a priest and a cyclist. The resident magistrate had been travelling in a motor-car, which had broken down. Everybody in Ireland knows what a resident magistrate is. He is the chief Government magistrate in the district. This gentleman's car had broken down, and the old priest offered to give him any assistance he could, A young cyclist also came along and, on the invitation of the priest, likewise attempted to help the resident magistrate. The three were working at the car when the Black and Tans arrived on the scene—men whose hands were reeking with the crimes of the previous day, when they had fired by torch and petrol some of the finest buildings in the city of Cork. The leader of the Black and Tans told the resident magistrate that they were going to shoot him. He replied, "I am a resident magistrate." But this Black and Tan did not know what a resident magistrate was. He knew almost as little about Ireland as the Chief Secretary himself. The magistrate produced his papers and, while doing so, the officer shot the priest and the cyclist, and when the resident magistrate appealed to the other men on the lorry, he was told he had better get along or he would be shot. It subsequently turned out that the other men on the lorry pursued him into cross country roads, and tried vainly to discover his whereabouts. They also raided his house. Had they succeeded, anyone who knows anything about the condition of Ireland now must be aware that they would have shot him, taken him back to where the priest was killed, and then have declared that he had been murdered by the priest and the cyclist. That was their intention. [An HON. MEMBER: "You have no proof of that!"]
There never is proof in Ireland.
Here was an opportunity for vindicating the law. An innocent priest, in the winter of his life, who had served his people faithfully for many years, and who we are told had never taken any part in politics, generously tried in a friendly moment to do an act of kindness towards a Government official. He is shot down. We are told by the resident magistrate how he pleaded for mercy for the priest and for the young cyclist. Here, I say, was a chance for establishing the majesty of the law. There was a trial, and the court decided that this officer was a lunatic. I venture to assert there are greater lunatics than he, and those who put him in control of this motor lorry were criminals rather than lunatics, bearing in mind the performances of the day before. What however about the fourteen sane men who sat in the lorry and watched the tragedy and the destruction of two innocent lives. What about these fourteen men? It is notorious that instead of lifting the bodies with reverence they threw them over a hedge into a field. Are they still at large? Do they still go forth to carry on your policy of law and order in the name of Imperial England. I have asked the right hon. Gentleman repeatedly where these men are. He has not told me. He has told me they are still employed. What are they employed at? Are they employed as police. Are they still in the service of the Government?
The right hon. Gentleman is violently hostile, he says, to this criminal conduct on the part of these uniformed officers, yet a district inspector of police is hounded out of his district at Newry because he maintained the law, and a gallant colonel is victimised although he has rendered splendid service to the Provisional Government in Belfast, and is also hunted out of the Service. I ask the right hon. Gentleman not to tell us that he is retaining these 14 men in the service of the Crown in order to carry on a policy of terrorism in Ireland by which every man, woman, and child in the martial-law areas is absolutely filled with fear when they see a British uniform within miles of them. The right hon. Gentleman told us the other day, when we asked for compensation for these people, that he could not give any, and if they wanted it they must go to the ratepayers. If this were not so tragic an experience for Irishmen and for Ireland, I would say there could be nothing so grotesquely comic in the history of the world. The greatest buildings in the City of Cork, the most expensive buildings belonging to Unionists and Protestants, are burnt down and then the owners, who are the chief ratepayers in the city, are themselves to pay the damages awarded by the Recorder under the Criminal Injuries Act. There was never anything like it.
I come now to the case of Cornelius Murphy, who was shot for carrying a revolver. It is remarkable that very few people knew anything about this man being sentenced to death until they read of the execution in the papers the next day. To sentence a man to death, and to execute him for carrying a revolver, is, in my judgment, a most indefensible and appalling act. Next I come to the report of Judge Bodkin. I apologise for raising these questions again. I will ask the right hon. Gentleman, when he comes to speak later on in the Debate, to tell the truth to the House of Commons.
He cannot do it.
Judge Bodkin tells the story of a young married woman who pleaded to an officer for the life of her husband. Nevertheless the husband was taken away a short distance and shot, and his charred remained were found next morning in his own house, which had been burnt down. Another young man was shot dead in the street while attempting to extinguish the flames of the burning house, and the widow, in a letter to the Press, declares that after they shot him they flung him into the fire and roasted him alive. The hon. Member for Ripon has asked that the truth of these things should be told. Why does the right hon. Gentleman harrow our feelings with stories of soldiers killed in ambush, why does he not tell the whole story? Why does he not tell, for instance, how Patrick Kennedy and James Murphy were arrested in Talbot Street, Dublin, just before the curfew hour, taken to the Castle, examined, and found to have committed no offence, and then ordered to leave. It was after curfew hour. They said to the military officer, "If we go out now we will probably be shot for being on the streets after curfew hour," The officer sent them on two military cars to their homes. They never reached their homes. They were found in Clontarf Park, one dead and the other dying. The second has since died.
I have stated twice that three men are under arrest and will be charged with the murder of these two men. They will be tried by court martial.
Why were only three men arrested?
Because up to the present only three have been identified as having been parties to these murders.
How many people were on the lorries?
What about the officer in charge?
The right hon. Gentleman says that three men were arrested. The officers at the barracks must know what men were sent on the lorries with these two men who had been found to be innocent of any offence. Where are the other soldiers? Why have only three been arrested? Then what about the horror at Drogheda, when two respected citizens were taken from their beds in the middle of the night, conveyed to a lonely road outside, and brutally done to death? What about Mr. Dickson, a Protestant Unionist farmer in County Wicklow, murdered in his house in the dead of night by Black and Tans? It turned out afterwards that they were out for loot and robbery. What about those men? I could give to the right hon. Gentleman and to the Committee a litany which, if printed, would reach from here almost to Trafalgar Square, recording crimes similar to those which I have ventured to recite, and yet, to hear the right hon. Gentleman, you would think that the only things going on in Ireland were savage assassinations of innocent soldiers. If it is to be a war, as you say it is, be- tween the Army of Britain and the Army of the Irish Republic, let it be a real and clean war, and a clean fight. If you bring your armoured cars, your 100,000 soldiers, your aeroplanes, your scientific machinery of war, to fight this rebel army which you say is only a section of the population—and that section largely made up of peasant boys, ill-trained and ill-equipped to meet a great scientific military machine—surely that ought to be enough, without bringing your petrol cans, your torches, your floggings, your imprisonments, your searching of houses, your desecration of convents, your visits to presbyteries, your clearance of colleges. These are the methods by which you carry on this war, and I am here in this House to denounce them, which I do, not with an eloquence equal to the eloquence, but with a passion equal to the passion, with which the Prime Minister denounced in such unmeasured terms conduct less unworthy in South Africa in the days of the Boer War.
Let me give another case. On the night of the 28th September last, the military raided a hall where a dance was in progress in Brough in the County of Limerick. There were 130 young men present, and 58 of them were brought before a military tribunal and sentenced to imprisonment for 10 years. The spirit of mercy took hold of the larger tribunal, and, after appeal, some of the sentences were remitted to five years, and the remainder got terms ranging from three to six months. In another case, in County Sligo, over 80 men were taken off for internment. Half-a-dozen young farmers were taken from their farms in County Galway, stripped naked, their clothes burned, compelled at the point of the revolver to remove bacon, flour, and other stores to a military lorry, and afterwards badly beaten and kicked and left naked to proceed to their homes. When some of these officers were examined, they said, "Oh, the assaults on these men were nothing to speak of." I will read a letter which I received from a man in the South of Ireland, who is not a politician at all, but who has been moved by the horrors he has witnessed. His letter is dated 28th February, and he says: and denunciation of this Government and their methods in Ireland to-day. You burn the homes of innocent people; you send marauders and looters loose upon the community; you terrorise women and little children; you carry on universal searchings; you arrest innocent men, some of whom, after you have found them to be innocent, you allow to go out and be murdered by your servants; and I, an Irish representative, am supposed to remain silent here and allow it all to go on. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]
Yes.
Every time these questions are raised in this House, every time we speak at public meetings in this country in denunciation of reprisals, the uniform answer is that we are doing these things in order to help the assassins. No, Sir, we are not here to help the assassins; we are here to wipe out assassins and assassinations. The English constituencies at the bye-elections are wiping out the assassins, and when the assassins disappear we will soon see the disappearance of assassination. This House of Commons need not listen to us nor pay the slightest attention to us if it does not wish to do so. The whole horror of the present situation, the colossal blunder after blunder that you have made, has been the direct refusal of you yourselves—private Members and Members of the Government—to listen to those of us who do not belong to any extreme section in Ireland, but who love our country, and who feel that you are leaving to Ireland a legacy of hatred towards this country, which, like my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, I think would be not only wrong, but fatal to everything which stands for the future of humanity. If you go on now with this policy and carry on your war, it will be an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth; there will be a Sinn Feiner, or a dozen, killed to-day, and a soldier, or a dozen, killed to-morrow. Human life will be destroyed, property destroyed, good feeling destroyed, comradeship rendered impossible, and, as I have said before, the well-springs of concord and good will between these two nations poisoned at their very source. You might justify it by saying, "Let it go on until it ends." How will it end? My own judgment is that it will end in a triumph for neither side, and, therefore, I want it ended here and now on both sides. I say to the Government that what we want is a truce in Ireland. What we want on the part of the head of the Government is a larger vision and a nobler imagination in approaching this question. Does any body in this House view the future with any feeling but with one of absolute despair? If this thing goes on, will it grow less intense in its insensateness and in its hatred? In the end—I do not believe that anyone in this House can contradict me—you will have to come to a settlement, and it is better to try and get a settlement now than to try later on when fresh young lives have been added to the procession of murders for the sake of duty, or patriotism either upon the one side or upon the other My hon. Friend is right about this bargaining, this constant asking, "Can you deliver the goods?" The highest form of statesmanship is not to engage in some petty commercial transaction across a table, but to do that which the statesman's mind and conscience dictates as the better way. The way to settle this question is for the Prime Minister to come forward and declare to Ireland—
He is outside the door now.
I always speak sufficiently loud to be heard even from behind Mr. Speaker's Chair. The proper thing for the Prime Minister to do now is to come forward and say what he will give to Ireland, what he will offer to Ireland, if the spokesmen of Sinn Fein or any other section of the people come into the conference room with him—and I gathered from the Chief Secretary that large concessions would be made—if Dail Eireann appointed its delegates to meet the Government. If such a meeting cannot be held, then let the Primp Minister take his courage in both hands, and let him state at that box what concessions he is prepared to make to Ireland, to give up bargaining, not to treat this question as some petty commercial transaction but as a great act of national duty and of statesmanship, and along that way alone lies sure success, and along the other way lies damnation. That is where it will lead to in my judgment. The effects of it are seen everywhere throughout the world. The Government must realise that not by coercion but by conciliation, not by repression but by freedom, not by trying to crush out the indestructible aspirations of a people but by satisfying these aspirations can they solve this problem. They can solve it here and now.
London Conference
German Proposals Rejected. Sanctions to Be Enforced
Prime Minister's Statement
I do not rise for the purpose of continuing this Debate, but to take what is almost an unprecedented action in asking you to permit me to move that we Report Progress in order that the Prime Minister may be able to give to the House at the earliest possible moment the latest news with regard to the Conference that has been proceeding. We have heard from other sources that the negotiations are at an end, but such information as that, with all its gravity, I think we would like to hear direct from the Prime Minister. I shall move on the understanding that immediately the Prime Minister makes his statement, I will ask permission to withdraw the Motion.
The course is a very unusual one. If I recollect aright, I think I once permitted it to be adopted in circumstances of similar gravity and, on the understanding that that is not to be subsequently open to Debate, I am willing to meet the convenience of the House in that respect.
I beg to move "That the Chairman do Report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
A good deal of what has taken place at the Conference is already public property, and the proposals made by the German Delegations last week, and the answer given by the Allies, have both been published in full. Therefore I do not propose to take up the time of the Committee by reverting to those proposals. With the permission of the Committee, I will take advantage of the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman to give a short explanation of what passed to-day.
Hon. Members will recollect the general character of the Paris proposals. The general character of the Paris proposals was an annuity spread over forty-two years, ranging from £100,000,000 sterling a year to £300,000,000 a year, plus a proposal, which was to be taken as a test of German prosperity, for an export duty of 12 per cent. on all the exports of Germany. That was an index number of German prosperity.
Dr. Simons, on behalf of the German Delegation, to-day came with new proposals. They represent an advance on the proposals of last week, but the Committee will see that they were quite unacceptable. He proposed that we should confine our arrangement to the first five years, leaving the remaining thirty-seven years to stand over for further discussion. His proposals in regard to the first five years were an apparent acceptance of the Paris proposals—that is, as far as I recollect, £100,000,000 sterling for the first two years and £150,000,000 sterling for the remaining three years, plus 12 per cent. on German exports—but he coupled that acceptance with two conditions.
The first was a condition that was not explained very fully with regard to the conditions under which the German trade with the Allies should be conducted. He did not explain whether that meant the most favoured nation treatment, or whether he had something else in mind. But the second condition was of a character which did not encourage us to make further inquiries as to the first. His second condition was that this proposal was subject to the plébiscite in High Silesia. The plebiscite in High Silesia is to take place within the next few weeks, and the condition means that if the plebiscite were adverse to the Germans, either in whole or in part—for instance, if the coal miners of High Silesia were to decide in favour of Poland, or if any part of High Silesia were, under that plebiscite, to pass over to Poland—Dr. Simons and the German Government would be entitled to say to us, "The bargain is off." That means that if we had accepted this we should have no certainty for five years. As I pointed out, we could not have a certainty beyond five weeks.
Under those circumstances, it was idle to proceed. The population of Germany, even if the whole of High Silesia were taken away, would exceed that of Great Britain and Ireland by over 10,000,000. We do not consider that £100,000,000, plus 12 per cent. of the exports, running up to £150,000,000, plus 12 per cent. of the exports, is something which is beyond the capacity of 55,000,000 industrious people. Therefore we could not possibly accept that proposal. When it came to the remaining thirty-seven years, he had practically no proposal of any sort or kind. He accepted in principle the variable annuity determined according to German prosperity, but as to what that annuity was going to be, what the index figure should be, what the minimum should be, or even what the maximum should be, he gave no indication.
Under those circumstances we felt that there was no proposal before us which would justify our postponing putting into operation the sanctions which we indicated last week. We came to that conclusion with very great regret, because we naturally should prefer an arrangement with Germany to taking any action to enforce demands, however reasonable and just they might be, because obviously it is better when you are dealing with a country to get agreement. You are more likely to get your agreement honoured than you are to get your sanctions enforced. That was our experience with the Spa agreement. I will not say that the arrangement that was made then by Germany has been completely honoured, but the effort put forward on that occasion to carry out the arrangement was a real one and a bonâ fide one, and it is right that that should be acknowledged at the very moment when we are enforcing sanctions upon Germany.
For that reason I should have preferred an agreement to a sanction, but the conclusion I have come to, after sitting there for days and seeing Dr. Simons—about whom personally I have nothing to say—is that he is not in a position to put forward any proposal which can be accepted by the Allies. German opinion has not in the least realised that the Allies are determined to enforce the legitimate conditions of the Treaty of Versailles. He had in his mind the kind of reception which he would get when he got back to Germany, and he probably felt that he was not in a position to put forward proposals which in his heart he might have been anxious to have submitted to the Conference if he had been a free agent.
Therefore we decided that the sanctions should be put immediately into operation. Instructions have already been given for the troops to occupy the indicated towns. That will give command of a very important industrial area. We have already given instructions for the necessary steps to be taken for considering the best method of carrying out the other sanctions. We shall have to submit proposals to this House as to one of the sanctions to which I attach very great importance, that is the sanction which enables us to compel every purchaser of German goods in an Allied country to pay a proportion of the purchase money into the Exchequer of his own country. I attach real importance to this, not merely as a sanction, but as a method of liquidating the debt. I almost regret that it will be necessary to put it forward as a sanction, because I hoped that it would form part of any arrangement which would be made.
Perhaps hon. Members would like me to explain a little further the character of the proposal. It means that if a man buys a thousand pounds' worth of German goods—let us assume for the moment the figure is 50 per cent. which you deduct—I should propose to take powers to deduct any percentage which is necessary in order to levy the proportion of the annuities which are payable to our country. Fifty per cent. would cover the amount this year. If, then, the order is given that 50 per cent. of any purchase price shall be paid to the Exchequer, the man who buys a thousand pounds' worth of German goods would pay £500 into the British Exchequer.
What if they come from Holland?
8.0 P.M.
I will come to that. My hon. Friend may assume that will be dealt with. Fifty per cent. will be paid straight into the Exchequer, who will give the purchaser a receipt. He will then send over to Germany either by bill of exchange or whatever other method by which he pays the balance, and he will pin on to that the Treasury receipt.
Will that be retrospective?
Certainly, for everything that has not been paid up to the present moment. The German seller will then go to his Government, and he will say, "Here I have got a bill of exchange for £500. I have got a British Treasury receipt, or a French Treasury receipt, for another £500. I ask you to cash this £500." He cashes it in currency which is quite useful to him, but no good to us, because he can pay his wages, he can pay for his goods, and he can pay his costs in the currency of his country. So we get get our currency and they get theirs, and we are both satisfied. That is a method of getting over the difficulty of paying out your own currency beyond your own frontier, because you collect in your own coin and the seller is paid in his. That, I hope, will form part of any arrangement that is made, because—the Noble Lord (Lord Robert Cecil) shakes his head.
I was not desiring to contradict, or in any way to interrupt my right hon. Friend. I should not think of doing so.
You did not interrupt, but you expressed a very emphatic opinion by shaking your head. At any rate, Dr. Simons was prepared to recommend that to the German Government. It makes a very great difference, because it seems to me it is one way of getting over the difficulty of payment in currency, and a very important way, because by a levy of 50 per cent., even at the present rate of import, you get the whole of the proportion of the British indemnity for the current year. That is the position with regard to that. The hon. Gentleman below the Gangway (Mr. Bottomley) said, "How are you going to deal with these goods if they come from Holland or from another country?" We should give notice in respect of any goods of German origin. We could not allow any fraudulent transaction of that kind. We should have to make it quite clear that what settled the transaction was the origin, and there is no difficulty in following that.
If Holland and Sweden have a preference?
I do not care whether they have a preference or not. If an Act of Parliament is passed that in respect of goods of German origin one- half of the price is to be paid into the Exchequer, then the Swede or the Dutchman, as the case may be, knows what he has got to expect, and therefore there is nothing which is unfair to him. Otherwise it would be possible to get round that arrangement by simply selling to Holland or Sweden or Denmark or America; but whether it is America or any other country, as long as notice is given that we will deal in that way with goods of German origin, the agents will have effective notice, and therefore the responsibility will be theirs.
Might I ask will that be effective with regard to the Colonies?
That is a question entirely for the Colonies. We cannot legislate for them. They must legislate for themselves. We shall certainly pass on the proposals to them and as they are interested in the indemnity exactly as we are, they may also find it the best way of collecting it. But we cannot pledge the Colonies. That is a matter for their own legislature—I mean the Dominions. They must deal with the matter for themselves. That, I think, covers the whole ground. I do not think there is anything further I can say at the present moment. There will be a very full verbatim report in the Press tomorrow of what has been said on both sides.
In asking leave to withdraw the Motion, may I be permitted to say that the right hon. Gentleman has made a very important statement, and it may be necessary for us to seek from the Government an early opportunity for a full Debate. I hope that the Prime Minister will assist us with the Leader of the House in giving that opportunity, should it be desired. I ask leave to withdraw.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Supply
Question again proposed, "That a sum not exceeding—1,368,700 be granted for the said Service."
Everyone who listened to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast (Mr. Devlin) fully appreciates his sincere feelings, and that he, as much as any Member of this House, would wish the present miseries and dangers in Ireland to be overpassed, and would desire relations between England and Ireland not only to be as good as they were in days before the War but to be far better than they have been any time in the past. He will, I think, acquit me of discourtesy if I do not in the very few remarks I address to the Committee follow him in the lines of thought upon which his powerful and eloquent speech was built. He must permit me, however, to say that his speech to-night, like many another one, was not only an intellectual pleasure to listen to, but was a contribution from a point of view which we would not willingly neglect to this the most grave and pressing issue. Those of us who have heard the Debate this afternoon, charged as the speeches have been with grave feeling and with familiarity for the most terrible state of things, will yet, I think, agree with what the Chief Secretary said at the beginning of his speech, that of all the Debates there have been on crime in Ireland during the last six months, this Debate has had some of the most hopeful features about it.
There was a remark made by the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. Mac-Veagh) in the form of an interjection in which he is so great a master, in which he said, apropos of something said by the hon. Member for Ripon (Major Wood), "Stop outrages on both sides." That is what I hope all of us desire The difficulty of debating this question is that if we use our words entirely or even mainly in regard to outrages on one side, we may unwittingly be using words that can be misconstrued, and can be twisted and turned and misused to show that we are blind to outrages on the other. I am not concerned in addressing this Committee for a few moments to add my description of what is happening in Ireland to the very powerful descriptions the Committee has already had. There is in Ireland a conspiracy of murder, and while it is connected with and arises from deep political unrest, surely it is the duty of every one of us to keep distinct, both in our minds and in our speeches and in our actions, that conspiracy of murder for which there can be no answer but suppression from the political views and ambitions for which force is in itself no remedy, and which must be dealt with by other methods, and in connection with an entirely different point of view, and an entirely different consideration of the whole matter. I wish to impress upon my right hon. Friend the Attorney-General for Ireland the importance of giving, as the Chief Secretary promised to give, the greatest consideration to the suggestions made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ripon. There was one suggestion he made to which the Chief Secretary gave no reply, and that was the suggestion that reports of all inquiries should be made public. We know that there are grave and most conclusive reasons against inquiries in Ireland at the present time being public all through; that might be the very means of preventing cogent evidence being given and might lead to the murder of those who gave it. If the conclusions come to, apart from that evidence, and apart from the names of the persons testifying, were made public it would relieve the Government of a good deal of suspicion which it does not deserve to incur, and it would be true to the only possible maxim in a democratic country dealing with these matters of giving the maximum of publicity, and not the minimum, to what is going on. I desire, therefore, from the point of view of a supporter of the Government, from the point of view of one who wishes to see the Government win through honourably and fairly and without the least possible prejudice to the clamouring duty of reconstruction in Ireland, to see the Government adopt this policy of public report of the results of their inquiries so that those who allege against the Government that they are concealing or that they are not even wishful to deal with irregularities and outrages by any of their own employés may see by the report of those inquiries that that is not true and that the public may be in a better position to form sane and balanced and reasonable conclusions upon the subject matter.
The other suggestion made by my hon. and gallant Friend was to amalgamate the auxiliary forces and the Royal Irish Constabulary. The Chief Secretary gave powerful reasons to show how difficult it is to turn what is in law a police force like the Royal Irish Constabulary into a purely military force, and to bring it under these regulations which we know so well are embodied in the Army Annual Act and in the Handbook of Military Discipline. I hope those reasons will not override the other strong reasons that my hon. and gallant Friend gave, but this, at any rate, I would press on my right hon. Friend. If you cannot amalgamate the Royal Irish Constabulary with the Regular soldiers, surely, in one form or another, the auxiliaries, who have been by common consent much the least regular in their methods, and against whom are being brought with the greatest force the graver charges of irregularity and outrage, might cease to exist as a separate force, so that at this stage in recovering and preserving order in Ireland you might either have the definite Regular soldiers of the Crown under the military discipline they know or the Royal Irish Constabulary, whose traditions are only second to those of the Regular Army in discipline and in carrying out the most difficult work in the spirit of proper order. There is no getting away from the fact that now, and in this country widely as well as in Ireland, there is grave dissatisfaction, there is grave distrust of the discretion, of the order, of the discipline of these auxiliaries, whom it may have been right for the Government to call into being months ago in a particular crisis, but whose usefulness as a separate and distinct body has surely come to an end, and whose absorption into other forces, where traditions of discipline are far stronger, would help and not injure the Government in the duty that lies before them.
We all know how profoundly difficult it is when you have a whole community distressed and agitated both with political ambitions, with terror of the proceedings both of their own extremists and of the least disciplined of the Government forces, with crowds of individuals fighting what some people call war, but what is that most dangerous and most terrible of all wars, a war of assassination or a war of secret outrage. Where you have these things at the same time no Government could have a graver or a more intricate task than to unravel the complicated web and to combine, as it ought to do, repression of crime with the avoidance of treating innocent persons or even suspected persons as you would those who are known to be guilty of crime. I am confident that the public of Great Britain and Ireland will support the Gov- ernment in their putting down and bringing to an end the murders which have distinguished the action of the most extreme persons in Ireland itself. I am equally certain that this House and the public outside will support the Government in everything they do to restore, to maintain and to perfect discipline amongst all their forces, whatever severities are entailed. I know that to combine the two is a matter of the greatest difficulty, but surely if this be a difficult matter it is well worth the doing, better worth the doing than most things which are easier. There can be combined a rigorous campaign against gratuitous murder with an equally rigorous discipline against those who, under the greatest provocation, injure the authority and bring a cloud on the operations of the forces of the Crown, and it is only by combining those two things that the Government and those who support the Government and the public of the two Islands can possibly lay, firm and strong and impervious to shock and chance, the foundations of that self-government in Ireland which now all parties in this House desire and which cannot come too soon.
I only interpose for the purpose of reinforcing my hon. Friend (Sir R. Adkins), and in order to ask the Attorney-General if he is in a position to give us more explicit information than has yet been given us in regard to what steps either he or the Irish Secretary has taken to restore discipline amongst the Irish Auxiliary Police Force. I think it is common knowledge that the Army, and indeed the greater proportion of the units of the Irish Auxiliary Police Force, have conducted themselves with commendable restraint under circumstances of extraordinary difficulty, but I think it has been equally established that the discipline in certain other units of the Irish Auxiliary Police Force has been almost as unsatisfactory as it is possible to be, and has led to results which can only be described as deplorable. I deeply sympathise with the intense difficulties of my right hon. Friend. I know, too, that he has been restrained in his utterances by that spirit of loyalty to his colleagues and subordinates which is so characteristic of him and is so much appreciated by this House, but at the same time I believe he does appreciate that there are many people in this country, supporters of the Government and Members of this House on this side, who are very uneasy in regard to the state of affairs that I have described, and I hope he will be able to give us that explicit information for which I have asked. I want to make my own position clear I should be very sorry to be accused of any want of sympathy for our Police Force or any of our Crown forces in Ireland. I well remember the circumstances under which they were recruited. It was at a time when murder and outrage had depleted the ranks of the Royal Irish Constabulary and it was openly boasted by those who were responsible for the depletion that those ranks could not be filled, and the Royal Irish Constabulary would be unable to perform its functions. It was under these circumstances that the ranks were thrown open and recruitment followed, largely from ex-service men. I do think that we ought to remind ourselves, as we have been reminded in this House to-day, that for some time, in spite of murder and outrage, reprisals on any considerable scale did not take place. That is the point I want to make, that these particular men, recruited from ex-service men, were placed under circumstances as difficult as it is possible for men to be placed in. I am sure every military man will support me in this, that unless they are handled with the greatest determination by their officers, and unless they have competent officers to control them, the circumstances are such that they would lead to the worst want of discipline, almost the eventual demoralisation of the men, and culminating in the circumstances which most, unfortunately, we know too well. I would not exaggerate these instances. I do not believe them all, but some are undoubtedly true. Whatever we do or whatever the right hon. Gentleman does, so long as murder and outrage continues reprisals will continue, so long as human nature is what it is; but I am not satisfied that they hay been reduced to a minimum. I believe that in certain units the discipline is not in a satisfactory condition, and it would be well to acknowledge it openly in this House in order that adequate steps may be taken to restore that discipline which is so eminently necessary.
I have only one particular suggestion to make other than the request which I have made, and it is this: We have in Ireland men called upon to perform a task of extraordinary difficulty, while in other parts of the Empire we have trained soldiers. In the Regular battalions in India and in other places we have a greater proportion of highly trained men commanding companies and in subordinate positions than almost at any time before in the military history of this country, and I have often wondered if it would not be possible and worth while for the right hon. Gentleman to acknowledge frankly the difficulty of supplying sufficient experienced officers to command these auxiliary forces in Ireland and to borrow on a large scale from the Regular battalions engaged elsewhere. There is only one way to meet the difficulty, and that is the military method of the responsibility of officers. Until it is realised in every unit that unless the head of that unit can maintain discipline amongst his men he must be punished and must go, I am afraid that discipline will not be restored. It is the officer, the commanding officer in particular, who has more responsibility for the maintenance of discipline or otherwise than most people realise, and I do no most seriously and respectfully suggest to my right hon. Friend, if he would pay attention to this particular point, that he should accept it as a general principle that wherever in any unit discipline is bad the officer commanding that battalion is ipso facto proved to be incapable and liable to immediate removal, he would be somewhat assisted in the solution of his problem. I have the deepest sympathy with the right hon. Gentleman, and I realise full well that such criticisms as have been levelled against him mainly arise from that loyalty to subordinates which is of vital importance. I do not suggest that he has not taken action. I believe he has, but I ask him to reassure Members of this House and people in the country who are anxious upon this particular point.
I share to some extent the views expressed by the Chief Secretary to-night, for at last, for the first time for months, we seem to be on the way to getting at grips with realities. After to-night's Debate it will not be necessary for everyone who rises on this side of the House to say that we condemn and have condemned publicly and have spoken scathingly of murders done by Sinn Feiners and outrages committed by them, just as we have condemned outrages and murders committed by forces of the Crown. It will not be sufficient in future for the Chief Secretary or the Attorney-General to give a blank negative to charges that are made, because, as has been admitted from all the speeches from the other side, there is some truth in the charges that have been levelled as to outrages of various kinds committed by forces of the Crown. There has been a suggestion thrown out that all the forces of the Crown in Ireland should be amalgamated with the military forces there. If I thought that it would relieve in the smallest degree the situation of innocent people who are suffering in Ireland, I should be prepared to give that suggestion serious consideration, but I do not agree that that would have any good effect whatever. Indeed, I shall show that the effect of carrying out that suggestion might be to undermine the discipline of the forces themselves and to demoralise them through the influence of men who, as a mass, are largely demoralised at the present time themselves.
One of the things that I have wondered about in this House for a long time has been that while hon. Members have shown such concern for the soldiers they have not appreciated the peculiar and favoured position in which the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Auxiliaries have stood and are standing at the present time. In ordinary conditions a soldier is subject to rigid discipline. If he steps aside in the slightest degree under normal conditions he is subject to penalties. If it is anything serious he is subject to very serious penalties. When he goes into an area where there is such a situation as prevails in Ireland to-day, then his discipline is not only rigid, but is applied in a powerful and sometimes terrible form right from the lowest to the highest ranks with no qualification. It is applied in such an area as you have particularly in the south of Ireland at present. When I was in Ireland one of the men who claimed my sympathies was the soldier in the various towns and villages. It seems to me that under very distressing conditions on the whole the conduct of the soldiers was very commendable, and they remained loyal to the best traditions of the Army. There have been for some time back a few exceptions, but generally their conduct is very good, and all the more do I regret and condemn the murders of unarmed soldiers in the streets which took place last week just as I regret and condemn the things that are being done on the other side; and I think that the Sinn Feiners do their own cause harm in attacking men of that type.
Here you have men subject to this rigid discipline. General Macready issued an order saying that in cases of looting and destruction of property they will be subject to certain penalties, even to the penalty of death. These men perform their task for something under a pound a week. Their life is hazardous, their duty very disagreeable, and it is a question of being worked night and day. But the Royal Irish Constables are armed and the Auxiliaries are armed, and they have scarcely any discipline at all. The Chief Secretary shakes his head, but I will give him proof of the statement. Not only have they no discipline, but there is no hope of discipline in the force as it exists in Ireland to-day. These men are there at a guinea a day, or seven guineas a week, with supplementaries. The Royal Irish Constabulary are there with 10s. a day, and supplementaries, and allowances in some cases. They are not subject to discipline. They have no more danger of hazard than the soldier has, yet this House, which professes to be the loyal supporter of the soldier, has for six months at least tolerated a system whereby men getting seven times as much as the soldiers, who are working in the same area, and submitting themselves to the same danger and doing roughly the same work, are without the discipline of the soldier and have even the condonation of some of the things which they have done. The proof of what I say lies in this. When Sir Nevil Macready issued a Proclamation concerning reprisals the Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool asked the Chief Secretary whether the Black and Tans and Auxiliaries came under this Proclamation. The right hon. Gentleman said they did. He said logical result of the Proclamation. It is not necessary for me to deal in detail with the matter. The fact is it does nothing of the kind, and whatever the object of the right hon. Gentleman may have been, the Proclamation with all its penalties applies to the men under rigid discipline at a pound a week and does not apply to the men getting seven times that amount who are not subject to anything like the same amount of discipline. I have wondered for how long will this House tolerate this system, and I have come to the conclusion that they have tolerated it simply because these men were placed in a favoured position for a given object. One of the things which we say in our Report is supported by Judge Bodkin's Report and is further backed up by the General Crozier incident, and, while referring to this, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman, as a matter of discipline, is it a fact that the twenty-six men who were dismissed by General Crozier and subsequently sent back by General Tudor were paraded to-day and informed that they were reinstated in the Force and were being given back pay for the period covered by this controversy? If that is so, it is a very serious state of affairs. I know that the right hon. Gentleman will give me an answer with all the information at his disposal. I hope that if he has not full information he will wait until he gets really responsible information, because if this is the case it is a definite proof that all that he has said about discipline in this House matters not because he is not master in his own House and that some other force behind him is the real force to deal with this matter.
I do not believe that you can amalgamate this force with the military force. At present you have twenty auxiliaries under one officer. They are not officers in the ordinary sense at all, not in the military sense. The officer is an officer over twenty ex-officers, and they are pals. You can see it in the streets, or wherever you go. There is no sense of the special Army ranks prevailing among those men at all. Take the men who have enlisted in the Royal Irish Constabulary. What is the position? They are all ex-service men. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman can tell me whether it is an officer, an inspector, or merely a sergeant who is in charge; but the fact remains that you get a large number of these seasoned veterans who have been in the Army; you get them together and give them rifles, or in the case of the Auxiliaries you give them revolvers, and they will not submit to the ordinary discipline of the Army. If there had been ordinary discipline, would it have been possible for us to have seen the sight we saw at a certain railway station? Between 20 and 30 Auxiliaries came to the station. While we were standing there they came, many of them under the influence of drink. I remember seeing four of them reeling from one side of the platform to the other; one man lurched on his musket. There was a British military officer on the platform; he went off to the other end, almost at the double. There were military police in the centre of the platform. They went to the other end out of the way. One had a feeling of utter helplessness in the presence of these men, who are being paid 10s. a day and kept by the British nation and provided with arms. Every man had a rifle and had come from some outlying village. What can be the state of people in cottages and villages if placed in charge of a body of men like that? Everyone of us felt helpless. The men went into the refreshment room, and demanded and got more refreshment.
What would have been the position of police in this country if armed and in that condition? I think I know that there would not only have been severe punishment of them but there would have been great indignation amongst the people of this country, but the punishment to which the men would have been subjected would not have been as great as the shame to which the force would have been subjected as a result of some of their number being found in such a condition. When men have got to that point, when they can openly present themselves in the streets and in public places in that condition, it is impossible to bring that kind of force to heel and to discipline in the ordinary way. The men have had too much freedom. They were sent there deliberately to perform a given task, and were given a free hand with a promise of condonation. That must have been so, or they could not have been guilty of the things we saw and heard of in Ireland. I do not want to overstate the case, but I will say this: that we have to make it clear, whether from this side of the House or that, that there is no quarter to be given to the system which is known as Black and Tanism or the Auxiliaries. There will be no peace, no real spirit of conciliation prevailing, until those people are withdrawn, whether you add them to the military forces or take any other course. Even from the point of view of carrying out the policy of the Chief Secretary, if I were a Member on the other side of the House, from the point of view of inefficiency, or ignorance of mass psychology, it would be possible to make an indictment against the right hon. Gentleman's policy which would be sufficient to undermine any Government representative. Not only would I not trust the force, because it is sent to Ireland with a deliberate purpose and promise, but I would not trust the staff behind the right hon. Gentleman which supplies him with his explanations to this House. This is not merely a matter of the relations between this country and Ireland. It is a matter of the relations of the right hon. Gentleman and responsible Ministers of the Crown to this House; and I say that, although they may have been innocent, they have misled this House woefully, as they have misled the country, on important matters which vitally affect the honour of the country.
Take the case of the Attorney-General for Ireland. I was in Cork one day at the beginning of the week of the great fires, when three shops were looted and partly destroyed, and a certain amount of money was taken away. The hon. Member for the Scotland division (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) asked a question in the House about it. That afternoon a shopkeeper of Cork came to the Labour Commission and complained of what had taken place. He was treated disgracefully by a responsible officer of the Auxiliaries. He was put into the cells, but was finally released because there was no proof that he was connected with Sinn Fein and there was nothing against him. His home had been broken up. He had been out all night in spite of Curfew, because he had had to fly from members of the Crown forces. Everything in his house was broken to pieces. He was a humble working man who lived in a two-roomed house, and he will have to spend his years in bringing his little bits of furniture together again. His life was in danger. When the right hon. Gentleman was asked a question about him, he said that the man had used violently inflammatory language to the officer. I happened to have been present, and all the man said was "Come and see what these ruffians have done to my house." The Member for the Scotland division wanted to know whether it was true that the Auxiliaries rushed into three shops on the Monday night, looted them, smashed their contents and the furniture in the houses attached; whether one of the shopkeepers who went to protest to the Labour Commission was arrested by an officer of the Auxiliaries; whether a party of Auxiliaries in Washington Street rushed into the shop of Mr. J. Cudmore, rifled the till, smashed up the place generally, breaking plate-glass windows and glass shelves; whether they afterwards went up to the living rooms, destroying mirrors, chairs and pictures, and throwing loose articles of furniture about; whether in the tobacco and sweet shop of Mr. Kenny, an invalid man, the Auxiliaries ransacked the till and took tobacco, and then went upstairs and ransacked the living rooms; whether on Monday afternoon, in Lower Glanmire Road, John Fleming, who was returning from work with two brothers and a friend, was shot in the abdomen by police in lorries; and whether the Chief Secretary could say when the incendiary fires and the other forms of terrorism in Cork will be brought to an end?
What was the answer of the learned Attorney-General? The Labour Commission saw these shops in Cork on the day this question was asked in the House. The jeweller's shop was empty; it was destroyed inside, and the till was broken open. It was the same with the tobacconist's shop and the confectioner's shop. We were standing at the moment looking at the result of the Crown forces' work, and the right hon. Gentleman, almost at the same time, was telling this to the House:
Take the Chief Secretary himself. He told us a story about a great battle that had been fought, and from the way in which he told it I thought it would sooner or later be found in the next edition of "British Battles by Land and Sea." I remember how he moved the House, and instanced the case of the Ballymacelligott creamery as a reason for the destruction of creameries. This creamery was, he said, twenty yards off the road, and there were seventy men in ambush in the creamery. There was a doctor there, and there was a trench across the road, and he said the trench and the ambuscade were still to be seen, and our brave lads were fired at from that creamery. When he was asked whether the manager of the creamery was arrested he said, "Yes," but I want to tell the right hon. Gentleman that when we were there six weeks later he had not been arrested, and there never was a trench at Ballymacelligott. The right hon. Gentleman says there were seventy men in the creamery, but according to the size of the creamery I can safely say that at least half that number of men could not get in it and use their rifles without doing each other violence. We know that the doctor himself, who was arrested, had been sent for at 12 o'clock, when men had been wounded. He arrived at four o'clock, and because a cinematograph was there, when the right hon. Gentleman's people went in to arrest certain of the men, the doctor was bundled in with the rest and taken to the cells and had subsequently to be released. The Department sent out photographs of this place to the country at large, and the original of the photo of the supposed Ballymacelligott creamery is at least a hundred miles from Ballymacelligott.
9.0 P.M.
So, stage by stage, we were driven to this conclusion, because we tested these facts at Ballymacelligott. What can the right hon. Gentleman expect if, up and down the country, people are calling him names to which, perhaps, he is not entitled? But when he accept responsibility for statements of this kind, the world can understand that people will hit the only one they see with the strongest language they can use. The right hon. Gentleman talks about inquiry into these matters. Here is the case upon which he based the right to destroy creameries. The forces of the Crown in this case took £200 worth of jewellery and notes from a nurse who had served in the War and destroyed part of her brother's ricks and behaved not at all in the spirit of the British soldier towards women. This happened some where in the early part of November, and when we returned at the back end of the year, just before the close of the Session, we asked whether there had been an inquiry, and there had never been any military inquiry into this matter, as admitted by the right hon. Gentleman himself. That was one of the first things we learned on the spot. We say there was no inquiry because the people concerned dare not subject themselves to any inquiry, yet I remember the right hon. Gentleman sweeping this House with emotion on this particular case, and he gave it as a reason for the burning of nearly fifty creameries. I venture to say that there never was an attempt even at an ambush on that occasion, that two men were murdered, that two men were wounded, and when they gave information to us the manager's house itself was burned down a few days after we returned, and two men were shot inside that same house before the burning took place. In face of these things, can the right hon. Gentle man expect us to agree to anything short of the withdrawal of these forces? I go further, and say that the country is wasting money. Hon. Members who talk to us about economy and ask us to say "no" to all children who are asking for an improved type of education and to all people who ask for a higher standard of health, these same hon. Members will go into the Lobby behind the right hon. Gentleman in order to vote some millions of pounds towards the support of this system, which is all going simply to make recruiting sergeants for the Sinn Feiners. That is all the Black and Tans are. Stage by stage they are driving people of all types of opinion, even Unionists, into the ranks of the Sinn Feiners.
I went into a house with the hon. Member for Rothwell (Mr. Lunn), and we heard a story told by an old woman with an air of resignation and simplicity which made it unanswerable. She had five sons, two of whom were admitted to be Sinn Feiners away in some part of Ireland, while three of them lived in Dublin. They had not been home for some time, and the old woman, 65 years of age, and her husband lived together. At midnight the forces of the Crown came to the door and demanded admission. There was a raid. The old man had been somewhat ill, and shuffled his way downstairs in his slippers and opened the door, and the next thing the old lady found when she came after him was the old man lying shot dead inside the door. There was no attempt at a search. There was an inquiry which showed that a man was found shot. That was a simple illustration of what was going on regularly every day. There was no attempt to say that the old man was even a sympathiser with Sinn Feiners, and I want to tell this Committee, as a man who has served in the British Army and who believes in constitutional methods, as a man who hates all kinds of force, I want to say frankly to this Committee that as I listened to this old woman's story, as I saw her bowed shoulders and air of resignation, I said to myself, regardless of what Sinn Fein is, if I were a son of that old woman, if I were true to my very British training, I should be found in arms against the men and the system responsible for that. What does that mean up and down the country? It means that young men and old men alike, Unionists and Protestants, are being driven into the ranks of the Sinn Feiners. The right hon. Gentleman said that the situation is improving. Even the people of this country do not believe that. For every ambush you had three months ago you have twelve to-day. For every Sinn Feiner then, it looks as if there are 100 to-day. The right hon. Gentleman gave illustrations of how the organisation had been broken. It does not take a wise man or a very able man to see that their organisation is more perfect and is working more systematically than ever it did. I say there is no other possible remedy even if the Government have to carry out their own policy than to withdraw the Black and Tans and to withdraw the Auxiliaries from Ireland altogether. If the Government want to have their own policy carried out, at least let it have the virtue of being efficient, and of accomplishing its purpose. I should say it would be a reflection on the British troops and on the Army to amalgamate these men, and, instead of helping the force, I venture to say it will have the counter effect of helping to demoralise the force.
My final word is this. I do not believe, from what I have seen in that country, that you are going to command any sympathy at all until you bring about a truce by some means or other in order to make a favourable atmosphere My right hon. Friend and the right hon. Member for Fife, I am sure, laboured long and hard to bring about a proper atmosphere, and it was almost incredible to us, when the whole atmosphere was vibrating with the feeling and desire of peace, that the reply should have been given, as it was, by the Prime Minister. One can only conclude that, not only the Chief Secretary, but even the Prime Minister himself is scarcely master in his own house, and that some other force and influence dictate what is to be the policy and how long it is to go on. If that is to be the case, then, as the hon. Member for the Falls Division (Mr. Devlin) said this afternoon, this House may be deceived, or may vote in spite of what it knows, but the people will vote according to what they know, and sooner or later the British people will settle this question, and, perhaps, those who are responsible for this policy. I ask the right hon. Gentleman, whatever else he does, not to take the course of linking the Black and Tans with the military, but to choose the swifter and the surer course of taking them out of the country altogether, and making his policy efficient, and so relieve the people of that country of a very great load. I have great pleasure in supporting the reduction.
It is with no small reluctance that I rise to question this Vote. I do not think anyone has more realisation of the profound difficulties of those whose duty it is to carry out administration in Ireland. No one, I think, has greater sympathy and greater admiration for those who have to carry out this difficult task. I know full well that from the Chief Secretary downwards, and all those officials of whom he is at the head at the present moment in the present situation, carry their lives in their hands. I know well that the force which is called the Black and Tans every hour of the day is suffering from the machinations of an organised gang of murderers. I repeat that I have nothing but sympathy and admiration for those who undertake these duties. But there are happenings in Ireland of which one cannot approve. One hates what are called reprisals. My own opinion is that it is impossible to condemn the Black and Tan force for these unfortunate happenings. I do not think myself the force is to blame. Reprisals, to my mind, are the natural sequence of an impossible situation. If blame attaches, it attaches to those in authority who disregard the fact that there is such a thing as human nature. If we had at the present time in Ireland a recognised and acknowledged state of war, by far the larger proportion of those reprisals, or these unfortunate happenings, which take place to-day, would be legitimate, but as we have not a state of war in Ireland, they ought to be condemned. Theoretically that is right, but theory often, I think, ignores the human factor, and although it is wrong, as a matter of fact, I think these happenings can be condoned when we take into consideration the human factor. I quite recognise that the Chief Secretary may be successful in overcoming opposition in Ireland, but I think he will only be successful in driving it underground. I do not think he will be able to do away with it.
The object of us all is to effect, if we can, a permanent settlement of the Irish question, and I think our present policy will not effect that. I believe it will make more difficult in the future the solution of the Irish question. Although the present policy may be momentarily successful, it will make a great deal more difficult the future than the past. It is common ground that we have failed to govern Ireland by the ordinary laws. I think we are failing by extraordinary methods, in spite of the optimism of my right hon. Friend. I do not like opposing my leaders, but, holding such views, I feel it my duty to urge the Government as strongly as I possibly can to review the situation from an outside point of view, to endeavour to get out of what one of my hon. Friends called, this afternoon, the vicious circle, to get out of the rut they are in, and not blindly to follow the idea that our present policy is the only method of dealing with the Irish question. I believe that this question could be dealt with otherwise—that there are methods which would solve this question, and give us some hope of a final settlement of the whole question. Undoubtedly the policy we are following now, whether right or wrong, is tarnishing the reputation of our country throughout the world, and the longer we go on with it the more we shall tarnish it. Not only that, but it is lowering the moral standard of the whole Irish race, and of all those young men we send to Ireland to carry out their duties. It is also lowering the moral standard of the people at home. We read every morning of this terrible situation in Ireland, and of murders taking place, and this seems to be the ordinary morning's news. It is a deplorable situation for a civilised country like our own to look upon a state of things like this almost with indifference. Of course, I do not question the sincerity of the Chief Secretary, or the Government, but the only justification for their action is that they have no doubt whatsoever that their present policy will bring about a final solution of the Irish question, and personally I do not think there is anybody in existence who has not some doubt on this point at the present time. If you have any doubt on this point, then your present policy is wrong.
I know it is never easy to acknowledge failure, and it is difficult for people, especially in high positions, to acknowledge a failure of policy. The historic reputation of our system of government in England has made us a big enough nation to acknowledge failure even in that department in which we have excelled above all other nations, that is in our government. Let us acknowledge that we have failed in Ireland, and try to govern that country in some other way. We need not give way to the absurdity of Irish independence or anything like a republic in Ireland, but I again urge the Government to consider whether some other scheme cannot be devised whereby we can foresee a final solution of the Irish question, and put an end to this daily increasing and growing hatred of the Irish race against our own. Coercion on occasions may be necessary, but it has always been repugnant to British sentiment. The present policy of the Government, I am afraid, can only be described as ineffective coercion, and that is the very acme of failure. For these reasons I regret very much to say that I am unable to follow my leaders this evening.
The interesting speech of my hon. Friend who has just sat down is one to which the Committee has listened with very great interest. I wish, however, that the hon. Member had gone a little further and expounded his views as to what will happen when you cease to maintain the law in Ireland, and I hope on some future occasion the hon. Member will give the Committee the benefit of his views on that point. I cannot help thinking that we are much too much inclined, for sentimental reasons, to express the hope that certain action may be taken without really considering where it is going to land us. In this Debate up to now the Chief Secretary and the Government have been made the subject of an attack. May I point out that if this vote for a reduction is carried it really means that you are deliberately condemning the whole of your men who are upholding law and order in Ireland.
No, no.
That must be the result. To vote for a reduction is one thing, but this reduction must reduce the pay, and therefore you are voting for no confidence in the troops in Ireland. Every attack has been really a vote of non-confidence in the men who are carrying out law and order in Ireland. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] At any rate, when you read the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow you will find from start to finish a charge of lack of discipline in regard to our forces in Ireland, and it is no good pre- tending that those speeches are not attacks upon those who under the most terrible conditions are carrying out our orders.
I protest against the statement that those who are opposed to the policy adopted by the Government are making any attack upon the forces of the Crown in Ireland.
The hon. Member has made his protest in a statesmanlike manner, but I still claim that his vote in the Lobby against the Government will have the effect I have stated. The Noble Lord (Lord H. Cavendish-Bentinck) said that no single individual in this House would contemplate an Irish Republic, and yet in the next breath he went on to say that he was willing to set up a Constituent Assembly in Ireland, and abide by their decision. Does he mean by that an Irish Republic?
I mean a Constituent Assembly with the approval of the Imperial Parliament.
An Assembly like that cannot do what the Noble Lord desires unless it gets the assent of the Imperial Parliament. We all want pease in Ireland, but surely I am not exaggerating when I say that with the present material and conditions is it not almost inevitable that they point to a Republic?
My hon. and gallant Friend forgets that I stated that the Irish leaders had quite lately made a declaration that all they were asking for was what the Dominions demanded.
It is most hopeful that such a statement was made.
I say it is most hopeful. Why not make the most of that hope?
I agree with the Noble Lord, but when he immediately follows and says that he is bound by the Constituent Assembly, you have to remember that at the last Election the Irishmen who were returned were for an Irish Republic. Although the Noble Lord is sincere, I suggest he is really gambling with the fate of Ireland and of the Empire.
My point is that if you gave the right to the Irish people to hold a Constituent Assembly, the moderate element would prevail over the extreme.
I am very glad to hear what the Noble Lord says, and I will not labour the point. We have to realise what are the consequences. When we talk of a conference, the only question I would ask is, With whom? If constitutional Sinn Feiners can really carry their country with them I can see no harm in a conference; but if it is a fact that the men who are actually ordering and conspiring to murder in Ireland are to be the men with whom we are to sit round the table, I say that is not the road to take. I cannot help thinking that those who use moral arguments are not considering quite where that path is going to lead us if we adopt it. The Germans and this country took part in the War, but I do not think it can be suggested that the great European War was precisely the same as this dastardly cut-throat policy in Ireland.
I really rose because I desire to make a protest. We discuss this question here—I am not suggesting we ought not to discuss it very frequently—day after day. Debates take place which have this result, whatever we may think, that they are one prolonged attack on the discipline of the forces which Parliament sends to Ireland in order to uphold the Government. [An HON. MEMBER: "Want of discipline!"] Yes, and the hon. Gentleman agrees that that is the burden of their song. At the time of the General Election there was not one of those hon. Gentlemen, who indulge in these daily attacks, who was not fulsome in his praise of the extraordinary self-discipline of the men in the Army. I do not know how many men there are in Ireland in the Army, the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Auxiliary forces at the present time. Supposing there are 60,000. Does anyone suggest that you can bring this insinuation against any but a very small number?
A very small fraction.
A very small fraction of that great number. The Army is no longer outside national life. Owing to the events of the War, every individual in this country was brought into touch with the Army, and felt almost that he was part of the Army. These daily attacks—and it is not mentioned that it is an extremely small number of the whole who are guilty of acts such as these—are really striking a blow at our national character. I do not believe there is a man here who has had the honour of serving in actual warfare with British troops who does not resent the charges that are brought day after day on this subject, which are reiterated in speeches made here, and are wired all over the world. The right hon. Gentleman this afternoon told us a pathetic and beautiful little story of how a British soldier assisted a German mother. I think the result of his action was that he saved the lives of the children. The same type of man is in Ireland, and I cannot help asking if it is worthy of this House, even though we may not love the Government and all its Members, to attack our soldiers and policemen who are serving there merely in order to carry the fiery torch through the country, possibly, though I can hardly suggest that, with political ends in view.
The question really comes more and more down to that of the Black and Tans, this irregular force. The suggestion was made this afternoon by the hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Mr. E. Wood) and the hon. and gallant Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) that all the forces in Ireland should come under a supreme military authority. I am very doubtful if that would bring in the Royal Irish Constabulary. Their duties are far more than a purely military one They have to look after every imaginable kind of thing—cattle diseases, child health, and so forth. I do not think, however, that that is any reason why the problem should not be considered, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will bring the Black and Tans under military law. I am not at all sure that it would not be for the well-being of the country as a whole. Every day we hear criticism about the Black and Tans, and I want to say a word on their behalf. These men are picked men. It is perfectly true that some of them may be regarded perhaps as rather different from what we call the old officer type in the British Army, because many of them have been promoted from the ranks. They are none the worse for that. I am sure the Labour party would be the first to say that any attack on these men on grounds such as that would be extremely unfair. These men are a mobile force, the force which is used for all the big troubles. At an instant's notice they are transported about from place to place. I would ask the Committee to remember that these men are there with their eyes open, subject to be murdered at sight, day or night. That is the actual fact. We have heard most regrettable charges with regard to a section of these forces. Let us not blind ourselves to the fact that these men, by going to that force at all, have proved themselves to be big heroes, who are not afraid to risk their lives on behalf of their country. Let us at least be fair, and because we see an incident taking place here or there, let us not get up here day after day and condemn them as though they were all guilty.
Take the case of Trim. I venture to say that in regard to this those who took a contrary view to the Government and declaimed against these men, never even waited to inquire whether all the cadets were present they were attacking when the looting took place. May I just give hon. Gentlemen an instance to show how hard it seems that we should go out of our way with this wholesale condemnation. I know a young officer, one of the cadets. I believe he has hot been in Ireland a week. He was one of my officers in the War, and was absolutely as gallant, as steady and as Christian a youth as could be found anywhere in the country, an officer who when his senior officers were wiped out took command of the battalion and brought it out of 'action, winning the Military Cross. He is as fine a man as you would find in the country. Do you want in regard to him to send messages all over the country that he has degraded his honour? You do not wait to ascertain if he was present on that occasion. You take it for granted that a man who belongs to the Black and Tans must be a blackguard. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] At any rate that is the effect of your speeches, and I am very glad to hear that disclaimer. I hope the denial will be reported as widely in the newspapers as have been the speeches of hon. Members who have made these attacks of which I am complaining. While we were discussing this question of looting, which I am sure is condemned by everyone in this House, there were ten men lying dead in Cork, foully murdered. I cannot but think we are creating an impression in the world by our own action in this House that there is only one side to this question. How is the outside world to know the conditions in which these men known aw the Black and Tans are living? According to the Chief Secretary the utmost punishment will be meted out for infractions of discipline. Let us be fair to them, and not condemn the whole force because a very few men are carried away in this manner.
There is another school of thought, the members of which are repeatedly saying that the soldiers are all right, that the Army is all right, and that the trouble is due to these terrible Black and Tans. If that is true, if these Black and Tans are responsible for what is going on in Ireland, how is it that many more soldiers are murdered than Black and Tans? I have heard some of those who attack the Black and Tans say that the Army cannot be criticised in the same way, and that the soldiers are perfectly splendid. Will they tell me then why soldiers are murdered in larger numbers than the Black and Tans?
We all condemn the murders.
I venture to think that the indignation of the hon. and gallant Member when discussing the question of looting is something much greater than that he has shown when condemning the murders that have taken place in Ireland.
That is a very objectionable observation.
An hon. Member said just now that a state of war did not exist in Ireland. Certainly one does not as far as the ordinary ideas of a state of war, as understood in this House, are concerned. But really when, as the night before last, 500 men are suddenly mobilised in a district, the 500 men who attacked and murdered General Gumming, can it be suggested that that is an isolated business and that there is not something in the district which really approximates to a state of war when you have enormous numbers like that in towns and towns and villages who can be brought together by a message sent from a creamery in the morning and mobilised the same evening? It is idle to protest that the inhabitants can give evidence before Courts of Inquiry. One might just as easily have suggested that an inquiry should be held in No Man's land after the British troops had raided the German trenches, as that you can have a fair inquiry in these districts in Ireland. Obviously it is desirable to get the whole facts, but how is it possible, under these circumstances? Have we any right to bring pressure to bear on witnesses to come before the Court when they know that the result may be that they will be killed? In this evening's papers we read of two ghastly murders in Limerick. It makes one think of what happened in older Irish history when men trying to bring reason to bear upon the murderers soon found themselves the victims. Quite recently there have been many crimes in Ireland owing to the fact that men have become more moderate in their opinion, and the result is that we have a state of affairs there which is rapidly growing worse.
I do not believe we are going to solve this question by making concessions and offers at this moment, for the simple reason that I do not believe responsible constitutional leaders in Ireland are in power. Some of us have heard the name of the Deity mentioned in these Debates. Is there a man who really calls himself a Christian who can believe that the British race is going to be strengthened in days to come by sitting round the table with men who are absolutely responsible and have actually ordered in writing the murders which have taken place? I cannot. I believe until we have some such movement in Ireland as will give power to reasonable leaders to sit round a Conference table and really speak for Ireland we have no alternative but to go on doing our utmost to maintain law in Ireland. We must do everything in our power to see that the discipline of those endeavouring to maintain the law is kept at the highest point of efficiency, and that just punishment is meted out to those who break the regulations. I beg hon. Members not to allow our forces in Ireland to be used as a pawn in the political game. Do not drag them into our Debates, as has been done day after day incessantly. Let us slog the Chief Secretary if we like, but let us realise that there are only a very small number—a minute fraction of these men who have failed in their duty, and we have a distinct pledge that they will be punished. Let us try not to defame those who are endeavouring to carry out their duty in perilous times, and let us not give an impression to everyone that this force has not the confidence of the House of Commons.
I join with the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken in his appeal that we should not make the forces of the Crown a pawn in our party game. Let us also, however, give up the habit of sheltering behind the soldiers, and saying that it is the soldiers who are being attacked when really it is the policy of the Government. It is unnecessary for me to repudiate the arguments of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, and I will rather address myself to the speeches during the earlier stages of the Debate. This Debate has witnessed many pilgrimages towards the light, and I think that perhaps the most weary and the most footsore of all those pilgrims is the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary himself. We may be assured of the sincerity of his repentance, for no penitent is ever so sincere as he who has discovered that sin does not pay. This discussion really reflects a certain change of opinion outside this House. Even the Press that is most devoted to the personal cause of the Prime Minister and to the fortunes of the Coalition Government is now advancing stern admonitions to beware of the catastrophe that awaits our present Irish policy. We have found the Sunday "Observer" protesting vociferously against the Irish policy of the right hon. Gentleman. That protest comes from a source whose faith has in the past never faltered or flagged, however widely the right hon. Gentleman's actions might differ from the policy ordained in the issue of the previous Sunday. We find everywhere a growing realisation that some things are taking place in Ireland which disgrace the name of this country; and yet when, last week, I ventured to ask the Prime Minister, as has been detailed by the hon. Member for Scotland Division, certain questions as to the origin of reprisals, and in particular to ask him the specific question whether or not in the first place they received the official sanction of the Government, the Prime Minister refused to answer, and virtually admitted by his silence, as all will agree—[HON. MEM- BERS: "No, no!" and "Hear, hear!"]—that reprisals in the first instance had received the official sanction and authority of His Majesty's Government.
Indeed, it has long been clear from the speeches of Ministers that that was so. Every speech of the Prime Minister and of other Ministers in the early stages of these incidents was a direct incitement to reprisals, and conveyed the definite and absolute assurance that no punishment would be meted out to any who were engaged in them. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!" and "Prove it!"] Well, there is the Prime Minister's speech at Carnarvon, to begin with—a speech which conveyed absolute licence to the forces of the Crown to do what they pleased in Ireland. [HON. MEMBERS: "Quote!"] I am afraid I have not the speech with me, but I have quoted it before in this House, and it has not been disputed. I remember it perfectly well, and what the Prime Minister said in effect was this. He said: "This is an instance of reprisals. A lorry of police comes along a road, and they find lying on the road the bodies of two or three of their comrades, and standing over those bodies they find men with smoking weapons who have just perpetrated a foul and dastardly murder." Then the Prime Minister said: "Can you be surprised that these men should "—[HON. MEMBERS: "Can you?"] No, I am not surprised, and I hope they always would; but the point is that that is not what we mean by reprisals. That is not a reprisal. That was a deliberate and absolute misrepresentation of what reprisals are. At the same time, it conveyed a licence to the forces of the Crown in Ireland to continue reprisals, which are a totally different thing, and were a totally different thing then, from what the Prime Minister represented them to be.
That speech was made nearly three weeks after the sacking of Balbriggan, and it is well known what happened there. The Chief Secretary has admitted these facts arose after the murder of a police inspector. The forces of the Crown visited Balbriggan, burnt, at any rate, a great many houses, pulled two men out of bed, and shot them in cold blood—men as to whom the presumption may well be that they were innocent, for if they were not innocent, they would certainly have taken care to absent themselves from the scene of the outbreak on the previous afternoon. As the Chief Secretary himself said, assassins do not sleep in houses, but live on the bogs and on the hills. Further, according to the Labour Report, which has never yet been refuted, and which the Government dare not refute by an impartial inquiry, women and children were driven out into the fields after the burning of Balbriggan, and as a result two women died, four had miscarriages, and four babies with measles died. That took place three weks before the Prime Minister went to Carnarvon, and advanced that description of reprisals which I have just recited. That was the first of the speeches misrepresenting the entire Irish situation. It not only misled the British public as to the true meaning and nature of reprisals; it conveyed absolute licence to the forces of the Crown to continue reprisals. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] The Prime Minister, when questioned in this House, could not deny that that policy was initiated and sanctioned by the Government, and my hon. and gallant Friend says if there were any further evidence needed as to the Government having initiated and encouraged the policy of reprisals, it can be found in the prolific pages of the "Weekly Summary." I ask hon. Members in this House, who do not agree with us in this matter, to study the back numbers of the "Weekly Summary," that is to say, if they can induce the Chief Secretary to supply them with copies. His refusal to supply me with back numbers of the "Weekly Summary" I can only presume to have been because he was afraid of the use I might make of them.
I assure the hon. Member that I am not afraid of any request which he made. I supplied all the back numbers that I could to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull—
Not the first 13.
I could not supply the hon. Member for Harrow with back numbers, because they did not exist. I wrote to the hon. Member to that effect.
I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman if I misrepresented him. I think that, if he looks at his letter to me, he will find that he did not give any reason, but simply stated that he was unable to supply me with back numbers, and, therefore, I naturally concluded that he refused to do so.
Is it not a fact that, if an hon. Member insists, a copy of the "Weekly Summary" can be forced from the Chief Secretary for Ireland, and was not that the reason why he supplied them to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull?
These papers are not a matter for the Chair.
I think the back numbers of the "Weekly Summary" have been, perhaps wisely, destroyed. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"] If some of them still remain, hon. Members who study those interesting documents will find yet further proof that reprisals have been a deliberate policy on the part of His Majesty's Government. I know it will be quite inconceivable to hon. Members who have not devoted themselves to a very special study of the subject during the last few months that a policy of this sort should have been initiated and carried through by an English Government. It appeared equally inconceivable to myself at first. I think the Government now greatly regret ever embarking on that policy. I am quite certain the Chief Secretary does now wish to restore order and discipline in the forces of the Crown. The trouble is that once you set a ball of that sort rolling, heaven knows where it will end. At present it looks like ending by knocking out for ever any prospects of Irish peace.
This matter can easily be traced to its origin, in a situation of peculiar difficulty with which the Government were faced last summer. Foul and dastardly murders of the forces of the Crown were taking place with increasing frequency, and, owing to the absence of any intelligence system, the Government could obtain no information to use as evidence against the murderers. Therefore the hazardous expedient was conceived of enlisting a special police force. It was done in an abnormally short space of time, by a system of universal advertisements, and it is almost inconceivable that in so short a time proper inquiries could have been made into the qualifications of all who were enlisted. This police force having been enlisted, it was organised in a manner altogether without precedent. The men were scattered, apparently in isolated detachments, throughout Ireland, with no proper central control so far as can be judged, and then they were constantly served with inflammatory publications of the nature of the "Weekly Summary," and were also regaled with speeches by Ministers in England condoning and encouraging reprisals, after genuine outbreaks of passion had occurred in one or two instances which had led to incidents of the nature described as reprisals. So the whole terrible breakdown of discipline in Ireland began. The object was to render the people of Ireland more frightened of the forces of the Crown than they were of the Sinn Fein murderers. The Chief Secretary has said time after time that these outrages began with a very small section of the Irish people, who subjected to their will the vast mass of the pacific population of the country, and no evidence could be obtained against them. Obviously, if the forces of the Crown were held in greater terror than the forces of Sinn Fein, evidence would be forthcoming against Sinn Fein. The very reverse of that result has been attained. The only result has been to drive hundreds into the ranks of Sinn Fein.
Archbishop Clune, who was entrusted by the Prime Minister with the delicate task of acting as intermediary between the Government and the leaders of Sinn Fein, described the effect of reprisals to me, personally, before he ever saw the Prime Minister on this matter. He said in effect:
And you endorse it?
From my information, I do.
And yet you say you do not attack British soldiers in Ireland.
10.0 P.M.
My hon. and gallant Friend, was so immersed in the aftereffects of his own eloquence, that he omitted to listen to the few remarks in repudiation of his own suggestion with which I opened my speech. If I may return to the speech of Archbishop Clune, I would remind Members of how he was described by the Prime Minister on the opening day of this Session. He said then of Archbishop Clune:
It is obvious that a policy of that sort was doomed to be frustrated. It could not by any conceivable chance hit or hurt the assassins in any way whatsoever. At the time that all these towns were being sacked and men were being pulled out of their beds and shot, the Chief Secretary was proclaiming in this House that the murderers were on the run, that they never slept two nights together in the same bed, that they came down from the hills into a village, committed a murder and slipped back to the hills again. If that were so, what on earth was the object of burning down next day the houses of innocent people in the vicinity of the outrage? As Archbishop Clune has said, the only result was to drive hundreds of young Irishmen into the arms of Sinn Fein. The result has been that instead of having half a dozen men in ambushes, as in the early days, you have to-day a hundred or more men in ambush. In the early days we were given to understand these murders were usually the work of isolated gunmen, very often of American extraction, who could kill with a revolver at 40 yards range. To-day these ambushes are composed of a military organisation comprising 100 men. Every young man who knows that his life is forfeit and whose home has been outraged has been driven into the hands of military Sinn Fein. There can be little or no doubt that if the ordinary processes of civil life, in conjunction with a proper intelligence system, had been utilised in the first instance, the whole of the murder movement would long ago have been inside His Majesty's gaols and so have found a very proper destination on the scaffold. So, in the final resort, reprisals have proved, not only an unsuccessful, but a stupid policy, and that is the thing that astonishes me more than anything else. I am not astonished to find the Government and the Prime Minister committed to a wicked policy, but I am astonished to find them committed to a thoroughly stupid policy. In the light of this failure, the Government have now receded from the original position of justification and encouragement of reprisals, and the Chief Secretary him self is leading the stampede. He is being admirably supported by many of his hon. Friends who assure him of their support in suppressing the policy of reprisals. We find the Coalition Liberals passing or considering Resolutions condemning murder in Ireland and also reprisals and assuring the Government of their whole-hearted support in whatever measures may be necessary to suppress murder. Surely that evokes some sense of the ludicrous, even in the breast of a Coalition Liberal. It is to me as if a man was standing his trial for murder, the case against him was proved up to the hilt, and he was giving the judge and jury his assurance that they could depend upon his whole-hearted support in suppressing the very crime of which he himself had been convicted. The Government have never defended themselves in this matter. Their only defence has been to recite the crimes of Sinn Fein, as if the crimes of Sinn Fein were an excuse for the crimes of the English Government. It is merely an argument that two blacks make a white.
I believe that the Government's administration in Ireland to-day is striking at the very roots of human existence. I believe they are traversing and challenging the immutable laws that have governed the destinies of man from the very infancy of the human race, that the trustees of civilisation cannot commit murder with impunity as they have committed murder, and that they cannot make war on women and children as they have made war on women and children, and have driven them starving out into the night. In the light of that fact the crimes of Sinn Fein, horrible and terrible as they are, are a less indelible blot upon the features of humanity than the scar which has been wrought by the weapons of murder in the hands of British Government, and for this reason, that we are accustomed to see the weapons of murder in the hands of the assassin, but not in the hands of a British Government. That is the appalling spectacle which to-day shocks the conscience of the civilised world—the spectacle of the weapons of murder wielded in the hitherto sacred hands of the British Government. And what a Government it is! [ Laughter. ] I know it is the well-ordered rule of some hon. Members of this House not to participate in a reasoned discussion, but rather to attend these Debates for the purpose of howling down those whose views are not in accordance with the Treasury Bench. But I will proceed, with the leave of the House, with my argument, unperturbed by the monosyllabic interjections of the otherwise inarticulate. What a Government! A Government that for months has lived in this House with denials on its lips and blood on its hands—a Government which from the beginning has organised a system which rivals, and in some respects eclipses, as Archbishop Clune says, the system which this Government was given the power to overthrow in Europe. That is the Government that is governing England, and misgoverning Ireland, and which stands silent and convicted before the tribunal of world opinion.
I wish to associate myself with the speeches that were made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ripon (Mr. E. Wood) this afternoon, and to address myself for a moment or two to that particular side of the question. Before I do so, I should like to make one comment on the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Croft) who recently led a party in this House. If rumour does not lie, I understand that that party has been disbanded. If that is so, I can hardly congratulate the Government upon the defence and the assistance which they received from him to-day in his new rôle as a loyal supporter of the Front Bench. The point in his speech to which I took exception was this. He seems to think that on an occasion of this sort, when the House is in Committee to consider supply, it is not a proper occasion for calling in question the administration of the Department under discussion. If ever there is an occasion when the particular point of administration should be discussed, none is more appropriate than the present, and it is particularly the question of whether that section of the forces in Ireland which are particularly complained of should remain as a force or should come under another authority, which I think is the main question and which it is quite proper to discuss to-day. Although I do not want to introduce anything that is essentially controversial other than to express quite a strong view on that particular point, I think we are entitled to comment without heat upon some change in the attitude of the Chief Secretary himself upon this question. Reference has been made already to the question as to whether or not this particular force, recruited in times of great difficulty, did or did not receive any direct or even passing encouragement from speeches made by Ministers. Those who have criticised the policy of the Government have been accused of encouraging and surrendering to crime. I think it is also true to say that those who make speeches in the country and in the House which appear to make excuses for reprisals are doing something to encourage reprisals, and not to exercise due discipline. Reference has been made to the speech of the Prime Minister at Carnarvon, and the speaker was asked to quote the words. I happened to refresh my memory with the words and for the sake of greater accuracy to commit them to paper. I find these are some of the expressions made by the Prime Minister in dealing with the actions of the parti- cular men whose conduct we are now discussing, not from the point of view of discussing or criticising the force as a whole, but of criticising those acts which are complained of and of which there has been evidence which to-day is admitted.
The Prime Minister said: that. But should I not expect to be punished for it? Should I not expect condemnation in a disciplined force from the head of the Government? I think the Chief Secretary has come to realise that in his speeches. I gladly recognise that the difficulties of the situation are far too great for there to be any levity, for there to be any charges which are simply party charges. The matter is far too serious for the honour of this country, and I hope he realises that it is in nothing but that spirit that I rise to say a word on the subject; but I appeal to him to look into the question which has been raised to-day and see if it is not possible, however difficult it may be, however far he is committed to the contrary or thinks he is committed to the contrary, to see if it is not possible for the sake of the conduct of administration in Ireland even under these difficult circumstances either to remove this special auxiliary force from the country or to put it under military control, so that there shall be no mistake about the discipline under which they act, and it shall not be possible that incidents such as the Tudor-Crozier incident should arise. I urge the Government to take that line, and to make certain that there is, not only in words and protestations from the Front Bench, an intention to stop indiscipline, but that they will prove their words by putting that force to other uses in other parts of the world, or put them under control which will be such that they will no longer be able to indulge in anything in the nature of indiscipline.
I had not intended to say anything about the ultimate responsibility of the Government for the state of things which is now admitted to exist in reference to reprisals, but it is evident that there are a good many hon. Members who are still in doubt upon the subject. I desire to ask them—and it is not much for so serious a matter—to look carefully at the sequence of events; the fact that there were no reprisals until a certain date; the fact that there was a public statement in more than one newspaper that the reprisals were sanctioned at a particular time; the fact that after that time reprisals became frequent; and the fact that, though the Government have been repeatedly challenged in this House—on the last occasion in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow (Mr. Mosley)—to deny that fact, they have never done so. I remember challenging them myself in October and expressing at the time my disbelief of the truth of the story, and asking them, in order to satisfy those who doubted, to deny it, and they did not. This matter was called to their attention over and over again, and not only so, but the Government speeches last autumn were so moderate in their condemnation of reprisals that they amounted to an incitement to go on with that policy. I do not desire to go into that, and I should not have done so except for the events that have taken place in this Committee in the last few minutes.
I gladly admit that whatever may have been the case in times past the speech of the Chief Secretary this evening was in a very different note. He acknowledged, and I was very glad to hear him acknowledge, in the fullest way that there was no ground for the charge that those who criticised the Government's policy in this respect were the apologists or defenders of Sinn Fein murder. That is a charge that ought never to have been made. [HON. MEMBERS: "It was not made!"] It was made, and I am very glad that we shall never hear any more of it, at any rate in this House. I was also glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman that he recognises—I think I have got his exact words—that in this matter the standard of the Government must be the highest possible, and that there must be no suggestion that provocation is an excuse for crime on the part of the armed forces of the Crown. That is what I have always believed and strongly upheld, on the ground that it is an absolutely disastrous doctrine; but, unfortunately, it had some palliation in the speeches delivered from the Government Bench in the autumn.
I want to say a word a out the Chief Secretary's difficulty in regard to providing damages for those who have suffered. I recognise that he is in a legal difficulty in the matter, but I do ask him and the Government—I do not ask for any expression of opinion now—to consider the matter again very carefully. The position is really anxious and serious. I do not know, though probably he does, what the extent of the damage for instance in Cork has been, but it must run into hundreds of thousands of pounds: it may run into millions. It is really fantastic to suggest that it can be paid for by the rates. It cannot. It is absurd, and now that we have it practically admitted that it was due to the Government forces, is it really a position that the Government can afford to take up that, their forces having inflicted damage on subjects of the Crown, many of them Unionists, running into hundreds of thousands of pounds, they are not to receive compensation at all? I do not think, if you consider what has been done in war time, that the Government can really occupy that position permanently. Somebody wrote, to me this morning about a particular ease. I do not think it is worth while troubling the Committee with it. It does not differ from any other case, where the man consults a solicitor, and the solicitor makes a general claim running into very large sums for a man in that position, and there is no dispute at all that it was done by the armed forces of the Crown—nobody can dispute it for a moment—and quite unjustifiably, done on evidence furnished by a certain Patrick Fox who appears to have been absolutely unreliable and there is no serious suggestion that the man who suffered is even a Sinn Feiner. I do not think really that we can sustain the position that that kind of thing can be done by officers of the Government nominally, apparently, acting in the discharge of their duties, not really—as the Chief Secretary rightly points out, the Government are not really responsible for a felony—but still apparently acting in discharge of their duties as agents of the Government and inflicting very grave injury on a private individual. The Government cannot really stand by it and not pay any compensation at all.
I do not think that it is really necessary, but I do want, for my own satisfaction, if I may, to make my own position in this matter quite clear. I recognise the fundamental principle that underlies the criminal law of this country, namely, that crime must be forcibly prevented and forcibly punished that you are entitled to and, indeed bound to repel force by force. I do not doubt that. I never have doubted it. I have done my best to show by my acts and speeches in this House that I abide by that as fully with reference to Ireland as to any other part of His Majesty's Dominions. I voted for the Restoration of Order Bill. I have repeatedly pressed the Government in the early stages to take strong action against the criminal conspiracy that raged this time last year. I did all I could, but I do equally protest now. I do not think it is necessary, though it was a few weeks ago, to argue against the doctrine that you can repel violence by violence, and that you can have any such thing as can possibly be characterised by one of the judges of the Crown as a competition in crime between the forces of the Government and the forces of disorder. That is a horrible doctrine and one that cannot be defended, and I am bound to point out, although you know it well enough, what the Chief Secretary himself very truly says is the extremely serious position in Ireland at present.
We read in this morning's paper of the terrible ambush in which a very gallant officer has unhappily lost his life, and in this evening's paper we read of two equally heinous murders in Limerick—[HON. MEMBERS: "Three!"]—apparently a type or murder with which we are only too familiar. The house of the Mayor of Limerick is entered by armed and disguised men, and the Mayor is either pulled out of his bed or in some way brought before them and shot without the slightest justification. These are terrible things to be happening. I am sorry to say it, but I do not think any reasonable, impartial person can deny, not only that we have these horrible crimes committed by the Sinn Feiners, not only that we have the miserable excuse given that they are done in open warfare, but that we have had a regular series of crimes, I am afraid we must say, reasonably believed to have been carried out by forces of the Crown. Murder, arson, looting, and recently I have heard—I hope and trust the Chief Secretary will give the most stringent orders to prevent any such thing being done—I have heard terrible stories of the ill-treatment of unconvicted and even of uncharged persons with the object of obtaining evidence. I cannot imagine a more idiotic method, apart from its cruelty, because, of course, it leads to false information and evidence, sometimes given for the deliberate purpose of exposing people who are either harmless or may be even friendly to the Government to ill-treatment and murder. The hon. Member for the Scotland Division said very truly that in this country we had abandoned torture as a means of obtaining evidence, not only because it was wicked but because it was a singularly unsuccessful method of proceeding. Evidence given under torture is four times out of five false evidence, and when the Prime Minister said at the beginning of the Session that the Government were getting more evidence and took credit to the Government for the fact, I only hope and trust he had not in his mind's eye evidence obtained by any such method as that.
May I interrupt? This is a very important point. I have no knowledge of any verifiable case of what is called torture.
Can you deny it?
Yes. We had a case in which a young man said he had been badly treated. It was mentioned in a newspaper. The editor and owners of the paper were accused before a military tribunal for publishing a false and faked photograph and the Court held that the man had not suffered from the torture he had alleged.
The doctors all swore that they had seen his back.
The doctor or doctors did say that the man had marks on his back, but that is no evidence that the man was tortured. It is a very serious matter. I want to assure the Noble Lord that I agree heartily with what he said, that it is incredible that any officer of the Government should be either so brutal or so stupid as to torture any person for any purpose whatever. In these matters, if general allegations would become specific we would inquire.
And then suppress the report!
If my hon. Friend wants to help me he will get away from generalities. If he wants to deal only with generalities he cannot help me. In any of these accusations I would get a doctor of the military forces or two doctors or more—
Why not a civil doctor?
I am not dependent entirely on the police or police doctors and I would not object to civilian doctors, but I would like to have a specific case, so that in the interest of my own administration I could clear the name of the vast majority of the servants of the Crown of this horrible allegation.
In making that request the right hon. Gentleman has a great deal of force behind him. I feel myself that, if I were in his position, I should say: "How can I inquire into these charges unless you give me the names?' Quite true, but unhappily the condition in Ireland is such that people will not give names.
Then why make charges?
Because the evidence has been given to me.
Give it to the Committee.
I cannot, because I am not allowed. I make the charge because I am quite certain that we have had enough of these stories being spread about. We are told there is no evidence; then, somehow or another, an inquiry is held and the charges are proved to the hilt, and if action had been taken earlier it may be that the events, which we all deplore, would never have occurred. Why will you not inquire?
We have inquired, and they have been shown to be false.
I make these statements because I think it is of vital importance to the whole reputation of the country to prevent these charges, which the Chief Secretary knows are being made, by people who may be mistaken, I quite agree, but who are people of perfectly good faith, and it really is essential that this thing should be definitely stopped. I am afraid I must say that, as far as the evidence is in my possession, the failure of the Irish Government has so far been very serious, and I cannot help feeling that their failure in this vital duty of enforcing law and order has been due to the fact that they have disregarded the principles which have been established for many years by the experience and wisdom of the ages, and which ought to have been more carefully observed. As far as reprisals are concerned, there is now no dispute. Reprisals are not only wicked, but utterly ineffective for the purpose of stopping crime. There is a certain impression abroad that when a crime is committed the great thing is to punish somebody. That is utterly untrue. It is no use punishing anybody unless you punish the guilty; if your punishment falls on the innocent, you not only do not deter crime, but you make people say: "What is the use of being innocent? We are going to be punished all the same, and we might just as well be guilty." Reprisals are not only wicked, but foolish. I think that very severe punishment has been shown by the experience of the world to be also very foolish. Before the beginning of the 19th century, punishment was very severe in this country. All sorts of petty crimes were punishable with the death penalty—sheep stealing and a number of other things. What was the result? Not greater freedom from crime, but much more crime, and according as the criminal code of this country was made more humane crime diminished, and that is reasonable when you think of it. Our old proverb, "As well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb," expresses the real view of the criminal. If he is going to be hung anyhow for the possession of a revolver, why not join the Irish Republican Army? That is the real way these very severe punishments operate. I am quite ready to believe—I do not want to be in the least unfair—that the man who was hung for the possession of a revolver the Government had reason to believe was guilty of a much more serious crime than that, but I cannot think that is a good reason really for such action as that. If the Government have to explain perpetually why it has done something, be certain of it, its action is exceedingly unwise. People know the facts, but they do not pay any attention to the explanation. Let me go one step further. I am only trying to lay down the principles which, I believe, were generally accepted. I am not prepared to say that in all cases, and under all circumstances, general punishments, by which I mean punishments of a district, are indefensible, but they are very difficult to carry out successfully. You must almost inevitably punish some people who are not guilty of anything. The words of the Prime Minister in the Boer War are familiar to everybody, and although I did not agree with its application on that occasion with the principles which he laid down, I suppose, nobody would quarrel. If you are going to make general punishments, they should be of a nature to hit the whole district. Your defence of general punishments is that the people of the district ought to have assisted in the maintenance of the law; they must have known, or might have known, something about the crime. It is no use burning a house here and there; that does not do any good. It is a mere chance that you hit on the guilty person, and the only result is that a number of people get off without any punishment at all, and one or two people are punished very severely. The burning of houses seems to me a very bad form of punishment. It drives the young men who lived in the houses, supposing they cannot get any lodging elsewhere, out on the hills and the mountains. What is their frame of mind if they fall in with a detachment of the Irish Republican Army? It is a temptation to them to desert their allegiance and become rebels. If you are going to have general punishments, they should be used very sparingly and with the greatest care, and they should be real general punishments, which should fall, not necessarily severely, but on all the inhabitants equally.
Finally—and this is the great principle I would venture to lay down—if you are going to have successful repression, the most important thing is publicity. It is really vital. If you carry on a trial behind closed doors and only give the final result of condemnation or acquittal, everybody will suspect something is wrong. It is human nature.
Trials for capital offences are always public.
Is the whole trial public?
Yes.
Then the position of the Government seems more indefensible than I thought, because the only reason for not making these trials public is for fear of danger to the witnesses. But if you make public the trial which will impose the greatest penalty, what reason can there be for not making other trials public?
Capital offences are always tried in public, but the wit- nesses are disguised, and their names are never published. The taking of life by law is the most serious thing in the administration of the Government, and it is felt that these trials should be made public; but again and again witnesses have been murdered on their way to the trial or after the trial, and we do the best we can to conceal their identity by never publishing the names, and in many cases by removing them out of Ireland altogether.
I have nothing to say against these precautions. They are very proper, though I am not prepared to say they are the best precautions. Whether they are the best precautions or not, they seem equally applicable to all trials, and I venture to press very strongly what I was very glad to hear either the Chief Secretary or the Leader of the House say the other day, that you cannot govern Ireland or any country successfully unless you get behind you the support of a large proportion of the population. The thing is impossible. If the whole population is against you, I do not care what you do, you will never govern the country successfully. Therefore your great object should have been to separate as far as possible the pure criminals and the gunmen from the rest of the population. That is what I am very much afraid the Government have failed to do. Unless my information is entirely wrong—and it only comes tome as a private individual—so far from separating these people you have made the whole population sympathetic with the criminals. That is a terrible result, and I cannot help feeling that one of the main reasons for it is this passion for secrecy, which is one of the most disastrous legacies from the War which has impeded us, not only in Ireland, but in other spheres. I ask the Government to throw aside all this fantastic paraphernalia of secrecy. I would like them to have a full and open inquiry in order to restore confidence, not only in Ireland, but also in England, because you can only do that by complete openness. I am not at all convinced that inquiry would impair the morale of the police force. I quite agree with the Chief Secretary when he says that only a small proportion of the police have been guilty of these offences, but it would not injure the rest of the force to have their characters cleared by an inquiry. In many cases there ought to be far greater publicity given to the results of the inquiries which have been held. The Strickland Report was undertaken to set our doubts at rest, but the result was heartbreaking, and to refuse publication of the Report was a terrible mistake.
I have been asked what I would suggest as a better way of dealing with the more serious offences. I have never seen why they should not have been brought over here and tried in England. I remember that once the Lord President of the Council had an analogous situation to deal with, and I see no reason why this should not be done. You could have had a civil tribunal which would have given complete confidence in this country. We have, thank Heaven, in this country, as one of our greatest possessions, a criminal administration which has the absolute confidence of everybody in this country. I have stated what I wanted to about the forms of general punishment. I am in great sympathy with the hon. Member for Ripon (Mr. E. Wood) and the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) in their desire that all the armed forces should be put under military law. I do not understand that to mean the declaration of martial law all over Ireland. The Chief Secretary has promised this suggestion his sympathetic consideration. The thing that is intolerable at the present time is that we do not know who is actually responsible for what goes on. The relation between General Tudor and General Macready, and between the latter and the Chief Secretary, ought to be swept away and a much simpler system should be adopted. You should not have three armed bodies and you must have unity of command just as we found that we had to have in the War. I am not going to say any more about the final settlement of Ireland. You, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, have been good enough to rule that any detailed discussion on that would be out of order. I am one of those who think that the essential preliminary to any real discussion, to any real settlement, must be the re-establishment of normal conditions of government in Ireland. [HON. MEMBERS: "How are we to get it?"]
By a change in Government.
It is quite certain that you will not get a final settlement of the Irish Question under existing conditions. I am quite sure that before you will get fairly considered your final proposals, whatever they are going to be, you must get a more peaceful atmosphere there. That does not mean that you should not make proposals for ultimate consideration. I would go very far, indeed, if I thought that it would produce real peace in Ireland. The situation is far too serious, as the Chief Secretary knows, to boggle about with this or that detail of political prudery. The essential interests of this country must be safeguarded. With that limit, I do not know that there is any form of settlement which I would dismiss out of hand. For I believe that ultimately Government is impossible without the consent of the governed, and that you must endeavour, to secure their consent, to show, in the first place, that your Administration is rigidly and justly impartial; and that, in the second place, you must have sufficient vision and imagination to see what is really necessary for the wellbeing and the safety of those who are under your control.
In answer to the question raised by the Noble Lord, which is a vital one, may I say that with the latter part of his speech I am in full accord. With regard to the courts, we considered every possible court in Ireland—the civil courts in Ireland, and also the reference of important cases to courts in England. We came to the conclusion that the court of British officers in Ireland would be the most courageous and the most impartial court possible under the circumstances in Ireland. I see nothing in their decisions to make me change my opinion of their courage, their integrity, and their fair-mindedness. These courts-martial try all crimes, and it is the rarest thing to have one of these courts closed to the public or the Press. If a witness says, "I shall not give evidence unless you close the court," then the president of the court is justified in doing it. As a rule, however, the witness is content with the promise that his name will not be disclosed, and we trust to the honour of everyone in the court not to disclose it. Every accused person in the court is entitled to legal assistance; many of them take it, and in capital cases they always take it. I want to make that statement to assure the Noble Lord and the Committee that there is no concealment in this matter of courts. The Irish Press is full of the decisions and the evidence given in these courts; the English Press, naturally, does not fill its columns with these cases to that extent. There is no desire to conceal. I submit that the court is as open as it can be, having regard to the safety of the tribunal itself, and the witnesses, who give evidence under great difficulty, and frequently under dangers, and that the decisions are fair, and, if anything, lean as much on the side of leniency, as any tribunal of Britishers, civil or military.
Does that statement apply to inquiries in lieu of coroners' inquests?
Military inquiries in lieu of coroners' inquests are inquiries where the dependants of the bereaved—
Are they held in public?
No, but the findings are made public. People would not give evidence if the inquiries were held in public. But the findings are registered with the registrar of deaths and they show the cause of death. Persons interested can attend and can be legally represented. I can assure the Committee there is nothing secret about these inquiries in the sense of that which is sinister. They are made secret in the interest of those who give evidence and I may add, in view of the murder of General Cumming only yesterday, in the interest of the military members of these tribunals whose lives are forfeited because of the work they do.
Several hon. Members having risen —
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 216; Noes, 61.
Division No. 20.] AYES. [11.0 p.m. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Hickman, Brig.-General Thomas E. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Hills, Major John Waller Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hinds, John Atkey, A. R. Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Curzon, Commander Viscount Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Balfour, George (Hampstead) Davidson, J. C. C. (Kernel Hempstead) Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Barlow, Sir Montague Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Hopkins, John W. W. Barnett, Major R. W. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Hopkinson, Dr. E. (M'chest'r, Cl'yton) Barnston, Major Harry Edgar, Clifford B. Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Evans, Ernest Hurd, Percy A. Bennett Sir Thomas Jewell Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Betterton, Henry B. Falcon, Captain Michael Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Bigland, Alfred Foreman, Sir Henry Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Blake, Sir Francis Douglas Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Berwick, Major G. O. Ganzoni, Captain Sir F. J. C. Jesson, C. Bowles, Colonel H. F. Gardiner, James Jodrell, Neville Paul Bowyer, Captain G. E. W Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Brassey, Major H. L. C. Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Broad, Thomas Tucker Glyn, Major Ralph Jones, Henry Haydn, (Merioneth) Brown, Captain D. C. Gould, James C. Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Bruton, Sir James Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Kidd, James Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) King, Captain Henry Douglas Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Butcher, Sir John George Gregory, Holman Lewis, T. A. (Glam. Pontypridd) Campbell, J. D. G. Greig, Colonel James William Lindsay, William Arthur Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Gretton, Colonel John Lloyd, George Butler Carr, W. Theodore Gritten, W. G. Howard Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Casey, T. W. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Hallwood, Augustine Loseby, Captain C. E. Chadwick, Sir Robert Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Lynn, R. J. Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by) Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Churchman, Sir Arthur Hambro, Captain Angus Valdemar McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern) Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Hamilton, Major C. G. C. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Clough, Robert Hanson, Sir Charles Augustin Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Coats, Sir Stuart Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Marks, Sir George Croydon Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Mason, Robert Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Meysey-Thompson, Lieut.-Col. E. C. Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Middlebrook, Sir William Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Mitchell, William Lane Moles, Thomas Purchase, H. G. Taylor, J. Molson, Major John Elsdale Ramsden, G. T. Terrell, George (Wilts., Chippenham) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M. Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley) Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Thorpe, Captain John Henry Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Reid, D. D. Townley, Maximilian G. Morden, Lieut.-Col. W. Grant Remnant, Sir James Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Morrison, Hugh Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Roundell, Colonel R. F. Ward, William Dudley (Southampton). Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Watson, Captain John Bertrand Murray, John (Leeds, West) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Neal, Arthur Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Wigan, Brig.-Gen. John Tyson Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Seddon, J. A. Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.) Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Simm, M. T. Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbrdge) O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington) Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Winterton, Earl Parker, James Stanier, Captain Sir Beville Wise, Frederick Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Steel, Major S. Strang Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Perkins, Walter Frank Stewart, Gershom Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Perring, William George Sugden, W. H. Younger, Sir George Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Poison, Sir Thomas Sutherland, Sir William TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Pratt, John William Sykes, Colonel Sir A. J. (Knutsford) Lord E. Talbot and Captain Guest.
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. F. D. Hartshorn, Vernon Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hayday, Arthur Royce, William Stapleton Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes) Sexton, James Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish Hirst, G. H. Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hogge, James Myles Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Briant, Frank Holmes, J. Stanley Sitch, Charles H. Cairns, John Irving, Dan Swan, J. E. Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) John, William (Rhondda, West) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Tootill, Robert Donnelly, P. Kenyon, Barnet Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Kiley, James D. White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) Lawson, John J. Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Entwistle, Major C. F. Lunn, William Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) Galbraith, Samuel Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Wilson, J. Glanville, Harold James Mills, John Edmund Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Morgan, Major D. Watts Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Mosley, Oswald Grundy, T. W. Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness and Ross) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Myers, Thomas Mr. T. P. O'Connor and Mr. Devlin. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Newbould, Alfred Ernest Hancock, John George Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Question put accordingly, "That a sum not exceeding £1,368,700 be granted for the said Service."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 67; Noes, 209.
Division No. 21.] AYES. [11.8 p.m. Acland, Rt. Hon. F. D. Grundy, T. W. Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Mills, John Edmund Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Morgan, Major D. Watts Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish Hancock, John George Mosley, Oswald Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hartshorn, Vernon Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness and Ross) Briant, Frank Hayday, Arthur Myers, Thomas Cairns, John Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes) Newbould, Alfred Ernest Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Hinds, John Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Hirst, G. H. Poison, Sir Thomas Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Hogge, James Myles Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) Holmes, J. Stanley Royce, William Stapleton Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Irving, Dan Sexton, James Donnelly, P. John, William (Rhondda, West) Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Sitch, Charles H. Entwistle, Major C. F. Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Swan, J. E. Galbraith, Samuel Kenyon, Barnet Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Glanville, Harold James Kiley, James D. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Lawson, John J. Tootill, Robert Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Lunn, William Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Wilson, J. Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Mr. T. P. O'Connor and Mr. Devlin.
NOES. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Gretton, Colonel John Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Gritten, W. G. Howard Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M.S. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Atkey, A. R. Hallwood, Augustine Oman, Sir Charles William C. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L. Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Hambro, Captain Angus Valdemar Parker, James Barlow, Sir Montague Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Barnett, Major R. W. Hanson, Sir Charles Augustin Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Barnston, Major Harry Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Perkins, Walter Frank Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Perring, William George Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Pratt, John William Betterton, Henry B. Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Purchase, H. G. Bigland, Alfred Hickman, Brig.-General Thomas E. Ramsden, G. T. Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Hills, Major John Waller Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Blake, Sir Francis Douglas Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Berwick, Major G. O. Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Bowles, Colonel H. F. Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Reid, D. D. Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Hopkins, John W. W. Remnant, Sir James Brassey, Major H. L. C. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Broad, Thomas Tucker Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Brown, Captain D. C. Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Bruton, Sir James Hurd, Percy A. Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Butcher, Sir John George Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Campbell, J. D. G. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Jodrell, Neville Paul Seddon, J. A. Carr, W. Theodore Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Casey, T. W. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Simm, M. T. Chadwick, Sir Robert Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Churchman, Sir Arthur Kidd, James Stanier, Captain Sir Seville Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender King, Captain Henry Douglas Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Clough, Robert Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Steel, Major S. Strang Coats, Sir Stuart Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Lindsay, William Arthur Stewart, Gershom Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Lloyd, George Butler Sugden, W. H. Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Sutherland, Sir William Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Loseby, Captain C. E. Sykes, Colonel Sir A. J. (Knutsford) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lynn, R. J. Taylor, J. Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham) Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern) Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Thorpe, Captain John Henry Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Marks, Sir George Croydon Townley, Maximilian G. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Mason, Robert Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Edgar, Clifford B. Meysey-Thompson, Lieut.-Col. E. C. Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent) Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) Middlebrook, Sir William Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Evans, Ernest Mitchell, William Lane Watson, Captain John Bertrand Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Moles, Thomas White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Falcon, Captain Michael Molson, Major John Elsdale Wigan, Brig.-General John Tyson Foreman, Sir Henry Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M. Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Gardiner, James Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Morden, Lieut.-Col. W. Grant Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Winterton, Earl Glyn, Major Ralph Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Wise, Frederick Gould, James C. Morrison, Hugh Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh) Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar Nail, Major Joseph Younger, Sir George Gregory, Holman Neal, Arthur Greig, Colonel James William Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Lord E. Talbot and Captain Guest.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Class II
Chief Secretary for Ireland
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £13,945, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the Chief Secretary in Dublin, Belfast, and London (including Grants for the Higher Education of ex-Officers, etc.); of the Irish Public Health Council; of the Inspectors of Lunatic Asylums; Expenses under the Inebriates Acts; and certain Allowances for Disturbance, etc."
Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put and agreed to.—[ Colonel Sir R. Sanders. ]
Resolution to be reported to-morrow.
Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow.
Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
The House will observe that the Bill is limited as to the subject-matter of the inquiry, which is to be a definite matter of urgent public importance, and the Bill does not apply except to cases where either there has been a Resolution passed by either House of Parliament or an undertaking has been given by a Minister of the Crown to either House of Parliament. When these conditions have been fulfilled the Act may apply. It does not follow that it must apply. If it applies, the tribunal is armed with full powers as to taking evidence on oath, the compelling of the attendance of witnesses, and the compelling of the production of documents. I need not dwell upon the other provisions. I will mention only one. It is expressly provided that a witness before any such tribunal shall be entitled to protection as if he were a witness before a Superior Court of Justice. In other words, a witness is entitled to absolute privilege. It was suggested to me while this Bill was in course of preparation that some special mention ought to be made of the Official Secrets Act. I thought that was unnecessary for two reasons. In the first place, because an offence is not committed under the Official Secrets Act unless the person receiving the information has disclosed it under circumstances in which he is not authorised to do so. It is inconceivable that he would be held to be unauthorised to do so when he was required to do so by a tribunal set up in the way contemplated by this Bill. In the second place, there is this further safeguard. A man cannot be prosecuted for an offence under the Official Secrets Act except upon the fiat of the Attorney-General, and in such a case it could not be that the Attorney-General would give his fiat. I hope that this Bill, which was designed to meet the wishes expressed on all sides of the House, will pass through all its stages without opposition.
I think this Bill quite genuinely does what the House hoped would be done. It conforms with the desire of the House that the tribunal shall only apply to the particular class of cases under discussion at the time when it was suggested, and that even then there shall be some latitude, and that is met by the statement that the instrument by which the tribunal is appointed may provide that this Act shall apply. In the third place it was desired that there shall be real protection for the witnesses who come before the body which is to be set up. That condition is also met. Therefore, there ought to be no difficulty in accepting the suggestion of the Attorney-General that the Bill shall pass with all reasonable haste.
I was shocked to hear the suggestion that this Bill should pass through all its stages to-night. It means giving very great power to a Government Department, and I cannot believe that it was intended to give such great powers as are provided in the Bill. A Minister of the Crown, in answer to a private Member, may give an undertaking to set up a Committee to inquire into a matter of urgent public importance. The Minister has the sole discretion, without any resolution of the House or without any discussion, to give an undertaking to set up the tribunal, and the House would have no power to interfere. Directly that Minister of the Crown says he will set up the tribunal, he can set it up, and vest it with remarkable powers. I have had the honour of being set up as a tribunal to conduct inquiries, but I should be very surprised if I were allowed the powers that are given to a tribunal under this Bill. When the tribunal is set up it has all the powers of a High Court judge to call for documents, and to compel witnesses to attend. A witness can be compelled to attend not upon an ordinary subpoena, but upon a document to be signed by any one member of the tribunal, and if the witness fails to attend, this tribunal, which may consist entirely of laymen, quite unaccustomed to deal with witnesses, can forthwith commit that unfortunate gentleman to prison for a term not exceeding three months. A warrant of committal to prison can be signed by one member of the tribunal. That is a great power to give to any tribunal. Then there is power to exclude the public from these tribunals, and to prevent people interested from being represented by solicitors or counsel. That comes home to one, but apart from the professional point of view it is a serious matter to prevent the persons interested from being represented by professional advisers when these people are not capable of putting their own case. A few months ago, when in reference to a certain proposal it was argued that a Minister of the Crown would never do these things, I said that the House of Commons ought not to put such powers in the hands of Ministers of the Crown. It could be provided that these powers could be given to a tribunal if the House of Commons passed a Resolution. During the War the habit of marching Bills through late at night came in, and I protest strongly against it now. It is absolutely irregular, and the House of Commons has only got itself to thank if it does not stand up to the Government. It is this rushing legislation through late at night that gets the House of Commons into contempt. Take a case like the Marconi case which was inquired into. If drastic powers such as are now asked for had been given in that case, the case could have been heard in camera, and persons interested might have been prevented from being represented by counsel. That point was argued about very much at the time, but finally was allowed. Under this Bill it might not be allowed. We ought not to be asked to take all three stages of a Bill at this time of night. Hon. Members probably have not read the Bill, as usually a Bill is not read by Members until the Committee stage is coming on. I hope that the Government will not do more than take the Second Reading to-night.
This discussion shows one of the disadvantages of having a matter arranged for one set of Members, and having it discussed by another set. The arrangement in reference to this particular Bill was in regard to an inquiry which in accordance, as I thought, with the distinct wish of the House we agreed to set up. We felt that there was great difficulty in making the procedure judicial, and when I referred to the difficulty of getting a Bill at this stage, the right hon. Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury) said that as far as he was concerned, he would give it to us without discussion in all its stages after 11 o'clock. We, therefore, brought this Bill in purely to meet what we thought was the wish of the House. At this stage of the Session we cannot give time for the Bill if there be any controversy about it. I leave, the House to decide whether we are to have the Bill, or whether we shall proceed with the inquiry without the Bill.
My hon. and learned Friend has made a mistake in attacking the Government for bringing in this Bill after eleven o'clock. As the Leader of the House has said, when the hon. and gallant Member (Captain; Loseby) made certain accusations against the Ministry of Munitions, it was decided that a Committee should be set up. I asked whether the Committee would have power to examine witnesses on oath, and it appeared that the Committee would not have that power. I then suggested that a Bill should be passed enabling the Committee to take evidence on oath, and I said that I thought the House would be only too glad to agree to all stages after eleven o'clock. There is, however, this difference: I never contemplated that it would be a general Bill. It is, quite true that the Leader of the House said that he would consider whether or not he could bring in a general Bill, but I would remind him that a considerable number of Members around me at once said, "No, not a general Bill." A Bill has been brought in, and, personally, I am sorry it is a general Bill. I was very anxious that if there were an inquiry it should be a proper inquiry. In order to ensure that, it was necessary that the Committee should have power to take evidence on oath. That is rather a different thing from passing a Bill giving any Government in the next 40 or 50 years power to set up what is practically a Star Chamber, and to set it up not by a Resolution of this House or of either House, but after someone has suggested to a Minis- ter of the Crown that an inquiry should be made. It is, I believe, not uncommon for the asking of a question to be arranged by a Minister. Under this Bill there is nothing to prevent an hon. Member asking at the beginning or end of questions, when Members are not attentive, that some inquiry be granted, and the Minister who has arranged the question will say, "Certainly," and the Bill comes into force. I suggest that if there is to be a general Bill there should be omitted from the first Clause the words
"or an undertaking given by a Minister of the Crown to,"
so that the Clause would then read:
"Where, in pursuance of a Resolution passed by either House of Parliament, a tribunal (other than a Committee of either House) is established.…."
If that were done, I think objection to the Bill would be removed.
We must end this discussion one way or the other. This is a case, if ever there was one, where the Government have tried to meet the wishes of the House in a clear way. I am not going into the arguments, but I must point out what they mean. If we adopted my right hon. Friend's suggestion, what would be the next thing? No Resolution whatever was taken in regard to that matter, and we would have formally to move in the House a Resolution now to enable this Bill to be carried out. How much discussion that would involve I do not know. [HON. MEMBERS: "None."] I was told that before, and we are certainly not going to adopt that course. I would like to say further that, in my opinion, the objections to this Bill are imaginary rather than real. The difficulty is this: Under the Bill a Committee cannot be set up unless it is a matter of urgent public importance, and people who come before that tribunal would, my right hon. and learned Friend (Sir Gordon Hewart) assures me—and I see no reason to question the accuracy of the statement—be subject to no penalty of any kind if they discharged the duty of giving evidence when asked to do so by the Committee. I am bound to say, so far as the Government are concerned, we are not going to have a discussion about this, and if the House does not like the Bill in this form, we are ready to withdraw it.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consent to reduce the penalty? To impose a penalty of three months' imprisonment in a general powers Bill seems to me to be rather strong. Out of the very reasonable request of the House for a tribunal to inquire into the specific instance brought forward by the hon. and gallant Member for East Bradford (Captain Loseby), to introduce a measure of far-reaching constitutional importance, imposing a possibility of three months' imprisonment on somebody who does not obey the behests of what now comes not to be a Resolution of the House, but the undertaking of a Minister, seems to involve such a big principle that we ought to think twice before we agree to it. I hope the Bill will go forward, but with amendment.
At first sight I was inclined to agree with my right hon. Friend that the omission of the second sentence would probably cure the defect which many of us think there is in this Bill, but what I really rose to say is this, that I think this is a matter which the House has changed its mind upon. I was present at the Debate which has been referred to, and I understood that the Leader of the House was not the one who suggested that the tribunal should be set up with power to take evidence on oath. It was pressed on him from many quarters of the House. I also have a clear recollection that when the right hon. Gentleman suggested that if there was to be a special Act it had better be an Act covering all such cases in the future, there was Very general assent from the House that a measure of that sort should be drafted. Where I think the House has perhaps gone a little astray is that everybody does not realise the difficulties of drafting a measure of this sort or exactly where you are led to once you begin to set up a tribunal of this character. I know from experience it is very difficult to draft such a measure with general application without embarking upon a procedure which is not obnoxious to some hon. Members. If hon. Members of the House individually had had more opportunity of reflection, I think they would not have been so anxious to press on the Leader of the House the introduction of a general measure of this sort. Speaking for myself, I am inclined to think the opinion of the Leader of the House, that it would be better to allow the tribunal to proceed without these compulsory powers, was probably the better course under the circumstances, but if the House has changed its opinion, I think I may fairly say that it is not the fault of the Government, but because some of us spoke hastily, without due reflection, and it will now be no reflection on the Government if, in answer to the wish of the House, the Bill is withdrawn at the request of the House at this moment.
As I was one of the originators of this trouble I should like to make two very brief observations. One is that the Leader of the House has carried out to the full the undertaking that he gave to me, and I am thankful for that. The second is that I would venture the opinion that as this matter has gone so far, it would create a very bad impression in the country if the House were to withdraw from it.
Might I suggest this to my right hon. Friend? There does not seem to be any pressing reason why more than the Second Reading should be taken to-night. He could have the remaining stages to-morrow night without any trouble. If he will leave it for one night there can be time for discussion and, so far as I know, my right hon. Friend will get the Bill to-morrow night if he leaves that period for discussion.
What period?
Till to-morrow night.
It is really my desire in this matter to do what the House wishes, and if I thought that by having time for reflection the House tomorrow would make up its mind, without discussion, one way or the other, to go on with the Bill or drop it, I would be quite willing to agree to that. If that is the view of the House it is a clear understanding that, leaving the House to reflect on the Bill to-morrow, then, without discussion, we shall either withdraw this or go on with it.
Perhaps one or two interested in the Bill between now and to-morrow night might like to have the benefit of the Attorney-General's advice in thinking it over. Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman be prepared to meet that desire?
indicated assent.
I want to get a little further information from the right hon. Gentleman if possible. He has told us that it is not necessary to make reference to the Official Secrets Act in this Bill, and that no proceedings can be taken under that Act unless instituted by the Attorney-General. What I would also like to know is that, not only are people immune from punishment for giving evidence, but will the tribunal be empowered to compel them to give this evidence? When we set up the Coal Commission a different view was given. We were then told we could not have the evidence unless a provision were inserted in the Act compelling them to come forward, and in the Coal Industry Commission Act, 1919, we have this Clause:
"A person examined as a witness or summoned to produce documents by the Commissioners shall not be excused from producing any document or giving any information on the ground that such document or information is secret or confidential, or is entitled or required to be withheld under Section two of the Official Secrets Act, 1911."
Assuming, in the case of the inquiry that is to be held, any member of the Department may say, "I am not prepared to come forward, because it is against the Official Secrets Act," will that Committee have power to compel him to come forward and to prosecute him or impose penalties? I should like to have an assurance as to that.
The answer is quite simple. The tribunal would have that power which a High Court Judge has of committing for contempt a witness who does not attend or who attends and refuses to answer questions.
Does the statement made by the Leader of, the House mean that we must either take the Bill as it is or drop it? Will the right hon. Gentleman not accept any Amendments?
What the Attorney-General has already said I think answers that question, because he has asked those specially interested to consult him in order to have only agreed Amendments.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole house for To-morrow.—[ Sir G. Hewart. ]
Children Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
This is a measure providing for some minor Amendments to the Children Act of 1918 so far as it relates to reformatory and industrial schools. The necessity for these small Amendments and for having them within this financial year arises from the fact that some nine or ten months ago we made a complete change in the system by which the Exchequer contributed to the cost of these schools. Originally the Exchequer contributed a variable rate and the result was that some local authorities volunteered and kept up voluntary schools and were really unable to keep them in a proper state of efficiency. The result was that hardships were suffered by those local authorities and the provision made for the children was far from efficient. We then adopted a system by which the local authorities pay a flat rate and they know now exactly where they stand. The central authority, by means of supervision and inspection, keeps the schools efficient, and if the cost is too great then the Exchequer is responsible and not the local authority. The effect of this arrangement on the Exchequer is that there is practically no difference in the total. Under the old system we paid too much in some cases and too little in others, and by thus pooling arrangements the payments will be more equal throughout the country while the cost to the Exchequer will be practically the same as it was before. Really the change does not throw any additional cost on the State whilst it secures greater efficiency. One Amendment made is that where parents or guardians can apply to have their children sent to a certified school and the limit of the contributions is 2 s. per week per child, that has been altered to conform to the general arrangement. Certain cases of superannuation allowances have been omitted as they caused great hardship, and there are other discrepancies of that kind which this Bill puts right.
There is another small provision, dealing with the control of buildings to which the public contribute. If the public contributes to a building, then they ought to have control so that, if it ceases to be a school, the public will not lose the money they spend. That explains the Bill, which covers a few small matters that have to be dealt with in this financial year so as to make our scheme complete. This scheme has had the effect of producing much greater efficiency in these schools, and of making the financial burden much more equally distributed. I would ask the House to agree to the Second Reading.
This Bill is really not so unimportant as my right hon. Friend might have led the House to believe. It is very complicated, and I have been trying to fit the Amendments into the main Act. Although the lucid explanation which the right hon. Gentleman has given to the House has helped me considerably, there is a good deal in the Bill which requires further consideration, and it is a great pity it has been brought on so late at night. The first point to which I wish to call attention is that this will commit the House to certain expenditure. Therefore we ought to have had some explanation from the right hon. Gentleman.
There will be on the Financial Resolution.
Sub-section (3) of the Bill says:
"In Section seventy-three (which provides for contributions from the Treasury towards the expenses of certified schools) the words 'Provided that the contribution shall not exceed two shillings per head per week for children detained in an industrial school on the application of their parents or guardians' shall be repealed."
The main Act, if I may trouble the Committee with a few lines of Section 73, reads as follows:
"There shall be provided out of monies provided by Parliament such sums on such conditions as the Secretary of State may, with the approval of the Treasury, recommend, towards the expenses of any youthful offender or child detained in a certified school, including the expenses of removal to any certified school," etc.
Then follows this safeguard:
"Provided that the contribution shall not exceed two shillings per week for children."
It is that safeguard which, by this Bill, we are asked to remove. We ought to have been informed, though there may be some Financial Resolution on the Paper in the Order Book of the House which I have not seen, what this amount of money would come to before we commit ourselves to this. It will be an increased charge on the Exchequer, and some estimate might have been given. That 2s. a week for a child to-day is insufficient everyone will agree, but there ought to be some limit to what we are to pay. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether his Department, with its manifold excitements and interests in other directions, in these troublous times, is constantly reviewing the effect of the industrial school system on the child life of this country—I mean on the children who are sent to the industrial schools? I am afraid that in the last few years, with wars and revolutions, and rumours of wars and rumours of revolutions, that these basic things have been rather lost sight of. I used to take a small interest in this kind of thing, because at one time I had a large number of naval boys in my charge, and I looked into the statistics of the Borstal training ships, and the like. My impression is that the results produced by these industrial schools for wayward children are nothing like commensurate with the expenditure. Here and there perhaps a child is reformed, but in too many cases the child goes back worse than he went in. There have been too many cases in which the child has left the school more cunning, more tricky in escaping punishment and more skilled in deceit. The Borstal system has not been the success it was hoped it would prove. There was an extremely interesting experiment tried before the War in which the permanent officials of the right hon. Gentleman took a good deal of interest—the Little Commonwealth School in Dorsetshire. That school took charge of children who had been pronounced incorrigible in the ordinary industrial schools, with whom the ordinary methods had proved unsuccessful. The results of this little colony were something wonderful. Let hon. Members realise that successes such as that may eventually prove a great saving to the State by increasing the efficiency of a very important part of the population. Children who show too much initiative and imagination and of the spirit of adventure—apt to be turned in a wrong direction—may be converted into admirable citizens. I should like to ask if the right hon. Gentleman's Department has yet found an opportunity of reviewing the whole system of the State treatment of these children. If they do so and find that radical improvements are necessary, I hope they will not hesitate to make boldly the necessary proposals to Parliament. They would discover that this would prove one of the finest investments for national finance.
While the Borstal system may not have been an unqualified success, the Dorsetshire institution referred to by the hon. and gallant Member (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) has ceased to exist.
Thanks principally to the War.
I agree that this question has not received the attention which it should have done, and those of us who are interested in the Borstal system would welcome the co-operation of the education authorities rather than of the police. We want to remove these young criminals from police influence and bring them more under the influence of education. It should be realised that there must be something wrong in a system under which pensioned prison warders, who have spent so many years of their lives in charge of convicts, are sent to look after young children. It is a very bad principle to place in charge of a man who has had to deal with hardened criminals the boys who are sent to schools of this character. I am sure money would be well spent on a system in which the Board of Education rather than the police authorities collaborated.
12 M.
It seems a great pity that a Bill like this should not have the backing of the Minister of Education, seeing that it is a measure promoted by the Home Secretary which ought to have the co-operation of the Education Department. As it is also dealing with young persons, is there no way in which the Ministry of Labour could co-operate? It is a pity, as my hon. and gallant Friend (Major Glyn) has said, that these matters should be left under police influence, and if we could have the Home Secretary's assurance that he will do his utmost to cooperate both with the Board of Education and with the Ministry of Labour, so that the best results may be gained from the expenditure in connection with these schools, we could all feel very much indebted to him.
I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that we shall.
There are two points to which I should like to draw the Home Secretary's attention. The first is with regard to the methods now obtaining in the case of a number of children whose fathers served in the forces during the War. These lads had got out of hand, and their mothers—probably having to devote their attention to younger children—were unable to look after them carefully. The consequence was that the boy, taken up for some offence, was removed to a reformatory or industrial school away from the mother's control. The fathers of those boys, where they have come back safe and sound from the War, are anxious that the children should come back, but in spite of their appeals they have been left out. I would urge the Home Secretary to take into consideration the cases of those children, and to consider sympathetically the desire of the parents that those boys should be allowed to come back where they can control them. The other point, which was brought to my mind by what was said by the hon. and gallant Member for Clackmannan (Major Glyn), was as to the clothing of the children, which, I take it, would come under the Clause relating to finance. When one sees the children from an industrial school—boys or girls—being taken out for a march or a walk, every one of them dressed alike․
That is a question of administration under the existing law, and can be discussed on the Reformatory and Industrial Schools Vote. It is not a matter under this Bill.
Would not any alteration involve some more money, and if there is a Financial Resolution down will it not come properly within this Bill? If you are amending the Children Act in relation to reformatories, surely it is within the Bill to discuss changes with regard to the children themselves, and the treatment of the children?
I do not think so. As I understand the proposal, it is merely pooling or making uniform, instead of irregular, the contributions all over the country.
My wish is that the dress of the children shall not be pooled—shall not be all alike, but varied. It is argued against us, as Labour people and Socialists, that we want to have everyone alike, but that is just what you are carrying out in a reformatory. All the children are alike, and you can tell them any distance off. I am appealing to the Home Secretary that the children shall not be dressed in such a manner that they are known to come from a reformatory, causing them to go about in a shamefaced manner and to seek the back streets. I want them to be able to come out into the open, and not to be looked upon as criminals, but as human beings. I commend to the Home Secretary, and also to the Secretary for Scotland, this point with regard to the clothing of children in industrial schools.
I am afraid after your ruling that I shall have to put myself right with you as to whether I am in order or not, and I ask: Am I in order in discussing on this Bill, which deals with contributions to the maintenance of children, with the cost of collection of parents' contributions?
I think not, I think the Vote in Supply will be the proper place to raise that point.
Then I shall wait for that.
Will the right hon. Gentleman issue a White Paper to let us know before the Financial Resolution is taken what the cost is going to be?
Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House for To-morrow.—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
Supply
Report. [4th March.]
Civil Services and Revenue Departments Supplementary Estimates, 1920–21
Class III
Resolutions reported,
1. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to
2. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £7,530, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of Land Registry."
3. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £440,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the salaries of the Commissioner and Assistant Commissioners of the Metropolitan Police, and of the Receiver for the Metropolitan Police district, war bonus to Metropolitan Police magistrates, the contribution towards the expenses of the Metropolitan Police, the salaries and expenses of the inspectors of constabulary, and other grants in respect of police expenditure, including places of detention and a grant-in-aid of the Police Federation."
First Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I apologise for raising any question on this Report stage, but I had to be away on the Committee stage on Friday. I wish to refer to what I consider the waste of public money, to put it no higher, in vexatious and trivial prosecutions that are taking place up and down the country. The first one I am going to refer to, just as an example, is the case of an Irishman, a baker of Camberwell, called William Meagher, aged 36, a perfectly respectable man on the evidence of the detective who gave evidence as to his character, and a hard working man. He may have been born in this country or born in Ireland, I do not know, but he was prosecuted for using language in a motor omnibus which some policeman in plain clothes thought was improper. He made some remark about the Black and Tans very like the remarks made by every Member here with, I think, the exception of the hon. Member for Bournemouth (Lieut.-Colonel Croft). For this ordinary con- versation in a motor omnibus this respectable man is prosecuted. This sort of thing is a waste of public money, and a waste of the time of the police, who ought to be engaged in hunting burglars and pickpockets and racecourse roughs.
The second matter is the prosecution at the present moment of men, not of my political party at all, but usually Communists or Advanced Socialists, for exercising the very ancient right of Englishmen of criticising the Government and advocating changes. Purely political prosecutions are taking place weekly up and down, the country, in Glasgow, in Manchester, and in Coventry. Oh, yes, there are. It is no use the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Shortt) shaking his head. A well-known Socialist was convicted of utterances at a public meeting on the evidence of one police constable, who in cross-examination was found to have little political knowledge and was quite unfitted to say whether expressions were seditious or not. This man was prosecuted and imprisoned. Of course, the fact of the matter is, the Government are panic-stricken at the present moment. They think the working classes are seething with revolt, when, unfortunately, they are only too quiescent, and the result is they are going against all the English traditions of free speech, and giving notoriety and advertisement to people who otherwise, I daresay, could speak with perfect safety, and who become sort of heroes. The time of the police and the magistrates are taken up with that sort of case. That is the second example of the altogether indefensible action, as I consider it, on the part of the Home Office, which costs us money, and, what is worse, is against the traditions of this country.
The third case is the somewhat similar prosecution of the hon. Member for East Leyton (Mr. Malone). The hon. Member opposite (Mr. J. C. Davidson) may laugh, but I consider it my duty to raise on this, the first opportunity I have had, what I consider the scandalous case of a gentleman I had the honour of serving with in the Service, and who is also a personal friend of mine. This hon. Member of this House was arrested in circumstances of the greatest indignity when he was about to address students of the great college in Dublin. He was brought over here with every indignity. He was prosecuted, and on appeal be was sentenced to six months' imprisonment. I do not want in any way to criticise the learned magistrates who committed this hon. Member, but the prosecution was initiated by the Home Secretary's Department, and the offence was only that of making use of expressions about, in certain circumstances, hanging Cabinet Ministers, which had been used by hon. Members who sit upon that Bench, and which were almost precisely similar to words used by the present Lord Privy Seal a few years ago. The speech was made at a public meeting, not a hole-and-corner meeting, but a meeting at the Albert Hall, advertised for all the world to come to, in which this one sentence occurred on which the prosecution based its case. He got six months in the second division, and I saw this hon. and gallant Gentleman, who served with some distinction in the War, in a filthy overall sitting in one of His Majesty's prisons. He is not allowed newspapers or letters or visitors except once a month or so, and he is treated as if he were a pick-pocket or a burglar. I would consider myself unfit to sit in this House as a Liberal if I neglected this opportunity of protesting against such treatment. It is a matter for some cynicism that the Home Secretary (Mr. Shortt) himself was once a member of my party. Such are the effects of the greatest war in history.
This gentleman was first of all proceeded against on this charge, and he is being treated in a way that no political offender should be treated. He is a sailor and he does not mind the rough food and the plank bed; but he is treated as a criminal, a man of moral torpitude, simply for expressing sentiments which he probably felt quite sincerely and which happened to be unfavourable to the right hon. Gentlemen who are temporarily in power in this country. The charge against him was based on evidence which in normal times I do not believe would have been accepted in any Court of Justice in this country. The police picked up, they declared, a cloakroom ticket in the passage outside his door. The ticket was taken to the cloakroom and it was found to be in respect of a parcel which contained documents that the prosecution, which, of course, is the Government, declared to be seditious. If that sort of thing can be done, it means that if anyone is obnoxious to the Government, one policeman may go and swear he found a ticket or a document in his room which may have been put there secretly by some agent provocateur. If this sort of thing is permitted it will be possible to proceed against anyone in any position whom the Government wish to see out of the way. On the Continent the searching of men's houses has been common, while in this country it has been happily rare. It has been un-English and has not been tolerated by our people. In old Czarist Russia, when search was made on a man's premises, the owner had to be present. This sort of thing is striking at the cherished liberties of our people. If it is possible for detectives to go to a man's house and say "certain documents found there belong to you," not in his presence, we are not allowing a safeguard to the public which the old Czarist police used to allow. It is all very well for the hon. Member for Batley to be amused.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman must not assume that I have been amused. I have not even heard what he was saying. I was getting into a position of ease and comfort.
I am sure if the hon. Member had heard what I said he would altogether agree with me. I felt I had to make this protest about the prosecution of an hon. Member who, I consider, has been treated unjustly, not because he is a Member of Parliament, but because his was a political offence. He was arrested and tried and is now in prison for exercising an Englishman's right of free speech. This case has been brought to my notice not because the hon. Gentleman is a Member of Parliament—I do not think Members of Parliament should be treated differently from other persons—but because appetite had grown with eating. During the War, rightly or wrongly, parts of Magna Charta were repealed, and now the Government is trying to perpetuate this horrible system of suppressing opinion and persecuting ideas. We know what that sort of thing is, and I hope if the Government do not change their ways very soon and get over their ridiculous panic and rely once more on the good sense of our people, they will give way to another Government.
I had no notice at all that the hon. and gallant Gentleman was going to raise this point or any point dealing with me. I am in this difficulty, that the accounts he has given of individual cases are so widely removed from the truth in any case that I ever heard of that I really cannot think he is referring to any case that really has happened. As far as I gathered from his speech, he has made a violent attack, not upon the Home Office at all, but upon the Judges who conducted the various tribunals before which certain people were brought. The case of the hon. Member (Mr. Malone), of course, is well known to the House, and to suggest that he was prosecuted for opinions is to suggest what is wildly apart from the truth. Even supposing the Home Office were foolish enough and the police were subservient enough to institute prosecutions for opinions, does the hon. and gallant Gentleman really suggest that the Judges and juries of this country are going to convict them? The hon. Member was convicted before a perfectly impartial Court headed by a perfectly experienced magistrate. He appealed and was heard before a very experienced, well-known Judge sitting at a Court of Quarter Sessions in London. The Judge said the sentence of six months was wholly inadequate to the crime. What is the use of attacking a tribunal like that?
rose —
It is no use his saying that he did not.
The right hon. Gentleman is misrepresenting me and will not give way.
It is much too late to give way.
I carefully said I was not attacking the magistrates. If I am referred to and I wish to make a personal explanation it is the courtesy of the House for the speaker to give way.
If an hon. Member makes strong allegations it is customary for him to listen to the reply.
It is idle for the hon. and gallant Gentleman to say he made no attack on the Judges of the Courts. It is quite easy to get up and say, "I made no attack upon a person," and then accuse him of gross unfairness and inefficiency in the discharge of his judicial duties by convicting people upon evidence he ought not to have accepted, which is the sort of story we are told. I challenge the hon. and gallant Gentleman to produce one single case where a man has been charged for holding opinions, charged for any legitimate use of the right of free speech. The charges are invariably for incitement to violence, incitement to some kind of injury to personal property, and unless some charge of that kind is made no charge of any kind is made. It is the regulation thing for a certain class of journal and a certain class of speaker to accuse the Government of prosecuting people for their opinions. They do nothing of the sort, and there is not a single hon. Member who can produce the shorthand notes of a single trial in any court which can substantiate any such charge.
I am accepting the challenge thrown out by the Home Secretary, and I am going to quote to him the case of a Paisley mechanic who has been sentenced to three months' imprisonment for incitement to a breach of the peace—William Gallagher.
Inciting to murder.
Of course, we all incite to murder when we make any appeal to an audience to displace the present Government and place a Labour Government in its place. Gallagher was not inciting to murder. According to the published reports of the trial, Gallagher was sentenced for merely endorsing a speech that had been made by another man who has not yet been arrested. He was sentenced to three months' imprisonment. It is idle for the Home Secretary to say he was not prosecuted for his opinions. You are not allowed to express your opinions if they are against the Government. You cannot appeal to an audience to take possession of the seals of power but some policeman twists it round that you are making an attempt to incite your audience to take forcible possession of the seals of office. Your Home Office and this Vote for Criminal Prosecutions have brought the law to a farce. Go to any working-class district, hear how the men in the workshops talk of the way you arrest working men for speaking at street corners and in public halls, and sentence them to terms of imprisonment for language that is milder than any used by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who attend those Benches during Debate. You have only to quote the "Grammar of Anarchy," published by Maunsell of Dublin, and read the "Handbook for rebels," published by an Irish publishing firm, and the quotations from speeches delivered by Gentlemen who sit on those Benches during the Ulster, trouble, and I challenge the Home Secretary to say that the statements made by the men whom he is imprisoning or whom his judges are imprisoning—
They are not my judges. They are independent judges.
They are acting under these—
I have been very doubtful about this Debate all along. It started quite legitimately on the question of initiating prosecutions, but we must not allow any criticism of the action of the judges. The prosecution is one thing. The conviction is another.
It was the Government prosecution.
It was not.
Is it not a public prosecution?
It is not an executive prosecution.
Are we not asked to supply the Public Prosecutor with money to carry on prosecutions?
Yes. You have a Vote for the judges also, but they are absolutely independent of the Government.
Public prosecutions are taking place to-day for the use of language that is milder than the language that was used by right hon. Gentlemen on that Bench when they were inciting to rebellion in Ulster. The Public Prosecutor took no notice then because they were members of the Privy Council, but these are humble working men and working women. Not only do they arrest them for making speeches, but even for bringing literature into this country they are arrested and sentenced to two or three months' imprisonment, and yet the very documents and pamphlets they are bringing into this country can be found on sale in any newsagent's shop in this country.
They do not sentence them.
Well, your Government sentence them.
The hon. Member does not seem to appreciate the position. The judiciary in this country is entirely independent of the Government. That is why we do not allow criticism of the judges in the same way as we allow criticism of ministers.
But the Public Prosecutor is acting upon instructions. If he is an individual who can act as he pleases then that is news to this House, that a man in the office of Public Prosecutor can simply bring up anyone he likes, have him arrested when he chooses upon representations made to him that a particular individual is either selling a certain class of literature or making certain kinds of speeches. By whom is the representation made? By the police? Who gives the instructions to the police? The inspector or chief constable? The result is the arrest of a man for saying things which up to 1914 men were quite at liberty to say, but because to-day you are in a state of panic, a state of funk over the acts of what you are pleased to call Bolshevism in other countries, you are afraid in this country so that anything described as Bolshevism or anyone described as Bolshevist has got to be watched. I do not mind him being watched in the least, but I would suggest to hon. Members opposite to watch the Government a trifle more when they are arresting those people and sentencing them merely for saying things which we allowed them with perfect freedom before the War. I suggest you are in a state of panic. In the case of the men and women whom you are arresting and who are being sentenced for these things I suggest to the Home Secretary that he should take upon himself and should bring the matter before the Cabinet that there should be a general amnesty granted for the release of these people.
I simply want to point out to the hon. Member for Govan that the Labour party has just won three out of four bye-elections, and in these they were allowed to express the most vigorous opinions. If they would have a little more decency and courtesy to the police, who are doing a difficult job, the House would think a little better of them; yet, having gained these victories, they come down here and make accusations against the police.
Question, put, and agreed to.
Second Resolution agreed to.
Third Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I do not wish to detain the House long on this Vote, but there are two things I wish to say in passing this sum of nearly £500,000 for police expenditure. I hope the hon. Member for Lanark will not say that I am going to ask the police to protect me. Personally, I have never needed police protection, although I have been in hostile places to speak. The police doing their legitimate work have my greatest sympathy and, I hope, my continued support at all times. But it is their illegitimate work to which I object, and on this Vote I want to ask the Home Secretary if his attention has been drawn to the action taken against men selling newspapers, which he does not suppress for one reason or another; but if the people are found selling them, they are at once accused of obstruction. I am referring to the paper "Communist."
I think this is a matter to be raised on the main Estimate for the year, and not on a Supplementary Vote. On Wednesday, in the Vote on Account, the Home Secretary's salary will be down, and it then can be raised.
I thought I was in order in asking to have an explanation for this extra money being required on this work.
I do not think so. That would come under the general administration question.
I will immediately drop that point and ask whether I am in order in inquiring of the Home Secretary if he can give me any information whether any of this extra money is for the special guard of this House; whether that is a new service since the main Estimates were introduced. One should be informed of the cost of the special protection by the very excellent parties of persons in plain clothes of this House.
On the Office of Works Vote.
On a point of order. I raised this on the Vote of the Office of Works, and was told that it had nothing to do with them, that the cost of guarding this building did not come on that Vote. I think the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is not well informed on this matter. I give him notice that I shall raise this point, and perhaps he may be informed on a later Estimate. But I do say that for a building to be guarded in this manner is a searchlight on our system of democracy that has developed under the Coalition Government.
May I just say that except in so far as the pay of every member of the police force is included in this Vote, there is no special cost for the members of the police force guarding this House. If they were not doing that work, they would be engaged on work elsewhere.
Question put, and agreed to.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Monday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Twenty-three minutes before One o'clock.