House of Commons
Thursday, July 7, 1921
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Conyngham's Divorce Bill [ Lords ],
Read a Second time, and committed.
Manchester Corporation (General Powers) Bill [ Lords ],
To be read a Second time upon Monday next.
Waltham and Cheshunt Gas Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
County of London Electric Supply Company Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Newark Extension) Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.
West Highlands and Islands of Scotland
Copy ordered, "of Contract, dated the 1st and 4th days of July, 1921, between the Postmaster-General and Messieurs David MacBrayne, Limited, for the maintenance of certain passenger and cargo sea services in the West Highlands and Islands of Scotland, and for the conveyance of mails by certain of the vessels so employed, together with a Copy of Treasury Minute thereon."—[ Mr. Hilton Young. ]
Protection of Animals (Scotland) Act (1912) Amendment Bill
Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendment be considered forthwith," put, and agreed to.—[ Lieut.-Colonel A. Murray. ]
Lords Amendment considered accordingly.
:What means have we of knowing what these Amendments are? They are not on the Paper.
:I have satisfied myself that this is merely a drafting Amendment.
:We are saving money.
CLAUSE 1.—( Amendment of s. 1, subs. (3), para. (b) of Protection of Animals (Scotland) Act, 1912.)
The first Section of the Protection of Animals (Scotland) Act, 1912, Sub-section (3), paragraph (b), shall be amended by the addition thereto of the following words—
"Provided that an animal liberated for the purpose of being coursed or hunted shall not be deemed to have been released from control if it is liberated in an inclosed space from which it has no reasonable chance of escape."
Lords Amendment:
Leave out the words
"Provided that an animal liberated for the purpose of being coursed or hunted shall not be deemed to have been released from control if it is liberated in an inclosed space from which it has no reasonable chance of escape,"
and insert
"and a captive animal shall not be deemed to be coursed or hunted within the meaning of this Sub-section if it is coursed or hunted in an enclosed space from which it has no reasonable chance of escape."
Agreed to.
Oral Answers to Questions
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Labour Corps (T. Crostan)
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that T. Crostan, No. 295,662, Labour Corps, is a miner, now unfit to follow that employment; whether his pension was stopped in July, 1920, without previous notice; whether immediately after he was sent to hospital, and while there warned to attend a medical board, but the doctor declined to let him attend, and later, while still in hospital, was notified that there was no ground for any further award; and whether his treatment allowance stopped on 28th March and no further payment has been made, although he is only fit for light work and at present unemployed?
:This man claimed to be impaired by rheumatism on demobilisation, and pension for that disability was awarded until April, 1920. He was re-examined in March, 1920, when no assessable degree of disablement from rheumatism was discovered, a finding subsequently confirmed by a medical appeal board. A fresh claim in respect of bronchitis was put forward, and pending consideration a provisional award was made until July, 1920. This claim was, however, rejected by the Ministry, and an appeal against that decision is now with the Pensions Appeal Tribunal for hearing.
War Pensions Committee, Hastings
asked the Minister of Pensions if his attention has been drawn to the fact that a letter was forwarded to the Department from Hastings on the 23rd June regarding the position of various pensioners in that town; whether he is aware that in reply the regional director stated that all cases are required to be dealt with in the first instance by the local war pensions committee concerned; and whether, in view of the fact that all the individuals had placed their cases before the local committee previous to the communication being forwarded, he will have inquiries made into the various cases concerned?
:The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative. The fact stated in the last part of the question, however, had not previously been brought to notice, and in view of that fact I am now having further inquiries made. I will inform my hon. Friend of the result.
:Can the right hon. Gentleman say when I may expect an answer?
:As soon as possible. I cannot say more.
Widows' Pensions
asked the Minister of Pensions if a widow whose husband has died from phthisis within two years of discharge from the Army owing to debility is entitled to a pension?
:It is not possible to give a categorical answer to this question, as each case has to be considered on its merits. I may say, however, that it has frequently been found possible to award full pension to the widow when the husband's death has occurred in the circumstances stated.
Assessment Committees
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he will see that the assessment committees encourage medical officers employed in the Ministry to get men who have recovered off the pension list and men who are permanently disabled and in a final and stationary stage on to the list for permanent pension; and is he aware of the grievance felt by men who are aware that they cannot recover at being brought repeatedly before an assessment committee for examination and of the fact that each examination entails a substantial cost to the taxpayer?
:I am aware of the facts stated, and I am entirely in sympathy with my hon. and gallant Friend. I have, in fact, already anticipated his suggestion in the War Pensions Bill which is now before hon. Members, and which is down for Second Reading to-morrow.
Appeal Tribunals
asked the Minister of Pensions what was the number of cases awaiting hearing by the pensions appeal tribunals on the 31st March and the 30th June respectively; whether, in view of the very important nature of their work, the appeal tribunals will sit constantly through the summer vacation; if so, what number; and how many of these will be in the London region?
:The number of cases awaiting hearing by the pensions appeal tribunals on the dates mentioned was as follows: Of the total number of cases awaiting hearing, approximately, 1,000 are cases in which the appellants have already been afforded one or more opportunities of appearing before a tribunal. During the latter part of May and in June additional courts were set up, and 1,000 cases are now being dealt with each week. Further tribunals are in course of formation. Tribunals will sit constantly through the summer vacation. The number of tribunals to sit in August and September has not yet been arranged, but, approximately, 16 will sit during August and 12 during September. The number of tribunals to be allocated to London for the holiday period will depend upon the state of the work in London as compared with other regions.
:Does my hon. and gallant Friend recognise the enormous number still outstanding? Do the Government appreciate the difficulties that are thereby caused? Will steps be taken to materially increase the number of these tribunals?
:The hon. Member had better put that down.
:On a point of Order—
:The hon. Member is taking away from the time of other Members.
:Is it not within the right of an hon. Member to ask a supplementary question dealing with a matter of importance such as is referred to in this question, or are we to understand that no supplementary questions are to be allowed?
:Only to elucidate obscure points in the answer.
:With due deference this is not an obscure point.
:The hon. Member cannot now argue the matter.
Ex-Service Men
Psycho-Analysis
asked the Minister of Pensions if he has any results that will justify the continuation of the treatment of ex-service men by the process known as psycho-analysis; whether he has received any protest from the men compelled to undergo this torture; how many people are under this treatment; and what are the qualifications deemed to be necessary by the Ministry for those who are experimenting with shattered lives?
:Satisfactory results have been obtained from this form of treatment which, however, is in no sense compulsory, an essential element of the treatment being the patient's willing co-operation. The treatment is always given by registered medical practitioners who are specially qualified by previous training or experience. I am unable to state the number of patients who have accepted and are receiving this particular form of neurological treatment at the present time.
:Is the fact made quite clear to the men that undergoing this treatment is a voluntary act on their part?
:If that is not clear, I will have it made clear.
:Is there any sort of pressure put on the men by refusing them certain benefits unless they undergo the treatment?
:No, Sir; I am certain of that. If it is not clear to them now, I will see it is made clear.
:What are the "qualifications deemed to be necessary" on the part of those who are experimenting with shattered lives?
:I cannot say, but if the hon. Gentleman will put down a question, I shall be glad to give an answer.
:Will Members of this House be afforded an opportunity for seeing the hospital methods in this matter?
:Yes, I shall be glad to show them to any Member of the House.
Houses (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary whether any houses are being built in Ireland for discharged or disabled soldiers; if so, how many; what money, if any, has been allocated by the Treasury for this purpose; where such houses have been or are being built; and if any such houses have been or are being built in Belfast or district?
:Houses are in the course of construction under the Irish Land (Provision for Sailors and Soldiers) Act, 1919, but owing to labour troubles and the general state of unrest in Ireland progress has not been as expeditious as could be desired. The amount of money provided for their construction in the present financial year is about £1,250,000. In addition to construction, some new houses have been bought and are now let to ex-service men. The schemes involving the construction of houses are spread over many parts of Ireland. That confirmed for Belfast involves 174 houses, and an increase in the number is under consideration.
:Are these houses being built close together, so that these wretched men, by being near to one another, may have some chance to protect themselves?
:I imagine that that is being done.
Demobilised Reservists
asked the Secretary of State for War whether it has been brought to his knowledge that reservists called up for duty during the late emergency have not been taken back by their employers; and whether he can take any steps to assist such men to obtain employment?
:My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has already asked that all cases where demobilised reservists have not been reinstated by employers for whom they were working when called up should be reported to him. Cases so reported are immediately investigated, so far with very satisfactory results. So far as is known no reservist has failed to be reinstated in his previous employment.
Ireland
Murders
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether a reward has been offered for the death or capture of the hon. Member for South Cork; if so, whether he will state the sum of money offered; whether rewards have been offered for the death or capture of other leading Irishmen; what are the amounts; whether any rewards have been claimed; whether any rewards have been paid out; and on what Vote or Votes will these sums be found?
:The answer to the first and third parts of the question are in the negative. The second and fourth therefore do not arise. The only case in any way similar to that indicated in the question is an award which was offered for the capture of Daniel Breen who, there were strong grounds for believing, was the murderer of Major Smyth, D.S.O., M.C., and Captain White, D.S.O., at the house of Professor Carolan, Fernside, Drumcondra, on the 11th October last year. The award was offered in the case of this man solely on the ground that he was wanted for the specific crime of murder.
:Was the reward offered successful in bringing the murderer to justice?
:No, Sir. I am sorry to say it was not.
:Would a larger reward have any possible result? This murderer ought really to be brought to justice.
:That will be considered.
asked the Chief Secretary the number of Protestants who have been murdered in the County of Cork from 1st January till 25th June, 1921?
:I have asked the Commander-in-Chief for this information, but a reference to Cork is necessary. I only received notice of the question yesterday and shall be glad if the hon. Member will repeat it next week.
asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been directed to the recent murder of John Buckley, labourer, Gurthdrum, County Tipperary; and whether there is any evidence that this man was shot by the armed forces of the Crown?
:I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply which I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for Rothwell.
asked the Chief Secretary if he has any information with regard to the circumstances of the death of Constable Hannon, whose body has recently been found in a bog at Phillips-town, King's County?
:The deceased man was a special constable attached to Clonbologne Edenderry. He was kidnapped while on patrol duty on 19th July last and had not been heard of until his body was found in a decomposed condition in a bog at Ballintogher on 29th June. It is evident that he had been brutally murdered as a rope was found round the neck and there was a bullet wound in the head.
asked the Chief Secretary if an inquiry has been held in respect of the deaths of James Sullivan, aged 20, and Patrick J. Sheehan, aged 28, of Coolasmuthine, Charleville, County Cork, on 29th June; and if attached to each body was a card bearing the words, "Convicted spy; beware. I.R.A."?
:I have not yet received the finding of the Court of Inquiry in this case, but the police report states that the bodies of John Sullivan and Patrick Sheehan were found lying by the roadside, and that each had a label round the neck bearing the words, "Convicted spies; beware." "Irish Republican Army."
asked the Chief Secretary if any arrests have yet been made in respect to the assassination of William Hickey, formerly of Manchester, a young assistant at a furniture shop at Newry, County Down, who was taken from his lodgings on 30th June and his body riddled with bullets?
:No arrest has yet been reported in this case, but the police are pursuing their inquiries.
asked the Chief Secretary whether any arrests have been made in connection with the murder of Constable Shanley, who was fired at after attending Mass at Kildorrey Church, Cork, on 26th June; and if he is aware that his assailants fired a number of shots into his body whilst he was lying mortally wounded?
:I regret to say that no arrests have been made in this case. The Court of Inquiry in lieu of inquest found that the deceased constable was murdered by some person or persons unknown. Evidence was given before the Court that while he was lying on his back in the road one of the assassins fired three shots. into his body.
asked the Chief Secretary if an inquiry has been held into the recent murder of Hugh Newman, an ex-soldier, of Liddergan, County Cavan, who was taken from his bed, blindfolded, and murdered; and if he is in a position to give the finding of such an inquiry?
:The Court of Inquiry in this case found wilful murder against some unknown person or persons of the Irish Republican Army.
:Are ex-soldiers who have received threatening letters and are in danger of assassination allowed to carry arms for protection?
:I answered that question yesterday.
:Is it a fact that ex-soldiers who have been carrying arms have been shot by forces of the Crown because they happened to be on the wrong side?
:I am not aware of that.
:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that an ex-soldier who had four brothers in the Army was murdered in Belfast by the police and no attempt has even been made to bring the assassins to justice?
:No, I never heard of such a case.
:You have, because I put three questions upon it.
asked the Chief Secretary whether any arrests have been effected in connection with the assassination on 28th June of James Doherty, an ex-soldier, who was shot dead at Athlumkart Bridge, Limerick, by members of the Irish Republican Army?
:No arrest has yet been made in this case.
asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been called to the murder of Private Frederick Crowther, of the 2nd Staffordshire Regiment, whose body was found on 28th June riddled by bullets in a field at St. Luke's, Cork; and if this soldier had been shot whilst in a sitting position?
:I have not yet received the proceedings of the Court of Inquiry in this case, but the police report states that the murdered soldier and two comrades had been out for a walk and were returning to barracks about 10 p.m. when they were attacked by nine men armed with revolvers. The soldiers were unarmed and unable to defend themselves. Private Crowther was separated from his comrades, one of whom was wounded in the chest and side, but eventually got back to barracks with the assistance of the other, who escaped by throwing himself on the ground and shamming death. As Crowther did not return the locality was searched and his body was found next day with bullet wounds in the chest, side, and face and behind the ear. Inquiries are being pursued, but so far no arrests have been reported.
:Are soldiers of His Majesty's forces allowed to carry arms in self-defence?
:These soldiers do not appear to have been carrying arms. I cannot say whether they are permitted to do so or not.
:In view of the fact that we had a night's discussion on the necessity of some protection for soldiers and forces of the Crown when walking in the streets in Ireland, and that we had a definite promise that something would be done in that direction, can the hon. Gentleman give us any idea that anything has been done as a result of that Debate?
:I will find out for the hon. Member what has been done in the matter.
asked the Chief Secretary whether an inquiry has yet been held into the death of Edward Weir, of Ballintubber, Castlerea, stated to have been taken from his house by two men on the morning of 30th June; and whether the perpetrators of this outrage have yet been traced?
asked the Chief Secretary if he is in a position to give any details with regard to the murder of Edward Weir, herdsman, employed near Ballintubber, County Roscommon, who was taken from his home in the early hours of 30th June, and whose body was found in a field close to his house?
:The Court of Inquiry in lieu of inquest in the case of Edward Weir found that the deceased was murdered by some person or persons unknown. He was taken from home by two armed and masked men at 3 a.m. on 30th June and was later found dead. It is regretted that no arrests have been made in connection with this outrage.
Burnings
asked the Chief Secretary if he is in a position to give any information with regard to the destruction of the Castle Hotel, Bally-bunion, on 27th June; and if he has any evidence to show that this hotel had been destroyed by Sinn Feiners?
:A fire broke out at this hotel at about 2.30 a.m. on 26th June, and the police found on their arrival that the main part of the building had been completely destroyed. No one was living in the hotel at the time. The neighbours helped the police to extinguish the flames, with the result that the wings and a quantity of furniture was preserved. There is at present no definite evidence to prove how the fire originated.
asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been directed to the recent burning of the Allen Institute, Bandon, County Cork, occupied by the Young Men's Christian Association; and if he can state how many residences and buildings belonging to Protestants in this district have been destroyed by Sinn Fein during the month of June last?
:The Allen Institute in Bandon was almost completely destroyed by fire in the early morning of 29th June. By the time the fire was observed it was beyond control, and all the police and military could do was to try and prevent it from spreading to the Presbyterian Church adjoining. In this they were successful. The institute was built about 10 years ago, and left by Mr. Allen to the Protestants of Bandon, but there were no restrictions made as to its use, and persons of all creeds and classes frequented it to read the papers and play billiards. The police have no doubt that this was an act of incendiarism, but there is at present no evidence as to the identity of the perpetrators. As regards the last part of the question, I am having inquiry made.
:Is it not a fact that attempts are being made to exterminate the whole of the Protestant population of Cork?
:I cannot speak as to that.
Protestant Farmers, Cork
asked the Chief Secretary the number of Protestant farmers who have been forced to flee from their farms in the County of Cork during the last six months?
:I doubt if this information is readily obtainable, but I am having inquiries made and, if the hon. and gallant Member will repeat his question next week, I will do my best to answer him.
Proposed Conference
asked the Prime Minister whether any of the Premiers from the Dominions are about to visit Ireland or will attend the conference to which he has invited the leaders of Sinn Fein and the Prime Minister of Ulster?
:I understand that General Smuts went to Ireland on Tuesday on the invitation of Mr. de Valera. I do not know whether any other of the Prime Ministers intend to visit Ireland. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
:Did General Smuts see the right hon. Gentleman and confer with him before he went over there?
:I am constantly seeing General Smuts.
Women (Murders and Kidnappings)
asked the Chief Secretary if he will state the number of women and children, respectively, murdered or kidnapped in Ireland by the forces of Sinn Fein since 1st January last, the number escaped or restored to liberty, and the number whose fate or whereabouts is unknown?
:Seven women have been murdered during this period and three kidnapped. The latter are all still missing. No children have been murdered or kidnapped. In addition, nine women have been wounded. These figures do not include women and children killed or injured during bomb attacks on police and military lorries in the streets of Dublin and Cork, and attacks on railway trains.
Kidnapping (Constable Duckham)
asked the Chief Secretary if he is in possession of any information with regard to the fate of Constable G. H. S. Duckham, who was recently kidnapped at Macroom, County Cork?
:I am informed that a letter purporting to come from the Irish Republican Army has been received by Constable Duckham's parents stating that he was to be shot. The police have made exhaustive inquiries, but up to the present they have not been able to find any trace of the missing constable.
Health Insurance Benefit
asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that Mr. T. H. Lewis, recently employed by the Congested Districts Board, was unable to receive National Health Insurance benefit owing to the contributions deducted from his wages not having been paid into the Insurance Fund; and whether, under such circumstances, the amount he would have received in sickness benefit will be paid to him, or the deductions from his wages refunded?
:I have asked the National Health Insurance Commission to make the necessary local inquiry in this case at once, and will communicate the result in due course to the hon. Member.
Death (Edward Fitzgerald)
asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been called to a mysterious curfew tragedy in Belfast on the night of Friday, 10th June; whether a man who was arrested after curfew is reported, while being conveyed to the police barracks, to have jumped from a Crossley tender, sustaining injuries from which he died; whether the body remained unidentified, and was subsequently buried in a pauper's grave in the city cemetery in Belfast; whether it has now transpired that there were in the victim's clothing documents which could easily have enabled the body to be identified; whether, as a matter of fact, the man was a Mr. Edward Fitzgerald, 122, Dover Street, Belfast, a veteran ex-soldier, who had served 13 years in the Army, including four years' service in the late War, and who had been in the employment of the Great Northern Railway of Ireland, part of whose railway uniform he was wearing when he met his death; whether he can state who was responsible for suppressing the evidence of identification; why no steps were taken to find out and acquaint the relatives; and what explanation he has to offer on the matter?
:This man was seen acting in a suspicious manner in the vicinity of the College Square, Royal Irish Constabulary Barracks, at 2.30 a.m. on 11th June. When interrogated, he refused to answer any questions or give an account of himself. The police accordingly arrested him under the Curfew Regulations. While he was being conveyed to the police office in a Crossley tender he broke away from his escort and jumped on to the footpath. He was unconscious when picked up, and died a few hours later in hospital without regaining consciousness. There was nothing found on him, either in the shape of uniform or papers, to show that he was employed by any railway company. The only papers found were some betting tickets bearing the name of Edward Fitzgerald, commission agent, Belfast. Exhaustive inquiries failed to trace any man of that name. Every effort was made to ascertain the deceased man's identity, a detailed description was circulated, and a photograph taken, and the body retained for a week in the morgue, but without result, and at the adjourned inquest on 28th June a verdict was recorded that deceased, an unknown man, met his death from fracture of the skull by throwing himself from a Crossley tender. The burial arrangements were made by order of the Coroner.
Lighthouses, Protection
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, with reference to the announcement recently made by the Admiralty with regard to the lights on the south-west coast of Ireland, he can state whether application has been made to the Admiralty and to the War Office for protection of these lighthouses; what has been the result of these applications respectively; if he can state how the raids upon these lighthouses were carried out; what was the strength of the raiding parties; what amount of fog signals was taken away; what is the distance of the Fastnet lighthouse from the shore; by what means did the raiding party reach this lighthouse; and, in view of the grave danger to Atlantic snipping if these lights and fog signals are interfered with in any way, if he will make further representations to the Admiralty as regards those lighthouses which are off the shore, and to the War Office as regards those lighthouses which are on shore, to furnish the necessary protection against rebel raids?
:The Admiralty and the War Office have been approached in this matter, but neither Department is able to provide permanent protection for lighthouses on the Irish coast. So far as lighthouses out at sea are concerned, however, His Majesty's ships will keep in touch as frequently as possible. As regards the second part of the question, the Fastnet lighthouse, which is about six miles from shore, was raided on 20th June by a party of men in two boats. They took away some of the explosives, also stores and binoculars. The Bull Rock lighthouse, which is still further out, was raided on the previous day and explosives and stores were taken.
:Cannot further representations be made to the Admiralty with reference to the extreme importance of maintaining the fog signals on the Fastnet lighthouse, especially in view of the fact that every ship arriving from America has to make that light, and that there is a very easy method by which that lighthouse could be garrisoned and the fog signals protected?
:The Admiralty are aware of the importance of the Fastnet lighthouse, and steps will be taken to see that it is properly protected.
:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in answer to two questions on the subject it has been stated that the Admiralty will not do anything? Will he make further representations?
:Is it not the fact that the Admiralty have referred expressly to the Irish authorities?
:Further representations will be made to the Admiralty on this point.
Police Search, Kildress
( by Private Notice )>asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been called to the events at Kildress, County Tyrone, on Sunday morning last; whether he is aware that in the early hours of that morning over 30 lorries and motor cars conveying special constables from Cookstown and Dungannon drove into the parish; whether this force on arrival broke up into small parties and proceeded to raid and wreck Catholic houses; whether they broke into and set fire to the local Catholic parochial hall; whether they raided the local public house for drink; whether other shops and houses were raided and thrown into disorder in the course of the raid which lasted six hours: whether in one house visited the only occupants were two little girls, the other inmates having gone to their devotions; whether the raiders asked the elder of the two girls to sign a document that no harm had been done, and on her refusing, whether one of them placed a revolver at her head and threatened to shoot her; whether an old man of over 60 returning to his home, was fired at without warning and seriously wounded; whether people returning from church were wantonly fired on without warning, and only escaped death by lying in ditches, and what was the reason and who was responsible for this raid, and will he take steps immediately to disband this force?
:I have made inquiries into the various allegations contained in this question, of which I only received notice to-day. I am informed that a party of Crown forces in four lorries and 14 motor cars visited Kildress on the date mentioned to search for arms owing to the police having been fired at in the locality. A public-house and a number of shops and houses were searched, but the allegation that the public-house was raided for drink is denied. An old man was slightly wounded, but I have not yet been able to ascertain how he came by his injury. Further inquiry is being made with regard to the other allegations, and if the hon. Member will repeat his question on Monday of next week, I hope to be in a position to furnish him with fuller information.
:Will the hon. and learned Gentleman say, in view of the universal acts of rowdyism and the attacks upon innocent people by these special constables, who are really not constables at all, but are only volunteers from Ulster with the authority of the Crown behind them, and in view of the complaints that have been made and the atrocities these men have committed, what is to be done to protect innocent Catholic citizens in Ulster towns from their depredations?
:I do not know of any such state of affairs existing in Ulster as the hon. Gentleman alleges. Every effort is made to answer every question put by the hon. Gentleman.
:Is not the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that a series of questions has been put down, and charges made, and instances published in the newspapers, in regard to this matter? Is he aware that five murders were committed yesterday in Newry by these men, that a lady teacher was shot near Newry by them, and will he state what protection will be afforded, or will this House afford any protection at all, to innocent people who are being murdered in the dead of the night by these people? If the Chief Secretary is not here, will the Leader of the House answer the question? What protection is to be afforded to innocent citizens who are being murdered in the dead of night by the forces of Ulster backed by the Crown? [HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"] Now, Archer-Shee, what have you to say?
( later ): On a point of Order. May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether you noticed the fact that the hon. Member for the Falls Division alluded to me by name, and will you ask him to refrain from doing so?
:Unhesitatingly I apologise for mentioning the hon. and gallant Member's name.
:That was one of those playful matters which the Chair does not notice.
Mr. P. S. Brady
( by Private Notice )asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether it is a fact that Mr. P. S. Brady, Resident Magistrate of Bantry, County Cork, was taken from his home on Monday evening last, by armed and disguised men who drove him away in a motor car to an unknown destination; whether Mr. Brady had only returned to the district after a prolonged holiday abroad; whether Mr. Brady had been ordered to take this holiday because his life might be in danger on account of evidence given by him in connection with the murder of Canon Magner by Black and Tan forces; whether he can state why Mr. Brady was recalled, why he was sent back to this district, and what further information has he to offer in this matter?
:On a point of Order. May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether, in view of the fact that in the question which has just been asked by the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool and in the question asked previously by the hon. Member for the Falls Division of Belfast, there is no particular urgency, it is not an infringement of the rights of Members of this House that these questions should be asked on private notice? I respectfully point out that, if it is permissible to ask these questions on private notice, every one of the very large number of questions which have already been asked today on Irish affairs, after appearing on the Paper, might equally well be asked on private notice?
:It is quite true that questions are sometimes tendered to me which might more properly be put upon the Paper. These questions should be limited to questions of special urgency, but, unfortunately, the discretion in this matter lies with Mr. Speaker, and it is not a very easy one to apply. I have frequently asked Members to put questions on the Paper, but some of them are inclined to try in this way to get an addition to their ration.
:Every effort is being made to ascertain the information sought for by the hon. Member, but, probably owing to the brief notice given, the information has not yet come to hand.
:Will the hon. and learned Gentleman specially inquire into the reasons why Mr. Brady, who was warned by the authorities to leave Ireland and remain out of it because he was in danger of being killed by the Black and Tans—
HON. MEMBERS: Order, order!
:Yes, that was the reason given. Will the hon. and learned Gentleman have special inquiries made why the same authorities sent Mr. Brady back to precisely the same place where the Black and Tans threatened to assassinate him if they got him?
:The question has already been answered.
Greece and Turkey
asked the Prime Minister whether the full text of the Greek reply to the recent Allied representations has been received; and what steps are being taken to end the hostilities between Greece and Turkey or to limit their scope and area?
:The Greek reply just received is of a simply negative character, and does not, therefore, in itself call for immediate further action on the part of His Majesty's Government. While for the moment no further step seems open to His Majesty's Government to end or circumscribe hostilities, no opportunity of doing so will be overlooked or omitted.
:As we have been unsuccessful with the Greek Government, could not we now consult the Turkish Government with a view to avoiding any fighting between ourselves and Turkey?
:I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that that has not been overlooked.
Spain (Treaty)
asked the Prime Minister if the treaty with Spain is still in force; if so, when does it expire; and whether a new treaty is under discussion?
:I have been asked to reply. The commercial relations of this country with Spain are governed by the Exchange of Notes of 1894, the agreement being terminable at six months' notice by either party. Neither party has given notice to terminate the agreement.
Unemployment
Benefit
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the revival in industry, he will consider the advisability of abolishing the dole at an early date, particularly in view of the fact that it is a great expense to the taxpayer and is encouraging voluntary unemployment?
:I have been asked to reply, My hon. Friend is asking for the repeal of the Unemployment Insurance Acts. That is out of the question. And as regards the use of the word "dole," let me observe that for the insurance year, ending July, 1922, the income of the Unemployment Fund will, it is estimated, be £37,000,000, of which employers will contribute £15,800,000 and workpeople £13,750,000. The cost to the Exchequer will be, therefore, slightly less than £7,500,000. I admit that under Section 3 of the Act of last March the grave volume of unemployment made it necessary to initiate conditions for the receipt of benefit less onerous than those which form part of the normal provisions of unemployment insurance. But every care is taken to watch the administration of the benefit under this Section, and under the Act generally, with the view to the avoidance of abuse.
:Can the right hon. Gentleman state how it is increasing voluntary unemployment, as suggested in the question?
:The Minister does not take responsibility for that. Hon. Members ought not to put into their questions words that carry allegations. The object of questions is to obtain information, and not to put the particular views of hon. Members.
Aliens
asked the Minister of Labour the number of aliens registered at the Employment Exchanges; the number in receipt of unemployment benefit; and what proportion of these are of ex-enemy nationality?
:Separate particulars are not kept of the number of aliens registering or claiming unemployment benefit at Employment Exchanges.
Anglo-Japanese Alliance
asked the Prime Minister whether the meeting of Dominion Premiers and Indian representatives has come to any conclusion regarding the renewal or modification of the Anglo-Japanese Agreement; and, if so, what?
asked the Prime Minister what is the present position with regard to the Anglo-Japanese Treaty of Alliance; on what date it is now held to terminate unless renewed by both parties; when he expects to be in a position to make a statement to Parliament on the subject; and whether this House will then be given an opportunity for discussing the question?
30 and 32.
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether the Government has taken any steps, and, if so, of what nature, to bring about a conference aimed at reducing the heavy naval and military burdens which rest on all nations and prevent reconstruction being satisfactorily carried out after the War;
(2) whether at any time the suggestion of a Pan-Asiatic conference has been brought to his notice; and whether, if this is not the case, he will consider the desirability of issuing the necessary invitations to the United States, Japan, and China with the object of terminating the controversies which threaten the peace of the Far East and the trade of this country?
asked the Prime Minister whether, under the Anglo- Japanese Alliance, His Majesty's Government exercises an equivalent voice in Japanese action on the Siberian or Chinese mainland; whether the British Government is consulted before any aggressive or forward policy is adopted by the Tokyo administration; and what happens in the case of a difference of opinion which may be pregnant with serious after-effects?
38 and 39.
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether the Anglo-Japanese Treaty was denounced last year and the fact intimated to the House; whether the Treaty will cease to exist this month; if it is the intention of the Government to extend it for a further three months;
(2) whether he is aware of the action of the Japanese authorities in the Kwantung Peninsula, in South Manchuria, in making use of the Japanese gold currency; whether he is aware that the Chinese Government has sent an official protest to the Japanese Government; and whether, as the British and Japanese Governments are pledged by Treaty to maintain the integrity and sovereignty of China, he will draw the attention of the Japanese Government to the action of their representatives in South Manchuria and advise the repudiation of such action?
:I hope soon to be in a position to make a statement on these important subjects. I am fairly hopeful of being in a position to make a statement on Monday. It depends upon whether replies are received from the United States, Japan, and China; but premature declarations would interfere with the success of negotiations now proceeding. [ The words above printed in italics were inadvertently omitted from the daily issue of the Official Report, col. 623, Thursday, 7th July, 1921— owing to the fact that they did not appear in the copy of the answer supplied in the ordinary way from Downing Street, but were interpolated by the Prime Minister during his reply. ]
:Without going into details, might I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he can answer the last part of Question 29, in which I ask whether this House will be given an opportunity of discussing the question? After the right hon. Gentleman has made his statement, will the matter be open for an expression of opinion by the House?
:I think it would be far better that that question should be put to me after I have stated to the House what action it is proposed to take.
:May I point out that my Question 39 relates to the currency of the Japanese being forced upon the Chinese, and asks whether any action has been taken by His Majesty's Government to insist upon Japan recognising the Treaty, instead of enforcing upon the Chinese people things which do not belong to China?
:I think the hon. Member will find that the answer which I shall give has a bearing upon the whole of these questions.
:Does the old Treaty expire on 13th July of this year, as the result of the declaration made to the League of Nations, or does it automatically continue for another year?
:The answer which I shall give will cover that, and I hope the House will not press me about details.
:Would the right hon. Gentleman make it a little clearer about the right of the House to discuss this matter? Is that denied by the Prime Minister?
:No, I certainly do not suggest that the House should not discuss the matter, if it desires to do so, after that statement is made; but I think it is far better that that question should be put after the House has heard what action the Government propose to take.
:May I again draw the attention of the Prime Minister to the fact that Question 39 has nothing to do with the renewal of the Treaty, which I understand is what he is going to deal with in his statement on Monday? Question 39 refers to action which has already taken place, and which involves a breach of faith—
:Perhaps the hon. Member would put his question in such a form as to ask for a particular answer to the question referred to.
:May I ask if the Prime Minister can give a particular answer to that question, which refers to a breach of the present Treaty, and not to its renewal?
:If the hon. Member finds that the answer which I give on Monday does not cover that, he cam easily put it on Monday. There will be no harm in the postponement till Monday, and I think the hon. Member will find that the answer I give on Monday will be a very comprehensive one.
:What form will the opportunity for discussion take?
asked the Lord President of the Council whether the letter written by the British and Japanese Governments to the League of Nations admitting that the Anglo-Japanese Treaty is not in conformity with the Covenant of the League constitutes no formal denunciation of the Treaty and has no juridical effect; and, if so, what effect, if any, such letter has, and why it was written?
:I would refer the hon. Baronet to the reply just returned by the Prime Minister to other questions on this subject.
Licensing Conference
asked the Prime Minister if he is now in a position to state whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill during the present Session of Parliament for the purpose of carrying out the recommendations of the conference on licensing legislation presided over by the Attorney-General?
:Until the recommendations of the Conference have been received and considered by the Government, I am not in a position to make any statement.
:Is it not a fact that the Attorney-General declared that the Conference has completed its deliberations?
:The Attorney-General has had to go to Manchester. When he returns, I have no doubt he will report.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that if any action is to be taken, it must be taken very speedily? Could he give us any indication?
:It has been given.
:May I ask if there is any reasonable expectation that the Attorney-General's report will be in the right hon. Gentleman's hands in a few days, as, otherwise, no action will be possible this Session?
House of Lords (Ministers)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the feasibility of introducing a Measure to enable such Members of either Chamber who are Ministers of State to take part in the business of either Chamber without the privilege of recording their vote in the Chamber of which they are not summoned or elected Members?
:This is a question which will have to be considered in connection with the proposed reform of the Second Chamber.
:When may we expect the reform of the Second Chamber?
An HON. MEMBER: Never.
Nationality Law
asked the Prime Minister whether the Home Office Memorandum on the Amendment of the Law of British Nationality has been considered by the Imperial Conference; and can he state the general effect of the Government recommendations on the status of Britons born in foreign countries?
:The question is under consideration by the Imperial representatives now in London. With regard to the second part of the question, I would prefer to answer that after a decision has been arrived at.
League of Nations
Cost
asked the Lord Privy Seal how many countries belong to the League of Nations; what is the estimated cost of maintaining the League for the current financial year; and what part of such cost will be borne by Great Britain?
:Forty-eight States are at present Members of the League of Nations. The Budget of the League covers the calendar year and for 1921 amounts to 21,250,000 gold francs or, quoted in sterling, reckoning 20 gold francs to the £, about £1,062,500. Great Britain's contribution is approximately £52,000— the exact amount will depend upon the rate of exchange current at the time the instalments are paid.
:Could the right hon. Gentleman inform us how many nations have been refused admittance to the League?
:The information could very easily be given but I do not happen to have it with me.
:Does the £52,000 include such benefactions as the money granted for dealing with typhoid in Poland or will that necessitate an extra budget?
:I think it is inclusive, but I do not think it includes what my hon. Friend calls benefactions. All the payments are easily available.
:What is the contribution of the whole British Empire?
:I have not that figure here. Of course it is desirable when figures are required that notice of the question should be given.
Health Organisation
asked the Lord President of the Council if he will give the House some information as to the recently announced determination of the League of Nations to look after the health of the world, the manner in which this enterprise is to be conducted, and the probable cost to the taxpayers of this island?
:In pursuance of Articles 23 and 25 of the Covenant, the League is proceeding, as it is bound to do, to set up an International Health Organisation. At the present moment the arrangements are in the initial stage only. Great Britain makes a lump-sum contribution towards the expenses of the League, no part of it being earmarked to particular branches of the League's work.
:Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House any information as to the value of this contribution even as a measure of preservation against plague?
Staff, Geneva
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the number of British clerks, male and female, employed in the offices of the League of Nations at Geneva, the terms and conditions of their employment, and the cost involved?
:The Secretariat of the League of Nations is divided into two categories, namely, the administrative and clerical sides. The majority of the former have been engaged for a period of five years, but, as regards the latter, appointments are usually terminable at a short period of notice on either side. The total number of the British members of the secretariat of both categories is 120 with a present salary roll of 1,206,960 gold francs.
Naval Armaments
asked the Lord Privy Seal when it is probable that the inquiries now proceeding with respect to the future requirements of the Navy, and the number and class of ships which it is desirable should be provided in the light of the experience gained during the recent War, will be completed; and whether a Report on the subject will be issued before any decision is come to as to discussing with America or other countries proposals for the reduction of naval armaments?
:The problems of Imperial defence and the limitation of armaments are among the subjects under consideration by the Imperial Conference, and I can make no further statement upon them at present.
:Have not the United States decided that the existing programme shall go forward, and is it not a fact that if that is carried out the United States will then be the largest naval Power in the world?
:I deprecate my hon. and gallant Friend pressing me with questions about a matter which is entirely for consideration by the Imperial Conference. I do not think any good purpose could be served by partial and imperfect answers such as alone I could give.
Sales Tax, Canada
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consult the Prime Minister of Canada, who is now in this country, as to the merits of the turnover or sales tax now in force in Canada and also as to whether the revenue from this tax is in excess of any other form of taxation either previously or at present in force in that country, with the view to its adoption in this country?
:As the Leader of the House informed my hon. Friend on the 1st March last, whatever may be the merits of a turnover tax, it is not considered that the present time is a favourable one for introducing a new tax on trading transactions in this country. In any case, in view of the very heavy pressure upon the time of the Prime Minister of Canada during his stay in this country, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not feel justified in asking him for information which is obtainable through normal departmental channels.
Motor Vehicles Duties
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the moneys derived from the duties upon mechanically propelled vehicles will be used solely for the improvement of roads; whether the Treasury have any intention of utilising the road fund for any other purpose; and if there is any change of policy contemplated with regard to the application of this fund?
:The application of the proceeds of the duties on mechanically propelled vehicles is governed by Act of Parliament, and could only be altered By a further Act of Parliament. I am not aware of any intention to introduce such legislation.
Government Staffs and Offices
Inland Revenue
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will investigate into the great increase in the cost of the outdoor establishment of the Inland Revenue, which in 1913–14 amounted to £304,520, when the work was done by officials known as surveyors of taxes, with a staff of 1,784 persons, which in 1920–21 had increased to £1,719,970, exclusive of a large War bonus, the work in the latter period being done by persons described as His Majesty's inspectors of taxes, who require a staff of 5,215 persons?
:The expansion of staff to which my hon. Friend draws attention has been necessitated by the immense additions to the work and responsibilities of the Inland Revenue Department which have resulted from the increased complexity of tax law, the imposition of new duties, and the increase in the number of Income Tax payers. The number of taxpayers has grown from 1,200,000 in 1913–14 to 6,000,000 in 1920–21.
Furniture Stocks
asked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he is aware of the large stock of redundant furniture stored at Chiswick and other depots, and that by repair or conversion a large part of this furniture could be used and thus obviate the purchase of new furniture; and whether he is satisfied that this furniture is being used to the best possible advantage?
:I am fully aware that there are large stocks of redundant furniture released through reduction of staffs in Government Departments, and every opportunity is taken to meet current demands for furniture from these stocks to obviate the purchase of new furniture. The answer to the last part of the question is in the affirmative.
:Has the hon. Gentleman made inquiries as to whether Government Departments are not purchasing new furniture at very high prices and disposing of this very suitable furniture at ridiculously low prices?
:I have made special inquiries and have satisfied myself that that is not so.
:Is it not a fact that not only in reference to furniture, but also in reference to other things, you are selling the very goods which you are buying?
:What would become of the big businesses if they did not?
Office of Works
asked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, the number of men engaged in or on administrative duties, and the number of men engaged on the industrial staff in the engineering, building, and supplies sections, respectively, of the Office of Works during the week ending 4th June, 1921, and the corresponding figures for the first weeks in June, 1919 and 1920?
:The number of men engaged in or on administrative duties at the beginning of June, 1919, 1920, and 1921 were, in the architects' division, 642, 719, and 974; in the engineering division, 122, 156, and 180; and in the supplies' division, 303, 287, and 290, respectively. The number of industrial and manual workers employed at the same periods were, in the architects' division, 1,361, 1,436, and 5,286; in the engineering division, 421, 1,631, and 1,495; and in the supplies division, 971, 2,094, and 1,424, respectively.
Allies' Debts to Great Britain
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been directed to the suggestion appearing in the public Press to the effect that a cancellation of the debts contracted by the Allies to Great Britain against an equal value of British manufactured goods, raw materials from the British Colonies bought from Great Britain, and freights for goods carried in British bottoms, would help to solve the international exchange problem, would considerably help British trade, and prevent unemployment; and whether the matter will receive his serious attention?
:My right hon. Friend's attention has been called to the suggestion, which will receive due consideration.
Safeguarding of Industries Bill
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether in his Budget Estimate for this year he has taken account of any revenue that may be derived from the duties imposed by the Safeguarding of Industries Bill?
:The answer is in the negative.
:Does the Treasury expect to receive nothing in respect of this 33⅓ per cent. duty?
:That is not the question put to me by the hon. Member, and that implication is not contained in my answer.
Disturbances, Alexandria
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that after the Egyptian police and troops had utterly failed to restore order in Alexandria during the recent outbreak two platoons of British infantry appeared on the scene, with the result that the rioting: and looting immediately stopped; and whether His Majesty's Government in Egypt have taken any steps to inform the Egyptian Government that in future, should the Egyptian police and military be unable to quell disorder likely to result in the death of or injury to Europeans, British troops will at once be placed in charge of the town or district: in which outbreaks have occurred?
:With regard to the first part of the question, I am not at present in a position to add anything to the statements that have already been made on the subject of the disturbances at Alexandria. With regard to the second part of the question, I would refer the Noble Lord to the communiqué addressed to the Egyptian people by His Majesty's High Commissioner on 26th May, in which Lord Allenby made it clear that the ultimate responsibility for the maintenance of law and order in Egypt devolved upon himself.
:Will my hon. Friend take steps to ascertain whether the assertion in the first part of my question is not true? It is very important. He says he has no information. Will he take steps to get the information?
:I will communicate that request.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if his attention has been called to the fact that information that has now reached this country through various unimpeachable sources has dislosed a far more serious state of affairs in Alexandria during the riots at the end of May than appeared in the official announcements; whether he is aware that a number of Europeans were, under circumstances of great brutality, murdered and others seriously injured, including children of tender age; that for several hours the greater part of Alexandria was in the hands of the mob, who attacked every person in European dress; and that the shouts raised by the mob showed that the oubreak was a fanatical, anti-Christian, and anti-European one; and whether, in view of these circumstances and the alarm felt by the foreign community in Egypt (especially the Italian community), for the safety of whose subjects His Majesty's Government is responsible, he can give assurance that effective steps have been taken to prevent a recurrence of such incidents?
:I would refer the Noble Lord to the replies given to the hon. Member for East Cardiff on the 2nd ultimo, and to the hon. Member for Stafford on 26th May. Until the findings of the Court of Inquiry are available, it would obviously be undesirable to make any statement on the subject of the disturbances.
:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that since those questions have been answered persons have arrived in this country who witnessed these crimes, and will he give an undertaking in view of the great indignation among the foreign population, that steps will be taken now, without waiting for an inquiry, to prevent a recurrence of these incidents, and is he aware that openly-expressed threats have been made by the foreign communities in Egypt that, in the event of a recurrence of these riots, seamen will be immediately landed from the French and Italian battleships in the harbour to do the work of His Majesty's Government?
:Will the hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of attempting to solve this unrest by giving the Egyptian people a Government managed by themselves instead of a Government imposed upon them?
:Will the hon. Gentleman answer my question?
:The answer is the latter part of the reply which I have given. Lord Allenby will take measures to see that these troubles do not recur.
:What are those measures? Why are we refused information on the subject?
:Has not his His Majesty's Government received representations from the Italian Government asking them to take steps to look after Italian subjects?
:I am not in a position to answer at the present time.
Anti-Bolshevik Forces
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a Note has been received from the Russian Government protesting against any assistance being given through the League of Nation's Council to the anti-Russian troops still in arms; and what answer has been returned?
:A Note has been received from Monsieur Chicherin, expressing a hope that His Majesty's Government will not encourage the formation of anti-Bolshevik forces. The Soviet Government is well aware that His Majesty's Government have no intention or desire to encourage the formation of such bodies, and no reply has been returned to the communication in question.
:Will the hon. Gentleman take into consideration the reply given to a question some weeks ago, in which he stated that we were committed to expenditure for the maintenance of these anti-Soviet forces, and will he take into consideration the amount similarly expended in the past on refugees coming from Czardom?
Far Eastern Republic
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why His Majesty's Government has not recognised the Far Eastern Republic, in pursuance of their declared policy of recognising all the States which formed part of the late Russian Empire?
:His Majesty's Government are not satisfied with regard to the stability of the Far Eastern Republic, and as direct British interests in those regions are not great, they do not propose to give recognition to the Republic at the present time.
:Is His Majesty's Government equally sure of the stability of other countries whose Governments we have recognised?
:Is the Eon. Member aware that the Far Eastern Republic has already disappeared?
Education
Young Persons, Employment
asked the President of the Board of Education whether an inquiry has been set up under the joint auspices of himself and the Minister of Labour as to the arrangements which should be made to assist young persons under the Labour Exchanges Act and the Education Act, 1910, to obtain employment which the Ministries in question may deem suitable; whether these arrangements, should they mature, will mean compelling more young people to have recourse to Labour Exchanges and become members of a trade union if they wish for employment; and did he obtain the sanction of the Prime Minister before he set up this inquiry?
:I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal on the 14th June to the hon. Member for the Hulme Division of Manchester. I cannot anticipate the recommendations which Lord Chelmsford may make in the result of the inquiry which he has undertaken at the request of the Government, but I am certain that he will aim at making it easier and not more difficult for young persons to obtain suitable employment.
Chief Inspector, Wales
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he has yet come to any decision as to the appointment of a chief inspector of schools for Wales; and, if so, to whom the appointment has been given?
:The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative.
Manslaughter Charge, Haddenham
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether ex-Sergeant-Major-Henry Room, of Haddenham, Buckinghamshire, is now in Oxford Prison committed upon a charge of manslaughter; whether he will be tried before October next; and whether, in view of the man's splendid military record, and the circumstances in which Room's friend met his death in a brawl in the Veteran Comrades' Club at Haddenham, the trial can be expedited or Room released upon bail?
:Room stands committed both by the magistrates and the coroner. I know of no way of securing his trial before the next Assizes, but I will ask the coroner and the magistrates to consider whether he can properly be released on bail.
:Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it a very unsatisfactory state of affaire in which a man is left four months in prison without trial?
:And in Ireland, too?
:Yes. It is very unsatisfactory.
:Is it unsatisfactory only in England?
Hotels and Restaurants (Alien Employes)
asked the Home Secretary whether he will insert a Clause in the proposed Licensing Bill making it compulsory for hotel and restaurant proprietors to employ not less than 75 per cent. British-born subjects on their staff?
:I do not think that a Licensing Bill would afford a suitable opportunity for the suggested provision.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a small Clause like that would give employment to thousands of unemployed ex-service men?
:In any case it would be a matter for an Aliens Bill rather than a Licensing Bill.
Cenotaph (Ensigns)
asked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether the idea of removing the ensigns now upon the Cenotaph has been given up; whether it is thought that bronze representations of these ensigns would in any way be as fitting or in sympathy with the design; and whether, if a scheme can be devised whereby the cost of replacing the ensigns when necessary will be defrayed by the three Services jointly, the Office of Works will support such a proposal?
:There is no intention of substituting bronze for the existing flags on the Cenotaph. The First Commissioner would be prepared to give sympathetic consideration to such a proposal as that referred to in the last part of the question, should he be approached by the Departments concerned.
:Is there any prospect of a change in this respect?
:I think not.
Office of Works (Contracts)
asked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he will state the number of jobs given out to contractors for the building, engineering, and supplies sections, respectively, of the Office of Works during the past nine months; the number of tenders received for the same; and the proportion allocated to each contractor?
:The number of contracts placed by this Department during the period in question was 3,219, and the number of tenders received was 17,444. Separate records are not kept under the three categories given, and to analyse these figures as the hon. Member suggests would involve long and extensive research. I would therefore ask the hon. Member not to press for this information or for details of the number of contracts allotted to each contractor.
:When these contracts are received, is the work given out according to schedule, or is it paid by commission, according to the wages and the material used?
:I would require notice respecting details of that kind.
Finance Act, 1915 (Motor Tyres)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will now remove the exclusion of the motor tyres under the heading of accessories and component parts of motor cars, motor cycles, and motor tricycles in Section 12 of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, seeing that the reason for their exclusion is now non-existent?
:My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer regrets that he is unable to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion.
:Is it not generally understood that any trader can at any time apply to get any article included within import duties if he so desires?
Russian Trade Agreement
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has seen a statement in the Press that Mr. Krassin's legal advisers have told him that until the House of Lords has decided upon the appeal in Luther versus Sager the legality of all trade transactions with the Soviet Government of Russia remains in doubt, and that the whole question will remain suspended until next October at least; and whether he has any statement to make on the matter?
:I have seen the report in the Press, but I cannot undertake to make any statement on the legal question involved.
Prudential Assurance Company
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that on the 31st December, 1919, the Prudential Assurance Company had 751,887 War Bond policies in force in their industrial branch producing an annual premium income of £2,260,493; that in the company's annual returns filed at Somerset House they state that the death risk on these policies amounts to £18,617,730; that this statement is misleading, as the risk is not one-quarter of that amount and could not have been at that date more than £4,654,000, nearly a difference of £14,000,000; that the balance sheet of the Prudential Assurance Company for 1919 showed that the dividends to shareholders was £400,000 when, as a matter of fact, the actual sum paid to the shareholders, including Income Tax, was £520,000; and that an item of £120,000 is put down amongst the expenses of the management, whereas in fact that sum is not expenses at all, but payments made in respect of and for the benefit of the shareholders; and if, in the interest of the policy-holders, he will take action to ensure that the valuation and auditing of accounts of all life offices should be undertaken by Government or State actuaries and auditors?
:The answer to the first part of this question is in the affirmative. With regard to the figure £18,617,730, I am advised that from an actuarial point of view these figures are correctly stated as representing the maximum sums which at any time may become payable under these policies. I am aware that the dividends for the year 1919, amounting to £400,000, were paid free of Income Tax which involved an additional benefit for the shareholders. All valuations lodged with the Board of Trade in pursuance of the Assurance Companies Act, 1909, are submitted for the consideration of the Government Actuary, and, as at present advised, I am not prepared to take action with a view to the accounts of all life offices being audited by a State auditor.
Vagrant Wards, Houghton-Le-Spring
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the hardship cast upon a large number of ex-soldiere and other workmen, who are on the roads in search of employment and who are without shelter or sustenance, consequent upon his refusal to allow the Houghton-le-Spring board of guardians to open their vagrant wards; and whether he will state the reason for his action?
:In view of the special arrangements which have been authorised for the admission of ex-service men to the guardians' main institution and of the comparatively small number of vagrants who have been refused admission to the casual wards I should doubt whether the closing of these wards has in fact resulted in any serious hardship, but if the guardians still desire to reopen the wards I do not propose to raise any further objection.
Fever, North London
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that there is a large amount of scarlet fever, diphtheria, and other simliar diseases, in Tottenham, Hackney, and Stoke Newington, and other districts in or near the valley of the River Lee, and that pollution of the River Lee might produce or encourage such diseases; whether he is aware that the condition of the water in the River Lee is so bad that fish are unable to live in it; and whether he will take steps to ensure that sewage discharged into the River Lee is properly treated and purified before such discharge?
:The increase during the last few weeks in the number of reported scarlet fever and diphtheria cases in or near the Valley of the River Lee is not disproportionate to the increase in other parts of the Metropolitan area. There is no clear evidence that epidemic spread of these diseases in the neighbourhood of a river can be caused by river pollution. As regards the last part of the question, I have received representations from one of the local authorities in the Lee Valley as to pollution by sewage and I am inquiring into the matter.
Divorce (Poor Persons)
asked the Attorney-General whether his attention has been directed to the protest of Lord Mersey in the Divorce Court; whether he is aware that Lord Mersey struck out the petitions of five poor persons because neither solicitors, counsel, nor witnesses were present; that Lord Mersey protested against the way in which poor persons' cases were dealt with; and whether he proposes to adopt any means for preventing the need for such protests from His' Majesty's judges?
:The Attorney-General asks me to say that he is informed that out of the five cases struck out by Lord Mersey, three were petitions of persons admitted to sue under the Poor Persons Rules. The conduct of cases under those rules rests with the solicitors to whom they are assigned. Inquiries were instituted immediately after Lord Mersey's action into the circumstances of these cases, and a thorough investigation will be made into the matter. As regards the future, new rules regulating poor persons' litigation, came into operation on the 1st January last. The three cases now under notice arose under the old rules.
:Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire into the case of poor persons in Scotland where no such incidents could occur?
Coal Industry
Wages
asked the Secretary for Mines to name the districts in which a profit-and-loss account for the whole of the district will be kept; and to state for what period such an account will be kept?
:For the purpose of fixing the percentage payable on basis wage rates the aggregate net proceeds will be ascertained from time to time for each of the districts set out in the Schedule to the terms of settlement which have been circulated in Cmd. 1,387 of 28th June, 1921. The periods for which these ascertainments will be made are provided for by paragraph 10 of the terms of settlement.
:Will the miners' wages be fixed on the average profit realised for each district?
:Yes.
asked the Secretary for Mines what are the districts now agreed upon between the mineowners and the men to which the new wage standards are to apply; and to what extent they vary from the districts before in existence?
:The new standard wages for all classes of workpeople at all pits are paid upon a uniform principle in all districts. The actual amounts vary for different classes of workpeople and for different pits in the same district.
asked the Secretary for Mines to state, in respect of each of the following coalfields, Northumberland, Durham, Yorkshire, Lancashire, Cheshire and North Wales, Derby, Nottinghamshire, and Leicestershire, Staffordshire, Shropshire, Warwickshire and Worcestershire, South Wales and Monmouthshire, other English districts, East of Scotland, and West of Scotland, including Linlithgowshire, what were the comparable wages in force on 31st July, 1914, offered by the mineowners on the 31st March, 1921, offered by the owners on the date of the ballot which authorised a continuation of the strike, and accepted by the men in the settlement recently made?
:I have not the information necessary to enable me to give the figures required for exactly the districts enumerated in the question. I have, however, amplified the figures which I gave in answer to a question by the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness on May 5th, and will circulate the statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I ought to point out that the offer on which the ballot was taken in June and the offer finally accepted were joint offers made by the owners and the Government.
The following is the statement promised:
— Average earnings of adults. Estimated earnings of adults. June, 1914. March, 1921. March offer (for April). Ballot offer (until end of July). Settlement offer (until end of July). s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. Cumberland 6 11 17 11 9 11 15 11 Lanes and Cheshire 6 8 17 0 13 2 15 0 N. Staffs 7 7 15 9 11 4 13 9 N. Wales 6 4 16 4 9 8 14 4 Salop 5 1 15 9 10 9 13 9 S. Staffs 5 3 16 0 9 5 14 0 Cannock Chase 6 8 16 0 14 2 14 7 Warwick 6 7 16 8 12 11 15 3 S. Derby 6 10 16 8 15 4 15 3 Leicester 6 4 16 9 16 9 15 4 Yorks 7 8 18 5 17 2 17 0 Notts 7 2 18 6 16 2 17 1 N. Derby Scotland 7 2 18 6 14 4 16 6 Northumberland 6 11 17 10 12 9 15 10 Durham 6 10 17 11 12 11 15 11 S. Wales 7 4 19 5 12 5 17 5 Somerset 5 0 15 0 9 11 13 0 Forest of Dean 5 7 15 8 9 3 13 8 Bristol 5 0 15 6 9 8 13 6
NOTE 1.—The figures of the estimated wages under the coalowners' offer of March, 1921, are based upon the average reduction per shift for workpeople of all ages. The reduction for adults would have tended to be slightly greater, but it is impossible to give an accurate estimate of the exact amount.
NOTE 2.—The figures of the estimated wages under the offer on which the ballot was taken assume that the composition of the districts would have been the same as that which has now been agreed.
British and Foreign Supplies
asked the Secretary for Mines whether he can make any statement on the comparative fuel value of British and foreign coals, as shown by the recent experience with imported French, Belgian, German, and American fuel?
:Coal from each country varies very widely in quality. I do not think a general statement on the subject would be of any value.
Post Office
Registered Letters
107.
asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been drawn to an action in the Thorne (South Yorks) county court, in which it was stated that notice to quit a farm had been sent by registered letter, the registration certificate being produced; whether the Post Office was unable to furnish proof of delivery; and, if so, whether he can state the reason?
:I am making inquiries and will communicate with the hon. Member.
Telegraph Messenger Girls
asked the Postmaster-General what wages, including war bonus, are paid to telegraph messenger girls; whether it has been found necessary to send them in couples; whether they were employed through stress of war, and could one ex-service man disabled only in the upper limbs do the work of two girls; whether any increases in pay or war bonus have been given recently, that is, within the last three months, to telephone operators in Glasgow, and, if so, how much; and what is the weekly pay, with war bonus, of such operators?
:Temporary girl messengers in Glasgow under 16 years of age are paid an inclusive wage of 19s. a week; at 16 years of age the rate is 24s. a week. It has not, as a general rule, been found necessary to send them out in pairs, save in exceptional cases. The employment of girl messengers was a War measure, and the girls are being gradually replaced by boys; the work is not suitable for adults, nor would it be economical to employ them. No increases in pay or war bonus have been granted to telephonists in Glasgow within the last three months. The basic wages of telephonists in Glasgow now range from 16s. to 33s. a week, according to age and service; the bonus additions range from 26s. 5d. to 54s. 6d. a week. The bonus payments will be substantially reduced on the 1st September next.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these girls are continually walking about in pairs in the streets?
:Why are girls being replaced by boys? Is there any legitimate reason?
:In some cases it has been found necessary to send two girls together instead of alone. With regard to substitution, I think a promise was given as to the replacement of girls by boys.
:Is it not undesirable that girls should be walking about the streets in that way?
:In view of the statement that this work is not suitable for adults, is this to be considered as a blind alley occupation for boys?
:I am very glad to have the opportunity of stating exactly the opposite. Recently new arrangements have been made for the boys in this Department to continue their service to the State by working in other Departments.
Road, Newcastle (Stafford-Shire)
asked the Minister of Transport whether anything can be done by his Department to get the road from Leycett Station and Crackley, in the Newcastle (Staffs) rural district, put into a condition to carry traffic?
:I am having inquiries made, and will communicate with my hon. and gallant Friend in due course.
Russian Trade Delegation (Constantinople)
( by Private Notice )asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he could give the House any further information with regard to the arrest of some members of the Russian trade delegation at Constantinople, and whether the Government intended to demand an explanation of the conduct of the members of this delegation in accordance with Article 13 of the Russian trade agreement?
:I have not at present any further information regarding the arrest of certain members of the Russian Trade Delegation at Constantinople. Until the full evidence is in the possession of His Majesty's Government, it would be premature to discuss any possible action vis-à-vis the Soviet Government.
:Have the Government not had a complete Note on this matter from the head of the Russian trade delegation in Britain, and how is it that they have not got the information required in view of the fact that these incidents occurred this day a week ago?
:Before the hon. and gallant Gentleman replies, may I ask whether the Foreign Office has any knowledge of the statement made in the Press that, in addition to a plot to assassinate Sir Charles Harington, there was also a plot to throw out mines to sink our warships. If that is proved to be the case, will the Government demand an explanation under Article 13 of the trade agreement?
:Of that question I must have notice. As to the question put by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull, I think the Government is bound to rely upon its own sources of information, and from those sources it has not yet received a full account of what happened.
:May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether it is allowable for the Government to burke discussion-of a matter by refusing information which they could quite easily have got on a subject of this importance? This is the last day on which we can ask questions this week?
:Ministers have only official information. It is not for them to give some third party information.
:When does the Foreign Office expect to get this information from Constantinople? Has he asked for it by telegram?
:I must have notice of that question.
:May I put it to you, Mr. Speaker, that it is possible for a Government, if they are permitted, to burke discussion on a matter of great public importance by saying that they have not the information when apparently full information is in the possession of the Government from the detailed accounts that have appeared in the Press? May I ask for your protection in this matter?
:I shall be delighted to afford that protection.
rose —
:We cannot now pursue this matter any further.
:I merely wish to ask whether we may have the information on Monday next if we repeat the question?
:The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is unfortunately absent. I understand that he has telegraphed for information on this matter.
British Warships (Constantinople)
( by Private Notice )asked the Leader of the House whether it is a fact that British warships have been instructed to proceed to Constantinople; whether there is any danger of hostilities, and whether the House will have an opportunity of discussing the matter before hostilities are entered upon?
:I think I am entitled to say that notice was only given of this question at three o'clock, since my hon. Friend and I entered the House. I will do my best to answer it on that short notice. I informed the House early last month that the Commander-in-Chief in the Mediterranean was about to visit Constantinople with the Fleet, in the ordinary course. No fresh instructions have been issued by the Admiralty, and, from the information in my possession, I know of no reason to anticipate hostilities.
:Are we to understand that the Admiral is to sit quiet until the Kemalists capture Constantinople, and that this House is to discuss the matter before action is taken?
:Certainly not. As far as my information goes, the Kemalists have shown no intention of violating neutral territory. If British forces or Allied forces are attacked by enemies, they will defend themselves without waiting for the result of any discussion in this House.
Business of the House
:May I ask the Leader of the House what business it is proposed to take next week?
:On Monday we propose to take the Church of Scotland Bill, Report and Third Beading; the Committee stage of the Ways and Means Resolution on the Finance Bill, which is in pursuance of a pledge given by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer; the Water Undertakings (Modification of Charges) Bill, Second Reading; and, if time permits, other small Measures on the Paper.
On Tuesday and Wednesday we propose to take the Safeguarding of Industries Bill;
On Thursday, the Colonial Office Vote;
On Friday, further stages of any of the small Bills remaining on the Order Paper, but I hope, though I cannot speak with confidence, that there will be time available for the discussion of the Second Reading of the Criminal Law Amendment Bill [ Lords ].
:May I ask if anything more is to be heard of the Scottish Estimates?
:Not next week.
:If, on Monday, the House desires to discuss the Prime Minister's statement on the Anglo-Japanese Alliance, does the right hon. Gentleman propose to find time for that discussion during the week?
:Hypothetical questions are not permissible. The Prime Minister has said that he will deal with that matter in his statement, and we must first hear his statement.
:When does the right hon. Gentleman propose to put down the Irish Votes, so that we can discuss the conduct of the uniformed miscreants in Ireland?
:The Supply for the allotted days is very rarely announced long in advance. The hon. Member knows that these matters are usually arranged through the channels of communication between the different parties in the House, and we must try and find time convenient to such Irish Members as are still left to us.
:As this is a question vitally affecting life in Ireland, will the right hon. Gentleman give such Irish Members as are still left an early opportunity of discussing the grave matters occurring in that country, and perhaps of preventing them occurring?
:If I thought that the giving of an early day would prevent these things occurring, that would certainly be a great reason for complying with the hon. Gentleman's request, but I cannot observe that the discussions hitherto have contributed to that desirable end.
:Will the Criminal Law Amendment Bill be starred as a Government Measure, or will it be left to take its chance among private Members' Bills?
:I hope that we shall be able to find time for it, but we do not make it a Government measure.
:Did the right hon. Gentleman notice that the Prime Minister to-day gave a contingent promise of a discussion on the Anglo-Japanese Alliance? If advantage be taken of that promise, will the right hon. Gentleman give us the opportunity?
:The. hon. and gallant Gentleman founds a question upon a contingency, and, so far as I can follow him, upon two hypotheses. Will he wait until the contingency occurs, or until at least one of the hypotheses has been realised, and then put his question again?
:Without at all presuming that the Government will redeem any promise given, may I ask when an opportunity will be given for a discussion of this important matter?
:No, I will not answer that question.
:Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he proposes to take the final stages of the Finance Bill? Many firms, in view of the holiday season now commencing, have to take stock, and it will be a convenience to them to know what alterations are to be made in the Finance Bill.
:I do not think that it is safe to announce the business for more than one week ahead, but subject to the qualifications which must necessarily attach to any expectations which I express now, I hope that we may proceed with it in the week after next.
:As the Criminal Law Amendment Bill was drafted by a Committee set up by the Government, and is an agreed Bill—
:Not agreed!
:There are only certain small sections which oppose it. Would it be possible for the Government to make it—
:I do not think that is a question which under the rule can come after a Quarter to Four o'Clock.
Standing Committees (Chairmen's Panel)
Mr. JOHN WILLIAM WILSON reported from the Chairmen's Panel: That they had appointed Sir Halford Mackinder to act as Chairman of Standing Committee A (in respect of parts of the Railways Bill allocated to that Committee).
Report to lie upon the Table.
Conygham's Divorce Bill [Lords]
Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Lords to request that their Lordships will be pleased to communicate to this House Copies of the Minutes of Evidence and Proceedings, together with the Documents deposited, in the case of Conyngham's Divorce Bill [ Lords ].—[ Mr. Morison. ]
Bills Reported
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Taunton Extension) Bill,
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Dover Extension) Bill [ Lords ],
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Wandsworth, Wimbledon, and Epsom District Gas Bill [ Lords ],
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,
Public Health (Officers) (No. 2) Bill.
Croydon Corporation Water Bill, with Amendments.
Amendments to
Cattedown Wharves Bill [ Lords ].
Mid-Glamorgan Water Board Bill [ Lords ].
North Eastern Railway Bill [ Lords ].
Earby Urban District Council Bill [ Lords ], without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to constitute a water board for the Rhymney Valley with power to acquire certain water undertakings and works; to construct new works and to supply water; and for other purposes." [Rhymney Valley Water Board Bill [ Lords ].
RHYMNEY VALLEY WATER BOARD BILL [Lords]
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Selection (Standing Committees)
Standing Committee A
SIR SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee A (during the consideration of the Railways Bill (allotted portions)): Mr. Allen Parkinson, Lieut.-Colonel Raw, and Mr. Rodger; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Hurd, Mr. Grundy, and Mr. Woolcock.
SIR SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Members to Standing Committee A: Sir Edgar Jones and Major Mackenzie Wood.
SIR SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Members to Standing Committee A (during the consideration of the Railways Bill (allotted portions)): Sir Arthur Shirley Benn, Colonel Sir James Greig, Mr. Gould, Major Malone, Sir John Randles, Mr. Sexton, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Rhys Williams, Captain Sir Beville Stanier, Colonel Penry Williams, and Mr. Stephen Walsh.
SIR SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee A (in respect of the Railways Bill (allotted portions): Mr. Betterton, Sir Eric Geddes, Mr. Walter Halls, Mr. Hallas, Mr. Hannon, Sir Harry Hope, Mr. Inskip, Lieut.-Colonel Jackson, Mr. MacVeagh, Mr. Munro, Mr. Neal, Mr. Frederick Roberts, Mr. Marshall Stevens, Mr. C. D. Murray, and Mr. Trevelyan Thomson.
Standing Committee C
SIR SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Members to Standing Committee C: Mr. Wintringham and Mr. Charles Williams.
SIR SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Members to Standing Committee C (during the considera- tion of the Corn Production Acts (Repeal) Bill): Mr. Forestier-Walker, Captain Fox-croft, Mr. Hinds, Mr. Jodrell, Mr. Lunn, Mr. Raffan, Mr. Robert Richardson, Colonel Sir Alexander Sprot, Captain Reginald Terrell, and Lieut.-Colonel Willoughby.
SIR SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee C (in respect of the Corn Production Acts (Repeal) Bill): Mr. Acland, Mr. Morison, Mr. Cautley, Mr. George Edwards, Captain FitzRoy, Mr. Gardiner, Sir Arthur Boscawen, Lieut.-Colonel Walter Guinness, Sir Evan Jones, Mr. Lane-Fox, Mr. Munro, Mr. Pretyman, Mr. Walter Smith, Sir Ernest Pollock, and Mr. Swan.
Standing Committee D
SIR SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Ten Members to Standing Committee D (in respect of the Representation of the People (No. 2) Bill): Colonel Ashley, Sir John Baird, Mr. James Brown, Mr. Finney, Mr. Dennis Herbert, Lieut.-Colonel Claude Lowther, Sir Alfred Mond, Dr. Murray, Mr. Shortt, and Mr. Sturrock.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
Orders of the Day
SUPPLY [16TH ALLOTTED DAY].
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates, 1921–22 [Progress]
Class II
Mines Department of the Board of Trade
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £113,910, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Mines Department of the Board of Trade."— [ Note. —£98,000 has been voted on account. ]
:It was generally agreed last week that this Vote should be put down to-day in order to furnish an opportunity for a general discussion on the policy of the Government with regard to the late stoppage in the coal industry. The Committee may congratulate itself on having the Chancellor of the Exchequer present to make that complete defence of the Government which last Friday he announced that he was in a position to make. I think, on reflection, that the right hon. Gentleman will agree that he was a little petulant last week in this matter. On the Supplementary Estimates for the railways, the question of the coal dispute was raised, but at that time it was not within the knowledge of any Member of the House that there was any chance of any negotiations, and particularly of any negotiations which were likely to take a favourable turn. The question of the connection between the Supplementary Estimate for the railways and the coal stoppage was raised by Members on this side of the House in perfect good faith. The Chancellor came in, and, in a manner which I think upon reflection he must regret, a high and mighty manner, he deplored the turn which the discussion had taken. He declined to say anything upon the point, said that he had a complete defence to make, and then walked out of the House. I believe that he will be willing to accept our assurance that in raising that point at that stage we had no idea that we were likely to prejudice any negotiations that were going to take place. If there had been the faintest shadow of reason to suppose that was the case we should have refrained, as we did refrain later on.
A settlement has been now made, and we are in a position to look at the situation, as we ought to look at it, and the results that have followed. We have had a stoppage of a great industry in this country. The loss to one of the parties to the dispute, the miners, has been estimated at something like £50,000,000 in wages; so far as I have been able to compute it, the stoppage has cost the taxpayer £20,000,000, apart from the subsidy of £10,000,000; the mineowners have been injured because their property, particularly in the early stages of the stoppage, suffered a, considerable amount of damage; and the general cost to the community I have seen estimated by those who are in a position to form some reasonable idea at something like £250,000,000. Therefore we are to-day discussing a policy that has produced a situation which has entailed an enormous cost upon the community. One of my colleagues says that the whole thing might have been avoided. That is really the issue which we have to consider this afternoon. If a charge lies against the Government, and I think some charge does lie against them, it is that if they had adopted a different policy and different methods the stoppage might have been avoided, and we should not have incurred this loss.
We cannot this afternoon and in this place go into the general questions of the responsibility for the stoppage and apportion the blame between the three parties, the mineowners, the miners, and the Government. It is perfectly true that there are mineowners in the House, but they are not here in an official capacity; it is perfectly true that there are representatives of mining constituencies here, and that there are many Members seated on these Benches who have great sympathy and a community of interests with the miners, but their official representatives are not here, and it would be a futile proceeding to attempt to apportion the share of responsibility. I do not say that the mineowners have no responsibility or that the miners have no responsibility. However much I might be disposed to say the latter—and there is no Member outside the Labour party who has more sympathy with the miners than I have—I think, after the letter which Mr. Frank Hodges wrote to the "Western Mail," it would be impossible to say that no responsibility rests upon the miners at all. We can, however, and we ought this afternoon, to see what responsibility the Government have in the matter. They are here, and the Ministers who have been mainly responsible are here. We have the Chancellor of the Exchequer who, as President of the Board of Trade, conducted the negotiations, and was responsible for the policy of the Government at the critical period of the stoppage. As Chancellor of the Exchequer, he is now reaping the harvest of the action of the Government, and he has to foot the Bill which I submit was very largely incurred at the Board of Trade. I am going to make two charges against the Government. First, that they produced the situation which led to the stoppage, and, secondly, that they took no steps to ease the situation. With regard to my first charge, I want to base myself, so far as I can, upon statements made by Ministers themselves. I suppose that I cannot find anything better than the statement made by the Prime Minister. I have here his statement made in the House on Tuesday of last week. He was dealing with the policy of the Government during what he called the temporary period of the settlement, and these are his words: were in complete control of the mines. They decided what coal should be used at home and what should be sent abroad, what were the prices to be paid at home and what were the prices to be paid abroad, and what happened? The Government took a very short-sighted view of the coal situation, and they allowed the very highest possible prices to be charged for coal exported abroad. That was a policy very much resented on the Continent. Our Allies, allied with us in a great common cause, found themselves exploited in one of the great necessaries of life, and in that policy of exploitation the Government not only took part, but they were controlling it; they could have stopped it, but they did not stop it. They wanted to build up a fund, to have a great profit out of the coal industry, which they might apply in defraying some of the war expenditure, and I put it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the result of their policy was this, that, in the first place, these high prices charged for exporting coal abroad induced a great flow of coal from America to the Continent, and Europe filled itself up as far as it could with American coal; in the second place, it intensified the demands which the French were making for reparation in the form of coal from Germany; and, in the third place, it justified, or it provoked, a demand at home for higher wages. It was the fact that these high prices were realised for export coal which bulked in the eyes of the miners at home, which led to the demand for higher wages, which ultimately got wages in the mining industry up to that high point from which they came crashing at the moment of decontrol.
I submit that the situation on 31st March which led to the coal stoppage was a situation produced by this policy of the Government. Owing to that policy, you got, on the one hand, wages at home raised in the coaldfields to a point to which they never would have been raised if it had not been for the enormous sums realised in the export trade, and, on the other hand, you had the export trade of this country killed. The Prime Minister spoke of "the almost complete collapse of the export trade," and that is the difficulty now which is having to be met by a subsidy of £10,000,000. I say that "the almost complete collapse of the export trade" was due to the shortsighted coal policy of the Government during the period in which they had control. They killed the export trade, they forced wages up in this country, and then they got to a point when, having killed the goose that laid the golden eggs, when the export trade had collapsed, when their funds were becoming depleted, when they found themselves face to face with a loss, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on 8th March, 1921, in presenting the Coal Mines (Decontrol) Bill to this House, used no other argument in support of the Bill than the fact that the conditions in the mining industry were involving this country in the loss of £1,000,000 a week. That was his only argument at that time. He was met from these benches, and from other parts of the House, with appeals not to decontrol hastily, to give time, but he said, "I cannot give time, because we are losing £1,000,000 a week. We lost £5,000,000 last month, we shall lose £5,000,000 more, and we cannot afford it. We must therefore decontrol now." I submit that the condition into which the coal industry had been brought at that time was a condition brought about by the short-sighted coal policy of the Government.
My second charge is that, being face to face with that situation, they did nothing to ease it. The situation was that, if the mining industry were decontrolled, if it were handed back—or thrown back would be a better term—to the mineowners, it was thrown back under conditions such as made it impossible for them to sustain it. They had the industry handed over to them at a time when there was what the Prime Minister called an "almost complete collapse" in the coal export trade, and at a time when wages were at an abnormal height, and in those conditions they were asked to take over the industry. I do not blame the mineowners very much for what has taken place during the last three or four months. Indeed, I find it difficult to see that they could have done very much more than they did. I think they have made concessions now which they might have made earlier, but in the situation as it stood on 31st March, if the matter was to be viewed entirely in the light of industrial conditions as they existed before the War, and if they had to take back that industry as a private business, they had no recourse but to make a severe and sharp cut in wages, and it was that severe and sharp cut in wages which the miners were prepared to resist, and did resist, with all the powers at their command. Three months have gone by, and we have got a settlement. The settlement has been made by conceding to the men, for the temporary period, everything that they fought for on 31st March. On 31st March they wanted some pooling arrangement, and we have given them a pooling arrangement; for three months they have got a national pool of £10,000,000 to dip into. On 31st March they wanted, instead of the severe and sharp cut in wages, that the fall should be graduated, that wages should come down step by step. That is what has happened in other industries. There are Members in this House who are the leaders in other industries which have had to face the great change in trade which the last few months have brought upon us and who have had to make wage cuts; they have made these wage cuts by steps, and there have been no stoppages there.
I have before me a statement issued by the Mining Association, which may be taken as fairly authoritative, which is based upon a return showing the effects of the new proposals upon the various districts. I look at South Wales, and I see that the wage reduction per shift there is 11s. 7¼d. When the Prime Minister came down last Tuesday week and wanted to present some argument that would enable this House to swallow a subsidy of £10,000,000, how did he do it? He said: stoppage. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is very much amused by all this. Three months' stoppage in a great industry and a loss to the community of many millions of pounds is a subject of amusement to him.
:That is not what I am amused at. I am amused at the hon. and gallant Gentleman's arguments.
:I expected to get that answer from him. The Chancellor will have an opportunity later on of getting the House to share in his amusement, and we shall see to what extent that happens. I am putting it to him, as seriously as I can, that the Government did not do on 31st March what they did on 28th June. They did nothing to meet the situation; they made no attempt to ease it. On 28th June they found out the virtues of a £10,000,000 subsidy. Nothing was heard of that on 31st March. I have made a careful search to find out on or about what period this £10,000,000 subsidy was first mentioned, and, as far as I am able to ascertain, it was not until 29th April that any mention was made of it in this House, when mention was made of it by the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself stating that the Government had offered £10,000,000. That was a month after the men were out. The men were out then, and an offer which might have been of the utmost value and effect if made before they came out is, as everybody knows who has had anything at all to do with industrial disputes, a very different thing when it is made after you have got your men out and after they have endured the hardships that these prolonged industrial disputes bring in their train. Nothing was done to graduate the fall. On 31st March the men were asking for a flat-rate reduction over the whole country. The Government said they could not have it, and must submit to reductions in the districts. What has taken place now means that for the next three months the principle of a flat-rate reduction all over the country is allowed. The Prime Minister, again, in his speech told the House that for the temporary period
I have asked a number of questions during the last two or three days as to what is going to take place. I have been told by the Secretary for Mines that the district settlement would not involve the pooling of profits. I am speaking of the settlement during the longer period. What I would like to ask is this: While they do not involve the actual pooling of profits, they do involve a book-keeping pool. That is a point on which I might have the close attention of the hon. Gentleman—that the settlement does involve a book-keeping pool of profits. You have got to ascertain what were the whole profits made in the industry. Some collieries will make larger profits and some smaller, and you will have a pool of these profits, at all events in the book- keeping sense. When you have ascertained what is the sum total of the profits made over the whole of the district, and that, of course, involves the consideration of what has been the whole of the proceeds of this district, you get your standard wage fixed and standard profits fixed, and then you go to the question of any surplus. I put it to the Secretary for Mines that this does involve this: that you may get a standard wage fixed in the district which is more than the poorest collieries can pay out of their profits. Inside the district you may have collieries which are not making any profits at all. You get the sum total of the profits in the district considered; you get a wage fixed which may be more than the poorest collieries can manage, so that you are going to get a. struggle for existence inside each district and wages and profit conditions fixed under which some of the collieries may go out of existence. That does not appear to be a principle likely to make for peace.
Nothing is done in the settlement to deal with the real question upon which the prosperity of the coal industry in this country depends: that is, the question of dealing first of all with the coal, and later with the organisation and technical efficiency of the mines of the various districts. We have had great stoppages threatened in industry, almost as great, if not greater, than the coal industry. We have been threatened with a stoppage in the cotton industry. That was got over without any interference from the Government. A stoppage was threatened in the engineering industry, and a joint recommendation, I understand, has been come to, and there seems a reasonable prospect of industrial peace there. In the railway industry you have an industry under almost the same conditions as coal of Government control. So far as increases of wages are concerned a different policy has been pursued by the Government. The Government have a Bill before the House at the present time, the passage of which is needed to prevent in the railway industry such a stoppage as has taken place in the coal industry. It has prevented it by applying the spirit of agreement with financial help.
The Minister of Transport approached the situation in the railway industry in a different spirit to that in which the right hon. Gentleman approached the situation in the coal industry. I for one invite him—and this is my last word—to explain to the House how in dealing with the great railway industries of this country the Government have been able to carry out a policy which bids fair to prevent what has happened in the coal industry? What were the causes which prevented him dealing with this situation and coming to a satisfactory agreement earlier? What you have got to answer this afternoon are, it appears to me, two questions! First of all, whether it is true or not that the policy of the Government did bring about a situation which led to the coal stoppage; and, secondly, why on the 25th or the 30th of March did not the Government come forward with that assistance to the coal industry which they came forward with on the 27th June; and why it was necessary that this country should go through this great period of industrial strife before the Government were able to see their way to apply principles which, when they were applied, and given help, which when it was given was able to bring about a settlement?
:I beg to move that Sub-head A [ Salaries, Wages and Allowances, £173,605] be reduced by £100.
In rising to move this reduction I am perfectly certain that everyone in this Committee will sympathise with the task of the right hon. Gentleman. It is not an enviable task. I am sure I carry the Committee with me when I say that if the tact and personal popularity of the Minister for Mines could have settled the dispute, it would never have occurred. In the short time in which I propose to address the Committee I do not wish to say a provocative word. I do not wish in any way to hinder what I trust will be a lasting settlement. I do, however, most strongly protest against the habits of secrecy and the way in which this £10,000,000 was voted here. Not only were we appealed to by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House not to speak in Debate, but all the arts of Parliamentary usage, which are well known to Members of the House, were employed to prevent people getting up and asking any questions before this sum was voted. Of what were the Government afraid? Why this unnecessary secrecy? It seems to me that the Government and many of those who served in the Government during the War, have got so accustomed to secrecy that they have brought it into peacetime conditions; and I, for one, protest most strongly against the sum of no less than £10,000,000 being voted as I have stated. The Prime Minister last night made a speech. He alluded to the fact that in days gone by Bills were passed through Committee almost without Amendment or discussion; those were the good old days when little or no discussion took place in this House. But I should think that the shades of Disraeli and Gladstone must have wondered, or perhaps shuddered, if they knew that £10,000,000 had been voted without discussion. It may be good bureaucracy: it is precious bad democracy, and I protest most strongly against it.
The reason I put down this Motion for a reduction, which I shall briefly bring before the Committee, is in the hope that we may get from the Chancellor of the Exchequer some clear reasons as to why this sum is actually required, or some further particulars about it. I am not arguing whether it is a good or a bad thing, but I would bring to the notice of the right hon. Gentleman that there are a great many people in this country who are by no means sure that this £10,000,000 will not partly, at any rate, be wasted in the way in which it is administered. I want to have it made perfectly clear that no subsidy of this kind will be given to other industries, and that it will not be repeated in this industry at the end of the three months. I want to be assured that this large sum will be used economically, and not used to bolster up worn-out pits; that it will be used economically in every respect. There is another point which, I think, is germane to the subject, though perhaps not strictly in accordance with the Vote on the paper, and that is in regard to unemployment in the coalmining industry. Will any of this money be employed in assisting those who are unemployed because they cannot go back to the mines? Particularly I would like to know whether unemployment money will be paid out of this subsidy to the men at those pits which were flooded, or which had works at the pit-head damaged, owing to the action of the miners? I should like to have an answer on that point?
:I can reply to that at once. The £10,000,000 will be used to assist wages.
:Then I have it from the right hon. Gentleman that these men will get unemployment pay. [HON. MEMBERS:" No, No!"] Well, I leave it at that. Another point which I wish to have made perfectly clear is: Who is going to get the profits which are at present being obtained in the coal industry? I asked to-day what was the price of coal in London. It is £4 10s. per ton. It will, of course, be gradually reduced, but undoubtedly for some weeks there will be a big demand for coal by people who have no coal in their cellars, and these will undoubtedly pay large sums in order to obtain something which at the present moment they have not got and are much in need of. I would very much like to know what is going to happen to these large sums which can be extorted from consumers at the present moment? There is another point in connection with this matter. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he considers that the industries of the country can be supported with coal at the price at which it is at the present time, a price at which it is likely to continue for two or three months. I realise that there are very special circumstances in connection with the granting of this £10,000,000. I quite realise that during the War undoubtedly the taxpayer and the consumer received some benefit from control, they got coal below cost of production, but whether it was a wise thing to extort such large sums from the foreigner is very doubtful, although this is not the right time to discuss that point. It must be remembered that there was also a sliding scale of wages in South Wales which was dependent upon profits. There is also this to be said for the men engaged in the coal industry, that with few lamentable exceptions there was a complete absence of disorder in every mining area. I think we should recognise this fact on behalf of the great majority of the people employed in the pits of this country.
I want to look at this question from the point of those engaged in other industries, and I cannot help thinking that the ordinary man, who does not understand the subtleties of this House, may be inclined to think that there has been almost a travesty of justice in this case. A week ago we discussed the unemployment benefit, and we reduced it by 5s. and 3s. a week, and the very next week we gave £10,000,000 to the very people who, to a large extent, caused the unemployment. I am not going into the details of the case, but it will be said in some parts of the country that all the Government have done in this matter is to reduce unemployment pay by 5s. and 3s. There is also the case of the cotton industry and agriculture. The people engaged in agriculture will not hear a full account of what happens in this House. They will hear an account from their trade unions and at the street corner. The agricultural labourer will be told that his wages of 46s. 6d. may be reduced owing to doing away with the Wages Board, and they will be told at the same time that the Government are giving £10,000,000 to the miners, whose wages are even at this moment less than the great majority of miners would have earned under the mineowners' original proposals.
The average man does not understand how difficult things are in this House, and he will come to the conclusion that we have got a somewhat opportunist Government in power who pay more attention to the higher organised trade unions than to the less well organised, and are continually seeking the line of least resistance, thus proceeding from one blunder to another. The broad facts are as follows: The miners and the mine-owners benefit either directly or indirectly from this subsidy, and the taxpayer has to foot the bill without one word of explanation. I want to be assured that money will not be used to subsidise other industries, that it will not be renewed in this industry should there prove to be unrest at the end of the first period. I also wish to be assured that it will not be used uneconomically, or to bolster up pits which from economic reasons ought to be closed down, and I should also like to know who is going to get the initial profits from the high price of coal during the next few weeks?
:I should like to refer to some of the remarks which have fallen from the hon. Member for East Newcastle (Major Barnes). In the course of his argument he accused the Government of being responsible for the present position of the coal industry. Knowing something of the feeling which has been occasioned and engendered in foreign countries owing to statements of the nature which have been made by my hon. and gallant Friend, I think it is highly desirable that the whole question of the export prices of coal should be made perfectly clear. So many arguments have-been used by the Opposition on many occasions against Government control under the Limitation of Prices Act that all those arguments have been used in foreign countries as the means of propaganda to instil into the minds of our late Allies a great deal of bitterness against this country.
The position is this. During the time that coal was being sold in this country at a price that was considerably less than the cost of production it was highly essential that unless the Government were going to subsidise the coal industry that they should, owing to the uncertain quantity available for export, provide a reasonable amount of profit to make up the loss on the home production. The Government were not in the position on account of the uncertainty in the industry itself of being able to limit that export price to any stipulated figure. From week to week and month to month there was always a threat of a strike, or rather a stoppage, and continual disputes seriously limited the quantity of coal available. Consequently, the minimum price for export had to be fixed on an uncertain basis, and some time last year we were charging Italy and France 105s. per ton for Welsh coal. Our total exports then were 29,000,000 tons as against 75,000,000 tons which were available in 1913, and that with 120,000 more men employed in the coal industry. What has been the result of that? That the £60,000,000 left in the pool last year has been dissipated—it has not been spent in profits—and lost to the industry since October of last year.
Now an attempt is being made to make political capital out of this position, and it is argued that the Government should supplement wages for something which the Government were not responsible for, because I say that the miners were responsible for this state of things by reducing the available output from 75,000,000 tons in 1913 to 29,000,000 tons in 1920. Those are the facts. I am not here to defend the Government, but I think it is just as well that we should realise the position created. In 1913 we find the wages cost per ton was 6s. 4d. We find at that time that the total timber and stores, royalty costs, and other costs, exclusive of depreciation, amounted to 2s. 3½d., making up a total cost of 8s. 7½d. per ton. We also find that in 1920 the wages costs were 25s. 9½d. per ton, and the total cost, based on the same charges as were made in the industry in 1913, make the total up to 34s. 1¼d. per ton, and that is for the whole year. In 1913 the number of persons engaged in the industry, according to the official returns, was 1,110,000 as against 1,204,000 in 1920, and the average output in 1913 was 259 tons per man as against 190 tons per man in 1920.
:Will the hon. Gentleman tell us the relative number of men working at the coal face in 1913, otherwise he has no data to base his calculations upon?
5.0 P.M.
:That is not relevant to this point. We have to deal with the number of men dependent on the industry. The number of men employed in the industry is the question with which we are now concerned. In dealing with that question I am firmly convinced that the whole question was one really of wages, the pool idea being put forward for certain political purposes and subsequently it was withdrawn. We have to look at this question from the point of view of every other industry in the country, and one is absolutely appalled at the costs we are faced with, and we are appalled that a settlement has been arrived at which did not guarantee output as well as wages. The thing we have to consider, and which is most essential, is that we shall get our industries going again. We have 2,150,000 people unemployed. Nearly every one of those people is unemployed because of the fact that in the industries in which they are engaged, whether shipbuilding, or engineering, or brick-making or the cotton trade, the basic costs of the materials which they need are so high as to make competition with foreigners impossible. In the engineering trade, in which such a large percentage of the populace are employed, we have something like 34 per cent. of unemployment, and not only that, but we have no orders and no prospect of orders. We are faced with the fact that American steel and American bars are coming into this country at £4 and £5 per ton less than we can actually produce, and, more- over, at a lesser price than we shall be able to produce even if we have a further 10s. reduction in the price of coal per ton. We get Belgian boiler plate in this country at £7, £8 and £9 per ton, as against our £14, £15, and £17 per ton, and this, although the manufacturer has cut his profit to the minimum, because we as manufacturers are more concerned about getting our industries going and keeping our factories running than about profits. We cannot get orders. In the meantime we have this settlement, which has no guarantee whatever of output, and with wages which are going to be, more or less, on the same scale as they were before. We see, further, that the already overburdened industries of the country are going to be taxed to pay £10,000,000 to the very section of the community—and I say this without in any way wishing to engender passion—which has been more responsible, in the words of Frank Hodges himself, for more distress and misery in this country than any other section of the country.
In the City of Cardiff, which I represent, we have 3,000 seamen who have been out of work, more or less, for the last three months. In one boarding house in Cardiff 130 men are being lodged in a place that is licenced for only 13, and the police cannot take action. Those men are not drawing unemployment pay, and they are not drawing any of the £10,000,000 subsidy. We have got out coal fillers, who have been forced out of work—not only since the date of the strike, but forced out of work through restriction of output, and the quantity available for export, ever since 1918. They are not getting anything; they are not even drawing unemployment pay. We have got casual labourers at the docks, thousands of them, some of them drawing a reducted dole; they are getting nothing, and they are asking me why it is I am supporting a Government which can condone a settlement of this kind, which, they say, we shall have to pay for ultimately in indirect taxation and, when we get back to work, indirect taxation. I am convinced, after a careful study of the industrial situation and the financial situation, that what the Labour party have been advocating, a levy on capital, the destruction of capital, is rapidly being brought about by this Government itself through settlements of this kind. Capital is being absorbed in taxation. People are paying their taxes out of capital. There is a shortage of money in the country for industrial purposes, due to causes for which the Labour party are responsible. There is no confidence in industry, and the Labour party should always remember that capital represents the savings and the thrift of the million and one investors in public companies. [HON. MEMBERS: "And the profiteering!"] In times like the present, with unemployment increasing, with the difficulty of raising fresh capital for industry, with the absolute necessity of most industries finding fresh capital for development, with a demand from all countries for extended credit, which we cannot give them, we are faced with a settlement of this nature, which neither predicates hope in the mind of the manufacturer nor brings content to the general mass of the people. I was hopeful that when the Government settled up with the miners the prime thought would have been to take the other industries of the country into consideration in the. terms of settlement. But we find that the outlook of the Government has been concerned with three things—the Government's political position, the position of the miners, and the position of the coal owners.
The Minister of Labour gave us an assurance yesterday that men who have not returned to work at pits which had been stopped through the breakdown of the pumping machinery would not receive unemployment pay, but what about the 150,000 or 160,000 men who will never be taken back into the industry because there is no room for them? Are they going to draw unemployment pay? The settlement proposes a reduction of wages over a period of three months—2s., 2s. 6d., and then 3s. per shift, and towards meeting the distress which will be occasioned by the lack of demand for coal we have this £10,000,000. But what is to happen at the end of the three months? If there is anybody in this House who has any belief that the coal industry will have got into an economic position by the end of September, I say, with all due respect and humility, he is absolutely mad. There is no prospect of it, not the slightest prospect of it. Our foreign markets are not buying. They cannot buy. They have not the money to pay 45s. to 50s. for best Welsh coal to-day. Our Overseas Trade Department is not in the position to help us with extended credit. The Americans, and even the Germans, are coming forward and giving 90 days' credit, or six months' credit, and in some cases three years' credit; and we are not in a position, on account of the fact that we are getting no practical help, to give any more than 30 days' credit. and very likely not that. When we consider, also, that our industries instead of getting orders are losing orders, that we do not know what the price of coal is going to be for domestic consumption, that we have got no orders, that there is going to be a lessened demand, and that we are facing the time of year when the home demand for domestic consumption is less than at any other time of the year, it is absolutely impossible to think we shall have the coal industry in an economic position, and wages at a really economic level, in three months' time. What is to be the position then? Will the Miners' Federation come to the Government and say, "A position has been created which we did not foresee," and is the Government going to give them another £10,000,000? Or if there is no £10,000,000, and the men are unemployed, are they going to be recipients of a further sum in the shape of unemployment pay? No man wants to see any other man starve. I should like to see every man in this House work as hard as I have had to work myself. [ Interruption. ] We have to stick to the main facts, and not introduce extraneous arguments that have no bearing on the point. We are face to face with the position where the liability of the people of the country in September is unknown, and I, for one, have the greatest possible fear that by the time September and October come our industrial position and our trading position will be infinitely worse than it is to-day. I feel that this settlement has not been entered into with a full review of the industrial possibilities and economic output. I do not care in the least what the returns may be which are available to the Government.
A few days ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a hopeful speech, and we are only too anxious to believe it, but industrially we cannot see it. We do know this, that we are losing orders, that we cannot get orders, and that until we get coal which is produced—not at the expense of the miners' wages, but as the result of more intensive effort—at 22s. per ton, we are not going to be able to compete in the markets of the world. We have to realise that practically all the South American countries, the countries in Central Europe, and other countries, are sending their orders to Germany and Austria for machinery, simply because they are able to give a guarantee of delivery, and are able to produce at a much lower rate than we are. We have to admit that the difference in exchange has a great deal to do with it, but it has not all to do with it, and workmen in Germany are living to-day better, comparatively speaking, than in pre-War days, and are doing far more work per man per day than before the War. [HON. MEMBERS "NO!"] I will give an instance, because I do not believe in making statements without having specific knowledge behind them. A certain steamer, of which I happen to be the managing owner, came up for a repair job at Barry—a £30,000 job. At that time we had a strike threatened—this was only 12 months ago, and the usual thing came along: the boilermakers threatened to come out. I sent the boat across to Rotterdam, and got the job done there in nine days, as against 28 days, the men working two shifts, and also four hours overtime per shift, making 24 hours a day, and the total cost was 20 per cent. less than the cost would have been in this country. The men doing the work were men who had left this country to go there and get other work.
As far as I know, the people of the country are altogether opposed to the principle of subsidies which is in this settlement, and are bitterly opposed to the fact that the miners have got £10,000,000. If the Government force me into the position of going to the country and fighting, I will be willing and glad to do so, and I am certain that we will be backed up. In this settlement the Government have not made a settlement which is going to put us in a better position than we were before. We are faced with the same difficulty and uncertainty. We have no prospect that the industry is going to gel on its feet. We do know this, and I say it to the miners, and I want them to remember it, that we shall be faced with far more unemployment in the future than in the past. I support the Amendment moved by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Tonbridge (Lieut.-Colonel Spender Clay), and I would like to know what part the Mines Department played in this last strike? We know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, having been President of the Board of Trade, continued in that office to deal with the strike, but what did the Department of Mines do that in any way helped to avoid the strike, or helped when the strike came? With the exception of getting statistics and giving licences for the shipment of coal, what did it do? It is costing us £250,000 per annum. What are its functions except interfering with the industry? I have nothing to do with the anti-waste stunt, but if we are going to start anti-wasting, let us start on an entirely unnecessary Department. I hope Members of this House will not hesitate, if this Amendment is forced to a Division, to express their condemnation of the action of the Government in entering into a settlement of this nature without taking specific pains to consult the other industries of the country to see whether or not they will benefit or be prejudiced by the settlement.
:I am sure the Committee has been very much interested in what has fallen from the last speaker, who has made more than one able speech of that character, and I shall, if he will allow me later on, say a word or two of criticism on some parts of his speech. But there is one difficulty I feel at the outset. I am not quite sure what it is he recommends. He complains very much of the settlement which has been made, and I quite admit it is open to his criticisms and to other criticisms. But what, in the position in which the Government and the other parties, the miners and the mineowners, had brought the country, would he have had the Government do? Would he have said that the strike must go on for another six weeks, or until the men had been forced by starvation, or by great pressure at any rate, into the position of having to accept any settlement that might be offered? I cannot think he would have advocated such an un-statesmanlike policy as that.
:I did suggest that we should have had guarantees inserted in the settlement.
:After all, how are you going to enforce your guarantees? Ministers know better than I do how far such a plan is practicable, but I confess, speaking merely as an outsider, I should have thought it very doubtful if any plan of that kind would work. I do not want to quarrel with my hon. Frind. As a Member of this House, he is entitled to criticise what has been done by the Government and to say that it is for the Government to have a constructive and positive policy, and not for him to suggest one. I have always maintained that that is a proper position for Members of this House to take up. They may say they are not bound to put forward any plan, and they are equally entitled to say that the Government plan is a bad one. As far as that is concerned, I shall have something to say on that later. I think the main function of the House of Commons, on an occasion of this kind, is to examine how the events which are under consideration came to pass. That is the great function of Parliament, the grand inquest of the nation. It is its business to examine and consider what is amiss. Primarily it is not its business to suggest to the Executive what they should do.
I want very briefly to call the attention of the Committee to certain events which seem to me to call for very considerable explanation. I am not going to attempt to weigh the relative responsibilities of the three parties. I do not think it is fair to suggest that the workmen are solely to blame. I do not know whether my hon. Friend did suggest that; I do not think he did. Nor is it fair to suggest that they are solely responsible for the reduction of output, which he did appear to urge. They may be partly responsible for it, but it is not fair to say that they are solely responsible. There were many things which the miners did which, I confess, seemed to me to be very unwise, and there were some things which the owners did which it was difficult to understand. But, after all, in this House our main assertion is that the Government is responsible to this House, which has to decide whether or not it deserves condemnation. We cannot examine the causes of this unhappy dispute without looking at its previous history. Undoubtedly, you must go back to the War period in order to understand what has happened. During the War period the position was very difficult. In that period there were three Governments, and all were agreed it was absolutely essential that strikes in the coal-mining industry—that stoppages perhaps I should say—should be avoided at all hazards. The result was that over and over again, rightly or wrongly, demands made were conceded in the face of threats of strikes, demands which, perhaps, would not have been conceded if merely the justice of the case had been considered. That occurred over and over again, and the result was this undoubtedly psychological effect, that all those engaged in the industry came to believe that a demand had only to be made and to be accompanied with the threat of a strike in order to ensure its being granted. That was the first position you had to meet.
Then came the Sankey Commission and the action that was taken thereon. I am not going into that. I never charged the Government with being bound to accept everything that that Commission recommended, but undoubtedly they did convey an impression, rightly or wrongly, to a large proportion of the miners, who have asserted ever since that they expected the conclusions of the Sankey Commission would be carried out. Certainly one conclusion, the proposal to buy up the royalties, was generally expected to be carried out; indeed, I believe the Government even announced their intention of acting upon it. But, in fact, it was not carried out, and for months after the Sankey Commission reported there was a period during which the Government declined to make any statement as to their policy. I quite admit it was very difficult for the Government to come to a conclusion, but still that silence was very unfortunate. It seemed to suggest that the Government were waiting to see on which side public opinion would ultimately declare itself, and it was not until the very last day of the Session of 1919, when discussion was practically impossible, that the Government came down and announced that they were not prepared to carry out nationalisation. Next came the first Mines Bill—a very unfortunate affair. It was only pressed up to the Second Reading, and it was then found that everybody connected with the coal industry alike disliked it, so it was withdrawn. That was a very unfortunate incident. Next came the second Mines Bill. I am passing over lesser incidents. This second Mines Bill was introduced and passed into law in 1920. The Government were warned that it would not be an effective Act, and I understand from hon. Members behind me—they will correct me if I am wrong— that it did not come into operation. That also seems to have been an unfortunate incident, likely to keep up a state of agitation and unrest in the industry.
Then came the first stoppage—I forget whether it was a strike or not —during the autumn of last year. That was ultimately settled. I am not going into details of these things. If I am wrong in my broad general outline, I shall, no doubt be corrected. In my opinion the broad general result of that settlement of wages which was arrived at, was quite honestly represented to the miners as likely to produce for them pecuniary results at least as good as those for which they were contending. That was the representation made to them, quite honestly no doubt, and on the fact of it they went back to work in the autumn of 1920. As a matter of fact, two months later a sudden break took place in the foreign markets and the export coal trade of this country absolutely collapsed, with the result that within two months of that settlement, instead of the anticipated increased wage to the miner, it became perfectly evident that economically nothing like the wages they were then earning could continue to be paid. That was a situation which called for the utmost care and thought. You had, by these events, created a condition of considerable tenderness in the industry and then there was suddenly presented to those engaged in it the propect of a very large reduction of wages instead of the increase which they had been led to believe was likely to accrue.
That was the position when the Decontrol Bill was first proposed. We were told by the Government we might safely vote for that Bill and that it would not produce any of the disasters against which we were warned. It was said that the opposition was merely the natural expression of irritation and disappointment which the people mainly concerned indulged in. As a matter of fact, it was said, once it was passed, everybody would settle down and the agreement on the wages question which was under discussion and the settlement of which had been almost arrived at, would be come to. We were told, too, that the warnings issued, not only by the men, but by the owners, might be safely disregarded. Some of us—I was one of them— accepted that view of the situation, and I rather think I voted for the Bill. In that situation there was one incident to which I think it right to call attention. Control was to come to an end on the 31st March. On the 23rd March the Prime Minister met some of his supporters, I believe, within the precincts of the House, and delivered a speech, very largely on the coal, or, at any rate, on the labour situation. It was a speech of violent denunciation of the whole of the Labour party and all that it represented. It reminded some of those who read it of the earlier manner of the Prime Minister.. Labour was identified as a whole with Karl Marxizm and Socialism.
:No, the Labour party; but I do not call that Labour.
:He emphasised his intention by expressly saying that there was no use in trusting to the moderate men; they would not be able to do anything to stop it.
:The Labour party.
:The Labour party, if you like. But by whom are they going to be dictated to? Not by their colleagues of the Labour party, but by the Labour electors behind them.
:The Noble Lord makes a statement about a speech which I made. Apparently he does not accept it, and I do not expect him to do so, but perhaps he will kindly quote what I said. I never made any statement about the Labour electorate. The statement that I made was about the Labour party, and I decline, in spite of what the Noble Lord has said, to identify them with the workers.
:My right hon. Friend is entitled to put forward his interpretation, and I am entitled to put forward mine.
:I am entitled to demand a quotation.
:I decline to give way.
:You have no right to put your interpretation on it.
:If my right hon. Friend assures me that he did not attack the whole of the working classes, I accept that.
:Certainly I do.
:What he did say was this, and I think he will not deny my description of it; I shall be surprised if he does. He said, expressly mentioning the moderate Labour leaders by name, that it was useless to trust to their moderation, because the people behind them would drive them into extreme courses. I think that is a correct interpretation.
:Mr. Frank Hodges said exactly the same thing.
:That was the lecture which was delivered on the eve of decontrol, and I venture to say that a more unwise speech was never delivered by a responsible statesman. So far from being likely to produce a settlement, it was likely to prevent a settlement, and likely to precipitate the crisis which ultimately occurred. I would remind the Committee that this came just before the crisis, just before the final break, and the result was —I hear my right hon. Friend say, "This means that I cannot criticise political opponents." It does not mean anything of the kind, as my right hon. Friend knows. This was criticism of a violent kind, of a provocative kind, which produced an atmosphere of great provocation, and which I am satisfied was one of the causes which made it difficult to produce a settlement. Consider the position of the Government. They not only had the ordinary responsibilities of Government in the face of such a crisis coming upon them, but they had this additional difficulty, that they were parties to the whole dispute. They had to supply, under the control system then in force, a certain part of the funds necessary for the payment of wages. They were parties to the whole transaction, and it was absolutely essential that they should stand in the position of the greatest impartiality, and one which would inspire confidence on all sides of the dispute, so that when difficulties arose, they could be appealed to as impartial dispensers of justice, and could be the advisers of both sides as to what was really desirable to be done in the circumstances.
I pass from that—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—I did not expect to receive that applause from hon. Members opposite. Then came the prolonged stoppage, and a very disastrous stoppage it has been. It has involved, as we have been told to-day, an expenditure estimated at some £250,000. It has involved the contribution of £10,000,000 from the public purse, and it has, indeed, been a disaster of the first magnitude. We have now reached a final settlement of that dispute. I am not disposed to look too narrowly at the terms of that settlement. The danger and difficulty produced by the continuance of this stoppage was so great that, as far as I am concerned, I should welcome, I will not say any settlement, but any reasonable settlement which would put an end to the stoppage, and I am not going to join in criticism, even of the expenditure of £10,000,000 at that time, and granted that you have been brought to that condition—partly, as I think, by the many faults of the Government in dealing with the situation. Moreover, there are some parts of the settlement which, personality, I welcome warmly. I welcome warmly the arrangement by which wages are to be dependent on profits. I agree with the Prime Minister in thinking that that was a. very great advantage. It was, indeed, part of the original proposal which had been discussed and nearly agreed upon before the 31st March. I also welcome the establishment of District Boards and National Boards, the object of which—I do not know whether my right hon. Friend will allow me to proceed with my speech without interruption?
:I have a great respect for the Noble Lord, and I am too old a Member of the House of Commons to show any discourtesy: but when I have been attacked about a speech, I am entitled to compare notes with the Member of the Ministry who is going to reply, and to show to the Committee what a travesty of that speech the Noble Lord gave.
:I do not wish to interfere with any conversation that my right hon. Friend thinks necessary, but I was anxious to make a few observations on the settlement itself. I welcome that part of it which makes wages dependent on profits, and I also welcome that part which establishes district boards and national boards. I should have liked it to go further. I do not know whether this view will be shared by those who are more closely acquainted with the circumstances of this industry than I am, but I should be afraid that the district board would be rather, as it were, too far away from the individuals actually concerned in the industry, and I think it would have been a great improvement if the settlement had been completed by the more general creation of pit committees or something of that kind. I also regret that there is no provision in this settlement for giving to the worker some share in the responsibility for the working of the mines. I think that that is unfortunate. I know that there are many people who regard that as a dangerous and difficult proposition, but I beg them to consider it carefully and impartially. My hon. Friend who preceded me said, very truly, that the only solution of this question was a decrease in the price of coal, and that that could only be secured by getting a larger output without increasing the cost of obtaining it. He said, and I am not in a position to contradict him, that there was a great want of common action between the employers and the miners of this country, and that the miners, as he put it—they would put it rather differently —were not doing their best; and I heard constant interruptions from the benches behind me, saying, "Not at all. It is the owners who are not trying to do their best by their property." There is in any case, whichever way you look at it, this dislocation between the two, and the atmosphere of suspicion and mistrust.
We are told to admire the position in Germany. We are told that in Germany industries are proceeding far more smoothly and with far better results. I do not dispute that, because they are impelled by a great common motive. They reflect on the misfortunes in which their country finds itself, and the great patriotic motives which operated so strongly here in this Country during the War are still in operation there. I cannot help feeling that the great task before us is to reproduce, in some way or another, that harmony of effort between the two sides of this industry. In this case the employer may be said to have won the victory. I do not say it is a complete victory, but I think my hon. Friend will agree, when he looks at the losses of the two sides, that on the whole the employers had the greater share. It seems to me that this is the great opportunity of the employers. Here is their great chance. I am sure that there are many in the House of Commons who are only too anxious to avail themselves of it. Let them treat the matter generously; let them make great advances; let them try and put this industry at any rate on a better footing than before. I do not believe that it can be done by legislation. I believe that it can only be done by the individuals engaged in the industry. The employers think that the miners have been unreasonable. The miners think that the employers—
:They are both sitting down together.
:I venture to make a great appeal to them to see whether something cannot now be done to close this gap finally.
:I did not intend to take part in this Debate, but was proposing to leave it to my right hon. Friend (Sir R. Horne) with whom I have been associated in dealing with this dispute. I am glad that I happened to be here when the Noble Lord made his speech, because it gives me the opportunity, which I am glad to have, of contradicting a statement made before, which the Noble Lord has repeated, declining to give his authority for it, or even to withdraw, when I challenged him. The statement made by the Noble Lord is within the recollection of the Committee, that at a very critical moment, on the eve of a dispute, I made an attack on the workmen of this country. It is perfectly true that I criticised the Labour party, or as I called it the "Socialist party," on that occasion. Surely I am within my rights in criticising any party—
:But not misrepresenting them.
:Everyone charges everyone else with misrepresentation if a statement is made with which the person does not happen to be in agreement. But I am perfectly entitled, like any other Member of the House, to criticise a party which is in opposition to the one with which I happen to be associated. Monopoly of criticism does not belong to the Noble Lord. He may not agree with my criticism, or may agree with it, but it was one which I was perfectly entitled to make. It is a criticism of the fundamental position of the Socialist or Labour party in this country. I pointed out that the country must not be misled by the fact that those who were in the front were essentially moderate men, but that they were dominated by men behind them who were not moderate, and that in the end it is the counsels of those men which prevail. I did not imagine at the moment that in a very short time my prediction would be so completely verified.
I will quote to the House the very passage travestied by the Noble Lord, which he absolutely declined to quote, and I ask all hon. Members—I do not except hon. Members opposite—whether what the Noble Lord said about it is a fair summary of the words I used. I also ask them to bear in mind, when I am reading this passage, what has been said by Mr. Frank Hodges this week: That is the corporal type—they accepted the doctrine that leadership was unnecessary—
:We have had the opinions of several hon. Members of the miners' agreement. I can give mine in a sentence. I do not think it has one single redeeming quality. I think it is bad all through. That I believe to be the opinion of every miner in the country and of every miners' leader. But having said that, I want to say this on top of it. It is an agreement which has been accepted, and if we are given a change we will operate it. Having made the agreement we will carry it out if we are allowed.
:The other side ought, too.
:We must be given an opportunity if this agreement is allowed to be worked and the best results obtained from it for the miners, the owners and the community, and I have risen to ask the Government whether they are going to use their influence now for once in a way to see that this agreement is operative and that a chance is given to put this industry on a proper footing. I was at a meeting of the South Wales Executive at Cardiff yesterday, and I am absolutely appalled at the prospect with which we are faced in the Welsh coalfields on account of the attitude that is now being adopted by the owners.
:And everywhere else.
:I am speaking of what I know. I dare say hon. Members can supplement to a considerable extent the information I am going to put before the House. We had a debate amongst ourselves yesterday, as a body of leaders, and we agreed that the best interest of the miners, to say nothing of everybody else, is now to be served by putting forth the best effort of which they are capable, of co-operating in the most whole-hearted manner with the coalowners, putting the most into the industry that we can and getting the most out of it that is possible. But what do we find? We have the coal-owners in South Wales in a considerable number of cases imposing terms, over and above what is contained in the settlement, which call upon tens of thousands of miners to surrender, not only the reduction in wages called for in the agreement, but customs, conditions and rates which have grown up in those collieries over the last 40 years. If there is to be peace in the industry and if there is to be any operating of this agreement, we now want the Government to say that if the miners are prepared to put their best into it the mineowners must do the same. Is the Government a party to the agreement or is it not? In finding this £10,000,000 in order to put the industry on its feet are they going to assist? Some of the owners are insisting that before work is resumed men who have been serving the workmen in the capacity of minimum wage agents must be dispensed with and dismissed from the service of the workmen, and repairers who have been getting a 9s. a day standard wage must now agree-to accept a 7s. 1½d. standard. Where they have been filling coal with shovels; they must now fill it with boxes. Alt' Kinds of new conditions are being imposed which at any time in the history of the industry would have been sufficient to bring about a stoppage of the coal field.
:To improve the output.
6.0 P.M.
:I suggest that the right hon. Baronet should confine his remarks to the railways. He knows better how to get £60,000,000 out of the Government. We are up against a situation which must be faced, and faced faithfully. We are in that position, because two years ago the Government adopted a policy which was bound to lead to the position in which we have now been driven. When the Government suggested that there was likely to be a deficit of £46,000,000 on the industry in the year from July, 1919, to July, 1920, we pointed out that they had based that estimate on the assumption that they were only going to get 183 tons per man employed in the industry. We pointed out. that for 20 years past we had been getting under the Nine Hours Act 285 tons, under the Eight Hours Act 260 odd tons, and under the Seven Hours Act between 235 and 240 tons per person employed. The Government said, "We are going to base our estimate for the next year on what has been done in the first 20 weeks of 1919, when all the miners had rushed: into the mines from the Army when the mines were ill-equipped, when the men. who were drawn off were not filling coal, but repairing the roads and putting them, in order. The output was about 183 tons for that period, and the Government said, "That is going to be the output for the next year. We told the Government and the House that the industry of the country could not live on an output of that description, and we urged them toco-operate with us, and with the coal-owners, as we co-operated during the War, to get proper equipment into the mines, and to impress upon all parties, concerned the necessity of putting the industry on a basis of output similar to what it had been hitherto. The Government said, "We will do nothing of the kind. Let it go forth to the miners and the mineowners that we expect 183 tons per man per year, and we are putting the finances of the industry in a position to enable that to be done, and for there to be no deficit," and everyone has taken them at their word, and the output has gone down and the cost has gone up, and the industries of the country are being ruined, as we said they would be, and it is in the direct line of policy which was then pursued and has been continued from that day till now. What is the position in the Welsh coalfields? For the month of March the last month we worked, the selling price of every ton of coal, small or large, was 37s. 5d. At that price we had a deficit in the industry of 23s. 4d. a ton. We cannot build up a foreign trade in South Wales on a pit-bead coal price of 37s. 6d. a ton. We cannot build up an export trade, and we cannot keep our collieries working under those conditions. We cannot find employment for our men. That price will have to come down if we are to have markets We had a deficit of 23s. 4d. a ton even at that price. Now we have 2s. a day reduction of pay and we have the burden of unemployment taken off the industry. These two items account for 7s. a ton. There is still 16s. 3d. per ton deficit. If we bring down the price to 30s. per ton pithead price, for through coal, there is still another 7s. 5d. to be taken off, when you have taken everything into account and the 3s. to 4s. a ton profit that the owners are going to get; a profit they never before got in the history of the industry. It is a scandalous arrangement. We are prepared, however, to accept it and to work it if we can be given the chance. We decided as an executive yesterday that the spirit in which we were going to approach this matter was a real genuine desire and attempt to co-operate with the coalowners to put the industry upon a proper basis. We have asked the coalowners to meet us next week, and we are going to put it to them that this national agreement having been entered into it is their business to operate it and to accept the terms of the agreement and not seek to impose upon the men terms which are absolutely degrading, and which no independent body of men could bring themselves to accept.
Never mind what has taken place in the past. That has all gone. Possibly, we have all done wrong. At any rate, we have got into a hopeless mess, and some of us are prepared to do what we can to get out of it. I want to tell the Government and the Committee, and I do not want to do it in any offensive spirit, that it is no use talking about Abletts and the extremists; and that if the coalowners pursue the course which they are pursuing in the Welsh coalfields it is not the Ablett type, but the Hartshorn type and Richards type that will set up the toughest opposition. We can now have the co-operation of the Abletts, the Cooks, the Hartshorns and others, who are prepared to work hand in hand. That was the spirit of the discussion yesterday. If we cannot have co-operation on the part of the owners, what are you going to do? You can either have co-operative action or guerilla warfare If we are to have guerilla warfare, I look with very serious misgivings to the condition of things a few months hence. Without co-operation, and everybody putting his back into it, the position is going to be very much worse than it might be. Even with co-operation, the prospects are none too good. For the coalfield that is worked on the policy of guerilla warfare there is nothing but disaster for the miner and for the other trades in the country.
When the Chancellor of the Exchequer is replying on the Debate, I should like him to give us some, information how the £10,000,000 is to operate, and in what form it is to be administered. How will the amount given to each individual colliery company be ascertained? On what basis is it to be worked out? Does it mean, for instance, that if a colliery is under water, or falls are being cleared, and repairs are being undertaken, and practically no coal is being produced, and there is an enormous deficit on the whole of the month's working, that the whole of the deficit will be made good from the £10,000,000? If so, is that deficit to be made good direct from the Exchequer to the individual colliery company, or is it to go through the Coalowners' Association? If the latter, what about the non-associated coalowners? In the Welsh coalfields to-day, I do not think that any of the non-associated coalowners are reopening their collieries. They do not know what is their position, they do not know where they are. When they applied to the associated owners, the reply they got was: "We are not going to bother with you. We will attend to our own members." I do not know what can be said in answer to that; but the fact is that this uncertainty exists and is responsible for a very large volume of continued unemployment which need not be continued in the coalfields.
I should like to have a definite reply, if it is possible for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give it, as to what attitude the Government are prepared to adopt with a view to bringing pressure to bear on the owners to work this agreement, and not attempt to impose conditions other than those which have been agreed to in the national settlement. In the next place, how will the £10,000,000 be operated on the lines I have already suggested? If the Government can give us an assurance that they will immediately get into touch with the coal-owners and bring the necessary pressure to bear upon them to get this agreement operative, I am in a position to say that so far as the miners of South Wales are concerned, and their leaders, we are prepared, on the basis of that national agreement, to do all we can to make such a success of it as is possible within the limits of the terms. Otherwise a very different state of things will grow up. This is the time when the Mines Department, if there is any use at all for that Department, should use its influence and exercise its authority. The Government during the last three months have looked well after the interests of the employers, and I hope now that they will be in a position to say to the employers that the interests of the community is larger even than the coalowners' interests, and that unless the coalowners are prepared to the take as it stands he agreement which has been entered into between the mine-owners, the miners, and the Government, the Government will take such steps as are necessary to see that the men in the collieries are allowed to go back to work, either under private enterprise or some other system, and that they will not be compelled to continue idle.
:We were all delighted to hear the speech of the hon. Member who has just sat down. It augurs well for the success of the arrangement that has been come to when men in his position speak in the way he has done. I regret that the tone of the previous Debate has been such that one fears to enter upon a subject in which a good deal of controversy will arise. The hon. Member (Mr. Hartshorn) has referred to several important matters. It is undoubtedly a fact that with coal even at the price which will eventually prevail under the agreement, we cannot get a sufficiently low price in order that our industries may continue successfully. The hon. Member omitted to say that one of the most serious things is the competition from America in the coal trade. In the last three months prior to the stoppage of work the price of coal was such in this country that the Americans were able to send coal to the various ports of Europe and to make a very large profit and beat us in our own markets. Unless we can do something to bring down the price of coal, I fear that there will be a very serious state of things for this country in the future. Only last week I was in contact with some people in the iron and steel trade, and they assured me that unless coal comes down to 20s. or 25s. a ton it is very likely that many furnaces will not be relit. It is a very serious thing for the various classes of workmen who are employed in industries in the West of Scotland.
The hon. Member who moved the reduction of the Vote by £100 was very anxious to know about the £10,000,000, and how it was to be spent. He was afraid that part of the £10,000,000 would be used in connection with putting the pits in order. In that he is entirely wrong. The £10,000,000 will be used to give the men a certain rate per shift. The coalowners are to receive no part of the £10,000,000. The hon. Member for East Newcastle (Major Barnes) was rather hard on the Government in the charges he made. In the first place, he said that they were to blame for what had happened. The Government were not so much to blame as the fact that owing to the loss of our foreign coal market, the country was losing a great deal of money and it was impossible for the country to go on losing so much money. I do not wish to follow the arguments of the Noble Lord and to give any historical resume of what happened in connection with the coal trade, because sufficient has been said on that point, but I should like to reply to one or two things he said. In the first place, the Government considered it best that in the month of March that they should bring about decontrol. The worst thing that occurred in connection with the coal trade was the question of control, and if there can be any fault to be found in connection with the various phases of the coal trade it is due to the system adopted by the Coal Control in the early days. I was asked to be arbitrator in a case where the men were making certain claims for advance of wages. I had a very sensible man with me, a sensible man in connection with the Miners' Union, and he said to me: "You must give them something. If you do not give them something the whole of the 1,700 miners in connection with the company will strike." We were told distinctly that rather than have a strike the Government would give in to the men. Under such circumstances the men got the idea into their minds that they had only to ask and they would get. A good deal of that spirit, both in the officials and in the men, brought about this state of affairs. One hon. Member stated that in this settlement the question of the pool had been distinctly settled and that the men have got the pool. He had better settle that point with another hon. Member who stated that the pool had gone by the board. I am sure that if the pool question had been set aside at the start the strike would not have lasted more than one or two weeks.
For many years I had the honour of being an Inspector of Mines. We have at present an Inspectorate, including those at the head of the Department of Mines, of 88. These men are engaged in six divisions in the three kingdoms. Besides these, there are inspectors of horses, who are much needed to look after horses underground. When I was connected with the Department the district in which there was the greatest number of prosecutions in connection with horses was the district of Yorkshire. During the past year the amount paid to the inspectors, exclusive of bonus, was £33,640, and the bonus would represent about 50 per cent. extra. If you compare this with the old system you will find a great difference. In 1907 there were 40 inspectors all told in 12 different districts, and the cost was £21,065. Since then there has been a large addition of staff at headquarters over and above the various inspectors. There is now a very large class of men in the Mines Department who were not required up to 1908.
In 1907 a Committee was set up by the then Government, and it was decided by that Committee at the very last stage, when we had all been examined, to set up a Chief Inspector of Mines, to be located in London. This gentleman was appointed over the heads of all the others, and he made drastic changes, which, I think, were not for the better, and I am glad to say that he has been found out at last, and that he is, like many others, on the retired list. Two men have been appointed Mines Inspector during the last year, a Chief Labour Adviser and a Director of Health and Safety. What do these men do? During the crisis you would expect the Chief Labour Adviser to have been utilised to try to bring about a better state of affairs, seeing that he knew something about trade unions; but from what we hear he was very seldom asked to be present at these meetings, and he did not seem to be very successful in anything which he put forward. Another gentleman was appointed at a salary of £1,500, to become an Adviser upon Health and Safety. Why have these men been appointed to these posts? I can remember when the present Chancellor of the Exchequer brought in the last Mines Bill it was stated that there would be no other expense.
Notice taken that 40 Members were not present. Committee counted; and 40 Members being present—
:It is a curious thing that when Members of the Labour party asked for a count very few of themselves were present. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was then President of the Board of Trade, assured us that no other expenditure would be incurred. The right hon. Gentleman said that the question of expense was the one which chiefly disturbed people inside the House and outside, and that the only expense would be that of the Minister's salary, £2,000 a year. In view of that, why have we the expenditure on these two officers incurred immediately the Minister of Mines comes into office? An explanation is required on this point. We expect the Government to do its best to promote economy. What is done in the Mines Department by the Director of Safety and Health? When we remember that the whole question of the inspectorate is in connection with safety and health, one is at a loss to know why this additional expense is incurred. The primary duty of the Inspector of Mines is to go down and about the mines and see that everything is safe for the men engaged in the operation. I am of opinion that probably the only thing which these officers have got to do is to concoct various schemes whereby they can make it more difficult for the management and very often more difficult for the men themselves.
I may give one or two cases which recently occurred as an illustration. Some six or nine months ago a question was raised in Scotland in connection with the lining of shafts. Some people think that a properly lined shaft should be lined with wood from top to bottom; others think that it should be lined with brick; others think that the soft part should be lined to make it perfectly safe and the other part left unlined. Cases were raised, and in every case but one the Mines Department were unsuccessful. No sooner were they declared unsuccessful than they proceeded to set up a Committee of two members with the Chief Inspector of Mines as chairman, to inquire into the question of the safety of shafts. The Mining Association, together with the engineers of Scotland, pressed on the Government that they should have at least one representative on the Committee. It was also stated that it was wrong for the Minister of Mines to put in the chair a man who had given evidence in connection with the case to the effect that no shaft was safe unless it was lined from top to bottom, as he must be a prejudiced person.
Recently they began to look for some other means of raising difficulties. In Scotland, in connection with the training of young men to become mining engineers, they wanted to make it appear that, under the Mines Act, 1911, it was illegal for a young man to go down and make a survey unless he was certificated. The question was put, how was it possible to train a young man to become a mining engineer if he could not go down the mine? After some negotiation they saw the folly of this plan, and it was dropped. I give these illustrations to show that they seem to have so little to do in the Mines Department that they are constantly trying to make it difficult for the managers. Under the new scheme of six divisions, the divisional inspectors are so much taken up with clerical work that they have no time to do the work of going underground. I have asked questions, and have never been able to get a satisfactory answer, as to how many inspections per annum the divisional inspector makes, and they say they cannot tell.
:Does the hon. Member remember how many inspections he made?
:When I was an inspector I never made fewer than 20 inspections a month, as well as doing all the clerical work besides, which I think was very good.
:And the managers had a bad time of it.
:The divisional inspectors are so much taken up with clerical work that they are unable to do any work underground. The principal object of an inspector of mines is to do underground inspection, to see that everything is correct in the collieries. The new scheme has been found unworkable, and the sooner it is abolished the better for the mines and the cheaper it will be for the country. Divisional inspectors at present do very well to make about 30 inspections a. year, whereas they ought to make about 200. I take exception, also, to the method of ascertaining the death-rate in connection with mines. I put a question the other day, and I was not satisfied with the answer, but tables were issued that in 1913 that the rate was a little over 1 per 1,000, and in 1920 a little less than 1. There was a bigger output per life lost in 1913 than in 1920. This shows that the whole system is entirely wrong, because you cannot get the proper death-rate on the basis of the men employed. There was an interruption to-day of the hon. Member for Cardiff (Mr. Gould), by a gentleman who seemed to know something of what he was talking about when he asked about the men at the coal face. There are a great many men employed outside the coal face. I hope, now when a settlement has been come to, that a bigger proportion of men will be at the coal face and that we shall get a bigger output of coal.
I wish to refer to a class of inspectors who are called sub-inspectors. They were appointed many years ago when the Government thought that it was a proper thing to have working men inspectors. I am entirely against calling them sub-inspectors and not raising them to the rank of junior inspectors. The sub- inspectors do work as good as, if not better, than the junior or senior inspectors themselves. They have no clerical work to do. They confine themselves to underground operations. These inspectors deserve great credit for the noble work which they do, and I want to see them better paid, when we see a junior inspector getting double the pay of a sub-inspector and travelling first-class while the sub-inspector travels third-class. I trust we shall have a new method adopted. The extra pay that would be required for the younger men could be taken from the salaries of the other inspectors. We might have 24 districts with one man in charge of each district, and under him two junior inspectors. That inspector should be responsible to the Chief Inspector in London.
We see day by day that there is a great deal of bureaucratic government. I can remember the time when a mines inspector had some individuality. If he had brains, he could make suggestions with a view of improving things. There are hundreds of things in a colliery the adoption of which a man on the spot has to urge or to suggest. They can be adopted with safety, but under the present system a man cannot move in these matters in any of the divisions unless he gets instructions from London. I cannot see how a man sitting in London can be able to say clearly what is required in Lancashire, or Yorkshire, or Scotland. There are the men on the spot, and they have the best knowledge of what is required. I am sure that we should have more inspection underground and a better way of doing things if the bureaucratic control were abolished. We should be able to effect improvements much more cheaply, because instead of paying £1,000 a year with a bonus, we should get men at £700 or £800 a year to take charge of these mines. That will be the best arrangement for the community and for the men themselves. I think that our mines, safe as they are now—they are the safest in the world—will be made even more so. I ask the Secretary for Mines to consider seriously whether or not he will abolish the present system, and return to the old system whereby men were able to do very much more for the district in which they were placed than they can do now.
:One or two statements have been made by the hon. Member for Cardiff (Mr. Gould), and by the Prime Minister, to which I wish to refer. I do not know that we are doing the mining industry a service in discussing this question in the way we are discussing it. The men have just returned to work after a long struggle, and I can assure the Committee that they are in anything but an, amicable frame of mind. I am not sure that some of the statements made to-night will have a mollifying effect upon their minds. The question has been asked whether the settlement of the dispute will result in coal being produced at a price which will enable us to recapture the foreign market. By the foreign market I do not mean the export market for coal alone, but the whole of the foreign trade of the country. The miners, it seems, have to pull the chestnuts out of the fire for British industry. I doubt whether that idea is one which will find a ready response in the mind of the miner at the moment. Consequently I am not sure that we are well advised to discuss this matter at the moment. It is the function of the Chancellor of Exchequer to justify the policy of the Government. I will confine myself to one or two points raised by the hon. Member for Cardiff against the miners.
One of the points made against the agreement was that in its terms there was no guarantee as to output of coal. If the hon. Member knew as much about mining as he knows about shipping, he would know that the miners are paid by results, by the amount of coal they take, and that if they do not produce the coal there are no wages for them. That has always been the guarantee, and that is the guarantee for the future. We have not changed that system in the terms of the agreement. The hon. Member, therefore, need not be so much concerned about the guarantee. The hon. Member was anxious to know whether the 150,000, miners who, he said, are never to be employed again at the collieries, are to. be paid Unemployment Insurance Benefit. I hope the hon. Member is a false prophet when he says that there will be 150,000 miners who will not find employment in the mines again. He asks, Are they to be paid Unemployment Insurance Benefit? I would ask, Why not? These men have been paying their contributions under the Unemployment Insurance scheme. It is said that they are to be out of employment. Why should they not be paid the benefit? The miners were not anxious to be included in the insurance scheme. We made great efforts to have them left outside the scheme, but we were forced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the general policy of the Government to come inside. Our men have been paying their contributions, and those of them who will be out of employment, now that the dispute is ended, are entitled to receive the benefit. If some little technical difficulty arises concerning their claim, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government would be well advised to waive it aside.
Another hon. Member displayed anxiety about this same matter. He was anxious to know whether any part of the £10,000,000 would be given to the men who, he alleged, had destroyed the collieries. I would remind the Chancellor of the Exchequer that those of us who have experience of mining know well that wherever you have a long stoppage you are bound to have all the mines deteriorating in an alarming way. You have the weight of the superincumbent strata always bearing down, and falls of roofs and sides are continually taking place. There is also the fact that because of the ending of the control there are mines which the owners find it unprofitable to reopen. I hope that the men who, for these reasons, find themselves out of employment will receive the benefit and have the generous consideration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government. The hon. Member for Cardiff criticised the payment of the £10,000,000. That brings me to a point made by the Prime Minister. In reply to the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) the Prime Minister made out that the whole cause of the stoppage had been men of the Ablett type. Is that really the case?
The night on which we were discussing the Third Reading of the Bill to decontrol the mines an offer was made to the Government that if they were prepared to continue control for one month, which according to their own idea would have cost the country only £5,000,000, the dispute would be settled there and then. If that offer had been accepted there would not have been a stoppage for a single day. That offer was deliberately made, not by men of the Ablett type, but by responsible men on these benches. There would not have been a single day's work lost. If I am correct, and my colleagues will corroborate what I am saying, that deliberate offer was made to the Government. Yet the Prime Minister has since declared that the stoppage was due to the action of such men as Ablett. The refusal to continue control for one month, which would have only cost £5,000,000, has been a costly matter to this country, because instead of spending £5,000,000 the loss to the country has been £250,000,000. [HON. MEMBERS: "Anti-waste!"] If that represents Coalition economics, then the quicker the Coalition makes way for the Labour party, that party that has been so severely criticised, the better.
:Or for a Tory Government, even.
:The hon. Member for Cardiff (Mr. Gould) in the course of his speech, made comparisons as between the position of the German miners and that of the general body of miners in this country. He was asked a question about the conditions of the German miners—I think it was by the hon. Member for Lanark (Mr. D. Graham)—and immediately he was asked that question he switched off the subject and proceeded to tell us about the conditions of men who were repairing boats at Rotterdam. That showed he had very little knowledge indeed of the general conditions of the miners. As bad as is the condition of the British miner, the condition of the German miner at the present moment is not an enviable one. It is not one to which any section of our people is likely to descend in the future. The hon. Member for Cardiff went on to make, among other alarming and outrageous statements, the statement that the miners were responsible for the high price of export coal. My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Hartshorn) gave him very cogent reasons why the output of coal was low in 1920 as compared with 1913. He pointed out that very large numbers of men returning from service in the Army and Navy were unable because of wounds and disease to produce the same amount of coal in 1920 as was produced in 1913. Every one of us who is connected with the mining industry knows that the necessary supplies could not be obtained in 1920 to enable us to get the same results from mining as we got in 1913. A number of matters of that sort enter into the reasons why there was a difference in the output as between those two years, but there is a very important reason for the high price in addition to those I have dealt with, which evidently the hon. Member for Cardiff had not in his mind at the moment. One of the important reasons why such high prices were charged for coal was the high rates of freight. I wonder why the hon. Member for Cardiff did not deal with that, and I wonder how much of the high price found its way into his own pocket? He is better qualified to say than I am, and I am very sorry he is not present to answer the question. [An HON. MEMBER: "He has gone to search his pockets!"] I am sure he could have told us without searching his pockets. Another statement made was that the shortage of capital in this country was due to the policy of the Labour party. I do not know a single Member of the Labour party who made a million pounds in the course of the War.
:I did not hear that statement made by the hon. Member, otherwise I should have intervened.
:I think he made that statement, but as you did not hear it, Mr. Hope, I presume you do not wish to hear the reply. All I wish to say is, that I do not know a single member of the Labour party who made £1,000,000 during the War, but I know that certain shipowners are in that fortunate position. Statements of this kind do not come with the best grace from the mouths of some of these men. They would be better left unsaid, because after all they find their way through the newspapers to the very men who have just gone back to work under conditions that are not of an enviable character, and they will not lead to that spirit spoken of by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Hartshorn) and the spirit with which many of us are in complete accord. We know the conditions of the industry. We know how necessary it is for us to do all we can to build up and re-establish our position as quickly as we possibly can. Outrageous statements of the character to which I refer, made even by the Prime Minister and by the hon. Member for Cardiff, are not likely to help to the best results. All of us who have an interest in our country and our country's people, should do all we can to repair as speedily as possible the damage which has been done through an industry not being handled in the best way. The chief party in mishandling that industry has been His Majesty's Government, and they must bear the responsibility.
In the course of the dispute some regrettable incidents have occurred. Speaking generally, the behaviour of the million and a quarter men who are ordinarily engaged in this industry during these thirteen trying weeks has been of an admirable character. They have commanded the admiration of all sections of the people of this country. Many of the people of this country did not think it is possible for such a large number to be unemployed, and for so little trouble to arise. There has been trouble here and there, but you cannot have any strike or lock-out or stoppage of such magnitude without that. The men who have been arrested by the authorities in connection with the trouble in various parts of the country have, in our opinion, been dealt with rather severely. They have been sentenced to periods of imprisonment ranging from 14 days to one year. I suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he might consider among the other things that should be done at the earliest possible moment with a view to re-establishing good feeling, the question of an amnesty. Among officials and members of societies, who may have been guilty of breaking the law, some may have been punished who really did not deserve the punishment meted out to them, and the Government would be well advised to seriously consider the desirability of granting an amnesty. I may be met with the statement that the stoppage has been used by a certain section, namely, the Communists, for the purpose of advancing their own propaganda. I ask the Chancellor seriously to consider the question of an amnesty being applied even to the Communists. This party does not agree one little bit with the Communists. There is no section of the Members of this House who fight Communism more bitterly than the Members of this party. Personally, I have no regard for the Communist doctrine at all. I believe it to be founded on false principles.
At the same time, I do not think we can get rid of these difficulties by the application of force in the way it has been applied quite recently. If the Communist doctrine be at fault, as we and other sections of this House believe, it cannot stand. It will only last for a very short time indeed. If we are wrong, however, and the Communists are right, if it is something of an enduring character, I would remind the Chancellor of the Exchequer that, as has been shown in all stages of history, "the blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church." The Government had better consider very carefully that phase of the question. If the general amnesty I am suggesting be granted, I hope it will extend to that particular section of those who have suffered recently for industrial and political matters. There is only one other point I wish to make. Complaint has been made of the manner in which certain employers of labour and mine managers are seeking to put into operation the terms of the agreement, and this is not confined to South Wales. It is as broad as the coalfield. I have been discussing it with the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. S. Walsh) and with other representatives from various parts of the coalfield, and I find many instances of the same method being applied. That will not lead to great results. In addition to the other matters I have suggested to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I trust he will not forget that particular matter, and that the Government will do their best to see that this agreement—bad as some of us believe it to be from our point of view—will be operated fairly and fully, and each side asked to carry it out in its entirety. If that be done it will be better for our future relationships than if one side is prepared to carry it out while another is not prepared to give effect to its terms.
:Like many others in this House who wish to be associated with the Mover of the Amendment which we are at the present moment discussing, I would like to endorse the regret which he expressed that the opportunity had been indefinitely removed for expressing disapproval of the principle of such a large sum of money receiving the sanction of the House of Commons without debate and discussion.
7.0 P.M.
This House has many opportunities of criticising the Government on economy stunts, but this is too serious a matter to seize upon for that kind of action. Again, we are all ready to admit that, a settlement having been attained, this is not a moment to introduce an atmosphere which would imperil that settlement and prevent co-operation producing the most effective result. It is, also, not a moment for any recrimination. We are in this difficult position, that a settlement has been come to without our having had an opportunity of discussing it before it was made. There are many who will say that, a settlement having been come to, the best thing is to let it alone and not risk impairing the harmony which may result. There seems, however, to many of us an obligation to interpose a word of regret that the settlement should have been come to in these terms without full discussion, and there is imposed upon us a very serious comprehension of responsibility in passing a payment of so large a sum with apparently so little question. It involves a precedent. I have carefully read, and re-read, the pages of the OFFICIAL REPORT, which include the speech of the Prime Minister, in which it is stated that these were exceptional circumstances, and that the settlement involved no precedent. In order to argue the first question, one needs technical knowledge, but of the second question I can say, as one representing a constituency that in ordinary times contributes by its exports very largely to the Exchequer, another view may be taken.
Our textile exports are a large part of our exports, and these exports, at the present moment, are imperilled. Unemployment at Bradford is very distressing and, even apart from the coal strike, it is extremely disturbing. Those of us who are familiar with this trade, which depends upon its exports to the four quarters of the globe, see no very hopeful signs of. promise of improvement. All other trades are vitally interested in the coal settlement. The question whether this settlement will ensure output, and from that a lower cost of coal, is one in which all other industries are vitally interested. As representing a city depending almost entirely on the textile trade—a trade itself faced with such an extremely serious outlook—I feel obliged to intervene in this Debate. This is an occasion on which we can emphasise the extreme gravity of the outlook, due to the fact that our costs of production here are too high. Because they are too high, we cannot produce our goods at prices at which the world will purchase, and that comes home to us in unemployment in the trades affected. It is not wages only, but all other costs, and in other costs it is, of course, coal which affects transport and freight. All familiar with manufacturing conditions can visualise it clearly enough. The costs of production cause alarm that we are not going to regain our export trade. It is for that reason that there is an obligation to emphasise that, unless this settlement does give us bigger output and cheaper coal, we shall have made a large expenditure, and we shall not have got the relief which we and other industries must have if we are to reduce this unemployment. I speak as one who has returned from a tour right across Europe, including Germany, Poland and other countries. Having come into close contact with the conditions of these countries, I cannot help referring to them later.
A second point I want to raise is this principle of the subsidy to which we are being committed. It is one which can be seized upon by other trades. They may say: "If we are involved in a dispute why should we not make a demand upon the Government for a parallel subsidy from the Exchequer?" If the coal industry, on capitalisation, is entitled to £10,000,000 then the railways in a strike would be entitled to £60,000,000. We are not so rich that we can afford to give away money in such subsidies. The House has agreed to give agriculture £20,000,000— quite rightly in my opinion, although I was against the Bill at the time it was passed. But if these subsidies are to be given to other trades why should not the textile trade say that we also were controlled, and if we have a big strike why should we not have a subsidy from the Exchequer? We have had our difficulties because of control, and I make no apology for my share in imposing that control. We in the wool-textile trade in Yorkshire are hardly hit, but we do not have strikes. We settle our difficulties, and they are acute difficulties. We have recently, within the last few weeks, come to a settlement fixing wages for 12 months. We have done this by hard-headed common sense on both sides. The settlement we have made is on a percentage of reduction which is substantially less than the reduction made in similar trades in the United States.
:This hon. Gentleman says they did it without any stoppage. I thought there was a three weeks' stoppage.
:I am discussing the wool-textile trade which contributes very largely to the export trade. We made this settlement by common sense, without making any demand on the Exchequer, and it is along these lines. I am disagreeing with this settlement. I want to pay a tribute to our trade union leaders in Yorkshire. We have men there with whom I worked in the latter part of decontrol, in close harmony, and they are men who certainly give an example of readiness to realise conditions and have a familiarity with the trade which encourages them to face these disadvantages.
:On a point of Order. Is it open to us later to discuss the settlements in the engineering trade and other trades?
:No, certainly not. I understood the hon. Member was using a certain-illustration, a certain trade with which he-is connected, to show certain things that might have been done with regard to the coal industry. I think he is in order, but he must not deal at length with any other strike.
:May we use what has been done to show what has taken place in other trades?
:Only as an illustration.
:I apologise for having unnecessarily emphasised my point. I will leave it after reiterating that many of us disagree with the statement which has been made for the reason that it involves a subsidy of £10,000,000 without our having the assurance that the advantages accruing from this are commensurate with the expenditure in which the country is involved. I spoke about Germany. I want just to emphasise the point that the trade of this country is threatened with great disturbance through the cheaper costs in Germany particularly in regard to coal. Coal is cheaper and this has a very sound bearing upon this statement. The Prime Minister emphasised that the coal trade was in exceptional circumstances, and therefore justified this subsidy being given. The coal trade was in this exceptional circumstance, that they had a market for their produce, whereas other trades, which were hardly enough hit by the depression and still further hit by the coal strike, had not a market for their products. On those grounds more emphatically do we disagree that the coal trade has a justification for claiming a subsidy over and above other trades which are faced with equally great unemployment and even greater difficulties in getting rid of their products at the present moment.
There remain two points to which I wish to refer. Not with any intention of raising any recriminations, but as one who was commanding a Territorial battalion on the mobilisation of the Defence Force and who saw the difficulties arising from it, I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer may give the House an assurance that some representations will be made to the miners' trade union leaders that no victimisation shall take place in the case of those men who were colliers and members of the Territorial Force and who joined the Defence Force. There have been difficulties under that head, and I think the House will agree that where men who were serving their country loyally in the Territorial Force before the mobilisation of the Defence Force then thought that, as they were unemployed, it was their duty to assist the Government in their appeal for men to join the Defence Force, they should not be victimised in any way. The second point is that I hope we may have in greater detail the assurance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the country will not be involved in any further expenditure in the payment of unemployment pay to men who may become unemployed as the result of the difficulty of re-offering them employment through damage to the mines arising from the stoppage.
:I have no desire to appear in the part of a Mark Tapley, but I entertain the notion that the mining difficulties and the other industrial difficulties were quite inevitable. In getting back to earth from the heights which we occupied for quite a number of years we were bound to get back by a succession of jerks. Those jerks might be modified, and in some cases altogether avoided, by more or less better judgment on the part of those responsible for influencing Labour. I want to make reference to one case in which the mineowners and the miners kept the Government entirely outside. I have a notion that although the strike has cost a great deal, it is not entirely a debit. The miner has realised this, at least, from the stoppage, that it is futile to depend upon an Act of Parliament to assist him in his wages. The miner realises that political interference in his industry, so far as wages are concerned, simply tends to the destruction of the wages. In my county, the shale miner has given a very excellent illustration of what can be done by other methods. In Linlithgowshire, the centre of the Scottish oil industry, the miners and the shale workers, realising some three months ago that on account of the backward movement in trade the shale industry itself was threatened, voluntarily arranged to knock 6s. per day off their wages, and that in spite of the fact that the shale miners' wage and the coal miners' wage, by agreement some years ago, is fixed on the same rates. The result of that voluntary arrangement has been the preservation, to a large extent, of the Scottish oil industry. That heroic effort on the part of the miners did not entirely save unemployment, and the shale miners have a particular reason to grudge the coal storm, because whatever unemployment was occasioned in the shale industry by bad trade was largely increased by the effects of the coal stoppage. I mention that to the leaders of the coal miners here in order to indicate what can be done by agreement, and while it may be suggested that I have personal reasons for talking in a flattering way about the shale miners, I will venture to say that the action of the oil industry is an extraordinary tribute to the wisdom of the miners. I want to say quite frankly that, in my opinion at least, all the difficulty in the mining industry has Been occasioned by the suggestion that an Act of Parliament can fix the workers' wage. If that suggestion be denounced, if from one end of the industry to the other it can be made perfectly plain that no Act of Parliament can help wages, then we shall certainly avoid a great deal of difficulty in industry in the future.
As I have understood this Debate, the critics of the Government have been of two kinds. The one lot of critics have blamed the Government for having created the conditions which finally eventuated in a strike and for having then made an unsatisfactory settlement, and the other critics have dealt more with the question of what conditions might be in- troduced into the mining industry to secure a permanent peace. With regard to the first section, I ventured a year ago to oppose the renewal of coal control, believing as I did that coal control was bad for industry, bad for the mineowners, and bad for the miners. At that particular time, when control was renewed, there was money in the pool, and not only so, but there was still an opportunity for the mining industry being conducted and gradually brought back with the backward movement of trade without any violent interruption. When the control was continued, those who opposed the continuation met with opposition from those who speak for the miners, and I know why. The control which was imposed in 1916 was imposed with the approval and sanction of the Labour leaders. Therefore, to have denied its renewal in 1919–20 would have seemed to be inconsistent, but if the control is to be held responsible for the difficulties in the mining industry which finally eventuated in this stoppage—and this is now the position of the Labour party—do not blame the Government. The Government simply in that matter endorsed the views of the Labour party. With regard to the settlement itself, the only exception that any Member of this House could take to that settlement would be on the score of the £10,000,000. The settlement was a settlement between the mineowners and the miners, and the Government merely greased the ways, so to speak, with this subsidy. Therefore, our whole criticism against the Government, so far as the settlement is concerned, is confined strictly to the £10,000,000. We have nothing to do on this side of the House with how this settlement may work out. We hope it may work out well, but if it works out badly, the responsibility will not rest with the Government, but with the miners and the mineowners.
The Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) did not venture to object to the grant of £10,000 000, although he criticised the action of the Government, and he contented himself with saying that it was not the part of a critic of the Government to offer any kind of constructive policy. I hold the view that if I am criticising a policy, and I am unable to offer a counter proposal, if I am unable specifically to challenge the constructive policy which I pretend to criticise, then obviously my criticism is of no avail. With regard to the second portion of the criticisms levelled against the Government, as to the conditions which might be imported into the mining industry in order to secure a permanent peace, we have heard a great deal about profit-sharing and co-partnership, but, in my opinion, profit-sharing may be a delusion and a snare to the workers. If the Miners' Union to-morrow abandoned their political notions, and devoted themselves as the investing units of the miners, thereby they would start a system which would ensure that every man would be a capitalist and a worker, a consumer and a producer. You would then gradually grow a system whereby you would have peace. Under such a system you would gradually grow the conditions of peace, you would gradually release the energy of the workers free from the hindrance of suspicion, and create conditions under which the worker would have an assurance that he would be rewarded for his labour. You would add to the creation of wealth, and you would thus add to the wage fund of the country.
You may talk about profit-sharing and co-partnership and capital, but to say that capital is counterbalanced by labour is absolute nonsense. There is one way, and one way only, by which the miner can develop proper schemes of co-partnership, and that is by the Miners' Unions realising the necessity for investment and becoming the investing units for the workers. Let hon. Members opposite stop political effort, which is so much waste energy here, and so much destructive energy to the worker outside. On the other hand, if they put forward the constructive policy as unions which I have indicated and thereby lead to industrial questions being settled outside this House —for they are never properly settled inside this House—and never will be—it will be well. That will relieve the congestion here, and allow us time to bestow our attention on those great and truly political questions which alone ought to engage the attention of this House.
:I propose to direct my attention in the first place to the Amendment which challenges the Government on the issue of the grant of £10,000,000 towards assisting the mining industry. The allegation is that this grant is unjustified, and that it forms a very bad precedent for future dealing with labour disputes. What strikes one very forcibly in connection with this criticism is this fact: that for over two months the fact that the Government was prepared to aid a settlement of this dispute by a grant of £10,000,000 was before the country. Every Member of this House knew it. During all the time, and so long as the prospect of settlement was in jeopardy, we had no protests, none whatever were made; but once the settlement was in sight, once people were safe in their criticisms, they began to make them. That is the particular form of action of the men who are criticising our actions. Let us look for a moment at what the alternative would have been. What would have happened, supposing we had refused this assistance? I suppose what would have happened would have been that in some coalfields the men would have begun to dribble back—in those coalfields which are in a better position not those which are in a worse. It is quite certain that in districts like South Wales; which was one of the worst hit by the declining prices, you would not have had men going back for weeks and weeks, and I daresay that in some districts of Lancashire there would have been precisely the same experience. What would have been the result during that period? You would have had men gradually going back to the industry, taking a very much longer time to restart, and after they had got back they would have been there without any settlement. They would be at work upon such terms as might have been arranged locally, terms which, indeed, might have been ripped up at any particular moment by any body of men coming out on strike, because they thought the terms were insufficient.
What we have got here instead is an agreement which is arranged to last for at least 18 months. Was that not worth while paying something for? Is not the great trouble we have had in this country the fact that within six months we have had two strikes in the coalfields, and everyone knew the country could not afford these perpetual convulsions in the industrial world! There is no doubt at all that, measured in terms of money, the settlement which has been made is worth a great deal more than what the Government pay. But it is perfectly true, that although you may advance the argument that you are going to save money, that should not influence you if there is a question of principle at stake. I quite agree any other view would give rise to surrender to the blackmailer.
Was there any question of principle at stake at the time we gave this grant? No doubt originally it might have been suggested that the contemplation of such a grant was creating a very bad precedent. But we heard very little about that while the grant was still available, and until a settlement was in sight. What, however, has got to be remembered in regard to the mining industry is, that it was in an entirely exceptional position. There is no question at all that Government control dislocated the mining industry to an extent to which no other industry under Government control was affected. The Government took its products into unnatural channels. South Wales coal, instead of being exported, was being carried inland to markets where it could not be sold at a profit. Similarly, in all the other coalfields. Instead of the coal reaching its natural market, one of the effects of control was to make matters work out at a considerable loss in many districts, and the position, when it came to decontrol, was one very difficult to deal with. The industry got into an irregular condition. Neither men nor owners were putting forth their best efforts. We were confronted with a situation which, I venture to say, existed in no other industry in the country.
That is the first consideration. And the second is this: It is, I think, very ungenerous to hear manufacturers get up in this House and throw stones at this grant-in-aid to the coal industry at the present time. What really has been happening since the Armistice? Every manufacturer in this country has been getting his coal since the Armistice—and at a time of booming trade and large profits—at prices far below the world's market price. There is no question about that. The effect upon miners' wages was very great. If you take the position of the South Wales coal miner after the Armistice, his coal—so much of it as was allowed to be exported —was being sold at very high prices, enormously greater than anything any manufacturer was paying within the bounds of the British Isles. Under the old arrangement, the South Wales miner would have been paid upon a sliding scale of prices—
:And everywhere else too.
Conciliation Board arrangements; while industry under control was treated as a whole. The tendency which would have given the people in these exporting districts the benefit of the rise in the price of coal in due proportion was lost because these districts were the hardest hit by the failure of the export market. I venture to put it to Members of the Committee that this particular grant-in-aid, given under these very exceptional conditions, meets the case of those districts where otherwise the prices would have meant a reduction such as it is not easy to contemplate would have been received with equanimity.
I have been asked by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Tonbridge (Lieut.-Colonel Spender Clay), who, in a very moderate and cogent speech, expresses apprehension and doubt in regard to the policy which we have adopted, whether we were going to do anything in the shortage of coal which is likely to operate during the next few months to take some of the profits, as I understood him, for the purposes of the State. You cannot do anything of that kind unless you resume control. There is no way of touching it—suppose you desire to do so— unless you resume control, such as existed, and which would cause the greatest possible dislocation and detriment to the industry. Therefore we must leave these things to the ordinary play of the market, and, believe me, soon enough the conditions which influence the price of coal will bring it materially down in this country. I am not predicting that that is going to be reached at an early period—some figures were referred to this afternoon— but everything points to the fact that coal must become cheaper. The second question asked me was: Could I be sure that the money would be used economically? The reply to that is that its use is practically stereotyped. It will be used to make up wages, for, as the House no doubt understands, there will be a uniform reduction in the wages of the coalfields taking place at the present time, the wages coming down by 2s. a shift.
:A uniform maximum reduction of 2s.
:In some districts it is not so much, but there is no district in which the reduction is greater. Many districts cannot carry on on the reduction. Accordingly, what is done is to use the money to make up the difference between what the district can afford to pay and the level to which the 2s. reduction brings the wages. There is no possibility of it being used uneconomically in any sense which my hon. and gallant Friend would mean.
:What I asked was, whether the money would be used on uneconomic pits?
:It is perfectly certain that nobody would have any inducement to carry on an uneconomical pit, as the terms which the coalowners have made with the coal-miners practically assure that every uneconomic pit will go out of existence very rapidly. If my hon. and gallant Friend had heard the Debate this afternoon, he would have heard a great burden of apprehension by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Hartshorn) as to the amount of unemployment caused by pits going out of existence. I do not think my hon. and gallant Friend need be under any apprehension or fear on that score.
:On a point of Order. I do not think that was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore. What he referred to was unemployment in the pits that were to be totally closed.
:If the right hon. Gentleman cared to give way to the hon. Member, he could do so, but that is not a point of Order.
:There have been other speeches besides that of the hon. Member for Ogmore, in which the matter was mentioned. The hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Adamson) dealt with the question, and, undoubtedly, something was said by others.
There was one other question on which I think my hon. and gallant Friend asked for enlightenment; that was as to this Grant-in-Aid of £10,000,000 forming a precedent for other industries or for a renewal in the coal industry. So far as the Government is concerned, we have announced our intentions upon the matter. It forms no precedent either for a renewal in this industry or a grant in any other. It has been given entirely in view of the exceptional circumstances which I have described, and I think that it would be undoubtedly a matter of very serious difficulty, to say nothing of the question of the desirability, to make this grant in any way a precedent for future operations in connection with other industries. That deals with the points, of the Amendment.
I would have liked, had we been able to do so, to adopt the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Ogmore, who said that it would have been preferable had we been able to deal with this question, not from the point of view of the causes which led to the stoppage, but rather from the point of view of how we were to confront the effect of the stoppage with which we are faced. We are not going to get very much good from going over the old controversy as to who is to blame, and although I have been personally attacked upon this matter, I would be perfectly content to put forward no defence so far as I am concerned if it was going to aid in bringing a settled peace in this industry which has suffered so much from disputes in recent times.
But the attack which has been made upon the Government by the hon. Member for East Newcastle (Major Barnes) and the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) makes it imperative that one should clear up the situation, and really let the House know what the difficulties have been in connection with the coal stoppage. Both the hon. Member for East Newcastle and the Noble Lord laid the blame for the stoppage upon the Government, because of the decontrol of the industry. That was the main point which they made. That argument has been so often used that I must reply to it on behalf of the Government. Each dealt with other matters which I shall refer to first before I come to the main point of their complaint. The hon. Member for East Newcastle said we had brought about the stoppage because of the price at which we sold coal for export. Quite frankly I fail to understand what he means when he says that. It is quite plain that too high a price was not charged for export coal, because we were left with a huge deficit. We had a pool arising out of the prices charged for export coal which entirely disappeared in the course of the last six months of control, leaving us with a deficit, and that shows that we did not have too much money.
:That shows that we did not charge big enough prices for inland coal, and that coal was sold at a lower price to buy popularity for the Government.
:That is at least an advantage which the home consumer got, and it does not justify anybody complaining of the help being given to the coal trade at the present time. If you had let the price of coal go at the world's price during the period immediately after the Armistice, I venture to say that you would have had a condition of disturbance which none of us would have been willing to face. We had to take into account all the circumstances of that time. What would have been the situation with a free market in coal when all the industries were demanding more coal than we could produce. You would have had to pay ransom prices for the coal kept for the home industries. Whatever may be said for the policy of the Government, I do not think anyone will complain of the course we took at that time.
On the question of the price of export coal, we got just what the price of the market afforded, and it is ridiculous to say that we lost our markets in France because of the price. The fact is that the American coal which took the place of our coal was being sold at quite as high a price as our own, and it is absurd to say that we killed our markets with the price. The reason our export trade disappeared was because our foreign customers ceased to be able to buy, and France was obtaining a large amount of coal in respect of the German indemnity, and that naturally affected the market. To blame the Government for the stoppage on any grounds of that kind would be as convincing as if we were blamed for the occurrence of the present drought. These things occur in the natural course of circumstances, and neither Governments nor peoples can prevent them.
The Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin travelled over a considerable area of ground with regard to the situation prior to the 31st March. He blamed us because we had not expeditiously enough carried out some of the undertakings which we had given. He said that suspicion had been caused because we had put forward no proposals in 1919 until the end of the Session. Let me remind the House of the position in which we stood at that time. The Second Report of the Sankey Commission was issued on the 20th June when the peace terms were being discussed in Paris. The Prime Minister returned in July, and the question of the position of the coal industry was one of the largest questions he had to tackle, and upon which a great deal of reflection and deliberation was necessary. The Prime Minister put forward our proposals in the House towards the end of the Session. How were they received? They were rejected with contumely by the mining Members of the House. We proposed an arrangement of district trusts which the miners would not have and the Prime Minister was told by the hon. Member for Ogmore that unless he had some better proposals than that he could never obtain the consent of the miners. There can be no ground of complaint for not dealing with the matter expeditiously enough.
Another complaint was that the miners had been encouraged to believe that they would get a larger wage by the previous settlement. What was that settlement? It was an arrangement by which the miners had an increase of wages by an increase of output. The miner gave an increased output and he got the increased wage while the increased output lasted. Then, when the trade disappeared, necessarily the wages came down to their previous level. It had been provided that the settlement should last until the 31st March, and in the meantime the owners and miners were to confer with a view of arriving at a permanent settlement. It was never intended that that arrangement should last after the 31st March, and it was in accordance with its terms that a new arrangement had to be made. Unfortunately, no settlement had been arrived at, and we had to consider the position which confronted us. ( Interruption ) I am speaking of matters within my own knowledge. The arrangements which settled the strike of last autumn were made at 10, Downing Street, and provided for the arrangement I have described lasting until the 31st March and no longer. In the interval the owners and the men were to get together and come to some terms.
:The scheme was to be submitted to the Government.
:Yes, that is so. There was no justification for the Noble Lord's criticism to the effect that we were put under some sort of suspicion, because the terms of that arrangement were carried put to the letter. It is said that by decontrolling the industry on the 31st March, we brought about this stoppage. It is always easy to say what might have been the result if you had done something else, and people who make that kind of criticism are in the position that they are never subjected to the test of experience. You cannot argue with people like that. All you can do is to disbelieve them. Let us test the case. Happily, in the present circumstances we have complete proof that at whatever point of time you brought about decontrol you would have had a stoppage, whether it was in March, June, or August. [ Interruption. ]
:Order, order, we can only have one speech at the same time.
:Let me remind hon. Members that the majority of the miners of this country undoubtedly, for a long time, sought to have nationalisation introduced into the mining industry. I will raise no controversial topic, and I will only deal with the history of the matter. At a certain stage last year, through the mouths of the miners' leaders, we were told that there was no longer to be any attempt made to obtain nationalisation by industrial action, and that it was to be decided at the elections. The Committee will understand that down to the period when control ceased the prime element of nationalisation was involved, namely, a pooling of profits which brought about an equalised condition in the matter of wages. So long as control lasted the pool lasted, and to that extent you still had in existence a part of the scheme which the miners had fought for.
8.0 P.M.
I had meetings with the Miners' Federation in the early part of the year. I met them on the 13th January with a view to discussing bringing about decontrol. I find that I wrote a letter in the following month to the Secretary of the Miners' Federation saying that the Government was determined to decontrol at the earliest possible moment, because the grounds for control had disappeared, and there was no necessity for restricting the export of coal or fixing the home price of coal because prices had fallen below the home price. There was no market for export coal and therefore the reason for control had ceased. I told them that we should not keep control on any longer, because the reason for putting on the control had disappeared. I met the Miners' Federation and I met the Mining Association and I announced what our proposals were, and I discussed them. It was perfectly evident that decontrol was a matter which the miners were going to resist— let me be perfectly plain—and the question of the pool came up very promptly. I find that what has been said is entirely endorsed by the speech made by Mr. Hodges at Brighton. I am not sure whether many Members of the House have noticed that speech, but what was said was very significant. Referring to the time at which decontrol took place, he said:
:Quite true. You promised the Sankey Agreement and you ran away.
:If my hon. and gallant Friend agrees that that is quite true, there is absolutely no reason to say we brought about the stoppage by decontrol. We should have had a stoppage whenever decontrol took place. Let me carry the matter a little further. Mr. Hodges has made a very courageous revelation in the course of this week as to what went on inside the Miners' Federation. In an article which he has sent to the "Western Mail " he states that already in March he and some other of the leaders had come to the conclusion that the pool ought to be temporarily abandoned and that they should go for a settlement of the wages question. The House remembers that the miners would never discuss the wages question with us; they were always demanding the pool at that stage. Then he says:
"Every Yorkshire and Durham council delegate will remember the earnest appeals for a temporary abandonment of the pool by Messrs. Herbert Smith and James Robson, whilst every delegate at the London Conference on 18th March will remember my own speech, recorded verbatim in the notes of the proceedings of that day, urging temporary abandonment of the pool and asking for power and freedom for the executive committee to settle wages."
Then he makes this remarkable statement:
"Everything goes to show that we could have secured a better wage settlement then than we have got now."
There is the acknowledgment, the perfectly frank acknowledgment, by the Secretary of the Miners' Federation, that at that time you could not get. a majority of the Federation to discuss the question of wages at all; they were so set upon the national pool that they abandoned discussion of wages and insisted on this national pool. How can it be said that we brought about this stoppage, or that the Government was responsible for the stoppage? We were responsible for the stoppage because we would not concede the pool, but neither would the country. You were bound to have a stoppage until you had conceded the pool or until you had had the fight
:Or something else.
:Let me carry the matter a little further. On 15th April, after Mr. Hodges had paid a visit to the House of Commons, the Prime Minister invited the Miners' Federation to meet him to discuss what had taken place at the meeting upstairs. The House will remember how we waited for the reply, and how, to the disappointment of everybody, and almost to the despair of every Member of the House, the Government got a reply that the Federation would not come to the meeting. Why? Because they had not yet been conceded the National Wages Board and the National Pool, and they said that in those circumstances they felt no good purpose would be served in meeting the owners on the basis suggested. They were not prepared to discuss wages unless we settled the pool question. Upon the 28th of April the Government put forward the offer of £10,000,000 in order to assist the industry to get over its temporary difficulties. At an earlier stage the Prime Minister had stated in the House—I think on the 12th of April—that the Government were willing to lend temporary assistance, but on the 28th of April a definite offer of £10,000,000 was put forward. What happened upon that? There was a meeting of the delegate conference and a Resolution was passed in these terms:
"That this Conference rejects the Government's proposals as they do not concede the fundamental principles of a National Wages Board and a National Pool, for which we stand."
How can it be said in face of that Resolution, as was said by the hon. Member for East Newcastle this afternoon, that if we had given the £10,000,000 earlier we should have had a settlement of the whole question. The fact is, the Miners' Federation were standing relentlessly upon this position of a demand for the pool, and Mr. Hodges has revealed how he and some of the other leaders were strenuously endeavouring to change the minds of the majority, but were never able to do so.
:Did we not ask for that assistance before the stoppage took place?
:Yes. It is right that you asked for assistance, but you also demanded at the same time the National Pool, and you said that unless you got the National Pool you would never consent to a settlement.
:With continuation of control!
:Yes, but the continuation of control only means that when it was proposed to cease control you would again continue the demand for the pool, and we should have had the stoppage.
:No, we should have had another agreement in the meantime.
:The hon. Member says we should have had an agreement. Does the record which I have given to the House show any hope of agreement? Believe me, we were conducting the negotiations under a feeling of very great responsibility, and were looking for any possible loophole by which we could settle peacefully, but we were always met by this position, which was one of adamant, that 310 settlement could be arrived at until every concession was made. Now we know from the revelation by Mr. Hodges what was going on inside the Federation. He says with regard to that day on which the House met and learned that the Miners' Federation would not meet with the owners:
I ought to give an answer to some questions put to me by the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Hartshorn). He said there was difficulty in some of the coalfields because, it was alleged, the owners are not conforming to the terms of the settlement, and he asked what the Government would do in that matter. The Government is prepared to give all the aid in its power in seeing that the terms of the settlement are observed. I have no doubt that in most of the districts there still are those conciliation arrangements which ought to be used in the first instance in endeavouring to make a complete agreement as to the way in which the settlement is to be carried out; but if any difficulty arises which cannot be got over by these ordinary methods, undoubtedly the Government will use its whole influence in order to bring about arrangements which will make it certain that the terms of the settlement are observed, in full and to the letter.
:Even by taking political action in this House? What other authority have you?
:We have certain authority, if my hon. Friends opposite will allow us to use it. One of the complaints that has been made by the Noble Lord (Lord R. Cecil) this afternoon is that we have not put any terms in the agreement which ensured the miners having some influence in the directing of the mines. I would remind the House that there is in existence an Act which arranges for complete representation of the men upon the bodies which are concerned with the regulation of the mines, and under the provisions of that Act we have got power to enforce the decisions of the National Wages Board. Accordingly, if my hon. Friends opposite will agree—and I think some of them are coming to the conclusion already that the Act contains far more beneficial provisions than they have thought—if they will agree to work these provisions, power to enforce the decision of the National Wages Board is contained within the four corners of the Act, and undoubtedly will be used.
The hon. Member for Ogmore further asked what arrangement was made for the distribution of the £10,000,000. He put to me a question as to whether pits which were engaged for the moment in repairing, and are not giving out coal, would be entitled to their share. My answer is that they undoubtedly will. In pits which are at work, in which men are engaged in the ordinary operations performed by miners, either repairing roads or otherwise, their wages will be made up to the proper level through the aid of the Government subvention. Then the right hon. Member for East Fife asked a question as to the unemployment benefit. My impression is that the Minister of Labour, within whose province a matter like this comes, has already answered the question. I think the way in which the law stands at the present time under the Unemployment Insurance Act is that, in so far as a man is out of work through the fact of work not being available for him, he will get the benefit of unemployment insurance; but on the other hand, where he is out of work directly because work cannot be given because, for example, the pit is flooded through men being withdrawn in the strike, then I understand a different rule prevails. But I am not in a position to give a final decision. That is in the hands of the umpire under the Act.
The hon. Member for Cardiff (Mr. Gould) drew a very doleful picture of the trade prospects of this country, and in particular of the immediate future of the mining industry. I am not so pessimistic as he is. I listened very carefully to the wise speech which was made by the hon. Member for Ogmore on this very matter. The hon. Member said conditions are difficult, and they can only be met by the co-operation of the miners and the mineowners. He did not seem to despair of getting that co-operation. I am perfectly certain that good will is required. I am also confident that it will be forthcoming in the future of this industry. The owners and the men are now partners in the industry. The proceeds go in shares to each side, the ratio of the one to the other having already been agreed upon. I believe that the operation of this new principle will in time create a totally different feeling throughout the whole mining industry of the country. One thing is certain, upon the future of the mining industry the whole prosperity of this country depends. None of our other industries can flourish and prosper unless you have a flourishing and prosperous mining industry. Neither will the shipping industry of the country succeed unless we are able once more to provide large quantities of coal for export in order that ships may bring back goods from other parts of the world in ex- change. Accordingly, it depends on the whole country working together, if we are to emerge from our present state of depression, and I believe that the country will so work. The coal stoppage has brought about many troubles, many anxieties, and many difficulties, but it has at least served one purpose. It has brought it home to the minds of everyone in this country that you cannot carry on trade unless you can produce your articles at a price which your customers can afford to pay. Everything in an industry must be regulated by the economic factors. Equally it has been proved that one trade cannot flourish while another is in a state of depression or jeopardy. Accordingly, I hope that the whole country will set its face towards making greater efforts than we have ever done in the past to attain that success which our forefathers so gallantly achieved. It depends on us, and on our own efforts and energies alone, to bring the country back to that success and that prosperity which it previously enjoyed, and I, for one, am hopeful that the determination of the country to-day is set in that direction.
:I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
HON. MEMBERS: No!
:In the few words I propose to address to the Committee I will deal entirely with the question of the £10,000,000 subsidy from the point of view of the ordinary citizen and taxpayer and not from the point of view of the miner, or the mineowner, or the royalty owner. I wish to voice the view of the taxpayer who has the unpleasant burden cast upon him. of finding this £10,000,000. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he will allow me to say so, dealt exhaustively and most ably with the history of the negotiations, and I think he proved to the satisfaction of every unbiased Member of the House of Commons, and of this Committee, that it was not in the least the fault of the Government that a settlement was not obtained months ago. He proved that they did their very utmost to bring about a reasonable agreement between masters and men, and I am sure that his speech, when it is read in the country, will carry great weight with the ordinary voter who is, after all, the deciding factor in these industrial disputes. But when he was dealing with the subsidy of £10,000,000 I think the right hon. Gentleman must have felt in his heart of hearts that he was on very dangerous economic grounds. He put forward the best case he could, speaking for the Government. Had he not been in the Government himself he would not have approved of the action of the Government in this matter, but would rather have condemned it as forming a most dangerous precedent. His defence was broadly that this action would not form a precedent and that the Government, of which he formed a part, would never again consent to give a subsidy in order to maintain wages after decontrol. Therefore what they had done on this occasion did not so very much matter. I am bound to say the action of the Government in the past two or three years does not inspire me with confidence that they will always adhere to that line of policy and that they will not, if sufficient pressure is brought to bear on them, give way in the end. The unfortunate precedent of the Agriculture Act is recent in our memories. The incident of the Minister without Portfolio, who they said was indispensable but found under pressure to be dispensable, and many similar instances tend to make me a little doubtful whether, provided sufficient pressure is put on them, the Government will not give way in the future.
Even if they do not give way, what a precedent it will be for any future Government? Any future Government may perfectly justifiably come to a future House of Commons and say, "There was a Government which voted £10,000,000 to compose a difference in an industrial dispute. Why should we not ask this House of Commons to do the same?" From the point of view of precedent, this is one of the most dangerous things, from a financial point of view, that any Government has ever proposed as a burden to be placed on the taxpayers of this country. The right hon. Gentleman further said, " Well, after all, what is £10,000,000? Surely £10,000,000 is worth while to get a settlement." In any future dispute, cannot he come down and say that a great industry, such as agriculture or the cotton trade, is dislocated, that there have been months and months of strikes, and that hundreds of millions have been lost to the country; and might he not quite well say: " What is £5,000,000 or £10,000,000 in order to ease the trouble between masters and men? Let us vote that. Surely you would not grudge a small sum like that to put things straight and improve the industries of the country?" I say that that might easily happen, and it is a very dangerous precedent that has now been set. The right hon. Gentleman also said that Government control has dislocated the mining industry, and that, therefore, something should be done for it. That is quite true; it probably has. I know very little about the mining industry, but from what I have listened to in this Chamber it probably has. But is there no other industry that has been dislocated by. Government control? Agriculture has been controlled during the War, and is still controlled, to a large extent. Have not agricultural wages been interfered with? Have not boys of 19 or 20, under Government control, been paid the same wages as experienced men of 35 or 40? Have not farmers been compelled to plough up their best grazing land and grow inferior corn crops?
:They have been paid for in the guaranteed prices.
:That is not the point. I am only dealing with Government control, and not with the question whether they have been paid or not, although I think the miners themselves made a very good thing out of it. Here is another large industry—the oldest industry and the most important industry in this country—which has been controlled, and in which business has had to a large extent to be destroyed under Government control. When the control comes off, would it not be perfectly justifiable for those who employ agricultural labourers to come to the House of Commons and say, "Our industry is going to be decontrolled, we cannot pay these wages; give us a grant in order to break the fall"? If something of that sort happens, the Government will find themselves, and the House of Commons will find itself, in a difficult position when they have to refuse it, or in a still more difficult position if they have to grant it, having created this dangerous precedent. The right hon. Gentleman said that the offer of £10,000,000 was before the country and before the House of Commons for some months, and no protest was made. He must remember, however, that it is very difficult for private Members to make protests when the Government take the whole of the time. They cannot move the Adjournment of the House on the ground of its being a definite matter of urgent public importance; they would be ruled out by the Chair. What protest can they make? If the right hon. Gentleman had been in the Smoking Room or on the Terrace, where Members talk with one another, he would have heard a great many comments on this proposed grant of £10,000,000.
Even if it were right to make the offer, it does seem to me most amazing that, when the Government say the offer is open up to a certain date, and that after that it will be withdrawn, and it is withdrawn, they then give them £10,000,000 after all. The miners came and asked for an interview with the mineowners and the Government, knowing the subsidy to be withdrawn, and, naturally assuming, I suppose, that the Government were going to keep their word; and then, after all, the Government give them the £10,000,000, and we are asked to vote it in the House of Commons. Of course, we have got to vote it; the subsidy will be granted, and on the whole, possibly, it is unavoidable; but I do think it necessary that backbench Members should voice the views of the millions of overburdened taxpayers of this country, who see in this a most dangerous precedent and a very heavy burden on their limited resources.
:The latter part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech was devoted to a rather extended account of the negotiations and of the statements made by Mr. Frank Hodges. I do not propose to take up any time on that matter, but to ask the right hon. Gentleman's attention for a moment to what actually took place in the House of Commons. On the occasion of the Second Reading of the Bill we from these benches made repeated appeals to him. We pointed out that many of us occupy a dual position. We are miners' agents in our own areas, but we have never had the slightest opportunity of seeing the right hon. Gentleman in any of the negotiations. We pointed out, also, that we were Members of the House of Commons, and in that sense, inasmuch as legislation was going through the House, we were interested. But we also had a very grave responsibility as miners' agents, and we appealed to the right hon. Gentleman, and, indeed, to the Prime Minister, to call us all together—owners, miners' agents, and Members of the House-exactly as was done during the War. There were notable occasions when it was necessary, in the interests of the nation, to get every interest represented, so that a combined effort might be made for the successful prosecution of the War. I myself appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to take the same line of action in this very serious emergency as was taken during the War. Our appeal, however, fell on deaf ears. The one statement to which he bound himself was that the time had arrived when the industry should be decontrolled and must fend for itself.
The Bill went to Committee, and I wish the right hon. Gentleman had been there, because he himself has used exactly the same arguments that were used in Committee. We pointed out, exactly as he has pointed out, that the whole country has benefited to the extent of scores, and possibly hundreds, of millions. Had the miners been given the opportunity of a free range of wages and prices, our wages would have stood at a very much higher figure; but we every one of us agreed that that ought not to take place, that it would have been very unfair to saddle the people of this kingdom with a very high price for their coal, and we said it was quite right that the prices should be limited. We also agreed that it was quite right that control of the export prices should take place. We did urge that, in the interest of the whole community, decontrol should not take place so rapidly as was being pressed by the Government. We ought to protest against statesmen utilising the language of others outside as being arguments upon which they can found a case in this House. Notice what has taken place this afternoon. The name of Frank Hodges has been brought in on two occasions, on one occasion to prove that he was prevented by others from carrying out what he desired, that is in the case of Ablett and others—extremists—and the right hon. Gentleman has just brought his name in as showing that a particular thing was going to be carried out because Mr. Hodges said so. You cannot reconcile those two opposites. It is playing it rather low down to bring in some person outside the House, over whom the House has no special control, and indeed, no special connection, and who cannot reply, and to say that a statement of his must be taken as containing a complete truth and as a complete argument in reply to whatever is being advanced. In the first place the Prime Minister himself brings forward a statement by Mr. Hodges to show his powerlessness, and in the second place his name is invoked to show how great authority.
What actually took place? In the Committee we appealed again and again for a little time. We said distinctly that a settlement could be effected. We could prevent a stoppage of the mines. I myself put the point. We said it and repeated it; that if you gave us some time to enable us to get to our men and point out what was really the exact condition of things, we could prevent a stoppage. Every one knew that the industry had had the bottom knocked out of it. Control could not last indefinitely. Everyone knew that even at the extreme limit it had to come to an end on 21st August. But there was not a single person except the Parliamentary Secretary with whom we could communicate. We were sorry the right hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Horne) was away. His health had to be restored. The Prime Minister was away and the then Leader of the House was away. The only one upon whom we could impress our position was the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, as he knew that while the Bill was in Committee authoritative negotiations were held—the very last appeal the men could make—to give us a little more time whereby we could get to our people and avert what everyone must see at the very best must be a grave social and industrial disaster. Where does the reference to Frank Hodges come in? Behind that Speaker's Chair negotiations took place—the only way by which negotiations of this kind can take place—with men who were empowered to conduct negotiations, with men who were prepared to give a definite promise that if a very small amount of money and a very small amount of time were granted a settlement could be effected. But every entreaty we made was treated with contempt and at the very last moment, on the Third Reading of the Bill, there was not a fifth of the Members of the House to whom we could make an appeal. We ourselves used in Committee the very arguments the right hon. Gentleman has used with such extreme effect and with perfect fairness and accuracy. But those arguments were treated with contempt in the Committee stage and in this Chamber. Most of us who are in the House have had a very lengthy experience as leaders in our own areas and many of us can speak with authority not exceeded by any man with whom the right hon. Gentleman has held negotiations. But we were never listened to. We were told, "You are on the way to a settlement."
:I agree with what the hon. Member says about appeals being made to the Government to continue control for a further period, but I cannot admit that there is anybody who had any authority or ever attempted to give any undertaking that if control was carried on for a month a stoppage would be avoided. There was no one in a position to give that undertaking on behalf of the Federation, and it is not fair to say that that offer was made, because there was no one in a position to make the offer. We were certainly asked to continue control, but there was no definite pledge, and no one could have given a pledge, that that would have had the effect of preventing a stoppage.
:The right hon. Gentleman knows that there were men in the highest authority who were authorised to enter into negotiations with himself, because he was the only responsible person connected with the Department in London at the time, and in this House at the time. His Chief, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, was away and he was the only man. The Chief Whip of this party, along with others whom I need not name, were authorised to conduct negotiations. Of course, the right hon. Gentleman was right in the earlier part of his speech, when he said, "You cannot argue with a prophet, you can only disbelieve him." No person is qualified to say upon his own ipse dixit, " This thing will come to an end if so and so is done." What we can do is this. Upon the good faith of lifelong experience we can say, "If you will give us an opportunity of getting to our people and showing them the full facts of the situation, grave trouble will not develop," and that many of us were prepared to do, and were doing. But the right hon. Gentleman will be honest enough to say that time after time, when we were making the appeal, he said: "No, nothing of this kind will happen. As a matter of fact, you are just on the eve of settlement, and by 1st April there will be no trouble. There is no industry in which there is such good feeling as in the mining industry, and if this thing is just allowed to become law, before a very few days you will be falling on each other's necks." That was exactly the point of view taken by the right hon. Gentleman. When we told him of the awful reductions in wages, since described by the Prime Minister as indefensible, and described by almost every newspaper of repute as appalling in character, and when we told him that it was utterly impossible for men to accept reductions so sweeping and drastic, he said that no. trouble would arise. No matter what we said it was treated, I will not say with contempt, but with indifference, and as if it was not deserving of much respect. At that time we were coming to an agreement upon the matter of the ratio of profits and wages, and the right hon. Gentleman himself has spoken of that as marking a very fine principle, which he hopes will be developed more rapidly and lead to permanent peace in the industry. It is an integral part of the principle of settlement for the time being.
I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, with such knowledge of profit-sharing as he possesses, whether he knows in the history of this nation or of any other where the profits to be paid to the capitalist are based upon the aggregate wages he pays in his firm. It is not, as many people seem to think, 17 per cent. upon the capital invested, but it is 17 per cent. upon the aggregate wages paid, when wages are at the agreed minimum. If the right hon. Gentleman has gone into the figures, he will see that that will assuredly give greater aggregate profits to the employers when the men's wages are at the lowest than have ever been known in the industry. The 17 per cent. standard profit calculated upon the wages of the men when the wage rate is at the minimum gives higher profits to the employers than have ever been known. I wonder if that is the kind of profit-sharing that could honestly be described, as the Prime Minister described it a few days ago, as being, on a large scale, the most scientific scheme of profit-sharing that has ever been applied to any industry.
It is a very curious thing that only about six weeks before the Prime Minister said that he did not understand it at all. Speaking at a meeting where the three parties were represented he said to the employers:" I do not understand your profit-sharing system. I have been trying, to understand it, but I cannot understand it." The president of the Mining Association began to explain it, but I do not think he succeeded very well. Four weeks later the Prime Minister repeated the statement. He said:" I do not quite understand what you mean by your profit-sharing, and by your proposal as to the 17 per cent. standard profit." Nevertheless, a few days ago, he came to the House and, reading from manuscript, he described that which he had hitherto failed to understand as being the largest and most scientific scheme of profit-sharing that had ever been applied to any industry. It is the one thing that will do more than anything else to dam the success of the settlement. It is utterly impossible for people to give their best to the industry when they know that when their wages are cut right down to rock bottom the employers, by the application of such a scheme, will be making in the aggregate greater profits than ever before.
I suppose it is useless at the moment to indulge in vain recriminations. It is very regrettable that such a scheme should have been thrust upon the industry at a time when it was in the utmost travail. I wish I could reproduce anything like the eloquence that is required to describe the industry as it really was—profits gone, export trade gone, the home trade sadly harrassed, the industry in such a condition that we hardly knew where to look, and yet it was under these conditions that this particular method of profit-sharing was thrust upon the men. The men have had no opportunity of understanding the thing. There is not one man in a thousand who can understand it. I am not at all sure whether in the Department of Mines it is understood. Now, I suppose, all that we can do is to hope for the best and to give such assistance as we possibly can towards bringing the industry out of the morass into which it has fallen.
Much of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman we can endorse. We can endorse his description of how it was through the action of the State that the industry found itself in this terrible position. It was the State that brought the industry into that position. It carried coal from the Midlands to Newcastle, it sent Cardiff coal to the Mersey ports, it made topsy-turvy of that which had been a well-organised industry, and generally made a hash of an industry which had been one of the best-organised in the country. Inasmuch as it was the State that brought the industry into this position, it was the duty of the State to place it back in a decent condition before it brought about decontrol. However, that is past history. Regrets are useless, and I only hope that in 15 months from now the industry may be enabled to reassert its own position as one of the basic industries upon which all other industries depend, and that we shall be in the satisfactory position of doing without any State help whatever.
:I join with the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. S. Walsh) in saying that recriminations to any great extent will not help us, but I desire to justify the interjections which I made during the excellent speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, especially with regard to the opening part of it in reference to the £10,000,000 subsidy. It is too often forgotten what the country owed to the miners for what they did in the War. I endeavoured, but it was not very successful, to get a narrative of the events of 1920, which were at the roots of our trouble, evil from which we suffered, and which led to the first stoppage of three weeks in October last year. Those of us who knew something in regard to the trade did not take sufficient time, perhaps, to soak the, knowledge into this House, but we did point out that the people who were in charge of the coal control were likely to commit some mistakes that would lead us into great difficulties. Those warnings have come true. If the Government were going to decontrol the coal trade why to Heaven did they not do it in March, 1920? If they had done it in March, 1920, there would have been something in the trade. We pointed out at that time, in March, that there were £25,000,000 which the then Chancellor of the Exchequer was hoping to get in order to relieve taxation; a very desirable and very laudable object to try to bring about. If it was intended to decontrol we should not have suffered so much if it had been done in March, 1920, but we went on.
Our miners were led to believe that there was more in the coal trade than there was. We had continuous quarrels up to August in this House and we began to talk not only of the £25,000,000 which was admittedly in the pool in March and April, 1920, but we had other discussions with regard to the increase of prices which led to a very large amount of money being talked of among the miners, £66,000,000 extra profits that were going to be made in the coal trade. And the miners had also been expecting that they might get an improvement. The Sankey Commission had made its report. All that was in the air. I will say no more on that, but the narrative to be complete must be started in February, 1920, when it became known that there was £25,000,000 profit in the industry to be taken over by the Control Department. Regrets are in vain now. We have had 16 weeks' stoppage in the coal trade at a time when we could least afford it. We had three weeks last year when we reached a settlement which was no settlement at all. We went back to our men and said that production is the thing which is going to save the coal trade. We called for increased production. We got a 2s. increase in the day's wages. We got another 1s. 6d. We forced production up with the result that it disappeared like the melting snow before the sun at least in South Wales.
9.0 P.M.
With regard to the £10,000,000, I was astonished to hear the hon. Member for North Lanark (Mr. R. McLaren) say that the owners would not reap any benefit from that money, that it would be all paid out in wages. When I heard that statement I thought that although I had been in the coal trade for 40 odd years I knew nothing about it. The collieries have other functions to perform before they can be brought into productive condition, and I understood the Chancellor to say that the mines that will be repaired and put into productive condition will receive a certain amount from the subsidy to meet the wages of the men employed in that particular work. In that case the owners will likewise with the men receive some benefit from that money. Personally I am not concerned with the uneconomical collieries, but I am concerned with the attitude of the owners in the South Wales coalfields who are not putting the men back, who are not applying themselves under the terms of the agreement to seeing that every man shall be reinstated. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to follow with keenness the work of opening the mines and the putting back of the men. I am all for peace and contentment for some years to come in the coal trade. If they likewise want peace and contentment they must deal fairly and justly with their men, and they must allow their men to go back and let that money be paid out as soon as possible so that our men can return to the mines and be able to produce coal for the country.
:Most of us are delighted that we have got a settlement of the coal trade, at least for the time being. Nona of us are likely to want to say anything to create disturbance among our people. But the criticisms which he have offered recently to the Government were considered severe, and we were told that we would have an answer by the Chancellor to the statement which we made, and that that answer would be adequate and convincing. I am afraid that to many of us who know the coal trade in detail the Chancellor of the Exchequer has failed to be convincing. I view this issue, not from the partial standpoint of the miners, but from that of the community as a whole, and when we criticised the Government for not continuing the control, it was not entirely from the standpoint of the mining community, but from the national standpoint. We thought that a great disservice had been done to the community by the policy which the Government were pursuing. When control was initiated all the financiers of the country and the commercial men who took a long view saw how imperative it was to preserve our coal reserves, and if there was one thing which would have helped the nation in a substantial manner it was the very policy which we recommended should be continued by the Government, but which, in our opinion very foolishly, was waived aside, especially in view of the statement which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made to-night.
He said that if we are to prosper as a nation then the coal industry has got to be put upon a sound financial basis so that we might have a larger output and a surplus to sell to other nations. We wanted that, and we believe that the policy of the Government has militated against that possibility. If this sum of £10,000,000 had been given in March, it would have enabled our people to hammer out an agreement. We asked at that time for a continuance of control, so that our people could get together and negotiate a settlement. That was waived aside. If it is right to give the £10,000,000 to-day, it would have been right to give it then; and if the wage cuts were indefensible at the end of April, they were equally indefensible in March. This country is entitled to a more minute inquiry into the miners' grievances, not only from the miners' standpoint, but from the standpoint of the nation. There would have been a great saving to the nation if that inquiry had taken place earlier.
It has been stated that the Government were wise in their policy of decontrol. I think decontrol has been a gross blunder. It means that there is to be no guarantee that we shall get coal at a reasonable price, so that we can compete in the markets of the world and have a balance to sell. At the same time we know that an enormous number of our men are to be thrown out of employment. If the coal trade had not been decontrolled we should have had the thick and thin seams worked together. Now that is not going to occur. Can anyone say that that is due to the selfishness of the miners? We exploit the thick seams to-day, and to-morrow we shall be compelled to go back to the thin seams. The Chancellor of the Exchequer quoted from Mr. Hodges and Mr. Smith. I am convinced that these gentlemen believed that the policy of the national pool and the treatment of the coal trade as a single unit was a proper policy from the standpoint; not only of the miners, but of the whole nation. But they saw that they were up against forces which would beat the miners into a state of subjection. If they recommended to their separate districts a settlement, it was not because they believed the settlement was right, but because they believed that, because of the stress of economic pressure, there was no other alternative to a state of abject misery and poverty and bankruptcy.
It has been said that we must have a greater coal output to enable us to get other commodities into this country in return for the export of coal. I fail to see how the Government can expect us to regain our old markets as long as the Spa Agreement is in existence. That Agreement soaked up all the markets we had left to us after the War. Although our men have returned to work, it is not because we have been convinced that the settlement is just, but largely because we are anxious that this nation shall hold its own. We want to see our country, which we think is the best in the world, prosperous. Instead of the Government trying to step in and judge the case on its merits, we believe that earlier in the dispute the Government took sides with the coalowners. We were disappointed that the Government turned down the findings of the Coal Commission. We think that this settlement will not ease the situation. Many of us are convinced that the only solution of the problem is in the honouring of the Sankey Award and in the taking over of the mines for the nation, to be worked for the benefit of the nation. Then, by economies which could be effected in many of the mines, we could put them on a sound economic basis.
:I was extremely disappointed with the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He said that recrimination would do very little good, and he was not going to indulge in it, and then he rehearsed every acrimonious incident that took place during the dispute. He produced at the table a copy of "The Western Mail." There is a dispute going on through the columns of that paper, but he only quoted from one side and said nothing about the answer of the other side. I suppose that is the legal way, and that a man who has had legal training lays emphasis on everything that is to his advantage and ignores everything against him. It does not, however, add much to the honour of Debate. The right hon. Gentleman also quoted from the speech of the miners' general secretary at Brighton, but only the portions of that speech which suited him. He did not quote the general secretary's statement that the Government alone were responsible for the stoppage and that the men who put the Government in power were the men who would put the Government out. He ignored that and only gave the House one side of the question.
He made very little reference to the position to-day in the coalfields. He said we had entered upon an era of partnership in industry. That is an extraordinary statement, when we find numbers of the colliery owners actually repudiating the agreement. In my own constituency there is one of the wealthiest firms in the country—a coal and steel firm—employing about 15,000 men, and to-day nearly 10,000 of these men are unemployed, because the firm refuses to employ them under the terms of the agreement. I want to know if this agreement can be accepted or rejected without comment by the Government. The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Kidd), said he hoped the Government would have nothing at all to do with the settlement other than providing the subsidy. That is a very dangerous doctrine to preach in this House, and I doubt very much whether many hon. Members agree with that sentiment, but I should like to know, do the Government agree with it? What would they say if the miners had worked under an agreement during a temporary period, and then refused to work under it when the permanent settlement was made? The repudiation of this agreement by the employers is a very serious matter, and I cannot lay too much emphasis upon it. It is no use for the Government to say an agreement was made between the coal-owners and the workmen, and that they had nothing to do with it. The agreement was made under the auspices of the Government. I have already furnished the Parliamentary Secretary with some information upon this matter, and I should like to know what he is going to do in reference to the Ebbw Vale Company which is repudiating this agreement and keeping 10,000 men idle to-day and which is proposing a reduction of wages contrary to the agreement, and reductions very much greater than those mentioned in the agreement. I have a copy of one of the proposals made by this company, and before the men can resume work they must accept these proposals which are not in the National Wage Agreement. The men have been told by the secretary of the Coalowners Association, Mr. Finlay Gibson, that reductions in wages will not exceed 2s. a day during the month of July, yet these coalowners are going to impose other reductions upon their own responsibility, and I should like to know definitely from the Government whether the employers can abjure the agreement while the workmen are bound to honour it? This is a question which cannot be evaded, though the Chancellor of the Exchequer tried to evade it by going on to a number of second-rate points which had very little to do with the settlement at all. Here are the conditions which the Powell's Tillery Colliery Company, which is one of the Ebbw Vale concerns, are trying to impose in connection with three pits, the Tillery, Gray, and Vivian pits. These collieries in the aggregate employ about 4,000 men and the conditions upon which work can be resumed include the following:
:How long has that payment been in force?
:It has been in force for years. The second condition is: a permanent part of the wages as cutting prices and the standard rate. Now they all say they will revise these allowances. We know how they will revise them. It means either cutting allowances altogether or very seriously reducing them. Then, again, they say that they are going to stop one seam, which will throw about 300 men out of employment. And they are picking and choosing in this way until there will be thousands of men in my constituency who will not be re-employed. What is the Government going to do about this? I have had a letter to-day from my constituency saying that these men who cannot get work, who are thrown out of work, are having their unemployment benefit stopped by the Government. You expect to have peace in this industry, you speak about concord and harmony, and yet we have owners violating the agreement which has been made by their representatives, signed by their representatives—honoured by the workmen and repudiated by the owners. What has been done at these three collieries has been attempted in other ways at some of the other collieries. I have here another condition of the Cwmtillery and Rose-Heyworth Pits: Wales papers stating the wages and amounts of reduction the men would have to suffer under the National Wages Agreement. No reference was made to the violation by the employers.
Last Sunday morning I attended a meeting of 10,000 men. These terms I have read out to the Committee were read to the meeting, and these men said, that although they had been out thirteen weeks and some of them nineteen weeks, they would stay out nineteen more weeks before accepting terms of this despotic character. I would like to know from the Government what they are going to do about this kind of thing, and whether they are going to condone it? The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that if the miners would accept the Act of Parliament he had passed he could deal with these men. Is he going to use this violation by the owners as a means of coercing the men under this Act of Parliament?
:My hon. Friend has misinterpreted me. I never suggested using the Act to coerce the miners to adapt it. I only pointed out that there were powers in the Act to enforce decisions of the National Board.
:Will he give an undertaking to the Committee that the owners shall carry out this agreement? Surely the Committee realises the gravity of the situation. Here is an agreement made under the auspices of the Government and repudiated before the ink is dry on the agreement by the coalowners. They cannot deny it. It is a fact. The Government are faced with this position that they have got to lend their sanction to the betrayal and perfidy of the owners, or compel the owners to honour the bargain which has been made. I believe the miners would honour the agreement. I am certain they would. The men I am speaking about have offered to go back to work under the agreement. They have offered to accept it, and I believe it will be loyally carried out by the men, although it is the worst agreement which has been made for 50 years in the mining industry. If it goes down to the minimum the men cannot live under the agreement and they will have 50 per cent. less wages than they had before the War, compared with the purchasing value of money. But the men have offered to go back to work. The directors of these companies have been dealing with this question and they wish to impose reductions upon the men which the men were told would not be imposed upon them. It is an outrage and scandal of the Government if they do not make the owners abide by the agreement. I suppose they expect the men to honour the agreement. I know what a cry there will be in this country if the men do not honour the agreement, and if it is to have any moral force upon the workmen it must be honoured also by the owners. I ask the Government to give an answer to this matter. Silence means sanction and it will be interpreted as sanction, and I am very sorry that the Chancellor of the Exchequer speaking in this House did not emphatically condemn this perfidy on the part of the coalowners. At any rate it will be some satisfaction if an assurance is given to the House. I am sure this House would never sanction conduct which would ruin any agreement.
:It has been my experience during the short time I have been in Parliament to witness two or three of these industrial disputes, and generally our experience has been something as follows: Before the dispute comes on, when it is looming before us, we are told, "We had better not discuss it now, because it is hoped to avert it"; while it is on, we are told, "It is best to say nothing about it, because delicate negotiations are going on"; and after it is over, human nature asserts itself, and the average man says, "It is all over; what is the good of talking about it?" I think that experience each time is largely the cause of us struggling on from one dispute to another. Personally, in regard to this coal dispute, I look forward with the greatest apprehension to what is before us after the temporary period is over. At any rate, it is merely a statement of a plain fact to say that a permanent settlement is certainly not down in black and white yet, and only a promise has been come to that a permanent settlement will be effected. I sincerely hope both sides to the dispute will honour that promise, but I am one of those who prefer to deal with accomplished facts rather than to build up too high hopes on promises. Distasteful as it may be, I wish to weigh up the results of this dispute and get out a balance-sheet from the point of view of the miners, but I would first draw the attention of the Committee to the laughter which came from the Labour benches when the Prime Minister, a little earlier, made the remark that when he mentioned the Labour party he certainly did not mean labour. I noticed that the Members of the Labour party laughed that statement to scorn. It so happens that there are millions of trade unionists in this country who are certainly not represented by the Labour party, and do not believe in their principles, and it so happens also that I am one of those millions of trade unionists who are not Socialists, and who are not supporters of the Labour party. Therefore, in the interests of those men, I think it is desirable for us to endeavour to examine the causes and try to draw some moral from this dispute.
What is the balance-sheet of the strike? The only real gain at present which the miners have got from the dispute is to reduce the average cut spread throughout the whole industry, which was somewhere about 5s. a shift, which was first offered by the owners, to about 2s. 6d. a shift for the next three months, after which the industry will revert to an ordinary economic standing. Taking the figures for 1,200,000 men for 65 shifts, that comes to £10,000,000, compared with what they would have had had they accepted the owners' offer. The profit-sharing scheme, to which I look forward with the greatest interest and which, I agree, is one of the most important and promising schemes that has ever been put into practice in this country, was agreed upon by both parties before the dispute took place, so that that is not one of the fruits of the dispute. The net result, after all, is that the miners, at the outside, have gained about £10,000,000 in regard to the cut and have lost £50,000,000 in wages, a sum which would have been sufficient, perhaps, to have bought out completely a quarter of the coalfields of this country and given it to the Miners' Federation for their own property.
The first question I ask myself is, Why was this fight entered upon? Did the miners' leaders think they had a chance of success in a fight at the time when this fight took place? What was the position at that time? In March the price of coal, although it had been falling for some time, was still much too high. Markets could not be secured for the coal that was produced, and the demand was falling off. Yet, in spite of that, the loss over the whole coal- field was about 6s. 10½d. a ton, without allowing anything at all for owners' profits or interest on capital and loans or for depreciation. If the coal industry throughout this country had been worked simply to pay the wages and expenses, without giving the owners anything for themselves or for repaying capital, 6s. 10½d. a ton would still have had to be found somewhere to make the industry solvent. If you allow 2s. a ton for the payment of the owners and for depreciation and for interest on capital and loans, that means that there was a total loss of 8s. 10½d. a ton. As the average output was only 15 cwt. per man per shift, that means that in order to put the industry in a solvent condition in March, if you had to take it out of wages altogether, it would have meant a reduction of 9s. 2d. a shift on the March experience without paying profit, or, to pay 2s. a ton to the owners to meet their profits and the items of depreciation and interest on loans, you would have had to reduce the miners' wages, if it all came out of wages, by 11s. 10d. per shift. That was "to make the industry profitable at the prices which prevailed in March, but, as 'I have said, those prices were too high. Those prices must be still further reduced before the industry again becomes prosperous, and so it is plain to see, as everyone of us could see at the time, that the money was not in the industry for the miners to have, and therefore it became necessary to tell the miners how they could get it.
There was a good deal said about a national pool, and the national pool was described to the men in such a way as to make it most attractive. The argument ,was put to them something in this way: "Here is a man in one part of the country who, if we accept the district settlement and yield our claim for a national pool, is working as hard as or harder than a man in this part of the world, and he is not receiving more than half the wages. Why should two men who do the same work in different parts of the country receive different wages?" Naturally, that was an attractive argument, and one with which everyone will sympathise, even though some can see that the economic facts of industry cannot take account of those things. If men are to be paid the same wages for the same work, according to our present system, it would simply mean that the owners in Scotland, where 18 tons per month per man were produced in March, would be able to sell their coal at half the price that the owners in Wales, where only nine tons per man per month were produced in March, could sell theirs. We all know that it would not be the slightest use putting coal on the market—one lot of coal at double the price—and to tell people, even Socialists or Labour Members and their wives, if you buy this coal, which is £4 per ton, you give employment to two men, whereas if you buy the other coal at £2 per ton, that only gives employment to one man. I do not think Labour Members, or Socialists, or their wives would buy an article at the highest price even on those grounds.
Therefore the national pool was preached for the purpose of producing a level of wages, and spreading the wage-fund over the whole of the coalfields. It was supported on the grounds of sentiment, that the men who did the same work should have the same wages; and the idea of others was that it would prevent great cuts in wages —because, after all, that was the cement that kept the rank and file of the Miners' Federation together throughout this dispute. It was not the question of the national pool, but the question of the cuts in wages, and small wonder that they were ready to come out, because the cuts were more drastic than any human being could be expected to submit to. That, however, is a diversion, as I did not mean to introduce my own opinions, but to endeavour to deal with facts. It is quite obvious that the mere averaging of the wages fund or the profits throughout the industry would not increase the total profits of the industry by a penny. As a matter of fact, the psychological effect of the introduction of the pool of profits would be to decrease the total income of the industry. It must be so.
That was brought home to me some little time ago when I was addressing some miners in my constituency and trying to explain the datum scheme of the Government. One miner interrupted and said that if they adopted the scheme and if their wages depended upon output, it meant that, while he himself might work hard to get up the output, the people in another district might be lazy and not do their share. The miners could see this in respect to themselves, and, therefore, I think they must realise that if you pool the profits you will find owners not doing their best simply because someone else might take the profits gained. We can all see that the pool itself would not increase the income of the industry. Therefore, if the pool had been constituted, there would still have been a working loss of 9s. 2d. per shift per man. I wish to say that in my opinion the question of the pool, as used, was nothing more or less than a hoax. An hon. Member on the Labour benches laughs, but let me show him my grounds for that statement. Before the miners were brought out this great scheme of profit-sharing had been constituted, a scheme which ensures the whole of the men throughout the industry a certain percentage of the profits. That is the main thing that they want, and the main thing the leaders ought to have fought for for them. What does the pool mean compared with that? The mere pooling of a certain portion of the owners' profits does not ensure at all that the workers will receive any given percentage of the total profits of the industry.
Take, for instance, the case of one owner who had made a profit, we will say, to put it in understandable figures, of £120, and another who had made a loss of £20, and, therefore, could not pay the standard wages. Under the pooling system, the owner with the £120 profit would have to give £20 to the other man in order that he should be able to meet his wage bill. But that would still leave the first owner £100 for himself. The profit-sharing scheme would have given the miners a share of that £120 to the extent of 83 per cent. Therefore, under a profit-sharing scheme such as suggested the miners in the mass will get a bigger wages fund than otherwise, while in the pooling scheme they do not get a fixed percentage of the profits of the industry. The simple question is this: that what the miners' leaders were asking was that the owners themselves should pass from one to the other a certain proportion of the profits, so that the miners should receive an equal wage in different parts of the country, while the profit-sharing scheme gives the miners the whole of a wages fund which, in my opinion, is larger than they would have received under the pooling scheme, and it leaves them to do as they like about pooling it among themselves.
All these things were obvious to most men. I believe that a majority of the labour men themselves, as well as the rest of us, could see that the miners had little chance of gaining anything by a strike. Therefore I am driven to the conclusion that if the men who were responsible for this stoppage thought they could, under the circumstances of the industry, secure anything worth fighting for, they proved themselves unfitted for. their position as leaders. For myself I believe in fighting when necessary, as a trade unionist. But it is disastrous to bring men out or allow them to come out without telling them the truth, for a losing fight brings the trade union movement into discredit and does harm to the very men you are trying to help. If the leaders allowed themselves to be egged on by others into what they knew must be a losing fight, then they ought to have courage to step aside, and allow the real leaders of industry—the corporals, as the Prime Minister calls them—to take responsibility for their action. It is the latter who are the cause of this dispute. We have watched the condition of the miners and country for now two years. We have seen what has happened. The miners have had to negotiate very often with the Government in regard to wages. Their leaders are sitting here some days as Members of the Opposition. On other days they are negotiating with the Government as representatives of their trade unions. They are getting concessions as representatives of trade unions and as Members of the Opposition they are abusing the Government up and down the country, and endeavouring to create the greatest spirit of distrust that they can against the very men with whom they have to negotiate in order to get terms for the rank and file. That has been the position under control. That is one of the reasons I am glad that control is finished. The result of it all has been that the men themselves have had distrust sown in their minds against the Government.
On the other hand, you have an organisation in the mining industry, called the Unofficial Reform Committee, and you have other extremists whose sole business is—they have taken upon themselves the task throughout the country, certainly since the War—to stir up the greatest amount of distrust amongst the rank and file in their leaders, and to spread the idea among the rank and file that if only they stopped work altogether, secured as big a stoppage as possible, they could secure any terms that they liked. You have had those two at work. You have had these extremists in the Miners' Union as well as in other unions deliberately subverting the great unions to political ends. A great number of those who sit on the Labour benches have themselves been extremists in their time. I can remember 10 or 15 years ago reading the speeches of the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Hartshorn), whom we look upon now as a most moderate man. I can remember reading his speeches and articles with the greatest feelings of disgust and abhorrence, and to use a colloquialism, "the game goes on," but when these men get into Parliament and are placed in positions of responsibility they become more moderate and they see things are not as they painted them in the days of the orange box. The men in the lodges are saying, "Watch your leaders, they cannot be trusted." That is what is going on at the present time, and that is the reason for this strike. The leaders have been forced into it against their better judgment. The rank and file of the men have had their minds poisoned by the prostitution of trade unions to party politics.
I say it is time that they turned the extremists out of their ranks. They are few in number, but they have seized most of the representative positions. The delegates' conferences come to extreme decisions, so much so that when the Miners' Executive decided to accept the terms offered the delegates' conference did not give any instructions to their men. It is time that the great mass of trade unionists set their house in order. We have seen that in the development of trade unions party politics have not been a good thing. I know that some of those in "the labour ranks are endeavouring to make capital out of this disaster to the miners. Having mismanaged the whole of this dispute they turn round to the trade unionists and they say, "You cannot succeed in your industrial action, and you must help us and give us the Government of the British Empire to mismanage." I say therefore that the best thing trade unionists can do is to use their unions for their own purpose, divorced from party politics of every kind, and then they will be in a position to deal with their own business, namely, protecting the standard of living and conditions in industry, and the individual trade unionists will be free to support any political party in whose cause he believes.
10.0 P.M.
:I regret that this discussion has taken place, because I think that much has been said that is going to do far more harm than good. It appears to me that the three hon. Members whose names appear on the paper as having given notice of moving a reduction of the Minister's salary have in their mind simply that they would get an opportunity of saying things that were not quite true about the miners. May I incidentally remark that my hon. and gallant Friend who has just sat down (Cáptain Bagley) is no exception to that rule. In my view, a little practical knowledge is worth books of theories like that from which my hon. and gallant Friend appears to have learned his lesson. He speaks as if the miners were entirely to blame for the dispute, but I take exception to that remark, and I would refer him to the people with whom I have spent all my life, and I am speaking as one who has worked as a miner. I should be lacking in my duty if I allowed any. man here to revile this honest body of people.
If any Government wanted proof that the miners were not out to injure their country, it has been furnished for them by the way the last dispute has been conducted. It has been shown conclusively that there was not the slightest necessity for the raising of such a large defence force, which caused a far greater expenditure of money than what the miners were asking for. The hon. and gallant Member spoke of the pool, and he suggested that, if the miners are so enamoured of a pool, they should pool their own wages. May I point out that the miners have been pooling their wages for a long time. Let me remind the hon. and gallant Member that a man working at the same kind of work in a mine that was paying up to 100 per cent, pays no greater wage than is paid to the men who work in the mines which are not paying at all. The hon. and gallant Member said that we asked that the mineowners in the wealthy mines should help to keep the other mines going.
It is only because it is there that you will want it for export. If you bring down production so that you only meet your home needs, then away go your exports, and there is a very grave increase in the price of commodities that must be imported for the benefit of the nation. A little practical knowledge goes a long way. The hon. Member for Cardiff was blaming the miner for the position which has been brought about. He said that he was the whole cause of the decline in production. I question that very seriously. We have a little example in a remark made by one of my colleagues on these benches. He said he did not mind how many men were employed in the coalfield; it was the number of men employed in the whole industry that mattered. Let me say that no more absurd remark could be made. The right hon. Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) in an interjection said that men were called upon by the colliery owners to get coals with a fork rather than with a shovel, so as to increase the output. This is the sort of thing that is said of us. The miners know that we want to produce coal. We do not want to waste coal.
Not only is there a waste of life in the pits, which is due in a large measure to working under such circumstances, but there is an extreme danger to the men in the pits from spontaneous combustion and all that sort of thing. I ask the Minister to remember that sort of thing. There would be few fires if all the coal were taken out. Let us see that such things as these are taken seriously by the Government under the wise guidance of good practical men as mines inspectors. I trust he will see to all that sort of thing. In speaking of the number of men employed in the mines and the number who are actually getting coal, we must remember that only one of three employed is actually getting coal at the face. Take a pit I know very well, where 890 coal hewers were employed prior to the War in pits out of 2,000 workmen. After the Armistice and before decontrol there were 660 hewers of coal out of 2,400, and we are wondering why the production per man has been brought down. You must fully accept that the output per man is less than it was before, and that is what has been happening all along. We have told you from these Benches before that your expenditure has been artificially increased. Everybody knows it. Go into any pit now and you will find material that will keep the pits going for months. That, again, has increased expenditure, and we have been told that the miner has done all this sort of thing. I have known of instances of it during the War, when coal was absolutely vital to the State and everyone knew coal was gold, where owners cared so much for the nation that they reduced the output in their mines. I know one instance where six men were engaged and the men could produce, and did produce, a large quantity of coal. That was wilfully stopped after control came in. Part of the mine was started and was unprofitable, and it took 30 men to produce a little less than six had done.
That is the sort of thing that has happened, and nobody seems to have taken the slightest notice of it, and the miner must bear all the blame. I am not prepared to accept these things, and I want, if I can, to defend them for I know them to be, as a class, as honest as any other class of worker in this country. Again I want to say that the reduction was due largely to the incident of the War. The miner was a loyal subject. I happened to be a local secretary during the War, and 62½ per cent. of these people went without being asked— 62½ per cent., including the boys, who were clinging to the old men of 70, went to do the fighting for their country. The very élite of the miners went, and we were left with the older men accustomed to work which required more head than brute force. As the Prime Minister himself said: "I asked for coal and they gave me it." Please remember that these men at that age could not do so much, and when the people went to do the fighting, your output per man came down, and after that the younger men came back to us unfitted for their work, and were wounded and in ill-health. They could not do what they did before they went. But we are told by people in this House by people, who ought to know better, that the miner was entirely to blame.
:If the hon. Member will excuse me, I never said the miner was to blame.
:The whole effect of this Debate has been to throw aspersions on the miners.
:On the men who misled the miners.
:Who are the men who misled the miners? I suppose I would be one of the men and my hon. Friend on the end Bench would be another man who misled the miners. I claim for myself and for the rest of my colleagues on these Benches that we are as loyal subjects, everyone of us, as any other Member of this House of Commons. We claim, as we are entitled to do, that we did our work nobly. The country has again and again returned thanks to us for the work that we have done, and I deprecate the remarks of my hon. Friend. He said we should not take industrial action, and then again we should not take political action. I want to know what action we should take to get justice for the men in the ranks. That is the position. If we strike we are wrong. If we come to this House and ask for justice here we are Bolsheviks and wrong again. I have been against strikes, although I have seen colliery managers doing their best to provoke them. I know too well the amount of suffering that must be entailed on the women and children. Many years ago I said I believed that the right course for the miners to pursue in order to get justice was to come to this House. I believe in political rather than in industrial action, for I feel that all we get from industrial action, especially in a stoppage such as we have just had, does not compensate for the losses and suffering entailed.
I have spoken in defence of the class that I have the great honour to belong to. I plead with the Secretary for Mines to see to it that the settlement which the miners, although they think it is not just, will as honourable men carry out, is also honoured by the other people. It will be for the Secretary for Mines to see to it that it is not dishonoured by the owners. We must have what is in the agreement for the benefit of the miners, and we hope that in the next 18 months the Government and the trade will avail themselves of the opportunity to re-establish the industry of which we are all so proud. I want to see the coal trade prosper. I want to see England once again the premier nation of the world. I want to see this England of ours as free as it is possible for it to be made. I want all citizens to lead happy and comfortable lives. I want to see poverty driven from our shores. I want to see that new and better England which the Prime Minister promised us not so many years ago. I want those who have been saying hard things about the miners to go among the miners themselves and take evidence on the spot, for I feel sure that they will come back here with quite a different story to that which they have been telling this afternoon.
:There is one small point in the speech just delivered to which I must take exception. It is with regard to the question of using the fork instead of the shovel. The Member suggested that the presence of a quantity of small coal on the working face might be a source of danger, but I am sure that no colliery manager would pursue such a suicidal policy as to leave a sufficient quantity of small coal in the workings to give rise to spontaneous combustion, and thus cause gob fires.
:I know from actual experience that what I said is correct. If the working face is not cleared of this small coal and dust it will remain a source of danger, and it is far better, therefore, to get it away at once.
:What I meant to say was that such a policy, if the danger was anything considerable, would certainly not be followed by any qualified colliery manager. There is another point, namely, that in a case of that sort there is no danger of dust explosion. I think the hon. Member will bear me out in that. The dust which is made in the face itself, by leaving in the small coal, is not of such a nature that it can give rise to explosion.
:There is such a thing as spontaneous combustion, and in the case of gob fires that is set up without any explosion at all.
:My point is that certain coal does give rise to spontaneous combustion, but no competent colliery manager would allow small coal to go into the gob if the risk was anything considerable. I wish to take exception to certain words used by the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin earlier in the Debate. If I remember rightly, what he said—at any rate, I remember the gist and spirit of it—it was that the miners have been beaten by the owners in this dispute. I wish to deny that absolutely. They have not been beaten by the owners. The owners were not parties to this dispute. It was entirely out of their hands long before the stoppage commenced. What they were beaten by, as the owners themselves had previously been beaten, was the force which, roughly speaking, we ordinarily term economic laws. It is impossible to get out of an industry more than there is in it. The owners were beaten when their profits went months ago. The miners were beaten when they were obliged to consent to a settlement which they think is not satisfactory. Therefore, the position of miners and owners, now that the trade is being reestablished, is that both, being beaten, are forced to join together in order to get over the economic difficulties which have beaten the two individually. Therefore, I look forward with great optimism to the further development of the coal industry as soon as the trade of this country is re-established. When two parties have been overcome in defying a force too great for any body of men to resist, they are bound to come together to see if they cannot bring about a better condition in the industry.
The Amendment which is still under discussion is to reduce the Vote of the Mines Department to call attention to the fact that many Members of the House of Commons disagree with the policy involved in the settlement of this dispute, and particularly as regards this expenditure of £10,000,000 of public money. My real objection to that payment of £10,"000,000 is that it is not charged to the proper Vote. It is charged to the Mines Department and to the settlement of the coal dispute, but it ought really to have been charged to the Education Vote of this country. That £10,000,000, and all the further tens and scores of millions that have been lost, were simply devoted to educating the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer in a few simple economic facts, which they could have got far more easily and at far less expense to the country out of a sixpenny book on economics. I hope, judging from the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer this evening, that all that money has not been wasted. The Chancellor of the Exchequer himself, and the Prime Minister and his colleagues— from whom, if I may, I omit the Secretary for Mines—have now learned a few elementary enonomic facts which will pre- vent them from ever again perpetrating the appalling follies of coal control.
There is another point. Looking at the practical side of the settlement, one has reason for despondency, though on looking at other factors of the situation one has reason for optimism. One has reason for despondency in the matter of the actual wording of the settlement inasmuch as that so-called settlement, as it stands, and as described by the Prime Minister, is no settlement at all and it will not work. I say this with all diffidence, but I say it as having had some little experience of the system of profit sharing, and very successful experience too. The essential condition of success in any system of profit sharing is that it must be voluntary and must not be imposed from outside. A second condition, important, though not so absolutely important as the first, is that eventually it must be settled by each individual owning company and the men whom it employs. It would probably bore the Committee if I went much into detail on the question, but I am really speaking from experience and as an advocate, as far as in me lies, of remunerating labour by some form of profit sharing, and I hope the Committee will give attention to my words. The real trouble, to my mind, of the settlement is that, like so many settlements of labour disputes in the past, it has been based upon a totally wrong conception as to where the competition of which we speak really lies. The celebrated Whitley Councils, the industrial boards, and all these various organisations which have been set up to bring peace into industry are bound eventually to fail, for the simple reason that they are based upon an entire misconception of industry itself, the misconception that there is some distinct community of interest between employers in an industry and a separate opposing community of interest among the men employed in that same industry. I am certain fatal trouble will result from this coal settlement unless the Mines Department, and bodies concerned in that settlement, keep firmly before their minds the fact that that is a total fallacy, that the competitive system is nothing in the nature of competition between capital and labour. It is in the nature of a competition of groups comprising capital, brain work, and manual labour against other groups of the same composition in the same trade.
The true conception of industry, and competition in industry, is that you have a series, as it were, of opposing teams, commanded by captains who are the capitalistic employers, and that those teams enter into a competition together which is in no sense warfare. The capitalist, with his team of men who are helping him in this competition, has no desire, as a general rule, really to damage his opponent seriously. If he is a reasonable, thoughtful employer of labour and a reasonable, thoughtful captain of the team, the only time when he really desires to smash up and completely ruin the opposing team is when the captain of the opposing team does not play the game fairly. I say this from experience. Some of the opposing teams I have met in past years have not played the game fairly and they are not in the game now. Therefore, let us try to get into our minds this conception and apply it to any possible settlement in the coal trade. The hon. Member opposite always smiles at any theory I put forward, but a good deal of what I have said on the Floor of this House during the past two years has been repeated again and again from other parts of the House, and even from the benches in front of which he sits. That is the essential point, that you cannot get a combined system of profit sharing over a district and embracing a number of different commercial concerns in that district, and you cannot get peace in any industry by bringing on one side of a table a number of employers who are really opponents of one another rather than friends of one another, and on the other side of the table, in opposition to them, a collection of all the various teams with all their opposing interests. That, to my mind, is the reason why the Whitley Councils, and all other organisations based upon that fallacious conception of industry will invariably fail in the future. Hitherto they have been working under extremely good conditions They have been working under conditions in which the meetings of the masters and men have been conducted more or less in this manner. The men's representatives have said, "Well, what about another 10s. a week?" The masters have replied, "Do not say 10s., say £1." The result has been that all these wonderful conciliation arrangements have worked with great smoothness. Now the time has come when it is not a question of the men's representative suggesting a rise which the employers willingly and even with zest double, but it is a question of the employers putting before the men's representatives a reduction of perhaps 50 per cent, in the wages. There comes the crux and the break up of any organisation based upon that fallacy.
The real difficulty in a system of profit-sharing, and it is a very serious one, lies in the fact that it is extremely difficult to insure that constant reproduction of fresh capital which will enable the industry not only to survive but to increase. I found that in my own case, although I had anticipated it beforehand. People are so hopeful of profit-sharing as a way out of industrial difficulties, that it is very desirable that we should know at the start what are the difficulties which are introduced by this system. Supposing an employer has continued the old system of taking all the profits for himself and paying the regular district rate of wages to the men he employs. Hon. Members opposite and many trade union leaders do not recognise the fact that it is almost inevitable that the employer who takes the profits for himself does not use it all for himself. He only spends a small proportion on himself, if he is a capable employer and fit for his position, while all the balance is put back into the industry to form the fresh capital to replace capital which is worn out, and to provide for the extension of the business and the employment of more people. As soon as he begins to limit his own profits and to distribute a proportion in the form of bonus on wages, the fund of fresh capital is tapped, and very likely at the end of the year, when he has taken a suitable income for himself, there is precious little left to form fresh capital. That is a very difficult point, and I hope that the Government, and the Secretary for Mines particularly, will bear it in mind in any settlement that is brought about.
I have called attention to a grave indiscretion on the part of the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil), which could do nothing whatever except to embitter the situation. I should like also to call attention to the speech of the hon. Member for Cardiff (Mr. Gould). That speech was utterly useless and extremely pernicious. At the present time, when both owners and men in the coal industry are feeling very sore, when they feel that they have both been overcome by superior forces, it is very mischievous to make such speeches and to endeavour to throw on one side or the other the whole blame, which is due really for the most part to the policy of the Government in the past—I do not say the policy of the Government during the present year, but the policy which founded the coal control. Now that the Government has come to its senses and is endeavouring as far as it can, even at this late hour, to do away with some of the absurdities and difficulties which have been created, we should encourage them and not throw too much blame upon them. I do protest against the sort of speech made by the hon. Member for Cardiff at a crisis such as this. It cannot possibly help matters. It put before the Committee no new facts of interest. It was a speech which more than anything else must tend to embitter the situation.
There may be some other Members who to-night have made speeches in a similar strain, but they have not done so with such incisiveness and such total disregard for what the effects may be. I have given reasons which, I think, show why I doubt the possibility of a settlement on the present lines, but I am very hopeful that out of that settlement there may arise a better state of things. The coal industry, miners and owners, have accepted the principle of making the sum total of wages much more directly dependent on profit than it has ever been before. In those circumstances there must be a spirit in the industry better than what we knew in times past. Consider this. It is easy enough for the single employer of labour, the ordinary individual, to make experiments which may cause him extreme loss, and in the long run, if carried to a logical conclusion, bring ruin to him, if he has clear enough vision to see that it is worth while making the experiments. But it is extremely difficult, and it is a thing hitherto unknown, for an association of owners to make a move of that kind in the direction of progress, and in the direction of discarding some of their own profits so that their employés may have a fuller and a freer life.
For this reason. An association of employers is invariably a very much harder thing than those employers as individuals. The employer as an individual is dealing with men who in many cases—I hope I may say so in my own case—are men for whom he has the greatest regard, but the soulless Association, just as the soulless Miners' Federation, eliminates every human feeling and becomes very often, I am sorry to say, on both sides a competition to fulfil the personal ambitions of the executive, whether it be of owners or miners. Therefore I see no harm at all though this district settlement will break down entirely, because when all is said and done let us face the hard fact that eventually a settlement cannot be made nationally and cannot be made by districts, but eventually by the very nature of things has to be settled pit by pit and man by man, for the final factor in the settlement is whether the pit continues to produce coal. But the main point is this. There is in industry a spirit which we have never seen in our time. It is silent for the most part, since few care to do as I have done, and to take the odium of appearing to advertise themselves. We have no pleasure in taking the lead, for it is no pleasure whatever to read the dreadful praises of the press, but we do it simply in order that we may encourage our fellow employers who are more modest to go forward on lines on which many of them are willing and anxious to advance.
:I am not going to follow the hon. Gentleman along the lines of many of his fallacious arguments, but there is one thing in which I do agree with him. I do not look upon this so-called settlement as one that will be lasting. The Prime Minister threw out a challenge to the House regarding his speech at Maidstone, and stated that not a word had been said against the words in that speech. Let me quote the words which the right hon. Gentleman used at Maidstone. I take them from "The Times" report of 9th May: of coal to be advanced to home consumers in order to meet an advance in wages. I got no direct answer, but only an evasion. As a matter of fact, the Miners' Federation have never asked for the price of coal to be put up to home consumers in order to meet a demand for an increase of wages. Another point in the Prime Minister's speech to-day was that he desired to impress the House with the view that the real leaders in the miners' movement were the extremists. There is no doubt that the extremists in any movement have weight. Many of us here would not disclaim the statement that we belonged to the extremists at some time, and we hope that, although the will is not as strong as it was, the spirit is there now in order to improve and carry on in the same way. In my opinion, the Government have done most to advertise the extremists. The Home Secretary has listened to the speeches of the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gwynne) and the hon. Member for Bournemouth (Lieut.-Colonel Croft) when they have demanded that these men should be imprisoned. The Government have made these men martyrs unnecessarily, and the best thing they can do to-day is to open the doors of the gaols and remove impending cases from the Courts. That would do more in the interests of peace, and do more to remove what is thought to be the power of the extremists, than anything else that could be done. If I wished to give testimony on behalf of the miners' leaders I might quote the Prime Minister. I will quote a very respected coalowner. Lord Gain-ford said the day before yesterday: to work and to do what is in their power, not only to produce coal, but to earn wages upon which they can live. To-day they are feeling the. pinch very badly, but although they resent this so-called settlement, they are ready and anxious to go to work.
I ask the Secretary for the Mines what is his Department doing to see that the other side honour the agreement. In some localities there seems to be no idea amongst the owners of wishing to have the men back at work. In my own district—and the same thing is taking place in other places, all over England, Scotland, and Wales—colliery managers are saying to deputations of the men: "We would have liked this dispute to go on a little longer; we are not ready for you to come into work yet." I know of cases where the men are ready to sign on but where the owners have said they are not ready yet, and whole villages are being impoverished because colliery owners are not anxious that the men should go back. I know a colliery where 1,500 men are employed near where I live and where the men were ready to go to work and sign on this week, but they have been told that the owners are not ready yet. Is that the spirit which is going to animate the coalowners in this matter? If it is, then it is not for the good of the country.
I would rather have the spirit shown by another colliery, the case of which I quote on the other side. This is a colliery owner who says, "a settlement has been reached and I intend to do my best," and when I left Leeds on Monday morning a boat had been loaded with coal that had been drawn from the mine that morning. That is the spirit which should animate all, that the coal should be produced and brought on the market because it is not only for the general good for the community, but the livelihood of many of our population will be safeguarded thereby. I ask, therefore, if it is not possible for the Ministry to compel the owners to do something.
There were three ways in which this dispute might have been prevented. One was that Government control should have been continued in accordance with the law of the land and as everybody understood it would be continued. That would have ensured peace in the industry, at least up to this date. Another way was to have met the miners' demand for the pool, and that, I believe, would have been a settlement for a time. For myself, I am not going to say that the establishment of the pool under private ownership would settle the industry finally. I do not believe in private ownership in industry. It has been said that you cannot get more out of the industry than there is in it. What is meant by that statement? Is it meant that you cannot get more out of the industry in a given year, and that a year when evil times have come on the industry? I heard the Secretary for Mines give an answer to the question a few weeks ago, when he said that profits in the mining industry within the last 12 years had been £389,000,000; and we have been told several times that the profits of the industry during the War were more than equal to the capital invested in it. You will never get a settlement in the mining industry of a satisfactory character while that state of affairs continues.
:Who got the profits?
:You cannot have a settlement under private ownership. The times are against you. Capitalism is doomed. It has failed absolutely. There is no hope within it. Whilst I am anxious to make the best of things as they are, whilst I am anxious that the men should be got back to work, and that coal should be produced, let the coalowners show that they are Britishers. I realise that these things cannot be done by strikes or by direct action. I do not desire that. But I believe that this House can be used as much in the interests of the workers as it has been used against them in times gone by. I want to see the House reconstituted of men and women who are prepared to see that the national interests are looked after and not sectional interests, whatever they may be. Only in that way can you get satisfaction in the mining industry. I personally hope we shall secure public ownership in mines and minerals, which is the only way to ultimate peace.
:I do not intend to follow the hon. Gentleman who spoke last into the argument on nationalisation, nor do I rise to follow hon. Members who have spoken into the precise apportioning of blame for recent affairs to any party or parties. I intend to deal more with the matter in the attitude of the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Hartshorn)—that it is quite possible that everybody has been to blame in this matter. It would be very unlike human nature if in a dispute which has been going on for practically a year every person had not at some time or other done something foolish, or even worse. The hon. Member for Abertillery (Mr. G. Barker) waxed very eloquent on having an answer to a certain point. He seemed to suggest that the Government viewed with complacency, or, at any rate, with indifference, the friction which seems to be taking place in some parts of the country over the return of the men to work. I can assure the Committee that the Government do not view this friction with indifference at all. Whatever can be done by the Department in the way of trying to induce owners and men to come together and agree to the settlement, we shall most certainly do. But of course it is very important that we should be fully acquainted with the actual facts of any dispute such as that which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Abertillery. I should like to point out what our position is. We have no power to force owners to open pits which they think cannot be run at a profit. We have no power to do that.
:We are not asking that.
:No, but what I think hon. Members wish is that we should have power to enforce the terms of the settlement when the men have gone back to work. The only way it seems we can secure that power is by putting into operation Part II of the Mining Industry Act. That will give the Mines Department the power to enforce the Regulations drawn up by the National Board, and that, I think, will secure that the settlement is properly observed throughout the country.
:Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that the Government have no power, and do not propose to take power, to do anything until after the National Board have made regulations, which may be two months from now?
:I hope it will not be anything like so long, but I am not aware of any power that we have to enforce, without either legislation or—
:Has he no power to withhold the subsidy in cases where it can be proved that these men have not been allowed to go back in the usual course?
:Is it not the case that the Ebbw Vale Collieries dispute is not about the general terms of settlement, but conoerns rather the fact that they are asking men to go back on the general terms of agreement which the other districts have accepted? The Ebbw Vale people have had special terms and concessions for a considerable period past.
:Is this not a national question?
:This is rather important, because in the Ebbw Vale case they are deliberately working to set the agreement on one side. The agreement says that every man shall have his, place when it is ready, but the Ebbw Vale Company insist on the right to put men in different places and dismiss them as they like. They are treating the men as if they had never worked at the colliery at all.
:I cannot discuss the Ebbw Vale case without further in- vestigation, but I do not dispute what either hon. Member has said. We certainly will look into it, and whatever influence we can bring to bear we shall certainly do.
:This is a national question.
:There are also examples on the other side, but we must look at this thing from a calm point of view and try to get it settled by agreement between the two parties., The owners and the men in the districts must try to settle it between them.
Amendment negatived.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Resolution to be Reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Colonel Leslie Wilson. ]
Adjourned accordingly at One Minute after Eleven o'clock.