asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the official Japanese statement to the effect that there ought to be a political as well as a financial consortium of the Powers with regard to China; whether any such proposal has actually been put forward; and, if so, what is its exact significance?

I have never heard of such a suggestion being made.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is intended to continue to permit Greek warships and troopships to use the waters of the Dardanelles, the Sea of Marmora, and the Bosphorus for operations against the Turkish armies, in view of the neutralisation of those waters and the reply of Greece to the recent Allied representations?

The status of the Straits was explained by the Leader of the House on the 21st instant, and is not affected by the Greek reply.

Having sent a letter to the Greek Government saying that we would give no further support in the event of an unfavourable reply, are we not going against the spirit of that letter in allowing them to use these neutral waters for their operations?

I do not agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman.

( by Private Notice ) asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give the House any information with reference to the situation on the Ismid Peninsula?

The situation in the Ismid Peninsula is obscure, but according to information received this morning the town of Ismid was evacuated by the Greek forces on the evening of 27th June. It is further reported that the town is in flames and that great panic prevails in the district. Numbers of Armenians and neutral Turks are fleeing towards Constantinople. Having regard to the general confusion, there appears to be considerable danger of massacres, and Mr. Rattigan, in concurrence with the Allied High Commissioners, is taking all possible steps to prevent such outrages by one side or the other.

Can my hon. Friend tell me whether there are any British ships in the vicinity to protect British interests on the Peninsula? Are there any troops there?

I understand that British interests are not in any danger. Questions relating to naval or military affairs should be addressed to the Departments concerned.

Has Mr. Rattigan any British troops at his disposal?

He is acting with the Allied Commissioners in Constantinople, and has no concern, as such, with military policy.

Then none of our troops are likely to be involved in the next few days?

I do not think that arises out of the question?

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether officers and men of the Royal Navy or Royal Naval Reserve who served in defensively armed merchant ships may count such service as from 2nd August, 1914 for the payment of prize money?

Service in defensively armed merchant ships does not qualify for prize money, the award of which is limited to those who served in His Majesty's ships of war, and who could, therefore, have had an opportunity of participating in captures resulting in prize proceeds payable to the Prize Fund.

Does not the hon. Gentleman think it very hard that these men, who were constantly under fire from hostile submarines, quite as much as the men in the Grand Fleet, should be debarred from participating?

The point, after all, is that they were not able to capture prizes. They were armed in case they were there attacked.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he will take immediate steps to afford the Trinity House Brethren the necessary protection for their lighthouse staff on the South-West coast of Ireland to enable them to carry out their highly important duties without molestation by Sinn Fein rebels?

The question has been fully considered, but I regret that the Admiralty are not in a position to supply this protection.

Why is it not possible to garrison at least the Fastnett Lighthouse, which is the key of the Atlantic, as it is necessary that that lighthouse should be kept without any fear of having its service interrupted?

I admit that it is very desirable that that lighthouse should be protected. The actual lighting service has not been interfered with. I gather that the only service which has suffered is the fog signal service, owing to the stealing of explosives, but I am afraid that the Admiralty have not seen their way to make that protection a duty of the Navy.

Is not the fog signal service actually carried out at the Fastnet Light itself? If that be the case, considering that the Fastnet is some miles from land, could not the Admiralty see that it is properly protected and looked after?

I will certainly discuss it further, but the Admiralty did go into the question very fully, and came to the conclusion that the protection was not a duty which they could undertake.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland what means of transport are at present in use for the supply of foodstuffs to Western Donegal?

The suspension of certain sailings between Londonderry and Donegal was explained by my right hon. Friend the Attorney-General in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Rothwell (Mr. Lunn) on 20th June. I have no evidence of distress in any part of Donegal, but if there is a shortage of any class of foodstuff, the inhabitants have the remedy in their own hands, since the normal method of transport is by road and rail, and this method can be restored with the good-will of the inhabitants at any time.

May I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman if he is aware—

No—we must proceed.

( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether a reply to his letter to the hon. Member for East Clare (Mr. de Valera) has been received and what is the nature of this reply?

Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend has received a telegram, which I shall read to the House: SIR,—I have received your letter. I am in consultation with such of the principal representatives of our nation as are available. We most earnestly desire to help in bringing about a lasting peace between the peoples of these two islands, but see no avenue by which it can be reached if you deny Ireland's essential unity and set aside the principle of national self-determination. Before replying more fully to your letter I am seeking a conference with certain representatives of the political minority in this country. (Signed) EAMON DE VALERA, Mansion House, Dublin. 28th June, 1921.

Will the right hon. Gentleman do his best to restrain his colleagues and followers—

Order, order!

asked the Minister of Labour whether Sergeant Edward Watersworth, No. 694,138, Labour Corps, served from 1914 to 1918, and again enlisted in May, 1919, and was discharged in December, 1919; whether he applied for a grant of £100 for pig and poultry farming, and was recommended by the doctor of the Lancashire tuberculosis dispensary and passed by an inspector of agriculture as a fit and proper person for the grant, but has been refused on the ground of his second enlistment; and whether, in all these cases, a man's War service will be rendered null and void for a civil liabilities grant because of post-War service of a few months' duration?

It is the case that an application was received from Sergeant Watersworth and was refused. The reason for refusal was that his application was not made within 12 months from the date of his demobilisation from War service. A man's War service is not rendered null and void for a civil liabilities grant because of post-War service of a few months' duration, provided his application is made within 12 months from the date of his original discharge.

Would it be possible for this man to make an application after his first demobilisation?

I do not think so. I have no discretion in the matter, but let my hon. Friend put that proposition to me.

asked the Minister of Labour how many ex-service men have now applied under the Government scheme for employment in the building trades; how many are now employed; what is the attitude of the trade unions concerned; and whether he is satisfied that all Government Departments are assisting the scheme to the utmost?

It is impossible at the moment for me to give more detailed figures than I gave to my Noble and gallant Friend last week, but he will be glad to hear that it has been decided that as from 1st September next contracts for the Government on which bricklayers, plasterers, slaters and tilers are employed will be let, save in exceptional circumstances, only on condition that the contractor is employing ex-service men in accordance with the conditions of the scheme. Furthermore, every effort is being made by all the Government Departments concerned to ensure that a proper proportion of ex-service men are taken on and employed on existing contracts. The attitude of the trade unions concerned in the majority of cases is unfriendly.

Is there any reason why this new scheme could not come into force before the 1st September?

I thought myself that it was a rather long delay, but there are difficulties in the way.

May we hope for better things as far as ex-service men are concerned under this scheme in future?

Both my hon. Friend and myself hope that we may be able to get ahead.

asked the Postmaster-General whether, in considering applications for vacancies in the Post Office ex-service men will have priority of consideration; and whether there is any intention of reinstating conscientious objectors or considering their claims for vacancies until all suitable applicants among men who fought for their country have been appointed?

Vacancies on certain grades of the Poet Office staff are filled by appointments from lower grades in the Post Office. Subject to this limitation the reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second part is in the negative. Eighty-nine thousand two hundred and fifty-five ex-service men are now employed in the Post Office.

Is it quite clear from the answer that no conscientious objectors will be reinstated at all until all the ex-service men have been reinstated?

I can give the Noble Lord a statement in regard to the men in the Post Office. There are 89,255 ex-service men employed in the Post Office. Certain conscientious objectors have been reinstated, and I think that reply is applicable to other Departments of the State. The whole of the conscientious objectors previously employed in the Post Office have been either reinstated or dismissed, and the further question of reinstatement does not arise at the present time at all.

Will the right hon. Gentleman promise that dismissed conscientious objectors will on no account be reinstated—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]—until the ex-service men have been attended to?

Certainly I will.

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain to the House the reason why, under any circumstances, conscientious objectors are employed by the Government?

I could deal with that question at some length, but I may say that the total number of conscientious objectors in the Post Office was 256. They were divided into several categories: men who secured exemption (whether absolute or conditional) from tribunals, and were allowed to remain on Post Office duty; also men who secured exemption from tribunals, but were required to take up work of national importance outside the Post Office as a condition of exemption. This includes, among others, men who were required to join the Friend's Ambulance Unit. There are many other categories and I will send my hon. Friend a list.

Is there any reason why these men should not think for themselves?

asked the Minister of Labour what number of industrial disputes involving changes of wages have been satisfactorily settled by the Ministry without stoppage of work during the three months ending 31st May; what numbers of men and women employed were involved; and in what cases were reductions of wages involved in the settlement?

My hon. Friend will recognise that it is impracticable to give a precise statistical statement on this matter because the intervention of the Ministry vares considerably from unobtrusive advice to formal intervention, and it is very frequently impossible to say exactly how far the less formal action was directly responsible for a settlement in any particular case. The less formal cases are, of course, much more numerous, hut of the disputes in which the Department has formally intervened there are 26 instances of differing importance in which my Department intervened in the period mentioned. Seventeen of these cases were settled without a stoppage of work. Altogether about 500,000 workpeople were concerned, and in the majority of cases reductions of wages were involved. I am, of course, not referring to the numerous cases where settlements were effected through machinery for negotiation which my Department have helped to establish, such as joint industrial councils and conciliation boards.

asked the Minister of Labour if the committee representing the Labour party and its associates have responded to his invitation to submit for investigation the statistical and other bases of their report discrediting the official cost-of-living figure; and if he is inviting independent statistical discreditors of the figure, such as Miss Eleanor Rathbone, Dr. A. L. Bowley, and the London School of Economics, to submit their criticisms for similar investigation?

The particulars asked for have not yet been received, but we have been informed that details of the investigation undertaken by the Joint Committee referred to will be contained in a Report, publication of which is ex- pected within a few days. The Ministry; of Labour is, I think, already sufficiently familiar with the details of such reasoned criticisms as have appeared from other sources.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it a serious thing to adhere to a figure which is regarded as of no value by both employers and employés? Can he point to any authoritative person who has any faith in these figures outside the persons who are responsible for them?

I am aware of the fact that there are two parties. One says that the figures are far too high. The other says that they are far too low. I am disposed to believe that the truth lies in the middle.

If the right hon. Gentle man calls for detailed information from one side, why does he not call for detailed information from the other as well?

We have carefully studied Miss Rathbone and Dr. Bowley's reports.

Are not the actual figures of the cost of living 20 per cent. higher than the Government figures?

I think that that question affords evidence of the criticism, to which I have referred. My hon. Friend (Mr. Hurd) will note that the hon. Gentleman opposite says that the figures should be 20 per cent. higher.

My point is that you are asking for information from one set of discreditors and not from the other.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that in the "Labour Gazette" for June fresh butter was quoted at 2s. 2½d. per pound, whereas large stores and multiple store shops having branches all over the United Kingdom were freely advertising the commodity at 1s. 8d to 1s. 10d. per pound on the 1st day of June, and that as a result of this inflation of price the average percentage increase compared with July, 1914, is stated to be 83 per cent. of this commodity, whereas if the true price was stated, namely, 1s. 8d. to 1s. 10d. per pound, the average percentage increase would have been 39 per cent. above that of July, 1914; whether he is aware that, notwithstanding that the "Labour Gazette" of May in a footnote states that since the date to which the returns relate there have been considerable reductions in the prices of some articles, especially bacon, the "Labour Gazette" of June quotes bacon, streaky, at 2s. 2¾d. per pound., a reduction of only 1¾d. per pound, although in May this commodity was easily procurable at prices ranging from 1s. 8d. per pound; and whether, in view of these inaccuracies, steps can be taken to compile a more accurate table, in view of the far-reaching importance of the figures compiled from this data?

The prices quoted in the "Labour Gazette" are averages for the United Kingdom as a whole, based on information obtained from retailers in all the larger towns and in over 500 smaller places. I am aware that in some cases butter and bacon could be purchased, on 1st June, at the prices suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend, but in many cases the prices were substantially higher, and the general averages, as computed from all the returns received, were as stated in the "Labour Gazette." As regards the alternative calculation made by my hon. and gallant Friend, I would point out that the minimum prices charged by certain large multiple stores at the present time cannot properly be compared with the general average of prices at July, 1914. Such calculations can only appropriately be made on the basis of comparable figures for the two dates, as is done in the "Labour Gazette."

Would the right hon. Gentleman set up a Committee to decide this point? In view of these bloated prices for butter and bacon, cannot something be published more nearly approaching the real price? Every month the same bloated prices are published.

I have given an answer to that in anticipation in my reply to another hon. Member (Mr. Hurd).

asked the Minister of Labour what is the annual cost to the State of the fees and expenses paid to labour and trade union representatives for attendance at Unemployment Committees and other Committees in connection with the Unemployment Exchanges; and if, in the interests of economy, he will take steps to discontinue this outlay, especially having regard to the fact that representatives of the trade unions in many cases utilise their position to induce persons interviewed to join trade unions?

No fees are paid to chairmen or members of Local Employment Committees of the Employment Department of the Ministry of Labour. The total cost for all members of travelling expenses and allowances for subsistence and lost time for the year ended 31st March, 1921, was £18,791, but the records of the Department do not show what proportion of this total was paid to workpeople's representatives. At the present time the interviewing of applicants occurs in the main at meetings of rota Sub-committees in pursuance of their statutory function of considering applications to benefit under Section 3 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1921, and the examination of these claims by the rota Committees has undoubtedly led to a very great saving of public funds. I have no reason to believe that representatives of trade unions take advantage of their position in the manner suggested in the question.

asked the Minister of Labour whether the Unemployment Insurance Regulations at present in force are of a temporary character; and, if so, whether the new Regulations will be placed before Parliament during this Session?

The Unemployment Insurance Regulations at present in force are provisional in the sense that I intend, after having obtained observations in response to invitations issued to representative bodies of employers and employed persons, to issue combined Regulations of a permanent character. I hope to be able to do this shortly, but I cannot say whether it will be practicable during the present Session.

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the uncertainty which seems to exist re- garding aspects of the operation of the Unemployment Insurance Act, he will ensure that detailed instruction thereon is given to all Employment Exchanges, so that delay may be avoided?

Employment Exchanges are in possession of detailed instructions regarding the procedure to be followed. These instructions are designed to avoid delay as far as possible, and, at the same time, to provide the necessary safeguards. Inquiries into a claimant's eligibility for benefit sometimes entail unavoidable delay.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the lack of uniformity in the decisions of adjoining employment exchanges on the question of holidays; that cases have occurred where workers normally employed in the same mill or workshop have been treated differently with respect to their unemployment benefit through being registered at different exchanges.; that, for instance, the number of days deducted for the Easter and Whitsun holidays varied at the Bacup and Rawtenstall exchanges, although a large number of those registered at these two exchanges are normally employed at Waterfoot, and therefore, when employed, have the like holidays; and whether steps can be taken to secure uniformity of practice in these respects?

I am not aware that there has been any lack of uniformity in the decisions of adjoining employment exchanges on the question of holidays. I am prepared to make inquiries into any specific cases which my hon. Friend will bring to my notice.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire into the case mentioned in the question?

I will.

asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to the Regulations that are being laid down by employment exchanges as to the terms on which women may be engaged for domestic service; whether at an exchange in the Edgware Road, W., the conditions are that the salary shall be equivalent to the trade union rate for any other industry and that adequate facilities shall be given for the employé to have her friends at her place of work; and whether unemployment donation is granted if a situation cannot be found for those on the register under these conditions?

I am not aware of any Regulations having been issued by employment exchanges with regard to terms and conditions of employment for adult women in domestic service. My hon. and gallant Friend may, however, be referring to the action of Juvenile Advisory Committees, who before advising a boy or girl to take up a particular place require to be assured that the conditions offered are satisfactory. The situation suggested in the latter part of the question has not arisen, as there is a greater number of vacancies than of suitable applicants Should, however, a case arise of a girl refusing an offer of suitable employment the question as to eligibility for benefit would be dealt with in accordance with the usual procedure.

The Advisory Committees have laid down these impossible conditions, but cannot they be revised by the Ministry or by anyone else?

Certainly. They laid down conditions with regard to boys and girls, many of whom are seeking service for the first time. In any case the authorities will have to be satisfied that the persons refused suitable employment before unemployment benefit can be paid.

May I send my right hon. Friend a copy of the statement on which I based my question?

Yes, certainly.

asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to the attitude of the local Labour Ministry in Belfast in regard to the payment of unemployment donation last week; whether he is aware that large numbers of unemployed workers, who, for the convenience of the local Ministry, have been signing up at the mills and factories in which they were formerly employed, were informed by the local authorities that, as Wednesday, 22ndJune, the day of the opening of the Parliament of Northern Ireland, was a bank holiday, no unemployment donation was payable for that day; whether they were also informed that, as the failure to sign up on Wednesday broke the continuity of the week, no donation would be payable for the two preceding days, Monday and Tuesday; and whether, seeing that this decision means the loss of three days' unemployment grant to many hundreds of workers, he proposes to take any action in the matter?

The facts are. I understand, generally as stated by my hon. Friend. The Umpire, who is the final authority, has decided that workpeople on short time are in general not entitled to benefit for holidays. In this case the decision to declare the day of the opening of the Northern Parliament a bank holiday affected the continuity rule; and, in short, may have had the result of bringing about, as my hon. Friend says, a loss of three days' unemployment benefit. Now, I must not under any circumstances even seem to prejudge the view of the Umpire. But if my hon. Friend will give me particulars, I will arrange for a test case to be submitted to the Umpire, in order that he may decide whether the holiday, which in this case affected the continuity rule, is a customary holiday within the meaning of his previous decision.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state why these workers should be victimised because the Ulster Parliament was opened?

I am sorry my hon. Friend reads that into it. He has really no right to do so, if I may say so with great respect. This was Bank Holiday, the place was closed, and the men could not come and sign. Therefore the continuity rule was broken in the ordinary course, but the decision had nothing to do with the Ulster Parliament. I am going to submit a case—without prejudging it by expressing any view—to the umpire, to see whether or not it will be held that this was a customary holiday or otherwise.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this was not a customary holiday at all, but a holiday created for a special purpose, that special purpose being to open the Ulster Parlia- ment, and will he say why should these workers of Belfast suffer because the State decides to have a special Bank Holiday on a specific day?

My hon. Friend must realise that I am trying to help him.

Help Carson's followers—not me!

I am going to give the umpire an opportunity of saying whether or not this was a customary holiday in accordance with the previous decision.

asked the Minister of Health the nature of his latest reports indicating the present state of the health of the children in those districts where unemployment is most pronounced?

I have received no special reports indicating that the health of children is suffering in districts where unemployment is pronounced.

Does the right hon. Gentleman believe the policy of the Government in reducing unemployment benefit will be conducive to improvement in the health of children in those districts?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say to what extent the education authorities are cutting down their obligations in regard to the feeding of children?

The right hon. Gentleman is not the Minister to whom those questions should be addressed.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is now in a position to make any statement to the House respecting the date when the rates of wages fixed by the Grocery Trade Board will come into operation?

asked the Minister of Labour on what date he proposes to make operative the rates of wages recently agreed by the Grocery Provision Trade Board?

I had expected to have been able to give my decision last week. I hope to do so within the next day or so.

asked the Minister of Labour what salary the divisional controller of the Employment Exchange in the Bristol area is paid, including war bonus; and whether any increase has been made within the last six months or is in contemplation?

My hon. and learned Friend no doubt refers to the divisional controller for the Southwestern Division of the country who is responsible for the work of all the local offices of the Employment and Insurance Department of the Ministry in the counties of Gloucester, Wilts, Hants, Dorset, Somerset, Devon and Cornwall and the Isle of Wight. The salaries of all the nine divisional controllers in Great Britain have, during the last year, been raised to £1,000 a year (exclusive of bonus) in consideration of the great increase of work and responsibility resulting from the extension of Unemployment Insurance. Prior to 1st July, 1920, such officers received £850–£950 a year exclusive of bonus. No further increase is contemplated.

Is it a fact that with the War bonus the divisional controller of each of these areas receives something over £1,600 a year, and that from the date mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman this salary and bonus were increased, although the duties had not increased?

In this particular case the salary with bonus is £1,690. Let me add that this gentleman supervises an area of 10,900 square miles. He has 207 Employment Exchanges in his care, and 728,065 insured persons. I desire to pay the most sincere tribute to the value of his services to the public.

Is it the fact that this gentleman has not been trained in industrial affairs at all, and that he has been trained in other capacities, with experience quite outside industrial affairs?

That I cannot say. If my hon. and learned Friend will see the work that this officer supervises and note the enormous volume of it, he will agree that I am entitled to a first-rate man, and that this gentleman is.

How many applicants were there for this post?

This is not a new appointment. It has been held for some considerable time. If the hon. and gallant Member wants me to look up the archives, I will do so.

asked the Minister of Labour what salary, including war bonus, is paid to women clerks of the ages respectively of 18 and 19 in the Bristol Employment Exchange; and whether the women clerks in question are required to have any special training or education beyond that of the ordinary school curriculum?

There are two classes of women clerks in the Bristol Exchange at present—permanent and temporary Permanent women clerks, whose commencing salary is £52 a year up to the age of 18 and £75 at 18, are obtained by open competitive examination conducted by the Civil Service Commissioners, and the competition is keen. The bonus at present payable on the salaries of £52 and £75 is £85 16s. and £123 15s. per annum respectively. The rate of pay for temporary women clerks between the ages of 18 and 21, engaged on routine clerical duties in the Bristol Employment Exchange, is 43s. inclusive for a week of 44 hours. The qualifications required are clerical ability together with aptitude to deal promptly and courteously with the miscellaneous inquiries received.

Is it a fact that women clerks of 18 and 19 years of age receive from £198 to £212 a year for doing the ordinary work which a girl who leaves the elementary school is able to do? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that a salary of £212 is too much for an unmarried girl of 18 years?

I have given my hon. and learned Friend the fixed salaries, with the bonuses which were added by the Treasury National Whitley Council. With regard to these girls, if my hon. and learned Friend will do me the favour of visiting the Victoria Street Employment Exchange, Bristol, he will, I feel sure, come here and pay a tribute to the staff's patience in a difficult task.

Do they, as a matter of fact, find any jobs for the unemployed?

Yes; I could give my hon. and gallant Friend a return. Even during these times of grave industrial depression they have found something like 750,000 places for the unemployed throughout the country during the last twelve months.

I beg to give notice that I shall raise this question on the Motion for Adjournment to-night.

Is it not the case that these questions are mostly asked by people with £5,000 a year?

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government is pledged to pay till September more than 21s. a week to boys under 15 years of age; and whether, in the event of the Government being thus committed, he will, taking the heavy burden of taxation into consideration, reconsider the decision to pay 18s. a week subsequently, especially in view of the wages ruling in private enterprise?

There is no such general pledge as that referred to by the hon. and gallant Member. The current remuneration of a boy whose basic wage is 8s. a week would be 21st 3d. a week, and it is estimated that the reduction of bonus on the 1st September next will reduce the total remuneration to about 18s. a week. The bonus payable to these boys is fixed in accordance with the general scheme of Civil Service bonus, and on this subject I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given to a question put on the 28th instant by the hon. and gallant Member for the Henley Division of Oxfordshire (Captain B. Terrell), in which I state that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to take an early opportunity of making a statement on the question of Civil Service bonus.

May we take it, from the last sentence of the reply of the hon. Gentleman, that there is an intention of reducing this very high wage paid in certain Government Departments after 1st September next?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are many sons of profiteers, who have never done a day's work in their lives, who get 24s. a week pocket-money?

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the office of surveyor in the prisons department is amongst the list of offices scheduled by the Treasury in the Minute issued in May, 1886, as an office which entitles the holder thereof to an addition of seven years for professional qualifications?

Section 4 of the Superannuation Act of 1859, whereby the addition of years for professional qualifications could be granted, was repealed by Section 5 of the Superannuation Act of 1914, and the office of Surveyor of Prisons will no longer carry with it this privilege.

asked the Home Secretary what sort of professional qualifications are needed for the office of inspector of prisons and surveyor in the prisons department, respectively; and whether a corporate member of the Institute of Civil Engineers in London is held to possess the profesional qualifications required by the Treasury Minute of May, 1886, for either or both offices?

The office of inspector of prisons is usually filled by the promotion of a Governor who has had the necessary training, and who is acquainted with the nature of the duties to be performed. The office of surveyor is filled by a person who has the necessary professional qualifications for such a post. Membership of the Institute of Civil Engineers would carry weight in making the selection for the post of surveyor, but not for that of inspector.

asked the Home Secretary whether the patrol staff of the National Gallery has been reduced from 19 to 14; if so, how many of the 14 men who have been retained are post-War pensioners in receipt of pensions from police funds of £3 3s. a week and upwards; and whether, in view of the fact that the pre-War pensioners are being discharged, he would be prepared to issue instructions that the services of men in receipt of the larger pensions should be dispensed with first when a reduction of staff is being made?

The appointment of the attendants rests with the trustees, and I have no authority to issue any instructions in the matter.

asked the Minister of Health what amount has actually been paid over in grants to private builders of houses on 31st May; what number of houses have been promised by private builders with the aid of the subsidy; and approximately what number of houses does the Ministry estimate will then be needed to overtake the present scarcity in housing accommodation?

Up to 31st May the sum of £3,123,000 has been paid in grants to private builders in respect of 14,515 houses completed in England and Wales. Proposals for the erection of 16,349 further houses involving grants amounting to £4,369,000 have been approved by local authorities subject to the Housing Bill, at present before Parliament, becoming law. I have no doubt that a considerable number of additional houses will be built by private builders under the subsidy scheme, besides those being built by the local authorities, but I cannot at present say how far the shortage will be overtaken

asked the Minister of Health how many housing schemes dealing with slum areas have been submitted to his Department by the London County Council since 1918; the names of such schemes and what decision his Department has given on the same, and if any schemes are at present before his Department waiting a decision; and, if so, what are the names of the schemes and how many existing dwellings do they refer to?

Three schemes dealing with slum areas have been submitted to my Department by the London County Council since 1918. These schemes relate respectively to the Brady Street area, comprising 310 dwellings; to the Bell Lane and Ellen Street area, comprising 360 dwellings, and to the Ware Street area, comprising 313 dwellings. No decision has yet been given in regard to these schemes. Some important questions of policy are involved, and I have recently discussed the whole matter with the London County Council.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the state of overcrowding still existing in the county borough of Middlesbrough, and that despite a shortage of over 3,000 dwelling houses in 1919 less than 400 have been completed; and, as provision has so far only been made for 700 houses in all, will he make it known that when the local authority applies for permission to construct a further number his sanction will not be withheld, if he is satisfied that a state of overcrowding exists?

I am aware that the housing position in Middlesbrough, as in other towns, is not satisfactory, and I can only say that its needs, like those of other towns, will have to be considered in relation to the financial burden which the present housing scheme places upon the taxpayers of the country.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the ill-health of this town, amongst others, is increased considerably by the appalling condition of overcrowding; is he aware that there are thousands of families crowded together, two families in one house, in the borough of Middlesbrough; and does he consider it true economy to prevent the local authority building when the local authority consider it absolutely necessary?

We can never get through the list if every question is argued.

On a point of Order. This is the only opportunity one has of putting—

Order, order! This is not the time for argument.

On the point of Order. With all due respect to you, Mr. Speaker, the right hon. Gentleman said he could not consider the application. May I ask him if the local authority are not in a better position than the Minister himself to know the needs of the locality?

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that Ireland made a very large contribution to the medical and nursing staff of the nation during the War, and that the skill of those serving was to a large extent acquired in the voluntary hospitals of Ireland; if he will explain why Ireland was excluded from the reference to the Committee appointed by the late Minister of Health, and is in consequence excluded from the grant of £500,000 about to be made to the voluntary hospitals of the United Kingdom other than those of Ireland; and if Ireland will be granted a sum at least proportioned to her taxation as part of the United Kingdom?

I gladly acknowledge the value of the work of the voluntary hospitals of Ireland. I understand that Ireland was excluded from the purview of Lord Cave's Committee, as it was thought that the Irish Parliaments might be left free to provide, as they may think fit, for the needs of Irish hospitals. The last part of the question should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in Clause 1 of the Report of the Cave Committee they evidently contemplate the inclusion of Ireland in the reference, and that in Clause 56 they base the recommendation for a grant from the Government upon the fact that the voluntary hospitals of this country did very fine work in treating wounded soldiers? Further, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there was no country which did more in proportion to its resources in this respect than Ireland for wounded soldiers, and will he take steps to prevent gross injustice to Ireland, which will occur if Irish hospitals are excluded from participa- tion in this grant; will the right hon. Gentleman kindly give favourable consideration to this matter, which involves a very great hardship?

As I pointed out in my previous answer, Ireland was not included in the purview of Lord Cave's Committee or in the reference, and therefore the grant which I am going to ask the House to give cannot be affected by any question regarding Ireland. Ireland is not within the purview of my Department, and any further questions on the subject should be addressed to the Chief Secretary for Ireland.

If Ireland had been included in the reference, would the right hon. Gentleman feel it his duty to recommend a grant to Ireland?

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, as Ireland pays its proportion to the taxation of the country, and as this is a grant to relieve hospitals out of taxation, Ireland is not entitled to an equivalent grant for the purpose for which the general sum is intended?

The hon. Member should put that question to another Minister.

May I, then, ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will not confer with the Chief Secretary for Ireland and see if the Irish Government cannot do something on behalf of those who are ill in Irish hospitals, instead of merely driving more people into those hospitals?

I am not responsible for the health of Ireland, and to confer with the Chief Secretary on a matter of Irish business is not within the scope of my duties.

asked the Prime Minister what steps, apart from the grant of money towards voluntary hospitals, he proposes to take to give effect to the recommendations of Lord Cave's Committee dealing with the improvement of the financial position of these institutions?

I have been asked to reply to this question. I am now taking steps to appoint a Hospitals Commission which will be responsible for the estab- lishment of local voluntary hospital committees, for the distribution of the State grant and for assisting in raising fresh revenue and in combining and coordinating the activities of the hospitals generally on the lines recommended by Lord Cave's Committee. The other recommendations of that Committee, some of which would require legislation, are still under consideration.

In view of the fact that the Finance Bill is passing through the House at the present time, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if the Government will consider the Report of the Cave Committee, which recommended that the contributions of employers should be exempt for the purposes of Income Tax?

Yes, that point will certainly be considered.

Will there be a representative on this Commission from Ireland?

No, Sir!

May I ask why there is no representative from Ireland on the Commission?

That arose on an earlier question, and was answered. Any further question should be addressed either to the Prime Minister or to the Chief Secretary for Ireland.

On a point of Order. The reasons given by the Minister of Health as to why Ireland is not getting an equivalent grant from this fund recommended by Lord Cave's Committee was that there was no representative of Ireland on that Committee—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]—and I want to know why there is no representative from Ireland?

The hon. Gentleman has received an answer.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House to answer why? [HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"]

At the end of Questions—

Can the Leader of the House say why there is no Irish repre- sentative on the Committee which is to deal with the allocation of the £500,000 to the hospitals?

It is too late now to raise that question.

asked the Minister of Health whether ladies are employed as enumerators for Census purposes; whether any efforts were made to employ ex-service men for this purpose; and how many women and how many men are actually employed upon the duties?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part of the question, while, as stated in the reply of the late Minister of Health on 2nd March last, of which I am sending the Noble Lord a copy, the conditions attaching to these appointments have rendered them unsuitable for offer exclusively to unemployed ex-service men, and the position in this respect has been fully recognised by organisations specially concerned with their interests, appointments have been made in a large number of cases in which the applicants were able to satisfy the necessary conditions; and though many such persons, as expected, found it necessary to withdraw upon obtaining regular employment, a substantial number are, in fact, being employed. With regard to the third part of the question, the figures desired are not as yet available.

asked the Minister of Health if, in view of the urgent public need of information as to our industrial population, and the fact that the full occupational census has usually taken from three to four years to compile in detail, he will take measures to issue as early as possible an approximate or round figure occupational census showing the rough totals of occupied and unoccupied persons, and the allocation of the occupied population amongst the industries?

As no occupational figures for the whole country, however approximate, could in any event be furnished until every individual return has been examined and classified, it does not appear that advantage is to be gained by any departure from the present pro- gramme. It is intended to prepare and publish the occupational and certain other census statistics by counties. The earliest issue may be expected in a few months, and the whole will, it is hoped, be completed in two years. The importance of these figures is recognised, and every effort will be made to expedite their issue.

Has the right hon. Gentleman quite realised that it is absolutely impossible for this House to frame any sort of intelligent legislation on industrial and social subjects without anything to guide them but the merest conjecture, and will he state what stands in the way of obtaining a rough idea of how the occupied population is allocated among our industries?

The right hon. Gentleman has just answered that question.

asked the Minister of Health whether the next-of-kin to private patients in mental institutions, including the next-of-kin to ex-service men, are informed by the lunacy authorities that they possess the privilege conferred upon them by Section 71 of the Lunacy Act, 1890, of directing the discharge of the patient provided he cannot be proved to be dangerous and unfit to be at large?

I assume that the hon. Member refers to Section 72 of the Lunacy Act, 1890. As regards private patients generally the Section provides for the discharge of the patient by the person on whose petition the reception order was made. As regards ex-service men, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on 16th June to a similar question by the hon. Member for West Bromwich.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many of the 30,000 horses to be slaughtered in Mesopotamia by 1st August have been killed to date; what method of killing these animals is being adopted; and what saving will result from their slaughter, including the nett value of the hides and other products, instead of transporting them back to England?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. As regards the first and second parts of the question, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the replies given to questions on the subject asked by the hon. and gallant Members for Torquay (Colonel Burn) and Faversham (Major Wheler) on the 21st and 22nd June last respectively. With regard to the last part as was stated yesterday, tentative offers are now being considered for the sale of the surplus animals at Basra.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether trouble resulted from a decision to commandeer a Young Men's Christian Association hut for purely military purposes in one of the Dublin barracks; and whether this is one of the huts it is now proposed to close?

I am not aware of any such incident, but inquiries are being made, and I will let the Noble Lady know the result as soon as possible.

asked whether the Young Men's Christian Association and other philanthropic bodies operating huts on War Department land are required to pay rebate to regimental funds; and, if so, on what ground is preferential treatment given to the Navy, Army, and Air Force Institutes?

Owing to the large trade being carried out by philanthropic bodies during the War, it was decided early in the War that philanthropic bodies should surrender such profits as had accrued during the War for the benefit of military charities to be approved by the Secretary of State for War. At the request of philanthropic bodies this award was subsequently reconsidered, and these organisations were given the option of paying a monthly rebate of 6 per cent. on turnover in lieu of the surrender of profits. This procedure has continued in force up to the present date, but the procedure to be adopted as regards the future is now under consideration. The Navy, Army, and Air Force Institutes, which are constituted to manage the regimental institutes of the Army, pay a higher percentage of rebate than philanthropic bodies; consequently, no question of preferential treatment arises.

Is it not true that the Young Men's Christian Association have promised to pay exactly what the Navy, Army, and Air Force Institutes are paying, and is it not really to the interests of the men that the Young Men's Christian Association should go on? It is their wish, and if you consider the interests of the men, and not only the interests of the Navy, Army, and Air Force Institutes, perhaps you will give them the same treatment.

As a matter of fact, I have explained that the Young Men's Christian Association get better treatment than the Navy, Army, and Air Force Institutes.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that rather than be turned out they would go on on any terms, but the policy of the War Office is to get them out?

No. It will be seen that there is no idea of turning them out, but only of not having so many huts of this sort, because they are clearly redundant.

asked the Secretary of State for War if the order for closing the 48 huts, on War Department land, belonging to the Young Men's Christian Association and other philanthropic bodies, would still be enforced if they undertook to confine their activities to religious and social work, including light refreshments, as agreed by the Army Council, which he said was thoroughly appreciated, and with which he had no intention to interfere?

As I explained in answer to a question on 24th May last, the large number of philanthropic institutions which sprang up during the War on War Department land is now quite out of proportion to the requirements of the existing peace establishments of the Army, and it has therefore become necessary to close the 48 huts referred to, which are clearly surplus. I regret that in the circumstances I am unable to accept the Noble Lady's suggestion.

I should like to ask if it is not true that the policy of the War Office is to close down the Young Men's Christian Association huts if they can? That is what I would like to know, if they are trying to do that. Is it right? I think the House does not realise that.

Nothing of the sort. The War Office does not want to close down all the Young Men's Christian Association huts, but only those that are surplus.

Has not the hon. and gallant Gentleman stated in reply to an earlier question that there is no idea of giving preference, and could he not therefore make it clear that, if the Young Men's Christian Association are prepared to pay the same percentage of profits as these other institutes, they will be allowed to continue?

The question will, of course, be considered, but as a matter of fact we are closing down only those that are surplus, and not any of those that are not.

Is it not a fact that these huts are being closed down in a most arbitrary fashion, without any previous notice being given, and will the hon. and gallant Gentleman take an early opportunity in Debate of explaining what exactly is the policy of his Department in this matter?

I am not aware that there has been any arbitrary action at all.

There has.

Do the surplus huts involve any charge on the taxpayer, and, if not, why should they be closed down?

asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that since the issue of the Army Order, dealing with the Special Reserve, about April of last year, no steps have been taken to reconstitute this force as Militia; that many battalions are without commanding officers, and that some are also without seconds in command; and that the great lapse of time which has occurred is making it increasingly difficult for those concerned to persuade officers, who originally sent in their names for new Militia commissions, to maintain any interest in the question; and whether he will take steps to revive the force at an early date?

A short Bill, dealing with the change in title from the Special Reserve to Militia, will be necessary, but I hope that it may be possible to open recruiting during the coming autumn. In the meantime, steps are being taken to select officers for the command of battalions which are to be retained, and which at present have no commanders.

May I ask my hon. and gallant Friend if the Bill will be introduced this Session?

I hope so, but I cannot say for certain.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, seeing that the Committee appointed to consider the respective merits of certain explosive factories declared their preference for Gretna Factory, he will say for what reason their recommendation has been neglected?

The Government had before them all the various solutions of this difficult question propounded by the Committee, but, after a review of all the circumstances, came to the conclusion which I have already announced.

asked whether any estimate has been made of the loss that the nation will sustain by the forced sale of Gretna Factory and the adjoining lands, houses, and workshops; and whether these factories, villages, etc., will be sold as one unit or in sections?

The question of the method of sale of Government property at Gretna will be for the consideration of the Disposal and Liquidation Commission in due course.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will have the suggestions laid before him in regard to the utilisation of the electric and other plants at Gretna factories fully considered and adopted if practicable, so as to alleviate some of the distress with which the district is threatened?

I assume my hon. and gallant Friend is referring to the suggestions made by a deputation from the factory received by me on the 8th June last. After most careful consideration, I regret it was not found practicable to adopt any of the suggestions made.

Do the Government intend to sell this property by sections or as a unit, as it will make a great difference if sold en bloc?