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Commons Chamber

Volume 141: debated on Wednesday 11 May 1921

House of Commons

Wednesday, May 11, 1921

The House, met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

North British Railway Order Confirmation Bill,

Lords Amendment considered, and agreed to.

Dundee Gas Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords ],

Considered; to b0e read the Third time To-morrow.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Barnsley Extension) Bill,

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill,

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill, Read a Second time, and committed.

PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL,

"to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Minister of Transport under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, relating to Bridport, Brighton, Fowey, and Llanelly," presented by Mr. NEAL; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 103.]

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL,

"to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Minister of Health relating to Derby, Doncaster, Hemel Hempstead, Newton-in-Mackerfield, Runcorn, Stock-port, and Swanage," presented by Sir ALFRED MOND; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed [Bill 104.]

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Newark Extension) Bill,

"to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to Newark," presented by Sir ALFRED MOND; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 105.]

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Shaftesbury Extension) Bill,

"to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to Shaftesbury," presented by Sir ALFRED MOND; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 106.]

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Taunton Extension) Bill,

"to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to Taunton," presented by Sir ALFRED MOND; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 107.]

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (Rotherham and Sheffield Extension) Bill,

"to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Minister of Health relating to Rotherham and Sheffield," presented by Sir ALFRED MOND; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 108.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Mexico

asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will explain why the recognition of the Mexican Government is premature at the present time, and whether he can suggest any method or policy on the part of President Obregon that would facilitate recognition by His Majesty's Government?

1 and 2.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) what further proposal, to follow their recent encouraging statement, on the part of the present Mexican Government would induce His Majesty's Government to consider the advisability of according the Mexican Government early recognition;

(2) whether he has been informed by the present Mexican authorities that they will be ready to meet all properly established outstanding British claims on condition that His Majesty's Government recognises the existing Mexican Government?

His Majesty's Government have always been anxious to recognise the Mexican Government as soon as they are convinced of its stability, and of its intention to remedy the losses incurred by British firms and interests. The question, for instance, of restoring to the owners, on fair terms, the various properties of British subjects still held by different Mexican authorities is one which, in the opinion of His Majesty's Government, should be dealt with, and His Majesty's Government would welcome any steps that the Mexican Government might take to deal with this and similar problems. Until some practical suggestion can be made by the Mexican Government for settling these questions. His Majesty's Government consider that recognition would be premature. In September last, the Mexican Government stated that, as soon as they had been fully recognised by other countries, they would be prepared to agree to the appointment of a mixed Commission to negotiate concerning British claims.

Peace Treaties

Turkey

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the recent statement of Bekir Sami Bey in the Turkish Nationalist Assembly at Angora to the effect that a new conference of the principal Allied and Associated Powers to discuss the revision of the Treaty of Sevres will take place shortly in Italy is correct; and whether this conference is being arranged to take place in Rome, and when?

Washington Convention

asked the Prime Minister if he will now suggest a date for the discussion of the Washington Convention, in fulfilment of the agreement made by the late Lord Privy Seal on the 22nd February?

I can add nothing to the answer which I gave on Wednesday last in reply to a question by my right hon. Friend the Member for the Gorbals Division of Glasgow (Mr. G. Barnes).

Can the right hon. Gentleman hold out any hope of any discussion taking place?

I have looked into the matter. I was under the impression that my predecessor had promised a discussion; but I find that I was mistaken, and that he did not promise a discussion. I think, however, it probably would be desirous to have one, but I am not yet in a position to name a day.

Invasion of Territory

asked the Prime Minister whether the words in general such other measures in the Treaty of Versailles, Clause 18, Annex II., would justify the invasion of territory?

Yes, Sir, the words referred to would justify an invasion of territory if it is considered by the Governments concerned that such a measure is necessary in the circumstances.

German Reparation

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps have been taken, or are in contemplation, for the application of the principles of the Reparation Act to the Crown Colonies?

No steps have yet been taken for the introduction of legislation on the lines of the German Reparation (Recovery) Act in the Colonies not possessing responsible Government, nor are any immediate steps in contemplation.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is very important to traders that they should know exactly what is to be done in this matter? Is the Government taking steps or not?

On re-reading my answer I cannot see that it is other than perfectly clear.

Are we to understand that the Government has no intention of suggesting to the Crown Colonies that they should legislate in this sense?

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what further sums have been received in the five weeks since 2nd April under the German Reparation (Recovery) Act?

The amount received under the German Reparation (Recovery) Act, 1921, during the five weeks since the 2nd April is £9,000.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman in a position to make the calculation for which I asked, how long it would take to recover the indemnity at this rate?

Questions

China

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information regarding the Proclamation of Dr. Sun Yat Sen, as President of China, at Canton; over what area his rule is effective; whether any foreign Powers have given him de facto recognition; whether the three most powerful military tuchuns had a recent meeting at Tientsin and have proceeded to Pekin to overawe the civil Government; whether civil war is now threatening throughout China; and whether any special instructions have been sent to British consuls and steps taken to provide for the greater security of the lives and property of British subjects in China?

His Majesty's Government have learnt that Mr. Sun Yat Sen was elected "President of the Chinese Republic" by the active remnants of an old Parliament which does not recognise the existing Government at Peking. Whatever rule he exercises is believed to be effective in the province of Kwangtung only. There is no informa- tion that he has been recognised by any foreign power. The three chief military governors supporting the Peking Government and the Premier have met at Tientsin to consider the present financial difficulties of that Government. There is no information that the dissensions in China are threatening to become more violent than they have been for some time past. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

Russia (British Subjects)

asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there are any British subjects still detained in Russia against their will; and whether we are doing our best to help the Americans to secure the liberation of their subjects who are still in prison in that country?

Pending the arrival in Russia of the trade agents under the agreement, His Majesty's Government have caused inquiries to be made through the Soviet Government in regard to each case brought to their notice of British subjects still in that county. Until the result of such inquiry is known, it is not possible to say whether the continued presence in Russia of such persons was or was not involuntary. His Majesty's Government regret that they are not in a position officially to take any action on behalf of United States citizens.

Passports and Visas

asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is able to hold out any hope that visas on passports between Great Britain and France may be abolished in time to be of service to the large number of nationals of both countries who intend to cross the Channel during the forthcoming holidays?

Seeing that an offer has been made by the French Government, cannot the Government hold out some hope that it will be accepted shortly?

The matter is having earnest consideration, but it cannot possibly be settled before the Whitsuntide holidays.

Can the right hon. Gentleman not hold out some hope that there will be a settlement before the summer holidays—before the House rises?

Royal Navy

Ships (Disposal)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what ships of over 3,000 tons displacement, built or laid down since August, 1914, have been or are to be disposed of; and, if so, in what way?

As the reply is in tabular form, I propose, with the Noble Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The following is the answer:

Of the vessels of over 3,000 tons displacement, built or laid down since August, 1914, the following have been, or are to be, disposed of, in the manner stated:—

( a ) VESSELS LAID DOWN BEFORE AUGUST, 1914, AND COMPLETED SINCE.) VESSELS LAID DOWN BEFORE AUGUST, 1914, AND COMPLETED SINCE.

Ship

Class.

How disposed of or to be disposed of.

Canada

Battleship

Sold to Chilean Government.

Aurora

Light Cruiser

Transferred to Canadian Government.

Birkenhead

Light Cruiser

For disposal by sale or otherwise as may

Chester

Light Cruiser

Penelope

Light Cruiser

To be sold.

Gorgon

Monitor

To be sold.

Reliance

Repair ship

Sold.

( b ) VESSELS BUILT SINCE AUGUST, 1914.) VESSELS BUILT SINCE AUGUST, 1914.

Marshal Soult

Monitor

To be sold.

Terror

Monitor

To be paid off shortly and sold.

Earl of Peterborough

Monitor

To be sold.

Sir Thomas Picton

Monitor

To be sold.

Abercrombie

Monitor

Sold.

General Craufurd

General Wolfe

Havelock

Prince Eugene

Roberts

( c ) VESSELS LAID DOWN AND NOT COMPLETED SINCE AUGUST, 1914.) VESSELS LAID DOWN AND NOT COMPLETED SINCE AUGUST, 1914.

Rodney

Battle Cruiser

Contracts cancelled

Howe

Battle Cruiser

Contracts cancelled.

Anson

Battle Cruiser

Contracts cancelled.

Daedalus

Light Cruiser

Contracts cancelled.

Dryad

Light Cruiser

Contracts cancelled.

Euphrates

Battle Cruiser

Contracts cancelled.

Motor-Boat Base, Osea Island

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the coastal-motor-boat base, situated at Osea Island, has been shifted to the Portsmouth area; when the Osea Island base was the total cost, what

is the estimated cost of the transfer; and whether the decision to establish this base at Portsmouth has been arrived at for strategical reasons?

The coastal-motor-boat base is in process of removal from Osea Island to the Portsmouth area, where it will be maintained on a reduced scale The base at Osea was commenced in December, 1917, and completed in June, 1918, at a cost of approximately £195,000. It is estimated that the transfer will cost approximately £17,000. The transfer was decided upon on grounds of econmy.

Can the hon. Gentleman say if their Lordships are satisfied that Portsmouth is the best strategical base under the new conditions?

Yes, Sir. I think they also found there is very considerable economy in the transfer.

Have they considered that it is very false economy to place a base of this sort at Portsmouth for purely strategical reasons, when it may have to be moved again at great expense afterwards.

Paymaster-Lieutenants

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the number of paymaster-lieutenants promoted from writer, commissioned, and warrant writers borne on 1st October, 1918, and 31st March, 1921, respectively; and will he give the reasons that led to the drastic reduction in the number of junior accountant officers, seeing that there is a shortage of these officers and a large waiting list of men passed and highly recommended for promotion?

The number of paymaster-lieutenants promoted from warrant rank borne on the 1st October, 1918, was 11, including 4 officers who had passed the age for compulsory retirement, but were retained as supernumerary on the active list owing to the War. The number borne on the 31st March, 1921, was 9, and this number was increased to 10 on the 1st April, thus completing the full number of ten laid down in Monthly Order 3018a/18. With regard to the second part of the question, I may state that no drastic reduction has been made in the number of junior accountant officers, nor is there any shortage of accountant officers.

Warrant Writers

asked the First Lord W Admiralty whether any promotions to the rank of warrant writer have been made since December, 1919; if none have been made, will he consider the question with a view to making early promotions; will he state why a first-class higher educational certificate has not been made a test for early promotion to commissioned rank in the writer branch of the Navy, as it has in the seaman and engineering branches; and will he take steps to extend the same facilities to the writer branch of the service?

No promotions have been made to the rank of warrant writer since December, 1919. As I stated in my reply to the hon. Member for Plymouth on the 5th May, further promotions to warrant writer are dependent upon the post-War establishment of the accountant branch as a whole, and this is now under consideration. I assume that in the last part of the question the hon. Member refers to the method of earlier promotion to the rank or relative rank of lieutenant after examination which is laid down in the executive and engineering branches. It has been decided not to introduce such a system into the writer branch, in which the conditions are quite dissimilar, and in which professional experience is of more value than high educational attainments. At the same time the vacancies which would have been reserved under that system, to be filled by selection periodically from those who had qualified, are filled by the promotion of officers for long and zealous service as the vacancies occur.

Schoolmasters, Pay

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether, inasmuch as the question of the further revision of the pay of the school master branch of the Royal Navy has been under consideration for a long time, he is now in a position to state what the newly revised rates will be, and from what date they will have effect?

This question is still under consideration, and I regret that I am not in a position to make any statement at present.

Official War Documents

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Board adheres to the decision in their letter to Mr. Filson Young on 30th October, 1920, which has been published in a recent book, and which lays down that they can make no exception to the rule which has been laid down that, only Sir Julian Corbett can be allowed to see official documents relating to the War?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the result of this decision is that the copyright for the whole of the official despatches and all courts of inquiry rests in a single person and a single firm of publishers, and does he not think that is highly undesirable?

I think the issue is not one of copyright. It has been laid down in an agreement between all Government Departments that documents of this character are not to be made public except for very special reasons.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, according to this book, a letter from the Admiralty states that these documents are not under the control of the Board of Admiralty?

That may be. These documents were entrusted to the official historian of the War.

Married Officers (Pay)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether a lieutenant or lieutenant-commander who may happen to be married is getting less pay than married officers of equivalent rank in the Army or Air Force?

Warrant Officers (Pay)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether it is the case that some warrant officers, deck and engine-room, in submarines are actually getting less pay than their subordinates, chief petty officers, who happen to be married?

The answer is in the affirmative. It is not practicable to avoid altogether the possibility in any circumstances of a warrant officer receiving less pay than a chief petty officer who is probably some years older. The advantage, however, is purely temporary, and is largely offset by the fact that warrant rank carries opportunities for further advancement to commissioned officer from warrant rank, lieutenant, etc., with still higher rates of pay as well as prospects in respect of retired pay and widow's pension, out of all proportion greater than those open to ratings. The widows of ratings are, in the ordinary course, not eligible for pensions at all.

Is it not a fact that a chief petty officer has a marriage allowance, and a warrant officer has not?

That is quite so, but it is only temporary. After an interval, the position of the warrant officer would be better.

Officers' Marriage Allowances

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in considering the question of marriage allowance for naval officers, they have compared the present case of a naval officer whose pre-War pay was 10s. a day, and who now gets £292 per annum, with that of a Civil Service clerk, who, with a pre-War pay of 10s. a day, is now getting upwards of £400 a year, though, possibly, not married?

Can the hon. Gentleman say the approximate date when this, egg will be hatched?

No, Sir. I should like it to be as soon as possible. There are natural difficulties, on the ground of expenditure.

How does the hon. Gentleman justify the awarding of less to naval officers than to others?

I do not know that I can at this stage discuss all the different items which enter into the pay of the Navy.

Dockyard EmployéS, Malta and Gibraltar

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty why the Admiralty refuse to deal with and reply to the claim made for increased wages to the employés at His Majesty's dockyards at Malta and Gibraltar; and why the Admiralty refuses to negotiate those claims with the accredited officers at the headquarters of the men's union in London?

All questions concerning the wages of employés at His Majesty's dockyards abroad are dealt with as between the Senior Naval Officer, or other agent for the Admiralty on the spot, and the employés or their local representatives. The Senior Naval Officer acts in accordance with the general or specific instructions of the Admiralty. This procedure is considered to be the best suited to the peculiar conditions at the dockyards abroad, and it is not desirable to act in conflict with it by adopting the suggestion contained in the last part of the hon. Member's question. There have been claims regarding the wages of employés at Malta and Gibraltar, which have been disallowed; but there has been no refusal to deal with any claim received through the usual channel.

Housing

Architects' Fees

asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the fact that the fees of the architect for the housing scheme of Brandon and Byshottles Urban District Council amount to £13,290, and that they will be still further increased; whether the Ministry has laid down any scale of architects' fees in connection with housing schemes; if so, whether these fees are in accordance with the scale; and whether there is any means of preventing such excessive fees being piled up in connection with housing schemes and increasing the burden both upon the rates and the Exchequer?

A copy of the claim made by the architect for the housing scheme referred to has been sent to me. The claim is considerably in excess of the amount which would be payable under the scale of fees which has been agreed with the Royal Institute of British Architects and the Society of Architects, and the matter is being investigated.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this council is building 500 houses in five years to meet the needs of the people, and that architects' fees can be claimed up to £30,000?

I have just told the hon. Member that this claim is very much in excess of the scale of fees that has been arranged. The matter is being investigated, and after investigation we shall see whether it will be allowed or not.

Why is it necessary for these big fees to be paid in respect of housing schemes, seeing that the plans are all of a standard pattern?

This is evidently an arrangement between the local council and the architect.

Building Materials

asked the Minister of Health if he will consider the immediate decontrol of building material as a means of relieving unemployment and accelerating housing schemes by encouraging private building?

There is no control of building materials by the Government at the present time.

Questions

Unemployment Benefit (Aliens)

asked the Minister of Labour whether an alien arriving in this country and obtaining employment receives, if he afterwards becomes unemployed, exactly the same benefits under the Unemployment Insurance Act as a British-born resident workman?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Wandsworth (Sir J. Norton-Griffiths) on 20th April. Aliens are liable to pay contributions and are entitled to benefit in the same way as British subjects. They are required under the Act of 1920 to have four weeks' employment and contributions in an insured trade to their credit in order to be entitled to benefit, or, alternatively, under Section 3 of the Act of 1921, like other civilian claimants, to prove that they have worked in insurable employment during 20 weeks since the year 1919.

Joiners' Strike

asked the Minister of Labour if he can make any statements as to the joiners' strike and the prospects of a settlement?

I regret that I am unable to add anything at the moment to my previous reply to my hon. and gallant Friend on the 4th May. I am, as he knows, still in touch with both parties.

Ex-Service Men (Building Teade)

asked the Minister of Labour how many ex-service men have now applied under the Government scheme for employment in the building trades; and how many are now employed?

The number of applicants for admission under the scheme is now 12,266. The work of executing contracts between the men and the building employers has been greatly delayed, mainly as a result of the general stagnation brought about by the industrial situation. The employers are forming the district committees through which the scheme will be operated, and I have their assurance that no endeavour will be wanted on their part to carry it to a successful issue.

Trade Boards

asked the Minister of Labour whether he has received letters from branches of the Amalgamated Union of Shop Assistants, Warehousemen, and Clerks requesting him to form, and protesting against the delay in forming, a trade board for shop workers in the distribution trades; whether any step has been taken in the matter; and, if not, will he at once proceed to set up such boards?

I have received many letters from branches of the union to which my hon. Friend refers urging the early establishment of trade boards for the various distributive trades. Trade boards have already been established for the milk distributive and grocery and provisions distributive trades, and I propose to proceed with the application of the Acts to other distributive trades in which such action is clearly shown to be expedient, always bearing in mind the need for caution in the present circumstances of the trade of the country.

If there be a trade board set up, will they be genuine employers on the board and not people nominated by the Government?

My hon. and gallant Friend does not understand the composition of these trade boards. Half the members are representative of the employers and half are representative of the workpeople concerned, and the Ministry of Labour adds one, two, or three independent members.

Does that mean that the Government have no hand in nominating any of the employers' representatives?

What I have said covers the case of the organised trades; but in unorganised trades, if we cannot get a representative employer, it may very well be that we shall have to select an employer who seems to us to represent the trade concerned. Broadly speaking, however, on both sides of the board the persons concerned are representatives of the interested employers and workpeople.

asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to a statement made at the council of the Drapers' Chamber of Trade in the Royal Agricultural Hall, on 12th April, to the effect that the dressmakers in Portsmouth had refused to put the lO¾d. scale into force, and that the last Ministry of Labour inspector who had visited Portsmouth had congratulated the speaker in defying the Government; whether an inspector of his Department did express such a sentiment; whether firms in the dressmaking trade in Portsmouth have ignored or are ignoring the trade board award; and, if so, what action he proposes to take?

My attention has been drawn to the statement mentioned in the question, and I am informed that the lady inspector concerned expressed no such sentiments as those ascribed to her. I am aware that some of the dressmaking firms in Portsmouth are not paying certain of the minimum rates of wages fixed by the Trade Board, and I am taking steps to ensure that these employers shall comply with the law.

Coal Industry Dispute

Reserves and Defence Force (Civil Situations)

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is taking any steps to bring before employers of labour the importance of keeping places open for those of their employés who have been called up owing to the industrial crisis?

When the Defence Force was formed and the Reserves mobilised, a public appeal was made to employers to keep their posts open for them. I certainly hope they have found it possible so to do. And we shall make every effort on the demobilisation of the Reserves and the Home Defence Force to impress upon employers the duty of reinstating the men wherever possible.

What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by keeping posts open? Does he mean that fresh men are to be engaged in the place of those men who were called up, and then to be sacked when the others are demobilised, so that the latter can be reinstated; and is he aware that if this operation takes place it is injurious to industry, and that a great many employers think the men were unnecessarily called up, with unnecessary disturbance to trade?

I do not know that my hon. Friend need unnecessarily create difficulties. The employers were appealed to to keep posts open, and I hope the bulk of them will have done so, and if any difficulties of that sort have arisen I daresay they can find a way out without any injustice to the man engaged, the employer, or the man called up.

Prices and Wages

asked the Prime Minister whether he can state the date and the occasion when the Miners' Federation asked either the Government or the coal-owners to put up the price of coal at home if it could not be got abroad in order to meet a wage demand?

I am not aware that such a demand was made by the Miners' Federation, but if the hon. Member is referring to a passage in the speech which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made on Saturday last at Maid-stone, he will see that he made no reference to the Miners' Federation. He was referring to the various contentions or suggestions which were being made.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the statement, as it appears in the Press, that demands have been made for an increase in the price of coal to home consumers in order to meet the demands of the Miners' Federation, and has he seen the statement of the Acting President of the Miners' Federation, Mr. Herbert Smith, who discloses that it is the most deliberate and wicked lie ever uttered from a public platform? I think the right hon. Gentleman's answer agrees with that.

No, Sir. Before answering this question, I consulted my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and I have taken the precaution of rereading his words, and if the hon. Member will do the same, he will see that the answer I have given is strictly accurate. I was not aware, until the hon. Member informed me, of the statement made by Mr. Herbert Smith, but it was obviously made upon the assumption which underlies the hon. Member's question, which is unfounded, that the Prime Minister in his speech alleged that this demand was being made by the Miners' Federation.

Can the right hon. Gentleman inform the House who are the reliable people to demand an increase in wages for the miners, that would be listened to by the Government or by the employers, other than the Miners' Federation of Great Britain?

If the hon. Member will re-read the speech he will see that there is no necessity for putting that question, which does not arise out of my right hon. Friend's speech.

Is not the Prime Minister's reference to the miners' dispute such as to warrant the inference that is being placed upon it in this House and in the country?

Electric Power Station, Dewsbury

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the military forces are still stationed upon the premises of the Yorkshire Electric Power Company at Dewsbury; if he is aware that the introduction of the military into that area has created considerable resentment in the minds of the inhabitants; having regard to the fact that the military forces are performing no useful function which could not otherwise have been carried out by ordinary workmen, if he will take steps to have the military removed; if he will state whether the costs incurred by the allocation of the force upon the premises will be met by the undertaking, the local rates, or the general taxpayer, and, if in part, in what proportion?

A military guard is still stationed at the electrical power station at Dewsbury. I am not prepared to admit that their presence is unnecessary, or that it is resented by the peacefully minded inhabitants. As regards the remainder of the hon. Member's question, I am afraid I can add nothing to the reply which was given to him on 28th April last, except that any cost involved is being met out of Army Funds.

Brickyard Supplies

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Peterborough brickyards have recently been supplied with coal through the intervention of Mr. Frank Hodges and the National Union of Railwaymen; and whether arrangements could be made to send similar supplies to other brickyards in the country which are now prevented from making bricks for housing purposes through the stoppage of coal supplies?

I am not aware that the Peterborough brickyards have recently been supplied with coal in the manner referred to by the hon. Member. The Government are fully alive to the importance of the production of bricks for housing purposes, but they are not prepared, in view of the seriousness of the present situation, to ensure supplies of coal to any industries other than those vital to the life of the community.

Questions

Cost of Living

asked the Minister of Labour whether the heavy fall that has taken place since the recent decontrol of various of the principal food commodities, together with the substitution since the War of imported beef and mutton for the home-grown articles, and the larger consumption of margarine, fish, and vegetables, has brought the general index figure of food commodities to nearer 80 per cent. than 134 per cent. above the immediate pre-War level; and is he satisfied that the monthly figures as published is in consequence misleading?

The reduction in the prices of the principal articles of food has been reflected in the Ministry of Labour index number of food prices, which fell from 191 per cent. above the pre-War level at 1st November, 1920, to 138 per cent. at 1st April last. As my hon. and gallant Friend is aware, this index number is designed to show the average increase in the cost of maintaining unchallenged the pre War standard of living of working-class families, and for this purpose it would not be appropriate to take account of possible changes in dietary of the kind suggested. The purpose for which the index number is designed is carefully explained on each occasion on which the figures are published, and, if due account is taken of this explanation, I see no reason why the figures should be regarded as misleading.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if margarine, imported meat, fish, and vegetables fell to a nominal price, that would not affect the cost of living figure?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the figure given in the "Labour Gazette" for the price of butter is 2s. 9½d., and that the real price is now 1s. 10d.? [HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"] At all the multiple stores in London at the present time. I have got the figures here.

The hon. and gallant Member's supplementary question was only an argument arising out of the main answer.

Linen Trade, Belfast (Wages)

asked the Minister of Labour if he is now in a position to state the result of his inquiries regarding the rates of pay paid to workers in the linen trade at Belfast?

As I informed my hon. Friend on 4th May, I have made obligatory as from 11th April a piecework basis time rate of 9d. per hour fixed by the Linen and Cotton Handkerchief and Household Goods Trade Board, and investigation into the adequacy of the piece-rates paid in the trade is proceeding. It is too early to state the result of these inquiries.

Domestic Service

asked the Minister of Labour how many women have been placed in domestic service by the Employment Exchanges since the 1st January, 1921, distinguishing, if possible, between those who have obtained employment for the first time from those who have obtained employment by this means on more than one occasion?

The number of domestic service vacancies for women filled in the three months from 8th January to 8th April, 1921, was 40,804, of which 9,107 were for resident service in private houses or in hotels or institutions, 9,722 for non-resident service, 18,268 were vacancies for charwomen, and 3,707 were vacancies for waitresses or others. The number of persons placed for the first time cannot be separately given, but, on the average, 32 separate individuals were placed in every 41 vacancies, or, excluding charwomen, 20 separate individuals in every 22 vacancies—in other words, only a relatively small proportion were placed in more than one vacancy by the Exchanges during the three months.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much it cost to place these individuals out per head?

I could give my hon. Friend the appropriation charges for the whole of the Ministry of Labour, and I daresay I could take out of them the cost of the Employment Exchanges, but I think it would be rather difficult for me to say how much each of these 40,804 vacancies which have been filled cost.

Will the right hon. Gentleman state how much it would cost not to fill these vacancies?

How many domestic servants, that is, women who had been domestic servants, were on the live register, so as to get the proportion of the number available?

Child Welfare

asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the widespread distress in the country, he will cancel Circular M. & C. W. 185, issued 31st March, 1921, and re-issue Circular M. & C. W. 4, of 9th August, 1918, so that maternity and child welfare committees may provide children under five years of age with food?

Circular 185 does not alter the conditions previously pre scribed on which food may be supplied to children under five, except in regard to the supply of milk, which under the circular is to be supplied free or at less than cost price only in necessitous cases In the circumstances no purpose would be served by the cancellation of the circular.

Is it not the fact that at maternity and child welfare centres at this moment the children, and in many cases mothers, are being fed?

Pasteur Treatment

asked the Minister of Health how many persons bitten by alleged or suspected mad dogs since the first case of rabies was notified in this country after the War have refused the Pasteur treatment; and if any of those persons have contracted hydrophobia?

So far as I am aware there have been only two cases in this country since the Armistice in which persons bitten by dogs which were reasonably suspected to be rabid have refused the Pasteur treatment. Neither of these persons developed hydrophobia.

Is anyone sent to the Pasteur Institute unless they are bitten by a dog supposed to be mad?

London County Council Hall

asked the Minister of Health what was the original total estimate for the erection of the new hall for the London County Council; what is the revised estimate; and is there any prospect of a reduction in this estimate owing to the fall, in the price of building materials during the past few months?

This is not a matter within my jurisdiction, and I have no information on the subject.

Local Government Officials (Superannuation)

asked the Minister of Health whether he will be able at an early date to give effect to the promise made by his predecessor and introduce a Bill making provision for a national scheme of superannuation for local Government officials?

As I have previously stated in reply to questions, the Government regret that they cannot proceed with this matter at the present time, in view of the charges which the scheme would impose upon the rates.

Superintendent Registrar, Brentford

asked the Minister of Health if he is now in a position to state the result of his inquiries regarding the Brentford Board of Guardians having appointed their clerk to the additional position of Superintendent Registrar?

I regret that I am not yet in a position to make any statement, but I hope in a short time to be in a position to do so.

Ireland

Military Operations

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, following on the assassination of Sergeant Rew, Royal Scots Regiment, at Ennis, the Clare Hotel, the Old Ground Hotel, the house of Mr. Patrick Considine, and the grocery shop of Mr. T. V. Honan, chairman of the Ennis Urban Council, were destroyed by order of the military governor; on what ground these premises were selected for destruction; whether the owners were given an opportunity of rebutting any alleged evidence against them; whether he is aware that Mr. Honan was ill in bed in hospital at the time of the murder of Sergeant Rew and had been there in bed for three weeks previously; that he is a widower with six small children, the eldest being 13 years old, and that these children are now homeless; and whether he will state what evidence there was against Mr. Honan or his children to justify this destruction of his means of livelihood?

I dealt with these cases in reply to a question by the hon. Member for the West Leyton Division on the 5th instant; but in view of the further facts now brought forward in this question, I have asked the Commander-in-Chief to furnish me with a report in fuller detail. Perhaps the hon. and gallant Member will kindly repeat the question at a later date.

If it be found correct that Councillor Honan was in bed ill when this occurred, and that it was obviously a mistake, will the right hon. Gentleman give orders for some compensation to be given to him?

Arrest, Cork

asked the Chief Secretary whether John Sullivan, 57, Grattan Street, Cork, was arrested on 22nd February, 1921, and detained in Cork military detention barracks until 3rd March, when he was removed to the military hospital; whether he was released on 1st April, mentally unsound; and whether any inquiry will be instituted into his treatment during his detention?

John O'Sullivan, 57, Grattan Street, Cork, was arrested on the 22nd February and detained in Cork military detention barracks until 3rd March, when he was transferred to the military hospital as being mentally defective. On the 1st April he was certified by the medical officer as fit for discharge to relatives and was handed over to his mother the same day. No complaints have been received at any time concerning his treatment, and it does not appear necessary to hold any inquiry.

Is no compensation ever forthcoming when a man is obviously arrested by mistake and kept under detention without any reason being shown?

I do not admit that he was arrested by mistake: the unfortunate man went out of his mind, and the Government are not responsible for that.

Auxiliary Cadets (Looting Charges)

asked the Chief Secretary whether the auxiliaries placed under arrest by Brigadier-General Crozier, C.B., C.M.G., D.S.O., to await field-general court-martial on a charge of looting at Trim have yet been tried; whether the auxiliaries dismissed by General Crozier as unsuitable as a result of his inquiries into the Trim looting have been tried; and what has been the finding and sentence, if any, in each case?

As I stated in reply to a question by the hon. Member for the Spennymoor Division on the 20th ultimo, 18 cadets are at present awaiting trial on charges of looting and robbery, at Trim. This number includes five of the cadets who were dismissed by General Crozier and also includes several men who were neither arrested or dismissed by General Crozier. Nineteen of the cadets who were dismissed by General Crozier have been exonerated as the result of the subsequent inquiry and have returned to duty. It is expected that the trials of the 18 men now under arrest, the arrangements for which, I would point out involve the consideration and sifting of a very large mass of evidence will be held towards the end of this month.

Are we to understand that these 19 men who refused to give evidence, and tried to hide up crime, have been sent back without any stain at all upon their character?

A very careful inquiry was held. Eighteen were found to have evidence against them. Nineteen were exonerated.

Was General Crozier and his adjutant, Captain Macfie, asked to give evidence at all at the inquiry into the reinstatement of these 19 men?

Is it not very obvious that General Crozier and his adjutant were principal witnesses in this case, and how can the inquiry have been full when these were not called?

General Crozier was not a witness for the prosecution. All the witnesses who could speak to the facts connected with the prosecution were examined. I take it that General Crozier knew nothing about it except what he was told.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that General Crozier's investigation discovered that these cadets, who have been reinstated, prevaricated and tried to conceal the crime of looting by their comrades; was not General Crozier's evidence necessary in any inquiry? Did he not go to Trim and interview the woman who had been robbed?

Maternity and Child Welfare

asked the Chief Secretary whether he has received representations as to unnecessary suffering caused to expectant mothers and to women with new-born children through certain police and military regulations in Ireland; and whether he will consider the appointment of a committee of medical and infant welfare experts to consult with the military authorities as to the best methods of obviating or minimising such suffering?

My right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary has received no representations of this nature and has no reason to think that there are any grounds on which the appointment of a committee such as is suggested would be justified. He will be glad, however, to consider any representations that may be made to him on the matter. All doctors and nurses who choose to apply for curfew permits can obtain them. Doctors and nurses are also expressly exempted from motor restrictions and can use motor vehicles without restriction as to distance or time.

Sinn Fein and Soviet Russia

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government have any evidence of negotiations between the Russian Soviet Government and Sinn Fein in Ireland; and will he inform the House of the nature of the same?

I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to his previous question on the 21st ultimo.

Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman then promised that a White Paper would be submitted; and if the Government have this information why do they not present it to the House?

Land Purchase Bill

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the urgency of completing the policy of land purchase in Ireland; and is he able to give an assurance that the Land Purchase (Ireland) Bill will be taken this Session?

This Bill will be presented immediately the exigencies of Parliamentary time permit.

Questions

Newspaper Articles

asked the Prime Minister whether he has received any report from the Director of Public Prosecutions regarding the allegations against Cabinet Ministers contained in a paper called "Plain English"; whether the report recommends any prosecution of the editor or publisher; and whether the Government has any intention of prosecuting the parties responsible?

The Prime Minister has asked me to reply to this question. The Director of Public Prosecutions informs me that he obtained the articles to which the question refers, and formed the opinion that no action by him was necessary or desirable, as he saw no reason to differ from the view expressed by the Secretary of State in the answer given in this House on the 10th March, to the effect that the statements were obviously and outrageously false, and could be made only for the purpose of advertising the periodical, and that a prosecution would only further that purpose. The true account of the Battle of Jutland is contained in the "Official Despatches with Appendices," published by the Admiralty.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this paper maintains that a false account of the Battle of Jutland was issued for the purpose of allowing certain individuals to make money upon the Stock Exchange, and that the accusation or allegation is made that certain Cabinet Ministers are involved? In view of the fact that subsequent to the answer made to my previous question the editor challenges the Government to prosecute him, are the Government not now prepared to take action against this individual, when they have taken action against, and sent to prison, humbler individuals for lesser offences than making charges against the public honesty of officials of the Government?

The matter was sent to the Public Prosecutor, and his opinion taken. I have read it. The Government abide by that opinion.

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I wish to ask you if it is possible for a private Member to move a Motion to summon the editor of this paper to the Bar of this House for maligning Members, and making accusations against Cabinet Ministers, thereby bringing the Government of this country into disrepute?

I should like to see the Motion before I give an opinion upon it. I do not think it would be very effective.

Sweepstakes

asked the Prime Minister whether it is the policy of the Government not to interfere with sweepstakes upon the Derby promoted by the London Stock Exchange and the principal political clubs, despite the fact that such sweepstakes have been held by the Courts to be illegal under the Lottery Acts?

I have been asked to reply to this question. The policy of the Government is to enforce the law, and each case submitted to the authorities is considered on its merits. But it is not the fact that sweepstakes upon the Derby, participation in which is strictly confined to members of genuine and bonâ fide clubs (political or otherwise), have been held illegal under the Lottery Act. With regard to the sweepstake on the London Stock Exchange, I have nothing to add to the answer given by the Home Secretary on this subject on Monday last.

If I furnish the hon. Member with evidence that members of the Stock Exchange are furnishing these tickets for the sweepstake to their clients, and that thousands of these tickets have been sold outside the Stock Exchange, at a premium, will he consult the Public Prosecutor with a view to taking proceedings similar to those recently instituted against the more or less honourable member for South Hackney?

Anything that the hon. Member can bring to the notice of the Home Secretary will receive due attention.

Is there any difference between members of the Stock Exchange carrying on a lottery and their ordinary business?

Anglo-Japanese Treaty

asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to renew the Anglo-Japanese Treaty; whether the terms of the treaty will be submitted to the House for ratification; whether the Government will insist upon Japan recognising her obligations, under the present treaty, to maintain the independence and territorial integrity of Korea and China; and whether the restoration to Korea of her governmental, educational, and other national institutions, now dominated by Japan, will be made one of the conditions of the treaty, together with the cancellation of the treaty between China and Japan, which was signed as a result of Japan's ultimatum to China on 7th May, 1915?

The question of the renewal of the Anglo-Japanese agreement will be considered at the forthcoming meeting of the Imperial Cabinet, and I cannot at present make any statement on the subject.

May we take it that there will be an opportunity for this matter being explained to the House, and an opportunity for discussing it before it is finally ratified, after the negotiations have taken place?

Will the House have an opportunity of discussing the terms of the treaty before it is entered into and signed by the Government's representatives?

When will the House receive any information as to when the treaty is likely to be signed, so that further opportunity will be given to raise the matter in the House before the treaty is actually accomplished?

Will the precedents of 1902 and 1911 be followed, when the Foreign Secretary made a statement of the contents immediately after ratification?

As soon as the Government is in a position to give information to the House they will do so.

As this is the first treaty that comes up for ratification since the Covenant of the League of Nations was passed by this House, does not that alter the position, and ought we not to have an opportunity of discussing the question?

Licensing Conference

asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the indefinite postponement of the introduction of the Licensing Bill, he will consider the advisability of appointing a Royal Commission in place of the suggested Committee, so as to enable evidence to be given by representatives of the various interests concerned, and in order that a Bill may be subsequently drafted founded on the recommendations of the Commission?

In the view of the Government, the particular questions which still have to be considered before the introduction of a Licensing Bill do not call for the appointment of a Royal Commission but are rather suited to such a conference as has been suggested by Members of this House.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether representatives of the different interests concerned will have any opportunity of submitting their views to Members of the Conference?

I cannot say at the present time what procedure the Government will think it necessary to adopt, but I should be inclined to suppose that the Conference would not take evidence.

Has the personnel of the Conference been in any way considered or decided upon?

Ministry of Munitions (Inquiry)

asked the Prime Minister by whom were the costs of the preparation and presentment of the case, and the travelling expenses and maintenance of the witnesses called in opposition to the allegations inquired into at the Ministry of Munitions Inquiry, de frayed?

In accordance with the usual practice, the costs incurred in preparing and presenting the defence against allegations made against public servants in respect of the discharge of their official duties are being defrayed from public funds.

asked the Prime Minister by whom the costs of the preparation and presentment of the case, and the travelling expenses and maintenance of the witnesses called in support of the allegations inquired into at the Ministry of Munitions inquiry, de frayed; was any offer of legal assistance in the preparation and presentation of the case made to the hon. Member for East Bradford (Captain Loseby) by the Government, or was the whole labour and expenses in respect thereof left to and incurred by him; and, if so, is it in the public interest that where this House has decided that there is a case against a Ministry of State to be investigated, and has set up a special tribunal for the purpose, it should be left to a private Member to decide what evidence should be called and how the case should be conducted, to act apparently as public prosecutor, and, in addition, to be mulcted in heavy expenses?

I am not aware by whom the costs mentioned in the first part of the question are being defrayed. No offer of legal assistance in the matter has been made by the Government to the hon. Member for East Bradford, nor has any application for such assistance been made by him. I do not think that we should be justified in defraying from public funds the cost of private persons preferring charges against a public Department unless and until such charges have been found to be substantiated, in which case I think the question ought to be reconsidered.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that paying the costs of one side and not of the other will really lead a private Member to be active in ferreting out matters that may be wrong in the public service?

I believe that in this matter the Government are following precedent, and I think the precedent is a wise one in the public interest.

Government Staffs

Temporary Employés

asked the First Lord of the Treasury to state why, although the monthly average index figure of the cost of living, from July, 1920, to March, 1921, exceeded the monthly average for the period March, 1920, to June, 1920, by no less than 21·08 points, and that permanent civil servants have been partially compensated for such increase, no increase has been granted to temporary civil servants since July, 1920; whether the Treasury has the money with which to pay a small increase to the temporary staffs whose rates of pay com- pare very unfavourably with those of the permanent staffs doing similar work; whether any negotiations are at the moment being carried on between the Treasury and the staff representatives with a view to the payment of increased salaries; and, if so, whether the negotiations are being considered seriously or are only being protracted purposely to quieten the temporary staffs and to avoid a further claim being lodged with the Arbitration Board?

In November, 1920, after discussion and agreement with representatives of the staffs involved, an increase of pay of 5s. a week a head was granted to adult temporary clerks and Post Office manipulative employés on standard consolidated rates of pay with effect from the 1st July and the 1st March, 1920. For employed under 21 the increase was 2s. 6d. a week a head from the same dates. Discussion of a claim for a further increase is proceeding between the official and the staff sides of a Committee of the National Whitley Council. There is no ground for the implication that this discussion has been protracted in order to avoid reference to the Civil Service Arbitration Board of the claim, which has already been heard by that Board and referred back by them for further consideration by the two sides of the Committee. The provision included in the current year's Estimates has not been calculated to cover a further increase of pay to these staffs.

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in connection with Government Departments, he will consider the desirability of setting up a central appeal tribunal, at which cases of substitution of non-service persons and dismissals of ex-service persons may be reviewed, having first been removed from the jurisdiction of Departmental chiefs or sub-Departmental officers, in order to ensure that the just claims of temporary clerks may be dealt with on their merits and that uniformity may be observed in giving effect to the recommendations of the Interim Report of Lord Lytton's Committee?

A central body has been set up to co-ordinate the action of Departments in putting into effect the recommendations of Lord Lytton's Committee, but I do not think it desirable or practicable to extend its functions to include review of decisions taken by the competent authorities to discharge, or report as redundant, individual members of their staffs.

Superannuation

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury when the Report on the question of the superannuation of civil servants which was inquired into by the National Whitley Council in the summer of 1919 will be made?

I understand that no forecast can at present be given as to the date when the Committee of the Civil Service National Whitley Council, set up last autumn to consider the general question of superannuation in the Civil Service, will be in a position to report to the Council.

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether Civil Servants who have 40 years' service, or have reached the age of 60 but are not at the compulsory retiring limit, are being allowed to retire now, so as to secure in their pension the inclusion of the full war bonus prior to the reduction of this bonus due in September next; and whether any arrangements will be made to revise such pensions?

Under the Superannuation Acts and Orders in Council governing the Civil Service it is open to a civil servant on reaching the age of 60 to retire, or to the head of his Department to call on him to do so, on the pension for which he is qualified by length of service. In exercising that choice a civil servant may no doubt have regard to the effect of war bonus on his pension. It is not proposed to make any arrangement for revising pensions once awarded.

Customs and Excise

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether there is a shortage of officers of Customs and Excise; and, if so, will he consider the advisability of offering appointments to the remainder of the 113 unsuccessful ex-service candidates who passed the qualifying examination?

There is not at present any shortage of officers of Customs and Excise. As regards the second part of the question, I Would refer my hon. Friend to my answer to my hon. Friend the Member for the Frome Division on the 28th April.

Questions

Nyasaland (Export Duties)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if the Export Tax on tobacco, tea, and cotton from Nyasaland still exists?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why the Government of Nyasaland asked for the co-operation of the Nyasaland Chamber of Commerce and Agriculture to discuss the Export Tax on tobacco for the first time only on the 20th November, 1920, although the Chamber had offered to discuss the matter six months previously, in view of the fact that the financial position of the tobacco industry became critical long before 20th November, 1920?

It was essential for revenue purposes to maintain the export duties on tobacco, cotton and tea until other forms of taxation could be devised. The Governor was in close touch with the industries concerned, and I have no reason to suppose that he in any way disregarded the interests of these industries in his action with regard to the duties.

Could the hon. Gentleman answer the last part of my question, as to why the Chamber of Commerce and Agriculture were not consulted until six months after the crisis had commenced? Is he aware of the grave dissatisfaction on their part and that of settlers generally with the action of the Nyasaland Government and of the Colonial Office in the matter?

I read my Noble Friend's question with great care, and if he will read my answer with equal care he will see that it covers that point.

Unfit Horses (Export)

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is now able to state how many pit or other ponies were exported from this country and sold in Belgium for the purpose of being vivisected since last October; and whether he will at once take steps to stop this inhumanity?

No pit or other ponies were exported from this country for the purpose of being vivisected, but the Ministry has been informed by the Veterinary College at Brussels that, since October, 1920, amongst the 70 horses bought by the college for experimental purposes were 10 ponies which originally came from England. The Ministry is also informed by the principal of the school that no operation is performed on animals except under anæsthetics, and that operations of magnitude for the purpose of tuition are performed only on dead animals.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that we have no control over the practice of vivisection in foreign countries, and will he get an undertaking that none of our poor, worn-out horses shall be sent abroad to be experimented upon and vivisected as persons think fit?

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has yet been able to arrange with the Dutch and Belgian Governments for the humane slaughter in this country of worn-out old horses which are required for food in Holland and Belgium instead of having them exported to those countries alive and slaughtered there?

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will inform the House as to the progress which has been made in his negotiations with the Dutch and Belgian Governments for the slaughter in this country of horses in tended for food in Holland or Belgium?

The negotiations which have been opened with the Dutch and Belgian Governments have not as yet reached a stage on which any report can be made, but it is expected that a meeting of officials of those Governments and a representative of the Ministry will take place on the Continent towards the end of the present month.

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman give an assurance that these negotiations shall be proceeded with as quickly as possible, in order to avoid this torture?

Potatoes

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he can state the quantity and value of potatoes imported into this country from Holland and Germany, respectively, during the past six months?

I have been asked to reply. The imports of potatoes into this country, consigned from the Netherlands, registered during the six months ended 30th April, 1921, amounted to 13,215 cwts., valued at £6,153. There were no consignments of potatoes from Germany to the United Kingdom during this period.

Aerodrome, Southbourne (Compensation Claim)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the fact that Captain Pilcher, War Department land agent, agreed with Mr. Everall, of Westbourne, near Emsworth, on the sum of £2,000, in August last, for compensation and reinstatement in respect of land taken for the Southbourne aerodrome, and that, despite constant applications by both Mr. Everall and the West Sussex branch of the National Farmers' Union, no payment has yet been made; and whether he will at once order the money to be paid with interest from the date of the agreement and ascertain the name of and visit with disciplinary action the person or persons in his Department responsible for the delay?

The report on this claim, together with the form of acceptance of the agreed sum of £2,000, was received in the War Office in January last, but further correspondence was necessary to elucidate certain figures. After the concurrence of the Departments concerned had been obtained, the claim was finally sent to the War Compensation Court for their sanction, without a hearing, to the payment of the agreed sum. The Court, however, expressed a desire to hear the claim before making their determination, and the claim is being submitted to them in the form for hearing.

In view of the fact that great loss has ensued to this gentleman in this case, will my hon. and gallant Friend make inquiry as to why it took no less than four months for a suggestion made by one of the War Department's own officers to go from Chichester to the War Office?

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that constantly claims on the War Office are made all over the country on behalf of the Farmers' Union and other bodies, which are never met for months afterwards, and that if that happened in the case of a private individual he would find himself in the County Court?

I am not aware that that is the fact. As a matter of fact, any claims that come to us have to go to the War Compensation Committee. We cannot settle them definitely.

Territorial Army

Camps

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that many Territorials are serving in the Defence Force, he proposes to cancel the Territorial Army camps proposed for this summer?

Owing to the present emergency and consequent difficulties of transportation, and to the fact that many officers and men of the Territorial Army are serving with the Defence Force, it has been necessary to cancel those Territorial camps which were arranged to take place during May and until the middle of June. There is, however, no intention of cancelling the annual training in camp of Territorial units arranged for after that date.

Will service of Territorials in the Defence Force count towards their period in camp under their Territorial obligation?

Equipment

asked the Secretary of State for War whether Territorial Army equipment issued to the Defence Force will be replaced or renewed; and whether any part of the cost of this will be borne on the Estimates for the Territorial Army?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Any cost involved will not fall on the funds at the disposal of Territorial Associations or be included in the accounts as part of the cost of the Territorial Army.

1914–15 Star (Wessex Regiments)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can announce that the 1914–15 Star will be awarded to the Wessex Territorials in fulfilment of the promise given to them by the late Lord Kitchener?

I regret I can add nothing at present to the reply given on 12th April last to a similar question asked by my hon. Friend.

Can the hon. Baronet give us some idea when a question to this effect will get some answer?

Can the hon. Baronet tell me to what regiment the Wessex Territorials belong? Who are they, and what is their regiment?

I must refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the Army List. They include practically all the Territorials in the West of England.

Questions

British Army

Recalled Officers (Allowances)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether his policy with regard to gratuity payable to members of the Reserve of Officers is in accordance with the provisions of Article 497 of Royal Warrant for Pay of the Army; whether under the said article a gratuity equal to 31 days' pay for each year or part of a year of service is payable, and in the past has always been paid, to members of the Regular Reserve of Officers at the termination of their period of service when recalled for service in an emergency; whether this article has been cancelled or modified by Army Order 154, of 1921; whether the last-mentioned Order was not issued until after the recent Royal Proclamation calling up officers of the Regular Reserve for service in the present emergency and after many of them had rejoined; and whether, under such circumstances, the refusal to them of the gratuity payable under the warrant in force when they were called up amounts to a breach of faith?

The Royal Warrant placing Article 497 in abeyance was promulgated in Army Order 392, in September of last year, and I cannot, therefore, accept my hon. Friend's suggestion that there has been any breach of faith. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the Army Order.

Guards' Memorial (St. James's Park)

asked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether it is proposed to place in St. James's Park a Memorial to the Guardsmen who fell during the Great War; and, if so, can he supply the House with information regarding the site of the Memorial and any works to be carried out in connection with it?

As already announced on 2nd August, 1920, it was suggested that a Memorial to the Guards' Division should be erected opposite to the Horse Guards Parade. After careful consideration, it has been decided to invite the consent of Parliament to the proposal. The Memorial itself will be paid for by public subscription. The diversion of the existing roadway in St. James's Park, estimated to cost £22,500, will be met from funds allotted, to the Office of Works for the relief of unemployment. The obvious disadvantage of the scheme lies in the fact that a number of trees will be sacrificed, but many of these trees, now standing in the existing roadways, are rootbound and indifferent specimens, and every tree removed will be replaced by two new ones. On the other hand, the scheme has the material advantage of increasing the area of St. James's Park by half an acre, in addition to the new grass plots extending to three-quarters of an acre opposite the Foreign Office and India Office. Plans will be shown in the Tea Room, and I am anxious to confer with hon. Members on the subject.

What opportunity will be given to hon. Members to confer on the subject?

It is proposed after we resume after Whitsuntide that the First Commissioner will meet hon. Members in a Committee Room to discuss the matter.

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman give an undertaking that no alterations will take place in the Park until the palaces built for the use of clerks have been removed?

Questions

Hampton Court Park (Football)

asked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether there is any proposal to extend the facilities for the playing of football in Hampton Court Park; and if any details as to these increased facilities are now available?

The Office of Works proposes to level and lay out eight football grounds in the north-eastern portion of Hampton Court Park. The cost, which is estimated at £5,000, will be defrayed from funds voted for the relief of the unemployed. Suitable accommodation for the players can be provided by improving a disused building in the park, and the eastern boundary of the new football grounds will be planted. The use of the grounds will be allotted by ballot to accredited clubs. I am placing in the Library a map illustrating the disposition of the grounds. I beg to inform the House that the King's assent has been signified.

Afghanistan

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he can now make any statement regarding the negotiations being carried on with Afghanistan; and whether he can give any information about the Bolshevist propaganda in that country?

My right hon. Friend cannot at present make any statement except that the negotiations are proceeding. He is not in a position to give any information in reply to the second part of the question.

Indian Army (Dress)

asked the Secretary of State for India whether the alterations in dress effected by Indian Army Orders No. 92 and No. 96, of February, 1921, have been carried out for reasons of economy, or for what reason; and whether he is aware that these alterations in the badges and shoulder titles which have been worn by Indian regiments for many years are causing disappointment amongst the troops concerned?

My right hon. Friend is not aware of the reasons for the changes which has been ordered by the Commander-in-Chief, but they appear to be entirely within his competence to deal with. He is not aware that the alterations referred to have caused disappointment.

Milk

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will take steps to bring the present price of 8d. a quart for milk in the Metropolitan area under the review of either a profiteering committee or the Standing Committee on Trusts and Prices, or a Sub-committee thereof?

I would refer my hon. and learned Friend to the answers given on Monday to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South Battersea, and my hon. Friend the Member for South Islington.

Daylight Saving (Extension)

asked the President of the Board of Education if he has been consulted in regard to the further extension of the hours of daylight; is he aware of the increased difficulties of teachers due to lack of adequate sleep among the scholars; and, if so, does he propose to issue any instructions to delay the hour of opening?

I may refer the hon. Member to my right hon. Friend's reply of the 18th April to the hon. Member for the Newton Division. The Board do not prescribe the hour at which public elementary schools shall be opened, and it is competent for a local education authority, in consultation with His Majesty's Inspector, to adjust the time of opening to circumstances.

German Reparation

Allied Conditions Accepted

Prime Minister's Announcement

Can the Prime Minister give any information as to the answer of the German Government to the recent ultimatum?

On 5th May on behalf of the Supreme Council I delivered a series of demands to the Ambassador for the German Government, and at 11 o'clock this morning he came and handed me the following document:

"Mr. PRIME MINISTER,

In accordance with instructions just received, I am commanded by my Government, in accordance with the decision of the Reichstag, and with reference to the resolution of the Allied Powers of the 5th of May, 1921, in the name of the new German Government, to declare, as desired, the following:—

The German Government is resolved:

I ask the Allied Powers to take note immediately of this Declaration, etc., etc.

(Signed) STHAMER"

I immediately wired to all the other Governments—it was handed to me as President of the Supreme Council held in London—that in my opinion this is a complete acceptance of every demand.

In view of the acceptance, will the Reparation (Recovery) Act now be suspended?

Upper Silesia

( by Private Notice ) asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he has any further information he can give the House about the position in Silesia?

I am sorry to say that the position is that the Polish party, who appear to be well-organised and amply supplied with arms and material, have, under the leadership of Korfanty, occupied the greater part of Upper Silesia, including the industrial district, after some resistance from the Allied troops, especially the Italian contingent. On the face of it this action is a deliberate attempt to frustrate the operation of the Treaty of Versailles, under which the Allied Governments are bound to determine the frontier between Germany and Poland in accordance with the results of the plebiscite recently held. I need hardly say that His Majesty's Government—and I feel sure that I can also say the same on behalf of our Allies—have no intention whatever of allowing the recent deplorable events to divert them in any way from the just execution of the Treaty as regards Upper Silesia. The House will, however, realise that the insurrectionary movement, which we have watched from the beginning with the utmost concern, has created a most difficult and delicate situation. I should prefer for the moment to confine myself to saying that we are in close consultation with the Allied Governments as to the best way of dealing with it, and that we have already made certain practical proposals which are under consideration.

Is there any truth in the telegram in the "Times" this morning that arrangements have been come to with Korfanty, whereby the insurgents are to control a particular area and the Allied troops are to retire?

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question as to whether, under no consideration, will any fait accompli be recognised in regard to this matter?

I have read to the House a considered statement on a very delicate foreign situation, and I hope my hon. and gallant Friend and other hon. Members will not press me to say more.

Questions

Members of Parliament (Railway Passes)

( by Private Notice ) asked the Leader of the House whether the Government, while arranging for free railway passes for Members from London to their constituencies, and from London to their homes, has resolved not to grant passes from Members' homes to their constituencies; whether the Cabinet realise that Members who do not live in their constituencies rarely, and some never, visit their constituencies direct from London, but often, and some always, from their homes; and if passes from London and from their homes to their constituencies cannot both be given, will he allow Members to choose which of these two passes they prefer?

( by Private Notice ) asked the Leader of the House whether he is in a position to add to Members' salaries without the consent of this House, and if he will give the House an early opportunity of debating the matter?

In reply to the first question which was put to me my reply to the first part of it is in the affirmative. The object of the concession is to facilitate the discharge by Members of their duty to this House, and therefore the Government is unable to accept the suggestion contained in the last part of the question. As regards the question put by my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) I observe that there is a series of other questions on this subject covering the point to which my right hon. Friend refers. Therefore I shall be obliged if he will defer his point until to-morrow, and if hon. Members will also defer their supplementaries until to morrow, when I shall make a fuller statement on the subject.

The right hon. Gentleman has announced that he will grant railway passes to hon. Members from London to their constituencies. If the sole object of doing this be to enable hon. Members to attend to their Parliamentary duties, why will he not grant such passes to hon. Members from their homes to their constituencies?

Railways Bill

May I point out to the Leader of the House that copies of the Railway Bill are not obtainable now at the Vote Office and, in view of the great importance of that Measure, will he take steps to enable Members to obtain copies?

That Bill is to be presented to-day, and immediately after presentation copies will be available.

Bills Presented

Protection of Animals Bill,

"to re-enact and consolidate, with Amendments, certain enactments relating to animals, knackers, and knackers' yards, and to make further provision with respect thereto and with respect to slaughter-houses, and to repeal certain enactments, and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid," presented by Mr. ALFRED DAVIES; supported by Mr. Clynes, Mr. Thomas Shaw, and Mr. James Bell; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 31st May, and to be printed. [Bill 109.]

Railways Bill,

"to provide for the re-organisation and further regulation of railways and the discharge of liabilities arising in connection with the possession of railways, and otherwise to amend the Law relating to railways, and to extend the duration of the Rates Advisory Committee," presented by Sir ERIC GEDDES; supported by Mr. Austen Chamberlain, Sir Robert Home, Mr. Shortt, Sir Gordon Hewart, Mr. Baldwin, Mr. Munro, and Mr. Neal; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and, to be printed. [Bill 110.]

Business of the House

Ordered, "That the Proceedings of the Committee of Ways and Means be exempted at this day's sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House).—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]

Housing Bill

Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee B.

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.

Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 102.]

Bills Reported

Limerick Markets Bill,

Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.

Bill to be read the Third time.

British Dye Stuffs Corporation (Railways Transfer) Bill,

Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table.

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to,—

Treaty of Peace (Hungary) Bill, without Amendment.

Public Health (Tuberculosis) Bill,

Herts and Essex Water Bill, with Amendments.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to consolidate, with Amendments, the local Acts in force within the city of Liverpool; to provide for the union of the parishes therein and to consolidate the local rates leviable in the city; to authorise the construction of new tramways and street improvements and to make provision in regard to the various undertakings of the Corporation; to make better provision for the health, local government, and finance of the city; and for other purposes" [Liverpool Corporation Bill [ Lords. ]

And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to transfer to and vest in the Mid-Glamorgan Water Board the water undertaking of the Bridgend (Glamorganshire) Gas and Water Company; to extend the limits of the Board for the supply of water; and for other purposes"[Mid-Glamorgan Water Board Bill [ Lords. ]

Consolidation Bills—That they have appointed a Committee consisting of Five Lords to join with a Committee of the Commons to consider all Consolidation Bills in the present Session and request this House to appoint an equal number of their Members to be joined with the said Lords.

Liverpool Corporation Bill [ Lords ],

Mid-Glamorgan Water Board Bill [ Lords ], Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Orders of the Day

Ways and Means

Considered in Committee. [ Progress, 10th May. ]

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

Safeguarding of Industries

Question again proposed,

1. "That for a period of five years from the passing of an Act for giving effect to this Resolution there shall he charged on any of the following articles imported into Great Britain or Ireland a customs duty of an amount equal to 33⅓ per cent. of the value of the article, that is to say:

I should like to ask you, Mr. Chairman, for the guidance of the Committee, if you would indicate the first two or three Amendments which are going to be discussed.

After the first Amendment—after the word "articles" ["any of the following articles"], to insert the words "made in Germany and "—has been disposed of I propose to call upon the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Lyle-Samuel) to move to leave out paragraph ( a ), and then I propose to call upon the hon. Member for Whitechapel (Mr. Kiley) to move to leave out paragraph ( b ).

Do I understand that you do not intend to call the Amendment standing in my name—to leave out the words "or Ireland"?

4.0 P.M.

This matter has given me considerable thought, but I feel myself unable to call both the first and second Amendments, in view of the importance of other questions raised, and I have been informed that there is a balance of opinion among the critics of the Bill that they would prefer the discussion on the first Amendment.

I beg to move, after the word "articles" ["any of the following articles"], to insert the words "made in Germany and".

The effect of this Amendment will be to confine the duty of 33⅓ per cent. to articles which have come from Germany. I move it because the whole basis of the Bill, I suggest, was the difficulties which we encountered during the War, when we found that we were so largely dependent upon Germany for articles necessary for carrying on the War, and, indeed, for our national existence. The Prime Minister on more than one occasion has suggested that he also considered that this Bill was based upon the difficulties which we then encountered. I notice that in an interview which he gave to the "Lloyd George Magazine" in October last he said: kind would be entirely met if it were restricted to articles coming from Germany. The Bill is entirely due to our dependence upon Germany prior to the War, and it was called forth by an agitation against Germany and a desire that in future we should not be dependent upon Germany as we have been in the past. That is the first ground upon which I put forward this Amendment, but there is another ground. When we found ourselves dependent upon Germany to such an unfortunate extent, we appealed to other countries—America, Switzerland, and other European countries—to come to our assistance, and they did so in a most wonderful way. Switzerland, for instance, supplied us with large quantities of chemicals and glass and other articles of that description. America also in her turn supplied us with many things which otherwise we could not have got and which previously we had obtained from Germany. We are therefore under a great obligation to them, and it seems to me that it would be unbefitting us if we were now to turn round and try to kill the particular industries which were called into being in those countries by their efforts to help us. Other countries, particularly our own Allies, performed most distinguished service for us during the War, and the least that we can do now is not to put any obstacle in their continuing the work which they started and in making use of the capital which they sunk in order to help us. The whole point of my Amendment, therefore, is that this Bill is directed against Germany; it was promised as the result of a demand that in future we should not be dependent upon Germany; and, if its operations are confined to Germany alone, that demand will be entirely met and all the promises which have been given will be fulfilled.

I regret that I cannot accept this Amendment. The object of the Bill, after all, is to make ourselves self-sufficient, and I am rather surprised that an hon. Member on the opposite Benches should wish to signalise the acceptance by Germany of the Allies' conditions by specially penalising Germany as against everybody else.

Surely the answer which the right hon. Gentleman has given my hon. and gallant Friend should not have been made. His speech was about the most ridiculous that we have ever heard from that Bench, because two minutes ago the Leader of the House was asked whether, in view of this acceptance by Germany, they would withdraw the iniquitous German Reparation (Recovery) Act. Now the right hon. Gentleman gets up and says that there is nothing in substance in what my hon. and gallant Friend has said, because Germany has accepted the Ultimatum. Does my right hon. Friend honestly mean that as an argument, or is it a way of evading this particular Amendment? This Amendment is put down in order to ascertain what are the Government's views with regard to the Bill which is to be founded upon these Resolutions. As these Resolutions are drawn, the imposts will affect countries which were our Allies during the War, and, if the argument which the right hon. Gentleman has used with regard to some sort of generosity towards Germany being shown has anything in it, surely we ought to act much more generously towards our Allies who did support us during the War and who did supply us with those articles in which we were deficient. That is a point which the right hon. Gentleman has not answered, and, if that is the method by which the Government are going to meet Amendments, they cannot hope that they will be disposed of with that extreme degree of courtesy on both sides and with that desire to meet the time and convenience of the House which otherwise might have been expected had my hon. and gallant Friend's Amendment been taken quite seriously.

I deeply regret the reply of the right hon. Gentleman to this Amendment. Surely, it must be obvious that this Amendment does not penalise Germany in any way though it excludes other articles. Many of the claims that are put forward in this country for protection and help from the Government are based on the fact that firms have been led during the course of the War to incur great capital expenditure; and, because that capital has not been fully productive, there is supposed to be a claim on the Government. During the War we received great help from Switzerland, particularly in chemicals and colours, though colours, of course, do not come under the operations of this Bill. Whilst undoubtedly it was dome with a view to their own ultimate benefit, it was also done to help us, and they did incur very large capital expenditure. Are we now that we want to become self-sufficient, going to say to these neutrals: "We are going to put on a tariff so as to exclude your goods from this country"? This is a limiting Amendment. It does not put Germany in any worse position. It rather enables us to do that which I believe the British Government has always wanted to do, namely, the right and generous thing towards those who helped us in our time of trouble. I therefore shall have great pleasure in supporting the Amendment.

I cannot possibly support the Amendment, and I am surprised that it should have been moved in the way that it has been moved. I shall support the Government on this and on every occasion when there is any question of trying to introduce discriminating duties, whether against former Allies, neutrals, or former enemies. The one thing for which this House ought to stand is the abolition of discriminating duties of all sorts, and particularly in this case. If there be any object in the Bill, it is to protect our own key industries, and there are just as many industries affected by competition from Allied and neutral countries as by competition from Germany. If this House begins to discriminate between the two, it will be disastrous. I do not support the duties as a whole, because I believe that they will limit the choice of persons in this country to obtain the best article that they can in the open market, but, for all that, I shall support the Government if there be a Division on this Amendment.

This Amendment has served a very useful purpose. It has brought out the true nature of the action of the Government in this matter. We have been told that this policy with regard to key industries and anti-dumping is based upon the Paris Resolutions. The Paris Resolutions were an essential part of the War and were directed against a then very powerful enemy whom it was feared would use its power in the future, as it is supposed to have done in the past to cripple our industries. That state of things has entirely passed. Notwithstanding, the Paris Resolutions are used not only to guard against the evil which was then supposed to exist, but also to intro- duce a wholesale system of protection of certain industries against all the world. This Amendment in having brought out that point will have done very valuable service, and I suggest to my hon. and gallant Friend that he might be very well satisfied in having done a good piece of work.

Might I ask the Minister in charge of the Bill a question about this Amendment, which deals with key industry articles imported from Germany? Do we understand that these articles enumerated in the list in the first Resolution will be subjected, in the first place, to 33⅓ per cent. duty inasmuch as they are key industry articles, and, subsequently, to another 33⅓ per cent. duty because they come from a country which has a depreciated currency? That is an important fact which we ought to elicit before we decide whether the Amendment is a wise one or not.

I should like to say another word, because I do not want my hon. Friend (Mr. Hogge) to charge me with discourtesy. The reason I was so brief in my answer was that no one rose to support the hon. and gallant Member who moved the Amendment. I concluded that there was only one point to answer, and I thought that in saying that we wished to make ourselves self-sufficient, I had given the answer. I have given the answer, but I can expand it, because by "self-sufficient" I meant with regard to key industries that we want to be independent of anyone, whether former Allies or Neutrals or Germany. I would remind hon. Members that if there are goods which are essential in time of war, you do not want to get them even from Allies or Neutrals, because, among other reasons, of the difficulty of making payment as the war goes on for the goods received. During the last War we were in the utmost straits to pay even for necessary food and munitions that came to this country, and it became a matter of vital concern to do without anything coming overseas which could be done without for which remittances had to be sent. My hon. Friend assumes correctly that the duty of 33⅓ per cent. on the key industries, which is to correct the depreciation of exchange, may be put on if it is the case that without that duty they can still be dumped owing to the rate of exchange.

Then, I understand that first of all this article from Germany is charged what will be found to be 100 per cent. as Reparation Duty. Then it is subject to 33⅓ per cent. under the First Resolution, and in addition to 33⅓ per cent. under the Second Resolution, so that there is a total duty of 166⅔ per cent. That throws a striking light on the real measure of protection afforded.

The Prime Minister a few minutes ago told us that what is known as the German Reparation will remain in force. The effect will be that no German manufacturer will supply any goods without prepayment. Therefore if you send the money for what you require, the Customs will then demand payment of 100 per cent. of the amount which you pay. That confirms what the hon. and gallant Gentleman has told us, that first 100 per cent. must be paid, then 33⅓ per; cent, for key industries, and then 33⅓ per cent. for depreciated exchange. It would be far better to prohibit importation altogether than to have a thing of this kind. If that is all the Government want to do, they can do it in a better way.

Amendment negatived.

May I ask the Chairman of Ways and Means why he does not call the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for East Newcastle (Major Barnes)—to leave out "33⅓" and to insert "10"?

There is quite a number of Amendments on the Paper as to which one does want to know why they have not been called. May I ask at the beginning if the Chairman would be kind enough to indicate which Amendments he is going to call, so that we may know what is to be discussed, and that Members who have Amendments down in their name may ask specifically, if they desire to move their Amendments, why they have been excluded?

The Amendment to which the hon. Member refers was not called because it is not one of those to which I have referred, of which mention was made by the critics of the Bill.

In reference to the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for East Newcastle on Page 1680 of the White Paper, to substitute another definition of key industries for that existing in the Resolution, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is going to call that, and, if not, would he hear a statement in accordance with the Standing Order as to why that Amendment should be called?

My recollection is that the Standing Order enables the Chairman, when he is in doubt, to allow an explanation to be given, but on the present occasion, having in view the fact that an arrangement has been reached, I came to the conclusion that it would be fair to the critics of the Bill, as far as possible, at any rate, on this Resolution, to allow them to select the Amendment which should be discussed, and in pursuance of representations made to me I announced at the beginning of the proceedings that, after the first Amendment had been disposed of, I would call the Amendment to leave out paragraph ( a ). At the same time, I am bound to remark that it is not incumbent under any Standing Order, or under the practice of this House, for a Chairman to be called upon to give his reasons.

I was not suggesting that. But I was suggesting that under the Standing Order it was allowable for you to permit an hon. Member when his Amendment is not called to make representations to you in favour of the calling of that Amendment, and it was in reference to this particular Amendment that he wished to make such a statement. If we pass these Resolutions as they are to-day, the Bill will be drafted so as to define key industries in a certain manner. The Amendment to which I am referring gives a definition of key industries almost in the exact terms of the definition given by the Prime Minister in several of his utterances in the country. I therefore submit that it is a matter of sufficient importance to justify you in selecting that Amendment.

A general Debate on the definition of key industries within certain limits may take place on this Amendment, but it is quite certain that I could not call this Amendment, and then allow Amendments to be moved in detail to the Schedule. If it be the wish of the Opposition to take a Debate on this Amendment, and not to take Debates on paragraphs ( a ), ( b ), ( c ), ( d ), etc., I am quite willing to allow it, but I cannot allow both.

On a point of Order. May I point out that there is nothing in the Standing Order about the Chairman being in doubt. What the Standing Order says is

"in respect of any Motion or any Bill under consideration either in Committee of the whole House or on Report, the Speaker, or in Committee the Chairman of Ways and Means and the Deputy Chairman, have power to select the new Clauses or Amendments to be proposed, and each of them may, if he thinks fit"

—those are the really qualifying words—

"call upon any Member who has given notice of an Amendment to give such explanation of the object of the Amendment as may enable him to form a judgment upon it."

I remember when those words were put in we had considerable discussion, it being the general wish of the House that any hon. Member might have an opportunity of explaining, as it was the general feeling that it was not always possible to gauge what the actual meaning of an Amendment was until the person who wished to move it had some opportunity of explaining it.

I do not think that I misinterpreted it. I do not imagine that the Chairman would call upon a Member to give an explanation so as to enable him to form a judgment had he not had previously some doubt in his mind.

I beg to move to leave out paragraph ( a ).

The first category of articles on which the lightning hand of protection is to fall are optical glass and optical elements and instruments. If the Government want to give a final blow at scientific research in this country they could not go a better way about doing so than by placing these articles in the forefront of the Resolution. I have no doubt that somewhere in the back of their minds they have a sort of notion that they are helping scientific research by excluding these instruments, but by including these optical subjects in their Resolutions they are dealing a heavy blow at all departments of research in this country. The words "whether finished or not" have a very sinister significance. We thought all along that protection was not to deal in any way with raw material. Certain of these optical elements come into this country unfinished. A great deal of skilled labour is spent on them, and therefore the Government's Resolution taxing these things is a tax on raw materials.

The first specific item is microscopes. If there is one thing more than another off which the hands of Protection should be kept it is microscopes. Microscopes are the chief foundation of medical research. I do not see why men and women engaged in medical study which is for the national benefit should have to pay a special tax. My right hon. Friend in introducing these twin Resolutions seemed to me as if he would like to play the part of the wicked uncle. The object, he told us, of these Resolutions is that in the event of any future war we should have a supply of these articles, which were necessary for the protection of the country, but if so, they should be paid for by all, and not by one class. Whatever the expense involved it should be shared by every man and woman in the country. Instead of that you have selected men and women who use microscopes and you put a tax on the instruments which they use for their scientific studies, which makes it more difficult for them to carry on these studies. It is often a very serious question for medical students how to pay for these things. I have seen them when it was a serious question as to whether they were able to buy a microscope or not. To the medical student, whether man or woman, the non-possession of a microscope is a very severe handicap. Very often students have to be without microscopes because they cannot afford to buy them. If that was the case in pre-War time, what is likely to be the position to-day? In my student days not more than 26 per cent. of the students could afford a microscope. Of course they could get instruments in the laboratory, but in order to make themselves efficient they require to have microscopes in their homes, especially as bacteriological study is now of such great importance. Already the cost of such instruments is about three times as much as it was before the War, and the Government have deliberately made up their minds that, added to that cost, there shall be this extra tax of 33⅓ per cent. A percentage of profit will, of course, be added by the seller to the 33⅓ per cent. tax. I should imagine that the result of the tax will be that microscopes will be almost prohibitive for many medical students in Scotland, and perhaps in Ireland, where people drawn from all classes enter the medical profession.

The Government are doing this in order to propitiate certain hon. Members. In every department of scientific research workers should have an unlimited field of selection for the best instruments that can be obtained. This Resolution restricts their field of selection. Even in a university laboratory the addition of £2 to the price of a microscope will make the governors of the university pause. I do not suggest that the article made at home is inferior to the article made abroad, but even scientific men have prejudices in these matters, and if they do not get the exact article they want they lose confidence in their work. You are placing a tax on the individual student, and you are adding very largely to the expenses of our universities and technical colleges at a time when their funds are more restricted than they have been for a generation. Then there are field-glasses and opera-glasses. I do not use opera-glasses very often. When they are being used by others it does not seem to me to be too polite that people on the stage should be quizzed to see whether they are painted or not In any event, I regard opera-glasses as a luxury. Field-glasses are in a different category. They are used by sailors at sea. The Government are making it more difficult for seamen to secure the glasses they require to make their work more efficient.

I see from the newspapers that a comet is coming within sight. A lot of us would like to see the comet, if possible, but if the Government make it impossible for us to buy a decent telescope many will be prevented from seeing the comet. I mention that to illustrate the fact that the Government are restricting the facilities for astronomical research. If the Government did not interfere we might be able to see the new world, of which so much has been heard during the past two years. With the naked eye I have not, so far, been able to see it, but I do not understand why the Government should make it more difficult for me to do so. Theodolites and sextants I leave to people who are at sea or who have been at sea. Then there are spectroscopes. They are scientific instruments of rare value in various departments of research. I hope the Government will tell us for what reason these scientific instruments are placed in this category. It may be said that they will be used in the war that is to come. I am not sure that the war which is to come will not be a war in which the weapon will be microbes. You ought, therefore, not to interfere with the facilities for getting microscopes for the study of microbes and micro-organisms.

The paragraph also refers to "other optical instruments." That means that if I am short-sighted in my youth, if I have myopia and have to wear glasses all my life, I am taxed for objects of very problematical value relating to the near or remote future; the boy or girl who has to wear glasses from the age of five years upwards has to pay a tax for the promotion of theoretical objects half a century hence. If such taxes are to be imposed, they should be imposed on the community at large and not merely on the wearer of spectacles. The sight of the people is one of the most valuable physical assets they have, and anything that interferes with the promotion of good sight is wholly an evil. In taxing spectacles and eyeglasses the Government are doing a wrong to the vision of the people. The lenses in the glasses used by the people have not been as good as those obtainable before the War. The field of selection during the War was restricted, and many poor people had to be content with inferior glasses for which they paid a much higher price. We all know that a tax of this sort is not represented by the bare figure of 33 per cent. It really means an increase of 100 per cent. Cameras are also included. We shall not be able to afford to take snapshots on our holidays because of the increased price of optical glass. There are many other optical instruments in the list which will be affected.

I should certainly like to see the scientific optical glass trade encouraged in this country. Generally speaking, I believe we are producing optical goods of as fine a quality as can be got. The vogue of certain German optical goods in the past has been largely due to the more scientific advertising of them. British makers were very shy and did not push their wares. I believe that by judicious advertising and by appealing to the scientific men in this country, and by bringing under their notice the fact that in certain departments our optical goods are as good as those obtainable from the Continent, far more could be done for the industry than by this method of producing sleeping sickness by means of a tax. This scheme will have a paralysing effect on the industry. Those in the industry will think they are protected by the tax and that there is no more need for progress. By this protective tax the Government are dealing a staggering blow at scientific research and especially at medical research.

I am sure everyone who has heard the interesting and illuminating speech of my hon. Friend opposite will agree with a great deal he has said as regards the extreme importance of supplying this country with a sufficient number of scientific instruments to enable all its schools, colleges, and technical institutes to carry on research, and I really believe no more forcible arguments could have been used than those the hon. Gentleman has adduced for accepting the first principle in this Resolution. I am sure he realises the necessity, and the Committee certainly will realise the necessity, that in matters of defence it is absolutely essential that we should be able to produce those instruments which are required for defence, and, dealing in the first place with instruments of defence only, I would like to point out that, at the time when the War with Germany broke out, this country was in a position in which it was absolutely impossible to obtain those optical instruments on which the lives of the soldiers and sailors of this country depended. It may not be generally known that, two years before the War broke out, Germany possessed 60,000 binoculars in a cellar which had been prepared ready for war at a time when we were unable to produce instruments with the same accuracy as those produced in other countries.

My hon. Friend has spoken of the necessity of our having for all purposes microscopes, binoculars, telescopes, and other instruments, but he seems to have forgotten that in all those instruments it is necessary to have lenses, and that lenses require a particular kind of glass, the manufacture of which can only, be carried out by scientific men, who have devoted themselves for many, many years to the processes connected with the manufacture of optical glass. A few years ago the Germans were able to make optical instruments with 100 different kinds of optical glass, and just before the War broke out we did not possess the means of supplying ten of these. It is quite true that, during the last few years, great efforts have been made by a most patriotic firm in Birmingham, Messrs. Chance, to supply the kind of glass required for the manufacture of these optical instruments, but I am credibly informed that, unless time is given to enable the manufacture of these different kinds of glass for the purposes of optical instruments, it will be quite impossible for them to carry on the trade, and the principal manufacturers in this country have stated that, unless for a time a certain amount of protection is given to them in carrying out these objects, they will be compelled to close down their works. Unless Messrs. Chance have some form of protection given to them for a few years, until sufficient men are trained to enable them to carry on the work, they will be compelled to close their works and to distribute all the apparatus which they have already collected for this purpose.

There is no single object mentioned in this Resolution which it is more necessary should receive some protection than the articles mentioned in paragraph ( a ). It is far more important than in the case of dyestuffs, because although you do require in the latter case the services of trained and considerably experienced people, you do not require very much more than the services of eminent scientific men, whereas in the manufacture of optical instruments, you not only require the services of highly-trained chemists, but also the services of highly-trained artisans to grind the glasses when they got the material. Therefore, there is absolutely no trade in which it is more necessary to give some protection than the trade connected with optical glass. My hon. Friend has spoken of the difficulty of obtaining these instruments, and says that they would cost a little more, but what are we to do if we cannot obtain them in this country? Are we to go on for ever without being able to obtain similar instruments in this country? It is because, unfortunately, they are better and more accurate, and are made of glass of far more reliable composition in Germany, that it is necessary in some way to give protection. You cannot get the same kind of instrument at the present moment in England that you can obtain at a similar price abroad. It is pointed out that we might get these things possibly from other countries. I think I am not wrong in saying that America gets a very large income from the optical instruments she manufactures. America is going to be a very severe competitor in future in the manufacture of these instruments. But the important thing this Committee has got to remember is that if we were not prepared during the next few years to manufacture these instruments at home, we should be unable to obtain the miscroscopes, which are so essential of course for all medical research, during any period of years in which we happened to be at war. Therefore, for self-protection in the field, in the Army, in the Navy, and particularly in the air, and also for the protection of our students in our medical hospitals, where they want to obtain medical research, it is absolutely essential that, during the next few years, we should have such protection as will make us independent of any foreign country.

I have listened with very great interest to the hon. Gentleman who has just resumed his seat, because he made an admission which is very valuable. He told us, first of all, that included in this particular category which we are discussing are lenses, and then he proceeded to tell us that foreign lenses are better and more accurate than those to be obtained in this country at the present time. I submit that, when we are considering a matter like this, we are entitled to consider what effect it is going to have on other industries, and what those industries are. I can only speak for an industry with which I am connected, an industry which, if it has not the best lenses the world can provide, must inevitably take a very backward position in the world, and that is the cinematograph industry. We depend on the best lenses we can get, and we scour the world for the best lenses to obtain our pictures. Then we have to project them on our screens with the best lenses we can get. Are we to allow Germany, America and all those other countries to produce better pictures, and to project them better and show them better, and are we to sit quiet and wait for these things to develop? I say you have no right to impose duties of this sort, which are going, first of all, to make these articles dearer, and they are very much dearer than they were before the War. You are going to increase the price of these lenses, which are already a tremendous price, and you are going to insist upon our having an inferior article. An industry with infinitely greater capital and of infinitely more value to the country is to take a backward position. Those two admissions made by the hon. Member caused me to rise to point out the damage you are doing to one industry, and the probability is you are doing similar damage to many other industries.

5.0 P.M.

The answer which has already been given to the Committee by my hon. Friend the Member for London University (Sir P. Magnus), than whom no one is more entitled to speak in this House as to our scientific requirements, is, I think, an adequate reply, and the Committee would indeed have a short memory if it were prepared, after weighing the arguments, which have been adduced against this proposal, and the urgent need there was in every branch of the service for optical glass and optical instruments during the War not to bring down the scales against the arguments advanced in support of this Amendment. What was our position before the War? Before the War we were producing only a few hundred Ibs. a month of optical glass. At the end of the War our requirements were something like 9 or 10 tons a month. Anybody who served in the War will remember what the position was. In the front line trenches optical glass was needed by practically every man. You could not carry on your trench warfare without periscopes, and therefore without optical glass. How many men were killed in the early days of the War because there was not the optical glass for periscopes in the front line? We could not get them from Germany or buy them in the cheapest market. We had to beg the manufacturers in this country to make the optical instruments required. There was not one of our guns that did not require optical glass. There was not an artillery observing officer who did not want a periscope. Go to the Air Force. The thing which perhaps saved more lives and made us more successful in the later part of the War was our predominance in the air, and the wonderful intelligence which our Air Force got from aerial photography. For that they depended on the very lenses which the hon. Member for West Leyton (Mr. Newbould) is now asking us to sacrifice for cinema protection. I think that is an important thing, but I venture to suggest that, when we have to weigh in the balance whether we are to have this duty of 33⅓ per cent. on certain products in time of peace to be ready for war, when we remember that the cinema industry is able to pay salaries up to £50,000 a year to a single actress to perform for it, I do not think it is unreasonable to expect it to pay a duty of 33⅓ per cent. in order that the Air Force of this country may have its eyes, and that we may not have to fight blind. At sea the matter was exactly the same. All the ships at sea required this optical glass and these optical instruments. We could not have had a single submarine at sea without it. It is not too much to say that in any war of the future, unless you have got optical glass you are going to fight blind, and if you do you are going to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of lives and make victory impossible. The hon. Gentleman opposite, who moved this Amendment, said we were making the doctor pay more for his microscope. When does the doctor want his microscope most? He said the test was the test of bacteriology. I agree, but when do we most need the researches of our doctors in bacteriology? It is when our men are coming in from the front suffering from different diseases. I daresay hon. Members will remember what happens. What value is it going to be to a doctor that he has been able to buy a microscope a little bit cheaper in the years of peace if he cannot have a microscope at all when we come to war? The test of war is the test for these key industries, and I submit that the case has been superlatively made out for optical glass and optical instruments. How is the optical glass to be obtained? It is a skilled trade. It is a trade in which the workmen require long training. The making of the optical glass itself is a difficult process, and the whole trade, from the making of the glass up to the finished instrument, is one that you must be able to carry right through. You dare not have a gap. If you have a gap you are done. The only way you are going to make this industry ready for war is to make sure that it has a chance to go on during peace, and protection must be given to the peace products in this industry in order that you may be ready for war.

The argument we have heard, from my hon. Friend (Sir P. L. Greame) seems to be based entirely upon the view that there is nothing to be done except to get ready for another war, and if we understand that the provisions of these Financial Resolutions are that we shall strain every nerve to be prepared in every detail for another war, then, of course, one understands the attitude of mind and the projection of mind of hon. Gentlemen opposite. But I understood that the policy of this country was to promote peace, and to avoid war and preparations for war. Obviously, if we are promoting peace, the more we promote peace, and the more likelihood there is of peace, the less the necessity for preparing for war; and we should all be glad if we and all other nations reach that stage. Hon. Gentlemen opposite say that for the purpose which they have in mind they must have, as is stated in the first line of this Resolution, a period of protection amounting to five years. The hon. and learned Member for London University (Sir P. Magnus) mentioned that a certain firm in Birmingham had made great efforts in this direction during the War. I believe that is quite true, but they had far more facilities then for the disposal of what they were making than they could possibly have under existing conditions. They were getting practically any price they liked. My hon. Friend shakes his head, but surely it is true that during the War the Government did not care what they spent on essential products. That was one of the reasons why we have got so enormous a National Debt. We gave any amount of money at that time for the production of those things. I wish to draw the attention of the President of the Board of Trade to this fact, to which I would like an answer. The period I refer to was the period of seven years—the seven fat kine—of war.

Well, that is not a very valuable interjection. It is simply an asseveration of another point of view.

I do not know whether the hon. Member was in the House last night when I said that I would defy anybody on these Benches to prove any case of big profits having been made out of any of these articles. I repeat that to the hon. Gentleman now. I absolutely deny that Messrs. Chance, or any other firm, made any large profit out of optical glass during the War.

Then I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon. But I thought "five fat years" meant it. It would mean it to ordinary people.

May I repeat what I said, in order to make myself clear? All I said was that for all purposes, including this particular purpose, every firm who made these things during the War got their own price. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Well, that is my view, from my observation of the accounts that were rendered from time to time in this House by those who were engaged on war services. All sorts of firms got extravagant prices.

I can tell the hon. Gentleman that my statement is not based upon the general accounts of firms, but on the accounts of these actual firms, which went through my hands in the Ministry of Munitions.

That may be so. I am not for a single moment putting up my opinion with regard to Messrs. Chance as against that of my hon. Friend. He has seen what I have not been able to see. But that does not at all controvert the general proposition which I make, that the conditions enjoyed by these firms doing war work for war purposes were conditions that they cannot hope to obtain in the competitive times of peace. They had seven years in which to establish their trade, under what amounted to a policy of protection. [An HON. MEMBER: "Absolutely."] An hon. Friend behind me emphasises that view by saying absolutely, but let me put it at this, that they had during that period an opportunity of producing these goods under con- ditions as favourable as could exist, when there was no question of how much it was going to cost, what were the wages to be paid to the men, or anything of the kind. The conditions of delivery and everything else were left to them, so long as they could produce the goods. If that trade could not be established in seven years, how does the Government hope that that purpose can be achieved in five years?

With a possible extension! Of course, that is the whole thing. Hon. Gentlemen opposite are not honest in their statements with regard to this. What they mean is that they want this as a permanent national policy. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]

The hon. and learned Member made his own speech in his own way with what ability he was able to. I may not have as much ability, but I am trying to make my own point in my own way with what ability I have got left after listening to him. I am pointing out that what we are here asked to do is to give carte blanche for five years to a certain number of scientific firms, which have had the best conditions for seven years, and which (they tell us from the opposite side) are not in a position to compete with competitors abroad. I take an entirely opposite point of view on these matters. I do not want the trade of the world to be put into departments inside the confines of—

I think the hon. Member's remarks are more relevant to the general discussion than to the discussion of optical glass and instruments.

With due respect, Mr. Hope, I think that is the first sentence that has been general. Up to that moment we were dealing more with the firm of Chance and its defenders than with any other point, but I will not pursue that. The point has been made from this side that there are other uses for this great scientific industry than the use of war, and we would prefer to have the industries of peace equipped with cheap and efficient optical instruments rather than reserve ourselves for a war which, as a nation, we are striving our best to prevent from occurring again. That is our policy. We would rather buy cheaper and more efficient optical instruments from another country, and bargain with that country with things we believe we are able to make better than they, than we would spend the money of this country in supporting and protecting specific industries. Our position is quite clear. If precautions are to be taken—and we are all agreed that certain precautions must be taken for war purposes—we are prepared that the State should subsidise the preparations for meeting an emergency of that kind, but we are not prepared to do it at the expense of the production and distribution of useful scientific instruments for the purposes of education throughout our own country and throughout the world, for the investigation of science, for medicine, and so on. We are not prepared to sacrifice that in order that a few firms should be put into a favoured position to prepare for a war which every one of us hopes will never occur again.

I am somewhat surprised to hear the line of reasoning of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade. He seemed to argue that it was necessary that the articles which we are seeking to have eliminated from this list should be produced. I do not know that anyone is going to contest that point. Undoubtedly there is the need in the country for a great many of these articles. Then he went on to argue that as there is a great need for the articles we must have them and that the only way to get them—and it is here I join issue with him—is by protecting the industry. That conclusion is most fallacious, because there are other ways in which we can get them. My hon. Friend (Dr. Murray) has been arguing very strongly for the exemption of optical glass at least in the interests of poor people and school children. It is well known that ophthalmia is far more prevalent among the poor than among the rich and that you find children predisposed—perhaps by neglect in their early lives and for want of glasses—to astigmatism and several forms of eye trouble which impair to a very large ex- tent their earning capacity in after-life. I am informed that in my own particular industry there is a large predisposition to eye trouble through the neglect of the eyesight of children. If this is due to want of suitable glasses we ought to pause before imposing any tax whatever upon these essential articles. After all, eyesight is almost as important as industry, and we should do nothing to prevent the working classes obtaining these articles at as cheap a rate as possible. I think there are other ways in which we can achieve these purposes, and so far as I am concerned I should like a searching inquiry into all these industries before we commit ourselves to Resolutions of this kind. It is not, I think, sufficient for hon. Members merely to state that a certain industry needs protection.

To me there are irreconcilable differences in the pronouncements and the views which have been put forward in relation to this question. What is, after all, the greatest industry in the country? Has it not been said that if that industry cannot be run without a subsidy it had better be wiped out altogether? [HON. MEMBERS: "No one said that!"] Yes, it has been said. At least, it has been said that collieries that cannot pay their way had better be closed up, irrespective of whether those collieries might be required in war time or not. I am only using this illustration to show that we can speak with two voices upon a great many aspects of this question. So far as the articles under discussion are concerned, I think it is essential we should have some of them, but I do not know what we are going to achieve in this particular way. I think I am justified in asking one question in relation to this impost. If you are going to levy a tax of 33⅓ per cent. for the purpose of protecting an industry, will you, when you produce your Bill, say whether you are going to give statutory protection to labour in that industry or is protection only to be given to those running the industry?

The Amendment before the Committee is as to whether optical glass and other articles shall be included in the tax which, so far as this Resolution is concerned, it is assumed is to be levied on certain descriptions of articles. Hon. Members are not in order to raise the general question.

I was only asking if the particular industries making these articles required protection, are we going to protect only the manufacturers or are we going to give statutory protection to labour?

We have got past the point at which such an argument could be raised. We have passed the point in the Resolution which states that a Customs duty or an amount equal to 33⅓ per cent. of the value of the article should be imposed. The question before the Committee now is whether optical glass and similar articles should come under that Resolution or not.

I assume, although the hon. Member may not be in Order in raising the question of the standard rate of wages on this Amendment, such an Amendment would be in order at its proper place later on.

I wish to meet the point raised by the hon. Member who spoke last when he says that before we introduce any particular article into the scope of this Resolution we should make inquiry into that particular industry. In my own constituency there happens to be a firm of microscope manufacturers. They were the chief British manufacturers before the War, and, I imagine, still retain that position. I have gone to considerable pains to inquire into the matter, and I find the fact is that before the War German glass had become absolutely essential. A particular firm by various improvements in optical instruments had got into such a position that their glass for certain kinds of work was essential throughout the world and they practically held up the whole industry. I have a copy of a bill sent to the British manufacturers for prisms and lenses in which it is laid down as one of the conditions that the method of disposal shall be restricted in a particular way so as to preserve that firm's rights. That firm was maintained and is being maintained by a Government subsidy. If such were not the case, there might be a great deal in the arguments of the hon. Members who have spoken against these Resolutions, but, as a matter of fact, the German Government give this subsidy, and while it is continued, no one who has the interests of Free Trade at heart can possibly desire to maintain this unfair balance against our optical trade. My hon. Friend who introduced this Amendment seemed in favour of reverting to the pre-War conditions in which we were dependent entirely on the foreigner for superior microscopes.

If I may say so, I certainly was not in favour of being dependent on Germany as we were before the War. But there are other ways besides a protective tariff.

I think the effect of his remarks was absolutely and entirely in the direction of reverting to the conditions under which we were dependent on the Germans before the War. One firm is prepared to spend £30,000—to throw it away—to recapture the British trade. Being under protective conditions—owing to the circumstances of the War—there was a remarkable development in this very special line of work during the War, but it is very difficult to maintain the position in a trade requiring so many skilled operatives and a trade that was never taken up properly in this country hitherto. I think the only way in which the industry can be made to feel safe and in which certainty can be given to the large numbers of operatives whom we wish to see engaged in it, is by a system of total prohibition plus licensing. The criticism has been raised that the Resolutions before the Committee involve absolute protection and prohibition. They do not. The proposal is a very moderate one and is limited both in extent and time. British firms will still have to submit to an enormous disparity owing to the exchanges, and I say it is essential that we should give at least this amount of help, that we should maintain this industry, not with a view to the profits of the owners, but with a view to the future of the trade and of the skilled operatives who are engaged in it. I shall make a last point, which is a professional point, against my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment. It is all very well to say that we can go back to the German and foreign producer—because, whatever he says, that is what he means, but the actual facts of the case are that, unless this trade can be given good security of employment, it will have to be broken up, owing to the fact that we will not be able to train and employ skilled operatives. That being so, the trade will at once be seized upon, and we shall get back to foreign production and foreign supply. From the purely scientific point of view, that will be extremely bad for research of all kinds. In peace times—let alone under war conditions—it is a bad thing that the workers In one country should have to be dependent upon instruments manufactured in another country and under different conditions which they cannot influence. We want the research worker and the skilled operative to work hand in hand, so that they can bring all the resources, both of the laboratory and the workshop, to bear upon the problems on which they are engaged, and from the highest scientific point of view, as well as in relation to the purposes of war, I very strongly urge that we should include optical glass among the articles which are to receive the form of assistance proposed.

The hon. Member for London University (Sir P. Magnus) suggested, I understand, that the scientific community was not affected, and would not be harmed, by the Bill which is to be based on these Resolutions. In that case it would be interesting to the House to hear part of a letter which was addressed by the British Cotton Industry Research Association to the Government Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. The letter states: particular industry, after investigation. We are not going to give that assistance, however, at the expense of another industry. That is the objection we have. You are going to help one industry at the expense of others, and these other industries may be more important than the one you are going to help. In this case it is not so much another industry but the whole cause of scientific research which is going to suffer by this particular method of helping the optical glass industry. The hon. and gallant Gentleman, who replied for the Government, made a great deal about the scarcity of optical instruments and optical glass at the beginning of the War, and he instanced, particularly, the experience of soldiers at that time. I was in France in the very early days of the War, in 1914, and I can assure him that there were many things that we lacked at that time more than optical glass or scientific instruments, and if any soldier that ever I came into contact with in 1914 in France had been asked what he wanted most, he would have said duck-boards to prevent him sinking in the mud.

It is not suggested that because these things were scarce in the early days, therefore the industry that produces them is a key industry. Many things were scarce at that time. Supposing we did pass these Resolutions and a Bill founded upon them and that we did help the optical glass industry, would that be any guarantee that we would have all these instruments when war broke out? In those early days it was not so much the lack of quality as the lack of quantity, and if to-morrow we had another war and we had our optical instrument industry in the very height of efficiency, we would still suffer in exactly the same way as before, and we are bound to suffer if suddenly the demand for scientific instruments or field glasses is magnified to several times its previous amount. What we lacked at that time was simply the supply, and this Bill will not increase the supply in any way unless there is something else to go along with. I should like the right hon. Gentleman when he replies to give us some information also about the individual instruments mentioned in this Sub-section. It speaks about optical glass and optical elements; what exactly is an optical element? Will he give us some information as to why he puts opera glasses into this particular list? This point was made by the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Dr. Murray), but the hon. and gallant Gentleman, who replied very discreetly, ignored that point. Is it really suggested that the safety of this Empire depends and rests upon a supply of opera glasses?

I am sure my hon. and gallant Friend does not wish to misrepresent me, but if he heard my statement I think I made it perfectly clear. I showed what were the things that were essential in time of war and that we could not have the industry to produce them in time of war unless we could assure that their peace products would be produced in time of peace.

That is to say, that in order to guarantee the supply of certain articles, you are prepared to injure all the other people who use a large number of other instruments of a somewhat similar nature. That reinforces my argument, that you are trying to help one particular industry at the expense of another, and if you have to help a particular industry, we on this side suggest that you ought to do it at the general expense of the taxpayer, and not at the expense of other industries. The last point I would like to make is with regard to the question of general nautical instruments. Does the right hon. Gentleman think that any protection of this kind intended for nautical instruments does really have that effect? A sailor is continually going about from country to country, and if you put a duty on nautical instruments in this country the result will simply be that he will buy all his nautical instruments in Germany or in other foreign countries, and you will deal a very heavy blow against the British people who sell these particular instruments. I am certain that on this particular article the Bill which is to be introduced cannot touch the question at all, and will simply divert the trade into other channels. I suppose it is too much to hope that we could have any of these struck out from the list, but I hope that when the right hon. Gentleman comes to draft the Bill all these criticisms which we are endeavouring to put before him will be seriously considered, and an attempt made to exclude some of these articles, which I suggest could well be excluded without harming the Bill.

The interruption made by the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department just now is one of a very illuminating character and throws a whole flood of light on this discussion. As far as I understand him, opera glasses are included in this Resolution, not because they are essential in time of war, but because they are part of an industry which is making something else which is essential, and you cannot get the thing which is essential made unless you protect the thing which is non-essential, because the two things together help to make up its business, and if the business is to be carried on you must protect its peace products as well as its essentially war products. That is most interesting, and I think it opens out an entirely new possibility in the direction of Protection, because, according to that theory, all that any industry which wants protecting needs to do is to tack on to itself something which is essential to war and then to come along and say to the Government, "We cannot do this unless you protect everything else we are doing." That helps me to understand a little more clearly a reply that the hon. and gallant Gentleman gave to me when I asked how much capital was invested in these key industries, and he said he could not say because these key industries are in many cases made by companies whose main capital is employed in making other things. That helps us to understand the position into which we are drifting.

The hon. and gallant Member for St. Albans (Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle) made a very useful and helpful contribution to the Debate. The object that we have in this discussion is really to get good grounds for making the very important changes that we are making in our fiscal policy. He said he had been at the trouble of going to some makers of microscopes in his constituency and going into the whole question of this matter of optical glass with them. That was a very practical way of approaching the problem. He was told that this German optical glass was essential to the makers of these instruments. Last night we were told that as far as scientific instruments are concerned, the export from this country is greater than the import into this country, and now we are told by the hon. and gallant Member that to those scientific instruments German optical glass is essential. That can only mean that the whole of the export trade in scientific instruments from this country is going to be very materially affected by the provisions that we are now discussing. To give protection to one maker in this country, the right hon. Gentleman is going to do something which is going to be to the detriment of the whole of our export of scientific instruments, because the Government themselves have very clearly laid down in other matters that the only way we can carry on our export trade is by reducing the cost of production. That is what they are always telling the miners, but here they are going to add to the cost of production of the whole of the manufacturers of scientific instruments in this country, and therefore affect a trade which on its export side is greater than on its import side.

Let us look at this list. You have got microscopes, which are almost purely for scientific use; field and opera glasses; theodolites, where you touch your engineer and surveyor; sextants, where you are dealing with navigation; spectroscopes, and other optical instruments. The glass that is in these instruments is not the beginning and the end of them. A really good instrument is made up not only of the lens, which is important, I admit, but of very fine and skilful engineering work.

You are protecting one element of a scientific instrument, the lens, an extremely important part, but you are doing that to the disadvantage of makers of the whole of the rest of that instrument, and therefore you are prejudicing them in their sales and in their trade. What do the Government set out to do? They set out to protect the manufacturer of optical glass in this country, and that means practically, as we know, to protect one firm. At the recent exhibition I saw some of the manufactures of that firm, and I am bound to say that it gave me much pleasure to see what they were doing, and after I had left their stand I felt that it was a great thing that there should be people in this country able to turn out such work. I for one, if it was clearly shown to me that these people, under the most efficient conditions, were really carrying on an industry which is absolutely vital to this country, would be willing to consider some means of supporting and maintaining them, but the Government are proposing to protect optical instruments in this country by a method which is not the method that the Germans adopted to build up their great trade, and is not the method which is asked for by the very people whom they are out to protect. Here is a little pamphlet, which I daresay most Members have had, called "An Industry re-won," reprinted from the "Daily Telegraph," and very obviously written almost entirely in the interests of this English firm of Chance Brothers. They give a very interesting little historical account of the growth of the optical instrument trade in Germany, and they show how it might have grown in this country if, as they say, encouragement had been given to the scientists. It says:

"England gave its scientists no encouragement."

That is the first step. That is the first explanation as to why we have lost opportunities for trading. That is why we lost the dye trade. What did the Germans do? What is said here? They (Schott and Abbe)—

"commenced a prolonged series of investigations, which were carried on at the expense of the Prussian State, and in five years they were able to establish as a commercial undertaking the great optical glass department of the Zeiss works at Jena."

The German Government did the very thing we refuse to do. They gave large grants for scientific research. If the Government would approach us and say to us, "There are certain industries in this country which are vital to the security of the country and which lag behind because at the present time they need the support of scientific research," then we are prepared to assist them in this way. That would meet with no opposition at all from this side of the House. What did the German Government do? What was their idea? They desired to capture trade, world trade. That is what we, as well as the Germans, want to do. That is the aim and ambition of every manufacturer—to get all the world trade he can—and if he can. To achieve this, the first thing the German Government did, the first means to this end, was that they gave State subsidies to this German firm. That was the German Government's method, not to put on a tariff.

The hon. Member opposite may know a great deal more about this matter than is set down in this pamphlet. I confess I am basing my information upon it. The "Daily Telegraph" is a responsible organ, and the matter in this reprint certainly seems to be inspired, and there is nothing said here about a tariff. Here the steps by which these industries are built up are two. First of all scientific research; afterwards subsidies. Here, again, it has been indicated from this side of the House that if the Government first of all make out a case for a vital or key industry, say it cannot be carried on on a commercial basis, and it is necessary to subsidise it, then a proposal of that sort would receive favourable consideration from us. We are already doing it. Here is a point. The Government come forward and they say: "Here is something which is vital, something which has grown up to a tremendous extent in another country; we propose to employ certain methods." When we look into the matter we find these are not the methods by which the industry grew up in the country, and, what is more, are not the methods desired by the people whom they propose to protect. Consider what is put forward. The firms say: "This is what we want, these are our aims "—not set out by one firm alone, but set out by the British Optical Instrument Manufacturers' Association. One hon. Member inquired the name of some association quoted on this side, and he rather joked at it because it was a trade association. Here you have the very people to whom we are to give protection putting forward their aims. Their aims are

"That no optical glass or scientific instruments should be imported into this country for a period of, say, seven years except under licence."

They want prohibition, except under licence! This twopenny tariff is no good to them. Thirty-three and a third per cent. is no good at all. They want 300 per cent. to 500 per cent. What they would like to see best of all is prohibition. What we are asked to do is to accept the Resolution which it is admitted will make all these instruments dearer. The Parliamentary Secretary admitted that, but he said, "What does it matter if a doctor during times of peace has to pay more for his instruments? As soon as a great war comes along we will have them." Some of us, however, are hoping that the years of peace will be much longer than the years of war. The people in this House who are pressing for this are the people who profess to be able to foresee the next European war. If they have that capacity for foreseeing events, let us lay up an adequate stock of these things, and that will make the matter right. Do not let us hamper and fetter the whole of our peace production by a tariff of this kind. It is admitted that what we are asked to do is going to injure and hamper our peace use of these instruments. We are asked to adopt an entirely novel and not hitherto used means to affect our object. It is suggested that all will work out well by putting on this wonderful 33½ per cent. tariff, which appears to be effective for any purpose in the Government's eyes, a kind of cure-all which you take and get rid of unemployment, collapsed exchanges and the other evils with which we are afflicted at the present. We are asked to adopt this when there is the fullest evidence, not coming from this side of the House, but in this publication I am quoting, from people who favour protection, that it is not what they want, it is not the method which has been found effective. I submit there is no case for this Resolution, and that if we are going to protect this industry, we should take the courses which have been tried, and which meet with general approval.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 251; Noes, 65.

Division No. 100.]

AYES.

[5.53 P.m.

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Barnston, Major Harry

Armitage, Robert

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City of Lon.)

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Astor, Viscountess

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Atkey, A. R.

Banner, Sir John S. Harmood-

Betterton, Henry B.

Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

Barlow, Sir Montague

Bigland, Alfred

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L,

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)

Pearce, Sir William

Brassey, H. L. C.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Briggs, Harold

Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

Brittain, Sir Harry

Hills, Major John Waller

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Hinds, John

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Bruton, Sir James

Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

Perkins, Walter Frank

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Perring, William George

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Hood, Joseph

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Butcher, Sir John George

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Carew, Charles Robert S.

Hopkins, John W. W.

Prescott, Major W. H.

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Casey, T. W.

Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

Randies, Sir John Scurrah

Cautley, Henry Strother

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Raper, A. Baldwin

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Birm.,W.)

Hunter, General Sir A (Lancaster)

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

Hurd, Percy A.

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill

Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

Remer, J. R.

Churchman, Sir Arthur

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Renwick, George

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Jellett, William Morgan

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Clough, Robert

Jephcott, A. R.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Jesson, C.

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)

Rodger, A. K.

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Colfax, Major Wm. Phillips

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Norwood)

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Kidd, James

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

Cope, Major William

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Knight, Major E. A. (Kidderminster)

Seager, Sir William

Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Seddon, J. A.

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Larmor, Sir Joseph

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)

Simm, M. T.

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Smithers, Sir Alfred W.

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Davies, Sir David Sanders (Denbigh)

Lindsay, William Arthur

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Lloyd, George Butler

Steel, Major S. Strang

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Stevens, Marshall

Dean, Commander P. T.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Stewart, Gershom

Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

Lonsdale, James Rolston

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Dockrell, Sir Maurice

Lorden, John William

Sturrock, J. Leng

Doyle, N. Grattan

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Sutherland, Sir William

Edgar, Clifford B.

Lowther, Col. Claude (Lancaster)

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.

Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)

Thomas-Stanford, Charles

Falcon, Captain Michael

M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill)

Fell, Sir Arthur

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Townley, Maximilian G.

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Townshend, Sir Charles V. F.

FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.

Macquisten, F. A.

Tryon, Major George Clement

Flannery, sir James Fortescue

Magnus, Sir Philip

Waddington, R.

Forestier-Walker, L.

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Manville, Edward

Walton, J. (York, W. R. Don Valley)

Frece, Sir Walter de

Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Martin, A. E.

Watson, Captain John Bertrand

Ganzoni, Sir John

Matthews, David

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Gardner, Ernest

Meysey-Thompson, Lieut.-Col. E. C.

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge)

Middlebrook, Sir William

Whitla, Sir William

Gee, Captain Robert

Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B.

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

Mitchell, William Lane

Williams, C. (Tavistock)

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Molson, Major John Elsdale

Williams, Colonel Sir R. (Dorset, W.)

Gilbert, James Daniel

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Morrison. Hugh

Wilson-Fox, Henry

Greene Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Munro. Rt. Hon. Robert

Winterton, Earl

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Murchison, C. K.

Wise, Frederick

Gregory, Holman

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill-(High Peak)

Gretton, Colonel John

Nail, Major Joseph

Woolcock, William James U.

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Neal, Arthur

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth)

Hailwood, Augustine

Newton, Major Harry Kottingham

Younger, Sir George

Hall, Captain Sir Douglas Bernard

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Hamilton, Major C. S. C.

Nield, Sir Herbert

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Cape, Thomas

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Spencer, George A.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Spoor, B. G.

Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

Lawson, John James

Swan, J. E.

Galbraith, Samuel

Lunn, William

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Gillis, William

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Glanville, Harold James

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Myers, Thomas

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Grundy, T. W.

O'Connor, Thomas P.

Wilson, James (Dudley)

Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Hallas, Eldred

Rendall, Atheistan

Wintringham, Thomas

Hartshorn, Vernon

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Hirst, G. H.

Robertson, John

Irving, Dan

Rose, Frank H.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Royce, William Stapleton.

Dr. Murray and Mr. Kiley.

Johnstone, Joseph

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 247; Noes, 69.

Division No. 101.]

AYES.

[6.0 p.m.

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Hurd, Percy A.

Armitage, Robert

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Astor, Viscountess

Dean, Commander P. T.

Jeilett, William Morgan

Atkey, A. R.

Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

Jephcott, A. R.

Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

Dockrell, Sir Maurice

Jesson, C.

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Doyle, N. Grattan

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City of Lon.)

Edgar, Clifford B.

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick)

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Kidd, James

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Falcon, Captain Michael

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Banner, Sir John S. Harmood-

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Knight, Major E. A. (Kidderminster),

Barlow, Sir Montague

Fell, Sir Arthur

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Larmor, Sir Joseph

Barnston, Major Harry

FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.

Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Bonn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Forestier-Walker, L.

Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Lindsay, William Arthur

Betterton, Henry B.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Lloyd, George Butler

Bigland, Alfred

Ganzoni, Sir John

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Gardner, Ernest

Locker-Lamp son, G. (Wood Green)

Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

Gee, Captain Robert

Lonsdale, James Rolston

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

Lorden, John William

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Gilbert, James Daniel

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Brassey, H. L. C.

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

Lowther, Col. Claude (Lancaster)

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.

Briggs, Harold

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)

Brittain, Sir Harry

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Gregory, Holman

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Bruton, Sir James

Gretton, Colonel John

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury),

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

Macquisten, F. A.

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Magnus, Sir Philip

Butcher, Sir John George

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.),

Carew, Charles Robert S.

Hailwood, Augustine

Manville, Edward

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

Casey, T. W.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Martin, A. E.

Cautley, Henry Strother

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Matthews, David

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Meysey-Thompson, Lieut.-Col. E. C.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm.,W.)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Middlebrook, Sir William

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B.

Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill

Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)

Mitchell, William Lane

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Molson, Major John Eisdale

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Clough, Robert

Hills, Major John Waller

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

Morrison, Hugh

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Murchison, C. K.

Colfox, Major Win. Phillips

Hood, Joseph

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Nail, Major Joseph

Cope, Major William

Hopkins, John W. W.

Neal, Arthur

Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

Home, Edgar (Surrey. Gulldford)

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Craig, Capt. C. C (Antrim, South)

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Newton, Major Harry Kottingham

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Nield, Sir Herbert

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Tryon, Major George Clement

Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Waddington, R.

Morris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

Rodger, A. K.

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley)

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Norwood)

Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

Watson, Captain John Bertrand

Pearce, Sir William

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Seager, Sir William

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

Seddon, J. A.

Whitla, Sir William

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Simm, M. T.

Williams, C. (Tavistock)

Perkins, Walter Frank

Smithers, Sir Alfred W.

Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.)

Perring, William George

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir M. (Bethnal Gn.)

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Steel, Major S. Strang

Wilson-Fox, Henry

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Stevens, Marshall

Winterton, Earl

Prescott, Major W. H.

Stewart, Ger shorn

Wise, Frederick

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Sturrock, J. Leng

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Rankin, Captain James Stuart

Sutherland, Sir William

Woolcock, William James U.

Raper, A. Baldwin

Terrell, George, (Wilts, Chippenham)

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

Thomas-Stanford, Charles

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Younger, Sir George

Roes, Capt. J. Tudor-(Barnstaple)

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill)

Remer, J. R.

Townley, Maximilian G

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Renwick, George

Townshend, Sir Charles V. F.

Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Grundy, T. W.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Ainsworth, Captain Charles

Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)

Robertson, John

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Hartshorn, Vernon

Rose, Frank H.

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Hinds, John

Royce, William Stapleton

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hirst, G. H.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Smith, W. R. (Weillngborough)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Irving, Dan

Spencer, George A.

Cape, Thomas

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Spoor, B. G.

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Johnstone, Joseph

Swan, J. E.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Davies, Sir David Sanders (Denbigh)

Lawson, John James

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Lunn, William

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

France, Gerald Ashburner

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Wilson, James (Dudley)

Galbraith, Samuel

Myers, Thomas

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Gillis, William

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

Wintringham, Thomas

Glanville, Harold James

O'Connor, Thomas P.

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Rendall, Atheistan

Dr. Murray and Mr. Kiley.

On a point of Order. I wish to state that on a previous Amendment I rose several times to speak, and I was not called on. I desire to know if there is any method by which hon. Members can complain of that procedure?

The only method I know of is that which has just been adopted by the hon. Member, and it is quite out of order.

The last words of paragraph ( a ) are "and other optical instruments." I want to give the Government an opportunity of stating whether this duty is going to be imposed upon spectacles.

I beg to move, to leave out paragraph ( b ).

A question was raised as to the amount of this tax upon these very necessary articles, many of which are used for educational purposes, and we were told that 33⅓ per cent. would be imposed as a key industry, 33⅓ per cent. under depreciated exchange, and if the articles came from Germany there would be 50 per cent. or 100 per cent. in addition added. That represented 166⅔ per cent., without the additional charges which would accumulate upon those figures. Therefore you might have anything from 1 per cent. to 200 per cent. added to the cost of these commodities. These articles are very varied, and many of them are essential, and why we should proceed to tax ourselves to this very heavy extent I do not understand, and I think it is very unwise. There may be one or two of these articles in regard to which it could be alleged that they might be essential for war purposes, but if you look through the list they are very badly defined and very varied. One is "Lamp-blown ware." I think that phrase would cover a multitude of articles. It covers a common lamp shade on a paraffin lamp. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] If that is not intended, I should be very glad if the Secretary of the Department of Overseas Trade would make it clear. We wanted further information on the last paragraph, but failed to get it. If the hon. Gentleman can give us some information now it will be very useful.

There are also one or two other interesting items in this list. Firstly, there is a beaker. Why is it necessary for war purposes to put a beaker in this list? A beaker is practically a glass jug without a handle, and that is said to be essential for winning a war. One would imagine that these articles had not been made in this country, that we had no glass factories here. In the Stourbridge district we have great glass works that have been established there for centuries, and we have all heard of the great firm of Chance. Moreover, even the Germans themselves came over here, as a result of the legislation passed by the Prime Minister when he was President of the Board of Trade, and put up a big factory for making these lenses. During the War that was taken over by a British firm, but we did have glass factories in this country, and there are plenty of ways in which we could obtain what we want by a different method from the one which is now proposed. I have here the report of a committee of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, who are spending any amount of money, quite rightly and properly, for purposes of scientific and industrial research. I have another report of the Development Commission, where also we are spending large sums of money. We know that the Government are spending a great deal of money on growing sugar-beet, and are investing money in dyes. If you want to assist these different factories to produce commodities which are essential for war purposes, that is your method. It can be done without putting a tax upon everyone by increasing the price of every article that they require.

I have much pleasure in supporting this Amendment for very much the same reasons which led me to move the deletion of the former paragraph. Undoubtedly the main fact running through these Regulations is that they are to be a drag upon scientific progress in this country for many years to come, although I acknowledge that one of the things at the back of the mind of the Government is the encouragement of scientific progress, and that they do not intend to be a drag upon it. My belief, however—and it is based upon many speeches of the Prime Minister years ago on the influence of taxes on commodities in this country—is that the effect will be that, instead of scientific progress being promoted in this country, the greatest possible harm will be done to it. I am surprised that any Minister of Education with Liberal ideas could remain in the Government and see this attack made upon education. Paragraphs ( a ) and ( b ) will do more to retard education than all the squandermania paragraphs in the jazz band outside. The attacks made upon education in other departments of our political life at the, present time are serious enough; but I should have expected the watch-dog of educational progress in this Government to look after its interests in a matter of this character. But one has to come to the conclusion that, no matter what convictions a man has before he enters this Government, he has no convictions once he has entered its portals.

Reference is made in this paragraph to glass burettes, measuring cylinders and thermometers. Now, every time a doctor takes the temperature of a patient, somebody is to be taxed. While I regard the man who takes his temperature every day as being as foolish as the man who feels his own pulse every day and always finds something wrong there, yet, used wisely, a thermometer is quite a useful article, especially in remote parts of the country where doctors and nurses are scarce and far away. Now, every man who buys a thermometer is going to be taxed upon it, in order to provide for the war which the Prime Minister told us was, as far as he could foresee, never to occur, because the last War was a war to end all wars. Yet, in order to be prepared for that war, which I hope will never come, people who buy thermometers are to pay more for them than they did before. I have only referred to one direction in which thermometers are used. Thermometers are used for other purposes. They are used, for instance, to tell us what is the temperature of the House of Commons—I mean, of course, in a physical sense. Then, evaporating dishes are included. I do not want to give an advertisement to foreign glassware, but it is a well known fact that evaporating dishes of a perfect character have been more difficult to produce in this country than, perhaps, any other type of scientific ware. They have been found to be defective, and I would say again, as I said on the previous paragraph, that if we are to encourage scientific and educational progress in this country, the field from which our scientists can select their instruments should not be curtailed in the slightest degree. The world should be open to them without restriction as before the War. If before the War there had been any tariff of this sort upon scientific instruments of this kind, this country would never have made the tremendous progress that it has made in various departments of science during the last 50 years.

Then there is laboratory porcelain. That is a thing which cannot be made so well in this country as it can in other countries. There are some things which we can make better than any other country, but we must admit that we are not perfect in everything, and I am not at all sure that we can attain to perfection in certain of these things. I have tasted Scotch haggis in England. It was made in England, perhaps from a recipe taken out of a Scotch cookery book, but it was not the same thing at all as that which is made in Scotland. Somehow or other, there are conditions peculiar to the places where these things are made which enable them to make certain things better than they can be made in any other part of the world, and that is true of our own country and of certain other countries on the Continent. No department of our social, political and economic life requires more perfect instruments than scientific research, and we ought to do everything that we can to put the most perfect instruments into the hands of our scientists. The Government, by these Regulations, are making it more difficult than ever for our scientists to compete, for instance, with the scientists of Germany. There has been too little encouragement of scientific progress in this country, and I am surprised that a Government of which the Prime Minister is at the head should be putting this spoke in its wheels.

The hon. Member appears to be repeating, on paragraph ( b ), the precise arguments that he used on paragraph ( a ). It is not in order for him to use the same arguments in connection with each article or each description of article.

I admit that I was wrong there, but my excuse is that there are a number of hon. Members here at present who were not here before. Having given that summary of the views which I expressed upon paragraph ( a ), I will not make any other references that may be contrary to your ruling. It is worth repeating, however, even though it may be out of order, that anything that interferes either with the interests of education or with scientific research is a step backward; and I believe sincerely that legislation of this kind, which puts a tax upon instruments of scientific research, is bound to have a retarding effect upon scientific progress in this country, and, therefore, upon the country's best interests.

I do not propose to quarrel with the hon. Member (Dr. Murray) on account of the character of his remarks, but I should not like it to be supposed that the highly imaginative and rather humorous description which he and the Mover of the Amendment have given of the articles included in this provision was in the least correct. It is not the case that every beaker, or jug without a handle, is going to come within the scope of this provision. What is going to come within its scope is scientific glassware, lamp-blown ware, and laboratory porcelain. Anyone who is acquainted with these industries knows that they are isolated industries, small industries, of a very particular and very highly skilled kind. They employ the most highly skilled workmen, who require very long training and very high qualities. You cannot draw your workmen from any analogous trade, and there are special qualities in this glass which distinguish it entirely from other forms of glass. You have to have the glass of absolutely uniform texture. You have to have it so made that it will stand almost any variation of temperature, and the hon. Member is quite mistaken in his sug- gestion as to the nature of lamp-blown ware. It is scientific glassware in the manufacture of which a blow lamp is used. There are three stages of work in this glassware. There is, first, the tubing, next you get your work done by the blowpipe, and then you get calibration, which is skilled work going to a very small fraction of an inch. Therefore, it is a trade of a highly-skilled character. Exactly the same applies to laboratory porcelain. It has to be absolutely free from lead, and it has to be absolutely non-porous, so that the special character of the industry is clearly indicated. The need of the industry in war is extreme in both these cases. I reminded the Committee yesterday that very early on in the War the armament manufacturers found that without the scientific glass which had previously been imported from Germany for these beakers and other glass articles which are required, it was Absolutely impossible to carry on the manufacture of munitions. Without such a thing as a nitrometer it was perfectly impossible to carry on the manufacture of explosives, and unless you have this scientific glass industry and have your laboratory porcelain it becomes absolutely impossible to carry on the manufacture of munitions of any sort or kind. I will not follow the hon. and gallant Gentleman into his general statements about war and the end of war, but the wisest way of avoiding any war for the future is to see that in these vital industries we are independent of foreign supplies. I am perfectly willing to leave that to the judgment of the House as against the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy). Nor is it possible to rely entirely on the advice given in the admirable manuals of research which are intended to assist the manufacturers.

Increase them by all means. But when you find that your industry is only able in its infancy to produce at a price which cannot compete with foreign goods, it is no good feeding it with the most able manuals. What you have to do is to protect it through its infancy and enable it to make use of the admirable technical advice which is given. We have heard a good deal in the course of these Debates of the danger of trusts, and references have been made to the investigation of the Committee on Trusts, and the suggestion has been advanced that if we put on these duties in order to protect the manufactures in this country we are bound to add to the price. As a matter of fact, this very question of scientific glassware has been investigated by one of the sub-committees of the Standing Committee on Trusts which went into the glass industry in general, and the finding of that Committee is so interesting on the question of price that I should like to read one passage. "The nature of the competition they have to meet may be gathered from the fact that, favoured by exchange rates and other conditions, articles of glass work of the kind now being made in this country are being supplied by Continental manufacturers at prices less than the actual cost of manufacture here, whereas for other goods which are not yet being manufactured here prices are being charged by the Continental makers which mean to the consumer approximately five times the pre-War price of such goods." That shows that as long as the foreigner who can produce cheaply is trying to kill your nascent industry in this country, he will send it in at these cheap prices. But once he has succeeded in killing it, or if you do not make a start, immediately the price is raised against you. That is not a simple ex parte statement by a manufacturer, but it is the considered finding of this Committee on Trusts. The articles included in this second branch of the Resolution are absolutely vital in war and are essential for practically all peace productions.

The hon. Gentleman did not really give us a clear definition of what is meant by lamp-blown ware. Perhaps he will let us know exactly what it means.

I should like to ask a question or two without going into the general principle of these things again. The items that precede thermometers and tubing are all obviously glass. A beaker is a glass and measuring cylinders are presumably glass, but most scientific thermometers for high temperatures have no glass in their composition at all. Tubing, unless it is specifically described as glass tubing, might mean anything. If it is not further elucidated it will mean all kinds of thermometers and all kinds of tubing. You do not say "tubing." You say "tubing, and other scientific glassware," with a comma between them. As it stands it seems to me to exclude or subject to duty all kinds of thermometers and all kinds of tubing. You begin with things which are known to be always of glass and then come two things, thermometers and tubing, tubing being a very general term and thermometers a more inclusive term. Ought not that limitation, that they are meant to be glass thermometers and glass tubing, to be inserted if we are to have any sort of pretence of saying what we mean?

I hope some other representative of the Board of Trade will tell us the true definition of these words "lamp-blown ware." Presumably what is meant is glassware which is blown by heating in some form of lamp and not what is known as an ordinary blast furnace. But it should be understood that it is quite possible, with a view to evading the duty, to manufacture many glass objects by lamp blow which are at present manufactured by furnace, and it is essential that a definition should be given so that manufacturers may know what is meant by this.

In the absence of an answer from the Treasury Bench to the hon. Member's question, for which I paused for a moment, I should like to refer to the fact that the night before last I had the misfortune to come into conflict with the Chair because you, Sir, thought I was straying from the point. We now have the advantage of the presence of the Minister of Education, and the point, I think, was not foreign to this special subject. It was that at the present moment it is true of chemical glassware and of all the things enumerated here, beakers, glass, etc., that the product of Germany is one-third the cost here and three times the Germany cost. If we are considering this matter purely from the point of view of protecting British industry we have at least the right to say that the British industry—and no British industry has been more protected since 1914 than the glass industry—irrespective of price, shall produce an article of equal worth. It seems to those of us who follow scientific progress, believing as we do that we have in the Minister of Education a Minister sympathetic with that end, that in view of the many demands upon the Treasury the demand for grants for scientific research must be strictly limited. Great Britain can never hope to compete with Germany until sums have been spent upon all forms of scientific instruments and glassware—

This is clearly less in Order than it was before. The present proposal is to place a duty of 33⅓ per cent. on certain articles, and the only question before the Committee is whether the beakers and other articles named should come within that. The payment of grants for scientific research is entirely outside the question.

If you will bear with me for a moment, I think I shall put myself within your definition. My point is that these things are vital for scientific research and they must be had in our laboratories, and that a limited amount of money will be available. But at present, under these proposals, these things which must be had for research will be had at the greater cost, and therefore we are doing, by this proposal, the very thing to which each of us interested in scientific research is opposed, namely, making it more difficult for us as a nation to carry on scientific research. I hope I am in order in urging that. I am objecting to this imposition of a tariff because it will make these things which we must have until we can produce them at home—at present, irrespective, of cost, we cannot produce them at home—more expensive, and I only wish to say in the presence of the Minister of Education that I know he is in sympathy with that for which we stand—I will not say "we stand," but that which is common to the opinion of every Member of the House, namely, that if this country is to advance in the production of scientific instruments we must have in our laboratories the most up-to-date and most efficient of all things which are necessary, and it is vital, in view of the limited funds at the disposal of the Ministry of Education, that they should be had at the lowest cost. In view of the fact that that point, if I press it. will be, in your opinion, going beyond the immediate scope of the Resolution, I will not press it further. In the first place, I put it to the President of the Board of Trade that in this country we have been for many years almost the sole distributors to our Colonies of chemical glassware produced in Germany. It is not something to be proud of for any Britisher to have to admit that in the production of chemical glassware as a nation we are hopelessly behind. I can assure the President of the Board of Trade, if he is not already aware of the fact, that there are only three firms in this country, despite nearly seven years' advantage of practical protection, who have attempted to produce these things in any serious quantity, and only one firm, and that is a firm in Yorkshire, is entering, into serious competition in the production of these things. That is not to say that our glass manufacturers have taken advantage of the special occasion to produce the finest goods irrespective of cost, and, as we would have liked, the finest goods at a fair market value.

I speak with real knowledge from the point of view of the wholesale distribution of chemical glass, and I say that at this moment if we are to refuse German glassware for chemical purposes we shall be chemically inefficient. I do not say that with any pride. I wish it were not true. I wish the President of the Board of Trade could stand up and say to the Committee: "Before 1914 we were behind our foreign competitors, but our British manufacturers have seized the occasion from 1914 and have so advanced and developed their industry that to-day British chemical glassware is the finest in the world." Unfortunately, that cannot be said. It is true to-day, as it was in 1914, that British chemical glassware is inferior. There is only one firm engaged in chemical glassware in this country to any extent, and more unfortunate still is it that nearly all the workmen engaged, and certainly all the efficient workmen, are foreigners. This is a trade which is not indigenous in this country. It is a trade, to which the British workman does not take well. It is a trade which is taught in Germany by father to son. The Germans come over here and they like the squatting position in which they conduct their trade, which the British workman does not like. They enjoy blow-pipe work, which the British workman will not do. They will take wages which the British workman will not take, and they utterly refuse in our factories in this country to teach this trade to British lads, who would learn it if they could, so that when they come to manhood they would be adepts. It is unfortunately true that at the present time we are as behindhand in Great Britain in the production of chemical glassware as we were in 1914.

Oh, it is you. You said "No" to me the other night. I am interested in the hon. and gallant Gentleman's abrupt contradictions, and yet it is curious that he does not rise afterwards and say: "The hon. Member for Eye is wrong. I will prove him wrong. I will give him the name of the firm. I will tell him the product they produce. I will tell him the price at which they produce it, and I will give testimonials as to the quality of their ware." If I am wrong, I should be glad if the hon. Member will follow me and tell me of a single chemical glass-manufacturing concern of this country that is producing chemical glassware to-day equal to German chemical glassware. If he will prove his case, then I will rise and before the Committee I will express my regret and apologise. What we are up against in this country is that, having lived for more than a generation in a world where there was peace, and having derived in this country the advantage of the best products of every country, we have never set out to master those trades in which certain countries were peculiarly and particularly efficient. If we wish to capture this trade and to secure our own market in the making of this chemical glassware, we must set ourselves patiently to work, and it may be that the opinion of this Committee is that we should put more than 33⅓ per cent. against German or any other country's importation. It may be that we should approve of a subsidy, but do let us recognise the fact that at this present time we have no factory in this country, no chemists in this country, no glass-blowers in this country, no capacity in this country to produce the same quality of chemical glassware as is produced by Germany, whatsoever the price in the market may be. That is the position.

It is a position that I would like to see changed, but do let us get back to the ultimate purpose we have in view. Is it the ultimate purpose that we are going to change that? Then let us deal with our manufacturers. Either prohibit these things utterly, in which case you will be chemically inefficient, or let us say, "Until our British manufacturers can produce the same quality of goods, and since we must have these goods we will receive them on terms most advantageous to ourselves." There is not a surgeon but will deplore the fact if you cannot get German chemical glassware and German chemical products. There is not a surgeon who will not tell you that unless you get certain German instruments you will be surgically inefficient. There is not one of us who if his life was at stake or if the life of his wife or his child were at stake would say, "Operate on my child, on my wife or on myself, but do not use anything German." Science does not know these artificial boundaries which statesmen in their superior wisdom can see. It is all very well for a group of statesmen sitting at Versailles or elsewhere to divide up groups of people and to make amendments of the law of nature, but when you come down to these things which are required for the advancement of science and for the preservation of life, your prohibitions are utterly ridiculous and contemptible. What I am in favour of is that British manufacturers should produce these things; but where is the British manufacturer who has even tried to do it even with the seven years' advantage? There are only three firms who have attempted to do it, and only one is doing it in a serious manner, and even the goods of that firm are inferior to the goods which are produced in Germany.

The vastness and the variety of scientific demands to-day are such that in this country we ought to impose no restrictions and place no hindrances of any sort on the introduction into this country of anything that a foreign country can produce in advance of our own. It is opposed to common-sense for any reason either of punishment or of penalty or the imposition of a tariff for revenue or otherwise to interfere with the flow of scientific thought towards these islands. The worst service that any Government, conceiving its duty from any point of view, can render to this country is to hinder, impede, or deflect the course which scientific goods would otherwise take towards this country for the advancement and well-being of the country as a whole. British chemical glassware is more easily broken in use, and when not in use it deteriorates quickly. It appears to undergo some form of chemical dissociation. It does not stand the heat of a Bunsen flame as well as foreign glassware. Fractures are more frequent, which it is thought are due to bad annealing. It is deficient in vitality which is probably due to its composition. It has a shorter life when exposed to atmospheric conditions. The Minister of Education is present, and I should be glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman, who is very sympathetic towards scientific education and talent, and whose work for the advancement of education, scientific and general, in this country I greatly admire. When he stands at that box, and asks for a grant, part of which is to be applied to technical research, would he advise the Government that they should exclude foreign chemical glassware in connection with scientific education? We would do nothing of the sort. If he could say this to this House, "I warn the House that I am going to ask for increased demands because I am going to use British as against foreign, because the British product is better" or if he could say that the British product is as good it would be a different matter. He will not dispute the statements that I have made, because they are not challengeable, that after seven years of protection British chemical glassware is utterly inferior to the foreign product, and there is no evidence that British manufacturers are taking any proper steps in order to remedy that condition.

Why, therefore, should this Committee be asked to approve of this tariff upon that which we must have if we are not to be scientifically and chemically inefficient. Without being called to order, and as an illustration of the point I am making that since we must have the best, if we are to advance in technical education, and since the best at present comes from abroad, and since the Resolution we are discussing means that it comes in at an increased cost, may I ask the Committee to bear with me while I give a few extracts from a report of the Federated Council of Science Masters' Association, held at Oxford in January. There a Mr. Wood dealt with the question of the increased cost of the National Physical Laboratory. This National Physical Laboratory is of national importance.

I am glad to hear the hon. Member say that, because I am going to quote, and I hope I shall have his support. The National Physical Laboratory conducts tests which are vital to the medical profession at this moment, and vital to the health of the nation. Unfortunately the National Physical Laboratory has had to increase its costs, and one of the reasons was stated by Sir J. E. Petavel who is Director of the National Physical Laboratory. He pointed out that certain charges, particularly with regard to flasks, had been raised from 6d. to 3s., which he considered an impossible price having regard to the fact that prices were falling everywhere and that the only way to meet these falling prices was to decrease expenses. The decrease of expenses meant the curtailing of the scientific staff and the limiting of the capacity of this national institution to serve the well-being and health of the nation. Mr. Griffin gave his views, and cited the suggested increase with regard to burettes from 2s. 6d. to 12s. 6d. How is scientific education to go on in this country when we are not to be economically efficient? It is axiomatic that we ought to have the best scientific instruments from wheresoever they come, and irrespective of cost. I would lay it down as the second axiom that if the best are produced only in a foreign country, since you must have them in order to prosecute research, you ought not to put up a tariff to hinder and impede them from coining in; do not demand a licence and impose restrictions. Since you must have them to be economically and scientifically efficient, have them at the cheapest price you can get them. Otherwise, as there is only a limited amount of money to promote scientific research and public health, you will, as you increase the cost of these things, lessen the capacity to serve the nation. Mr. Baker expressed his views that the new prices suggested were prohibitive, and that it would be impossible to send goods to the National Physical Laboratory, and, further, that unless these prices were decreased, it meant closing down the works; and other members go on in the same sense. Sir J. E. Petavel goes on to say that he attended the meeting with a view to endeavouring to find some solution of the difficulty. It is a financial difficulty, and the Government are increasing that difficulty by these proposals. He mentioned that it was considered that the fee should pay for the work done, but, as a matter of fact, it only covered a small fraction of the cost. The Government were now insisting that the National Physical Laboratory should not allow test work to be done at under cost, and it was not possible to pay 6d. for 5s. worth of work as heretofore. Here are we, as a nation, complaining that we are not as efficient as Germany in the production of certain things, and here is our Government, responsible to all the citizens for our health and scientific advancement, taking a deliberate, an overt and a calculated step to limit, prohibit and delay that very scientific advancement which we are all demanding. That is the proposal before the Committee at this moment. He said that the business of the National Physical Laboratory was being run at a loss. The charge was fixed on cost, salaries, etc., and an overhead charge of 66 per cent., and he did not think this left much for adjustment—in fact, the National Physical Laboratory would be some thousands better off if no goods came in at all. The speaker added that the business of the National Physical Laboratory was being run at a loss.

If they made no tests at all on behalf of general health they would be very much better off, yet they are dependent upon these very goods, the cost of which the Government is going to increase. Let the Government say—every now and then paying lip-service to economy—that it is part of their conception of economy that no further grants should be given to the Minister of Education; that he is a squandermaniac and is spending far too much; that he has far too liberal conceptions—I hesitate to use the word "liberal," but there are some authorities even for that word, and some who even believe in it—of what he ought to do as Minister of Education. Side by side are his colleagues, who are hampering and impeding him at this moment in the things which are of vital importance, namely, technical research. They are asking this Committee—which is unanimously supporting the Minister of Education, believing that unless we become more technically efficient and have a greater concern for education, and are willing to be taxed more heavily for education, that this country will remain as inefficient in these matters as it has been in past years—to take this action.

Then, at this meeting, a certain Member suggested that the fees should be doubled, but that did not meet with much approval. Finally, it says, "Then Sir J. E. Petavel retired." You might well expect he would retire, and that every educationist at this moment would like to retire if he is to be a Victim of this Government's notion of what he is to do in regard to these things. Can any one on the, Front Bench answer the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Mossley (Mr. A. Hopkinson)? It was a very important question, and was not merely a highly technical, but a practical one. What I want to ask the President of the Board of Trade is this: What are we at? Will he say, "I am out to continue the policy of punishment; I hate the Germans. Everything that comes into this country from Germany is to me an

outrage"? Very well, then, say that, Say, "We will have nothing from Germany." That is perfectly logical—

That is coming later on. That is part of the subsequent policy of the Government. That is going to come, in the most curious way, by our prohibiting everything coming in from Germany which we really need. That, however, is a form of logic with which we are becoming increasingly and pain fully familiar, owing to the shell-shock from which we are all suffering as a result of the War. As a nation politically we are shell-shocked beyond anything that can be imagined. I want to ask the President of the Board of Trade if it is not his policy to prohibit these things whether he would do this. Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman for his attention for one moment? [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] Really, this is a very serious matter, and I have been at great pains to provide myself with facts. If any hon. Member who has provided him self with the technical information with which I have equipped myself will get Up—

(Leader of the House) rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 238; Noes, 67.

Division No. 102.]

AYES.

[7.10 p.m.

Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent

Butcher, Sir John George

Dockrell, Sir Maurice

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Carew, Charles Robert S.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Armitage, Robert

Casey, T. W.

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

Cautley, Henry Strother

Edgar, Clifford B.

Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Birm., W.)

Elveden, Viscount

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

Evans, Ernest

Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick)

Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Falcon, Captain Michael

Barnes Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)

Clough, Robert

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

Fell, Sir Arthur

Barnston, Major Harry

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Cohen, Major J. Brunei

Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

Betterton, Henry B.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Forestier-Walker, L.

Bigland, Alfred

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Ganzoni, Sir John

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Cope, Major William

Gee, Captain Robert

Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kind

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E

Craig, Capt. C. C. (Antrim, South)

Gilbert, James Daniel

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)

Brassey, H. L. C.

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Briggs, Harold

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Davies, Sir David Sanders (Denbigh)

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Brown, Major D. C.

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Gregory, Holman

Bruton, Sir James

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Greig, Colonel James William

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Dean, Commander P. T.

Gretton, Colonel John

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

Hailwood, Augustine

Macquisten, F. A.

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Hall, Captain Sir Douglas Bernard

Maddocks, Henry

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

Mall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Magnus, Sir Philip

Seager, Sir William

Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Seddon, J. A.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Manville, Edward

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Simm, M. T.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Martin, A. E.

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

Mason, Robert

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Matthews, David

Steel, Major S. Strang

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Meysey-Thompson, Lieut.-Col. E. C.

Stevens, Marshall

Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Middlebrook, Sir William

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Hills, Major John Waller

Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B.

Sturrock, J. Leng

Hinds, John

Mitchell, William Lane

Sugden, W. H.

Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

Molson, Major John Elsdale

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Sutherland, Sir William

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Hopkins, John W. W.

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

Morrison, Hugh

Thomas-Stanford, Charles

Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Murchison, C. K.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Hume-Williams, Sir W Ellis

Nail, Major Joseph

Townley, Maximilian G

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Neal, Arthur

Tryon, Major George Clement

Hurd, Percy A.

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Waddington, R.

Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Walton, J. (York. W. R., Don Valley)

Jellett, William Morgan

Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Jephcott, A. R.

Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

Jesson, C.

Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

Watson, Captain John Bertrand

Johnson, Sir Stanley

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Pearce, Sir William

Whitla, Sir William

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Williams, C. (Tavistock)

Kidd, James

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.)

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Perkins, Walter Frank

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Perring, William George

Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

Knight, Major E. A. (Kidderminster)

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Wilson-Fox, Henry

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Wise, Frederick

Larmor, Sir Joseph

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Wolmer, Viscount

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H (Univ., Wales)

Prescott, Major W. H.

Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Lindsay, William Arthur

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Lloyd, George Butler

Randies, Sir John Scurrah

Woolcock, William James U.

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Lonsdale, James Rolston

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Lorden, John William

Remnant, Sir James

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Lort-Williams, J.

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Younger, Sir George

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Lowther, Major C. (Cumberland, N)

Rodger, A. K.

Mr. McCurdy and Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. Gilmour.

Lowther, Col. Claude (Lancaster)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Grundy, T. W.

Rendall, Athelstan

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Robertson, John

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Hartshorn, Vernon

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Hayward, Evan

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Briant, Frank

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)

Spencer, George A.

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Hirst, G. H.

Spoor, B. G.

Cape, Thomas

Irving, Dan

Swan, J. E.

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

Johnstone, Joseph

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Wignall, James

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lawson, John James

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

Lunn, William

Wilson, James (Dudley)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

France, Gerald Ashburner

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Galbraith, Samuel

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Wintringham, Thomas

Gillis, William

Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Glanville, Harold James

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Mr. Kiley and Mr. Lyle-Samuel.

Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 235; Noes, 75.

Division No. 103.]

AYES.

[7.20 p.m.

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Gregory, Holman

Nail, Major Joseph

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Greig, Colonel James William

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Armitage, Robert

Gretton, Colonel John

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Astbury, Lieut. Com. Frederick W.

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E.

Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John.

Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick)

Hailwood, Augustine

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)

Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

Pearce, Sir William

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

Barnston, Major Harry

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

Perkins, Walter Frank

Betterton, Henry B.

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Perring, William George

Bigland, Alfred

Herbert Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Hills, Major John Waller

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

Prescott, Major W. H.

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Brassey, H. L. C.

Hopkins, John W. W.

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

Briggs, Harold

Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Remnant, Sir James

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Brown, Major D. C.

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich}

Bruton, Sir James

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Rodger, A. K.

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Hurd, Percy A.

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund

Butcher, Sir John George

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Carew, Charles Robert S.

Jellett, William Morgan

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

Casey, T. W.

Jephcott, A. R.

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool Exchange)

Cautley, Henry Strother

Jesson, C.

Seager, Sir William

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)

Johnson, Sir Stanley

Seddon, J. A.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Birm., W.)

Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Simm, M. T.

Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Clough, Robert

Kidd, James

Steel, Major S. Strang

Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Stevens, Marshall

Coats, Sir Stuart

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Knight, Major E. A. (Kidderminster)

Sturrock, J. Leng

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Sugden, W. H.

Cohen, Major J. Brunei

Larmor, Sir Joseph

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Sutherland, Sir William

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Lindsay, William Arthur

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Cope, Major William

Lloyd, George Butler

Thomas-Stanford, Charles

Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Craig, Capt. C. C. (Antrim, South)

Lonsdale, James Rolston

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Lorden, John William

Townley, Maximilian G

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Lort-Williams, J.

Tryon, Major George Clement

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Waddington, R.

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Lowther, Major C. (Cumberland, N.)

Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley)

Dean, Commander P. T.

Lowther, Col. Claude (Lancaster)

Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)

Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

Dockrell, Sir Maurice

M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

Watson, Captain John Bertrand

Doyle, N. Grattan

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Wheler, Col. Granviile C. H.

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

Edgar, Clifford B.

Macquisten, F. A.

Whitla, Sir William

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Maddocks, Henry

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Elveden, Viscount

Magnus, Sir Philip

Williams, C. (Tavistock)

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.)

Falcon, Captain Michael

Manville, Edward

Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Fell, Sir Arthur

Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Martin, A. E.

Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.

Mason, Robert

Wilson-Fox, Henry

Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

Matthews, David

Wise, Frederick

Forestier-Walker, L.

Meysey-Thompson, Lieut.-Col. E. C.

Wolmer, Viscount

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Middlebrook, Sir William

Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B.

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Ganzoni, Sir John

Mitchell, William Lane

Woolcock, William James U.

Gee, Captain Robert

Molson, Major John Elsdale

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Gilbert, James Daniel

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Younger, Sir George

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Morrison, Hugh

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Murchison, C. K.

Mr. McCurdy and Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. Gilmour.

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Ainsworth, Captain Charles

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Hartshorn, Vernon

Rendall, Athelstan

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Hayward, Evan

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Briant, Frank

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)

Robertson, John

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Hinds, John

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Cape, Thomas

Hirst, G. H.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

Irving, Dan

Spencer, George A.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Spoor, B. G.

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Johnstone, Joseph

Swan, J. E.

Davies, Sir David Sanders (Denbigh)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

Lawson, John James

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Lunn, William

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

France, Gerald Ashburner

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Wignall, James

Galbraith, Samuel

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Gillis, William

Mallalieu, Frederick William

Wilson, James (Dudley)

Glanville, Harold James

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Wintringham, Thomas

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Grundy, T. W.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Mr. Kiley and Mr. Lyle-Samuel.

rose in his place, and claimed to move,. "That the Main Question be now put."

Main Question put accordingly.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 236; Noes, 72.

Division No. 104.]

AYES.

[7.33 p.m.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Dean, Commander P. T.

Hurd, Percy A.

Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Doyle, N. Grattan

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Armitage, Robert

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

Edgar, Clifford B.

Jephcott, A. R.

Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Jesson, C.

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Elveden, Viscount

Johnson, Sir Stanley

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)

Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick)

Falcon, Captain Michael

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Barnston, Major Harry

Fell, Sir Arthur

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Kidd, James

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Betterton, Henry B.

Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Bigland, Alfred

Forestier-Walker, L.

Knight, Major E. A. (Kidderminster)

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Larmor, Sir Joseph

Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

Ganzoni, Sir John

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Gee, Captain Robert

Lindsay, William Arthur

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Lloyd, George Butler

Brassey, H. L. C.

Gilbert, James Daniel

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Briggs, Harold

Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)

Lonsdale, James Roiston

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Lorden, John William

Brown, Major D. C.

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Lort-Williams, J.

Bruton, Sir James

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Gregory, Holman

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Greig, Colonel James William

Lowther, Col. Claude (Lancaster)

Butcher, Sir John George

Gretton, Colonel John

Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)

Carew, Charles Robert S.

Gritten, W. G. Howard

M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

Casey, T. W.

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E.

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Cautley, Henry Strother

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Macquisten, F. A.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Birm., W.)

Hailwood, Augustine

Maddocks, Henry

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill

Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

Manville, Edward

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Clough, Robert

Harntsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Martin, A. E.

Coats, Sir Stuart

Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

Mason, Robert

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Matthews, David

Cohen, Major J. Brunei

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Meysey-Thompson, Lieut.-Col. E. C.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Middlebrook, Sir William

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Hills, Major John Waller

Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B.

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

Mitchell, William Lane

Cope, Major William

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Molson, Major John Elsdale

Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Craig, Capt. C. C. (Antrim, South)

Hopkins, John W. W.

Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.,

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Morrison, Hugh

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Hume-Williams, Sir W, Ellis

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Murchison, C. K.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley)

Nail, Major Joseph

Rodger, A. K.

Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Neal, Arthur

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund

Watson, Captain John Bertrand

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

Nield, Sir Herbert

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool Exchange)

Whitla, Sir William

Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

Seager, Sir William

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

Seddon, J. A.

Williams, C. (Tavistock)

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.)

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Simm, M. T.

Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Pearce, Sir William

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Steel, Major S. Strang

Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

Stevens, Marshall

Wilson-Fox, Henry

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Wise, Frederick

Perkins, Walter Frank

Sturrock, J. Leng

Wolmer, Viscount

Perring, William George

Sugden, W. H.

Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Sutherland, Sir William

Woolcock, William James U.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Prescott, Major W. H.

Thomas-Stanford, Charles

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Younger, Sir George

Ratcliffe, Henry Sutler

Townley, Maximilian G

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

Tryon, Major George Clement

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Remnant, Sir James

Waddington, R.

Mr. McCurdy and Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. Gilmour.

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Ainsworth, Captain Charles

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Rondall, Athelstan

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Hartshorn, Vernon

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Hinds, John

Robertson, John

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Hirst, G. H.

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Irving, Dan

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Briant, Frank

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Spencer, George A.

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Johnstone, Joseph

Spoor, B. G.

Cape, Thomas

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Swan, J. E.

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

Kiley, James Daniel

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Lawson, John James

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Lunn, William

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Wignall, James

Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Wilson, James (Dudley)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

France, Gerald Ashburner

Mallalieu, Frederick William

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Galbraith, Samuel

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Wintringham, Thomas

Gillis, William

Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Glanville, Harold James

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Mr. A. Williams and Major Hayward.

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Grundy, T. W.

Resolved,

That for a period of five years from the passing of an Act for giving effect to this Resolution there shall be charged on any of the following articles imported into Great Britain or Ireland a customs duty of an amount equal to 33⅓ per cent. of the value of the article, that is to say:—

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"2. There shall be charged on any of the following articles imported into Great Britain or Ireland, in addition to any other duties of customs chargeable thereon, a customs duty of an amount equal to 33⅓ Per cent. of the value of the article, that is to say:

Articles of any class or description in respect of which an Order by the Board of Trade has been made under any Act of the present Session for giving effect to this Resolution, if manufactured in whole or in part in any of the countries specified in the Order, or deemed to be so manufactured.

Any such Order as aforesaid may be made on the ground that articles of the class or description in question are being sold or offered for sale in the United Kingdom—

For the purposes of this Resolution, 'cost of production' in relation to goods of any class or description means the current sterling equivalent of—

( a ) The wholesale price at the works charged for goods of the class or description for consumption in the country of manufacture; or

( b ) If no such goods are sold for consumption in that country, the price which, having regard to the prices charged for goods as near as may be similar when so sold or when sold for exportation to other countries, would be so charged if the goods were sold in that country."—[ Mr. Baldwin. "]

It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I state which are the Amendments I propose to call. The first is in the name of the hon. Member for East Suffolk (Mr. Lyle-Samuel) and the hon. Member for Oldham (Sir W. Barton), which proposes that after the word "articles" ["any of the following articles imported into"] there be inserted the words "not being food, raw materials, or semi-manufactured articles." The next is that following in the name of the hon. Member for Oldham and the hon. Member for Middles brough (Mr. T. Thomson), which provides that after the word "Ireland" there be inserted the words, "not being articles manufactured in other parts of the British Empire." If the discussion on those two Amendments is not unduly prolonged, I will call the following Amendment in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Aberdeen (Major Mackenzie Wood), which proposes to leave out the words "in addition to any other duties of Customs chargeable thereon." In any case, I propose to call at a reasonable hour the Amendment in the name of the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord E. Cecil), which proposes to leave out the words "in respect of which an Order by the Board of Trade has been made," and to insert instead thereof the words "included in any Schedule to"; or, alternatively, the Amendment following in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Aberdeen [to leave out the words "an Order by the Board of Trade has been made," and to insert instead thereof the words, "a Resolution has been passed by the House of Commons"], which raises the same constitutional question.

For the convenience of the Committee I should like to understand a phrase that you used just now. What difference is made to the importance of an Amendment by the hour at which it happens to be reached?

It makes no difference to the importance of an Amendment, but to the convenience of discussion. The Chair having to select Amendments, it is natural that the Chair should desire an Amendment of the first importance to be reached within normal hours.

Do I understand an Amendment of some importance may be ruled out and the Mover not called upon on account of a prolonged discussion on some previous Amendment?

I would suggest that this question be put in two parts, inas- much as it applies to two totally different sets of circumstances, one the importation of articles at a dumped price, and the other the importation of dumped articles from a country where the currency is depreciated. I would suggest that these should be put as two separate propositions from the Chair.

This matter has been raised in previous Debates. It was raised in 1907 by Mr. Tennant, and it was ruled that it was not necessary. Of course, it would not be possible to put Customs and Excise Duties in the same Resolution, but in a case where the general subject-matter is the same, that is to say in this case, there is no such consideration. I might say that this point ought to have been raised before I put the Question.

May I ask if the Committee is to understand that an important Amendment which stands in the name of a certain hon. Member can be ruled out by the Chair, on account of prolonged discussion by other hon. Members, over whom the Committee have no possible control?

It is not a question of ruling out Amendments, but of selection of Amendments. The Chairman must be guided in his selection by the circumstances of the case.

I think it is possible that I may have erred in giving any reason at all for my ruling.

May I very respectfully point out that it might be quite possible for an unscrupulous Government deliberately to prolong discussion of a certain Amendment by inciting their supporters, so as to rule out of discussion an Amendment which they do not want exposed to the public? It puts the minority, for the moment, at the mercy of such an unscrupulous Government, although I do not suggest it would be done on this occasion.

I understand your ruling to be that, although there are two Questions here, it may be put as one Question from the Chair. As there are two Questions, will we be at liberty, under Standing Order 26, to move the Closure on one of the two Questions?

The hon. Member is in error. There are not two Questions. There are two conditions mentioned in the Resolution, but there is only one Question, and that Question I have already proposed from the Chair.

I beg to move, after the word "articles" ["any of the following articles imported"], to insert the words "not being food, raw materials, or semi-manufactured articles."

Nothing would be more gratifying than that the President of the Board of Trade should give me some signal which would encourage me to resume my seat, because he was prepared to accept this Amendment. This is an Amendment of that part of the Government's proposal, which, to a Free Trader, is the most offensive one—I mean the introduction of a 33⅓ percent ad valorem duty. It is an admission by the Government that they have decided on a policy to seek certain ends by means of tariffs. Those ends have been camouflaged under various nomenclatures and simulated ideals—lnational defence, employment of British interests as opposed to the world, and soon; but, as a matter of fact, they have never met, or to us on this side, even seemed to attempt to meet the grave objections that are put forward.

All sorts of trades in this country will be wondering whether they are involved in this tariff, and, if so, how deeply they are involved, and to what extent their commitments will involve others. What we are seeking by this Amendment is to extract from the Government some definite declaration which will exclude those industries which they mean to exclude, if they have the intention of excluding any industry. I take it the President of the Board of Trade will accept this Amendment so far as it is limited to food. The President does not nod his head, which may indicate that, he is thinking deeply, or it may be he does not consent. But I take it he does not object to the Amendment in so far as it excludes food. Supposing that is so, then we come to the question of raw material. There was a lengthy Debate yesterday on the question of what constitutes raw material, and it is so revolutionary for the Government of the day to be proposing to substitute as a permanent policy the policy of tariffs, as against the policy of Free Trade, upon which our industries have been built up, that I may be pardoned if I traverse, not in terms of repetition, but in terms of application, some of the arguments used yesterday. The President of the Board of Trade knows as well as I do that a definition of raw material has never been given. It is absolutely impossible.

The hon. Member, with that genius for irrelevance which has characterised his parliamentary career, asks why I put it in my Amendment. It is because every trader wants to know whether he is committed by this Resolution. It is because we want the Government to tell the traders of the country who are anxious to know whether they are brought in or let out. It is because the Government is perpetuating a policy of interference with every trade in this country, so that every business man to-day has to ask, "What does the Board of Trade say about my business? Will the Board of Trade allow me to trade or not? Will the Board of Trade put a duty on?" Really, it is impossible to exaggerate the gravity of the step the Government is taking. I am a strong Free Trader, and I am a strong party man, but I say most sincerely I do not speak either as a Free Trader or as a party man when I say I can see no hope for the industries of the country unless the Government will do one of two things. The first thing I should like them to do is to say as a Government, "We have no competence to control the business of this country. It is not our business to mind other people's business, except in so far as individual interests may clash, when it is our duty to do justice to all classes and units of the community. But we frankly admit we are not competent to guide the business of the country." Or let them say, on the other hand, "We propose to interfere with, to guide, to control, to advise every industry in this country." Then say that to our manu- facturers, but do not leave them in the state in which they will be left if you do not accept this Amendment. If you do not accept this Amendment, manufacturers to whom certain things are the raw material of their industry, will be unable to decide whether they come within the Resolution of the Government or not. Manufacturers, who, as the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) pointed out yesterday, raise vast quantities, amounting to many million, of what are called semi-manufactured articles, will not know whether they are involved in this. If the Government has the genius to understand all the commerce and trade of this country, to interfere with it in every branch, to interpose itself between the heads of businesses and the distribution of their products, surely it is clarity of thought, deliberateness of judgment, to say precisely to this House what industries are involved and what industries are not involved in this Resolution.

If the Government cannot say that, do let them, in consideration of those unhappy manufacturers who are hampered now by the tax collector, hampered by labour difficulties, hampered by the coal strike, and one thing and another, and hardly know how to carry on—do let the Government say, "We have heard so many petitions, and we have refused some and agreed to others. We have the genius to decide what is raw material, and the competence to understand what is semi-manufactured, and here is the result." But will they say it? Of course they will not. Why? Because they do not know, and the manufacturer in this country to-day is in a state of anxiety, perturbation, and difficulty such as he has not been in for 70 years. This is the biggest question before the country. It is the tragedy of every man at this moment who occupies a seat in this House. In a little town near my own home, where every workman lives upon the capacity of one works to employ him, those works are entirely shut down, and there are 3,000 out of employment, which means 3,000 homes where the breadwinner can earn no sustenance for his wife and family. It is a tragedy to one who lives near to hear the pitiful stories. We do not charge the Government with responsibility.

Provided the Government will say, "We will leave you manufacturers to bear your own burdens, to decide your own policy, to take your own course, and to secure your own markets. We will leave you alone. We will not hamper you. You need not come to us at the Board of Trade. Get on with the business. Employ your people. Make profits. Secure your markets." But what does the Government do? It interferes in this futile fashion. It gives no guidance, it opens no market, it finds no customer, it hampers and it hinders, and now, when you are putting on this 33⅓per cent. duty, you are not prepared to say what is raw material. You said not food. I think the right hon. Gentleman nodded agreement that they are not taxing food. You will not say what are semi-manufactured articles, and what is raw material, and the reason is, that like the rest of us to whose faculties there is a limit, the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baldwin) does not know what are semi-manufactured goods and what is raw material. This is so grave a matter that I should like the right hon. Gentleman to stand up at that Box and say, "I am prepared on behalf of the Government to charge myself with the responsibility of this decision. The Government has a collective wisdom which is denied to individual manufacturers. The Government has collective capacity of control in the conduct of business which is denied to individual manufacturers. It is true that if at the end of the year there should be a profit in any industry that profit will be taken from individuals who make it at least as to 50 per cent. There may be more. If there is any loss the unfortunate individual will endure it, being a loyal subject of the Crown, otherwise we should appeal to all loyal subjects to keep order." Alternatively the Tight hon. Gentleman might say, and I think it would be better if the Government did say, that they do not profess this competence to control industry, and that therefore the Government will permit this Amendment, and say that as far as food is concerned, as far as raw material and semi-manufactured articles are concerned, those semi-manufactured articles shall be limited to that Schedule which can be shown of articles upon which British labour will be employed to make them into fully manufactured articles—that as far as such things are concerned the Government shall stand on one side, and that this tariff of 33⅓ per cent. does not apply. If the right hon. Gentleman can give the Committee that assurance, I am sure the Committee will receive it with great gratification.

I should like to say just a word upon the Amendment, because I think this Resolution is far more important than the one which was so summarily disposed of just now. That Resolution was merely silly, this one is pernicious. I am bound to admit that I am not quite clear that this Amendment will make a very material difference in lessening the perniciousness of the Resolution. I am not quite sure that in principle it is right to exclude food and raw material and semi-manufactured goods if you are going to have this policy at all, because we all know why they are to be excluded, as I understood from the Minister of Health's speech they are to be excluded; they are to be excluded because no Government could have a chance of existence for 24 hours if they proposed to put a 33 per cent. duty on food for any purpose, and the Government know that quite well and they are going to exclude it. But the objectionableness of this Resolution is almost as great with this Amendment as without it, and I admit I am in some doubt as to how I shall vote if I am in the Committee when the Division is called. This Resolution to my mind comprises a principle which seems to be in the teeth of everything I care about in international affairs. I cannot conceive on what ground the really intelligent Members of the Government can defend the policy involved in this Resolution with the Amendment or without. They say, we all say, unemployment is the most serious domestic evil of the day. We all say unemployment is due to the incapacity of foreign buyers to buy our goods. Everyone knows that is the cause of the coal crisis, and here this Government which has passed the whole of this Session in proclaiming that doctrine—a doctrine which is perfectly sound—come forward and propose a measure the only effect of which, the only object of which, is to hinder the recovery of our trade. To my mind the most essential thing in the world is to get rid of the relics of the War, to return to the peace mind, and here you have a proposal the object of which is to keep alive the recollection of the War, to inflict on those countries who are least able to bear it an additional burden in the way of their recovery.

We hear a great deal in these days of the Paris Resolutions of 1916. What is forgotten is, that whether these have any relevance to this or not—and for myself I confess I think they have very little—what is forgotten is, there has been the most solemn declaration of international policy concurred in by this Government, concurred in by every civilised State, concurred in by all the greatest financial authorities in Europe, in favour of a policy of oblivion, of sweeping away the relics of the War, and particularly denouncing the existence and the maintenance and the creation of economic barriers which will impede the restoration of trade. No more elaborately solemn declaration of policy has ever been made, initiated by the Supreme Council and representatives of the Great Powers, confirmed by the Brussels Conference comprising experts drawn from 39 different States, and when solemnly accepted and confirmed, first by the Council of the League in which the British Government, of course, is represented, and subsequently by the Assembly of the League representing 41 States. That is a policy of destroying economic barriers. That is an essential thing, and the Government come forward with proposals of this kind, and they ask us to believe that they are serious in a policy of international reconciliation. I do not think this Amendment will make it very much better—in some ways I am not sure it will not make it worse. It will show that this policy is a purely selfish policy. It has no object at all except the purest national selfishness—

and it cannot be carried out in its full extent, not because it cannot be carried out so as to cover food and raw material, not because the Government have any lingering desire to carry out a real international policy, to make a real effort to heal the wounds of the world, but because they are afraid that they will lose their places if they carry out their policy to a logical conclusion.

The speech of the Noble Lord reconciles those of us who remained to hear it to the empty Benches that I am sorry to say greeted it. I only hope it will receive a little publicity outside this House and will stir the conscience of that great public outside which, after all, makes and unmakes Governments. The Secretary to the Department of Overseas Trade, speaking earlier in the day, said he would leave a certain questen to myself and the Committee. He will have to justify the provisions of this Resolution to a much greater public than the few Members who choose to come and listen to his speeches or mine, and at a much greater bar of history than that yellow line drawn across the floor of this House. One example of the way trade is being hindered to-day is worth a great deal of theory, and I wish particularly to draw attention to the case of a semi-manufactured article affecting a very lucrative and important trade. I had with me yesterday an important manufacturer who manufactures a very well-known brand of proprietary cigarettes—I will not give the name because I have no desire to advertise it—and he has practically a monopoly of trade in the Dutch East Indies which, as hon. Members are aware, is a very wealthy part of the world and a great market for this class of goods. The people in the Dutch East Indies insist on smoking gold-tipped cigarettes. Now, gold-tipped cigarettes are not tipped with gold; they are tipped with a chemical paper that is so treated as to appear like gold, and this paper, which all of us have had in our mouths at some time or another, is manufactured entirely, exclusively and solely in Germany. He cannot get this paper by hook or by crook. He has not been able to get it since the War broke out. He can only get it by smuggling it from Switzerland. In consequence he is unable to execute his orders in the Dutch East Indies, and he is actually paying off workpeople in a certain district of London, and this trade is going right into the hands of the Germans themselves. That is an example of a type of semi-manufactured goods. It may seem unimportant to hon. Members, but it worth hundreds of thousands of pounds in trade and in wages every year. I suppose because the hon. and gallant Gentleman, the Secretary to the Department of Overseas Trade thinks we are going to fight another war the day after to-morrow, and it is, therefore, necessary to conserve the chemical process involved in the manufacture of this paper, which cannot be made here because nobody has the secrets, we are going to play fast and loose with British industry. I will not spend another moment on this question of semi-manufactured goods. I have given a very pertinent example, and it shows the great ramifications of our trade and also the reckless and insane policy involved in these Resolutions. Is it really intended that certain classes of food, for example, tin food, are to be classed as manufactured goods? Certain sorts of tinned meats and foods are as complicated in their manufacture as other articles, and unless this Amendment is accepted or we have some pledge from the Government, it would be possible to put a tax on foreign foods under the second part of this Resolution, because of collapsed exchanges. The other example is that of sugar from German South-west Africa, and we may be forced to buy—

It being a quarter-past Eight of the Clock, further Proceeding was postponed without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 4.

Old Age Pensions

I beg to move, the Act as they stand. In the present Motion, however, we merely suggest a very limited reform, but whilst we may describe it as very limited it would meet a very urgent need, and would also remove a very widely felt grievance. The case for universal pensions appears to me to be almost irresistible. A pension, I think, ought to rest as a citizen's right. It should not be subject, as unfortunately it is to-day, to any poverty test, or lead to any inquisitorial investigation. Moreover I consider that the retention of the means limit is really indefensible. Experience goes to show that it operates with the greatest possible harshness against many of our best citizens. In fact a considerable number of very worthy people who have in different ways made some provision for themselves—which provision is altogether inadequate, having regard to the existing cost of living—are penalised because of the operation of this limit. Further as a result of its operation, thrift is actually discouraged. We can cite very many cases which go to show that organisations such as friendly societies and similar bodies, as well as employers, hesitate to do all that they might to asist the aged because of it. Since I placed this Motion on the paper I have been somewhat surprised at the number of letters I have received illustrating the hardship under which many pensioners labour as the result of the operation of the means limit. May I trouble the House with one which I have selected out of a number: employers, out of their generosity, allow the aged to continue receiving the gift of free coal, and this free coal is actually assessed in order to secure a reduction in the rate of pension they received.

A few days before I was successful in the ballot and put down this Motion, an employer in the House said to me: "In my firm we have been considering whether we should not institute a scheme of superannuation. We have gone into it, and we find that if we were to do so, as soon as we got the thing launched the men who are over age would be taken advantage of by having some reduction in their old age pension, the equivalent of what the firm would be prepared to pay." After what I have said, I am quite sure the House will not be surprised to find how severely the means limit is condemned by the Departmental Committee on Pensions which sat in 1919, a very representative Committee presided over by the hon. and learned Member for Middleton (Sir Ryland Adkins). If there is one feature in connection with their report, and especially the report of the majority, that stands out more prominently than all the rest, it is the condemnation of the means limit and its effect. The Committee say that tional expenditure of £4,350,000 a year. That was as a result of the raising of the means limit to £49 17s. 6d., or, in round figures, almost £1 a week. Coming to the finance required to make this Motion effective, I want to say quite frankly that it would involve an additional expenditure of something like £13,000,000 a year. The amount spent on old age pensions before the Amending Act of 1919 was passed was £17,500,000. I believe the amount spent at present is something like £28,000,000, and if the £13,000,000 to which I have just alluded were added to that, it would bring the grand total for old age pensions up to the sum of £41,000,000 a year. Possibly the only doubt existing in the minds of most hon. Members will be as to whether under existing circumstances this sum can be raised. I venture to remind the House that the cost of our armed forces has gone up from £86,000,000 in 1913 to £269,000,000 in 1920, and I need not say the money has been raised. May I very briefly put before the House what I consider are the arguments in favour of an extra expenditure of £13,000,000 for this very beneficent object? First, I think it would encourage thrift and saving amongst the great working population of our country. It would also diminish the number of officials, who spend a considerable amount of time in their inquisitorial investigations, finding out by what manner of means they can lodge a case for the reduction of the pension, or the refusal of the pension in the first instance.

It seems to me that at a comparatively small cost a great need would be met. That need is, I think, having regard to existing circumstances, that we should move a stage beyond the position reached by the original Act. I do not think it can be claimed in connection with the 1919 Act, which was good so far as it went, that it was really an advance. If hon. Members will examine the position, they will find that we barely kept abreast of the increased cost of living which was entailed upon these pensioners, and I think the time has come when we should proceed much beyond that stage. It is quite true that the 1919 Act doubled the means limit, but by doubling the means limit we only gave the right to the aged which they would have had under the original Act if the cost of living had not been increased as it was as the result of the years of the War. The means limit in 1914 was £28, in round figures; it is now £49. An income of £28 17s. 6d. in 1914 was, in my opinion, worth more in the purchasing of the necessaries of life than is an income of £49 17s. 6d. now. The cost of living was in April of the present year 133 per cent. above the figure for July, 1914. For all these reasons, I think we are entitled to ask the House to give more generous consideration to our aged people.

May I also point out that at present an aged person with £1 per week income can receive no pension. We are actually spending £2 2s. 9d. per week for each prisoner we send to penal servitude, yet if an individual, however worthy a citizen that individual may have proved himself or herself to be in ordinary civil life, has an income of £1 per week, we say: "Oh, no, the State will not give you any assistance whatever." We spend £1 1s. 11½d. per week on each pauper, exclusive of administration expenses. Surely we should be prepared to spend more on our aged poor than we spend on either our paupers or our criminals. May I remind the House that a man to whom a war pension is due does not need to plead poverty; all he needs to plead is service. If he can show service, then that service is recognised. We on these Benches strongly hold—and I think there are many Members of all sections of the House who also hold—that it should not be poverty but service in civil life that ought to be the ground upon which we should base any recognition to the right for an old age pension. In other words, the aged should be treated as citizens who have deserved well of their country, and not treated as paupers who happen to have survived too long.

I hope, therefore, the House will accept the Motion and declare—and I hope the Government will give the House a free hand in declaring—that the means limit, so objectionable, as I have already pointed out, is to be removed. One word with regard to the Amendment. It urges the need for economy. It says the time is inopportune for adding to the burdens already borne by the taxpayer. I am glad the Amendment recognises that the present system works hardship upon our aged people. So far so good. The only question between the Mover of the Amendment and those responsible for the Motion is when is this hardship to be removed? We are all in favour of the strictest economy. I am, however, tempted to think—and many of those on these Benches are tempted to think that this claim for economy is in danger of being pushed just a little too far. Anyhow, I want to make this point: I have analysed the official documents that were submitted to the country towards the end of 1918 when we were seeking the suffrages of the people. I have read the manifesto issued by the Prime Minister. I have read the joint document issued by the Prime Minister and the late Leader of the House. I think I can safely say that it was nowhere indicated in those documents that the idea of economy was to fee pushed to the withholding of some of the great schemes for the amelioration of the lot of the masses of the people there presented with such cogency and force. But there is just the danger that our cry for economy should continue until we perpetuate an admitted injustice.

We are in favour of economy. The way to get this strict economy referred to in the Amendment is to stop wasting money in directions which are positively antisocial, to stop spending money on those things that cannot be shown to be of direct benefit to the great masses of people, but which merely add to their burdens in ever-increasing degree; what is worse, going in the direction that produces the menace of further war. The essence of economy is to spend money wisely. I would ask the House which is wiser, to spend money on military expeditions and on armaments, on the large increases in the amounts to maintain the Army on the present peace-footing compared with the anti-War footing, or as we suggest? We are of opinion that the claims of the military should not be pressed so far, nor the claims of these unfortunate expeditions, and that some greater consideration should be given to our aged poor. The virtue of thrift is being continually dinned into our ears by those in authority. I sincerely trust that no substantial section of Members of this House are prepared to refuse to remove this great present injustice which exercises such severe hardship upon so many of our worthy citizens. I appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to allow both Motion and Amendment to be submitted to the free judgment of the House, and now that his Budget is through, or at any rate, has been submitted for the present year, if he tells us the money cannot be found at once, to allow the House free expression. If by a majority they declare that this £13,000,000 should be expended for these benevolent purposes, then I suggest arrangements, should be made whereby the provision can be put into operation in the next Budget.

I beg to move to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words

If this country happened to be on that grand level of prosperity which we enjoyed on the eve of the Great War, and which appeared to be enjoyed in the trade boom which followed the War, I am sure there would be very little difference of opinion with regard to the attitude of the House and the country on this matter, and I am sure nearly everybody in the House would be only too glad if the Government adopted a generous attitude towards the claims of old age pensions. At the present time it is more our duty than at any time in our past history—and this has been recognised by the leaders of the Independent Liberal party and the Labour party—to be the guardians of the public purse. The first question we have to ask is, what is the burden which this proposal involves upon the taxpayers of this country? The right hon. Gentleman himself has put the measure of that burden down at the sum of £13,000,000, which I am quite prepared to accept as being substantially accurate. I do not think, however, that that represents the full extent of the burden which the acceptance of this Resolution would involve. The House must remember that the grievances of the old age pensioners are not in the least isolated grievances. There are an enormous number of small sections of the community who suffer from grievances very closely analogous to those which are suffered by the old age pensioners.

There are many pre-War pensioners who are living under conditions much more harsh than the old age pensioners—I refer to the members of the Irish Constabulary and to retired teachers who have grievances just as keen as the pensioners, and who have a very great claim, upon the philanthropy of the people. In their cases the sums Required to bring up their pensions to a proper level of subsistence are very small compared with the sum of £13,000,000 asked for in this case. It is material that the House should realise that once you open the doors to these claims for relief in view of hard circumstances, you are opening it not to one class but to many classes, some of whom have performed much more direct service to the State than the great body of old age pensioners, and these other classes have a special claim upon the generosity of the people of this country.

I should like to address myself to that portion of the Amendment which contends that the present moment is inopportune for bringing this particular case forward. We have been told that the Government is extremely extravagant, but that is quite immaterial, and because the Government have been extravagant in a certain direction that is no reason for imposing further expenditure upon the country. That point is irrelevant to the discussion. I want the Members of the Labour party to realise that this proposition involves a great hardship upon the taxpayers, and that this means not only a great burden upon those who pay high taxes, but upon the workers as well. It would be an excellent thing if only the Labour party did not merely represent a pampered and comparatively prosperous section of the community. May I point out that there is an enormous range of the population who are much poorer and have to struggle much harder for existence than those privileged trades unionists who find their champions in the Members of the Labour party?

In my own district distress and misery and unemployment are rampant. There is an intolerable burden of poverty, and an incessant feeling of anxiety because people do not know when they are going to be turned off work owing to the stoppage in the coal trade, which is so vitally affecting our industries. Those are phenomena which depress and darken the life of a class quite outside the privileged class for whom the trade unions cater. Take the case of a poor woman who wants coal, and has to pay 3s. 6d. for a bag of slack owing to the iniquitous strike of the miners. That is the class for which I am speaking, and they are not capitalists, but they feel the burden of taxes. For taxes enter into the cost of production, and they affect wages, and if you load capital with high taxes you are loading every class of the community in the same proportion.

The position of affairs has altered enormously since December, 1918, when the then Leaders of the Coalition issued the manifesto to which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Widnes has referred. At that time there was comparative industrial calm in the country. The economic outlook was then certainly much more hopeful than it is now. It is almost ironical to think that we are now being asked to impose a fresh burden upon the finances of the country at a time when we are engaged in a life and death struggle with people who wish to change the whole fundamental basis of society. A large proportion of the population are engaged in what is practically civil war.

The hon. Member is now getting wide of the Amendment.

May I point out that the issue in the Amendment before the House is whether the proposal in this Resolution is opportune or not, and I respectfully submit that it is in order to show the condition of England at the present time in order to prove my point that to-day it is inopportune to bring forward a proposal of this sort. These facts are evident to the House and I have no wish to dwell upon them. Many of my hon. Friends are more associated with the civil war than I am, and they will know who is responsible. I should like to draw the attention of the House again to the Amendment in the name of my hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Stephen-son) and myself. The Amendment expresses, in the first instance, sympathy with the hardships of the old-age pensioners, and then urges that the present time is inopportune to deal with those, hardships. That is not by any means a doctrine of despair. It is a doctrine really of hope. If the two great impediments in the way of complying with this very natural demand of old-age pensioners are removed, the time will at once become opportune, and I think that the whole body of public opinion in the country would be at one in supporting the removal of the grievances to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred. What are those impediments? The first is, undoubtedly, the need for economy and retrenchment in all the Departments of State. That has been the work of the House of Commons during the last year or two, and it is a work which it has shown itself determined to insist upon.

The second essential condition precedent to the removal of these grievances is that the country must go back to work, and that this state of civil war must come to an end. If only hon. Gentlemen on the labour Benches would dedicate themselves to the restoration of peace, they would have far more chance of bringing about these admirable reforms, to which all sections of society look forward with equal confidence when once these clouds disappear. At the present moment it is quite obvious that, being in the midst of a life-and-death struggle with people who desire to bring about absolute chaos and deadlock in our industrial life, this country cannot afford to pledge itself to a bounty which would have to come out of the pockets of people who are desperately striving against odds to keep above the poverty line. It is also inopportune because it commits the country to obligations which, in the present state of things in England, it is absolutely im- possible for it to discharge without trenching upon its capital, and thereby acting detrimentally to the true and more permanent interests of the commonwealth.

I beg to Second the Amendment. Frankly, I may say, that, while I do not commit myself to everything that was said by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Henderson), I do sympathise, and I think probably every one in this House, irrespective of party, sympathises entirely with the terms of his Motion. But I venture to submit, as my hon and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Hurst) has just done, that no possible moment could be more inopportune for the introduction of such a Motion than the present one. I may be told that I myself have spoken and written in support of the change which the right hon. Gentleman has proposed, or, even, that I have signed memorials in its favour, and I am not going to say anything whatever which will be unsympathetic as regards the merits of the question. So far as I am concerned, the matter is entirely and purely one of the appropriate moment when such a change should be made. It appears to me that our sympathies may have got the better of us outside this Chamber, but within it we are face to face with very hard facts, and very hard figures, the latter running, as we have just heard, into many millions of pounds. These facts and figures force some of us—I hope most of us—to realise that, while reforms which, no doubt, are in themselves desirable, appear possible in the, shall, I say, persuasive atmosphere of the Lobbies, or even in the rarified atmosphere of a committee room, when those same reforms are brought before the judgment of this House—where it is essential, in the interests of the nation, that the head should rule both the heart and the purse—while they appear no less desirable in themselves than before, the difficulties of their accomplishment appear much greater, and their expediency when, as in this case, they involve money which we have not got, appears very much less.

Let me remind the House that these old-age pensions were introduced long before I was a Member, but probably within the memory of some who are here, by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), at a time when the finances of the country were in very much better feather than they are to-day. All through the prosperous years before the War, and also in December, 1919, when an agreed compromise Act was passed in a single day, this grievance existed, and it was unredressed; and now, although it has gone on all that time unredressed, and, so far as I have read the Debate which took place in December, 1919, with nothing specific said about it, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Widnes comes forward to ask the Government to find the millions necessary for its removal at a time of the most acute financial difficulty. I venture to submit to the House that it is not reasonable to ask the Government to redress this grievance now under present circumstances. I do not think the Government can be accused of having been unmindful of the interests of the old-age pensioners, and I do not think the right hon. Gentleman suggested that they had. But I think it is well that the House should remember, as the right hon. Gentleman himself has reminded it, that under that Act, passed, as I have said, in a single day in 1919, with acclamations from the Members who represent the Labour party, the amount of pension was doubled, making it 10s. a week. The scale of yearly means was also raised, so that the maximum rate of pension, previously payable to persons whose yearly income did not exceed £21, is now payable to persons whose yearly means do not exceed £26 5s.—that is to say, to those who have another 10s. per week from some other source. More than this, persons whose incomes from other sources are between £31 10s. and £49 17s. 6d., and who, before the passing of the 1919 Act, were ineligible for any pension, can now draw a reduced pension of 6s. to 1s. per week, according to their position in the scale.

A further concession was made which has not been alluded to, and that is that old-age pensioners who are in really necessitous circumstances can draw outdoor relief in conjunction with the old-age pension. I believe that the 1919 Act increased the number of old-age pensioners by something like 20 per cent. or 25 per cent., and I think the right hon. Gentleman who moved the Motion mentioned that the cost, of this old-age pension scheme in 1913–14—before the War—was £13,000,000. In 1920–21 the cost was some £26,000,000, and I believe that now it is £28,000,000. It appears to me that in face of so recent a settlement as the Act which was passed in December, 1919, barely a year ago, and in the present acute financial position of the country, which we must all admit is overburdened with debt and overwhelmed with taxation and does not know where to turn for money, to ask for more millions to redress a grievance which is not a new one, but existed in December, 1919, exactly as it exists to-day, is an unreasonable proposition.

There is another point which ought to be mentioned. There appears to me to be some doubt as to whether old age pensioners, under the present financial position, would really reap the full reward if this change were made. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind, or in the minds of most people, that high taxation and high prices go together, and old age pensioners have to pay those high prices just the same as everyone else, and if we are going to increase taxation for every desirable social reform which may turn up without regard to the financial position of the country, we are going to keep up high prices and take away with one hand what we give with the other. I think we shall benefit old age pensioners and the community in general more if we try to get taxation down and reduce the cost of living for them and everyone else, and I hope the Mover of the Motion will himself realise that the present moment is not opportune for such a change as he proposes. I think he almost realises it, because he suggested next year instead of this. That is a step in the right direction, and if he will be satisfied with the sympathy of the House to-night—and you cannot express sympathy in a tangible form unless you have the money to do it with—and bring the Motion forward at a more convenient season, I shall be very glad to support it. Let him come to the House then, and not only I, but I am sure a good many others will give him their support. But to-night we should be no true custodians of the public purse if we were to ask the Government to find these many millions now. I hope the House will take this view and will free itself from that reproach which was levelled at it by the Prime Minister in an economy Debate last year, when he said that while private Members railed at the Govern- ment for their extravagance outside the House, when they came to the House with legislative proposals these were always in the direction of spending more money.

I shall cast no stone at the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has moved the Amendment, although to my mind he did not enhance his case by the tone he adopted. I do not think either he will benefit his case by lecturing certain Members of the House on civil war. The Amendment is moved, and there are three arguments put forward in favour of it. In regard to economy, so far as my experience goes, I have never failed to hear the same plea put forward when anything of this sort was demanded. The time is always inopportune. But somehow or another, when money is wanted, for purposes which are perhaps urgent, but no more urgent than this reform, it is found, and in far greater volume than is demanded by this Motion. The second argument was that it would create an injustice as between certain civil servants, police, Irish constabulary, and other people who have small pensions, and therefore are hard pressed at present. One very important distinction between the civil servant and the beneficiary under the Old Age Pensions Act is, that while the civil servant is assured during his working life of wages, if not of work, the beneficiaries under the old age pensions are the victims of a system of industry which involves them being very largely out of work. Their wages are determined very largely by the cost of living, there is little margin, nor can there be a margin, under the system under which we are living, and I would ask my hon. and gallant Friend to have regard to that fact.

The Irish policeman's grievance is that he is dismissed and retired from the police, and cannot get work owing to the fact that he has been in the police.

I assume my hon. and gallant Friend meant that that man had a pension. It may be too small, and if a case was put up for an increase it would find my support. But that man has a pension, and he has had wages during his working life which the other man has not had. The third argument in favour of the Amendment was that it would press hardly upon those of the poorer classes, including the old-age pensioners them- selves, who have to buy goods which might be enhanced slightly in price as the result of the increased millions. The simple answer to that is that the working people themselves, with that in their mind, are quite content to foot the bill so far as their share is concerned. I suppose the chances of a Vote on this Motion are diminished in proportion as long speeches are made. I am not going to fall into the error therefore of making a long speech, but I am going to support very heartily my right hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. Henderson) on this Motion. He has travelled over ground that is familiar to us in putting up a claim not for a pension to some, but for a pension to all as a civic right. I heartily endorse that principle. We demanded, pensions when I came into this House 16 years ago as a civic right, on the same principle as education is now given to the boy or girl of any parent in this country, no matter how poor or rich he may be. I have never departed from that principle. It seems to me it is a principle which will have to be given effect to some time or other and to my mind the sooner the better. The absence of giving effect to that principle lands us into all sorts of anomalies, and I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman on the front Bench that the existence of these limitations is unjust and impolitic. As my right hon. Friend has pointed out, they involve putting a premium upon improvidence. Take the case of a man who has been in a friendly society all his life, or a trade union, sometimes both, as most of us are. Take my own case. I have been a member of a friendly society and a trade union for over 40 years. I am entitled, although I shall never claim it, to 18s. a week. When I got my 18s. a week I should be entitled from the State to another 2s. a week. Why should I be penalised for having all my working life subscribed to a pool so that in my old age I should be entitled to a pension, not as a charity, but as a right, having subscribed to the pool from which the pension comes? That is altogether unjust. It is quite as unjust in regard to the person who makes some provision apart from subscribing to an organisation.

I, like my right hon. Friend, have had some letters sent to me in regard to persons applying for pensions. I will give one case, and it is that of a widow of an old friend of mine who died when I was at Geneva last November. This old man had remained at work all his life. Like myself he was a member of my organisation, but he never claimed his superannuation. He remained at work. He was a vigorous old man, well over the psalmist's allotted span. He has left a widow. He was a saving man. The widow has applied for a pension, and I am told that all these pettifogging examinations into her means have begun, and have continued for months. Within the last few days I have been told by a friend of hers and of mine that the examination as to her means is still going on and, as he says, the old age pension authorities seem to think that they had better badger the old woman about until she dies, and then they will escape their liability. She is over 70 years of age. It is this examination into the private means of the most deserving of our poor that I object to.

My hon. Friend who seconded the Amendment said that the old age pensioner could supplement the old age pension by application to the Poor Law authorities. The old woman of whom I speak, and I know that she is typical of many more, would rather starve than go to the Poor Law authority. It is because the receipt of the old age pension under present conditions involves a social stigma that we attach so much importance to doing away with this examination as to private means. Therefore I suggest to my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it is unjust to keep up this means limit, because it involves penalising those men and women who have been careful during their working life, because they have been careful. It is also impolitic. Surely, the Government want to encourage thrift. In proportion as you keep up this means limit examination you encourage people to go on in a lackadaisical way through life, because they are assured that when they get to the age of 70 they will get their £1 a week or their 10s. a week from the State, just as a man or woman who has saved and made some provision for old age. I am sorry that my right hon. Friend does not attach much importance to that argument.

I hope the right hon. right Gentleman does not think that I was showing any lack of interest. I was paying every attention.

I apologise. I put forward these two arguments to the right hon. Gentleman, that it is unjust to penalise the man or woman who has saved and that it is impolitic on the part of the Government to encourage and to perpetuate a system which is so unjust and which discourages rather than encourages thrift. I appeal to him to let the House of Commons have a free run to-night. We quite appreciate the arguments of the hon. and gallant Gentleman who moved the Amendment as to the great burden which the country is bearing at the present time, but £13,000,000 is not a great addition to the burden we are now carrying. Whatever may be said, the House of Commons is not a crowd of schoolboys. We all know these things, and if the right hon. Gentleman would only leave the House free to express its opinion to-night upon the merits of the case as put forward, the House, if not the Government, would be quite disposed to open its heart and to release its purse-strings and to remedy this great anomaly.

I desire to join with my two right hon. Friends in trying to get the sympathetic ear of the House in favour of this Resolution. I listened with regret to what I consider to be the most unsympathetic speech that it has been my lot to hear since I came to this House, and I should like to say something which will show the hon. and gallant Member who moved the Amendment that we miners are not the bad lot that he would make the House believe. We pay our share of taxes according to our ability to pay in a greater degree, perhaps, than the hon. and gallant Member. In addition, in the shape of voluntary taxation we make provision for old age. Every miner in the county to which I belong at the age of 14 begins to make provision for old age. Immediately work begins a deduction is made from his wages for provision at the age of 60 of a pension, provided that he is certified to be unable to continue work. At least 90 per cent. of the miners in the county of Durham are members of some friendly society, and there again they are making some provision for old age. We always provide for the age of 60. Unfortunately for the old people the Government have not thought fit to gel down to that age. The arduous toil of the miner very often breaks him down before he is 60, and he is, consequently, thrown upon the generosity of his fellows. Over and above that, may I remind my hon. and gallant Friend that the miners make provision for those in need, in no uncertain way? In the county of Durham we have 700 houses provided by the miners who are still left working, and these houses are allotted to our old people who have failed to continue working. We voluntarily levy ourselves to that extent. What do we find because of our generosity? I remember the case of one of my old friends who had to cease work at seventy years of age, and he found the economic position so pressing that life was rather a burden after toiling all those years for the benefit of the State. After all, we claim that the industrial worker is just as necessary as any of the services which my hon. and gallant Friend so happily enumerated in speaking against this Resolution. I want to tell him that if there were no worker or producer many of those other people who are receiving pensions at the hand of the State of a vastly greater amount than that for which we are pleading would be minus that pension. As producers we have an equal right to citizenship with any other persons in the State. Immediately this poor old man and his wife entered into their house the pensions officer reduced the pension by the value of the house which the coal miners had provided and saved the Government that amount. Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman think that that induces people to be generous to old folk? The miners are a kindly people, and often take the toilers, the men who have not a home or who have lost their wife, into their rooms where they are with friends and are probably dependent on others for a home. I have known workmen take into their homes old men who have ceased to work. They have said to them, "Now, with your pension, we will struggle along." The pensions officer, however, immediately comes to inquire into the man's allowance, and sets down so much for the generosity of the man who has given him shelter.

Most of the miners in my own county voluntarily levy themselves to give still further aid in money beyond what the old men had been provided with. If they do that, the Government takes that money from us by reducing the pension. I want to point out to my hon. and gallant Friend that no other gifts I know of except this are taxed by the Government. The Government tax is not 3s. or 6s. in the £, but the whole amount which his fellow workers give. I want the hon. and gallant Gentleman to remember that when he reviles the miners in his next speech in the House. What he may save on the swings by rejecting this Resolution and attacking people who are prepared to give to the aged poor he may lose on the roundabouts. He should remember that the miners are ratepayers as well as taxpayers. These people hate the Poof Law like poison; indeed, very few ever apply for Poor Law relief. I have lived in an area where the collieries are included in a city Poor Law union, and it is well known that for every £10 which goes from the mining areas into the coffers of that union only £1 in Poor Law relief comes back again. If my hon. and gallant Friend refuses to accept this Resolution and still continues to take away from the aged poor what their friends are prepared to give them then they will be driven by sheer force of circumstances to the Poor Law. That will cost this country, as ratepayers if not as taxpayers, twice or thrice the amount which it costs now. So that there is little advantage, from an economic point of view, in the position taken up by the hon. and gallant Gentleman. We ought, as far as possible, to see that the future of the people of the country does not appear black and unpromising. I believe the fear of the future is the cause of more unrest and crime than anything else. Let the hon. and gallant Gentleman remember these things, and then I feel sure when next a matter like this comes before the House he will take a rather different attitude. I hope I have made it clear that we are not quite so bad as he would have the House believe. I think we have the sympathy of this House with the Resolution, and I trust that the Minister in charge will give the House freedom in this matter, so that proof may be afforded that hon. Members have been sent here to look after the interests of the citizens and human life.

I hope the House will give me its indulgence if I say a few words on this Resolution from the point of view of one who had the honour to be Chairman of the Committee appointed to inquire into the question of old age pensions. It consisted of 18 ladies and gentlemen, it held a very large number of meetings, examined a very large number of witnesses, and published a Report of some length and an Appendix so long that I do not think many Members of this House have yet found leisure or inclination to read it all. This is one of those, questions which appeal to many of our better feelings and which raises a problem of remarkable difficulty, because we have to apply to a highly complex civilisation if possible a remedy for a great deal of suffering which so far as we can ascertain is in the vast majority of cases undeserving. This Committee was charged by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, the present Leader of the House, with the duty of inquiring into the matter of old age pensions. We approached it from the point of view of people who desired, in the first place, to ascertain, so far as they could, how the the existing Old Age Pensions Act was working, and how far it really met the object, not of giving a complete livelihood to all people, but of giving such assistance to them as would in practice very often make all the difference between an appeal to the Poor Law for destitution and some-thing approaching a continuing of the way in which they had been living in earlier days. I can answer I believe, for all my colleagues—certainly if there were any of them who entered on that inquiry with a preconceived opinion and determination to force a particular issue, I do not know which of them it could have been—that we entered on that inquiry seeking to go on the path which investigation pointed out to us and not to lay down at the outset some theory.

We had representatives of the various schools of political thought which this House contained; we had a number of eminent civil servants; and we had two ladies of great experience in social work. I am quite confident that there was no appreciable number of those amongst us who would have said, when we commenced the inquiry, that we were going to find, under any circumstances or subject to any qualifications, in favour of universal old age pensions. At the end of that inquiry, however, by eleven votes to seven, we recommended, with a certain caveat as to finance which I will read to the House in a moment, that there should be established in this country old age pensions for everybody. We know exactly what happened when that Report was presented to the House. So great a change in the policy of the country, based as it must be upon careful consideration of a complex subject, was too large a matter for Parliament in a week or two to deal with with the thoroughness it deserved. Accordingly, a Measure was brought in hurriedly, for which I want to-night to repeat my thanks to the Government, which did make very material alterations and which, as regards the amount of pension, went very near to neutralise the changed value of money. In addition, it provided a number of smaller reforms, each comparatively unimportant, but which, in their totality, brought within the Act hundreds, I daresay even thousands, of old people who did not benefit before because of the various details which hindered their coming under the Measure as it was previously.

Personally I am grateful to my right hon. Friend (Mr. Henderson) for giving the House an opportunity of discussing this matter. I did ask the late Leader of the House (Mr. Bonar Law) if it was not possible to assign at least a day for the discussion of this reform. I know that it had his sympathetic consideration, but we all know that within the last year and a half the condition of things, partaking largely of the condition of war in international matters and of great unsettlement in domestic affairs, has made it impossible for this Government, as it would be for any Government, to go into a question like this as soon or as fully as most hon. Members would desire. Therefore I welcome the opportunity given to-night to have this matter brought to the attention of the House so far as it is possible to do so in the time available. But a discussion which by the rules of this House can only be extended for less than three hours is, to those of us who are perhaps prejudiced by having spent several months on it, somewhat inadequate. It may well be that this is only the first instalment of a discussion which I for one hope will lead in the end to the establishment of the principle which the majority of our Committee recommended.

I may say, not as hostile criticism but as analysing my right hon. Friend's Motion, that it does combine two distinct matters. It is so drawn that it says that the House ought to adopt this principle which was represented by my hon. and gallant Friend who led the attack (Lieut.- Colonel Hurst) as being a call for an immediate large expenditure. When, however, we look at it two separate matters are involved. The first is the establishment of a principle which is novel and far-reaching, but which I hope the House will think is right. The second is the application of that principle immediately or in the very near future irrespective of, or at any rate without being prevented or delayed by, the financial position in which the country finds itself. On that point after various remarks we argue, and I believe we are correct, that the grant of a 10s. pension to every person on reaching the age of 70 would involve a total expenditure of £41,000,000 a year, or £9,000,000 more than the cost involved in granting pensions to persons below the Income Tax limit, and we continue: they did not destroy the pension. We found that the same difficulty applied to those who were receiving from relatives and friends regular and guaranteed assistance, and we felt that the same also applied to those who may have been more fortunate earlier in life and have invested their savings or had been left some small income by their parents or others who were dead.

In all those cases the result was either to lower or destroy the old age pension. We came to the conclusion, not as sentimentalists, but as ordinary English people, with all the prejudices of our race, but with our ordinary rough common sense, that it is not in the interests of the country either that the individual thrift or co-operative thrift or communal thrift or benevolence of relatives or friends or bequests from parents to children or husbands to wives or investments or savings made in more prosperous times should be discouraged by the operation of this system of old age pensions. That being so, it was our duty, in the interest of the State of which we are servants, to consider what line could be drawn, if any line could be drawn, between those who previously were qualified for an old age pension and others to whom there applied the considerations of which the House was good enough to indicate its approval a moment ago. Could we limit it to cases of personal or co-operative thrift. That might meet the case of the thrifty artisan, it might partly meet the case of the trade unionist or the life-long contributor to friendly societies. But there are in this country, and there must ever be—there are in every country of the world, in countries governed as Spain is governed and as Russia is governed—there must always be a large number of the population who come under no such category. Trade unionism and friendly societies, however widely they extend their influence and membership, cannot cover the whole community of persons who need help when old age and feebleness come upon them. Therefore, while we were of opinion that the thrift, which is one of the best characteristics of trade unions and friendly societies, ought not to be discouraged, we also came to the conclusion that to draw a line which allowed these benefits and did not allow others would be unfair and unjust and would make the proposals inadequate.

Then we had to deal with the question of what I call private benevolence. Is it right that an old person, unable to earn a living wage, should be placed in a disadvantage because some other person, very often a person but little better off than the old person concerned, gives help in accordance with those humane instincts which really are among the qualities of human nature that we prize most and should do the most to conserve? Then we came to the third question, the question of casual labour. I know well that this may raise a thorny subject, but here again even the principles and practice and tendencies of trade unions of a somewhat extreme character cannot get away from one of the great facts of human nature, even if they want to do so. With old people it may make all the difference to continued health or growing decrepitude if they do what little casual work they can in good weather under ordinary circumstances. It is surely better both for them and for the State that any earnings, any pittance so acquired should not be taken to diminish the pension to which they would otherwise be entitled. So we were driven—we were not driven willingly, because every one of us knew how much easier it would be to persuade the Government or this House to support some moderate half-way measure than anything of universal application—we were driven unwillingly from one point to another in the direction which I am venturing to describe.

There was yet another category. If you are going to allow the old man or woman to count, not against old-age pensions, but irrespective of old-age pensions, what his friendly society may allow him, or what his friends may allow him, what about the position of inherited income in the case of persons who are still poor? Are there not in this country, and will there not ever be so long as it remains a civilised nation, hundreds and thousands of people, particularly women, who are living upon what their parents have saved for them? Accordingly, we felt that you could not on any ground of logic or good feeling or good sense draw a discriminating line between the categories I have mentioned and the category of invested income, which in most cases represented either the thrift of the individual at an early period of life or the thrift of those from whom he or she sprang. That brought us to the point that if old-age pensions were to be put on a permanent basis, they must be given to all persons whose income from these various sources was not large, and accordingly we were then brought up against a next proposition—why do you not recommend old-age pensions for all who do not pay Income Tax, on the ground that if they are not well enough off to pay Income Tax that in itself shows that they are not in a position at that time of life to take their full share of civic responsibility, and therefore are at a disadvantage?

This point, which has been recommended by many thinkers and many publicists for a number of years, we went into as carefully as we could, and we found—to my own personal regret and annoyance, because my own prejudices had been, drawn to that as the line to be drawn—that this was in practice unworkable. We were assured so by some of the greatest authorities in the Inland Revenue. We were assured so by persons who rightly had in view not sentimentalism or philanthropy, but were the hard-headed conservators of the public purse, knowing the details of the machinery of Inland Revenue. We were assured that this would be impossible, and that to create machinery which distinguished in that way, which ascertained who could not pay Income Tax and who could, from the point of view of seeing whether they should have old-age pensions or not, would in itself increase by £3,000,000 a year the cost of raising old-age pensions. Therefore, having been beaten from point to point, we then had to face the only remaining serious alternative, as to whether old-age pensions ought not to be made universal. We had to assist us at that stage of the argument two great considerations. One was that rightly or wrongly, in this country, what is called the dread of the poor law taint is a very powerful factor in the lives of those who are, or who think they are, in any risk of coming under the poor law.

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We came to the conclusion also—that being a very good thing, as my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) has said, and we were encouraged to preserve that good thing—that we should make recommendations that would clear old age pensions absolutely from any connection with the Poor Law or any analogous taint. The only way of doing that completely was to give them to everyone, and then it could not be a question of giving them some assistance from public funds which involved a state of dependence or inferiority. The high taxation of late years, the prospect that for many years to come Income Tax will certainly be a very considerable portion of a person's income, so far from being a strong argument against this, is really an argument in its favour. My right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) occasionally indulges in fanciful utterances, and professes to be 70 and upwards, and if for the moment I allow that fiction to pass as fact, it is for the purpose of making it the basis of the next argument I address to the House. If my right hon. Friend were over 70, and accordingly drew, automatically, or, as we suggest4 by going to ask for it, an old age pension of 10s. a week, we all know that part of it would go back to the State in Income Tax and Super-tax, so that it would only cost the State 5s. a week, and that 5s. a week would be a small acknowledgment to him of the large sums he has paid as an Income-Tax payer to his country. The House will see that the effect of making the old age pension universal is not as unequal or as indiscriminate, in the bad sense, as it may appear to be, because those who receive them when they are 70, having ample resources, do, in one way or another, largely return them to the State, and by that method, and by that method only, can you take this entirely out of the whole sphere of doles and relief and dependance, which must attach to anything by which the payments from the State are given to selected classes of the citizens. It was on those grounds—of course, at another time and in other places it could be enlarged upon, but I think I have already spoken longer than I ought to have done and I apologise—it was on those grounds that the majority of the Committee came to the conclusion that the only sound and permanent principle is that of the universal old age pension. While there still remains, and there always will remain, the question of age and the question of amount, at any rate, one of the three great categories of interest and controversy in old age pensions would be finally and permanently settled and removed from the arena of discussion and dispute. I say that the question of amount and of age would still remain open to those controversies, in which my right hon. Friend plays so distinguished a part. But as to the third point, namely, that of, universality, it would be a permanent solution of that great aspect of the question. It is, therefore, on that part of my right hon. Friend's Resolution which affirms this principle, he has the support, and is entitled to the support, of the majority of those Members of that Committee which, at any s rate, did try hard for many months to find what was the best for the country in this respect. But, of, course, there, is the other aspect to-day, and I confess I am sorry this question could not have been brought before the House in such a form as to get a decision of the House on the principle of universality, without complicating that decision with the question whether if we had universal pensions those should immediately be put into force, because, as the Committee said, financial considerations must depend, not only on the needs of old people, not only on the question of what is the true and best permanent system, but on what is the position of the Government and of the nation at the particular time when the reform is advocated. Therefore was it that I, for one, and my colleagues, I believe, were parties to the-partial legislation which the Government brought in at the conclusion of our work. It would be unfair and one-sided of ma if I did not frankly admit to the House-that one knows the financial position of the country to-day is not substantially better—in some ways it may even be worse—than it was when that Committee reported.

My right hon. Friend says, "Much worse." He is a Cassandra, and always takes the gloomy view. But, however that may be, one does realise that in this Motion to-night there are two issues, and on the second issue of immediacy there will be great difficulty for Members of the House to decide what is their duty. My duty to-night has been to try to explain to the House, as far as I can, what this particular Committee did, and why it did it. I appeal to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say no word which would commit the Government in any way against this, as I conceive it, the only sound principle. On the question of the moment and of the financial conditions in which this sound principle should be applied—for once applied, it remains permanent—that is a matter on which many Members—most Members, I hope—would be glad to hear what the Government consider, and, however much the comments and the advice of the Government upon that point may affect the Votes on the Motion or the Amendment, I desire to end, as I began, by thanking my right hon. Friend for bringing this question forward. It is a question which ought to be kept forward until it is finally solved in the direction in which I have ventured to recommend it to the House.

I hope the Government will not merely, as was suggested by some hon. Members, give a free hand to the House to-night, but I hope they will go further, and that they will accept this Motion as an instalment of justice. In 1919 the Government improved the position of the old age pensioner by increasing the amount from 5s. to 10s. a week, and at the same time increased the allowance of income from £28 to £49. That certainly was a step in the right direction, but yet the increase in the income did not meet the hardship of the people. There is a body of people to whom this limitation is a very great hardship, and that is railwaymen, who have been granted superannuation allowance, say, after 65 years of age, and a service of something like 40 years. The allowance in many cases does not exceed £60 a year, and yet that £60 a year is sufficient to deprive them of the right that they should have to the old age pension. Therefore I hope that this limitation will be removed, and speedily. When a Resolution was passed in this House some time ago urging the Government to grant some increase in the pensions of railway-men, it was pointed out that the saving to the State, in consequence of their disqualification for the old age pension, amounted to a considerable sum. That Resolution was passed by a unanimous House, and yet, up to the present time, not one penny has been granted by the Government in the relief of these people. These people are at the present time suffering terrible hardships, and if they were allowed to add the 10s. a week to their income it would be a considerable benefit to them. Therefore the only thing that we have to do to-day is to do away with the income qualification and to allow a universal or general old age pension to those who are entitled to it. I am a Member of the Committee who have to administer the Old Age Pensions Act in my district, and I could bring before you hundreds of cases of hardship, but I will not weary the House. I would strongly appeal to the Government, seeing they were so generous in 1919 in improving the position of these people and also improving the position of the poor blind people, to complete the good work by allowing people who were provident in their early days to obtain the full award of this pension. I shall vote for this Motion if it should go to a Division.

I have listened to the eloquent speech of the hon. and learned Member for Middleton (Sir R. Adkins), but what I did not hear him say was that he would go into the Lobby to vote for this Motion. He is sympathetic, but he is non-committal. I would like him to have said definitely whether he was prepared to go into the Lobby to vote for this Motion as presented to this House tonight. I have heard the hon. and learned Member on many other occasions. He is a valuable asset to any party, and I am sure he is as valuable an asset to the old age pensioner as he is to the Government of the day. We respect and admire his charm of manner, his persuasive eloquence, his keen analytical mind. His balancing powers are indeed a very great asset, but I am afraid he is paving the way to some refusal of this Motion. I want to speak, if I can, with some knowledge of the subject, because I have been chairman of an old age pensions committee since 1918, and I attended every meeting of that committee until I was elected to Parliament; and I want to speak also from the point of view of a prospective old age pensioner, because at 70 I shall certainly want my old age pension. I live amongst the class of people, and want to live amongst no other, that the old age pensioner comes from. With due regard for economy, I want to say there is no object the Government would be more justified in finding money for than for the object stated in the Motion before the House, and there is no object that would meet with greater approval from the nation. I have heard what was said about economy by the Mover and the Seconder of the Amendment. I hope their speeches will be well circulated in their constituencies. It is only those who come into daily contact with old age pensioners and who live their lives amongst old age pensioners who know eactly the position of things, and knowing that, they condemn not only the basis upon which the income of the pensioner is arrived at, but also the arbitrary, arrogant, and inquisitorial methods adopted by the pension officers in these cases—usually highly-paid young men, indispensable during the War. I remember the pension officer in the particular district where I was chairman of the committee. I offered to do his job if he would go out and fight, and do it for nothing. I thought his place should have been out there instead of harassing the poor people as he was doing.

I have always contended, and I am not a convert to this idea, for I have been preaching it for 20 years, that there should be pensions without regard to means. As the law stands, an applicant is penalised in many ways. Firstly, as has been eloquently stated by the right hon. Gentleman who moved this Motion, he is penalised for being thrifty, if he has made some provision for the evening of his days. He is penalised if he has good children who assist him with money or with food. I am going to give the House some instances that have come under my personal notice, and they are only two or three of many hundreds. He is penalised if he cultivates a small garden and grows vegetables; that is written down against him as part of his income, 6d. or 1s. a week; and if he keeps a few fowls, the income from the eggs which the fowls lay is reckoned against him. Hon. Members who talk about this from the point of view of theory know nothing whatever of the way this works out in practice. He is penalised if he has given his boy to his country. If a son has fallen in the fighting out there the pension that is given to his parents is used against them. They are penalised and refused the full pension owing to the fact that their boy has died for his country. They are even penalised if they are excused, on the ground of poverty, payment of their rates. It is reckoned against them as part of their income. Let me give a concrete instance of what happened in my own district prior to the 1919 Act. The income of a husband was 5s. a week pension from his employer, 4s. a week from his club-a total of 9s. His wife had 6s. a week pension in respect of the only boy they had who died out there fighting for his country. That made a total of 15s. a week. The law says that when a married couple are living together that income is divided between them, and their income is assessed in that way. So long as these two people were living together they were entitled to the full pension of 5s. a week, as it was then. The husband fell ill, and had to go to his brother's house to be nursed. The wife also fell ill, and she had to go to her daughter's, so the home was broken up, as the only boy was gone who could have kept it together. The pension of 5s. a week which the man had when living with his wife was reduced to 4s.; the wife's income was 6s., the pension is respect of her boy, which, on the face of it, entitled her to the full pension of 5s. The husband out of his 9s. a week sent his wife 4s. a week, and that was reckoned against him, and not only was it reckoned against him, but it was also reckoned against his wife as part of her income. It may be perfectly legal from the technical standpoint, but it is most unjust. This is only one of hundreds of cases which I could mention to the House, and no stronger argument could be adduced for getting rid of this means limit. At the very same committee meeting at which this case came up, we had before us the case of a married man with £800 in the bank which for the purpose of assessing income is capitalised at 5 per cent., representing an income of £40 a year between himself and his wife or £20 a year each. Full pension was granted to both of them. Is not that an anomaly? I know it has been rectified to some extent under the 1919 Act.

I will quote another instance, because I believe it is much better to put before the House concrete cases than to generalise upon these points. A pensioner can claim full pension if his income does not exceed £26 a year, which is approximately 10s. a week. Take the case of a widow in my own district, who is practically a cripple, and who is receiving 8s. per week parish relief. She applies for her pension at the age of 70; she has two sons and one daughter living in the village. The two sons are labourers, and the daughter's husband is a labourer, none of them earning very high wages. One of the sons has six children, the other seven, and the daughter three. Occa- sionally they sent to this woman a loaf, a parcel of tea, some coal, or sometimes a shilling. When the pension officer comes to inquire into the woman's application he asks her how much do the sons and daughter send to her, and she explains the nature of the occasional relief which she gets from them. He says, "Oh we will assess that at 2s. 6d. a week," and the poor old woman, terrorised—as they all are—by the visit of the pensions offer, agrees to that, although the value of the things actually received by her probably would not come to anything like it. That is added to her parish relief of 8s. a week, so that her income is assessed at 10s. 6d. a week, which is 5d. too much to entitle her to receive the full pension. Instances like that burn them selves into one's soul when one has had much to do with the administration of the Old Age Pensions Act as I have had. In this particular case immediately the woman applied for the pension the parish relief was stopped, and for a fortnight she had not a penny in the house. She came to me to know how she was going to live until the pension came.

Let us refer to the scale of incomes and pensions. Under the 1908 Regulations the pension graduated by Is. a week. Some extraordinary genius in the Treasury or somewhere else has altered that and under the existing Regulation the pension is reduced or increased by 2s. a Week. A pension will be reduced from 10s. to 8s., but there is no intervening 9s. Consequently a pensioner with 10s. 2d. a week is entitled to only 8s. a week old-age pension, while a pensioner with 12s. is entitled to just the same amount. The first mentioned, in my opinion, should at any rate he allowed 9s. a week. It should be graduated by 1s. a week instead of 2s.

I will mention something that can be altered, and I hope those responsible for the administration of the Act will alter it, as those who have been administering the Act locally know the great difficulty that I am going to express. The pensions committee is under the Ministry of Health; the pensions officer is the Excise officer and responsible to the Inland Revenue. Consequently he can, and he does very often, flout the pensions committee altogether and refuse to attend any of their meetings. At any rate, there should not be dual control; there should be one authority to deal with the whole matter. These are a few of the thousands of cases that have come under my notice, and I want to say this, even if only for the encouragement of the pensions committees. In my pensions committee any case of a pension that is refused by the pensions officer is always adjourned and personally investigated by one of the members of the committee. Many pensions committees are too ready to accept the opinion of the pensions officer without taking any steps whatever to prove it. Only this morning I had a letter from my division. Here are a poor old woman and her husband, just arrived at 70 years of age; lost their only boy; 12s. 6d. a week pension up to a fortnight ago, with 20 per cent. bonus. The old lady gets her 10s. pension about three weeks ago. Last week a letter was sent to her saying that in consequence of her improved circumstances her Army pension is to be reduced from 12s. 6d., plus 20 per cent., to 8s. 5d. per week. It may not be old-age pensions, but it shows that the system is all wrong, and what a tragedy it all is when one can bring forward cases like this. I very heartily support the Motion which has been brought before us to-night. There is no object that is more deserving than this; there is no money that could be expended that would get the backing of the nation more than this would. I hope it will go to a Division, but I am afraid there may be some effort to prevent that. It is a reform that is badly needed; economy should not be considered when the lives of old people are at stake. When I hear the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment, who, I will venture to say, know very little or nothing of the lives of old-age pensioners and the class of people to which they belong, talk as they talked to-night, I want to say to them that they know very little about the subject from a real, practical standpoint. I hope the Government on this occasion will allow a free vote of the House, and, if so, I am sure that the intense human feeling that animates the breast of most of us will show itself to-night, and that we shall give a big majority for the Motion.

I want to touch very briefly on two matters connected with this subject. An argument used by the Mover of the Amendment was that certain pre-War pensioners had a prior claim to these old age pensioners, and the right hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. G. Barnes) said they had no prior claim. I would point out to him that, as a matter of fact, some of these pre-War pensioners have entirely a prior claim.

I refer to the old soldier. He is in an impossible position at the present moment. I and other hon. Members of the House have been pressing his claims for many a day. The old soldier, probably after spending from 20 to 40 years in India, is thrown upon the labour market unskilled. It has been impossible for him to earn sufficient to put by anything all his life. When he reaches the age of 60 he is often too old to work on account of his lengthy service, and he is only getting now between 7s. and 10s. per week. I desire, therefore, to bring to the attention of the House the prior claim of that class of pre-War pensioner.

The only other matter to which I desire to draw attention is the administration of the Old Age Pensions Act. I have had a number of cases brought to my attention where there was an extraordinary lack of generosity in administering the Act. In many cases—and I sent one to the Treasury only last week—the man who is on the border line of the means limit has been passed by the local pensions committee for an old age pension and, on appeal, has been turned down by the local pensions officer. That has happened not once, or twice, but oftener. It is certainly extremely desirable that these cases should be treated with greater generosity. I should like to draw the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to these hard cases, and ask if more generosity cannot be shown to those on the border line.

It is very rarely that I intervene in Debates in this House, but I do think the House will do itself an injustice if it allows the country to think that the only Members who have any sympathy with the aged poor are those sitting on the Labour Benches. To my mind the Unionists, the Coalition Liberals, yes, and the Independent Liberals too, have at least the same desire to show sympathy to the old people of this country as any hon. Member sitting above the Gangway. I feel to-night a very peculiar thrill to find myself in agreement, for once, at any rate, with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Widnes (Mr. Henderson). He has done a very good service in bringing this Motion before the House for discussion. Now that we have discussed it for almost the whole time allowed, may I plead with the House that this Motion needs something more than discussion; it needs to be accepted by the House? Although the Mover of the Amendment, like ourselves, expressed sympathy with the poor, I would remind him, and the House, that an ounce of help is worth a ton of sympathy.

In the very troublous times through which we are passing I think we do need an increased supply of good citizens in this country. I believe we have no better citizens than those old people who have been thrifty during the whole of their lives, and have saved enough, either to prevent them having an old age pension, or sufficient to diminish the amount to which they are entitled. I feel certain that the passing of this Motion would help the aged poor. I believe, to begin with, that the money would of itself no doubt be of some value to them. But I support the Resolution for another reason, that I think the sweeping away of the inquiries which are now made would do almost as much good as granting the money. I wish to save these old people from the Nosey Parker inquiries which, I believe, every respectable working man and woman resents most intensely. It is very distasteful to them to have to answer all the inquiries that are put forward. It has been stated to-night that the cost of passing this Motion would be no less than £13,000,000. I believe that that figure has been carefully prepared, but if we deduct the cost of officialism in the present administration of pensions and remember also that many of the people who would become eligible would have to pay income tax if they exceeded the amount, that would greatly reduce the cost. It has been said that the time to do this is very inopportune. Two or three weeks ago I should have said the same thing, but when one walks up and down Whitehall, or indeed any street in the country, one sees posters saying that the Government can afford to give £10,000,000 to able-bodied working men, I cannot think that the time is altogether inopportune.

The Press told us the other day that the Government have so much money that they propose to incur in regard to Members of Parliament an absolutely needless expense at a most inopportune moment. There will be no one in any part of the House who will dare to say that 10s. a week is sufficient for an old person to carry on at a time when coal is costing £3 a ton. These old people are not very hale and strong, and they need a large supply of coals to warm their homes, and they must be feeling very bitterly now the increased cost of living. If we all agree that there really is need for this money, how can we respond to the appeal of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Moss Side (Lieut.-Colonel Hurst) and say to those old people, "Yes, we sympathise with you, but it is inopportune now to do anything for you, but at a later date we will grant you the money"?

Near your own constituency, Mr. Speaker, there used to be a public-house—I am glad the charming Member for Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) is not here as she might think it wrong to quote anything about a public-house—but there is a public-house at Denholme Gate which used to have a sign exhibited: "Good Ale for Nothing To-morrow." Some people were foolish enough to come there to have a cheap drink only to find that the sign was still hanging there. I do not think that invitation is so foolish a thing as to tell people of 75 years of age that in a few more years, probably after you are dead, your hardships will be removed. This is a case where the aged poor need assistance now, and I intend to support the Motion which has been proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Widnes.

The subject which has been introduced to-night by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Henderson) is one in which all parties in the House are interested. I do not think that there is any section of the House that can claim a monopoly of interest in this question. It is one that touches vitally the condition of a large and deserving body of our people, and there can be no question that everyone would desire to do the utmost that is possible for people who, in their old age, find themselves, through no fault of their own, without adequate means of subsistence. I do not think that anybody could say that the present Government has been deaf to the calls of these people. It must be well within the recollection of the House that, something less than 18 months ago, we dealt with this great question. We passed, just before Christmas, 1919, with a rapidity almost unequalled, a Measure intended to bring some comfort to the old people of this country at that particular time. We increased the number of people who were entitled to this relief by 120,000, and we widened the whole scope of the old age pension scheme. Whereas, previously, people were entitled only to the fullest measure of the relief whose income did not exceed £21 10s., we increased that limit to £26 5s., and we doubled the amount of the pension. We added to the burdens of the State, by the Measure that we then passed, a sum of £10,000,000, thus increasing the amount which has to be found each year to something over £26,000,000 for this purpose alone. Now it is asked that we should increase that sum, at this particular point of time, by a further amount of £15,000,000, that being the sum required.

I do not for a moment dispute the kind of case that can be brought for a proposal of this kind. The right hon. Gentleman put his case most moderately. He did not exaggerate by a hair's breadth the class of cases in which hardship is suffered, and you could produce, undoubtedly, very many hard cases under the operation of the Old Age Pension Acts as at present constituted. I am bound to say that you cannot frame any measure under which you would not have hard cases, because every measure must necessarily make a discrimination at some point, and the person immediately over the line will be a hard case. But I am not quite prepared to admit that the cases are rendered hard in some of the circumstances to which my right hon. Friend referred. For example, I think that it has proved to be an error that the present system of Old Age Pension relief has discouraged thrift. That statement has often been made, but I think that those who sat on the Old Age Pensions Committee came to a different conclusion. Very valuable evidence was given by the hon. Gentleman the Secretary of the Parliamentary Committee of the Trade Union Congress, and in the course of his evidence he said this: It was proved in evidence to the satisfaction of every member of the Committee that thrift was in no way discouraged by the present administration of the Old Age Pensions Act. There is one other matter to which I feel bound to refer—

May I say that I think the last statement of the right hon. Gentleman is not quite correct. What he quoted a moment ago is perfectly true, but the opinion of the majority of the Committee undoubtedly was that old-age pensions, at the then existing rate, and under the then existing conditions, did operate prejudicially to thrift, though in Certain cases of large unions, for instance, that was not apparent.

I gladly accept the correction of my hon. Friend, who is familiar with the whole matter, but it is certainly true that, so far as those people are concerned who are connected with trade unions and friendly societies, evidence to the opposite effect was given, and, I think, was generally accepted. The other matter to which I wish to draw attention is this: It was said, and it has been repeated to-night, that the administration of the Act is a source of very great irritation and that the operation of it is badly conducted by the pension officers. Of course, any sort of investigation is always irritating to every class of person, even the most amiable, and I have no doubt there is irritation by the mere fact that peoples' affairs have to be investigated. But we ought to be fair to the pensions officers. Their whole conduct was very carefully investigated by the Committee to which I have referred and both the majority and the minority gave testimony to the fact that no evidence had been produced which would satisfy them that these pensions officers conducted their business in any irritating fashion or did more than it was their duty to do, and we are bound to say as much as that for the people who have a very disagreeable duty to perform.

I turn to some types of evil to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. I agree that the position of a person who has saved money either through thrift or through contribution to a trade union benefit society is anomalous under the present old-age pensions measure. I agree that it is a hardship that such savings and contributions should be taken into calculation in dealing with the old-age pension. I agree, also, that there are cases in which the benevolence of friends makes it appear harsh that the old-age pension should be to any extent decreased in cases where people are in need of as much help as they can get. But unfortunately the Committee that dealt with this matter came to the conclusion that there was no line upon which you could discriminate properly so as to give special consideration to these cases. I think that is a great misfortune. I am not prepared to agree that no line of discrimination can be found. I should prefer to think that it does not pass the wit of man to find some way in which these grievances can be mitigated and I do not despair that such a means will be found, but I am faced with the fact that a very capable Committee which has gone into the matter has decided to the contrary, and therefore I am not entitled to proceed to any executive operation until I am able to refute the judgment at which they have unanimously arrived. At present, therefore, I am not in a position to say that any direct action can be taken to get rid of these anomalies which undoubtedly give rise in many cases to hardship. My right hon. Friend's Motion does not deal merely with such cases. His whole speech dealt with hard cases, but his Motion goes very much further. His Motion is that every person at the age of 70, whether rich or poor, shall obtain an old age pension.

While on the grounds of logic, perhaps, something might be said for that course, I am certain that it would unnecessarily add a burden to the finances of the State which the country is unable to bear at the present time. Moreover, as soon as you attempted to put such a plan in operation you would find that it would break down for the reason that complaint would be made by the poorer recipients of the relief that people of wealth were obtaining money which they did not require, and they would immediately demand that instead of the money being so applied it should be used to increase the pensions of which they so much stood in need. I am not giving that simply upon my own view, though by one's unaided reason one might arrive at such a conclusion. I find that seven members of the Committee—there were 17 members, and I think it was a Majority Report of 10 to 7 that decided in favour of the universal pension—arrived at this conclusion:

"We cannot suppose that while the financial situation of the country compels the restriction of the pension system, on both of these points the pressure for further change will be removed by the grant of a pension to all. On the contrary, in our opinion the establishment of universal pensions would immediately give rise to a further agitation. We believe that to pay pension at the same rate to rich and poor alike would inevitably cause deep dissatisfaction in the minds of the poorer classes. Naturally enough, they would consider it unjust that though in want they should only receive the same pension as that paid to a person in good and affluent circumstances. This in turn would lead to a demand for increased pensions for the poor, and consequently for the restoration of the means limit in a slightly different form, but accompanied by a large additional charge for pensions."

Will the right hon. Gentleman say that five of the seven were civil servants, entitled to unrestricted pensions?

I do not know whether that is so. I do not think my right hon. Friend is really suggesting that the Members who signed the minority report were influenced by personal considerations. I hope he does not mean that. It is plain that what is involved in my right hon. Friend's Motion covers a very much wider ground than the particular cases of hardship or grievance upon which he founded his appeal. It involves a grant of money from the State to a considerable body of people who do not require it, and who do not desire it. It is an absolutely un-discriminating Resolution. It involves a sum of money which I am sure the State at the present time cannot afford to pay. It is all very well to say, as the hon. Member who made a very witty speech (Mr. Clough) said, that the State is giving a grant for other purposes. I do not know whether he suggests, or whether my hon. Friends opposite suggest, that we ought to withdraw the proposed grant to meet the present exigencies of the mining industry, in order to make the sum available for old age pensioners.

If that is put as a practical proposition I think you would take a very different view. However that may be, I would remind hon. Members that there is no subject on which more insistence has been brought to bear than that of economy. I agree with my right hon. Friend that you can economise unwisely and that proper expenditure is often the best kind of economy, but there is a point at which economy becomes inevitable, and that is when you cannot find the money to pay. At the time when this matter was considered previously, the condition of this country from the financial point of view was very much easier than it is now. The burdens of the State are very greatly increased, the obligations which it has to meet are more formidable at the present time than they have hitherto been, and they will be still more formidable next year. Our resources, on the other hand—and we must face this fact—will be less. Accordingly, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, I think I should be very unwise if I suggested to the House that we should to-day enter upon the expenditure which this Resolution involves. I would remind my right hon. Friend and those who sit opposite of this consideration. We can only grant sums of money at this time if we either impose fresh taxation or else borrow. Whichever of these forms our operation takes, it is quite certain that it will lead to a rise in the cost of living. There is nothing, as I take it, that hits the aged poor more hardly than a rise in the cost of living. It is my confident belief that if ever this boon is to be granted it will be most easily achieved by really keeping well within the limit of our powers at the present time and putting ourselves in a position to expend more money in the future. I am accordingly of opinion that this Resolution should not at this time be supported by this House. The Amendment expresses both the consideration which ought to be given to the case and the hardships which exist, and also the need for urgent economy at the present time, and I shall support it.

The speech of the Chairman of the Committee which considered this question was very instructive. We were told of the many reasons which brought that Committee to the decision to which it eventually came. We were told that the decision. was not influenced in any way by the consideration of finance, but that the Committee reached its conclusion on the merits of the scheme, and that it left it to the Treasury to consider whether or not the country could afford the scheme. We have since then listened to a speech by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has told us that in his opinion the country cannot at the present time afford the expenditure, and is unable to raise the money in taxation which will be needed. We have been told by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Henderson) that the cost of this proposal would be £13,000,000, and we now learn that it would be £15,000,000. Therefore if this Resolution were passed and the Government took steps to give effect to it, we should have to face an extra annual expenditure of £15,000,000, which would have to be raised by extra taxation. Can the country afford to have this extra expenditure placed upon it at present? The proposer argued that the Government should practise economy in other directions in order to meet this expenditure. I agree that the Government should economise in many ways. If it were in order, I

could mention various things on which they could economise, but the money so saved should go in relief of the taxpayer and not go to swell expenditure in other directions. The Mover of the Resolution has urged economy, for instance, in Mesopotamia. I have urged exactly the same thing, but the right hon. Gentleman urges that a great part of the money so saved should be spent in this direction. If, however, we allow this Resolution to be passed, we should have to consider many other Resolutions as to other people who have grievances and very real grievances which will have to be remedied in the same way. I believe with the mover of the Amendment that this is not an opportune time for a Resolution of this sort. We are to-day in the midst of one of the gravest crises in our industrial history, and at this time, when we are fighting in order to avoid a subsidy to the coal owners—

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The House divided: Ayes, 116; Noes, 64

Division No. 105.]

AYES.

[11.0 p.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Greig, Colonel James William

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

Grundy, T. W.

Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Barnes Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Hartshorn, Vernon

Remer, J. R.

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Hayday, Arthur

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hayward, Evan

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Hills, Major John Waller

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Hinds, John

Robertson, John

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Hirst, G. H.

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Briant, Frank

Hogge, James Myles

Rodger, A. K.

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Hood, Joseph

Rose, Frank H.

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Bruton, Sir James

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Sexton, James

Cape, Thomas

Irving, Dan

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Jephcott, A. R.

Simm, M. T.

Clough, Robert

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Johnstone, Joseph

Spencer, George A.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Spoor, B. G.

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Sugden, W. H.

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Kennedy, Thomas

Swan, J. E.

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Lawson, John James

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Lort-Williams, J.

Townley, Maximilian G.

Edgar, Clifford B.

Lunn, William

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Watson, Captain John Bertrand

Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath)

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Wignall, James

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Mason, Robert

Willey, Lieut-Colonel F. V.

Evans, Ernest

Matthews, David

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

France, Gerald Ashburner

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

Galbraith, Samuel

Morris, Richard

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Gillis, William

Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

Wintringham, Thomas

Glanville, Harold James

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Myers, Thomas

Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Green, Albert (Derby)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. G. Thorne.

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

NOES.

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Hailwood, Augustine

Rankin, Captain James Stuart

Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

Atkey, A. R.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Remnant, Sir James

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Bigland, Alfred

Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Johnson, Sir Stanley

Stewart, Gershom

Brassey, H. L. C.

Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Brown, Major D. C.

Lindsay, William Arthur

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Lloyd, George Butler

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

Cautley, Henry Strother

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

Cope, Major William

Murchison, C. K.

Wise, Frederick

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Nail, Major Joseph

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Woolcock, William James U.

Falcon, Captain Michael

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Perkins, Walter Frank

Forestier-Walker, L.

Perring, William George

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Sir F. Banbury and Major Morrison-Bell.

Goff, Sir R. Park

Polson, Sir Thomas A.

Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 123; Noes, 135.

Division No. 106.]

AYES.

[11.10 p.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

Myers, Thomas

Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent

Green, Albert (Derby)

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Barker, Major Robert H.

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Grundy, T. W.

Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

Barnes Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)

Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor (Barnstaple)

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Hartshorn, Vernon

Remer, J. R.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hayday, Arthur

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Hayward, Evan

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Hills, Major John Waller

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Hinds, John

Robertson, John

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Hirst, G. H.

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Briant, Frank

Hogge, James Myles

Rodger, A. K.

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Hood, Joseph

Rose, Frank H.

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Bruton, Sir James

Irving, Dan

Sexton, James

Cape, Thomas

Jephcott, A. R.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Simm, M. T.

Clough, Robert

Johnson, Sir Stanley

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Johnstone, Joseph

Spencer, George A.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Spoor, B. G.

Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Kennedy, Thomas

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Swan, J. E.

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Kidd, James

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Kiley, James Daniel

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Doyle, N. Grattan

Lawson, John James

Wallace, J.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lort-Williams, J.

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Watson, Captain John Bertrand

Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath)

Lunn, William

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Wignall, James

Evans, Ernest

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Wilson, James (Dudley)

France, Gerald Ashburner

Mason, Robert

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbrdge)

Galbraith, Samuel

Matthews, David

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Ganzoni, Sir John

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Wintringham, Thomas

Gillis, William

Morris, Richard

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Glanville, Harold James

Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Goff, Sir R. Park

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. G. Thorne.

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

NOES.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Barnston, Major Harry

Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Armitage, Robert

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

Barlow, Sir Montague

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Atkey, A. R.

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Brassey, H. L. C.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Briggs, Harold

Hopkins, John W. W.

Rankin, Captain James Stuart

Brown, Major D. C.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

Remnant, Sir James

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Butcher, Sir John George

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Cautley, Henry Strother

Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A.(Birm., W.)

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Stanier, Captain Sir Beville

Coats, Sir Stuart

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Steel, Major S. Strang

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Lindsay, William Arthur

Stewart, Gershom

Cope, Major William

Lloyd, George Butler

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Sugden, W. H.

Dean, Commander P. T.

Lorden, John William

Sutherland, Sir William

Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry

M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Edgar, Clifford B.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Townley, Maximilian G.

Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.)

Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Molson, Major John Elsdale

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Falcon, Captain Michael

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

Fell, Sir Arthur

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

Whitla, Sir William

Forrest, Walter

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Murchison, C. k.

Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Nall, Major Joseph

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Neal, Arthur

Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Gould, James C.

Nield, Sir Herbert

Winterton, Earl

Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)

Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

Wise, Frederick

Greig, Colonel James William

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Gretton, Colonel John

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Woolcock, William James U.

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E.

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Hailwood, Augustine

Perkins, Walter Frank

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Perring, William George

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Polson, Sir Thomas A.

Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

It being after Eleven of the clock, and objection being taken to further Proceeding, the Debate stood adjourned.

Ways and Means

Again considered in Committee.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

Postponed Proceeding resumed on Amendment to Question:

"That there shall be charged on any of the following articles imported into Great Britain or Ireland, in addition to any other duties of customs chargeable thereon, a customs duty of an amount equal to 33⅓ per cent. of the value of the article, that is to say:—

Articles of any class or description in respect of which an order by the Board of Trade has been made under any Act of the present Session for giving effect to this Resolution, if manufactured in whole or in part in any of the countries specified in the Order, or deemed to be so manufactured.

Any such Order as aforesaid may be, made on the ground that articles of the class or description in question are being sold or offered for sale in the United Kingdom—

( a ) At prices below the cost of production thereof; or

( b ) At prices which, by reason of depreciation in the value in relation to sterling of the currency of the country in which the goods are manufactured, are below the prices at which similar goods can be profitably manufactured in the United Kingdom,

and that by reason thereof employment in any industry in the United Kingdom is being or is likely to be seriously affected.

For the purposes of this Resolution, "cost of production" in relation to goods of any class or description means the current sterling equivalent of—

( a ) The wholesale price at the works charged for goods of the class or description for consumption in the country of manufacture; or

( b ) If no such goods are sold for consumption in that country, the price which, having regard to the prices charged for goods as near as may he similar when so sold or when sold for exportation to other countries, would be so charged if the goods were sold in that country."

Which Amendment was, after the word "articles" ["any of the following articles imported"], to insert the words "not being food, raw materials, or semi-manufactured articles."—[ Mr. Lyle-Samuel. ]

Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

I have to continue my remarks on the Amendment that food, raw material, and semi-manufactured goods should be excluded from these Financial Resolutions, and I hope to convert hon. Members to that point of view. When the President of the Board of Trade introduced these Resolutions on Monday last, he led us to understand that the Bill to be founded upon them would exclude food from these taxes, but I think I am right in saying that the financial Resolution should be drawn wider than the Bill, and therefore I think it behoves the Government to accept this Amendment as regards food at any rate. As the Bill may be long delayed in its introduction and in its passing into law, I think it will be convenient if these words are inserted. In particular we should press for the meaning of food if it is included into this Resolution. I will only cite the cases of the ordinary food that comes in in a natural form and the tinned foods that come in in great quantities from America and the Argentine and might by certain learned judges be described as manufactured goods. There is a similar class of foods such as the edible oils or the seeds from which edible oils are, crushed, which might be admitted free, whereas the margarine, the manufactured product, might be taxed. We are entitled to a plain statement of policy from the Government.

With regard to raw materials generally, we are entitled to press for some further explanation. The Prime Minister, in describing recently the payments that he hoped to receive from Germany, cited timber as a possible commodity that might be brought in under the reparations. I take it that sawn logs would he admitted by everyone, even the sawyers, to be raw material.

The hon. Member for St. Pancras, who is interested in the building trade, objects even to that. What would he say to ply-wood, a very important raw material for the whole of the cabinet making and motor car industries? Is ply-wood a raw material, or is it the manufactured article? I quote that to allow the right hon. Gentleman to give us some real definition of the sort of articles that he considers should come within the scope of these Resolutions, I respectfully submit that it is no use Members of the Government telling us to wait till the Bill is before us. There are dozens of merchants and dealers and manufacturers who want to know where they stand at the present time. This state of uncertainty is not amongst the least of their present-day difficulties. I mention these examples because I believe it is the intention of the Government really to tax manufactured articles coming in under the process of dumping so-called, or from countries where the exchange is in favour of the manufactures of those countries. I presume they want still further to bestow cuffs and buffets on poor Lazarus lying at the gate of the wealthy Dives of Great Britain. These poor countries whose marks, or kroner, or lire, or francs, are anything to the pound, here to their classes and especially those with fixed incomes who are hard put to to live, and they are still further to be pressed down into the abyss by the hard-hearted wealthy dives of this country! There is the material appeal in this matter—that of profits, and trade, and employment, and regular wages—quite legitimate. But there is another aspect. We have just had a very interesting discussion on the old age pensioners of the country. All who spoke bore tribute to the difficult position in which many of these old soldiers of industry found themselves.

I admire the ingenuity of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, but I do not see what his remarks have to do with this question, which is one of raw material.

I was hoping to show that we were now pressing down still further the hard lot of the old age pensioner by putting up prices. But if it is outside the scope of the Amendment I will not pursue it further. I do say that these Financial Resolutions ought to be kept really as narrow as possible. I know the Bill is to be narrower, but we to-day want to put as few obstacles as possible in the way of our trade. Merchants here and in neighbouring countries, and our customers abroad, do not know what is going to be taxed in future and what is not. Therefore, I support the Amendment of the hon. Member (Mr. Lyle-Samuel) because it will, at any rate, reduce the obstacles to some small extent. In this conclusion I have powerful support in the Government—no less a support than the Prime Minister himself. In this respect I would like to quote, the remarks of the Prime Minister in a recent debate. He was referring to the dreadful spectacle in Europe of the new secession States setting up trade barriers between neighbouring countries, and he said:

"They do it with respect to raw materials and food stuffs just as much as manufactured goods."

The Czecho-Slovaks cut off the sugar supply to Austria, and the Prime Minister said:

"There is an aggressive, immoderate, greedy nationalisation which is finding expression in another way. We have got it in France and in the United States. They say 'we must build great walls all round and never give a cup to your neighbour,' and I say that Czecho-Slovakia has got it and Poland. They say 'we will look after our own country,' forgetting that their country is independent and that commerce is international."

I dare say that a case might be made out for keeping out some of these articles, but I ask the Government not to interfere with raw materials upon which we depend to work up into manufactured goods to send all over the world. We do not yet know whether we are going to keep out wood pulp coming from our colonies, or whether the Dominions are going to be included in these reckless resolutions. In this way we are setting an extremely bad example to those small States with their absurd jealousies at the very moment when we want to encourage the countries of Europe to throw down their trade barriers and exchange their raw materials. The Government admit that their peace treaties have cut across the great trade routes of Europe and this is the moment when they decide to bring forward these Resolutions. For these reasons I appeal to the Government to insert these words. I feel sure that the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. G. Terrell), who represents a large body of the manufacturers of this country, will be the first to support us in asking that the raw material of their manufactures shall have a free entry into this country.

I was very much surprised to hear the noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) state that 39 countries represented on the League of Nations, had voted for free trade with all countries. The curious thing about that statement is that out of those 39 nations there is not one which is a free trade country. The hon. and gallant Member opposite (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) began his very interesting argument about the trade in gold-tipped cigarettes with the Dutch East Indies. As I am not quite sure yet how to vote on this Amendment, owing to the way in which one has been shaken by the arguments of the hon. and, gallant Member, I should like to ask him whether he can give the Committee any proof of his statement that our trade in gold-tipped cigarettes with the Dutch East Indies amounted to hundreds of thousands of pounds per annum.

I will produce the gentleman who gave me the information—I have not the documents with me—and the cigarettes!

It has been suggested that the main motive for these Resolutions is that of employment in this country, and I think it desirable that we should examine the position from, the point of view of the various interests concerned, to see what is going to be the effect of the exclusion of these articles, particularly as regards semi-manufactured goods. Previous speakers have laid stress upon raw materials and food, but if you exclude, as is suggested, semi-manufactured goods, you are not really improving the trading conditions of our manufacturers or the condition of employment at home. The question is, what is going to be the ultimate destination of these half-manufactured products which you exclude? Surely it must be obvious that, if our doors are closed against them by the duties suggested, we shall still have to face the competition of these goods in our neutral markets. In my own district, we import large quantities of tin bars and steel billets, and the manufacture of these into sheets, wire or rods gives employment to infinitely more men than the manufacture of the half-finished products themselves; so that even works which are themselves self-contained and can manufacture these billets themselves prefer to buy from abroad these goods, which will be excluded under this measure, and to employ their labour in making the more highly-finished products. By so doing they can give employment to more men and can make bigger profits for themselves. Surely it is a foolish and short-sighted policy to seek to exclude semi-manufactured goods, the production of which employs a comparatively small number of men, when you are closing the door to the manufacture of the more highly-finished goods which provide infinitely greater employment.

If you exclude these half-finished products, it does not mean that you can yourselves use your own billets or bars, because the price you would have to pay for them in your own market is such that the wire, angles and shapes made from them would cost so much that you could not compete in the world's markets against the cheaper goods that you exclude. Therefore, the practical experience of manufacturers is that it is a foolish and short-sighted policy to refuse goods, whether half-manufactured or raw material, which, if you do not take them, will meet you in competition elsewhere. It is far better that we should have the advantage of these cheaper goods, in order that we may compete with their products in the markets of the world. It is suggested that we are the principal buyers of commodities at the present time, and that the condition of Europe and other countries is such that there is no demand except in our own country. I had an argument with a friendly opponent at lunch to-day—an honoured and respected member of this House. He assured me that we are the only buyers, that the trade returns for last year were such that practically no country was importing goods and that if we exclude these foreign goods from Germany, Belgium or elsewhere, we shall not have to face competition, because there was no other market for them. In 1920 the imports of world trade, according to the monthly returns of trade and commerce published by the Board of Trade, amounted to £5,000,000,000, and of that our own imports only amounted to £1,700,000,000, so that there was a tremendous world trade available. If we do not take advantage of these cheaper goods, the rest of the world, our competitors, will take advantage of them, and as a manufacturing nation we shall be excluded from world markets. It will not meet the position of unemployment, and it will not bring trade to this country to raise prices in the way suggested by these Resolutions. The result will be either that goods will come in at a higher price, and handicap us in the world competition, or they will not come in at all, and so we shall not have the advantage of these cheaper goods for our trade. We want to look at the matter purely from a business point of view, and not from a purely doctrinaire point of view. The bitter experience of other nations will show us that we who are the manufacturers of the world, depending upon world markets, cannot afford to shut and bar the door against the cheaper products which others will get.

I should like some explanation of what is raw material. The President of the Board of Trade, in moving the Resolution, said that raw material was to be excluded from the Resolution we are now discussing; but when we asked him what raw material was he would not expand in that direction. We asked the Minister of Health the same question, and he likewise ran away. I have received a letter this afternoon from a gentleman interested in the shipbuilding industry, and he said he hoped I would

"strongly oppose the putting on of tariffs such as are proposed by the so-called Anti-Dumping Bill, on such articles as steel plates which are raw material of the shipbuilding industry."

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether or not steel plates are raw material? Under this Resolution steel plates might be in certain instances subject to 33⅓ per cent. duty. Can steel plates be included in this Resolution as raw material or can they not?

I will gladly do my best to deal with the various points raised in the discussion on this Amendment, which, I admit, is an Amendment of substance and raises several important points of principle. Perhaps I might relieve the mind of the hon. and. gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) by telling him that in the case of gold-tipped cigarette papers his friend will be able to import that paper without any fear of anything that this Bill can do, because they seem to be manufactured exclusively in Germany, and there is, therefore, no possibility of importing them into this country in such a way as to cause unemployment, which is an essential object of a duty being put on any goods that may come into this country. In respect to the argument about the old age pensioners, so far from it being our desire to harden the lot of the old age pensioner our desire is to see that the old age pensioner's son shall not be thrown out of work. So far as the schedule is concerned, food is specifically and categorically excluded. When we use the word "food" by itself it is in the widest and most liberal interpretation. If you attempt to narrow the word by trying to schedule what is included as food, you might very easily leave out articles that should come in. Food is food in any and every form. With regard to raw materials I remember what I said in the first day's debate, and I suggest, and I think most hon. Members will agree with me, that it is as impossible to define in words a semi-manufactured article as it is to define raw material. The words we use in the Bill are "goods of any class or description, manufactured." That is very comprehensive and I think very easy to be understood. It is not our intention to delay the introduction of the Bill. When the hon. and gallant Member for Hull spoke as if the Bill might be a long time before it makes its appearance the wish was father to the thought. It is my intention to present the Bill for the delectation of the House. [Hon. Members: "Delectation!"] Yes, the delectation of the House at the earliest moment, if hon. Members will allow me to have the Report stage of the Resolutions. When the Bill has been introduced we hope to get forward with it, and no doubt it will lead to many interesting debates.

There are differences of opinion in regard to the case which the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson) presented. I am very familiar with the side he has put, but in most of these trade questions there is another side. I do not know whether I am on controversial ground when I say that before the war there was a good deal of dumping in the articles which he specified. I see that he agrees. The result of that was twofold. What he said about the employment of these particular articles for further processes of manufacture was correct. There is no doubt that to a considerable extent many people were able to benefit by the use of these articles.

But, on the other hand, I do not think he would deny that the other result was that the number of plants in this country that were capable of producing large quantities of steel at low prices, owing to the works being large and up-to-date, was much smaller than it would have been had those particular kinds of steel continued to be manufactured in this country and had the plants grown with the times. The result of that was that when the war broke out one of the first things that the Government did was to devote its attention to the production of steel in this country, and millions of money have been spent in laying out plants for this very purpose. Works had to be constructed, and were actually being constructed right up to the end of the war. The result, of course, of having these plants put down in a time of great stress and of high prices was that a great deal more money was spent in this particular direction than would have been had the work been done in time of peace. These plants are there now and there is no question, to my mind, that, in ordinary times—by which I mean when the trade of the world has once more settled down, and normal conditions are reached, which we hope will be before the date specified in these resolutions—in this country steel can be produced to compete with that arriving from any country in this world, I have no doubt at all about that.

I would point out once more that this suggested method of dealing with the so-called "dumped" goods is no case of a general tax or of a general penalisation of any special article. It only applies to goods that are manufactured, or partly manufactured, which are delivered in this country in such quantities as to lead to the unemployment of persons in this country who are actually engaged in that industry. I have been accused of a certain lack of enthusiasm in introducing these resolutions. I am not a man who is given to enthusiasm for legislation. I have not that profound belief in the ameliorative effects of legislation of any kind which any man who hopes to rise high in the political world ought to have. From that I imagine that I have about got to the top of my tree. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] But I do feel, and have felt all through these Resolutions, that the conditions laid down for proving a case are Very stringent and I believe that, in action, people will find it much less easy than they had hoped to get that help which they anticipated from the Bill. I do not know that that is wholly a bad thing, because I am convinced that a case for taking drastic action of this kind ought to be overwhelming, if it is to be made at all.

There is only one other point with which I wish to deal, and here I think that hon. Gentlemen opposite have been, perhaps, a little led away by the genuine feeling that they have of opposition to the proposals which we have made. I do not believe in those feelings of uncertainty and indecision that they say are so prevalent among the trading community. I have no evidence of it myself either in personal conversation with my friends or in correspondence. I do not believe that it exists, and I believe so far from that being the case, taking the trading community as a whole, they are only too relieved to find that legislation of this kind is being attended to. My own belief is that legislation of this kind when known to exist acts as a deterrent, and that in cases where firms may be thinking of dumping deliberately for a time in this country, when they see how we are trying to protect ourselves, they will give up the attempt. In the circumstances I cannot accept the Amendment proposed, and I hope that the explanation I have given as to the Bill itself may be satisfactory to the Committee.

The speech of the right hon. Gentleman invites a reply. In fact, the more this Bill is expounded by the Ministers in charge, the more its absurdities come to light. I do not doubt, and no member of this Committee doubts, that much higher and more dignified duties lie before the right hon. Gentleman than the defence of this measure. He may be up a tree, but I am sure that he is not yet at the top. The right hon. Gentleman first took the case of steel, and made a speech which would be appropriate to the first of these Resolutions. Steel was not to be had in this country during the war in sufficient quantities; people had put down great plants, and it was our duty to encourage them to produce steel, so that when the next war comes we shall have plenty of steel. If that is so why is not steel put in among the key industries? Why does the right hon. Gentleman want to protect it in this lopsided way in the second Resolution?

Then he says that this measure is one which imposes no general tax. That is the very feature about it which all business people regret.

12 M.

There is a great deal to be said for a frank tariff which everybody understands, so that people know exactly where they are. It is much better than a plan of this kind which puts into the hands of a department, subject to influences which are constantly brought to bear by interests which are concerned, the power to decide by order that this or that should be taxed or that this or that should be free. That is the most objectionable form of tariff that could possibly be introduced. Then the right hon. Gentleman also threw a flood of light on another part of these resolutions because he said that the tax would apply if it could be shown that employment in any industry is being affected. That is not what the Resolution says. What is the fact about this? What sort of employment is it? Supposing, for example, a shipper can show that he has diminished the number of employers in his line owing to the check in the amount of goods which previously came into this country. Is he entitled to come to the Board of Trade and say that his action has destroyed employment in his district or is the Board of Trade to be exclusively visited by the man who shows the finished product—whatever the employment in his trade is now. The more you go into it, the more confusing it becomes, and the more certain is it that the matter will be decided by a junta When the right hon. Gentleman went on to say that we could find here that food is not to be taxed. But whereabouts in this Resolution can he find the fact that food is not liable to these duties? Nowhere. The words do not exist. We have certainly a pledge which I would accept and consider as good a bond as one could have, namely, the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, but it is the Law Courts that have to interpret these things, and nothing that is ever said in this House has the least effect on the mind of a judge in deciding cases. Under this Resolution, ships' plates, patent fuels, all sorts of things which are the raw materials of our industries, will be taxed very heavily. Take the case of goods which come from Germany. We are asking the Germans to pay an enormous indemnity—I do not believe myself that they can pay it—but they have been asked, and they have accepted. What form is the indemnity to take? It must take the form of goods. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Do hon. Members think it will come in gold or banknotes? For the purposes of my argument, I am going to assume that it will come over in goods. If you were to exclude these raw materials from the operation of the tax, the tendency would be to force the Germans then to send the indemnity in highly manufactured goods. You are preventing them from sending the very form of indemnity which would be the most desirable to have. The sort of goods that would come from Germany with most acceptance to the traders of this country would be goods in a very low manufactured condition, such as potash, timber, sugar, or something which was the basis of some future manufacture or operation. By this tax you will force the Germans to pay in that more highly manufactured class of goods, and that is all the, worse for the industries of this country. You are putting a tax of 166 per cent. on these articles. First of all, you take the price of the article; you pay 100 per cent. tax under the Reparation Bill, and then you call the joint amount the value of the article. So that you double what is called the value of the article. You then levy 33⅓ per cent. under this Bill, so that to say that you impose a tax of only 33⅓ per cent. is not correct. You are doing this against articles which are absolutely necessary to the well-being of this country—against, for example, sugar.

Then why not accept the Amendment? It is noticeable that the Leader of the House, who, I suppose, is the real author of this scheme, never comes in to defend it. His interventions in the Debate are exclusively concerned with asking for the Closure against Members who wish to debate these Resolutions, but I think we might hear something on this Amendment from the Coalition Liberal Party. They had a meeting of fifty Members on the 9th November last and passed some very specific resolutions dealing with this question. Every member of the fifty voted for those resolutions, and what are those hon. Gentlemen going to do? I will read one of the resolutions:

"It is vital that our manufacturers should be able to obtain essential commodities for their business at the cheapest rate in the best markets in the world."

If that is not another way of supporting the Amendment now before the Committee, I do not know what it is. What are the fifty people who passed this resolution going to do in the Division Lobby? I contend we have had no satisfactory answer from the Government on the Amendment, and really, the more these Resolutions are considered the less satisfactory they appear.

When the right hon. Gentleman opposite introduced these Resolutions he did so in the position of Dr. Barnardo. He was offering himself as the father of a very large family, although at the moment it was only one child on the doorstep. He has since discovered a number of foster fathers, and I congratulate him upon the fact. These Resolutions might have been introduced more appropriately last Friday, when we were discussing the Bastardy laws, because on that occasion we were trying to decide the exact parentage of certain children. I am very sorry indeed the right hon. Gentleman should find himself in such an unfortunate position the first time he introduces a Resolution on behalf of the Government. We are asked to recognise the difference between various kinds of materials and also to recognise our responsibility to the people whom we have the opportunity of governing. I believe the House of Commons is the Government of the country in the main. One of the objects of the Resolutions that have been introduced is to protect key industries, and the most important key industry in Great Britain to-day is the coal industry. A million and a quarter of men and boys are to-day on the streets, starving, because they are not able to get the conditions to which they think they are entitled. I am not going to enter into the coal controversy, but I want to point out that if there is any desire to protect a key industry, the coal industry ought to be the first to be protected. Here a proposition is made that for a period of five years certain industries shall be protected against foreign competition. I am not an orthodox Free Trader.

I think the hon. Member is going beyond the Amendment, which says nothing about the period of five years.

I bow to your ruling, but I have heard so many other Members wandering all over the place that I thought I was entitled to a Cook's excursion. I will do the best I can to keep within the limits of the Amendment. Are those hon. Members who are so enthusiastically in favour of a 33⅓ per cent. protection for certain industries in this country, and who find themselves hard hit by foreign competition, prepared to guarantee the same protection to the coal industry for the same period of years? I remember reading a speech delivered by the Prime Minister, who happens to be, I suppose, the only man who can keep the present Coalition together, and he did me the honour of referring to myself. I never knew I was such a famous person, but in that speech he pointed out that no industry could be protected against the economic laws of the time. In quoting that speech, I am not going out of my way in pointing out that there might be a good deal to be said for each industry for itself, and if it cannot maintain itself in the open world of competition it deserves to be spoonfed by the Government of the time.

No, at Maidstone. These Resolutions were conceived in Birmingham, born in Bedlam, christened at Maidstone, and they may be buried at Westminster, simply because—

The hon. Member is getting rather far from the Question, which is whether or not food, raw materials, and semi-manufactured articles should be included in the Resolution, assuming the Resolution is passed.

I suggest that raw materials include coal, which is the basis of all material, and I am asking why coal is not included in the raw materials that are going to be protected. You say you are anxious to prevent unemployment, and the Government have declared their desire that the workers shall be guaranteed against foreign competition. We are an industrial country, and America, we are told to-day, with a higher wage is sending coal into Great Britain at a price we cannot compete against. If that be the case why cannot the Government protect the coal industry of this country against American and other competition? Why has coal been left out and all these industries included? It seems strange to me, but I am not an economist. The only economy I understand is the economy of doing without things, because I cannot afford to buy them. The economy of some hon. Members opposite is that of expending money which other people make for them. If you are going to protect particular industries, I ask the House to realise that the mass of the workers outside will put this question—"What is the object?" It is not to protect the nation; it is simply to protect sweaters and people who take advantage of the position of the workers. Therefore we are opposing these resolutions, in the hope that the Government will eventually get sense and that some of their supporters will come back to where they started from originally.

I want to ask my right hon. Friend what is the objection of the Government to except food. If the Government, speaking through him in his opening speech, deliberately pledged themselves not to include food, what is the objection to giving statutory effect to that pledge.

This Amendment says "food, raw materials and semi manufactured articles."

The President of the Board of Trade was very definite and very emphatic a few days ago on the question of food. I wish he had been equally emphatic on a matter which is also of very considerable importance, and that is on the supply of raw and semi-manufactured materials. It is true he stated he had not received many proposals on this subject, but if he can spare time to come to the offices of the London Chamber of Commerce I will place before him abundance of material that will show him clearly the importance of this to the manufacturers of the country. In that connection I am very glad to see upon the Treasury Bench the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. McCurdy). I can assure him this is giving a good deal of concern to the manufacturers in Northampton. I have in my possession a number of letters from manufacturers in that town who state that they are very much in need of certain classes of German leather. With the permission of the Committee I shall read one extract—

Whether one is more important than the other I leave to the Government to decide. In London we have a large bag making industry. In this case I have a letter from a firm who want frames to make the complete article. They are complaining that they are losing business, and will lose more, unless they can get these frames, which come from America or Germany. And one is not confined to these two industries. I have the case of a firm who started to lay down a plant to make optical frames. They have machinery and other plant from Germany, and, with the assistance of the Government, they have been able to bring over some German workmen who are accustomed to this class of machinery. Now they want to get some materials from Germany. All this is done to start a new industry in this country, but under these proposals they will not be able to get materials, except at a considerable disadvantage, which will not enable them to start the industry under proper conditions. There are plenty of other examples I could quote, but I think those are sufficient to show that there is stem necessity for this House to insure that these taxes shall not be levied on goods shown to be essential for employing our people. I therefore join in the opposition to the Government's proposals.

I am glad that the President of the Board of Trade made the contribution that he did to the Debate, because there is no doubt that we are dealing with matters to-night which are absolutely vital to hundreds of millions of pounds worth of British trade. The point has been made that it is important, especially as we have Whitsuntide before us, that we should get the Resolution, in its general description, as nearly as possible into the shape which is to be taken by the Bill. Therefore, I welcome the indication of my right hon. Friend that he is willing to accept the inclusion of food into the Resolution. In order that people may know more or less where they are likely to be, I would ask him whether he cannot go further, and implement definitely what he said three days ago, namely, that raw materials also should be specially excepted. He said quite definitely that the Bill would not apply to raw materials, and if he would accept an Amendment that food and raw materials should be excluded, my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment would be willing to amend his Amendment. [HON. MEMBEES: "No, No!"] I am stating what he told me. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he can do so?

That is quite definite and quite fair. It means that the Government, at this stage at any rate, do not mean to take away from themselves the power of putting these duties on raw materials. We know where we are. May I without further comment on that, point out to the House that my right hon. Friend has quite naturally—I do not complain —but gradually, let us know what this Bill will mean when it conies before the House. It was made perfectly clear, for instance, just now, that the Government would not exclude raw material. My right hon. Friend made two very important points in his speech. He did get nearer than the Government have got before to their definitions of what manufactured articles other than food may be. He made it clear that the duties are to apply to anything—I do not know if I got his words quite accurately—but anything with the element of manufacture or semi-manufacture in it. I do not think in essence I am misrepresenting him—anything with a manufacturing process in it. At any rate it is quite good to have got so far.

The other point he made—even more important—was this: That the inquiry will be not on employment in general in the country as likely to be affected by these proposals, but how the employment in producing the particular article under consideration is affected, or likely to be, by the Bill. That is essentially the whole problem. We now have what we suspected before and what really the intention of the Government is. We now have it perfectly clear that under these duties you may tax things like ship-plate, these essential articles; absolutely raw material for the maker of machinery, for the maker of ships, and for the great staple industries of the country. Not a single manufactured article but what may be taxed, if required, and there will be no enquiry whatever as to how employment in these enormous industries is affected. The thing is almost incredible. It seems as if the House could not get into its mind one essential thing about our case before the war. It was this: that by leaving things alone [An HON. MEMBER: "Your friends, nearly lost us the war."]—my hon. Friend should have waited till I finished my sentence—no country in the world imported as large a proportion of its imports in the form of food and raw material, and no country exported a larger proportion of its exports in the form of manufactured goods. We had an enormous export of manufactured goods, ships, machinery, and so on, very largely because our people could get these semi-manufac- tured and partially manufactured goods at the world's cheapest price. It has been made perfectly clear to us to-night that it is not the intention of the Government, if they can prevent it, to allow this to go on. This will enormously strengthen the rapidly rising opposition to the details of the Government's plans now that they are now being gradually unfolded before, us.

It does appear to me that we have arrived at a very serious point in this debate. Real vital issues are now before us. I would like to say that to discuss a point vital to the commerce, and to the employment of vast numbers of people of this country at this hour of the morning is not showing a due sense of proportion. I am certain that we are now confronted with something of the utmost significance to the people. The President of the Board of Trade has now made it quite clear that under these Resolutions you are setting up the potentiality of a Bill which will tax raw material essential to employment in this country. What really is the justification of this Bill? We are told that it is to help the industry of the country at a time when employment and labour were in a worse condition than ever they had been. The President of the Board of Trade made it quite clear that under this scheme steel may come to be taxed. I remember—I am getting a bit of an old stager now in this question—when Mr. Chamberlain first was won over to the question of Tariff Reform. Mr. Chamberlain in my young days was our great ideal of the typical Radical. I can remember how young men like myself went from one end of the town to the other to hear Mr. Chamberlain and Sir Charles Dilke. We young Radicals—I do not know whether it is true of young Tories—had a way, when a man we believed was a great man propounded a theory, of trying to examine it and some of us took one view and some took another. I had a relative who was engaged at the time in the building of ships. He became converted to this wretched Tariff Reform. I adhered to the old-fashioned Free Trade. Sometime afterwards I saw that a considerable contract had been taken for the building of ships for a foreign Government, and shortly afterwards I learned that there had been a considerable purchase of steel from the Continent. I went to this relative of mine and I said "Have these two things any connection?" He admitted that they had. But he said this—if we had not bought that steel from the Continent we could not have taken the contract for the ships and there is much more employment in the building of the ships than there is in the making of the steel. What was my right hon. Friend's point? I quite recognise in the President of the Board of Trade a sincere and experienced man. His point appeared to be that we must make the steel as well as make the ships. But if we want this, while you are building up this industry of which he speaks, what is going to become of your shipbuilding? You are going to increase unemployment in the country under this measure, a measure professedly to help unemploy-

ment. I repeat that after all the whole position is now unmasked. There has been an appeal to my right hon. Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. McCurdy) in connection with certain raw materials. But I do say that we are now confronted with a situation which is contrary to what he and I have declared in the past. Did he or did he not agree with what the President of the Board of Trade has said?

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 156; Noes, 41.

Division No. 107.]

AYES.

[12.35 a.m.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent

Forestier-Walker, L.

Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Ganzoni, sir John

Perkins, Walter Frank

Armitage, Robert

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Atkey, A. R.

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

Poison, Sir Thomas A.

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Goff, Sir R. Park

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Green, Albert (Derby)

Prescott, Major W. H.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Barker, Major Robert H.

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Rankin, Captain James Stuart

Barlow, Sir Montague

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Gregory, Holman

Remer, J. R.

Barnston, Major Harry

Hailwood, Augustine

Remnant, Sir James

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Betterton, Henry B.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Bigland, Alfred

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Rodger, A. K.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Hinds, John

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Brassey, H. L. C.

Hood, Joseph

Simm, M. T.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Hopkins, John W. W.

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Briggs, Harold

Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

Stanier, Captain Sir Beville

Brittain, sir Harry

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Steel, Major S. Strang

Brown, Major D. C.

Hurd, Percy A.

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

Bruton, Sir James

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Sutherland, Sir William

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Jephcott, A. R.

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Cautley, Henry Strother

Johnson, Sir Stanley

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Birm., W.)

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Townley, Maximilian G.

Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill

Kidd, James

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Churchman, Sir Arthur

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Lane-Fox, G. R.

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

Clough, Robert

Lindsay, William Arthur

Whitla, Sir William

Coats, Sir Stuart

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Lort-Williams, J.

Williams, C. (Tavistock)

Cope, Major William

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Lyle, C. E. Leonard

Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Manville, Edward

Winterton, Earl

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Wise, Frederick

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Dean, Commander P. T.

Murchison, C. K.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Nall, Major Joseph

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Neal, Arthur

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Elliott, Lt.-Col. sir G. (Islington, W.)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Mr. McCurdy and Col. Leslie Wilson.

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Falcon, Captain Michael

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Hogge, James Myles

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Spencer, George A.

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Briant, Frank

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Kiley, James Daniel

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Lunn, William

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Badwellty)

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Wilson, James (Dudley)

Gillis, William

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbrdge)

Glanville, Harold James

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Grundy, T. W.

Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

Wintringham, Thomas

Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C).

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

Hayday, Arthur

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Hayward, Evan

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Major Barnes and Mr. Lyle-Samuel.

Hirst, G. H.

Rendall, Atheistan

Question put accordingly "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 49; Noes, 146.

Division No. 108.]

AYES.

[12.45 a.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Hayday, Arthur

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Hayward, Evan

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Hinds, John

Rendall, Athelstan

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hirst, G. H.

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Briant, Frank

Johnstone, Joseph

Spencer, George A.

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Davies, A (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Kiley, James Daniel

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Lunn, William

Wilson, James (Dudley)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbrdge)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

France, Gerald Ashburner

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Wintringham, Thomas

Gillis, William

Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Glanville, Harold James

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Grundy, T. W.

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Mr. Hogge and Mr. Neil Maclean.

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

NOES.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Colvin, Brig. General Richard Beale

Jephcott, A. R.

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Cope, Major William

Johnson, Sir Stanley

Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Armitage, Robert

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Kidd, James

Atkey, A. R.

Dean, Commander P. T.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Doyle, N. Grattan

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.)

Locker-Lampson, Com. O, (H'tingd'n)

Barker, Major Robert H.

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Lort-Williams, J.

Barlow, Sir Montague

Falcon, Captain Michael

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Lyle, C. E. Leonard

Barnston, Major Harry

Forestier-Walker, L.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Manville, Edward

Betterton, Henry B.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Bigland, Alfred

Ganzoni, Sir John

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Murchison, C. K.

Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

Nall, Major Joseph

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Goff, sir R. Park

Neal, Arthur

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Green, Albert (Derby)

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Brassey, H. L. C.

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Briggs, Harold

Gregory, Holman

Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

Brittain, Sir Harry

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Perkins, Walter Frank

Brown, Major D. C.

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Bruton, Sir James

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Poison, Sir Thomas A.

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Prescott, Major W. H.

Cautley, Henry Strother

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., w.)

Hood, Joseph

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

Hopkins, John W. W.

Rankin, Captain James Stuart

Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill

Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Remer, J. R.

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Remnant, Sir James

Clough, Robert

Hurd, Percy A.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Coats, Sir Stuart

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Townley, Maximilian G.

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Simm, M. T.

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Winterton, Earl

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

Wise, Frederick

Stanier, Captain Sir Beville

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

Worthington-Evans Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Steel, Major S. Strang

Whitla, Sir William

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Sutherland, Sir William

Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Terrell, George, (Wilts, Chippenham)

Williams, C. (Tavistock)

Mr. McCurdy and Col. Leslie Wilson.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

I beg to move, after the word "Ireland," to insert the words, "not being articles manufactured in other parts of the British Empire."

We have not on this side of the Committee had much success so far in our efforts to reduce the evils existing in these Resolutions, but I am satisfied that so far as this Amendment is concerned it is certain to meet with the acceptance of the Government. I cannot think that the great Imperial party will dare to pass a Resolution which is to prevent our Colonies and Dependencies sending us such goods as they wish to send. Surely after the cries we had at the last Election of cementing the bonds of Empire by Imperial Preference we are not going to set up a tariff wall against those of our own kith and kin beyond the seas. One remembers the Election speeches of the other side and it is surely impossible to think that those who fought with us during the recent war are to be penalised to the extent of 33 or possibly 66 per cent. in the goods they wish to send us. One can only conceive that the sound argument against this Amendment would be that the Government were prepared to believe that in the near future those who fought, with us were to be our potential enemies. I am perfectly certain it requires no further words to commend this Amendment to the approval of the Government.

I have a little hesitation in supporting this Amendment, because I feel very strongly that a great responsibility rests on this side of the Committee. Somebody has to stand up for the British Empire. I am one of those who believe, and always have believed, that we want an Empire based on righteousness, and the bigger the Empire the better. I regret, however, that though we have got a strong Government in power, we have got a Government which is apparently a Little England Government. We have passed through the greatest crisis in our Empire history. These great sister Dominions came to our help in men, in material, and in every form of help they could give us. Now we propose, at any rate, to take powers to close our ports to them unless they can pass the barrier of a great tariff. I want to appeal to the Government to try to realise the responsibilities of Empire; to try to feel that in a little Englandism there is no great inspiration. [An HON. MEMBER: "And India."] I do not know why the hon. Member says "and India," but I should very much like to hear what is the Government's case for confining this to the United Kingdom. I would like to know why they should put these taxes on the great sister Dominions. There always has been a kind of superstition that protection and the desire for the extension of the British Empire were the property of one party in the State. I always believed that that was a delusion, and here and now we have a complete proof of it. I would like to give the Government an opportunity for repentance. Up to now their attitude towards this side of the Committee has been an absolute non-possumus. Here they can do something which, if it slightly conflicts with their principles, will at any rate be a message of peace throughout the whole Empire, and I do ask them to consider really whether we have not got to the point at which they must depart from their inflexible attitude. Whatever differences there may be we ought to stand for the Empire. On those broad grounds I ask the Government whether they will not agree to accept the Amendment.

I really do not think that the suggestion that the Government are not giving consideration to the Empire will hold water for a single moment, because under the first proposal, namely, the proposal to put a duty on key industries, we intend not only to give a preference within the Empire, but we intend to exclude from any duty at all any of those manufactures within the Empire. [An HON. MEMBER: "Then why not accept the Amendment?"] Because we are now on the second Re- solution and that deals with a different matter.

It is not stated in terms in the first Resolution because, as my hon. Friend knows, the whole of the Bill cannot be set out in the Resolutions. As regards the merits of this particular proposal now before the Committee, it is not a practicable proposal at all, and for this reason, that unless you made your dumping provision general it would be perfectly possible for the United States to dump through Canada, either by direct export or by the establishment of American factories in Canada, using American material and then dumping here. It is quite true that there is a Canadian anti-dumping law, but that applies only to goods manufactured within the Dominion, and therefore it is absolutely necessary if you are going to provide effective anti-dumping legislation at all, to provide that it should be general, not because there is any fear of ordinary Canadian manufacturers dumping—that, I think, is most unlikely—but because there is a very genuine fear that you will leave open the door to United States manufacturers to dump through Canada. [ Interruption. ] An hon. Member, says that is too silly for words, and has invited us to consider what other Dominions have done. He will, perhaps, be interested to learn that every Dominion which has passed anti-dumping legislation has done exactly this very thing which I am asking the Committee to do, and has made its legislation perfectly general. I think that in following the Canadian model we shall not be doing any injustice to the Dominions, and we shall be able to make the proposal effective.

I find myself rather in agreement with the hon. Gentleman (Sir P. Lloyd-Greame). I have always tried to be consistent and I mean to be on this occasion, and I am rather glad the Government are not going to accept the Amendment, because I have the greatest objection to any sort of Preference. I was in favour of Preference before the War, but I think that if we, with our over-grown Empire, proceed on the lines suggested by the hon. Member for Oldham (Sir W. Barton), and draw round it a form of ring fence, making a sort of Mittel Europa spreading half across the globe, we shall be inviting trouble from every other country. If we are going to put this ridiculous taxation on imports, let us do it all round, and not single out one nation from another. That is the way to make friction and trouble and international jealousies, and, the most ghastly result of all, war. I wish to ask one question, and I hope I may be favoured with a reply from the Parliamentary Secretary of the Admiralty, the late Under-Secretary for the Colonies, because I know his knowledge is very great, and because I had some very polite passages of arms with him a little time ago on one of the earlier Budgets. Is this going to include the mandated areas as well? Are we going to put taxes on goods coming from the mandated areas? This a matter of some substance. We are told that the United States might set up factories in Canada and give employment to Canadian workmen, and compete with us by Canadian labour. I am glad to see that the Government is going to make no difference between Canadian and American labour. I am sufficient of an internationalist to be entirely in agreement with that, but do they think that the population of these new mandated territories that we have taken under our wing are going to dump on us?

Therefore we are going to put a tax on any goods that these mandated territories may send to us.

Is it in order to discuss the mandated areas on an Amendment referring to the British Empire?

Personally, I should object very strongly to the mandated areas being part of the British Empire, and if this Amendment had been accepted I would have been very distressed. I am glad the Government are not going specially to favour the Dominions as against other countries, but at the same time I think there should be no unnecessary hindrances to commence with these mandated territories. They are being set on their feet; their economic life has been interrupted by change of Government, and so on. In the case of German East Africa, for example, we have settled great numbers of ex-service men there, and they will want to send their raw material to this country—their rubber, cotton, and so on.

I would like to support the hon. and gallant Gentleman in the attack he has made on those with whom he is generally associated. They have claimed to be the advocates and spokesmen of Free Trade. In this Amendment they plainly avow that they are not. They show themselves naked and unashamed as advocates of Imperial Preference. Every argument that they addressed to the House is an argument in support of the most extreme form of Imperial Preference. They are not honest in claiming to be Free Traders. They are merely using Free Trade as a stick to beat the Government. The course which they are adopting, the manner in which they are arguing Free Trade in this Debate is one which is calculated to discredit Free Trade in the country. This is a protectionist Amendment brought against the Government and the accusation against the Government is that the Government is acting in a Free Trade manner. I do not think that is good enough. I would like to make an appeal to my hon. Friends. What is the use of spending all their thunder and wasting all their ammunition on these Resolutions? These Resolutions have no effect in legislation. They are not the enactment; they are not the Act. They are merely forestalling all the points which they propose to introduce.

We cannot have a Second Reading debate now. We must discuss the Amendment only. The hon. Member is proceeding to discuss the Resolutions as such and that would be out of order now.

All I was proposing to do was to deprecate the dealing with this kind of detail which is in this Amendment and which is also in other Amendments which are to be moved. I was going to deprecate the discussion of them at such length.

My hon. and gallant Friend and my colleague in the representation of Scotland said that in this Resolution we were giving power to the Government to do certain things. We are not giving power to the Government to do anything. We are merely giving power to ourselves in accordance with the forms of the House to discuss a Bill dealing with this matter. But they are attempting in this Amendment and in other Amendments to frame the Bill on the Resolutions. It is right and proper in procedure of this kind that the Resolutions should be framed in the broadest possible manner in order that the House may have perfect freedom to discuss the Bill. Therefore I appeal to my hon. Friends opposite to reserve their arguments.

I have the right which every Member of the Committee has to appeal to any of them and a special right to appeal to my hon. Friend.

I appeal to them to reserve their arguments and to reserve their ammunition for the time when discussion and voting will be really effective and that is the time when we have the Bill as a whole before us and are dealing with it as an enactment.

The hon. Gentleman who has just resumed his seat asked us to withdraw our opposition. As a Coalition Liberal and as a Free Trader he knows that in this case no opposition to these proposals will be effective. He knows perfectly well that they are going to be carried. Further, may I say, he knows they are going to be carried by his assistance and claiming all the way that he is an old Free Trader. But while he criticises those of us who regard Free Trade at this moment in a different sense from that in which he regards it—

He has now made the only point which he could have made in this debate and has made his sole contribution. He knows perfectly well—as well as he knows his own name and his own constituency—that he was never pledged to that which now he is supporting for reasons which I will not question, and he knows that my honour—[ Interruption. ] That is very offensive. I am a Member of this House, and when I 0refer to my honour it is not a matter—.[An HON. MEMBER: "Get on with it."] I am a Member of this House and I am interrupted in the most rude and offensive manner.

I am coming to the Amendment. This arises out of interruptions which you do not check or question. [HON MEMBERS: Order, order.]

The remarks of the hon. Gentleman rather invited interruption. I ask him now to discuss the Amendment and to leave the subject he is now discussing.

We are asked now to say that this application of the principle of a levy is to exclude articles not being manufactured in other parts of the British Empire. We say that although we object to the principle of taxation the extension to the British Empire is an additional offence. If it is proposed that this levy should be made it should not be extended to the British Empire. It has been said that this Amendment is one in favour of Imperial Preference. Far from that being so our view is that objecting as we do to the tariff being levied yet if a tariff is to be levied an exception should be made with reference to manufactures produced in the British Empire. It is a very simple proposition. It proves that we on this side in objecting to this are true Imperialists, that we are inviting and encouraging trade from whatsoever quarter of the British Empire it comes. If the Government decide, and we think they are wrong in deciding, that a tariff is to be levied upon all countries in the world we ask that goods manufactured in the British Empire shall be excluded from this tariff. It is a truly Imperial proposition and a true interpretation of the Liberal view of Empire. We think that this Amendment is logical, business like and truly Imperial, and we ask the Committee to accept it.

I have risen because the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. MacCallum Scott) appealed to us not to discuss matters regarding the Resolutions, and not to submit Amendments to the Resolutions, and the point he submitted was that the Bill is going to be brought into the House, and then we shall have opportunity to discuss and to put forward the arguments that are being put forward at the various periods of the debate. I am surprised that he should put up such an argument, considering the time he took yesterday to deliver a Free Trade speech in the House—one that showed, so far as his utterances go, that he holds the same ideas that he held in the old days when he stood as a Free Trader and propagated Free Trade principles in the division he represents. I am somewhat amazed, also, to find, on looking at the OFFICIAL REPORT, that the hon. Member voted, in the Division lobby, against the principles in favour of which he spoke.

I said in my speech that I would vote for the proposals of the Government in the first Resolution, and I voted for them.

I am not trying to make out that the hon. Member was, in any way in conflict with his principles. He made this speech in the House, and voted with the Government. I have not said that he has been in any way contradictory in the attitude which he has taken up. We naturally expect that a man who has promised his constituents to support a particular Government, no matter how he may speak in the House or what his own personal principles may be with regard to the particular subject before the Committee, will recognise his pledge to his constituents. I am only pointing out that he should be the last man to object to members on this side trying, in putting forward these Amendments, to elicit from the Government what the nature of the Bill that is to be brought into the House is likely to be, so that we may arrange our objections to it or agree to place our votes at the service of the Government if the Bill is consistent with the principles which we hold. The Amendment now before the Committee is one which asks the "Big Englanders," or Imperialists, to redeem their pledges to the Colonies. You invited them over here; they have rallied to you; they showed that, so far as they were concerned, they were prepared to stand by the old country. In this particular Resolution, and, judging by the statement we have heard, in the Bill also, the general principle is going to be laid down that they also will come within the scope of any tariff that may be imposed. That is not treating the Colonies as a part of the Empire; that is treating the Colonies—

Very well; that is treating the Dominions in the same way that you are treating Germany. You are placing them in the same position, by this Resolution, and you are placing them in the same position, under the Bill, as you are placing Germany and other countries. The remarkable thing is that the great amount of discussion that has taken place on these Resolutions should be with regard to the competition from a country like Germany, and the remarkable thing to me is that those in Britain who claim to be so patriotic should be the very offenders and should make themselves, by their action in bringing into this country German made goods, responsible for the Resolutions which are before the House at present, and which we are seeking to amend. I have only risen to ask the Government to accept this Amendment, which the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. A. M. Scott) suggests is a Protectionist Amendment. If it is, he has given his pledge to his constituents, and, being a Free Trader, I expect that he is going to vote against it, and therefore he will still be redeeming his pledge in voting for the Government, which, after all, is bringing in Protectionist measures. I do not know if he will abstain from voting, which would be the safer way to redeem his pledges. I hope that we shall have a further statement from the Government. What has struck me since eleven o'clock has been the seemingly Sphinx-like silence which we have had, with the exception of the hon. Member for Bridgeton, from the Benches of the supporters of the Government. Whether they have been asked to sit down so that things can go on I do not know, but hon. Members on those Benches, who are usually so eloquent, are tonight conspicuous by their silence. They are sitting like so many pupils in a school, listening to lessons. Well, I hope that the lessons which they are getting from this side will be duly recorded and appreciated by them and I hope that, in future, their conduct will be such as to support us in the Lobby.

I just desire to make two small points on this Amendment. The first arises out of the speech of the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. A. M. Scott), who twitted us with having put forward a Protectionist Amendment. But if he will look into that matter again I think that he will be the first to agree that that is an inaccurate and unfair description of the Amendment. What is it that the Resolution proposes to do. It proposes to empower the Government to introduce a Bill to set up practically a tariff against all goods coming into the United Kingdom; that is to say, it proposes to set up a Protectionist system. We have put forward an amendment to make a reservation from that Protectionist system, to save something from the wreckage and to enlarge the Free Trade area, and not confine it merely to the United Kingdom, but to extend it to the Dominions as well. That is a truly Free Trade Amendment, and I am sure that the hon. Member for Bridgeton will be the first to agree that his description of it as a Protectionist Amendment is quite wrong. It is really in the opposite direction. The other point arises out of the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade. He complained, as I gather, that if the Government accepted this particular Amendment, Americans and others would be able to take advantage of it to bring into this country goods which were really American through the Colonies. But is it not a fact that at present we have a system of Imperial Preference in working order, and if that argument is a good one against the form of Imperial Preference which we are pressing in the Committee, surely it is also a valid argument against a system of Imperial Preference which is already in working order, and why, if we have adopted a system of Imperial Preference, and if it is working, is the Government able to prevent foreign goods coming into this country through our Dominions? If they are not, why do they keep on their, system of Imperial Preference? If they are, what is the value of the argument which was put before the Committee a few minutes ago by the hon. and gallant Member? I cannot help thinking that he also, if he will look into the argument again, will be quite ready to admit that it is a bad one and that no objection can be taken to our Amendment on that particular score. We are putting forward this Amendment in all sincerity, believing that we are under an obligation to the Dominions and that this is one method by which we can discharge that particular obligation. I hope that those who, all along, in the House of Commons and out of it, have been preaching Imperial Preference, will not miss this opportunity of registering their votes in its favour.

I certainly think that hon. Members opposite ought to be encouraged in their zeal for Imperial Preference. I am not impressed by the argument of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade that American goods might come in because the Amendment specifically says "articles manufactured in the British Empire." Possibly hon. Members opposite might be willing to insert the word "wholly."

The more we discuss these Resolutions the more we find the real material facts connected with them. The Leader of the House some time ago came in and moved the Closure on the whole of the first Resolution. Now we know what we never heard before, that there is to be Imperial Preference on key industries. It really is so very vital that we ought to have known that before we came to the second Resolution. We now know that there are to be three systems adopted within the British Empire. There are manufacturers who get advantage of the ordinary Preference under the Budget. Then there are manufacturers who have key industries. They are going to have an Imperial Preference. They will have free admission to our markets as against other people's key industries. Then you will get the unhappy people manufacturing other articles, particularly in India. They are to be taxed to the tune of one third of the value. That is a serious business point. What sort of effect is to be produced on the minds of manufacturers within the Empire who receive such different treatment at the hands of the Mother country? The Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department spoke as if this was only to apply where dumping was suspected. That is not so. This is to apply to any country, including the Dominions, which has a depreciated exchange. I think I am right in saying that the Indian exchange is depreciated at the present moment. What is to be the effect on India's exports to this country? Let me remind the Committee of the enormous quantities of some of the articles that we receive from that country. Last year, under the heading of leather, rough tanned, including rough finished, we received goods to the value of £190,000. Hides, other sorts, £6,000,000. And we are proposing tonight to put a tax of one-third the value on those imports. I do not know what to think about the Amendment. I am inclined to think that I will not support it because I believe that what is good for one is good for all. The whole thing is destructive of British trade, and I do not see that it will do any good to let off one person. At any rate it will do no good to let it be known that you are going to tax the enormous exports which the great Dependency of India makes to this country. The hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. M. Scott) made a point of sticking to his election pledges and remaining a good free trader. But he pledged himself that dumping should be justified as depositing goods here below the cost of production. This Amendment has served a useful purpose if it has shown what a very severe blow this resolution is going to inflict on India.

I think we might hear from the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department or the President of the Board of Trade what the position is with regard to mandated territories.

We regard the imposition of these duties as an evil, but if the Dominions are really relieved of this tax we regard that as a reduction which should be welcomed. I was glad to see that the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) did not quite agree with this Amendment because it shows a spirit of independence. He said that if the duty is to be applied it should be applied universally, but if benefits are to be given why should not the poor inhabitants of Mesopotamia share in them? After all, the mandated territories are in this world, and these resolutions are contra mundi. But the people of our own Dominions have a much bigger claim upon us than the dwellers in Mesopotamia and

Palestine, and for that reason I am inclined to support the Amendment.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 142; Noes, 37.

Division No. 109.]

AYES.

[1.40 a.m.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Falcon, Captain Michael

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

Forestier-Walker, L.

Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Oxbridge, Mddx.)

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Armitage, Robert

France, Gerald Ashburner

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Atkey, A. R.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Perkins, Walter Frank

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

Poison, Sir Thomas A.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Barker, Major Robert H.

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Prescott, Major W. H.

Barlow, Sir Montague

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Gregory, Holman

Remer, J. R.

Barnston, Major Harry

Hailwood, Augustine

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Betterton, Henry B.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Rodger, A. K.

Bigland, Alfred

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Hinds, John

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Brassey, H. L. C.

Hood, Joseph

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Hopkins, John W. W.

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Sutherland, Sir William

Brown, Major D. C.

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Bruton, Sir James

Hurd, Percy A.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhlll)

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Townley, Maximilian G.

Cautley, Henry Strother

Jephcott, A. R.

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm.. W.)

Johnson, Sir Stanley

Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Whitla, Sir William

Clough, Robert

Kidd, James

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Coats, Sir Stuart

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Williams, C. (Tavistock)

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

Cope, Major William

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Lort-Williams, J.

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Winterton, Earl

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Wise, Frederick

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Manville, Edward

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Dean, Commander P. T.

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Murchison, C. K.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Neal, Arthur

Col. Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.

Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.)

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Hayward, Evan

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Hirst, G. H.

Rendall, Atheistan

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Hogge, James Myles

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Spencer, George A.

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Briant, Frank

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Kiley, James Daniel

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lunn, William

Wintringham, Thomas

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Gillis, William

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Glanville, Harold James

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Grundy, T. W.

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Mr. Newbould and Mr. Trevelyan Thomson.

Guest, J. (York, W, R., Hemsworth)

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Hayday, Arthur

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted."

I beg to move, to leave out the words "in addition to any other duties of Customs chargeable thereon."

This second Resolution proposes to pat a duty of 33⅓ per cent. upon certain articles, in addition to any other duties of Customs chargeable thereon. The Bill

The Committee divided; Ayes, 40; Noes, 138.

Division No. 110.]

AYES.

[1.49 a.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Hinds, John

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Hirst, G. H.

Rendall, Athelstan

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Hogge, James Myles

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Briant, Frank

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Spencer, George A.

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Kiley, James Daniel

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Lunn, William

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Gillis, William

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Wintringham, Thomas

Glanville, Harold James

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Grundy, T. W.

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

Sir W. Barton and Major Mackenzie Wood.

Hayday, Arthur

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Hayward, Evan

Raffan, Peter Wilson

NOES.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Forestier-Walker, L.

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Oxbridge, Mddx.)

Armitage, Robert

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Atkey, A. R.

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

Perkins, Walter Frank

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Goff, Sir R. Park

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Green, Albert (Derby)

Poison, Sir Thomas A.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Barker, Major Robert H.

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Prescott, Major W. H.

Barlow, Sir Montague

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Gregory, Holman

Remer, J. R.

Barnston, Major Harry

Hailwood, Augustine

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Betterton, Henry B.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Rodger, A. K.

Bigland, Alfred

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Birahall, Major J. Dearman

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Simm, M. T.

Brassey, H. L. C.

Hood, Joseph

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Hopkins, John W. W.

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Brittain, Sir Harry

Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Sutherland, Sir William

Brown, Major D. C.

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Bruton, Sir James

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Jephcott, A. R.

Townley, Maximilian G.

Cautley, Henry Strother

Johnson, Sir Stanley

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

Clough, Robert

Kidd, James

Whitla, Sir William

Coats, Sir Stuart

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Williams, C. (Tavistock)

Cope, Major William

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tlngd'n)

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Lort-Williams, J.

Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemal Hempstead)

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Winterton, Earl

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Manville, Edward

Wise, Frederick

Dean, Commander P. T.

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Murchison, C. K.

Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.)

Nail, Major Joseph

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Neal, Arthur

Col. Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.

Falcon, Captain Michael

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

2.0 A.M.

which is going to be founded upon these Resolutions is going to put on practically a general tariff. It is going to do so at a time when everyone is agreed that what we want most of all is to reduce the cost of living and reduce the cost of production in all our industries. Whatever may be the motive of this Bill, there is no

doubt about the results. It is going to increase these costs. I should like the Committee to realise how at the present time they are piling up duties upon these articles which are imported. Besides the duty of 33⅓ per cent. that is being levied under the Bill which is going to be introduced, there are others already in operation. We have already, in the case of a large number of articles imported from Germany and other foreign countries, a 33⅓ per cent. in operation on motor cars, musical instruments, and a number of other things. With this duty that will make 66⅔ But, in addition to that, there is charged a duty—a levy—which is practically equal to a duty—on all goods coming from Germany, and everyone knows that it is at Germany most of all that these particular Resolutions are aimed. We know also that according to the interpretations which have been put upon that Act by the Customs authorities the original price is added to by a levy equal to the amount of the original value. So that articles coming from Germany which before these duties were put on came here at a £100, they are now valued by the Customs authorities at £200, and on that £200 the extra two duties of 33⅓ per cent. will be calculated. The result will be, adding all these duties together, that we will have a tariff of 233⅓ per cent. on many articles coming into this country. That is an exact statement of the case. That is going to make a tremendous difference to the cost of living and the cost of production in this country, and I wish the House to realise exactly what they are doing. I cannot believe that the country would for one moment assent to a duty of that kind if they really realised that that was going to be the effect of all the legislation that has been passed recently. That is the only point of my Amendment, and seeing that it is evident what the result of these duties is going to be, I think we ought to do something to ensure that when any particular article is likely to have more than one duty levied upon it there should be a limitation so that only one should be effective. I hope, therefore, that the President of the Board of Trade will be able, at any rate, to give us some hope that where there are so many of these duties coining on an article at the same time he will be able to do something to mitigate the full force of these duties and give relief of some kind.

The lurid picture that has been drawn by the hon. Member who moved the Amendment is really the result of a complete misconception of what the Government purposes to do. The hon. and gallant Member appears to think that the position is in distinguishable from that of putting on a general tariff or a cumulative tariff. But that is not the position at all. The position is that the duty which is proposed under the second of these Resolutions—

I was not under the impression that the two duties were to be imposed under this Resolution. What I said was that there was the McKenna duty of 33⅓ per cent. and then the duty imposed by this Resolution.

I quite understand that, but I am endeavouring to point out that there is some misunderstanding. My point is that you are not automatically putting on a second duty. We are not going to schedule a number of goods in the Bill. But we say that if you can prove that an article is being dumped here belong the cost of production, or if you can prove that the article is being imported, by reason of the depreciation of exchange, at a price with which it is impossible to compete, then it is open to you to prove your case and to say that a duty should be imposed.

It would be quite impossible to prove both, because you would not have dumping going on at the same time as depreciation of exchange.

That is just what Germany is accused of doing now; dumping from a country with a low exchange.

Really, the right hon. Gentleman is entirely wrong. There is no case of dumping in the sense of selling below the cost of production in Germany. The claim can be for one or the other—

No. The point is whether the dumping duty, is going to be put on in addition to the McKenna duty. I maintain that the matter is perfectly clear, and for this reason. If you take into account the fact that the McKenna duty is leviable and that a duty of 33⅓ per cent. is already in existence, obviously it would be more difficult for the importer into this country to sell at a price which is below the cost of production in the country of origin, or at a price with which we cannot compete by reason of the depreciated exchange. But if, notwithstanding the import duties, you get dumping or importation so as to cause unemployment by reason of the depreciation of the exchange, then, surely, it is perfectly fair to put on extra duties if the existing duty is not meeting the case.

There is the McKenna duty of 33⅓ per cent., the dumping duty of 33⅓ per cent., and the reparation duty, so that there would be a total of 166⅔ per cent.

It is conceivable, but I think that it is practically impossible that that would be the case. Assuming that, for so long as the Reparation provision goes on, one-half is paid to the Treasury and one-half to the German exporter. Obviously that makes it more difficult for the German exporter to send his goods in at a greatly reduced price.

The hon. Gentleman makes an admirable wet nurse for the babe; he handles the child very skilfully, but the more he handles it, the uglier it looks. Was there ever such a situation created? Here we have the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department pushing a Bill of this sort. Here is a Minister with a salary and a Department, with officials and representatives all over the world for the purpose of encouraging trade with this country. That is his job, and yet, here he is, coming here and pushing in this Committee Resolutions which have only one object, and that is, to prevent trade with this country. Well might the Minister of Health talk about a "business Bedlam" when we have such a situation created. What instructions will the hon. and gallant Gentleman give to his representatives as they go about the world? When other countries ask "Will you buy our goods?" his representatives will say: "We wilt buy yours, but we will put a 33⅓ per cent. tax against them. "If you do manage to build up any kind of trade with our country you are sure to be met with the cry that you are creating unemployment, and when that cry is pressed upon us we will put a tariff against the trade that you have made. If you take Germany you certainly may get a 100 per cent. tax under the Reparations levy, and if you are dealing with special goods you have your 33⅓ percent. Then on top of that you may get this further tax. All that means that there is to be absolutely no trade with Germany. Some sort of way has to be devised for getting the indemnity, but not by goods. When you come to other parts of the world—any part likely to supply us with goods that come under the McKenna duty—you have the 33⅓ percent., and they may be liable to this additional 33⅓ percent. It would be interesting to hear from the Minister for Overseas Trade, what prospect he expects the representatives of his department have of pushing trade in foreign countries and building up trade with this country, in face of the difficulties raised by this resolution. Will he tell me honestly that these Resolutions are doing anything to-help him?

I remember a story told, I think by Artemus Ward, about a bull that was facing an engine. Artemus Ward's remark on the situation was "Little crittar, I admire your courage, but I despise your judgment." I am bound to say that I admire the candour of the hon. Member, but I cannot say that I attach very much importance to his judgment. To tell this Committee that he believes that British trade in the future is going to be encouraged and promoted by the imposition of tariffs to the extent laid down by these Resolutions is asking this Committee to believe even more than it is likely to swallow.

I should like to say that the Prime Minister, speaking at Maidstone on Saturday, said that one of the essential things was to bring down the cost of goods. I should like the Committee to consider to what extent the Bill to be founded on these Resolutions is going to assist us in bringing down the price of coal. The returns for material show that in South Wales timber and stores and things of that character cost no less than £1 per ton. I was informed by a colliery owner a short time ago that he had bought in foreign markets rails at about £8 to £9 a ton less than he could buy them in the British market. Now I understand that the Bill to be founded on these Resolutions will deprive the British coal owner of cheap rails and girders which are so essential for bringing down the cost of coal. As a matter of fact, wages are only one item in the cost of production in the coal fields today, and it is fair to say that the cost of stores has gone up in some instances 600 or 700 per cent. Therefore, if it is essential to bring down wages so as to give us cheaper coal it is also essential to bring down other costs. These resolutions are going to have the reverse effect. Instead of coal owners having the advantage of going to foreign markets to get cheaper girders, rails and tram wheels, they are to be deprived of that advantage. That is not going to help to cheapen coal. I know it may be said that if a coal owner going to the British market it will be encouraging British trade, and instead of the foreigner making rails and girders we shall manufacture these things in our own country. If in the initial stages the coal owners could buy rails and girders in a foreign market at a cheaper rate, the effect would be to bring down the price of coal, and the consequence would be that the manufacturer of rails and girders in this country would get coal at a cheaper rate, and assist him to compete with the foreigner. He will never be able to do that until he gets cheaper coal. As far as I can see these resolutions will deprive him of that advantage and instead of the British manufacturer getting a substantial reduction in the price of coal the price will remain at a far higher figure than he can pay and hold his own in the foreign market. That is a condition of affairs which is worthy of consideration. If the Prime Minister desires the cost of coal to come down he must not look merely to a cut in the wage of the worker; he must look also at the question of stores. When I tell the Committee of the wide difference there is in the cost of stores members will be astounded. In South Wales the cost worked out in the month of March on somewhere about 2,300,000 tons of coal at £2,200,000, while in the country to which I belong where they turned out very nearly as much coal the cost instead of being £1 per ton was only 6s. 8d. a ton. I was informed by a coal owner that one of the reasons why these costs were declining was simply because they had been able to get cheaper rails and girders in foreign markets and I submit that it would be better to let this industry get materials of this character from overseas for a period at least for the purpose of bringing down the price of coals to the consumer.

I want to give a practical illustration of how these proposals will work out. In recent times in this country we have had two new trades, one conected with the cinematograph business and the other with mechanical musical instruments such as the phonograph. The clock work materials for these phonographs are made in Switzerland and Germany. These are imported into this country and the completed instruments are made in three countries—in England, Switzerland, and Germany. When we import the motors into this country we have to pay 33⅓ per cent. on them.

We then have to go and compete with the world, especially with Switzerland. There is no depreciated currency in Switzerland. It is somewhat against us. We have to go into the markets of the world and sell our machines in competition with Switzerland and Germany, and yet under this procedure we are doing all we can to hamper our own manufacturers and our own traders instead of assisting them. If you are going to do overseas trade the fewer obstacles you put in the way of manufacturers the better. I give the Committee that particular illustration of a trade involving tens of thousands of machines, and this is not a trade in the machines alone, because we have built up in this country a great business in the manufacture of discs. If you do not sell the machines you do not do a large trade in the discs. This is one of the side issues that come in when you are interfering with the free flow of commerce.

I do not quite follow the argument of the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department when he says that the duty of 33⅓ per cent. imposed will not be an addition to the McKenna duties, because it would only apply where, in spite of the McKenna duty, the case would come within the definition of goods being sold at prices below the wholesale prices in this country. He said if they did come within that definition it was quite right and proper that the two duties should be imposed. I take it that is a fair summary of the arguments that he has used. What I want to ask is, Why should that apply in the case of the particular articles which come within the McKenna duties, and not apply to all articles? You may have cases where, owing to the great depreciation in the exchange of a particular country, the 33⅓ per cent. imposed will have no effect at all in protecting our own industry. Take the case of goods coming from Austria, where the currency is enormously depreciated. What effect will this duty have except to raise prices? It will have no effect in the way of safeguarding British industries, which is the purpose of the duty. On the other hand, why should goods which are quite accidentally subject to the McKenna duties have to bear this additional burden? Merchants who deal in those goods are going to have an additional burden cast on them which other business men will escape. This 33⅓ percent, ought not to

be imposed in addition to the McKenna duties. If you have a class of goods which are subject to the McKenna duties and also come from Germany you have this position—the German puts 100 per cent. on the price in order to allow for the reparation levy, which is 100 percent. duty, and on that value you get a duty of 33⅓ percent., and on top of all that you get this 33⅓ per cent. under this Bill. Therefore the poor business man to whom any of these goods are essential in business is going to be mulcted of this 100 percent. first, then the other 33⅓ percent, of the 200 percent., and then a further 33⅓ percent. Is that treating the British business man with any sense of fairness? There is no excuse for it. The hon. Members says, "Oh, that will happen in cases where the currency is so depreciated that we cannot compete with the foreign trader." But, admittedly in other cases, where the currency may be so depreciated that this duty will have no effect, they will be subject to 33⅓ percent, duty only. Why this differentiation, and this advantage which is going to be given to traders in certain classes of articles and not to others? This is dealing with the matter in the most arbitrary fashion.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 129; Noes. 41.

Division No. 111.]

AYES.

[2.28 a.m.

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

Clough, Robert

Hood, Joseph

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Coats, Sir Stuart

Hopkins, John W. W.

Armitage, Robert

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Atkey, A. R.

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Cope, Major William

Hurd, Percy A.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Barker, Major Robert H.

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Barlow, Sir Montague

Dean, Commander P. T.

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Kidd, James

Barnston, Major Harry

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Betterton, Henry B.

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Lindsay, William Arthur

Bigland, Alfred

Falcon, Captain Michael

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

Forestier-Walker, L.

Lort-Williams, J.

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James 1.

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

Manville, Edward

Brassey, H. L. C.

Goff, Sir R. Park

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, w.)

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Brittain, sir Harry

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Murchison, C. K.

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Nail, Major Joseph

Brown, Major D. C.

Gregory, Holman

Neal, Arthur

Bruton, Sir James

Hailwood, Augustine

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Cautley, Henry Strother

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W).

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Peei, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Simm, M. T.

Whitla, Sir William

Perkins, Walter Frank

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Williams, C. (Tavistock)

Polson, Sir Thomas A.

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon, Claud

Prescott, Major W. H.

Sutherland, Sir William

Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Remer, J. R.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Wise, Frederick

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Rodger, A. K.

Townley, Maximilian G

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H

Col. Leslie Wilson and Mr.

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

McCurdy.

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Hayday, Arthur

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Hayward, Evan

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor-(Barnstaple)

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Hinds, John

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hirst, G. H.

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Spencer, George A.

Briant, Frank

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Kiley, James Daniel

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Lunn, William

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Wintringham, Thomas

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.).

France, Gerald Ashburner

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Gillis, William

Morgan, Major D. Watts

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Glanville, Harold James

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Mr. Hogge and Mr. G. Thorne.

Grundy, T. W.

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

I beg to move, to leave out the words "an Order by the Board of Trade has been made," and to insert instead thereof the words "a Resolution has been passed by the House of Commons."

This Amendment, I suggest, is one of the most important on the Paper. The object of it is much the same as the object which the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord Robert Cecil) evidently had in view in the Amendment standing in his name before mine, and, as far as I am concerned, I do not mind which the Government adopts. They are not quite the same, but they are designed to achieve, the same object, that is, to secure Parliamentary control over this business of putting on import duties. One of the chief foundation stones of our Constitutional liberty is the House of Commons control over finance, and in order to make sure that in all cases the House of Commons shall secure the control of finance it has been laid down that a Bill such as is going to be introduced shall be preceded by Resolutions of this kind. That is, I take it, an admission that the House of Commons must exercise its control over finance with the greatest care and must not hand it over to anyone else. I propose in the Amendment to take out of the hands of the Board of Trade and give to the House of Commons itself the right to say exactly which class of articles is going to be subjected to these particular duties. We have all had experience during the War of the abuses which have crept into our Governmental system by the withdrawal of Treasury and Parliamentary control. According to the Government scheme we are going to have handed over to a Government Department the right to select the particular article which is going to be taxed under this Bill. If the House of Commons hands this over to the Board of Trade or any Government Department they are, I suggest, abdicating the questions they are sent here to perform. The principle underlying Parliamentary control is vital and to allow the Board of Trade to do as the Government propose they should be allowed to do is to allow a Government Department to encroach upon the function of the House of Commons, and not only to allow a Government Department, but to allow the Executive. We have been suffering far too much from this in recent years, and it is time now that we should put a stop to it. This House of Commons, I think I am right in saying, has been more docile and more inclined to hand over its duty to Government Departments than any of its predecessors, and if this particular Parliament is prepared to hand over this duty to the Board of Trade, then it is abdicating all the functions it was sent here to perform, and is really degrading itself in the eyes of the whole world. I do not think that is at all putting it too strongly. It would be a grave dereliction of duty if the House of Commons allowed this question of taxation to go out of its hands. If my Amendment is adopted it will retain in its own hands the power to do that, and it will be carrying out the functions which have been carried out from time immemorial, and which, as I have said, Las been the method by which the House of Commons has always associated the liberty of the people against encroachment from all sides. I hope, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman will give this his favourable and sympathetic consideration.

I am very happy to support this Amendment because I believe that during the War the whole business community was absolutely sick of the system of licensing at the sweet will of the Board of Trade. All hon. Members will agree that when the licensing system was in force during the War and the months after the Armistice, the whole business community resented it intensely. I want to make it quite clear. I am not making any general attack upon the civil servants of this country. I believe that we are blessed with one of the finest Civil Services in Europe, but there is bound to be a certain amount of involuntary favour shown towards that crowd of manufacturers which is the most highly insistent and the most highly organised. Human nature being what it is they must get the most attention. This is what will happen, without imputing anything against the honesty of the Civil Service, and still less against anything of the sort being tolerated, if he can help it, by the President of the Board of Trade. But it is bound to come. Overburdened officials will be still more overworked. The first come will be the first served. There will be great complications, and, of necessity, there is bound to be injustices if the matter is left to a Government Department. Hon. Members on the other side are never tired of saying that they do not want Government control and Government interference in private enterprise and industry. Here we are asking for that control to be in the hands of the people's representatives and taken out of the hands of the bureaucracy. Those hon. Members, who are never tired of inveighing against any kind of Government control, ought to support us in this Amendment.

I regard this as a very serious and important Amendment. I have not spoken on any other Amendment because I do not share the somewhat dramatic, and, in some cases rather forced views expressed by some hon. Members that they have discovered something in these Resolutions, for the first time, showing that they are tending towards Protection. I discovered that some time ago, and that is the reason why I announced on Monday that I should vote against them, because I think that they are tending in that direction and are not carrying out the Government's pledges. All those who really regard the influence and the authority of the House of Commons over these grave and important matters of taxation ought to support an Amendment of this character. I have had some experience of the inside working of the Board of Trade. I have a great admiration for the present President, but I think that he ought to find some comfort in this Amendment because his speeches to night have not really been characterised by that modesty which is one of his charms, but he has also told us that he does not expect—whereas we do—that he will rise to much greater heights in the political world, and he has shown a pathetic want of confidence in the results of the proposals which the Government are putting forward. He has told the Committee that he does not think that this Resolution will be used very often, and there was a marked declension in the spirits of the supporters of the Resolution when that declaration was made. I can understand the force of his remarks with regard to the particular part of the Resolution dealing with dumping, but I cannot quite understand what he meant when he said that he did not think that this part of the Resolution would be very much used when he was speaking of the collapsed exchanges. What becomes of the exhibition of the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. G. Terrell)? What becomes of the statements behind this exhibition of the number of alleged unemployed, about which, at the time of the exhibition, we could get no particulars from the promoters? I ask the President of the Board of Trade to take some en- couragement from this Amendment, and to put in the authority of the House of Commons—where there are many supporters of the Resolution, and enthusiastic supporters—full confidence as to the way in which this Resolution will be carried out. Seriously, it is not, I think, at this time of day, and after the experience of the War, desirable, in any business man's opinion, that any Department of State should have the power to show its preference and bestow its gifts—for that is what it will practically amount to—to certain industries, or to a certain section of industries. That power and discretion ought to be kept within the province of the House of Commons. This matter requires the serious attention of the Government and of the Committee, and for that reason I must not hesitate to support the Amendment.

May I say one word on a point which has been made by the hon. Gentleman opposite, and in view particularly of the statement made earlier in the evening by the President of the Board of Trade. He made it clear, first, that any goods which had undergone a manufacturing process of any sort might come within these categories, and, secondly, that the question which the President of the Board of Trade would judge would be the effect on employment in making these goods, and not the effect on that employment of putting a duty on these goods. That is a very important point, and it clears up a thing which I had not known before, that the Board of Trade will not consider the effect of these duties on the whole employment in the country, but only on a particular trade. He made it clear, for instance, that duties may be put on to ship plates and manufactured materials like bars and billets, and so on, without any regard, so far as the Board of Trade is concerned, to the effect on unemployment in the shipbuilding, the locomotive, and the engineering industries. It is a commonplace to any of us who know anything about trade or to anybody who took part in the old fiscal controversies before the war that the very last thing you can see at first sight is the ultimate effect of any duty. It seems to have one effect, but in the result it affects employment in other trades that at first sight do not seem to have any connection with it. If the Board of Trade is going to confine its' purview to the question of immediate employment, that is making a similar article in this country, it seems to me an absolute necessity that this House should be in a position to look at the question from the wider point of view. At any rate, if there are two processes, first that the Board of Trade has to consider the matter with those who think their employment is to be affected, and then has to put forward a Resolution to this House, there will be a double check. The House will consider it then from the wider point of view. Articles will not then appear on the list issued by the Board of Trade without any chance of review by this House. The general effect of these duties is so hard to understand, and the fact that the Board of Trade is not going to look into the wider effect of the duties on employment makes it essential that these matters should be done, not only on the recommendation of the Board of Trade, but after review by this House. I therefore support the Amendment.

I intervene at this moment because it may be useful if I should say what I have to say without any desire to hasten the end of this particular Debate. The point that has been raised is, of course, a point of substance and there is a good deal to be said for it, but the practical difficulties in the way are such as make it impossible for me to accept the Amendment, and I will explain to the Committee exactly what I mean. First of all, I might say, with regard to what the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) said about the licensing system, that that system is troublesome and very difficult. What is the procedure in regard to investigating cases where dumping is alleged? The question has to be investigated before a Committee constituted for the purpose. I quite feel that the constitution of that Committee is a matter of very great importance, and I hope to be able to be in a position to give some indication to the House while the Bill is still before it as to the constitution and, at any rate, some of the names of that Committee, because the judicial function which is entrusted to it is one of very great importance. It has to decide when an application is made to it whether that application does bring the applicant within the terms of the Act of Parliament.

Yes; and the Board of Trade will act on the advice of the Committee. The Order made by the Board of Trade will be laid—I am giving you what the provision of the Bill as it will be presented says—before the Commons House of Parliament as soon as may be after it is made for a period of 21 days during which that House has sat, and then, if the House presents an Address within that time making void the Order, the Order will be annulled without prejudice to anything that has been done under it. The practical difficulty which I am coming to is simply this, that the House of Commons is not always in Session. If, by the mercy of Heaven, we escape an Autumn Session this year, the first of these inquiries may be held under the Act in the summer, and it may be that cases will be made out and action will have to be taken. If this Amendment were accepted it must happen that a period of many months must elapse between the time when an industry had had its case proved and the time when the alleviation allowed to it under the Act of Parliament could be given to it. That is the practical difficulty and I confess I see no way round it. But, of course, this is a matter that can be raised again when the Bill is before the House when hon. Members will have had an opportunity of studying it and will then be more familiar with the procedure that is proposed.

3.0 A.M.

I am not at all sure that it is merely an absence of enthusiasm that is shown by the President of the Board of Trade. He seems rather to have a look of fixed gloom when he comes to talk about these Resolutions, and I can imagine that the difficulties that he has enumerated are not the only difficulties. I can imagine that there will be a perfect cloud of people bombarding him about those duties. All the industries suffering from the effects of collapsed exchanges or other causes will come and try to prove their cases. The President of the Board of Trade will never know what is going to happen next. An Order that he imposes one week will have to be followed by another Order for another industry another week. It will be like nothing on earth. You will never be able to tell what collapse is going to make legislation or an Order necessary. If I were the President of the Board of Trade I would welcome this tangled and difficult business being taken out of my hands. I do not consider the constitutional issue, but from the point of view of practical politics I cannot conceive that the Board of Trade or a Committee can have much hope of satisfying anybody. To-day you will have an Order which to-morrow may be cancelled, and the day after you may have to make a new Order. I do not think the President of the Board of Trade appreciates what an enormous crowd of people will be on the doorstep of the Board of Trade. Instead of looking to themselves for their own re recovery, they look to the shelter of the Government. The President of the Board of Trade will have to have his favourites and you cannot have favourites without victims, and for every favourite the President of the Board of Trade makes by an order he will create many more victims, probably consumers. It is not for me to read the mind of the President of the Board of Trade, but I can imagine that if he could speak from conviction and not have to rely on the shifts and devices which are inherent in this measure he would say to a good many of these industries, "Look here, the Government are not only spent up, but they are overburdened. For Heaven's sake retain your freedom and do not come near us. We have got too much to do." This peddling way of making orders to protect first one industry, and then finding that another wants protection, and having protected the two to have 102 coming along because they want to be on the same terms, is not only pandemonium, but it is pure protection. It ought to be done by Resolution of the House. The question of what will happen when the House is not sitting ought not to stand in the way. For the Board of Trade to be incessantly making orders which teach industries not to lean on themselves, but to depend on the Government, is fatal, and for that reason I support the Amendment.

I am sorry my right hon. Friend is not able to indicate a more favourable attitude towards this Amendment. I quite realise, after what he has said, that the acceptance of the Amendment is out of the question tonight, but I hope before the Bill comes before the House he and the Government will make up their minds that it is a proper Amendment to adopt. I am not over enamoured of the various Advisory Committees which are now set up by Government Departments, and I am certainly not enamoured of any Committee which is to propose taxation. I cannot imagine a more responsible task for any Committee to undertake. What this proposed body will have to do is to decide whether or not employment in the country is seriously affected. That is the proper task, I would almost say the proper prerogative, of the House of Commons. I do not attach very much importance to the suggestions that the right hon. Gentleman will find himself overburdened with applications, and the business involved in deciding them, because even if the decision is left to the House of Commons my right hon. Friend and his officials will have to go into the matter and decide how they are going to advise the House. The point I take is that this Committee, if they are to assist my right hon. Friend, will be really carrying out a duty which the House of Commons ought to perform. It may not be desirable that we should spend any more time in discussing the matter this evening, but I think my right hon. Friend will appreciate that when the Bill comes before the House there will be a good many people looking to him to put the House of Commons in its proper place. There cannot be a case for protecting any industry so urgent that the industry must be brought within the scope of the Bill within, say, three months of the expiry of one Session and the beginning of another. If there is any industry in such a state of jeopardy it would be possible for the Government to take time by the forelock and summon the House—if there was proper work for it to do. I am not prepared to hand over to any Advisory Committee a task which I think the House ought to perform.

There seems to be a general impression among Members on the other side of the gangway that it would be a very easy matter to get one of these Orders through. I think it would be as well to state a concrete case as to the difficulties of getting an Order of this sort. I would draw attention to the case of accessories and component parts of motor cars, motor cycles, and motor tricycles, subject to an import duty of 33⅓ per cent., under Section 12 of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915. Tyres were specifically excluded from that on account of an agreement with the United States rubber manufacturers designed to prevent the possibility of such rubber goods getting into the hands of the enemy. The reason for the exclusion of motor tyres from that Order has been done away with for two years, but although the manufacturers of tyres have made many representations to the President of the Board of Trade, and have had the leverage of very extensive unemployment in the industry, they have not been able to get that particular Order rescinded. That shows that the fears of hon. Members that it will be an easy matter to "lobby," as it were, the officials of the Board of Trade to get new Orders passed is entirely unwarranted.

On an earlier Amendment it seemed as though the role of the Imperial party had passed to this side of the Committee, and on this Amendment it would seem that the defenders of the Constitution are to pass over to this side also. The defence or excuse of the right hon. Gentleman for resisting this Amendment seemed hardly to improve matters. It rather suggested a revival of the ancient Star Chamber, to inflict penalties on the community, irrespective of this House. In view of the appeal made from the other side, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see, before this Bill becomes law, whether he cannot restore to the House, or retain in the hands of the House, the constitutional right of taxing His Majesty's subjects. Reference has been made to the committee of business men to be set up, and all business men have respect for the probity of business men, but in these days of trusts and combines it would be very difficult to get a body of business men who are not unconsciously influenced in their decisions by interests which are connected one with the other. The Minister of Health, speaking on this Bill, said they would have to decide with regard to dumping that the sale of the goods here at low prices was part of a policy to ruin industry. Who is to decide the motive that is behind the policy which sends goods to this country? Surely that is putting a great and a difficult responsibility on a committee of even the most eminent business men. Surely it is the right and the duty of this House to say what classes of goods are sent here with the object of undermining an industry, and to judge of motive should not be left to the trade competitors, but be reserved to the House, which has the interests of the consumer as well as the merchant at heart.

It is the function of the House of Commons to raise the taxation that is necessary in this country to carry on the affairs of the Government. Whether the tax that is being imposed here is a tax in order to prevent dumping or to protect industries in this country, I take it that the bulk of the tax that is being raised will be applied by the Government of the time to the purposes to which taxation is usually devoted, the carrying on of the affairs of the Government. But according to the explanation given by the President of the Board of Trade a Committee, the exact constitution of which he said he could not explain yet, was going to consider the particular industries where complaint was made to the Government or to the Board of Trade by a certain class of manufacturers in a particular class of trade or industry, and that this Committee would examine the facts that were being submitted to them and consider and report whether it was necessary that that particular industry or trade should come within the scope of the Order. The Order will be laid on the Table of the House for 21 days. I should like to know, and I think most Members of the House of Commons would be anxious to know, why should the Board of Trade have the power to set up a Committee of this character. We are told by the Members of the other side and by the President of the Board of Trade that the necessity for this is the articles which were going to be sent in from other countries—foreign competition. I remember a a particular occasion in Glasgow where the home trade was actually short of the necessary raw material in shipbuilding to build the ships. It was not because foreign competition was holding up raw material; it was not because they were unable to get goods from abroad. It was because in the industry connected with the shipbuilding supplying the raw material, ship plates, you had a certain ring formed with the object of keeping the prices of plates up. That ring was able to get one of the steel works closed and paid the shareholders in the firm 5 per cent. During the time that factory was closed the shipbuilding yards on the Clyde were unable to get the plates to build the ships. Men were walking the streets idle, unable to be employed because the raw material was not forthcoming, and not until the shipbuilders brought in ship plates from abroad at cheaper prices than the ring was charging were they able to bring down the price of plates and get on with the work and provide employment for the men on the Clyde. I want to know what is this Committee going to do if, by the setting up of a protective tariff to keep ship plates, for example, from coming into this country, you are going to allow the ring that is already in existence in the steel manufactures—the manufacture of ship plates—or if not allow, the conditions are such that that ring is able to lay down a price which brings up the price of their plates very near to that at which they would be imported, from abroad, plus the tax you put on? You are immediately putting a tax on home industry, not by a vote of the House of Commons, but by an Order passed by the Board of Trade. That is not constitutionalism. It is handing it over into the hands of the permanent officials of the Board of Trade. Hon. Members would be the very first to object to any bureaucracy if a Labour Government were in power having that same power to impose taxation upon industry. I suggest to the President of the Board of Trade that, as he seems already to possess the information regarding the constitution of this Committee, or, if not in detail, at least a fairly general idea of how the Committee is going to be set up and how it is going to operate, the House should be taken into his confidence so that it can discuss with some knowledge what is likely to take place and to be forced upon the country. The Amendment that has been moved is an Amendment that keeps the control of taxation in the House of Commons. Everyone in this Committee can remember the great agitation that was carried on, participated in by Members who are even now sitting upon the Front Bench, to prevent another Chamber from exercising any control over taxation in the country, that their interference in taxation was unconstitutional, and an election was fought upon that. The power of the other Chamber was curbed and they were told flatly by a Bill what were their particular functions as regards finance in this country. Is this House of Commons and the country to be told that that which you have refused another Chamber to have any power over is to be handed over into the hands of a body of permanent officials? Hon. Members who were prominent in that agitation now come down and walk into the Lobby behind the President of the Board of Trade and the Leader of the House to hand over, not to hereditary governors of the country but to permanent officials, to bureaucrats, the whole power of taxation with regard to certain industries in the country. This is only a sample of what the country is going to get from the Government, not governing the country, not even pretending to govern the country, but actually working in the interests of the trusts and combines that have grown up in this country during the War. I submit to the House that the people of this country still believe in democracy, still believe, as the elected Members of the House, that they are placing in the hands of the Members the control of the democratic constitution. They never imagined when they returned a Coalition Government, with all their pledges and programme of reforms, that they were sending that party here to hand the country over not to a democratic institution but to a bureaucracy and control of a number of rings and trusts.

Before we leave this most important matter I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question which has not been put to him so far, whether he can give us any precedent for what he is now proposing to do? Can he give us any precedent in the history of this country for putting into the hands of a Department of State, and into the hands of permanent officials, the right to tax certain industries? [An HON. MEMBER: "Ship money."] An hon. Member says "ship money," but I do not think

that that was deliberately done by Parliament to put power into the hands of permanent officials. Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any precedent, and can he point to any country where this has been done? It appears that we are now well in for Protection in this country; we are embarking upon a course of Protection, and we must at least, I think, have the prudence to observe the same rules as have been observed by other Protectionist countries. I should like to know if the right hon. Gentleman can point to any Protectionist country, having free institutions, where the Parliament of that country has handed over the right of taxing its industries to permanent officials? I have no doubt that something of the same kind may have been done in Tsarist Russia and other absolutist countries, but we have not quite come to that yet. An hon. and gallant Member on the other side spoke of these officials being called upon to say whether damage had been done to industry. But it is not even that: it would be bad enough if it were. They are called upon to say whether an industry is likely to be seriously affected, and if a body of permanent officials decide that it is likely to be permanently affected then we have to be subjected to this taxation. The right hon. Gentleman tells us that the Bill will embody the principle of House of Common's control, but he already foresees that that principle will not actually come into operation because it will be done in the autumn vacation when the House of Commons will not be here, and it will be done without referring the matter to the House of Commons. Therefore, I ask him to tell us whether he can quote any real precedent for such a procedure in any other country whatever.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put: "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 128; Noes, 36.

Division No. 112.]

AYES.

[3.25 a.m.

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Betterton, Henry B.

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Barker, Major Robert H.

Bigland, Alfred

Armitage, Robert

Barlow, Sir Montague

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Atkey, A. R.

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Barnston, Major Harry

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Hailwood, Augustine

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Poison, Sir Thomas A.

Brassey, H. L. C.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Prescott, Major W. H.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Brown, Major D. C.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Remer, J. R.

Bruton, Sir James

Hinds, John

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Hood, Joseph

Rodger, A. K.

Cautley, Henry Strother

Hopkins, John W. W.

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W).

Hotchkln, Captain Stafford Vere

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Hurd, Percy A.

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Clough, Robert

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Coats, Sir Stuart

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Simm, M. T.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Cope, Major William

Kidd, James

Sutherland, Sir William

Curzon, Captain Viscount

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Townley, Maximilian G,

Dean, Commander P. T.

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Doyle, N. Grattan

Lort-Williams, J.

Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.)

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Manville, Edward

Whitla, Sir William

Falcon, Captain Michael

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

Forestier-Walker, L.

Murchison, C. K.

Williams, C. (Tavistock)

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Nail, Major Joseph

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Neal, Arthur

Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Goff, Sir R. Park

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Wise, Frederick

Green, Albert (Derby)

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Col. Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.

Gregory, Holman

Perkins, Walter Frank

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. F. D.

Hayday, Arthur

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Hayward, Evan

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hirst, G. H.

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Hogge, James Myles

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Briant, Frank

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Spencer, George A.

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Thomson, T. (Middlesborough, West)

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Kiley, James Daniel

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lunn, William

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Wintringham, Thomas

Gillis, William

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Glanville, Harold James

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Grundy, T. W.

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Major Mackenzie Wood and Major Barnes.

Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 121; Noes, 43.

Division No. 113.]

AYES.

[3 34 a. m.

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.)

Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Brown, Major D. C.

Falcon, Captain Michael

Armitage, Robert

Bruton, Sir James

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Atkey, A. R.

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Forestier-Walker, L.

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Cautley, Henry Strother

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)

Goff, Sir R. Park

Barker, Major Robert H.

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Green, Albert (Derby)

Barlow, Sir Montague

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Clough, Robert

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Barnston, Major Harry

Coats, Sir Stuart

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Gregory, Holman

Betterton, Henry B.

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Hailwood, Augustine

Bigland, Alfred

Cope, Major William

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

Davidson, J. C. C.(Hemel Hempstead)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Dean, Commander P. T.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Brassey, H. L. C.

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Hood, Joseph

Hopkins, John W. W.

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Townley, Maximilian G.

Kurd, Percy A.

Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Perkins, Walter Frank

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

Kidd, James

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Whitla, Sir William

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Poison, Sir Thomas A.

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Prescott, Major W. H.

Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

Williams, C. (Tavistock)

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

Remer, J. R.

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

Lort-Willlams, J.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James 1.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Wise, Frederick

Manville, Edward

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Morltz

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Simm, M. T.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Murchison, C. K.

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Mr. McCurdy and Colonel Leslie Wilson.

Nail, Major Joseph

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Neal, Arthur

Sutherland, Sir William

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Hayward, Evan

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Hinds, John

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hirst, G. H.

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Hogge, James Myles

Rodger, A. K.

Briant, Frank

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Spencer, George A.

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Thomson, T. Middlesbrough, West)

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Kiley, James Daniel

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Lunn, William

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Wintringham, Thomas

France, Gerald Ashburner

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Gillis, William

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Glanville, Harold James

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Major Mackenzie Wood and Major Barnes.

Grundy, T. W.

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Hayday, Arthur

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

In paragraph ( a ), leave out the words "cost of production thereof," and to insert instead thereof the words

"current sterling equivalent of the wholesale price at the works charged for goods of the class or description for consumption in the country of manufacture or, if no such goods are sold for consumption in that country, the price which, having regard to the prices charged for goods as near as may he similar when so sold or when sold for exportation to other countries, would be so charged if the goods were sold in that country."

My attention has been drawn to an Amendment on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Oldham (Sir W. Barton). I confess it seems to be only a drafting Amendment. The Resolution as it stands refers to prices "below the cost and production thereof," and it defines that later on in the very words which are proposed to be put in here. Therefore it seems to me that the Amendment is in substance the same, and, inasmuch as it really takes the definition from the end of the Resolution, and puts it in at an earlier place the effect will be the same. But if the hon. Member wishes to argue the point, I shall be glad to hear him.

I should like to argue the point, or, rather, I should say I should like to explain. The Resolution says that this duty should be placed on goods sold below the cost of production. The foundation of that is the wholesale price at the works. Well, whatever the wholesale price at the works may be, it is certainly not the cost of production. I think that must be perfectly clear to anybody. To say that the cost of production shall be denned as something which it clearly is not is an absurdity which adds to the difficulty. If the President of the Board of Trade can get up and say that the cost of production can be defined as the wholesale price at the works, then I am willing to allow a bad Bill to go on.

I think I understand the point. The hon. Member wishes to argue that certain words in the Resolution are nonsensical, but the practical effect of his Amendment would be exactly the same as if the Resolution were carried as it stands.

I have given my best attention to it, and it appears to me that in certain cases it may have the effect of increasing the charges, so I am afraid it would not be in order in that case, and therefore I cannot accept it.

May I make an appeal to hon. Members opposite to expedite, as far as they can, our progress with this Resolution? I am in the recollection of the Committee when I say that the Government altered its intentions in regard to the conduct of these Resolutions at the request of and to suit the convenience of hon. Gentlemen opposite. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Not their convenience exclusively, but with the clear understanding, expressed at this Table by me and not challenged, that if we could not finish at 8.15 last night we should at any rate finish early after 11 o'clock—at a not unreasonable hour. I venture to make an appeal to hon. Members to act up to the full spirit of the arrangement that was made and allow us to have the decision as early as possible.

With regard to what the Leader of the House has said, the point is "at a not unreasonably late hour," and that, I think, can be defined as within the limits of the hour at which we are sitting now. After we have sat beyond half-past 12, it is very unreasonable to ask us not to sit longer, because it is very inconvenient to leave the House inside certain hours, and my right hon. Friend knows that. He may take it from us that there is no deliberate intention to prolong this Debate. None of the Debates on any of the Amendments that have been moved have taken longer than an hour, and I understand that the Amendment which is now called is practically the last that is being put from the Chair. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I am speaking with knowledge, because I consulted the Chairman as to what the Chair hopes to do, for the convenience, obviously, of Members; but what I am going to suggest is, that there are three or four Amendments on page 1687 which we are quite prepared to give without much discussion if we are allowed to express our views on them in the Division Lobby. If that were done, I see no reason why we should not rise within a very short time.

I am occasionally accused of prolonging the proceedings in this House. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, never!"] I have sat through the whole of these proceedings to-night, and I think the Leader of the House will find, if he consults the President of the Board of Trade, that the House has been put in possession of some invaluable information. We have had an insight into the Bill that will be of great value to our constituents. We have been informed that raw material will be taxed and that food will not be taxed.

I think the discussion has been extremely useful. There are one or two things which we need yet to find out. There is no desire to delay the proceedings, but we are seeking information, and I am glad to say we are getting it.

Surely there are enough Members sufficiently interested in passing the Resolutions to remain. Members cannot obtain tube trains to their homes until probably 5 o'clock. If Members get information from the President of the Board of Trade with regard to the remaining Amendments, I see no reason why the House should not rise by 5 o'clock, or shortly after that.

In moving my Amendment I should like to say that of all the problems to put before a Committee I know of none more difficult than deciding whether an article which has undergone some depreciation in another country can be profitably manufactured in this country. I have often been down to Birmingham and it is no uncommon experience there for a trader to go into one factory in Birmingham and buy goods and sell them to a competing factory in the same town. That happens with goods that are British made and made in a manufacturing centre. What is the object of the Committee, however, talented it may be, or whatever its composition? This Committee will have the task of determining the rate of profit which a manufacturer should be allowed to make. As there are not two factories where they make the same amount of profit, this Committee will have to decide what will be reasonable. Where they have an up-to-date plant, and able to work with low wages, would that be the measure, or would you take a concern where they are not up to date and only making a small margin of profit? The task is practically an impossible one. I suggest that, not alone for the good of the individual trader, but for the good of commerce as a whole, this paragraph or Sub-section be deleted from the Bill.

This raises the whole question of exchange, and I do not propose to deal with it at great length because it formed the basis of discussion over two whole days. To suit the convenience of the Members opposite and to give them full opportunity of being able to consider the operation of the exchange and the operation of this duty in relation to the whole nexus of the proposals, we extended the Debate over an extra day. The whole question was very fully dealt with both by the President of the Board of Trade in opening, by the Minister of Health, and by myself in my own speech yesterday. The point is a simple and a short one. It is a fact that the depreciation of the exchange and the difference between the internal and the external value is creating a bounty on exports which is serious and, in our view, an unfair and unreasonable form of competition to ask manufacturers to meet. The provision is designed against that disadvantage. That will be the test applied to any industry which seeks to come within the test. I do not think the Committee will be unduly dismayed at the fears entertained by the hon. Member for Whitechapel (Mr. Kiley). I submit that these are perfectly reasonable and sensible words to put in. The test is, are these goods coming in at a price which is such that people cannot compete with them in this country at a reasonable rate of profit? [An HON. MEMBER: "What is a reasonable rate?"] Unless there is a fair rate of profit manufacturers will not be able to continue. I submit it is a perfectly reasonable test to apply, and a Committee of practical men will have no difficulty in applying it.

It is one of the main subjects covered by these Resolutions and deals with it in a comprehensive way. I quite agree with my hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Trade that there is no need to discuss the subject in detail. It was very amply discussed yesterday and the previous day, and so far as I have any views on the matter I expressed them at some length yesterday. There is only one matter to which I would like to refer. The hon. Member for Govan (Mr. N. Maclean) speaking earlier suggested that yesterday there had been some contrast between my speech and my vote, that I had spoken in one sense and voted in another. I am sorry if I gave that impression. In speaking yesterday I stated I was supporting the Government on the two subjects covered by these Resolutions with regard to key industries and to dumping; but I was opposed to them on the proposals with regard to the exchanges. I voted yesterday on the first Resolution which covered the key industries. On this subject, which I think of vital importance and very far-reaching and which I think will have very detrimental results to the trade and industry of the country, I cannot see my way other than by voting against it.

4.0 A.M.

I support this Amendment because the proposal of a flat rate duty is absolutely futile to cure the evil which it intends to cure. I, amongst a great many other Members of this House, visited an exhibition which has now become notorious. I was shown round the exhibition by the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. G. Terrell) and some of his friends. Having examined the exhibits, I asked the question whether the 33 would be of any value to deal with the hardships, and their answer was certainly not, absolutely useless and futile, There are one or two instances here where the difference between the price of the British article and the foreign article is, perhaps, only 40 or 50 per cent., but in the great majority it will be well over 100 per cent. What is the use of putting on a flat rate duty of 33⅓ per cent. to cure differences which range from 20 or 30 per cent. to 300 per cent? It simply means that some manufacturers, when the difference is only about 30 or 40 per cent., will get some benefit, but the others will get no benefit at all. It will simply mean putting up the price of the articles of the consumer in this country and will not remedy the difficulties. I listened to the Minister of Health describing the industrial situation the other day as something like a "business Bedlam." I have come to the conclusion that he and those who are running this measure are supporting it as inmates of that Bedlam and not as the representatives of the interests of the country.

I do not think that it is possible to dispose of this Amendment in the summary way in which the hon. Gentleman has done. This is one of the most important Amendments put forward this evening, and no discussion, in my opinion, has been so fruitful in registering opinion from the Government. This Amendment is really a vital one. The statement that an extra day has been given for the purpose of enabling us to discuss this question is not borne out by the fact. One has only to look at the OFFICIAL REPORT to find that one of the days was entirely taken up by explanations from the supporters of the right hon. Gentleman as to why they continued to support the Government. So there is nothing in that argument. What does the Resolution propose? It proposes to take the powers of taxation away from the ken of the House and to place those powers in the hands of the Board of Trade. We moved an Amendment that certain things should be done by the House of Commons. That was rejected, and, in consequence, the Board of Trade has secured the powers in its own hands. The Board of Trade has now to decide these matters. It has first to decide that the price at which some article is being sold is too low by reason of the depreciation in the value of exchange in the country of origin. On what grounds will the Board of Trade frame that opinion? Suppose, for example, that a thing comes from Germany, and suppose that the cause of its cheapness is not that the market has depreciated, but that Germany is satisfied with less profits or has a better organisation for manufacture than we have. Prices are rising in Germany. It is quite possible that prices may rise still further, and that you will have articles sold here at a low price, not because of the depreciation in currency at all, but because the exporting manufacturer accepts much lower rates of profit. How can that be ascertained? All you are called on to decide is that the lower price is due to the depreciation in the exchange. How is that to be ascertained unless you send qualified agents abroad to investigate the process of manufacture and the machinery by which the prices are arrived at? I cannot understand how anybody can come to a decision in accordance with the Resolution. Supposing stocks are bought at one rate of exchange and then the rate of exchange varies. It may well be that a man who has bought at one rate does not make allowance for the difference of cost caused by the variation of exchanges. The hon. Member for West Leyton (Mr. Newbould) put the point of the absurdity of a flat rate tax when you are dealing with exchanges such as world exchanges, and at present no answer at all has been received from the Government. This is a fatal objection to the Bill. Suppose, for instance, that an article comes to this country from France. The exchange there has depreciated, and the Board of Trade may decide that this article is to be subjected to the 33⅓ per cent. tax. But similar articles from Poland, where the exchange has depreciated, say 50 times as much, comes in at a much lower price. That article is only going to be subject to a proportionately lower duty, and instead of its being an automatic arrangement by which the rate of exchange is balanced by the rate of the duty, you have exactly the reverse. There can be no answer to that. I suggest that the Committee should take into account this fact, and that the Government should produce the answer, if there is one. Take the case of Japan, where, I believe, the exchange is against us. If you go to this dumping exhibition and talk to these people, go to the Japanese, who are the main offenders. There is no provision in this Bill for dealing with Japan. On the contrary, I suppose that we ought to give them something for sending their articles over in accordance with the arrangement.

Then there is this extraordinary phrase. The standard by which these goods are to be guaged is the price I doubt whether any such phrase has ever been put in a business document before. What are "similar goods"? That question was put to the Government the other day and no answer given. Take for example, barometers. You can get German barometers at very low prices, but the English barometer which is manufactured, is it "similar goods"? It may be very much more superior, but the price at which it is being manufactured is automatically the price by which the price of the German article is to be fixed. Will the hon. Gentleman give us any idea of what is meant by this expression? The very reason which the foreign manufacturer succeeds in the English markets is very often because he has succeeded in producing which serves a common, general, useful purpose, and the same purpose for which the British article is too clumsy. Is that a similar article? because, if so, the British public will be debarred from enjoying its share of the manufactured articles which come in from abroad? What is the profit to the manufacturer? I see that the Leader of the House has just come in. He must have had a good deal to do with the provision of these Resolutions. We were told by him some time ago that the day for which they had looked forward had arrived, but the Leader of the House has never had the courage to explain to hon. Members any reasons for the Resolutions before us. He was here when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) made his speech, and although a very excellent reply was made by the distinguished Gentleman who represents the Department of Overseas Trade, we might have expected the Leader of the House to reply. His interjections in Debate are limited to "I move that the Question be now put." That really is the best case that can be made for these Resolutions, because if questions are asked no answer can be made that will hold water. This House is not going to be given power to decide what articles are to be put in the schedule; that is to be in the hands of the Board of Trade. They have to decide it on the basis of profit which British manufacturers are to make. What rate of profit? The hon. Gentleman says "a reasonable rate of profit," and when we ask what that is, he says, "A fair rate of profit." That is all we will ever know, because the House of Commons by its vote to-night has abrogated its power in the matter. How are you to decide the prices? What are the similar articles to which these articles are to be compared; and what is the profit which is to be the criterion for the Board of Trade in making up the schedule?

Has the right hon. Gentleman really considered what will be the effect of paragraph ( b ) of the second Resolution on the wretched countries with ruined exchanges? Take the case of Austria which we are feeding. Their only chance to rectify exchange is by exporting. Now you are giving them a kick of this sort. I am going to apologise beforehand if I use a strong word. This proposal is cowardly. These people are utterly down in the gutter and you are stamping them further down. It is from that point of view that I make a last appeal to the conscience of the Government.

The House is to have and I hope it will make good use of the opportunity that the Bill will give when it conies before us of making the duty a little less harmful to trade than at present appears likely. I only rise to point out to the Committee the appalling prospect revealed by the speech of the Minister for Overseas Trade, and the confident way in which he spoke of there being little difficulty for a Committee to deal with this problem really appalled me, and I admire his Parliamentary gifts very much, but I do not know what length of business experience he has had. How he can contemplate that a Committee set up for the purpose will have little difficulty in deciding what proprotion of unemployment is caused by the collapse of exchanges, and what effect will be produced on international relationships really makes me absolutely despair, and I can only think that the Government have no intention of having these things carried into effect.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 115; Noes, 40.

Division No. 114.]

AYES.

[4.18 a.m.

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Nail, Major Joseph

Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.)

Neal, Arthur

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Armitage, Robert

Falcon, Captain Michael

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Atkey, A. R.

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Oxbridge, Mddx.)

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Forestier-Walker, L.

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Perkins, Walter Frank

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Barker, Major Robert H.

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

Polson, Sir Thomas A.

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Goff, Sir R. Park

Prescott, Major W. H.

Barnston, Major Harry

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Betterton, Henry B.

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Remer, J. R.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Gregory, Holman

Rounded, Colonel R. F.

Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

Hailwood, Augustine

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Simm, M. T.

Brassey, H. L. C.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Stanley, Major Hen. G. (Preston)

Brittain, Sir Harry

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Sutherland, Sir William

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Hood, Joseph

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Brown, Major D. C.

Hopkins, John W. W.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Bruton, Sir James

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Townley, Maximilian G.

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Hurd, Percy A.

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Cautley, Henry Strother

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm.,W).

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Whitla, Sir William

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Kidd, James

Williams, C. (Tavistock)

Clough, Robert

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

Coats, Sir Stuart

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Lindsay, William Arthur

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Calvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Wise, Frederick

Cope, Major William

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Lort-Williams, J.

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Manville, Edward

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Col. Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.

Dean, Commander P. T.

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Murchison, C. K.

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Hinds, John

Rodger, A. K.

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Hirst, G. H.

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Hogge, James Myles

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Spencer, George A.

Briant, Frank

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Thomson, T. (Middlesborough, West)

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Lunn, William

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Wintringham, Thomas

France, Gerald Ashburner

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Gillis, William

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Glanville, Harold James

Rattan, Peter Wilson

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Grundy, T. W.

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Mr. Kiley and Major Hayward.

Hayday, Arthur

Main Question again proposed.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 121; Noes, 33.

Division No. 115.]

AYES.

[4.25 a. m.

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Betterton, Henry B.

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

Cautley, Henry Strother

Armitage, Robert

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W).

Atkey, A. R.

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Brassey, H. L. C.

Clough, Robert

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Coats, Sir Stuart

Barker, Major Robert H.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Barnston, Major Harry

Brown, Major D. C.

Cope, Major William

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Bruton, Sir James

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Hurd, Percy A.

Remer, J. R.

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Dean, Commander P. T.

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Kidd, James

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.)

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Falcon, Captain Michael

Lindsay, William Arthur

Simm, M. T.

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Forestier-Walker, L.

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Lort-Williams, J.

Sutherland, Sir William

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Goff, Sir R. Park

Manville, Edward

Townley, Maximilian G.

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Murchison, C. K.

Whitla, Sir William

Gregory, Holman

Nail, Major Joseph

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Hailwood, Augustine

Neal, Arthur

Williams, C. (Tavistock)

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Wise, Frederick

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Hinds, John

Perkins, Walter Frank

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Hood, Joseph

Poison, Sir Thomas A.

Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. Dudley Ward.

Hopkins, John W. W.

Prescott, Major W. H.

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Hayday, Arthur

Raffan, peter Wilson

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Hayward, Evan

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Hirst, G. H.

Spencer, George A.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hogge, James Myles

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Briant, Frank

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Kiley, James Daniel

Wintringham, Thomas

France, Gerald Ashburner

Lunn, William

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Gillis, William

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Glanville, Harold James

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Grundy, T. W.

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

Mr. Neil Maclean and Mr. G. Thorne.

Main Question put accordingly.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 118; Noes, 37.

Division No. 116.]

AYES.

[4.35 a.m.

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Coats, Sir Stuart

Hood, Joseph

Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hopkins, John W. W.

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

Armitage, Robert

Cope, Major William

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Atkey, A. R.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Hurd, Percy A.

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Dean, Commander P. T.

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Barker, Major Robert H.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Kidd, James

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Barnston, Major Harry

Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Lindsay, William Arthur

Betterton, Henry B.

Falcon, Captain Michael

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

Forestier-Walker, L.

Lort-Williams, J.

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

Manville, Edward

Brassey, H. L. C.

Goff, Sir R. Park

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Green, Albert (Derby)

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Murchison, C. K.

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Nail, Major Joseph

Brown, Major D. C.

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Neal, Arthur

Bruton, Sir James

Gregory, Holman

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Hailwood, Augustine

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Oxbridge, Mddx.)

Cautley, Henry Strother

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Perkins, Walter Frank

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Clough, Robert

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Polson, Sir Thomas A.

Prescott, Major W. H.

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

Sutherland, Sir William

Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Remer, J. R.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Wise, Frederick

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Townley, Maximilian G.

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Whitla, Sir William

Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.

Simm, M. T.

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Dudley Ward.

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Williams, C. (Tavistock)

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Grundy, T. W.

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Hayday, Arthur

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Hayward, Evan

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hinds, John

Spencer, George A.

Briant, Frank

Hirst, G. H.

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Kiley, James Daniel

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Lunn, William

Wintringham, Thomas

France, Gerald Ashburner

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Gillis, William

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Glanville, Harold James

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Mr. Hogge and Mr. Nell Maclean.

Resolved,

"That there shall be charged on any of the following articles imported into Great Britain or Ireland, in addition to any other duties of customs chargeable thereon, a customs duty of an amount equal to 33⅓ per cent. of the value of the article, that is to say:

Articles of any class or description in respect of which on Order by the Board of Trade has been made under any Act of the present Session for giving effect to this Resolution, if manufactured in whole or in part in any of the countries specified in the Order, or deemed to be so manufactured.

Any such Order as aforesaid may be made on the ground that articles of the class or description in question are being sold or offered for sale in the United Kingdom—

( a ) At prices below the cost of production thereof; or

( b ) At prices which, by reason of depreciation in the value in relation to sterling of the currency of the country in which the goods are manufactured, are below the prices at which similar goods can be profitably manufactured in the United Kingdom;

and that by reason thereof employment in any industry in the United Kingdom is being or is likely to be seriously affected

For the purpose of this Resolution, 'cost of production' in relation to goods of any class or description means the current sterling equivalent of—

( a ) The wholesale price at the works charged for goods of the class or description for consumption in the country of manufacture; or

( b ) If no such goods are sold for consumption in that country, the price which, having regard to the prices charged

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

Committee to sit again To-morrow.

Dentists Bill

Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

Scottish Board of Health Act, 1919

Resolved, "That the Scottish Board of Health (Midwives (Scotland) Act, Transfer of Powers from Secretary for Scotland) Order, 1921, presented the 21st day of February, 1921, be approved."—[ Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. Gilmour. ]

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Wednesday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Seventeen Minutes before Five o'clock a.m.