House of Commons
Thursday, July 28, 1921
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Southend Water Bill [ Lords ],
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Grimsby Corporation Bill [ Lords ] (by Order)—( King's Consent signified ),
Bill read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Metropolitan Water Board (Charges) Bill (by Order),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till Monday next, at a quarter-past Eight of the clock.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill,
Lords Amendment considered, and agreed to.
Pilotage Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill,
Read the Third time, and-passed.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Cardiff Extension) Bill,
Consideration, as amended, deferred till To-morrow.
Peterhead Harbours Order Confirmation Bill,
"to confirm a Provisional Order, under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Peterhead Harbours," presented by Mr. MUNRO; and ordered (under Section 7 of the Act) to be considered To-morrow.
Oral Answers to Questions
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Brighton Local Committee
asked the Minister of Pensions whether his attention has been called to a statement made at a recent meeting of the Brighton local war pensions committee to the effect that an inspector was sent specially from headquarters to inquire into the necessity of three rubber stamps which had been requisitioned by the committee; and will he inquire into the matter?
I am glad to have the opportunity of denying this ridiculous statement. The facts are that an official was sent to Brighton to make important investigations concerning individual pensioners, and only mentioned the requisition for stamps incidentally when in the local committee's office.
Royal Garrison Artillery (P. Connolly.)
asked the Minister of Pensions if Patrick Connolly, late gunner, No. 92763, Royal Garrison Artillery, was, on 1st June, summoned for non-payment of the maintenance order of £l a week held by his wife from whom he is separated; and that Connolly has been unable to work and in receipt of out-treatment allowance since May, 1920; and if he can make up the man's allowance or have the allowance to the wife reckoned in as part of the £1?
I am inquiring into this case and will communicate with my right hon. Friend.
Appeals
12 and 13.
asked the Minister of Pensions (1) how many cases of ex-service men suffering from neurasthenia have been dealt with by the House of Lords Appeal Tribunal during the 12 months ending 1st July, 1921; what is the number of such appeals which have been rejected by the tribunals during that period;
(2) how many cases of ex-service men suffering from tuberculosis have been dealt with by the House of Lords Appeal Tribunal during the 12 months ending 1st July, 1921; and what is the number of such appeals which have been rejected by the tribunals during that period?
I regret that I have not the particulars available which would enable me to supply the figures required, and I understand that the information is also not available at the office of the Pensions Appeal Tribunal.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether an answer will be given on a later date?
I will make further inquiries and see whether I can help the hon. Member, but the figures are more likely to be in the office of the Pensions Appeal Tribunal.
Government Staffs and Offices
Ministry of Pensions
asked the Minister of Pensions whether, in view of the large staff employed at the Issue Office in Regent's Park and Acton, he can give any particulars showing the need for this staff and the amount of the work carried out?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the detailed description of the work of Pension Issue Office in Part V of the Report of the Departmental Committee of Inquiry, which was distributed to hon. Members at the time of the introduction of the War Pensions Bill.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give facilities to Members of Parliament to inspect the work which is being carried on?
Nothing would please me more than to invite Members of this House to see what is being done. If any Members care to visit the office, I shall be glad to make arrangements for them to do so.
Foreign Office
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why it is necessary to spend £950 for the hire of a motor car for the night staff typists in the Foreign Office?
A motor car is hired for the purpose of conveying to their homes certain female typists and duplicators who are employed until late at night upon the typing and copying of urgent telegrams. Generally speaking, the staff in question cannot be released until between 11 p.m. and midnight, when the ordinary means of transport are in many cases no longer available. The charge also covers the use of the car by the King's Home Service messengers for the distribution of urgent telegrams after 8 p.m. It is hoped that before the next financial year circumstances may render it possible to reduce considerably the night shift of the Department of the Office which deals with telegrams, when the motor car in question may no longer be required.
:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is against the law to employ women late at night, and could not ex-service men be employed on the night shift instead of these women, who could be allowed to go home by the ordinary means of conveyance?
What is the make of this car which costs so much? Is the hon. Gentleman aware a British made Ford can be bought for £200?
I will inquire as to that.
Is it not a fact that it is against the law to employ women at night, and that the Foreign Office are breaking the law?
I am not aware of that
Can it be definitely stated when this absolutely unnecessary expenditure will be cut down?
I hope it will be possible to reduce it, but I do not think a very large saving will be effected.
Would it not be better to work a little harder in the daytime, and avoid the necessity for this work at night?
It would not be possible to complete these particular duties earlier. I would like to point out that the Foreign Office staff work quite hard enough.
Total Personnel
asked the Prime Minister the number of persons employed in Government Departments on 30th June, 1914, and 30th June, 1921, respectively; and the total personnel, male and female, now employed in Government Departments created since August, 1914?
The approximate numbers of staff, excluding industrials, employed in Government Departments at 30th June, 1914, and 1st July, 1921, are 283,000 and 386,000, respectively. Of the latter total 70,400 are employed in Departments which have come into existence since August, 1914.
Salaries
asked the Prime Minister the total estimated annual cost of the salaries paid to persons employed in Government Departments on 30th June, 1921?
The amount paid in salaries and wages to persons employed in Government Departments, including temporary staffs but excluding industrial employés, for the month of June was approximately £8,360,000. This sum is inclusive of bonus, and is subject to variation owing to fluctuations in the number of staffs month by month, and the reduction in bonus that will take place on 1st September next.
Am I to understand that that is inclusive of bonus?
That was stated in my reply.
Ministry of Transport
asked the Prime Minister whether several prominent officers engaged upon duties of the greatest national importance at the Ministry of Transport have intimated their intention to resign their respective offices during the forthcoming autumn; whether the salaries now paid these officers are inadequate, having regard to the highly complex and technical nature of the duties they are called upon to discharge and the salaries paid for similar work in private firms and corporations; whether he is aware that general managers of certain railway companies receive salaries which range from £10,000 to £20,000 per annum; whether he will consider the advisability of adopting scales of remuneration appropriate to the work of public departments where specialised skill and administrative capacity are essential on a basis other than that of the Civil Service Regulations; and whether he proposes to endeavour to secure to the State the continued services of those officers on such terms as may be fair and reasonable, having regard to the nature of the duties they are called upon to discharge?
My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exechequer understands that certain officials employed at the Ministry of Transport have intimated that they propose to leave the service of the Ministry in the course of the next few months. As the hon. Member is aware, the present functions of the Ministry will be considerably modified on the termination of the period of control, and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport has already stated that very considerable reductions of staff will be effected by a reorganisation of work. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is well aware that the remuneration of the officials referred to is below that paid to general managers of railway companies; but whilst he appreciates the services that they have rendered, he regrets that it is not possible for him to increase the rates of salary now authorised.
asked the Minister of Transport how many inspectors are at present employed by the Ministry of Transport, and what they cost the country annually?
There are nine engineering inspectors now employed in the Roads Department of the Ministry of Transport—these appointments are mainly required to supervise the roads' expenditure, for which money is provided by the road users; three inspecting officers of railways (including the chief inspecting officer), with three assistants in the Public Safety and General Purposes Department, these do work which has for very many years been undertaken in connection with the safety of the public; and two inspectors in the Traffic and Mechanical Engineering Department, employed on safeguarding the public interest and in connection with the very large war property of the State on the railways. The total of their salaries is £11,060 per annum, exclusive of a fluctuating bonus on the prescribed Civil Service scale.
Does that include the expenses and allowances of these gentlemen?
I took the question of the hon. Gentleman to apply only to salaries. Should my hon. Friend desire information about the other matters, I will be glad to get it.
Are these appointments ordinary, or annual, or for a term of years?
They vary with the individual; if my hon. Friend desires further information I will get it.
Temporary Service (Women)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that temporary service carries with it no rights either to a pension or to increments, the suggested examination qualifying women to appear before a selection board for admission to the higher ranks of the Civil Service may be waived in the case of temporary women of suitable qualifications and service, and the selection board be authorised to recommend candidates for appointment without further delay?
The fact that temporary service does not qualify for pension and increment is not, in the view of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, a sufficient reason for modifying the draft regulations (Command Paper 1116) which have been laid before Parliament, for recruitment of women to higher posts in the Civil Service.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the whole of this matter is held up because he promised to allow a discussion, and has he now arranged with the Leader of the House when that discussion shall take place?
I think the hon. Member will see that a question about a day for a discussion must be put to the Leader of the House.
It has been.
Leave
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, regarding Civil Service holidays, how many members of the assistant clerk grade usually employed from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. five days per week and from 10 a.m. to 1 p.m. on Saturdays get 36 working days' leave (six weeks); how many staff clerks get 42 working days' leave (seven weeks); and how many of the higher grades get eight weeks or more leave; and if he is aware that clerks of the first type in the city usually only get 14 days' annual holiday and that those occupying similar positions to the two latter classes rarely get more than four weeks' annual holiday?
No member of the assistant clerk grade is entitled to 36 working days' leave. A period of 42 days' leave is not normally applicable to staff clerks or comparable grades; but there are a few Departmental classes whose members are entitled to 42 days' leave after 10 or 20 years' service. The number of officers eligible for eight weeks leave (which is the maximum period allowable to the higher grades) is not immediately available; but the number would in any case be relatively very small. I should add that officers have frequently to forego a part of the leave for which they are eligible. I understand that the leave of classes in the city comparable to the grade of assistant clerk is not uniform, and not infrequently exceeds the period mentioned by the hon. Member.
Is it not proposed to make this return? Is it possible to have these figures a little later?
Is the hon. Gentleman referring to the eight weeks' leave period?
The whole series—six, seven, and eight weeks.
That would undoubtedly involve a very considerable amount of labour at the present time. If my hon. Friend really presses for the return, I will certainly give it further consideration, but I would observe that the amount of labour involved would be very considerable.
Board Op Education
asked the President of the Board of Education what steps he proposes to take to conform to the Treasury circular dated 13th May and cut down expenditure by 20 per cent.?
I am not yet in a position to make any statement I on this matter, and would refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the Prime Minister on 19th July to the hon. and gallant Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter).
Seeing how many people are out of employment, may we urge upon the Minister of Education that it would be better and more economical to the country to carry on the secondary education, so that these boys and girls might at least be learning something in this moment of depression?
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it is the enormous cost to the country of the present education schemes that is causing unemployment and high taxation?
The biggest waste of all was the money they spent on your education.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he will give the number to-day of inspectors, male and female, permanent and temporary, employed by his Board or lent to his Board from any other Ministry; what is the average salary paid to a male and female inspector; what is the estimated amount of their travelling and other out-of-pocket expenses; is he aware of the amount of work which their visits entail on the colleges and schools which they visit, and the added expense which their recommendations entail; and is it proposed to reduce the number of inspectors in the near future?
There are 362 permanent inspectors of all grades in the employment of the Board of Education. Of this number 293 are men and 69 women. The average substantive salary of the men inspectors is £548, and of the women inspectors £385. Occasional inspectors are also employed at a fee per day, plus expenses on the scale authorised by the Treasury. The estimated amount of the travelling and incidental expenses of inspectors for the current financial year is £65,000. It is not my opinion that the visits of inspection entail an undue amount of work to the staff and pupils. They are directed to increasing, not only the efficiency, but the economy of the public service of education and to seeing that the State obtains good value for its expenditure on that service. It is the duty of inspectors to assist the Board in checking wasteful and unnecessary expenditure. The present number of inspectors is less than before the War, and it is not proposed to reduce it in the near future.
:Does the right hon. Gentleman consider those salaries are adequate to get efficient service out of these highly educated men, and do those figures include any bonus?
I have given the substantive figures; they do not include bonus. At the present moment the average sum per man amounts to £981, and per woman £774.
How many taxpayers are there whose salaries are comparable with that?
Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that, might I be allowed to ask whether half-pay officers in the Army are entitled to raise questions as to whether people who are working are to be paid or not?
Home Office
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why the staff of the Home Office has increased from 264 in 1914 to 429 this year; and whether he anticipates an early reduction?
The work of the Home Office increased enormously during the War, and necessitated the employment of a much larger staff. This staff has been gradually reduced and the number now employed is 371, not 429, or 107 above the pre-War number. This staff will be further reduced if the work diminishes, but at least one-half of the increase is due to administrative work arising from the registration and control of aliens and kindred matters, and must be permanent if the requirements of Parliament are to be carried out. Other causes of increase are the heavy work now arising in connection with police administration, the introduction of the cheaper system of multiplying documents in the office instead of getting them printed outside, the grant under General Service Regulations of the Saturday half-holiday and improved annual leave to the lower grades, and the employment of ex-service men in place of trained clerks and messengers. The requirements of the work are constantly under review, and every opportunity will be taken of further reduction of staff.
asked why the cost of the staff of the Inspection of Factories and Workshops Department has increased by £13,500 this year, although the number of officers has increased by only one?
The increase shown in the Estimate is mainly due to improvements in the pay and grading of the inspectorate and to new appointments of medical, engineering and electrical inspectors made in connection with the reorganisation scheme on which a statement was made in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Kensington on the 21st instant. A considerable reduction in the estimated expenditure will, however, be effected, as it is now proposed to leave unfilled 24 of the posts provided for in the Estimate, and thus reduce the figure by about £9,000.
Ministry or Health
asked the Minister of Health how many doctors have been appointed by the Ministry since its establishment; how many have been appointed on an annual agreement; how many for a term of years; and what is the total of their present annual salaries?
Sixty-eight doctors have been appointed in the Ministry of Health since 1st July, 1919, of whom eight are no longer in the service of the Ministry. Twenty-four of the 68 were appointed for a term of years, namely:— One for one year, one for three years, 22 for five years. The total salaries of the 60 officers still serving is £60,950, exclusive of war bonus.
Could the hon. Gentleman tell us what the war bonus amounts to for these officers?
I am afraid I cannot without a question is put down.
Could the hon. Gentleman say how much the 24 medical officers get to which reference was made?
I cannot.
Who is responsible for the appointment of these doctors and putting them in for a term of years?
The doctors have been appointed under the provisions of the Ministry of Health Act passed by this House.
Are any women doctors on that list, or only men?
Ministry of Shipping
asked the President of the Board of Trade how many of the officers and staff of the former Ministry of Shipping are still employed in his Department?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to the hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet on the 26th instant, of which I am sending him a copy.
Military Permit Office
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what are the present duties of the Military Permit Office, the number of officials employed, and the amount of salaries paid to each?
The duties of the Military Permit Office consist of the control of civilian passenger traffic to, and in transit through, British occupied territory in foreign countries. The staff consists of a chief permit officer, who is a military officer, two civilian examiners and two female clerical staff. The salaries are as follow:
Chief Permit Officer, £1,138 per annum. (Regimental rates of pay and allowances.)
Civilian examiners, £450 per annum each.
Female clerical staff, an average of £143 per annum each.
Are any of these gentlemen already in receipt of pensions in addition to their salaries, and could not their job be given to disabled ex-service men?
I cannot answer that question without notice.
Is there not a Department of the Home Office which does exactly the same work, and could not economy be effected by merging the two Departments?
I am not aware of that.
May I ask whether, judging by the figures given to the House with regard to all sorts of persons, the hon. Gentleman can state if Members of Parliament are to be considered as scavengers. I notice none of these with whom they are contrasted are so badly paid?
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the Foreign Office has a Department doing the same work. Could not economy be effected by co-ordinating the two Departments?
I cannot say.
Egypt
20 and 21.
asked the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs (1) whether a telegram from the representatives of 5,000 inhabitants of Kabreet, in the Foah district, stating that the authorities were obtaining documents of support for Adly Pasha in large quantities by fraudulent means, such as taking the seal from a man and affixing impressions of it to 50 documents with the addition of sham signatures, was sent to Lord Allenby, as being responsible for law and order in Egypt; what action, if any, was taken to deal with the matter;
(2) whether he has received information that Abdul Kader Mokhtar Bey, the then mamour ( i.e., district commissioner) of Abu Tig, sent by post a letter to Adly Pasha on 3rd May, 1921, imploring him to repeal order to the mamours and to the mudirs to force the inhabitants to affix their signatures to declarations of confidence in Adly Pasha and his Cabinet, and that in the letter he declared that he took the responsibility for acting thus, and that he did so as a mark of good faith in the British Government after he had read the statement that it was for the Egyptians themselves to choose their delegation; and whether he was subsequently transferred to the lonely, unimportant, and disease-ridden district of El Der?
22 and 24.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) whether the Mayor of Kalyoub, Egypt, Saladin El Shawarby Bey, was dismissed from his post without trial by the Ministry of Interior because he sent to the paper "Al Nizam" a statement complaining that his name was wrongly included amongst the supporters of the present Egyptian Cabinet in an official communiqué issued by the Press Bureau, whereas he had already placed his confidence in Saad Zaghloul Pasha, the President of the Egyptian Nationalist Delegation;
(2) whether Fouad Shereen Bey and Hussein Fattouh Effendi, of the Egyptian Ministry of Education, and Mohammed Khashaba Bey, of the Egyptian Ministry of Justice, three of the members of the committee of Government officials, of whom 1,000 entertained Zaghloul Pasha to tea at the Continental Hotel, Cairo, on 6th May, 1921, were tried by a council of discipline for being members of the said committee and acquitted; whether the Ministers of Education and Justice, respectively, appealed against these decisions; whether each of the nine members of the committee was also acquitted, but Sadek Henein Bey was dismissed from his post by the order of the Council of Ministers before his trial?
55 and 56.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) if he has any information to the effect that in the second week in June, 1921, the authorities of Foah district, Gharbeya Province, sent out to Bernbal, one of the towns belonging to that district, declarations of confidence in the Cabinet and requested the police officer there to make a tour of all the towns and collect signatures; that only two from Nahyet Bourg Maghzal, five from Nahyet Ezah El Wakf Kibly and Bahary, and four from Nahyet Bereidah signed, and this only after extremely severe measures had been adopted; whether, when none could be made to sign in Bernbal, the authorities sent out the town crier, who called out that there were things at the police station for sale by auction, whereupon many of the inhabitants went to the sale, at which the highest bidders were asked for their seals to affix impressions to the sale list, but that in reality they were being affixed to declarations of confidence in the Cabinet, and that when this trick was discovered a disturbance ensued and, had it not been for the timely arrival of the mayor and his good offices, a serious fight would have resulted between the inhabitants and the soldiers;
(2) whether he will explain why the official communiqué issued by the Press Bureau and published on 28th June, 1921, stated that Sheikh S oilman Amer El Kattawy, mayor of Mahallet Menouf, visited the Egyptian Prime Minister on 28th June, .1921, in Alexandria, and presented him with declarations of confidence from the inhabitants of his town and expressed his unlimited confidence in his Excellency, in view of the fact that the said mayor died suddenly from heart failure in Cairo on 25th June, and that he had not been to Alexandria for five months previously; and whether he is aware that the names of the late Mostapha Ismail Bey and of the late Mostapha Mayfouz Bey, late members of the, irrigation committees, were amongst the lists of names of those who went to declare their confidence in Adly Pasha, and that they both died some time before?
As regards Question 24, I have reason to believe that Sadek Bey Henein was dismissed by decision of the Council of Ministers in accordance with the law, but in consequence of a breach of discipline subsequent in date to that for which the other persons mentioned in this question are stated to have been tried by councils of discipline. I have no information as to the remaining parts of this question, nor in regard to the allegations contained in any of the other questions.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has anything to report as to the progress of negotiations with the Egyptian Cabinet?
The negotiations are pursuing their normal course. It was not anticipated that they would be rapid, or that any conclusions would be easily reached.
Is it a fact that these negotiations are against popular opinion in Egypt at present?
I think that is a highly arguable point.
asked the Prime Minister how many meetings have been held with the Egyption delegation; when a public statement is likely to be made regarding the progress of the negotiations; whether it is proposed to adjourn the meetings shortly and to resume them in the autumn; and whether the negotiations are likely to be concluded before the next Session of Parliament?
Four meetings with the Egyptian delegation have already taken place. With regard to the second part of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to the hon. Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. Swan) to-day. The answers to the third and fourth parts of the question are in the affirmative.
Prices and Descriptions Order, 1920
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of removing the restrictions governing the price at which whisky can be sold to the public; whether he is aware that the present high price of whisky is due to the fact that the Government takes 8s. 5½d. per bottle from, the price paid by the consumer for whisky 30 per cent, under proof; and will be explain the reason for the continuance of this imposition?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will revoke the Prices and Descriptions Order, 1920, in consideration of the cost to the taxpayer of the inspectors, officials, and legal advisers necessary to the carrying out of the said Order?
I have been asked to reply. This matter is under consideration.
Peace Treaties
Upper Silesia
The following question stood on the Paper in the name of Captain W. Benn:
27. To ask the Prime Minister whether he can make a statement on the present position in Upper Silesia.
I have been asked to again postpone this question about the troops in Silesia. I hope the Prime Minister will be able to give an answer early, in view of the grave public anxiety which exists in reference to this matter.
German War Criminals (Trial)
asked the Prime Minister whether he can give the House the number of German war criminals accused of crimes by this country who have escaped; and the number, if known, of those who still remain in Germany?
I have been asked to reply. The answer to the first part of the question is, so far as I am aware, three. The answer to the second part is not known.
Have any instructions now been given the British Ambassador to make any move in this matter?
I must ask for notice of that question.
National Industrial Conference
asked the Prime Minister whether the members of the Provisional Joint Committee of the National Industrial Conference have resigned; and whether they have given any reason for this action?
I have been asked to reply. The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I am sending my hon. and gallant Friend a copy of the statement on behalf of the Provisional Joint Committee which accompanied the chairman's letter to me. I shall propose to revert to the matter in submitting the Estimates for the Ministry of Labour next week.
I put this question to the Prime Minister because it involves a matter of policy. In the absence of the right hon. Gentleman, I ask the Minister of Labour whether it is not a fact that members of this Industrial Council resigned because pledges given by the Prime Minister to them were all repudiated?
I ask my hon. and gallant Friend to wait until he hears the other side of the story. I think that will put another construction upon the matter.
Liaison Officers, Ireland
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he or the competent military authority hold the responsibility for detailing commissioned officers of the forces of the Crown to act as liaison officers with persons who are suspected of the crimes of murder, arson, and theft?
All the arrangements made to facilitate the carrying out of the agreement as to a cessation of hostilities during the progress of negotiations were settled by the military authorities in Ireland in agreement with the civil government.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in at least one case, an officer has to meet as a liaison officer a man who is known to have been in a gang who murdered his predecessor?
I was not aware of that.
Would it not be better that the Royal Irish Constabulary —the civil authorities—should deal with these people, and not officers.
In the great majority of cases that is the fact now.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Ireland is an independent country, according to the Act of 1783?
Greater London (Government)
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government has yet come to a decision as to the appointment of a Royal Commission or a Select Committee to inquire into the question of municipal government in the Greater London area and the overlapping of existing powers in the present local government; and, if so, can he state when such inquiry will take place?
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that over 10 years ago his Department, when it was the Local Government Board, were considering the question of appointing a Committee to inquire into the government of Greater London; and if he can hold out any hope that this Committee will be appointed before the end of the present Session of Parliament?
My right hon. Friend regrets that he is not yet in a position to make a further statement on this subject.
In view of the great feeling now existing in London regarding local government and rating, is the hon. Gentleman prepared to say that something ought to be done to meet the situation before a general outbreak of revolt in the poorer districts takes place?
Awards to Inventoes (Commission)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the Commission for Awards to Inventors is expected to finish its work; and whether an announcement can; now be made that no new claims will be considered if not submitted before an early date?
As regards the first part of the question, I would refer to the answer given to the hon. Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison) on the 18th instant. The suggestion contained in the latter part of the question has been already considered, but there are serious difficulties in the way of its adoption, since in the case of patented inventions the patentee has a legal right to present his claim within six years from the date on which it arose. The matter will, however, be further considered.
Russia (Crops Failure)
asked the Prime Minister what information he has regarding the failure of the crops in Southern Russia through drought, and especially in the Volga Basin; and whether, if confirmation of reports of widespread starvation is received or has been received, His Majesty's Government have considered what action, either in conjunction with other Governments or otherwise, can be taken?
I have received no official news regarding famine in Russia, other than that given by MM. Klishko and Behrsin, members of the Russian Trade Delegation, to the Foreign Office yesterday. I have read in the Press, with much concern, accounts of the deplorable situation created by the failure of crops, combined with the breakdown of means of transport. On the other hand, I am puzzled by an official telegram, by wireless from Moscow, indicating that apprehensions have been exaggerated, and that recent rains in some regions and abundant crops in others will partially, at any rate, compensate for the failure in the Volga and Kirghiz districts. No requests for any form of assistance has yet been made to His Majesty's Government, and it would, therefore, be premature to make any statement as to any possible future, action.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of sending a message to our Trade Delegation in Moscow instructing them to inquire whether we can, on grounds of humanity, give any assistance, and, if so, in what form?
I would rather we had some representations on the subject first.
League of Nations
Assembly (British Representatives)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will be able to attend the forthcoming meeting of the Assembly of the League of Nations.
asked the Prime Minister whether he can give the names of those who will represent this country at the next Assembly of the League of Nations?
asked the Prime Minister if he can yet say if it will be possible for him to attend the Assembly of the League of Nations at their forthcoming meeting?
I can at present add nothing to the answer given by the Leader of the House on the 20th July, in reply to a question by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson).
Does not the Prime Minister realise the enormous amount of good that might be done by his presence, and the presence in consequence of other Prime Ministers, at the Assembly in Geneva?
That was considered very carefully in connection with the last meeting, and I was advised at that time that it was considered undesirable. However, I have always got that in mind.
When will the right hon. Gentleman be able to give us the names?
I should rather like to consult with my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council before I give an answer to that question.
Have the Dominions and India decided on their representatives yet?
I do not think so.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, according to reports in the papers, the League of Nations are meeting next week at Geneva?
I think it is in September.
May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he will expedite the announcement of the names of our representatives as much as he can, because it is evident—it does not affect me —that whoever is sent would like to know as soon as possible?
Yes.
Communications and Transit Conventions
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state the intentions of His Majesty's Government with regard to the ratification of the international conventions on communications and transit adopted by the conference which recently met at Barcelona under the auspices of the League of Nations?
His Majesty's Government have informed the Secretary-General of the League of Nations that they have decided to ratify both the International Conventions adopted at the Barcelona Conference to which the question refers, namely, the Conventions with regard to Freedom of Transit and Navigable Waterways of International Concern. His Majesty's Government have also decided to accept the additional Protocol relating to Navigation of National Waterways and the Declaration with regard to the recognition of the flags of States possessing no sea coast.
Washington Eight Hours Convention
asked the Minister of Labour if he has yet communicated to the International Labour Office its difficulties in regard to the ratification of the Eight-hours' Convention adopted at Washington in 1919; and, if so, when and with what result?
In conformity with the provisions of Article 405 of the Treaty of Versailles, a letter was sent to the Secretary-General of the League of Nations on 26th July, communicating the decisions of the Government in regard to the Hours of Convention and setting out in detail the reasons for that decision. I will in due course send my right hon. Friend a copy of this letter, to which necessarily no reply has yet been received.
Will there be a statement before the adjournment?
That depends upon when the reply is received.
Gkeece and Tukkey
asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government are still observing neutrality in the Turco-Hellenic war; and if the consent of Parliament will be invited before any change of policy occurs?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. In reply to the second part, I would refer the hon. Member to the statements made in this House on 16th June and 7th July.
International Trade
asked the Prime Minister what steps have been taken by His Majesty's Government to implement the declaration of the Supreme Council on 8th March, 1920, to the effect that the States enlarged by the War should at once re-establish full and friendly co-operation and arrange for the unrestricted interchange of commodities in order that the essential unity of European economic life may not be impaired by the erection of artificial economic barriers?
His Majesty's Government took an active part in the Brussels Financial Conference and in the Barcelona Conference on Transportation Facilities, and they have used their influence on every possible occasion to encourage action in all parts of Europe which will tend to replace the period of war and warlike peace by a new period of true peace and co-operation, which they regard as the highest interest both of the British Empire in particular and the world in general. With a view to the attainment of these objects, His Majesty's Government have further given every possible encouragement to the project of an economic conference of the Successor States which is to be held at Porto Rose in the near future.
May I ask whether it is not a fact that the Brussels International Conference, in which our Government took a leading part, advocated complete freedom of commerce between all countries, and why, in view of that fact, does the right hon. Gentleman introduce restrictions on trade in this very Session of Parliament?
We cannot argue that matter at Question Time.
War (Date of Termination)
asked the Prime Minister whether he can make any announcement as to the approximate date of the official termination of the War?
The date of the termination of the War (except as regards Turkey) will be the 1st September next.
Deptford Market
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he has received a letter from the hon. and gallant Member for South-East Leeds (Captain O'Grady) requesting, on behalf of the traders, workers, the Deptford and Greenwich Borough Councils, and the ratepayers of the locality, that he should receive a deputation on the subject of releasing the Deptford cattle market for the purpose of landing Canadian cattle and sheep for slaughter; and, if so, will he state when such deputation will be received?
Yes, Sir, I have received the letter from the hon. Member for South-East Leeds, and I sent a reply to him yesterday, in which I set out the reasons which have led me to the conclusion that no useful purpose would be served by receiving the suggested deputation.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a great many trades are adversely affected by the holding up of this market? I could give the right hon. Gentleman a list of— [Hon. Members: "Order, order!"]
I think I have had the full facts before me, and it does not appear that there is any large or continuous trade available for this market, and the country would certainly be involved in great expense by the surrender of the market. I am sure the last reason would be conclusive with the hon. Gentleman.
Bank Deposits (Rate of Interest)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been called to the fact that the London banks still make a difference of two points between the bank rate and the rate they pay on deposits, notwithstanding the fact that the bank rate has been reduced from 7 per cent, to 5½ per cent.; if this difference of two points when the bank rate is 5½ per cent, is much greater than when the rate was 7 per cent.; and if he proposes to make any representations with reference to the matter?
This is not a matter which calls for the intervention of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and, were it so, he would have no desire to encourage the banks to pay a higher rate on deposits.
Has not the Chancellor of the Exchequer on previous occasions exercised influence with the banks with regard to the rate? Is not this a War rate, and is it not time to get rid of these exceedingly high rates?
Answering on the spur of the moment, I should say that the answer to the supplementary question is undoubtedly in the negative, but if the hon. Member requires more accurate historical information on that point, I should certainly like to have notice.
Manchukia (Japanese Currency)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the introduction of Japanese currency into South Manchuria means the circulation of notes issued by the Bank of Chosen, a Japanese undertaking with a capital of Yen 50,000,000 and a note issue of over Yen 200,000,000; whether these notes are only convertible in the gold notes of the Bank of Japan, which can only be exchanged for gold at Tokyo; and whether China has formally and officially protested to Japan on the double ground that this new currency seriously infringes her sovereign rights and causes great local confusion?
I have nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) on 13th July last.
Passports and Visas
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in the case of travellers holding through tickets to any distant Continental country, he will urge that the necessity for obtaining visas for countries through which the traveller is merely passing be remitted, and thereby save considerable time, trouble, and expense?
This question was discussed at the Paris Conference last October, when it was decided that the, most practical solution would be the issue to travellers passing in transit through any country or countries of a so-called "transit visa," which would be .obtainable without difficulty to the traveller at a cost of 1 franc gold.
When is that practical solution going to be put into operation?
I am making inquiries.
Education
Teachers' Salaries, London
asked the President of the Board of Education whether any action is proposed by which the London County Council would be precluded from carrying out its salary obligations with the teachers; and can he assure the House that no reduction in teachers' salaries is contemplated?
The position of the London County Council in respect of its expenditure on teachers' salaries is under consideration, and I hope that I shall be able to make a satisfactory arrangement.
Grants and Scholarships, Teachers
asked the President of the Board of Education whether the taxpayer pays a grant for every student in training irrespective of his financial circumstances; whether teachers already graduates are paid three-quarters of their fees in order to enable them to get a diploma for teacher; what limit is placed to the number of county and municipal scholarships; and do these scholarships include maintenance and fees besides the actual value of the scholarship?
The Board pay capitation grants for students in training for the teaching profession, irrespective of their financial circumstances, provided that the student has entered into an undertaking to complete a prescribed period of teaching service in approved schools. A student who has obtained a university degree may be assisted by a grant not exceeding £35 in respect of tuition, after consideration of the report of the inspector and the accounts of the Training Department, to take a year of professional training leading up to a teacher's diploma. No limit is placed to the number of county and municipal scholarships, but a limit is placed to the grant which the Board will pay in any year in aid of the expenditure of local education authorities upon maintenance allowances; this limit is 3s. per unit of average attendance of scholars in public elementary schools within the area of the authority. The value of scholarships given by local education authorities varies; in some cases it includes tuition fees only; in other cases it includes a maintenance allowance as well.
St. James's Park
asked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he will undertake that, although the erection of the Guards' Memorial, facing the Horse Guards Parade, may be proceeded with, no other alterations in the present arrangement of the park and of the Horse Guards Parade will be made until the assent of this House has been obtained?
The Guards' Memorial and the road deviation in St. James's Park are integral portions of a joint scheme. Examination of the plans will show that it would be impossible to do justice to the monument as the ground is now laid out. In fact, I do not think the site approximately where the refreshment hut now stands would be acceptable to those responsible for the Memorial unless its approaches and visibility were improved as suggested by the Office of Works. My right hon. Friend will have seen from the Notice of Motion standing in my name that I propose to invite the House to sanction the scheme.
When will that Motion be brought before the House?
I cannot say definitely, but I hope at an early date.
Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman consider the advisability of abolishing all such expenditure, having regard to the curtailment of housing?
Well, Sir, any expenditure under these schemes for which the Office of Works is responsible is for the employment of those who are out of employment.
Can they not be found useful employment building houses?
Housing
Bricks (Price)
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that bricks at present in certain urban areas in mining districts are as high as £5 10s. per 1,000; can he take any steps to have the price reduced in order that houses may be built in greater numbers for the workmen, who are now living six and eight people in one room; and if he is aware that thousands of them are men, ex-soldiers who served during the Great War?
My right hon. Friend is aware that high prices are charged for bricks in certain mining districts, but, according to his information, this is due to the higher cost of production in those districts. The Government have no control over prices.
Is it a fact that the predecessor in office of the right hon. Gentleman put the price of bricks at 57s. per 1,000, and, if so, has anybody been fined for profiteering?
I am afraid I cannot answer that.
What is the use of putting a question if it cannot be answered?
Increase of Rent (Restrictions) Act
asked the Minister of Health, in view of the fact that Section 13 of the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restrictions) Act has now expired, what steps he proposes to take to avoid the hardships that must arise to tenants of dwelling-houses who let rooms occasionally during the holiday season and who have hitherto had a similar protection under Section 13 of the Act as tenants whose premises are used for business, trade, or professional purposes?
My right hon. Friend is advised that although the period of operation of Section 13 of the Rent Restriction Act has expired, the tenants of dwelling-houses which are used also for business purposes continue to enjoy the protection given by the other provisions of the Act. He would draw my hon. Friend's attention to the second proviso to Section 12 (2) of the Act.
What about the premises in use?
I am afraid I cannot answer that question.
That is my question.
Unemployment
West Ham Distress Committee
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the West Ham distress committee have been using their surplus accumulated funds for the purpose of providing work for the local unemployed and that these funds are now almost exhausted; and if, in view of these circumstances and the fact that there is still a very large number of people out of work in the borough, he will be prepared to make a grant in order to enable the committee to continue this necessary work?
My right hon. Friend is aware of the facts stated in the first part of the question, but in view of the provision already made by the Government for dealing with unemployment it is not proposed to make any grants out of public funds to Distress Committees under the Unemployed Workmen Act.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a large number of people who are receiving this benefit from the distress committee are those who have exhausted their unemployment pay, and, therefore destitute; and if they cannot get this assistance they will have to go to the workhouse?
I will convey that information to my right hon. Friend.
Where is he?
Relief Works
asked the Minister of Health whether his latest reports show any increase or decrease in actual relief works carried on by public authorities; and whether he can name those districts where actual distress appears to be most acute?
I have been asked to reply. There are now some 98,000 men employed on such work put in hand by the local authorities, or the Government, or both. The numbers employed on corresponding work at the beginning of February were 44,700; at the beginning of April, 85,600; and at the beginning of June, 106,800. With regard to the last part of the question, the districts in which the largest numbers of persons are registered with the Employment Exchanges as unemployed are the following. Greater London, Birmingham, Glasgow, Manchester (including Salford), Liverpool, Sheffield, Belfast, Leeds, Bristol, Newcastle-on-Tyne.
What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by "Greater London"?
The Metropolitan area.
Including Belgravia!
North Eastern Railway (Workers' Classification)
asked the Minister of Transport whether, now that a period of two years has elapsed since the national railway settlement took place, which settlement provided that every man and boy employed on railways should be classified according to their standard of employment, he will undertake to say when the classification of such of the messengers and caretakers on the North Eastern Railway, that have not hitherto been dealt with is likely to be accomplished?
My hon. and gallant Friend seems to be under some misapprehension as no national agreement provided that every man and every boy employed on railways should be classified according to his standard of employment, and there is certainly no such agreement covering caretakers or messengers. Certain conditions of service for head and district office messengers have recently been agreed, and the controlled railway companies in Great Britain, including the North Eastern, were asked on the 22nd instant to bring these arrangements into operation.
Police Inquiries, Tottenham
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to a signed statement made by Mrs. Vena Wammer, of 67, Lawrence Road, Tottenham, between 24th November and 5th December, 1919, to the Criminal Investigation Department at Tottenham police station, to the effect that Mr. Smellie, of 69, Lawrence Road, had a fourth child, named Margaret, who had been kept a prisoner in his house and finally done away with by her father with the assistance of Mrs. Ford, who lived in the same house, in March, 1919; whether, as a result of this, detectives visited and examined No. 69, Lawrence Road, and questioned Mrs. Ford; and whether it was proved to the satisfaction of the police that Mr. Smellie had never had a fourth child and that the whole tale was a wanton invention?
I have made inquiries and find that Mrs. Wammer made a statement in which she gave the grounds for her belief that a fourth child, Margaret, was at one time living with Mr. Smellie, at 69, Lawrence Road, but disappeared later in suspicious circumstances. The police officers who investigated the matter were satisfied that Mrs. Wammer was mistaken and that the suspicions with regard to the existence of this fourth child were unfounded.
Is this the same Mrs. Wammer that gave evidence against Mr. Smellie in a trial for ill-treating his children in November, 1919, and was her evidence then full of contradictions?
Yes, Mrs. Wammer gave evidence. She was by no means the chief witness. There were many other witnesses who gave evidence.
Was her evidence on that occasion just as full of contradictions as in this case?
Possibly it was; but he was not convicted on her evidence alone.
A most unreliable witness!
Women's Prisons (Governors)
asked the Home Secretary whether he will consider the desirability of appointing women governors to women's prisons; and whether he will consent to receive the names of suitable women for appointment to the governorship of Holloway Prison when that post becomes vacant?
A medical officer, already in the Service, has been appointed to be Governor of Holloway Prison. Two lady superintendents have lately been appointed, who will serve under him, in charge of the discipline and hospital side, respectively. There is no other prison used solely and chiefly for women prisoners, but a lady has just been selected to be Governor of the Female Borstal Institution at Aylesbury.
Cinema Films (Storage)
asked the Home Secretary when legislation to control film storage throughout the Kingdom may be expected to be introduced?
A Bill on this subject is under consideration, but legislation is not practicable this Session.
Cruelty to Pony, Petworth
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to a recent case where a Captain Vere Falkner, of Northchapel, Petworth, was found guilty of wiring some paraffin waste to the tail of a pony and setting fire to it, the result being that the pony had to be destroyed; and whether he will consider introducing legislation to increase the penalty for this type of offence?
I have seen a newspaper report of the case. As I said in my reply to my hon. Friend on the 6th April, cruelty to an animal can be punished by imprisonment up to three months. The sentence in this case was one month's imprisonment, the magistrates not thinking it necessary to inflict the maximum penalty. I could not propose legislation fixing a minimum penalty and depriving the magistrates of the discretion now given them.
Mesopotamia
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether agreements defining the obliga- tions of His Majesty's Government in Mesopotamia and Kurdistan are now under negotiation with the Government of Iraq, or with representatives of the Kurds; and whether he can give an assurance that no contractual obligations of any kind will be assumed by His Majesty's Government either towards the Government of Iraq or in Kurdistan until such agreements have been approved by this House?
The only definitions of the obligations of His Majesty's Government in Mesopotamia and Kurdistan are to be found in the Treaty of Sevres and the draft mandate for Mesopotamia. I can assure my Noble Friend that no new obligations will be incurred until this House has had an opportunity of expressing its opinion.
Insanity Certification
asked the Minister of Health what was the result of the inquiries, promised on 23rd December, 1920, into the injury sustained by a married woman, a nurse by profession, who was sent on 17th April, 1920, to St. John's Infirmary, Islington, in a state of delirium, was diagnosed by the infirmary doctor, certified as insane, and committed to Brooke House private asylum, Clapton; is he aware that later, after an operation for the removal of a cyst, she was found to be normal, and was discharged from the asylum three weeks after the operation; and will he, in view of the serious consequences to this lady, and her family involved by this mistaken diagnosis, take steps to expedite the publication of the results of this inquiry?
This patient was admitted in April, 1920, to St. John's Road Institution suffering from post influenzal mania, and was subsequently transferred to Brooke House at the request of her husband. In the following July an operation became necessary, after which the patient's mental condition rapidly improved. The inquiry, the result of which was communicated to the hon. Member last January, did not point to any mistaken diagnosis, and to give further publicity to the case would cause needless pain to this lady and her family.
Will the hon. Gentleman see that compensation is paid to this woman for the period referred to?
The hon. Gentleman representing the Government cannot answer that question.
Czecho-Slovakia (British Creditors)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that British nationals who were during the War prevented from obtaining settlement of pre-War debts owing to them by Czecho-Slovak nationals are now expected to obtain direct settlement of such debts; and whether, in view of the serious loss likely to be thus caused to the British creditors by the present depreciated state of the Czecho-Slovak exchange, he will immediately initiate negotiations with the Czecho-Slovak Government with a view either to set up a clearing-house system with Czecho-Slovakia or to secure some other equitable settlement of the claims of British creditors on the basis of pre-War exchange?
The answer to the first part of this question is in the affirmative. In the early part of this year a conference took place between the representatives of the Czecho-Slovak Government and representatives of the interests concerned in this country, including the Accepting Houses Committee, the Association of British Chambers of Commerce and the Bradford Chamber of Commerce, with a view to a scheme being formulated for the settlement of the claims of British creditors. It is understood that proposals discussed at this meeting are now under consideration by the Czecho-Slovak Government.
Tobacco
asked the President of the Board of Trade what stock of tobacco, manufactured or otherwise, the Government held on 31st December, 1920, and 30th June, 1921, respectively?
No stocks are held by the Board of Trade, and I am afraid I have no information as to the provision made for the forces.
In dealing with the questions which formerly were under the Ministry of Food, am I in order in putting this question to the right hon. Gentleman, and if so, why cannot I get an answer from him?
I think I have given the hon. Baronet an answer. I have told him that there are no stocks held by the Board of Trade.
Toy Trade Board
asked the Minister of Labour what has been the total cost to this country of the Toy Trade Board since its formation in 1920; and how many people were employed in the toy trade industry in this country in, respectively, August, 1920, and June, 1921?
The Toy Trade Board first met in September, 1920, and the minimum rates of wages fixed by the Board came into operation in June this year. The total expenditure during this period in respect of fees to appointed members and of allowances to them and to representatives of employers and workers has been £645. With regard to the second part of the question, I regret that no information is available to enable an estimate to be made of the number of workers employed in the trade on the dates named by my hon. Friend.
Is this not another instance of a trade board killing an industry?
Was this particular industry not killed by foreign competition?
Is it not a fact that wherever Trade Boards have been in operation they have prevented strikes and saved the workers from much distress?
Have they not in every case resulted in a decrease of employment?
No, but they have resulted in a decrease of sweating.
Parcels Post (South America)
asked the Postmaster-General whether the maximum weight of parcels despatched to South America by parcels post is 11 lbs.; whether, under the Postal Regulations of France and other European countries, parcels of 10 kilos, in weight are permitted without any limitation of size; whether one Customs declaration suffices for three such parcels, making a total weight of 30 kilos.; and whether he will consider the advisability of increasing the maximum weight and size of parcels from this country to places abroad with a view to assisting British merchants to increase their export trade?
The maximum weight of parcels transmissible by post from this country to South America is 11 lbs. Parcels weighing up to 10 kilos, and not exceeding certain limits of size may be sent by post from France, Switzerland, and Belgium to the Argentine and Uruguay, but so far as I am aware the limit of weight of 5 kilos, is in force in all other postal services between European countries and South America. One set of Customs Declarations may be used for three parcels posted in France, Switzerland or Belgium by the same sender for transmission to the same addressee in the Argentine or Uruguay. The same arrangement applies generally in the Parcel Services between this country and South America. I have been in communication with the President of the Board of Trade respecting a proposal to establish a parcel post for packages exceeding 11 lbs. in weight between this country and other parts of the Empire. I will also consider whether it is practicable to make a change in the present limitation of the parcel post to foreign countries.
Farmers (Railway Rates and Manures)
asked the Minister of Agriculture if any help as to special facilities of railway rates, or special manures, will be offered to farmers in and near industral areas who in ordinary times have difficulty in respect to pasturage by reason of acid and smoky atmosphere, and now with the excessive drought are seriously handicapped, to enable them to keep their milk cattle in proper condition to supply the needs of industrial workers in their neighbourhood?
I have been asked to reply. I do not think that any immediate results would be obtained by the application at present of any special manures to pasturage which is suffering from the drought, and in any case the Ministry is not in a position to assist farmers in the manner indicated. The provision of special facilities as regards railway rates is a matter for the Ministry of Transport, but I doubt if any useful purpose would be served under present circumstances by pressing for concessions to meet the conditions referred to by my hon. Friend.
Meat Prices
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that prices realised by farmers for beef, mutton, and veal range between l0d. and 1s. 2d. per lb.; that these prices represent a reduction of, approximately, 33 per cent, during the last six months; whether, notwithstanding these great reductions in farmers' prices, butchers generally are still charging prices varying between 1s. 8d. and 2s. 6d., and, in some odd instances, 3s. per lb., and are making profits of 100 per cent, or more; whether he is aware that the hides of cattle and fleeces of wool are both, approximately, 50 per cent, less in value than in 1913; whether, notwithstanding these enormous reductions in the cost of raw materials to the manufacturers, the charges made to the users of leather and woollen goods are, approximately, 200 per cent, above 1913 figures; and whether he will take any and, if so, what steps to bring prices paid to farmers and charged to consumers, respectively, nearer together?
I have been asked to reply, and, with the hon. Member's permission, will circulate the answer, which is rather long, in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The following is the answer:
I have caused inquiries to be made regarding the points raised by the hon. Member, and am informed that, though prices of inferior animals range as low as is mentioned in the question, the prices of first quality cattle and sheep are higher; that the general extent of the reduction in the prices of cattle, sheep and calves has not been as great as 33 per cent., though for the lower qualities of mutton a fall exceeding that figure has been recorded. The prices charged by butchers vary according to the cut sold as well as the quality of the meat, and prices substantially lower than those mentioned by the hon. Member are reported as being charged for those portions of the carcase which are usually deemed inferior. As I have not sufficient information to show what the average prices charged for all joints have been, I am unable to estimate the rate of profit charged by the retailers.
According to the information furnished to me, though some classes of wool have been sold recently at prices lower than those of 1913 by nearly 50 per cent., the reductions for other classes of wool have not approached that figure, and in the case of hides the unfavourable comparison with 1913 affects particularly the lighter classes of hides, which have, moreover, recovered in price since three months ago. Generally, I must remind the hon. Member that the wages cost of most varieties of work is very much higher than it was before the War. Manufacturers and traders no doubt endeavour, so far as the law of supply and demand permits, to cover the actual cost of their stocks and not merely cost of replacement. I cannot, however, for an instant contemplate the resumption of control from the producer down to the retailer without which, as experience has shown, no price restriction can be effective.
British Army
Sandown Fort
asked the Secretary of State for War why the military authorities reported that the occupation of Sandown Fort ceased on 4th October, 1920, considering that the Union Jack was flying there recently from the fort signifying some occupation, and that a service telephone exchange exists at the fort with two or more Royal Engineers constantly in attendance, and some 200 or more Gordon boys are or were quartered temporarily at this fort; and why the overseer of Yaverland, Isle of Wight, was not informed that Sandown Fort was considered vacated, as he is of opinion that it is not vacated sufficiently to justify rates not being paid?
I have ascertained that Sandown Fort has not been vacated by the Government. It was handed over to Royal Engineer charge as it was likely to remain unoccupied for more than six months and a notification was thereupon sent to the Treasury Valuer, on 4th October, 1920, in accordance with the Regulations. The fort was included in the list of flag stations and the Union Jack was therefore flown until the fort was removed from the list on the 5th instant. There is a telephone exchange at the fort which is used for military administrative services only. A party of 200 Gordon boys were allowed to occupy the fort as a summer camp from 1st to 15th July: this is not a military unit and no payment was made to the Department by the Gordon Boys' Home.
Why are the War Office refusing to pay rates?
I am afraid I cannot answer that question.
Military Service Acts (Defaulters)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the probability of the War being officially declared at an end on 1st September, he will consider the possibility of granting a general amnesty to all military defaulters who were called up for service under the Military Service Acts?
No, Sir; I am afraid I can add nothing to the replies given to previous questions on this subject, and, in particular, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer on 13th June last to the hon. Member for Govan. As explained on that occasion, it is not proposed to grant a general amnesty, and if any man who is in a state of desertion desires to make a confession to that effect he should write to the officer in charge of his records, or, if he does not know who that officer is, to the War Office, expressing a desire to surrender himself as a deserter. If he does so, his case will be dealt with on its merits, in accordance with King's Regulations and the Army Act, and any extenuating circumstances which he puts forward will be considered.
Are there any soldiers who were guilty of offences during the War period still in prison?
That does not arise out of the question.
Poland
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to efforts made by the Polish Zwiazek Bezpieczenstwa Kraju in Vilna to recruit for an adventure similar to Korfanty's if the decision of the Supreme Council relative to Vilna goes adversely to Poland; and will he make inquiries as to the activities of this organisation from our representatives in Kovno and in Warsaw?
The answer to the first part of the hon. and gallant Member's question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, inquiries are being made of His Majesty's representatives at the places mentioned.
Miami (Assault on Rev. P. Irwin)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has as yet any information as to justice having been done on the men who flogged, tarred, and feathered the Reverend Philip Irwin at Miami; whether the number of African-British subjects at Miami is considerable; and whether he is satisfied as to the views and activities of the British Consul at Miami?
His Majesty's Ambassador at Washington has been asked to furnish a report on the incident. I have no information as to the numbers of British subjects at Miami, nor any reason to suppose that there has been any ground for intervention by the British Vice-Consul at that post, seeing that the Judge of the District Court has ordered the Grand Jury to investigate the incident. His Majesty's Government have every confidence in the Vice-Consul at Miami.
Is this Vice-Consul a British subject?
I think so.
Exchange Rates
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in the opinion of the Treasury, the exchange rates are now of such vital importance on the necessity of trade revival as to call for another conference of the Finance Minister of the European and American Governments on the matter?
My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer fully recognises the vital importance of exchange rates during the period of recovery after the War. But in view of the conclusions unanimously reached at the Brussels Conference less than a year ago, he does not think a conference of the kind suggested, even if it were possible to arrange it, would be justified by results.
Can the hon. Gentleman say if this Government was officially represented at the Brussels Conference or at any other Conference on this most important matter?
The answer to that is in the affirmative.
Syria (Emir Feisal)
( by Private Notice )asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the statement that has appeared in the French Press to the effect that Emil Feisal, on his entry into Bagdad, announced to journalists his intention to reconquer Syria; and whether he has any information on the subject?
Yes, Sir, and I communicated immediately with Sir P. Cox on the subject. His reply has now reached me. He states that there has been nothing whatever in the Emir Feisal's speeches, whether published or unpublished, to justify such a statement. The Emir has never made any announcement to a meeting of journalists, and in the course of one very brief interview which he gave to a journalist in Bagdad his allusion to Syrian affairs was most friendly to the French. I am informed that the Emir has always deplored the regrettable misunderstandings which brought him into conflict with the French, against whom he bears no ill-will. He has repeatedly expressed the hope that through the friendly offices of His Majesty's Government happy relations would be restored. Sir P. Cox has no information as regards the source of the report, which has been contradicted in the Mesopotamian Press.
Is it not the fact that when M. Briand was last in this country he saw the Emir Feisal, and that there was perfect accord between the Emir and the French Government?
I am not quite sure of that. I must refresh my memory.
Airships (Proposed Sale)
( by Private Notice )asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the whole of the airships are being sold for scrap on Mondoy next. Whether negotiations regarding them are still pending with the Dominion Premiers; and whether he will give directions to suspend their sale or destruction until the House has had an opportunity of considering the final results of the negotiations?
( by Private Notice )also asked the Secretary of State for Air, when the Expert Committee's Report on Airships will be published, and, whether, in the event of the Imperial Conference not arriving at a favourable decision regarding an Imperial Airship Service before 1st August, the Air Ministry will postpone closing down the airship establishments until at least two weeks after the Expert Committee's Report has been published, so that the business men of this country may be given a proper opportunity of studying the Report before such a serious step as that contemplated by the Air Ministry is taken?
The consideration of the Report by the Prime Minister and the Dominion Premiers has been unavoidably postponed until to-morrow (Friday) morning. Until the Report has been thus considered, it will be obvious that I am not in a position to say anything further. With regard to the latter part of the question if the decision of the Imperial Conference is unfavourable, I cannot hold out any hope of postponing further the policy already announced. It should be remembered that no suitable offer has yet been made by private individuals which does not require a large measure of direct financial assistance from the Government.
Is it the fact that since the Armistice no less than £7,000,000 has been spent on these services which are now to be scrapped?
I think the hon. and gallant Member has asked a question on that and has received an answer.
In view of the enormous amount of money spent on these airships, which will be wasted if they are scrapped, can the right hon. Gentleman, without spending more money on them than is necessary, not keep the machines for a few months, in order to see what can be done?
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman at least keep the designing staff and the trained personnel, so that we may not sacrifice the whole value already obtained from an expenditure of £40,000,000 of public money?
Would that not be throwing away good money after bad?
It is not bad.
Although the policy already announced cannot be departed from, the House will, I think, realise that nothing will be done in the next few days which will prejudice the decision of the Premiers.
May I be told when the Expert Committee's Report will be published? Further, will the right hon. Gentleman not consider the possibility of not taking this serious step until the commercial houses, to whom he has referred, have had an opportunity of studying this Report, of which they know nothing?
Permission will have to be obtained from the Imperial Congress before the Report is published. With regard to the other question of the hon. Member, that is practically answered in the reply that the private proposals which have come to us have involved a large measure of financial assistance from the Government.
But how can private firms be in a position to make final proposals until they have the valuable information which the expert committee was appointed to report upon?
The proposals which have reached us from private sources are not lacking in expert knowledge. The Report passes no comment on their proposals in detail.
Business of the House
May I ask the Leader of the House if he will announce the business for next week, and, in doing so, will say what business it is intended to take after eleven o'clock?
After eleven o'clock to-night we propose to take the Report stage and Third Reading of the War Pensions Bill.
On Monday and Tuesday of next week we propose to take the Second and Third allotted days of the Report stage of the Railways Bill.
On Wednesday we shall take Supply— the Navy Votes. The Committee stages of all outstanding Votes in Supply will be put from the Chair at ten o'clock.
On Thursday we shall take the Ministry of Labour Vote, and the Report stages of all outstanding Votes in Supply will be put from the Chair at ten o'clock.
On Friday we shall take other Measures on the Paper, but, if the House will allow me, I will reserve a more precise announcement until next week.
On Monday and Tuesday further stages of other Measures will be taken after 11 o'clock. I will make an announcement of these on each day.
I hope that it will be possible to take, after 11 o'clock on Tuesday, the Licensing (No. 2) Bill, which has now passed through Standing Committee. [Hon. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I hope it will be possible to do that by general agreement. I have had expressed to me from many quarters of the House a strong desire that the Bill should be passed through this House at the earliest possible moment.
With reference to the Ministry of Labour Vote, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Minister of Labour will be able to make any statement on the position of the large number of workers whose benefit under the Act is quite exhausted, and who are totally destitute whilst still remaining unemployed?
That is a question which can obviously be raised on the Vote. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend anticipates that the Government will develop a new policy. They asked the House to make such provision as they thought was possible in the last Insurance Bill.
Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer make his statement on the financial position to-morrow on the Third Reading of the Finance Bill?
I believe that my right hon. Friend is endeavouring to obtain and put in order the material for that statement to-morrow, but I am not quite certain whether he will be able to finish his studies in time.
Does the right hon. Gentleman's reply mean that there will be only two days for the Railways Bill next week, excluding Friday, and that the fourth and fifth days under the Guillotine will be taken on Monday and Tuesday, the 8th and 9th August?
The Resolution relating to allotted days for the Railways Bill does not cover Fridays, and we do not propose to take it on that day.
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise the tremendous amount of work that he is trying to force through the House, and will he not consider the advisability between now and the end of the Session of meeting at 11 o'clock every day?
I have dealt with that question already. I am well aware of the strain on the House, but I do not think it would be lightened for that large and, if I may be permitted to say so, very valuable body of Members who have some other occupation, if the House were to meet at 11 o'clock.
Does the right hon. Gentleman remember his declaration a few days ago, that he did not intend to force the Licensing Bill through the House, and, in view of that, will he reconsider his determination to take the Report stage after 11 o'clock? Have not a large number of Members who are interested in the Measure been unable to attend the Committee stage, and does the right hon. Gentleman think it right, in the case of an important Measure of this sort, to allow the only stage in which the majority of Members have an opportunity of taking part to be taken after 11 o'clock?
"The only stage" is hardy a correct expression.
It is the only stage on which Amendments can be moved.
There has been the Second Reading, and there will be the Third Reading. I should like to say at once that I have no desire to give a controversial atmosphere to the Bill by attempting to take it at an hour which does not meet with general approval. My own plan was a different one. I changed my plan, and suggested Tuesday, in consequence of representations that have reached me from various quarters of the House; but if that be not satisfactory to the House, we will try and arrange something which is.
As the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not be in a position to-morrow to make his statement with reference to the reduction Circular, will he make a further statement, and, if so, when, stating the results that have been achieved by the Circular or the promises that have been made?
That is a question which, I think, the hon. and gallant Gentleman has put about 20 times in the course of the last few days, and I have myself heard it answered several times. I think I will wait until the Chancellor of the Exchequer is in the House and has made his statement, before adding anything to what has been said.
Perhaps I may as well say that it would be out of order. It is really a question for Supply, and not for the Finance Bill.
Licensing (No. 2) Bill
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee A.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, as amended ( in the Standing Committee ), to be taken into consideration To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 196.]
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Taunton Extension) Bill,
Manchester Corporation Waterworks Bill, without Amendment.
Amendment to one of their Amendments to—
Police Pensions Bill, without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to dissolve the marriage of Eily Kathleen Adamson with Richard Graves Adamson, her present husband, and to enable her to marry again; and for other purposes." [Adamson's Divorce Bill [ Lords. ]
Adamson's Divorce Bill [ Lords ],
Read the First time; to be read a Second time.
Bills Reported
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Newcastle-under-Lyme Extension) Bill [ Lords ],
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (Ossett and Wakefield Extension) Bill [ Lords ],
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
De Trafford Estates Bill [ Lords ],
London and North Western Railway (Holyhead Harbour Leasing) Bill [ Lords] ,
West Ham Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Stock Conversion and Investment Trust Bill [ Lords ],
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table.
Wolverton Estate Bill [ Lords ],
Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Bill to be read the Third time.
Orders of the Day
Supply
[20th ALLOTTED DAY.]
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
CIVIL SERVICES ESTIMATES, 1921–1922. [Progress.]
Class VII. Scottish Board of Health
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £1,875,999, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Scottish Board of Health, including Grants and other Expenses in connection with Housing, Grants to Local Authorities, &c., sundry Contributions and Grants in respect of Benefits and Expenses of Administration under the National Health Insurance Acts, 1911 to 1920, certain Grants in Aid, and certain Special Services arising out of the War."—[ Note. —£1,500,000 has been voted on account. ]
I beg to move that the Vote be reduced by £100. 4.0 P.M
I move this reduction for the purpose of calling attention to housing and to the insanitary condition, especially of the mining towns and villages, in Scotland. I will endeavour to prove that instead of a slackening or holding back in connection with housing in Scotland, there is a very strong case for more speeding up than is being done at the present time. For many years the trade unions, by deputation, have repeatedly brought before the Government of the day the conditions of housing in Scotland. We had the medical officers' reports, which in themselves were more than convincing as to the terrible state of affairs existing in Scotland; but whether the Government was Liberal, Tory, or Unionist, we were always met with the same answer— "No money; wait; but you have our sympathy." For over 20 years I have headed deputations on this question, and have invariably got the same answer. This is one of those questions upon which one is very much tempted to make debating points against political opponents, but I have no intention of doing that. The case, in my opinion, is much too serious, and my purpose will be much better served by stating the views of authorities—medical officers, representatives of the Government, gentlemen whose opinions cannot be questioned —as to the state of housing in Scotland, rather than opinions of my own. I believe that such a case can be made for speeding up housing in Scotland that it will be very difficult for anyone in this House to gainsay it. A Royal Commission on housing in Scotland sat from 1912 till 1917, and it did its work excellently. It was most painstaking, and made a very close investigation. It was composed of men belonging to different classes in the community, but, to their credit be it said, when they came to make their report their hearts and truthfulness rose above self interest, and they issued a report that demands the immediate attention of this House. The Report of the Commission was submitted to Parliament in 1917, and it will be seen from the summary that, so far as the industrial housing conditions in Scotland are concerned, there is almost an entire absence of everything that makes for home and home life. We hear a great deal about direct action, but I have been sent here by the people. This is the House of the common people, and the place where the conditions of life under which they live ought to be stated. The survey of that Commission was to the following effect, and I hope that Members will pay particular attention to it: There are instances of 11 or more persons living in a single room. This mode of life is reflected in the death-rate. We find that in 1911, the last year for which we have official figures, the death-rate in one-room houses was 20.14 per 1,000, in two-roomed houses 16.83 per 1,000, in three-roomed houses 12.63 per 1,000, in four-roomed houses 10.32 per 1,000, and so on. The bigger the house the less the death-rate. Well might the Chairman of the Royal Commission say:
I now come to another side of the question. It is very interesting in view of a conference discussing tuberculosis of medical gentlemen from all parts of Europe that is being held in London at the present time. I know nothing about medical science, and have to be guided more by fact than by the mere discussion of experiments in bacteria, and on the breeding of microbes. In the county of Lanark they have made a very close study and have got very elaborate data with regard to cases of consumption. We find that in the parishes for which returns have been made the percentage of cases of tuberculosis coming from one-room houses is as high as 80. The lowest percentage given is 75. Therefore, in my opinion, the commonsense method would be to concentrate on housing when we have such an illustration as to how tuberculosis is contracted.
But what are the conditions under which these people live having contracted tuberculosis? In the parishes of Blantyre and Cambuslang 78 per cent, of the cases occurred in one apartment and two apartment houses. Twenty-three had rooms to themselves, 41 shared a room with another person, 38 shared a room with 2 other persons, 35 shared a room with 3 other persons, 20 shared a room with 4 other persons, 18 shared a room with 5 other persons, 18 shared a room with 6 other persons, and 9 shared a room with more than 6 persons. If I take the parishes of Avondale, East Hilbride, Glassford, Stonehouse, Dalserf, Dalziel, and Hamilton, all within the County of Lanark, I should find exactly the same state of affairs with regard to the housing of consumptive patients. The cruelty of it all is that after they have been taken from these dens and hope has been revived in their breasts by residence in a sanatorium they are driven back again to live out their existence in the dens owned by rich men where they contracted the disease. The County of Lanark has spent more than £750,000 in the erection of sanatoria buildings. I am not proud of them. They are monuments to the ignorance, the selfishness and neglect of past generations. An eminent professor, in discussing this question of tuberculosis, says tuberculosis is the price that we must pay for civilisation. I entirely disagree with him. You may call it civilisation if you like. You may be able to flash a message to the ends of the earth, you may be able to fly in the air, you may be able to call for many of the thousand and one luxuries that the well-to-do enjoy, but it is not civilisation while the section of the population which produced these things are living in the condition of affairs I have mentioned. It is barbarism of the lowest possible type. It is only a step removed from cannibalism. The only difference is that we kill our victims but do not eat them.
What is a one-roomed house? I have considerable difficulty in convincing people who have never seen a one-roomed house what kind of place it is. I believe evil is wrought from want of thought as well as from want of heart, and during the last quarter of a century I have made hundreds of converts to improved housing belonging to other than the working classes by merely showing them the conditions under which the people live. During the last month I have spent several days going about amongst mining villages with a certain gentleman letting him see—I have to apologise for calling them houses, for they are not houses. The largest measurement I could get in a one-roomed house was a room 15 feet by 14 by 8, from which must be deducted 12 feet by 4 by 9 for two beds. In most cases in mining villages it is the living room, it is the dining room, it is the sleeping room, it is the washhouse, and it is the coalhouse. And every necessity of nature has to be done inside the walls of that place. Call that a home. During my visit—and it is not an uncommon instance—I went to a village where there were over 40 houses of the size I have referred to. The first house I went to is occupied by a family of eight—a girl of seventeen trying to keep the family together. On the wall is the proud picture of the father, who fell in the Great War. The two eldest boys had just returned from the mine. Tubs were in the middle of the floor and they were going to take their bath. Imagine that orphan girl of seventeen years of age endeavouring to keep a home together for her brothers and sisters under such conditions. Next door there are in the one house seven children and the father and mother. The mother the night before was confined. The children had to be lifted out of their beds and taken into the house next door. You can imagine the condition of that house, with fifteen individuals inside it, when you reflect that it is everything— living room, dining room, sleeping room, and water-closet, for there is no lavatory accommodation for man, woman, or child in the village. But what chance can that new-born child have? It is damned, doubly and trebly damned, almost from the very moment it opens its eyes in the world under conditions of that kind.
One speaks very strongly knowing these conditions and, going about from day to day, witnesses the noble struggles of these women to keep these places clean and send their boys and girls out into the world fit to fight the battle of life, and very often if you do not get sneers you, at least, get indifference from people who ought to know better. That is not civilisation. You may fill your libraries with books, you may stock your houses with treasures of art, but if you shut out little children from fresh air and pure food it is the sheerest hypocrisy to speak about the bettering condition of affairs with regard to the population of Scotland or any other country. During recent discussions it has been stated that the housing difficulty is due to the stoppage of private enterprise, and we must get back to private enterprise. These houses were built by private enterprise. They are owned by private enterprise. They are controlled by private enterprise. The conditions are a disgrace to private enterprise and a monument to its complete failure to provide decent housing accommodation for the people. The limitation of the number of bricks laid is frequently thrown at members of the Labour party as being the cause, but these houses were built in the good old days, when there was a greater number of bricks laid than is the case to-day. Why are the houses so small and so badly constructed? I want to be honest and I want to be frank. I believe one of the real difficulties in solving the housing problem is that all that rotten and insanitary property represents invested capital. These houses have been sold over and over again after they have been unfit for human habitation. You speak about the low ideal of the worker. He has a much higher ideal than the individual who condemns him to live under such conditions.
I believe one of the difficulties in solving the housing problem is that this rotten and insanitary property represents invested capital, and a real State-housing system will entirely sweep it out of existence. An hon. Member opposite once said, in reply to a statement of mine, that property had considerations before the rights of any individuals. Are right of property more sacred than the lives of our people. The most urgent need of the country is to spend money on houses. But this is not done. We are now told that housing is not stopped, it is only delayed. I want to apply that test. From 1914 to 1918 we had the Great War. I can remember the burning appeals, especially of the Prime Minister, for recruits for the Army, and for munitions, and still more munitions. Men from the homes of the wealthy, as well as from the homes of the poor, gave their lives on the battlefield. Munitions were wanted to save life and win the War. If money had been spent on less important production than munitions, there would have been an outcry in the country. How would such a proposal be regarded by the men who are now going back on their promises and holding back the building of houses? Men, women, and children are dying in the slums at a far greater rate than the soldiers died in the battlefields. Children maimed and diseased are going out to fight the battle of life in greater numbers than soldiers were maimed and diseased in the battlefield. In the case of the soldiers it was the sons of the rich and well-to-do as well as the sons of the poor. In the industrial battle it is only the poor whose lives are being sacrificed by bad housing and insanitary conditions. But in the eyes of God and man the lives of the poor are just as precious as those of the well-to-do. This is being done in the interests of economy. It is very little removed from murder in the first degree. Is it economy to waste human life and to pour it out like water on the ground? If it is economy, save these poor children from the miserable existence that they are doomed to. Let our mandate go forth that the children of the workers shall be slain so that in numbers they will not exceed the housing accommodation. We shudder at the thought of such a proposal, but that is what we are doing and have been doing by spending money on foolish military adventures, and in other ways wasting money that ought to be spent on housing. It may be a good debating point against the late Minister of Health (I have nothing to do with the quarrel between the Government and the late Minister of Health) to say that he ought to have left the Government in February. I sincerely hope that the Secretary for Scotland will endeavour to answer the question that has been put and that he will give some definite explanation, if he cannot give an excuse, because the Government has not answered the late Minister of Health's charge about spending money foolishly. The late Minister of Health did not always agree with Labour; he blamed Labour for holding up housing, but I would rather partake of his veal than count the pieces of silver with the Members of the Government who are going back on their promises.
I want to ask the Secretary for Scotland why money is being spent in far-off lands, in Palestine for instance, that might be spent in Scotland on housing. Can it be that the natives of Palestine have more influence with the Government than the natives of Scotland? The Prime Minister said that they are not holding up housing, and he asked us to compare what we are going with what is being done in America. I have heard something about the Pharisee in religion, and now we have the Pharisee in politics. It does not matter what they do in America or what they do not do. The point is, what are we doing here, and what are the possibilities of improving the condition of working-class houses? Do not let us cast our eyes to the ends of the world and put our hands on our hearts and thanking God that we are not like other nations. That is the Pharisee in politics. When a straight question is put, let us have a straight answer. Why are our wealth producers rotting in the slums while the Government is spending money on military adventures in far-off lands that have little connection with our country? I am prepared to admit that any Government that came into power would have a big task to solve the problem of housing. I have very little sympathy with some of the criticisms that are levelled against the Government on the question of housing, although I welcome every convert to housing. While the lamp holds on to burn, the greatest sinner may return. It may be a death-bed repentence on the part of these critics.
I am prepared to admit that anyone who undertake the rehousing of the Scottish and the British people have a great task before them; but even if there are great difficulties in connection with housing there is no reason why the mining villages and the mining towns and the miners' houses that are owned by wealthy corporations should be in the terrible condition that I have described. During my tour round these places in the last seven days I came upon village after village where the sanitary conveniences, or the want of conveniences, were a disgrace. I found men, women, and children on a Sunday afternoon sitting out in the fields because they could not remain in their houses. There were places of that kind within 15 feet of their door. A poor woman told me that she had lost recently two children through scarlet fever, and she said she was afraid that a poor little hunchback that was toddling at her feet, a diminutive, undersized child, would be taken also. I sincerely hope that on this question, so far as Scotland is concerned, there will be no holding back. Just when we were getting some go on in regard to housing, when the State houses were here and there beginning to raise their heads and to be an example of a higher ideal compared with the condition of the miners' homes, there was a stoppage of housing schemes. Two reasons why we have bad houses is because the people who provide the houses think they are good enough for the workers, and, on the other hand, the tragedy is that the workers think that that class of house which has been provided is good enough for the workers. We stood together as a nation never stood together from 1914 to 1918 to win the War, and surely now we can stand together as we never stood before to win the Peace. In the still hours of the night the eyes of the-brave soldiers who went to fight for freedom and never returned look into our eyes and ask us to fulfil the promises that we made to them of a better world. I sincerely hope there will be no slacking in Scottish housing.
I gather that the hon. Member wishes his reduction to have reference to housing only.
Housing and sanitation.
No one can have listened unmoved to the speech of the hon. Member. I know something of the housing conditions which he has described so eloquently and so graphically, and it was with something like consternation that one heard of the first announcement regarding the reversal of the Government's housing policy. It caused acute disappointment, not only to municipal authorities, but to social reformers and to the hundreds of thousands of people who are living under conditions described by my hon. Friend. To the latter there had come a gleam of hope, a promise of better days, a hope that the conditions under which they lived would be improved, and that they would be able to throw off those mean and degrading surroundings which stifle both physical and moral development. It was hoped that even out of the tragedy of war a new spirit had evolved, which would concentrate upon dealing with these houses unfit for human habitation, and which are described in the Report to which my hon. Friend has referred. The Royal Commission on Housing in Scotland was appointed by this House, and its Report was presented in 1917. I shall not weary the House by giving any long extract from that Report, but I would like to read one or two sentences showing the actual position which then prevailed. municipalities which demanded from the Scottish Board of Health houses with 9 feet ceilings. Nine feet ceilings are better than 8 feet 6 inches ceilings, but the 8 feet 6 inches ceiling met the medical requirements regarding housing. If 9 feet ceilings had been granted by the Scottish Board of Health it would have made a difference in the housing cost in Scotland of something like £1,500,000. There was one local authority in Scotland which required 10,000 houses, and they demanded as a sine quâ non in the kitchen of these houses what was called a kitchen dresser, at a cost of £6 per house. That, had it been granted by the Scottish Board of Health and applied to the whole of the houses required under all schemes in Scotland would have meant an additional cost of £500,000.
I only mention these matters because they give some idea of the enormous financial obligations involved in these housing schemes. The irreducible minimum of houses required in Scotland is 115,000, in order to let the people live under conditions where they can observe the common decencies of life. If we are to build these houses on the present basis of cost, it will involve the State in enormous obligations. It would mean, for a period extending over 60 years, a financial responsibility of over £300,000,000. This is a very serious amount, and the State contribution would have to be nearly £6,000,000 per annum for 60 years. I am afraid that that sum cannot be spent on the present basis. What, after all, is the State? It is simply you and me and every other taxpayer in the country. It is no use speaking of the State as if it was a separate entity which can fill up a blank cheque every time we ask for it. Every additional demand for money from the State means increased taxation, higher prices and increased cost of living. It is impossible with our depleted Exchequer to face the enormous responsibility at present, but while that is the case, we cannot allow our housing policy to cease. The present position, as far as I can understand, is that under the schemes approved in Scotland 24,000 houses will have been provided by August, 1924. That is an important though inadequate contribution.
I have much sympathy with what my hon. Friend the Member for Bothwell (Mr. Robertson) said regarding expendi- ture elsewhere, and I should support a reduction of this Vote if I believed that expenditure either in Mesopotamia or elsewhere were responsible for retarding house building in Scotland. On this point I want to ask for some definite assurance from the Secretary for Scotland. As I understand the position, house building in Scotland will go on as if there had been no alteration in policy during the next three years. I would also ask whether the local authorities will be indemnified for all liabilities which they have incurrred in preparing schemes or carrying them out under the provisions of the Housing Act? Further, I wish to ask him if the utmost has been done in Scotland with regard to concrete and framework houses? I attended an exhibition last year in London, where reputable firms showed houses actually finished, at a reasonable cost, which were very well planned and comfortable to live in, and it is surprising that there has been no development in that direction in Scotland. I would like to know whether that matter has come under the notice of the Scottish Office?
In regard to my own constituency, there is an entirely special case. The city of Dunfermline now includes Rosyth, and there has been no attempt to provide adequate accommodation for the Rosyth workers. We require at least 1,000 houses in Dunfermline, and for the workers in Rosyth another 1,500 houses are required at the lowest possible computation. I know that so far as the Rosyth workers are concerned that may not come strictly into the Department of the Secretary for Scotland, but the Admiralty, who are responsible for those workers, have pursued such a vacillating policy as to result in serious overcrowding of the houses in the city of Dunfermline. These workers have to be paid railway fares to live in the surrounding towns, while they also overcrowd Dunfermline itself. It is all the more necessary that this subject should be dealt with, because the population of Dunfermline has established quite a unique record so far as the last census is concerned. The increase in Dunfermline is 365 per cent., and its population of 39,888 is almost equally divided between males and females, the excess of females being only 28. Therefore, there is an altogether special case here, as the overcrowding is much more serious than in other Scottish communities.
Does not that include the whole of the Rosyth workers?
That is the joint increase, and is composed of the increase from the Rosyth workers and the increase which comes from the inhabitants of Dunfermline following the scriptural injunction to be fruitful and multiply. The broad fact is that you have an increase of population in Dunfermline of 36·5 per cent., while the average increase for the whole of Scotland is only 2·5 per cent. Therefore, I hope that my right hon. Friend will have something definite and encouraging to say to the Dunfermline local authority upon that particular subject. I agree that in the present financial condition it is foolish to place contracts for the remote future. The most elementary knowledge of business tells us that contracts placed with raw materials scarce and labour difficult to obtain will only force up prices. Therefore, the economic law once more cuts across the path of social reform. It will, however, reassure the people of Scotland if the Government will make clear that having put their hand to the plough, they will not turn back, but that in more favourable economic conditions they will redouble their efforts to remove from Scotland the stigma of inadequate and bad housing.
My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline (Mr. J. Wallace) has asked me several questions. Two of them I will answer at once and the others I hope to deal with before I sit down. The subject of concrete houses has not escaped the attention of the Board of Health, and, while I do not claim that the number of these houses which has been built is large, nevertheless tenders for the erection of 776 concrete houses have been approved and over 100 have already been built, so that that particular proposal has received the attention both of the Board of Health and myself. With regard to Rosyth, my hon. Friend very truly said that the question did not fall within the jurisdiction of the Scottish Office. As he knows, it is a matter between him and the local authority and the Admiralty, and while I shall be willing to lend my good offices for what they are worth in consultation with my hon. Friend with the Admiralty he cannot ask me to take any definite constructive action on this matter, because I have no power.
My hon. Friend the Member for Both-well (Mr. Robertson) spoke—I am sorry that he is not in his place—with a knowledge and authority on the question of housing, particularly miners' housing, which commanded attention and interested the Committee. He delievered a most moving spech and drew a terrible picture of the conditions which exist to-day in certain mining districts, and no one could fail to be shocked profoundly by the concrete instances of overcrowding which he gave. They are no doubt an outrage upon decency and a blot upon civilisation. I do not think that any of us, whatever our views may be upon housing policy in general, can have any doubt about that matter. He referred to tuberculosis, and, I think, to infantile mortality and their connection with bad housing. It is a curious thing to find, notwithstanding the shocking housing conditions to which he referred, that both infantile mortality and tuberculosis have steadily declined in Scotland during the last ten years, which would seem to indicate that, though bad housing may be a cause, it is not the cause of these deplorable occurrences. I am not going to weary the Committee with figures, but whereas in 1911 the infantile mortality in Scotland was 1152 per thousand it had diminished in 1920 to 92 per thousand, and while the death rate due to phthisis in Scotland in 1910 was 115 per 100,000, the figure had fallen to 88 in the year 1919.
These are reassuring figures, and while I am far from belittling the housing conditions which my hon. Friend pictured, nevertheless it is a curious phenomenon that in spite of these housing conditions the figures as to these two important topics should have improved so rapidly. But when my hon. Friend went on to suggest that for the state of affairs which he depicted the Government is responsible, and when he went on to criticise with some severity the recent announcement of housing policy of the Government, then I must invite the Committee for a moment to recall the facts. My hon. Friend's speech would have been entirely justifiable and appropriate if the Government had totally neglected the housing of the working classes, if the scheme of housing which it introduced in the Housing Act had been perpetual in its character, if the Government proposed here and now to scrap its whole housing policy, and refused in future to review the situation even when the financial circumstances have improved. On these assumptions my hon. Friend's speech was appropriate, but I hope to show the Committee that nothing is further from the truth than these assumptions. The present Government has made a larger contribution to housing problems in Scotland and England than any Government in the history of this or any other country in Europe or, perhaps I might say, in the world. It has incurred liabilities of many millions for the purpose. It has undertaken this task at a time when, if the need was greatest, the difficulties were most acute. I find that in the county of Lanark, in which my hon. Friend is interested, there are no fewer than 3,912 houses which have been built, or are building, or tenders for which have been approved, and that the amount of money expended on that account alone, or for which commitments have been incurred, exceeds £3,500,000.
These are startling figures, and when blame is attached to the Government for doing so little in the matter of housing it is only fair to ask hon. Members who take that view to remember such figures as those for the county of Lanark, in which probably there is as great need for new houses as, if not greater need, than in any county in Scotland. Again, my hon. Friend—I should like him to be present if possible—will remember that the Government scheme as introduced was by no means a perpetual scheme. This point has been dealt with on the Vote by the Ministry of Health. It is apparent to anyone who reads the Housing Act, whether the English or the Scottish Act, that what was in contemplation was that the scheme which the Government propounded was to be in force for a limited time and was due to expire in the year 1922. From the criticism which I have heard in both Debates, one would have thought that the Government had committed itself in the most unqualified manner and for an indefinite time to the very onerous and expensive schemes which were embodied in both those Acts.
Moreover, there is no scrapping of the housing programme and no refusal to resume it when financial conditions are more favourable. All we propose to do, as has been said from this box before— and it is worth repeating now—is to mark time and to call a halt in approving tenders until sufficient progress has been made with the houses which are now under construction.
5.0 P.M.
The high cost of material and of building rendered this scheme far more costly than anyone, even the greatest pessimist amongst us, could have anticipated. What is more, labour even to-day falls far short of what is required for the number of houses with which we propose to proceed. On 30th June of last year we could find only 2,783 men who would accept employment on municipal houses. This year, on 30th June, the number had sprung up to 12,183, but that is still insufficient, and, therefore, so far as actual progress is concerned, for two years at least there will be no change of policy with regard to municipal house building in Scotland. The houses which are to be constructed during that period will monopolise the labour available and could utilise more labour than is available. To go on approving tenders at a time when the price of material and other charges are rising would be a policy which it would be far more difficult to justify than the policy which I am commending to the Committee. So far as municipal schemes are concerned I gave the figures in answer to a question the other day. I will repeat them. There are at present 21,749 houses which have been completed, or are in course of completion, or for which tenders have been accepted, that is under the local authorities' schemes and public utility societies' schemes. Those are the houses on which work will continue, and which are unaffected by the policy which the Government have announced. Those are the figures for Scotland. The Minister of Health gave the figures for England, namely, 176,000.
Let me pass to the private builders' subsidy scheme. The number of houses in course of construction under that scheme or for which Certificate A has been granted is 2,220, which makes a total of houses under municipal schemes and under the private subsidy scheme of 23,959, or roughly speaking, 24,000 houses. It is true that the Government have de- cided that no more subsidy houses are to be built in the meantime. But this concession has been made—that private builders who can secure Certificate A from the local authority by 1st September of this year will be entitled to receive a subsidy in respect of those additional houses, and the Bill which is at present in another place extends the period for the completion of the houses to June, 1922, with an additional extension of four months if special circumstances so require. Why, with regard to these schemes, have the Government taken the course they have taken? The governing consideration obviously is finance. The hon. Member for Bothwell said something about Palestine. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, at any rate, has no connection with Palestine but is a native of Scotland and of the West of Scotland and knows its needs. He also knows the needs of the country, and he has a duty not only to Scotland and to those who desire to obtain houses in Scotland, but to the ratepayer and taxpayer in general. It is in the execution of his duty that these proposals were made and after anxious deliberation accepted by the Cabinet.
I put it to the House that it would be impossible to justify to the ratepayers, at a cost which was never in contemplation when this scheme was floated, and at a time like the present, indulgence in the indefinite pursuit of a policy which involves the purchase of material and the payment of wages at a time of artificial inflation. The scarcity of men and materials and money at a time when there was concentration—I refer to the last few years—on the production of houses had the inevitable result of forcing up the cost of houses to their present level. There is only one way to reduce the cost of houses and that is by the course which the Government have elected to pursue, a policy which in all probability will bring down the price of materials and the profits of the builders to a more proper level—to a level which they could never have reached if the old policy had gone on unchecked. In the present financial condition of the country—I do not care what Government happens to be in office—no Government would dare to pursue any other course than that adopted by the present Government, and, however little they liked it, they would have been constrained to take the course which we have been constrained to pursue.
Why did we pursue it? Is it not a very striking thing that the policy which the Government have adopted is the policy which was urged upon them by two independent Committees which looked into the matter? There was, first of all, the Committee which sat under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Derbyshire (Mr. S. Holmes). That Committee reported that a definite limit should be fixed immediately to the number of houses to be erected by local authorities upon the present policy. There was another Committee which I appointed in Scotland. It contained no representatives of this House, no one connected with the Government, but the members were chosen as carefully as I could choose them as representative of all interests concerned. That Committee made a definite report to the same effect as the other Committee. It said that, with a view of minimising for the future the difficulties inseparable from so much building activity on the part of local authorities at one time, public effort should be concentrated for a time on the completion of schemes already launched rather than on the making of additional commitments. The Committee suggested that in that way the building programme as a whole would really be more speedily and satisfactorily undertaken. That view I share. Before recording its conclusion the Scottish Committee heard voluminous evidence.
There are one or two points special to Scotland regarding which I wish to say something. In one of them I feel a very special and peculiar interest. That is the question of crofter housing in Scotland. The Bill which recently passed this House and which is at present under consideration in another place extends to the crofter and the small land-holder and the fishermen very valuable assistance, which will enable them to build houses for themselves. The crofter has a peculiar faculty for doing that work and doing it at a cheaper rate with the help of his fellows; but on the other hand he is engaged in fishing and other occupations during part of the year and therefore he requires time to carry out the operation. This scheme, which is the result of consultation between the Board of Health and the Board of Agriculture, is a scheme whereby a modified subsidy is paid by the Board of Health to the crofter. He gets £100 for a three-roomed house, £110 for a four-roomed house, £130 for a five-or six-roomed house, and so on. In addition he receives from the Board of Agriculture a loan of the capital to enable him to purchase materials and to get expert assistance. He will also get materials at cost price and free transport for those materials, the latter being calculated to be of the money value of £40.
Up to date there have been 400 applications from crofters. The Government have made the concession that any further applications made before 1st September this year will be entitled to share in the subsidy and loan, and certificates, I am informed this morning, have already been issued for the erection of 57 houses under the scheme. I hope that the crofter and the small landholder will take full and early advantage of this extension of time and make application, so as to qualify for the subsidy and the loan. The procedure is quite simple. Applications should be made at once. I hope the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Dr. Murray) will direct his attention to this matter, which vitally affects his constituency, and will induce his friends to send in their applications at the earliest possible moment. The certificate of the Board of Agriculture for a loan will be taken by the Scottish Board of Health as their authority to pay the subsidy on the completion of the house. Having regard to the special conditions with which the crofter is confronted, an extension of the period for the completion of his house has been made. He will be allowed until June, 1923, to complete his building.
Let me say something on the question of slums. Every penny of expenditure on slum clearances, under present financial arrangements, will have to be borne, not by the ratepayer, but by the general taxpayer of the country, and the Government propose to allocate a sum of £200,000 per annum for the purpose.
; Does that include the English taxpayer?
So far as expenditure in Scotland is concerned, I should think it includes the general taxpayer in both countries.
What security has the crofter to give for the loan?
Arrangements are I think being made to secure the loan upon the building. I am not quite certain about that, but I may say that I have had a great deal of experience of loans made to crofters, and the experience of the Board of Agriculture has been that the crofter is always more than willing, if able, to repay his obligations in an honourable and proper manner. So far as the slum areas are concerned, the Government propose to allocate £200,000 a year for the purpose, and I have arranged with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that Scotland's share of this sum shall be £30,000. I regret that the sum is not larger; we all do. But, while that is so, I agree with what the Minister of Health said a few days ago, that it is far better to do something in the direction of improving slum areas than simply to fold your hands and do nothing because you cannot sweep the slums away with a magician's wand. Let me repeat in language as to which I hope there will be no misunderstanding, that there will be no increased burden placed upon the local authorities as a consequence of the Government's proposal. If there are any schemes for which tenders have not been approved, but in respect of which expenditure has been incurred for lay-out, road-making, or similar purposes by local authorities, that expenditure will be a liability upon the State, subject always to the operation of the four-fifths of a penny rate. I want to make that clear to local authorities everywhere. It is unnecessary for me at this stage to elaborate the matter further. We had a very full statement from the Minister of Health on the State subsidy. I merely desired to point out, as briefly and as clearly as I could, the application of that statement to Scotland. I hope I have made it clear, and I will invite the House at the end of the discussion to support the Government in the attitude they have taken up, for the reasons I have endeavoured to set forth.
Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to give us some idea as to how he proposes to spend this £30,000? What he has told us already does not carry us very far in that respect.
That is perfectly true, but the hon. Member will not expect me at this stage—it was only in the course of last week that this precise sum was fixed —to tell the House precisely how it is to be allocated. I really have not had time to consider that. It requires most anxious deliberation, and I tell my hon. Friend quite frankly I am not in a position to give an answer to the question.
It is not a question of allocation, it is a question of the manner of spending.
When the houses now sanctioned have been completed, and at the end of two years, is it the intention of the Government to review the housing requirements of Scotland, and review the question of a State subsidy for the building of further houses?
I have not the smallest doubt that the Government will keep the housing situation under review all along, not only at the expiration of two years, but during the progress of those years. They will review the situation from time to time, and determine as financial circumstances permit what shall be done All I desired to make clear was that there was no refusal on the part of the Government to reconsider the matter, in different and happier conditions, with a view, if it be possible, to continuing the improvements which have been effected, and doing so, I hope, upon a more economic basis.
I presume the Government is not going to give any promise or guarantee to local authorities, that they will be reimbursed for any expense they may undertake in the meantime, preparing for the time when the Government's new scheme will be intro duced.
I do not think I could give any such undertaking. The scheme of the Government, if there be a new Government scheme, depends upon conditions which we cannot possibly foresee, and circumstances with regard to finance which it is quite impossible now to state.
I hope that by that time we shall have a new Government instead of a new Government scheme. I certainly will vote for this reduction Motion, and I hope the Mover will take it to a Divi- sion, because we have had no answer to the case which has been put forward in support of it. The gravamen of the charge is, that the Minister is only able to say that, for the purpose of dealing with slum property in Scotland, £30,000 a year will be available. I am not going to repeat the facts and figures, but my hon. Friend knows that that could easily be enlarged. I ask any Member who represents a burgh constituency in Scotland—I leave out the others for the moment, though in a measure it applies to them also—to contemplate what any single burgh could do with £30,000, towards the reduction of slums. Why, if it were applied to Edinburgh, it would not deal with more than two or three tenements in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham). There is probably more slum property in his constituency than in that of any of the other representatives of Edinburgh. [An Hon. Member: "What about the port of Leith?"] Someone asks me about the port of Leith. Well, £30,000 would scarcely do more than give a lick of paint to the slum problem in Leith, if it were tackled on a proper scale. Really this is what we are face to face with at the end of this discussion, that, in spite of the grandiose scheme of the Government, and the promises made by my right hon. Friend on behalf of the Government with regard to housing in Scotland, we are told that all they can afford to do is to give to the whole of Scotland £30,000 annually to deal with the question of slums. I do not know if my right hon. Friend, for the purposes of this Debate, read his own speech delivered on the 5th May, 1919, in this House, when he introduced the Scottish Housing and Town Planning Bill. If he had done so, I venture to suggest he might fittingly have clothed himself in sackcloth and ashes this afternoon. I will refresh his mind upon a few of the things he made himself responsible for at that time. He reminded us that there was an urgent claim—indeed he called it not a claim but a right—on the part of the people to have healthy houses worthy of the names of homes supplied to them. He pointed out that the Report of the Royal Commission was a damning indictment of the existing state of matters, and he went on to say that one could only wonder that it was tolerated for so long by a country which claimed to be civilised and religious. If my right hon. Friend believes that, how does he find it possible now to come to this House and support an uncivilised and irreligious scheme of housing before his compatriots who represent Scotland? He gave facilities the other day for—
Whereupon the GENTLEMAN USHER OF THE BLACK ROD being come with a Message, the CHAIRMAN left the Chair.
resumed the Chair.
Royal Assent
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
The House went, and, having returned,
reported the Royal Assent to
Ecclesiastical Commissioners Measure, 1921.
Supply
Again considered in Committee.
[SIR EDWIN CORNWALL in the chair.]
Question again proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £1,875,899, be granted for the said Service."
I was commenting, when we were interrupted, on the fact that the net result to Scotland was the provision of £30,000 a year for slums, a provision which I suggested was not sufficient to deal with two tenements in my own city of Edinburgh, and when one considers the amount of money spent by the Government in other directions, I think Scottish Members are entitled to complain bitterly that this is the whole product of the" Government with regard to a large social necessity of that kind in our own country. I believe the Government provide the Sultan of Nejd with £30,000 to keep him quiet in the desert, the same amount of money as my right hon. Friend is offering the citizens of Scotland to deal with slum properties. My right hon. Friend referred to the anomaly of the lower infantile mortality in spite of the housing conditions. He himself recognises that the housing conditions are the main contributory cause to that kind of mortality, and in the same speech from which I was quoting he himself points out, as the hon. Member for Bothwell (Mr. J. Robertson) emphasised, that the death rate in these houses is extremely high. In one-roomed houses children under one year die at the rate of 210 per 1,000, and in two-roomed houses at the rate of 164 per 1,000. My right hon. Friend went on to say that 50 per cent, of these houses are unfit for habitation, and of the two-roomed houses 15 per cent, are unfit for habitation, and that delay in tackling the problem can neither be excused nor defended. When the Minister of Health in England was put in the position of having his schemes overthrown, he promptly resigned, because he felt that he could neither excuse nor defend the position of the Government in giving up their housing schemes. My right hon. Friend has not gone the length of doing that. He has made a statement, however, as to the amount of curtailment that has to be faced with regard to this Scottish scheme.
What is it that my right hon. Friend now offers to Scotland? It is intended that financial assistance by the Government should be limited to a total not exceeding 24,500 houses. This number, my right hon. Friend went on to say, would absorb all the labour and materials likely to be available for the next two years. If the people of Scotland want to grasp what this means, they must turn to my right hon. Friend's own pronouncements on the subject. The position at the 31st December, 1920—six months ago—was that there were 131,000 houses required. Of those, 115,000 were to be provided by local authorities. My right hon. Friend had approved no fewer than 112,961 of those houses, and he now comes along and reduces that by four-fifths, so that .the total contribution of this Government to the housing problem in Scotland is to promise five times more than they are able to supply, and to give, as I said, a contribution of £30,000 for slums. What is the excuse offered by my right hon. Friend for this reversal or curtailment of the housing scheme is Scotland? I suppose it is admitted that we have more overcrowded conditions in Scotland than we have in any other part of the United Kingdom. My right hon. Friend made that plain in his speech, when he pointed out that, whereas in Scotland 8·4 per cent. of the population dwelt in one-room houses, and 39 per cent, in two-room houses, the corresponding figures in England were 1·3 and 5·8. So that it is fair to say that, so far as overcrowding conditions are concerned, Scotland is in a very much worse position than any other part of the country, and yet the contribution to check that growing evil in Scotland is 24,500 new houses which are not yet built, which my right hon. Friend says will absorb all the labour available, and a fleabite of £30,000 towards slums.
With regard to the question of labour, there is a very interesting statement in the Report to which the Committee should have its attention drawn. In December, 1920, we were told that the number of houses in course of construction was 6,737, whereas the number completed was only 574. We have to remember that that contribution of 574 houses for the people of Scotland inside two years included a large number of temporary and wooden structures, and we had the astonishing statement made by my right hon. Friend then that there were only 6,357 people employed on these 6,737 houses. Is it not a remarkable statement that in December, 1920, all that the Government could do in the matter of housing in Scotland was to provide one man per house for 6,737 houses? Of course, we had dust thrown in the eyes of the people of Scotland. It is quite true at that time some of those houses were actually built, and the rest were described as being in course of construction. According to the report which my right hon. Friend has furnished the Committee, what does "in course of construction" mean? I find that of those houses, no fewer than 1,706 had only got the bare posts put in, and that 1,388 had only got the foundation cut, or the damp course laid. There were 951 additional houses that were built up to the first floor. So that if you had these together, out of 6,737 under construction, 4,015 were either in the position of having the foundation cut or the damp course laid or the first storey reached. A tremendous contribution by this greatest of all Governments—this Government that entered upon a programme of reconstruction, and which meant to supply—and, probably, sincerely meant to supply—what the Prime Minister picturesquely described as homes' for heroes ! I want to ask my right hon. Friend why it is that that is the only amount of labour available? I went to the trouble this morning to take out the occupational census in the building trade from the last return one could get—that for the pear 1911. This year's, of course, is not yet available. What did I find with regard to Scotland in 1911? And the population has not decreased in these ten years. There were no fewer than 95,097 men engaged in the building trade. They included builders, builders, labourers, carpenters, bricklayers, masons, masons' labourers, and so on. What has happened? The Government, with all the power it has behind it in Scotland, could only find one man for each of over 6,000 houses as their contribution to the housing problem.
The hon. Member will remember that this is not a matter in which the Government as a Government has any concern at all. The local authorities had to find the men, and if there has been any failure to find them, it has been failure on the part of the local authorities.
My right hon. Friend said that this would absorb all the labour and material for the next two years; that is to say, my right hon. Friend had looked round the problem and he said the Government had made up their mind that this for two years was all the labour that would be available. I think he said that from December, 1920, the 6,000 had risen to 12,000.
2,783 had risen to 12,183.
The right hon. Gentleman is taking a prior figure. It was 6,000 in December, 1920, and now it is 12,000. What the right hon. Gentleman has in his mind, I take it, is that there will be only these 12,000 men available for the purposes of these houses inside the next few years, and that the same will apply to material. It is part of my right hon. Friend's duty, having promulgated a housing scheme, having been returned to power by the people of Scotland to carry out a housing scheme, to take the ways and means of making that housing scheme effective. I am pointing out that there are 95,000 available men in Scotland for the purpose.
When?
Now.
That was in 1911. A good many of those men are somewhere else.
That may be the explanation as regards a number, but it does not account for the difference between 95,000 and 12,000. The reason I advance that argument is that, on the one side you have the Scottish Office and those who represent the Scottish Office pointing out what they are doing and how they are doing it. For instance, Sir George McCrae, the Chairman of the Board of Health in Scotland, talking at the Tuberculosis Conference yesterday—I have only a summary of his speech—said: trying to describe those conditions, and that is backed up by Sir George McCrae. What the Government wants us to believe this afternoon is that the way that problem is going to be solved, the way to get at, the root of the disease of tuberculosis is to contribute 24,500 houses in two years and give the people of Scotland £30,000 to divide among 4,000,000 people in wiping out the slums.
6.0 P.M.
My right hon. Friend said something about the crofters. Let me say at once that we thank him for the effort he made in regard to continuing the grant. Everyone who knows anything about the crofter situation knows that one of the tragedies of Scotland is that in those large spaces of land swept by the sea air you get as bad slums as you get in the centre of Glasgow. It is a shocking state of affairs, and I say that it is playing with the whole question to ask us this afternoon to agree to a Vote of this kind which gives so little relief to the problem. I want to deal with the dilemma in which my right hon. Friend is involved. He said the whole question resolves itself into finance. What does that mean? It is a challenge to us on this side of the House. What he practically says is, Would you, in the present condition of the country's finances, spend sufficient money to make the housing conditions tolerable? Our reply is a perfectly simple one. If we had had the spending of the nation's money, we would never have dreamt of spending it in the way it has been spent. I suppose the Government are tired of hearing references to Mesopotamia, but I will give another in regard to Scotland. What is the right hon. Gentleman asking us to do this afternoon? While agreeing to an expenditure of £30,000,000 in Mesopotamia, he is asking us to agree to an expenditure of £30,000 in Scotland. We say to him, quite frankly and clearly, we would not spend the money in that way, and if it were within our power we would cut it off to-morrow and spend it upon problems such as those to which we are addressing ourselves this afternoon. The people of Scotland will not be impressed by economising on what appertains to the public health of Scotland, to the national life of Scotland, whilst so much money is being wasted in other directions; and if, as I hope and expect, the hon. Member goes to a Division, I shall certainly be in the Lobby with him as a protest against the promises that rang in my ears, and the ears of every Liberal and Labour Member who was returned for Scotland, as to what this Government was going to do if they got back to power. They were going to rid our cities of slums! What, too, of the provision that they were going to make for the returned soldier, and of the man who married during the late years of the War and after the Armistice? Those promises are ringing in one's ears. Knowing that these promises are bearing nothing but "dead sea fruit" it is the duty of every Scotsman who believes in the character of the Scottish people and in the conditions that ought to be provided for the development of that character to record his protest in the Lobby against this absolutely futile provision for housing in Scotland.
I have listened to this Debate with a considerable feeling of doubt in my mind as to what attitude I should take when it actually comes to the voting. The hon. Member for Bothwell (Mr. Robertson) made a most eloquent and stirring speech. I do not think he exaggerated by one whit the conditions under which some of our people are living to-day. I could not help thinking of expeditions I had made to certain slums in the city, one of those divisions I have the honour to represent, and of comparing the conditions in those slums with the conditions which he described so aptly and so well in his speech. I must confess to a feeling of disappointment as I listened to the reply of my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland as to what the Government had done, and what the Government was prepared to do in order to meet those conditions.
A couple of years ago we were aware in Scotland that at least 130,000 to 150,000 houses were required in order to house the people of Scotland in a way which would synchronise with modern conditions. The Government set out to meet those conditions, I know, with every intention and every desire to do so. I do not in any way wish to minimise the difficulties with which they have had to contend both from the financial standpoint and from labour; and they have not been able to accomplish all that they desired to do. At the same time I feel that Scotland has, in this instance, followed at the tail of England. I can remember in the Housing Committee two years ago that time after time when Amendments were moved which we believed were necessary, if not absolutely essential, to meet our special conditions in Scotland, that we were told that those Amendments could not be permitted because they embodied a different policy to that which had been decided for England, and that Scotland must abide by that policy. I do not wish to enter into the differences of opinion between the Prime Minister and the late Minister of Health. I do, however, wish to record my opinion here that it was owing to the policy which was framed and inaugurated by the late Minister of Health that the housing policy of the Government has failed to the degree it has failed. When one casts one's mind back one remembers that the whole policy of the Government in regard to housing has been based upon a policy of Socialism— a policy which would have nothing to do at all with private enterprise. I contended, and so did other Scottish Members, upstairs in Committee and downstairs here, that it was absolutely necessary, if the housing policy of the United Kingdom—of Scotland epecially, of which we were talking—was to be successful, that private enterprise must enter into that policy just as much as the enterprise of local authorities. I differ very much on that point from the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Bothwell when he said, if I quote him correctly, that private enterprise could and should have nothing whatever to do with building houses in Scotland because private enterprise had failed in the past.
Yes, that was my deduction.
Because private enterprise had failed in the past it must, therefore, fail in the future. In the course of his remarks the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland has not made one single reference to the question of rural housing in Scotland. I suggest to my right hon. Friend that the position of rural housing in Scotland is to-day exactly what it was two years ago. Certainly, to my knowledge, in certain counties of which I have experience, I do know that the county councils have not been able to cope with this problem at all owing to what was or was not con- tained in the Housing Act. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to say, if he is going to make any further remarks, what has actually occurred in regard to rural housing and what steps the Government propose to take in order to enable landlords to do repairs and to place their cottages in a better state than at present. I notice the right hon. Gentleman does not seem to think my remarks are worth listening to, seeing that he is talking the while to his Ministerial colleague—
Oh, no, no! The hon. Gentleman is mistaken.
Then in that case I withdraw my observation; but I do implore my right hon. Friend to take this question of rural housing into account in order that the agricultural community may reap the benefits of the housing policy of the Government, at any rate to the extent of the smaller steps that the urban communities have taken. I should also like to refer to the question of the £30,000, which is being allotted from the total sum of £200,000, towards sweeping away the slums. I suggest that the £30,000 spread through Scotland, in whatever it is allocated or distributed, will be utterly ineffective and of no use whatsoever in tackling this enormous problem. Personally, I think it would be much better if, instead of giving a sum like this, the Government waited until more money was available, and had then, gone forward with some comprehensive and fixed scheme for dealing with this very vital problem. I have not made up my mind yet which way I am going to vote on this matter, because I wish to hear the further remarks which no doubt will be made on the subject. But I do feel that the Government has failed in their housing policy in Scotland, and I attribute that—I say it once more with emphasis—to the fact that the housing policy of England, framed and inaugurated by the late Minister for Health in England, is responsible for that failure.
This is one of those occasions when it is far more simple and easy to speak against the Government than to speak on their behalf? That, however, is only so when we are, perhaps, blind to what are the facts of the case. It gives us the opportunity of recognising how difficult is the financial position. We are absolutely agreed—at all events, so far as I am concerned—in the general description given about housing conditions by my hon. Friend opposite. We cannot blind ourselves to that fact, that possibly we can render the best service to the housing problem in Scotland by assisting the Government, in some manner or other, to show that by carrying out contracts which were made when prices were extremely high is not the best policy for building houses throughout the country. Personally, I think if the Government had simply said they have got all their contracts made to a certain date, their tenders put in, and that they would reconsider the matter later, and had not limited themselves to any definite figure, it would have been the better plan.
I want to put two or three questions to the Secertary for Scotland. Has the right hon. Gentleman realised that in the mining districts it is far more difficult to get tenders and land than where there are no colliery operations in progress. You have to go to different authorities and therefore it is very difficult indeed for the local authority in a mining area to be on terms of equality with the area where there are not these obligations. There is, too, the local authority which has not gone in for huge schemes, but has gone steadily and quietly onward, and is now being penalised by this decision unless the Scottish Board of Health can assist it out of some of its difficulties. I know several places where they have spread over a large district the construction of a smaller number of houses and they have completed these. In another place they have introduced and gone in for a very huge developed area, with roads, drains, and so on, and where there are at present no houses showing. Of these two policies, I believe the local authority which took the trouble over a certain number of houses and could, and did, use the material at hand were far more businesslike than some of the some ambitious local authorities who possibly made a great splash and have nothing much to show for it.
I want to know what would be the position of a local authority which has had the courage to set up a large brick-making works. This local authority spent £4,000 on a creation of a cement brick factory which very materially assisted the building of houses in that district. What is the position of a local authority which has spent money in that way? Are we to understand that they will be reimbursed the cost of those works? They were urged to do something to get material on the spot, and that brick factory will always be useful. The question is, under whose ownership it will be, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give us some information on that subject.
There is one other point which really should be considered. In a mining district where a certain number of pits have had to be closed, and where there is great need to open up new pits, it is absolutely essential that the Scottish Board of Health should take each particular case into consideration. I know of various colliery companies and co-operative societies which are willing to combine together where sites have been acquired, but the tenders have not been approved, and I would urge the right hon. Gentleman either to permit some sort of scheme under a public utility society or some means of that kind, by which we can get the houses built in places where they are so urgently needed. There is not the slightest doubt that certain areas are in greater need of houses than others, and I think we should concentrate on those places. In one place in East Stirlingshire 700 houses have been condemned as unfit for human habitation. I think we ought to do something to encourage private enterprise in house building by extending the period under which houses can be put up, and in that way we should be going a long way towards mitigating this difficulty in the case of local authorities in Scotland.
I think it is somewhat an act of cowardice to run away from a desperate financial situation which requires a desperate remedy. Of course, I shall back up the Government's scheme, much as I dislike it, but this in no way alters my opinion as to the duty of the representatives of Scotland to take the first possible opportunity of seeing that the urgent need for proper housing accommodation is met. I have not heard from the Opposition one word of practical suggestion to get over the financial position. I have heard the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) suggest that we should give up certain expenditure in Mesopotamia, but that sort of suggestion does not help us to build houses in Scotland. What we do ask for is a united symposium of ideas which will make it possible to get over these difficulties, but do not let us blind ourselves to the circumstances, and, I believe, a great deal can be accomplished by goodwill instead of party criticism.
I am bound to say that I feel a considerable amount of disquiet in regard to the statement which has been made by the Secretary for Scotland. The right hon. Gentleman no doubt had a very difficult task in trying to explain why the Government had failed to carry out the promises which have been made by nearly every Member of the Government within the last few years regarding the amount of houses to be provided for the people of this country. It is no use the hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Major Glyn) to say that no practical suggestions have been made from this side of the House in our criticisms against the Government's recent proposal, because more than one speaker from this side has stated that if the Government had spent less money in Mesopotamia and Egypt and other parts of the world, where the people belonging to those countries are not at all anxious that we should spend money and are more anxious that we should clear out—if we had not pursued a policy of that kind the Government would have had in its possession to-day far more money to provide houses in Scotland and in England. Therefore it is no use the hon. and gallant Member opposite saying that no practical suggestions have been made from this side of the House.
Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that it is altogether right that we should not carry out our debts of honour and obligation to the men who fought with us in the War, because by doing that we should give up honour and gain nothing.
I do not know that it would be much good that we should have a wordy warfare on this point across the floor of the House. Might I remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman that so far as Mesopotamia and Egypt are concerned—
The right hon. Gentleman would be in order in saying, by way of illustration, that the money spent in Mesopotamia would have provided more houses, but he is not in order in discussing the affairs of Mesopotamia on this Vote.
You are quite right, Mr. Chairman, but I was tempted to reply to the statement made by the hon. and gallant Member opposite, and all I intended to say by way of finishing up this point was that it is not a question in Mesopotamia or Egypt of discharging our debts of honour, because we have had already there one revolt on account of our presence in Mesopotamia.
The right hon. Gentleman is now pursuing a discussion on our policy in Mesopotamia which I have just ruled out of order.
When I was interrupted I was saying that I was disappointed at the statement made by the Secretary for Scotland. I rose for the special purpose of trying to get an answer from the right hon. Gentleman on this point. He said that it was not the intention of the Government to scrap their housing proposals, and they only desired to go slowly for the time being because of the financial condition of the country. The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that even during the time that the Government were compelled to go slowly they would have the housing position in Scotland under review the whole time. That is a point on which I want to get a fuller interpretation of what the right hon. Gentleman has got in mind. I want to say that, unless the Secretary for Scotland and those responsible for housing in Scotland are prepared to keep the position under review, certain districts will be in a very serious position.
Already reference has been made to the City of Dunfermline and Rosyth areas. I want to put before the right hon. Gentleman the position in the district of Dunfermline and the district outside that burgh. There has been there a very large increase in the population during the past 10 years, and it would found by the district committee, when they came to review the housing requirements, that they required to build no less than 760 houses. Up to the present they have only been able to develop one site at Kelty, and that only to a partial extent. On that site the number built and in course of erection is 26 houses. The total requirements for that district are 210 houses, and out of that only 26 have been erected or are in course of erection. Out of the total of 760 required by the Dunfermline District Committee, only another 12, or a total of 37 in all, have been erected or are in course of erection.
The reason that there has been such a slow development in that particular part of the constituency, which I have the honour to represent, is because of the difficulty that has had to be faced by the district committee in securing suitable sites. This being largely a mining area, site after site that was inquired into had to be abandoned because of underworking. One other site at Crossgate has been delayed because of the position taken up by the district valuer. The district committee had fixed on a site, but the district valuer objected to the price that was being charged by the proprietor, and he asked the district committee to look around for another site. They did so, and eventually had to come back to the original site. After that the objection was raised that the original site was too small for the housing scheme contemplated in that district, and they had to enter into negotiations again. These things have led to delay, and this is one of the reasons why such a small number of the houses required by the Dunfermline District Committee have been built. Unless the Secretary for Scotland is going to give a generous interpretation to his statement that the situation will always be under review, such districts as I am describing will be in a very different position as compared with other areas where there was far less difficulty in obtaining suitable sites, and where they were able to get on more speedily with the work, and have a large proportion of their housing requirements either completed or in the course of erection, and must therefore be completed.
The point I want to put to the right hon. Gentleman is, does he intend, in the terms of that statement, to give such districts as I have named an opportunity of going on and completing an average proportion of their housing requirements. The proportion of housing requirements completed or in course of completion in the district to which I am drawing his attention is 4 per cent., far lower than the average percentage completed or in course of completion by other local authorities. Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly inform the Committee whether it is his intention, in making the statement that he will have the position always under review, even during those days when the Government requires to go slow, to bring up the proportion in the district I have named to the point it ought to have reached, and which it has reached in other parts of the country. I need not enlarge on the position in the mining areas. That has been ably done by my right hon. Friend the Member for the Gorbals Division (Mr. Barnes). All I want to add to what he said in that direction is this, that in the areas to which I have been referring, of the 760 houses it was contemplated to build, 255 are required to replace houses in which persons are now living and which are not fit to live in. In addition to that, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, there are a large number of the inhabitants in our mining districts who live in sub-let accommodation—in houses where the accommodation is, unfortunately, already overtaxed. These are instances where the Secretary for Scotland does really require to have the situation continually under review, even during the period when the Government will require to go slow because of the financial position.
One other crumb of comfort which fell from the right hon. Gentleman in the course of his speech was the announcement that it was the intention of the Government that there should be no increased burden placed on local authorities in connection with the schemes where tenders have not been accepted. I was pleased to hear him say that, because there have been a number of schemes inquired into in the Dunfermline district, but because of one difficulty and another, notwithstanding that money has been spent on them, they have not been able to go forward and have not got their tenders approved by the Board of Health. Under circumstances like this, I am glad to know that the expenditure incurred will not fall on the local authority. I hope that is going to be the case, because it will be a little crumb of comfort to those local authorities who have been under most difficult and trying conditions endeavouring to get suitable sites.
I have already referred to the fact that 210 houses were required in the Keltie area, and of that number only 26 have been completed or are in course of completion. For the building of those 210 houses, 10 acres of ground were taken at an annual feu of £80. If no more than 26 houses are to be built on that acre, it will place on the local authority a heavy feuing burden. I want to know also if the Government will be prepared to come to the assistance of local authorities placed in such difficulties, and I hope before the discussion finishes, the Secretary for Scotland or the Minister for Health will take the opportunity of dealing with that particular point, because I feel that not only will difficulty be experienced in the constituency I have the honour to represent, but there are other districts in Scotland where similar conditions will have to be faced by the local authority, and the Secretary for Scotland will constantly require to keep the whole position under review if the housing conditions are to be provided in the same proportion in all districts.
This is, I presume, the only day on which the Scottish Estimates will be considered, and I do not think a more important topic could have been raised on such an occasion than that of housing. The general opinion in Scotland is that the erection of something like 24,000 houses during these two years is not sufficient for the needs of our country. I know that in the Western Division of Clackmannan, which I have the honour to represent, there will be a considerable feeling of disappointment at the small progress that is being made. I have had communications from a committee of the Stirlingshire County Council, appealing to me to help them to get a larger proportion of the housing schemes carried to completion, and I am sure when they hear that not much more is going to be done, there will be grave disappointment. The critics of the Government policy today have paid too little heed to the position which the Government is faced with. We know that during the past two years the cost both of labour and of material has been enormous, and in fact labour has not been available for much work that could have been done.
If I were to criticise any part of the Secretary for Scotland's administration of the housing schemes, I would say I think the officials of his Department have paid too little heed to local opinion. I know of cases in Stirlingshire where local opinion voiced by competent representative public bodies has not carried the weight it deserves. In one particular case a company offered to build 120 houses. That scheme was kept back and has now been stopped very largely because the opinion of the public authorities there as voiced in the town council was not given that heed which it should have had. I think the building scheme should be carried on more in accordance with public opinion in the districts affected, and I believe they would be so carried on if the public authorities were given a little more liberty. I only hope that when the building schemes are resumed, more heed will be paid to responsible representative public bodies. I hope, too, that this stoppage of building is not really a stoppage, but only a marking time. Opinion in Scotland is almost unanimous that it is essential that more and better houses should be obtained, and any Government which comes into power will be expected to devote its attention to carrying on these great schemes of reform for the better housing of the people. In conclusion I would only urge my right hon. Friend to use his influence so that when the financial position clears, the authorities may resume the good work which undoubtedly can be done in this direction.
I am not going to detain the House by discussing generally the housing question, neither shall I devote any time to the pleasant task of discussing the Government changes of policy with regard to housing. We are getting used to those changes of policy. We do not think anything of them now. Their policy seems to be based on the military tactics of the brave old Duke of York. We are told that—
"He had ten thousand men, He marched them to the top of the hill, And marched them down again."
That is the sort of thing that happens with the legislative program of this Government, especially in connection with their reconstruction policy. They have a reconstruction policy it is true, but they have a redestruction policy as well. I am not blaming the Secretary for Scotland particularly in this connection, although, of course, every Member of the Government is responsible.
I would remind the hon. Member that the question before the House is a very limited one—the Vote for Scottish housing.
I have finished ail I intended to say about that matter. I wish to say a word or two with regard to housing in general. The problem is as pressing as ever, and, whatever may be the change in the policy of the Government, their duty to the country to fulfil their promises with regard to housing is as binding as it is to fulfil their promises to provide pensions for disabled men or to pay to the people who provided money for the country the interest on that money. The Government is morally bound to provide, by some sort of policy, houses for those who fought for us when the country was in peril.
Having made these criticisms, I should like to thank my right hon. Friend and his advisers for their successful effort in saving one particular item of the policy from the wreck. I should like to thank them for what they have done with regard to crofter housing. It is a most valuable piece of salvage work. I am not going to indulge in the ungracious practice of examining the teeth of a gift horse. I have very little criticism to offer of the scheme as a whole, and if it is carried out as regards the administrative part, I think it will be productive of great good in many parts of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. Somehow or other, however, these best laid schemes of Ministers go agley. They have a trick of going wrong, and, no matter how attractive they may appear here in the House, when I go up to the Highlands and look for the houses it is very difficult for me to find them. When I ask the people themselves, or the authorities there, why these houses are not going on, they blame the authorities in Edinburgh—either the Board of Health or the Board of Agriculture. I do not often criticise the Board of Agriculture, but I must say that, when I ask the local people in my constituency why the housing has not gone on with the expected celerity during the past two years, they are more inclined to blame the Board of Agriculture than the Board of Health.
There are schemes going on simultaneously in the crofter area—the ordinary municipal schemes and this crofting scheme to which my right hon. Friend referred. In my constituency, in the Island of Lewis, both schemes are going on, or at least attempts are being made to produce, houses under both. Both schemes are absolutely necessary, because there are places where it is almost impossible for a crofter to build a new house on his croft, on account of the shape of the croft. These crofts are sometimes so close together as to be merely narrow strips from the road down to the sea, it may be nearly a mile long, and there is no room for the crofter to build a house. Practically speaking, he can only do it on his own croft; under the conjoint scheme of the Board of Agriculture and the Board of Health. But the district committee, that is to say, the local authority, in the Island of Lewis, have two or three municipal schemes They have one in the neighbourhood of Stornoway, and others at Shaddach and Gort, and why they have not materialised so far I cannot understand. The local authority are inclined to blame the authorities in Edinburgh for the delay. Both these schemes, however, are necessary if there is to be any sort of progress in housing in those parts, and I hope that in the scrapping of schemes the municipal schemes promoted by the district committee of Lewis will be spared. I have been told that the number of houses needed there is 3,872, and these are urgently required to bring the housing conditions into conformity with any ordinary civilised standard.
My hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) was perfectly correct in saying that in some of these parts the housing conditions are as deplorable as in any city slums. Although they have the advantage over the city that when they come out of the houses they do get into fresh air, yet the housing conditions have been the main factor in perpetuating the terrible scourge of consumption which is such a terrible blot on the hygienic conditions of those islands. People think that in such parts everyone ought to be healthy and live to the age of Methuselah. Some of them do, but the unfortunate tragedy of the situation is that there is no part of the country where tuberculosis is so rife as in the Western Islands of Scotland. My own constituency is not alone in that respect. I mention this in order to impress upon the Government the fact that the housing problem there is just as urgent as it is in the big towns, and the necessity, not only of promoting this special scheme to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred with so much justifiable parental pride, but of urging those responsible at the Board of Health to proceed with as much celerity as possible with the municipal schemes sent forward by the district committees, so that the housing problem, or at any rate the fringe of it, may be tackled within the next year.
I do not like, as I have said, to look a gift horse in the mouth, but, having regard to the difficulty of letting everyone know in those parts, and to the time it takes, I think that the right hon. Gentleman, if he will allow me to say so, was a little too greedy as regards the time limit for applying for the subsidy. I agree that this combined proposal of the Board of Health and the Board of Agriculture is a good one for the crofter, because the crofter is almost as handy a man on land as he is at sea, and can do a great deal of the building himself with the assistance of his family. They need, however, expert masons and joiners for a portion of the time, and in those parts there is no great supply of workmen of that kind, so that not many buildings can go on at the same time. In addition to that, there is the difficulty of making the people realise that there is a time limit, because out in those parts we sometimes forget that there are such things as clocks and calendars. I do think that the right hon. Gentleman should endeavour to extend the time to enable them to qualify for the subsidy. If it could be extended to the end of the year it would be a great blessing. I do not think it would add very much to the financial responsibilities of the State, but it would give them a little more time in which to apply. Plans have to be sent in, and it takes these crofters a good deal of time to get them. I do not wish to appear too critical of the Government proposals, but I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to extend the time limit within which application can be made with a reasonable hope of success in getting the subsidy. If that be done, I believe that the combined plan of the Board of Agriculture and the Board of Health will have the effect of producing a large number of much needed houses in those parts.
I have listened to this discussion with great interest, but I confess I do not think that perpetual wailing against the Government, on account of the policy it is pursuing, is particularly helpful in the matter of securing new houses for the people of Scotland. My hon. Friend the Member for Bothwell (Mr. Robertson), who opened the Debate, complained bitterly of the Government's failure to carry out its full programme, and he proceeded to condemn individual enterprise in the matter of housing—as, indeed, he does in regard to everything else—in no measured terms; and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Fife (Mr. Adamson) proceeded to complain on his part that the Government's policy was not being carried out as he considered it ought to be. There is an entire lack of cohesion in the arguments of some of my hon. Friends in regard to the line that they would wish the Government to take. Some of them wish the Government to leave housing severely alone, whereas others are anxious that the Government should not allow individual enterprise to enter at all. It appears to me that the policy of the Government is perfectly clear and candid, and that all the talk about the way in which they are abandoning promises they have made is not susceptible of proof. Is it not the case that for two years every available hand will be employed in the building of houses in Scotland, and that as many houses will be built during the next 24 months as would have been built before there was this recent talk about changes in the housing policy? That is incontestably the case, and, therefore, I do not see that we need lavish any indignation on the Government for having done anything in the way of departing from their policy. There has been a good deal of loose talk, as usual, from my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh, about policies which hypothecate vast sums of money; but, as usual, my hon. Friend is more constrained to secure his parliamentary and political points against the Government than to stick to the facts of the case.
And you follow him?
7.0 P. M.
I do so much more effectively. We Scottish Members ought to lay party politics aside, and I am constantly endeavouring to do so. We want to look at the facts of the case. In regard to the development of the Scottish housing policy, much more harm was done in the way of delay—in connection, for example, with the full development of housing in Glasgow—by the joiners' strike, than will be done by the squandermania policy, if you like to call it so, of spending millions in Mesopotamia. Why did not the hon. Member for East Edinburgh mention that point We know that these sectional disputes in the labour world have been very detrimental to securing of the full fruits of the Government's policy, and it is really attempting to throw dust in the eyes of astute Scottish electors in the constituencies to come down here and try to pile up the agony by piling up a case against His Majesty's Ministers. Speaking of that part of Scotland which I know more particularly, if you go to Dundee you will find that the housing policy has been pursued very successfully indeed, while there is a small place further north called Montrose, where you do not have, as my hon. Friend (Dr. Murray) suggested that you have to do in the remote islands, to crawl on all fours with a pair of binoculars to discover the houses. You can see them clearly in that town. Then there is criticism of the small sum which is going to be devoted to the removal of slums; £30,000 a year is not a very large sum, I agree. But when my hon. Friends opposite criticise this, they should keep in view that this is not the whole of the money which is to be devoted to the slum problem. This is in the nature of a bonus. The statutory duty of dealing with the slum problem rests upon the local authorities. They must pursue that policy, and if they do it successfully they have got a claim to come in and get part of this bonus. I have no desire to deal at any length with these matters, but I would suggest that in Committee we, as Scottish Members, should lay aside altogether the attitude of complimenting, or criticising, the Government. We have to secure houses for the people as soon as we can, and I believe it is the general feeling of Members in this Committee that it would be far better that we should get back as quickly as possible to letting private enterprise in house building get full sway. We should do our best to try and get schemes promoted in the meantime. It is not fair, or accurate, to suggest that in what it is doing the Government is not honouring the building programme. Before two years are over the possibilities of securing labour, and getting material, will be better for evolving far more advantageous schemes than are possible at the present moment.
I was somewhat perplexed up to the last half-hour as to how I should vote. My heart has been with my hon. Friends opposite, and my mind with the Government. I heard the speech of my hon. Friend (Mr. Robertson), and I agree with him in the terrible indictment he made about about housing in Scotland, but the Government has no responsibility for that. Those are responsible who, in time gone by, allowed that kind of thing to grow up. It has been so since I can remember, though it is, perhaps, a little worse now, because during the War housing has been held up. This indictment has been laid, not against the Government, but against the apathy of the people of Scotland in times gone by—employers or employed, builders or tenants—who were content with the system of housing for Scotland. I have listened, and I am afraid I have listened in vain, for any justification of the indictment that has been made against the Government, or for any constructive proposal beyond what the Secretary for Scotland has laid down to-day for more houses during the next few years. I have heard a great deal about Mesopotamia. I am sick of hearing about it. The policy of the Government may be right or wrong regarding that, though I think we were committed to going there. I put Mesopotamia on one side, for if there had been men and material and willingness on the part of men in Scotland to build houses, Mesopotamia would not have stood in the way. Therefore, I dismiss this statement about Mesopotamia. I exercise a good deal of independent judgment as to how I vote, and I vote just as my conscience dictates. I have to consider how I should vote in furtherance of the interests of my constituents, and I think I am going to vote with the Government on this occasion, because I have not heard anything urged that the Government could do other than what they are doing. We are going to build all the houses for which there are men or material. Is there anybody who can disprove that? If anyone can disprove that, I will vote with him.
I have been in close touch with housing schemes in Scotland during the past three or four years. Those towns which went in energetically for housing schemes in the early days, when prices were not so high, have got housing schemes completed and people are living in the houses. Take my native city of Dundee. There they went into a scheme at least three years ago, and the last time I was in Dundee I went into the houses there. There is a block of 200 houses with central heating and every modern convenience. These houses were undertaken about three years ago along with many schemes of improvement in Dundee and the district. As a consequence, by the end of last year the houses were pretty well all occupied. Had others been similarly energetic before the later financial troubles overtook us, we would have had a great many more houses in Scotland. It is all very well shouting with the biggest crowd, but that will not get us any forwarder. There is a housing scheme on the borders of my constituency which was held up for the best part of last year because of the joiners' strike. We must have regard to these things, however much we may sympathise with the people living under bad conditions.
We must have pluck enough to tell those of our own class that one of the chief causes of the lack of housing during the past year has been the determination of sections of workmen to push their own cart without considering the interests of the community as a whole or the wages and interests of their own class as a whole. There is one thing which has been said during the Debate and with which I agree. It is that there are a number of schemes which have been held up because of the delays in the Central Department. Municipal authorities put forward schemes in the early days for thousands of houses, and they have been in communication with the Secretary for Scotland for a considerable time. They have then to cut down their schemes, and difficulties have arisen in consequence of the delays at the centre. These schemes have not got endorsement in time to be ready by the time monetary assistance ceases. When that can be proved, the duty, I think, devolves upon the right hon. Gentleman to make representations to the Treasury and to see that the municipal authorities are not damnified for what is not their own fault, but that of the Central Department. I think he ought to make that concession to those schemes which have been hung up.
This is one of the very rare opportunities during the Session which we Scottish Members have of discussing Scottish affairs. Let me say, first of all, that all of us who happen to represent urban constituencies are in a state of very great anxiety over the policy which has been laid down regarding slum clearances. I have always taken the view, knowing very intimately for years some of the worst parts of the capital of Scotland and other Scottish cities, that it would be, in reality, a good investment to concentrate for a time upon slum premises. I know that under present conditions you are confronted with the argument that you must provide temporary or other accommodation for the people displaced. Even if you have to do that by huts, or other means, many of us are still satisfied that the experiment would be well worth while. If we take the statistics of any large community in Scotland, it is notorious that the greater part of our ill-health, disease, and other industrial inefficiency is found in these crowded or densely populated slum areas They make a very large call upon the public health assessment, and there is no doubt that, directly or indirectly, they weaken every city and every community in which they are found. I think it is not unfair to suggest that we should revive the campaign, which was led with considerable force some years ago, with the object that, so far as we possibly can, we should give priority to the treatment of districts of that kind. It may be suggested that it is a remarkable fact that tuberculosis and other diseases are actually declining in Scotland, or in many parts of Scotland, at the present time.
It is not unfair to set against that this fact, that for four or five years you have had a very large portion of the population in Scotland overseas and in the open air, and particularly from the very densely crowded districts of Edinburgh there was, perhaps, more than from any other community, a large contribution to the forces, and consequently a marked effect upon the health of the area from which those men were drawn. But while tuberculosis and other diseases may be showing improvement, I am bound to mention, in connection with the housing conditions, that cancer appears to be increasing in many parts of Scotland. That is certainly the record of some of our statistics in Edinburgh. I am not in any way an authority on medical matters. I do not know how far it is possible to trace the prevalence of cancer to bad or indifferent housing conditions, but a large number of the increased number of cases come exactly from the same locality, and that seems to point to the importance of some investigation from the standpoint of this disease which in some ways appears to be taking the place of tuberculosis.
Surely it is agreed that cancer occurs in good houses as well as bad. You do not find cancer confined to bad houses.
I entirely agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman. That is the whole purpose of my remark. I said I was not an authority on these matters, and I did not know how far you could trace it to bad housing conditions. I entirely agree that you find it in every grade of society, but I am drawing attention to the fact that according to many of the statistics which so far we have obtained in Scotland, a large number of the cases come from the areas I have just described, and I am only mentioning that to show that while tuberculosis may improve, other diseases are increasing, and that seems to me to point to the importance of investigation.
The Government has announced that a certain modification of policy is necessary because it would be wrong to enter into commitments in present economic and other conditions, and that in any event the whole of the available labour, and all the rest of it, will be fully occupied in providing houses for which arrangement has already been made. In this matter I differ, probably, from other Members on this side of the House. I am compelled to view this as a plain economic proposition, and I am forced to ask whether you could really get in Scotland the additional labour, even if you could enter into and undertake more schemes, and, if you cannot get the additional labour, whether it is worth while to commit yourself financially under conditions which must be adverse to the taxpayer on the one hand, and to the ratepayer on the other. Speaking for myself, I am satisfied that we have been wrong in at least a certain part of the housing policy, in its financial aspects, which so far we have followed. There is no doubt whatever that in the economic conditions of this country generally since the War concluded, we have continued up to a point the artificial conditions of war, and I know, from some indirect connection with the experience of the building trade, that there has been in the building trade of Scotland during the past 2½ years a large percentage of the artificial conditions of the War period. It is also fair to say that that artificial condition has been maintained partly by the employers on the one side and partly by the trade unions on the other, and I am not at present apportioning the blame in any shape or form. I am only saying that the artificial conditions have obtained, and I am compelled to ask whether we can, with safety to the future of our housing policy, commit ourselves financially for any very long time ahead. It will probably be sound business to try to overtake as rapidly as we possibly can what we have already got in hand, and in the next year or 18 months to watch very closely indeed the course of building prices in Scotland, and to do everything in our power to get these prices down.
On that point, I am going to press a consideration which we argued very strongly indeed in Committee when the Scottish Housing Bills were going through. In some respects it is unfortunate that some of us to-day have not had time, or perhaps opportunity, to read the report which I understand has been prepared by the committee which investigated the cost of building material and the general cost of building in Scotland. In the Committee stage of the Scottish Housing Bill we drew attention to the existence of rings and combines, and all the visible and invisible agreements in the supply and sale of building material, and we argued very strongly that some steps should be taken to regulate the operations of these combines, or to try, at all events, to remove the adverse effects of many of these agreements as far as the community is concerned. The reply we received in the Scottish Grand Committee was to the effect that certain powers were already possessed, and that as regards the problem as a whole, it was not one which could be treated by an individual Clause in a particular Measure dealing with Scotland, but was rather a subject which must be considered by the Government when the whole anti-trust legislation of this country, if ever we are to see antitrust legislation, was definitely introduced. That may be, from some points of view, a valid argument, but every Scottish Member must agree that we shall require to wait for anti-trust legislation, because obviously it will excite the very greatest difference of opinion in this House. We pleaded strenuously that certain powers of a more or less complete character should be given, but unfortunately we were defeated in the promotion of these Amendments. There is no doubt whatever that in Scotland the price of building materials has been artificially forced up, I would not go the length of saying generally, but I say with conviction in many districts, by the operation of these understandings and agreements with syndicates and other concerns. It is perfectly idle on our part to agree that we must do everything in our power to get down the cost of building materials and the general cost of building in the next year or two, unless during that time we are prepared to take every step we possibly can to deal with these syndicates and combines.
In the next place, I want to say a word or two about the labour problem in Scotland so far as the building trades are concerned. The right hon. Gentleman has argued that we shall have very great difficulty indeed in getting the necessary supply of labour, and by that I understand him to mean the necessary supply of the right kind of labour, which is a very important consideration where Scottish housing is at stake. In this matter again I am compelled to admit that there are great difficulties in the labour of the building trades of Scotland at present, and I, think it is only fair to point out that while we might commit ourselves to many schemes, there is a real shortage of the trained and skilled classes of workmen. One of the most tragic facts regarding building labour in Scotland is that for many years we have trained hardly a single apprentice, and every hon. Member knows that our housing problem in Scotland is vitally different from that in England, because we relied, at all events in the past, very largely upon our masons and not so much upon bricklayers as they did south of the Tweed. Let us ask any building employer in Scotland where that supply of highly skilled, or even, if you like, semi-skilled labour comes in, and almost everyone admits that there is not only a great shortage, but that from some points of view the quality itself has deteriorated.
These, I think, are practical considerations, and the point I am going to press on the Government is that they will not really meet their future opportunities in solving the problem of Scottish housing and in building the very large number of houses which will be required after the expiry of two years or more unless at the same time they are going, through the Ministry of Labour and with the cooperation of the trade unions and other bodies, to take definite steps to put this question of building trade labour on a proper footing. I recognise at once that that is a very large issue, but there are many workmen in the building trade in Scotland who are willing to see that inquiry undertaken. They know exactly what has happened in the building trades, and they know also the effect which, from their point of view, the dilution of recent years has had. These are two of the considerations which I press upon the attention of the Government, the definite steps which may be taken in the next year or two to get down the price of building materials, and the equally important step which must be taken of improving the organisation and the quality and the general standard of building labour in Scotland.
It has been suggested in some quarters that so far from limiting the liability of the local authorities in Scotland in future to the product of a rate of four-fifths of a penny in the £ we must in housing and in other matters exact a larger contribution from the ratepayers of individual districts. I sincerely trust that before any step of that kind is taken the position will be most carefully surveyed. This involves really the relationship of national to local taxation. An important Committee has made far-reach- ing inquiry in Scotland, and in due course we shall get its Report. Practically all the large local authorities of Scotland at present, and many of the smaller local authorities, direct attention to the fact that they are now carrying annually a financial burden which can hardly be increased and which they find it very difficult indeed to meet. Before we think of housing at all, let us remember that we have added to the burdens of these local authorities under the 50 per cent, contribution which they have to make in many of the schemes of recent times, and only a few days ago some of our very large local authorities were in difficulties regarding the application of the Blind Persons Act, among other things, and that is one of the most urgent cases which could be cited because of the additional financial burden it involves. The remedy lies, of course, in the proper adjustment of national to local taxation. It is unfair to burden especially the large local authorities in Scotland with additional rates in respect of many of these problems which are really national in character, and above all, we can never forget that the cities and the large towns are really clearing houses for a great deal of the enterprise of the country at large, and it is therefore reasonable to suggest that the contributions in money must be more or less on a national scale. These are points which appeal to me in the discussion of the problem under review. I have seen nothing in Scotland during the last two or three years to indicate that there is any weakening in the interest of the people in this most urgent matter, but I have seen a great deal to indicate that we must take determined steps now, in the fresh situation which has arisen, to put it on a proper and, above all, if we can, on an economic footing.
Hon. Members are anxious to get to the discussion of other Votes which are almost, if not quite, as important as this one, therefore I will be brief. My right hon. Friend in his full and lucid statement covered the whole ground so thoroughly, and met by anticipation so many of the questions and criticisms that have since been raised, that it leaves me with very little to do. Several hon. Members have raised the question of rural houses, and the hon. Member for the St. Rollox Division (Mr. G. Murray) made special reference to that. I gathered from the tone of his remarks that he was disappointed with the relative progress in housing in the rural areas of Scotland. I can only give him the figures with regard both to the burghal and the landward areas. The figures in the burghal areas are 7,508, and in the landward areas 3,173. If he will relate these two figures to the population, I think he will see that his complaint, while there is something in it, should not be pressed so far as he was inclined to press it. The landward areas have, perhaps, greater difficulties, with which he is as familiar as I am. The method of procedure may, perhaps, be slower; but I can assure him that those difficulties, those necessary delays, during the last few months, will be borne in mind in relation to the disposal of the surplus houses with which the Scottish Board of Health will have to deal. A series of questions were put in regard to the position of local authorities who have acquired land and have already incurred certain expenditure. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for E. Stirlingshire made a specific reference to the question of brick works that had been purchased by one of the local authorities in his constituency. I would like to assure him that in every such case where a purchase was undertaken with the approval of the Scottish Board of Health the local authority will not be subject to anything further than the four-fifths of a penny rate in regard to the matter.
Does that mean the value of land or the value of work done?
I was referring at the moment to brickworks, but the same principle applies, that beyond four-fifths of a penny rate a local authority will not be mulcted in any further loss in regard to these schemes, whether they acquire land, or brickworks, etc., with the approval of the Scottish Board of Health. Some instances have been given where the Scottish Board of Health had been rather dilatory in the opinion of the local authorities concerned. It would ill become me, as one who for many years was a member of a local authority in Scotland, to cast one word of criticism upon the local authorities. Speaking generally, the local authorities, both burghal and landward, have done splendid service since these housing schemes were started, but some of them have had greater difficulties than others. Take the case referred to by the right hon. Member for the Gorbals Division (Mr. G. Barnes). He dealt with the case of Dundee. Dundee was fortunate enough to get a very early start. Bight from the beginning of the scheme it got on with the work, with the result that there were people occupying the houses built under the scheme in the city of Dundee long before many other local authorities, with presumably just as great an eagerness to get on with the work, and with just as great capacity to get on with the work, had even begun to build.
I would like to call the attention of the Committee to what was said by the Committee set up by my right hon. Friend to deal with the cost of building, after it had gone with great care and with great patience and great fairness into this aspect of the housing schemes in Scotland. This was the finding of this very impartial and very able Committee: for extra time, and I would ask my hon. Friend to assist the efforts of the Board in his own part of the country during the weeks that remain to assure his constituents that while they must make their application within that time, so far as the crofting areas are concerned, the period for the completion of the work will still remain as June, 1923.
Will it be necessary to put in the plans within that time, or will the application be sufficient?
I understand that the application must be sent in.
Not necessarily the plans?
Not necessarily the plans. It is gratifying to find that only in one or two instances has there been any charge against the Government, so far as housing in Scotland is concerned, of having broken their pledge. I realise that there is a sense of disappointment that more has not been done, but after listening to the whole of the Debate I note that, with one or two exceptions, hon. Members were conscious that the Government had done the wisest thing in calling a temporary halt in regard to housing schemes under the present set of proposals. We have been reminded once or twice, and we can never foe reminded too often, that, after all, the duty has been put upon the local authorities to deal with the housing of the working classes, and the clearing of slum areas. What the Government proposed was that for a certain number of years schemes which were approved by the central authorities should receive substantial assistance. These schemes have now been limited to a certain number; but I can assure the Committee, on behalf of my right hon. Friend, that when he said, speaking for himself and the Board of Health, that this question is to be kept under review, he meant those words very seriously. No man more than the Secretary for Scotland is so conscious of the housing conditions that still exist in Scotland, and I give his assurance to the Committee that this grave problem, to the solution of which the Government has made a substantial and a' worthy contribution, will be kept under review. There is still much left undone. So far as the Board of Health is concerned, and so far as my right hon. Friend is concerned, the Com- mittee may rest assured that we are halting so that we may, later on, go forward when prices and labour and other problems are less acute than they are to-day, and so that we may take up with renewed zeal the great task of dealing with housing conditions in Scotland. I appeal to the Committee to let us have this Vote now.
I was intending merely to make one or two practical suggestion's to the Government respecting the decision which the Government has made applying to Scotland as to England in regard to housing; but when my hon. Friend said that with one or two exceptions he was glad to see that no one had charged the Government with a breach of pledge, I immediately determined to provide at least another exception for the consideration of the hon. Gentleman. I do not want to deal with it because the thing has been threshed out, but what has happened has been that Scotland has been dragged at the tail of England in the policy of a complete reversal of the pledges that were given by the Government for the whole country at the last General Election. If the Under-Secretary for the Scottish Board of Health really persists in the statement that there is no ground for supposing that the Government has broken its promises in this matter, then that statement requires immediate refutation. There is the statement from their own Commission, the statement of Sir George McCrae that they must raise the standard of housing in Scotland and that the cry of economy in housing was not only a mistake but a crime. That was the sort of statement that was made, and the present policy is a complete repudiation of it.
But I do not want to go into that, because the ground has been covered, and the public can judge as to the truth. I cannot understand the attitude of hon. Members who say, "What has money got to do with this? Why drag in Mesopotamia?" The whole case is based on financial stringency, and when the Government explain that they cannot build because they have no money, we are entitled to ask, what have they done with the money? What I did intend to do was sadly to accept the decision of the Government and to ask one or two practical questions as to the way in which the decision is to be carried out. I have had a communication, and no doubt the right hon. Gentleman has had one himself, from the Edinburgh City Council, a municipal authority which is closely interested in this matter. They do raise a question as to the cost of constructing roads, drains, plans, etc. I understand that they do not propose to make a claim in respect of land, but that the Under-Secretary is prepared to consider claims from these authorities in respect to the price of land as well as the price of works, plans prepared, surveyors' fees, etc. If that is so, it is pro tanto far more satisfactory than in this proposal. The City Council also draw attention to the very inadequate provision which £30,000 constitutes towards dealing with the question of slums. It is no good saying that this is a local question. If it is only a local question it might be dealt with by local initiative—
I have had the letter to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman refers from different quarters, and I have replied fully.
No doubt the right hon. Gentleman whose courtesy is so well known in Scotland would reply. It has also been sent to me by a member for an adjacent burgh. Leith burgh is an independent burgh. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has seen a further letter which was circulated by the Scottish National Housing and Town Planning Committee, the chairman of which is Sir Henry Valentine whose name carries great authority in this connection. This memorandum accepts regretfully, as we all do, the decision arrived at by the Government especially in view of the slow progress which has been made, and the comparatively small number of houses which have been provided in Scotland. It says that while
this decision is lamentable if it only means slowing down the hostility to it would be greatly modified. That is a reasonable view to take, assuming that it does not mean that no preparations can be made now for the houses which we hope will be built at the termination of this period. It suggests that if this is only slowing down the erection of additional houses might be sanctioned as follows: ( a ) houses included in the scheme submitted to the Board of Health when the necessity for those houses has been shown; ( b ) that they can be provided at a reasonable cost having regard to all the circumstances. If it can be shown that houses can be provided at a reasonable cost surely the provision of such houses will come within the four corners of the Government's own decision; ( c ) that they can be carried out in reasonable time. This Association urges that some undertaking on these lines should be given. I pass the recommendation on to the right hon. Gentleman and I hope that when he speaks again, as no doubt he will later in the Debate, he can give some approximately definite assurance on those three matters.
I have not had an opportunity of considering the letter to which my hon. and gallant Friend has referred, but I shall take an early opportunity of reading it and of giving to the suggestions made the consideration which any suggestion coming from that quarter certainly deserves.
I am very much obliged to my right hon. Friend.
Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £1,875,899, be granted for the said Service."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 58; Noes, 173.
Division No. 297.] AYES. [7.52 p. m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Kiley, James Daniel Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemswortn) Mills, John Edmund Bromfield, William Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Morgan, Major D. Watts Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hartshorn, Vernon Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness and Ross) Calrns, John Hayward, Evan Myers, Thomas Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes) O'Grady, James Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Hogge, James Myles Raffan, Peter Wilson Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) Irving, Dan Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Entwistle, Major C. F. John, William (Rhondda, West) Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Finney, Samuel Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Sexton, James Galbraith, Samuel Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Spoor, B. G. Glanville, Harold James Kenyon, Barnet Swan, J. E. Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Wilkie, Alexander Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Waterson, A. E. Wilson, James (Dudley) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Mr. Robertson and Mr. Rose.
NOES. Armstrong, Henry Bruce Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Nield, Sir Herbert Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Gilbert, James Daniel Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Baird, Sir John Lawrence Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Oman, Sir Charles William C. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Glyn, Major Ralph Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Balfour, George (Hampstead) Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Parker, James Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Barnett, Major Richard W. Gregory, Holman Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Barnston, Major Harry Greig, Colonel Sir James William Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Barrand, A. R. Gritten, W. G. Howard Pratt, John William Beckett, Hon. Gervase Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E. Purchase, H. G. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Raeburn, Sir William H. Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Randles, Sir John Scurrah Blades, Sir George Rowland Henderson Major V. L. (Tradeston) Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N. Blair, Sir Reginald Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Reid, D. D. Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Remer, J. R. Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Breese, Major Charles E. Hills, Major John Waller Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Broad, Thomas Tucker Hinds, John Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford) Brown, Major D. C. Hood, Joseph Rodger, A. K. Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'cknVnn, W.) Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill) Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Hopkins, John W. W. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Seager, Sir William Carr, W. Theodore Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G. Seddon, J. A. Casey, T. W. Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W). Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Churchman, Sir Arthur Jameson, John Gordon Smith, Sir Malcolm (Orkney) Coats, Sir Stuart Jephcott, A. R. Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Cobb, Sir Cyril Jesson, C. Stanier, Captain Sir Beville Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Jodrell, Neville Paul Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Johnson, Sir Stanley Stanton, Charles Butt Conway, Sir W. Martin Johnstone, Joseph Starkey, Captain John Ralph Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.) Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Stewart, Gershom Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Strauss, Edward Anthony Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) King, Captain Henry Douglas Sturrock, J. Leng Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Larmor, Sir Joseph Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Dawes, James Arthur Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Doyle, N. Grattan Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Sutherland, Sir William Edgar, Clifford B. Lloyd, George Butler Taylor, J. Edge, Captain William Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Thorpe, Captain John Henry Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath) Lorden, John William Townley, Maximilian G. Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith) Wallace, J. Evans, Ernest M'Connell, Thomas Edward Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley) Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Falcon, Captain Michael Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T, J. White, Col. G- D. (Southport) Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Whitla, Sir William Fell, Sir Arthur Macquisten, F. A. Williams, C. (Tavistock) Fildes, Henry Maddocks, Henry Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.) Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Mitchell, Sir William Lane Wise, Frederick Flannery, Sir James Fortescue Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Worsfold, T. Cato Ford, Patrick Johnston Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Young, E. H. (Norwich) Foreman, Sir Henry Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Forrest, Walter Morrison, Hugh Younger, Sir George Foxeroft, Captain Charles Talbot Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Fraser, Major Sir Keith Murray, William (Dumfries) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Gange, E. Stanley Neal, Arthur Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. Gardiner, James Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Dudley Ward.
I believe that I have inadvertently voted in both lobbies. I desire to record my vote in the "No" Lobby. I do not know whether the matter can be rectified or not.
I am afraid that I am unable to help the hon. Member in this matter. He has made his statement, and in that way has given notice to the world of what his intention was.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Class II
Board of Agriculture, Scotland
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £222,064, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland, including Grants for Agricultural Education and Training, certain Grants in Aid, and certain Special Services arising out of the War."— [ Note. —£230,000 has been voted on account. ]
8.0 P.M
This Vote raises acutely the question of the present constitution and personnel of the Board of Agriculture of Scotland. The Board is now constituted of a very large number of persons, and the time has come to draw serious attention, not only to the great cost of the Department, increasing, as it appears to be doing, by leaps and bounds, but also to the manner in which certain parts of their duties have been performed. The Vote to which I wish to draw special attention is that for land settlement. After all, it is the most important thing which we can discuss to-night, and a good deal hangs upon it. The settlement of the smallholder on the land in Scotland is a most expensive process. The system is wholly different from that in England, and the cost of settlement, both in the crofting and the non-crofting districts, is very great compared with the cost of settling men on the land in England. That arises from a variety of circumstances. In England very often the smallholder is quite satisfied with bare land without any equipment. The equipment he manages to provide for himself. In Scotland the equipment is usually demanded; it costs a great deal of money and a grant has generally to be made to help the smallholder.
I have no idea what the relative costs are, but I have the Report of the Board of Agriculture on this question. It is a very insufficient and unsatisfactory document. We are told how many people have been settled on the land in the year, the number of applications, and so on. We are told that ex-service men have been dealt with, and so forth, but we get no information whatever as to the financial position and as to the cost of settling these people on the land, or as to the manner in which the money provided under the Land Settlement Act has been drawn and expended; and beyond the information that estates have been bought, we know nothing about the price paid or the manner in which the money has been expended. I am talking only from hearsay, of course, because there are no figures available, but it seems that a large part of the £2,500,000 provided under the Land Settlement Act for the purpose of settling ex-service men, has been spent in the purchase of estates. No attempt appears to have been made to feu any of the land. I should have thought that was possible, the annual charge guaranteed by the Government and leaving a large sum of money free for the equipment of the holding. So much of the money seems to have been expended on the purchase of estates and farms required that there can be very little left for the purpose of equipment. I do not think that is a wise policy. With things as they are and as they have been during the last few years, I should have thought that the more prudent way would have been to have acquired single farms coming out of lease. That would have been better than acquiring great estates, particularly as the Board does not appear to have acquired estates after having thought out a plan. The process of thinking out a plan appears to have been undertaken after the estate was bought.
We read that in the case of the MacLeod estate a survey was to be taken and it was expected that a certain number of holders would be placed upon the land. I have no doubt that it is perfectly suitable land for the purpose, but it appears to me that it would have been a wise and prudent thing to have had some sort of plan for the settlement of that property before it was acquired. I hope that in the next report we shall be told what the actual cost of all this operation has been —how much it has cost to settle the smallholders both in the crofting and non-crofting counties, what is the number of these holders per £1,000,000, compared with the number in England for a similar expenditure. We should also know what are the anticipated annual losses to be borne by the country in connection with this settlement. It must be a very large loss annually. The whole thing seems to have been carried out in a very haphazard way. One has any number of things sent to one, and in them there does not appear to be much in the way of success. There has been for a long time growing dissatisfaction in Scotland on the subject. One hears about it everywhere.
Last year, when discussing this question, the right hon. Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) said that he thought the Board of Agriculture ought to develop a new spirit. I said in answer to that statement that if my right hon. Friend meant by a new spirit that the Board ought to be composed of new blood I agreed with him. That is what I am asking now. I ask that there should be new blood introduced into the Board, and a reconsideration of its methods and general policy. It is not easy to get facts about these things. Perhaps there is a little bias in the information sent to one, in cases in which people are specially interested, and I do not want to make out too serious a case in regard to some of the particulars which have been sent to me. But undoubtedly we do know that we have now got an enormous staff at the Board. We know that, notwithstanding that staff, there is tremendous delay in dealing with correspondence. There is a great deal too much centralisation. Local officials are paralysed in consequence. Everything has to be approved at the central office in the most red-tape way. The smallest operation requires the attention of an architect or a surveyor, who with motor cars spend their time touring round the country looking after small repairs and outlays of that kind, for which an ordinary estate would call in the local carpenter without employing any architect.
There is a thorough lack of business method in carrying out negotiations. We expressly passed the Act of 1919 for speeding up the process of land settlement. I believe there has been no speeding up, or very little. It takes months to carry out a scheme. My right hon. Friend knows that. You have reports from this and that and files here and there. There are files for every mortal thing. They go on wasting time until people get so sick of it that those requiring the land go and occupy it forcibly, and proceedings are being taken against them all over the country. A good deal may be said about the number of surveyors who are employed, but I do not propose to go into that. I think one is entitled to say that simple decisions might be arrived at in localities and dealt with there without delay being caused by the demand of a central body to review everything and to deal with it themselves directly, by acquiescence or otherwise. It is very questionable whether great judgment has been shown in selecting the areas for settlement. For example, 41 notices of intention to prepare a scheme were issued. No fewer than 25 were withdrawn. In other cases no action at all was taken, and in only nine cases out of the 41 have schemes been completed. That is rather a serious matter, because the moment notice is given of a scheme great difficulties arise both for the owner and the tenant. There ought to be greater care taken in not disturbing people and worrying them and causing expense to them unless there is a reasonable hope of concluding a scheme. People very often get tired of waiting, and we then have the unfortunate forcible seizures. Another thing about the Board is this: They have taken over some very large farms on which there were very large stocks of sheep. How is it possible for any smallholder to make any money out of sheep stocks bought at the high price of £10 per ewe and lamb? We know that sheep were, very valuable during the War, but why take over a farm like Eriboll, with 3,000 or more sheep on it?
They did not know the price when they took it over.
But I suppose they knew the sheep were there, and everybody knew what the price of sheep was at the time. Surely, in the circumstances, that was not a farm to acquire. The Board should have waited. That is one of the things I complain of in their management. I understand that sheep stocks taken over have been valued at £105,000, and that they have been transferred to smallholders. I do not think they could be transferred to holders at anything like £10 per ewe and lamb. It would be interesting to know what loss has been created by the transfer of these sheep, and to what extent the fund has been punished in consequence. The farm I have mentioned was fully stocked. It has an area of 33,000 acres, and had been in the occupation of a certain family for generations. There were only 140 acres of arable land on the whole farm. One is entitled to ask how far the real purpose of land settlement is achieved by such a purchase. There are many cases of the same kind. In the Base of the Glendale farm there has been a good deal of trouble. I have here a cutting from the "Scottish Farmer" dealing with the MacLeod estate, from which it would appear that negotiations began for the purchase of this particular estate, 60,000 acres of land all together. Difficulties arose with regard to a particular farm, and that matter has been left unsettled. In order to facilitate a settlement the tenant has offered to go out without any compensation at all. He is so worried, annoyed, and bothered by settlers have squatted on his land that he has offered to get rid of it if the Board will take it over. He has got no satisfaction at all.
In that connection I should like to say that my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland last year in dealing with this matter gave us a very proper, accurate and interesting account of the position which he occupied towards trespassing settlers at that time. He pointed out it was not his duty to intervene in that at all, that it was the duty of the proprietor, and that having got an interdict it then devolved on him to have it served by special messenger and acted upon. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend has been able to inquire into a recent case where a proprietor did take this step, did get an interdict and was proceeding to have these people evicted, but the Sheriff-substitute when he arrived on the spot said he would not evict these men, nor take any steps whatever to enforce it unless the proprietor undertook, if the man was sent to prison, to bear the whole expenses and costs. If it be the case that a proprietor is to be told that it is his duty to spend whatever is required to enforce the decree of the Court, it is the sort of advice which should not be given to anyone. I do not know whether it was acted on or not. Certainly in the case of the Lews estate, I understand from Major Mathieson's agent that there was no question of that kind at all, that the interdict of the Court was enforced and the King's writ was made to run. Apparently now there is some new interpretation of the law. That appears to be the case at all events in the Balranald case where the Board has taken over a part of the land leaving a good deal in the hands of the proprietor.
That brings me to this, that in the whole North of Scotland you cannot get a messenger-at-arms. There are only a very few left, and none at all in the North of Scotland. There is also a great lack of sheriff's officers, and writs must be delivered by a messenger-at-arms or a Sheriff-officer. Neither one nor the other is available. I think my hon. Friend might turn his attention to that subject and see whether it is not possible to induce a few more people to enter into that profession, which, however it may be regarded, at all events is a useful one. I do not wish to trouble the Committee with the particulars of a good many of the cases I have here. We have heard a good deal about the Glen-dale property, and the Isle of Lewis, where there have been very great troubles and forcible seizures, and altogether a great deal of worry and annoyance has been caused. There the same question to which I have alluded has arisen, and in one case I think more than two years have elapsed since the agreement to take over the Glendale property was made, but little or no progress has been made with the settlement. Two raiders were fined by the authorities, but were allowed by the Board to retain possession of the land. These men, at all events, should not be allowed to remain on the holdings which they had raided, but should be transferred to some other holdings. Otherwise there will be an inducement to everybody who wants a particular holding to take the same steps and probably with the same success.
They can shake hands with De Valera.
In all the holdings that has been done, and the local opinion is that no tenant should be even willing to reside on those holdings, some of which are only connected by a footpath several miles in length with the nearest public road. The general effect of the whole thing, in my opinion, is that there has been a lack of wisdom on the part of the Board in selecting land for the purpose of settlement, and that there has not been success in settling on the land anything like the number of ex-soldiers we all desire to see settled there. They have not in all cases selected those men who risked their lives abroad, and one thing brought to my mind by the information given to me is that in many cases they are not ex-service men at all. The gravamen of my complaint againt the Board is that it is so un-businesslike in its methods. It has not sought to look ahead, but simply buys the land and takes it over, and that is shown in the manner in which it spends huge sums of money on estates instead of making bargains which would allow a better chance of doing what the House desired to do when it passed the Act. It is obvious to everyone that the Board, as at present constituted, is not doing its work satisfactorily. This is not a party question at all. We were all very anxious when the 1919 Act was passed to give it every possible chance for the settlement of a great many people on the land. Parliament adopted that policy, and we accepted it, and it was the duty of everyone to see that it was carried out in the best and most economical way possible. I do not think that has been done, and the consensus of opinion will be with me on that. I think therefore we do want, and badly want, the new blood which was spoken of last year in this Debate. I have had the privilege of discussing this matter with the Secretary for Scotland, and I do not expect he will agree with me in all I have said, but it is agreed that the time has come for reconstruction. I had intended to ask for a Committee of Inquiry into the whole matter to see exactly how we stand. I do not propose to do that now, because I know the Secretary for Scotland is very anxious to see that we should have some change in the administration of these Acts, and some change in the constitution of the Board of Agriculture. I have no doubt whatever that if he makes up his mind to do that, he will do it thoroughly and well, and I have perfect confidence in him. I think we want better administration by the Board, and we want somebody on it who understands the question of land settlement. The Board is swollen in size and is a most expensive Department. I believe half the present number of officials would be quite sufficient for the work it has to do, and I think the whole thing wants to be reconsidered and reconstituted. As I have every confidence, however, that my right hon. Friend intends to tackle it, I do not propose to move any reduction in the Vote.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger) has dealt, in the course of his speech, with two entirely separate topics, the one the personnel of the Board of Agriculture, and the other the work of the Board of Agriculture, and in particular the matter of land settlement. In my judgment, this is a convenient time for a reconstitution of the Board of Agricul- ture. I have long foreseen that the moment was bound to arrive, and I think the time now has come, for the following reasons. The position is simply this. The Chairman of the Board falls to retire in ordinary course in February of next year, but he has informed me that for personal and family reasons it would be more convenient for him that he should retire on the 31st of August of this year rather than in February of next year. Accordingly, that post becomes vacant. Mr. Sutherland's post—he is now with the Forestry Commission— is still vacant, and I think it ought to be filled. Sir Arthur Rose, who lent his services to the Board for the purpose of fulfilling the duties of Director of Land Settlement—I am quite sure my hon. Friend the Member for the Ayr Burghs does not desire in any way to reflect on his work—
If I may be allowed to interrupt, I think it is very patriotic of Sir Arthur Rose to have taken it on, and I have not a word to say against him.
I am very glad to hear my hon. Friend say that. Sir Arthur Rose, naturally enough, desires to return to his business proper at the earliest possible moment. I think probably it would be convenient that the new member of the Board in place of Mr. Sutherland should take over the duty of supervising land settlement. I say that to the Committee without binding myself in any way to take that course. If that be so, I think it is obvious that the sooner that gentleman is appointed to the office and gets into touch with the Board while Sir Arthur Rose is still there, so as to have the advantage of his presence and experience before taking over on his own account, the better, and that points again to the necessity of moving in this matter without avoidable delay. Accordingly, I propose, without avoidable delay, the time being ripe, to appoint two new members of the Board. It would be improper for me to say more than that with regard to the personnel, because, as to who the appointed members should be, is a matter that must be decided upon my responsibility and for which I am answerable to the House of Commons. That is the position so far as the personnel of the Board is concerned.
So far as the work of the Board is concerned, I propose to say, in answer to my hon. Friend who spoke last, that I regret that he permitted himself to go so far as he did in attacking the Board for its mismanagement, as I think he described it, of land settlement, at the same time acquitting the Director of Land Settlement from any complicity or responsibility in the matter. If my hon. Friend has got any attack to make on the administration of the Board of Agriculture, let him make it against myself. I am responsible for the Board of Agriculture to this House. The Board of Agriculture cannot defend itself. I am here, responsible for its policy, and responsible for its administration, and if there has been mismanagement or lack of foresight, I am the person whom my hon. Friend ought to attack, and not the Board of Agriculture.
No, no!
Their task is an exceedingly difficult one, and it has been undertaken and carried on at an exceedingly difficult time. My hon. Friend has admitted that it is much more difficult in Scotland than in England. The cost of land settlement is infinitely greater in Scotland, where we know that what is provided is really a miniature farm in most cases, whereas in England the settler is content with what we should describe in Scotland as a mere allotment. I really cannot understand what my hon. Friend means when he complains about the cost of administration. If he will be good enough to turn to page 4 of the Appendix, of the Report he will find particulars which will give him the information for which he asks.
I did not say cost of administration, but cost of settling.
My hon. Friend complained also of the lack of information as to expenditure generally. I think he will find, if he surveys the report with more particularity, a great deal of information there which he has not discovered up till now, and to which my attention has just been drawn in answer to his speech. His speech consisted of two kinds of criticism, the one general and vague and the other particular. With regard to the general and vague criticism, he will not expect me to deal with it, but all I can say is, that he has been very courteous in supplying me with some information as to the cases which he proposed to raise. I will undertake, if he will send me particulars of the vague and general charges, that I will make it my personal business to investigate them. So far as the particular cases are concerned, I shall read his speech to-morrow morning and have those cases investigated, and send him a reasoned reply. He referred to Mr. Cameron, of Gesto. Mr. Cameron, of Gesto, is a familiar figure to the Board of Agriculture. He suggested that we should purchase the farm, and negotiations were entered into-and were far advanced, but they were stopped by him, and he offered to relinquish his farm without compensation, but including the stock at a valuation. The Board were not ready to go on, and did not see why they should buy Mr. Cameron's sheep at the top of the market, and that is the simple reason why that particular transaction fell through. With regard to sheep stocks, all I can say is that the Board has to accept the valuation of arbiters. Any loss must be borne by the Board. The difficulty is that the applicants always desire land which is near their homes, and either they must take over the sheep stock or the sheep must be sold.
The point I made was this. Is it a wise policy to take over land with the sheep when there is this falling market? Where is the advantage to be gained by it?
I think the answer to that is, as was put from the other side, that you really do not know when you take over the land what you have to pay for the sheep until the valuation is made. According to my information, the utmost discretion is used in dealing with these cases, which are of the most difficult character. Then my hon. Friend asked about the expenditure on the purchase of land. The amount is approximately about £400,000 up to date. My hon. Friend also asked about commitments on our schemes in hand. Those under consideration up to date amount to £2,300,000, and, as regards the total number of holders settled up to date, it is 2,237, including 875 enlargements, and, of the above, 714 are genuine ex-service men. The year 1920, in my humble judgment, in spite of what the hon. Gentleman has said—and it was the period dealt with in the Report under review—marks a very important development in the history of land settlement in Scotland. We had the Small Holding (Colonies) Acts of 1916 and 1918. They were passed to enable the Board of Agriculture for Scotland to make provision for the settlement of ex-service men, and, so far as they went, they achieved a great deal, but they did not go far enough. Their scope was very limited. They extended the Board's powers by authorising the Board to buy land that was mainly arable in its character, but that left untouched the great problem of the pastoral Highland area, from which the bulk of the ex-service men's applications come. It is quite true that for these portions of the Highland area we have the Congested Districts Act, but we have to remember that all the settlements until the end of 1919 which were projected by the Board had to be financed out of the Agriculture (Scotland) Fund, a fund which had, and has, many other calls upon it, and which proved quite inadequate to meet the demands for the settlement of ex-service men. Accordingly, it became quite obvious that if we were to give effect to the declared intention of the Government with regard to the settlement of ex-service men, some other means must be found to bring it about, and to finance the Board in the matter of land settlement. That was particularly so, in view of the increased and growing demand for small holdings which existed, and also in view of the fact that the Board had to provide equipment for all these small holdings at a cost which was twice, three times, or quadruple what it was in the days when the Agriculture (Scotland) Fund was instituted. A way was found by passing the Land) Settlement (Scotland) Act, 1919. That Act, I venture to say without hesitation, has done more to solve the problem of land settlement in Scotland than any Measure which has hitherto been placed upon the Statute Book.
The provisions of the Act are known to Members of this House, and are referred to in the Report under review. I need not comment upon them further than to say that, besides enormously increasing the scope of the Board's operations, and therefore requiring an increased staff; by providing them with additional funds and investing them with additional power for the acquisition of land, they go a long way to remove the blemishes upon procedure which were imposed by the Small Landholders Act of 1911. When you have new legislation of an important character, you must always precede its application by considerable discussion and decision with regard to policy and procedure, and this Act was no exception to that rule. Nor do I think it would have been sound to have made it an exception. The difficulties of the general financial situation led to a quite novel method of financing small holdings under this Act of 1919. Under the Act, the money is lent to the Board by the Public Works Loans Commissioners, out of sums which are issued by the Treasury, on such terms and conditions as they think fit. It can be realised that at a time when every public service is affected by the need for rigid economy, the adjustment with the Treasury of the conditions under which the advances could be made was necessarily attended by difficulty and some measure of delay. I do not see how it could be avoided, even if the Board had consisted of heaven-born geniuses.
Another preliminary matter which was very important, and which had to be disposed of before progress could be made under the programme of the new Act, was the question of staff. I really do not know where my hon. Friend got his information, unless it was from the same source as my hon. and learned Friend opposite with whom I dealt at Question time the other day, I hope, quite fairly and faithfully. But really this view of the staff of the Board of Agriculture tumbling over one another as they look for something to do is really absurd.
What I said was that they do not do what they are asked to do.
I am responsible for the staff. This was done at my instance, and on my instructions. If I am not responsible in these circumstances, I would like to know who is. The question of staff had to be considered when this Act was passed, and, early in 1920, I appointed Sir Arthur Rose as Director of Land Settlement in Scotland. I also strengthened his outdoor staff of Sub-Commissioners by the addition of 12 officers, with a proportionate increase in the surveyors' staff. In my judgment. which I formed then—and I adhere to that judgment to-day—that was an essential addition to the staff of the Board. The selection of these officers, and their initiation into their new duties, took some little time. I only refer to these matters because there is in many quarters, not unnaturally, among those who really do not understand the inner workings of the Board of Agriculture, and the difficulties, as my hon. Friend no doubt does—there is constant criticism of the Board and impatience with the Board, because they have not proceeded with more expedition in settling men upon the land. I can only repeat what I stated a year ago. Having examined the matter with great care, I am convinced that the expedition used could not have been greater in the circumstances than it was. Some of the Board's critics seem to think you can hand smallholdings over a counter like a parcel of groceries. There could be no greater fallacy, because every small holding that is formed has to be preceded by mature and anxious consideration, both in the interest of the taxpayer and the smallholder concerned. I had frankly hoped that more men would have been settled in 1920, but, after full personal inquiry into the position, I am satisfied that the maximum results obtainable in the circumstances have been secured, and that the Board and the Director of Land Settlement have proceeded on sound lines in clearing the ground, and endeavouring to lay a sure foundation for their future operations under the Act, rather than in aiming at the larger and earlier return that might have been available if they had proceeded with imperfectly considered projects. The fruits of the policy adopted will become apparent when I tell the Committee that during the past six months more men have been settled on the land in Scotland than were settled in the course of any previous period of 12 months during the existence of the Board of Agriculture.
The returns for 1920 and for the six months of this year would have been appreciably greater but for one circumstance, and that is that many of the applicants to whom holdings were offered were not able to take entry chiefly because of the terms which were offered to them in respect to the transfer of the sheep stocks to which my hon. Friend has alluded. But the regulations govern- ing the transfer of sheep stock, the Committee will recognise, were fixed by the Treasury, and the Board, even if they had desired it, could not concede many of the demands which were made in this particular by the smallholders, who hesitated to enter upon the transaction. The Board consider—and I agree—that the terms on which the transfer is made are quite generous terms. They are these: the Board transfer such proportion of the sheep as is required to stock the ground—after allowing for the introduction of cattle—at the current market prices, whatever these may be. They advance loans to the holders up to 75 per cent, of the value of the stock. These loans, with interest at 5 per cent, per annum, are repayable upon the amount of the loan which may be outstanding at any particular time by ten equal annual instalments.
Have not cases been mentioned where in respect to the other 25 per cent, aid has been given?
Perfectly true, but I think the hon. Member, on reflection, will agree that, having regard to the financial stringency to-day and the rate of interest that prevail, the terms I have just stated are generous terms. I think if smallholders will not accept these terms, and take the holdings which are ready for them, well, then, do not impute blame to the Board. In particular, regard should be had to the fact that the Treasury, and not the Board, fix the terms. I feel certain that now the general and fundamental questions of principle and administration arising out of the Act of 1919 have been settled, settlement within the limits of the funds available will proceed with much greater speed during the next year or two. But it is difficult, if not impossible, to guarantee that any certain number of men will be settled in any particular space of time. The funds which are being provided by the new Act are, as I have indicated, a substantial advance on anything we have hitherto known in Scotland. Hon. Members will notice that on page 19 of the Board's Report there is a reference to the appointment of a Cabinet Committee, which was set up and reported on the whole question of land settlement in Great Britain.
In connection with that inquiry, which was a very exact one, and very thorough, the Board undertook a very close scrutiny of the estimates of cost of all the schemes which they had in their hand, and to which they were committed, and they found that these scheme would practically absorb the whole of the funds available. I am talking now of the time before the Cabinet Committee's Report. Pending the Report of the Committee the Board decided to defer the projection of any further schemes, about which the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Major Mackenzie Wood) put many questions to me about that time. The Report became public property, and the situation was disclosed. Since the end of the year the recommendations of that Cabinet Committee have been made known. The Committee recognised that the problems of land settlement in Scotland were quite distinct from those in England—that it was an essential problem from the point of view of the ex-service man. The Board undertook, in virtue of the recommendations of that Committee, to revise their estimates, and to adopt as far as possible more drastic rules which the Committee recommended in order that economies might be effected in regard to land settlement. That, of course, has not been a popular movement. Great dissatisfaction has already been expressed by some of the prospective holders with regard to the accommodation which is now offered, and the new conditions, because these conditions involve considerably more limited building accommodation than that hitherto provided. As the Committee will see the choice is this: expenditure has to be restricted, and when the question is whether you are going to provide a limited number of men with excellently-equipped holdings, or more men with holdings which are not so well equipped and buildings not so complete, but which are, in all cases, livable in, then I myself have no doubt at all what the answer to that question would be.
Has the report of that Cabinet Committee been published?
I think not. But the recommendations which affected Scotland were, I think, announced by me in this House in answer to questions—I am speaking from recollection—but, at any rate, I made them public either in the House or outside. I would remind the House that under that Committee's Report we get £750,000 new money allocated to Scotland, and a Bill which is to give effect to that is about to be introduced into this House. I have the greatest confidence, especially after some news which has come to me to-day, that it will be so completely non-controversial that it will be passed before the Session ends. Coming to what has been actually done during the year under review I just want to give the Committee one or two figures regarding the. Board's activity in 1920. The Board acquired in 1920 122,000 acres of new property, making the total area which is now administered by them— excluding 84,000 acres which they took over from the Congested Districts Board —approximately 239,000 acres. That includes 180,000 acres of hill land, the settlement of a large part of which is retarded at the moment by the difficulty regarding the transfer of sheep stock to which I have already referred. Applicants numbering 317 were settled during the year on 8,100 acres, mainly arable, on the Board's own properties, and on 11,700 acres, mainly pasture, under Part II of the Act.
Since the end of 1920—and these are my last words—the Board have acquired five additional estates, of a total area of 56,600 acres, and—again excluding the 84,000 acres to which I have referred — this brings the total area in the hands of the Board to a figure of 295,000 acres. The Board have settled since the end of 1920—I am now travelling beyond the date at which the Report closes—since 31st December, 495 additional holders on 22,200 acres of their own estates and 38,400 acres, under Part II. The Board hope—and I think reasonably hope—to settle an additional 454 applicants, including the sheep stock schemes mentioned previously, before the end of the current year, and it is even possible the number may be greater still. If that hope be realised, as I think it will be, the number of holders settled during 1921 will probably be more than double the number in any previous year of the Board's work.
Are they smallholders or large holders.
Smallholders. If that hope is realised, looking to the extraordinary difficulties the Board have been faced with in the matter of materials and everything connected with the equipment of the farms, and to difficulties with regard to sheep stock, I venture to say that it is a year's work of which no Board need be ashamed, and certainly not the Board of Agriculture with which we are dealing. While I am always ready and willing to investigate any complaints brought with regard to our policy or failure to answer letters or anything of that kind, I put it to the Committee that the work which has been carried out is good work, and I am glad that my hon. and gallant Friend behind me (Sir George Younger) after consideration of the matter, and after conference with myself, has seen his way not to move the Motion for reduction which he originally put down.
I am sure that all Scottish Members interested in the development of the national cause of settlement on the land will welcome the announcement which has just been made of the prospect, if the Bill passes before the Session closes, of getting an additional £750,000 towards that object. Those with whom I am associated will throw no obstacle in the way, but we shall do our best to secure the swift passage of that Measure through the House. The Secretary for Scotland, with his usual loyalty, has asked that every criticism of every Department and of every shade of administration of the Scottish Board of every kind should be directed to him, and he says that he alone is responsible and that we should blame nobody but him. I am afraid that is asking too much. We know the right hon. Gentleman is busy, not only with Scottish matters, but he is put on all sorts of English and British committees which have nothing to do with the administra of Scottish affairs, and therefore it is quite impossible for us to accept the position which he takes up. We know it is beyond human capacity for him to deal with all these things and therefore we must attack, I hope in a fair spirit, the Departments which require criticism or praise as the case may be.
9.0 P.M.
I am sorry to say that as far as I am concerned I have come to the conclusion that the Board of Agriculture is very expensively administered. Let hon. Members look at the figures as they appear on the Estimates. Take only Item A (salaries, wages, and allowances) for the coming year and it will be found that they absorb no less than £146,804, and Item B—travelling expenses—is £22,000. In both those instances there is an increase of £10,470. Travelling alone shows an increase of £5,300 and the total expenses of the whole Department, including direct payments, come to a sum of £505,290, or well over £500,000. I want to know if the country is getting value for this money, because that is the real point? With every kind of sympathy which I can express for the objects of the Board, and admiration for the individual members of the Board, I have come calmly and dispassionately to the conclusion that this Board can be run efficiently for a considerably less sum of money. I hope that in the reconstruction which my right hon. Friend has announced that that view will be borne in mind. That is not only my view, but I am certain it is a view which is very widely held throughout Scotland. I believe that much better value can be obtained for the money, or rather that far less money should be spent on the administration of this office, and even then I believe we should get better results. I do not want to discourage anybody, but that is the view which I have formed as a business man of the operations of this most important branch of Scottish administration. I am very glad to hear that there has been an improvement in the number of men who have been settled on the land this year, but I wish to draw attention to a fact which appears in the Report. It shows that there is still a clear demand for new holdings and enlarged holdings. It shows that the applications for new holdings number 2,237, while the applications for enlargements number 573, and it goes on to point out a very interesting fact which I wish to bring to the notice of the Committee. It says: portance that Members of Parliament should do all in their power to assist the Executive to allay with the greatest possible promptitude. A great deal has been said about the promises which have been made. I am not going to say a word on that subject, and I am going to deal with the position as it is, because it is sufficiently serious. My hon. Friend who opened this Debate put forward a very serious social effect. He pointed out that there has been very considerable delay in this matter, and what do the hopeful aspirants do? Being disappointed in regard to their desires, they march on, and settle themselves on the land. That in itself is a serious reflection. I know these men, and I know what sort they are. They are not people with no sense of citizenship at all, but they are men who only take action like that when driven to an extremity.
That kind of thing in law-abiding Scotland is a very disquieting symptom. While I should be very glad to share the optimism of the Secretary for Scotland as to the future, I have come to the conclusion that the speed of the operations of the Board falls far below the most reasonable national demand. There must be a real change in the administration of the whole of this matter by the Board of Agriculture in Scotland. I join very sincerely in the hope that the reconstruction about to take place will have good results and that every official who is newly appointed—that, in fact, the whole staff from top to bottom—will realise that there is a demand inside and outside this House, as far as the country is concerned, for a new spirit, and far greater efficiency and more swiftness in dealing with this most urgent problem. I hope that for the new appointments that are to be made men will be selected who are not only known for their scientific or agricultural experience, but who are also known to be sympathetic with the administration of the Acts they are called upon to take under their charge. I am sure my right hon. Friend, on whom a very thankless task in this respect has been imposed, will bear that in mind. No one desires to be a partisan in this matter. The new officers ought to be men not only with knowledge but with a broad human sympathy in the administration of a Department of this kind. As a number of hon. Members wish to speak on this most urgent problem, I will not detain the Committee further.
I do not propose following the last speakers in the subjects they have pursued, but I desire to draw attention to one matter intimately bound up with the small-holding and ex-service men's movement in Scotland, and that is the provision of credit facilities. This is not a new subject. There has been, still is and ought to be an urgent demand in Scotland for the provision and development of credit facilities for smallholders. In every country in which the small holding movement has made any progress, the provision of credit facilities has gone hand in hand with that progress. In November last I asked the Secretary for Scotland a question regarding credit facilities for ex-service men and others on small holdings. I inquired whether the right hon. Gentleman would avail himself of the services of the Scottish Central Land Bank for the purpose of providing these credit facilities. The right hon. Gentleman in reply said: endeavours were made to obtain assistance from State resources, and the bank applied to the Development Commissioners. Negotiations took place and then this happened. In the Commissioners' Eighth Report, under the heading "Development of Agricultural Co-operative Credit," appeared these words: themselves to supply the other 25 per cent., and that is the case. I have here a case in Sutherlandshire, where the Secretary of the Credit Society formed under the Scottish Central Land Bank, and affiliated to the bank, has applied for a sum of some £2,000 which, is required by these smallholders to enable them to complete a scheme of the value of some £10,000 or £12,000. What is going to happen? The smallholders cannot provide all the money themselves. The Board of Agriculture offer this 75 per cent. If the Land Bank had the funds which the Development Commissioners have recommended they would be able, through the credit society, on the responsibility, not of individuals, but of the credit society itself, to lend this money to the smallholders, and the scheme would go forward.
What is the alternative? The right hon. Gentleman informed me last November—and I should like to know how the matter is going on—that the proposal is to build up district credit institutions by federating local co-operative credit and other co-operative societies. What is going to be the result of that? Has any progress been made in that respect? Is a new department being set up in the Board of Agriculture to deal with it? If that is so, it will very largely affect a question, to which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peebles, drew attention, namely, that of the administration by the Board of such a scheme, and the extra staff that it would probably require I venture to say that the policy which the right hon. Gentleman has in view is not the way in which to provide credit facilities for smallholders. The best way to provide those credit facilities is not through a Government Department, however efficient it may be, but to give inducements to the smallholders themselves to band together in credit co-operative societies to provide their own money for their own needs. That can only be done by giving some assistance to this Central Land Bank, which was established by private enterprise and built up from nothing at all by the courage and mutual assistance of the smallholders themselves. In that way only do I see any hope for the future of the credit facility movement in Scotland. I hope that, in view of the changes which are to take place in the Board, the right hon. Gentleman will not abide rigidly by the views he has already expressed in this connection. It seems to me that the opportunity is now provided, by the reconstitution of the Board which is about to take place, to bring a large view to bear on this subject, to bring into it the private enterprise which has already built up in Scotland a thing that never previously existed, and in that way to give assistance, not only to the small holding movement as it at present exists, but to those ex-service men in Scotland who are crying out in their thousands to-day for land. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will really consider this matter from the larger and wider point of view.
The hon. Baronet the Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger) has treated us this evening to what we have come to regard as his annual attack upon the Board of Agriculture. He thinks that it is unbusinesslike, and that may be so, for aught that I know, but I am bound to say that he seemed to fail to make out the case which he started to make out. He asked the Secretary for Scotland to provide statistics showing the cost of setting up small holdings in Scotland and in England. Apparently, his suggestion was that those statistics would show that small holdings in England had cost a great deal more than in Scotland, and that, therefore, the Board of Agriculture in Scotland had done its work badly. But, as the Secretary for Scotland said, a small holding in Scotland is an entirely different thing from a small holding in England, and any such figures as the hon. Baronet asked for would not prove the point that he wanted to prove. It shows, I think, that the hon. Baronet has been slightly carried away in his efforts to prove that the Board of Agriculture is unbusinesslike.
I am glad that both he and the Secretary for Scotland devoted most of their time to the question of land settlement, because that, I think, is the most crying question in the agricultural world in Scotland at the present time. Like the hon. Baronet, I think that land settlement in Scotland at present is most unsatisfactory, and has been so since the War. I am glad that an improvement is going on, but I am bound to say that, as the matter stands at present, it is most unsatisfactory. At the end of 1920, which is the latest date for which I have figures, the applications for small holdings in Scotland amounted to 5,590. At the same time there had been settled on the land only 431. That seems to me to be very unsatisfactory. I agree that from what the Secretary for Scotland said we may hope that something like 1,000 will be settled this year, but even allowing for that, the matter is still in an unsatisfactory condition. Who is responsible for this? The Secretary for Scotland said to-day, and he has said it always, that we were pushing forward the question of land settlement without any avoidable delay, and he has often taken refuge from his critics by saying that you cannot hand over, as he said to-day, a small holding like something across a grocery counter. Everyone recognises that, but it is over a year since the Secretary for Scotland came down here and announced that he had appointed a new Director of Land Settlement, who, apparently, was going to deal with this question of delay and give us the holdings that we want. What was the first thing that was done under this new régime? The Secretary for Scotland said that a number of new appointments were made. He took special credit for making those appointments, and said that they were necessary. But, very soon after they were made, orders were given in the Board of Agriculture that no inspection of ground for new schemes was to be undertaken without the special and specific sanction of the Director of Land Settlement, and also that no new scheme which would entail occupation of land or settlement by holders was to be considered, and no work done or correspondence entered into in connection with those matters. It is obvious that you cannot settle men on the land cheaply if you are going to schedule certain farms and expropriate the tenants and pay them compensation. You must wait until the lease is run out, if you are not going to pay huge compensation. The first thing done under this new arrangement was to give notices cancelling the scheduling of many farms, and the result was that land settlement was held up and these new officials had nothing to do. I am not making any attack upon Sir A. Rose. I understand he is a man of the very highest ability, but if, when you hive a man of such transcendent ability, to tackle this question, and the result is practically the same as before, surely the case of the delay previosuly was not, as has been suggested, with the personnel, but was with the machinery. New men were put in and, therefore, the assumption was, undoubtedly, that the fault lay with the men previously dealing with this question.
Now that new men have been put in, the only conclusion we can come to is that the fault was with the machinery. The hon. Baronet (Sir G. Younger) talked a great deal about reports and red tape. I think there was bound to have been many reports, and much red tape, which would seem to the outsider to be unnecessary; but they were necessary, largely because of what has been done by the hon. Baronet himself. He was more responsible than any other for putting into the Land Settlement Act, 1919, a provision which compelled the Board of Agriculture to submit this scheme of land settlement first to the Scottish Office; and, of course, they had also to go to the Treasury. How can you really come forward and accuse the Board of Agriculture of delay when you deliberately saddle them with that obligation to submit all .their schemes to the Scottish Office; to argue the case with them, to prove everything, to give statistics, and show that everything they do they can make out a good case for. It is bound to cause delay, and I suggest that a great deal of delay in land settlement is due to the effect of the machinery set up deliberately by the friends of the hon. Baronet. That has caused delay which was inevitable. The hon. Baronet gave us to understand that he was in favour of the policy of land settlement. Sometimes I am inclined to think that, if he did not say it himself, we would not have known it, because his actions do not seem always to point that way. We cannot really charge the Board of Agriculture with delay, and with unbusinesslike methods in the matter of land settlement unless we give them free scope to work out their own policy and make them solely responsible. They have not been made solely responsible for land settlement, as you have divided the responsibility. You have them, then the Board, then the Scottish Office, and then the Treasury, and under these circumstances you are bound to have delay. The Secretary for Scotland told us he was going to reconstitute the Board, and I hope that when the Board is recon- stituted we shall not see in that re-constitution any signs of the influences which, in my opinion, have been hampering the Board of Agriculture. The Board of Agriculture was set up by the same Act which set up small holdings in Scotland. The Small Holdings Act of 1911 has always been associated with the policy of land settlement, and I am inclined to think that the same influences, which attacked the policy of land settlement in 1911, have continued to attack the Board of Agriculture, because it has always associated the two things. I hope, however, that we will have no signs of a continuance of that hostility in the personnel which are to be substituted for the members who are retiring soon. Like many others, I would like to speak on a number of things under this, but my regard for my colleagues prevents me from saying much more. I would, howevre, like to ask one or two questions on the subject of land settlement. First of all with regard to the building of houses on small holdings, and the relation of this to the question of the building subsidy. The Board of Health has been granting a subsidy to private builders who erect dwelling houses for themselves, and I should like to suggest to the Secretary for Scotland, and also to the Chairman of the Board of Health, who happens to be here, whether they do not think that the smallholder who erects a house on his small holding, even by means of a loan granted by the Board of Agriculture, has not a right to share in that subsidy just as much as if he had paid it out of his own pocket, because eventually he has to find his own money and the house is really built by him. I think he is entitled to the subsidy, and the total of all subsidies ought to be deducted from the sum which is paid for small holdings and debited to the Housing Grant for Scotland. The hon. Baronet expressed his regret that the Board of Agriculture did not use their powers for feuing land more than they had done, and had bought land outright. I think that was fair criticism. I think it is fair criticism to say that they have in their work during the last year or two not taken advantage of their powers under the Act of 1911 to the extent they ought to have done. If they had used the Act of 1911, more than Part I of the Act of 1919, their money would have gone much further, and they would have been able to settle more men on the land. I hope, however, that they are using the Act of 1911 more now, and that they will continue to do so in the future. Such a policy seems to me to be more necessary than ever it was before because the financial situation is becoming more stringent than it was before. I am glad the Secretary for Scotland did not allow the criticism which was advanced against the Board of Agriculture to go unanswered, because it is my firm conviction that there is a great deal of prejudice against the Board of Agriculture. A great deal of it has no substance in fact, and it would be a pity if the criticism, which is in many respects unfounded, should go without some objection from the Secretary for Scotland.
Land settlement seems to be the subject that is absorbing the attention of the Committee this evening. It is the easiest thing in the world to criticise the Board of Agriculture or any other body in reference to the acquisition of land for small holdings, but when one remembers that the acquisition of land for such purposes is in every case an uneconomic one, to ask the Board to do something that they are convinced is not an economic proposition must give them and those connected with this land settlement question much heart searching. Promises were made—some people say these promises were rash—that all ex-service men, if they so desire, should be settled on the land. I do not want to throw bricks at others, because I plead guilty to having made statements of that kind myself, and at the time I made them I was thoroughly convinced that it was a possibility. Many things have happened since then. It is always dangerous to prophesy, and only a fortnight ago in this House we were discussing, in connection with agriculture, the amount which would be necessary to subsidise farmers for the crop of 1920, and it was suggested then that the prices of the various kinds of grain would come to such a low level that £3 for wheat and £4 for oats would be inadequate, but we have had since that time such a drought that the whole country has been withered up, and not only this country, but other countries in the world, the result being that the probable prices of grain will be considerably higher than we ever thought possible. To purchase land at such a price and to equip it as such an enormous cost means that to the smallholder the rental must be almost beyond the possibility of his reach. When you think of a man being settled on 10 acres and saddled with a rental of £40 to £50 it seems to those who know agriculture best that the task that is assigned to the smallholder is greater than he is able to bear. But in any case I differ for once from my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Aberdeen (Major M. Wood) on one particular point. He said there was no evidence that the new appointments that had been made had worked any change, but if I understood the figures supplied by the Secretary for Scotland in reference to land settlement I think the position was that in 1920 there were some 317 settlements. In the first six months of 1921 there have been 495 settlements, and it is anticipated that during the next six months there will be an additional 454, making a total of 949. You cannot just turn land into small holdings at five, minutes' notice. There are certain negotiations to be proceeded with and inquiries to be made and arrangements in reference to stocks and other commodities, and therefore for the first time we are in the position that there are more smallholders being placed on the land in one year than small holdings going out of occupation.
We surely desire, if we are going to-have small holdings, that the smallholders should be put on the land in economic conditions and on such land that they will be able to make a livelihood. When we speak about smallholders and putting them on the land we generally limit our idea of small holdings and smallholders to ex-service men, but I am quite sure that if there is one thing essential to the success of a small holding more than another, it is not only that the ex-service man should be a man with some knowledge of agriculture, but that his wife should be thoroughly competent to do her bit of farming, and the successful smallholders are those who not only themselves do the work well, but who are helped in the business by their wives. I sometimes think that if the Board make any mistake in regard to the acquisition of small holdings it is by endeavouring through their own agents to procure the suitable land. In my judgment, local knowledge would be very helpful, and I am quite sure there are many competent agriculturists—there ought to be agricultural bodies to advise on the subject—who would be able to give very useful information to the Board about possible settlements. There are some estates, possibly not very large, but estates containing 6, 7 or 8 farms, which are practically entirely farmed by the landlord. In many of these cases the class of farming is not high-class farming, but the very opposite. I would with pleasure take any representative of the Board to a particular holding of that description, and if he was not satisfied that the land ought to be used in the national interest for other purposes than the present purpose I should be exceedingly surprised and disappointed. We must have the land of the country used to the best possible advantage, and merely to purchase land and become a landowner and then instead of cultivating the soil intensively and producing the greatest possible amount of crops, simply play with the land, leaving it unploughed and unsown—it is land like that which should be obtained for small holdings.
In regard to the 1919 Land Acquisition Act, which undoubtedly gave more power to the Board than any previous Act, I still suggest that the whole question of the owning and occupying and tilling of the soil in Scotland has not been dealt with in a manner that is in the national interest. People talk about scrapping the Agriculture Act, 1920, and all that that means to agriculture, but when we have a statement made in this House regarding one Scottish owner of land, explaining the decreased income that has accrued from that land, it seems to me that there is only one remedy, and that is that these great estates should be divided, and that instead of large tracts of land being owned by one large landowner we should have quite a number of much smaller estates and much smaller holdings brought into being.
If I were to find fault with the Board of Agriculture it would be not for what they have done but for what they have left undone, and possibly what they have left undone is because they had not the power to do it. In agricultural circles in Scotland at the present time there are very serious complaints about sheep dipping orders and cattle disease orders. The unfortunate thing is that the Board of Agriculture for Scotland has no power in these matters. When complaints are made an inspector is sent from Whitehall to the Highlands of Scotland to tell the Highland sheep farmers how they are to dip their sheep and when they are to dip them, and the complaint is that some of these inspectors do not know a sheep from a goat. I do not know whether or not that statement is correct, but the position causes great dissatisfaction. I heartily wish that work of that kind could be under the control of the Scottish Board of Agriculture, and not under the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries in England.
We all desire, and the Board desires, that there should be as many men as possible settled on the land, and that rural Scotland should be encouraged to possess a much larger population than in the past. There are large tracts of country where formerly thousands of men were settled and where now there are only one or two, where deer and sport exclude the legitimate cultivation of the land, and where large, farms that were formerly fertile and well cultivated and bearing large quantities of foodstuffs are deserted, because they happen to be near the moors from which the game comes. These farms have been deserted in order that sport may be cultivated, and you will find the buildings are in ruins and the whole place in such a condition that the hearts of agriculturists must grieve as they see it. We have no remedy, so far as I know, for altering this state of things, but, surely, legislation could be instituted for the purpose. If we are going to settle more people on the land, the Board of Agriculture should use every bit of its influence in regard to transport, telephones and all the things that make rural life possible under modern conditions. In my own constituency there is the question of the steamers on Loch Tay. The whole of the population round Loch Tay for many miles depend upon the transport of the steamers. Those steamers have ceased to run, so far as my information goes, and I appeal to the Secretary for Scotland, as the head of the Board of Agriculture in Scotland, to see that something is done to maintain transport in that particular area, and to provide for increased cultivation there rather than driving the people off the land.
Whatever may be said about the Board, and no doubt it has made mistakes, and will make mistakes again, taken on the whole it has administered its office as well as any other Department of State. I do not know how the 20 per cent, reduction in staff applies to the Board, but I assume that it will be the same as to every other State Department, and that one section will be understaffed and another section Overstaffed. A general condemnation will not do very much good, but I wish the Government would devise means whereby a capable inspector could visit all the Public Departments and deal with them by close inspection and possibly deal with them very drastically. Settlement of smallholders in the North of Scotland has been comparatively successful. About a year ago I was in the North of Scotland, walking along the sea shore in the north of Sutherlandshire, when I came across what I thought was the most suitable land for small holdings that I had ever seen. There was a stretch of beautiful, level arable land, with large hills immediately adjoining, for outruns, and I said to a friend that I thought it was an ideal spot for small holdings. I was glad to find later that that particular piece of land had been scheduled by the Board and was to be taken possession of for small holdings.
In the North of Scotland, although they complain about the number of settlements not being sufficient, on the whole they are very well satisfied with the settlements which have been made. In connection with all the affairs of State at the present time we have to consider the question of cost. The National Exchequer has to be considered very seriously. A suggestion I would make to the Secretary for Scotland is that it is not an economic proposition to bring small holdings into being at the present time, and I suggest, respectfully, that the Board should make a public declaration explaining the position to the applicants for small holdings, and giving them an opportunity for realising the position. They should explain to them that it is impossible for years to come to settle them all on the land, and that if they are settled they will be settled on uneconomic conditions. The best friendship they can show to some of these ex-service men is to explain that the promises made to them were made under a misapprehension, and that things have so changed that in their own best interests it would be better that many of them should not wait for small holdings.
I cannot expect to receive the hon. Member's assent when I say, having regard to the last few sentences of his speech, that probably no system of land reform could do more good to Scotland than a wise and well-considered scheme of settlement by small holdings. I should not have risen if I had not been a member of the Cabinet Committee to which the Secretary for Scotland has referred. I appreciate very much the references which the Secretary for Scotland made to the good work that was done by members of the Board of Agriculture in regard to land settlement. I want also to congratulate the Secretary for Scotland upon the first five minutes of his speech to-night, and upon the decision he has taken and announced. I know that that decision will give very great satisfaction in many quarters in Scotland, and that it comes very near to the joint opinion of the Committee to which he referred.
I shall not traverse ground which has been covered by other speakers, but I wish to refer to one or two points that I think should receive attention. First, I would like to congratulate the Secretary for Scotland on the admirable defence which he has made of the Board of Agriculture. Those of us who have had to do with criticism of the Board in Scotland find that the Board is blamed often for sins which it does not commit. There is an opinion that the Board is not so active as it ought to be, but the right hon. Gentleman, in his defence of the Board, I think, elucidated the position clearly, and gave those who heard him a knowledge which hitherto perhaps they did not possess in regard to the activities of the Board. The Board of Agriculture, so far as Scotland is concerned, particularly the North of Scotland, is looked on by the rural districts as being in a situation in which it ought to be of great benefit to the community. It has to deal with the poor part of the country as a rule, a part of the country that is sterile, not favoured with a salubrious climate, where the crops are not what they are in other places. Therefore the Board can be of great service to these districts in educating the people in business methods of dealing with their agriculture and their animals of various kinds and the best method of bringing their produce to market.
In various respects the Board of Agriculture has already done excellent work, and it is looked to in future to continue that good service. In addition to that, the Board of Agriculture has to deal with matters that affect the fisheries to some extent. For example, in the crofting areas it has to provide piers and boat-slips. In these respects, the Board might do even more than it has done in the past. The older fishermen and the boys have to earn their livelihood by a combination of what they can get from the crofts and small fisheries. If the two things are made to work satisfactorily, then perhaps a reasonable livelihood may be obtained, but if there is any deficiency either on one side or the other, then the life of the Board of Agriculture etain shrdlu etain crofter becomes much more severe than it otherwise would be. The function of the Board of Agriculture I take to be, if possible, to keep people on the land and bring back people to the land, if it can where previously they had left it. If it can improve the resources of agriculture crofting areas so as to attract to the land on these small holdings and. in these people who may have gone to the cities or may have gone abroad, then the Board of Agriculture does excellent work.
10.0 P.M.
It is regrettable, however, to see from the recent returns in connection with the Census that these areas in the North of Scotland have gone back seriously in population. No doubt the War has had a tendency in this direction. Apart from the War altogether there has been a serious set-back of population in these parts. The Board of Agriculture ought to co-operate with other bodies if it can in bringing people to the land, or at any rate in doing something to prevent people leaving the land, and anything which tends to decrease the population of these parts should be inquired into closely by the Board of Agriculture. Take, for example, my own constituency. During the War at Scapa Flow ships had to be sunk. If something is not done to remove these ships, a large part of the population who live by the fisheries and by their work on the land will have to leave these parts altogether. The Board of Agriculture should give attention to that matter.
Why?
Because the Admiralty say that they cannot see their way to remove these ships.
How does it affect these men?
Because these ships block the Channel. That is a matter to which the Board of Agriculture might turn its attention, it should endeavour to find out causes which are likely to prevent people remaining on the land, and if these are causes with which it can deal, then the sooner it directs its attention to them the better. Take another illustration from the northern part of my constituency. In the island county of Shetland on the west side there has been a considerable decrease in population owing to the fact that the fisheries have fallen off seriously because of a whale fishery there. These are matters which should be inquired into. If the fisheries vote were on at present I might have an opportunity of dealing with this matter to a greater extent, but I wish now merely to direct the attention of the Board of Agriculture to these causes which tend to drive the people away from the land. Whatever these causes may be it should be the duty of the Board to remove them if possible. After the discussion to-day I dare say that we shall have close attention by the Board of Agriculture to the various matters that have been referred to.
I thank the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland for what he is doing regarding the housing of crofters. The concession which he has outlined is a very valuable one, and while he is making that concession I would direct his attention to the position of the cotter in these parts. The cotter is as much entitled to considera as the crofter. If he is not raising food off the land he is there as a fisherman taking food out of the sea. The crofters' rates are assessed on the three-eighths of a penny to the pound. The cotter on the other hand who has no security of tenure, who has a little plot where he grows vegetables, is assessed at the full rate. That is an inequality to which I should like the right hon. Gentleman to direct attention. If this is remedied the position of these people in these remote parts will be much ameliorated. I trust that the attention of the right hon. Gentleman will be given to that point.
I wish to take the opportunity of calling the attention of the Secretary for Scotland to a very small matter. I refer to certain farms which were recently purchased by the Board of Agriculture for the purpose of forming a colony of small holdings on which new buildings are being put up. The Board of Agriculture claim that they are exempt from the ordinary regulations or laws under the Public Health Acts, and that it is not incumbent upon them to submit plans of these new buildings to the public health committee of the county council. I would suggest that the Board ought to waive any privilege which they have in such a matter as that, because it is not fair that those buildings should be put up without the same sanitary conveniences, etc., as other people alongside are obliged to provide. Over and above that surely it is desirable that the same local authority should have complete jurisdiction over matters of sanitation in the whole of its district. The two Departments, the Public Health Department and the Board of Agriculture, appear to be in conflict, and I submit that in such a case the Board of Agriculture ought to proceed hand in hand with the district committee of the county council in whose area these small holdings are situated.
I listened with interest but, I am not afraid to say, with a good deal of suspicion to the Secretary for Scotland's defence of the Board of Agriculture, because I have found that widespread dissatisfaction with the Board exists throughout Scotland and I have never found any agriculturist prepared to throw roses or bouquets at my right hon. Friend. The general view among farmers is that the Board is an extraordinary extravagantly managed Department and one which does not show a great deal of knowledge of the task it has in hand. I asked the Secretary for Scotland recently some questions about the administration and he gave the data for particular years. He said that this year it was doing a great deal more than it had done in any previous year. That meant that the Board of Agriculture used itself as a standard of comparison. Any growth of that kind might be of little account. It might be on a par with the announcement that there had been 100 per cent, increase in the converts to a certain faith, and yet only one and two people were concerned. If you take the number of applicants for small holdings and the number settled, you will find that the latter figure is astonishingly small in comparison. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that he had settled 2,000 men on the land. The salaries and expenses of the Department are over £170,000 a year. That sum would provide that 2,000 men with 30s. a week for life. I should like to know what the total administrative expenses are in relation to the number of men settled. I should be very much surprised if the figure did not work out at something like £1,000 a holding.
It is impossible to go into the whole of the details from examination of the accounts, but it is not difficult to find out what is the general opinion in Scotland about the Department. The feeling in Edinburgh, where a watch is kept on the offices, is that there is a great absence of administration shown there, and that the number of young men and women engaged is very much greater than is necessary. It is like all Government offices, grossly overstaffed and very expensively administered. They have fitted themselves up in great style in two grand buildings. They have a common room or refectory for their own use. When one considers what a small holding is, the poverty of it even when successfully cultivated, and the hardiness of the cultivator, and one then looks at the men who administer the Department, one feels that there is a great deal of unnecessary expenditure. A great many small holdings would be required to justify such an outlay. As a matter of policy, there, certainly, never was a better time than the present for setttling people on the land, for the general burden of rates and taxes has meant ruin to many of the landowners of Scotland, and they would be very glad to dispose of their land. Their position reminds me of the saying of one of the characters in "Lady Windermere's Fan": "The worst of a landed estate is that it gives you a position and prevents you from keeping it up." It is not the landowner who owns the land, but the land that owns him.
Give it back to the people, to whom it belongs.
There are many multiple farms in Scotland. I have heard of the case of a man farming no fewer than nineteen farms. Surely these are cases which might be investigated with a view to the settlement of smallholders. A point made by the Secretary for Scotland related to the difference between settling smallholders in England and settling them in Scotland. This is the only nation in the world where one man puts up a house and another man inhabits it. Go to the States or to the Continent. There everyone has to build a house for himself. A man who goes to any of our Colonies cannot find a house. He has to build one. The result is that he can prosper on a small holding. When a young man goes to a small holding there he is content with a rough shake-down until he has begun to prosper on his land. Instead of being sunk with a burden of debt at the outset he puts up a rough contrivance that suits him and proceeds to cultivate his land. In this country we spend all our money at the beginning and a man is burdened with that amount of debt from the outset. The land being the main thing, it would be better if soldiers who have been accustomed to an open air life were provided with a subsistence allowance until they get a holding in order. They could build a house of some sort with their own hands, as any handy man can do, and as they would have to do if they went to Canada or Newfoundland, or any such place. Then, as a man succeeded as a cultivator of the soil, he could build a better home. By adopting such methods settlement upon the land would not be so expensive. There would be a greater stimulus to those concerned, and you would get vastly greater numbers settled.
The number of men settled so far is infinitesimal. Think of the heart-burnings and the disappointments among the 90 per cent, who have waited for holdings in vain. I have had particulars of many hard cases sent to me, and I have been asked what I can do to help. I believe that in land settlement we can find a solution of many of our problems, but in country districts we educate our population for the clerk's desk, for the pen instead of for the plough. Still, there are many men who get the better of the education they receive, whose strong and vigorous common sense is sufficient to enable them to believe in land cultivation, and to know that labour thereon is a noble occupation. I should like to see all these men get a chance, and to see the land largely divided amongst them. I believe the true foundation of national life— above all, of agricultural life—is the foundation which Rome abandoned when she began to decay, namely, that the men who own the soil should cultivate it, and, when they cease to cultivate it, should cease to own it. That is the soundest of all foundations for a nation. Therefore, while I wish the Board of Agriculture every success in its labours, I do say that the Secretary for Scotland should take some professional advice. It is impossible for him, with the multifarious duties he has to perform, to attend to it, and, although he may take the Parliamentary reponsibility, he cannot know all that is going on in the Department. It needs overhauling from top to bottom, a diminution in the junior members of its staff, and a great increase in efficiency among the senior members. It will require that, and also a vast decrease in administrative expenses, before the people of Scotland are satisfied that it takes its proper place in the body politic.
Question put, and agreed to.
Class IV
Public Education, Scotland
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £4,024,904, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for Public Education in Scotland, and for Science and Art in Scotland, including a Grant in Aid."—[ Note. —£3,600,000 has been voted on account. ]
I shall not trespass long on the patience of the Committee. In considering education, our minds must turn first of all to the financial aspect. Nothing has been more under the eye of criticism of late than educational expenditure. With regard to educational expenditure in Scotland, we had an interesting Debate some months ago, and we had from the hon. and gallant Member for Fife (Colonel Sir A. Sprot) some most alarming figures as to what the cost was in various parishes. Since that speech was made we have had the educational budgets made up in Scotland, and they have been published for a large number of authorities. It is a striking fact, that under many of these authorities there have been marked decreases in the rates, such marked decreases indeed as to make us anxious to have the report of the Dunedin Commission on rates. I should like the Secretary for Scotland to give us some information as to how this Commission is working. I have seen no trace of any kind of its operations in the daily Press, and I am not quite sure whether it is in active operation at the present time or not. So great are the discrepancies in the educational rates of the present year in Scotland that it makes one feel that possibly the allocation of the Exchequer grants is not all that it might be. I am quite well aware that the Scottish Education Department have spent a great amount of thought and attention on the matter of the proper allocation of Exchequer grants. I am quite conscious that they have taken into their confidence, and taken along with them in the consideration of this matter, the Association of Education Authorities, but, still, the difference in the rates of Scotland for the current year is so great that I trust the Secretary for Scotland and the Scottish Education Department will not look upon the present method of allocation of grants as final, but will be willing by means of trial and error to find out which system will best suit the country.
In the second place, I should like to refer to a remark of the Secretary for Scotland on the occasion of the last Debate, when he said that he did not anticipate that it would be possible to put the Education Act of 1918 into full operation until, say, at the earliest the year 1925. It would be very foolish indeed to disregard the economic factors of the present time, but I was rather sorry to hear that remark made on the occasion referred to, because it seemed to me that by his making it the right hon. Gentleman was rather tying himself down to a date which, to some of us at any rate, appeared a bit far distant. We have to remember, in justice to our children, that year by year the school children are growing up, many of them going out very meagrely equipped, because the elementary school at the best can offer to the children, and especially to those who suffer from the present housing conditions, only a very moderate equipment for the battle of life. It is often said that at the present time there is opportunity for every child of ability and of reasonable education to go forward as far as he or she is able to go; but that is only partly true, because the child is not able to choose a career for himself. It depends largely on the parents, and unfortunately all parents are not all they should be. I speak as one who is not a parent. At the same time it must be remembered that the whole trend of our legislation for years back has been more and more towards the view that the child is born into the State as well as born into the family, and born into the State with certain rights, which lay upon it corresponding obligations. I am not going to indulge in any personal Jeremiad, but I am going to call the attention of the Secretary for Scotland to some remarks made in a publication for which the Education Department is responsible. I refer to a very valuable report issued on the training of teachers in Scotland, and I should like to pay in passing a tribute to the work which has been done by the National Committee and by the Provincial Committee for training teachers. This is what we find as the opening sentence of this Report, which is headed "The Supply of Teachers ": Next, we have something in the way of reconstruction policy, because the Report says:
There is another aspect of the matter to which attention should be called. The teaching profession and education in Scotland owe a great deal to the Secretary for Scotland and those who act with him for the insertion in the Act of a provision with regard to salary scales. I fear that these scales have not been interpreted so reasonably and equitably over the country as they might have been, and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman, in every way he can, will try to equalise the matter with authorities who are rather backward. I quite understand there is no responsibility upon the right hon. Gentleman or his advisers in the matter, but I think it is one to which he might give some consideration. There is only one other aspect to which I will refer, and that is the provision in the way of adult education. Much of the expenditure on elementary education must be, if not entirely wasted, at least, largely wasted if no provision be made for carrying education further. Therefore, I trust, while it is not possible at the present time to put the provisions of the Act with regard to continuation schools into immediate operation, that the Secretary for Scotland and his advisers, and possibly the Advisory Committee, which is qualified to render very admirable service, will consider what curricula should be applied to these schools when it is possible to bring them into full operation. If this country is to remain and, desirably, to enhance its position as an influence for good in the world of mankind, that can be achieved only if its citizens have better physique, more highly trained intellect, and sounder morale —in the best sense of that term. In no other way is such achievement possible.
In regard to Central Institutions, I regret to know that in some parts of the country the conditions of service are not what they might be. It is difficult to apportion the blame in these cases where the grants are derived partly from local sources and partly from departmental sources. But, after all, the Government and its Departments are really responsible for a national system of education, and I trust that care will be taken to link the system up from the elementary schools to the university. If it were possible to say a word or two about the universities, I should say that it is the duty of the Secretary for Scotland, and all those associated with him, to see that there is a clear run for the pupils from the elementary schools to the university. I would conclude by saying that we are keenly appreciative in Scotland of all that has been done by the Secretary for Scotland and his advisers, and if, at any time, we do indulge in a little criticism, it is quite of the friendliest nature, for we have all the best of wishes for the success of the right hon. Gentleman in the great work that he has in hand.
I wish to supplement the observations of my hon. Friend who has just spoken in regard to the importance of adult education in Scotland. I take this opportunity with all the more confidence because several months ago I spoke to the right hon. Gentleman opposite as to the importance of arriving at some definite policy in this most important matter. Hon. Members in all parts of the House will, I think, agree that we cannot for a moment suggest that we have discharged our duty in regard to adult education or semi-adult education in Scotland by the encouragement of continuation classes. Even if it were possible to apply all the Sections of the Act of 1918, something very much more than that is required, and I am going to submit to my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland that he has a basis on which he can work with comparative confidence, and, I think, convenience, in this matter of adult education in Scotland.
For some years past now on a strictly non-party and non-sectarian basis the Workers' Educational Association have conducted classes at the University of Edinburgh, and also at certain other universities and centres in different parts of the country. It is, of course, irrelevant on this Vote to discuss anything connected with the universities, but the actual position in Scotland is that adult education has been provided by arrangement Between the Workers' Educational Association on the one side and the local education authorities on the other. The universities, in so far as they have lent any assistance, have given merely a kind of general encouragement in the shape of the accommodation of classrooms, and one or two other forms of assistance which it is unnecessary to describe. Great success has attended this effort in adult education North of the Tweed. I think I am right in saying that the classes conducted at Edinburgh University last winter were the largest in the history of the association in Scotland.
Very soon the British Institute of Adult Education will enter the field. I am not going to suggest that the enterprise has so far been without faults. There have been weaknesses. There is no doubt whatever that there are great weaknesses in the existing scheme. An effort is to be made to lift adult education out of the kind of rut into which, I am afraid, it has in some parts of the country fallen. It is very important at the present time that we should know exactly what kind of encouragement we are going to get from the Scottish Education Department, and from the authorities responsible for education in Scotland. It has been urged that within recent times just as we started to educate the children in 1870, so it is very important that we should have a kind of national scheme for adult education in 1921. In the present economic and other circumstances of the country we probably cannot wait for the training of our children and for the coming generation in the way that was perhaps more readily possible in other and happier times. We must rely upon a large and increasing measure of adult education which is consistent with the principle that education should never really stop, but should be continuous throughout life itself. That is roughly the proposition which I press upon the attention of the Government, and I am hoping that, as the result of the very considerable notice which the Secretary for Scotland has got in this matter, he may be able to say something which will not be merely a great encouragement to the work of adult education in so far as it has already been overtaken in Scotland, but also to the work which we hope will be overtaken in future.
I hope it will be considered in order for an English Member to speak on the Scottish Estimates, because Scottish Members intervene frequently in our Debates on English matters, and Scotland can hardly be regarded as the peculiar property of Scottish Members. When I came into the House I heard the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities (Mr. Cowan) asking for a further recognition of teachers at, I presume, further expense, for an extension of adult education at, no doubt, further expense, and also for more continuation schools obviously at further expense and he concluded by saying how appreciative he was of all that had been done, and of the more that might be done, in respect of education. What I doubt is whether the Scottish taxpayer and ratepayer is so appreciative of all this.
On the occasion when the Scottish Estimates were last before the House I asked the Secretary for Scotland a question, and his reply was, "I shall hear the hon. Gentleman when the Estimates are before the House." The right hon. Gentleman did not hear me then because my rising was regarded as something approaching an outrage on Scottish Members, and in fact he did not hear what I had to say. If I understood rightly, the speech to which we have just listened seemed one long demand for further expenditure upon education, and a great appreciation of the enormous expenditure already incurred. According to the Estimates I have in my hand, there is an increase of the grants to local authorities in 1921–22 over the like grants in 1920–21 of £829,000. It is clearly quite in order to discuss that matter, because it is an enormous increase, but even that does not really satisfy the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, because he wants a, still greater increase, which would have to come out of somebody's pocket in Scotland.
I do not know why a Member who is in Scotland many times a year should not be allowed to say something on behalf of the Scottish taxpayers and ratepayers. I have heard nothing said on their behalf since I have been here. What is the explanation of the enormous increase of £829,0001 If you leave out of account Glasgow, and some of the more highly-populated districts, Scotland is not a rich country, and over £750,000 is a considerable sum. I want to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether these Estimates, which I do not pretend to have thoroughly studied—I am on the broad facts—include the absolutely crushing and intolerable increases of local rates for education, amounting in some cases to 200 per cent., 400 per cent., 500 per cent., and even 1,000 per cent.? Looking at the figures, I cannot see that these increases do come within the Estimate, but I confess it is not my particular business, as, except as a visitor to Scotland, I am not particularly interested. Do these vast, inexcusable, and intolerable increased burdens upon a few individuals in Scotland come up on these Estimates? If they do not, as I presume the Secretary for Scotland will tell me is the case, I wish to ask, what has been done to abate this intolerable oppression which obtains in various parts of Scotand? I repeat the words—intolerable oppression. I deliberately used that expression. I understand that a committee was appointed to consider the question. If so, has that committee reported? In a parish not very far from Glasgow, which I visit once a month probably, the local rates have risen by a thousand—
We are not discussing rates now. This is the Education Vote.
I quite admit that I am wrong. I did ask the Secretary for Scotland whether it was in order, and I ought to have asked you. If I am out of order in that respect I regret it, but nobody here seems to take any account of the grievance of the Scottish taxpayer in respect of the sum of" £800,000, which is in this Vote, and of the sums which are spent on education in Scotland from other sources.
I had not intended speaking on this Vote, but at this hour I see no chance of the Vote in which I am interested being reached, and I should like to say one or two words before the Secretary for Scotland replies to the important points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham.
On a point of Order. Is the hon. Member going to answer me, or the Secretary for Scotland?
My hon. Friend referred to the possibility that some Scottish Members might consider his rising to speak on this Vote to be an outrage, but I can assure him that there is no such feeling. We all know that he is only within his right in speaking on this subject at this time. But we Scottish Members do feel some sense of grievance. As an English Member, my hon. Friend has a large number of opportunities of discussing these matters so far as they concern his own constituency. He has the opportunity of the Ministry of Agriculture Vote, of the Board of Education Vote, of the Home Office Vote, and other opportunities, but all these opportunities, so far as Scotland is concerned, are rolled into a single day. This is the only opportunity that we have for discussing these matters which vitally affect our con stituencies, and, by monopolising that period of 10 minutes before 11 o'clock, my hon. Friend has prevented Scottish Members from raising matters which vitally concern Scotland on other Votes which now, unfortunately, cannot be reached. I think that, while he is acting quite within his technical rights in Parliament in doing that, because every Member is entitled to speak on these Votes, it would have been, perhaps, more courteous to his Scottish colleagues if he had ascertained beforehand that there were none of them who wished to raise matters affecting their own constituencies. My hon. Friend has told us that before he spoke he had a conference with the Secretary for Scotland. I am not sure whether the Secretary for Scotland was anxious that the matters which I proposed to raise should not be reached, and whether he encouraged my hon. Friend to rise and spend some time before 11 o'clock, but I have a slight suspicion as to what took place in the conference between them. All that I wish to do, however, on this occasion, is to make this gentle protest, and to say that I regret very much that, on the single day in the Session which is devoted to all the local affairs of Scotland, I have not been able to raise some of the matters that I desired to raise.
I should like in the first place to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton (Mr. M. Scott) on the gentleness of his protest, which must have been apparent to all of us. I should like also to assure him that there was no diabolical compact between the hon. Baronet the Member for Nottingham and myself to prevent my hon. Friend from raising the question which I know he desired to raise, and upon which I was quite prepared to meet him had there been time for discussion.
The hon. Baronet the Member for East Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees) used some very strong language. He said that a certain sum of money constituted an intolerable burden, and he repeated that language. I want, if I may, to enlighten him on the subject. The £800,000 of which he complained is eleven-eightieths of the sum which is devoted to English education, and the hon. Baronet's quarrel is clearly not with me, but with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education, who sits beside me. The hon. Baronet must go to the source of the evil, and must if he can diminish the sum which is granted to England.
By so doing he will then reduce the sum Scotland is entitled to ask on the Goschen basis. My hon. Friend also referred to the question of rates. That is an important question, and has given cause for a great deal of anxious consideration. I have appointed a Committee to investigate that question, and Lord Dunedin has been good enough to take the chair. I am grateful to him, and I am glad to assure my hon. Friend that that Committee is carrying on its operations with activity at the present moment. Its report has not yet been presented, but the Committee has sat on more occasions that I can recall. When the report of the Committee is presented we shall have an opportunity of discussing and deciding what should be done in the light of the report. While the Committee is sitting I should deprecate any discussion in this House upon a subject which is sub judice. I wish to say a word about the helpful and suggestive speech delivered by the Member for the Universities. The question of Exchequer grants is being looked into, and in looking into it I will bear in mind all that he has said.
Referring to the statement I made some time ago regarding the raising of the school age, and the institution of compulsory continuation classes, which I said would likely have to be postponed until 1925, I made that statement with some regard to the future, after careful and anxious deliberation. I have no reason to believe that that statement was ill-founded, when you remember the number of additional teachers who will be required and the increase of buildings and accommodation. If that is considered, I think it will be borne in on Members of the Committee that the date is not at all a doubtful one, though I should be very glad indeed if I am wrong. He also referred to the Report on the Training of Teachers. I regret the supply is not greater. He referred to the necessity for encouraging those who are teaching and those who are entering the profession. The effect of the War has upset all conditions with regard to the training of teachers. I very much hope that as conditions become normal the supply of teachers will increase. With regard to the subject of adult education, to which my hon. Friend referred, and in which the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh is also interested—it is a matter with regard to which we had a great deal of correspondence and also a conference with the Member for Central Edinburgh—I would say this: he knows the difference between the system in England and in Scotland, and probably the best course he can adopt, if he desires to impress his views upon those who really count, is to get into touch with the Education Authorities of Scotland in the various parts of the, country. When he has explained the special object and working of the classes to which he has referred he should ask them for the necessary assistance, under the powers which they possess, in order to promote the views he has in mind, and with which I am not at all out of accord. The Debate upon this Vote has been shorter than I anticipated. I regret that. Debates on former Votes have been longer than I anticipated. I will only say that the suggestions made by the hon. Member for the Universities, the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh, as well as the hon. Member for East Nottingham, will be Carefully considered with the view, if possible, to giving effect to them.
Question put, and agreed to.
Class Ii
Secretary for Scotland's Office
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £41,481, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of His Majesty's Secretary for Scotland and Subordinate Offices, Expenses under the Inebriates Acts, 1879 to 1900, and Expenses under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, and a subsidy for Steamer Services to the Hebrides."— [ Note. —£25,000 has been voted on account. ]
I should like to ask my right hon. Friend what steps he has taken, in connection with the Foreign Office, to deal with the territorial waters round the coast of Scotland, and especially in connection with the depredations which have been committed, to the grave injury of many of the people of Scotland and especially of many of my own constituents. There is a great part of the north-east of Scotland that is very vitally concerned in this question of the territorial waters, and I understand my right hon. Friend has at various times been approached upon this subject, and I understood he intended to take steps to place himself in consultation with the Foreign Office so that the Government might speak with one and no longer with divided voices upon this very important subject. It is a subject which has been of interest to us in Scotland for many years past. I have known of its existence all the time I have been connected with my constituency, which is now 25 years, and I believe the question was in existence even prior to that. The Secretary for Scotland has taken an important part himself in connection with this intricate and somewhat difficult subject, and on the occasion on which he took part in it he scored a very considerable success in the Scottish Courts, but unfortunately that success has not resulted in action on the part of the Government as a whole, which has carried out the objects which the Secretary for Scotland advocated at that time in the Courts, and which in the Scottish Courts he carried to a successful conclusion. Therefore, I wish to ask him how far he has now got in the negotiations with the Foreign Office, and whether he can give an assurance that this matter is receiving real and serious consideration, and that he will endeavour to carry it to a successful conclusion.
There is only time to say I am giving the matter most careful attention, and I am in communication with the Foreign Office on the subject.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
Committee to sit again To-morrow.
War Pensions Bill
As amended ( in the Standing Committee ), considered.
11.0 P.M.
The two new Clauses on the Paper (" Provision relating to officers and men suffering from tuberculosis or neurasthenia" ) and ( "Pensions Issue Office for Wales" ) are out of order, because they involve a charge.
Does the Second new Clause involve a charge? At the present time, the Pension Issue Office is a centralised office; but there are officials in the office who pay pensions out in the various localities, and it ought to be possible, with the accommodation which is available in Wales, in Scotland, and in various parts of the country, to utilise the present buildings with the present staff without additional charge. At the present time the pension is awarded in the locality, either in Scotland or in Wales or elsewhere, but before it can actually be paid out it has to go through London. All that this new Clause proposes is that there shall be one room in the present buildings where that award is made, through which the award could go and the pension be paid out on the spot. That, surely, could be done in the present buildings by a rearrangement of the staff without involving a charge.
In my opinion it does involve a charge.
CLAUSE 1. — (Establishment of War Pensions Committees.)
(2) Before making any order under this Section, the Minister shall take such steps as he may think desirable to consult persons and bodies affected thereby, including local committees.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the word "such" ["take such steps"].
The purpose of this Amendment is that in this matter the Minister shall consult the bodies affected by the re-arrangements foreshadowed in the Bill. The Clause as it stands goes part of the way to meet the criticism which was offered in Committee, but it would be more generous to these bodies throughout the country which have done such excellent service during the last five years with regard to the administration of pensions, if the right hon. Gentleman would go the whole way and say that they should be consulted when this re-arrangement of areas was taking place. This Bill is making a fundamental change in the administrative machinery of pensions and is reducing from 1200 to 400 the various committees which are now charged with the work and which have done the work in most trying times in an able and successful way. When the right hon. Gentleman is making this change he ought to take cognisance of the experience they have had and consult them in all cases, so that the area which he sets up shall be in conformity with the needs and requirements of the district. No matter how sympathetic or how able the Minister is, it is impossible from headquarters in London to know the exact requirements and what is best to serve the interests of each particular district. The House has a right to expect that in making this fundamental change the local authorities shall be consulted, and that they shall be able to make representations to the Minister, and that he should not be able arbitrarily to decide whether or not he will consult them. No doubt the present Minister will consult them, but there are rumours according to which before this Act is in full working order there may be big changes, and even if it is too great a flight of imagination to suggest that the occupants of the Treasury Bench might disappear, yet possibly the right hon. Gentleman himself, like some of the rest of us, might disappear. Therefore, though I value his pledge, yet the House wants something more than the promise of a Minister, and if a thing is good in itself it should be put into the Bill, and then we should know that come what may in future local authorities who have done so much to work the pensions scheme will be consulted in this reorganisation.
I beg to second the Amendment. There are some parts of the country where it is absolutely necessary for the Minister to seek advice. I was glad to hear my right hon. Friend say that he was making arrangements in many parts of the country with a scattered population. I trust that he will consult those committees in remote parts of the country where a local committee is necessary, as a central committee cannot administer the Bill properly unless they have the advice and assistance of people who are acquainted with the peculiar conditions of these places. It will be impossible in the insular parts of the country to have efficient administration unless there is provision for committees in these parts. Therefore I hope that not only will the right hon. Gentleman exercise his own knowledge of these parts which is profound, but that he will consult the men who have been administering these Acts during the last five years before he takes any final step.
As I told the Committee upstairs, I am in sympathy with the spirit of the Amendment. So much so that in the Committee I said that the local committees should be consulted. I also promised that the local regional advisory committees would be consulted. The gist of the arguments of my two hon. Friends, with which I agree, is that we should consult all local interests. In my judgment all the points are covered by the Amendment of the hon. Member (Mr. Thomson) lower down—
"Before appointing any such committees the Minister shall take into consideration any representations that may be made to him by organisations representative of the various interests concerned."
That is entirely a different matter. The first Amendment deals with the areas which will be reorganised; the second deals with the personnel of the committees after the areas have been reorganised.
I thought the speeches of my two hon. Friends laid stress on the consultation with local interests. The local interests concerned are represented by the local committees and the local advisory council. What are the local committees? They are bodies appointed by the local authorities, and the local authorities are appointed by the people of the district, including the ex-service men. I have promised to consult the local committees. I cannot go further.
What my right hon. Friend does not understand even now is that the form which appears in the Bill makes it possible that he may take no steps at all. That is the whole point. The Clause read:
"Before making any order"—
that is, an order which will re-arrange the areas of local war pensions committees—
"the Minister shall take such steps as he thinks desirable…"
The object of the Amendment is that the Minister shall take such steps as the House thinks he ought to take in rearranging the areas. I have no great belief in the creation of all these new areas. Of the 3½ million people concerned the bulk will be on permanent pensions within the next six months. That being so, there is to be very little work for the local war pensions committees to do effectively. While it is, perhaps, desirable to counteract in some way what we are pleased to call bureaucracy in this House, it seems to be a monstrous waste of time and money and effort to set up a great number of new areas. But if my right hon. Friend brings that forward as the view of the Government, and says they are going to establish new areas, I desire that that shall not be left in the hands of the Minister. After all, the Minister —not the present occupant of the Ministry but his predecessors and others—have asked the people in these areas to do a large amount of voluntary work. He says that in most cases they have done it competently. They seem to me to be far more capable of determining the convenience of the area than the Minister or any of his servants. My right hon. Friend may think it rude of me to say so bluntly. What the right hon. Gentleman says is that it is to be left for him to take such steps as he thinks desirable. If he does not think any step desirable he does not take it.
I give my pledge.
We have had any number of ministerial pledges. I know my right hon. Friend probably as well as most people in this House. We went to the same university, and we have been friends all along. I would accept his word for any pledge that he cared to give. But this is a Government pledge. It is not worth the paper on which it is written. It is not worth the breath expended in making it. As somebody has pointed out, my right hon. Friend may be succeeded by his Under-Secretary, who might take an entirely different view. The Government might go, and he might be succeeded by some of us who would scrap all their pledges. It is not good enough simply to have a Ministerial pledge. You must have it either one way or the other. Either these people who have given their services should be consulted, or the Minister ought to say quite frankly: "This Bill is going to get rid of the local War Pensions Committees by making pensions permanent, and you had better leave it to me to make such arrangements as I can." That is honest, straightforward and candid, but if you put into the Bill that the Minister is empowered to take such steps as he thinks desirable, Members of this House will be inundated with letters from local War Pensions Committees, pointing out that the Minister has done this, that and the other thing, there will be a series of questions on the paper and all the old trouble. I would advise the Minister to take up a firm position which we can understand. One part of this Bill is bluff, and the other part is hard, stern reality. The best part of this Bill is the part which gives permanent pensions, and that will wipe out local committees. Do not let us go on with the humbug of setting up machinery which is not necessary.
I hope the House will not accept the Amendment. The hon. Member who has just spoken used in defence of the Amendment a curious argument. He said there was no necessity to set up these new areas at all, because the bulk of the pensions will be permanent within six months. I am surprised how the hon. Member—whom I understood to have a considerable knowledge of pensions administration—could conceive that 3,500,000 men, or the bulk of them, could be put upon a permanent award in six months. When you consider that the ordinary administration work has still to be carried on and that many of these men were not discharged until 1919, and that there is a limit of four years which takes us up to 1923. There is every reason why these local areas should be established and the Ministry was fully justified in establishing them as regards time. Regarding the Amendment itself, apart from the fact that there are considerably over 1,000 localities with special committees, there is also an enormous number of local authorities. If the Minister is tied down to consulting every local committee and every local authority it will not only considerably delay re-organisation but result in confusion, because the Minister will be inundated with the views of the different localities on small points. Many of the committees will look at the situation not from the larger point of view but solely from their own small point of view. I am interested to hear the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) also say that when the Opposition come into power, they are going to scrap all the pledges of the Government and I presume he means all the pledges with regard to pensions.
It seems to me that the argument addressed to the House by the hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken is an argument in favour of the Amendment and not against it. His argument is that if the Minister proceeds without consultation, he will be inundated by letters from all the different local authorities submitting that their views have not been taken into account.
I did not say that.
I understood that was what the hon. Member said, and I think that impression is shared by the House.
I said the very opposite.
Well, if that is going to take place, and if there are in this country—as there are—many people who have been entrusted during the last five years with work of this kind and have given valuable service, handsomely recognised by the Minister, are their views not to be considered? It is not the desire of the Minister, I am sure, to ignore those views. It is his desire to meet them. It is his desire, that when these areas are set up they shall meet with the consent and approbation of the whole country. He has got a very responsible task before him. He is administering a very large sum of money, almost equal to half the revenue of this country before the War, and it is essential that he should have the entire co-operation, sympathy, and concurrence of the local authorities. I really cannot understand why he should be boggling at this Amendment. In this Clause he has got two tasks to do. He has got to divide this country into suitable areas, and he has got to appoint upon these committees suitable persons, and when he comes to the latter task he is willing, I understand—and we are grateful to him for it—to accept an Amendment requiring him to take into consideration any representations that are made to him by organisations representative of the various interests concerned with regard to the personnel of these committees. That involves that he is going to be made conversant with the points of view of the people who have been operating all over the country, and if there is going to be an inundation, it will come upon him with respect to that point.
I want to suggest to the Minister that his attitude is one that he might perhaps abandon, and I think it would be a great pity if his opposition to the Amendment should harden to the point of absolutely refusing to consider it. I do not think it is quite in consonance with the general policy which the Government has adopted with regard to other and very important measures. We have got at the present time about 1,200 committees dealing with pensions, and that figure is going to be reduced to 400. In other words, the right hon. Gentleman will group these committees, just as the railway companies are being grouped. Let me commend to him the course taken by the Minister of Transport, who has been at pains to acquaint himself with the views of all those interests with which he is dealing, to receive representations from them, and to hear what they had to put before him. I suggest to the Minister of Pensions that he would be wise to follow that policy. It is rather an ungrateful thing to ignore the wishes, or not to consult the wishes, of the people who have been engaged in the present areas. This question of areas is a very important one. It is mixed up with local feeling, and I think it would be a pity if we in this House were to divorce ourselves from local feeling, make local authorities feel that the Government did not care about this, and that this Government was grasping at a bureaucratic power, which they were going to exercise whether local authorities agreed with it or not. Under the Clause as it stands, the Minister is obliged to take steps to consult these persons and bodies, but it is left to his option to decide what those steps may be. What we seek to do under this Amendment is to make it obligatory upon him to consult the bodies affected by this Bill, and to take such steps as will enable every body which is affected by this Bill to put him in possession of
their views. Is that an unreasonable attitude to take up? It has been said that there are 1,200 bodies, but he has not got to take those bodies seriatim, and so spread the thing over a great period of time. With the machinery at his disposal, it is possible for him to make himself acquainted with the views of 1,200 bodies in the same time as he can make himself acquainted with the views of 100, and I do press upon him the importance of considering the feelings of these local bodies. Every member of this House must have received letters from the local authorities in the areas with which he is concerned, putting forward their desire to be consulted on this question. The Minister is asked to take the necessary steps, and the House is asked to make it obligatory on the Minister to take those steps. I suggest that we should not leave a question of this kind to be dependent upon the personal goodwill or faith of a particular Minister. That is what we are asked to do. The Minister gives his personal pledge, and if we were assured of his continuance in the position, that would probably be sufficient; but I do not think it is a sound principle that legislation should be based on the continuance in office of any Minister. We have had experience in this Parliament of how short is the tenure of any particular Minister in any particular office, and how a change of opinion or policy on the part of the Government is made coincident with a change of office, and it might very well be that the present Minister of Pensions might be found a more important office in the Government than he now occupies. He has not suggested any really sound reason against the Amendment.
Question put, "That the word 'such' stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 127; Noes, 40.
Division No. 298.] AYES. [11.30 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Entwistle, Major C. F. Amery, Leopold C. M. S. Carr. W. Theodore Evans, Ernest Armstrong, Henry Bruce Casey, T. W. Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Baird, Sir John Lawrence Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Fildes, Henry Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Ford, Patrick Johnston Barlow, Sir Montague Coats, Sir Stuart Forrest, Walter Barnston, Major Harry Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Breese, Major Charles E. Edgar, Clifford B. Gould, James C. Broad, Thomas Tucker Edge, Captain William Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Brown, Major D. C. Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham. S.) Greig, Colonel Sir James William Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Gritten, W. G. Howard Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith) Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) M'Connell, Thomas Edward Smith, Sir Malcolm (Orkney) Henderson Major V. L. (Tradeston) McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Stanier, Captain Sir Beville Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Macquisten, F. A. Starkey, Captain John Ralph Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Hinds, John Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Hood, Joseph Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Hopkins, John W. W. Murchison, C. K. Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Murray, William (Dumfries) Tryon, Major George Clement Hurd, Percy A. Neal, Arthur Waddington, R. Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Jameson, John Gordon O'Neill. Major Hon. Robert W. H. Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Jephcott, A. R. Parker, James Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Jodrell, Neville Paul Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry White, Col. G. D. (Southport) Johnson, Sir Stanley Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Whitla, Sir William Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Lianelly) Pratt, John William Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Purchase, H. G. Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H. Kidd, James Rankin, Captain James Stuart Wise, Frederick King, Captain Henry Douglas Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Worsfold, T. Cato Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Rose, Frank H. Young, E. H. (Norwich) Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Roundel), Colonel R. F. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Lindsay, William Arthur Royden, Sir Thomas Younger, Sir George Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Senders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Lorden, John William Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. Lort-Williams, J. Seddon, J. A. Dudley Ward. Lowther, Major C. (Cumberland, N.) Shaw, William T. (Forfar)
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Hartshorn, Vernon Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hayward, Evan Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hogge, James Myles Swan, J. E. Bromfield, William John, William (Rhondda, West) Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) Cairns, John Jones, J. J. (West Ham. Silvertown) Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Waterson, A. E. Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Morgan, Major D. Watts Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Myers, Thomas Wilson, James (Dudley) Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Glanville, Harold James Raffan, Peter Wilson Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Mr. Trevelyan Thomson and Major Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Robertson, John Barnes. Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Sexton, James
CLAUSE 2.—(Functions of war pensions committees.)
(1) The functions of a committee established under this Act shall be—
( c ) to hear and consider complaints made to the committee by persons in receipt of or claiming pensions, and to make representations thereon to the Minister; and
I now call upon the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Charles Edwards) to move his Amendment to Clause 2, new paragraph ( d ).
May I ask why the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Thomson) has been passed over. It is a very important one dealing with the whole of Sub-section (3) of Clause 1, and raises the question as to whether disabled men, of whom there are over 3,000,000—
In the exercise of my discretion in this matter, I have called upon the hon. Member for Bedwellty.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1, c ), to insert a new paragraph—
( d ) To consider applications for the commutation of pensions and to make recommendations thereon to the Minister; and
We want to make it as difficult as possible for men to commute their claims. A man might be out of employment or he might be sick for a short period, and this Clause would permit him to get a few pounds which he would probably be only too ready to do. I think the Committee ought to consider all these claims most carefully before agreeing to any commutation. I have come across cases of men who have got into debt and they have got agents to try and get commutation of their pensions, and on the committee with which I am connected we have always tried to make commutation as difficult as possible. I understand that the Minister in charge of the Bill is willing to accept this Amendment with certain reservations. I think, however, that I ought to put the point that the present Minister of Pensions will not always be the Minister in charge, whereas the committees as they fall out will have the vacancies filled and consequently there will be a continuity of committees. These cases ought to come before them and only on the strongest recommendation of these committees should the Department agree to commutation.
I beg to second the Amendment. Under the old Compensation Act, the agents of insurance companies used to go to injured persons, and sometimes to the widow whose husband had been killed, and make arrangements with them; but under the amending Insurance Act none of these agents can commutate a claim without first getting the sanction of the registrar of the County Council. We now want to make arrangements so that people will not be able to commutate their pension claims without safeguards for the interests of the wife and the children and the ratepayers as a whole.
I am entirely in agreement with the warning which both my hon. Friends have given against the dangers of the commutation of pensions. We all know what happens. A man sees some opening, and wishes to get his pension commuted. The chance proves to be a failure, and then the man wants to come back on the State. He is a man who has been wounded, a man with every claim on the State, and he asks to have the commuted pension restored. I am not prepared to accept this Amendment, but not quite for that reason. There are cases where we do commute, such as cases of emigrants and the cases of officers whose pensions are sufficiently large to allow of the commutation of a part, leaving them, enough to have something to live on. Most of the cases are those in which a man emigrates. In those cases we want to commute rapidly, as soon as we are sure that we have a good case, and the insertion of these words in the Statute would compel us to consult the local committee before we commuted a pension. The essence of the thing is to get it done quickly if the man be going overseas, and if a committee meet only once a month it would hold us up.
Does this mean just another pledge from the Ministry? Is the reply to this Amendment this—that the Ministry will continue to do what they are doing? That is what it amounts to. Everybody knows that the Ministry does commute in the case of emigration. This Amendment gives power to the local war pensions committees to consider applications for commutation, and I am against that, and would support the Government in resisting it, for the simple reason that the local war pensions committees are going to be of no use to anybody, and least use, of all to discharged or disabled men. Why not be quite frank about it, and say "We are doing this now, and there is no necessity to move this Amendment, and therefore we resist it"?
May I ask whether, when we come to Clause 7, the Minister would consider putting in words on this point? The Clause reads:
"The Minister, on the application of any person in receipt of a pension, may in his discretion, and on the prescribed terms,"
and then it goes on,
"commute any part of the pension."
Could he there put in some such words as "after consultation with the local committee"? In many cases the local knowledge in the possession of the local committee would be invaluable on this very question of commutation, and if the right hon. Gentleman, without tying himself down to consult the local committee in every case, could consult them in cases in which there is no great hurry, and in which local knowledge would be of service, I suggest that that might be an alternative which would meet the wishes of the Mover of the Amendment and of many of us who consider the Amendment to be an important one.
I may say at once that in any case in which it came to the question of commutation our desire at once would be to avail ourselves of the information to be obtained, not only from the local area offices, but from the voluntary workers in those areas. Our objection to this Amendment is the one which I have mentioned, namely, that it would create delay in cases in which we wanted to com- mute the pension of a man going overseas. This Amendment would not stop the commutation of pensions, although its supporters talk as though it would.
Without consultation.
We want to avoid delay in urgent cases, but apart from that, whenever opportunity offers we shall wish to consult the Committee, and we agree that it is advantageous to do so.
Would it not be possible to insert these words with a reservation?
It is very difficult to do that. The practice in the Ministry is to resist commutation in all save the most exceptional cases, but I can conceive of cases—and I have had a good deal of experience—in which you might want to get the thing through hurriedly. If we had to consult the Committee in every possible case, we should have to summon the whole 25 from all the various parts of the area, pay all the expenses, and then leave the whole matter in doubt. Therefore, in those cases, it would be wise to leave the Minister with this power, the assurance having been given that we do resist commutation in all save the most exceptional cases. I think it would be retarding procedure to insert these words now.
If some such words as these are not put in, with the reservation suggested, the Committees will have nothing whatsoever to do with these claims, and we feel that generally speaking the Committees are the best people to judge.
I agree, and that is the practice in the Ministry. The committees are consulted on these points, and I propose to maintain that procedure, but I think it would be highly inadvisable, and I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree with me, to put any words of this kind into an Act of Parliament, because it would compel me in every case—and there are 3,500,000 beneficiaries—to summon the local committee, at great expense and at great inconvenience to the various members of the committee. I again give the assurance that I will look into this matter with great care myself, and that in all cases in which the committees can be consulted they shall be consulted.
On that promise, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The next Amendment on the Paper—to add a paragraph including among the functions of a committee the making of arrangements for the after-care of pensioners who have undergone treatment—is outside the scope of the Bill, and, moreover, would impose a charge. So far as I am aware, the Minister has no power to undertake the after-care of pensioners.
CLAUSE 4.—(Final awards.)
(3) If any person in whose case a final award has been made under this Section is dissatisfied with the award, he may, at any time within one year from the date on which notice of the making of the award is given to him, appeal to a Pensions Appeal Tribunal established under Section eight of the Act of 1919, and the tribunal shall, if they are of opinion that, having regard to all the circumstances of the case, the final award ought not to have been made or that the proper amount has not been awarded, as the case may be, either set aside the award or increase or decrease the amount thereof as they think proper, and shall in any other case disallow the appeal:
I beg to move, in Sub-section (3), to leave out the words "one year" ["at any time within one year from the date on which notice"], and to insert thereof the words "two years."
We are of opinion that the period of one year is insufficient. We think that if the door is going to be closed on the person who is receiving a pension, you will have very hard cases in so far as these ex-service men are concerned. I have several cases in my own mind that would be hit very hard. Of course we all agree you must have some finality, but we do not think that twelve months is really sufficient for making appeals. May I give one or two illustrations. We may have a person suffering from tuberculosis. He may be in the first stages of tuberculosis and may have his final award. He may follow his employment, and during the first twelve months everything may go on nicely. But in two or three years time the disease may develop so that it would be actually impossible for him to follow his employment at all, although he may have a final award of twenty-five or fifty per cent, disability. I do not think the Government ought to treat these ex-service men different from the dealings of Trade Unions with their members, or different from the way in which employers treat their men under the Compensation Act. We know it is always possible for a person who has had an accident to have his case re-opened. If the Medical Referee decides that a person is able to follow his employment, the judge always protects him by paying him say one penny a week, or something of that kind, so that he may re-open his claim if he gets worse, or becomes unable to follow his employment. I do not think we ought to treat these ex-service men worse than people are treated under the Compensation Act, or by the Trade Unions.
I must say this quite frankly that when I came to this House, in 1918, I found great sympathy and great enthusiasm on behalf of the ex-service men. I believe that feeling has evaporated. [ Dissent. ] I am making a general statement. I am charging no one. I do not feel the same atmosphere of sympathy and enthusiasm on behalf of the ex-service men. I think we ought to make a stretch in order to meet these men, in case some hard cases may arise, an give them the opportunity to make an appeal after twelve months. We have obligations to these ex-service men and we have a duty to carry out these obligations honourably. We have those with different men who will not think about making an appeal in time. You have these men in all classes of society, and you have them amongst the ex-service men in exactly the same way. We think it is very hard that there should be a limit of twelve months. We think it should be two years.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I would like to say that we welcome the system of final awards, and we do it because we know the men have become thoroughly dissatisfied with the repeated medical examinations, very often unnecessary, which they have to face. Examinations, in my opinion, are very often retarding the recovery of the men, instead of advancing it. But we are not unconscious of the danger to the men that exists so far as the final award comes in. In cases where men are suffering from complaints which are liable to recur, like neurasthenia or tuberculosis, which may be latent for a considerable period and then break out in a virulent form, or even in the case of wounds which may break out after a long period, one feels that it is desirable in the interests of the men, and, I think, in the interests of the community, that there should be a sufficient period after the final award has been made in which, if there is a decline or an outbreak of the kind I have mentioned, he should be entitled to have his case re-heard. We may be accused of wanting finality on one side and yet wanting the open door on the other. I am not sensitive on that point because I feel that the real interest of the House is to safeguard the interests of these men. It is not our interest or our policy to make it easy for the men to be got rid of or to lose their pensionable rights. Rather is it the best interest of the House to make it difficult for any man with a reasonable claim to lose his rights under that claim. We think the period of twelve months is too short. It is a comparatively short time in the history of some of these diseases, and we believe, as the principle of a period for testing the validity of the award has been recognised, it would be a good thing for the House and would give confidence to the men if the period could be increased to two years. Certainly, in a matter like this, if we err we should err on the side of giving the fullest possible advantage to the men and making it difficult for any man to lose any reasonable rights arising out of his war service.
12 M.
I am not prepared to accept the Amendment. The hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. T. Griffiths) hardly did justice to the House when he said that little interest was taken in pensions and in the ex-service men. His own speech showed great sympathy with the ex-service man, and the House sat till 3 o'clock one morning and the Committee on the Pensions Bill met at 11 o'clock that same morning and was crowded with Members. I realise that both speeches were full of sympathy, and the hon. Members wished to do their best for the ex-service man, but I do not think they were doing it in the best way. These medical boards are necessary because for a long time the men are getting better or getting worse, and if you do not have a medical board at first the men who are getting worse do not get higher pensions, and those who are getting better retain pensions to which they are no longer entitled. At four years you arrive at a point where large numbers of pensions must be finally settled. A man suffering from tuberculosis who is obviously getting worse would not be given a final pension. We are not compelled to give final pensions. His case would be left open, or any other case that we, thought was getting worse, and under a warrant, under which he has full statutory right, he would get full treatment allowance, hospital allowance and allowances for his wife and children should he, with a small permanent pension, become incapacitated and go into hospital.
With regard to the Amendment, I hold that two years is far too long. If you are
going to prolong the period to six years before you get finality it would have been better to give five years before the final award and only have one during which to appeal. If you leave the appeal open a man may be engaged in an unhealthy occupation and we lose touch with him and we have no record of his medical history in those two years. The men themselves would run some risk, because if they are found to be, better and they appealed they would lose pensions which they would retain if they had been content with what they had got. Two years is too long a period to leave the matter open which the House has just decided should be settled at the end of four years.
Question put, "That the words 'one year' stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 109; Noes, 33.
Division No. 299.] AYES. [12.2 a. m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Gould, James C. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Amery, Leopold C. M. S. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Armstrong, Henry Bruce Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Parker, James Baird, Sir John Lawrence Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Balfour, George (Hampstead) Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Barlow, Sir Montague Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Pratt, John William Barnston, Major Harry Hinds, John Rankin, Captain James Stuart Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Hood, Joseph Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Hopkins, John W. W. Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Breese, Major Charles E. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Broad, Thomas Tucker Hurd, Percy A. Royden, Sir Thomas Brown, Major D. C. Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Senders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Jameson, John Gordon Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Jodrell, Neville Paul Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Carr, W. Theodore Johnson, Sir Stanley Seddon, J. A. Casey, T. W. Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Lianelly) Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill Kidd, James Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Coats, Sir Stuart Kiley, James Daniel Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Cohen, Major J. Brunel King, Captain Henry Douglas Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Edgar, Clifford B. Lindsay, William Arthur Tryon, Major George Clement Edge, Captain William Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Wallers, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham, S.) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Lorden, John William Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Entwistle, Major C. F. Lort-Williams, J. White, Col. G. D. (Southport) Evans, Ernest Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith) Whitla, Sir William Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. M'Connell, Thomas Edward Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H. Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Wise, Frederick Fildes, Henry Macquisten, F. A. Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Young, E. H. (Norwich) Ford, Patrick Johnston Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Forrest, Walter Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Murchison, C. K. Mr. McCurdy and Colonel Leslie Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Murray, William (Dumfries) Wilson. Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Neal, Arthur
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Glanville, Harold James Morgan, Major D. Watts Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Myers, Thomas Bromfield, William Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Cairns, John Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Raffan, Peter Wilson Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Hartshorn, Vernon Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Hogge, James Myles Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) John, William (Rhondda, West) Robertson, John Sextan, James Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Waterson, A. E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Wilson, James (Dudley) Mr. Thomas Griffiths and Mr. Swan, J. E. Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Charles Edwards. Thomson, T. (Middlesborough, West)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
I wish to congratulate the Minister and also the hon. Member for Brighton, for having carried the Bill as far as this with so little difficulty, and for the courtesy with which they have treated most of our Amendments in Committee. There are only two points I wish to raise. One refers to an Amendment I had put down in Committee, which the Minister said he could neither accept nor reject. I wanted to know if ex-soldiers who had been employed on the Committees, and are now to be discharged, when applying at a Government Department for new jobs, would be given equal consideration with any ex-soldiers discharged from that Government Department. The other point refers to the recommendations of the Departmental Committee. We have now had time to read them, and most of us think they are very good. There are some 180 of them, and very few were embodied in the Bill. I realise, of course, that a very great number of them refer to matters of detail. I would like to ask the Minister if he will give an assurance that any recommendations of moment not included will be given careful consideration.
I wish to draw the attention of the House to a statement, made by the right hon. Gentleman on the Second Beading of the Bill, which somewhat reflected on the party for whom I am speaking. Dealing with the Clause relating to limiting the time in which a claim for a pension may be made, the right hon. Gentleman made reference to the system adopted in America and in France, and he made a comparison with what he said was a suggestion contained in a memorandum of the Labour party which recommended a six months' time limit so far as applications for certain classes of pensions were concerned. In doing that the Minister, I have no doubt inadvertently, did a grave injustice to those who were responsible for drafting this important memorandum on the question of pensions. The recommendations which the Labour party made, I believe, were favourably commented upon at the time by the right hon. Gentleman, and he will admit that we have a right to call attention to the little error that crept into his observations on the Second Beading of this Bill. In the first instance, we said: there does seem to be evidence of that spirit to which I have referred. That is the only fear I have in regard to this particular Measure. I join in the congratulations extended to the Minister on the business-like way he has tackled the problem so far. My only fear is, that when the Measure becomes operative there may be a tendency to make it more difficult for some classes of applicants to secure the pensions which they desire and deserve. I hope that will not be the case, and I believe every section of the House will endeavour as far as possible to assist the Minister.
I regret that the right hon. Gentleman could not see his way to accept the Amendments which we put down in Committee. I further regret that you, Mr. Speaker, under the Standing Orders of the House, had to rule these particular proposals out of order, because I feel that, had they become operative, they would have assisted the Minister in the discharge of a very difficulty duty. Like every other Member of the House, I have brought to my notice, from time to time, particular cases of hardship which do not come within the scope of any Measure passed so far. As far as this Measure is concerned, cases will continue to arise every day of the week and every week of the year in which no assistance is possible. I regret that the Minister has not taken unto himself power to see that these hard cases are covered in the Bill which is becoming law. I give one example in support of the contention I am making. I have here documents dealing with a tuberculosis case, in which it is said the man's disability is not attributable to his Army service. I have certificates from the man's own medical adviser and from the tuberculosis officer of the district, to the contrary, but despite months and months of effort, of badgering the Ministry, and of going to this authority and that authority, we find this particular man, who is undoubtedly suffering in consequence of his war service, having to undergo the degradation of asking for Poor Law assistance. I do not think there is anyone in this House who desires to see a man, after making such sacrifices, being put to the degradation of asking for Poor Law assistance. That is an additional reason why I regret that the Minister has not accepted the recommendations which were made to him, and made special provision for these cases. I know there are means whereby the difficulties can be got over. I fought one case for one year and nine months, and was told almost weekly by the Ministry there was no justification for the claim. At the end of a year and nine months the Ministry were persuaded that the man's case was a good one. His was a tuberculosis case. He received an award after he had been suffering agony and had to go to the board of guardians for assistance. His wife and children had been living in misery and destitution, and that is the reward you are giving to many hundreds of these men.
It is a disgrace that we should permit this kind of thing to go on, if it is possible to avoid it. I think the Minister should set his wits to work to see that that particular class of case is met. Some few months ago I put a question to my right hon. Friend's predecessor and asked him if he could tell us how many of these cases which had gone to appeal had been dismissed on the ground of their disability or said not to be attributable to army service, and I was told there were 240,000 and probably a similar number waiting for their cases to be heard. It appears to me that we are so indifferent that we can allow these men, and probably a large percentage of them are tuberculosis patients, to run broadcast through the country suffering from the disease which was either aggravated or directly caused by military service. It is astounding to me to be told that the only redress that we can give to these men is to permit them to go to boards of guardians and ask for such assistance as can be procured from them. The other class of case was the neurasthenia class. Everyone knows of the hardships of these particular men. The Minister knows more than anybody else the great need of these cases, and I could give the House some particulars of the punishment which is being inflicted on these men because of their terrible situation and the privations caused to their wives and families. I want to ask the Minister if at this stage of the Bill he can hold out some measure of hope and find a form of administration which will meet the hardships of the cases to which I have alluded.
I should like to thank the Members for the words of praise which they have ventured to speak to my hon. Friend and colleague and myself. May I first of all say that I am delighted to give the assurance to my hon. and gallant Friend, the Member for Fairfield (Major Cohen), on the two points which he has raised. With regard to some of the remarks of my hon Friend, the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. F. Roberts), let me assure him that this Bill has no intention whatsoever, nor have I, nor has the Government, of reversing in any way the legitimate allowances granted by the State and this House to the ex-service men of this country. The idea behind this Bill is to effect economies, if possible, in administration. I willingly admit that he and his colleagues have been anxious, and it has been shown in all corners of the House, to see that justice is done to these men, and I have had the greatest assistance from my hon. Friend and many of his colleagues in my attempts to see that their rights are secured and justly attended to. I am sorry if in the course of the Debate in Committee upstairs I in any way misrepresented the position of the Labour party. I remember the incident very well, and if my recollection is right I thought the Labour party recommended the period as recommended in the Compensation Acts, of six months for these two classes, and I take this first available opportunity of correcting it, and I apologise if I made any mistake of any sort or kind. My hon. Friend has made a very moving appeal to us. The War brought to the surface no fewer than 100 different sorts of cases, and the real reason why I resisted, although my sympathy was with the hon. Gentleman, the two cases he mentioned, was that I could not, as Minister, differentiate between those two cases and the 98 other cases brought to my notice. I hope my hon. Friend and his party will realise that we are just as anxious to see that these hard cases are looked after as anyone in the House or outside. I. would like to conclude with thanks to the House as a whole, and particularly to the Committee upstairs for the assiduity with which they attended the two short meetings, and for the great encouragement and assistance they gave me in trying to produce what is not, I trust, a party Bill, but a real national Bill in the best interests of economy and efficiency, and, above all, in the best interests of the ex-service men.
In Sub-section (6) of Clause 1 the Minister takes power, in the appointment of any officers required for the administration of any business which he takes over, to consult the existing local committees. When he is going to appoint a chief area officer, will he invariably take into consideration the claims of the secretary of the local war pensions committee? I ask that not only from the point of view of the secretary, but in the interests of the local ex-service men. May I take it that the secretary of the local committee shall have a primâ facie claim to be appointed the chief area officer, or whatever the title is to be? If he be a really good man, and has been carrying out his administrative duties well, he ought to have this primâ facie claim to be considered. At the present moment, although the Minister may not know it, there is a fear that he will invade all these offices with nominees from headquarters, who will have no local knowledge. I have been brought into close personal touch with my own local secretary, and all the local ex-service men get on well with him, and I think this is a point of importance.
I am very glad to be able to say a word on that. It is to my own interest that I should appoint the most efficient men to do the work. I have got certain things laid upon me by the Cabinet and by the House. I should like, primâ facie, to give preference to ex-service men if they have been performing their duties locally in an efficient manner. Those are the two cardinal principles on which I shall choose my men, and I hope the House will not press me further.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the Third time, and passed.
Land Settlement Amendment [Money]
Committee to consider of amending Section 14 of the Land Settlement (Facilities) Act, 1919, and Sections 26 and 29 of the Land Settlement (Scotland) Act, 1919, by extending the periods of time therein, respectively, mentioned, and of raising the limit on the aggregate which may amount which may be issued out of the Consolidated Fund under the said Section 26 for the purpose of advances to the Board of Agriculture for Scotland—( King's Recommendation signified ) —To-morrow.—[ Colonel Leslie Wilson. ]
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. Speaker adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of 26th July.
Adjourned at the half after Twelve o'clock.