House of Commons
Thursday, March 10, 1921
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Grampian Electricity Supply Bill,
"for incorporating and conferring powers upon the Grampian Electricity Supply Company; and for other purposes," presented, and read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time.
British Museum (Special Trust Funds)
Account ordered, "of the Income and Expenditure of the British Museum (Special Trust Funds) for the year ending the 31st day of March, 1921; and Return of the number of persons admitted to visit the Museum and the British Museum (Natural History) in each year from 1915 to 1920, both years inclusive; together with a Statement of the progress made in the arrangement and description of the collections and an account of objects added to them in the year 1920."—[ Mr. Fisher. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Commutation
asked the Minister of Pensions whether, in order to assist demobilised soldiers and to make further economies by reducing the number of the existing staff of medical men and others, he will arrange to allow demobilised soldiers who are in employment or starting in business to commute their pensions?
I am unable to accept my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion. It is not my policy, nor was it that of my predecessors, to encourage commutation of pensions, and I am convinced that to do so would be to cause many pitiable cases of destitution in the future. Final weekly allowances, which are granted to soldiers who are only slightly disabled, are on a somewhat different footing, and although commutation of these allowances cannot be generally permitted, it is possible for the Ministry to consider a very exceptional case where payment of a lump sum is clearly in the man's interests.
Disability Pensions (Refusal)
asked the Minister of Pensions whether, in view of the dissatisfaction caused by the refusal of pensions on the grounds that disability is alleged to be not due to war service, he will take steps to remodel the Royal warrant so that any man who, on discharge from the Army, was classified in a lower medical category than that in which he was placed on enlistment can on that account be deemed to have a primâ facie case for a disability pension?
I am unable to accept this suggestion. Under the present practice each case is considered on its merits in the light of all the evidence available, and if the claim is rejected on the ground that the disability is not due to service the man has the right of appeal to an independent tribunal.
Can the right hon. Gentleman infuse some of his well-known sympathy into the administration of his Department in dealing with these cases?
I hope I always do so.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the great dissatisfaction with the results of these appeals to the Appeal Tribunal, and can he explain why it is such cases are referred to this tribunal?
The House decided that such cases were to be referred to an outside Appeal Tribunal. I have no responsibility for that Tribunal, nor is it under my jurisdiction, but I am bound, both in the interests of the pensioner and the taxpayer, to accept its decisions.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make representations to the Cabinet on this matter, in view of the great dissatisfaction?
I think that is for the House to do and not for me. I am, myself, very often a defendant in cases.
Orphan Children
asked the Minister of Pensions whether local committees are empowered to place orphan children with guardians, and to pay allowances for their upkeep, while the children of those who were killed early in the War, and were taken care of by relations prior to the issue of Regulations on the subject, are not eligible for the special grants issuable on behalf of the orphans of men killed subsequent to the date of the Act or Regulations; and will he state if he proposes to remove this anomaly?
I must refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given to a similar question put by the hon. Member for Exeter on the 3rd March, of which I am sending him a copy.
Local Committees (Officials)
asked the Minister of Pensions how many paid officials, either whole or half time, are serving on the local committees; how many of these local committees are now in existence; and is he aware of the feeling among those serving on those committees that an economy in the expenses of administering the War Pensions Acts could be effected by a grouping of the local committees and a consequent cutting down of the number of officials employed by his Ministry?
There are at present 6,029 paid officials employed by local committees. The number of committees, including local district and local subcommittees, has been reduced during the last 12 months by 251 and is now 1,287. I may inform my hon. and gallant Friend that the question of the local administration of pensions is now under consideration by the Departmental Committee of Enquiry.
Is there a single local committee that has not at least one paid official attached to it?
That is perfectly true. It is by statute, passed by this House. The time may come when I may ask my colleagues in the House to revise all that.
Dependants
asked the Minister of Pensions, with reference to the ruling of the Ministry whereby a soldier's dependant, who was in receipt of a pension as being incapable of self-support and in pecuniary need, and has been awarded a final gratuity on the cessation of the incapacity, is deprived of all future right to pension, even though the incapacity returns, whether he has formed any estimate of the number of soldiers' dependants who will thus be deprived of the rights to pension conferred upon them by Article 21 of the Royal Warrant; and what is the estimated amount of money that will be saved thereby?
My hon. Friend presumably, intends to refer to Article 22 (1) of the Warrant as Article 21, which relates only to parents, contains no provision for the award of a final gratuity on cessation of incapacity. As my hon. Friend is aware, I am of opinion that the interpretation placed upon this Article, by which no further pension can be granted after the award of the final gratuity, is in accordance with the meaning and intention of the Warrant. During the last four months 151 final gratuities were awarded under Article 22 on cessation of incapacity involving payment of £1487 10s. The annual value of the pensions which thus ceased to be payable was approximately £2,850.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Article 21 provides that the parents of a soldier, even if they are not dependent just now, shall be entitled to a pension in future if they become incapable of self-support and are in distressed circumstances?
That is true.
Is it not the ease that the effect of this ruling is to deprive them of all right to a pension in future if they suffer from a temporary incapacity?
My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. I think he has mistaken both Articles. He refers to a final gratuity. That connotes in the mind of every sane man a final cessation of benefit. My hon. Friend must realise that it is impossible to carry on if you were to give a final gratuity in February because there was no further need, and then suddenly in September, because a recipient wanted further relief, you reopened the case and gave another "final gratuity."
Is it not the case that any sane Department would have seen that there was an alternative course, which was that if the man became eligible to pension in future through incapacity the amount of the final gratuity would be deducted from the pension then payable? That is within the meaning of the Warrant.
It is very difficult to deduct the final gratuity, a very large sum, from a poor person.
I beg to give notice that on the Adjournment to-night I shall raise this question, because of the very grave injustice that is inflicted on a large number of people.
Administration
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction felt by the Burnley local Pensions Committee and by ex-service men in the Borough of Burnley as regards the delay which occurs in his Department in dealing with claims; the frequent failure of his Department to send to the local post office a draft book at the same time as the corresponding ring paper is sent to a pensioner; the arbitrary reduction by headquarters of the amount of the assessment fixed by the district medical board; and the dilatory manner in which the pensions appeal tribunal deals with appeals; is he aware that the causes of dissatisfaction are of long standing and that, although repeated promises of improvement have been made on his behalf, nothing satisfactory has yet been accomplished; and will he give an undertaking that such a rearrangement of staff and reallocation of duties will at once be made and all other things done which may be necessary to put his Department in a position to deal with claims to pension promptly and sympathetically?
As the hon. Member is aware, I have appointed a Committee to inquire into the system and methods of administration of the Ministry of Pensions. The Committee have held many sittings, and they will, I understand, be in a position to report at an early date. In the meantime, I do not think that I can usefully deal with the allegations of delay contained in this question, beyond stating that if the hon. Member has any individual cases in mind, and will give me particulars, I shall be glad to investigate them. I notice, however, that in the third part of his question the hon. Member repeats a charge which I have denied on many occasions. There is no arbitrary reduction at headquarters of assessments made by Medical Boards. The degree of disablement is always determined by a Medical Board who have examined the man, and whose opinion cannot be overruled by any official of the Ministry.
Centralised Issue of Pensions
asked the Minister of Pensions whether it has been decided to continue the system of centralised issue of pensions from London; if so, whether this action has been taken on the Report of the Departmental Committee; whether, in view of the complaints regarding delay in issuing pensions, he will publish the Report of evidence received by the Committee; and when this Report may be expected?
I have decided to decentralise issues to Scotland (as I stated in reply to a question put to me by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh on the 2nd December last), but I shall not otherwise deal with this matter until I have received and considered the Report of the Departmental Committee of Inquiry, which I am expecting at an early date. The question of the publication of the evidence taken by the Committee is under consideration.
Ireland
Fires, Cork
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether officers of the Crown assisted in the destruction of a large part of Cork city by connecting a fire hose to a petrol supply and spraying buildings with petrol; whether evidence to this effect was given at the inquiry before General Strickland; and what action has been taken, or will be taken, to deal with the offenders?
So far as I am aware, the suggestion contained in the first part of this question is wholly without foundation; the remainder of the question does not, therefore, arise.
Am I to understand that there is no evidence of any sort given to this effect?
The information I have received I have communicated to the hon. and gallant Member.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his answer would carry more conviction if the Government published the Strickland Report?
asked the Chief Secretary whether a judge of the High Court in Ireland was asked to hold an inquiry into the Strickland inquiry with reference to the burning of the city of Cork; whether it was intended to publish the revised Report on the Strickland Report; if so, why the Strickland Report is not published; and if not, with what object was the invitation extended to the judge?
My right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary dealt fully with this matter in reply to question in this House on the 16th ultimo. I have nothing to add to the statements then made.
Is this all we are to hear of the Strickland Report. Is this the last of it?
Special Constabulary, Ulster
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had given notice of the following question : To ask the Chief Secretary whether the special constabulary recruited in Ulster from well disposed persons have already engaged in so-called reprisals and have burnt down the property of their Catholic neighbours; and whether this policy has his approval and support?
I have been asked to postpone this question, but is it possible for the learned Attorney-General to answer the last part, as to the policy of reprisals in North-East Ulster? Is that official or unofficial?
If my hon. and gallant Friend asks whether the policy has the approval and support of the right hon. Friend, I can answer that in the negative.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say how many of these special constables have been prosecuted for arson and looting and robbery?
No, Sir; I cannot answer without notice.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of inducing well-disposed Members of this House to conduct reprisals against hon. Members who put down fictitious and ridiculous questions?
Come and start now.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability, in view of the number of prosecutions of these Special Constables for criminal offences, of withdrawing these Special Constables from Ulster altogether?
No, Sir.
Murders and Outrages
asked the Chief Secretary whether he has yet received a report on the killing of two young men named Harnett and Healy by a Black-and-Tan at Abbeyfeale, on 20th September; on the shooting of Mrs. Ryan at her home at Cullen, on 23rd December, by the escort of a military funeral; on the murder of Mr. J. Whelan at Ballyroan, Abbeyleix, on 27th December last, for which two members of the Crown forces were arrested; and on the shooting of Patrick Thompson, of Lisnadar, county Westmeath, at Delvin, on 6th October, by a constable who was arrested; and whether any trials have taken place and with what results?
A report has been received in each of the cases mentioned. The two men, Harnett and Healy, were shot by a constable of the Royal Irish Constabulary at Abbeyfeale, county Limerick, on the 20h September last, while endeavouring to run away after being challenged and called upon to halt. The death of Mrs. Ryan was investigated by a military court of inquiry, which found that her death was caused by a bullet wound fired by some person unknown who was driving in a car occupied by a party of Auxiliary Division of the Royal Irish Constabulary which was following the funeral of a police sergeant. Inquiries are still proceeding with a view to identifying the person who fired the shot. The verdict of the court of enquiry in the case of Mr. Whelan was wilful murder by some person or persons unknown. Two constables were arrested in connection with this crime, one of whom, I regret to state, escaped from custody and has not yet been re-arrested. In the case of Patrick Thompson, a coroner's inquest found a verdict of murder against a constable of the Royal Irish Constabulary, who has been arrested and is at present awaiting trial.
What is being done in the case of the constable who did not escape from custody, connected with the murder of Mr. Whelan?
He will be prosecuted in due course.
How long does it take to have these trials; is not the delay rather long?
There are a good many cases for trial, and it is very difficult in some of them to get witnesses from a distance.
Has there been a single case yet when one of these culpable murderers, of the armed forces of the Crown, has been brought to justice, except in the case of the man the other day who was found a lunatic? Has a single one been executed on a charge of murder?
No; there has been no conviction.
Can the right hon. Gentleman explain how it is that in the case of charges of murder brought against policemen so long ago as two months they have not yet been brought to trial?
Because there is a necessity to get the evidence to convict a person, and very often the charge that is made is wholly unsupported by evidence.
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