House of Commons
Tuesday, July 26, 1921
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
Taf Fechan Water Supply Bill [ Lords ].
Bill to be read a Second time.
Stock Conversion and Investment Trust Bill [ Lords ],
Read a Second time, and committed.
Ordered, That Standing Order 211 be suspended, and that the Committee on Unopposed Bills have leave to consider the Bill on Thursday.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]
De Trafford Estates Bill [ Lords ],
Ordered, That Standing Order 211 be suspended, and that the Committee on Unopposed Bills have leave to consider the Bill on Thursday.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]
London and North Western Railway (Holyhead Harbour Leasing) Bill [ Lords ],
Ordered, That Standing Order 211 be suspended, and that the Committee on Unopposed Bills have leave to consider the Bill on Thursday.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]
Slough Trading Company, Limited (Canal), Bill [ Lords ],
Ordered, That Standing Order 211 be suspended, and that the Committee on Unopposed Bills have leave to consider the Bill on Thursday.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]
Wolverton Estate Bill [ Lords ],
Ordered, That Standing Order 211 be suspended, and that the Committee on Unopposed Bills have leave to consider the Bill on Thursday.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
India
Army Reductions
asked the Secretary of State for India what instructions he has issued to give effect to his assurance on the 23rd March that no further reductions would be made in the Indian Army pending the result of the inquiry by the Committee of Imperial Defence, and on what date these instructions were issued?
:The answer is in the negative. The necessary instructions were issued, and as a consequence not only have my assurances been fulfilled, but at the present time the number of units in the Indian Army is in excess of the number which I assured the House would be maintained pending the result of the inquiry by the Committee of Imperial Defence.
:Is the Committee of Imperial Defence sitting on this matter? If so, when does the right hon. Gentleman expect to have a Report from it?
:The Committee of Imperial Defence has been waiting for material, which is coming from a Committee sitting at Simla under the Presidency of Lord Rawlinson. I think that the Committee of Imperial Defence will meet very soon.
:Is this question going to the whole Committee, or is it to be considered by a Sub-committee?
:I am sorry if I used a loose phrase. It is a Sub-committee.
:Will the result of the Report of the Committee in India be published in this country?
:I am not sure. I will consult the Viceroy on the point.
:I think there is a précis in the papers this morning, and if the right hon. Gentleman will publish the full report, it will be a very good thing.
Mess Dress
asked the Secretary of State for India whether, considering that the blue serge frock with trousers can now be worn as mess dress by officers of the British service up to December, 1922, he will consider the question of making this the permanent; mess dress of the officers of the Indian Army?
:The permission referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend has been granted as a temporary measure to officers who do not possess ordinary pre-War mess dress. Reports of Committees recently held in England and in India on the question of uniform for future wear strongly advocate the continuance of pre-War pattern of mess dress.
Madras Strike
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he can say anything as to the settlement of the Madras strike?
:I have received no further information beyond that communicated to the House last week regarding this strike, which is still in progress.
Legislative Councils (Veto)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he will present a Return showing the questions on which lieutenant-governors of the eight major provinces of India have found it necessary to overrule, or veto, or modify decisions of their legislative councils during the present year?
:Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will confer with me as to the form of the Return for which he asks, so that I may take the necessary steps to present it.
British Army
War Decorations
asked the Secretary of State for War if he is now able to make his promised statement with regard to the decision of the Army Council on the claim of the Devon Territorials to the 1914–15 Star?
asked the Secretary of State for War if he can now announce the decision of the Army Council regarding the claim of the Wessex Territorials to the 1914–15 Star, based upon the explicit promise of the late Lord Kitchener?
asked whether, as a result of the inquiries during the last Autumn Session of the War Office Committee presided over by General Lord Cavan, any decision has yet been come to as to the eligibility of the Devon and other Territorial battalions of the Wessex Division for the 1914–15 Star?
:After the fullest consideration, it has been decided that the 1914–15 Star cannot be awarded to the 1st Wessex Division who went to India in 1914, as they do not come within the terms of Army Order 20 of 1919.
:Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the decision just announced is a violation of the solemn pledge given by Lord Kitchener to these Territorials before they left for India, and was it not a fact that they left for India instead of for France by reason of that pledge?
:I do not think so. The words of the pledge that was given were
"You will get your chance. I promise that you shall lose nothing of honours or awards."
Obviously, that could not have meant that all honours and awards would be given to that division, whether it had served in a theatre of war or not. No one would claim, for example, an award for Gallipoli who was not there, and, reasonably interpreted, I do not think that this decision is a breach of any pledge.
:Was it not to these men who were not going to the front immediately that this pledge was given by Lord Kitchener that they should lose none of the honours which they would gain by going to the war fronts immediately>
:Is it not the case that everyone of these men, as far as we can see, went to India with the belief that he had got that specific promise, and that they are now asking that it shall be fulfilled?
:Is it not a fact that when a regiment is ordered to India it is not up to them to say whether they will go or not, and that if they are ordered, irrespective of whether there are any honours or not, it is the duty of these men to go?
:Is it not a fact that they were part of the fighting Army of 1914–15, and ready to go to any place and do their duty, and that it is really not fair to them, when they were sent by the Government to India, that they should not get the same star?
:Has the right hon. Gentleman consulted the General Officer Commanding that particular Wessex Division, and what was his impression of the pledge given by Lord Kitchener?
:I have had a great many consultations on what is admittedly a most difficult question. This regiment was ready, of course, to go wherever it was ordered, but the 1915 Star has been granted only to certain regiments who dis. embarked in a theatre of War prior to 31st December, 1915, and this Division does not come within that category.
:Owing to the unsatisfactory answer of the right hon. Gentleman, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this question on the Adjournment to-morrow.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether any designs or dies have yet been submitted for the Territorial War Medal; how long it is since the ribbon for this medal was approved; and when the design of the medal itself is likely to be approved?
:The design for the Territorial Force War Medal has now been approved. The riband for the medal was approved in July, 1920.
Norfolk Units (East Anglian Division)
asked the Secretary of State for War what is the strength of the Norfolk units of the 54th East Anglian Division; what is the total strength of the division, and of each brigade in that division; and what is the cost for pay and allowances for the upkeep of the staffs of the division, brigades, and units comprising them?
:As the answer to this question involves a detailed statement of figures, I will, with my hon. and gallant Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The following is the answer:
The cost per annum, for pay and allowances, of the staff of the 54th (East Anglian) Division and its units on 1st April was as follows:
Remount Department
asked the Secretary of State for War what are the duties of the Army Remount Department and the Veterinary Department, respectively; and whether economy could be effected by the Veterinary Department taking over the work of the Army Remount Department?
:Broadly speaking, the duties of the Army Remount Department are concerned with questions of purchase, provision, transfer, maintenance, castings, mobilisation, and the general welfare of horses; and the duties of the Veterinary Department with technical advice relating to the health, shoeing, and casting for disease of animals in the Army, also the custody of sick animals and the general administration of the Army Veterinary Service. The suggestion in the latter part of the question will be considered.
:Is it a fact that the remount depots have been increased from 4 in 1913 to 10 at the present time?
:That is not the question on the Paper. Perhaps my hon. Friend will put it down.
Highland Light Infantry (Private R. Mchaffie)
asked the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been directed to the case of Private Robert McHaffie, No. 3,710, Highland Light Infantry, who has been refused a service pension, notwithstanding the fact that he holds parchment certificates for a total service of 21 years and 57 days; the certificates being, the first, 12 years and 193 days from 16th August, 1890, to 20th February, 1903, Highland Light Infantry (the 193 days included in this certificate having been awarded as a bonus or gratuity for service during the South African War), the second, 4 years from 3rd October, 1902, to 3rd October, 1906, Class D, First Class Reserve, and the third, 4 years and 229 days, from 4th September, 1914, to 11th November, 1918, Royal Scots, when he was discharged on account of ill-health; if he is aware that it is now proposed to regard only 53 days of the gratuity award as valid for pension, on the ground that the second term of service commenced within the period covered by the gratuity award, the effect of which is to reduce the certificate of service by 140 days, with consequent total loss of pension; and will he reconsider this case in order that the soldier may get the benefit of the full period of his gratuity award, either by adding the 193 days to his certificates at dates not covered by other service, or by regarding them, simply as an addition to service without reference to dates?
:As explained to my hon. Friend in the correspondence he has had with the War Office on this case, the claim to pension rests on the fact that a period of 140 days is shown in the man's documents as counting twice over in the total of his service. Making the necessary correction for this, the time actually served by the calendar was less than the 21 years necessary to qualify for pension. It is not possible to alter the historical facts of this man's military history as my hon. Friend suggests, and I am therefore afraid I cannot hold out any hope of an award of pension.
:Does not the hon. and gallant Gentleman think it a very mean Regulation that, because he is a few days short of this enormous period of service, this man should be deprived of a pension?
:These are the Regulations, and we must abide by them. The man was nearly six months short of the qualifying period.
:What is the object of giving a gratuity for service if it is not to count?
:That was done many years ago, at the time of the South African War. I cannot say why it was done
Deptford Market
asked the Secretary of State for War what rent is paid for Deptford Market; what staff are maintained there; and at what cost?
:The rent paid for Deptford Market is £10,000 a year. The total number of persons employed at the depots, including the directing staff, is 1,252, and the annual cost is approximately £249,000; the numbers, of course, fluctuate according to the requirements of the depots. In addition to being the Supply Reserve Depot for the Army, Deptford is also the Mechanical Transport Stores Depot.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can now see his way to give up Deptford Meat Market, in view of the pledge given by the late Leader of the House a year ago that, if substantial shipments could be promised from Canada, the wharf would be freed so that animals could be landed and slaughtered there?
:I would refer the hon. Member to my reply on 14th July to the hon. and gallant Member for Leeds, South-East Division.
:Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that all the conditions laid down by the late Leader of the House, on the occasion when I had the privilege of introducing to him a large and representative deputation, have been fulfilled adequately, and that nothing has since been done to fulfil the pledges given?
:I do not think they have been fulfilled. I met a deputation on the matter, and I cannot agree that the conditions laid down were fulfilled.
German Motor Vehicles (Aldershot)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether there is at Aldershot in the Royal Army Service Corps lines a carefully-selected collection of captured German motor vehicles; whether they are standing in the open and deteriorating rapidly; whether within two miles there are a large number of empty sheds and shops belonging to the southern aircraft repair depôt of the Royal Flying Depôt, which are unused; and could the German motor vehicles be stored there?
:The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Until covered accommodation in the vicinity of the mechanical transport shops is available, it is necessary for the vehicles to be parked in the open, but in the meantime every precaution is being taken to prevent deterioration. I am informed that there are no vacant sheds at the disposal of the military authorities at the southern aircraft repair depôt, and if further sheds were handed over I am afraid it would not be possible to adopt my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion. The expense involved in removing the vehicles would be considerable and the site is considered unsuitable owing to the distance from the mechanical transport workshops where all the examination and experiments connected with the vehicles have to be conducted.
:What is to be done with these vehicles? Are they to be used, or eventually sold, scrapped or what?
:As a matter of fact, I think they are being used for experimental purposes, but I will make inquiries.
:Would it not be much better to sell them?
:It may well be that there are lessons to be learned from examination of the actual type of vehicle, but after that they ought to be scrapped.
:Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that, after three years, the War Office has not decided what is to be done with these vehicles?
Army of Occupation (German Wives)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can state the number of private soldiers and non-commissioned officers who, since the Armistice, have married German wives; and whether the sanction of their commanding officers was required and obtained to such marriages?
:Up to the end of 1920, 138 non-commissioned officers and men serving with the Army on the Rhine had married German women since the commencement of the occupation. It is necessary for a soldier who wishes to marry a German woman to inform his commanding officer; and the arrangements made with the German Government require that he should furnish his commanding officer with a copy of his birth certificate and a statutory declaration as to his legal capacity to marry, for the purpose of being forwarded to the competent German registrar. As I have previously explained to the hon. Member, it is not the policy of the War Office to encourage such marriages, but the War Office has no power to prevent them.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a number of these German wives are now located in married quarters in barracks over here, and that their presence is very strongly resented by decent British soldiers who are brought into contact with them?
:I did not know that.
:Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to see that similar regulations are applied to Members of Parliament who keep foreign women?
:In view of the surplus of women in this country, is not this state of affairs an additional reason for getting the troops back from the Rhine as soon as possible?
Territorial Associations (Secretaries)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether secretaries of Territorial Associations will, on retirement after 10 years' service, be entitled to two months' leave on full pay?
:Subject to the ordinary rules, such as that debarring two men from drawing the pay of one post simultaneously, the leave granted to secretaries of Territorial Associations is regulated by the associations at their own discretion.
Royal Army Pay Corps
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is now in a position to say if men of the Royal Army Pay Corps who were asked during 1919 to defer demobilisation for six months or more, and who, on the completion of such extended service, were engaged as civilian clerks, will be placed in the same position as other pay office clerks and allowed to count their service in the Royal Army Pay Corps for increments?
:This matter is still under consideration, but I hope that a decision will be reached shortly, which I will communicate to my hon. Friend.
Aerodrome, Catterick Bridge
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that the buildings, land, etc., at Catterick Bridge aerodrome are rapidly depreciating in value; and if he will state what is to be the future of this encampment?
:I have been asked to reply. The future of this aerodrome has not yet been finally settled, but in all probability it will be required for a mechanical transport training school, and for storage of a certain number of vehicles.
:May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether anything is being done in order to keep this large aerodrome from depreciating in value, and whether he has any idea at all of the waste of money that has been going on for two or three years now owing to that depreciation?
:Is it not a fact that all round the east coast of this country there are these aerodromes rapidly depreciating, and cannot something be done to put them to some useful purpose?
:I cannot answer for aerodromes generally, because that does not come within my province, but this particular one has been set aside for a mechanical transport training school and for storing, and it will probably be used very shortly.
Officers' Gratuity
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, under paragraph 3 of Army Order of 11th March, 1919, an officer who has been gazetted out of the Army with permission to retain higher rank than the temporary or substantive rank held by him at the date of the termination of his service is entitled to gratuity on the basis of such higher rank?
:The Army Order quoted by the hon. Gentleman refers only to "acting" rank. An officer, who was gazetted out with permission to retain higher rank than his temporary or substantive rank by virtue of having held "acting" rank, was entitled to gratuity assessed on the basis of that higher rank.
Regimental Journals
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he is aware of an organisation of regimental journals called the Association of Regimental Newspapers; and if he can see his way to help both this useful organisation and the recruiting of the Army by advertising in the regimental journals belonging to this association?
:My attention has been called to the association to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers. War Office advertisements are available for publication in the journals included in the association, in so far as these journals are likely to serve the purposes for which such advertisements are issued.
asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware that many regiments of His Majesty's Army publish periodical journals which contain current news of the various units of the regiment at Home and abroad; that these journals are not run for individual profit and therefore are published at practically cost price; that they serve a useful purpose as a recruiting agency for the Army throughout the country; and that owing to the increased cost of postage it is difficult to continue these publications; and whether he can see his way to amend the conditions of registration of newspapers to allow such bonâ fide journals to be registered as newspapers although they do not publish oftener than once a month or once a quarter?
:The suggestion that particular classes of periodicals, though published at intervals of more than seven days, should be allowed to pass at the Inland newspaper rate has often been considered and rejected. Such an extension could not be restricted to the journals in which the hon. and gallant Member is interested, but would have to include practically any kind of publication. The newspaper rate is already unremunerative and I do not feel justified in proposing to Parliament a Measure which would considerably increase the existing loss by extending its scope.
Imperial War Graves Commission
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what is the total estimated cost of the work undertaken by the Imperial War Graves Commission?
:If the Noble Lord is asking for the cost of the work undertaken by the Imperial War. Graves Commission up to date, I would refer him to the answer given on 6th July to the hon. Member for St. George's, and to the annual report of the Commission for 1919–20, issued as a Command Paper (Cmd. 1076). If it is desired to know the total estimated cost of the work when finally completed, I regret that it is not yet possible to give any reliable estimate.
:Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to say that the Government have embarked upon this huge undertaking without having the least idea of what it will cost?
:That is not at all what I meant to say. I refer my Noble Lord to the answer I have given. He will see that I did not say what he suggests.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have asked for only the estimated cost of the work? Cannot the right hon. Gentleman supply even an estimate?
:That is exactly the question I have already answered.
Government Staffs and Offices
Colonial Office
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the officials of the Colonial Office receiving over £1,000 a year, including bonus, number 37 this year as against 27 last year; and what is the explanation of this increase?
:The actual numbers are 37 last year and 44 this year. This increase is due first to the transfer of 5 officers already serving in other De- partments and services to form the new Middle East Department; secondly, to decision taken last year by my predecessor to provide the necessary staff to deal with the German Colonies, which are a new service; and, thirdly, to increased bonuses-granted in 1920.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why there is an extra Assistant Under-Secretary in his Department as compared with 1914; and why this official's salary has been increased from £1,500 last year to £2,200 this year, a rise of £700 apart from bonus?
:The increase in the work of the Department due to the development of the Colonies and Protectorates and to the assumption of responsibility for certain former German Colonies has made an increase in the number of administrative officers inevitable. The appointment of an additional Under-Secretary of State is, however, a reversion to the arrangement in force prior to 1911 when the number of these officers was reduced. The increased salary mentioned is paid, not to the additional Under-Secretary in question, but to the senior Under-Secretary as Deputy to the Permanent Under-Secretary in accordance with the rate recognised for Deputy Heads of 1st Class Departments in the Public Service.
:Is it not the case that this extra £700 has nothing whatever to do with the bonus, but is the result of the assimilation which was reported upon by a Committee composed wholly of Civil Servants?
:No, I am not aware of that. In considering all these salaries it is necessary to bear in mind that the purchasing power of money has been reduced by approximately one half.
:Can the right hon. Gentleman give an instance in which the salaries of higher officials have been reduced?
:No, I cannot. I am strongly of opinion that the salaries which were paid before the War to the heads of great Departments of the Civil Service were inadequate to afford the proper quantity of men of that capacity, and I am very glad to find that that view was taken by a Parliamentary Committee.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the incomes of the majority of people have been largely reduced? Why should civil servants be exempt?
:Is there any unemployment in the Civil Service?
:I think it is a very poor and cheap thing to sneer at the Civil Service.
:Have the salaries been paid already?
:The subject will be discussed later.
Mines Department
asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to abolish the Mines Department of the Board of Trade now that the mines are decontrolled; and, if not, what are the duties that Department will carry out, the number of staff employed, and the annual cost to the country?
:The Mines Department was not set up to control the coal industry: the process of decontrol had already begun. Apart altogether from any question of control, the concentration in a single Department of the functions of Government in relation to mines and minerals previously exercised by the Home Office and other Departments had been recommended by various committees of inquiry, and it was one of the few points on which the members of the Coal Industry Commission of 1919 were unanimous. The duties of the Department consist primarily of the administration of Acts of Parliament relating to mines and minerals and the safety of the persons engaged in the industry, such as the Coal Mines Acts, 1887–1919, the Metalliferous Mines Acts, 1872 and 1875, the Quarries Act, 1894, and the Mining Industry Act, 1920. The staff at present numbers 404. The expenditure of the Department is limited by statute to £250,000 a year; the amount provided in this year's Estimates is £211,910.
:When do the Government intend to abolish all these Ministries and Departments which were created in connection with the War?
Civil Service Regulations
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether, when he announces the business of the House for the rest of the Session, he will say when the day promised for the discussion of the Civil Service Regulations will be given?
:Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will await the statement which I propose to make after questions in regard to the business of the House for the rest of the Session.
Board of Trade (Shipping)
asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of staff employed by the Shipping Department of the Board of Trade, and their annual cost to the country?
:I presume the hon. Member refers to the staff retained for the present from the former Ministry of Shipping. The total number of this staff, including headquarters and outport, at the present date is 677, and the estimated cost of the salaries of such staff for the financial year 1921–1922 is £140,100.
:How long does the Board of Trade intend to be in winding-up the Department of Shipping?
:Before the hon. Gentleman answers that question, may I ask whether the Ministry of Shipping was not an outstanding instance of a Government Department that has paid a good dividend?
:I think there is no doubt that the officials at present engaged are paying their way, and more than paying their way. I am afraid that it is a little difficult to forecast how long the work of liquidation will take.
Civil Service Salaries
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury (1) whether seeing that the National Whitley Council is the proper body to discuss matters of remuneration of civil servants, he will say why consideration of the initial salary of those entering the Civil Service has been referred to the Lytton Committee; (2) whether the recommendations as to salaries are within the terms of reference of Lord Lytton's Committee; and whether that Committee heard evidence on the subject of the initial salary of ex-service men entering the clerical grades from the ex-servicemen's organisations?
:Lord Lytton's Committee was constituted to consider the existing arrangements for the appointment of ex-service men to posts, whether permanent or temporary, in His Majesty's Civil Service. The question of the initial salary of persons appointed to posts in the clerical class could not be separated from the general question of arrangements for appointment, and was therefore certainly within its terms of reference. The Committee received oral evidence, and carefully considered written representations from ex-service organisations before submitting its recommendations on this point.
Women
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the delay in settling the question of the number of women to be admitted to the higher ranks of the permanent Civil Service is causing injustice to temporary higher grade women in the Government service, in view of the fact that the women eventually appointed must enter their new permanent grade at the minimum of the scale, that temporary service is not to be counted for the purpose of increments and pension, and that no consideration is to be given to special qualifications or experience; and can he see his way to revising the conditions of service in these respects?
:Pending the approval of the draft Regulations for the recruitment of women to the higher grades of the Civil Service which have been laid before Parliament (Command Paper 1116) and the holding of a competition there under, it would be premature to consider special concessions as regards entering salary of successful candidates.
:When will these Regulations be approved and when will the House have an opportunity of discussing them?
:That question should be addressed to the Leader of the House.
:Perhaps I may address the question to the Leader of the House: When will these Civil Service Regulations for women be discussed here?
:I think that was answered by an earlier question.
Personnel (Increase)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that one of the chief reasons for the post-War increase in the personnel of Departments rests with the multiplication of inspectors, commissioners, and such like officials, and the added clerical work which their reports throw on the clerical staffs; and is he able to say that, with the slowing down of the State housing policy, the repeal of the Corn Production Act, and the general decontrol of industry, a very substantial saving to the taxpayer can be anticipated before the close of the financial year in this respect?
:I am not aware that the number of inspectors, commissioners, etc., of Government Departments has been increased except in cases where additional duties have been imposed arising out of the War or post-War legislation. I anticipate a substantial reduction of staffs and consequent saving in salaries before the end of the present financial year from the measures now being taken by the Government which are referred to in my hon. and gallant Friend's question.
British Guiana
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Colony of British Guiana has for long suffered from a condition of stagnation so that little or no development has been made in it for many years past; whether it suffers from an obsolete form of government working under an old Dutch charter; and whether any steps can be taken to bring the Colony under a more progressive type of representative government, ensuring representation to all elements of the population, or under some efficient form of Crown Colony administration, whereby capital might possibly be attached to the Colony with a view to developing its industries and of utilising its hinterland which has many unexploited possibilities?
:I am well aware that the interior of British Guiana is undeveloped, but my hon. Friend will realise that the Colony lacks population, and that development and the introduction of capital are impossible without increased population. I am glad to say that, as I have already informed the House, a deputation from India will shortly visit the Colony to report on its suitability for Indian settlers, and I propose to discuss the question of development generally with the Governor, who is now on leave in this country. I cannot accept the suggestion that the present form of constitution does not afford equal possibilities of representation to all sections of the population, but before any change in the existing constitution could be made, the pledge given on the capitulation in 1802 would involve reference to the inhabitants of the Colony through their elected representatives in the Legislature.
:In view of the fact that representations have been made several times, and that there has been no change for the last hundred years, will this matter be kept in mind?
:How will the deputation be formed? Will it be a deputation sent by the Government of India, or an unofficial deputation?
:It is a deputation under the auspices of the Government of India—so I am informed.
Hong Kong (Women and Children)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when the local committee of Chinese for the improvement of the condition of mui tsai in Hong Kong was appointed; was the appointment published; who are the members; and have they taken any action or made any report with regard to mui tsai?
:The managing committee of the Po Leung Kuk, which exists for the protection of women and girls, is elected annually in March. The Governor recently reported that he was appointing a committee of Chinese ladies to assist that committee in dealing with mui tsai. The Governor has also recently appointed a commission to advise what measures of regulation of child labour were desirable and feasible. I am not sure to which of these the hon. and gallant Member refers, but if he will let me know I will enquire further into the matter and endeavour to let him have the names.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the "Hong Kong Daily Press" describes this official committee as so much official whitewash of this very serious and distressing subject?
:No, Sir, I am not aware of that.
Land Settlement Schemes (Overseas Dominions)
33 and 34.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) whether he has seen the statement of Sir George Perley, High Commissioner for Canada, as to agreement between the British and Dominion Governments regarding land settlement schemes overseas; will he inform the House of the nature of this agreement;
(2) if he has seen the statement from Sydney, Australia, that the British and Australian Governments have agreed upon a comprehensive colonisation scheme upon the basis of a joint fund of £30,000,000 to be raised as required and used in the settlement of unoccupied Australian land; and will he give the details of the agreement?
:The question of State-aided settlement within the Empire has been, and still is, under the consideration of the Conference of Prime Ministers, but no conclusion has yet been arrived at. Any decision reached at by the Conference on this subject will, of course, be made public.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman pressing upon the Imperial Conference the desirability of such emigration for those who prefer to emigrate rather than remain unemployed for two or three years?
:Yes, Sir, and I think very satisfactory results have been reached. These results have yet to be confirmed by the full Conference. I hope to be able to make a statement to the House before Parliament rises.
Metropolitan Police (Uniforms)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he can supply pith helmets and a lighter tunic to the Metropolitan police during the hot weather and use for this purpose the surplus khaki drill and sun helmets ordered for the use of troops in hot climates during the War; will he say why the concession allowing the police to wear their chin-straps inside the helmet has been abolished; and whether he can see his way to renew that concession at any rate during the summer months?
:A lighter pattern of helmet for summer wear has been on trial, and is now been issued to the Metropolitan police. Each member of the force is supplied with a light, unlined serge jacket, which is worn for day duty on all ordinary occasions during the summer and sometimes also at night. In these circumstances, I do not think the issue of additional garments is necessary. Permission was given last summer for chin-straps to be placed inside the helmet, but so few members of the force took advantage of it that this year it was necessary to secure uniformity by reverting to the usual practice.
:Has the right hon. Gentleman received representations from the police in regard to the wearing of the chin-strap inside the helmet, and pointing out the great inconvenience caused under the present regulation?
:No, Sir.
:Is notice being taken of the fact that last summer was cold and this summer is hot?
Traffic Regulation (Ceremonial Occasions)
asked the Home Secretary why, on the occasion of the unveiling of the King Edward VII. statue, it was necessary to prohibit all vehicular traffic south of Jermyn Street, causing thereby great inconvenience to vehicles driving to premises in the area north of Pall Mall; and whether it can be arranged that when on similar occasions in future it becomes necessary to restrict vehicular traffic it can be so arranged that the minimum of inconvenience is caused thereby?
:The Commissioner of Police informs me that vehicular traffic south of Jermyn Street was not prohibited. It was allowed to run through Charles Street and St. James's Square during the whole of the ceremony without any check whatever, as well as north and south in Lower Regent Street. Traffic arrangements are always made with the object of causing the minimum of inconvenience consistent with the requirements of the occasion.
:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that those were not, in fact, the orders issued to the police actually employed on the occasion in question?
:I can only say that the orders were as I have given them to my Noble Friend.
Conviction of Edith Roberts, Hinckley
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Edith Roberts, of Hinckley, who was sentenced to death for the alleged murder of her newly-born child, and who is now undergoing a sentence of penal servitude for life; and whether any action can be taken to serve a remission of the sentence?
:I can add nothing to the reply given to the hon. Member for the Silvertown Division on the 5th instant. It is too soon to consider the question of further remission.
Small Holdings (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, where concrete houses are being built upon small holdings instead of brick or stone houses, the Board of Agriculture for Scotland requires that the smallholder should repay his annuity on the house within a period of 50 years; and what, if any, additional annual charges fall upon the tenant under this arrangement, seeing that in the case of brick or stone houses the period of repayment extends to 80 years?
:The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and the second part therefore does not arise.
Post Office
Trade Circulars
asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the fact that British manufacturers and traders are now posting trade circulars and price lists in France addressed to customers in this country, thereby saving 50 per cent. of the postal charges; and, if so, what action he proposes to take in view of this loss of revenue to the Post Office?
:I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answers given on Tuesday and Wednesday last to questions on this subject.
:May I have an answer to the last part of the question. What action has been taken to bring these offenders to justice?
:That is not in the question on the Paper.
:Has the right hon. Gentleman prosecuted anybody for this breach of the law?
:There is no breach of the law. If any breaches of the law-be brought to our notice, action will be taken.
:But there is a breach of the law. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]
Illegible Telegrams
asked the Postmaster-General if his attention has been drawn to the illegible condition of a number of telegrams sent on behalf of the textile workers, Accrington, to Members of this House last Wednesday; what steps he proposes to take in order to prevent any future repetition of such an inefficient method; and will he cause the cost of these useless telegrams to be returned to the senders?
:I much regret the unsatisfactory state in which a number of the telegrams in question were delivered. Special attention has been called to the matter with a view to prevent a repetition of the occurrence. I think, however, that the telegrams were not so illegible as to render them abortive, and a refundment of the charges does not in the circumstances appear to be called for.
Telephone Service
asked the Postmaster-General what steps have been taken during the present year to improve the trunk telephone service between Hull and other large cities; and what steps are in contemplation?
:Since last summer an additional circuit has been provided from Hull to London, and two from Hull to Newcastle-on-Tyne. During June calls to London, Birmingham, and other large cities were generally put through within 10 minutes, even in the busier hours of the day. Work is proceeding on the main underground cables affecting the Hull trunk service, referred to in previous replies to the hon. and gallant Member. I hope the Hull-Grimsby cable will be ready for use before the end of the financial year.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he can state the result of the increased price upon the number of trunk telephone calls up to 50 and over 50 miles respectively from London?
:The information is not available in the form specified, but the number of calls passing through the London Trunk Exchange from the 1st April, when the new charges came into force, up to the 30th June, shows a decrease of between 13 and 14 per cent., whilst the revenue derived from these calls shows an increase of 47 per cent. as compared with the corresponding period of last year. The decrease in the number of calls is probably due in some degree to the adverse trade conditions.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that to certain sections of the country trunk calls have been considerably expedited. Is that because fewer people can now afford this method of communication or because of an increased efficiency in the system?
:Both factors contribute, but the principal contributing factor is the depression in trade.
asked the Postmaster-General the cost of the clerical work involved in the revision of contract rates for the telephones; the number of telegraphists engaged upon this work throughout the country; and whether the charge is debited to the telegraph or telephone service?
:The actual cost of the clerical work involved in the revision of the telephone tariff is not readily ascertainable, but an approximate estimate indicates that the cost of the temporary staff engaged, together with the overtime incurred, has been £51,000. These figures give the total expenditure up to the 16th July, and are equivalent to a cost of 1s. 1d. per station. On a similar basis it is estimated that the maximum number of sorting clerks and telegraphists employed at any one time was 400. The telephone service bears the cost.
Senior Sorters (Wages)
asked the Postmaster-General whether the wages, including bonus, of a senior sorter at the General Post Office amount at the present moment to £7 10s. a week, or about £390 for the past year?
:The amounts stated represent the present rate of remuneration of a sorter in receipt of the maximum of the scale which is reached after 14 years' service. This rate has been payable since the 1st of March last, when the last cost-of-living bonus increase was granted; it was 15s. a week less during the period 1st July to 31st October, 1920, and 5s. a week less during the period 1st November to 28th February. The payments will be substantially reduced from the 1st September next, when the next bonus revision falls due.
:Does the right hon. Gentleman consider it right, in the present financial condition of the realm, that the senior sorters of the General Post Office should be receiving salaries considerably over those received by the demonstrators and lecturers in the English universities?
:My hon. Friend's attention is directed to the cost-of-living bonus. Taking the basic wage, I do not think the figure is unreasonable.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the English universities have received no bonuses at all?
:They are not worth it.
:Is it not—
:This is anticipating the Debate of the evening.
Sunday Post
asked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the great loss and inconvenience suffered by the public through the present postal arrangements, whereby there is no delivery or despatch of letters on Sundays, and of the consequent uselessness of the Saturday evening collection, he can see his way to substitute a general Sunday evening collection and despatch of letters and mails for the Saturday evening collection and despatch?
:This proposal was considered when the abolition of the Sunday post was under discussion, and I have since gone into the question afresh, but I regret that the substitution of a Sunday evening collection and despatch of letters for the Saturday evening collection and despatch would absorb a considerable part of the financial saving secured by the abolition of Sunday mail services, and I cannot, therefore, adopt it.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that very large areas of the country cannot get a Monday newspaper at all and that Monday, one of the most important days of the week, is a dies non, and does he not think the commercial value of a Monday delivery that has not lain in the post for 36 hours is of more value than the saving of even a few hundred thousand pounds?
:That is precisely the difficulty with which every proposal for economy is met in this House. There is a saving here of nearly half a million, and in the present financial condition of the country I cannot agree to sacrifice that saving.
:May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of the high salaries given to the Post Office officials, they could not do a little more work for their money?
:I think my right hon. Friend cannot be aware that the Post Office to-day has a smaller staff than it had in 1914 and is doing a much larger volume of work.
:Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that a living wage for the agricultural labourer is as necessary as a Monday newspaper?
:May I ask, arising out of that—
:If we debate every question, it does not give other hon. Members a chance.
Ascot Races (Telegrams)
asked the Postmaster-General whether 19 telegrams which were forwarded from the Ascot grand stand telegraph office on behalf of Viscount Churchill on the evening of Wednesday the 15th June were franked on behalf of a Government Department; and whether he will state who will be called upon to pay for them at the rate applicable to ordinary telegrams?
:The telegrams in question were franked as Government telegrams owing to a misapprehension. They are being paid for at ordinary rates, and no part of the cost falls on the taxpayer.
Currency (Exchange Unit)
asked the Prime Minister, owing to the alterations in currency since Lord Cunliffe's Committee's recommendations were made, if he will appoint a committee to report on the new position, and if the terms of reference can include establishing a Active unit of monetary exchange with international co-operation; and whether silver might be the possible unit?
:I am not prepared to admit that there are any new developments since December, 1919, when the final Report of the Cunliffe Committee was signed, necessitating the appointment of a new committee to go over the same ground. I may remind my hon. Friend that the conclusions of the Cunliffe Committee were endorsed and re-affirmed by the International Financial Committee which met at Brussels in September, 1920.
Peace Treaties
German War Criminals (Trial)
asked the Prime Minister whether a further meeting of the Supreme Council of the Allies will be held before Parliament rises to consider the action to be taken having regard to the results of the trials at Liepzig of the German war criminals and other questions with respect +o which the German Government has failed to carry out its obligations under the Treaty of Versailles, as endorsed by its subsequent undertaking?
:I am not in a position at this stage to say what matters will be discussed at the next meeting of the Supreme Council.
:In view of the unsatisfactory state of affairs existing in regard to the Leipzig trials, can it be stated when a discussion on the subject is going to take place?
:I have told my hon. Friend I am not in a position to say what subjects will come under consideration at the next meeting of the Supreme Council. If I were in a position to say, I should gladly do so.
:Will the right hon. Gentleman give consideration to this matter, in view of its great importance?
:Can the right hon. Gentleman state whether the Allies are empowered to re-try those whom they consider to have received inadequate sentences in German Courts and to conduct the re-trials in Allied Courts?
:That does not arise.
German Reparation (Compensation to Merchant Seamen)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what use has been made of the moneys recovered to date under the German Reparation (Recovery) Act, 1920; and when the promised compensation to seamen of the Mercantile Marine who suffered in the War from submarine action, or to the widows of the seamen who have since died, will me made?
:The moneys received under the German Reparation (Recovery) Act, 1921, have been paid into an account opened in the books of the Paymaster-General entitled the German Reparation (Recovery) Act Account, in accordance with the Treasury Minute dated 24th, March, 1921 (Command Paper 1251). In reply to the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer given to the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) on the 20th ultimo.
:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Prime Minister faithfully promised that the first moneys recovered would go to the compensation of the relatives of these men who were lost in the merchant service in the War, and why has that not been done?
:If my hon. and gallant Friend will refer to the answer to which I refer here, he will see that no moneys available for this payment to which he refers are likely to be received, so far as it is possible to foresee, before the end of the year.
:But are we not to understand that over £180,000 in cash has so far been collected, and why is not that available for the purpose?
Sinn Fein Flag
asked the Prime Minister whether at any time the Sinn Fein flag has been recognised and saluted by His Majesty's forces?
:No, Sir.
Crown Colonies and Protectorates
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether, in view of the dissatisfaction in our Crown Colonies and Protectorates at the very short time allocated in this House to the discussion of their affairs and welfare for which this House is responsible, he will consider the desirability of allotting more time in future for that purpose?
:I have no information to show that the facts are as stated in the first part of the question, nor do I think that my hon. Friend can be correct in suggesting that any doubt exists as to the importance and value which this House attaches to the affairs and welfare of the Crown colonies and protectorates.
:Will the right hon. Gentleman answer that part of my question in which I ask whether more time will be allocated in future for the purpose of discussing these matters?
:At the present moment I have sufficient to do in allocating the business of this Session, without forecasting what may be the business of future Sessions.
:Will it be possible to discuss, on any Vote or otherwise, these colonial affairs during this Session?
:Not on any Vote this Session.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Appeal Tribunal
asked the Minister of Pensions if he is aware of many cases of claims being disallowed by the pensions appeal tribunal, in which the decision has not been in accordance with the medical evidence or has been based on inaccurate and insufficient evidence or a faulty record of the medical history or record of service of the claimant; and whether any machinery exists or can be created through which cases of hardship arising on any of the grounds indicated can be re-opened and reviewed?
:The pensions appeal tribunals are independent statutory bodies under the control of the Lord Chancellor, and it is not competent to my right hon. Friend to review their decisions, which are final and binding on both the man and the Ministry. I may, however, inform my hon. Friend that it is the practice to furnish the men with a précis of the evidence, if he so desires, thus giving him an opportunity of calling attention to any omission which he considers may be prejudicial to his claim. My right hon. Friend is now arranging to give effect to the Departmental Committee's recommendation that two copies of the précis, as sent to the tribunal, shall be given to the man in all cases without application.
:Is not the Minister in a position to reopen and review cases such as are described in this question?
:My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. All these cases have been considered three times already, the third time being the final decision of the tribunal set up by this House to be final and binding on the Ministry and on the man.
:In the case where a decision of the tribunal is afterwards found to be based on a faulty record of the man's services, cannot that be reopened?
:That is taken entirely out of the hands of the Pensions Ministry and concerns the tribunal alone.
Widow's Pension (Mrs. S. Roberts)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he will reduce the Army pension of 12s. 2d. per week to Mrs. Sophia Roberts, of 253, Pleck Road, Walsall, to the sum of 12s. 1½d. per week, in order that she may receive the 8s. per week old age pension to which she would then be entitled by the Act, instead of 6s. which she is now allowed?
:I have been asked to reply. My right hon. Friend is calling for a report on this case, and will communicate with my hon. Friend.
:Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that if the pension were reduced to 12s. 1½d., the woman would still not be entitled to the 8s.?
Royal Commission on Ancient Monuments
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if it is proposed to effect a saving this year on the estimate of £4,810 in salaries and £1,600 in travelling expenses in connection with the publication of an illustrated inventory of monuments in Essex?
:The figures quoted by the hon. Member are the total estimated administrative expenses for the year of the Royal Commission on Ancient Monuments for England. I am not yet in a position to add to the answer I gave the hon. Member on the 14th instant.
:In view of the very heavy taxation, does my hon. Friend not think this kind of expenditure might very well be postponed?
:If my hon. Friend will refer to my previous answer, he will see that this matter is being reviewed.
Silver Coinage
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it has come to his notice that in the new base-silver coin of 1920–21 many pieces, owing to the alloy, break at the edges and flake off upon the surface, while most turn yellow, and some brown and green; and whether, in consideration of the unsatisfactory character of the alloy, he will now revert to the old standard of metal in the currency, which, owing to the fall of silver to 36d. per ounce, would still leave a very heavy profit to the Mint?
:My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made careful inquiries, and finds that the defects referred to are not peculiar to the present or to any alloy, but occur in any coinage. Defective coins are ordinarily rejected on examination before issue, but owing to the extreme pressure under which the new coinage was issued last year, a few pieces, representing only a very small proportion of the total issue, escaped attention. It is not expected that 1921 coins and future issues will show any defects. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.
:Is my hon. Friend aware that it is only the new coins that turn green, and that the old coins remain a proper silver colour, and cannot some steps be taken to rectify the defect in the new coins?
:Will my hon. Friend do nothing until after the Irish Peace Conference?
Royal Air Force
Mesopotamia (Married Quarters)
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware of the discontent amongst married officers of the Air Force in Mesopotamia arising from the failure of the Air Ministry to make definite statement regarding their length of service in that country; whether any married quarters have yet been built for officers; whether any wives are allowed to go out; and, if not, how long it is proposed that married officers should be kept there?
:The length of service abroad for officers of the Royal Air Force has been provisionally fixed at a period of not less than four, nor more than five, years. No officer has been in Mesopotamia for more than 18 months. There cannot, therefore, be any justifiable cause of complaint on this score. No married quarters have yet been built for officers, but the urgency of this question is fully appreciated, and it is hoped that we shall be able to make provision, in this direction, when the policy as regards Mesopotamia is further advanced. Wives of officers are not allowed to go to Mesopotamia at present, for the reason just given. The answer to the last part of the question is, that married officers are liable to serve abroad for the same period as any other officers, and that no preferential treatment can be given in this respect.
:Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that his last predecessor but one, I think it was, gave very much the same answer six or eight months ago? Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman consider what can be done with regard to this question of married officers?
Promotion
asked the Secretary of State for Air how many officers there are with upwards of six years' service who, from various causes, such as wounds or captivity, still only hold the rank of flying officer; whether these officers are at a great disadvantage compared to officers of the Navy or Army with similar length of service and who are given honorary rank of flight-lieutenant when seconded to the Royal Air Force; and whether he can take any steps to allay the discontent in the service arising from this cause?
:I am unable to state, without exhaustive research, the number of officers of the Royal Air Force, with upwards of six years' service, who have not received promotion owing to wounds or captivity. Such cases were, however, given special consideration by the Air Ministry Promotions Selection Board. Honorary rank of flight-lieutenant is only given to an officer of the Navy or Army seconded to the Royal Air Force, whose substantive rank in his parent Service was that of lieutenant or captain, and this, therefore, does not place officers of the Royal Air Force at a disadvantage. Promotions are now made half-yearly, by selection, after the recommendations of the Air Officers Commanding have been carefully considered.
Airships (Imperial Conference Committee)
asked the Secretary of State for Air what are the terms of reference and proposals submitted to the Imperial Conference Committee appointed to deal with the question of airships; and whether any definite time has been agreed upon for this Committee to make their Report and for the Imperial Conference to come to a decision?
:The terms of reference of this Committee are:
"To Report on—
(1) The cost of erecting masts providing bases and fuel supplies, for the upkeep, commissioning and operating of the existing fleet of airships for purposes of Imperial air communications, with special reference to routes between England, India, Africa, Australia and New Zealand.
(2) Services by means of aeroplanes."
In addition, the Committee will report on the proposals which have been received for the formation of civil companies to operate the airships. The fourth and last meeting has already been held, and it is proposed to hand the Report to the Colonial Office to-day.
Building Maintenance Contract, London
asked the hon. and gallant Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether the existing London building maintenance contract expires at the end of September; whether, in entering into a new contract, it is proposed to extend the customary period of 12 months to three years; and, if so, whether, in view of the falling prices of materials, etc., and the disadvantageous position as regards working conditions under which the workmen employed under the contract are placed as compared with workmen employed directly by the Office of Works, consideration will be given to the advisability of limiting the new contract to 12 months, in order that the situation may be reviewed within a reasonable period?
:The London building maintenance contract will expire on the 30th September next; for the new contract it has been decided to invite tenders for alternative periods of one year or three years, provision being made in the contract for variations in the prices of materials. The desirability of carrying out by direct labour the work for which this contract is made was very carefully considered, but it was thought to be neither desirable nor economical. Workmen employed under the contract will, as heretofore, receive the recognised rates of wages and work under the generally accepted conditions in the building trade in London; they will, therefore, be under no disadvantage as compared with other workmen in that trade. The period of the new contract will be determined solely by financial considerations.
:Is it not the case that contractors' men have not the same privileges in the matter of holidays and payment for holidays, and what is exactly the function discharged by contractors in a case like this, seeing that the whole work of supervision is done outside the contractors' scope altogether, and by the Department?
:Those are matters of detail of which I should require some notice.
Judges' Emoluments
asked the Attorney-General whether his attention has been called to the position of Judges of His Majesty's High Court in regard to emoluments, as affected by the present high prices, and in view of the large additions made to the salaries of other branches of the public service; whether he is aware that in view of these circumstances the recruitment of the Bench may become difficult and, further, that the present pressure threatens to deprive the Bench of some of its most eminent occupants; and whether he is prepared to take the whole question into consideration?
:The position of His Majesty's Judges, to which my right hon. Friend calls attention, has been for some time under the consideration of the Government. It presents, in the circumstances of the present day, a problem of no little difficulty, but I hope it may become possible to reach a conclusion upon the subject at a very early date. I understand that the allegations of fact involved in the question are correct.
:Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give special attention to the revision of the emoluments of the Lord Chief Justice, in order that some increase may be made before the successor to the present venerable occupant of the office is appointed?
:Speaking as an impartial and detached spectator, I shall certainly do so.
:In view of the extreme urgency of this question, can the right hon. and learned Gentleman give me any idea of the time when consideration will be devoted to it?
:No, Sir; I wish I could.
:How the advocates of economy look after their own class!
Everett V. Griffiths and Anklesaria
asked the Attorney-General whether he is aware that the only grounds on which Harry Gordon Everett, the appellant in the legal action, Everett v. Griffiths and Anklesaria, was certified to have been found insane, from the observation of Dr. Anklesaria, were:Does not want to work, says he has not worked before, and he does not see why he should work, as his father is rich (he is not) enough to support him, and thinks his lungs are not well developed; and whether, in view of the fact that Section 28, Sub-section (2), of the Lunacy Act, 1890, requires both that all the facts upon which a person is certified insane shall be in the medical certificate, and also that there shall be real facts indicating insanity from the doctor's own observation, he will reconsider his statement that the appellant has furnished no grounds for his request for an inquiry into the decision in the action in the House of Lords?
:The answer to both parts of the question is in the negative.
:Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman seen the certificates of this man?
:No, I have not. It is not within my province to see those documents, but what I do say is that this man's case has been tried in three Courts—the Court of first instance, the Court of Appeal, and the House of Lords, with a patience which is only not remarkable because usual.
:Is it possible for us to see the certificate which certified that the man was a lunatic?
:No, Sir.
Housing (Cost Restrictions)
asked the Minister of Health if he is issuing instructions to the housing commissioners to cut the price of houses contracted for; is he aware that in some industrial areas six, seven, and eight persons of both sexes are living in one small room; and, in view of the fact that such limitation of space and such overcrowding will not bring up a Class A population, will he withdraw the restrictions?
:The price of building has fallen, and steps have been taken to obtain the benefit of this in contracts for houses. I am aware that in some industrial areas the need is still acute. Sanction is being given to the erection of additional houses in some of the most pressing cases, but, for the reasons recently explained to the House, I am not prepared to alter the present policy.
:In consequence of the fall in price, will the amenities of the house be the same?
:You will get as good a house for much less money.
Hospital Grants (Fair-Wages Clause)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether his attention has been drawn to a resolution passed by the public pharmacists branch of the National Drug and Chemical Union, to the effect that no grants from public funds should be made to any hospital or other institution unless the provisions of the Fair-Wages Clause are observed in the payment of the employés; and whether he will give effect to this resolution and make the Fair-Wages Clause applicable in connection with the grants to hospitals?
:I have received a copy of the resolution to which the hon. Member refers, and I will bring it to the notice of the Hospitals Commission.
Unemployment Benefit (Disabled Ex-Soldier's Wife)
asked the Minister of Labour whether a woman, the wife of a disabled ex-soldier, who is an insured woman and would otherwise be entitled to unemployment benefit, is not entitled to the benefit because her husband is receiving hospital treatment allowance, both living together?
:A woman who is otherwise entitled to receive unemployment benefit is not disqualified by reason of the fact that her husband is a disabled ex-soldier receiving hospital treatment allowance.
Engineering Union's Regulations
asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to the statement recently issued by the Engineering Employers' Federation alleging that regulations have been issued by the district committee of one of the engineering trade unions, which provide in one instance that any member having so much time allowed for certain jobs shall be compelled to absorb the whole of such time on the task or be fined £1 for each offence, and in the other case that all members shall, as far as possible, do a fair day's work, and that any member doing or enforcing more than may be considered a reasonable day's work shall be warned by the shop committee witnessing the same, and that if such warning be ignored the shop steward shall inform the president, who shall authorise a committee or general meeting to investigate the case, and that if found guilty, the member in question shall be fined £1, and 2s. 6d. for each day during which he so continues to work; and whether, seeing that so long as such regulations hold, good increase in production, which alone can tide the nation through its present troubles, cannot possibly be assured, he will state what action the Government proposes to take to meet the serious situation that this state of things discloses?
:I have seen the statement referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend. The matter seems to me to be one for discussion in the first instance between the employers' federation and the trade unions concerned, and I have no doubt that if the employers think fit, they will arrange such a discussion.
:Does the hon. Gentleman think that we are going to get down the cost of living if this attitude be adopted by members of various parties who are always out to safeguard different classes of people?
League of Nations
asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there is any direct connection between the Foreign Office and the League of Nations: and, if not, whether a representative of the Foreign Office could be appointed a member of the Council of the League?
:The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. All communications between Government Departments and the League are conducted through the offices of the Cabinet. As regards the second part of the question, it is held that His Majesty's Government as a whole, and not one of the Departments of State in particular, should be represented on the Council, but a member of the Foreign Office is specially attached to the British representative on the Council.
:Will the hon. Gentleman not consider whether it is really possible to divide the work of the League of Nations, so far as this country is concerned, from that of the Foreign Office; and whether the Government will take means to bring the work of the Foreign Office and the League of Nations closer?
:I will bring that to the notice of my Noble Friend (Viscount Curzon).
CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL [Lords]
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee D.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, as amended ( in the Standing Committee ), to be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 188.]
Standing Committees (Chairmen's Panel)
reported from the Chairmen's Panel: That they had appointed him to act as Chairman of Standing Committee A, in respect of the Licensing (No. 2) Bill.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Selection (Standing Committees)
Standing Committee A
reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee A (during the consideration of the Licensing (No. 2) Bill): Sr Thomas Bennett, Mr. Hayward, Sir William Raeburn, Colonel Roundell, and Mr. Stanton; and had appointed in substitution: Sir Ryland Adkins, Major Cope, Mr. Gould, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Pownall, and Mr. Wintringham.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Church of Scotland Bill,
Coroners (Remuneration) Bill,
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill,
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 9) Bill,
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Shaftesbury Extension) Bill, without Amendment.
Corn Sales Bill, with Amendments.
Amendments to—
Nelson Corporation Bill [ Lords ], without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act for conferring further powers upon the Rhymney and Aber Valleys Gas and Water Company; and for other purposes." [Rhymney and Aber Valleys Gas and Water Bill [ Lords ].
Rhymney and Aber Valleys Gas and Water Bill [ Lords ].
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
PILOTAGE PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered Tomorrow.
Business of the House
Friday Sittings
:I beg to move,
"That for the remainder of the Session the House do meet on Fridays at Eleven o'clock, and that Four o'clock and half-past Four o'clock be substituted for Five o'clock and half-past Five o'clock, respectively, as the hours for the interruption of Business and Adjournment of the House on that day."
I make this Motion in accordance with what I understand is the general wish of the House in all quarters.
Question put, and agreed to.
Supply
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That two additional days be allotted to the Business of Supply."—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]
:May I ask—
:We cannot debate this Motion.
:Can I ask a question?
:No.
Question put, and agreed to.
Work of Session
Mr. Chamberlain's Statement
:I beg to move,
Accordingly, we propose to take every available day—and what I mean by every available day I will explain in a moment—to complete the five days allotted for the Report stage and Third Reading of the Railways Bill, which has now come down from Committee. It will be taken on Wednesday, 27th July, on Monday and Tuesday, 1st and 2nd of August, and on Monday and Tuesday, 8th and 9th August, on which last day it will complete its stages in this House, and go to another place.
We propose to take Supply on Thursday, 28th July, and on Wednesday and Thursday, 3rd and 4th August, when the allotted days will expire, and Supply will terminate.
On the completion of the Railways Bill, we shall take the three remaining allotted days for the Safeguarding of Industries Bill, which will, I hope, reach another place not later than the 15th August. The following are the other Bills which it is necessary to pass into law:
A much simpler Bill for the settlement of claims in connection with the decontrol of the Irish railways,
Isle of Man (Customs) Bill,
Police Pensions Bill,
Public Works (Loans) Bill,
Telegraph (Money) Bill,
War Pensions Bill,
Water Undertakings (Modification of Charges) Bill;
and the following Bills, which have already passed this House but may require consideration if Amendments be made in another place:
Church of Scotland Bill,
Corn Productions Acts (Repeal) Bill,
Greenwich Hospital Bill,
Housing (Scotland) (No. 2) Bill,
Representation of the People (No. 2) Bill.
It will be necessary to pass the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill and the Consolidated Fund Bill. It is not intended to proceed further with the following Bills:
Summer Time Bill,
Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (No. 2) Bill,
Electricity (Supply) Bill,
Clinical Thermometers Bill,
Of other Orders on the Papers, the following we shall not press after 11 o'clock, unless they can be passed with the general assent of the House. A good many of these Bills are desired in all quarters of the House, and many of them are not in the ordinary sense contentious; but, having regard to the work we have had to do, and to the fact that these Bills can only be taken at a late hour, we do not think it would be right to ask the House to take them except with something like general consent. They are:
Criminal Law Amendment Bill [ Lords ],
Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Bill,
Education (Consolidation) Bill [ Lords ],
Government of Burma Bill [ Lords ].
The last Bill, I may say, has received the approval of the Standing Joint Committee, but it is not necessary for the purpose of bringing into force the provisions with which it deals. It was really introduced to obtain the approval of the Standing Joint Committee, but the Bill is not necessary to carry out the judgment which they have formed. These are the other Bill with which we shall not proceed after 11 o'clock, except with general consent:
Juries (Emergency Provisions) (Renewal) Bill [ Lords ],
Licensing (No. 2) Bill,
Law of Property Bill [ Lords ],
Land Settlement (Amendment) Bill,
Territorial Army and Militia Bill,
Trusts (Scotland) Bill [ Lords ],
Admiralty Pensions Bill.
There is another Bill which, I think, has not yet even been presented, and which, in deference to the Public Accounts Committee, the Government will present, but they can only pass it into law if it have general consent in the manner I have described. It is a Bill for the amendment of the Exchequer and Audits Act, which the Public Accounts Committee think ought to be brought before the House of Commons, and which we shall be glad to pass if the House will pass it by consent.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it was not a unanimous recommendation?
:Perhaps the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee would be in a better position than I am to state the exact measure of disagreement. This Bill comes down to us with a recommendation from the Public Accounts Committee, and it is in deference to that Committee that I consented to put it on the Notice Paper at this time of the Session.
:Perhaps it would be a good thing to introduce it.
:I propose to do that. The House will see that I retain a good many Measures in the list. They are retained for practical purposes, if they can be passed with general consent. With the programme thus limited, I hope it may be possible for the House to rise not later than the 26th August, and possibly at a date between the 19th and the 26th of August. The 19th is the earliest possible date and the 26th is, I think, the latest probable date, although in this respect a good deal depends on what be done in another place, and the amount of time the other House may require for the consideration of the Measures, the number and character of the Amendments which they may make. That is what I submit to the House as the limited programme which the Government hope to be able to carry out. The alternative is, of course, an Autumn Session. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?" and "Cheers!"] I permit myself to observe that the enthusiastic cheers with which the suggestion of an Autumn Session is met in certain quarters is no measure of the real desire for it, even in those quarters.
:It is the desire of the country anyhow.
:I desire to make my statement with as much general agreement as it is possible for the Government to obtain, and I think it will be generally agreed that the inconvenience, and more than inconvenience, to the public service and the strain upon Members which would be involved by an Autumn Session is not to be contemplated unless the adoption of that expedient greatly lighten our labours at the present time, and enables us to adjourn at a much earlier date than otherwise. But that is not the fact. As I stated at the beginning of my observations, the railway situation is a dominant factor in the whole position. We cannot take the responsibility of adjourning Parliament, leaving the railway situation unsettled, the whole of railway finance in confusion, and the entire railway policy of the Government undetermined. That being once granted, there is very little difference between the time at which we could adjourn, and the time by which we can conclude our business and prorogue.
I am sure it is desirable—and every Member of this House in his heart knows it is desirable—that we should not have an Autumn Session again this year. Let me remind the House of a fact which I brought to its notice on an earlier Motion. Since 1907, 13 years have passed, exclusive of the one in which we now are, and in 12 out of those 13 years Parliament has sat not only in the summer, but also in the autumn. This Session of Parliament, this Parliament, I think I may say, has been a very hard-worked Parliament. There has been, inevitably in the period of reconstruction, an immense amount of work to do, and Members have lent themselves readily for the purpose of that work. This Session has been a particularly hard one, owing to the number of Standing Committees and other Committees which have been set up, and the very arduous labours which they have had to undertake. I think that for the House some respite, some holiday, is necessary, in order that it may be in a position to discharge its duties to the country next year. More than that, immense as is the strain upon the House, the strain upon the Government and upon Departments of the Government is, I am sure the House will permit me to say, even greater. Ministers have been dealing daily with a variety of problems of such complexity, immensity, and delicacy as seldom falls to the lot of any Administration.
I should not express my thoughts, not my thoughts, but my profound conviction, if I did not say that the constant sitting of Parliament makes it impossible for any Government, and, above all, for a Government largely composed of Ministers who have borne responsibility for a great number of years, adequately to discharge their duties in the administration of their offices, in the consideration of their policy, and in all the administrative and executive work which goes on outside the House of Commons no less than in the preparation of the legislative Measures which they have to lay before Parliament. Again, I say it is not only the Ministers, but the principal officers especially of the Civil Service who are taxed in proportion as Ministers are taxed, and the strain upon them of this continuous Parliamentary Session becomes as difficult to endure as it is for Ministers, and renders it as impossible that those officers should do their work in the most efficient way as it is for Ministers.
I therefore submit to the House that, in the first place, in the interests of public business, and in justice to the House itself, we ought to avoid an Autumn Session if it be in any way possible, and, in the second place, that if we decided now to adjourn at the first moment at which we could, and carry over all other business to the autumn it would make no appreciable difference—I will not say no appreciable difference, but no substantial difference—in the length of time that the House would be kept sitting this month and next.
There is, perhaps, one other topic with which I ought to deal, for it will be in the minds of many Members of the House. I refer to Ireland, and to the negotiations which have been proceeding, and which for the moment are suspended, but are still in existence, between the Government and parties in Ireland. It may be, if these negotiations result, as I earnestly hope that they will, in a settlement honourable and satisfactory to the different parties concerned, and if, therefore, Irish peace be in sight, a very early consideration by Parliament may be necessary. But so far as we can see, in that happy contingency, agreement could not have reached the point at which it could be embodied in legislation to be submitted to this House at any early date.
At present, merely the outlines or principles of a settlement have been propounded. To those no answer has yet been received. If they be accepted, they may become the basis for a conference. Then many matters of detail would remain for discussion and adjustment, and, when all had been concluded, time must be given for embodying the result in satisfactory statutory form. Accordingly, we do not anticipate, in the most hopeful contingency—the contingency for which we all hope, the contingency which would be best of all of an agreement being reached—that an early Session of Parliament would be required or indeed be possible. But in such a case, we have in mind—and I owe it to the House to state it—the possibility, I put it as no more than the possibility at present, of summoning a new Session, to begin early in December, or perhaps the last week in November, in order to deal with that particular question before Christmas, and then going on with the ordinary business of the new Session in the new year, after a Christmas adjournment.
There is one other contingency which I devoutly pray may not be realised, but I ought perhaps to mention it, for if I do not mention it, I may be asked what the Government would suggest in such a case. It is the contingency that the negotiations, instead of meeting with success, should fail. In that case; I think we must know, before Parliament prorogue, what are the prospects, and a statement certainly before Parliament prorogue must be made to Parliament, discussed if need be, and we can then take such decisions as are necessary. In the present circumstances of the situation, I hope that the happier result will follow, and, if that be the case, then I anticipate that a meeting at the end of November, or in December, would probably afford the earliest opportunity at which the legislation required by the settlement could be ready for the consideration of Parliament. I hope that I have made a statement which, at any rate, leaves the position clear to the House.
As to the limit of the output of legislation, much depends, of course, upon the attitude in this House, and the willingness of Members to treat as non-controversial Measures which in themselves are non-controversial. Much, depends upon the measure of goodwill which we shall find in the House in endeavouring to close the Session at this early date; but for what is essential and necessary I believe, as I say, that we may adjourn not before the 19th, and not later than the 26th of August, if the House will approve of the proposals which the Government have made. I ought perhaps to add, as regards business after 11 o'clock, that I shall be perfectly ready to state early on each day, if that be the desire of Members—
:Or the day before.
:I will not pledge myself to do that, though I do not refuse it. It is a matter for arrangement and consideration. At any rate, I will give the House notice in answer to a question at the close of Question Time what business we propose to take after 11 o'clock on any particular night.
:The later sentences of my right hon. Friend, especially those relating to Ireland, in my opinion make it very little removed from certainty that we shall have an Autumn Session, whether it is by means of an adjournment now or the meeting of the House for a fresh Session. Therefore, I am of opinion that it would be very much better if the House were to adjourn at the end of next week and to meet at a reasonable time in the autumn, some time, say, in November, with a programme cut down to its narrowest limits.
:I had hoped that I had made the position clear to my right hon. Friend, but I am afraid that I failed. His proposal is not possible, because of the Railways Bill.
:It can be done next week.
:No, you cannot get the Railways Bill, the necessary Supply, and the Consolidated Fund Bill through this House and through the other House next week, and adjourn as my right hon. Friend says. I tried to make that clear.
:I quite appreciated my right hon. Friend's point with regard to the Railways Bill, but, with much respect, I hold a different opinion with regard to that Bill. It is by no means clear to me that it is absolutely essential that the Railways Bill should become an Act by the 15th August. The money has not to be found until the end of December. There are some legislative and administrative means—there is no doubt about that—of dealing with the immediate situation which arises, and giving another place—this is very important, because there are many members of another place who are specially and peculiarly qualified to deal with such a matter as the Railways Bill—ample time in which to discuss and to handle such an important Measure. Turning from that to the announcement which the right hon. Gentleman has made, he has accomplished what is ordinarily known as the Slaughter of the Innocents with the usual celerity and politeness and complete hardness and indifference to the offspring not only of the Government but of other Members of this House. Speaking generally, I do not quarrel with the classes into which he has divided the Measures. I hope, myself, that one of the Measures which will go through by consent will be the Licensing Bill which we discussed last Friday, for whatever our differences of opinion may be as regards details, it is, on the whole, a most important Measure to get on the Statute Book before the House rises. There is another Measure which my right hon. Friend omitted from his list. I was hoping that he would have included the Guardianship of Infants Bill, as to which there is a very large amount of opinion both inside and outside the House steadily and strongly in its support. As far as my observation goes, I do not know that the only two Amendments which have been put down to it are very strongly backed in the House, and I hope that the Measure may find itself, sooner or later, one of the successful entries for the Parliamentary race between now and the rising of the House.
I want to say a word or two about the way in which, I suggest, the Government have mismanaged the whole of the business of the House since the sittings commenced. My right hon. Friend may say that that is common to us all. However that may be, on this occasion the complaint is backed by a moral earnestness which is not often associated with this particular occasion. If I may be excused for referring to what took place in the course of the Debate last December, when I spoke from this side of the House, and the late Leader of the House replied, I would remind hon. Members that I suggested to the right hon. Gentleman, and the suggestion received very strong backing in the House, that what the Government ought to do in the forthcoming Session was to introduce a minimum of legislation and to concentrate themselves on the vitally important question of administration, especially financial. My right hon. Friend the then Leader of the House heartily agreed with me and said he hoped that that would be the case. What has happened? We have had brought in Bills which have excited the deepest differences of conviction. Take the Safeguarding of Industries Bill. What amount of Parliamentary time and temper has been expended on that? Accepting the time limit as defined in the Resolution of the House, and what preceded in the discussions on the Finance Resolution, no fewer than 14 days have been and will be devoted to that Measure. That really amounts, and Members of the House will appreciate the point, I am sure, to very little short of four and a half weeks of Parliamentary time. When you talk about Parliamentary time you must exclude Fridays, and you must also exclude the regular Supply day. Therefore you only have three Parliamentary days per week, and accepting that method of computation, I am well within the mark when I say that four and a half weeks of regular Parliamentary time will have been devoted to this Measure. I am not going to discuss the merits of the Bill. I will only just say this. There was never a more wholly unreal Parliamentary performance staged on the Floor of the House. Nobody believes in it, with, perhaps, one or two exceptions, and there is quite clearly and definitely a real breach of the understanding on which my right hon. Friend the late Leader of the House undertook his duties this Session.
:What is it the right hon. Gentleman says that nobody believes in?
:Nobody, with perhaps one or two exceptions, believes in the Safeguarding of Industries Bill. Then again take the way in which Parliamentary time has been occupied in the reversal of Measures, the Agriculture Act, and another Act, the latter quite a small point of detail, and explanatory of a small omission in a previous Bill. There is the Bill which passed through our hands last night on which a full Parliamentary day was spent, the Third Reading being telescoped into 45 minutes at the end of the Sitting, and finished off by the Closure. There is, too, the question of housing. That had one full day's Debate of Parliamentary time. You have had another Parliamentary week spent on these Measures, and on the reversal and repeal of Acts already passed. That is not the full record.
The most serious matter after all is the question of finance. How does the House stand with regard to its duties in respect of that? My right hon. Friend has given us two extra days for Supply. Here is a very brief review of the actual situation. It shows how little time is still left for the consideration of the most important part of our Parliamentary duty. The Estimates for the Army, Navy, and Air Forces total £209,000,000. Of that sum the House has actually voted £107,000,000. The Army Estimates received one day's Debate only, and what is going to happen is this, that nearly £103,000,000 is going to be voted under the Guillotine for the Army without any further discussion unless more Parliamentary time is given to it. I know the answer always accorded to that is that that is a matter for the Opposition to arrange, but that would be quite impossible, owing to the pressure of subjects we have been compelled to raise, pressure not only from this side of the House, not only from the regular Opposition, but in response to desires and requests from all parts of the House, for we have tried to assist the general body of the House in bringing matters before it in Committee of Supply.
Turning for a moment or two to the question of the Civil Service Votes, this is the position. The Civil Service Estimates were £379,000,000, and the Revenue Department Estimate was £82,000,000, thus giving us a total of £461,000,000. There has been voted in Committee of Supply, and I am assuming that the Scottish Votes will be given on Thursday next, £137,000,000, leaving a total of £324,000,000 on the Civil Service alone to fall under the Guillotine without discussion. £197,000,000 has been voted on account, but Votes on Account, as everyone knows, nearly always resolve themselves into discussions on large questions of policy, and never on Votes on Account do you get the close attention which is mostly paid in Committee of Supply to the actual Estimates themselves. But allowing that £197,000,000, it still remains a fact that we shall without one word of discussion, when the Guillotine falls, vote no less a sum than £127,000,000, and whatever may have been said of that in the piping times of prosperity before the War began, it ought to be an intolerable situation now. What the Government ought to do, I suggest, is this. I quite agree it can only be done on the assumption that we adjourn till the autumn. The Govern- ment ought to devote as many days as possible to Committee of Supply, and give the necessary extra days for that purpose, rather than let this disgrace fall once again on the House of passing hundreds of millions of pounds under the Guillotine without a word of discussion. It is vitally necessary that this time should be spent; it is the only way in which the Departments concerned and the Ministers at the head of them can be brought face to face with the insistent demands of the country for economy and efficiency in their Departments.
There is another most important matter, and that is what are we going to do with the Supplementary Estimates before the House rises? Supplementary Estimates are always miscalculations. Some you cannot avoid. Most of them can be avoided, but the unexpected occasionally happens, and you have then, of course, to bring in your Supplementary Estimate. It may be laid down as a sound principle that Supplementary Estimates are a test of the financial efficiency of any Government. We had a melancholy record last year. In the five months in which this House has been in Session, the net amount of the Supplementary Estimates up to date is £91,316,200. Of that amount, £62,000,000 has been laid before the Committee of Supply and awaits discussion. There are 14 Votes in these Supplementary Estimates, and eight of the subjects included have not yet been even indirectly discussed. With regard to six of them, I agree that there has been some discussion. For instance, Vote 15, Class VI (Agricultural Development Grant) has, I agree, received some discussion.
:I do not quite follow what the right hon. Gentleman is discussing. If he is discussing the number of days in Committee of Supply, that has already been decided by the House. If he is discussing the allocation of time within those days, then I do not think it is germane to the present Motion.
:My point is that these Supplementary Estimates fall outside the Supply days, and fall into the general work of the House. There is not sufficient time for the discussion of these Supplementary Estimates, amounting to £62,000,000, if the House closes down on the 19th or 26th August and a new Session starts again. I thoroughly appreciate that I must not go into them in detail, but I submit that I am entitled to point out how important it is that the Government should find time for the adequate discussion of this most important part of their financial commitments.
:I can only remind the right hon. Gentleman that the Standing Order says that Supply must be concluded by the 5th August.
:I thank you for that reminder. It adds point to the argument, which I will not develop any further, that when the Guillotine falls in Supply these 14 Votes, totalling £62,210,000, in all probability, will be granted without anything but the slightest discussion except after 11 o'clock at night. I want to ask my right hon. Friend what he is going to do about the discussion of these Supplementary Estimates. Is he going to take them after 11 o'clock at night? Can he give us any pledge with regard to that? Time and time again hon. Members, not only on these Benches but in other parts of the House, have urged that these most important matters should be taken at a fair time in the day, in order that Members may be able to apply themselves to them and do justice, however slight it might be, to their duties in this respect. I would ask my right hon. Friend what is his answer with regard to that?
My concluding point is that what my right hon. Friend is really asking for is a letter of licence to the Government for six months. What a position for this country, with its foreign commitments! We have already heard about Ireland, and there are Mesopotamia, Egypt, Upper Silesia, and the great question of disarmament which is to be discussed at Washington. All these questions, and many others, should not be completely in the hands of the Executive without any Parliamentary control or supervision. I am not going to be so foolish as to pretend that I look forward to an Autumn Session with any pleasure at all. I entirely agree with what my right hon. Friend has said as to that. The strain upon the House, and also upon Ministers, has been great, and there is something also to be said for the regular Opposition. Upon us has fallen a duty and burden which no Opposition in the long history of this House has ever borne before. We are just as worn out as any hon. Members are. We have no relief at all. Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen forming the Government can come in and do their turn, so to speak, and go out again; but we have to be on duty the whole time, and if anyone would welcome relief the Members of the Opposition would. What we feel is that, apart from that, there are public duties to be performed. I am not dividing the House into two parts—those who want to perform their duties and those who do not. It would be ridiculous to do that. I know the House too well to make such a charge as that, and I do not make it at all, but I do say that, in face of the world and the home situation, and of the clamant and urgent demands of financial control and proper, regulated, calm, judicial legislation, it is not in the interests of the public, or in the best interests of this House itself, that it should accede to the Motion of my right hon. Friend.
:I beg to move, to leave out the words "for the remainder of the Session," and to insert instead thereof the words "until the 31st day of August."
The speech of the Leader of the House is at least a reminder that Parliament learns nothing from experience, and every Session, as the House draws towards the close of its work, there must be a repetition of some such performance. I have been in the House for a few years, and I do not remember an instance where so far-reaching a statement was made in such terms of unconcern about what that statement means in relation to public business. The Session has had its experiences in relation to legislation which is absolutely worthless for any public purpose, as experience has already shown. The Reparation Act, upon which we spent a great deal of time, is absolutely without profit or public service. Surprise decisions have compelled us to deal with Bills relating to coal decontrol and to agricultural subjects. This Session to a very great extent has been a Session of waste of Parliamentary and public time, just as last Session was to a great extent a wasted period becasue of the insistence of the Government in forcing through this House a Measure to deal with the Irish question—a Measure which, again, time has shown was absolutely unwork- able and could not be applied to the problem. If Governments will insist upon the abuse of Parliamentary time in this manner in the middle and early period of the Session, then always, towards the end of the Session, we shall have a repetition of this state of helplessness to which Ministers are reduced in relation to public business. Strictly speaking, the Motion of the Leader of the House is just a Motion to suspend the Eleven o'clock Rule for the remainder of the Session, and on that subject the right hon. Gentleman thought fit to say nothing whatever. He said not a single word on the substance of the Motion upon which we are asked to give a vote. Therefore, I want to say one or two words on the Motion upon which we shall have to go into the Lobby, but first let me suggest seriously to my right hon. Friend—not for his own use during the course of this Session, but, perhaps, for the profit of his successors—that Ministers ought not to come forward in this way and put a Motion on the Paper in the forenoon, bringing forward a proposal about the details of which we heard nothing before in any form whatever, and reading out to us a lot of Bills.
:It is always done.
:I know that it is always done, but with age and experience we should learn something, and I am suggesting that that is not quite the way in which to treat even a numerically weak Opposition, or in which to treat even the larger following behind the right hon. Gentleman. What do we have? A rough classification of three sets of Bills. I cannot now remember them. I heard them read out rather rapidly, and they fell upon my ears and fell away as soon as I heard them. There are several Bills with which we have to proceed; there are several Bills which will have to be dropped; and there are several Bills in a third group which may be proceeded with if they are not resisted. We have had, however, no opportunity of having before us the substance and the names of those Bills, so as to be able to express some opinion upon that question of classification. I suggest that an Opposition has something to do with that side of Parliamentary business. For instance, I think I remember that the Licensing Bill—to which a whole Friday was given last week, and which passed its Second Reading in this House without any real opposition, although it was threatened with some—the Licensing Bill is put into the group to be taken after eleven o'clock, and passed into law if there be no substantial opposition. It is known that there are bodies of opinion represented in this House which are not altogether favourable to that Bill, and it would appear, therefore, that a Measure of that kind may have to be dropped, according to to-day's announcement and classification, if anyone thinks it worth while to persist in his resistance to the Bill after eleven o'clock at night. As to the Bill itself, it deals with licensing questions and with all matters relating to the conduct of public-houses, and these are things which can be settled only by arrangements of compromise emerging from conditions of conference. The Bill has come to us in that way, and I should hope that the Government would regard the decision of the House of Commons last Friday on this question as entitling the Bill to a classification rather different from that which I understand was given to it in this afternoon's announcement.
The Motion, as I have said, is one to suspend the Eleven o'Clock Rule for the remainder of the Session. The suspension of that Rule, even occasionally, is bad Parliamentary business. No good work can be done well after an exhausting day of public service, and particularly such days as have been spent by large numbers of hon. Members in continuous Committee work in the rooms upstairs. It certainly has not been fair to call upon Members to give so many hours each day, in addition to their ordinary private and personal preoccupations, and then to call upon them to sit after eleven o'clock at night and at least give the appearance of being interested in public business. It is a physical impossibility. If the spirit were willing the flesh would not be equal to the demand, and I object on every occasion to a suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule. I do that, I think, with some point, because there is the alternative of meeting earlier in the day instead of sitting later at night. The demand to sit later at night surely must rest on the assumption that Members can give the time for it. If not, there can be no point in the demand at all. If we can give a certain number of hours, short or long, for this public work, I suggest that the more fit and natural time in which to perform this Parliamentary work is earlier in the day, and not later at night. Why should not the House meet at twelve o'clock, if public business be so pressing and heavy and must be got through, on the lines of the right hon. Gentleman's statement, before the 26th August? Let him agree to ask the House to sit earlier in the day, and avoid some of those mock Sittings that take place after eleven o'clock at night. I think it is scandalous that questions involving millions and raising great issues should be treated as Members are compelled to treat them during the course of some of these late or all-night Sittings, and I press seriously the suggestion that, if a greater number of hours per day be required for this purpose, the House might meet earlier in the day, and not sit later at night as is now suggested. The Government side of the House has a very great physical advantage over the Members of the Opposition in regard to the Sittings of the House. I do not complain of the arrangements that they make; they are entitled to make them; but it is true that many individual Members can periodically be released from their personal service, because there is a sufficient Governmental following to make a Division safe on account of the large majority behind the present Government. We who suffer this disability of having a smaller number upon whom to rely, and cannot imitate the Government side in being able to release Members, are entitled to put forward the plea that we ought not to be obliged to remain after eleven o'clock, and that the House should be summoned earlier in the day for the purpose of discharging this public business.
There is one feature of the Motion to which I object upon technical grounds. It may not appear to be a strong point, but I want to submit it to the Leader of the House and to suggest an Amendment. It is that if this Motion be carried in the words now appearing on the Paper we would, in this month of July, be suspending the 11 o'clock Rule, which will operate in December.
:The right hon. Gentleman has not understood what I said. If the House is called upon to meet again in December in the manner I suggested, it will be called to meet for a new Session after a Prorogation, and the Resolution I move to-day would have no effect upon our sittings then.
:In view of that statement I think it would not apply, and I accept the statement that it was given in that form, though I did not take it in that form. But the technical objections to it remain. It is that if we accept the Motion in the terms upon the Paper it is presupposed that we accept the idea of there being no Autumn Session. We do not accept it, and there is something to be said, in face of the conditions in the country and in face of whatever may happen in relation to Ireland, for the idea of having an Autumn Session. I make no pretence of wanting an Autumn Session for Autumn Session's sake, so to speak, but I have been one of those who have had to sit through a long list of Autumn Sessions, which in the last ten or a dozen years have become the rule rather than the exception. That is all due to the fact that the volume of Parliamentary work has enormously increased. We cannot help it, and Autumn Sessions must be accepted now as the normal state of things. The immense increase in the number as well as the complexity and the character of public questions requiring that the attention of Parliament has totally changed the form of Parliamentary service and we cannot get through the work as Parliaments used to do 30 or 40 years ago, when there was a short session of five or six months and a long, safe interval without any fear of anything occurring at all. I look forward, I regret very much to say, with feelings of real apprehension to the state of things which will prevail in this country in the months, say, of December and January. The Minister of Labour has announced that there is a slight decline in the figures of unemployment, but he has indicated that there is no prospect of any substantial reduction. We cannot hope that earlier than September or October there will be any material reduction in the enormous number of people out of work. The benefit is reduced, the reserves are becoming exhausted, the privations are increasing, the necessities are being borne with a feeling of almost resignation, certainly with very great toleration. In London huge crowds are tramping to the workhouses asking for admission, and there are conflicts between them and the authorities, who, in the nature of things, are obliged to resist the attacks which are being made. All these are signs clearly showing that we may have extraordinary Parliamentary service to undertake in relation to the unemployed during the course of the latter part of the autumn. I should hope, therefore, that in face of this unusual industrial situation which we are certain to be faced with the right hon. Gentleman will think fit to revise his view and not press this Motion. There is a feeling in the House in favour of meeting earlier and not sitting later, and whatever his view may be we are entitled, before we take a vote on the Motion, to hear whether we cannot put an end to what has become almost a public scandal, the late and wasteful sittings of the House, when there is an opportunity to meet earlier and get through public business when we are in a better frame of mind to do it. Finally, I reject the view implied in the right hon. Gentleman's statement that the relation of this House of Commons to the Irish question is that of having to assent formally to whatever might privately be done by the Government and the Irish representatives with whom they are discussing the matter.
:That is not the claim I put forward. What I said was that, in the event of the negotiations being successful, I did not think it would be possible for them to be embodied in legislative form for the consideration of the House before December.
:I have in mind the right hon. Gentleman's statement on that point, but my view of it is that negotiations will proceed up to a point when they will be embodied in some kind of agreed settlement of terms between the two sides, and that finally this House of Commons will be called together for a formality. We shall not be in any sense consulted, as we might well be on so tremendous an issue, which has been in the public light for 40 years as a leading political theme and on which a bulky Bill passed through this House only last Session. We are to wait until there has been a settlement privately reached by those who are privately discussing the terms of the settlement, and then as a matter of Parliamentary form we should be told what the settlement was, a Bill would be framed, it would be put before us and we should loyally be expected to support the Government in whatever was being done. Again, that is not my view of taking a serious part in Parliamentary work. It is playing at Parliamentary business, and it is about time there was some revision of that sort of practice. There are good grounds for not accepting this Motion in the terms in which it is put before us, and there are even better grounds for asking serious consideration for the view that if we must do this work we should get through it by meeting earlier and not by being kept later.
:At Question Time I understood the right hon. Gentleman was going to refer to the opportunity to be given to discuss the question of women in the Civil Service, but he did not touch on it in his speech. Perhaps he will bear that in mind when he comes to reply.
:We shall have to dispose of the Amendment.
:Should I make such reply as I have been asked to make on the Amendment, or should I wait and speak again on the original question? As far as the Amendment is concerned, I have no objection.
:It would be best to amend the Motion, and then proceed with the question as before.
Amendment agreed to.
:I want to ask whether my right hon. Friend is going to give the promised day for the discussion of the Civil Service Regulations. As long ago as last November the then Leader of the House informed my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare) that a day would be set apart for discussing the Regulations for admitting women to the Civil Service. I have frequently asked for that day to be given, and I have asked as recently as this afternoon. Since my right hon. Friend has not mentioned the matter, I assume I am not going to1 get that day. If it is not given it will be a breach of a pledge about as plain as can be imagined. The pledge was entirely unconditional. It was given three months ago, and all that time we have been waiting on the pleasure of the Government. The coal strike and other serious matters have intervened, and when matters of such great moment as the coal strike and similar affairs have been on I have not been unduly pressing, but it is a very poor reward if, because I have not made myself a nuisance on all possible occasions, the day is to be refused. The question is a very big one. On these Regulations depend the admission of women to the Civil Service and the whole future of women in the great professions. I should like to take the House back to the whole story of this controversy. When the Sex Disqualification Act was passed a proviso was inserted which enabled the Government to regulate the admission of women, and that was to be done by Order in Council. At first it was agreed that the Order in Council should be discussed in this House. Subsequently that was changed, and last November a day was promised for the discussion of these Regulations, The promise was not given to me or to the House alone. It was welcomed by all the women's organisations. It is perfectly well known that the promise has been made, and if it is now broken it will have a most disastrous effect. Surely the Government cannot break such a plain promise as that in plain and unconditional terms. If they do they will have to do another thing which is also a breach of faith, because they have said they will not bring these Regulations into force until the discussion has taken place. Of course I have no power to move the Government. I can only ask once more, and I ask the House to back me up in this, for it is a promise which was made to the whole House and the credit of the whole House is at stake, and I hope they will support the demand I now make.
5.0 P.M.
:With respect to the remaining days of Supply, may we feel assured that the Navy Votes, 8, 9, and 12 will be given a whole day for discussion? Are we going to hear anything about the Imperial Conference before Parliament is prorogued, because that has a large bearing upon Vote 8?
:I want to ask two questions. The first question is in regard to the Supplementary Estimates. It has been suggested that we cannot have a discussion on these Supplementary Estimates, because the allotted days are nearing their end, and the Supplementary Estimates cannot be taken on any other day. The number of allotted days in no way prevents time being given for these Supplementary Estimates, because Standing Order 15, which lays it down that there shall be 20 ordinary days and three extra days for Supply, says:
The second question relates to the growing habit in recent years, in this period of the Session, of taking all the stages of a Bill at one sitting. I do not know whether the Leader of the House is aware that last Session, and the Session before, this mal-practice assumed very grave proportions. Representations were made to the Leader of the House at that time and the Patronage Secretary of that day, and it was suggested that if in any emergency it was necessary to take more than one stage of a Bill on a single night Mr. Speaker should make some arrangements for marking it on the Order Paper, so that those interested should know that that was the only opportunity of discussing the matter. The new Leader of the House and the new Patronage Secretary may avoid these evil habits, and I do appeal to them not to repeat the practice. It has been done over and over again, when a Bill of no great importance has been brought in at 1 a.m. and the Second Reading has been taken, and the Committee stage also, because no one has had time to give notice of Amendments, which are not eligible for the Order Paper until after Second Reading. Then the Third Reading has been taken immediately. That is an abuse of Parliamentary practice, and I hope we shall not have a repetition of it this Session. If in any emergency such a course is found necessary, I hope Mr. Speaker will find some means of indicating it on the Order Paper, so that hon. Members may know in good time that the ordinary guarantees for proper Parliamentary consideration are being abrogated, and that the Bill is to be rushed through all its stages in the early morning hours.
:May I point out the extraordinary position into which we have been landed in regard to the allocation of time? There has never been an occasion when such drastic changes have been made in regard to the Army, and when the most unprecedented sums have been spent in time of peace, and yet, so far as my Parliamentary recollection goes, in the last 20 years there has never been so little time given for discussion. That is not right. It is not right that we should be committed to vital changes, such as the disbandment of units, which cannot be replaced except after a long period of time, without adequate discussion. I enter my protest, and I say that time should be given for the views of Members to be expressed on these vital questions involving great questions of policy and involving expenditure of unprecedentedly large sums of money.
:May I remind the Leader of the House of another feature of the pledge which was given to me in regard to a Debate on the admission of women to the Civil Service? The suggestion was made two or three weeks ago that it would be sufficient if we raised the question upon one of the Supply Votes, for instance, the Treasury Vote. Another suggestion has been made that it might be raised on the Appropria- tion Bill. Although we realise the difficulty of the Government in the allocation of time, we cannot think that that suggestion is sufficient, because the pledge given to me by the former Leader of the House in the autumn—a pledge that has been repeated in principle on several occasions—was that we should have an opportunity not only of discussing the Civil Service Regulations but of amending them. The right hon. Gentleman will see at once that if the question was simply raised upon the Appropriation Bill or upon the Treasury Vote there would be no opportunity for the hon. Member for Durham (Major Hills) and myself and other hon. Members who are interested in the question, to move Amendments. I cannot believe that the Leader of the House is going to break a pledge given by his predecessor and himself. He always keeps his pledges, and I am sure that he will say that he will give us this opportunity for discussing this matter which has been promised on so many different occasions.
Would the Leader of the House give us a few more details as to when he intends to take the Supplementary Estimates? There is a great deal in what my hon. Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Guinness) said about taking these Estimates late at night. I hope the Leader of the House will be able to tell us that the new services will be taken at a reasonable hour of the day. Will he also say whether it is intended to put the Supplementary Estimates into the Votes that are to be taken on the evenings of the 3rd and 4th August? If that is the case, I do not see how the Supplementary Estimates can be discussed at all.
:I hope the Leader of the House will see his way to do something in regard to the question of women and the Civil Service. This question is exciting a great deal of interest amongst women throughout the country, and it is one on which they feel that they have not been treated quite fairly. I will not go into the merits of the question, but they feel that they have been, to some extent, treated with some injustice. Unless this House is afforded an opportunity for correcting that injustice, if it can be shown to exist, it is not given an opportunity for dealing with the question at all. A mere vague discussion in the air does not help very much, particularly if it takes place at a very late period of the Session.
I should like to say something in support of what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Lieut.-Colonel Guinness) with respect to taking all the stages of a Bill at one time. That is a new practice which began during the War and was justified on the ground of great and urgent public necessity. I do not know how the Rules of the House exactly stand in regard to that. I always understood that we could not take the Committee stage immediately after the Second Reading without general consent, and that if there was any substantial opposition it ought not to be taken. During the War we always acted on that theory, and a Minister who was getting a Bill through in one day always made it clear that he would not press it if there was anything like serious opposition to taking the various stages on the one day. It is a very dangerous practice to apply that war system to peace conditions, and to allow it to be gradually crystallised as part of the procedure of the House, and that whenever a Minister late at night thinks it is a good opportunity to get through a Departmental Bill he should ask the House to take all the stages at the one time. I hope this House will insist that such departures from the ordinary practices of the House should never take place unless there is universal consent, and even that should not be asked for unless there is real, urgent, public necessity for its being done.
I come to the broad question whether it is or is not desirable to have an Autumn Session. I associate myself with a great deal of what the Leader of the House said on the subject of Autumn Sessions. I recognise that there are great advantages in giving the Government plenty of time to consider its legislation during the autumn, before it presents it to Parliament in the spring. I have some sympathy with the heart cry that came from one of the Members of the Government in defending, I think it was, their agricultural policy, when he said that the Agriculture Act of 1920 had been presented without due consideration, and that that was the reason why we had to repeal it in 1921. I am afraid that we shall occupy a good deal of next Session in repealing what we have done this Session, and perhaps we could not occupy it more usefully. Though I assent to the general proposition that it is undesirable to have an Autumn Session, there are some very special circumstances about this year. In the first place, there is Ireland. I am not going to say a word about the negotiations naturally, but either they must result in success, in which case admittedly we shall have to meet in the autumn either for an adjourned Session or a new Session, or they will result in failure, which I do not want to anticipate, and in such a serious state of things as would arise, in my judgment it would be very difficult to avoid a meeting of Parliament to consider the situation. It seems to me, therefore, likely that Ireland will compel a Session—my right hon. Friend says in the winter, that is to say, in December, but at any rate sometime before Christmas. He thinks that can put it off until December if negotiations result in agreement. None of us know what has been proposed, but if the Government are fortunate enough to obtain agreement it will be of the greatest possible importance to put through that agreement without delay, and delay to December seems to me a very hazardous course. However, that is for the Government to judge. In any case it seems to me that you will have to meet at some time, either in November or the beginning of December, and there is a great deal to be said, therefore, for meeting a fortnight or three weeks earlier than that date and adjourning earlier now.
That is not the only question. I do feel tremendously the extremely serious financial position. I believe it to be very serious. I believe it to be likely to become increasingly serious. I think that it will turn out in all probability to be necessary for the Government to come to the House of Commons to lay before the House the financial situation and to take the House into counsel. I do not say that it may not be possible for them to avoid doing so, but if the situation is really serious I think it will be a very silly thing if the Government do not take the House of Commons into their confidence at the earliest possible moment. There is this further consideration. If the House meets in October or November it will be able to make representations of a very urgent character—supposing I am right in assuming that the situation is likely by that time to become more serious—to the Government as to the framing of their Estimates. It is com- mon knowledge, everyone who has read political memoirs knows, that in those months the Estimates for the coming year are framed, I do not say finally, but they are discussed. The probability is that the Cabinet will be divided—it usually is—into two sections, the more economical and the less economical. The more economical will want the support of the House of Commons in order to get their view established against the less economical, and I think it of great public importance that, while the Estimates are being framed in the autumn, this House should be in Session in order to express what I believe to be the overwhelming feeling in the country that drastic economies, even at great cost, should be carried through. That seems to me to be another reason why the Government would do well to consider their decision as to an Autumn Session.
Is not the difficulty pointed out by my hon. Friend opposite with regard to Supplementary Estimates an illustration of the difficulty in which we are placed by this decision of the Government? If they are going to wind up the business of the Session before they adjourn, evidently they will be compelled to cut short discussion on everything as much as they can. My hon. Friend pointed out that the Supplementary Estimates are not within the regular Supply days, and we might have a real discussion, on some of those Estimates, upon things which we have not considered at all, and some of which have not been before the House. The Government policy is carried through practically without discussion on Supplementary Estimates. My hon. Friend made an appeal that discussion on them should be taken before 11 o'clock. But is that a practical proposal? We know that they will be taken after 11 o'clock in all probability. It would be impossible for the Government, without putting off matters of great importance to the country, to accede to that request.
Although late sittings involve a great inconvenience to many of us, I cannot think that it is really the duty of the Government to hurry up the remainder of the Session as quickly as they can and get away and not meet here in the autumn when the business can be discussed in an adequate and dignified way. My right hon. Friend held out the hope that we might have a new Session beginning 1st December if we had to meet in the autumn at all. I should have regarded this proposal with a little more favour if he had indicated that he thought that it was a desirable step, generally speaking. I should be glad to see Parliament always meet in the first week in December and sitting right through until the end of July. But there is no proposal for a change of that kind. My right hon. Friend is not in favour of any drastic innovations. As will be seen by the form of the Resolution itself this is what is always done at this time of the Session and my right hon. Friend's speech is a very good example of a speech by a Leader of the House. It is exactly the same speech that the Leader of the House always makes. I do not mean to be offensive, but there is no great opportunity if you adopt that policy for originality of oratory.
I regard the practice, which has grown up, of late Sittings at the end of the Session as very bad. I have always been a bitter opponent of late Sittings. I would even prefer the Guillotine to all-night Sittings. I believe all-night Sittings to be utterly inconsistent with the proper transaction of business. They deliver the House over completely to the Government of the day, criticism becomes futile, and whatever you may say as to past times when Pitt and Fox made orations to the rising sun, I am satisfied that in modern conditions there is a great waste of time in all-night Sittings. I am entirely in sympathy with the argument of my right hon. Friend the Member for Miles Platting (Mr. Clynes) that if the Government really desire to get a few extra hours of Parliamentary time every day, the proper course is not to sit later but to meet earlier. I know that that would be inconvenient to many Members of this House, but there is a great deal to be said for it. There are various technical considerations which make late Sittings not so useful as they used to be. But apart from that is the simple broad proposition that the House of Commons is a serious place engaged in the most important public work in the country, that the Members of the House ought to be at their best in order to transact that work, and that nobody is at his best, or very few people are, late at night. The right time to do work of that kind is clearly during daylight hours.
I would desire to move to omit the words providing for the late Sittings, and, if it be in order, to substitute for them words enabling the House to sit earlier. I would propose to omit the words from "except" down to the word "opposed," and, if it be in order, to insert the words, "for the remainder of the Session the House do meet at twelve o'clock on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays." If it be not in order to move the insertion of these words, I would desire to move the excision of the words providing for the suspension of the Eleven o'clock Rule. If it is carried, then it would be easy for the Government on a future day to move that this House do meet at twelve o'clock on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays. I would like to know if I can move the Amendment which I have indicated.
:The difficulty about doing what the Noble Lord suggests is, in the first place, that we have already amended the Resolution down to a word which comes in further on than the word "except," on the Motion of the right hon. Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes), and we cannot go back on that. There is, in the second place, a greater objection. A Motion to alter the hours of the meeting of the House is a new matter, of which notice ought to be given I cannot take that as a Motion relevant to this discussion. With regard to the omission of the proposed words, I would like to hear from the Noble Lord how the Motion would read.
:"That for the remainder of the Session the House do meet at twelve o'clock on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays, and that," and so on down to the end.
:That is clearly a separate Resolution.
:On a point of Order. The ruling which you have just given as I understand is that, on a Motion such as that which we are now discussing, it is not in order to move an Amendment to it which affects the Sittings of the House as regulated by Standing Order, unless notice is given of it.
:The Chair has to decide actually the magnitude of the question of which notice should be given. What I said was that I do not consider that an Amendment reviewing the whole of the Standing Order with regard to meetings of the House is relevant to this Motion.
:I submit that by the Motion now on the Paper special notice has been given which would justify an Amendment substantially the same as that suggested by the Noble Lord. The Motion on the Paper does affect the Standing Orders of the House in relation to the Sittings of the House, and therefore sufficient notice has been given to you to justify your accepting some such Amendment as that indicated. A Motion such as this, if the House could not amend it, would gravely restrict the liberties of the House. The Chair has always allowed Amendments to a Motion of this kind. I agree that if the Amendment went so far as to be a direct negative, the case would be different. I have had occasion to read the rulings of the House from the Chair, and I have always taken the rulings to mean that Amendments such as that suggested, if within the ambit of the general Resolution, have invariably been admitted by the Chair.
:If the right hon. Gentleman confined himself to the last phrase, "within the ambit of the Resolution," I could agree with him. The Amendment of the Noble Lord is quite apart from that.
:If I had put my suggested Amendment on the Paper, would it have been in order? It is a matter of some importance to private Members of this House that they should be put into the position of having to accept a Government proposal for enlarging the Sittings of the House without being able to propose any Amendment.
:I do not think so. The matter raised by the Noble Lord must be brought forward in a Resolution of his own. That has always been so.
:I wish to raise a point which, so far as I am aware, has not been raised hitherto in the Debate. I understand that the Government intend to bring the Session to an end about the 19th or 26th August. If that is done, what will be the position in regard to the Safeguarding of Industries Bill? It is a Bill which conceivably may be a money Bill under the Parliament Act. The Act says that a money Bill is a Bill which deals with the im- position, repeal, remission, alteration, or regulation of taxation. It is possible that when the Bill has been amended, Mr. Speaker may judge that it deserves the certificate which he is empowered to give under the Act. In that case the sole right to deal with it and amend it should reside in this House. If we desire it, it is our privilege to retain within our own hands the sole right to deal with that Bill, but under the Parliament Act, if we desire to retain that privilege, we must send the Bill to the other House one month before the end of the Session. That is laid down in Section 1 of the Parliament Act. I submit, therefore, that in announcing here that the Government intend to prorogue the House on 26th August, and to send to the other House the Safeguarding of Industries Bill, the Government are giving notice to the other House that this House does not intend to insist on the powers conferred on this House under the Parliament Act, and that the other House is therefore at liberty to amend the Safeguarding of Industries Bill as it thinks well. Large sections of the Bill have never been discussed in this House. I do not know whether the Leader of the House has considered the point, but if he persists in the determination to end the Session on 26th August, and thereby to waive the right of this House to pass the Safeguarding of Industries Bill as a money Bill, it may well be that we would find the Bill thoroughly discussed in another place, that Amendments would have to be reconsidered in this House, and that instead of saving time we should lose it.
:I do not think I can usefully pursue a hypothetical question dependent upon a certificate which it is within the discretion of the Chair to give or to withhold, and as to which I have no more information regarding the course the Chair is likely to pursue than has any other hon. Member. Should a money Bill go up to the other House less than a month before the end of the Session, I can conceive the position to be that the other House has a right to reject it, but I should doubt whether they have the right to amend it.
:It says "amend" in the Act.
:In any case that would not affect the course which the Government propose to, pursue. There have been put to me two or three questions to which I ought to give a reply, apart from the wider considerations of policy and Parliamentary procedure.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) asked about the Guardianship of Infants Bill. That is not a Government Measure, and I could not ask the House, even if complete agreement were reached, to sit extra hours, in order to take up a private Member's Bill when I am already obliged to ask them to sit extra hours in order to finish the essential Government business.
Then there is the question raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Durham (Major Hills) and other hon. Members, as to the discussion of the regulations affecting the entry and employment of women in the Civil Service. I gladly acknowledge the forbearance which my hon. Friends have shown in not pressing for earlier discussion. I am most anxious to give them an opportunity of the character they want. I had hoped that the discussion upon the Treasury Vote would have met their wishes, but they have made it clear that a discussion in Supply would not enable them to do what they want, and I am anxious to find them an opportunity of the kind they seek. I cannot possibly do that until we have got some of these Measures up to another House. If, while the other House is considering these Measures, I can find an opportunity for the discussion desired, I shall be very glad to do so.
:I understand that that is only a conditional promise. I have no power to press the matter further, but I wish to say that it will have a very serious effect on the opinion of the women concerned if they are told that the promise is to be fulfilled only conditionally. I do not believe my right hon. Friend means to break his promise. I am certain he does not. Would it not be best for him to say so now, and to state that a date will be given before the House rises in August?
:My hon. and gallant Friend does not state the facts. What he is asking me to do is to carry out an undertaking given by my predecessor, at an early stage of the Session under totally different circumstances, and before my right hon. Friend (Mr. Bonar Law) could foresee what the course of the Session would be. I am very jealous about keeping pledges of that kind, whether given by my predecessor or by myself. I will do my best, but I do not think I should help matters by going beyond what I have just said. My hon. and gallant Friend shakes his head. I will not, therefore, offer him any further assurance that he does not want.
:I do not want my right hon. Friend to pursue that argument any further. I want only to tell him and the House generally, and my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Labour party agrees, that if there is anything we can do to assist in bringing this discussion on the Floor of the House as suggested, we shall be very glad to do it.
:I am greatly obliged. I think that will make my task much easier. I will do my utmost to get such a discussion to arrange it with the assistance that my right hon. Friend has kindly promised. I have been asked for some kind of assurance that we would not try to get all the stages or several stages of a Bill on a particular night without general assent. I can give that assurance, but let me say that, when speaking of general assent, hon. Members must allow a reasonable interpretation of the words. It must not mean that a single Member can frustrate the course on which the great mass of Members are agreed, although even where a single Member feels a very strong objection we shall meet him if we can.
On the wider questions, I gather that the views expressed by those who are opposing the Motion are substantially two-fold. They believe that, in any circumstances, an Autumn Session cannot and ought not to be avoided, and, in the second place, they believe that if we make up our minds to have an Autumn Session, we can greatly shorten our proceedings at this moment. In my opening speech I gave my reasons for holding an opposite view on both points. It seems to me that the opposition is founded upon a double fallacy—that you will get present relief by the course suggested, and that you cannot avoid the future burden of an Autumn Session. I believe that you cannot get present relief in any substantial form, and I hope and believe that you can avoid the burden of an Autumn Session.
I will say a word or two about the discussion of Estimates. I am an old enough Member of the House—and this discussion has made me feel how old a Member I am—to remember the time when there were no allotted days for Supply at all. My Noble Friend the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) speaks as though all-night sittings were a modern invention, something which had been known in the days of Mr. Fox and Mr. Pitt, but which were unknown to any living Member of Parliament until this Government, to which so many of the evils from which humanity suffers are due.
:Hear, hear!
:I am glad to see that I exactly express the views of the Noble Lord. What happened before we had Supply days? Supply was never taken until the month of August, and then when every Member was more or less anxious to get away, the House was kept sitting day after day without limitation of hours until the Opposition, whatever it was, was wearied into passing the Vote. The introduction of the allotted days gave to the House earlier, more regular, and better opportunities of discussing Estimates than it had enjoyed within the memory of men now living.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Peebles talks about the number of millions that have to be voted on the last days of Supply. I have heard many Members of Oppositions talk in that way, though I do not think I have ever been guilty of it myself. Just see how misleading it is. In the first place, as the House knows, it is the critics of the Government, it is those in Opposition, who in the main, if not almost entirely, decide what Votes shall be discussed. In the second place, again and again, my colleagues and I have refrained from pressing for a Vote to be taken at the conclusion of the discussion, in order that, if the House desired to refer to some of the subjects concerned later on in the Session, the Vote should still be open. It is not the amount which is undiscussed, it is a very different thing. Take, for instance, the new services to which reference has been made. A very important new service has been the subject of prolonged discussion. A great amount of the money in new services and in the Supplementary Estimates is in pursuance of policies embodied in legislation. Some of them may be new services technically, but to describe them as novel, as unexplored, as undiscussed, or even as unapproved of by the House of Commons is to completely misrepresent the real facts of the case. Out of the £62,000,000 £59,000,000 have been subject to discussion in the House already.
:Eight Votes out of 18.
:What is the good of talking of eight out of 18 Votes, when the fact is that £59,000,000 out of the £62,000,000 have been discussed? My right hon. Friend deals with millions when it suits his argument, but abandons them when they fail him. He should be a little more consistent.
:Your own argument is inconsistent.
:No, Sir, my argument is consistent if the hon. and gallant Member will do me the honour of listening to it.
:The right hon. Gentleman has not answered one question which I asked him very directly, and that is whether he will undertake not to start these Supplementary Estimates after 11 o'clock at night.
:I am just coming to that. What we have to do with Supplementary Estimates this year is to follow the precedent of past years, and take these Supplementaries on the conclusion of the various Votes of Supply, in order that we my finish Supply within the statutory period. I think, in these circumstances, they will pass without discussion. As I have already pointed out, £59,000,000 out of the £62,000,000 have already been amply discussed, and the policy which they embody has received the approval of the House.
I do not know whether I ought to deal with the subject raised by the right hon. Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes). It was sought to put it in an Amendment by the Noble Lord, but you, Mr. Speaker, have ruled the Amendment out or Order. In any case, I do not know that it is necessary for me to deal with it at this stage.
I will add one more sentence, and it is in relation to the wider argument which has been used. I think it was my Noble Friend the Member for Hitchin (Lord E. Cecil) who said he would rather like meeting before Christmas, and, as an habitual rule, beginning the Session in December and ending it in July. If he or anybody else will give the Government an assurance that by beginning the Session earlier you would finish it earlier, I think you would make a good many converts. But, upon the whole, I am rather driven to the conclusion that an extension of weeks at the beginning of a Session, or of hours at the beginning of a day, does not mean that the business will be concluded when the normal period for ending arrives. I should be sorry to make an extension in either case, without attaining the result which is the only reason for which I have put down the Motion. I hope I have now dealt with all questions raised by hon. Members on this matter.
:In regard to the Government of Burma Bill, my right hon. Friend suggested in his opening speech, that it might be passed, or that if it were not passed, the object could be attained by another means, such as by Proclamation. I would earnestly appeal to him to consider this matter. The Government of Burma Bill was introduced in another place, and was sent to the Standing Joint Committee of both Houses. Very important telegrams have passed between the India Office and the Viceroy in regard to it, and an agreement has been arrived at in the Joint Committee. It would be a thousand pities, if a matter of such importance as the promulgation of a new constitution for one of our great Dependencies, should have to be done by Proclamation and not by Parliament, which is the fount of all new constitutions in the Empire. I think there will be no opposition to it. Certainly, so far as those of all shades of opinion on the Joint Committee is concerned, there was no opposition from any of them, and I think the Bill will pass practically sub silentio. It would be very much better that such a Bill should be passed by Parliament instead of having its object attained in any other way.
:May I also ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will let us have a definite reply as to Votes 8, 9, and 12 of the Navy Estimates, and also as to whether the House is to hear anything about the Imperial Conference before it rises?
:In regard to the last question, I announced yesterday that these Votes would be taken on Wednesday.
:The outstanding Votes?
:Yes, the outstanding Naval Votes. How many of them are discussed depends on the course of the discussion. As regards the Burma Bill, I should like to see it go through. But it was put into the category of those Measures which we cannot say are absolutely necessary. If the circumstances be as indicated by my right hon. Friend, as I believe them to be, this is a Bill which the House would desire to go through, and which will go through with general consent. I wish to explain that I did not put it in the category of essential Measures, because no legislative authority is required for the purpose of the Bill. The object which the Secretary of State had in introducing the Bill was not to secure any authority which he had not already got; but it was introduced and sent to a Standing Joint Committee of the two Houses to consider and approve of the policy which he proposes to carry out. I believe that disposes of all the questions which have been put.
:What about the Imperial Conference?
:I really cannot make a further statement about the Imperial Conference beyond those which have already been made in answer to questions in the House. I would appeal to the House to bring this Motion to an issue as soon as they can, and I make that appeal on the ground that the Treasury Vote has been put down to-day, in order that there may be discussion on another matter which, as has been shown at Question time, is exciting great interest, and I shall be glad if the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement can be made at an early hour. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) asked me what business would be taken after eleven o'clock, and the reply is, the Lords Amendments to Police Pensions Bill, and, if there be time, the Admiralty Pensions Bill.
6.0 P.M.
:There is a comment which has not yet been made, and which I think should be made on this occasion. I have not been very long a Member of the House—not as long as many other Members—but I have had 11 years' experience, and during all those 11 years this congestion of the business of the House has been growing steadily worse and worse. Whether we have an, Autumn Session or not this year, this Session will always remain in my memory as one of the most intolerable and overpowering Sessions I have ever experienced. We can measure this congestion in two ways, quantitatively and qualitatively. From the point of view of time, there is no time at all for a vast number of the Measures which are necessary, and for the legislation which is passed far too little time is given. These Measures crowd and jostle against one another and are passed through without any adequate consideration. In the second place, while 11 years ago I found it possible, with difficulty, to obtain some kind of grasp of the broad nature of the business before the House, one has got to confess that at the present time, however diligent and laborious a Member may be, however great his power for work, it is impossible for him to obtain even a general grasp of the multiplicity of Measures which come before the House. Sometimes I am tempted to doubt whether even a Member of the industry and ability of the hon. Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) has fully grasped the vast number of Measures upon which he speaks. The result of all this is that an inadequate amount of legislation is passed, and even that inadequate amount is ill-considered. Ministers, officials of public Departments concerned with the work of the House, and the Private Members themselves are fagged and overworked, and are not able to give to these Measures the consideration which they
desire. That is the real reason why the House is losing control over the Parliamentary machine, over business and over expenditure. A House of fagged and overworked men, a House congested with business, is unable to exercise full control. The House lumbers on like some great machine lumbering on from its own impetus. It is like a motor omnibus which has broken loose, over which the driver is not able to exercise control. We observe this getting steadily worse and worse every step. What is being done to prevent it? This annual slaughter of the innocents, as it is called, does not touch the heart of the business. The harm has all been done in the previous part of the Session, when we have been passing legislation which we have to repeal afterwards. There is only one real remedy for this state of affairs.
:Home Rule for Scotland.
:And Home Rule for England. Is there any reason why England should not have Home Rule and efficient legislation passed by a House which is able to afford an adequate amount of time to the legislation that is before it? There is only one means of securing an efficient Parliamentary machine, of restoring confidence in the country, and of clearing Parliament and Parliamentary institutions in general from the universal disrepute into which they are falling throughout the country, and that is by means of some measure of devolution.
:That is quite beyond the scope of the present discussion.
:I do not propose by any means to enter upon any general discussion of the question of devolution, but the remedy which the Government now propose, and which is an annual remedy, is no real remedy for a situation which is getting worse and worse, and if they wish to put Parliament on a proper footing, they must look elsewhere for the remedy.
Main Question, as amended, put.
The House divided: Ayes, 277; Noes, 64.
Division No. 288.] AYES. [6.4 p.m. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Barlow, Sir Montague Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Armstrong, Henry Bruce Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Barnett, Major Richard W. Atkey, A. R. Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Barnston, Major Harry Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Barrand, A. R. Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff) Greenwood, William (Stockport) Murray, William (Dumfries) Beauchamp, Sir Edward Greer, Harry Neal, Arthur Beckett, Hon. Gervase Greig, Colonel Sir James William Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E. Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark Bigland, Alfred Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Parker, James Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Hancock, John George Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Blades, Sir George Rowland Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Pearce, Sir William Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Harris, Sir Henry Percy Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Breese, Major Charles E. Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Perkins, Walter Frank Brittain, Sir Harry Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Pilditch, Sir Philip Broad, Thomas Tucker Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Brown, Major D. C. Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil) Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Bruton, Sir James Hinds, John Pratt, John William Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Purchase, H. G. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Raeburn, Sir William H. Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Rankin, Captain James Stuart Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's) Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington) Raper, A. Baldwin Butcher, Sir John George Hopkins, John W. W. Ratcliffe, Henry Butler Carew, Charles Robert S. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N. Casey, T. W. Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Remnant, Sir James Cautley, Henry Strother Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Hunter-Weston, Lt.-General Sir A. G. Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Hurd, Percy A. Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Churchman, Sir Arthur Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Rodger, A. K. Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Coats, Sir Stuart Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Rutherford, Colonel Sir J. (Darwen) Cobb, Sir Cyril James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill) Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Jameson, John Gordon Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Cohen, Major J. Brunel Jephcott, A. R. Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Norwood) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Jesson, C. Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Johnstone, Joseph Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Conway, Sir W. Martin Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Cory, Sir C. J. (Cornwall, St. Ives) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Scott, Leslie (Liverpool Exchange) Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Seager, Sir William Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Seddon, J. A. Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.) Kellaway, Rt. Hon Fredk. George Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Kenyon, Barnet Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry King, Captain Henry Douglas Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Curzon, Captain Viscount Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Stanier, Captain Sir Beville Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Lane-Fox, G. R. Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Stanton, Charles Butt Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Starkey, Captain John Ralph Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Dawes, James Arthur Lindsay, William Arthur Stewart, Gershom Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Lloyd, George Butler Sturrock, J. Leng Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Doyle, N. Grattan Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Sugden, W. H. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Edge, Captain William Lorden, John William Sutherland, Sir William Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath) Lowe, Sir Francis William Taylor, J. Elveden, Viscount Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith) Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham) Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith M'Connell, Thomas Edward Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Evans, Ernest M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P. Thorpe, Captain John Henry Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray Tickler, Thomas George Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Townley, Maximilian G. Fell, Sir Arthur M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Tryon, Major George Clement FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Waddington, R. Flannery, Sir James Fortescue Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Wallace, J. Ford, Patrick Johnston Macquisten, F. A. Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley) Foreman, Sir Henry Magnus, Sir Philip Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Forestier-Walker, L. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Forrest, Walter Mallaby-Deeley, Harry Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Mallalieu, Frederick William Whitla, Sir William France, Gerald Ashburner Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Williams, C. (Tavistock) Fraser, Major Sir Keith Marriott, John Arthur Ransome Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.) Gange, E. Stanley Matthews, David Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Ganzoni, Sir John Middlebrook, Sir William Wilson, Capt. A. S. (Holderness) Gardner, Ernest Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B. Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir M. (Bethnal Gn.) Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Mitchell, Sir William Lane Wilson-Fox, Henry Gilbert, James Daniel Molson, Major John Elsdale Winfrey, Sir Richard Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Wise, Frederick Glyn, Major Ralph Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Wolmer, Viscount Goff, Sir R. Park Moreing, Captain Algernon H Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Grant, James Augustus Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Woolcock, William James U. Green, Albert (Derby) Morris, Richard Worsfold, T. Cato Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Morrison, Hugh Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox) Yeo, Sir Alfred William
Young, E. H. (Norwich) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Younger, Sir George Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D. Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Halls, Walter Rendall, Athelstan Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) Hirst, G. H. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hogge, James Myles Rose, Frank H. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Holmes, J. Stanley Royce, William Stapleton Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Irving, Dan Spoor, B. G. Briant, Frank John, William (Rhondda, West) Swan, J. E. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Cairns, John Kennedy, Thomas Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) Cape, Thomas Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Waterson, A. E. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Kiley, James Daniel White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lawson, John James Wignall, James Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Lunn, William Wilkie, Alexander Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Davies, Major D. (Montgomery) Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Wilson, James (Dudley) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelity) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) Entwistle, Major C. F. Mills, John Edmund Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Galbraith, Samuel Mosley, Oswald Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Gillis, William Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Myers, Thomas TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) O'Connor, Thomas P. Colonel Penry Williams and Major Grundy, T. W. O'Grady, James Watts Morgan. Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth) Raffan, Peter Wilson
Ordered,
"That, except on Fridays, Government Business until the 31st day of August be not interrupted under the provisions of any Standing Order regulating the Sittings of the House, and may he entered upon at any hour, although opposed, and that at the conclusion of Government Business each day, or of Proceedings made in pursuance of any Act of Parliament requiring any Order, Rule, or Regulation to he laid before the House of Commons, which shall be taken immediately after Government Business, Mr. Speaker do adjourn the House without Question put."
Orders of the Day
Supply
[NINETEENTH ALLOTTED DAY.]
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
CIVIL SERVICES ESTIMATES, 1921–1922. [Progress.]
Class II
Treasury and Subordinate Departments
Motion made and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £235,388, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for the Salaries and other Expenses in the Department of His Majesty's Treasury and Subordinate Departments."—[ Note. —£150,000 has been voted on account. ]
:I think I promised on some previous occasion that when this Vote came under discussion I should take the opportunity of saying something with regard to the Civil Service. There has been, both in public speeches and in the Press, a considerable canvassing of matters connected with the Civil Service in recent weeks, but some of the criticism which has been indulged in has been of a very uninformed character, some of it has been stupid and some of it has been, I regret to say, scurrilous. I, accordingly, welcome this opportunity of saying something in regard to a Service which has been unjustly attacked. The lucubrations to which I have referred have been received with resentment by the great Service, of which I am, at the present moment, the Ministerial head. The resentment has not been unnatural. The language used has been most unjustifiable in many cases. After all, we in this country have the finest Civil Service in the world, imbued with the highest traditions, conduct and honour, animated by an incomparable spirit of responsibility and duty. When one talks of the British Civil Service, one always knows that one is speaking of something of which, whatever is said, the nation is really proud, and which is held in high admiration in every part of the civilised world.
What are, in general, the comments which at the present time are being made on the Civil Service? So far as I can see, they have taken three different lines. One of the categories of criticism has been to denounce the high salaries which are paid in the Civil Service, and to say that those salaries are not earned. Another line of attack has been to assert that the Civil Service is to-day much over-manned, and that in many cases two men are doing the work of one. In the third place, it is asserted that the Civil Service is to-day battening upon bonuses which are not being earned, and which ought to be taken away. I should like, with the acquiescence of the Committee, to say something about each of these three matters. In the first place, with regard to the allegation that the salaries which are paid at the top of the Civil Service are too high, I hope the Committee will keep in mind what the responsibilities and duties are of that branch of our Civil Service. It is not too much to say that they have anxieties and responsibilities quite as great as those which attend the duties of the manager of any of the big undertakings of this country. They have to bear a very great share of responsibility. They have to come to the most anxious decisions; and, in fine, it is upon this foundation that the great pillar of the British system of administration rests. The salaries which these men to-day are drawing were fixed at £3,000 a year in recent times, after investigation by a Committee. Before I say anything as to the Committee's decision, I should like to ask the business men in this House, who know what kind of salaries they are paying in their own industries, whether there is a single business man of large experience to-day who regards £3,000 a year as too high a salary to be paid to a man with all the duties and responsibilities of managing a great Government Department? I am sure there is not a single man who knows the kind of salaries being paid in the country to-day who will assert to the contrary. The right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) raises an objection, but I know he would object to almost everything at some stage or another. But let me take an example from a business in which he is himself very largely interested. Let me take the salary of the general manager of a railway company to-day. Some of them are getting salaries, as my right hon. Friend knows, immensely in excess of anything paid to a civil servant; in fact, the average salary of general managers of railway companies to-day is £5,700 a year. If you take the general managers of banks, the average salary to-day is £7,200.
:That is only taking five or six of the big banks who have amalgamated during the last five or six years.
:It is taking more than that. It is taking a business which is comparable with a great Government Department. Of course, I know the right hon. Baronet is not a very good witness upon this matter. I was startled to see a question which he put to a representative of the Treasury, in which he suggested that the Treasury officials mainly come down to the office at about 11 and leave at 5, and generally idle through the day. That was the character of the question he put.
:No.
:I can get the question. If the right hon. Gentleman starts on that kind of assumption, of course everything he has to say on the subject is negative, because if there be any people to-day in this country who work hard, and have worked hard, so far as I have any experience, it has been the civil servants in the higher division. The hours which they work are the necessary hours until the work is done. I work very late hours myself, but I take off my hat to the work of the Civil Servants of the first division—men with an unquenchable desire to do their duty, most assiduous in the performance of it, and never neglecting it. Of course, there are some, no doubt, who are human like other people, but, taking the service as a whole, they are more devoted to duty than any other body of people I know in any other business of the country, and I have experience of many. When the right hon. Baronet interrupted me, I was going to give another illustration. The average salary of general managers of insurance companies to-day is £8,600, and, accordingly, you can see that the £3,000 which the Asquith Committee regarded as an appropriate salary for the heads of the Civil Service is not an exaggerated one. I should like to remind the Committee of what the Asquith Committee actually said:
"After making full allowance for any advantage enjoyed by civil servants in the matter of prestige attaching to their appointments, the professional amenities associated with their work, and their security of tenure and pension privileges, we are of opinion that the salary of the respective permanent heads of the Departments under consideration should be raised to £3,000 a year, as a figure which cannot be challenged either on the merits of the case or on any comparative basis."
:To how many officials did it apply?
:It applied to all those now getting £3,000 a year.
:It specifically stated that it applied to those mentioned in the annexed Schedule.
:It applied to those getting £3,000 a year. There is nothing I should so much desire as to clear up the misapprehensions which, I am afraid, have lodged in many minds too long. As my hon. and gallant Friend said, it refers to the people whose posts were scheduled in the Committee's report, and includes very nearly all those who enjoy that salary to-day. Let me read another passage which is of importance. It is in the letter to the Chancellor of the Exchequer which accompanied the Report. The letter was signed by the right hon. Member for Paisley, and he said this:
"It is no uncommon thing for civil servants in high positions to be offered posts in the business world at three, four or five times their Civil Service salary. Unless the conditions of service generally are sufficiently attractive, the supply of suitable recruits will be undeniably limited. The growing complexity of the machinery of government is such that men of the highest ability are more than ever essential."
That is an opinion of which the Government approves, and for which I ask the endorsement of this Committee. I was going to give the names of the Committee. It was not only the right hon. Member for Paisley who was on that Committee. There were two others—Lord Colwyn and Sir Joseph Maclay, whose business experience, I imagine, is equal to that of any two similar names you could mention in this country at the present time, and neither of them could be described as a person who, either in his own business, or in Government matters, tends towards extravagance. I venture to suggest, according to the Committee's report, that these salaries which have been called in question in recent times, both in speeches and in, the Press, are completely justified. They are more than justified when you consider the temptations which are offered to civil servants to leave the service to which they are attached, and to go into business in the City. During the War, and since then, many men have been taken away from the Civil Service because their work has been recognised, and they have been given salaries very much larger than those they enjoyed in the Civil Service.
:Will the right hon. Gentleman give one instance?
:Yes—a Gentleman who was under the Treasury, Sir Josiah Stamp, whose name is known to everyone here. That occurs to me at once, on the moment, but there are many others. Let me give an example in my own experience of the kind of thing that has occurred. During the War I happened to be associated with several Government Departments at different times—at least, when I say I was associated, I was in touch with them. In one Department there was a certain gentleman who had long been in the service, for whom an increase in salary was desired. It was only an increase of £50, on a salary of, I think, £400 a year—it was not so much as £500. I had a great fight with the Treasury to get the increase. I ultimately got it, because this man was working under very great difficulties in a position of immense responsibility, as are so many civil servants to-day. I could startle the House with instances of the kind of thing they have to do at the present time in contact with men whom they have to meet who are receiving six times their salary. That is one of the difficulties in which you put them. But let me go on with the illustration I was giving. That gentleman stayed in the Government service, out of loyalty, till the end of the War. Immediately the War was over, he took an offer which had been made at a much earlier period, and left the Government's service for a business position at a salary of £3,000 a year. That kind of thing, believe me, is not infrequent. The theory that you can get good men to-day at cheap salaries, when you think of the business demand that is made for them, is one which cannot bear looking into for a moment, and every business man in this House who is listening to me will endorse that statement. So much for the attack upon the salaries of the higher-paid members of the Civil Service. I cannot imagine that the representatives of the Independent Liberal party, at any rate, are going to attack the report which their leader gave upon this matter.
:We had no Coupon!
:Does the Government accept responsibility for these appointments or not? Did the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley make the appointments?
:I said in an earlier part of my speech that the Government approved the Report and put it into operation. Surely it is not going to be said that the right hon. Gentleman who made the Report does not believe in the result of his inquiry—in what he stated. I should have imagined that that Report would at least have some weight with the followers on the Benches opposite who profess to act with him. I imagine that when my hon. and gallant Friend was questioning my statement about the number of people who were enjoying salaries of £3,000 per year he was thinking of the three controllers in the Treasury who receive an equal amount. I should like to make the Committee aware how that matter stands. The names of these gentlemen were not included in this particular Report. Their case was not before the Committee because they were not heads of permanent Departments. In point of fact their difficulties and responsibilities are equally as great as those of the permanent heads of the Government Departments. They are the people who have to deal with the permanent heads of the Government Departments, and if they are to occupy a subordinate position it is perfectly obvious that they start, in the matter of Treasury control—which everybody considers of such vital importance—at a disadvantage unless they are of equal status to those with whom they have to contest. For that reason the three controllers were given the same salary as the heads of the permanent Departments.
I leave that question, and turn to the suggestions put forward in regard to the people employed in new Departments, such as the Ministry of Food, the Ministry of Shipping, and so on, and I do that for this reason: that whatever is necessary to staff them these new Departments do not enter into comparison with the pre-War and post-War work of the Civil Service. I want to test the kind of criticism made to the effect that since the War a large number of civil servants in the old Departments have, so to speak, dug themselves in and refuse to be ousted from positions in which they are no longer required. That is the kind of criticism made: it is also said that two men are now doing the work that one man could do.
I do not at all desire to put before the Committee the idea that I am content to accept the present situation and say that it is all right. On the contrary, I assure the Committee that I am doing my very utmost in connection with all these matters of expenditure to get right down to bedrock and to discover what really is the minimum of staff required to carry out the ordinary service of the country. No matter how much requires to be done or how many people may be hurt in the process, whatever is necessary to be done I shall certainly make an attempt to do. What, however, I would put to the Committee is that hon. Members ought not to judge harshly until they know the facts, and a primâ facie consideration certainly does not give room for criticism of the kind we have heard and read. You may criticise the Government if you like, that they ought to have got rid of the Ministry of Food and the Ministry of Shipping earlier—that these ought not to tarry longer on the stage. That is criticism of us. What I am trying to answer is the criticism that civil servants are not working as they did before the War. I have seen that criticism several times. I have seen it stated by the representatives of the Anti-Waste party that two men were now doing one man's job. If the representatives of the Anti-Waste party do not believe in that kind of criticism I will let it go by.
:What I say is that it is the fault of the Government.
:I see! The hon. Gentleman is going to maintain that argument after all, only in a different form. Let me point to a consideration which perhaps may give him pause. If you take the Departments in existence before the War, and which are still at work, you will find that they were manned by a staff approximately numbering 283,000. Since the War that staff has grown to 312,000—an addition of 10 per cent. to the pre-War figure. I agree that this requires investigation, and, as I say, I am going to look into it. At any rate, that fact does not give ground, until the investigation takes place, for making any very rabid criticism of what is being done. You have a partial explanation of that extra 10 per cent. in the fact that the work of the Revenue Departments has enormously increased since the War. If you imagine how complicated your financial system is now as a result of what we had to do during the War in order to raise revenue, you will get a ready explanation of the increases which have taken place in the Revenue Departments, and, believe me, these Departments are very much overworked to-day instead of being otherwise.
Take another item, which deals with the expenditure of the Departments such as the Navy, the Admiralty, and the War Office, which are to-day engaged in liquidating their War commitments. They are examining matters with meticulous care lest the money of the country should be wasted. Personally, I am rather inclined to the opinion that it would be better to risk some of these accounts not being settled with complete accuracy in order to get rid of the staff. Perhaps on the whole that might be the wisest economy at the present time. You must, however, remember that the accountancy system is subject to review by the Public Accounts Committee, and anybody who takes shortened methods of this kind may find themselves in difficulty at the hands of the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury). That is another reason for the increase. People who wish to criticise the size of staff now employed would do well to wait until we see how this matter turns out upon investigation, and on that investigation I give my assurance—
:Does the 10 per cent include the shorthand typists and the staff increases?
:It includes everybody—the whole staff employed in the Departments. The Committee will recollect that certain additions have been required in the general staff in a variety of Departments. For example, the housing policy—such as it is—has required a considerable strengthening of the staff in the Ministry of Health. The extra health services arising from the legislation which has been passed have also required an additional staff. The War Graves Commission required a staff. If hon. Members of the Committee will think of it for a moment they will see that there is a vast amount of work required on these matters. Again, there is the distribution of medals to our troops. Hon. Members have no idea of the enormous labour involved in this. It has been the usual method to put the name of every man entitled to a medal upon the medal itself. That meant extra labour to put the necessary imprint upon the medals, and it also necessitated the double handling of every medal. When the medals run into millions and you have to see that everybody's medal is presented, and presented to the right man, it will be seen what it means in the way of extra work and extra staff. Therefore, I hope the Committee will not be impatient in this matter, but consider that if the work has to be done expeditiously and well the staff must be there to do it.
I turn to the third item, which possibly has excited more interest recently than any other—the bonus scheme. I should like the Committee, in the first place, to understand what are the kind of salaries which are being paid in the Civil Service. It would surprise many Members to know that 50 per cent. of all the people who are entitled to bonus—which represents something over 300,000 civil servants—50 per cent. got a wage before the War of less than 35s. per week. Eighty-eight per cent. of the whole had salaries or wages of less than £200 a year, or £4 a week. There are only 6,000 persons in the service who have salaries of over £500 a year. There are only 770 persons with salaries of £1,000 or over.
:Without war bonus?
:Without war bonus. I am treating all without war bonus. Just imagine those 770 persons. They are supervisors and directors of a staff of over 550,000 persons, made up in this way: There are the people beside those who are entitled to bonus as civil servants. The Committee will understand that a large number of people working in Government dockyards, Government factories, arsenals, and so on, and all these people have to be supervised. The Civil Service itself, in its ordinary administrative work, require supervision. There are 770 persons enjoying salaries of £1,000 or over a year to manage that enormous undertaking, the most colossal business in the world. Let me deal with the bonuses. There is in the Civil Service a Whitley Council, as there is now in many other great industries, and this Whitley Council was applied to, about a couple of years ago, to determine the proper amount of remuneration in the Civil Service. The Whitley Council can only deal with salaries under £500 a year; people in the higher grades are not subject to the ordinary operation of the Whitley Council. They went into the whole matter, and under their scheme of bonus for everybody who had less than 35s. a week they added a bonus of 130 per cent. The reason for fixing 130 per cent. was that this was the percentage of increase in the cost of living at the time when they originally fixed the bonus, and they provided that there should be a sliding scale according as the percentage of increase in the cost of living rose or fell. Roughly, I think the sliding scale was that for every five points the percentage rose l/26th part was added to the bonus, and for every five points it fell l/26th part came off. For the first grade of 35s. a week 130 per cent. was added, rising or falling according to the rise or fall in the cost of living. In the case of the amount of remuneration over 35s. a week and under £200 a year 60 per cent. was the bonus allowed, and this also rises or falls in the same way. For the amount over £200 a year the bonus was fixed at 45 per cent. It provided, as I have already said, that these bonuses should alter as the cost of living rose or fell.
Unlike what was done in some other industries, they did not provide any point at which the fall should stop, and to that extent the bonus was less favourable to the civil servant than, for example, to the railway industry. They provided also that the revision should take place in the first year at the end of each period of four months, but there- after only at the end of each period of six months. Accordingly, we are now at a time in which the six-monthly review applies. That is why I think so much criticism has been caused because of the high rate of bonus which still exists, although the cost of living has in the interval fallen. The next revision is due on the 1st of September. This bonus scheme, if you really go into the details, was not more favourable than bonus schemes which have been applied to many other industries which have regulated remuneration in accordance with the rise or fall in the cost of living; it is less favourable than some and more favourable than others.
:Does that mean in the case of all salaries above £200, no matter how high the figure, the bonus was 45 per cent? Let us take a salary, for example, of £1,500. Would there be 45 per cent. bonus on that?
:There was only one limitation which was added, and it was that no person could have a bonus of more than £750 a year. But taking the case which my right hon. Friend has mentioned, a person with a salary of £1,500 a year was entitled to the 45 per cent. bonus on all that part of his salary which is over £200, and in point of fact got the £750, and therefore received a salary of £2,250.
:But the Whitley Council revision did not apply to salaries above £500.
:I was going to deal with that point. The Whitley Council did not deal with salaries over £500. When the Whitley Council came to that conclusion the Government decided that they would apply the 45 per cent. increase to salaries above £500 just as it applied to those below £500 a year. The Government did that on its own discretion without the necessity of any decision by the Whitley Council. The Whitley Council Report says:
"It has been conveyed to us that if the above scheme becomes operative it will be applied to include officers on rates of salary up to £1,000 per annum."
That was in accordance with the Government's discretionary decision that they would give the 45 per cent. increase upon salaries above £500. I want to say a word or two about that matter. I do not know whether there is a suggested reproach in my hon. Friend's criticism on that point. I would remind the Committee that salaries in every profession were very largely increased, not only by bonuses, but by other systems of increase. I would first go back to the illustration with regard to railway managers, bank managers, and insurance managers. A railway manager with an average salary of £3,900 a year was increased to £5,700. A bank manager with an average salary of £2,900 was increased to £7,200 a year; an insurance manager with an average salary of £4,600 was increased to £8,600. These are averages taken over those particular professions. Accordingly, the scheme of the Government in allowing this 45 per cent. upon the ordinary salaries was fully justified by all the circumstances outside Government employment, because every industry in the country was offering very large inducements to men of exceptional skill, capacity and character to enter their service, and accordingly I think the policy adopted by the Government was in every respect justifiable.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Supplementary Estimate to which he is now referring, which came under the Whitley recommendation, came before the House at 2 o'clock one morning? I think that is a most important fact.
:I do not know whether my right hon. Friend is going to say that if it had not been two o'clock in the morning something different would have happened, but I put it to the House, is there anybody here who really says, looking at the salaries that were being paid to the wage-earners in the shape of bonus in every employment in the country, that an increase of 45 per cent. under the circumstances in which we found ourselves then would have been regarded as unjustifiable.
:Yes.
:My hon. Friend has got into Parliament by giving a certain number of assurances to his constituents, and I feel sure that he will maintain them, no matter what the situation is and under all circumstances. I am not sure, however, that if my hon. Friend had been dealing with the matter at the time he would have faced the matter by saying that these increases should not have been granted, and that, after all, is the test. We had to face the danger of these officials withdrawing from the public service to take up more lucrative business. I say frankly that I do not understand the attitude of anybody who thinks that the Civil Service is to be recruited upon an arrangement for cheap labour. Once you start upon that you will get the Civil Service you deserve.
:Is that what it was before the War?
:What is the position in which we stand? On the 1st of September the automatic operation of the sliding scale takes place. The effect of it, if we assume the cost of living to be at the figure of 130, as it seems more or less likely to be, is that between £10,000,000 and £11,000,000 will automatically come off the bonuses which have been provided in the Civil Service. I have no doubt that I shall be asked what I mean to do in the situation in which we now find ourselves. Circumstances have materially changed. There are many people to-day who are suffering great privations in this country because of the great depression through which we are going. There are many people who never had any bonus at all who to-day quite naturally grudge paying taxes in order that civil servants should have, as they think, very high bonuses. One understands and appreciates that, but I see that some people are suggesting that the bonuses should be taken away altogether. Our view is that this is an entirely impracticable proposition. Is anybody going to say, even the hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. E. Harmsworth), that we should put back 50 per cent. of the Civil Service to a wage of 35s. a week or under or 88 per cent. of the Civil Service back to a salary of £200 a year or under? If that is his proposition I am afraid we must differ abysmally.
7.0 P.M.
Looking at the matter as fairly as we can we have come to the conclusion that, so far as salaries under £500 a year are concerned, we ought not to propose to take anything off the bonus now being paid to civil servants. They will suffer, of course, the automatic reduction. It is from this class that the £10,000,000 will mainly come. I do not suggest to the House that we should do anything further in the reduction of their bonus. Then there is the body of people with salaries varying from £500 to £3,000. I daresay the Committee will recollect that the Asquith Committee recognised even that the people-with £3,000 a year ought to have a bonus of £500, and that has been paid since the recommendations of the Committee were adopted. What I am going to propose is that no bonus at all should be paid upon any salary over £2,000 a year. The hardship which is caused by an increase in the cost of living is suffered much more amongst those with salaries of £500 and under, but there is not the same degree of hardship in the case of people who have got salaries in excess of that figure.
:May I ask whether civil servants now receiving £1,500 a year, with £750 bonus, will still get £2,250.
:I am just trying to say that this will not be so. Anybody with a salary of £2,000 and upwards will have no bonus. Nobody will have his or her salary brought above £2,000 by bonus. With regard to people having salaries of £500 a year up to £2,000, I make the following proposals: That in addition to the automatic reduction which takes place on 1st September, there shall be taken off what remains of the bonus a further reduction of 10 per cent., in the case of people with salaries from £500 to £700; another 5 per cent., making 15 per cent., will be taken from the bonus on salaries up to £800; another 5 per cent. will be taken in the case of people up to £900 a year, and so on until you get in the end an extra reduction of 60 per cent., when you get up to salaries of persons with £1,700 a year. The Committee will recognise that this is a graduating of the reduction, designed to deal fairly with the-people who are less fortunate than those who have got higher salaries. I venture to commend the principle to the Committee as a fair one. No doubt there will be much heart burning in the Civil Service over this, and they will not accept this announcement of a revision with any enthusiasm, for it means a great reduction.
:Can you tell us what sum will be saved on this year's and next year's Estimates by this reduction?
:So far as this year's Estimate is concerned, the automatic reduction was allowed for in the Estimates. In view of the revision which will take place on 1st September a certain allowance was made in the Estimates, but nobody knows exactly what it will be. A sum was, however, allowed in view of the probable fall of the cost of living, and the revision which would take place. So far as the additional reduction is concerned, that will represent a sum of half a million a year. That reduction will begin from 1st September. As I say, I put forward the proposition, which we regard as fair, looking to all the circumstances in which this country finds itself to-day. It is undoubtedly very bitter for a large part of the middle class of this country, who have enjoyed no advantages at all, and who have only had privations instead. I realise that those who will lose by these operations will be tempted to make serious complaint, but, on the other hand, I very much hope that the Civil Service will accept this position without demur. They, after all, are the heirs of a great tradition, and they themselves, in their own personalities, have served the State well. I have no doubt that if they are left free from the kind of attacks which have been very unfairly made upon them, they will show a spirit as admirable as they have ever shown. They bore in silence during the War many very unjustifiable attacks regarding what was said to be their lack of courage and their taking shelter in Whitehall. It is known to everyone who has served with them that hundreds and thousands of Civil Servants were detained in Whitehall against their will, because they could render so much greater service at home than in the sphere to which they would willingly have gone.
:I am not quite clear as to what the right hon. Gentleman has stated with regard to those who have £500 a year and below that.
:I said that we do not propose to make any change. They will be subject to the automatic reductions, but not to the extra reductions. One cannot foretell the future, but what I say is, that we do not propose any reduction in their case in addition to the automatic reduction: I would like to say, before I sit down, that the attack which has been made upon the Civil Service for their selfishness and greed is just as unjustifiable as the attack which was made during the War in regard to their supposed cowardice. I hope one of the results, at least, of this discussion will be to bring about a cessation of that kind of criticism, and throw into greater relief than ever before the great obligations we owe to one of our greatest Services.
:I beg to move that Subhead Al [ Salaries, Wages, and Allowances ] be reduced by £100.
I do not suppose there is any Member of the House who has had the privilege of working in any way with the Civil Service who will not join in the tribute of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the manner in which they perform their duties. I have had the honour of being slightly associated with no less than seven Departments. We on this side of the House very much agree with what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said about salaries and payment for good work being commensurate with the work. He spoke about the temptation of the commercial world for those in the Civil Service, with which we may also agree; but I would remind him that there is no security of tenure in the commercial world. I do not think it very generous of the Chancellor, when certain decisions have turned out to be rather unpopular, to shift the onus on to the shoulders of my leader, who has served him.
:There is no suggestion that he would run away from his Report.
:The Chancellor of Exchequer knows that the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) has justified the Report, which referred to 21 people, in a letter to the Press. What I say is that it is ungenerous, when you invited the assistance of the right hon. Gentleman, and when you have to revise your decision, that you should then turn round, when you have made the decision and are responsible for it. But that is not a very material point. What I hoped for this afternoon was to hear from the Chancellor of Exchequer how he was going to go round the Public Departments and get a reduction of public expenditure. That is what I understood the Debate was to take place for—in order to elucidate that point. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not said a single word, except towards the end of his speech, which would show us the least promise that the desires of the Financial Secretary in the famous Circular of 15th May, asking for a reduction of 20 per cent., are to be fulfilled. All we had was a defence of the bonus to the Civil Service, which I think is largely justified. He finished up with the announcement of a reduction of £500,000 on a total salary list which, I think, amounts to £65,000,000 in the course of the year. It is not such a reduction which will help you to get a 20 per cent. reduction, which is, in fact, a financial necessity of the country if the balance-sheet is to be made to balance. It is not necessary to remind the Chancellor how hard people have to work in order to meet his demands, for months in the year in some cases. The poorer classes have the taxes on their sugar, tea, and tobacco; taxes which are in some cases a hundred- or a thousand-fold greater than before the War. That is a very serious thing for people whose income does not provide for a margin, and we know that many people have no money to put into expenditure for their businesses.
:That is more appropriate to a Finance Bill.
:It is a. fact that taxation is very heavy, and the Treasury have issued a Circular that expenditure must be reduced by 20 per cent. in all Departments. It was on that Circular that I put down a reduction of the salary of the Financial Secretary, in order that we might debate the policy and its chance of success. I would remind the Chancellor of Exchequer that he will not get very much encouragement from some members of his own Government. The late Chief Whip of the Government party two years ago repudiated with warmth charges of extravagance. He said that no instances of Government extravagance had been made out, though that was the time when the axe should have been applied to the superfluous branches of the tree. When the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) spoke about extravagance, he was accused of ranting about expenditure, and the Chancellor of Exchequer in a speech has said that we should pay our taxes joyfully as we were really paying for the safety we were enjoying. If that be so, we cannot forego our safety, and where is the 20 per cent. going to come from. I hope to show as I go along that we are paying for a number of things which could be reduced, if the policy of the Government were different.
I would remind the Committee, in considering what results we are likely to get from the 20 per cent. demand made by the Financial Secretary, that it is not the first occasion on which such a Circular has been issued. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us he had been applying his mind to the great task of cutting down staffs and thus reducing the burden entailed by the public Departments. No less than two years ago, on 20th August, 1919, the Prime Minister sent out his famous Circular in which he told Ministers that if they could not reduce expenditure they must make room for someone who could, for that was the public temper of the day. He went on to describe the state of the national finance. What, I ask, was the result of that Circular, and I ask it by way of illustration and encouragement to the hon. and gallant Member who sent out the second Circular? Did the Estimates for 1920–21 show these sweeping reductions? True, they showed a reduction of £20,000,000, but it was not on staffs; £140,000,000 reduction had taken place in loans to Allies, in the coal subsidy, the resettlement of soldiers, and so on; but we had only a £20,000,000 reduction shown on the whole Estimates, because £120,000,000 had been put on for other necessary, and often it may be, desirable work. Judging from the precedent of 1919, I do not think the Financial Secretary will get very much encouragement.
When I asked the Leader of the House the other day whether this Circular would be applied to the expenses of this year, because I suggested no harm could be done by so applying it, he said that it certainly would be so applied. Does anyone, however, think that anything can happen this year except the presentation of a new financial statement? I cannot pursue this, I know, but I would like to point out that the whole normal surplus of £80,000,000 or £90,000,000 has been absorbed by the Supplementary Estimates presented to the House this year, so that it is quite clear that as regards this year, while there is no objection to the Financial Secretary asking for a reduction in the Estimates, in practice or theory we are much more likely to have to look about to find out how to make up new deficits. Next year we can do it, and it is intended to do it. That is the effect of the reply I received. Of course it must be understood that the 20 per cent. is the sum necessary to make the balance sheet balance for next year on the assumption that we are going to get the same revenue, an assumption which may not be justified and very likely will not be justified by facts. But assuming the figure of £603,000,000 which the Financial Secretary asks shall be reduced by 20 per cent., assuming that the revenue suffices to meet it, what reduction in what Departments is the hon. and gallant Member going to secure? I thought when I first read the Circular that the 20 per cent. is only to apply to the Civil Service Departments, but I have since gathered that it is to apply to all Departments and to the fighting services. Take the latter. In the £603,000,000 there is a sum of £200,000,000 for these services, the Army £100,000,000, the Navy £82,000,000 and the Air Force £18,000,000. To which of these is he going to apply his axe, especially in view of the fact that the Leader of the House, when he spoke of what he called the normal balance sheet, hinted that the normal year might be postponed for some years? Now we are in a state of safety.
I suppose we may assume that for war purposes these Estimates are normal The normal balance-sheet contains provision for £135,000,000 for these services. In the present balance-sheet we have a provision of £200,000,000, and here, perhaps, the Financial Secretary will be encouraged to ask for his 20 per cent. Is it reasonable only to ask for 20 per cent from the fighting services when we are asking large reductions from the Health, Education, Housing, and other necessary services? When we are at peace and enjoying having to pay for the benefits gained by the War, is it reasonable to suppose we should have the same level of reduction applied to both the peace and the war Departments? Surely not. Assume that the, Financial Secretary asks for his 20 per cent. reduction in the Army. Will the Army be reduced? You have in Whitehall a staff of 7,400 replacing a staff of 1,600 before the War. Can we get the Navy reduced? When we asked the Prime Minister the other day whether, if the Conference at Washington had the happy issue that we all earnestly pray it may have, we would be in a position to abandon the programme of four capital ships and the programme of new construction embodying the lessons of the War—that was the description given of it by the Leader of the House—he told us "No." He described the programme as a replacement of obsolescent ships, and he added that, in the event of agreement being reached, no reductions could possibly be made, even if the Prime Minister agrees or joins with the Financial Secretary in replacing 11,238 members of the staff at Whitehall with the 4,400 who were sufficient before the War, and who were considered sufficient to maintain the Department when the German Fleet was on the High Seas.
Let us turn from these, which are among the chief and most hopeful objectives of economists to some of the minor Departments, big and small, and find out whether there is any reason for the public hope that public expenditure will be cut down to this extent in the forthcoming year. Again the results are extremely disappointing. We have had many of these Debates. There was a Debate initiated by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert), and on the occasion of that the Leader of the House explained what his policy of economy was going to be. He told us that the Ministries of Munitions and Shipping were to be wound up before the 31st March this year, and that the Food Ministry was also to cease at the end of the year. It is true that Acts have been passed by Parliament abolishing these Ministries, but I think we are justified in saying that very disappointingly slow progress has been made in dissolving the staffs and getting rid of the people discharging these obsolescent functions. In the Food Ministry a staff of 1,517 has only gone down by 82.
:The right hon. Gentleman, in answer to a question the other day, said the staff left there still numbered 1,700.
:He may have been dealing with more up-to-date figures. The Shipping Ministry is a small one, but still the staff of it has to be paid and housed, and it has positively increased, although it performs only a very small function.
:It is getting money in.
:Everyone is getting money in, and they are getting our money in. That is my trouble. The same is true when we come to other Departments. The Munitions Ministry only managed to get rid of 10 out of a staff of 2,500 in the course of a month. I suppose the Chancellor of the Exchequer will make the same excuse for them. However, I do not want to flog a dead horse or to deal with a subject which I have been very much reproved for raising. Suppose the Financial Secretary only goes into the room adjoining his own office, and suggests to one of the charming gentleman who perform the dual function of Patronage Secretary—a thing which has never happened before, we have never been privileged to have two Patronage Secretaries before; it was a War arrangement made largely for recruiting purposes on account of the necessities of the moment—that one of them should go. Suppose, however, the charm of the present holders of the offices persuaded my hon. Friend to drop his foul purpose. The Leader of the House, no doubt, would say, as he said to myself, "There is less reason for getting rid of one of the two now than ever there was." I say it is perfectly evident there is no economy to be had in that direction.
Suppose the hon. and gallant Gentleman read the report of the Select Committee which inquired into the remuneration of Ministers. I wonder whether he would, fortified by the undoubted pugnacity of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, be equal to the task of going round the Cabinet and informing their right hon. Lordships, or certain of them, that they are earmarked for dismissal or for reduction of salary. [An HON. MEMBER: "Or for an increase!"] That is what the Leader of the House always says, but I do not see if you recommend that the salaries of A, B, C and D should be reduced and those of E, F, G and H should be increased, that it is adopting the right course to go on with the increases but not with the reduction. You do not compensate the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster for reducing his salary by increasing the salary of the President of the Board of Education, although the latter is a very desirable thing to do. Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman venture to go to the other end of the corridor and inform the Lord Chancellor that a Committee of this House had decided to reduce his salary by £2,000? Would he venture to tell the Minister of Transport that a Motion had been carried that for the future he should be a second-class Minister? Would he care to tell the Lord Privy Seal or the Lord President of the Council that an influential Committee had unanimously recommended that they should perform their duties for nothing? Would he go to the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General and inform them that a Committee appointed by the Government had unanimously recommended that their salaries should be reduced by £2,000 a year? None of us have any reason to doubt the gallantry of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, but I doubt whether that gallantry is equal to such a demand.
Let us pass from that to the Board of Trade. We find that the Estimates for this Department have been increased this year by £209,000. How is the hon. and gallant Gentleman going to pursuade the President of the Board of Trade to cut 20 per cent. off next year? The right hon. Gentleman will turn round and say to him, "Have you or have you not been in the House of Commons? Have you not heard of the Mines Department and of the Safeguarding of Industries Bill? Have you never heard of the German Reparations (Recovery) Act? Do you not know that it is impossible for me to go on with my task unless I have people on my staff who can read German and check certificates of origin? I cannot reduce by 20 per cent." Or, say, the hon. and gallant Member goes to the Secret Service Department, which I venture to suggest has been, as regards expenses, swelling unconscionably in recent years. It now exhausts no less than £300,000, whereas before the War it annually consumed only £50,000. It is a great Department which is run on the belief that there is need for the expenditure of this money and for engaging all this army of people in order to meet some Bolshevik menace. Suppose that the hon. and gallant Gentleman said that, despite those fears, a really swinging reduction must be made in that service. He is met at once by the Colonial Secretary and the Prime Minister, who have been explaining in their speeches that the Bolshevik menace is coming from the East, and that we must have an army in order to meet it; or that there is going to be a coal strike and they must issue appeals to the public in order to keep public opinion on the right side. I think that the expenditure of money on the formation of public opinion in support of a policy is a most reprehensible practice. The policy should stand on its merits. It is the business of rival politicians to condemn or defend it; it is not the business of the public taxpayer to have it advertised and recommended.
:While the hon. and gallant Gentleman is quite in order in reviewing the Departments, when he goes into the policy of a Department I think that, on former rulings, he is not in order.
:I recognise that I was going too far, and I shall endeavour fully to observe your ruling. Without reviewing the policy, I would point out that, upon three disputes that have taken place in the last two years, no less than £111,000 has been spent in posters and circulars advertising that one side was right and the other wrong. So long as that is the view that is taken, there is small hope for the Financial Secretary when he goes round the Departments and asks for a reduction. Suppose that he goes to the Ministry of Agriculture. This year there is a large sum to be met in liquidation of the Agriculture Act. I am not sure whether the £1,000,000 for research is to continue or not.
indicated dissent.
:Then there is simply the normal expenditure in that direction. Suppose, again, that the hon. and gallant Gentleman goes to the Inland Revenue Department. There is an increase of £1,132,000 in Customs and Excise for this year, due to the gradual increase since 1913–14 in the volume and complexity of the work done. He cannot ask for any reduction there when he himself—much against his will, I hope—is supporting a Bill for throwing enormous new duties upon that Department. That they are the duties that cause the increase there can be no doubt, because, looking at the sub- heads showing the increase, we find the chief ones to be wages of customs collection, travelling allowances, vessels and boats, forms and superannuation. We are, of course, familiar with the duties. I have referred to them before in connection with another Department. Enormous duties are to be cast on the Customs Department, and it has been given a staff which is to carry out the functions thrown upon it by recent legislation—functions which are very difficult and expensive to perform. For instance, to get men who are able to go into a boat or ship and identify the particular rare or precious metals which are at present dutiable, is itself very expensive, and makes it extremely difficult, and indeed almost impossible, for a reduction of staff to take place. I do not think, therefore, that the hon. and gallant Gentleman will get much help there.
Suppose that he goes to the Foreign Office. That shows a welcome reduction of £17,000 on this year's Estimate; but that reduction is due to the fact that the Middle Eastern service has been taken away, and the Middle Eastern Department is costing £20,000, which, in the Memorandum, is described as being for a skeleton staff for the new Department. A most alarming statement, as I thought, in view of the orator who made it, was made by the Secretary for the Colonies, who said: "I grudge money on Mesopotamia, because I recognise the importance of developing the profitable Department in other directions." What could be saved on Mesopotamia was already earmarked, according to this view of the Colonial Secretary, for the profitable possessions of the Crown which have the good fortune to be under his direction. Passing to housing, I do not see where 20 per cent. is going to come off the Ministry of Health Vote in regard to housing. All that the Minister himself said the other day was that he hoped to save an increase next year—not to get a decrease. He said that this year he might make a reduction of £600,000, on an Estimate of £10,000,000—which is only 6 per cent.; but he has to face next year all the winding up charges of these derelict housing schemes—he has to pay local authorities for roads, sewers, sites and plans. He has what he calls, I think, a Housing Liquidation Department. He said, "I propose to be generous, frank and fair with the local authorities." You cannot be generous, frank and fair with anyone without its costing something, and I do not think that when the Financial Secretary goes to the Housing Department to get a 20 per cent. reduction he is likely to meet with very much success. In that I am fortified by the opinion of the Leader of the House himself. In one of the economy discussions which we had in December of last year, Mr. Pemberton Billing, who was then a Member of the House, asked the Leader of the House whether he meant to stop municipal housing schemes. He said in reply that the sums that could be saved by that means would not amount in the aggregate to a very substantial figure, even if all those schemes were completely arrested, and that the only method of effecting a saving on a considerable scale was in the War Departments. Therefore, as regards the housing programme, we have no houses and no saving, so that there again it seems extremely unlikely that the hon. and gallant Gentleman will meet with much success.
There is only one other possibility, namely, the Irish Office. That is an expensive administration, growing yearly in cost owing to the policy that has been followed. If we had peace in Ireland it would mean a very substantial alleviation of that load, on the one side, but it is doubtful whether any settlement of the Irish question could be made which would not involve at least as heavy a financial commitment on the other. Therefore, while we all desire a good outcome of the present negotiations, I do not think we can look for economies there. To sum it all up, the hon. and gallant Gentleman has a very difficult and uphill task. A great deal of money has been already irrecoverably wasted. The reasons for that were lavish promises at the Election, unbusinesslike efforts to fulfil the same, hesitation, oscillation, and, finally, a perfectly stationary position. That is a rough account of the Government's policy. I shall look with great interest, when the hon. and gallant Gentleman replies, for some correction of my forecast, and for some hope that the public may look at least for the lighter alleviation of their burdens, which have been forecasted.
:I have listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn), but I do not intend to follow him in the copious review of the legislative business of the Session which formed a large part of his speech, nor do I intend, in discussing this matter, to sharpen my arguments by using the arts of party recrimination. This is far too serious a matter for recrimination. It must be discussed, not from the party point of view, but from the point of view of the interests of the nation. I do not owe allegiance to that eminent group of politicians calling themselves the Anti-Waste party, who seem to me to deal mostly in newspaper advertisements and journalistic "stunts." They seem to lack a perception of proportion, and to think that what looks best in the shop window is most important to the nation; and they seem to forget that economy means just as much spending in the right place as saving in the right place. I think that errors have been committed by the Government in both these respects. We must look at the large question of economy, and ask ourselves, firstly, what economy means; secondly, how far it may go; and, thirdly, does it involve any evil consequences in other directions? The Chancellor of the Exchequer knows me well enough to know that I have no doubt as to the sincerity of his intentions, nor as to the energy and ability with which he will set about what he intends to do; but he must forgive me if I somewhat resent the tone of petulance which broke out once or twice in his speech. He began, as he ended, on a note which was entirely wrong. He spoke of those who felt doubts about this expenditure on the Civil Service as using the language of scurrility, as being animated by malice, and as being unaware of the merits of the Civil Service. Let me tell him that we are not discussing the Civil Service here; we are discussing the conduct of himself and his colleagues; and I do not think it is fair to the House or to those who criticise that action that my right hon. Friend should turn round upon us and say that we are attacking the Civil Service and are incapable of estimating and appreciating its good qualities.
Attacking the Civil Service! I am really surprised to find that my right hon. Friend uses language of that sort. It has been used by others of his colleagues to me personally, and I am entitled, to some extent, to resent it. If there is any man who values the Civil Service, it is myself, for I have 35 years of work in and knowledge of it; but there is such a thing as over praise of the Civil Service, and when I was in the Civil Service there was nothing that surfeited our palates more than unctuous adulation of our good qualities. We were just as good or as bad as other men. We did our best. It is no good throwing copious and almost sugary adulation at the Civil Service, and by that means defending yourselves as Ministers when you are charged—
:I hope my right hon. Friend will forgive me for interrupting him. I was not referring, in anything that I said, to any writings of his, but to articles which had appeared and statements which had been made, not at all of the character that he described. So far as my intervention on behalf of the Civil Service was concerned, I hope that he, as an old member of the Civil Service, will recognise that if I do not defend it when it is attacked I am neglecting my duty.
:I fully understand. I do not accuse the Civil Service—far from it; I know its value. I do not even entirely accuse the Minister. I accuse partly the House of Commons. But what disappoints me is not so much the errors which, perhaps in common with the House, Ministers are apt to commit. What makes me feel absolutely hopeless is their defence of their errors once they are committed. They never will admit that they are in error. That is what makes us hopeless of any correction. But do not let them think that anyone is bringing a charge against the Civil Service. I will take the three points of which my right hon. Friend spoke. I will take, first, the bonus. I am entirely in favour of the bonus for the lower branches of the Civil Service. I think it was necessary to a great extent, but I doubt whether the calculation based upon the Board of Trade returns was a fair or reasonable one. The Board of Trade returns were disputed and their foundations were very seriously weakened by the examination of the Committee over which Lord Sumner presided. I think it would be quite fair that all moderately-paid members of the Civil Service should be told "burdens are increased, we think we ought to take a considerable part of those burdens off you, but, like the rest of the citizens, you must bear some of the cost. We do not think that, because prices have risen 130 per cent., therefore all your salaries must be increased by 130 per cent." The money in this country will not go round. We know that if we make the 550,000 civil servants perfectly secure by giving them 130 per cent., or whatever the additional cost of living may be, we leave the other 39,000,000 people who have to suffer these heavy taxes, and, after their incomes have been diminished by taxation, have to meet the higher cost of living. It would have been wiser that that bonus system should not have been quite so lavish.
Next I come to the question of the higher posts. I am very glad to hear that my right hon. Friend intends to make modifications in regard to the higher posts. I know by the letters I receive from civil servants themselves that many of them thought they were placed in an invidious position by the high bonuses paid to men getting £3,000 a year. That ought to be stopped, and I am certain they will accept that loyally and proudly as worthy of the traditions of the service. But the mistake remains still—and here I blame the heads of the Treasury and no one else—of granting these bonuses to men who have already had 50 per cent. increase in their salaries, and I think the objection we have to those increases in salary requires to be clearly and distinctly stated. I was told by the previous Chancellor of the Exchequer, as well as by my right hon. Friend, that they felt convinced that a large increase of salary was necessary. I am quite convinced that, if they had come to the House and explained their view, the House would have listened with consideration. But a sweeping jump of 50 per cent. was rather large. We were not informed that this was contemplated at all. We were not told that any Committee was even proposed. The Committee made its report on 20th July last year. Even then we heard nothing whatever about it. Ministers resolved to act upon it without informing the House of Commons of that Report, and not only to act upon it but to pre-date it to 1st March, 1920. We were never told about the Report until the beginning of this year—and it was not printed till March last, and at that date the payments had been carried on for twelve months.
That is an abuse of Parliamentary form. Financial Ministers who tell us that they are following constitutional practice, and yet are guilty of a lapse of that sort, and a discounting of Parliamentary authority, are simply throwing dust in our eyes. I am convinced that they do not believe in their own sincerity, and they could not seriously in any private business make such a statement. But, passing from that past history my right hon. Friend thinks that this 50 per cent. increase of salary, with bonus added, was justified, and he told us so. He will bring in once again this tiresome comparison with the City. Let me tell him he cannot compete with Lombard Street if he tries. He may bring a few isolated instances of men showing special talents who are selected for special commercial posts of very high emolument. Does he really mean to tell the House that the gentleman who worked for £400 a year and was then suddenly raised in the City to £3,000 is a typical, normal and usual instance which can be paralleled all round the Civil Service, and that if he does not immediately raise all the 400-pounders to £3,000 they will leave?
:I did not say that.
:My right hon. Friend did not say that, but what was the use of bringing forward the instance? These offers made to isolated men are not to be taken as ordinary cases. The traditions in the City and in the Civil Service are not the same. What you want in the city is a man of bold, audacious, it may be almost reckless power of initiative, reckless in his audacity, trying to outwit his neighbour and advance himself as fast as he can. It is not for him to do what is the duty of the civil servant, to see that his decisions and his actions and his administration rest upon sound principles, that once applied they will not be dangerous if they are used in other directions, that they rest on sure constitutional principles, that he may go on from one precedent to another, that he is sure he is giving advice to his political chief which may be followed in other cases as well as in the immediate case. Caution, loyalty, clearness of discrimination, absolute avoidance of anything like sharp practice—these are the things you want in the Civil Service. Beware how you invite your audacious man from Lombard Street into the Civil Service to bring in the tradition of boldness. He is all very well in his own sphere. Let us see how long he will be moderate, calm, loyal, and learn discipline in subordination. That same audacity which might have made him great in the City will certainly make him kick over the traces sometimes in your service. The greatness of our Civil Service has been its lack of aggressive obtruding of itself and its loyalty to its chiefs as the primary motive. You may go too far if you take this ideal of the great City man as the proper ideal for the Civil Service. The Civil Service is not to be compared properly with commercial undertakings. The men who are on the level of the Civil Service are the men who otherwise would pursue the professions of law, medicine, and literature, and it is with them that you must compare, and not with the great princes of commerce. If you attempt to do the latter you will make a mistake.
8.0 P.M.
Compare the position of the civil servant who has made his mark and has got a good position. He is not so well paid as the commercial man. He does not make the great income that his brother who went to the Bar and succeeded makes. But when the two men joined their professions they took their choice. The man who went to the law knew that he might be an absolute failure or he might be a great success. The civil servant knows that if he goes into the civil service he may not gain the high prizes belonging to the law, but he is quite pertain that he will never starve. He will have a safe competence and a pension at the end, and there are other compensations. The Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke of the desperate anxiety that he found unequalled in any rank of life. I think he said civil servants were unequalled in any rank of life in the country for devotion to duty. I beg him not to flatter them too much. Does he not know that it is one of the most intrinsically interesting pursuits that any man can engage in, and that if he has talents for it no other pursuit will equal it in attraction? He knows he has an interesting occupation and one which may be enormously important for the lives of his own fellow men. Beyond all this, as long as he behaves well and follows the high traditions of the service there is no man more independent than the higher civil servant. His position is perfectly secure and his salary is secure. Compare his position with that of one of the leviathans of the City who is attracted by a salary of £10,000 a year. Is it not possible that any day such a man may find a note on his desk telling him that he can seek for other employment because they have no further need of his services? That is not a thing which the civil servant has to face. I come next to the question of the enormous increase of the staffs, for which the right hon. Gentleman indicated no real remedy. He said the work had enormously increased. I will point out one or two instances which may lead the right hon. Gentleman to modify his view. Recent legislation has transferred the greater part of the Educational administration from the Education Departments to the local authorities. Those local authorities have had enormous duties laid upon them, and their expenses have greatly increased. Whereas the Central Departments had formerly to pay grants to each individual school, and had to deal with an enormous complexity of work, they now only pay large subsidies of several £100,000 to 140 local authorities in England and 45 local authorities in Scotland. Therefore, the work in the Central Department ought to have been very much reduced. What do I find? I find that the salaries, apart from bonus, in the Education Department have grown from £204,000 a year in 1916 to £514,000 in 1921, or an increase of 150 per cent. In the Scottish Education Department exactly the same change in administration has taken place, and the salaries in that Department, apart from bonus, have grown from £27,000 to £62,000. Therefore, altogether apart from bonus, there has been an enormous increase in salaries for less work.
The defect is that you have slackened Treasury control. In the Departments, years ago, we were angry at Treasury control, and resisted it and felt it to be a hard yoke, but it was the watchdog of the public purse. The Treasury has disregarded and forgotten that character. At any rate, it does not pursue it with the same earnestness, keenness, and tenacity that it did before. You must ruthlessly cut down your staffs. Your staffs are increasing. I know from inside knowledge that the work of a Department may be injured by an absolutely inadequate staff. But what is almost worse than an inadequate staff is a redundant staff, for they get in the way of one another. I am certain that in many Departments there is a redundant staff. It is no use going to a permanent head and asking him to turn off so many of his staff. He cannot do it. He has men who have been working with him, and he cannot tell them to clear out. You must tell him firmly that you have no alternative, and that he must get on somehow or other with a smaller staff. You must get back to a certain sanity of administration. Do not think that you are going to get the best by trying to get from the City men whose only object is salaries which can be counted in five figures. That has not been the tradition of the Civil Service, and do not try to introduce it.
Treat the civil servant with consideration, and treat him with that loyalty which I know the Chancellor of the Exchequer always will practice, and perhaps even exaggerate, but do remember that it is not by encouraging over-boldness or over-recklessness that you will get success. Many of the greatest cases of recklessness and extravagance which we detected during the War were in every case due to some of these heaven-sent men who had been attracted from commercial life into the Civil Service. I remember that one gentleman came before the Committee with the high-sounding name of brigadier-general. He had worked in a certain Government office. At short notice the Stationery Office were asked to print a very large supply of a certain Form. The Stationery Office had complete command over every printing press in the country during the War, and they informed the head of the office that it was impossible for them to print this form in less than three months; that it could not be done in the country. This person who had been brought in from outside thought that he could do it, and he got some friend of his, who was a printer of ornamental cards, to undertake the duty. It took about nine months to do the work, and cost several thousand pounds more than it would have cost otherwise. Let me add this one word, that the gentleman who arranged the order which proved so costly to the public is now a traveller for the firm in question. That is the sort of thing that may occur, perfectly honestly, if you bring people from commerce into the Civil Service.
I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer not to think that we are blaming the Civil Service, or that we are blaming him or the Government. We, along with them, have made mistakes, but do not let the Government or the Chancellor of the Exchequer take away the hope of correcting mistakes by adopting too high an attitude in defending them. That makes us hopeless of reform. Let me tell him that he is pursuing a will-o'-the-wisp that may be a danger by trying to get his recruits for the Civil Service from the wide range of the City. Here and there he may find a good man, but not always. Do not let him be frightened by the occasional offers from the City of big salaries to men who are in the Civil Service. The instances are few, although we hear a great deal about them when they occur. They are not repeated, and they may sometimes prove very considerable failures. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not trust to cutting down the staff merely by appealing to the permanent heads. Let there be a peremptory order that the staffs are to be decreased and I am certain that the will and power to do it will be found.
:I listened to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and I was pleased to find that the position of the civil servants whose salaries are below £500 per annum will be left to be decided by the machinery of the Whitley Council which has been set up. I regret to find that for civil servants above that figure, notwithstanding the fact that the decision of the Whitley Council had been applied to them, there is to be a super-cut in addition to the one that will be brought about by the sliding scale of the Whitley Council scheme on the 1st September. I am not pleased with these discussions on the Civil Service. There ought to be outside machinery for dealing with them, and they should not be discussed in this House as they are. I sometimes marvel that there is such smooth working and peace in the Civil Service. I have thought more than once when I have seen civil, servants sitting under the gallery that there must be a good deal of silent profanity going on there when they hear what is said in this House from time to time. Hon Members talk about the civil servants in a way that they would not think of talking about their own private servants. They malign them, they sneer at them, they publicly discuss them, and they write in the Press about them. There is no service in this country that is treated in the same way as the Civil Service, and they deserve something better.
It may be thought that because I am a Labour Member, and because the people under £500 a year are not interfered with, that I should have no concern about the others, but that is not so, I believe that where trained brains are required, also high technical skill and administrative ability, that they ought to be well paid for, and I shall try to prove that the civil servants are not paid the same as people in comparable positions in private concerns. Notwithstanding the war bonus, the lower paid people in the Civil Service ought not to be reduced beyond the wages they are getting at the present time, and in the higher positions they ought to be very well paid. Our complaint is that the educational system of this country is not such as to enable the children of the poor to get the same educational advantages which would fit them for these higher positions, just as much as the children of those who are better off.
A Whitley Council was set up to deal with the Civil Service, and it not only decided upon the advances in salary, but upon a system for taking away the bonus according to the decrease in the cost of living. They set up very complete machinery for dealing with the Civil Service. There is behind the Whitley Council a board of arbitrators, consisting of three gentlemen, and if the Whitley Council fail to agree upon any point this board of arbitrators can be called in. That makes the system very complete, and applies to the Civil Service a more complete system than applies to any other service in the country. That being so, I do not think it is right for the Government to interfere even with the higherpaid people. The complete machinery ought to be allowed to operate. The bonus is paid in accordance with an agreement based upon the Cost of Living Report of the Whitley Council of the 8th May, 1920. The scale of the bonus is: For the first £91 of salary 130 per cent., on the amount between £90 and £200, 60 per cent.; and over £200, 45 per cent.; which surely is not a great increase when we consider the cost of living. The above scale is based on the cost of living index figure of 130. The bonus is subject to revision every six months, to be increased or decreased by one twenty-sixth of the total bonus for every five points rise or fall on the average cost of living figure for the preceding six months. The maximum amount of any bonus is £750 per annum.
The last revision took place on the 1st March. It was based on an average cost of living figure of 165, owing to the fact that the very high index figure in the winter months of last year was necessarily take into account. The next revision will take place on the 1st September, when a big reduction is anticipated by the automatic operation of the sliding scale. On the Government's own estimate the average cost of living index figure for the six months, March to August, will be 125. The bonus on £100 will drop by £38 per annum; on £300 it will drop by £70; on £500 by £98; on £600 by £112, so that the cut is pretty severe without taking into account the super-cut that the Government proposes. On £800 the drop will be £140, and on £1,000, £167. The Chancellor of the Exchequer seems to think that the cost of living will be 130 per cent. up in September. I do not know whether that is so. If so, the estimated cost of living will be going up instead of down. I have been working out the new figures, and if I am anything like correct, on £500 the reduction will be £118; on £600, £134; on £700, £172; on £800, £213; on £900, £260, and on £1,000, £310. These are substantial reductions. The figures which I have read out previously, if the cost of living was up 125 per cent., were pretty substantial without these super-cuts proposed by the Government.
Another point is that those receiving over £500 per annum had no bonus in 1914–15–16–17. It was said the other day that if they did without a bonus during the War, surely they would do without it now. But, after all, there are obligations to the civil servants, and we cannot help taking into account the fact that during those years they had no advance in salary. The machinery of which I have spoken is not to be allowed to deal with those over £500. That is not fair, because these people were brought under that scheme deliberately by the Government, and they ought to be included now. The bonus scheme was settled in accordance with an agreement contained in the Cost of Living Report of the Whitley Council, dated 8th May, 1920, signed on behalf of the Government by the official side of the joint committee after consultation with Ministers and by accredited representatives of all grades of the Civil Service. That agreement stated:
:I am sure that my hon. Friend does not mean to convey a wrong impression above that last answer of mine. It referred to salaries under £500.
:There is nothing there to show that, but I am appealing to have the same machinery applied to all which would be fairer than for the Government to make the cuts which they are making at present. I do not know whether I am in order in referring to something which took place on the Estimates Committee, but outside of that plenty of comparisons have been made, and a comparison was made as between civil servants and professors at universities. I do not think that there is any comparison at all. The "Morning Post" some three or four weeks ago made a comparison between civil servants and certain higher naval ratings. Again I do not think there is anything comparable. The "Daily News" has made the same comparison between higher naval ratings and army officers, and, though they uphold the civil servants, to my mind the comparison is not fair. I think that we should have to take some men in big secretarial positions, or the managing directors of certain companies, to find people who would be comparable to those who fill the higher positions in these Government Departments.
I was reading in one of the Sunday papers that the manager of a company, I think it was the Gordon Hotels, Limited, has resigned his position. I do not know whether it was because his salary was not high enough, but his salary was £7,000 per annum. There was another important firm, a whisky firm, the secretary or managing director of which was receiving £14,000 a year. When you compare such salaries with Civil Service salaries you see how much lower the Civil Service salary is. There is nothing more important than that the heads of the great Government Departments should be adequately paid. From inquiries made as to the practice of typical large concerns, such as banks, insurance companies, etc., it appears that the average remuneration (including cost of living addition) in 1920 of the principal officials exceeds the average remuneration in 1913 by more than 100 per cent. The result of this investigation is confirmed by a statement made by the Financial Secre- tary to the Treasury on 23rd July, to the effect that the average remuneration of general managers has increased approximately since 1913, in the case of the principal banks, from £2,900 to £7,200 (an increase of 148 per cent.), and in the case of the principal insurance companies from £4,600 to £8,600 (an increase of 87 per cent.). So that, notwithstanding what is said in this House, the salaries outside the Civil Service are very much higher than those in the Civil Service.
Here are some figures which throw further light on the subject. The total number of civil servants receiving a basic salary of £500 to £600 per annum is 2,770, and they represent 0·76 per cent of the total service. Only 1·64 per cent. of the total service receive £500 or more per annum. Surely there is nothing very extravagant in that. In railway decontrol, in the decontrol of agriculture and in relation to housing, the Government seem to be wiping their hands of responsibilities. They are leaving a very bad legacy to the country. What will be the effect on trade union leaders? There is not a day of the week when trade union leaders do not enter into agreements. They have to meet their men afterwards and to say, "We have entered into agreements, and it is your duty to keep them." If the Government get rid of their obligations in this way, imagine the trade union leader impressing a point of that sort on his men. The men will at once say, "If you still believe in the sanctity of agreements, it is time for you to clear out." It would be more satisfactory if the machinery of the Whitley Councils were allowed to operate in the case of the whole of the Civil Service.
:I hope the hon. Member who has just spoken will not misunderstand me if I say, speaking as one of the fairly few retired civil servants in this House, that if there is one thing in the world more than another which has destroyed and undermined Civil Services it is that the Legislature should interfere too much with the discretion of the Executive in making its own arrangements with its servants. That applies as much to attacks made upon the Civil Service by Members of this House as to defences of the Civil Service, such as that to which we have just listened. Anyone who has observed the politics of the United States knows that the worst kind of influence which you can have upon the morale and the integrity of the Civil Service is that it should have spokesmen for and against it in the legislature, that it should begin to put up people in this or any other House to defend it. On the particular point of the last speaker, as to whether Whitley Council agreements, as distinct from any ruling by the Government, should apply to salaries over £500 a year in the Civil Service, apart from the obvious difficulty of having the Whitley Council agreements apply to those salaries when you are drawing the employers' side of the Council from men whose salaries are between £500 and £2,000, I may say that certainly when it was originally formed the First Division Association of the Civil Service was, I think rightly, extremely reluctant to make anything like salary agreements a part of the objects of that association. I would be very sorry to see the First Division Association depart from that attitude for any mere feeling that perhaps they were leaving less well-paid brethren in the lurch. It is important that the First Division Association should maintain itself apart from any bargain, whether with the Whitley Council or with the Civil Service Arbitration Board.
The question of the reduction of bonuses is a very different one. On the whole, I think the proposal made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in regard to salaries over £500, is a fairly good proposal. In any case, I would much rather that this House told the Government, "You cannot have more than a certain amount for Civil Service salaries; pay them how you please," than see this House going into various manipulations and criticisms of particular wage arrangements or salary decisions which the Government might make. As to the Whitley Council, I say this: I heard in the House to-day an interjection, I think by the hon. Member for St. George's, Hanover Square (Mr. Erskine), "Drop the bonus." It cannot be stated too often that any attempt by the Government or by this House, one-sidedly, to throw over the bonus would quite definitely be a breach of faith in connection with an agreement solemnly entered into; but that is not to say that the Government or this House ought to take no steps to consult with the other side of the Whitley Council as to whether the operation of the agreement under present conditions is such as the staff side of the Whitley Council, viewing the matter as citizens as well as employés of the State, considered they can insist upon.
I hope the Chancellor's statement that he does not propose to touch salaries under £500 does not mean that he has decided not to submit the whole question of the remodelling, in certain respects, of this agreement to the Whitley Council. It is fairly well known what the situation is. It was supposed that the fluctuations in the cost of living would not be so great as they had been previously, and therefore revision on the basis of the cost of living index figure only took place as from one six months to another. It is too much to expect public opinion to approve of an arrangement which has this effect, that the Government introduce in March, or soon after, Estimates such as we have here, setting forth their requirements on the basis of an average cost of living over the whole year of 140 points above pre-War, when in the month of April, the very first month to which this arrangement applies, the figure varies. That produces a situation which must inevitably confuse public opinion. Therefore I make the suggestion, subject to all reserve, that in present circumstances, faced as we are by an appalling financial situation, the Government might very well submit to the Whitley Council a proposal that the agreement should be varied so as to provide for revisions on the basis of the cost of living every month or two months. I know the answer will be made, that for years these officials had no bonus at all, and that for another period, when the cost of living was going up, their bonus was a great deal below what would have been considered right in present conditions. I am not likely to forget that, having been a civil servant myself. Still, in the situation in which we are now, and in view of the Budget with which we know we will be faced next year, I think we should ask the Whitley Council to consider this matter. I hope the Committee has noticed this fact, that the Government has dealt fairly drastically with the war bonus on the higher salaries, and the net result is a saving in a full year of, I think, £500,000. I hope due attention will be paid to the fact that the great saving is not made on these salaries. Whether it is done for dramatic purposes and whether or not people like to see a person with £3,000 a year being deprived of war bonus, is another matter. But the big saving is not effected in that way.
The big saving is on the lower salaries, and while I should be the very last to suggest that men receiving £500 a year and under are in a comfortable position to-day, or that it does not involve a tremendous sacrifice on their part to ask them to give up anything, yet I do think, in view of the fact that any large saving lean only be effected in that way, the Government should suggest this general reconsideration to the Whitley Council. If we are to have a Whitley Council, and if it is to work well, it should not be merely a machine for making agreements from time to time at long intervals, those agreements resulting in a kind of fixed constitution, which no procedure by Government or by Parliament can vary. It is essential that the Whitley Council should be a body in continual session for the purpose of considering these matters. It must be, in some respects and for certain purposes, the managing body of the Civil Service, while not, of course, infringing on the responsibility of Government to the House and the State. Otherwise it will become a mere drag on the wheels and will not produce any better morale in the Civil Service; it will be of no direct utility except as bargaining machinery. That is not the idea, and never has been the idea, of the Whitley Council. We have to face a question which the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) did not face, in the course of his brilliant excursion through the various Departments, and that is as to how, as a matter of fact, reductions can be made in the Civil Service.
I agree with most of what the Chancellor has said about the exaggerations which are current about increases of staff in the Civil Service. I cannot, I must say, quite see how 10 per cent. on the pre-War staffs of the established Departments can cover all the increases, including shorthand-typists and so on. In these Treasury Estimates you have an assimilation of temporary staffs to permanent staffs continually going on. You have in these Estimates a process by which "temporary clerical and typing assistance" is reduced by £5,500 a year, but this blossoms again in another part of the Estimate into "clerks" and "second division clerks," where there is an increase of over £5,000, and "shorthand-typists" are increased by £2,678. You have that going on, and I cannot help thinking there is some misunderstanding in the idea that the whole total is only 10 per cent. As regards the high salaries, I am in entire agreement that it is very bad economy not to pay big salaries to your top men in an organised service of any kind. Take the permanent officials in the Treasury whose salaries are here enumerated. If you leave out the Parliamentary Secretaries and take only the basic salary, leaving aside the bonus, you will find that the salaries of the officials who are receiving £1,000 and over only represents 25 per cent. of the total amount of salary paid. That is in the Treasury, which is, after all, an economy Department, but the proportion is larger in the Treasury than it is in other Departments. In the Home Office it is only 16 per cent., and in the Foreign Office, only 10 per cent. It seems to me that the Treasury is trying to force economies by the establishment of a highly-paid staff whose business it is to interfere at all points with the finance and audits of other Departments, instead of making the other Departments responsible for keeping within a certain fixed sum. It seems to me they are spending large sums of money in controlling these Departments in detail.
That is an old fault of the Treasury. That kind of detailed niggling is what makes the cost of the Treasury and of things like the Finance Department so high. I hope we may have some assurance that the Treasury is not going in for all this highly paid control of detail but is going in for strict control of lump sums and strict, responsibility and accountability of the other Departments to see that they keep within their rations. Nothing is more essential to this country than the morale of the Civil Service, but you will not make that morale merely by paying a good salary or by setting up a Whitley Council. You will need a great deal closer touch and a great deal friendlier touch, if I may say so, between the Minister responsible for the Civil Service and the Civil Service as a whole. It has been a weakness in times past that the only Minister responsible for the Civil Service as a whole was also the Minister of the Department which was responsible for exercising the maximum of necessarily irritating control over every civil servant. I always looked forward when I was a civil servant to the time when in the Treasury there would be a Parliamentary Secretary responsible particularly for the leadership of the Civil Service, for the improvement and increase of its morale, and for the improvement of its technique and its general efficiency. I still hope that something of that nature may be devised, and I can imagine no person more fitted to undertake that task than the present Parliamentary Secretary.
:I listened very carefully to the very interesting speech made by my Noble Friend (Lord E. Percy), and I thought he uttered a profound truth when he said, in effect, that we shall never get true economy until we are able to ration the Departments to a certain sum of money. Until the Treasury are actually able to lay down a certain sum beyond which the Departments will not be allowed to go, we shall never get rigid economy in the Departments of the State. Personally, I am very disappointed at the speech made this afternoon by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We have been experiencing months of very severe drought, and we have had a few drops of rain during the last day or two. I think the Chancellor's concession this afternoon is very comparable to the very few drops of rain we have had after this tremendous drought. We want far more, and the very small sum of money which the Chancellor of the Exchequer holds out to us as a saving on these Estimates is, I think, far below the sum which we were entitled to expect, taking into account the burden of taxation at the present time.
The right hon. Gentleman rather built up his case on the assumption that there had been a very unfair attack made upon the Civil Service in the Press. I think it is a growing and a very bad habit on the part of Ministers, whenever they are in a difficulty in this House, or outside, always to begin to attack the Press and to say it is a Press agitation. I feel that they ought to justify their legislation on its own merits, and I do not think it is fair, when they have got a difficult case to meet, nearly always to come down to this House and say it is merely the result of an agitation on the part of the Press. I do not believe that anybody, certainly in this House, has ever attacked the Civil Service, and personally I have the greatest respect for the Civil Service. Like my Noble Friend who has just sat down, for some years I was a civil servant myself, in the Foreign Office, and I was receiving no salary at all, but I did learn during that period very much respect for the civil servants with whom I came into contact, and I believe that is the general feeling in the House to-day. There is not the smallest notion that the Civil Service as a service should be attacked at all. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in talking about the Civil Service, produced some very illogical comparisons. You cannot possibly compare a civil servant to somebody who is engaged in managing a business outside. We do not conduct the affairs of the State with the idea of making a profit. The Government is not a business concern, and I do not think we can possibly draw comparisons which really hold water between the ordinary highly paid civil servant and the manager of a business outside. We have also to remember that in the Civil Service there is security of tenure. I do not know for how much that counts in money every year, but it must count for a very great deal. The civil servants have also got pensions, and the managers of great businesses outside do not enjoy the prospect of a pension, and surely that counts for a great deal in salaries every year. Therefore, I do not feel that when the Chancellor was comparing the civil servants' salaries with the salaries obtainable by business men outside he was really drawing a logical comparison.
When I read through the Estimates, it always appears to me that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not really got his hand upon the expenditure of the various Departments. Take, for instance—I forget what Department it comes under; it is either the Office of Works or the Home Office—the Department which deals with special Commissions. There is a special Commission dealing with the ancient monuments of Essex, and this year these people are spending over £6,000 merely on bringing out an illustrated catalogue of the ancient monuments of Essex. It is a very small sum, but these small sums pile up, and when Income Tax is at 6s. in the £ you ought, anyhow, to postpone bringing out an illustrated catalogue of the ancient monuments of Essex at a cost of over £6,000. I will take another case. This year there has been appointed a historical adviser to the Foreign Office, and that gentleman is costing £1,200 a year, quite apart from his bonus. I cannot believe that a historical adviser to the Foreign Office is necessary at the present time. I happened to be at the Foreign Office, as I said. I was an unpaid clerk there for two years. I had to pass a stiff examination in history. I admit I just scraped through, and I very likely forgot a good deal of my history when I got there. But there are experts on history at the Foreign Office. The present Foreign Secretary is a great authority, and I say that, at the present moment, with Income Tax at 6s. in the £, we could dispense with a historical adviser to Lord Curzon, as I understand it is a personal appointment, and he acts as adviser to Lord Curzon on this question. What you want is the librarian to hunt up treaties. I am perfectly convinced you do not want a historical adviser.
Up to now the Committee has been discussing the question of bonus, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made certain concessions. I am not sure, as a matter of fact, he has not been too hard on the low salaries and not hard enough on the high salaries [An HON. MEMBER: "The same old tale."] Hon. Members who have spoken have made a very strong case about the bonus, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to a certain extent, has met their case, but I hope the Committee will not ignore another feature of the same question of salaries. I refer to what is known as assimilation pay. Assimilation pay has nothing whatever to do with bonus. Bonus is a War measure. It goes up and down with the cost of living; but this assimilation pay, which the Civil Service has been given, has nothing whatever to do with the War or the cost of living. It is a permanent pay, and, to my mind, it is entirely unjustifiable when you come to the higher salaries. What is the cost of this assimilation pay? In 1920 a Whitley Council sat to go into the whole question of the re-organisation of the Civil Service, and it was quite right that the Civil Service should be re-organised; but the result of that re- organisation has been, so far as I can see, that it has been merely a device for raising the whole of the salaries, practically, throughout the Civil Service. If the Civil Service had to be re-organised, I should have thought that the duty of the Minister ought to have been, if possible, not to increase, but to retrench, not to spend more money, but to economise. But it is perfectly clear—I have got the various reports here—that the Whitley Council sat down to re-organise the Civil Service with the knowledge—in fact, with the intention—that the expenditure would have to be increased. These are the words they use:
And so it set about reorganising the Civil Service, and there was a very large increase in all the salaries. I should also like to point out that this Whitley Council was composed wholly and exclusively of civil servants. Not a single person outside the Civil Service sat on that Committee. In fact, they take a certain amount of pride in the fact, because in their report they say: the Treasury said that it would not agree to this permanent increase of salaries unless an equivalent amount were saved by the Departments. They said it twice. They sent round a circular letter in May, 1920, and another circular letter about two months later. What was the result? The permanent increase of salaries amounted to £575,000; the Departments saved £300,000. That is to say, the State was landed with an increase of no less than £250,000 as a result of this Committee, on which only civil servants were allowed to sit. I say this is an absolute vicious system. I have nothing whatever to say against civil servants or the Civil Service, but why should highly-paid civil servants be picked out from the whole of the population, and treated really as if there had been no War? We are all suffering from the War. Our incomes, probably, are all lower than they were before the War. I do not see why civil servants should be picked out and treated quite differently from everybody else.
I should like to deal now strictly with the Treasury salaries before the House. We find that the year before the War the expense of the Treasury Departments was £106,000—I give rough figures. This year it is £385,000. That is to say, the Treasury, with its subordinate Departments, costs to-day nearly four times what it did before the War. And the whole explanation of this is an increase of staff and an increase of salaries. The year before the War, the Treasury staff numbered 141, and cost £56,000; this year it numbers 381, and costs £250,000, and it is going up year by year. If you compare this year with last year, the staff of the Treasury has increased by 34, that is to say, by 10 per cent., and in cost it has increased by over £20,000. Therefore the staff of the Treasury is not only doubled since the War, it is nearly three times more than it was in pre-War days. You had before the War one assistant-secretary, now you have 13. You had six principals, now you have 38. Another thing emerges quite clearly from these Treasury Estimates; that is, as I think my hon. Friend pointed out, that the temporary officials are now being changed into permanent officials in the various Departments of the Treasury.
I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will review the whole of this question; that he will do his best in this matter. When the Financial Secretary was sitting behind me here, a very short while ago, I always regarded him as one of the soundest economists in the House. If he is left to himself I am quite sure he will do his utmost to economise. I believe also that the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself will do his best in the direction of economising. I believe he means business. But I also believe the right hon. Gentleman may find the Departments too strong for him. I hope, however, both the right hon. Gentleman and the Financial Secretary will put their feet down, put up a stout fight, and do their utmost to reduce these very inflated staffs in all the Departments with which they come in contact. We are suffering from the enormous burden of taxation. I should hope that my hon. Friends of the Labour party will realise that this leads to unemployment—
:Through the War!
:That this is all leading to unemployment, and we will improve employment enormously by reducing our present burden of taxation, and we can reduce that burden by reducing expenditure. Therefore, I hope the Chancellor, in spite of the odium he may get from the various Departments that he is trying to cut down, will do his utmost to achieve a better state of things than in the past.
:The bonus has been dealt with by nearly everybody who has spoken. The only point I want to make in relation to the bonus is, that it is looked upon with very strong, very acute feeling by many people outside who have had no bonus, and whose income is much diminished. There is another point in regard to the salaries. I understand that some of the salaries have not only been materially increased, but the bonus has been increased on the top of them. I should like to know something about that, for general statements have been made that salaries have been increased, and not only the 45 per cent. bonus added to the original salaries, but added to the enlarged salaries.
A point that has already been suggested, and which I wish to emphasise, is a general review of the situation by the Chancellor with special reference to one, or two points. The time comes in every business and undertaking when there is need to review the salary list. The time has come to review our salary list. But there are other things besides that to review. You find civil servants, and not of the higher grade, only working six hours a day. How, therefore, can you expect other people to work eight? Take, again, the question of holidays. In some of the lower grades of the Civil Service, not, perhaps the 35s. a week people, nor, perhaps, those under a couple of hundred a year, but certainly those who have £200 and somewhat above, we find that they have seven or eight weeks' holiday. They do not take their holidays as in a commercial house, where the arrangement is made to suit the work, and each having a holiday in turn. They can take a day, or a week, or a month, whenever they think proper. To do this you must have a very large overplus of people in the Civil Service. This is one of the things to which I would draw the attention of the Secretary to the Treasury. People in business wonder how it is possible! The holidays, I think, are excessive, and the hours are too short.
I hope that these matters will be looked into. We have to reorganise business. We have to reorganise the whole of our industry. There is not the slightest reason why we should not start at the top with the Civil Service. Perhaps they will be rather offended if I call it an industry! Those concerned would probably prefer to call it a profession, but, whatever you call it, industry has got to find the money to run it. You have crippled people who had the money, and many people who were living on their money have now to go and work—
:It will do them good.
:Perhaps, but my point is this: that with these people working there will enter a factor in competition. These who are compelled to work who did not work before will help to lower wages, and I am not at all anxious that low wages should obtain. I have always believed in reasonable wages. I want, however, to draw attention more particularly to these various points arising out of the reorganisation of the whole matter. Supposing the civil servants work another hour per day, making seven. That will be a considerable increase, and would allow a reduction of staff. Again, my experience of civil servants has been this: Whenever I have come in contact with Government Departments and Government officials, I have found they would not undertake responsibility. The matter at issue is bandied about from pillar to post, and you seldom or never get finality until you reach absolutely the top. This is one of the things to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer partially alluded. He spoke of people in large banks, and insurance companies, and railways getting bigger salaries than the civil servants. But these people have to take responsibility. They have to come to decisions; and this, too, with people on very much smaller salaries comparatively. In reorganising I think you have to consider the amounts that you are paying, and also you will have to consider the hours, and the holidays, and the other matters I have mentioned.
:With regard to the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I understood him to suggest that all salaries of civil servants of £2,000 a year will soon have the war bonus cut from them. I should rather like to know exactly what has happened to the recommendations of the Committee presided over by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith). Certain recommendations were made with regard to salaries in the Civil Service of over £2,000 a year, and there were other rather doubtful and dubious recommendations taken up by the Government. They were permanent increases of salaries. I should like to make a protest in regard to what the right hon. Gentleman said on this point, because I do not want it to be thought that these salaries are coming back to pre-War rates, because they have already had a permanent increase. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not include me in the statement he made about attacks on the Civil Service. I have never made a personal attack on the Civil Service, nor have I ever heard any hon. Member of this House do it. I have made an attack on the money spent.
As regards the Civil Service, it seems ridiculous to compare it with industry, because they are not of the same status. A man in business takes a great responsibility and puts his capital into the business. He has to occupy a post of great responsibility, and if he does not do his work efficiently he gets the sack. The civil servant does not take the responsi- bility, and he cannot get the sack. In many cases those things are worth several thousands a year. With his position more or less permanent, the civil servant has a sense that he is free from all the cares of life, and feels that he is there as long as he lives, and he knows that at the end of his days he will get a pension. A man in business gets no pension, and he has to save and make provision for the future. A civil servant need not save from his salary at all, because after he has retired he will get a pension.
Another point the Chancellor made was that it was the policy of the Government that necessitated the employment of a larger number of civil servants at the present time in Government offices, and not that any civil servant was incompetent, or that we required two people to do the same work. It is the policy of the Government that we are attacking. I have no doubt that a great many civil servants are being kept on to carry out the Measures which it has now been found necessary to repeal. No doubt that policy is keeping a lot of civil servants busy. It is the policy of the Government at home and abroad that we are attacking, and this keeps those civil servants unnecessarily employed. As regards the staffs of the Ministry, we shall never get any economy whatsoever until we reduce all the staffs back to the 1914 level. They have got to come back to that level in numbers. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer states that, as regards the Ministries existing before the War and now, there is only 10 per cent. more officials employed, he forgets all the Ministries that have grown up like mushrooms since the beginning of the War. In the Food Department we are told that there are 1,344 officials, although that Ministry was abolished many months ago. In the Shipping Ministry, which was also abolished some time ago, we have 677 officials employed. That has all got to be done away with. It has got to be done now, and not in six months or twelve months' time. As regards the Shipping Department, what is the good of saying it is paying its way because it is just existing for itself? It would yield, perhaps, a handsome reward if there were only 100 instead of 677 officials employed. Everything is duplicated.
With regard to the holidays the civil servants get, and the hours they work, it is most important we should realise that point in regard to the number of officials there are employed. In the Board of Agriculture there are 84 officials receiving at present salaries of £1,000 a year or over, whilst in 1914 there were only 11. It seems to me quite clear that that cannot be allowed to continue. What effect will it have on industry where we are at present having a reduction in wages? This is happening in every industry. Do not those men whose salaries are coming down know what salaries are being paid to civil servants? What effect is that going to have upon them? In my view the present Government, at the end of its term of office will have created more unrest in this country than any other Government that has ever ruled in this country.
Since the Armistice the present Government have raised over £3,000,000,000 in taxation. Besides that enormous sum, by the sale of War stores they have accumulated £582,000,000 up to the 30th June last. That is all working capital taken from the nation. It is taxation that has been wrenched from the taxpayer. In spite of all that, I understand that the National Debt since the Armistice has increased by £250,000,000, although all that money has been taken from the taxpayer. I do not think any Government could have any greater condemnation than is shown in those figures. Take one instance of expenditure which has been mentioned many times in this House, that is the expenditure on Palestine and Mesopotamia, or what is now called Iraq. We have spent no less than £137,000,000 there.
:I do not think the Treasury are responsible for expenditure in Mesopotamia.
:The Circular states that a reduction is to take place in the Colonial Office Vote, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to the cost of the fighting services indirectly in connection with the question of economy.
:I am much obliged to the hon. and gallant Gentleman, but we are discussing the Treasury Vote now. No doubt the hon. Gentleman only wished to use Mesopotamia as an illustration.
:I was pointing out that all the money we have spent in Mesopotamia we shall never see again, and it has been thrown away. I will not continue on the point of Mesopotamia and Palestine, as I have been ruled out of order. I will just take the recollection of the House back to two statements of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. What they have said, I think, shows the country the whole attitude of the present Government. The last Chancellor of the Exchequer said, in absolute contradiction of what Mr. Gladstone stated, that it was not his business to force economy on his colleagues, although Mr. Gladstone used to fight every penny which was being spent. When we turn to the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, he said, in making the principal speech he has made since assuming office, that with regard to taxation the people must grin and bear it. I cannot see how we can ever get economy until we have a Chancellor of the Exchequer who will force economy. I should like to draw the attention of the House to the address to Congress by President Harding. In that address he said that the revival of trade in America would never come until taxation in that country was reduced. If that is true of America, is it not almost doubly true of this country, as the taxation here is greater per head than it is in America? Trade will never come to this country until we reduce taxation to such an extent that you allow the saving of working capital to get industry going. Months and years roll by, but we do not get that reduction of taxation which is the key to the future prosperity of that country.
:I have got to controvert the main thesis of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's whole theory—which was that you should pay servants of the State, who have deserved well of the State, by giving them large sums of money. I am afraid I must controvert that from the very bottom. The right hon. Gentleman says that those who have managed the wonderfully complicated machines of the Government service should be rewarded by raising their salaries, and that their salaries should bear some relation to the kind of salaries that men of similar abilities would get in the public life of the City—of Lombard Street or in the great business concerns. To expose this fallacy there is only one small thing to be put. There is, I suppose, one public servant upon whom there rests ten times more work and responsibility and whose day is more harassed one hundred times than any other public servant—I mean the Prime Minister. On the theory which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has broached, he says we should endeavour to correlate the salary of the Prime Minister to the enormously greater responsibility and trouble which he has to bear than any other person in the world. Now, for example, the responsibility which Mr. Rockfeller has to bear is as nothing compared with what rests upon the right hon. Gentleman who has to manage the British Empire. Upon the theory which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has broached, we should correlate the salary of our Prime Minister to one of the great American millionaires, or one of the great English millionaires. Would anybody propose that the salary of the Prime Minister should be raised to £1,000,000 or so, and thus correlated to that of the largest business men whose responsibilities are infinitely less than those of the Prime Minister. The mere statement of that will completely show that the whole theory of making the salaries of the servants of the State correspond with the salaries of great business men is a fallacy.
I will tell the Committee how the servants of the State should be paid. I am somewhat of an idealist, and I do not think it should be done by giving them large sums of money. If there existed a fairy queen, or king, out of a tale, who could go about giving all deserving people large sums of money, there might be a reason for giving public servants very large sums of money. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not possess a Fortunatus purse, which is always replacing the gold taken out of it. He has rather a Balzac's peau de chagrin, which was always shrinking. The revenue at the present moment is shrinking, and how does one suppose it is possible to go about rewarding servants of the State by paying ever-rising salaries. It cannot be done. There was another argument which he produced. It was that the underpaid servant of the State was left in an undignified condition in relation to others who were receiving larger salaries, though they held less important positions. That sounded very plausible, but are there not Government Departments where the heads of the Departments are receiving much less than the higher officials in them? Unless I am misinformed, there is, for example, the head of the Department of Education, who has 11 or 12 subordinates under him receiving higher salaries than himself. I do not think that anybody imagines that his position as a servant of the State is prejudiced, or that the weight he carries in the country is one ounce less, because there are 11 or 12 of his subordinates receiving larger salaries. As I have said, I am a bit of an idealist, and it seems to me that servants of the State are to be paid, not primarily by handing over large sums of money to them, but by two things—the consciousness that they have done their duty, and the respect of those who have to do with them. There are plenty of men in the Civil Service who serve on these lines. I have not run across the other kind of person who is always grumbling at someone having received 132 per cent. bonus whereas he had only got 130. Such people may exist, but one does not often come across them.
I rather believe in the idealist who wishes to serve the State and is willing to accept what the State can afford to give him, and does not want to blackmail the State as if he were a trade unionist, and to get every possible penny from it. I do not see in the least why some general rule should not be made that all salaries as they exist at the present time be reduced to a sum representing a moderate percentage over the salaries of 1914. You must make some allowance. But if you are going to spare large classes of the Civil Service from all the aftermath of war, then you are dealing an injustice to the rest of the nation, which is receiving no compensation for the trouble it has gone through. To tax a man whose income is the same as in 1914 in order that a bonus may be given to public servants whose incomes have been raised over the 1914 point, seems to me absolutely iniquitous. What we have to face is that we have a sinking revenue, and for the salaries of certain individuals of the higher class to be raised at this particular moment is insane. The whole thesis comes from the unfortunate idea which seems to pervade the mind of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that when you reward a public servant you can only do so by paying him more money. [An HON. MEMBER: "Or by starving him."] No, I do not think it is a case of starvation where a civil servant earning £2,000 a year is concerned. The present situation is governed by the fact that the revenue is going down. You cannot afford to give bonuses to anyone, you cannot go about like a fairy godmother handsomely rewarding the servants of the State if you are to do it at the cost of other peoples excessive taxation. The salvation of the State and its finance lies in a ruthless policy of cut, cut, cut.
:I am afraid that many of us cannot address ourselves to this question from the attitude of the idealist who sets aside all the realities and facts lying behind the subject now before the Committee. The hon. Gentleman who last spoke has a considerable reputation in the realms of history, but if one pays a visit to a bookstall and notices the price of books he realises how they have been raised by the increasing cost of material and labour. It may also be the fact that historians themselves are not content with the fees which they were accustomed to receive in 1914. But whatever the cause, it is impossible to escape the realities of these economic facts. We do not approach this question in any party sense. It is not a party subject. We must approach it in the spirit of fair and reasonable employers of labour, as, after all, civil servants of all ranks are our servants and we are their employers. I had a little experience in the work of a very exhaustive inquiry in connection with the Civil Service Commission which laboured for some two years before the War. Our task was to investigate with regard to the whole working of the Civil Service system, to inquire into conditions of employment, the salaries and general terms of the service, and to make recommendations. Some of the recommendations of that Commission have been acted upon. I think many more might have found their way into practice had it not been for the War which intervened. I was satisfied from the information and facts revealed by that inquiry that the great majority of men in the Civil Service were not being treated as well or paid as fairly as corresponding employés in any similar occupation in private service with s which they can be fairly compared. You cannot walk into the Civil Service without some qualification. It is not a case of doing the job. It is a case of getting it. You must show your fitness by character and by proof of ability before you are allowed an opportunity to serve.
I reject the view that even in these hard times, when it is so difficult to make ends meet in the national balance-sheet, the public service must be underpaid, although not undervalued, because it is difficult to find the money. The fact that we have to pay it or to produce the necessary revenue to enable the State to pay its wage bill is no justification whatever for reducing salaries, unless there are other good reasons for doing it. Apart from the substance of the question whether it is right or wrong to reduce those salaries—and as to that I shall have to say a word later on—an objection which has a great deal of point in it is as to the way in which it is being done, and it is quite likely that the Government will hear more on that point before the question is finished. Many of our industrial and other troubles have been due to mere points of procedure, and to the way in which people have proceeded in the handling of the matter. Many serious disputes have occurred in this country because of a lack of necessary foresight and precaution in the steps taken for the attainment of the end in view, and the great thing in all these matters is to carry with you the people concerned, and at no stage to leave them out of consultation—not to decide on a certain thing possibly after consultation with others, and then, after the decision has been come to, to invite their approval. The Civil Service has had good cause to expect a different procedure in the matter of the proposals submitted to-day by the Chancellor of the Exchequer than the one the right hon. Gentleman has followed.
The Whitley Councils in relation to the Civil Service were not set up in a hurry. It took the Government of the day a long time to put into practice what it had called upon employers to do and eventually what is known as the Whitley Councils were set up. I have heard for the first time to-day that certain classes or grades of civil servants were expressed ruled out of the provisions of the Whitley Council machinery because of their salaries. I find nothing at all in any of the documents relating to this question which justifies the assertion that a man earning over £l,000 a year, or even civil servants of the first division cannot be subject to the machinery and general practice of Whitley Council revision. I do not know whether the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) has a right to speak for the first division of civil servants on the point now under review. I know he was associated with them, but whether he had authority to put forward the view he has expressed on their behalf I cannot say. I venture, however, to disagree with him when he says that men in the first division of the Civil Service must have regard to and treat their remuneration and salaries as of secondary importance to the Service itself or to the duties they discharge. Even men with substantial salaries are, like the rest of us, influenced by human considerations—by circumstances at home, by obligations, domestic and other; and even those men must be concerned with what this House, or those who may be in authority over them as Parliamentary chiefs, may do or say in relation to their salaries. I have heard a great deal in this Debate about the number of men employed, and the hon. Member for Thanet (Mr. E. Harmsworth) gave figures showing what a large number of men there were on the list rendering service in connection with the various Ministries. How can any one of us say whether that number is too large or too small, and what is the value of a figure like that unless there is behind it some real knowledge of its bearing on the situation? As I have said, I acted with others in an investigation which took more than two years, and our greatest difficulty was to find out whether or not a given number of civil servants was adequate for the particular volume of labour which had to be taken in hand. It is the most difficult thing in the world, and we ought never to mislead ourselves by taking a figure and saying that 100 or 1,000 may be employed in connection with such-and-such a service. Let us find out whether it is adequate.
:Where is the money coming from to pay for them?
:I am coming to that. It is our business to find it. If we insist upon the work being done, as we do, and the State expects to see the work done, then, like any private employer, the State must pay for it.
:The country.
:I mean, of course, the country. I used the word "State" as meaning the taxpayer. All of us, more or less, find the money to pay these wages. If you insist upon the service you must pay for it. That, surely, is not a proposition which any Britisher would think of rejecting. Let me refer to the questions put day by day in this House. Few private Members, I suppose, who put these questions, have any idea of the enormous amount of labour performed day by day in the various offices of the Government merely for the purpose of getting together the material to answer their questions. I daresay the hon. Member for Thanet, if he were to count up the questions that he himself has put, and properly put, and were to put side by side, if it could be got, the figure in pounds which it has cost the State to give him that information, he might even have his views affected on the question of national economy. In short, you cannot quench this thirst for information except in "Bradburys." You must find the money if you are going to demand the information. Any one of us has a right to complain unless this army of civil servants is always ready with whatever information we want, and in a fit and well equipped position to render such service as any Department may demand of them. I say, therefore, that I do not know whether the number is too large or not, but, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer were here, I should put to him the advisability of taking any step that he can to ascertain the truth in respect of this question of numbers. I understood him to refer to some kind of investigation that was going on. I should have been more satisfied if a more ample statement had been given to the Committee as to what that investigation is. What does it aim at, and in what way is it proceeding? Does it merely relate to questions of remuneration, or will it deal with this question of numbers as well as the question of the general conditions of service?
:May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he considers that the numbers of officials at the Admiralty and the War Office, as compared with the requirements before the War, do not suggest that there are a great deal too many officials there at the present time?
:I quite admit that those figures, especially as the War has been actually over for so long, are rather startling, and, like other Members, I should have been glad to have seen a much more substantial reduction in all the Ministries created in consequence of the War or largely expanded because of War services. I admit all that, but I am rather addressing myself to the question how the action of the Government, as announced to-day, is going to affect individual civil servants whose salaries or wages are to be substantially reduced. I will go as far as anyone can in justice to revise the numbers and to dispense with unnecessary men; but I say that, so far as you require the services of men and keep them in your service, it is only proper that they should be fairly and reasonably paid. The Chancellor of the Exchequer made announcements to-day which will stagger a considerable number of civil servants who are to be the victims of the policy which has been announced. As I understand the announcement, it is roughly this: In the case of the men whose salaries are below £500, and who form the larger part—indeed, I understand, some 90 odd per cent. of the total list of persons affected—they are to be subject only to those reductions in wages, when we reach September, which are automatically brought about by the operation of the agreement entered into between themselves and those who acted on behalf of the Government—entered into, that is to say, through the machinery of the Whitley Committee. In the case of that body, I have no doubt that they will feel the pinch of the reductions, like all wage-earners, but I believe they will admit that they are being fairly treated in accordance with the arrangement which has been entered into. The same cannot be said of those who are to suffer, as I think, personally, excessive reductions. Let me give some figures by way of illustration. According to the agreement, as it has so far existed, a man with a salary of £500 would, in September, have to submit to a reduction of £86 on his bonus. That is a pretty substantial reduction, but, in addition to that, the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to add a further reduction of £32, making a total of £118 in the case of the bonus of that individual. In the case of a man whose salary is £700, the automatic reduction on his bonus will be £110, and the supplementary reduction, £62—
:That is on his bonus, but what is the bonus?
:That has already been given. In addition to that £110, in the case of a man whose salary is £700 apart from bonus, he is subject to a further reduction of £62, making £172 in all.
:What is the bonus on which that reduction of £110 is made?
:If the hon. Member has followed this Debate, he will, surely, by this time have informed himself generally of the facts in relation to bonuses and the percentages along which they travel. Let me make it plain that I am dealing with the figures in relation to the bonus of a man on a fixed salary, and I am giving the fixed salary and the amount of reduction which is to be imposed upon the bonus. In the case of a man whose salary is £900, the reduction upon his bonus by agreement is £135, and there is to be a further supplementary reduction of £125, or £260 in all, and so on right to the figure of the man whose salary is £1,000. Hon. Members are forgetting that the class affected by these figures is the class whose condition has been so very frequently used wherewith to disprove the spokesmen of the Labour party. We have been asked to think of the men of the middle classes with their peculiar difficulties. We have tried to think of them and have never sought to do them an injustice. I ask hon. Members in other parts of the House not to be in such a hurry to do them an injustice now. They may accept it as a just thing to suffer the degree of reduction which will come about as the result of the agreement entered into, but the statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to-day, given no doubt as a concession to the clamour for economy, include in my judgment great injustice to the class so often pictured to us as the class that has suffered most as the result of the War.
:A very small section.
:It may be a small section, but the hon. Member is well aware how fast a bad example travels, and once this step is taken and the example is set by the State, the State being commonly looked upon as a model employer, you have given every kind of reason and argument to the private employer immediately to reduce the salaries or wages of the persons he employs. This middle class, affected by this scale between £500 and £1,000, must consist in the main of persons who have to dress well, and live well, and spend a great deal upon education. I ask them not to forget that this class has suffered, of course, like all other classes, a very heavy reduction, because of the operations of our Income Tax. They are paying, I suppose, 6s. in the £, if not on all, certainly on most of what they get, so that upon this heavy tax and upon this reduction, which they are to suffer in September, there comes now the Chancellor of the Exchequer with his supplementary reduction upon their bonus. That is not a just way of treating a class which is necessarily highly skilled in the performance of these responsible duties. These, to a great extent, are men between £1,000 and £2,000, who must show exceptional ability. It is an affront to these men to assume that once they have got into the service they can remain in it whether they are qualified or not. They cannot. They must continue to display a good deal of ability of a high administrative order, qualities of initiative and of directorship and capacity for the framing and the carrying out of plans and scheme, without which government would be impossible, and no matter which party may be in power and have to conduct generally the affairs of State, each party in turn must rely upon the brains of its civil servants of all degrees and classes, and this class, which distinctly represents among the best of the middle class of our country,, is not being fairly treated by the announcement the Chancellor of the Exchequer has given us to-day.
10.0 P.M.
Having treated of these general points, let me refer to a particular point as an illustration. The right hon. Gentleman, as an instance of the way in which work has to be performed, mentioned the war medals which had to be provided, and gave it out that a considerable number of clerks and staffs were employed in the proper and accurate distribution of this large number of war medals. I have here the information of a particular case which tells me that the man in charge of this staff gets only £182 10s. as a salary. Of course, he has his war bonus, such as it is, upon that figure, but he has had no increase in salary for 15 years, and the War Office has refused to classify him among the ordinary clerks or place him on a scale which would entitle him to the maximum of £250 a year, so that work of that kind, of national importance and highly prized, both by the House and by the recipients of the medals, it would appear, is done, to some extent, under conditions, I will not say which approximate to sweating, but certainly which do not entitle this House to regard itself as the representative of the model employer. My hon. Friend opposite, referring generally to this question, recently said:
:I want to say a word on a class of civil servants who get no bonus. I mean the ex-service men who have been employed temporarily and who therefore have not had the advantage of the special conditions which were only extended to the men who had the advantage of being in the Civil Service while the ex-service men were risk- ing their lives. I only wish my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare) had been able to be here, because he has taken very great interest in the matter and could speak in much more detail than I can. Unfortunately he was called away and had to hand over this case to my far less competent hands. During the War the men in the Civil Service consolidated their position and, very naturally, the ex-service men who have been taken in have had up against them this solid, vested interest, which cannot very easily be displaced. There are among the temporary staff, apart from the women, 55,000 ex-service men and about 57,000 who never fought. In the last fortnight about 2,000 of these ex-service men have been put under notice, and I should like to ask the Financial Secretary if he can give us any figure which we can compare in the case of the non-service men. I am told that preference is being shown to the non-service temporary staff. The giving of notice to these 2,000 men is not the whole story, because a great many more men have been taken out of the temporary staff and put on the casual staff, where they can be got rid of on a week's notice. I am told that 8,000 or 9,000 men who fought in the War have been treated in that way in the last few weeks.
The trouble is that the Whitley Council did not satisfactorily deal with the question of the ex-service men. They were designed, very properly, during the War for two interests: the State interest on the one hand and the employés interest on the other. We have not a unified interest on the staff side, and we have this cross current of the ex-service men. The Whitley Council machinery is not suitable where you get a minority of that kind, with divergent and special interests. Existing organisations are naturally entrenched on the Whitley Council. Their Committees, or whoever choose the representatives, are, in an overwhelming degree, made up of non-service men, and they, naturally, have to support the position of the non-service men as against the ex-service men of the temporary staff who have been taken in since the War. The National Whitley Council and the Departmental Councils are composed in the vast majority of the representatives of, permanent civil servants. On the National Whitley Council there are only two seats allotted to the whole of the temporary staff, and of these two seats the ex-service men have not been able to get even one because the seats are filled by the Temporary Staff Confederation composed of all the associations who have any members on the temporary staff. That means that power is exercised by great bodies such as the Civil Service Federation, the Civil Service Alliance, by other organisations representing women clerks, and the National Union of Clerks, who have a large proportion of their membership outside the Civil Service. Very properly the Whitley Councils cannot consider any staff grievance unless it is brought up by the staff side, and as the ex-service men have no representation on the Whitley Council their claims cannot be satisfactorily dealt with. They are up against a ring of those who consolidated their position during the War, and they are also up against the very natural reluctance on the part of departmental officers to part with men who have been with them for years, even if it is in favour of the claims of men who were fighting when the others were occupying safe billets.
I do urge upon the Government the claims of these ex-service men. It is very difficult for them to find employment outside, because since the War experience and knowledge have been tremendously specialised, industries have changed, and it is by no means easy for these men to fill the positions they occupied before 1914. Of all employers the State ought to be the last to discharge ex-service men before alternative employment is secured. There are two ways in which the Financial Secretary can help. The Government have admitted that the Whitley Council did not adequately protect the ex-service men, by setting up the Lytton Committee, and I am glad to know that they have, in theory at least, adopted the recommendations of that Committee. I am told that those recommendations are not, in practice, observed as they should be in the Departments. The Committee recommended that there should be Investigating Boards on which there should be an ex-service man in each Department, a woman, and a representative of the head of the staff. I am told that in a great many cases that has not been done, and that very little notice has been taken of what was laid down in the Lytton Report. I also urge upon the Financial Secretary that ex-service men should be given some representation on the Joint Substitution Board. I understand that at present it is difficult for them to get adequate consideration of their claims.
I would remind the Financial Secretary of what I hear from all sides as to the preferential treatment given to the conscientious objector over the man who fought for his country. I am told that the conscientious objectors have all been forgiven; they have all been taken back into the Civil Service, whereas those who in the early days of stress left the Civil Service, sometimes to the inconvenience of their departmental chiefs, and went out to fight, have been rigidly excluded from any reinstatement. The crime in most of these cases has been technically the same, disobedience. Those who disobeyed the tribunal and who ignored the call of patriotism have been freely forgiven, while those, on the other hand, who disobeyed their departmental chiefs, who were ashamed to stand aside when other men were fighting, have been permanently cast out. I do not know how far this is by accident or how far it is by design, but I beg the hon. Gentleman to go into it and to extend the same measure of forgiveness to those civil servants who fought as has been given to the conscientious objector. The Financial Secretary has a vast number of threads to get between his fingers in the Departments, but I ask him to go into this question and to see that the recommendations of the Lytton Committee are carried out, and that the dice are not loaded by those who occupied a safe position throughout the War against the interests of those who went out to fight.
:As the Debate has turned largely on the question of the war bonus I have a suggestion to make which has not been made hitherto. I have always been against this system of war bonus. It is more than a year ago since I criticised the Government for the way in which they were increasing the salaries of many civil servants, and, in addition, giving them a war bonus on the increased scale. My object is the same as that which has been voiced several times to-night. It is unjust to tax a man to pay a war bonus to someone else. It is adding insult to injury to expect a man to pay heavy taxes for the sake of providing a bonus which he does not get for the benefit of someone else who is in nine cases out of ten infinitely better off than he is himself socially and financially. In addition we must not lose sight of the fact when dealing with increases in wages and bonus that increasing the wages of one particular section of the community is equivalent to decreasing the wages of all the rest, because by doing so you increase the demand for their own commodities owing to the appreciated purchasing power of the other men's money. Unless you increase the wages or salaries of the entire nation it is unjust to increase the wages or salaries of one particular section only. The Chancellor of Exchequer in justifying the increases drew a comparison between the increases in the Civil Service and the enormous increases which have been and were being paid by private employers. I submit that the cases are not at all analogous. The private employer is playing with his own money. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is playing with the taxpayers' money and it becomes him to be circumspect and conservative in dealing with what is or ought to be to him a sacred trust. The Civil Service can never hope to compete with the private employer. We do not want super-men in Government offices. They have not been a great success in this House and it will be better for the country to leave the super-men in industry and commerce and endeavour to retain in the civil servant that transparent honesty which has characterised him hitherto.
Now for my suggestion. I agree entirely with the reductions which have been proposed in salaries of over £2,000 a year, though I agree that they will work hardly in some cases. I also agree that salaries below £500 a year should not be touched, other than by the natural reduction of the bonus which corresponds with the decrease in the cost of living. But I do submit that at the extreme end of that scheme there are cases in which large economies might be effected for the taxpayer without causing any great hardship or suffering. There are employed in Government offices to-day a large number of young men, and still a certain number of girls, who have remained on from the War-time, who are under 20 or 21 years of age. These people have no responsibility. They are not married, and the cost of living has not affected them to anything like the same extent as it has affected responsible householders with families. Their normal salaries vary from 30s. to £3 a week. With the War bonus on the scale mentioned by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the salaries will be anything from £3 10s. to £8 a week. Those people have no responsibility. They probably live at home, and if they do not it would probably be a good deal better for them if they did. They may pay £1 or 30s. a week to their parents for board and lodging, which means that they have something between £3 and £6 a week with which to play, and that is a great deal more than is good for a boy or girl of that age.
It is not good for any boy, still more for any girl, to be independent of parents at that time of life. It is not good for them to tell their parents to go to the devil whenever their parents remonstrate with them on their manners or morals or lack of both. The reason why we are constantly having introduced into this House Criminal Law Amendment Bills is that so many of these young people are independent financially of their parents, and that if their parents do not like the way they act they go from home and live independently of their parents. The suggestion I make is that the salaries should be dealt with as suggested by the Chancellor of the Exchequer with the exception that the bonus paid to civil servants under 21, 22, or 23 years of age should be cut to the extent of at least 50 or 60 per cent. By doing that, the Government will afford considerable relief to the taxpayers and will inflict no hardship upon the victims. It would go far to do what is urgently necessary, that is to improve the moral tone of the young people of the country.
:This Debate, as indeed is not unusual in connection with a Treasury Vote, has ranged over a sphere so wide as almost to dislocate the intelligence of the one who has sought conscientiously to follow it. Undoubtedly the subject of principal interest, which has been discussed at the greatest length, has been the subject of the Civil Service bonus. I found so much with which to agree in the speech delivered recently by the right hon. Member for Miles Platting (Mr. Clynes), that I feel it is ungracious to any extent to quarrel with him; but he referred to the announcement made by my right hon. Friend and proceeded to challenge the procedure of that announcement. He challenged it, if I may say so, with something of a menace in his challenge. What is there amiss in the procedure adopted to-day? To what tribunal, to what authority should this announcement as to the bonus be made before the House of Commons? I believe it hangs in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman that this matter should have been raised, in the first place, in the National Whitley Council. If that be so I think it is one consequence of a misconception which I have discovered underlying the whole of his observations on this subject. He confessed indeed that before to-day he was not aware that salaries in excess of £500 a year were not the subject of discussion by the National Whitley Council. That being so nothing is more probable than that he should suffer under a further misconception as to the whole of the procedure.
I discovered that misconception in the speech of another hon. Member, the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Charles Edwards). It cannot be too clearly apprehended, in order to follow the manner in which these things have to be dealt with, that there are two totally different areas concerned in the salaries of the Civil Service. There is the agreement area, affecting salaries under £500 a year, which are a proper subject for consideration by the National Whitley Council. There is another area, the area of salaries over £500 a year, which has never been submitted to the National Whitley Council—not only never have been but can never be, and for this reason: If you submit salaries of over £500 to the National Whitley Council, you are calling upon the official side of the Council to perform an impossible task—the task of themselves deliberating on and deciding their own salaries. That, it cannot be too clearly understood, has never been done. The only salaries considered by the official side of the National Whitley Council are those which do not concern their own class, namely, the salaries under £500. I have to maintain, in opposition to the arguments advanced by the right hon. Gentleman, that what has been done in this connection, represents the only possible procedure. The bonus scheme, as regards salaries of over £500, was never considered by the National Whitley Council, and, if I may say so, it is in no way concerned with them. A scheme was adopted, on the example of the National Council scheme, by His Majesty s Government and applied by them to salaries over £500 as a Ministerial act, and it stands to reason that what has been done by Ministerial act can be undone by Ministerial act. The same procedure which it was proper to follow in adopting a scale with reference to salaries of over £500 is also proper to follow in modifying or altering that scale. These observations are in no way addressed to the merits of the position, but only to the criticism advanced in regard to the procedure adopted in connection with this proposal. Before I finish with the observations made by the right hon. Member for Miles Platting, let me say that to some extent he produced an atmosphere less clear than that which is usually produced by his analyses, in reference to the figures of the reduction which will come about on the 1st of September. I will give one or two figures, by means of which I think I can put it in a rather clearer manner and show the Committee in what respect, and to what extent, these reductions will take place. My object in doing so, is to illustrate that, while the reductions suggested by the new scheme and what has been termed the "super cut" proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer are, no doubt, very substantial, and call upon these higher civil servants to make a sacrifice commensurate with the sacrifices nearly all classes in the country are now called upon to make, and while the proposal is, no doubt, serious in that respect, nevertheless, it is, as regards the total salaries which are being paid, not what one might call too brutally serious. Take the case of a man with a basic salary of £700. His present total emoluments are £1,219, and under the normal cut he will come down to £1,109. Under the normal cut, plus the "super cut," he will come down to £1,048, so that the reduction in his salary is from £1,219 to £1,048.
:Taking the case my hon. Friend has just put, that of a man with a basic salary of £700, whose present total emoluments are £1,200 odd, may I ask, if that man retires, on what basis will his pension be assessed? Is it based on the £700 or on the total emoluments which he now receives?
:The rule which at present applies is that the pension is based on the total emoluments. In order to show, in a practical way, what the effect of the cut and the "super cut" will be, take the case of a man whose salary is £1,000 a year. His present total emoluments are £1,690, and under the normal cut he will come down to £1,544. Under the normal cut, plus the super cut, he will come down to £1,381, so that the reduction is about £300. I have quoted these figures to show that the result of the two cuts, one upon the other, is undoubtedly very substantial, but it is not more, and it does not bring the salaries down more in proportion than the sort of reduction which we are used to, looking broadly over the whole field of civil life, and that, as I have ventured to interpret to myself, is the intention announced in the scheme of my right hon. Friend in his opening observations.
:Can the hon. Gentleman tell us what is the total reduction in respect of war bonus on these salaries over £500 a year?
:I think the figure was given by my right hon. Friend. The only figures I can give on the spur of the moment are these, that the total reduction under the normal cut over the whole field on 1st September will be £10,000,000 or £11,000,000, and the total reduction under the super cut on salaries over £500, in a full year, in addition to the normal cut, is £500,000, and for the remaining six months of this year about £250,000.
:The £10,000,000 or £11,000,000 has already been discounted?
:Yes, that it so. Now let me pass from the general argument to one or two observations that have been passed in the course of the Debate in connection with those specific increases in salary which were the results of the advice of a certain Committee to which, in order to avoid misconceptions, I will give no name, but which is well known to Members of the Committee. In that connection I think it is possible, doubtless representing the opinion of the House as a whole, to welcome a new ex- pression of opinion, an expression, I should rather say, of a new. body of opinion, in the course of the Debate today, because I believe, not wrongly, I have recognised a fuller expression given to that opinion, which, I cannot help feeling, is more firmly based on experience, which looks upon this new scale of salaries as one which is by no means incommensurate with the increased responsibilities of those to whom they are paid, and which is by no means out of just proportion with the remuneration paid in other fields of employment and industry. But I have been conscious of a certain line of criticism directed against the argument which would directly compare these new and higher salaries based on the reports of this committee with the large salaries paid to big leaders of business in the outside world. It is said that there is no comparison in the circumstances of their employment. One has got a more permanent form of employment and a certain status, is not liable to dismissal, has a pension, and so on. All these points have been taken. Be it so. There are these differences, but the Committee will remember that there are yet in those figures quoted by my right hon. Friend a very wide margin of excess on the side of industrial salaries to compensate for those things.
Perhaps it would interest the Committee to regard for the moment a comparison of civil servants' salaries, not with the outside salaries, where there are these differences of employment coming into operation, but with the pay of the senior and more highly placed officers of the Army and the Navy. The salary of the heads of the Civil Service Departments has been raised, as we know, from £2,000 to £3,000. In the same time, the pay, I believe, of a General on the Army Council has been raised from £3,000 in 1914 to £3,975 in 1920. At the same time, a General in first-class command has been raised from £3,350 in 1914 to £4,340 in 1920, and he also receives an entertainment allowance of £1,100. Take an instance from the Navy. A Rear-Admiral Superintendent received only £1,883 in 1914; he now receives £3,026, with a furnished house. I mention these figures because any comparison with the outside industrial salary having been challenged, I believe it will be of interest to the Committee to have their attention drawn to the fact that the scale of remuneration for the senior officers of the Civil Service is, at any rate, not out of all comparison and proportion with the remuneration that is paid to the senior officers of the Army and Navy. That, of course, is unaffected by any of the arrangements dealing with the alteration of the bonus scheme, save and in so far as the salaries in excess of £2,000 will, of course, under the new scheme, receive no bonus at all.
Let me pass from that topic, which has occupied so much of the attention of the Committee, to another one which was raised by the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson) on the subject of the great plan of regrading and assimilation, which has been in progress throughout the whole of the Civil Service during several years. That is a question of far too much complexity and detail for me to attempt to weary the Committee with any detailed defence against the accusation brought against the scheme by the hon. Member. He referred to it derisively as a device for raising salaries. I set against that contention that this scheme, to anyone who will take the trouble—and the trouble is worth while—to inquire into its working and detail, will be found to be a device for true improvement both in economy and efficiency throughout the range of the Civil Service. Let me as briefly as I can summarise the object of the regrading and assimilation scheme. As regards the higher division the object set before us and the advantage to be obtained is the economising of the expensive first-class high-grade officer, and the concentration of that expensive, highly-trained and first-rate officer upon responsible administrative and managing work, and, secondly, to put on to work, which, as it were, is not worth the time and effort of such an officer, other officers of a less expensive sort. It is, of course, a great scheme of reorganisation. It sets out to do this: to unify and to abolish unnecessary, artificial, and traditional differences between the classes of civil servants; and in general, to produce something in the nature of a new, homogeneous, and reasonable organisation out of an organisation which has grown on the traditions of many centuries, and which in consequence of those traditions and the historical growth was a somewhat curious and ancient affair. It is not only because we seek newness and beauty in organisation that that scheme has been undertaken. That is not a good in itself, but it is because without that unification and simplification of classes of civil servants it is impossible to effect this great economy—to bring the minimum numbers of staff to bear oh the widest area of work. It is not possible to express the central idea of the scheme of regrading and assimilation otherwise than by saying that it is abolishing the artificial barriers and the fence between the classes so as, if it be possible, to bring a minimum staff to bear upon the work.
:If the hon. Gentleman is referring to what I said may I say I did not in the least attack reorganisation, but I pointed out that it led to the addition of £500,000 in salaries.
:I do not think that what the hon. Gentleman is referring to can properly be attributed to the result of re-grading and assimilation.
:It says so in the Supplementary Estimates. I have them here.
:I do not know the quotation to which the hon. Gentleman is referring. [HON. MEMBERS: "Read it."]
:The result of the reorganisation was that the present increase of salaries amounted to £575,000. Of this sum £300,000 was saved by economy: so that there is a loss of £250,000. I refer only to assimilation.
:I think I can satisfy my hon. Friend that whatever has happened in the past I shall certainly pay rigid and close attention in the future to what he has quoted. The actual scheme of assimilation has not in itself been responsible for these increases in salary. I wish to pass now from this question, which is capable of infinite debate, to another question which has been raised, and which is, perhaps, less closely connected, but none the less relevant to, the Debate. I have to confess that it was almost with a sense of profound depression that I listened to the attacks directed against all the efforts of the Government in the direction of economy by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn). The sensation truly was one of the remorseless hunter, with the pursued animal seeking a means of escape at door after door, only to find them relentlessly closed by the hon. and gallant Member. This was, of course, all in the region of prophecy, and I was hopeful that I might wake up and find it was only a bad dream.
:Can the hon. Gentleman tell us of one or two doors which are even ajar?
:I respectfully decline to deal with the hypothetical doors conjured up by the hon. and gallant Gentleman in his dream. It has been announced in the Circular that the preliminary Estimates for next year are expected from the Departments before the end of the present month. I do not need to elaborate to the Committee that after these Estimates are received there will be a substantial amount of work to be done in connection with them, and how long that will take it is not for me to say. I fail to understand the value of vaticinations of this sort directed against the Government uttering all these innumerable condemnations against any conceivable prospect they may have of success before the critical time of operation has even commenced. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has already stated on several occasions that, in connection with the work of the Government and the Treasury upon this Circular, a statement will be made by him before the close of the present Session. It is not for me to anticipate that statement in any respect. I think I may make one or two observations on these operations as far as it is possible to lift the hem of the veil which at present covers the work which is proceeding in connection with the famous Circular. Needless to say the work does not get done by sitting still. Incessant attention is necessary in the first place by the Departmental Committees preparing the Estimates. In the second place there are conferences between those Departments and the Treasury to enable them to suggest, devise, co-ordinate and stimulate the Departments in their efforts, and finally there are the deliberations of the Cabinet upon them which are essential on all matters of higher policy.
There is only one other matter to which I will very briefly refer and to which a defence has been challenged in connection with the observations made by the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) in connection with the Treasury staff. I confess that at the end of his criticism I felt relieved when I observed that his principal remedy was a new official. But let me deal with the criticism of increases in Treasury staff. It is true that, if you take the gross figure of the staff of the Treasury, you have 381 in comparison with a smaller figure before the War. Since a large amount of special attention is attracted to the Treasury it is worth while to analyse the figure. To omit the details, you can cut out all minor domestics, clerks, and officials lent to other Departments, as well as Ministers borne upon the strength of the Treasury who have not much intimate Departmental connection. You then reduce the total number of officials who are engaged in the actual work of financial control and direction from the gross figure of 381 to 90. That in itself is not a startling figure for a body of experts who are exercising a central financial control of the whole administration of the United Kingdom. The number before the War was 37. And the burden of the work has increased. The Budgets have vastly increased, and the Committee will remember that in the course of these years there has developed for the attention of the Government a wholly new sphere of financial administration—the sphere of international finance in which we have to stand with the financiers of all nations of the world and encounter them in the matter of reparations and exchange, and all other extraordinarily intricate matters for financial experts. In view of these circumstances, I believe it is not to be wondered at that there has been an increase in the ratio from 37 to 90 in the controlling staff of the Treasury—in the number of senior officials who have to preside over the various Departments.
There is one other matter which was raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Lieut.-Colonel Guinness), who inquired for an explanation in connection with some of the relations between the Civil Service and the ex-service men, and I confess a certain sense of disappointment that there should be any necessity, or ground, for criticism in this direction. It has been the strenuous endeavour of all those respon- sible for administration to meet in every way the undoubted and overwhelming obligations of the country towards ex-service men, and a large measure of success has been achieved. At the risk of boring the House I will give one more figure. From the 1st July, 1919, to the 1st April, 1921, the total number of ex-service men engaged on the temporary staff has increased from 24,000 to 55,000 which, in view of the total reduction which had to take place in the whole Civil Service, shows a very substantial achievement on the part of those responsible for the administration in the direction of fulfilling our obligations. One further figure is that the percentage of disabled ex-service men employed is now 12.20. There may be cases of which my hon. and gallant Friend is aware in which possibly something might have been done which has been left undone in the way of forgetting old scores in the case of men who ran away to the War without leave. I venture in the most sympathetic spirit to invite him to call the attention of anyone responsible for the administration to any such cases, as it has not been the custom of the Government or the Minister responsible to visit with undue severity cases of that sort.
:How many conscientious objectors are still in the Civil Service?
:Speaking from memory, I think the number actually taken back is in the region of 260, and I must be permitted to add that these are all men who have fulfilled every requirement imposed on them by the tribunals and by legislation passed by this House.
:The Debate initiated by my hon. and gallant Friend
(Captain Benn) this afternoon was to endeavour to secure some statement from the Government as to the economies they proposed to effect in the course of the public expenditure of the day, and I think the House is grateful to my hon. Friend for initiating the Debate. The reply of the Government has been that they are going to make some statement on the subject before the House adjourns. It is always economy to-morrow, and never to-day. We had a clear instance of that earlier in this Debate. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, having announced a reduction in the amount to be paid by way of bonus to civil servants, stated later, in reply to a question, that the Government had already discounted the economies which they announced this afternoon. That is typical of the Government. They discount their economies.
It being Eleven of the dock, the Chairman proceeded to interrupt the business.
rose in his place and claimed to move "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
( seated and covered ):Is it not the case, Mr. Hope, that you had risen and said "Order, order!" before the Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the Closure, and is it not the fact that your rising to say "Order, order!" marks the conclusion of the Debate?
:That is the interruption of business, on which the Minister in charge is entitled to move "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 205; Noes, 55.
Division No 289.] AYES. [11.1 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Breese, Major Charles E. Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Ainsworth, Captain Charles Brittain, Sir Harry Coats, Sir Stuart Amery, Leopold C. M. S. Broad, Thomas Tucker Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Armstrong, Henry Bruce Brown, Major D. C. Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Atkey, A. R. Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Conway, Sir W. Martin Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Bruton, Sir James Cope, Major William Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Barlow, Sir Montague Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.) Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Curzon, Captain Viscount Barnett, Major Richard W. Butcher, Sir John George Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Barnston, Major Harry Carew, Charles Robert S. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Casey, T. W. Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W) Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Edgar, Clifford B Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W. Edge, Captain William Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham, S.) Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Churchman, Sir Arthur Evans, Ernest Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray King, Captain Henry Douglas Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Fell, Sir Arthur Lane-Fox, G. R. Rodger, A. K. Ford, Patrick Johnston Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Forestier-Walker, L. Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) France, Gerald Ashburner Lindsay, William Arthur Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lloyd, George Butler Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Gange, E. Stanley Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Ganzoni, Sir John Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Seager, Sir William Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Seddon, J. A. Gilbert, James Daniel Lorden, John William Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Lort-Williams, J. Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Glyn, Major Ralph M'Connell, Thomas Edward Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington) Green, Albert (Derby) M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Stanier, Captain Sir Beville Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Macquisten, F. A. Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Greenwood, William (Stockport) Mallalieu, Frederick William Stanton, Charles Butt Greer, Harry Manville, Edward Starkey, Captain John Ralph Gregory, Holman Marriott, John Arthur Ransome Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Greig, Colonel Sir James William Middlebrook, Sir William Sturrock, J. Leng Gretton, Colonel John Mitchell, Sir William Lane Sugden, W. H Gritten, W. G. Howard Molson, Major John Elsdale Sutherland, Sir William Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Taylor, J. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Hancock, John George Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Thorpe, Captain John Henry Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Morris, Richard Townley, Maximilian G. Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Morrison, Hugh Tryon, Major George Clement Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. Waddington, R. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Wallace, J. Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Neal, Arthur Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Hinds, John Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent) Hopkins, John W. W. Nield, Sir Herbert Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L. Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Parker, James Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Whitla, Sir William Hurd, Percy A. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Williams, C. (Tavistock) Hurst, Lieut. Colonel Gerald B. Pennefather, De Fonblanque Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Wise, Frederick Jameson, John Gordon Perkins, Walter Frank Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Jephcott, A. R. Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Jesson, C. Pratt, John William Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Jodrell, Neville Paul Purchase, H. G. Young, E. H. (Norwich) Johnstone, Joseph Randles, Sir John Scurrah Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Rankin, Captain James Stuart Younger, Sir George Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Reid, D. D. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Kellaway, Rt. Hon Fredk. George Remnant, Sir James Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) McCurdy. Kenyon, Barnet Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D. Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hartshorn, Vernon Rose, Frank H. Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) Hayward, Evan Royce, William Stapleton Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hirst, G. H. Sexton, James Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Irving, Dan Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Briant, Frank John, William (Rhondda, West) Spencer, George A. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kennedy, Thomas Spoor, B. G. Cairns, John Kiley, James Daniel Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Cape, Thomas Lawson, John James Swan, J. E. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Lunn, William Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock MacVeagh, Jeremiah Wilson, James (Dudley) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Morgan, Major D. Watts Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Finney, Samuel Mosley, Oswald Wintringham, Thomas Gillis, William Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Glanville, Harold James Myers, Thomas Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) O'Grady, James TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Grundy, T. W. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Mr. Hogge and Colonel Penry Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth) Raffan, Peter Wilson Williams. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Rendall, Athelstan
Question put accordingly, "That Subhead A1 be reduced by £100."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 71; Noes, 180.
Division No. 290.] AYES. 11.10 p.m. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D. Barnes. Major H. (Newcastle, E.) Briant, Frank Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Cairns, John Cape, Thomas Hirst, G. H. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) John, William (Rhondda, West) Sexton, James Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Johnstone, Joseph Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Curzon, Captain Viscount Kennedy, Thomas Spencer, George A. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Kiley, James Daniel Spoor, B. G. Edwards, C (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lawson, John James Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Finney, Samuel Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Swan, J. E. Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Lunn, William Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Galbraith, Samuel Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent) Gillis, William Morgan, Major D. Watts Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Glanville, Harold James Mosley, Oswald White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Gretton, Colonel John Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Myers, Thomas Wilson, James (Dudley) Gritten, W. G. Howard O'Grady, James Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Grundy, T. W. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wintringham, Thomas Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Raffan, Peter Wilson Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Remnant, Sir James Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Rendall, Athelstan Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Hartshorn, Vernon Rose, Frank H. Mr. Hogge and Colonel Penry Hayday, Arthur Royce, William Stapleton Williams.
NOES. Agg Gardner, Sir James Tynte Gilbert, James Daniel Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Ainsworth, Captain Charles Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Amery, Leopold C. M. S. Glyn, Major Ralph Morris, Richard Armstrong, Henry Bruce Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. Atkey, A. R. Green, Albert (Derby) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Neal, Arthur Baird, Sir John Lawrence Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Greenwood, William (Stockport) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Barlow, Sir Montague Greer, Harry Nield, Sir Herbert Barnett, Major Richard W. Greig, Colonel Sir James William O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Barnston, Major Harry Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Parker, James Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell Hancock, John George Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Breese, Major Charles E. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Perkins, Walter Frank Brittain, Sir Harry Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Broad, Thomas Tucker Hills, Major John Waller Pratt, John William Brown, Major D. C. Hinds, John Purchase, H. G. Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Hopkins, John W. W. Randles, Sir John Scurrah Bruton, Sir James Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Rankin, Captain James Stuart Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Reid, D. D. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G. Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Butcher, Sir John George Hurd, Percy A. Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Carew, Charles Robert S. Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Rodger, A. K. Casey, T. W. Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.) Jameson, John Gordon Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Jephcott, A. R. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W. Jesson, C. Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Jodrell, Neville Paul Scott, A M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Churchman, Sir Arthur Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Seager, Sir William Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Seddon, J. A. Coats, Sir Stuart Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Kenyon, Barnet Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington) Conway, Sir W. Martin King, Captain Henry Douglas Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Cope, Major William Lane-Fox, G. R. Stanier, Captain Sir Beville Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Stanton, Charles Butt Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.) Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Starkey, Captain John Ralph Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Lindsay, William Arthur Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Lloyd, George Butler Sturrock, J. Leng Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Sugden, W. H. Edgar, Clifford B. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Sutherland, Sir William Edge, Captain William Lort-Williams, J. Taylor, J. Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham, S.) M'Connell, Thomas Edward Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Evans, Ernest Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Thorpe, Captain John Henry Fell, Sir Arthur McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Townley, Maximilian G. Ford, Patrick Johnston Mallalieu, Frederick William Tryon, Major George Clement Forestier-Walker, L. Manville, Edward Waddington, R. Forrest, Walter Middlebrook, Sir William Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Mitchell, Sir William Lane Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Gange, E. Stanley Molson, Major John Elsdale Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Ganzoni, Sir John Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Whitla, Sir William Williams, C. (Tavistock) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Wise, Frederick Young, E. H. (Norwich) Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. Wood, Hon. Edward F L. (Ripon) Younger, Sir George McCurdy.
It being after Eleven of the Clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
Police Pensions Bill
Order read for resuming adjourned Debate on Consideration of Lords Amendments.
CLAUSE 3.—(Pensions and gratuities of widows.)
(3) Where a widow is entitled to a pension under this Act, the police authority may, at their discretion and with her consent, grant her a gratuity in lieu thereof.
Lords Amendment:
Leave out Sub-section (3) and insert
"and ( d ) Where a widow is entitled to a pension under this Act not exceeding fifty pounds a year, and the police authority are satisfied that there are special reasons for the grant of a gratuity in lieu thereof, the police authority may, at their discretion and with her consent, grant her a gratuity accordingly."
Motion made, and Question proposed [ 15th July ], "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
Question again proposed.
:When we last discussed this we were waiting for a reply from the Home Secretary with regard to the principle of commutation in the police service. In the Army the commutation of pensions is a very arguable point. There is a Bill on the Paper to-day dealing with Admiralty pensions, which gives power for the first time to the Admiralty to deal in the same way with service pensions as in the Army. The point is whether it is desirable for the widow of a police officer to have a pension commuted. The dangers are known to the right hon. Gentleman. There is the danger of spending a lump sum and the widow still being in a state of poverty. If the pension is paid the widow will not fall on the poor rate, but if her pension is commuted she may fall on the poor rate.
:I appeal to the Home Secretary to give more consideration to this Amendment. Under the Act of 1890 a gratuity can be given to the widow of a constable amounting to one month's pay for each year of approved service. That gratuity was entirely at the discretion of the police authority. Under the Bill now before us an improved pension is given to the widow; she is given a pension at a higher rate, and for that pension I am sure the police are grateful. But in this Amendment from another place discretion to give a gratuity is limited to those cases where the widow is entitled to a pension not exceeding £50 a year. The result is that where, under this improved scheme, the widow is entitled to a pension of more than £50 a year, the police authority will no longer have the discretion to give her the gratuity in lieu of the pension. I will give two instances of how that works out. One is the case of a man receiving a salary of £750. His widow's pension at the rate of 12½ per cent. will be £93 a year, but if she is paid the maximum gratuity at the rate of one month's pay for each year's approved service, the gratuity to which his widow will be entitled will be about £3,000. Obviously, in this case the amount of the gratuity would be worth an annual sum, very much greater than is being given under the Bill. Another case—even a more striking one—is that of a police officer who could have retired twelve years ago upon a pension of £735 a year. If he had done that, he would by to-day have drawn £8,800 as pension, and of course, all the time the police authority would have been paying another man. If he died to-morrow, under this Bill, his widow would be entitled to £218 a year, but if the police authority were to give the maximum gratuity which would be possible under the old Act, she would receive, £5,685. It may be said it is only a discretionary matter, and that the police authority is not obliged to give her that gratuity, but, as a matter of fact, in this particular case, it has been the invariable practice of the police authority concerned to give the maximum gratuity, and that indeed was the reason why this particular officer remained at his post, because he felt every additional year meant an additional amount of gratuity to his widow in case he died. He therefore regarded his staying on as in the nature of insurance. Another point is, that if a widow receives a gratuity, that gratuity can be invested, and will remain for the benefit of her children, if she has any, whereas if she receives a pension in lieu of gratuity when she dies, the pension dies with her. I am quite sure my right hon. Friend has no intention of taking away either from police constables or senior officers any of the privileges they enjoy, and I ask him to give consideration to the omission of the words "not exceeding £50 a year," which would meet my point and give satisfaction to senior officers.
:I will deal first with the point raised by my hon. Friend who has just sat down. The limitation "not exceeding fifty pounds a year" was put in because it was felt that widows who were getting pensions of larger amounts, would not require the alternative of gratuities which could be ' invested. As to the point raised by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge), I quite see the danger of giving a gratuity instead of a pension I appreciate all those points, and I think in this Amendment, ample, safeguards are taken. A gratuity can only be given where there are special reasons for granting it. It is at the discretion of the authority and it must be with the consent of the widow but it can only be done where there are special reasons. The authority can also impose certain conditions, which must be fulfilled before they exercise their discretion and thus I think there are ample safeguards. I am quite willing however to meet my right hon. Friend. I do not think there will be any danger having regard to all the circumstances I have mentioned, in omitting the words "not exceeding fifty pounds a year," because it would still leave full discretion in the hands of the authority: there would still be the necessity to see there were special circumstances calling for the gratuity, and they would still impose such conditions as were necessary before consenting to exercise their discretion.
:Before the suggested Amendment can be moved, it will be necessary to withdraw the Motion.
:I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
:I beg to move, as an Amendment to the Lords Amendment, to leave out the words "not exceeding fifty pounds a year."
:On a point of Order. Is it in order to move an Amendment to a Lords Amendment?
:Not while there is a Question before the House "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," but that was withdrawn, and now a Lords Amendment can be amended and agreed to as amended.
Amendment to Lords Amendment agreed to.
Lords Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
CLAUSE 4.—(Allowances and gratuities of children.)
(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, where a member of a police force dies whilst in the force, or where a member of a police force, having been granted a pension, dies from the effects of an injury received in the execution of his duty without his own default, his children under sixteen years of age shall be entitled to allowances until they severally reach the age of sixteen years:
Provided that the police authority may at their discretion and with the consent of the man's widow, or if he leaves no widow the guardians of his children, grant gratuities in lieu of such allowances.
(2) Where a member of a police force to whom a pension has been granted dies within twelve months after the grant of the pension from any cause other than that specified in the preceding Sub-section, the police authority may, if they think fit, grant gratuities to his children under sixteen years of age or any of them.
(3) In all cases where under this Section gratuities may be granted to the children of a member of a police force, the police authority may, if they think fit, also grant gratuities to any other person who has been wholly dependent upon him.
Lords Amendment:
In Sub-section (1), after the word "Act," insert "( a )."
Agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
In Sub-section (1), after the w6rd "dies" ["dies from the effect of an injury"], insert
"within twelve months after the grant of the pension or at any time."
:I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This increases the power of giving allowances to children and enables them to be given where a pensioner dies within 12 months of his retirement. Originally, as the Bill stood, the children of a pensioner could get allowances only if he died from the effects of an injury received in the execution of his duty. That remains, of course, but in addition to that, if he dies within 12 months not from injuries received in the execution of his duty, they will then be entitled to an allowance.
:Is it quite clear that if he dies within 12 months from injuries received in the execution of his duty the allowance will still be payable to the children?
:Yes.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
In Sub-section (1) leave out the words
"Provided that the police authority may at their discretion and with the consent of the man's widow, or if he leaves no widow the guardians of the man's children, grant gratuities in lieu of such allowances,"
and insert
"and ( b ) Where the child of a member of a police force is entitled to an allowance under this Act, and the police authority are satisfied that there are special reasons for the grant of a gratuity in lieu thereof, the police authority may, at their discretion and with the consent of the man's widow, or if he leaves no widow, the guardian of the child, grant a gratuity accordingly."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
:It seems to me that the Lords Amendment limits in a material degree the power to grant the pension, and the words to which I would draw attention are
"Where the child … is entitled to an allowance under this Act."
That is the Lords Amendment, and the original words are
"Provided that the police authority may at their discretion grant annuities to the children."
I have transposed the words so as to make the meaning quite clear. In the Bill, as it left this House, it appeared that the police authorities had discretion, on compassionate grounds, to give a gratuity, but as we are now asked to amend the Bill, it is only when the child is entitled to an allowance under the Act. Unless the right hon. Gentleman can disabuse my mind of the fear that the Lords Amendment limits the discretion of the police authority, I think the Amendment should be resisted.
:I think it is quite the opposite way. The Amendment with which we have just deal is as wide as possible. It covers all cases, and this change of drafting is specially for the purpose of giving the power to grant a gratuity to any child who is entitled to an allowance. We have made the term as wide as possible. It includes any pensioner who dies within 12 months from natural causes, and it also includes a pensioner who dies at any time as the result of an injury received in the execution of his duty. Take the case of a child of 15½ years of age. A gratuity might be very much more valuable to that child than an allowance for half a year. So that, wherever a child is entitled to an allowance, this provides that the child might be granted a gratuity in lieu.
:I think the point made by my hon. and gallant Friend has force. The Amendment inserted in another place undoubtedly does limit the power of a local authority, and will place the child in a worse position. Let me direct attention to the limiting words—
"Where a member of a force dies whilst in the force,"
and further on—
"dies within twelve months after the grant of the pension."
The words in the Bill previously were much wider in scope—
"In all cases where gratuities may be granted to the children of a member of a police force, the police authority may, if they think fit, grant gratuities."
:The hon. Member is dealing with the other Amendment.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
Leave out Sub-section (2).
Agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
Leave out Sub-section (3) and insert"; and
( c ) Where a member of a police force dies whilst in the force, or where a member of a police force, having been granted a pension, dies within twelve months after the grant of the pension, or at any time from the effects of an injury received in the execution of his duty without his own default, the police authority may, if they think fit, grant a gratuity to any relative who has been wholly or mainly dependent upon him."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[
:I have been trying to follow this Amendment, and it seems all right, but I should like to be assured of the exact effect. Is this Amendment to improve the drafting? I really think we ought to be told. We want to watch these things very carefully to see that there is no injustice done to a very deserving body of men. I do not think this Amendment ought to be passed sub silentio.
:The Lords Amendment will undoubtedly limit the privileges granted by this Bill. As passed by the House it was very wide. I desire to call attention to these words of the Lords, which undoubtedly limit the operation of the Bill. I hope the Home Secretary will be able to give the House some assurance on the subject.
:These words do not limit the police authority's power as supposed by the gallant Member opposite. The words in the draft follow the terms of the earlier Sub-section, and include practically every case. But the Lords Amendment does limit the granting of gratuities in one respect. The point was discussed. It was felt that it was hardly fair to say that every person, whoever he or she might be, who happened to be dependent upon the police officer, by reason of any arrangement, should be granted this gratuity, so that it has been limited to relatives.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 5.—(Scales of pensions, allowances, and gratuities.)
The pensions, allowances, and gratuities payable under this Act shall be in accordance with the scales and provisions contained in the First Schedule to this Act, and the rules contained in Part III of that Schedule shall apply to such pensions, allowances, and gratuities.
Lords Amendment:
After the word "the" ["and the rules"] insert "general."
Agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
After Clause 5, insert
CLAUSE A.—(Pensions of constables continuing to serve after qualification for pension.)
(1) Where a member of a police force is, entitled to retire on a pension without a medical certificate, but continues to serve in the force, the police authority may, if they think fit, direct that he shall be entitled, on retiring at any time thereafter, to receive a pension not less in amount than that to which he would have been entitled if he had retired instead of continuing in the force, and in such case the right to receive on retirement such pension shall not, while he continues to serve in the force, be liable to forfeiture, except in the cases in which a pension when granted is liable to forfeiture under this Act.
(2) Before giving any such direction, and every year thereafter, the police authority shall cause him to be examined by some duly qualified medical practitioner, and, if on any such examination it is found that he is not physically fit for further service, the police authority shall not permit him to, continue to serve in the force.
(3) Where such a direction is given, a member of a police force who is entitled to retire without a medical certificate and to receive a pension at the maximum rate provided by this Act may be granted, in consideration of his continuing to serve, an-allowance at a rate not exceeding twelve-and-a-half per cent. of his pay. Any such allowance, if granted, shall not be reckoned in the calculation of the amount of pension or gratuity awarded, and no rateable deduction; shall be made therefrom under this Act.
:I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This Clause deals with men, chiefly of the higher ranks, who have earned the right, by lapse of time, to retire on full pension, but who have not yet arrived at the age when they can be retired compulsorily. If they do retire the result is that the local police authority has to pay their full pension, and, equally, at the same time, the full salary of their sue cessor. This new Clause provides that the local police authority shall be entitled to-say to these higher officers—chief constables, deputy chief constables, inspectors, etc.—that if you choose to con- tinue with us we will give you a guarantee that you shall not lose your pension for any reason other than one for which you could have lost it if you had retired—namely, conviction for felony and so forth. It also empowers them to increase the pay of such officer by 12½ per cent. The proviso has in view two purposes: One the purpose of persuading men who are still quite young, or at any rate have very valuable service in them and long experience, to stay on; the other to effect a great saving of expense to the local authority.
An objection may be raised to it that it stands in the way of promotion. Nobody wants to do that, but after all, you have to look at the other side and consider the ratepayer and the taxpayer who pay for the services of this police force between them. One always wants to encourage the younger men by holding out to them the hope and chance of promotion, but at the same time you must have regard to the other side. You have the overburdened taxpayer and the ratepayer, and if for five or six years you can save them so many hundreds of pounds by persuading good and experienced men to stay on there is no objection to that course. I ask the House to agree with the Lords Amendment.
:This seems to me to he economy very much in the wrong direction. This Amendment was withdrawn from the Committee upstairs on the promise of the representative of the Home Office that it would be considered on Report. The hon. Member for Ladywood (Mr. N. Chamberlain) seems to have been the only lucky hon. Member who could produce an Amendment acceptable to the Government, but they went one better and said, "Yes, we will accept your Amendment, but we will go one better, and agree to a bribe to be given to these men to stay on of 12½ per cent. on the salary they happen to be earning at the time the arrangement is made." I moved my Amendment in Committee recognising, as everybody must, that there are special cases where obviously it would be to the interest of the force to have the special experience of some particular officer kept on in the force for the period of five years allowed, but I moved that these cases before being accepted should be subject to the approval of the Home Secretary, but that proposal was opposed and refused by the Government. I think it was a very reasonable suggestion that where a special case was made out for retaining these older men the Home Office should have the deciding vote on the question, but they would not have it. The Under-Secretary of State argued that the local people must know the circumstances better than the Home Office, but if they are going to apply that argument to all the cases submitted to the Home Office, then there is no use for the Home Office as regards the police, and you might as well let the local authorities decide. This House will not agree to that. When the suggestion was made that special cases should be referred to the Home Secretary for approval it was done in order to prevent what is happening to-day in some forces in the case of old men who are not kept on for their great experience or efficiency, but because of their good fellowship. They say, "He is a poor old chap and we will keep him on regardless of his efficiency." They are not kept on with any advantage to the force. I would ask the House to remember that although these are called Lords Amendments, and although it is all very well to throw the onus upon the House of Lords, it will be seen from the report of the Amendments, that not a single one of them was criticised there. They were all read out by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health and simply put and agreed to. These Amendments which the Home Secretary has sent to the House of Lords were swallowed there without a single moment's discussion. I want the House to remember this that, in dealing with this question, it is not so easy as the Home Secretary would have you believe.
It must be known that a police constable must get promotion within 12 years to' the rank of sergeant, or he is out of it altogether. He must get promotion in five more years to inspector, and be promoted to superintendent within 22 years. You are now by this Amendment blocking promotion from the top, and the result of this is that the men down below do not get their chance. In London there are men waiting for promotion from constable who have passed their qualifying examination and have been on the waiting list for over two years. And though that is the case you are going to retain these older men for an I additional period, with a bribe of 12½ per cent. and with their pensions guaranteed while serving, which has never happened before. You are going to block promotion by this measure; you are going to increase and perpetuate irritation amongst the men down below who will feel that they have not a chance of promotion. There is now an enormous expenditure upon education and you get men, in the service, and joining up, with a better education than before. These men have passed their examination, and are keener than they were to get promotion. You are going to knock them out by this measure. The Home Secretary says he is going to give effect to the essentials of the Desborough Committee's Report. By these very amendments you are cutting right across the recommendations of the Desborough Committee, which recommended very strongly that you should have compulsory retirement at a certain age.
:This does not affect compulsory retirement. Compulsory retirement still remains.
:You are going to keep them on.
:This only applies to cases where a man has earned his full pension because he happened to join very young and is under the age of compulsory retirement. The moment the age for compulsory retirement comes, this arrangement would come to an end. This does not entitle a single man to go on who has reached the age of compulsory retirement.
:A man is entitled, after serving a number of years, to a pension. You fix a compulsory period at which he shall retire.
The Desborough Committee strongly recommended that when a man had earned his pension he should be made to retire. Has the right hon. Gentleman read the report of that Committee? But by this proposal, as a man passes into the higher grades you are going to bribe him to remain, and thus you will block promotion from the lower ranks. I do not believe the House will desire that. What is the excuse? Because if a man who has earned his pension retires, you will not only have to pay his pension, but you will have to pay someone to fill his post. If that is to hold good why grant pensions at all? Or why appoint anyone to fill the vacancy? I am concerned for the efficiency of the force. The right hon. Gentleman was not on the Desborough Committee. I doubt very much if he has read its report. We had before us several witnesses of all ranks and had the right hon. Gentleman read their evidence perhaps he would have given some consideration to what they said. May I remind him of the evidence given by Sir Neville Macready, who said "that their experience was that after 26 years a man was pretty well done up. He had made inquiries of superintendents and chief inspectors. Their views varied only by about a year, but the opinion was that a man should not stay on after he had reached 56 or 57 years of age. He was satisfied himself that they ought not to stay beyond that and he would make that provision apply to all ranks." But what does the Home Secretary care about the evidence of Sir Neville Macready? He has made up his mind that a certain thing shall be done, and doubtless he has told the House of Lords what they are to do. Even if we dissent from this Amendment no doubt the Lords will be instructed not to accept our view. The whole thing amounts to a farce: the farce goes on and on, and yet the members of the Police Force are expected to have confidence in the Home Secretary and in the Home Office.
12 M.
I feel strongly about this. We were not allowed to discuss this matter in Committee, but we were given a promise that it should be discussed fully on Report But we know what happened on Report and on the Third Reading, and we also know what has happened since. The Lords have not discussed any single passage. They accepted what the Home Secretary sent to them, and now we are told to accept it. I hope that this House will not do so, but will agree that when a man has earned his pension he should retire unless there is some special reason for his not doing so, and unless it is to the advantage of the force that he should be kept on. Let the force have the benefit of promotion when it has been earned. I have other points, but there are probably other hon. Members who will wish to speak on this question, and I hope they will. I will not, therefore, detain the House any longer at this late hour. This question of the police is always put off in this way until 12 o'clock at night, but on this occasion the interest taken in it is shown by the fact that so many Members are now present.
:If I have been more lucky in getting an Amendment accepted than my hon. and gallant Friend, it must be simply due to the fact that my Amendment is better than his, and, therefore, naturally, commends itself to the Home Secretary. With regard to this particular Amendment, I think the Home Secretary has made it perfectly clear to the House that my hon. and gallant Friend has been speaking under a misapprehension as to the effect of the Clause. There is no question of allowing men to go on serving after the age of 56 or 57. It is only that, when they have entered the force early, and have served the approved number of years, and therefore have earned their pension, they should be allowed, in certain circumstances and subject to certain restrictions, to continue serving in the force until they reach the age for compulsory retirement. There is another point to which I desire to draw the attention of the House. It might be supposed, from what my hon. and gallant Friend has said, that this is an entirely new Clause sprung upon the country for the first time, attempting to impose new conditions on the force. This Clause, however, is actually the law to-day. It is transferred bodily from the Act of 1906, which Act would be repealed by the Bill which is now before the House. It was to put back again into the Bill this one Clause in the 1906 Act, which otherwise would have been repealed, that I put down my Amendment. It was practically accepted in Committee, but with the restriction to which my hon. and gallant Friend takes exception, namely, the limitation upon the amount of extra remuneration which the police authority may give to these men.
:Would the hon. Gentleman say where in this new Clause it is confined only to those who have not reached the age limit?
:It does not affect that at all. Compulsory retirement is not dealt with in this Clause, and there is nothing in this Clause to upset the Clause which does deal with it. I am dealing with Sub-section (3), which my hon. and gallant Friend describes as a bribe by local authorities in order to induce these men to stop. I think it has exactly the opposite effect. The object is to limit the amount of the bribe, as my hon. and gallant Friend calls it. The fact is that these men do save money, and, therefore, there is a distinct advantage to the local authority in keeping them on. It is in order that they may not abuse that advantage, and to keep on men who ought not otherwise to remain in the force, that this limit of 12½ per cent. is put in.
:I hope that the House will not accept the Clause. Clause 2, which deals with the question of retirement, gives to a man who has completed 25 years of approved service the right to retire. Surely, when a man has served 25 years in the police, it would be much better in every way that he should retire and give the younger men a chance. Everyone who knows what happens in the Government service will agree with me that it is most desirable to have fairly rapid promotion. If you have a block in the promotion at the top, it is the worst thing possible for the lower ranks. We had it in the Navy, and special retirement schemes were instituted in order that the lower ranks should not be blocked from promotion. Gratuities were given to senior officers to encourage them to retire and clear the way for promotion, with advantageous results to all concerned. I cannot believe that the police force is different. One knows what will happen. There is a tremendous outcry about the expense of the rates, and every local authority will have pressure put upon them to try and get all the constables who are entitled to retire to stay on longer, and that would automatically block the chances of the younger men.
:They are doing it now.
:I am not a bit surprised. It is obvious that they will do that. You will save a little money, perhaps, but you will lose a good deal more in efficiency, and you will undoubtedly get discontent among the younger men, who, as the hon. baronet has pointed out, are now better educated and probably more ambitious and keen. The older men will be much better out of it The police force has been very much changed, I think, for the better. Altogether I think the Clause is in every way mischievous, and I hope hon. Members will throw it out. It is a real example of penny wise and pound foolish and I do not think it is worth the little saving you will make at the cost of the efficiency of the force.
:I am generally in accord with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Holborn (Sir J. Remnant), but I cannot quite see that there is going to be any real injustice done to the men of the police force. I have come across a great many policemen in the prime of life and they have been compelled to retire where they would really like to have stopped on. I do not see that there is going to be any general block in promotion. In certain cases it might occur, but you have to consider whether there is any advantage to be derived from retaining these men. I think in many cases there would be, and taken all round I think the Clause will be to the advantage of the force itself. But there is something I do not like. It says that where a member of the force is entitled to retire on a pension but wishes to continue to serve in the force the police authorities may, if they think, &c. I should have thought the word should be "shall," because the man is entitled to the pension by Act of Parliament and I cannot understand why the permissive word should be put in. It seems to me it should be obligatory instead of permissive.
:It applies to men who have earned their pension, but have not reached the age of compulsory retirement. They can stay on if they choose. This is a Clause which permits the local authority to induce a man to stay on when he does
not want to and they want him to, and it limits the amount, which to-day is unlimited. They may not want to do so, in which case the man can always secure his pension by retiring.
:I agree with the right hon. Gentleman, but if these men are requested to stay on, it should be obligatory.
:If this Clause is not inserted would it not be possible that one or two or three men might be enjoying a pension at the same time?
:Yes.
:How is it that one treatment is given to the civil servant and another treatment to the senior police officer? We have been told to-day that the civil servant can calculate his pension on his total emoluments, including his salary and bonus, but a senior police officer is not entitled to count the 12½ per cent. which is granted to him by a local authority for the purpose of pension. If you are going to treat the civil servant one way, surely it is right to treat the senior police officer in the same way.
:The cases are not at all analogous. This is a question of allowing the local authorities, within certain limits, to make a contract with a man. He is not bound to stay but if he does stay they may proceed on the terms of the contract to grant him an increase up to 12½ per cent. on his salary.
Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
The House divided: Ayes, 128; Noes, 7.
Division No. 291.] AYES. [12.12 a.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Cape, Thomas Forestier-Walker, L. Ainsworth, Captain Charles Casey, T. W. Forrest, Walter Amery, Leopold C. M. S. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A.(Birm., W.) Foxcrott, Captain Charles Talbot Armstrong, Henry Bruce Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) France, Gerald Ashburner Atkey, A. R. Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Gange, E. Stanley Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Churchman, Sir Arthur Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Barlow, Sir Montague Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Barnett, Major Richard W. Coats, Sir Stuart Glanville, Harold James Barnston, Major Harry Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Goff, Sir R. Park Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Green, Albert (Derby) Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Cope, Major William Greenwood, William (Stockport) Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Breese, Major Charles E. Edge, Captain William Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Brittain, Sir Harry Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham, S.) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Broad, Thomas Tucker Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Brown, Major D. C. Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Hartshorn, Vernon Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Evans, Ernest Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Bruton, Sir James Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Hinds, John Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Ford, Patrick Johnston Hirst, G. H. Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Morrison, Hugh Sugden, W. H. Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Neal, Arthur Sutherland, Sir William Jameson, John Gordon Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Jodrell, Neville Paul O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Townley, Maximilian G John, William (Rhondda, West) Parker, James Tryon, Major George Clement Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wallace, J Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) King, Captain Henry Douglas Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Lane-Fox, G. R. Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Rankin, Captain James Stuart Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Lawson, John James Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Whitla, Sir William Lindsay, William Arthur Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford) Williams, C. (Tavistock) Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Royce, William Stapleton Wise, Frederick Lort-Williams, J. Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur Wood, Hon. Edward F L. (Ripon) M'Connell, Thomas Edward Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Young, E. H. (Norwich) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Marriott, John Arthur Ransome Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Spencer, George A. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Stanton, Charles Butt Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. Morgan, Major D. Watts Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. McCurdy.
NOES. Barnes, Major H (Newcastle, E.) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Raffan, Peter Wilson Sir James Remnant and Lieut.- Gilbert, James Daniel Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Commander Kenworthy. Glanville, Harold James
CLAUSE 6.—(Service to be reckoned for pension.)
(1) The service of a member of a police force for the purposes of this Act shall be subject to such deductions in respect of sickness, misconduct, or neglect of duty as may be made therefrom in pursuance of any regulations affecting the force to which he belongs, not exceeding the period during which he is suspended from duty on account of sickness, misconduct, or neglect of duty, as the case may be; and the expression "approved service" shall for the purposes of this Act mean such service as may after such deductions as aforesaid (if any) be certified by the chief officer of police to have been diligent and faithful service, but shall not include service before attaining the age of twenty years, except in the case of a member of a police force who before attaining that age is incapacitated for the performance of his duty by infirmity of mind or body occasioned by an injury received in the execution of his duty without his own default.
(2) Where a deduction is made from the service of a member of a police force in respect of sickness, misconduct, or neglect of duty, notice of the deduction shall be given to him as soon as may be after the occurrence of the cause for which the deduction is made; and he may appeal to the chief officer of his police force against any act of any superior officer which prevents him from reckoning any period of actual service as approved service, and any period of actual service allowed by the chief officer on such appeal shall be deemed to be approved service:
Provided that, in the case of a borough having a separate police force, the decision of the chief officer shall be subject to the approval of the watch committee, and in the case of a county force the decision of the chief officer shall be subject to the approval of the standing joint committee of the quarter sessions and the county council.
Lords Amendment:
In Sub-section (1), leave out the word "suspended" ["suspended from duty"], and insert "absent."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
:I am not very happy about this change. One can understand the word "suspended" in relation to misconduct or neglect, but the effect of the change is that if a man is absent from duty on account of sickness, which may be a bonâ fide case of sickness without any fault of his own, he is dealt with in this way. If the effect of this alteration is to alter treatment in respect of sickness I do not think we should agree to the Motion.
:The effect is simply that the word "suspended" is not appropriate in the case of sickness. This is simply a drafting Amendment and does not affect the meaning in the least.
:Is the meaning of this Clause that if a man is absent for any cause, the time of his absence is deducted from his period of service?
:The Clause means exactly what it says, and it does not make the slightest difference to the meaning of the Clause whether the word "suspended" or "absent" is used.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
In Sub-section (2) leave out the words
"and in the case of a county force the decision of the chief officer shall be subject to the approval of the standing joint committee of the quarter sessions and the county council."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
:This is another instance of the total disregard by the Home Secretary of the decisions arrived at in Committee upstairs and finally approved and adopted in Report and Third Reading. Nothing was said by him which was likely to lead anybody to believe that the Lords would be told to reverse the Amendment arrived at in discussion in Committee upstairs. The effect of this Lords Amendment is to abolish the right of appeal over the head of the Chief Constable of a county to the Standing Joint Committee of the Quarter Sessions. The right of appeal was carried against the Government in Committee by no less than 14 votes to 5, a fairly substantial majority against the Government to be disregarded by them in this off-hand manner. Such a question as "approved service" should not be left entirely to a Chief Constable to decide. There is no question of interfering with discipline, but with regard to dismissal, the right of appeal should be over the head of the Chief Constable to the Quarter Sessions Joint Committee. The Noble Lord, in another place, when moving this Amendment, was good enough to make one or two comments. He went so far as to say that
"I think that the Amendment was made under a misapprehension."
It looks like it, when it was discussed in Committee and carried against the Government by 14 votes to 5. And the Lords were good enough to put that misapprehension right and to say that it is desirable to retain the system of not allowing the right of appeal over the Chief Constable to the Joint Committee, but to make the Chief Constable the sole authority. I venture to hope that this right of appeal will be extended. In the boroughs there is a right of appeal to the Watch Committee. Nobody desires to interfere with the discipline of the force, but there are certain questions not affecting discipline, which should not be left to the entire discretion of the Chief Constable. We might, unfortunately, find ourselves again in times which would render necessary the introduction of an, Act like D.O.R.A., and what would in ordinary times be a passable offence would become a more serious matter. A Chief Constable might—as some of them do, especially when they have been kept on beyond the age at which they are able to exercise proper discretion, and take a, proper view of things—decide that a man should be punished by loss of service for an offence which in ordinary times would be passed over. I hope the House in this case will not be dictated to by the House of Lords, but will support the Committee, which after careful consideration decided that this small concession should be made.
:There is no question of being dictated to by the House of Lords or by anybody else. As a matter of fact, this Amendment is based on the Report of the Desborough Committee, of which the hon. Member (Sir J. Remnant) was himself a signatory.
:I was, and I know what is in the Desborough Report.
:The Report is signed by the hon. Member as one of the members. Misconduct and neglect of duty are two of the main reasons which are dealt with in connection with this matter, and although of course the hon. Member knows it a lot better than I do, yet I do know something about it, and the Desborough Committee went very carefully into this question. There is a difference in practice between the borough and the county forces. In the borough forces the Watch Committee may override the chief constable in these matters; in the county forces they may not. The Desborough Committee came to the conclusion and advised—may I refer my hon. Friend to paragraph 124 of the Report if he has not read it—that the county system should be adopted generally and that the chief constable should be supreme in these matters. They held that it was undesirable that a popularly elected body should interfere in matters of discipline, and, after all, misconduct and neglect of duty are matters of discipline. All we have done is to endeavour, as far as possible, to follow the Desborough Committee's recommendation, arrived at after they had gone into the matter with the greatest care.
:By the leave of the House, may I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his courtesy in suggesting that I had not read the Desborough Report? May I refer him to paragraph 12 of the summary of principle recommendations, regarding dismissals, in which it is stated that all ranks should
CLAUSE 7.—(Continuous service in two or more forces.)
(1) Where a member of a police force has served in more than one police force, approved service in any such police force in which he has completed not less than one year's approved service, and from which after the commencement of this Act he has with the written sanction of the chief officer of that force removed to another force, shall be reckoned as approved service in the force in which he is serving at the time of his retirement.
(2) Where any member of a police force who is entitled under this Section to reckon any previous service in another force, or his widow, or any child or dependant of his, in due course is granted a pension, gratuity or have the right of appeal against an order of dismissal?
Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
The House divided: Ayes, 103; Noes, 23.
Division No. 292.] AYES. [12.30 a.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Ford, Patrick Johnston O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Ainsworth, Captain Charles Forestier-Walker, L. Parker, James Amery, Leopold C. M. S. Forrest, Walter Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Armstrong, Henry Bruce Foxcrott, Captain Charles Talbot Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Atkey, A. R. France, Gerald Ashburner Pennefather, De Fonblanque Baird, Sir John Lawrence Gange, E. Stanley Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Barlow, Sir Montague Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Barnett, Major Richard W. Goff, Sir R. Park Roundell, Colonel R. F. Barnston, Major Harry Green, Albert (Derby) Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Greenwood, William (Stockport) Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on T.) Breese, Major Charles E. Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Broad, Thomas Tucker Hinds, John Stanton, Charles Butt Brown, Major D. C. Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Sugden, W. H. Bruton, Sir James Jameson, John Gordon Sutherland, Sir William Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Jodrell, Neville Paul Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Casey, T. W. Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Townley, Maximilian G Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Birm., W.) Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Tryon, Major George Clement Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) King, Captain Henry Douglas Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W. Lane-Fox, G. R. Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Churchman, Sir Arthur Lindsay, William Arthur Whitla, Sir William Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Williams, C. (Tavistock) Coats, Sir Stuart Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Wise, Frederick Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Lort-Williams, J. Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale M'Connell, Thomas Edward Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Cope, Major William M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Young, E. H. (Norwich) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Edge, Captain William Moreing, Captain Algernon H. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. Evans, Ernest Morrison, Hugh McCurdy. Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Neal, Arthur
NOES. Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) Hartshorn, Vernon Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hirst, G. H. Spencer, George A. Cape, Thomas John, William (Rhondda, West) Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lawson, John James Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) Gilbert, James Daniel Morgan, Major D. Watts Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Glanville, Harold James Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Gritten, W. G. Howard Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Raffan, Peter Wilson Sir James Remnant and Lieut.- Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Royce, William Stapleton Commander Kenworthy.
allowance, the police authority in whose service he then is, or was at the time of his death or retirement, shall be entitled to call upon the other police authority or authorities, and they shall contribute a proportionate part of any pension, gratuity or allowance granted to him or his widow or any such child or dependant, reckoned according to his approved service and pay during his service in such force, and the said proportionate part shall be settled by agreement between the police authorities, or in default of agreement by an arbitrator appointed by the Secretary of State.
The power conferred by this Sub-section shall not be exercisable in respect of previous service rendered in Scotland before the commencement of this Act.
This Sub-section shall apply in cases where the previous service was service in a police force in Ireland, hut in that case the said proportionate part shall be determined by the Treasury.
Lords Amendment:
In Sub-section (1) after the word "his" ["serving at the time of his retirement"] insert "death or."
Agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
In Sub-section (2) leave out the words
"The power conferred by this subsection shall not be exercisable m r9spect of previous service rendered in Scotland before the commencement of this Act."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
:I hope the Government will take warning of the rate of the minority's increase. If we can increase from 7 to 23 in two Divisions, the Government had better look to their majority, and that is all the more reason why they should give some word of explanation of this Amendment. Clause 7 deals with the right of a policeman who does service in more than one force counting the aggregate service for his privileges. If this Amendment is accepted it means that a constable who may serve some years in Scotland and is transferred with the written consent of his chief officer is not allowed to count his time in Scotland. It says "The power conferred by this Sub-section shall not be exercisable in respect of previous service rendered in Scotland before the commencement of this Act." Are we to understand that service Scotland for a policeman is less onerous than in England? Are the Scots so much more law-abiding; is the policeman's life happier in Scotland than in England? What is the reason? There may be a good reason, and I think we ought to be told. On the face of it it seems to me an unreasonable Amendment. If it were in Ireland there may be something to be said for it. I cannot for the life of me understand the Amendment. I shall be glad if the right hon. and learned Gentleman will give a word of explanation.
:May I just ask this? It seems to me that this alters the present position. I should like to know whether that is so; whether under the existing law an officer who serves under the conditions stated by my hon. and learned Friend that service in Scotland before coming to London would have counted up to the passing of this Act. Will he be in a worse position than he would have been if the Act had not been passed?
:I think it puts him in a better position. I do not quite follow what the objection is to this. I do not see what the objection is. As a matter of fact, it makes no difference, because the words do not alter the meaning of the section.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
In Sub-section (2), leave out the word "Sub-section" ["This Sub-section shall apply"] and insert "Section."
Agreed to.
CLAUSE 8.—(Discontinuous service in one or more forces.)
(2) Where a member of a police force has retired from the force without a pension, and subsequently joins or has joined some other police force, the police authority of that other force may, if they think fit, allow the period of approved service, not being less than one year, which he was entitled to reckon at the end of his service in the first-mentioned force, to be reckoned as approved service, if he pays or has paid to the police authority of that other force the amount of any gratuity which may have been granted to him, or of any rateable deductions from his pay which may have been paid to him in respect of his service in the first-mentioned force.
Lords Amendments:
In Sub-section (2): After the word "force" ["police force has retired"] insert "who."
Leave out the word "and" ["and subsequently joins"].
Agreed to.
CLAUSE 10.—(Service of men belonging to reserve forces.)
Where a member of a police force with the knowledge of the police authority or of the chief officer of the force belongs to any royal naval reserve force or to the army reserve or air-force reserve, and is required for training or called into actual service or called out for training or for permanent service, he shall be entitled, on returning to the police force after the end of such training or service, to reckon any approved service which he was entitled to reckon at the commencement of such training or service; and his period of training or service shall, and any period during which he was incapacitated for police duty owing to an injury received during his period of training or service may, if the police authority thinks fit, be reckoned in the computation of the approved service.
Lords Amendments:
Leave out the word "shall" ["training or service shall"].
Leave out the words "may, if the police authority thinks fit," and insert "without his own default, shall."
Agreed to.
CLAUSE 11.—(Proof of incapacity for duty, liability to serve again, and revision of pension.)
(4) In the event of the incapacity ceasing before the time at which the pensioner would, if he had continued to serve, have been entitled without a medical certificate to retire and receive a pension for life, the police authority may cancel his pension and require him to serve again in the police force, in a rank not less than the rank which he held before his retirement, and at a rate of pay not less than that on which his pension was calculated.
(5) Where a pensioner so serves again, the provisions of this Act shall apply as if he had not previously retired, save that, except in the case of pensions for non-accidental injuries received in the execution of duty, he shall not reckon as approved service the time which elapsed between his former retirement and the recommencement of his service.
(7) If a member of a police force or pensioner refuses or wilfully or negligently fails, when required by the police authority, to be examined by some duly qualified medical practitioner selected by that authority, the police authority may deal with him in all respects as if they were satisfied by the evidence of such a practitioner that he is not disabled or, as the case may be, as to the degree of his disablement.
(8) Where any person is aggrieved by the decision of the police authority in regard to any matter mentioned in this section he shall be entitled to appeal to a tribunal consisting of a medical practitioner nominated by the police authority, a medical practitioner nominated by the appellant, and an independent person (not being a medical practitioner) nominated by the Secretary of State, and the decision of such tribunal shall be final.
Lords Amendments.
In Sub-section (4) leave out the word "less" ["in rank not less"] and insert "lower."
In Sub-section (5) leave out the words "in the case of pensions for non-accidental injuries," and insert "where the pension was granted in respect of a non-accidental injury."
In Sub-section (7) leave out the words "that he is not disabled," and insert "as to whether he is incapacitated for the performance of duty."
Agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
Leave out Sub-section (8) and insert
(8) Where for the purposes of this Section any person is medically examined by a medical practitioner selected by the police authority and is dissatisfied with his opinion on any medical question, he may appeal in accordance with rules made by the Secretary of State to an independent person nominated by the Secretary of State.
The police authority shall be bound by the-decision of any medical question which is determined on any such appeal, but, subject to this provision, the decision of the police authority on any question arising under this Section shall be final.
Rules made by the Secretary of State for the purposes of this Section may make such provision as appears expedient with respect to the costs of any appeal.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
:Before we pass this, I would like to ask the Home Secretary if he will explain the reason why this Amendment whittles down the original Bill in two important respects. In the Bill there was a right of appeal on any matter. In this Amendment the right of appeal is limited to any medical question. Again, in the Bill the appeal was referred to a tribunal of three, two of whom were medical men, and in the Amendment the tribunal is whittled down to one.
:When the Bill left the Committee upstairs, there was a distinct understanding that the Clause would be so amended as to show that the appeal would only be on medical grounds. That was the arrangement come to, and this Amendment does that. With regard to the change of the tribunal, the tribunal con- sisted of three, two doctors and an independent person. That is practically the same as this, except that you had two men, presumably sitting in a judicial capacity, who really were acting as advocates and representing one side or the other. It is really much better that you should have one independent judge who will hear the evidence of both sides. We hope that this will be a temporary arrangement. At the present moment it is quite impossible for a county court judge to undertake this work, but I hope eventually a county court judge will be able to undertake the work, in which case the alteration will be made. But it does not really affect the efficacy of the tribunal, except to make it more efficient. The great point is that a man, if he is dissatisfied, can have the full assistance of his own medical attendant.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 13.—(Assignment of pensions and regulations as to payment of pensions, etc.)
The following provisions shall have effect with respect to every pension, allowance, and gratuity (in this Section referred to as a grant) payable by the police authority to any person (in this Section referred to as the pensioner):—
(6) On the death of a pensioner to whom a sum not exceeding one hundred pounds is due on account of a grant, then, if the police authority so direct, probate or other proof of the title of the personal representative of the deceased may be dispensed with, and the sum may be paid or distributed to or among the persons appearing to the police authority to be beneficially entitled to the personal estate of the deceased pensioner or to or among any one or more of those persons, or in the case of the illegitimacy of the deceased pensioner, to or among such persons as the police authority may think fit, and the police authority, and any officer of the police authority making the payment, shall be discharged from all liability in respect of any such payment or distribution:
Lords Amendment.
After paragraph (6) insert a new paragraph
(7) Every grant which is a pension or allowance shall be paid, after the first instalment, in advance, except in the case of refusal to quit police quarters or any premises owned or rented by or on behalf of the police authority or the Receiver for the Metropolitan Police District, or to give up any equipment, or to make any payments due to the police authority or the Receiver, but where a person dies whilst in receipt of a grant paid in advance no return shall be required of any payments which have been made in respect of any period after his death.
:I beg to move, as an Amendment to the Lords Amendment, to leave out the words
"or to make any payments due to the police authority or the Receiver."
This gives power to withhold a pension or allowance for certain reasons such as refusal to give up equipment. That seems quite reasonable, but there is also a rather wide power to refuse a pension, and that is for refusal to make any payments due to the police authority or to the Receiver. My Amendment will leave power to refuse a pension where there is a refusal to quit premises or surrender equipment, but it will compel the powers that be to sue for moneys due in the usual way.
:I beg to second the Amendment to the Lords Amendment.
:I think these words are really necessary. The provision is that the payments are to be made in advance. If there is any refusal to leave any premises which belong to the police authority it seems unfair that the authority should be bound to make payments while there is money due to them which the person will not pay.
:I do not think that the Home Secretary's explanation completely covers the case. He seems to think that the payment is made in advance, but, as I read it, although payment is made in advance it can be stopped if moneys are due to the police authority or the Receiver. It may be quite proper not to pay money if the widow will not quit the premises, but why put a special lien on this property, which her husband has earned in her own interest? That does not seem to me to be fair, and if my hon. and gallant Friend goes to a Division, I shall certainly support him.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Lords Amendment," put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 14.—(Forfeiture of pension or allowance.)
(1) A pension or allowance under this Act is granted only upon condition that it becomes forfeited, and may be withdrawn by the police authority, in any of the following cases, that is to say, if the grantee:—
( d ) enters into or continues to carry on any business, occupation, or employment which is illegal, or in which the grantee has made use of the fact of former employment in the police in a manner which the police authority consider to be discreditable and improper; or
( f ) solicits, or, without the consent of the police authority, accepts directly or indirectly any testimonial or gift of pecuniary value on retirement from the police, or otherwise in connection with service in the force; or
Lords Amendments:
In Sub-section (1, d ), leave out the word "and" ["discreditable and improper"], and insert "or."
In Sub-section (1, f ), after the word "with" ["with service in the force"], and insert "his."
Agreed to.
CLAUSE 18.—(Rateable deductions from pay.)
The police authority of every police force shall deduct from the pay of every member of the force—
( a ) sums at the rate of two and a half per cent. per annum on his pay (in this Act referred to as rateable deductions); and
( b ) such stoppages during sickness, and such fines for misconduct, as may be provided by any regulations affecting the force.
Lords Amendment:
Leave out "( a )."
Agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
Leave out the words
>"and ( b ) such stoppages during sickness, and such fines for misconduct, as may be provided by any regulations affecting the force."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
:May I ask for an explanation of this? It seems to me to leave out paragraph ( b ), which reads
"such stoppages during sickness, and such fines for misconduct, as may be provided by any regulations affecting the force."
Those seem to me to be important words, and I think that we ought to have a word or two of explanation.
:The reason that these words are struck out is that they are not necessary at all. Under the Regulations already made under the Act of 1919 the point is already covered and the words are quite unnecessary.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 19.—(Return of rateable deductions.)
(1) Where a member of a police force, not having been dismissed or required to retire as an alternative to dismissal, leaves the force without a pension or gratuity, the police authority, except where he removes to another force in such circumstances as will enable him to reckon his approved service in the first-mentioned force as approved service in the force into which he removes, shall pay him the whole of the rateable deductions which have been made from his pay.
(3) Where a member of a police force dies leaving no widow and no child under sixteen, the police authority may apply for the benefit of any person who was wholly or mainly dependent on him at the time of his death a sum not exceeding the amount of the rateable deductions which have been made from his pay.
Lords Amendments:
In Sub-section (1):Leave out the words "removes to another force," and insert "leaves."
Leave out the words "first mentioned force as approved service in the force into which he removes," and insert "force for the purpose of pension."
Agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
Leave out Sub-section (3).
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
:This seems to me a very important Amendment indeed; probably the most important with which we have to deal with to-night. The Bill says:
"Where a member of a police force dies leaving no widow and no child under sixteen, the police authority may apply for the benefit of any person who was wholly or mainly dependent on him at the time of his death a sum not exceeding the amount of the rateable deductions which have been made from his pay."
:May I interrupt the hon. Member? This Amendment is purely consequential upon what was discussed in Clause 4.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 21.—(Payment of pensions out of police fund.)
(5) A police authority shall not in respect of any year receive any payment under this section unless the Secretary of State gives a certificate that the management and efficiency of the police force under that authority and the administration of this Act by that force have during that year been satisfactory; and, if the Secretary of State withholds that certificate as regards any police authority, the amount which would otherwise be payable to that authority under this Section shall be forfeited to the Crown and paid into the Exchequer.
Lords Amendment:
In Sub-section (5) leave out the word "force" ["this Act by that force"], and insert "authority."
Agreed to.
CLAUSE 22.—(Power for police authority to make Regulations)
(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act and of any Regulations made under any statutory powers of the Secretary of State, every police authority may make Regulations with respect to—
( b ) stoppages of pay during sickness and fines for misconduct; and
(2) Regulations made under this Section shall provide for all pensions and allowances being paid, after the first instalment, in advance, except in the case of refusal to quit police quarters, or any premises owned or rented by or on behalf of a police authority or the Receiver for the Metropolitan Police, or to give up any equipment, or to make any payments due to the police authority or Receiver.
Where a person dies whilst in receipt of a pension or allowance paid in advance no return shall be required of any payments which have been made in respect of any period after his death.
Lords Amendment:
In Sub-section (1) leave out paragraph ( b ).
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
:Is this also consequential? It is very similar to the words on which I raised a question some little time ago. It seems to me that we might have some explanation on it.
:Regulations are made under the Act of 1919. Under that Act the Regulations are made after full discussion with the Police Federation and representatives of the police authorities themselves.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
Leave out Sub-section (2).
Agreed to.
CLAUSE 26.—(Application to first police reservists.)
Where a member of the first class of the police reserve is called up for active service with a police force, or where an ex-member of a police force, whether a pensioner or not, joins a force for service in emergency—
( a ) If he is incapacitated for the performance of his duty by infirmity of mind or body occasioned by an injury received in the execution of his duty without his own default, or dies as the result of such injury, the same special pension to himself of his widow and allowances to his children shall be payable as are payable under this Act in the case of other members of a police force in similar circumstances, but based on his current rate of pay and his service with the force since he was last called to or joined the force as aforesaid;
( b ) A special pension shall in such case be payable in addition to his ordinary pension (if any), but no increase shall be made in such ordinary pension in respect of service to which this Section relates;
( c ) If the service to which this Section relates is with a police force other than that in which he previously served, then, if he becomes entitled to a special pension, the whole of such pension shall be payable by the police authority of the force in which he was serving when injured, and if a special pension becomes payable to his widow or allowances to his children, the amount of an ordinary widow's pension shall be payable by the police authority of the force in which he previously served, and the balance of the special pension to the widow and any allowances to the children shall be paid by the police authority of the force in which he was serving when he was injured.
Lords Amendments:
In paragraph ( a ): After the word "or" ["to himself or his widow"], insert "pension to."
After the word "allowances" insert "or gratuities."
After the word "children" insert "or dependants."
In paragraph ( b ), after the word "payable," insert "to a member of a police force."
In paragraph ( c ), after the word "he" ["other than that in which he"], insert "last."
Agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
In paragraph (
"then, if he becomes entitled to a special pension, the whole of such pension shall be payable by the police authority of the force in which he was serving when injured, and if a special pension becomes payable to his widow or allowances to his children, the amount of an ordinary widow's pension shall be payable by the police authority of the force in which he previously served, and the balance of the special pension to the widow and any allowances to the children shall be paid by the police authority of the force in which he was serving when he was injured—"
and insert
"if a pension becomes payable to his widow, the amount of a widow's ordinary pension shall, so long as the pension continues, be payable by the police authority of the force in which he previously served to the police authority of the force in which he was serving when injured, but any other pension, allowance or gratuity payable in respect of service in the force in which he was serving when injured shall be paid wholly by the police authority of that force."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
:I am sorry to have to ask again, but really I think that we are moving rather fast. We might have an opportunity of hearing what this Amendment is about. I have read through all of these Amendments, but I have forgotten what this one is about. There are several batches of Amendments. I must confess that I do not see the difference between the words of the proposed Amendment and the words of the Bill as it left this House. I think that we should have some explanation of this Amendment. Is it consequential, or not?
:The intention is to make it quite clear that the original force in which the man was should only pay the ordinary pension and that if he is injured that the force which should pay the balance of the special pension should be the force in which he was serving when injured.
:Should not the word "last" go in before the words "previously served"!
:I do not think so, but I will look into the matter, if I may.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 27.—(Application to police women.)
This Act, in its application to members of a police force who are women (hereinafter referred to as police women), shall have effect as from the date of their appointment as members of the police force subject to the following modifications:—
(2) No allowance or gratuity shall be payable in respect of any child of a deceased police woman during the lifetime of the father, except where the police authority is satisfied that he cannot support or neglects to support the child:
(3) A police woman shall not be entitled to reckon as approved service any service before the passing of this Act unless she pays to the police authority a sum equal to the aggregate rateable deductions which would have been made from her pay if this Act had applied to her since the commencement of her service.
Lords Amendment: In paragraph (2), leave out the word "is" and insert "are."
Agreed to.
Lords Amendment: In paragraph (2), leave out the words "or neglects to support."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
1.0 A.M.
:I hope that the House will not agree with the Lords in this Amendment, which is to leave out the words "or neglects to support." I would draw the attention of the House to the paragraph which states that no allowance or gratuity shall be payable in respect of any child of a deceased woman during the lifetime of the father, except the police authority is satisfied that he cannot support or neglects to support the child. If we leave these words out it means that he may neglect the child and the police authority can do nothing to help the child. If we leave those words out it seems to me that if we leave out those words "or neglects to support" that the police authority can do nothing to support the child. They can only step in the case of his inability to support the child. That means that if a policewoman has died and left a child, and the husband desires to desert the child—emigrates, perhaps—the police authorities are unable to help this poor infant. I hope the House will support me in resisting this Amendment. It may never come into force; on the other hand it may, and it may mean suffering to an unfortunate infant. In order to remove any possibility of suffering of that sort I think we shall be well advised to leave in these words as they were left in when the Bill left this House.
:This Amendment was to have been moved in Committee, but the hon. Member in whose name it was done did not attend to move it. The intention is that the policewoman who is married and has children, who dies, these children should be maintained in the ordinary way by the father. He is the proper person to maintain them. The fact that she is a policewoman ought not to relieve the father of his liability to maintain the children. That is the intention. There is a provision for the children where, for example, the husband has been an invalid, and she is really the breadwinner of the family.
:What happens in the case of the father who deserts the child and cannot be traced? Is the child to starve?
:The child would be in the same position as any child is to-day. The child could always go, I suppose, to a police orphanage or a place of that sort. At the same time, we do not think it is right that this should relieve the husband of a policewoman from the ordinary duties of a father.
:Is not the effect of the Amendment for the police authority to neglect the child that is neglected by the father? The obligation should be on the police authority.
:No, it is not.
:The police authority ought to sue the father to support the child. It is the duty of the police authority to look after the child, and then take the necessary steps against the father or the person who is responsible.
:It means that if the father is going to neglect the child the police authority are going to neglect it too.
:We cannot put the liability on the police authority in the case of a police-woman who has an able-bodied husband able to support the children on the same footing as the widow of a policeman who is not able to support the children as a man could The natural breadwinner in the case of the policewoman is living; he is there to look after the children.
:What my hon. Friend is putting is in case the father is neglecting his duty. You should, in the first instance, do your best for the child, and certainly recover from the father. But why should the unfortunate child be put in a worse position merely because of the father's neglect? I think the right hon. Gentleman has entirely failed to answer that. He is endeavouring to put the position as if the police authorities have no obligation towards the child at all. The whole point is that the police authorities are to be empowered to take steps in the child's interests, presuming the father is able to provide for it.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
In paragraph (2) leave out the words "since the commencement of her" and insert "during such."
Agreed to.
CLAUSE 28.—(Application to existing members of police forces and existing pensions.)
(1) This Act shall apply to members of a police force who were serving as such at the commencement of this Act, but—
( a ) the scale of ordinary pensions prescribed by this Act for members of a police force shall not apply to any person, other than a police woman, who became a member of a police
( b ) the provisions of this Act as to the age of compulsory retirement shall not apply to any member of a police force so serving unless and until he has completed the period of service prescribed by the pension scale applicable to his case as necessary to qualify him to retire without a medical certificate and receive a pension for life at a rate equal to two-thirds of his pay at the time of his retirement.
(2) The widow of a member of a police force who was serving as such on the first day of September, nineteen hundred and eighteen, or who, having while serving in a police force been called out as a reservist, or entered or re-entered, enlisted, or re-enlisted in any of His Majesty's naval, military, or air forces for the purposes of the War, was on the said date serving in any of such forces shall, for the purposes of the provisions of this Act relating to pensions and gratuities to widows, be treated, whether her husband died before or after the passing of this Act, in the same manner as though he had joined the force after the said date and completed five years' approved service.
(3) The provisions of Sections eleven to seventeen, inclusive, and Sections twenty-one and twenty-two of this Act shall extend so far as applicable to all pensions, gratuities, and allowances, whether granted before or after the commencement of this Act.
Lords Amendments:
In Sub-section (1, a ) leave out the word "passing" and insert "commencement."
In Sub-section (1, b ) after the word "serving" insert (i).
At the end of Sub-section (1,
"; or
(ii) if he had, before the twenty-third day of June, nineteen hundred and six, attained a rank above that of inspector."
In Sub-section (2): After the word "shall" ["such forces shall"], insert "as from the commencement of this Act be treated."
Leave out the words "be treated."
In Sub-section (3): Leave out the words "eleven to seventeen," and insert "twelve to eighteen."
Leave out the words "twenty-one and twenty-two," and insert "twenty-two and twenty-three."
Agreed to.
CLAUSE 29.—(Police areas and authorities.)
Provided that—
( c ) the exercise of the powers conferred by this Act on the watch committee of a borough shall be subject to the approbation of the council of the borough.
Lords Amendment:
In paragraph ( c ), after the word "powers," insert "as to the grant of any pension, allowance, or gratuity."
Agreed to.
CLAUSE 31.—(Special provisions as to fire brigade and fire police.)
(1) Where any local Act or Order contains provisions as to a fire brigade or fire police the Secretary of State may frame and submit to Parliament a Provisional Order repealing or modifying such provisions so as to bring them into harmony with the provisions of this Act, and he may by such Order unite any existing fire brigade pension fund with a police fund, and may make any other adjustments as may appear necessary to him in order to give effect to this Act.
(4) All costs, charges, and expenses incurred by the Secretary of State in relation to any Order under this Section shall be defrayed by the authority applying for the Order.
Lords Amendment:
In Sub-section (1), after the word "State," insert "on the application of the local authority."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
:May I again ask the right hon. Gentleman to be good enough to explain why it should be necessary for him to wait for the application of a local authority before he frames and submits to Parliament provisional Orders bringing the local authority into harmony with the provisions of this Act. It seems to me that if we accept this Amendment it may render him impotent at times when he really ought to act
:It is the usual practice to put it in this form.
:Are not the Regulations under this Act obligatory on local authorities, and does not that apply to this particular Clause with reference to a fire brigade or fire police? Therefore, why is it necessary to wait for the application of a local authority before framing and submitting to Parliament provisional Orders repealing or making such provisions. I should have thought that it would have been better if instead of having words, "on the application of the local authority," the initiative remained with the Home Secretary.
:The local authority has to pay all expenses incurred in relation to any Order under this Section.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
After Sub-section (4), insert a new Subsection—
(5) Where any members of a police force are employed under the directions of the police authority wholly or partly as firemen, any pension, allowance or gratuity granted to them or their widows, children or dependants shall be paid out of the police fund, and there shall be reckoned as carried to that fund from the fund or rate applicable to the purposes of the fire brigade or fire police such contributions as the Secretary of State may by general or special order determine to be a fair contribution in respect of such pensions, allowances and gratuities.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
:May I ask for a word of explanation about this?
:It is re-enactment of existing law.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 32.—(Interpretation.)
For the purposes of this Act—
(2) Any injury suffered by a member of a police force:
( c ) in consequence of some act performed in the execution of his duty;
shall be deemed to have been suffered in the execution of his duty:
Lords Amendment:
At the end of paragraph (2,
"or ( d ) whilst acting as a fireman, or assisting in the extinguishment of fire, or in protecting life or property from fire."
Agreed to.
CLAUSE 33.—(Application to Scotland and Ireland.)
(1) This Act shall apply to Scotland subject to the following modifications:—
( b ) The proviso to Sub-section (1) of the Section of this Act relating to compulsory retirement, the proviso to Sub-section (2) of the Section of this Act relating to service to be reckoned for pension, the proviso to Sub-section (8) of the Section of this Act relating to proof of incapacity for duty, liability to serve again, and revision of pension, and the proviso to Subsection (3) of the Section of this Act relating to payment of pensions out of police fund shall not apply:
( c ) In the application of the Section of this Act relating to appeal in case of forfeiture or refusal of pension, etc., for references to a court of quarter sessions there shall be substituted a reference to the sheriff having jurisdiction in the place where the member of a police force concerned last served:
( e ) Sub-section (1) of the Section of this Act relating to the application of the Act to existing members of police forces and existing pensions shall not apply to Scotland, and in lieu thereof the following provisions shall apply to Scotland:—
"This Act shall apply to members of a police force who were serving as such at the commencement of this Act, but—
"( a ) the scale of ordinary pensions prescribed by this Act for members of a police force shall not apply to any person who became a member of a police force before the first day of July, nineteen hundred and nineteen, and was serving as such at the commencement of this Act, if within three months after the passing of this Act he gives notice in writing to the police authority of his desire that those provisions shall not apply to him, and where such notice is given the scale of ordinary pensions applicable at the time of the commencement of the Act shall continue to apply as though this Act had not been passed j and
"( b ) the provisions of this Act as to the age of compulsory retirement shall not apply to any member of a police force so serving unless and until he either has completed the period
Lords Amendment:
In Sub-section (1,
"the proviso to Sub-section (8) of the Section of this Act relating to proof of incapacity for duty, liability to serve again, and revision of pension, and."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth, agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
:This is an Amendment to the somewhat complicated Clause applying the Act to Scotland. I do not profess to be familiar with all the intricacies of the application of the Act to Scotland, but from the Town Council of Edinburgh I have had a very sincere protest against this method of dealing with the subject. They protest strongly against these police Acts being passed for England and then there being one of these extremely clumsy applications to Scotland which has subsequently to be amended in another place and then come back here. There are separate Regulations for England and Scotland, and to a certain extent there are separate enactments, and I would ask the Home Secretary to remember that the whole of the local authorities in Scotland desire that there should be separate Acts for Scotland.
:I will convey that to the Secretary for Scotland.
:I am much obliged. Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments:
In Sub-section (1, b ), After the word "of" ["of police fund"], insert "the."
After the word "fund" ["the police fund"], insert:
"and the Section of this Act containing special provisions as to fire brigade and fire police."
In Sub-section (1, c ), leave out "etc.," and insert "gratuity or allowance."
In Sub-section (1, e ), paragraph ( a ), leave out the word "passing," and insert "commencement."
In Sub-section (1, e ), paragraph ( b ), after the word "serving," insert "(i)."
At end of Sub-section (1,
"or (ii) if he had, before the twenty-sixth day of July, nineteen hundred and ten, attained a rank above that of inspector."
Agreed to.
First Schedule
Part II
Widows and Children
(a) Widows' Pensions.
6. Widow's ordinary pension. —The pension shall be—
if her husband was a constable, sergeant, or sub-inspector at the time of his death or retirement, at the rate of £30 a year.
if he was an inspector (including sub-divisional or chief inspector) at the time of his death or retirement, at the rate of £40 a year.
if he was of a higher rank at the time of his death or retirement, at the rate of £50 a year.
7. Widow's special pension. —The pension shall be equal to one-third of his annual pay at the time of his death or retirement.
(b) Widows' Gratuities.
8. The gratuity shall be of such amount as the police authority shall determine, but not exceeding one-twelfth of her husband's annual pay for each completed year of approved service, or, where he had not completed one year of approved service, the amount of the rateable deductions which had been made from his pay.
(c) Children's Allowances.
10. Member of a police force dying from any other cause or pensioner dying as the result of accidental injury received in the execution of his duty. —The allowance in respect of each child who has not attained the age of sixteen shall be an annual allowance up to the time that child attains the age of sixteen at the rate of—
Provided that the aggregate amount of such allowances in any year shall not exceed exceed £30, £40 and £50 in the three cases respectively; but if he leaves no widow, or if the widow dies before all the children attain the age of sixteen, the actual and aggregate allowance may be increased by fifty per cent. above the sums hereinbefore mentioned.
(d) Children's Gratuities.
11. The gratuity shall be an amount not exceeding one-sixtieth of the annual pay for each completed year of approved service, or where he had not completed one year of approved service not exceeding one-sixtieth of the annual pay, so that the total amount of any gratuity or gratuities granted to the widow and children does not exceed one-twelfth of the annual pay for each completed year of approved service, or, where he has not completed one year of approved service, the amount of the rateable deductions which had been made from the pay.
(e) Dependents' Gratuities.
12. The gratuity shall be an amount not exceeding the amount of the rateable deductions which have been made from the pay of the member of the police force.
Part III
General Rules
13. The same person shall not be entitled, unless expressly so provided in this Act, to a gratuity in addition to a pension, or to both an ordinary pension and a special pension.
14. A gratuity shall be paid in one sum, except that in special cases it may be paid by instalments if the police authority consider that it would be to the advantage of a widow or children to do so; and a child's allowance or gratuity may be paid to a guardian or trustee if the police authority consider that it would be to the advantage of the child to do so.
16. The widow and children of a pensioner shall not receive any pension, allowance or gratuity unless the marriage took place before he left the police force.
Lords Amendment:
In paragraph 6, after the word "be" ["The pension shall be—"], insert
"the amount specified under (1) or (2) of the following scales, whichever is the greater, that is to say (1) Scale."
Agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
At the end of paragraph 6 insert
"(2) Scale—an amount ascertained according to the length of her husband's service and his pay at the time of his death or retirement as follows:
subject, however, in the case of the widow of a pensioner, to a deduction equal to twenty-five per cent. of the amount for each complete year for which her husband's pension had been drawn."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
:We have now come to the amounts in the Schedule and I think we ought to have some explanation of this Amendment. There is a very substantial change in the amount which a widow receives.
:There is a very substantial change indeed. Take, for example, an officer with 30 years' service. The widow of a superintendent would under this scale get £62 10s. a year instead of £50. The widow of a chief constable with £1,000 a year would get £125 a year instead of £50. The widow of a chief constable with £2,000 a year would get £250 instead of £50. The change makes a very considerable alteration in favour of the widow.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments:
In paragraph 7, leave out the word "his" ["his annual pay"], and insert "her husband's."
In paragraph 8, leave out the word "had" ["deductions which had been"], and insert "have."
In paragraph 10: After the word "force" ["police force dying"], insert "or pensioner."
Leave out the words "or pensioner dying as the result of accidental injury received in the execution of his duty."
Leave out the words "and aggregate allowance," and insert "allowance or allowances and the aggregate amount of any allowances."
Agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
In paragraph 11, leave out the words "an amount" ["an amount not exceeding"], and insert "of such amount as the police authority may determine."
Motion made, and. Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
:The paragraph says that the gratuity shall be an amount not exceeding one-sixtieth of the annual pay, but we are now inserting words which give a police authority the right to determine the amount. I take it that the intention is that the amounts mentioned are maximum amounts and also minimum amounts. We have passed a great many qualifying Clauses, but I do not remember one which gave the police authority the power to refuse the amount.
:The provision is that the gratuity shall be an amount not exceeding one-sixtieth of the pay. It does not fix a minimum, but leaves it in the discretion of the police authority.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments:
In paragraph 11: After the word "service" ["service, or where he had not"], insert "of the member of the force or pensioner."
After the word "the" ["the widow and children"], insert "children or to the."
Agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
In paragraph 11, leave out the words
"or, where he has not completed one year of approved service, the amount of the rateable deductions which had been made from the pay—"
and insert
"and the total amount of any gratuities granted to the children shall not in any case exceed the amount of the annual pay."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[
:I hope the right hon. Gentleman will tell us the effect of this. It seems to me to be not altogether a matter of drafting, but is distinctly limiting. There is a limiting Clause there, and it might refer to cases of reducing the amounts which would otherwise be given to these orphans. That may be very right and proper. There may be very good reasons for it, but the right hon. Gentleman should say what the reasons are. It may be a very late hour to-night, but this seems to be a matter of importance, and I think that we ought to be satisfied as to the meaning of these words, the reasons for the change made in another place, and why the change was made. After all, this Bill went through the Committee, where it was very carefully considered. It did not have a Report stage in this House; it passed the Third Reading without any discussion at all. We have all these alterations in another place and accepted now without one word of explanation. It is not treating the House in the way in which it ought to be treated. These people are, many of them, very helpless, and it is our duty to see that they get justice.
:This is all a part of the Amendments which were made in Clause 3 and paragraph 6 of the Schedule, and which greatly improved the position of the widow, and of the Amendments which extended the grant of allowances to the children. The purpose of this is that there shall be some limit, and after considerable discussion it was agreed to the limit as provided here, the annual pay. It was felt that, taken together this would be generous provision for the widow and children.
:The right hon. Gentleman has just used words on the very point which I was going to put to him. I understood that the limit was to be the exact annual pay, but the Amendment says "not to exceed one-half of the annual pay." Is there not some mistake?
:The limit is to be the annual pay.
:That was what I understood. I desire to move, as an Amendment to the Lords Amendment, to leave out the words "one-half" and to insert the words "the amount."
:By the leave of the House, may I put this point? It may sound a great deal to give a gratuity of one-half of the annual pay, but that is all that the children may have. A policeman may die, and the whole of the gratuity which we can give to the whole of his children is one lump sum down—half his annual pay.
:It is the whole pay, not half.
:Then you will accept my Amendment, if I move it?
:No Amendment is necessary. It was not in the Bill when it left the Lords.
:I would like to know where we are—
:The Clerk, when reading the words on the Lords Amendment, omitted the words "one-half," although they appeared on the Paper. The House, in agreeing with the Amendment, will agree to the whole amount of the annual pay.
:I propose to move to delete the words "one-half."
:The Lords Amendment as put to the House is the whole of the annual sum. This Amendment the House has accepted.
:Do we understand that the Home Secretary did not quite understand what he himself was moving?
:No, Sir. The hon. Member is not to understand anything of the sort.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
In paragraph 12, leave out the words "The gratuity shall be an amount not exceeding," and insert
"The total amount of any gratuity or gratuities paid to a dependant or dependants of a member of a police force or pensioner shall not exceed."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
:Is this drafting?
:Yes, purely drafting.
:Then why not say so?
:I will say so in future if the hon. and gallant Member wishes it. I thought it was apparent.
:The least we can ask is if these things are drafting. We have already found one mistake, and we may find others. I will accept the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman if he says it is drafting, but some of these Clauses will be very complicated with these Amendments, and it ought to be made clear that they are drafting. It would not take much longer if at all.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments:
In paragraph 12, leave out the words "the pay of the member of the police force," and insert "his pay."
In paragraph 13, after the word "pension" ["in addition to a pension"] insert "or allowance."
In paragraph 14: After the word "instalments," insert "or applied on behalf of the grantee."
Leave out the words "or children," and insert "child or dependant."
After the word "gratuity" ["child's allowance or gratuity"], insert "or a dependant's gratuity."
After the word "child" ["advantage of the child"], insert "or dependant."
At the beginning of paragraph 16 insert, "Subject to the provisions of Section twenty-seven of this Act."
Agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
In paragraph 16: Leave out the words "left the police force," and insert "retired on pension."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Shortt. ]
:What is the effect of this? It seems to me to be of some substance. Paragraph 16 reads:
"The widow and children of a pensioner shall not receive any pension, allowance, or gratuity unless the marriage took place before he left the police force."
Is there any substance in this alteration, and, if so, what is it? It is easy to imagine that there might be cases where this would have an effect on the widow and children, and I would like to know what their position is if this Amendment is carried.
:The Amendment safeguards the case of a man who is only temporarily employed, and it is to help the man who is killed in the execution of his duty when serving temporarily in the police force, and is entitled to a special pension.
Question put, and agreed to.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon, Mr. DEPUTY - SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House this day.
Adjourned at half after One o'clock.