House of Commons
Wednesday, August 3, 1921
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Stirlingshire and Falkirk Water Order Confirmation Bill,
"to confirm a Provisional Order, under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Stirlingshire and Falkirk Water," presented by Mr MUNRO; read the First time; and ordered (under Section 9 of the Act) to be read a Second time upon Thursday, 11th August, and to be printed. [Bill 198.]
National Debt
Return ordered, "showing for each financial year, commencing the 1st day of April, from 1875 to 1921, inclusive:—
(1) The total amount of dead-weight Debt outstanding on the 1st day of April; the amounts which were made available in each year to 1920–21, inclusive, for reduction of Debt, distinguishing the sums expressly provided for service of the Debt, the Old Sinking Fund, and miscellaneous receipts; the gross amount of Debt redeemed; the amount of Debt created; and the net increase or decrease of Debt in the year;
(2) A similar statement in respect of other capital liabilities;
(3) A similar statement in respect of the aggregate gross liabilities of the State."—[ Mr. Hilton Young. ]
Imperial Revenue (Collection and Expenditure) (Great Britain and Ireland)
Return ordered, "relating to Imperial Revenue (Collection and Expenditure) (Great Britain and Ireland) for the year ending the 31st day of March, 1921 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 239, of Session 1920)."—[ Mr. Hilton Young. ]
Revenue and Expenditure (England, Scotland, and Ireland)
Return ordered, "showing, for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1921 (1) the amount contributed by England, Scotland, and Ireland, respectively, to the Revenue collected by the Imperial officers; (2) the Expenditure on English, Scottish, and Irish services met out of such Revenue; and (3) the balances of Revenue contributed by England, Scotland, and Ireland, respectively, which are available for Imperial Expenditure (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 245, of-Session 1920)."—[ Mr. Hilton Young. ]
Colonial Stock Act, 1900
Copy ordered, of Treasury List of Colonial Stocks in respect of which the provisions of the Act are for the lime being complied with.—[ Mr. Hilton Young. ]
Persons in Receipt of Poor Law Relief (England and Wales)
Copy ordered, of statement "of the number of Persons in receipt of Poor Law Relief in England and Wales on the night of the 1st day of January, 1921 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 191, of Session 1920)."—[ Sir Alfred Mond. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
Government Staffs and Offices
Foreign Office
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the abolition of the office of historical adviser to the Foreign Office is included in the list of economies which his Department proposes to make in reply to the Treasury Circular?
The answer is in the negative. I explained the need for this appointment at the present time in my reply to the hon. Member for Wood Green on the 20th ultimo, and it would in my opinion be false economy to fail to provide for it.
Do the Foreign Office also appoint a geographical adviser?
No, not specially.
Admiralty
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty when the staff of the Admiralty headquarters office will be down to the pre-War standard if the proposed rate of reduction is adhered to?
I hope that by the end of 1922–23 all temporary staff will have been reduced, except that engaged on the issue of prize money, war medals and clasps. As regards the permanent staff, I do not think that in the interests of efficiency a reduction to the actual pre-War figures would be possible. Apart from the expansion of the naval staff, the development of all technical and experimental services due to the introduction of new weapons and forms of defence has involved an increase at headquarters which inevitably in all branches reflects the increasing complexity of modern warfare.
Are we to understand it is necessary to retain thousands of temporary officials in the Admiralty until the end of 1922 or 1923?
No, Sir. Answers I have given during the last two days have shown that we are reducing the staff by a thousand in the course of this year, and 15 per cent, of the residue will be reduced before the end of the next financial year. What I said was that practically the whole of the temporary staff will be gone before the end of 1922–23.
Is it the definite policy of the Admiralty to maintain permanently a larger headquarter staff at the Admiralty than in 1914?
I have explained that the much greater complexity of the work and its expansion does necessitate that.
Have we not won the War?
Employment Exchanges
asked the Minister of Labour what is the estimated capital value of the sites and buildings now used by the Government for Employment Exchanges; and what is the total annual cost in respect of staff and maintenance charges of such exchanges?
As the reply is necessarily lengthy, perhaps my hon. Friend will permit me to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I will also, if I may, deal with the question of employment exchange staff in the discussion on the Ministry of Labour Estimates tomorrow.
May I ask whether, in view of the improvement in employment, the right hon. Gentleman has been able to reduce the staff and get rid of any of the buildings?
I am making out a detailed statement to-morrow, but meantime I may say the peak unemployment figure was reached on the 30th June, and since then it has declined. I took staff on on a weekly basis. In this month I have reduced 3,000, and I hope to get rid of several thousand more before the end of the month.
Will this mean a diminution of the temporary buildings?
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will read my reply. I am making a further statement to-morrow.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to-morrow to make a statement as to what reduction he is proposing generally in reply to the Circular?
I have already said I have reduced 3,000 in one month as a result of the fall in unemployment. I am making a further statement to-morrow.
The following is the answer:
I have consulted the First Commissioner of Works, who informs me that it is not practicable to give the estimated capital value of the sites and buildings now used for Employment Exchanges. The great majority of the buildings are hired or leased. This applies to the buildings taken for the purposes of the Labour Exchanges Act, 1909, and to the large number of temporary premises which have been taken to meet the requirements arising out of the Unemployment Insurance Acts. The abnormal unemployment which has been prevalent since the Unemployment Insurance Act of 1920 came into operation has rendered it necessary to take many sets of premises over and above estimated normal requirements for the purposes of the Unemployment Insurance Acts. These additional temporary hirings are being given up as employment improves. The total amount of rent payable during the current financial year in respect of buildings used for employment exchange purposes in Great Britain is estimated at £190,000. This estimate includes rent payable for buildings specially hired in connection with the increased unemployment resulting from the coal stoppage and the general industrial depression. It does not, however, include the rental value of certain Crown buildings which are utilised for employment exchange work. The estimated cost of maintenance of all employment exchange buildings in Great Britain for the current financial year is £80,000.
I have not been able, in the time at my disposal, to obtain comparable figures in respect of employment exchange buildings in Ireland. The provision made in the Estimates for 1921–22 for the staff of the Employment Exchange Service (Divisional Offices and Exchanges) was £2,499,442, the provision for Great Britain being £2,309,641, and for Ireland £189,801. In addition, a Supplementary Estimate for this service of £850,000 has been presented to the House for extra staff found to be necessary to administer unemployment benefit during the past months to the unprecedented number of persons unemployed owing to the coal stoppage and the industrial depression generally. As is indicated in the Supplementary Estimate referred to, approximately £24,000,000 was disbursed in unemployment benefit—to persons entitled thereto by Statute—from 1st April to 21st July, 1921, in excess of the normal. As my hon. Friend is doubtless aware, however, the Exchequer receives an Appropriation in Aid from the Unemployment Fund each year in pursuance of the Unemployment Insurance Acts towards the cost of administering unemployment insurance. In 1921–22 it is estimated that this sum will be £3,250,000.
Women (Promotion)
asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the fact that Section 68 of the Report of the Civil Service National Whitley Council recommended that special efforts should be made to utilise the abilities of women already in the service in the recruitment of women for the administrative and executive classes, the Government will undertake to reject the policy suggested in Section VI (35) of the third interim Report of the Lytton Committee that women who have been serving as junior administrative assistants shall be offered only an opportunity to compete for the lower clerical posts, especially as these women have been led to believe for the past 18 months that they would have a chance of entering the higher classes?
Paragraph 35 of the Third Interim Report of Lord Lytton's Committee does not conflict with paragraph 68 of the Report of the Reorganisation Committee of the Civil Service National Whitley Council. It provides that certain women who omitted to compete in the last clerical class competition should have a further opportunity of so competing; but they will still be eligible to compete for such vacancies in higher posts as may subsequently be available to be filled under the draft Regulations (Command Paper 1116).
Overseas Settlement Office
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why the staff of the Overseas Settlement Office has increased from 81, costing £21,430, last year, to 91, costing £25,575, this year, exclusive of bonus?
I have been asked to reply to this question. The increase in the staff of the Overseas Settlement Office was necessitated by the increase in the work connected with the Government schemes for assisting settlement overseas. I invite my hon. Friend's attention to Part II of the Report of the Overseas Settlement Committee for the year ended 31st December, 1920 (Cmd. 1134). Of the increased expenditure of £4,145, £1,050 is accounted for by the transfer of the salary of the vice-chairman, one of the assistant secretaries of the Colonial Office, from sub-head A of the Vote for the Colonial Office to the sub-head C.1 (Overseas Settlement) of the Vote. The real increase of expenditure is, therefore, only £3,095.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there has been less oversea travel, fewer schemes and less assistance to men, and therefore less work for the Department, although the staff has been increased?
I cannot agree with that conclusion.
Air Ministry (Central Editing Section)
asked the Secretary of State for Air the date when Air Vice-Marshal J. F. A. Higgins, C. B., D. S. O., A. F. C., was put in charge of the central editing section; the cost to the country since the institution of the office; and whether some more suitable and more onerous duties could be found for the officer in charge?
Air Vice-Marshal Higgins was placed in charge of the central editing section on the 17th January, 1921, and the cost of the section, since its institution, is about £1,350. My right hon. Friend cannot admit the implication contained in the last part of the question. The production of training and other text books, embodying the principles of air warfare as evolved during the War, is a work of great importance and responsibility. A list of the books already produced, and those in preparation, will be sent to the hon. Member.
What are the exact qualifications the Air Vice-Marshal has for this position?
I am afraid I cannot supply the hon. Member with that information. Perhaps he will put a question down.
Where is the Air Minister, to whom this question is addressed?
I cannot say where he is, but I have no doubt he is engaged on urgent business of importance.
Overseas Trade Department
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether important reductions in his Department have recently been made or are contemplated; what is their nature; how far do they meet the recommendations of the recent Departmental Committee; and whether there is any intention to publish the Report of that Committee?
I have been asked to reply. Proposals are under consideration involving a very substantial reduction on the provision made in the current Estimates for the headquarters staff of the Department. The reduction would be secured by a re-organisation of certain branches of the work, coupled with a substantial decrease in the number of officers in the various grades. The scheme has been formulated after consultation with the Advisory Committee of the Department and in conformity with their recommendations. As regards the last part of the question, I woud refer my hon. Friend to the reply given by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to the hon. and gallant Member for Leith on the 25th July.
Peace Treaties
Turkey
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government retained a sum of money representing the price of the two Turkish Dreadnoughts requisitioned by this country; and, if so, what is the exact sum of money and what is being done with the same?
I must apologise to the hon. Member. This question has been transferred from another Department, and I fear that there has been some gap in the communications.
supplied the following answer: Owing to the outbreak of war between Turkey and this country no payment was made to the Turkish Government in respect of the two warships in question; certain sums were, however, paid by His Majesty's Government to the contractors and to holders of Turkish Treasury Bills issued to pay for the ships. The amount which would have been payable to the Turkish Government if Turkey had remained at peace with this country would have been a matter for negotiation between His Majesty's Government and the Turkish Government. As the sums which would have been paid to Turkey were never issued from the Exchequer, the last part of the question does not arise.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the French Government have already voted a sum of money to be used in making advances to French subjects who have claims against the Turkish Government; and, if so, what is the amount so voted?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The second part of the question consequently does not arise.
Bulgaria
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his Majesty's Government has not adopted the clearing office scheme with Bulgaria pursuant to Section 3 of the Treaty of Neuilly-sur-Seine, and has instead referred holders of Bulgarian securities to the Bulgarian Government for the settlement of all claims; what assistance is given by His Majesty's Government to such holders for the enforcement of their claims for arrears of interest; whether an arrangement made by the Council of Foreign Bondholders for the liquidation of such arrears and of drawn bonds in French francs is binding on all English holders; and whether this arrangement represents the maximum which English holders can expect to recover?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Under the Treaty of Peace with Bulgaria the property, rights, and interests in this country of Bulgarian nationals are charged with payments of amounts due in respect of claims by British nationals with regard to their property, rights, and interests in Bulgaria or debts owing to them by Bulgarian nationals. Amounts due in respect of interest and capital in Bulgarian Government loans are not entitled to the benefit of this charge. His Majesty's Government are ready to give such assistance as lies in their power to holders of Bulgarian Government securities, and His Majesty's Minister in Sofia has, in fact, assisted the Council of Foreign Bondholders in their negotiations with the Bulgarian authorities. I am not aware what are the terms of the arrangement between the Council and the Bulgarian Government and consequently am not in a position to advise as regards the last two parts of the question.
Reparation (Seamen's Claims)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that many seamen and others who have lodged claims through the Reparation Claims Department are in a state of penury and distress; whether a sum of £198,000 has been received under the German Reparation Recovery Act up to 18th July, 1921; and, if so, whether a beginning can be made in the payment of grants to those who had been led to believe that the first moneys received from the German Government would be placed to the claims of seamen who had been torpedoed or injured during the War?
A number of claims in respect of loss or damage caused by enemy action have been lodged with the Reparation Claims Department by applicants who are stated to be in financial straits. As regards the rest of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. and gallant Member for Leith by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on the 20th June. I am sending him a copy.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these men carried on in war amid unprecedented danger, and repeatedly volunteered for service after being torpedoed, and is it fair that they should suffer now in the days of peace? Is he also aware that the Prime Minister said in reply to a deputation that the claims of these men must come before any indemnity is paid for war expenses?
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Government received millions of pounds for German reparation steamers, and will he not ask the Treasury to grant a proportion of that money to satisfy the claims of these sailors who did such work during the War?
Most of the points in the two supplementary questions have been answered in the answer given by the Treasury to which I have referred. In so far as they are not covered a fresh question should be addressed to the Treasury and not to the Board of Trade.
Is it not a fact that the answer given to me stated that not even the money which is in our hands could be made available for people suffering distress owing to the action of the enemy during the War?
If my hon. and gallant Friend refers to the answer, I do not think that he will find that that is so.
National Expenditure (Treasury Circular)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state approximately the amount of reduction anticipated in the forthcoming year in the Estimates of his Department; and what reply he has sent to the Treasury inquiries on this point?
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether a reply has been sent to the Treasury Circular asking for a reduction in the Estimates for the next financial year; and to what extent it has been found possible to promise reductions?
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether, following the lines of the recent Treasury Order, he can give any indication as to a contemplated reduction of the staff of his Department during the next 12 months; and whether he is able to state roughly the number which it may be possible to dispense with, together with the approximate saving of cost to the country?
asked the Minister of Labour whether, following the lines of the recent Treasury Order, he can give any indication as to a contemplated reduction of the staff of his Department during the next 12 months; and whether he is able to state roughly the number which it may be possible to dispense with, together with the approximate saving of cost to the country?
asked the Minister of Labour what economies are contemplated in the Estimates for his Department for 1922–23?
asked the Minister of Health whether, following the lines of the recent Treasury Order, he can give any indication as to a contemplated reduction of the staff of his Department 3uring the next 12 months; whether he is able to state roughly the number which it may be possible to dispense with, together with the approximate saving of cost to the country?
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether a reply has been sent to the Treasury Circular; and, if so, in what terms?
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has been able to comply with the request of the Treasury Circular asking for a reduction in the Estimates for the forthcoming year?
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether a reply has been sent to the Treasury circular; and, if so, in what terms?
asked the Attorney-General whether a reply has been sent to the Treasury Circular asking for a reduction in the Estimates for the next financial year; and to what extent it has been found possible to promise reductions?
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he can state approximately the amount of reduction anticipated in the forthcoming year in the Estimates in his Department; and what reply he has sent to the Treasury's inquiries on this point?
asked the Minister of Transport whether a reply has been sent to the Treasury Circular asking for a reduction in the Estimates for the next financial year; and to what extent it has been found possible to promise reductions?
With the permission of the hon. Members concerned, I will reply at the same time to all these questions. I regret that I am not in a position to add anything to the answers which I gave yesterday and on Monday to questions on the same subject.
Can my hon. Friend state a date on which he will be able to give us this information?
I am afraid that I cannot foretell at this moment.
Can the hon. Gentleman promise to issue a return during the Prorogation of Parliament, so that we may have some information on this subject before Parliament meets?
That has clearly a bearing on the answer given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and if any further answer is required a specific question should be put to my right hon. Friend.
Am I to understand from the answer that in the case of all these Departments no replies have yet been received, and that it is not possible to indicate which of them are able to make a reply?
Oh, no! The Noble Lord would be quite wrong to understand that. I do not think that any of these questions relate to the business of any particular Department, but if any particular Department is in the Noble Lord's mind, I should be glad to reply to that.
Are we to understand that the hon. Gentleman has taken upon himself to answer for all these Departments, and that none of them has yet sent any reply?
No, Sir, not at all. The great majority of them have replied; in fact all have but a very few.
Is it not possible to make those replies public?
No, Sir, for the reasons I have already given.
Are we to take it that the pledge still stands that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will make a statement before the House rises?
I have nothing to add to the answers given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in regard to that.
Eastern Siberia
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information to the effect that the new republic in the district of Vladivostock and the non-Russian population generally have requested the Japanese Government to indefinitely postpone their evacuation of that area, owing to apprehensions that if the Japanese retire the territory will be overrun by the Bolshevik forces and security for life and property destroyed?
His Majesty's Government are not aware that any party in Eastern Siberia has requested the Japanese Government to postpone the evacuation of its troops from that country.
Opium Cultivation (China)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Government can give any information as to the position of opium in China at the present time; whether the Chinese Government undertook to put down the cultivation of opium in China when we gave up the export from India; whether it is the fact that great cultivation is being carried on in many Chinese provinces and that smuggling of native opium into Shanghai and Hong Kong is taking place; and what does the Government propose to do to get China to carry out her treaty obligations?
Papers are now being prepared for submission to Parliament showing the present position of opium cultivation in China. It is the case that China undertook to put down cultivation as the condition on which the export of opium from India was stopped. At that time opium growing in China seemed to have been satisfactorily suppressed, but I regret to say that recent reports indicate a marked revival in certain provinces, and there is evidence of smuggling of Chinese opium into Hong Kong on a considerable scale. No doubt it is also smuggled into Shanghai. Strong protests have been repeatedly addressed to the Chinese Government, but have hitherto remained entirely unheeded. The hon. Member is doubtless aware that the League of Nations are now actively interesting themselves in the whole opium question.
Now that the real facts are known, is it not time to consider a revision of our policy rather than run the risk of irritating China by trying to force her to carry out what she is obviously unable to carry out?
I hope the policy will not be changed.
Will the question be referred to the Government of India?
It is in the hands of the League of Nations, and I think that is very satisfactory.
Royal Navy
"Hood" Class (Contractors' Claims)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can now state how much the contractors claim to have spent on work upon the three sister ships of His Majesty's Ship "Hood," the construction of which was begun, and which was afterwards stopped?
The following amounts have so far been claimed by the contractors for the three ships of the "Hood" class:
The final claims for H.M.S. "Anson" have not yet been received from the contractors. The figures given relate only to the main contracts for hulls, machinery, and electrical gear.
Would it be possible for the hon. Gentleman to inform me, when I say contractors, as to the other outstanding amounts, apart from the sums he has mentioned?
The hon. and gallant gentleman had better give me notice of that question.
Officers' Marriage Allowance
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether any further consideration has been given by the Board of Admiralty to the question of providing a marriage allowance for naval officers, commissioned and warrant; and, if so, what decision, if any, has been arrived at?
I would ask the hon. and gallant Member to await the statement which I hope to make on this subject during the discussion on the Navy Estimates this afternoon.
Can the hon. Gentleman inform me whether in the case of married officers any compensation will be paid on account of the fact that the children's allowance was arbitrarily taken away in 1919?
I will consider that point.
Shall we have an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon that subject?
Yes.
Cordite Manufacture
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty on whose expert advice a factory is to be erected in Dorsetshire for bleaching cotton for cordite manufacture, and will he give separately the amounts proposed to be expended on land, water rights, buildings, and plant; will he state the quantity of water available and whether it has been analysed, and if so, the percentage of hardness and also the average weight of cotton per day proposed to be treated; and will he say if he is aware that with existing plants an absolute guarantee can be given to extract every particle of foreign matter from the cotton?
In reply to the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Rossendale on the 20th July. No expenditure on land or water rights is involved. The estimated expenditure on buildings is £46,000 and on plant £48,000. Two million gallons of water a day are available; this can be increased to 3,000,000 gallons if necessary, and is ample for all purposes. It has been frequently analysed, the degree of hardness being 26 parts per 100,000. The amount of cotton to be treated per day will vary according to the requirements of the factory, the output being regulated, together with that of other raw materials, to produce the amount of cordite that may be required. Although the cotton may leave the mill clean it is impossible, without considerable further expenditure, to ensure that it reaches the factory at Holton Heath in precisely the same condition; and, as pointed out in the reply to the hon. Member for Moss Side on the 27th July, the essential advantage which will be gained from the plant at Holton Heath is that final purification will take place immediately before nitration, so that the cotton will not be handled in transit subsequent to the cleansing process.
Is it not a fact that the policy of the Admiralty was really brought about by the disasters in the Navy to the "Bulwark," the "Temaraire," and the "Vanguard"?
Yes, that is so.
Is there any reason why the bleaching plant should not have been established in Lancashire, nearer the source of supply of the raw material?
That question was answered the other day.
Great Yarmouth Port Commissioners (Claim)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty why the Accountant-General of the Navy does not reply to communications addressed to him by important bodies in the country; is he aware that he has received four separate letters from the Port and Harbour Commissioners of Great Yarmouth in the course of the past year, and to not one of them has he replied or even acknowledged; and what is the explanation of this want of businesslike methods?
The original claim of the Great Yarmouth Port and Haven Commissioners was received in the Department of the Accountant-General of the Navy in August last, but it was necessary to refer it to another Department of the Admiralty to obtain reports from the Fleet on the subject-matter of the claim. It is regretted that the subsequent letters from the Commissioners were not acknowledged, as is the ordinary business rule, and steps are being taken to prevent any such oversight in the future. It is unfortunately the case that the papers containing the claim have been mislaid, thus delaying a settlement, but steps are now being taken to obtain a duplicate in order that the case may be reconstructed and disposed of.
May I now report that answers will be given within a reasonable time?
I certainly hope so. I apologise to my hon. Friend for the delays.
Artificer Apprentices
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many boy artificers are appointed to the Navy yearly; what are the conditions for such appointments or nominations; if any places are given to the public elementary schools of the country, or if they are reserved for secondary or other schools; and if he will say how many vacancies are allotted to the London Education Committee for the schools of London?
The number of artificer apprentices of all classes entered each year is at present 214. The conditions of entry are contained in a pamphlet, which I am sending to the hon. Member. The answer to the last part of the question is, that no places are given to, and no vacancies are reserved for, any particular description of school; neither are any vacancies allotted to any education committee for the schools of their area.
Ex-Service Men
Slater's Assistant, Oswestry
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that Mr. Jackson, who served for 12 years in the South Staffordshire Regiment before the late War, and also from 1915 to 1919 in the Royal Engineers, being once wounded, having a wife and large family dependent on him, obtained employment as a slater's assistant with Messrs. Butler Brothers, builders and contractors, of Wolverhampton, on the Oswestry housing scheme; that the bricklayers employed on the scheme objected to his employment, as he had to use a trowel, and threatened to go on strike; and that the employers, as the scheme was nearly finished, gave way and dismissed Mr. Jackson; if so, whether the Ministry of Labour took any steps in the matter, either to obtain employment for this man elsewhere or to settle the dispute, and with what result; and what is) the present position of Mr. Jackson?
I am informed that Mr. Jackson is not enrolled under any of the Government training schemes for ex-service men. He was employed on the Oswestry housing scheme as a slater's labourer, and at one stage of the operations was put on with another workman to do work which the bricklayers claimed should be done by craftsmen, according to the rules of the trade union. On their objecting to Mr. Jackson being engaged on this work, employment was found for him on the scheme by the employers as a labourer, and he continued to be so employed until the completion of the job on which he was engaged. I have reason to believe that since then Mr. Jackson has found further employment. I do not understand that there was any discimination against Mr. Jackson on the ground of his being an ex-soldier.
Severely Disabled Men (Employment)
asked the Minister of Labour if he is yet in a position to state when the Report of the Committee on the Employment of Disabled Ex-soldiers will be presented to the House?
I regret that I am not yet in a position to make any definite statement with regard to the publication of the Report of the Committee on the Employment of Severely Disabled Ex-Service Men. I would, however, refer my Noble Friend to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for the Rushcliffe Division on the 6th July, from which it will be seen that the Government is prepared, under certain conditions, to give assistance to the Central Committee of the Lord Roberts' Memorial Workshops so as to enable them to keep open their centres for the employment of disabled ex-service men. An instalment of grant has already, in fact, been made.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Report was presented to him many months ago? Why is he holding it up?
I have said I am not yet in a position to say what I propose to do with it. In the meantime I have, with the sanction of the Government, approached Lord Roberts' Workshop people and have made a grant to them.
But why are you holding up a Report which was presented to you some months ago?
Building Trade
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is in a position to state what is the present position of the ex-service man generally under the Government scheme for their employment in the building trade; and whether any steps are being taken to train more men as plasterers and bricklayers in view of the prevailing shortage in these trades?
21,355 ex-service men have now applied for training, and the number at work is increasing, though very slowly. I am glad to say that the National Federation of Building Trades Employers at their meeting last week at Sheffield re-affirmed their obligation to these unemployed ex-service men who have come forward, and decided to proceed forthwith to put into operation the arrangements which they have made. These arrangements will apply to the training both of plasterers and bricklayers as well as of slaters and tilers.
Liverpool Docks (Boy Labour)
asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the report recently issued with regard to the conditions of boy labour in the docks at Liverpool, which has brought to light the conditions under which boy scalers are employed, the Government proposes to take any action with a view to effecting some improvement in the conditions at present existing?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. As I promised the Noble Lord in replying to his previous question of the 31st May on this subject, I have had' inquiries made into the conditions under which boys are employed in this work at the ports, and the reports which I have received show that, on account of the nature of the work, there is great need of provisions for securing the health and welfare of the boys. The work lies mainly outside the present limits of the Factory Act, and the necessary legislation is under consideration.
Has not the right hon. Gentleman been considering for many years the necessity for an alteration of the Factory Acts? How much longer are we to wait for an improvement in the Acts?
Unemployment
Benefit (Miners' Claims)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he has yet news as to the position of the 100 men formerly at work at the Jamage Pit who have been refused unemployment benefit?
The position as regards these workpeople is that the appeal which was lodged on their behalf has been referred to a Court of Referees which sat yesterday. The Court has recommended that the claim should be disallowed on the ground that the workpeople are still unemployed by reason of a stoppage of work due to a trade dispute. It is, of course, open to the association of which the applicants are members to appeal to the Umpire if they so desire.
Is it not the fact that these seams are closed down permanently and not as the result of the strike? In that case, are these people not entitled to the unemployment benefit?
The hon. and gallant Member is really arguing the case. The machinery laid down provides that each case shall be dealt with in the first instance by the Insurance Officer, who may refer it to the Referees, and, finally, it may go to the Umpire. I have no discretion. I can simply follow the Act.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these people have now been out of work for a month? How much longer will it be before they get the Umpire's decision?
I will do all I can to expedite the decision
Then there is no hope for these people.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that a number of ironstone miners who worked at Brymbo stone collieries near Newcastle, Staffs, have been left unemployed and are yet refused unemployment benefit; that these men are in their own union, not the Miners' Federation; and that they had no connection with the dispute in that industry: and will he have inquiries made so that they may obtain justice?
I am informed that certain ironstone miners, formerly employed at the Brymbo stone collieries, ceased work on the 31st March in sympathy with the miners; and their claims to unemployment benefit were disallowed in respect of the period prior to 4th July, on the ground that up to this date they were unemployed by reason of a stoppage of work due to this dispute. The Insurance officer held, however, that the disqualification ceased to apply as from 4th July, and benefit is being paid accordingly.
Building Trade
asked the Minister of Labour how many men are now unemployed in the building trades; whether he can state how many of these are ex-service men; and what is the cause of the above unemployment?
At 15th July, the latest date for which figures are available, the number of men in all branches of the building trades whose unemployment books were lodged at the Employ- ment Exchanges on account of unemployment was 132,271. Of these, about 42,000 were skilled, about 69,000 were unskilled, and the remainder were operatives, skilled and unskilled, of subsidiary trades. The total number of bricklayers included in these figures was 3,428, of plasterers 440, and of slaters and tilers 542. I am unable to state how many ex-service men are included. I am not aware that this unemployment is attributable to any specific cause other than the continued slackness of trade during July.
Does slackness of trade mean lack of orders for house building, and is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Minister of Health has informed us that the building trade is fully occupied for two years?
It has nothing to do with housing. It is partly due to lack of material, and is further partly due to the fact that all over the country we have little groups of men who have finished a job and have not gone on to another.
Are we to understand that these men are drawing unemployment pay, and would it not be better to have them employed in housing?
If they are entitled under the Act to unemployment pay they are drawing it.
Girls (Clerical Work)
asked the Minister of Labour whether a circular emanating from his Ministry has been sent to business firms in London again reminding them that the body responsible for the circular have a number of girls who are seeking employment and whom they desire to place as clerks or in similar capacities; and whether, in view of the large number of disabled ex-service men who are looking for work and the scarcity of female domestic help, the circular in question was issued with his approval?
My hon. and gallant Friend refers to a letter which has been circulated by the secretary of the Employment Committee of Headmistresses of Secondary Schools. This committee, which consists of delegates from the Association of Headmistresses, works in co-operation with the London (Central) Advisory Committee for Juvenile Employment, by assisting that committee to give advice and assistance on questions of employment to such girls between 14 and 18 years of age as have attended secondary schools. The Headmistresses Employment Committee has instructed its officers to put before employers, verbally and by letter, the special qualifications for employment possessed by secondary school girls. There is no evidence to support the suggestion that the introduction of these girls to clerical vacancies has in any way conflicted with the policy of doing everything possible to obtain employment for ex-service men. As regards the question of the scarcity of domestic servants, the girls who apply to this committee are not, I imagine, usually available for this occupation.
Is it not a fact that this Association of Headmistresses, whoever they are, send out their circulars from a hotel in the Strand which is in the occupation of the Ministry of Labour?
I have the letter here, and I see that it is headed "Ministry of Labour." Without going into the merits of this particular document—I need not express any opinion upon it—I may say that the moment I saw it, I gave orders that no document must go out headed "Ministry of Labour" which I or my responsible officers do not see.
Does it follow that the public bear the expense of all this work?
I cannot answer that. Perhaps the hon. and gallant Member will put a question down.
London Trades
asked the Minister of Labour the names of the three principal trades in which there is the greatest unemployment for males and females in the London metropolitan area; and what steps his Department are taking in order to reduce these figures?
The three trades in which there is greatest unemployment amongst males in the London metropolitan area are building trades, engineering and ironfounding, and dock labour. Amongst females the greatest unemployment is in hotel, boarding house, and restaurant service; in dressmaking, millinery, shirt and blouse trades; and in the wholesale and retail distributive trades. Every possible endeavour is being made through the Employment Exchanges and other branches of the Ministry to find work for as many as possible. During the last month for which figures are available—that ending on 3rd June—I am glad to say that over 10,000 persons in the London area were placed in employment.
Could the right hon. Gentleman say why these girls who are unemployed in hotel and restaurant service do not go into domestic service, where there is a great demand?
I think my hon. and learned Friend knows that I have had a list prepared of the women on the register of unemployed who seem to be available and suitable for domestic service. When they come along for unemployment benefit their attention is called to these vacancies, and if they unreasonably refuse to take them their case is referred to the Referee, and then to the Umpire, to see whether or not they are entitled to benefit.
How many cases are there where women have actually refused domestic service who are fitted for it, and have had their unemployment pay stopped?
If a woman has no encumbrances—and my hon. and learned Friend would not wish that we should press domestic service on women with little children to look after—broadly speaking, if she has no encumbrances, and refuses to take a suitable vacancy in domestic service, she is not entitled to benefit.
Does the same state of things exist in the building trade in other parts of the country as in London?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will refer to the answer which I gave earlier about the total number of unemployed in the building trade.
asked the Minister of Labour whether there has been any reduction in unemployment in London since the settlement of the coal dispute both for male and female workers; and will he give the highest figures recorded in his Department for London during recent weeks, and the comparable figures for to-day?
The live register of employment exchanges reached its highest point at 27th May with 133,678 males and 63,890 females in the London County Council area; and 197,777 males and 94,834 females in the Greater London area. At 22nd July, the latest date for which figures are available, there were 132,293 males and 41,701 females on the live registers in the London County Council area and 192,992 males and 63,492 females in the Greater London area. As regards a reduction in unemployment since the settlement of the coal dispute, my hon. Friend will be glad to know that there has been a decrease of 12,735 in the London County Council area, and of 19,681 in the Greater London area, since 30th June.
Census
asked the Minister of Health whether, as stated in the Press, a monster book is in preparation in his Department explaining the nature of the occupations entered by the public on their Census papers?
No, Sir. A series of notes upon occupations is in course of preparation at the request of the Registrar-General, by the Ministry of Labour in co-operation with the Home Office and other Departments and authorities possessing the requisite technical knowledge, to assist the Census staff in classifying the descriptions, technical and otherwise, under which the occupations are returned on the Census Schedules. A saving of the expense of the vast number of special inquiries that would otherwise have to be made is thereby effected.
Housing
Industrial and Rural Areas
asked the Minister of Health for what reason he is giving a precedence to large industrial areas over rural areas in the Government housing scheme, seeing that an increase of the rural population would ensure a greater supply of home produced food being available for the inhabitants of Great Britain?
A limitation having been put on the number of houses to be provided under the Government housing scheme, it has been necessary to consider the relative claims of rural and industrial areas to the limited house provision at my disposal. I think it will be generally recognised that more overcrowding prevails, and that other health conditions are more unfavourable in large industrial areas than in rural areas, and, while I am aware that there is a deficiency of houses in rural areas, I have had, under the circumstances, to decide to give precedence to industrial areas.
Why is it confined to industrial areas, when houses are required in rural districts? If houses were provided in the rural districts, would it not withdraw the population from the industrial districts?
I have only a limited number of houses, and must give precedence to those places where overcrowding is worst.
Bricks
asked the Minister of Health whether the Ministry pays 90 per cent. on account of bricks in stock awaiting delivery; whether he is aware that, in Nottinghamshire, bricks are bought by the Ministry at a price which is substantially higher than the price paid by private builders; and whether the Ministry will discontinue a policy which tends to maintain the price of bricks at a higher level than they would be were large purchases of bricks not made by the Government at a higher price than that ruling in the market?
The answer to the first part of the qeustion is in the affirmative. In certain cases, owing to prices having fallen since the contracts were made, such cases as the Noble Lord refers to may arise. No fresh contracts have been made for some time past, and it is not the intention to enter into any new commitments, but I am endeavouring to reduce existing commitments as far as possible.
Tottenham Scheme
asked the Minister of Health why the State aided houses abutting on White Hart Lane, Tottenham, which were completed months ago, are still unoccupied j whether he is aware that these houses have cost over £1,300 each, and that a more commodious and substantial house was built in that region at an inclusive price of £200 in pre-War days; and if the local authority have notified the Ministry that they are unable to accept a considerable number of ex-service men as tenants owing to the high rents demanded by the Ministry?
I am informed that none of the houses being erected by the Tottenham Urban District Council at White Hart Lane are yet ready for occupation. I am unable to say what the final cost of the houses will be when completed, but on the information at present available it will not, I hope, be so high as £1,300 a house. The rents which the council propose to Charge are, in my opinion, too low, but this should not delay the letting of the houses at rents which the council think proper, as provision is made for any difference of opinion in the matter of rents to be referred to an independent tribunal.
Unemployed Workers
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that on 15th July there were registered as unemployed at the Employment Exchanges 23,923 building trade employés, including bricklayers, joiners, and plasterers; and whether he will reconsider the desirability of sanctioning further housing schemes to use their labour rather than pay unemployment benefit?
I have seen the figures of unemployment mentioned by the hon. Member, but note that the figures to which he refers are not confined to building trade employés. Even if all these men belonged to the building trade I would remind the hon. Member that, in addition to houses building under the scheme of subsidy to private builders, there are 76,000 houses now under construction by local authorities and public utility societies and about 50,000 additional houses contracted for but not even commenced. There is here an ample field for the employment of surplus labour, and there is no point in multiplying approvals for further houses, to say nothing of the effect of such a policy on prices. I would add, with regard to the 440 plasterers said to be unemployed, that at the date of the last housing return no less than 1,922 plasterers were wanted for housing schemes actually in hand.
Is the right hon. Baronet aware of the impossibility of moving labour from one part of the country to another owing to the absence of houses, and that it would be more economical to employ these men where they are rather than pay them unemployment benefit, and will he therefore reconsider sanctioning the building of houses in those districts where there is material available and men are out of work rather than pay them unemployment benefit?
I cannot agree that labour cannot be moved. If labour wanted to move it would move. I do not think it would pay us to put up houses at a very big loss in rent simply to provide employment.
How can labour move if there are no houses for it to move into?
Labour has always been able, in the building trade particularly, to find temporary lodging, and I do not believe there is any shortage of lodging accommodation.
Education (Greek and Latin)
asked the Prime Minister what action he will take on the Report of Lord Crewe's Committee, appointed by him in November, 1919, to inquire into the position to be assigned to the language, literature, and history of Ancient Greece and Rome in the educational system of the United Kingdom, and to advise as to the means by which the proper study of these subjects may be maintained and improved?
The Prime Minister has asked the President of the Board of Education and the Secretary for Scotland to consider the Report.
Will this Report be made available for those Members—probably many—who highly appreciate the action taken in this behalf?
I am under the impression that the Report is available to Members.
It is not on the Pink Paper.
I will make inquiries; I thought it was.
Will the right hon. Gentleman see that an honourable place is given to the language of the ancient Britons?
Foreign Office (Wireless News Service)
asked the Lord Privy Seal if his attention has been called to the statement that news telegrams are sent out by the British Foreign Office for circulation among Norwegian newspapers; if this is the case, by whom is the news selected, by whose authority is it transmitted, and on what Vote is the cost borne; and is there anything to indicate to the receiver or reader of these messages the source from which they are derived?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to my reply to the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland on 1st August, to which I have nothing to add.
Does any responsible official of the hon. Gentleman's Department revise the text of the messages before they are sent out?
No, I think not. The parties in charge are very trusted officials of the Foreign Office. I do not think the messages are subjected to any higher criticism before they go out.
Has the hon. Gentleman seen the suggestion that this information ought to be sent out by an agent independent of all Government control?
I have seen that.
Nationality Law
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the Imperial Conference has now approved of an Amendment of the nationality law so as to provide for the acquisition of British nationality by persons of British descent of the second and subsequent generations born abroad, subject to registration at birth and a renewal of such registration as a British subject at majority, he can assure the House that the necessary uncontentious legislation to give effect to the above decision of the Imperial Conference will be introduced at the beginning of next Session?
I have been asked to reply to this question. The Imperial Conference has agreed to recommend the proposal to the Governments of the Overseas Dominions, and, as I indicated on 21st July, an agreement on this subject ought to be come to with the Overseas Governments of the Empire before legislation is introduced in this House. Steps are being taken to obtain agreement.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a very strong feeling on this subject with regard to Britons resident abroad, and will he do everything to expedite the Conference between this country and the Dominions so as to be able to introduce legislation at the beginning of next Session which practically non-contentious?
I will endeavour to do so.
Are there any other questions affecting the law of nationality which have been brought before the Imperial Conference?
No, Sir.
Washington Conference
asked the Prime Minister whether any approximate date has yet been fixed for the Washington Conference; and whether Great Britain and Japan are urging a postponement of the gathering till the spring?
No date has yet been fixed for the Conference, and no question of postponement has been raised.
Have the British representatives at the Conference yet been chosen, and who will they be?
No. Sir.
Tuberculosis Hospital, Boston
asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the extreme urgency for local treatment of patients, a sanction given by the Ministry to the Holland County Council to purchase Norton House, Boston, for the purpose of a tuberculosis hospital was afterwards withdrawn; whether he will give the reason for the Ministry's action; whether the contract for the purchase was conpleted after the approval conveyed by the Ministry's letter of the 10th May last; whether, in consequence, the council is legally bound to go on with the purchase; and what steps, if any, he proposes to take in these circumstances?
In view of the general instructions of the Government as to economy in public expenditure, my Department has been compelled to suspend various public health schemes involving capital expenditure where an authority was not definitely committed. In the particular case referred to, sanction to a purchase which had previously been given was withdrawn, because, on the information in the possession of the Department, it appeared that the authority was not definitely committed to the purchase. It has now been ascertained that the authority is committed, and the purchase will accordingly be completed.
Asylums (Administration)
asked the Minister of Health if his attention has been called to a publication by Dr. Montague Lomax, containing grave charges of inhumanity in the administration of our asylums; and, as these charges are specific, and the alleged inhumanity was inferred rather than witnessed by Dr. Lomax, will he cause inquiries to be made as to the truth of these allegations, in order to relieve the anxiety of many of the public who have relatives confined in these institutions?
My attention has been called to the statements contained in this book, and the visiting committee of the asylum at which Dr. Lomax was employed as locum tenens, and to which he evidently refers, have already been asked by the Board of Control for their observations. As soon as these have been received, I will consider what further action is necessary.
Poplar Borough Council (Rate Collection)
asked the Minister of Health, in view of the threatened collapse of the local government system in the Borough of Poplar, the obstinate refusal to levy the rates for central purposes, and the likelihood of the finance of the borough being still more embarrassed, what steps he proposes to take to set the machinery of rate collection again in motion in the Poplar Borough Council?
I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave on this subject yesterday to the hon. Member for Dartford.
Malta (Education)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, with reference to a statement made on education in Malta, it is recognised that language is a reserved matter under the constitution, and that the responsibility of declaring what was meant by priority in which the languages shall be taught in Clause 57 still rests with the Secretary of State; and whether, in the circumstances, children of dockyard workers will receive the protection of an early, certain, and workable definition of priority?
Sub-section 6 of Section 41 of the Letters Patent prescribes that alteration of the Sections relating to language is outside the powers of the new Malta Legislature. The answer to the first part of the question is therefore in the affirmative. I think the use of the word "priority" in Section 57 (2) is clear, but if any further definition of that Section is shown to be necessary or is generally desired by the Maltese people, the Governor will, under Section 67 of Letters Patent, be able to make the required amendment by proclamation.
Airships
asked the Secretary of State for Air the approximate yearly rate of expenditure on lighter-than-air airships establishments during the present year up till 1st August last; and what has, been the yearly rate of expenditure on direct assistance to civil aviation, excluding expenditure on lighter-than-air airships, to date during the present year?
The approximate expenditure at airship establishments during the four months ended 31st ultimo was £94,000, excluding the cost of work on R.38. The yearly rate of expenditure based on this figure would therefore be £282,000. The expenditure on subsidies to civil aerial transport companies during the same period of four months was £23,000. Owing to the impending change in the method of subsidy, the yearly rate of expenditure cannot be deduced from this figure.
British Army
Defence Forces, Crown Colonies (War Medal)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that there is considerable dissatisfaction amongst the members of the defence forces of those Crown Colonies and Protectorates which are not defined as a theatre of war Army Order XX of 1918 and Army Order 301 of 1919 at the non-award of a war medal; whether it is a question of expense which is delaying a decision in the matter and, if so, whether he is aware that the Governments of the Crown Colonies and Protectorates concerned would be unlikely to raise any opposition to defraying the cost of these medals; whether the defence forces in India during the War have already received war medals; and, in any case, whether he can now state whether a decision has been reached in the matter and what it is?
As I have already stated it has been decided that, with certain specified exceptions, a war medal should not be granted for home service in the United Kingdom, and in these circumstances it would obviously be inequitable to grant what would be a home service medal to members of the defence forces of Crown Colonies and Protectorates. I am not quite clear as to what defence forces in India my hon. Friend has in mind, but so far as I am aware no members of any volunteer defence forces have received war medals unless they entered a theatre of war.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these men were not only volunteers, but were called up and embodied, and had to go out and do actual service under service conditions?
I am quite aware of that, but their service was home service.
Militia
asked the Secretary of State for War how many men have been enlisted into the reconstituted militia; how many militia battalions are at present in existence; and how many it is proposed to raise?
No enlistments have as yet been made into the reconstituted Militia. The 101 pre-War Special Reserve battalions are still technically in existence, and the number of battalions to be reconstituted is under consideration.
Is it not much more important to reconstitute these Militia regiments than to raise Territorial regiments?
It is of great importance.
Is there any considerable difference in the cost?
Territorial Army
Amalgamation of Battalions
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the long history and of the respective war records of the 6th and 7th battalions of the Manchester Regiment; whether there is any truth in the report that they are to be amalgamated, in spite of their distinctive personnels, badges, facings, recruiting areas, and traditions; whether he is aware that the East Lancashire Territorial Association is opposed to this step; why local units of later origin and less up to strength are to be allowed to preserve their identity in preference to these two famous battalions; and whether he will consult local opinion before sanctioning this proposal?
I would refer my hon. and learned Friend to the statement made on the Adjournment on 11th July last dealing with the general policy of the reduction of the surplus battalions of the Territorial Army. I am well aware of the traditions of these two battalions of the Manchester Regiment and how they are recruited, but many other battalions also with splendid war records have necessarily been affected by the reductions in the Territorial Army. As regards uniform, in service dress the two battalions wear similar dress and badges; in full dress, which is not now worn, the 6th battalion wore yellow facings and silver lace, and the 7th battalion white facings and gold lace. In ether battalions which have been amalgamated, the representative half battalions have been allowed to retain any distinctive uniform they may have worn, and that will certainly be done in this case if it is desired. There is also no objection to the amalgamated unit bearing the title "6th/7th Battalion the Manchester Regiment."
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the badges of these two regiments are entirely diferent, the badge of the 6th Manchesters being the Manchester coat of arms, and the badge of the 7th being the fleur de lys; and is he aware of the intense indignation that this proposal has caused in Manchester, and will he consent to receive a representative deputation from Manchester before he takes final action in the matter?
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of further cutting down the Territorial Force before cutting down any battalions of the Regular Army?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these two battalions—with whom my hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Hurst) and myself served in Gallipoli—showed as fine a record of service as any battalion?
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider delaying final action for, say, a month, in order to allow the local Territorial Association to submit an alternative amalgamation scheme?
I am very well aware of the magnificent war record of both these battalions, and I am quite sure my hon. and gallant Friends will sympathise with me in having to cut down the 21 surplus battalions of the Territorial Army, but it has either to be done by amalgamation or by the actual extinction of the battalions. The Territorial Association has had an opportunity of submitting a scheme; I am not sure whether they neglected to do so, or whether they said they could not do so. Some Territorial Associations have said one thing and some have said the other. It really must be taken as final that these battalions have to amalgamate. With regard to badges, each half or each two companies of the battalion can continue to wear their old badge, notwithstanding that they are amalgamated.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why it is that the 6th and 7th Manchesters have been singled out, having regard to the fact that there are several junior units in the division in the same area whose strength is no greater than that of the 6th and 7th Manchesters?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that of the 21 battalions to be reduced no fewer than three are in the County of Lancashire and two of them come within the 42nd Division—two units which are the cream of that division; and will he say why it is necessary to do this, while at the same time adding to the division other battalions that were never previously in it?
I cannot answer now all these questions within the limits of the patience of the House, but I should be glad to see hon. Members, and we can then go more fully into the reasons why the amalgamation has to take place.
May we take the last reply of the right hon. Gentleman as intimating his willingness to receive a deputation proper; and can my right hon. Friend say what is the saving estimated to be effected by this change?
Twenty-one surplus battalions means a saving of nearly £500,000 a year. With respect to a deputation, if my right hon. Friend desires, and it is generally desired, that I should receive a deputation I am not going to refuse, but I cannot hold out any hope that an alteration will be made in the plan of amalgamation.
rose —
Any further questions must be put on the Paper.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has now received the opinion of the Midlothian Territorial Association with reference to the proposed scheme for the linking up of the 7th Royal Scots; and what action he proposes to take on it?
The City of Edinburgh Territorial Force Association has agreed to the amalgamation of the 4th and 5th battalions, Royal Scots, and to the amalgamation of the 9th and 7th battalions, Royal Scots, but the Midlothian Association has written objecting to the amalgamation of the 7th battalion, Royal Scots, with the 9th battalion, Royal Scots. A reply is being sent that if the Midlothian Association cannot agree to the proposal, there is no alternative but to disband the 7th battalion, a course which I should much regret.
Did not the right hon. Gentleman say, when I asked him before, that this scheme was based upon the opinions of the Territorial Associations themselves, and does not the Midlothian Territorial Association speak with authority for the 7th Royal Scots?
Certainly the Midlothian Association does speak and has written in the sense that I have stated.
Then what becomes of the right hon. Gentleman's declaration that his scheme had the approval or consent of the Territorial Association concerned?
I think my hon. Friend misquotes me. I have always told him that these four battalions had to be got into two battalions, and the City of Edinburgh Association does agree, but the Midlothian Association at present does not agree. I hope they will agree.
Rents Restriction Act and Agriculture Act, 1920
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether the Government has considered the advisabiity of charging a fee for the consideration of applications for certificates under the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restriction) Act, that a cottage is required for the use of a man engaged in agricuture; for certificates under Section 10 (2) of the Agriculture Act, 1920, that a tenant is not cultivating his farm or holding in accordance with the rules of good husbandry; and for certificates under Section 15 of the Agriculture Act, 1920, in connection with improvements by tenants; in order that the expense should be borne by the applicant instead of by the country, and so discourage frivolous applications?
The Ministry has from time to time had under consideration the question as to whether it would be possible for a County Agricultural Committee to charge fees in the circumstances to which the hon. Member refers, but the Ministry is advised that, while the imposition of fees might be permissible in the case of applications under the Rent Restriction Act, although the matter is not free from doubt, the imposition of such fees in the case of the Sections of the Agriculture Act, 1920, referred to, would be ultra vires.
Foxes, Depredations
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been drawn to the great depredations by foxes in various districts; whether he is aware that on some poultry arms 50 per cent. of the poultry has been destroyed; and whether, in view of the desirability of encouraging poultry farming, and in the interests of farmers who cannot protect themselves, he will introduce legislation to deal with this evil?
My attention has on several occasions been drawn to the damage done by foxes to poultry farms in various districts, and I am aware that some poultry farms have suffered severely from foxes. It is customary, however, for a local hunt to pay compensation for such damage, and I cannot at present undertake to propose any fresh legislation on the subject.
Are we to understand that fox-hunting is more important than poultry farming?
No, Sir. With good will on both sides, the two can very well go on together.
League of Nations
Lithuania
asked the Lord President of the Council whether the Polish deputies who appealed to the League of Nations to secure fair treatment for the Poles in Lithuania have been compelled to resign from the Kovno Diet on account of the unpopularity of this appeal; and whether the Lithuanian delegation has declined to attend the meeting fixed by the League of Nations for the resumption of the Polish-Lithuanian negotiations?
I have no information on the first of the question. The Lithuanian delegation was not ready, it is understood, to resume negotiations with the Poles on the 25th ultimo; a resumption of the negotiations has, therefore, been arranged for 25th August, when the Lithuanian representatives will, I have been informed, be present.
Mandated Territories
asked the Lord President of the Council whether questions of detail relating to the internal administration of mandated territories will in future, by questions or otherwise, be brought before the House of Commons?
Questions of detail of this kind are propertly discussed in the legislature of the country to whose Government the mandate over the particular territory involved has been entrusted.
Does my right hon. Friend look forward to a series of ques- tions regarding all the details of the administration of Palestine and Mesopotamia?
So long as the hon. Baronet is in the House, yes.
Divorce (South Africa)
asked the Attorney-General if he is aware that an Englishman residing in South Africa, but preserving his English domicile, may get a divorce in South Africa by reason of the desertion of his wife, and that the second wife, if an Englishwoman, of such a man who married again in South Africa after two years of further residence there will not be married according to English law; and can he hold out any hope of legislation to remedy this?
It would appear that if the marriage took place in South Africa, and the desertion of the wife is malicious, a divorce can be granted in the circumstances mentioned in the first part of the question, and that such a divorce would not be recognised as valid in England, with the consequences mentioned in the second part of the question. The last part of the question is hardly, I think, for the. It is an alteration of South African law that is apparently contemplated by the question.
Bacon and Lard
asked the President of the Board of Trade if any settlement has yet been arrived at with respect to the claims on the Food Ministry arising out of the recontrol of bacon and lard on the 9th August, 1919; and, if not, what is the present position with regard to this matter?
I cannot add anything to the replies given to the hon. and gallant Member on 19th July and to the hon. Member for Harrow on 25th July.
Consumers' Council
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the nominated body which was called the Consumers' Council is still in existence; and, if not, will he state the total amount paid to its members for subsistence allowance and travelling expenses from its inception in 1918 to the date of disbandment?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and to the second part is £4,688.
Cost of Living
asked the President of the Board of Trade if, in view of the financial condition of the country, he will have careful examination made into the list of articles which are comprised in the scale of cost of living, especially in view of the number of substitutes which are obtainable and the change in the standard of living?
I have been asked to reply. The index number relating to the cost of living, which is prepared in the Ministry of Labour, is designed to show the average increase in the cost of maintaining unchanged the pre-War standard of living of the working classes. In calculating this index number, therefore, it would not be appropriate to take account of changes in the standard of living. As regards the compilation of a different index number, such as my hon. Friend has in mind, I am afraid sufficient data are not at present available.
Has the Special Committee of Inquiry to which the hon. Gentleman has referred in replies to me on two or three occasions been set up?
What I said to the hon. Member was that the report would be considered, and that after that the matter would be dealt with.
Has the report been considered?
The report has just been received. It has not yet been considered.
Government Expenditure
Committee of Business Men
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is the intention of the Government to appoint a committee of business men to advise on the question of Governmental expenditure?
The Cabinet have come to the conclusion that, in the examination of the replies of Departments to the Treasury Circular of 13th May last, it would be of great assistance to them to have the advice of a special committee of business men, in dealing with the reduction of expenditure.
The composition of the Committee will be announced in due course. The Chairman will be the present Minister of Transport (Sir Eric Geddes) who, as the House knows, is resigning office almost immediately. He has undertaken to give his whole time to the task until the end of the year.
Is the Committee also to have under consideration questions of policy as well as questions of administration?
Questions of policy will, of course, remain for the Cabinet to decide, but it would, no doubt, be within the purview of the Committee to say what a particular policy would cost.
Will this Committee sit in public, and issue its report, and will the report be laid before this House, or is the Committee only for the secret information of the Prime Minister?
The Committee which the Cabinet has decided to set up is to report to the Cabinet, and accordingly it will not sit in public.
Will any Members of this House, which is commonly described by the Government as a "business assembly," be included in the personnel of this Committee, and will persons who have had enormous experience of guiding great labour organisations in the country find a place on the Committee?
I cannot say anything to the House to-day as to the composition of the Committee other than what I have said, but in due course I will let the House know what it is.
When will this Committee be set up?
Immediately—as soon as I can succeed in forming it.
Will this Committee be paid, and will the Estimates for it come before the House?
Nobody on the Committee will be paid.
Is it not absolutely unprecedented for a Government to appoint a Committee to advise it on questions of policy?
The Committee is not intended to advise the Government on questions of policy, but no doubt questions of expenditure arising in connection with policy, and what the policy costs, will come under its review, but the Committee will not be in a position to advise the Government on the question of policy.
Is it within the knowledge of the right hon. Gentleman that, when the Estimates Committee was set up, it was expressly excluded from the consideration of questions of policy?
I quite understand that.
Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to lay on the Table of the House a copy of the reference to this Committee?
I shall be very glad to give the House all the information which I can. I will consider what my Noble Friend has suggested.
Will the very highly-paid officials of the Ministry of Transport follow their grandiose chief into his new position?
Will the reports of this Committee be laid before the Estimates Committee of this House?
I should think not. The Committee will report to the Cabinet. The Committee is set up by the Cabinet for advice and assistance. Whether ultimately the report will be made available for public consumption is a matter for the Cabinet to consider.
When is Parliament, and not outside Committees, going to govern?
Parliament will have full control, as it has to-day. We are here only with the consent of Parliament. Parliament can get rid of us any day that it chooses to do so.
Take the Whips off!
Questions to Ministers
On a point of Order. I desire to ask your ruling, Mr. Speaker, with reference to questions. Yesterday I handed in a question asking for a definite assurance from the Government that we should be informed of the Irish offer before the House rose. That question does not appear on the Paper, and I understand it has been ruled out on the ground that the question was answered both yesterday and on Monday. But the questions asked on Monday and yesterday were entirely different. On Monday the Prime Minister said that he was not in a position to make a statement. Yesterday the Leader of the House said that he hoped to be able to make a statement. Upon that I handed in a question asking for a definite assurance, and in view of the immense magnitude of this subject surely that question should have been allowed to appear on the Paper? I ask, therefore, for your ruling as to whether the question may not now appear on the Paper for to-morrow.
I have not seen the exact terms of the question. A question to all intents and purpose the same as one which has been answered cannot be received, but if there be a new point in the question, it will be received.
The question is different, because I ask for a definite assurance, which we have not yet had.
I find, on reference, that the hon. and gallant Member's question is on the Paper for to-morrow.
Business of the House
Would the Leader of the House tell us what business it is pro posed to take on Friday, and what business will be taken after 11 o'clock to-night and to-morrow night?
To-night, after the Votes are disposed of, we propose to take the Report of the Financial Resolution of the Land Settlement Bill; the Salmon and Fresh Water Fisheries Bill, Third Reading; and the Lords Amendment to the Corn Sales Bill. I believe there is no opposition or objection.
To-morrow night, after the Votes are disposed of, we propose to take the Criminal Law Amendment Bill [ Lords ], Report and Third Reading.
On Friday we shall take a series of small and entirely non-contentious Measures, and shall then proceed to the discussion of the Regulations governing the admission of women to the Civil Service, for which a day was promised. The Measures in question are the Trusts (Scotland) Bill, Second Reading; the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Bill, Second Reading; also the Land Settlement Amendment Bill, Second Reading; the Telegraph (Money) Bill, Second Reading; and the Exchequer and Audit Bill, Second Reading.
Not contentious?
I believe all of them are non-contentious, or so I have, been informed through the usual channels. The programme will give the House the opportunity which critics desire for discussing the Regulations governing the entrance of women into the Civil Service.
Can the debate tonight be arranged so that the House can express an opinion on the question of no marriage allowance being given to naval officers?
That was dealt with yesterday. It depends entirely on the disposition which the House chooses to make of the time at its disposal.
Does that mean that if we do not take too long on Vote 8 we can get to Vote 12?
Should the House desire to discuss Vote 12 rather than any of the questions on the other Vote, the House will do so. I cannot limit or even guide the discretion of the House in these matters.
Could you not advise the House, because it is of such vital importance? Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, Supplementary Estimates for New Services may he considered in Committee of Supply, and that Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Eleven o'clock."—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]
I should have thought that the Leader of the House would have given us a few words of explanation of this Motion. I presume that, in view of the appalling facts of the case, he has come to the very wise conclusion that "least said, soonest mended." I wish to draw attention to what this Motion really means. It means that the Supplementary Estimates will be taken under the Guillotine without any debate whatsoever. That leads me to address a comment or two to my right hon. Friend with regard to the Supplementary Estimates. I would remind him and the House that this year there will fall to be voted no less a sum than £91,316,207 for Supplementary Estimates for the first four months of the year.
Including those which have already been presented.
Yes. There is falling very specially under the Guillotine Rule to-night a sum of £62,210,497, and the Votes thereunder are the occasion for the Motion now before us. Last November I addressed the House on this subject and I drew attention to the fact that up to August of last year the Supplementary Estimates had amounted to no less than £77,000,000. I then predicted that before the end of the financial year they would amount to no less than £90,000,000. I was under estimating. I think I usually do under estimate, subject to some errors which my right hon. Friend has pointed out. I under estimated last year, and the real total was £108,000,000. Encouraged by that prophecy I venture to make another prediction now, and it is that before this financial year is concluded this total of £91,000,000 will have swollen to no less a sum than £120,000,000. The total Budget before the War was £200,000,000. The Supplementary Estimates voted last year, and those to be voted this year, including the sum to-day before the House, are half the total Budget before the War broke out. These are stupendous figures. The very size of them dulls the comprehension of the House as to what the actual facts are.
I have not the slightest doubt that when my right hon. Friend comes to reply he will say that a large amount of this £62,000,000, probably £40,000,000 or £50,000,000, has been already discussed. I admit at once that there has been a certain amount of reference to these sums, and in more than one case detailed reference to the principles upon which these sums are based and the policy in connection with them, but the object of Supplementary Estimates is not a general discussion at all. The lines of discussion on Supplementary Estimates are laid down for hon. Members in the papers which are presented by the Government for their use, and the only way in which Supplementary Estimates can be properly debated is by following the exact amounts under each Vote and by studying the notes in rather small letters which follow the various heads. Hon. Members who have taken an interest in this question of the discussion of Supplementary and other Estimates will agree with me when I say that the criticism to which the Parliamentary Secretaries and the Departments concerned can be and often have been subjected by all Members of the House has been of very great value. The reply which my right hon. Friend may give in no way touches the complaint which I am now making against His Majesty's Government, that they have not given sufficient time for the discussion of the financial business as a whole and of the Supplementary Estimates in particular. Slack Estimates breed Supplementary Estimates, and Supplementary Estimates, when the opportunity is given for examining them, are the only means left to this House of checking the action of Departments and the responsibility of the Ministers in charge.
To-night very little short of £300,000,000 will be passed under the Guillotine undiscussed. I know what my right hon. Friend is going to say very well. He is going to say that these Votes have often been proposed from the Chair, but have not been taken for the convenience of Members of the House. There is, however, one very significant fact this Session. Only three Votes have been proposed and not taken. They are the Treasury Vote, the Foreign Office Vote, and another Vote which for the moment I cannot recollect. Therefore, it follows that an enormous sum is going to pass under the Guillotine. The greatest charge which we can levy with unquestioned justice against my right hon. Friend and those who share his responsibility is that these huge Supplementary Estimates are, by the Motion which he now asks the House to pass, also to fall under the same ruthless machine. If my right hon. Friend would adopt the practice which he adopted last night and take the Whips off, there is not the slightest doubt as to the line which the House would take with regard to these Supplementary Estimates. Time and time again he would be put in a minority in this House if the House had the opportunity of doing it. Time and time again that has been clearly demonstrated. I do not wish to labour the question any longer, but simply once again to lay this charge against the Government, a charge in which there is scarcely a part of the House which has not joined, that owing to their mismanagement of the business and their gross misconduct of the finance of the country, the House is driven every time to the same ridiculous position which is destructive of confidence in the Government itself and widespread indignation throughout the country.
I do not know whether my right hon. Friend will permit me to add my humble contribution to the handsome tribute which he has paid to himself. He has announced that as a prophet he is a colossal success. May I say that, as a Leader of the Opposition, he is no less a success, because he is able, with an appearance of enthusiasm and even of passion, to denounce in his opponents those things which he readily accepted and gladly supported as long as he was on the other side of the House. My right hon. Friend's language is exaggerated. He himself, I think, must feel that in his calmer moments. He complains that much money will be voted without discussion. When has that not been true, since the Supply Rule was originally passed by this House? Does anyone pretend—will my right hon. Friend for one moment suggest—that the Supply Rule is not an immense advantage from the point of view of efficient Parliamentary control and discussion over the procedure which existed before, when no Supply Votes were practically taken, except some few Board of Works Votes, or Votes of least consequence, until you got into the dog days and all the rest of the business was over, when the 11 o'clock Rule was suspended, and when the opposition to the Votes and the criticisms of Parliament were worn down by sheer fatigue and exhaustion? That was the old practice which I remember, and which was superseded by the Supply Rule, allotting one day per week and a certain number of days in the best period of the Session to the consideration of Supply. Twenty such days are allotted by the Rule, and three more may be granted. This year two more days have been granted. Therefore, there has been almost the full number of days for the discussion of Supply.
My right hon. Friend complains that some Votes have not been discussed. If my right hon. Friend crosses the Floor of the House, as some day I hope he will, let me say, for the comfort and relief of Ministers at not too distant a date, he will not allot 40 days to the consideration of Votes in Supply. We shall probably have to battle with him for anything about 20, which are the minimum required. These general observations of my right hon. Friend on the conduct of Supply and the incapacity of the Government were based upon the volume of Supplementary Estimates, and, in particular, of new services which will fall under the Guillotine to-night. There is not, I think, one of these services of which the House has not been made fully cognisant in one way or another, and which the Opposition might not have asked to have had discussed have had put down for discussion had they wished. I am not quite certain that in the present distribution of parties the practice which leaves to the Opposition the choice of what Supply shall be taken on each day is quite fair to independent Members in the majority. It was a very fair arrangement when the House was more equally divided, but I am not certain that it is fair to independent Members in the majority under the peculiar circumstances of the present House. If anybody has a right to complain, surely it is not the right hon. Gentleman, who, I think, Has chosen the Vote for every alternate Supply day throughout the Session. Surely it is not he who has a right to reproach the Government with not having had discussed a particular Vote when he could have had that Vote discussed had he not chosen another one.
Some of these Supplementary Estimates were only presented on 15th July.
We have had Supply days since 15th July, and the Votes which we have taken have been the Votes chosen by right hon. Gentlemen opposite. If they have been the wrong Votes, the extent of the Government's crime is that they have complied with the request of the right hon. Gentleman and those who sit on that Bench, and the right hon. Gentleman cannot shift his responsibility on to the Government, who have quite enough responsibility of their own to bear. As regards the amount of the Supplementary Estimates and the extent of the discussion, my right hon. Friend, with the skill of a practised advocate, sought to discount in advance the defence which I might offer by admitting it, and waiving it on one side as unimportant. I do not think that it is unimportant. There is a total of Supplementary Estimates of all kinds, including £6,000,000 of the May Estimates, of roughly £68,500,000. The right hon. Gentleman suggests that in effect the House has had no control of that money, and no opportunity of discussing it. Let us see the facts. I can state them very briefly. Of the £68,000,000—I give round figures—£28,500,000 are what are technically known as "new services," and of that £28,500,000, £28,000,000 has been fully discussed by the House in the course of other discussions mainly on legislation, though they have not been discussed in Supply. Only £500,000, or little more, remains undiscussed. Of the other £40,000,000, Supplementary Estimates not being new services, £38,500,000 has been already the subject of discussion.
My right hon. Friend complains that there are so many Supplementary Estimates. No Government likes Supplementary Estimates. Supplementary Estimates are the weak joint in the armour of any Government. My right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), I am sure, in his time has felt the same dis- like of Supplementary Estimates that I have felt both as Chancellor of the Exchequer and in my present capacity. You could not, however, avoid abnormal Supplementary Estimates in the abnormal times through which we have been passing. Look at a single item in this total of £68,000,000. £36,000,000, more than half, are for the railways. Are we to blame for having a Supplementary Estimate for them? £30,000,000 is part of the sum which the House has discussed at length on the Railways Bill, and has agreed to pay to the railway companies in satisfaction of their claims against the Government under the War Agreement. £6,000,000 is the deficit which under the same agreement we are bound to make up, the Supplementary Estimate being due to the particular circumstances of this year, and its effect upon railway earnings. That is £30,000,000.
Take another sum of £19,500,000—more than that, of £20,500,000. That sum is in connection with legisation, and in pursuance of legislation, which the House has passed in regard to the Corn Production Act, and a sum of £19,500,000 out of this £20,500,000 is merely by way of anticipation, or is a composition brought into this year, of a charge which would otherwise, in a heavier form, have fallen upon next year. For the purposes of the present discussion raised by the right hon. Gentleman, the important thing to observe is that, though technically not before the House in the form of Estimates, the great mass of the money affected by the Resolution which I have moved, has been discussed and amply discussed by the House. The House has had an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon it, and it has decided that the money should be expended; and this is the mere mechanical application of decisions already taken. I think that is sufficient justification for the course which the Government have adopted, and it reduces the very violent and rather artificial attack of the right hon. Gentleman, to its true proportions.
Question put,
"That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, Supplementary Estimates for New Services may be considered in Committee of Supply, and that Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Eleven o'clock."
The House divided: Ayes, 257; Noes, 57.
Division No. 312.] AYES. [4.16 p. m. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Gould, James C. Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Grant, James Augustus Murchison, C. K. Ainsworth, Captain Charles Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox) Amery, Leopold C. M. S. Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hackn'y, N.) Murray, William (Dumfries) Armitage, Robert Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar Neal, Arthur Armstrong, Henry Bruce Gregory, Holman Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W. Greig, Colonel Sir James William Nicholl, Commander Sir Edward Atkey, A. R. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Baird, Sir John Lawrence Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Nield, Sir Herbert Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Hailwood, Augustine Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Hall, Captain Sir Douglas Bernard Oman, Sir Charles William C. Barlow, Sir Montague Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W. D'by) Parker, James Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool) Barnett, Major Richard W. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Pearce, Sir William Barnston, Major Harry Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Percy, Charles (Tynemouth) Barrand, A. R. Harris, Sir Henry Percy Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Beliairs, Commander Carlyon W. Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h) Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Pratt, John William Bethell, Sir John Henry Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Purchase, H. G. Betterton, Henry B. Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Raeburn, Sir William H. Bigland, Alfred Hills, Major John Waller Rankin, Captain James Stuart Birchail, Major J. Dearman Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Ratcliffe, Henry Butler Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Reid, D. D. Blades, Sir George Rowland Hood, Joseph Remnant, Sir James Blair, Sir Reginald Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Renwick, Sir George Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington) Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Brassey, H. L. C. Hopkins, John W. W. Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Breese, Major Charles E. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Rodger, A. K. Briggs, Harold Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Broad, Thomas Tucker Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Hurd, Percy A. Rutherford, Colonel Sir J. (Darwen) Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur Burgoyne, Lt-Col. Alan Hughes Jameson, John Gordon Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Jesson, C. Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Burn, T. H. (Belfast. St. Anne's) Jodrell, Neville Paul Seager, Sir William Butcher, Sir John George Johnstone, Joseph Seddon, J. A. Campbell, J. D. G. Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke) Sharman-Crawford, Robert G. Carr, W. Theodore Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock) Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington) Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Casey, T. W. Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr Simm, M. T. Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Kidd, James Smith, Sir Malcolm (Orkney) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. King, Captain Henry Douglas Smithers, Sir Alfred W. Clough, Sir Robert Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Lane-Fox, G. R. Stanley, Major Hon. Q. (Preston) Cope, Major William Larmor, Sir Joseph Stanton, Charles Butt Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Steel, Major S. Strang Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Stevens, Marshall Curzon, Captain Viscount Lindsay, William Arthur Stewart, Gershom Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Lloyd, George Butler Sturrock, J. Leng Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Sugden, W. H. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Lorden, John William Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Lowe, Sir Francis William Sutherland, Sir William Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith) Taylor, J. Dawes, James Arthur M'Connell, Thomas Edward Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham) Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P. Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Doyle, N. Grattan Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Thorpe, Captain John Henry Du Pre, Colonel William Baring M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Tickler, Thomas George Edge, Captain William Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Tryon, Major George Clement Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Turton, Edmund Russborough Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Macquisten, F. A. Waddington, R. Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Magnus, Sir Philip Wallace, Thomas Brown (West Down) Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Mallaby-Deeley, Harry Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Fell, Sir Arthur Mallalieu, Frederick William Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley) Fildes, Henry Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Marriott, John Arthur Ransome Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent) Flannery, Sir James Fortescue Martin, A. E. Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Ford, Patrick Johnston Mason, Robert White, Col. G. D. (Southport) Forrest, Walter Matthews, David Whitla, Sir William Fraser, Major Sir Keith Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B. Williams, C. (Tavistock) Frece, Sir Walter de Mitchell, Sir William Lane Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Moles, Thomas Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Gardner, Ernest Molson, Major John Eisdale Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Gee, Captain Robert Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Winterton, Earl Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Wise, Frederick Gilbert, James Daniel Morden, Col. W. Grant Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Glyn, Major Ralph Morris, Richard Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Goff, Sir R. Park Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. Wood, Major Sir S. Hill-(High Peak) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Young, E. H. (Norwich) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. Yeo, Sir Alfred William McCurdy
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D. Grundy, T. W. Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Myers, Thomas Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Gwynne, Rupert S. O'Connor, Thomas P. Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Rees, Capt. J. Tudor-(Barnstaple) Barton, Sir William (Oldham) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes) Rendall, Athelstan Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Irving, Dan Rose, Frank H. Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Royce, William Stapleton Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Spoor, B. G. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kiley, James Daniel Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Cairns, John Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Cape, Thomas Lawson, John James Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lowther, Major C. (Cumberland, N.) Wignall, James Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) Lowther, Col. Claude (Lancaster) Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lunn, William Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Wintringham, Thomas Entwistle, Major C F. Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Galbraith, Samuel Mills, John Edmund Gillis, William Morgan, Major D. Watts TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Glanville, Harold James Mosley, Oswald Mr. Hogge and Mr. T. Shaw.
Bills Presented
Public Works Loans Bill,
"to grant money for the purpose of certain local loans out of the Local Loans Fund, and for other purposes relating to local loans," presented by Mr. Hilton Young; supported by Sir Robert Home; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 199.]
Ice-Cream Bill
"to declare ice-cream a refreshment within the meaning of the Shops (Early Closing) Act, 1920," presented by Mr. CLEMENT EDWARDS; supported by Mr. Frederick Green, Mr. Jesson, and Mr. Walton; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 200.]
SLOUGH TRADING COMPANY, LIMITED (CANAL), BILL [Lords]
Reported, with Amendments.
Report to he upon the Table, and to be printed.
Message from the Lords
That (they have agreed to,—
Housing (Scotland) (No. 2) Bill,
Representation of the People (No. 2) Bill,
London County Council (Money) Bill, without Amendment,
Southampton Corporation Water Bill,
Lee Conservancy Bill, with Amendments.
Amendments to—
Liverpool Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
Southend Water Bill [ Lords ],
Grimsby Corporation Bill [ Lords ], without Amendment.
Estimates
Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence and Appendices, brought up, and read.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 203.]
Orders of the Day
Supply
[21ST ALLOTTED DAY.]
Considered in Committee.
[Sir EDWIN CORNWALL in the chair.]
Civil Services Estimates and Supplementary Estimates, 1921–22
Class VII
Ministry of Labour
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £12,445,405 (including a Supplementary sum of £1,620,000), be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Labour and Subordinate Departments, including the Contribution to the Unemployment Insurance Fund, and to Special Schemes under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1920 and 1921, payments to Associations under Section 17 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920, and Section 106 of the National Insurance Act, 1911; Out-of-Work Donation and Expenditure in connection with the Training of Demobilised Officers and of Non-Commissioned Officers and Men, and the Training of Women; and Grants for Resettlement in Civil Life, also the Expenses of the Industrial Court."—[ Note. —£7,500,000 has been voted on account. ]
May I say one word on the Vote which is now before the Committee. This Vote, as the Committee knows, has to be taken here first, and the Report stage is being taken to-morrow. In order to suit the convenience of the House, so that it shall be set down as the first Order on the Report stage to-morrow, it is necessary to move it formally in Committee to-day.
Question put, and agreed to.
Navy Estimates and Supplementary Estimates, 1921–22
Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, Etc.—Personnel
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £11,845,600, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the Personnel for Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, &c., at Dockyards and Naval Yards at Home and Abroad, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922."
It would, I think, meet the convenience of the Committee if I began by explaining briefly the purpose of the revised Estimate which is being presented in connection with this and the two subsequent Votes. In Section III of Vote 8, as originally presented to the Committee, a lump sum of £2,500,000, for the replacement of obsolescent ships, was included under a temporary subhead (LL). That lump sum has now been analysed and distributed amongst Votes and sections of Votes to which it properly belongs, though the total Vote concerned remains unaffected. Sums of £227,000 for wages and of £187,000 for material are allocated to Sections I and II of this Vote, respectively. This is mainly in respect of a new minelayer to be laid down at Devon-port and a new experimental submarine to be laid down at Chatham. The expenditure on the four new capital ships falls as to £1,876,000 on Section III of Vote 8, and as to £200,000 on Vote 9, of which £160,000 is for work on new guns and £40,000 for inspection and experiments in connection with those guns, while £10,000 is devoted to partial reorganisation of the Government torpedo factory at Greenock. This reorganisation has been necessitated by the fact that the Whitehead torpedo works at Weymouth, from which we were in the habit of securing many essential parts of our torpedoes, have recently closed down. As Greenock is now the only torpedo factory in the country, we are obliged to rearrange our plant there so as to enable the factory to be self-contained and to manufacture everything we require in connection with torpedoes. This £10,000, though taken out of the £2,500,000, has to figure as a Supplementary Estimate technically, because Vote 10 has already been passed.
I do not think I shall be wrong in assuming that of these items those which will mainly interest the Committee are those concerned with the laying down of the four new ships, and with your permission, Sir Edwin, I will cover all three sections of Vote 8 in my statement, so as to be able to deal at once with this main question.
Surely my hon. Friend has forgotten that in the explanatory statement of the Naval Estimates the figure given as £2,500,000 was to be expended on this Vote for replacement of obsolescent ships, but now the hon. Gentleman has taken out of that sum £10,000 for something which has nothing to do with the replacement of obsolescent ships.
I think I can meet that point. It is specifically to make the torpedoes for these new ships that are replacing obsolescent ships, and in order to make all the parts of these torpedoes we have to rearrange the only torpedo factory which is now left to us, the factory at Greenock. The policy of laying down four new capital ships this year has already been approved by the Committee, but I think I ought on this Vote to amplify a little what was briefly indicated to the Committee by my predecessor in the discussion last March. I should like to begin by saying that our policy is not one of competition or of challenge. It is simply and solely a policy of replacing obsolete ships already relegated to the disposal list. The mightiest instrument of power that the world has ever known—that Grand Fleet under whose relentless pressure the Central Empires, for all their furious and sustained effort on sea and land, finally collapsed and crumbled away—that instrument, not only by the actual wear and tear of the War, but by the very experiences of the struggle, has become in a large measure obsolete in our hands. A few hours of actual fighting were sufficient to revolutionise ideas as to the armament and design of battleships. The lessons of those few hours were open to all the world, and other Powers have not been slow to make use of them. At this moment there are under construction whole battle fleets of vessels of a type incomparably more powerful than anything afloat at the Battle of Jutland, and in the face of whose shattering shell-fire all ships of earlier design are liable to instant and complete destruction by the penetration of their magazines. Japan has eight of these vessels, one of which is already completed, and all of which will be completed by 1925, and she has voted money for eight more to be completed by 1928. The United States—not counting four battleships of 32,600 tons equipped with 16-inch guns, vessels considerably more powerful than our latest types, the "Royal Sovereigns" and "Queen Elizabeths"—will have completed by the end of 1924, or the beginning of 1925, no less than twelve of these supreme engines of war, each of over 43,000 tons. In the case, both of Japan and of the United States, we are dealing, not with projects, but with construction which is actually in progress.
We, on the other hand, have only one British post-Jutland capital ship built or building—the "Hood"—and even she, I would remind the Committee, is only equipped with 15-inch, guns. In view of these facts, no one will venture to suggest that the present programme of replacing obsolete ships which we have just scrapped by four new capital ships to-be completed early in 1925 contains any element of challenge or provocation. On the contrary, the Government and the Board of Admiralty are, I fully admit, open to the charge that they are allowing the British Navy to fall below the standard adopted and announced by the Government in March, 1920, and accepting the possibility of its being, for a time, at any rate, inferior in material strength to the Navy of other Powers. I do not wish to minimise the risk which they have faced in this decision. It is a risk only justified, though I believe it is justified, by two considerations. One is the general financial and international situation; the other is the desirability of avoiding any step that would invite a fresh competition in armaments. On the eve of a conference whose main object is to avert the certain waste and eventual disaster of a renewed competition in armaments, this latter consideration will appeal with special force to the Committee.
I may be asked, of course, why we should not in that case postpone the laying down of even those four ships till after the conference. Such a question would, I venture to suggest, be based on a complete misunderstanding of the purpose with which that conference will meet. It will meet in order to see whether by broad agreements on policy it may not be possible to prevent the present shipbuilding programmes of the three greatest naval Powers being further expanded and swallowing ever vaster sums of the world's common stock of treasure in an ever-increasing competition based on mutual fear and distrust. It is not likely that the other great Powers represented at that conference will offer to scrap ships already built or actually building, and in view of the figures in connection with their naval programmes which I have just given to the Committee, it is obvious that the laying down of our four ships, or even of twice their number, cannot affect in any way the problem before that conference. I repeat that the policy embodied in the laying down of these ships is in no sense a policy of competition, and as such a matter open to controversy in connection with this conference. It is perhaps not even an adequate fulfilment of our declared policy that our Navy should not be inferior in strength to that of any other Power. It is simply a policy of gradual replacement circumscribed within the narrowest limits and postponed to the very latest date which the safety of the Empire will permit.
I have dealt with this matter, so far, only in terms of material, but, after all, the human and personal element is of even greater importance, and on that side I venture to believe that we, with the unique experience of the war behind us, stand well ahead. Indeed, but for their reliance on our superiority in this respect, the Board of Admiralty would never have been prepared to take the admitted risks they are taking in our present modest programme of replacement. The safety, the very experience, of the British Empire are staked, and for the next few years more completely staked than ever, upon the high moral and the professional efficiency of the Navy. But you cannot sustain efficiency indefinitely on obsolete equipment, and even the highest moral is impaired if your officers and men believe that their, skill and devotion are to be thrown away and their lives sacrificed for want of ships in which they can feel reasonable confidence in the hour of action. If I may repeat the words used by the First Lord in his statement explanatory of these Estimates, "it would be a dereliction of duty on the part of the Admiralty to allow the efficiency, training, or moral of the Royal Navy to deteriorate through neglect to provide it with material which is equal to the best and in which it can feel confidence." For this reason, if for no other, we cannot afford to postpone any longer making a beginning with a policy of gradual replacement. Nor can we risk an irrevocable loss of time and building facilities which might make it impossible for us to maintain our security if we should be faced by a fresh sudden menace.
It is not customary at this preliminary stage in the construction of new ships, of war to give to the House of Commons, and so to the world at large, detailed information as to their design. But in the special circumstances of the time, and in view of the approaching international Conference, we have thought it desirable to make an exception, which the Committee must not regard as constituting; a precedent, in order to make it clear that, in this matter of design, we are not attempting to steal a march on other Powers, and are only bringing ourselves, up to date in modern developments which have already been adopted by our friends and Allies. The four capital ships which, are to be laid down will be battle cruisers of the "Hood" type, but with improvements in the matter of protection and armament which will embody the experience of the War and enable them to hold their own with any vessels of their class in other Navies. In view of the fact that all American and Japanese capital ships laid down since the " Hood " are being equipped with 16-inch guns, we have been obliged to follow their example, and our new ships will therefore be armed, with 16-inch and not with 15-inch guns.
How many guns?
I would sooner not be-pressed upon that point at present. On the other hand, the dimensions of those ships—and this has been a cardinal principle of their design—will be such as to keep within limits which will obviate the necessity of any larger docks or other accommodation being provided for them other than that already existing. I hope I shall not be pressed by hon. and right hon. Members opposite to give further details at this stage.
As far as I am concerned, I thought the hon. Gentleman said he was going to give a complete statement to the House, and that was the only reason why I asked him a question.
No, I said I was going to give the House more than it had ever been customary to give at this stage.
My hon. Friend is quite mistaken. Complete details were always given up to 1904, and discussed.
Not at this early stage. Complete details have been given at some stage, and I hope we shall give much fuller details than I have been able to give today, but those details have not been given at this early stage. I think the Committee will realise that my only object in giving as much information as I have done is to show that we are not aiming at any new or costly revolution in naval armaments and are only equipping our Fleet with up-to-date vessels in which both the officers and men who will man them, and the Empire whose existence may depend on them, may have every right to feel confidence.
What will be the total cost?
That will depend on the tenders.
Cannot we have an approximate estimate?
I do not think I can give even an approximate estimate.
Will they cost more than the "Hood"?
I hope they may not, but it will depend on what prices will be in the next few months. I have not forgotten that several Members of the Committee, and in particular the hon. Baronet, the Member for Maldon (Sir Fortescue Flannery), have raised the question of responsibility for the design of the new ships, and reference has been made in this connection to recent discussions in the Press on the subject of under-water protection and to the desirability of appointing a special committee on designs, as was done in 1904. As far as this latter Committee is concerned, it was not, of course, a Committee to design new types, of ships—these had already been decided on—but only to review certain details of construction. In the present case too the demand for a Committee has arisen mainly in connection with the particular feature of bulge protection. I think I can convince the Committee that this question has already been adequately examined. As far back as 1913 a series of exhaustive experiments was begun by the Director of Naval Construction, Sir Eustace Tennyson D'Eyncourt, subsequently assisted by Professor Hopkinson, of the Royal Society, on this method of protection against torpedo attack. The results of these experiments were so encouraging that during the War bulges were added to many of our old ships, and embodied in principle in our larger new ships. In actual practice the bulges proved a complete success. They were completely efficient against torpedo attack, and not a single vessel so protected was lost. The practical experience of the Fleet and the results of experiments since, were, in August, 1918, submitted to a Committee presided over by Lord Jellico. That Committee recommended that all new battleships and battle cruisers should be fitted with full bulge protection, and that a modified form of this protection should be given to smaller vessels. Much of the discussion since then has turned on the question whether the bulge should be internal or external. But that distinction really depends on the assumption that the designs of the bulges applied to new ships will necessarily follow the contour line of the bulges applied to existing ships. That is not so, and, consequently, the distinction is one of definition rather than of substance. In any case, I can assure the Committee that every suggestion, from whatever source, was carefully considered before the present design was adopted, and that the Admiralty are satisfied that they have secured a form of under-water protection which, as far as possible, will meet all contingencies.
Even more fertile as a subject of discussion in the Press has been the question whether we should build capital ships at all, and whether far greater results at the same or even less expense could not be secured by concentrating on smaller craft, more particularly on the submarine and the aeroplane. That question has been exhaustively examined by the naval and constructional staffs of the other great Naval Powers, and I have already informed the Committee what their unanimous answer to it has been. It has naturally also been the subject of most anxious and searching investigation on our part. It was investigated immediately after the Armistice by an Admiralty Committee, and since then it has been continuously under review by the Board of Admiralty and their technical officers. It was again fully re-investigated at the beginning of the present year by a special Sub-committee of the Committee of Imperial Defence, under the chairmanship of my right hon. Friend the late Leader of the House. Nothing emerged from any of those investigations to change the broad, general and universally accepted conclusion that the capital ship is still the basis on which sea power ultimately rests. I will not attempt to recapitulate all the arguments and considerations which have led to so definite and so authoritative a conclusion. But I would lay stress on a few of the most important. As between surface ships, there can be no possible doubt as to the immense advantage which the larger, more heavily gunned and more powerfully armoured ship possesses over lighter craft. Coronel, the Falkland Islands, Jutland put that beyond dispute. The real issue is whether the submarine and aeroplane have yet reached the point of development at which the capital surface ship has become out of date. The submarine, undoubtedly, is a very formidable engine of war, and it is one which has come to stay; but it is one whose whole power lies in concealment, and for the sake of that concealment it has to sacrifice speed and offensive and defensive power. For the time being, at any rate, that very power of concealment has been most seriously impaired by the remarkable progress made during the closing months of the War, and since, in scientific methods of submarine detection.
The aeroplane has, of course, become an essential and indispensable factor in naval warfare, but it has not yet been proved capable of carrying or discharging with accuracy at a moving target, and in the face of high angle fire, projectiles more formidable than those against which the modern capital ship is already protected. Its range is still very limited; and, except for inshore work, it is dependent upon the aeroplane carrier; in other words, upon a surface ship whose security against other surface ships ultimately rests on the battle cruiser or battleship. The day of capital aircraft or of the capital submarine may come. But it has not come yet, and, until it does come, the capital surface ship will remain the kernel and pivot of naval warfare. What is true, no doubt, is that all these new elements of naval warfare have acquired an increased relative importance. The fighting fleet of the future can no longer be reckoned in terms of ships of the line. It is a great complex of highly diversified and specialised units, each of which is indispensable to the defensive and offensve power of the whole.
I now come to the question of where these ships are to be built. At this moment the building slips in the Government dockyards are incapable of taking ships of the size of the "Hood." That situation is not one in which we can permanently acquiesce. We regard it as essential that we should be able to build any type of ship in the Royal Yards—if for no other reason, for the purpose of exercising some check on the prices quoted by private contractors. But in deciding where to build these particular four ships, we had certain immediate considerations to face which, in our opinion, after the most careful inquiry, have left us no alternative but to put them all out to tender. The first consideration was that of urgency. To lengthen the slips at Devonport and Portsmouth would take, in the one case, 20, and, in the other, 24 months, working night and day. Our replacement programme has already been postponed to the utmost limit. To delay two of the ships for the best part of two years further would be taking risks for which the Admiralty could not make itself responsible. The second consideration was that of economy. The lengthening of the Devonport slip would cost about £350,000; of the Portsmouth slip, £650,000. That expense—or so much less as falling prices may enable us to save in the future—will have to be incurred eventually. But to spend that £1,000,000 on enlarging Government slips, when at least six private slips are there ready and waiting for the work, does not seem to me a form of capital expenditure, which, however desirable in itself, can be justified at this juncture.
Finally, there is the consideration of employment. It is true these ships will give the same employment, from the point of view of the nation as a whole, wherever they are built. But, undoubtedly, the Government has a special responsibility to the great dockyard centres which depend upon it, and which have little or no alternative employment to look to. Even from that point of view, however, we should not be justified at this moment in stopping or postponing the work of building smaller ships or carrying on major repairs in order to effect these structural alterations. I can only repeat that we do intend, as soon as the financial situation allows, to bring the Royal Dockyards up to date in their capacity to build the biggest ships, and, meanwhile, we shall certainly do our best to keep them fully and efficiently employed. There will inevitably have to be further reductions in personnel from the present figures, but we hope in the course of the coming year to reach a condition of stability at figures approximately at the average pre-War level.
In this connection the Committee will wish to know the final conclusions of the Government in the matter of Pembroke and Haulbowline. It was originally proposed to close down both these dockyards in order to secure an economy in overhead charges, by concentrating the work at the larger and better equipped yards. But, in deference to the eloquence and cogency of the arguments brought forward in support of the retention of Pembroke by my hon. Friend the Member for that borough (Sir Evan Jones), my predecessor gave a promise that the whole question would be re-examined, and no irrevocable decision taken before this Vote was reached. The hon. Baronet for Pembroke was subsequently able to present his case still further to the Admiralty at the head of an influential and representative deputation. In the end, while even his ingenuity in the handling of figures was not sufficient to persuade us that it would be justifiable to maintain the yard in future at its present, or even its pre-War strength, in view of the inadequacy of its equipment for the purposes of the modern Navy, we have come to the conclusion that it will be feasible and advantageous, without incurring any fresh capital expenditure on equipment, to make use of its existing facilities to a limited extent, and for certain classes of ships. We are accordingly prepared to keep Pembroke dockyard in existence at a reduced permanent strength of about 1,200 men.
What is the present number?
2,200. On this basis, the yard could always have .two smaller vessels in hand, and, at the same time, find room on the existing site for the oil fuel depot already approved to be pro- vided in this neighbourhood. The immediate reduction by the end of the present financial year would be from 2,200 to 1,500 men, and the final figure would be reached when the repayment work now in progress, or prospective work in connection with the oil depot, is completed. The financial saving which will result from this reduction will, after taking all known factors into account, be about £155,000 a year.
As regards Haulbowline, I am afraid further investigation only confirmed the view that the maintenance of this small dockyard could not be justified on grounds either of economy or efficiency. At least £250,000 would be required to render it capable of undertaking the complete refit even of a light cruiser; in its present condition, it can only do minor repairs, and its establishment charges are out of all proportion to the total work which is or can be done there. The local economic dislocation consequent on the reduction which will be completed by the end of the financial year, is to be regretted, but it will be far less than would have been the case at Pembroke. The actual naval base at Queenstown will, of course, still be maintained.
I do not think I need deal in detail with the other items in the current year's shipbuilding programme—the completion of the "Effingham" and "Frobisher," and the seven smaller light cruisers, of the two flotilla leaders, six destroyers, 13 submarines, and sundry trawlers and drifters—which are set out in the programme at the end of the Navy Estimates. In view, however, of certain criticisms made in the previous Debate in March, I should like to say a word or two on the subject of the conversion of the "Eagle" and "Furious" to aircraft carriers. The "Eagle," originally laid down as the Chilean battleship "Almirante Cochrane," was taken up for conversion in February, 1918, when no other vessel was available. The high total figure at which she stands in the Estimate is due, of course, largely to the purchase price paid for her as a partly built battleship. At the Armistice work was so far advanced on her that it would not have been economical either to have scrapped her or to have reconverted her for delivery to Chile, and her trial while still incomplete showed that she will make a most efficient aircraft carrier. The decision to alter the "Furious" to an aircraft carrier was arrived at as an alternative to building a new ship for the purpose, which would have cost something like three times as much. We believe she will fulfil in every respect the needs of what has now become an integral, and indeed vital, part of any battle fleet.
5.0 P.M
There is one matter on which the Committee will naturally wish for some information before I conclude, and that is the extent to which the whole problem of the future naval security of the British Empire has been considered at the present meeting of the Imperial Cabinet, and the conclusions to which that consideration has led. In dealing with that question, the Prime Ministers of the Empire have had to keep in view, not only the great problems of naval strategy considered by themselves, but the constitutional issues involved in Imperial co-operation and the still wider issues of international relations. The outcome of these deliberations was embodied at a meeting of the Prime Ministers of the Empire on 27th July in the following resolution:
Naval Defence
"That, while recognising the necessity of co-operation among the various portions of the Empire to provide such naval defence as may prove to be essential for security, and, while holding that equality with the naval strength of any other Power is a minimum standard for that purpose, this Conference is of opinion that the method and extent of such co-operation are matters for the final determination of the several Parliaments concerned, and that any recommendations thereon should be deferred until after the coming Conference on Disarmament."
That Resolution will, I venture to think, be regarded in future years as an important landmark, alike in the history of British naval policy and of the development of Imperial co-operation. It deals, of course, with the development of the future, and does not directly affect the policy embodied in the Vote now before the Committee. That policy, I can only repeat, has been based on the most anxious regard for economy and the most scrupulous care to avoid the suggestion that we are giving any justification or pretext for a renewed race in armaments. We are wedded to no mere verbal or arithmetical formula. But we are resolved not to let down the Navy, upon which our Empire, our prosperity, and our freedom have been founded, and by which alone they can endure.
I am very glad to express what I believe will be the universal opinion of the Committee, and to congratulate my hon. Friend on the lucidity and comprehensiveness of the statement he has just made. In the new position he now happily holds, I am sure he will discharge the duties of that position to the public advantage. Since we last discussed these Estimates two important new factors have emerged. The first is the Conference of the Dominion Premiers with the Imperial Government. As we have learned from my hon. Friend, the whole of these matters were canvassed and discussed at that Conference and a conclusion come to in the Resolution he has just read. I will not say that Resolution is of a colourless kind; on the contrary, if I may venture to express my own opinion, it is thoroughly well-advised, because I gather it really defers any commitments on the part of either the Imperial authorities or the Dominions as to their naval policy and action in the future until after the results of the Conference at Washington have been ascertained and are known to the world. That Conference at Washington, summoned by President Harding, is the other new factor, and a most vital factor in the consideration of the case.
My hon. Friend has given us the grounds upon which the Government ask the assent of this Committee to the construction of four new battleships. I am not going into the question, which neither I nor any other layman is well qualified to embark upon, the purely technical and expert question of the relative merits, in the present condition of naval science and naval experience, of capital ships as against other forms of craft. My hon. Friend has told us that there is a practical consensus of opinion, not only here, but among all the great naval Powers, in favour of the retention of the capital ship. I certainly am not disposed in any way to question the validity of that conclusion. But I have my doubts—grave doubts—as to whether, in the circumstances of the present moment, it is necessary to commit ourselves to the construction of four new such ships. The hon. Gentleman has justified the course proposed on the ground that the ships are to replace obsolete and obsolescent vessels, but he has not told us—and we should like to know—what are the vessels in substitution for which these new ships are to be launched. He does not commit himself to any definite estimate at this moment of the cost, but we are able to form some conjecture, I think some trustworthy conjecture, from the actual expenditure upon the construction of the "Hood." The figure of that vessel has not yet been officially estimated, but I think I shall not be exaggerating when I say it amounted to something like £6,000,000. These later vessels are improvements on the "Hood," and prima facie will cost more than the original of which they are supposed to be improvements. Nor can it be ignored that since the laying down of the "Hood," which took place so far back as five years ago, there has been a considerable rise in the cost both of labour and of material. I shall, therefore, be agreeably surprised if these four ships are found to cost the taxpayer less than £6,000,000 or £7,000,000 each—possibly more. I should say it is not an extravagant total to put the cost of the four at not much less than £30,000,000 sterling. That is a very serious commitment for the country to undertake.
My object in the few observations I am going to address to the House is to try to get back to the fundamental principle which ought to guide our shipbuilding programme now. In days gone by the functions of the Navy have been variously defined by great authorities at different times. There have been times when one of its main functions, as regarded in many quarters, was the duty of protecting this country against invasion. I do not think anybody will now entertain that view. Invasion was one of those spectres which frightened the imagination in days gone by but which has been effectually laid by the experience of the War. Invasion or the possibility of invasion we may safely leave out of account, when regarding the war duties of the Navy in these days. I ventured when the Navy Estimates were last before the Committee to lay down what in my opinion was the function of the Navy in these days. Doubtless it could be put more felicitously, but what I then said to the House I would like to repeat, because it-seemed to me to receive almost universal assent. In March last I said this: détente of naval construction.
Germany, however, began to be a growing and a menacing sea-power. It would have been criminal, and we should have been wanting in our duty to the Government and the Empire if we had not recognised that factor. We did reckon with it. In a sense it is true to say that we changed our stategic attitude from facing south to facing east. During the time I myself was responsible for affairs, in view of that great and growing peril we increased our Naval Estimates till they reached at the time when the War broke out in 1914, the sum of—the right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary or my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will correct me if I am wrong—not far short of £50,000,000.
£52,000,000.
£52,000,000—very nearly double what we had spent on the Navy a few years before. We raised the personnel to over 150,000 men. When the War broke out we had what I believe was the unexampled number of no less than 38 capital ships actually in commission. Who will say that we were wrong, or that the provision was more than equal to the danger with which we were encompassed?
Happily, the international situation has now materially altered. During the whole of that time of what I may call competitive shipbuilding, which went on for nearly 30 years, we never took into account—indeed we deliberately excluded from account—the United States of America as possible competitors. I myself over and over again, speaking with responsibility here on the Floor of the House, said that was not a factor which we regarded as properly or naturally entering into our naval calculations. How do we stand to-day? The dangers to which we were then exposed have been removed, and will certainly not recur within the lifetime of this generation. It would be the worst possible example if we were led to regulate, or even to seem to regulate, what our shipbuilding programme should be by reference to what is toeing done by the United States of America. I am not sure whether it is adequately appreciated that this is not a question merely of capital ships. At the present moment the personnel of the United States Navy is considerably in excess of our own. I think I am speaking what is accurate that in regard to submarines and destroyers, and some other forms of craft, the United States is largely ahead of us at the present moment, and is likely to be still more so in the future.
There can be no more insane—I use the word advisedly—policy than to adopt, directly or indirectly, as a measure of what this country ought to do in order to secure herself against the risks to which she is actually or potentially exposed, than to measure your commitments for the future by what is being done by our friends in the United States of America. We are in an entirely different situation from any which British statesmen or British Parliaments have had to deal with for the last forty years, and I hope this House will emphatically declare what I am sure is the predominant feeling not only in this country, but throughout the Dominions and the Empire, that nothing will induce us to enter again into this wasteful and criminal competition, and least of all by reference to what is being done by our friends and, I hope, our permanent allies, across the Atlantic.
It is important to emphasise those considerations. President Harding has summoned two Conferences, one which is to deal especially, and, as I gather, exclusively, with the question of international disarmament. Disarmament is a very complex and difficult problem; but let me point out that it is a far easier problem when you are dealing with naval preparations than when you are dealing with military preparations which present a great many special complexities, as we have only got to look around Europe at this moment to see. The naval problem is, relatively speaking, an easy one, and if the Powers that are summoned to this Conference, the only ones who have any actual or potential capacity for restarting the policy of ruinous competition in armaments, if they can come round a table and agree to a maximum figure which ought to regulate their shipbuilding programmes in the future, you will have attacked and solved perhaps a much simpler problem than presents itself when you are dealing with land preparations; but you will have made a great and lasting contribution to the permanent hopes of the peace of the world. Those seem to me to be the governing considerations which ought to influence the decision of this Committee or any future Committee of Supply in determining whether or not new programmes of shipbuilding should be accepted.
I was very glad to hear the strong language used by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty on that point. He disclaimed on behalf of the Government any such intention. I deprecate the adoption of any formula, even the formula of equity with the next naval Power. I disclaim any formula of a technical or expert kind. The only sound principle which it appears to me should regulate your policy in this matter is to provide—being as we are on Insular Power, dependent for our raw material and for our food upon the freedom of the seas; and being, at the same time, an Imperial Power, connected by enormous distances of sea with the constituent parts of the Empire—against such risks not as the hare-brained, panic-driven imagination of experts, scaremongering experts, may conceive—I am dealing with those experts who appeal to the imagination of the populace, who inflame passions, excite animosities, and who build up international barriers between people and people—it is not this sort of risk you ought to heed, but the risks which in the transformed international situation produced by the War we may reasonably foresee in the years that lie immediately before us. The supreme and governing interest in the naval policy of this country is this: the maintenance of free access to our own coasts for all we need, and the free and uninterrupted communication between the inter-dependent and constituent members of the Empire and ourselves.
I wish to say a few words to the Committee on the First Lord's explanatory statement for 1921 and 1922. I cannot congratulate the Admiralty on having spent £90,500,000 in 1920–21, and then spending £82,500,000 for 1921–22. I cannot congratulate the Government on that, because some 12,000 electors of the Hertford Division asked me when I was there what all this money is being expended for. I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary what £173,000,000 is being spent for two years after the Armistice, because it seems to me a most extraordinary thing. Are we preparing to fight those nations who stood side by side with us in the Great War, or are we not? If you analyse this very extraordinary half-baked statement issued by the Admiralty, and signed by the First Lord, and also the Estimates, you will find that even timber is being increased by £100,000. Electrical torpedo stores show an increase of £500,000. Personnel in the dockyards at home has decreased by only 93, while the personnel in the dockyards abroad shows no reduction at all. Timber required abroad has increased by £101,600, coal by £90,000, and electrical stores by another £500,000. If every Jack-in-office is allowed to increase his own little job by £500,000, that shows where the money is going to.
I should like to draw the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said last week. He stated that 1,000 extra men were employed at the Admiralty on audit work, checking the war accounts. I know what the people in my constituency will say about that. They will say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is being bluffed by these super-limpets, and I should like to know how many ex-service men there are in that 1,000. The Chancellor of the Exchequer also said that of the extra 7,000 people employed at the Admiralty the 4,000 excess in comparison with pre-War times was due to the dockyard employés, and yet in the explanatory statement the First Lord said that all these staffs are to be reduced. I will not trouble the Committee with the details, but I should like to go a little further and refer to the question of capital ships.
I listened with much interest to the statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty. He was very clear on this point of capital ships. If you go back to the First Lord's statement in 1901, you will find that he introduced submarines for the first time. We did not want to build submarines, but we were forced to do it by our friends across the Channel. In the explanatory statement of the First Lord in 1901 we find introduced for the first time five submarines, and they were successful when we first tried them. When we built a larger submarine and found by practical experiments in the Irish Sea that we could steer her on a straight course under water with the aid of the periscope, that her compass worked correctly and she was under perfect dynamic control and that generally a large submarine was a complete success, from that moment the field of operation of the capital ship was limited.
During the War we equipped four seaplanes with the locomotive torpedo and sent them to Lemnos with orders to try and torpedo a ship in the Dardanelles. They were quite successful and those pilots torpedoed three ships in the Dardanelles, and those ships had to be moved into shallow water. From the moment of attaining that success with a locomotive Whitehead torpedo we again limited the operation of the capital ship. I want to go a little further than the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) on this point. You must consider the defence of our shores. I do not quite agree with what he said because when you visualise the whole of the requirements of the Navy you must deal with defence. What is the Navy for? It is to protect our shores and our great oversea dominions, our great water-borne trade and to enable us to carry out with safety oversea military expeditions and to be able to relieve our garrisons abroad with safety. That is what we want a Navy for. We also want a Navy to protect our countrymen engaged in commercial enterprises in all parts of the world.
Looking at home defences, what we want are flotillas of submarines, destroyers, mine-layers, very fast craft carrying torpedoes, torpedo aircraft, bomb-dropping aircraft, and scouting air machines. The capital ship does not come into that picture at all, and you can defend our shores perfectly well with all these minor craft. What is the use of the capital ship? I am very sorry the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty did not go into a little more details about the use of the capital ship. The Admiralty have provided for the defence of our shores very efficient submarine flotillas, destroyer flotillas, fast craft carrying torpedoes, and mine-layers, but they have thrown overboard all the naval airmen. The Secretary of State for the Colonies had a great deal to .do with the Royal Air Force, but he has turned it into an Air Military force, and it is very little use to the Navy, and it is being developed exactly like a Guards regiment, with most efficient officers. I think the Secretary of State for the Colonies should be congratulated on the efficiency of the Royal Air Force. Still it is of no use to the Navy. The Secretary of State for the Colonies laughs, but I would like to inform him that in some combined manœeuvres the other day the airmen carrying out the operations with the Fleet could not distinguish between friend and enemy battleships, and when they signalled the position of the submarine and it was plotted on the chart, it was not in the sea, but was at Dorchester. That is not what we wane in the Navy. We must train our naval airmen to work with the Navy. I am certain the destroyer and submarine officers will agree with me that they must work hand in hand with the air Navy—that the air Navy and the water Navy must work together. I challenge the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty to say on the Floor of this House whether the Admiralty are entirely satisfied that naval interests, are being best served by the Air Force to-day. I would like him to tell the Committee that, because it is of some interest.
I now want to deal, if I may, with the half-baked statement of the First Lord of the Admiralty. In his Replacement Programme he says he is going to keep in commission 16 battleships, and he proposes to replace these 16 with four this year. It has not been explained to the Committee that they will probably want four next year. I believe they are to be battleship-cruisers this year, but four battleships will be wanted next year, four the year after, and four the year after that. It is not only four battleships costing, roughly, £6,000,000 each, but it is 16, the building of which will be spread over the next three or four years, at a cost of £100,000,000 sterling. And it is not only £100,000,000 of money; it is what you are going to spend on the bases for these battleships. You will have to shift your base from Scapa Flow into either the Atlantic or the Pacific or both. It will mean that you will require floating docks and all the auxiliary craft to keep this great fleet of battleships, and the cost will represent probably another £100,000,000 of money—in all, £200,000,000 of money in the next few years. Can we afford it? Look at what can be done with a quarter of that amount in building the Tilbury Tunnel and finding employment for men at home; in dealing with social problems which the Labour party has in view, and much which could be done in housing schemes and in helping agriculture. You could do a lot with only a quarter of the money, and at the same time you could lessen our taxes.
We have an extraordinarily great opportunity in the Washington Conference. I submit to every Member of this Committee that we should ask the Admiralty to suspend the building of these battleships, and let our British delegate go over to Washington and lay the key card on the table. He has it. He can say, "We have suspended building battleships in our country and we ask you to do the same." I think the United States would agree. I know France would agree and I think Italy would. Japan might not be so willing, but if we told her we were out for a square deal with the United States and would watch her interests in every way, if we pointed out how certain economic pressure that could be put on Japan, I believe she too would agree to suspend the building of battleships. I submit to this Committee that if our delegate went over there and laid that key card on the table, if he told them we had suspended the building of battleships and asked the other nations to limit the dimensions of any new cruisers to be built and also to limit the operations of submarines so that they should not carry out any baby killing or hospital ship sinking campaigns in the next war, and also asked them to agree to reasonable defence measures. Then we should be able to get out some scheme which would relieve the taxpayers not only of this country, but in all parts of the world. They would all be most grateful to the British delegate if he could do that.
I am afraid I am intervening in this Debate with feelings of considerable diffidence. I have been asked by my colleagues in the Labour party to say something as to what our attitude is generally on this subject which happens to be one of the limited number of subjects on which I and the Labour party are in qualified unity. There is a very grave misconception not only on the part of Members of this House, but among people in the country generally that the Labour party exhausts its whole enthusiasm in singing the "Red Flag" and flapping the White one. I want to point out that that is not so, and that there is no section in this House or in the country more earnest and more determined on the proper, the adequate and even the ample defence of this Realm and its interests abroad. The position we take up is this, I may just as well clear the way by saying exactly what sort of policy lies behind what I am going to say. We do not believe that private enterprise should have any hand or part in the manufacture of implements of war. What we feel is that it is rather idle for any of us to talk about Leagues of Nations and peace and good will on earth as long as individuals are permitted to trade freely in murder machines. We feel that in so far as we possibly can we should begin by adapting such establishments and such conveniences as we have in naval construction and develop them on the right lines.
I want to call attention in the first place to the very first item in this Vote 8—to eliminate which I understand an Amendment will be moved. The item is for the Superintending Admiral in the Dockyard, and the next item is for the Captain's Department in the Dockyard. Together, these ancient mariners are to cost us £47,947—in round figures, £50,000. It is not as if the Admiral Superintendent did anything. He requires a great many people to help him to do nothing. The duties he discharges can by no possibility be of value. He cannot do anything useful as director of the dockyard, simply because he has neither the experience nor the knowledge nor the technical training which would make him an efficient director of construction or of repair in a dockyard or shipyard. These gentlemen may have been and no doubt were execellent and admirable people on the quarter deck. They know all about discipline, but it is not the sort of discipline that is required in workshops. I suggest that in the beginning of the re-organisation of our dockyard administration the first thing that will have to be done will be to get rid of all these admirals and captains. I do not mean to get rid of them entirely, but to keep them outside the dockyards. These instances are typical and might be multiplied almost indefinitely. One could go through and pick out scores of items equally superfluous, equally wasteful, and equally mischievous. It seems to me that our dockyards ought to be better equipped than they are and better managed as well-Everything in connection with our dockyard administration requires drastic reform, and I suggest this as a preliminary to that reform.
I want to say a word or two about battleship building. If the experts had been unanimous, I should scarcely have dared to have assumed the temerity of expressing an opinion on so complicated and so important a subject, but after listening to the hon. and gallant Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter) I have come to the conclusion that the naval authorities are not altogether unanimous, and if those who know some thing at least about naval affairs seem to be divided, I am not at all sure that it is an impertinence for any person with my very limited qualifications to take sides. At any rate, I am going to take sides with the people who do not want the battleships. I feel certain, also, that that greatest of all naval authorities, "Sir Percy Scott, Midshipman," was just about right when he said they were "no damned good." There is something peculiar in the way in which the Estimates have been presented to the House, and I want to enter an emphatic protest against this system of token votes, for it is, after all, only a token vote. The Committee is asked to vote £2,500,000 for new construction to replace what are called obsolescent ships. But what are you going to ask for next year for these four ships? Will the Parliamentary Secretary tell us how much battleship he is going to get for £2,500,000? Why, he will hardly get the armour plate templets. What happens is that the Committee is being asked apparently for £2,500,000, but in really for a blank cheque which it may fill up to £100,000,000. Each of these vessels will cost seven, eight, or it may possibly be nine millions before they are completed. You cannot send any one of them into action without a flotilla of auxiliaries, and every one of those ships is going to cost you, roughly, £23,000,000 each. [HON MEMBERS: '"Oh!"] Hon. Members may laugh. They are only the people who make a lot of fuss about somebody's War bonus, and are always ready to plunge their hands, or anyone else's, into the public pocket when it suits their own purpose and helps their own friends.
When these ships are afloat and in commission, I believe that the longest life of one of them—that is to say, its actual active life, until it becomes obsolete or obsolescent—is eight years; and I am not at all sure that that life of eight years does not begin from the birth of the ship's design, not from the day when it is first afloat. For the four years during which it is an active and efficient unit of the Navy, every ship is going to cost £250,000 in upkeep. That means that these four ships, without any more, are going to cost the country something approximating to £100,000,000. The hon. and gallant Member for Hertford said that four more will be asked for next year, and four more the year after, and they will be made longer and improved every time, so that they will cost more and more money. And it is said that this is not competition. What is it then? Un happily for the peace of the world, there is an institution in this country, and a similar institution in America, and I daresay one in Japan too, known as an armanent ring. It seems to me that there can be no real, valid excuse for the building of these ships, except that it is done for the benefit of the armament ring in this country. There was an item in last year's Estimates for £50,000 to maintain the plant of the armament ring—a subsidy. Subsidies have gone out of fashion this year. People outside criticise subsidies very harshly. I know that there is a difficulty about some subsidies, in cases in which working people might get some of them. Those are automatically condemned But you gave the armament ring £50,000 last year to maintain its plant.
I do not want to be immoderate; I want to deal with this subject as temperately as I possibly can. I would ask the Committee to observe this: Everyone knows and understands that the armament ring, or the armament firms, are the only people who can make heavy armour and heavy guns. In order to be able to make them, they have sunk countless millions in the largest, and heaviest, and most expensive plant. Hence it has been that they have had to keep prices up, and keep them up abnormally. I believe that the following is about their method. The Admiralty, by arrangement with the armament ring, always take the lowest tender; so the armament-ring firms, when the tenders are issued to them, meet and say, "What are we going to charge for this job?" Say, for the sake of illustration, that it is £1,000,000. That is agreed; £1,000,000 is to be the price. Now, whose turn is it? It was A's turn last year; therefore, it is B's turn now. B, therefore, puts in his estimate at £1,000,000, and all the others put theirs in at something more; and B gets the job.
On a point of Order. We shall be discussing armaments on Vote 9. Is it in order for the hon. Member to take up all this time in discussing armaments now?
I think the hon. Member is in order.
I thought I was in order. If I have transgressed at all it was quite unintentionally. I got up for the purpose of saying something about the armament ring, and I cannot help who in the Committee happens to be a friend of the armament ring. By means of procedure of this kind, the armament ring kept up the price of armour to £62 a ton before the War, when it was perfectly well known by every engineer in the country that it could be supplied at a reasonable profit for about £28. What was the reason, and what is the reason, why the armament ring have to make such enormous charges? They must realise something on the vast amount of capital—never mind where they got it from—which they have sunk in this most costly plant. The plant had to be maintained at the public expense last year. This year you could not give them another subsidy, and I suggest that, because you could not give them another subsidy, you found you had to give them some ships to build, and that there can be no other reason for building capital ships now.
With those higher and more exalted reasons that have been dealt with, I have very little concern. They are safer in the hands of those who can speak with more authority than I can claim, and with more eloquence than I possess. But, while I should be the last man to inveigle the Committee into a controversy about the difference between private enterprise and collectivism, I do urge that the supply of armaments and the supply of munitions, just as is the supply of poison, is something that is essentially outside the ambit of any conveivable controversy of that nature. It is something for which every nation should be absolutely responsible as a nation, through its Government. No person should be allowed to distribute murderous mechanisms to anyone in the world at any price they can get, or to supply some small and ambitious nation with implements of war on the hire system—for that is what it amounts to. I do not know how far the ramifications of some of these great firms may extend, or how far they have been restricted, but I have always wondered, while I have no means of proving it—nor has, I think, anyone else any means of disproving it—whether the torpedo that sank the "Lusi- tania" was or was not made on British machinery, laid down by British capital. I should think the possibilities are largely in favour of the contention that it was. It was most probably made at Fiume—
I do not want to interrupt the hon. Member, but perhaps he is not aware of the fact that the German torpedoes were of a totally different size from ours.
Pretty generally, it seems to me, apart from the specific question that we are now discussing, that the influence of the great armament contractors is a preponderating one at the Admiralty, and that the Navy is probably less controlled by the Board of Admiralty than it is through the medium of the dictation of the armament ring. It seems to me that all our talk about goodwill and peace on earth is mere baby babble as long as armament rings exist in this or any other country. It is not fair to blame these people for what they are doing. It is fair, however, to blame ourselves for permitting such a system to continue. What I hope will arise, if not immediately, then presently, out of this discussion, is that we shall begin to assume the great responsibility of supplying our own means of defence under the control of the State and in Government establishments. Private enterprise, whatever its virtues may be in other respects, should have no place in a supply of this kind. This is one of the requirements which, it seems to me, should be the sole and exclusive responsibility of the State in this and in every other country.
What prevents an understanding between this nation, the American nation, and the Japanese nation? I suppose that Japan and America are the potential enemies to which we can look. We need not trouble about Germany for another 100 years. Germany has no steel now, we have taken it all away from her. It is hardly likely that Russia will develop anything for very many years to come. If you are going into competition, or are going to excite competition, or acquiesce in competition, with America, you are beaten at the jump. America's mineral resources, developed and undeveloped, are incalculable and inexhaustible. Ours are not. We cannot afford to compete, but we can afford, and, indeed, it is our duty, to come to an understanding with these people in respect of armaments. You need not trouble about Japan; you can tell Japan what she has got to do. If America and Britain, the two great steel-producing nations of the world, come to an arrangement between themselves, they can prevent Japan, or any other country that is not a steel-producing country, from copying them in any way or rivalling them in any degree. That would be just as easy as, I contend, an understanding with America would be easy. It is upon these lines that I and my colleagues on these Benches desire to see this matter developed. We shall oppose this Vote, simply because it seems to us that it is something which is unnecessary and wasteful, and that you are committing, by a most disingenuous process, the taxpayers of this country to an almost incalculable burden in the years to come, for no particular purpose except that of putting profits into the pockets of people who have too much there already.
6.0 P.M
I am very glad to be able to speak immediately after the hon. Member who has just sat down, and I do so first in connection with his attack on armament firms. I have the honour to be associated with an armament firm, and I know that which I am going to talk about. It was obvious to me throughout the hon. Member's speech that he really knows nothing about the subject at all. The origin of the armament firms was the utter failure of Government establishments to advance with the times. We were being left absolutely behind until the great firm of Armstrong, Whitworth and Company came into existence, and was followed by the firm of Vickers and that with which I am associated. The hon. Member has particularly referred to a ring associated with armour. There is a ring, and the Admiralty are part of it. Several years before the War the prices of armour were gone into most thoroughly at the Admiralty at a meeting of all the five firms who make armour. They were had up to the Admiralty and every item in its manufacture was closely investigated by the people at the Admiralty, who thoroughly understood what they were talking about, and the prices are controlled absolutely. And the Admiralty are perfectly free. They can go to France for armour if they can get as good, but they know they cannot. They can go to the United States if they can get as good, but they know they cannot. There is no armour superior to the British, but the price of it is absolutely in the hands of the British Admiralty. So it is with guns. And as to the armament firms bringing about this competition in armaments the thing is simply ludicrous. What the armament firms have done is to save this country from destruction, and if it had not been for them God knows where we should have been to-day. My firm only started gun building in 1907, and in the course of the War we produced upwards of 5,000 guns of every sort, from 15-inch down to 18-pounders. If there had not been firms competent to do that, where should we have been? That is quite enough about armament firms.
Now I turn to the other questions of battleships and so on. I should like to congratulate my hon. and gallant Friend (Rear-Admiral Sueter) on the line he took, and it is very much the same line that I took in March, before the Navy Estimates came out, when I deprecated all unnecessary shipbuilding, and any competition whatever with the United States and Japan, and I prayed that we might not build ships this year. I am a confirmed believer in the surface ship and the gun as the ultimate factors in naval warfare. I am not going into the arguments. I think they are fairly obvious. But if the surface ship and the gun are the deciding factors we have to go to the capital ship which can meet any other, and will not be afraid to do so. So that given that the capital ship is necessary—and I assert that it is—the Admiralty are perfectly right to pursue the course they are pursuing in building these ships for just so long as other nations are in advance of us. We must not fall behind other nations. I am not at all sure that the four ships we are building this year do supply us. But let me make my position clear. I said it was unnecessary to build any ships this year. I am still of that opinion, because I say these ships can be built in two and a-half years, whereas the Admiralty are calculating on three and a-half years to complete them. Furthermore, the orders for them are not placed yet. Probably they will not be placed until 1st October. That brings us right into the middle of 1925 before they are completed. The Admiralty policy is exactly what I said. I said we were safe until 1925, and for that reason we need not build ships this year, because we can build them in two and a-half years. I also said that we have at the Admiralty expert advisers who know the position exactly as to the powers of production of the shipbuilding firms, and if they say these ships cannot be produced in two and a-half years owing to their new system of construction, or whatever it may be, I waive my opinion. If the Admiralty tell us these ships are going to take this time, I am perfectly satisfied. I uphold entirely what they are doing.
Again, the question is what these ships are for—we have heard a good deal on that subject—and whether they could not be replaced by submarines or flying craft. The first thing this country has to do is to remember that we are not dealing with the North Sea any longer. When we go into the Pacific we are dealing with 5,000 miles, and that sort of distance. How are any seaplanes, or planes of any sort, going to work three or four thousand miles? They have to be carried in ships, and if they are going to be carried in any numbers, it means a very large number of ships. I was amused at an hon. Member on the Air Estimates saying that all the destroyers at Jutland might have been replaced by 5,000 aeroplanes at .no greater expense. He quite overlooked the fact that each ship only carries 25 of such aeroplanes and it would have meant 200 ships to carry 5,000. That is the sort of foolish argument I hear occasionally in the House. There is no question whatever that this big capital ship is essential where you come to such enormous distances as there will be in future warfare. All our trade routes to India, China or Japan cover thousands of miles, where in the North Sea we were dealing with hundreds. Furthermore, the "Lion" at the Battle of the Doggerbank was very badly wounded, and could only just crawl back to the Tyne over the 300 miles she had to cross in a sinking condition.
The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned that the; design we are putting forward will avoid increasing the docking accommodation. If the "Lion" had had to crawl back in a sinking condition not 300 miles, but the 1,800 miles that there are for example between Shushima and Hongkong, she would never reach there. That is the reason why we have to consider not only the nature of the ship we are going to use, but the possibilities of docking heir. And even if she did get to Hongkong there is no dock which would take her. So that if we are going to use these ships in Japanese waters, there will have to be docks at Hongkong to take them. The Committee will perhaps be surprised to know that there is no British dock outside the United Kingdom which will even take the "Hood," except one at Quebec which is utterly useless from the strategic point of view. So that in addition to this shipbuilding programme, we must accept the fact that it means providing new bases and new docks, in addition to all the flotillas and so on which have been mentioned. The only point I am a little in doubt about is whether these four ships really are enough. We are going to meet the Japanese' and the Americans at this conference at Washington, which I believe is to be in November. Each party will take into that conference a definite programme. They will say: "We are building these ships, and our programme is to build these in addition, and it is our intention to go on with them." The Japanese intention is to build eight battle cruisers, and eight battleships, and at present we only know that we are going to build four. I think it would be just as well, if we are going to meet these other nations with larger programmes, if we made it quite clear that we had others in view, and in fact actually arranged for, and if the Admiralty wish to put forward an additional programme, such as four next year, it will be as well for them to do so quickly before they go to this Conference, and if they do, I shall certainly support them.
It is about 12 years since I first addressed the House on the Armament Vote, and I remember when I sat down the late Sir Charles Dilke came to me and, in that kindly way which always endeared him to young Members of the House, gave me the advice that it was most unwise to touch on questions of a technical nature in Debate. It would seem, following what we have heard to-day, that all that has been altered. There is danger when Parliament deals with matters which are the province of the experts, and I only wish to instance it in the case of the United States when Congress voted credits for two ships, the "South Carolina" and the "Michigan," on condition that they were not to exceed 16,000 tons, which was an interference with the knowledge that only experts could possess where you are dealing with the safety of a country. On the other hand, there are advantages in taking up the attitude this Committee has done to-day, in that if that argument were advanced it would be abrogating our right of dealing with expenditure in a time that is really unique. Every great war leaves as a legacy international problems of difficulty, and I think there is none more difficult to a country such as ours than that of defence. The Committee has to come to a decision to-day which, taken one way, will mean a very vast expenditure at a time we can least afford it. Taken in the other way, it might, if our decision were wrong, mean placing our national safety in jeopardy.
What are the special conditions that distinguish this Debate from others which have taken place on the same Vote before the War? I think the first is that our Navy has had the opportunity of going through the final arbitrament of battle, and we are able, therefore, to judge to some extent what is the value of modern warships. A second very important point, and one which I am rather surprised my hon. and gallant Friend (Mr. Amery) did not make, is that it is now five years since the British Admiralty have laid down an armoured ship of any description. That is a fact, I believe, absolutely without precedent since the days when armoured vessels were first introduced. We have to bear those two facts in mind, but there are others. The next, and one of very vast importance, is that the balance of power upon which all pre-War standards of naval strength were based has been entirely shattered by the War. There is a fourth one, which is so frequently forgotten in our naval Debates, and that is that our naval strength is really settled by our foreign policy. It is the Foreign Office that, first of all, dictates where a potential enemy is likely to lie, and upon their advice it is for us to decide how much we shall spend on naval and other defence to meet the possible resultant danger. Finally, the Dominions are now taking an infinitely wider interest in general defence. Before the War, though we had Imperial Conferences, the Committee will remember that the Dominions were only just beginning to appreciate that it was up to them to take some share in the vast expenditure necessary for defending them as integral parts of the British Empire. Now, however, although we have not had a full report as to what the agreements are, we have heard hopeful news from the Parliamentary Secretary upon which we may hope that the Empire as a whole will take its proper share in the defence that is for one and all.
The problem that we have to settle to-day is, are capital ships necessary and, if so, how many of them? I do not propose to make a speech that would be more fitting as a lecture in the Royal United Service's Institute, but there are certain features which are outside the province of the expert and within our province as Members of Parliament, who have to adjudicate upon naval expenditure. The Parliamentary Secretary claimed that his speech had been very full and informative, but, having made a study of naval policy, I can tell him that, on the whole, his speech was not as informative as he thinks, and that we have had infinitely more detail on former occasions when capital ships were to be laid down than that which he gave to-day. He referred to the "Hood" as being a vessel designed upon the results of the Battle of Jutland. If that is so, she is the only ship at present completed in the world which bears in her design the results of actions at sea. That being so, if every vessel prior to the "Hood" is of pre-War design, we must not regard the Navies of America and Japan on a comparative basis at all. On that point it would have been more helpful to the Committee, and infinitely more helpful to the world at large, if the hon. Member had stated perfectly definitely that in our programme of naval construction we are not paying consideration to any other fleet whatsoever. That statement would have been of vast advantage to the Conference that is to take place at Washington.
I cannot help deploring the fact that attention is being concentrated entirely upon the capital ship. What this Committee has to bear in mind is that the Navy is a marvellously diverse arm, containing a very large number of different types of vessels, which to be effective as national defence have to be used in efficient unison. It would be as futile to have nothing but Dreadnoughts in the fleet as it would be if the Army was composed solely of artillery. The Parliamentary Secretary, in dealing with this problem, would have been well advised to have given the Committee some little statement as to how we stand in the matter of cruisers, destroyers and subsidiary craft. I mention it for this reason, that one of the speakers who preceded me, I think it was the hon. Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Rose), made some reference to the extraordinary cost of fitting out these four new capital units with all their ancillaries. If the Parliamentary Secretary had informed us, as he might well have done, that at present, in the matter of light cruisers, destroyers and submarines, actually and effectively in commission or capable of being commissioned at the shortest possible notice, we stand in a position of pre-eminence we never held prior to the War, that would have settled some of the arguments against the expense of building these four new vessels.
We have the figures in the return.
Yes, but that return, like all returns, can be read in a dozen different ways. I have spent a lot of my time writing returns for various technical books, and I know how difficult it is to give figures to prove one thing that cannot be disproved by reading them in another way. The decision as to whether or not we should have capital ships is not really one to be debated in this House at all. That is the one technical point which we have to leave entirely to the experts at the Admiralty. They have at their fingers ends the results of the War at sea, and we can scarcely expect them to come here and to divulge for our edification and the edification of the naval world at large and the edification of our potential enemies, if such exist, the lessons which they have learned, and which they have garnered up in order to develop the new designs which they are now discussing. Accepting the position that the battleship is for the present to go on, and it seems to me that it must do so, let us see whether there is any possible way of preventing in the future the vast expenditure which these capital ships incur. Up to now I may have led the Committee to think that I entirely approve of these four ships being laid down. I am not sure that I do. In practice there are three things that might possibly help to stop what is, after all, ruinous expenditure on armaments. The first is the development of the League of Nations. I frankly say that I see no very great hope there for the moment. We can scarcely wait and jeopardise our national security while they are getting the League of Nations strong enough to prevent competition in battle craft. The second thing that might prevent this vast expenditure is a successful outcome of the Conference at Washington. It is all very hopeful, but there again we can scarcely rely upon what is entirely problematical, especially in view of the fact that two of the great nations that are going to Washington to discuss this problem are, unfortunately it must be admitted, building against one another, namely, the United States and Japan.
The third point, and it has been dealt with by the hon. and gallant Member for Herts (Rear-Admiral Sueter) and the hon. and gallant Member for Glasgow (Rear-Admiral Adair) is whether or not there has been developed by modern inventiveness some military arm to negative the capital ship. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hertford believes in aircraft, but it would be very unwise now for us to stop building surface vessels merely on the strength of the knowledge we have from what aircraft did during the War. He referred—and I know as much about the details of these things as he does—to the three seaplanes that went out and successfully attacked with 14-inch torpedoes, which is an entirely obsolete and light weapon, and would have no effect whatever against the "Hood." You would have to have a much bigger plane if you were to carry a 21-inch torpedo. These seaplanes went out and launched their weapons in a perfectly calm sea against absolutely stationary vessels, in which the crews were entirely undisciplined and were not firing back at them. That sort of thing is not going to take place in war time. Nor are we to be influenced by the fact that recently on a German vessel 48 per cent. of hits were gained by bombs from aircraft. Those aircraft were not being fired back at. Moreover, the ship was not then in motion. I do not say that in course of time the development of aircraft will not make it possible for us to do away with this enormous expenditure, but at the present time I am sure that my hon. and gallant Friend when he reads the report of his speech in the OFFICIAL REPORT tomorrow will be sorry that he used his great authority to prevent the construction of these very necessary capital ships.
With regard to submarines, while I admit that during the War we were within an ace of being beaten by the submarine, we must not forget that later during the War the submarine was itself nearly beaten off the seas. The fact that the submarine menace was so serious brought out the inventive genius of men at the Amiralty. There is another point in favour of building these large vessels, and it is one which we ought to bear in mind. We have a far-flung Empire. This country, either through fate or national acquisitiveness, has managed to obtain hostages to fortune in the shape of Colonies and Dominions in every quarter of the world. If war comes, we cannot destroy these Colonies and Dominions. We cannot blow them up or sink them. Therefore we have either to defend them or to give them to the other side. If we give them up to a potential enemy, we are providing that potential enemy with valuable stepping-stones towards the heart of the Empire. On whatever type of vessels you fly your flag, you must have something solid to support your claim, if necessary, by the arbitrament of battle, and aircraft, cruisers, and submarines alone will not do. All these facts, and more technical ones, have been taken into consideration by the Committee over which the late Leader of the House presided, and for my part, without demur, I accept the opinion that has been expressed and the decision arrived at by the Board of Admiralty that capital ships are necessary.
This Committee ought to be warned in one regard. In the first place, we have heard all sorts of figures suggested as to the cost of these new capital ships. I think the right hon. Member for Paisley suggested £6,000,000 each. £6,000,000 is about the price of the "Hood." The price is much more likely to be £8,000,000. That is the actual cost, but each ship will cost infinitely more than that, since we are introducing a new gun for the first time. For every four guns carried you have to have one new gun in reserve. That will be a very substantial cost. For the cost of a pair of 15-in. guns with their mountings to-day you could have brought one destroyer before the War. In addition, you must have all the different desiderata that are required for a vessel as she goes into commission. The annual upkeep will be about £750,000 to £800,000 a year. That is a minimum. In addition, the vessels will require their annual refit, which will mean another £1,000,000. Therefore, these four new vessels will cost us about £40,000,000, and every four ships of similar size will cost the same amount. It has been decided that the capital ship must go on and that it must be a big ship. The "big" ship is a relative term. There is no limit yet to the size of the ship, and it would be ridiculous for us, since we are discussing the safety of the Empire, to suggest a limit. We do not know how big it is going to become or how costly. If we are told by those on whom we rely that these vessels are essential for the defence and safety of the Empire, then the money has to be found. The point is, how many of these vessels do we require? We have had from the Parliamentary Secretary a very plain and very clear statement, in which he said that these new capital ships are purely replacement vessels. It is said that they will take from three to three and a half years to build, but we know that they will take nearly four or four and a half years to build. It will be very unusual if they are built within contract time. We can be thankful that they are not to be built in the dockyards, for never except on one occasion has an armoured dockyard built ship been as cheap as a contract built ship of similar type.
No, no.
Is the hon. and gallant Member in order in making a statement which he cannot prove to be true, and which I can prove to be untrue?
If every statement that cannot be proved to be true is to be out of order there would not be much to be debated.
I hope that is not a reflection on me. I am particularly careful where these naval matters are concerned not to make statements that I cannot prove to be true.
What you have said is inaccurate.
It is by no means inaccurate.
I say it is.
Whether these ships are replacement ships or not, they must be regarded as experimental. We have had only one vessel designed to some extent on the results of the War up to date, and that is the "Hood." That being so, these four vessels are going to incorporate in their design features that have never been applied to warship construction before. In the past there have been all classes of building in which it has been found that certain ships have been successful while others have been duds. We do not want that when we are spending £10,000,000 apiece on ships.
What I would like is to see two vessels laid down now, and those vessels put one against the other, and then, as my hon, and gallant Friend below says, build, if necessary, the others for next year, basing what you do on the experience that we should have had. By that time we shall have completed the Conference at Washington, and I hope, also, the country will have recovered some of its prosperity. All these reasons lead to the conclusion that it would be well for the time to reduce those four ships to two. If it were a question of building four ships instead of two, I should vote in favour of the four. I should vote for the Government in favour of having over-strength rather than under-strength, but it would be a good thing if we had from the Admiralty an assurance that they will not proceed with all these ships unless they are absolutely convinced that they are required. Naval strength is a very fugitive thing. One does not know what is going to happen. If a collision between America and Japan led to any cataclysm, we should not require even those four vessels, but in existing conditions, I support the construction of capital ships and I shall vote for these four, cost what they may, though I would like to see these four reduced to two for the present.
I beg to move that the Vote be reduced by £1,000.
I think that I can safely leave the question of the Navy to the naval and technical experts who have already spoken, including the hon. Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Rose). But there is one aspect of the building of these ships which has not been touched on. In reference to what has been said on behalf of the Anti-Waste party, if you have to maintain a naval force or any force it is the worst form of waste to pay large sums of money to maintain a force which, when you have to use it, you find is not adequate. That is really at the bottom of the proposals made by the staff of the Admiralty when they recommend the replacing of obsolescent ships. They realise clearly, as the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Amery) realises, that however high the moral and the training of officers and men may be, unless they have adequate resources at their command, when the time for action comes they feel that they are going to be sacrificed. We have seen that ourselves during the last War, and we ought to have learned the lesson. The question how big the Navy is to be depends on the policy of the Government as carried out by the Foreign Office. If you accept that, it is for the Admiralty to say to the Cabinet how many ships they require to carry out the policy of the Government. If that policy is maintained by the Government and they accept the Admiralty recommendation, there is only one way of doing it, and that is by accepting frankly the Naval Estimates of ships required which are made by the staff at the Admiralty, or let us frankly change the staff and put in its place people who will say what we require them to say.
In reference to these four ships, I do not care about any question of a two-Power or one-Power or a half-Power standard. What does matter to me is that the officers and men of our Navy when they go to sea and have to fight shall be in ships of proper construction and fitted with the best equipment that is possible. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) made one remark which as an ex-naval officer I ought to challenge. I cannot quote the exact words, but he said that we were faced with a panic which was being engineered by naval experts. Nothing could be further from the truth. If the naval experts really got to work they could create a panic, but it is because they have been silent that we are in this position, that there is a tendency even in this House to decry the value of the Navy. The right hon. Gentleman went further and said that the wicked competition in shipbuilding in the past had been due to the wild cries and alarms, but a few sentences before that he pointed out that he had approved of and pressed the construction of the Navy which had been our safeguard during the Great War. The two statements of the right hon. Gentleman cannot possibly be reconciled. I trust that when we come to a later Vote that the sympathetic words of the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Amery) regarding the officers and men of the Navy shall be translated into deeds. I am not allowed to trench on that now, but the hon. Gentleman gave me an opening by referring to their high moral and good standard, and I trust that we shall have a chance of giving practical effect to what his words convey.
We had a very interesting discussion this afternoon, made especially interesting by the gallant Admirals who have taken part in it, and especially by my hon. and gallant Friend (Sir R. Hall). I agree with him that the expenditure on armaments must depend on policy. I have been too long at the Admiralty not to be impregnated by the idea that the vital offensive and defensive power of this country must rest with the Navy; but the defensive power is being sapped by the extravagant policy of the Government. They are spending this year £237,000,000 on armaments, and the nation cannot afford it. The amount for the Navy and Air is £110,000,000, and for the Army, £126,000,000. The pre-War expenditure was £86,000,000 for Navy, Army, and Air. This is a danger to the naval defence of the country, because we are frittering away our financial resources upon extravagant expenditure. At the present moment we are, it seems to me, in a state of flux with regard to naval warfare. It would not be in order for me to speak of land warfare, but a revolution has been created by the experience of the late War. Before the late War it was surface ships. Since the War and during the War there has been under-water ships and the Navy in the air. I have expressed a very strong opinion all the way through, ever since December, 1919, that the Air Force, instead of being as it was under my right hon. Friend the Secretary for the Colonies (Mr. Churchill) and, as he was, the Secretary for Air, should have been under the First Lord of the Admiralty. The two forces should be worked in conjunction. I do not think that the separation is sound economic policy. I will not go further into this because it would be out of order.
The Vote now before us is a shipbuilding Vote which governs future naval expenditure. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Amery) who introduced this Vote says that we have allowed the Navy to fall below the safety line, and yet for all that I think that we have spent £80,000,000 or £90,000,000 on it last year. This is a time when the country is thinking about finance. I may illustrate this by a very illuminating remark which was made to me the day before yesterday in a very remote village in Devonshire. I was asked, "Do you think that the Post Office Savings Bank deposits are safe?" That is what the country is thinking about.
As long as you have got a Navy.
We should be able to pay for it too. If you have allowed the Navy to fall below safety and you are spending this enormous sum, something is wrong somewhere. If your Navy is not sufficiently strong to-day to protect the vital interests of the Empire after you have spent these sums, I do not know what those gentlemen were doing at the Peace Conference which was held only two years ago. Are we really to believe that the British Empire is in naval danger? If this is so, seeing that the Peace Treaty was only settled two years ago, somebody should be scrapped who signed that Peace Treaty. If this country is in danger to-day, if we are to have these wars and rumours of wars and the Navy has fallen below safety strength two years after the most devastating war in history, who are responsible? It must be the gentlemen who signed the Peace Treaty. What does my right hon. Friend (Mr. Churchill) say to this? I hope that he will reply later on. We are asked to vote this afternoon money for four capital ships. My hon. Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Burgoyne) has told us that these ships will cost something like £40,000,000. Is this the beginning of a programme? My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter) made an admirable speech in which he asked the question, "Are these four ships the commencement of a building programme of capital ships?" If so, have you counted the expense? Are you going on spending £40,000,000? Is this the policy of the Admiralty, or have the Admiralty or the Government any policy at all?
You could delay these ships and still have them ready for the Spring of 1925. I remember that the late Lord Fisher always insisted upon building few ships and building them fast. That is perfectly sound, because you embody the latest designs. He insisted that ships could be built in two years. You could build these ships and give the Royal Dockyards a chance. You could enlarge the slips. After all, you are building ships for which you have no accommodation in the Royal Dockyards. More than that, you are going to build ships which are limited, curbed, cribbed, and confined by the existing accommodation. I thought the Parliamentary Secretary would give us full details of the ships. If the Admiralty do not wish to give the information, I do not wish to ask for it, but I put this point to the Government: Are they supporting the League of Nations or are they not? Article 8 of the Covenant of the League of Nations states clearly that the members of the League undertake to exchange full and frank information as to the scale of their armaments, and of their military, naval and air programme. Britain signed that Covenant; Japan signed it. Are you in earnest about the League of Nations? If you are in earnest, have you given this full and frank information? You cannot ride two horses, the war horse and the League of Nations horse.
Finance is the most insistent thing today. I say that with regard to these ships. More important even than the laying down of capital ships to-day is the rehabilitation of our finance. That is the first essential. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] My hon. Friends talk very easily. Let them wait a year or two, and they will find what is the financial situation of the country. I ask a further question. You are going to build these enormous ships. What is their objective? Where are you going to use them? What are your potential enemies? The right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) said that we were once building against France, and then France and Russia, and then came the German menace. But the menace from those nations was in the narrow waters of Europe. You are not building to-day for the narrow waters of Europe. There are no capital ships being built to-day in Europe. Where are you going to use these ships? I ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies what facilities he has in the Pacific, in Japan, or in America, for docking these ships, assuming that they are sent across there? Does anyone believe that any of these ships can ever be sent thousands of miles from these shores? No naval expert would believe such a thing for a moment. They cannot be sent away. Where are you going to use them and against whom? Are you going to use them against America?
A war between Britain and America to me would be a collapse of our present civilisation. Whatever may be said, I have not the smallest doubt about the genuineness of American friendship for this country. If America had not come into the War the Allies would not have won the War in so complete a fashion as they were able to do. America has sent us true friends in her Ambassadors, Mr. Page, Mr. Davis, and now Colonel Harvey. I believe President Harding is one of the truest friends this country ever had. He has called a conference on disarmament. I understand the Prime Minister is to attend. I hope he will do so. The Prime Minister is going as a kind of dove of peace, escorted by four post-War super-Dreadnoughts. I really do not understand the policy of the Government in these matters. I want to examine still further the utility of these great ships. If there was one subject more than another which engaged the attention of the Admiralty during the War, it was not defence against German capital ships but defence against German submarines. The food supply of this country was in danger. The Germans knew it, and they attacked us in our weakest place. Will these new capital ships protect our food supplies? I hope I shall have an answer. Some hon. Members know how far capital ships can go without a screen of destroyers.
April of 1917was the most critical period of the War. British food supplies were being successfully attacked. There was a Grand Fleet, of which we had all reason to be proud, under a distinguished Admiral, Lord Beatty, at Scapa Flow to the North of Scotland. But the fate of the British Empire was being decided on the South-West corner of Ireland by German submarines. 875,000 tons of shipping were sunk in the month of April, 1917, when America came into the War. I hope all hon. Members will read a book by that very good friend of this country, Admiral Sims. I do not believe that Britain had a truer friend, even among her own sons, than Admiral Sims. He said:
7.0 P.M.
I must ask a question about the dockyards. Has the Admiralty taken into account the present location of our dockyards, and the possibility of defending them against aircraft? Is it not essential that the Admiralty and the Air should work in close contact in this matter? Suppose you have a dockyard in a position which can be bombed by enemy aircraft. That is a matter about which the Admiralty ought to think. I would give the Admiralty all the money they wish to have in order to investigate such matters. The Admiralty is maintaining an enormous Navy ashore in the dockyards and the out-port establishments. These four capital ships are not even to be built there. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty gave me figures on 4th July as to the enormous numbers of people employed in the dockyards. In July, 1914, when the German menace was at its height the number of persons employed at the Admiralty out-port establishments was approximately 58,000 men. The present corresponding number is 78,000 men. What possible excuse is there for employing 20,000 more men in the dockyards? These questions must be answered. If we had a real Opposition in this House they would be answered. But we have not got a real Opposition, and I regret it. A regular Opposition would compel an answer to these questions, but, of course, the Government can do what they like. What is the reason for employing 20,000 men more in the out-port establishments than before the War? Yet withal, you are actually not going to build any of these ships in the dockyards. Will anybody tell me that these men in these dockyards can really be engaged in productive work for the defence of the Empire?
Certainly they are.
I put my hon. Friend aside. He and I have had many a spar on this point, and I agree that there is one product which they send to Westminster, and that is my hon. Friend. The Secretary of State for the Colonies remembers that during the early part of the War he directed some of his energies to establishing a new cordite factory down by Bournemouth at Holton Heath. What has happened now, are you keeping it on? You have got all these explosive factories—
I do not see that cordite factories come within this Vote. The right hon. Gentleman should keep close to the Vote.
I thought that on Vote 8 we had always been accustomed to discuss policy. I think I could find money in these Naval Estimates for the Holton Heath cordite factory. I think it is one of the outpost establishments.
I understand that that arises on Vote 10. Of course anything in regard to the policy as to dockyards could be discussed on a very wide scale, but when there is a specific item which comes in on another Vote there ought to be a specific discussion.
I think Vote 10 simply deals with the question of buildings, but I will not infringe your ruling, I am only asking these questions in the general interests of economy in order to know if the country's money is being properly spent. I feel strongly that you have too many men now employed. I am quite willing to say that it is very easy to stand in this Box and criticise. I know the difficulties that face the Admiralty, I know that any man who does his duty at the Admiralty will meet with much opposition and will have to put a great many people out of not too arduous jbs, but it has to be done. We cannot go on with our present financial scale of expenditure. I do not believe we shall ever be able to get rid of these difficulties until we get it in the heads of the people of this country that Government expenditure is, on the whole, bad, and should be reduced to the lowest limits. At the present moment everybody is clamouring for Government expenditure, and thinks it is good. We have to get a different spirit into our people. If my right hon. Friend who moved this reduction goes to a division I shall support him, because I do not believe that these four capital ships will give the fighting, the defensive and the offensive value for the cost involved in their construction.
I only wish to offer a few observations on that portion of the statement of the Financial Secretary which relates to Pembroke Dockyard. We heard with very considerable satisfaction that the Admiralty had decided to reverse to a certain extent the proposal they originally brought forward on the introduction of the Navy Estimates for the closing of this dockyard. While to a very large extent that would mitigate very many of the hardships that would have resulted if such a policy were carried out, I think even now they have submitted Pembroke Dockyard to a very drastic process of reduction not altogether justified by the circumstances of the case. I would remind the Committee of some of the reasons adduced at the time the Navy Estimates were first introduced in favour of the closing of this dockyard. They were really only two, one being economy and the second that there were more dockyards than were necessary for the present needs of the Navy. On the question of economy, the Admiralty were not able to make out any case at all. The fact that they have so far met the views expressed by withdrawing the proposal for closing the yard is sufficient evidence of that. The question of economy, as illustrated by figures, may be so placed as to prove almost anything. If I wanted to go into further detail I should be quite able to show, without any doubt, that not only would there be no economy in closing this yard, but that the reverse would actually be the case.
The other reason adduced was that there were too many dockyards for the needs of the Fleet. Let us examine that for a moment. The right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) quoted the number of men employed in the dock yards to-day, or, rather, in all the home outposts of the Navy, as being 20,000 in excess of the pre-War number. If we take the number which applies to the actual work in the dockyards alone, leaving out the other establishments which come under the designation of outposts, we find that there are in the personnel of the dockyards provided for in the Estimates 43,000 men, which, in the Supplementary Estimates before the Committee to-day, has been increased to 44,000. Leaving Haulbowline out of the question for the moment, that gives an average of about 6,200 men for each of the seven dockyards now maintained, and includes the large new dockyard establishment at Rosyth. Before the War the corresponding number of men on the personnel of the dockyards was 34,500, or an average of about 5,900 for each of the six dockyards then in existence. Taking the needs of the Navy, as laid down in the Admiralty Estimates—and it is understood that these needs are on the basis of a reduced fleet—you have more men per dockyard in the country to-day than before the War. That appears to me to be an adequate and sufficient reason for not reducing the personnel in any one of the dockyards, and it at once gives away the argument that there are too many dockyards for the needs of the Fleet to-day. On that ground I think that the proposed reduction of Pembroke Dockyard from its pre-War status of about 2,100 men to a contemplated number of 1,200 by the end of the next financial year is a very drastic and uncalled for reduction which is not justified by the circumstances of the case.
Although the Admiralty have now decided, and I am sure that will be received with very great satisfaction in all quarters, to maintain this yard as a Government establishment, by which many of the evils which would have attended this closing will be obviated, very great hardship will be inflicted on the community which has been created by and for this dockyard for national purposes, by reducing the number of men by such a great percentage. It will mean the throwing out of employment of a very large number of local men who for very many years have been employed in connection with this dockyard. Apart from the question of economy, the argument for which I do not think will hold water when it comes to be analysed, there is a very much larger question behind this maintenance of Pembroke Dockyard. That is the question of strategy. This yard is the only naval establishment on the Western coast of this country. The hon. and gallant Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter) said that with the present disposition of the fleet and with the probable course of events in the future Scapa Flow would have to be shifted from where it now is to the Western coast. It is not necessary to do that. There is a Scapa Flow on the Western coast already; it simply requires to be used. Milford Haven, within the waters of which Pembroke Dockyard is situated, is in all respects fully the equal of Scapa Flow, and the proposal of the Admiralty for scrapping Pembroke Dockyard means the abandonment, to a very large extent, of the facilities which nature has provided on our Western coast. I hope, when this question comes up again in connection with next year's Estimates, that the Admiralty will reconsider the matter of reducing the yard to the extent they now propose. I hope they will be able to restore it to something like its pre-War status and to utilise the advantages which this great land-locked harbour of Milford Haven offers them.
It is also said that Pembroke Dockyard is not up to date in its equipment and its facilities. If the principle of maintaining a naval establishment on our western coast is a correct one, then it behoves the Admiralty not to reduce the level of the equipment of this yard, but to bring that equipment up to a level which will make it an effective and proper modern dockyard. Sooner or later, whatever may be the policy of the Admiralty, as regards the Fleet generally, if that policy requires the maintenance of a yard on the western coast, the course of events will themselves determine that Pembroke dockyard, instead of being reduced to more or less a nominal yard, must be kept up to the standard of the best yards in the country. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) referred to Rosyth. Rosyth is a great modern yard, but it is in the wrong place. Rosyth was built admittedly and purposely to meet the German menace, and to-day for all practical purposes in connection with the maintenance of our Fleet, Rosyth will not be of anything like the use which was intended when it was designed.
Would you scrap Rosyth?
There are other serious difficulties in connection with Rosyth. Reference has been made to the danger to our dockyards from aircraft. There is a much greater danger in connection with Rosyth, which would render it absolutely useless in time of war. What about the Forth Bridge at its entrance? That could be destroyed, almost whenever required by an enemy, and thus the entrance would be blocked up.
There is a depth of 210 feet of water under the Forth Bridge.
If the Forth Bridge was destroyed by aircraft or bombs, it would block up the entrance to Rosyth. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] Rosyth in any case is out of the way, and is not required at the present time for naval purposes, or, at least, is not adapted for the particular use for which it was originally designed. I hope if the strategical necessity of maintaining a dock- yard on the western coast is admitted, the Admiralty will give serious consideration to bringing this dockyard up to the proper standard. It is, as I have said, a matter of great satisfaction to us that they have consented to maintain it as a Government yard. That is really the principal point in connection with it, and I, for one, feel certain that they will be forced, sooner or later, by the course of events, to maintain it as an adequate establishment.
I am free to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty on his most luminous statement, but I am sorry indeed, that he should be in the position of being the first to announce to the House, that it is the intention of the Government to let down the Royal Navy. He speaks with great pride, naturally, of the Grand Fleet and its doings, but he also tells us that that Fleet is now obsolescent, and that the foreign fleets which are being built are incomparably superior. He tells us that the United States are building, or have built, 12 large ships of over 43,000 tons, which are one and all stronger than any of ours except perhaps the "Hood." Our ships, even those which we are now proposing to build will not, according to this, be stronger than any of these ships, though they may be as strong, if we succeed in getting the 16-inch guns which these big ships are armed with. He tells us that these four ships which are proposed, are not provocative, and after his first statement as to the position of our Fleet, that is not to be wondered at. In effect, he tells us that we are continuing that gamble which began before the War, and on which we banked during the War. That gamble began when the late Lord Tweedmouth was in the position of First Lord of the Admiralty, and the running of this great risk is now justified because of our financial position, and the fact that we have decided not to compete with other nations in the strength of our Navy. Now the promise made by this Government was that our Navy should not be inferior to that of any other Power. That promise has apparently gone by the board.
We are told, and I think it is absolutely true, that we stand yet ahead of all other navies and all other nations in our per- sonnel. I believe that the Parliamentary Secretary is aosolutely right, and that that is our strength, but is he so sure that the commissioned and warrant officers, not to speak of that most honourable and wonderful body of men, the retired officers of the Navy, are anything but dissatisfied with the treatment which has been handed out to them since the War by the Admiralty? I have opportunities of seeing a great many of these gentlemen, and I have not yet met one who was satisfied with the treatment he received from the Admiralty. If that is the case with the officers and men at present, and if it continues, where then is our strength? It seems to me, in that case, it vanishes. We are told that there are no docks in the Royal Dockyard which can take these big ships. That is technically right, but there are two locks at Portsmouth which can accommodate the largest ship yet built. It is true, however, there are no slips in any of the Royal dockyards, in this country which can build the ships we are now offering for tender, and that is an adequate reason why we are offering them for tender. That is the reason why we are absolutely in the hands of private builders, who can charge us exactly what they like. We have no alternative. We can build as we have already built in the locks at Portsmouth, but that means a largely increased cost and one of the locks is no longer to be used for its primary purpose.
It is an astounding admission on the part of the Admiralty that not only have they not got slips, but that they do not in the immediate future propose to build slips, because, forsooth, it will cost some £800,000 or £900,000. Yet they are prepared to spend a vastly larger sum by placing these contracts in the hands of contractors. Is there anything in the fact that the gentlemen who constructed the three "Hoods," which had to be scrapped, have got to be compensated? Are they being compensated by being given these ships? Perhaps it is due to a suspicious nature, but it seems to me it would be a very simple book-keeping way of compensating them for the £800,000 which they claimed for the three ships. It will be interesting when we get to know the names of the firms who contract for these ships to see if they happen to be the same, or if three of them happen to be the same as the contractors for the "Hoods" which were scrapped.
The hon. Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Rose) wants peace at any price, but he does not seem to think that our Navy as our insurance is, therefore, worth any amount of money. Although he wants peace, he is perfectly prepared to lay down the law. He says that we can tell Japan what she shall and must do, and if she does not do exactly what we tell her, he says we can then tell her that she shall have no more steel. If the time ever should come when we should tell Japan that, we should find that she had sufficient steel to answer us back in a proper and Japanese manner. We are not to have a strong Navy, but for all that, the hon. Member would be ready to challenge one of the strongest navies of the world in a part of the world in which we have not got a single dockyard, still less a fortified yard. When we consider our dockyards in this country and all over the world, we find that we have not outside this country a good fortified coaling station or dockyard in the whole Empire.
What about Gibraltar?
Would you call Gibraltar a good fortified yard, when it can be brought under fire from Algeciras? Would you call Halifax good? Would you call Kingston good? Would you call Wei-Hai-Wei a dockyard at all? Would you have any truck with Hong Kong? What about Simonstown?
What about Sydney?
You would not try to defend Sydney against the Japanese fleet, unless with the help of the British Navy. Not even Sydney nor Singapore could be defended without the British fleet, and it would take some time for the British fleet to get there. What would the Japanese navy be doing in the meantime? We do not want to fight Japan. She is our Ally, but if we get a certain number of gentlemen in this country, prepared to tell Japan what she is to do, we must prepare, and we must first of all get our dockyards and coaling stations in those parts of the world into order and into a position to withstand attack. The right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) is always worth listening to, but in this case it seems to me, although his speech was an interesting one, the logical conclusion to which it led, was that we should scrap the Navy at once, if, indeed, it would not be better to hand it over to President Harding and ask him to arrange matters for us.
My right hon. Friend the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) has drawn attention to the fact that before the War we spent as much as £52,000,000 in the year, hue we now know, having read Lord Jellicoe's book, that when we went into the War we were inferior to the Germans in explosives, in range finders, and in mines. I believe there were 39 mines in this Kingdom, and that they placed in certain parts of our waters dummy wooden mines. Our night signalling was beneath contempt, and we know now that certain German ships positively passed through the middle of our Fleet, inferior in numbers as they were, simply because they had picked up from a torpedo destroyer half-an-hour earlier some of our night signals. They passed through our Fleet with the aid of those signals, and it was only long after they were gone that some clever person decided that it must have been the German Fleet that had passed through. We clapped all our shells into one or two magazines at most—
I think this, is a little wide of dockyard work.
At that time we were undoubtedly the strongest Navy on the sea, although these little matters had been neglected at home, but now we are not the strongest Navy on the sea, and we are told by the Parliamentary Secretary that even now we are going to be let down to a lower standard than we have at the present moment. Our friends know our weakness, for we have told them, with that generosity which has always characterised us, and our friends now know all that we know and all that we gained by bitter experience in the dreadful War through which we have just passed. We were first in every way—docks, coaling, ships, and, of course, men; but now we are going down to the second place, and very shortly, if we are not careful and if we do not succeed in getting the Government to look at these things from another point of view, we shall be in a third or a fourth-rate position. We are going to build four ships, and we are going to spend this year less than £2,000,000 upon them. They are going to cost over £30,000,000, but if we proceed at our present rate we shall have built them in 15 years, by which time they will not even be worth the scrap iron with which they were built. It was that great man, Lord Fisher, who gave us the idea of building a ship quickly, and it was Portsmouth that built that great ship which revolutionised pre-War shipbuilding in the space of one year, but they spent relatively a great deal more than £2,000,000 on her during that year.
The Government, in my opinion, have made many mistakes. Of course, a Government is bound to make mistakes, and though I am a stalwart supporter of the Government, I must say they have made mistakes of policy, and I think this is the greatest political mistake the Government have made. It is a policy which is certain to ruin this country, and which must be fatal to the Empire. The neglect of the Royal Navy and of her officers and men, and retired officer, which we have again and again brought to the notice of the Admiralty, must be fatal to the country and to the Empire unless it is remedied. The Navy for us is the absolute bedrock. It is a force which cannot be improvised. My late colleague, Lord Charles Beresford, when he was sitting in this House, said that if he were using six-year men in his ships, and he were told that next day he would have to fight, he would land them all. That was his view, slightly exaggerated, of a six-year man. You cannot improvise a blue-jacket or his officers, either the highest or the lowest. The Navy is the force to which we owe our position in the world, and which has allowed us to protect the weaker people, and it is a force without which we would now, undoubtedly, be the conscripts of a foreign nation. What is the reason why we are now being let down? We had before the present First Lord a most excellent First Lord in Mr. Walter Long, but, unfortunately for us, he suffered in health, and I should very much regret, if the present occupant of that high office, in whom I have great confidence, should allow it to be brought against him in the future that he was the man who allowed the British Navy to be ruined. I think I may have the right to tell him that if he and the Sea Lords —and we have some admirable Sea Lords at the Admiralty now—decide to tell the country that we are running great risks, and to tell them that no money which they can spend is too great to keep the Royal Navy supreme and where it has always been, and that if it is not kept supreme it means the end of this country, I am sure the nation will be with him, even if this House is not.
I think it is a pity that when anyone has taken part in a Debate of this kind he should, think it necessary at once to leave the Chamber and never to appear again. I am glad to see an exception in the case of the gallant Admiral who has returned, presumably to hear what somebody else has got to say, but the other speakers-apparently have given up the Debate altogether. Having delivered themselves of their own speeches, they are apparently under the impression that there is-nothing more to be said or heard. The right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) came in for a few moments and delivered himself of a more or less interesting speech, and then disappeared. Just now he walked through the Chamber, and I thought that if I had been called I might be able to say one or two things about his speech; but he disappeared behind the Chair and has not come back again. Even now I must refer to one or two things that he said. He gave us a very interesting if somewhat historical review of what he had done and of what the Government which he represented had done for the Navy, but there were one or two omissions, which I will supply. I could have recalled a celebrated luncheon given at the National Liberal Club soon after the right hon. Gentleman came into power in 1906, when I think there were 150 Little Englanders present, who had something to say about the Navy which was very different from what the right hon. Gentleman said to us to-day. I could also have told him that had the Government which he represented seen that our Navy was well looked after and kept up to an efficient standard, we should not have had the mortification of seeing him, and Lord Grey, and Mr. McKenna, who was then the First Lord of the Admiralty, stand up at this Front Bench and say that they did not know what the Germans were doing and that they were quite unaware that the Dread- noughts were being built, which we in this country knew to be the fact. Therefore, when he said what a wonderful Navy we had when the War broke out, I venture to say that that had nothing whatever to do with him or with his Government. The man with whom it had to do was the present Colonial Secretary, and if it had not been for him I do not think the Navy would have been even in the position in which it was when the War broke out.
Then the hon. Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Rose) gave us a speech in which he made many statements, which no doubt he thought to be correct, but which seemed to me to be absolutely incorrect. He desired to do away with the Admiral Superintendents of the dockyards and to have no naval men in the dockyards, but he did not tell us who he would put in their place, whether they were to be trade unionists or not I do not know. When he had the opportunity of saying something for labour in the dockyards think it was a pity he did not take advantage of that opportunity, instead of saying what he did and avoiding altogether the great question of labour on Vote 8. We have in the House at the present moment the right hon. Member for the Gorbals Division (Mr. G. Barnes), and I can remember over and over again his taking part from the Labour Benches in Navy Debates and giving us illuminating speeches in regard to engineers. Then there was another Scottish Member who made excellent speeches in regard to shipwrights, but the speech we heard from the Labour Benches to-day was without exception the worst I have ever heard from those Benches, and I hope it does not represent the views of the Labour party. With regard to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty, I listened with great care to his speech, and I fully agreed with him when, at the conclusion, he struck what I think was an apologetic note. He hinted in fact, although he did not say so, that he thought these four ships were the least that could be done, and he held out some hope that that was not the whole of the naval policy of the Admiralty.
What we cannot get over is that there is no capital ship in the Royal Navy which has been laid down and completed since 1916, and all that we are doing at the present time to make up for the lost way is to lay down four new capital ships this year, on which, according to the Estimates, only £2,500,000 will be spent up to March next, and a large portion of that sum, we are told in the revised Estimates to-day, will be expended on some other things which have nothing to do with those capital ships. Seeing that these capital ships will cost anything up to £8,000,000 each, it does not look as if either of the four ships is likely to be put in commission for several years to come. It has been said by the gallant Admiral who spoke earlier in the Debate that he thought the ships could not be ready before 1925. I agree with him. They certainly will not be ready before 1924, and I very much doubt whether they will be ready before 1925. Meanwhile, in order to meet what we are told is the demand for economy, the number of capital ships on the effective list has been reduced to 30, of which 14 will be in reserve. This gives us 16 pre-Jutland ships in full commission, compared with 38 in March, 1914. I am not certain whether the "Hood" is included in that number, but the "Hood" is only partially a post-Jutland ship, and if it is not included in the 16, the number of capital ships will be 17; but at any rate I am justified in saying that at the present moment Great Britain has got no capital ship which can be said to embody all the lessons we have learned from the Jutland Battle.
What were the lessons?
With all due respect to the hon. and gallant Gentleman, I do not think I should be justified, not being myself a naval man, in going into all the lessons which we should have learned from the Jutland Battle. I will leave the hon. and gallant Member to supply that information himself. Let us look at America and Japan. The right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert), who has gone away, as he always does, gave us the usual discourse about America, how wicked it was to do anything that might affect America, and what very great friends we are with America, all of which everyone in this House knows just as much as the right hon. Gentleman does, we do not need to be told it on every occasion he gets up. But what are America and Japan doing? As regards America the latest returns show that in 1924, when it is possible that our four new ships may be commissioned, the United States will have 18 post-Jutland capital ships, 12 battleships, and 6 battle-cruisers, and the year following Japan will have completed 11 capital ships of similar construction, and we have been told by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty this afternoon that Japan has already passed estimates for the construction of 8 further capital ships. Moreover, all these ships are going to be armed with 16-inch guns.
When the late Parliamentary Secretary, now Prime Minister in the Ulster Parliament—and, in passing, I may say that I am sure all of us would have liked to have attended the presentation of a testimonial to him this afternoon, but, it being a Naval Debate, we were unable to leave the Chamber to offer him our congratulations—when he introduced the Navy Estimates early in the year, he repeated a statement of policy which, I remember, the late First Lord, now Viscount Long, laid down, that henceforth our naval policy was to be that of a one-Power standard, and the basis of that policy was to be capital ships. It is therefore no good saying, as some Members have said in this Debate, that the Government has never considered the question of a basic policy with regard to the Navy. The experts of the Navy did consider the question of a basic policy, and they came to the conclusion that that basic policy should be capital ships. In the Memorandum which accompanied the Navy Estimates by way of explanation, the one-Power standard is denned as a Navy not inferior in strength to that of any other Power. If the figures I have given to the Committee be correct—and I have taken them from the official returns—instead of our Navy being equal in strength to the Navy of any other Power in 1924, it will only be a third-Power standard so far as post-Jutland capital ships are concerned. Here, again, I would remind the Committee that capital ships are the basis of our naval policy, and just as before the War we reckoned our capital ships in Dreadnoughts, so now we must reckon them in post-Jutland ships. I wish the Committee to understand that I am not advocating competitive building either now or in the future. What I am doing is playing for safety, and, just as the Government trust, so do I trust, in the words of the Memorandum, that, bringing the number of officers and men up to 150,000, or Great Britain by laying down four capital ships, and reducing the personnel of the Fleet from 151,000 in 1914 to 121,700 to-day. It was only yesterday, I think, that the Parliamentary Secretary, in answer to an hon. Member on the Labour Benches, who asked what money was being spent on the navies of Japan, the United States, and our own Navy, said that in 1913 the United States spent £29,000,000, whereas to-day it is spending £134,000,000; Great Britain spent £48,000,000 before the War, and is spending £90,000,000 to-day; and Japan spent £10,000,000 before the War and is spending £48,000,000 to-day. If America with £29,000,000 before the War could safeguard her coasts and mercantile marine, why is £134,000,000 necessary after the War to accomplish the same thing? I venture to think that America is doing a great deal too much in the way of building capital ships, and I also venture to think that this country is doing far too little in the way of building capital ships.
So far I have not said anything about the assistance to be given the Navy by the Dominions. We do not know what their assistance will be. The Parliamentary Secretary read a Resolution which had been passed at the Conference. I have read it two or three times, and I fail to see that it carries us very far. I am sure that the Dominion Premiers intend to help all they can, but apparently they do not consider, at any rate, that this is the moment to give any expression to what may be their intention, either to suggest to their Parliaments, or what they think their Parliaments would accept. We have not yet been told how far we have approached the basis of an Imperial naval policy. The Parliamentary Secretary made no comment on the very important statement in the Resolution, namely, that equality to the naval strength of any other Power is a minimum standard to lay down. Now, the policy laid down by the Government, and repeated by the Parliamentary Secretary, is a one-Power standard. The policy which is suggested by the Dominion Premiers is a minimum standard of one Power, which is an. entirely different matter, and, if that be the case, the Dominion Premiers have in their minds some idea of recommending, when they return to their Parliaments, a very sub- stantial contribution in some way to the Navy. I do not think it will be in money. What they will no doubt do will be to build navies of their own, which will act in conjunction with ours, and so we shall have the nucleus of what I venture to call an Imperial Navy.
8.0 P.M.
The right hon. Member for South Molton, for once in a way, said that he thought it was a great pity that these capital ships were not being laid down in the Royal Dockyards, and there I am in agreement with him. I had hoped at least one of the four ships would have been built in Devonport Dockyard, and possibly another in Portsmouth. Some time ago the Dockyard and Naval Parliamentary Committee, of which I have the honour to be Chairman, had an interview with the First Lord, and we were given to understand, I think I am correct in saying, that the slips at Devonport and Portsmouth were not large enough, and it was further said that it would be necessary to have a new dock. The Parliamentary Secretary has told us exactly what money would be required to enlarge the slips at Devonport and Portsmouth and how much money would be required for new docks, but I cannot help thinking that if, after the Armistice, the Government and the Admiralty, instead of delaying for so long in discussing the question of capital ships and other ships, had considered the possibility and the probability of the Committee deciding in favour of capital ships and of enlarging the slips at Devonport and Portsmouth two years ago, we should not have been in the position we are now. Had that been done, as I think it ought to have been, then there would have been no difficulty about the slips at Devonport and Portsmouth: the money would have been provided, there would not have been anything said about the money, the slips would have been built, and we should have had two ships at least laid down in the Royal yards. Of course we have to have private yards. They are useful institutions. You cannot do without them. But what is the good of having Royal dockyards if you are not going to use them for building capital ships? It is no good saying, in effect, though we have built up these yards, though we have spent large sums of money in their construction, though we have these splendid yards—and here I differ entirely from the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for North Kensington (Lieut.-Colonel Burgoyne). He knows as well as I do that the statement he made to-day was absolutely and entirely inaccurate. The Royal yards can and have built ships quite as cheaply and quite as quickly as any private yard: I make that statement without fear of contradiction: I only regret the hon. and gallant Member is not here to hear the contradiction—we should not use them!
We have spent all this money on these yards, have built up these great workshops, put in all this machinery, and, having got this enormous number of people in these dockyard towns, who with their families have lived there for two or three generations, we lay down these four capital ships in private yards. I put it to the Committee as to whether it is a right policy in face of all we have done to take away from these yards the building our capital ships, giving work to these men, and so enabling them and their families to live. I put it to the Committee as to whether it would not be better if the Government two years ago had looked into this matter and enlarged these slips so that when the occasion arose these vessels could have been built in the Royal Dockyards. It is all very well to say that there are too many men in the Royal Yards at the present moment. That is the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert). He talks a great deal about dockyards and knows very little about the subject. He knows far more about farming, on which he is an authority and on which he has some right to speak. When he begins to speak about dockyards he knows very little. He goes back in recollection to the time when he was a Civil Lord of the Admiralty—which he was far too long. That is all the groundwork he has for any knowledge of dockyards. What happened eight or ten years ago? It is ancient history. What happened when he was Civil Lord of the Admiralty, and what is happening to-day are two different things, therefore I do not pay much attention to what the right hon. Gentleman says about dockyards.
No one wants excessive expenditure on armaments, either naval or military. What we have to do, however, is to maintain our national obligations. These must be fulfilled. Do not let us forget that the sea- board of the British Empire is far more extensive than that of either the United States or Japan. The British Empire itself consists not of one but of many nations. You have only one nation practically in the United States, and one nation in Japan. Once you let the Navy down the disintegration of the British Empire begins. Maintain the Navy and you maintain the British Empire. If it had not been for the Navy in the Great War, I do not think we should have won it; at any rate it was due to the great part the Navy played in the War that we were able to come successfully through. We owe to the brave men who laid down their lives to save this heritage—this heritage of the British Empire—for the British race, that we should not imperil its future glory by pandering either to the extremists on the side of economy, or to the conscientious objectors, or to those who place their faith in the ideals of the League of Nations; nor is it for us to place too much confidence in the deliberations of the Washington Conference.
It is rather difficult after four and a half hours Debate to be eloquent on the subject of the Navy. It is very difficult to persuade, with so few people present. I am afraid indeed when it comes to the Navy we are more long-winded than we ought to be, for we have a terrible way of emptying the House. But if there is one time the House should be full it is when we are talking about the Navy, and something must be radically wrong to see the House with so few Members in it and one speaking almost to empty Benches. I have listened attentively, so attentively, to the various speakers that I have forgotten the points I wanted to make. I have listened to the case for the Government. I have heard the position of the Anti-wasters stated, and then that of the Labour party, and then I have heard also the speeches of the dockyard Members, and also of the Admirals.
The Government seem to have a programme based on stern necessity. When I heard the Opposition speeches they seemed to me to rather smack of 1910. The Anti-Waste speakers left me absolutely cold. They started out, as it appeared to me, with the idea to reduce the British Navy, which, so far as it goes is a perfectly sane point of view. But they also want to scrap the League of Nations. Therefore, I do not know what they really want. It is possible to do one thing or the other, but you cannot do both at the same time. Then the Labour party came along with their contribution, and on their behalf it was stated that the War was brought on by a ring of the great armament firms. I have no doubt that helped. All these things help to bring on war, but I do not think the Labour party has taken the proper view of human nature if its Members think that great wars are caused by armament firms and capitalists, no matter how strong they are. Wars, unfortunately, are caused by human nature. We were supposed to have rather changed that after the late War! Still, I do believe that these great armament firms are a danger to the peace of the world, and that is one of the reasons that I regret the Government have not found it possible to put down some of these ships in the Royal dockyards. But I will come to that presently.
The Government has told us that we ought to have these four capital ships, not that we mean to threaten or intend to build against any country, but that if we go to the Conference at Washington it is desirable to keep ourselves up as a first-class Power. I am all for that. You have to take human nature as it is. I believe in the Washington Conference. I have great faith in what you may call the English-speaking nations. I do not believe they want to fight. I think that America is in earnest when she says that she wants a Conference for the disarmament of the world. I think the Government is quite wise if it goes to America not to go as a third-class nation or a third-class naval Power. She cannot afford to do it. I do not think it would be right from the point of view of the British Empire. On the other hand, the last thing I want to see is a continuance of enormous competition in armaments. Most of the points which I desire to make have been made two or three hours ago—and much better! Still, I can say this: Some people have said that they do not like the Prime Minister in this matter, or think much of him. I think that at heart he is a pacifist. I think he has shown that. But he believes in facing facts as they are. So I hope the Members who go to represent Great Britain, when they are talking about the Navy, will know that it is their bounden duty to keep England a first- class naval Power. I should like to remind the Government that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty, when he began, said what was far more important than the ships was the moral of the men. If the Government had thought that, why did they not let us get on to Vote 12, and talk about the moral of the Navy, because I agree that it is just as important, if not more important, than the ships. I note the nod of the head of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House. If I thought that meant bringing on Vote 12 I would sit down at once. I gather, however, that that is not likely to be the case.
One appeal I would make to the Government in connection with the dockyards. I am not a dockyard Member, although there is a dockyard near to my constituency. I know, however, the dockyard Members have to speak for their electors. It is not a hidden secret. We all know it, and they do it with great eloquence. But I would like to remind the Government that the dockyards are their own property, and that by building ships in the dockyards they are adding to the value of Government property. I know it has been said that it would take too much money to spend on the slips at Devonport, and that is true. We are told it would cost more money, but if you look at the Estimates, and under the heading "Wages in the Dockyards," you have an estimated saving on reduction of £135,000 for 1920–21. On the face of it that is money saved. I do not, however, think it is very sound, for there will be months of unemployment benefit at £3,000 per week in one dockyard alone.
It may be said that this suggested expenditure would be unproductive. The matter has been raised several times, and the Parliamentary Secretary has assured us that sooner or later the slips would have to be extended. My point is this: I wish to be on the economy side. Is it not possible to keep back one of these capital ships? I do not know. As I have said, I want the Government to go forward as a first-class naval Power. Is it not possible to keep back one of these ships, and to extend the slip at Portsmouth? This will be putting money into the Government's own property, as it were, and not spending it on outside armament firms. You are taking the work from Devonport. To put it there will really help the human beings, and that is a safe policy. We know perfectly well when the winter comes the Government will have to have plans to meet the unemployment. No Government can allow thousands and thousands of people to go about unemployed, and I am certain that this Government will not. I would say again, not from the point of view of the dockyards, but from the national standpoint, if it is possible to delay one of the ships, and to extend the slip, do it. The Government will then have it in their own hands. We do not want the armament firms in it if we can help it. I am told that if I am brief we shall get on to Vote 12. I hope we shall because that is of vital necessity to the Navy. They do not ask so much for justice. Human beings are always asking for justice, but it is the last thing they get; but we do ask for fair play. The Government has stated that raising the moral is more important even than building capital ships, and for that reason I hope we shall get on to that subject. With regard to the Washington Conference, I hope the Prime Minister will go there and say to them: "I represent a great Empire, and I am ready to take any steps you like towards peace, but I have to take precautions." Let us go there, at any rate, in our strength and say to them: "We can get the money, but we honestly want to stop wars as far as it is humanly possible."
My hon. Friend who has just sat down is always interesting, and she has been very interesting in her speech this afternoon. I shall not keep the Committee long from Vote 12, because all I desired to gather has been said satisfactorily by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty. There are, however, one or two points I would like cleared up. So far as the programme is concerned, we have only had the question of capital ships spoken of, and we have had no detailed programme as to the other ships. I would like to know what destroyers the Government propose to construct during the ensuing 12 months, and also the other details of that programme.
So far as the statement is concerned, we have had no information on those points at all. It has been customary to have the full programme placed before the Committee on this Vote. I have been interested in the question of the slipways in the dockyards so that big ships can be constructed there. So far as I can remember, I never recollect Portsmouth being without one of the principal ships upon its slips. It was the custom in pre-War days to put the most powerful battleship on the slips at Portsmouth, and as a rule the corresponding ships were placed on the slips at Devonport. It would only be carrying out the old idea if we could look forward in the near future to the construction of one of those big ships in our dockyards. There has been a good deal of comment on the question of the cheapness of ships, and on this point I agree with what was said by the hon. Member for Devonport (Sir C. Kinloch Cooke). I could quote instances where ships were built more cheaply in the dockyards than by contract.
I think on this point everybody will agree, that if you cast cheapness on one side in this matter you will get better work in your own dockyard. You will get better work and more value, and therefore the ships will be more durable and last longer than if they are built in other ways. I am glad that the Government appreciate the fact that it is not only desirable but necessary that the dockyards should be placed in a position for constructing ships, so that they will be able, in some degree, to control the price, and thereby promote economy. If the Government are not able to construct ships in their own dockyards, then they will be at the mercy of the contractors who might form a ring and dictate their own price. I would like to know if we may assume that the question of the enlargement of these slipways will be undertaken shortly. They need not proceed with them too rapidly, and they might be gradually completed, so that when the time comes for building the large slips in our dockyards we should be able to do the work.
This is the only opportunity I get of putting a question on the subject of some of the employés in the dockyards. I want to raise a question upon which I have been in communication with the Admiralty with reference to the crews of the yard craft in the dockyards. During the period of the War these crews were continuously detained on board their respective vessels a large number of hours per week employed upon the ordinary work connected with the towing and transportation of vessels employed on War services. In addition to that, they rendered extremely valuable services in salvaging vessels damaged by enemy-action and by ordinary sea risks. The carrying out of these two duties day and night completed a service of which the officers and men are justly very proud. They are, however, very sore that up to the present, after repeated requests, no real recognition of these services has been made. Their request for a bonus as a reward for the salvage of vessels under Government control has been definitely refused. They have not been entitled to War gratuities, having drawn civilian wages. No leave has been granted other than that given to all branches of the Civil Service, in spite of the fact that they are practically the only branch of the Civil Service not paid for overtime during the War.
The conditions governing the grant of the British war medal prevent many of the crews qualifying for it, although they have participated in the salvage of a large number of vessels damaged by enemy action. It is only fair to urge that these crews, having proved their worth in the War, should have their services recognised in a tangible form. This can be done by making concessions to them by way of a free uniform with allowance for upkeep, and the placing of the officers on salary with the rank of subordinate officers. These concessions will place the yard craft service upon a basis befitting the important work which they are called upon to perform. My hon. Friend opposite knows this class of men very well. I think very likely he will ask, "Have these men done more than other men during the War?" My answer to that is, "Yes, these men were faced with peculiar conditions; they were continually on duty day and night. They ran great danger, and they have nothing by way of concessions similar to those which have been given to other branches of the service. Even as regards war medals only a few can obtain them, because the conditions attached to the grant of the medal are such that few will be able to qualify." I am sure if the hon. Member representing the Admiralty will be good enough to give this matter consideration, and see his way clear to realise the point I am putting on their behalf, the men will be very grateful indeed.
We have had a succession of speeches from dockyard Members, and perhaps it is well that the Debate should now take a somewhat broader issue. I am always interested in dockyard Members' speeches, because they are so obviously addressed to their constituents. There are some very interesting revelations as a rule. None occurred in the speech to which we have just listened, but they have occurred in two or three, other speeches. For instance, we have been told of the deputation to the Admiralty with regard to Pembroke Dockyard and of other deputations. This reveals a good deal of the political pressure to which the government and the Admiralty are subjected in any attempt to effect economy. We were promised that Pembroke Dockyard should be abolished, but the pressure of Wales was too much and the dockyard remains established, although, perhaps, on a somewhat reduced scale.
What has chiefly characterised this Debate, and what will characterise such debates on great spending Departments for many years to come, is a passionate desire for economy and to get rid of militarism. Passionate desires of that character often lead to very extravagant statements. For instance, the right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr Lambert) blamed the Versailles Treaty for the race in armaments now going on. I do not see on what ground he can justify that statement. Who is really leading in that race? Japan. What occurred immediately after the Armistice was signed? Japan held a review on a bigger scale than had ever been held before under the Emperor. She proceeded to have naval manœuvres on the greatest possible scale, and increased her naval programme very considerably. It is obvious that Japan saw here an opportunity for creating a great navy, and that great navy is being built up with some object in the future. It provides for capital ships falling obsolete in so short a period as eight years. It is a far more intensive programme than ever was the German naval programme of which I made a special study from the year 1900 onwards and to which I frequently called attention. It is un- doubtedly the Japanese programme which is leading the race in armaments to-day.
There were other extravagant statements made. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) hinted that we were entering again into a wasteful and criminal competition, and the hon. Member for Hertford (Bear-Admiral Sueter), whom I wish to congratulate on a very good speech, asked us to set an example in disarmament. But surely everyone knows the history of examples in disarmament. Three times we tried to set one to Germany, and it only encouraged Germany to increase her armaments more and more. That will always be the result with a purely military nation. The right hon. Member for Paisley never referred to Japan, but he did refer to the United States. I absolutely concur in his remarks in reference to the United States. I have constantly urged that we should publicly announce that we rule out the United States altogether. If they choose, let them have twice the Navy that they have. There never will be war between this country and the United States. Our two nations would not allow it. I do not believe the Navies would fight against each other. They have fought side by side, serving under the same command, and it is inconceivable that they will ever fight against each other. I repeat we have set examples in disarmament.
What are we doing with regard to the standard? We used to have a 2 to 1 standard against all other naval Powers. We superseded that by a two-power standard with a 10 per cent. strength beyond the next two Powers. Under the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley, we had a standard as against Germany with 60 per cent. greater strength in capital ships than Germany possessed. Now we are standing for bare equality, relying for the rest on the supposed superior training and moral of our personnel. That may be all right at this moment, but it would be dangerous to rely on it as years advance. What is the argument for a margin? A margin gives confidence. It has been proved very necessary by the whole history of war. Nelson in his first battle under Lord St. Vincent was in a fleet which had lost five capital ships through storm just before the fight, and the "Culloden" which led into action was leaking at the time. He then went to the Nile and there his leading ship grounded on a shoal and was out of the fight. At Copenhagen again one-fourth of his fleet grounded and was out of gun range. Take the recent War. The "Vanguard" was blown up, and at the time of the Battle of Jutland the "Queen Elizabeth" was refitting. We must have some sort of margin to provide for such events. Not only in this matter of standard, but in other ways we are showing a desire to bring about disarmament and to set an example. We are projecting now only 4 capital ships. Japan has 8 built and building and 8 more are projected—16 in all. No doubt more will follow, and these ships have rendered all previous ships obsolete. The Japanese new ships are to be armed with 16-inch and 18-inch guns, according to Jane's "Fighting Ships." If the 16-inch gun is so obviously superior to the 15-inch gun, what must be said of the 18-inch gun? There is another example we have set, and it is in connection with the number of commissioned ships. Japan has 20 capital ships in full commission—18 with the Fleet, one with the gunnery training establishment and another with the torpedo training establishment. We have only 16. Surely that shows that our Admiralty is animated by a true zeal for economy. Yet it has hardly been recognised by those who have criticised the Admiralty in this Debate. The new "Dilke Return" shows that we have scrapped so many capital ships that there are now only 30 built and building as against 24 for Japan. That shows to what extent in the path of ecenomy we have scrapped our obsolete ships. There is another example to which I must refer, and that is the manning of ships. We have reduced by 30,000 the personnel of our Navy since 1914. Japan has increased her personnel by 21,000, and has now a larger personnel than Germany had when she entered on the War.
You do not want to fight Japan, do you?
I am only considering preparations for war. Nobody wants to fight Japan. Nobody wanted to fight Germany, but we had to consider preparations, and if we had not done so we should not have been sitting in this Parliament here to-day. With regard to the United States, I say never mind their programme; study their designs. The Americans have seldom been wrong in their designs. We have been wrong over and over again. They designed a Dreadnought before we did, and it was a Dreadnought on the right lines, all the guns were in the centre line, while we went on building Dreadnoughts on faulty designs shown to be wrong by history, with turrets in echelon. Our Dreadnought had no secondary armament. The American Dreadnought of that day had a strong secondary armament to beat off destroyers and submarines. Eventually we had to follow the American design. I have always contended that the Americans were right in putting three guns into one turret, and some day or other we shall have to follow them in that respect as well. I have all along contended that the American design was right in regard to electrical propulsion, and that ours was not as good. Something has been said about the capital ship by various speakers, including my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for East Herts (Rear-Admiral Sueter). My hon. and gallant Friend gained a very great reputation as an officer, but I venture to say that the very responsible posts which he has held one after another—he was to a large extent the creator of the submarine service and of the Naval Air Service—have led him very much to study the matériel side, and I would rather accept the opinion of the war staffs of Great Britain, of the United States and of Japan on such a question as the value of the capital ship.
Have the War Staff any submarine officers and flying officers?
No, but they are bound to obtain their knowledge of this matériel from these experts in order to form their judgment.
Is it not second-hand knowledge, and not direct knowledge?
My hon. and gallant Friend attaches too much importance to mere knowledge of matériel. He ought to study a remark which Marshal Foch made the other day. He was asked, "If Napoleon came to life to-morrow, what would he do?"—and his answer was that Napoleon would take about a month to study these questions of what he could do with the matériel, and then would invent great combinations that would have rolled back the German armies. And so it would have been with Nelson. I say that the War Staff, with their knowledge of the principles of war, are fully competent to tackle these problems, and all that they have to do is to get from materialists the intelligence as to what the submarine can accomplish, and so forth. These War Staffs of Great Britain, the United States, and Japan have unanimously come to the conclusion that the capital ship remains the basis of sea power to-day, and I think they are right. I am struck by the fact that in the late War not one single capital ship in a fleet, protected by its proper accessories—by destroyers, and so on—not one single capital ship of a fleet was sunk by a submarine in the whole War. A fleet consists of proper complements of battleships, cruisers, destroyers, aircraft, and submarines, and in no case, in the Grand Fleet, or any fleet accompaied by these craft, was a single capital ship sunk by a submarine, whereas the Germans acknowledged that 207 of their submarines were destroyed. I venture to say that had the German High Seas Fleet been wiped out at any stage of the War, it is an absolute certainty that the submarine would have been wiped out too. Their very existence depended upon the minefields, and the existence of the minefields depended upon the German High Seas Fleet. Had that fleet been wiped out, our Grand Fleet would have had no difficulty whatever in clearing up the minefields and in wiping out the submarine menace, which would never have matured.
I repeat, therefore, that the capital ship remains the basis of sea power, and all the others depend for their strength, whether they be submarines or aircraft, on that mobile base to which they can retreat. Let me take an instance. The Secretary of State for the Colonies is going to reply in a moment to the Debate. I remember quite well when he was defending his action in scrapping the airships—in not continuing the building of the airships which Armstrongs and Vickers had in hand. He said in effect that "if the Germans have 10 of these airships, it is a certainty that 10 airships can overwhelm two airships." But it never is a question of 10 versus 2, any more than it is ever a question of submarines versus capital ships, or capital ships versus aircraft. It is a question of the co-ordinated forces acting together, just as in a football team the forwards, half-backs, and so on all act together. Had we had two airships which could retreat on the Grand Fleet, they would have been far more efficient in their work than the 10 which Germany had, and which could not retreat on their fleet, but only on fortified German harbours. That is the important thing that we have always to remember, namely, that all these weapons are essential, but that the accessory weapons of aircraft and submarines are paralysed if they have not got the great mobile base of a supreme battle fleet upon which to retreat. Therefore, I say that the policy which the Admiralty are following out is a wise policy. It is a policy which their rivals are following out, and which, if they adhere to it, will make our position safe in the future as it has been in the past.
I agree with what has been said by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs) about trusting the staff; but I wonder if he has observed the way in which the thinking part of the staff is being cut down. I should like to commend to the Parliamentary Secretary this part of the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend. The recent organisation of the Naval Staff has been described in Command Paper 1343, which hon. Members interested may, perhaps, have read. I should like to draw the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary particularly to the Third Division—the Plans Division—the functions of which are as follow:
Therefore, according to the teaching of all pundits on staff work—of which, of course, our late enemies were the great and very successful exponents—that is the only really thinking part of the staff. With these very serious responsibilities, the Plans Division at present has been cut down to six officers, one being a marine officer—quite properly—who, no doubt, will carry on the work of liaison with the Army. The Operations Division has 11; the Local Defence Division, 9; the Trade Division, 7. But the materialistic divisions, dealing with armaments, are simply over-staffed with officers to an absurd extent. As an example—I am talking only of the Headquarter Staff now—the Department of the Director of Naval Ordnance consists of 17 officers, mostly senior. That is not counting all the inspectors and people at the armament-making works. In addition to that, there is a Department of Armament Supply and a Department of Torpedoes and Mines. There are 17 in the Ordnance Department, and 6 in the Plans Division, which has to consider how to use all these new weapons. If we are going to rely on a staff like that, at any rate, let us make it strong in numbers.
There is a great deal to be said on these matters, but I do not propose to detain the Committee at further length upon them. I must, however, make this remark, in no unfriendly spirit, with regard to the speech of the only hon. Member who has hitherto spoken from these benches—the hon. Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Rose). He used certain expressions which, I think, may give rise to misapprehension. He talked of compelling Japan, by rationing her in steel, to conform to a certain policy. I am afraid that those sentiments, coming from the spokesman to-day of the Labour party—although I do not think he meant it in that way—will be used by the Jingo party in Japan as a reason for building quickly before we come to such a pass. I do not think that the hon. Member meant that, and with practically the whole of the rest of his speech I, personally, was in complete agreement. It seems to me, however, that if you want Japan to come into a policy and to keep to it and play the game, she must come in willingly. If you ration her in steel to-day, she will develop poison gases, aircraft, and so on, and one day she will take her revenge. If you force Japan today to conform to a policy with which she does not in her heart agree, you will pay for it later on. I wish to say that, speaking from these Benches for the party which, in the words of its leader, protested against entering into the race in armaments. On the other hand, in Japan there is a rising trade union movement; in fact, there is a rising Socialist movement, and the papers to-day have accounts of great political unrest, and I believe if we hold out the hand of friendship and reason to Japan, and, what is much more important, our American friends do the same, the over-burdened Japanese taxpayer—because the taxes are very high in comparison with the income of the population—will willingly force a policy upon his own Government which no outside power could do. I should like to make one comment on what the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Rear-Admiral Adair) said about the need of private armament-making firms and how the armament industry has saved the country. The greatest armament-making private firm in the world was Krupps, and did Krupps save Germany?
They kept Germany going.
Where is Germany to-day? Disarmed. I am not sure that Germany has not got the best of the War, after all.
Our armament makers are better than Krupps.
Has the hon. and gallant Gentleman read Lord Jellicoe's book and the account he gives of our armour plate in comparison with the German armour plate? We are told the lessons of Jutland are open to all the world. What were those lessons that rendered all warships built prior to Jutland incapable of renovation and reconstruction, making them unfit to lie in line of battle? The action of Jutland was a strategical battle and not a tactical battle. It was mostly a running fight, and a very gallant fight, between the fast squadrons of our fleet and the bulk of the German fleet Of the British battle squadron at Jutland only one capital ship was struck by a shell—the "Orion"—and not in a very vital spot, and only one ship was struck by a torpedo, the "Marlborough," and we learned no lesson from that. What was the great lesson of Jut- land that makes all pre-Jutland ships—this new cant phrase—obsolete or obsolescent? Is it the fact that the underwater protection is not good enough? Because we very successfully fitted bulges during the War and no ship with a bulge was sunk. Was it insufficient protection to the magazines, to which the loss of the "Queen Mary" was due? If so, it was possible within a month of that battle, as I know perfectly well because I was supervising the work in one of the ships, to make the magazine safe and since then permanent reconstruction has been done. Range finders, fire control apparatus—all that can be done in the dockyards in a comparatively short time at low cost. I protest emphatically against this mischievous doctrine that the whole of our 36 Dreadnoughts that we possess to-day—magnificent ships, brought right up to date in the light of the minor lessons we learned during the War—are of no use at all. The only ship which can be called a post-Jutland ship, whatever that may mean, to-day is the "Hood," and possibly one Japanese ship. I want to challenge this doctrine that we are to-day falling rapidly astern. The American public are being told that in ships and guns, weight of metal, and so on, we are infinitely superior, and so we are. At present we have 36 Dreadnoughts. I am leaving out ships armed with 12-inch guns altogether. I am only counting ships armed with the 13·5 and heavier. The Americans have 20 and the Japanese have 12. By 1925, if we build no ships at all, we shall have 36 Dreadnoughts, the Americans will only have 35 and the Japanese will only have 18. I believe we could wait till 1925 in perfect safety.
The fact of the matter is that there is an armament race going on between America and Japan, and I suppose the sporting instinct of the Government and our admirals impels them to take part in it. They cannot be out of the race. They cannot bear to think of the American and Japanese flag officers getting these magnificent new ships with all the latest fads. They want to be in it too. That is human nature. It is a powerful reason, and it was hinted at by the Financial Secretary. What I believe will undermine the moral of the personnel more than anything else is the lack of confidence in the strategical ability of their leaders, which is much more important than the material value of the ships. If you will accept the doctrine that Jutland did not really create a revolution in naval construction—I think when the plans of the latest ships are published they will be found to be not so very different from the ships of the "Barham" class—if you will accept that, we are well ahead of all possible competitors to-day, and if we do not build a ship till 1925 we shall still be in a position of equality, counting in the ships and guns, with the next great Power. I believe it is absolutely unnecessary for us to enter into this race. If Japan and America care to build against each other, if they like to be so extremely foolish as to start on this hopeless race of armaments which can only end either in bankruptcy or in war, let them do it. Whichever we fight we can count on the other as an Ally, and the question of fighting either in our financial state is absurd. Before we begin counting ships and guns and noses against the United States we had better begin to pay off our debt. Of course the Admiralty is in a thoroughly luxurious frame of mind still. I will quote two facts. The Admiralty staff is swollen beyond all real need. I spoke just now of the strength of the thinking Department, but the number of people engaged in the non-thinking Department—in the purely routine Department—is absurd. They are still keeping up three yachts at great cost—great steam yachts—one for the Admiralty, one for the Commander-in-Chief in the Mediterranean, and one for the Commander-in-Chief in the Channel. It is a perfectly absurd waste of money, and every penny spent on them is directly taken from real naval efficiency. We are appointing highly paid naval attachés. I will quote the case of the naval attaché in Finland.
Admiralty yachts and attaches hardly come under this Vote.
I will leave that at once. I protest against the use of the term "replacements." That is exactly the excuse made by Grand Admiral Von Tirpitz when he was justifying his Naval Estimates to the Reichstag, which we read in the speeches that were reproduced over here. These ships are not replacements; they are new ships. It is hypocritical, to use such a term, if I may say so without offence. I suppose the representative of the Admiralty, in reply, will use the argument about having our diplomacy strengthened. It is the common talk of those who want to justify the building of costly battleships that, "We do not want to fight anyone, but behind our diplomacy there must be the strong arm." If that is really the policy of the Government the sooner the people are informed of it the better. It is that sort of diplomacy that has caused wars innumerable in the last three or four centuries, and the sooner we scrap it the better. If you strengthen our diplomacy in this way, then when you have strengthened it overwhelmingly enough you will adopt an aggressive policy, and war will be absolutely inevitable. In regard to the Washington Conference, I hope that no admirals or generals will be allowed to go there. It is simply absurd to set generals and admirals discussing disarmament. You might just as well set the hon. Member for Devonport (Sir C. Kinloch-Cooke) to work discussing the closing of the dockyards, or to set a cobbler to discuss the abolition of leather. I am astonished to see that there is some talk of Marshal Foch going to discuss the cutting down of the armies of the world. The only comparable folly would be to send some of our wise admirals to discuss cutting down Naval Estimates.
At least they are Gentlemen.
The hon. and gallant Member is a better judge of that than any of us on this side.
I hope so.
The Navy in the past has suffered from being over-strong. It has not been forced to use its weight. It would be a very excellent thing if the Navy was made to understand, once and for all, that it is not to rely on its great material superiority, but that is must rely in future, if we are going to depend on force, on superior strategical skill and art. The Navy in the past has done its finest work when it has been in a condition of numerical inferiority on paper, compared with its enemies. History will bear me out in that. I have always supported expenditure for the improvement of the condition of the officers and men, but I intend in future to look closely at any expenditure on armaments. The events of this year have rather changed my attitude. In the past the Navy has been used purely in the national interest, but this year it was used in an industrial dispute. I do not want to follow out that question, but I hope that hon. Members on this side will explain that very carefully when they are attempting to justify naval armaments and the expenditure on naval armaments if and when they hold office in this country. In any case, we are a poor nation, and modern nations cannot fight if they are bankrupt. The peasant communities of South Eastern Europe may be able to do it, but modern nations cannot fight unless they are financially sound, and all the Dreadnoughts that we can build between now and the Ides of March will not save us if our financial situation goes crash.
9.0 P.M
I have just listened to some of the most astounding statements that I have ever heard on naval maatters. The weakness of the whole Debate seems to lie in the fact that we have dealt purely with the material side and not in the least with the human factors. Not one word has been said, nor would it be in order from the point of view of the officers and men of the Fleet. I am entirely in agreement with the view that the most important factor in regard to the whole of the shipbuilding position and the whole of the Navy is the moral of the officers and men. You cannot expect men to go into action, having confidence in themselves and able to do their best, unless they are provided with ships at least as good as, if not better than, the ones they have to come up against. Numbers are not the point. We do not want to have a vast superiority in numbers, providing we can be assured that the ships in which we are called upon to fight are at least as good as any ships that are likely to come up against us. If they are, you can have absolute confidence in the personnel of the officers and men.
The same applies to houses.
Listen to the irrelevant interruption of the hon. Member. A great deal has been said on the subject of the menace to the capital ship from submarines and aircraft. I listened with great interest to the very able speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter), and with a certain amount of what he said I am in entire agreement. Particularly, I would like the Committee to bear in mind what he said on the subject of aircraft used for the Fleet. There is no more important question to-day than the use of aircraft with the Fleet, but the aircraft in use with the Fleet—and I challenge contradiction of what I am about to say—are not being used, if they are used at all, to the best advantage from the naval point of view. The control of gunfire has now gone aloft. It went first to the foretop, and it has now gone a stage higher; it has gone to the aeroplane, I would like the Minister to tell us how many firings have been carried out during the last year with the use of aircraft. How much use has been made of aircraft? This may seem out of order, but it has a great bearing upon the whole problem of the capital ship. We have to justify the building of capital ships, and I want to see that every penny spent by the Admiralty pulls its full weight. I urge upon the Admiralty that they should seriously consider the work that has been carried out by the use of aircraft in the Fleet. We have carried out firings of the highest importance, and with most wonderful results, by means of aircraft, but I do say that proper use is not being made of aircraft now.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) described what had been done by his Government prior to the War in assuring our naval position. The Liberal Government, in common with any other Government which might have held office at that time, did what it could to uphold our naval position, but it is a lamentable fact that at the outbreak of War we were hopelessly short of destroyers and had not more than one-fourth of the number that we should have required. I hope that with the institution of a naval war staff a position so serious will not be allowed to occur again. The right hon. Gentleman said something about learning as a result of the War that we were no longer in danger of invasion. Was that not in some respect due to the Navy? We can only be in no danger of invasion if we have a strong and sufficient Navy. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) said that the Admirals would not be likely to be whole-heartedly in favour of cutting down the Navy, the inference being that this was because they would thereby lose their employment. I was sorry to hear him say that, because it levels a charge of self-interest against naval officers, a charge which the Navy itself has always been the first to resent, and a charge which I have never known to be well founded. He said that we have 36 capital ships. I can only find that we have 32.
In reference to pre-Jutland ships, I do not know if the House realises exactly what happened at the Battle of Jutland, but every ship that fought in that battle was hopelessly faulty from top to bottom, faulty because no one realised at what ranges ships would fight and with what weapons, and there is no doubt that the magazine protection provided for all our pre-Jutland ships was hopelessly bad. A great deal has been done to improve them in this respect, and the ships have been fitted with extra deck armour. A ship on which I served myself was actually fitted with as much deck armour as it could carry in action. But no man who fought on these ships would say that they were really efficient, according to post-Jutland ideas. In reference to the question of capital ships, and the menace of submarines, on no single occasion was the Grand Fleet ever deflected from its purpose or prevented from going to sea by the operation of enemy submarines. It is not generally realised that during the last two years of the War there were scarcely two days out of three on which at least a considerable portion of the capital fleet of battleships was not at sea in the North Sea in an area which gives the greatest possible advantage to submarine tactics. That fact should be known, because it puts the matter in its proper proportion.
The Germans concentrated on our mercantile marine.
I believe that they did, but the Grand Fleet also had to face enemy submarines outside of the Royal Naval bases. Take a particular instance. When the "War Sprite" was returning after the Battle of Jutland she was attacked, and the people on board actually saw three or four torpedoes, and the facts afterwards showed that no fewer than six submarines were waiting off the Firth of Forth and she was able to get in. People who talk in terms of aircraft and submarines should not exaggerate the abilities of these weapons. They are all capable of use, and effective use, against capital ships, but at the same time let us remember what they are exactly capable of. While we have been talking about capital ships we have left entirely out of account the destroyers. I am not in the least afraid of the United States, or of ever being really called upon seriously to tackle the United States, but I do think that extreme weakness on our part may invite an attitude which we do not very much like. Therefore I hope that the destroyer position has not escaped the attention of the Admiralty. The American Navy at this moment has got, I believe, no fewer than half as many destroyers again as we have got, of the very latest type. That is a very serious position.
I hope that the proposals of the Admiralty will receive the support of the Committee. It has been stated by the Admiralty representative in this House that they only concur with reluctance in the building of four capital ships on condition that they are laid down this year. I hope that nothing will occur to prevent that, but I do think that if we are to pull an effective weight in this Conference which is about to take place at Washington, we should give some indication to the world of what our policy is going to be for the future, always on the understanding that if some agreement can be arrived at in Washington a very large part, if not most, of this shipbuilding programme can be modified. We are barely providing for the necessities of the case. I am not at all sure that the position has not gone too far. I heard it said this afternoon that capital ships can be built in two and a half years. I suppose that that is founded on the facts as to capital ships before the War; but I doubt whether it is possible to provide the latest type of gun mountings which would be fitted on these capital ships in two and a half years. I think that three and a half or four years would be a much more likely period.
I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on his illuminating speech. I join with the hon. and gallant Member for Battersea (Viscount Curzon) in appealing to the Committee to support the Government in carrying this Bill and laying down these four ships at the earliest possible moment. I realise fully that in a crisis like the present we must give our hearty support to the Sea Lords—
What crisis?
To the Lords of the Admiralty in carrying out the naval programme which they think necessary for the country. Since the Armistice this country has shown its anxiety to meet any practical and reasonable suggestion that might lead towards disarmament. In 1916 a remarkable statement was made by Mr. Daniels, Secretary to the United States Navy, with regard to a future policy of international agreement. The Armistice came and instead of pursuing a definite policy towards the object indicated in 1916, a vigorous appeal was immediately made to the American Congress to support the American Government in carrying out the full naval programme already projected. Nobody would base our future naval policy on the building programme of the United States. We desire the closest friendship with the United States. We all know that if an understanding is arrived at between the two Anglo-Saxon peoples the peace of the world for all time would be secured. But I appeal to the Committee not to forget this great fact, that all our greatness and prosperity and all the influence which we have had on the march of civilisation are due to the British Fleet and we ought not, even under great temptation to meet suggestions of new experiments in the direction of permanent peace, to allow our Fleet to go below the standard of efficiency and strength which is perilously near the danger point as indicated in the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary.
We have been doing everything we can to suggest to the rest of the world how earnestly we desire an international understanding on disarmament. May I state to the Committee what we have done recently as an earnest of our desire to reduce the burden of armaments throughout the world? We have not built a capital ship for five years. We had contracts for 617 vessels which were in course of construction at the Armistice, and we cancelled the lot. We have disposed of upwards of 200 ships of war of various kinds since the War ended. Our naval personnel was 151,000 in 1914; it is to-day 121,700. We had 38 capital ships in commission in 1914 and now we have only 16 in full commission. We have recalled the South American, the South African, and the North Atlantic squadrons. We have taken away a destroyer flotilla from the Atlantic fleet. Two dockyards are in course of being closed. Making allowance for comparative money values, our comparable naval Estimates this year are only £35,000,000, as against £53,500,000 in the financial year which ended on 31st March, 1914. In face of those facts this country has given evidence to the whole world of its desire to bring about an international naval understanding. But while we are doing that I appeal to the Committee, to the Parliamentary Secretary, and, above all, to the Secretary of State for the Colonies, whose influence on the modem Navy has been profound, not to be any party, in these days when the whole world is beset by all sorts of difficulties and when we are very far from reaching the ideal suggested by the League of Nations—I ask the Government not to be any party, no matter what cry is raised in the country, to reducing our naval power below that standard which has hitherto enabled us to maintain our position in relation to the other nations of the world.
I am glad to have the opportunity of making this appeal. I was associated intimately with the Navy for a period of seven years. I believe it is the greatest instrument on the face of God's earth to-day for the preservation of civilisation. I believe that the personnel of the Navy is the finest product modern humanity has afforded. It would be a misfortune, not merely to this country, but to the whole world, if the part played by that great instrument of human progress were to be interfered with by any action of this House. I support the appeal which has been made for the laying down of these four ships at the earliest possible moment.
I must confess to the Committee that I was very glad this morning when my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House asked me once again to take part in a Naval Debate. This Debate bears good comparison with the discussions which we used to have in a much more crowded House and at a much more critical time before the great catastrophe occurred seven or eight years ago. It has been a Debate distinguished for information on the part of most of those who have spoken. It has been distinguished for moderateness of statement, distinguished also for terseness and compendiousness of argument, both by the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) and still more by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty, who compressed into about 35 minutes an amount of profoundly considered and closely wrought matter which really astonished me. My hon. Friend's speech will deserve the most careful study, for all it says and for all it does not say, by those who desire to occupy the position of students of naval affairs in the House of Commons.
Two great questions have played over this Debate, and in nearly every speech have influenced the arguments which have been used: Ought we to formulate a definite standard of naval strength, and, if we do, what are the best technical means by which we can achieve and maintain that standard? I shall endeavour to address myself to each of these in turn. The right hon. Member for Paisley said very truly that naval disarmament was a thing much easier to effect than disarmament of land forces. That is absolutely true. Everything is so very definite in regard to sea power. You can count the ships which matter on your fingers and toes, whereas in regard to armies all sorts of intangible considerations intervene. In order to effect naval disarmament or the arrest of armaments, the nations of the world have to do only one thing. They need deprive themselves of nothing. They have only to do one thing, and that is not to build new ships. They have only to cease the construction of new vessels, and a complete cessation of competition is bound to manifest itself over the whole area of naval affairs. The ships which are existing are the best ships in the world. The ships in the navy of any Power are the best ships in the world until they build better ones. It is only the creation of a better ship which makes the modern battleship obsolete. A cessation of new construction would undoubtedly mean a cessation of naval rivalries, and naval competition.
In the old days, 100 years ago, when navies and naval science were in a sta- tionary position, that is what happened. Battleships were used until they were worn out; they were not superseded. No better type came along. They were used for 15, 20, 30, and even 40 years. It is only the growth and rapid developments of modern science which have created the new condition, and it is that new and dangerous and menacing condition to which we must especially address our attention. Indeed, after Waterloo, for nearly 100 years the British Navy was supreme. It was not a question of the one-Power standard or the two-Power standard or the 60 per cent. standard, or whatever it was, it was supreme. There were no competitors, no rivals of any sort or kind. For nearly 100 years was had an almost unchallenged naval supremacy; for, at any rate, two whole generations. I think, in these days of British self-depreciation, I am entitled to say in this Committee that we did not abuse that great and unique position. The Power that had the only navy in the world was also the only Power which threw open all its ports at home and in its colonies openly and freely to the whole world. It was also the Power which policed the seas and put down piracy, and swept away once and for all the slave trade. Therefore I do not think that we need be ashamed of what we did in those days when we had this great power.
Unhappily, that is not the condition of the world to-day. We are in an entirely different situation, a situation which it is very important not to exaggerate or aggravate by using extreme language, but at the same time a situation to which the searching attention of Members of the House of Commons must continuously be directed. We have not built for the British Navy, except the "Hood," a single first-class armoured ship since the ships for which I asked the consent of Parliament in the year 1914, seven years ago. It is true that three lightly armoured vessels of great speed were constructed during the War, but they were not first-class ships in any sense of the word, and, except the "Hood," we have no vessels in the British Navy of the first-class which are superior in power to the "Queen Elizabeths" of the programme of 1912–13, or to the "Royal Sovereigns" which were the battleships of the programme of 1914–15. That is a very great fact, and it is a most astonishing fact if you consider that for seven years there has been no reinforcement to the leading capital units of the British Navy except the "Hood."
While our Navy has been in this stationary condition, the navies of two other Powers have been and are being absolutely revolutionised. They are being revolutionised and reconstructed in the light of all the lessons, all the experience, all the infinitely multiplied science which the great War has revealed. The United States of America has built and building 16 ships which are of later decision and construction than any vessels in the British Navy except the "Hood." Twelve of those ships are actually later in construction than the "Hood." Japan has eight vessels later than the "Hood," and has the money provided for eight more. It is quite true that one of those Powers is our ally, and the other, if not an actual ally, is bound to us by ties which are dear and precious from one end of the English-speaking world to the other. We have no conceivable or imaginable cause of quarrel with either of those Powers, nor they with us. On the contrary, we have every common interest with them, and we have every interest also in this country to prevent difference or tension developing between them. Still, the fact remains that if we delay for another year the construction of the necessary vital units of the British fleet, we should have to face a position of definite and perhaps final naval inferiority. We should sink to the level of third naval Power and having sunk there, we might never be able to recover.
Stick to facts. What about personnel?
One may not like that, but we should fail in our duties to our constituents if we did not face and act in the light of those facts. Let us see what would be the effect of such a condition of definite and final naval inferiority of a third-Power status. Let us see what would be the effect of such a condition upon our great public and external affairs. We might continue, we should continue on the best possible terms with other naval Powers. Nevertheless, we should exist as a great Power in the world only on sufferance. We have never done that yet. We have a long chain of history, stretching back into the past over rugged paths, and we have always stood on our own foundations, and been able to answer by ourselves for the essential sources of British security. Profound peace might continue to rule in the world, for many years, as it probably will, but during that peace everyone would know that Britain's day was done.
Who is decrying now?
I say that would be the case if we allowed ourselves to sink to the position of the third naval Power—which is what we are not going to do. That is what we are seeking here this evening to prevent. Otherwise, during that period of peace, everyone would see that our diplomacy was based upon a fundamental impotence. Our place in the world, our great place, a place we have not filled in an unworthy spirit, a place we have not filled with any other desire but to free the world from perils and dangers, and to make easier and better the state of civilisation—our place would be filled, our power to guide events for good would be gone, and everywhere it would be known that the oceans which now unite the British Empire and keep it so well knit together, had become, instead of bonds of union, gulfs, impassable gulfs, abysses of separation, once we had lost—
A pre-War speech.
A pre-War speech! Do you think the British Empire is not to continue, pre-War or post-War? Our duties and our responsibilities are continuous. What is the good of sacrificing the best blood in our country in a long struggle, if it is to be otherwise? I say, everywhere it would be known that the essential foundation of the British Empire had been deranged, and that this island, which depends for four-fifths of its food, for the whole of its economic wealth, for its whole being as a modern State, upon sea-borne commerce and trade—it would be known that this island was powerless to keep itself alive except by good will.
Hear, hear!
I appeal to my hon. and gallant Friend to observe some proportion between his indignation and his capacity for expressing it. That would be the melancholy sequel to the glories of the Great War. Foreign Powers would appreciate that, and they would all take that measurement in their calculations when we addressed to them either counsel or representations. What would our Dominions—the Dominions of the British Empire—say, supposing we were to say to them: "We cannot guard you. We cannot any more extend to those great democratic communities the protection which hitherto it has always been our proud boast to supply?" We have never said that yet, and I trust that we never shall be reduced to so humiliating a position. The Washington Conference is to meet in the future months, and high hopes are based upon it. Our hopes are sincere and intense, our interest in a happy outcome and a brilliant outcome of that great gathering, so full of encouragement for mankind, is superior to that of almost any other Power in the world. But we have to take definite decisions at definite moments, and unless you are to assume that the ships which are now building in the Japanese and American dockyards, which are now in a fair way to completion, and on which enormous sums of money have already been spent are going to be absolutely torn in pieces, broken up, scrapped and cast away, and the money spent upon them squandered, and the hopes based upon them put aside, unless you are to assume that large numbers of new ships are going to be broken up and sold as scrap, then no disarmament proposition that may be agreed upon at Washington will be relevant to the decision we have to take to-night in respect of the construction of these four ships. Not to commence now the construction of these four ships; to agree to a universal cessation on the basis that no new ships are begun, and on the present position—to do that would be to stereotype the present situation for an indefinite period, and we should settle down on the basis of our impending inferiority—our impending vast inferiority—for 15 or for 20 years. We should during all that period be condemned to occupy the position of inferiority which I have described. The right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) spoke of naval standards. We have had many naval standards. We had first of all the unquestioned supremacy of the British Fleet. Then we had the two-Power standard; then we had the 60 per cent. superiority as against Germany, and now the Admiralty have put forward a one-Power standard, and we are told it is wicked to speak of a one-Power standard. In our workaday world you must have some rule. It may be a rule of thumb, but you must have some rule to go upon. There must be some position round which your naval authorities and your political Ministers may argue and discuss. It is idle to seek to found yourself on vague and airy generalities. The right hon. Member for Paisley referred to the use of the expression "one-Power standard," and he said the real definition was "a Navy adequate to secure the safety of our sea-girt Empire and sea-going supplies against any reasonably calculable risks." I am not going to quarrel with him upon that. Do you consider it is to be considered for one moment? I am sorry the right hon. Member is not in his place.
You are not always in your place.
I am always in my place and in a position to reply to criticism or attacks which are made upon me. The right hon. Gentleman used those words, and I accept them. I think they are very satisfactory, but can anybody suppose that his definition would be made good if we were to allow ourselves to fall to the position of the third naval Power? If we had only the third Navy in the world, and all our men going to sea in ships which they knew were overmatched, could we conceivably say that we had "a Navy adequate to secure the safety of our sea-girt Empire and sea-going supplies against any reasonably calculable risks"? No, Sir, I do not think we ought to be ashamed of saying, or afraid to say, that we are not going to accept a position of definite and certain naval inferiority. A one-Power standard is reasonable, it is moderate, and it is not invidious. It is the barest minimum which we could conceivably adopt, and the delay which has already taken place has reduced that minimum to the finest possible margin.
Now I turn to the second question which has dominated the speeches which have been delivered during this Debate. Granting that you must maintain the one-Power standard, is the building of great battle- ships the right way to do it? Would it not be much better to build something entirely new or to rely upon submarines and aviation developments for your strength? That is obviously a question of a very different order and different class from the great question of British naval power to which I have been referring, and it is a question, I submit to the Committee, on which the Admiralty alone must pronounce. As the hon. and gallant Member for the West Derby Division of Liverpool (Sir E. Hall) so well said, if you do not trust the Admiralty you must turn them out and get another lot of experts whom you do trust. But we have confidence in our Admiralty, and when we consider that they are the ablest officers who came through the final phases of the Great War, we are justified in reposing confidence in them. It is not a question of blind confidence or unquestioning confidence. That is not the position here. The Cabinet took the view that they must be assured that behind the solemnly expressed opinion of the Admiralty was a mass of argument which could be probed and tested and searched to the very limit, and the unusual course was taken of appointing a Committee to sit, not for a few hours, but for, I think, 15 or 16 sittings of two or three hours apiece, not in order to take technical decisions, but in order to test the mass of argument and conviction which the naval experts, in whom we had confidence, could advance in support of the proposition to which they had pledged their view; and not only did we cross-examine, not only were these Sea Lords cross-examined—and they accepted it in the most loyal spirit, with that loyal spirit which comes of an overwhelming confidence in the soundness of one's own case—.not only did we confront them and cross-examine them ourselves, but we brought before them other experts, such other experts as we could get, who deployed all these views of the submarine and the anti-battleship case.
It was my duty to be one of the Members of this Cabinet Committee, and if instead of the 10 minutes that is all that remains to me, the House would grant me 4 or 5 hours, I think I could, with proper preparation, present a compendious argument to show the grounds on which the Admiralty arrived at their conclusion, which they advanced, in which they were never shaken, and which in the end they induced the entire Committee to adopt, which every other great naval Power has already adopted. I think I could show the House a case to prove that the capital ship is the essential foundation of a great naval Power, and that in the light of all the modern conditions, of all the experience of this War, of all the changes in the strategic situation, of all the changes in materiel, of all the varying possibilities of the future, we still regard the capital ship as the vital unit by which your naval power would be measured and by which your main security would be established in war. My right hon. Friend the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) asked, Did the Admiralty consider the food supply in relation to capital ships, the docks, or other changed conditions? Odd as it may seem, all these matters were taken into consideration. "Ah, but," says my right hon. Friend, "mistakes may occur; they were made before the War by these same experts or by others who preceded them." Well, I might, on another occasion, have something to say about that, on his behalf as well as my own, but there is no comparison whatever between the knowledge which we possessed before the War, when there had been so many years of peace, when so many factors were utterly unknown—there is no comparison whatever between that knowledge and the knowledge which we possess to-day; and are we to be the only Power to be excluded from the benefit of that knowledge, which we more than any other Power gathered, which we more than any other Power possess, which is so precious, which was gained at such terrible cost—are we to be the only Power whose sailors are not to have the advantage of all that knowledge?
It was the overwhelming opinion of that Committee that the capital ship is vital to the maintenance of our position at sea, and that was the view which we took up in the light of all the new circumstances, and on that opinion we take our stand. We are told that if we give effect to these convictions, arrived at so laboriously and so thoroughly, after such patient and exhaustive examination, we shall suffer as a Government or in our constituencies on account of the Anti-waste agitation. I am not so sure about that. It is to boast of battles before they are fought. Even if we were quite sure that we were going to suffer politically as a Government or as individual Members, it ought not to make the slightest difference to the way in which we do our duty. We must do our duty in each direction. We must maintain the naval position of this country, and, at the same time, we must continue to reduce expenditure. Great reductions in expenditure are being effected. Resolute efforts to effect those reductions are being taken. I hope myself, in my own small way, to contribute a reduction of nearly £20,000,000 on Mesopotamia alone. That is something. It is far more than sufficient to ensure the proper upkeep of the British Navy next year.
I have only one more point to make, but it is a serious one. Let us make sure that we rely at sea upon our own strength. Let us never allow our sea power to fall to a point where we might be tempted to make, or be forced to make, compromises or entangling agreements in the desperate hope of supplementing our own exertions by the strength of others. Let us avoid that path which might easily lead to a great disaster, not only for ourselves, but for £he whole world. Let us rest upon our own independent strength. We have
always done so. Let us do so now more than ever. We look forward to a long peace. We look forward to a peace, which, when the present period of exhaustion is over, as it will be in a few years, will also be a period of prosperity. But, be the weather good or bad, let us stand on our own feet. Only in this way at the Washington Conference will we be able to play the part of a real peacemaker. Only in this way will we be able to walk hand in hand with the United States, not as a suppliant for protection, but as equal partners in a common victory, and as equal partners in the fair future of the world.
rose —
"Divide."
It being Ten of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 15, to put forthwith the Questions necessary to dispose of the Vote under consideration.
Question put, "That a sum not exceeding £11,844,600 be granted for the said Service."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 62; Noes, 311.
Division No. 313.] AYES [10.0 p. m Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D. Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Sexton, James Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Grundy, T. W. Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Spencer, George A. Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E) Hayward, Evan Spoor, B. G. Barton, Sir William (Oldham) Holmes, J. Stanley Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Irving, Dan Swan, J. E. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Bromfield, William Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Cairns, John Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Waterson, A. E. Cape, Thomas Lunn, William Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Wignall, James Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) Mills, John Edmund Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Morgan, Major O. Watts Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) Edwards, C (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Mosley, Oswald Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Wintringham, Thomas Entwistle, Major C. F. Myers, Thomas Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Galbraith. Samuel Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Gillis, William Poison, Sir Thomas A. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Glanville, Harold James Rose, Frank H. Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Royce, William Stapleton Hogge.
NOES. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Bonn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h) Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent Balfour, George (Hampstead) Betterton, Henry B. Ainsworth, Captain Charles Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Bigland, Alfred Amery, Leopold C. M. S. Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Armitage, Robert Barker, Major Robert H. Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Armstrong, Henry Bruce Barlow, Sir Montague Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W. Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Blades, Sir George Rowland Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Barnett, Major Richard W. Blair, Sir Reginald Astor, Viscountess Barnston, Major Harry Bescawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Atkey, A. R. Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff) Bowles, Colonel H. F. Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Hailwood, Augustine Murray, William (Dumfries) Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Hall, Captain Sir Douglas Bernard Nail, Major Joseph Brassey, H. L. C. Hall, Lieut. Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Neal, Arthur Breese, Major Charles E. Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Briggs, Harold Hamilton, Major C. G C. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Broad, Thomas Tucker Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Bruton, Sir James Harris, Sir Henry Percy Nield, Sir Herbert Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Parker, James Burgoyne, Lt.-Col. Alan Hughes Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool) Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Pearce, Sir William Butcher, Sir John George Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Campbell, J. D. G. Hills, Major John Waller Pennefather, De Fonblanque Carr, W. Theodore Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Percy, Charles (Tynemouth) Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington) Hchler, Gerald Fitzroy Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Casey, T. W. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Perkins, Walter Frank Cautley, Henry Strother Hood, Joseph Philipps, Gen. Sir I. (Southampton) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington) Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W. Hopkins, John W. W. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossiey) Pratt, John William Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Prescott, Major W. H. Clough, Sir Robert Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Purchase, H. G. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Raeburn, Sir William H. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G. Ramsden, G. T. Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Hurd, Percy A. Rankin, Captain James Stuart Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Raper, A. Baldwin Cope, Major William James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Ratclifte, Henry Butler Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.) Jameson, John Gordon Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N. Curzon, Captain Viscount Jodrell, Neville Paul Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Johnson, Sir Stanley Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Johnstone, Joseph Rees, Capt. J. Tudor-(Barnstaple) Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Remnant, Sir James Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke) Renwick, Sir George Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Dawes, James Arthur Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Lianelly) Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry King, Captain Henry Douglas Rodger, A. K. Dockrell, Sir Maurice Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Rothschild, Lionel de Doyle, N. Grattan Lane-Fox, G. R. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Larmor, Sir Joseph Royden, Sir Thomas Edge, Captain William Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham, S.) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill) Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath) Lindsay, William Arthur Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Lloyd, George Butler Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Elveden, viscount Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Seager, Sir William Falcon, Captain Michael Lorden, John William Seddon, J. A. Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Lort-Williams, J. Sharman-Crawford, Robert G. Fell, Sir Arthur Lowther, Col. Claude (Lancaster) Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Fildes, Henry Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith) Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Finney, Samuel M'Connell, Thomas Edward Simm, M. T. FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A. M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P. Smith, Sir Malcolm (Orkney) Flannery, Sir James Fortescue Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Smithers, Sir Alfred W. Ford, Patrick Johnston McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester) Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Forrest, Walter M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Fraser, Major Sir Keith Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Steel, Major S. Strang Frece, Sir Walter de McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Stewart, Gershom Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Sturrock, J. Leng Gange, E. Stanley Macquisten, F. A. Sugden, W. H. Ganzonl, Sir John Maddocks, Henry Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Gee, Captain Robert Mallaby-Deeley, Harry Taylor, J. Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Mallalieu, Frederick William Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham) Gilbert, James Daniel Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Manville, Edward Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Glyn, Major Ralph Mason, Robert Thorpe, Captain John Henry Goff, Sir R. Park Matthews, David Tickler, Thomas George Gould, James C. Mitchell, Sir William Lane Tryon, Major George Clement Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Moles, Thomas Turton, Edmund Russborough Grant, James Augustus Molson, Major John Elsdale Waddington, R. Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Wallace, Thomas Brown (West Down) Green, Albert (Derby) Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent) Greer, Harry Morrison, Hugh Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Gregory, Holman Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Gritten, W. G. Howard Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Warner, SL T. Courtenay T. Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E. Murchison, C. K. Warren, Sir Alfred H. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox) Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Hacking Captain Douglas H. Murray, John (Leeds, West) White, Col. G. D. (Southport) Whitlaw, Sir William Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Young, E. H. (Norwich) Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Williams, C. (Tavistock) Wood, Major Sir S. Hill-(High Peak) Younger, Sir George Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Worsfold, T. Cato Winterton, Earl Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Wise, Frederick Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Yeo, Sir Alfred William McCurdy.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
The Chairman then proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 15, to put severally the Question, "That the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in the several classes of the Civil Services Estimates and of the other outstanding Votes, including Supplementary Estimates, and the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in the Estimates for the Navy, Army, and Revenue Departments, be granted for the Services defined in those Classes and Estimates."
Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates and Supplementary Estimates, 1921–22
Class I
That a sum, not exceeding £5,125,747, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class I of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:—
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 346; Noes, 34.
Division No. 314.] AYES. [10.14 p. m. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Brassey, H. L. C. Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent Breese, Major Charles E. Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Briggs, Harold Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Ainsworth, Captain Charles Broad, Thomas Tucker Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Amery, Leopold C. M. S. Bromfield, William Dawes, James Arthur Armitage, Robert Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Armstrong, Henry Bruce Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W. Bruton, Sir James Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Dockrell, Sir Maurice Astor, Viscountess Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Doyle, N. Grattan Atkey, A. R. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Burgoyne, Lt.-Col. Alan Hughes Edge, Captain William Baird, Sir John Lawrence Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham, S.) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Butcher, Sir John George Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Cairns, John Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Campbell, J. D. G. Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath) Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Cape, Thomas Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Barker, Major Robert H. Carr, W. Theodore Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington) Elveden, Viscount Barlow, Sir Montague Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Casey, T. W. Falcon, Captain Michael Barnett, Major Richard W. Cautley, Henry Strother Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Barnston, Major Harry Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Fell, Sir Arthur Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Fildes, Henry Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W. Finney, Samuel Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Churchman, Sir Arthur Ford, Patrick Johnston Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h) Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Forrest, Walter Betterton, Henry B. Clough, Sir Robert Fraser, Major Sir Keith Bigland, Alfred Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Frece, Sir Walter de Birchall, Major J. Dearman Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Cohen, Major J. Brunel Gange, E. Stanley Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Ganzoni, Sir John Blades, Sir George Rowland Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Gee, Captain Robert Blair, Sir Reginald Cope, Major William Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Gilbert, James Daniel Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.) Gillis, William Bowles, Colonel H. F. Curzon, Captain Viscount Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Glanville, Harold James Lowe, Sir Francis William Roundell, Colonel R. F. Glyn, Major Ralph Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith) Royce, William Stapleton Goff, Sir R-Park Lunn, William Royden, Sir Thomas Gould, James C. M'Connell, Thomas Edward Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P. Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill) Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester) Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur Grant, James Augustus M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Green, Albert (Derby) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Seager, Sir William Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Seddon, J. A. Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Macquisten, F. A. Sexton, James Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar Maddocks, Henry Sharman-Crawford, Robert G. Greer, Harry Mallaby-Deeley, Harry Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Mallalieu, Frederick William Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Gritten, W. G. Howard Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Grundy, T. W. Manville, Edward Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on T.) Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E. Mason, Robert Simm, M. T. Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Matthews, David Smith, Sir Malcolm (Orkney) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Mills, John Edmund Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Mitchell, Sir William Lane Smithers, Sir Alfred W. Hailwood, Augustine Moles, Thomas Spencer, George A. Hall, Captain Sir Douglas Bernard Molson, Major John Elsdale Spoor, B. G. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l.W.D'by) Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Steel, Major S. Strang Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Stewart, Gershom Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Morgan, Major D. Watts Sturrock, J. Leng Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Sugden, W. H. Harris, Sir Henry Percy Morrison, Hugh Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes) Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. Swan, J. E. Henderson, Major v. L. (Tradeston) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Taylor, J. Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Murchison, C. K. Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham) Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox) Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Murray, John (Leeds, West) Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Hills, Major John Waller Murray, William (Dumfries) Thorpe, Captain John Henry Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Myers, Thomas Tickler, Thomas George Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Neal, Arthur Tryon, Major George Clement Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Turton, Edmund Russborough Hood, Joseph Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Waddington, R. Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Wallace, Thomas Brown (West Down) Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington) Nield, Sir Herbert Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Hopkins, John W. W. Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley) Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Parker, James Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool) Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent) Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Pearce, Sir William Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Warren, Sir Alfred H. Hurd, Percy A. Pennefather, De Fonblanque Waterson, A. E. Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Percy, Charles (Tynemouth) Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Irving, Dan Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Weston, Colonel John Wakefield James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Perkins, Walter Frank White, Col. G- D. (Southport) Jameson, John Gordon Philipps, Gen. Sir I. (Southampton) Whitla, Sir William Jodrell, Neville Paul Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Wild, Sir Ernest Edward John, William (Rhondda, West) Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Williams, C. (Tavistock) Johnson, Sir Stanley Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Wilson, James (Dudley) Johnstone, Joseph Pratt, John William Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Prescott, Major W. H. Wilson. W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke) Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Winterton, Earl Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Purchase, H. G. Wise, Frederick Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Raeburn, Sir William H. Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Ramsden, G. T. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Rankin, Captain James Stuart Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Kennedy, Thomas Raper, A. Baldwin Wood, Major Sir S. Hill-(High Peak) Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr Ratcliffe, Henry Butler Worsfold, T. Cato King, Captain Henry Douglas Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Lane-Fox, G. R. Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Yeo, Sir Alfred William Larmor, Sir Joseph Renwick, Sir George Young, E. H. (Norwich) Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Younger, Sir George Lindsay, William Arthur Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Lloyd, George Butler Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Rodger, A. K. Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Rose, Frank H. McCurdy. Lort-Williams, J. Rothschild, Lionel de
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D. Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Hayward, Evan Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Holmes, J. Stanley Barton, Sir William (Oldham) Entwistle, Major C. F. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Galbraith, Samuel Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Raffan, Peter Wilson Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Locker-Lampson, G (Wood Green) Rees, Capt. J. Tudor-(Barnstaple) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Lowther, Col. Claude (Lancaster) Remnant, Sir James Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Rendall, Athelstan Wintringham, Thomas Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Poison, Sir Thomas A. Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Major Barnes and Mr. Hogge.
Class Ii
That a sum, not exceeding £7,443,868, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class II of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:—
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 294; Noes, 74.
Division No. 315] AYES. [10. 26 p. m. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Betterton, Henry B. Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington) Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent Bigland, Alfred Casey, T. W. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Birchall, Major J. Dearman Cautley, Henry Strother Ainsworth, Captain Charles Bird, Sir A. (Woiverhampton, West) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Birm., W.) Amery, Leopold C. M. S. Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Armitage, Robert Blades, Sir George Rowland Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W. Armstrong, Henry Bruce Blair, Sir Reginald Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W. Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Churchman, sir Arthur Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Bowles, Colonel H. F. Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Atkey, A. R Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Clough, Sir Robert Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Brassey, H. L. C. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Baldwin Rt. Hon. Stanley Breese, Major Charles E. Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Balfour, George (Hampstead) Briggs, Harold Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Broad, Thomas Tucker Cope, Major William Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Barker, Major Robert H. Bruton, Sir James Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.) Barlow, Sir Montague Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Curzon, Captain Viscount Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Barnett, Major Richard W. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Barnston, Major Harry Burgoyne, Lt.-Col. Alan Hughes Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff) Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Butcher, Sir John George Dawes, James Arthur Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Campbell, J. D. G. Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h) Carr, W. Theodore Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Ratcliffe, Henry Butler Doyle, N. Grattan Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Edge, Captain William King, Captain Henry Douglas Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Rees, Capt. J. Tudor-(Barnstaple) Elliot, Capt. Waiter E. (Lanark) Lane-Fox, G. R. Reid, D. D. Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Larmor, Sir Joseph Renwick, Sir George Elveden, Viscount Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Falcon, Captain Michael Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Lindsay, William Arthur Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Fell, Sir Arthur Lloyd, George Butler Rodger, A. K. Fildes, Henry Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Rothschild, Lionel de FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Ford, Patrick Johnston Lorden, John William Royden, Sir Thomas Forrest, Walter Lort-Williams, J. Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Fraser, Major Sir Keith Lowe, Sir Francis William Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill) Frece, Sir Walter de Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. M'Connell, Thomas Edward Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur Gange, E. Stanley M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Ganzoni, Sir John Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachle) Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Gee, Captain Robert McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester) Seager, Sir William Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Seddon, J. A. Gilbert, James Daniel Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Sharman-Crawford, Robert G. Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Glyn, Major Ralph Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Goff, Sir R. Park Macquisten, F. A. Simm, M. T. Gould, James C. Maddocks, Henry Smithers, Sir Alfred W. Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Mallaby-Deeley, Harry Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Mallalieu, Frederick William Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Green, Albert (Derby) Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Steel, Major S. Strang Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Manyille, Edward Stewart, Gershom Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Mason, Robert Sturrock, J. Leng Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar Matthews, David Sugden, W. H. Greer, Harry Mitchell, Sir William Lane Surtecs, Brigadier-General H. C. Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E. Moles, Thomas Taylor, J. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Molson, Major John Elsdale Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Hailwood, Augustine Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Hall, Captain Sir Douglas Bernard Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Thorpe, Captain John Henry Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Tickler, Thomas George Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Morrison, Hugh Tryon, Major George Clement Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. Turton, Edmund Russborough Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Waddington, R. Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Murchison, C. K. Wallace, Thomas Brown (West Down) Harris, Sir Henry Percy Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox) Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley) Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Murray, William (Dumfries) Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent) Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Neal, Arthur Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Hills, Major John Waller Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) White, Col. G- D. (Southport) Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Whitla, Sir William Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Hood, Joseph Parker, James Williams, C. (Tavistock) Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool) Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington) Pearce, Sir William Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Hopkins, John W. W. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Winterton, Earl Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Wise, Frederick Hume-Williams, Sir W Ellis Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Perkins, Walter Frank Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Hunter-Weston, Lieut-Gen. Sir A. G. Philipps, Gen. Sir I. (Southampton) Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Hurd, Percy A. Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Wood, Major Sir S. Hill-(High Peak) Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Worsfold, T. Cato James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Jameson, John Gordon Pratt, John William Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Jodrell, Neville Paul Prescott, Major W. H. Yeo, Sir Alfred William Johnson, Sir Stanley Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Young, E. H. (Norwich) Johnstone, Joseph Purchase, H. G. Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Raeburn, Sir William H. Younger, Sir George Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke) Ramsden, G. T. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Rankin, Captain James Stuart TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanellys Raper, A. Baldwin Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Bromfield, William Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelity) Barton, Sir William (Oldham) Cairns, John Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Cape, Thomas Entwistle, Major C. F. Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Finney, Samuel Galbraith, Samuel Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Spencer, George A. Gillis, William Lunn, William Spoor, B. G. Glanville, Harold James Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Mills, John Edmund Swan, J. E. Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Morgan, Major D. Watts Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Gritten, W. G. Howard Myers, Thomas Waterson, A. E. Grundy, T. W. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Poison, Sir Thomas A. Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Raffan, Peter Wilson Wilson, James (Dudley) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Remnant, Sir James Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) Hayward, Evan Rendall, Athelstan Wilson, W Tyson (Westhoughton) Holmes, J. Stanley Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Wintringham, Thomas Irving, Dan Rose, Frank H. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) John, William (Rhondda, West) Royce, William Stapleton Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Sexton, James Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Shaw, Thomas (Preston) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Kennedy, Thomas Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Hogge.
Class III
That a sum, not exceeding £10,888,457, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class III of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:—
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 299; Noes, 69.
Division No. 316.] AYES [10.37 p. m. Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent Birchall, Major J. Dearman Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A.(Birm., W.) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Ainsworth, Captain Charles Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W. Amery, Leopold C. M. S. Blades, Sir George Rowland Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Armitage, Robert Blair, Sir Reginald Churchman, Sir Arthur Armstrong, Henry Bruce Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W. Bowles, Colonel H. F. Clough, Sir Robert Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Atkey, A. R. Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Brassey, H. L. C. Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Baird, Sir John Lawrence Breese, Major Charles E. Cope, Major William Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Briggs, Harold Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Broad, Thomas Tucker Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.) Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Curzon, Captain Viscount Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Bruton, Sir James Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Barker, Major Robert H. Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H Barlow, Sir Montague Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Barnett, Major Richard W. Burgoyne, Lt.-Col. Alan Hughes Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Barnston, Major Harry Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Dawes, James Arthur Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff) Butcher, Sir John George Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Campbell, J. D. G. Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Carr, W. Theodore Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h) Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington) Doyle, N. Grattan Betterton, Henry B. Casey, T. W. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Bigland, Alfred Cautley, Henry Strother Edge, Captain William Edwards, John H. (Glam., Neath) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Lane-Fox, G. R. Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Larmor, Sir Joseph Rees, Capt. J. Tudor-(Barnstaple) Elveden, Viscount Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Reid, D. D. Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Remnant, Sir James Falcon, Captain Michael Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Renwick, Sir George Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Lindsay, William Arthur Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Fell, Sir Arthur Lloyd, George Butler Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A. Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Ford, Patrick Johnston Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Forrest, Walter Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Rodger, A. K. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Lorden, John William Rothschild, Lionel de Frece, Sir Walter de Lort-Williams, J. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lowe, Sir Francis William Royden, Sir Thomas Gange, E. Stanley Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith) Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Ganzoni, Sir John M'Connell, Thomas Edward Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill) Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Gilbert, James Daniel Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Goff, Sir R. Park M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Gould, James C. Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Seager, Sir William Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Seddon, J. A. Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Sharman-Crawford, Robert G. Green, Albert (Derby) Maddocks, Henry Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Mallaby-Deeley, Harry Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Mallalieu, Frederick William Simm, M. T. Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Smithers, Sir Alfred W. Greer, Harry Manville, Edward Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Gritten, W. G. Howard Mason, Robert Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E. Matthews, David Steel, Major S. Strang Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Mitchell, Sir William Lane Stewart, Gershom Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Moles, Thomas Sturrock, J. Leng Hailwood, Augustine Molson, Major John Elsdale Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Sugden, W. H. Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Taylor, J. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Morden, Col. W. Grant Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham) Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Morrison, Hugh Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Harris, Sir Henry Percy Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. Thorpe, Captain John Henry Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Murchison, C. K. Tryon, Major George Clement Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox) Turton, Edmund Russborough Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Waddington, R. Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Murray, William (Dumfries) Wallace, Thomas Brown (West Down) Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Neal, Arthur Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Hills, Major John Waller Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley) Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent) Hood, Joseph Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Nield, Sir Herbert Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington) Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Hopkins, John W. W. Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Oman, Sir Charles William C. White, Col. G. D. (Southport) Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Parker, James Whitla, Sir William Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool) Williams, C. (Tavistock) Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Pearce, Sir William Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Hurd, Percy A. Winterton, Earl Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Pennefather, De Fonblanque Wise, Frederick James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Jameson, John Gordon Perkins, Walter Frank Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Jodrell, Neville Paul Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Wood, Sir J, (Stalybridge & Hyde) Johnson, Sir Stanley Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Wood, Major Sir S. Hill-(High Peak) Johnstone, Joseph Polson, Sir Thomas A. Worsfold, T. Cato Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke) Pratt, John William Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Prescott, Major w. H. Yeo, Sir Alfred William Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Young, E. H. (Norwich) Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Lianelly) Purchase. H. G. Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Ramsden, G. T. Younger, Sir George Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Rankin, Captain James Stuart Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr Raper, A. Baldwin TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Kidd, James Ratcliffe, Henry Butler Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr King, Captain Henry Douglas Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N. McCurdy.
NOES Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D. Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Cape, Thomas Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Bottomley, Horatio W. Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Bromfield, William Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Barton, Sir William (Oldham) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Cairns, John Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) Entwistle, Major C. F. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Finney, Samuel Lunn, William Spencer, George A. Galbraith, Samuel Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D.(Midlothian) Spoor, B. G. Gillis, William Mills, John Edmund Swan, J. E. Glanville, Harold James Morgan, Major D. Watts Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Myers, Thomas Waterson, A. E. Grundy, T. W. O'Grady, James Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Hall, F. (York, W. B., Normanton) Raffan, Peter Wilson Wilson, James (Dudley) Hayward, Evan Rendall, Athelstan Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) Holmes, J. Stanley Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Irving, Dan Rose, Frank H. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) John, William (Rhondda, West) Royce, William Stapleton Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Sexton, James Kennedy, Thomas Shaw, Thomas (Preston) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Hogge.
Class IV
That a sum, not exceeding £3,997,526, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class IV of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:—
Question put, and agreed to.
Class V
That a sum, not exceeding £2,519,139, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class V of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:—
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 590; Noes, 80.
Division No. 317.]> AYES. [10.50 p. m. Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent Betterton, Henry B. Campbell, J. D. G. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Bigland, Alfred Carr, W. Theodore Ainsworth, Captain Charles Birchall, Major J. Dearman Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington) Amery, Leopold C. M. S. Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Casey, T. W. Armstrong, Henry Bruce Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Cautley, Henry Strother Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W. Blades, Sir George Rowland Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W). Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Blair, Sir Reginald Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Atkey, A. R. Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W. Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Bowles, Colonel H. F. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Churchman, Sir Arthur Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Balfour, George (Hampstead) Brassey, H. L. C. Clough, Sir Robert Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Breese, Major Charles E. Cohen, Major J. Brunei Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Briggs, Harold Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Barker, Major Robert H. Broad, Thomas Tucker Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Barlow, Sir Montague Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Cope, Major William Barnes Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Bruton, Sir James Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Barnett, Major Richard W. Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.) Barnston, Major Harry Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Curzon, Captain Viscount Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Burgoyne, Lt.-Col. Alan Hughes Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart.(Gr'nw'h) Butcher, Sir John George Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Dawes, James Arthur Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr Rees, Capt. J. Tudor-(Barnstaple) Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Kidd, James Reid, D. D. Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry King, Captain Henry Douglas Remnant, Sir James Doyle, N. Grattan Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Renwick, Sir George Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Lane-Fox, G. R. Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Edge, Captain William Larmor, Sir Joseph Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham, S.) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath) Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Lloyd, George Butler Rodger, A. K. Elveden, Viscount Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Rothschild, Lionel de Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Falcon, Captain Michael Lorden, John William Royden, Sir Thomas Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Lort-Williams, J. Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Fell, Sir Arthur Lowe, Sir Francis William Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill) Fildes, Henry Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A. M'Connell, Thomas Edward Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur Ford, Patrick Johnston M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Forrest, Walter Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Fraser, Major Sir Keith M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Seager, Sir William Frece, Sir Walter de Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Seddon, J. A. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Sharman-Crawford, Robert G. Gange, E. Stanley Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Ganzoni, Sir John Macquisten, F. A. Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Gee, Captain Robert Maddocks, Henry Simm, M. T. Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Mallaby-Deeley, Harry Smithers, Sir Alfred W. Gilbert, James Daniel Mallalieu, Frederick William Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Glyn, Major Ralph Manville, Edward Steel, Major S. Strang Goff, Sir R. Park Mason, Robert Stewart, Gershom Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Matthews, David Sturrock, J. Leng Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Mitchell, Sir William Lane Sugden, W. H. Green, Albert (Derby) Moles, Thomas Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Molson, Major John Elsdale Taylor, J. Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham) Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Greer, Harry Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Thorpe, Captain John Henry Guinness, Lieut. Col. Hon. W. E. Morden, Col. W. Grant Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Tryon, Major George Clement Hailwood, Augustine Morrison, Hugh Turton, Edmund Russborough Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. Waddington, R. Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l.W.D'by) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Wallace, Thomas Brown (West Down) Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Murchison, C. K. Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox) Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley) Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Harris, Sir Henry Percy Murray, William (Dumfries) Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent) Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Neal, Arthur Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Newman. Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) White, Col. G. D. (Southport) Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Nield, Sir Herbert Whitla, Sir William Hills, Major John Waller Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Williams, C. (Tavistock) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Parker, James Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Hood, Joseph Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool) Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Pearce, Sir William Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington) Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Winterton, Earl Hopkins, John W. W. Pennefather, De Fonblanque Wise, Frederick Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Perkins, Walter Frank Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Hurd, Percy A. Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Worsfold, T. Cato James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Pratt, John William Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Jameson, John Gordon Prescott, Major W. H. Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Jodrell, Neville Paul Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Yeo, Sir Alfred William Johnson, Sir Stanley Purchase, H. G. Young, E. H. (Norwich) Johnstone, Joseph Ramsden, G. T. Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Rankin, Captain James Stuart Younger, Sir George Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke) Raper, A. Baldwin Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Ratcliffe, Henry Butler TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N. Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel McCurdy.
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D. Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Cape, Thomas Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Bottomley, Horatio W. Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Bromfield, William Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Barton, Sir William (Oldham) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Cairns, John Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Sexton, James Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Kennedy, Thomas Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Entwistle, Major C. F. Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Finney, Samuel Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Galbraith, Samuel Lawson, John James Spencer, George A. Gillis, William Lunn, William Spoor, B. G. Glanville, Harold James Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Gould, James C. MacVeagh, Jeremiah Swan, J. E. Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Mills, John Edmund Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Morgan, Major D. Watts Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Waterson, A. E. Gritten, w. G. Howard Myers, Thomas Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Grundy, T. W. Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) O'Grady, James Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Poison, Sir Thomas A. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Hayward, Evan Raffan, Peter Wilson Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Holmes, J. Stanley Rendall, Athelstan Irving, Dan Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— John, William (Rhondda, West) Rose, Frank H. Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Jones. G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Royce, William Stapleton Hogge.
Class VI
That a sum, not exceeding £93,557,671, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VI of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:—
Division No. 318] AYES. [11.0 p. m. Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff) Broad, Thomas Tucker Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Amery, Leopold C. M. S. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Bruton, Sir James Armitage, Robert Benn, Capt. Sir I.H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h) Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Armstrong, Henry Bruce Bigland, Alfred Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Atkey, A. R. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Butcher, Sir John George Baird, Sir John Lawrence Blades, Sir George Rowland Campbell, J. D. G. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Blair, Sir Reginald Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Casey, T. W. Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Cautley, Henry Strother Barlow, Sir Montague Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Barnes Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Brassey, H. L. C. Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Barnett, Major Richard W. Breese, Major Charles E. Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W. Barnston, Major Harry Briggs, Harold Churchman, Sir Arthur
Question put, and agreed to.
Class VII
That a sum, not exceeding £2,808,691, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VII of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:—
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 243; Noes, 106.
Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Johnstone, Joseph Raeburn, Sir William H. Clough, Sir Robert Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Ramsden, G. T. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke) Rankin, Captain James Stuart Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N. Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Cope, Major William Kellaway, Rt. Hon Fredk. George Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr Rees, Capt. J. Tudor-(Barnstaple) Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.) Kidd, James Reid, D. D. Davidson, J.C.C.(Hemel Hempstead) king, Captain Henry Douglas Renwick, Sir George Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Dawes, James Arthur Lane-Fox, G. R. Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Larmor, Sir Joseph Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Doyle, N. Grattan Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Rodger, A. K. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Lloyd, George Butler Roundell, Colonel R. F. Edge, Captain William Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Royden, Sir Thomas Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Lorden, John William Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill) Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Lowe, Sir Francis William Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Elveden, Viscount Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith) Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. M'Connell, Thomas Edward Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D Falcon, Captain Michael Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester) Seager, Sir William Fildes, Henry M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Seddon, J. A. FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A. Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Sharman-Crawford, Robert G. Ford, Patrick Johnston McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Forrest, Walter Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on T.) Frece, Sir Walter de Maddocks, Henry Simm, M. T. Gange, E. Stanley Mallaby-Deeley, Harry Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Ganzoni, Sir John Mallalieu, Frederick William Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Gee, Captain Robert Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Stewart, Gershom Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Manville, Edward Sturrock, J. Leng Gilbert, James Daniel Mason, Robert Sugden, W. H. Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Matthews, David Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Glyn, Major Ralph Mitchell, Sir William Lane Taylor, J. Goff, Sir R. Park Moles, Thomas Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham) Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Green, Albert (Derby) Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J Thorpe, Captain John Henry Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers Greer, Harry Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Tryon, Major George Clement Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Morrison, Hugh Turton, Edmund Russborough Hallwood, Augustine Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. Waddington, R. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Wallace, Thomas Brown (West Down) Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Murchison, C. K. Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox) Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley) Harris, Sir Henry Percy Murray, William (Dumfries) Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent) Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Neal, Arthur Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S) Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Whitla, Sir William Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Nield, Sir Herbert Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Williams, C. (Tavistock) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Hood, Joseph Oman, Sir Charles William C. Wise, Frederick Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. Midlothian) Parker, James Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington) Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool) Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Hopkins, John W. W. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Perkins, Walter Frank Worsfold, T. Cato Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G. Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Hurd, Percy A. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Young, E. H. (Norwich) Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Pratt, John William Younger, Sir George Jameson, John Gordon Prescott, Major W. H. Jodrell, Neville Paul Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Johnson, Sir Stanley Purchase, H. G. Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D. Bowles, Colonel H. F. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) Ainsworth, Captain Charles Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Entwistle, Major C. F. Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W. Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Fell, Sir Arthur Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G Cairns, John Finney, Samuel Barker, Major Robert H. Cape, Thomas Eraser, Major Sir Keith Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Gillis, William Barton, Sir .William (Oldham) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Glanville, Harold James Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Curzon, Captain Viscount Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Betterton, Henry B. Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Bottomley, Horatio W. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Gritten, W. G. Howard
Grundy, T. W. Macquisten, F. A. Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Smithers, Sir Alfred W. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Mills, John Edmund Spencer, George A. Hall, F. (York, W. B., Normanton) Molson, Major John Elsdale Spoor, B. G. Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Morgan, Major D. Watts Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Swan, J. E. Harmsworth, Hon. E. C (Kent) Myers, Thomas Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Hayward, Evan Nail, Major Joseph Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Hills, Major John Waller Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Holmes, J. Stanley Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. John, William (Rhondda, West) Pearce, Sir William White, Col. G. D. (Southport) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Poison, Sir Thomas A. Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Raffan, Peter Wilson Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Kennedy, Thomas Remnant, Sir James Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Rendall, Atheistan Winterton, Earl Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Lawson, John James Rose, Frank H. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Royce, William Stapleton TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Lort-Williams, J. Sexton, James Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Lunn, William Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Hogge. Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D (Midlothian) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Disposal and Liquidation Commission
"That a sum, not exceeding £3,600,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922,
Division No. 319] AYES. [11.10 p. m. Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Hailwood, Augustine Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Ainsworth, Captain Charles Cope, Major William Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Amory, Leopold C. M. S. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Armitage, Robert Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Armstrong, Henry Bruce Curzon, Captain Viscount Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W. Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Harris, Sir Henry Percy Atkey, A. R. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Henderson. Major V. L. (Tradeston) Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Henry, Denis, S. (Londonderry, S.) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Dawes, James Arthur Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Hills, Major John Waller Barker, Major Robert H. Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Barlow, Sir Montague Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Doyle, N. Grattan Hood, Joseph Barnett, Major Richard W Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Barnston, Major Harry Edge, Captain William Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington) Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff) Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath) Hopkins, John W. W. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Part. (Gr'nw'h) Eiveden, Viscount Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Betterton, Henry B. Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G Birchall, Major J. Dearman Falcon, Captain Michael Hurd, Percy A. Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Fell, Sir Arthur James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Blades, Sir George Rowland Fildes, Henry Jameson, John Gordon Blair, Sir Reginald FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A. Jodrell, Neville Paul Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Ford, Patrick Johnston Johnson, Sir Stanley Bowles, Colonel H. F. Forrest, Walter Johnstone, Joseph Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Brassey, H. L. C. Frece, Sir Walter de Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke) Breese, Major Charles E. Gange, E. Stanley Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Briggs, Harold Ganzoni, Sir John Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Broad, Thomas Tucker Gee, Captain Robert Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Bruton, Sir James Gilbert, James Daniel Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Kidd, James Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Glyn, Major Ralph King, Captain Henry Douglas Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Goff, Sir R. Park Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Campbell, J. D. G. Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Lane-Fox, G. R. Casey, T.W. Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Larmor, Sir Joseph Cautley, Henry Strother Green, Albert (Derby) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W. Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd n) Churchman, Sir Arthur Greer, Harry Lorden, John William Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Gritten, W. G. Howard Lort-Williams, J. Clough, Sir Robert Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Lowe, Sir Francis William Cohen, Major J. Brunel Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith)
for the Salaries and Expenses of the Disposal and Liquidation Commission."
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 272; Noes, 71.
M'Connell, Thomas Edward Perkins, Walter Frank Sturrock, J. Leng McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Sugden, W. H. Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Taylor, J. M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Pratt, John William Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham) Macmaster, sir Donald Prescott, Major W. H. Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Purchase, H. G. Thorpe, Captain John Henry Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Raeburn, Sir William H. Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers Maddocks, Henry Rankin, Captain James Stuart Tryon, Major George Clement Mallaby-Deeley, Harry Raper, A. Baldwin Turton, Edmund Russborough Mallalieu, Frederick William Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N. Waddington, R. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Wallace, Thomas Brown (West Down) Manville, Edward Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Mason, Robert Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple) Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley) Matthews, David Reid, D. D. Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Mitchell, Sir William Lane Renwick, Sir George Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent) Moles, Thomas Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) White, Col. G. D. (Southport) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Rodger, A. K. Whitla, Sir William Morden, Col. W. Grant Rothschild, Lionel de Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Roundell, Colonel R. F. Williams, C. (Tavistock) Morrison, Hugh Royden, Sir Thomas Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill) Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Murchison, C. K. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Winterton, Earl Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox) Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur Wise, Frederick Murray, John (Leeds, West) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Murray, William (Dumfries) Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Neal, Arthur Seager, Sir William Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Seddon, J. A. Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Sharman-Crawford, Robert G. Worsfold, T. Cato Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Simm, M. T. Young, E. H. (Norwich) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Smithers, Sir Alfred W. Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Parker, James Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Younger, Sir George Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool) Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Pearce, Sir William Steel, Major S. Strang TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Stewart, Gershom Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. Dudley Ward.
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D. Grundy, T. W. Rendall, Athelstan Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Rose, Frank H. Barton, Sir William (Oldham) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Royce, William Stapleton Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Hayward, Evan Sexton, James Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Holmes, J. Stanley Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Bottomley, Horatio W. John, William (Rhondda, West) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Spencer, George A. Bromfield, William Kennedy, Thomas Spoor, B. G. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Cairns, John Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Swan, J. E. Cape, Thomas Lawson, John James Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Lunn, William Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D.(Midlothian) Waterson, A. E. Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Mills, John Edmund Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) Morgan, Major D. Watts Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) Entwistle, Major C. F. Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Finney, Samuel Myers, Thomas Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Gillis, William Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Glanville, Harold James Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Poison, Sir Thomas A. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Raffan, Peter Wilson Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Remnant, Sir James Hogge.
Shipping Liquidation
"That a sum, not exceeding £4,445,600, he granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for the Salaries and Expenses in connection with Shipping Liquidation."
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 269; Noes, 73.
Division No. 320.] AYES. [11.20 p. m. Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent Fraser, Major Sir Keith Molson, Major John Elsdale Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Frece, Sir Walter de Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Ainsworth, Captain Charles Gange, E. Stanley Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Amery, Leopold C. M. S. Ganzonl, Sir John Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Armitage, Robert Gee, Captain Robert Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Armstrong, Henry Bruce Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Morden, Col. W. Grant Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W. Gilbert, James Daniel Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Atkey, A. R. Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Morrison, Hugh Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Glyn, Major Ralph Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Goff, Sir R. Park Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Murchison, C. K. Balfour, George (Hampstead) I Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox) Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Green, Albert (Derby) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Barker, Major Robert H. Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Murray, William (Dumfries) Barlow, Sir Montague Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Nall, Major Joseph Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar Neal, Arthur Barnett, Major Richard W. Greer, Harry Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Barnston, Major Harry Gritten, W. G. Howard Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Hallwood, Augustine Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h) Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Parkers James Betterton, Henry B. Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l.W.D'by) Parkinson, Albert L, (Blackpool) Bigland, Alfred Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Pearce, Sir William Birchall, Major J. Dearman Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Harris, Sir Henry Percy Perkins, Walter Frank Blades, Sir George Rowland Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Blair, Sir Reginald Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Pownaff, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Pratt, John William Bowles, Colonel H. F. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Prescott, Major W. H. Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Brassey, H. L. C. Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Purchase, H. G. Breese, Major Charles E. Hills, Major John Waller Raeburn, Sir William H. Briggs, Harold Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Rankin, Captain James Stuart Broad, Thomas Tucker Holbrook Sir Arthur Richard Raper, A. Baldwin Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Hood, Joseph Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N. Bruton, Sir James Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hopkins, John W. W. Reid, D. D. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Remnant, Sir James Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Renwick, Sir George Butcher, Sir John George Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Campbell, J. D. G. Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G. Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Carr, W. Theodore Hurd, Percy A. Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Casey, T. W. Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Cautley, Henry Strother Jameson, John Gordon Rodger, A. K. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Jodrell, Neville Paul Rothschild, Lionel de Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Johnson, Sir Stanley Roundell, Colonel R. F. Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W. Johnstone, Joseph Royden, Sir Thomas Churchman, Sir Arthur Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke) Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill) Clough, Sir Robert Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Lianelly) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Cohen, Major J. Brunel Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Kolley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Cope, Major William Kidd, James Seager, Sir William Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) King, Captain Henry Douglas Seddon, J. A. Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Sharman-Crawford, Robert G. Curzon, Captain Viscount Lane-Fox, G. R. Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Larmor, Sir Joseph Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Simm, M. T. Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Steel, Major S. Strang Dawes, James Arthur Lorden, John William Stewart, Gershom Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Lort-Williams, J. Sturrock, J. Leng Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Lowe, Sir Francis William Sugden, W. H. Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith) Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring M'Connell, Thomas Edward Taylor, J. Edge, Captain William Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham) Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath) McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester) Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Thorpe, Captain John Henry Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington,W.) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers Elveden, Viscount McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Tryon, Major George Clement Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Turton, Edmund Russborough Falcon, Captain Michael Maddocks, Henry Waddington, R. Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Mallaby-Deeley, Harry Wallace, Thomas Brown (West Down) Fell, Sir Arthur Manville, Edward Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Flides, Henry Mason, Robert Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley) FltzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A. Matthews, David Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent) Ford, Patrick Johnston Mitchell, Sir William Lane Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Forrest, Walter Moles, Thomas Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.
Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Winterton, Earl Young, E. H. (Norwich) White, Col. G D (Southport) Wise, Frederick Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Whitla, Sir William Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Younger, Sir George Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Williams, C. (Tavistock) Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir M. (Bethnal Gn) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Dudley Ward.
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D. Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth) Raffan, Peter Wilson Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Rendall, Athelstan Barton, Sir William (Oldham) Hayward, Evan Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Holmes, J. Stanley Rose, Frank H. Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) John, William (Rhondda, West) Royce, William Stapleton Bottomley, Horatio W. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Sexton, James Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Bromfield, William Kennedy, Thomas Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Spencer, George A. Cairns, John Lawson, John James Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Cape, Thomas Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Swan, J. E. Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Lowther, Col. Claude (Lancaster) Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Lunn, William Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Edwards, C (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Waterson, A. E. Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Entwistle, Major C. F. Mallalieu, Frederick William Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Finney, Samuel Mills, John Edmund Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) Gillis, William Morgan, Major D. Watts Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Glanville, Harold James Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Gould, James C. Myers, Thomas Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Hogge. Grundy, T. W. Poison, Sir Thomas A.
Central Control, Board (Liquor Traffic)
"That a sum, not exceeding £127,540: be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), including the cost of acquisition and direct control of licensed premises and businesses and the provision of canteens."
Question put.
( seated and covered ): On a point of Order. May I ask if it is the intention to take the Whips off in this Division?
That is not a point of Order. It has nothing to do with the Chair.
Question put, and agreed to.
Loans to Allies, Etc
"That a sum, not exceeding £3,000,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for Loans to the Governments of Allied Countries, and for Loans and Grants for purposes of Reconstruction and Relief."
Question put, and agreed to.
Railway and Canal (War) Agreements Liquidation
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £36,000,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, to meet Expenditure arising from the Government Control of Railways and Canals in Great Britain and Ireland under the Regulation of the Forces Act, 1871, Section 16, and Defence of the Realm (Consolidation) Regulations, 9 H."
Question put, and agreed to.
Treasury Securities Deposit Scheme
"That a sum, not exceeding £489,137, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for the Expenses connected with the Treasury Securities Deposit Scheme."
Question put, and agreed to.
Property Losses (Ireland) Compensation
"That a sum, not exceeding £61,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for ex gratia Grants in respect of Losses and Injuries sustained in the Rebellion in Ireland in 1916."
Question put, and agreed to.
Miscellaneous War Services (Foreign Office)
"That a sum, not exceeding £1,646,899 (including a Supplementary sum of £1,146,899), be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of
payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for the cost of certain Miscellaneous War Services."
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 260; Noes, 68.
Division No. 321.] AYES. 11.38 p. m. Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent Fildes, Henry McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte FltzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A. Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Ainsworth, Captain Charles Ford, Patrick Johnston McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Amery, Leopold C. M. S. Forrest, Walter Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Armitage, Robert Fraser, Major Sir Keith Macquisten, F. A. Armstrong, Henry Bruce Frece, Sir Walter de Maddocks, Henry Atkey, A. R. Gange, E. Stanley Mallaby-Deeley, Harry Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Ganzonl, Sir John Mallalieu, Frederick William Baird, Sir John Lawrence Gee, Captain Robert Manville, Edward Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Mason, Robert Balfour, George (Hampstead) Gilbert, James Daniel Matthews, David Barker, Major Robert H. Giyn, Major Ralph Mitchell, Sir William Lane Barlow, Sir Montague Goff, Sir R. Park Moles, Thomas Barnett, Major Richard W. Gould, James C. Molson, Major John Elsdale Barnston, Major Harry Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff) Green, Albert (Derby) Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Morden, Col. W. Grant Betterton, Henry B. Gritten, W. G. Howard Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Birchall, Major J. Dearman Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E. Morrison, Hugh Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Blades, Sir George Rowland Hallwood, Augustine Murchison, C. K. Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox) Bowles, Colonel H. F. Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Nall, Major Joseph Brassey, H. L. C. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Neal, Arthur Breese, Major Charles E. Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Briggs, Harold Harris, Sir Henry Percy Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Broad, Thomas Tucker Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Brown, T W. (Down, North) Hennessy, Major J. R. G Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Bruton, Sir James Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Parker, James Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool) Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Hills, Major John Waller Pearce, Sir William Butcher, Sir John George Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Carr, W. Theodore Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Pennefather, De Fonblanque Casey, T. W. Hood, Joseph Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Cautley, Henry Strother Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Perkins, Walter Frank Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Hopkins, John W. W. Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W. Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Pratt, John William Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Prescott, Major W. H. Churchman, Sir Arthur Hunter-Weston, Lieut-Gen. Sir A. G Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spendar Hurd, Percy A. Rankin, Captain James Stuart Clough, Sir Robert Jameson, John Gordon Raper, A. Baldwin Cohen, Major J. Brunel Jodrell, Neville Paul Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N. Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Johnson, Sir Stanley Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Johnstone, Joseph Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Cope, Major William Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke) Reid, D. D. Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Remnant, Sir James Curzon, Captain Viscount Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Renwick, Sir George Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Kidd, James Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) King, Captain Henry Douglas Roberts, Samuel (Hereford. Hereford) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Rodger, A. K. Dawes, James Arthur Lane-Fox, G. R. Rothschild, Lionel de Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Larmor, Sir Joseph Roundell, Colonel R. F. Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H (Univ., Wales) Royden, Sir Thomas Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Lindsay, William Arthur Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill) Edge, Captain William Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath) Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Lorden, John William Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Elveden, Viscount Lort-Williams, J. Seager, Sir William Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Lowe, Sir Francis William Sharman-Crawford, Robert G. Falcon, Captain Michael Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith) Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray M'Connell, Thomas Edward Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Fell, Sir Arthur Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Simm, M. T. Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Waddington, R. Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Wallace, Thomas Brown (West Down) Winterton, Earl Steel, Major S. Strang Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Wise, Frederick Stewart, Gershom Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley) Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Sturrock, J. Leng Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent) Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Sugden, W. H. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Wood, Major Sir S. Hill-(High Peak) Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Sutherland, Sir William Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Taylor, J. White, Col. G. D. (Southport) Young, E. H. (Norwich) Terrell, George, (Wilts, Chippenham) Whitla, Sir William Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Younger, Sir George Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Williams, C. (Tavistock) Thorpe, Captain John Henry Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Tryon, Major George Clement Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Gilmour and Turton, Edmund Russborough Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir M. (Bethnal Gn.) Mr. Dudley Ward.
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D. Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central). Rendall, Athelstan Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W. Grundy, T. W. Rose, Frank H. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Royce, William Stapleton Barton, Sir William (Oldham) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Sexton, James Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hayward, Evan Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Bottomley, Horatio W. Holmes, J. Stanley Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. John, William (Rhondda, West) Spencer, George A. Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Jones G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Bromfield, William Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Swan, J. E. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kennedy, Thomas Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Cairns, John Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Cape, Thomas Lawson, John James Waterson, A. E. Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Lowther, Col. Claude (Lancaster) Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) Lunn, William Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Wilson, James (Dudley) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbrdge) Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South) Mills, John Edmund Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Entwistle, Major C. F. Morgan, Major D. Watts Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Finney, Samuel Myers, Thomas Gillis, William Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Glanville, Harold James Poison, Sir Thomas A. Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Raffan, Peter Wilson Hogge.
Coal Mines Deficiency
18. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,500,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, to provide for the Deficiency arising under the Coal Mines Control Agreement (Confirmation) Act, 1918, and for Advances under Section 7 (5) of the Coal Mines Emergency Act, 1920."
Question put, and agreed to.
Road Grants (Unemployment Relief)
19. "That a sum not exceeding £3,500,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for Road Grants to relieve Unemployment."
Question put, and agreed to.
Unemployment Grants
20. "That a sum, not exceeding £300,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31et day of March, 1922, for Grants to Local Authorities, etc., in the United Kingdom for assistance in carrying out approved Schemes of useful work to relieve Unemployment."
Question put, and agreed to.
Home-Grown Wheat Guarantee
21. "That a sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for the Expenditure arising out of the Guarantee to Growers of Home-grown Wheat of Fixed Prices for the 1920 crop used for milling into Flour."
Question put, and agreed to.
Corn Production Guarantee (England and Wales)
22. "That a sum, not exceeding £15,000,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for the Expenses arising out of the Guarantee of Minimum Prices for Wheat and Oats produced in England and Wales."
Question put, and agreed to.
Corn Production Guarantee (Scotland)
23. "That a sum, not exceeding £4,400,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for Expenses arising out of the Guarantee of Minimum Prices for Wheat and Oats in Scotland."
Question put, and agreed to.
Export Credits
24. "That a sum, not exceeding £3,000,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, to provide for Advances in respect of Exports of goods wholly or partly produced or manufactured in the United Kingdom or guarantees in connection therewith."
Question put, and agreed to.
Prize Claims
25. "That a sum, not exceeding £35,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for Claims by British, Allied, or Neutral Third Parties against Ships or Cargoes condemned or detained as Naval Prize."
Question put, and agreed to.
Navy Estimates, 1921–22
25. "That a sum, not exceeding £25,418,500, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for Expenditure in respect of the Navy Services, namely:—
Question put, and agreed to.
Army Estimates, 1921–22
27. "That a sum, not exceeding £37,444,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charges for Army Services, including Army (Ordnance Factories), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, in respect of an estimated net total cost of £84,135,850, and of liabilities outstanding on the first day of the year."
Question put, and agreed to.
Revenue Departments Estimates, 1921–22
28. "That a sum, not exceeding £8,450,650, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in the Estimates for Revenue Departments, namely:—
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolutions to' be reported To-morrow.
Ways and Means
Considered in Committee.
[Sir E. CORNWALL in the Chair.]
Resolved,
"That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, the sum of £493,823,809 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."—[ Mr. Hilton Young. ]
Resolution to be reported To-morrow.
Navy and Air Expenditure, 1919–20
Considered in Committee.
[Sir E. CORNWALL in the Chair.]
I. Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1920, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, namely:—
( a ) That the aggregate expenditure on Navy Services exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for these Services by a sum of £7,054,288 8s. 3d.;
( b ) That the aggregate receipts in aid of Navy Services exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated in aid of these Services by a sum of £10,499,054 2s. 4d.;
( c ) That, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the total difference between the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services and the net expenditure are as follows, namely:—
And whereas by a Vote of Parliament during the present Session (Parliamentary Paper. No. 51, of Session 1921), a further sum of £100 has been granted for the expenditure of the year 1919–20, and the appropriation of additional receipts in aid of such expenditure has been sanctioned to the amount of £7,054,188 8s. 3d.
II. Whereas it appears by the Air Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1920, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, namely:—
( a ) That the aggregate expenditure on Air Services exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services by a sum of £578,666 8s. 1d.;
( b ) That the aggregate receipts in aid of Air Services exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated in aid of those Services by a sum of £327,451 9s. 8d.;
( c ) That, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the total differences between the Exchequer Grants for Air Services
And whereas the said total surpluses on certain grants for Navy Services have been temporarily applied, so far as necessary, in making good the said total deficits on other grants for Navy Services.
Resolved,
1. "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—[ Mr. Hilton Young. ]
and the net expenditure are as follows, namely:—
And whereas, by a Vote of Parliament during the present Session (Parliamentary Session Paper, No. 47, of 1921), sanction has been given for the appropriation of the said excess aggregate receipts, amounting to the sum of £327,451 9s. 8d., and a further sum of £251,214 18s. 5d. has been granted to meet the balance of the said excess aggregate expenditure.
And whereas the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Air Services have been temporarily applied towards making good
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
Land Settlement Amendment [Money]
Resolution reported,
"That it is expedient—
(i) that the periods within which sums may be issued out of the Consolidated Fund under Section fourteen of the Land Settlement (Facilities) Act, 1919, and Section twenty-six of the Land Settlement (Scotland) Act, 1919, for the purpose of certain loans to be made by the Public Works Loan Commissioners, and within which advances may be made by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland to tenants of small holdings under Section twenty-nine of the Land Settlement (Scotland) Act, 1919, should be extended so as to be periods ending on the expiration of four years after the passing of those Acts respectively, or on such later date as the Treasury, after consultation with the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries or with the Secretary for Scotland, as the case may be, may fix, instead of periods ending on the expiration of two years after the passing of those Acts; and
(ii) that the maximum amount to be issued out of the Consolidated Fund to the said Commissioners under the
part of the said total deficits on other grants for Air Services.
Resolved,
2. "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—[ Mr. Hilton Young. .]
said Section twenty-six should be three million five hundred thousand pounds instead of two million seven hundred and fifty thousand pounds."
Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I would like to move a reduction of this sum.
No reduction can now be moved.
12 M.
I shall have therefore to ask for the information which I require, and if it is satisfactory I daresay the House will be prepared to vote this money. This Vote is, after all, for a very substantial sum of money, and it is for settling ex-service men on the land in England and in Scotland. In the first place, we are invited to permit unexpended moneys to be used for a further period of two years in the case of England, and in the case of Scotland there is an actual increase from £2,750,000 to £3,500,000. Since this Vote was first printed the whole situation in regard to expenditure has altered, and in particular with reference to the sort of expenditure that is here being dealt with. I refer especially to the announcement made to-day at Question Time that a committee of business men was being set up to go, I presume, into all these matters. This whole question of settling ex-service men and other deserving persons on the land, of house-building, of laying out holdings and so on, is just the sort of subject a competent Business Committee might look into, with advantage. In view of the radical alteration in the situation created by the announcement made to-day, we ought to give that Business Committee an opportunity of looking into the policy, details and possible results of these schemes, and the administration of these very large sums. We are dealing here with scores of millions. There is £20,000,000 for England and a very substantial sum for Scotland. Had I been a little quicker, I should have moved to reduce the Scottish sum by £500,000 which would still leave Scotland with an extra £250,000—not a small sum, as the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge), will admit—to play with, until this Committee, announced with such loud trumpeting, has a chance of examining the situation. I was also going to invite the Government to reduce the two years' period to six months, in order to give an opportunity for the Committee to get to work. We have a right to ask whether the Government is going to insist on the whole of this money and on the whole of the period, during which the unexpended English monies can be used, before this wonderful Committee under the chairmanship of the present Minister of Transport, goes into the matter.
My second point is this. I wish to ask the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, whether this sum of money will play any part in connection with the proposed 20 per cent. cut in Estimates? It would be out of order to discuss other directions in which a cut might be made, but we ought to be told whether it is intended to economise on the ex-service men's land settlement scheme. Nor is it improper to ask, further, whether the Minister feels justified in seeking to get the whole of this sum, unless he has been able to effect a 20 per cent. cut in other parts of his Estimate? I have no desire to pry into the secrets which are between the Minister and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, but the matter is very mysterious. The day has passed, on which Government Departments were to have either notified economies or given way to others and before voting this large sum we have a right to know the results of the earnest consideration, which I have no doubt was given by the Minister to this aspect of the question. The same thing applies even to the Scottish Board of Agriculture. I believe a 20 per cent. cut and a good deal more is possible, even in Scotland
I hesitate to deal with another matter, which is purely Scottish, but which affects the administration and expenditure of this money. My attention has been directed—as has no doubt that of others—to some extravagant statements in the Press in regard to the land question in the Highlands, and in particular the question of deer forests. It has been said that vast areas have been cleared of the population engaged in agriculture, and these areas handed over entirely for the preservation of game. I am not prejudiced against sport, or a crank on the subject—
The hon. and gallant Member is getting away from the point.
Allegations have been made that in Scotland trees are still being cleared, and the crofters turned off to make way for deer. If that is the case are we absolutely sure of our position? What is the use of settling men on the land at very great cost, some £3,000,000, if we are not certain that no pressure will be brought to bear—with compensation no doubt—to remove them so that deer cultivation may go forward? I should like some assurance from the Secretary for Scotland. There is another matter that affects both England and Scotland—
What about Wales?
It will doubtless interest the hon. and gallant Member. There is a great deal to be done in the settlement of the ex-service men on the land. I want to know if ex-service women are to be included, and particularly—
That is quite irrelevant. This is a Financial Resolution, and the hon. and gallant Member is not entitled to review the whole situation.
Then I should like to know in a matter affecting additional holders. We are told that between 1,400 and 1,500 of these have made application in Scotland at a further estimated cost of £1,200,000. I do not want to review the whole matter at this late hour. I refer to the statement in the memorandum accompanying the Financial Resolution as to the abnormal circumstances that have prevailed that here prevented progress. There is now and has been for some time unemployment amongst the building operatives. We have been told that there are thousands of bricklayers out of work and subsidiary craftsmen. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton (Mr. G. Lambert), raised the question as to whether in the rural areas the Government building operations were to be dropped—the cottages required for the small holdings, say. There seems some further exxplanation required. As to the delay in house building when men are out of work? Why is it the money for building has not been spent?
I regret that my hon. and gallant Friend did not deem it his duty to be present during the Committee stage of this Resolution. Had he been here, or had done me the honour to read what I said, he would have learnt that the Bill was an agreed Measure with all parties. I regret very much that he should see his way to obstruct its progress as he has done to-night.
Obstruct!
I said "Obstruct!" The purpose of the Bill is twofold. The first object is to extend the time during which these loans for the settlement of the ex-service men can be granted both in England and Scotland, and the reason why that extension is necessary is stated quite fully, and I should have thought convincingly, in the White Paper. My hon. and gallant Friend says that he does not quite understand the abnormal circumstances of the building trade and he has referred to the unemployment that exists in that trade. If he had been as familiar as the Minister of Health in England and myself in Scotland have been with those conditions I do not think he would have asked for any further explanation. There is the difficulty of finding men ton construct the buildings, and this phenomena is common on both sides of the Border. It accounts for the delay. While the extension of time is being sought for the purpose of meeting the slowing of operations it does not involve-a single additional copper from the Exchequer. I have no doubt that that fact, when the hon. and gallant Gentleman reflects upon it, will be consoling to him in the light of one fact of his argument. As to the 20 per cent. reduction in relation to this matter—it applies equally to England and Scotland—I should be surprised if my hon. and gallant Friend should, upon reflection, think proper to effect so false an economy as to stand in the way of the settlement of ex-service men on the land.
I did not suggest it.
I beg the hon. and gallant Gentleman's pardon. I think he did. I cannot imagine a direction in which economy would be a more false move. The second part of the Bill refers entirely to Scotland, and it assures that the additional sum of £750,000 shall be made available for the purpose of settling ex-service men upon the land. It is all very well for my hon. and gallant Friend to be critical, but this sum was allocated for the purpose after very careful and full deliberation by a Cabinet Committee. That sum was allocated for this purpose, and was announced by me months ago in Scotland, and it was accepted by those concerned as a gratifying announcement and really as an assurance of law and order there, and I should be no party either to diminishing or extinguishing that sum, which was granted after the most anxious deliberation, and which has been publicly announced as the result of Cabinet deliberation on the matter. The Bill has been agreed to by all parties in the House, and I shall content myself by saying that I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will withdraw his somewhat fatuous objection at this very late stage to a useful Measure and not introduce so irrelevant a topic as that of deer forests which has recently been the subject of investigation and the Report which is now under consideration. Until I have had time to consider the matter it would be premature to make any announcement.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by Sir Arthur Boscawen and Mr. Munro.
Land Settlement Amendment Bill,
"to amend Section fourteen of The Land Settlement (Facilities) Act, 1919, and Sections twenty-six and twenty-nine of The Land Settlement (Scotland) Act, 1919, by extending the periods of time therein respectively mentioned, and to raise the limit on the aggregate amount which may be issued out of the Consolidated Fund under the said Section twenty-six for the purpose of advances to the Board of Agriculture for Scotland" presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time to-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 201.]
Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Bill
Order read for resuming adjourned Debate on Question [ 11th July ] "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.
Corn Sales Bill
Order for Consideration of Lords Amendments read.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
CLAUSE 1.—(Sale of corn to be by weight.)
From and after the commencement of this Act, every contract, bargain, sale or dealing relating to corn shall, unless it is made or had by weight only and in terms of and by reference to the hundredweight of one hundred and twelve imperial standard pounds, be null and void:
Provided that this Act shall not apply to any contract, bargain, sale or dealing—
(iii) for or relating to corn imported into the United Kingdom in cases where such contract, bargain, sale or dealing provides for delivery in the original bags in which the corn was imported (subject only to rebagging in replacement of damaged bags);
(iv) for or relating to corn growing on or in the land and not severed there-from.
Lords Amendment:
After paragraph (iii) insert a new paragraph:
"(iv) for or relating to corn bought or sold for export from the United Kingdom."
I beg to move "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This is a proposal intended to safeguard corn sold for export. This point was not made sufficiently clear in the Bill, and the corn trade have asked for this Amendment.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
In paragraph (iv), leave out the words "and not severed therefrom," and insert "or to corn unthreshed."
I beg to move "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
It is merely an Amendment excluding from the operation of the Bill the corn in the sack.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 5.—(Adaptation of Acts and awards providing for payment based on price of imperial bushels or other measures.)
(2) Where under the provisions of any Act or award or other instrument any payments are to be calculated on the price or value of any measure of wheat, barley, or oats other than the imperial bushel, the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries may certify what number of imperial pounds ought, having regard to the foregoing provisions of this Section, to be substituted for that other measure, and thereupon those provisions shall have effect as if the payment were to be calculated on the price or value of the number of imperial pounds so certified.
Lords Amendment:
In Sub-section (2), after the word "Fisheries" ["the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries"], insert "or as regards Scotland the Board of Agriculture for Scotland."
Agreed to.
CLAUSE 6.—(Interpretation.)
In this Act the expression "corn" shall, where the context permits, include wheat, barley, oats, rye, maize, and the flour, meal, and bran derived therefrom, and any mixture thereof, and this Act shall apply to dried peas, dried beans, linseed, and potatoes, and to the seed of grass, clover, vetches, swedes, field turnips, rape, field cabbages, field kale, field kohl-rabi, mangels, beet, and sugar beet, flax, and sainfoin in like manner as it applies to corn.
Lords Amendment:
Leave out the word "flour" ["the flour, meal, and bran derived there-from."]
I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This is the only Amendment of any importance. The milling trade has suggested that flour should be excluded because it is sold in sacks of 280 lbs., and to require it to be sold in different weights would be inconvenient.
I do not wish to stand in the way of the passage of this Bill, but I am sorry that it has been thought necessary to omit the word "flour." The object I have in this Bill is to diminish the weights that men have been accustomed to carry, and one source of great gratification has been the universal chorus of appreciation by millers and others in the country districts that they were going to be relieved of these heavy weights. I am sorry for the sake of uniformity that in another place this Amendment has been thought necessary.
The object of this Amendment is to help the agricultural interest by introducing a uniform system of measures of these articles which are bought and sold by farmers. The farmer deals in flour as one of the general public, and he buys for his own consumption, and, of course, he is not directly concerned with the weights and measures. Flour is now sold in sacks of 280 lbs., and to introduce a different weight now would be very inconvenient to the flour trade and the millers generally, and they have made a request that flour should be omitted. As far as agriculture is con- cerned, I do not think that there is any objection whatever. Without doing any damage to other trades, it was considered in another place that it would be better to omit the word "flour," and I am prepared to agree to that course.
No doubt the millers would naturally object to having a change of weights suddenly forced upon them by this Bill, because the whole of their sacking accommodation would be unsuitable. One can quite understand that but the suggestion that 280 lbs. is not too much for a man to carry is one with which I cannot agree. It is a moral certainty that carrying these heavy weights ruptures almost every man who has to do it, and that is a disgrace to this House. I have heard it stated that the reason nothing is done to alter the weights of flour is, because it is adult labour, and therefore we ought not to interfere. It would be a stupid thing if the workmen in this business had to have, sooner or later, a strike or labour dispute to reduce the weight of flour that is to be ordinarily carried in a sack. I should have liked to hear the Minister of Agriculture at least give some intimation that this matter would be taken into consideration, so that at least the millers might not be taken by surprise, and might not, on some future occasion, when the House decides to deal with the matter, raise that as an objection.
As the Mover of this Amendment, when the Bill was before a Committee of this House—on which occasion it was not agreed to—I am glad that it has now been made by the Lords. The two hon. Gentlemen who have spoken against it cannot, I think, have been speaking with real knowledge of the subject. I am a large buyer of flour, and know the weights of the sacks, which I myself have carried. This Bill does not in any way compel bakers or millers to buy or sell certain weights of flour in certain sacks, and even if the word "flour" were included it would not in any way control the size of the sack. There would be no legal objection to a miller selling a 5-cwt. sack, or to a baker buying a 5-cwt. sack, if they chose to do so. The object of the Bill is that buying and selling shall be done in hundredweights. But, although bakers buy and millers sell flour by the sack of 280 lbs., as a matter of fact it is not delivered in sacks of 280 lbs. each. Flour to-day is bought and sold to a very large extent—almost exclusively—in 140 lb. bags, which is a very convenient weight; but the price at which it is bought and sold is so much per 280 lbs., and it is simply to avoid unnecessary bookkeeping that it is proposed to exclude it from the Bill. I can assure the House that there is no intention whatever of forcing excessive weights on the people in the trade, and even if it were included in the Bill it would not in any way affect that question.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.
Kitchen and Refreshment Rooms (House of Commons)
Ordered, That Sir Charles Hanson be discharged from the Committee and Major Hamilton be added to the Committee.—[ Colonel Gibbs. ]
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. Speaker adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of 26th July.
Adjourned at Twenty - eight Minutes after Twelve o'clock.