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Commons Chamber

Volume 139: debated on Tuesday 22 March 1921

House of Commons

Tuesday, March 22, 1921

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

Harrogate Gas Bill.

Ordered, That the Bill be committed.

Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

South Metropolitan Gas Bill [ Lords ].

Corporation of London (Bridge) Bill [ Lords ].

Ordered, That the Bills be read a Second Time.

Provisional Order Bills (No Standing Orders applicable),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:

Pilotage Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill.

Ordered, That the Bill be read a Second time To-morrow.

Chatham and District Light Railways Company Bill [ Lords ],

Read a Second time, and committed.

New Writ

For the County of Somerset (Taunton Division), in the room of Lieut.-Colonel DENNIS FORTESCUE BOLES, C.B.E. (Chiltern Hundreds).—[ Lord Edmund Talbot.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Alcoholism (Washington Congress)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet received the Report of the proceedings of the Fifteenth International Congress against Alcoholism, which Sir Auckland Geddes attended, at Washington; and, if so, will he have the Report printed and circulated?

The Report is now on the way, but has not yet reached me. As soon as it is received, the question of circulating it will be considered.

Russia

Propaganda

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the consignments of false "Pravdas" despatched by the Director of Intelligence to be forwarded by the Admiralty were addressed to or through the British Vice-Consul at Helsingfors, or by name to Mr. Le May, Mr. Lenstrend, or Mr. Boyce holding this position; was His Majesty's Foreign Office aware of this work being carried out by gentlemen holding the position and commission of His Majesty's Vice-Consul; and was the Finnish Government informed of the despatch of these forged documents through His Majesty's representatives at Helsingfors?

So far as I am aware, no copies of a forged edition of the "Pravda" have been received by any official of His Majesty's Consulate at Helsingfors. Last October a parcel addressed to the British Commissioner at Riga was received by him, and, on being opened, it was found to contain some hundred copies of a faked edition of this newspaper. These copies were kept at Riga under lock and key by the British Commissioner.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Home Secretary admitted that this was sent to Russia, and was His Majesty's Foreign Office consulted as to this use being made of His Majesty's agents?

I went into that matter myself, and it is not the custom of the Foreign Office to censor parcels that go in the Foreign Office bags to His Majesty's representatives. I should add that there is no question of any of His Majesty's Consular officers being in any way implicated.

asked the Home Secretary whether, in accordance with the provisions of the preamble of the Russian trade agreement, instructions have been issued to the Director of Intelligence that he and his staff shall refrain from giving any assistance or encouragement, whether discreet or indiscreet, to persons engaged in propaganda, direct or indirect, against the institutions of the Russian Soviet Republic?

All necessary instructions have been given to Government Departments and others concerned in accordance with the preamble to the agreement.

Newspaper Reports

asked the Home Secretary whether he can indicate the source of recent misleading reports of the downfall of the Russian Government?

Trade Agreement

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the publication by the Government of facts relating to the scope and purpose of Bolshevik propaganda in Afghanistan and India, he will consider the desirability of suspending the putting into operation of the Trade Agreement with the Soviet Government until he is able to satisfy this House that such propaganda has been discontinued?

Under the Preamble to the Trade Agreement, the Soviet Government expressly undertakes to refrain from propaganda against British interests in India and Afghanistan, and under Clause 13 of the Agreement, all infringement of this condition entitles; His Majesty's Government to determine the Agreement if any default be not remedied. The letter handed to M. Krasin states the action required to be taken by the Soviet Government as an essential corollary of the Trade Agreement.

Were the Government satisfied that the propaganda had in fact ceased when they signed the Agreement?

We were satisfied that the Soviet Government pledged itself to cease propaganda.

Supposing that this Agreement as to India is not kept, what Government Department will take cognisance of it?

Was not the action against Afghanistan, and so on, taken prior to the signing of the Agreement, and is not our best defence against further action of that sort the opening up of satisfactory and solid relations with Russia?

I would sooner state the arguments in favour of the Agreement, rather than have them stated for me by my hon. and gallant Friend.

Is it not a fact that M. Lenin has declared his inability to control his agents in the Middle East and Afghanistan?

If my hon. and gallant Friend will refer to the agreement, which has been published, he will see.

May we take it as certain that the agreement will be cancelled if proof be forthcoming that they have in any way broken their promise with regard to propaganda?

It was an essential condition of the signing of the agreement that any hostile action, if any had been taken, should cease.

Questions

Egypt

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the fact that the Report of the Milner Mission to Egypt emphatically urges that the Treaty should not be allowed to come into force unless it had been approved by a genuinely representative Egyptian assembly, and that it was rather for the Egyptians than for us to say what kind of assembly would be in the truest sense representative, His Majesty's Government proposes to arrange for the appointment of Egyptian delegates without regard to the national delegation admitted by Lord Milner to speak in the name of the nation?

It is not for His Majesty's Government to arrange for the appointment of Egyptian delegates. This is for the Egyptians themselves to settle.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of protests from Egyptian representative bodies against the proposed method of appointing a delegation to enter into formal negotiations with the British Government on the ground that a delegation so appointed would be unrepresentative of, and would not have the confidence of the Egyptian people, His Majesty's Government will give an assurance that the Egyptian people shall settle their own method of selecting representatives?

I have already given such an assurance in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Spoor) on the 14th instant.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether free return railway tickets are being issued to Egyptians by the Government in Egypt in order to induce them to thank the Sultan for his actions in regard to the proposed official negotiations with His Majesty's Government; and whether he is aware that pressure is being put upon Egyptians to force them to thank the Sultan?

I have no information confirming the suggestions contained in the hon. Member's question.

Peace Treaties

Austria (Surrender of Cattle)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Separations Commission has recently presented a demand to the Austrian Government for the surrender of 6,000 cattle; whether the British representative refused to sign the demand; and whether, in view of the large sums spent by the Government in the purchase of milk for the children of Austria, representations are being made to the Powers who have signed this demand?

The question of the delivery of cattle, in accordance with Annex 4 of Part 8 of the Treaty of St. Germain, was brought up before the Vienna Section of the Reparation Commission on 4th March. The Section were in favour of presenting to the Austrian Government a demand for delivery, the British representative alone dissenting. The matter will have to be referred for final decision to the Reparation Commission in Paris, and in view of the fact that the Allied and Associated Governments have been discussing the desirability of postponing all liens on Austrian State assets, it is probable that the decision of the Vienna Section will be withdrawn.

British Army

Cadet Force

asked the Secretary of State for War what is the present strength of the cadet force, how many of these are under the Territorial force associations, and how many under other organisations; and what steps are being taken to perfect the organisation and administration of the cadet force and to encourage enlistment in it?

The present strength of the cadet force is 120,000. All of the cadets are under the administration of the County Territorial Force Associations, about 45 per cent. of them being raised by large voluntary organisations. The reorganisation of the cadet force on a county basis is proceeding and new regulations are being framed. County commandants and county cadet staffs are being appointed as well as civil committees to aid the movement. A grant for each qualified cadet of 1s. to the Territorial Force Association and 1s. to the officer commanding has recently been authorised; and issues of drill pattern and miniature rifles, camp equipment (on loan), clothing (at cheap rates), etc., are made. Training facilities have been improved and five national competitions for miniature rifle shooting, boxing, games, physical drill and general efficiency, have been arranged for 1921.

Have these arrangements been lately brought into force, and have they done anything to increase the number of cadets?

Closed Road, Netherton

asked the Secretary of State for War when it is proposed to hand over the road, Park Lane, Netherton, which was closed for public use by the military authorities during the War; whether he is aware that a letter was forwarded to the War Office on the 7th January regarding this matter and that no reply has been received; and whether, in view of the inconvenience caused by the continued closing of this road to the public during certain hours, he will give this matter his favourable consideration?

It is hoped that the road referred to will be re-opened on 1st April next.

Acting and Temporary Rank

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will define the exact difference between acting and temporary rank; and why regimental officers who have all the hard and unpleasant work to do in war should only be acting while the staff are usually temporary?

Temporary rank is held by an officer filling a vacancy on a war establishment, while an officer holding acting rank is not filling a vacancy, but is acting in the absence of the officer holding the appointment. Temporary rank could not be granted without reference to the War Office, but acting rank, which was given more freely, could be granted by General Officers Commanding in the field. In the case of the regimental officers, as they were more exposed to the risks of war, the higher acting rank was conferred immediately without the formality and delay which preceded the grant of temporary rank.

Is it a fact that the rank of temporary officer entitles them to take a pension from the time acting rank is granted?

Majors

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction in the Army at the different treatment of majors holding command of regiments; whether those majors appointed prior to April, 1919, become acting lieutenant-colonels, with rank and pay as such, but those appointed afterwards remain majors and only receive major's pay, apart from the command pay which both obtain; whether this means a loss of £250 per annum; and whether, in view of the fact that both sets of officers do precisely the same work and have the same responsibilities, he can place both on an equal footing?

April, 1919, marks the reversion from rules specially set up for War conditions to those that apply in peace. The exigencies of War rendered it necessary to give the rank of lieutenant-colonel to the officer who was actually in command, whatever his substantive rank. In peace, during the absence of the lieutenant- colonel for any reason, the next senior officer assumes command without any enhancement of rank.

Remount Department

asked the Secretary of State for War why it is necessary to retain in the remount service 154 officers as compared with 19 officers in January, 1914; could the Army veterinary service carry out all the duties now allocated to the Remount Department; would the saving thus effected enable him to retain the four cavalry regiments he proposes to disband; and will he state the total annual cost of the Remount Department, including the administrative and clerical staffs, and all charges for officers and other accommodation in January, 1914, and in January, 1921?

The answer is a very long one, and I hope the hon. and gallant Gentleman will allow me to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consult with his advisers as to the desirability of getting rid of the boarding-out system altogether as being expensive and useless, thus saving the taxpayer?

I am not quite sure that immediately arises out of my answer, which has not yet been circulated.

The following is the answer prepared: The dates quoted by my hon. and gallant Friend, namely, January, 1914, and January, 1921, are apt to be misleading, because in April, 1914, 85 district remount officers were added to the establishment for the purpose of classifying the civilian horse population of the country for military purposes. This work had, up to that time, been done by adjutants of the Territorial Force, but this system was abandoned because these officers had not the necessary special knowledge, and the work took them away from their proper duties.

April, 1914

Serving officers

10

Retired officers

113

Other ranks

75

Civilians

164

April, 1921

Serving officers

8

Retired officers

118

Other ranks

67

Civilians

700

These figures will, however, be reduced during the years by the following:—20 retired officers and 67 other ranks, whose places will be taken by the civilians enumerated. This shows that the actual establishment of the Remount Department is less now than it was before the War, with the exception of the civilians. The increase in the number of civilians is due to the five remount depots which have, since the Armistice, been added to the establishment for the purposes of the Territorial Army boarding-out scheme. This scheme covers for the present the pre-War subsidy scheme, which cost £47,000 per annum in registration fees. As regards the cost of the Remount Department, any comparison between 1914 and 1921 would be entirely misleading, owing to the outbreak of War in 1914, and owing to the fact that the cost of the Department for 1921 is not yet known. Taking a hypothetical cost based on the month of April, 1914, for the year 1914, the cost would have been approximately £82,000 for the administrative and clerical staffs. The estimated cost for the year 1921, based on the figures of January, is approximately £156,000, but the reductions which will, as stated above, be effected during the year will reduce this figure by £18,000. The question of the amalgamation of the Army Veterinary Service with the Remount Service is not a new one. I am informed that it would not be practicable for the Army Veterinary Service to perform the duties of the Remount Service in addition to their own duties, and it is not considered that a saving would accrue from a combination of the two services, even if this was feasible.

Settlement of Accounts

asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that John Carroll, late Royal Army Veterinary Corps, No. 33863, was discharged in January, 1919, but has received no settlement of his accounts; that, although the field disbursing officer at Poona was, according to the paymaster at Woolwich, advised to render an account on the 24th August, 1920, it has not been received; if he will make inquiry into the cause of this delay of over two years; and if, considering that the ex-soldier is seriously ill and has a wife and child dependent on him, he will cause a telegram to be sent, and, if any amount is due to Carroll, payment of such amount will be authorised by telegram?

Mr. Carroll has received a settlement of his accounts, which leaves him in debt £3 14s. 11d. A statement of accounts from the field disbursing officer at Poona has been received, and the only items which are questioned as not in agreement with the soldier's pay book are so small as not materially to alter the result.

Is there any reason why, after two years, a complete settlement should not be obtained?

Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that question, may I ask what is to become of the wife and child in the meantime?

I am not quite sure that I heard all the hon. Gentleman's question, but I gather that he was complaining of delay in the settlement of these Indian accounts. There has been great delay, and no one regrets it more than those in charge of the War Office. We have sent out an officer to deal with these matters. At the same time, during the War there was great pressure, and all Europeans were taken away for other duties, and native help had to be taken on instead. From that arose the great difficulty in disentangling the accounts.

When will this officer arrive in India, and when are we likely to hear any result of his efforts?

There has been considerable result. Hundreds of cases have been settled since he arrived in the autumn.

Can I have an answer to my question, what is to become of the wife and child in the meantime?

Household Troops (Change of Stations)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether household troops are generally ordered to change barracks or stations each year; and whether, with a view to economy, he will consider the advisability of units being kept for a longer period without change of quarters or stations?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Owing to the large proportion of the units of the household troops stationed in or near London, annual changes of station are necessary in order that they may be given periodical facilities for field training and relief from guard and other ceremonial duties.

Cavalry Regiments (Abolition)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of his decision to abolish four cavalry regiments, if he would consider substituting one or two of the household cavalry regiments for a similar number of line cavalry regiments proposed for abolition, in view of the fact that, strength for strength, household cavalry cost the taxpayer more, and that as they are stationed for about two-thirds of the time in London they have much less opportunity for cavalry training than most line cavalry regiments; and whether also the lighter class of cavalryman is considered more suitable for modern warfare?

As I have already explained to the House, the most thorough consideration has been given to the selection of the cavalry regiments to be disbanded. Military expediency and justice to the regiments concerned have been carefully weighed, and I am unable to recommend any departure from the decision arrived at.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to answer that part of my question as to whether household cavalry does not cost more than line cavalry regiments, and as to whether the former have less opportunities for training in London?

Certainly they do cost more than a line regi- ment; my answer to the previous question by my hon. and gallant Friend dealt with the question of training.

Are heavy cavalry considered is useful in modem warfare as light cavalry?

Would it not be better, instead of abolishing particular units entirely, to reduce all cavalry regiments by one squadron?

That was considered, but it does not have the effect of reducing the cost to the same extent.

Would not that be the case if composite regiments were made up of separate squadrons?

Fuel and Lighting Allowances

asked the Secretary of State for War whether Army Order 52, 1921, dealing with fuel and lighting allowances, is still in force; and, if so, whether, in the interests of economy, he will consider whether the allowances might be considerably reduced without hardship to those concerned?

Yes, Sir; Army Order 52 of 1921 is still in force. I do not consider that the rates can be reduced in view of the present high prices for fuel and light.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this matter was brought to my notice by an officer who expressed the opinion that the allowances were excessive?

I shall be very glad to hear in what part they are considered excessive; if the hon. Gentleman will give me the district we will see about it.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that 10s. 3d. is an excessive allowance?

Would the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of abolishing these allowances altogether and substitute for them consolidated pay?

Marriage Allowance

asked the Secretary of State for War why a soldier has to be 26 years of age before he is eligible for the marriage allowance under Army Order 357, of 1920; and, having regard to the hardships caused, whether he will have the Order reconsidered with a view to any married soldier being eligible for the allowance irrespective of age?

The grant of a marriage allowance to the regular soldier in time of peace was a great concession. The Government fixed the conditions for the three Services after very full consideration, and I can hold out no hope that it will be changed.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the position of the Territorial soldier separately, and is he aware that his position is totally different to the regular soldier?

Yes, Sir, that is so; and it is a matter that during the discussion on the Estimates I promised to look into.

Seeing that many of these men enlisted and served during the War and that they had a right to the marriage allowance, does not the right hon. Gentleman think it unfair to take that right from them; they served, and have remained in the Army?

I am very glad to have the opportunity of correcting that misapprehension; that right has not been taken from them. They have a perfect right to continue at the old rates of pay and the old separation allowance; but if they get a higher rate of pay they have to give up the separation allowance.

War Operations (Official Accounts)

asked the Secretary of State for War how many and, if possible, which actions took place during the late War about which no information in the shape of despatches or official accounts have been available to the public?

No official accounts have been made available to the public of the following operations during the War for which the Imperial Government was responsible:—

Italy, operations from April to November, 1917;

East Africa, operations from August, 1914, to December, 1915;

Nigeria, operations from January to May, 1917;

Togoland, operations from August, 1914, to January, 1915; and

The Cameroons, operations from August to September, 1914.

How is it proposed to communicate the official accounts of these actions to the public, or is it proposed not to say anything about them?

Well, shortly after the time they took place it was obviously not possible to make any public statement. Now, of course, the interest has to some extent evaporated, but no doubt they will be included in the Official History of the War.

Cameron Highlanders

asked the Secretary of State for War whether 150 men of the Cameron Highlanders stationed at Queenstown have refused to re-enlist on their periods of service terminating as a protest against the duties they have been compelled to perform in Ireland?

No information of this nature has reached me, but I am making inquiries.

Troops, Egypt and Palestine

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the forces in Egypt and Palestine are expected to continue to cost £6,250,000 a year; if so, for how long; whether the. Difference between the cost of the pre-War garrison of Egypt (£1,450,000) and £6,250,000 is to be regarded as the cost of accepting the Mandate for Palestine; and, if so, whether there is sufficient reason for accepting a Mandate in this behalf?

It is intended that further reductions should be made in the garrisons of Egypt and Palestine as circumstances permit. The reply to the third part of the question is in the negative, and the fourth part, therefore, does not arise.

Is the acceptance of this Mandate a condition of the Treaty of Versailles, or has this country the option to decline to accept if if it proves expensive—as apparently it will?

I do not think that question arises out of the question on the Paper; besides I do not think it should be addressed to me.

Motor Lorries (Subsidy)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether any decision has yet been reached to substitute for the proposed subsidy a system of register for motor lorries the services of which may be required by His Majesty's Government?

The subsidy scheme has been postponed for the present, and the question as to what steps should be taken in the matter during the current year is under consideration.

Trade and Commerce

Trade Associations (Belgium and Germany)

asked the Under-secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is able to give statistics, or if he will acquire the same, as to what extent the action of Belgium and Germany in combining certain trade associations in the steel, glass, and iron trade to utilize certain financial facilities given by this country to Belgium have operated against the British manufacturers in respect to trade of this type in Great Britain?

I have been asked to reply. I have no information in support of the suggestion contained in the hon. Member's question, but if he will furnish me with any further particulars that he may have in his possession, I shall be happy to institute enquiries.

Coffee Imports

asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what was the value in sterling of coffee imported from Central America into Great Britain in 1920 as compared with 1913?

I have been asked to reply. The value of coffee (including roasted or ground) imported into the United Kingdom, consigned from Central America, registered during the periods specified, was as fOllows:—

1913

£1,210,240

1920

£1,295,052

Foreign Commercial Travellers

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what steps have been taken to put commercial travellers of foreign nations entering the United Kingdom on the same footing as regards the payment of licences, taxes, and fees as British commercial travellers are placed on entering foreign countries?

No steps have been taken, or are in contemplation, to impose any special charges on foreign commercial travellers entering this country.

Is it not only fair that foreign commercial travellers entering this country should be placed on the same footing as British commercial travellers entering foreign countries?

I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman has raised this question before, and it was then explained that it would be impossible to impose the restrictions which, he suggests in his question without denouncing a very large number of treaties which exist between this country and other countries.

The common form of the most-favoured-nation Clause in the Treaty.

German Trade, Latin America

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he has received Reports from the British Commercial Attachés in Latin America as to the growth of German trade there; and whether German goods are as yet seriously entering into competition with British goods?

Statistics showing the current volume of German exports to Latin American Republics are not available, but reports have been received from Commercial Secretaries and from other sources which indicate that German trade is beginning to develope again in South America, and that Germany may again be regarded as a serious competitor in Latin America both for public and similar contracts and in some lines of commerce.

Questions

War Office (Women Clerks)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that, whilst many women with dependants are being discharged from the War Office, whatever their efficiency and length of service, other women with private means are being retained; that some of the women to be discharged have sat for establishment examinations, but in consequence of the fact that the results of these examinations are not to be issued until the results of the men's examinations are available, they are placed at a disadvantage until they know whether they were successful or not; and whether he will give instructions that all women who have sat for the establishment examination shall be retained at least until the result of the examination is known?

It would be contrary to the instructions of the Government on the Lytton Report for temporary women clerks to be retained indefinitely unless they fall within the exempted categories or their retention can be shown to be essential in the interests of the public service. It has therefore been necessary to fix a limit beyond which retention based on grounds of hardship alone cannot be allowed and this date in the case of the War Office is 31st March. There are eight temporary women clerks with more than nominal private means at present employed in the War Office. Of these, two are being retained pending the provision of suitable substitutes; three are being retained for the present in the interests of the public service, but the cases of two of these will be reviewed at the end of March; one is due to be discharged on substitution at the end of May; and two are due to be discharged on reduction of staff, one at the end of March and the other in about two months' time. As regards the suggestion that temporary women clerks should be retained pending the announcement of the result of the recent examinations, I would refer the hon. Member to the answers given by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to the hon. and gallant Member for Tottenham, North, on 21st February last, and to the hon. and gallant Member for Battersea, South, on 24th February last.

Unemployment

Street Collections

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that some of the men parading the streets and begging for public charity are men drawing Army pensions or other forms of benefit from public funds; and on what grounds these men are permitted by the police to beg in the public streets?

Collections on behalf of the unemployed are permissible in the Metropolis under the Regulations governing street collections. There is nothing to prevent persons who are not themselves in need of assistance acting as collectors, provided the funds collected are properly used for the benefit of the unemployed.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any information that the money is so properly applied?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it has been repeatedly pointed out that it is impossible for ex-service men to live on the pensions granted; in view of that, will the right hon. Gentleman increase the pensions so that the men can live in decency?

Questions

Motor Cars (Police Controls)

asked the Home Secretary how many controls were in operation in the Metropolitan Police Area between a.m. 19th March and p.m. 21st March for the detection of dangerous driving and for detection of cases of exceeding the speed limit, respectively; and how many police were employed and with what result?

During the period quoted there were no controls expressly to detect cases of dangerous driving. There were nine controls to detect infringements of the Motor Car Acts generally, other than speed offences, eight officers being employed, and no cases of dangerous driving were reported for prosecution. In addition, there was one control to detect cases of infringement of the speed limit, three officers were employed and five cases were reported for prosecution.

Pensions (Increase) Act

asked the Home Secretary whether, in respect of pensioners dying since the Pensions (Increase) Act was passed, but before arrangements had been made to commence paying them, the arrears due at the time of their death are payable to their widows?

I do not think the widow of a deceased pensioner is entitled to claim any payments which might have been made to her husband under the Act, but I have advised police authorities that it is within their discretion to make such payments to the widow if they think fit.

Was not the Minister in charge of the Bill asked if these people would be entitled to claim back payment, and did he not say distinctly "Yes"?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if the authorities like to wait long enough—until all the pensioners are dead—they need pay nothing.

asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the fact that the Ministry of Health has issued an Order applying The Pensions (Increase) Act, 1920, to all pensions paid under The Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act, 1896, and that the terms of this Order have been communicated to all Poor Law authorities, he proposes to issue a similar Order applying the Act of 1920 to all persons in receipt of pensions under The Police Act, 1890, and The Police (Scotland) Act, 1890, the terms to be similarly communicated to all police authorities in England, Wales and Scotland?

An Order applying the Act to the police was made on the 11th October last, and circulated a few days later to all police authorities in Great Britain.

May I take it from that answer that all police authorities will be compelled to apply the Act?

In cases where they have already refused—Worcester, for instance—will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to compel them to apply the Act?

If my hon Friend will bring any particular cases to my notice I will look into them. I cannot say off hand.

I asked the right hon. Gentleman at the commencement of the Session if he would give me a list of the counties that had refused to apply the Act. He answered that he would as soon as possible. I have not yet received it. It is well known what counties have refused. Will he take steps to compel them to apply the Act?

Grand Juries (Suspension) Act, 1917

asked the Home Secretary what is the present position with regard to the Grand Juries (Suspension) Act, 1917; whether inquiries have been made from Judges and others as to the effect of the Act upon the administration of justice and with what result; and whether he proposes to take any, and what, action in the matter?

The matter has already been dealt with by Section 4 of the Administration of Justice Act, 1920, which will come into operation on the expiration of the Grand Juries (Suspension) Act, 1917. This Section was drafted after taking the opinion of all the King's Bench Judges, who were unanimously in favour of the provision contained in Sub-section(1).

Policewomen

asked the Home Secretary whether he has taken any, and what, steps to give effect to the recommendations of the Committee which reported upon the employment of women in the police service; and whether he will inform the various local authorities what has been done in the Metropolitan area?

I issued a circular to all police authorities on the 17th instant. I will send the hon. Baronet a copy.

Has the Home Secretary yet made up his mind as to whether he is going to accept the recommendations of the Report with regard to the power of arrest?

Police Pensions (Regulations)

asked the Home Secretary whether a police constable who retired prior to 1914 is only allowed to earn an income of £143 per annum, making £200 with his pension, under penalty of losing a portion of his pension should he earn more, whereas a police constable who retires under the 1920 scheme can augment his income to any extent without penalty?

The statutory restriction formerly imposed on the amount which a pensioner might earn in addition to his pension is now repealed, and a police pensioner is free to earn as much as he can whether his pension was granted in 1914 or 1920.

Scotland

School, Cowdenbeath

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the school at Cowdenbeath, estimated to cost £44,000, is to be proceeded with, or is the erection of this school one of the works which is to be postponed?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. The Department has instructed one of His Majesty's inspectors to report upon the situation with regard to this school, and directly his report is received the Secretary for Scotland will reach a decision in the matter. If my hon. and gallant Friend will repeat his question immediately after the Easter Recess he shall have a reply.

Small Holdings

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether negotiations are still proceeding with the Campbell-Orde and Balranald Estates in North Uist with a view to meeting the claims of ex-service men and others for small holdings, and for additions to existing holdings; and whether the Board of Agriculture are speeding up land settlement in that island?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part, the Board are making every effort to expedite land settlements in this area.

Is there any likelihood of a settlement being reached with regard to these applications, of which I understand there are a large number, before the spring work commences in that part of the country?

I am sorry I have no personal information on that point, but if the hon. and gallant Member will put down a question I will inquire.

asked the Secretary for Scotland what progress has been made with the settlement of recent claims by ex-service men and others for small holdings in South Uist?

Negotiations were proceeding at the instance of the Board with a view to land settlement in South Uist. Owing, however, to illegal action, which I regret to say has been taken by certain applicants for small holdings there, these negotiations have meantime been suspended.

In other parts of the Highlands has not illegal action been taken and has not the Board of Agriculture done something?

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I shall raise this question on the Consolidated Fund Bill.

Post Office

Telegraph and Telephone Service, Weston-By-Welland

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the arrangement his Department made in 1915 with the inhabitants of Weston-by-Welland, near Market Harborough, for a joint telegraphic and telephone extension, but owing to the War it was not installed; whether he is aware that in 1919 the promise was withdrawn; will he state the reason for such, which has caused great dissatisfaction and inconvenience, particularly to farmers and business men; what are the reasons that telegrams for Weston cannot be telephoned through from Medbourne thereby saving great delay; what steps does he intend to take to carry out the pledge of 1915; and, in the meantime, is he prepared to arrange for telegrams for Weston to be telephoned through from Medbourne?

The offer of a joint extension of telegraph and telephone facilities to Weston-by-Welland in 1915 was not accepted within the period specified, namely, three months, and further consideration of the matter was deferred on account of the War. In 1919, as a result of re- newed applications, telephone facilities only were offered and accepted under guarantee, and the installation of a telephone call office is proceeding. The prospective receipts from telegrams do not now warrant the establishment of telegraph facilities at Weston-by-Welland, and in the absence of such facilities I regret that the transmission of telegrams by telephone from Medbourne to Weston and delivery thence by messenger would not be practicable.

Can the right hon. Gentleman not see his way to reconsidering that decision in view of the great importance of getting telegrams more quickly?

If there is no probability of loss on the service it shall be considered, but we have to deal with these questions on general lines.

Telephone Service, Isle of Man

asked the Postmaster-General whether the Manx House of Keys has appointed a committee whose terms of reference include the advisability or otherwise of purchasing the Manx telephone service from the British Government; whether he has already offered to sell the service to the Manx Government, and, if so, at what price; whether he will indicate the reasons for such negotiations being set on foot; and whether the House will be consulted before any further steps are taken in the matter?

The Lieutenant-Governor of the Isle of Man was recently informed, in connection with the application of the revised tariff, that, as the telephone system in the island is self-contained, it is not essential that it should be administered by the Post Office, in common with the telephone system of the United Kingdom, and that a proposal for the purchase of the system on reasonable terms by the Insular Government would be considered favourably. The price to be paid, in the event of a sale taking place has not yet been discussed and is now the subject of investigation. If the Insular Government decides to apply for a licence for the conduct of telephone business, the provisions of the Telegraph Acts will apply generally, and I am advised that legislation is not required.

Tradesmen

asked the Post master-General how many men are employed by him who are electrical fitters, scientific instrument makers, and engineering fitters; how many of these were qualified journeymen on being employed by him; and how many of these men, respectively, are employed under Post Office conditions; under trade union conditions; and under trade union conditions, less five per cent. for Post Office privileges, in accordance with their options under the findings of the Holt Committee Report (Tradesmen), 1914?

I am having inquiry made and will communicate the result to my hon. Friend.

Parcel Post (Jewellery)

asked the Postmaster General whether he has sanctioned a new Regulation excluding from the parcel post to India and other parts of the British Dominions the sending of parcels the contents of which exceed in value £120; whether parcels to the same parts can be sent from the Continent, irrespective of value; and whether, considering that this new Regulation is prejudicial to the interests of British jewellers and art dealers, he will at once give instructions for the same to be cancelled?

It has recently been found necessary to restrict the value of any single parcel of jewellery sent by the foreign and colonial parcel post to the maximum amount for which a parcel can be insured with the Post Office in the service to the country concerned; if there is no Post Office insurance system, the maximum value is fixed at £400. The limit of insured value for India is £120 per parcel. This restriction is necessitated by the occurrence of a number of thefts of parcels of jewellery of high value from the foreign mails. The parcel post is not intended or adapted for the carriage of parcels of very high value, for which proper safeguards cannot be provided except at a cost which the low rates charged for Post Office parcels do not warrant. I am not aware of any similar Regulation in any Continental parcel post service; there is nothing to prohibit any other postal administration from adopting a similar restriction if the conditions are considered to justify it. Jewellery in excess of the value admitted by post can be despatched to destinations abroad through shipping companies' services, and I am not prepared to cancel the new Regulation.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the charge of the shipping companies for transmitting jewellery from this country to the Colonies is in the nature of 6 per cent.; and is he aware that that will absolutely handicap the trade of the British jewellers; and has he received a number of complaints from insurance companies in regard to that; and will he, under the circumstances, reconsider the matter and take into consideration the fact that no loss by this falls upon the Post Office?

I have been in touch with the trade in regard to this matter, and it is time that I have received a considerable number of communications in regard to it, but it must be remembered that these parcels are easily portable and are very valuable, and there is great temptation caused by them, and after a great amount of consideration we thought it advisable to stand by the Regulation.

Has any loss fallen upon the Post Office, and has the right hon. Gentleman received a considerable number of complaints from insurance companies on this matter?

I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Motion for the Adjournment.

Temporary Postmen

asked the Postmaster-General whether, in connection with the approaching discharge of about 150 temporary postmen employed in the East-Central District, he will now state whether he will receive a small deputation from the men concerned, in order that they may put their case before him?

These men were engaged during the War in substitution of members of the regular Post Office staff serving with the Forces; and now that normal conditions are being restored, I regret that they must give way to the regular staff who have returned and to other ex-service men who are being engaged to fill vacancies. The Post Office is pledged to give all available posts to ex-service men, in accordance with the policy of the Government, and I am afraid that no useful purpose would be served by receiving a deputation. It may, however, be found possible to retain some of the men for a short time after the expiry of the notices of discharge.

League of Nations

Secretariat

asked the Prime Minister who is the official of the British Treasury who has been selected to serve on the committee appointed by the Council of the League of Nations on 21st February, 1921, to consider all factors connected with the organisation, number, salaries, and allowances of the permanent staff of the secretariat of the League of Nations and the International Labour Office?

Colonel R. A. Johnson, C.B.E., an Assistant Secretary, has been nominated to serve on the committee referred to by the hon. Member.

Will this Gentleman receive a salary and allowances for serving on the committee?

He is an Under-Secretary in the Treasury. Obviously, he will have to have his expenses. I cannot say more without notice.

Covenant (Amendments)

asked the Prime Minister whether the Lord President of the Council has accepted the Chairmanship of the Special Commission of 11 members of different nationality appointed by the Council of the League of Nations to consider amendments to the Covenant; whether this Commission will meet in London or at Geneva; and whether the Commission has been requested to report on the amendments already suggested by 1st June, 1921?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The first meeting of the Commission will probably take place at Geneva in April. It is hoped that it will be possible for the Commission to submit its first report to the Council by the 1st June.

Are we to understand that the Lord President of the Council is going to remain abroad all the time?

No, Sir, I certainly hope to see my right hon. Friend long before then.

Will it be competent for this special Commission to consider the principle of equality between negligible nations and great Powers, or will important questions like that be excluded from the purview of its operations?

My hon. Friend will, I am sure, agree that I ought to have notice of that question.

Court of International Justice

asked the Prime Minister whether the Union of South Africa, New Zealand and India are among the 27 States, members of the League of Nations, who, in addition to Great Britain, have signed and ratified the protocol of the statute for the permanent Court of International Justice in the form approved by the Assembly of the League at Geneva on 13th December, 1920; and whether any information has been received as to whether Australia and Canada are now prepared to take the same step?

The Governments of the States mentioned in the first part of the question had signed, but had not, up to the 3rd instant, ratified the protocol. Arrangements are in hand for ratification by Great Britain. It is understood that signature on behalf of Canada is contemplated. No information is available as regards the intention of the Commonwealth of Australia.

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

Fraud

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the recent conviction and sentence of a pensioner named Benjamin Paul, who, at Tower Bridge Police Court, was found guilty of fraudulently obtaining some £60 for treatment and travelling allowances; whether he is aware that in his defence the accused stated that hundreds of other men did the same thing, and paid a man 6d. to sign their cards; whether he will cause inquiry to be made as to whether, as is very widely stated, similar laxity exists in the signatures of unemployment cards, thereby throwing heavy loss upon the tax-paying public; and, if the answer is in the affirmative, will he have the necessary instruction issued so as to make the practice of fraud more difficult?

I have been asked to reply to this question. In the case mentioned the fraud of the pensioner was facilitated, as the magistrate pointed out, by the failure of the local War Pensions Committee to keep in touch with the hospital to which they sent the man for treatment. This is not, however, an isolated instance of fraud in connection with out-patient treatment, and the question is already under consideration with a view to the issue of more stringent regulations. With regard to the last part of the question, I am informed by my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Labour, that he has no grounds for thinking that applicants for unemployment benefit hire other persons to personate them in attending at the Employment Exchange and signing the register. He will, however, consider any facts which my hon. and gallant Friend may be able to put before him.

Audit Department (Ex-Service Women)

asked the Minister of Pensions how many, if any, of the women now being removed from the Audit Department are ex-service women as defined by the Report of Lord Lytton's Committee; and how many, if any, are the widows of men who lost their lives in the War?

Of the women in the Audit Department, four are ex-service women and three are widows of men who lost their lives in the War. As I informed the hon. Member for Dartford on the 9th instant, these women will not be removed from their present work until men have been trained to replace them, and will then be continued in employment in a woman's branch of the Ministry without loss of salary.

Questions

Bristol Aeroplane Company

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that allegations that the Bristol Aeroplane Company, which has contracts with the Air Ministry, has recently written to women formerly in its employ, who have regular work elsewhere, asking them to return to the company to work on Government contracts, whilst men formerly employed by the company are unemployed, have been made; whether the Air Ministry has some duty with regard to the firm's conduct; whether such action, if not a breach of the spirit of the Fair Wages Clause, is in direct opposition to the general policy of all Government Departments with their employes; and will he have inquiries instituted and, if the facts are found to be as stated, a communication made to the company in this matter?

I have been asked to reply. As I stated in reply to a similar question by the hon. Member on 17th March, the Ministry gives orders to this firm, and is satisfied with the manner in which the work is carried out. The Ministry is in no way responsible for the firm's conduct of their private affairs, so long as the conditions of labour conform to the ordinary standards of the Fair Wages Clause. The Ministry are, however, making inquiries in order to reassure themselves on this point.

Osborne College

asked the Prime Minister if the Government have come to any conclusion as to the future of Osborne College; and whether the aviation or any other Department is likely to take it over?

I have been asked to reply to this question. The Admiralty have no further use for the property, of which they are only tenants, and as soon as the buildings, etc., have been cleared on the closing of the Royal Naval College at the end of this term, the intention is to hand them over to the coming Departments (the Office of Works and the Office of Woods and Forests). I understand that various projects for their future use are under consideration, but no decision has yet been given.

India

H.R.H. the Duke of Connaught

asked the Prime Minister if it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to ask the House to express its appreciation and gratitude to Field-Marshal H.R.H. the Duke of Connaught for the admirable manner in which he has carried out in India the duties that were entrusted to him?

The House feels, I am sure, both appreciation of the admirable manner in which His Royal Highness discharged his duties and gratitude to him for undertaking them; but it does not appear to me to be necessary to pass any Resolution in Parliament in order to give expression to what I believe to be the universal sentiment of the country.

Questions

Emigration (Oversea Dominions)

asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that the Overseas Settlement Committee, up to the end of February, has issued warrants for free passages to 44,588 emigrants to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and other parts of the British Empire; whether he is aware that, in the Dominions mentioned, the problem of unemployment now exists in an acute form, necessitating the organisation of relief works and maintenance subsidies; and whether, in view of these facts, the transportation of British workers will be discontinued until authoritative information is avail- able as to the state of the labour market in the Dominions concerned?

The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's question is in the affirmative. With regard to the last part of the question, the hon. Member is under a misapprehension. No voucher for a free passage to any part of the Empire is issued by the Oversea Settlement Committee to an applicant until his or her case has been considered by the representative of the Oversea Government concerned, and the latter has satisfied himself that the applicant is both a suitable settler and is assured of employment on arrival. Large classes of industrial workers have, in view of the conditions referred to in the question, been consistently refused approval by the representatives of the Oversea Governments, and while it is the case that some of these have nevertheless gone at their own expense and have found themselves in difficulties in consequence, the machinery which we have set up has in the main had precisely the effect which the hon. Member desires, namely, to discourage workers going from here to almost equally congested labour conditions overseas. As a matter of fact, the great majority of those to whom free passages are granted go overseas for the purpose of settling upon the land.

International Marriages

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government intends to deal with international and inter-Empire marriages at the next Imperial Conference; whether there are any figures available of the number of German and Russian subjects repatriated who have left English wives and families of children behind; and if the time has arrived for a revision of treaties of extradition and repatriation which leave an army of women and children to be provided for out of the rates?

The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the negative, and to the last part that the matter does not come within the scope of treaties of extradition.

Maintenance Orders (Overseas Dominions)

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government will promote legislation to deal with the scandal of the deserted wives of colonials; and whether, seeing that the Matrimonial Causes (Dominion Troops) Act of 1919 has never been operative by reason of the failure of the self-governing Dominions to legislate for the application of the Act to such Dominions, that no Order in Council has applied the Act to any of His Majesty's possessions or to any territory under His Majesty's protection, and that the Act of 1919 expired in 1920, he will say what further steps the Government proposes to take to enforce maintenance for these deserted wives or to give them the right to get such marriages dissolved by divorce or annulment?

As regards the first part of my hon. Friend's question, I would point out that the Matrimonial Causes (Dominion Troops) Act was, up to its expiration in July, 1920, operative in the Commonwealth of Australia and New Zealand, the necessary corresponding legislation having been passed in those Dominions; as to the latter part, I would refer the hon. Member to the Maintenance Orders (Facilities for Enforcement) Act passed here last year. The extension of this Act to the Dominions awaits the passing of reciprocal legislation.

Is it not a fact that a colonial soldier's wife who is left in England, and has not obtained a maintenance order from him before he left, cannot claim maintenance under the Act mentioned in the answer?

Yes. As soon as Australia passes a corresponding measure it will be possible for the wife here to secure maintenance from the husband who has deserted her and gone to Australia; but it will require legislation both in this country and in Australia before the scheme contemplated can be put into effect.

Has the Australian Commonwealth been asked to pass legislation in support of the legislation that has been passed here?

Certainly, we have invited the Commonwealth Government to pass legislation.

Belgian Debt (German Bonds)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the United States of America has accepted German gold bonds in settlement of the Belgian debt to the United States; what is the amount Belgium owes us; and whether we have been asked to take German gold bonds in settlement?

In a letter sent by Monsieur Clemenceau, ex-President Wilson and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, to the Belgian Minister of Foreign Affairs on 16th June, 1919, each of the signatories promised to recommend to his Government that bonds to be delivered by Germany to the Reparation Commission should be accepted in satisfaction of sums borrowed by Belgium since the War and up to 11th November, 1918, together with interest at 5 per cent. Under Article 232 of the Treaty of Versailles, Germany undertakes to make a special issue of bearer bonds payable not later than 1st May, 1926, to an amount equivalent to the sums which Belgium has borrowed from the Allied and Associated Governments up to 11th November, 1918, together with interest at the rate of 5 per cent. on such sums. The amount is to be determined by the Reparation Commission. I understand from statements which have appeared in the Press that on the 22nd ultimo ex-President Wilson called the attention of the United States Senate and House of Representatives to this agreement, but I have no information as to what further action the United States Government have taken or intend to take in the matter. The amount borrowed by Belgium from this country during the War was approximately £77,000,000. So soon as the Reparation Commission have determined the exact amount and have obtained bonds from the German Government, these bonds will be accepted by His Majesty's Government in satisfaction of Belgium's obligations under the powers conferred upon them by the Treaty of Peace Act, 1919.

Coinage

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that faulty coins, below weight and with jagged edges, are being issued to the banks by the Mint at present; and will he take measures to suspend such issue?

Silver coins are tested for weight before being issued by the Mint to the Bank of England, which distributes them to other banks, and I am not aware that any below the legal weight have been so issued. I should be glad to see the pieces on which the criticism is founded. The coins are also all specially inspected for defects, and at more than one stage. Any defective piece that may accidentally have escaped detection amongst about 100,000,000 coins, of the new alloy that have been issued can be returned to the Mint and exchanged. The proportion is very small.

May I be allowed to show to the right hon. Gentleman presently a coin paid to the National Provincial Bank last week which answers the description in question 59? There is no doubt about that.

I have every intention of presenting it to the British Museum after the right hon. Gentleman has seen it, in order that it may be placed among the triumphant exploits of the English Mint.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the issue of the present subsidiary coinage of low alloy is to be suspended owing to the unsatisfactory character of the alloy; and, if so, whether he will revert to the ancient standard, which gave perfect satisfaction?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative; the second part does not, therefore, arise.

Allies, Liabilities

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether there have been any further negotiations and, if so, of what nature in the direction of mutually writing off the liabilities of the Allies to one another?

Supplementary Estimates

63 and 65.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what is the total to date of the Supplementary Estimates for the year ending 31st March, and approximately what amount of such Supplementary Estimates had been spent before the expenditure had been authorised by the House of Commons;

(2) whether there are any further financial safeguards to the public purse which can be introduced in the coming financial year to check the habit of Departments incurring heavy expenditure which has not been sanctioned by this House?

The total Supplementary Estimates for the year have been £168,492,052, and in respect of these Estimates advances of approximately £11,500,000 have for short periods been made from the Civil Contingencies Fund, for instance, for such urgent services as the payments due to the railways under the Railway Agreements, and for the pay of the Royal Irish Constabulary. These two items account for nearly £10,000,000 out of the £11,500,000. Immediate steps were taken to obtain Parliamentary approval of the increased expenditure, and such approval has been obtained within a few weeks of the advances. I do not think further safeguards are either necessary or practicable. I would remind the House that the special Civil Contingencies Fund Act of 1919 was passed precisely for the purpose of enabling the Government during a limited period following the War to deal with urgent services in advance of specific Parliamentary sanction.

Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been directed to a Resolution of this House passed on 30th March, 1849, directing the attention of all Departments to the great harm that arises from Supplementary Estimates, and if he has not, would he look it up and remind the Departments concerned?

My attention has not been called to the Resolution of 1849, but, as the House knows, I have issued from the Treasury strong injunctions to the various Departments as to the inconvenience and impropriety, unless they are absolutely indispensable, of Supplementary Estimates. The circumstances of the War have rendered an increased number of Supplementary Estimates unavoidable, but we will do our best to reduce their number.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any hope that he will be able to prevent in the next year these Supplementary Estimates recurring?

I have never known any Government which was able to go through the year without any Supplementary Estimates, but I have great hope that their number and their amount will be reduced.

Sparkling Wines

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the actual annual revenue derived from sparkling wines imported into the United Kingdom when the duty was 7s. 6d. per case; what amount was budgeted for when the wine duty was doubled and the ad valorem tax was imposed on sparkling wines; and what is the actual revenue up to date upon sparkling wines since the Budget of 1920?

The revenue from sparkling wines amounted to £227,000 in 1913–14 and £326,000 in 1919–20 and was estimated at £1,250,000 for the current financial year. The actual receipts in the eleven months ended 28th February last were £553,000.

Considering that the amount is only about 30 per cent. of the amount budgeted for, will my right hon. Friend consider the advisability in the forthcoming Budget of taking off those additional duties?

The question will have to be considered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and possibly by His Majesty's Government after he has considered it, and I shall not be the Chancellor of the Exchequer. There is another thing which he will have to consider and that is the rate of profit charged by distributors and sellers of wine in this country, and he will have to consider whether the reduced consumption is not even more due to the exorbitant profit than to the tax.

May we rest assured that this matter will be considered by the Government without any prejudice as to whether it should be this class or that class of people who should drink these wines on which such heavy duties have been placed?

I have not observed that the consumption of this class of wine was confined to a single class. The case must be considered, like other taxes, upon its fiscal merits.

Retired Officers (Re-Employment)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Regulations of the Treasury permit officers of the civil, naval, or military services, who have been retired under the age limits and are receiving pensions other than disability pensions, in some instances amounting to £1,000 per annum, to fill whole-time posts, with salaries of a similar amount, in other civil Departments; whether it is permissible for such officials to draw salary and pension concurrently: whether he can state the number of such appointments made since the Armistice; and whether, in view of the large number of all ranks of unemployed in consequence of the War, he will take steps to terminate all such appointments or, alternatively, to suspend the issue of service pension to any individual while occupying a highly paid post under the State?

The pensions of retired civil servants are liable to be abated or suspended on re-employ merit in accordance with the provisions of Section 20 of the Superannuation Act, 1834. In the case of military and naval officers who are, of course, liable to retirement at a younger age, it was formerly the practice to make an abatement from their civil salary in respect of their retired pay, but this abatement was considered unfair and was abolished by the Retired Officers (Civil Employment) Act, 1919. Information as to the number of retired civil servants and officers reemployed since the Armistice is not available. I am unable to agree to the adoption of either of the alternatives suggested in the last part of the question.

Bank Rate

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is now prepared to recommend the fall in bank rate at least one per cent., and thus give the necessary appreciation of market which will give movement to the machinery of trade towards demand, not only in the home trade, but also the foreign trade of Great Britain?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can see his way to recommend a reduction in the bank rate?

I would refer my hon. Friends to the answer which I gave to a question put to me by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central on 22nd February.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the vital importance of this fall in bank rate upon unemployment, which is the most vital question we have to consider to-day?

The fixing of the bank rate, as I have before explained, rests not with the Government but with the Governor and Court of the Bank of England. What the Chancellor of the Exchequer is immediately concerned with is the rate for Treasury Bills. Both these rates are constantly under review by the competent authorities. They are not fixed for any definite period, but are reviewed in the light of current circumstances. As to a reduction in the rate for Treasury Bills, no doubt my successor in the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer will follow my practice of reconsidering the question from time to time, and will take such action as he thinks fit when he thinks it proper that fresh action should be taken.

Will the right hon. Gentleman not further consider the fact that the whole of the industrial people of this country, both employers and employés and employés' representatives, are agreed that it is only by the Government putting the pressure they possess upon the Bank of England as to a lower bank rate that can give a movement to industry that is vitally essential if we are to deal with this most vital problem of unemployment?

Would not a suggestion from the Chancellor of the Exchequer be very carefully considered by the Governor of the Bank of England?

I hope so, and believe so, so far as my opinion is worth anything in a matter of this kind. During the time I have been Chancellor of the Exchequer I have thought it very desirable that I should be in close touch on such matters with the Governor of the Bank of England, but I have thought it most undesirable that I should put pressure upon him in the exercise of his discretion. I think that nothing will be better for trade than when financial conditions are so altered and the bank rate and not the Treasury Bill rate governs the price of money. The price of money is wholly outside Government action. As regards the other question, I do not think it is possible by question and answer to argue out the considerations which affect money rates, but the hon. Member may be quite certain that those who have, authority in the matter take a wide view of the situation.

Income Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that Income Tax, Schedule A, is based in Scotland on the annual valuation roll, which is corrected from year to year, whereas in England it is based on the valuation of 1910, and that thus Scotland is being overtaxed to the extent of at least £500,000 a year; and if he intends to take any steps to give relief to Scotland in this matter?

The Royal Commission on the Income Tax had before them the matter to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers, and in paragraph 440 of their Report they say as follows: "The method of valuation adopted in Scotland makes it possible to adjust the assessments for Income Tax under Schedule A of each year, and this annual correction, though it has no legal sanction seems to be generally approved, and should in our opinion be legalised." As it has not yet been possible to deal with this and the other recommendations of the Royal Commission with regard to the valuation of property in the United Kingdom, and, moreover, as representations were made by property owners in Scotland that inequalities would arise in connection with the rent increases for 1920–21 and the operation of the Rent Restrictions Acts, it was agreed by the Board of Inland Revenue that the practice hitherto followed should be discontinued. The Schedule A assessments in Scotland for the year 1920–21 have, therefore, except as regards new or structurally altered properties, been based upon the 1919–20 figures in accordance with the provisions of Section 14 (3) of the Finance Act, 1920.

Does not this disclose some unfairness towards Scotland, and will the right hon. Gentleman endeavour to make some restitution?

No, I think my answer shows the extreme desire of the Inland Revenue to show perfect fairness. I think when my hon. Friend has considered it he will be of the same opinion.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if it has been ruled that, in computing the amount for which a person in Scotland is liable for Income Tax, Schedule A, the full rates are not to be deducted in cases where the annual value has been increased in the valuation roll by an amount covering the increase in the owner's rates over the amount for 1919–20, and that no allowance is made for Income Tax purposes in respect to such increase in the rates; and what is the authority or justification for such a proceeding?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the provisions of paragraph (1) of the Fourth Rule of No. V of Schedule A of the Income Tax Act, 1918, from which he will see that, as regards rates paid by property-owners in Scotland, the Commissioners of Inland Revenue are required to "cause such relief to be given in respect of tax as is just and reasonable having regard to the additional burden on the landlord." My hon. and gallant Friend will, I think, appreciate that it would be neither just nor reasonable to make any allowance for increased rates in cases where the amount of the increase is covered by an increase of rent or annual value which is not included in the Income Tax assessment in respect of the property.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is proposed to continue to weekly manual wage-earners liable for Income Tax the abatement in respect of their travelling fares, as at present conceded by the Board of Inland Revenue; and whether, if so continued, he will consider making similar allowances to clerical workers?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave on the 9th instant to a question on this subject by the hon. Member for Ilford.

Austria (Financial Assistance)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government have considered the question of rendering financial assistance to Austria; if so, will he state what decision has been come to in the matter; and whether, in the event of any grant or loan being made, conditions will be attached which will prevent such assistance being diverted in any shape or form to the benefit of German commercial or financial houses.

I must refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer I gave on Thursday last in reply to a question addressed to the Prime Minister on this subject by my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln.

Notices of Motion:

Matrimonial and Divorce Laws

On this day three weeks to call attention to the Matrimonial and Divorce Laws of this country, and to move a Resolution.—[ Mr. Rendall. ]

Naturalisation Certificates

On this day three weeks to call attention to the great delay of the Home Office in dealing with Naturalisation Certificates, and to move a Resolution.—[ Sir T. Bramsdon ]

Workmen's Compensation

On this day three weeks to call attention to the question of Workmen's Compensation, and to move a Resolution.—[ Mr. Spoor. ]

Bill Presented

Ministry of Transport (Transfer of Railways) Bill,

"to provide for the transfer of railway undertakings to the Minister of Transport, and for purposes connected therewith," presented by Mr. JAMES HENRY THOMAS; supported by Mr. William Graham, Mr. Spencer, Mr. John Jones, Mr. Myers, Mr. Royce, Mr. Sexton, Mr. Waterson, Mr. Wignall, Mr. James Wilson, and Mr. Robert Young; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 12th April; and to be printed. [Bill 53.]

Message from the Lords

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend the Criminal Law Amendment Acts, 1885 to 1912, and to repeal Section five of the Punishment of Incest Act, 1908." [Criminal Law Amendment Bill [ Lords. ]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act for authorising the Bristol Waterworks Company to construct new works; for increasing the charges of the Company; for extending their limits of supply; and for other purposes." [Bristol Water Bill [ Lords. ]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers upon the Waltham Abbey and Cheshunt Gas and Coke Company; to alter the name of the Company; and for other purposes." [Waltham and Cheshunt Gas Bill [ Lords. ]

And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers on the City of Oxford Motor Services, Limited." [Oxford Motor Services Bill [ Lords. ]

That they have agreed to,

German Reparation (Recovery) Bill,

Coal Mines (Decontrol) Bill, without Amendment.

Bristol Water Bill [ Lords ],

Waltham and Cheshunt Gas Bill [ Lords ],

Oxford Motor Services Bill [ Lords ],

Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Cambridge University and Town Waterworks Bill

Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Standing Committees (Chairmen's Panel)

Mr. JOHN WILLIAM WILSON reported from the Chairmen's Panel; That they had appointed Major Barnston to act as Chairman of Standing Committee D (in respect of the Docking of Horses Bill and of the Performing Animals (Prohibition) Bill); and Mr. Hodge to act as Chairman of Standing Committee D (in respect of the Health Resorts and Watering Places Bill).

Report to lie upon the Table.

Selection (Standing Committees)

Standing Committee D

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection: That they had nominated the following Members to serve on Standing Committee D: Captain Ainsworth, Mr. Charles Barrie, Sir Edward Beauchamp, Major Brassey, Colonel Burdon, Mr. Carr, Mr. Casey, Major Cope, Mr. Dawes, Major Entwistle, Captain FitzRoy, Mr. Gillis, Mr. Hancock, Mr. Hanna, Major Hennessey, Mr. Hannon, Mr. Hinds, Mr. Austin Hopkinson, Mr. Jesson, Mr. Jodrell, Mr. Haydn Jones, Lieut-Commander Ken-worthy, Mr. Kenyon, Mr. Lyle-Samuel, Mr. Lynn, Mr. Morrison, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur Murray, Major William Murray, Major Newton, Captain O'Grady, Mr. Albert Parkinson, Mr. Frederick Roberts, Sir William Seager, Mr. Sexton, Mr. Alfred Short, Mr. Walter Smith, Mr. Spencer, Captain Sir Beville Stanier, Mr. Strauss, Mr. Sugden, Brigadier-General Surtees, Mr. Swan, Mr. Trevelyan Thomson, Mr. William Thorne, Mr. Tootill, Mr. Townley, Mr. Waddington. Mr. Wignall, Mr. Wintringham, and Sir Samuel Hill-Wood.

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had nominated Standing Committee D as the Committee on which Government Bills shall not have precedence.

Sir SAMUEL ROBRTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee D (in respect of the Docking of Horses Bill and the Performing Animals (Prohibition) Bill) Sir John Baird, Mr. Betterton, Mr. Briant, Colonel Burn, Brigadier-General Cocker-ill, Mr. Alfred Davies (Clitheroe), Mr. William Graham, Mr. Frederick Green, Mr. Morris, Mr. Murchison, Major Palmer, Mr. Spoor, Major Steel, Captain Watson, and Sir Richard Winfrey.

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Ten Members to Standing Committee D (in respect of the Health Resorts and Watering Places Bill): Mr. James Bell, Colonel Burn, Major David Davies, Captain Ernest Evans, Captain Foxcroft, Mr. Grundy, Sir Thomas Robinson, Mr. Thomas-Stanford, Mr. Aneurin Williams, and Sir Kingsley Wood.

Standing Committee A

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A: Sir Thomas Poison; and had appointed in substitution: General Sir Charles Townsend.

Reports to lie upon the Table.

Orders of the Day

Ministries of Munitions and Shipping (Cessation) Bill [Lords],

Considered in Committee.

[Sir EDWIN CORNWALL in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—Provisions as to transfer of property, etc., on cessation of Ministries. 5 & 6 Geo. 5, c. 51. 6 & 7 Geo. 5, c. 68

(1) Any Order in Council made under Section six of the Ministry of Munitions Act, 1915, or made under Section thirteen of the New Ministries and Secretaries Act, 1916, fixing a date earlier than the termination of a period of twelve months after the conclusion of the present War as the date on which the office of Minister of Munitions and the Ministry of Munitions or the office of Shipping Controller and the Ministry of Shipping are to cease may—

( a ) vest and transfer or provide for the vesting and transfer in and to any Government Department or Departments of any property, rights and liabilities held, enjoyed, or incurred by the Minister of Munitions or the Shipping Controller (including any person who has held the office of Minister of Munitions or Shipping Controller);

( b ) provide for the discontinuance of any of the powers of the Minister of Munitions or the Shipping Controller;

( c ) provide for the transfer to some other Government Department or Departments (notwithstanding anything in Section six. of the Ministry of Munition Act, 1915, or Section thirteen of the New Ministries and Secretaries Act, 1916) of such of the powers or duties of the Minister of Munitions or the Shipping Controller as are not so discontinued as aforesaid; and for the exercise or performance of the powers or duties so transferred by the Department or under the direction of the Department by any organisation which may be established in manner provided by the Order, and for enabling any such organisation to sue and be sued; and

( d ) provide for the Government Department to which any such property, rights, liabilities, powers or duties are transferred being deemed in law to be, as respects such property, rights, liabilities, powers or duties,

(2) Any such Order may contain such consequential, incidental, and supplemental provisions (including provisions as to the transfer of officers) as may appear necessary or proper for the purposes of the Order, and shall have effect as if enacted in this Act, but may be varied by a subsequent Order.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1, a ), to leave out the word "including" ["including any person"], and to insert instead thereof the words "or by."

This is a drafting Amendment to carry out the intention of the Government, and I understand it is to be accepted.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1, b ), to leave out the words "any of."

On the Second Reading yesterday I suggested that it would be a great advantage to the House if the Government could see their way to lay on the Table of the House the Order in Council before the final stages of this Bill were passed, I understand that that is to be done, and if so the House will be in a much better position to judge of the precise measure in which it is intended to pass on the powers of these Ministries to other Departments when the Ministries cease to exist.

The particular powers to which I refer in this Amendment are powers exercised by the Ministry of Munitions under the Defence of the Realm Act. I will not go into any great detail as I understand this Amendment may be received favourably by the Government. But I would remind the Committee that under the Defence of the Realm Act, which is still in operation, and so far as one can gather has many months to go, the Ministry of Munitions has powers of an arbitrary kind. For instance, it has powers to control the lights on motor cars, to supersede the Factory Acts, to issue permits for certain areas, and to punish for Press offences, this last being a power of the widest kind. The Committee will agree that it is improper that any of these powers should be continued to any Government Department in the present circumstances. That being so, I content myself with moving the Amendment.

I am quite willing to meet my hon. and gallant Friend in the object which he has in view, but I am advised that the word "Regulations" in place of the word "Acts" gives him all he wants. The Regulations are made under the Acts and the aboliton of these Regulations is what my hon. Friend desires. I would call the attention of the Committee to the fact that the Ministry of Munitions is to cease by this Bill, which we are now considering, and therefore there is nothing left except the Regulations under these Acts. Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will accept that.

If the right hon. Gentleman assures me that the purpose which I have in view is covered by the substitution of the word "Regulations" for "Act," I accept the assurance and I accept his acceptance of this Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made, in Sub-section (1, b ), after the word "Controller," insert the words, "under the Defence of the Realm Regulations and any other powers."—[ Captain W. Benn. ]

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1, c ), to leave out the words

"and for the exercise or performance of the powers or duties so transferred by the Department or under the direction of the Department by any organisation which may be established in manner provided by the Order, and for enabling any such organisation to sue and be sued;"

The previous part of the paragraph provides for the continuance of such powers or duties of the Minister of Munitions or the Shipping Controller as are not so discontinued as aforesaid. The effect of my Amendment would be to prevent such powers as are not so discontinued being continued through another Department or an organisation which may be established in manner provided by the Order. What I am afraid of is not that the present Government would set up a new Department, but we cannot be certain that we shall have the present Government always with us, and it might be that another Government might set up another Department which would deal with such powers as are not discontinued.

I cannot accept my right hon. Friend's Amendment. This is a paragraph which gives to the Treasury the powers to do what is required. The Board of Trade have authority and can perform such functions as are necessary with regard to the Regulations of the Ministry of Shipping. But with regard to the Treasury the position is different. The only way in which, under Treasury supervision, the liquidation can be carried out is to give the Treasury power to set up an organisation for the purpose. The organisation which will be set up, and will be specified in the Order in Council, is a small Commission of four or five, who will advise the Disposal Board and act under the supreme authority of the Treasury, who will be responsible for them to the House of Commons. That is all it means. It gives the necessary power for the liquidation of the Ministry of Munitions, which is now in process. Without that power it could do nothing. If these words come out the passage of the Bill would leave everything in the air after the end of the financial year.

I do not want to do anything to injure or delay the passing of the Bill, and I am certain that what my right hon. Friend says will be carried out, but he has not quite convinced me that there is no other way than what he describes. It is quite possible that power may be necessary to do what he wishes, but I think that this would give the power to do other things as well. I would suggest that if I withdraw this Amendment now, he will see before the Report stage whether he can put in some words which would limit the powers to the extent which he desires, so that there shall not be indefinite powers.

I am quite willing to consider that without committing myself. I can assure my right hon. Friend that I do not agree with him. We do not want power to do anything beyond what I have explained.

On the understanding that my right hon. Friend will consider it, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to insert the words:

There ought to be some limit to the powers conferred by this Bill. I imagine that from now till 1st January, 1923, which is very nearly two years, will be sufficient to give them all the powers that they require, and in the event of it not being sufficient it will be quite within the power of the Government of the day to introduce a short Bill continuing the powers. I therefore trust that my right hon. Friend will accept the Amendment. I should be quite prepared to substitute another date provided I get some date in the Bill limiting the powers and ensuring that liquidation takes place within a reasonable time.

I hope that my right hon. Friend will accept this Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) has said quite fairly that he does not hold himself bound to the year that he has mentioned and that he will be very glad to accept any reasonable extension of that time. The principle of the Amendment is a very sound one, and I hope that with the offer that has been made the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will make some proposal to meet it. I suggest that these liquidators will proceed with varying degrees of speed and will gather around them interests which will not want to be abolished. I make no personal reference; I simply state what we all know is likely to happen. There will be dominant driving interests to keep at any rate the semblance of these Departments still in existence. The House and the country do not want that. How can we prevent it? I suggest that we can prevent it quite simply in the way which the Amendment proposes, that at a certain date the powers shall come to an end, unless, of course, Parliament expressly provides otherwise. The House then will have an opportunity, three or two-and-a-half years' hence, of reviewing the situation. There will be another Government in power by that time. There can be no reasonable doubt at all about that. It may be the most earnest desire of hon. Members to continue in existence, but they are subject to the statutory Regulations.

However that may be, there is no doubt at all that this Government will be at an end long before then. Whatever Government be in power, it is most desirable that they should be brought up with a short term, so to speak, and that the House should decide whether or not these powers are to be continued. My right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary may be sitting on this side of the House and may be very glad to see how these powers are operating and whether in the public interest they should at that time be put to an end.

I am sure that the whole Committee will regard this Amendment as one of real substance. I am not going to follow my right hon. Friend opposite in his most interesting speculation as to the life of the existing Administration. I think he is a little bit confusing the life of a Government with the life of a Parliament. The two things are by no means necessarily coterminous. The Amendment in principle simply says that there shall be some definite date—whether it be 1922 or 1923 or another date is a point on which my right hon. Friend does not feel at all strong—when these powers shall come to an end. I am quite certain that not merely the Committee, but the country outside will test the sincerity of this Bill by the willingness of the Government to accept this Amendment. It is a test Amendment. Are the Government really in earnest in desiring to bring these Ministries to a conclusion at the earliest possible date? I accept most fully all that has been said by my right hon. Friend as to the necessity for the liquidation now proceeding to be brought to a conclusion, but I submit very strongly that the Government will be judged and that their purpose will be judged by their willingness to accept this Amendment, which I desire very strongly to support.

I wonder whether my hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Marriott) realises—I am sure he does—that the Ministry of Munitions, besides having to clear up contracts and accounts, includes the Disposal Board, which still has tens, even hundreds, of millions of pounds worth of goods unsold? If a limit be put by in this Amendment upon the time during which the proposed other Departments can exercise these new powers, it will hamper the Government by limiting the time within which these goods can be sold. Take the wool situation. I believe that there are 2,250,000 bales of wool held under the Disposal Board. You have to take into consideration the wishes of the Australian Government as to time and price of disposal. Are my right hon. Friend who moved the Amendment and the hon. Gentleman who supported it going to tie the hands of the Government with regard to time of sale of that wool? If they do, they may throw it on an unfavourable market, and this will cause this country and Australia to lose a great deal of money? There are other raw materials, such as leather or even metals, to which the same argument applies. There is now a large quantity of disused stores in the hands of the Disposal Board, to the value of £200,000,000 or £300,000,000. I say, as one who has been engaged in trade all his life, that you cannot put a limit to the time within which unsaleable goods have to be sold. If you do you will slaughter them and bring an enormous loss on the public. I hope the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will explain later on what he proposes to do with regard to the Disposal Board, apart from the accounts branch. Certainly, if the Amendment were carried, and I shall oppose it, I can see a very large loss falling on the Government by their hands being tied by a time limit with regard to the disposal of war stores and raw materials, which prudence demands that they should nurse and sell gradually and as favourable opportunities arise—often unforeseen.

It will be always open to Parliament to revise the date, even if a date be put into the Bill.

I cannot agree with that argument. I believe no arrangement has been made as to the limit of date within which the fighting services are to throw out the goods which they do do not want. The Mesopotamian expedition and the expedition in the North of India have caused stores to be kept back by the fighting services which otherwise might have been handed over to the Disposal Board. There are still, probably, large blocks of stores which sooner or later must come in for disposal. The point made by the hon. Gentleman therefore is, I submit, valueless, unless the Government be prepared to say to the fighting services, "You must not hand over to the Disposal Board any more goods for the defunct Ministry of Munitions to sell, after the next six months." Who is going to sell such disused goods if not the Ministry of Munitions in its dispersed form of existence? So, how about the proposed time limit?

I do not know whether it will be absolutely in order, but I want to ask my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary if he can tell us the numbers now, respectively, of the two Departments that are to come to an end, and how many are to be transferred to existing Departments? My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions was kind enough to give the numbers that are to be transferred, but he did not give the number in the Department at present. My hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel L. Wilson) did the same thing, but he did not give us the number in the Department at present. I am anxious to get both, because I want to see what this Bill actually means.

I do not think there will be very much value in giving the numbers at the moment, because they are only slightly in excess of those I gave. The transfer is arranged to take place in about ten days' time and the numbers at present are only a very few more than the numbers I gave my hon. Friend.

That is what I wanted to get at. This cessation really means that we are doing away with my two hon. Friends sitting on that Bench—I hope that they will get other and more distinguished posts—but we are not doing away with any of these officials. We are transferring the whole of these staffs, as far as I can see, indefinitely to other Departments. Therefore, we are not practically going to reduce the expenditure at all. I have asked the question, and I have now got the reply. I think it is very unsatisfactory.

There are one or two practical difficulties in the way of accepting this Amendment. Some branches of the work must continue for a very long time. For instance, there is the Transport Department of the Ministry of ship- ping, which has to do with the transport of troops and so forth all over the world. Before the War that work was done from the Admiralty. During the War it was managed by the Ministry of Shipping, and now it is to become a permanent part of the work of the Board of Trade. Then there are sums which have to be collected over a period of years, and that work would be interfered with if a fixed date were placed in the Clause. I am not surprised that this question has been raised. To a man who is not familiar with business, this would seem a very important point, but I am surprised that my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) should have wanted to put into a Bill what he would never apply to his own business. It is perfectly impossible to fix a definite date for the conclusion of a liquidation. My right hon. Friend must remember the time of the Baring crisis in the autumn of 1890. Baring's was a toy-shop compared with the business with which we are now dealing. The guarantors had a fixed term of three years allowed them. When that period expired they had to go on with their guarantees, and they were not released until four years after the crash, and then a company had to be formed for the collection and liquidation of the assets that had not been realised. Here you have a business in which we are handling, in one form or another, or in which we have handled, sums that go somewhere into the neighbourhood of £1,000,000,000. It is impossible to put down any period, say, two or three years hence, when the whole of the consequences arising from that liquidation can be said to be at an end.

With regard to what was said by the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson), I am as anxious as he is to see these staffs disappear, but he must remember that the staff engaged in liquidation can disappear only as liquidation progresses. If you reduce your staffs before liquidation has progressed a good deal further, you will lose a great deal more money than you will gain. Owing to a very natural and proper pressure exercised in the course of last year, there is no doubt that the staffs dealing with these matters were reduced to danger point, and there has been great difficulty in effecting the proper examinations and checks that are necessary in the multifarious transactions that come before the liquidator of these contracts. I would remind the Committee that, after all, they have a more potent engine in their hands than the putting of a date in this Bill. They have two Departments, the Treasury and the Board of Trade, which they can attack continually, and they can follow up those Departments by questions in this House and by Debates, just as much as they like, and so may keep in touch with the progress of the liquidation. If my experience is worth anything, the two Ministers responsible will always regard the staffs working on these subjects as excrescences which they will be as keen to-get rid of as anyone in this House can be. I suggest seriously to the Committee that such work as that of the Transport Department of the Ministry of Shipping it is impossible to bring to an end, and it is impracticable to put down a date beyond which you say that these functions shall not be continued.

I was rather surprised that my right hon. Friend should have cited, as he did, the example of the Barings. That is exactly the example we want him to follow. They were given three years. If the date of 1st January, 1922, were put into this Bill that would leave a margin of more than three years since the War, and then if another year was required it could no doubt be obtained by the sanction of Parliament on a case for it being made out. I cannot understand the example the right hon. Gentleman has given. It appears that the Board of Trade are to have control of the moving of troops about the world. That is a very curious position. In the old days the Admiralty did it, and I understand that by an adjustment the War Office paid the Admiralty. Now the work is to be done by a civil Department. In other, words, you have purely military expenditure going into a civil Department, the Board of Trade, and we do not know how the business is to be adjusted. I think that is rather a bad system to make permanent. I do not want to delay the passing of this Bill, but I think two of the points raised by my right hon. Friend displayed rather serious defects.

I am afraid that the country will read the speech of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Baldwin) with considerable disappointment. It may be inevitables but the result seems to be that this Bill is not going to do anything at all, or rather that the practical effect is not to be very considerable. I understood my right hon. Friend to say that we cannot hope for any reduction of staff.

Then we cannot hope for any reduction of staff. The whole thing will go on very much as it is going on now, and this Bill is merely a sort of sacrifice to popular opinion. I think my right hon. Friend would be well advised to accept the Amendment. It is very likely true that in the result he may require an extension of time, but then the Minister who comes to Parliament will have to make out his case for an extension. That is a very different proposition from continuing the powers indefinitely and trusting to the effect of question and answer in this House. I am glad my right hon. Friend thinks that question and answer are so effective a weapon. I am sure it is a great nuisance to the Ministers. I remember enough of my feelings in my very short official career to sympathise very heartily from that point of view, but whether it produces an effect on those whom it is sought to affect, namely, the people who are actually transacting the business in the Department, depends entirely on the nature of the Department in question. I think it would be a far more effective check for the House to be able to say, "No, you shall not have these powers unless you can show that you have made every possible effort to wind up these Ministries, and that you are making every possible effort to do so." That would be an effective check. If we leave the matter to the ordinary play of question and answer I cannot think that we shall have an effective check. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether the Government would lose anything seriously. If at the end of the three years, or whatever time is fixed, they have to produce another Bill, it would not be a very serious matter. They may be able to meet the emergency by means of the Expiring Laws Continuance Act. In any event they will have to make out their case in Parliament, and that will be a great safeguard.

I join in the appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider the Government's attitude, and on this ground: It makes all the difference on whose shoulders you put the onus of proof, If you put the onus on the Government there is a very wide distinction between that and leaving the onus on private Members to prove their case in two or three years' time. Everybody who has had experience in this House knows how the private Member is always handicapped in a matter of this kind, compared with the Government Department. The House is always ready to accept reasonable proposals made by a Government Department if there is a real case for them. I cannot see that my right hon. Friend loses anything. I agree entirely with what the Noble Lord has said as to the effect on the psychology of the country. A week or two ago I heard the late Leader of the Unionist party address a large meeting in which he elicited rapturous cheers by saying that the Ministry of Shipping and the Ministry of Munitions were to go. It now appears that the main result of their going is that two or three hon. Gentlemen and right hon. Gentlemen on the front Bench are to go, and that apart from that there is to be very little difference. I think my right hon. Friend would reassure all that body of public opinion if he could, at very little sacrifice to the convenience of the Government, accept the Amendment, altering the date as far as he reasonably thinks fit to go. To refuse the Amendment seems unreasonable.

I would be quite willing to accept as the date 1st January, 1924, which will give 5 years and 2 months from the date of the Armistice. Surely that would allow plenty of time for carrying out the liquidation in a proper manner? It would be easy for the then Government to come to the House and say, "We find we have not been able to do the work we had undertaken, and we ask for an extension of time." The House would then deal with the matter. My right hon. Friend says there are question and answer. They are absolutely useless. You get nothing but an official answer; the matter is dropped and you hear nothing more about it. If you attempt after 11 o'clock, on the Motion for the Adjournment or something of that sort, to make some remarks, you are told you do not know anything about it, that you must give a definite case—which, of course, you cannot possibly find—and that then the matter will be investigated. Of course, I remember the Baring crisis, but that was a very different thing from this. In the first place it was very much smaller. What were the liabilities? They were in connection with the Buenos Ayres Water Company. Because there was a financial crisis in the Argentine Republic it was impossible to sell what were merely bits of paper. The holders were bound to wait until the Argentine Republic had become more prosperous. It was by waiting and nursing the assets until prosperity returned again to the Argentine that the Baring Brothers came round. That is a totally different thing. We have commodities here. What the Government have to sell is not bits of paper which may or may not come round, but commodities and perishable commodities which do not improve by keeping. Reference has been made to wool. It would have been far better for the community and for the Government if they had sold their wool a year ago. We should have got all our clothes cheaper, and the Government would have got a better price for their wool. By hanging on to their wool they have only played into the hands of the woollen manufacturers and have had to take a lesser price now. I have had some experience of selling things in my time, and nothing can be more stupid than what we call in the City missing your market, by hanging on for a price which you know you cannot get. When you have a large amount of things to sell, you must cut your loss, and the man who succeeds is the man who takes a lower price at the time being but eventually finds that, having sold, prices follow him and he has really made a very good stroke of business. I therefore hope my right hon. Friend will accept the 1st January, 1924, or I would even put his own date in as long as the date is reasonable.

In supporting the principle of the Amendment, I would like to suggest that whatever year is fixed, the date should be the 31st March, so that it should be coincident with the financial year. The reason I have risen is owing to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill in regard to the permanent transfer to the Board of Trade of the transportation of troops overseas. That is a most serious decision to have come to, and it is a decision against which I wish to take the first opportunity of protesting. It was always done by the Admiralty, and it was one of the few opportunities the Admiralty and the War Office had of working in together, a co-operation which it is most necessary to encourage. It has always worked well, and I cannot imagine why a civilian Department like the Board of Trade should have in the future the responsibility of transporting troops from different garrisons and fortresses throughout the Empire. I profoundly regret the decision of the Government in this matter, and I wish to take this opportunity of showing by my vote that I regard it I as a retrograde step.

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out the words "first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-three," and to insert instead thereof the words "thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-four, unless Parliament shall otherwise determine."

With those words in, I think it will be very difficult indeed for the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to resist the general feeling of the Committee.

I quite recognise the sincerity with which the Committee holds the view that has been put forward on the question of dates, but I think that perhaps the best thing to do would be for my right hon. Friend opposite to let his Amendment go on the Paper to-night for the Report stage to-morrow and thus give me time to consider it. There are a good many questions involved in it. It is quite impossible for me to commit myself now to this, because it might cover some point which it would be quite impossible for me to give way upon. The matter is not as simple as it looks, but I will, between now and to-morrow, look into this and do my very best to meet the right hon. Gentleman, and if it be necessary in the opinion of the Government to make any exception or to leave any particular subject outside the date, I shall then be able to tell. If my right hon. Friend will withdraw the Amendment, I will agree to do that.

I wish my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to understand what is the general sense of the Committee on this question, and if we go to a Division on this, we shall vote for the Amendment, because, having listened to all the arguments, it seems to me that the Government are protected in every way by the further Amendment which has been proposed.

I am anxious to meet my right hon. Friend in every way, but those Members who are present have heard the Debate and know what has taken place. If we defer this till the Report stage to-morrow there may be a great many Members in the House who have not heard the Debate to-day, and others may have gone away. I would suggest that the Amendment moved by my right hon. Friend the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) be accepted now and that if on the Report stage to-morrow the Government find that it requires further amendment they shall then propose their further Amendment, and of course we shall do our best to accept it. I think that is a much more satisfactory way than that proposed by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury.

I am sorry I cannot do that. I think my offer was a very fair one, and I make it in perfect good faith.

May I make an offer to my right hon. Friend? I will withdraw all my other Amendments on the Paper if he will accept this.

My right hon. Friend has done his best to meet us, I quite recognise, and I am sure my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London agrees.

If the Amendment goes down as first Order, instead of being taken at Eleven to-morrow night, I think we should have a much better opportunity of examining the merits of the proposal in the light of what my right hon. Friend may then have to say. I will now ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment to proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, to leave out Sub-section (2).

Perhaps my right hon. Friend will inform me what is the necessity for this Sub-section. I understand the Order in Council is going to be produced, and possibly this Amendment would not be necesary if the Government would accept a new Clause I have on the Paper requiring that Orders in Council under the Act shall be laid before Parliament as soon as possible after they are made, and shall be made effective only by a Resolution of both Houses.

I confess, with regard to this Sub-section, that it is a difficult thing for a layman to understand, but I am assured by my legal advisers that these words are essential in order that actions that are pending against the Departments may lie.

I will withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Clause starts with the words, "Any Order in Council made under Section six." Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any undertaking when that Order will be laid, so that hon. Members may have an opportunity which is adequate for seeing its terms, and, if necessary, discussing it?

The Order in Council is in course of preparation now, because it is essential that the work should be continuous, and I hope it will be issued on Thursday, but whether it will be possible to lay it before the Adjournment I am not quite sure.

Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that we have got to pass the Third Reading of the Bill before we have a glimpse of the Order in Council which explains the Bill?

Yes, that is so.

Question put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 2.—(Short Title.)

This Act may be cited as the Ministries of Munitions and Shipping (Cessation) Act, 1921.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

With reference to the Title of the Bill and to see whether it is a true Title, may we have any figures of the reduction of staffs which is going to be effected? It seems to me that there has been no reduction of staffs, but merely a transfer to other Departments. Could the right hon. Gentleman give us any sort of estimate whether there will be a reduction of staffs within the present financial year?

That hardly arises on this Clause.

Question put, and agreed to.

NEW CLAUSE.—(Provision as to Orders in Council.)

"All Orders in Council under this Act made after the Thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-one, shall be laid before Parliament as soon as may be after they are made and shall not continue in force after the expiration of seven days from the time when they are so laid unless a Resolution is passed by both Houses providing for the continuance thereof."—[ Sir F. Banbury. ]

Brought up, and read the First time.

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

I put down the Clause originally without the words "after the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-one," but I am moving them in now because my right hon. Friend has told us he is going to lay the Order in Council on the Table on Thursday. Consequently, if my new Clause is carried, it would only be valid for seven days unless there was a Resolution passed by both Houses, and we do not want to hamper the Government to that extent, so I have added the words in question, so that the new Clause will apply to Orders in Council made after the 31st March of this year. The House really ought to keep control over the proceedings of the Government, and this method of allowing Government, by Orders in Council, to do things which are unknown to and not authorised by Parliament is quite wrong. It may have been right during the -War, but it certainly is not right now. I think the Government should accept this Amendment, which will not hamper them in the least.

I am sorry to appear to be always putting my right hon. Friend off, but this Clause does make a very substantial alteration, and I should like an opportunity of considering it. I would like him to put it down on the Report stage. It is extremely technical, and I should like time to find out what the effect of it might be.

Those of us who have been in this House for any time know that the control of the House over these Orders in Council is very vague and illusory. It is quite true that they are exempted business, and that we are entitled to discuss them up to any hour—that the 11 o'clock rule does not operate—but if anyone has an objection to an Order in Council, as soon as the discussion starts he finds that the House empties, and he is counted out. I think some alteration of this kind is desirable.

May I point out that I have provided for this, because under the terms of my Clause the Government have got to keep a House?

That is exactly the reason why I am supporting this new Clause. I think such a change is necessary.

I am quite willing to agree with the suggestion of my' right hon. Friend (Mr. Baldwin) on the understanding that he will consider the matter, and I ask leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

NEW CLAUSE.—(Financial Statement.)

The Order in Council shall provide for the preparation in such detail as the Treasury may approve of a financial statement of the transactions of the Ministries of Munitions and Shipping up to the date of transference and for the publication thereof, and at the end of the period of transference for the preparation and publication of a similar statement in respect of the transactions of the Departments or organisations to which any such property, rights, liabilities, powers, or duties are transferred.—[ Major Barnes. ]

Brought up, and read the First time.

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

I should like to submit this Clause to the right hon. Gentleman on the same terms as the last one, that is, that he should promise to give this matter same consideration, and let me put it down on the Report stage. I do not think it is a Clause which really takes much consideration, because it is only asking him to pursue a course which I think he probably will pursue, and at all events it is a very businesslike course to take. We have two powerful Ministries putting up their shutters, and, it may be, almost doing a moonlight flit, and, as far as I know, leaving no trace of their new address. In other words, we are not going to have any record as to what has taken place under these two very powerful Ministries which have had almost despotic powers, and have controlled the affairs of the country to a very great extent. I understand that an official history of the Ministry of Munitions has been prepared, or is in course of preparation, at an expenditure of something like £12,000, but nobody is to be allowed to see that; it is to be sealed up and only opened when the next great war comes on. That may be necessary on account of some matters contained in that history, but it does seem to me that the House and the country are entitled to some statement, as to the nature of the financial transactions which have taken place under these two Ministries, and what this Clause asks is that an Order made in Council shall provide for the preparation of a financial statement of the transactions of the Ministries of Munitions and Shipping up to the date of transference. That is a common-sense and businesslike course to take.

The two Ministries are coming to an end, their responsibilities are disappearing, their duties and liabilities are being broken up and distributed, and, whatever may be done in the future, these Ministries cannot be held responsible for it. The preparation of such a statement as this would be a fair thing to the Ministries, because it may very well be that in the course of the next year or two things may be done by these Departments which may be laid to the door of the defunct Ministries. As a rule, we say nothing but good of the dead, but that is not always observed, and one would not like to see a situation arise in which charges were made against these Ministries which it would have been impossible to make if there had been in existence a statement, a sort of balance sheet or final inventory taken at the time they passed out of existence. Again, it would be only fair to the two Departments which are going to take charge, because the converse may very well happen. It may be that in the future these Departments may be blamed for matters for which they are not responsible, things which have been handed on to them by the Ministry, and charges of that kind could be disproved only if there were in existence some such statement as I ask for. As far as the Treasury is concerned, I cannot but think they will have some sort of statement prepared. They are, as it were, a sort of legatee of the deceased bodies, they are coming into the estate, and as a precaution they will have some sort of statement made showing what is the state of affairs when these Ministries come to an end. Further, the country is entitled to some record of what has taken place. There may be statements in course of preparation which will show exactly the extent of the operations of these two Ministries, and if such statements are in existence the Minister will no doubt tell me, and I shall be able to withdraw this Amendment; but if they are not in existence, then I submit this Clause to the Minister's consideration. It will be noticed that I have asked in this Clause only for a statement to be prepared "in such detail as the Treasury may approve." I do not wish to bind the Treasury to give any sort of detailed; statement which they may think unnecessary; the character of the statement is left entirely to their discretion. I cannot very well see on what grounds the Minister can refuse to give the House and the country the knowledge which they would obtain under this Clause.

I am very glad to assure my hon. and gallant Friend that the particulars he wants have appeared and will, appear. The complete financial transaction of the Ministries in question up to the end of the present financial year are all embodied in their annual appropriation accounts, which go to the Public Accounts Committee for a very thorough overhauling, and all details can be found there; together with them there goes the Report of the Comptroller and AuditorGeneral, and all of this is published for the information of this House. The raw materials trading accounts have already been published up to the end of the financial year 31st March, 1919, in' Command Paper 788 of last year, and other trading accounts are contained in Command Paper 1062 of the same year. A further volume of trading accounts carrying the business up to the end of this financial year is now in course of pre- paration, and will be issued when ready, and for the future exactly the same process will be repeated with regard to the transactions under the head of the two Votes in which these two moribund Departments will appear in the next financial year. The whole of the figures are there, and I hope that my hon. and gallant Friend will be satisfied.

I think my hon. and gallant Friend made quite a good suggestion, and I do not think it is quite met by the reply of the right hon. Gentleman that these figures appear in the ordinary accounts to be rendered to Parliament. Might I suggest that, even if he cannot accept the Clause which my hon. and gallant Friend has moved, he should continue, at some interval suitable to himself and to the business of Parliament, his Command Papers, so that we may know how the liquidation—

I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

Unemployment

5.0 P.M.

I had given notice of an Amendment for the rejection of the Bill. This Amendment was put down to secure an opportunity to return to the discussion of the position relating to unemployment. The House is about to take another adjournment and some of us on this side of the House have on several such occasions returned to the subject, and I do not think the Minister of Labour will raise any objection to that course of action, or that he will in any way shirk the case as it is to be presented. Last autumn, when the House was about to adjourn, at Christmas, when it was about to adjourn, and now, as we are approaching spring and about to adjourn, this question has been raised, and on each Adjournment we find that the unemployment situation has become worse, and is far worse to-day than it was when we had first to raise it in this House following the last General Election. I ask the attention of the House to what is the outlook at this moment, and I hope that in response to the questions which will be addressed to him my right hon. Friend (Dr. Macnamara) will tell us what is the estimate of his Department, what view has been formed by his Department, of the prospects that lie ahead of us in regard to employment during the course of the year. So far as we can be guided by figures and the usual trade indications, we are faced with a problem which increases in complexity as it increases in degree.

I find from the last Official Returns, circulated during the past day or two, that on what is termed the live register there were registered as unemployed last month 1,280,000 persons. There are recorded as being on short time 744,000 persons, and in addition to these two groups, either wholly unemployed or only partially unemployed, there are admittedly hundreds of thousands of other workers who are out of work, but not officially registered in any way whatever. Behind these figures there certainly lies a great amount of suffering, poverty, hunger, tears and distress known only to those of the poorer classes whose lot in life it is to endure the severest distresses from unemployment. If steps can be taken by this House, either by legislation or by administration, it is surely the duty of the House to turn to this subject and give to it whatever attention we can. It will be a sorry day for the country and for the Government if any Government having the responsibility of the government of this country should have to admit that nothing more can be done. The question then is what can be done and, if nothing, then frankly an admission of that fact ought to be made and employers and workers will know they are thrown back upon their own resources, and will have to provide as best they can some safeguard against these difficulties of unemployment. The last step taken by the Government was to provide some little measure of relief. That was when we dealt, in the beginning of this Session, with the extension of the Insurance Act. But what has happened since that Act was passed has been this, that with this enormous increase in the number of unemployed workers, the reserve fund for unemployed purposes of the trade unions have either been severely diminished or they have disappeared altogether. It is no doubt known to the Minister of Labour that many trade unions have had to stop payments completely so far as unemployment benefit goes; others of them are doing something by means of levies by means of getting in extra moneys so as to maintain the payment. But I think the net result is this, that so far as the workers have got additional benefit from the recent extension or improvement in the Insurance Act, that has been much more than balanced in the way of losses suffered by the workers because of the exhaustion of trade union funds. So that financially this recent improvement in the law has not placed the worker in any better position so far as the conditions of life are concerned.

I am sure that all of us in the, House will agree that the solution of the problem does not lie in giving relief, in extensions of Insurance Acts. The need of that device of insurance was rather meant to provide for men who incidentally suffered a state of unemployment in the normal conditions of trade. It was not intended as a cure or method for dealing with the problem as it presents itself in its accentuated form to-day. Therefore the solution lies in finding work. We have heard recently in this House statements from the President of the Board of Trade as to the attempts made by the Government to hasten some return of our export trade. I wish we could hear much more than the House has been told. We have pressed more than once from this side of the House to be taken fully into the confidence of the House or into the confidence of the Department in order that we may know clearly what is being done in order to find out whether it is practicable to do something in the hope of establishing some system of insurance or credit that would assist a return of trade. Is it that, having examined that device, this plan, or scheme, men of experience, great bankers, financiers, controllers of great insurance undertakings, have come to the conclusion that nothing is to be hoped for from a path in that direction? The House really ought to be told whether anything is practicable. If it is practicable, I think we have endured too long delay already in attempts being made to use the banks and the insurance companies and to use the resources of our financial houses for the purpose of assisting the return of our foreign trade. This country depends upon the re-establishment of its foreign trade. A population so enormous must depend upon the extent of its manufactures and the general conduct of its internal trade and business and upon the degree of the exports it can send to other parts of the world. You cannot get back here the necessaries of life, the foods we need, either in abundance or in variety, unless our export trade is maintained. Whatever was changed by the War that fact was not changed, and we are faced with it now. Pending the normal and ordinary return through the usual agencies of that point of restored international and export trade, what I am pressing now is the question as to whether it is practicable for the Government to do something on the basis of establishing systems of insurance and credits which will at least assist, and I say if it cannot be done we ought frankly to be told it cannot be done and not left in any doubt at all as to what is the outlook of both the employer and employed.

I do not want to use a mere debating argument when I say that on the outbreak of the War the whole country was faced with a very serious financial problem. The great banks and the State had to act together. It is not for me to explain how, but I think it is clear that either the one or the other would have gone under, and a very serious financial problem would have been raised had there not been some kind of understanding and joint action between the State and the great financial houses. If it could be done at that time, faced as the country was with the dread consequences of war, and with the sudden dislocation of our internal trade and our export trade as well, why cannot it be done now? Indeed, it seems to me that now, having emerged from the conditions of war, we are in a far better position to face the problem of assisting trade by. some artificial financial arrangement than we were on the outbreak of war. The Government has attempted to do something with regard to our home trade. Pending the return of our export trade by either one means or the other, the question is, can we do more at home to provide productive, remunerative, useful, and beneficial work to a degree larger than has yet been attempted? On the last occasion when figures were given by the right hon. Gentleman as to what had been done under the different headings, it appeared to many of us on this side of the House that it had been a very poor return in comparison with the enormous number of people seeking opportunities for useful work. I doubt whether one in twenty of the unemployed has had any opportunity whatever of finding work under any or all of the schemes that have been made available. I shall be happy to learn that the return has been better than that. But I think, roughly, the position is that something over 100,000 people altogether have been found work to some degree or other—to actually what degree we have not complete information. That is less than one out of every twenty of the total number unemployed. We believe on this side of the House that sufficient has not been attempted, that we are allowing useful and willing work to go to waste which might be skilfully applied and properly organised for productive and even for remunerative purposes.

It will be for the Minister of Labour to explain, as I hope he will, how far these different schemes have been carried. For instance, one would like to know fully what has been the net result of the setting aside of sums of money wherewith to assist local authorities, municipal bodies, and so on, in organising and carrying on various schemes for employment. I think, as yet, very little of the £3,000,000 spoken of, £1,000,000 of which has been actually granted by this House, has so far been devoted to the purpose for which it was intended. I suggest we cannot take this matter so much at our ease—that the money made available ought to have been used to a further extent than it has been—and we would like to know whether the blame of this slow pace rests with the Government or with the local authorities. The wealth and the service that can be expended on many forms of work are there, the men are willing, and yet so far, with the exception of the figures I have given, the policy has not been carried beyond the point of relief. Supposing we attempt nothing more than has yet been done, and that in three months, say, the eve of our next Adjournment at Whitsuntide, or later, we are faced with even a worse situation, as we have been on the eve of every Adjournment for a long time past, is it still to be the policy of the Government to attempt nothing greater in respect of what I call the organisation of work? There are those who look upon the organisation of this kind of work as waste. They say that men are not fit for the work they might be put to. I will express my view frankly in a figure as well as I can. We demanded a level of 40s. a week for men who are unemployed and unable to get work. We said that was the lowest figure to which they were entitled as a sum towards their maintenance. I can well believe that, just as the Government was driven to the level of 20s. a week, as this problem gets worse, and as the reserve forces of the workers are worn away, the Government will be driven to the figure of 40s., and it is that kind of pressure which eventually, I believe, will compel the organisation of work which has not yet been attempted. It will be far better for the Government to do this thing willingly than to do it under compulsion. I refuse to believe that it cannot be done. It is not for want of knowing how; the Government know as well as anybody else. I would sooner myself pay a man as wages 40s. for two days' work, even if it were indifferent work, for it would be work that would leave at least some good result, than pay 20s., as we are now doing, for doing nothing at all.

That, I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Ministry of Labour, is the angle from which this problem must be faced. His Ministry was in the main, I think, intended to devote a large part of its skill and time to this great problem of organising our service, and opening up avenues for employment of a productive, remunerative, serviceable and lasting character. His Department was not intended merely to preside over the differences that may arise from time to time between employers and employed. By that I hope I am not under-valuing the enormous industrial and social service rendered by his Department, which must, I think, grow more and more in national importance and national service as this Ministry comes more and more to handle and solve these industrial problems. There is one aspect of this unemployment difficulty which has not yet been sufficiently emphasised. It is the effect which intensified unemployment is having more and more, day by day, upon wages. Taking wages as a separate part of our general industrial problem, there are those who hold that wages are too high. There may be cases where, through changes in the system of working, through a particular group of workers in any exceptionally favourable position, exceptionally high wages have been easily got. I am not denying there may be such cases, but I deny that, in the main, the level of wages is far, if at all, above the level of the increased cost of living.

That being so, I want especially to put the case of the lower and lowest paid section of workers, who, curiously enough, are usually the first to suffer a reduction of wages in a depressed market. I cannot understand the policy of the Minister of Labour in regard to these sections of workers, for instance, who either are- or ought to be protected by the machinery of the Trade Boards Act. Members will recall that such an Act was passed with, I think, universal approval as a non-Party Measure, because of the proofs adduced as to the evils suffered by men, women and children in what we call the sweated trades of England—trades of which Englishmen should be really ashamed. At any rate, their feeling of distress in such a matter must go to the length of wishing to lift those trades by the lever of the law if they cannot do so themselves. Let me give a definite instance, which has only reached me to-day, of how this operates. An agreement for a minimum wage of 32s. a week for adult women has been entered into between the National Federation of Women Workers and the sack and bag merchants in London. Here, let me say that 2,000,000 people are employed in a variety of industries, occupations or trades in this country, the names of which scarcely ever enter our heads. We think of labour in the terms of great communities of workers like railway workers, men in the building trades, men in the mines, and so on, but there is an enormous number of workers engaged in a great variety of essential occupations of whose conditions we scarcely ever think. These sack and bag makers entered into this arrangement with the employers for this wage of 32s. for women. Now the employers are beginning to break away from that minimum wage, and one firm, in consequence pf this agreement being entered into, has discharged the women, and has begun to take on girls to do the work at lesser rates. Another firm is now taking on women at 15s. a week—women driven by hunger and the necessity of getting work, and not in the position to make a bargain. There is no such thing as a contract between employer and employed. When the driving force is the force of hunger, the employer is the only one to the bargain. He can exact almost whatever terms he chooses, and, instead of 32s., which the law can enforce, and ought to enforce in such a case, you come down to a level of 15s. This is the difficulty, and I think it is a disgrace. The better type of employer, who wants to keep a higher level of employment, finds he is in competition with the worse type of employer, and has to give way. It is very often the case that the minority of employers of what you might call the worst type, the less public-spirited or the more selfish employers, pull down to a lower level the better type of employer who would desire to see better conditions. In such a case the law must come in to make all conform to the level, and I think the facts as reported to me prove that it is essential to have the machinery of the law, under the name of the Trade Boards Act, to uniformise the rates of pay as agreed to in this instance, and not allow individual employers to break away, and consequently cause other employers to make the conditions of their workers worse.

I want to submit two or three other definite points which, I think, properly come under the head of the general subject. I am not sure the right hon. Gentleman or his Department can answer for the policy of the Government with regard to my next point, but I would like him, if he could, to answer for the Government regarding this extraordinary policy relating to the position of married women as covered by what is known as the Washington Convention. Article 3 of that Convention declared that a woman told that this is a Session in which we may expect little legislation. I think on. a matter of this kind, vital to the future health and welfare of the race, a little of our time might very well be provided before this Session of Parliament concludes. There is nothing of more outstanding importance to the health and happiness of the community than the liberation of the women and the children from the trials they have had to suffer in this country in past years. Another question I should like to put as to the absence of legislation: What are the reasons which have induced the Government privately to decide that it could not give effect to the Washington Convention? There are very many other points, really, on that subject that hon. Members might very well press, but I do not myself want to take up more time. I do trust we shall have some reassuring reply on the two points I have submitted.

What may seem to be a comparatively small matter, but is still a point of substance touching the question of personal freedom, I want to refer to—that is the question of the treatment of the insurance officers who some time ago lost their work and were thrown out of employment because they had even dared to join the Guild of Insurance Officials. We thought a few years ago that we were long removed from any questioning of the right of either employers or employed to choose whether they would or would not join an association for the purpose of dealing with their wage contracts and their business relationships. But it would seem there is one powerful company which has thought proper to deny the right to its employés to join an organisation so mildly described as a guild. The right of the ordinary manual worker to join a trade union in these days dare not be challenged by any employer. I have not heard of one for many years; who has dared to interfere with the right of the humblest employé joining a trade union and combining for the purpose of effecting improvement in his condition. But these were men standing somewhat above the rank of the ordinary wage-earner; black-coated workers, as they are termed, who are expected to exhibit all the attributes of honesty, character, presence, good address, and all that sort of thing; yet they are denied by their employers the right to act within their organisation of insurance officials. This point, I know the right hon. Gentleman opposite, the Minister of Labour, has not been unmindful of.

Is the right hon. Gentleman referring to the General Accident Assurance Company?

Yes. I was observing that the right hon. Gentleman opposite has not been unmindful of the facts on both sides of this question, and he has given them some attention. Now, as everything seems to have failed to produce a settlement between the parties, and as I understand the representatives of the company in question absolutely decline to deal with this organisation or meet the representatives of the men, why has not the right hon. Gentleman exhausted his power and used to the full the authority he has to at least institute an inquiry into the actual points at dispute? The Minister of Labour, I am told, has been asked on several occasions to set up a court of inquiry in accordance with the provisions of the Industrial Courts Act. Up to the present he has refused to do so. That Act, as I understand, provides that a court of inquiry may be set up to examine into the causes and circumstances of a dispute existing or apprehended, and a trade dispute is defined as any dispute or difference between employers and workmen, or between workmen and workmen connected with employment or unemployment, or the terms of the employment or the conditions of labour of any person. These words seem to me to be so comprehensive as not to leave out any kind of conceivable dispute no matter to what cause it may be due. Even if the words do not bring themselves clearly within the terms of the Act. I think there is a principle at stake, the issue of right or wrong, a principle so great as to justify a departure in this instance of going to any lengths in the powers of the Department or right to investigate the conditions, and see if pressure could not here be exercised upon the employers to do the right thing. I hope, therefore, we shall have some statement as to why these powers have not been fully used.

I would like, finally, to refer to the general theme on which I started. The right hon. Gentleman was not in his present position at the beginning of 1919, but he will well remember that there was then called into existence a thoroughly representative body of employers and workmen. The Government had been formed. The elections were over. The national mind was turned towards the great task of reconstruction. We all knew what was wanted. We also knew how difficult the task was, but the national desire—not merely the labour desire—was to produce so far as possible a state of peace and steadiness in industry, and labour was invited by the Government, as were the employers, to come together and we came together, and in this work no one did more than did my right hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. Henderson). He and others laboured for a few months, and finally there was produced a document of recommendations. Let me first say that when the Government called this great representative body together, there presided at the first meeting, I well remember, the right hon. Gentleman the present President of the Board of Trade, then the Minister of Labour (Sir R. Horne). The Prime Minister attended that conference. He addressed it. I recall some very powerful protests in regard to certain statements made by the Prime Minister. We appealed as strongly as we could not only at that conference, but to the great organised bodies to give the Government a chance. If I may remind the House these were the words I used in appealing seriously to the conference to give the Government a chance—I refer to the beginning of 1919—to do the work for which we believed it was elected. The conference decided to give it. After many, many meetings there was produced a Report in connection with that industrial conference. The right hon. Gentleman opposite knows how little has resulted from that. I do not say, or imply, that the fault is his, but the responsibility is his now.

For turning over the pages of that Report, and seeing how far it is possible to build upon the foundation that at least was suggested by the Joint Conference which, consisting of a thousand delegates, representatives of employers and workmen, drawn together as a great body. Very little has been done under this head. The Conference dealt with questions relating to wages, hours of work, general conditions of employment, unemployment and its prevention, the efforts to promote co-operation between capital and labour, etc. My firm conviction is that if the Government had given encouragement that was due to that Conference, if it had really treated that document in the spirit of that Conference, then a far better spirit would have been produced as between employers and employed than has been exhibited in the last 18 months. During that time there has developed a great deal of distrust and embitterment. Surely it must be due to the way in which the representative bodies, called in to make suggestions, found themselves ignored till there is no time to do anything. The right hon. Gentleman will know very well if nothing, or very little, has been done on the basis of that Conference, that something yet might be done by means of that Conference, for I think we shall be driven back to the condition of further conferences. I do not believe that we can escape from this state of unemployment in the course of a few months or this year even. I fear it is going to last, and if I could put it to the country, I would feel it were the wiser plan not to face matters in the spirit of the best, but rather to prepare for the worst, for really the present state may last rather longer than a shorter time.

If anything can be done by further conferences, why not again try to get consultation between employers and workers, with the financiers, for there is more than a dual responsibility in regard to these difficulties. I do not find that the right hon. Gentleman exhibits a feeling suggesting that this can be done. He knows as well as others that there have been many conferences, and little seems to have come from them. That is not the fault of the conferences. The conferences have been constructive enough and they have produced, as I believe, practical proposals upon which the Government could work. If there be those who say that these proposals are not good enough, why then, it is their duty to propose something else, and if these are good and not good enough, they must give way to better. If they propose something on which the Government can work even better than the experience of the right hon. Gentleman and his Department can suggest, and if his Department accept the whole responsibility of doing all this constructive work, well and good! I do not say his Department is too small for that, if they care to undertake the work, but we must clearly understand where we are.

The situation need not be described. We know all about it. What we want to know is, does the Government want our assistance any further in connection with the situation? If so, in what form? If it does not want it, is it going to accept the whole responsibility of facing the situation and providing the remedy? One thing we cannot do, we cannot go on allowing things to drift week by week and month by month from bad to worse. That is the position. I have said already that on the eve of every adjournment in this House for at least 9 months the situation has been worse and worse on every separate occasion. I fear when we adjourn for Whitsuntide it will be worse than now as we adjourn for Easter. Faced with these facts, seeing them in the terms of being intimate with the personal sufferings of those who are enduring unemployment, we cannot treat this thing lightly, and I do not believe any Member of this House will do so. Let me therefore say I hope the Government will face this matter in a rather different spirit from the spirit shown in this House. The other night when an appeal was made from these Benches for a little more time to be given to the miners in order that they might compose their differences with the employers and to avoid what we are certain is sure to ensue from the legislative step recently taken by the Government. Again, I do not blame my right hon. Friend for that particular attitude, but I am suggesting that this is the spirit which ought not to be repeated. If the Government is not going to accept the full responsibility to act immediately in these matters then it ought to invite others to take council with it and see if a solution can be found for these awful difficulties.

The latter part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech suggests how easy it is to blame the Government for circumstances which are quite outside its control. For its impotence is really the whole basis of the problem, so far as this House is concerned. The Government, in its wisdom, set up a Labour Ministry, whose function is, when we find ourselves in a state of distress in industry, as at present, a condition likely to be more pronounced in the future, to get us out of our trouble without undue suffering. The real difficulty is that no Government and no conceivable Department of a Government ever could, under any circumstances, help us out of our trouble. We have got too much in the Habit of thinking that the troubles that have come on us through some fault of our own, or through circumstances beyond our control, have only to be handed over to some Department of the Government in order to be put right. I have spoken before on this question, and, as the right hon. Gentleman has to-day repeated the arguments frequently advanced during the last two or three years from those benches, I may be pardoned if I indulge in a little repetition. The right hon. Gentleman accuses some of us—possibly I am among those whom he accuses—of having advocated a policy of low wages as a remedy for unemployment. I wish to repudiate that entirely. I think if the right hon. Gentleman looks back upon what I have said upon this question he will see there has been no advocacy of low wages.

What I have wished to be understood by him and the hon. Members behind him is that we hold very strongly that lower wages, that is to say, a reduced average standard of living, is an inevitable consequence of existing circumstances. We do not deplore those circumstances and that result any less than they do, and I think the right hon. Gentleman will do me the justice to acknowledge that I personally, and many of my friends, have been willing to sacrifice our own interests to save even a small fraction of the distress which is coming upon the working classes of this country. We will continue to do that most willingly, but do not let it be said that therefore we are advocating a lower standard of living. There is no truth in that. We merely wish to insist, and must continue to insist, that inevitably a lower standard of living must come about, and that it may be a period of two, three or even five years before we can hope to get back again to an average standard in any sense better than that we had before the War.

Another portion of the right hon. Gentleman's speech hinted at methods of getting out of the present trouble which, to my mind, are equally futile. He suggested what are practically relief works, although he repudiated the name. The Labour Party Conference also, like him, suggested that certain works of public utility—roads and reservoirs and matters of that sort—might be commenced now instead of being deferred until a future time. The right hon. Gentleman asked where the blame for delay rested in respect to the grants which the Government has made for this purpose—whether it was attributable to the Government Department or to the local authorities. I will ask him to remember this. As a member of a local authority myself—and in this possibly the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me—I think that the first duty of such a member is to regard himself as the trustee of those who elected him to serve. He is the trustee of their money, and not of his own; therefore, in dealing with any problem of local government, either in the ordinary course or under the exceptional circumstances that now exist, he should really see to it and charge himself with the duty of seeing that the money of the ratepayers is spent reasonably and wisely on good objects. It is clear that to undertake great road-making schemes at the present cost of materials and the present rate of wages would be a dereliction of duty on the part of local authorities. We know perfectly well that the cost of these works is inevitably coming down, and it will be very much less in the course of a few months; therefore, it would be false sentiment and a false assumption of charity on the part of the local authority to undertake that work now and to squander the ratepayers' money by paying prices and wages at least double as high as they are sure to be within the next few months. Local authorities, like this House, are only too inclined to regard themselves as charitable institutions, and to pat themselves on the back and say, "How generous we are," when they dispense the money of other people with too free a hand.

The right hon. Gentleman's speech had really to my mind a rather hopeless tone. He made appeals to the Government to act on lines which I have indicated, but he neglected to call attention to perhaps the most hopeful sign we have seen in industry, at any rate, in my time, and that is to the offer which the coalowners have made to the Miners' Federation, an offer under which they undertook, in order to help that particular industry out of the rut of despair into which it has fallen, to give up their profits at any rate for a period. I think that is one of the most hopeful signs of the possibility of dealing with this unemployment question. I have always said and shall continue to say, especially under circumstances so serious as those which prevail to-day, that the duty of finding a way out lies in the first instance with those who are directors of industry rather than with those who are mere wage earners, and as we have to face a very large amount of distress, culminating probably in a severe reduction in the standard of living, compared with that to which we have been accustomed for some few years, it is for the owners, capitalists and employers first to find a way out and, if sacrifices are to be made, they are the people to make them in the first instance. Therefore this movement on the part of the coalowners is to my mind a matter of almost infinite importance. Although in actual practice no one supposes that any coalowner will go short of food or clothing or lodging, yet the fact remains where one has a little capital he can usually manage, even if he does not see any profit, to continue his existence on a modified scale, yet it is the real spirit of this offer that I commend to the right hon. Gentleman. It is proof of a spirit which has never existed in any industry before so far as my experience goes.

Conceive for a moment what it means We have the wage-earning classes at the present time faced with a period of great difficulty and possibly of great privation. My experience of the working classes of this country, both in peace and war, is this, that their patience under appalling conditions is almost incredible, if one thing is present, and that is if they have the knowledge that no one is benefiting by their suffering. We know perfectly well what appalling conditions obtained during the War, and how men had to live under conditions which many of us thought it was utterly impossible for a human being to stand. Yet these same men bore those conditions with the utmost cheerfulness and goodwill, when they' knew that their officers were under exactly the same conditions, whereas in regiments or detachments of troops where officers took a selfish view of their position, and secured for themselves conditions better than those of the men they commanded, those men could never be trusted to stand up against attack. I think the same thing may very well be applied to the conditions obtaining in industry to-day. I believe if the wage earners of this country know perfectly well that those by whom they are employed are suffering, not perhaps to the same extent, but as far as they are capable of suffering under the circumstances of the case, we should not hear of any cry of sedition or any of that appalling discontent among them which exists at the present time, and we might even make some approach to that new world of which the Prime Minister spoke in such hopeful terms.

6.0 P.M.

I rise to take part in this Debate because I sympathise entirely with the remark of the Leader of the Labour party as to the tremendous importance of the question of unemployment. I do not wish to blame the Government or anybody else for the position in which we find ourselves to-day. I think it is the duty of any hon. Member who thinks he can by any form of constructive criticism help to remedy the state of things, to bring that criticism forward. I was proposing to express regret, when I rose, that there was no one on the Front Bench representing the Departments of the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Board of Trade, but I am glad to see that that defect has now been removed. It is essential, if we are to find a remedy for the tremendously bad state of things which obtains with regard to unemployment to-day, that there should be co-ordination between Government Departments. It is no use saying that the whole responsibility for dealing with this great question remains with the Ministry of Labour, because the question of unemployment is mixed up with matters of finance, and the two cannot be divorced. I should like to compare the present time with the condition of affairs that existed about twelve months ago. At that time and the then conditions applied not only to employers but to employed—we had plenty of money in the country, while there was a great shortage of goods. At the present time the opposite is the case. We have an enormous quantity of goods that we cannot ship to countries abroad, but we are very short of money. If we are to find a remedy for the present state of things, we must consider what has brought it about. I would ask the House to go back to what was said 12 months ago, when the last Budget was introduced, about the importance of giving some security of tenure to those who were directing industry, just as much as to those who were engaged in it. I ventured to point out then that the taxation of industry which was being proposed would be certain to bring in its wake unemployment; and that has been the case. We who are engaged in industry, and who, as has been mentioned by the hon. Member who has just sat down, have the first responsibility for finding a remedy, were pointing out in those days—I am sorry to say we were not listened to very much—that if we were to tax industry to too great an extent it would certainly bring about unemployment. We were competitors in the race for the world's trade with other countries, one of which was referred to in particular. How could we in this country, with a population of just over 40,000,000, stand a Budget of £1,400,000,000, when our greatest competitor, the United States of America—who, although they certainly helped to win the War, came in at any rate a considerable time after we did—with a population of 100,000,000 had only to face a Budget of £1,100,000,000?

We were told by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in those days that he was budgeting in that way because he wished to put himself in the position of saying that this country paid its way, and not long ago he was saying that we were the only country in Europe that could proudly say it was paying its way. I want the House to consider for a moment whether it is better that we should be in the position of being able to say that we are paying our-way, and have 1,500,000 of our workers unemployed, or whether it would not have been better that we should not pay our way so much—that is to say, if we had not been so well off as regards our own exchange, and had carried other countries with us in our return to prosperity, or as one may say, to a pre-War condition. When our rate of exchange with the United States was 3.17 to 3.20, as against the normal figure of 4.86, we had a much greater amount of employment in proportion than we have at the present time. Now we have improved, as we say, in our rate of exchange with America. It is now 3.90, but what is the result? We are not buying anything from America, and that is why the exchange has improved. My opinion is that it would be much better if the exchange were worse and we ourselves were in the better position of being able to buy from America and find more employment for our people. The same thing applies with regard to the exchanges in other countries. We are told very often that what has happened has not been due to the Budget, but it is a remarkably singular thing that the bank rate—the question of reducing which, and its influence on the trading, facilities of industry, has been mentioned to-day—was increased at about the same time as the last Budget was introduced. That increase in our bank rate, which was not followed by an increase in the bank rate in France or Germany, also synchronised with an increase in unemployment. At this time last year unemployment was only three-quarter of 1 per cent., whereas at the present time it is about 8 per cent.

I think it was a mistake to try and force up our own exchange at the expense of our probable customers. We must remember that, in the case of my own trade at any rate, three-fourths of the trade has to go abroad, and therefore it is essential that our customers shall be in the best possible position to buy our goods. I argued 12 months ago that it was a mistake to compel some of our customers to pay—10 or—12 a ton for coal, as we did, simply because we wished to leave the price of our own product at one particular figure. It was stated on both sides of the House that it was a good thing to make the foreigner pay in that respect, but I think that hon. Members will now admit that that was a very foolish policy. It placed those people who were paying such exorbitant prices for the coal which was a necessity for their industries in the position that they could not possibly re-purchase from us the goods which we desired to sell to them; and it will be noticed that the rates of exchange in the various countries in Europe have gone gradually worse since April last. We were in a much better position when we were doing badly as regards exchange, and were doing better as regards our work, and I think that that is the remedy which we ought to seek. As I have said, we have now any amount of goods, but we are short of money. It may be said that it is not true political economy to talk about an inflation of currency, and hon. Members may think, possibly, that I have not studied the subject of political economy. I would tell them, at any rate, that I studied for some considerable time under the tuition of a gentleman who is now one of the most respected Permanent Secretaries at the Board of Trade, and also under the principalship of the uncle of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson). Still, having studied political economy, I say deliberately that it is time that this House and the Government considered whether it is not advisable temporarily to inflate our currency again. In 1914 we passed the Currency and Bank Notes Act, the result of which was to allow the Government to advance Treasury notes to banks up to 20 per cent. of their deposits. I believe that if we were to do that again it would be of very great assistance in finding employment.

Industry all round is now short of what may be termed its main spoke with regard to production. After the Armistice, a good many people could get no orders at all—there was plenty of money but no goods. Industry, however, could go on stocking and did go on stocking until the demand came. There was no demand until the April after the Armistice, but it illustrates the advisability of sometimes preparing for the needs that are sure to come, although they may be long delayed, and at the same time giving employment to the workpeople. In less than two weeks after industry had begun to revive—I am speaking of my own trade—the cotton trade—all the stocks were cleared out. I believe that the same thing would happen again. I personally am concerned, in one way and another, with trying to find employment for over 8,000 people, and it is my greatest regret that it is impossible to employ those people at the present time more than three days per week in alternate weeks. If, throughout the whole of industry, credit facilities were greater, they would be able to go on stocking more and more until such time as the nations abroad were able to buy and began to take our goods, as I think they will do before very long. We are now suffering because of the lack of confidence in industry. That lack of confidence was brought about when, in April of last year, industry was taxed, in the opinion of a great many, beyond its capacity to pay, and also because a certain section of the community thought that one section was not indispensable to the other. Now that twelve months have gone by, and we have tried the effect of taxing industry, as it were, to bleeding point, I think that even my hon. Friends on this side are agreed with me that employers and employed must now come together. That was indicated by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Labour party, who opened this Debate. I think they will agree that any method that we can adopt, or suggest that the Government shall adopt, that will help to get the wheels of industry going again, will be all to the good. Do not let us worry about being dogmatic and academical, about getting our sterling exchange up. There is something more important than the stability of our exchanges, and that is the well-being of our people.

It would not only be a step in the right direction, but practically the only step that we could take, to depreciate our currency for the time being. By doing that we could improve the exchange of those who are our future customers. Let us get the exchange in France from 56, as it is to-day, back to 37, as it was when our exchange, with New York, was 3.20. Then France would be able to buy from us. Let us get the exchange of Italy from 104 down to 80, and that of Spain from 28 down to 23. To depreciate our own currency is the only way in which we can automatically improve the exchange of others. We must not be satisfied with looking out for prosperity ourselves as a nation unless we are prepared to carry other nations with us. It is an international question, and the sooner we realise that the better. I am glad that we now have on the Government Bench someone who can deal with the question of finance, and can co-operate with the Minister of Labour in this very important question. I would beg the Government to give serious consideration to the question of re-introducing the Currency and Bank Notes Act, with the definite purpose of depreciating our currency temporarily, and so bringing the currencies of other countries more into line with ours, in order that international trade may be resumed and fuller and more regular employment provided for our workers.

If I may be permitted a passing reference to the speech of the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson), I would like to say that it was very doleful, very hopeless, and very depressing. We were offered nothing but a reduction in wages—not a very cheering prospect for those who desire to see conditions improved. There are two things that the hon. Member said to which I should like to call attention, because they mark a radical difference in outlook between his view on the one hand and ours on the other. He spoke of the duty of local representatives as trustees of the people's money. Evidently, by the stress that he laid upon it, he considered it to be far more important to safeguard the money than to attend to the conditions of the inhabitants. Secondly, he referred to the position of the workers in industry as being that of mere wage-earners. I thought that the War had destroyed that spirit, but evidently it has not. If the spirit still exists of looking upon and speaking of the working man as a mere wage-earner, there never will be any hope of peace, and I question whether there can be any hope of progress.

I did use that expression, but I think I apologised to the House for it. I put it forward, if I remember rightly, as being merely a classification, and not as an expression to be taken literally or in any opprobrious sense.

I am sorry that I did not hear the withdrawal, but, of course, I accept it at once. There are one or two things which I think the Government has failed to do, and, in particular, one which I believe to be of vital importance to the future of our country as a manufacturing and exporting country. Some time ago an Industrial Fatigue Research Board was formed. It was helped along by the Government. Its business was to study industry in a scientific way so as to eliminate undue fatigue and to get the maximum of production with a minimum of physical effort. That, I think, is a thing the Government might have continued to support, because on the scientific development of industry, on the teaching of people that the ultimate aim of industry must be to get the maximum of production with the minimum of effort, depends the future of every industrial country in the world, and I am sorry the Government has not continued its support of the Industrial Fatigue Research Board, and I hope reconsideration will be given to the matter so that the resources of the nation shall stand behind the central idea that undue fatigue should be eliminated, that people should be taught the best possible way in which to do work, and that they should be taught how to get the absolute maximum of production with the minimum of physical effort which alone can make a producing country producing for export a prosperous country as time goes on. The country that pays the closest attention to research and makes the most careful possible study of industrial processes, that seeks how every atom of industrial energy may be exercised to the best advantage, will finally become the most prosperous country in the world, in my opinion, and I hope the Government will very carefully consider whether it is not in the best interests of the country not only to give back to this Board the support it previously extended, but to redouble that support and help the work in every possible way. That is one criticism of the Government which, I hope, is not malevolent in spirit and is certainly given with the idea of making our country, what I believe it ought to be and will be, industrially the first country in the world.

I want to say a word about the action of the Government, an action I cannot possibly understand, with regard to what are known as the Washington Conventions. In Washington in the early winter of 1919, the Labour Conference under the League of Nations was held. Everybody there thought that when the Convention was arrived at it was the duty of the Government in every country which was represented and which had subscribed to the Convention to place it before its governing authority and to back it and try to make it law. One of those Conventions related to the 48-hour week. I was President of the Commission that worked out the details of the scheme. We have not heard a word up to now as to what action the Government intend to take with regard to the Convention which we arrived at. I know the trend of the discussion. There was not a bitter fight but a very great fight as to the terms of the Convention. It was understood certainly by the workmen's representatives that this Convention was a minimum and not a maximum, and that it should not be used in any way to injure the conditions of those who at that time had better conditions than the Convention laid down. Due regard was paid to countries which were not very well developed in an industrial sense, and finally in this case employers' representatives, representatives of Governments and representatives of the workers agreed to a Convention that, they thought would be honoured in every country that had taken part in the discussions at the Washington Conference. Our Government has not yet submitted a project of law, and there is a doubt, certainly rather more than a doubt, that the Cabinet looks upon itself as the body responsible—not that Parliament is the body responsible but that the Cabinet itself is. Certain questions have been asked and answers have been given that led one to think that that is the interpretation of the Cabinet. Whether that be the case or no it is certain that the people who took part in those discussions at Washington believe that the Parliaments of the different countries were the authorities and that the Government was bound by its pledged word to submit the Convention for the ratification of their Parliaments and to help it through.

There was also an alternative Convention which roughly laid down this principle, that for six weeks before and six weeks after child-birth a woman should be sheltered from physical labour and should receive an amount of money which would keep her in reasonable health during those twelve weeks. Not only has the Government not introduced this Convention, and tried to get it passed, but the Minister of Health, I believe, has announced that the Government has no intention of ratifying the Convention. The people who took part in those deliberations at Washington did not look upon the Cabinet as being the body responsible, but looked upon the Parliaments of the nations as being the only bodies capable of determining the issue, and just as we are being outstripped in many details in the labour field so are we being outstripped by other nations in this matter. I believe the French Cabinet took the view of our own Cabinet that they were the governing body, and were the deciders as to whether these Conventions should be introduced. But the French House of Deputies itself determined that this Convention should be put into operation. Is it too much to ask the Government to make certain that for six weeks before and six weeks after child-birth a working woman should have a chance? If it be not necessary that this amount of rest should be given to a woman I do not know what in this world is necessary. It is necessary, in my opinion, in the interests of future generations that children should be born healthy, and that a woman should not work in such a way as to make it almost inevitable that she gives birth to children which are not thoroughly healthy. An unhealthy child is always a great burden on the community, and from the mere point of view of pounds, shillings, and pence, apart altogether from the greater and wider humanitarian point of view, this is the one country on earth where one might expect that the whole House of Commons, without respect to party, would take the step that had been laid down at Washington, and would make it sure that women should not, by force of circumstances, be compelled to work within six weeks before and six weeks after childbirth. These two Conventions are things the Government ought to place before the House, and get through at the earliest moment. Twelve months was the time laid down. It was extended to two years because it was felt that certain Governments in countries which were not properly developed industrially might have difficulties, but no one ever dreamt at Washington that in a country like England, 15 months after the adoption of the Convention, not a word would have been put before the House of Commons on either of these two subjects, and I ask the Government either to carry out what we understand in Washington was their pledge or to give some explanation as to why these things are not done.

The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Clynes) opened the Debate with every good reason, with the grave and poignant problem of unemployment, the problem of problems at this hour, and he righly said I welcome this discussion and welcome the opportunity to take counsel together once more upon it. Further, he rightly said the real necessity to be achieved is to get the wheels of trade going round again and give prosperity and employment to busy hands in mills, factories and workshops. I will reply in the fullest and frankest detail to the points he has raised on that grave and urgent problem. For the better information of the House, I will endeavour to take up seriatim the questions which have been so far raised. I should like in the first place, in view of the references of the right hon. Gentleman and the many questions which have been put to me for some little time past, to deal with the problem of Trade Board policy. The original Trade Board Act of 1909 was designed to be applied to trades in which wages were exceptionally low—what we called and still call sweated trades. Four trades were in the Schedule of that Act. Six Trade Boards were created, four in Great Britain and two in Ireland. They covered 200,000 persons, a great proportion of those persons being females. In 1913, five further trades were brought in, which involved the creation of seven further Trade Boards, four in Great Britain and three in Ireland. That made 13 in all, covering about 390,000 people, of whom roughly 80 per cent. were females. Now I come to the amending Act of 1918. There a much wider sweep was taken. Under it Trade Boards, by the order of the Minister, could be set up in trades in which there was no machinery for the effective regulation of wages. Since that Act 51 new Trade Boards have been set up, 23 of them within the last 12 months. That makes, with the 13 of the older Act, a total of 64, and the total number of working people covered by the 64 is in the region of 3,000,000. I shall refer to these 51 boards again in connection with the right hon. Gentleman's charge that we have failed to carry out the recommendations of the National Industrial Conference, a charge which met with considerable acceptance from hon. Members opposite, respecting particularly the recommendation of the Conference that there should be a Bill creating a Royal Commission to fix a minimum wage, because these 51 Trade Boards, covering over 2,500,000 people, have all been established since that Conference.

As regards the constitution and procedure of the Trade Boards, let me point out, as there is a great deal of misapprehension on the subject, that under both Acts, the older Act and the 1918 Act, the composition of the Board is identical: an equal number representing the employers, and an equal number representing the employed people, together with independent members appointed under the first Act by the President of the Board of Trade, and appointed under the later Act by the Minister of Labour. In setting up a Trade Board the procedure is deliberate, is thorough and is careful. After most detailed and often lengthy investigation, notice of intention is issued. Forty days then elapse for objections. These objections are examined, and finally, in a proper case, the special Order applying the Act to the particular trade is made. Then the constitution, personnel, and Regulations for the Trade Board proceed. When the Board is set up, if it proposes a rate of wages, notice of the proposal is issued to the trade, and again two months are allowed for objections to be lodged. Thereafter, the Board meet to consider the objections and for the purpose of fixing the rates, and the rates, when fixed by the Board, are referred to the Minister for confirmation. The Minister's powers are limited either to confirming the rates or to referring them back to the Board for further consideration if he considers they should be varied. In the normal way a period of from three to four months elapses between notice of proposal and the actual confirmation of the rate. As an interval of forty days elapses between the giving of the notice setting up the Board and the actual setting up of the Board a period of at least six months normally elapses between notice to set up a Board and the actual confirmation of rates.

Here I come to a point which has been made somewhat controversial, not by my right hon. Friend, but by many of his friends. In recent months, as industrial depression has become deeper and graver, a growing body of representation has reached me as to the necessity to hasten slowly in the establishment of these Boards, lest I should merely be adding to the already grievously large number of persons who are suffering the hardships of unemployment. Therefore I have felt bound to take these representations into serious consideration, and I have already told the House, and I now repeat it, that it is my considered view that, in the interests of all concerned, and particularly in the interests of the Trade Board move- ment, it is desirable to proceed with caution at the present juncture. I have also, in reply to questions, stated that proceeding with caution does not by any means infer that we are doing nothing at all. On the contrary, the fact is that I have before me at this moment six trades in respect of which Orders applying the Trade Boards Acts to those trades have actually been made, namely, the fish distributive trade, the fruit distributive trade, the hairdressing trade, the boot and floor polish manufacture trade, the whip making trade, and the sacks and bag trade. In all these cases it is necessary to take the next step, which is to make the actual appointment of the personnel of the Board and the Regulations governing the procedure of the Board. I am proposing, as soon as the Department has been able to collect the necessary information and the names of the Board, to set up these Boards. That is one part of my answer to the suggestion that there is some nefarious influence at work setting aside all the beneficent work done since 1909 under the Trade Boards Acts. In addition, as I have also stated before, under the procedure laid down by the Acts, formal notice of intention has been given to apply the Acts to the meat distributive trade and the lace warehousing and finishing trade. The statutory period for receiving notices of objection is forty days, and objections to the intention to apply the Acts to the meat distributive trade have been received, and are being considered. I have already stated that, unless the volume of objections made to me is such as to convince me that the Acts should not be applied, I propose to apply the Acts in these two cases.

No. In addition to these two cases, in accordance with the undertakings given by my predecessor, the present President of the Board of Trade, investigations have been carried out, but are not yet completed, in connection with other distributive trades, including drapery and women's and children's outfitting, men's and boys' outfitting, boots and shoes, and the seed trade. Investigations are in an advanced stage in connection with the catering trades. I have also been asked ques- tions in this House by my hon. Friend who has just sat down, amongst others, about the textile small wares trade, and the embroidery and trimmings trade, and in both these cases investigations have taken place. There are other trades which have been brought to my notice as being trades to which the Acts should apply, and preliminary investigations have been made in some cases. In addition, in response to requests from existing Trade Boards in several cases, notably the sugar confectionery trade and the stamped or pressed metal wares trade, to extend the scope of the existing Boards. In both these cases there have been discussions with the Boards, and investigations have been and are being carried out. In view of what I have said it would be fantastic to assert that we are setting aside and reversing this great Trade Board policy. Nothing of the kind. What is being done is that we have to bear in mind the circumstances under which we find ourselves, and that we cannot do in a period of great depression what we might do in a time of great prosperity. We have to move with caution lest in our desire to help people who require help we make the condition of things worse. I propose to proceed precisely along the lines which I have endeavoured to indicate.

I come now to the question of the National Industrial Conference, in connection with which it is said that little or nothing has been done. I think my right hon. Friend said that we had flouted the recommendations of that Conference. The National Industrial Conference was formed by the Government and presided over by my predecessor. It met in the Central Hall, Westminster, on the 27th February, 1919, and appointed a provisional joint committee, which consisted of equal numbers of employers and employed, charged especially to consider questions relating to hours, wages and general conditions of employment, unemployment and its prevention, and the best methods of promoting co-operation between capital and labour. The Committee reported on the 4th April, 1919, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. A. Henderson) knows so well, and their report was endorsed by the National Industrial Conference. Their chief recommendations were directed to the regulation of hours of labour, the regulation of wages after the War, and the provision of insurance against unemployment. As it is suggested that nothing whatever has been done in regard to these matters, let me take these three recommendations.

Yes. In regard to that I endeavoured to show in the earlier part of my speech that 51 Trade Boards covering 2,500,000 people have been established and are now functioning, all since the date of that report. I think that is to a considerable extent an answer to the question of the minimum wage.

As regards hours of labour, the Provisional Joint Committee recommended the introduction of legislation to establish a 48-hours week for all employed persons, certain provisions regarding overtime, and suggestions for the regulations under which exceptions to the principle might be permitted. Frequent consultations took place between the Minister of Labour and the Provisional Joint Committee, and on the 18th August, 1919, a Bill was introduced designed to give effect in general to the recommendations of the Committee. That Bill met with criticism in detail, particularly owing to the exclusion from it of persons employed in agriculture and shipping. As a result the Minister of Labour has continued conferences with representatives of the Provisional Joint Committee, and has prepared a further draft dealing in the most practical way possible with the position of agriculture, and making certain other alterations in the original draft of the Bill of the 18th August, 1919, in order to make the Bill more practicable from an administrative point of view. The final considered opinion of the Provisional Joint Committee on this draft has not yet been received. In this last draft opportunity was taken to introduce one or two additional restrictions as a result of the International Labour Convention at Washington which defines the regulation of hours of labour. That is how the matter stands to-day. Broadly speaking, my endeavour here has been to secure such a measure of agreement between the parties as will enable me to introduce this Bill in an atmosphere of general goodwill and agreement. I find that we go ahead much faster if that can be secured than in any other way. So far I have not been successful in bringing about that condition of things.

As regards wages, the recommendations of the Committee fall broadly into two parts: the establishment of a minimum wage for all employed persons and the settlement of the wages in the period immediately following the Armistice. On the latter point, my predecessor introduced legislation extending for six months from May, 1919, the stabilisation of wages which had been secured by the passage of the Wages (Temporary Regulation) Act, 1918. Since the lapsing of those provisions, the Industrial Courts Act, 1919, has been introduced, providing for the establishment of a permanent Court of Arbitration, to which all disputes relating to wages or any other matter may be referred with the consent of both parties to the dispute. And in addition, the establishment of conciliation machinery within the trades has been pressed on through the medium of the Joint Industrial Councils. My predecessors and myself have done all we could to develop the establishment of joint industrial councils, of which there are now 70 covering roughly about 3,500,000 of workpeople.

We owe a great deal to these Joint Industrial Councils for having helped us to solve the problem. Of these 70 councils no fewer than 40 have been started since April, 1919. These 40 cover roughly one and three-quarter millions of workpeople. These Joint Industrial Councils have discussed a great many cases of wages by agreement. The employers sat on one side of the table and the employés on the other. They got to realise each other's point of view, and appreciate each other's positions, and I cannot imagine anything better than the promotion of what I may call Whitleyism in these councils. In a very large number of cases they have come to decisions on the question of wages within the last year and a half. With regard to minimum wages I have said, at the instance of my predecessor who made the investigations, 51 Trade Boards have been established covering 2,500,000 workpeople. All these Trade Boards are entitled to fix minimum rates. That is since the date of the National Industrial Conference as regards whose recommendations it was said that nothing whatever was done. So that if my right hon. Friend has not got the Minimum Wage Bill yet, he has in very large measure got the substance of what that Bill would have secured. The other question that was covered by the recommendations of the National Industrial Conference was the grave problem of unemployment. Do not let my hon. and learned Friend suggest for a moment that that conference has done any harm on this point.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us the effect of these restrictions on wages in regard to the cost of production, and the possibility of supplying foreign markets?

Trade Boards deal with trades with a very low level of wages. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to discuss this matter with my hon. Friend. The Joint Provisional Committee recommended that the normal provision for maintenance during unemployment should be more adequate and of wider application than was provided by the Unemployment Insurance Act. Further, that there should be provision for under-employment as well as unemployment. Incidentally, the two sides were sharply at variance on one very fundamental matter. The employers' side were all for a contributory scheme; the trade union side were all for a non-contributory scheme. Therefore their joint deliverance on that was not very helpful. What, then, have we been doing since on the grave matter, the problem of problems, since the findings of the Provisional Joint Committee? The number of persons covered by insurance at that time was 4,000,000, in the building, engineering, shipbuilding, and iron and steel trades, and a few others, and the benefit was 7s. a week. Since then my right hon. Friend says that little or nothing has been done. Let us see.

We passed a largely extending Act last year, and that has been amended twice since then with the assistance of all parties including that of my right hon. Friend. It was amended on the 23rd of last December, and again on the 3rd of this month. The position to-day is that the benefit is not 7s., but 20s, for men and 16s. for women, and the number of persons covered by insurance is not 4,000,000 but 12,000,000. The State contribution to the fund at that time was £1,000,000 a year; to-day it is £5,000,000 a year. In the interval between the 3rd March and 2nd November-this year, 16 weeks' benefit may be drawn and a further 16 weeks from 3rd November, 1921, to the 2nd July, 1922, to cover an emergency period if unemployment should continue so grave as it is. And moreover this emergency benefit may be drawn even if no contribution has been paid, provided the applicant was employed in an insured trade for no fewer than 20 weeks during the year 1920, and is; normally employed in an insured trade, genuinely seeking whole-time employment and unable to obtain it. In order to enable such terms as those, even with the increased contribution which is not payable until July, to be possible we have had to draw upon the insurance fund, which is over £20,000,000, and the scheme which the House was so good as to pass on 3rd March provides that even though from now until the end of June, 1922, the level of unemployment over the whole period is not more than 9½ per cent. of insured persons, we can make those payments, and if it is at 9½ per cent. for the whole period, the amount of benefit paid out under the scheme between now and then will be £45,000,000. My right hon. Friend is not entitled to say on this point of provision for unemployment that little or nothing has been done to carry out the recommendations of the Provisional Joint Committee.

With regard to the figures for unemployment, I can give those of the men and women who are registered. There is a margin of people not registered, but still unemployed. Those registered as wholly unemployed are as follows—I do not give the figures for the boys and girls—these will have to be added: In the middle of November 375,000 men were registered as unemployed; in the middle of December, 433,000; in the middle of January, 604,000; in the middle of February, 748,000; and on 11th March, 872,000. The figures for women are: Middle of November, 98,000; middle of December, 149,000; middle of January, 238,000; middle of February, 295,000; and 11th March, 335,000. The two together make: Middle of November, 473,000; middle of December, 582,000; middle of January, 842,000; middle of February, 1,043,000; 11th March, 1,207,000. Over and above that there are men and women on short time. On 11th March men and women registered as working short time were 708,000. That figure compares with 626,000 in the middle of February, 546,300 in the middle of January, and 162,400 in the middle of December. The position is to-day that there are about 1,250,000 men and women registered as wholly unemployed. There are 750,000 men and women working on short time, but, thanks to the provision of the Act of 3rd March, they are all, save round about 100,000, receiving some provision, the men £1 a week and the women 16s., or such smaller portion as is proportionate to the short time which they may be working. Such provision has never been made in this country before, or in any other country, and to say that all that counts for nothing is to overstate the case. Week after week £1,000,000 to £1,250,000 is being paid out. Compare that with the state of affairs in February, 1919, since when it is said little or nothing has been done.

As the right hon. Gentleman has used that phrase so often, may I say that I used it in relation to the substance of the recommendations of the Joint Committee.

7.0 P.M.

It is those that I am dealing with. My right hon. Friend means that we ought to do much more. I quite realise that, and I am grateful for the assistance of all parties in making the provision which has been made. My right hon. Friend asks, "What have you done to endeavour to find work?" We have provided this alleviation for those who are ready to work, capable of work and cannot find work, but we are asked, "What have you done in regard to finding work?" The arterial roads, and road maintenance schemes in hand will absorb £10,500,000, half of which is found by the Road Board, and half by the local authorities. The Ministry of Health is hastening sites and sewers for housing operations, and the money involved in those operations is something like £5,000,000 more, which is mainly provided by the State. Lord St. Davids' Employment Grant Committee has provided £3,000,000 more, and spent £800,000 of that. Roughly, about 100,000 men who otherwise would have been unemployed have been found useful productive work. My right hon. Friend says, "You should have done much more. I would rather pay a man £2 a week for two days' work than 20s. for a week in which he does no work at all." It is not so easy to make and to find productive work for these people as he thinks. At any rate, I am happy to say we are on the eve of finding useful productive work in another direction. I am happy to be able to say that satisfactory progress has at last been made in the scheme for the absorption of ex-service men into the building trade. After the National Federation of Building Trade Operatives, to whom we first went, refused to cooperate with the Government, a scheme was put before the Federation of Building Trades Employers. They consulted their constituents and I have been informed this afternoon that they have accepted the scheme. The scheme will provide for young ex-service men now unemployed, who have not had an opportunity owing to the War to learn any trade, to be trained in the skilled crafts of the building trade which require augmentation. In addition, ex-service men employed in the trade as builders' labourers will have an opportunity of coming under the scheme to be trained as craftsmen. The total number of men we hope to enter under this scheme is 50,000. The employers will pay a percentage of the standard district rate of wages of the craft varying in accordance with the proficiency of the trainee. He will receive 10s. a week for the first six months, and 5s. a week for the next six months, these additional grants being recoverable from the Government.

The Building Trade Employers' Federation have accepted general responsibility for the success of the scheme, which will be operated through the instrument of the Employers' District Associations in conjunction with the employment exchanges. The men will be taken on under a contract of service with the employers for two years, and I have no doubt whatever that this will be a great success. I wish to take this final opportunity of making an appeal to the Building Trades Unions to come into the scheme now it has been started, and to help us to work with success a scheme designed to provide a career for these ex-service men. I am certain that the Government and the Employers' Federation would be glad even now if they could secure the cooperation of the Building Trade Unions.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any estimate of the number of men to be up-graded within the 50,000?

No. If my right hon. Friend will put down a question I will look into it. I know how many ex-service men there are roughly—a very large number—but I cannot give them at the moment. They are employed as builders' labourers, and although they are not unemployed we think it right that they should have a chance under this scheme to be up-graded.

Is the right hon. Gentleman going to pay the unions the £5 per head bribe? [HON. MEMBERS: "They would not have it."]

No, that is gone. The unions would not have it. I am now making an appeal to them to come in and help on other grounds.

My right hon. Friend referred to the General Accident Fire and Life Assurance Corporation and to the difficulty which has arisen there. The point was put by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) in a question. My right hon. Friend asked why I did not exercise my power of holding a court of inquiry and thus bringing this dispute to a close. The Industrial Courts Act provides as to the first part for conciliation and arbitration agreed to by the whole of the parties, if they also agreed to abide by the finding of the arbitrator. Part 2 of the Act provides that the Minister, if he thinks fit, having failed in all other ways, can hold a court of inquiry. I have taken the view that that is a course which should only be adopted through the greatest circumspection. It is a course which, if it is used too frequently, will lose its efficiency. It can only be justified, in my view, if the public interest is involved in the dispute in question. I have intervened twice, once in the electrical dispute and recently in connection with the tramways dispute. As to the main point at issue, namely, the alleged victimisation by the corporation of members of the staff who belong to the guild, we have received the assurance from the general manager that the corporation is indifferent as to whether junior members of their staff join the guild or not, but they state that they cannot allow a member of the guild to hold the position of responsibility or trust in the corporation. That is the answer of the corporation. I could have held a court of inquiry but, after very great consideration, I really did not think that this was a case, in which I should issue those instructions. The real power and efficacy of such a court rests in the infrequency in which it is used. I therefore say this is not a case where I thought on the whole that Part 2 of the Act ought to be called into requisition.

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to put this point. He has cited two cases where the public interest was involved because of the action of the men who quarrelled in these two cases, and inquiry was justifiable. Here is an instance where something equally precious, individual liberty, is involved, and the right to work, and to join unions and organisations which conduct their business quite within the law. I suggest that, just as the right hon. Gentleman intervened in the other two cases, where the trouble was due to the men's action, he might well intervene on this occasion where personal liberty is involved.

The total number of people involved in this dispute represent one-fifth of those employed. Is it for the protection of individual liberty to intervene on behalf of one-fifth and to dragoon the other four-fifths?

The fact that the dispute affected this side or that did not prejudice me in the question of the Court of Inquiry. From the point of view of the public interest, I did not think it was a case where I could intervene with effectiveness. What do these people say? They say that they have no objection to the junior members of their staff joining the Guild, but they say that they cannot allow a member of the Guild to hold a position of responsibility or trust in the Corporation. I will not discuss that, but it is not unknown that when a man goes on the management side he drops his association with his trade organisation. That is not unknown in other quarters, and I did not think it right to use this weapon of a Court of Inquiry in this case.

My hon. Friend referred to the Washington Convention. He made particular reference to the Convention and its recommendations on the employment of women before and after childbirth. He was very indignant at our failure to deal with the matter. The Minister of Health is here and I can confidently assure the House that he can show that British legislation is in advance of what Washington proposed. I have no doubt my right hon. Friend can make out a thoroughly good case on this matter. I am sorry to have kept the House so long, but I thought it my duty to deal with all the points raised.

Maternity Welfare

In reference to the last point mentioned by my right hon. Friend, there are two questions which have been addressed to the Government with regard to the Washington Convention, so far as it relates to maternity. The first was that the Government declined to submit legislation to the House. The second was with regard to our reasons for not adopting the recommendations. As to the first, the procedure relates to the interpretation of Article 405. It is clear that the authority concerned in this country for initiating legislation is the Crown and the Executive. If it were to be interpreted otherwise, it would mean that a body meeting in Washington could compel this Government to submit legislative proposals to this House against its desire, but if the Government submits proposals to this House it is on the assumption that the Government approves of them. That is how our affairs are conducted.

Otherwise it might follow that this outside party would be competent to dictate the formal proceedings of this House, and that I do not think the House would be inclined to accept.

On the other hand, we were well aware that an opportunity would arise and it practically has arisen for calling the attention of the House to our action in this matter. Therefore our declining to introduce legislation in this form has not led to the question being excluded from the cognisance of the House, because in accordance with our procedure there are plenty of ways in which the subject can be brought up if hon. Members so desire.

And there is no way of getting it through if the Government does, not desire.

The discussion this afternoon is a justification of our procedure. I come to the proposals themselves. As the Minister responsible for recommending the Government not to accept them in this form, it would be quite easy to justify that recommendation. What were the proposals of the Washington Convention? That we should provide maintenance for the six weeks preceding and the six weeks following confinement. That during the first six weeks the woman should be allowed on medical certificate to remain absent from work and that during the six weeks following confinement she should be compelled to remain absent—note that—and whilst she was absent she should be paid out of public funds, or by a system of insurance benefits, sufficient to provide for full maintenance, free attendance, and for a doctor or a certified midwife. These were the recommendations relating to employed women. We have in this country a system which is doubly capable of dealing with these questions. We have an Insurance Act which provides a maternity benefit for women who are themselves, workers or for the wives of employed contributors. We have parallel with that, and administered by local authorities, a system for giving assistance, advice and so forth in connection with maternity and child welfare generally. These recommendations cut right across the whole of that system, which has been gradually built up in this country far in advance of any other country. That is one reason for not adopting the recommendations. Any hon. Member will see that it is impossible for an outside body to prescribe in this definite form what legislation should be undertaken by the various countries which are parties to this Convention, because you must interpret these recommendations in the light of the way in which the different countries have acted.

We have acted years in advance of these recommendations, with singular success and with much greater economy than these recommendations would permit. The Washington Convention relates to unemployed women. In this country that would mean that there would be about 460,000 women who would be eligible for these benefits. Our system provides that not only the women employed but the women who are the wives of employed contributors, although they themselves are not employed, shall also benefit. The recommendations would automatically exclude 3,540,000 women who are the wives of insured persons but are not themselves employed contributors. These recommendations apply to about one-ninth of the married women of a particular class in this country, and to one-ninth only. But we have done something for the remaining eight-ninths. If the recommendations were adopted and applied to the employed women only, that would cost about £1,700,000 a year. A system of this kind could not conceivably be limited to this small section of women of the industrial classes. You could not limit it to employed women only. That is the utterly impracticable character of the recommendations. As soon as you had the system in operation, the working man whose wife did not go out to work would say, "My wife is as much entitled to this benefit as a wife who goes out to work." That would apply to eight-ninths of the married women of the country, and it would cost an additional £15,000,000. That was one of the reasons why I advised the Government that we could not accept this recommendation in the form in which it was made. In view of our other services I do not think we require to incur the expenditure in this form or to anything like this amount. What is the alternative which we have adopted? It is infinitely more economical, and it has placed this country conspicuously ahead of any other. In reply to a question by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lanark (Captain Elliot) on 16th March, I supplied a table which showed the expenditure of local authorities on the services mentioned. That table shows that the average expenditure for maternity and child welfare is rather less than 1d. on the rates. The amount of expenditure on these services has been grossly exaggerated. The total cost of maternity and child welfare out of the rates is rather less than 1d. on the average, and the total provision out of the Exchequer is rather less than one-fifth of a penny in the £. That is a very small expenditure in comparison with other services. The total for the Exchequer is about £900,000, and the total for all authorities a little less.

There is now established a great system of maternity and child welfare centres throughout the country—nearly 2,000 of them, with about 3,500 trained nurses and visitors. We have established a large number of maternity beds in houses where women who live under bad conditions can be properly attended to on payment of a nominal fee. It is a system which has developed on lines quite different from those recommended by the Washington Convention. The results are brilliant; no other word is adequate to describe them. During the past two or three years there has been a conspicuous absence of a bad epidemic, people have been better fed than before, and since the War there has been a greatly awakened conscience on these matters. Let me give the House the child death rate for London. In 1913 it was 106; in 1917 it was 104; in 1918 it was 108. I do not want to exaggerate what can be attributed to the services I have described, but they have had a vast influence. In 1919 the rate fell to 85, and in 1920 to 75. The child death rate for the greatest city in the world has been brought down in that remarkable way.

On the basis of the facts which I have just set out, I think I was fully justified in recommending to my colleagues in the Cabinet that it was unnecessary for this country to adhere to the Washington Maternity Convention.

National Expenditure

This House has a reputation for extending to new Members, when they venture to address it for the first time, a degree of courtesy and kindness which I feel sure I can count on on this occasion. I have been in the House for only a few weeks, and I am painfully aware of the fact that I have not yet become sufficiently accustomed to the atmosphere of the House to have that confidence which I should like at this moment. I wish to explode an idea which seems to exist, the idea that those of us who have taken our stand under the banner of anti-waste are purblind and incapable of distinguishing between what is wise and what is unwise expenditure. On the contrary, we hold that true economy consists in limiting national expenditure to those things which are imperative and are within the taxable and rateable capacity of the community, measured by their ability to pay without undue strain on their financial resources and their general well-being. It is only by keeping within such bounds that trade, commerce, and industry can be expected to recover and prosper and the welfare of the State and of the people be assured. Since I have been in this House, I have heard practically every Debate upon subjects involving expenditure, but it seems to me that none of the speakers has gone quite deeply enough into the causes of our present financial plight. I am inclined to believe that a good deal of the troubles from which we are suffering to-day is due to the fact that at the period of the Armistice, when the Government must have known that the War was practically at an end, they failed to visualise the impoverished and emaciated condition of the nation's finances.

It was a case of "easy come and easy go" with them during the War. Every demand that was made upon the public was generously responded to, whether it was in the nature of additional taxation or of applications for loans. While we must all admit that the question of defeating our enemies was of primary importance to the question of money, there was nevertheless a lavish expenditure during the War and that has led up to the position in which we find ourselves to-day. If the Government at that time had paused, and said to themselves: "Here we are at the end of this horrible War. What is the state of the financial resources of the country?" we should not be suffering as we are to-day. This has a very important bearing upon the question which we have just been discussing, the question of unemployment. Is the House aware that during the six years ending 1920 we had spent no less than £11,268,000,000, and that that sum exceeds the sum expended in the preceding 526 years by no less than £324,000,000? It is an amazing fact, but it is there. We have heard that the Government have taken the greatest possible pains to ascertain the capacity of Germany to pay, but I have yet to learn that they have taken any particular pains to ascertain the capacity of the taxpayers of this country to pay, and I would like to direct their attention to that. After the Armistice there were two roads open. They had come, as it were, to the fork of a road, and there was a signpost, one finger of which pointed to Reform and the other to Retrenchment, but by reason of the fact that they had neglected the primary duty of endeavouring to visualise our financial resources, they went down the road to Reform, never thinking what the cost would be. They went on, they set up these new spending Departments, they embarked on schemes which, however desirable or even necessary, were not imperative. They let loose the blight of bureaucracy, with all its devastating consequences. They ignored the teachings of history, in which, if they had paid the slightest attention to them, they would have found almost analogous positions to that in which we find ourselves to-day—not nearly so serious, of course.

What happened at the end of the Napoleonic wars? There was a brief period of almost rampant prosperity, followed by grave depression. The continuance of war duties on articles of consumption reduced the home demand, and the artificially high cost of living and production hampered export. That was the case after the Napoleonic wars, very similar to the case in which we find ourselves to-day. The Government of those days took steps to restore the gold currency; they lowered the interest on public debt, and reduced armaments. I do hope most sincerely that it will not be necessary for us to resort tot the lowering of the interest upon the public debt. Then, again, after the Crimean War, Parliament forced economy upon the Government. Disraeli moved against the continuance of wartime taxation, to give, as he said, a necessary impetus to salutary economy. Gladstone deprecated nibbling at the Estimates, and he advocated taking the sense of the House upon the expediency of saddling the county with excessive charges. Lord John Russell pressed economy for all he was worth and Opposition finally succeeded in imposing its will upon the Government. I would like to direct the attention of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Chamberlain) to Mr. Gladstone's Budget speech of 1861. This is an extract from it:

The hon. Gentleman must not let it stop there. I said I did not anticipate the necessity of increased taxation unless the House voted additional expenditure not then in sight, or desired to make further efforts for the reduction of debt, and when I did ask the House for increased taxa- tion, it was in order that we might make further efforts for the reduction of debt.

The fact remains that in the forthcoming Budget, by reason of the policy that he permitted himself to be a party to, he had to provide an additional £200,000,000, and that £200,000,000 has since been increased by Supplementary Estimates by another £108,000,000. What are the remedies? They must necessarily be drastic. I very much like that phrase of Gladstone's, "Nibbling at the Estimates." There is no use nibbling at the Estimates in the present case. We shall have to make a great big bite in them, and what is really necessary is a clean cut with these Ministries which we cannot afford—a clean cut; no half-hearted measures. We were dealing to-day with a Bill for the cessation of the Ministry of Munitions and the Ministry of Shipping, a very necessary Bill, but a good many of us feel that that Bill is not going to be so effective as we would like to see, because the whole staffs of these Ministries remain in being and will continue to remain in being, so far as I can see, for a very considerable time. I grant that in the matter of disposal of the huge stocks we have got on our hands it will necessarily take time, but I maintain that those stocks are now very considerably larger than they ought to be, and that their disposal has not been nearly so rapid as it might have been. Then, on the question of the Ministry of Health and its housing schemes, which I regard as extremely uneconomic, the main cause of the grave shortage of houses at the end of the War was the Land Tax Clauses of the Finance Act of 1909–10. [ Laughter. ] Hon. Members laugh, but the facts remain. Those Clauses put the speculative builder out of business, there is no question whatever about that, and, coupled with the control of building materials, have materially delayed, to put it no stronger, the erection of those houses for which the country is clamouring.

Then there is the President of the Board of Education, with what I very respectfully call his feed-the-brains-and-starve-the-stomach policy, a policy that will produce in this country, unless I am greatly mistaken, a bespectacled, pale-faced lot of children, very similar to those we used to see in Germany in the years before the War. Education is very necessary, but it can be gravely overdone, and I feel very strongly indeed that the move of the President of the Board of Education is very much in the direction of over-doing it, at unnecessary expense, having regard to the position in which we find ourselves. The effect of these schemes is reflected in the rates themselves, which are now no less than £300,000,000, as against £100,000,000 in the year preceding the War, an increase largely due to the passing on of taxation to the County Councils and from them to the Municipal Corporations. Then we have got the League of Nations, a most amiable project, a consummation devoutly to be desired, a sublime ideal, if you like, but is it practicable? How can it be? It seems to me that unless you can accomplish the impossible—the unification of the psychology of mankind—the League is bound to disappoint the hopes of its supporters. I maintain that so long as the Government controls continue to exist the return to normal conditions will be indefinitely delayed—normal conditions, not pre-War conditions. I do not want to see a return to pre-War conditions. I cannot believe that any hon. Member of this House would like to see a return to pre-War conditions, when there were no fewer than 12,000,000—I believe I am accurate in making this statement—of people who were barely able to eke out an existence. There must be, in these normal conditions, everyone will admit, a greater margin between the cost of living and the rate of wages than there was before the War. It has become the fashion to say that this is the only possible Government and how well off we are compared with other countries. I cannot subscribe to that. I do not believe that British statesmanship is so bankrupt as that. The question is, not how well off we are, but are we as well off as we might be, and I do not think that anybody who seriously considers the position will admit that we are. A weak Government is an evil accentuated by a blind subservient majority, and the larger the majority the greater the evil. What is the position of the two erstwhile great parties in this country? The Liberals are torn to shreds, and the Unionists halting between two opinions. I never felt more pleased with myself than I felt to-night, when I was listening to the speech of the Minister of Labour, to think that I was an Independent. To those Unionists sitting on the Benches opposite I would say —and I am an old Unionist, do not forget it—do not lose sight of the fact that when the day of reckoning comes, as it assuredly will come, it is you who are going to be blamed. An hon. Member says, "Dear me." I would say, "Wait and see." The public know that the Coalition-Unionists have a majority of something like 170 Members in this House, a majority of 170 votes over the combined votes of all other parties. The time will come, and it is drawing near, when the Unionists will be blamed for the state of the finances of the country. With great respect, I am very glad to see the Prime Minister in his place, and to have the opportunity of addressing a few words to him personally, if he will permit me. I am going to exhort him—

I apologise, Sir, but with your permission I would like to address a few words of exhortation to the Prime Minister. Only the other day I was reading the speech of the Prime Minister delivered in that crucial period of the War, December, 1915, in which he said:

"Too late! That has always been our history. Too late!"

I would like to remind the right hon. Gentleman that the crisis to-day is at least as grave as was the crisis when he uttered that warning, and I adjure him to let us see to-day a bit of the spirit which prompted those words. It is not by notes, not by committees, but by orders, imperative orders, to those who have the spending of the nation's money that some sort of definite retrenchment will be achieved in their Departments. There are far greater dangers in delay than seems to be realised inside this House, and I would respectfully remind him that the public are very often prone to forget great services in their resentment over what they may consider to be injuries. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Wrekin (Sir C. Townshend) speaking on the Army Estimates on Tuesday last, remarked that the Prime Minister complimented him on his maiden speech, and inquired, "Why did not you give it them hotter?" I do not anticipate any such honour, nor would I consider I had done my duty were I to leave myself open to such a question. I have but voiced the views of my constituents." You may call it "the savage music of the Jazz band" if you will, but I warn the Government that the people are in revolt against this high taxation, with all it leads to and with all it means, and that if the Government fails to hearken and to act they will be driven from this temple of government as surely as the money changers were driven from the Temple of old. There is yet time. It is not yet too late, and I humbly and with great respect ask the Prime Minister to let us see a revival of that spirit which prompted the words I have quoted from his speech in December, 1915.

:I desire to advocate the spirit of economy from a position not perhaps altogether popular on this side of the House, and that is to ask for a reduction, a still further reduction, in the expenditure on armaments. My own impression is that, although the Government have done much, yet still more may be done in that respect. I desire to advocate a reduction from the point of view of economy and the point of view of morality. We cannot afford to spend £207,000,000 this year upon our armed forces, and if we could afford it I do not think we ought to spend it. The position taken up by the Ministers for the various defensive forces is to go back to 1914 and say that, allowing for the value of money, the datum line should be our expenditure of 1914. I submit that that is an utterly wrong datum line, because in 1914 this country was surrounded with potential enemies. The position to-day is entirely different. Neither Germany, Russia, France, nor Italy is a potential enemy in any sense of the word whatever. The nearest potential enemy is the United States of America, 3,000 miles away. In the Debate, especially in the Naval Debate, references were made to the possibility of America being an enemy of this country. I submit that that ought never to enter into our thoughts, much less into our words, in this House of Commons, and that the position of America and the British Empire was summed up in what will be famous words, uttered by Mr. Davis, the American Ambassador, on the day before he left this country: I submit that to the Prime Minister as being the right principle with which we should look upon any possible contest between America and Great Britain, and I hope the vessels referred to by Mr. Davis will not be men-of-war at all, but peaceful merchantmen. Let us have competition in trade and in manufacture and in the arts of culture, but not in the arts of war. In this year's Estimates we have been referred to a one-power standard. I regret that, because the mere fact of talking about a one-power standard, whether we like it or not, infers a competition in armaments with somebody. Before the War, in fighting elections, we heard the phrase

My next objection to expenditure on armaments is a moral objection. When 8.0 P.M.

this country agreed to Article 8 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, it morally pledged itself to a reduction of armaments. I consider that there is a danger, especially on these Benches, of mere lip service being done to the League of Nations. Are we really prepared to give a lead to the nations of the world in favour of the League of Nations? It would be deplorable if the League of Nations became a party question; yet there is a danger of that. I heard a great many speeches in connection with the Debate, and the only one which referred definitely and favourably to the League of Nations was one from the right hon. Gentleman for Miles Platting (Mr. Clynes). I hope it will not become a party question, because it would be disastrous if that were so. Therefore I have a very strong feeling that we on this side of the House ought to show that we really believe in that League, and, in order to do so, we ought to take a strong line in reducing our armaments. There is all the difference in the world between saying we will agree with other nations to reduce, when all the time everybody's eye is on everybody else and nations are keeping step for step with potential enemies. What we ought to do—we are strong enough to do it—is to stand out before the world and say we are going to reduce these armaments, we are going to put an end to the private manufacture of armaments, and we are going to do this regardless of what any other country in the world does. In that way the British Empire would lead, and its lead would be followed. If there be a risk, I believe it is a small one, and it is worth while taking that risk. If the Prime Minister would take a line of that kind he would find that the people of this country would support him in a way of which he has no idea.

There is a great mass of feeling among the people of this country in favour of the new spirit, but there is a grave danger of disillusionment, of our losing the new spirit which we seemed to catch at the end of the War. The Prime Minister has a great opportunity, and he is the man to take it, if he will only give expression to that mass of incoherent feeling which exists in the country in favour of a new line. A new line in this particular matter would be to set an example to the world that we believe in the League of Nations. That is an example which we should set, not only to the great countries of the world, but to those new States which are to-day starving themselves in order to provide the very latest in armament. The people of these new States are to-day spending money which they can ill afford, and which leaves them practically bankrupt, in order to get the very latest form of poison gas, or some such other destructive force. The Prime Minister of the British Empire can stand forward, if he will, and set an example not only to the great but to the small nations of the world, an example which will be followed willingly by the other nations, especially by the United States of America. They want such an example, they want someone to take the first step. Surely the people to take the first step should be the greatest, the most important people in the world, namely, the British Empire? I therefore wish to express my own personal opinion very strongly indeed that we cannot afford to spend £207,000,000 on, destructive forces, on armament, and if by any chance we try to afford it by starving our expenditure on education, which is another word for the formation of the character of the rising generation, if we endeavour to afford it by cutting down our expenditure on better health services then it will mean very serious injury to this country. Even if we can afford it, I say morally we have no right to do it. We ought to set an example to the civilised world that we are not satisfied to go back to the datum line of 1914. We want something better, and we look to our Prime Minister to give it.

I should like to congratulate my hon. Friend (Sir Thomas Poison) on his maiden speech, spoken so boldly and so frankly. The necessity for economy is becoming more imperative day by day. Owing to the continued subsiding of values in this, country, I believe there will be a declining return from almost every avenue of revenue. I expect the Government will: find that within a few months such taxes, as Excise and Customs and also the Income Tax will show a downward tendency from which there may be no recovery for years. Once that downward tendency has started, it will be like a stone rolling down a hill, and I warn the Chancellor of the Exchequer that if this starts he will find it very difficult to stop it. There is every warning that the revenue in the coming year and coming years will show in the various taxes a great falling off. The economic ills from which the world is suffering can only be cured by a prolonged period of both national and personal economy. This country, which should have shown an example both to our Allies and to our late enemies, is at the present day in the forefront of spendthrift States. When economy should be the watchword of every Department of State, we find in the various Estimates that have been presented to this House no coherent or continuous effort to effect any economies at all. It is very difficult, in a speech on the whole ground of economy, to take all the items in which one might point out where economies might be effected. One can only point out one or two items in order to illustrate the speech. Take the Air Force on which I spoke the other day. The number of highly paid posts in the Air Force at the present day are much the same as the number of highly-paid posts in one of the South American armies. Surely such an over-populated country—because we are an over-populated country—emerging from such a hideously expensive war as the one from which we have emerged, cannot afford such services as running the Air Force on such expensive lines? Again the Government are still flooding the country with expensive officials, highly paid inspectors, who are prying into the lives and habits of private people. The War may have been for the sake of national freedom, but in its result there is no doubt that it has brought a restriction of indivividual freedom without parallel for more than two centuries. I am sure, watching the career of the Ministry since the Armistice, that it has committed every act of miscalculation and misjudgment and misgovernment that was possibly open to it. It has ignored every economic fact, and over half the globe it has incurred grave financial responsibilities that are going to cost great sums of money, and which are much more difficult to lay down than they are to take up. It is spending large sums of money in the Middle East, and I believe it is spending large sums of money in German East Africa. Again, we find out that to Greece it is opening a credit of £10,000,000. This country can- not afford such a policy, a policy which opens credit. We want all the credit we have got for ourselves, and we cannot afford to spend large sums of money in countries over half the globe when we should be collecting all our resources together here to recover from the ills of which we have only too many ourselves.

There has been practically no effort to reduce the staffs of the various Government offices. Take the War Office, which was mentioned the other day. The staff of the War Office is nearly five times that which it was in 1914, although the last Estimate represented the Army which was provided for was in numbers nearly equal to that of 1914. I reiterate that the country cannot afford to pay for such large staffs in Government Departments, and I would point out that the mere existence of such staffs is a sure indication of more spending of money. For every 100 or 1,000 more officials you have, the more will they spend. They are not going to sit down in these offices doing nothing. Think of what they must use in stationery alone. The bill for stationery is tremendous, although it does not come under the heads of the separate Departments. We do not know what each Department spends in stationery. It is very misleading that we should have such things as stationery and public buildings coming under other Votes. We are not able to say what each Department uses in stationery, so that we cannot get at where the waste is. The extent to which the present scale of both national and local expenditure raises the cost of every article exported from this country is little understood. To-day, every yard of cotton or woollen goods, every item of machinery, in fact, everything that is exported, pays in national and local taxation not less than four times as much as similar products paid before the War. The result is that owing to the present impoverished condition of the world there is only a dwindling market for our manufactures produced under such costly conditions. Last month the trade returns showed that the tonnage of our exports was less than half the tonnage of our exports in February, 1914. That is a perfect indication that we are at least only half as prosperous to-day as we were before the War. I would further point out that that tonnage is showing a perfectly steady decrease. What it will be in 12 months' time, if it goes on at the present rate of decreasing, it is very terrible to contemplate. When, as I say, you have an indication from that point of view that we are only half as prosperous, on the other hand you have taxation that is over four times, and nearly five times, as heavy as it was in 1914. We are not in the same position as other countries, as is so frequently pointed out. We are a very over-populated country, dependent on our trade more than any other country in the world, and we are the most heavily-taxed country in the world. We are wasting the resources we have left.

The Prime Minister, in one of his speeches, said, "What is all this talk of economy? If the War had gone on for another year, there would have been no talk about it." Let us consider for one minute that suggestion. The last year of the War was as expensive as all the previous years added together. If we had gone on with the War for another year, it would probably have been as expensive as all the previous years of the War added together, and, instead of a National Debt of over £8,000,000,000, we should probably have had a National Debt of £14,000,000,000. I state emphatically that if the War had gone on for another year, we should have been an absolutely bankrupt country. That is my answer to the suggestion of the Prime Minister that there would have been no talk of economy for another year. True, we should have gone on, and, true, we should have won in the end, but if we had had to go on we should have been, as I say, an absolutely bankrupt country. As it is, we are an absolutely impoverished country, and the sooner we realise it and the Government realise it, the sooner prosperity will come back. I admit the conditions are bad everywhere, but they are accentuated by the action of the Government, and, unless the Government realise it, this country is in for the most appalling years of its existence. I say this in no party or factious spirit. I do not want to make anything out of the position I have taken up. I shall be the first person to be pleased in this House when I have no longer to get up and make a speech on economy. I appeal, as I have appealed before, for economy in every Department of the State.

I listened with interest to the speech made by the hon. Gentleman who opened this discussion, and also to the speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. Both hon. Gentlemen will, I think, permit me to say that they take an unduly gloomy view of the prospects of their country. I agree with them that there is urgent need for economy in public and private expenditure. I agree with them that the reductions which we have already achieved are not sufficient, and that further reductions must be obtained. But not only do I not agree with him, but I deprecate the expression of these gloomy prognostications, which, I think, our country is strong enough to disprove in peace, just as she was strong enough to disprove in time of war.

The Government is what the country makes it. No doubt both Government and country react upon one another. If the hon. Gentleman means that the primary duty lies with the Government, I agree. I think the hon. Gentleman who opened the discussion would like me to add that, within the Government to-day, the primary duty lies with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I listened to the rather sweeping condemnation which the last hon. Gentleman has passed on the Government and all its work, and I listened to the equally sweeping condemnation which the opener of the Debate passed upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer and all his work, with, I hope, becoming modesty, but with a certain equanimity, for I am convinced that when it can look upon these times impartially, the country will be capable not only of seeing any errors we have made, or any faults we have committed, but also the difficulties we have successfully overcome, all the progress we have made, and all the achievements which are to our credit. But, at any rate, it will be a satisfaction to the hon. Gentleman who opened the Debate to know that the present weak Chancellor, who has succumbed so often, and, indeed, so continuously, to the threats or the blandishments of his colleagues, will soon be replaced by another and, let us hope, by a stronger man. One of my colleagues said very pleasantly, but rather plaintively, in my presence the other day that he had always been told that the Chancellor of the Ex- chequer is not a bad man to do business with if you approach him in the right way. My hon. Friend's complaint was that he had always been unfortunate in not being able to approach him in the right way. I say there is another side. There is a corporate responsibility, and I hold it no more decent for a Chancellor of the Exchequer to repudiate the common policy of the Cabinet of which he is a member, than it would be for one of his colleagues to repudiate it. I do not make myself responsible for Estimates without believing that these Estimates should, in all the circumstances, be laid before the House, and, having done that, I am not going to seek any current popularity for myself, or to excuse myself for the responsibility which I undertook. I wish those criticisms had been more fruitful in constructive suggestions. The country, of which the hon. Member spoke with such intimate knowledge, and with such confidence as to its final judgment, must be watching the Anti-Waste party I am sure, not only with interest, but with some measure of surprise. It will be surprised that the first vote of an Anti-Waste candidate should be in favour of the Labour policy on unemployment.

The right hon. Gentleman said my first vote was given in favour of the Labour party's policy on unemployment. It was, but by reason of the fact that I entirely disapprove of the Government's attitude towards the question of unemployment.

It will be a surprise to the country that the Anti-Waste party was not here in full force to help the Government repel the proposal of the Labour party to continue the coal control indefinitely at the expense of the taxpayers. They were not here in full force.

I should have been surprised if they were not represented on an occasion of that importance. It was suggested by the hon. Member for Dover that we were keeping too large a staff of the Ministries which are coming to an end. What would he do? There are ships for sale. There are stores for sale. You must have a staff to dispose of these. The House has been more than once told how my Noble Friend Lord Inverforth, acting for the Ministry of Munitions, made up his mind some time ago that prices had reached their maximum, and that the proper policy was to sell everything he could without breaking the market and destroying trade. Because, we must remember, if the Government had suddenly flooded the market with their stocks, unemployment would have begun seriously, not within the last few months, but long before. It has been the object of my noble Friend and of Sir Joseph Maclay, the Minister of Shipping, to dispose of that of which they had to dispose on behalf of the Government as rapidly as the market could take it off their hands. Hon. Members may think they might have disposed a bit more rapidly, but these business men were not fools of politicians like the Chancellor of the Exchequer. They are people with really some knowledge of how business is done, and not only business, but business on a big scale, though perhaps not so big as they have latterly had in hand.

In spite of that and not through any fault of their own or that of the Government large stocks still remain to be disposed of. Ships have lately coma into our hands by the Treaty. Stores are still being thrown out by the Army that have been retained so far for particular reasons. There are stores which accumulated during the War which it has not yet been found possible to dispose of. We could scrap the lot. We could throw them on the market. What, however, would be the nature of the Debate on the next occasion there was an opportunity for it if we had done that? What would be said if we could not present a good case; if we had not marketed these stores to the best advantage, and if we had not had all the records which might be necessary in order to defend every financial concern against any charge that might be brought against it? You must have a staff, and the staff that will remain over from these Ministries, and that will be carried to one of the Departments, is the Disposal staff and the Accounting staff almost exclusively.

The hon. Gentleman discussed the Man dates. I could not understand whether he objected to our occupying territories or whether he objected to our occupying territories under Mandate. I submit that, financially, it does not make a lot of difference whether you occupy the territories themselves with or without a Mandate, except that with a Mandate you get the good will of the rest of the world. The hon. Gentleman spoke of the Middle East. I agree with him. But he knows that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies has gone out to confer with our officers and Ministers on the spot to see what reductions can be made in the expenditure, and especially in the military expenditure, which is dependent upon first-hand information. Obviously, I cannot anticipate the results of my right hon. Friend's mission further than to say that it is our hope that as a result of the measures, political and otherwise, which he may be able to recommend to the Cabinet on his return, we shall within a reasonable time secure a reduction which I think the hon. Member himself will consider satisfactory in the present expenditure of these countries.

The hon. Gentleman also spoke of the large expenditure on what was lately known as German East Africa. There is expenditure in that part of the world which we shall be called upon to bear. The War was prolonged. The administration has been largely disorganised. Development has been arrested. I am afraid that there must be for a time some charge upon our resources, but let the hon. Members of the House think of our position generally—might I not say of the British Empire and the relation in which she stands to her Colonies? A little help given at the start to set these territories, to which reference has been made, on their legs, and then their development goes forward to the immense advantage of the trade of the world, and first and foremost of the country which has brought order and civilisation into these areas. I should like to say frankly I do not think we can afford what I should like us to be able to afford. If more capital were available it would be wise and prudent business to use it. I do beg the House not rashly to forego the opportunity of developing these great possessions which are fundamental to our industries and our life in every sense of the term, and which can be made to produce all those things, or many of them, the scarcity of which we suffer from, and which, as they produce them and prosper, will afford new markets for our industry and more employment for our population.

We have achieved great things in this way. As a nation we have shown that we possess the qualities that made us great colonial administrators and great developers of these backward regions. We cannot do as much as I should like. We have at the present time to restrict our efforts within narrow limits, and to what is absolutely necessary because of the needs of capital here and of our own financial security. But I beg the House to appreciate the position, to look forward and see what these countries—at the moment a burden perhaps—may mean to the British Empire in a few years' time. I beg hon. Members to speak on these matters with reason and moderation and to bring a little patience to bear on the consideration of these problems.

The hon. Member behind me in a most interesting speech made one observation in which I think he was rather unfair to the Government and to the Prime Minister. He feared that the League of Nations would become a party question. I hope it will not be so. It will not be so if the Government can prevent it. My hon. Friend was forgetful, and by reason of that forgetfulness a little unfair to the Prime Minister. He forgets how warmly my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has himself championed the League of Nations in the House; how strongly he has spoken for its success, and for that future which he trusts lies before it.

My hon. Friend impressed upon the Government a further reduction of armaments. The House does not realise how much time and attention has been given by the Cabinet to a reduction of armaments—indeed I may say to the reduction of expenditure generally. I myself asked my colleagues and the Prime Minister to appoint a Finance Committee, because I thought that this problem had so great an importance at the present time that more Members of the Cabinet ought to have present to their minds the difficulties which ordinarily are the primary concerns of the Chancellor of the Exchequer alone. My colleagues on that Finance Committee have gone through the Estimates of these Departments, I do not mean in regard to little details, because that would have been wasting their time, but they have done so in regard to big questions, to see what reductions can be made. On nothing have we spent more time nor is there anything we have examined more closely than our expenditure on Naval, Military and Air forces, and both the Government and myself will be very much disappointed if there also we have reached the limit of reduction. I do not think we have. We have brought the Estimates down as low as the circumstances which confront us permit, but I hope hon. Members will remember the amount of uncertainty and disturbance there is abroad and will realise that we have brought the Estimates as low as it is safe to do at the present time.

My hon. Friend said, and I echo his observation, that the idea of a competition in armaments between the United States and ourselves is horrible, and, for us, at any rate, unthinkable. I think my hon. Friend goes a little further when he suggests that because we signed a League of Nations Article in reference to the reduction of armaments—an agreement, by the by, which was contingent on its acceptance by other nations, and in the hope and belief we all might act together—therefore we should at once take action, regardless of what any other part of the world thinks, and regardless of the fact that other signatories to that agreement, so-far from decreasing, are thinking of increasing their armaments.

There are times when to set an example is good. There are also times when premature action may destroy the chances of further consideration and negotiation. My hon. Friend expressed what I agree with him is a widespread feeling in this country, that we are not content, after fighting this great War for freedom, and, after destroying the great military autocracy of Central Europe, we are not content with a vista of years when nations shall still be struggling under the burden of these immense armaments, and when all other national services shall be curtailed because of the burden of military service. I hope that, quite independent of a general reduction of armaments, we shall be able before long to make a further reduction of our military and naval expenditure, and I hope my hon. Friend, and the world also, will see, as some of the questions which have been disturbing it become settled, other nations with a greater need will think less of the things of war and more of the things of peace, and will settle down to reconstruct the world that has been half wrecked, to restore capital and industry, and to establish once again on a sound footing the economic condition of the whole of Europe. The hon. Member drew a gloomy picture of our position. One would not think from what he said that we were the only belligerent power to balance revenue and expenditure.

Not only are we the only belligerent Power to balance revenue and expenditure, but we are almost the only nation in Europe that has balanced its Budget, and thanks to the willingness of the people to pay, combined with the willingness of this House to impose taxation, we have begun to pay off our debt, our foreign debt and our internal debt. I do not want to compete with the prophecy of the hon. Gentleman. I am content to say, as I have come to the end of my time as Chancellor of the Exchequer, that, looking back upon it, I am not ashamed of the work I have done, and I think that when we get away from the immediate present and are able to look back to this time history will record that that Government and that House of Commons which courageously gripped the financial problem at the earliest, and balanced its Budget and began to repay debt, did good work for the country and for the times in which we live.

So far, Labour has not taken any part in the discussion on national expenditure, and I am sure my right hon. Friend will agree that I should very briefly try to define our attitude to-night. It is very often suggested that we are not in the least interested in our vast expenditure or in high taxation, and that, as a movement in the country, we are prepared to support people who are called squandermaniacs in any enterprise in which they may engage. No statement could be further from the truth. The elementary facts are so simple, plain and clear that it is not necessary to recall them to the House. We pile up the expenditure, we increase the taxation, and a very large portion of the money which would otherwise be accumulated goes into the coffers of the State. I speak with no desire to be unjust in the least to this Government, but it will be admitted by most people that in the coffers of the State that money probably will not be used in the same productive and remunerative way as if it had been employed elsewhere. If that be true—and I think it is admitted by most students and critics of financial questions—it is perfectly plain that the amount of capital available for use will be restricted, at all events in its remunerative application, that the amount of employment provided will also be reduced, and that the loss will fall with the greatest severity upon those sections of the community who for the most part are least able to bear it. If that is correct, and I regard it as a very plain and simple analysis, it will be admitted at once that there is no party in the State which should be keener upon economy than the Labour party. I therefore object most strongly and emphatically to the suggestion which is made, not, indeed, here by anti-waste speakers, but by many of their speakers outside, that we are not in the least interested in this problem. The very reverse is the case.

Our position is that in the present situation we try to face the facts, and we are trying to face the facts of public expenditure and taxation in the light of the terrible legacy which has come down to us from the War. Next to the appalling loss of life, which invaded nearly all our homes, and brought to almost every door the full meaning of war, what many of us regretted most was the shameful luxury expenditure which occurred during a considerable part of the War period. I always felt personally that we should have to pay a very heavy price for that expenditure in post-War times, and I certainly sympathise with the school which suggested that during the War we had, perhaps, not carried taxation quite to the point which would prohibit or stop that luxury expenditure, which, hardly ever defensible, was less defensible than ever when the nation was in the terrible hours of crisis, and was struggling for its very life. That is a part of the legacy to which we have succeeded to-day. Another part of the legacy arises from the manner in which money was poured out on the supply of goods and services. These, no doubt, were required to carry our cause to victory, but they were very often purchased at a price which was far too high, was often unregulated, and involved for this country expenditure which, with no danger to the national cause, might have been substantially reduced. I am not going back to that history, but these are two illustrations of the way in which national indebtedness was piled up.

It is our duty, in considering taxation and in looking at expenditure, to keep the War experience clearly in mind. If I had any advice to offer to the Anti-Waste party, it would be that we shall gain nothing, in present economic circumstances in this country, by abusing any section of the people as squandermaniacs. In every problem of this kind we have to face the facts. We have to remember that a country has many duties which are, perhaps, strictly speaking, almost the duties of an industrial or commercial concern, and that there is certain expenditure upon which every State must embark, of which the immediate result cannot be seen, and for which no immediate justification can easily be offered. In the light of that consideration, what is the chief question confronting British capital and British labour in the matter of expense and taxation? This is a question upon which we feel keenly, because we have one or two millions of unemployed, and we realise that we shall never solve the unemployment problem in this country until we get our overseas trade going again, and can offer goods in the markets of the world on conditions which will enable us to compete with other countries. If heavy internal taxation in Great Britain is a cause of restricting our power of entry into foreign markets, then there is something which at once is affecting British employment, and which undeniably commands our attention. Are we worse off than other countries in the world? Hon. Members often say that we are taxed to the tune of £23 per head in Great Britain, while you have only a few pounds per head of taxation in Germany or other countries which they mention. That case appears to me to be one that is rich in fallacy, because we must keep in mind, first of all, the much larger populations, and, in the second place, the relation of their imperial or national taxation to their local taxation; and there is a wide variety of differences in those countries which appears to me to vitiate that comparison from the very start. The more we consider these economic problems, the more we see that there is hardly any common basis upon which the comparison proceeds.

If that be true, let us be very guarded indeed in the use of these figures. I cannot help thinking that it is better to look at the amount of the national income of each country which is taxed, and I venture to suggest that, if we compare certain countries which are now our strong competitors in trade, or our reviving competitors, we are entitled to conclude that, bad and difficult as our position is, it is at all events better than theirs. In that connection I cannot help remembering that, everything considered, we have the best financial system in the world. We have avoided many American excesses in speculation, and we have been cautious and conservative in pre-War times. That was often a ground of criticism of Britain's financial policy, but without it we could not have come through the War so successfully on the economic side as we have. What is the position of our reviving competitors? According to the report of our own Overseas Trade Department, dealing with economic conditions in Germany as recently as December last, the total national income of Germany in the current financial year was taxed to the extent of about 43 per cent. That is a very significant figure as applied to a reviving competitor, which is the position of Germany at the present time. Let us turn to the United States of America, which has been referred to during this Debate, which, undoubtedly, is a very powerful factor now entering markets which were formerly ours, and which, to many minds, is to be regarded as constituting the chief menace—though that is open to grave doubt—to British commercial prosperity. One of the most eminent authorities in the United States has just prepared an elaborate statement on internal taxation, and has directed attention to the experience under the Federal scheme of the past six years. It is a rather remarkable fact that during that time, in the United States of America, the advance in receipts from Customs has been comparatively negligible, but there has been a tremendous increase of the Federal revenue from what they call direct taxation, which is levied on business and commercial undertakings on the basis of the profits which they have earned during the past five or six years. The total amount—I give the figures with caution and reserve, because I am not quite sure that I can trust my memory—the total amount has risen to something like 7,000,000,000 dollars, and of that amount approximately 4,000,000,000 dollars is obtained by the direct taxation of business and commercial concerns. So much so, that in the United States there is already a widespread feeling that these great burdens which industrial undertakings carry are going to hinder the revival of American enterprise, and will penalise America in the markets of the world. That is not the only result. In point of fact the very heavy taxation has forced a large amount of American money into American municipal concerns, partly because a good deal of the return from such concerns is free from tax. But there are pronounced tendencies of the most important kind in a country which is a powerful competitor, which enables us to say to-night that while we have our difficulties in Great Britain, there are difficulties in other lands, and, on the whole, if we go about our economy in a proper way, we may get the restoration of our trade and commerce, and find ourselves actually better oft than many of those who are regarded by some as a menace to our British prosperity.

I am going to try to define the Labour policy in respect to retrenchment or reduction of expenditure. It is unnecessary to do more than mention the supreme importance which we attach to the reduction of armaments. We should like to see only an international police force, but as practical people we are compelled to recognise that this must come steadily, we should hope rapidly, as you extend the idea of a community of nations and as, above all, you build up the League of Nations itself as a definite and powerful reality. I do not require to press that because my right hon. Friend has indicated sympathy with that point of view. I am only going to say that it is useless to talk of minor reforms or economies here and there, although they are of importance and most of them we should support, but it is useless to concentrate on detail. Expenditure is a matter of grave, broad, international policy, and here we have a sum of two or three hundred millions upon which, under a proper world system, we can lay our hands and free it for far better and far more productive purposes. That is the first line. There is another line to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer made reference. He criticised some arguments which had been used regarding the occupied territories up and down the world for which in whole or in part we are responsible. We on these Benches view that expenditure with great distrust and misgiving. We quite agree that Britain has duties and responsibilities as a protector and as a leader of less enlightened people, but we feel strongly that in those areas throughout the world a vast amount of British money which we can ill afford at present is being poured out for results which are more or less in the dark. The Government appears to be drifting on in the hope that something of a political or economic character will turn up, and that, we suggest, is not a policy which British Labour can support from any point of view in the present condition of national finance. I am going to make this proposal. Speaking quite personally, I should not suggest that you can keep out of all these corners of the world. It is essential from the point of view of our economic prosperity that we should retain the closest association with many of them, but if we are going to have any association at all, let us try to make them self-supporting. Let us try to give their revenue producing undertakings the maximum chance at the earliest possible moment and if we have any responsibility where they are concerned, try to get as much as we can quite fairly and justly on the spot. But do not burden 44,000,000 of people who have a £1,200,000,000 or £1,400,000,000 Budget to face with so much of that expense, the justification for which they find it very difficult to defend and which they would like to see self-supporting with as little delay as possible.

9.0 P.M.

In the domestic sphere I have only one or two criticisms to offer to the policy suggested by supporters of the Government. We have consistently opposed any reduction of expenditure on education, expenditure on industrial research, and expenditure which is going to try to safeguard the standard of life of the people. I do not suggest that our educational system is efficient from every point of view. It contains elements of waste. The resources are very often misdirected, and if I had my way I should like to introduce far-reaching reforms, not only in the subjects taught, but in the way in which the national finance is used for the provision of that education. But what we are here to emphasise is that if we are going to starve education, if we are going to starve industrial research, if we are going to undermine the standard of life of a great body of the British people, beyond all question two or three things will be perfectly plain inside the next 10 or 15 years. For lack of education we shall be deficient in industry and commerce, we shall sacrifice a very large part of our home trade and our overseas market. For lack of a fair and adequate standard of life, we shall have increased our expenditure in public health, in poor law, and in other wasteful and more or less useless devices of relief schemes to which no one on these Benches gives anything more than a perfectly passing support as a means of filling the gap until we manage to find a better solution. That is the inevitable effect of this bogus class of economy in Great Britain. I cannot understand hon. Members, and more particularly that school of criticism outside, which suggests the wholesale curtailment of expenditure on education when in point of fact Germany and other countries now struggling under the awful aftermath of the War are turning their attention to all manner of devices which in a very short time—10 years according to one responsible critic not of Labour opinions—will enable them to beat this country again notwithstanding the loss and the defeat of their recent War experiences. I press most strongly that we can never support that kind of economy in justice to this country and to our people.

I am only going to urge one further consideration. We could effect great changes in the national sphere, but perhaps a large portion of our economy must be effected in the localities. The local authorities at the present time are for the most part getting grants for the more important of their services up to the extent of 50 per cent from the National Exchequer, and in some cases a little higher. Nearly every local authority has a burden of debt. They are trying to find money for schemes on which they must embark without delay, and they have to pay high prices for such money as they can obtain. While all these things are true, we find that the tendency of legislation is steadily in the direction of restricting municipal enterprise and curbing municipal effort in many localities throughout the country. I recognise that the great majority of Members of this House are opposed to State schemes and to the extension of schemes in the hands of local authorities or municipal councils. They prefer private and individual enterprise. We do not attach the same importance to that fading doctrine in this country, but I am quite willing to deal with it on the footing laid down by the majority in this House for the time being. I do suggest that we should make up our minds, until other Governments succeed this, what we are going to allow the local authorities to do. If we are giving them powers under different Acts let us make those powers plain, clear, and definite, and having given them that responsibility let us give them a perfectly fair chance to make their concerns revenue producing. Do not penalise their efforts by giving other powers to bodies of people to invade their precincts and lead to results which constitute an additional burden to large numbers of ratepayers. If that policy were fairly admitted many local authorities would be able to do more than they are doing now; they would be less a burden upon the National Exchequer, and we should get that contribution in the locality towards the responsibilities of our time which are now borne to such a large extent by the State and have already built up the heavy taxation of which this country is conscious to-day.

Russia, Trade Agreement

I should like to have followed the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham), but I should have spoken from a totally different standpoint. I should have agreed with a certain amount of what he said, and I should have disagreed with other things he said. I should have suggested to him that the State at the present time, for all practical purposes of expenditure and revenue, amounts to 2,300,000 men and women. My hon. Friend and his colleagues desire to put further burdens upon those 2,300,000 men and women; but I suggest that they are taxed enough already. I would have told him that the middle classes of this country are carrying a far greater burden of taxation than the middle classes of any other country in the world. I would have told him, having motored in Germany a few months ago, that the lower classes in Germany are taxed more than they ought to be. [HON. MEMBERS: "The lower classes?"]. Yes, the proletariat are taxed far more heavily than they ought to be. I would have told him that in America the rich, the millionaires, are taxed extremely heavily, while the middle classes are let off comparatively lightly; and I would have told him that in this country the middle classes are being taxed out of existence.

I desire, however, to raise another subject. I want to ask the Government a few questions about our trade agreement with the Russian Socialist Federal Soviet Republic, particulars of which are given in Command Paper 1207. This is a somewhat unique document. It is unique in closing one unique passage in our foreign relations with a neighbouring power which was our erstwhile comrade in arms. Shortly after the Communist Government took control in Russia in 1917, this country drifted into a sort of a kind of a war with the Soviet Government. We drifted out of the war into a sort of a kind of neutrality, and now we have drifted into a sort of a kind of a treaty. This particular treaty gives a sort of a kind of recognition of the Russian Socialist Federal Soviet Republic. We recognise to a certain extent this Communist Republic. Under the terms of this agreement we are to have envoys sent over from them to us, and we are to send envoys to them, and I cannot help thinking, after having read very carefully the rules under which these envoys will have to act, that in the diplomatic world they will be neither fish, flesh, fowl nor good red herring. I do not want to attack that agreement. I can well imagine that the agreement is perhaps the best for this country that could have been made at the present time, but that agreement has "temporary" written into every line of it. It is full of disquietude for other nations who are our Allies. May I quote from the "New York Times" of 18th March. I do not know its politics, but this is what it said: able to pay dividends of from 15 to 20 per cent., but the report of the directors of that particular concern for 1918 states;

That to my mind is the more probable course, and the greatest danger that I can foresee is that of some group of financiers or perhaps one great financier—I put aside for the moment the mythical Mr. Vanderlip and his concessions in Kamtchatka—obtaining at a knock-out price from the Soviet Republic these derelict or semi-derelict properties, railways and banks, and I can imagine the Soviet Republic in its mercy or generosity putting a clause into the agreement making the concession that the present holders should receive from the concessionaires some sort of compensation. Take the case of this particular railway, the dividends of which were guaranteed before the War by the then Russian Government, the shares standing at very nearly £100, while today those shares stand at from £4 to £6. I can imagine the Soviet Government and the new concessionaire giving as adequate compensation ten years' purchase at from £4 to £6 to the British shareholder in this particular railway. Is there any hon. Member of this House, outside those above the Gangway, who would say that that would be fair treatment to the shareholders in that railway and for the shareholders in so many other concerns in Russia?

Personally, I am convinced that this Government or any other Government that calls itself British, even a Government composed of those above the Gangway, if one were formed, say, within the next three months, would have enough British in them not to allow any of their nationals—for we of the middle classes are Britishers to a certain extent—to be plundered by die Soviet Republic or by any Swedish American or German concessionnaire. I trust that to-night the Government will take the opportunity of telling English business men who invested their money fairly in Russia before the War, that they are going to use the whole of the resources and the whole of their influence to see that they are not prejudiced or harmed unduly. I trust they are going—I hate to use the colloquialism—to warn the concessionnaires of other nations this for the moment, at any rate, they had better keep off the grass. I hope the Government are going to do that, and for that reason I raise this question now.

I do not intend to discuss the general merits of this Trade Agreement. That is a subject on which I have not sufficient information or knowledge at the present time. There is one outstanding fact in connection with the agreement which requires our immediate attention, and that is that the effect of the agreement is that this country recognises the Soviet Government of Russia as a de facto Government. That may have very wide and far-reaching effects. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I gather from those cheers of hon. Members above the gangway that they anticipate with pleasure the results of that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am not sure that the better instructed people in this country will be equally delighted with the results. I have very grave doubts whether the uncertain, the speculative, and the very contingent conditions of this agreement can so well outweigh the immediate and obviously grave objections to the recognition, as a de facto Government, of a Government with the deplorable record of the Soviet Government in Russia. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about Ireland?"] I am not going to talk irrelevantly. What I desire to ask is in regard to what my hon. and gallant Friend called the postscript, the supplementary Agreement to which this Government and the Soviet Government have put their names. It is somewhat humorously called "A Declaration of Recognition of Claims." I am sorry the Prime Minister is not in his place, because this affects an enormous number of British investors, both rich and poor. It affects very largely the financial interests of the country, and I hope before the Debate closes that we shall have the advantage of having the Prime Minister here to reassure the country as to the effects of the Agreement.

The first question I would like to ask is, have we any assurance whatever in this Agreement that the Soviet Government will pay just compensation to British subjects and British companies whose properties in Russia are confiscated by the Soviet Government? That is a fair question to ask. I look at this "Declaration of Recognition of Claims." Mark you, the recognition of these claims appears to me to be a matter of the barest honesty, and of the most elementary justice. Here is how this Agreement deals with it. It says, in effect, that these claims will be equitably dealt with in the formal general Peace Treaty that is some day or other to be made between this country and the Soviet Government. That language is alarming in its vagueness. "Equitable treatment" in the mouth of the Soviet Government may mean something very near robbery, and my alarm at the vagueness of this language is in no wise decreased by the passage which follows. On the contrary, the following passage, so far from removing our fears, is calculated to stimulate our suspicions. This is what it says:

There in one other question I would like to put. What about the debts and the loans which were made to the former Russian Government? The loans, millions in extent, were made not only by this Government to the Russian Government in former days, but by individual British subjects. I might draw the attention of my hon. Friends in the Labour party to the fact that these loans were made by men who were not by any means all rich men. Are not these debts to be debts of honour; are they to be debts for which "equitable" treatment only is to be given? I am very glad the Prime Minister is in his place now, because I hope it will be reassuring when we hear from him what provision is being made, in the first place, for the compensation of British subjects and companies whose properties in Russia are confiscated by the Soviet Government, and, in the next place, what provision is made by the Soviet Government for undertaking the responsibilities of the late Russian Government in regard to the loans and money which they got from our Government and from British subjects. Here, again, my alarm is increased when I see that the only provision apparently in this agreement in regard to repaying these loans or recognising the responsibility for them is the statement that the claims will be "equitably dealt with." It would be well if, before entering into a trade agreement with the Soviet Government—an agreement which Soviet Russia obviously desires—our Government had insisted on some clear statement on the part of the Soviet Government as to how far they intend to give us compensation for confiscated property and how far they recognise the loans of the late Government, to whose territories, to whose riches, to whose gold the Soviet Government succeeded, and by means of which great properties and great gold they are able to maintain themselves. Can the Prime Minister give us some reassurance as to the dangerous position in which we find ourselves? Such a reassurance would be welcomed gladly by financial and commercial interests in this country. Many outside this House would be most grateful if the Prime Minister could say that in the negotiation these undoubted claims of honesty and justice on the part of our subjects will not be overlooked and that so far as lies with him and with the Government every attempt will be made to exact from the Soviet Government that compensation and that responsibility for loans which are expected.

It is impossible to speak, however briefly, on the subject of the Russian Agreement without thinking of the ancient adage about locking the stable door after the steed is stolen. I do not wish to use the language of exaggeration, but it is not to much to say that if the steed has not been stolen it has been cast in the stable. I am not one of those who can be blamed for having refrained from saying anything about this Agreement until it came into existence, because I have spoken twice on this subject during the past two months. I feel strongly that the Agreement ought not to have been entered into by the Government. I may be old-fashioned, in my views, but I still re- tain a prejudice in favour of the Ten Commandments. This Agreement runs counter to the principles—the prejudices if you like—which I entertain. Both in the City of London and throughout the country amongst solid and decent people there is general wonderment as to how our Government has entered into this Agreement and what is the reason for it. They have looked at the OFFICIAL REPORT and at the speech of the President of the Board of Trade on 9th March, in order to find an answer to the question. What is the answer that they find? My right hon. Friend, the President of the Board of Trade has told us that it is gold. He said in that Debate: non olet, though it came from an illicit source. We were called a nation of shopkeepers by the great Napoleon, but after all even shopkeepers do not like trading with undischarged bankrupts or in stolen goods. That is the first reason which the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade gave for this agreement. He had another and a much nobler reason. He said we were doing it for Russia's good. I must say that I like my right hon. Friend's cynicism better than his philanthropy. This is how he described doing a thing for Russia's good: possess her. That is the argument. I do not think that the real reason for this agreement is contained in either of the suggestions put forward. The real reason was stated in that Debate by an unofficial speaker, the hon. and gallant Member for North-west Hull (Colonel Lambert Ward). He said: ment of Russia, and nothing whatever in regard to property confiscated, which is left for equitable consideration whenever a Treaty of Peace is entered into with the Russian Government.

Those who think we can accomplish much this evening in discussing the matter after the agreement has been signed forget the story of the accomplished fact. In a British prison yard there were two parties of convicts doing their daily exercise, and as they passed one another they were able, without the notice of the warders being attracted, to exchange a few words. Two friends passed one another in this way, and one said to the other, "What are you in for?" and when they passed the next time, the friend told him. The time after that, the man said, "How much have you got?" and the next time they passed the other replied "Two years." The next time, the first one said, "They cannot give you two years for that," and then, the next time, the other said, "They have done it." That is the story of the fait accompli. Here we are up against the fait accompli in the matter of this Russian trade agreement, but I hope the Government will remember that thousands of investors in this country have invested money in Russia, and look to the protection of the British Government. We seem to have travelled a very long way from the days of Lord Palmerston and his "Civis Britannicus sum." We do not find now the British Government going out of its way to protect the interests of its nationals in all parts of the world. I suppose we cannot expect that in these democratic times, but at least where the money of British investors, many of them poor people, has been legitimately invested in great enterprises in Russia, we may submit that it is up to the British Government to protect those interests by every means in its power, and to see that as little confiscation is done as possible.

I will first answer the two questions put by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for York (Sir J. Butcher) before I come to the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend who has just sat down, which challenges the general principle of the agreement. I regret I did not hear my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Finchley (Colonel Newman), who introduced the subject, but I have had a summary of what he said. I understand that he did not challenge on the whole the wisdom of the agreement, but he wanted assurances, like my hon. and learned Friend who spoke after him. I think I shall be able to give them the assurances which they desire. This is purely a trading agreement, recognising the Soviet Government as the de facto Government of Russia, which undoubtedly it is. I do not suppose anyone looking at the facts of the last two or three years could possibly challenge that. They have as complete control over that vast territory as any Government could possibly have under present conditions, and therefore they have to be recognised as the de facto Government of that Empire. It is not a treaty of peace. It was the desire of the British Government to clear up all these questions and get a general settling-up of all the outstanding difficulties throughout the whole of Europe and that part of Asia which is still under the control of the Soviet Government, and it was no fault of ours that that invitation which we extended was not accepted. I think it is a grave misfortune that the invitation we issued last year to the Soviet Government to come and discuss the whole situation and their relations with Poland, with Roumania, with the Baltic States, and with the great Powers in the West was rejected by the Soviet Government. I should like all those who think that the very unfortunate delays which have occurred are attributable to the action of the Western Powers to bear in mind that that invitation was extended by us with the assent of France, which was a great advantage, and that it was rejected by the Soviet Government. That would have enabled us to clear up all the points raised by my hon. and learned Friend and by my hon. and gallant Friend behind him, but owing to the refusal of that invitation we were driven to fall back on this trading arrangement.

We had to leave open all the questions raised by my hon. and learned Friend, but we have safeguarded them, every one of them. We have safeguarded them by the very words of the agreement, and he will find that the words are very comprehensive. All the claims against the Government of Russia, either in respect of loans, or in respect of any money which has been advanced or of any goods sup- plied to the Russian Government, or of any claims in respect of our nationals for injuries done—all these have been reserved for discussion when there is a general settlement of all the disputes between the Russian Government and ourselves. Those have been completely safeguarded—at least, so I am advised by those who give legal opinions to the Government upon all these topics—and I think my hon. and learned Friend will find that they are very comprehensive. He asked me to explain the difference between the first and second paragraphs. The first paragraph refers to claims of the character which he himself mentioned in respect of loans, in respect of injuries, in respect of damage done to our nationals. Those are deferred to what I call the general clearing up which I hope will take place. The second is in respect of goods which have been supplied. Goods under the trading agreement are a different thing. Those we trust can be settled without waiting for the general treaty of peace. That is the distinction between the two. But I can give my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Finchley (Colonel Newman) and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for York (Sir John Butcher) this emphatic assurance in respect of the questions which they have addressed to the Government that they have all been safeguarded. We propose to press the claims of our nationals for injuries done, and they are being reserved. We have made it as clear as we possibly can, not merely in the document itself, but in the interviews which my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, and which I myself have had with the representatives of the Soviet Government. We made it quite clear that we did not intend to forego any of those claims. It is true that they on their part said that they have claims in respect of damage inflicted by us upon their nationals. It is not for me to say whether those claims are good or bad, because that is a subject for discussion when we come to the general clearing up. That in itself indicates that they realise fully that these claims have not been forgotten, and we mean to insist upon them as part of the general settlement. We have also informed the French Government that that is our view. French nationals have advanced enormous sums of money to Russia, far more money than we have, and therefore it is a very important matter for France, especially to the French peasants, who in the past have advanced money to Russia to enable her to develop her railways and to develop her resources. We have given the same assurance to the French Government, that when there is a general discussion with a view to establishing peace between Russia and the Western Powers, then those claims will have the support of His Majesty's Government. I trust that will satisfy my two hon. Friends.

The right hon. Gentleman said in his very satisfactory statement that we were going to press claims as to loans and as to compensation on the Soviet Government. Is he in a position to say that the Soviet Government showed an intention of carrying it out?

I can say this, they never challenged it. I can say that they never repudiated their liability. The only point they put to us was the counterclaim. It is satisfactory to that extent, that their representatives never denied the liability of their Government in respect of the loans which have been made to their predecessors, never.

I come now to the more general question that has been raised by my hon. Friend. He, of course, has always been a very strong opponent of any negotiations with the Russian Government or of our entering into any trade relations with them. I do not agree with him that the sentiment of the city, and of what he calls every decent elector, is opposed to this. There are a good many decent electors who think it is the right thing to do. I can assure him that in so far as we are able to gauge things, the view of the trading community was that we ought to enter into it. My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade is in a special position to gauge the opinion of the trading community. He is in touch with them, and I have been to a certain extent, and I have never heard any expression of opinion from any great trading community against the renewal of trade relations with Russia. On the contrary, I think there was a general sense of relief that we had done it. I do not think there has been any violent protest. It is not a thing which has been done in a hurry. [ Laughter. ] Well it is not our fault. I have said before, and so have my right hon. Friends, that we have been pressing it. I do not now want to enter into that question. I pointed out that we were prepared for a general clearing up, and that it was not our fault that that was not accepted. I think it was one of the greatest failures in statesmanship on the part of the Bolshevik Government that they did not accept that invitation, but when there is an atmosphere of suspicion, when people suspect that there is some ulterior motive, they do not give you credit for desiring merely to arrive at a good understanding. But here is something which has gone on for the greater part of two years. It has been before the public and the public has known what was going on. We have had several Debates in this House of Commons. I have never concealed from the House of Commons that the Government meant to conclude a trade agreement with Russia if we could, never, and if there had been any real opposition, either on moral or commercial grounds—I am not drawing a distinction between them—if either on moral or commercial grounds or on a combination of both, I think it would have been more manifest. We have had one or two speeches from my right hon. Friend, but they do not seem to have permeated beyond the walls of this House, and they do not seem to have raised that great moral indignation which he expressed so eloquently a few minutes ago. They do not seem to have produced that echo from the whole of the decent electors of the country which probably they ought to have done. I think it means that, on the whole, the trading community of this country came to the conclusion that it was the right thing to do under the circumstances.

10.0 P.M.

From every point of view it was the only thing to do. You cannot rule out half Europe and a vast territory in Asia by ringing down the fire curtain and saying that until it has burnt itself out you will never send a commercial traveller there again. You cannot do it. It is a small world. Nations are very dependent upon each other. We are dependent upon Russia, and Russia is dependent upon us. My right hon. Friend complains of something said by the President of the Board of Trade to the effect that this was done in the interests of Russia. I do not quite recollect his saying that. It was done not merely in the interests of Russia, but in the interests of everybody, of everybody all round—in the interests of this country just as much as in the interests of Russia. Supposing we had not entered into a trading agreement now, will anyone tell us at what point we were to trade with Russia? Were we to wait until Mr. Lenin and Mr. Trotsky, and all these other gentlemen had disappeared, until the Socialist Government had vanished, or the Bolshevik Government had vanished? Were you never to do business with Russia? I have asked that repeatedly at this Table. Is there one man who would take the responsibility of saying how long it will last? I am not going to say. [ Interruption. ] There is one hon. Member there who seems to know. I think he is just the Gentleman who thinks he would know. I have been watching this thing with great care, with such advice as I have at my disposal, getting information I could from every quarter, and I am not inclined to say whether it will last for a short time or whether it will last for a long time. All I know is this, that every prediction that has been made up to the present that it is coming to an end has failed. I do not see for the moment the alternative. But what I do see is this: I can see a change in Russia itself, and my hon. Friends there had better bear that in mind.

There is a change in Russia itself; there is a change from the wild extravagant Communism of a year or two years ago, or even a few months ago. There is a recognition—which is a significant one for everybody in this country—that, taking human nature as it is, that system is an impossible one. It is full of moment, it is full of significance, it is full of instruction. I never credit everything that comes from Helsingfors, or even from Reval, about Russia. But read the wireless telegrams that come from Moscow, which are all censored, and which indicate not exactly what the Bolshevik Government believes but what it intends other people to believe about it, and you get there the most remarkable declarations which indicate a complete change in the attitude of the Bolshevik Government to what is called capitalism, towards private enterprise, towards communal effort, to- wards nationalisation. There have been speeches delivered by Lenin, the head of the Government, which might very well have been delivered by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and quite recently he delivered speeches that I am perfectly certain if he had delivered them in a trade union meeting he would not have been allowed to go on. The things he said about the desirability of getting capital into Russia, of introducing the private capitalist with his enterprise, his money, his effort, and also saying "You cannot get him to do it unless you give him suitable reward "—I wish he would deliver that at the Trade Union Congress. I am not at all sure whether there is a Private Property League here or not, but it would be a very good thing to circulate Lenin's speeches as an antidote to the propaganda of the Labour party in this country. Why does he do all these things? Because he begins to realise he has got to trade. He thought he could run his country on some theories of Karl Marx. What does he find? Starvation, famine, and his railways completely out of repair. You cannot patch up locomotives with Earl Marx's doctrines. It was worth while making the experiment in order to prove that. We all knew it, but there are hon. Members here who did not understand it. That is one advantage of this trading agreement.

Some of my hon. Friends here have talked about, this being a recognition of a Socialist Government, that we were shaking hands with murder, when all the time we are simply converting them. This is a gentlemanly process of instruction which has been going on. It is a kind of Borstal system for converting these criminals, as my hon Friend (Major Barnett) described them—I do not describe them as such—into honest, sober, decent citizens, and by-and-by he will find that Lenin is a man after his own heart if he has only a little patience, if he does a little business with him, a little trading, a little interchange of commodities. The moment they begin to realise they cannot run their country except upon the same principles which have brought prosperity to other countries, they will begin to realise that the only way to bring prosperity to Russia is to put an end to their wild schemes. They are able men; they are very able men; I have never doubted that for a moment From the first moment I have bad dealings with them I knew I was dealing with men of great ability, and the only thing that proves they are able men is that they are giving up all these doctrines, and my one appeal is that hon. Gentlemen on the Labour benches should follow their example.

I have been listening to the very excellent and humorous speech of the Prime Minister, in which he has laughed away the fears of those who are under the impression that we were shaking hands with the Bolsheviks and that we were also recognising a Socialist republic. I should like to bring Members of the House back to the fact that the Prime Minister, in his humorous remarks, pointed out that these men, Lenin and Trotsky and the others, were yielding up their principles. From my reading of the things that have been happening in Russia, they have not yielded up any of their principles, but, like the right hon. Gentleman himself, they recognise that, with a world of capitalism around them, it is necessary for them, for purposes of expediency, to trade with capitalism, to recognise at least some of those things that the capitalists desire. You on your part have to recognise some of the things which the Socialists in Russia desire. [HON. MEMBERS: "Communists!"] There is very little difference between Communism and Socialism, and I should also like to point out that there is very little difference between the doctrines which the Prime Minister used to preach in this country and the Socialists of Russia. I should also like to point out that some of the Members who are most hostile to any trading relations with Russia were most hostile' to the Prime Minister himself when he was making those speeches. He was the Trotsky of that time, although they did not know the name then.

I should like to deal with the point raised by the hon. and learned Member for York (Sir J. Butcher). He wished for assurances against the confiscation of investments by certain investors in this country who have invested in Russian stocks, but I should like to ask him, as well as other Members of the House, what guarantee does any other country give to investors? If a British investor invests £100 in French stock, what guarantee has he that in a year it will not be considerably down? He takes his risk, and what we have been told in the past is that the investor or the capitalist was entitled to his profit because he risked his capital. Investors have to run the risk of the fall in the stocks, and, if pushed for money, they have to sell at a loss. The Government do not guarantee investors in their stock against loss. If capitalists have risked their money in Russia, and the revolution has come, they have to stand the risk of losing some of their money, just as they had to do in the Southern States of America when revolution has come. The Bolsheviks of America or of Russia—the leaders in Russia are said to have come from America—have only laid down certain schemes. They had to lay them down in a very definite manner. They had to safeguard themselves, and, consequently, that which is looked upon as a change that is taking place just now, is not a change in their doctrines; it is merely that conditions have changed in the countries round about them. Countries which had been facing them in the most hostile manner are now approaching them, because they realise, as the Prime Minister has said, that Russia must be looked upon as part of the trading world, that we are all necessary to Russia and Russia is necessary to us.

Almost the first speech I made in this House was on the desirability of opening trade relations with Russia, and I hope, with the assurances given by the Prime Minister, all the talk that has gone on is going to cease, and that so far as Russia is concerned—whether you like the doctrines of Karl Marx or not is beside the mark—you have there a large tract of country with rich resources, with a population which is industrious, and whose work is necessary for us, and our work is necessary for them. Of course, the Prime Minister, with his usual humour, tries to create a laugh against the Marxians of Russia by saying that you cannot repair locomotives with the doctrines of Karl Marx. They do not try to do that, any more than the Prime Minister in his earlier days tried to grow grain in this country by his land speeches. It was not the doctrines that were going to make the land free, but the application of the doctrines, and the application of the doctrines of Karl Marx would make a free Russia, just as it would make a free Britain. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO, no!"] Just as it would realise some of the very claims that were put forward by the Prime Minister himself in his earlier days. If those doctrines had been established in those days you would—very probably—here found the hon. and learned Member for York attacking the Prime Minister and wanting to know what guarantees you were going to give the landlords? Consequently the guarantees that are made just now in regard to the trade relationships, so far as you can get them, are all that can be done. It is a question, are you going to trade with a country and are you prepared to recognise them and they you? You have been sitting round a table with Germans trying to hammer out an agreement as to the future rights—one nation with another on an equal footing, looking upon yourselves and they as nations with equal rights; and I am certain that out of these trade relationships that that particular period will come, and having come I hope that the people of this country, the common people, the decent people—as an hon. Member said—outside will recognise that with Russia once again among the productive forces of the world a large amount of the unemployment from which we are suffering is going to disappear, that we will be sending out to Russia from this country that agricultural and railway machinery which she undoubtedly requires; and that a very great impetus is going to be given to work, and to the lessening of our unemployment by the trading relationships with that country.

The Borstal system has certainly much to commend it, but I have never before heard it suggested that those who were undergoing treatment under it were desirable people with whom to do business. I think that the analogy is in every way applicable to the present instance. I listened very carefully to the speech of the Prime Minister, but there was one point of which I am still very doubtful; that is as to the effect of this Trade Agreement. It is the matter about which I addressed a question yesterday to the right hon. Gentleman. What I asked was the effect of the signing of this Trade Agreement on the rights of British subjects to have recourse to the Courts of Justice of this country to have their claims decided with regard to any goods or property coming to this country from Russia which they allege has been stolen or taken from them and which belonged to them in Russia. I asked the Prime Minister yesterday to say whether the signing of this Agreement will prevent British nationals having recourse to the Courts of Justice to enforce their rights in the event of property which may have been stolen or appropriated by the Soviet Government coming within the jurisdiction of the British Courts, if such property was subsequently sold by the Soviet Government under this Trading Agreement. The Under-Secretary of the Board of Trade somewhat disingenuously replied that there was nothing in the Trading Agreement which would prevent the nationals of this country bringing an action to enforce their rights. I need not say that people do not bring actions simply for the pleasure of doing so; they do it in the hope of succeeding in enforcing their claims. I would remind the House of what was said by the President of the Board of Trade on the 22nd December last, when dealing with this Trade Agreement. The right hon. Gentleman said: Agreement recognises the Russian Government as a Sovereign State, for any citizen to go to the Courts of this country to enforce his claims, as the judge will at once say the action cannot be maintained against a Sovereign State which is recognised by the Government of this country. I hope we may know definitely before this Debate ends whether or not the Government is recognised as a Sovereign State by the Government of this country. Only a few weeks ago I had a most pathetic letter from a widow lady who had invested the whole of her property in a mill near Moscow which had been managed by her nephew. This mill she said had been appropriated by the Soviet Government and her whole source of income had been taken away. To-day the mill is being worked by the Russian Government. Suppose goods manufactured in that mill were sent over here as a result of this trade Agreement. If this widow lady went to the Courts and claimed them because they had been made in her mill by her machinery, would she be stopped by the fact that it was the property of a Sovereign State and therefore the action would not lie?

I would like to know whether the Prime Minister's attention has been called to the position of the Bolshevik Economic Mission now in Rome as reported in the Press this morning? That mission, I take it, is a similar one to the mission which will shortly arrive in this country in virtue of the trade agreement. It appears that these gentlemen arrived in Rome with a considerable amount of luggage, and the Italian authorities questioned them as to the contents of the trunks and boxes which they had brought with them. They assured the authorities that the contents were books and wearing apparel, but the Customs authorities in Italy are somewhat suspicious, and it turned out that these trunks and boxes were full of pearls, jewels, Persian carpets, and things of that kind.

That has been officially denied by the Commissar, according to a report in an evening paper.

That is what was stated this morning in the Press. I only wish to know if some precaution will be taken with regard to the sealed bags, and the diplomatic privileges which are accorded to these trade representatives under the Agreement. The Prime Minister asked at what point those like my hon. Friend behind me would say that trade should be commenced with Russia. We know, however, that trade always has to some extent been proceeding with Russia, and there is nothing to prevent that going on at any time. What my hon. Friend and I myself are thinking about is the recognition of the Russian Government by this Government. By all means let individuals trade if they can, but I am still at a loss to understand what is the object of this Agreement. There is nothing in Russia with which to trade Russia is starving. It is true that she wants our engines, our ploughs, and many other things, but she has nothing with which to pay for them. There is only one thing which will constitute a basis for trade with Russia, and that is a change in the Russian Government. When there is a sane Russian Government, a Government that will inspire confidence, people whose word can be relied upon, trade will begin without all this artificial fostering. Whatever this Agreement does, if anything, it stimulates the existing Russian Government, which is what we want to get rid of. You will never get trade with Russia on a proper basis, or restore Russia to its pre-War state as the granary of the world, unless you get rid of the present system of Government there, and I object to this Agreement because it does something to maintain that Government for a longer time than it otherwise would be likely to last.

The fact of the matter is that this Agreement has been signed, and the Prime Minister says that the avowed intention of the Government has been in the direction of a trading agreement for long enough—well over a year. The Prime Minister, in that part of his speech which I heard, used the usual argument that trade with Russia is going in time to cure unemployment, at any rate partly, in this country, and that eventually there will be trade between this country and the great stretches of Russia in Europe and in Asia. I would like to put it to the Prime Minister that there is an even higher reason why we should in the first place sign this Trade Agreement, and why, if the Agreement is kept, and the Russians really drop, as they promise, their propaganda against us in Asia, we should go even a step further and attempt actively to assist them. The people there are a young and virile people that has not yet been spoiled by civilisation, a peasantry—[ Interruption ]. They have not got the seeds of race suicide. Every doctor will tell you the result of living in cities in the Western countries of Europe. It is not an ideal existence, and brings many evils in its train. This virile people, living on the land, 80 per cent. of them peasants, occupying a great stretch of Asia rich in natural resources, has yet produced giants in science, literature and art, and altogether is a people that undoubtedly has a future. Anyone who has watched the evolution of Russia will know that they will settle down and modify the régime very much. The Prime Minister has pointed out the way the ragged edges of Communism have already been smoothed down. Cannot the Prime Minister and hon. and right hon. Gentlemen see that it is to our interest if we can to do away with the suspicions of these people and if possible try to win their ultimate friendship. Lenin, Trotsky and the rest of them will die one day, but the Russia people will remain. They are the greatest single people in Europe and they are the second greatest people in Asia and the two combined, Russia in Europe and Russia in Asia, will be a predominant factor in world politics. We may have troublous times in front of us as an Empire. There are dangers in the East. There might possibly be dangers in the West. A friendly Russia to us may be extremely valuable in the future. The French still have a fear of a militarist revival in Germany. There are some-people who say that the Hohenzollerns or some similar princely family will reestablish a military régime. Need we be afraid of any militarists in Germany with a friendly democratic Russia to the East? Dare they raise their hands? That is the problem you have to look to. This is, more important than getting a little trade to-day. It is more important than the interests of a few bondholders here or people who hold oil shares there. Those people undoubtedly have a future before them. Many of the extravagances of Communism will be dropped. They will settle down and become a great people, as the French Republic has become great, and it will be to our advan- tage—even now it is not too late—if we can hold out the hand of friendship. I have always advocated this policy, and I believe they will keep their bargain with us. It may be necessary to take the next step forward, that is to give de facto recognition. I am doubtful still whether it will be possible to trade without it on a large scale. I think we shall be able to back up our merchants better if they get into difficulties in trading with Russia if we have full official relationship with them, at any rate if we give them recognition as a de facto Government. That will be our next step. It may come soon or in some little time, but that is what we should work forward to as a deliberate British policy.

In the past we have had deliberate policies which sometimes succeeded and sometimes failed. I think we should deliberately adopt the policy, with proper safeguards and trying it out by results, of cultivating friendly relations with the great Slav people of Russia. I am thinking now some years ahead. I am thinking of the possibility we cannot yet put away from us of having to face another world war, and should it come a friendly Russia may just turn the scale in favour of whoever has cultivated their friendship. Let us look well ahead. They are a people with a great future. We are a people who have a great past and have still a great future. I do not see why the two great democracies should not take hands. They have had a troublesome time. They have been through agonies in the last few years. We have tried annoying them, we have tried attacking them and overthrowing them by force. Let us try the effect of friendship. Let us hold out our hands and say, "We have been through our troubles. We have had our own revolutions. We know your troubles. We will try to help you if you will play the game by us." The Russians are a generous people, and if you hold out your hand to Russia they will hold out both their hands to you. They may be cruel and primitive in some respects, but they are an extremely generous people, and quick to respond in that way. In spite of their faults, if we could be friendly and sympathetic with them now our children may bless us.

The hon. and gallant Member has produced rather a strange argument for us to support this Russian trade agreement. He argues that if we were to be friends with Russia it would be quite certain that we should be safe from any Germany which may arise in the future greater than it is now. Unfortunately, it is only three years ago that Russia, this very Government with whom we are now making this agreement, betrayed us and our Allies, and caused the greatest disaster to the British Army in 1918 that we have ever experienced. It was entirely owing to the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk and the betrayal of the Allies carried out by this Government and these statesmen who are now parties to this trade agreement with our Government, that we had the terrible disaster in 1918 which very nearly lost the War, and very nearly altered the whole history of the world. I think the Prime Minister has also been answered by the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Neil Maclean), because the hon. Member said what Lenin has already said, that the only reason why the Bolsheviks are going into this agreement is because they think that they can bring about their ends in very much the same spirit that the Prime Minister tries to get us to agree to this agreement. The argument put forward by the Prime Minister is that we are going to convert the Bolsheviks to our system. Lenin and Company say quite opposite. The only reason why they want this trade agreement is that they may bring about a world revolution, which they consider is the only way by which they can make their system a success.

We do not want to go over many of the arguments that we had when this subject was discussed before, but I suggest that the argument which is produced on every Bolshevik soap-box in this country, that by trading with Russia we are going to do away with unemployment or greatly to alleviate it is absolutely absurd. Our trade with Russia before the War was a very small part of our trade with the world as a whole. In 1913 our imports from Russia were £40,000,000, which was, I think, between 5 and 6 per cent. of our total imports from abroad. Our exports to Russia were only 3 per cent. of our total exports to the world. During the last year we have actually done trade with Russia as regards imports amounting to 50 per cent. of our trade in 1913. We imported from Russia or from those countries that used to be Russia £20,000,000 worth of imports. That is 50 per cent. of what we did before the War. That is extremely good trade to do with any country after a war like that through which we have passed. Therefore I suggest to the Labour party and to their adherents in the country that they should take these points into consideration. I am sure they do not wish to misrepresent the situation. They should remember that before the War our trade with Russia was a small part of our trade with the whole world, and that we are doing now half as much as we did before the War, and therefore any recrudescence of trade with that country would have a very small effect upon the serious problem of unemployment that exists to-day.

The Prime Minister says that by trading with Russia we shall get Russia back into a civilised condition of mind. I can only say that I believe that the vast majority of his Conservative supporters entirely disagree with this Russian Agreement. He is trying to ride three horses now. He has ridden two horses very well, the Coalition Liberal and the Coalition Unionist, and they have gone well together. Now he is trying to bring in the Labour party and is throwing a sop to them. He will find that the circus rider who tries to ride three horses at the one time generally has a fall. He has tried his Conservative supporters in the country absolutely to the extreme in trading with these men whom they consider to be the biggest scoundrels in the world, and a Government with whom it is impossible to sign an agreement because when you sign an agreement you expect the people on the other side to be people who will carry out their bargain. In the case of the Bolshevist Government we know from their statements that they regard this Agreement only as a means of propaganda and of increasing their prestige throughout the world. They can go to their own supporters and say, "If the great British Empire"—whom they regard as the greatest people in the world, even greater than America, as a great many people in Europe also think— "make an agreement with us, then the whole world will have to trade with us." We are not going to increase our trade by this Agreement. People are now trading with Russia. There is nothing to prevent any merchant who can make sure of getting paid with goods or in kind from trading with Russia. This semi-recognition of the Russian Government is a very dangerous thing. It will exacerbate our Allies and the United States. It is almost recognising them as a de facto Government to have this trading Agreement. We shall get nothing out of this that is worth having. I cannot say that we are going to get anything as regards prestige out of it, or that we can induce the Russian Government to be friendly to us by any such Agreement. I do not want to be friendly with them, nor, I am certain, do most of the Conservative supporters of His Majesty's Government at the present time.

It is possible to do very good business with a very bad Government. I do not support this agreement with any desire to be in good odour with the Labour party, which, I am afraid, it would be rather late in the day for me to accomplish, and I only say so because of the speech to which the House has just listened. One need not go back to the days of the Roman Emperor to see that when trade is carried on you cannot look at the money to see through whose hands it has passed or what has been its history. It is true that Russia at present is doing very little trade, but its natural resources, which are inexhaustible, remain. I confess I want to see this country tap those resources. Napoleon described this country as a nation of shopkeepers, and I want to look at this for a moment from the shopkeeper's point of view. An hon. Gentleman said there would be no advantage in this. Speaking as a sort of representative of India, if I may pretend to be that on Indian trade, let us take the case of the great tea trade, an industry carried on with British capital, in British possessions, owned by British subjects, and worked by British-Indian labour. The cessation of trade relations with Russia has most seriously affected that very great trade, in which millions of money are invested, and in which many hundreds of thousands of innocent and industrious Indian fellow subjects are usefully employed. The tea which used to go in vast quantities to Russia has ceased to go there. I want to see that tea go there again. I hope I am not wanting in a proper scruple in this matter, but I do not know that we need look exactly to the source of the money with which MM. Lenin and Trotsky pay for the tea. Heaven knows, I abhor them as much as anybody in this House can. I believe I hate them more than anybody, because I know something of the old Russian Government, and I know how the character it had in this country was entirely due to the writings of sensational novelists and the unreasonable prejudices of a certain class against an autocratic Government. Of course, the only thing which unites us here in this House, the only thing in which we art all agreed, is in the worship of democracy. It is possible, nevertheless, that different forms of government have their merits and, knowing as I do how well adapted the late Russian Government was to the country over which it governed, I deplore the domination of these two scoundrels more than anybody else can.

Because, however, the people in Russia are suffering from this incubus, is that any reason for imposing on them the still greater misfortune of the cessation of trade? Are we, because they are debarred from dealing with the greatest trading nation in the world, to impose on them the greater misfortune of cutting them off from that golden stream? I cannot for the life of me see it. We shall be adding immensely to the injury and misery of the Russian people—whom I love with all my heart, and I believe the Russian peasant to be absolutely the most faithful and certainly the most religious creature in the world. How illogical it is, with all respect to hon. Members who think differently, to argue that because these people have fallen into these misfortunes that this great nation should increase those misfortunes by refusing to do business with them. That folly seems to me to be increased if we perform that vulgar and proverbial operation of cutting off our nose to spite our face by withdrawing our commerce from these people.

My hon. Friend said that by this agreement the British nation is recognising the Soviet Government as the de facto Government of Russia. It is necessary that we recognise them as the de facto Government, when they already are that? You may deplore it as you like—Heaven knows, I do—but they are there and they are the de facto Government. If we say, "Well, the Russian people do not support them," there are people in this country—I have heard them in this House—who say that this House does not represent the British nation. There is not a single man defeated in the last election who does not hold that view. I have heard most distinguished occupants of the front Bench opposite suggest that this House should commit the happy dispatch and go to the country because it does not represent the country, although elected the day before yesterday. The same argument applies to Russia. Heaven knows, I do not think the Soviet Government represents the Russian people, but it has as good a claim to say that it does as we have to say that we represent the British people. I submit that that is so, because though, here it is quite true you have democratic election, in a country which has never had it and has not reached the same stage, you must assume, for the purpose of argument, that the Government which maintains itself in power is generally approved by the people of that country, in the same way as you must assume that the House of Commons, as elected in this country, represents the people here. I do not think the Soviet Government does represent the Russian people, but how am I to know that? It is necessary for us as a matter of business, of politics, of trade, to assume that a de facto Government does represent the people, whatever that Government's tyranny or cruelty.

I believe this to be a sound business proposition. We traded with the French after the Revolution, when it was under the man who, no doubt, was described as the Corsican despot, the tyrant, the murderer and all the rest of it. For the life of me I cannot see why we should not trade with Russia.

I am well aware that I am crossing swords with a professor, but in spite of his professions I say that this country did trade with Napoleon, and there was an immense illicit trade with him. The hon. Member deals with protocols and agreements; I am dealing entirely with hard facts. There has been right through a certain amount of trade going on with Russia. Those who go to the city every day, if they can speak Russian or read it, will see the boxes and goods that are coming here from Moscow. If goods came from Moscow we may conclude that goods are going from London to Moscow. But that is not quite the same thing as the position opened by this trade agreement. I hope I have made it quite clear that I am not an admirer of Messrs. Lenin and Trotsky. Because extremes meet, the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) and I seem to have come together through much tribulation. We are told that the principles of the League of Nations are to govern all politics and all trade, that the hon and the lamb will he down together, and that anything like selfishness is to be utterly abolished off the face of the earth, and we are told that Germany, whom we defeated, is to be allowed to appeal to the League of Nations, that is, to the Noble Lord, the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) and two or three others gathered together, against ourselves, and yet this nation, which was our Ally in the War and did us the greatest possible service in the days of the Empire, which, until the revolution, was the most valuable Ally we had, is to be cast aside. Because Russia has fallen upon evil days and because its splendour is dimmed and its sceptre has fallen, because it happens to have come into the hands of the friends of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull, are we therefore to wash our hands of the great Russian people and say, "We will not trade with you; your hands are bloodstained?" How illogical that is. If these men do not represent the Russian peasants, we shall be behaving still more cruelly and unkindly in refusing to trade with them. From every point of view that I can think of, no case can be made out for visiting on the heads of the Russian people the crimes—and they are crimes that cry out to Heaven—of the men who at the present moment are their rulers.

I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for giving me the opportunity of following the hon. Baronet who has just spoken. The idea of his speech from beginning to end is that if the Government had failed to make this trade agreement with the present rulers in Moscow, we might have offended the Russian people. I think it would have been well, especially after the eulogies we have heard during recent years on the principle of self-determination, if the Government had suggested to the Government of Moscow that they should first of all take a plébiscite of their people as to whether they had the authority either to make an agreement with a foreign State or any right whatever to represent the Russian people in any negotiations whatever. I have not had the experience of administration, perhaps, of the hon. Baronet who has just spoken, but I had the good fortune, or the bad fortune, as the case may be, to travel right through that country, from Vladivostok, through Siberia, right over the Urals, within some 300 miles of Petrograd, and to visit the centres of industry and talk with the peasants in their markets in many of the towns of that immense territory, the extent of which is nearly three Canadas; and anyone who suggests that the Government of that country, except in so far as it is a terrorism, represents in the slightest degree the people of that country is making a very sad mistake. Those who think that in making this agreement we are making friends with Russia will one day discover that it is the greatest mistake they have ever made in their lives. There is not the slightest doubt that a great deal of money has been spent by the Moscow Government in the agitation carried on in this country, suggesting that it is the absence of trade with Russia that caused our unemployment here. Anyone who knows Lenin knows that he is capable of a scheme of that description. As the Prime Minister has said, he is probably one of the greatest minds that we have in the world at present, and he has calculated to a fraction just the kind of agitation that is wanted. There is an agitation going on, on different lines, suited to the American people in America. There is the same sort of propaganda, though it takes a different shape, in France, and the same thing in another shape in Germany. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) says to-night that this agreement is now no good. It is accomplished, and it is therefore of no further use unless you go on to recognition, and he tells you that you will get no credit until you take the next step. That is the whole scheme from one end to another.

I did not interrupt the hon. and gallant Gentleman. Anyone who knows anything of Russia knows that there is complete disorganisation. Up to two years ago the peasants tilled the land, but the towns, starving, doing no work except politics and fighting and killing one another, could not possibly produce sufficient to live upon, and they levied requisitions upon the peasants. During 1919 they succeeded in getting a good part of the peasants' property, and naturally in 1920 the peasant produced nothing except just what would keep his family. From one end of Russia to another millions of acres of land have gone out of cultivation during the last two years. Why should a peasant till land in order that a squad of Red Guards may come down and take possession of everything they can lay their hands upon, all "for the good of the country "—a fine phrase. The peasant has come to the conclusion that as long as he will go on supplying the towns with food this internecine struggle will go on. Beyond the stolen jewels and fabrics of one sort and another taken from what is called the bourgeoisie they have alsolutely nothing. They are bankrupt, and if the political sanitary cordon of which the Prime Minister talked about had been maintained for another year the system must have broken down. But by agitation, by spending plenty of money in propaganda in our country and in every other country—millions of roubles have been spent here, that is a well-known fact to those who are secret agents and those who are not secret agents. Millions of money have been spent here. To suggest all our commercial difficulties, all our unemployment, all our industrial difficulties would disappear if you would only open trade with illimitable Russia is a mere fake. And the hon. and gallant Member (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) admits it now, that unless you go a stage further and give recognition, this trade agreement is no good whatever. That was the whole idea of the thing from beginning to end. I do not wish to stand in the way of this Agreement in the slightest degree if the Government have made up their minds on the policy, but you cannot have the thing one way and the other. Either you recognise the Soviet power and you enter into commercial relations with them—because no private individual owns anything in Russia—no man can call his soul his own, let alone his wealth. Therefore, if you have decided to enter into full commercial relationships with them, I do not see how you can honestly trade with them unless you give them recognition. I agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull that there is no half-way house.

What does full recognition mean, because you cannot help thinking of the whole history of the thing? The hon. Baronet the Member for East Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees) says, "What does it matter?" I think I remember reading in my school book, "I will trade with you, I will sell to you, but I will neither live with you nor pray with you." That seems to be the essence of his morals in politics. "What does it matter to me," he says, "whether a man murdered his friend to get the money he is going to pay me for his goods? That is of no consequence to me. He can rob and call whom he likes. What does it matter?" We have got to a high state of civilisation when we get expression of views like that in the British House of Commons. He views the situation apart from the murder of our own nationals. It is well-known that when Messrs. Trotsky and Lenin first started their campaign in Petrograd they made an attack on the British Legation. Captain Crombie, who tried to defend the bit of British territory that the biggest ruffian State in South America recognises as neutral territory. He tried to keep these ruffians out of the British Legation. They murdered him in cold blood under the flag of the State to which the hon. Baronet and I belong, and hung his body out of the window of the Legation; and for five or six days Lenin and Trotsky, Trotsky particularly and his followers, riddle the body of the British representative with bullets.

One night in this House the hon. and gallant Member himself justified the murder on the ground that the Soviet Power had in their possession information that Captain Cronbie had carried on an illicit correspondence with the enemies of the Soviet Government.

I am in the recollection of the House. Before I apologise to the hon. and gallant Member, I will look through the OFFICIAL REPORT of the House again. I would ask the representative of the Foreign Office, is there another State in the world, which had murdered your representative and given you no apology, which had even stolen your Government property in Petrograd, wherever they could find it, and possess it to-day—is there any other State in the world you would make an agreement of amity with, except Russia? You know very well that you put such a State—not the State, but the particular participators in the crimes to which I have referred—outside the possibility of human relationships for the time being. I always separate the Russian people from this miserable, tyrannical oligarchy that for the moment holds sway in Moscow. I never connect one with the other. I have always found the Russian people, peasant, proletariat, and even bourgeoisie, as they are called, hospitably, kindly, and friendly disposed towards Englishmen with whom they came into contact. I am not protesting against the Agreement. I am only saying that I cannot imagine that if it were not merely to stem the tide of propaganda on the part of the Labour men, alleging that you are creating unemployment by refusing to trade with Russia, and, as it were, spite that miserable stunt, you would never have dreamed of entering into such an arrangement. Of course, I admit in a democratic country like ours, it is possible you ought to stem off at times things of that description; that you ought not to be prevented from carrying on your democratic policy in this country to get us over the difficulty between war and peace; that you ought to stave off a miserable, party, sectional stunt of that description if you can; and if you think the agitation of these hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway worth such a thing. That is your business. But most emphatically I issue my protest against it.

Men who were friendly to this country were not the Bolsheviks in power in Moscow. The men who stood in the trenches along the Eastern line, and risked their lives at the time to which the hon. Baronet referred a moment ago, were not the men with whom you are making this agreement. As a matter of fact, these men were in the pay of our enemies at that time. Ludendorff in his book says that the General Staff of Germany took upon themselves a grave responsibility when they organised and paid for the return of Messrs. Lenin and Trotsky to Russia. My hon. and gallant Friend wants to pretend that these were the men who were manning the Russian lines against our enemies. They were always the friends of our enemies. It is extremely doubtful whether they were not even the enemies of their own country, as represented by the disgraceful Treaty they made at Brest-Litovsk with the German victors. It is questionable altogether whether they are not traitors to their country, and whether you are not laying yourselves open to the possibility, when justice overtakes them, of landing yourselves as participants in their crimes.

Aviation

I have been waiting for some days to put one or two rather important questions to the Government on the matter of civil aviation. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Well, there should be half an hour reserved for a discussion on the question of the day. I will put my questions as shortly as possible to the Secretary to the Treasury. What about the progress of civil aviation; and, secondly, what is the position of airships at present? We understand from the public Press that a statement has been made by Lord Londonderry, Under-Secretary for Air, that some proposals have been made with restarting civil aviation in this country, and I want my right hon. Friend to tell us quite definitely the arrangements that have been made, and whether they are really of such a character as to lead us to hope that civil aviation will once more take its place as it used to do in the full working of the air service of Great Britain? We only know from Lord Londonderry's statement that a couple of machines, or two companies, have started to fly between London and Paris. What are the arrangements? What is the subsidy? We have not yet had any enlightenment, and I do think this House is entitled to know how the matter stands. The House has expressed a very decided opinion as to civil aviation being fostered, partly because of the work it can itself do, and, secondly, because of the service side and of the very real reserve it can be to military aviation in time of war.

We understand that £60,000 has been reserved to the Vote for subsidies. Is that going to be expended, or more? Is such expenditure not merely going to keep these two or three machines flying in the air, or is it likely to put the industry on a basis—on the constructive side—that it will be able once more to rear its head? There is a French subsidy of 33,000,000 francs. Not only so, but the French Government have provided that on certain days of the week at the Government aerodromes the free use of machines, of petrol, and the aerodromes for every soldier in the French Army who had flown in the Great War. Is anything of the kind being done here in order that our aviators may not lose touch with the air, and their old-time practice be continued? May I also commend a good practice of the French, and that is that they insure all the men that practice for 50,000 francs. Is anything of the kind being done here? These things might be well worth considering, for the result in France, to pub it quite frankly, is that civil aviation is not merely a going but a prosperous concern! During the year—to show their extraordinary advance, and the collapse here—during 1919 there were 333,000 miles flown in France; in 1920–989,000. In the former year the number of passengers carried was 729; last year it was 6,697. Goods, in 1919, carried totalled £31,600; last year £277,000. Above all, air mails in 1919 were £1,048; in 1920—£13,581. Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any indication that in any of these directions progress made here, or any indication that similar progress is ever likely to be made? The main point is whether the scheme which has been trumpetted forth as likely to put civil aviation on a better basis is going to do any good for construction. It is no use having flying machines unless the constructive, staff are retained in Eng- land—the designers, the controllers and the workmen. It was stated a fortnight ago that many of our great firms were closed down, and that the designers were going to Japan to build an air service there. We want to keep them here unless the Government is going to say that civil aviation is purely unnecessary to this country. I hope I shall get an assurance from my right hon. Friend that not merely this beggarly £60,000—beggarly as compared with the million set aside by France, but at least £200,000 will be devoted in this country to this purpose. I am not asking for a larger expenditure of public money. It is perfectly possible by a rearrangement of the amounts of money reserved for aviation to provide for £150,000 to £200,000 for civil aviation in the current year.

Another question which I desire to put is from a military point of view even more important. The House will remember that the Secretary of State for Air said we were going to give up our airships, and anybody could have them for the asking—the ships, the ground plant and the spares included, although we have spent so much money on them. I want to plead with the Government to postpone anything of the kind until the Secretary for Air has returned from Egypt and can give a little more consideration to the matter. I am told we have from £7,000,000 to £10,000,000 worth of property connected with airships which is to be given away. We have two excellent German ships L71 and L74, R33 and a magnificent new ship R36 just completed. It cost nearly £400,000, and its trials are taking place in the next few days. There is an airship which can carry 50 passengers and 5 tons of mails to Egypt in 2½ days—the quickest means of getting to Egypt and by carrying few passengers she could take non-stop runs from here to Japan. Is all that work to be scrapped and given away to some private concern which desires to make a speculation with it? Then America has just bought one of our latest airships, I think for about £400,000. Surely that ought to have been kept for the Air Service, and the Air Department might well have utilised it for experiments. Then we have a large number of airship engines—the House may be aware that an engine of a slightly different type from an aeroplane engine is better for an airship. We have several hundreds of these, for which we did not pay a penny. We got them from our late enemies. Are they all going to be thrown to anyone who wants to take up this wonderful offer that the Government has made? I do not know whether it is necessary to get a cable sent to the Secretary of State to ask whether this cannot be postponed. Applications have already been made to the Air Ministry by speculators who think they see a possibility of getting this material cheap, and of starting some service of their own. The main point of view with regard to airships is that of the Admiralty. The Secretary of State told us that the Admiralty were quite willing that airships should be given up. That is true to the extent that they are willing that they should be given up because the Air Council has told them that there is no option in the matter. Until quite recently the Air Council used to include in their Votes sums of money for airships for the current year. They believed then that is was desirable to continue experimenting with regard to airships, but that has now been vetoed because of lack of funds. The Admiralty in their memorandum published the other day stated that them up if it came to a choice between airships and aeroplanes. It is quite clear that if the money were forthcoming they would want them. Then General Sykes, the Controller of Civil Aviation, in a lecture to the Institute of Transport a day or two ago, said:

I think the House should be grateful to the hon. Baronet, who has taken so much interest in this question, for having focussed attention on the extraordinary action of the Government, in view of their action on the one side and their inaction on the other. The hon. Baronet has pointed out that our own civil aviation is dead, and that we have scrapped our airships. Only a year ago we were told that the whole of our future in the air, on which we were then spending some £18,000,000 or £20,000,000 a year, and on which we are still spending £10,000,000 or £15,000,000, depended on the maintenance of civil aviation. Only a year ago we were told that, although no one could foresee the value of airships for peace, one thing was certain, namely, that an airship had flown to America—and this of an obsolete type. America has bought our newer one, and indeed I was concerned in the handing of it over to that country. A vast possibility was there for research at a very modest expenditure. And yet within a year we find all the expenditure on the military side going on and civil aviation absolutely at an end and the airships scattered. It is a most extraordinary thing, and even at half-past eleven o'clock it is well to draw attention to this extraordinary state of affairs. The British Government has never done such an absurd thing before. We banked on one thing in 1919, reasserted it in 1920 and scrapped the whole lot in 1921. That is the way minor and unimportant States act, but it is not the way the British Empire has been built up. I know the Patronage Secretary is at a disadvantage in replying to this because he speaks for the Secretary of State who is many thousands of miles away, but it would be just as absurd to try to maintain the maritime supremacy of Britain in time of war without a mercantile marine as it is to try to maintain an aerial force for military purposes without some form of civil aviation. I go further and say if the hon. and gallant Gentleman, instead of being the echo of a Minister far away, were himself put in charge of this great Department and as the Minister were to envisage it as a real definite problem, I have no doubt that he would tell the House, as any man would do, that it is a ridiculous thing to scrap all the intelligence, all the brains, all the effort that has been put in a three years' intensive struggle in order to save money here while probably he will spend far more in building it up in years to come. I wish him well in trying to improve matters.

The House, I hope, will grant me a certain amount of indulgence in attempting to reply on an extremely important and difficult subject on behalf of a Minister who is absent. I am deeply grateful to my hon. Friend (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks) for having supplied me with the main point which he intended to raise, and I have therefore been in a position to obtain from the Ministry replies which I hope he will consider if not completely satisfactory yet adequate to the occasion. The only reason why there is a necessary limitation to the activities of the Department is due to their having conformed to the orders of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to cut down as low as possible in every possible direction. The Estimates for the whole of the Ministry were three times promised, twice by the Secretary of State himself and once again at a later date by the Cabinet. In fact it is a signal example of economy having on this occasion led to Debate and the Minister finds himself defending economies instead of demanding further expenditure I would also put before the House this consideration. This Ministry is at present involved in laying down its capital outlay. Those who discuss the Ministry are perhaps inclined to forget that it cannot be regarded in the same light as the two older Services. The Sandhurst of the Army, and the Dartford of the Navy are existing concerns. The capital has been spent in years gone by and it is only the interest of those enterprises that comes up for annual criticism. In the case of the Air Service they have all that to do and consequently a lot of the expenditure which the House has granted this year can be described justly as capital outlay.

The general policy which covers the points raised by the hon. Baronet and my right hon. Friend are of course the two most vital in the whole of the utility services and it becomes necessary for the Ministry to decide, in view of the limited amount of money to be spent in future, whether the victory, as shown by war experience, lay with the heavier than air machine or the lighter than air machine and having, as it is pretty clear, decided on expert advice in favour of the heavier than air machine, they have had to trim their policy accordingly, but they have made a very special effort to concentrate upon preserving the highest possible quality of personnel. At this time of night to attempt to remind the House even of the history of the airship would be a great mistake and almost an impertinence. The subject must be divided into two heads, the experience gained in peace time and in war time. In war time it must be again considered in the light of offensive and defensive action. I think, comparatively speaking, for purposes of offence the airship is more or less a failure. It may be maintained for purposes of defence. It is open to doubt and future experiment would be, if possible, most desirable. In the discussion of this subject the sister Service, the Admiralty, came first and chiefly into play, and as is natural and as has been shown by the Memorandum referred to by the hon. Baronet, the closest consultation has been taken between the two Ministries. The hon. Baronet suggested that the Admiralty were forced into a decision between the airships and the aeroplanes to a certain extent by the exigencies of the times. The money necessary for maintaining a large airship service suitable either for further and wider experiments is an extremely costly enterprise, and bearing that in mind I cannot think that the House will complain of the decision which the Admiralty have arrived at, influenced almost entirely by financial considerations, that of the two they would rather go without an airship service than suffer in any way from a shortage of aeroplanes. The arguments which led their Lordships to that decision it would be unnecessary for me to lay before the House, but one may sum it up by saying that apart from their lack of mobility and general vulnerability in time of war, the importance of the financial factor in this question became so great that it was clear that this factor must be the deciding one. We found ourselves, therefore, in possession of a certain number of airships, and the difficulty was to decide what practical course to adopt as to their further utilisation or disposal. The present fleet consists of four ships of the R type and two German Zeppelins. In addition to that, they have a very fine new ship being built for America, which I think the House has already congratulated my right hon. Friend for having so creditably disposed of on behalf of the nation.

I would never have done it had I known you were going to sell all the rest.

And another ship of similar type but of older date which is being retained and used for the training of the American crew which will take R38 across the water when it is complete.

The first proposal of the Secretary of State was to ask the House for £250,000 for the purpose of experiments with these ships, but he has been brought by the logic of events and the experience of facts to the conclusion that that sum of money would only be a drop in the ocean, that to spend it in further experiments would lead to very little practical results, and that if the service is maintained and experiments are continued on such a scale as to be of practical value or likely to produce practical results a great deal more money than £250,000 would have to be asked for from the British taxpayer. He therefore, possibly at the risk of being accused of being vacillating in his policy, but I submit to the House showing very exceptional strength of mind by being able to alter it with such determination, decided to abandon that proposal, and, instead of what he considered would be waste expenditure on this very tentative form of experiment, to devote this money to the encouragement of civil aeroplane transport companies, and the transfer of some part of this sum of money from the civil experiments with airships to the cross-channel aeroplane service is therefore now the proposed plan. We shall therefore find a sum of money which we hope will be greater than that for which the hon. Baronet has asked available to maintain at least one efficient cross-channel service.

There are many forms in which this further encouragement to civil aviation may take place. It was with the object of ascertaining the most useful and practicable method of encouraging the aircraft industry that a very important Committee was set up a few weeks ago. That Committee has arrived at what may be described as a temporary tentative agreement with the two firms who in spite of considerable difficulties have been doing what they can from the patriotic point of view as well as from the political point of view to assist us in keeping these experiments going as long as it was humanly and financially possible to do so. It is not possible to say anything more about that temporary agreement than this: though the contracts are still unsigned there is great hope that these two firms will find it possible to maintain a service during this summer; as soon as the details are settled they will be published; that in the meantime the firms have undertaken to keep the service going; and there is no doubt that the temporary arrangement-settled upon will enable us to hold together in those firms all that precious material and personnel which are still available until such time as the Secretary of State arrives back in this country. I hope that his arrival will synchronise with the final report of the Committee which is very near the stage of completion. The scheme, however, goes further than this, and it is hoped to be able to continue the cross-channel aeroplane services on a stable basis by the aid of substantial Government grants, which will be continued for several years. These grants will be found with the present limits of the Civil Aviation Vote.

On the subject of civil aviation generally, perhaps I might be allowed to say a few words, and I propose to deal with the question asked with regard to the subject of a subsidy. To enable any scheme of civil aviation to be successful you must get the public to finance it, and it seems difficult to get that until you have the public confidence in the service behind you. The comparison with the French subsidised service is, I think, a little far-fetched, and would lead us into a course which probably the House would not approve of if it were carried to its logical conclusion. For instance, the French system of paying subsidies is rapidly tending towards a French nationalised civil aviation service, in which you will find that the word "civil" will eventually drop out and the word "military" take its place. That I do not think the country wants. The policy of the Ministry has been so far, and will continue to be, one of of minimum State assistance sufficient for the encouragement of private enterprise. The hon. Member raised the question of whether construction generally would not suffer enormously from the partial stagnation of this side of the work. Under the Vote granted by this House, the Ministry is being allowed sums of money on account of research and experiment in construction, and although they will not reap the full advantage which would be derived from several flourishing civil concerns making the machines, yet without these outside agencies they will, of course, devote extra attention to the military construction side. Then the public dislike of this method of transit must not be forgotten. In this country, where journeys are naturally short, the advantages gained in time are not very great, and the weather conditions seem to be so bad as to make air transit accompanied by considerable discomfort. This is proved by the fact that the airships which are now practically on offer to any firm free, gratis and for nothing do not seem to attract the commercial community, though I am glad to inform the House that several tentative offers have been received within the last few days. This seems to show that service even in an airship, far less in an aeroplane, is still far from popular. I would just say that the offer of airships to any company which will undertake to operate them stands open to 30th April, which will be a good deal after the return of the Secretary of State, and there is some hope that if the offers, already referred to, are persevered with, that the time will be extended.

Does that mean that no actual gift to anybody will be made until the Secretary of State returns?

No, Sir, it does not mean that, but as the offer has already been open for a good time, and until the last few days nobody has shown any inclination to come forward, I do not think that the date will be held to limit unfairly this very generous offer, as my hon. Friend seems to think.

I will now deal with the suggestion that the sum of £200,000 for two years should be devoted to civil aviation, and I would remind hon. Members that we have now at the disposal of the Minister the sum, which it is hoped, will be greater than that mentioned for the purposes of the development on the civil aeroplane transport side of the work. The House will be asked to grant this sum annually for five years, but at no time will the total of £1,000,000 allotted to civil aviation in the last two Air Estimates be exceeded, and if during the period the public can be satisfied that it is good expenditure, there is very little doubt that there will be a long enough period to suit the hon. Member's desire, and that the fullest and widest experiments will be made in that time. When, however, the hon. Member comes to the suggestion that £250,000 for two years is an adequate amount to pay for experiments in airship services, I am forced to draw his attention to one or two difficulties which I think will dispose of his theory. I am informed that to run anything like a service of airships over a prolonged route, which, I think, is admitted to be the sort of journey which an airship is particularly suitable to accomplish—such as from England to Egypt and from Egypt to Mesopotamia or on to India—to run a service of such a character, without any irregularity, would at once involve the permanent commissioning of a large number of these great airships. The House knows what such an expenditure would mean in capital outlay. To come to a much smaller subject, to run one airship continuously, even on a reasonably short route—say, from here to Berlin or to any point in Europe—and to be always certain that one ship will be ready to start on a given day, and arrive eventually at the other end, would involve an expenditure for one year alone on one airship—or on one airship service, for more than one airship would be required to ensure that one airship would always be available—would come to a great deal more money than the hon. Gentleman suggested to enable the service to make experiments for two years. I think it is quite clear that while putting before the House all the difficulties in regard to asking the taxpayers for money for such purposes. But it is also clearly important that we should not exaggerate, because in announcing the determination of the Government, we hope that the public will not be frightened entirely off the ground by the use of excessive figures. The hon. Member also asked me about the question of mails, and the answer is quite simple. So far, night flying is not a completely acquired art. That art is very necessary to suit this particular purpose, and until regularity, safety and punctuality, over a given route at night has been sustained, it would be unreasonable to ask the Post Office to send all their mails by air. If small quantities only of the mails are sent by air the cost must be higher than if they were sent by rail or sea transport. The hon. Baronet closed his remarks with the suggestion that this money for continuing experiments with airships might be found from the bricks and mortar of the building Vote. I have endeavoured to prove that we are devoting more money than he has anticipated to the object he desires, but this gives me an opportunity of dealing in reply with this Vote and justifying the scheme for the training school for mechanics. An air service requires a highly skilled personnel and as it is found that skilled artisans will not join the forces in sufficient, numbers because they desire more liberty and continuous employment or higher wages, it has been found necessary to take in boys for training as mechanics, and this period of training is necessarily long, and therefore it has been decided that Halton shall be developed as a training establishment. Money was spent during the War for the purpose of establishing workshops, and it is most necessary to provide adequate housing accommodation in place of the dilapidated wooden huts in which the boys are now housed. These shops will, it is hoped, year by year turn out at least a thousand men, who have had the advantage of Government engineering training in the most highly technical kind, skilled and fitted for the battle of life.

Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for to-morrow (Wednesday).

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Tuesday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at One minute after Twelve o'clock.