asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that, although permits to enter Bellahouston Hospital and interview cases have been granted to the British Legion, the Association for the Limbless, and the New Advisory Committee, by the Scottish Regional Director, a permit for a similar purpose has been refused to the representative of the International Union of Ex-service Men; whether he can state what is the reason for this refusal; and whether he will issue instructions that equal facilities, given to other ex-service men's organisations, will also be granted to the International Union of Ex-service Men?

The hon. Member appears to have been misinformed. No such permits have been issued to any of the bodies mentioned, and the remainder of the question, therefore, does not arise.

Are not these allegations taken from recent statements made by representatives of this organisation? Will the right hon. Gentleman take that into consideration?

Is it not a fact that this organisation has been trying to undermine discipline in the Army and the forces of the country?

Does not this organisation represent bonâ fide ex-service men, and are they not entitled to consideration in every case put before the Minister?

Not for revolutionists.

Hold your tongue.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that no pension is being paid on behalf of the children of the late Private Robert Mair, No. 43,089, King's Own Scottish Borderers, although his widow has made frequent application; and whether he can state when this case is likely to be decided?

The widow being ineligible for pension, an award under Article 17 of the Royal Warrant was made in respect of the children by the first marriage, and this pension has been in payment since January last. An appeal against the decision of the Ministry that the soldier's death was not due to service has recently been lodged and has been forwarded to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal for decision.

Is it not the case that the pension is much in arrear and is not being paid just now?

That is not the question the hon. Member put. I understand the pension has been paid from January last. If the hon. Member has any further particulars about this case I shall be glad to look into them.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware of the public dissatisfaction in Glasgow in the administration of the War pensions in the Glasgow area; that there is a feeling that the regional officers are giving rulings which are at variance with the decision of the Local War Pensions Committee, and that the Local War Pensions Committee resigned because of the difficulties created by these rulings; and whether he is prepared to have a full inquiry into the administrations of the War Pensions Committee for the Glasgow area?

The answer to all parts of this question is in the negative.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether it is the policy of the Ministry to transfer the powers of local pension committees to the areas, so that the work carried out by these committees will in a short time be undertaken by permanent officials of the Ministry?

My hon. Friend may remember that the working of the local committee system was specifically included in the terms of reference to the Departmental Committee of Inquiry which I appointed last November. Until the report of that Committee is in my hands, I do not propose to make any statement.

Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman has already, in anticipation, probably, of the Departmental Committee's report, transferred powers from local committees into the hands of area officials? Is he aware that already local committees are esnding circulars and resolutions protesting against this transfer of powers—I refer to circular 2032—and at the same time the representatives of local committees are now refused the right to represent applicants before the Appeal Tribunal, because the Ministry representative says they are usually hostile to the Ministry? I think that demands an answer.

A question must be put briefly and clearly if the hon. Member wishes to obtain an answer.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether, in view of his statement of the 12th May, the 60 Winded men who on 11th May were awaiting admission to St. Dunstan's have yet been admitted?

Of the 57 men awaiting admission on the 11th May, 16 have now been accommodated. I am informed that it is hoped to admit the remainder within the next few weeks.

asked the Minister of Pensions (1) whether, seeing that the original appointments of medical referees were made before the completion of medical demobilisation, these appoint- ments will now again be declared vacant and re-advertised, or whether the original appointments are the fixed and permanent appointments of the present holders;

(2) whether the appointments of medical referees are now reviewed every six months as originally decided; how many of these appointments have been considered vacant on review and changed; and whether the opinion of the local pensions committee is ever asked or considered in these appointments?

In the latter part of 1919, when the demobilisation of medical men was practically complete, the then existing appointments of medical referees, to the number of 962, were declared vacant, and 1,553 new appointments were made, preference being given to those men who had served overseas during the War. All the present appointments are temporary, being subject to one month's notice on either side. While the paramount consideration in making these appointments must be medical, consideration is always given to representations made by local committees.

asked the Minister of Pensions what is the total number of medical referees employed locally and centrally on pensions work; what is the total cost to the country; what fees are now paid for this work; what is the average per claimant pensioner; and whether all the appointments are part-time?

The Ministry utilises the services of 1,717 medical referees, whose appointments are part-time and subject to a month's notice. Payment is made at the rate of 5s. per case, except where the examination is in connection with a claim to alternative pension, when the fee is 10s. 6d. The amount paid in fees to medical referees during the last financial year was approximately £250,000.

Is there a transfer of duties formerly performed by War Pensions Committees to the medical referees?

I do not think so. They deal purely with the medical aspect of a case, and the local pensions committees deal mainly with the facts.

asked the Minister of Pensions what will be the total cost of the new pensions offices at Acton; how many of the staff have already been installed; and when it is expected that the building will be completed?

The total cost of the temporary huts was £25,000, and the estimated cost of the permanent building is £482,000. The number of staff in occupation of the former is 840, and of the completed portion of the latter 793. It is anticipated that the new building will be wholly completed by the end of the present financial year.

Has there not been considerable delay compared with the original date suggested for the completion of this building? Have any arrangements been made to convey the very large staff, about 6,000, to and from this building, seeing that no tube or railway is in the vicinity?

I do not know as to delay. In the case of all these buildings, there has been delay, because of the difficulty of obtaining materials and labour. As to the conveyance of the staff, I cannot answer the question without notice.

In view of the enormous sum of money which is being spent on this building, can the hon. and gallant Gentleman state what saving is being effected by vacating buildings now in occupation?

I could not do that without notice, but there is bound to be a saving in rental.

Could the hon. and gallant Gentleman say whether the saving effected represents the interest on the money being expended on the new building?

The hon. and gallant Member had better put that question down.

Is it not a fact that there will be a considerable amelioration of health caused by the removal to Acton?

I have no doubt that will be the case.

asked the Prime Minister what is the total number of civil servants of all classes who are entitled to over four weeks' annual holiday.

I have been asked to reply. I regret that precise-information is not immediately available. The number of civil servants entitled, subject to the exigencies of the public service, to annual leave in excess of four weeks a year is certainly but a small percentage of the whole, and the value of exact figures would not appear to warrant, the labour and cost of their compilation.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the date of setting up the Arbitration Board for civil servants; what has been its personnel since its inauguration; whether its reference includes questions of reduction as-well as applications for increase of remuneration of classes of civil servants; and from what dates have bonuses been awarded to those in receipt of salaries of more than £500 and £1,000, respectively?

The Civil Service Arbitration Board was set up in February, 1917. The personnel has been as follows:

Chairmen: Sir William J. Collins, K.C.V.O., M.P. February, 1917, to June, 1918. Sir Francis Gore-Browne, K.C. July, 1918, to September, 1920. Charles. A. Russell, Esq., K.C. October, 1920, onwards.

Members: Sir Alexander Kaye Butterworth. February, 1917, to April, 1920. Sir Robert Turnbull, M.V.O. December, 1918, to August, 1919. Harry Gosling, Esq., C.H., J.P. From February, 1917, onwards. Sir Guy Granet. April, 1920, onwards.

The terms of reference of the Board enable it to deal only with questions arising with regard to claims for increased remuneration. War bonus was awarded to civil servants in receipt of salaries exceeding £500 but not exceeding £1,000 per annum with effect from the 1st January, 1918, and to officers in receipt of salaries exceeding £1,000 with effect from the 1st January, 1919.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether Thomas Fitzgerald, a railway man at Mallow, County Cork, was shot dead and his brother seriously wounded on the night of 28th May by armed men who took them out of their house and shot them half a mile away; and whether an inquiry has been held and any arrests made?

I am informed by the Commander-in-Chief that Thomas Fitzgerald, who was gatekeeper at Sissanisky level crossing, was brutally murdered in the manner described, and I am sorry to say his brother Henry, an ex-soldier, who was wounded at the same time, died some hours later. Before his death, Henry Fitzgerald stated that he and his brother were called out at 1 a.m. by eight or nine men armed with revolvers and told they were to do their share in cutting some trenches. When some distance away from their home, they were told that they were spies, and were ordered to halt and face the ditch. Their hands were tied behind them, and the murderers then fired into their backs. The Court of Inquiry found wilful murder by some person or persons unknown. Up to the present no arrests, have been made, but the police are pursuing their inquiries.

asked the Chief Secretary what is the result of the inquiry into the death of Arthur Burdon, who was shot dead near Dundrum on the morning of the 19th May; and whether any arrests have been made?

The Court of Inquiry, in lieu of inquest, found that Arthur Burdon was killed on 19th May by gunshot wounds inflicted by a person or persons unknown, who are thereby guilty of wilful murder. The police report that no one appears to have wit- nessed the act and they have been unable at present to make any arrest. Burdon was a clerk at Guinness's brewery, and was shot while cycling to his work. There were seven wounds inflicted at close range. He was friendly with the police, to whom he was well known.

asked the Chief Secretary whether he can give the House any information as to the murder of the Very Reverend John Finlay, late Dean of Leighlin, on Saturday night last; what motive can be suggested for this crime; and whether any arrests have been made?

According to the police report on this diabolical outrage, at two o'clock last Sunday morning about 50 armed and disguised men called at Dean Finlay's house at Bawnboy, County Cavan. The Dean himself went to the door and shortly afterwards aroused his wife, his sister-in-law and three servants, and told them that they had to leave in ten minutes. The raiders took the inmates of the house, with the exception of the Dean himself, to the house of a neighbour, and in response to the anxious inquiries of Mrs. Finlay, they told her that her husband would shortly be allowed to join her. At 5 a.m., when Mrs. Finlay and the others returned, they found the house completely demolished by fire, and lying on the lawn the Dean's dead body with a frightful wound in the back of the skull. It is difficult to suggest a motive for the brutal murder of this aged Protestant clergyman. Dean Finlay was 80 years old. He retired some years ago from the Deanery of Leighlin, and was extremely popular in the district as a generous friend to the poor.

Have any arrests been made in connection with this infamous crime?

I regret I have myself no personal knowledge of arrests. All I can say is that special police arrangements have been made in the district, in the endeavour to seek out the crowd of men responsible for this outrage.

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why the hon. Member for the Falls Division (Mr. Devlin) did not raise this murder when he moved the Adjournment of the House?

—

Hon. Members had better keep their own consciences.

asked the Chief Secretary whether an inquiry has been held into the death of a man named Macarthy, at Ovens, Bellincollig, on the 28th May; and whether any arrests have been made?

I am informed by the Commander-in-Chief that the Court of Inquiry in lieu of inquest in the case of Daniel Macarthy, of Knockamore, County Cork, found that the deceased was murdered by a person or persons unknown. He was found dead with a label inscribed, "Spies and Informers Beware, I.R.A." The unfortunate man was apparently half-witted. On 27th May he presented himself at Ballincollig Military Barracks, and asked for work and was detained for investigation. He was then released. On these meagre grounds he was presumably suspected by the Irish Republican Army of being a spy, and was therefore brutally murdered. As far as is known at present, no arrests have been made.

asked the Chief Secretary, approximately, what number of murders have been committed by rebels in Ireland since July, 1920; and what number of the military, Royal Irish Constabulary, and auxiliary cadets, respectively, have been found guilty of murder or are at present being tried on charges of murder in Ireland, during the same period?

The murders committed by rebels since July, 1920, are 568 in number. This total comprises 310 police, 124 military, and 134 civilians. Members of the Crown forces found guilty of murder during the same period are: Military None Royal Irish Constabulary 1 Auxiliary Cadets 1 The former was executed on the 7th instant, while the latter was found by the Court to be insane at the time he committed the murder. One member of the military forces and four of the Royal Irish Constabulary are at present undergoing trial for murder.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that there has been an enormous increase in the last five months of civilian murders of innocent persons who are loyalists, and who have no connection whatever with any of the forces of the Crown; and, in view of that fact, cannot the right hon. Gentleman suggest any new policy which is going to stamp out this crime?

The question on the Paper asks for certain figures. We cannot have an argument on the figures.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the statement of General Crozier that a report was received by him from an officer who was present at the shooting at Croke Park and forwarded to the proper authority, he will cause searching investigations to be made as to why this report was not put before the Court of Inquiry into this case?

This report was received, but was not produced at the Court of Inquiry, as the officer who rendered it was himself examined as a witness before the Court.

asked the Chief Secretary whether an inquiry has been held into the death of John Sheehan, of Collee, Listowel, stated to have been shot dead by members of the Crown forces on the 25th May; and what is its finding?

I am still awaiting a report from the Commander-in-Chief in this case.

asked the Chief Secretary whether a prisoner named Patrick White was shot dead at the internment camp at Spike Island, Queens-town, on the 1st June; and what was the reason for this shooting?

This refers to the martial law area, and I have asked the Commander-in-Chief for a report. I shall be glad if the hon. Member will postpone his question to a later date.

asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that two men named Patrick and James Ryan were taken from their beds in their house at Knockfune, County Tipperary, on the 7th June, and shot, Patrick being killed and James wounded; and that their house was then set on fire and destroyed; and whether the perpetrators of this outrage have yet been traced?

This refers to the martial law area. I have asked the Commander-in-Chief for a Report, and I shall be glad if the hon. Member will postpone his question, of which I only received notice on Tuesday, to one day next week.

Is it a fact that murders took place in Ireland under circumstances such as this—nearly two months ago—and that they have not yet been officially reported at headquarters?

Every murder, every incident, every outrage, is reported to me; but when an hon. Member puts a question on the Paper I endeavour to get as specific and detailed report as possible for that hon. Member.

Seeing the time that often elapses after the event, could the right hon. Gentleman give the House immediately the official report he received at the time, and say that if further inquiry is desired he will make it?

That would not cover the various points in the question. These questions are put down, I presume, to elicit the fullest details of any given incident or outrage. I am anxious, only too anxious, to give the fullest possible answer.

Can the Chief Secretary tell us how it is that in connection with these questions about the martial law area he gives a stereotyped reply, no matter how long the time that has intervened, to the effect that, "This is in the martial law area and I am causing inquiries to be made." If he got a report at the time, why does he not publish it?

A complaint is frequently made that the actual question on the Paper is not answered.

The truth is that he has not got an answer.

asked the Chief Secretary whether an inquiry has been held into the alleged wrecking and looting by police of Kildorrery, County Cork, on the 8th August, 1920; and whether any arrests have been made?

Some shops in the village of Kildorrery were wrecked on the night of 8th August last following the murder of a policeman, but no evidence has been forthcoming which would justify the arrest of any member of the Crown forces in connection with the destruction.

asked the Chief Secretory whether a young man named Boland, of Ballyhaunis, who had been on the run for some months, was shot dead by members of the Crown forces on 27th May; and whether an inquiry has been held into his death and with what result?

This man was chased and captured by Crown forces during a search for rebels at Crossard. While being led away under escort he made a determined attempt to escape. He ignored repeated commands to halt and was consequently fired at with fatal results. The Court of Inquiry found that he met his death by a bullet wound fired by Crown forces in the execution of their duty. Boland was identified by the police as a captain in the Crossard Company of the Irish Republican Army. He is believed to have taken a leading part in an ambush in this neighbourhood and to have been implicated in the attempted murder of a constable.

asked the Prime Minister whether any estimate of the cost of the operations in Ireland has been presented to the Cabinet; and, if so, whether Supplementary Estimates will be presented?

Supplementary estimates will be presented if required, but it is impossible at present to forecast the rate of expenditure for the rest of the year.

Does the right hon. Gentleman anticipate that a Supplementary Estimate will be required?

I am not yet in a position to anticipate.

asked the Chief Secretary if he is aware that among the property destroyed or looted at Ennis on 19th April, in revenge for the murder of Sergeant Rue on 16th April, was the whole of the contents of the Old Ground Hotel, including personal effects, food, money, paintings, a piano, and the effects of lodgers at the hotel; that the occupiers are Mrs. Jane McNamara, widow, aged 85 years, and quite blind, Mrs. Francis O'Conor, widow, and her daughter Miss Oonagh O'Conor, aged 20; that these women have no male relatives living and take no part in politics; and what reason is alleged by the military governor for the singling out of these persons for punishment?

This hotel was one of those referred to in my reply to the hon. Member for Leyton West (Mr. Newbould) on 5th May, but I have asked the Commander-in-Chief for a more detailed report in this case.

Is it a fact that members of the Crown forces can go about stealing food, money, pianos, and paintings in April, and the right hon. Gentleman in June is asking someone for a report?

No; the allegations are made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, not by me.

Is it not a fact that these helpless women were robbed in April, and the Chief Secretary in June is yet making inquiries?

asked the Chief Secretary whether he has yet consulted with the military authorities as to the advisability of discontinuing official reprisals in the martial law area: and whether any decision has been reached?

I would refer the Noble Lord to my reply to a similar question by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds on the 13th instant.

( by Private Notice ) asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that the Lombardstown Creamery, Cork, has been closed by a military order signed by Colonel Willis, Kerry Brigade, Buttevant; whether this creamery deals with a milk supply of over 6,000 gallons daily, and no other machinery is available in neighbouring creameries to deal with such a large supply; whether the order to close the creamery was given with the consent of His Majesty's Government; and, if so, upon what grounds?

The Commander-in-Chief informs me that this creamery has been closed from 15th June to 29th June. The grounds upon which such punishments are imposed by the military authorities were fully dealt with in my reply to a Private Notice question by the hon. Member for Leith on 30th May, in which I said: It has been decided to close a limited number of creameries in the martial law area in localities where outrages have been frequent and where road cutting and other forms of sabotage are prevalent, and where other punishments and restrictions have not had the desired effect. The number of creameries to be closed in any one area is at present limited to three. Military governors who adopt this form of punishment are instructed to announce publicly by means of Proclamations or through the local Press the reason why each creamery is closed and the duration of the closure. In regard to the last part of the question, these measures are not taken against specific individuals, but are intended to bring home to the inhabitants of the locality generally their responsibility for outrages committed with their knowledge and connivance."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th May, 1921; col. 583, Vol. 142.] No one regrets more than I do the necessity for these measures, but they have been decided upon by the Commander-in-Chief, who has the complete confidence and full support of the Government in his difficult task.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether these orders for the closing down of these creameries are executed, in many cases, summarily and without due notice; and, seeing that there are large stocks of perishable goods, such as butter and cheese, and valuable foodstuffs being wantonly destroyed, can he not see his way to give sufficient notice, in order that these people may remove these perishable goods?

Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that question, will he explain to the House how the inhabitants who are unarmed can prevent outrages committed by armed people, and why they should be punished by the shutting up of their creameries? That is a sensible question, is it not?

As to the specific point raised by the hon. Member (Mr. Waterson), I cannot say whether reasonable notice was given or not, but I will make inquiries.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say, when he is inflicting punishment on the people of Ireland, that he will avoid inflicting punishment on babies who require milk?

asked the Chief Secretary whether an inquiry has been held into the alleged wrecking by the police of many houses at Castlerea, County Roscommon, on the 2nd August last; and whether any punishments have been inflicted?

I have made inquiry into these allegations and I find that they have no foundation whatever. There was no case of wrecking in Castlerea on or about the date mentioned. The police report that the houses of four loyalist farmers were fired into on 23rd August by Sinn Feiners and their windows were broken. On 29th August the vacated police barrack at Loughglinn was maliciously burned. Perhaps the hon. Member refers to these outrages. I should be glad to know on what he has based the untrue allegation against the police in his question.

How has it been found out that they were Sinn Feiners who fired these shots, and have they been punished or arrested for doing so?

That does not arise out of the hon. Member's question.

It arises out of your answer.

The question refers to the "alleged wrecking by the police of many houses at Castlerea." I have said there was no such wrecking. I am endeavouring to assist the hon. Member to elucidate what I am sure he wants, the truth in reference to these allegations, and I have described to him some of the outrages in that part of the country in the month of August.

The right hon. Gentleman quoted an attack which was made, he said, by Sinn Feiners. My hon. Friend has asked a question. Can we have an answer? If the right hon. Gentleman knows this was done by Sinn Feiners has he prosecuted them?

Is it likely the Crown forces would attack a police barracks.

I agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has asked the last supplementary question. I have already said the police reported that the houses of four loyalist farmers were fired into on 23rd August by Sinn Feiners and their windows broken.

Have they been prosecuted or punished in any way for doing that?

The hon. Member will share my regret that we have not yet been able to arrest them.

How do you arrive at the fact that they were Sinn Feiners?

How do you know they were Sinn Feiners, when you do not know who they were?

asked the Chief Secretary whether an inquiry has been held and any arrests made in connection with the sacking by police of Inniscarra, County Cork, on 2nd September last?

A licensed house in Inniscarra was broken into and wrecked on 1st September last year. The occupant's wife alleged that the damage was committed by soldiers. The Commander-in-Chief informs me that this allegation was fully enquired into at the time, but no evidence was forthcoming on which any offenders could be traced and no arrests were made. I have no report of any destruction at Inniscarra on the date mentioned in the question.

asked the Chief Secretary whether a Court of Inquiry has yet been held into the attack on four members of the staff of the "Cork Examiner" on 23rd May last; and, if so, what is its finding?

One of the four men subjected to this murderous attack at 3 a.m. on the 23rd May died some hours later, and the Court of Inquiry in lieu of inquest found that he was killed by a bomb thrown by some person unknown who was thereby guilty of wilful murder. I am informed that another member of the party was dangerously wounded. The "Cork Examiner" newspaper is under the Sinn Fein ban for some time owing to its efforts towards securing peace in Ireland. Some months ago an attempt was made to burn the office and wreck the machinery. The attack on the employés is part of the campaign to cripple the paper by frightening the employés from working. It was a most dastardly outrage on four inoffensive persons who were merely earning their livelihood and indicates the extent to which extremists are prepared to go. Portions of the bomb were found by the police at the scene. It is of the familiar type of home-made Sinn Fein bombs. There were no persons about at the time of the explosion except the four mentioned and no particulars can be got from any other persons. The locality where the bomb was thrown is a bad one and a regular haunt of the Cork gunmen. It is receiving special attention from the police.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this paper was suppressed by himself in the early days of this campaign?

No, I am not aware of that. Further, I am not aware that the statement is true.

It is true, I am aware that it is true. The "Cork Examiner" was suspended. I was in Cork at the time.

"Order, order!"

The hon. Gentleman is not entitled to make a statement.

I cannot recall whether it was during the time of the right hon. Gentleman or the time of his predecessor, but is it not a fact that this paper was suppressed?

I want to be perfectly precise on this point. The allegation of the hon. Member for Silver-town in his supplementary question was that I had suppressed this paper—

No, no! That your Government have done so.

All this is irrelevant to the question on the Paper.

We can blame either you or Macpherson.

They sub-let their responsibility!

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the large and increasing number of serious outrages committed in Great Britain by Sinn Feiners coming from Ireland, he will establish a passport system which will control and prevent the passage of undesirables from Ireland into Great Britain?

I have no power under the existing law to prevent a British subject landing in Great Britain from Ireland without a passport; and even if Parliament were willing to confer the power it would be difficult to enforce effectively a system of passports in respect of all the means of transit available by regular routes and otherwise between Ireland and Great Britain. As I stated in reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Rotherham on the 7th instant, special steps are already taken to discover assassins and other undesirables coming from Ireland.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that he has an effective method of preventing these assassins and other undesirables from coming over to England and perpetuating Sinn Fein outrages?

I do not know what my hon. Friend means by "effective." No system is perfect, but we are doing our best.

Why not blockade the whole of Ireland, and allow nobody to come over? Why not ship the whole lot who are here over there?

Could it not be more effectively carried out than it is under the existing system?

All the undesirables do not come from Ireland. Some come from the north of England.

asked the Prime Minister whether a decision has yet been come to with reference to compensation to innocent victims of reprisals?

I have nothing at present to add to the reply which the Prime Minister gave to a previous similar question by the hon. and gallant Member on the 2nd June.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when it is anticipated the decision will be arrived at?

It is quite impossible to fix a date for this most important decision.

Is the right hon. Gentleman still prepared to burn houses without proof of guilt.

No.

Will the right hon. Gentleman withdraw the Proclamation that was issued in Listowel?

That does not arise out of the question on the Paper.

asked the Prime Minister whether he has received the copies sent to him of the affidavits by Mrs. Bridget Fahy, of Abbeyside, Dungarvan, and Miss Bridget O'Neill, of Kilnafrehan, County Waterford, as to looting and overtures and acts of indecency by Black and Tans at Mrs. Fahy's premises on 3rd April; whether he is aware that these ladies attended at the police barracks and identified one of the men concerned; whether he has ascertained why this man has not been prosecuted; whether he is aware that, as a reprisal for the identification, the police returned in the middle of the night on 14th April and wrecked and burned the shop and house, destroyed furniture, stock, and effects, stole money, and left the lady homeless and penniless, the only occupants of the house being these two ladies and a child of six years; whether any action was taken by him on receipt of the affidavits; and, if so, with what result?

I have received these affidavits, and the allegations are now being investigated by the Commander-in-Chief in Ireland.

Does the answer of the Chief Secretary mean that he has received them, or that the Prime Minister has received them?

Everything sent to the Prime Minister concerning Ireland comes to me.

Oh, dear!

Can the right hon. Gentleman say why it has taken over two months to investigate a series of charges of this kind?

I am not aware that it has taken over two months to investigate the series of charges. As soon as the affidavits came to me they were sent to the only officer who could inquire into them, namely, the Commander-in-Chief. There was some delay in my receiving them, because of the unnecessary circumlocution of sending them to the Prime Minister first.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise that these events are said to have occurred in April? Why has no inquiry been held?

I would like an answer to my question as to whether these ladies attended at the police barracks and identified one of the men concerned, and also as to why this man has not been prosecuted during the intervening two months?

I have fully answered that. There are questions involved in the allegations contained in the affidavits which, as I have stated, are being inquired into.

Does the right hon. Gentleman say this question was never reported to him until he got the sworn affidavits?

I have answered the question.

The hon. Member put down a question referring to certain statements in affidavits. Inquiry naturally follows upon the allegations, and the hon. Member has been asked to await the result of the inquiry.

Surely I am entitled to an answer to a specific question upon the Paper, namely, whether the policeman who was identified has been prosecuted and, if not, why not?

If the hon. Member wishes to detach any part of the question from the part relating to the affidavits, he should put down a separate question.

asked the Chief Secretary what report he has received as regards the wounding of John Mase, a boy aged four, at Thurles, County Tipperary, on the 10th April?

This refers to the martial law area, and I have asked the Commander-in-Chief for a report. Perhaps the hon. Member will put his question down again next week.

asked the Chief Secretary whether Captain MacFie, late adjutant of the Auxiliary Division, Royal Irish Constabulary, was called as a witness at the trial of the cadets alleged to be implicated in the looting at Trim; and whether any statement was obtained from him before the trial?

On the 18th March last an official letter was sent by the Irish Office to Captain MacFie at his last known address in the following terms: In order that the fullest possible information may be obtained in regard to the looting in Trim by members of N Company of the Auxiliary Division of the Royal Irish Constabulary the Irish Government are anxious to obtain a Summary of Evidence both from Brigadier-General Crozier and from yourself. I have therefore to request that you will be good enough to inform me that you will hold yourself in readiness to give that evidence at an early date. No reply was ever received to this letter. It is understood that Captain MacFie is abroad, but his exact whereabouts are not known.

asked the Chief Secretary whether he has seen a statement by General Crozier that he was never present at the taking of a summary of evidence against the cadets accused of complicity in the Trim looting; that he was asked to attend at the taking of such a summary on 23rd March, but found on his arrival that this was not a summary of evidence, since the accused were not present; that he found that he was merely called in to assist the military by throwing light on missing documents and exhibits, but was unable to state what had become of them since his first investigation of the case; that, on this occasion, he signed a statement to the effect that certain important documents and exhibits were then missing; and whether this statement is still in existence.

A statement of the evidence which could have been given by General Crozier was taken. It could have been used in evidence. General Crozier was subpoenaed to give evidence at this trial but forwarded a medical certificate to the effect that his health was such that he could not travel to Dublin.

Why did the right hon. Gentleman say a summary of evidence was taken, when, according to the definition of a summary of evidence, that was not the fact? Is he aware that a summary of evidence must be taken in the presence of the accused and that therefore no summary of evidence was taken at all? May I have an answer?

The question on the Paper contains the phrase, "a summary of evidence," and that accounts for the nature of the reply.

"A summary of evidence" was the term used by the right hon. Gentleman in answer to the previous question, and that is a term used in the Manual of Military Law. May I now have an answer to my question?

I accept the definition of the Manual of Military Law.

Then, why is it the right hon. Gentleman says that a summary of evidence was taken when, according to the definition, it was not taken, because none of the accused were there?

I have en deavoured to answer the question. I say that a statement of the evidence that could have been given by General Crozier was taken. That is my answer. General Crozier also was subpoenaed to give evidence at the trial.

Why did the right hon. Gentleman say "a summary of evidence" before?

In the right hon. Gentleman's answer now he uses the term "statement of evidence."

May I ask why he changes it now when he is found out?

He cooked the answer.

asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that during March the evidence and documents relating to the Trim looting were handed over by the police to the military authorities for investigation; that these were returned to the police on 23rd or 24th March with a statement that they were now useless owing to loss and deterioration of evidence; that Major Wake, of the Auxiliary Division, proceeded to Trim on 24th March and obtained further evidence; whether he was immediately after called on to resign; and whether the evidence taken by him was used at the trial and himself called as a witness?

The evidence relating to the Trim case was handed over to the military authorities by the police, and was returned when no longer required. It was not accompanied by any statement such as that alleged. As regards the rest of the question, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the replies I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle, East (Major Barnes), on 2nd June and 9th June.

asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that for some weeks there has been a trade dispute at the works of Messrs. Barret and Company, Westland Row, Dublin; that a strike picket has been on duty outside the premises since the beginning of the dispute, and that no question has arisen as to the conduct of this picket; that on 3th May an armed military car drove up, and the officer in charge ordered the picket away, stating that they could not be allowed to loiter there; that the officer was informed that a trade dispute was in progress and that they were the strike picket; that the officer replied with an expletive against the strike and again ordered the picket off; and whether he will have inquiries made into this matter and give instructions against any further interference with the legitimate right of dispute?

Under the powers conferred on him by the Restoration of Order in Ireland Regulations, the Competent Military Authority of the Dublin District has issued an Order making it an offence to stand or loiter in any public place. The action of the strike picket contravened this Order, and they were accordingly requested to disperse. The military authorities have no desire whatever to interfere in any trade dispute, but the methods of the rebels in cloaking their murderous intentions under the guise of ordinary civil occupations is well known, and I am afraid that the curtailment of privileges of this nature is in present circumstances unavoidable.

To the category of crimes, of which it is asserted the military forces of the Crown are guilty, have we now to add the intimidation of workmen?

asked the Chief Secretary how many members of the Crown forces have been punished for the burning or looting of houses and other buildings during reprisals which occurred between July and December, 1920?

No members of the Crown forces have been punished for such offences.

May I ask how it is the right hon. Gentleman said, on 9th June, that action is always taken against persons responsible for unauthorised reprisals? Does he deny that reprisals have taken place?

I have answered the question.

Does the right hon. Gentleman say that none of the persons whom he describes as guilty of murder has been brought to book by his Department —his own men?

I have answered that question.

asked the Chief Secretary whether he will state the findings of the Court of Inquiry into the affray between two parties of police at Castleconnell, during which two policemen and one civilian were killed?

I will circulate in the Official Report the findings of the Court, which, I may add, were given by my Noble Friend the Lord Chancellor in another place on the 5th ultimo.

The findings of the Court were as follow: "(1) That the detachment of G Company, Auxiliary Division, Royal Irish Constabulary, was engaged in a legitimate and properly organised operation. (2) That the orders issued by Captain and 2/D.I. W. P. Wood were so framed as to show the intention of avoiding unnecessary bloodshed. (3) That the firts shot was fired by the police. (4) That the two civilians who were first captured and also Constable Talbot were not ill-treated. (5) That considerable excitement prevailed; that the fact that Constable Talbot, who remained with the party in the passage who had accepted his surrender, was not injured shows that there was no intention of any unauthorised shooting. That there were other Auxiliaries in the yard who had not seen what had occurred in the passage and who fired not knowing the circumstances, and that Mr. O'Donovan and Constable Morrison were wounded by this firing. (6) That Captain and 2/D.I. Wood gave the orders to cease fire as soon as he knew that Constable Talbot had surrendered, and that this order was obeyed. 589 (7) That proper precautions were taken to protect Mr. and Miss O'Donovan and the female employés of the hotel. (8) That the Court are of opinion that whilst the evidence of Miss Margaret Wade was given in good faith she can only have had a partial view of what occurred and was mistaken in saying that she saw Mr. O'Donovan and Constable Talbot together. On this point the evidence of the two constables is conclusive. (9) That the statement which appeared in the Press to the effect that 'the Auxiliaries returned, accused Mr. O'Donovan of har bouring rebels,' took him out, and shot him, was incorrect and was entirely unjustified, and is further disproved by the position of the wounds. (10) The Court find— ( a ) That the deceased Denis O'Donovan, male, aged 46, married, agent for Murphy's Brewery, was residing at the Shannon Hotel, Castleconnell, at the time of his death. That the deceased Donald Pringle, male, aged 31, single, cadet, Auxiliary Division, Royal Irish Constabulary, was residing at Lakeside Hotel, Killaloe, at the time of his death. That the deceased William John Hughes, male, aged about 45, married, Sergeant, Royal Irish Constabulary, was residing at the police barracks, Newport, at the time of his death. ( b ) That all the deceased died at about 20.00 hours on the 17th April, 1921, at Castleconnell, County Limerick. ( c ) That the cause of death in each case was shock and hæmorrhage following gunshot wounds. That the deceased died after receiving the wounds. ( d )That the shots which caused the wounds were fired in the case of Denis O'Donovan and William John Hughes by a party of 'G' Company, Auxiliary Division, Royal Irish Constabulary, and in the case of Donald Pringle, by a party of Royal Irish Constabulary; that the shots were fired during an encounter between two parties of Crown forces at Castleconnell, County Limerick, on 17th April, 1921. That the encounter occurred through each party mistaking the others for armed civilians."

Were all the material witnesses in this case called?

The hon. and gallant Gentleman can judge of the Court from its findings.

I shall be glad if the hon. Gentleman will postpone this question.

Yes, I have no objection to that, but I think I ought to point out that the question was put down a week ago. The thing happened last November, the arrested men were tried a couple of months ago, and I think the right hon. Gentleman might have some information now to give to the House.

Let me just set out upon what I am endeavouring to do. When a specific question dealing with specific names, places, dates, and events is put on the Paper, I am bound to refer it to the proper officer—in this case the Commander-in-Chief—responsible for the martial-law area for an answer. I must do it, in fairness to him, and in view of my desire to give the hon. Member the fullest information I can obtain.

asked the Chief Secretary what is the result of the inquiries into the alleged theft last November by members of the Crown forces of property belonging to Nurse Dowling, of Ballymacelligott; and whether any compensation has been paid to her?

No order was issued to search the premises where Nurse Dowling resided at the time in question, and no police are known to have entered the premises on that date. Investigations in this matter are still being pursued, but unless further facts come to light there is no ground for paying any compensation from the public funds.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this lady gave very great service during the War, and that the lost £100 worth of notes and property that were taken while the forces of the Crown were on the premises; that they were known to have entered the premises—there is plenty of evidence to that effect?

I profoundly regret that anybody should lose money— or their lives—in Ireland; but this case has been inquired into, and unless I have justification for it I have no right to spend money voted by this House to anybody, however hard the case may be.

May I ask, in view of the attention that has been called to this, the Ballymacelligott incident, which was, I think, a serious affair, whether the right hon. Gentleman will go into the whole of the facts of the case and give a clear, frank report to the House about it?

Will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to see that a verbatim report of the trial is laid upon the Table of the House?

Is it not, Sir, a breach of the privileges of the House that hon. Members should put inspired and primed questions, about the circumstances of many of which they know nothing?

There is a Member with the halo!

You go before your people with these stories.

There is no question of privilege.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is not an inspired question; some of us have visited the very place, and evidence was taken on the spot?

Let me be responsible only for what I am responsible. [An HON. MEMBER: "That is quite enough."] The question deals with Nurse Dowling, and it is a very hard case, but in my answer I say there is no grounds for paying any compensation out of public funds. What I shall do is: I shall consider if it is possible—if the nurse has a good case—to contribute out of any other funds. I shall do that. It is impossible for a Minister to spend public money except on the authority of those who advise him.

What does the right hon. Gentleman mean when he says: "If the nurse has a good case?"

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker—

Mr. MacVeagh.

The following question stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. MacVeagh:

75. To ask the Chief Secretary if his attention has been called to the official statement issued on 9th May from Dublin Castle for insertion in the newspapers to the effect that Newcastle, County Down, police barracks had been attacked at 2.30 that morning, and that the attack lasted until 5 a.m. when the rebels were driven off; has he since been informed that the force of rebels consisted of one local Tory who had gone mad, and who is now in a lunatic asylum; on whose authority was the story of the heroic defence of Newcastle barracks against the rebel army circulated, and has it since been publicly withdrawn; and, as the local telegraph office was not open until three hours after the facts had been known, can he state if the account came from any local police officer or whether it was composed in Dublin Castle?

The statement in question—[ Interruption ].

Order! I want to hear the Chief Secretary tell us about these men.

We do not want to listen to you.