House of Commons
Tuesday, May 3, 1921
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
British Dye Stuffs Corporation (Railways Transfer) Bill.
Bill committed.
London County Council (Money) Bill,—(Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with,—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:
London County Council (Money) Bill.
Bill to be read a Second time.
Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
Preston Corporation Bill [ Lords ].
Bill to be read a Second time.
Private Bill Petitions [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:
Anglo-Continental Supply Company, Limited [ Lords ].
Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
Eastbourne Waterworks Bill [ Lords ],
Read a Second time, and committed.
Colne Corporation Bill (by Order),
Read the Third time, and passed.
Divorce Bills,
Mr. Morison, Mr. Bowerman, Mr. Brassey, Sir Henry Craik, Mr. Jodrell, Mr. Purchase, Mr. Rendall, Captain Watson, and Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Wills nominated Members of the Select Committee on Divorce Bills.—[ Lieut.-Colonel Gibbs. ]
Perth Corporation Provisional Order Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.
North British Railway Order Confirmation Bill,
Considered; to be read the Third time Tomorrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (Water) Bill,
"to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Minister of Health under the Gas and Water Facilities Act, 1870, relating to Blandford Water, Bournemouth Gas and Water, Brompton, Chatham, Gillingham, and Rochester Water, and Woodbridge District Water, "presented by Sir ALFRED MOND; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 91.]
DOUPE'S DIVORCE BILL [Lords]
Message to the Lords to request that their Lordships will be pleased to communicate to this House copies of the Minutes of Evidence and Proceedings, together with the Documents deposited, in the case of Doupe's Divorce Bill [ Lords ].—[ Mr. Morison. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
India
Disorders (Convictions)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether any and, if so, how many political prisoners are now in gaol in India or the Andamans as a result of the Bengal troubles of 1915, or the Punjab troubles of 1919, who have not had extended to them the Royal clemency?
I do not understand what is meant by the "Bengal troubles of 1915." If the hon. and gallant Member will state his requirements more clearly, I will make inquiries. As to the Punjab, if by "political prisoners in gaol as a result of the Punjab troubles in 1919," the hon. and gallant Member means persons convicted of participation in the disorders in the Punjab and elsewhere in April, 1919, the answer is, I think, 86.
Is there any proposal to reduce this number, and to extend the Royal clemency to people for whom it was intended? Also were there not Gandhi troubles in Bombay and Bengal in 1915?
I have got the figures with regard to what I understand the hon. and gallant Member means by the Punjab troubles. I have seen a statement that the Viceroy is reviewing these cases himself.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has yet any information as to the. proposed change of Gujranwala station in order to punish the town for the Punjabriots?
I have not yet received the result of the inquiry I made in response to the hon. and gallant Member's question on the 23rd March. I will let him know as soon as it arrives.
Murders, Nankana
asked the Secretary of State for India whether recently at Nankana 130 Sikhs were burned to death by a Mohant and his 50 Pathan mercenaries; whether the arrival and presence of these Pathans was known to the Punjab government; if so, what steps they took to prevent the massacre; and what punishment has been meted out to the murderers?
Communiqués were issued to the Press two months ago showing that 130 Sikhs were killed and their bodies burnt; and the Mohant at Nankana and 26 Pathan watchmen are among those arrested. I have not the information asked for in the second and third parts of the question, nor the exact details asked for in the last part. If the hon. and gallant Member desires these, it will be necessary for me to obtain them from India.
Is the trial still going on? Is the case sub judice?
I think so.
Reparation Claim
asked the Secretary of State for India whether the Legislative Assembly carried a motion claiming for India as a member of the League of Nations a share of the indemnity to be exacted from Germany; if so, whether this claim is allowed by His Majesty's Government to be valid; and whether His Majesty's Government or the Government of India will determine the amount due?
A motion to the effect stated by my hon. Friend was unanimously adopted by the Council of State on 26th March. The claim is allowed as valid by His Majesty's Government. The amount is under discussion.
Is any portion of the proceeds of the Reparation Act being paid over to India, and has India introduced the same method of raising money by a Reparation Bill as this country?
I do not think that that arises out of the question on the Paper.
Non-Co-Operation Meetings
asked the Secretary of State for India whether the crowds attending Mr. Gandhi's non co operation meetings in India intimidate the railway staff, take possession of the railway carriages, and travel to and fro without tickets; and, if so, what steps are the Government taking to prevent it?
On receiving notice of my hon. and gallant Friend's question, I made inquiries by telegram, but have not yet received a reply. I hope to be able to answer his question shortly.
Seditious Speeches, Madras
asked the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the statements made by Muhammed Ali at Madras, namely, that if Afghanistan came to India to fight the British Government the Ali brothers would help Afghanistan, and the further statement that he would be quite content that his brother and he should give up their lives if at the same time the British Empire should breathe its last; and whether the Government intend to tolerate language of this nature, which is a direct incitement to rebellion?
I have seen in the Press an extract which appears to be from the speech in question. I have been informed by telegram that the matter has been, and is at the moment, engaging the attention of the Government of India.
Rupee (Depreciation)
asked the Secretary of State for India if he has received any further advice from the Government of India making any practical suggestions for dealing with the industrial depression caused by the depreciation of the rupee?
The exchange position was fully discussed by the Finance Member of the Government of India in introducing the Indian Budget last March, and I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of his speech. My hon. Friend will see that the Government of India do not consider that there are any practicable steps that they can usefully take at the present time with a view to meeting the difficulties.
Riots, Malegaon
asked the Secretary of State, for India whether he can give any information with regard to the reports of the rioting at Malegaon, and as to the causes of such riots?
I have not yet received any further information from the Government of India beyond what I have already communicated to the Press on 28th April and 2nd May.
Madras Legislative Council (Women)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether the Madras Legislative Council has decided to abolish the sex disqualification for admission to the roll of electors; and, if so, whether the effect of such resolution will be to enfranchise any women other than such as have separate property?
I have seen reports in the Press to this effect, but have not yet received the official proceedings. As regards the second part of the question, the effect of such a resolution, in the words of the rule approved by Parliament, is that "the local Government shall make regulations providing that women, or a class of women, as the case may be, shall not be disqualified for registration by reason only of their sex." In other words, the qualifications for registration as electors would be exactly the same for women as for men. What those qualifications are the hon. Baronet can ascertain from the rules as approved by Parliament.
Cavalry Regiments (Reduction)
asked the Secretary for India whether the reduction of the 39 pre War Indian cavalry regiments of four squadrons each to 21 regiments of three squadrons each is now being carried out or not?
As I stated in reply to the hon. and gallant Member on the 19th and 6th of April, the answer is in the affirmative.
British Army
Royal Ulster Rifles
asked the Secretary of State for War whether the official title of the Royal Irish Rifles has been changed to that of the Royal Ulster Rifles; if so, at whose instance and on what grounds was this change made; whether the officers or men in the regiment were consulted in the matter; if so, what was the nature of their reply; whether he is aware of the indignation that is felt by all ranks at this departure; and will he take immediate steps to restore its ancient title to this historic regiment?
The question of the titles and designations of all regiments of the British Army has recently been considered by a Committee appointed by the Army Council. The following was their recommendation with regard to the Royal Ulster Rifles:—
"The Committee have taken evidence and have had much correspondence on the subject of the Royal Ulster Rifles. The opinion has been strongly expressed to the Committee that some Irish regiment should be closely associated with the Province of Ulster, as in the case of The Prince of Wales's Leinster Regiment (Royal Canadians), The Connaught Rangers and The Royal Munster Fusiliers with other provinces. They consider that the Royal Irish Rifles has as great a claim, if not the greatest, for this association with the Province of Ulster. They therefore recommend that the title of The Royal Irish Rifles be changed to that of The Royal Ulster Rifles."
I do not propose to reverse the decision based on this recommendation.
Were any of the officers or men in this regiment consulted about this change?
Yes, Sir. The officer commanding the 1st Battalion at Park hurst was consulted, and he and a considerable number of his officers were in favour of the change. The 2nd Battalion was in Mesopotamia, and their reply could not be received before the matter was settled?
Is it not the fact that the regiment known as the Royal Irish Rifles was largely drawn from parts of Ireland outside Ulster, and that the original battalion, namely, the 83rd Foot, was the County of Dublin Light Infantry? Had the Army Council the Tight, without the full consent of the officers of this regiment, to change their title?
When the Government considered the matter, did they, having regard to the difficulties of the Irish question, deem this a convenient moment for taking such a course of action?
The first supplementary questions are matters of history, as to which I must ask for notice.
Matters of fact!
The second supplementary question raises matters of policy, as to which it does not fall to me to reply.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that before the War and during the War the Regular battalions of this regiment were largely recruited in Dublin and outside Ulster, and that the Regular battalions have always had Catholic chaplains appointed to them, which is proof positive that these were not Ulster Regiments?
No, Sir, I am not aware of that.
Royal Army Service Corps
asked the Secretary of State for War when the new establishment of the Royal Army Service Corps will be announced; and whether, seeing that the present establishment is not adequate to fill the increased number of appointments necessary to efficiently maintain the mechanical transport section of the corps, he is aware that temporary officers are now employed?
The new establishments for the Royal Army Service Corps are under consideration with those for other arms of the Service, and I cannot make any announcement on the subject at present. As regards the last part of my hon. and gallant Friend's question, a number of temporary officers are employed with the Royal Army Service Corps to meet the present requirements owing to the deficiency of regular officers in that Corps.
Remount Officers
asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that the total number of officers, namely, 126, stated by him to be employed in the remount service of the Army, does not agree with the list of officers shown in the last Army List as being 148 in number; could the duties in connection with the Territorial boarding out scheme, for which he stated these officers are retained, be performed by the deputy assistant directors of veterinary services attached to each Territorial division, and that the purchases of all horses and camels in India are made by the veterinary service, and that those in England cannot be bought without being examined by a veterinary officer; does he, in these circumstances, still hold the opinion that it is necessary to saddle the country with the present duplication of expense in connection with remounts for the Army; and will he give an assurance that the question of the necessity for the retention of the existing expensive remount department as a separate service will have his careful consideration?
In quoting the figure of 148 officers, my hon. and gallant Friend is evidently including the 22 officers shown on page 314 of the Army List, but, as stated on that page, these are temporary appointments. They are serving in Mesopotamia, Egypt, Constantinople and with the Army of the Rhine, and their, employment is due entirely to the existing military conditions in the countries in which they are employed. They do not belong to the normal establishment of the Remount Department, and are being reduced as rapidly as circumstances permit. As regards the second part of the question, the remount officers are not retained solely for the purpose of the Territorial boarding out scheme. They are performing in addition all their pre War duties in connection with the classification of horses. Their duties could not be carried out by the deputy assistant directors of veterinary services attached to Territorial divisions. I am informed that the purchase of horses and camels in India is not carried out by the veterinary service, such purchases being made by the Indian Remount Department in practically the same manner as in the United Kingdom. The Remount Department and the Veterinary Department in India are separate services, as in this country. As regards the remainder of the question, as promised during the Debate in this House on 20th April last, my right hon. Friend is looking into the whole question of the Remount Department.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the whole of the purchases of camels in India were made during the War by the Veterinary Department, and that the change has probably been made lately?
I am not aware of that. I must ask for notice of that question.
Intelligence Service
asked the Secretary of State, for War whether the branch of the intelligence service known as I 5 is still in existence; if so, how many officers, men, and civilian staff are employed in it; who is its head; what is its estimated annual cost for the current year and upon what Vote is it borne; how many offices it occupies in London and in the provinces; and what are its functions, especially in connection with the organised Labour movement of this and other countries?
It is not in the public interest to give the information asked for in the hon. and gallant Member's question.
Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say whether money voted for the service of collecting military intelligence is being devoted to industrial espionage and other activities of that sort?
I have no reason to believe that that is the case.
Ought not this work to be done by the Home Secretary's Department, and not by the War Office, and is it not in the public interest to make that matter clear?
School of Instruction, Newmarket
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the Army school of instruction at Newmarket is said to be making no use of 50 acres of the land which they occupy; that the Ministry of Agriculture, through their Norwich Commissioner, have asked for this land for the purpose of small holdings and allotments which are urgently required; and whether, in view of there being no other land in the neighbourhood equally suitable, and in view of the importance of providing small holdings or allotments in an accessible neighbourhood for ex-service men, he will arrange for this land to be surrendered?
The land referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend is used for the recreational training of all ranks at the school of education, and is essential to the health of those undergoing courses. It is hoped to arrange for the school to be moved elsewhere, when the land will be handed back.
Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say how soon there is a chance of this move taking place, and the land being freed for small holdings?
I am afraid I cannot say.
Recalled Officers (Allowances)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, under the Royal Warrant for Pay, paragraph 496, retired Army officers compulsorily recalled to service are entitled to the same rates of pay and allowances as officers of corresponding Army rank, in addition to any retired pay of which they may be in receipt, and in addition under paragraph 497 are entitled to certain gratuities; whether Army Order 154 of this year cancels this arrangement, stops the retired pay and pension, and grants £5 for wear and tear of uniforms in lieu of gratuities; what justification there is for enforcing one side of the contract as against the officer while repudiating the Government's liability to fulfil the obligations which it has promised; and whether, in view of the fact that many officers will, under the new arrangement, be much out of pocket by having to leave their businesses and having to rejoin the forces, he will reconsider the matter and carry out the provisions of the Royal Warrant?
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, according to the regulations of the Special Reserve, paragraph 419, officers of the Special Reserve are entitled to a grant of £50 on being called up during an emergency; whether, also according to the conditions laid down in the Royal Pay Warrant, paragraph 497, such officers are entitled on being demobilised to a gratuity of 124 days' pay for the first year, or part thereof, of service during such emergency; whether, on the 12th April, 1921, or three days after the Royal Proclamation calling up such officers, an Army Order No. 154/21 was issued stating that neither the grant nor the gratuity would be made, but that a grant of £5 per officer will be given for wear and tear of kit; whether, seeing that £5 is not an adequate amount to compensate officers for their civilian disturbance and for providing additional kit, the Government will take all the circumstances into consideration and revoke the regulations previously made; and whether he will give instructions that the Army Order issued on the 12th April shall be at once rescinded?
The grant of £50 provided in paragraph 419, Regulations for Special Reserve, will be issued to officers of the Special Reserve who joined for duty in the present emergency. As regards Articles 496 and 497 of the Royal Warrant, I would refer my hon. and gallant Friends to the written reply given yesterday to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Oxford University (Sir C. Oman).
Is it not the case that the War Office are paying officers of the Reserve even when they have only registered and have not in fact been called up or put to any expense; and could they consider giving better terms to the officers who are actually made to do military duty, and either nothing to those who are just registered or only their bare out-of-pocket expenses?
I am not aware of the fact that the hon. and gallant Member first stated, but I will look into it and see whether it is so.
Is it not the case that a great many of these officers were called up before the 12th April, when the Army Order was issued, and ought not they to be given the full gratuity?
I think my hon. and gallant Friend must be thinking of the Special Reserve Officers who were called up before the 12th April.
Yes.
If my hon. and gallant Friend will read the first part of my answer, he will see that I said that the grant of £50 will be paid to those who joined up.
Does not the hon. and gallant Gentleman think that the time is a little close I Considering that the ordinary calling up was on the 9th April, and the proposal for the alteration is contained in an Order issued on the 12th April, does he think it is really giving proper time for officers of the Special Reserve in various parts of the country to have reported themselves, and can he say whether some extension of the date from the 12th April could be given?
They get now the grant of £50, whether they came up on the 9th or on the 12th. It does not refer at all to them.
If they came up after the 12th, will they still get the £50, irrespectively of the Order having been issued?
I would not like to answer that off hand, but I think so. I will find out and let my hon. and gallant Friend know.
Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman also look into the really grave scandal of giving Reserve officers, who are doing no service at all, three weeks' pay and sending them back to their private occupations, while officers who are called up receive only the poor pay and allowances referred to in the questions?
I will look into that.
Army List
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is able to state the number of copiess printed of each edition of the Army List; how many of the copies are distributed gratis; and what is the total cost per annum of the issue?
I am informed that the average number of copies printed of the Monthly Army List is 6,550, and of the Quarterly Army List 710. The numbers of copies distributed gratis ( i.e., for official use), including the War Office, the Army, and other Government Departments, are: Monthly Army List, 4,025; Quarterly Army List, 510. The approximate total cost per annum of the issue is: Monthly Army List, £30,500; Quarterly Army List, £11,000. As the House has already been informed, a Committee was appointed to consider what steps could be taken to reduce the cost of the Army List, and as a result certain details are to be omitted from future editions which will effect a substantial saving. It has also been decided to include advertisements in the book with a view to lessening the cost of production, and the arrangements for their insertion are now well advanced. I would add that a considerable reduction is being made in the number of copies of the Army List circulated in the War Office, and to the Army at home and abroad.
How much has been obtained already for these advertisements?
I must ask for notice of that question.
May I venture to congratulate the hon. and gallant Gentleman on the new move?
Ordnance Corps Depot, Woolwich
asked the Secretary of State for War whether it is intended to transfer the Royal Army Ordnance Depôt from Woolwich to Hilsea, and that this transfer will entail the removal of the Royal Field Artillery brigade and depot now stationed at Hilsea; what expense to the public would be entailed by these removals and the necessary alterations to Hilsea barracks to make them suitable for the new occupation; and, if so, can an explanation be given of the advantages accruing by the changes?
The accommodation at Red Barracks and Cambridge Barracks, Woolwich, which is at present shared by the Royal Army Ordnance Corps Depot, Records and School of Instruction with the Artillery College, is inadequate to meet the requirements of both establishments. The question of the provision of alternative accommodation is therefore under consideration, but a definite decision has not yet been reached. I would explain that the Royal Army Ordnance Corps Depôt referred to is the corps depôt for recruits, training, etc., and has no connection with the ordnance depot for stores at the Royal Arsenal and Woolwich Dockyard.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the Hilsea barracks have been occupied by artillery for generations, and that a very strong feeling exists among artillery officers that the place should not be handed over to the. Ordnance Department?
I have said that the whole question is still under consideration, and that point, undoubtedly, will be taken into account.
Questions
Russian Consulate, London
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department who are the occupants of the house in Bedford Square, London, known as the Russian Consulate; what Government are they supposed to represent; and to whom do persons in this country wishing to proceed to Russia apply for Russian visas for their passports?
I have been asked to reply to this question. The Russian Consulate in Bedford Square is occupied by Monsieur Onou, who holds the rank of Consul General in the former Russian Consular Service and represented the late Provisional Government. With regard to the last part, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to Articles 4 and 8 of the Trade Agreement in accordance with which the Russian Trade Delegation is the proper authority in this country to grant a visa for entering Russia.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Russian subjects wishing to travel in France are compelled to go to Monsieur Onou for visas; and is Monsieur Onou still recognised by the Government and assisted or helped in any way?
It is quite true that Russian subjects go to this Russian Consulate, because they have nowhere else to go to, but there is no question of recognising Monsieur Onou.
Will the hon. Gentleman do everything in his power to facilitate the granting of passports to Bolshevist subjects in this country who wish to leave?
Telephone Service
asked the Postmaster General whether subscribers to the telephone service who are desirous of paying for each call as they make it are charged 7s. 6d. a quarter for rental of the coin box and a fee for a local call of 2d. instead of I½d,; whether further calls involving a trunk fee of 1½d. are also to be charged at 2d. each, making a total fee of 4d. instead of 3d.; and, if so, will he explain why these additional charges are made, and why a subscriber who pays cash is charged 2d. for a call for which, if he had an account with the Post Office, he would only be debited 1½d.?
As stated in reply to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds on 19th April, this question is being reviewed.
Will steps be taken to see that these people who pay the money in advance are not charged more because of their payment previous to their receiving the communication?
Theoretically, it is a very simple question, but, practically, it is very difficult. The question is being reviewed. I will communicate with the hon. and gallant Gentleman at the first opportunity.
Does the hon. Gentleman realise the great feeling among the people who have these boxes, and the way they are incensed at having to pay 2d. where other people are paying for the same accommodation 1½d.? That is a 33⅓ advance on other people.
I understand the figures, and I realise the difficulty. The question is being reviewed.
Disability Pension
asked the Minister of Pensions when the new post War scale disability pension will be in operation?
If my hon. Friend is referring to post War rates of pension for pre War disability pensioners who served again in the Navy during the Great War, I may inform him that the matter is under consideration and that my right hon. Friend hopes to make an announcement at an early date.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that not so long ago I was told a decision was about to be made? That was about ten days ago.
Home-Grown Wheat (Grant)
asked the Minister of Agriculture what will be the grant payable for the current month to millers per quarter of British wheat milled to make it worth their while to buy such wheat, in view of the new figure published on the 23rd April of 92s. per quarter for foreign wheat during the forthcoming month?
The grant payable to millers in respect of home grown wheat ground during the month of May will not be less than 25s. per quarter of 504 lbs. I will send the hon. and gallant Member a copy of the notice on this subject issued on the 22nd April.
What is the grant that will be paid to the miller—not 55s., surely?
I have said not less than 25s. per quarter of 504 lbs.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that fully 40 percent, of that never reaches the farmer at all?
If 25s. was paid when the guaranteed price was 95s., now that the price has dropped to 92s., why should the grant to the miller remain the same?
Because the price of foreign imported wheat also dropped a certain amount.
Fully 40 percent, never reaches the farmer at all. Can the hon. Gentleman give me any explanation where it goes?
No, I cannot. The sole object of the grant is to induce millers to buy English grown wheat. If farmers choose to sell through dealers, of course some of the money may be stopped there.
In cases where it is sold direct to the miller it does not reach the farmer. Where does it go in that case?
If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will send me details I will look into it.
Farm Colony, Patrington
asked the Minister of Agriculture how long it is proposed to continue the Government Farm Colony at Patrington, in East Yorkshire, on a profit-sharing basis, in view of the improbability of there being any profits to share; and whether the Ministry can at an early date carry out the recommendations of Sir Lawrence Weaver's Report, and put an end to this attempt to farm? strong and difficult land from Whitehall?
The Ministry is proceeding at once to carry out, so far as is practicable, all the recommendations contained in the Report referred to. The Report did not, however, recommend the closing down of all the profit sharing, settlements, and I am not prepared to consider at the present time the disposal of the Patrington Settlement, at which 52 ex-service settlers and 2 ex-services probationers are now employed. The future working of the Settlement is, however, engaging special attention.
Is there any profit whatever in our share of the transaction? Has my hon. Friend consulted the Agricultural Committee of the East Riding?
Yes, we have been in constant consultation with the committee in question, but we cannot at present dispose of all the property, on which a large number of ex soldiers are now employed.
Air Force Reserve, Eastchurch
asked the Secretary of State for Air what is the number of Air Force reservists encamped at Eastchurch, Isle of Sheppey; how many of these are officers, warrant officers, and non commissioned officers, respectively; what is the weekly cost of maintaining this camp; what duties these officers and men are performing; whether a deputation from the camp waited upon the camp commandant and respectfully represented the great loss and hardship many of the officers and men in camp were experiencing; and when it is intended to release them?
The number of Air Force reservists at Eastchurch is 1,071. This includes 24 warrant officers and 456 non commissioned officers. There are no reservist officers. The estimated weekly cost is £4,000, this figure representing pay and maintenance of the personnel. Beyond the normal duties of the station, no special work has yet been ordered. Representations in the sense suggested in the fifth part of the question have been made by individual airmen on the invitation of the Officer Commanding. The decision to release these officers and men rests with the Cabinet.
Has the Commandant any instructions to release men who can prove hardship in business by being kept on in idleness in this way?
The regular and recognised percentage of men for leave is of course in full force at Eastchurch as elsewhere. Hard cases are dealt with first.
Is it not obvious that these officers and men are really not required? Would it not be a great saving to let them go back?
That part of the question is answered in the latter part of my reply, that the decision must rest with the Cabinet.
Wool
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if the Government have disposed of their surplus stock of wool to the British Australian Wool Realisation Association, Limited; what is the quantity of wool so disposed of and the price realised for same; whether the transaction shows profit or a loss, and the amount; who acted upon behalf of the Government in fixing the prices and carrying through the negotiations; and whether, having regard to the magnitude of this transaction, he will issue a White Paper giving all details and particulars?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and the remaining questions do not therefore arise. My answer on the 18th April to the hon. and gallant Member for Jarrow explains the nature of the arrangements under which certain stocks of wool have been transferred to the British Australian Wool Realisation Association.
Official Report (Index)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware of the great inconvenience caused to Ministers as well as Members by the delay in the publication of the index to the OFFICIAL REPORT of PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES; and whether he will direct the Stationery Office to make a weekly index available for Members in manuscript, if not in print?
This question was considered by the Select Committee on Publications and Debates Reports in 1919, and the hon. Member will find the Committee's recommendation in paragraph 5 of H.C. 244/19. In view of the necessity which still exists for stringent economy in expenditure incurred on account of public services, I regret that I do not feel justified in acceding to the hon. Member's request in the second part of the question.
Has the hon. and gallant Gentleman noticed the second part of the question, which does not involve any extra expense whatever?
I am afraid I cannot possibly agree.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that it used to be the duty of one of the Librarians to keep this weekly index in manuscript? It was a tremendous convenience to hon. Members. As that Librarian is still doing the same work, could not the hon. and gallant Gentleman and the Leader of the House see the convenience to hon Members, whether it was printed or not, that this Librarian should keep a manuscript index?
I certainly was not aware of the historical fact to which the hon. Member alludes. It is clearly a question for the officials of the House, and not for a Minister.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the index referred to was not an index to the Debates, but merely an index to questions?
Trade Unions (Secret Ballots)
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government has considered the possibility of introducing legislation to enforce a secret ballot among the trade unions affected prior to all industrial disputes; whether the trade unions have been approached on the point and what are their views on the subject; and whether, in the interests of the entire community, he will see whether it is possible to arrive at some mutual understanding between the trade unions and the Government which will permit of such secret ballots being introduced?
This question was covered by the Prime Minister's reply to the hon. Member for Dulwich on the 18th April, and I would ask the hon. Member to refer to that answer.
Transmigrants
asked the Home Secretary if his attention has been called to the crowds of aliens arriving at Liverpool Street station viâ Harwich and at Dover by the steamers from Ostend, and to the miserable appearance of these persons and the unknown language they speak; if they are only passing through this country or intend to settle here; why this invasion is permitted at such a time; and if he has power under the Alien Acts to put a stop to it?
I think the hon. Member must be referring to the aliens arriving in this country as transmigrants, that is to say, purely for the purpose of proceeding to other countries with the through tickets which they hold, and under the bonds given by the steamship companies as security that they will not remain here. No invasion of this country is involved by this traffic, which is of considerable commercial importance to the country. It is closely regulated, and I cannot contemplate stopping it.
Is it certain that none of these men stop in the country as undesirable aliens?
None of them stop as undesirables. I cannot say that none of the people whom the hon. Member has seen have stopped, but the very large majority are passing through.
Is any officer charged with the duty of seeing that they do not lose their through tickets here?
Window Scratching
asked the Home Secretary how many windows have recently been scratched in the Metropolitan police area; whether any arrests or convictions have been obtained; and whether the cause of the outrages is definitely known?
There have been numerous cases of window scratching in the Metropolitan police district, but the police cannot estimate the number. In many cases reported to them, the damage is not of recent origin. Proceedings have been taken in two cases, but in both the charge was dismissed; in a third case proceedings are pending. The police prefer not to express any opinion as to the cause of the outrages.
Is there any evidence for the statement that it has anything to do with Sinn Fein?
I have already said the police are not in a position to offer any opinion.
Coal Industry Dispute
Co-Partnership
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government has considered the feasibility of mines being acquired and run on a co-partnership or profit sharing basis, on lines similar to those adopted by the South Metropolitan Gas Company, the debentures in money or credit to be held by the Government on behalf of the public, and a Government representative to sit on the board of directors?
I have been asked to reply. I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given by the Prime Minister yesterday to the hon. Baronet the Member for the Maldon Division.
Wages
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the average wage per hour worked which would be payable to adult workers in the mines in accordance with the proposal made by the Government to the Miners' Federation at their meeting on the 28th instant?
I have been asked to reply. The average rate of earnings of all adult colliery workers in March, 1921, was approximately 18s. 6d. per shift. The Government's offer was that in no district should wages during May be reduced by more than 3s. per shift. The actual amount of the average reduction over the whole of the coalfields would depend upon the final settlement as to the grouping of coalfields in the federated area, but, assuming that the maximum reduction became operative over the whole of the federated area, the average wages per shift for adults during May would be 15s. 6d. It is difficult to express this average as an hourly rate, as there is considerable variation in the hours worked by different classes of labour.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what was the shift price in August, 1914?
I must have notice of that question.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is great uncertainty in the minds of the general community by reason of the dispute that has arisen in the method of calculation by the miners and the mineowners; the mineowners calculating the wage payable on the basis of 5½ days, and the Miners' Federation on the basis of 4·9 days per week, and does he not think in these circumstances it would be better to have the wage calculated on an hourly basis, so that everyone can understand?
I have said that the difficulties in the way of the hourly basis would be more confusing than the method now adopted. I admit that it is desirable that the actual wages payable should be made perfectly clear to everybody concerned.
Is it not a fact that the owners' proposals at the moment are only made conditional upon the miners agreeing that if there is no improvement in the state of trade between now and September that in September the Welsh miners' wages will be 8d. an hour?
I do not know anything of any condition as to 8d. an hour. The condition was that if it was necessary owing to the state of the industry a further fall would take place, exactly in the same way as if the industry improved the workers would get the benefit of the improvement in proportion to the amount paid to the owner.
Is it not the fact that the owners' proposal involved this that if there were no improvement within the next four months the Welsh miners must accept 11s. 7½d. per day reduction in their wages?
I should not like to say offhand.
Is it not the fact?
I am not at all convinced that it is the fact. I could not answer without looking into it, but the proposal of the Government depended upon a temporary arrangement for four months and a permanent arrangement after that.
May I ask for an answer to my uestion—what was the shift wage in 1914?
I must ask the hon. Member to give notice of that question. I cannot carry these figures in my head.
Mr. Speaker, may I—
The hon. Member's question goes much further than the question on the Paper.
Government Offer
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government's offer of £10,000,000 as a temporary subsidy to the mining industry is still open; and, if so, whether there is a time limit on its acceptance?
I venture to refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which my right hon Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave to the Noble Lord the Member for Battersea (Viscount Curzon) yesterday.
Is the Government responsible for the posters on this matter, which are going up all over London at the present time?
The hon. Member must ask that of some other Minister.
Yorkshire Deputies' Association
asked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that the West Yorkshire Coalowners' Association are compelling members of the Yorkshire Deputies' Association to leave such association and join the Coalowners' Mutual Aid Scheme, and have declared in some cases if the men do not take this course such men will not be allowed to commence work on the termination of the dispute; whether such action is resented and likely to prolong the stoppage; and what steps he proposes to take to avoid continued unrest and a prolongation of the dispute by reason of the action of the Coalowners?
I have made enquiries, but so far as I can learn it is not the considered policy of the West Yorkshire Coalowners' Association to insist upon the deputies joining the Colliery Staffs' Mutual Benefit Society as a condition of their reemployment after the termination of the miners' dispute. If my hon. Friend has any particular case in mind of which he will give me details, I shall be glad to have it investigated.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that this association is compelling its members to leave the Deputies' Association, and that this other association is in no sense a trade union; and is it the policy of the Government to assist in these ideas of breaking up trade unionism, and, if so, why not say so openly?
They do not say it openly because it is not their policy. I am not aware that what is described in the first part of the question is taking place. I am quite aware that the other association is not a trade union. If the hon. Member will give me some facts that will enable me to inquire I will do so.
Questions at Issue
( by Private Notice ) asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the statements now being made, more especially by representatives of the miners' interests, the country is now justified in assuming that the dispute in the coal industry is no longer a wages issue, that a readjustment of miners' wages is suggested on a fair and reasonable basis, and that the dispute which is still continuing is for a purely political end which can only be sanctioned or rejected as a whole by the electorate at the polls?
Before that question is answered I wish to raise a point of Order. I would like to know whether there will be an opportunity given, after the reply to the question, for a discussion on what is being stated? We are getting these questions and answers and, as I understand, there is no chance of replying to them. An entirely false impression is thus being created. We are really getting mere ex parte statements. Shall I be in order in replying on the statements made?
The hon. Member has made quite a fair point. Perhaps I was a little easygoing in permitting this question. It appears to raise a controversial subject, and I think that ought not to be introduced in the form of a question, without being put on the Paper. Had the question appeared on the Paper, the controversial part of it would not have been allowed to appear.
May I say that I had no intention of raising any controversy at all?
I was not attributing, any blame to the hon. Member, but rather to myself. I gave a rather cursory glance at the question, and took no objection to it at the moment. I do not think we should pursue the matter any further.
My object was merely to ask the Government to let the country know what I thought was the uncontroversial fact, and whether it is a wages issue or not. The hon. Member who has objected is one of those for whom we have a great respect, and he has been talking of the wages question. I wanted to make it clear whether the wages question has not been ruled out entirely and that the country should know the fact that it had been ruled out.
That makes it more clear that the matter cannot be dealt with in the form of a question, without notice.
Questions
Criminal Law Amendment Bill
asked the Prime Minister if he will give facilities this Session for the passage, through all its stages, of the Criminal Law Amendment Bill?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth on the 12th April last.
Ireland
Negotiations With Sinn Fein
asked the Prime Minister whether he is despatching any envoy to Ireland for the purpose of negotiation with Sinn Fein?
The answer is in the negative.
Can my right hon. Friend say if there is any truth in the rumour in this morning's newspapers that the ex-Lord Mayor of Dublin has been entrusted with a message to Sinn Fein?
No, Sir. The Government have not sent a message by anybody, or authorised anybody to open negotiations on their behalf. The position of the Government is as stated by the Prime Minister in the Debate last week.
Then may we take it that there is no truth in the rumour in this morning's newspapers?
I am not responsible for what appears in the newspapers. I have no more knowledge about it than hon. Members opposite.
Shooting, Liscahane
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether an inquiry has yet been held into shooting by military or police which resulted in the death of Daniel O'Driscoll, aged 16, and the wounding of John Sullivan, aged 18, at Liscahane, Ardfert, on 12th April, and with what result?
I am informed that the finding of the military court of inquiry held in lieu of inquest was that Daniel O'Driscoll was shot when with others he was running away and was called upon to halt, and that no blame whatever attaches to the Royal Irish Constabulary. According to the police report of the occurrence, Daniel O'Driscoll and John Sullivan were found by a patrol of auxiliaries making a trench in a road. They ran away when they saw the Crown forces, and though called upon to halt, refused to do so. Fire was opened on them. O'Driscoll was mortally wounded and died some hours later. Sullivan was also wounded, while engaged in bandaging up O'Driscoll's wounds. Shots which wounded one auxiliary and penetrated the clothing of another were fired from a shrubbery close by.
Raids by Crown Forces
asked the Chief Secretary whether it is usual for members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, including the auxiliary division, to carry out raids and arrests while dressed in mufti; and whether, in view of the dangers of this practice to themselves and to other persons, he will consider the advisability of having such operations carried out always by men in uniform?
Raids and arrests are almost invariably carried out by Crown Forces in uniform and it is only in exceptional cases that this practice is departed from. For obvious reasons it is sometimes necessary for police officers to carry out their duties in mufti.
Can the right hon. Gentleman justify the use of three lorry loads of armed men in the attack on the Castleconnell Hotel in daylight?
I have already stated that in that case my recollection is that the men were on leave.
Is not one of the reasons why men convicted of levying war against the Crown cannot be treated as prisoners of war the fact that they do not wear uniforms?
It is one of many.
It does not apply to Crown forces?
No. Occasionally all police officers have to go in mufti.
Were not both parties in the Castle-connell case in plain clothes?
I must ask my hon. Friend to give me notice.
Motor Car, Ballycogoran
ask the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that on 30th January Mrs. Grey, of Ballycogoran, near Killaloe, wife of a retired Colonial civil servant, applied for a special permit for her motor car: that no reply was received, but a week later the district inspector came and demanded an essential part of the car, which was given; that on 23rd February a party of auxiliaries, bringing an order signed by the officer commanding G company, Auxiliary Division, commandeered the car; that it was brought back in a damaged condition, whereupon Mrs. Grey refused to receive it; whether he has received a letter from Mrs. Grey stating these facts and asking that she should be paid the value of the car, £560; and, in view of the fact that this letter was written on 11th March, and that no reply beyond a bare acknowledgment has been received, will he state what action he proposes to take in this matter?
The answer to the first three parts of the question is in the affirmative. On the 28th February, Mrs. Grey was informed that the car was ready for return to her and a cheque was sent her for its use at the rate of 3d. a mile for the distance actually covered. Mrs. Grey replied that she was going away and asked permission to leave the car temporarily in police custody and it has remained at her disposal since. As regards the alleged damage to the car I have ascertained that the near side rear mud guard is dented, the petrol tank screw cap missing, and the accumulator box has been broken and repaired. On the other hand the magneto has been adjusted and re-timed, the foot brake tightened, and the clutch, which was deficient, has been rectified. The car is, as I have stated, at Mrs. Grey's disposal, and I am prepared to pay a reasonable sum in respect of the damage stated above. I am certainly not prepared to pay the value of the car.
Is it in order that cars should be commandeered on the signed order of a company commander?
Yes.
Police Pensions
asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been called to the fact that a sergeant in the Royal Irish Constabulary who retired 20 years ago on a pension of £72 a year receives £28 16s. increase of pension under the Act of 1920, and that a constable of the Royal Irish Constabulary who retired about the same time on a pension of £62 a year receives £24 16s. increase of pension, whereas a sergeant of the Royal Irish Constabulary who retired in June, 1918, by reason of physical infirmity, on a pension of £69 6s. 8d. only receives £8 6s. 8d. increase of pension; what is the reason of this anomaly; and whether he will take steps to remove it?
A sergeant of the Royal Irish Constabulary who retired in June, 1918, on a pension of £69 6s. 8d. per annum, would, if the calculation were made on the pre-War basis, have been eligible only for a pension of £55 9s. 4d. The latter figure, therefore, and not £72 or £62, as quoted in the question, is the true pre-War analogy in this case. The portion of the pension of £69 6s. 8d. which represents a post-War increase, namely £13 17s. 4d., is required by the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1920, to be set oft against the increase which the ex-sergeant might have obtained under that Act if he had not received the post-War increase. This requirement of the Act being clearly essential, no amendment can be contemplated.
Fisheries (Protection)
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether he is aware that French fishing vessels are constantly seen fishing within the three-mile limit at the Skelligs, Lemon Rock, Cape Clear, Fast-net Rocks, and Blasket Islands; and if he will take steps to ensure that the fishery cruisers are properly performing their duties so as to prevent it?
The Department are not aware that encroachments of the nature referred to are of frequent occurrence, but a few cases have been reported to them. A message received last week that French lobster boats were fishing in territorial waters off Dingle Bay was immediately communicated to the local naval fishery officer at Queenstown.
Questions
Licensing (Proposed Conference)
asked the Prime Minister when he proposes to call a round-table Conference on liquor control and licensing legislation?
The Conference will be convened as soon as the necessary arrangements have been completed.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the intense amount of dissatisfaction caused by the fact that those areas which did such splendid service in the munition work are now penalised compared with those areas which did not do such service?
No, Sir, I cannot answer my hon. Friend's question in the affirmative. I come from one of those areas which largely assisted in munition work, and I should hardly be prepared to endorse the view that there was widespread dissatisfaction.
Mr. BILLING rose—
This will lead to a Debate.
Silver Coinage
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer for what purpose silver coin is now utilised as part of the reserve against the issue of currency notes; whether there is any limit to the amount of silver coin that may be used in this way; and, in view of the unpopularity of the new semi-nickel coinage both at home and abroad, he can confine the use of the new coinage to the special purpose of such reserve, reverting to our old standard for all silver coinage sent to those Colonies where our silver money is free legal tender?
As a matter of convenience of machinery in connection with the withdrawal of old silver coin, silver coin to the face value of £3,000,000 is now held on the Currency Note Redemption Account as part of the security for the fiduciary portion of the issue, not as cash cover for the non-fiduciary portion. There is no special limit on the amount of such holdings, but it is not proposed to add to them at present. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the injustice which natives of West Africa feel in having the new coinage forced upon them to an unlimited extent?
I am afraid that I am not aware of the feeling on this subject of the natives of West Africa, but I shall be glad to listen to any representation of their views.
Is not the principle laid down in the Treasury that they should take a certain amount of silver coinage for the backing of currency notes?
This is rather a matter for discussion. It would be impossible to deal with it by way of question and answer.
Bank of England
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, seeing that the Bank of England performs certain functions on behalf of the nation, but that the representatives of the nation have no voice in its management, he will consider the suggestion that, with reference to the important question of alteration from time to time in the Bank Rate, this great institution should be assisted in its deliberations by means of a small committee, upon which would be representatives of the Bank of England, the Treasury, the great joint stock banks, and the trading interests of the country?
The constitution and functions of the Bank of England have been very carefully considered from time to time, the latest occasion being when the matter was examined by the Committee on Currency and Foreign Exchanges after the War, which reported in 1918 and 1919 against any change. I am not now prepared to reopen the question.
Seeing that the Board contains one, or perhaps two, members representing the overseas banks, would it not be possible to suggest that at least one representative of the great clearing banks of this country should be put upon the Board?
Any suggestion of the sort would, obviously, involve the whole question of State interference or State control.
That is just what I want to do.
That is just what I refuse to do.
Income Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many times during the last 10 years has the Crown appealed against decisions of the Income Tax Commissioners; and how often during that period has the Court of Appeal reversed the decisions of the Income Tax Commissioners?
The number of cases during the last 10 years in which cases were demanded on behalf of the Crown for the opinion of the Courts was about 700. Only a small proportion of these cases—34 in number—actually reached the Courts, and of these, 23 cases were decided in favour of the Crown.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Law Officers of the Crown have been consulted on the question as to whether the deductions allowed by Sections 17 to 23 of The Finance Act, 1920, are applicable to Super-tax as well as to Income Tax; and, if not, whether he will undertake to consult them?
It has not been considered necessary to trouble the Law Officers in this matter. In this connection I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on the 28th ultimo to the hon. and learned Member for York in reply to a question on this subject. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy.
Has my hon. Friend read the remarkable letter, amounting almost to a judgment, in "The Times" from a very distinguished judge who is a Member of the other House?
Yes, Sir. I have read the letter. If it is a judgment, I fear it is a judgment delivered ex parte.
Will the hon. Gentleman consider the propriety of consulting the Law Officers on this matter, so that if the demands made by the Treasury are not justified by the Act the demands should cease?
I would point out that if any taxpayer feels aggrieved by the doctrine to which I have just referred, a regular remedy is open to him by an appeal to the Commissioners.
If the Law Officers should be of the opinion that the demand is not justified, why should the taxpayer be put to the trouble and expense of appealing?
It is not considered that there is enough doubt in the matter to make it necessary to adopt the course suggested.
Will the hon. Gentleman make further inquiries on that point?
When there is a doubt, as shown by the statement of the learned judge, does the hon. Member not think it advisable to consult the Law Officers of the Crown? If that is not done, what is the good of the Law Officers of the Crown?
Civil Service (Bonus)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what are the classes of Government servants in respect to whom the State has accepted the principle that the bonus paid. should meet in full the rise in the cost of living as indicated by the Board of Trade index; what are the classes in respect of whom this principle has not been accepted; and what is the bonus assessment in these cases; and whether the majority of manual workers whose wages are now being reduced are in most cases before the suggested reductions far better off as compared with pre-War rates of pay than State employés?
Broadly speaking, permanent Government servants of the clerical and post office classes, and members of associated subordinate grades, whose basic wage does not exceed 35s. a week are granted a bonus corresponding to the full rise in the cost of living is measured by averages of the Ministry of Labour index figures. The wages of other grades and of the bulk of temporary employés are regulated by reference to the current market rate, and their remuneration is not differentiated into basic wage and bonus except in the case of industrial workers for whom a bonus is prescribed by Trade Union practice. In the case of the latter, bonus is at the rate obtaining in their particular trade. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour to the hon. and gallant Member for the Henley Division on the 7th April
National Expenditure
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will have brought up to date and re-issued the memorandum of present and pre-War expenditure, and particulars of Government staffs at different dates before, during, and since the War (Cmd. 802, 1920)?
Yes, Sir. I am taking steps to have this Return brought up to date.
Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of Income Tax, Schedule D, and Excess Profits Tax that would have been received by the Treasury out of the total amount of profits earned by the Central Control Board's (Liquor Traffic) operations in Carlisle and other controlled districts since the beginning of their work if these businesses had been regarded as private undertakings and taxed accordingly?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on the 23rd November last to the hon. Member for the Everton Division of Liverpool, and to the Memorandum prefixed to the Central Control Board's accounts contained in Command Paper 1018 of 1920.
Is it not a fact that if Income Tax under Schedule D and Excess Profits Duty had been deducted under the usual arrangement, the amount of profit would have been considerably less than is specified?
The difficulty is to decide how any usual arrangement could be applied to such a special case. It would be a hypothetical calculation, and it would be very difficult to know how to make it.
Mexican Securities
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in order to conserve British capital for objects which are less likely to result in a loss to the nation as a whole, he will take steps in the proper quarters to prohibit the importation of and dealings in securities issued by the present and future Mexican Government authorities unless and until those authorities meet the obligations to British investors issued by the Mexican Government prior to 1910, which have been in default for some years past?
The British Government gave up soon after the Armistice the control over capital issues which was found necessary during the War, and I do not think any support would be forthcoming for a proposal that they should re-impose such control in any form.
Rates, Monmouth
asked the Minister of Health whether the rates of the Borough of Monmouth have been reduced by 2s. 8d. in the £ and, if so, whether other borough councils will be expected to follow this example?
I am having inquiry made as to the rates of the Borough of Monmouth, and will communicate the result to my hon. Friend. I shall be glad if, in fact, this and other councils find themselves in the happy position suggested.
Will my right hon. Friend commend to every local council in the United Kingdom the example of this compassionate corporation?
Is it not due entirely to the increase of assessments?
I am making inquiries.
Housing Finance
asked the Minister of Health what is the total sum subscribed by the public to finance the provision of houses for the working classes under the Acts of 1919 and 1920; how far does he estimate that the amount subscribed will finance the schemes already entered into or approved of; and what will be the balance to be found by the taxpayer?
Approximately £125,000,000 has been borrowed under the Housing Acts to date. I do not anticipate that local authorities will have any difficulty in raising the necessary capital to finance the schemes already entered into or in sight. No capital moneys for housing will be found by the taxpayer apart from the subsidy to private builders provided under the Housing (Additional Powers) Act, 1919.
What is the total amount subscribed to housing bonds by the public?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman must give me notice.
It is on the Paper.
I have told the hon. and gallant Gentleman that £125,000,000 have been borrowed under the Housing Acts, but there is no question as to how much has been borrowed on housing bonds. The question is how much has been subscribed, and the amount mentioned has been subscribed.
Parks (Tennis Courts)
asked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Com- missioner of Works whether it would be possible to utilise a portion of Hyde Park and Regent's Park for the laying out of hard tennis courts; and whether such courts could be run on self-supporting lines, and add vastly to the amenities and pleasure of the people?
The First Commissioner regrets that it is impossible to adopt the suggestion contained in the first part of the question, as it would involve the permanent enclosure of portions of the park to the exclusion of the general public.
Passports and Visas
asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs the amounts charged for passport visas by the Republics of Latvia and Lithuania, and Esthonia, specifying in each case the periods of time for which these visas are valid; and what steps the British Government is taking, in the interests of trade, to induce foreign Governments to reduce these charges to a minimum?
The charges are as follows: Latvia, £2; Lithuania, 10s.; Esthonia, 10s. I understand that in each case the visa is valid only for the one journey. It is hoped that foreign Governments will adopt the scale of charges for visas recommended by the Conference held in Paris under the auspices of the League of Nations, which the British Government have agreed to do. Should, however, foreign countries continue to charge fees in excess of such scale, His Majesty's Government reserves the right of charging a reciprocal fee to nationals of such countries.
When was the price for the two latter visas changed? Latvia is £2, but only three weeks ago Esthonia and Lithuania were charging £1 and £1 10s., respectively, which is extraordinarily high, having regard to the inflated currency?
I cannot say off-hand.
Will these reciprocal sums be charged at once?
I could not say that.
League of Nations (Japan)
asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs what interpretation is officially placed upon Article X of the League of Nations Covenant if that Article does not make it necessary for Great Britain to intervene on behalf of Japan in maintaining her territorial integrity, as denned at the time of the creation of the said Covenant, as against, the claim preferred by China to portions of the Japanese Empire as at present constituted?
So far as His Majesty's Government are aware no such claim by China as that attributed to her by the hon. Member in the last part of the question has been made; consequently the considerations referred to in the earlier part of the question do not arise and in the circumstances there seems no need for a pronouncement with regard to Article X of the Covenant of the League of Nations.
Will my hon. Friend consider the propriety of issuing a new edition of the Covenant of the League, starring those Articles which may be presumed to mean what they say?
Revolutionary Propaganda
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to a leaflet, entitled "Proclaim the General Strike," published by the National Workers' Committee, in which it is stated that the victory of the working classes can only be assured by revolutionary action; and if he proposes to take any steps to stop their circulation?
The question of proceeding against the printer of this leaflet, if he can be found, will be considered. The police are seizing copies of the leaflets when they find them.
Will the hon. Gentleman consult M. Krassin, who is now in this country, as to the best method of counter-revolutionary propaganda?
I will convey that suggestion to my right hon. Friend.
asked the Home Secretary whether he has seen a leaflet entitled, "Which Side are you, Workers or Capitalists?" published by the Department of Soviet Propaganda, which is finding its way to this country; and, as such leaflet is a direct incitement to a Bolshevist revolution, what steps can he take to deal with such leaflets?
The leaflet in question is one of those printed and published by the Department of Soviet Propaganda before the signature of the Russian Trading Agreement. When found by the police it is seized and destroyed.
Will the hon. Gentleman get the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown as to whether a prosecution could take place?
What efforts is the Soviet Government making to recall these leaflets?
I cannot answer that question.
Has the attention of the Leader of the House been drawn to these most infamous pamphlets, and will the Government take the opinion of the Law Officers as to a prosecution?
My attention has not been drawn to the particular leaflet mentioned in the question, but I will see that the hon. Member's suggestion is conveyed to the Home Secretary, who is the authority primarily concerned in the matter.
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to a leaflet published by Kirkwood and Company, of Glasgow, headed All Hail the Scottish Communist Republic, in which Scots are referred to as bloody tools of the English against our brother Celts of Erin, and urging that workers should work for a Communist Republic with a wage-earners' dictatorship; and whether any steps have been taken against the author or publishers?
My attention was called last October to the leaflet referred to, and a careful investigation was made into its publication and circulation in Scotland. I was of opinion that the result of the inquiry did not warrant criminal proceedings, and gave directions accordingly.
Irish Cattle (Import Restrictions)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Agriculture whether any trace of foot-and-mouth disease has yet been discovered in Ireland; and if he will take immediate steps to remove the restrictions on the importation of Irish live-stock into this country?
The Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland report that no case of foot-and-mouth disease has been discovered in Ireland after tracing contacts to the animals from Ireland which were visibly affected with the disease soon after their arrival at ports in. Great Britain. It has been decided to modify existing restrictions as from midnight Thursday, the 4th May. Fat animals for purposes of slaughter within 72 hours will then be admitted at Glasgow, Manchester, Bristol (Cumberland Basin), and at Birkenhead as soon as disinfection is completed. Stores will be admitted at certain ports for isolation for seven days at the ports, and thereafter will be licensed to premises for a further seven days' detention, which must be in enclosed yards or buildings. The Irish Department has been notified.
Allied Conference (German Reparation)
Can any statement be made as to the proceedings of the Supreme Council?
I am able to inform the House that the Supreme Council this morning discussed the military measures which would be required for the occupation of the Ruhr—if that occupation became necessary—and agreed upon them. They further discussed, and agreed to study more precisely, naval measures of coercion, if military measures should be invoked and should not be sufficient. The execution of any of these measures is dependent upon the refusal of Germany to comply with the demands which the Allied Governments may present to them for the execution of the Treaty of Versailles. As regards the final demands to be made to the Germans in respect of the question of reparations, the Allies have, as I informed the House last night, arrived at an agreement in substance. The Drafting Committee has been putting that agreement into form this morning during the sitting of the Council, and the few points which remain for consideration are, I think, actually being discussed by the Council at this moment.
Will the Leader of the House say whether the Government have received, officially, the German counter-proposals, which the Prime Minister informed us about on Thursday?
No, Sir; no proposals have been received, officially, by His Majesty's Government.
Can the Leader of the House say whether there is any time limit for the refusal or acceptance of the Allied proposals?
Most undoubtedly there will be a time limit.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether on Thursday, when the Foreign Office Vote is taken, either himself or the Prime Minister will be in a position to make a full statement on the subject?
That is the reason why Thursday has been devoted to the Foreign Office Vote—in order that, in the first place, a statement may be made, and, in the second place, if the House desires it, that a discussion may take place. It is obvious that no full statement such as is desired by the hon. and gallant Member can be made until a full decision has been reached.
May I ask whether the figures stated in the paper this morning is correct and official that the total reparation demand is £6,600,000,000?
I hesitate a little to answer without notice questions about figures which are reported to have appeared in the newspapers. I read my papers like other people, and I find I get an entirely novel view from the papers of proceedings in which I have myself taken part. The figure of £6,600,000,000, if I remember correctly, is not a figure emanating from the Supreme Council which is sitting at this moment, but is merely a repetition of the amount due by Germany under the Treaty as ascertained by the Reparations Committee.
Before the subject closes, I wish to ask whether any steps are being taken to mobilise the British Navy; and also whether any expenditure has been incurred, or will be incurred, before Thursday's Debate?
The answer to all the questions is in the negative.
Business of the House
I wish to ask the Leader of the House what the Government propose to do in regard to raising a Debate on the Colwyn Report?
The Government propose to move the Adjournment of the House, in order to give an opportunity for debating the Colwyn Report.
Motion made, and Question put, "That the proceedings on the Second Reading of the Housing Bill be exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House).—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]
The House divided: Ayes, 229; Noes, 40.
Division No. 94.] AYES. [3.57 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton) Jameson, J. Gordon Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Jephcott, A. R. Armitage, Robert Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Jesson, C. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Jodrell, Neville Paul Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Dockrell, Sir Maurice Johnstone, Joseph Balfour, George (Hampstead) Doyle, N. Grattan Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke) Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Barlow, Sir Montague Elveden, Viscount King, Captain Henry Douglas Barnett, Major R. W. Falcon, Captain Michael Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Barnston, Major Harry Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Barrand, A. R. Farquharson, Major A. C. Lane-Fox, G. R. Beauchamp, Sir Edward Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) FitzRoy, Captain Hon. E. A. Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Fraser, Major Sir Keith Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h) Frece, Sir Walter de Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish Gange, E. Stanley Lonsdale, James Rolston Bethell, Sir John Henry Gardner, Ernest Lorden, John William Betterton, Henry B. Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge) Lowe, Sir Francis William Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Lyle, C. E. Leonard Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Glyn, Major Ralph M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P. Blair, Sir Reginald Goff, Sir R. Park Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray Blake, Sir Francis Douglas Grant, James A. Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) McMicking, Major Gilbert Bowles, Colonel H. F. Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Greig, Colonel James William Macquisten, F. A. Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E. Magnus, Sir Philip Brassey, H. L. C. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Breese, Major Charles E. Gwynne, Rupert S. Mallalieu, F. W. Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Brittain, Sir Harry Hall, Captain Sir Douglas Bernard Marriott, John Arthur Ransome Broad, Thomas Tucker Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Mitchell, William Lane Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Llv'p'l,W.D'by) Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Morris, Richard Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Morrison, Hugh Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Mosley, Oswald Butcher, Sir John George Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen) Casey, T. W. Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Cautley, Henry S. Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Nail, Major Joseph Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Higham, Charles Frederick Neal, Arthur Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.) Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Hills, Major John Waller Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Cheyne, Sir William Watson Hinds, John Nicholl, Commander Sir Edward Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Clough, Robert Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Coats, Sir Stuart Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn'n,W.) Nield, Sir Herbert Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington) Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Hopkins, John W. W. Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Conway, Sir W. Martin Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L. Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Howard, Major S. G. Parker, James Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Hurd, Percy A. Pearce, Sir William Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Pennefather, De Fonblanque Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Perkins, Walter Frank Curzon, Captain Viscount James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Pilditcn, Sir Philip Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Prescott, Major W. H. Stanton, Charles B. Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Purchase, H. G. Starkey, Captain John R. Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.) Randles, Sir John S. Steel, Major S. Strang Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Raper, A. Baldwin Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Ratcliffe, Henry Butler Stevens, Marshall Wilson, Capt. A. S. (Holderness) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Stewart, Gershom Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Strauss, Edward Anthony Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbrdge) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Sturrock, J. Leng Wilson, Lieut.-Col. M. J. (Richmond) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Wilson Fox, Henry Rodger, A. K. Sykes, Colonel Sir A. J. (Knutsford) Wise, Frederick Roundell, Colonel R. F. Taylor, J. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Thomas-Stanford, Charles Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Yeo, Sir Alfred William Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Townley, Maximilian G. Younger, Sir George Seddon, J. A. Turton, Edmund Russborough Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Wallace, J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Simm, M. T. Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy. Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Stanier, Captain Sir Beville Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H.
NOES. Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Sexton, James Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Kennedy, Thomas Sitch, Charles H. Cairns, John Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R. Kiley, James D. Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) Lunn, William Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Gillis, William Morgan, Major D. Watts Waterson, A. E. Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Wedgwood, Colonel J. C. Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Newbould, Alfred Ernest White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Grundy, T. W. Raffan, Peter Wilson Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Hartshorn, Vernon Redmond, Captain William Archer Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes) Rendall, Athelstan Wilson, James (Dudley) Hirst, G. H. Robertson, John Irving, Dan Rose, Frank H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. T. Griffiths and Mr. Hogge.
Bill Presented
Liquor Traffic Local Veto (England and Wales) Bill,
"to enable the parliamentary electors in prescribed areas by direct vote to prohibit the issue within such areas of licences for the sale of intoxicating liquors and also to prohibit the common sale or supply of such liquors in licensed premises, clubs, or elsewhere within such areas," presented by Mr. RAFFAN; supported by Mr. Broad, Mr. Hancock, Mr. Kenyon, Mr. Galbraith, Mr. John Murray, Mr. Wintringham, Mr. Aneurin Williams, Mr. Sidney Robinson, and Mr. Trevelyan Thomson; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 92.]
Message from the Lords
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to make provision in England and Wales for annulling marriage in certain cases; for presuming the death of a husband or a wife in certain circumstances; for placing the two sexes in a position of equality in respect of the dissolution of marriage; and for amending and simplifying procedure in matrimonial causes and extending the grounds of divorce." [Matrimonial Causes Bill [ Lords. ]
Selection (Standing Committees)
Scottish Standing Committee
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That the following Members representing Scottish Constituencies are appointed to serve on the Standing Committee for the consideration of all Public Bills relating exclusively to Scotland and committed to a Standing Committee:—Rear-Admiral Adair, Mr. Adamson, Mr. Asquith, Sir Robert Bal-four, Mr. George Barnes, Mr. Charles Barrie, Captain Wedgwood Benn, Mr. James Brown, Lieut.-Colonel Buchanan, Sir Robert Home, Sir William Watson Cheyne, Sir Godfrey Collins, Mr. Churchill, Mr. Morison, Mr. D. M. Cowan, Sir Henry Cowan, Sir Henry Craik, Captain Elliot, Mr. Ford, Mr. James Gardiner, Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. Gilmour, Major Glyn, Mr. Duncan Graham, Mr. William Graham, Colonel Greig, Sir Leicester Harmsworth, Major Henderson, Mr. Hogge, Sir Harry Hope, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Hope, Mr. John Deans Hope, Lieut.-General Sir Aylmer Hunter Weston, Mr. Jameson, Mr. Johnstone, Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Kidd, Mr. Bonar Law, Mr. Murray Macdonald, Sir Halford Mackinder, Mr. Robert McLaren, Sir Donald Maclean, Mr. Neil Maclean, Mr. Macleod, Major McMicking, Mr. Macpherson, Mr. Macquisten, Mr. Munro, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur Murray, Mr. Gideon Murray, Dr. Murray, Major William Murray, Mr. Nelson, Mr. Pratt, Sir William Raeburn, Mr. Robertson, Mr. Rodger, Mr. Rose, Mr. MacCallum Scott, Mr. Alexander Shaw, Mr. William Shaw, Mr. C. D. Murray, Colonel Sir Alexander Sprot, Mr. Sturrock, Sir William Sutherland, Mr. Taylor, Mr. Frederick Thomson, Sir William Mitchell-Thomson, Mr. Wallace, Sir Archibald Williamson, Mr. Wilkie, Major Mackenzie Wood, Mr. William Young, and Sir George Younger.
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Ten Members to the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills (in respect of the Protection of Animals (Scotland) Act (1912) Amendment Bill): Mr. Armitage, Colonel Burn, Mr. Finney, Mr. Gange, Mr. John Jones, Mr. Lindsay, Mr. Henry McLaren, Brigadier-General Palmer, Major Steel, and Mr. Trevelyan Thomson.
Standing Committee D
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee: That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee D (in respect of tie Protection of Animals Act (1911) Amendment Bill and the Diseases of Animals Act (1910) Amendment Bill): Sir John Baird, Sir Frederick Banbury, Sir Thomas Bennett, Colonel Burn, Sir John Butcher, Mr. Alfred Davies, Major David Davies, Mr. Evan Davies, Mr. Gardiner, Lieut.-Colon el Sir Raymond Greene, Major Howard, Mr. Lindsay, Mr. Newbould, Mr. Spoor, and Sir Alfred Yeo.
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee D (in respect of the Local Rates (Increase Prevention) Bill): Sir William Ryland Adkins, Major Barnes, Mr. Cautley, Mr. Neville Chamberlain, Lieut.-Colonel Croft, Mr. Charles Edwards, Colonel Greig, Mr. Lane-Fox, Mr. Myers, Mr. Pretyman, Lieut.-Colonel Royds, Mr. Seddon, Mr. Simm, Mr. James Wilson, and Sir Kingsley Wood.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
IMPORTATION OF PLUMAGE (PROHIBITION) (No. 2) BILL
Order for Second Reading upon Thursday read, and discharged.—Bill withdrawn.
Orders of the Day
Mr. Speaker's Retirement
[KING'S ANSWER TO ADDRESS.]
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
4.0 P.M.
I beg to move,
"That the annual sum of £4,000 net be granted to His Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the said annuity to commence and take effect upon the day upon which the Right Honourable James William Lowther, late Speaker of the House of Commons, ceased to hold the office of Speaker of the House of Commons, to be settled in the most beneficial manner upon and to continue during the life of him the said Right Honourable James William Lowther."
On behalf of the Prime Minister, who is unavoidably detained elsewhere on public business, I move this Motion which stands in his name. It is in accordance with precedent, and I am quite certain that it is in accordance with the general spirit of the Committee.
I beg to move, to leave out "£4,000" and to insert instead thereof, "£1,000."
I move this Amendment with no desire in any way to belittle the magnificent services rendered to the State by the late Speaker. No Member of this House has had more reason to admire his generous and impartial treatment, and I hope the House will not believe that it is from any conception of personal hostility that I move this Amendment. But I suggest, if the Government were looking for a time in which they were likely to hold themselves up for a great deal of criticism in connection with a proposal of this kind, that they could not have chosen a more unfortunate occasion. To-day 3,000,000 of the working classes are walking the streets in search of employment. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] The causes are easily to be discovered by those who ask the question. We may have our differences of opinion as to the causes, but we certainly have no difference of opinion as to the effects, and starving men and women are not inclined at this particular period to look with any great degree of favour upon proposals which will have the ultimate result simply of grazing the fat sow. To give to those who do not need it is not carrying out the principles of economy which we have heard so often debated in this House, and, when we have had preached to us so continuously from the Benches opposite and around us the doctrine that this is not the time for spending the national treasure, but is the time when we ought to watch every penny jealously and be careful of the resources of the State, it is playing too much upon the people's patience to make a proposal of this kind. We are told that there is no money in the State to deal with great questions of national necessity, and legislation is being held back because there is no money to deal with great matters of urgent and pressing importance.
We are telling very large sections of the workers that they will have to go back to conditions of living less advantageous, economically, than those prevailing previous to 1914. We are telling them that in order that we may hold our own in the industrial struggles of to-day they must be prepared to accept lower wages and a reduction in their standard of life, and that if they are not prepared to accept those lower wages and that reduced standard of life then this country will suffer severely and our trade will be brought to a standstill. If those arguments be correct, then the sacrifice ought to be mutual. If the trade and commerce of the country cannot be upheld without a reduction in the standard of living of the common people, then this is not the time to introduce proposals which mean giving to those who are already well placed huge sums of money out of the public Exchequer. I therefore make no apology whatever for opposing this Grant. I believe that the sum named in my Amendment is quite adequate to meet the situation. A thousand pounds a year is a decent pension as things go, and I suggest that no Member of the House could go into any great working-class constituency and justify the extravagant demand mentioned in the Resolution in face of the great campaign for economy now being conducted throughout the length and breadth of Great Britain. I am not going m any way whatever to minimise the services that have been rendered. I am prepared to pay homage in the proper way to the right hon. Gentleman who has given those services, but, when there is an opportunity, this House ought to practise the economy which it preaches, so long as it is not doing any injury to any person or interest. Therefore, without taking up too much time, I make my protest, in the hope that those who preach economy outside will show, by carrying the Amendment which I have moved, that they are not doing any public injury or belittling the services which this great man has rendered to the nation, but are carrying out those principles in which they profess to believe, and registering their desire for economy wherever it is possible to secure it.
The Leader of the House said the Motion he has proposed is according to precedent. It is according to precedent, but he well knows that £4,000 a year, free of Income Tax and Super-tax, is a very different thing from—
If the words of the Resolution have given rise to a misapprehension, I ought to explain them, although I do not wish to interrupt. The proposed grant to the late Speaker is subject to both Income Tax and Super-tax.
That does away with a good deal of my argument, and the right hon. Gentleman is acting, in proposing this Motion, strictly according to precedent. £4,000 a year was the amount proposed to the late Mr. Speaker Gully, and the same, I believe, to Mr. Speaker Peel when he retired; but, if he is acting according to precedent, we on these benches must also act according to precedent. Without personalities coming into the question at all, we wish to deal with this question just as our predecessors dealt with the previous questions, in order to set an example for the future. When Mr. Speaker Gully retired, I think it was the late Member for Merthyr Tydvil, Mr. Keir Hardie, who moved, exactly as my hon. Friend has moved today, to reduce the pension from £4,000 to £1,000 a year, and the Labour party of that day went solidly into the Lobby in favour of the reduction. The same steps, I believe, were taken when Mr. Speaker Peel retired, but the conditions in England in 1905 and in 1894 were very different from the conditions in England to-day. Then we were a rich country, and in those days Income Tax was at 1s. or 1s. 2d. in the £, while now we have an Income Tax of 6s., and a debt ten times as large as we had in those days. Now there is far more urgent need for economy than there was in those days, and I think we can fairly ask to have this pledge of economy, this definite step towards a more economical handling of our public finance. I am glad that many of us on these benches are, at any rate, laying down the principle for the future. After the protests we have raised on every Speaker's retirement against these exorbitant pensions, we shall, at any rate, be pledged ourselves to see that in the future Speakers who retire do not receive these excessive pensions.
It is all very well to go on according to precedent, but the circumstances of the world to-day break all precedents, and I believe it would have been universally accepted, if the Government had broken precedent and introduced a more moderate pension, that the Government meant no slur and no slight on the late Speaker, whose services have been invaluable to this House, but that they were acting in view of their promises for public economy. I beg hon. Members on this occasion in the first place not to think for one moment that we are attacking the late Speaker, but to realise that unless we get a definite proof that economy is the first principle of the Government, it weakens our hands in dealing with our constituents and the Government, and it makes it impossible to go on to public platforms preaching economy with examples such as this before our eyes of excessive generosity, where generosity is due, but where generosity has been given more amply and more thoroughly by the words of the various speakers on Mr. Speaker's retirement last week. I beg the Committee to vote in this Division with a single eye to the question of public economy.
I regret that the two hon. Gentlemen should have thought it necessary respectively to move and support the Amendment which they have proposed. If it were to be moved at all, I think it will be conceded that they have supported it in language as little offensive to the general sense of the Committee as any language could be, except that it is distasteful, I am sure, to the great majority of hon. Members, who less than a week ago passed, nemine contradicente, a Resolution praying His Majesty to confer upon our late Speaker some signal mark of his Royal favour, and assuring His Majesty—I quote the words of the Resolution—
"that whatever expense His Majesty shall think fit to be incurred upon that account, this House will make good the same."
It must be distasteful to a House which carried that Resolution nemine contradicente to quibble when the actual provision is proposed. What I have to say, I think I can say equally without offence, and equally briefly. The hon. and gallant Gentleman who spoke last spoke specially for the party he has just joined. He associated himself with their past protests, and he undertook—
I am always ready to associate myself with Keir Hardie.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman has all the enthusiasm and emotion of a convert. He associated himself with their past protests, and declared to the Committee what is going to be their future action. He based himself on the ground of economy, and upon the urgent necessity for the House itself to show to the public that in what immediately concerns ourselves we practise the economy which we preach to others. Is that the party doctrine held without exception, and applicable to all matters? I am under the impression that the Government has been pressed by several questions coming from the same party to express their intention as regards the payment of ourselves.
On the plea of necessity, which cannot be urged in this case.
I do not want to dwell upon that, but let us realise at once that unselfishness is more easily applicable to others than to ourselves. We find it easier to sacrifice the late Speaker, and to make him an illustration of our zeal for economy than we do to make application of that same rigid economy to our particular selves. I should not have said that had it not been for the particular line of argument adopted by the hon. and gallant Member, which seemed to me, and still seems to me, to make that protest necessary. I leave the speech of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, and come to the merits of the Motion. The hon. Member who moved the Amendment said that this may have been a proper sum to grant in recognition of the services of a great Speaker in past years, but that in these years, when economy is specially imperative, it becomes excessive. Let me observe that the value to the recipient of the pension which was paid in past years is not more than half at the present time what it was in those earlier cases.
It is not a half.
I keep within the mark, but I do not really justify the Motion on these grounds. I take issue with the two hon. Members who have spoken as to where economy can be wisely sought. The last place in which you can wisely exercise economy is in the adequate remuneration of your public servants, and the adequate recognition of great services performed by them. That is the last place where you can afford to exercise it. That is not economy; it is niggardliness, and it is not in the interests of the public that you should either underpay existing servants of the State, or that you should grudge reward of great services of those who have been in the service of the State or of this House, and have retired from that service. I am as conscious as anyone in this House of the great need for economy, but every reduction of expenditure is not economy. Economy, to be real, must be wisely and suitably applied, and it is not a wise and true economy, or in the lasting interests of the State, that we should haggle and boggle about the reward which it has been customary to pay to a retiring Speaker, and that in the case of one whom we all recognise as having been pre-eminently successful in his office, as having held the confidence of the House in a pre-eminent degree, and rendered, in times of difficulty and anxiety, immense service to this House, and, by preserving the dignity and decorum and freedom of this House, immense service to his country.
May I say one word from the point of view of a member of the Independent Liberal party in support of this Government Motion? To my mind the opposition is ungracious, it is invidious, and, from the trade union point of view, ill-considered and, I will go so far as to say, intellectually contemptible. How can any member of a trade union object to the proposal of the Government to pay what is, in their own phraseology, the trade union rate of pension? The Government would be blacklegs if at this moment they withheld this customary tribute to a retiring Speaker. I only wish to say, in support of the words of the Leader of the House, that of all ill-conceived notions of economy, any economy which relates to either reduction of salary, or authority, or of retiring pension of one who holds the exalted office of Speaker in this House, upon which the freedom of the people of this country depends, is the worst considered and the worst devised proposal that could be put forward. I hope that such opposition as there was on this side of the House against this proposal of the Government may be withdrawn, and that the splendid dignity of the proceedings as we moved our vote of thanks to the Speaker last week and pledged ourselves as a united House to this Motion last week may be preserved in to-day's Assembly. It is the duty of every Member of this House, for the sake of the honour and credit of the House, that the Motion should be carried unanimously.
I desire to associate myself with those who have been described as "intellectually contemptible" It is difficult to enter into a debate of this sort, because, apparently, hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side will not recognise that one can approach this question quite in the abstract, apart from the late Speaker altogether, and purely from the point of view of principle. The Leader of the House made a remark, which was certainly not up to his logical standard, when he tried to retort upon Members of this House, particularly those who are sitting on these benches, that it was a selfish proceeding on our part to ask for due recompense for the service that we render, or strive to render, as will enable us to subsist decently. For those services we are not asking for a pension after we have given up service. In that case it would probably be permissible to compare the disparity of the pension to be awarded. But in this case we are not asking for a pension at all; and, secondly, we are only asking, from the point of view of honest, straightforward men, a sufficient reward for the services we are endeavouring to render to the community, and although hon. Members opposite may think we do not render service, there are millions of people outside who know that we do. That is the answer to those who try to controvert our point of view. I have long taken up this position, and I have had as long an experience of public life as most men in this House. I entertain it with regard to men whom I hold in the highest esteem, and whose personal friendship I hold to-day. I merely say that to show that these things can be approached from the point of view of principle, and it ought not to be twisted round in any sense to make it appear as though those of us who last week joined in the well-merited meed of praise that we gave to the late Speaker on account of high and esteemed services, were going back from our then honestly expressed opinion.
We are all looked upon, and at times urged to consider ourselves, as members of a common human family. All Members of this House know that, in theory at any rate, we are all held to be brothers and sisters of a community, and surely if a man has capacity greater than another, and renders the capacity that he has, he is in effect rendering no more service to the community than the man with less capacity who also gives the best he has. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I can quite understand now where the intellectually contemptible people are. They are now disclosing themselves. No man can give more than he possesses, and, as most hon. Members profess to be Christians, I will call to their minds the parable of the Widow's Mite. It is In recognition of the communal feeling that exists, and which ought to exist to a very much greater degree, that ought to level up and level down the Various customs of society, both from the point of view of payment for services rendered, and for pensions after the services have ceased, which may perhaps be considered as deferred payment, and until every member of the community, brothers and sisters of yours, as claimed in all your theories, has at disposal a sufficiency of the material needs of life to give a decent, comfortable, human existence, without which an intellectual life and a spiritual life become impossible, we have no right as a community to pay these high salaries and high pensions to those who, after all, have not given more than more humble members of society.
Question put, "That '£4,000' stand part of the Question."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 248; Noes, 31.
Division No. 95.] AYES. [4.37 p.m. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Magnus, Sir Philip Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Elveden, Viscount Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Ainsworth, Captain Charles Evans, Ernest Mallalieu, F. W. Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James Falcon, Captain Michael Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Marriott, John Arthur Ransome Atkey, A. R. Farquharson, Major A. C. Middlebrook, Sir William Baird, Sir John Lawrence Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Mitchell, William Lane Balfour, George (Hampstead) FitzRoy, Captain Hon. E. A. Molson, Major John Elsdale Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M. Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Frece, Sir Walter de Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Gange, E. Stanley Morris, Richard Barnett, Major R. W. Gardner, Ernest Morrison, Hugh Barnston, Major Harry Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Barrand, A. R. Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen) Barrie, Charles Coupar Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross Beauchamp, Sir Edward Glyn, Major Ralph Murray, John (Leeds, West) Beckett, Hon. Gervase Goff, Sir R. Park Neal, Arthur Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Grant, James A. Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Nicholl, Commander Sir Edward Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h) Greig, Colonel James William Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell Gretton, Colonel John Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Nield, Sir Herbert Bethell, Sir John Henry Gwynne, Rupert S. Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Betterton, Henry B. Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'I.W.D'by) Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L. Bigland, Alfred Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Parker, James Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool) Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Pearce, Sir William Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Blair, Sir Reginald Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Perkins, Walter Frank Blake, Sir Francis Douglas Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Pilditch, Sir Philip Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil) Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Bowles, Colonel H. F. He wart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Higham, Charles Frederick Prescott, Major W. H. Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Purchase, H. G. Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Hills, Major John Waller Randles, Sir John S. Brassey, H. L. C. Hinds, John Raper, A. Baldwin Breese, Major Charles E. Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Ratcliffe, Henry Butler Broad, Thomas Tucker Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn'n,W.) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington) Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hopkins, John W. W. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Butcher, Sir John George Howard, Major S. G. Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford) Cairns, John Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Rodger, A. K. Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Hurd, Percy A. Rose, Frank H. Cautley, Henry S. Hurst. Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Norwood) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm.,W.) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Jameson, J. Gordon Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Cheyne, Sir William Watson Jephcott, A. R. Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W. Jesson, C. Seddon, J. A. Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Jodrell, Neville Paul Sexton, James Clough, Robert Johnstone, Joseph Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke) Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Collins, Sir G. P. (Greenock) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Simm, M. T. Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Conway, Sir W. Martin Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Stanier, Captain Sir Beville Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) King, Captain Henry Douglas Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Stanton, Charles B. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Knight, Major E. A. (Kidderminster) Starkey, Captain John R. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lane-Fox, G. R. Steel, Major S. Strang Croft. Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Curzon, Captain Viscount Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Stevens, Marshall Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton) Lloyd-Greame, Sir p. Stewart, Gershom Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Lonsdale, James Rolston Strauss, Edward Anthony Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Lorden, John William Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Lowe, Sir Francis William Sutherland, Sir William Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Lyle, C. E. Leonard Sykes, Colonel Sir A. J. (Knutsford)- Dawes, James Arthur Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Taylor, J. Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P. Terrell, George, (Wilts, Chippenham) Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray Thomas-Stanford, Charles Dockrell, Sir Maurice Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Doyle, N. Grattan McMicking, Major Gilbert Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Du Pre, Colonel William Baring McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Townley, Maximilian G. Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) Macquisten, F. A. Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Watson, Captain John Bertrand Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Wilson, Lieut.-Col. M. J. (Richmond) Younger, Sir George Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V. Wilson-Fox, Henry Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Wise, Frederick TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Mr. McCurdy and Colonel Leslie Wilson. Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.) Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Yeo, Sir Alfred William
NOES. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Holmes, J. Stanley Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) Irving, Dan Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Casey, T. W. Kennedy, Thomas Waterson, A. E. Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R. Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Gillis, William Lunn, William Wignall, James Glanville, Harold James Morgan, Major D. Watts Wilson, James (Dudley) Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Newbould, Alfred Ernest Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Rendall, Athelstan Grundy, T. W. Robertson, John TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes) Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Mr. J. Jones and Colonel Wedgwood. Hirst, G. H. Sitch, Charles H. Hogge, James Myles Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved,
"That the annual sum of £4,000 net be granted to His Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the said annuity to commence and take effect upon the day upon which the Right Honourable James William Lowther, late Speaker of the House of Commons, ceased to hold the office of Speaker of the House of Commons, to be settled in the most beneficial manner upon and to continue during the life of him the said Right Honourable James William Lowther."
Resolution to be reported To-morrow.
Railway Agreements (Colwyn Report)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now Adjourn."—[ Colonel Leslie Wilson. ]
The course which has been taken this afternoon in moving the Adjournment of the House has been taken in order to enable the Government to redeem the promise which they made in the course of the Debate which took place a while ago on the Supplementary Estimate for the Ministry of Transport. The Government then undertook to give the House the opportunity of debating the Colwyn Report before a settlement was made with the railway companies. If hon. Members will recall the occasion on which that promise was made, I think they will realise that the Report of the Colwyn Committee is a matter of serious consideration to this House. We were then engaged in voting the sum of £20,000,000 required to make up the deficit on the working of the railways during the preceding period. That sum was only a portion of the, amount required. It is necessary to pass a Consolidated Fund Bill for the specific purpose before handing to the railway companies that very large sum of money.
I wish to recall to the House also the statements on the Budget statement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer this year. Hon. Members who have looked at the final balance sheet will remember there were shown two surpluses amounting in all to £176,000,000, which may, or may not be, available for reduction of debt. A foot-note was attached to the effect that the amount of surplus available for such purposes would depend entirely upon the agreement which may be made with the railway companies. I bring these facts before the notice of the House because I believe they really raise the true issue before us now; that is the issue between the taxpayers and the railway companies. The question to be finally determined is the amount of money that must pass from the pockets of the taxpayers into the pockets of the railway companies. That is the issue that arises on this Debate and must be determined by this House. I understand that in the course of the Debate some statement will be made by the Minister of Transport as to what action, if any, the Government propose to take on the Report of the Colwyn Commission. So far as I am personally concerned, I am entirely without any idea as to what that action is to be. Therefore, I am precluded now, and will be by the procedure of this House, at all events on this occasion, from debating any statement that may be made.
Under these circumstances, I think the way in which I can be of most assistance to the House—and I would ask hon. Members to believe that my main desire in speaking on this subject is to be of assistance to the House—and put hon. Members in possession of the facts is to tell, as briefly as I can, the story of the Colwyn Commission, and put the points of the Report and recommendations of it before this House as concisely as may he. The Committee originated out of the financial situation created by the agreements with the railways. For two or three years very large sums have appeared upon the Estimates as being necessary to make up the deficiency on the net receipts of the railway companies, that deficiency having been guaranteed by the Government. It was bound to happen that the recurrence of these large sums should occasion comment and criticism. These comments and these criticisms eventually led to the request for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into these agreements, to discover what they were, and the nature of the responsibilities and liabilities attaching to them. That Committee was appointed. It was not a Select Committee, but a Departmental Committee. My experience of Departmental Committees is not great, but there does not appear to me to be very much difference between the composition of this Departmental Committee and that of a Select Committee. I am anxious to secure for the Report of this Committee the utmost credit to which it is entitled, and I want to comment for just a moment or two on the composition of the Committee, for outside this House there has been a great deal of criticism of the Committee and of its Report.
If we were to accept some of the pictures presented, one would imagine this was a Committee whose Report was entirely unworthy of acceptance on account of the composition of the Committee. It has been represented as being a Committee packed by creatures of the Minister, who were only there to proceed in such a way as suited the Minister, and to make a report and such recommendations as would assist his policy. I think the best answer to that criticism is just to glance for a moment at the composition of the Committee. It was presided over by a Member of the other House (Lord Colwyn) who has been in times past the President of very important Commissions, amongst others, the Income Tax Commission. On the Committee itself, with two exceptions only, the members were entirely Members of this House, drawn from the different parties. There was my right hon. Friend the Member for the Camlachie Division of Glasgow (Sir H. Mackinder), the hon. Member for the Stretford Division (Sir T. Robinson), the hon. and gallant Member for Greenock (Sir G. Collins), and the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. Graham) and myself. It is perfectly clear that the mere enumeration of those names is sufficient to set aside the possibility of the concerted action suggested, for we had members of all sides, of opposing views and opinions, drawn from the various parties in the House, and it is not necessary, having mentioned those names, to endeavour to dispute such an assertion. After hearing those names, I am quite sure the House would agree that the suggestion that has been put forward is an absurd one and may be discounted as being not in the slightest degree serious. The only other two members of the Committee were Sir Hardman Lever, who is in the Ministry of Transport as the representative of the Treasury—and he is there because of the desire, and, in fact, the insistence of this House at the time when the Transport Bill was passed—and Sir Peter Rylands, the Chairman of the British Federation of Industries. That gentleman is probably the last man in the world who could be expected to take a view antagonistic to the interests which are associated with the shareholders of the railway companies. That, then, is the composition of the Committee.
It is that Committee so composed which has made a unanimous report. It is true that my hon. Friend for Central Edinburgh (Mr. Graham) and myself made certain reservations. As to my own reservation I propose to say just a word before I conclude. But what is before the House is not the reservation of any Member, or a Minority Report, but the unanimous, report and recommendations of the whole of the Committee. Having said so much about the origin and composition of the Committee, may I say a word or two about its proceedings? An attempt has been made to represent the proceedings of this Committee as being in the nature of hole-and-corner proceed- ings, from which it was desired to exclude the light of publicity; proceedings marked by great secrecy, in which only one side was heard, and in which the other side did not get a fair opportunity of presenting its case. It is true that the Committee decided to sit in private, and to hear the evidence in private. What, however, actuated the Committee was not a desire to give undue preference to one side or the other; it was the feeling that in view of the circumstances, and the interest taken in the negotiations—and the delicate character of the negotiations—it was not advisable that day by day there should be a report of the proceedings and of the evidence taken. That was a view in which the Committee, I think, was almost, if not entirely, unanimous. That was the sole reason that guided it, the desire to secure an interrupted, quiet, calm, deliberative opportunity of considering the matter.
5.0 P.M.
Just one word upon the suggestion that the railway companies did not have a fair opportunity of putting their case. I do not think the railway companies themselves would say so, and if it were said, I do not think it would be in accordance with the facts. The railway companies were asked to present their case. They felt, in the first place, that owing to the possibility of other enquiries and other proceedings being taken that they ought not to come forward in a formal way to give evidence and make a statement. That was their first conclusion. On the Committee we were extremely desirous that we should hear everything the companies might have to say on the subject-matter we had to consider, and we approached them again to find out whether there was any way in which their views could be laid before the Committee. The result was a meeting between some Members of the Committee and the two most prominent figures in the negotiating part of the railway side, Sir Herbert Walker and Sir Alexander Kaye Butterworth. There was a free discussion as to the situation, and ultimately the Committee put before Sir Herbert Walker, who was the medium between the Committee and the railway companies, a category of certain matters upon which we wanted information.
In the end the result was that Sir A. Butterworth came before the Committee. He was before us for four days. He came before us as an individual and gave us the information which we asked for. The evidence has been published and it is open to any hon. Member of the House or the public to read. I want to take this opportunity of paying a tribute to that evidence, not only to Sir A. Butter-worth's ability, but we found him a frank and fearless witness who did not hesitate at all to give us the fullest possible answers to all the questions we put to him. I want to make this one comment upon his evidence. It may be, and probably will be said in the course of this Debate, that he was not there as the representative of the railway companies, and was not authorised to appear as their representative or negotiate for them, and that whatever he said must be taken as his own opinion, and not prejudicing the ease for the railway companies. I think that may be accepted, but side by side with that we must remember that during the whole period of railway control Sir A. Butterworth was in the very forefront of all railway negotiations. I believe at the outbreak of War, as far as the North Eastern Railway Company was concerned, my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Geddes) was himself on the Joint Committee of Railway Managers, but when the War broke out and vital negotiations were taking place my right hon. Friend was called to York and Sir A. Butterworth took his place and up to the end of the War he was one of the principal negotiators, sometimes acting with two or three others, but on one vital agreement he was the sole negotiator between the Government and the railway companies. I emphasise that to show the value of his evidence and to show that as far as the railway companies position was to be put if there was a man capable of putting it, then it was Sir A. Butter-worth who appeared before us, and for four days the Committee went exhaustively into all aspects of the case and the result of that examination has now become public property.
We were there to examine the railway agreements, and we had indeed a colossal task. When we talk of the railway agreements what naturally comes into our minds is perhaps two or three very clear and precise documents, but nothing of that sort was before us. What, indeed, was before us was a whole series of negotiations going on by correspondence and interviews, and extending over the Whole period of railway control. They were not summed up, collated, or presented at any time in any one document, but their full effect could only be gathered, so far as we could consider them, in the mass. That being so, it would obviously be far beyond my powers, and beyond the patience of this House, to endeavour to make hon. Members acquainted with those agreements in anything like detail, and all I can hope to do is to give to the House the outstanding features of the principal agreements that mean money and dominate the situation, and to that object I shall limit myself.
Those agreements are three in number. There is, first of all, the original agreement which, as far as I am able to judge, was an agreement under which the Government in effect agreed to bear any loss to the companies arising from any cause during the period of control. The Committee, in reporting, said we were not a Committee of lawyers, and we have been twitted with that fact, and in giving interpretations of any of these agreements I give them with that proviso. What I have stated does appear to be the nature of the original agreement which existed for a period of two years after the War, and it appears to relieve the railway companies of any loss that may occur to them from any cause operating in that period. A very simple and broad illustration of that is the fact that the losses caused to the railway companies by reason of the present strike will fall upon the taxpayers of this country under that agreement. I do not want to comment upon that agreement, or upon its exceptional character. The fact is that it took the railway companies outside the area of trouble and disaster to which the whole of the rest of the community was subject. Apparently, the effect of it is that whatever may happen to anybody else, they are immune.
Following on that agreement was one in respect of deferred maintenance. That is not an easy agreement to make clear. It was not an easy one to frame, and it was not an agreement which appeared to arise naturally out of the original agreement, but in substance it appears to be this: The railway companies during the War found themselves in the same position as nearly everybody else, that is, that there were certain things they could not do because they could not get materials and they could not get men, and consequently the things they desired to do had to be deferred. As far as most other people are concerned, when they were able to do those things they had to do them at their own expense, in spite of any increased cost that might take place owing to their having been deferred. There is a body of people interested in a kind of property quite as valuable as the property of the railway undertakings. Before the War railway property was estimated as being worth £1,300,000,000. I saw a statement made by the National Association of Property Owners that the ordinary house property of this country was about equal in amount. May I point out that everybody who owned property and could not get their repairs done have since had to bear the increased cost of repairs out of their own pockets, but that is not the case with the railway companies, and this agreement appears to relieve them entirely of that expense. Whenever the railway companies carry out deferred repairs, whatever the cost may happen to be, they are to be carried out at the expense of the taxpayer. That is the second agreement.
The third agreement is one we came to know as the Stores Agreement. That was not made until the end of 1916. It is to the effect that at the end of control, whatever the stores in the possession of the railway companies may be, they are to receive the difference in value between the stores then and what they would have been worth in 1914. I will take some rough figures supplied to us. If the railway stores in pre-War time at the outbreak of war were worth £13,000,000, and if at the end of the period of control, the same quantities of stores are worth £39,000,000, they are to be left in possession of those stores, and they are to receive at the same time the sum of £26,000,000, being the difference between what those stores would have been worth in 1914 and what they are worth to-day. That is the Stores Agreement, and on these three agreements the principal liabilities arise. There were a number of negotiations. There was an amount of correspondence about a large number of very small items with which I do not propose to weary the Committee. Those I have given I believe I have described correctly, and they were the three principal agreements or the three divisions of one agreement, and it is on those three agreements that the main liabilities arise.
I want just to say a word or two about the way in which the agreements have been treated during the course of the War. Some sort of picture has been attempted to be portrayed on the public mind of those agreements as being something as sacrosanct as the Treaty that was made with Belgium, and that in some sort of way the colwyn Committee, in conspiracy with the Ministry of Transport, want to treat those agreements in the way Germany treated as a scrap of paper her obligations to Belgium. That is a very wrong impression. If the public have an idea of a sort of tableau vivant, in which is portrayed the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London as gallant little Belgium, and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport as Prussia, the right hon. Baronet, standing there with his violated scrap of paper, and my right hon. Friend bearing down upon him with all the cohorts of the Colwyn Committee, then I think that is an entirely wrong impression. As a matter of fact, from the beginning to the end these agreements were not treated in a sacrosanct fashion. I will read one or two extracts from the correspondence which I think will entirely bear out what I said. Here is Sir Alexander Butter-worth, in question 4310, dealing with the situation that arose just towards the end of 1915. He uses these words: So that before the agreement had grown hardly cold—the agreement of 6th August, 1914—the railway companies, prior to the end of that year, were themselves considering the necessity of having it altered. One goes on and finds that in July, 1915, the question arose as to surplus and deficiency. The agreement provided that the Government was to make up deficiencies, but it was silent on the point as to what was to happen to surpluses, and the Railway Executive turned their attention to that. The question was asked: "Supposing there is a surplus, what is to happen in regard to that?" and Sir A. Butterworth, in reply, said: you have here is not a cut and dried agreement or contract which everyone clearly understood and realised, but some more or less provisional arrangement made in the light of then existing circumstances, but from time to time altered, expanded, and revised as appeared to be equitable. All this goes to illustrate the way in which these agreements were treated throughout the whole period of control, and when the House is faced, as it is to-day, with the Report of the Colwyn Committee and asked for an expression of its opinion, as I understand it will be, upon these agreements, it is essential hon. Members should realise not only what was the nature of the agreements, but also the estimation in which they have been held by the parties to them, and on that estimation it appears to me it would only be consistent with the general course of treating these agreements that the House should at the present time have regard to circumstances entirely unforeseen and quite unprovided for in the agreements, and apply the same spirit to the final settlement as has characterised the negotiations in regard to all the agreements during the course of control.
That brings me to the recommendations made by the Colwyn Committee, and I propose as briefly as I can to run through them in their order. I do not know any other way in which I can bring before the Members of this House the points that arise on these matters. The first recommendation is that charges in excess of the 1913 quantum are to be disallowed. That is a recommendation in respect of the claim made for liabilities arising out of deferred maintenance. In 1913, which was the year taken as the standard year, by comparison with which the deficiencies are to be determined, there was a certain sum of money set aside for repairs and renewals and a certain sum of money expended on maintenance and repairs. It is to be assumed that in 1913 the railway companies, then in full control of their undertakings, spent on them what was a proper amount for repairs, renewals and maintenance. That seems to be a fair and reasonable assumption. It was a good year. It is agreed it was a year in which the railway companies were in possession of funds out of which they could make liberal provision for these purposes, and the Committee came to the conclusion, in considering what was a proper sum to be allowed for these purposes, that a sum baaed on the 1913 provision would be fair and reasonable. Members of the House might ask, Why not determine what is actually required; why not examine the railways and see what is their physical condition, and estimate what is necessary to put them into the same condition today as they were in pre-War times and pay that sum? It is generally agreed, however, that that is not a thing possible to be done. It is not possible to make a physical survey of the railways and determine in that way what should be paid. The only possible way of dealing with the question is to give to the railway companies during each year in which the Government had control a sum equal to the 1913 standard. It will not be the same sum, because costs have changed. £10,000,000 in 1913 would perhaps not be worth more than £4,000,000 to-day. Taking the 1913 figure and adjusting it to the increased price of to-day, the Committee felt that a fair thing would be to pay that sum over to the railway companies, and their recommendation is that if any railway company asks for a larger sum than that, it shall not be granted—in fact, that the amount to be paid to the railway companies shall be as large, but no more than the 1913 provision equated to the present prices. That is their first recommendation.
The second recommendation is that, where in some cases the railway companies have spent more, or paid more, than they should have done on that basis, the excess sum should be refunded. The third recommendation is that any expenditure that is claimed to have been due to abnormal wear and tear should be required to be substantiated. On that it is sufficient to say that the provision made during the period of control allowed first for repairs and then for deferred repairs, but beyond that there is adumbrated a claim for what is called "abnormal wear and tear." If the railway companies have spent more on repairs than was allowed to them, and if they claim a further sum for abnormal wear and tear, then the Committee recommended that before any such claim be paid the companies must substantiate and prove it to the fullest possible degree. They also make one or two small recommendations. One is that there shall be no more payments on account of arrears—no more current payments unless the repairs are being carried out. Already about £40,000,000 has been paid to the railway companies on account of arrears, which have not yet been made good. They have in hand, in fact, £40,000,000; and the Committee recommend that before any further sum is paid to them they should expend that money.
Then with regard to the Stores Agreement, the opinion of the Committee was that, since the Stores Agreement was made, there had been a revision of railway rates, and a revision had been made taking into account the increased cost of maintenance, and therefore, in so far as the increased price of stores led to an increased cost of maintenance, that had been taken into account and provided for in the revised rates. That being so, an entirely new element had come into the situation, and the Stores Agreement might, in these new circumstances, be properly revised and reviewed. Finally, the recommendation was made that the check on the accounts of the railway companies by the Ministry of Transport should be continued.
I apologise to the House for having taken up so much time, but we spent 17 days in going through the mass of matter presented to us, and I have endeavoured to boil it down into a few minutes. In making this statement I have endeavoured to put before the House as fairly, coolly and impartially as was in my power the situation which arises out of the presentation of this Report.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down has placed before the House, as he very properly said, a condensed statement of the situation which the members of the Colwyn Committee found in their investigation for the Ministry of Transport in the Autumn of last year, and in the previous Debate the hon. Member for Camlaehie (Sir H. Mackinder) placed before the House the situation as it appeared to him. I do not desire to cover the ground which my hon. and gallant Friend has covered very fully and ably on this occasion, but, as we approach the period of decontrol in any industry, undoubtedly a situation of great difficulty arises. We are faced throughout the country to-day with an extremely difficult position through the coal trade being decontrolled hastily. Finding, as I have on several occasions recently, increasing difference of opinion with the Government, I am glad this afternoon to congratulate the Ministry of Transport on having looked ahead in this matter, and on having taken every available step to secure the opinions of all parties in order to ensure that when the period of decontrol did arise, the situation would have been thoroughly examined, and the country and the House of Commons would be in possession of the full facts.
The period of decontrol, in the case of all control by any Government, always ends in a deficit. I say that in no controversial spirit against the Ministry of Transport; it is the invariable experience in this country and in America; and, if my information is correct, the deficit on the American railways is even larger than the deficit which this country will have to face this year. Whenever any deficit arises, there will always be extreme divergence of opinion. This House, and, I am sure, the country generally, desires that the different agreements which have been entered into since 1914 between the various railway companies and the Government should be kept in the letter and also in the spirit. Undoubtedly there are certain railway directors whose claims, if they kept to the strict letter of the law, the Government would be forced to face in the law courts. I do not think the House of Commons desires that these questions should be threshed out before the courts. The situation is an exceedingly difficult one. My hon. and gallant Friend (Major Barnes) has covered certain of the controversial points, but the point which I am anxious to put to the Minister is that, when he comes to settle, as I hope he will, with the railway companies, he will act as the trustee of the nation. On several occasions during the last two months the Government have acted too little as trustees of the nation, and have been influenced too much by the political or other pressure which has been brought against them. Therefore, I hope the Minister will be guided entirely by the public interest and by thought for the taxpayer, who to-day has heavy burdens. We are well aware that under these agreements there will be a further heavy liability on the State. How heavy it will be it is very difficult to say, but, from the information which the Colwyn Committee were able to gather together, the figure, as the House knows, amounts to £140,000,000. For several years past those who have been using the railways have been receiving railway service at less than cost price, and that is the reason why the deficit has arisen. Having received that benefit in the past, they have forgotten it to-day, and will take extreme exception to any large sum of money which the Government may be forced, and rightly so, to pay to the railway companies. Therefore, I ask the Minister of Transport to act in this matter solely as the trustee of the nation, and, in approaching the subject from that point of view in presenting his case to the House of Commons, I am sure he will find the House willing to support him in his efforts.
I understand that very shortly the Minister of Transport intends to reply to this discussion, but I am sure that hon. Members in all parts of the House will be willing to bear for a very few minutes with another Member of the Colwyn Committee in presenting what is, perhaps, a slightly different point of view in the controversy that is now under review in this House. Since the Report of the Colwyn Committee was published, one or two of the chairmen of the leading railway companies in this country lave gone out of their way to say that it amounts to the repudiation of agreements, that it is, in effect, confiscation of the property which they regard as theirs, and that from no point of view of public policy or principle of right could this Report be accepted. It would be easy for members of the Colwyn Committee to reply to that criticism on this occasion. I do not propose to try to reply, because I am very hopeful that an atmosphere may be maintained in this discussion which will make an amicable settlement possible. I have therefore no desire to import into this Debate any of the acrimonious features which, I regret to say, have been apparent at some of the meetings of railway shareholders within recent times. We may understand the position very simply and clearly by a plain review of what I call the four stages of its history. There was, first of all, the set of circumstances which obtained at the outbreak of War. There was, in the second place, the conclusion of the initial agreement. Thirdly, there were the circumstances which existed during the period of control; and, lastly, there is the line of solution which the Colwyn Committee recommend. These stages are very important if we are to understand what is at stake in this Debate. All hon. Members will agree that it is a matter of the very greatest importance to this country. The ascertained claims of the railway companies, as they were finally reviewed by the Colwyn Committee, were at least £150,000,000; but of course it is only fair to say that that represented all that we could point to at the period when we completed and signed our Report. That was by no means the end of the story. Therefore, from the mere standpoint of finance, probably no greater question has been presented to this House within recent times.
It is very important to understand what were the circumstances obtaining in August, 1914, when the initial, and, as I may call it, the bedrock agreement was reached. What were those circumstances? War broke out on 4th August. For a few days before that date, and for a day or two afterwards, important negotiations took place between representatives of the Board of Trade, on behalf of the Government, and one or two representatives of the railway companies. It cannot be contended that, in the initial stages of this agreement, and certainly not in the stages which followed, there was anything like equality of bargaining power. That is the first outstanding fact which we must keep in mind. The officials of the Board of Trade who were responsible did not claim to have any intimate or intricate knowledge of railway affairs. They were busily engaged in other matters of State. Their Department, like all public departments, was overwhelmed in the first period of the crisis. They could only give a limited portion of their time to a matter of the highest importance, and, above all, they could not bring to bear on it that technical knowledge which it undoubtedly required. What was the position on the other side? The other side was represented by some of the railway managers, and, perhaps, behind them, by some of the railway directors, who had great experience of their undertakings, who were among the business and financial men of genius in this country, and who could be entrusted to protect their concerns in the new conditions upon which they were entering by reason of the War. I am not making any complaint at all of that state of affairs. It may be argued that the State should have taken better precautions when the initial agreement was reached. That is quite an understandable position from the point of view of those who criticise the Colwyn Committee's Report, but I suggest that, having regard to the crisis of 1914, having regard to the fact that it was utterly impossible in those circumstances to make the best arrangements from the point of view of protecting the State and the taxpayer—having regard to all the conditions which obtained at that time, we must be lenient and merciful in our judgment today. I think that that will be conceded by all hon. Members of this House.
Not only was there a complete absence of anything like equality in bargaining in the initial agreement—entered into, if I remember rightly, on the 6th August, 1914—but in the subsequent proceedings over those early years of control we find the same lack of balance, and we find an almost complete dependence upon the railway executive, consisting of railway managers in Great Britain, upon the railway accountants, and upon others who had in pre-War times been in strictly railway company service. Again I make no complaint. It is quite possible that the State could have adopted no other course. But the reasonable, and, I think, fair and natural suggestion which I make is this, that, however faithfully these servants of the companies in pre-War times endeavoured to discharge their duty to the State and to the tax-payer, it was utterly impossible to expect these men to divorce themselves completely from what we should call a railway experience and a railway point of view. That obtained throughout the initial years of control, throughout the War period, and has a very important bearing upon the situation to-day.
I come, in the second place, to the actual initial agreement which was concluded. There was in existence on 4th August, 1914, the Regulation of the Forces Act of 1871, and the relevant Section of that Act lays it down, in terms which are tolerably clear and plain, that in the event of the railways being taken possession of or coming under the control of the State in any period of emergency, compensation is to be paid for loss or injury in respect of their being under control, or for everything that arises from what we should call control in the strict sense of the term. Acts of Parliament are notoriously ambiguous, and I am not going to suggest for a moment that the Section of the Act of 1871 is free from ambiguity. But if one takes a commonsense reading of it, one is compelled to come to the conclusion that the beginning and the end of the railway companies' claim in this matter is a claim for what may be rightly attributed to control, and there can never be any claim whatever for what we should attribute to the general circumstances of war at large. That is the first principle of the initial agreement which I should lay down. When the first agreement was concluded that was the Act of Parliament which was pleaded on both sides. It was, of course, the accepted Statute. It was not, possible to try to arrive at any arrangement which in advance would seek to give effect to the precise meaning and the precise terms of the Statute of 1871, and what I have always regarded as a device was introduced, the device being to guarantee to the companies the net receipts of the year 1913 and to make that, broadly and generally stated, the basis upon which control should proceed as long as the War lasted. There again we are compelled to ask in the first place whether that would be any true measure of what the companies were entitled to under the Act of 1871. It is perfectly plain that it might be the true measure of their claims under the Act of 1871, but if it proved to be the true measure it would be largely by accident. It was not possible to measure it in advance. It was quite possible that it might greatly exceed the amount to which the companies were strictly entitled, and throughout the three or four months that the Colwyn Committee reviewed these loose agreements and understandings I was more and more compelled to the view that the year 1913 was a very generous basis indeed from which the railway companies started in their career during the period of control itself. It is admitted by practically every student of British railways that the year 1913 was a peak year in their history. Hon. Members who turn to the speeches that were made by the chairmen of railway undertakings in reviewing the results of 1913 will not dispute that conclusion. So that the railway companies started, from the point of view of most of us, I think, in the Colwyn Committee, with what might be regarded as an advantage.
Take in the third place what happened during the period of control. Let us remember in this connection the almost complete absence of equality in bargaining power. Let us remember, in the second place, what is not seriously disputed by anyone who has read these agreements impartially, that there is a very great absence of reciprocity throughout. I am not an authority on bargains or agreements except to a very limited extent, but I have always understood that there should be something like equality in bargaining power to begin with, and something like reciprocity in the agreement finally arrived at. There is practically little or no response to either of these tests in the agreements and understandings between the initiation of control in August, 1914, and the conclusion of the period, or at all events the time when it became our duty in the Colwyn Committee to review all the facts and circumstances. In this third stage of a very brief argument, hon. Members will find that over and over again in what actually happened with British railways during the War bargains and arrangements were made which were advantageous to the companies and disadvantageous to the State. I regard what took place as a progressive bettering of the original agreement of 1914, and if that is true—and I think it is borne out by many of the facts which have since emerged—it becomes our duty at the present day not to tear up agreements, as has been suggested by critics of the Colwyn Committee, but to review these agreements in order to bring them into fine with strict justice and equity.
I would say, with very great respect to railway directors and shareholders, that it is idle to deny that during the period of control exceptional steps were taken by the railway companies, depending, as they did, on the guarantee which they had been promised of the net receipts of 1913. It is perfectly fair to say that these arrangements would never have been made in other circumstances by the Government. It is perfectly fair also to suggest that they were excessive, as in the case of maintenance, and I think it is beyond all doubt that they violated a principle which the railway companies themselves laid down that on their part, as servants and trustees of the people during this emergency, nothing should be done to violate the spirit and the letter of the original arrangement of August, 1914, that no advantage whatever should be taken of the emergency and the crisis through which this country passed. If I, as perhaps the humblest member of the Colwyn Committee, had been able to take the view that that original principle had been faithfully upheld by the railway companies between 1914 and the time when we reviewed the circumstances, I should not offer the criticism which I am offering now. I should not have a single word to say by way of opposition to the line of action they have followed. But the reverse is the case, and it is therefore the duty of the House of Commons, in the interest of the taxpayers, to have regard to these circumstances, not to tear up and repudiate the agreements, but, as I would put it, to review and reduce within the letter and the terms of the Act of 1871 the agreement of August, 1914, but stripped of everything which could be attributed to War circumstances and conceding only that which can be rightly and properly attributed to control.
That brings me, in the last place, to the concluding stage of my argument in this very brief review of the Colwyn Committee and its history. What are the circumstances with which we are confronted at present? Various processes are open to Parliament. They may simply say, "Let this go to litigation! Let the railway companies take advantage of their right to go before the Railway and Canal Commission!" I should deplore a great issue of this kind going to litigation, with all the vast cost that that would inevitably involve and with the tremendous expense which it seems to me would be simply inevitable from the point of view of this country, whichever way the decision went. I am therefore forced to take a moderate and a reasonable line and try to find a solution if a solution can be found. In a reservation which I wrote to the unanimous findings of the Colwyn Committee I took this view, that as the original agreement had been concluded under the relevant section of the Act of 1871 we should make every effort possible to try to review all that had happened during the period of control and to fit our final adjustment of compensation to the strict circumstances which had emerged from control itself. My colleagues, by a majority, took the view that such a review was hardly practicable. They said, "We cannot go back upon it." My reservation was designed simply to say that in the light of all the inquiry and the information which had been undertaken I did not feel inclined to assent to that conclusion.
6.0 P.M.
But suppose we waive that at present. What is the next course that we can recommend to the Government in this Debate? It is with the recommendation of what appears to me to be a perfectly fair line of policy that I am going to conclude. When the Colwyn Committee reached the end of their labours they had ascertained that under the head of maintenance, under the head of abnormal wear and tear, under the head of the Stores Agreement, and other considerations, at least £150,000,000 would probably be claimed by the railway companies. We argued—and we were supported by a considerable array of facts—that the railway companies had already obtained, during the period of control, very large Bums to which they were not strictly entitled. We thought we had ascertained a claim of approximately £150,000,000. That was not by any means the whole of the case. A very great deal was unascertained and various estimates have been made, not merely by Members of the House but by writers on the subject outside, that the total claim to be preferred against this country would be anything from £200,000,000 upwards. It is therefore clear that it is our duty to try to bring this business to some sense of decency and proportion, and my suggestion is this: The original agreement of August, 1014, guaranteeing the net receipts of 1913 for the period of control, it was thought, would work out in practice to be, roughly, equivalent to what the companies would have been entitled to in respect of control under the Act of 1871. That is the position as I understand it. My suggestion is that we should simply take 1871 as our basis, take the original agreement of August, 1914, strip the situation of everything which may be attributed to war circumstances, and give over and above the strict rate of 1871 compensation for such admittedly abnormal factors as have emerged since control com- menced—there are one or two abnormal factors which are beyond doubt—and find a very limited compensation on that footing. It may be asked by hon. Members, and I think it is a perfectly fair question: If that was the conclusion arrived at as a result of the proceedings of the Colwyn Committee, why did you not reduce it to some definite and concrete figure? Why did you leave it at the conclusion of your Report vague and indefinite as regards amount? The members of the Colwyn Committee were impressed by this consideration, that they might have been inclined to put a very low figure upon the companies' claim, a figure £5,000,000, £10,000,000, or more: but the inquiry had only proceeded for a few months and had dealt with a vast mass of documents which were very difficult to understand. I think there was also a feeling that we might accidentally prejudice the taxpayers' case and add to the difficulties of the Government if we imported a figure which later investigation would not justify. Whatever the figure is that may be suggested by the Government in this connection, I am bound to say that under the circumstances, and even under a generous interpretation of the case from the companies' point of view, it must be tremendously less than even the figure of £150,000,000 which the Colwyn Committee were able to ascertain. It must be a comparatively small sum, and I would willingly say that if any comparatively small sum can be suggested which strips compensation to the railway companies of everything due to war circumstances, which gives them only compensation in respect of what can be rightly attributed to control, with such allowances for admittedly abnormal circumstances as must be made, an agreement or a solution on those lines would probably commend itself to the bulk of the taxpayers, and would be a fitting conclusion to this very important controversy that now confronts the State.
I think, after the somewhat violent development of this controversy, the House and the country may congratulate themselves upon the extremely moderate and very wise and helpful remarks which we have had from the three members of the Colwyn Committee who have spoken.
There are two others still to come.
I believe they will be equally moderate. The position of the railways in their agreement with the State was, in the opinion of the Government, as things turned out, a favourable one during the War. They had guaranteed the net receipts of the highest year they had ever had, and that was the year in which their expenditure on maintenance and upkeep of their property was also at its highest. For seven years they had no anxiety either as to their net receipts or as to their dividends. I think in the last year they distributed £1,000,000 more than they had ever distributed before the War. They have maintained their property as far as they could regardless of cost, or I should say regardless of increased cost. They have done that at the cost of the State. There were no complaints of the bargain when it was made. In 1916 the railway companies asked, as the price in another arrangement which was discussed, to have the bargain continued after the War. The Irish railways asked to have the same bargain given to them, and the tubes in London asked to have the same bargain extended to them. Therefore, it was obvious that the arrangement was one favourable to the railways, and that the railways so considered it at the time. It is a fact that there is no statutory undertaking which has been placed during the War on a similarly favourable basis. The transaction was a large one. During the seven years about £2,400,000,000 of the State's money has either gone into or passed out of the coffers of their temporary agents, the railway companies. That is the total of their receipts and expenditure. It is a large financial transaction. The money was spent by the companies' servants on the companies' property, and not by the State's servants on the State's property. That is a very important difference. It would indeed be strange if in a transaction of this magnitude, based upon documents and agreements difficult to construe—anybody who looks through the Appendixes to the Colwyn Report will appreciate the difficulty of construing these documents—matters did not arise in which disputes were inevitable. The disputes have gradually culminated, with the approaching termination of control, in the present controversy.
It was only at the end of the War that an organisation was created by Parliament, the Ministry of Transport, whose business it was to act as the Treasury watch dog. I have used that term before, and I believe it is a true expression of our attitude in this matter. Since that time we have challenged about £20,000,000 of money which, in our opinion, should be either not debited to the State, or should be credited to the State, and in connection with that £20,000,000, controversies have arisen. They are still going on. There will be other large sums of money, undoubtedly, which will be challenged before the accounts are closed, because the accounts are only closed for 1914. Nothing has been closed since. This scrutiny of accounts, this challenging of expenditure, this checking of items, will go on for some time after the end of control. At the end of control, however, we ought to try to get a final settlement of the position so that this controversy should not go dragging on, and there should not be a Continuance of uncertainty in a great essential industry. It was in order to arrive at some clear interpretation of what the situation was, not a legal interpretation, but a fair interpretation, that the Colwyn Committee was appointed. [ Laughter. ] I think it is a poor tribute to the painstaking care and impartiality of that Committee, and that my remarks should be received with laughter from behind. I resent it very much. The Committee was entirely impartial. It is unfair and unworthy that hon. Members should laugh and sneer at a Committee largely composed of Members of this House, which took on a very thankless task, and which they discharged with extreme impartiality and great care, and I take this opportunity on behalf of the Government of thanking them for the painstaking way in which they made the inquiry.
The view of the Government is this: There are, I think, 114 controlled railway companies. They do not work as one concern. Each of them works on its own. They have certain machinery which co-ordinates their claims and is available for the Government to address when it is desired to deal with general principles; but each railway is a law to itself. There is no central authority over these 114 different companies. We cannot compel them to do anything. Some railways, and they are few in number, have perhaps over-strained in one particular or another the strict spirit of the agreements entered into by the Railway Executive Committee on behalf of the railway companies. I wish to emphasise the fact that the number of railways which can possibly be placed in this category is small. None of the great railways are included. On this matter, I will quote from the Colwyn Report: law, and that is as far as the Government has ever intended to go.
The Colwyn Report put the liability not at £150,000,000, but at £156,000,000. In addition to that, they reported that the companies made claims under the Act of 1871 and under the Ministry of Transport Act. Those were unknown figures. We have spent many weary weeks endeavouring to flog this matter out. The figure of £156,000,000 was, as was pointed out, not a legal interpretation, but an outside figure. After very long and very arduous negotiations, we have come to a settlement which will be submitted to the judgment of the House in the Bill which I hope to introduce next week, and it will be open to the House to accept or reject this settlement in the Bill. The settlement is this, that after the close of the period of Government control, up to which time the accounts will continue running on their present lines, the State should make, probably in two payments, at the end of this year and at the end of next year, a payment equivalent to a net £51,000,000. I am putting it that way in order to get the right measure. It is the equivalent sum of £51,000,000 to be paid to the companies in complete satisfaction of their claim. The actual sum that the State will be asked to pay is a sum of £60,000,000; but a minimum of £30,000,000 will be subject to Income Tax. It is a difficulty which we had to get over to meet the companies. If the Income Tax remains at 6s. that will mean £9,000,000 off, so that as nearly as we can arrive at it now the net amount which the House will be asked to pay will be £51,000,000. It is quite conceivable that more than £30,000,000 will be subject to the tax, but the minimum amount so subject will be £30,000,000. That is the settlement which, subject to the companies' acceptance of the main principles of the Bill, has been agreed to to-day as the recommendation which the Government will make to the House.
The right hon. Gentleman has rather misunderstood the agreement. What we decided yesterday was that £60,000,000 should be accepted on the understanding that, if any part of that £60,000,000 was used for the payment of a dividend, that part should be subject to income tax, and we reject altogether the idea of £9,000,000 being deducted for income tax.
My right hon. Friend is speaking of yesterday, but I am referring to the arrangement which was come to to-day.
By whom?
By Lord Churchill on behalf of the Railway Companies' Association. It is as follows: Payment into the Bank of England of the sum of £60,000,000. Income tax will be paid on so much of that money as is appropriated to the payment of interest or dividends at any date, and in any case income tax should be paid on a sum of not less than £30,000,000 within a period of three years.
I had the honour of speaking to Lord Churchill only 20 minutes ago, and he assured me that what I have just said to the right hon. Gentleman is what he agreed to, and is also what the Committee sitting yesterday agreed to, and we have not been asked in any way to modify it.
May I read Lord Churchill's letter—
"DEAR SIR ERIC,
I have received a memorandum of the proposal made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of which I attach a copy to this Vetter. As Chairman of the Railway Companies' Association, I accept the Chancellor's offer. His memorandum is silent as to the date of payment, but you are aware that it must be so conditioned as to be capable of being brought into the accounts of the present year to the extent of at least one-half."
The right hon. Gentleman said that this was to be subject to the companies accepting the main provisions of the Bill. What does he mean by this?
This is a payment which will be recommended to the House as part of a whole settlement. It will not be given as a part of a settlement.
What will happen if the House exercises its right of rejection of this Bill?
Then the House will reject the Government proposal.
Including the payment to the railway companies?
Supposing this settlement be not passed, then nothing remains but litigation. We have honestly, and with great care, endeavoured to arrive at what was the minimum for which we could settle. We will recommend the House to pass these terms. If the House rejects a settlement of this kind, there is nothing ahead of us but litigation, extending over years, and great uncertainty in the industry.
Is Ireland included in this?
Ireland is entirely out of this. It will be dealt with in a short following Bill. These are the terms of settlement. There are in the main two or three reservations. One, that the ordinary scrutiny and check of the accounts, which I have just told the House has brought up to date a sum of £20,000,000, which has been challenged, shall continue. Included in this—and the members of the Colwyn Committee and those who have studied the Report will appreciate this—there are sums which are called, in that Report, excess expenditure. Excess expenditure is expenditure which the companies have incurred after they have spent their full quota at the rate of 1913 on maintenance of their property at present day cost, whatever that may be. If, in addition to this, when the property has been maintained at the 1913 figure, they then spend more, we call that excess. That excess is a very serious item. The Chairman of the Railway Executive Committee, writing in the August of 1914, I think to the Board of Trade, said:
"We understand from the statement which you made to us to-day that there is some apprehension on the part of the advisers of the Government that advantage may be taken by some companies of the settlement provisionally come to with the Government as to the basis of compensation under Section 16 of the Regulation of the Forces Act to spend abnormal sums out of revenue on maintenance of lines and stock. I have to say that while the Executive Committee cannot believe that any company would be capable of acting in such a manner, they have regarded it as an obligation of honour to protect the Government against any possibility of such an event, and they have already taken steps to safeguard the position of the companies in this respect."
Owing to time running on and other reasons a great deal of excess expenditure has been incurred, and it amounts to-day to about £8,000,000. There is reserved to the State the right to deduct that excess. We challenge that expenditure. We propose to test that in the Law Courts if necessary. That is reserved to us as a right. There is one other reservation which was felt by us to be one of principle, and that as such it should be retained. When the companies in 1916 were asked to assist the armies in France, they responded at once, and sent rolling stock, locomotives, and permanent way to France. Under the working of the machine the maintenance charges for all the plant which was sent to France simply went on. It became a charge on the Government under the ordinary formula, while the plant, in fact, was maintained by the Army in France. Of course, the line was riot maintained, but still the maintenance of that line, in respect to platelayers' wages and everything else, continued as a charge to the State. It was the same with locomotives. We have reserved the right to adjust that in the formula, and it is a sum which at to-day's prices—and that is how it affects us—will be worth something in the neighbourhood of £2,000,000.
Are these sums included in the £51,000,000?
No, these are sums which we reserve the right to collect ourselves. They have already been paid or are claimed. We say we shall go through them with the ordinary scrutiny in the ordinary way, as we do systematically before accounts are passed and the final certificate is given. We will not alter any of the other formulæ under which we have been working right through, but we reserve our right to deal with these two items in our own way, and we propose to press them. We may not be able to recover the whole lot, but whatever we can recover in process of law we will.
Does that mean that your position is that you claim that betterment is not maintenance?
We claim it is betterment until it is proved to be maintenance. That is broadly the settlement which, as part of an entire settlement, we will submit to the House next week. We hope we shall have further advanced with negotiations and will be nearer an agreement as to the proposals which we bring before the House. The Attorney-General is here, and if the House desires to have fuller information as to these agreements, in so far as he can give it it will be at the disposal of the House, but after the fullest consultation we have come to the conclusion that, having regard to the legal advice which we get and to the general situation, this is a settlement which we can confidently recommend to the House as fair and reasonable, and following the spirit and not the strict letter of the law where the letter of the law presses unduly hard upon the taxpayer. As to how the companies spend it, that is their own business, but a portion of it is to be taxed for Income Tax purposes. It will be of great use in stabilising the industry. If will assist the companies who have been strained in their finances. They may not spend it in the way which we would have allocated it as justifiable, but what we do feel is that with this money, in the very anxious time through which the companies have to go—like every other industry they have been very much upset by the conditions of the War—they should be able, with the aid of the settlement, to pull through until they can bring in economies and reorganise their working, and until the new organisation which we are going to propose for the purpose of effecting economy comes into effect.
I hope I will not be out of order in touching very briefly on all this. This will fit in with the general scheme of legislation. We propose that this settlement shall be part of the Bill and a condition of getting an agreed Bill. In principle the Bill has received a measure of support from the vast majority of the companies, and in principle I hope that we shall be able to submit an agreed Bill. It has received the support of a large body of traders, and I am more than glad to be able to tell the House that I have to-day received from the Railway Companies' Association a document which shows that the two sides, labour and the employers, have come to a very considerable measure of agreement on the matters which concern them in the future.
Has the right hon. Gentleman received the support of the Scottish traders?
I think that the organisations have spoken for the whole country.
No.
There is no question that it is most desirable from the point of view of the railway proprietor and the nation that an agreement should be arrived at. But the Committee which produced the Colwyn Report, which we shall discuss this afternoon, did not go with that exactitude and thoroughness into the matter under inquiry which at any rate some of us thought was desirable. A certain amount of prejudice has been caused by views that have been formed based on evidence that is very misleading. The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has referred to the fact as he stated that there were railway companies that were seeking to take advantage of the circumstances that arose. He imputed nothing to the great railways, but he did imply that there were other railways seeking to take advantage of the position. I think that that statement ought to be justified, and I have an idea that the evidence that was tendered by those who represented the Ministry was not in itself complete and exact in any respect. I have in mind a particular instance by which the inference that has been drawn as to the efforts by the railway companies to get more during recent years than was justifiable is very much affected.
In giving evidence Sir George Beharrell stated that in one case a railway company sought to get a floating dock out of the Government by charging to revenue the cost of that dock. I am sure that would mislead the Committee. The figure that was put before them as the expenditure of that particular railway company on docks in 1913 was £4,000, and then they were given to understand that the cost of this dock, which was £70,000, was to be taken out of the Government by, as it would appear, a somewhat unscrupulous railway company. The facts of the case were entirely different. This particular railway company did not wish to buy a floating dock, but under considerable pressure from the Government agreed to the purchase, and applied to the Railway Executive to know how they should deal with it. They were instructed that they should spread it over a period of ten years, and charge to revenue each year an equal amount. On the instruction of the Executive Committee, after a reference to the Sub-committee on Railway Accounts, this was done, but in the evidence that was tendered to the Colwyn Committee it was made to appear as though the whole of this £70,000 was coming in one year and was to be charged against the Government, and that the company was going to get a new dock for an old dock. As a matter of fact, it was not a thing that the particular railway wanted, and they did it only on the instructions of the Executive Committee, in the efficiency of which the Minister of Transport and the Colwyn Committee have expressed such great confidence. My point is that evidence so given was calculated to mislead, and that the Minister in judging these cases will be apt to take the standard of 1913 as applying to all these cases, and will not have regard to the exceptional circumstances that in many instances must have arisen. That has caused him to-day to say that certain railway companies were endeavouring to take advantage of the Government in the manner described.
As far as the statement of the Minister of Transport this afternoon is concerned, I am sure we shall all be glad to find that some means are being provided by which this great question can be settled, but it should be recognised at the outset that the railway companies heartily and unreservedly threw themselves into the work of the Ministries, that they placed the whole of their resources fully at the service of the Government, that they sought to do no profiteering, and that with all the energy and skill available they placed the whole of their services at the disposal of the country in its hour of need. Comparisons are perhaps of little use, but whilst in the shipping industry huge profits were being made in the early days of the War, nothing of the kind occurred on the railways, and right through, while the railway shareholder has had his dividends regularly, he has never had an inflated dividend, and he has reaped no excess profits. It is fair that he should be considered reasonably, and I believe it is the desire of this House that the railway interests should be treated reasonably. I hope that the Bill which the Minister of Transport is to produce and the compromise as regards money which has been mentioned will be accepted all round, that we may have an end of controversy in railway affairs and reach an amicable settlement, to the credit not only of the Government and of the public, but of the railways. I believe we owe a great debt for the magnificent work done by all the railways and that it would be ill of this House not to recognise that debt.
I need hardly say that I welcome the announcement which the Minister of Transport has made. It rather puts an end to this debate and places me personally in a difficult position, for I have listened to several speeches by Members of Lord Colwyn's Committee—speeches which though framed in Parliamentary and moderate language made charges against gentlemen who are connected with the railways, and the charges are no less serious because they are moderately framed. In fact, some of the charges made by the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham) amount to an accusation of holding up the community, of taking advantage of the railways' superior skill on 6th of August, 1914, when nobody was thinking of anything but the War, and of—
The hon. and gallant Gentleman must not misrepresent what I have said. All that I said was that on 6th of August, 1914, there was not equality in bargaining power. I made no charge whatever against the representatives of the railway companies.
When it is said that there was no equality of bargaining power, and then a speech is made to show that the party who had the superiority of bargaining power got all the advantages, surely it is accusing that party of using its bargaining power. Let the House think of the time, 6th August, 1914. At that date, who used bargaining power against the Government? If they did they were profiteers of a far more reprehensible kind than any of which I know, for if one service more than another was then essential to the whole of the country, surely it was the railway service, and if the railway companies used their power for the purpose of extracting the last penny for their shareholders, I do not think any of their representatives ought to show a face in public life again. I want to show that there is another side to this question. I do not quarrel with the composition of the Committee, but I think they put themselves into a false position from the outset. From the start they sat in secrecy. They had as one of their members a distinguished Treasury official, and they had no representative of the railways. I do not say that that affects their impartiality, but it has this very serious defect: the witnesses who came and gave evidence were not properly cross-examined. I think it was unfortunate that the Committee was not composed entirely of people who were outside Governmental or railway interests, or composed, as Committees often are, of the two parties in more or less equal numbers. They proceeded to examine certain witnesses, chiefly official witnesses. I agree that at the end a very distinguished and able general manager, Sir Alexander Butterworth, was called, but when he went into the box he was not acquainted with the evidence that had been given by previous witnesses, and he did not even know the very serious charges made.
I want the House to bear in mind that charges of this sort against a great industry are of a very serious character. The hon. Member for Central Edinburgh and the hon. Member for Newcastle East (Major Barnes) started by saying that in the case of the agreement of 1914 there was no equality of bargaining power. They commented on the fact that the Board of Trade representatives were not experts and the railway managers were, and that the Board of Trade were busy and presumably the railway managers were not. The Board of Trade officials who negotiated this 1914 agreement and who have been most unjustly attacked are the gentlemen who for years past have had cognisance of railway matters. They were the very people, the very experts, who were, and ought to have been, employed by the Government. Who else could have been employed? The Treasury was by no means a sleeping partner in this business. Often they have intervened very effectively. When the House is shown a picture of the taxpayer, badly represented by the Board of Trade, led like a lamb to the slaughter, I ask them to look at the other side of the picture, for, after all, if the Board of Trade officials are busy men, the railway manager is not idle. The Colwyn Committee all through assumed that the railways were doing nothing except carrying the goods of the Government and of the traders. As a matter of fact, from the first, every man, high or low, that could be spared from the railways went to the Government, and, secondly, all the works of the companies were turned into munition works and shells and guns were turned out. Owing to these two facts, that we lost a large number of our men and that every man was doing Government work, there arose a large part of this much-debated claim for what is known as arrears of maintenance. If it had not been for the Government work all that work would have been done during the War. I do not want to exaggerate, but a very large part of that claim arises solely from the fact that the Government urged again and again, and urged rightly, that all that energy should be spent on making munitions of war. Nobody says that maintenance should be beyond the 1913 standard. I have not seen that claim made except in a case where there was exceptional wear and tear on the lines.
I really do not think it is necessary to go into all the questions which are now before the House, but nobody ought to accept the three speeches we have listened to this afternoon as fairly representing the action of the companies. As I said at the beginning, this Debate has really concluded. A great part of the speeches of the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham) and the hon. Member for East Newcastle (Major Barnes) was on the lines of varying the agreement, and I think "reducing" was the word used by the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh. I put this consideration to them. You have here a legal agreement that can be legally enforced, and if you want to break it, I submit you can only do so on one of two grounds—either that it is an agreement obtained by fraud or that it is one obtained by force. It is not suggested that the railway companies were fraudulent in getting that agreement—though indeed something very near that has been suggested. The real charge against the companies is that of using force, of getting the agreement under duress, and of taking advantage of the national emergency. If I thought that charge was founded I should have made a much more violent speech than the hon. Member for Edinburgh. Thinking that and believing it as he does, he made a very moderate speech indeed. I do ask the House to believe that the men who had charge of negotiating this agreement and who had to carry on the railways are not quite so black as they have been painted. I believe they are as patriotic, as hardworking, and as anxious for their country's success as any class of men in the world, and it is unfair, after all these years have gone by, to hold them up to public odium and represent them as thinking all the time only of the interests of the railway shareholders, and never of the interests of the country. I rose to speak in this Debate because nobody had a chance of putting the other side of the case. I have put it very badly, partly through my own deficiency, but partly also through the exigencies of the Debate, because to go on with the Debate now is something like flogging a dead horse, but I should not have felt easy had I not risen to make this protest.
Unlike the hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken, I was unable to be present to hear the remarks of the two hon. Members who spoke before the Colwyn Committee, but I must say I never heard of a Committee before who were more pleased with themselves than the Colwyn Committee. Perhaps the most important point, or at any rate the second most important point we have heard was in reference to the dismissal of the Colwyn Committee. It practically amounted to patting the watchdogs on the back, and telling them their job was over. I take it we shall hear no more of the Colwyn Committee. One point which struck me in the speech of the hon. Member for East Newcastle (Major Barnes) was that he put the issue as one between the taxpayers and the railway companies. If I may say so he is quite wrong. The issue, as I take it, is one between the Minister of Transport and the stockholders, or the people who own the railways. There are 500,000 men and women who are stockholders of the railways in this country. I wonder what those men and women think of their present position. Take the man who has £500 invested in the stock of one of our ordinary English lines. What is he thinking, I wonder, of this Departmental Committee and of its Report? I am sure he certainly has not paid 3s. to buy the Blue Book, but he must be wondering who represented him on that Committee, who gave evidence for him, and what share he had in it. He had none at all, but he has certain basic facts to put forward.
In 1914, under the powers of the Act of 1871, the Government took over his property. He imagined, and the Gov- ernment imagined, and the directors imagined, that the War was going to be a short one, and that in a few months' time his property would he handed back. In 1916 the War had not ended, and the Government took permanent control of his property. The result has been that his property is now in a bankrupt condition. His railway stock is going down, and his capital is being depreciated all the time. I doubt if the House knows exactly what the loss has been to the stockholders in our English railways, taking the figures of to-day as compared with those obtaining just before the War. I propose to give three examples of three lines different in character. First, take Great Central ordinary stock. In 1913 it was touching practically 40, and at the present moment its value is 10. Great Western ordinary stock, a very high class stock, in the same year touched 120, and the present price is 60. London, Chatham and Dover ordinary stock—that of a small railway depending on suburban traffic and short haulage—touched 23 in 1913, while now the value is 6. This represents a ruinous and crushing loss to thousands of people, and they naturally want to know exactly how they are going to stand in the future. We have had a certain amount of information given us to-day. I think the right hon. Gentleman said that by June, 1922, there was to be a system of grouping. That would mean a great deal to these people, because, I take it, grouping would involve amalgamation, and if the Great Central is grouped with the Great Northern or the Great Eastern, or some other line of that sort, the ordinary stock will be bought up or absorbed by the more prosperous companies, and the ordinary stockholders in concerns like the Great Central will have some chance of getting the price of their property back to what it was in 1913.
We know the Government has decided to give a lump sum of £51,000,000. When this Bill is produced the stockholders will want to know what is to be the future of the Ministry of Transport, whether its powers in the future are to be greater or lesser as regards railways, and what powers the companies will have in regard to rates of wages? The average stockholder will be very glad to hear that an agreement has been entered into between the Railway Association, the National Union of Railwaymen and the Society of Locomotive Engineers, to set up something in the nature of a Whitley Council. That is the most hopeful statement we have had to-day. The stockholders will naturally scrutinise this Bill very closely when it is introduced. May I tell the House at once, that for the first time the stockholders have organised themselves. They are now organised in a body with committees all over the country, and the membership numbers over 100,000 and is increasing. The stockholders are really going to have a say at last in the disposal of their own property. I quite admit that the future is full of anxiety for them at the moment, but it is also full of good hope, and, speaking as a representative of the English shareholders, I trust that when the Bill is introduced, we will be able to give it our hearty support.
The hon. and gallant Member who has just sat down said that the position, from the point of view of the railway shareholder, was full of anxiety, but also full of hope. I am inclined to think that so far as the railway shareholders are concerned, it is more full of anxiety than of hope. I am not sure there is any particular advantage to be gained by pursuing this Debate. The last time a Debate took place on the Colwyn Report I ventured to say it had led nowhere. So far as to-day's Debate is concerned, it has led us to this: it has shown us very clearly that the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Transport contemplated an attack upon the position of the railway shareholders. He proceeded to dig his front line trench by setting up the Colwyn Committee and from that trench to deliver his assault The right hon. Gentleman comes to the House and proceeds to prepare his attack under a barrage by means of which he tries to prejudice the case of the railway companies. He leaves out some very important points. He makes no reference at all to the fact that while renewals, it is quite true, were limited, repairs were unlimited. Why was this so? Because the repairs in the ordinary course only required notification by a member of a wages staff who, if he saw in the course of his duty a wagon that might require repair, simply notified it. For that reason repairs were unlimited, and the evidence of Sir William Plender made that quite clear.
7.0 P.M.
I rose chiefly to say this. The right hon. Gentleman stated that his proposal was to make a grant of £51,000,000 in order to cover all the claims of the companies under the agreement. He went on to say that that was part of the settlement, by which I understood him to mean that unless the companies were prepared to accept his Bill, and all the principal provisions of the Bill, that that grant would not be made. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I asked the right hon. Gentleman, in the course of his speech, whether that was a correct interpretation of his remarks, and he said it was. If the sum he mentions is a just sum, and I am not going to say whether it is or not, then it ought to be given irrespective of whether or not the companies accept his Bill. I have never heard from any Minister of the Crown such an extraordinary proposal as that put forward by the right hon. Gentleman to-day. I wish to say this to him, that there will not be agreement on this Bill if the Bill is as he has led us to believe to-day. To attempt to bind the House or individual Members of the House by an agreement upon a Bill which has not been submitted to the House is unheard of in the course of—
I believe that in one part of what I said I did refer to it as "an agreed Bill." I was then reminded that that was incorrect. In the other part of what I said I stated that it was agreed, as far as principles were concerned, by the vast majority of the companies. It is not an agreed Bill, and, of course, it is clear that the House must be left free to deal with it when it comes before it, and that the Bill must be open to Amendment. I am sorry if I did not make myself clear.
I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, but with all respect I am not quite clear now. He said it was part of the settlement as a whole, and he suggested that if this sum were to be paid, all the railway companies must agree to the main provisions of the Bill. That cannot be accepted, and the right hon. Gentleman cannot expect it to be so. When this Bill comes before the House, irrespective of whether or not this particular sum will be included in it, there are certain com- panies which will feel themselves at liberty to oppose the Bill if they think fit, or to introduce any necessary limitations into it.
Motion, "That this House do now adjourn," by leave, withdrawn.
Housing Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
I am rather surprised that there is no statement from the Government about this Bill. Perhaps I may make one or two remarks, and then the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Health will reply to them. I may exhaust my right to speak if I do not go on now.
I think I may waive that point.
This is a continuation of the Motion for the Second Reading of this Bill, which I introduced some little time ago. The time on that occasion was quite inadequate to go into detail, so perhaps it will be for the convenience of the House if I deal with the measure now. The main purpose of the Bill, as hon. Members are aware, is to deal with the question of the continuance of the subsidy to private builders, which fell out when the Bill of last year failed to pass the other House. This subsidy, as hon. Members will remember, was provided for under Section 1 of the Housing (Additional Powers) Act, 1919, and the continuance of this position is a definite pledge given by the Government. Owing to the rejection of the larger measure by the House of Lords the whole question has been left in an unsatisfactory condition. A considerable number of houses were begun, and are being completed, to which the subsidy would have automatically become due if the Bill had passed last year. The proposal to continue this subsidy was no controversial point. It was agreed by all parties in the House. I think it was agreed at that time that at the earliest opportunity the subsidy should be restored and the debt honoured.
The House will agree in the importance of restoring, as far as possible, private building in the housing industry. It is a striking fact that before the War no less than 95 per cent. of working-class dwellings were built by private enterprise and only 5 per cent. by public authorities. Owing to the extraordinary economic conditions which exist, that proportion has become entirely reversed. We are all anxious to get the industry back to more normal conditions, and the subsidy was first instituted for that purpose. The result of the cessation of the subsidy legislation has really come to this: In October of last year 3,706 house plans were approved for subsidy. In November the figure was 2,500, and in December, 3,679. Since December no certificate has been issued except in the case of plans submitted before 31st December, 1920. A number of plans and houses were approved in anticipation of legislation, and they are so far reported as 1,731. What has happened since has been that, owing to the delay in the; extension of the subsidy, the starting of new houses, built by private persons, has been hindered to the extent of something like 2,500 a month. We want to remedy that as soon as possible, because we wish to get the private house building industry on its feet again as quickly as possible. I want to see these houses going up.
There is one point I wish to mention in regard to that. I find that there is a good deal of general misunderstanding on this subject as to the amount of the subsidy. The amount of the subsidy, which was £260 for a five-roomed cottage, was not fixed by this or any other Act. It was fixed by administrative action of the Ministry of Health. Of course, if it becomes possible, owing to a fall in the cost of construction, to reduce the subsidy and still to maintain the subvention to private builders, we shall adopt that course. We are not bound by any figure. The object of fixing it at that price then was that it was the lowest figure which would stimulate private house building. The total amount fixed by the Act of 1919 to be spent in that way—£15,000,000—will not be exceeded by this expenditure. We have no power to exceed the total figure, whatever happens. Of course, if we do not revivify this Act no further houses will be built, and nothing approaching this sum will come into question. That is really the position in rough outline. We have, as I said, really pledged ourselves, and I think the House has pledged itself, to put the people who are beginning to build these houses back into the condition which they would have been in if the Miscellaneous Provisions Bill had not been rejected by the House of Lords. We want, also, by extending the period for a further year, to stimulate private house building and to put the private house building industry on its feet.
That is the main Clause—Clause 2—of the Bill. I have put Clause 2 first, rather than taken the Clauses in order, because I felt that that was the main Clause in the measure, and the one to which I attached the very greatest importance. There are other Clauses to which I will refer in a few moments, some of which I propose not to proceed with, and others which will want consideration in Committee.
Not to proceed with?
Yes. The object of Clause 1 was to give compulsory powers to local authorities to hire dwelling-houses which had not been in occupation of any occupier at any time during a period of at least three months immediately preceding the date on which the local authority gave notice of their intention to hire that house. In view of the rather different conditions in which we are living at the present time, and as the term of hiring in any case would come to an end in 1923, this is not a Clause to which I think much practical value can be attached to-day, and I propose to drop it when we reach the Committee stage.
This matter is really of some importance, because it was raised on the previous Bill last year. There was a great difference of opinion in the Committee upstairs as to what constitutes a pledge by the Government. Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is definitely going to move to delete this Clause, and not to leave it to the Committee to delete it?
I propose to move the deletion myself, and to leave it to the Committee to move any other deletion they like.
Will the right hon. Gentleman move the deletion of this Clause, and encourage his supporters in the Committee to vote against it? I ask that, because the Government moved the deletion of a Clause last year, and their own supporters voted against them.
My intention is to move the deletion of this Clause, and so far as I have any influence with the Committee to ask for their support. I would like to mention a matter which has arisen and which has occupied my attention. It was raised in another place a short time ago. That is the continuation of the prohibition of luxury building. After giving very careful consideration to that matter I have come to the conclusion that in the present state of trade and the different circumstances which to-day exist, I do not think it is right to continue the prohibition in regard to buildings of that character. At the time that was introduced there was a great shortage of labour for housing, housing schemes were proceeding very slowly, and there was an abnormal amount of so-called luxury building going on, but to-day, when we have so much unemployment and when our building labour is going to be diluted considerably, the time has come when we can safely withdraw those restrictions, and I intend myself to move to insert Clauses to that effect in this Bill. Consequently, I shall move to delete Clause 3, which relates to an appeal on this matter, when we get into Committee.
With regard to Clause 4, which gives to local authorities who are carrying out housing schemes outside their own areas certain powers which they can only at present perform within their areas, these powers are necessary, especially to the London County Council, which is carrying out a large housing scheme outside its own area, and in the case of other authorities whose housing schemes could not be carried out unless this Clause were inserted. Most of the other Clauses are, I think, non-controversial, and are largely of a financial character. They enable county councils to raise money to finance housing schemes of local authorities, and give the Minister power to impose conditions on the raising of loans for such purposes; and they deal with the rates of interest to local authorities and public utility societies, which has been necessitated by the alteration in the rate of interest to-day as compared with what it was some years ago. I do not think I need dwell on any of these Clauses at any length now. They were all in the Bill of last year, and they are all of a harmless character and do not add any burden to the schemes, but they are necessary to enable the financial machinery to proceed smoothly. I know there are one or two controversial points which were raised last year on one or two of the finance Clauses, and one was the question of giving powers to local authorities to raise money to pay interest. There are a large number of precedents for that course, but I confess I have always felt a certain amount of difficulty in regard to this, and when we get into Committee I shall be very glad to listen very carefully to all the arguments on this question.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to eliminate the Clause which provides that local authorities can take possession under certain circumstances of private property?
I have already said so I think what I have said covers fairly adequately the Bill, which, of course, is not a new Bill, as Members really had it before them last year. I can only repeat that it is very urgent for us to get the Second Reading and thus to get the Bill upstairs in Committee, in order to enable us to proceed to regularise the position of subsidised building, and as I have said I will carefully consider any controversial questions, I think the Bill ought not to detain us very long in Committee upstairs.
In Committee last year we had a fight on Clause 1, which is an unreasonable Clause, and I am very glad it is going to be deleted. In regard to Clause 2, dealing with the subsidy, the only question I would raise there at the present time is as to whether this country is in a state at present to pay any subsidies. This is the cheapest way that we are providing houses at the present time; there is not the slightest doubt about it. You have been giving a number of houses at a reasonable price, but I am afraid they have not been obtained at a reasonable price where subsidies have been given to local authorities. I put a question to the Prime Minister yesterday, which was answered by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health, and. it appears that there are some cases in which houses are being built and rents demanded of 25s. a week, that 7s. a week is the rate put on them, and after all that the taxpayer and the ratepayer have to find £80 a year to keep those houses going. The country at present cannot afford it, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will seriously give his attention to the question of subsidies, not only to private builders, but all round. The deletion of Clause 3 will have very little effect, but it will be necessary for the right hon. Gentleman to repeal Clause 5 of the Housing (Additional Powers) Act, 1919, before we can get relief for what is miscalled luxury building. I had a man come to me a day or two ago, and he said, "What are you doing with, regard to these commercial buildings? I started building a factory, I got up to the first floor with brickwork, and then the London County Council came along and said that I could get no further unless I used concrete. I want more bricklayers, and I cannot do it. They could not agree to it. What happened? We had 50 people at work on that building, but we discharged them until such time as they came to a reasonable decision." You will see how this adds to unemployment, and it has been adding to unemployment in London very greatly during the last six months, and I am very glad to hear that the right hon. Gentleman can see his way to mitigate this very serious state of affairs that has existed.
I now come to the Clause which has been so glossed over by the Minister, with regard to raising loans to pay interest. This created a great deal of trouble upstairs, and I think it will want strengthening even now in some ways. Then we come to Clause 9, which I think wants strengthening with Parliamentary control. I am not satisfied that "the Minister may, with the approval of the Treasury," and I think Parliamentary control is wanted there. With regard to Clause 10 (Subscriptions by local authorities to local savings committees), there is wanted some limitation as to what they can spend. The Libraries Act has, we know, been of great advantage to the country and to local authorities, but it has got a limit upon it, and consequently it has been economically administered. Therefore, I hope in this case we shall put a limitation upon the expenditure that may be made by the local authorities in dealing with these local savings committees. During the War these local savings committees did a lot of good work, and I am not going to say a word against them, but in many cases they spent more money than they should have done, and that is why I am keen on seeing some limitation put upon them. When the right hon. Gentleman introduced his Bill some weeks ago, I intended to go into the measure rather thoroughly, but I see we have got a different Minister and a different spirit, and in these very serious times, when we cannot afford to be as liberal as we were before, it is very important that we should have a Minister who knows something about business and who is able to come to this House and say that certain of these Clauses are not necessary. It is interesting that he is ready to see that some of that legislation, that we passed in such a great hurry and so late at night, shall be done away with. Legislation done after midnight is not worth much, and here is an object lesson in regard to it, that in a very few months we are going to repeal some of it. I am glad this has come on at a reasonable hour, and I hope we shall give a Second Reading to the Bill, with a clear understanding that in Committee there are many points that will want amending.
I am sorry that the Minister is going to withdraw Clause 1, which gives power to local authorities to hire houses for housing the people. I do not know whether the Minister is going to treat our people differently from what we treated our Allies, the Belgians, when they came to this country. We hired some of the very best houses in the country in order to house the Belgian refugees, and to make them as comfortable as we could while they were here. I think the Government ought to show the same consideration for our people who are huddled together in hovels and in slums. I was in Tunbridge Wells the other day for a holiday, and heard in the street a bricklayer say to a woman "I am leaving Tunbridge Wells to-night because I cannot keep two homes; that is, lodging here and keeping a home in another place, because I cannot get a house here to live in." Yet there are hundreds of houses which could be hired by the local authority to house the people decently in Tunbridge Wells. That is the case all over the country. I hope the Minister himself will reconsider his decision before withdrawing Clause 1, so that we shall be able thoroughly to discuss the matter in Committee.
With regard to Clause 2, dealing with the subsidy, I have been informed—how far it is true I cannot say, but I think the Minister will be able to make inquiries—that this subsidy is granted to some contractors, and after the houses are built they sell the houses, and the £250 or £230 subsidy they obtain is not taken into account in the selling price of the house, so that they make a profit on the building and also put the subsidy granted by the Government into their own pockets. I hope the Minister will look carefully into that point. The second point is, that where the subsidy has been granted and the house costs £750, let us say, and the subsidy is £250, which makes £1,000, they charge the rent on the £1,000 and not the £750, which is the real cost of the house before the subsidy has been granted by the Government. That is another point I hope the Minister will look into before we go into Committee. With regard to Clause 8, dealing with the Public Works Loan Commissioners, we want the Minister to give the local authorities the best facilities for these loans, before giving them to private contractors or public utility and other societies.
I have another complaint, and a very serious complaint, to make in reference to the regulations that are issued from the Ministry. I have a case here of a Mr. Ponsford. I will give the Minister the address and the name of the village. He was a very thrifty bricklayer. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I hope some contractors will take note of this, because he did not go walking about with his hands in his pockets getting fat. During his spare time he built a house, for which he borrowed £350, having had £50 to start with. The house is a six-roomed house, and he has a certificate of completion granted by the Council. Building it himself, the house has only cost him £400, whereas contractors to-day would charge £1,000 for building the same house.
Can the hon. Gentleman tell us how many bricks that bricklayer laid per day?
Probably he laid more bricks because he was working for himself, and I think he did quite rightly.
Did that man do all the bricklaying himself, and was the cost of his wages included?
He had carpenters and joiners and also the assistance of labourers.
Did he do the whole of the brickwork himself?
From the information I have received, he did the whole brickwork. This is the point I want to bring before the Minister. If our Friends on the other side, say, erect a house with the labour of someone else, they would get a subsidy, but simply because this man did not come within the red tape regulations issued by the Ministry, he did not get a single penny. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I do not know. The reply was that he did not come within the regulations. I say regulations are bad which will not encourage something of that kind, because there are many bricklayers in the country who would probably do exactly the same thing. It would be a relief to the Ministry, and we would get the houses built. I hope the Minister will take note of it, and see that this man gets fair play and receives his subsidy.
Did he commence, unfortunately, before the Act was passed?
He has built it since the Act was passed, I believe. I thought it was a public duty to bring this case before the House. I hope the Minister will encourage this type of building as much as he possibly can. I am very sorry to hear the Minister say that he is going to withdraw the Clause about luxury building. I hope he will not do it until the Ministry have completed their work, because as soon as this unfortunate lock-out is over, probably things will get to their normal condition, and we shall require all the bricklayers and builders in the country in order to produce the houses that are required for the working-classes. Speaking for myself, it is a deplorable thing to see how the people are housed. To-day they are housed like a lot of sardines in a box in some places. We expect great work from the Minister in view of the experience and knowledge of industry which he brings to the Department. I remember the Prime Minister once telling the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) that you cannot feed Europe on words from the dictionary I want to remind the Minister that you cannot build houses on the Prime Minister's perorations. These people do want the houses, and I hope now that the right hon. Gentleman has gone to the Ministry we shall see some practical work done to solve this problem.
The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has done a real service in bringing forward the case of the bricklayer he has mentioned. I think he is perfectly right in saying that that man is entitled to a subsidy. It is a remarkable instance of the conditions prevailing in the bricklaying trade, and the output of the average bricklayer, that this man had so much time over from his ordinary work of bricklaying—I presume under a Government scheme—So little was he exhausted by what the Bricklayers' Trade Union regard as the maximum work a bricklayer can do, that he actually built the whole of a house in his spare time. I must say, of all the comic stories ever told to this House, it is the most amusing, and I hope it will be recounted far and wide as showing the conditions under which we live at the present time. A bricklayer employed under a Government scheme is, in his spare time, able to build a house, and quite rightly demand a subsidy for it. I hope the result of this instance having been made public will be to encourage other bricklayers employed under public schemes to do the same thing, and then we shall arrive at this advantageous position, that even if it is not possible for the trade union to encourage their members to build houses and equip them cheaply under Government schemes, at least as private individuals and private capitalists they may be able to do it in their spare time.
With regard to what the right hon. Gentleman has said, I think he has met extremely fairly those who differed from his predecessor last Session, and I am speaking, I think, on behalf of others who were in the Committee upstairs, when I say that we are very pleased with the way in which the right hon. Gentleman has met the objections we put forward then. Some of the proposals, as for example, Clause 1, do not meet, I think, with the approval of the majority of the Government's supporters in this House. They might meet with the approval of hon. Members opposite, but after all, Governments are kept in power by the votes of their supporters. That is an obvious truism, and, therefore, the supporters of the Government have a right to demand that the Government's policy shall be framed in accordance with the wishes of its supporters, and the mere fact that there, is considerable indignation on the part of the Labour party and others on that side at the Government having dropped this Clause, is the best evidence that they have taken the right action. Consequently, this Bill will have a very much easier passage through Committee than the Bill introduced last Session, and I believe it will be beneficial. But there are things which are required, as the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, in respect to the subsidy. Owing to the promise given—I think rather rashly given—to private builders of a subsidy, about which I have never been enthusiastic, I think the Bill had to be produced. I am glad the right hon. Gentleman has taken the action that he has done, and I desire to thank him personally and, I think, also on behalf of hon. Friends. If what he means by the deletion of Clause 1 is that he himself will move its deletion, and use all possible influence to get it deleted, well and good.
I only rise to make an allusion to three Clauses of the Bill. The Noble Lord who has just sat down said he was never enthusiastic about the subsidy to private builders. It is rather difficult to be enthusiastic about any scheme for housing under the present circumstances. But I do think we have seen in practice that the scheme of subsidising the private builder has been the most successful of any of those which have been put forward. Not only has it restored, or done something to restore, what had become a dead industry to a living one, but it has done away with all those difficulties about rent such as inevitably follow upon the schemes of the local authorities.
I should not like the hon. Gentleman to think that I was suggesting that it was not necessary to introduce a subsidy; I only wished to suggest that I was not very enthusiastic in the sense that none of us like it.
I quite understand the position of the Noble Lord and I entirely agree with him. The particular point I wanted to raise on this Clause was whether the Minister could not see his way to extend the Regulations so that the subsidy might be given to smaller houses than those which are now comprised within the limits of the Regulations. I put this question to his predecessor in office and his reply to me was that the proposal was an attractive one, but he was afraid it might be difficult to prevent over-crowding in the small houses. I would, however, suggest that it is not more difficult to prevent over-crowding in small houses than in large ones. There exists that danger in every kind of house at this time owing to the excessive demand for accommodation. You will have to trust to your medical officers of health to carry out their duties and see that over-crowding does not take place.
What I want to submit is this: that there are a certain number of childless couples, of old people, and of single women living together who are now compelled to take a full-sized house because there is no other house available. If houses of the smaller size that I refer to could be given, not the full, but a much smaller subsidy, £100 say, so that a certain number of these smaller houses could be put up with just sufficient accommodation for people of the class to which I refer, it would automatically set free a certain number of houses they at present occupy and which thereupon would take a larger number of persons, and in general a full-sized family. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give his attention to this matter. I have some reason to know that there are plans in existence now for houses which could be started immediately if only this subsidy could be provided. It does seem a pity that we should have the Regulations too strictly limiting the subsidy, and so preventing there being some contribution made to the smaller class of house.
Just a word about Clause 8, which is the Clause that enables assistance to be given to Garden City Associations. I have just been presiding over a Departmental Committee which has reported to the right hon. Gentleman upon the principle that should be followed up with respect to unhealthy areas. There are considerable limitations to the advantages of these garden city suburbs of great towns. You build, say, a large village which is simply in effect sleeping accommodation for the people who are working in the towns; thereby you add to the difficulties of travel which is already congested in many cases, especially in London. There are many factories in London without any particular reason for being situated where they are. The work of these could be carried on just as well twenty or thirty miles from the Metropolis. There are great advantages in the idea of starting a certain number of garden cities, satelite cities as they have been called, in certain districts around the Metropolis where the people could live in proximity to the factories in which they work.
A great difficulty about garden cities is this: You have got to start them, so to speak, in the prairie, and you cannot expect people to go there in a general way, for they must live where they can get to their labour conveniently, and also where the employers can get labour conveniently. Nor can you expect people to build a large number of houses in a prairie if there is no guarantee that people will go there to live. I want to get the two things started together. That is to say, that money should be lent to the associations to enable them simultaneously to erect houses and to get the factories to come in. There is only one criticism on this Clause, and that is in Sub-section (2), the limitation of the power to make advances ceasing after three years from the passing of the Act. For my part, I do not understand what is the object of this limitation. It is not, obviously, a question of finance. That difficulty in the future will be less than now, and I should like to know the reason for the limitation. I hope this matter will be considered in Committee and, unless some good reason for the limitation is shown, that it will be withdrawn.
The only other Clause on which I want to say a word or two is the one which has already been alluded to by the hon. Member opposite, which permits local authorities to contribute to the local savings associations. I do not object to the local authorities contributing to these savings associations since they are now permitted to borrow up to, I think, one-half of the amount raised locally in this form. I can quite see that they have a direct advantage in encouraging savings associations of this kind. I agree with the hon. Member that there ought not to be unlimited power in this matter. If the whole of the expenses can be got out of the local authority it is quite certain that you will not get them from any other source. I do not object to the contribution being made, but I think some limitation should be put upon it, and if it were provided that such contributions should not exceed one-half of the total expenses of the association there would be then some guarantee that the rest of the money would be provided elsewhere, and, therefore, an efficient watch and guard kept over undue extravagance in the expenses.
I just desire to say how much we in Ireland appreciate the way in which this Bill has been drafted in reference to our country as compared with what was called the omnibus Bill of last year. To use an Irish way of expressing it, the only reference in that Bill to Ireland was to be found in Clause 26, Subsection (2), which said:
There were two Amendments on the Paper by representatives of Ireland on the Report stage. One had reference to the possibility of using Ireland's share of the grant connected with the housing scheme for the purpose of building houses, the certificates being granted by urban authorities. The other was the proposition that the rural authorities should be able to give the certificate. That question was as to which of these two Amendments should be accepted. The Amendment in regard to the rural councils' certificates had been put first on the Order Paper, with the result that the Government accepted that Amendment, and when the Bill passed through its various stages in this House, and another place, that was the Amendment accepted. The Bill was printed in that form, namely, that the rural districts should have power to grant these certificates for the purpose of building houses.
For myself, and I think for all my colleagues, we would have preferred that the urban authorities should be the authorities to grant these certificates, they having more control over that kind of trade. In the Housing Bill now presented to the House for Second Reading a change has been made, and I think it is a very satisfactory change. It is to be found in Clause 11, which applies the Act to Ireland with various specified modifications. Sub-section (3) of this Clause says:
The meaning of that is, so far as I can understand it, that in the first place the local authority referred to is the urban sanitary authority. Our arguments a year ago were that a great many urban districts in Ireland were so congested that were they given permission they would be able to give certificates to public utility societies and to private persons to erect houses in the rural areas contiguous. So far as I can see, that is exactly how the Bill has been drafted this time, and we appreciate that rearrangement. It seems to us a much more satisfactory way of dealing with the question. By this Sub-section I have no doubt whatever that the urban sanitary authorities in Ireland will be able to use this Bill to a very satisfactory extent, and where these areas are crowded out, and it is impossible to erect houses in the form desired by the Local Government Board, it will be possible to take ground immediately outside, in the rural districts, and erect houses in conformity with the Board's Regulations. I do not know if the House is aware that the Local Government Board of Ireland have peculiar ideas, and, I think, very correct ideas, that is to say, that when they do build houses they will not build them as before, jumbled up together, but they will build so many to the acre, and in a much more sanitary way than they have done in the past. For these reasons I appreciate the way this Bill has been introduced, and I hope when it goes up to the Committee we shall have the advantage of some Irish representatives who will be able to look after the interests of Ireland and assist in the passage of the Bill.
The Noble Lord opposite (Earl Winterton) has expressed his undisguised satisfaction at the changed attitude of the Ministry of Health, and seems to be congratulating himself upon the capitulation of the Government to the views which he and his friends have advocated in Committee and in this House. Some of us would be inclined to deplore the policy of reaction foreshadowed by the present Minister, as compared with the policy of his predecessor. We have been told that we have now got a new Minister and a new spirit, but that is something which we on this side entirely deplore. It may be true that we cannot go on spending money in subsidies and in other ways, but this House has already afforded millions of money for excessive armaments for expeditions to Mesopotamia, and expenditure in Russia, and the only thing we are now asked to economise upon is housing, and the health conditions of our people. I think it is deplorable that such a spirit should be triumphant, marking a gross reaction so far as some of us are concerned.
The Minister of Health suggested that the need for this Bill is not so great as it was last year when it was introduced. Those in touch with large industrial areas know that the need for houses is as great and as crying as ever it was. I do not know whether my own town is more unfortunate in this respect than other industrial centres, but I know when the census was taken two years ago as to the need of housing in my own district, we were 3,000 or 4,000 houses short of what is necessary to provide decent accommodation. I regret we have not yet got 300 towards the 3,000 houses which are absolutely needed, and yet we are told that the need is not so great, that apparently we have passed the crisis, and that we can now hold our hand as to what the municipalities shall do. I say that the need is as great to-day as ever it was, and we cannot afford to economise upon housing with this new spirit of reaction. The right hon. Gentleman gave an instance of the action of another place on the question of houses put up by private enterprise. He said that last year these houses were being passed at the rate of 2,000 and 3,000 per month for subsidies, but his predecessor's Bill was thrown out and the building of those houses ceased, and many thousands of houses have been lost owing to the reactionary policy shown in another place.
If that delay has taken place, similar delay is taking place amongst municipalities because of the uncertainty as to what the change of Minister means with regard to the responsibility of the Government. Municipal authorities are in doubt as to how far the policy of the previous Minister of Health who announced that he was going to make an effort to build a new England is going to be redeemed by the new Minister. When I notice the action which the new Minister is taking in mangling and curtailing the Bill of his predecessor by offering to drop Clause 1, and another Clause dealing with luxury building, I begin to wonder how far this policy of reaction is going, how far the new Minister is going to undo the excellent spade work of his predecessor, and how far the Government will redeem their pledges to find the money for building municipal houses. We all agree that the principle of subsidising is wrong, but we have to deal with the aftermath of the War, and as the Government made clear in their pledges, and the Bill which they introduced in 1919 dealing with houses, the only way to meet the tremendous shortage of houses is by means of a subsidy. This House confirmed that finding, and therefore it is up to this House and the Government to redeem the pledges which were given in the Bill of 1919. I hope the right hon. Gentleman and the Government are going to stand by those pledges, and I trust local authorities will be able to go forward without the fear of being let down by the new Minister This feeling of doubt in their minds is holding up the building of houses. We were told by the Minister of Health that something like 500,000 houses were needed in 1919 to make good the shortage. The right hon. Gentleman's predecessor made a survey showing that at least 500,000 houses were necessary, and we want to make sure that the pledge the Government gave to build those Houses will be redeemed.
Surely the hon. Member does not suggest that there is anything in this Bill which affects that pledge. It would be serious if the impression got abroad that the Government were weakening over this matter.
The Minister of Health has suggested giving way in Committee with regard to various Clauses, and he has invited the Noble Lord opposite and those who think with him to move Amendments to repeal the luxury building Clauses. It is also suggested that we should curtail these subsidies, and I am making an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman not to give way to any further to the claims made by the Noble Lord and some of his friends that there should be a repeal of certain sections of the original Act of 1919. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will assure local authorities that they may go on with their schemes, and that they need not fear that the Government will not honour their pledges. With regard to luxury building, I appeal to the House to think twice before they repeal what has been a most valuable power in the hands of local authority. I have already mentioned that the need for houses in my own district is as great as ever it was, and the few thousand houses which have been put up all over the country is nothing near the half million which are needed.
With regard to luxury building, it is true that bricklayers and labourers are now more plentiful, but I would like to ask if materials are plentiful. I was reading only in to-day's Press of a local authority in my own district which had to hold up their work because they could not get the bricks necessary to build the houses. There is a tremendous shortage of bricks in the country and of other materials. Labour may be plentiful, but bricks and other material are not plentiful, and therefore it is necessary that local authorities should have the power where it is proposed to build cinemas and theatres and other luxury buildings to postpone them in order that the bricks which would otherwise be used up in this way may be used for the purpose of erecting more houses. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to think twice before he agrees to the repealing of pro- visions which have been most useful to many local authorities with regard to providing extra materials for houses instead of allowing those materials to be used for luxury buildings.
I am sorry to hear that the right hon. Gentleman is going to drop Clause 1, which permitted local authorities to hire buildings, because the need for housing to-day is as great as when the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor introduced this provision. Thousands of houses are now being kept empty because they are possibly wanted to be sold at a higher price, or for storing furniture, or perhaps for a country residence for two or three months in the year for somebody who already possesses a town house. I submit that it is very necessary that where houses are being withheld from use as dwelling-houses the local authorities should have power to hire them, and, surely, there is nothing unreasonable in that. During the War when there was a shortage of food and other necessaries, the State commandeered goods and distributed them equally, and we were rationed. During the coal trouble everyone is rationed, and if that is good with regard to coal and food, surely it is equally good with regard to houses. So long as houses are not occupied I think it is desirable that the local authorities should have the power to make the greatest use of them by hiring. I do not see why you should differentiate in this respect between a mansion and a cottage. Why should one man have two or three houses while very often four or five families are crowded into one house, as is the case in thousands of instances?
One of the main causes of unrest in the country is the miserable housing conditions many of our workers have had to put up with for so long. The right hon. Gentleman should do everything in his power to increase the available facilities for houses, and this would help to relieve some of the distress existing today. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not agree to reduce the size of the houses which qualify for a subsidy, because the difficulty to-day is for men with families to find houses anywhere. The men with large families require more immediate relief than those who have only one or two people depending upon them. I hope when we get into Committee the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider the pledge he has given to drop some of these Clauses, and instead of passing an emasculated Bill, I trust we may have one that will do something to remedy the tremendous shortage of houses which exists to-day.
I join with other hon. Members in recognising that there is no occasion for congratulation upon any of the measures that have to be taken at the present moment in connection with housing. We cannot feel any confidence in the present and immediate future in regard to the measures that have to be taken for supplying our housing needs, because we are in a melancholy degree behind the requirements of the nation, and yet we are in the position where the costs are inordinately high, and we are building on a falling market. That means that any building we have to do at the present time is bound to be vastly out of proportion not only to what men can pay, but still more to what men will be able to pay in one, three, or ten years' time, and it is impossible to estimate and provide against the excessive loss to the State that will be incurred. First of all, I wish to emphasise a point which has not been sufficiently appreciated, either in this House or by the general public, in regard to the need for houses, and as that must be the basis of the Housing Bill I hope I shall be allowed to emphasise this point.
Wrong use is being made of a statement in the Report of the Registrar-General, that in addition to the defective houses we only need for the requirements of the increased population during the past decade, 140,000 houses. That has again and again been quoted in the most erudite quarters—the most intelligent and informed quarters—as if it were a suggestion by the Registrar-General that only 140,000 houses are required; yet everyone who knows anything about housing is aware that the lack of housing is due not to the increase of population mainly, but to the necessity for replacing houses that wear out in course of time. May I just put, briefly, the mathematics of the case? Inasmuch as there are, roughly, between 7,000,000 and 8,000,000 residential houses in England and Wales and the average life of a house may be reckoned at the most at 100 years, the Treasury will not allow more than 60 year loans, it follows that we want from 70,000 to 80,000 new houses every year, and seeing that until the assisted housing schemes were started a year or so ago there had for the past ten years practically been no building done, the housing arrears for England and Wales must amount to 800,000 houses. Therefore I may say that what has been done by assisted housing schemes has only been a drop in the ocean. There is a shortage for the United Kingdom of nearly 1,000,000 houses at the present time, and that figure is much nearer the exact state of affairs than the figure suggested by inferior and unintelligent references to the Report of the Registrar-General. We have consequently appalling arrears to make up.
I am afraid the criticisms which are levelled against the Government housing schemes are levelled from one point of view only. There are those who criticise the rents charged as being too high. I quite admit that the rents are put too high for the pre-War cost of living, but they are not too high, so far as the London County Council operations are concerned, to be afforded by those for whom the London County Council cater, although I admit they are quite as high as they can be put. We are making every effort, and I am bound to say that the Minister of Health is urging us to make every effort, and rightly so, to revise our rents upwards, and to see if we cannot extract more money as rental from those for whom we are providing houses. I do not think we can do so, generally speaking, for the rents are already very high. But even so, we come to this appalling position, that the rents paid only cover from one-third to one-half of the cost of the houses. That is the share of the burden which the tenant pays. The remainder falls upon the State in one way or another, and yet we have many influential men, philanthropists and representatives of labour, who say that the Government should bear the whole of the cost of the houses. I have just returned from a debate in the London County Council, in which this was definitely stated by the mover of an amendment to a report which I had the honour to submit, and if that is the position which is to be taken up, it is only putting absurd obstacles in the way of the housing movement, for it would involve the country in an expenditure of something like £1,000,000,000.
Then we get the position taken up by the hon. Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Lorden), who actually suggested that as the cost to the tenant is so high and the cost to the State impossible it would be well, therefore, to stop all housing except such as could be advanced by subsidies. But we cannot do that because of the arrears which have to be made up, and, therefore, we get back to the position that we must steadily plod along our way with the general policy of trying to help where we can, and on general lines work out by private enterprise what is necessary. We must give credit, and full credit, to the work of the Ministry of Health in dealing with this most difficult problem, although the results are still unsatisfactory. I deplore the suggestion made by the hon. Gentleman who last spoke that the new Minister of Health has really brought a spirit antagonistic to housing into the Ministry. Certainly, the right hon. Gentleman has come with a mandate, which the whole country will endorse, to limit as far as possible the immense loss on housing schemes, but I think we shall all join hands in saying that he has no mandate whatsoever to reduce the efforts being made by the Government to meet the appalling shortage of housing. We must not diminish our efforts in that direction, although it may be possible to find some new method of procedure, especially by encouraging private enterprise. I think that is the line which this Bill suggests, and I strongly support subsidies to private builders because that policy has a germ of absolute soundness in it, inasmuch as it helps the small housebuilder to get back to work, and it will enable him to build small houses throughout the country. Although the present subsidy may be £250, that is an amount which may be gradually reduced.
There is this hopeful sign on the horizon, that the costs of building are being reduced. Only this afternoon one of my building friends on the Labour Benches of the London County Council said to me, after the defeat of the amendment which they brought forward, that he believed that in 18 months we should see the cost of building reduced by two-thirds. The House will remember that, in the estimate made by the former Minister of Health for getting a proper rental from his houses, he laid it down that the rent should be charged on the basis that the economic rent would be reached in 1927; that is to say, that the cost would by then have come down to two-thirds of what it is at the present time. I think there is every sign that that will have been reached in the next year or two, and that will materially help us to get back to the economic side of building. In the meantime, we are building on a falling market, and obviously we have to be careful how we build, because it is wasteful to the State. Although it may be said by some that that does not matter, and that the State must meet the claim as a post-War claim, I think that we in this House recognise on all sides that that is not really practical politics. There is only a certain amount of money that can be raised for all purposes, and in the present circumstances only a very small proportion of it will be devoted to housing. Therefore, we must, as far as we can, cut our coat according to our cloth. We shall have to limit the con-, tracts that are made at the present time at such high prices, in the hope that shortly the cost will come down and enable us to go full steam ahead.
In the meantime, we are going steadily ahead. The encouragement of private enterprise shown by Clause 2 of the Bill is valuable. I will not repeat the arguments in favour of the "garden city" Clause, which I moved as an Amendment to the Government Bill of last Session, and which has now been incorporated in this Bill. That is a form of private enterprise which needs encouragement. If it can be encouraged during its elementary stage, its babyhood, through which, as the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. N. Chamberlain) has already said, it is so difficult for a garden city proposal to survive—if during that stage it can be given Government encouragement by way of a loan on secured assets, so that it can be shown to be a good business proposition to manufacturers, then I believe that the whole industrial world, with its desires for industrial efficiency and for improved conditions for the workers, will combine and agree that this is the one scheme to which in the future the captains of industry and the shareholders must look for getting a remunerative return in the new departments of industry to be developed in the future. It is small at present, and of practically no account as regards the burden which it entails upon the State, but it opens the door to an enormous improvement.
I may perhaps be allowed to mention what has seemed to be an extremely unpopular body whenever I have spoken for it before, although it is the biggest municipality that to-day has to do with housing—namely, the London County Council. Its attitude towards this Bill is that it is in favour of the particular Clauses that affect London housing. It supports Clauses 1, 2 and 4, but as regards Clause 1 it only wishes to help the borough councils. Clause 1 proposes to allow borough councils and other authorities outside London to hire houses, but in London that would only apply to the Metropolitan borough councils. It would not affect the London County Council, and therefore it is not considered by the County Council's Housing Committee to be a vital point as regards London as a whole. The Committee are not able to say to what extent it is vital, but, as far as they can see, they do not consider it to be a big contribution to the problem. When Metropolitan borough councils wish to take over houses for use by the working classes they have other powers. They can already buy houses. Clause 1 only relates to hiring, and does not give power to convert. Houses up to the value of—50 a year are already pretty fully occupied in the Metropolis. Clauses 2 and 4, however, the London County Council supports. If the spirit shown by the right hon. Gentleman in moving the Second Reading can be carried through the Committee and the other stages of this Bill, I think that a useful measure will be added to the Statute Book.
I did not hear the Minister introduce this Bill, but, from what I have gathered since, it seems to be proposed to drop so much of it that I am wondering whether it is worth a Second Reading at all. When we were discussing the Vote for the Office of Work some time ago, and there was a lot of talk about its doing building work, the right hon. Gentleman who is now the Minister of Health stood up to that very well, and, I thought, took a reasonable and strong position. I must confess that I am disappointed in him now. I thought that when he came to the Ministry of Health we should have some help and support in getting houses in the country, but I am afraid that a change of Minister means a change of policy on the part of the Government. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] It did appear that the previous Minister was ordered by the Government to do what he could to get houses, and it appears to me that the order has now been given at least to mark time and to hold authorities up from building, without at the same time saying so. The Noble Lord (Earl Winterton) made great fun about a bricklayer who was able to build a house for himself in his spare time. I suppose the Noble Lord's idea of a workman is that he must work at such a rate that he has simply sufficient strength left to get him home in the evening. I should rather have thought that if a man used his spare time in that way it was a thing that ought to be commended. The inference, however, seemed to be that he did very little in the day—that he earned his money by doing nothing, and went home in the evening and built a house for himself. I think that that sort of thing is quite uncalled for. We ought to praise a man who does that.
We do.
It appears that Clause 1 is to be dropped. If the Bill goes to a Committee, the Labour party will certainly oppose that, and will fight for the retention of the Clause. There is no reason why a house, because it is a large house, should be kept empty when there is so much overcrowding as there is to-day.
Clause I only applies to houses of a rateable value of £40 a year, and therefore large houses do not come under it.
The point is that, if a house is empty in these days of overcrowding, when the health of the people is suffering, it ought to be brought into use, and the health authorities everywhere ought to have the power to force these houses into use, whatever their size. There seems to me, in these days, to be no excuse for empty houses anywhere, whatever their size or rateable value may be, and we shall certainly fight for the retention of that Clause when the Bill goes to a Committee. What is left in the Bill, so far as I have been able to see, is the subsidy to private builders. We are not opposing that. We opposed it at the beginning on principle, believing that where subsidies were paid the people who subsidise ought to have some voice. We are not opposing it to-day, but we say that, when subsidised houses are built, there ought to be some safeguard that only a certain rent should be charged for them, and only a certain price if such a house were sold. Very few houses have been built under this subsidy scheme for the people to live in themselves. They have been built by private builders, and the Report we had when the Committee was sitting before was that very large profits had been made out of these houses, and we think there ought to be some limit to this so long as the Government are subsidising houses of this kind. We think it a reasonable thing that some such safeguard should be put into the Bill.
Another hon. Member wanted more small houses. My information and experience is that, especially in the older places, there are sufficient small houses already, and in those small houses there are very many people who would be very glad to move into larger ones if they could and leave the small houses for other people. I went to see some houses a fortnight ago which have been built by my council, some of them very reasonable and very good houses. On the very best part of the site—I was very surprised at that—they were building one of the types that is sanctioned. In fact, it is the plan of the Ministry. I do not know whether they call it Class A or Class B now. They are very small. If anything is wanted smaller than that I should be very much surprised. In fact, it is one of the houses that is an eye-sore at present. In spite of the great expense and the difficulties the nation is in, I do not think we ought to build anything that we are ashamed of in a matter of 10 years when we look at these miserable little hovels, which are hovels when they are being built. Instead of the cry for smaller houses, we ought to have better houses. It will be interesting to find how much is left in the Bill after the statement which has been made by the Minister to-day. Houses are wanted badly as far as my information goes. I am getting complaints from many councils. I am trying to arrange a deputation from one of the councils in my constituency which has been put off on various excuses time after time. There is not a single house started yet, notwithstanding the professions of the Government that they wanted so many houses. This is in a new area where there is a very large colliery and there is not half sufficient housing accommodation, but they are put off with one pretext and another, and even the foundation stones are not laid yet. They have made the roads, but nothing further has been done, and they are put off apparently with the idea that the cost of building will go down and the longer they are kept without houses the cheaper it will be to build them by and by. If that is the policy of the Government it would be more straightforward to say so. The fault at present is put on the local councils, but it is entirely with the Ministry, and it would be more straightforward and more commendable if they said, "We are against it for the moment and we are going to wait, and we will not start any further houses until prices come down." We should then know exactly where we are. I take it we shall not oppose the Second Reading of the Bill however little is left in it, but it is a very small thing that is left and is scarcely worth a Second Reading.
I very much regret that the right hon. Gentleman has thought fit to surrender so very much that was material and important in this measure, when it first came before the House. There is something very ironic in the congratulations he received from the Noble Lord (Earl Winterton) on the fact that he had met him and his group very fairly. Those are expressions which one might readily accept from the Commander of an Army who received the capitulation of a town to which he has been laying siege, because there is no doubt that everything that was contested when the Bill first came before the House has been given up and surrendered on this occasion by the Minister of Health. Of course, it is very natural because we are living in a period of reaction from the excessive State control and interference which held sway a short time ago. That reaction is a very healthy one in many ways, but it is a great mistake if you allow a redaction to become a panic, and I am afraid the Government on many important features of this measure have been very much on the run from the beginning. That is particularly the case with regard to Clause 1, and I should like to add my protest against the threatened elimination of this Clause from the Bill. I hope before it becomes law the House will have an opportunity of expressing its opinion as to the wisdom or unwisdom of retaining that Clause. We have heard expressions of satisfaction and pleasure, with which the House no doubt had much sympathy, that the Minister of Health is a business man. But commercialism is not enough, if I may parody a famous phrase, and we have a right to expect, and no doubt we shall see in the right hon. Gentleman, not merely great business ability, but also that sympathetic understanding and appreciation of what the conditions of the people are which we have every right to look for in a Minister of Health.
With regard to Clause 1, the condition of affairs in our great cities is such that it is really very difficult to see why it should be dropped. I get letter after letter from ex-service men and others who cannot for love or money obtain housing accommodation in my constituency or anywhere near it. The only thing that is more pathetic than those letters is the letters which one receives from men who cannot get work. It is almost as hard on a man not to be able to find a home for his family as it is not to be able to find a job. The result is very great overcrowding. In all the suburban districts of Manchester, at all events, and I believe in other great industrial centres also, the overcrowding is gross, and there is no hope in the present condition of affairs of seeing that overcrowding rectified in the near future. Although they have at present nearly 3,000 labourers at work on building schemes, the Housing Committee of the Manchester Corporation frankly say they see no way whatever of meeting the shortage of houses in the course of the next five or ten years. The effect of this overcrowding does not end merely with the fact that the houses are too full of families. There are few things more trying in the world than a long engagement, and young men and women cannot get married at present because they have nowhere to live. If there is anything more trying than a long engagement it is to have to live with their parents-in-law, and when they do get married in nine cases out of ten in the poorer suburban districts of Manchester, young couples have to live either with the husband's or the wife's people, and everyone knows how disintegrating that influence is. Of course, also, it tends to keep down the normal rise in the population. Those are social evils. The question I should like to address to the right hon. Gentleman is this: Is it a good thing for the State that men and women who live in these overcrowded districts, where they cannot get houses to live in, should see, week after week and month after month, houses in the same street remaining unoccupied? We shall be told, and I think very truly told, that these cases are comparatively rare, but that does not alter the question, because whether you put the question in the form of: "Is it good for men and women to see these things?" or "Is it ever good for men and women to see these things?" the answer is the same. It is the principle that is at stake. It is not the issue as to whether there are ten, or a hundred or a thousand or twenty thousand such cases. This is one of the causes of social unrest. In my own Division this question of the empty house, I believe, originated. There were scenes of very great disorder, and the streets, instead of being "avenues for the passing and procession of a happy people," became places where there were tumultuous and disorderly mobs, who were out for dispossessing the caretakers and seizing by force the empty houses. The reason is, that the poor man's hardship is the demagogue's opportunity, and there are plenty of people at the present time who are only too glad to turn to their own political advantage the social ills and disabilities and grievances under which the poor suffer.
The objection to this Clause and to the whole policy which is embodied in the Clauses which the right hon. Gentleman has been persuaded to withdraw, rests upon the undiluted individualism which is preached by a very large school of political thought in this country. That school of individualism cannot, surely, commend itself to the considered judgment of those who have lived in big towns and amongst poor people, because if you are going to accept laissez faire as a canon by which every State should guide its conduct, it simply means that you are going to allow the strong to exploit the weak, and the rich to grind the faces of the poor, and you will see a return of the worst evils of the early nineteenth century. The whole history of civilisation in recent times has been a protest against that philosophy of life. We have had Usury Acts, Factory Acts, Adulteration Acts, and Merchant Shipping Acts. All these Statutes are a perpetual protest against the idea of letting things alone and letting the weak go to the wall. The position of a man who has a house empty in a street among a population starving for housing accommodation is very similar to that of the man who hoards food supplies in the midst of famine, or of a profiteer who tries to gain inordinate advantage either from his capital or from his labour, or from any asset which he possesses at a time when there is enormous public need of those assets. That is an unmoral act, and this first Clause, which I sincerely hope the House will insist upon retaining in this measure before it passes into law, is a protest against this unmoral attitude towards the national life at the present time. If you are going to allow persons who possess articles, whether they are houses or anything else, which for the time being have a monopoly value, to act in this way you are going to foster in England that atmosphere of suspicion and hatred which lies at the root of the pernicious doctrine of class warfare. That atmosphere is responsible for an enormous amount of antagonism between classes in this country to-day, and it is also, as history teaches, a very common precursor of revolution and anarchy. That is the reason why I hope the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider his decision in regard to the first Clause, that he will stick to his guns and not yield, so that this Bill when it passes into law will be not merely the very diluted and attenuated Bill which the opponents of this social policy of health legislation wish, but will be a measure more fitting to the needs of the times and the needs of the country.
This Bill reminds me very much of the old saw:
"When the devil was sick, the devil a saint would be;
When the devil was well, the devil a saint was he."
When the original Bill was brought in the Government were not in a very strong position. They were losing bye-elections. The cry of the people was loud, especially on the housing question, and their militant supporters were rather quiescent, so the Bill was as it was first introduced. It was a little weakened in Committee. Now the situation is different. Thanks to industrial disputes for the moment, and to the panic in all classes, and particularly the middle and upper classes, people have rallied again to the Government, and they feel themselves strong for the moment like an army which has just received a draft of new recruits. Therefore, we have the announcement by the right hon. Gentleman that two very important Clauses, Clause 1 and the Clause dealing with luxury building, are either going to be cut out altogether or very seriously modified. We have had one speech from a supporter of the Government against this procedure. One Member who took the coupon—
I had not the coupon.
More honour to you. At any rate, the hon. Member supports a Government the head of which has promised the people a better land, houses for all, and the rest of it. The real Second Reading speech in introducing this Bill was made by the hon. Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Lorden), who was followed by the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton). Those are the people who are laughing with joy at the triumph that they have gained against the really useful Clauses of the Bill. The right hon. Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury) is really entitled to congratulate himself. I am sorry that I cannot congratulate the Minister of Health on the first big Bill he has brought in in his high and important office. We ought to have been told before we are asked to drop Clause 1, how many houses have been built up to date, how many houses have been completed ready for occupation, how many remain to be built, and how much has the number required increased by the ordinary increase of population since this Government was returned, when good authorities said 1,000,000 houses were required. How many more are required now owing to the decay of old houses and the increase of population?
I hope that, along with the other weaklings of the Government's housing policy, we are not going to cut down further the dimensions of houses. That retrograde process was started by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor. The present Minister without Portfolio (Dr. Addison) started to build decent houses, but as a result of pressure from people who are against social reform because it costs money, and who want the money for ridiculous adventures and militarisms, he cut down the standard size of houses in a disgraceful manner. I hope that is not going to be carried still further, and that while people are unable to get married because there are no houses, and while children of married couples are overcrowded, we shall not waste labour and material in building two-roomed cottages. I hope there will be nothing of that sort. I hope he will not listen to the seductive pleading of those who ask for houses for childless couples and for two single women living together, because that is utterly wrong. What they want is to build little hovels, and so save money. Let us go on building houses with three bedrooms for those people who cannot get married and who would have children if they could only get houses to live in. That is what we have to think of to-day. We have the admission that the number of certificates granted is down to 2,000 per month. That is 24,000 houses a year. At this rate how many years will it be before we catch up with the arrears of house building? But there is a joke in the Bill. It occurs on the back of the Bill. The Bill is presented by the Minister without Portfolio and supported by the Chief Secretary for Ireland, and then there is Clause 11 about house building in Ireland. Why, every day they are blowing up houses in Ireland and burning down the houses of the inhabitants. I had a letter this morning from the owner of a grocer's shop which was blown up. Seven land mines were placed in it, and they were exploded. This was done because of an ambush. The owner was in hospital three weeks when the ambush took place. He is still in bed, but he is supposed to be responsible by this military blackguard.
Are we discussing this question or the Housing Bill?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman is labouring his joke somewhat unduly.
This Bill applies to Ireland. But I do not wish to pursue the matter. I am afraid that I let my indignation carry me away. But what is the use of talking about building houses in Ireland when they are destroying them? I wish to make an earnest appeal on a different subject. I refer to the operations of the building guilds. An hon. Member has spoken of men who are building houses in their spare time and working very hard because they know that they are working for themselves. The building guild idea is simply an extension of that. A little coterie of building operatives get together and put in exceptionally hard work because they are working for themselves. They have been building houses in a very reasonable time. They lay more bricks, on the average, than the ordinary bricklayers, but that is easily understood, human nature being what it is, and they are building houses £200 cheaper than ordinary builders, and very beautiful houses they are. The predecessor of the right hon. Gentleman, to his shame, listened to the master builders, gave in to their pressure, and hampered in every possible way the guild system of building houses. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman is going to adopt a new policy in this matter.
I suppose that he is genuine when he says that he wants to see houses built. He did fine work as President of the Board of Works. He actually built houses, and in many cases £200 and £300 cheaper than ordinary contract prices. I hope that he will keep an open mind about these building guilds, because if he is going to stop this effort of men to set up for themselves in their guilds as builders he will be introducing the finest Bolshevik propaganda that could be imagined into this country. That is the sort of thing—giving into the master builders on one hand, just as you have given into the mineowners on the other—that produces communists in this country.
9.0 P.M.
It is not the 2½d. Pamphlets which are scattered about the country not the speeches at street corners, but it is the dead set against the working classes by the State that is producing communists in this country. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be a little more humane and statesmanlike, and I make an earnest appeal to him to give these Bills a chance. We are going presently, if time permits, to take the Vote on the Order Paper of £2,250,000 for Government buildings, Post Office and Revenue buildings, for which the right hon. Gentleman is responsible because the Estimates were prepared under his regime, and everybody knows—
The hon. and gallant Member cannot go into that matter. He must confine himself to the Housing Bill.
We still have to pay this subsidy which hon. Members have objected to on the ground of economy, and I protest against more Government building than is necessary until we have got more dwelling-houses built, because it is not only luxury buildings on which money is spent but also Government offices. We are building in this city alone one building which is costing £500,000. I hope that these schemes will be held up, as they are keeping up the prices of materials and occupying labour that could be better employed.
As I understand, that is a matter of administration, and we are now on a question of legislation.
Thank you, I do not wish to pursue it. This legislation, I believe, is going to cost about £15,000,000. It will be money well spent, but I think that the amount could be reduced if the Government does not go against the local authorities.
This Debate has ranged over a very large amount of ground and I cannot possibly endeavour to cover all of it, but there are a few salient facts which emerge on which I must say a few words. Some hon. Members seem to have assumed that I am hostile to building. The reasons given for this belief are not very lucid. I have accepted a difficult position as head of a department responsible for housing schemes of enormous magnitude, unparalleled in the history of this or of any other country, costing the taxpayers of the country a permanent sum of staggering amount, and I am to-day introducing a Bill, and hon. Members say that there is little left in it because out of eleven Clauses I propose to drop one which I think of very little value and another which is a mere machinery Clause, and if hon. Members had taken the trouble to read it they would have seen that Clause 3 is merely a machinery Clause dealing with appeals in the case of luxury buildings.
I understood the right hon. Gentleman in introducing the Bill to say that he was going to meet opponents in Committee on this matter, and he must go much further.
A new Clause.
What I said was that we did not want to hamper commercial building. The Clauses which deal with it were introduced when an abnormal amount of building was going on which to-day has almost ceased. A great deal of that building does not interfere with any cottages being built in this country. A great deal of it consists of steel structures. The hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. T. Griffiths) represents the steel men in South Wales, and if he objects to repealing legislation which, in my opinion, tends towards the unemployment of these men, then I am astonished at his action. The hon. Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) said that the Office of Works is to-day spending £500,000 for a building in this city. It is a huge steel structure with concrete facings. Will he tell me that in these days it is a crime to employ men to make steel girders and have concrete made and employ people who have never laid a brick? There is not a single brick in the whole building. I do wish that people would clear their minds on these matters—
You could build flats of concrete.
And give to the subject that amount of study which I have given to it during the last three years.
You can build flats with concrete.
I am not talking about flats. Hon. Members have talked about bricklayers and bricks. I object to their saying that the price of bricks has been raised or that bricklayers have been taken to work on a concrete and steel building on which not a single bricklayer can be employed. We have to recognise the fact that there is very much unemployment. Masons and men of that class are to-day unemployed. We want all the employment we can get for all sections of workers. Such facts have induced me, after, very careful consideration, not, as has been stated, to capitulate to any clamour, but to exercise my own knowledge as a business man of this subject and to repeal a Clause which I think is no longer a necessity—a Clause which was at the time much more a yielding to clamour than the omission of the Clause is a yielding to clamour now. If the Labour party oppose the repeal of that Clause without investigating what it means in the way of employment in steel works and in many other directions, they will be committing a very serious error of judgment against the very people whom they are sent here to represent.
I am not concerned with ducal mansions or with allowing local authorities to house people who do not want to live in the houses provided. I hold no brief for the man who wishes to hold up houses, or for the man who wants to hold up to ransom an empty house. What does Clause 1 do? It enables a local authority to hire compulsorily a house, not exceeding £50 rateable value, that is to say, the present rateable value of a moderate sized dwelling, on the condition that it must not have been occupied for a period of at least three months immediately preceding the date of hire, and that the local authority must hire the house for a period of at least two years.
What I object to very strongly is any attempt at camouflage. Reference has been made to Communism and Bolshevism. I assure hon. Members that if they support proposals that pretend to cure evils but finally cure nothing, they are much more likely to encourage Communism and Bolshevism than if they exercise common sense and do not pretend to do something which they are not going to do. The housing problem is nothing new. I have studied it for many years. As an employer I have endeavoured to solve it, not by subsidies, but by building good houses at low rents. If everyone had followed that course the housing shortage to-day would not be what it is. Employers have not sufficiently recognised the fact that if they start a factory they must provide decent houses in which their workpeople are to live. The burden of doing that is now being placed very largely on the community. The difficulties of the problem and the intensity of it fill me with the greatest apprehension. The scheme we are carrying out is not within sight of the final solution, but nothing is to be gained by trying to pretend that things are what they are not. I am not yielding to panic of any kind, and I think I am the last man who would yield to panic or clamour. I yield only to the dictates of common sense and logic. I hope to be able to obtain for local authorities a reduction in their tenders, as I am doing every day. Who is going to benefit by that? The people who live in the houses, the ratepayers and the taxpayers. Hon. Members can rely on me that I intend to see this housing problem carried through to the best of our ability.
Reference has been made to the guild system. It is a very interesting experiment. I have had the pleasure of meeting a gentleman who is very largely in charge of it, and I have had a talk with him. I have given instructions that what the guilds have done is to be very carefully examined, both as regards workmanship and cost. If the guild system justifies itself it will meet with no prejudice on my part. Quite the contrary.
Hon. Members who speak from the Benches opposite seem to think that I have changed my views. I have not changed. I want this Bill passed. But one word of warning is necessary. What happened last year? We got nothing done, and no doubt some hon. Members were delighted. All kinds of Clauses were put into the previous Bill and the result was nothing. I beg hon. Members to believe that I am as sincere a reformer as any of them. They are not helping the cause of reform by criticising the Minister as a reactionary if he does not accept all their suggestions, or by overloading the Bill to such an extent that he gets nothing done at all. We must have Clause 2 passed, and there are other valuable Clauses. I am quite ready to discuss all points very carefully in Committee, but I hope hon. Members will not oppose my general policy, which is based on the one idea that we have a very important pledge to fulfil. The abandonment of Clause 1 is not going to be of any vital importance, although the hon. Member for Manchester (Colonel Hurst) seems to think otherwise. I see he was returned as a Unionist, but from his speech one would imagine him to be a sort of Socialist—one who might prove a very eloquent and able addi- tion to the Labour Benches. It has been sought to show that there is a great principle involved in this, and hon. Members have, in effect, said, "Let us nail the Red Flag to the mast" on Clause 1. There is no enormous question of principle involved one way or the other. To my mind, it is a Clause likely to do no particular good. The same Clause was in the Scotch Bill, and I am informed it is practically a dead letter there. I want to get this Bill passed into law as soon as possible, and I hope hon. Members will facilitate that by giving it the Second Reading.
Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.
Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
Agriculture (Amendment) Bill [Lords.]
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
This Bill, to which I am asking the House to give a Second Reading, is a very small measure. It only aims at making certain drafting alterations in the Act of 1920. If these particular proposals had come up in Committee or on the Report stage when that Act was being considered, I should probably have simply had to raise my hand and said, "I move," having explained that they were drafting Amendments, because no principle is involved in them. They are designed to carry out what was the obvious intention of the Legislature, but owing to the great hurry with which the final stages of that Act were passed on the very last day of last Session when, as I think you will remember, we had an all-night sitting, one or two obvious errors were made. The wonder is that more mistakes of this kind were not made, having regard to the circumstances. I shall explain to the House what the effect of the Clauses are. The first provision—Clause 1, Sub-section (1)—merely lays down that where arbitration is demanded on a question of rent, either on the demand of the landowner or of the tenant, the method of arbitration to be adopted is that laid down by the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908, as amended by the Agriculture Act, 1920. I think probably everybody believed that to be the method of arbitration intended, but it is not specifically stated, and therefore, for the purpose of removing any doubt which might possibly arise later on, and might be taken to the Courts, I propose to put in this new Sub-section, making it clear that in this case, as in all other cases under the Second Part of the Act of 1920, the arbitration shall be in accordance with the method prescribed by the Act of 1908.
The second Sub-section corrects an obvious verbal error in the Clause dealing with compensation for disturbance from a cottage for a workman who is occupier. It is laid down in that Clause, that if any doubt arises as to whether compensation should be paid, or as to the amount of compensation, the matter shall be referred to the District Wages Committee, and if the District Wages Committee decide in favour of the workman, then the expense to which the workman is put by appearing before the Committee shall be recoverable from the tenant. By the obvious verbal slip to which I have alluded, the words, "by the tenant" were used instead of "from the tenant," and I propose to take this opportunity of correcting it. The third Sub-section deals with a matter of rather greater importance, but again I think it is perfectly clear that a mistake was made and that I am merely trying to carry into effect the intention of the Legislature. It was laid down in the Act of 1920 that compensation should be payable to a tenant farmer in respect of certain improvements as had been the case in the Act of 1908, but certain extensions of the provision of 1908 were embodied. One of these extensions was the addition of the words "whether the improvement was or was not an improvement which he was required to make by the terms of his tenancy" That, so far as it went, was a new advantage and I think a perfectly proper advantage, to be conferred on the tenant farmer, but it was held that this new advantage should only apply in the case of tenancies entered into, on, or subsequent to, the 1st January of this year—that is to say, the date upon which the Act became law. By the drafting, however, as it was finally settled between the two Houses, it appears that limitation of time would be applicable not merely to the benefits conferred by the new words, but to all compensation that might be claimed under the old Act by any tenant. Clearly that was not the intention of the Legislature. It might have the effect of taking away from a man who had entered upon his tenancy before the 1st January, those advantages in the shape of compensation to which he had previously been entitled by the Act of 1908. In order to make it perfectly clear that the limitation of time is only to apply to the new benefits conferred upon the tenant by the Act, I am proposing an alteration in the Schedule which appears in the third Sub-section of this Bill.
I venture to submit to the House that this measure is quite non-contentious. I may tell the House I am very much pressed by people from all quarters—landowners, tenant farmers, associations of tenant farmers and labourers—to introduce other changes which really would be of a material character and would alter the obvious intention of the Act of 1920. I have steadily resisted pressure from all quarters because I wish this to be merely an explanatory and drafting measure. The time may come when it may be necessary to revise the Act. I do not think that time has arrived yet, if it ever does arrive. At all events, this is not the occasion on which to do it. This Bill is quite unambitious in character and is designed merely to correct obvious errors. For that reason I hope the House will give it a quick and easy passage because, if it is delayed, serious difficulties may arise, particularly in the third matter which I have mentioned, where certain tenant farmers may be deprived of benefits to which they are justly entitled.
I am sure the House is grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the explanation he has given of this Bill, which he rightly terms non-contentious. The appearance of this measure to-night and the necessity for it is a proof of the unworkable conditions under which we passed the last stages of the principal Act. So far as I am able to read this Bill it does fulfil the object which the right hon. Gentleman has in view; that is to say, it puts right what would have been a grave injustice had the Act of 1920 stood as it passed into law. The right hon. Gentleman has stated to-night that it may be necessary at some future time to revise the original Act of 1920. I drew attention to that Act at the time as being the worst measure of legislation by reference that had ever passed through this House. This little Bill, with which we are dealing to-night, increases if anything the difficulty of reading the original Act of 1920, and the Agriculture Acts from 1908 to 1920. Under present circumstances, if the agriculturist or the farmer wishes to ascertain the meaning of a particular Clause in the Agricultural Holdings Act he has to apply to a solicitor for assistance. It is quite impossible for him to read these Acts himself and to understand what they mean. I would therefore suggest, in view of the fact that it is very unlikely that there will be any agricultural legislation in the near future, that the right hon. Gentleman should apply his mind to the consolidation of the Acts from the year 1908 to 1921. If he were to do so he would confer one of the greatest benefits upon the agricultural community that it would be possible for him to give. I make that serious suggestion to him. I do not think it would be a very gigantic task, and it would not take him very long. It would enable the ordinary agriculturist to have at hand in a simple form all the laws and legislation intimately concerning the industry in which he is engaged. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will seriously consider that suggestion and that he will be able to submit a consolidated Bill to the House at some date in the future.
I do not want to do anything to prevent the Minister from getting this Bill passed and placed on the Statute Book. After his explanation tonight we shall all agree that anything that can be done towards making the Act workable is desirable. I should like to endorse the remarks of the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Lieut.-Colonel A. Murray) with regard to the need for a consolidating Act. I am sure if the right hon. Gentleman would give his attention to that it would earn for him the gratitude and thanks of all connected with the agricultural industry. These are not men generally who are very gifted in the reading of Acts of Parliament. If they have to keep passing from one Act to another in order properly to understand their position their task is very difficult indeed. I want to ask the Minister whether, in connection with this Bill, he can correct another error which has arisen as far as the Act is concerned. I believe the Act practically covers and embraces the Corn Production Act, 1917. I rather gather that these errors have been detected sufficiently soon to prevent cases arising that would necessitate interpretation by a court of law. I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me that when the Corn Production Act was passed and the 1920 Act was under consideration in this House the idea of the Government and the view of everybody connected with the industry was that persons engaged in agriculture in the way of milkmaids engaged for a few hours in the morning and afternoon, were covered by the term in that Act applicable to labour and covered by the decisions of the Agricultural Wages Board. A case has recently been determined in the courts whereby these people are ruled out. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will see the absurdity of the decision that if it happens that a person is fully engaged on the work of looking after a dairy and does some milking as part of the duties for which she is generally engaged, she shall be within the scope of the Act. If, however, a person works only for two hours in the morning and afternoon she shall be outside the Act. I wish to ask if it is not possible to correct what I am certain is an error, because I do not think the Department itself, the farmers, or anybody connected with the industry desire this anomaly to remain? As this is an explanatory Bill, and as the point I have raised is of a similar character, cannot the right hon. Gentleman indicate the possibility of this question being dealt with and placed in the position in which everybody understood it to be before this decision was given?
I have no quarrel with anything in the Bill, but I have a little quarrel with the Minister for having left some things out of the Bill which he might, by a stretch of imagination, describe as controversial. A good deal of the last Bill was passed under duress, as I think the lawyers call it. It was passed at the very last moment, when we were leaving here at Christmas. I think I challenged the last Division myself, at one o'clock in the morning on Christmas Eve; and we were told, "If you do not accept this, the Bill is lost." Legislation passed under conditions of that sort has no moral sanction whatever, and the Minister would have been quite justified in restoring to this Bill what he was compelled to drop on account of the threat of the House of Lords that unless he accepted their Amendments the Bill was wrecked. Take, for instance, the question of the position of the Scottish Land Courts in the original Bill last year. That was dropped, at the very last moment, owing to the threat of the House of Lords, and I remember the tragic figure of the Secretary for Scotland, standing there, breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the House of Lords, because they had compelled him to swallow the leek. I repeat that legislation passed under those conditions has no moral sanction whatever, and I think the Minister ought to have taken his courage in both hands, even at the risk of adding a little interest to this Bill in the shape of controversy and a little spice from the artistic point of view, I think it would have been right; for otherwise this thing will become as flat as soda water.
Sub-section (3) of this Bill apparently rectifies a rather serious defect in the Act of 1920. There was an Amendment, deliberately moved, I think, in the other House, to make it January, 1921, and that was carried. It escaped the notice of all of us, because we commenced this Bill at half-past eleven at night and sat right through the night and most of the next day. This Bill is the inevitable sequel of the rushing of the Lords Amendments through the House that time of night and all through the next day. We objected strongly that we had not the opportunity of considering many of these Amendments, but the Government, rightly or wrongly, accepted most of them and materially altered the compensation that was due to tenants. The First Schedule of the 1920 Act was calculated to put the pre-January, 1921, tenant in a dangerous position so far as compensation for improvements was concerned, and this Bill apparently puts him in no worse position than he was in under the Act of 1908. One is rather mystified in reading this Sub-section, but the right hon. Gentleman assures us that is so, and so far as I can master this legislation by reference, I think the tenant will enjoy the same privilege, or at least be in no worse position than under the 1908 Act. I raised this matter in the House by questions several times after the Christmas Recess, but I am satisfied now that the tenant is in a moderately safe position, so far as I can understand the Bill. One hopes this will be a warning to the right hon. Gentleman, if he again introduces an Agriculture Bill, to see that we get an opportunity of considering important Amendments before they are rushed through the House at an untimely hour.
I merely rise to say that, so far as the proposal for codification goes, I realise the importance of it. I quite agree that if it be possible it would be a very great advantage to the agricultural community that the various Statutes dealing with agricultural holdings should be codified, as they were in the year 1908. With regard to the other points, I am afraid some of them are controversial. The hon. Member for the Western Isles (Dr. Murray) is very anxious that something interesting should be put in, but we had plenty of interest over the Bill of last year, and I rather want something uninteresting, because, in regard to the difficulty of getting the Bill through in the middle of the night and under duress, I think I suffered as much as anybody in this House, and I have deliberately aimed in this Bill to introduce nothing controversial, no new principle at all, but merely to explain and make clear what was intended by Parliament at the time and to correct one or two obvious errors. It is, of course, open to any hon. Member to put down on the Committee stage such Amendments as they may desire, but I warn them that the Government cannot depart from the principle of keeping the measure quite uncontroversial, as this is not, in my opinion, an opportunity for amending the Act, but merely for correcting the errors that were made.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
Supply [21st April]
Order read for consideration of Ninth and subsequent Resolutions.
Civil Services Estimates
Class I
9."That a sum, not exceeding £167,550, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for Expenditure in respect of the Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens."
10. "That a sum, not exceeding £120,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for Expenditure in respect of Diplomatic and Consular Buildings, and for the maintenance of certain Cemeteries Abroad."
11. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,441,450, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March. 1922, for Expenditure in respect of Customs and Excise, Inland Revenue, Post Office and Telegraph Buildings in Great Britain, and certain Post Offices Abroad."
12. "That a sum, not exceeding £942,350, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for Expenditure in respect of Employment Exchange and Insurance Buildings, Great Britain (including Ministries of Labour and Health)."
Ninth Resolution read a Second time.
I beg to move, to leave out "£167,550," and to insert instead thereof "£167,050."
The effect of this is to move to reduce the Vote by £500, and I do so as a protest against the continued closing of Kensington Gardens. I pass Kensington Gardens almost every day coming to this House, and although at the beginning of the crisis it was covered with huts and canvas dwellings, it is remarkably empty now, and yet it is closed. Whenever we have any trouble in this country, the first thing that is closed is always Kensington Gardens, and it is a great hardship to the poor people who live in Kensington, because the hon. Baronet who represents South Kensington (Sir W. Davison) will bear me out when I say that there is a large working-class population there, and the children suffer in consequence of the closing of the park. I can see no reason why this park should now remain closed, and in any case, if there are just a few forces of the Crown there, I do not see why the park should not be opened in the daytime and closed at a reasonable hour. The persons responsible are much too negligent of the public convenience. We have got to vote an additional £55,350 this year. Hon. Members will note that this is mostly an increase in wages, which is only following the ordinary practice of giving bonuses, and I do not protest against that. The second point to which I object is this. An answer was given to-day to a question put by the Noble Member for Battersea South (Viscount Curzon) containing a proposal that a certain amount of revenue might be got in these parks by allowing the playing of tennis. Hon. Members will be aware that tennis is immensely popular, and that it is a democratic and not expensive game, and I am glad to see it is spreading downwards. It is being taken up by members of the lower middle class, clerks, and artisans to an increasing extent, and it is a most excellent thing. I believe a revenue could be got and a great convenience brought to the hands of the dwellers in this city and in other cities if tennis courts could be laid out in the parks.
They are now.
Not in the London parks.
Yes, in the suburbs and everywhere.
I know the parks very well. I know St. James's Park, Hyde Park, and Kensington Gardens, and they are not so used. I can only refer the hon. Member to the reply given from the Treasury Bench in regard to these particular parks. This is a Vote for Royal Parks, and I understand that in none of the Royal Parks is tennis allowed. I hope the Government will reconsider this. Their excuse that it means permanently enclosing a part of the parks is not valid. A good many of the parks have been closed lately without much protest from the public. Big areas have been allotted to football grounds, and I have no objection to that, but if that can be done, I do not see why tennis courts should not be laid out.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I approve the suggestion of the hon. and gallant Member that the Royal Parks which can be conveniently thrown open to the public in the way he suggests, should be so opened. There are parts of Kensington Gardens and parts of Hyde Park, although I am not prepared to say there are parts of the Green Park, unless one wishes to indulge in an up-and-down game of tennis, because the undulations of the ground there are too variable, but there are certainly parts of the other parks in which this suggestion could be carried out. I hope the First Commissioner of Works, who, we know, has sympathy with this sort of object, will favourably take this into consideration. There is one other question to which reference, I think, should always be made when there is an opportunity to do so, and that is the question of the buildings in St. James's Park. Can the hon. Gentleman in his reply to-night give us any indication whatsoever as to when these unsightly buildings, housing in most instances useless staffs, are going to disappear? I raised the question last year for the first time in this House, on the question of passports. The Passport Office takes up a great deal of space. Time and again it has been shown that the view of this House is that most of that system could be abolished altogether, and, if the Government were to listen to the views of the House in this respect, there would be no longer any necessity for the buildings which occupy the greater part of what was formerly a very beautiful lake. I hope the hon. Gentleman will be able to announce to the House to-night a definite policy with regard to these buildings, and will hold out some hope that they will disappear at the earliest possible moment.
There is one further question to which I should like to refer. Some few years prior to the War there was a very insidious movement on the part of certain people to place statues in the parks, and, in conjunction with my Noble Friend the present First Commissioner, some of us were able to defeat the object that those people had in view. I want an assurance from the hon. Gentleman that there is no present intention of placing any statues in any confines of the Royal Parks. I have heard there are rumours to the effect that there are such intentions. I hope there is nothing in those rumours, or in the rumour I heard the other day that there were to be some alterations made at the top of the Broad Walk in the Green Park. What those alterations are I do not know, but if they are carried out it will involve the opening of the railings at the top of the Green Park, and necessitate taking away two or three of the trees that are growing there℄trees that I was told 10 years ago were dying, but which are flourishing to this day℄and it would also involve making a gravel path in place of the green walk which now runs from the Victoria Memorial up to Piccadilly. I hope he will be able to assure the House there is nothing in the rumour that the hand of the vandal is to play a part in desecrating the Green Park, and, unless he can give us an assurance on these particular points, I shall be glad to support my hon. Friend.
I have been hoping for some months past that I might have an opportunity to draw attention to a very small matter with regard to Hyde Park. We who take the air early in the morning there look upon the Park with great affection, and like to see it preserved, and kept for the benefit of the public. For a great many years I have walked with great pleasure over the Serpentine Bridge, and during the past five years I have seen it has been broken by heavy lorries several times. Some lorry, by mistake, at night misses its way and smashes the balustrade, and it takes months to repair. As that has happened several times during the past five years, I would suggest that the proper and competent authority should look into the question to see whether the channel should be lowered, whether more light should be put upon the bridge rail, and whether, at the entrance to the bridge, some sort of white railing should be erected so as to guide heavy traffic on dark nights, and so prevent it running on to the pavement and breaking the balustrade.
I should just like to supplement the observations made by my hon. Friend, suggesting that permission to play tennis in the Royal Parks should be given. Such playing of the game would be very much to the health of the people and very interesting to the people who walk round about and watch it. It would not interfere in the slightest degree with the use of the parks for any other purpose, and people cannot play tennis in their own backyards. It would not add to the rates and the taxes, and there would be no portion of the ground necessarily cut off. One of the surprises of London to the average visitor, or the man who takes an interest in these matters, is the number of open spaces in so large a city. I think they ought to be taken advantage of and put to the very best possible use and purpose. Tennis provides a health-giving exercise for those who indulge in it. There is nothing to excel tennis, except, perhaps the Scottish game of golf.
Attention has been drawn by several hon. Members to the question of playing tennis in the royal parks. The First Commissioner has very carefully considered this question, and he feels that, however desirable it is to encourage games in parks, such as football, tennis raises rather a different question. Tennis may be made℄one admits at once℄a thoroughly paying proposition, but the wiring off of the spaces required for the tennis courts would undoubtedly take a large portion of the parks usually open to the general public for the use of a comparatively small class of the community. Under these circumstances the First Commissioner feels that it is not possible to grant leave for such purpose. I may say, however, that he is considering℄and has received distinct encouragement in the matter℄the playing of football. It is part of the policy of my Noble Friend shortly to increase these facilities. In regard to the closing of Kensington Gardens, that, of course, is a matter in which the First Commissioner is ruled by the general circumstances of the time and the decision of the Cabinet. But I can assure hon. Members that he is as anxious as anybody to re-open these parks to the general public on the first opportunity. The matter of the Serpentine Bridge, raised by the hon. Gentleman opposite, will be brought to the notice of the First Commissioner.
What about the Green Park?
10.0 P.M.
With regard to that question, I imagine the hon. and gallant Gentleman is referring to certain proposals which may eventually come before this House in regard to the putting up of a War memorial. All I can say at the present time is that when this matter is at a more advanced stage full information will be given, and drawings placed in the Tea Room for Members to inspect. I understand there will be no reduction, but rather an increase in the actual grass space in the park.
Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman give us some explanation about one or two items relating to Appropriations-in-Aid on page 11. I understand that the charge for chairs in these parks has been raised quite recently from 1d. to 2d. At the same time the Appropriation-in-Aid which was £7,000 last year is also £7,000 this year. The charges have been doubled, yet the amount expected to be collected is exactly the same. What is the meaning of the extraordinary drop in the amount received for licences for the sale of newspapers and refreshments? Last year that source of revenue brought in £2,500; this year it is only expected to produce £500, which is just one-fifth of last year. Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman give us some explanation on these two points?
The intimation that has just been given to the House by the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite raises a very important question. A war memorial is apparently contemplated. The scheme is under way, and before long we shall have drawings in the House to inspect. I submit that a war memorial, particularly one in London, is an extremely important scheme to engage upon, and it demands that the whole architectural and sculptural ability of this country should have the opportunity of competing in the designs. I am quite sure that the almost casual intimation that has been given on the subject by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, unless it is fully explained, will occasion a very great deal of apprehension in artistic circles. I really wish to give the hon. and gallant Gentleman the opportunity to-night of saying something a little more explicit on the subject so that there may be no misconception and so that the genuine artistic ability of this country℄of which there is a great deal℄will feel assured that if a great war memorial is embarked upon the whole of that talent shall have the chance of putting forward designs.
In reply to the last hon. and gallant Gentleman (Major Barnes), I understand this is a private war memorial of a unit. It is not a general war memorial. Still, every opportunity will be given to Members of this House to see both the drawings and the whole proposal. As to the question of chairs and licences, the arrangement is that the licensee of the chairs℄for the chairs are run by a licensee℄shall pay not £7,000, but £10,500. That accounts for the extra charge. As to the fall in the sale of newspapers and refreshments, I gather that the running of the kiosks in the parks, owing to the alterations and the various disturbing elements of the time, have not paid their way in the past. It is hoped, however, that as time goes on that matters will improve in the selling of papers and of food.
I should like to ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman one or two question upon this Vote. On page 9 I see under FF Maintenance and Repairs, Unemployment Relief, £50,000. On page 10 I see an item for bonus and £6,070 salaries and wages. Then there is a note saying that the salaries and wages provided for under this head are exclusive of the charges for new works and maintenance. On the same line as bonus I see an item for park-keepers and Metropolitan police, £16,110. There is under the heading of bonus, an item for maintenance of repairs, £52,500. What does that mean? Is that a bonus on maintenance and repairs? There is also an item for maintenance and repairs, unemployment relief £50,000. It seems to me rather curious to put under the heading of bonus, relief for the unemployed. We are spending £50,000 on maintenance and repairs and employment relief, and we seem to be giving these people a bonus of more than 100 per cent. This may be a very necessary provision, but I should like to know whether these maintenance repairs simply consist of digging a hole and filling it up again, or whether the work will lead to some saving of expense in the future of beautifying the pleasure grounds.
I do not know that it is a wise thing to be inciting people to continue a strike by providing people who are out of work in consequence of the strike with money out of the taxpayer's pocket. I remember reading a case at the Tower Bridge police court which was tried either on Saturday or on Monday, in which three men were had up for drunkenness and it turned out that they were in receipt of unemployment dole, and one of them was receiving some other kind of pension or dole from some other generous Department of the State, and all these three people were spending their money in getting drunk. The magistrate made some strong observations and pointed out that as long as these doles were continued so long would these men spend their time at the public house instead of doing an honest day's work. When I find that in addition to giving £50,000 for this particular purpose we are going to give a bonus of another £52,000, I think it is a matter which demands some explanation, more especially now that I understand we are embarking upon a policy of economy. We have now in lieu of an extravagant Minister some cool matter of fact people who, having listened with some advantage no doubt to the advice given by the hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. Bottomley), are going to show us how a business Government can manage the affairs of the nation.
With regard to the question put by the last speaker, under Sub-heads A and D, there is a sum of £5,000 required for war bonus. The original sum taken for unemployment was £50,000, but, owing to a reconsideration of certain details, the amount now definitely allocated stands at £42,500, and if necessary the remainder of the provision will be allocated to works of a similar nature. The whole of this work for the unemployed in the park is being carefully looked into and, as far as possible, they are being employed on works of utility which would have to be done in due course under any circumstances.
What is that bonus of £52,000?
That covers the work and the bonus. The actual bonus is only £5,000, as far as I understand it.
There are two items down for this purpose, one for £50,000 and another for £52,000, making altogether £102,000, and the hon. Gentleman has only accounted for £5,000 and £42,000. I do not object to paying £50,000 for unemployment, but I think the House has a right to ask that all unemployment expenses ought to be accounted for under one Vote. It is not right that they should be divided up and hidden and kept from criticism by being parcelled out under different Votes upon Ministers who are not accountable for dealing with unemployment. All the money we pay for unemployment ought to be included in the. Vote for the Ministry of Labour. We raised the same question in regard to building, and the Government quite rightly gave way and agreed that all building of schools and employment exchanges should be accounted for on the Estimate of the Minister responsible for the work. To me this is quite, a new thing, for we are voting very substantial sums for the relief of unemployment, and they are not placed upon the proper Estimates.
Cannot the hon. Gentleman give some further explanations as to these Votes? Are we to understand that this £50,000 is by way of war bonus to the unemployed, or is that provided for in other ways?
The Office of Works undertook to give employment to men who are otherwise unemployed. They are paid regular wages. The item for the work is £50,000, and that has been reduced to £42,500. The work is carefully supervised and it is all work of public utility.
Why not specify what these works are, and why are they described as relief works? Unemployment relief works are not necessarily works of public utility. The idea appears to be to provide men with some sort of occupation which justifies paying them a dole.
The work in St. James's Park consists of railing and drainage and reconstruction of Birdcage Walk. There is also work at Hampton Court and Richmond Park, the latter involving the reconstruction of roads.
Are there any works in Scotland?
Not that I know of.
Amendment negatived.
Resolution agreed to.
Tenth Resolution read a Second time.
I beg to move, to leave out "£120,000," and to insert instead thereof "£110,000."
I understand this is a Vote for Diplomatic and Consular Buildings, and that we are proposing to spend £53,515 on the acquisition of a site and the erection of a new Consulate at Tientsin℄a place in China, I believe. It seems a very large sum to spend on such a building. If China is unfortunately in the same position as England, where the cost of erect- ing buildings is especially high, why should we not go on with the present Consulate, which has sufficed for a number of years, instead of embarking on this new outlay. I have seen pictures of the kind of buildings erected in China, and, if they are correct, these buildings consist of a certain number of shutters and nothing much else. I presume wood is fairly cheap in China, and I really cannot see why we should spend such a very large sum on the erection of a Consulate there. Apparently we are spending a great deal of money in China at the present moment. We are rebuilding the Consul-General's house in Canton, the revised estimate for which is £22,000. Here in England, even in these days, you could build a very good house, I should have thought, for £22,000, and a Consul-General, after all, is not an Ambassador who requires to be housed in a dignified place in order to maintain the traditions and importance of the great Empire to which he is attached. A consul-general is a more or less minor official, though, of course, in these days, officials are comparatively great people. Turning over the page, one sees that, in Canton, again, we are re-building consular offices and assistants' quarters, at a cost of £20,000; and then there is £27,700 for the erection of a new consulate and residences at Harbin. I believe that this is the place which the Minister of Health told us was on the sea shore; but someone with a knowledge of geography has told me that it is 3,000 miles away from the nearest sea, so the House must excuse me if I show some ignorance as to its exact latitude and longitude. These sums added together, on this page alone, come to £122,000 for new consulates and residences. I do not know where the hon. Gentlemen opposite are who moved to reduce the ex-Speaker's pension to £1,000, but I think that here is an opportunity for them to exercise their zeal for economy in attempting to get some reduction of what I venture to say is a quite unnecessary expense. It is not necessary to house these officials in these beautiful buildings. We should impress upon them that they must be content to live, as an ordinary person like myself would live, in a modest house, and to look upon their zeal in the interest of the Civil Service as marking their position in life, rather than the great house in which they live.
I beg to second the Amendment. I propose to speak, if I may say so without offence to the right hon. Baronet, in a less facetious way than he did. If there is any desire for economy on the part of the Government, this is an opportunity for them to exercise it. On every occasion when there is any question of raising funds for anything in this country which we on this side may consider desirable, we are reminded of the ever-growing desire of the Government to bow to popular opinion and be economical. Surely this is an opportunity for the Government here and now to put into practice that often-expressed desire. Why in the name of goodness, at a moment when, in the opinion of the Prime Minister, we are practically bankrupt, we should spend £53,000 on new quarters in China℄unless it be to provide occupation for the unemployed in China℄I really do not know. But that is not all. Over the page is an item that the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) missed, and that is for the renewal of plate, whatever that may be, £36,500. Possibly the right hon. Gentleman will tell us exactly what that means. The time has come when, if we are going to economise, we might start economising at someone else's expense rather than our own, and surely if it is necessary to spend £50,000 in pomp and pageantry to retain the opinion of the Chinese nation of this great Empire we have sunk pretty low. Rather we must look to the honour and dignity of this House and the integrity of the Government to give us a reputation in China, and not the spending of £36,500 on plate or £56,000 in erecting new mandarins' houses. I only wish the Government on this occasion would kill two birds with one stone, and save us £56,000, and so behave themselves in the administration of our affairs that the dignity and honour of this country can be bought without paying a cash price for it.
I am somewhat disappointed that this reduction should have been moved with regard to the provision of the necessary accommodation for the representatives of our country. With regard to Tientsin, it is clear that medical opinion has decided against the occupation of the present building. The amount asked for this year is £9,975 for the acquisition of the ground. The sale of the present ground is calculated to bring in £37,500 as against the necessary expenditure for new quarters, and I think on every ground that is a fair and reasonable proposition. With regard to Canton, a very severe flood carried away many of the buildings. It is essential that those damaged buildings should be repaired. Under these circumstances the authorities have had no alternative but to proceed with the reconstruction, and I believe it is being done upon as economical a basis as is commensurate with our dignity. With regard to the question of plate, the Vote includes the whole of the furnishing of all consular buildings throughout the posts that we have consuls at, and the amount asked for is a distinct reduction upon previous occasions.
I find here another large sum connected with China. There is an item of £10,575 for rents, insurance, etc. What on earth are they doing paying £10,000 for rents in China? This is a very big sum, and we ought to have an explanation.
As far as possible the policy of the Board is to purchase all the sites. In many cases the ground and buildings have been rented in the past, and there is great difficulty in securing suitable ground or buildings, and in many cases possession of ground and buildings is cheaper.
The hon. Member has not given me an explanation about Harbin.
The right hon. Baronet is correct. This place is not on the coast. With regard to the expenditure there, the proposed site has been acquired on a long lease, but the rents are particularly high in Harbin, and considerable difficulty has been experienced in getting suitable premises. The final plans for the new buildings are not yet settled, and the accommodation is provided for the officers elsewhere.
There is a question of arithmetic which I should like to put to the hon. Member. The original estimate was for £20,000. In columns 4 and 5 are two sums, £2,450 and £15,850, but they do not total up to £20,000. The sums in the fourth and fifth columns should make up the total of the first column. What has happened to the figure of £20,000, because the items £4,750 and £15,850 amount to £20,600? Are we £600 on the right side or on the wrong side?
I should like to ask a question before voting with the Government on this matter. Perhaps the hon. Member will give us some assurance with regard to the Consulates at Tientsin, Harbin, Canton and Tokio. The Association of Chambers of Commerce was asked to look into the Consular services of China, and I was a member on the Committee on that question. We asked the Government to extend the Consular service very considerably in China and in the East, especially in Manchuria. We should be very pleased to think that steps had been taken to extend our Consulates, so that we manufacturers can send more goods to that part of the world. I should like to know if these Consulates are going to be used for the purposes of trade extension, and if they are being so reorganised that we shall have a fresh opportunity of extending our trade in that part of the world. If so, the money will be well spent, and I shall heartily support the Government in this expenditure.
In reply to the point raised by the hon. Member (Captain Bowyer) I imagine that an original estimate of £20,000 was made and that since then it has been found that it is not sufficient, and that that explains the alteration in the other column. The question raised by the hon. Member (Mr. A. M. Samuel) is not so much a matter for the Department which I represent as for another Department; but so far as I understand it these consulates will be of great advantage to the commerce of this country.
I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment out of consideration for the friendship which I have for my hon. Friend, but I might point out that he strained my friendship a little when he gave an explanation in regard to Harbin and said that the sites were expensive and that they had to pay large rents, when as a matter of fact the Vote is not for the purchase of a site but for the erection of buildings.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Resolution agreed to.
Eleventh Resolution read a Second time.
I beg to move to leave out "£1,441,450," and to insert instead thereof "£941,450."
Hon. Members will observe that this is a Vote for Revenue buildings so called, and totals £2,141,450. This Vote was taken at an unfortunate hour, when very few Members were present, and although most of the expenditure is for Post Office buildings, we could not obtain the presence of the Assistant Postmaster-General or any representative of the Treasury. I am glad to see that they are here to-night. At a time when we are told economy is essential, the Post Office has burst into an orgy of new building. It is asking for new Post Offices, sorting offices, parcel offices, headquarters for staff of Accountant-General, stores, and so on, all over the country. No fewer than 60 new buildings or enlargements of old buildings are provided for. During the War the work of the Post Office was very much heavier than it is now. We had a great Army abroad and a great fleet mobilised, and there was more Post Office work and more pension work and separation allowances work, and yet the Post Office managed to carry on in the buildings which it possessed. Now, with reduced work, we have this orgy of new building.
For instance, we have new offices for the Accountant-General in the Post Office for which the sum asked this year is £502,000. The original estimate last year was £465,000. The late President of the Board of Works, now the Minister of Health, in discussing this building previously said that it did not interfere with ordinary houses because it was made with steel and concrete. My objection to a great part of this Vote is that these building operations are interfering with housing. I think that the Government may well use this steel and concrete and the specialised builders who put up these offices in putting up blocks of tenement buildings for housing people. At Mount Pleasant there is a new letter sorting office for which we are asked to spend £418,000. The original estimate was only £120,000. We are entitled to know why this amount is exceeded. I cannot understand that this difference is due to a miscalculation. The plans must have been altered. Greater ambition must have entered into the minds of the officials of the Post Office to cause such a vast in- crease on the original estimate. The original estimate for the new parcel office in Liverpool was £83,000. It is now £310,000. The commitments under this Vote are very much heavier than the amount which we have had. We are only entitled, for instance, in Liverpool, to spend £60,000 of the amount to which I have referred.
So it is all through. Therefore we are really committing ourselves to an expenditure of many millions. We are asked now for only about a quarter of the money, and next year we shall be told that the building is half finished and that it would be an unwise thing not to go on with it. It was just the same in regard to the ships that were in process of construction at the time of the Armistice. At Oldham the original estimate was for an expenditure of £19,600; now the Estimate is £23,000. So the tale goes on. At Salisbury, for enlargement of the sorting office the present estimate of £16,000 has gone up 500 per cent. Whether from Scotland or Wales, probably every hon. Member will find that some new building is to be put up in his constituency. Yet we are told that there is a shortage of builders and of building materials, and, above all, we know that there is a shortage of money. I come now to a much more serious item, and that is the provision of revenue buildings. Last year we had a very animated Debate on an item which related to Manchester. I am glad that the hon. and gallant Member for Durham (Major Hills) is in his place, because last year he took a leading, and his usual brilliant, part in the Debate. On that occasion the Government asked for a sum of £113,800 for new offices for revenue clerks. As a result of the Debate, in which the then Leader of the House and the then Chancellor of the Exchequer took part, Members were mollified by a promise that only the site would be purchased and that authorisation would be obtained before any further expenditure was incurred. The authorisation was sought by bringing on this Vote in the dinner-hour when only eight or nine Members were present and when it was impossible to get representatives either of the Post Office or the Treasury to come in and give an explanation. It was rushed through, and when I challenged a division the hon. and gallant Member for Durham voted with the Government, as did the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton). Whereas the sum required last year was £113,800, it has now leapt to £163,535. That is the only result of the fire-works which took up much of an afternoon last year. The need for economy is greater this year than last. I am glad to see that in the City of Hull they do not intend to erect new premises for the revenue clerks, although their trade is not much less than that of Manchester. They are going to adapt old premises, and I only wish Manchester would do the same. One could go on giving instances, but I do not wish to occupy the time of the House further. The whole Vote is simply preposterous. Talk about squandermania! The word is often badly used, but here is a priceless example of the thing itself. We have here proposals to spend money on buildings℄proposals which before the War would have been riddled with criticism℄and in those days we were a wealthy nation. Now we are poverty stricken and looking around for the means of balancing our Budget; the people are overtaxed, industry is hampered by heavy taxation, and unemployment is general, yet the Government dares to come to the House of Commons and ask for £2,100,000 for Post Office and Revenue buildings. I only hope that hon. Members will support me in this Amendment.
I beg to second the Amendment.
The position disclosed in this Vote is really very serious. If hon. Members will look at page 26, they will see that provision is made of accommodation for 90 new district offices℄the details of which are not settled℄involving a Vote of £190,000, but no estimates of any kind are given. So that, what we are going to do℄and that is the reason why I have risen to second this reduction℄is to vote a sum of £190,000 for buildings for which no total estimate has been provided. The result is that next year we may be face to face with an estimate for perhaps £500,000 or £600,000 and we shall be told that £190,000 has already been spent this year and that we cannot afford to sacrifice that money and there-fore must spend further large sums to avoid the present expenditure being wasted. I really do think that in the present state of finance, with the knowledge that the cost of building is decreasing every month, I may say, to come down and ask this House to vote a sum of £190,000 for buildings for which no Estimate has been put before the House, is a proposal that we cannot agree to. I am very sorry to oppose in this matter my two right hon. Friends, especially the Postmaster-General, with whom I have been associated for many years; but really I feel that it is my duty to point out that we should not allow sums of this sort to be passed without some criticism. If hon. Members will turn to another page, they will find proposals for new offices for the Accountant-General and the Controller of Stores. The original Estimate was £465,000, and the revised Estimate is £502,000; and if they will look again, they will see that this is only the first portion. We are actually going to spend, on these new offices, a first portion amounting to £500,000. What have the Accountant-General and the Controller of Stores been doing for the past two years? How have they been carrying on their work? Why can they not carry it on a little bit longer? Coming down to No. 5, on the same page, Mount Pleasant, you see the original total Estimate was £120,000, and the revised total Estimate is £418,000. The next item, No. 6, is Mount Pleasant again℄new Stamp Office. The original total Estimate was £59,850, and the revised total Estimate is £112,640. Who makes up these Estimates so that, when the work progresses, they are found to be so erroneous that an Estimate of £120,000 is turned into an actual expenditure of £418,000? You have the Threadneedle Street Branch Post Office. I know something about the Post Office in Threadneedle Street. I have been for a good many years of my life in that region. It is a very good office and, as far as I know, there is no reason why it should be altered. The original total Estimate was £23,500. The revised Estimate is £90,000. That is for rebuilding the post office in Threadneedle Street, which, to my certain knowledge, has for many years fulfilled all the requirements for the posting of letters in that part of the City of London. I see there is a new post office at Ashford, which was originally to cost £3,280. It is now estimated at £10,570. Where do they get their Estimates from? If other people were to estimate their expenditure in the manner I have just shown, they would be in bankruptcy. That is where we shall be if the Government go on in this extraordinary way. There is a new post office at Ilkeston. The original total estimate was £2,715, and the revised total estimate is £10,160. Lancaster post office is to be rebuilt; here the original total estimate was for £10,925, and the revised estimate is £35,740. At Liverpool actually the original total estimate was £83,060. That has now gone up to £310,930. I have only got to go all through this column of figures, and in every case the original estimate has been exceeded by a very large sum. It is necessary that we should take some serious step to show that we must stop this reckless and extravagant expenditure
My hon. Friend opposite appealed to me in regard to the case of Manchester. Last year the Government satisfied me on the question, but the only effect of that Debate, apparently, has been that the Estimate has been increased. I have really risen on a very different point. On page 28 of the Vote, Item No. 2, the Accountant-General's office, there is an estimate of £502,500, and in the third column there is an additional sum of £167,500. At first I thought the latter was included in the former, but I see that is not so. Consequently the whole amount that we are voting for the new office for the Accountant-General is £670,000. All the figures in the third column have to be added on to the second column to get the total estimate. On page 29, for Swansea there is a first estimate of £2,350, which comes to a total sum of over £39,000. I think we want some explanation, and I suggest that it is misleading to have the total Estimates in the second column of these figures, which are not really the total Estimates, for the total Estimates are really the sum of the second and third columns together. On page 26, at the bottom, there is £190,000 for the provision of offices in regard to which details are not yet settled. I quite agree that we cannot possibly vote for that sum. If anybody were to issue a prospectus and ask for money for a project not yet settled, he would have something said to him. It happened in the South Sea Bubble. A gentleman of more astuteness than honesty got a lot of money by issuing a prospectus asking for subscriptions for a project not yet settled, and when he got the money he decamped. Is this the time to go in for these enormous capital expenditures? The supporters of the Government have no option except to vote for or against the Government, and if we vote for them we simply see this expenditure go on, and though I am reluctant to do so, I feel that unless we get an explanation, that will satisfy me—
It being Eleven of the Clock, the Debate stood adjourned.
Debate to be resumed To-morrow.
Twelfth Resolution to be considered To-morrow.
Captive Birds Shooting (Prohibition) Bill
As amended ( in the Standing Committee ), considered.
Bill read the Third time, and passed.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Housing [Grants]
Committee to consider of authorising the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of grants under the Housing (Additional Powers) Act, 1919, in respect of houses completed within two years and six months of the passing of that Act or such period not exceeding four months as the Minister of Health may allow in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to amend the law relating to the Housing of the People ( King's Recommendation signified ) To-morrow.℄[ Sir Alfred Mond ].
Adjournment
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."℄[ Colonel Leslie Wilson. ]
Adjourned accordingly at Three minutes after Eleven o'Clock.