Skip to main content

Commons Chamber

Volume 139: debated on Tuesday 8 March 1921

House of Commons

Tuesday, March 8, 1921

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock.

The CLERK AT THE TABLE informed the House of the unavoidable absence of Mr. SPEAKER from this day's Sitting.

Whereupon Mr. WHITLEY, the Chairman of Ways and Means, proceeded to the Table and, after Prayers, took the Chair as Deputy-Speaker, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Private Business

Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

East Surrey Water Bill.

Westgate and Birchington Water Bill.

Ordered, That the Bills be committed.

Private Bills (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),—Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, introduced pursuant to the Provision of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

Grampian Electricity Supply Bill (Substituted Bill).

Lochaber Water Power Bill,—

Read a Second time, and committed.

Coal Output (Monthly Statistics)

Return ordered "relating to the Output of Coal in the United Kingdom during periods of four weeks, commencing with the period ended, the 21st day of June, 1919, and to the number of persons employed at the end of those periods in the various districts (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 33, of Session 1920)." —[ Mr. Bridgeman. ]

Coal Output (Weekly Statistics)

Return ordered "relating to the Weekly Output of Coal from Coal Mines in Great Britain, commencing with the week ended the 31st day of May, 1919 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 28, of Session 1920)."—[ Mr. Bridgeman. ]

Oral Answers to Questions

Persia

British Loan

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the money advanced to the Persian Government in view of the adoption of the Anglo-Persian agreement is regarded as a loan to be repaid in the event of the rejection or avoidance of acceptance of the agreement by the Mejliss?

The answer to the question is in the affirmative.

Persian-Cossack Division

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the statement that General Dickson had been put in control of the Cossack Division and that we had accepted temporary responsibility for officering the Cossack Division, he can say when this responsibility terminated, when General Dickson resigned control of the division, and whether any British officers are at present serving with the Persian-Cossack Division?

The arrangement by which General Dickson and his officers were to assume temporary charge of the Persian-Cossack Division after the withdrawal of the Russian officers, was not carried out, and no British officers are serving or have served with the division.

Questions

Asia Minor Railway Concession

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether certain American interests had acquired before the War a concession from the, Ottoman Government for the construction of 1,200 miles of railroad through Asia Minor to the Persian Gulf, including all mineral rights in a zone 40 kilometres wide along the line of the railway; whether this line would pass through the region known as the Mosul oilfield; how this affects the interests of British oil companies in that area; and what is the attitude of the United States Government on this matter?

An extensive project of railway construction in Asia Minor was proposed by certain American interests and considered by the Turkish Government some years before the War. I have, however, no information indicating that any concession of the nature described by the hon. Member was granted by the Turkish Government.

Consular Service

asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many officers holding Consular rank in the British Service have had actual practical knowledge of trade matters; and how many vacancies there are still to be filled?

The Members of the Commercial Diplomatic Service in foreign countries and the Trade Commissioner Service of the Empire were appointed on the recommendation of Committees whose members included prominent business men. Of the 60 officers in these Services 33 had been in business and the remainder had acquired considerable knowledge of commercial intelligence in the Consular Service or the Board of Trade. As to the salaried Con- sular Service the scale of salaries which it is practicable to offer for the grade of entry cannot be expected to attract men already successfully engaged in business. Entry into this service is now, as before the War, governed by open competitive examination conducted by the Civil Service Commission for which candidates must be between the ages of 21 and 21. The next examination will be held in August when 20 vacancies will be announced.

Trade Exhibitions

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what concrete result has been recorded from the trade exhibitions which have just been held in this country; and whether the result justifies the outlay?

As the London and Birmingham sections of the fair only closed on Saturday last and the Glasgow section does not close until Saturday next, it is too soon to make even an approximate estimate of concrete results. Most of the foreign buyers will visit the fairs at Leipzig and Lyons before deciding where to place their orders. As regards the last part of the question, the charges made to exhibitors are designed to cover all the expenses of the fair itself, and to provide a contribution towards the cost of extra staff employed by the Department of Overseas Trade to cope with the work involved; but no charge is made against the fair for the services of the ordinary staff of the Exhibitions Division of the Department. It is for the individual exhibitor to determine whether his own outlay is justified, and the steady increase in the number of exhibitors from year to year appears to leave no doubt on the point. I may add that I would strongly deprecate any tendency to pronounce upon the utility of the fairs on the basis of immediate results in what is recognised to be a time of abnormal depression.

British Army

Repatriated Soldier (Wife's Passage)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that on 11th June, 1920, Mrs. P. A. Douglas was informed that she would be given a free passage to the United States of America to rejoin her husband; whether this passage was arranged for her on the ss. "Baltic," sailing from Liverpool on 14th July; whether he is aware that Mrs. Douglas sailed in the ss. "Columbia" from Greenock on 16th June; whether he has received a claim for the refund of the passage money paid for Mrs. Douglas for her passage by the ss. "Columbia"; whether he is aware that the War Office refused this claim on the ground that the berth allotted Mrs. Douglas in the ss. "Baltic" could not be returned to the shipping fund concerned, that it went empty, and would eventually have to be paid from Army funds; that the shipping company now state that they were advised prior to the sailing of the steamer that Mrs. Douglas was not travelling with it and consequently the accommodation reserved in her favour was released; and whether, in the circumstances that this lady is a repatriated soldier's wife, that her passage money was paid by her father, and that no expense was placed upon the War Office for her passage, he will reconsider this matter and refund the passage money expended?

I am informed that the facts are as stated in the first four parts of the hon. Member's question. As regards the remainder of his question an explanation has already been given to the hon. Member in an official letter of 26th January last. The Military authorities undertook to provide Mrs. Douglas with a passage of which she did not take advantage but made her own arrangements. It has been found necessary to make a rule, and enforce it strictly, that in such circumstances no claim against public funds can be admitted. There is nothing in this case which entitles Mrs. Douglas to exceptional treatment. The fact that no charge has been preferred by the shipping company for the berth on the ss. "Baltic" in no way establishes her claim for a refund, and I regret that the decision cannot be reconsidered.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the reply received by this lady was not to the effect that she would get a passage, but that she might get a passage, and that pending further communication from the War Office her father paid her passage money: that later she received a letter intimating that the passage money would be received: that the intimation coming from the War Office stated that they had actually paid for the passage and could not get a refund as the berth had been taken for the passage, but the statement of the shipping company was that the berth had actually been let to someone else because they were informed prior to the sailing of the steamer that Mrs. Douglas was travelling by another steamer, and in view of these circumstances and that this lady is the wife of a repatriated soldier will the right hon. Gentleman take the matter into further consideration?

One hon. Gentleman cannot expect to have an answer to all these questions. Any fresh matter had better be dealt with by consultation, or a further question should be put down.

These facts are in the question on the Paper. I am trying to elicit an answer.

Yeomanry Regiments

asked the Secretary of State for War which yeomanry regiments are now up to strength; and whether these regiments will be given precedence over those originally selected to remain as yeomanry in cases where the latter have not yet recruited their complement?

I should be glad if the hon. Member would await my statement on the Army Vote on Account, when I propose to go more fully into this matter than can be done in answer to a question.

My hon. and gallant Friend is now asking me to answer a question which I do not want to deal with by question and answer. I want to deal with it in Debate.

Is it proposed to give a day or part of a day to a discussion of the Territorial Army generally?

Hon. and gallant Members will have their opportunity on the Vote on Account, which I hope will be taken next week. It is for them to chose the subject, and not for me.

Civilian Workmen, Weymouth

asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that the Officer Commanding, Royal Engineers, Weymouth area, is circularising the civilian workmen employed in the Royal Engineers Department asking them if they are members of a trade union, and, if so, the name of the union they are members of; whether this circular was issued with his authority; and for what purpose is the information asked for required?

I would refer the hon. Member to my reply yesterday to the hon. Member for Spen Valley, in which I explained that steps are being taken to set up local works committees among War Department employés, in accordance with the Whitley Scheme for Government industrial establishments. I am informed that the information asked for by the Officer Commanding, Royal Engineers, Weymouth, is being obtained to enable him to arrange local conferences with the representatives of trade unions having men employed in establishments under his command. I may add that the procedure adopted is in accord with the views of the employés side of the War Department Industrial Council.

Cost Accounting Branch

asked the Secretary of State for War what is the total number of the staff of the Cost Accounting Branch; what is the annual total cost of this new branch; and whether he is in a position to say what savings it is hoped will be effected by it?

The total staff numbers 1,380 and the cost for 1921–22 is estimated to be about £420,000. It is not possible to give an estimate of the savings which will be effected by it, but no doubt is entertained that it will produce far-reaching improvement in the economy of Army administration and the machinery of control of Army expenditure.

Motor Lorries (Subsidy)

asked the Secretary of State for War what is the number of motor lorries which it is proposed shall be subsidised by the War Office in the event of their being required for purposes of war?

The object of the proposed scheme was to secure rapid possession of 750 suitable heavy lorries and 100 light lorries. My right hon. Friend is causing the whole matter to be reconsidered, and, as I informed my hon. and gallant Friend yesterday, no final decision will be taken before the Debate on the Estimates.

I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Vote on Account.

War Medal (Service in India)

asked the Secretary of State for War when it is proposed to issue an Army Order giving effect to his predecessor's reply last Session that European officers and men who served in India during the War are entitled to the British War medal?

The second paragraph of Army Order 266 of 1919, which announced the award of the British War medal contains the instruction that the medal will be granted to those "who rendered approved service overseas.…between 5th August, 1914, and 11th November, 1918." It is not considered necessary to issue further instructions as suggested in the question. I am sending my hon. and gallant Friend a copy of the Army Order referred to.

Army Council

asked the Secretary of State for War how many civilians and how many military officers now constitute the Army Council; and, if the civilians predominate, what steps he proposes to take to put a stop to this anomaly?

At the present time the Army Council consists of three Ministers, three civilians, and five military officers. For the reasons given in my predecessor's answer of 20th July last, I cannot accept the view that there is anything anomalous in the constitution of the Council.

If the right hon. Gentleman calls this an Army Council, will he make it an Army Council or will he call it a Civilian Council?

No, I shall not call it a Civilian Council. I call it the Army Council because that is its official name.

Have not these civilians been put on since the Esher Committee sent in their Report constituting the Army Council?

That is the question which was dealt with in the answer to which I have referred my hon. and gallant Friend.

Did not the right hon. Gentleman deal with that question very unsatisfactorily?

Officers' Uniforms

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the War Office whether he will notify the fact that khaki drill uniforms of authorised pattern for Eastern stations can be procured by officers at the Royal Army Clothing Department at a cost of £2 1s. 6d. for a jacket and £10s. 3d. for trousers, and that officers proceeding to Eastern stations and India are advised to apply to the Royal Army Clothing Department for these articles and not to pay the high prices now being charged for them by military tailors; and whether he will simplify the procedure enabling officers to purchase uniform and equipment from the Royal Army Ordnance Department, so that officers who are entitled to a Government grant can obtain their uniform as a charge against that grant without the necessity of prepayment before they have received the grant as at present?

Information has already been communicated to commands that certain surplus stocks of officers' clothing (including khaki drill uniform) are available, at the present time, for purchase at the Royal Army Clothing Department. It is not the intention, however, to continue the sale of uniform to officers after these stocks have been used up. As regards the second part of the question, I am afraid that the suggestion would not in effect simplify the procedure, while it might result in delaying the payment of allowances to those officers who do not desire to make purchases from the Royal Army Clothing Department.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware I have instances in which young officers are entitled to a grant for uniform, but cannot get the grant until they produce a receipted bill, while the young officers have no money to pay the bill, and the Army Clothing Department refuse to give the uniform until they have got a receipted bill? Will the right hon. Gentleman get over that difficulty and let the men draw their uniform without prepayment?

If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will send me a statement of the facts, I will have it investigated.

These are the facts which I have stated. Will the right hon. Gentleman allow the men to get the grant?

Army of Occupation (Health)

( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to grave allegations concerning the Army of the Rhine which have been made by the Rev. W. Talbot Hindley, a Chaplain of the Territorial Force; and, in particular, whether there is anything to justify the statements that the conditions of life in Cologne make a death-trap for our soldiers; that 95 per cent. of one unit have been through hospital; and that there is a cemetery which is largely filled with suicides and victims of venereal disease?

My attention has been called to the allegations in question, and the Army Council are in communication with the reverend gentleman concerning them. There is no justification whatever for the statements attributed to him. During the period from 1st January, 1920, to 31st January, 1921, the monthly average of admissions for venereal disease was 1·4 per cent. of the total strength; there were 85 deaths from all causes, but none from venereal disease and only five from wounds self-inflicted.

Questions

Marriage (Deceased Husbands' Brothers)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, having regard to the fact that some thousands of women are now prevented from marrying their deceased husbands' brothers through a failure to give equal rights to men and women when the Deceased Wife's Sister Act was passed, and to the further fact that a great proportion of the women concerned are believed to be war widows in receipt of a large sum for pensions which would cease to be payable if the law was made equal for men and women in this respect, he will introduce a Bill to remedy the present condition of things?

The Government are unable to undertake legislation on this subject. I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the Prime Minister on the 8th November last.

As the War has accentuated this condition in the country, cannot the right hon. Gentleman see the advisability of doing something in this direction?

Would the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to make a recommendation on the subject?

Arson, Manchester

asked the Home Secretary how many further crimes of arson have been committed by Sinn Feiners in the Manchester area within the last week; what is the total amount of damage done by Sinn Feiners down to date in this area; and whether he will arrange for the formation of an auxiliary police force from among unemployed ex-service men in Manchester, in order to put an end to crimes of this character?

Since I answered a similar question by my hon. and gallant Friend on the 23rd February, there have been four or five spasmodic attempts at arson in the Manchester area which were probably part of the Sinn Fein campaign, but fortunately the damage has been relatively small, and there is little to add to the approximate estimate previously given. I do not think it necessary or possible for me to arrange for the formation of an auxiliary police force. The regular police can be supplemented where necessary by the employment of special constables.

Police Strikers, Re-Instatement

asked the Home Secretary whether the Town Clerks of Liverpool and Birkenhead have been in communication with him regarding his statement on the 20th December that, subject to the general control of the Home Office with regard to efficiency, the power of re-instating police officers who participated in the strike in 1919 is vested in the local authority; whether, in reply to these communications, he has now stated that regulation 7 of the Police Regulations precludes the re-appointment of constables who were dismissed in consequence of their participation in the strike; and whether, in view of the fact that in certain districts the local authority, which is most in touch with the opinion of the district, is prepared to re-instate the police strikers, he will adhere to his first statement and allow these local authorities to exercise their discretion?

The answer to the first two questions is in the affirmative. As regards the third question, the local authorities have declined to re-instate the men who refused duty in 1919, and this is in accordance with the decision of the Government, to which I must adhere, and is the only course consistent with the maintenance of the discipline essential to the efficiency of the police.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of his statement to a deputation from the Parliamentary Committee of the Trades Union Congress on the 8th December last, that the Police Federation had refused to take up the question of the re-instatement of police officers who participated in the strike of 1919, and that this went to show that the body of opinion in the police force was not behind the move for re-instatement, he is aware that, although the Chairman of the Central Joint Committee of the Police Federation ruled the matter out of order, several forces have expressed their anxiety for the re-instatement of the men, and have even sent direct to the Home Secretary their opinion on this matter; and whether, in view of all the circumstances, the Government is prepared to reconsider the question as it affects the Metropolitan Police Force, and allow local authorities to act as they think fit with respect to provincial forces.

I am informed that Branch Boards in a few forces have submitted resolutions in the sense indicated; but the question of the re-instatement of the dismissed police strikers is excluded from the scope of the Police Federation by Section 1 (1) of the Police Act, 1919: and the Branch Boards concerned have been so informed. The Government considered the matter fully before deciding that these men ought not to be re-instated, and the question cannot be reopened.

Ex-Police Officer (Temporary Re-Employment)

asked the Home Secretary whether ex-Superintendent J. M'Carthy, formerly of the Criminal Investigation Department (Central), is now being employed in connection with the work of the director of intelligence at Scotland Yard; whether he is being paid for this work; whether, at the same time, he is in receipt of a pension as an ex-police officer; and whether this is a contravention of the pension Regulations?

The answer to the first three questions is in the affirmative, and to the fourth that the arrangement is perfectly regular and was followed in the case of hundreds of police pensioners who were temporarily re-employed during the War.

Russia

Propaganda

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that on one occasion the guillotine at Scotland Yard was broken while in use for the guillotining of bogus copies of the Moscow "Pravda" whether the repair of this machine was paid for out of public moneys; and, if not, who paid for it?

I have made inquiry, and find that nothing is known of this alleged incident.

Questions

Cattle Medicines

asked the Home Secretary in what way he proposes to provide, under the Dangerous Drugs Act Regulations, for farmers to procure drugs coming under the regulations for the use of their cattle; whether he proposes that such cattle medicines shall be denaturised, and, if so, whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been consulted.

The whole question, including a suggestion as to the possibility of denaturing the drugs supplied for use by farmers, is under consideration, but I am not in a position to make any statement at present.

Housing

Local Schemes, Scotland

asked the Secretary for Scotland if his attention has been called to the decision of some local authorities in Scotland to abandon schemes for building houses meantime on the ground in some cases that the cost of building materials is still too high, and in other cases that the houses contemplated to be built should be reduced in number, owing to large numbers of anticipated occupiers emigrating, and also, owing to lack of employment, workmen will be unable to pay the rents demanded; and if, under the circumstances, he will advise all local authorities to reconsider their schemes with a view to modification?

I am aware that in a few instances local authorities have proposed to abandon or modify their approved housing schemes. Where high cost is the ground of the proposal it is usually found possible to secure the necessary reduction in cost. Where the reason is emigration or unemployment the Scottish Board of Health are prepared to consent to the modification of schemes in cases in which they are satisfied that a change in local conditions warrants it. Power to vary a scheme as circumstances may dictate is invariably retained by the Board in granting approval. I do not consider it necessary to advise all local authorities to reconsider their schemes.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in at least one district in Lanarkshire, in a mining village, houses are about to be erected though the pits are almost exhausted, and in such circumstances is it a wise thing to proceed to spend money on the present site?

If my hon. Friend will give me particulars of the case he has in mind I will be glad to consider it.

Scotland

Electors, Register

asked the Secretary for Scotland if he will issue instructions to the officers making up the register of parliamentary and local government electors to insert a separate column stating the occupation of the elector?

My hon. Friend is no doubt aware that in the interests of economy the omission of the occupation column was decided upon a little over a year ago. I may refer to what I said in answer to questions on the subject on the 25th November, 1919. The necessity for economy is even greater now than it was then; and I have no reason to suppose that the omission of the column in question has created any serious inconvenience. I am not prepared, as at present advised, to alter my previous decision.

Will there be a special column for occupations in the electors' register for Mesopotamia?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many districts in Scotland it is Very difficult to ascertain the exact man whose name is on the list, because there are very many men of the same name and surname, and in one district there are 34 such cases?

If my hon. Friend will again give me particulars I will look into the cases in which he is interested.

District Agricultural Committees

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that some uncertainty is felt by district agricultural committees in Scotland in respect of their powers and duties under the Agriculture Act, 1920; and whether he will now issue an explanatory memorandum to such committees for their guidance in these matters.

I am aware that a number of the committees in Scotland are in doubt as to their powers and duties under the Agriculture Act, 1920. A memorandum is in course of preparation which will be addressed to them at an early date and which will explain the nature of the powers and duties entrusted to them.

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether district agricultural committees in Scotland, as at present constituted, have power to grant certificates in terms of the Agriculture Act, 1920, and generally to perform the duties imposed upon district agricultural committees by that Act; and whether he intends to introduce legislation dealing with the position of these committees during this Session?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The Scottish committees will shortly be armed with powers following upon Regulations to be made under Section 11 (2) of the Corn Production Act, 1917, and legislation is accordingly unnecessary.

Rating Committee

asked the Secretary for Scotland if he can give the names of the Members of the Committee on Rating of which Lord Dunedin is Chairman; and when it will commence its sittings; and whether it will sit in Edinburgh or in London?

I regret that I am not yet in a position to answer the first and second parts of my hon. and gallant Friend's question. If he will be good enough to put down a question for Thursday I hope to be able to give him a reply. As regards the last part, I should think that the Committee would sit mainly in Scotland, but this is a matter for the Committee to determine in accordance with the balance of convenience.

School Holidays

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the regulations as to the employment of children issued by the Fife education authority have been modified so as to admit of school holidays being fixed at such times and in such a manner that children can be employed at harvest and at potato lifting in rural districts?

It is in the power of an education authority to fix the school holidays, or part of them, in such a way as to cover periods of special activity in agriculture of the kind referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend. I may add that a bye-law containing provisions as to the exemption of children from attendance at school for the purpose of taking part in potato lifting and similar occupations, and dealing also with the number of hours during which they may be employed, has been submitted to me by the Fife education authority for confirmation and is now under consideration.

Board of Agriculture, Staff

asked the Secretary for Scotland the number of persons, distinguishing between those permanent and temporary, employed by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland on 31st January, also stating separately the numbers at the head office in Edinburgh from the remainder in other parts of Scotland; and the number of officials receiving a salary of £250 per annum and upwards and the total amount of salaries, bonuses and allowances for the current year?

As the answer involves a number of figures, I propose, with my right hon. Friend's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The following is the answer referred to:

The total staff employed by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland on 31st January, 1921, was 297 permanent and 179 temporary. The number employed at the Head Office in Edinburgh was 386, and in other parts of Scotland 90. The number of officials receiving a salary, exclusive of bonus, of ( a ) £250 per annum and upwards was 91, and ( b ) under £250 per annum 385. The estimated total cost of salaries, bonuses, and allowances for the financial year ending 31st instant is £146,990, of which £12,060 is met from the Agriculture (Scotland) Fund.

Bowmore Distillery, Islay

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why an officer of the Inland Revenue is stationed at the Bowmore Distillery, in the island of Islay, seeing that the distillery has not worked for five years, and in view of the fact that an ordinary Inland Revenue officer also lives in the village?

The staff of two officers of Customs and Excise stationed at Bowmore was reduced to one in January last. Although the Bowmore Distillery was not at work during the period referred to, an earlier reduction of the staff was not possible because of the large stocks of non-duty paid spirits stored in the distillery warehouse, deliveries from which were generally required by the distiller at short notice. The other officer at Bowmore could not attend to this work as his duties in connection with Excise licences and Old Age Pensions required frequent journeys, not only to other parts of Islay, but also to the neighbouring islands of Jura and Colinsay.

Post Office

Telephone Service

asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been drawn to the Post Office circular "Telephones for Farmers and Residents in Rural Districts," in which it is suggested that, with a minimum of two subscribers on each line and to each mile of route, the rental for each subscriber would be only £3 10s. a year; whether a rural party line was in this way arranged to be connected to the Cheveley Exchange, Newmarket; whether, lured by the Post Office circular, a sub- scriber at Gazeley agreed on the 1st November last to the installation for a surcharge of £4 and an annual rental of £4 18s.; whether, on receipt of notice that after three months a further and indefinite increase would be made, this sub scriber, in view of the fact that work had not been started on the line, applied on 4th January for a cancellation of the agreement and a refund of his money; whether the Norwich contract manager refused to return the money except on the condition that £1 surcharge and three months' rental be retained; and whether, in all those cases where, though contracts had been signed prior to notice of the new charges being sent out, but where the installation has not yet been made, he will give instructions to repay in full any deposit which may have been paid by subscribers who, under the new conditions, do not feel it possible to afford the service?

I find that the circumstances of the case referred to were somewhat exceptional, and as expense was incurred only on some preliminary work, I have arranged to waive in this instance the charge which it was proposed to make as a condition of cancelling the agreement.

Do I understand that the claimant will get his money back in full with no deduction?

asked the Postmaster-General what has been the result of his inquiry into the accounting methods of the telephone service; and when he proposes to introduce some such simple system as is in force in other progressive countries so as to obviate the annoyance to subscribers and the excessive clericalism and cost which are involved in a multiplicity of accounts at varying dates?

The Select Committee on Telephone Rates approved a system proposed by the Post Office, under which the subscriber will receive each quarter a single account covering a quarter's installation rental in advance, and fees for local and trunk calls and telegrants in arrear. Existing subscribers will receive the first account early in July, and credit will be given in it for any unexpired portion of a payment made under the old agreement. Monthly accounts will be rendered for trunk calls on payment of a charge of 4s. a year, and a monthly statement of local calls will be furnished on payment of 10s. a year.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say how many different kinds of accounts the telephone user will receive?

Do we understand that subscribers are to pay a fee for getting a statement of accounts?

Will subscribers receive a monthly account for trunk calls a quarterly account for local calls and an annual account for rent?

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether or not subscribers, are to pay a fee if they ask for a statement of their accounts?

The question is complicated enough already without proceeding further.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the Controller of the London Telephone Service is insisting on the payment by private telephone users of the new charges for the next quarter in advance, in cases where such users have already paid the existing charges for many months in advance, and where the amount so paid in advance is in excess of the new charges for the next quarter; and whether he will give directions that credit shall at once be allowed for the moneys already so paid in advance instead of waiting till the end of the next quarter?

Subscribers at the old rates are not yet being asked to pay the charges under new agreements at the revised tariff. When accounts for the first quarter at that tariff are rendered, credit will be given for any amount due for return under the old agreements. If the hon. Member will furnish particulars of any departure from these arrangements, I will have inquiry made.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take care that the telephone user is not called upon to pay twice over in advance charges which are already high enough?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that subscribers are getting accounts in at the new rate and that there is no statement on the bill that allowance will be made for the unexpired portion of their subscription?

I was not aware of it. If the hon. Member has any case in mind perhaps he will send it to me.

In future when accounts are sent out will the right hon. Gentleman have them made out in ink in a legible way? They are now written in pencil and are often illegible.

Is the user called upon to pay these telephone charges twice over in advance?

asked the Postmaster-General whether the intention of Clause 14 of the general conditions of the new draft agreement for telephone exchange lines is to empower him to increase the quarterly subscription to any figure he pleases merely by posting to the subscriber a three months' notice running from the date of the notice and without giving the subscriber an opportunity of saying whether he assents to the increase or whether, if he does not assent, he wishes to terminate the agreement before the increase becomes operative?

A subscriber cannot be called upon, under the Clause in question, to pay an increased rate until the expiration of three months' notice. In the meantime he would have the option of terminating his agreement by similar notice.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that under the Clause as drawn the Postmaster-General may wait until the last day before the three months and give notice to increase the charge, and that after the receipt of it it will be too late for the subscriber to give three months' notice to terminate the tenancy? In that way the subscriber will be compelled to pay any increased rate that the right hon. Gentleman chooses to impose.

I hope the hon. and learned Member does not assume that any kind of unfair advantage like that will be taken.

In case anyone might take, unintentionally, an unfair advantage, will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that in the new agreement Clause 14 shall be drawn so that no one can take an unfair advantage?

Women Sorters, Birmingham

asked the Post master-General whether he is aware that in the Birmingham post office, women, some of whom are relatives of dead soldiers, and were employed full time in the post office during the War on all kinds of duties, are now employed on sorting work in the evening only, when the heaviest mails have to be dealt with; that the hours worked range from 17 to 28 per week, at 1s. per hour; that if these women were not employed, full time permanent servants would be engaged on the work; that, in consequence of the women being employed a part of every day, they are not entitled to part unemployment benefit, although the wages earned are insufficient to maintain them and their dependants; that, being employed only during the busiest hours, of the day, the women are actually doing, within a period of four or five hours, the normal work of a full day; and whether he will make arrangements either to employ these women full time or increase their hourly rate of pay to enable them to earn a sufficient wage?

The facts are as stated in the earlier part of the question. The employment of the women obviates serious wastage of force that would be involved if the work were performed by full-time staff; but it cannot be admitted that the women perform the normal work of a full day. The duties are not arduous; and they are remunerated at the standard hourly rate. It would be impracticable to employ the women on full-time duties; and I regret that an increase in the rate of payment is not warranted.

Telephone and Telegraph Wire

asked the Postmaster-General what quantities of new and second-hand telephone and telegraph wire ordered for the Army during the War have been handed over since the Armistice to the Disposal Board for re-sale; and whether it would have been more economical for the Post Office to have retained the same for use in improving and extending the telephone and telegraph services in this country?

I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to his previous question of the 1st instant, which applies to telephone and telegraph wire, and to all other signal stores. Of the wire which was returned to this country as surplus to Army requirements, 110 tons of galvanised iron wire and 18 tons of copper and bronze wire were found to be suitable for Post Office use, and were retained for my Department.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many thousand tons were left in France and sold with the dumps there?

Questions

Middle East, Arab Areas

asked the Prime Minister what Arab areas, if any, other than Mesopotamia, Aden, and Palestine, are within the British sphere of influence; and whether the cost of administering Aden will now be transferred from the Indian to the British taxpayer?

There are various parts of Arabia, outside the areas mentioned in the question, whose rulers have been in special Treaty relations with His Majesty's Government for many years past; for example, the Sheikhs of the Persian Gulf littoral and the Trucial coast. As regards the second part of the question, the question of the precise incidence of costs resulting from the transfer of the control over the Aden Protectorate to the Colonial Office is still under consideration.

Unemployment Insurance

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the desirability of instituting an inquiry into the cost and feasibility of a national compulsory unemployment insurance scheme embracing every worker below an agreed wage, under which beneficiaries could be sure of a subsistence and not merely a contributory payment?

I have been asked to reply. The only considerable portion of the wage-earning population not covered by the Unemployment Insurance Acts is that employed in agriculture and domestic service, and there is power to extend the Acts to agriculture and domestic service, if this is thought to be desirable. The only question that arises, therefore, is with regard to the weekly rates of benefit. Under the Act which became law last week, the rate of benefit was increased to 20s. for men and 16s. for women. Having regard to the very recent Debates in this House on the provisions of that Act, I do not think the inquiry suggested by my hon. Friend would serve any useful purpose at the present time.

Mesopotamia

asked the Prime Minister whether, before any new policy with regard to Mesopotamia is definitely adopted, the House of Commons will be afforded an opportunity of discussing it; and, if so, whether, before such discussion takes place, he will lay upon the Table of the House full papers dealing with the problems at issue?

Certainly; no new policy would be adopted without the knowledge of the House of Commons, and full information so far as possible would be given.

League of Nations

Secretariat

asked the Prime Minister whether Sir Eric Drummond is undertaking the office of Secretary-General of the League of Nations at the rata of £10,000 per annum, including salary and allowances; whether he, in addition, claims to be provided with a house in Geneva; whether there are employed in the Secretariat approximately 86 persons at salaries of £500 per annum and over; whether the appointment of these persons rests with the Secretary-General; and whether their salaries are awarded at his discretion?

The remuneration of the Secretary-General of the League of Nations is 200,000 gold francs (about £10,000), of which two-fifths represents salary and three-fifths allowances. He is also entitled to be provided with a house in Geneva. The answer to the third part of the question is in the affirmative. In accordance with Article VI. of the Covenant, the staff of the Secretariat is appointed by the Secretary-General with the approval of the Council of the League.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what proportion of this 200,000 gold francs payment falls upon this country?

Shall we have an opportunity of discussing this salary, and, if so, on what Vote?

Is there available anywhere a list of the establishment and charges, and, if not, will the right hon. Gentleman consider having one made with a footnote explaining the achievements resulting?

I cannot promise that, but it may interest my hon. Friends to know that the question of the expenses of the League was carefully considered at a meeting in Geneva, and in this instance also economy was considered.

Mandates

asked the Prime Minister whether the Council of the League of Nations has invited the Government of the United States of America to come into the next discussions upon A and B mandates; whether the British representatives approved this invitation; whether a similar invitation has been given to other nations which are not members of the League; whether, in view of the fact that the United States undertakes no responsibility in regard to the League, the invitation to discuss mandates places that nation in a privileged position; whether he will state how long the British Government intends to acquiesce in this privilege accorded to the United States; and whether he will give an assurance to the House that Great Britain shall not be placed in a disadvantageous position with regard to her Colonial policy by reason of her participation in the League

The League of Nations has not yet communicated the text of the reply which, according to reports in the Press, has been sent to the United States' Note about mandates. I am therefore not in a position to reply to the points raised by the hon. and gallant Member.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman consult the British delegates to the League of Nations for an answer whether or not an invitation has been sent?

I have no doubt whatever that it has been sent, and with the concurrence of the British representatives.

Is it not a fact that these areas or territories were, by the Treaties of Versailles and Sevres, handed over, not to the League of Nations, but to the Allied and Associated Powers, of which the United States of America is one, and that until the terms of the mandates have been approved, the United States of America, as an associated Power, has international status in discussing their future?

In effect, what my hon. Friend says is true, and as the United States of America had a very considerable part in the War, it is quite reasonable that it should consider these mandates.

Questions

Employment Exchanges

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the building of new employment exchanges was deferred in deference to Parliamentary opposition to the expenditure, and that since that date it has been the practice of other Departments to purchase premises before the money has been voted; whether he is aware that negotiations for the purchase of premises in Underwood Street, Finsbury, are now in progress; and whether the Government will stop this unconstitutional practice?

Every effort is made to obtain Parliamentary sanction to individual purchases which are not covered by previous Estimates, but special emergencies do arise occasionally in which the disadvantage to the public service of delaying a purchase would be so serious as to justify the purchase in anticipation of Parliamentary sanction. I could not promise that in no conceivable circumstances would such a thing happen, but I will do my utmost to avoid it As regards Underwood Street, Finsbury, the Government are not negotiating for the purchase of any premises, but are endeavouring to acquire certain leases. Any expenditure would be chargeable to the Rents sub-head of the Vote which is not allocated to particular items.

Coal Mines Control

asked the Prime Minister whether he can now make any statement as to the Government attitude towards the efforts now being made by the parties interested to secure the continuation of coal control beyond the end of this month?

I have been asked to answer this question. A statement of the Government's attitude in this matter will be made this afternoon in the course of the Debate on the Second Reading of the Coal Mines (Decontrol) Bill.

German Goods (Imports)

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to certain notices issued by im- porters of German goods in this country, urging their customers to buy at once, as in the event of the proposed export duty of 12 per cent. being imposed the price of the goods, will be increased; and what steps he proposes to take to prevent what will be in effect the subsidisation of the German Government by the English consumer?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. I have not seen any such notices, but I do not doubt that German exporters are always ready to find reasons why immediate orders should be placed with them. As regards the second part of the question, I am not prepared to admit that the imposition of such an export duty in Germany would necessarily, in present circumstances, raise prices to the English Consumers.

( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister if he can state when the exact conditions will be published under which purchasers of German goods will be required to pay 50 per cent. to the Exchequer, and whether these terms which have been imposed will in any way affect the proposed legislation in connection with the collapsed exchanges?

With regard to the first part of the question, a Bill will be introduced as soon as possible. The answer to the second part is in the negative.

I am afraid that, unless there is a general agreement to take it without discussion, that will be impossible.

Trade and Commerce

Wool

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that many farmers in the north of England find it impossible to sell their wool in consequence of the uncertainty in the minds of wool merchants and spinners as to the intention of the Government for disposing of the very large stocks of wool held by the Ministry of Munitions; and whether he can make a statement of the Government policy on this subject so that those concerned may know where they stand?

I have been asked to answer this question. I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to the hon. Member for the Harborough Division (Major Sir Keith Fraser) on the 21st February last. The policy of the Ministry of Munitions would tend to help rather than hinder the sale of the wool referred to.

Questions

First Lord of the Admiralty

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that Lord Tweedmouth, as First Lord of the Admiralty, in 1908, stated that the then Prime Minister held the very strong opinion that the political chiefs of the Navy and Army should be in the House of Commons, and that experience had convinced him that the Prime Minister was right; that Mr. Disraeli expressed the same opinion in 1864; that Sir James Graham gave it as his strong opinion to the Select Committee on Admiralty Administration in 1861; that the only other witnesses examined on the matter, Sir John Pakington and Sir Francis Baring, concurred in this opinion; and whether he can state why the unbroken practice for 13 years has now been departed from when the circumstances more than ever require the heads of great spending Departments to be in the House of Commons?

I have not been able to trace all the utterances quoted by my hon. and gallant Friend, but it is quite clear that they do not govern practice. Out of 16 First Lords who held office between 1861 and 1908, seven were in the Lords and nine in the Commons. The seven held office for 22 years, and the nine for 25 years. As regards the last part of the question, it would, in my opinion, be a great disadvantage to the public service if the Prime Minister in making his recommendation to His Majesty is not free to select the man whom he considers best for the post, irrespective of the House of Parliament in which he sits.

Is not the real point that the Estimates are exceedingly high now and that the House of Commons does control the expenditure, and that whenever this matter has been investigated by a Committee the general evidence has been in favour of the First Lord of the Admiralty being in the House of Commons?

That is probably true, but unfortunately there are many Departments in which there is spending, and if that were taken as the decisive factor, we should never have a Member of the House of Lords in the Government.

Government Departments (Overtime)

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the practice of working overtime in various Government Departments, in the Board of Education, the Claims and Records Department of the Ministry of Labour at Kew, and in the Savings Bank Department of the Post Office; whether he is aware that the staff of the Savings Bank Department, consisting of 1,500 women clerks, are at present working 12 hours per week overtime, and that they have worked an average of six hours per week overtime during the last year; whether numbers of temporary women clerks are at present being dismissed; whether the permanent staff are paid overtime rates averaging 2s. 6d. per hour, more than double the rate of the temporary clerk; and whether, in the interests of economy and also with a view to alleviating the distress due to unemployment, he will forthwith abolish overtime and reorganise the work so that the temporary clerks may be retained in employment?

I have been asked to reply. I am aware that it is still necessary to work overtime in certain Government Departments, including those mentioned. Every effort continues to be made to reduce the amount of overtime required, and in the Savings Bank Department of the Post Office it is at present much below the figure of 12 hours a week. Temporary women clerks are not at present being discharged from the Departments mentioned except when competent ex-service personnel is available to take their places. The rates of pay, including the overtime rates, of established women clerks are higher than those of temporary women clerks, who are recruited and graded on a different basis, but I regret that, owing to the fact that much of the work to be done requires a considerable degree of experience and to difficulties of accommodation, it is not practicable wholly to abolish overtime by re-organisation of work and increase of transfer of staff.

May I ask whether this practice is not very expensive to the taxpayer and very detrimental to the health of those who work in these offices, and whether it is not possible, by arranging a system of short time, to absorb a great number of temporary women clerks?

As far as expense goes, our experience is that short time does not result in saving, but one of the difficulties we are up against in this particular Department is accommodation, and that, of course, is a great deal more expensive. It is hoped that the necessity for overtime will have disappeared before long when all the arrears will have been caught up.

On the question of overtime, could not the girls work to a certain time and then let the others come in? There have been the most tragic cases of overwork in this Department, and there is great feeling among the women, and does it not seem to be a very poor national policy to overwork women clerks in this way when you are discharging hundreds of others, and is it not better in the national interest to give the other women the overtime work? There are hundreds of them who are ready and fitted for the work.

Enemy Air Raids (Compensation)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that, beyond a compassionate grant, no provision has been made for the wives and dependants of civilians killed in enemy air raids during the War; whether he will consider the desirability of giving such wives and dependants a first claim on any indemnity received from Germany; and if he will say to what Government Department representations as to those who are now in want because of the death of the bread-winner killed by enemy aircraft should be addressed and their needs met until an indemnity is forthcoming?

In reply to the first and third parts of the question, the wives and dependants of civilians killed in enemy air raids during the War received grants from public funds following generally the principles of the Workmen's Compensation Acts in pursuance of the undertaking given by my predecessor on the 28th June, 1917. Any such dependant who has not received a grant and wishes to apply for one should write to the Ministry of Health. In reply to the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to a question by the hon. Member for the Ladywood Division of Birmingham (Mr. N. Chamberlain) on the 4th May last.

National Expenditure (Select Committee)

asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to reappoint the Select Committee on National Expenditure; and whether in that case he will undertake, before the House rises, to give legislative effect to recommendations they may make and which may be approved by the House for the curtailment of national expenditure?

I would ask my hon. and gallant Friend to await the conclusion of the discussion now proceeding with the representatives of all parties in the House on the form of expenditure committee to be set up. I am sorry to say that, owing to the pressure of business caused by the Inter-Allied meetings in London with the German delegates, I have not yet been able to have a meeting of the gentlemen whom I have asked to-help me.

Cigars (Taxation)

asked the Chancellor of Exchequer whether the figures published by the Board of Trade for the 10 months ending 31st January, 1921, show the revenue accruing from the ad valorem tax on imported cigars to be approximately £235,000, as against the revenue for the same period in the previous year of £700,000; whether there will be a deficit upon his Budget estimate of £1,000,000; whether he is aware that a large proportion of the turnover of many thousands of tobacconists consists of Havana cigars: and whether the imposition of the present ad valorem tax is acting to the prejudice of this trade as well as involving great loss to the national revenue?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what revenue was received from the taxation of imported cigars for the last 10 months as compared with the corresponding periods of the two previous fiscal years; and what proportion of the 1920–21 figure is due to the extra taxation of the last Budget?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the yield of the 50 per cent. ad valorem duty on imported cigars has so far been actually less than the yield of a lower duty in the last financial year; and whether the object of the imposition of the 50 per cent. duty was to increase revenue or to reduce consumption?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the fact that in his last Budget he anticipated a revenue from the duty on imported cigars to amount to £1,300,000; whether he is aware of the fact that the revenue will not be more than £300,000, which is roughly £500,000 less than he received before he put on the added duty; and whether, in view of the lost revenue as a result of the increased taxation, he will abandon the added duty in his next Budget, particularly in view of the fact that the only way he can get revenue is by not restricting but by increasing the selling of the commodities he taxes, and that the extra duty, which he placed last year on imported cigars has caused such diminished sales that he has lost half a million of revenue which he might otherwise have obtained?

The net receipts from imported cigars for the first 11 months of the financial years 1918–19, 1919–20, and 1920–21 were £523,300, £811,700, and £313,300, respectively. The ad valorem duty represented 39 per cent. of the last-named figure. As regards the object of the tax, I can add nothing to what I said last year, and as regards its future, I would ask my hon. Friends to await the coming Budget discussions.

May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman is allowing free play in his own mind to these striking figures in formulating his Budget proposals?

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

Administration

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total cost of the administration of the pensions, including sums expended on rent of premises, cost of purchase, construction or alteration of premises for the use of the Ministry and its provincial offices, falling under the Vote of the Office of Works.

I have been asked to reply to this question. The expenditure on all the services mentioned, including that which falls on the Vote of the Office of Works, will be approximately £7,000,000. This figure includes a nonrecurring sum of £1,100,000 for capital expenditure on buildings.

Disability Pensions (Hospital Treatment)

asked the Minister of Pensions whether, when ex-officers re-enter hospital for the treatment of wounds received in war, maintenance of 4s. 6d. per day is stopped out of their disability pensions; whether, in the case of pensions up to about 40 per cent. this means the stoppage of the whole pension, and in the case of a 20 per cent. pension a payment of 15s. 9d. per week for being restored to health which had been lost in the service of the State; and whether, seeing that officers' families have in many cases to be supported out of the pensions while the pensioner is in hospital, he will either drop the 4s. 6d. per day maintenance or, alternatively, will raise the pension during hospital treatment to the rate of 100 per cent. disability?

My hon. and gallant Friend appears to have been misinformed. Unless the officer draws salary or sick-pay from his civil employment while in hospital his retired pay is raised to the maximum rate, under Article 6 of the Royal Warrant, and it is from this maximum retired pay that the maintenance deduction is made.

Am I to understand that discrimination is made against an officer who is in receipt of a salary as against an officer who enjoys private means, and why should this £210 limit apply only to the officer in receipt of salary? Why should the State in that case wriggle out of its obligation, and why should it meet its obligation where there are private means?

I think my hon. and gallant Friend is under a misapprehension. The State is not seeking to wriggle out of its duty, as I think my hon. and gallant Friend, on inquiry, will find.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, as a matter of fact, the State does pay this disability pension to 100 per cent. without question if £210 is reached by means of private income, as opposed to salary? Is that the case?

Then is it not the case that you are discriminating against salary in favour of private income, and can the right hon. Gentleman say why?

Questions

Estimates (Total Figuees)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Estimates for the administrative Departments can be so presented that they show the total expenditure of each Department, including sums expended by other Departments in their behalf?

The information is already given in the statement appended to the first page of each Estimate. I have already given directions that there shall be added in the Estimates for 1921–22 a line giving a total figure including the cost of the services rendered by other Departments

Income Tax (British Subjects Abroad)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will adopt the recommendation of the Royal Commission on Income Tax and grant to a British subject residing abroad the same relief which he may grant to a British subject resident in the United Kingdom; and whether, having regard to the hardships imposed on British subjects residing in the Colonies under the existing Act, such relief may be made retrospective?

My hon. and gallant Friend appears to have overlooked Section 24 of the Finance Act, 1920, which deals with the relief from Income Tax claimable by British subjects residing abroad, and which precisely carries out the recommendation made by the Royal Commission on the Income Tax in regard to this subject in paragraph 65 of their Report.

Food Supplies

Costings Committee, Scotland

asked the Minister of Food the cost of the Scottish Costings Committee; and whether it is intended to continue this Committee by transferring it to any other Department after the termination of the Ministry?

There is no separate Scottish Costings Committee. If the hon. Member refers to the Scottish staff of the Agricultural Costings Committee, the annual cost, including travelling expenses, was about £4,100. It is not proposed to transfer this staff to any other Department on the termination of the Ministry.

Cornstacks, Horsham

asked the Minister of Food if he proposes to take further action in the case reported by the Assistant Commissioner for enforcement for Divisional Food Commissioner, London and Home Counties division, on 16th November, 1920, of gross neglect by the Horsham Urban District Council in allowing four stacks of wheat, barley and oats, respectively, to become unfit for human consumption as a result of not thatching these ricks, although plenty of straw, to the extent of two and a half loads, was sent to the stables; and, in view of the bad example set to farmers or landed proprietors, will he again consider the gravity of this case?

No, Sir. The matter formed the subject of correspondence between the Divisional Food Commissioner, London and Home Counties, and the Horsham Urban District Council. The necessary steps were taken by the Council in November last, to avoid the possible recurrence of damage to cornstacks, and I do not consider that any useful purpose would be served by reopening the matter.

May I ask whether "the necessary steps" mean local authorities or farmers are instructed to employ thatchers and so save the food of the country, or are they still allowed to do without thatchers because of a dispute over a ½d. an hour?

The trouble in this case was that the local district council did, in fact, neglect to thatch certain stacks of wheat and barley, and damage was sustained in consequence. The matter was fully, gone into, and the local district council have given satisfactory assurances as to the steps which they propose to take in order to prevent any recurrence of damage of that kind. If the hon. Member wants me to let him have full particulars of what the council have promised to do, I shall be very glad to let him have them, if he will give me notice.

Tinned Milk

asked the Minister of Food if any steps are being taken to reduce the price of foreign tinned milk imported into this country, which rose to 1s. 4½d. per tin when sugar and milk advanced in price and has not been reduced pro rata since these foodstuffs fell in price?

Control of the prices of condensed milk was removed a year ago, and I do not propose to reintroduce it. It must be remembered that some time must necessarily elapse before the reduction in the cost of the raw materials can become effective.

Wheat Prices

asked the Minister of Agriculture what procedure has been adopted for the guidance of farmers who want their wheat prices adjusted to meet the new guaranteed price, and what instructions have been given to the millers?

The procedure is set out in a statement which is somewhat lengthy, and accordingly, with the permission of the House, I will have it printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Star Court (Stacking Slates)

asked the First Commissioner of Works for what purpose slates are being stacked in the Star Court; how much area is likely to be so occupied; and for how long?

The slates in question, which occupy about one quarter of the area, of the Court, are required for use in connection with the repairs to the roof of Westminster Hall. The space occupied will not be increased, and will be required until the repairs are completed.

Questions

Victoria Embankment Buildings

asked the First Commissioner of Works for what purpose the buildings in the Victoria Embankment Gardens are now being used; and whether it would be possible to remove these buildings for the summer months, in view of the grave restriction imposed by their presence upon the public enjoyment of the gardens?

The buildings in the Victoria Embankment Gardens on the west side of Charing Cross Bridge are wholly occupied by War Office staffs; those on the east side by various staffs of the Admiralty, War Office, Ministry of Munitions and the Disposal Board. I am constantly endeavouring to secure the removal of these buildings, but they cannot be dispensed with until further reductions of Government staffs are effected. It would in no case be possible to remove the buildings and restore the ground in time for the coining summer.

Will the right hon. Gentleman remove the buildings from St. James's Park before he removes the buildings from the Embankment?

Sanatorium Benefit

asked the Minister of Health whether, now that sanatorium benefit has been eliminated from the Health Insurance scheme, when it is proposed to take the necessary action to carry out the pledge that insured persons would not suffer any deprivation of the benefit?

The date fixed for the termination of sanatorium benefit in England and Wales is the 30th April next, and my right hon. Friend is hoping to introduce shortly a Bill dealing with the arrangements to be made for the treatment of tuberculosis after that date.

Education

School Children, Employment

asked the President of the Board of Education whether, owing to the fact that the operation of Clause 8 of the Education Act, 1918, has been suspended, a great number of children under 14 will, under existing bye-laws, be released from school at Easter; whether these children are prevented by the operation of the Women, Young Persons, and Children (Employment) Act from finding employment except as messengers and in similar work; and whether he will take steps to put an end to this undesirable state of affairs?

It is scarcely accurate to say that the operation of Clause 8 of the Education Act, 1918, has been suspended. The date has not yet arrived when, under the provisions of that Act, the Board of Education can legally bring it into operation. The only children who will be released from school at Easter are children on whose behalf a claim is made that they are entitled to exemption under the existing bye-laws, and, generally speaking, such a claim cannot be sustained unless the local education authority are satisfied that they are to be beneficially employed. With regard to the last two parts of the question, I may refer to the answer I gave to a similar question on the 16th February to the hon. Member for Central Hackney (Mr. Woolcock).

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in the city of Nottingham alone, 1,700 children at least will be released at Easter, that fully half of these children will be under 14 years of age, and, owing to the fact that they are not capable now of being employed in industrial employment, all the employment open to these children will be of a purely blindalley character?

School Attendance, Shropshire

asked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware that there are in Shropshire 16 schools with an average attendance below 30; that in one of these schools the average attendance is only 13, while the head mistress receives a salary of £280 and the assistant one of £25; and that if this school were closed no child would have more than one mile to go to another school; and will he, in the interest of economy, take what steps he is able to assist the education committee of the Shropshire County Council to close such of these schools that can be dispensed with without injury to the education of the children?

According to the Board's figures for the year 1919–20 there were 26 schools in Shropshire with an average attendance of less than 30, but none with an average attendance of 13. In the absence of details enabling the Board to identify the particular school, it is impossible to say what is the salary of the teacher or teachers and the distance from the nearest school. Section 9 of the Education Act, 1902, imposes on the Board the duty of determining, in case of dispute, whether a school is necessary or not, but the Board are not aware of any present dispute over a proposal to close a public elementary school in Shropshire.

Questions

Captain Fryatt Memorial Fund

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether he is aware that the Captain Fryatt Memorial Fund was formed for relieving cases of suffering and distress amongst the widows and orphans of members of the mercantile marine who were killed in the War, and the like cases amongst the disabled members themselves, that over £5,000 has already been expended out of this fund on this work, and that applications for assistance for such cases are being received from all quarters of the United Kingdom; whether he will state why no part of the proceeds of the sale of the ss. "Brussels" has been appropriated in aid of the Captain Fryatt Memorial Fund; whether, before apportioning these proceeds of sale, the Shipping Controller consulted any of the panels of the National Maritime Board or the full board; when and by what person on behalf of this board were any recommendations made as to the apportionment of these proceeds of sale; and whether he will now make a grant to the Captain Fryatt Memorial Fund?

I am aware of the particulars contained in the first part of the question. It was decided that the proceeds of the sale, amounting to £3,100, should be applied in establishing some memorial, or endowing some seamen's institution, with which the name of Captain Fryatt would be permanently associated, as suggested by my hon. Friend in his question in June last. The Shipping Controller, before distributing the money, decided to consult the Chairman of the National Maritime Board (which represents all ranks in the Mercantile Marine), and received the advice of the joint chairmen of that board. The Controller approved these recommendations, and the money has been paid to the Limpsfield Convalescent Home (£1,000), and the Dovercourt Cottage Hospital and Fryatt Memorial Fund (£2,100).

Will the hon. Gentleman consider favourably the granting of a sum of money to this fund out of any income that may become available?

I cannot possibly reconsider the matter in regard to this particular fund, which has already been distributed, and I am not aware of any other fund which may become available for the purpose which my hon. Friend has mentioned.

Stationery Office (Paper Stocks)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the weight and value of paper stock held by His Majesty's Stationery Office in January, 1914, and also in January, 1921; will he say if it is necessary that such a large stock should be maintained, necessitating the purchase of costly buildings as stores; and whether the large purchases of paper by His Majesty's Stationery Office has had a material effect in the advance of prices of paper; and does any Government control exist over paper mills in this country?

The total stocks of paper held by the Stationery Office at its headquarters in London and at all out-stations in London, Manchester, Edinburgh and Dublin are as follow:—

Ministry of Health (Regrading Scheme)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the official re-grading scheme for the Ministry of Health provides that one supervising officer will be required for every four male clerical officers while one supervising officer is sufficient for every 10 women; and, if so, whether this differentiation is based on the greater efficiency of the women?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The re-grading scheme of the Ministry of Health does not provide for supervisory posts in any proportion either for men or women. The number of higher clerical posts is governed by the amount of work suitable for such posts, and the need for supervision of staff is only one element in assessing the amount of the work.

Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman realise that these re-grading schemes are causing very great dissatisfaction?

Land Registry, Map Department

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what were the number of hours a day worked by persons in the Map Department of the Land Registry Office and the rate of pay for overtime; and what is the normal number of hours a day worked in the other Departments of the Civil Service?

The number of hours being worked at present by the officers of the Map Department of the Land Registry is, on the average, eight per diem. The rate of payment for overtime is the same as that in force generally in the Civil Service, and varies from 1s. 9d. per hour to 4s. 5d. per hour, according to the grade of the officer. With reference to the last part of the question, the normal number of hours worked per diem is seven. This number is, however, frequently exceeded, often without extra payment. Every endeavour is made to confine overtime within the narrowest possible limits.

Oil Borings

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions what is the present state of affairs as far as production of and boring of oil in this country is concerned; what concessions have so far been granted; whether any of the oil produced at Hardstoft has been disposed of; if so, at what price and to what firm; what was the market price of oil at the time of its disposal; what use is being made of oil now being produced; and whether the maximum amount of oil that could be produced is being obtained?

No operations for oil boring are now conducted by the Ministry of Munitions, but I have obtained the following information from the Petroleum Department. With regard to the first part of the question, the position has not materially changed since the issue of the last Report on this work, which was published in the Press on the 4th February, 1921. No concessions have been granted, but licences to bore under the Petroleum Production Act of 1918 have been issued to Oilfields of England, Limited, English Oilfields, Limited, and R. Gilbey, and have been laid on the Table of the House. As was stated in reply to a previous question on this subject, 500 tons of the oil produced at Hardstoft has been sold. The purchasers were the Anglo-American Oil Company, and the price realised was £22 10s. per ton. There is no market price for crude oil in this country, but the figure realised was a very good one as compared with values in other countries. The oil now produced is being stored. The quantity could no doubt be increased by pumping, and it is proposed to carry out a pumping test as soon as certain plant arrives.

Ireland

Murders, Limerick

( by Private Notice ) asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he can inform the House by what armed forces Alderman George Clancy, Mayor of Limerick, was shot dead, and his wife wounded, at their house yesterday; also by whom Councillor Michael O'Callaghan, ex-Mayor of Limerick, was shot and fatally wounded yesterday; and whether these murders took place during the curfew hours, and were so-called reprisals carried out by armed forces of the Crown?

According to the report which I have received these men were murdered in curfew hours on the night of the 6th-7th instant by men in civilian clothes who were apparently disguised. The motive of these abominable crimes is very obscure. Both O'Callaghan and Clancy, although admitted Sinn Feiners, were, I am informed, of the moderate type, and were looked upon by the military and police as being largely responsible for the quiet condition of Limerick for a considerable time past. The police have up to the present been unable to find any clue as to the perpetrators of the crime. A military court of inquiry in lieu of inquest will be held in each case. My right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary has directed that the findings shall be reported to him immediately the inquiry is completed.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the houses of these two murdered men have been repeatedly searched by the military authorities?

Is this not a case where a public inquiry by the ordinary method of a Coroner's inquest should be adopted, as there is no reason of military exigency that can be urged against that course?

A military court of inquiry will be held in each case. The hon. Member's suggestion will be considered.

Why cannot an ordinary court of inquiry be held, in order that the public may have an opportunity of knowing the details as to the assassination of these two people?

Questions

Income Tax, Demand Notes

( by Private Notice ) asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if it is with his authority that Surveyors of Taxes in Yorkshire are threatening business firms with only seven days' notice that if payment of Income Tax is not made by 8th March, distraint will follow, and if he considers that this is the best way of assisting firms struggling against depression of trade and financial difficulty?

I have no information as to any particular cases. The Income Tax demand notes are issued not by the Surveyor of Taxes but by the Collectors, whose statutory duty it is to enforce payment by distraint where necessary in cases of neglect or refusal to pay. I must remind my hon. Friend that the tax in question became due on the 1st January last.

Business of the House

May I ask the Leader of the House what business, on the assumption that the first Order of the Day runs until eleven o'clock, it is proposed to take after that hour; and secondly, will he undertake not to commence any Supplementary Estimates after eleven o'clock?

If the discussion on the first Order should go on till eleven o'clock, we shall not take any Supplementary Estimates after that hour, but if, by any chance, the discussion ends and a Supplementary Estimate has been entered upon, then probably we shall try to finish it. After eleven o'clock we propose to take further stages of the Bills on the Order Paper.

Children [Treasury Contributions]

Committee to consider of authorising the removal as from the first day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty, of the limitation imposed by Section seventy-three of the Children Act, 1908, to contributions from the Treasury towards the expenses of certified schools ( King's Recommendation signified ), To-morrow.—[ Lord Edmund Talbot. ]

New Member Sworn

PATRICK JOSEPH HENRY HANNON, Esquire, for the Borough of Birmingham (Moseley Division).

Bill Presented

MERCHANT SHIPPING (No. 2) BILL,

"to amend enactments relating to Merchant Shipping and to make further provision with respect thereto, and to amend and extend Section seven of The Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906, and Section five of The Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act, 1919, and to repeal certain enactments, and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid," presented by Mr. SEXTON; supported by Mr. dynes, Mr. Tillett and Mr. Wignall; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 5th April, and to be printed. [Bill 36.]

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to,

Consolidated Fund (No. 1) Bill, without Amendment.

Selection (Standing Committees)

Chairmen's Panel

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had selected the following Twelve Members to be the Chairmen's Panel, and to serve as Chairmen of the Six Standing Committees appointed under Standing Order No. 47: Major Barnston, Mr. Hodge, Mr. William Nicholson, Sir Halford Mac-kinder, Mr. T. P. O'Connor, Sir Samuel Roberts, Sir Watson Rutherford, Mr. James Henry Thomas, Mr. Turton, Mr. John William Wilson, Sir William Pearce, and Mr. Rendall.

Chairmen's Panel (Appointment of Members Under Parliament Act, 1911)

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That, in pursuance of Section 1, Sub-section (3), of the Parliament Act, 1911, they had appointed Mr. John William Wilson and Mr. Turton from the Chairmen's Panel, with whom Mr. Speaker shall consult, if practicable, before giving his certificate to a Money Bill.

Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Member from the Parliamentary Panel under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899: Major William Murray; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Ford.

Reports to lie upon the Table.

Orders of the Day

Coal Mines (Decontrol) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

The Bill proposes to carry out the intention, clearly declared some weeks ago by the Government, to decontrol the coal industry at the earliest possible moment, and I venture to think the course we ask the House to adopt will be acceptable to a large majority of those who support the Government, and also to some of its most ardent critics on the opposite Benches. I gather from a Motion on the Paper that those who represent the mining industry are opposed to this proposal. I find it a little hard to understand why that is so, because from no one have I received more vehement criticism with regard to control than I have from the hon. Gentlemen who have put down the Motion to reject the Second Reading of this Bill. They have very seldom missed an opportunity of saying how the Government have muddled the coal trade, and I think hon. Members who now cheer that statement will find some difficulty in cheering the opposition to decontrol. The hon. Member for the Ogmore Division (Mr. Hartshorn) made a speech on the Address in which he said that, having regard to the muddled fashion in which the Board of Trade had dealt with the coal question, he did not think anyone could lament the possibility of getting the industry freed from control.

I am going to deal with the reasons afterwards. I want to point out that it is not quite consistent for hon. Gentlemen to say that a great deal of harm has been done by control, and then to be vehemently opposing any proposal to take off that control. They appear to me to be rather in the position of a girl who might say, "It is very wrong of you to put your arm round my waist, please do not take it away." I cannot help thinking that really in their hearts they dislike control as much as we do, and will be very glad when the operation is satisfactorily over. As far as the vast majority of the House is concerned control by the Government of any industry, and especially a great industry, is felt to be a thoroughly abominable thing, objectionable in every way, and only justifiable under the stress of the direst public necessity. In this case, control of the coal industry was a war measure justifiable only by the War, and its continuance is only justifiable if good reasons can be shown why it should be continued and that harm will be done if it is removed. The attitude of the Government has always been, since the War, that the only real excuse, the only real justification for keeping on control, was that the difference between the world price of coal and the cost of production at home was so great that if there was no control either the coal trade would be tempted to send an abnormal quantity abroad or else home industries would have to pay the full world price in order to get the coal. That is the only reason which justified control being kept on when the War was over, and the Government have said again and again that when the world's price approximates to the price at which you can get coal at home and to the cost of production then control will be taken off.

I am speaking of the last two years since the War, and I say that control was justified up to the last month. [ Interruption. ]

Hon. Members should really be content to listen. It is not fair to make interruptions in the opening statement

I am sorry that I did not catch the interruption, but I understand now what it was. I was not speaking in any technical sense of the termination of the War; I was only speaking of the cessation of hostilities. After the cessation of hostilities the only reason for continuing control was the difference between the world's price and the cost of production. The Government again and again made it quite clear that when that difference ceased then would be the moment when control would be taken off. Before the War the difference was only a shilling or two per ton. During the War it was only from 6s. to 7s. per ton. After the War it went up enormously, and it is no exaggeration to say that a difference of from 40s. to 50s. per ton existed in 1920, the highest time. The moment has now arrived when the only reason for keeping on control has gone. Everyone knows the present state of the coal industry, and I need not elaborate it. The difficulty is to dispose, either at home or abroad, of the coal which we can produce. As everyone knows, we entered into an arrangement during the strike by which a temporary settlement was made till the 31st March, and, although I think justification could have been shown for taking off control completely on 1st March, when we took off control of prices and distribution, it would not in my opinion have been reasonable to take off complete financial control until the expiration of the period comprised in the temporary settlement to which we came in October last.

The present position is one of such gravity that we cannot any of us afford to approach the question in any but the most serious spirit. I very much resent, as connected with the coal industry from the position which I occupy, a good deal of the abuse that I hear of the industry for being responsible for the universal slump in trade. I do not think it is fair to attribute it to the coal industry any more than to any other industry. I do not think it is fair to forget that during the period of control those engaged in the coal trade took with a very good grace the Regulations which prevented them from making very much higher profits, and probably very much higher wages. I do not think it is fair to forget that by their action they enabled other industries to get their coal at a reasonable price and to make profits and wages quite as great as, and perhaps greater than, were made in the coal industry. Therefore, it is not fair to attribute to the coal industry the blame for all the present trouble. If every industry had shown as public a spirit as the coal industry, perhaps they would have done better than they have done. At any rate, although later I am going to say that I think mistakes were made by the coal industry, it is very unfair to forget the great services that the industry rendered to the country and the way in which it put up with the control which was placed upon it.

I want to say, as fairly as I can, that I think a great opportunity was missed during the two years, 1919–20, by the coal trade. There was a great deal of agita- tion on behalf of nationalisation which caused unrest in the trade. There were perpetual demands for increased wages. I do not complain of that. I think the miners were perfectly right to try to secure for themselves their proper share of any increased profits that there were. They naturally fought against proposals which they thought were taxing the industry too highly. I am not complaining of that. I do, however, complain that during those two years they missed a great opportunity by not increasing the output as they might have done. I am not putting the blame on any particular section of the industry. I think the miners did not make the efforts that they might have made, because they were looking forward at one time to nationalisation. I do not think the owners made the efforts that they might have made, because they were looking forward to a period when control might come offhand when they thought that possibly larger profits might be made. I think the whole artificial atmosphere of control contributed. It was inevitable. It was only natural that it should contribute towards general slackness in the business over which the control was placed. It was only after the fight in the autumn of last year that both parties admitted that the essential thing was an increase in output, but then unfortunately it was too late. It was too late, because during the strike and during the period immediately before, when the strike was being threatened, we were not in a position to export the amount of coal that we had exported, and that moment was the signal for the capture of the European market by American and other traders. I do not want to weary the House with any figures, but I want to make it quite plain that it was perfectly possible to produce enough coal to have satisfied the demand from Europe and so have kept those markets which have now, only temporarily, I hope, gone from us.

That does not account for it. In 1913 our total output was 287,000,000 tons and our exports amounted to 73,000,000 tons. During the four years 1910–13 the average was 271,000,000 tons, and in 1919–20 we had fallen to 229,000,000 tons and our exports were only 35,000,000 tons in 1919 and 24,000,000 tons in 1920

I have not taken out the average, but the highest year was 1913 when we exported 73,000,000 tons. I am afraid that I have not the figures, but I can easily get them for the hon. Member.

Can you give us the markets which we had then and tell us why we have not got them to-day?

I am trying to explain why we have not got them. It is because, instead of producing 287,000,000 tons, we have only produced 229,000,000 tons. That is quite sufficient answer. When the coal trade arrived, very tardily, at the view that output was the important thing, they produced, even with seven hours instead of eight, at a rate of 260,000,000 tons per year, and they could have done that any time in 1920 and a good part of 1919. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] The total number of men engaged in the trade in 1920 was more on the whole than those engaged before the War. All that I am trying to do this afternoon is to speak the truth. I am not apportioning the blame between the miners, the owners, and the Government Departments. I think I have proved, without any possible doubt, that the loss of the European market was due to the bad output in this country

It is quite irregular for hon. Members to interrupt a Minister when explaining the provisions of a Bill.

If hon. Members cannot contain themselves, it is not wise to sit in the House.

I am trying to make my case as plainly as I can, and I expect to get plain speeches in response. I want to avoid being thought desirous of skating round the subject. I want to treat it as a serious subject which everyone has to face and realise. I want to say a word or two about the provisions of the Bill. It is a very short and on the whole a very simple Bill In the first place, it means that all directions as to wages and profits cease on 31st March, and, so far as the Coal Mines Emergency Act extends them to the 31st August, that is repealed, and the 31st March is substituted as the date of termination. The second part of the Bill deals with the division of the pool. That is a some what complicated matter and one which I fear I may find some difficulty in explaining to those who have not followed the intricacies of the coal controversies during the last two years. But the hon. Gentlemen whose names are down to move the rejection of the Second Beading of this Bill are quite familiar with them and will be able to follow me without any difficulty. Under the original Act the owners were guaranteed nine-tenths of their pre-War standard of profits and if there was enough money they would get their full pre-War standard of ten-tenths, and one-tenth of any surplus which there might be. It has become necessary to split the pool into two sections for this reason. At the time that the settlement of the strike was made it was generally agreed that everybody should exert themselves to the fullest possible extent to improve output, and a scale of wages was fixed which would vary in proportion to the profits on production which depended on output. I remember very well Mr. Smillie saying, on behalf of the Miners' Federation, that, although they might agree to put forth every effort they could to increase output, they might be prevented from realising their hopes and wishes by the action of the owners, who might be interested in retarding output. It was not very likely, I think, that the owners would be interested in retarding output, but it was a reasonable argument to bring forward. In order to meet it the owners said, "To show our desire to join with you in producing as much as we possibly can, we will agree to regulate, during this period of temporary settlement, our share of the surplus profits which remain in the pool after the pre-War standard. We will agree to regulate them by graduations which will go up and down in harmony with the graduations of the rise and fall in the wages which the men get." It was therefore so arranged that this 10 per cent. of the surplus profits which the owners were to get was to be raised by 2½ to 12½ per cent. when the miners' wages had grown from 2s. to 2s. 6d.— that was to say, it was to go up by 2½ per cent. for every sixpence by which the men's wages rose, and, on the other hand, it was to go down by 2½ per cent. for every sixpence which the men's wages went down below 2s. In order to carry out that arrangement, it became necessary to split up the pool, because it was clear that that arrangement could only apply to the temporary period of settlement.

A different arrangement has now been made with regard to the owners' profits. It has now been arranged that for the first period, which includes the seven quarters up to 31st December of last year, the owners are only to take their pre-War standard of profits. Their share of the pool—one-tenth—is to be carried over into this quarter on condition that the rest of the pool, which the Government, as the House knows, intended to give to the Exchequer, is to be carried over with it to finance this quarter which—and I think this must be obvious to everybody—is going to be a quarter in which heavy losses will have to be met. So far as we are able to calculate—the accounts have not yet been finally examined or audited—the amount left in the pool at the end of December last will be something about £16,500,000. If the owners had decided—

It is for the seven quarters ending on 31st December, 1920. If the owners had insisted on what they were entitled to claim, they could have taken out, besides their pre-War standard of profit, about £1,600,000 as their share of the surplus profits, but they have agreed, and the Government have agreed, to carry over the whole of the pool to finance the present quarter. With regard to the present quarter, according to the arrangement under the strike settlement, the owners would have been entitled to about eight per cent. of the surplus profits in that quarter, but it is quite plain that there will be no surplus profits over the pre-War standard during the present quarter. It has, therefore, been arranged that there shall be no claim by the owners for any surplus profits over their pre-War standard, and that is the explanation of the second part of this Bill. Before I sit down I want to deal with one or two of the objections which I have seen raised in the Press and elsewhere to the course which the Government are proposing. One statement which has been made is that we are leaving the industry in the lurch at the critical moment.

It is perfectly clear that that view is held by some of the hon. Gentlemen who sit opposite.

I do not agree, but I should like everybody to know more about this question than they do. The Government are carrying the trade, for three of the worst months that it has ever had, at higher wages than it has ever had during one of those months, and at pre-War profits to the owners. No one has a right to say, under those circumstances, that we are leaving the industry in the lurch, and I entirely repudiate that view. What other industry during the last few months has been able to make profits or wages compared to their previous earnings?

By the strike settlement the miners' wages were increased by £10,000,000 during that period, and I certainly think it is a little ungrateful to talk about leaving the industry in the lurch when the Government have met what I hope will be the three worst months in the trade in the way which they have. Another accusation which has been made—it was made, I think, in this House in a Supplementary Question—is that to ask Parliament to repeal the original Act and to change the date of the termination of control from 31st August to 31st March is a breach of faith. A breach of faith with whom? Is it with the owners, who did nothing but clamour to have an earlier date than 31st August put in when we were considering the measure, or is it with the miners, who absolutely boycotted the Act, who would not sit on the Committee, who would not say what date they wanted to have, and who absolutely refused to work the Act in any way?

I am afraid that that is what is known as a rhetorical question. The hon. Gentleman should address the Chair if he wishes to raise a point of order.

Yet another statement which I have seen made in the Press and elsewhere is that the course which we are pursuing is one that is calculated to prevent a settlement being made between the owners and the men. The representatives of the owners and the miners have had over four months now in which to consider the permanent settlement of wages which they undertook to consider as the result of the strike settlement. They have made very considerable progress—

Yes, I claim that they have made very considerable progress. I know the hon. Gentleman has always been very sceptical about the progress that they would make. I do not despair, and I am quite certain that if the hon. Gentleman himself and Mr. Evan Williams were to sit down and discuss the matter together they could perfectly easily effect a settlement. The hon. Gentleman knows that quite well.

The representatives of the owners and of the men have made very considerable progress. They have agreed that wages must conform to the capacity of the industry to pay them. That is very considerable progress. They have agreed that the receipt of a standard wage shall be justified by a corresponding minimum profit to the colliery undertaking. They have also agreed that any surplus remaining afterwards shall be divided between the men and the owners in an agreed proportion, the workpeople's share to be in addition to their standard wages.

I am only quoting from what I have seen stated in the newspapers, from the report of the Joint Committee. I only go by what I see in the newspapers stated by Mr. Evan Williams, which I have not seen contradicted by anyone on the other side of the Table. What he said was that wages must conform to the capacity of the industry to pay them. Great progress has been made, and nothing that we have done prevents their going on from that basis to a settlement at the earliest possible moment. On the contrary, what we have done is to bring them right up against the realities of the situation and to show them that it is essential that some arrangement should be arrived at at the earliest possible moment. If control had been allowed to be deferred till 31st August, their difficulties would have been exactly the same at the end of that time as they are now, and I think they would have gone on throwing compliments to each other, and postponed arrival at the real crux of the situation until, we will say, 8th August. Therefore, nothing we have done has prevented a settlement being reached, and nothing has retarded or in any way destroyed the agreement as far as it has gone, and all we have done is to put some stimulant on towards their arriving at an honourable agreement. I am quite sure hon. Members opposite desire as much as I do that an honourable agreement for all parties should be arrived at. It is the only hope for the trade. May I put to the House what are the possible alternatives to the course that we are proposing?

Hon. Members opposite, or those who speak for them in conference, have stated that that is only to be decided at the polls, and the successes which they have recently won may lead them to hope that nationalisation may shortly come. If so, their hopes may be brighter than I think they are, but at any rate nationalisation is not practical politics at the present time. There is another alternative, and that is, that the Government should arbitrarily raise the prices for selling coal. I for one would never agree to such a proposal at such a time. I think it would be absolutely fatal to attempt such a thing, from the Government point of view, at a time of depression such as we are in now. Even if we attempted it, it is very doubtful if this process could be realised. You may say the fixed price would be so much, but you cannot be sure of anyone buying it at that price. The other alternative is a subsidy from the Exchequer to the coal industry, which in our calculations would mean at least £5,000,000 a month for the months between 31st March and 31st August. I do not believe for a moment that the representatives of the Miners' Federation would seriously propose that the rest of the taxpayers of the country should subsidise them to that extent during the next four months. The hon. Gentleman himself, in the speech which I have quoted from, and which I am sorry I did not hear, said:

Another speech by Mr. Frank Hodges has been quoted very often lately. I have only seen a summary of it, and it certainly astonished me very much when I read that the only thing to do was to give a subsidy from the Exchequer to the industry for the next few months. I know that Mr. Hodges is too good an economist to think it is right for the coal or any other industry to exist upon subsidies, and my impression is that the words he used have been rather too much abbreviated by the Press, and that what he meant was that there were only two alternatives, one the very undesirable one of going to the State for a subsidy, and the other facing the necessity of taking lower wages and lower profits in the industry. That is the only possible solution of the difficulty at the present moment. When you come to think that the wages amount to 78 per cent. of the total cost of production, you cannot disguise from yourselves the fact that if you are going to be able to produce coal at a price which will tempt people to buy, wages as well as profits must decline in order to meet the situation. I think that after hon. Members opposite have delivered their attack upon these proposals, they will be very glad to find themselves after the end of this month free from control. I am quite certain it is best for the owners and for the miners. I am quite certain it is best for the Coal Controller. That is not a job for a man who suffers from nervous irritability. But I should be very ungrateful if I did not admit that all sections of the trade have administered their abuse to me with an amount of consideration which is as great as you could possibly expect when you consider the necessity of forcible expression, and if I never have another chance I should like to say now that I have felt most sincerely that in all the differences I have had—and I have had differences with every section of the trade at one time or another—they have always shown that they realise the very difficult position that the Controller was in.

I shall not be sorry when control is taken off, and I hope I shall have learned something by it. At any rate, if I have not learnt how to control coal, I shall have learnt how to control myself. I am quite certain that decontrol is the best for the public. It is far better that they should be brought up straight against those who are selling what they want to buy, that the vendor should be put into direct touch with the customer, that the owner should be himself interested in finding new markets and in reducing the working cost—there is no inducement to do that under control—and that in future, if the buyer of coal has any complaint to make, he will not be met with the statement that it is the fault of the Government if he cannot get what he wants. So I am absolutely convinced that this measure is for the good of all in this country. I am convinced that it is perfectly possible for the coal trade to come to an agreement amongst themselves for the future division, a fair division, of the profits of the trade. There is one permanent good result from control at any rate, and that is that it has brought about the publication of the quarterly statistics which show what the actual cost of production is and where the money goes. That is a permanent result of control. It may be the only one which posterity will point to as a good result. But I think it is really the crux of the situation and that, given those figures, given goodwill—and it does exist in the coal trade; good temper is existing now under very trying circumstances—it is perfectly possible with those figures, plain to the eye of everyone, to arrive at a settlement which can easily be proved to be fair to the majority, if not to the whole of the people concerned. There will be no further room for misrepresentation as to huge profits or huge wages. People will see what the industry is producing, and what is to be done now. What gives a glorious opportunity to the coal trade to lead the way in bringing to an end this disastrous depression which now exists, is that they should face the situation, each prepared to take the proper share of adversity, as they have shared in prosperity, and each prepared to draw up a system by which in the future, if there is, as I hope there will be, returning prosperity to the trade, that prosperity will be fairly divided between the owners and the miners.

I beg to move to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."

I am rather glad the right hon. Gentleman in the concluding part of his speech carried out the intention he expressed at the beginning, namely, to treat the matter seriously. It did seem to me that during at least one-half of his speech, he exhibited a spirit of jocosity not at all compatible with the desire expressed at the beginning. During the last 15 or 16 years I have known in this House occasions of great doubt in connection with industry and the condition of the State resulting from the inner conditions of the coal mines. We all of us have known the travail through which the State has passed, and we have from time to time appealed to gentlemen on the Government Bench to bring their minds out of the clouds and deal with the actual hard facts of the situation. We invite the House to take that attitude now.

What are the facts, to begin with? First, I will give one or two facts that are in my own possession. I am an agent for the Lancashire Miners' Federation, as well as the Member for the Ince Division. The largest colliery and iron and steel producing company in that county owns the collieries in connection with which I act as agent for the men. It has been one of the best administered companies within my knowledge. The relations of the men with the employers have been absolutely of the best. Today, in consequence of the decision of the Government, this great company, employing 7,000 hands, with the fortunes of tens of thousands of people depending upon it, has taken away, as from yesterday, the previous fortnightly conditions of service which have existed for many years. Today the men are on daily contracts, and within a fortnight it is highly probable that those 7,000 men will be out of employment. One can imagine what misery will result. That will be multiplied by 50, by 100, in consequence of the action taken by the Government. Tens of thousands—I think well on towards 100,000—are out of employment in the south-western part of this kingdom. In South Wales alone there are tens and scores of thousands out of employment. That fact alone ought to compel us to hesitate. During the quarter ending on the 31st December, there were only about three districts in the whole country able to pay their way, while for the month ending on the 31st January only one small part of the whole mining area was able to pay its way. That means that there must, if the intentions of the Government are carried out, either be a very substantial increase in the selling price of coal, or a very large reduction in wages, or a continuance of the subsidy paid by the State. Let us take the second alternative.

Will the House believe that the vast majority of people in the mines—the adult workers—have not received advances equal to the increase in the cost of living? Will the House believe that as a matter of fact we are a very great deal below it? Forty per cent. of the workers in the mines are adult workers 21 years of age and over. Whatever district you take, with the possible exception of South Wales—as to which I cannot speak with the intimate knowledge which I possess of other areas—40 per cent. of the workers have received no advance in respect of the increase in the cost of living. There is nothing that receives such ready cheers as talk about the great wages earned by the coal miner and the necessity of reducing them. There are so many who think that the coal miner is the most highly-paid fellow on earth; that he is receiving a wage out of proportion to his services; that he is the aristocrat of labour, and that what we have to do is to crop him. It can be proved beyond any doubt that the adult workers in the mines have not received anything equal to the cost of living. The Lancashire miner, when paid at the abnormal rate—that is to say, when he is working under conditions which would prevent him from earning a proper wage upon the price list—is paid 11s. a day, plus the 3s. War wage, the 2s. Sankey award, and the 2s. of March, 1920. That is a total of 18s. a day. His average working time, if he puts in every day that he possibly can, will be five days a week. Repair work is necessary, and all kinds of things happen which I need not enumerate. Taking the constant average of working time in the mines, the best man is only able to put in five days a week. Multiply the 18s. by 5 makes it £4 10s. [An HON. MEMBER: "Minimum."] It is not the minimum wage at all. There is a much less rate than that. The minimum wage is practically 1s. 6d. per day less than that, and at least two-fifths of the men are receiving the minimum. I am speaking of the abnormal wage, where a man is admittedly working under difficulties, where he is admittedly a capable workman, and admittedly unable, because of the conditions in the working place, to earn the proper wage upon the price-list rates. That man is earning to-day in Lancashire—and Lancashire does not play second fiddle to any other county in these matters—18s. a day. He goes home, therefore, at the end of the week with £4 10s.

Admittedly the cost of living has gone up at the present time by 151 per cent. as compared with pre-War; that is to say, the figures to-day are as 251 to 100, or, roughly speaking, 5 to 2. Multiply your 90s. by 2 and divide by 5, and it is equal to 36s. pre-War. That is the man who is so very highly paid, and whose high wages ought to be reduced in order to bring prosperity to the trade. People who talk like that do not know what they are talking about. I repeat that that is the abnormal rate; that is the experienced collier in Lancashire. I remember that, in 1915, 300,000 colliers rushed to the Colours—more than a fourth of the whole mining population. I remember, too, that it was thought, and, in fact, known, that more coal ought to be produced. A great meeting was held in the Opera House in Kingsway, and at that meeting our present Prime Minister and the Home Secretary of that time made a great appeal to us. They said that coal was just as necessary as munitions, that when we were getting coal we were really firing bullets into the Germans. They said that when we were getting coal we were feeding the Army and were clothing the Army; there was no commodity of any kind into which coal did not enter as an essential factor. Is not that as true to-day? The magnificent eloquence of those two gentlemen—the speech of one of them, the Home Secretary of that time, Sir John Simon, I have never heard equalled in my life—thrilled us all, and everyone was agreed that we would do our very best to get our people to produce in as great a degree as possible that factor which entered into the composition of every commodity that the mind of man could conceive. Now we are told: "The coal miners, surely, cannot ask for a subsidy." They have subsidised every other industry in the State. The right hon. Gentleman himself admits that the people have been getting cheaper coal owing to the fact of the industry being controlled; that is to say, all other industries, every one of them dependent upon coal, has been subsidised. I wish that I possessed anything like the eloquence of the Prime Minister. I wish that even now I could reproduce his speech, because he described, in infinitely more forcible language than I am capable of, how coal lay at the foundation and was the essence of all commodities. That was not merely eloquence; it was true. We may, at some later and more highly developed stage of civilisation, be able to do without coal. I hope we may, because it is the most infernal method of securing human happiness that has ever been invented. Now, however, it does, as a fact, enter into every commodity of our industrial and commercial life, and the coal trade has subsidised every other industry.

5.0 P.M.

Passing from that, we say that you first of all brought us into this position. We said: "Yes, we will agree to control," and I myself, from that side of the Table, urged this House to agree to control. We said: "The nation's needs are such that this industry must be treated as an organic whole; it cannot be treated on the lines hitherto followed. You cannot allow private profit or differing and conflicting interests to impede the working of this great industry and retard the national interest. You must treat it as an organic whole." And we put the case from that side of the Table. We were right. It was right to treat it as an organic whole. If you treated it as an organic whole during the War, you should at least treat it as an organic whole so long as the aftermath and legacy of the War remains with you. We are now suffering from that fact. It is the aftermath. We are not responsible for this any more than any other individual, but so long as the effects of the War remain it surely ought to be a point of honour with the Government that, inasmuch as they were responsible to the industry and to the State for the conditions during the War, they will at least clear up before they lift control. That is the only honourable attitude to take up. If you do not, does anybody believe, can any miner believe, that the Government has not acted in the worst possible ill faith towards the miners?

We had a further meeting. We had a great meeting in the Central Hall at Westminster. That meeting was addressed by the Prime Minister of that day, the present right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith). Again promises were made and pledges were given. Again in 1918 I remember a magnificent meeting in the Free Trade Hall in Manchester. Every available inch of space was packed by the finest representatives of industry I have ever seen—employers, managers, colliery officials, trade union leaders—and they listened to appeals by the late Sir Guy Calthrop and the present Lord Ashfield appealing to the miners because, they said, "On your labours depends the security of the State." The reason I state this is because we must have an inner recognition of the fact that this is an essential key industry. Whether you nationalise it or not, you cannot get away from the fact that this industry is at the very bedrock of your national well-being. If you do in a moment of caprice, because it seems little more than that, decontrol the industry, you set men by the tens of thousands out of employment. That is exactly what will happen, hundreds of thousands will be out of employment the moment the 31st March arrives. To me it is a perfect abomination to seem to take up an attitude in any way militant or threatening. I am not threatening in the least; I am only pointing out to this House what will take place. At a moment when if ever it is necessary to conserve all the goodwill existing in the nation to bring us all together and recognise our mutual interdependence in a greater degree than ever before, it is now, at this fateful moment and after the speech we heard last night that the Government is deliberately, it seems to me, and of malice aforethought, throwing upon the streets of our villages and towns hundreds of thousands of those very people upon whom the well-being of the nation depends. I do not know what evil spirit prompts the Government to do this. It is said it does not lie in our mouths to say anything because we had nothing to do with the Mining Industry Act. The Government does not exist merely to throw slight slurs against the Labour Members.

I was only defending myself against the attack of breach of faith made by Labour Members.

It is not a breach of faith with the Labour Members, it is a breach of faith against the nation. This Act was brought forward in the interests of the nation, and a definite date, the 31st March, 1921, was incorporated. It is not with the Labour Members you made those terms. When a responsible Government and responsible Ministers bring forward a measure and incorporate a definite date in that Act of Parliament, that is supposed by everybody outside the House, as well as by those inside, whether they are opposed to the measure or support it, to be the operative date of the measure, and it is upon that that the good faith of business transactions and the vision of all engaged in the coal industry rests, for they look ahead and say, "There is an Act of Parliament, and there is a date in that Act, and within the particular period up to that date we have a right to look forward and make our arrangements." Surely we are entitled to charge you, on behalf of the nation and on behalf of those engaged in the mining industry, with breach of faith in this matter? Otherwise, if that is not true it is mere pretence to put dates in at all. Why not leave the date out altogether, and leave it to the goodwill of Ministers to take such action at any date as impulse may prompt them? That surely is the only alternative. If 31st August has no value, and if it is simply to be left to the whim of Ministers, it is rather a pity that you had not a little earlier vision, because when these negotiations were going on it was never suggested by anyone of any party that control would come to an end on 31st March.

I assure the hon. Gentleman does not want to misrepresent the Government. It was said perfectly plainly in a Debate in the House of Lords by the representative of the Government that 31st August was the maximum period. Therefore, it means control need not necessarily run to that period. Nor does it follow that all these powers will be exercised until that period arrives. They will not be exercised one moment longer than is necessary. Therefore, to say nobody knew this was going to happen is contrary to the history.

If that is not splitting hairs in an ignoble manner I have never known it. The point I submitted to the hon. Gentleman was this, that during the negotiations with the owners and with the representatives not a single word was dropped by anyone in authority that there was a likelihood of control ceasing at 31st March. Instead of referring to that point the hon. Gentleman refers me to someone in the House of Lords. The negotiations were not held there. The operative date in the Mining Industry Act of last year is 31st August, and everybody outside this House and everybody Inside was justified in saying: "The Government will not break its faith. That is a period to which we can look forward, and within that period we are entitled to make our arrangements." There have been many Commissions. There was the Sankey Commission set up by the existing Government. That Sankey Commission reported on two or three things. The Leader of the House said very explicitly: One of the findings was in favour of joint control of this great industry—not nationalisation at all, but joint control, it being stated by the Commission that for 40 or 50 years there had been a gradually increasing intelligence on the part of those engaged in the industry, that many of them were gifted with a high degree of attainment, and why should not the State make use of that ability? That was, in fact, one of the findings of the Commission. "Ah," said the Leader of the House, "We will promise that in the spirit and in the letter those findings shall be carried out." No more brutal disregard, no more callous disregard of that particular finding can be had than in the method of the Government in this Bill.

The whole industry is flung once more into the melting pot. All kinds of private interest will again be in conflict. A thousand varying sets of geological conditions in the mines, and tens of thousands of conditions of labour—all this is again to be thrown into the whole arena of the industrial world, and that is supposed to be carrying out in the spirit and in the letter the joint control of the industry recommended by the Sankey Commission. Another recommendation was made. Following upon a particular finding that, instead of miners' wages being relatively higher than those in other industries, they were as a fact lower, the Commission found that the miners had really fallen below the general social level of the workers, and they recommended that an addition should be made to the miners' wages as a permanent addition to raise their social standard of living. There is a dispute as to whether it was 1s. or 2s. The miners say 2s. was the Sankey wage and that 2s. was decided upon by the Government as a permanent addition to the wages to raise the miner to the social level of other workers. I am not at this moment concerned with whether it was 1s. or 2s., but that the necessity existed to raise the standard was admitted. Again the Leader of the House promised that in letter and in spirit the findings of the Commission would be carried out. "Ah," said the right hon. Gentleman, "one thing must be added. The miners' wages are too high. You can only really bring hope into the industry by reducing the wages of the miner."

Well, inasmuch as there are no profits, inasmuch as at this very moment with one small exception for 31st January, every area in the whole mining kingdom has lost money by shillings a ton, it would pass the wit even of the hon. Gentleman himself to say where the necessary profits are to come from. There is not two out of 20 colliery companies able to make any profit at all. We believe that the Government have not recognised these hard facts. We believe that you are not recognising the enormous social difficulty that is looming in the near future; that you are not recognising the vast mass of unemployed men and women who will be walking the streets and haunting the minds of every man in this House, and that you are not recognising the awful immensity of the social evil that is going to overtake us by forcing forward this measure. We recognise it. We have to live with the people. We are not only Members of this House, responsible with every other Member for the welfare of the State, but we realise that this is one of the most awful problems in its gravity that any one of us have ever seen. There is not one colliery out of five that can live. Lancashire collieries will almost all close down. I appeal to the Government to give us a little breathing space, and to let us see the goodwill there is in the mining industry. The right hon. Gentleman is perfectly correct there. I have had 40 years of trade unionism connected with the miners and I have never known a better spirit than has existed during the last 10 years. There has been a spirit of goodwill and of conciliation trying to bridge over the difficulties which are inevitable. When the employers have forfeited their profits, when they have paid a heavier tax out of their profits than any other men in the Kingdom, when the miners themselves have agreed to the limitation of prices, and when year after year they hewed coal and helped to secure the safety of the State, surely they are entitled to a little better gratitude than is being exhibited by a Bill such as this.

When the miners come upon the streets, as they inevitably must, what will the Government do? Hungry men, it is said, are angry men. There will be half a million of men out of work at once. If I had eloquence sufficient, or if I really could in searching words bring home to my hon. Friends in this House the terrible gravity that is confronting us in connection with this problem, I would thankfully sit down in two seconds. When you have this vast mass of unemployed people, and when in your great town and country villages this vast mass of people begin to move, what then? The miners are as law-abiding a people as there are in the country, and as decent a people as a body that this nation contains. When hunger gnaws, not merely at the vitals of the men, but at the little children—when there is no money because the mining community is a self-contained one, and there is hardly anything else that the miners can do—I do beseech the House not to push us into an awful maelstrom that may produce consequences which every one of us would deplore. Do give us a little time. Take your Bill back. Ask the mining Members to come to your assistance. Do not sit too tightly upon the privileges of the Front Bench. Ask the employers and the miners' leaders, Members of this House, and the miners' agents, to come together. In time of war you did it; you set aside the small petty pretensions and met us face to face, and we worked together. Why cannot that be done again? Then you would have not merely a vast reservoir of goodwill, but you would have a vast reservoir of the best sense and intelligence and businesslike experience that the mining industry can afford. Why do this thing in a small back room in a seventh-rate hotel? To deal with this great industry as if it were the fortune of a Minister's caprice is not an honourable, a decent, a grateful or a statesmanlike way to handle this vast problem with all its awful possibilities. I do implore the Government to take this Bill back and to bring together those people of whom I have spoken. Every-one of us desire the welfare of the State. Everyone desires to avert the horrible calamity which is sure to take place if we proceed with this Bill. To prevent that calamity, go back and call to your assistance all those upon whose goodwill, common-sense and businesslike experience you can securely count. If you do that, I am sure there is hope for the industry, and it is only by securing hope for the mining industry that there can be any real hope for the nation.

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Mines said that he thought everybody was in favour of decontrol. The output of coal for the last recorded week, 19th February, was at the rate of 214,000,000 tons per annum as compared with the 1913 figure of 287,000,000 tons, which means a reduction of 25 per cent. This decrease was partly due to trade conditions in this country, but largely to the flooding of our foreign markets by American coal, brought about by the continued uncertainty due to Government control. Wages have been driven up and output has been reduced until the wage cost of 6s 10d. per ton of coal sold in 1913 has been increased to 30s. 10d. per ton sold in January, 1921, which means an advance of 351 per cent. in the wages cost per ton of coal sold. The total cost of coal sold in January was about 40s. per ton, without including anything for profit, whereas in Germany, France and Belgium the corresponding figure is about 18s. per ton, and in the United States about 3$, which, at the present rate of exchange, is roughly 15s. 6d. per ton. Hon. Members can realise the sort of competition which the coal of this country is up against in the world. The net result is that the working of the coal industry in this country during January showed a loss of £5,000,000 for the month. The Coal Emergency Act provided for the establishment of a pool and the payment of pre-War standards of profit. It also provided that if the pool were depleted to such an amount as would not pay nine-tenths of the standard profit by any Direction or Order of the Government issued after 1st January, 1920, the nine-tenths of the profits would be guaranteed, or the deficiency in the pool of the amount which is necessary to make up the nine-tenths would be provided by the Government. The Emergency Act was to expire in August, 1920, but its operation was extended until the 31st August, 1921, unless it should be earlier determined by an Order of the Board of Trade under Section 3 (2) of the Mining Industry Act. It was provided in that Section that any Order which would terminate the Emergency Act before August, 1921, should be framed on principles similar to those contained in the Emergency Act. The Act said:

My right hon. Friend said that he thought any other industry would gladly exchange with the coal trade, because the coal trade have received profits, or would receive profits during this current three months. I would remind him that the coal trade is the only trade in the country that was shorn of practically all excess profits which were enjoyed to such a large extent by every other industry. I am sorry to say that I can endorse every word which the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. Walsh) said about losses in the collieries. Speaking for South Wales coalfield, which I know better than any other district, I know that the collieries are losing heavily. Every colliery in South Wales is losing money. Some are losing enormous amounts. One colliery I know of, one of the biggest, lost £50,000 in January. I do not say they are losing at that rate, but they are all losing heavily. It is believed that the money in the pool in December was sufficient to pay the full standards up to that date, and also to give the owners their 10 per cent. surplus as provided for in the Emergency Act. The coalowners, however, are willing to accept the payments of their standards in full to the end of December. They also unwillingly agree to accept the payment of the nine-tenths of the standards from the 1st January, 1921, up to the end of March. If there should be sufficient in the pool to pay the full amount of the standard for the three months, of course they will be paid, but the owners would not ask for any part of the 10 per cent. of any excess there might be and that would go to the Government. The coal-owners have agreed to accept the Bill if it is in the form which I have indicated, but I think on every ground they are entitled to more consideration than they have been given, and they accept this arrangement solely on the ground of the present embarrassed state of the national finances.

I claim the indulgence of the House in addressing it for the first time. Though I am, I must admit, slightly interested in the coal trade myself, I wish to make a few remarks in the interests of the consumer and the taxpayer. The hon. Gentleman who moved that the Bill be read this day six months seemed to have no alternative but the continuance of a subsidy by the State. It is impossible to see any way in which the control can be continued without a sub- sidy by the State, and though the general public may be wrong, they certainly have the impression that coalowners on the whole are not among the poorest of men, and that neither are miners among the poorest of the working classes. And in the present state of unemployment and distress, high taxation and great suffering among the middle class, I do not believe that the taxpayers would countenance the continuance of the control if it meant a subsidy by the taxpayer. I remember in 1915 hearing reports and rumours of what was going on at the meetings of the coalowners when the first draft of the coal agreement was put before them, and they met to consider it. They almost seemed to believe at that time that the State had put its first finger on the industry, that the whole hand would soon go upon it, and that the industry would finally pass out of the hands of private enterprise into the hands of the State. But I do not think they realised at that time how cold and damp the hand of the State is.

However much we have suffered through control, though it was essential at the time in the interest of the country, we have gained in this fact that we have learned that this great industry cannot be governed by State control, and this has been to all thinking people the deathblow to the possibility of this industry being nationalised. It has shown the people of the country that the trade which was handed over to control in a prosperous condition, efficiently handled and making profits, is now to be handed back almost in a bankrupt condition. I do not for a moment suggest that the blame falls on the Coal Controller; I think that it falls upon the general principle that Government, municipal or State control does not carry with it the efficiency of private enterprise. Another thing is that it is far more susceptible to political pressure than private enterprise can possibly be. I cannot believe that the continuance of control with the continuance of a subsidy would be a remedy for unemployment in the coal trade. I believe that unemployment can be got rid of far more quickly by mutual agreement between the coalowner and the coalminer. The two are so highly organised that between now and the 31st March, given goodwill on both sides, I believe that an agreement can be come to satisfactory to both sides. If that is so, it will be very satisfactory to the country as a whole.

I think that the present high price of coal is one of the things that industry generally is suffering from more than anything else. Some of my friends in the steel trade tell me that the high price of coal day by day is causing the damping down of blast furnaces and other great industries in the North. The high price of coal has something to do with the rates of exchange working so badly against our industry on the Continent, because the export of coal has been stopped. The index figures of the prices, of commodities given in "The Times" show that the prices of raw materials have been dropping to a great extent, far more than the consumer has yet realised in the retail prices, but the price of coal has not shown any sign of dropping. Therefore, a drop in the price of coal, even if it does mean, as it probably must mean, a reduction in wages, will have the general effect of decreasing the cost of living, and that would decrease the cost of living to the coalminer as well as to everyone else. The hon. Member (Mr. Walsh) in speaking of the 18s. a day, was taking the case of one extreme, whereas other people, if they wished, could take the case of the other extreme. You have cases where the Income Tax has been assessed on such figures as £700 a year wages, and there were cases before me a short time ago of some boys charged with playing pitch and toss who looked as if they ought to be at school, and who said when questioned that their wages came to about 40s. a week.

The hon. Gentleman spoke about hard facts. The hard fact in this case is the hard economic fact that more cannot be taken out of an industry either in profit or wages than the industry can bear. Therefore, in any adjustment that is made, both wages and profits can only be such as the industry can bear, and when the coalowner and the miner meet together again to see what can be got out of the trade—and both sides are justified in trying to see how much they can get out of it for themselves—then the laws of economic facts must govern the position and will bring back this trade, which at present is in chaos, to something like order and prosperity once more.

I support the Amendment of my hon. Friend. This is not the first time we pleaded for control to be continued. We have done that on many occasions when hon. Members opposite pleaded for decontrol. We were told about the laws of supply and demand, and the principles of economics, and so on, which would bring everything down, but everything went up by leaps and bounds as soon as control was taken off. My hon. Friend has asked the Government to withdraw this Bill. If there is to be any morality or any respect for an agreement in this matter the Government will withdraw the Bill. Two things have already taken place in connection with this decontrol proposal. Coal has already gone up in some districts. I believe that in South Wales it has gone up 11s. 6d. a ton, and in Northumberland by 5s. But a much more serious thing than that has happened, and that is serious enough. Our markets are closed against us, and we want to try to open them as quickly as possible. In November last, when we were negotiating with the Government, it was decided that a new wages agreement was to be presented by 31st March. These negotiations have been going on. I thought in the beginning that they were going on fairly favourably, but they were hindered by the President of the Board of Trade wanting to meet them on this point of decontrol, and he came into the negotiations at a time when, if he had left them alone, there might have been some sort of agreement or at least the basis of an agreement arranged. However, it has had this effect that, when the coalowners knew that decontrol was to be proposed from the 31st March, they then put forward new proposals which had not been heard of or thought of before, and proposals which, it is right to say, promptly ended the negotiations.

This is a very serious matter indeed, and we consider that these negotiations, and the negotiators ought to have been treated with fair play, without having this question of decontrol brought in at the moment. However, the Government think that this ought to take place on the 31st of this month. Decontrol is to the miners a very serious matter. It means that all the advances we have from whatever sources they were given will disappear. I want to show that these advances were given owing to the cost of living, and that an agreement was entered into which ought to be respected by the Government, but which, if this is taken out, will not be respected by the Government. In 1917 there was an advance of 1s. 6d. per day given to the men, and 9d. per day given to the boys. It was given because of the cost of living at that time which I think had gone up 80 per cent. above pre-War prices. Later again a second advance of equal amount was given under the same conditions because the cost of living had gone up by this time to 115 per cent. An agreement was entered into by Sir Guy Calthrop, who was Coal Controller at that time, and Messrs. Smillie and Ashton, and was dated the 28th November, 1917. and not mine. It seems now that the Government plan is to reduce wages in order to get cheap coal. They know that cheap coal is necessary. The markets of the export districts are gone, and it will take some time and considerable trouble to get them back. They see that cheap coal is necessary to get a footing in our lost markets once again. Suppose the whole of the war wages are taken away? It would mean that the purchasing power of at least one-tenth of the population of this country would be that much less. That in itself would create unemployment. Normally, coal is dearer when sold inland than when sold f.o.b. But for the past five years the figures which I have here prove that the opposite has been the fact. In 1917 the export price went up by 7s. 4d. over and above inland coal. In 1918 the difference was 6s. 5d.; in 1919 it was 19s. 11d.; and in 1920 it was 46s. 6d. The extra prices obtained for export coal were equal to £758,000,000 and some odd thousands.

Reference has been made to subsidising and we have heard of it before. The argument was used at one time that the coal trade was being subsidised. That was altogether wrong, and the word "subsidy" ought never to have been used. The so-called subsidy was money paid to keep the poorer collieries going out of the pool created by the coal industry itself. It was never subsidised from the national Exchequer in the way that people would believe when the word subsidy is used. I am not sure that it would be such a very serious matter, after all, if the industry was subsidised for a time. The coal industry has subsidised every industry in this country for years past, as I think I have proved by the figures of inland coal prices. Every trade outside the mining industry has benefited by having coal that was cheaper than the world price. If the industry was subsidised until we got into working order again and recaptured our markets, and until we were in the same position as when Government control was put on, it would not be a very serious measure. I am not sure it would not be the wisest policy, unless the intention is to take from the workers their wages. Then again, the Admiralty had coal at 35s. per ton less than the world price for years. They were subsidised by the coal industry. I do not think that hon. Members need look with so much fear at the idea of a subsidy if they will bear in mind what the coal trade has done for this country and the Allies in years past.

Our export trade has been almost entirely destroyed. Our coal was commandeered for this country and for the Allies during the War, and our markets, of course, went in consequence. I am not sure that the reparation proposals are not beating us. There are to-day going to France large quantities of coal which previously we were supplying. It is all very well to make the Germans pay, but if we are to make them pay at the expense of the employment of our own countrymen and are to produce bad trade in this country, it does not seem to be a very sensible proposal. There are the Italian contracts. In Monmouthshire, at one time, the whole of the best veins that were worked were worked for Italy. The Italian State railways provided one of the great contracts that that county secured. Is it not likely that, with the French mines getting into working order again, and also large quantities of coal coming from Germany, that they will be in a favourable position to compete for the Italian contract, and thus secure the very trade which we have had for years? I blame the Government as responsible for the loss of these markets. They are under an obligation to the miners of this country and should at least retain control until the industry is put on its feet once more. If the deliberations and the negotiations had been allowed to go on, they might have been successful. Then, up to the 31st August next, when the control was to have ceased, there would have been time for the owners to look out for new markets and for them to try to restore the old markets, and by that means we might have got trade back again.

The Government have chosen rather to produce this Bill. They have produced it at the worst possible time. Some like decontrol and some do not, but I think everyone is agreed that a worse time could not have been found for producing this Bill. In South Wales we have from 40,000 to 50,000 unemployed miners, and the output from that area in January was down 20 per cent. Vast numbers of men are working short time. In England, on the other hand, the output in some districts went up in January. That proves that the Government are forgetting their obligations to the export industry, and are purchasing merely where they can get the cheapest coal. The Government themselves are large purchasers of coal. Apart from the Admiralty, the War Office and the Office of Works are buyers. We believe this Bill ought to be withdrawn, and that every, opportunity ought to be given to both sides to negotiate a new agreement. Decontrol ought not to take place until that agreement is completed and the industry is once more on its feet. If the Bill is not withdrawn I hope it will be defeated, so that negotiators for the permanent new agreement shall at least not be hampered.

I do not propose to oppose the Second Reading of this Bill. There are certain things in it which ought to be improved in Committee. I was rather amused when my right hon. Friend who moved the Second Beading gave as a reason for bringing in the Bill that the Government had only waited until such time as the inland price of coal approximated to the export price in order to do away with control. He really must think us rather simple. What we have seen is this: Control goes on quite merrily so long as the trade makes money. Directly it begins to lose money the Government seek to end control as soon as they can. Because we are now losing £5,000,000 a month decontrol is to take place on 31st March instead of on 31st August, thereby saving the Government £5,000,000 a month, or £20,000,000 in all. I want to ask my right hon. Friend a question about one of the Clauses in the Bill. I want a statement from him which will make quite clear to those who are to vote for or against this Bill what Subsection (4) of Clause 1 means. The Subsection says:

"In relation to the second pooling period, coal levy and coal award shall be calculated with reference to nine-tenths of the standard instead of with reference to the standard as if in paragraph ( a ) of Sub-section (1) of Section two of the said Act for the words 'the standard' wherever they occur in that paragraph there were substituted the words 'nine-tenths of the standard.'"

What I wish to know is, are the owners guaranteed nine-tenths of their profits from 1st January to 31st March?

That provision is merely one of accounting. Previously we used to advance up to the full pre-War standard, but as there is no chance of that being reached in this quarter, it would merely mean that we advanced money which would have to be repaid later on. Therefore we advance up to nine-tenths only.

6.0 P.M.

I am quite satisfied with that explanation, and I am sure that the coal traders in general will be very glad to hear those words, because many people have asked what this Sub-section meant, and were afraid that it was some way out of the Government paying even the nine-tenths which the owners were guaranteed under the Coal Mines Emergency Act. I do not mind decontrol so much, although I agree with my hon. Friend opposite that it is a breach of promise to the owners and the men. I do not mind it so much myself, but I do mind this, that when we have the prospect in front of us that after 1st April the trade is going to lose £5,000,000 per month, we have got to think how we are going to carry on with that loss with no Government behind us and how we are going to put it on a paying basis. We know we cannot get the export trade. That has been lost, whether by the action of the Government or of the exporters, who put too high a price on and so lost their market, I do not know. It looks to me as if it were a bit of both, that if the coal mineowners of South Wales had not been quite so greedy about getting a great deal of money out of France for coal, and if the Coal Controller had not encouraged them in order to raise his pool, I do not think the Americans would have stepped in and captured this trade. There is also some fault on the heads of the miners themselves.

You had to do with the strike, and the strike stopped our coal going to France. What I do object to about this business is that when we have got to consider how we are going to carry on the industry, either the owners have got to lose the £5,000,000 a month, or they have got to raise the price of coal, or else the wages have got to come down. That is quite clear. You can rule out No. 1, because the owners cannot find the money to carry on the trade at £5,000,000 a month loss for very long. It means that all the pits would close down, and none of us want that. None of us either want to raise the price of coal, because anybody who has anything to do with any other business besides coal, as for instance the iron and steel industry, is perfectly aware that the slump in that trade at present is due to a large extent to the fact that you cannot get a big output at a paying price by comparison with the same sort of thing which can be imported into this country from Lorraine, Germany, and Belgium. The difference between the price that is being charged now for delivery in the centre of England, in Staffordshire, of German and Belgian pig iron, and the rock bottom cost of production of the same article here is about £4 a ton. It is enormous, and one of the reasons why the price of pig iron is so high in the Midlands is that it takes from 25 to 30 cwts. of coke to produce every ton of pig iron. The price of slack as invoiced under the control for coke ovens is 29s. 8d., and slack for other purposes is being sold at any price all over the country. I put it to the House that if the price of slack for coke ovens is reduced to a proper level, say, about 7s. 6d., the price of coke would come down from 55s., as it is to-day, to something like 38s., and if you take £2 off the price of coke per ton, you will see how easily it would reduce the cost of making pig iron, and we should then be somewhere near, within reasonable distance of, being able to compete with the foreign pig iron that is being imported into this country at the present time.

How are we going to reduce the price of coke? I am using this illustration in order to argue that it is impossible for us to put up the price of coal, because we have already smothered all industry, and therefore it is necessary to bring it down. It is unthinkable that we as an industry should put up the price of coal. Then the third alternative only remains if the industry is going to be carried on, and that is that the cost of production must come down, and as 80 per cent. of the cost of production is wages, wages must come down. The Government put up the wages. My hon. Friend opposite who has just sat down read out an agreement made between Mr. Smillie, Mr. Hodges, and Sir Guy Calthrop, and it is plain that the owners had nothing whatever to do with the rise in wages. We had no voice in it, and it was a War measure entirely. What I complain of is this, that the Government when they find themselves in this mess, decontrol as from the 31st March, but they do not take off the wages which they themselves put on. They leave the onus of taking off those wages on the owners, and they make it very difficult thereby for the owners and the miners to come to a friendly agreement. The very worst chance of getting a friendly agreement is that the owners should have to begin, in order to live, to reduce the wages. Therefore, I have a great quarrel with the Government on that point, and if they had any courage or backbone, before they decontrolled the industry they should have taken off all the flat rates which they had put on and allowed the owners to make their own arrangements with the men in regard to wages. That would have been only fair. My hon. Friend the Member for Ince (Mr. Walsh) talked about 6,000 men in the iron and steel trade being out of employment, and colliers as well, and he had a grievance against the owners because they had given the miners 14 days' notice to come to a day-by-day agreement.

I am not complaining against the owners at all. I am only pointing out the inevitable effect of the action of the Government, that the company has been compelled to do that.

My hon. Friend was rather complaining that the owners had given fourteen days' notice, but they were forced to do it as a legal process. When you give notice of terminating any agreement about wages, you give fourteen days' notice, and after that you go on day by day until a fresh agreement takes place in regard to wages. After the 31st March we have got to make some agreement between ourselves and the men as to how the wages shall be regulated. My right hon. Friend has said that some measure of agreement at the present time has been arrived at between the contracting parties, that is to say, that they have agreed on the principles that the wages must be governed by the ability of the trade to pay, that there shall be a minimum wage below which no man shall be paid, and that in proportion to this minimum wage there shall be a minimum interest on capital for the owners. These three things are agreed in principle by the masters and the men, and the only thing that remains between us is to settle the details, but there we come to a very big hiatus, in that my hon. Friends opposite want to have all this settled on a national basis, and we say it can only be done by districts. I welcome decontrol at this moment because I think it will bring both sides to the realities of the position before them, in that it will make the owners know that after the 1st April the coal trade will be losing £5,000,000 a month unless something is done, and in that it will also make the men understand that after the 1st April nine-tenths of the collieries will close down unless either the wages come down or the prices go up. Why I welcome it, then, is that it will give a spur to those gentlemen on both sides who are negotiating on this subject and cause them to make up their minds and come to an agreement, which will be good not only for the coal industry but for the the country as a whole.

I would like to make reference to the quotation that the right hon. Gentleman made in moving, the Second Reading of the Bill from a speech which I delivered on unemployment, as proving that I at any rate am in favour of decontrol. This is the passage that he quoted: I went on to point out the urgent necessity of the Government considering the possibility of an agreement being entered into in the mining industry, and I added:

We are opposed to this Bill because we are convinced that if it is carried the whole industry will inevitably degenerate into a state of chaos. I sincerely believe, every member of our Federation believes, every member of this party believes, that if this Bill passes this House, and is placed on the Statute Book, then by the end of this month 1,200,000 persons employed in the mining industry will be out of employment. We are convinced of it. We have absolutely no doubt about that, and that is one of the things which is causing us a very considerable amount of perturbation. There is no question of a strike or lock-out at all; it is simply a matter of necessity. The hon. Baronet the Member for St. Ives (Sir C. Cory), speaking on behalf of the employers, said they are prepared to accept this Bill. I think the hon. Baronet is head of the firm known as Cory Brothers, a big colliery company in South Wales, and I think he has a colliery in Tydraw, where there are about 800 men employed who are under notice. I am told that at Pentre he has another colliery with 700 men under notice, one at Tynybedw with 750 men under notice; another at Gelli House colliery with 450 men under notice; at Gelli Steam Colliery, 70 men; at Penllwyngwent, 200 men, and at Wyndham, 1,000 men. I am told that at all these collieries belonging to the company of which he is head, they are working out notice.

I should like to know why they are being given notice—simply, for no other reason, than that this Bill is before the House, because the Government have determined on this policy of decontrol. The owners have their finances guaranteed at the end of the month. They are now making the necessary preparations to put their workmen on the road at the end of the month, and they come down to the House, and, speaking in the name of the coalowners, they say, "We are going to be generous and give up one-tenth surplus, to which we are entitled up to the end of December, and accept this Bill, and are sacking the lot and putting the men on the road. We are going to accept this Bill and back the Government in it." What the hon. Baronet is doing, all the coalowners are doing. I was told to-day that Sir Thomas Ratcliffe Ellis on Monday asked the Lancashire Miners' Executive if they were prepared to accept a collective notice of 14 days for the whole of the Lancashire coalfields. The workmen's representatives declined, and the owners said, "Very well, we will put in individual notices." I understand the same thing is being done in the other coalfields. They are not waiting for the end of the month in Wales. We have something between 40,000 and 50,000 unemployed there already, and when the full effect of this Bill is brought to bear on the industry, you will have 1,200,000 persons unemployed. When you are talking about the cost of control, it is as well that the House should take into consideration the cost of unemployment. £1,200,000 a week unemployment pay is certainly a trifle to be taken into account in connection with the decontrol of this industry. It has been stated by the right hon. Gentleman who proposed the Second Beading that the industry was losing £5,000,000 a month.

He said that it would from the 31st March to the end of August. For the life of me, I cannot understand upon what data he bases that statement. It is true that the figures for January, which are contained in the Statistical Summary issued by the Mines Department, gives a loss on that month of £4,889,000. But that was at a time when the wages were 3s. 6d. a day higher than they are to-day, and Mr. Finlay Gibson, the Secretary of the Coalowners' Association, writing to the Press recently said that the War wage, the Sankey wage, the 2s. given last March, and the 3s. 6d., which is just river 10s. a day, added 20s. to the cost of coal; in other words, that the shilling a day is practically 2s. a ton. We have 2s. a day reduction. That ought to amount to 7s. reduction in the cost, and yet the total loss on the January month is 5s. 8d. a ton. The 3s. 6d. a day will wipe that out to start with. Those are the latest figures. We have never had a monthly statement before, and this is quite the most up-to-date information which it is possible for the Ministry of Mines to supply. I say, on the basis of that statement, the loss which is shown is already wiped out by the reduction of wages which has taken place. The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head and expresses dissent. This statement, which can be examined by every Member of the House, says that the loss on the month was 5s. 8d. per ton. Does the President of the Board of Trade deny that a reduction of 3s. 6d. per day would wipe out 5s. 8d. a ton? If he does, all I can say is that those who know the figures will not deny it, so that I do not quite see where the Estimate of £5,000,000 reduction comes from. I should like to know, because as far as I am able to ascertain, there is no sort of basis upon which to form such an estimate. I would like just to look at this position and trace its development up to the present. Coal control originally was not undertaken at the request of the miners—let that be clearly understood.

I know. It was simply because the coalowners and the miners could not agree amongst themselves. They were so completely organised on both sides that they could stagnate the industries of the nation, and in a time of national crisis, when we had got at loggerheads with each other, the Government said that, in the nation's interest, this great industry must be taken out of the hands of both, and State control must be imposed upon them, whether they like it or not. That was done in the nation's interest. It was done in November, 1916, so far as South Wales was concerned, and February, 1917, so far as the rest of the United Kingdom was concerned. In July, I think, of 1917, the coalowners entered into an agreement with the Government, known as the Coal Mines Control Agreement, and that agreement was subsequently endorsed by an Act of Parliament. Under the terms of that Act the agreement was to run during the War, and for six months after. But in 1920 the Government came down to the House with the Coal Emergency Bill, by the provisions of which they repealed the old agreement, embodied most of its provisions in a modified form in the Coal Emergency Act, and said that was to come to an end on the 31st August, 1920. By the time we had got to the 16th August, 1920, the Government had made up their mind that they could not decontrol at that moment, and that they must extend the provisions of that Act, and they then proposed another Bill continuing the operation of the measure to the 31st August, 1921. So that since 1916 we have had no sort of relationship between ourselves and the owners so far as the wage question is concerned, or the general conditions of employment in the mining industry, and during that period, as has already been explained to the House, the Government have made certain decisions.

I would like again to refer to the 3s. War wage which was conceded to the workmen by the Government in 1917. That was entirely on account of the increase in the cost of living. Under our wage agreement wages were regulated by the selling price of coal, but the Government had limited the selling price of coal. They had limited the price of exports. They had insisted on coalowners supplying our Allies at a given figure. They had knocked the bottom out of our wage agreement, with the result that, as the cost of living went up, our wage agreement became inoperative, because wages were arbitrarily checked. We have had to go to the Government and state how the cost of living has gone up to such a point that we ought to have an advance in wages. At that time 80 per cent. was the figure representing the increase in the cost of living for 1914, and it was specifically and definitely provided in the arrangement that there was to be no reduction until the cost of living was below that figure. That is a document signed by the representatives of the Federation and the Government. Do the Government propose to carry out that bargain? Is that a pledge, and, if not, what is intended in relation to the War wage? Surely we are entitled to know something about it. We had a Commission which decided that we ought to have 2s. a day advance in wages, not on the ground of the increase in the cost of living, but because we were entitled to an advance to lift the standard of living. The very low standard of living among the miners was proved to be lower than that obtaining in other important industries, and we got that increase as the result of a Commission. When that was given I think the cost of living was about 120. I believe the cost now is about 150 above the pre-War cost. Are our wages to go down wholesale without the cost of living going down, when all these undertakings and conditions were conceded after a full and impartial inquiry by a tribunal? Are we to have no sort of guarantee of a continuance of these things?

When this Act is passed and decontrol is accomplished at the end of March, what is to be the position in the mining industry? Can anybody tell us? Every agreement entered into in the mining industry has been smashed to smithereens. The coalowners cannot say that we ought to accept a reduction of wages. I do not know of any agreement on which we can go and claim wages on this basis. The moment control is gone it seems the very basis of all the contracts in the mining industry has been undermined and we have nothing to rely upon. The right hon. Gentleman says that we are making progress with the negotiations and that there is good hope of a settlement being entered into. He said that an agreement had been reached on one point expressed in these words, "that wages must conform to the capacity of the industry to pay." That is a fair proposition. There is no other basis upon which an industry can be run. That, however, is not the basis upon which the owners ask us to agree. The January figures, which are the coalowners' own figures sent in to the Coal Controller, have been tabulated and published for the benefit of this House. The ability of the industry to pay has been exceeded to the extent of 5s. 8d. per ton as far as January is concerned, disregarding the profits of the owners. Is anybody prepared to say on behalf of the coalowners that they are prepared to enter into an agreement based upon the ability of the industry to pay, having regard to the fact that their losses are 5s. 8d. per ton on the industry? There is not a man in this House or out of it who would make such a statement. That is not what they are asking us to agree to. What they want us to agree to is that we will fix a wage agreement for a whole district on the ability of the most unremunerative concern in that district to pay wages. They are not going to get it, and that is where we are divided hopelessly as to the fundamental basis upon which to build a wage agreement.

I will go into these figures in order to illustrate how impossible it is for us to agree. It is not a matter of us not being prepared to agree. It is not a possible proposition, and if the coalowners are going to stand where they are on that point there is no hope of an agreement being entered into by the end of March. I do not see the ghost of a chance if the owners are going to stand on that intention. The Government have developed a unified system in the industry, and if that system is destroyed then the coalowners must reorganise the industry and unify it themselves. The Government have established a pool under State control. If that is to be destroyed then the coalowners must establish a pool themselves and administer it in such a form as will enable the workmen employed in the industry to have their wages based on the average ability of the industry to pay wages. When the coalowners are prepared to tell us that they accept that proposition, then there is some hope of a settlement, and there is no hope until that has taken place. I think it is practically impossible to get a settlement except on a national basis, and it is totally impossible to get one unless we get a pool.

In support of that contention I would like to illustrate the difficulties we have in arriving at an agreement. The March figures contained in the statistical returns show a loss of 5s. 8d. per ton for the month of January for the whole country. If we were making a national agreement covering the whole industry we should have to make provision for wiping out 5s. 8d. per ton. When, however, you go down to South Wales we have a deficit there of 14s. 6d. per ton, so that the moment we talk about the ability of the industry to pay it is no longer a question of 5s. 8d. per ton for the South Wales coalfield but 14s. 6d. Even if it were 14s. 6d. per ton you would require a pool in the Welsh coalfield to enable the industry to run in South Wales after providing for a reduction of 14s. 6d. per ton. Mr. Finlay Gibson dealt with these figures in the January Summary. That Summary is compiled from returns sent in by the colliery owners, and Mr. Gibson compiled the data and published it with an analysis, and I would like to put that before the House. While it is true that 14s. 6d. represents the loss in the month of January on the, Welsh coalfield, I know of one company which after making provision for excess profits and income tax had a net profit of £625,000 for last year. Mr. Gibson says that seventeen companies have a small profit, although over the whole coalfield there is a loss of 14s. 6d. per ton.

Let us analyse the coalfields as Mr. Gibson has done. In the case of 24 colliery companies the loss has been between 20s. and 30s. per ton. I want the House to realise what this means. Here are 17 colliery companies who make a profit on the present position and existing wages and prevailing conditions, but if you establish a pool in the Welsh coalfield and reduce the cost by 14s. 6d. per ton you have to reduce it over these 17 colliery companies as well, and those who are now getting a profit under existing conditions would get 14s. 6d. per ton more if you build a wage system on that average. If you did that, wiping out 14s. 6d. a ton loss, what is to become of the 24 collieries whose losses are 20s. to 30s. per ton? You must establish an agreement which reduces the cost 20s. or 30s. a ton, and you, must do it not only for these collieries but for those who are making a profit.

There are 20 collieries losing between 30s. to 40s. a ton, and so you must bring down your cost to that extent. There are nine collieries losing from 46s. to 60s. per ton, 12 collieries losing from 60s. to 95s. per ton, and five losing over 100s. per ton. Assuming we could have a settlement, you cannot have a district settlement without having a district coalfield pool. It is simply impossible. These figures show that the cost for the South Wales coalfield, that is, the total cost, is 54s. 8d. per ton. Mr. Gibson shows that in 40 of the collieries the cost ranges from 54s. 8d. to over 55s. and 65s. In 31 cases it ranges from 65s. to 100s., and in 12 instances the cost is over 100s. per ton. It must be clear to anyone who will give five minutes' thought to these figures how hopeless and absolutely impossible it is for an agreement to be entered into on the lines entered into by the coal-owners that we must have a wage built upon the ability of the lowest remunerative concern to pay wages. It cannot be done, and if the President of the Board of Trade or the Minister of Mines is dependent on what has been said in regard to this process hastening an agreement on a settlement, if that is what he is hoping for, then I say that it is not going to be realised. It is not going to be realised, and I hope nobody will be dependent on anything coming from action of that sort.

When and by whom was it said that it was to be based on the least remunerative mines?

I do not assert that that has been said in so many words. What has been said is that every concern must stand on its own, and any agreement must be such as to enable each concern to live as a separate entity.

That means the closing down of mines which are quite hopeless commercially.

That is exactly what it does mean. The miners are faced with one of three positions. Either we must accept wages on the basis of the least remunerative concern—

Royal Assent

Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.

The House went, and, having returned,

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to

Consolidated Fund (No. 1) Act, 1921.

Coal Mines (Decontrol) Bill

Question again proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

7.0 P.M.

I was saying when interrupted that the miners were faced with one of three alternatives. They have either to accept wage agreements based upon the ability of the poorest concern to pay wages—which is naturally an unthinkable proposition, or the second alternative is that we might ascertain the average ability of the industry and say that every concern which is unable to pay on that basis shall be closed down, the capital destroyed, and the men rendered unemployed. But even if you establish a wage system on the average ability, I say it is not fair to give such an agreement to those concerned who are making fabulous profits and to let them reap the benefit of that average agreement. The other alternative is that we shall pool the whole system under a scheme to be organised, developed, and administered by the coalowners themselves. I would like to give just one other figure on the wage question. Mr. Gibson, in the article to which I made reference just now, dealt with the wages paid in a number of collieries of which returns are included in the financial statement. He gives the figures of ten colliery companies and, assuming the receipts in each of these colliery companies is equal to the average realised price of coal, I have worked out what the position of those colliery companies is on the wages question alone. Anyone who will look at the figures for January will see that in that month, in the Welsh coalfields, 1s. 9d. per ton more in wages was actually paid than was re- ceived for the coal, to say nothing of the other costs of production. On wages alone there was a loss of 1s. 9d. per ton. Mr. Finlay Gibson gives the statistics for ten companies, as to their proceeds and the wages cost. Colliery A, he says, paid out during the month £131,400 in wages, and received for coal £118,200, paying in wages alone, more than they received for their coal, 4s. 7d. per ton. Taking the coalfield as a whole, getting a unified system, and basing a wage agreement on the ability of the industry in Wales alone to pay, the deficit is 1s. 9d. per ton. On colliery A's undertaking, the deficit on wages alone is 4s. 7d.; colliery B company paid out £75,440, and received for coal £53,445. They had a loss on wages alone of 16s. 6d. per ton. C colliery company paid out £76,970, and received for coal £39,060, paying in wages 39s. a ton more than they get for their coal. D company, £82,748 in wages, and £58,700 received for the coal; wages, 16s. 5d. a ton. I am giving these figures to show the difficulties with which we are confronted. We are anxious to get a settlement between ourselves and the owners, and if you take the industry as a whole, this wage question can be put right if it is spread over the whole coalfield by working out a deficit of 1s. 9d. per ton. You ought not, however, to take colliery company A alone, which is no inconsiderable concern, and pays £131,000 in wages in a month, and would require, to make the wages cost correspond with the proceeds, 4s. 7d. a ton. B colliery would require 16s. 6d.; C would require 39s. 6d., and D, 16s. 5d. Colliery company E, a very big concern, pays £185,380 a month; they receive for their coal, £160,680, a loss of 6s. 10d. on wages alone. F colliery, a small concern, payed £17,190 in wages, and received for their coal £4,840. Their wages cost was 104s. a ton in excess of the receipts.

I want to show that even if these men could work for no wages at all you could not keep these concerns going. You have enormous concerns here, some of them paying £130,000 and £185,000 a month in wages. These are great big colliery companies, very likely owning half a dozen or more collieries, and employing a very large number of men. They have costs which make it impossible for us to get a wage system under which they can live at all.

That is a very good policy to create unemployment, but we are are not going to make an agreement which will provide for a few privileged colliery owners getting fabulous profits on the one hand and a huge mass of unemployed on the other. There is no necessity for it. All you want is to utilise the proceeds of this industry in such a way as to give to the miners wages on the average ability of the industry to pay. If we can get an agreement, we can get a settlement and we can get get peace in the industry. If, however, wages are brought down, enabling these concerns to pay, or if wages are fixed which would be bound to drive these mines out of work, and the men out of work also, then these are proposals to which our federation is not prepared to agree. I sincerely hope the coalowners will not attempt to enforce them. If they do, and if the Government continue in this legislation, all I have to say is that we shall simply have the coalowners closing the concerns down. They will not be able to help themselves. They simply cannot go on working in the absence of an agreement with the industry in its present condition. We are decidedly anxious to get an agreement that will enable the industry to be worked and our men to be employed. We shall not get it by decontrolling at this moment.

I hope that the House and the President of the Board of Trade will take into consideration the vast disparity between the wages cost and other costs. It is not that the miners are receiving lower wages where the deficit is 1s. 9d. a ton than where the deficit is 39s. a ton. The wages rate is the same in both cases; it is simply the difference in the conditions under which the coal is produced that causes the wages cost to be so much higher in one case than another. These conditions are the production of the Government and of control, and are not merely something that has grown up under the wage arrangement we have entered into ourselves. They are the growth of the unifying wage system, the flat-rate system in the remunerative and unremunerative collieries together. This has made the establishment of a pool an absolute necessity. We have had the pool; we have had a unified industry, and we have had wages based on the average ability of the industry to pay. Now all that is to go by the board. I sincerely hope the Government will not allow this thing to pass, and so land us in the awful position in which we shall find ourselves at the end of this month.

I wish to emphasise what has been said about the mining industry having subsidised all the other industries in this country for years past. No other industry has contributed as much, both directly and indirectly, to the national Exchequer. It contributed indirectly by supplying every industry in the country with coal below the cost of production. As the Secretary of Mines stated this afternoon, in some cases the coal has been supplied at from 40s. to 60s. a ton below the price that could be realised for export, and certainly below the cost of production. The other industries have been getting this cheap coal, and a very large proportion of the profits that have been realised as a result has gone into the Exchequer in the form of excess profits. Although the mining industry has not paid any big sums directly, yet by subsidising all the other industries it has contributed very largely. For the next few months there is evidently going to be an adverse balance in the industry. I should be very much surprised if it is more than £5,000,000 a month; I do not see where it is to come from, and the figures that have been shown do not indicate that amount. There is a much bigger cost involved in unemployment than in continued control. Apart altogether from the money cost, it is not going to be a happy country if we have a million men idle in the mining, industry, with all the additional unemployment that that will involve. We shall have a state of things in this country to which none of us can look forward lightheartedly. This will be the result if the Bill is passed. I hope the President of the Board of Trade is getting into touch with both sides to see if it is not possible to discover a basis of agreement, so that it may be continued for a time to give a chance of effecting a settlement. If that is done, there will be hope for the future of the industry and the country, but if it is not, I cannot sea daylight in this situation.

My hon. Friend who preceded me dealt, as one would expect him to deal, with the situation purely and absolutely from the point of view of the Miners' Federation. I think there are other sections of the community who have a right to express an opinion as to how they will be affected by decontrol. As I understand my hon. Friend, he said that decontrol is going possibly to throw 1,250,000 men out of employment. Whether we have decontrol or not, on account of our total inability to sell coal abroad and of the ability of bur manufacturers in this country to pay for coal for manufacturing purposes at the price at which it is being produced to-day, the men are going to be out of employment anyhow. Not only that. The hon. Gentleman the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. Walsh) who moved that the Bill be read this day six months, and the Labour party, quite forgot to tell the House that the other sections of the Labour movement have been the biggest sufferers as a result of following the policy advocated by the Miners' Federation for the last four years. We are passing through a serious condition of unemployment. Speaking with a fair knowledge, not only of the coal industry, but of other businesses also, I say that this state of affairs has been brought about by the absolute impossibility of manufacturers in practically every line of industry in this country competing with foreign manufacturers owing to the high cost of coal. Every time that we have had to deal with matters connected with the Mines Department during the past four or five years, and the Labour party has gone to the country, and talked so frankly and freely about the necessity of nationalising the mines, about the standard of life of the miners, and the conditions under which they work, they have quite forgotten to point out that the engineering trade, the steel trade, and all the other affiliated trades are part and parcel of the Labour movement as represented by the Labour party in this House. They have forgotten to point out that they are suffering to-day, not through any action of the Government, but purely on account of the rapacity of the miners in demanding wages out of all reason and beyond the possibility of the industry to pay. We have to deal with this question exactly as it affects us. In Cardiff and district we have 30,000 people out of work—in Cardiff, Newport, Barry, and other places. Every one of these men who is out of work is more or less dependent on the coal industry for his living, It is useless for the Miners' Federation to go down to the City of Cardiff and these other places and talk about the wrongs of the miners, because they know full well there that all the trade that we did before has been driven away to other countries by the high costs, and we have no prospect, as things are today, of ever regaining the export trade which was and is the backbone of the commercial prosperity of South Wales. The hon. Member for Ogmore talks about collieries that are losing from 60s. to 90s. a ton. Of course they are losing it. In every argument which the Labour party put forward they forget that production is the main factor in cost. They never think of overhead charges, cost of production, and capital charges. If a colliery which is in the habit of producing 500 tons a day is only able, through lack of wagons or lack of sale, to produce 50 tons, naturally the cost for the 50 tons is considerably higher than the ordinary cost per ton. These economic factors are glossed over, and it is said that it is a matter of adjustment. My hon. Friend must know full well that we have thousands of wagons standing filled with coal in South Wales. Every siding from Swansea to Chepstow is full of wagons. There is no market for the coal. France will not buy it; Italy will not buy it—not because they do not want it, but because the price at which we are producing it, and at which we can sell it, is considerably in excess of the price at which they can purchase coal from Australia or China. I hate to have to admit that I have been delivering coal myself from Australia to Sweden at a cheaper rate than that at which coal can be produced in Souh Wales and carried there. Coal is going from Australia to Sweden, and coal is being offered to us from Australia for Mediterranean ports at considerably less than the c.i.f. price at which we can deliver it from South Wales. I admit that these contracts were made some time ago.

Another factor which militates against us to a considerable extent is that we can never guarantee continuity of delivery. We can never enter into a contract to deliver coal at any fixed time, no matter what our wishes may be in regard to taking risks. We never know, when we enter into a contract, whether we are going to be able to carry it out with certainty. People in other countries are demanding from us penalty clauses, and why not? In the old days we could guarantee our deliveries; now everything is dependent upon the strike clause. Every Member in this House knows that we live in daily fear, even when we have a normal degree of production and of sale, that we shall wake up and find ourselves faced with a strike, and have to face demurrage on the ships. Consequently, we find our orders going to other countries where they can guarantee, and are guaranteeing, delivery. Hon. Members above the Gangway talk about the terms of the Peace Treaty, and I am surprised that they have not said to-day that we are taking 2,000,000 tons of coal a month from Germany into France, and that that is the reason why we have lost the French market. It is nothing of the kind. The coal which is now going from Germany to France formerly went to Scandinavia and central European countries, who are crying out for our coal to-day, if they could only get it at a reasonable price. Instead of that, they are getting it from America. If American coal can be shipped to Mediterranean ports for consumption in Central Europe, or to Scandinavian ports, to take the place of the German coal which is now going to France, at 10s. or 15s. a ton less than the price at which we can ship it, we have every reason to expect the loss of the markets which we formerly held.

My hon. Friend spoke of 17 collieries producing coal at a profit. Why is that? My hon. Friend knows better than any Member in this House that they are what we term in South Wales Admiralty collieries, which in any circumstances and at almost any time can command a market for their coal. The coal of second-grade collieries is not wanted. If you can get the best class of coal at the same price as second, third or fourth grade, you take the best. The position to-day is that best Admiralty steam coal is being sold in South Wales at 57s. per ton, while, the cost of production is 54s. 8d. That is without adding a single penny—my hon. Friend did not mention this—for freightage, screening, capital charges, debenture interest, taxation, or any other charges. If you compare 57s. f.o.b. Cardiff with 54s. 8d. at pit head, it will be seen that there is a large loss to the colliery even on these transactions. My hon. Friend talked at great length about the position of the miners with regard to the non-acceptance of any proposition based upon the ability of the industry to pay. He wanted an agreement which was going to guarantee to the miners continuity of employment under impossible conditions, which would formulate in every area and district a trust which would, in course of time, become more drastic in its control of the coal industry than anything we have ever had even under the Miners' Federation itself.

My hon. Friend knows as well as I do that there are many collieries in South Wales to-day whose coal is not worth the price of slag, but they are operated, and can operate, under the present system. Those collieries are being operated owing to the very fact that we have control. The effect of unification of wages will be that there will be no interest in developing the best pits, such as those of the Powell Duffryn Colliery, to which reference has already been made. People will feel that, whatever they produce, they will never have the opportunity, by good management, concentration of capital, and good judgment, of creating reserves for the purpose of making and extending developments in other fields. One individual whom I know spent £500,000 before he saw coal; but men are not going to develop their mines unless they are allowed to work as an individual unit. The unification scheme would prove to be a whip with which the Federation could scourge the backs of the rest of the community. Speaking for myself—and I believe I speak for the majority of Members of this House—we are not prepared to accept from the Miners' Federation or any other federation a degree of control which would place us in the position that, in whatever industry we were engaged, we were dependent upon them for the basis of our livelihood. The Secretary for Mines, in opening the Debate, referred to the fact that some people thought that the present depression throughout the country was not attributable to the coal industry, and by the coal industry, I take it, he meant the Mineowners' Association. I think it is time we made it perfectly clear to the Federation—and I speak with full knowledge that I shall have to face criticism in South Wales as a consequence of what I am saying—it is time we made it perfectly clear that the depression in this country has not been caused by the mine-owners, the Government, or anyone else. To a great extent it has been caused by the fact that the most necessary commodity in the manufacturing life of this country has been put up to a price which has made it impossible for industry to carry on.

We have lost all markets. One of my representatives has been in Italy within the last two months, and the feeling there is so bitter against us as to make it almost hopeless to believe that it will ever be possible to resume friendly commercial relations with them. The Miners' Federation and the other industries of the country must realise this. During the War, under the guise of advancing the interests of the miners, raising their wages and bettering their conditions—and it should be clearly understood that, even in times of peace, the risk of work in the mines is less than on the seas; the percentage of casualties is considerably less—wages were advanced to an impossible figure, and the price of coal was advanced in order to make up for the deficiency which was being caused in this country by the sale of coal at less than cost. We exploited the Italian people, and created an atmosphere of bitterness against us as a nation, for which we were not responsible, but for which the Miners' Federation as a body were absolutely responsible. They talk about internationalism, about the international spirit and the Third International; but we never saw any evidence of that when they were demanding increases of wages, nor was there in the whole of their programme any evidence whatever that they were considering the Italian Socialists and the Italian workmen when they were talking about getting more wages. Now they wonder why it is that the Italians will not buy their coal; that, for all the fine instincts which actuated them during 1916–1920, the Italian is a dirty dog and is not buying their coal. For five years to come the Italians have entered into large contracts with America, and delivery has been guaranteed by the Americans. The same thing has happened in the Argentine, and it is hopeless for anyone who is exporting coal, or who has any idea of developing international trade, to expect people to do business until we can go into the market and sell our goods at a price which will compete with the foreigner.

I say flatly that it is no use discussing this Bill, or the merits of control or decontrol, until we recognise that the miners have got to take a cut in wages, and a substantial cut; and not only that, but they have got to give us output. I have some figures dealing with the question of export output. In 1913 we exported 76,000,000 tons of coal, of the value of £53,000,000. In 1920 we exported 28,000,000 tons, of the value of £120,000,000. In 1920 the wages drawn by the miners were £250,000,000; in 1914 they were £80,000,000. In 1913 or 1914, the miners gave us 287,000,000 tons of coal; last year they gave us 226,000,000 tons. In 1914 there were 1,080,000 men employed in the industry; in December, 1920, there were 1,220,000 and yet the production was down 26 per cent. I have here some figures quoted by a man whom, I think, the House will accept as an absolute authority—Sir Leonard Llewellyn—in connection with costs in the Cambrian collieries. There are four companies, and the average wage paid during 1920 to every man in the pits was 22s. a day. I join issue, therefore, with the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. Walsh) when he said that 18s. is the average to-day, although I know he was referring to Lancashire. The House must not, moreover, confuse the principle that all men employed in and about the mines are not necessarily colliers. The hewers, the men working at the coal face—the colliers themselves—drew on an average, 26s. 7d. per day; and it must be remembered that they were only working five shifts of seven hours per day, bank to bank. The amount received by the shareholders in that particular case was three per cent. of the total cost of the labour expended in the production of the coal; 80 per cent. of the cost of production went in wages. There were eight per cent. more men in the pits, and there was a decrease in production of 36 per cent. Unless we can get the Miners' Federation to realise fully that the country as a whole is determined not to stand any more dictation of this kind, we have absolutely no hope of ever recovering our trade and getting back to a safe and established position in industrial life. Unemployment must increase. Assuming that when the Bill is passed 1,250,000 men are thrown out of employment, through the act of a gracious Government they will draw unemployment doles. I should like to ask what have these men in South Wales done with the money they have earned from 1914 onwards, and why should they be drawing unemployment doles through having exploited the rest of the community. I hope the Government will take a very firm hand in dealing with this matter. It is time the other trade unionists were protected) against their action. I know my hon. Friends above me will disagree with me, but I should like to tell them that I represent as much labour as anyone of them, and I can speak with as much authority on behalf of Labour as any one of them, because my Division is an industrial Division purely and simply—[AN HON. MEMBER: "God help them!"]—and they are very pleased to have me. I hope the Government will insist upon dealing with this matter in a very determined fashion, and I hope the House will support them.

I represent an industrial mining constituency, and I think, as a Unionist, I should put forward my views in opposing this Bill. The question really before the House is as to whether decontrol shall take place on 31st March or not. One has to look at what will happen when decontrol takes place. If this Bill passes into law decontrol will take place within a month from to-day, and one therefore has to look at the people who are directly affected. I listened with very great interest to the speech of the hon. Member (Mr. Gould), and I agree with the figures he gave. If you look at it from the miners' point of view you have to consider that for the last four years, they have been accustomed to a standard of living to which they were entirely unaccustomed before the War. They have had either four or five War bonuses, they have had the Sankey Commission, and they have been entitled to expect a continuance of this for a time. If on 31st March they are brought face to face with the mineowners, and the mineowners have to make a commercial success of their business, trouble will ensue, and my objection to this Bill is that there will be a clean cut on 31st March which will make trouble instead of a gradual decontrol in which all concerned may get accustomed to the changing circumstances. If you look at the miners' standard of living to-day they have been, accustomed to receive these wages. I do not agree that they wrongfully demanded increases of wages. They were led by their leaders to believe that they were entitled to the increase of wages which they had, and there was no one in the House who denied that they were entitled to them, and they have, therefore, on the footing that they are getting those increased wages, made commitments which miners cannot get rid of at a moment's notice. I defy anyone to point to a more patriotic body of men than the miners. At the outbreak of the War there were very few slackers among them. They offered their services, and many of them were accepted and they did their duty during the War, and what happened by reason of so many of them joining was that the conditions in the mines were considerably changed. A lot of work was thrown upon those who remained, and they felt that they were entitled, as they were doing more work, to more pay, and they had it. My fear, speaking for a mining constituency, is that this clean cut on 31st March will spell trouble.

Take the mineowners' view. There are no mineowners who are in favour of decontrol taking place on 31st March. I do not go so far as the Labour Members have gone in saying there has been a breach of faith by the Government in saying that decontrol should take place on. 31st March instead of 31st August. Although in Section 11 of the Coal Mines Emergency Act, 1920, it is provided that it shall continue in force until 31st August, 1921, the Act itself was one to make temporary provision on account of emergency arising from the War, so that I do not agree with them in saying there has been any breach of faith, and one does not want at the present moment to consider breach of faith or want of faith of any kind whatever. One wants, while there is yet time, to look this matter fairly and squarely in the face and say, is it expedient for the country at large that there should be decontrol or there should not? I hold no brief for the mine-owners. They can very well take care of themselves, and one may be quite well assured that if the price of coal has to be raised in order to meet wages the mine-owners will not suffer. They will not work the mines at a loss. If wages have to remain high they will put the additional cost on to the coal, and the public will have to pay for it. But the mine-owners are opposed to the Bill, and they will have every right to have their views expressed in this House. They had their industry taken from them by the Government when it was a paying concern. They were well organised. They were getting a good output of coal. The Government takes command of the industry. The Government raises the wages. The Government incurs various extravagances, and then the Government proposes on a given date, 31st March, to hand back to the mineowners an industry that has been practically wrecked by their extravagance. The mineowners object to it being done in that way, and they say: "Let those who have been the cause of prices being raised to the extent they stand at present take control and keep control of the mines until by a gradual reduction we are able to put the matter on a commercial basis again."

Look at the matter from the public point of view. Coal is an absolute necessity, whatever the price may be, and you will not get that price unless you take into account wages, expenses and mine-owners' profits. Which is it more economical to do? Is it more economical for the House to say to the Government, "Instead of cutting adrift in the way you propose to do, instead of throwing the mining industry back in a mutilated state, instead of putting the miners and mineowners face to face in an impossible position, keep control of the business until these matters are settled. Postpone doing what you intend to do." Everyone I think, at any rate on this side of the House, is in favour of decontrol at the earliest possible moment. The country shrieks for decontrol of all industries, the country is tired of all management by Government officials. We all want to be away from Government control as soon as possible and let every industry pay its own way. But there is a price to be paid for that, and when you get the miners with their high rate of wages and the high cost of living as it is at present, and you get the mineowners on the other hand saying, "Either you have to have a diminution of your wages of half what you had before or we close our pits," what are the public going to do? The public have got to say, "We must have coal." What will happen then? The Government will have gone away before the trouble arises. The Government might say, "This is a matter for you to settle among yourselves. You must put it on an economic basis. True we have done everything in our power to-destroy an economic basis. You put it right." Then, as certain as certain can be, there will be an upheaval in the coal industry and the miners will refuse. I speak with knowledge and I speak ore behalf of a body of miners who are second to none in patriotism and I know they will, and I regret to say it, but I shall feel a very great deal of sympathy with them. They are face to face with the problem of suddenly having their wages cut down by half at a given date because the mine-owners will say to them, "We can only work on a commercial basis. If you are to continue to work our mines you must take off half your wages," and they will say no. Then what can the Government do? They can merely step in between the mineowners and the men and propose legislation. Legislation for what? They cannot make the mineowners conduct their business at a loss. They cannot compel the miners to accept less wages than a certain amount and there is a deadlock.

But what I am frightened of is this. When the Government steps in in matters of that kind it steps in very boldly at the start, and at the end there is a compromise that is no compromise, and if the Government steps in between the mineowners and the men, and then after an interval, shall we say, of there being a cessation of work for a fortnight or three weeks, to put it in a hopeful way, what will it have cost the nation? It is not a question merely of the coal industry. You have to think of the shipping and the iron and steel industries, which are all dependent upon it. Some time ago, I inquired what the cost to the country would be of the railway strike, which lasted only a week. I was told the cost would be about £10,000,000. What would it be if you had a similar repetition of this? £10,000,000 multiplied by three, and then perhaps you will have to do some more multiplying. I hope I am taking a very pessimistic view of it, but I feel so confident that what I am saying is true, and that there will be trouble, that I implore the Government, before they put themselves ultimately before the miners and mineowners, to pause and think if there is a way out, if they cannot say to themselves, "After 31st March we will have a sliding scale; we will gradually retire; we will allow the miners to become accustomed to a change of conditions; we will allow the mineowners to take up the reins of government again and the arranging of prices gradually; we will endeavour to let the two get together gradually, and see how the thing works out." I do implore the Government to do that simply because I foresee trouble. There is no man in this House more anxious for decontrol than I am. There is no stauncher Conservative in this House than I am, and it is because I feel that this Bill is not playing the game, either with the mineowners or with the miners, that I oppose it. I feel so strongly in my opposition that I, certainly much against my inclination, feel compelled to carry my opposition with me into the Lobby.

I want to supplement the appeal which has been made by the hon. Member who has just sat down, because I desire to address my appeal, not only to the Government to take a more leisurely course in regard to this Bill and postpone the date to something after the 31st March, but I appeal also to the Member for the West Riding and his associates as to their future conduct in regard to this matter. This afternoon we have heard the Government blamed time and again. Most people feel that coal control when it has been on has been abused on both sides. I happen to come from a mining area and I know that in Durham the opinion is held that not only has coal control been abused by the miners of this country but by the mineowners themselves. The mineowners have spent a good deal of money on capital account which would not have been spent had not the mines been under Government control, and we have at the moment large numbers of men being discharged from the collieries, surplus labour employed during recent years. If that is true, it is quite evident there has been wasteful expenditure on the part of the owners in a great number of collieries in this country. On the other hand, let us take the record of the Miners' Federation during the past two years. I do not want to make any attack, but an appeal to them that their policy might be somewhat diverse. The Government have been blamed for having broken some contract with the Miners' Federation. We know very well that last year when the Government came along with a policy, not to deal with some emergency, but a considered policy to deal with the coalfields for some years to come, the Miners' Federation, after meeting behind closed doors, refused to touch that Bill. I think they made a great mistake. Had they accepted that Bill carrying on control to the 31st August, had they met that policy with a better and more sympathetic spirit, they would have been in a better position to-day. It is because I desire that the spirit behind that Bill should be worked more thoroughly that I appeal to the right hon. Gentlemen in charge of this Bill, not only to extend the time so as to have a period of conciliation to work on and not leave a legacy of bitterness as the result of the action in this House tonight, but so that we will have a chance of the owners and miners getting closer together to find some broad working basis for the future. If we do not do that what is going to happen? I know that when the call came for the War the miners flocked to the colours in great numbers in Northumberland and Durham. Suppose in the next few months we have collieries closed down all over the country, and those men who did hard fighting two or three years ago are out of work and on the streets, what will be their opinion? The country owes them something more than this, and if it is to cost us a matter of £10,000,000 to get rid of this legacy of bitterness I believe we will purchase it at a very small price, for £10,000,000 or £15,000,000 would be a small cost for that.

During the War we talked a great deal of the need for conciliation in labour affairs in this country. It was argued repeatedly that labour ought to have some larger share in the control of the industry. The Mines Bill was the first great experiment in that direction. It gave the miners nearly everything that was asked for by their members on the Sankey Commission except nationalisation. They rejected that Bill. I appeal to the Government to try and postpone this measure to-night. Let us have not an abrupt termination of coal control, but rather let us extend the period for two or three months—not to August, if you like—and in that two or three months let us try and get back to the spirit that lay behind the Government Bill of last year. Let the men make up their minds that they are going to work that measure in a spirit of conciliation. It is probably inevitable that some reduction of wages will have to take place. After this Bill passes we will be confronted with two embittered elements in the coal industry. That would be most lamentable, and I shall vote with the Labour party upon this matter, in the sincere wish that the Government will suspend immediately control and will carry on a little longer so that there may be a spirit of harmony and not a spirit of bitterness as would happen if the two forces are brought face to face with each other at the end of the month.

I want to join my appeal to that of the hon. Member who has just sat down to withdraw the Bill. The reasons which urge me to make such an appeal are of a different kind to the reasons which I gather actuated the hon. Gentleman in making his appeal. I think that not only should there be a postponement of the Bill but that the Bill should be withdrawn indefinitely until the coal trade of this country, which is so essential to other parts of our industrial system, has got on a sound financial basis. The Secretary for Mines in moving the Second Reading of the Bill to-day told us that it was to give effect to a Government decision—a Cabinet decision he named it—to decontrol the coal mines at the earliest possible moment. He stated that he thought there were very few people who would be sorry when decontrol took place. He stated that he was much surprised to find the gentlemen whose names were set down to the Motion for rejection of the Bill on Second Reading as they had been always his most sincere critics during his term of office as Minister of Mines. We have criticised at considerable lengths the methods by which the Government has controlled the mining industry. We have never criticised it for controlling the mining industry but we have criticised the right hon. Gentleman and others who have been associated with him in coal control for the method by which they have applied control to the industry in which we are so interested, and I had a feeling that while he said that we would be glad in our heart of hearts when the operation is over and control ended that he was speaking with his tongue in his cheek because he realises that every member of the Labour party is against the Government on the question of decontrolling the mining industry.

8.0 P.M.

Not only are the Members of the Labour party against the Government in seeking to decontrol the industry, but there is a very large number indeed of the mineowners of the country who are against the Government decontrolling the industry under present conditions. I hold in my hand speeches by members of the mineowners of the country, and there we find that they are very much up against the idea of decontrol at the present moment. As a matter of fact, a number of them charge the Government with bad faith. I have a speech by Sir Adam Nimmo, Vice-President of the Mine Owners' Association of Great Britain and the Chairman of the Scottish Coal Trades Conciliation Board, and in the course of that speech he said that the mineowners of the country think they have been badly let down by the Government. I have a speech here by Mr. Charles Carlow, Chairman of the Fife Coal Company, one of the largest coal companies in the country, and he says quite emphatically, in the course of that speech, that it is a distinct breach of faith on the part of the Government to seek to decontrol the industry at the moment. It is not only the miner but it is the mineowners as well who are up against the proposal of the Government in seeking to decontrol the industry at this juncture. When the right hon. Gentleman said that he believed that my hon. Friends and myself whose names are associated together in this proposal to reject the Bill on Second Reading would be glad in their heart of hearts when the operation was over he surely forgot the effect that decontrol will have on the industry under present conditions. I do not think that there is one of us, including the hon. Gentleman himself, but who is convinced of that, that if the present proposals of the Government are given effect to and the industry decontrolled on the 31st of this month, but what there will be a large addition to the unemployed in this country. I believe it will have the effect of closing a considerable portion of the mines where the meaner classes of coal are worked. If I am right in my assumption—and I believe he agrees with me in that assumption as well as many Mem- bers of this House—then how can he think that we will light-heartedly look towards decontrol of the mines, and that we will in our heart of hearts be glad when the operation is over? Does he think we will contemplate very light-heartedly the fact that if decontrol takes place and becomes an accomplished fact on the 31st March that there will be a serious attempt on the part of the coalowners in the country to secure a substantial reduction in wages? Referring to the speeches from which I have already quoted, the speeches of Mr. Carlow and Sir Adam Nimmo, these leading coal-owners not only blame the Government for letting them down, for being in breach of faith with the mining industry, but they go on to state that under the conditions that will be imposed upon the trade in the event of decontrol taking place at the end of this month, the coalowners will require to make an effort to secure a substantial reduction in wages. If that is to be the result of decontrol, how can the right hon. Gentleman think that we will be glad when the operation is over which will increase the number of unemployed as far as our own particular industry is concerned and will bring us up against the desire of the employers to impose a substantial reduction in the wages of the miners? No, Sir, it is nonsense for him to talk in that way and to think that he can by sophistry of that kind delude either the House or the country. So far as we are concerned, we are not in favour of decontrol. As a matter of fact, not only do we want control of the industry continued, but we want to see the industry nationalised. We want to see the nation getting whatever benefit accrues from the mining industry. The hon. Member for Cardiff (Mr. Gould), who recently addressed the House but who is not now in his place, told us about the huge wages that have been made by the miners. He forgot at the same time to let us know that there had been very substantial profits made by the coalowners as well. I understand that the hon. Gentleman, among his other operations, includes the operation of mineowner, so that he shared in the good things that have come to the mining industry during the period he was dealing with a short time ago. If there is so much to be made out of the mining industry—and I believe there is something to be made out of it by the application of good management and sound business—I believe that whatever is to be made out of it ought to be made out of it for the benefit of the whole of the people of this country and not simply for the benefit of a small section. Not only do I believe in the continuance of control of this important industry, but I think it is so essential to the well-being of the whole nation, so essential to all the other parts of our industrial system, that it ought to be owned and controlled by the Government, and whatever benefits accrue from it should be the common possession of the whole of our people.

The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bridgeman) in the course of his speech went on to say that he did not think the members of the Labour party would desire to see the industry subsidised to the extent of £5,000,000 per month at the expense of the taxpayer. But he was like the hon. Member for Cardiff, there were some things he forgot, and he forgot when he made that statement that the country had got some very substantial benefit from the miner and from the mining industry. He may remember that at one period during the war 2s. 6d. a ton was put on the selling price in this country, and we were told that the 2s. 6d. increase was required because of the fact that miners' wages had been increased. The Coal Commission afterwards set to examining the position, and we had it on the authority of one of the Government's own accountants that the Coal Controller at the time I am now dealing with, did not require to put a single penny on the price to meet the increase then made in miners' wages. As a matter of fact he pointed out that what happened after the 2s. 6d. went on was that an additional £25,000,000 of profit was made and that the Government and the coalowners between them divided this enormous additional sum, and that they divided it on the basis of something like £23,750,000 to the Government and £1,250,000 to the coalowner. Therefore, suppose the Government continued control for some time and it cost the figure that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned, it would be only using up some of the money that they have already secured from the industry, it would only be repaying to the industry some of the money that the Government made out of the industry during the period of control. There is a word other than "subsidy" that the right hon. Gentleman required to use. It is the word "repayment."

The right hon. Gentleman went on to deal with another phase of the question on which I should like to say a word or two. He said that the coal trade, both the miner and the mineowner, had taken the restrictions that had been imposed upon the industry with very good grace. I wonder what he meant when he used that expression. I think this is what the right hon. Gentleman meant. He meant that the mining industry had had restrictions imposed upon it that had not been imposed on the other industries of the country during the War. For instance, in 1915 we had imposed upon the mining industry the limitation of coal prices. That was embodied in a Bill and was passed through this House in July, 1915. It restricted the increase in the selling price of coal in the home market to 4s. a ton. During the time that this Bill was under consideration, I protested against the idea of limitations being placed upon the industry that would in all probability be reflected in the miners' wages. I pointed out at that time that the miners had to meet the increased cost of living, because at that time the cost of living had increased to a certain extent and was still increasing and continued to increase, as we all know, until a very short time ago. I pointed out that the miner was as much entitled to be compensated for the increased cost of living as any other section of the community.

As soldiers and sailors. I would like to inform the hon. and gallant Member and the other Members of the House present that I think that the sailors and soldiers should have been treated in an entirely different way than they were treated. I fought for better treatment for them in this House and in the country, and if some of the people who now sit in serried ranks behind the Government had been as willing to treat the soldiers and sailors as I was they would have been differently treated. But not only did I protest from the point of view of the effect that this Limitation of Coal Prices Act would have upon miners' wages, be- cause that was the point of view I was interested in—I was not so much interested in the point of view of the coal-owners' profits; but there were other Members of this House who were interested in the mining industry who protested at that time against the limitation in price that was being imposed on the trade, and that would have certain effects on the mining industry. There is another phase to this question. Not only had we this Limitation of Coal Prices Act placed on the Statute Book and put into operation, but it had the effect of giving to the other industries of the country a very substantial benefit at the expense of the coal industry. In normal times the inland price of coal is slightly higher than the f.o.b. price for export coal, but because of the effect of the Limitation of Coal Prices Act, to which I have directed the attention of the House, we had the position immediately reversed, and as my hon. Friend the Member for one of the South Wales Divisions (Mr. Hartshorn) has already pointed out, it had the effect in 1917 of the inland price being 7s. 4d. a ton less than the export price. In 1918 it was 6s. 5d.; in 1919 the difference was 19s. 11d., and in 1920 it was 46s. 6d., or in all the advantage that the nation got from the mining industry because of the Limitation of Coal Prices Act was £758,000,000. That is the total indebtedness of the nation to the industry because of the Limitation of Coal Prices Act, and suppose the Government continue to control the mining industry at a cost of £5,000,000 per month they would only be repaying to the industry some of the benefits that the Government and the nation as a whole have obtained from the industry. In the event of this Bill becoming law, it will have the effect of closing a number of mines. If it closes the mines of the country to the extent that I fear, you will increase very substantially your unemployment payment, so that if you do not pay money in one way you will have to pay it in another. I hope that before the Government finally make up their minds to pass the Bill, they will give this matter far more serious consideration than they have given it up to the present. They require to consider seriously the effect that it will have on the mining industry. I believe that it will have a serious effect both from the point of view of unemployment, and from the point of view of wages. If wages are to be substantially reduced it will reduce the purchasing power of the mining community. I hope that the Government will withdraw the Bill and take more time to consider the question.

The coalowners propose, in the event of the Government giving effect to the Bill, to deal with the miners in districts instead of nationally. During the period of control, wages and profits have been dealt with nationally. It would be a benefit to the trade of the country for wages and profits to continue to be dealt with nationally. Unless you deal with wages and profits nationally from a common pool, you will, in a time like this, have the poorer districts, where the meaner qualities of coal are produced, crushed out. In the keen competition that is prevailing in the mining industry at the moment, it will be impossible for the districts producing the meaner class of coal to continue to exist. If they are not crushed out in the competition, the men who are employed in those districts will have imposed upon them a lower wage than is paid to the men who are working in the districts where the richer class of coal is produced. That will impose upon those particular men an injustice that ought not to be imposed, either by the Government or the House. The men who are engaged in the districts where the inferior class of coal is produced have just as hard a work to do as the men in the districts where the finer classes are produced. They are incurring as much danger, and they are from every point of view entitled to the same reward for the services which they are giving to the nation as the men who are engaged in the districts where the better class of coal is produced.

Not only would the proposal of the Government have that effect, but, if the industry is to be decontrolled, there will have to be an adjustment of wages which will possibly mean the wages of the men being brought down by several shillings a day. There again, if a change of this kind has the effect which the coalowners seem to anticipate that it will have, and that it will mean a substantial reduction in the wages of the men to the amount of several shillings a day, that will be imposing an injustice upon the mining community which is not being imposed upon other classes in the community. Miners under present conditions have to pay the increased cost of living, which is 151 per cent above pre-War cost. If they are to have such a substantial cut made in their wages as is suggested in the speeches of leading coalowners in the event of decontrol taking place, it will mean treating the miner on an entirely different footing from other sections of the community, because up to the present time there has not been the substantial reduction in wages in any other parts of the industrial system that is foreshadowed by the leading coalowners in the country in the event of decontrol taking place. If the Government or the coalowners think that they will get the miners quietly to consent to such a substantial reduction as is foreshadowed, they are more hopeful than I am. I do not think the miners are going to sit down quietly to the substantial reduction in their wages that is suggested by the coalowners, and that is hoped for by the Government. The Government's intention in seeking decontrol of the industry at this moment is to get a substantial cut in miners' wages, and that has been suggested in speeches of hon. Members to-night. Before such a substantial cut in wages takes place the miner will have something to say, and the miners' leaders will have something to say.

The coalowners in outlining an agreement have not only suggested a substantial change in wages, but they have also suggested the profit that should fall to them under any arrangement that may be made between the miners and themselves. The profit which they think equitable is that the present profit should be the minimum profit, and that a profit of 2s. a ton should be the minimum profit paid to the coal-owner. If a minimum profit of 2s. a ton is to be paid to the coalowner, it will have a serious effect upon the prospects of the men. I do not think that the mineowner is entitled to get such a profit. When we were discussing the Limitation of Coal Prices Bill in 1915, the late Sir Arthur Markham stated in reply to an argument that had been used that if the coalowners were to make a profit of 2s. a ton it would mean making huge profits. I remember one of the leading coalowners in my own district, in the course of a discussion on wages, prices and profits stating that so far as his company was concerned a profit of 10d. a ton would enable it to pay 25 per cent. on its invested capital. So if we are to have the suggestions of the coalowners with regard to profit as well as to wages given effect to, they are going to have a very substantial profit notwithstanding the effect that they will have on the miner.

The hon. Member for Central Cardiff (Mr. Gould) said that the necessities of the country had been exploited by the miners during the period of control. It is suggested that it was not the profits of the coalowner or the action of the Government that was responsible for the manner in which the country had been exploited, but the huge wages earned by the miners. If the coal miners of this country had exploited the necessities of the country individually to the extent to which they were exploited by the Member for Cardiff, then God help the people of this country during the period of control! I understand that not only is the hon. Member interested in collieries, but that he has substantial interests in shipping, and it is common knowledge that the greatest exploiters during the War were shipowners, including the Member for Cardiff, so that if we had all exploited the necessities of the country in the same way as he did certainly the country would be bankrupt long before now. It comes very ill from the mouth of a man like the Member for Cardiff to say that the coal miners of the country have exploited the necessities of our people. The coal miners have had increases in wages, but these increases have not exceeded the amount by which the cost of living has increased, and the increase of wages given to the coal miners was required in order to enable them to meet the increased cost of living and not to make millions of pounds out of the transaction as the shipowners did. So the Member for Cardiff should be very careful when he is making charges of that description.

The hon. Member also said that he represents labour in this country to as great a degree as any of the Members on these Benches. That may be true, but he certainly was not representing labour in his speech to-night, and if he was labour in Cardiff is different from labour in any other part of the country that I know of. He certainly was not representing labour in the parts of the country with which I am more familiar than I am with Cardiff. My hon. Friend (Mr. T. Griffiths) can speak with more authority as to labour in Cardiff that I can, but he agrees with me that the Member for Cardiff was not representing labour even in Cardiff itself in the speech. I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman in charge of this Bill that it would be better for the mining industry of the country as a whole, and for the country and the Government for the Government to withdraw the Bill, and, if it is withdrawn, we, and those who are interested in the mining industry, miners on the one hand, and mineowners on the other, can go into the situation more closely than we have done up to the present, because if effect is given to the proposals of the Government we shall be brought face to face with a very serious situation in this country—a situation that will tax not only the energies of the coalowners and the coal miners, but will also tax the energies of the Government itself to an extent that they do not anticipate at the present moment.

The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Adamson), like most of the speakers in this Debate, has treated this question as if it was one that concerned at any rate chiefly—and to a large extent it does—the coal miners and the coalowners, and he was anxious to show in the earlier part of the speech that the coalowners were in agreement with the coal miners in deprecating this Bill for decontrolling the coal industry. He quoted Sir Adam Nimmo and others to that effect. There is, besides the point of view of the people in the industry, whether owners or miners, the point of view of the public, and I am sure that the public have only one opinion on the question of decontrol, or anything that the Government controlled during the last few years. If you go, I should almost imagine, even to any audience of the Labour party, they would give endorsement to this, that things should be decontrolled that have been controlled, for control brings high prices in all branches of living. Everybody who is concerned for higher wages and higher prices likes control and would like the Government to interfere, but the public have come to the conclusion, I am convinced, that the time has come when all controls, including that of coal, should be abolished and the nation should get back to a normal condition of affairs. Speaking from the point of view of the public rather than from the point of view of the industry, who would like the Government to continue control, we find that already considerable suffering is being caused, because we have not gone back to the normal state of affairs in the coal industry.

We were very much in sympathy with the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. Walsh) when he referred to the possibility of unemployment and of large numbers of people in the Wigan district connected with the coal industry being out of work, but, not to-morrow but to-day, if you go into the county with which I am perhaps most familiar, the county of Cumberland, you will find that iron ore mines that have never been at a stand from time immemorial are to-day out of commission. The miners are walking about the streets and their families are suffering. Why? Because the price of coal is so high that the blast furnaces, in the district are not able to continue, and the price of steel is so being cut by continental competition that, I am informed on credible authority, even if the ironworker and the steel-worker were to give their labour for nothing and the price of coal and coke remained as at present, we could not compete and sell in those markets, which are being supplied by cheap continental brands of steel. That being so, the trouble is already upon us in certain areas. I contend that you cannot too soon come to the reality of the position—not the realities of to-morrow but the realities of to-day. I hope that the Government will bring this to an issue rapidly. As a nation we depend for our industrial position on two factors. The two factors in the world markets are an abundance of reasonably cheap coal and the possession of an intelligent and skilled population able to work that coal. Every industry in the country depends on such coal—the cotton industry, the woollen industry, and every great industry.

The cost of living depends on a reasonably cheap supply of coal. Unless the price can be brought down, I do not say to the lowest point reached before the War, but approximately in that direction, we cannot make iron and steel and conduct all our great manufactures in competition with the other nations of the world. Our sympathy and intelligent interest in the matter should go in the direction of getting back as soon as possible to those pre-War prices and conditions that enabled us to live amongst the nations of the world. It is not for the Government to determine what wages should be. I have great confidence in the commonsense and the goodwill of the people engaged in all our industries, and I hold that it is just as well to face this question to-day as to face it in three or four months' time. Whether the wages are to be district wages or national wages must be settled between the coalowners and the miners. If either side is satisfied that the industry cannot be carried on except under certain conditions, they will come to those conditions. I do not want to see big cuts in wages, but if it is necessary that there should be cuts we cannot resist them, and if the cuts become general we may be quite sure that the cost of living automatically will come down. We cannot see a low level of wages on the pre-War basis and a cost of living on the War basis. Such a thing it would be absurd to anticipate. I do not think that the population of the country would be substantially any the poorer for this alteration in the rates of pay and in the cost of living. So far as my limited experience goes, men tell me that they were better off with the lower rates of wages and the lower cost of living than they have been with higher wages and a higher cost of living, and I think there is a great deal of truth in the contention.

It would be a very strange thing if we had any discussion where the miner and the miners' wages came under review if there were not found someone who referred to the idle and greedy miner. The hon. Member for Central Cardiff referred to the miners getting advances in wages on the plea of the bad conditions under which they worked, and he pointed out that seamen worked under worse conditions than miners. I do not know what is his actual knowledge of the mines. Anyone who has any knowledge of underground life will readily admit that the miner is a very much underpaid person under any conditions, from the standpoint of hard physical labour and the danger he has to undergo. If the miner has had one curse in the past it is that he has worked too much and too hard. The fact remains that whatever coal is produced it is produced by the miner, whether he is good or bad, and not by the idlers who criticise the miner. One has doubts that the hon. Member knows anything about commerce when he makes a statement about miners' wages forcing up prices. The phrase he used was "the rapacity of the miners in demanding wages." He must know that the cost of living went up before wages went up, and that it was not the rapacity of the miners in demanding increased wages that sent up the price of coal; but I would advise the hon. Member to square his opinions on this point with those of another commercial man of very high standing, who, speaking to his shareholders and referring to the profiteers of 1914–19, compared them with the buccaneers of byegone days, and said: authority. We cannot remind this House too often that the Government set up a Commission, presided over by a chairman selected by the Government, and not by the Miners' Federation, and yet the decision of that chairman and that Commission—every section of it—was that the present individual system of working the coal industry stands condemned. I do not know what you call practical politics, but after an investigation of that kind we had a declaration in favour of nationalisation, and I venture to say that if the people who have the right to have the last word on this question had an opportunity we might hear more about the nationalisation of mines than we do at the present moment. Then the Secretary for Mines stated that the Miners' Federation had agreed that this question of the nationalisation of mines should only be dealt with politically. As a matter of fact, the position was that there was before the Miners' Federation the question of direct action as against political action, and the Miners' Federation decided as against direct action and in favour of political action for the nationalisation of mines, and there is every indication that if the democracy, of this country had an opportunity of voicing their opinion on that question, we would hear more in a practical way about it in the immediate future than the way it has been dealt with and faith broken with the Miners' Federation.

We cannot get away from this, that the idea at the present time is to cut down the miners' wages. The hon. Member for the Exchange Division of Manchester (Sir J. Randles) said that this was not only a miners' question, but it was a public question. We admit that, but the miners are determined that the public will not get cheap coal, either to manufacture steel or iron or anything else, at the expense of the men who go into the bowels of the earth to produce that coal. It is admitted that costs must be reduced, and there is only one practical way of reducing costs, and the Coal Commission brought that out very clearly. The mines are not worked as they might be, new developments are not carried out as they ought to be, and improved machinery is not in operation in the mining industry. Costs can be reduced in that way, in my opinion, rather than in the way indicated. So far as the question before the House at the present time is concerned, it is neither the miners' wages, nor is it nationalisation, nor is it the interest of the coalowner as against the interest of the miner; it is a question of an industry that has been placed in a very peculiar position because of the War, an industry that has been endeavouring to fix up a national agreement or understanding that would prevent a recurrence of the terrible things that have happened in the past in. that industry. If we go back immediately to the old conditions, whether we like it or not, we may have a repetition of what took place in 1893, when the Midland Federation fought against a reduction of wages, and in 1894, when the Scottish miners did the same, and in 1898, when the South Wales miners also fought against a reduction of wages. Surely, it the coal trade and the coal miner have played such an important part in connection with the War, I do not think it is too much to ask that when the coal miners' representatives and the coalowners are getting together and endeavouring to fix up an agreement that might prevent serious trouble in the coal trade and be the means of creating a better friendship between the owners and the miners, it is not too much to ask—irrespective of what may be said to the contrary, it is a breach of faith to decontrol the trade on 31st March—that the original undertaking should be carried out, and an opportunity be given to endeavour to fix up a national agreement that may prevent not only one calamity, but a series of calamities in connection with the mining industry.

I regret very much that the Hon. Member for Bothwell (Mr. Robertson) has brought in the old bogey of nationalisation. He took occasion during his speech to say that it was noted in the Sankey Report that the mining operations of this country stood condemned. This was stated by a gentleman who knew nothing except theory of the matter, and had no grounds to go upon, and it has told against a very successful, decent, hard-working class of men, namely, the mine managers of England, Scotland and Wales, and I resent very strongly any statement inside this House or outside that the coal mining industry to-day stands condemned. He also stated that the mines to-day were not worked as they ought to be, and he went on to say that there was not the machinery in the mines that there might be. I want to tell the hon. Gentleman and those associated with him that, during the last few years, a very large amount of machinery has been put into the mines, and that in Scotland especially—I speak for Scotland more intimately than any other country—a very huge output has been brought from the mines due to the operations of coal-cutting machines. I believe last year and the year before we had 12,000,000 tons raised by coal-cutting machines, and to say that the coal mining industry is not being kept up, because we have not proper machinery in the workings is a thing which no one who knows anything about the mines can pass over.

9.0 P.M.

I was very much disappointed at the speech of the hon. Member for Ogmore. I did hope that he would at least have given us some leading on the matter as to some arrangement being made between the coalowners on the one hand and the miners on the other, but, from the attitude he has taken up, it seems to be almost hopeless to expect anything of the kind. Having at all times from these Benches expressed my view against control, I am not against decontrol of the coal trade just now. I think it ought to be decontrolled as soon as it possibly can be, but I must confess that I, as well as others, expected that the Government control would go on until the 31st August, 1921. Therefore I have a great deal of sympathy with the hon. Gentleman who moved the rejection of the Bill because he, as well as the rest of us, clearly understood that decontrol would not take place until the 31st August, and, while I am not going to oppose the Government in their Bill, I would make this appeal, as others have done, that, in view of the very serious condition of the coal trade, and nothing having been done to settle the question of prices and wages, especially wages, between coal owners and miners. I think it would be a good thing if this could be delayed for a month or two in order to get aver the difficulty. It is a fact, which I have stated over and over again to my constituents, that when decontrol takes place, one or other of several things must happen. If the coal trade is to go on, and wages remain as they are, then you must raise the prices to the public. That, I think, would be a calamity, in face of the important fact that the prices to the public, I think, are too high already, or, on the other hand, it means that the wages, by some means, must come down. If the wages do not come down, and prices are not raised, the only other alternative is that the mines must close, because at the present time it is a fact that very few of the collieries are making money. You have simply to look at the paper given to us to-day. Only in one case—Derby, Nottingham and Leicester—is a profit being made. There is a dead loss in every other district in the three kingdoms. It is a very serious matter, and it has been brought about in various ways. Exception was taken to the loss of 5s. 8d., but the hon. Gentleman did not call attention to the footnote which states that, on making up this calculation of the loss during January, nothing was allowed for depreciation, for interest on debentures and loans, or for profits accruing for that month, and taking interest on capital and the profits accruing to the owners, I say you would have to add almost another £2,000,000. So that the trade at the present time is in a very bad condition.

The hon. Member said that he objected to this Bill because it was leaving the industry in the lurch at the worst possible time. I am bound to say there is a good deal to be said on the point that during the time of control any amount of money was made out of the trade and given to the public and the industries, because it is a fact that the household trade and the industries received coal at from 3s. to 5s. a ton less than the coal could be produced. That has been going on for years. The hon. Gentleman said this Bill was brought on at the worst possible time. I think there is a good deal of truth in that. Trade is bad now, and those who are taking exception to the decontrol just now are not very far off the mark when they say that the Government has brought the industry into this condition by certain things they did, and that before handing this industry back to the coal trade they should have seen to it that all the obligations they undertook were fulfilled, and wages adjusted. He also went on to say that it was a breach of faith on the part of the Government to bring in decontrol. I am not going to say that it is a breach of faith or not. Certainly I understood that decontrol would not take place until 31st August, but I am not going so far as to say it is a breach of faith. In the interests of the public, I think they probably have a good reason for decontrol, and letting the trade stand on its own legs, the same as any other industry. I should like the Government to reconsider the whole question, and try and arrange to get the matter of wages settled between the coalowners and the miners before bringing about decontrol. We have been told that one way to settle this question is for the Government to subsidise the coal trade from the 31st March in such a way that profits will be made to the coalowners and better wages given to the miners. I do not think the public would stand subsidies any longer in connection with the coal trade. There has been far too much subsidising, and it is time the whole thing was stopped. With the common-sense of the coalowners on the one hand and the miners on the other, I think they might meet round a table and settle the matter in such a way as would be satisfactory to both parties.

A great deal has been said as to what has been the cause of the slump in trade. It is said that we have lost our foreign trade. I was in America last September and October; and I spoke to a number of those interested in the shipping and the coal trade, and I know that they were watching keenly what was going on here. I may inform hon. Members opposite that they never did a worse thing than when they allowed the coal strike to go on. The Americans were waiting for trade. They could bring coal to Europe and give 3,000 miles of a start to our merchants who only have to convey the coal 200 miles from the east coast of Scotland.

Why is it that the American people can beat us in our own markets? During the month of September we find that the price of raising coal in America was 34s., whilst in December it was higher and for the month of January it was over 40s. per ton. The Americans can raise coal for about 12s. per ton, and therefore they can afford to pay a big freight and send their coal to Europe. I think it is a pity we did not see that the very thing we should have avoided was to permit America to come into our markets in that way, because they have filled all our foreign markets with coal. We ought to strive as a nation to so increase our output and production that we shall be able to reduce the cost, even supposing there had to be some little reduction in wages to bring our export trade back to as near normal conditions as possible. Unless we get cheaper coal we cannot set our industries going, and I think if we put a little more spurt on this could be done. Constantly we have heard in our Debates that the reason why production and output has increased was because the management did not give facilities for taking the coal away from the pits. I know that was not accurate. The moment the conditions changed whereby on account of increased output so much more was to be given to the men per day we found the output rose by 500,000 tons a week and nothing brought that about except the fact that the men did more work. In the year 1913, the output was 287,000,000 and about 1,000,000 men were employed. Taking the average for last September per man it amounted to 200 tons, whereas in 1913 the average was 300 tons per man. If the same amount of work had been done in 1920 as was done in 1913 we should have had an output of 300,000,000 tons and then we could have had an export trade which would have levelled up our exchange and this would have brought about a great reduction in prices, and we should have been feeling the benefit of it to-day.

Unless we get increased production and a decrease in the cost, I am afraid that it will be a long time before we can bring back our foreign market. About 18 months ago I was speaking to my constituents. I represent a mining and industrial district, and I told them that the only thing they could do was to increase production, and unless they did so, with the facilities America possessed and the advantages she enjoyed through a low cost of getting coal she would take away our foreign markets, because she could produce coal more cheaply. Unfortunately, that has come too true, but I am in hopes that by all putting our shoulders to the wheel and increasing output and decreasing the cost, we shall be able to bring about a better state of things, and be able to regain our markets. I am not going to oppose this Bill, and I wish to make an appeal to the Government. In the interests of the country and the whole mining industry, I think it would be a great pity if decontrol took place before a settlement has been reached between the mineowners and the Miners' Federation. I think the Government will do well to postpone decontrol until this matter has been settled.

I really cannot understand why decontrol should be objected to in the coal trade. Only yesterday I had the opportunity of going through a large works in the North of England where they manufactured wheels and I asked how they were going on. I was told they were working one shift instead of three, and they did not know what was going to happen because they could not compete in foreign markets. I asked if that was on account of high wages or short hours, and I was told that the reason was the dearness of coal. If that is the state of things while coal is linden control it will go on, and therefore if control is taken off and the miners and the employers meet together, surely there may come out of it a better state of things. At any rate, it could not be very much worse. In this matter we have to face the facts. I consider that the only way out of the difficulty is for those directly concerned with the trade to come together and find some reasonable method by which the industries of the country can be carried on. Under these circumstances, if control is not showing that at the present moment that is not possible, there ought not to be any objection to control being removed to see what can be done. I do not think matters could be much worse through removal than they are now. They might be made a great deal better. The same remarks will apply to every other thing in this country which is suffering from Government control, and the sooner we take our responsibilities on our own shoulders, without any subsidies, the better.

I think I ought to speak on this question of decontrol because I represent a constituency largely composed of miners, and I also happen to be General Secretary of the Miners' Association in the county, which shows the largest debit on the White Paper recently issued. It has been stated that the coalowners are about to give 14 days' notice to their workmen, and in reply to that it has been asserted by the coal-owners that it is being done with a view to entering into day-to-day contracts at the expiration of the 14 days' notice. With regard to the county I represent, I have been informed that we will get the 14 days' notice, but that at the expiration we will not be on day-to-day contracts, because the whole of the mines will stop, and that will mean that immediately somewhere about 11,000 men will be thrown out of employment. The present economic condition of the collieries is not due to negligence on the part of employers or workmen; a good deal of it is due to the Government because of its manipulation of the coal industry during the time it has had control. Whatever opinions we may hold with regard to decontrol, I say the Government ought not to decontrol the industry until it has put it on an economic basis. Arguments have been advanced with regard to the condition of other industries which are said to be suffering because coal is so dear. But is it suggested that, in order to enable other industries to provide profits for employers, the miner is to be expected to accept lower wages and to make sacrifices? An hon. Member opposite, who represents one of the Lanark divisions (Mr. R. McLaren), referring to the statement of the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Hartshorn) in regard to the 5s. 8d. debit shown in the White Paper as against the mining industry, taking the country as a whole, pointed out that a footnote stated that various matters had not been taken into consideration, and suggested that another £2,000,000 ought to be added to the outgoings to cover these items.

£2,000,000 to cover depreciation of plant, debentures, loans and interest on capital, as well as owners' profits.

I take it that interest would be profits. Apparently we cannot get to know what the real profits of the employers are, although I think that is information which should be supplied to this House. It ought not to be assumed that the falling-off in the industry is largely due to the miners' wage. It should also be credited to the fact that the coalowners' profits have played a large part in the debit placed before the coal industry.

Another complaint we have as miners is in regard to the Government's attitude. We suggest that the Government will be dishonouring all the bargains entered into with the Miners' Federation during the past few years. As has been pointed out, wages were raised because of the increased cost of living, and when the first War wage was given, the increased cost of living showed a percentage basis of 80 per cent. over pre-War prices. It was then agreed with the Coal Controller at that time, in a document signed by Mr. Smillie and Mr. Ashton on behalf of the miners, and by Sir Guy Calthorpe on behalf of the Government, that the wage should vary with any change in the cost of living. 20th September, 1917, was the date of the first war wage, and instead of there being any decrease in the cost of living, we had shortly to go again to Sir Guy Calthorpe and ask him to consider the advisability of a further advance of wages to meet the additional increase in the cost of living. We got another advance of wage to enable us to meet that increase. The increased cost of living when we got our first advance was 80 per cent. above pre-War prices. To-day the increased cost is 151 per cent. It must be quite apparent to hon. Members that the miner has got to exist to-day, the same as he had in 1917, but decontrol takes place, and if everything happens that we are told will happen, he will be deprived of what he was given to meet the increased cost of living whilst that cost is higher than it was when he received the increase. The bargain was entered into by the Government, but they are now making an attempt, by decontrol, to repudiate it. To say the least of it, that is not fair, either in business or in politics.

Then we come to the Sankey award. A Commission sat, and evidence was given before it which stirred the whole of the people of these islands. People who had been bitterly opposed to the mining element up to that time were convinced by the appalling facts placed before the Commission. The whole cry, not only from the miners, but from 80 per cent. of the people, was that the miners were entitled to a better standard of life than they were before. The Government agreed to that, and the Leader of the House stated here that the Government would give effect, both in the spirit and in the letter, to the findings of the Commission. The advance of 2s. a day, which we received at that time, was not obtained on the increased selling price of coal, but because everybody recognised that the miner deserved a better standard of life. If the mining industry is the vital industry of this country, why is it that the Government wants to bring chaos and consternation, not only to the miners themselves, but to the whole community, before they make a genuine attempt to put that industry on a sound economic basis? So late as 20th October last we had a miners' strike. The hon. Gentleman has lamented that strike, but during its progress, and when the time arrived to make an attempt at a settlement, an indication was given by the Government that if the owners and the workmen's representatives would come to an arrangement that everything pointed to a National Committee being set up for the adjustment of wages. The Government said, "You will receive an advance in regard to work," but they laid it down that before 31st March these two bodies who were negotiating must present to them a scheme for the future regulation of wages on and after that date. These two bodies have been trying to negotiate, and I believe the Government is more responsible than anybody else in that, when they were coming nearer to a settlement, they butted in with their decontrol suggestion during a critical period. They said, "Whether or not you find a settlement, we shall bring in a Bill to decontrol this industry from 31st March." Seeing that the Government made all these arrangements, seeing that they helped to make these agreements, and, up to the last one, largely influenced all of them during the last three or four years, it is grossly unfair that they should now want to throw off all their responsibility and to leave the industry in the deplorable position shown by the figures which have been quoted. The Government ought to reconsider its position. While several hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House will probably oppose this Bill, and while others will be in doubt, there is no question as to which lobby I shall be in when the Division is taken, not simply because I am a miners' representative, but because I believe that it will be for the general good of the community as a whole not to take control off now. The Government should lend a hand, if they can, to help the miners and the owners to come to a settlement as to what the wages will be in future. That will be far better than to try to push this Bill rapidly through the House and to bring about the decontrol of the industry on 31st March.

Considered either from the standpoint of the owners and the miners or from that of the public, it is inevitable that the proposal of the Secretary for Mines should occasion very considerable anxiety. As this Debate has developed, however, notwithstanding that anxiety and our realisation of all that decontrol means, I think on careful consideration, most Members of the House will be inclined to commend the judgment of the Minister, It would be futile at this particular point to seek to discover the responsibility for the condition in which the coal industry is to-day. I cannot help thinking that our worry at the present moment is only a proof—I hope it will turn out to be a wholesome proof—that we have reached a time when we must come into closer grips with the difficulties which represent the aftermath of the War. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Fife (Mr. Adamson) when he came to one of his more truculent periods, seemed to indicate that the miner, some how or other, was to be differentiated from every other class. He rather imitated the God of Thunder in intimating what the result to the country would be if that were so. I rather think, and I hope I am not a Jeremiah, that the unhappy condition of the miners to-day is likely to be the unhappy condition of other industrial workers to-morrow. The fact of the matter is that we have come to a point when we have to get away from all forms of control and from all artificial contrivances to defy the economic law. We have sought to postpone the evil day as long as possible. Looking back, perhaps it is only fair to say that, in their anxiety to humour the prejudices which were inevitable after the great War, it may be that the Government acted quite wisely; but in this postponement they exhausted the reserve wealth of the nation, and I am not sure we have not suffered greatly through losing a considerable amount of the energy of our people.

Two or three points have been made quite clear in this Debate. I was very glad to hear, in the excellent speech of the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. Walsh) that he practically confessed, so far as the mining industry is concerned, that no profits at all are being earned now. Therefore, whoever is complained against at the present time, it cannot be the coal master. My hon. Friend agrees that no profits are being earned, but I do not think he was as free in his confession that the wages, notwithstanding the fact that no profits are being earned, represent a figure the object of which is to protect the miner from all sacrifice. That, of course, is impossible, and it is no good guidance on the part of any Labour leader to suggest that, in an industry which admittedly is making no profit, but is carrying a loss, there should be no break in wages.

The third point which is admitted now is that control was really a mistake. Therefore, if our troubles are due to control, the responsibility for those troubles must be largely laid at the door of those who dictated the control. The hon. Member for Ogmore, with delightful casuistry, said that the miners did not ask for it. I am perfectly certain that I could go further and say that the mine-owners did not ask for it. The point against the Labour leaders is that, by their extraordinary anxiety that, while in other industries the proprietors and the workers alike were being rewarded, there should be no increments to meet the increased cost so far as the mineowner was concerned, by their pursuit of the policy of biting off their nose to spite their face, and their constant talk of nationalisation, they made it necessary for the Government to practise nationalisation in this temporary fashion represented by control. I represent a mining constituency, and, being in daily touch with the miners, and claiming them not only as my constituents but as my friends, I am well aware that there is much to be said for the splendid sympathetic appeal of the hon. Member who moved this Amendment; but I am also conscious that in every mining constituency in this country the Government will be represented as cruel and indifferent to the feelings of the miners, and the source of responsibility for the present position will be made as obscure as possible to the miner. I have just come from the Fife election, so I speak with great feeling about misrepresentation. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I accept the cheers from the Labour Benches opposite as indicating that I am pretty near the truth when I say that misrepresentation with regard to decontrol is likely to be the fate of the Government. Decontrol, however, will be no little gain for us if we realise that the suffering caused by control should be a warning to us to get rid finally of State interference with industry.

I sympathise with the hon. Member for Ince in pointing out that the miner to-day finds himself, unlike other industrial workers, without reserves for a rainy day; but I cannot depart from my charge that he and his friends are largely responsible for that. I could imagine nothing more ludicrous than the attempt to argue for increased production when you had yourself imposed artificial restriction of production. I have opposed control more than once, because I could not understand why inland industries should get their coal at the cost of production. The mere fact that those industries were paying Excess Profits Duty is conclusive evidence that they were not entitled to the benefit of any such bounty. On the other hand, I could not see why we should restrict our exports at a time when we might have built up a reserve for the mining industry from the money derived from those exports. To argue in favour of increased production on the top of these artificial restrictions to which you have superadded a datum line of wages, was more likely to lead to bankruptcy than to prosperity. Increased production is not economic production when it follows artificial restriction and an artificially fixed cost. It has only an economic meaning as assisting me in open competition with my rival. If it has been induced by any form of bribe it leads, not to prosperity, but to bankruptcy. We have that position to-day, and again I say that the Government, in pursuing that policy, did it to humour the Labour leaders of this country; and the direct responsibility for the agony of mind and the injury done to the mining classes of this country will be traced in a very short time by every independent thinking miner to the miners' leaders themselves. I know that that is the mind of many miners in this country at the present moment. Recognising, as I fully recognise, all that unemployment means to the miner, and the havoc that it makes with the happiness of those homes among which I live, I cannot but be very sensible to the appeal to my sympathy. If I had some assurance from the Labour leaders that to-morrow they would go forth and hold up the agony of the moment as a reason why we should repudiate once and for ever this cry of nationalisation; if I could get them, instead of smiling at what is a very straightforward truth, to be sincere enough in their sympathy to repudiate Government interference with industry; if I could get them, in addition, to point out that an industry which was involving, not a profit, but a loss, was an industry in which the wage fund must inevitably suffer—if I found those simple fundamental truths made plain to the workers in the country, I would support the hon. Member in asking for some delay in the decontrol of the coal industry. In the absence of that plain statement from the Labour Benches, what encouragement have we on this side to support this postponement? If decontrol is again postponed, we are simply delaying the agony, and are merely aggravating it. Therefore, while appreciating very fully all that has been said as to what may happen in the way of distress as the result of decontrol, but appreciating on the other hand that postponement is only going to aggravate the distress, I prefer to think that decontrol now will bring us to a condition of reason which we have been too long in reaching, and that, perhaps, at this period of our maximum distress, we have also reached the point of the beginning of an early and speedy recovery.

I am not going to apply my mind to-night to the general principle of control versus decontrol in the wider sense, except to say that I cannot discern the point of those who are constantly saying on the opposite side that we ought to come to an end of decontrol. I could understand that if the Labour party were in office and they were the people who were really responsible for running the country. The statement that decontrol should come to an end is an evidence of one of two things, either that the people who are governing the country at present are not capable of governing it, or that they are too dishonest to govern it. I should not myself accept the latter, but I am quite prepared to accept the former verdict, that the present Government is not capable of running the country. Therefore it is only natural that when they have touched the mines and the railways they are a failure. The form of control that exists to-day would never receive our sanction, because if we had nationalisation tomorrow we should not allow a central office in London to control the mines. A Committee would probably give instructions what coal would be required, but the duty of running individual mines would devolve very largely upon technical and commercial ability coupled with the practical mining ability of the men who were actually engaged in this industry. Up to now nothing of that kind has been done or has been tried. The only thing that we are discussing to-night is this question of Government control, which must be understood to be quite different from the control that we have in mind.

I want to apply myself to one criticism of another character, as to the sanctity of agreements. The right hon. Gentleman who is in charge of the Bill is a very skilful lawyer, and he may have found inside it some particular words that give him the opportunity of saying he is bringing in this Bill for the purpose of decontrollng the mining industry. But whatever defects there may have been in the Act under which mines and mining profits are controlled, there is an impression left upon the mind not only of the workers—it might be pardoned if it was only an impression upon the minds of the workers—but upon the minds of the owners that the Government intended to retain the principle of control until 31st August. This Bill is seeking to break up that agreement which exists between the Government, the coalowners and the workmen that the industry should be controlled until 31st August. We consider that by this action he is placing no validity upon agreements which have been entered into, and which we understand to exist, and is more or less treating them as a scrap of paper and tearing them up. If the Government will do a thing of that kind, we need not be surprised if at some time or other the mining or any other industry, when an agreement has been entered into, and they find it is not to their interest to abide by it, treat it as a scrap of paper. The Government should set an example. If the miners themselves were guilty of treating agreements that they had entered into in the way the Government are treating the miners and the mineowners in this instance, the whole of the British Press and people would be crying out against the miners. If the Government of the day cannot adhere to agreements that they have entered into, they have no right to expect that either workmen or anyone else will adhere to agreements if they do not suit them. That is the example the Government are setting.

This is the worst possible time the Government could have introduced a Bill of this kind. If the Mines Emergency Bill had not been brought in, and they had allowed decontrol to take place at that time, it would have been far better for the industry than to have brought this Bill in now. Trade is in such a deplorable position, and this measure, if it is passed, will involve such great financial difficulties on the mining industry, that it will be almost an impossibility for some industries to carry on. If we were to continue control for three or four months until trade revived, it would then be possible for some of the collieries, which cannot possibly go on if this measure goes through, to get upon their feet again, and gradually assume a normal position, something similar to what existed before the War. But there are districts in Great Britain where, with the present standard of wages and prices, one of two things must happen. The pits must either close or the price of coal must go up or wages must come down. The price of coal must not go up because other industries cannot bear it. It will only mean that we shall have more unemployment, and more industries will have to close down. Therefore we cannot turn to that as an avenue of escape. If we turn to the avenue of reduced wages, does anyone expect that while the cost of living is standing where it stands to-day it is possible to get the miners to quietly acquiesce in a very great reduction of wages, when they know perfectly well that the wages they are receiving are not commensurate in real value to what they were receiving in 1914? The third alternative is that pits will have to close, and then probably the last state will be worse than the first. I believe that can be avoided if the Government will continue to control the industry for three or four months. That will carry us to a period when the trade depression will have passed away and better times will have returned, and it will make it possible, if we are going to decontrol, to decontrol with far less disastrous effects upon the industry than decontrolling to-day would have.

There is another grave point. My right hon. Friend knows that the Government 13 under more or less a moral obligation to see the present wage negotiations through. It was very largely at his instigation and through his good offices that the strike terminated when it did. He used his best endeavours to get the parties to see eye to eye. One of the things that was promised at that time was that if the settlement was accepted on the lines suggested by my right hon. Friend, then between that time and the 31st March the parties should come together for the purpose of arranging an agreement and, if no settlement could be arrived at between the two parties, then the Government themselves were going to step in to see how far they could assist in solving the wage difficulty. If you pass this measure through the House now, how can my right hon. Friend get up and say that we are still in a position to carry out the promise we have made to the workmen and masters that "we will lend our good offices in getting a wage agreement and settlement which is satisfactory to both sides"? He cannot. If there is one thing in the mining industry which is more important than another to-day, it is the settlement of a wage agreement over a long period. Whether that settlement will be finally a national settlement or a district settlement, it is the utmost importance that you should have that settlement. You had before the War began in the area to which I belong, the Midland Federation, covering Yorkshire, Derbyshire, Warwickshire, part of Forth Wales and Lancashire. You had a Conciliation Board of 26 years' operation with never a single strike. There were certain definite principles laid down. The men knew when they were entitled to an increase of wages, and the masters when they were entitled to a reduction of wages. This was automatically arranged without any friction or strike. We want as far as possible, while we have private enterprise, to get back again to a condition of that character, so that wages can be regulated automatically according to some definite principle laid down and accepted. I suggest that the Government themselves are under an obligation by their promise made during the last settlement to assist both sides to arrive at that settlement. If this Bill passes, I fail to see where the Govern ment can assist the carrying out of the promises they have made as far as the wage agreement is concerned.

10.0 P.M.

It has been stated that we are approaching this question purely from the point of view of the miners and the mineowners. There may be a degree of truth in that. I am not going to say that we are not very largely animated with the desire to protect our particular industry, but we are also approaching this question from the point of view of the public. Surely it is to the public interest that the coal trade shall continue to work as amicably as possible, that there shall be as little friction and as few strikes as possible. It has been repeatedly stated in this House that a great deal of the bad trade of to-day lies at the door of the miner for his repetition of stoppages and strikes. Is there a grain of truth in that? It is in the interest of the nation that there shall be as few strikes as possible, and you can only avoid these strikes by a definite wage agreement to which the masters on the one hand and the miners on the other have subscribed. You could not have taken the last 3s. 6d. off the miners' wages quietly and calmly as it has been done had there been no agreement. If the Government without any agreement had come along with the owners and said, "We are going to take 3s. 6d. off your wages," what would have happened? There would have been a strike. But because we have got an agreement we are more honourable to that agreement than the Government are. We accepted it and there has not been a single strike, a single hitch, a single day's work lost. The men have taken that reduction just as they took the advance when it came along because there has been an agreement existing between the two parties. It is to the interest of the British public, as far as the mining industry is concerned, that we should seek to have this wage agreement established between the miners and the owners right away through the British coalfields. We want to get it established nationally, because there are certain advantages in having it nationalised. My hon. Friend's constituents would perhaps have the lowest wages if they had a county settlement. We do not want that. We know that the man in Cumberland who is doing seven hours is doing as much hard work as the man in Nottingham, though he may not get the same amount of coal and the same amount of money. Under a national settlement the district of Nottingham, which has certain physical advantages due to nature, would be able as a right to help other districts, for those districts should never be worked either in the interests of the miner himself or the coalowner, but should be distributed among the nation and they should have something of the physical advantages belonging to that special character. That is why, as far as the public is concerned, they realise that the public will derive the greatest possible advantage if the pooling continues at least for a period.

Let us assume that this Bill goes through, that Cumberland has to stop. It must inevitably follow that as soon as there comes a shortage of coal that the price will go up because those mines are not working and because of the economic laws of supply and demand which my hon. Friend said we ought never to seek to get round or frustrate. I, as a working man, cannot understand them. I cannot understand your abstract laws. What I can understand is that there is nature teeming with her bountiful things with a bountiful land and a huge supply of human labour to apply to all those sources of nature, but your economic laws, that you have made largely in this House, stand between us and the application of that labour.

The hon. Member has accused us on this side of having made economic laws. I wish to know any one economic law for which we are responsible.

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman made them or not, but they have been manufactured by men of the scholastic profession, with which he has been very closely allied in his day. I do not think I need go into that now. The point I was proceeding to make was that it was in the interest of the British public—I am not entering into the question now of control as against decontrol on the larger principle of nationalisation or private enterprise—to postpone this Bill for a period of six months. During that period, when perhaps our trade would have revived, it would be easier to adjust these things than we find it at the present time. This will only disturb the relation- ship that exists. I believe that if there is one thing required in industry to-day more than anything else it is the real spirit of co-operation, it' is esprit de corps. Are you going to get it through a Bill of this character just at this moment? Never mind its underlying virtue as between private enterprise and control, that is not the issue just now. The issue for the moment is, is this the best time to bring in a Bill of this character? Is it likely to contribute to the best relationships between man and man? I submit that it is a very bad time, that you could not have had a worse time, and if I can use my influence with the right hon. Gentleman I should ask him to take his Bill back again until we have settled the wages question. I do not know whether it will be a national settlement or an area settlement, but at any rate it would be better for the passage of a Bill of this character that the wages question should be settled first.

I shall promise the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Robert Home) that what I have to say will be said in so short a time as to leave him an ample margin, I hope, for the answer which we expect him to give to the House before any vote is taken. I would not assert that this House has been engaged in making economic laws, but I do assert that this House constantly is engaged and particularly has been so employed in the past 20 odd years in modifying and in re-making economic laws by fixing wages, hours of work, conditions of service as between man and man by a score of different ways, that is to say, has tried to set up a human standard of conditions of livelihood which men and women could not have enjoyed had they been left to the ordinary mercies and free play of economic laws; and the appeal made from this side of the House to the majority of this House is to continue that necessary human work, and we ask them to reject this Bill and appeal to the Government to withdraw it for the reason that it will be certain to have a very serious and adverse effect upon the conditions of employment and rates of wages if it becomes law. I propose in my few remarks to put a few questions to my right hon. Friend which I am sure he will set himself to answer.

First I would ask the attention of the House to the position of the miner himself, for it is still worth while to look at this problem in its human terms. I assert that there is no more serviceable servant of the State than the average miner. The value of his labour, the dangers of pursuing it in the prosecution of his service, the general conditions of employment, the conditions of hardship inevitably imposed upon him in relation to his ordinary surroundings—these things mark the miner out as a special sufferer in the deepest sense of the term on account of the labour which he must perform. It is registered as the most dangerous occupation, and it means, of course, that the ordinary natural habits of the masses of the people are unknown very largely day by day and week by week by the average miner. It is true that recently the miner to some extent has come near his own, but he has not got that as the gift of Parliament. He has got it by sheer force of his organisation, by, I will say, the leadership and guidance of the men of very great courage and ability who have led the miners in the various miners' trade unions, and in being able, incidentally, to take advantage, as the miner had the right to take advantage of the special market conditions which gave him the opportunity to raise his standard of living. It is not long ago since this House recognised the miner as standing in such a special case that the most extraordinary, the most novel device of taxation was unanimously agreed to in this House, namely, that taxation of imposing, I believe, a penny burden on each ton of coal raised in order that a fund might be at the service of the miner to improve his housing and domestic conditions. I ask the Members of this House who either live in or near, or who have been through a mining constituency or district, to think of the vote they give on this question to-night in terms of the miners' life. If they were absolutely free to decide this question upon that basis I would have no doubt whatever of what the verdict would be. It was asserted by the right hon. Gentleman who submitted this Bill to the House that control as such was a most abominable thing, and he alleged that whilst that device might be condoned or defended in wartime, it could not be defended in times of peace. On the con- trary, I assert that control wisely applied, skilfully exercised, can be employed in the service of the State for the benefit of the community in a manner to result for the welfare of the nation, and must frequently be employed if self-interest and private interest is to be curbed. Is it then the confession of the Government that it has so little skill that men cannot be found for such work of organisation and supervision as a trade like this specially lends itself to? It is practically a local industry in the sense that it is concentrated in nine or ten special centres of the kingdom, and it lends itself in a very special degree to that particular kind of supervision and control which a competent Department could easily exercise for the benefit of the nation as against the special advantage of particular individuals. If that argument carries no weight, I suggest that other one, that the argument that it is wise to control in times of war is sound in large part now, because we are still living in the conditions of war. Economically we are still in the war zone. Trade is not normal. The general conditions and relations as between employer and employed are not as they were prior to the War. That has been a subject so pressed that I am sure my right hon. Friend (Sir R. Horne) will not evade it. Is it or is it not true that economically conditions of war are still left with us in such a degree as not to justify the taking off of control at the present time? The case in relation to wages and employment was especially stressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Ince (Mr. Walsh), who made a most powerful and eloquent appeal to the Government to take what, I think, is the wisest step, and the safe step, which alone can be taken upon this question. I fear my right hon. Friend was not in the House at the time. My hon. Friend said that when you have anything like normal economic conditions the Government might be justified in producing a Bill of this kind, but that to-day this proposal becomes the cause of quarrel between the employer and the employed. The Government should beware. Its purpose should be that of peacemaker, and it should take no step which in itself will be a definite cause of quarrel. It has been asserted by those who are qualified to know that a Bill like this, pressed into law, and taking effect as from 31st March this year, is certain to have the effect of producing serious industrial trouble as between employer and employed.

It was asserted by the right hon. Gentleman who moved the Second Reading of the Bill that control had certain effects upon output, and that nationalisation had a most evil effect upon output. I am not going deeply into that question, but I ask his attention to this fact, that when the miners put forward their programme to the country and to the Labour conferences in favour of nationalisation, and when they began their campaign in the country in favour of nationalisation, their resolutions have always contained the specific object of securing increased output of coal by that means. It is their firm conviction that nationalisation, instead of having the effect of diminishing output, would have the contrary effect of so increasing efficiency in the working of the mines and so increasing coal production as to give a larger yield of the article. Many other arguments were used by the right hon. Gentleman, but I will trouble the House only with one, and it is a very material point on which we are entitled to an answer. Is this Bill or is it not a breach of faith with the miners and the coalowners' Association, and with the country, all of whom have been led to believe by the existing law, and especially by statements which we understand were made in conferences, that the state of things that now exist would continue until 31st August. The right hon. Gentleman quoted as a sufficient answer to that what was said in another place by some Noble Lord who spoke on behalf of the Government, and who in an argument, evidently designed to induce Noble Lords to carry the Bill in another place, spoke of the possibility of the law not being continued until 31st August. That quotation is not a sufficient answer. The outstanding feature of the argument is not the qualifying words of the argument but the actual date used even in the argument itself and the date which still forms part of the law.

I ask for a definite statement of what the Government view is, if they have a settled view, as to the effect of this Bill upon employment—a problem daily growing worse, a problem, in our judgment, likely to go from worse to worse still as a result of this Bill if it becomes law. It is a grave adventure for the Government to make a contribution by Statute or by any other step towards further increasing the privations of unemployment and the large number of men out of work. The miners are entitled to press a second question: What is to be the effect of this Bill on wages? Speaker after speaker has painted a picture, which I believe to be true, that in the conditions which are prevailing it is certain that many of the pits cannot continue if this Bill becomes law unless wages are enormously reduced. Is it to be the policy of the Government, not merely to create a condition of great unemployment, but to place an instrument in the hands of employers enabling them to impose great reductions of wages? The fact that certain mines are not capable of being worked as economically as other mines is no reason in itself for throwing the men in those less productive mines upon the mercy of the large employers, who will have the power of imposing great reductions upon their workmen. Inevitably the effect of all this trend of wage reduction upon miners will be to react upon other trades, for as soon as one section of industry, especially in a mining area, has its standard of earning power reduced, employers will take heart and follow the bad example which others have set, and wages will reduce trade by trade and man by man.

The third point is this: Is it not a breach of faith as between the Government and the three other partners, the public, the employers, and the employed? I am certain that my right hon. Friend would not touch a Bill of this kind if he thought that it was a breach of faith. Therefore, I ask him to pay close attention to the repeated arguments which have been addressed not merely from the miners' representatives in this House but from others. The hon. Baronet the Member for St. Ives (Sir C. Cory) came very near asserting that this Bill was not keeping faith with the Mineowners' Association. Therefore, from all sides we have the declaration that on this occasion, if on no other, the Government is taking this step, which will further reduce the national faith in Parliament and further lessen the respect in which the mass of the population should hold our Ministers. I would add a word of appeal to those which have already been uttered to consider carefully the invitation to postpone this measure. We grant that there may be a time, perhaps, not in the remote future—it may be in the near future—when economic conditions with the general labour market and the state of trade will have so recovered as to justify the Government in bringing forward this Bill. But this is the wrong time, and if we cannot get withdrawal of the Bill, I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should seriously consider the advisability of postponement, in the hope of bringing together the two parties, employers and employed, to see whether they cannot make a way out of a difficulty which, I am certain, this Bill will in no way amend.

I am not sure that this Debate, though it has been very interesting, has raised any questions which require anything in the nature of an extended reply. I agree that there are several points which call for notice, but the question has been the subject of Debate in this House so often that a very short speech should be sufficient now to deal with the various considerations raised. I agree, of course, with everything that has been said as to the importance of the question. We are dealing with a trade whose success and prosperity form the foundation of the success and prosperity of every other industry of the country. Accordingly, I readily admit that you cannot deal in any large way with the coal trade without seriously affecting every other trade. I should like also to make my tribute to the arduous calling of the miner, and I readily assent to the view that every consideration should be given to the character of his work and its importance. But we have to deal now with a question at which we must look on broad lines, having regard to the broad issues involved. On the general subject of decontrol, I do not think there is very much difference of opinion in the House. Control of an industry is in itself a bad thing, and it forms nothing but an impediment to the success of an industry. There is no better proof of that fact than that the experience of Government control has convinced even the most socialistic opinion in this country that whatever form of nationalisation you have, you should under no circumstances commit any industry to bureaucratic control. That opinion has been expressed by an hon. Member opposite to-night, and it has been stated in very explicit terms by a very careful writer in the person of Mr. Frank Hodges.

Accordingly, I do not think anyone would be prepared to stand up in this House and support a continuance of the ordinary form of Government or bureaucratic control. So far from the coal industry being one of those that is easily dealt with, I know of none in which the act of supervision or control is more difficult to exercise. One of the things we have suffered from during control has been that many things have been done, both by the coalowner and the miner, which under ordinary circumstances would never have passed efficient control of the mines. Those who are interested in mines know that I have not exaggerated by the slightest hair's breadth in the statement which I have just made. I have not heard anything said to-night in deprecation of getting rid of the control of prices and distribution of the commodity, which formed the real subjects of control. Control was exercised in this country because we could not afford to have too high prices charged at a time when there was a shortage of the commodity, and we had to insist on providing our own people with coal at reasonable prices—reasonable, that is, in relation to the general prices then ruling in the world. Further, we had to see that a sufficient supply of coal was kept in this country, and therefore we had to restrict export at a time when far too much of our supply would have been abstracted by foreign countries owing to the shortage of coal in the world. That position, of course, could have been retrieved by an increased production. If we had had the production in 1919 that we had before the War, we should have required none of these controls, but, unfortunately, the production was greatly depleted, and we have had proof in the last year that the coal industry could have provided us with the increased production we desired.

At the present time the demand is insufficient to create any risk with regard to export, nor are the prices which are being paid for coal for export such as will allow any differentiation from the home price, and therefore both the stable reasons for keeping on the control have gone. Why should we keep up any other form of control? Financial control was only necessary because of the control of prices and export. If you said that you were going to control prices, you had at once to guarantee the owner a certain profit; that is perfectly clear. Again, if you were going to control profit, you had to guarantee the miner his wages; that again is perfectly clear. And if you had to fix wages, you had to enable the less lucrative collieries, for whom you forced a certain grade of wages, to carry on. How could you afford to let them carry on under these circumstances? Only by making the coal trade as a whole supply what was necessary to do so. But now, when you cease to control prices and distribution, there is no longer any foundation for controlling these other matters. Why, then, should control be continued today?

It is said that this is the wrong time. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottinghamshire put that as the only question: Is this the right time for decontrol or not? I should like to remind the House that by previous legislation control would have come to an end automatically on the 31st August last year, and all the things which to-day are being foreshadowed would equally have happened after decontrol on the 31st August last year. The miners' representatives in this House boycotted the Committee on the Bill which was proposing to continue the coal control for another year, so little did they think then of the necessity for continuing the control. The coalowners were anxious that control should cease at the time previous legislation had arranged. They deprecated any further continuance of it, and if it was to be continued, they said it should not be continued after 31st March. If any trouble is to arise to-day, at least it may be said that we have done both sides a good turn. A slump in price would equally have occurred if control had been taken off last August, and look at the benefit the coal industry to-day is getting from the decision of the Government at that time! Why, pits would have been unable to continue but for the subsidies of the Government. Workmen would have been out of employment, if they are going out of employment at all, far sooner under those circumstances than they will do now, and employers are having a guarantee of nine- tenths of the pre-War standard profit down to 31st March, when they would have been languishing without any profits at all. Accordingly, I think I am entitled to say that, whether you regard us in this matter as stupid or beneficent, it is at least to the Government that you owe these privileges.

What would be the effect of continuing the control, as we have been asked to do by several of the speakers to-night? That we should go on to guarantee the owners their profits. We should equally require, I imagine, under those circumstances, to guarantee the miners their wages; that is to say, we should go on, as we are now, steadily losing over £1,000,000 per week in the coal industry, subsidising, I suppose, both the owners and the miners, or else, as an alternative, raising the price of coal upon our already very much depressed industries. What is the situation to-day? We lost during the month of January something like £5,000,000. My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore says that that will be wiped out by the reduction of wages of 3s. 6d. per shift. What he failed to realise—I am not surprised, because, even with all his knowledge of figures, it is sometimes a little difficult to see all that is involved in the White Paper—but what he failed to recognise was that the £5,000,000 lost in January is only the working loss; it does not include what the Government is bound to pay in guaranteeing the coal-owners their profits.

I distinctly stated that, but the profits are only £6,750,000 for three months, and I said that the 3s. 6d. would more than wipe out the deficit on the January month.

I am not disputing the hon. Member's figures, but only his conclusions. Putting the working loss, roughly, at £5,000,000, and the guarantee at £2,250,000 for the month, you arrive at a net loss of £7,250,000. The amount of the 3s. 6d. wage is £4,250,000, so that there is a gap of £3,000,000 still to be made up. But we have an addition to this. The price of coal has decreased since the month of January by a very con- siderable amount. There will be a further loss of something like £2,000,000 in the month of February, and so you have to make up the £3,000,000 and a further £2,000,000. Accordingly the Secretary for Mines was quite right in saying that we anticipate a loss of £5,000,000 a month. Is it really to be said that the Government is to carry on the coal mining industry under these circumstances, making a steady loss unless they place the burden on the consumer with a higher price? That is unthinkable.

I turn now to one of the questions which my right hon. Friend (Mr. Clynes) asked as to whether this is a breach of faith. I answer without any hesitation that there is no breach of faith. I have already pointed out the attitude of the miners and the coalowners upon this matter when we proposed to continue the control, and I think under those circumstances it is somewhat remarkable for either of those two bodies of opinion to accuse us of a breach of faith. It never was asserted that control was to continue until the 31st of August, and the Act makes it plain that an earlier decontrol was contemplated. It provided that the Board of Trade must give directions for regulating the export and the pithead prices, and that while any such directions should be operative it should be lawful to give directions as to the wages to be paid in coal mines and the distribution of profits. I think that shows that it was only during the continuation of the direction of prices and export that there was to be any further financial control at all.

The Act also provided that immediately an Order should be made of a particular character, the Coal Emergency Act should come to an end and control would also come to an end at the same time. I know that the Order must provide for some method of distribution, but not for any particular period of time, and you could provide, if necessary, for a period of one month and thus bring the whole Act to an end. If any hon. Member will read my speech in introducing the Ministry of Mines Act, he will find that I stated that as soon as we got back to a condition in which there was no appreciable difference between the export price of coal and the inland price there would be no need to regulate the distribution and control would cease. I made it perfectly explicit that control would cease as soon as we got into a position in which the trade could be worked without it. That is my answer to the right hon. Gentleman upon the question of a breach of faith. It is said that in some way the Government has committed itself to the miners of the country that they shall continue to receive the war wage until the cost of living falls below a certain level. I have been looking at the agreement under which war wages were granted and I can find nothing which suggests that the Government is bound to keep on control in order to regulate wages. The cost of living agreement obviously depends for its powers of continuance on control: as soon as control ceases there is no longer any authority in the Government to say what wages shall be paid.

My hon. Friend really must Wait to hear what I have to say on the subject. Perhaps I had better say it at once.[ Interruption. ] There is no legal obligation on the owners to pay the wages what the Government gave instructions should be paid during the period of control, but that does not necessarily mean that wages will go down to any particular level. [ Interruption ]

Hon. Members have had nine speakers on their side who have been listened to without interruption. They must really exercise a little self-restraint.

Let me remind hon. Members that wages were raised long before there was any War and long before there was any Government control. How do other people come to an agreement about wages? [An HON. MEMBER: "We had no Peace Treaty then! "] It would seem to be suggested by those who represent the miners' industry that they have suddenly become so weak and powerless that they must submit to anything which is imposed on them by anybody. [An HON. MEMBER: "Our men are starving!"]

Hon. Members must know very well that whenever decontrol takes place the same question will have to be considered. There must come a period at which they will be thrown back on their own resources to arrange their wage system, and if that is so, is the Miners' Federation really going to say that they are incapable of negotiating with the employers. Every other trade has to make its own wage agreement, and I never heard that the Miners' Federation were a weak trade union. I thought they were one of the strongest. They have, in point of fact, during the last five months, been engaged in attempts to make some arrangements with regard to their wage. I think hon. Members thoroughly well understand that because control ceases it does not mean that their wages necessarily come down to the pre-War level. No one supposes that. The hon. Member for Ogmore and other hon. Members have referred to the fact that notices are being issued by certain colliery owners in various parts of the country as to the termination of employment, but the meaning of that is perfectly well understood, I should imagine, even by those who complain about it.

The whole point is this, that before the termination of control the Government is still the person giving directions. The owner is not responsible for those directions, though he is paying the wages. Accordingly, he gives notice, so far as the Government instructions are concerned that they come to an end on 31st March, when control ceases. That does not mean that there is no new arrangement to be put in its place, or that the men are to be deprived of employment on 1st April. The whole point is this, and this would be inevitable whenever control ceases, that you have to arrange before the date on which decontrol takes place the basis on which your employment is to be terminated, and I am quite sure that the miners throughout the country perfectly well understand that does not mean the termination of their employment. It has been said that we ought to have given more time; that if only we had given more time agreements would be arrived at between now and 31st August. Is there any real foundation for that complaint? The coal miners and the Miners' Federation have had nearly five months in which to have come to a conclusion upon this matter. The Miners' Federation even suggested that they could do it in two months, and they wanted the period within which the agreement was to be come to to be limited to 1st January of the present year. Just as always happens, however, when people have a considerable tract of time in front of them, they were never approaching the real crux of the problem. They were dealing with all kinds of things—these were important enough, no doubt, but they were not the real subject of the controversy. The hon. Member for Ogmore brought it out clearly this afternoon. He said the miners will never be satisfied with any system that does not create a pooling arrangement by which those pits which cannot pay their way shall be paid for by those which can. If that really is to be put forward as an absolute essential of any agreement, I am perfectly certain there is no hope of your agreement before the 31st of August any more than by the 31st of March. I perfectly understand that those who believe in nationalisation are very unwilling to see disappear into the limbo of forgetfulness a system which has operated during the War, and which has all the disadvantages of nationalism and none of its advantages. Let me show what it means. If you have a system of private ownership, it is perfectly obvious that you are not going to get one private owner to embark his capital for the benefit of somebody else who does not manage his business as well. If you once imposed that position on him, he would no longer take any interest in how his business was managed. He would say, "I am not going to make money and to toil in order that somebody else, who does not pay any attention to his business and has not got nearly as much skill as my people have, may get the benefits of the profits I make." Under a Government system the Government might compel active work in any part of that coalfield for the benefit of the country, but as long as you have an individualistic system it is impossible to arrive at success. I would suggest to my hon. Friends opposite that along that road there is not very much likelihood of a fruitful result. I do not at all despair—

Something has been said about a national system of fixing wages. I think that that is not beyond hope. I can quite well imagine that you might arrive at a system whereby a standard should be arrived at in all districts. I think it would be possible to arrange that the relationship of wages to profits should be determined according to a system uniform throughout the country, and that percentages should be adopted according to agreed standards upon some system of which you approve for every district. That, I suggest to my hon. Friends opposite, is a way of arriving at a national system of coal mines in this country. But to prolong the subsidising of pits unskilfully managed by those that are most skilfully managed, or the helping of those which are less lucrative by those which are capable of making large profits, is not a hopeful solution, and I think it is well that that should be understood. I am sure that, if this matter is entered into with good will an agreement can be arrived at. I would ask both the coalowners and the miners to remember that this is a time of depression, in which every trade in the country is carrying on under a very severe burden, and under very great difficulties. The coal industry cannot expect to be the only industry which is going to be free from those difficulties and troubles. Therefore, I would say to both sides that no extreme demand should be made upon either, and that each should recognise the difficulties of the other. Approaching the question, in these circumstances, with a feeling of mutual good will, I am certain that a solution can be arrived at. I venture to support this Bill as one of the means by which we shall return to normal conditions, under which the whole trade and industry of this country will have a chance of again attaining to success and prosperity.

Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 277; Noes, 72.

Division No. 22]

AYES.

[10.49 p.m.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C.

Gardiner, James

Moles, Thomas

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Molson, Major John Elsdale

Ainsworth, Captain Charles

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M.

Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S.

Glyn, Major Ralph

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Armitage, Robert

Gould, James C.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C

Astor, Viscountess

Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)

Morden, Lieut.-Col. W. Grant

Atkey, A. R.

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Morris, Richard

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Gregory, Holman

Morrison, Hugh

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Greig, Colonel James William

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Gretton, Colonel John

Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen)

Barlow, Sir Montague

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh)

Barnett, Major R. W.

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Nall, Major Joseph

Barnston, Major Harry

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Neal, Arthur

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Hailwood, Augustine

Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W.D'by)

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

Nield, Sir Herbert

Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h)

Hannon, P. J.

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W.

Betterton, Henry B.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Parker, James

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool)

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Boles, Lieut.-Colonel D. F.

Hickman, Brig. General Thomas E.

Percy, Charles

Borwick, Major G. O.

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Perkins, Walter Frank

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Hills, Major John Waller

Perring, William George

Brassey, Major H. L. C.

Hinds, John

Pickering, Lieut.-Colonel Emil W.

Breese, Major Charles E.

Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

Pollock, Sir Ernest M.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Prescott, Major W. H.

Brown, Captain D. C.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Bruton, Sir James

Hood, Joseph

Purchase, H. G.

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

Rae, H. Norman

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Randles, Sir John S.

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Hopkins, John W. W.

Rankin, Captain James S.

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Raper, A. Baldwin

Carew, Charles Robert S.

Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

Ratcliffe, Henry Butler

Carr, W. Theodore

Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Casey, T. W.

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Reid, D. D.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)

Hunter-Weston, Lieut-Gen. Sir A. G.

Remnant, Sir James

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

Hurd, Percy A.

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W.

Jephcott, A. R.

Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Strettord)

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Johnson, Sir Stanley

Rodger, A. K.

Clough, Robert

Johnstone, Joseph

Rothschild, Lionel de

Coats, Sir Stuart

Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Roundel, Colonel R. F.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)

Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill)

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Cory, Sir C. J. (Cornwall, St. Ives)

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Lianelly)

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

Seddon, J. A.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Kidd, James

Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Curzon, Commander Viscount

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)

Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

Knight, Major E. A. (Kidderminster)

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)

Stanier, Captain Sir Beville

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Starkey, Captain John R.

Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)

Lindsay, William Arthur

Steel, Major S. Strang

Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

Lister, Sir R. Ashton

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry

Lloyd, George Butler

Stewart, Gershom

Doyle, N. Grattan

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Sturrock, J. Leng

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Sugden, W. H.

Edgar, Clifford B.

Lorden, John William

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Lort-Williams, J.

Sutherland, Sir William

Elveden, Viscount

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Lowther, Col. Claude (Lancaster)

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

Lynn, R. J.

Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

Falcon, Captain Michael

Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)

Thomas-Stanford, Charles

Falle, Major Sir Bertram G.

M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Fildes, Henry

McMicking, Major Gilbert

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill)

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Thorpe, Captain John Henry

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Macquisten, F. A.

Townley, Maximilian G.

Foreman, Sir Henry

Manville, Edward

Turton, E. R.

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Vickers, Douglas

France, Gerald Ashburner

Matthews, David

Waddington, R.

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Meysey-Thompson, Lieut.-Col. E. C.

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Middlebrook, Sir William

Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

Ganzoni, Captain Sir F. J. C

Mitchell, William Lane

Waring, Major Walter

Warren, Lieut.-Col. Sir Alfred H.

Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato

Watson, Captain John Bertrand

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Yeo, Sir Alfred William

Weston, Colonel John W.

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich)

Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H.

Wilson, Lieut.-Col. M. J. (Richmond)

Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth)

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Wilson-Fox, Henry

Younger, Sir George

Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

Winterton, Earl

Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

Wise, Frederick

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward.

Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill-(High Peak)

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

Hartshorn, Vernon

Robertson, John

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Hayday, Arthur

Royce, William Stapleton

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hayward, Major Evan

Sexton, James

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Hirst, G. H.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Simm, M. T.

Bromfield, William

Hogge, James Myles

Sitch, Charles H.

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Holmes, J. Stanley

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Cairns, John

Irving, Dan

Spencer, George A.

Cape, Thomas

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Spoor, B. G.

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Swan, J. E.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

Kenyon, Barnet

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Lawson, John J.

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Lunn, William

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Tootill, Robert

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester)

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)

Finney, Samuel

Maddocks, Henry

Wedgwood, Colonel J. C.

Galbraith, Samuel

Mills, John Edmund

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Glanville, Harold James

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Wignall, James

Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Myers, Thomas

Williams, John (Glamorgan, Gower)

Grundy, T. W.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Rendall, Athelstan

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Hancock, John George

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. T. Shaw.

Bill read a Second time.

Motion made, and Question put, "That

the Bill be committed to a Committee of the Whole House."—[ Mr. Thomas. ]

The House divide: Ayes, 69; Noes, 275.

Division No. 23.]

AYES.

[11.10 p.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. F. D.

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

Hancock, John George

Robertson, John

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Hartshorn, Vernon

Royce, William Stapleton

Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

Hayday, Arthur

Sexton, James

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hayward, Major Evan

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hirst, G. H.

Sitch, Charles H.

Bromfield, William

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Hogge, James Myles

Spencer, George A.

Cairns, John

Holmes, J. Stanley

Spoor, B. G.

Cape, Thomas

Irving, Dan

Swan, J. E.

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Kenyon, Barnet

Tootill, Robert

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Lawson, John J.

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lunn, William

Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)

Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Wedgwood, Colonel J. C.

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Finney, Samuel

Mills, John Edmund

Wignall, James

Galbraith, Samuel

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Williams, John (Glamorgan, Gower)

Glanville, Harold James

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness and Ross)

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

Myers, Thomas

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Grundy, T. W.

Raffan, Peter Wilson

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Rendall, Athelstan

Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. T. Shaw.

NOES.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C.

Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h)

Ainsworth, Captain Charles

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Betterton, Henry B.

Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S.

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Barlow, Sir Montague

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Armitage, Robert

Barnett, Major R. W.

Boles, Lieut.-Colonel D. F.

Astor, Viscountess

Barnston, Major Harry

Borwick, Major G. O.

Atkey, A. R.

Bell, Lieut. Co W C. H. (Devizes)

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Prescott, Major W. H.

Brassey, Major H. L. C.

Hood, Joseph

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Breese, Major Charles E.

Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

Purchase, H. G.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Rae, H. Norman

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Hopkins, John W. W.

Randles, Sir John S.

Brown, Captain D. C.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Rankin, Captain James S.

Bruton, Sir James

Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildlord)

Raper, A. Baldwin

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hilihead)

Ratcliffe, Henry Butler

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Remnant, Sir James

Carew, Charles Robert S.

Hunter-Weston, Lieut-Gen. Sir A. G.

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Carr, W. Theodore

Hurd, Percy A.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Casey, T. W.

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)

Jephcott, A. R.

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)

Jesson, C.

Rodger, A. K.

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Rothschild, Lionel de

Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W.

Johnson, Sir Stanley

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Johnstone, Joseph

Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill)

Clough, Robert

Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Coats, Sir Stuart

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool Exchange)

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

Colvin, Lieut.-Colonel Richard Beale

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Cory, Sir C. J. (Cornwall, St. Ives)

Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)

Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

Kidd, James

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Stanier, Captain Sir Beville

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Knight, Major E. A. (Kidderminster)

Starkey, Captain John R.

Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)

Steel, Major S. Strang

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C)

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Stewart, Gershom

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Lindsay, William Arthur

Sturrock, J. Leng

Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)

Lister, Sir R. Ashton

Sugden, W. H.

Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry

Lloyd, George Butler

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Sutherland, Sir William

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield)

Edgar, Clifford B.

Lorden, John William

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Lort-Williams, J.

Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

Elveden, Viscount

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Thomas-Stanford, Charles

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

Lowther, Col. Claude (Lancaster)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Falcon, Captain Michael

Lynn, R. J.

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Falle, Major Sir Bertram G.

Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill)

Fildes, Henry

McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester)

Thorpe, Captain John Henry

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)

Townley, Maximilian G.

Ford, Patrick Johnston

M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

Turton, E. R.

Foreman, Sir Henry

McMicking, Major Gilbert

Vickers, Douglas

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Waddington, R.

France, Gerald Ashburner

Macquisten, F. A.

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Manville, Edward

Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Waring, Major Walter

Ganzoni, Captain Sir F. J. C.

Matthews, David

Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

Gardiner, James

Meysey-Thompson, Lieut.-Col. E. C.

Warren, Lieut.-Col. Sir Alfred H.

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Mitchell, William Lane

Watson, Captain John Bertrand

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

Moles, Thomas

Weston, Colonel John W.

Glyn, Major Ralph

Molson, Major John Elsdale

Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H.

Goff, Sir R. Park

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M.

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Gould, James C.

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Morden, Lieut.-Col. W. Grant

Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

Gregory, Holman

Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

Greig, Colonel James William

Morrison, Hugh

Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

Gretton, Colonel John

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen)

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh)

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Nall, Major Joseph

Wilson, Lieut.-Col. M. J. (Richmond)

Hailwood, Augustine.

Neal, Arthur

Wilson-Fox, Henry

Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W.D'by)

Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)

Winterton, Earl

Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Wise, Frederick

Hannon, P. J.

Nield, Sir Herbert

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W.

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill-(High Peak)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Parker, James

Yeo, Sir Alfred William

Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool)

Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich)

Hickman, Brig. General Thomas E.

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth)

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Percy, Charles

Younger, sir George

Hills, Major John Waller

Perkins, Walter Frank

Hinds, John

Perring, William George

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

Pickering, Lieut.-Colonel Emil W.

Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward.

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Pollock, Sir Ernest M.

Bill committed to a Standing Committee.

Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Bill

Considered in Committee.

[Sir EDWARD CORNWALL in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Powers with respect to the taking of evidence, etc., before certain tribunals of inquiry.)

(1) Where, in pursuance of a Resolution passed by, or an undertaking given by a Minister of the Crown to, either House of Parliament, a tribunal (other than a Committee of either House) is established for inquiring into a definite matter of urgent public importance, and it appears expedient that the tribunal should be empowered to take evidence on oath, to enforce the attendance of witnesses, and compel the production of documents, the instrument by which the tribunal is appointed or any instrument supplemental thereto may provide that this Act shall apply, and in such case the tribunal shall have all such powers, rights, and privileges as are vested in the High Court (or in Scotland the Court of Session) or a judge thereof on the occasion of an action in respect of the following matters:—

( a ) the enforcing the attendance of witnesses and examining them on oath, affirmation, or otherwise, and the issuing of a commission or request to examine witnesses abroad;

( b ) the compelling the production of documents;

( c ) the punishing persons guilty of contempt;

and a summons signed by one or more of the members of the tribunal may be substituted for and shall be equivalent to any formal process capable of being issued in any action for enforcing the attendance of witnesses and compelling the production of documents.

(2) A warrant of committal to prison issued for the purpose of enforcing the powers conferred by this Section shall be signed by one or more of the members of the tribunal, and shall specify the prison to which the offender is to be committed, but shall not authorise the imprisonment of an offender for a period exceeding three months.

(3) A witness before any such tribunal shall be entitled to the same immunities and privileges as if he were a witness before a superior court of justice.

When this matter was last before the House it was arranged that we should not take up time by proposing Amendments, but that the matter should be settled by conference. We have had an opportunity of exchanging views to-day with the Attorney-General, and I understand that he will probably be able to make a suggestion which will get rid of the Amendment standing in my name on the Paper.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words

"or an undertaking given by a Minister of the Crown to."

The effect of this Amendment would be that the tribunal could only be set up by a Resolution of this House. That would take away the greater part of the objection which I expressed last night.

I have had an opportunity of conferring with hon. and learned Members who are specially interested in this Bill, and I should like with the greatest sincerity to thank them for the courtesy, kindness and consideration with which they have discussed the matter with me. I think that the major part of their objections to this Bill will be got rid of when I say that I accept this Amendment. I may add that the reason why this particular alternative was inserted in the Bill was because, as it happened in the course of events the other night, no Resolution was taken, but an undertaking was given. Therefore a Resolution will be necessary, and I am sure that it is the sense of the House that, as a Resolution will be necessary for the purposes of this particular inquiry, it will be passed without any discussion, and that there will be no consumption of Parliamentary time.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2.—(Powers of tribunals as to exclusion of public and granting right of audience.)

Any tribunal to which this Act is so applied as aforesaid shall have power—

( a ) to allow or refuse to allow the public or any portion of the public to be present at any of the proceedings of the tribunal;

( b ) to authorise the representation before them of any person appearing to them to be interested to be by counsel or solicitor or otherwise, or to refuse to allow such representation.

I beg to move to leave out paragraph ( a ).

The power to exclude the public granted by this paragraph seems to me to be a most undesirable power to give to a body of this kind. We have had quite enough injury done to our administration in Ireland and elsewhere by secret proceedings of military and other tribunals. Only re- cently Mr. Justice Darling said strongly, in regard to incest cases, that there ought to be power to hear them in public. It is contrary to the whole trend of modern opinion to hold inquiries in private. The general public ought to know what is going on.

In my experience the House has always adhered most strictly to any arrangement made, even when the Members were not present. Last night the understanding most clearly was that unless the Bill, with agreed Amendments, was accepted, it would have to be dropped. I am sure the Committee would be very much disappointed if that course were taken.

Amendment negatived.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3 ( Short Title ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported.

As amended, considered; read the Third time, and passed.

Supply

REPORT [7TH MARCH].

Civil Services and Revenue Departments Supplementary Estimates, 1920–21

Class III

Resolution reported,

"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,418,700, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Expenses of the Royal Irish Constabulary."

Resolution read a Second time.

Motion made, and Question, proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

This Vote was taken in Committee yesterday and by agreement the discussion was very wide. In fact the whole Irish problem was reviewed. This is an Estimate for a large sum of money and there has been no detailed, questioning of the Minister on the subject. There are one or questions I wish to ask regarding administration. This is practically a new ser- vice. It is the money for the Royal Irish Constabulary. Hon. Members will see on page 25 of the Supplementary Estimates that a large sum is required for transport. Questions have been continually raised with regard to armoured cars and the protection of lorries. Everyone agrees that if these cadets are to be transported about in motor lorries, the lorries should be protected, and I gather that the Government in Ireland have made some progress at any rate with putting wire net protection on the lorries, the idea being apparently to keep out bombs. Obviously, however, the wire net does not keep out bullets, and I would like to ask whether this is only a temporary measure, or whether the provision of a cage for these lorries is supposed to be sufficient. An Irish woman was taken prisoner the other day, and being an Irishwoman and therefore irrepressible, she taunted her captors as follows. She said: "The Boers drove you into khaki, the Germans drove you into steel helmets, but it has taken the Sinn Feiners to put you into cages." I would like to know if this is a permanent arrangement, or whether they are simply being provided until armour plate is available. While our men are there, I wish to see their lives preserved, and I hope I need hardly say that I abhor their murder as vehemently as anyone in this House.

Having said that, I want to ask a few questions in regard to their conduct. Last night the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) referred to the question of torture. I am not going into details, but I can, if challenged, quote chapter and verse of allegations in writing of the torture of prisoners; but I do not want to harry the House unless I am challenged. The Chief Secretary, who no doubt had not had sufficient notice that the matter was going to be raised, interrupted the Noble Lord, and said that he could say that he had no knowledge of torture being inflicted on prisoners, or what corresponds to torture, playing on their nerves, frightening them, carrying out what our American friends call "the third degree," putting a man up against a wall without a bandage on his eyes and firing at him with blank rifle cartridges. That cannot be defended as a means of extracting information, nor can keeping prisoners without food. I have a case of a man who was kept for 36 hours without adequate clothing in a stone courtyard, and without food, and was told he would be starved to death if he did not give certain information. I send all these things as a matter of course to the Chief Secretary. I do not know that I do much good by it, but I am sure he does his best with the cases that I send him. The right hon. Gentleman says that to his knowledge these things are not done, but to my knowledge there is a strong primâ facie case that methods of extracting information from prisoners in Ireland are indulged in by the Auxiliary Police which I do not think any hon. Member would have the temerity to defend on the floor of this House, and I submit that it is not sufficient for the right hon. Gentleman to say he has no knowledge of these things. He must be able to assure us that the most rigid and searching inquiry will be made into these allegations, and that a real assurance can be given, with all the force of a Minister's words to the House, that this sort of thing is prevented, that there is no toleration of methods of extracting information from men and, I am sorry to say, from women. There is no physical torture of women, but I have cases of husbands being maltreated in the sight of their wives, with the object of extorting information from the wives. We want more than the Chief Secretary saying that he has no knowledge. That is not nearly enough for a matter of this gravity. It is a matter which hits at the very root of our national honour, and I respectfully beg the learned Attorney-General to make instant and close inquiries so as to be able to tell the House definitely whether these things are true, and whether steps are being taken to prevent them.

My second point is this: My impression, from studying a good deal of evidence is that, although the Chief Secretary declared last night that the Government were taking every possible step to restore discipline to a state that would satisfy the House, I want to know whether the Government are really taking drastic steps to punish guilty persons. In all quarters of the House last night the sentiment was expressed that discipline must be restored where it has been relaxed in the forces in Ireland. I am not in any way accusing the forces in general, but there have been far too many cases of looting and stealing, and extracting money at the point of the revolver. Whereas we hear occasionally of the arrest of cadets who do these things, we never hear of their punishment, but, on the other hand, we occasionally hear of these men being returned to duty, and apparently being at large. A case of that sort—not exactly of looting—is the case of Cadet Hart, who murdered Canon Magner and a farmer named Crowley. I have a letter from a responsible person, in a good position in Ireland, not a Sinn Feiner, stating that this Cadet Hart is having the time of his life in the barracks at Dublin. I do not accept it; I ask if it is true. After all, it is what is believed in Ireland. It is not a matter of whether I believe it or not, but whether it is believed in Ireland. We eventually want peace in that country, and this sort of thing is being bandied about, apparently, in Ireland as being true. I ask if it is true. In other words my specific question is this: Is Cadet Hart in a lunatic asylum? Is he under restraint, or is he, as my informant says, having the time of his life in barracks?. On the 20th September a Black and Tan was arrested for killing two young men named Harnett and Healy. I have not heard whether he has been tried or punished in any way. I believe this Black and Tan declared that these two men did not salute him, and he therefore shot them, and was arrested. On the 27th December two members of this force were arrested for the murder of Mr. J. Phelan at Ballyroan, Abbeyleix. I do not ask that these men should not receive a fair trial. I would like to know whether these men were tried for murder, and, if so, with what result? There is another case which has been quoted in a very widely-read English newspaper, the London "Observer" which refers to the looting of a bank by two of these officers, and it is alleged that £1,200 was stolen. I am told that these two men were arrested, and I would like to know whether they have been reinstated or courtmartialled. If these things are true, the House is entitled, before voting over £1,000,000 for maintaining these men, to know what has been done in these cases. It is not sufficient for the right hon. Gentleman to simply say that investigations are being held, because in some cases we have been put off in this way for six months. The latest example is the investigation regarding the very terrible shootings at Croke Park on that awfully bloody Sunday when three children under the age of 14 were killed. According to a written answer, which has just been published, the Chief Secretary refuses to publish the findings of the inquiry into these terrible shootings. It is no use replying that investigations are being held. Where cases of stealing and murder have been proved we want to know if the guilty persons have been punished. All these things go to the very root of efficient administration, and that is what we are entitled to discuss on this Vote We have had a discussion on the Crozier case. Replying to the Debate the Chief Secretary said that an inquiry was being held into the dismissal of the 26 cadets, and he stated that General Crozier would be called to give evidence and he said this in what he calls his belligerent manner, but we call it something else. I wish to know now whether General Crozier has been called as a witness at the court of inquiry, and whether General Crozier's adjutant, who resigned, has also been called as a witness. We are entitled to know whether the promise of the Chief Secretary given at this Box has been carried out and if General Crozier has been invited to give evidence or has given it. Secondly, is it really the fact that the investigation has been completed, and that these 26 cadets have been told that they will not be proceeded against further? The first report which appeared in the Press was that they had been reinstated and allowed to join their original comrades. I should like to know what the result of the investigation—if it is completed—has been, and what punishment, if any, has been meted out. These men were dismissed the force as unsuitable for the work, apparently because they had winked at looting and had partaken of a dinner at which were consumed the stolen fowls, wines, and groceries. We know that Major Daniel, the officer commanding the company, has been suspended. I am not aware for what reason. I suppose it was because of the lack of discipline among the cadets, but my information is that he was away on duty when the looting took place, and that he supported General Crozier wholeheartedly in inquiring into the matter and dealing drastically with the leaders. Five of the cadets were put back for a field general court-martial. Has that court-martial ever been held, and, if so, what were its findings and what sentence was imposed? I do not wish to go into the details of the Crozier case, but I do want information as to the sequel. We are all anxious to know what has been done in this the first case in which the Government have admitted that looting took place.

In the case of the Cork burnings a few cadets were dismissed, but I am informed that they were so punished for offences which were quite independent of the burning and looting. They were discharged for drunkenness and similar offences for which constables are liable in the ordinary course of discipline to get their dismissal. But they were not punished for burning down an important part of the third biggest city in Ireland. I have put a number of questions to the Attorney-General for Ireland, and I have many other special cases I should like information upon. In regard to those I shall probably put questions on the Paper. Now I come to another branch of the police administration in Ireland which has, I believe, not yet been referred to, and in dealing with this matter I have no desire to cause offence to hon. Gentlemen opposite who take a particular interest in this force. I refer to the constables recruited in North-East Ulster, claimed to be well-disposed persons who are all apparently of one religious denomination. I do not wish to make any general attack on this force; on the contrary, I wish to be moderate. This force is reported in the Press—in both Unionist and Nationalist papers in Ireland, and in the English Press of all shades of opinion—to be going in for reprisals! The question I want to ask is—and I ask it in no spirit of criticism, but in pure good faith—whether they are going in for reprisals. What is the answer to that? Is the burning of houses as a reprisal in North-East Ulster by these special constables official or is it non-official? That is my question. We know that there is an official policy of burning down houses in the South and West of Ireland, where it is supposed that the people may have had some knowledge of ambushes. That is admitted. It is done by the military governors. I am not dealing with that for the moment. I want to know if this burning of houses in North-East Ulster by the special constables is official or unofficial? It is a matter of some importance, because if we begin by burning and if we start that sort of thing we may get to more tragic happenings. I hold in my hand a paper that circulates in that part of the world, called "The Impartial Reporter and Farmers' Journal." There is an extraordinary article, a leading article, in this paper, which declares that where any life is taken in this area three lives of Sinn Feiners will be taken in its place. This is given great prominence in this journal. Of course, this is advocating reprisals of the very worst sort, the taking of lives of men not proved to be guilty. This paper is presumably of some circulation, though I have not heard of it before. It is called "The Impartial Reporter and Farmers' Journal," of Fermanagh, with which is incorporated the "Fermanagh Mail and Erne Packet" It was sent to me. It most deliberately advocates the taking of three lives of known Sinn Feiners in the case of the death of one Unionist in any of these towns under the control of these special constables—"well-disposed persons" If they have already gone in for burnings, the next thing will be murder, and I wish to know what the Government's attitude is on this matter, and we are entitled to know.

We have received many many complaints of the conduct of these auxiliaries which I consider much worse than murder or torture or the burning of houses, and they are of deliberately insulting the dearest sentiments of the people they are supposed to be safeguarding and looking after. There are cases of making men kneel down and say, "To Hell with the Pope"; of making them spit on photographs of their national leaders, like the late Lord Mayor of Cork; of making men—and I have no words to describe the shame I feel with regard to this—at the revolver's point kiss the Union Jack. Most men in the Service have been taught that whatever you do you should not insult the religion or the national feelings or the inner private sentiments of a person. It is that conduct which I think is worse than murder. The murder of a man, perhaps at some risk, and in hot blood, is understandable. I do not want to be an armchair critic of these men, and I have always acknowledged the great provocation and difficulties with which they have to contend. But insults to people's nationality, their religion, their reverence for their own chiefs and leaders, is surely un-British, and utterly unworthy of anyone wearing the King's uniform or in any way connected with the forces of the Crown. I wish to ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman, do the Government wink at that sort of conduct, or are they doing their utmost to repress it? Those are the things that will be remembered against us in the future. We remember nothing that the Germans have done so much as the Kaiser's insulting telegram at the time of the Jameson raid. It is these insults to national feeling that burn deep and leave deep scars that are not easily obliterated. We forget death, or the destruction of property, but these insults can only be wiped out in one way, and that is in blood, and I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman if he can tell me that this sort of thing is being suppressed with the utmost possible rigour. It is the worst thing I have heard of from Ireland, and if it is tolerated the price of Empire is too high.

My hon. and gallant Friend has asked me a number of questions, to some of which, as he will understand, it is quite impossible for me to reply off-hand. With regard to his question as to transport, it will be within the recollection of the House that attention has been called many times to the fact that soldiers proceeding upon their duties were ambushed, sometimes by large and sometimes by comparatively small bodies of men, and that the lorries in which they travelled were comparatively unprotected. That accounts for a considerable portion of the expenditure. It will also be recollected that there was a strike for some time against carrying armed forces of the Crown or supplies. As a result of that strike, it was necessary to provide road transport, in order to keep forces of the Crown from being starved at certain points. Further, there was a considerable refusal on the part of private owners to allow the use of vehicles for conveying police; and there was a further necessity, at times, for rapid concentration of the forces of the Crown to meet attacks at various points. Those are the various causes of the increase in the transport Vote. My hon. and gallant Friend referred to the torture of prisoners, which, to me, is largely a new question. I understood him to suggest that they were tortured for the purpose of procuring evidence from them. As a matter of fact, any important cases pass through my hands. These witnesses are examined in open court, and⁁

I think my hon. and gallant Friend was not referring to witnesses who were required to attend to give evidence, but to what is really notorious all through these districts, namely, visits of Black and Tans, who descend upon persons and maltreat or torture them in order to get other persons denounced, that they may then go and either arrest or shoot them. Those cases, I am afraid, would not come before the right hon. Gentleman, and we would like any information that he has about them.

12 M.

I misunderstood my hon. and gallant Friend. So far as these matters are concerned, in any case that my hon. and gallant Friend or the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Acland) can suggest in any district, we will see that inquiries are made, and will undertake to be most confidential and secret as regards any names; but I must say that no such cases have come before me, and I have absolutely no information as to any such cases. I can assure him that if he will entrust me with the name I will give him my word of honour that it will be kept most secret, and I will have inquiries made on my responsibility.

Has not the hon. and gallant Member given the name of a specific case, that of a man in a yard who was kept 36 hours without food? Cannot he give the name of the place?

I have never heard the case mentioned coupled with the most remote suggestion of the district. If the hon. Member will give me the name I will undertake that the information shall be treated in confidence so that no injury falls on the head of the person who has supplied the information. The hon. and gallant Member asked a question with regard to the cadet Hart, who was guilty of a dreadful crime against Canon Magner, and a man named Crowley. It will be within the recollection of the House that this matter was discussed recently, and my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary gave the names of four English doctors attached to asylums in England who had visited Ireland at the request of the Crown, and had examined Cadet Hart, and testified as to the condition of his mind. He was found guilty but insane. As a mere matter of course, the result of that conviction is that he is detained during His Majesty's pleasure, and will be so detained in a criminal lunatic asylum. It is certainly news to me that he is living in barracks and, as my hon. and gallant Friend said, "having the time of his life" I will have inquiries made, and if anything of that kind has occurred the person responsible for keeping him out of a criminal lunatic asylum in defiance of the order of the court will certainly be made responsible.

The hon. Member also asked about certain persons, one named Phelan, and said he had put questions about them last September and last December. It is not within my recollection that he has asked questions about these persons. If that has occurred, I am unable to give information at the present time, and I must plead that there is some justification for my not being able to give it. I give my hon. and gallant Friend a cordial invitation to ask a question on the subject at the earliest possible moment. In regard to the 26 cadets who were proceeded against, he asked whether they had been reinstated? They had not been reinstated. I cannot answer as to the particular stage of their trial at the moment, but the undertaking which my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary gave in respect of them and in respect of the five officers who were ordered to be tried by General Crozier will be strictly carried out.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say wehther these 26 men were paraded yesterday morning and informed that they were going to be granted arrears of pay?

I cannot answer that offhand. All I can say is that they were dismissed by General Crozier, that that dismissal was cancelled and they were suspended and ordered to be tried. Whatever follows from that they will have I cannot say what is the exact result of suspension as compared with dismissal. In the case of dismissal there could be no pay, but in the case of suspension I do not know how the rule applies. However, they have been suspended and will be tried, as the Chief Secretary undertook. The hon. and gallant Member also asks whether the burnings which he alleges were done by special constables were official reprisals. The answer at once is in the negative. Official reprisals take place in areas where the military are supreme under martial law.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after half-past Eleven of the clock upon Tuesday evening, Mr. DEPUTY

There are no official reprisals, so far as I am aware, in any district except where martial law prevails. So far as the Rosslea district is concerned it is not within an area under martial law, and there would be no official reprisals in those cases. With respect to the allegations about persons being compelled to kiss the Union Jack, and to curse the Pope, those are not exactly pleasant incidents, but I am afraid that in the North of Ireland too much importance should not be attached to them. I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that my entire sympathy is with the Pope.

Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

The House divided: Ayes, 92; Noes, 30.

Division No. 24.]

AYES.

[12.7 a.m.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C.

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh)

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Nail, Major Joseph

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Neal, Arthur

Atkey, A. R.

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Goff, Sir R. Park

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Parker, James

Barlow, Sir Montague

Hailwood, Augustine

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Barnett, Major R. W.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Pickering, Lieut.-Colonel Emil W.

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

Betterton, Henry B.

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Breese, Major Charles E.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)

Brown, Captain D. C.

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Bruton, Sir James

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Sugden, W. H.

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Sutherland, Sir William

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Kidd, James

Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield)

Carr, W. Theodore

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

Casey, T. W.

Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)

Vickers, Douglas

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)

Lindsay, William Arthur

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W.

Lort-Williams, J.

Waring, Major Walter

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Williams, Lieut.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Macquisten, F. A.

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Dewhurst, Lieut. Commander Harry

Manville, Edward

Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich)

Doyle, N. Grattan

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Younger, Sir George

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Fildes, Henry

Warden, Lieut.-Col. W. Grant

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Lord Edmund Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward.

France, Gerald Ashburner

Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. F. D.

Hinds, John

Sexton, James

Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

Hirst, G. H.

Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Holmes, J. Stanley

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Lawson, John J.

Swan, J. E.

Bromfield, William

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Rendall, Athelstan

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy and Mr. Cape.

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Robertson, John

Hartshorn, Vernon

SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at a Quarter after Twelve o'clock.