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Commons Chamber

Volume 139: debated on Thursday 24 March 1921

House of Commons

Thursday, March 24, 1921

The House met at Twelve of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Herts and Essex Water Bill,

As amended, considered; an Amendment made; Bill to be read the Third time.

New Writ

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out a new writ for the election of a Member to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of Birmingham, West Birmingham Division, in the room of the Right Hon. Joseph Austen Chamberlain, who since his election for the said borough has accepted the office of Lord Privy Seal."—[ Lord Edmund Talbot. ]

I think I am correct in saying it must have come as a matter of very considerable surprise to all Members of the House that the Motion which is being now put from the Chair is necessary. I do not think there is any party in this House who would be other than glad if it were unnecessary to move such a writ under the circumstances, and therefore it will be quite clear that, in putting the query I wish to address to my right hon. Friend the Attorney-General, I do not raise it in any partisan spirit or with any desire to obstruct the proceedings. This House has always been very jealous of all matters in connection with the vacation of seats of Members on the occasion of their accepting office from the Crown, and as the question is one of real constitutional interest I would ask the Attorney-General if he will tell us what is the need for the Motion now before us.

I need not say I could have wished, with my right hon. Friend opposite, that this further election might have proved to be unnecessary, but I am satisfied that it is necessary for this reason. It is quite true that under the Statute of Anne, which my right hon. Friend has in mind, there is a clear distinction drawn between new offices and old offices. No one will suggest that this is a new office. If it were, of course, the appointment of a Member of this House would not only involve the necessity of a by-election, but he would be disqualified from sitting in the House unless an Act were passed to enable him. We are dealing with an old office of such a nature that a Member of this House, if he is appointed to it, after election, may hold the appointment, but he has to vacate his seat so that he may be re-elected. It is quite true, as my right hon. Friend has suggested, that there are many offices which Members of this House may pass to in lieu of and in immediate succession to another office. These offices are enumerated in Schedule H of the Representation of the People Act, 1867, and the effect of that is that while appointment to any of these offices involves reelection, yet if a Member of the House after election holds one of the offices enumerated in Schedule H he may pass to another office in Schedule H without the need for further election. A Member may, for example, be Solicitor-General and may pass to the office of Attorney-General without any need of re-election. He may pass from the office of Secretary for War to that of Chancellor of the Exchequer, and from that of Chancellor of the Exchequer to any other office in Schedule H, without re-election; that is to say, if he has retired from one office in Schedule H and is going at once to another office also in Schedule H, he has no need to seek re-election. But the office of Lord Privy Seal is not included in that Schedule, and, therefore, the present position is that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House is passing from an office in Schedule H to one which is not in it, and he has consequently to seek re-election as if he were taking office for the first time. If my right hon. Friend asks the reason why the office of Lord Privy Seal is not included among the offices that are in Schedule H, I can only make an historical conjecture, and I will offer this, that in fact, when one looks over the history of the office, and the names of the distin- guished persons who have held it, one finds that with one or two, or it may be at the outside three, exceptions the office has always been held not by a Member of this House, but by a member of another place. Therefore, it may well be that when Schedule H was drawn up it was not conceived that it was necessary to include the office of Lord Privy Seal in it.

May I put a further question to the right hon. Gentleman? Has His Majesty's Government it in their mind to remove this omission by legislation? It would seem quite easy to pass a Bill through all its stages to remedy the omission, and thus to avoid the expense and inconvenience which is now involved.

I welcome that suggestion, and it shall have immediate attention. Perhaps while my right hon. Friend is in that agreeable mood—shall I add, that characteristic mood—we may go a little further, and include some other offices, and thus get rid of what, I think, the good sense of this House regards very often as an unnecessary by-election.

Question put, and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ireland

Murders and Outrages

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been called to the charges made against the Irish Executive by Mrs. Agatha Watts, Miss Frances Melland, and Dr. E. V. Brown, of the Society of Friends, as a result of a deputation to Ireland; if these charges include burnings, lootings, beatings and murder of prisoners, and the taking of women hostages; if documentary proofs and signed statements of the above are available; whether any women have in fact been taken as hostages; and whether, as stated by above persons, dictaphones have been placed in confessionals for espionage purposes by Crown agents?

Yes, Sir. My attention has been called to these charges. No signed statements or documentary proofs have been sent to me. It is absolutely untrue that women have been carried as hostages, or that the sanctity of the confessional has ever been violated.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it desirable to invite these persons to lay evidence before him, and to clear these very grave charges which have been made?

asked the Chief Secretary the number of members of the forces of the Crown in Ireland who have been arrested for offences against the criminal law since the 1st January last; how many have been brought to trial; what the results of the trials have been; and how many remain in custody awaiting trial; the number of members of the forces of the Crown who have been killed and wounded, respectively, and the number of civilians, men, women, and children, who have been killed and wounded in Ireland since the 1st January last; and whether the Report of the military court of inquiry into the murders of Alderman Clancy and Councillor O'Callaghan, of Limerick, on the 7th March last, has yet been received, and, if so, what was the nature of the Report?

If the hon. Member will repeat this question, of which I only received notice yesterday, at a later date, I shall be glad to furnish him with the desired information.

asked the Chief Secretary whether he will state the names of the special constables concerned in looting or robbery at Clones; and whether these constables were using Government lorries and Government petrol on such expedition?

Nine members of the Special Constabulary have been arrested and are now awaiting trial by court-martial in connection with this incident. I do not think it right to make any statement bearing on the facts of the case pending the result of the trial.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that I merely asked for the names and not for a statement?

asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Miss N. Vaughan, occupying premises at 23a, Washington Street, Cork, whose premises were destroyed by the military on the 20th January; that she received no notification of any sort that her premises were to be destroyed; and whether he will have immediate inquiries made into this case?

I am informed by the Commander-in-Chief that the reason for the destruction of the premises referred to was that they were used by rebels, who fired from them upon the Crown forces on the 15th January last. All the occupants were given one hour's notice in which to remove their valuables.

How could this lady possibly have prevented armed rebels from using her house, and why should she be punished in a case of this sort? Is that supposed to be British justice?

( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been directed to a speech made by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) on Sunday last at Battersea, in the course of which he is reported to have said that the recent murder of the Mayor and ex-Mayor of Limerick was not only condoned, but was practically ordered by the Government, and whether he proposes to institute any prosecution against the hon. and gallant Member in respect of this statement?

My attention has been called to newspaper reports of the character indicated. It is a monstrous suggestion, and I can hardly believe that the hon. and gallant Member actually made the statements attributed to him. The murdered men were known to the military and police to be anxious to preserve the peace in Limerick, and the City has for a long time been tranquil. These facts were also known to and disapproved by the revolutionary forces.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the sentences quoted by the hon. and gallant Member in this question do not fairly represent my statements, and in view of the very specific charges which are made in connection with these two murders, will the right hon. Gentleman have a judicial inquiry into them?

On a point of Order. This report was issued by the Press Association, and I have taken means to ascertain that the report of the hon. and gallant Member's statements is absolutely correct.

If the hon. and gallant Member is prosecuted, will not that be a sufficient judicial inquiry?

Auxiliary Division (K Company)

asked the Chief Secretary whether K Company of the Auxiliary Division, Royal Irish Constabulary, has been broken up; whether the cadets who joined subsequent to the 15th December are being drafted into O Company; and whether the command of O Company has been given to an officer who was a section commander in K Company, and was with them when the burnings took place in Cork?

The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative; as regards the last part of the question, it is the case that the officer commanding O Company was formerly a platoon commander in K Company. He is an officer with an excellent war record against whom no allegation has, so far as I am aware, been made. The mere fact that this officer was at one time a platoon commander in K Company is no reason why he should not be given promotion for which he is in every way qualified.

Raid, Carlow

asked the Chief Secretary if he has any information regarding a man named Patrick Comer ford, of Barrin Street, Carlow, who was taken from his house by a party of masked men at two o'clock a.m. on the 27th of February and ordered to leave the town for 12 months, and that he had to go at once, which he did, leaving his wife and six children unprovided for; and will he cause an inquiry to be made into this case?

I have made inquiries into this matter, and am informed that the facts are substantially as stated in the hon. Member's question, except that the man's wife and family have not been left unprovided, but are carrying on the business of his shop in his absence. The police have been unable to ascertain his present whereabouts, or to obtain any information as to the person by whom he was kidnapped.

Shooting, Drumcondra

asked the Chief Secretary how many members of the forces of the Crown formed an escort to James Murphy and Patrick Kennedy when they were murdered, and why only three of these men have been arrested?

I am unable to add anything to my reply to a similar question by the hon. Member on the 14th instant.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reply to that part of the question which refers to men whose case is not sub judice —men who have never been arrested at all? Will he state how many men formed that escort, why only three of them were arrested, and what happened to the rest of them?

The three men who are mentioned are to be tried on the 7th April, and pending that trial I think it would be highly improper for me to discuss the matter.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question as to how many men formed this escort, and what has happened to the remainder of the escort? Has the charge of murder been condoned in their case?

May I ask whether an officer named Captain Hardy was arrested in connection with the murder of these men and has been subsequently released? I made that statement last night.

The hon. Member has asked the same question three times over, and has always had the same answer.

On a point of Order. I beg to submit that the question has never been answered at all.

It may not have been answered to the satisfaction of the hon. Member, but it was answered to the satisfaction of the Minister who gave the reply.

If the hon. and gallant Member will look at the Paper, he will see that there is a question later on, No. 19, on that subject.

Can we not have an answer now as to whether Captain Hardy was not one of the persons arrested in connection with that tragic affair and was released?

These men are about to be tried, and questions which may be asked and answers which may be given might very seriously prejudice the position of those who are on trial and those who are not yet on trial.

On that point of Order May I respectfully submit to you that I am asking no ques-about the three men who are under arrest, but only about persons who have been arrested and then released? May I put it to you that that will not in any way prejudice the three men who are under arrest, and about whom I am asking no question?

I do not agree with the hon. and gallant Member. I think that his questions are very likely to prejudice their trial.

May I draw attention to the answer of the right hon. Gentleman that he will answer my supplementary question when he replies to a question in the name of the hon. Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. Swan)? The hon. Member for Barnard Castle is not present, and therefore I would press the right hon. Gentleman to answer my question now.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend to a question put by the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. MacVeagh) on the 17th inst.

As the right hon. Gentleman refers to an answer to a question of mine, may I state that the question which I then put was not answered, and has not been answered yet? What my hon. and gallant Friend wants to know is, Was Captain Hardy arrested, and, if so, on what charge? That is a simple question. Can we have an answer to it?

Mechanics' Institute, Limerick

asked the Chief Secretary whether the Mechanics' Institute, Limerick, was raided by the military on Monday the 7th March; whether a number of billiard balls and packs of cards were stolen; whether on Wednesday the 9th February the same premises were entered and the billiard room bombed during curfew hours; whether much damage was done; and what action he has taken, or proposes to take, in the matter?

I have received a report from the Commander-in-Chief with reference to this matter, which states that the Mechanics' Institute, Limerick, was entered by military on the night of the 7th-8th instant in pursuit of civilians eluding curfew patrol. The premises were again visited on the 9th instant, but the place was not bombed by the military. At 9.30 p.m. on the same date a bomb was thrown into the billiard room by persons unknown, doing some damage. The matter was investigated immediately and, from the fragments of metal collected, the bomb was proved to be of amateur, and probably rebel manufacture. No complaint was made to the officer commanding troops of the theft of billiard balls and packs of cards, and subsequent inquiries show that there is no foundation for this charge.

Special Constabulary, Ulster

asked the Chief Secretary whether he can now state if Newry is a first-class police station and Enniscorthy a third-class station; if so, whether he can state on what grounds District Inspector Barrington was removed from Newry to Enniscorthy after he had arrested a number of special constables for looting and for murderous assaults; whether he can state why Sissons and Armstrong, the officers in charge of the special constables in Newry, were allowed to resign if they had no connection with the looting; and whether any of the loot was found in the barracks of the special constables?

District inspectors stationed in Ireland are not, during this abnormal period in Ireland, grouped permanently into first, second, and third class stations. A third-class or second-class district inspector is not necessarily removed to another station on promotion, and, conversely, it is not regarded as derogatory in any way for a first-class or second-class inspector to be transferred to a station previously filled by an inspector of lower rank. As I have already explained, Mr. Barrington's transfer from Newry to Enniscorthy was not a disciplinary measure, and involved no reflection upon his capacity or efficiency As regards the resignations of the two special constabulary officers mentioned, I can only repeat what I said last week that neither of these officers was personally involved in any act of misconduct. The last part of the hon. Member's question raises a point of evidence which, for obvious reasons, I am unable to discuss while the men who have been arrested are still awaiting trial.

Does the right hon. Gentleman say that answering a question as to whether any loot was found in the barracks of the special constables is prejudicing the trial of anyone?

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question on the Paper, namely, whether Newry is a first-class police station and Enniscorthy a third-class station?

I have already answered that during this period of trouble there is no such thing as a first-, second-or third- class station. It will be obvious at once to the hon. Member that you may have a second-or third-class station which is one of the most difficult positions in Ireland and needs a first-class inspector.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say why Sissons and Armstrong were allowed, or invited, to resign, if they had nothing to do with the looting and their character is beyond reproach? Why did you dispense with the services of such distinguished officers?

I never said that they were invited to resign. The question is, whether they were allowed to resign. I have already said that neither of them was personally involved in any kind of misconduct.

Documents Seized

asked the Chief Secretary whether he is now in a position to make a statement with regard to the action of the Crown forces in seizing and removing from the offices of Mr. Michael Noyk, solicitor, Dublin, the briefs for counsel which had been delivered in several court-martial cases; whether his attention has been called to the fact that at a general meeting of the members of the Irish Bar a resolution was unanimously passed declaring this action to be an infringement of the privileges of the Bar; whether the briefs contained the instructions for the defence of the prisoners and counsel's notes thereon; and what action the Government has taken?

The offices of Mr. Noyk were searched by the forces of the Crown with the object of finding any papers which might lead to the apprehension of a number of persons who are wanted for various offences. Among the papers taken were some documents relating to recent murder trials, but no improper use was made of these documents, which were returned unread to Mr. Noyk in a sealed envelope. The resolution to which the hon. Member refers would appear to have been based on a misunderstanding of the facts of this incident.

Is it not a fact that at this time a movement was on foot to obtain the reprieve of the sentences passed in these two cases, and that during the period when the reprieve was being agitated for, Crown forces raided this office and took away the briefs, including the instructions to counsel. Is there any precedent, especially in a Government in which the Prime Minister is a solicitor and the Chief Secretary is also a lawyer, for raiding the office of a solicitor and taking away the briefs, as was done in this case?

I have already stated that the conviction had taken place a considerable time before the raid on the office took place. I can assure my hon. Friend that no persons connected with the reprieve or connected in any way with the extending of the prerogative of mercy to these men ever had access to, or ever looked at, any document of the kind.

Is it a fact that briefs were taken away. I ask the Attorney-General, as leader of the Irish Bar, does he attempt to justify it.

No, they were taken away, and when it was discovered what they were, they were immediately returned under seal.

Auxiliary Police Force

asked the Chief Secretary whether in view of the increasingly grave situation in Ireland and of his declared willingness to explore any avenue that might lead to peace, he will consider the advisability of temporarily withdrawing the force commonly known as the "Black and Tans," and substituting for them an equal number of regular troops, for the purpose of testing the validity of the allegations made in many responsible quarters that the present disorders are due to the conduct of that force; whether, if such withdrawal is followed by a substantial diminution in crime, the chances of peace will be greatly improved; and, if no such diminution takes place, the allegations against the force will be shown to have no basis in fact?

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister dealt with this matter very fully yesterday afternoon. I have nothing to add to that statement.

Peat Commission

asked the Chief Secretary whether he can state the reason of the delay in publishing the Report of the Peat Commission and when it will be issued; and whether he is aware that resolutions were passed last May and at the recent meetings of the Council of Agriculture asking for its publication?

I am informed that the Report referred to is now in the Press, and it is expected that copies will be available in about a fortnight.

Local Authorities (Pensions)

asked the Chief Secretary the cause of the delay on the part of the Local Government Board for Ireland in putting into operation the provisions of The Pensions (Increase) Act, 1920; whether he is aware that increases of pre-War pensions have been granted by the Board of Governors of Kilkenny district lunatic asylum for the past two months; and if he will consult with the Treasury to have the necessary regulations issued and published under Section 3 and Section 4 of the Act as soon as possible on behalf of these poor pensioners?

The Treasury have made an Order and Regulations under the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1920, dated 2nd March, 1921, applying the provisions of the Act to the pensioners of local authorities in Ireland. The Order and Regulations have already been published in the "Dublin Gazette," and copies are about to be issued by the Local Government Board to the various local authorities throughout Ireland.

Barracks and Courthouses (Destruction)

asked the Chief Secretary the number of barracks and courthouses which have been destroyed in Ireland during the years 1919 and 1920?

No barracks or courthouses were destroyed during the year 1919. The number of barracks destroyed during the year 1920 was 533, of which 510 were unoccupied, and the number of courthouses destroyed was 69.

Burnings, Cork

asked the Chief Secretary whether he will reconsider the decision not to make public the Report of the inquiry into the burning of the city of Cork; and whether he can state in how many cases inquiries of a similar character have been held and concerning which the finding has not been published?

I have nothing to add to the statements I have already made with regard to this matter.

Court-Martial, Cork

( by Private Notice ) asked the Chief Secretary whether sentence of death has been passed on Patrick O'Sullivan, Maurice Moore, and Jeremiah O'Leary, by court-martial in Cork; what are these men charged with, and what are the circumstances?

I have been informed by the Commander-in-chief that the sentences in these cases have not been confirmed or promulgated, and in addition, an application was granted by the King's Bench Division in Dublin yesterday for a conditional Order for Habeas Corpus, and the case will be argued in a few days.

Questions

Trade, United Kingdom

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any figures are available showing the trade of the United Kingdom with Ireland during the past six months?

I am not in possession of any figures showing the trade between Great Britain and Ireland during the past six months. I am, however, making inquiry, and should I receive any particulars I will communicate them to the hon. and gallant Member.

Passports

asked the Prime Minister whether, with a view to securing uniformity in passport regulation, His Majesty's Government could see its way to suggest to the European countries which have not yet fallen into line an extension of visas hording good for 12 months?

When the various countries who sent representatives to the recent Conference in Paris adopt the resolutions which were passed, all visas granted by such countries will automatically be good for a year, unless specially limited to a shorter period.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will consider the possibility of the Passport Control Department of the Foreign Office making the normal British visa an annual one the fee the equivalent of 10 gold francs, in view of the fact that the French are now charging 10 gold francs and threaten to raise this to 25 gold francs if the present British rate is maintained, and that the Belgians are, in fact, charging 25 gold francs because the British rate is so high, whereas they are prepared to reduce the rate to 10 gold francs as soon as the British adopt the recommendations of the Committee of the League of Nations?

Steps are being taken to ascertain whether the Dominion, Indian and Colonial Governments are prepared to co-operate with His Majesty's Government by adopting the Resolutions passed at the Conference regarding passports and visas. The Treasury have been communicated with as to the question of the suggested reduction of the amount of the visa fee.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the French are going to raise the charge for visas on 1st April to £1 against British travellers, whereas they only charge 8s. to the travellers of other nations, and that the Swiss charge for visas has been reduced to 5s., and is he aware—

With the co-operation of our Dominions, is it not possible to reduce the cost of our visas?

Is it possible to have arrangements made with other Governments to stop the infernal searching that goes on at the frontiers and the inconvenience caused thereby?

I have done everything I could in my subordinate position to do away with these inconveniences.

Murmansk (German Expedition)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Parliament of Finland voted on the 10th March last a payment of 30,000,000 Finnish marks to the German Government for the German expedition under General Von der Gotz in the spring of 1918; whether the threat of this German army to Murmansk and Pet-chenga necessitated the despatch of a British naval and military expedition at great expense when every ship and soldier was required in the main theatres of war; and whether this money should be paid to the British Exchequer rather than to the Germans, particularly in view of the fact that General Ludendorf states in his Memoirs that the expedition was not sent from any sentimental point of view, but simply to serve the military interests of Germany?

Will the right hon. Gentleman have immediate inquiries made into this case. I have brought evidence before the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs?

The letter asking the hon. and gallant Gentleman to postpone the question states that inquiries are being made.

Will the right hon. Gentleman go personally into this? I want to draw his attention to this state of affairs.

Civil Service, Bonus

asked the Prime Minister whether he has received a com- munication from the council of the Royal Borough of Kensington strongly urging that, in view of the fall in the cost of living and the urgent need of cutting down national and municipal expenditure, the existing bonus system of remuneration for persons in the Government service should be reviewed, especially having regard to the fact that the Civil Service bonus scheme has been applied, at the suggestion of the Ministry of Health, to the remuneration of the employés of the great majority of local authorities throughout the country, and that it is difficult for such authorities to modify their own particular bonus schemes while the Government scheme remains in operation; and if he will state what action he proposes to take in the matter?

A communication has been received from the Royal Borough of Kensington urging that the Civil Service bonus scheme should be reconsidered with a view to its abolition or to a material reduction of the benefits conferred by it. I am unable to accede to this suggestion. A fall in the cost of living, as I have repeatedly stated, entails a corresponding reduction on the recent revision in the bonus payable under the scheme.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that, having regard to the fact that this bonus scheme was originally constituted departmentally, and without the House of Commons having an opportunity to express an opinion upon it, and having regard to the fall in the cost of living, it would be desirable to have a full inquiry at present?

The House expressed an opinion upon it in the recent Division, when 39 Members voted against it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this bonus is causing discontent in the Army and Navy because Army and Navy officers do not get the bonus and the civil people do? Could that not be rectified by withdrawing the bonus?

Army and Navy salaries have been very considerably augmented, while Civil Service salaries have not.

Penal Servitude

asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to abolish penal servitude; if so, what fault is found with that form of punishment, and what is to take its place?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and the second part does not arise.

Is it not a fact that two days ago the right hon. Gentleman publicly declared that he wished to abolish penal servitude before he left the Home Office?

No; what I said was that I objected very strongly to the term "servitude" as applied to any of my fellow countrymen, and I adhere to that objection.

Peace Treaties

Submarined Seamen (Compensation)

asked the Prime Minister whether he will secure that the claims for compensation of British submarined British fishermen and seamen and of seamen seized at German ports immediately before the declaration of war, who were imprisoned in German prisons in defiance of the provisions of the Hague Convention, will be made a primary charge on any sums received by way of indemnity from Germany in respect that these men have suffered severely in person and pecuniary loss, and were overlooked in the Peace Treaty, although they were told to lodge claims as being provided for thereunder?

I have been asked to reply to this question. Claims arising from German action during the War, so far as they fall within the categories laid down in the reparation Clauses of the Peace Treaty, will be considered for the grant of compensation under the conditions laid down in the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 4th May, 1920, of which I am sending my hon. Friend a copy. Claims arising from acts committed by the German Government or authorities during the period between the 31st July and the 4th August, 1914, do not fall within the reparations Clauses but will be submitted to an arbitrator, as provided by paragraph 4 of the Annex to Article 297 of the Treaty, and any compensation awarded may be charged against German property in this country. Seamen injured or otherwise incapacitated by submarine action or as a result of internment are entitled to apply for consideration under the War Risks Compensation Scheme.

Is it not the case that the compensation the seamen are getting who were interned immediately prior to the War is the same compensation as is given to the ordinary civilian, whereas he is entitled to a better scale on the ground that he was protected under the Hague Treaty which has been disregarded?

I think if the hon. Member will read the answer he will see that the claim for a seaman who has been interned can be made under two heads, not merely for compensation under the Reparations, but also under the special claims which are provided for in paragraph 4 of the annex.

May I ask the Prime Minister, in view of the long delay in getting further sums out of Germany, could not these seamen get something on account out of the proceeds of the sale of German ships as promised by him some two years ago?

I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman is rather mistaken. Of the claims against German property a large amount has already been collected from Germany through the clearing house and the regular monthly instalments have been regularly paid up to date.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that claims were sent as far back as 13th November, 1919, to the Reparation Claims Department on behalf of widows and dependants of those who lost their lives by enemy action in sinking the s. s. "Abosso," and that no information regarding the settlement of the claims has been sent to those concerned; and whether he can say when the claims will be recognised and met by compensatory payments?

I am unable to add anything to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member on the 17th of March.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he has not given an answer in relation to the widows and children who have never received a penny?

The hon. Gentleman put a question about compensation under reparation claims. That cannot be paid until the £5,000,000 is available, but that does not conclude the matter. There are the pensions under the War Risks Compensation Scheme, and those, I am informed, are actually being paid to the dependants of seamen who lost their lives.

German Reparation. (Dominions and India)

asked the Prime Minister whether he has seen the declaration of the Canadian Prime Minister that the Canadian Government had received no specific proposal from London about co-operation in exacting reparation from Germany; and whether such a proposal will now be made to the Dominions and to India?

I have not seen the declaration referred to, but there must, I think, be some misunderstanding. The intentions of His Majesty's Government are in accordance with the suggestions contained in the last part of the question.

Questions

Party Funds

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a recent case in which it transpired that a sum of £10,000 was, in 1909, granted by a party whip to a gentleman at that time a Member of the House of Commons; whether it is the custom to assist Members of Parliament in this manner to avoid bankruptcy and consequent resignations of seats; and whether he proposes to introduce legislation with a view to preventing such an abuse of the system of party funds.

I have no knowledge of the matter referred to, and have no means of ascertaining the accuracy of the facts stated by my hon. and gallant Friend.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire into the case, since the Gentleman referred to is presumed to have joined the Labour party. It is only fair, if that is so, that the money should be divided equally amongst Coalition Liberals and the Wee Free Liberals who are supposed to be approaching bankruptcy themselves.

Is not an hon. Member understood to hold himself responsible for the statements he makes in a question, and are we to understand that the hon. and gallant Gentleman has himself inquired into this and found it is correct because it has been denied in the public Press?

I understand this question is founded upon evidence given in the Law Courts on oath.

Are you aware, Sir, that it has been authoritatively denied in the public Press?

I was not aware. A great many things have been denied in the Press which eventually turn out correct.

Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)

asked the Prime Minister when he will give a day to discuss the Motion for the abolition of the Liquor Control Board which is upon the Paper, and for which so large a number of Members have expressed a wish to have moved and debated?

I am afraid that it will not be possible to give time to discuss this Motion before the Bill dealing with the matter is introduced.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there is the greatest dissatisfaction with the present state of affairs, that the country wishes to start on this discussion with a clean sheet and not with War-time measures imposed upon them, and that it is very little use addressing people against the forces of revolution—

Bolshevism (M. Lenin's Statement)

asked the Prime Minister whether he has any official information of a recently reported statement by M. Lenin upon the subject of Bolshevism; and whether he is able to give the House the conclusions arrived at by M. Lenin as to the merits or demerits of this form of government?

Such information as is available is to be found in the wireless reports from Moscow.

League of Nations

Secretariat

asked the Prime Minister whether the official of the Treasury appointed to serve on the League of Nation's Committee to consider the organisations, numbers, salaries, and allowances of the permanent staff of the Secretariat of the League of Nations, is to receive a special salary and allowances for that work; and, if so, at what rate and by whom are they to be paid?

An inquiry has been addressed to the Secretariat of the League as to what allowance it is proposed to grant to the representative of the British Treasury. Perhaps the hon. and gallant Member will repeat his question after Easter, when I hope the desired information will be available.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether Russia is likely to be allowed to enter the League of Nations?

Mandates

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the League of Nations may if it chooses revise the mandates for Mesopotamia and Palestine while the House of Commons may only accept or decline them unconditionally, that these mandates impose an expenditure of approximately £28,000,000 in the coming financial year, that although no financial responsibility is borne by the League, Great Britain is required under the mandates to present to the League an annual report upon the expenditure connected therewith, and in view of the apprehension widely felt that burdens may be cast upon the taxpayer without parliamentary sanction having been previously obtained, he will give at an early opportunity time for a discussion in the House of the grave issues involved?

asked the Prime Minister what steps the Government intend to take to ensure that the taxpayer will not be called upon to assume any financial liability in respect of the mandates for Mesopotamia, Palestine, and Nauru until he has had an opportunity to express his wishes in the matter?

My right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary proposes on his return to make a full statement to the House as to the position in Palestine and Mesopotamia, and the House will have a further opportunity then to discuss the question of the mandates.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Colonial Secretary will be back?

Can the Prime Minister tell us whether it will be within the power of the House of Commons to repudiate liability respecting the mandates?

Certainly, the House of Commons will have complete power either to accept or repudiate.

Will the Prime Minister answer my question? In view of the absence of the Colonial Secretary, can he say when he expects the right hon. Gentleman back?

Will Great Britain have the first charge upon the Revenues of these countries to repay her for expenditure in respect of the administration of those countries?

Has the right hon. Gentleman any indication that the Jews themselves are now finding the money for policing Palestine?

I am very hopeful that the Government there will be self-supporting, and that it will provide for its own defence. That is one of the questions which is being considered by the Government.

The Prime Minister says that the matter is being considered. Surely Great Britain is entitled to the first charge on the revenues of those countries in respect of the actual expenditure on those countries.

Certainly, but at the present time, as the hon. Member knows perfectly well, there is no Government in Mesopotamia with whom we can deal. We are endeavouring to set up a Government, but we cannot impose a charge until the Government has been set up. That will be one of the first questions to be considered with the new Government.

asked the Prime Minister whether any suggested Amendments to the draft mandate for Tanganyika Territory should be submitted direct to the Secretary-General of the League of Nations, or to the Lord President of the Council, or to himself; and whether instructions will be given that Amendments dealing with the draft proposals regarding the continuance of the status of slavery, sale of alcohol to natives, and the proposal permitting the territory to be combined in an administrative union with Kenya Colony shall receive reconsideration by the British Government's representative on the Council of the League?

The draft mandate in question has already been submitted to the Council of the League of Nations. If my hon. Friend has any suggestions to make, they can be submitted either to the Lord President of the Council or to myself.

Can the Prime Minister say when the Lord President of the Council will be present again in his place in Parliament?

Questions

Naval Armaments

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the desirability of inviting the Governments of the United States and Japan to send special representatives to London in June so that the problem of naval armaments may be considered in friendly conference on the lines of Mr. Harding's inaugural speech to Congress and the recent declaration of the First Lord of the Admiralty, and with the advantage of the presence in London of the Ministers of the Dominion's and India?

asked the Prime Minister what steps have been taken to arrange for the discussion by representatives of this country and of the United States of America of the naval programmes of the two countries?

It is premature to make any statement on this important question.

Munition Factories, Austria

asked the Prime Minister if he has any official information as to what proportion of the shares in the Skoda munition factory and in Krupps, of Austria, are now owned by French capitalists; and what proportion are in the hands of Schneider, of Creusot, in particular?

Cigars, Import Duty

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the 50 per cent. ad valorem duty on imported cigars imposed in the last Budget is estimated to produce a deficit of £500,000 instead of an increase of £500,000 which was budgeted for; and if he will consider the removal of this duty in view of the injury to the retail tobacconist trade caused by this tax?

I have nothing to add to the reply which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave on the 8th instant on this subject.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a crisis in the retail tobacconist trade?

Has the right hon. Gentleman not received correspondence from a large number of retail tobacconists saying that if this tax is continued they will be ruined, and that they will have to raise the price of ordinary tobacco to their customers?

University of London (Site)

asked the President of the Board of Education whether the agreement between the Government and the Duke of Bedford for the purchase of some 11 acres at the rear of the British Museum was conditional on the land being used for the erection of new buildings for the University of London; whether it contained a clause that in the event of such university buildings not being erected before April, 1926, the Duke of Bedford should have an option of repurchasing the property at the price which had been paid for it by the Government; whether the Government are consequently precluded under the terms of such agreement from using the site for any other purpose other than for the erection of university buildings; whether this site has now been definitely purchased by the Government subject to the above-mentioned restrictive covenant; and whether he will lay a copy of the agreement upon the Table of the House for the information of Members of Parliament?

As stated in the reply which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave to the hon. Member for Nottingham on the 16th instant, the agreement with the vendor contains a clause under which, if before 1st April, 1926, the Government give notice that they find it impossible to use the property for the purposes of the university the vendor has an option to repurchase it for the price given, and if he does not exercise the option the restriction of the use of the site for purposes of the university is removed. It is, therefore, not the fact that the Government are precluded from using the site for any purpose other than that of the erection of university buildings. I will inquire whether the Duke of Bedford's trustees have any objection to the presentation of the agreement.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain how he can say that it is not a fact that the Government are precluded from using the site for other than university purposes, when the Duke of Bedford has an option to repurchase if it is used for other than university purposes, and will he answer the last part of the question as to whether the site has been actually purchased?

The right hon. Gentleman says that it is not a fact that the Government are precluded from using the site for other than university purposes. How can that be so when the Duke of Bedford has the option to repurchase if the site is used for other than university purposes?

If the Duke repurchases, the question does not arise; if he does not, then we are not precluded.

asked the President of the Board of Education if he will inform the House what were the other purposes for which the Government proposed to use the site which they have acquired from the Duke of Bedford at the rear of the British Museum, in the event of the same not being made use of for the purposes of the University of London, as stated in his letter to Lord Rosebery of the 7th April, 1920; and whether the Government propose to acquire another site of equal area for such purposes, in the event of the Bloomsbury site being made use of by the university?

As stated in the reply which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave to the hon. Member for Nottingham on the 16th instant, in the improbable event of the abandonment of the scheme, it will be for the Government of the day to determine whether to dispose of the site or devote it to other purposes.

Is the right ion. Gentleman aware that in the letter it was definitely stated by the Minister of Education, in urging the University of London to give an early reply, that in the event of their not requiring the site, the site was required by the Government for other purposes? Will the right hon. Gentleman say what are the other purposes for which the Government require a site of 11 acres?

Posters, Cardiff

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the chief of police at Cardiff has forbidden the exhibition of certain posters advertising a meeting, on the ground that they contained the words Lenin, comrade, and Communist party; and whether other printed matter containing any of these words is also liable to suppression?

The answer to both questions is in the negative. What happened was that the chief constable, on being consulted by an advertising company, advised them not to publish a poster without the name and address of the printer. The police took no objection to the words "Comrade" and "Communist," nor to the word "Lenin," except in so far as its use was likely to be misleading.

Is it not a fact that Lenin has announced himself a supporter of the Middle Classes Union?

Profiteering Acts

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state how many prosecutions have been instituted under the Profiteering Acts during the last six months; and what has been the cost of working the Acts in that period, including the expenses of administration, both centrally and locally?

According to returns which have been received, 31 prosecutions have been initiated between 1st September, 1920, and 28th February, 1921. The expenditure of the Board of Trade (excluding office rent, lighting and stationery) in administering the Acts during this period was £23,165. This includes the expenses of the Central Committee and of Appeal Tribunals, but not that of Local Committees, which I am not able to give as they are defrayed out of the local rates.

How many convictions have been secured as a result of the 31 prosecutions?

Would it be correct to say that it has been costing £1,000 to bring a single prosecution?

That would be a completely inaccurate statement. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is ignoring entirely all the work done by the Central Committee in the investigation of prices.

Housing

Houses Completed (Subsidy)

asked the Minister of Health whether certificates for the housing subsidy of £260 granted in 1920, but not yet used, can be used in building houses in 1921, provided that those houses are finished by the end of the year?

Under the Bill which I introduced yesterday, it is proposed that the grant will be payable on houses completed by the end of June, 1922.

When will this Bill be printed, seeing that it is down for Second Reading to-day, and is not available in the Vote Office?

Are houses finished in January of this year now available for grants, or will the grants not be paid until the Bill is passed?

In the case of houses built in January of this year under the existing Act, it is necessary to deduct one-twelfth of the amount that otherwise would be payable. Under the Bill as printed it is proposed that we should be able to repay that one-twelfth.

Will the right hon. Gentleman insert in the new Bill a Clause to prevent a subsidy being paid to builders who build houses for sale and not to be let?

Scotland

asked the Secretary for Scotland how many houses have been completed under the Housing Act in Scotland; how many are in course of construction; and what proportion does this figure represent of the total number of houses that were included in the schemes of local authorities that were submitted and approved?

Under the Housing Acts, 1,500 houses had been completed, and 9,590 were in course of construction in Scotland at the 28th February. Seven hundred and ninety-seven of the completed houses and 7,773 of the houses in course of construction are being provided by local authorities, and the sum of these two figures represents 7·5 per cent of the 114,119 houses included in approved schemes by local authorities.

What prospect is there of the remaining percentage being constructed if only 7½ per cent. have been built?

We hope that during the coming better weather and with the increased labour available for building schemes there will be considerable progress.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the last few months have been the driest for sixty-four years?

asked the Secretary for Scotland how many men of all branches of the building trade are now engaged upon house construction in schemes under the Housing Act in Scotland; how many men is it estimated will be required to carry out the work during the summer months; and whether, if the type of construction of the houses be altered, there is any prospect of absorbing considerable labour now unemployed?

According to returns for the fortnight ending the 15th March, 8,676 men were employed on house construction in schemes promoted by local authorities under the Housing, Town Planning, etc. (Scotland) Act, 1919. On the basis that two men are required to complete one house per annum, 6,870 additional men would be necessary to complete the 7,773 houses now under construction by local authorities. A wide variety of forms of construction is at present in operation, and I do not think that a further absorption of unemployed labour could be attained by the method suggested in the last part of the question.

asked the Secretary for Scotland how much money from all sources has been raised by local authorities for housing schemes; what was the estimated sum required for building the houses that were considered necessary; how much of this money raised has been spent upon house construction; and what has been the total contribution made to local authorities by the Treasury?

According to returns up to the 15th March, the total amount raised by local authorities for housing schemes is £4,648,868. No detailed estimate has been framed of the cost of the total number of houses considered necessary, but the 19,315 houses for which tenders have been approved are estimated to cost £18,900,000, inclusive of the cost of street works. The total contribution made to local authorities by the Treasury to date is £28,178.

Government Staffs and Offices

Ministry of Health (Women Clerks)

asked the Minister of Health whether in the Navy and Army Fund branch of the Ministry of Health there are two first class women clerks who have been assimilated to the lower clerical grade, although they are doing exactly similar work to two men assimilated to the higher clerical grade, and two first class women clerks who have been assimilated to the lower clerical grade, although they are doing exactly similar work to two men assimilated to the lower executive grade; and whether he can state what is the reason for the degrading of the women?

I am not aware of the facts mentioned by my Noble Friend, but I am inquiring into them, and will report the result to her.

District Food Officers

asked the Minister of Food whether his attention has been drawn to the position of the late district food officers in the North-West division; whether he is aware that the letters of the divisional commissioner of May last, when provisionally offering these appointments, stated that the Ministry would be continued for at least one year from the 1st July until the end of the Ministry of Food, which will be in August, 1920, unless. Parliament passes the necessary Act continuing the Ministry of Food beyond that date; whether any of these displaced officers have been found other employment; and whether, in view of the straitened circumstances many of these officers have been placed in through the sudden decision to close down the Ministry, and the fact that representatives of the Ministry as one of the inducements made to such officers to continue the sequence of office held out to the officers an anticipated period of service, he can state what action he proposes to take in the matter?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part the letters referred to made it clear that one month's notice on either side at any time would terminate the arrangement. The Food Controller has fully appreciated the difficulties of these officers who were displaced through the abolition in the interest of economy of all District Food Offices and, as the hon. Member was informed on 21st February last, we have made every effort to secure other employment for them. These efforts have, I am glad to say, been successful in many cases.

Transport

Commercial Travellers

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the inability of many commercial travellers to proceed to their homes at the weekend, owing to the expense involved in long railway journeys, he can undertake to approach the railway companies on the subject of the reissue of special weekend ticket facilities?

I would refer my Noble Friend to the answer on this subject which I gave on the 15th instant to the hon. Member for Keighley, of which I am sending her a copy. The railway companies have not yet seen their way to renew the concession asked for. The question is still under consideration.

Post Office

House of Commons (Letters)

asked the Postmaster General if he will consider the advisability of reinstating the time table of letter areas in the House of Commons post office in order that Members may be saved the cost of telegrams as at present?

I understand that the hon. Member wishes to know why a table no longer appears in the Post Office Guide showing the times at which letters should be posted in London, in order to fall into the various deliveries at towns throughout the country. This table was discontinued during the War, and I do not think its value to the public would justify the expense of preparation and printing. I shall be happy to supply the hon. Member with any information which he requires on the subject if he will communicate with me.

Telephone Service

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a peremptory notice has been sent to telephone users that unless the new agreement is signed before the 31st instant their existing service will be withdrawn without further notice; and has this been done with his sanction?

Existing telephone subscribers whose agreements were terminated by three months' notice expiring on the 31st instant have been advised that their existing service will be withdrawn after that date if in the meantime agreements are not signed at the new tariff rates. It is assumed that if the new agreement is not signed, the subscriber does not desire to continue the service.

Questions

Unemployment (Ireland)

asked the Minister of Labour if he is in a position to estimate the amount of unemployment due to the growing disorder in Ireland; and whether the Cabinet have been informed of any such dislocation of employment?

On the 11th March there were 63,241 men and 27,040 women registered at the Employment Exchanges in Ireland as wholly unemployed. Of these numbers, 51,344 men and 22,687 women were in receipt of unemployment benefit or out-of-work donation. In addition, there were 8,201 men and 30,901 women drawing unemployment benefit or out-of-work donation during short-time working. There are, of course, other short-time workers not receiving benefit or donation. It is not possible to estimate the extent to which these numbers are due to political disorders, though there is little doubt that the Irish disturbances form one of the causes contributing to the existing unemployment. I may mention that, in view of the conditions prevailing in Ireland, special grants for works there have been made from time to time, primarily for the purpose of providing employment for ex-service men. These grants, which total £515,000, have been administered by the Chief Secretary for Ireland. In addition, local authorities in Ireland may make application to the Unemployment Grants Committee for contributions to approved works.

Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to state whether representations have been made from industrial towns in Great Britain, for example, Bristol, which trade with Ireland, in reference to the unemployment arising out of disorder in Ireland?

Trade Boards Acts

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in December, 1920, he addressed a letter to the rope, twine, and net trade board, in which he stated that difficulties in the administration of the Trade Boards Acts had arisen owing to the difficulties of demarcation between certain branches of the rope, twine, net, and kindred trades; whether the trade board has also drawn attention to such difficulties, particularly with regard to the position of beasters; whether investigations into this trade are now proceeding; and whether it will be possible to conclude such investigations in view of the notice of discharge given to the investigating staff.

The facts are as stated by my hon. Friend. The investigations into the position of beasters are practically complete, and I have been in negotiation with their employers on the question of the inclusion of this work within the scope of the Rope, Twine, and Net Trade Board. The facts within my possession are sufficient to enable me to arrive at a decision in the matter.

Scotland

Rating

asked the Secretary for Scotland the terms of reference for the Committee which has been set up to consider the subject of Scottish rating?

The terms of reference are as follow:

"To inquire into the present system under which taxation is raised by local authorities for local purposes in Scotland; to report whether the system is equitable and economical, and, if not, to suggest what alterations in the system are desirable."

Will it be open to the Committee under those terms of reference to inquire whether it is desirable to alter the present system of rating so as to provide for fresh sources of income?

I have already stated that the Committee are asked to make suggestions as to what alterations in the system are desirable.

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in view of the proposed inquiry into Scottish rating by the Committee which has been set up for the purpose, he will cause a statement to be published with reference to the in- crease of local rates in Scotland similar to Command Paper 1155 relating to England and Wales, which has recently been presented to Parliament by the Minister of Health?

A Memorandum, on recent increases in the amount of local rates levied in Scotland, similar to Command Paper 1016, relating to England and Wales, which was presented to Parliament in November last, has been prepared by the Scottish Board of Health, and will, I hope, be issued at an early date. The staff available for the preparation of statistical returns of this nature was seriously weakened during the War, and has not yet been restored to its pre-War strength. I trust, therefore, that the Memorandum to which I have referred will be found to be sufficient, as a return for Scotland, similar to Command Paper 1155, would take much time and labour to prepare.

Board of Agriculture

asked the Secretary for Scotland what explanation can be given for the fact that the whole salaries of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland in 1913 were about £15,000, and have now swollen to £147,000, exclusive of rent, taxes, rates, and travelling expenses; who is the head of this Department; what is his salary; how many officials are there; and, in view of the fact that Scotland was celebrated for agriculture prior to the establishment of the Board in 1912, and in the present financial stress, can the staff be employed more usefully in cultivating the land instead of their present unproductive duties?

The growth of expenditure on the salaries and expenses of the staff of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland is due to increased statutory duties laid upon the Board by Parliament, chiefly in respect of land settlement in Scotland. The head of the Department is Sir Robert Wright, whose salary is £1,500 a year, with a War bonus of £750 in addition. The number of persons employed by the Board is 476, of whom 297 are permanently and 179 are temporarily employed. I regret that my hon. and learned Friend should have permitted himself to make the suggestion contained in the last part of the question. It is entirely without warrant.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that it is the general belief of eminent agriculturists in Scotland that the Highland Agricultural Society, with a staff of seven and a salary list of £2,000 a year, has done more for agriculture in Scotland than the Board of Agriculture?

Questions

National Light Castings Association

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the report on light castings prepared by a sectional committee of the sub-committee on building materials appointed by the standing committees on the investigation of Prices and Trusts, in which it is stated that by a pooling arrangement the National Light Castings Association penalises any member who increases his output and rewards any member who reduces his output relative to the rest; whether he is aware of the effect of this policy on house construction; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?

I have been asked to reply to this question. My attention has been drawn to the statement referred to in the sub-committee's report. There is undoubtedly at present a shortage of certain classes of light castings, particularly rain water goods which have operated to retard the completion of houses. I have taken action with a view to the use of substitutes to avoid delay and deterioration of houses as far as possible.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the monopoly created by this combine was very strongly condemned in the columns of the "Daily Chronicle" as far back as 1916, and is he also aware that there are hundreds of moulders walking the streets to-day who are drawing unemployment benefit from the State, but could be employed by this Association if it would dispense with its ca'canny policy?

Has the right hon. Gentleman consulted other trade organisations so that they may put pressure on these rings, especially in regard to the Light Casting Associations, whose action is detrimental to the supply of castings?

In reply to the last question the answer is Yes, certainly; I have done so repeatedly. With regard to the first question, I do not recollect what the "Daily Chronicle" said, but I have read the Report of the Committee on the question, and there is no doubt that this Association has acted in a way which has been most detrimental to an adequate supply of castings at a proper price.

We shall take such action as is within our Statutory powers. I am discussing the matter with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.

Greece (Loan)

asked the Prime Minister whether a Greek Loan is being financied in England with the benevolent connivance of the British Government; and whether Greece is paying no interest on the moneys already borrowed?

There is, of course, no control by Government of new issues in the market, and I have no knowledge of any intended loan by the Greek Government on the British market. As regards advances by His Majesty's Government, except in respect of one comparatively small special transaction, interest on the British Government's advances to Greece, as in the case of other Allies is not being paid in cash.

Was not an embargo put on the money already standing to the credit of the Greek Government on the change of Government in Greece, and has that embargo been removed?

Maternity (Washington Convention)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the great importance of the Washington Convention on maternity and also of the widespread opinion that the draft Conventions of the Washington Conference must be submitted to Parliament, an opportunity will be given after Easter to discuss the Government's policy on the maternity Convention, and also the ministerial declaration that it is for the Government to decide whether any particular Contention shall be submitted to Parliament?

I would refer my right hon. Friend to a reply given on the 22nd February, in which a promise was given by my right hon. Friend the Member for the Central Division of Glasgow, to the effect that consideration would be given to this subject in the event of a question being put after Easter.

Industrial Welfare Expenditure (Taxation)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the urgent need of improving rest and meal accommodation in factories in connection with welfare work, and considering the voluntary nature of such improvements, and their non-remunerative character, he will now consider receiving a deputation from the national council of the pottery industry and allied councils with a view to discussing the possibility of relieving some expenditure of this nature from liability to taxation as profits of industry?

Representations on this subject were made to my Right hon. Friend early this year by the National Council of the Pottery Industry, and after careful consideration he came to the conclusion that his reception of a deputation could serve no useful purpose.

War Office Questions

I have a question (No. 110), on the Order Paper, addressed to the Secretary of State for War. Is there nobody here to answer it?

May I apologise on behalf of my right hon. Friend (Sir Laming Worthington-Evans). There is a Cabinet meeting, and it is very difficult for all of us to be here. If my hon. Friend would not mind taking the answer in writing, I should be very much obliged.

Key Industries Bill

( by Private Notice ) asked the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury whether he will circulate the terms of the Money Resolution which will be discussed on Tuesday week and which is the basis of the Anti-Dumping Bill?

I think it will be possible to get out the form of the Resolution in the course of next week, and I propose to issue it as a Command Paper. I hope it will be in the hands of hon. Members before the House meets again.

May I ask how hon. Members will be able to get this Command Paper? Will it be by application to the Vote Office, or will it be circulated in good time, that is, before Monday, 4th April? It ought to be in the hands of Members certainly on the Thursday or Friday before we resume.

It will certainly be available in the Vote Office, and I will consult the authorities to see whether it is possible to circulate it to hon. Members by post.

If this Resolution is in draft, would it not be possible to let us have it by Tuesday next in order that it might be fully considered before the Debate?

I do not think that is possible. The right hon. Member for Peebles suggested that it should be available by Friday, and I think it will be possible to have it out by then.

Yes; it will be published as a Command Paper, and no doubt the Press will copy it.

One appreciates the difficulties of the Easter holiday intervening, but is it not possible to have this Resolution printed and available for Members at the very latest by Thursday morning next?

The President of the Board of Trade is not back in this House, but I hope he will be back on Tuesday, and as soon as possible after that it will be circulated.

Message from the Lords

Gas and Water Bills,—That they communicate that they have come to the following Resolution, namely: "That it is desirable that the Taf Fechan Valley Water Board Bill [ Lords ], the Taf Fechan Water Supply Bill [ Lords ], the Rhymney Valley Water Board Bill [ Lords ], and the Rhymney and Aber Valleys Gas and Water Bill [ Lords ], be referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament."

Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Bill,— That they do not insist on their Amendment to the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Bill to which this House has disagreed.

That they have agreed to,—

Amendments to—

Ministries of Munitions and Shipping (Cessation) Bill [ Lords ], without Amendment.

Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill, without Amendment.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers on the Ionian Bank, Limited; and for other purposes." [Ionian Bank Bill [ Lords ].

IONIAN BANK BILL [Lords]

Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Orders of the Day

Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Bill

Order for consideration of Lords Amendments read.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered" put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendments considered accordingly.

CLAUSE 1.—(Powers with respect to the taking of evidence, etc., before certain tribunals of inquiry.)

(1) Where, in pursuance of a Resolution passed by either House of Parliament, a tribunal (other than a Committee of either House) is established for inquiring into a definite matter of urgent public importance, and it appears expedient that the tribunal should be empowered to take evidence on oath, to enforce the attendance of witnesses, and compel the production of documents, the instrument by which the tribunal is appointed or any instrument supplemental thereto may provide that this Act shall apply, and in such case the tribunal shall have all such powers, rights, and privileges as are vested in the High Court (or in Scotland the Court of Session or a judge thereof on the occasion of an action in respect of the following matters: —

( a ) the enforcing the attendance of witnesses and examining them on oath, affirmation, or otherwise, and the issuing of a commission or request to examine witnesses abroad;

( b ) the compelling the production of documents;

( c ) the punishing persons guilty of contempt;

and a summons signed by one or more of the members of the tribunal may be substituted for and shall be equivalent to any formal process capable of being issued in any action for enforcing the attendance of witnesses and compelling the production of documents.

(2) A warrant of committal to prison issued for the purpose of enforcing the powers conferred by this Section shall be signed by one or more of the members of the tribunal, and shall specify the prison to which the offender is to be committed, but shall not authorise the imprisonment of an offender for a period exceeding three months.

(3) A witness before any such tribunal shall be entitled to the same immunities and privileges as if he were a witness before a superior court of justice.

Lords Amendment:

In Sub-section (1), leave out the words,

"in pursuance of a Resolution passed by either House of Parliament, a tribunal (other than a Committee of either House) is established for inquiring into a definite matter of urgent public importance, and it appears expedient that the tribunal should be empowered to take evidence on oath, to enforce the attendance of witnesses, and compel the production of documents,"

and insert,

"it has been resolved (whether before or after the commencement of this Act) by both Houses of Parliament that it is expedient that a tribunal be established for inquiring into a definite matter described in the Resolution as of urgent public importance, and in pursuance of the Resolution a tribunal is appointed for the purpose either by His Majesty or a Secretary of State."

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

Perhaps it will save time if I say at once that I am going to ask the House to agree not only with this Amendment, but with all the Amendments inserted in another place. In my opinion these Amendments do not in the least weaken the Bill, but rather improve it.

What my right hon. Friend has just stated gives me the opportunity of saying that this is an instance of the difficulties under which this House labours in having to take this legislation, as it did, after 11 o'clock at night. This Amendment comes from the Lords, and it and the other Amendments which the Government propose to accept are Amendments which I venture to say would have been moved here and discussed here just as readily as in another place, and I am very glad indeed that there is another place to discuss these matters. I am not discussing the composition of the other place, but that there is a Second Chamber to discuss these matters is a very great public advantage. Of that there is no doubt at all. I only wish to take the opportunity of emphasising the very great disadvantage in which His Majesty's Government places this House.

I rather agree with what the right hon. Gentleman has said, but, lest I should for a moment appear to differentiate between the two front Benches, I should like to call attention to the fact that when this Bill was brought on at 12 o'clock at night, and it was suggested that we should take all three stages on that particular evening, far from getting help from the front Opposition Bench, the right hon. Member for Camborne (Mr. Acland) got up and supported the Government, and it was left, as usual, to Members on the back Benches to protest against a proceeding which is not only dangerous, but likely to bring contempt upon the proceedings of the House. Having said that, I really do ask the House to draw a moral. This was a Bill brought in at 12 o'clock at night, and it was desired to take all three stages at once. I made, I am afraid, rather an impassioned speech against the Bill, and was unable to get any concession. The greatest possible pressure was brought to bear upon us to allow this Bill to go through all its stages that night. At last it was conceded that Amendments might be considered the next evening. I put down Amendments, many of which have been carried out by the House of Lords, but I could only get one carried—I admit an important one and I had to arrange to get that the next day. We, therefore, got this Bill through on the second occasion. It is a Bill dealing directly with the liberty of the subject. In olden days there was a tradition that the House of Commons was supposed to look after the liberty of the subject.

The hon. and learned Gentleman is not entitled to discuss the whole Bill. We are now considering the Lords Amendments, and he must confine himself to those Amendments.

I shall be very careful to keep within the letter of the Amendments. This Bill has been practically altered from end to end since it left this House. Although I do not agree with some parts of the Bill even now, I quite agree with the Attorney General that the Amendments are improvements, and we have to thank another place for having put those Amendments in. The Bill has been reprinted twice, I think, since then, and the Amendments with which we have to deal now are considerable. I do not propose to oppose these Amendments, although I should like to say something on the last Amendment. The present Amendment, which I support, alters Clause 1 very materially, and, further, there are drafting Amendments. Although I appear to be speaking against the Government at the present moment, I am also speaking against the front Opposition bench. I appeal to the Government not to press Bills through at that time of night, and when humble individuals like myself make suggestions— I personally have no sort of feeling against the Government, or any desire to obstruct business—and when one takes the trouble to read Bills of this kind to see if constitutional points are at stake, it is the duty of this House to make the necessary Amendments.

I do not know whether, in view of what has been said, I may be allowed to offer one word by way of reply. My right hon. Friend opposite said that the Bill afforded an illustration of the disadvantage of considering a measure at a late hour in the evening. In my humble opinion it illustrates something totally different. It is an illustration of the mischief which arises when the Government, from excessive kindness, gives way to the too hastily expressed desire of a portion of the House. What happened here? We did not want this Bill; we did not ask for this Bill. A particular investigation was desired. The Government consented to grant that investigation, but it was said that that kind of tribunal would have no power to administer the oath or to compel the attendance of witnesses, and there was a demand from more than one quarter of the House that statutory powers should be given to that tribunal. It was then suggested by the great Leader of this House, whose absence we now deplore, that the occasion might be improved by taking the opportunity of passing, not a particular Bill, but a Bill of general application. That suggestion was assented to in every part of the House. But he then and there proceeded to add that the condition of taking that course must be that there must be no waste of time, no protracted discussion, and that effect should be given immediately to the wish of the House. The Bill was. brought in, not because we wanted it, but in response to the desire of the House. When my hon. and learned Friend goes further and says that the Amendments which have been carried in another place turn the Bill inside out and upside down, I entirely disagree. If that were so, I should not be here asking the House to agree with the Lords Amendments. What the Amendments elsewhere have done is to modify the Bill in four or five important particulars, but that is all. The scheme of the Bill remains. Unfortuntely the Members who are present at one time are not the Members who are present at another time, and right hon. and hon. Members get up to discuss measures the history of which is not present to their minds. The account I have given of the matter is to the best of my knowledge and belief— and I have been present at every stage of the Bill—a perfectly correct one.

Did not the conditions asked for by the Leader of the House only extend to the Bill when directed to the particular inquiry and not to the Bill when it was a general one?

Is it not a fact, really, that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is rather distorting the facts as they really were? What the House asked was that a special inquiry should be held into certain allegations, and the Government has armed itself with very extraordinary powers, which, in another place, on examination, which was not permitted in this House on account of the time at which the Bill was taken, are found to be of a most drastic and objectionable kind; and is it not a fact that the Government have had to water down their proposals, which, in their amended form, remain extremely objectionable?

I think what the hon. and gallant Gentleman has said is quite inaccurate. The Government yielded, I think against their better judgment, to an opinion expressed in many parts of the House that there should be an Act of general application.

I should like to say, as I have been present on all the occasions this Bill has been under discussion, that the description the Attorney-General has given of its history is perfectly accurate. What has been put forward by other Members is perfectly inaccurate.

Question put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendments:

In Sub-section (1), leave out the word "thereof" ["or a judge thereof"], and insert "of either such Court."

In Sub-section (1, a ), leave out the words "and the issuing of a commission or request to examine witnesses abroad."

In Sub-section (1, c ), leave out the words "the punishing persons guilty of contempt" and insert "subject to rules of Court the issuing of a commission or request to examine witnesses abroad."

Agreed to.

Lords Amendment:

Leave out Sub-section (2), and insert,

"(2) If any person—

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Sir G. Hewart. ]

The right hon. and learned Gentleman said there was no material alteration in the Bill. The original Clause was one to which I very strongly objected, for it gave power to this tribunal to commit a person to gaol for three months, so far as I understand it. I understand that the Amendment proposes to qualify that, and I should like to know whether there is any power now to commit anybody to prison, or whether that power to which I objected to very strongly has been taken out of the Bill?

My hon. and learned Friend seems to betray an excessive desire to say "I told you so." What this Amendment provides is that whereas the Bill gave a wide power to the tribunal itself to commit to gaol, the chairman of the tribunal will certify the facts to the High Court and the High Court will have the power of punishment.

There will be a trial before committal?

Question put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendment:

In Sub-section (3) leave out the words "a superior court of justice," and insert "the High Court or the Court of Session."

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Sir G. Hewart. ]

Here again is an Amendment which I ventured to suggest before. I have heard of a superior person, but I have never heard before of a superior Court of Justice!

Question put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 2.—(Powers of tribunals as to exclusion of public and granting right of audience.)

Any tribunal to which this Act is so applied as aforesaid shall have power—

( a ) to allow or refuse to allow the public or any portion of the public to be present at any of the proceedings of the tribunal;

( b ) to authorise the representation before them of any person appearing to them to be interested to be by counsel or solicitor or otherwise, or to refuse to allow such representation.

Lords Amendment:

Leave out the word "Any" ["Any tribunal to which"] and insert "a."

Agreed to.

Lords Amendment:

Leave out the words

"shall have power—

"( a ) shall not refuse to allow the public or any portion of the public to be present at any of the proceedings of the tribunal unless in the opinion of the tribunal it is in the public interest expedient so to do for reasons connected with the subject matter of the inquiry or the nature of the evidence to be given; and

( b ) shall have power".

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.—[ Sir G. Hewart. ]

I desire to ask whether the Government could not go a little further in this matter than the Lords? If I understand it aright—the Attorney-General will correct me if I am wrong—in the ordinary Courts of Justice sitting in public there is no power to exclude the public, whatever be the nature of the case.

On the contrary, it is part of the jurisdiction of every properly constituted court to hold its proceedings in camera if it thinks it right to do so.

Then in any case it appears to me to be very undesirable. Of course I accept the statement of law of the right hon. Gentleman—as we ought to do—without the slightest question. As a matter of fact, I am rather doubtful as to whether it is desirable to give this special tribunal power to exclude the public. I quite agree there might be cases in which they ought to do so. But Parliament should be asked for special power in cases of the sort. I do not like this idea when we are setting up tribunals which are to inquire into such matters as allegations against the Munitions Department and things of that sort that have been referred from time to time to Select Committees of this House. I suggest, and later would be prepared to move, that it would be better to leave out the words

"Unless in the opinion of the tribunal it is in the public interest expedient so to do for reasons connected with the subject-matter of the inquiry or the nature of the evidence to be given."

This cannot be done now. I have put the Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

Would it not be possible to disapprove of the Lords Amendment, and to put another Amend- ment in its place—to reinsert words or similar words to achieve the object I desire?

If the House disagreed with the Lords Amendment, then the words in the Bill as it left this House would be restored.

It is desirable that the House should know where it stands before we come to a vote on this matter. I would submit that we ought to disagree, with this Amendment, those of us who desire to vote, "no," on the understanding that, having disapproved of the Amendment, it will be possible to move in the direction I suggest. I have often seen it done, and I desire to substitute an Amendment to impose greater obligation on the tribunal for publicity. But I will not take that course unless I am sure we can do it.

May I make an appeal to my hon. and learned Friend? I do really think that he is under some little misapprehension in this matter. As the Bill was originally drafted—and it followed more than one precedent—it provided that the tribunal should have power to allow or to forbid the public to be present at the proceedings of the tribunal. Those were perfectly general powers. The tribunal might exercise that power at its own unfettered discretion. The Amendment has limited the generality of those powers of the tribunal, and has defined the grounds upon which that exclusion may take place. Those are that in the opinion of the tribunal it is in the public interest expedient to exclude the public for reasons connected with the subject matter of the inquiry or the nature of the evidence to be given. If these words are now taken out we shall have to provide some even more narrow words or no words at all, and then the effect—the ridiculous effect—might be that you would have, and have for the first time I think, a tribunal, so far as Statute is concerned, which would not have the power to exclude the public even for the reasons I have stated, and where the tribunal was satisfied that that course should be taken. I appeal to the Noble Lord not to press his objection.

I quite agree with the law as to sitting in camera but does it apply, for instance, to a tribunal like the Marconi inquiry set up by this House? If these tribunals can exclude the public in the same way there is no need for this. The only point I am making is that if they have that power this Clause is unnecessary.

If my recollection be right, the particular inquiry to which my hon. and learned Friend refers was conducted by a Committee of this House. It was not a tribunal of this kind.

There was an Amendment here to exclude Committees of the House, but those Committees are now included in the Bill if there be a Resolution backed by both Houses to that effect.

I understand from the Chair that there is considerable difficulty, technically, in carrying out the object that I have in view, and, after what the Attorney-General has said, I will not press my Amendment.

If the words originally in the Bill were restored, then an Amendment to those words would be in order.

Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendment:

In paragraph (

"where the party appearing to be interested is a trade union or a member of a trade union, and so desires, to be by an official or other member of that trade union instead of by counsel or solicitor."

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the Lords Amendment, after the word "union" ["interested is a trade union"] to insert "or a corporation."

I am thoroughly in accord with the spirit of the Lords Amendment, but I object that a trade union should be given a greater privilege than any corporation or body of persons who may desire to be represented by their chairman or secretary or anyone with skill to appear on their behalf. My Amend- ment, I hope, gives effect to the Bill as it was originally introduced, which gave power to the tribunal to allow the parties to appear by "counsel or solicitor or other wise." The Lords have crossed the "t's" and dotted the "i's," and I wish to go a step further and to give any corporation similar power to that given to a trade union to refrain from the expense consequent on the employment of counsel or solicitor and to appear by any member of their body who is skilled to present the case in which they are interested. I hope the Government will accept the Amendment, and that it will be acceptable to another place.

There is not the least doubt that my hon. and learned Friend's Amendment is essentially reasonable, but, if all things are reasonable, all things are not expedient, and amendment now, would have the effect of delaying the tribunal which we are seeking to set up. The case which my hon. and learned Friend contemplates is very rarely likely to arise, and I hope, in order to expedite the passage of the Bill and not because of any observations made adversely to the suggestion on the ground of principle, that be will not persist in his Amendment.

I understand that this tribunal is not likely to be set up during the Easter Recess, and, unless the Attorney-General tells me that there is that likelihood, I shall beg leave to proceed with my Amendment, because I regard it as a matter of principle that this should not be used to form a precedent.

I certainly support the Government here. The Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend is most objectionable, and I am surprised that he should have moved such a wicked Amendment. I quite agree that this is a very objectionable precedent, but to suggest that the rich and prosperous corporations for which my hon. and learned Friend speaks on these occasions should be entitled to economise in this way is anti-waste run riot. I therefore hope that he will withdraw his Amendment. I cannot see why this particular privilege should be given to the trades union—it applies not only to workpeople but to employers as well—and it does seem to me an extraordinary precedent. The only reason I do not oppose the Lords Amendment is because it is better than the Bill as it stands. The words "or otherwise" give wider power, and it is better that it should be in the form proposed in the Lords Amendment. A further objection to that Amendment is that it does not deal with the refusal to allow such representation, but I suppose it is too late to press that point now. The Lords Amendment is objectionable, but it is better than the original form of the Bill.

I have much pleasure in supporting the Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend. It is one of the glories of our courts that every man can appear for himself and does not need to employ counsel or solicitor if he be capable of appearing for himself. Of course, he generally, makes a mistake in doing so, and it is always said that the man who is his own counsel has a fool for his client. A corporation or a trade union has a personality, but it is a legal personality and not a physical personality, and it has not the power to appear at the inquiry except the privilege be given to it. I do not think that wealthy corporations or trades unions will ever think of sending their secretary or chairman. They know that counsel are much too valuable. They know the use of them, and they will employ them. There may be, however, endless small cases where it is not fair, just because they happen to be framed in the personality of a corporation, that they should not have the right to appear by a representative. Therefore, in the general interest, I think the Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend is the wiser one.

I have a suggestion to make on this matter. It is that we should disagree with the Lords Amendment, and leave the provisions of the Bill in the same form in this respect as that in which they were when the Bill left this House. The House will observe that the Bill will then provide, not that any person may appear by counsel, or solicitor, or otherwise, but that the tribunal shall have power

"to authorise the representation before them of any person appearing to them to be interested to be by counsel, or solicitor, or otherwise."

In other words, the Bill will do no more than permit the tribunal to allow a particular person to be represented in this way, and that being so, one cannot conceive that the tribunal would withhold such permission in a proper case or grant it without good reason. I suggest that the hon. Member for Bristol (Mr. Inskip) should withdraw his Amendment.

I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment to the Lords Amendment. The Motion will then, I understand, be to disagree with the Lords Amendment.

Amendment to Lords Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Sir G. Hewart. ]

Before that be agreed to, I do hope that the Government will reconsider this point. The Lords Amendment was, I think, a very distinct improvement on the original Bill. There has been much feeling against the original Bill, which was put in such broad terms as "or otherwise." Those are very wide terms indeed, much wider than anything which exists at present, and so many representations have been made from the Law Society and the Bar Council and other bodies on this point, that to leave the Bill in this very vague and unsatisfactory state would be, I think, unwise. I submit that the Lords Amendment is considerably better than the form in which the Bill originally stood, and that to put in such a Clause as "or otherwise" would be really giving a tribunal a power that exists in no law court at the present time. I suggest that this tribunal ought to be in as near as possible the position of the Law Courts. The power under the Government's proposal is indeed going very far, and I do appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General to adhere to his original proposal that we should agree with the Lords in the said Amendment. I do hope that either here or elsewhere the Lords Amendment will be reinserted.

Question put, and agreed to.

Ordered, That a Committee be appointed to draw up reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing, to one of their Amendments to the Bill.

Committee nominated of Sir Gordon Hewart, Major Hamilton, Mr. Inskip, Mr. George Thorne, and Mr. Robert Young.

Three to be the quorum.

To withdraw immediately. —[SIR G. HEWART.]

Reason for disagreeing to one of the Lords Amendments reported, and agreed to.

To be communicated to the Lords. —[SIR G. HEWART.]

Easter Recess (Adjournment)

Resolved, "That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn until Monday, 4th April."—[ Lord Edmund Talbot. ]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Lord E. Talbot. ]

Railwaymen, Ireland

I am sorry that the Prime Minister has been compelled to leave the House, as I am going into an Irish matter. I want to ask my Noble Friend (Lord E. Talbot) if he will be good enough to convey to the Prime Minister, in view of the statements made by him last night that the inquiry into the Mallow incident disproves the evidence submitted to me in regard to the shooting, that it is fair to this House and the country, having regard to the particular circumstances of the case and the diversity of evidence, the full report of the inquiry should be published. Whatever may be the objection to the publication of previous inquiries, having regard to what has taken place in connection with the Mallow incident and the fact that counsel was engaged and that counsel has supplied his report of the proceedings, unless the Government agree to the full publication of the full report of that inquiry the difficulties which some of us will be in will be that we shall be com- pelled to rely solely on statements from our own counsel. I am sure that the House generally will agree that that will create a very bad impression and will lead to all manner of questions. I do urge on my Noble Friend that he should press the Prime Minister at least to agree that the Mallow Report shall be made public so that the British public who, after all, are interested as well as the Irish public, shall have a full opportunity of judging exactly what took place and what is proved by that inquiry.

Having said that, I will now proceed to deal with the case in connection with which I have given notice to my right hon. Friend. The facts of this case appear to be agreed upon. The whole point turns on whether the Government possesses the necessary power to remedy what appears to be a grievance and what is contrary to their expressed opinion, as I shall endeavour to show, and what is also contrary to the agreement to which they themselves compelled us to agree, and whether, in the event of their not having that power, they will take the necessary power to deal with the situation. I want to submit to the House that if the Government themselves are a party, to an agreement—and I would draw the attention of employers of labour in this House to this question—they are entitled to complain against any trade unions which do not observe that agreement. They are entitled to say that the leaders of any trade union ought always to insist upon the observance of any agreement they may make. So far as I am concerned, I never yet hesitated to stand by that opinion. I have never hesitated to do so publicly, and for my part I would never be a party to making any agreement unless that agreement was observed by my own men. In the same way, I do submit that we are entitled to expect that same standard of honour from an employer. We are entitled to say that if an employer makes an agreement he must observe that agreement. The whole basis of collective bargaining would be destroyed unless that fact was recognised, and in the same way I would put it that, whatever may be said in favour of an employer and an employé and a trade union keeping an agreement, there are a thousand stronger reasons why, if the Government themselves are parties to an agreement, they themselves should see that that agreement is kept. The House will remember that the Irish railwaymen refused to carry munitions, with the result that thousands of them were suspended and dismissed. It covered a period of nearly six months and it looked at one time as if the whole of Irish industry would be dissipated. It is only fair to say that that decision—I am expressing no opinion at the moment—was arrived at by the Irishmen themselves after consultation with their unions, or agreement with their unions. They merely argued this way. They said, "Here is this war going on and we are refusing to be parties to carrying munitions which may slaughter our own people." Whatever the views of hon. Members may be as to the merits of the Irish situation, they will at least understand and appreciate those sentiments. The result was—and I ask the House to note that here is where the Government are responsible—the Government themselves insisted upon the railway company dismissing these men. I know the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport will say they have no power to compel the reinstatement of them, but I draw the attention of the House to the fact that there were certain railway companies in Ireland who did not feel disposed to deal with their employés in the same way as the Ministry of Transport thought that they ought to do. On more than one occasion the Ministry of Transport insisted that the railway companies should dismiss, the men for disobeying the rule. What followed? The result was that they said to the railway companies, "If you do not dismiss these men, then we will not grant you the subsidy." The lever they had with the Irish railway companies was this, that the Irish railway companies, being dependent upon their revenue from the Ministry of Transport, if they failed to give effect to the Ministry's decision in this matter, the Ministry could stop the subsidy. The House will appreciate what a lever that was.

The result was that in December last year there were, roughly, 2,000 men actually dismissed or thrown out of employment as the result of the situation in Ireland. My union decided to call a conference. We called the whole of the Irish railwaymen together, and here let me say what the Minister of Transport knows perfectly well, that it was taking a big risk to do that; it was with considerable opposition and hostility in Ireland that a conference was called. As the result of that conference the men decided to resume their normal work and carry any traffic. The result was that I was empowered to submit their decision to the Ministry of Transport, and after discussing the matter with the Prime Minister, as well as with my right hon. Friend, an agreement was drafted in the form of a letter. I do not think there will be any dispute about the facts. We discussed whether it should be an ordinary formal agreement or whether it should be in the form of an exchange of letters, but there is no question that both sides accepted it as an agreement. I will only quote one paragraph from the letter of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport. After setting forth the facts of the case, he said:

That letter was the letter I expected from my right hon. Friend, and showed clearly what was in his mind—that so far as he, speaking for the Government, was concerned, he intended this agreement to be carried out honourably as between both sides. What did the Great Northern Railway of Ireland do? Before they agreed to give effect to the decision or reinstate any of the men, they first broke the agreement by insisting that every man should sign an individual undertaking, although, as I have already shown, the agreement was a general agreement covering all.

I had better explain that when the Irish railways were taken over by the Government, all questions affecting conditions of wages and such like were determined by the Ministry of Transport after consultation with the Irish railway companies, and I can only conclude that when the Minister of Transport made the agreement he had previously consulted the Irish railway companies concerned. Whether he did or not, I do not know, but at all events, as far as we are concerned, the British taxpayer was paying the subsidy in Ireland, and it was under the control of the Minister of Transport.

I only put the point because the right hon. Gentleman said the railway company broke the agreement. He had not said the railway company was a party to the agreement. Obviously, if they were not a party to the agreement they could not commit a breach of it.

I presume my hon. Friend had noted that the agreement was made by the Government. I have read part of the agreement of which there is no dispute. It was an agreement between ourselves and the Government. The Government in this case represented the railway company, and in the quotation that I read from my right hon. Friend's letter he pointed out he was acquainting the railway companies of his views. I can only conclude that prior to the agreement being made the Minister of Trans- port knew perfectly well what the feelings of the railway companies on this matter were. Incidentally that is rather borne out by the fact that, curiously enough, only one railway company in Ireland has departed from the agreement. The construction to put on that would be that either in consultation or by pressure my right hon. Friend has compelled the whole of the other railways to agree, and the only exception is the Great Northern in Ireland. They made an exception by insisting upon an individual signed statement from every man before he was employed, which, as you will see, is contrary to the agreement.

Will the sight hon. Gentleman indicate as to how that signed statement is contrary to the agreement.

Because in the agreement I have already read to the House my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Geddes) and myself agreed that that was a general agreement covering the whole of the men, because you could not go in the then state of Ireland to 19,000 men and say, "We want individual agreements from you," and it was agreed by my right hon. Friend and myself that there should be a general agreement just as there is in a strike or a dispute. When a settlement is made in a strike it is made on behalf of the men, and there is no individual agreement following it. This was the settlement of a dispute where the agreement spoke for and covered those who were involved by it. In a miners' dispute or a railway dispute, after a general agreement was made no one would suggest that the employer had to get an individual agreement from every man involved in the dispute. In that sense it was a general agreement.

I have already indicated the Clause with regard to victimisation but in this individual agreement that I am now dealing with, the company also insisted on the men signing these words: was an intolerable position because it happened at a time when everyone felt that, having settled this munition trouble in Ireland, we have not only got over the difficulty but we are creating a very good atmosphere and we went beyond that, and felt that here at last the Irish railwaymen would be able to appreciate the action of the Government in the matter. So that there need be no dispute as to the facts, the latest letter of the Prime Minister shows that, notwithstanding all the pressure of the Ministry of Transport, the prime Minister himself has utterly failed to move these people. This is a letter dated 8th March, which is the last of several letters: be able to bring pressure, because the Irish railway companies are dependent upon the British Treasury. I do not complain in the least of the terms of the agreement, because I know he has done all that is humanly possible in bringing home to these people the necessity of observing their agreement. But, notwithstanding that, in the interests of collective bargaining, in the interests of re-establishing confidence, in the interests of at least telling these people the British Government will insist upon any obligation they enter into, I avail myself of this, the only opportunity of drawing the attention of the House to the matter.

I am very glad the right hon. Gentleman has brought this matter to public discussion if, as I gather from him, there is some feeling amongst the railwaymen in Ireland that the Government has failed in its complete performance of the very honourable understanding that was arrived at between my right hon. Friend and the Ministry of Transport with reference to the ending of this dispute. It is most desirable that there should be no opportunity for misunderstanding upon a question of the bona fides of Government action in this matter. I recognise with great satisfaction the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, to which publicity is flow given fully for the first time, that the trade union of which he is so distinguished a leader had no part or lot, either direct or indirect, in inducing the men to take that unfortunate action which they took in declining to carry out their duties as railwaymen and to carry the forces of the Crown and the stores belonging to the Crown. This was not a trade dispute in any sense. It was one of those unhappy incidents in the history of the last 12 months in Ireland where there has been a political struggle between the forces of the Crown and between some of His Majesty's subjects. Just as the right hon. Gentleman has explained that neither he personally nor his union had any share in the commencement of this dispute, may I ask him to accept from me the statement that his information is not completely accurate in the part which the Government played with reference to that dispute. He has said that the dismissal and the suspension of the men by the various railway companies was in consequence of some order or some action taken by the Minister of Transport. We cannot accept that statement as correct. It was obviously the duty of these railwaymen to carry such goods and persons as were entrusted to their care. It was the obvious duty of the railway companies to see that those goods and passengers were so carried, and the only orders issued by the Minister of Transport were orders directing the railway companies to carry out their statutory duty as common carriers of goods and to carry passengers who were tendered in the ordinary course. My right hon. Friend opposite will find on closer investigation that in no instance did the Minister of Transport direct either the dismissal or the suspension of a single railwayman, nor did he withdraw or threaten to withdraw the subsidy which arises under the Railway Agreement. He was advised that he had no such legal power, and the only step that he took was the issuing of the direction calling upon the companies to do their duty in the matter of carrying the traffic.

That brings me to the happier part of this controversy, where, through the influence of my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, there was brought to an end that which was a very serious state of things, not only for the railwaymen and the railway companies, but for the whole country of Ireland. There is no doubt that matters were getting to an extremely acute stage. Districts were, being cut off from ordinary transport facilities, and considerable hardships were, being inflicted upon members of the public in Ireland. It is right, and I do it gratefully, to acknowledge that the good services of my right hon. Friend were used in the interests of putting an end to that dispute. I should be very sorry indeed if he were to think that there had been any failure in reciprocal act on the part of the Ministry of Transport to carry out the arrangement. What was that arrangement? The settlement was arrived at in an interview on the 21st December, and on the following day the Minister of Transport, writing to my right hon. Friend, used this phrase:

Will the hon. Gentleman read the answer of the company to that? That is the important part.

I would ask my right hon. Friend to bear with me for a moment. I hope I have made it perfectly clear to the House that the Minister of Transport redeemed immediately and to the full the promise which he had made to my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby. The company immediately took up the view that they could not accept that position, and they gave reasons. I hold no brief either for or against this particular rail- way company, but they pointed out, not only in correspondence but at an interview which the Minister had personally with the chairman of the company and some of his directors on the 3rd January, that they were not in a position to reinstate the whole of their men; and the reasons they gave—I neither confirm nor dispute them, but simply state them—were that a large number of their men were refusing to work if they reinstated the whole of the men who had been suspended or dismissed. In particular, they called attention to the fact that they had extensively signed petitions from members of the Union which is led by my right hon. Friend, to the effect that they would not work with some of those men who had declined their duty before the settlement of the dispute. The Minister pressed the matter as far as it was possible for him to do so. He wrote more than once to this Company, and, as I have said, he had a personal interview on the 3rd of January with the chairman and some of the directors. He pressed his view upon them, and urged them as far as he possibly could to fall into line with the rest of Ireland in this matter, so that there might be a complete resumption of friendly relations, so far as that is possible—if I may say so—in a disturbed district like the North of Ireland. Those representations were not successful. It is no part of my duty to pass judgment upon the Company. They had their own particular difficulties, which appealed to them. The Minister was very anxious to get the fullest agreement, and to meet the men represented by my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby precisely in the same spirit in which he had been met by my right hon. Friend. His efforts, however, were not successful.

I want now to give the precise position to-day, and to show to how great an extent the railwaymen have been reinstated in Ireland. The total number who were dismissed or suspended during the course of this dispute throughout the whole of Ireland was not so large as my right hon. Friend thought. It was, so far as my information goes—and I have details from every company—991.

Of course, you have not the details of those who were automatically thrown out because of the refusal of others.

No. I have simply the men who came under disciplinary action by their respective companies for refusing to handle this traffic, and who were the subject of my right hon. Friend's appeal for reinstatement. The figures total up to 991. Of those, there were back at work two days ago 957, leaving a balance of 34 who have not found their way back into employment. The whole of those 34 are men who were employed by the Great Northern of Ireland Railway.

One company—a company, be it noted, that has its particular difficulties, because of the men who remained firm and at work, sometimes in the face of great personal danger, and who had taken the view that they would not go back to work with the men who shirked the danger when it was there. Whether that was a view that ought to be maintained, or should be abandoned as part of the general settlement, I leave to the judgment of the House, but there were 34 men who were not back at work. Of these, there are 16 whom the company have said quite definitely that they do not intend to reinstate. There are 18 who can be reabsorbed at once, if they sign the undertaking which was put before them, and which many of their fellows have signed, namely, that they will do their duty in the future, and, in particular, acknowledge that their membership of the Pension Fund is a matter that has to be settled, not by the company, but by the committee of the Pensions Fund, because it is a statutory fund administered by a statutory committee.

I want to add one or two words of a general character. My right hon. Friend suggested that the Minister has power to compel reinstatement, or, at any rate, should take it. May I point out that my right hon. Friend is raising a question of much greater significance than one which is necessarily within the ambit of this particular dispute. The Ministry of Transport Act does not give the Minister the power of saying that any particular person shall or shall not be employed, and if power ever were given to a Minister of the Crown to determine the exact personnel of the staff of any undertaking, it seems to me it would result in an absence of discipline amongst the staff that would certainly bring about a position intolerable for any Minister if he had to decide whether a man was to be engaged, discharged, or suspended from a particular service. That power is not vested in the Ministry to-day, and I should be very much surprised if Parliament ever gave it to any particular Minister in the future. I hope nothing I have said will make it difficult for this company to reconsider its decision. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to think that the efforts of my right hon. Friend and his colleagues had been crowned with complete success, and that there was no room for any difference of opinion as to the way in which the companies or the Government have carried out their undertaking.

League of Nations, Mandates

I desire to address to the Government one or two questions in connection with the present position in regard to Mandates. The House will be aware from the letters in the public Press and from newspaper articles, as well as from what has happened in recent weeks in another place, that there is still a considerable amount of doubt and anxiety with regard to the constitutional position of this House and the country in relation to the Mandates and in relation to the League of Nations. It is most important the Government should at the earliest possible moment clear up what to my mind is an evident misconception of the functions of the League of Nations. It seems to be imagined by some that the League of Nations is imposing upon this country and on this House certain conditions which will involve expenditure which would not otherwise have to be undertaken without Parliament having been previously con-salted. That I take it to be the gravamen of the charge at the moment. I think the whole misunderstanding has come about owing to the fact that the British Government prepared their draft Mandates in secret, and presented those draft Mandates to the Council of the League of Nations without previously publishing them, so that those who might desire to make any representations regarding them in this House or outside should have an opportunity of doing so before His Majesty's Government threw the responsibility of the decision on to the Council of the League of Nations. I should like to ask, whoever may reply on behalf of the Government, to clear up this point. The conditions in regard to the Mesopotamian and Palestine Mandates are not conditions drawn up or prepared by the League of Nations, but are conditions drawn up solely by His Majesty's Government and their officials, and, so far from the League of Nations having endeavoured to impose them upon this House, as a matter of fact it is entirely the British Government which has sought to do that without previously consulting the House of Commons.

The next question I have to put is, whether the further consideration of these draft mandates has again been postponed. We understand that the American Government has raised the question of the oil in Mesopotamia, and has submitted a Note to the British Government, and to the Council of the League of Nations, to this effect, that the Anglo-French Agreement, regarding oil in Mesopotamia, infringes the rights of American subjects. Is it for that reason we have had to postpone the consideration of the draft mandates, not only for Mesopotamia but also for Palestine, Togoland, the Cameroons, and German East Africa? I cannot for the life of me understand what is happening at the present moment with regard to the mandates. It really is an intolerable situation. The French and ourselves are carrying on a temporary administration, but whenever progress is required or any practical work has to be done for the development of these countries, or towards setting on foot a real constitutional establishment, we always come up against the fact that the mandate has not yet been defined or decided upon. The longer the delay the less hope there is of balancing expenditure and revenue, and the less hope there is also of getting real progress and real stability in these various matters.

My third question is why have we not yet had the draft Mandate for what was German East Africa? We have had the Palestine, the Mesopotamian and other Mandates published in a White Paper, but the Government still persists in keeping back the Tanganyika grant. I cannot understand the reason why that is being kept so secret. Everybody knows that, somehow or other, "The Times" has got a draft, and I want to ask whether that is the correct draft; also when that draft was prepared by the Colonial Office, and when it was sent to the Council of the League; also what action has been taken on it. The draft as published in "The Times" is marked by several important lacunae or omissions, while it contains some equally astonishing provisions. It is perhaps not for me to go into this; question. I would like to draw attention to one or two of them. Take a question which has been raised in this House on several occasions, that of liquor. Why should it be laid down in the Mandate for Nauru, in the Mandate for Samoa, and in other Mandates that the supply of intoxicating and spirituous liquors to the natives should be prohibited, whereas there is no such provision in the Tanganyika draft? It is put in the question of regulation.

When one considers drafts of this kind, one feels that if this question had been left out of the Nauru mandate there would have been no necessity to imply that you were going to do something in regard to German East Africa, A great many people are worried to know what it is. I have been talking to various people on the subject, and the answer I have got is this: "The German Government before the War always had to give an Imperial subsidy in order to make both ends meet in German East Africa, and the only way you will be able in the initial years to make your revenue and expenditure balance is by selling gin to the natives." That has been quite openly stated to me. Is that the policy of His Majesty's Government? Are they going to make up their expenditure in German East Africa, by selling spirits to the natives of that country? If they say "No, that is not our intention," I say that it may not be the intention of the present Government, and it is essential that when you have drawn up the lengthy series of conditions which have been described by the late Leader of the House as in the nature of a treaty you cannot leave these things in the air. If you are going to define what is to be done with the land, what is to be done in regard to forced labour, and what is to be done in regard to concessions and trade, then if you refer to liquor at all you must make your position explicable. I know the sort of answer that will be given: "We do not want to be tied down." Then why are you tied down in Nauru and not in East Africa?

The next point in connection with the draft is the question of slavery: The phrases as published in the "Times" newspaper regarding slavery are rather amazing. We all thought that the mandatory areas were going to be models of what native administration should be. They were going to set the highest possible standard which civilised nations have reached. In a British colony the status of slavery is not recognised; but apparently in ex-German East Africa the old status of slavery which existed under the German régime is still to go on, and it is to be eliminated as circumstances permit. Surely when you are drawing up a legal instrument which is in the nature of a treaty, if you are going to refer to slavery at all you ought to say, "The legal status of slavery is abolished once and for all." That seems to me the right sort of phrase to use. What is done in Nigeria ought to be done in Tanganyika territory. The most remarkable omission from the draft is that there is nothing to say what is the status of the inhabitants of the territory. Are they British subjects or are they subjects of the State of Tanganyika? It is not only natives born there who live in that territory; but there are Indians and other people who live there. What is their status? The draft is absolutely silent on that point. What will be their position when they travel? In other drafts there is a provision that when any Palestinian goes abroad he is entitled to the protection and representation of the mandatory Power. There is nothing of that kind in the draft with regard to the 7,000,000 inhabitants of the Tanganyika territory. These are the sort of questions which must be defined if the mandatory principle is to exist at all.

I want to ask next whether His Majesty's Government are going to submit the Report which has been asked for by the League on what has been happening in these territories since the occupation or since some date up to the time when the mandate came into force. That was the recommendation of the Assembly at Geneva. In this connection I would urge my hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Amery), in respect of Mesopotamia, Palestine, Nauru, and Tanganyika Territories, to issue at the earliest possible moment a report, even when it is only on the lines of the current colonial reports which this House gets every year. It is extraordinarily difficult to get to know exactly what has been going on, what amount of revenue has been raised, what laws have been passed, and what is the administration. This country is responsible for these four territories, and we have practically no information as to how the trust has been carried out during the last year. The League, I understand, have asked for a report in this connection. The mandatory system came into legal operation on the 10th January, 1920, that is to say, on the ratification of the Treaty of Versailles, because the Treaty of Versailles contained the provision establishing the mandatory system. When that Treaty was ratified by the British Government, the British Crown, and the British Parliament our signature to the system became valid, and we became honourably bound to carry out that system. When newspapers, as they do now, say, "Away with the mandatory system; we will ignore it altogether!" they seem to forget that it is an integral part of the Treaty of Versailles, and if you scrap the mandatory system you scrap the Treaty of Versailles. When the "Daily Express" and the "Morning Post" storm as they do against the mandatory system they ought to recollect, when they are so very keen to retain other portions of the Treaty of Versailles, that one cannot when once our signature as a nation is given in respect of a principle of this sort turn round and say, "We will get out of it."

Certainly, but the League did not confer the mandate upon us. The League did not establish the mandatory system. These territories were not given to the League. The League has no status in the matter. The German sovereignty in ex-German East Africa was transferred under the Treaty to the principal allied and associated powers, and the principal allied and associated powers conferred the mandate upon this country, and not upon the League. The League never was consulted. The League never had anything to do with it. It was done by the Supreme Council at San Remo. The conditions were not laid down by the League, but were drawn up in the Foreign Office and the Colonial Office in this country. I know that certain people are very anxious to use the prejudices against expenditure on these territories in order to destroy the League. My hon. Friend the Member for East Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees) wishes to use any stick he can get hold of to beat the League of Nations.

Let him come out into the open; let the position be cleared, and let his constituents know it, and take the necessary action. In this connection, in regard to Mesopotamia, the greatest amount of prejudice has been created by the statement that the League of Nations is forcing us to spend money in Mesopotamia. My own view is that if from the very commencement we had carried out in spirit and letter rather more closely Article 22 of the Covenant of the League, we should never have had quite so heavy military expenditure in Mesopotamia. Persons, forgetting the declarations that have been made in regard to the Arabs and the establishment of an Arab Government in that country, flooded the country with very expensive officials, which was inconsistent with the whole mandatory idea and has been one of the forces which have led to this heavy expenditure. One of the causes admitted by Miss Bell in the extraordinarily interesting White Paper published last autumn as a Parliamentary Paper on the subject of Mesopotamia was the Anglo-Persian Agreement. She describes how it created difficulties for us. Thank Heaven that that agreement is now dead!

In passing, I may convey congratulations to the Foreign Office that that disastrous agreement has fortunately been scrapped by a patriotic and stable Persian Government. I hope that the Foreign Office will convey the congratulations of this House and this country to our representatives at Teheran for the admirable way in which they got us out of those commitments, and facilitated the establishment of a decent Government in Persia in place of the corrupt, effete and thoroughly unsatisfactory Government which originally attempted to conclude the agreement contrary to the wish of the whole mass of the Persian people. This is an illustration of how attempts have been made to prejudice the mandatory system by attributing to it and to the League of Nations expenditure, undertakings and obligations which are not of the League's creation, or of the mandatory system, but of the Supreme Council, and of policy and administrative action which have nothing to do with the League of Nations. As regards the future in Mesopotamia, I see that the Foreign Secretary in another place has said that:

One word more in connection with the general position of these mandates. I understand that nearly all our mandates have been published except that for East Africa, which is still held back. We understood from the Leader of the House in reply to questions that not only would our drafts be published, but also the French drafts for Syria, Togoland, and the Cameroons, and, of course, there are portions of Togoland and the Cameroons which are to be under our mandate. Are we to have those drafts also, not that this House would want to criticise—this is not the place to criticise—the French drafts, but as they have been promised to the House we ought to know when they are likely to be given, and, above all, whether they are likely to be published before the Council of the League is asked by His Majesty's Government or the French Government to give its final ratification to the drafts so submitted. Nobody supposes that the Council of the League is going to alter these drafts or do much to them. It is really the question of the possibility of making these drafts the permanent treaty instruments resulting from the Treaty of Peace. Nobody supposes that the Council of the League is not yet provided with a staff of experience and knowledge to give, as it were, an opinion on these details. Therefore what it means in fact is that the draft as submitted by the respective mandatory powers will become the mandate unless the Parliaments of those mandatory powers interfere, as it were, to make criticism and make suggestions with a view to ensuring, not only that the mandatory principle is practically carried out, and that the terms of the Treaty are carried out, but also that it is done in a manner consonant with the spirit, intentions, and ideals of the particular country which is to have the responsibility thrown upon it of undertaking these mandates. It is essential, to my mind, that before the Council of the League is asked to ratify these documents, His Majesty's Government should take both Houses of Parliament fully into their confidence, and that there should be a full discussion, not a Committee discussion, of these drafts which are in the nature of treaties before they are finally ratified. Once they are ratified they become in the nature of honourable international understandings between the parties.

I know the hon. Member for Nottingham is frightened of the Mandate Commission. May I, as a future Member of that Commission, point out to him that under the constitution of the Commission it will not order this country or any other to do this, that or the other thing. The Mandate Commission is a body sitting in a judicial capacity to compare the annual reports with the terms of the Treaty. That is purely advisory work, and its sole function is to examine the annual reports, and if there is anything in a report which conflicts with the terms of the Treaty the Commission will point it out. The whole basis of the League, the whole basis of this Article or any other Article of the League, depends upon publicity and upon the Parliaments of the various countries taking action as a result of publicity. It is only by open diplomacy that we shall ever get these questions satisfactorily settled. With regard to things like the African mandates, it is the one way. All too little attention has been given by Members of this House to Crown Colony administration and to the growing problems connected with the treatment of native races both of Asia and of Africa. We have been busy with wages and unemployment, and it has been left more or less to the Departments working in their own grooves in Whitehall to deal with the matter in their own way. If we are to make any step forward in mandatory territory it is essential that there should be more light in the dark places and more attention given to developments and the condition under which our trust is being executed in these various territories. That is why it is so important that every step should be taken to publish as much as possible and to present an annual report to this House as well as to the League as to what is being done and what the policy is.

3.0 P.M.

The present state of affairs regarding the mandates to be given for all these territories is very largely due to the fact that when the Peace Treaty was ratified by this House we were under the impression that every other nation would ratify the Treaty. Consequently, the Government of this country, certainly the Parliament of this country, did not pay sufficient attention to the details of the Peace Treaty and did not have a sufficient number of Debates in this House and in another place on the subject. I cannot believe that if they had done so they would have accepted everything that is laid down in the Peace Treaty without some sort of assurance that every other Power, at any rate all the five principal Allied and Associated Powers, would also ratify the Treaty. The fact that the first principal Allied and Associated Power out of the five that is mentioned in the Treaty, namely, the United States, did not ratify the Treaty after the signature of its representative had been placed to it, I suggest, entirely alters the situation. It weakens the whole idea of the League of Nations and alters the whole attitude of the world to the Peace Treaty, because the first twenty-six Articles of that Treaty are connected with the League of Nations and certain duties and powers are placed on the Mandatory Powers.

As far as we have seen in the progress of affairs since the Peace, these mandatory powers, instead of tending towards peace in the world, have really been in the nature of apples of discord. The United States are already ocmplaining about Mesopotamia, and they have done so for a long time. I do not think it is understood sufficiently in this country that there is a very severe propaganda directed against this country on the question of Mesopotamia. Every body in this country believes that when our representatives agreed to allow all these great territories, which were conquered at enormous expense of life and treasure by the people of this country, to be given up to the League of Nations for the League practically to adjudicate upon them, we were doing the most unselfish thing that any country had done after a great war. It was the biggest sacrifice that any nation could have made. In every war that preceded the last War, no nation which has conquered vast territory at enormous cost has ever given it up to other nations to adjudicate upon it. We did that. Why? Because as a nation we believed that informing this League we were about to move a great step forward—

Royal Assent

Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.

The House went, and, having returned,

Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to—

1. Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Act, 1921.

2. Children Act, 1921.

3. German Reparation (Recovery) Act, 1921.

4. Coal Mines (Decontrol) Act, 1921.

5. Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921.

6. Ministries of Munitions and Shipping (Cessation) Act, 1921.

Easter Recess (Adjournment)

Question again proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."

( resuming ): I was saying that the only reason why this country agreed to give up all these great territories to the adjudication and really into the power of other nations was because they thought that in forming a League of Nations they were really helping forward and starting a new system by which peace could be maintained in the world and as regards Mesopotamia certainly the people of this country are under the impression that not only have they made great sacrifices in the War to capture Mesopotamia, but that also during the peace we have done everything possible to carry out everything that we agreed to carry out by the Peace Treaty, and that we have also not shown the slightest design or desire to maintain a dog-in-the manger policy or prevent other nations from sharing in the trade of that country. On the contrary, we have done everything we can to reassure America in that respect. There is, of course, another mandatory whose territory is also a matter of dispute with the United States, and that is the island of Yap, for which the Japanese have a mandate. There is, as well, of course, although the question does not come in so far as the League of Nations is concerned, but is very much affected by the Peace Treaty, the question of the disposal of the cables, about which the United States are at loggerheads with the Allied Powers. I think all this shows that, before we accept any mandates whatever, we absolutely must insist in this House that we have an opportunity of seeing what the mandates are, and of examining them very carefully in Debate in this House before they are presented to the League of Nations at all; and, secondly, that if the League of Nations Council do carry out any alterations of those mandatory drafts, then those mandates shall again come before this House, and this House shall again have the opportunity of discussing the alterations, and deciding whether, under the circumstances, we will accept the mandate as it comes from the League of Nations Council, or whether we will re-submit it again with suggested alterations. But that was not the view of His Majesty's Government only last month, because on the 16th February, in answer to a question, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Glasgow (Mr. Bonar Law) said:

"My understanding of the terms of the Treaty is that the mandates shall first be considered by the League of Nations before being made public."

Then, in answer to a further question as to whether the mandate ought not to be discussed by the House, he said:

"It must be obvious to the House that if in every case of this kind there is first to be a discussion in all the Parliaments, it would be impossible to carry through the business at all."

He qualified that to a certain extent by saying:

"I have already said to my hon. Friend that I will make myself familiar with the terms of the Treaty, and will look into it again and see if it is possible to publish the mandate."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th February, 1921; col. 98; Vol. 138.]

At any rate, as the spokesman of the Government, he suggested that we ought not to see the mandate before it goes to the League of Nations, and, secondly, even after it has been there, we ought not to have a discussion on it, as it would be impossible to carry on the League of Nations if every Parliament were to discuss these matters. I think neither this House nor the country will be content to accept that view. In the case of all these great territories, Mesopotamia and the late German colonies in Africa, we are dealing with enormous countries, upon which we are spending enormous sums of money every year, and which may entail very heavy expenditure in the future. Surely people then, in this country, will insist, even if the Government do not give way on that subject in this Debate, that this House shall have the opportunity of deciding whether we can accept the mandate for these places or not. Then, again, I would suggest that, as well as seeing these mandates, we should also alter the provisions, if possible, of the 8th paragraph of Article 22, which says:

"The degree of authority, control, or administration to be exercised by the Mandatory shall, if not previously agreed upon by the Members of the League, be explicitly defined in each case by the Council."

Under Article 26, we may propose Amendments to the Covenant, and I suggest that an Amendment should be proposed to the Covenant by our Government, to alter the paragraph I have read so that it will be we, the people who have to exercise the Mandate, who will explicitly define what we intend to do, that we shall then present it to the League of Nations Council, so that they may criticise it, and we shall be the people who shall alter the terms. In other words, the power shall be with us, and merely the criticising power with the League of Nations, instead of making the League of Nations Council, as at present, the people who are to define how the thing is to be carried out. I think an Amendment on those lines would safeguard the interests of this nation to a greater extent than they are at present safeguarded, and I think it very necessary, in view of the fact that the United States are not members of the League of Nations, and therefore we shall have to carry out separate negotiations with them in all those cases. Another point is that I think we ought to approach the United States, and have a conference with them, and find out, as regards all mandatory territories we are taking over, what their points of objection are, and, after we have got our mandates, see if we cannot alter them so as to meet their view, and thereby ensure the permanency, at any rate for several years to come, of the Mandate. If we are going to have quarrels with the United States over matters like Mesopotamia, it seems to me we have made needless sacrifices in giving all these great territories away to the League of Nations. Whether the United States can be satisfied or not on that subject, I do not know, but I should think it would be quite easy to satisfy them, and I hope the hon. Gentleman, when he replies, will give us some assurance that steps are being taken to get the United States, if they will not, as they have clearly shown they will not, join the League of Nations, or join in the ratification of the Peace Treaty, at any rate to make separate arrangements with us, by which we may be assured that what we get under the Peace Treaty will also be acknowledged by them.

With a great deal of what has fallen from my hon. and gallant Friend I find myself in hearty agreement. The only point, so far as I know, on which I disagree with him is that I rather doubt whether his proposed Amendment to Article 22 is necessary, as I think I shall be able to show. I quite agree that under no circumstances would it be tolerable that this country should have imposed upon it by the League of Nations, or any other body, national obligations of this character without its consent. I hope the Government will really give serious attention to the terms of the Covenant. I am not at all sure it would not be a good thing to ask the Minister of Education to hold a little class of Members of the Government and just tell them what the Government does mean, because public statements on this point have been of the most astonishing character. I will take the Foreign Secretary. Last summer the Foreign Secretary made a speech on this question, and he then laid it down that it was not necessary to submit the terms of the Mandate to the League of Nations at all; that it was entirely a matter for the Allied Powers to settle exactly what they liked, and it was only the extraordinary good nature of the Government that the matter was submitted to the League of Nations at all. That, of course, was entirely and absolutely a wild misrepresentation of the obligations into which the Government had entered under the Covenant. Not only so, but when we got to Geneva, and were discussing these questions, the principal representative of the British Government showed most vehement reluctance to allow anything whatever to be known about the proposals which the Government had submitted to the Council of the League as their idea with regard to the mandates. Some of us pressed strongly that the matter ought to be discussed in public, and that it ought to be submitted, at any rate, to the Assembly in public. But that was resisted, and by no one more strongly than the principal representative of the British Government.

Finally, we had an extraordinary observation of the Foreign Secretary in the House of Lords the other day, much later than the observations my hon. Friend has quoted from the late Leader of the House, when he was speaking avowedly without having had an opportunity of refreshing his memory as to the matter. Four weeks after the Foreign Secretary made a speech in which he made a most extraordinary statement about the position of Parliament in regard to this matter After complaining that the mandates had somehow or other got out he said: them—the idea of conquest should be wiped out and that for the future the conception should be, that whoever took over such territories should take them over as a trust on behalf of the inhabitants of the territory and for the benefit of the other peoples of the world, as well of course their own. That was the conception. That must be the consideration which was to be offered to the mandatories and accepted by them, and not to be imposed on any country. It is an entire delusion to suppose the League or anything in the covenant supports the view that the League has power to impose any such obligation on this country or any other country. What has happened in this case has been nothing in the least like it, and my hon. Friend was perfectly right.

What has happened is this: the Government have told us that after consultation with their Allies—which may have been a very proper thing to do— I do not myself see why particularly it was done—but I do not quarrel with it—they made certain proposals which they presented to the League. That is all that has been done so far. The Council of the League has expressed no opinion upon these proposals except the propositions with regard to mandates in South Africa and the Pacific. They have accepted the drafts of them without alteration—without serious alteration, at any rate. Those documents are now before the League. There is no reason m the world why the British Government—and it is the British Government, remember, that is represented on the Council of the League, and not an individual person— why the British Government should not at any moment vary or amend their propositions as they are before the Council. Undoubtedly! My hon. Friend is perfectly right, and everybody knows it.

The obligation to administer or to assist in the administration of these countries may impose a considerable burden upon us. That is very possible, I think probable, in some ways. But I think that is a matter on which Parliament certainly should be consulted. Why not? Before the obligation is assumed, they ought to be consulted. They ought, in the interests of the honour of this country, to be satisfied that the Government are properly carry- ing out their duties in presenting this draft to the Council. They ought to be consulted at every stage, and, not only so, they ought to be consulted later, because, though it is quite true that the acceptance of the mandate imposes moral obligations rather than material obligations—that is to say, there are no means in this case, nor in any other case practically, of enforcement of obligations assumed under the Covenant, except by public opinion and publicity—yet they are very important moral obligations. You have accepted the duty to administer on behalf of the League of Nations. Under conditions set up in Article 22 of the Treaty it is evident that you are accepting serious moral obligations.

It is very important that these obligations should be accepted by the country with a full knowledge of what they are. Not only so, not only ought they to be submitted to the House of Commons and the public before they have been formally proposed to the Council, but after they have been before the Council and have been accepted or amended. The Council is entitled to say, "We do not think this complies with the Treaty"—that is their main function—" we think you ought to put in a further provision to comply with the Treaty." Then this ought to come back to Parliament before the thing is finally accepted by the Government of this country and be again examined and approved by it I cannot tell hon. Members how regretful it seems to me that the Government do not appear to realise that the whole conception of the League depends upon publicity. Unless they are prepared to publish everything, to take the public into their confidence, to get public opinion behind them at every stage, then the great experiment cannot succeed. Publicity is the very life-blood of the League.

I have observed that certain hon. Members who conscientiously oppose the policy of the League seem to think that the friends of the League would object to consultation with Parliament in this matter. On the contrary, we welcome it. We desire in every way to treat this matter with complete openness. I regret very much the attitude of my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council at the Geneva Assembly in resisting publicity of that kind. I said so then to him, and I do not mind saying so now to the House. I regret very much that the Government have not yet laid upon the Table of the House the East Africa and other African drafts which they have submitted. France has been consulted. The Council of the League has been consulted. The only one not consulted is the British Parliament. There is no reason why we should not see these drafts. And not only so, but I welcome very much the promise of the late Leader of the House that he will do his best to present to us the drafts which the French Government has submitted to the League—I do not know whether they have submitted any African mandates, but there are the Syrian and the Lebanon mandates—and there is no reason why they should not be presented to this House also. Although, of course, it is no concern of ours what terms the French Government are prepared to accept as mandatories of various districts, undoubtedly one mandate does to some extent form the precedent for another and therefore it is of interest to all Members of the League to know what are the terms to be included in any mandate which it is proposed to be granted.

It is very important that these mandates should be examined in detail by the House before they are submitted to the Council. The Council is not, I understand, going to sit till June, and therefore we have two months before us, and I hope the Government will accede to a proposal which I shall put to them after the Easter holidays, that a Select Committee of this House should be appointed, to which these mandates could be referred, so that they may be fully and properly examined and we shall have the Report of the Committee and know exactly what has been done, and what they mean, and where we are going. The hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) says he has reason to believe, from information which has been published in the Press, that the provisions in the African mandate with respect to such vital matters as slavery and the liquor traffic are very unsatisfactory. I confess that I am not quite satisfied with the provisions with regard to the employment of troops and concessions in the Palestine and Mesopotamian mandates. I think both of these matters might well be considered by a Select Committee, to see whether they really are proper provisions to insert in a mandate. After these mandates have been examined and ap- proved by the House, and have one back to the Council, they can be again considered by us if any changes have been made in them, so that we shall know before any final ratification takes place exactly what we are going to agree to. And it does not stop there. I very much want, if I can, to remove the idea that the League, as at present constituted, can ever be what is called a super-State. It is very important that we should get that out of our minds. It is a voluntary arrangement, right from beginning to end, with the possible exception of Article 16— which does not arise here—and if after having accepted a mandate on agreed terms the mandatory should at any time think that the terms were impossible of being carried out, or inadvisable, there is nothing to prevent the mandatory from withdrawing from the mandate, and asking the Council to find some other mandatory to administer the territories. There is nothing compulsory about it from beginning to end, and my hon. Friend was perfectly right in saying that the function of the Mandates Commission is merely to draw attention to the Treaty obligations contained in these Clauses in the Treaty of Versailles, and to draw attention to any failure by the mandatory to carry out their Treaty obligations, or to any great scandal in the administration of the territory under a mandate, so that the public may know what is going on. That is the whole thing. There is nothing else that the Mandatory Commission can do. It is very important work, and work that ought to be begun as soon as possible, and I was glad to hear the suggestion that there should be submitted to them a statement of how these territories have been administered up till now from the time when they became subject in principle to the mandatory system.

I should like now to say a few words about the Palestine and the Mesopotamia Mandates. At the time of the Conference in Paris I think there was complete misapprehension as to what was the real nature of the Palestine Mandate. I never regarded it as anything but an onerous duty that we were undertaking, for the protection of the world. It is going to be an extremely difficult thing. I do not want to go into the mandate, but we have got the Zionist policy of the Government, of which I am a hearty supporter, which is to offer to the Jewish community a national home in Palestine. They are, and must be for many years, a very small minority of the population. The rest of the population are Arabs, and though I hope the two will get on very well together, they are not of the same race nor the same religion, and it will require very careful, tactful, and impartial administration to see that no difficulties occur between the two races. It is going to be a very delicate job, and it is not made easier by the fact that the Arabs feel that they have not been treated quite fairly by this country with reference to the northern part of what they hoped, on fairly good grounds, was going to be their territory. I think that largely explains their reluctance to accept the mandatory system. They do not quite know what it means. They do not quite understand that, at any rate, as far as they are concerned, our object must be, both as a matter of principle and as a matter of interest, to enable them at the earliest possible moment to stand by themselves. Undoubtedly our position in the Middle East is very difficult. We are a great Moslem power. We have been forced by this War to deal with three great Moslem powers—Turkey, Persia, and the Arabian countries.

I do not want to complicate matters, but I take those three countries. We took a very severe line in regard to Turkey. It was very important, taking that kind of line that we had to take in regard to one great Moslem Power, that we should not offend the susceptibilities, or injure, or quarrel with the other two great Moslem Powers. I cannot say that I think the Government have steered very successfully through that difficult bit of country. They have contrived, necessarily of course, to quarrel with Turkey, but we have also contrived to quarrel with Persia and to quarrel, or at any rate to come rather near quarrelling, with the Arabian countries also. That makes it all the more important that we should realise what our administration in Palestine is going to be. It is going to be a very difficult and delicate job. I think we did right to accept it. We could not have done otherwise. I do not think there was any other country that could possibly have done it except ourselves. We had gone into the country, we had conquered it, we had overrun it, and that imposed on us the obligations to see that it did not fall into anarchy and chaos. But it is a difficult job, and what we have got to see is that we administer it in such a way as will conduce to the good of the people of the world, and will be just to the two races which inhabit that country. I understand that the mandates have not yet been ratified, but that we have already entered into agreement with France with regard to it. I would ask the hon. Member who is going to reply for the Government with reference to Article 6 of that Agreement, which says: "It is expressly stipulated that the facilities accorded to the British Government by the preceding articles imply the maintenance for the benefit of France of the provisions of the Franco-British Agreement of San Remo regarding oil." I should like to know exactly what that means, and I would point out that we have not yet been shown what are the provisions of the San Remo Agreement with regard to oil. We have been told a good deal about the primary Agreement, but the provisions should be presented to Parliament. It is evident with regard to Palestine that there must be considerable differences in the form of the Mandate from that which prevails with regard to Mesopotamia, and I do not quarrel with the fact that the terms of the Mandate assume much greater powers of administration, but the object is the same, and no reasonable person in this country has any desire to increase the obligations and responsibilities of the Empire more than is absolutely necessary. Therefore our object in both administrations is to enable the countries to stand by themselves at the earliest possible moment. The Government in Mesopotamia, as has already been pointed out, are bound absolutely up to the hilt by the statements made when we first occupied Bagdad and by two other statements to set up a really independent Arab State with only such assistance as is necessary to enable them to administer the country.

May I ask the Noble Lord whether he is aware that the motor industry in this country depends upon an unlimited supply of cheap liquid fuel, namely, oil, and that America at present controls 85 per cent. of the world's out put of oil?

I am quite aware of that, but I do not see that it really affects my observations, unless my hon. Friend means that we should annex the oil districts and administer them.

My hon. Friend says "not necessarily," but I suppose he means that we should obtain an exclusive right to their enjoyment. I do not think that is a desirable policy to put before this country and still less before the world, in view of the statement and obligations upon which we have entered into this mandate. In my judgment, both as a matter of principle and still more as a matter of economy, we have got to carry out this policy to enable these countries to stand by themselves as soon as they can. I am not sure whether such a policy as has been indicated by my hon. Friend below the Gangway (Mr. Jesson), to judge by the declarations in "The Times" this morning, was not the impression conveyed to Mr. Lansing of the objects and policy of the British delegates to Paris. Any idea that we are out to grab as much of the world surface as we can for our own purposes is not only disastrous in reference to these matters, but would undermine the very foundations upon which our Empire rests.

Does the Noble Lord suggest that there is anything immoral in our trading our manufactured goods in exchange for oil in Mesopotamia?

It is very important that a good Government should be established in Mesopotamia and the other districts, so as to develop their resources to the utmost. That is the whole object of the mandate system.

I am very glad to hear it; it shows at any rate that we have done some good.

I now pass to the question of Persia, because all these hang together. In my judgment anything more unfortunate than our Persian policy it is impossible to conceive. We entered into an agreement with Persia—quite unnecessarily in my judgment—under circumstances which filled a number of people in the world with the greatest dismay. It is well known that no single act of ours did us more harm in America than the conclusion of the Persian Agreement under the circumstances in which it was made. The motive, I suppose, was the old motive that Persia was on the route to India, in just the same way as some people talk of Palestine being on the route to Egypt. Such suggestions are continually being applied on the ground that we are on the route to somewhere. The real truth is that in the matter of material interest we have little or no interest in Persia at all. The trading interest is very small. The sooner we get out of all obligations with regard to Persia, the better in every way will it be for us, and in my judgment the better it will be for Persia. The result of our policy in Persia has been that we have, since the agreement, been put to very considerable expense. We have offended a number of other countries, we have created a revolution in Persia, and finally the agreement will have to be abandoned. I do not think there is any other chapter in our diplomatic history that is so little satisfactory.

Before I sit down I desire to say one word on Armenia. I cannot think we have done very much better in Armenia than we have done in Persia or any other country in the Middle East. During the War we and our Allies entered generally and severally into obligations to the Armenian people. We entered into obligations that we would do our best to assist the independence of Armenia, and undoubtedly that will include not only the district of Erivan, but also Cilicia. There is no doubt that is a fact. We held out the strongest hope to Armenia that we would do all we could in this respect. So far we have done extremely little. We have spent not even one-tenth of the money that we have spent and wasted in Southern Russia in assisting the Armenian State and in making it a reality and a credit to us. Now we have got new proposals. We have not been given any official information, but again, by the enterprise of the daily Press, we have been enabled to know—at least I believe we have been enabled to know, my hon. Friend will no doubt tell me— what are the proposals which have been made to the French and the Turks and the Greeks with regard to the modification of the Treaty of Sévres. With regard to Armenia, I am not sure that I think the proposal a very satisfactory one, which is that the territory of Armenia and the Erivan territory should be defined anew by the League of Nations. I am not one of those who wish to shirk the duties put upon the League of Nations, but I must say I think it very undesirable to put duties of that kind on the League of Nations if it is to imply, as I think it would imply, some duty on the part of the League to protect a territory which they would have to define. Before you do that yon must provide the League of Nations with some force, and I do not think it is the proper function of the League of Nations to set up as the military protectors of new States. I do not therefore feel very happy about that proposal, but I feel still less happy about the want of any proposal, as far as I know, with regard to Cilicia. I do ask the Government to let us know where we stand. We are given vague assurances that it will be ail right, but I do not know what is being done for the protection of the populations of Cilicia. It will be a matter of the most profound humiliation to this country if, in the course of next month further massacres take place in that country after all that we have said. I admit that my anxiety is very considerable in this matter. I have heard rumours of negotiations still proceeding with certain Turks in this city, and I shall be glad to be assured by the Under-Secretary that no such negotiations are now proceeding and that there is no truth in the rumours that persons of a very undesirable character are negotiating with His Majesty's Government on that point.

No. As to Turkey, I suppose some day or other we shall be given an opportunity of discussing what the proposals of the Government are. I never was a great admirer of the Treaty of Sevres, but I do venture to take this opportunity of entering a strong protest against the doctrine that the Treaty of Sevres was a treaty made for Venizelos. The provisions made in the Treaty of Sevres ought to have been those which this country and our Allies thought just and right and stable for the populations concerned. They ought to have considered, and I hope they did consider, the whole local circumstances of the case. They ought to have made inquiries into what was the nature of the populations concerned, and they ought to have arrived, after all that, at certain conclusions on the policy to be pursued and to have carried it out. I cannot believe that they made those provisions merely to earn the gratitude of M. Venizelos. Much as I admire that statesman, greatly as I desire to do anything that I can to serve him personally, I am sure he will be the first to repudiate any such doctrine that he was not negotiating on behalf of his country. He wanted nothing granted for himself, but wanted whatever was granted and agreed upon to be granted and agreed upon on behalf of his country. Having made your treaty, I confess myself grave doubts as to the wisdom of now tearing it up. It may have been, and probably was, an unwise Treaty in some respects, but its provisions should be dealt with in another way than by tearing it up. In particular I do wish to say to my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench that I hope they are not going to make any far-reaching change in the provision with regard to Constantinople. There are other provisions which are of themselves perhaps undesirable, though I do not think this is a proper way to deal with them, but I think it would be simply a disastrous thing if we were to reinstal the Turks in Constantinople in a position to carry on their old system of intrigue, of setting Power against Power in return for political advantages and concessions which they may be able to obtain. Constantinople and all that Constantinople means has been the curse of Europe for many a long year. We had the opportunity, and we ought to have taken the opportunity, and I hope we have taken the opportunity, of putting an end to that system once for all. I confess I do not understand this tenderness for the Turk. We are fierce enough when we are dealing with the Germans. Why we should say that the Turks are entitled to more consideration than the Germans passes my comprehension. The Turks entered the War with far less excuse than the Germans. They entered the War perfectly voluntarily, without the slightest reason, in my judgment. They entered the quarrel merely because German intrigue persuaded the Committee of Union and Progress it would pay them better to fight on behalf of the Germans rather than on behalf of the Allies.

There may have been German money too. But having entered the War they prosecuted it with a brutality and cruelty that has never been exceeded—I do not think to our troops, but to the Armenians and Greeks and Syrians. They did their very best to slaughter and exterminate the whole race. That we should show special and peculiar favour to them, when we are advertising our firmness with regard to the Germans, seems to me to be a grave defect of justice and an even greater defect of policy.

4.0 P.M.

My right hon. Friend will forgive me if I leave it to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to follow him with regard to the issues of foreign policy which he has raised in the latter part of his speech. With regard to the earlier part, I find myself in very considerable agreement with what fell from him, and also from my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore), in his opening sentences, namely; that the whole of this business of the League of Nations and the mandates is clouded with a misconception which appears to recur continuously, however much one tries to get rid of it, namely, that the League of Nations is in some sort of sense a super-State which can order us to do things we do not want to do and impose upon us conditions as to mandates which we do not approve. That is an entire misconception. I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend (Lord Robert Cecil) on that point, and I think, to speak frankly, that for that misconception the actual language of the Covenant, to some extent, is responsible. I think it was a great pity that the term "League of Nations" was ever used. It would have been much clearer to have spoken of it as the Permanent International Conference—something to make it clear that all that was aimed at was a better way than the old diplomacy of getting nations to preserve peace and to administer the territories entrusted to their charge in the interests of the subject peoples and of humanity rather than in their own narrow, selfish, and exclusive interests.

Something of the same degree of misconception also applies to the whole idea of mandates and mandatory obligations. There is nothing new and revolutionary in the idea. My right hon. Friend knows very well that the whole of that conception was introduced into the Covenant in order to translate into the current acceptance of the world and make public the principles which we have gradually come to apply in the whole of our administration of subject and semi-subject races. We have always regarded it not only as economical but in principle desirable to give the greatest measure of free self-government to any people over whom we have had any kind of control. We have shown it not only in regard to Dominions peopled by our own race; we have shown it in regard to native States in India where in instance after instance we have arranged that territories which we had occupied should be administered by an entirely independent Government. We are showing it at the present moment with regard to Egypt. There is nothing as regards principle which is new to us in the A Mandates. I am quite ready to answer the question raised by my hon. Friend (Mr. Ormsby-Gore). The last thing we are thinking of is converting Mesopotamia into an administrative colony. We want to set up a form of Government which shall, as far as possible, become increasingly the government of the people of Mesopotamia themselves, they taking from us only as much advice and guidance as they actually need. The more completely they can stand on their own feet the better pleased we shall be.

The same applies equally when we are dealing with B Mandates. There is nothing in the conditions laid down in those mandates which necessitates any departure from the system of administration already in force in the British Colonies and Protectorates in Africa. There is no essential departure from international agreements by which we and the other Powers have been bound for the best part of the last 40 years, with regard to the greater part of Africa. There is nothing that goes beyond, or even as far as, the provisions under which we are obligated in East Africa and West Africa by the Berlin and Brussels Acts. Freedom of trade under the Berlin and Brussels Acts had to be given to all nations. Under the mandates we need extend it only to those nations which are members of the League of Nations, and as far as the Covenant is concerned, we should be at liberty to exclude the United States from trade with Tanganyika, though, of course, nothing is further from our thoughts. We are not embarking in this mandatory business on any new revolutionary system which is going to hamper our administration. We are only carrying out principles which are embodied in Article 22 of the Covenant of the Treaty of Versailles. The framing of the actual mandates is simply a question of setting out rather more fully, and a little more in detail, the principles laid down. There is no question of the League of Nation imposing on us conditions involving great expenditure and heavy liabilities. I should like to refer to the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) and, to some extent, by my right hon. Friend opposite, that, in the drafts which have casually been made public, we have to some extent violated, or not given complete and fully satisfactory interpretation to, the Article. Take the case of slavery—a very important subject. In that draft—which, I may say in passing, corresponds, as far as I know, pretty accurately with the stage at which the discussion of the draft was a few weeks ago—in that draft there is a clear and absolute forbidding of the slave trade in any shape or form.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman speaks of the discussion as far as it had gone a few weeks ago. Has not the East African Mandate been presented to the Council of the League?

It is before the Secretariat, but it has not been before the Council of the League yet. There are still points under discussion. With regard to slavery, the aim is to get rid of it as quickly as can be. The case is perfectly simple, and well known to anyone who has had to deal with the question of slavery in any of our Protectorates, and more particularly those where Mohammedan law applies. There you have, apart from the slave trade, the institution of domestic slavery. The whole family life is based upon it, and, wherever we have abolished the slave trade, we have never attempted drastically and without giving time for readjustment to abolish domestic slavery altogether. The consequence of that would be to throw large numbers, mainly women, mainly secondary wives, on the streets, and make them, to all intents and purposes, prostitutes. We have always laid down that all people born after a certain date shall in any case be free, and we have made provision to encourage liberation of slaves and to get rid of any remnants of slavery in the shortest time possible. Even Germany laid it down that anyone born after the year 1905 should be free, and, at any rate, we shall not lag behind the Germans in getting rid of the last remnants of domestic slavery in that country.

Then my hon. Friend asked, with regard to liquor, why it is that, while in the Samoa and South-West African mandates there is prohibition of the sale of liquor, the "B" mandates deal with control and not with complete prohibition? I can give a reason for that which appears to me to be satisfactory. When you are dealing with the Pacific Islands and the aborigines of South-West Africa, you are dealing with a very primitive type of native. The Australian Commonwealth and the Union of South Africa have each set up a standard of absolute prohibition of the sale of liquor to their natives. When you are dealing with "B" mandates you have to face a somewhat different position. If my hon. Friend (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) went, for instance, to Lagos, he would probably meet, at the club or elsewhere, lawyers, doctors and other men of culture and refinement, but of native birth. He might even wish to exercise his hospitable instincts towards them. Would he wish it to be laid down by mandate from the League of Nations that, while he might order one form of refreshment for himself, he would only be allowed to offer a glass of ginger ale to a native gentleman? What we are aiming at there is effective control rather than complete prohibition. In answer to the suggestion which he made, that for the sake of revenue we are encouraging the liquor traffic in Tanganyika, I may mention that in Tanganyika, in spite of the wider powers under the Mandate, we do enforce prohibition of the sale of liquor to natives, and that would be carried out whatever the terms of the Mandate. There is nothing to prevent our going further than the Mandate. It was pointed out in Parliament a little time ago that the Australian Commonwealth went further in regard to the question of forced labour. The great thing in framing a mandate is to get at some agreement with the other Governments concerned on the actual terms on which we are to carry out Article 22.

My right hon. Friend and several hon. Members have raised the point of the authority of Parliament. It seems to me that we are dealing here not with the introduction of some new principle for which Parliamentary authority would naturally and rightly be asked and must be asked. We are dealing with an integral part of the Treaty of Versailles. That Treaty was accepted in this House— I looked through the Debate again only this morning—and not a single Member got up to cavil or criticise the provisions of the Article in question. My hon. Friend suggested that what is happening is that each power invents its own mandate and puts it before the League of Nations. That is not the process at all. The process has been one of continual evolution from the text of Article 22. In January, 1919, the first tentative drafts for mandates were being sketched by a little Committee which included my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend behind me (Mr. Ormsby-Gore). Subsequently a Commission met in London under Lord Milner's chairmanship in which each of the Great Powers was represented, and where, by the common effort and joint contribution of each of the great nations, the main outlines of the mandates were framed in consultation.

I agree that only B and C mandates were drafted. But generally speaking, the process of all the mandates has been one of evolution from Clause 22 of the Covenant by negotiation, and all through it is a question of negotiation. This House has always the final say in every matter, and above all in any matter that involves expenditure or legislation. But it is quite impossible for Parliament to conduct the process of negotiation which deals with the wording of details and with what is after all only the amplification of something that has already been accepted by this House.

We are dealing here with matters of negotiation, carrying out something which in its main principles has been accepted in this House and which again comes back to the House when negotiations are complete. The negotiations are being carried on all the time. Hon. Members have referred to the delay in these negotiations. The whole process of international co-operation at which the League of Nations aims undoubtedly involves delays. It is worth it, but it does involve delays. At certain stages of the proceedings the American Government raised points and asked for delay for their consideration. All these matters on which you want to get agreement among a large number of nations take a long time, but it would take an absolutely impossible time if the actual detailed negotiations, which do not raise any great point of principle, had to be thrashed out on the floor of Parliament, not only in this country, but in Brazil and Albania and every other country which is a member of the League of Nations.

Then it was suggested that we are foregoing our conquests and being saddled instead by the League of Nations with the incalculable expenses involved in the mandates. The terms of the mandates as such do not involve any expense. Refraining from the slave trade costs us nothing. Refraining from abuse of the liquor traffic costs us nothing. As regards Free Trade I have never been as convinced a Free Trader as the right hon. Gentleman on whose behalf I am speaking to-day. Still I am quite prepared to admit that the greater part of our colonies in Africa and in other parts of the world have flourished very fairly under a régime of Free Trade, and I do not see why the obligation to maintain Free Trade with the rest of the world in any of our mandatory territories should be a serious handicap upon us, or why it should prevent us from having a large and beneficial trade with those countries. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend (Mr. Jesson) that whatever form the Government of Mesopotamia or the Government of Tanganyika may take, or however much we give free admission to the trade of other countries, we shall undoubtedly reap large benefits —not the benefits sought by selfishness, but the natural benefits that flow from trade. It is a false dilemma to suggest that in this mandatory business we are either foolish, sentimental humanitarians, who are taking up unnecessarily a task involving us in heavy and ruinous expenditure, or else selfish rogues who wish to annex territory in order to exploit it. I believe that in the fulfilment of our policy in the spirit as well as the letter, we shall reap advantages in the long run that are quite worth the having. My right hon. Friend (Lord R. Cecil) asked me a question in regard to the Palestine mandate. He asked why we withheld the San Remo Agreement, and why we should not make it public. The San Remo Agreement was contained in Command Paper 675, which was published some time ago. It was not called the San Remo Agreement, although I see the word San Remo appears at the end.

So also in regard to publishing the reports of our administration which was mentioned by my hon. Friend (Mr. Ormsby-Gore). I believe that a very bulky report on the earlier part of our administration in Mesopotamia has already been published.

A very full report in regard to the administration of Tanganyika has already reached the Colonial Office, and will be published.

Certainly. We are not afraid of submitting to the League or to other nations the whole of our administration, not only in the mandatory territories, but anywhere else. I entirely agree that the more publicity we have in that sense the better. There is one last point following upon the remarks of my hon. Friend (Colonel Archer-Shee) who suggested that, in consequence of the mandates, we are going to be involved in great and heavy expenditure in Palestine and Mesopotamia. It is not in consequence of the mandates that we are involved in that expense, but in consequence of the whole situation created by the War. It is in consequence of our victories. Victories have their responsibilities as well as their fruits. These victories themselves involved a terrible cost. If we had been prepared in 1917 to leave the Arab countries under the yoke of the Turk we could have had peace with the Turk then, and have saved hundreds if not thousands of millions and thousands of lives; but we felt it to be our duty to liberate those territories, and having liberated them, we were faced with responsibilities which we found in Paris others were not prepared to take off our shoulders. I agree that the task with which we are confronted in Palestine will call for all the statesmanship and all the constructive ability of our people. The same is true of Mesopotamia. We cannot to-day, any more than in our past history, shirk our responsibilities. What we have to do is to see to it that the cost of those responsibilities does not crush us. The actual military administration was undoubtedly a matter of great expense—so also the administration during the period of transition and during the second war which suddenly sprang up owing to the general unsettlement of last year.

But the moment we set up a form of government which we believe to be the right one for the country, a form under which the people of the country would have the major say, the civil and military expenditure will show a substantial increase. My right hon. Friend the Secretary for the Colonies was determined to get to the heart of the facts and he has gone out for that purpose. From the telegrams which have already been received from him I believe that I can assure the House that his policy, which he will no doubt lay before the House when he comes back, will secure not only a very large measure indeed of constitutional result, but also a drastic and sweeping reduction of expenditure. That I do not think I could go into at the moment. I have only got a rough outline in the telegrams. But he will come back, I believe, bringing his sheaves with him and will satisfy every section of the House, those who are anxious for economy and those who want to see our obligations under the Treaty of Versailles and towards the League of Nations carried out in the spirit as well as in the letter.

Is it quite understood that the Tanganyika Agreement will be presented as was promised?

With reference to the question of submitting the mandates to the countries which are going to take over the mandates, are the French Government going to submit their mandate to the Chambre de Députés ?

I must have notice of the question as regards the French Government, but certainly any pledge given in this House on behalf of the Government will be honoured.

Foreign Affairs

I may trespass for a few minutes to raise the question of our foreign policy in Eastern Europe and to appeal to the Government to continue the step which they took a few days ago to try to make peace with Russia. I know that they were attacked for signing the Trade Agreement with Russia and that it was hinted that no decent people would come to any arrangement with the present Government of that country, but the Prime Minister, with his great dialectical skill, convinced the House first that Lenin was a most respectable person, and, secondly, that if there was any fault it was the fault of the Labour party in this House—a most astonishing answer to an attack from his own party, but an answer given with such skill that it satisfied apparently the members of his own party. It had absolutely nothing to do with the criticisms that have been made, but if you can raise any stick against the Labour party it is all that is evidently required, and the high standard of intelligence of many members of the Coalition can be quite satisfied by an attack on the Labour party, and if you add to that the name of Karl Marx, whose works are said not to have been read by any person living, certainly not by myself, for I know very little about them and I question whether the Prime Minister knows much more, that is quite sufficient for the House. It will swallow everything that is then put to it. Now that Lenin has become a respectable person, and has received the hall-mark of the Prime Minister—[HON. MEMBERS: "The coupon!"]—yes, I believe he has the coupon, because he is said to have given up some of his tenets, and one hon. Member has referred to him as a member of the Middle Class Union—I suggest that now he has become a respectable person, we might go further and sign a Treaty of Peace with him.

I know that is given for very distinguished services. The question of peace with Russia is a very important one, not only for the future of Europe, but for the future of the East, of which we have been speaking I would ask right hon. and hon. Members carefully to read the letter that was presented by the President of the Board of Trade when this trade agreement was signed. Undoubtedly, if Russia is cut away from the rest of the civilised world she is a danger spot, and in no place on the globe quite the same danger as she is in the East. I hold that the theories which have called forth the most violent opposition in this country cannot live, and will not live if you open thoroughly Russia's ports. I am satisfied that the fact that the present Government of Russia has been able to call on the patriotic feeling of all Russians on the ground that they were being attacked, has maintained the worst features of the Soviet Republic. There were many persons who had tried to make a study of Russian conditions, and knew something of the history of the men who were at the head of affairs in Russia. They thought, and they are certain now, that these men when they found the necessity arise would qualify their policy. I am not much concerned with the individuals who happen to be at the head of the Government, but I am concerned with the people of Russia, and I believe that a plain and open declaration in the broad light of day that the British Government is prepared to sign peace with Russia on reasonable terms would tend to make that people our friends, and would be irresistible against any attack that might be made in Russia itself.

I appeal to the Government to consider carefully, not only in the interests of Europe, but in the interests of our Empire in the East, whether it would not be not only good policy, but common-sense to carry the trading agreement further and definitely to make peace with Russia. How can Europe rehabilitate herself if Russia has not peace with the Allies? Not a small country of her borders feels itself safe. Lithuania, Esthonia and the rest of the small republics have the continual feeling that they might be attacked. Tiflis, the capital of Georgia, is being occupied at this moment by troops of the Bolshevik type. These things make it impossible for these small nations to go about their work in the ordinary way and to develop their industries so that we can have the flow of goods that is needed to make this country prosperous. What can Poland do? Does anyone assume that Poland will ever organise, herself and become the power she might be unless Russia is definitely settled and at peace? Poland does not know from one day to the next whether her future is in jeopardy or not, and I believe it is a sane policy to declare publicly not only that we will have a trading agreement with Russia, but that we are prepared on reasonable lines to sign a peace with her and to bring her within the family of the League of Nations. These things might be considered ideals, but at any rate they are not sowing the poison berries of which the Prime Minister after a dinner or a lunch speaks, and I am sure the lunch or the dinner must have been a good one, or the poison berries would never have appeared.

In regard to Germany, the Labour party finds itself in opposition to the methods pursued by the Government. As to the question of Germany paying for what she destroyed, there is no difference; the only difference arises in regard to the method. Is the method of the Government the best one, is it likely to bring the money, is it likely to bring peace to Europe, or is it likely to defer the payment of the money and to keep peace further away? Is there not one simple thing that the Allies might do with regard to Germany? There is a difference as to the statements of the amount paid by her already. The Allies insist that it is one sum, and Germany insists that it is quite different. Is there no possibility of arbitration under the League of Nations or of submitting these disputed things to the arbitration of neutrals? Is there no possibility, in fact, of letting experts come in, without the taint of a combatant Power, in order that a settlement may be arrived at as to what really has been paid? I suggest that the discussions that have been carried on in this House with regard to Germany's position certainly are not fair and almost verge sometimes on the dishonest. To speak of the German payments as if a mark to a Ger- man were only a penny is not to speak in terms of absolute truth, and it is as well that some impartial outside expert tribunal should be asked to decide the matter in dispute. Germany, I hope, will in the course of a short time meet her obligations and come into the League of Nations, and I think that just as we cannot have a League of Nations without Russia, neither can we have a League of Nations without Germany. If the mistake is repeated that the Germans made in 1871, we are inevitably in for a preparation for another big war in the centre of Europe. It is impossible for generation after generation to crush a nation of 60,000,000 people, and I hope the Government will take the generous view, in true accord with British traditions, not to jump on a defeated enemy, not to lower itself to the level that it thinks that enemy would have lowered itself to, but to act as a Britain, I am pleased to say, has almost always acted towards a defeated opponent, with firmness if need be, but with generosity and a desire for fair play. Again I would ask, in this question of the disputed payments, that arbitration should be resorted to in order that the sum may be properly fixed by neutral experts, and that the decision should be accepted.

With regard to the United States of America, I should like the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to tell the House, if he can, what is being done by the League of Nations to try to induce the United States to join that body. There may be secret negotiations being conducted—I do not know—and if there are, I hope they will be successful. But I believe that, as the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) said, the very breath of life to the League of Nations is absolute and unqualified publicity. Without that absolute and unqualified publicity, I doubt whether the League can ever be a success. Finally, may I say a word or two about India and the action of the Indian Government during the last few weeks? In the county of Lancashire and the adjacent counties is located the largest exporting trade in the country. The very future of England as a commercial nation is fixed to that trade, because of its extraordinary volume of exports, and the labour it employs in its own and subsidiary services. During the last few weeks the Indian Government has increased a definitely protec- tionist duty against that industry in Lancashire. Indian mills are making huge profits as it is. There is no need for protection in India because of an infant industry which needs building up. The industry is not an infant, and its profits are enormous, and yet the already existing protective duty has been increased, because, as the Indian Government said, it is necessary to have revenue, and this duty is the best means of raising that revenue. Lancashire suggests that if revenue be the consideration, a countervailing excise duty may be raised.

I know; I am coming to it. We know perfectly well that you cannot give Home Rule with one hand and take it back with another, but what we are entitled to ask is that friendly representations should be made to the Indian Government that this is an injustice to a trade which is suffering very severely, that it is to the interest of the industry of the country, and those friendly representations, we hope, would meet with success. In my own town of 25,000 inhabitants, there is certainly not more than one textile worker out of four fully employed. In the town of Burnley, six miles away, there are at least 75 per cent. of the weavers totally unemployed, and I doubt whether there is a single one of the other 25 per cent. in full-time employment. In these circumstances, the Indian Government makes the position still more difficult. I feel sure that friendly representations made to the Indian Government would have the result we hope for, and, while not trespassing on India's right to determine for herself what her duty shall be, we do think that between two friendly nations—for India is a nation—friendly representations may be made, and that they will lead to the advantage of both.

I am very unwilling to intervene at all times before Members interested in Foreign Office subjects have had their chance, but if I do not at this stage reply to some of the points which have been raised I may miss my opportunity. May I say in respect to the speech of the hon. Member who has just sat down (Mr. Shaw) that I entirely agree with him in his views as to the future course of events with regard to Russia. I myself have always been in favour of contracting a trade agreement, and I hope that that agreement will emerge in due course in a peace treaty, and that after not very prolonged delay.

The two principal topics directly affecting the Foreign Office that have been raised are those respecting Armenia and Persia. I say very little about Persia. I know very well what are the views of my noble Friend (Lord R. Cecil) in regard to recent policy in that country. Very often I agree with the noble Lord when, I suppose, official correctitude would impose disagreement on me. But I must say perfectly frankly, that I do not agree with him in this instance. It is true to say that the Persian Agreement has not achieved success. I myself believe, and have always believed, that if it could have been made effective it would have been to the very best interest of Persia and of this country, and it has often struck me—and I hope the noble Lord will not repudiate this idea—that there is something analogous in the Persian Agreement and the terms of a mandate. I must guard myself against the suggestion that Persia ever has been, or could be, in relation to us a mandated territory, but I cannot understand why the noble Lord and other ardent supporters of Clause 22 of the Covenant of the League should take such extraordinary exception to the terms of the Persian Agreement.

I regret myself very much indeed that there seems to be little prospect of that agreement, or the conditions of it, ever becoming effective now. When my Noble Friend says that we have only the slenderest political interest in Persia I need not remind him—it would be an impertinence on my part—that he is setting himself against the established views of all, I think I may say all, great Foreign Secretaries for the past 100 years. I myself am no friend of the policy of enlarging the frontiers of India. I do not think it is in the least necessary to carry the frontiers to the Caspian, the Black Sea, and eventually to the Mediterranean, as some extremists would desire to do. But I do not think it can be doubted that Persia is one of the most important countries in the Middle East, and that it should be stable, and that something in the nature of continuous and uncorrupt government is in the interests of the whole world, not merely in our interests, but of Persia itself. Let me refer now to the Turks. My noble Friend asked: "Why this tenderness for the Turks?" I thought one of the gravest charges, and one of the most serious, against the Treaty of Sévres was that it was so extreme in its treatment of the Turk and the Turkish Empire. There has been much criticism of some of the other Treaties, but my reading of the whole series leads me to think that in dealing with Turkey the Allied and Associated Powers have been more severe than in any of the other cases. My Noble Friend (Lord Robert Cecil) referred to a rumour that some conversations were taking place in London with certain undesirable Turkish elements. I have made such inquiry as was possible at so short notice, and so far I have not been able to get any information that such conversations are taking place, at least with the cognisance of the Government. But my Noble Friend has promised that he will give me such information on that subject as he himself has at his disposal.

Touching for a moment on the ever-vexed question of the Armenians, what we could have done in regard to the Armenians at Erivan more than has been done, little, I admit, as it has been, I do not know. I do not know whether my Noble Friend would have supported the policy of active and far-spread military operations to safeguard the Erivan Republic. Short of that, I do not know what he could have done. It does not seem to me to be always the business of this country to act as a knight errant in these cases. I am not, of course, going to be indiscreet enough to mention any other country, but I think we might expect that some other country less burdened with Empire than we, and less affected by the War, might take in hind a trust of this kind. I should have thought that the definite charge of the Armenians, both in Erivan and in Cilicia, might have been regarded as the highest of all possible trusts, about which there could be no suspicion; there Is nothing to be gained by it, there are no material advantages attaching to it, and I think we might have looked with some confidence to other people to take this matter in hand. As regards the Armenians in Cilicia, I greatly regret to say that I cannot give the House any more information than I conveyed in answer to questions asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Consett (Mr. A. Williams) and the Noble Lord (Lord Robert Cecil) the other day. They asked what had taken place in regard to Turkish Armenia and Cilicia. Perhaps I may read the answer to the House:

I must assume that it is only a matter of delay. My Noble Friend (Lord R. Cecil) will see that this question was asked as recently as 16th March, and that is all the information I have in regard to whatever provision the French Government may have made to safeguard the Armenians in Cilicia. At this hour, and in view of the small number of Members and of the anxiety of all to depart, I do not think I need add anything to the remarks I have made.

Notice taken that Forty Members were not present; House counted, and Forty Members not being present,

The House was adjourned at Three Minutes before Five of the Clock till Monday, 4th April, pursuant to the Resolution of the House of this day.