House of Commons
Tuesday, March 15, 1921
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair
Private Business
Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with).—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—
Sunderland and South Shields Water Bill.
Ordered, That the Bill be committed.
Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—
Liverpool Mineral and Metal Storage Company (Delivery Warrants) Bill [ Lords ].
Ordered, That the Bill be read a Second time.
Grampian Electricity Supply Bill, Read a Second time, and committed.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
South Persia Rifles
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can now state whether the evacuation of all British officers and noncommissioned officers of the South Persia Rifles on the 31st March has been determined on; if so, what is to become of all the stores, equipment, and animals sup- plied by the British Government; and are the disbanded men to be left in possession of their arms?
The matter is still engaging the earnest attention of His Majesty's Government, and I regret that I can make no announcement at present.
Is it a fact that no evacuation has been ordered at present?
No evacuation is taking place.
Peace Treaties
Schleswig
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what action is being taken with regard to the draft treaty between Germany, the Allies, and Denmark to secure rights of minorities to the Danes and option as to nationality in the Prussian parts of Schleswig?
This draft treaty is still the subject of negotiation between the Allied Governments and the Danish and German Governments.
Is any result likely soon to be reached?
I hope so.
Reparation (Germany)
asked the Prime Minister if, in order to secure the fullest possible reparation from Germany for the War and the wanton damage done to Allied countries, any steps were taken to accurately ascertain the ability of Germany to meet the indemnity demands of the Allies; and, if not, will he recommend the creation of an international tribunal through the League of Nations with that object in view?
I would refer the hon. Member to the Debate on German Reparations which took place in this House on the 10th March.
asked the Prime Minister under which Section of the Treaty of Versailles the invasion of Germany before 1st May for the purpose of enforcing the indemnity is sanctioned?
The application of the sanctions arises from the failure of the German Government to carry out several provisions of the Treaty, publicity to which has already been given in the Press.
Egypt
Martial Law and Press Censorship
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether martial law and the censorship of the Press still exist in Egypt; and, if so, why?
It is still considered necessary to maintain martial law in Egypt in the interest of good government and the maintenance of order, though it is hoped that this necessity will be of short duration. As to the Press censorship generally, I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to a question by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) on the 1st instant.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will explain why the Censor in Egypt refused the publication in the Press of an opinion of Zagloul Pasha on the Milner Report, to the effect that it aims at placing Egypt under the actual super vision of England, this supervision being carried out by a British representative enjoying a privileged position, being backed by a military force; and that it was not possible for Egypt to accept this without amending it with the nation's reservations?
I have no information as to what matter the Press Censor in Egypt has seen fit to exclude from publication in that country. I would remind the hon. Member that this official is responsible to the Egyptian and not to His Majesty's Government.
Ireland
Firing Squads
asked the Secretary of State for War whether any soldiers have refused to obey orders to form part of the firing squads entrusted with the carrying out of the death sentences passed by the military courts-martial in Ireland; and, if so, can he state the number and the period over which the cases occurred?
There is no foundation whatever for this suggestion.
Conference
asked the Prime Minister if, as representative of the stronger body engaged in internecine conflict in Ireland, he will call a truce, and thus pave the way to a conference which may emphasise the futility of the present strife and lead to peace between component parts of our Empire, both of whom would benefit by such a step?
I have frequently stated in this House that the Government would be willing to meet any persons authorised to speak on behalf of the majority of the people of Ireland to discuss this matter.
Royal Marines (Leave)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he is aware that men serving in the Army in Ireland get 28 days' leave, plus travelling time, with a free railway pass, but that men of the Royal Marines obtain 14 days' leave only and have to pay their own railway fares; and if he will inquire into and put this matter right?
The Admiralty have received information of the concession of free travelling passes for leave to soldiers serving in Ireland, and are considering its extension to Royal Marines serving there. Leave to Royal Marines is not granted under Army Regulations and, in the case of those serving in Ireland, is granted at the discretion of the commanding officer, according as men can be spared without relief.
Will this decision be shortly come to?
I hope so.
Ambush, Ballymacelligot
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether John McMahon and Patrick Herlihy who were shot at Ballymacelligot creamery on 12th November, 1920, were the only persons killed at that place on that date?
No, Sir. It is believed that at least four civilians were killed in an attack which took place on a party of the Crown Forces at Ballymacelligot on the afternoon of that date.
Does the right hon. Gentleman adhere to his statement that firing took place from this creamery?
I adhere to the statement I made when this matter was before the House on a previous occasion.
Is the right hon. Gentleman still prepared to stand by the Government in refusing an independent inquiry?
Certainly!
asked the Chief Secretary whether he will state the position where the ambush at Ballymacelligot took place on the 12th November, 1920, stating the distance from the creamery and the name of the road; whether the roads had been tampered with by the rebel forces; and whether he will state the hour of the day at which the attack took place?
A number of men who were taken prisoners at the time of the ambush are at present awaiting trial by court martial. In these circumstances I do not think it desirable that I should make any statement bearing on the case.
Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that this case has been pending since 12th November and has not been heard yet?
I regret that the court-martial has not yet sat to try these men.
Is there any reason why the court-martial is delayed?
No reason whatever except the ordinary reason of routine.
Will it be held in public?
All courts-martial are held in public except in those few cases where, for the safety of the tribunal and of the witnesses it is considered, in the discretion of the court, impossible.
Will this inquiry be held in public?
I must have notice of that question.
Will it ever be held at all?
Murder, Cork
asked the Chief Secretary whether he can give any further particulars as to whether any arrests have been made in connection with the murder of Michael Walsh, of Arches Lane, Blarney Street, Cork, who, whilst an inmate of the infirmary, was forcibly taken by a band of armed men and done to death at the gates of the workhouse on 19th February; and whether it is known that Walsh was killed by Sinn Feiners?
The finding of the court of inquiry in lieu of inquest was that this man was wilfully murdered by persons unknown. I regret to state that no arrests have been made in connection with this crime. It was stated in evidence at the court of inquiry that Walsh was an ex-soldier and had served in the Boer War, had previously been kidnapped by Sinn Feiners, and since his release attempts had been made on his life.
British Army
Military Offenders (Release)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will grant immediate release to the large numbers of men who served in the military forces during the War but are now serving long sentences for minor military offences?
I would refer the hon. Member to previous answers on this subject, and, in particular, to the answers given by my predecessor on 10th December, 1919, and 8th July, 1920, to the hon. Members for White-chapel and Norwich, of which I am sending the hon. Member copies. There are no men who served in the military forces during the War who are now undergoing long sentences for minor military offences.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the request for the release of these men comes from the ex-service men's organisations in different parts of the country?
Is it not a fact that all these eases have been kept constantly under review, with the idea of extending the greatest possible leniency in all cases?
As my Noble Friend says, these cases have been, and are, under constant review, and that fact was stated in the previous answers to which I have called the hon. Member's attention.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be willing to consider special cases which I may send him, and which appear to require special consideration?
Of course I will, and I have already done so within the last week or two. I must remind hon. Members, however, that these cases have been reviewed quite recently. If there is any special case, I have not the slightest objection to looking into it personally.
Courts-Martial Officers
asked the Secretary of State for War whether any steps have yet been taken to appoint as officers in the Army a certain number of gentlemen with legal qualifications for permanent duty in connection with court-martial work, as recommended by the Committee on Courts-Martial in 1919?
This matter is still under consideration.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that officers of this class were used with great success during the War, and, in view of the present condition of affairs in Ireland, when numerous trials by court-martial are taking place, is it not still more imperative that this recommendation should be carried out at once?
I am in full sympathy with the recommendation of the Committee, and, as my hon. and gallant Friend knows, it is being carried out in Ireland at this moment; but to make this a permanent rather than a temporary matter does require further consideration on financial and other grounds.
War Medals
asked the Secretary of State for War how far the distribution of War medals has progressed; when he estimates that it will be com- pleted; and when the Territorials in Yorkshire are likely to receive the medals due to them?
The bulk issue of the 1914 Star and the 1914–15 Star has been completed, but supplementary lists are still being received. The issue of the British War Medal and the Victory Medal is proceeding, and it is hoped will be completed within four years. As rgards the special medal for Territorials, the design has not yet been approved, as precedence is being given to the preparation and distribution of the British War Medal and the Victory Medal, but I hope progress will be made soon.
Guns, Railway Equipment
asked the Secretary of State for War what has been done with all big guns mounted on railway mountings during the late War; and whether such artillery is included in the provision for the post-War Army?
The railway equipments referred to are at present in store. Only a proportion of them are included in the provision for the after-War Army, and the question of how many of the remainder are to be retained as a reserve is at present under consideration.
Deserters
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the grant of an amnesty in all cases of men not on active service who deserted from the Army after the Armistice, in order to enable them to be registered at labour exchanges?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to previous replies to questions on this subject, and in particular to the answer on 18th February, 1920, to the hon. Member for Silvertown, of which I am sending my hon. and gallant Friend a copy.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in the very special circumstances of unemployment existing at present, a very great hardship is inflicted on some men, who are unable to get on the books of the labour exchange owing to the fact that they are technically deserters, and will he give consideration to such cases?
I will have the question looked into.
Unsettled Account
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the War Office what has been the result of his latest communications with the Indian authorities regarding the unsettled account of G. W. Ball, No. 21327, Somerset Light Infantry; whether he is aware that eight months ago the Director of Finance at the War Office informed the hon. Member for Frome that this account was under immediate attention; and what steps it is proposed to take to remove the cause of these delays in the settlement of accounts, especially as regards service in India and the Far East?
I regret that no reply has yet been received from India to the cabled inquiry sent on 19th February last about this old-standing case. The extra pay which this man claims to be due on his Indian account is almost absorbed by the debt due by him on his account in this country, which remains in suspense until the facts are ascertained. I have reason to know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for India is most anxious that everything possible should be done to clear up these arrears in India, and, with the assistance of a War Office paymaster now in that country, substantial progress has for some time been realised. A final effort is being made to settle all outstanding accounts.
Is it really not possible to take some more expeditious means of clearing up a case of this kind, so that it may not be left hanging on month after month?
If my hon. Friend can suggest anything I shall be very glad to consider it.
Is any reply whatever received to cable messages?
Yes, we receive cables frequently about these accounts, but no reply has been received about this one.
Separation and Dependants' Allowance
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the War Office whether members of His Majesty's forces who re-enlisted after they were entitled to demobilisation in 1919 did so in virtue of a contract for special re-enlistment, which provided that the rates of separation and dependants' allowance then in force would be continued; whether this contract has since been varied and the allowances withdrawn, except in the case of men who consent to a reduction of the pay to which they are entitled under the Royal Warrant; whether this alternative has been fully explained to the men affected, and their consent obtained to the variation in the terms of their contract of service; and wheher men who, either through misunderstanding or otherwise, have declined to accept the new conditions can reconsider their decision, and secure the continuance of the separation and dependants' allowance by now consenting to an alteration in their rates of pay?
I would refer the hon. Member to my reply on 23rd February to my hon. Friend the Member for Surrey (Eastern). The men were allowed to secure the continuance of separation allowance or dependants' allowance if they adhered to the rates of pay in force on their enlistment. This was fully explained to them and they were given until 31st December, 1920, to decide. Election to take the new rates of pay and allowances once made is final, and it is regretted that it is not possible to give another option to those men who definitely elected to take the increased rates. Of course, an allotment out of pay may be made to the wife.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are cases of very extreme hardship arising through this action, and that in many cases the relatives believe that if they had been able to explain the matter to the soldier he would have been able to continue the allowance, and under these circumstances will the hon. Gentleman not agree to the matter being re-opened so that the soldier may get the option?
If the hon. Member will give me some special case where the man has been misled, I shall be very glad to look into it.
It is not a case of a special case. There are hundreds of cases. I beg to give notice that I will raise the question on the Army Estimates.
Ex-Service Men
Military Funerals, Nottingham
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that there is a very strong desire in Nottingham to hire a gun carriage and harness, in order that dead pensioners may be given a military funeral; and whether, in view of the fact that the local pensions committee have undertaken to house the gun carriage, keep the saddlery and harness clean, and provide the horses at internments, he will make arrangements for a gun carriage to be sent to Nottingham for this purpose?
I regret that at present I can make no definite promise that a gun carriage can be provided for Nottingham as suggested in my Noble Friend's question, but as many funeral gun carriages as possible have already been distributed to various military commands, and General Officers Commanding have been instructed to render every possible assistance in connection with military funerals. It is suggested, therefore, that the Northern Command should be communicated with whenever a funeral gun carriage is required in Nottingham.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Northern Command have refused this request, on the ground that there are no gun carriages to spare, and does he really expect one to believe such an excuse?
I do not really concern myself very much whether my Noble Friend believes me or not, but what I stated is absolutely the fact. It may well have been that on a particular occasion when my Noble Friend applied to the Northern Command the gun carriage was in use elsewhere. That gun carriages are available is the fact.
Are there not acres and acres of gun carriages and every kind of carriages at various places?
Is not a debt of honour and respect due to these ex-service pensioners, and if it is simply a question of a gun carriage, will not the War Office see if some provision can be made?
I hope there will not be any misunderstanding. I am entirely in sympathy with the desire to place gun carriages at the disposal of the relatives of ex-service men who have died. The sole question is as to what is the best distribution of gun carriages. The actual question asked is whether one can be located at Nottingham. If it were located at Nottingham, every other big town would have an equal right to claim that a gun carriage should be located there. As it is, they have been distributed throughout the Commands, which would enable Nottingham to get one from York, or wherever it is kept in the Northern Command, and that seems to me to be at present the best method of enabling everyone to have a gun carriage when required.
Should any local pension authority undertake the maintenance, the provision, surely, is a small item, and arrangements might be made for their easier distribution from such centres?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Nottingham Pension Committee are quite willing to pay for the maintenance and permanent hire?
Building Trade Dilution
( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Health whether any form of contract issued by the Housing Department of the Ministry contains a clause which would prevent the employment of ex-service men who were not members of a trades union if the employers in the district had agreed not to employ any workman who was not a member of a trade union; whether he is aware that Messrs William Thomas and Sons, of Wrexham, had entered into a contract with the Tredegar Urban District Council to erect a number of wooden bungalows on which they were employing a number of ex-service men who were bonâ fide carpenters, but whom the trades unions termed "dilutees"; whether the trades unions have demanded the immediate dismissal of these men or in the alternative that the urban district council should cancel the contract which is in the form prescribed by the Ministry of Health and is stated to have been infringed by the employment of non-union ex-service men; and whether the Ministry will make it clear to the Tredegar Urban District Council that Messrs. William Thomas and Sons are fully entitled to employ these men on building operations aided by a Government subsidy, and that nothing in any contract issued by the Ministry makes their employment inadmissible?
I have received representations from the contractor to the Tredegar Urban District Council to the effect stated in the question. The model form of contract on which the contract between the Tredegar Urban District Council and Messrs. Thomas and Sons was based, contains nothing which would enable the Council to prohibit the employment of ex-service men, and I am informing the contractor and the Council accordingly.
Questions
Reformatory and Industrial Schools
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the number of boys and girls committed to reformatories and industrial schools in each year since 1915: the number of children under eight committed to industrial schools for each year of the same period; and the number of such children boarded out for each year of the same period?
Wth the Noble Lord's permission, I will have the answer to his question, which contains a number of figures, printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The following is the answer referred to :
The number of boys and girls committed to reformatory and industrial schools during the years 1916–1920, inclusive, is as follows:—
Boys. Girls. Total. 1916 … … 5,738 864 6,602 1917 … … 5,229 822 6,051 1918 … … 4,691 636 5,327 1919 … … 3,134 412 3,546 1920 … … 2,712 484 3,196
the figures were—boys, 260; girls, 182. Total, 442. The number of children boarded out during the years 1916–1920, inclusive, is:—
Boys. Girls. Total. 1916 … … 31 10 41 1917 … … 62 9 71 1918 … … 21 4 25 1919 … … 19 2 21 1920 … … 11 1 12
Licensing Act, 1910
asked the Home Secretary whether he can state, for the year 1920, the number of clubs which were supplied with certificates giving practically to such clubs the privileges of licensed premises; and whether he can give the number of licences suppressed in that year under the redundacy provisions of the Licensing Act, 1910?
There are no certificates of the kind described; but if what the hon. Baronet wishes to know is the number of new clubs registered in 1920 under the Licensing Acts, the estimated figure is 1,146, and the figure of licences extinguished on payment of compensation in that year is 519. Both figures are subject to correction when the statistics now in preparation are completed.
Enemy Aliens (British Wives)
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the cases of women of British nationality who were married to Germans prior to the War, and thereby lost their British nationality, whose husbands either have deserted them or have been legally separated from them, and who if they had applied to resume their British nationality before the peace treaty with Germany was ratified would have been entitled to do so under Section 2 (5) of the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act, 1918; and whether he will introduce legislation enabling the wife of a former enemy alien to resume her British nationality in proper cases?
I am aware of cases of the nature indicated in the first part of the question. I do not think that the wives of former enemy aliens ought now to have any privilege not available to the wives of other aliens; and the general question of the nationality of married women is one of a number which are under consideration, in consultation with the self-governing Dominions, with a view to agreement as to legislation at an early opportunity.
In view of the fact that this consultation with the self-governing Dominions has been going on a long time, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us that he will be in a position to introduce legislation upon some reasonably early date?
Of course, I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by a reasonably early date, but I do not think there is the slightest chance this Session.
In view of the great urgency of these problems, will my right hon. Friend get at any rate the views of our Dominions and Colonial subjects?
That we are doing as rapidly as we can.
Arson, Liverpool
asked the Home Secretary whether he will state the total amount of damage done by incendiary fires in Liverpool by Sinn Feiners; whether any arrests were made; and whether the Government are taking all necessary steps to prevent similar destruction of property in this country?
The damage done by the warehouse and timber yard fires in Liverpool and Bootle on 27th November last was estimated at £950,000, damage at farm fires since that date in Liverpool and adjacent areas at £16,000. In connection with the November fires seven men were brought to trial, of whom three were convicted and sentenced to penal servitude. Others were detained for inquiry, but had to be discharged for lack of evidence. Six men have been arrested in connection with the recent farm fires near Liverpool. The Government are fully alive to the importance of preventing these outrages.
Motor Cars, Police Controls
asked the Home Secretary whether police controls are now set for detection of cases of exceeding the speed limit in the metropolitan police area; whether any experiments have so far been carried out with special road police mounted on motor cycles; and, if so, with what results?
A certain number of controls are still in operation for the purpose stated. The answer to the second paragraph of the question is in the negative; the third therefore does not arise.
Did not the right hon. Gentleman announce last Session that the question of special road police was then under consideration, and cannot he give us a little more information?
It is under consideration still. The matter is one of very considerable difficulty and is not nearly so simple as the Noble Lord appears to think.
Scotland
Hilton-Of-Cadboll Stone
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is now in a position to make a statement to the House with regard to the disposal of the specimen of early Scottish art known as the Hilton-of-Cadboll Stone?
The Trustees of the British Museum tell me that inasmuch as Captain Macleod of Cadboll has informed them that great pressure has been brought to bear upon him to withdraw his offer of the stone to the British Museum and that he would not have made the offer had he realised the strength of Scottish feeling on the subject, they have decided to release him from his promise by declining to accept the stone. It is, therefore, again at the disposal of Captain Macleod, and I do not doubt that arrangements will be made for its retransfer to Scotland.
Small Holdings, Gretna
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether any scheme for the etablishment of small holdings at Gretna is under consideration; and, if so, whether, in view of the great interest shown in the subject in the subject in the locality concerned, he will make public information regarding the scheme as soon as possible?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I recognise the interest which is taken in the subject, and I shall make a statement regarding it as soon as I am in a position to do so.
Agricultural Tenants
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the position of agricultural tenants in Scotland, whose tenancies expire at Whitsunday next and whose claims for compensation for unexhausted improvements may now under the existing law be incompetent, will be rectified by the proposed amending Bill to The Agriculture Act, 1920, when that Bill is introduced?
The Bill to amend the Agriculture Act, 1920, will be framed so as to cover the case of the tenancies referred to. I understand that the Bill is being introduced in another place to-day.
Road Improvement
37 and 39.
asked the Secretary for Scotland (1) how much money has been allotted for road improvement in Scotland in relief of local rates; and upon what system have the grants been made to local authorities;
(2) Whether, in consultation with the Ministry of Transport, he will ensure that roads situated in county areas which are corridor counties lying between two large industrial areas, and often having a low rateable value, will be given adequate aid in relief of the present high road rates caused by traffic which is bringing often no advantage to the locality?
I have been asked to answer these questions. As my hon. and gallant Friend is aware, it is proposed to make substantial grants during the next financial year from the Road Fund towards the cost of the maintenance and improvement of roads throughout the country included in classes 1 and 2, in recognition of the general principle that local rates should not bear the entire burden of the maintenance and improvement of roads carrying a large amount of through traffic. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport hopes to be in a position to make a statement on the subject very shortly.
Will the hon. Gentleman answer my question, on what system are these roads being classified? At present the ratepayer are being burdened with expense because the Ministry of Transport will take no local advice, and will not consult local authorities as to what roads should be classified as first and second class.
The classification has been arranged with almost entire agreement with the local authorities concerned in nearly every case. The first class roads are obviously those which are national roads in the sense that they carry the main amount of through traffic. Second class roads are not strictly local roads. They have some national characteristics. The other roads are, of course, purely local in character.
Is it not the case that there is not agreement in every instance, and will the House have any opportunity of discussing the classification before it is put into operation?
I did not say there was agreement in every instance. I said in nearly every instance. I do not know yet whether it will be possible to arrange for a discussion about it, but my right hon. Friend the Minister is desirous of making a statement if opportunity offers.
Will favourable consideration be given to areas where there is a very great deal of unemployment in regard to the allocation of the money?
May I again press the hon. Gentleman to know whether, if county councils make representations to the Ministry of Transport, they will have a better reception than they have had hitherto?
In reply to my hon. Friend (Mr. Sturrock), this is hardly a question of unemployment. It is a question of the ordinary maintenance of upkeep of these roads, and is more permanent in character than dealing with the question of unemployment. As to the question of my hon. and gallant Friend (Major Glyn), if he has any particular case in mind and will call my attention to it, I will see if it is capable of being reconsidered.
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he will set up a traffic Committee, after consultation with the Ministry of Transport, but not selected by that Department, which shall investigate the present heavy wear and tear of roads by lorry and motor omnibus services which cannot be repaired at the cost of the local ratepayers, which should decide what roads in Scotland shall be open to certain forms of traffic, which shall decide which are first, second and third-class roads, and which shall consider whether certain toll-gates on county boundaries might with advantage be re-established to tax vehicles not registered in the district?
I have been asked to answer this question. I would remind my hon. and gallant Friend that the Rural Transport (Scotland) Committee was appointed by the Secretary for Scotland in 1918. The recommendations of this Committee, so far as they relate to road transport, have been very carefully considered by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport, and I do not see that any advantage would accrue from the appointment of another Committee such as that suggested in the question. The classification of roads in Scotland, which is now practically complete, has been carried out in consultation with the highway authorities concerned. As regards the last part of the question, I should very much deprecate any proposal for re-establishing toll-gates on county boundaries.
Is it not the case that there has been no relief whatever of local ratepayers from the excessive wear and tear of these heavy lorries on county roads?
In some cases that, no doubt, is true, and that is one reason why the present taxation is designed to relieve the local ratepayers and cast the burden upon the national Exchequer.
Illegal Fishing
asked the Secretary for Scotland, if there have been any recent prosecutions or convictions for illegal fishing in the Carnoustie or St Andrew's Bays; and, if so, what additional precautions he intends to take to ensure the strict enforcement of the rules suggested' by the Scottish Fishery Board if their recommendation that these bays be thrown open to seine-net fishing is acted upon by him?
Thirteen cases of illegal seine-net flounder fishing in Carnoustie Bay were tried on the 3rd instant. In 12 cases the accused were convicted, the charge in the remaining case being found not proven. There have been no recent prosecutions for illegal fishing in St. Andrew's Bay. If the bays in question are opened to seine-net fishing, operations will be confined to daylight, and this will facilitate the detection of any infraction of the regulations made by the Fishery Board. No special precautions are considered to be necessary.
Does not my right hon. Friend consider that in view of the multiplication of motor fishing boats during the War the time has now come to review the whole question of inshore trawling in Scotland?
That raises a large question of policy with regard to which I should not like to give an answer on the spur of the moment.
Post Office
Temporary Sorters
asked the Postmaster-General whether he can see his way to reinstate those ex-service men who were employed as temporary sorters in the foreign section of the General Post Office in 1914 and whom his department have refused to take back on demobilisation?
The men to whom the hon. Member apparently refers were engaged early in the War as temporary substitutes for members of the regular staff serving with the Forces, and can only be re-employed under the general conditions applicable to the employment of ex-service men in the Post Office. The number of ex-service men applying for Post Office employment is greatly in excess of the number of places available; and some discrimination in selection is therefore necessary. Preference is being given to men discharged owing to wounds or disease due to military service and to long service professional soldiers, who in my opinion possess stronger claims than the men referred to.
Is it not a fact that the men who are doing this work have been taken on since these men were enlisted in the Army, and therefore they are more temporary than those to whom the question refers?
The whole question is one of the most difficult problems with which we have to deal. If my hon. Friend will bring to my notice any particular case I shall be glad to deal with it.
Irish Mails
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that mails, though leaving London at the same time as in 1914, are later in reaching places in Ireland by periods ranging from one hour in the case of Cork to one hour and twenty minutes in the case of Limerick; that afternoon trains connecting with the night mail to England now leave these places at least three-quarters of an hour earlier, thus making it impossible to reply by return of post to English letters on the day they are received; and whether he can explain this decrease of efficiency, and say when the Post Office will again be able to give the public arrangements as convenient as those enjoyed before the War?
As regards the night mail for Cork and Limerick via Holyhead, the apparent deceleration is in part due to the substitution of Greenwich for Irish time, which results in Irish times being 25 minutes later than in 1914. I am communicating with the railway companies as to whether it is now possible for them to retime some of the trains concerned.
Is it not a fact that if you lose 25 minutes in going to Ireland by a synchronising of English and Irish time you equally gain 25 minutes coming back, so that it makes no difference whatever?
That seems quite a reasonable position, but I should like some time to think about it.
Is it not the case that on all these contracts signed last year the Dublin Chamber of Commerce asked to be. consulted, and that the Postmaster-General refused to hear them, and is it not also the case that all this trouble is due to the hasty way in which the contract was rushed through this House last Session in the small hours of the morning?
I think a great deal of consideration was given to the matter. I must ask for notice of the first part of the question.
Has the right hon. Gentleman had any complaints about the tardy delivery of letters once they reach Dublin, and will he accelerate delivery when they reach Dublin?
Yes, I have. I have had more letters from the hon. Member himself than from almost anybody else.
Is there any hope?
Telephone Service
asked the Postmaster-General whether he will state, approximately, the number of farmers and other residents in rural districts who are now telephone subscribers as compared with the number in 1914?
Subscribers to the special rural party line service number 2,650 now, as compared with 1,600 in 1914. Separate records are not kept of the number of subscribers in rural districts at the ordinary tariff rates.
Seeing the miserable character of these figures, is it not possible to readjust the rural telephone system so as to give our farmers something like the facilities enjoyed by their rivals in other countries?
It is very desirable that it should be done, and I hope it may be possible.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of canvassing these rural areas for subscribers?
Yes. In certain districts where a guarantee has been given I think canvasses have been made, and I think they might be made more widely.
Is not the guarantee quoted at an absolutely impossible figure?
In some cases, but not in others.
asked the Postmaster-General if a telephone subscriber, whose contract expires before April or at a date before the new rates come into use, must give three months' or accept three months' notice to terminate such contract; and if such contract is actually broken by the rise in rates?
The ordinary telephone contract is a continuing agreement and remains in force until notice is given to determine it in accordance with the terms of the contract. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative. The new local rates will not apply to an existing subscriber until his agreement has been duly determined.
Is it a fact that subscribers are receiving documents containing about 18 paragraphs which they have to sign, and the Post Office refuses to give them a copy which they can retain after signature?
I was not aware of that. I will look into it.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that in the autumn of 1919 he informed certain residents in Kilmeston, Hants, that he would supply a telephone service if seven subscribers would come forward at £6 per annum; whether the contracts were signed in January, 1920, subject to the final approval of the Postmaster-General; whether that approval was never given, in spite of repeated applications; whether in August, 1920, the subscribers were informed that they could not have a telephone service unless they undertook to pay an annual subscription of £29 each; and whether he can state the reason for the very heavy increase in the annual charge?
In January, 1920, seven residents offered to hire exchange lines at the tariff rates then in force, but I am assured that the canvasser did not state that this amount of support would suffice. When estimates of the cost of providing an exchange with a junction circuit to Alresford were obtained it was found that a minimum payment of £29 per annum would be required from each of the seven applicants in order to meet the costs. I will ascertain whether sufficient support can be found for a Rural Party Line to serve the neighbourhood at the new rates of £4 or £4 10s. per subscriber.
asked the Postmaster-General whether telephone subscribers who have paid in advance under agreement with the Post Office for a year's telephone service are not entitled to complete the 12 months during which their agreement runs at the old rate of payment; and whether it is necessary for the Post Office under the terms of the usual agreement to give three months' notice from the date of the termination of the agreement to terminae the same before any additional charges can be made?
Telephone agreements are terminable at the end of the initial period provided for in the agreement or at the end of any period of three months thereafter. The fact that rental has been paid for 12 months in advance does not prevent the agreement being terminated by either party after due notice before the 12 months have expired. In such cases credit is given for the unexpired portion of the rental.
Surely, if a subscriber pays for a service for 12 months in advance he is entitled to have that service for 12 months without determination?
Normally the initial term is 12 months, but to prevent delay in the application of the revised tariff agreements at the old rates accepted in the latter part of 1920 provided for a shorter initial term, although a year's rental was paid in advance.
asked the Postmaster-General whether a statement of account will be rendered by his Department to telephone subscribers free of charge whenever a demand is made for payment of a further deposit in advance in respect of calls on the ground that the amount incurred for such calls approximates to or exceeds the sum already de posited by the subscriber?
The answer is in the affirmative. If a subscriber's deposit is found to be inadequate a demand for an increased deposit will generally be made on the next quarterly account.
Will a statement of account be made in all cases contrary to the present practice?
Yes. So far as I know, that is so.
Censorship
asked the Postmaster-General whether there is any censorship of letters, parcels, or telegrams leaving this country; if so, what is the cost of maintaining it; and when this War-times practice will be discontinued?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative and the remaining parts do not, therefore, arise.
asked the Postmaster-General whether there is any censorship of letters, parcels, and telegrams between England and Ireland?
The answer is in the negative.
Does the answer of the right hon. Gentleman cover any interference with correspondence by the Secret Service Department?
My answer is a complete answer as it stands.
asked the Postmaster-General whether any foreign countries maintain a censorship over telegrams, letters, or parcels entering the country; and, if so, whether he can say which countries they are?
So far as I am aware unregistered mails arriving in this country from foreign countries are not censored abroad. I believe a modified censorship of registered correspondence is maintained by Germany, Poland and Roumania. Censorship on telegrams is in force in a more or less restricted form in the following countries: Cilicia; the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croates, and Slovenes; Czecho-Slovakia; East Africa (Tanganyika Territory); Esthonia; Greece; Hungary; Japan; Mesopotamia; Poland; Roumania; Russia; Syria; and Tripoli.
Why is there a censorship in East Africa?
I am not able to answer that question at the moment.
Officials (Irish Republican Army)
asked the Postmaster-General whether a large percentage of the postal officials in Ireland are members of the Irish Republican Army; whether they are frequently using their official position in order to thwart the movements of the Crown, forces; and whether he will consider the advisability of suspending the postal services in the martial law area?
The Department has no evidence that Post Office servants in Ireland are members of the Irish Republican Army or that they abuse their official positions in the manner suggested. Such abuse would not be tolerated. In view of this fact, I can see no justification at present for suspending postal services in the areas under martial law. If my hon. Friend has any particular case which he thinks it advisable to bring to my notice I shall be glad to consider it.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the thing is notorious all over Ireland and has been commented on by a Royal Commission already?
Notorious is a difficult word to define. We have not any knowledge.
Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to substitute the word "general" for "notorious"?
Yes. I shall be very glad to look into any particular case if the hon. Gentleman will bring it to my notice. We have had this question raised before, but we have no particular case with which we can deal at the moment.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the success of the activities of the Sinn Feiners is due largely to the fact that there are disloyal officials in the Post Office with knowledge of the Post Office?
Letters, London Area
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that in the residential and outlying dis- tricts of London there are six postal deliveries and six clearances of pillar posts daily; whether the reasonable commercial and industrial requirements of those districts necessitate so many deliveries and clearances; and whether, in the interests of economy and the avoidance of all unnecessary expenditure, he will substantially reduce the number of such deliveries and clearances?
The number of deliveries varies from six to four, and of collections from eight to six. In both respects the service is less frequent than before the War. Any further reduction would not, I am advised, result in a saving of expenditure, while it would create staffing difficulties owing to the work being spread less evenly over the day.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not consider that a reduction from six to three in deliveries and collections would result in a reduction of expenditure, and would he consider whether six deliveries are not a doubtful necessity in a purely residential neighbourhood?
My hon. Friend knows that the number of deliveries is not in ratio to the expenses. The question might possibly be reconsidered, but it is not a simple question.
Questions
Business Premises
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the refusal of the Government to accept the Report of the Select Committee on Business Premises has caused consternation throughout the kingdom; whether he is aware that many businesses will be broken up at Whitsun and Midsummer if the Government refuses to extend the provisions of the Act to business premises; and whether he will even yet reconsider the Government's decision.
I regret that I can add nothing to the reply which I gave on this subject on the 28th February last.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the widespread distress that this is going to cause among men carrying on small businesses, and that in many cases rivals in trade are taking these premises over their heads, and it will mean the ruin of these men?
Tenant Farmers (Improvements)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the serious position in which tenant farmers are placed by the Agriculture Act of 1920 depriving them of compensation for improvements which they were entitled to under the Agricultural Holdings Act of 1908 unless they had entered into the tenancy of the holding since 1st January, 1921; whether he is aware that this will affect many tenant farmers whose tenancy is due to expire on 25th March next; and whether the Government intend to introduce an amending Bill which will remedy this state of affairs and also be made retrospective?
I have been asked to reply to this question. The point raised by the hon. Member is dealt with in the Bill which has to-day been introduced in another place. This Bill is retrospective in its effect.
Women (Electoral Age)
asked the Prime Minister whether the Cabinet has yet considered the request for the reduction of the electoral age of women from 30 to 21; what, in that case, is its view; and whether it proposes to take the opinion of the House on the matter?
The Cabinet have not recently had this matter under consideration, and, therefore, I am not in a position to make a statement on the subject at present.
Is it not a fact that if the proposal suggested in the question was carried out the women electors would largely outnumber the men, especially having regard to the heavy casualties among men in the recent War?
Food Supplies
Deptford Cattle Market
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether the Deptford Cattle Market is at present held by the War Office as a reserve supply depot; whether the rent paid by the War Office is £10,000 a year; whether the Canadian Government are ready to ship sheep and cattle to the market for slaughter and sale; whether, if the market were re-opened, large numbers of unemployed could find work there; and whether he can take steps to restore the market to the use for which it was intended?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. I would refer the hon. Member to my reply on 21st December last to the hon. Member for Dartford. I regret it is not possible for the Department to relinquish occupation of the market at present. According to the best information there appears little prospect of the trade referred to being revived, as I understand no Canadian fat cattle are coming to other ports for slaughter where suitable accommodation is available.
Is not the hon. and gallant Member aware that at Birkenhead live cattle from Canada are being landed for immediate slaughter?
I am not aware of that.
Questions
Ministry of Munitions (Inquiry)
asked the Lord Privy Seal if the Judicial Committee inquiring into certain allegations in regard to the Accounts Liquidation Committee of the Ministry of Munitions will sit in public?
asked the Lord Privy Seal if parties affected by the allegations made against certain officials of the Ministry of Munitions will be allowed to be represented by counsel; and if the proceedings will be held in public?
These are questions which come within the discretion of and must be decided by the Committee itself.
Would the right hon. Gentleman generally recommend that in inquiries of this kind where allegations have been publicly made the evidence both for and against the allegations should be given in public?
I think it very undesirable when the Government appoint a Committee to interfere with their procedure. I have no doubt that they will take into account the importance of publicity.
If the Government appoint a Committee, why cannot they say in their terms of reference that they should hold the inquiry in public?
So far as we are concerned there is no objection. On the contrary, we should welcome every publicity in the matter.
Will my right hon. Friend point that out in the terms of reference to the Committee? Why not?
Income Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will accept War Loan stock at the price of issue for purposes of payment of Income Tax in the case of those individuals who can prove that they are original holders of their stock?
No, Sir. I cannot agree to give subscribers to War Loans an uncovenanted benefit, outside the terms of the various prospectuses, for which the taxpayer has received no corresponding consideration?
Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the question whether, in the case of a trading firm which originally applied for War Loan and subsequently realised at a loss, he will not allow them to treat that as an ordinary trading expense?
That does not arise in any sense out of the question on the Paper. I think that I have already answered it, but if an answer is again required I should like notice.
Government Staffs (Committees)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the various Committees appointed last year to inquire into the staffing of certain Government Departments have submitted their reports; and when such reports will be presented to the House for their consideration?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Three of the reports have already been published, and the remainder will be circulated at an early date.
Banks (1st January and 1st July)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if it is his intention to reopen the banks on 1st January and 1st July; and, if it is, will he reconsider his decision?
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the amount of extra work that is thrown on the staffs of banks at the close of each banking half-year, he will continue to allow the practice of closing the banks on 1st January and 1st July?
I would refer my hon. Friends to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for West Nottingham on the 10th March.
Have the bank managers been consulted on this matter?
I do not think that I have formally consulted the banks on the subject. The banks applied during the War for this special arrangement because of the shortage of staff and the extreme pressure, but I do not think that that is any reason for its continuance, and it seems to me that further steps ought to be taken by the banks which both serve the convenience of the public and have due regard to the conditions of the service.
Before coming to a final decision will the right hon. Gentleman ask the bank managers or officials?
No. I do not propose to make any further inquiry. I gave notice to the banks some time ago.
Agricultural Organisation Society
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether protests have from time to time been received by his Department and the Development Commission against the payment of public subsidies in any shape or form to the Agricultural Organisation Society; and whether, in view of the heavy commitments by the State to farmers and agricultural interests generally consequent upon recent legislation and also upon recent decisions of the Government, and seeing that it is now time that these interests were called upon to find the funds for their own organisation instead of continuing to draw public subsidies paid through the Agricultural Organisation Society, he will announce to that society forthwith that no further public funds will be paid to it?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the last part, I beg to refer to my reply to the hon. Member for Leigh of the 2th June last, which I see no reason to modify.
Unfit Horses, Export
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is prepared to consider the imposition of an export tax on all horses leaving this country, with a view to putting an end to the traffic in old and worn-out horses between this country and the Continent?
I have been asked to reply. I have at present nothing to add to the reply which was given to the hon. Member for Wimbledon on the 11th March.
Is not the Chancellor of the Exchequer the proper person to decide as to a tax being put on and not the Ministry of Agriculture?
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Wounded Officers
asked the Minister of Pensions whether, when officers re-enter hospital for the treatment of wounds received in the War, he will in future arrange for them to receive retired pay while in hospital at the maximum rate under Article 6 of the Royal Warrant in all cases, so as to end the existing discrimination in favour of the officer with private means and against the officer who draws salary or sick pay by the generosity of his civil employer while in hospital?
Under Article 6 of the Royal Warrant, the retired pay of an officer under treatment can only be raised to the maximum if in consequence of the treatment he is unable to provide for his own support and for that of his family. If the officer continues to draw salary or wages from his employer while in hospital his ability to support himself and his family remains unaffected by the treatment and the retired pay cannot, therefore, be raised to the maximum. Where the officer does not continue to draw salary and wages, he is not deprived of maximum retired pay, even although he may have private means, because it is felt that, whatever his private income may be, he is being deprived of the power to earn money for himself and his family, and thus provide for his and their support, by being taken from such work as he was able to do and being placed under treatment in hospital.
Does not this discrimination between private means and salary mean that the State escapes its obligation at the expense of the generous employer?
Not necessarily so. If the private means were taken into account the difference would be remedied, but that would mean taking away the payment which officers now get in a large number of cases, and an inquiry into their private means which we are anxious not to have.
Do you not equally take away the payment they get in present cases, where it comes from salaries? Does not that objection fall to the ground, and is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a great deal of bitter feeling among officers at this apparent discrimination in favour of the man with private means?
It would involve inquiry into private means, but I do not think it is desirable to make that extension.
Cannot you meet it the other way by giving it in all cases, as was done before this new regulation came into force?
Acting-Sergeant B. Mee
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he will reconsider the case of the late Acting-Sergeant Bernard Mee, reference No. W case, 2,566 Cheshire, who was passed into the Army Al, which was verified by the officer in charge of records, 13th November, 1920, and the sergeant was discharged after two years' service with bronchial catarrh, remaining under medical treatment until his death, which was certified as tuberculosis?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to him on the 23rd November last. My right hon. Friend regrets that as the verdict of the tribunal is by statute final he has no power to reconsider the widow's claim to pension.
Transport
Motor Lorries (Agriculture)
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the fact that motor lorries used entirely for agriculture and horticulture for the purpose of carrying manure, fruit, vegetables, etc., are liable to £25 licensing duty; and whether, in view of this heavy burden placed on these industries, he will urge the Chancellor of the Exchequer to amend the scale of charges so that the motor lorries come under the £6 duty?
I have been asked to reply. The rates of duty payable for the licensing and registration of mechanically propelled vehicles were settled by the House, and are incorporated in the Finance Act, 1920. I must remind the hon. Member that these vehicles are heavy users of the roads, and benefit by the abolition of the petrol tax. The agricultural community enjoys a valuable concession in the very low duty payable for agricultural tractors, and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport does not see his way to advise the granting of the further relief asked for.
Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the fact that agriculturists pay their share towards the roads in the shape of rates, and in view of the fact that there is already discrimination by the exemption of tractors from the heavy duty, does he not see the fairness of this conclusion?
The agriculturists, in common with other ratepayers, are relieved by the grants which are made under this form of taxation.
Commercial Travellers
asked the Minister of Transport what progress, if any, has been made in the restoration, either in whole or in part, of the travelling concessions made in pre-War days to commercial travellers?
The Rates Advisory Committee recently reported upon the whole question of the issue of tickets at fares less than the ordinary, of which the pre-War concessions to commercial travellers form part. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport has informed the railway companies that in his opinion the restoration of week-end tickets for commercial travellers is desirable, and hopes to be in a position to make an announcement very shortly.
Will the same privilege be extended to trade union officials and other agitators?
Did I understand the hon. Gentleman to say that the Minister of Transport personally favours this concession, and is doing all in his power to secure its renewal?
Yes, he certainly favours it, and has recommended it to the consideration of the railway companies.
Questions
Kenya (Indians)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any and, if so, what action is being taken in connection with Sir Benjamin Robertson's report on the treatment of Indians in Kenya Colony?
I understand that Sir Benjamin Robertson's views on the Indian question in Kenya were incorporated in the despatch from the Government of India of 21st October, which has been published in India. The whole question is awaiting discussion between the two Secretaries of State, and in the meantime the Governor of Kenya has been requested to take no steps in the matter of segregation.
Can we get that report published in this country if it is not published in India?
I suggest that the hon. and gallant Member put that question to the India Office.
Ceylon
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why the repeal of the penal labour legislation in Ceylon has been postponed; and whether this postponement has the approval of the Indian Government?
Provision has been made in the Bill for the Immigrant Labourers Ordinance for the repeal of the penal provisions of the existing Ordinance, so far as they apply to immigrant labourers. The Bill is a general one, containing many important provisions, and I gather that it is still under consideration in Ceylon. I will enquire whether it is possible to provide for the repeal of the penal provisions in advance of the settlement of more contentious questions.
There is no foundation for the suggestion that the delay is at this end? If there is delay, it is in Ceylon?
Yes, quite so.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any and, if so, what pledge has been given to the people of Ceylon that the constitution granted to Ceylon will be revised; and what steps he proposes to take to prepare for such revision?
In his despatch enclosing the Constitution Order in Council, Lord Milner stated that when the new Constitution has had a reasonable trial he would be ready to consider any proposals for its amendment. I understand, although I have not yet received an official report in the matter, that the Governor of Ceylon recently received a deputation from the National Congress, and gave an undertaking that all amendments to the Order in Council that may be suggested by members of the newly constituted Legislative Council during the forthcoming Session will be forwarded to the Secretary of State with his recommendations by the end of the Session. Such suggestions as may be received will be given careful consideration by the Secretary of State in the light of Lord Milner's despatch.
Is my hon. Friend not aware that the Governor has promised that the Constitution will be reconsidered in a year, and not at an indefinite date?
The Governor's promise was that at the end of the Session all the suggestions for amendment will be sent home and then considered, naturally, promptly.
Dinas Mawddwy (Explosive Store)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions what compensation, if any, has been awarded to the owner of the premises at Dinas Mawddwy recently occupied as an explosives store?
The compensation awarded by the War Compensation Court in December, 1920, to the owner of the store at Dinas Mawddy was as follows:—
Savings Certificates
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether his latest official information indicates any noticeable sale of War Savings certificates due to the unemployment of the holders?
The answer is in the negative.
Leeds and Bradford (Extension)
asked the Minister of Health whether he has been able to form any estimate of the total cost to date of the local inquiry into the Leeds and Bradford borough extension proposals?
I have no means at present of forming any estimate of the cost to which the hon. Member refers.
Is it not known that the cost is something appalling and that it thoroughly justifies the worst anticipations of those concerned?
I think the facts thoroughly justify the efforts I made to induce these authorities not to incur this expenditure.
Can the right hon. Gentleman inform the House when we are likely to have a decision after this inquiry has been held?
I do not know. I do not think the whole inquiry is yet concluded.
A week ago, I understand.
Coal Supplies, Monmouthshire
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the mineowners of Monmouthshire have closed down 11 collieries, and 30,000 men, women, and children have their health seriously endangered because they cannot obtain coal for domestic use; and Will he take steps, in conjunction with the Secretary for Mines, to see that coal is made available for purchase in the Blaenau, Abertillery, and Abercarn areas?
I have been asked by the Minister of Health to reply to this question. In the areas in question the mineowners when they closed down the collieries arranged that supplies should be provided from other collieries. There has been a temporary shortage while these supplies were being, got through, but it is expected that there will be no shortage by the end of this week.
Scottish Education Department (Oxford Street)
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that, in spite of remonstrances based on the interference with the work of the Department, the whole staff of the Scottish Education Department has been removed to a position two miles from the Scottish Office; and whether he will use his influence to procure for the Scottish Education Department some accommodation in the neighbourhood of Whitehall similar to what has been so lavishly given to other Departments?
The Scottish Education Department were moved a year ago to premises in Oxford Street which are not more than one mile from the Scottish Office, and I am not aware that any serious inconvenience has been caused thereby. As regards the second part of the question, it is impossible owing to the congestion in the neighbourhood of Whitehall to contemplate their return to that area. As a matter of fact branches of several other Departments have also had to be accommodated outside the Whitehall area.
Does the right hon. Gentleman seriously ask the House to believe that it is not an inconvenience to this Department that the head of it should be more than a mile away from his staff?
Would this injustice be permitted if Wales or England had been concerned instead of Scotland, and how can the Secretary for Scotland be expected to administer the Scottish Education Department when he is two miles away? Would not the remedy be to transfer the whole administration from this country to Scotland?
I am not able to deal with the latter part of the question. It is not two miles, but scarcely a mile, away. I have not been informed that any serious inconvenience has been caused.
Is it not a fact that the permanent head of this Department is removed more than a mile away from his staff and is it really suggested that that does not militate against the successful carrying out of the work in that Department?
Is it not much more difficult for the Secretary for Scotland, who has so many boards to administer, than in the case of the English Minister, who has only one Department under his administration?
I understand that for quite a number of years practically the English Board of Education was situated at South Kensington, which is much further away from Whitehall, and that Department went on all right apparently.
Does my right hon. Friend not think it is obvious that if the permanent head of the Department is a mile away from his staff he cannot efficiently carry on his duties?
I am afraid I do not think it is obvious.
Is it not the case that with the English Education Department there is only a very small subsidiary branch situated at South Kensington, whereas in the case of the Scottish Education Department the whole staff is separated from the permanent head and has to work otherwise than under his supervision, and is there any other ease of a public Department where such anomalies exist?
I think the thing will be for the permanent head to go and join his Department.
Ministry of Labour Officials (Conference, York)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether ha is aware that some 80 officials of the Board of Trade recently stayed for five days at the Royal Station Hotel, York; if so, what was the occasion; why was so large a party necessary; and what was the hotel bill?
I have been asked to reply to this question. One officer of the Board of Trade stayed recently at the Royal Station Hotel, York, but I am not aware of any larger number of members of the Board of Trade staff having stayed recently at this hotel. I am informed that the Annual Conference of the National Association of Officers of the Ministry of Labour was held at the Royal Station Hotel, York, on the 5th, 6th and 7th March. Some 40 or 50 officials of, the Ministry of Labour attended this conference in their capacity as staff representatives and not on behalf of the Department. The expenses of the conference were not defrayed from public funds.
Unemployment
Aliens
asked the Minister of Labour what precautions are taken, if any, to prevent aliens receiving unemployment pay?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave to the question asked by the hon. and gallant Member for Basingstoke (Colonel Sir A. Holbrook) on the 7th March. First, as to unemployment benefit under the contributory scheme contained in the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1920 and 1921, no distinction as regards nationality is made either in the liability to pay contributions or the right to receive unemployment benefit. Secondly, as to out-of-work donation, this is payable to ex-members of His Majesty's Forces, irrespective of nationality, and to merchant seamen who are British subjects. The only case therefore in which the nationality of the applicant is material either for benefit or for donation is that of a merchant seaman claiming Donation, and in this case the facts are readily ascertainable by inspection of the seaman's service papers.
Shop Assistants, West Cornwall
asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the economic conditions that obtain in the, small country towns of West Cornwall and the serious prevailing distress in the mining areas, he will consider the advisability of relaxing the minimum wage conditions to such an extent as to provide against the dismissals of assistants in small shops owing to the inability of their employers to carry the increased rate of wages; and is he aware that in the millinery, dressmaking and tailoring trades in these areas 62 per cent, of the employés had already been dismissed, the employers being unable to pay the wages as laid down by his Department, although all are willing to accept less to meet present conditions?
An officer was recently sent to inquire into the position in Cornwall and the South-West of England, and a full report from him has just been received, which is receiving our consideration. I would, however, remind my hon. Friend that the fixing of minimum rates of wages is entrusted by the Trade Boards Acts, not to any Government Department, but to joint bodies representative of the trades concerned. With regard to the second part of the question, my information as to unemployment does not support the actual figures mentioned. My hon. and gallant Friend will be interested to know that the Minister has just given consent to the issue of a notice of proposal by the Dressmaking Trade Board to make substantial modifications in the rates for juveniles, and that the Retail Bespoke Tailoring Trade Board is also considering the amendments of the scales of pay for juveniles.
Questions
Key Industries Bill
( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that it is a matter of urgent importance to the industries of this country to know at the earliest possible moment whether the passage of the Reparations Bill will in any way affect the promised legislation relating to dumping, collapsed exchanges and key industries; and if so, in what manner and to what extent; and will he, therefore, make a statement on the subject?
As has already been stated by the Leader of the House, the passage of the Reparations Bill will not in any way affect the promised legislation in question.
If it is the case, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer said yesterday, that Germany is getting world prices for her goods, what necessity is there for a Key Industry or Anti-Dumping Bill?
Business of the House
May I ask the Noble Lord (Lord E. Talbot) if he will inform the House as to the business to be taken to-morrow and on Thursday?
To-morrow the German Reparation (Recovery) Bill will be down for first Order, and a Supplementary Estimate for the Unemployment Vote will be the second Order.
On Thursday, the Navy Estimates will be the first Order, and the Coal Mines (Decontrol) Bill the second Order.
Perhaps I may add the business for to-day. After the Army Votes, the Supplementary Estimate for the Ministry of Munitions will be taken, and then the Report stage of the Post Office Vote taken last night.
Ladies' Gallery
I wish, Mr. Speaker, to ask you a question with reference to the Ladies' Gallery, namely, whether you can see your way to-opening the Ladies' Gallery for the wives of Members, and for those ladies who are relatives of Members and who are within the category mentioned in the Book of Common Prayer as women whom a man may not marry?
I do not quite follow the reason for drawing the fine distinction, which the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggests. The woman whom one Member may not marry may be married by another Member. Apart from that, if we once begin to make exceptions, it will mean the opening of the Galleries to anybody, and it will be extremely difficult not to open the Galleries altogether. As the hon. and gallant Gentleman knows, there are reasons why it is still desirable to maintain the order which we have established, and which, I think, has been on the whole pretty generally accepted as being desirable and necessary. But I will consult those who are in authority in regard to managing the approaches to the House, and who are responsible for order in the neighbourhood of the House, and if the hon. and gallant Gentleman will put his question again, say, after Easter, I hope to be able to give him a more favourable reply than I can now.
May I ask you, Sir, whether you are aware that that list to which I have alluded really comprises all one's nearest relations, and that was the reason I mentioned it comprehensively? Further, even if the Gallery were open to ladies who were of Sinn Fein proclivities, if they did throw a bomb, it would probably only land on the Opposition.
It is the unemployed, not the Sinn Feiners, you are afraid of.
In taking into consideration the question of admitting the wives of Members, will you also take into consideration, in the interests of equality, the question of admitting the husbands of Members in the other Gallery?
We should have to take into consideration the admission of the brothers and cousins of Members, once you begin to open the door.
Will you also have regard to title fact that in the House of Peers, peeresses are allowed to be present during Debates?
We must leave the other House to manage their own business. We have got enough to do to manage our own.
Bill Presented
Capital Punishment (Limitations) Bill,
"to prohibit the passing of sentence of capital punishment on persons who, at the time of committing the offence, have not attained the age of twenty-one, and on persons who have been recommended to mercy by a jury," presented by Major CHRISTOPHER LOWTHER; supported by Mr. Bottomley, Mr. Spoor, and Mr. Kennedy Jones; to be read a Second time upon Monday, 18th April, and to be printed. [Bill 45.]
Coal Mines (Decontrol) Bill
Reported, without Amendment, from Standing Committee A.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 54.]
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 54.]
Bill, not amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration To-morrow.
PILOTAGE PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Message from the Lords
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to convert the shares in the capital of the Chatham and District Light Railways Company into shares of one pound each; and for other purposes" [Chatham and District Light Railways Bill [ Lords. ]
And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend the capital powers of the South Metropolitan Gas Company; and for other purposes." [South Metropolitan Gas Bill [ Lords. ]
Indian Affairs,— That they propose that the Standing Joint Committee on Indian Affairs do meet in Committee Room A, on Thursday the 17th of March, at Eleven o'clock.
Chatham and District Light Railways Company Bill [ Lords ],
South Metropolitan Gas Bill [ Lords ],
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Indian Affairs
So much of the Lords Message this day as relates to the place and time of meeting of the Joint Committee on Indian Affairs considered.
Ordered, That the Committee appointed by this House do meet the Lords Committee as proposed by their Lordships.—[ Lord Edmund Talbot. ]
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.
Selection (Standing Committees)
Standing Committee B
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection: That they had nominated the following Members to serve on Standing Committee B: Lieut. -Colonel Allen, Captain Bagley, Sir William Barton, Mr. James Bell, Mr. Betterton, Sir Francis Blake, Captain Bowyer, Major Breese, Mr. Briant, Sir James Bruton, Mr. William Carter, Mr. Neville Chamberlain, Captain Coote, Mr. Alfred Davies (Clitheroe), Sir Joseph Davies, Mr. Grattan Doyle, Mr. Charles Edwards, Major Farquharson, Sir Arthur Fell, Mr. Galbraith, Mr. Gange, Mr. Gardiner, Captain Gee, Mr. Grant, Mr. Frederick Green, Mr. Grundy, Mr. Hallas, Mr. Hurd, Lieut.-Colonel James, Mr. John, Mr. Lonsdale, Sir Philip Magnus, Mr. Mallalieu, Major Watts Morgan, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur Murray, Sir Charles Oman, Mr. Ormsby-Gore, Mr. Renwick, Mr. Sidney Robinson, Colonel Sir Alexander Sprot, Mr. Taylor, Mr. Wallace, Sir Courtenay Warner, Colonel Wedgwood, Mr. Charles White, Lieut,-Colonel Dalrymple White, Colonel Penry Williams, Mr. James Wilson (Dudley), Mr. Tyson Wilson, and Major Mackenzie Wood.
Standing Committee A
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee: That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A: Mr. Hugh Edwards; and had appointed in substitution: Sir Evan Jones.
Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee: That they had discharged the following Member from the Parliamentary Panel under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899: Mr. William Young; and had appointed in substitution: Lieut.-Colonel Arthur Murray.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
Sir Courtenay Ilbert' Services
Tributes by Prime Minister and Mr. Asquith
I beg to move,
"That Mr. Speaker be requested to acquaint Sir Courtenay Peregrine Ilbert, G.C.B., K.C.S.I., C.I.E, that this House desires to express its appreciation of the manner in which he has uniformly discharged the duties of his important office during the long period spent by him in the service of this House."
In the absence of the Leader of the House, through indisposition, it is my privilege to move this Resolution which appears in his name. Sir Courtenay Ilbert had won for himself a notable career before he ever entered the service of this House. At Oxford, he was famous for his classical scholarship. In India, he was for years Legal Member of the Council, and he has left a name which is still widely and gratefully remembered there. Afterwards, he became Parliamentary draughtsman, a position which, as those who are acquainted with the framing of Ministerial measures know, demands a very remarkable combination of qualities, an exact and a very intimate knowledge of our laws, a broad grasp of political issues, a great gift of clear and precise expression, and also a readiness and a resource which will enable him, at a moment's notice, to find expedients to surmount difficulties. It is one of the most difficult positions to fill. He filled it in such a way as to win for himself a place as a great Parliamentary draughtsman. When he entered the service of this House he mastered its forms and its procedure, and he has made many very valuable contributions to the literature of the subject; in fact, in no coun- try is there a higher authority on the science and the technique of law-making. But what has won him a special place in the affection of Members is his unfailing courtesy to every Member who approached him, his accessibility and the readiness with which he placed his great experience and his knowledge at the disposal of every Member who wished for guidance. For that reason, I feel it will require no more words from me to recommend to the House of Commons the Resolution which stands in its Leader's name.
4.0 P.M.
It is a great pleasure to me to be allowed to associate myself and those for whom I am entitled to speak with the tribute which the Prime Minister asks us to pay to our late Clerk. I have known Sir Courtenay Ilbert ever since I was an undergraduate at Oxford and he was a fellow, one of the most distinguished classical scholars of my own college. Later on, after the distinguished career in India to which the Prime Minister has referred, like many other Ministers and ex-Ministers, I had the advantage for years of his co-operation in the framing and his skilful and dexterous guidance in the piloting of Acts of Parliament through this House. There was no greater master of the art, and, indeed, as the Prime Minister has already suggested, his name will be always a distinguished name in the annals of those who have been the pioneers in the study of comparative legislation. During the best part of the last twenty years he has sat in that chair, the duties of which are more arduous, more responsible, and more delicate than the world outside knows, and I am sure that I am expressing the universal opinion of the House when I say that he has worthily maintained its great traditions. It is fitting that at a moment like this, when he has ceased to be able to continue his invaluable services to the House and to the country, that we should all of us, from the youngest to the oldest Member, join in an expression of gratitude for the efficiency and dignity with which he has discharged the great office, of gratitude for his unvarying personal courtesy to every one of us, and of profound regret that the hour has come when we must bid him farewell.
Question put, and agreed to nemine contradicente.
Orders of the Day
Supply
Army Estimates, 1921–22
Order for Committee read.
SIR L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS' STATEMENT.
I beg to move, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
I propose with the permission of the House, to take the opportunity of making a short general statement on the Army Estimates. I should like to have circulated the detailed book with which hon. Members are familiar. Last year it was not possible to compile the book until after the end of the financial year, and I regret to say that this year it is also impossible. The book is in course of preparation, and hon. Members will, I think, agree that the greater detail and the fuller costings which delay will render possible will more than compensate them for having to-day to be asked for a Vote on Account without the full details. Hon. Members will have the book later in the Session, and after they have had an opportunity of digesting its contents they will be able to debate any question which may arise with a more complete study of the details. I have, however, circulated a White Paper, and in that White Paper I have made a short statement which I hope will be sufficient for the purposes of to-day's Debate. In the Vote on Account itself the expenditure is separately stated so that hon. Members in the usual way may be able to call attention to any particular item upon which they desire further and more specific information.
I propose first, to compare this year's Estimates with last year's, and then to review, as shortly as I can, the strength and character of the Army which the money to be voted is intended to provide. Last year the original Estimate, as introduced and passed by the Committee, amounted to £125,000,000, to which must be added £39,750,000 Supplementary Estimate, making a total of £164,750,000. This year I am asking for £106,315,000, which is a reduction of over £58,000,000 on last year's total expenditure. If I left it at that, the comparison would not be quite fair. If the war charges, which are the non-recurrent expenditure; are omitted from both last year's Estimates and from this year's Estimates, the House really will get a fairer comparison of the expenditure on current or ordinary account. Making that comparison, the saving this year is £25,500,000, or, to be absolutely accurate, £25,557,000. I am going to ask the House to follow me while I consider the £106,315,000 for which I am asking under the three natural heads into which it should be divided. First of all, there are the non-recurrent war charges, which, if accurate accounts were kept, as business accounts are kept by commercial firms, would not appear at all in the ordinary expenditure of the year, but would be dealt with in the capital account. These charges altogether amount to £10,702,000, of which £2,000,000 is on the Middle East portion of the Estimates. All these charges arise out of the War. They are really remnants of the War. They include payments such as the amounts due for reinstating rolling stock on the Indian railways, for reinstatement of properties commandeered during the War, and for the reconditioning of ships which have been used for transport. In every case these items, making up the sum of £10,702,000, are really war charges, and have nothing whatever to do with current expenditure.
The second heading to which I call attention is the current expenditure for Army Services in the Middle East, namely, Mesopotamia and Palestine. The current expenditure in the Estimate is £26,500,000, making, with £2,000,000, the non-recurrent capital expenditure, to which I have just referred, a total expenditure for the Middle East of £28,500,000. This is reduced from the original Estimate of £30,000,000. I believe my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Churchill) will be able to make a much greater economy than that sum, and I have therefore taken £1,500,000 into account in making up the Estimates. Hitherto Mesopotamia and Palestine have had no Estimates of their own. This expenditure has been borne entirely on the Army Votes. The amount of the expenditure depends upon policy over which I, as Secretary of State for War, have no special control. Of course, as a Member of the Government I am responsible for the policy that is carried out in the Middle East, as in all other items of policy that the Cabinet carry out, but I am not in any sense the Minister for the Middle East, and I have no special responsibility for this expenditure. If the expenditure had been incurred in India and not in Mesopotamia, it would not have come on the Army Vote at all; it would have been paid for by India, and the Army Votes would not have had to be charged with it. It is proposed, when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies returns from the conferences which he is now holding in Egypt, and when the policy with regard to Mesopotamia and Palestine has been finally settled, that separate Estimates shall be presented by him for the expenditure in the Middle East, and the expenditure now included in the Army Estimates will be repaid by an Appropriation-in-Aid, so that the Army Estimates will be relieved and the Middle East Estimates will be charged with this expenditure. This is not a mere matter of book-keeping; it is something very much more important, because it will restore to the House of Commons a more effective control over expenditure by making the Minister who is actually responsible for the policy himself answerable for the expenditure.
The first and second heads, let me remind hon. Members, amount to just over £37,000,000. That is the non-recurrent, capital expenditure and the expenditure in the Middle East. That leaves the ordinary expenditure of the year at £69,116,500. It is the fashion of some hon. Members in their speeches on the platform—I have noticed it especially of so-called anti-waste meetings—and of some of the newspapers who support them to misrepresent the Army expenditure by comparing the present Estimates with the pre-War expenditure, regardless of the temporarily-increased responsibilities, and regardless also of the difference in the value of money. No comparison is quite fair without many more qualifications than are possible in a sentence or two, but, if a comparison with pre-War expenditure has to be made, it should be made between the current expenditure of £69,000,000 with the pre-War cost of the Army, which, excluding that part of the Estimates which relate to Air, was £27,845,000. If that comparison be made, it will be seen that the present current expenditure on the Army is about two and a half times the pre-War expenditure, and that is more or less the difference in the value of money as between then and now.
And increases of pay.
Of course, the increases of pay are directly due to the depreciation in the value of money. The pay had to be made up to the higher scale in order to make up for the fact that money is not now so valuable. I do not pretend that this comparison has any scientific accuracy, but it is a good deal fairer than most of the comparisons which are made for the purpose of proving extravagance in national expenditure. The real question is whether the expenditure of £69,000,000 is excessive under present conditions, and whether it can safely be reduced. I cannot ask the House to-day to pledge itself to every item of the proposed expenditure. I shall have to justify the expenditure in detail when the full book of Estimates is before the Committee. All I have to do to-day, it seems to me, is to satisfy the House that the Vote on Account is necessary for the purpose. I propose to tell the House in general terms what is the nature of the provision made for the defence of the country. If the House will allow me, I will develop my statement by showing first what has already been done towards changing the Army from one based upon compulsory service to one based upon voluntary service. I will tell the House how far we have succeeded in recruiting the Regular Army and its reserve, and then I will deal with our second line, the Territorial Army and Yeomanry, dwelling upon the special difficulties which the organisation presents.
I think the House will agree that my predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Secretary for the Colonies, and the Army Council, are to be congratulated upon having so successfully carried out the demobilisation of the Army based upon compulsory service, and at the same time created an Army based upon voluntary service. The transition was necessarily a hazardous operation, if recruiting had failed or been delayed, so that it was in practice simultaneous with the demobilisation of the old compulsory Army. A gap might have occurred which the House will realise would have been full of risks for the safety of the country and the Empire. The period of transi- tion has been successfully bridged by the foresight and energy of my right hon. Friend. We have at this moment a Regular Army of 17,000 officers and 206,000 other ranks, making a total of 223,000. On the 31st of this month 16,000 of other ranks are due for discharge, so that we shall start the new financial year with 201,000 officers and other ranks. Thé Estimates provide for an average throughout the year of 192,500 officers and other ranks, and for the numbers being reduced by 31st March, 1922, to 186,000. Still again on that date there are 16,000 more of other ranks due for discharge, so that the numbers on 1st April, 1922, will be 170,000. This represents a reduction of 53,000 in little over a year.
In order to provide even for these numbers out of the reduced Vote for which I am asking, it has been necessary to make some serious sacrifice. A severe comb-out is being undertaken throughout the various Departments and commands with the view of reducing the number of officers employed. There are about 7,000 officers employed in excess of pre-War strength. Many of these are temporary officers holding administrative posts, and it is thought that a reorganisation of duties would enable a large reduction to be made. This question is being very searchingly examined by a Committee set up by my predecessor, over which my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary (Sir A. Williamson) presides. The Committee has been sitting for some time, and it already sees its way to a reduction of 2,200 officers. It is expected that it will be possible to dispense with the services of several hundred more before the Committee has finished its labours. The second economy to which I would refer arises from the decision to disband four cavalry regiments. I am quite sure the House will share my feeling of sadness that it should be necessary to terminate the existence of regiments who for so many years have served their King and country so well. To destroy a regiment, proud of its past services, conscious of its continuing vitality, a regiment which is more to its members than a college or school, is a most serious step. Generation after generation has been attached to the regiment and has maintained its traditions. But I am confronted by the fact that if a reduction is to be made four regiments of cavalry can be spared more easily and more safely than any other arm of the service. Man for man it is the most expensive arm of the service, and disbanding four regiments of cavalry means a saving of over £400,000 a year. Our duty, as I see it, is to make the money go as far as we can, and to retain only those arms which are indispensable. Four cavalry regiments have therefore to go. Which regiments?
Never was the choice more invidious! There is no regiment which on its records or on its merits deserves to be doomed. Still four have got to be chosen. We have adopted the principle that the four junior regiments shall be chosen for disbandment: that is the 5th Lancers, raised in 1858, the 19th Hussars, the 20th Hussars, and the 21st Lancers, all raised in 1861. Each of these regiments was originally raised at a much earlier date. Many were disbanded at the end of the War, for which they were raised; and then they were raised again and again disbanded. The dates which I have given are those of the last time that these regiments were raised. From these dates the regiments have had a continuous service. There will be hardships, especially among the senior officers and non-commissioned officers. I shall endeavour to deal as generously as possible with those who suffer. I cannot pretend that none will not suffer. The juniors amongst the officers and other ranks will no doubt be absorbed in other regiments or in the Tank Corps, but some seniors may suffer the loss of reasonable hope of ultimate reward for seniority. I hope we shall be able to deal with them with reasonable generosity.
As I have said, the numbers provided by these Estimates average throughout the year 192,500 officers and other ranks. This leaves little or no margin, having regard to our commitments. Our ultimate aim, as the House knows, is to recreate an expeditionary force of six divisions. The numbers now provided might give one or two divisions after some delay, but the six divisions could not be completed unless and until the reserve is brought up to at least 140,000 men. There are at present 62,000 men in the Army Reserve, and I am proposing to increase that number this year up to 80,000. The six divisions cannot be maintained in the field unless the new militia is recruited to a considerable extent so as to supply the necessary drafts. We are still, therefore, very far from having an Army as complete as the pre-War Army. My predecessor had to choose whether he would endeavour to fill up the Army Reserve and the militia to provide a Regular Army equal to the pre-War expeditionary force, or whether he would preserve the cadres of the 14 divisions of the Territorial Army, and endeavour to fill up its ranks. On that I entirely agree that the recruiting for the militia would interfere with recruiting for the Territorial Army. He deliberately, and as a matter of policy, took the course that the circumstances of the time seemed to justify, of having a smaller expeditionary force in order that he might gain a second line of Territorials at an earlier moment.
I propose to deal with the Territorial Army and the Yeomanry in some greater detail. In this year's Estimate I am asking for a cash sum of £5,200,000 for the Territorial Army and the Yeomanry. This amount will make provision for reaching a strength of 210,000 officers and other ranks before the end of the year. As the House is aware, the Territorial Army is being organised as our second line, intended to be modelled on the Regular Army, and equipped and organised so as to provide 14 divisions complete, with a cavalry division, with army and corps troops. Divisional and brigade commanders and their staffs, all of whom are officers distinguished in the War, have been appointed, and the general staff has planned the conversion of the old Territorial Force and the Yeomanry regiments into infantry, cavalry, artillery, engineers, signallers, army service corps, ambulance, ordnance, and the other units which are necessary to make a self-contained division fit to take the field. Of course, if we had more money at our disposal we could afford yeomanry and additional battalions outside the strict necessities of the divisional organisation, and we could then give a choice to the members of the old battalions and regiments, and allow them to choose whatever arm of the service they might prefer. We have not got the money to spare, and even at the risk of disappointing many who would prefer to carry on in their old units of infantry or cavalry, we have had to say to them, "Show your patriotism in another form; we know you would prefer to continue in the infantry or cavalry, but it is not cavalry that is wanted, it is artillery." We are asking them to convert themselves into artillery.
I admit that we are making a great call upon the patriotism of officers and men of this volunteer force, but I am glad to say we have obtained and are obtaining a magnificent response. Of 236,000 of all ranks required to complete the establishment of these 14 divisions we have already obtained over 100,000. We have arrived at the half-way mark. It really means that each man in the Territorial Army has only to get one recruit to join in order that we may have our establishment complete. I wish to impress upon the House that the real value of the Territorial Army depends upon it being properly balanced in all its units. Neither infantry nor cavalry could go into action without artillery. Therefore we have had to ask many yeomanry regiments once more to come to the service of their country in a different form, either as artillery or motor machine-gun units. Before the War there were 55 yeomanry regiments. Only 10 of these are now required as cavalry. Probably eight will form part of the Second Cavalry Division, and two will be used as Army troops. One yeomanry regiment has been disbanded at its own request, which leaves 44 regiments not required as cavalry in the formation of the new Territorial Army.
In order to make this Army self-contained and able to take the field a much larger proportion of artillery is required over and above the pre-War strength of the Territorial artillery, and, in addition, signal and armoured car companies are required. Of the forty-four surplus yeomanry regiments, thirty have already agreed, most patriotically, to convert into the arm required, and very great progress is being made by them. Fourteen of the old yeomanry regiments have not yet seen their way to convert, and they have been permitted to reconstitute themselves temporarily as cavalry for a period of two years with a view to subsequent conversion into artillery or armoured car units. It was felt that this would give time to the officers and men to realise the position, and the great need for their services in one or other of the other arms. One half of the period of two years has already expired, and as there is a disposition on the part of some of these regiments to press for a revision of policy, and uneasiness on the part of others who have accepted conversion lest they have been prejudiced by doing what they were asked to do, it is necessary that the position should be denned. As I said, only ten yeomanry regiments are required as cavalry. My predecessor decided that these should be the ten senior yeomanry regiments. If, however, any one of these regiments fails to make substantial progress in recruiting by the end of the year it may have to be replaced by another yeomanry regiment which has made better progress towards filling its establishment. This policy is in accordance with the statement made by my right hon. Friend in December last. Six of these ten senior yeomanry regiments are already up to strength, and I have not the slightest doubt that the remaining four will complete their establishment before the end of the year, so that I must warn every yeomanry regiment that there is only a very slight possibility of their being required to take the place of one of the ten if any one of the ten fails. The yeomanry which have not yet converted and which are remaining as cavalry on the 31st March next year will be given the alternative of converting into artillery or armoured car companies or disbanding. Of course these regiments will be given an opportunity of converting at any time previous to that date, and I hope that they will convert now, or as soon as may be, without waiting for the expiration of the two years' grace.
The suggestion that any addition to the first ten who have recruited up to their full strength should be allowed to remain as cavalry cannot, I think, be accepted. I do not think it would be justifiable to spend public money upon a unit which is not actually required for defence, and I hope the yeomanry will recognise that in a time of financial stringency, when it is necessary, as never before, to husband our resources, and when even the regular cavalry is being reduced, it would not be justifiable to retain yeomanry in excess of requirements, and that the only alternative to conversion must be breaking up or disbandment of regiments which are the pride and glory of their country. I cannot close my reference to the Territorial Army without expressing my gratitude to Lord Peel, the Undersecretary of State, who specially represents this arm on the Army Council, and to Lord Scarborough, to whose energy and sagacious administration we owe the present position of the Territorial Army.
Perhaps the House would like me to indicate the policy underlying some of the items of expenditure. I do not wish to weary hon. Members with any great details, as I shall have an opportunity of dealing with specific items which may be challenged later on. I will deal first with a new arm of the Service. We are asking for £500,000 for the provision of improved forms of tanks. Our aim is to develop a light tank to co-operate with the infantry, a fast-moving, powerful tank which would be more effective than cavalry. Experiments are being made with cooling devices to enable tanks to be used in tropical countries and with tractors and transporters capable of moving across country. Attached to the Tank Corps are the armoured cars. At present there are twelve armoured car companies, each with twelve armoured cars, and more companies are now in course of formation. The ultimate practical use of tanks and armoured cars and their relation to the other arms of the service has not yet been finally Settled. The general view is that mechanical means of fighting must be developed to the fullest extent. The cost of maintenance in peace time is less, and the economy of man power in actual warfare is likely to be greater. In the course of the year an experimental brigade will be assembled at Aldershot whose duty it will be to try to discover the best methods of the employment of tanks and armoured cars, infantry, and aeroplanes in conjunction with each other. The Staff College are now engaged in examining and setting the problems which have to be solved. Then there has been a great development in signals. The Royal Corps of Signals has a strength of 202 officers and 4,209 other ranks. It has been formed at an estimated cost in this year's Estimates of £1,100,000. The wider fronts and greater mobility of armies in war have rendered necessary better means of communication. The development of wireless telegraphy and other highly tech- nical methods of communication has supplied the means, and the result is the Royal Signal Corps which has been established for the purpose.
Let me briefly mention one or two things which have been done to improve the conditions of service and which, I think, are making the Army more attractive. Years ago, when I was a Private Member and when my right hon. Friend opposite (Major-General Seely) was occupying the position which I now occupy, I called attention oh many occasions to the scandalous treatment that was meted out to the families of men married off the strength. Just before the outbreak of war my right hon. Friend set up a committee which reported upon that subject, and the general results of that committee justify the hardest things which have been said about the then prevailing conditions. These conditions, I am thankful to say, are gone for ever. Certain increased lodging and other allowances are made to every officer over 30 who is married, and since October of last year a marriage allowance has been made to every soldier over 26 who is married. The State has thus recognised that officers over 30 and soldiers over 26 may be expected to be married, and it no longer refuses to recognise the increased responsibility that marriage brings. We are going a good deal further. I am asking for a Vote of £171,000 in this year's Estimates for building married quarters for officers and men, and for bringing old married quarters up-to-date. Of course, this may seem a large sum of money, but, looking at it from the point of view of the State as a model employer, it is not half the amount that could reasonably be spent. In many baracks the accommodation is insufficient, and in some it is deplorably below any modern standard. Moreover, new stations have been rendered necessary by new arms of the service and by the greater numbers of stores, and at these stations and also at the new schools there are no married quarters of any sort whatever. Accommodation in the houses in the neighbourhood is not readily obtainable, and I have not the slightest doubt that the shortage of houses has caused great hardship to both officers and men.
I have only a few more words I want to address to the House, and they are about the responsibility which rests upon the Army at this moment. I want to emphasise what I have already said in a Memorandum accompanying the Vote, that these Estimates are virtually Peace Estimates, or, more accurately, they do not provide for any increased expenditure which would arise if hostilities broke out in any of the various parts of the globe in which our troops now are. They provide rather for a gradual reduction with improved international relations. Some critics in the Press have urged that the pre-War strength is too high to-day. They say that the Army should be still further reduced. But I am not by any means sure that they take into account sufficiently the duties which the Army has to perform. Let me very briefly remind the House what they are. In Ireland at this moment we have 51 battalions of infantry, seven cavalry regiments, 32 batteries of artillery, four Royal Engineer field companies and three signal companies. These units are not, of course, all up to full strength, but they compose the majority of the troops which are at home. They are carying out a duty which of all others is most distasteful to the soldiers; they are engaged in supporting the civil power, and in one large area they are administering martial law. Remember what these soldiers are. For the most part they are young fellows with a very few months' service. And yet they have proved themselves steady and reliable in the face of the utmost provocation. At any moment they may be fighting for their lives, not against an open foe, but against men lurking behind hedges, ready to fire without challenge, or else against men posing as civilians in the streets, waiting for the opportunity of shooting them down when they are released, unarmed, for a few hours from their active duty. These young voluntary soldiers are braving these perils, and yet maintaining the discipline of seasoned troops. Can the number of troops in Ireland be reduced? Is there any legitimate economy to be made there? I am constrained to answer, "No; not until the cause of the trouble is removed, not until the people of Ireland cease to make illegitimate war upon this country."
Then in Constantinople and the neighbourhood we have two British Infantry battalions, four Indian battalions, one British Cavalry Regiment and some artillery and other units. This force is em- ployed as part of an Allied force to which our Allies are contributing still greater numbers. They cannot be reduced at present; indeed, they might have to be reinforced, and therefore some reserves have to be held in the East available to reinforce the troops at Constantinople or in Egypt or the Middle East. The outlook at the moment is somewhat brighter. If the Turkish and Greek Governments accept the Treaty of Sevres with the modifications proposed at the recent Conference, then we may hope for a more settled state of things in Turkey and for a reduction in the number of troops that have to be kept there. But even if we succeeded in bringing back troops from Constantinople within a few months it would not make a great deal of difference to the Estimates of this year, because there will be the cost of transporting the troops, and, with regard to the Indian troops, there will be their pay for several months afterwards, which is included in the cost of demobilisation. Let me say a word or two about Egypt. We have in Egypt seven battalions of British Infantry, two of Indian Infantry, one British Cavalry Regiment besides artillery and other units. A very substantial reduction of troops in Egypt has recently been ordered, and 10,000 Indian troops and 2,000 British troops are being sent home. Further reductions must of course depend upon the result of the negotiations which are about to open. I hope an agreement will be come to, and that a further reduction in troops may be possible, or at least that a reduction in the cost to the British Exchequer may result. But until some agreement is come to, it is quite impossible to reduce the number of troops. As hon. Members know, it is only two years ago that British troops there had to be reinforced by the retention of Australians, and until the result of the negotiations is known no further reductions can take place.
I come to the Rhine. We have eight battalions of infantry, one regiment of cavalry, and some artillery, and other units. These troops again form part of an Allied army; their number is fixed by agreement with our Allies who, here also, supply very much larger numbers than we supply. Four battalions out of these eight have recently been moved to Upper Silesia, pending the plebiscite there, and some cavalry and tanks have formed part of the troops that occupy Dusseldorf. Who can prophecy when these troops can be recalled? Who, indeed, can say that they will not have to be reinforced? It is true that the costs of the Army of occupation are supposed to be paid by Germany. But even if they are paid, or when they are paid, by Germany, the payments will not come in relief of the Army Estimates. They will be paid to the Treasury and not received as appropriations in aid; so that it will not reduce the sum that I have to ask for. I need only remind the House that there is India, and the north-west frontier of India, which requires constant attention. India herself is not free from the unrest which the War and the economic conditions caused by the War have produced throughout the world. I do not want to paint a gloomy picture; I only want to remind hon. Members who think that these demands are excessive and that the number of troops ought to be still further reduced, that great responsibilities exist and that hon. Members should not lose sight of them when pressing for further reductions. I can only say that the Army Council is fully aware of the urgent necessity for national economy. They will willingly co-operate in cutting off any avoidable or unnecessary expenditure. But they hope the House and the country will recognise that there is a point beyond which it would be unsafe to cut so long as to-day's liabilities are unliquidated.
I am sure I speak on behalf of all the Members of this House who have listened to my right hon. Friend when I say that we congratulate him on his lucidity and grasp of his subject. He has had very little time to make himself acquainted with one of the most difficult and trying of all the positions which are held by His Majesty's Ministers. We are quite certain that with his courtesy, his ability, and his lucidity, he will discharge the duties of that office as successfully as the other duties which he has undertaken under the Crown. He can indeed be assured in this of the general good will and encouragement of the House. Before I proceed, may I say, rather on a point of Order, that it is the old established, historic practice that in moving the Speaker out of the Chair, Members of this House, as representing the people of the country, are supposed to ask for a redress of grievances before that operation is completed. Before they can do that they are entitled to have the facts before them in the shape of the full Army, Navy or other Estimates. During the War, of course, that practice fell into disuse, but it is quite time that we resumed it. Last year I understand that the reason given was that the accounts were being reorganised in some different form, and that, therefore, it was not competent for the authorities to comply with the old-established and well-founded practice. But we find the same thing happening again this year. One could here raise a point of Order and impose some delay—I do not wish to do that for a moment, because obviously the needs of the Executive with regard to finance are so great that any obstacle in their way is a very serious matter indeed—but I do raise it as a House of Commons point, and I hope it will be placed on record that due notice has been taken by His Majesty's Opposition of this practice, which ought to be discontinued at the earliest possible moment. I hope that next year, at any rate, full Army Estimates will be laid before the House before the Motion is made which is now before us. I do not intend to deal with the wide range of topics upon which my right hon. Friend has touched in his comprehensive survey. I will just deal with one topic before coming to my main object in addressing the House. I should like to express my satisfaction that such progress has already been made with regard to the reconstitution and reorganisation of the Territorial forces. But that has been accompanied, I think, by a totally unnecessary disregard of local desires and conditions. Where there has been a splendid, almost efficient response to demands for service in old-established infantry units, the whole of the tradition which has grown up for years, and has been consecrated by splendid services on the battlefield, has been ruthlessly disregarded, and some entirely new service substituted. In the county of Peebles, where there were recruited right through the War thousands of men connected with the 8th Battalion of the Royal Scots, the whole of that tradition has gone by—and what have they substituted? A howitzer battery which there is the greatest possible difficulty in recruiting, and which is alien to all their traditions. This is not at all helpful to the development of the Territorial force. Having made this protest, I pass from that; I hope my right hon. Friend will give consideration to what I think is a real grievance and disservice to the Territorial branch of the Army.
5.0 P.M.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, I think it was last December, said that if economies were to be effected they would have to make great cuts—I think that was his word—in the Army and the general defensive forces of the country. My right hon. Friend started his speech yesterday with a note of congratulation that he had effected a reduction of, I think, about £58,000,000. But his well-known fairness subsequently asserted itself, and he promptly cut that down to £25,000,000. The right hon. Gentleman has not told us exactly how he arrived at that, but perhaps he will do so when he comes to reply. I propose to endeavour to show to the House that even the reduction of £25,000,000, to which he refers, is not likely to be realised. The first point we should bear in mind is, that these figures with which my right hon. Friend has been dealing are estimates as to what he thinks the Army will cost in the coming year. I invite him and those who are good enough to do me the honour of listening to me to take the test of current expenditure. The current expenditure is the real test of what the Army is going to cost in the new financial year. Let us wipe out from our minds, if that test be agreed, all the terminal War charges and War realisations. If we do that, and keep our mind very definitely on the question of the current expenditure, we shall find out what the normal machine has cost us during the year ending on the 31st of this month, and what it may cost us in the year we are about commencing. Having laid that down, I hope my right hon. Friend will agree with it. Let us see how we stand in the matters which are before us. The statement in the Vote of Account, on page 2, shows a net total of £106,315,000, but the current net expenditure is the total of two figures—Mesopotamia and Palestine, and that comprehensive word "elsewhere." The current expenditure estimate for Mesopotamia and Palestine is £26,496,500, and "elsewhere" is £69,500,000, making a total of £95,613,000. That is my right hon. Friend's estimate for the new financial year, and he compares with that the figure of £121,170,000 for last year, but in December there was a Supplementary Estimate which, the House will remember, ran to a total of £39,750,000.
Let me go back to the original Estimate submitted by my right hon. Friend's predecessor last year. What do I find? I find the total Estimate was £125,000,000. As we know, that turned out to be £164,750,000. That was the actual cost. I want, however, to find out the Estimate of the current expenditure last year, and I think I can find it out by deducting from the £125,000,000 the corresponding head which would include War charges and War realisations. The Estimate then was £27,307,000, and, by deducting £27,307,000 from £125,000,000, I find that his Estimate last year for current expenditure was £97,693,000. His Estimate this year for current expenditure is £95,613,000. My submission to the House and to my right hon. Friend therefore is that the saving is not £58,000,000, nor £25,000,000, but somewhere about £2,000,000. I am ruling out terminal War charges and War realisations. I challenge my right hon. Friend upon it. I put to the House this simple sum. If £97,000,000 turned into £121,000,000 last year, what is £95,000,000 likely to turn into this year? You have the same factors, Mesopotamia, Palestine, Egypt, Ireland, and Government Orders in operation all over the world. What is its policy likely to cost in the coming year? I see no change in the spirit or policy of the Government which entitle us to expect otherwise. We shall have similar conditions during the coming year. It is not a question, as my right hon. Friend said, of niggling here or paring there; it is a question of your policy. What is your policy going to be? I come down to that simple position and, until it is displaced, I shall hold on to it.
I challenge His Majesty's Government that there is no real saving in the Army Estimates at all. The situation is drifting in a totally different way. We shall be face to face with huge Supplementary Estimates again. Does anyone doubt it? I shall be more than delighted if I am absolutely and entirely wrong, because the financial position of the country is one of the most serious kind. £950,000,000 has gone completely by the board already. The Estimates we have will run into well over £1,000,000,000. I suggest there is no use deceiving us. Why should we deceive ourselves, especially in financial matters? Let us face the fact that with the Government's handling of things there will be very little reduction in the cost of the Army in the year which we are about to enter.
My right hon. Friend spoke of deductions. Last year we hoped that 525,000 men would be reduced by 280,000. I find to-day they will only be reduced to 341,000. I find in the figures which are before us that they hoped they would be reduced to 235,000, but the whole of my right hon. Friend's speech implied further demands. He took a most gloomy view of Ireland; he was not in the least cheerful about it. He was somewhat less gloomy and a smile irradiated his countenance when he referred to the Colonial Secretary's mission to the Middle East, but one remembers this about the late Secretary of the War Office, that, whatever may be the result of his missions either at home or abroad, they always cost more money, and I advise my right hon. Friend in dealing with the Estimates to bear that fact well in mind. What has he gone out for? He has gone out to reorganize the Middle East in the interests of economy. There never was a less hopeful missionary despatched on a difficult and arduous task.
I really must protest against the position which the Government has taken up, and with which my right hon. Friend, of course, is bound to ally himself, that you are going to place under the Colonial Office a slice of the War Office. I wonder what the soldiers think about it? My right hon. Friend hopes that there is going to be an Appropriation-in-Aid of the expenses of the Middle East. As far as the taxpayer is concerned, there is no satisfaction to him that he has to pay the Bill whether presented by the Secretary for the Colonies or by the Secretary of War if the amount be the same. I am rather inclined to charge my right hon. Friend with this sort of little silly attempt to conceal the real fact. It does not deceive anybody at all. What is the use of saying there is going to be another Appropriation-in-Aid? The taxpayer has to foot this Bill now. I protest with all the force I can against the whole policy of tacking on to the Colonial Office a War Department. It is madness. I feel fairly certain that such a scheme as that cannot commend itself in the interests of economy, sound policy, or of effective military administration. I wish my right hon. Friend could have told us how the reductions at the War Office are arrived at. If he anticipates a reduction, as he does, of 235,000 men from the present number of 341,000, why is it that he still requires that the War Office staff should be increased fom 350 to 366 in 1921–22?
There are interesting items on the departmental side of the War Office to which I invite my right hon. Friend's attention. There is an increase in the military police, there is an increase in the ordnance corps, an increase in the pay corps, and there is an increase in the Royal Army Medical Service. There may be sound and good reasons for these increases. There is also an increase in the number of chaplains, though I understand that there is no increase in the pay. These are rather minor points, upon which I do not desire to detain the House further. There are others who will be competent to speak on the military side. I am not, but I would urge upon my right hon. Friend that he should not allow himself to be led away from the facts of the situation, namely, that the policy of His Majesty's Government in Mesopotamia, Palestine, the Middle East and Ireland must develop in the future increased charges on the already overburdened citizens of this country. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned that charges have increased two-and-a-half times as compared with the pre-War period. But will he bear in mind that, while the value of money has altered to that degree, the taxpayer is at least two-and-a-half times less able to bear the burden?
I desire to draw attention to some of the military problems which arise from the Estimates which the Secretary of State has put before us. Before doing so, I should like to repeat what has already been said from these Benches, and to say how cordially every Member of the House, irrespective of party, wishes the right hon. Gentleman well in what, as I myself know, is one of the most arduous posts that a man can fill. I congratulate him on being able, on acceding to his high position, to do such a really good turn to the Army as that of providing proper arrangements for the married soldier and the married officer. Too long has it been the case that we have regarded the soldier or the officer as a man who, if he gets married, must shift for himself. That has amounted practically to discouragement of marriage in a profession which ought to be the most honourable of all. Looking through these provisional Estimates, I do not think that, except, perhaps, for one item, anyone would have known that we had ever had a war. My criticism of these Estimates is that they are framed with the desire to bring them back, not only to the pre-War level of expenditure, but also to the pre-War system. In these Estimates the lessons of the War have either been forgotten or ignored. The chief lesson, of course, is that for efficiency and economy you must view the problem of defence as one. We see no sign here that the Navy, the Air Force and the Army are all treated as one problem. I am sure that, if they were, great and drastic changes would be found in the whole framing of the Estimates.
Economy of force.
Yes, you can only get economy of force if you regard the whole problem as one, and that has not been done. They work in watertight compartments. What can be done from the sea by new methods, what can be done from the air, is practically ignored. Is it not certain that, if the Estimates which I presented in 1914 were wisely and properly drawn as regards the numbers of infantry, guns, cavalry and other arms, then that must be absolutely wrong now, because the War showed us, as it progressed, that fresh problems brought about by the advance of science had completely upset all previous calculations. I can see, in looking through these Estimates—having been through them very often in days gone by—the determination of the worthy gentlemen who work under my right hon. Friend at the War Office to bring the thing down to the pre-War standard. That must be wrong and must be extravagant. It is extravagant in money, because you are not taking advantage of new inventions, but, above all, it is extravagant in human life. I would beg the right hon. Gentleman, when he is going through these Estimates, always to keep in mind one fateful and fatal day in the history of the British Empire—the 1st July, 1916. On the 1st July, 1916, the greatest Army that this country had ever produced, or probably ever will produce, and the finest and the best, from lack of appreciation of the true elements of warfare as advanced by recent science, along the whole length of front from about halfway up to where we joined the French, melted away before German science. I well remember, on the morning before that day, looking down on the positions below. It happened to be my duty to know what the plans for the advance were, and, had that advance been successful, those whom I had the honour to command would have gone very much beyond ten or twenty miles. Wiser people than myself pointed out that that was on the assumption that the Germans had not learned anything since the War began. But they had; they had brought science to their aid, and that marvellous force, on three or four miles of front, literally welted away. That is the penalty of not applying original thought to the problems of war, and there is no evidence of that original thought in the Estimates which we are now about to pass.
My protest—and it is a protest conceived in every spirit of good will to my right hon. Friend and to the great office over which he presides—is not with regard to the cost in money, of which I do not desire, nor am I qualified, to speak to-day, but as to the cost in human life. It will be said that these are very general charges. It is not the time to develop them in any detail, and I will only say that, apart from the giving of the title "Royal" to the Signal Corps—which is truly a well-earned distinction for that corps, not only on account of what it has done, but on account of the enormous and greatly growing importance of the signal arm—a certain number of tanks, and the promise of some manœuvres at Aldershot, we do not see any sign that advantage is being taken of modern science. I do not wish to dwell upon this, because it is not a subject that is very suitable for prolonged or open debate; but I know that some of my hon. Friends, in the course of the Debate, are going to urge upon the Secretary of State that a Committee similar to the Esher Committee should be appointed, to inquire impartially and advise the Government as to how far existing establishments are really adapted to modern conditions. I heartily commend that to my right hon. Friend, and I hope that something of that kind will be done. If it is not, the tragedies of the past will be repeated in the future. For the last few months in the War I was President of the Tank Corps, and was also head of the Inventions Department, while my right hon. Friend was in that great Ministry of Munitions, which was then producing vast amounts of ammunition and of appliances to be used during the War. I shall not be accused of not being a friend of the tank, but, while I have pleaded, wherever I have had the chance, for the application of science to war, I would add that, taking all that into account, and especially with a view to it, I believe that the right hon. Gentleman and his advisers are entirely wrong in thinking that they can substitute tanks for cavalry, and in supposing it to be a wise thing to make the first beginning of envisaging the possibilities of modern science by reducing the percentage of cavalry. That seems to me to be a most extraordinary misreading of the lessons of the War.
It seems to me that it would be the most extraordinary misconception of the truth to imagine that, in applying science to war, the first thing to get rid of is the horse. On the contrary, every advance in science has made the horse a more and more indispensable weapon of war. Heavy artillery fire, heavy machine-gun fire, gas, aeroplane observation—all of these make rapid movement more essential. It has nothing to do with the old controversies about the arme blanche, but the only thing yet invented that can move swiftly under the conditions is the man in seven-league boots—in this case the horse. To proceed to reduce your mounted mobile army seems to me the most mistaken course to adopt. I happened to be present at the beginning of the War on the Western Front, and I do not think that anyone who was there will dispute the thesis that, if it had not been for the British cavalry, the British Army would have been destroyed. If it had not been for the British and French cavalry, the Germans would, without doubt, have entered Paris, and probably would have finished the War out of hand. Turning to another of the theatres of war, with which my hon. and gallant Friend below the Gangway (Sir C. Townshend) is the most familiar of any one, can we not truly say that in Palestine and Mesopotamia it was the need of mobile troops that was felt most urgently all through, and that, when the victory came and Turkey was crushed, the crushing of Turkey—apart from the offices of my hon. and gallant Friend in inducing the Turks to accept an armistice sooner than they might otherwise have done—was due entirely to the rapid movement of cavalry? To turn back to the Western Front, the cavalry suffered from the fact that the two commanders-in-chief were both cavalry men. The Navy would never have received the splendid tribute which it did from Sir Ian Hamilton for its work in Gallipoli, if the operations had been commanded by a sailor. You only get true praise of an arm from one who does not belong to it, and because of his desire to be impartial. In the same way, in the case of our Army on the Western Front, I think that the achievements of the cavalry never received their due recognition. I have said that we should have lost the War at the very beginning if it had not been for the cavalry, and I have here a letter, which I think I may quote, written by a very great soldier. He wrote: of cavalry, with a view to seeing whether they could. I have been in action with tanks very often, and everyone knows that the objection to the tank, though it has great value—
The land mine.
—is first that the antidotes are very soon found. But another thing is that the tank may take a position, but it has no means of holding it. Your mobile force can not only take a position, but can hold it against all comers. The possibilities of co-operation between cavalry and aeroplanes had only just begun to be explored when the War came to an end. I commend that to my right hon. Friend as one of the subjects which this Committee, if it is set up, may well explore. I have dealt with this aspect of the question because I have given so many years of my life to the study of these problems, and I earnestly hope and pray that our soldiers may have the best chance in the next war, and it is only by absolutely sweeping away preconceived ideas that we can give them that good chance should there ever again come the day of stress and battle.
I am not for a moment sailing under the banner of Anti-Waste—I have never preached Anti-Waste; I have even had the joy of seeing myself proclaimed as a waster—although I certainly tried my hardest to save that £50,000,000 a year in Mesopotamia. I should like to endorse many things that my right hon. Friend has said. With regard to the tank question, it may interest the House to know that a few days ago I dined at Paris with General Mangeant, one of the leading generals of the day, and Gourand and Castelnau, and the whole talk was of these tanks and what modern war was going to be. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will pardon me going into a small anecdote like this because it is very much up-to-date—I think as much up-to-date as you can get. They said the day of the tank was past. They said the Germans had found the antidote at the end of the War. They strewed mines in the way of approaching tanks like you do at sea—small land mines. Up goes your tank. It was extremely hard to get the tanks on at the end. Everyone knew the game of the tanks was up. For dealing with civil war, riots, rebellion and so forth, the tank is an excellent thing. It would be excellent in India and might do in certain cases in open deserts and on hard sand in Palestine and Mesopotamia, but do not rely on your tanks in Germany to-day.
The right hon. Gentleman (Sir D. Maclean) has struck the right note. It is not a question of spending this and that. I can quite understand the difficulties of making both ends meet. I am quite in sympathy with right hon. Gentlemen with regard to the vast calls they have upon them now, but I want to give two short examples about what I have heard called the Army of the Black Sea. I believe we have a Commander-in-Chief of the Army of the Black Sea, and I cannot understand how he can be called by that title. I expect the right hon. Gentleman will say he has 6,000 men at most. That would be a very moderate Army of the Black Sea, but it affords food for reflection. Why was that force landed and why was Constantinople occupied? That is the policy which has caused all this trouble in Turkey. They had no business to land a single marine in Constantinople. We had a powerful fleet in the Dardanelles and a fleet in the Sea of Marmora. What need to land a single marine from the fleet at Constantinople, unless it was a corporal of marines to send the officers' washing once a week. There you had Constantinople under your guns. A single cruiser anchored opposite the Sultan's palace and all Turkey was in your hands. Not only was it a strategical blunder; it was also a tactical error, because you never put troops in a city when you want to menace it. If I had a General who put troops into a large city like Constantinople, with its tortuous streets and Mohammedan population, I should say without a moment's hesitation that he was not fit for his job. When you want to menace a city you place your force outside the city, menacing it with your guns at punching range. That is your A B C principle. It was not only a tactical error, it was also a great political error, because it was calculated to light up not only the whole of Turkey and fanatical Anatolia, but also India. Is it any exaggeration to say it caused all this unrest amongst the Mohammedans in India? Everyone here knows it who read the Aga Khan's speech the other day at the banquet on the departure of Lord Reading. Two days before the Battle of Ctesiphon for some reason all my Mohammedan troops refused to fight, and I was faced with a semi-mutiny on the eve of the battle. Happily, I dealt with it, but there is always this danger. There is no doubt that the occupation of Constantinople has cost us a lot, and it will cost far more. I pray that the Treaty of Sèvres may be adjusted and revised.
I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman if there is any hope of withdrawing these enormous forces from Mesopotamia. Again, I am not talking as an anti-waste candidate. I am simply saying it is a grave strategical blunder. I do not care if you put the whole of the military experts in Europe in front of me. I know many of the accepted ones would heartily agree with me. I know that on the principle of economy of force the whole of that is a ghastly blunder. I will say more. I should like to keep the personal business out of it, but the highest Member in this House, the Prime Minister, complimented me on my speech and was delighted with the sentiments I expressed. I am referring to my first effort on 15th December. He came and told me so. He said, "Why did you not give it them hotter?" I hope I may be pardoned. I am only repeating the words which were actually said to me. I unfolded a plan by which we might hold the whole of Mesopotamia with one division at the maximum of security and the minimum of force. The right hon. Gentleman was gracious enough to be pleased with that plan. I was emboldened after that to send my memorandum to the Prime Minister. So please pardon me if I am unduly earnest and anxious about something being done. It is in no spirit of carping or criticism of the Government that I have got up, but I have that matter at heart, and I heartily wish all luck to the Secretary of State for War in the great task that he has before him.
I should like to associate myself with the remarks which have been made by previous speakers congratulating the right hon. Gentleman on the manner in which he has presented the Army Estimates for the first time. I should like also to associate myself with some of the remarks which have been made to the right hon. Gentleman (Major-General Seely), especially those in which he called attention to the urgent necessity of not considering the problems of Imperial defence in water-tight compartments. This matter has been previously discussed, and the Prime Minister said the matter would receive consideration at the forthcoming Colonial Conference. I beseech him to realise the extreme urgency of considering this problem in its widest aspect, because not one word has been said of any liaison between air, sea and land. I should like to comment on some of the passages in the right hon. Gentleman's speech and also perhaps on some of its omissions. I am certain everyone will deplore the fact that it has been found necessary to do away with four very distinguished regiments. The right hon. Gentleman approached this question with considerable tact and delicacy, and I am certain every word he said will be echoed by every hon. Member who has any interest in the services. One realises perhaps that it is necessary. On the other hand, I cannot help thinking it might have been possible to have retained the cadres of these distinguished regiments and made them capable of rapid expansion in time of war as machine gun regiments. Not a word has been said by the right hon. Gentleman with regard to machine guns. I should have thought there are very few lessons which the late War taught us more important than the great necessity of having a large number of machine guns. Members who were in the field towards the end of the War will recollect the great keenness of divisional commanders and corps commanders to obtain regiments like the Household Cavalry regiments because of the way in which they were equipped as machine gun regiments and because of the great mobility due to their motor transport. The value of such regiments in a high state of efficiency was undoubted. I would urge the Secretary of State not to starve the Machine Gun Corps, but to expand it. It may be said that we shall never have a war like the last War. One speaker has said that the mere fact that you have an army presupposes a potential enemy. If we have an efficient instrument of war, we are more likely, as a pacifically intentioned nation, to reduce the chances of war breaking out again.
In regard to the regiments of Household Cavalry, I am not at all sure that some change in the organisation of the three regiments is not possible. I realise that when one approaches a discussion of regiments which are rich in great traditions, one must approach with extreme delicacy, more especially when any speaker has had the honour of serving in one of those regiments. Efficiency is built up largely of esprit de corps, and esprit de corps is the result of years, and, in this particular case, of centuries, of tradition. In any event, it is built up in the course of years, and by ill-judged criticism or action the result of years of tradition may be destroyed almost in an afternoon. I cannot help thinking that there is room for some change in the organisation of these regiments, which would not only, if that were possible, increase their efficiency, but would also conduce to considerable economy. Instead of having three numerically weak regiments, I would suggest the adoption of one regiment of three squadrons, representing each of the three regiments at present existing, and that this regiment should be up to the war strength. It would also be necessary to have a depot to feed the regiments, and the place which would suggest itself is Windsor. I will state the advantages of this proposal. You would get a unit at war strength ready for immediate action. You would economise in barracks, in the number of officers and in the permanent staff. Not only would you be able to have a large balance over by doing away with one barracks in London, but you would be able to improve the existing accommodation for married N.C.O.'s and men—accommodation which is so very indifferent in London to-day. I welcome heartily the statement as to the improvement of married men's quarters. It is indeed a hardship that married N.C.O.'s and men should have to live in the present uncomfortable conditions. It is far more difficult for married N.C.O.'s and men to find accommodation in London than probably in any other city. I put forward this proposal with regard to the Household Cavalry with great deference. I think it is a matter which should be considered by the Army Council, and, perhaps, even more so by the colonel of these distinguished regiments.
One subject was omitted from the right hon. Gentleman's speech. He did not state whether any decision has been given as to the full dress of the Army. It would be deplorable if only the Household troops were provided with full dress uniform. Whether full dress uniform is a good thing or not, it would be a great mistake to have such a distinction between the cavalry and infantry of the line and the Household troops. On the question of education in the Army, I am sure that we all welcome the great strides that have been made. I am not quite sure whether those strides are welcomed so much by junior officers, who have to acquire the arts of the schoolmaster. There is no doubt that we have a great responsibility in the matter. For years we have encouraged young men to go into the Army and too often we have used the Army only as a school for casual labour. The result of the improved education syllabus which comes into force in July next will be that there will be an opportunity for every young man to acquire a good education, if he has not got it already, and, what is more important, to acquire technical knowledge, so that when he leaves the Army he will not find himself driven into the ranks of casual labour. Does the new syllabus apply to old soldiers or is it only for young soldiers just joining? I notice that the second-class certificate and another certificate require a considerable amount of education. I am not sure whether all hon. Members of this House would be able to pass, off-hand, an examination for a second-class certificate. I find that what is required is a general reading of standard authors, including two or more plays of Shakespeare, algebra, and geometry in all its branches, but not very advanced. It is very desirable that young men should acquire this knowledge, but is the old soldier to be called upon suddenly to close his military career by starting to read the sonnets of Shakespeare? If he does not, it appears to me that he will lose his proficiency pay, for one of the conditions of receiving proficiency pay is that a man should obtain a second-class certificate, and in order to do that, he has to be conversant with two plays of Shakespeare and with other: standard authors. I cannot imagine some of the old soldiers assisting in the quartermaster's stores or places of that kind being hauled out and instructed to study Shakespeare and Euclid. I would like to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the way in which he has presented his Estimates and to wish him all success in his new office.
I wish to associate myself with other speakers in their protest against the abolition of four cavalry regiments. The War has abundantly proved not only the necessity of cavalry, but that the cavalry training is probably the most successful of any branch. If you recollect what were the higher commands in the War, you will know that both the Commanders-in-Chief in France were cavalrymen, that the most successful commander in Egypt, Lord Allenby, was a cavalryman, that two of his corps out of three corps were, commanded by cavalrymen, and that at Salonika out of two corps one was commanded by a cavalry soldier. Apart from that, I know it is the opinion of some of our higher commanders that cavalry will be as useful in future as they have been hitherto. As a mobile reserve you cannot replace cavalry with armoured cars, or tanks, or any other form of locomotion. It is also unlikely that in any future war you will get one flank on the sea, and the other flank on a neutral country. The moment you have a flank you have a use for cavalry which you cannot replace by any means. Where would we have been in the advance on Damascus without cavalry? I happened to command a cavalry brigade in that advance. Most hon. Members will know that 30,000 cavalry were pushed round our left flank and in 36 hours covered 75 miles, entirely cutting the Turkish communications, with the result that we brought about the annihilation of three Turkish armies. That result could have been obtained by no means other than cavalry. If you abolish cavalry regiments you must remember that, unlike infantry, they take a great deal longer time to reconstitute. You cannot turn out anything like an efficient trooper soldier in the cavalry under about three years' training. In the infantry even a few months training may turn out a man sufficiently dependable. I wonder whether in coming to this decision the Army Council consulted such leaders as Earl Haig and Lord Allenby. It would be very interesting if the Secretary of State would give us some information on this subject.
6.0 P.M.
If cavalry regiments are to be abolished, I suggest that one of them should be a household cavalry regiment. It is not that I do not admire the household cavalry. I admire their personnel, their great traditions, their discipline and their smartness. But in modern warfare you do not want heavy men; you want light active men. It is reckoned that a man weighing 10 stone 5 lbs. will in marching order ride somewhere near 19 stone. When you take these men of 6 ft. or more, they will ride something like 22 stone, which is not practicable, and you cannot keep them mounted. My second reason for suggesting that the Household Cavalry should be one of the regiments to be abolished is that you cannot train cavalry in London. The Household Cavalry regiment spends two-thirds of its time either at Knightsbridge or Albany Street Barracks, and there they have not the opportunity for training. Possibly they go to Pirbright for a few weeks, and possibly they send a composite squadron to manœuvres, but that is utterly different from the experience of the ordinary line cavalry regiment, which is always in brigade, and has a proper chance of making itself efficient. While through no fault of their own, but owing to circumstances, the Household Cavalry are not much use as cavalry; they cost more man for man. In coming to your decision to do away with a certain number of yeomanry cavalry, you are quite sure to lose a class of recruit which you will get in no other way. There was no better soldier in the whole Army than that of the yeomanry cavalry; but if regiments are to be abolished, the present suggestion I hardly think is a fair one. You say that the senior ten regiments are to be kept. It is a very debatable point whether the so-called senior ten regiments are the senior or not. Before the War the records of the cavalry were more or less the same. It would be fairer that those yeomanry which first came up to strength should be those which would have the first opportunity of remaining on as cavalry. The right hon. Gentleman said that these regiments, both cavalry and yeomanry, were being cut down from the point of view of economy, and that the Army Council would be glad to cut down any unnecessary expenditure. I see from one of the White Papers that we have in Palestine 3,200 troops and 8,000 in Egypt. I note that a railway line—which I happen to know very well, as I travelled up and down a greal deal during the War—which runs from Cantara on the Suez Canal, up through the desert northwards, it to have £250,000 spent on it. It cannot be wanted in order to supply those 3,000 men in Palestine. If it is wanted, it is wanted for the use of Palestine and Egypt, and I suggest that Palestine and Egypt should pay that £250,000, and that money might very well be saved the British taxpayer.
I join heartily with the hon. and gallant Gentleman for one of the Sussex divisions in the tribute to the right hon. Gentleman for the lucid way in which he brought forward his statement to-day. But I regret that I have to express feelings of disappointment that no greater economy has been effected in the Estimates before us. Frequent protests were made after we commenced the work of demobilisation with regard to the Chinese and other alien labour that was employed on one of our fronts. A very large number of the officers who had great experience of this labour protested very strongly that it should be dispensed with at the earliest possible moment. We find from the Estimates that it has been kept on for nearly two years and that £2,500,000 of the excess now required is due to charges incurred with regard to Chinese labour. It was pointed out over and over again that the work of this labour was worthless, that we were getting no return whatever for the money paid for it and that after hostilities had ceased these men should have been dispensed with at once and sent home as soon as possible and I would like to know why this was not done. On page 3 of the Army Estimates, Command Paper 1136, it is stated that the provision of £69,116,000 was based on the assumption that none of the hostilities we are now engaged in would break out, and the opinion is expressed that there will be no recrudescence or fresh outbreak of hostilities in any other parts of the world so far as we are concerned. I hope that we may some time in future congratulate the present Minister of War on bringing to an end all the small wars in which we are engaged at present.
There is another point with regard to a very large amount in the Estimate. I do not think anyone will charge me with being unpatriotic when I say that we have in the Rhondda Valleys a population of 44,000 capable of being enrolled up to 50 years of age and we have brought 16,000 new men to the Colours and in addition we have 2,000 men who rushed back to the reserve up to the age of 63. A distinguished Member below the Gangway-knows something of what I am talking about. The reason for the disappointment is that at present notwithstanding the circumstances very large provision is being made in the Estimates for spending £471,000 upon new works and buildings in connection with the Army. We have been engaged for the last week or two in approaching all the Departments in connection with the Government of the day. We have at present in the Rhondda Valley 36,000 men out of approximately 50,000 men engaged in the coal trade who are either completely out of work or working less than two days a week. We have been approaching Government Departments to ask for money not by way of a gift but so as to carry on some constructive works which we have already obtained authority to carry out. But each Department has told us that there is no money to be got. The Transport Department, the Treasury and every other Department say that they cannot raise money although we have all these men idle on our hands, and when these Estimates become public there will be a feeling of keen disappointment that this vast sum of money is now to be spent regarding the Army in the years 1920–21–22. I would certainly urge every possible economy in that direction and I would support the suggestion made, I think, by the right hon. and gallant Member for Ilkeston (Major-General Seely) that a Commission should be appointed on the same lines as the Esher Commission 10 or 12 years ago. We have obtained a great deal of knowledge and experience from the Great War and we ought to profit to a large extent by inquiry on the same lines. We do not want to sacrifice human life, we can save a great deal of it. I hope I shall not be understood to mean that I do not want this country to be protected up to the hilt. But I think probably we are wasting some of the money, and I would heartily support the appointment of a Commission to inquire into the administrative affairs of our Army as it is at present.
I wish to go back a little way in this Debate to the question of mounted forces which was raised by the right hon. Member for Ilkeston. He gave us a history of our mounted forces in reference to their action in the War. I think he omitted to mention a point which might be made, and which emphasised how necessary cavalry is to-day, and will be in a future war. In 1918, when the German line was broken, from motives of humanity the battle was broken off, but if we had carried that battle through to its logical conclusion and utilised our cavalry they would have gone into Germany and would have gone to the gates of Berlin, and this House would not now be passing Bills to secure an indemnity, as we were yesterday. They would have been secured then at the point of the sword. I do not think that one realises what an influence the average cavalry non-commissioned officer had throughout the Army. I had the honour to serve in the infantry in the War. Wherever I went I found subalterns in various battalions who had been privates or sergeants in British cavalry regiments, and in the yeomanry, too, and wherever you went among the regimental ranks you found commanders of battalions and companies ex-cavalry officers and ex-yeomanry officers who had changed their arm. I do not think that that shows that their training is one which should not be kept, and which has not a useful effect on the entire Army.
There is one point about this reduction which fills me with considerable alarm. The Secretary of State grew very mournful over the fact that he had to reduce four cavalry regiments, and that only sheer financial necessity made him do so. I suppose it was a surrender to antiwaste which made him do it, and I suppose he is expecting to receive a pat on the back from various newspapers tomorrow for having so done. Is it a saving? I do not think that this House or the Secretary of State for War can have omitted to notice that last year every cavalry regiment increased its establishment by some 30 men. Therefore, 30 cavalry regiments increased their total by 1,000 men. That is equal to two regiments of cavalry. Last year he put on two regiments of cavalry, not by making new units but by adding to the strength of existing units. Would it not be better, instead of disbanding units with all their traditions and all the associations connected with them, to cut down our establishments of last year and so secure the necessary reduction? I am not at all satisfied that the right hon. Gentleman has gone round to see where reductions in establishment could be made in order to see if it is possible, without incurring any more expenditure, to maintain the four gallant regiments which he proposes to disband. I am afraid that this proposal will not make for confidence in the Army.
Those of us who are interested in the yeomanry also are being filled with considerable alarm. One of my hon. and gallant Friends spoke about recruiting in the yeomanry, and about granting the yeomanry the right to remain as cavalry and in so doing he touched on a thorny topic, and one which the Secretary of State for War ought to deal with. We feel that yeomanry regiments who are in the first ten, and who have not recruited up to their strength, should not be entitled to sit tight and do nothing, simply because they are in the first ten, and be able to secure themselves as cavalry for ever, while others who are outside their regiments would simply give their eyes to get into the first ten, and have proved that they are ready to do so by recruiting up to their strength. I am afraid that the Secretary of State for War does not realise the position of the yeomanry or the Territorials. Competition is the life of the Territorial. If you go to a Territorial battalion you find that "A" Company hates "B" Company, and that everything that "B" Company does is wrong, and you would imagine that they were the greatest of enemies. You will find that "B" Company equally hates "A." While that is a minor affair, you will find that if anyone insults the particular unit to which "A" and "B" belong they are down on you at once. It is the competition between companies, and between units which keeps the whole Territorial force alive. That was the spirit which my right hon. Friend's predecessor started in regard to recruiting for the yeomanry, and that is the spirit which I regret to see the right hon. Gentleman is stopping. He has announced in perfectly plain words, so far as competition is concerned, that that is at an end in order to get into the first ten regiments of yeomanry. I do not want to pursue a matter which might involve him in dispute with his predecessor, but I should like to ask him how his statement to-day can be reconciled with that of the former Minister at the Guildhall three months ago, when he threw competition open to the yeomanry.
This is a serious matter which will react unfavourably on the Territorials. They are apt to be suspicious in any case, and they are extremely sensitive, and when they find decisions being taken which apparently are the decisions of regular soldiers, and they find that those decisions react against their natural instincts, they will be the more suspicious against my right hon. Friend and his régime. In this respect I would ask him whether he can hold out any hope that the yeomanry will be able to keep on serving as cavalry, and that the arm to which they choose to belong will, within reasonable limits, be one in which they may feel secure for some time to come, and that until we have had a Committee which can survey the whole field, no action will be taken which will react on the whole of the Territorial Force and make them more and more suspicious and sensitive and afraid of what the right hon. Gentleman is going to do. I ask the Secretary of State for War to be most careful in his dealings with the yeomanry. They will sacrifice themselves if he asks them, and if he puts the fact before them, but if he attempts to order them about they will fight him, and this will do untold harm.
I should like to follow some of the speakers into the general discussion which has taken place, and I should like especially to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Ilkeston (Major-General Seely) into his very interesting comparison between tanks and cavalry. Like him, I was in France on the 1st July, 1916, in a different and far less distinguished position, and in a different part of the line, and there I formed certain very definite views. I had the honour of being in the first action in which tanks were engaged, on the 15th September, 1916. I have risen to deal with two rather special points. I regard with very great apprehension all this ad- herence to the last machine that has been brought out, just because that machine was successful in the special circumstances of the last War. I saw a certain number of tanks, and undoubtedly tanks were extremely useful, but to say that we must cut down our cavalry and rely on tanks when with our far-flung responsibilities we may have to make war in any part of the world seems to me an extremely unwise policy. I want to speak particularly about the yeomanry, and especially about one unit, and to recall to the House the history of the conversion of the yeomanry. Rather more than a year ago, of the 55 yeomanry regiments the ten senior ones were selected to be kept as cavalry, and the rest were told that they were free to convert into artillery, or machine gun corps, or motor car corps, or to form Special Reserves, or to be disbanded. Subsequently, the alternative of the Special Reserve was withdrawn, and the 45 regiments were faced with the alternative of disbanding or of conversion to a quite different arm, and an arm that was not specially attractive to the class of men in the yeomanry. The yeoman is a particular sort of recruit. The sort of men that join a yeomanry regiment will not join the horse artillery or a machine gun corps or a motor car corps.
From March of last year until the 8th of December things went on, but on the latter date the present Colonial Secretary made a recruiting speech at the Mansion House, and I want the Committee to pay special attention to the circumstances under which that speech was made. At that time recruiting for the ten special yeomanry regiments was bad. Of the ten senior units, on the 1st December, 1920, one had only 60 rank and file, one had only 51 rank and file, and one had only 62 rank and file out of a strength of 248. Therefore between March and December, 1920, several units had made very little effort to fill their establishment up to strength, and it looked as if the scheme was going to break down and that the War Office was not going to get their ten cavalry regiments. Compared with the units which had not made any effort, one unit, which was not included in the ten, was up to strength, namely, the Northumberland Hussars. They were up to strength three months after recruiting started, so that when the present Colonial Secretary made his speech he found that those regiments which ought to have recruited had made very slight attempts to fulfil their obligation, but one regiment outside the ten was up to strength. I hope the House will forgive me if I give a short account of the record of this very distinguished regiment. It was the only yeomanry regiment which took the Imperial Service obligation before the War, and from 1912 or 1913 it was subject to the obligation of Imperial overseas service. It was chosen to go overseas among the first regiments. It went oversea on the 4th October, 1914, and was the first Territorial unit, either infantry or cavalry, in action. It fought all through the first battle of Ypres, it fought on the Somme, it fought at Arras, it fought in the retreat of 1918, and it fought in the advance in 1918. It was again the only cavalry regiment to have two regiments serving at the same time in France.
Altogether, without in the least depreciating the record of any other unit, I think the House will agree that that is a splendid record of service, and, so far as efficiency is concerned, apart from active service, I believe that every General under whose command this unit came took occasion to compliment it. So when the Colonial Secretary made his speech on 8th December these facts must be borne in mind—bad recruiting' among the chosen regiments, very good recruiting of one famous unit, which was not included. The speech was made at the Mansion House, with the Lord Mayor in the Chair, and it was made for the purpose of encouraging recruiting, and at the time, the War Office, I am sure, must have been very anxious, because recruiting was bad. I want to read a few words from the "Times" report of that meeting. The "Times" gave a verbatim report of the speech of the present Colonial Secretary, and the words I will read are these: that there are two versions of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. I have read the "Times" report, and I think the House will agree that on that version what he said was that the Northumberland Yeomanry are included, on the date of the speech, in place of the unit which at a given date shall have made the least effort. Subsequently an official version of the same speech was issued by the War Office, and in that the wording, I quite admit, is substantially different. It starts the same, by praising the Northumberland Hussars, and it goes on: next morning we rather wish it was something different.
I have got a method that I think will put all controversy at rest. There is some doubt as to what the pledge means. It may mean one of two contradictory things. Why not ask the right hon. Gentleman himself? After all, the Colonial Secretary made the speech and gave the pledge, and I therefore ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will ask the Colonial Secretary whether his pledge was absolute or conditional, and when he gets his answer will he act on it? Will he, if the pledge was absolute and if the right hon. Gentleman intended when he spoke at the Mansion House to include this regiment on the date of his speech, see that that pledge is carried out? I would respectfully ask my right hon. Friend to give me an answer to these two questions in his reply. I need not point out the disastrous effect of any suspicion of breach of faith, and it would be specially disastrous if it could be said that the promise of one Minister was not fulfilled by his successor. I hope and believe that the promise will be carried out to the very fullest extent, for I cannot shut my eyes to the bad effect it would have on recruiting if it were not, and I have suggested a very short and a very fair way of bringing the whole controversy to an end. We who sit for these Northern counties sit for an area of recruiting which is second to none in England. It is very populous, it is very patriotic, and it always supported the Territorial Army strongly. Lastly, we have a volunteer Army. We do not rely on conscription, and it is all the more necessary with a volunteer Army to keep faith to the fullest extent.
I have one more point to put, and that is in regard to barracks. My right hon. Friend the Secretary for War said some very welcome words to the House when he said he meant to improve the barrack accommodation. I do hope that when he does that he will consider the case of the Durham Light Infantry, who have not got a barrack inside their own county. It really is a most scandalous and disgraceful thing, and may I make this appeal for one special reason? A few days ago a very gallant officer who belonged to the regiment was killed in Ireland, and his will has just been published. In that will is a request and a hope that the depot of his own regiment may be transferred to his own county. Now I do ask the House to bear that in mind. I knew General Cumming well, and his whole life had been spent in the regiment. He was a man of high character and a man to whom all his friends were sincerely attached, and by all the affection which he felt for his regiment, and by that request in his will, and especially by his early and tragic end, I do appeal to the Government to do a graceful and a much appreciated act and carry out that dead officer's wish.
Army Council
I beg to move, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words, the War and to apply these lessons betimes, for though to-day there is a sort of a peace, in my opinion there is at the best a very unstable equilibrium in, Europe. It is, in my opinion, an equilibrium merely of physical exhaustion and not of real acquiescence in the altered conditions among the erstwhile belligerents. In these circumstances I beg most respectfully to urge upon the Government the appointment of a small and carefully selected Commission to review the directing staff of the Army.
As I know there are some hon. and gallant Gentleman to follow who have a vaster technical Army knowledge than my own, I am going to concentrate my remarks, on one or two points I have especially in view. Particularly I am anxious to see a revision of the composition of the Army Council, which, as I understand. performs the functions of the commander-in-chief. It is really the power-house of the British Army, and its make-up is really of the very first importance. As hon. Members probably are aware, it consists now of the three Ministers, three other civilians, and five military officers, that is, six civilians to five soldiers. To my mind, the real question is whether this make-up is to be predominantly military or predominantly civilian. I consider it is idle to say, as the right hon. Gentleman the then Secretary of State for War said, I think, in July last, that votes do not count in this matter. Even he, with all his ability, cannot alter arithmetic, and if six civilians take one line and five soldiers another in deciding some point of military policy, as could quite easily happen, you would have civilian domination where it is out of place, and, to make the matter worse, it comes to this House, and to the country, as a military decision, as it is the decision of the Army Council, though we know that every soldier on that Council may have disapproved, and is tongue-tied so long as he sits on the Council.
Therefore, I would repeat that the real question is, Is it wise, or is it not wise, to have military decisions possibly controlled by civilian members of the Council? As I read the Report of the Esher Committee, they say the answer is decidedly no. They called it "this serious evil, which lies at the root of military inefficiency," and the abolition of that evil was the very reform which the Esher Committee said was vitally necessary. Now we have apparently abandoned that reform. We have put back the hands of the clock and reverted to the old vicious system which was branded by the Esher Committee as the root of military inefficiency. In the patter of the present day, you may label it "Reconstruction" if you like, but I say it is not reconstruction; it is really destruction—destruction of efficiency, and, above all, of economy itself. For the remarkable thing is that the change-over was first announced to this House under the label of economy, and it was justified in this House by economy, precisely the one thing that the Esher Committee found that that system was not. They found the very opposite. They said it was conducive to waste and extravagance on a colossal scale. I would like to show for a moment that it was first labelled in this House as economy. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, on 24th March last year, in announcing the change over to the present system, disclosed the real crux of the matter. He told the House how the Government had called a meeting of all the financial advisers of all the Departments, and had reported with regard to the Service Department. I will quote from the OFFICIAL REPORT. He said they considered that, in order to secure economy in administration, They add: because the Cabinet and the Government are all civilians, and I do not think that has anything to do with the composition of the Army Council, which is itself a servant of this House, and I sincerely hope that the Government, although I know the right hon. Gentleman has not been very long in his office, will consider the advisability of setting up a small Commission, such as I suggest. It is really a matter for a Commission to decide, and I should like to say, before I sit down, that I do know there is an intense feeling throughout the Territorial Army—and, personally, I share it very strongly myself—that that great force, which will be our hope in the future, as it has been a mainstay in the recent past, should have direct representation on the Army Council. But I recognise that there are many pros and cons to that question, and I do really think that that is one of the questions which could be decided by the Commission for which I ask now. I end, as I began, by assuring the House that I do not bring forward this Amendment in any spirit of wanton or capricious criticism. I do so in the hope that a very useful purpose may be served by the ventilation of such an important subject upon the Floor of the House of Commons, and, strong in the knowledge that as the Government and the right hon. Gentleman have their hands very full of urgent business at the present time, I say that it would be a very wise and prudent step to set up such a Commission to traverse the ground which is really a legacy of the War, and to give to the Government themselves and the country the great advantage of their investigations before any action is taken.
I beg to second the Amendment.
7.0 P.M.
It is to be remembered that the mover has not only knowledge from the point of view of war, but he has also knowledge both financial and business, which gives to his advice greater weight than it otherwise would have. But before I say anything else, may I welcome the new Secretary of State for War? He has in the past proved himself, as Minister of Pensions, to be a real friend to the ex-soldier, and I feel sure that we shall be able, whenever we go to him, to get from him sympathetic consideration, and we, on our part, can certainly assure him of whole-hearted support in his most difficult and most interesting task. The reason why I rise to second this Motion is because I believe that by some such Commission we can get greater value for our money. Unless the directing organisation of the Army is itself properly organised, it is impossible to have efficient and economical administration. We cannot get full value for our money until the present system of army directing organisation, administration and finance is improved. When studying and revising the organisation the Commission will be obliged to go into the whole matter, and by so doing will be able to get a really proper system of organisation. At present we suffer from a most complicated overlapping and inefficient system. You cannot get economical administration in any business unless you can ensure the fixing of responsibility, and that there shall be financial power within the limits devoted to that particular service corresponding to the financial responsibility. For Parliament to interfere with command or conduct of operations in the field would be fatal, but it is the duty of Parliament to look after the administration of the Army, and to see that the working of the administration is not only made, but, by periodical review, is kept, as perfect as possible. This great principle of the division between the functions of command and administration is one that is carefully preserved in all well organised armies. It is a line that is very clearly drawn in the democratic army of our great ally, France, and it was the basis of the system that, in the methodical hands of our Prussian imitators, produced, at a minimum of cost, a marvellously efficient fighting machine. We must recognise the efficiency of that army, not to do so would be to belittle the wonderful achievement of our race in contributing so largely to Germany's defeat. It is of interest to know that this principle, which was worked out so efficiently by the Prussians, was one they got from us. It is a principle evolved by our own Parliament, in conjunction with that great statesman and leader, King William III., and it is a principle which our Parliament has ever since carefully maintained.
The present system of Army administration is the same as obtained before the War. It is based on the recommendations of the Esher Commission. That Commission made recommendations to improve the then existing situation, and its review was of very great importance and advantage to the country. The system evolved by that Commission stood very fairly well the great strain of the War. The machine did creak badly in parts during the War, and there was a good deal of ineconomy and inefficiency. It could be hardly otherwise, for in 1904 it was impossible to imagine a war of this magnitude. A similar revision is now necessary, in view of the experience we have gained in the War. Since 1904, when the Commission sat, and since the beginning of the War in 1914, we have gained enormous experience. We have had an immense evolution, if not actual revolution in our pre-War ideas of Army administration. Now is the time for such a review to be undertaken. Two and a quarter years have gone by since the end of hostilities, but nothing has been done. We are now at a sufficient distance from active operations to be able to contemplate and understand peace necessities. Yet we can still remember our war experiences. We are still plastic. Therefore, any modifications made now on the recommendations of such a Commission would not upset people in the way which it might do later on. If we do not tackle this problem now we shall be losing golden opportunities, and we shall find it very difficult to deal with later, when we have dropped back into the same old ruts as before, without prevision; without provision; without organisation. Muddling through, but at what a cost!
Every statesman and higher commander recognises that it is necessary to study the past; not to cry over spilt milk, but to see where mistakes have been made, so that we may be able to rectify them in the present. Thus, by studying the past and looking forward to the probabilities of the future, we may be able to make the best use of the means we have now available. In the opinion of all my friends in the House and of those whose opinion I value outside the House, it is considered that the best way of dealing with this problem is to appoint a small commission of three very able, experi- enced men, who can give months of hard study to this most difficult job. The Cabinet itself cannot do it; it is not its business to do so. All the spade work of this should be done by someone appointed by them. It will be for the Cabinet, after having the results of this Commission put before them in a concise and intelligible form, to form their judgment and issue their decision. It is impossible for the Army Council to deal with this question. They are all too hardworked men and too immediately interested; all of them, both military and civil members, have certain vested interests and have acquired certain traditions. Therefore, undoubtedly the best thing is some form of commission. It may be said, "This is all very well, proposing a commission, but have you any concrete ideas of what the commission is to be, or is to do." That is a very fair question to ask. I have suggested that the commission should be formed of three men only. The first should be a statesman of broad outlook, with knowledge of what are the requirements both of the Army and the nation in war and peace; the second should be some great soldier whose name would carry weight and would have the confidence both of the Army and the nation—such as our great Commander-in-Chief, who led us through to victory. The third should be a business man, who has built up successfully some great enterprise; a man who not only has been successful in choosing good subordinates but who is an extraordinarily good administrator, and is still sufficiently young and vigorous to be able to give the attention that the problem demands. In addition, it is important to have a secretary who has a full knowledge of such secretarial work and of War Office administration in war and peace.
The terms of reference would have to be very wide and elastic, because in going into the question of the directing organisation of the War Office and the administration in the Army they would have to consider the relations of the Army in war to all our other means of defence. They would have to consider in that connection not only the other services, but also our man-power and our unrivalled manufacturing skill and resources. In the case of war, the army is the nation at the front and the nation is the army at home. The subjects before the Commission would be many, but summarised under three big headings they, would be as follows. First, administration and finance; economical and efficient administration, and the fixing of financial responsibility. Secondly, the utilisation of our resources in man power, in munitions, in supplies and in transport. The first part of the second heading includes the expansion of the Army in war, our Reserves and Territorials and the utilisation of the man power of the country. The second part of this heading deals with materials: How are the articles required for the Army to be produced and supplied to the Army, both in peace and in war. The third big heading is that of the directing organisation. What is to be the composition of the Army Council; what is to be the allocation of duties at the War Office; what is to be the composition of staffs in Commands, and then the general question of the reduction of staff officers. In connection with this there are various minor matters which exercise people's minds at the present time, to some of which the hon. and gallant Member referred. One is the present military minority on the Army Council. That, undoubtedly, is a great potential danger, both to the confidence, the discipline, and the well-being of the army, and therefore to the well-being of the nation. The hon. and gallant Member put forward many points, and I will not weary the House by repeating what he has said. This, however, is a matter which I think everyone will agree is of such constitutional importance that the substitution of a civilian for a military majority on the Army Council is not a thing that should be done on the ipse dixit of any Secretary of State for War, but only by the Cabinet after careful consideration and be subject to approval by this House.
There is the question of how the Territorial Army should be represented. Do not let anything be done piecemeal in regard to the Territorials. There must be no line of cleavage between the Territorials and the Regulars. They are complementary one to the other. The Territorials supply privates and officers who are full of enthusiasm and patriotism, and can be readily trained to the high efficiency required in war and supply also the organisation on which our National Army can be built up. The Regulars supply the highly trained nucleus required to train and direct our National Army if ever a great war be again thrust on us. Those of us who have gone through the War are the most anxious to avoid a recrudescence of war. The next question is a more technical one, whether there should be a Master General of the Ordnance on the Army Council or not. That must not be dealt with piecemeal, but after careful consideration of the whole problem, for this depends very greatly on what arrangements should be made in peace and war for the production of munitions of war. There are three great stages in getting what is needed for an army. First, there is production or manufacture; secondly, provision or collection; and thirdly, supply or distribution to the troops. Everyone will agree that the supply or distribution must be done by a military agency, but whether the second point of provision and the first of production are to be done by a semi-military or civil agent can only be decided after a very careful consideration of the question in all its bearings by such a Commission as is advocated by my hon. and gallant Friend. The most important duties with which this Commission would have to deal are the big matters such as the methods of utilising our man power; our manufacturing resources; our food supply; and our means of transport. In order to be able to deal with them, and to evolve a satisfactory system of administration and finance and of the directing organisation of the Army, I unhesitatingly say that some Commission is necessary to review the present situation in the light of the experience of the War. It is on the grounds of efficiency and economy that I urge the necessity of appointing in the near future a Commission to go into the whole matter of Army administration and cognate subjects, and to submit to the Government, for their decision, a definite and concrete proposal for the improvement of the defensive organisation of the country as a whole in the light of the experience gained in the late War.
First of all, I should like to say how glad I am, with others who have taken part in the Debate, to see the Secretary of State in the place he occupies. I am sure he will work at his office, and only at his office, and not in any other offices outside. This is the chief thing wanted, and I believe that we shall get a very efficient administration under the right hon. Gentleman. I should like to congratulate the two hon. Gentlemen who have spoken on the extremely interesting speeches they have made to the House. If I understood them, their main point was this: that there was something wrong with the financial administration and control, and that that was closely connected with the balance between the number of civilians and the number of soldiers on the Army Council. They seemed to think that some revision of the numbers of civilians and soldiers of the Army Council would have the effect of increasing financial control and the improvement of economy in the Army. I am bound to say that, with the best will in the world towards that point of view, I have not been able to see the connection, or reason it out in my own mind.
First of all, my experience as a member of the Army Council was that it does not really very much matter whether there is one more civilian than soldier or one more soldier than civilian on the Army Council. I cannot recall during my three years' work on that body any occasion on which it would have mattered whether there had been, as there was, three civilians and four soldiers or three soldiers and four civilians. Things were not settled by that hard and sharp differentiation of views between soldiers and civilians. Things were very rarely, if ever, voted upon at all, and I feel certain that a wise Secretary of State, if he saw things going in that direction with the military members of the Army Council on the one side and the civilian members on the other, rather than have the thing debated, voted and decided upon in that way, would withdraw the matter—as he is entitled to do—and settle it as the Secretary for War on his own responsibility. Certainly I do not think I can agree that there is anything in the point that there ought to be more civilians than soldiers on the Army Council, or that that would have any connection at all with the question of financial control and economy of expenditure. Financial control and economy of expenditure depends, it seems to me, not on that line of action in any way. I can not imagine how economy would be affected by that means at all, or by the number or functions of the soldiers on the Army Council. Economy, it seems to me, in the War Office, depends primarily on the system of financial control which is usually practised. It is generally held by the people who have studied it, and compared it with other systems, that the financial control at the War Office is very good, and in many ways a model for other offices. The root of it is, of course—of this new system—that the Financial Secretary and his advisers have representatives not only in the high places to consider matters after they have been formulated and put forward by the military officers, but have representatives right down in all the military departments whose duty it is to consider and help the military men in their proposals requiring expenditure from the time they are initiated so that from the beginning the proposal may be put in a form in which it is compatible with economy in its administration.
I believe having officers who are really experienced in the art of economy, not as spies or enemies, but as friends in the military departments of the War Office, to help the military heads and directors in their proposals, is a very valuable part of the War Office system, and I do not think that the result of it, in peace or war, is such that any reasonable demand can be made for it to be pulled up by the roots to be examined by a Committee or Commission. Financial control and economy depends perhaps even more on the form in which the Estimates and accounts of the War Office itself are cast. There, I think also, those who know most about the systems of other offices are agreed that other offices have a great deal to learn from the War Office, and not vice versâ. They have in the War Office carried the system of real businesslike Estimates and accounts much further than has yet been found in any other office. It is only by so doing that you can get what the hon. Member referred to in introducing his Motion, and what is really at the root of economy, real co-operation between the men who have to spend the money, who must be largely the military officers themselves, and the men who have to look after this expenditure, the financial controllers and so on.
It is, I believe, a fact that those who know most of Army history will bear me out that in the whole history of the Army no one has ever been promoted because he was economical, or refused promotion be- cause he was extravagant. That is a great defect and disadvantage. You cannot fairly enforce economy of administration and of expenditure upon your military officers unless to some extent their career and promotion depends upon how they deal with the nation's money which is entrusted to their care. But it is a fact that hitherto the system of account keeping in the Army and, until quite recently, has never been so cast that you could really bring home the results of any particular officer's expenditure to him in the account of that expenditure. Our system has hitherto been economy by minute regulation, and not economy by giving to a man something like responsibility, and showing to him the results of that responsibility in the accounts of the unit or department, or by comparison with the expenses of some other unit which could be brought into the form of a businesslike account. I believe Sir Charles Harris and those who worked with him in the War Office have set an example to the rest of the Civil Service in trying to work out forms of accounts and estimates which will for the first time show the results of expenditure, and proposals of expenditure, in a businesslike way; and, secondly, which ought to secure, and will, I think, secure, the real co-operation of the military officers themselves in the task of economy. It is only when a man can see on paper the result of his own expenditure that you can expect him to attach any real meaning to Regulations which are laid down for his guidance.
Notice taken that 40 Members were not present. House counted, and 40 Members being found present —
I was just concluding my observations by saying that there had been already started in the War Office more than any other Department a system whereby there would be real co-operation between the officers in the service and the civilians in the actual task and arts of economy, and that, therefore, no case has been made out why a Special Commission should be appointed to pull things up by the roots to see how they are getting on. I believe it will be better for this House to set itself to watch the system of accounts and estimates which has recently been started in the War Office, to encourage that system, and to see that it is applied, as it can be applied to some considerable extent, to other Departments, and not hastily to rush to the conclusion—for we have not had sufficient evidence in the speeches we have heard in this Debate—that a better system can be worked out by the appointment of a Commission such as the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment have suggested.
I should like to say one or two words upon a portion of the suggestions that have fallen from the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Acland), for he never talks upon this subject without making us feel he thoroughly understands it. As we all know, it was one of the greatest of War Ministers that had to do with the formation of the Territorial Force, and we are under the deepest obligation to him for his work, and for what the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Acland) did at that time. What I want to ask the Secretary for War to take into consideration is this: that the Director-General of the Territorial Force should be a member of the Army Council. We as a Territorial Force for years have asked for that, in fact ever since that officer was appointed. I am not sure how many years ago that is, but I think it is something like 25 or 30 years. From the first we all felt that we ought as a force to have the Director-General representing us on the Army Council. I am one of those who believe—and I believe that opinion is largely shared not only in the Territorial Army but also by Regular officers—that if there had been such a representative on the Army Council when the War broke out the greatest mistake that we made then, a mistake admitted now—almost universally—for Lord French himself said it was a mistake, would have been avoided. Instead of the new armies being created as a separate organisation they ought to have been raised by successive lines of the Territorial Force. To do otherwise was a waste of high-class material and a waste of men. If we as a Territorial Force had been allowed to raise relay after relay, knowing officers and men and being assisted by the older officers, we could have done the work required, instead of the work being done in a way the result of which to my mind was disastrous to the country for the time being.
There is one other thing; I am sorry to have to say it now, but the time is past when these things happened, and we did not say anything about them before, but we believe if we had had such a representative on the Army Council incidents which occurred after the War had commenced would not have occurred. Officers like myself had always had, up to that time, the pleasantest and most courteous treatment from every officer in the Regular Army, but when the War broke out there were high officers who seemed to think that the occasion had come when—I will not say that they did it intentionally or that they desired to do it, they may have done it inadvertently—the occasion had come when they could treat, and did treat, some of the older Territorial officers who came back in a manner verging on contumely and insult. We had a certain amelioration of that in the fact that we had a Director-General who was sympathetic to the force, and, knowing the difficulties of the officers, softened the action of the officers to whom I am referring, men in high authority. I could give instances, some personal, of this treatment. On one occasion I happened to go to a camp where there were six Territorial officers in command of units, and they all came to me complaining of what they thought—and I must say I also thought—to be wholly unfair treatment in the discharge of their duties at the hands of a certain high military officer. If we had had on the Army Council a man who understood our difficulties, and who could sympathise with the problems Territorial officers are called on to solve, problems altogether different to those faced by Regular officers, problems which from their very nature are almost impossible for a Regular officer to understand or to sympathise with—if we had had such an officer on the Army Council, who could have grasped our difficulties, we should not have had to make these complaints. I am sorry to have had to say this. It is seven years old, I know, but if we had made a fuss at the time it would only have caused ill-feeling; therefore, we went through with it. However, it is only right I should put it on record, and I say this sort of thing will never be cured until we have direct access to an officer on the Army Council who is directly representative of the Territorial Force.
I think the House would like me to reply at once to the Motion now before it, leaving the various questions which have been addressed to me to be answered in Committee on the Vote of Account. This Motion has been proposed by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bow and Bromley (Major Blair), and if I may compliment him on his speech I would like to do so. He has raised some very important questions in a speech which really gave two reasons for the setting up of this proposed Commission. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ayr and Bute (Sir A. Hunter-Weston) in his speech really suggested that the Commission should have a far more extended scope than had been urged by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley or indeed than is suggested in the Motion before the House. Let me deal with the Motion. It is supported on the ground that the Army Council has a majority of civilians on it. There are six civilians and five military members, and consequently it is suggested it is not fulfilling the purpose for which the Esher Report advised that it should be set up. The second reason given, and supported by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Renfrewshire (Colonel Greig) is that the Territorial Army is not represented directly on the Army Council, and that therefore the composition of the Council ought to be altered.
Let me deal first with the point that there is a minority of military members on the Army Council. That is true at the moment, but it is rather fortuitous; it is not a matter of design. If it were of very great importance whether or not the military or civilians should be in a majority, that is a thing which might be rectified. I do not, however, believe it has any great importance. I entirely agree with the right hon. Member for Camborne (Mr. Acland) that the decisions of the Army Council are not come to by a counting of heads, but that there is an interchange of opinions, and his description of what a model Secretary of State should do if he found himself facing matters on which the Army Council were going to split into two sections, is, one in which I concur. In point of fact, as he informed the House, after three years' experience of work on the Army Council, the difficulty theoretically arising from a possible division of the Army Council into civil and military sections does not actually happen. Let us see who the civilians are. A Permanent Secretary has recently been added. He is not the Accounting Officer of the War Office. The Accounting Officer is a gentleman who used to be called Assistant Financial Secretary, and he is very well known to all of us—I mean Sir Charles Harris. He used to be called Assistant Financial Secretary. He is mow called Secretary for Finance, and his position in the office being that of Accounting Officer, it was thought right he should be made also a member of the Army Council. There are, in fact, two secretaries who are upon the Army Council. That, I say, is fortuitous, and in due course, when the duties are combined in one man, that one man will be a member of the Army Council, and there will not be two secretaries members of the Council. We have also serving there a well-known business man, whom I found of the greatest service when working at the Ministry of Munitions. Sir James Stevenson acted as Surveyor-General of Stores and Co-ordinator of the Contracts and Supply Departments of the War Office. He is a member of the Army Council. I understand that we are not likely to be able to retain his honorary services very much longer. He has been an honorary member of the first Munitions Council, then of the Army Council, and also of the Air Council for the last four or five years, and he warns me, not unnaturally, that he cannot be relied upon to continue his services for any length of time. Supposing his office becomes vacated, in all probability his seat will not be filled up on the Army Council. Therefore, that there is a great probability, in the ordinary course, of the civil side being reduced and being, in fact, either made equal or put into a minority.
Let me take the other point, the question of representation of the Territorial Force by an officer on the Army Council. I want to deal quite frankly with that. I would take that step at once if I thought that the Territorial Army would be benefited by direct representation on the Army Council. I do not believe it would, and I will tell the House exactly why. At the present moment the Territorial force is represented on the Army Council by the Under-Secretary of State, who happens to have been a Yeomanry officer, who knows absolutely every point in the game, and exactly what the difficulties are of the Territorial Force. You could not chose a man better able to represent that force on the Army Council. He is a member who—well, I do not say that one member of the Army Council has more influence than another—but if one has surely the Under-Secretary is likely to be among those who have the most influence.
It is only by accident he happens to be there.
It is an accident he happens to be a soldier. It is not an accident that, as Undersecretary, he has charge of the Territorial Army and specially represents it on the Army Council. It is by design and not by accident at all that he has special work allotted to him in the War Office, and that that special work includes looking after the Territorial Army. The other point I have to deal with is this: all the military members of the Army Council are there, each as representing a great Department of the War Office, and fulfilling certain well-known and well-defined functions. Each one has a functional office—the Master-General of Ordnance, the Quarter-Master-General, and the Adjutant-General. Each officer, in fact, represents a certain function, and they go in the whole to make up the administration of the Army. After all, the Territorial Army is exactly parallel with and on the same basis as the Regular Army, and these other members of the Army Council will be serving the Territorial Army in precisely the same way as they served the Regular Army. If you put into that organisation a military member representing only the Territorial Army, you will be crossing the whole present organisation of the Army Council, and he would not be representative in the same sense as other members are of functions to be carried out by the organisation. He would be representative only of one of the products, the Territorial Army.
I come to the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr and Bute. I confess I listened to it with the greatest possible interest. It requires much more study than I could give it sitting on this Bench. His proposal, if it had been put in Parliamentary form, would have been vastly in excess of the notice on the Paper. All I will say is this. I want, and he wants, that every lesson in administration the War has taught as shall be learned, and that these lessons shall be applied to the administration of the Army, either at headquarters or in commands, wherever it may be possible or necessary. We want the administration improved, and therefore I do not close my mind to the possibility of an inquiry, either by a Committee or Commission—I do not say either the one or the other is better—into administrative matters. That, however, is a different thing from accepting this Motion, and I must ask my hon. and gallant Friends to be content with my statement. I have been here only three or four weeks, and I cannot say whether I ought or ought not to accept a Commission of Inquiry into administration, but I will watch the administration very carefully, and if I think I can get assistance from a Commission outside—if I think it is necessary—I shall not hesitate to set up, or, rather, to ask the House to set up, such a Commission. Meanwhile, all I can say is that I am not prepared to go further, and I would suggest to my hon. Friends that they might very well withdraw their Motion.
I confess I am rather disappointed with the speech to which we have just listened, because I had hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to give the Territorial Army at least one representative on the Army Council. If I venture to trouble the House with some remarks on the Territorial Force, I hope it will be understood that I do so only because I believe it to be in the best interests of that Force. We all realise that the Under-Secretary of State for War does at the present moment represent us on the Army Council, but the fact that he happens to be a soldier is mere accident. What the Territorial Force wants is direct representation. It wants to be represented by the Director-General, who might represent it for all time and might be assumed to have made a complete study of its requirements, while the Under-Secretary, though he may be elected to look after the Territorial Army, has other functions to perform and does not appeal to that Army with the same force as the Director-General would do. If this Army is to be what it ought to be, it is very necessary that all the little pinpricks from which it has suffered for so many years should be removed.
I listened with intense interest to the hon. Member for Renfrewshire (Colonel Greig) a few moments ago. He said a great deal with which I am in entire agreement. There is a feeling of real grievance among Territorial officers as to the manner they were treated in the past. Many of them had long service before the War, and presented the nation with something that was extremely useful in the hour of need. I look upon the Territorial Army as the finest safeguard the country has against war. That is its peculiar value, and I do not think that we ought to overlook anything which could add to this army's efficiency and contentment. I do not want to labour this sense of grievance, but we all have it, and though there is nobody who has a greater admiration for the Regular soldier than I have, I do feel that to a certain extent we were exploited by the Regular Army in the late War, and that feeling is strongest in the older officers. Though they gave the best years of their life to the force, they were passed over as too old for actual active service in the field. They went to France, and as soon as they got there they were sent home again, and had the mortification of seeing their battalion handed over to some young Regular officer. When they arrived home they were relegated to unimportant duties, duties which in many cases they did not like. Business men who had given their whole lives to this force found themselves without any honours or hope of reward. Other business men who gave a few years of their lives in London to working for the Ministry of Munitions were decorated with the K.B.E., the O.B.E., and various other distinctions. One of the greatest difficulties we have always found is to get the professional soldier to look at things through the glasses of the non-professional soldier, and the non-professional soldier to look at things through the glasses of the professional soldier. I do submit that the Territorial force really needs somebody who will make a special study of understanding that force.
I come to the question of Yeomanry. We have heard this afternoon that a great many Yeomanry regiments are to be abandoned. I will not reopen the discussions as to the uses of cavalry in war, but I do think that in disbanding the Yeomanry you are disbanding a very useful branch of the Territorial force, because it attracts a class of recruit which the other branches of the service fail to attract—the man who wants to ride, and is in many ways a better class of man than the one who is attracted by the infantry, the engineers, and other branches of the service. You could always turn them into infantry at short notice. Of the 2,000 or 3,000 men I had through my hands in the War, one of the finest drafts I ever got was a draft of Yeomanry that came to us as infantry, and that, in my opinion, was simply because the Yeomanry had a better class of man. It is false economy, therefore, to do away with the Yeomanry regiments. I do not care whether they are really necessary for the purposes of war; they are necessary for purposes of recruiting. We want direct representation of the Territorial Army, not merely for sentimental but also for strategical purposes. Very great mistakes were made at the beginning of the War in the choice of war stations. Regiments were sometimes sent to places near their own homes, which is a great mistake. Others were stationed too far away from their homes. There is a great deal of this. I belonged to a division whose war station was in. Ireland, but at the last moment that was cancelled. This is an improvement which could be effected if we were more directly represented. Another mistake which was made was the selection of the units to take the field first. The best regiments were chosen. We of the force were very proud of those regiments and very envious of them. But it was a great mistake to send the best of the Territorial force into the field first, because you lost by Wounds and death hundreds of embryo officers who were badly needed in the later stages of the War. These are some of the errors which would be corrected if the Territorial force were represented by someone who had made a special study of the mentality and psychology of the force. May I deal with one or two of the small difficulties which it is experiencing to-day and always has experienced? First of all I should like to refer to the question of railway fares to target practice. A letter sent to me by an officer of 25 years' standing now commanding—
That can hardly be relevant to the Amendment now before the House. It might be quite relevant to the general discussion but not to that particular Amendment.
I was only quoting this because I wanted to show the need for more direct representation of the Territorial force on the Army Council. We do feel that we have never been really represented and no real attempt has been made to understand us. Lots of little mistakes have been made which irritated us and detracted from recruiting. When I say that, I do not forget all that has been done for us and I do not want to rake up the perpetual quarrel between the Regular and the Volunteer soldier. We do think that if we were represented on the Army Council by someone who had taken the trouble to study our requirements specially, a lot of these things would not happen in the future as they have happened in the past.
I do not propose to keep the House more than one or two moments, but, as an officer of the Territorial Force, I want to say a word or two in support of the arguments raised, particularly in the speech of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for one of the Divisions of Lancashire, and I should like to express my regret that the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War in that he has not been able to give direct representation to the Territorial Force on the Army Council. I think that the argument he raised, that the Under-Secretary would be an adequate representative of the Territorial Force, did not carry conviction to the majority of the House. It is all very well to say that he is delegated as their representative. What the Territorial Force wants is a man with experience of that Force and of the difficulties which they underwent during the War. It is not merely a matter of having a certain individual to be the representative of their interests. What you want to do is to gain the confidence of the Territorial Force itself. It is the moral aspect that is of the greatest importance. Personally, I think that it is of the greatest importance that we should develop our Territorial Force. It is perhaps not in order for me to mention it, but I think we want to let the great mistakes made in the past show us the way towards developing our Territorial Force into an effective fighting unit. The Secretary for War said the amount for the Territorial Force is nearly £5,000,000, which shows that the means for this development are insufficient for our needs. During the War, particularly at the beginning of the War, there is no question that the Regular officer looked with a great deal of suspicion and was a great deal out of sympathy with the Territorial Force. We had experience of that over and over again.
The hon. and gallant Member is going a very long way from the Amendment. There is nothing whatever about the Territorial Force in the Amendment. The proposal is that a Commission should be set up. It is not that the Commission should recommend the appointment of a Territorial representative. This point has been dug out by several hon. Members, but it has nothing to do with the Amendment.
Surely one of the objects of having a Commission is that they should go thoroughly into this question as to the direct representation of the Territorial Force on the Army Council. That is the point I was attempting to raise.
This point was not raised by either the proposer or the seconder of the Amendment, and I do not think it was ever in occupation of their minds at all.
In deference to your ruling, Sir, I will not labour the point, but I hope the Secretary for War will review the situation and give it his attention.
Amendment negatived.
Main Question again proposed.
8.0 P.M.
I am taken somewhat by surprise in the intricacies of Parliamentary procedure. The point I was making was with regard to the question of declarations. There were innumerable instances where officers in the same unit who were Territorials were passed over in favour of Regular officers. That occurred over and over again. I agree that later on in the War a great deal of this suspicion and jealousy of the Territorial Force among Regular officers ceased because of the magnificent work and extraordinary results which were achieved by the Territorial Force. But I submit that for the purpose of avoiding any of these jealousies in the future we should have complete and direct representation on the Army Council. This will create a Council which will result in the recruitment of an effective and strong Territorial Force. I agree with what was said by another hon. and gallant Member that one of the greatest mistakes that was made in the early days of the War was in not absorbing the new armies into the existing Territorial organisation which was ready at hand at that time. It would have avoided a great many of the delays that took place at the commencement of the War. You had your organisation. You had your organisation which was not utilised. Instead of that you got an enormous number of temporary battalions attached to regular units, whereas they could have been readily absorbed into the existing organisation of the Territorial Force. We have heard that this force is comparatively speaking a very economical unit. I submit that we should do everything in our power to encourage that force and to obtain their confidence. For that purpose, I hope the Territorial Force will be represented on the Army Council.
I want to refer to two points which have been mentioned in this Debate before I come to the main topic with regard to mounted troops. A speech was made by the hon. and gallant Member for Rhondda East (Major Morgan), in which he criticised the expenditure in the Estimates with regard to works in barracks. I can hardly believe there is a single Member in this House who does not consider, when he realises how much has been neglected in the matter of barracks during the War, that it is a wise expenditure, rather than we should pay possibly for works which are hardly necessary, and certainly I think every Member of the Labour party will agree it is far preferable to pay out money in wages than give unemployed donation. If the work has to be done, now is the time to do it. We need not criticise the Secretary of State for his policy, because I believe it is imperative that we should have barrack accommodation for the Army. I am sorry the Secretary of State for War has left the House, because I wished to ask him questions with regard to Palestine and Mesopotamia. The figures given in respect of those two countries added together amount to £26,500,000. I do not know whether these amounts have been divided, but am I right in saying that possibly £5,000,000 or £6,000,000 a year is being spent for the present in Palestine? [HON. MEMBERS: "£7,000,000."] £7,000,000 has been spent in Palestine. I cannot help thinking that this is serious in view of the state of the country's finances. This is an unjustifiable expenditure. If Palestine were going to be for all time a British colony, I could understand that we might find that necessary; but it is a very great burden to impose upon the taxpayers of this country when we know that Palestine in the future is going to be the home for Jews. Everybody wishes the Jews every success in the development of that colony, but I do not believe the people of this country are prepared to spend £7,000,000 per annum in order to police that country to make it a home for Jews in time to come. I hope, therefore, that it will be conveyed to the Secretary of State for War what evidently is the view of this House on this expenditure. I think every Member of this House will agree that life is getting difficult. Everyone is finding it extraordinarily difficult to make two ends meet at the present time, and why we should spend £7,000,000 a year upon this country is difficult to understand. It would be just as justifiable to ask us to spend £7,000,000 a year in order to protect the Armenians. We realise the extreme difficulty of the situation in Palestine, but it ought not to be necessary, it seems to me, to indulge in this great expenditure.
I should like to say, as a battalion commander, that I am extremely grateful for the sympathy extended to the Territorial forces by the late Secretary of State for War, which sympathy seems also to be shared by the Minister who has succeeded him. I believe that for the first time in our history the country is appreciating the work which the Territorial Force is doing, and realises that it is in reality the cheapest force in the world. I do not think that is an exaggeration, and the force is likely to be of great value to this country in days to come. There is this one point in regard to the Territorial forces that I should like to mention. I do not know whether it is the desire of the Secretary of State to get more men quickly, or whether he is satisfied that he has sufficient reserves in this country. The unit I have the honour to command is nearly up to strength; in fact, I have had to stop in most parts of the recruiting area. I would suggest that units in such a position might be permitted to recruit over their strength in order to fill the gaps created by men who go into the regular Army. We must contemplate that a certain number of recruits will pass on to the regular Army, and the suggestion might be considered that we might be allowed to recruit, say, 5 per cent., over the establishment, in order that we might have trained men available and not be perpetually recruiting.
As to having a Territorial officer on the Army Council, I believe I am expressing the voice of the vast majority of the Territorial forces when I say that we desire to have a representative there who is a real Territorial. I do not mean that he necessarily should be a soldier, but filled with the Territorial spirit. After all, he is the man to understand our needs and aspirations. The Secretary of State for War states that an answer has been given to that request by the appointment of Viscount Peel. That is no answer at all, because hon. Members will tell me that in a year's time Viscount Peel will depart; and very likely the Member for one of the Glasgow Divisions, or someone else who has nothing whatever to do with the Territorial force, will be found Under-Secretary of State for War. It is not suggested that he should be a permanent officer. I believe it is felt right through the Territorial force that for some reason or other the main hopes and aspirations of the Territorial Army are not properly recognised at Headquarters. It is quite true what my hon. and gallant Friend says with regard to the jealousy that exists. I believe much of this might be got rid of if someone who knew the Territorial forces was able to sit in council with those who help to decide these questions. The Territorial force is half of the Army, and that half of the Army should have a representative on the Army Council.
The last point I want to deal with is the question of mounted troops. If you read through the history of the military preparations of this country you will find that after every war we are very much inclined to standardise our requirements according to the conditions of that partic- ular war. It was so after the Peninsular War; it was certainly so after the South African War. At one time it was understood that almost every one must be trained as mounted infantrymen. For a short time cavalry were to be entirely scrapped. It will also be remembered it was never imagined that you could do anything except fight in the loosest and widest formation, so much so that the new ideas percolated right through the regulations and instructions. Then came this great War where you had a continuous line of trenches from sea to sea, and the result of that was it was a war of fortification. Consequently you had to have an enormous amount of artillery that you would not have had in a normal war. If, as we hope, conscripted armies are going to cease in the world, you are not likely to have trench lines stretched across a whole continent. You would therefore have a war of movement. If that be true, I think we are going to too great lengths in disbanding cavalry. What is the total number of cavalry regiments to be disbanded? We have heard very recently of four regular yeomanry regiments and 45 yeomanry cavalry regiments disbanded—and I would ask the House to remember that once we are at war the Empire as a whole is counted together—and by the decision of the Secretary of State for India, 18 regular cavalry regiments in India are also being disbanded. If you add these together—I do not know what the Dominions are doing, but they have small permanent establishments—that within three months we are cutting down 67 cavalry regiments. I cannot help thinking that this is a very grave step to take, unless a great deal of consideration has been given to it.
Earlier in the Debate we heard a discussion as to the respective merits of cavalry and tanks. I am a great believer in tanks. In future, if you get a war of movement, you are going to have tanks that will be able to get far away from the roads, and you will not be able to lay your land mines, because you will not know where your tanks are going I suggest that the tanks of the future will be a very speedy weapon of movement, and it will be essential to have fast troops to follow your tanks, unless indeed you carry infantry soldiers in your tanks. If you employ a large number of tanks on such a frontier as the Western Frontier, you are hardly going to see all you tanks blown up by mines. If you have a war of movement, tanks and cavalry will become the weapons of the future. Tanks, cavalry and troops, and your infantry soldier, in that kind of war, it seems to me, will not fulfil such an important function as during the recent late War. This is a serious question, and the House ought not lightly to laugh over such a serious matter as the reduction of 67 regiments. It is a very serious step to take. I do not say that the great and wise men who sit in counsel cannot be left to deal with this matter, but it is not a step we ought to take in a great hurry. The infantry soldier cannot be trained to fight as a cavalryman within a year or two years. At Ypres, the line was held by the 10th Hussars and the Royals, and there was a wonderful counter-attack by the Blues and the Life Guards, who at that time were acting as infantry; and there is no one who does not admit that, but for the dismounting of the cavalry and their use as infantry at that early period of the War, that thin khaki line would have had an even more difficult time. I hope that the Secretary of State for War may be able to reconsider the question of disbanding these yeomanry regiments. Tradition counts for much, even in a civilian citizen regiment, and one realises the difficult position of, for instance, the Northumberland Hussars. There is another regiment, which I know personally, the Hertfordshire Yeomanry, which was one of the most successful regiments, both in the South African War and the recent European War. I believe I am right in saying that they shared with the 14th Hussars the honour of the first entrance into Bagdad, and were also the first cavalry regiment to enter Damascus. All the time and money that has been poured out on the upkeep of that regiment in days gone by, in order to see that men of that type were attracted to take part in the defence of the country, is largely going to be wasted. I hope we are not going to take a final decision on this question, but that those regiments which are being trained as cavalry may be permitted to extend their cavalry service, and not be forced to become gunners. It is curious, but it is true, that the men who join the yeomanry are not, as a rule, anxious to join the artillery. They are men of different type. The one is a farmer's son, as a rule, and the Other a mechanic. I hope that when it is realised that our cavalry in the Empire are to be reduced by 67 regiments, the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider this question, and will, anyhow, leave a little door open to see whether we are not hastening too far in that direction, and whether we are not basing the future distribution of our forces upon the belief that in the next war we shall have a continuous line of trenches. I think that nine people out of ten will agree that the odds are that the next war will be a war of movement, in which quickly moving troops will be an enormous factor in the success of one side or the other.
I think that my hon. and gallant Friend who has just spoken is under a misapprehension in regard to the Jewish home in Palestine. I do not think it would be quite right to assume that the £7,000,000 that we are spending on troops in Palestine is spent altogether for the benefit of the Jewish home. Those troops perform a double function. They not only keep off the wandering Bedouin from crossing the Jordan, but they also act as the reserve for the garrison of Egypt. Palestine, in fact, has become the place d'armes for the Suez Canal, and, if the proposed arrangements are made, there is no doubt that our troops could not be better situated than at El Kantara, which is nominally in the Palestine area. There they would protect the canal, and would be ready to move in any direction. It was, however, to the great cavalry question that I wished to direct my arguments. For the last sixteen years, ever since I have been in this House, every Debate on the Army has brought up that great cavalry question. It used to be called the arme blanche, and now we have the same sad story told from the same sad benches. The fact of the matter is that no Secretary of State for War dare touch the cavalry. It is like touching the Ark of the Covenant. If he dares to disband so much as a squadron you hear spurs rattling on every bench in the House. I think, however, that the ordinary soldier who has not been bred in a cavalry regiment will agree that, in these days of machine guns and barbed wire, a single machine gun would wipe out a cavalry regiment. In a country where there are railways, and where machine guns can be supplied with ammunition, cavalry are in a hopeless position at the present time. My hon. and gallant Friend quoted the really solitary example on the French front of good work by cavalry in this War, and that was done when the cavalry were dismounted and acting as infantry. I wonder if he was present at Cambrai, and remembers the great hopes that were raised of the breakthrough there, and how that breakthrough failed, not because the cavalry were not ready to do anything, but because, when it came to the point, against barbed wire and machine guns they could do nothing. What happened was that the cavalry horses were turned loose, and the men turned themselves automatically into infantry. Then, again, on the Roye Road the cavalry charged down the road and were literally wiped out by machine guns. Against machine guns and barbed wire cavalry are helpless.
I specifically said that I was speaking on the assumption that the wars of the future would be wars of movement. If you are fighting in countries like those of the Middle East, where the war is not a fixed one, it will still be necessary to consider your most mobile arm.
Cavalry cannot operate as they could 50 or 100 years ago, and in settled countries their function is performed far more efficiently by armoured cars. These cover the ground much better, are more defensible, and are far more useful as the eyes of the army than any cavalry could be. This cavalry question is really an example of the conservatism which seems inevitably to hang about Army matters. Just as the Navy stuck to sailing ships long after steamships had come in in the mercantile marine, so the Army sticks to all that was done when the present heads of the War Office were subalterns at Woolwich or Sandhurst. There is an inevitable tendency to stick to what you knew when you were young, and not to be bothered with these wretched fresh ideas. Every one saw it all through the War. Inventions and mechanical devices were brought to the War Office and resented because it was shoving new ideas into people whose ideas had become crystallised long ago. I hope the Secretary of State will persevere and will not stop at the reduction that has been made but will press for further reductions. It is perfectly well known that the cost of upkeep of cavalry regiments is enormously greater than it used to be owing to the enormous price of forage, and it is obvious that in a time when war is becoming more and more a war of machinery, and less and less a matter of show, that this extremely costly weapon should be scrutinised as to its usefulness far more carefully than it was in the past.
I want to raise one other question more or less in the same connection. War has become a matter of machinery, and I think the realisation of that might be used to improve the education of our Army. One of the greatest drawbacks to our young men going into the Army is that when they leave it they are not fitted for any useful trade. That was not true in this War of the people who went into the armoured cars and tanks, or into the flying corps, or any essentially mechanical branch of the Army. They came out of the Army at the end of the War with a trade at their finger tips. They were useful citizens, and they got useful salaries and pay when they went into civil life. Now that every man in the Army is a more useful soldier if he understands mechanics and machinery, would it not be possible to combine this new passion for educating the soldier with a really useful training in mechanics? I wish, just as the use of a Lewis gun is taught to every man in an ordinary line regiment, whether they be in the machine gun detachment or not, I would have every man in the infantry or every surviving man in the cavalry instructed how to mend and drive motor cars and trolleys, so that he might be efficient at whatever branch of work he had to do. War is now such a matter of machinery that no man can say what he may not have to turn his hand to. Driving locomotives is a branch of war; driving tractors to plough is a branch of war. The culture of kitchen gardens became a large branch of war in the German Army. Everything mechanical, every piece of technical education is or may be of use to a soldier, and I would have more time in future put into instructing the rank and file in every sort of useful trade, particularly those connected with driving mechanical transport, rather than that they should spend too much time in forming fours and merely mechanical evolutions. I am certain that if special attention was given in camps to agricultural work, and all branches of railway work, you would not have only a more efficient Army, but you would have a larger number to select from, because people would put their sons into the Army if they thought they were going to learn all manner of useful trades, and I think you would turn out in the end more useful citizens. You would have better soldiers, and better citizens at the end, and a larger supply of recruits to get into your Army.
That is one way in which the Army might be improved, in which your rank and file might raise their standard, but I do not believe it is possible really to raise the standard of the rank and file unless you increase the promotion from the ranks to the rank of officer. I have, of course, seen innumerable ranker officers, and I know perfectly well that they have their drawbacks, but they have many advantages too, and no one who saw a temporary lieutenant in the War can afford to look down upon the aptitude for fighting, as well as the gallantry, of those lower middle classes. Those are the men who deserve well of the country, and as they become officers, as they rise in the ranks, they form not only an asset of value to the country, but an admirable example of what England is made of to show the world. I am sorry to say that at present, from the stories I have heard, a determined effort is being made, though probably not with official authority, to get rid of these temporary officers. The pay is good; in fact, the pay of the lower officer ranks is, in my opinion, too good. It is a very attractive career, and there is a tendency now to close it as far as possible and keep it as a preserve for the old type of officer — to get rid of the present ex - temporary officers of the War, and to get back to Sandhurst and Woolwich cadets — and I think the War Office should watch that and see that, though the accent may not be perfect, yet the door is wide open for those who have a good English accent and those who have not to become the officers of the future Army. The War Office should see that there is no possible step taken to check the number of those who go in for officers' commissions. One of the methods that has been adopted recently to confine it to the well-to-do is to charge fees for Sandhurst and Woolwich sufficient to keep out these lower middle class officers. I should like to hear from the Financial Secretary a word or two on that matter. It seems to me, looking at it from the Labour point of view, that it is vitally important that we should get officers of all classes into our Army. I fancy that wars of the old sort are going to be in abeyance for many years to come, and that the Army—you hear this on nearly every Labour platform—is not only for use against a national enemy, but also for use in this country. When you have, as at present, the prospect of great industrial unrest, great unemployment, and danger looming ahead in the industrial world, I do not want it to be possible that anyone should say our Army is a preserve of a class and is to be used in a class war against the proletariat. There is a danger of that being said, there is even a danger of it becoming true, and the best prevention of any such accusation, the best prevention of the use of the, Army here against the workers of England, as the Army has been used in India against the Indian people, is that a sprinkling of the officers of that Army should come from the people and not remain members solely of the upper class.
The Esher Report has been referred to, but I think by the Esher Report hon. Members mean the early report of Lord Esher on the English Army which was issued nine or ten years ago. I should like to have a word or two from the Financial Secretary about the recent Esher? Report on the functions and duties of the Indian Army, because the House knows perfectly well that in that Report there are recommendations that the Indian Army should be used more or less as a police force of the Empire, as it is being used to a very large extent now. I think there are 60,000 Indian troops in Mesopotamia. There are recommendations in that Report for the use of the Indian Army far more widely in the Empire than it is used at the present time. There is a recommendation also that the Indian Army should be put under the War Office. I should like to know whether anything in that direction is being done or contemplated, and whether any saving is expected in our expenditure by any change in that direction.
I would warn the Financial Secretary and Members of this House that there is perhaps nothing which has given greater offence to India since martial law in the Punjab than the Esher Report. One and all, moderates and extremists, in India denounce that Report. They say that the British Government is going to use the Indian Army as their mercenaries for purposes of which the Indian people do not approve. Any use to which we may put that Report must be looked at very carefully and very closely. We must be quite certain that any advantage we are going to get out of the change will be sufficient to outweigh the disadvantage of causing the Indians not only to blaspheme but to have good cause to blaspheme. The right hon. Gentleman and I were both on the Mesopotamian Commission some years ago. We both recommended then that during the War the Indian Army should be under the supreme control of the War Office. That was during the War, when centralised authority was very essential, but I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me when I say that in penning that Report we were thinking about winning the War and not about a permanent arrangement for peace time. Any interference with the rights of a great Dependency like India or any of our great self-governing Dominions as to the uses to which they wish to put their army, any interference, any direction as to how they should use their armed forces, is the last method likely to secure what we want. The greatest care should be taken, particularly in these years of change, how we give the impression to India that we are using India for our own purposes, and I do beg the Financial Secretary to let us know before this Debate closes something about the Esher Report, and to reassure India and make it clear that we are not going to exploit the Indian people as the mercenaries for our Empire.
On a point of Order, may I ask whether, if the Motion, that you do now leave the Chair, is taken immediately, and the House goes into Committee on Vote "A," which probably will pass without discussion, and we then go on to the Vote on Account, the discussion on the Vote of Account would be as wide as is now permitted under the Motion at present before the House? I ask that question because the Secretary of State for War is supposed to have exhausted his right to speak in this particular Debate. If the House goes into Committee would he not then be able to answer hon. Members much more conveniently than at the present stage of the proceedings?
The right hon. Gentleman is quite correct. If the House decides to get me out of the Chair and go into Committee on the Vote on Account there could be a full discussion. It would not be narrowed in any way. The whole subject of the administration of the Army would be open and the Secretary of State for War could make one or more speeches in reply.
Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
Number of Land Forces
Resolved,
"That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 341,000, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian Possessions, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922."
Vote on Account
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £45,000,000, be granted to His Majesty, on account, for defraying the Charges for Army Services which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, namely: —
I beg to move, "That the Vote be reduced by £5,000,000."
I am not going to make a speech in moving.
Having spent 22 years in the Army, I desire to speak in this Debate. I often try to catch Mr. Speaker's eye, but I do not succeed.
I think the hon. Member has made a good many speeches from his seat.
I wish to protest very strongly against the disbandment of four cavalry regiments. With all due respect to the Secretary for War, I do not think he knows anything about military matters. I cannot conceive anyone who knows less about military matters than the right hon. Gentleman; otherwise, is it conceivable that he could authorise the disbandment of these celebrated regiments. What are those regiments? There are two Irish regiments, the 5th Royal Irish Lancers, and the 8th Royal Irish Hussars. There are many loyal Irishmen. I was quartered in Ireland for four years during the War. I was employed doing work among the civilian population in every part of Munster and Leinster, and I can assure you that there was hardly a cottage that you could go into where you did not find a family that has sent somebody to the war, and many never returned. To abolish this Irish regiment, the 5th Lancers, is an insult to Irishmen, and indeed another injustice to Ireland. The Secretary of State for War might have some consideration for the 5th Lancers. Have you no respect for our great Commander-in-Chiefs in France? Lord French spent the whole of his regimental service in the 19th Hussars, and commanded it. So did Sir Phillip Chetwode. Have you no respect for Lord French's regiment? I do not know what the Government is coming to.
Then take the 20th Hussars and 21st Lancers. They are not new cavalry regiments. They are old Indian regiments who have borne the heat and burden of the day out in India while British cavalry regiments were comfortable at home. I speak as an ex-officer of the 7th Hussars. The officers were going to race meetings when quartered at home and were hunt- ing. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame!"] Cavalry regiments were having a good time at home, quartered at places like York, Colchester, Norwich, Leeds and elsewhere, travelling about the country like a circus preparing for the annual inspection, while the 20th Hussars and the 21st Lancers were out in India. And people who have been out in India through the hot weather know how hot it gets there. Now you are treating these regiments with contumely, calling them new regiments. Did you treat Lord Roberts with contumely? He was an old Indian officer. There is no good appealing to the Secretary of State for War or anybody else. I am sorry to say—I hate the "Daily Mail"—I believe the Government has got the wind up and is scrapping those regiments because they are afraid of the Northcliffe Press. It is perfectly appalling and disgusting. You are going to save nothing. This is an economical stunt and a very ill-advised one, too.
Another point. Up to now the cavalry officers, like Lord Haig and Lord French, have been running the Army, but now infantry officers have got their oar in. I saw it in former days. The old Duke of Cambridge was a great gentleman, but there was intense jealousy in those days of the cavalry. Sir Redvers Buller, the Adjutant-General, and the Quartermaster-General, Sir Evelyn Wood, were jealous of the cavalry, but when the South African War came the cavalry, being mounted, were able to surpass the infantry in that warfare, and the result was that the cavalry were top dog and they have been top dog ever since. Now there is a change coming. Now the chief of staff, an infantry officer, has got his oar in, and for the next twenty years you will have the infantry in and the cavalry pushed out, and the long and short of it is you now find four regiments of cavalry demobilised treated with contumely, and this is only the beginning of the end. Cavalry days are over, and I ask hon. Members to put on their considering caps. I am talking in all seriousness, of something that I know. We are not a second-rate nation. We are the biggest empire in the world. The Prime Minister and the Cabinet practically rule the world to-day. Do you mean to tell me that this big empire cannot afford three or four divisions of cavalry? I think that there are 29 cavalry regiments. Can we not afford that? Have we got the wind up so much; are we so afraid that we are going to scrap these historic regiments? It is beyond reason. There will be a day of reckoning for you. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Wrekin (Sir C. Townshend) is not here. I am quite sure that he would agree with what I am saying.
It must be admitted that cavalry is no use in European war anywhere except for mobile defence, even on the plains of France or Germany. That stands to reason, but in an Asiatic land one cavalry regiment with machine guns, adequately equipped with transport and so on, is equal to an infantry brigade. There is no getting away from the fact. It is more mobile and useful in attack. If you get to a flank it could enfilade an infantry brigade or division, and could attack the transport. It can go away at night, and it could in 24 hours get round and do much mischief, and it can reconnoitre. In the South African War, think of the unfortunate infantry regiments and look at the generals who lost their reputation and never came to the front in the South African War Picture what an infantry column is. Three regiments following each other in fours, with an advance guard, wagons, transport, and what not. You could play the dickens with them with mounted men by turning a machine gun on them. What are 29 cavalry regiments? You may very likely have a mutiny in India. Suppose you have trouble in that country. You will want to send cavalry out. If you disband four regiments, you will have to raise troops wherever you can, and you will send out the Yeomanry. They are better now than they were before the War, but not as good as the old Regular cavalry regiment. You must keep these regiments going. Reference has been made to aerial reconnaissance. Is that likely to be of any use to the cavalry? From the strategical point of view it is excellent, but in tactics it is useless. In the days of Ladysmith there was an officer of Lancers who went up in a balloon. He reported that 200 to 300 mounted Boers were coming from a certain direction. When further investigation was made it was found that they were cattle. The truth was that up in the air the officer could not see what they were. I beg and implore the Government, in fact, I tell them that they must keep these cavalry regiments in being. They cannot treat them with contumely. Is the Government trying to play up to the Press? Are they going to be run by the Press? I tell them that they must have cavalry regiments in India, for Africa, and in Egypt.
9.0 P.M.
I do not propose to follow the hon. and gallant Member in his very vigorous and interesting speech on the cavalry, but I wish to refer to one or two questions which affect the Territorial Army. I would emphasise the importance of the strong feeling that exists throughout the Territorial Army that the Director-General of the Territorial Army should be a member of the Army Council. I am aware that this question was often raised before the War, and that up to the time of the War the request was refused, but I would impress upon the Secretary of State that the circumstances now are very different from those which existed before the War, and that the Territorial Army to-day is a very different thing from the Territorial force that existed before the War. I understood that the force was to be known as the Territorial Army. I notice that in many communications issued from the War Office we are referred to as the Territorial force. It may be said that there is not much in a name, but to my mind it is very important. The conditions of service to-day are different—the standard of proficiency is much higher; we have to take our obligation of overseas service. Moreover, it is extremely important that our forces in this country should be regarded as one army, in the first line the Regular Army, and in the second line the Territorial Army. I pray that it may be insisted that the title will always be Territorial Army, and not Territorial force. With the changed conditions, and in view of the fact that in this country now we have six Regular and 14 Territorial divisions, it is not too great a representation to ask that the Director-General should be on the Army Council. I know the argument used against the change. It is that all the interests of the Territorial Army are represented on the Army Council by the Under-Secretary of State, who is a member of it. I have the greatest possible confidence in the present Under-Secretary, Viscount Peel. He is an ex-Commanding Officer in the yeomanry, and he is con- versant with all our needs. But it does not follow that because we have a man of that calibre and experience now, we shall always have an Under-Secretary of State who is conversant with Territorial Army needs, and is really fearless in the matter.
Moreover, there is a strong feeling, whether justified or not, throughout the Territorial Army that the non-professional civilian soldier, in competition with the professional soldier, will, speaking frankly, always get the worst of it. While that is the case there is throughout the Territorial Army a feeling perhaps of insufficient confidence, and confidence can be restored only if it is realised that the case of the Territorial Army was always being represented by someone in the position of a Director-General who can successfully compete with the Regular soldier. I do not say that in any invidious sense, but that is the feeling that exists in the Territorial Army. The last reason that I would give for this suggestion is to my mind a most important one, and that is the sentimental reason. Undoubtedly the Territorial officer and non-commissioned officer and man felt before the War that he was not properly treated. He felt it during the War, and he now, not unnaturally, is extremely sensitive and rather suspicious. He is told, and quite rightly and honestly told, that the Territorial Army of the present and the future is a very different thing from the Territorial force of the past, and he wants to be convinced of it. He is patriotic, and he is prepared to give his time and to work hard, but he does want something to give him more confidence in the future, and I am convinced that no step could be taken which would give the Territorial Army as a whole a greater feeling of confidence, and so go a long way to assist recruiting and to establish that spirit of contented service which we all want to see throughout the Territorial Army, than the fact that the Director-General was to be included in the Army Council.
There are two or three other matters to which I want to make a short allusion, and the first is the question of the marriage allowance. Here again the question of sentiment comes in. When the Territorial Army was reconstituted, men were told that when they were on training they would receive pay and allow- ances at the same rates as the regular soldiers, and indeed a great many men went to camp last year and received their pay and separation allowance. In October of last year an Army Order was issued limiting—and no doubt very properly limiting—the age at which a regular soldier would be entitled to marriage allowance, as it is now called, to 26 years; that is to say, that if he was under 26 years old and married he could not get a marriage allowance. The noncommissioned officer and man of the Territorial Army is not yet aware of the fact that this Order will apply to him, but there will be a good many men, particularly those recruited from the mining districts, where marriage takes place at an earlier stage, who will go into training camp this year anticipating the receipt of this marriage allowance, who will find that this Army Order of October, 1920, applies to them, and the result will be that if there are only one or two cases the men will at once say, "The old story; they tell us these things, and they promise us these things, but once they get us they give us' away." It is most important, to my mind, that any suspicion of a feeling of that sort should be avoided. After all, it will not cost much, and we have no right to say when a civilian should be married or when he should not, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman to see that the married man in the Territorial Army gets his marriage allowance whether he is 26 or not.
I wish now to allude to the question of the officer's outfit allowance, and I do ask that there should be a revision of that. Officers when they join now—and I have had the question asked me by a good many prospective young officers—naturally ask as a first question how much it is going to cost them, and we have been promised that the fact of being an officer in the Territorial Army should not be a tax on the pocket of the officer. We have to tell him that he gets £30 with a new commission as an outfit allowance, and we are bound to tell him at once that that £30 is insufficient to cover the cost of the purchase of his uniform and so on. As a matter of fact, that allowance only includes one suit of clothes; it does not include a great coat, though we often camp in the early spring; it does not include a waterproof, and it does not include any requirements that he is bound to have for camp, such as a valise and so on, and it is quite impossible for him to purchase his outfit for £30. The men are allowed two suits of clothes; the officer is not allowed on that £30 to have a suit of clothes to change into if he gets wet or if he wants to be decently clean when he goes into mess. Therefore, I ask that some reconsideration of this officer's outfit allowance should be gone into. I would suggest that the £30 in the case of the infantry should be increased to £40, and that the £40 in the case of gunners and yeomanry should be increased to £50. I am quite sure that that would do much to alleviate what is a real hardship on young officers and to increase recruiting.
There is another question on the outfit allowance, with regard to the £15 allowance for officers on re-engagement. That is to say, officers who have served before are allowed £15 for renewal of uniform, and I would ask that orders be given for a more generous supervision of the granting of these allowances. I know of a case of a field officer who served throughout the War, who had two tunics and two pairs of breeches repaired, and who, when he sent in his receipted bill in order to get this money refunded, had it returned because he was told that only one suit of clothes was allowed to a Territorial officer. I suggest that these are a class of officer we want particularly—these men who served throughout the War—in the Territorial Army and that we should treat generously in the matter of the renewal of their uniform. I have referred to cases which I think important at the present moment and which I know are engaging the attention of Territorials generally and have been the particular concern of County Territorial Associations. If I might, I would very humbly press upon the right hon. Gentleman a fact of which I am quite sure he is convinced himself, a fact that wants to be known and realised by the Territorial Army as a whole, and that is that the Territorial Army can have confidence in promises that are made to them, that they can be certain that what is said will be fulfilled, and that no statement will be made that is not capable of fulfilment.
Perhaps, at this stage of the Debate, it would be convenient that I should answer some of the points which have been raised. The right hon. Gentleman (Sir D. Maclean) commenced by regretting that full details of the Army Estimates were not before the House when this Debate took place. That regret I share with him, but I hope it will be possible in future years to have the full printed book with all the details in the hands of Members before we come to debate the Army accounts as we are now doing. It would involve the settlement of the sum to be spent for the purposes of the Army at a much earlier date than has been customary. It would probably involve the settlement of that sum about the end of October or in November, because the work of providing the details of all the accounts, adjusting the sum of all the various amounts, and getting the Army accounts printed and in the hands of Members, is a task of great magnitude, which occupies a considerable time. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the case of Territorials in his own constituency, and made some representation, if not complaint, that a line regiment, a distinguished regiment, had disappeared, and in their place a howitzer battery was to be provided by his constituency, and he regretted the change, which, he said, was contrary to the feeling of the people in the locality. Of course, the difficulty of the War Office is great, because we have, in considering the Territorial Army, to consider it as a whole. We must consider what is the most efficient and complete Army. We could not have a whole Army composed of line regiments, nor could we have a whole Army composed of cavalry or artillery. There has to be a due proportion of each service. There is also a limitation, and that is the total size of the Army that we set out to create. When those two things are taken together, we find ourselves up against the very difficulty which the right hon. Gentleman has found in his constituency. I can assure the Committee that the subject is one which has received the most earnest attention and consideration at the War Office. Numerous representations have been made on the subject of the change in the different localities, and due weight has been given to all the representations made. The matter has been very thoroughly and carefully, and, I may say, very sympathetically considered by all those who have anything to do with it.
The right hon. Gentleman made some comparison of the Estimates of this year with the Estimates of the preceding year, and he endeavoured to show that the reduction in the amount to be spent was not as much as was represented by the papers in the hands of Members. I cannot follow him in the argument that we ought to compare the figures which he put before the Committee. It seems to me we have got to compare the amount which was actually spent last year with the amount we suppose we shall spend this coming year. It would be impossible, I think, for the War Office, or anyone, to anticipate more than is within our knowledge now. For example, we cannot anticipate new wars, and it would be impossible at this stage to anticipate such events as occurred last year of an unexpected character, such as the outbreak in Mesopotamia, troubles in Ireland, and things of that kind, which have brought upon the country unexpected expenditure. He spoke of the creation of the Middle East Department. In that connection I do not think there is very much point really, because the taxpayer will have to pay the tax just the same, whether it be under the one heading or under the other, and the House of Commons will have the very great advantage of having a Minister here to answer not only for the expenditure of the money but also for the policy which is involved, and which causes the expenditure of the money, and which, at the present time, is not a matter that is left in the hands of the War Office. The policy is not dictated by the War Office. The policy of the Near East Department will be more or less in the hands of the Minister, and therefore is more directly connected with that Department than the War Office.
Then a point was made by the right hon. Gentleman of certain increases which appear in Vote A, and he called attention, and very properly so, to increases in connection with various services there. The Corps of Military Police, I think, was the first to which he called attention. The figures given are those of the Establishment, and they are therefore provisional, as they always are. The excess over what was provided in the Establishment last year figures under the head of "Additional numbers temporarily borne on the strength (wartime sick and wounded, men in course of de- mobilisation)." The figure last year was not the actual figure, but the Establishment figure. The actual figure last year was 2,500. The estimate this year is 1,915, but I should explain that we believe this year, in fixing the Establishment, we shall be more close to the actual figure than we were able to be last year when demobilisation was going on. Therefore, I think the Committee may have confidence that these figures are closer to the real facts than the figures we were able to give at the time demobilisation was going on last year. A very considerable difference occurs in the case of the Royal Army Service Corps. The Committee will observe that last year the provisional Establishment was shown at a total of 15,074, but the actual number of the men that time was 35,200, and the comparison therefore is more properly made between the 35,200 and the 17,713 now shown as the Establishment, which we hope and reasonably believe is close to what the average figure of the year will be. With regard to the Royal Army Pay Corps, in which I am particularly interested, because it comes more or less under my own Department at the War Office, I would call attention to the fact that on the line lower down the officers were shown for last year, and are not shown now, so that 332 have to be added. The actual number, therefore, of the Army Pay Corps last year was 1,696 as against 1,384 this year, which is a considerable reduction.
I would like to give the actual figures of the War Office Staff. Taking the total of military and civilians together—and these are the actual figures of the numbers of men employed—the War Office Staff on 1st April, 1920, was 815 military and 6,619 civilians, a total of 7,434. On 1st March, 1921, the total was 633 military and 4,903 civilians, or a total of 5,536, and a reduction therefore of 1,898 or over 25 per cent. That is the total employed in the War Office. Taking the Finance Department of the War Office alone—and the work of that Department has been exceedingly hard, not only during the War but subsequent to the War—there were employed in that Department on the 1st March, 1920, 1,664. On the 1st March, 1921, there were 827, that is a difference of one-half. I pass to the remarks made by the hon. and gallant Member for the Abingdon Division (Brigadier-General Wigan). He spoke of the sum appearing in the account as the charge for improving the permanent way of the Kantara Railway. He said that that was not a charge that should properly fall on the War Office but should be borne either by the Government of Palestine or of Egypt. With that view I find myself very much in agreement. I do not think it is any breach of confidence when I say that this appears on the agenda of the right hon. Gentleman, the Minister for the Colonies, who has gone to Egypt, and that it is one of the matters which he is to take up there. We hope, therefore, that another year we shall not have a similar entry on our accounts. The hon. Member for East Rhondda (Major Morgan) spoke of the expenditure of £2,500,000 on Chinese labour. I think he was under the impression that we had continued to employ Chinese labour longer than was necessary, and that these Chinese labourers ought at an earlier date to have been sent home. He seemed to think that this sum was paid to the Chinese labourers during a recent period. That is not so. The Chinese labourers were sent home, and their pay was settled by the Consuls in China. The matter was then dealt with by the paymaster at Hong Kong, and some time afterwards the accounts came home in a final shape. Then we found at the War Office, as the rate of exchange had varied in the meantime and was considerably different, that we were saddled with £2,500,000 through the difference in the exchange. The hon. Member spoke of an expenditure of £471,000 on new buildings, and desired that that might be postponed. The Committee will hardly agree with that view when it comes to the main item of expenditure, which is for the provision of quarters for married soldiers. We all know there is a general shortage of houses in the country, and that is not less felt in the Army than outside. There are far more married men in the Army now than there used to be. It is also true to say that the standard of the existing barrack accommodation in the married quarters is not so good as it ought to be. On those three grounds, therefore, I think that the expenditure on the improvement and provision of married quarters is a necessary one which we cannot avoid, even in this year when we are trying to avoid and postpone every expense that is possible.
The hon. Member for the Toobridge Division (Lieut.-Colonel Spender Clay) spoke of the provision of full dress for the Army, and asked whether it was intended to continue the provision of the old uniforms for the whole of the Army. It is not intended at the present time to proceed with that. It is intended to provide the old uniforms for bandsmen. There are various reasons for that, and one is that the bands find difficulty in getting the engagements which go a long way to help to pay for them and to provide what is necessary for them. On that and on other grounds it has been decided to go so far, but it is not intended at the present time to proceed further in the direction of providing the old uniforms. The same hon. and gallant Gentleman spoke of the education that is being provided in the Army. He welcomed the development of education, and asked whether the old soldier would have to learn, and if he would lose proficiency pay if he did not get a second class certificate. The position is that a young soldier does have to learn and to get a second class certificate before he gets proficiency pay. And old soldier, however, who served during the War, does not have to have a second class certificate.
The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Lieut.-Colonel Croft) stated that, in his judgment, Palestine was a very expensive acquisition at the cost of £7,000,000 a year. He thought it was a great burden, and that it was against the general wish of the country that it should continue. We all agree with him. I do not think there is any great section of the community that contemplates with equanimity the continuance of an outgoing of this sort of £7,000,000 a year for Palestine. This, however, is exactly one of those points that the Minister for the Colonies has gone out to deal with. It is not a matter really with which the War Office has anything to do. Perhaps I should not even venture to express the hope, but my hope is that we shall not again have to face anything of that sort in connection with Palestine. The hon. and gallant Gentleman wishes permission to be given to recruit, over the establishment of the Territorial Force in order to provide for men who would be transferred to the Regular Army. That is a matter which deserves inquiry, and I promise to look into, it at the War Office. He also, with other hon. Members of the Committee, has spoken strongly in favour of direct representation of the Territorial Force on the Army Council. My right hon. Friend has already dealt with that subject, and I will not take it further. I welcome very heartily, however, and I am sure the War Office, including the Secretary of State, also welcome the interest which the Committee has taken this evening in the whole subject of the Territorial Army. An hon. and gallant Gentleman behind me spoke of some papers which had gone out, I think, with "Territorial Force" on them instead of "Territorial Army." I can only say that must have been an oversight, because there is no intention to depart from the view that it is the Territorial Army, and the expressions of sympathy with that army which have fallen from Members of the Committee to-night are most encouraging, and I personally welcome them heartily.
The hon. and gallant Member for New-castle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) seemed to have a difference of view with his neighbours as to the merits of cavalry and tanks. It would ill-become me to venture on a discussion of that technical nature. He spoke further of technical education for trade. That matter has been taken up with very considerable care and sympathy in the War Office. I will send him a pamphlet issued some little time ago dealing with this whole subject of education in the Army, and pointing out that it is now possible for young men joining the Army to learn the rudiments of a trade of a technical kind. They can learn not only the driving of motor cars, but they can go further and learn something of electricity and other useful things, which may enable them to earn a living in trade when they have ceased to be soldiers. That has been carefully considered and is being developed, and very shortly we hope to have some practical results from it. The hon. and gallant Gentleman also spoke of the need to encourage a certain proportion of ranker officers. That is a matter on which I fail to find a want of sympathy at the War Office, and he may depend on it that nothing will be done to interfere with the general wish of the country that it should be possible for suitable men to rise from the ranks to be officers.
Has there been any difficulty put in the way of sending their sons to Woolwich and Sandhurst lately?
I know of none, but I should think that there may be some general discouragement from joining in one sense, because we are really reducing the number of officers just now. A Committee over which I am presiding is endeavouring to reduce the number of officers, as we have far too many officers in proportion to the number of troops. That has to be done as the first step. I know of no particular impediment, however, to any particular officer joining Sandhurst. The hon. Gentleman spoke of the Esher Report. I think my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will deal with that when he conies to reply later in the Debate. The hon. Member for one of the Divisions of Sussex spoke of the marriage allowance and the difficulty of the Territorials who have expected a certain marriage allowance which they now find, according to the Regulations, they will not get. That is a matter which will require to be looked into. It has been looked into in respect to the Regular Army, and I think a fair measure of justice and equity arrived at. I myself sat on a Committee that considered the matter in conjunction with the Admiralty and the Air Force, and, having given the matter full consideration, I think we have arrived at an equitable decision. It is possible that the position of the Territorials may have been overlooked, but we shall carefully look into it. I speak with respect to those already in the force.
The officer's outfit allowance is another matter which, personally, I feel very sympathetic about. It is difficult to say whether £30 outfit allowance will or will not be enough. We are living in a time of falling prices, fortunately for most of us, and it may be that the cost of these uniforms may be reduced. However, I promise that we shall look into the matter, for we do not want the Territorial officer to feel that he is not properly treated, and has not got the sum to which in equity he is entitled. There is also the sum of £15 for the renewal of worn or partly worn-out uniforms. The hon. and gallant Gentleman who raised the point wishes a generous allowance to be made, where needed, because it is not intended to stereotype the particular amount. Of course, it is quite true that there are some officers who were not out long in the War who have returned with practically new uniforms. Were we to give them a sum of money it would be simply making them a present of a new uniform which they do not require. There are others whose uniforms are absolutely worn out. In this case the £15 will be inadequate, but we will look into the matter in a sympathetic way. Generally speaking, I again say how much I welcome, and the War Office, too, the interest which the Committee has taken, particularly in the welfare and improvement of the Territorial Army, for that is a force which I am sure, without disparagement to other branches of the Army, the country takes very deep and abiding interest in. After what it has done in the War, and the way it proved its great value in the defence of the country—not quite unexpectedly—I think the Committee may feel confident that its interests will not be forgotten by the War Office.
We have had a discussion where, naturally, the experts have mostly each vied with the other in their particular department, and therefore a mere layman hesitates to intervene in matters of this sort. Seeing, however, that the laymen have to provide the bulk of the money, perhaps it is not altogether out of place to offer a protest in favour of economy, notwithstanding the battle royal which has gone on between the experts of each particular section, who have put in a claim for their share for the money which is to be spent. I heard with astonishment the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Bournemouth, whom we look upon as an apostle of economy in this House, put in a special plea that the cavalry, particularly, should not be reduced, and that economy effected. It is the old story—economy everywhere, but do not economise on the one thing or the particular body—
May I interrupt the hon. Gentleman? I never had anything to do with the cavalry. All I suggested was that the task of disbanding six or seven regiments of cavalry should not be lightly undertaken.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman particularly wishes that the cavalry which he undertakes, doubtless for a very good reason, should not be reduced. He suggests that the economy should begin anywhere, but not there. That is the difficulty we feel in this House generally when economy is broached. The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken took exception to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peebles putting forward the figures he did, and the Minister of War took exception to the parallels he drew. But I notice the right hon. Gentleman did not substantiate his defence by any particular figures. I think he would find some difficulty in that. The right hon. Gentleman says, "Oh, you must not compare last year with this year, but this year with the amount actually spent last year." But surely just as unforeseen contingencies have arisen during the past year to swell the Estimate of a year ago by nearly £26,000,000 we may have a succession of Supplementary Estimates during the forthcoming year which will unfortunately produce the same effect. It is of some interest to know that the amount of the reduction which the right hon. Gentleman claimed this year, £25,500,000, is exactly the amount of the Supplementary Estimates which he has put forward during the year. If he objects to that comparison may we go back to pre-War times. We have been told that the exceptional charges are gradually disappearing and we are getting back to a normal level. If we compare the expenditure for the forthcoming year with the last pre-War year, 1913–14, I do not think the right hon. Gentleman can extract any satisfaction from such a comparison. In 1913–14 the Estimate, with the Air force shown, was £29,000,000. Multiply that by the recognised sum of two-and-a-half the difference in values then and now, and you get £73,000,000 for the combined Army and Air services. Against that you have the Estimate to-day of £95,000,000 for the Army and £18,000,000 for Air, a total of £113,000,000, in this period when you have got back more or less to normal conditions. This should be compared with, say, £73,000,000 in the last pre-War year. And the right hon. Gentleman says, "See what a magnificent reduction we are making with our expenditure, what really economies we are effecting." If he objects to that comparison, may I ask him to follow another. May I put the Chancellor of the Exchequer in—an authority that surely he will recognise. The Chancellor in the normal year, which he sketched for us a short time ago, took the figures for the Army and the Air at £75,000,000, as compared with £113,000,000 for which the right hon. Gentleman is budgeting. I submit an increase of nearly 50 per cent. in excess of the normal year estimated for by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of this Government is hardly a reason for claiming any special virtue for economy. I will quote the Chancellor of the Exchequer again. Speaking in this House last December as to the need and opportunity for economy, the right hon. Gentleman said that the only method of effecting a saving on a considerable scale was in the War Department, and yet in March this year the Secretary for War comes down, and instead of carrying out the hope and promise of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he shows an increase of nearly 50 per cent. above the estimated figure for the normal year of that right hon. Gentleman. I submit that these figures show no real desire for economy, and it is to be regretted that 2½ years after the War, a war to end war, a war in which the German Army disappeared, and when we have practically no enemies of any substance abroad, we are now budgeting for an increase of nearly 50 per cent. above the forces supposed to be required when the whole of Europe was an armed camp.
We are asked to economise in education and health, things that are of vital importance, and yet we waste our substance in adventures all over the world, in Mesopotamia, Palestine, Russia and other places, and we come down to this House and are asked to support this bloated expenditure on armaments. The right hon. Gentleman asked how can we economise. He referred to Ireland. Yet his predecessor, speaking in this House when criticised because the Irish policy was adding to the expenditure of the Army, retorted that they had to keep the Army somewhere, and if the troops were not in Ireland they would be in England or somewhere else, and he sought to justify his policy, in Ireland because it would not lead to any extra expenditure on the Army. Yet when the Army Estimates came on the Secretary for War having passed into another sphere, his successor said, "Look at the tremendous expense of the Army in Ireland. We cannot cut that down, and, therefore, we have this bloated expenditure." I sub- mit if we are to have faith in the League of Nations, if we are to have faith in those things for which we fought, we want to show to the world by practical example that we have such faith by reducing armaments. What good is it compelling Germany to abandon her army if we add to the expenditure on our own to so very large an extent. Those who believe in the League of Nations must trust it most. Although some may hesitate to pin their faith to it, I submit it is better to pin one's faith to the League rather than incur the certain disaster to which the policy we are following is bound to lead us. The way to national and European bankruptcy lies in the maintenance of bloated armaments 2½ years after the War, and I do not think the Government have any right to claim credit for economy when their expenditure on the Army represents 50 per cent. above the amount which the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the name of economy suggested was desirable.
I do not propose to follow the hon. Member who has just spoken in his criticism on Army expenditure, but as one who takes an interest in the Army I hope I may be allowed to make a few suggestions as to where perhaps some economies might be effected. I should like at the outset to support the remarks which have been made with regard to the Territorial Army. Though I have never been connected with it, I have had the honour of fighting alongside it as a member of a regiment with which I am always proud to be connected and I can say that that Territorial brigade under arms in France in January, 1915, had no reason to be ashamed. In that respect I think our Territorials had a certain amount of complaint against the Government in that these were the men who had prepared themselves for the War and they got nothing more out of the War except that they were shot at longer than other people. The Government would be well-advised if every Territorial on service at the beginning of the War had been given a special distinction to show that he had trained himself as fully as possible and prepared himself to fight for his country in the day of need. The Government did not take that opportunity of paying what was really a very small debt to the men, an honorary gift. The Territorials have really given us so much that it would have been a great thing if they had had that done for them in the past.
We have heard to-night the Parliamentary Secretary to the War Office speaking most appreciatively of the way hon. Members have supported the Territorial Army, and saying that it is a great encouragement to him to know that so keen an interest is taken in that force by hon. Members of this House. I am sure that any of us who know all they did for us during the War owe them a great debt of gratitude. I will touch upon one way in which, I think, there might possibly be an economy. We have heard a great deal about the change of units from infantry into armoured car companies or artillery, or various other forms, so as to make our Territorial Army, practically speaking, our second army. I hope, and I believe that every Member of this Committee hopes, that in the immediate future we are not going to have to send two armies out of England if ever we have to arm ourselves to defend our shores. I am all for encouraging men in all parts of the country to join our Territorial force, and to train themselves to the idea of manhood, that in the case of need it is the duty of every citizen to defend his country. It is of enormous advantage to the health of our men and the interest they take in their holidays to have a smattering of soldiering. These regimenal officers are the men who really did the hard work, and I maintain that they are the people who should get the extra pay. I should like to see the pay of the staff, which is now very highly paid, reduced, and the regimental officer getting the pay when he does the work. These are the people who really made the Territorial Force through the work of the officers, N.C.Os. and men during the War. I believe we could make an economy if we did not pay the staff as highly as we do, and at the same time we should be willing to help those men who are willing to give their time to learning the art of soldiering. I refer to the staff in this way—I never got there myself, so perhaps that is the reason—because I do think that one would like to feel that our Army was not all head and no tail. It seems to me that with regard to the Vote of £1,000,000 to-day—and it is a very considerable sum—I wish to bear out what was said by an hon. Member opposite, who pointed out the large staff at Constantinople, and said that it seemed to be a ridiculous thing that they had only got one brigade there and a ridiculously large staff for such a small force.
I notice that there is a very large Vote standing on the Paper under Sub-head 3. The hon. and gallant Member who opened this question pointed out that it was a splendid thing to spend money on education. I am in entire agreement. I think it is a very splendid thing, but I should like to know how much under that head is being devoted to educational purposes. We quite appreciate that the expenses of our hospitals must still be great as we still have 55,000 men on our strength undergoing treatment in hospital. I think that when Members criticise the amount of these payments they should look at points such as this, which are the war legacy we have still to pay in the shape of hospitals which are tending the wounded who are still suffering from the War. None of us grudge this expense, and it is unfair to say that the increase in the Estimates is unreasonable when we are still charged with that sort of debt. But when one comes to the question of education I should be better pleased if we could have had the exact amount that is going to be spent on that particular item. Personally I do not know that it is going to be a particular advantage to our soldier to be able to do algebraic sums correctly. To say that a man is not able to earn 3s. 6d. a day unless he can do a sum of algebra and knows a certain amount of geometry and geography is a ridiculous proposition. I should do everything to put the necessary means of obtaining education, particularly technical education, in the way of our soldiers, but to spend a vast sum on compulsorily educating our soldiers is really unnecessary at this moment, and a large reduction of this cost could be made. One sees that the officers and other ranks included in the Army Education Corps amount to an establishment of 781. That seems to be a big staff, and it is absurd to be told that every subaltern who joins his Majesty's Army must in future be a schoolmaster, and after he has trained his men in the art of war, must go on and train them in the art of doing algebraic sums. These officers are going to do that on their pay; they are not going to receive any of these extra grants. If they have to do this, they ought to be paid extra for doing educational work. By all means put in these men's way—if they have the ability to use it—an opportunity of bettering their education, but it is really going to be very little use to a great number of men, and I have very great doubts whether this is the moment we shall be going in for a vast educational scheme which is outside the regular order of our Army.
10.0 P.M.
I have no intention whatever of opposing the Vote on Account, but I question whether some of the items that now come before us will be necessary in the future. I doubt whether these big sums should be spent on making large buildings for technical and other purposes for our tanks. I personally had the honour of serving in that corps. I know what a tank is, and that tanks cost a great deal of money during the War. That money was well spent. The Tank Corps did splendid services and helped in many engagements to end the War; but I question now whether this is the moment to build big technical buildings. What they will be I do not exactly know. I suspect that they are stores, but I cannot believe that there is the amount of tanks now that there was before the War, and there must be a great number of empty sheds in which those tanks were stored which could be used to keep them in. There might be economy in this direction. I see that there is also going to be the building of other quarters for the accommodation of the tank battalion. We have not got the full details, and I do not know exactly how the tank battalion is now organised. I only hope that it is not kept up to its full war strength. That would be a very unnecessary expenditure. Every experiment of putting these methods of warfare on their trial, in case it is ever necessary for this country to fight battles, should be as scientific as possible, but it seems unnecessary to retain a big force of tanks. We have a certain number out with our Army on the Rhine, and I suppose they are really supernumary to our permanent establishment, and are not a portion of our Regular Army of pre-war days. I believe, therefore, that if we are to have economy it is necessary to do everything we can to try to reduce expenditure on everything that is not of real fighting value at the moment. On the education of the soldier an unnecessary expense seems to be portended. There also seems to be an unnecessary expenditure on building. I agree that we want quarters for our married noncommissioned officers and men. I am afraid I am not Very much in favour of encouraging non-commissioned officers and men being married when we consider that our troops have to go to India for many years. It is a serious outlook to the nation when we have to consider sending abroad not only the Army but the men's wives and families. Personally I am in favour of every man entering into the holy state of matrimony at an early age, but if we want soldiers let us make up our mind to do our soldiering and then marry. I again press on the right hon. Gentleman to do everything he can to curtail expenditure in detail as I feel certain he will find difficulties with the War Office military advisers. I always find that the military advisers are always determined to keep up those parts of the Army they consider their own special protegy. I do say the greatest economy should be practiced and curtailment should not be only in the higher branches, but consideration should be paid to the most minor details.
There is one point in connection with these Estimates in which I think there is general agreement, that is, there is some continuing tendency for economy in the expenditure upon the Army, but as on many occasions where economies are attempted, the economies drop in the wrong place, and I am particularly requested to draw attention to one aspect of this matter. We understand that in the service of the War Office there has been a large number of women, and it is said that these women—women with dependants in many cases—are at the present moment being discharged, and that the private secretaries to heads of departments, some of whom have private means, are being retained at the time these women clerks are being dispensed with. Further, I am to say that most of these women have sat for a special examination, and that owing to the Government policy of refusing to issue the results of these examinations, these women find themselves on the unemployment market with nothing to stand upon from the point of view of making application for any appointments elsewhere. If these facts are as stated, I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman it is a matter that needs his closest and immediate attention.
Upon the general question that has been discussed, I am afraid that any point of view I may present will be considered unorthodox, particularly having regard to the discussion we have had during the day. We have had the rival claims of infantry and cavalry, tanks and machine guns, hussars and the like discussed, and it does seem to me, in view of the colossal sums that are involved in connection with these services and the vast fighting machine which is involved, particularly after the pronouncement that has been made about the war to end war and putting down militarism at all times, it becomes repulsive owing to its repetition, on the lines we have had this afternoon. Further, having regard to the discussions which have taken place from time to time in respect of the hope we have towards the League of Nations, and are expecting to hold out in that direction in the future, the whole discussion is a sad reflection upon that ideal and outlook There is one observation I desire to make in connection with the expenditure upon the Army in Mesopotamia. Whether this Committee believes it or not, it is a fact that there is a large volume of opinion in the country that holds to the belief that there is some sinister reason for our Army being in that quarter. I am quite willing to agree—and I think it is very necessary in order to be fair—that that point has been repudiated in this House. The then Secretary of State for War, speaking in December, in the course of a Debate in this House, gave expression to these words: have the "Daily Mail" giving expression to the following:
Then comes the question of military expenditure in Ireland, and I want to take this opportunity of reiterating the point of view of those with whom I am associated. The first plank of our programme in regard to Ireland is the immediate withdrawal of the military forces from that country. We believe that peace in Ireland will come sooner with the military out of the country than with the military in the country, and that so long as the military stop there it only intensifies the trouble and wastes public money. Whatever items of this military expenditure can be justified, we believe that there are two items which cannot be justified, and that no military expenditure either in Mesopotamia or in Ireland can be justified from the point of view of advantage to this country or of general benefit to humanity. The general estimate of military expenditure is a sad reflection on the pronouncements that have been made with regard to our endeavours to secure a world peace, and, even if some reservations had to be made in some directions, yet, tested by the possibility of what can come from military operations in Ireland and Mesopotamia, the whole expenditure stands condemned.
We have all heard with regret that the Secretary of State has been compelled to come to the conclusion that, in addition to the reduction of 45 yeomanry regiments, he must abolish four regular cavalry regiments. I am afraid it looks as though the time were coming when we shall hardly have a man left in England who knows anything of horse management whatever. I am sorry to hear that three of the four regular regiments which it is proposed to abolish are the old Indian cavalry regiments, and also that it is these light cavalry regiments that are to be abolished. The old days of the Crimea and of the Heavy Cavalry Brigade, whose exploits we know so well, are gone. The hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon (Brigadier-General Wigan) has told us how the cavalry with him in Syria covered 75 miles in 36 hours. It may be that cavalry will be required for operations of that sort in the future, but heavy cavalry could not cover 75 miles in 36 hours. I think we require a very light body of cavalry and I hope if any cavalry is to be reduced it will not be the light but the heavy cavalry. The right hon. Gentleman did not tell us whether, when these four regiments are reduced, the same option will be given to them as has been given to the yeomanry of turning themselves into machine gun or tank corps or anything else. A great many of the cavalry during the War became machine gun corps. When you have these old regiments with a great tradition of discipline, it is a great pity to disband them and scatter them, and I should like to think that if these regiments are to be reduced as cavalry they will be taken over bodily and turned into machine gun or some other corps where they can retain their old cohesion. I trust the right hon. Gentleman will consider this and see if something cannot be done, and will not disband the regiments and disburse the officers and men to the various quarters of the globe.
The right hon. Gentleman referred us to the necessity of keeping 50,000 men in Ireland, and he also referred to India The condition of India is a very dangerous one at present. We do not know what may not turn up there at any time. It may be necessary, if we are to save the lives of our countrymen, that we may have to largely reinforce the garrison with Europeans. Under these circumstances, to make large reductions at present is very dangerous indeed, and I hope no further reduction will be thought of till things have settled down more than they have at present. We have now got a certain amount of the Territorial Force, but what I take it is the real force we ought to try to get as soon as possible is the reconstitution of the old Militia or Special Reserve, so that we may be able to reinforce our regular troops going abroad without the necessity of further legislation. The Territorial Force does not go abroad except in the event of general conscription being ordered, and we may be required, either in Constantinople, the Black Sea, India, or anywhere where the lives of our countrymen are in danger, to send troops oversea, and I think it is a mistaken policy to use all our efforts in getting up a Territorial Force and entirely neglecting the Special Reserve. I should like to see the Militia re-started at once so that we may have a reserve in case of any sudden emergency arising where we do not wish to have recourse to a general system of conscription. I hope this question will be taken into consideration by the Army Council, for it appears to me we have no sufficient reserve whatever for any troops we may have to send abroad to the Near East, the Middle East, or even the Far East, should necessity arise.
The question has been referred to of the marriage allowance to officers. It is given to officers at 30 years of age and to men at 26. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider whether there ought to be this difference between officers and men. If the age is fixed for men at 26, why should an officer have to wait till 30 years of age? An officer can marry just as young as a man, and there should be one age for the whole Service. I hope the hon. Gentleman will put a stop to this rule that no married officer can get any marriage allowance until 30 years of age.
A great deal has been said about having a direct representative of the Territorial Army on the Army Council. The plea advanced by the Secretary for War that the Under-Secretary will best represent the Territorial Army is unfounded. The present Under-Secretary certainly has some knowledge of the Yeomanry, but, good Heavens! the next Under-Secretary may be a conscientious objector; he may be anything. The Under-Secretary may represent work connected with the County Territorial Associations, but he does not represent the spirit of thousands of men in the Territorial Army. In addition to the Under-Secretary a representative of the combatant ranks of the Territorial Army should be a member of the Army Council.
The question of barracks has been raised. No doubt the Financial Secretary will have listened to officers who have come from Cologne and other places, and will have heard them praise the fine German barracks in which they are living, and compare them most unfavourably with our own barracks at home. Out of the comparison our barracks have come very badly. I have heard that many of our barracks are so bad that they are unfit for occupation. I agree that the cost of building at the present time is tremendous, and I can realise that it would be better to postpone erecting buildings as far as possible, and only go in for what is absolutely necessary. The question of officers' outfit allowance is another matter which I hope the Financial Secretary will take into consideration. Will he try to get endeavours made so that the prices of uniforms can be lowered as much as pos- sible? The price charged by tailors is very heavy. I have given him instances of the very high prices charged by military tailors. There ought to be a maximum price fixed, or some arrangement made, by which tailors are not allowed to fix fancy prices. The paying of this allowance is also leading to no end of trouble. An officer may want his £30 but he cannot get it because he moves round in a vicious circle. He orders his uniform and the tailor prepares his uniform, and then he goes to draw his money but the Government Pay Department refuses to give him the money until he produces his receipted bill. The tailor refuses to give him a receipted bill until he gets his money; the officer has no money, consequently the thing goes on. I have heard of commanding officers who have had to advance the money to the tailor to get the receipted bill and then the officer has not been able to get his money until two or three months afterwards. Some arrangement ought to be made by which the money could be paid promptly. Many young officers who are now joining the Territorial Army have not the £30 or £50 with which to pay for their uniform. I trust the right hon. Gentleman will simplify the procedure in the Government Pay Office.
A question has been raised about the Esher Report and the use of Indian troops. We have most magnificent troops in India, who are ready and only too willing to serve abroad in any part of the world. The officers and men are splendid, but there is a certain class of men in India who are working for the destruction of the Government of India and of the Indian Army. Their first object is to try to destroy the Indian Army. The Indian Army is thoroughly loyal. At present we have a danger of insurrection in some parts of the country but the Army is with us. The Indian Army has no objection to serve abroad. We know with what willingness they served all through the War. We have these complaints made by denationalised Indians; men who come to Europe and have lost their Indian nationality largely, and are trying to make trouble in India and to break up the British Empire. The Indian Army is ready to be used whenever it is required and always willing to come forward to help the British Government, their King, and their Empire in every possible way.
One of the previous speakers has mentioned that there is a civilian majority on the Army Council. The Secretary of State for War, in referring to this, rather implied that it is not a matter of any great importance because there is never any question of voting and the heads of various military Departments, which form the Army Council, are really more in the nature of advisers to the Secretary of State. But occasions may often arise when the question of a vote is bound to come up. Such an incident occurred a short time ago when the conduct of General Dyer was under discussion and the Army Council had to give a very important pronouncement on his conduct. I believe on that occasion that the late Secretary of State refrained from appointing two Civil Secretaries as members of the Army Council, so that they would not be submitted to a majority if a vote were taken, but I do think that it is a very important matter, because as the House will realise if the Secretary of State for War comes to the House and says that a certain decision has been taken by the Army Council, and Members are bound to look upon that decision as a military decision, and if there is a civil majority on the Army Council it is not a military decision but it may very easily be a decision of civilians. Such a state of affairs is likely to create a great want of confidence in the Army and in the country.
I would like to say a few words on the Territorial Army. This question has been so thoroughly discussed that it is difficult to avoid traversing some ground that has been thoroughly covered. I wish to emphasise the great importance which I, and, I am sure, all Members of the Territorial Force, attach to membership of the Army Council by the Director-General of the Territorial Army. The Territorial Army is now a force of 14 Divisions and it is extremely important that it should have direct representation on the Army Council. The right hon. Gentleman in his reply stated that the Territorial Army was already represented on the Army Council by the Under-Secretary of State. Although I realise fully what we owe to Viscount Peel for the excellent work he has done for the Territorial Army, I do not think this is a very satisfactory solution of the matter. As has been pointed out, the Under Secre- tary may not always be an ex-Territorial officer and I do not think it is a question of his being a Territorial officer at all. In fact, as the House knows, the Director-General is a Regular Army officer. I would prefer that a Regular officer should represent the Territorial Army on the Army Council. Having served in the Army both as a Regular officer and with the Territorial Force, I have discovered that a Territorial officer is rather forced to take a back seat in comparison with the Regular officer. The Territorial Army would have their interests better upheld by a Director-General who happened to be a distinguished officer of the Regular Army.
The Secretary of State said that the War Office were well satisfied with the present strength of the Territorial Army. There are several things which must have interfered seriously with recruiting in the Territorial Army. One has not so far been mentioned. In certain parts of the country men will not join the Territorial Army because they have the idea in their heads that in certain circumstances they may be sent to Ireland to fight against the Sinn Feiners. I feel certain that if the Secretary of State could have a statement published widely throughout the country that under no circumstances would the Territorial Army be used to quell rebellion in Ireland, it would have a very desirable effect on recruiting. One other matter I must mention. I hold a command in the Territorial Army. When I have gone to the War Office to bring forward certain grievances I have found great difficulty in getting matters attended to in the way in which I think they ought to be treated. I have been on many occasions to the office of the Director-General, where I have always found the Director-General or his representative most kind and obliging in every possible way. The difficulties which I have represented have always been most carefully looked into by him, but what I have found is that, having returned to the War Office some month or six weeks after to find out what has been done, the Director-General has always told me that my grievance or recommendation has been represented in certain quarters, but he cannot say what has happened further. That is a very unsatisfactory state of affairs. So far as I can gather, the present office of Director-General acts as a sort of narrow neck of a bottle. Everything goes in through that neck, but it disappears into the bottle; and once it has gone in nobody, not even the Director-General himself, knows what has happened to it. I will not take up any more time, except to impress most strongly on the right hon. Gentleman the importance of restoring confidence in the Territorial Army. The Territorial soldier is rather a suspicious person. He is told by his predecessors of the old Territorial force that they were very badly let down in the early days of the War, and he is told to look out that he is not let down in the future, and I am quite certain that it is impossible to overestimate the importance of establishing confidence throughout the Territorial Army that their interests will be properly represented at the War Office.
The subject to which I desire to call the attention of the Committee will, no doubt, appear somewhat minor in comparison with the great political, financial, and military problems which we have been discussing this afternoon, but I think the Secretary of State for War at least will agree with me when I suggest to him that his task will be lightened materially if he is able to rely upon the goodwill of the rank and file of the men in His Majesty's Army, and if I am able to point out to him that there is a substantial grievance under which a considerable number of the men are labouring, I am quite sure that in no way could he more usefully inaugurate his accession to office than by redressing the grievance and showing the men that he is keenly alive to their interests when they are assailed. When the new Army was being recruited a special appeal was made to the men who had been serving in the great War to re-enlist in the new Army. They were no doubt specially useful recruits. A great number of them were quite inclined to enlist for the short period of service, two, three, or four years, which they were asked to serve, but they asked, and properly asked, what provision was to be made for their wives, or their mothers, or their other dependants at home, and they were assured in the clearest possible language that the dependants' and separation allowance which had been paid during their service during the War would be continued during the period of enlistment. As a matter of fact, they were put in possession of a document which is described as a contract for special re-enlistment, and the contract especially states that the rates of separation and dependants' allowance, including special parents' allowance, now in force, will be continued in the case of men in respect of whom they were payable on the 1st December, 1918. That promise was no doubt redeemed in the first instance, but last year a Royal Warrant was issued, under which an increase of pay was given to the whole of the men in His Majesty's Forces. These men who had re-enlisted under the circumstances which I have described were then informed that the increased pay would not be available for them if they desired the separation or dependants' allowance to be continued. That is, they had to choose between the increased pay, which was insufficient, or dispense with the allowance.
I do suggest that the increased pay had proved necessary, because the old scale was insufficient. From that point of view, it was scarcely carrying out in the spirit, if in the letter, the contract entered into with the men. The matter was brought to the notice of dependants in a very harsh manner, which I can hardly imagine had the approval of the Secretary of State or of the Financial Secretary of the War Office. I have drawn the attention of the Financial Secretary to a great many cases personally, and I have to bear testimony to the fact that every case I have brought to his notice he has carefully investigated, and sent me a very courteous letter in reply. But in the first instance, the document Bent to the wife or the mother was a document which stated that, as the soldier had not exercised his "reserve rights," payments were to cease accordingly, and it went on: opportunity of communicating with the soldier if she so desired. It has no doubt created the greatest hardship in the homes of many of these people. I have a great number of letters, with which I do not purpose to trouble the Committee, but here is one from the mother of a soldier:
They are better off.
If the right hon. Gentleman says the men are better off in every instance, then that is not in conformity with the reply he gave to the House when a question was asked him by a hon. Gentleman in February last. He then said that they were better off in the majority of cases.
Nearly all.
The right hon. Gentleman says nearly all, but I take it that he does not contend that in every case they are better off. Apparently the quartermaster, without distinction, advised these men generally that this was the better course to take. This soldier says that this is a great grievance. He adds:
"It said on the blue form I got when I enlisted that the allowance was continued and that we would get the same rates of pay as before. It is like a contract that we take on with the Government. They can break their contract, and nothing is said about it. If we were to say we would go home and would not soldier any longer they would soon put us somewhere. They are all talking about it here."
The whole point is that it is evident that throughout India the men affected in this way feel they have a great grievance. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, if he cannot make any concession in this matter, at least to give an opportunity for the matter to be reopened, so that, when representations are made to these soldiers by their wives and mothers at home, in those cases where it is to the men's interest to come upon the alternative arrangement it shall be possible for them to do so. I yield to no hon. Member here in my desire for economy, but it has not come to this, that by a subterfuge the War Office is to deprive soldiers of a few coppers or shillings for the purpose of obtaining a surplus. We have not arrived at that stage yet, I hope. If there are a few cases, a dozen cases, in which the soldier is worse off, then there is a legitimate grievance amongst these men, and it ought to be remedied. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to say that these soldiers, having once been given the option, no matter whether they misunderstood the position or not, he will reconsider it and give a fresh opportunity to them to choose the alternative that is best for them. Only in that way will the men believe that they have been treated justly, or in accordance with the terms of the contract.
It will probably be for the convenience of the Committee if I now reply to the chief points raised in the Debate. I am very sorry to prevent anyone else who wishes to address the Committee from speaking, but let me remind those hon. Members who still desire to speak that we are now only asking for a Vote on Account, and that in a short time hon. Members will be able to deal with each of the points which they can now raise on the various heads of the Army Estimates, which will have to come before the Committee again when the full book of Estimates is published. Therefore perhaps I may be excused if I do not deal with some of the minor points raised since my right hon. Friend dealt with the financial points in the previous debate. I may say to the hon. Gentleman opposite, that no contract has been broken. Every soldier who joined and served on the terms of having separation allowance has had the option of the terms on which he was engaged; and he has another option to take other terms. The great bulk have accepted these because they were more favourable to them. But no man has been deprived of the rights which accrued to him on joining.
The thing was only put to him once, and often he did not understand it. I am asking that another opportunity should be given. I want it to be quite clear that the War Office has not broken faith with the soldier.
It has not done so.
It has.
If my hon. Friend can show me any case in which the contract has been broken, I will see that it is put right, because I entirely agree that it is absolutely essential that we should keep faith with those we ask to trust us. An hon. and gallant Member wished to know what education cost. Again, I would ask the hon. Member to wait till the book of Estimates is published. But I will tell him that generally the actual cost of education, apart from schools of instruction, Sandhurst, Woolwich, etc., in this Vote is £565,000, of which the Army Education Corps costs £304,000. When the whole book is published I would invite the hon. Gentleman to raise the question again in Committee so that there may be a proper Debate upon the subject which, I believe, is of considerable importance to the Army, and the country. The hon. Member for Spen Valley (Mr. Myers) again raised the question of the operations in Mesopotamia, and suggested that the British soldiers is being used to back up the oil interests. He made a similar suggestion on a previous occasion. My right hon. Friend (Mr. Churchill) gave him a forcible answer which I take no exception to, but entirely confirm; for if the hon. Gentleman prefers to believe the rumours in the Press of America or England in preference to the categorical statement of my right hon. Friend he is, of course, at liberty to do so. I prefer to take the official answer then given.
11.0 P.M.
There are really three points of importance and policy which have been raised to which, I think, I should address myself—that of the cavalry, the yeomanry, and the representation of the Territorial Army upon the Army Council. It was claimed by some hon. and gallant Members that the new arms of the Service rendered the cavalry even more necessary than before the War. It was also suggested that the proposals were an insult to the cavalry. I hope that the hon. and gallant gentleman who suggested the latter is alone in his belief. I endeavoured to make it quite plain that it was not out of any desire to flout the cavalry, nor to suggest that they were not a useful arm of the Service, that we made our proposal, but solely because in considering what arm could be reduced, it seemed safer and militarily right to reduce the cavalry rather than any other arm. My hon. and gallant Friend quoted with much effect the opinion of Marshal Foch. No one would say that he was not right in quoting the view of probably the greatest soldier in Europe. The hon. and gallant Member for the Wrekin Division also gave an interesting description of the opinions of other French Generals. They are great soldiers, and both the hon. and gallant Members were, in my opinion, justified in making the quotations, as representative of French opinion. But that makes me tell the Committee what the French themselves have done with regard to cavalry. They have reduced their cavalry a great deal more than we propose to do ours.
Is the right hon. Gentleman certain of that?
I have made specific and exact inquiry. I do not think it is right to state the exact figures, because I do not think they have been published in France itself. But it is true that they have reduced their cavalry, both actually and proportion- ately, to a larger extent than I am proposing to-night to reduce our cavalry.
They have 40,000 cavalry now.
I am not suggesting that they have not. What I say is that both actually and proportionately they are making a bigger reduction than we are. That is the important thing. They are reducing their cavalry more than twice as much as we are proposing to do.
Have the French the same responsibilities all over the world?
I am not dealing with their responsibilities. I am making a perfectly fair debating point raised by both hon. and gallant Members when they quoted the opinions of French generals in favour of cavalry. I think I am entitled to say that the French have, in fact, reduced their cavalry, both actually and proportionately, more than twice as much as we propose to reduce ours. Some hon. Members have spoken of this reduction of four regiments out of 31 as if we were abolishing cavalry altogether. It is nothing of the sort. It is a relatively minor reduction in the Army, which I am advised can quite safely be made. The hon. and gallant Member for Hexham (Captain Brown) made a suggestion that, instead of disbanding some regiments, we should cut down the establishment of all, reducing the numbers proportionately throughout. That proposal has, of course, some features of great attraction, as in case of need the strength could much more easily be increased, but, from a financial point of view, the effect is very, very different, as it would represent only a relatively small saving. It would mean cutting down probably double or treble the numbers, because hon. Members know that the overhead charges of the regiment would continue on the same scale whether there were 30 more or 30 less men attached to the regiment. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Melton (Sir C. Yate) suggested that an endeavour should be made to keep the tradition of these great regiments intact and to convert them if possible into some other arm of the service without breaking up their historical tradition. As I said when I first spoke, it is intended to endeavour to arrange for the transfer of the officers and men either into other cavalry regiments or into the Tank Corps, and I will have the other proposition of my hon. and gallant Friend examined to see whether it would be possible to keep the connection of the regiment as a whole and transfer it into some other arm of the service. I want to deal very shortly with the yeomanry. Again I think there is some misapprehension. The hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon suggested that, instead of keeping the ten senior yeomanry regiments, another plan should be adopted, and that the first ten who first came up to strength should be allowed to remain as cavalry regiments. That is a plan which might have been adopted a year ago, but it is quite impossible, now that the ten senior regiments have been told to recruit for the purpose of remaining as cavalry, that we should change that plan. It would be utterly unfair to the 30 yeomanry regiments who were told that they would not be able to go on as cavalry, and were invited to continue as artillery or machine gun companies, and who have done what they have been asked to do, and loyally and patriotically sacrificed their own inclinations in order to turn themselves into the arms which the country desires and needs. It would be utterly unfair to them if at the last moment they were told that the plan was to be changed, they were cut out. They would have changed at the request of those who were responsible for the new armies, and others who had not changed would be allowed to come in, while they would be shut out. It was suggested that it was difficult to be sure which were the ten senior regiments. That was really settled 30 or 40 years ago. The same question was then raised as to which were the senior regiments. An investigation took place, and the commanding officers of the day were invited to communicate their claims to seniority, which were investigated, and the order of seniority was definitely settled. So that it is not now open to doubt which are the ten senior regiments. I want to deal with the question raised by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Durham and also by the hon. Member for Hexham.
Before the right hon. Gentleman passes from the cavalry, may I ask whether it is not as well to let the House know that it is not a question of four regiments being reduced, but of 22—that is, 18 Indian cavalry regiments, and four British—that, in my opinion, ought to be considered.
The 18 Indian cavalry regiments, of course, are not within my jurisdiction, and I should be out of Order, and it would be improper for me to attempt to deal with the question here.
I want to deal with the question of the Northumberland Hussars. I hope that the Committee will understand that I recognise the immense services that the Northumberland Hussars have rendered to the country, and that nothing would give me, personally, greater pleasure than that they should have been able to be retained as cavalry, seeing that they have a very special claim by reason of their distinguished services, if that were possible without injustice to other regiments. My hon. and gallant Friend said that he did not wish to have a discussion as to the pledge that was given and that he did not want to open out a controversy, but, notwithstanding his desire, he very successfully did so, because he quoted from the "Times" what he considered to be a pledge which, if carried out in the terms of his quotation, would put the Northumberland Hussars, who are not one of the senior 10 regiments, in a special position, to the detriment not only of one of the 10 but of several intervening senior regiments. I am confronted with this position: I hold in my hand the official report and the statements made by my predecessor on the occasion to which my hon. and gallant Friend has referred. I must trouble the House to listen to about 10 lines which I will read: but, let us say, before the end of the year, that then the place of any of those ten shall be taken by another yeomanry regiment which has come up to strength, and that is a pledge I am prepared to fulfil, and which I have told my hon. and gallant Friend I will fulfil. But I must warn yeomanry regiments that it is not likely that any of these ten will not come up to strength. Already six are up to strength and the other four are at least 50 or 60 per cent. up to strength, and I have not any doubt that before the end of the year they will come up to strength. What am I to do? Am I to take the official report of the proceedings, or am I to take a newspaper report; and if I am to take a newspaper report, which newspaper report? I have seen two newspaper reports, and they differ; and I have the official report. I am going to found myself on the official report, and I do not think I have any alternative, because that official report was sent out to all the yeomanry regiments, and the ten senior yeomanry regiments and the others intervening between those and the regiment for which my hon. and gallant Friend speaks have received it and have been acting upon it. Am I to say that that report is all wrong, that some other report is to be accepted, and that their position, after they have been acting upon it and making promises to their men on the strength of it, is to be treated as of no value, and that some other yeomanry regiment is to come into the ten? I much regret that there should be any controversy on the matter, but I do not think I have any alternative but to take the course which I am taking and which I believe to be honest and fair, not only to one regiment, but to all the regiments affected.
I do not want to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but I must press for an answer before he leaves that point. We have here two versions of a pledge. I suggest that the simplest and fairest way, and, indeed, the only way, to settle the real meaning of the words used by the former Secretary of State for War, is to ask the right hon. Gentleman himself. I again ask the Secretary of State, will he ask the Colonial Secretary whether he intended the absolute and unconditional inclusion of that regiment at that date, and will he abide by what the Colonial Secretary says?
My hon. and gallant Friend asked me that before, and I thought I had explained fully and fairly my position in the matter. This is an official document, which is a pledge, not to one regiment, but as a matter of fact to 14 regiments. How can I do otherwise than accept and maintain the pledge that was given, not to one, but to the 14?
Is the answer "Yes" or "No"?
I should have thought that my answer was perfectly plain, and I am not going to be cross-examined any further. I have told the hon. and gallant Gentleman that I stand by this official pledge, and I do so. The other question with which I should deal is the repeated and widely-expressed opinion, which is obviously shared by many members of the Committee, that the Territorial Force should have a separate and professional representation upon the Army Council. I explained earlier in the day that, if I thought that that would be any advantage to the Territorial Force, I would certainly agree to it; but I believe that in the representation which the Territorial Force has in the Under-Secretary of State, Lord Peel—who was himself the commanding officer of a distinguished yeomanry regiment—it has the best possible representation upon the Army Council. I am willing, however, to consider the matter further, and will see whether it is possible and advisable that they should have a more direct representation. I do not want that to be considered as a definite acceptance, because the Army Council already consists of 11 members, and that number, in my judgment, is already too large. I do not want to add to it. It is true that there are various ways of reducing numbers, but they have rights as well as the newcomers. I cannot make any further statement until I have further looked into the matter, because after all people are not on the Army Council except for a very good reason, and to take people off the Army Council may be to destroy good work which cannot otherwise be done. I have dealt with the three larger points of policy, and I am going to ask the Committee to give me this Vote now without prejudice to a detailed examination of any points which are still outstanding when the Vote comes up under the various heads upon the full Vote which will shortly be presented.
The right hon. Gentleman says without prejudice. In the Vote we are coming to are we to assume that the question of the enormous reduction of mobile forces both in this country and abroad is to be assumed as a settled question? If he tells us that is one of the questions which will remain open for further examination I will vote for it, but if he says, "Now you have to decide definitely that this great reduction of mobile forces is going to be accomplished," I shall unhesitatingly vote against the right hon. Gentleman.
Do not let us have any misunderstanding. I am asking for a Vote on Account. I am not asking the Committee to approve Head 1, 2 or 3 or any specific head. It is without prejudice therefore to the Committee's right at any subsequent time when the Army Estimates are before
the Committee again to deal with the various heads, but, of course, if the Committee passes, as I shall ask it to pass, the Vote on Account, it cannot recall the Vote on Account. If it passes, as I shall ask it to pass, Vote A, it cannot recall Vote A. So to that extent it is obviously deciding now those two questions. I hope I have made it clear, because I should not like the Committee to be under any misapprehension. They are open to discuss all the items, but not, of course, the numbers.
rose —
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question, "That the Question be now put," put, and agreed to
Question put accordingly, "That a sum not exceeding £40,000,000 be granted for the said Service."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 75; Noes, 168.
Division No. 32.] AYES. [11.26 p.m. Acland, Rt. Hon. F. D. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Grundy, T. W. Raffan, Peter Wilson Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Rendall, Athelstan Birchall, Major J. Dearman Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-spring) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hancock, John George Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Bromfield, William Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Royce, William Stapleton Brown, Captain D. C. Hartshorn, Vernon Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hayday, Arthur Sexton, James Cairns, John Hayward, Major Evan Sitch, Charles H. Cape, Thomas Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes) Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Hirst, G. H. Swan, J. E. Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill Hogge, James Myles Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Collins, Sir G. P. (Greenock) Holmes, J. Stanley Townshend, Sir Charles V. F. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Irving, Dan Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) John, William (Rhondda, West) Wedgwood, Colonel J. C. Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Lawson, John J. White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lunn, William Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Wilson, James (Dudley) Entwistle, Major C. F. MacVeagh, Jeremiah Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbrdge) Finney, Samuel Mills, John Edmund Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Galbraith, Samuel Morgan, Major D. Watts Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Gillis, William Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Glanville, Harold James Myers, Thomas Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Newbould, Alfred Ernest TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Mr. G. Thorne and Mr. Neil Maclean.
NOES. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Cope, Major Wm. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Breese, Major Charles E. Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Archdale, Rt. Hon. Edward Mervyn Briggs, Harold Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Armitage, Robert Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Doyle, N. Grattan Atkey, A. R. Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Edgar, Clifford B. Austin, Sir Herbert Carew, Charles Robert S. Edge, Captain William Baird, Sir John Lawrence Carr, W. Theodore Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Casey, T. W. Evans, Ernest Balfour, George (Hampstead) Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Barlow, Sir Montague Chadwick, Sir Robert Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Barnett, Major R. W. Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Fildes, Henry Barnston, Major Harry Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Ford, Patrick Johnston Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Clough, Robert Forrest, Walter Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell Coats, Sir Stuart Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Fraser, Major Sir Keith Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge) Lindsay, William Arthur Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Lloyd, George Butler Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Lort-Williams, J. Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Glanville, Harold James Loseby, Captain C. E. Simm, M. T. Glyn, Major Ralph M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Goff, Sir R. Park Macleod, J. Mackintosh Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Manville, Edward Stanton, Charles B. Gritten, W. G. Howard Marks, Sir George Croydon Steel, Major S. Strang Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Mason, Robert Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Hallwood, Augustine Meysey-Thomson, Lieut.-Col. E. C. Strauss, Edward Anthony Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Mitchell, William Lane Sturrock, J. Leng Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Sutherland, Sir William Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Taylor, J. Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham) Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Murchison, C. K. Tryon, Major George Clement Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh) Turton, E. R. Hills, Major John Waller Murray, Major William (Dumfries) Vickers, Douglas Hinds, John Neal, Arthur Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Waring, Major Walter Hood, Joseph Oman, Sir Charles William C. Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L. White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Hopkins, John W. W. Parker, James Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Hurd, Percy A. Peel, Col. Hr. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claus Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Perkins, Walter Frank Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Jodrell, Neville Paul Purchase, H. G. Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Johnson, Sir Stanley Rae, H. Norman Wise, Frederick Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Raeburn, Sir William H. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Lianelly) Randies, Sir John S. Woolcock, William James U. Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Renwick, George Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Kidd, James Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) King, Captain Henry Douglas Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Larmor, Sir Joseph Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Lord E. Talbot and Captain Guest. Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Army (Excess), 1919–20
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £6,835,607 1s. 5d., be granted to His Majesty, to make good Excesses of Army Expenditure beyond the Grants, for the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1920."
I think that we had better have a short explanation of this matter.
The Committee is in possession of the figures in this matter. They have been investigated by the Public Accounts Committee, and they have reported that they see no objection to this Excess Vote. The causes of the Vote are somewhat intermingled. It is due to an excess on both sides of the account, an excess of expenditure and an excess of receipts. It arises chiefly in connection with the pay bill. One of the items is caused by the payment to soldiers in settlement of their accounts at the time of demobilisation being charged, owing to pressure of work, in the Post Office, and the fact that the payments were not included in the accounts for the year to which they properly belonged and that they fell into the sub- sequent year. That is the reason for that particular excess. Another item of £5,000,000 was an underestimate of men's balances. The estimate was £7,000,000, but as a matter of fact the men had to their credit £12,000,000, and that had to be paid. There was £2,500,000 for arrears of pay of the East African troops. This arose on the pay account of the King's African Rifles, which had fallen into great confusion owing to the sudden raising of the regiment to a strength of over twenty battalions. The War Office were not strictly responsible for these accounts, but had to bear the charge when the matter was settled. Another £2,000,000 to £2,500,000 was in connection with Chinese labour, which arose through the payment of the Chinese labourers being delayed.
Question put, and agreed to.
Civil Services and Revenue Departments Supplementary Estimates, 1920–21
Unclassified Services
Ministry of Munitions
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £100, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Munitions."
The Committee will expect a word of explanation of this Vote. It involves no new money; we are not asking for any new expenditure, but only to make use of our receipts, which in the course of the year have much more than balanced the increase on the debit side. This has nothing to do with any current expenditure. It relates entirely to the clearing up of past transactions. The active current work of the Ministry is at present confined entirely to the realisation of surplus stores under the Disposal Board. This Vote has nothing to do with disposals. The sum asked for relates entirely to liquidation and the settling of past transactions. These are of two kinds. First, contracts placed during the War. We are very nearly through that. There are also certain adjustments as between other Government Departments and ourselves. Up to the middle of last summer the Ministry of Munitions were still acting as a Supply Department for the War Office and other Departments and it is with reference to those transactions that an extra sum now becomes necessary. We acted for the War Office up to the beginning of June and for the Ministry of Health up to the beginning of July, and when the revised Estimate was presented early in August the Accountant-General did not feel sanguine that a full adjustment of accounts could be rendered in time to have all the transactions settled in the course of the financial year. As a matter of fact that has taken place and now all the accounts between the Ministry and other Government Departments have been fully adjusted. We are asking for £2,000,000 more, but we shall receive over £5,000,000 more. Therefore, at the end of this financial year, we shall be at least £3,000,000 better off than we thought when the Estimate was presented in August last. The Estimate then was for £19,000,000, but as a matter of fact something less than £16,000,000 will actually be spent. We have placed orders for other Government Departments and received receipts from other Government Departments, but of course we only ask for leave to appropriate receipts to the extent that they are required by the extra items on the debit side. The rest is surrendered to the Exchequer. I should just add that apart from these sums that are brought to account there are all the Disposal Board receipts, but they are not brought to account for the purpose of appropriation at all; they are paid directly to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and they do not affect the Vote.
As showing the progress of liquidation, with which this Supplementary Estimate is alone concerned, I should say that at the beginning of the last financial year there was still a staff of 1,700 persons employed on liquidation. At the end of this financial year we shall hand over to our successors in title to deal with the remainder a staff of some 71 only. That shows that the progress has been extremely quick during this year. This is a token Vote, involving no new departure, and all I have to do is to ask the Committee to allow us to make use of the appropriations we have received.
This is a Ministry which was supposed to come to an end last July.
No.
Yes, certainly. The original Estimate of last March had to be withdrawn, and a revised Estimate had to be submitted, and the undertaking was that the Ministry was going to be wound up in July. It is still flourishing, and I predict that it will be flourishing next July. As a protest against its continued and ineffective existence, I shall vote against this Supplementary Estimate.
I should like to ask my hon. Friend if it is really necessary to proceed with this Vote to-night. I have already indicated to my hon. Friend that there are certain matters of really the highest importance which I think can be discussed on this Vote, and which it would be very undesirable to discuss at this time of night, and if my hon. Friend could possibly meet me on this point I should be sincerely grateful. Possibly I might indicate to him the point I shall endeavour to make on this Vote, of which I have warned him. I note that we are discussing the salaries of, amongst others, officials concerned with the liquidation of Ministry production, and I presume that that will include the Accounts Liquidation Committee. I am of opinion—
That would not arise on this Vote, which is simply to authorise the taking into account of certain Appropriations-in-Aid. I think perhaps the hon. Member has in mind the question which he introduced to the House a short time ago, but that matter, having been remitted to a Committee by Resolution of the House, is sub judice and cannot be gone into on the present occasion.
On a point of Order. You could have relied upon it, Sir, that I should not have discussed, but should carefully have refrained from discussing, any matter that was sub judice. If I may respectfully say so, I want to discuss the salaries of officials of the Accounts Liquidation Committee, quite apart, of course, from any matter that is sub judice
Those salaries are not contained in this Vote. They were in the Vote which was passed in the main Estimates of the year. Therefore this question would not arise on the present Vote.
I took the trouble to see the hon. Gentleman in charge of these Estimates, and also yourself, in the endeavour to find out exactly where we should be when we came before the Committee. The hon. Member rightly said that he was dealing with the progress of liquidation, and I do not understand how any matters which deal with the liquidation of the assets of the Ministry of Munitions can be excluded from the Debate which can take place on this Vote. He informed us that the Ministry was acting for the War Office up to the end of June last. If that is so, clearly all the work which he did in the liquidation of assets for the War Office up to that time must be discussable on this Vote, it seems to me.
That is a little too indefinite for me to answer. I am sorry if I have misled the hon. Member, but so many Members come to me in the course of every day asking for assistance that I cannot carry everything in my mind at one time. Will the hon. Gentleman indicate what point he wishes to raise?
The point I want to raise is that of the general extravagance of the Disposal Board in this work, and I want to show that it has not been doing its work properly, has been spending much more than it need, and has not got in the money it might have done. In practically every county in England there are buildings, and inside those buildings machinery which for two or three years has been lying dormant. All sorts of business men have been trying to buy these places and machinery from the Disposal Board, which during all the time, by incapacity, by incompetency, and delay, have been keeping these things back. I have overwhelming evidence of that in county after county, and strong evidence in my own county, and it seems on that particular matter I am entitled to give illustrations from the point of view which I wish to make.
I am sorry to have misled the hon. Member on that matter. That is a very good point to raise, no doubt, but it really does not come in on this Vote, which is merely bringing into account the Appropriations-in-Aid, in order to allow the accounts to be made up for the current financial year. The hon. Member would be quite right in addressing himself to that on the Vote on account on the Consolidated Fund Bill, which we shall have in a few days.
I think the hon. Member himself has covered practically all the points I wish to speak about and many more. He said he had been acting for the War Office up to the end of June in regard to the progress of the liquidation of assets.
I did not say we were liquidating the assets, but liquidating the liabilities, which is a very different matter.
As to what are assets and what are liabilities in the Ministry of Munitions, it is very hard to tell. You, Sir, have put me in a very great difficulty by your ruling, curtailing any Debate which would be in order. I have no right to ask you what particular subject matter will be in order, but I think I had better proceed until you stop me.
I think the hon. Member will see the point that the general policy of the Ministry with reference to speed or otherwise does not arise in this case. I am still not quite cognisant of his exact point, but if he wants to ask a question about some particular case, and whether that has been dealt with or not, I think that would be permissible.
Certainly, I am quite willing to put it in the form of a question and address it to the hon. Member in charge of the Vote. Is the hon. Member aware that at Yate, in the county of Gloucester, there is a large aerodrome, which is very important, and also an aircraft repair section and a large slab factory? These three buildings were put up during the War; they cover an area of 50 acres; when the War came to an end they were no longer needed for the purpose for which they were erected. Thereupon, it seems to me, the Ministry of Munitions or the Disposal Board ought to have determined to have got rid of all the machinery there, and have sold the buildings to persons who might have carried on business in them. Why has that not been done? The rural district council in that neighbourhood communicated with the hon. Gentleman and with the Ministry, and Messrs. Douglas and Company offered £70,000 for one-half of the aerodrome. Aeronoids made an offer, and another firm also made an offer for the large slab factory. In spite of these offers made, in some cases, more than 12 months ago, the hon. Gentleman has been unable to find, amongst his 10,000 staff, any competent people to carry the business through. Why is it, in spite of these offers and lengthy negotiations, that nothing has been done? Messrs. Douglas, who are the great motor cycle manufacturers, have stated plainly that they would be employing 1,000 or 2,000 men now upon these premises, while another firm have actually stated, in a letter to the Ministry, that because they cannot get part of these buildings they have gone to France to obtain premises there. The great slab factory was erected by the Ministry during the War to make building materials and requisites. Despite the fact that when the War ended this building was completely equipped for the production of every necessity for house building, and despite the requests of the rural district council, nothing has been done. This great building, with all its machinery and plant ready for turning out the large mass of material required for building, has been empty for the last two years. Further, there are 50 or 60 large huts near by, for housing the men employed.
Here you have 60 or 70 acres of land, covered with valuable buildings, full of machinery, and that machinery rotting. There is unemployment in the neighbourhood, but this could have been got rid of if the Ministry had only awakened up and got this business through in a workmanlike fashion. Why does the hon. Gentleman come here with £100, when he might have got hundreds of thousands of pounds if the Ministry had done this job properly some time ago? I hope he will give me an answer, for not only does my constituency wish for an answer with regard to this particular case, but in practically every county through England similar questions might be asked, and in Scotland also, where it is worse than in England. The hon. Gentleman, instead of making perfunctory speeches, and saying that nothing on earth rests on this Vote, should have been much more candid—and he is quite capable of being candid if he likes—and have taken the committee into his confidence and told them what has been done. What is the hon. Gentleman doing now? He desires to postpone the discussion until some future time when the Ministry may have disappeared, and he, as Minister, may also have disappeared. This may be our last chance, and that is why I am taking this opportunity of cross-examining the hon. Gentleman. The least he can do is to make some small defence before the country of the conduct of the Disposal Board, and to give us some idea whether or not it has this staff of 10,000, and what they are doing; why they do not liquidate these assets and produce the money for the Government? We have been told that a very large amount is to be produced in reduction of taxation. My point is—and that is why I am speaking—that you might have raised infinitely larger sums, and not only to reduce taxation; but if it had been raised earlier it would have done a good deal to stem unemployment. You have these buildings useless which might have been put to use. [HON. MEMBERS: "Agreed!"] Hon. Members may cry "Agreed," but if they had a little more knowledge of the scandals that are to be seen in every countryside in this country they would not shout "Agreed," but "Shame," and not "Shame" as against me, but because there is not more information.
I am a genuine seeker after truth—
Hear, hear!
And I hope the hon. Gentleman will not respond to the invitation to tell us what the Disposal Board has been, or will be doing, for that will keep some of us longer than we are prepared to stay. I have no doubt the Disposal Board has done very well indeed. What I do want to ask, as one not unfamiliar with accounts, is: What exactly is the meaning of this Supplementary Estimate, so that I may give my vote with intelligence as well as good-will? I find apparently that a more rapid liquidation of the Ministry of Munitions results in an increased expenditure, including capital expenditure, of £2,000,000. The Ministry, we are told, will have 1,700 staff at present engaged in the process of liquidation—
On 1st April last.
Oh, and the result of more rapid liquidation is an expenditure of £2,000,000—
And a gain of £5,000,000!
I cannot help suspecting that this increased capital expenditure is being used by my hon. Friend for the purpose of postponing the liquidation of his Ministry—on the ground that it is necessary to reduce expenditure in the next Budget. I do wish my hon. Friend would explain what is the increased expenditure. What is this capital expenditure? Is it more staff, or buildings, or travelling, or material? I shall be glad if my hon. Friend can explain these small points and tell us what the accounts mean, because at the moment they are quite unintelligible.
12 M.
My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary spoke a moment ago of the liquidation of liabilities. Would it not be in order now to discuss the method of the liquidation of those liabilities?
I may remind hon. Members that to beginners the Estimates are sometimes misleading in the way in which they are presented, because it is necessary when you have a Supplemen-Vote to repeat the heading as it appeared in the original Estimate, although the Supplementary Vote may only refer to one of the matters covered by that heading. That is a system of account keeping which the hon. Member must bear in mind.
Would discussion on the liabilities of the Department to certain firms for compensation for losses they have suffered be in order?
No.
I would suggest to my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol (Mr. Inskip) that if he requires a reply to his question he should join the Psychical Research Society and endeavour to get into touch with the late Mr. Gladstone. Although there may be good reason for the system adopted it certainly is very confusing. I can only explain to the Council how it is that while we want more money we can get that money by making use of certain receipts. There are a number of other items included in the Vote to which this is a Supplementary Estimate; for instance, there is the Subhead J, Liquidation of Ministry Production and Capital Expenditure, and running expenses of outside establishments. All that is part of the original Vote, but the first item alone—"Liquidation of Ministry Production" is concerned with the Supplementary Vote before the Council, and that is merely a matter of adjustment as between different Departments. It has nothing to do with running outside establishments which we have got rid of altogether. It is an inter-Departmental transaction and nothing else. With regard to the position of my hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Rendall) I was not prepared to make a statement on this question on behalf of the Disposal Board as I was convinced it would be entirely out of order. I can, if it is in order, give an extempore answer because I happen to know something of the transactions to which my hon. Friend has referred. I really doubt whether I ought to, because it has nothing to do with the Disposal Board receipts or expenditure.
That makes it quite clear. That was my impression, and now the Minister confirms me in it. I was only waiting to see if the matter came within one of the items or sub-heads. Apparently it does not.
As the Ministry has been attacked, I think the hon. Gentleman should be allowed to reply.
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 124; Noes, 37.
Division No. 33.] AYES. [12.5 a.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Neal, Arthur Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James Gange, E. Stanley Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Parker, James Atkey, A. R. Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Austin, Sir Herbert Glyn, Major Ralph Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Baird, Sir John Lawrence Goff, Sir R. Park Purchase, H. G. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Raeburn, Sir William H. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Hailwood, Augustine Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Barlow, Sir Montague Hannon Patrick Joseph Henry Roberts, Samuel (Hereford) Barnett, Major R. W. Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Barnston, Major Harry Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Milder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Roundell, Colonel R. F. Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell Hills, Major John Waller Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Hood, Joseph Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Breese, Major Charles E. Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Shortt, Ht. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Briggs, Harold Hopkins, John W. W. Simm, M. T. Brown, Captain D. C. Hurd, Percy A. Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Stanton, Charles B. Carr, W. Theodore Jodrell, Neville Paul Steel, Major S. Strang Casey, T. W. Johnson, Sir Stanley Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Strauss, Edward Anthony Chadwick, Sir Robert Kidd, James Sturrock, J. Leng Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) King, Captain Henry Douglas Sutherland, Sir William Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill Larmor, Sir Joseph Vickers, Douglas Clough, Robert Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Collins, Sir G. P. (Greenock) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Waring, Major Walter Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Cope, Major Wm. Lindsay, William Arthur Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Lloyd, George Butler White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Lort-Williams, J. Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Doyle, N. Grattan M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Edgar, Clifford B. Macleod, J. Mackintosh Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Edge, Captain William Manville, Edward Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Mason, Robert Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Evans, Ernest Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Wise, Frederick Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Woolcock, William James U. Flides, Henry Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Ford, Patrick Johnston Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Forrest, Walter Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Murray, Major William (Dumfries) Lord E. Talbot and Captain Guest. Fraser, Major Sir Keith
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Hancock, John George Rattan, Peter Wilson Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C (Kent) Rendall, Atheistan Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hartshorn, Vernon Royce, William Stapleton Bromfield, William Hayday, Arthur Sexton, James Brown, J. (S. Ayrshire) Hinds, John Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Cape, Thomas Hirst, G. H. Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Jones, Henry Haydn, (Merioneth) Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) Loseby, Captain C. E. Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Lunn, William Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Entwistle, Major C. F. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) MacVeagh, Jeremiah TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Gritten, W. G. Howard Morgan, Major D. Watts Mr. George Thorne and Mr. Charles Edwards. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.
Supply [14th March]
Civil Services and Revenue Departments Supplementary Estimates, 1920–21
Revenue Departments
Post Office
Resolution reported,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £2,672,500, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Post Office, including Telegraphs and Telephones."
Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I wish to refer to the last item in the Supply Vote of £570,000 to the Direct United States Cable Company. I want to know whether this Vote includes, or whether provision is made in the purchase, for the superannuation of the staff taken over by the Post Office? A number of men employed by the Direct United States Cable Company were in the employment of the company for periods varying from 20 to 30 years. Some of these men are now superannuated; other men who have been employed a considerable time have had their services dispensed with. They do not know where they stand under their agreements with the company. They were entitled to superannuation benefit, but up to the present they have had no intimation either from the Post Office, the Direct United States Cable Company, or the American Western Union Company, who leased the cable from the Direct United States Cable Company, as to their position regarding superannuation benefit. If the Post Office have taken over the Direct Cable Company as a going concern, I take it that they have taken over its liabilities to its employés. If they have not, I shall feel compelled to divide against this Motion. The Post Office is a great national concern, and is worked on business lines; and, that being so, I take it that they knew the liabilities they took over. If they did not take over the liability of meeting the responsibility to the present staff and some of the former staff of the Direct United States Cable Company, I suppose we ought to have another Supplementary Estimate to enable the Post Office to meet their liability. To give a case in point, one man whose services were dispensed with last October received a pension of £78, although he was in a responsible position and had been in the company's service for 30 or 35 years. I assume that the Government are going to take over the responsibility for super-
annuation payments to those who are entitled to them, and a pension of £78 a year in the case of a man who had held a responsible position for many years, and had 30 or 35 years' service, is absolutely inadequate. I ask for an assurance that these men who are entitled to such benefit will be dealt with in the same way as they would have been had the company continued its separate existence.
I made a full statement yesterday with regard to the cables, and will not, therefore, deal with that subject to-night. With regard to the point raised by the hon. Member (Mr. T. Wilson), that is one of the things which, in dealing with questions of this kind, are always taken into account. As rule, there are two ways of dealing with it—either separately or by taking it into account in the purchase price. I have been given no notice that this point was going to be raised, and therefore cannot give any details, but, as far as I know, it is taken into account in the price which is mentioned here.
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman say whether the agreement does include the responsibility of the company to its servants?
As I have just said, I believe that in these cases the question of the liability is taken into account in the purchase price. It is plain that the question must be dealt with.
Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
The House divided: Ayes, 99; Noes, 23.
Division No. 34.] AYES. [12.20 a.m. Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James Clough, Robert Green, Joseph f. (Leicester, W.) Atkey, A. R. Collins, Col. Sir G. P. (Greenock) Hailwood, Augustine Austin, Sir Herbert Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Harmon, Patrick Joseph Henry Baird, Sir John Lawrence Cope, Major Wm. Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Barlow, Sir Montague Davidson, J. C. C. (Kernel Hempstead) Hinds, John Barnett, Major R. W. Doyle, N. Grattan Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Barnston, Major Harry Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Hood, Joseph Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Evans, Ernest Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Hopkins, John W. W Breese, Major Charles E. Fildes, Henry Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Briggs, Harold Forrest, Walter James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Brown, Captain D. C. Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Jones, Henry Haydn, (Merioneth) Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Carr, W. Theodore Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. King, Captain Henry Douglas Casey, T. W. Gange, E. Stanley Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Chadwick, Sir Robert Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Lindsay, William Arthur Chamberlain, N. (Birn., Ladywood) Goff, Sir R. Park Lort-Williams, J. Loseby, Captain C. E. Raeburn, Sip William H. Vickers, Douglas M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Macleod, J. Mackintosh Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Waring, Major Walter Manville, Edward Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Mason, Robert Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh) Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Murray, Major William (Dumfries) Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Nall, Major Joseph Simm, M. T. Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Neal, Arthur Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Stanton, Charles B. Parker, James Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Sturrock, J. Leng Lord Edmund Talbot and Captain Guest. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Sutherland, Sir William Purchase, H. G.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Entwistle, Major C. F. Royce, William Stapleton Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Sexton, James Bromfield, William Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Brown, James (S. Ayrshire) Hartshorn, Vernon Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Cape, Thomas Hayday, Arthur Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Hirst, G. H. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Morgan, Major D. Watts TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Raffan, Peter Wilson Mr. Tyson Wilson and Mr. Neil Maclean.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Twenty-Eight Minutes after Twelve o'clock.