House of Commons
Monday, August 8, 1921
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Lee Conservancy Bill,
Southampton Corporation Water Bill,
Thames Conservancy Bill,
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
De Trafford Estates Bill [ Lords ],
Stock Conversion and Investment Trust Bill [ Lords ],
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Slough Trading Company, Limited (Canal), Bill [ Lords ],
West Ham Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Rhymney and Aber Valleys Gas and Water Bill [ Lords ],
Read a Second time:
Ordered, That the Standing Orders relative to the Committal stage of Private
Bills be suspended, and that the Bill do lie upon the Table.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]
Aberdeen Corporation (Electricity Works Railway) Order Confirmation Bill,
Bridge of Allan Water, etc., Order Confirmation Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Cardiff Extension) Bill (by Order),
Third Reading deferred till To-morrow.
New Writ
For the County of Glamorgan (Caerphilly Division), in the room of ALFRED ONIONS, Esquire, deceased.—[ Mr. Griffiths. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Clothing Materials
2.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if any quantities of any articles or materials used in the manufacture of clothing are held by the Government or on their behalf for disposal, and, if so, what articles or materials, and in what quantities and at what prices; if any increases have been made by the Government on the prices asked by them for such articles or materials during the last three months, and, if so, what increases; if any purchases of any articles or materials used in the manufacture of clothing are being made or are intended to be made; and, if so, what articles or materials, and at what prices?
The Board of Trade do not hold any stocks of materials used in the manufacture of clothing, but if the hon. Member has in mind any Government property held by the Disposal Board, I can only suggest that he should address a question to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. I assume that the hon. and gallant Member's question does not relate to stocks of reparation dyestuffs.
How do you regulate the sale of these things? Are they sold every day or every week? What do you do with them?
Just as the market will take them.
Is that how you get rid of them?
Yes.
Foodstuffs (Government Stocks)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if any quantities of any articles of food are in the possession of the Government or held on their behalf for disposal; if so, what articles and what quantities and at what prices; if any increases have been made by the Government in the prices asked by them for such articles during the last three months; if so, what increases; if any purchases of any articles of food are being made or are intended to be made; and, if so, what articles, what amounts, and at what prices?
The Government still hold limited stocks of wheat, sugar, bacon, butter, mutton and lamb. The wheat stocks total 53,000 tons and the sugar stocks 180,000 tons. For reasons frequently given to the House, it is undesirable to divulge quantities of other commodities held for disposal. I am sending to the hon. and gallant Member price lists for all the varieties of these foodstuffs for the last three months. No further purchases are being, or will be, made.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if the Government are negotiating for the sale of their stock of butter to a few large wholesale firms; and, if so, whether, in view of the great shortage of butter now prevailing, they will take steps to prevent the public being charged an unduly high price?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The second part, therefore, does not arise.
Board of Trade Estimates
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the increased work thrown on his Department by recent legislation, he anticipates the need for a larger Vote in the forthcoming year?
I do not anticipate that a larger Vote will be needed for the Board of Trade in the forthcoming year.
Are we to conclude that the Safeguarding of Industries Bill will be a dead letter and will impose no work upon the Department?
I think it is rather early to come to that conclusion.
Trade and Commerce
British Trade Exhibition
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether it is the intention of his Department to hold a British trade exhibition next year; if so, in what building in London the exhibition will be held; whether it is possible to hold this exhibition, in the interests of foreign buyers, always in the same building, as the constant changing of buildings and districts during recent years has been most confusing to all buyers who regularly visit these British trade exhibits?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Negotiations are now in progress for holding the London Branch of the British Industries Fair of 1922 at the White City, where it was accommodated last year. I agree with my hon. Friend as to the desirability of securing a permanent home for the Fair, and there is a good prospect of such accommodation being eventually available in the exhibition buildings which the British Empire Exhibition propose to erect in Wembley Park.
Are the Government overlooking the fact that the Crystal Palace belongs to the nation, and that consideration might be given to exhibitions being held there?
I have very carefully considered that. An exhibition was held there once, but it is not nearly so convenient a site for an exhibition as that which has been selected.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a direct service of electric trains from both the East and West of London?
I am quite aware of that, but we have now direct experience of holding fairs at both places, and it is not nearly so convenient as the site selected.
Foreign Import Tariffs
9, 10, and 19.
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether his attention has been drawn to the increases in import tariffs which have recently been brought into operation, or are now proposed, by the United States of America, France, Italy, Switzerland, and Spain; what steps he proposes to take to protect British export trade interests;
(2) whether he will issue a White Paper showing the increases in the import tariffs now proposed by the United States, Italy, and Spain on the principal articles of export from the United Kingdom;
(3) whether he is aware that the increases in the import tariffs proposed by the United States Government will have a serious effect, not only on our trade with America, but on many export trades in this country, probably involving the closing down of some works and causing further unemployment; whether he proproses making representations to the United States Government and pointing out that, owing to the present unsettled exchange throughout the world, any tariffs which prohibit the importation into America of British goods customarily sold there must necessarily severely lessen the power of British buyers to purchase their goods in America?
I am aware that the adoption of the tariff proposals now before the United States Senate may have a serious effect on our export trade. Any representations made to my Department about these or the other new rates referred to will receive careful consideration, with a view to framing arguments which could usefully be put to the foreign Governments concerned. Full particulars of the tariffs have already been published in the Board of Trade Journal, but I could not undertake to issue a comparative statement of the old and new rates, as such a compilation would, on account of changes in classification, involve an undue amount of labour and expense, and be of little practical service.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether the time has now arrived to adopt a policy of reciprocity?
Lace Imports
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the French Government has recently increased the import duty on machine-made cotton lace to such an amount as will make the export of these goods to France impossible; and that at the same time large quantities of lace of French manufacture are being imported into this country without the payment of any duty whatever; and whether, seeing that he has been requested by the Nottingham Chamber of Commerce to make representations to the French Government with a view to a modification of their prohibitive import duty and has declined to take any action, he will reconsider this decision?
I am aware of the facts referred to by the hon. Member, but on the information supplied to me by the Chamber of Commerce, I have not seen my way to recommend that representations should be made to the French Government. I shall, however, be happy to consider any further information which may be placed before me.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the present situation is seriously prejudicial to the staple industry of Nottingham, and that for the first six months of the year £376,000 worth of lace has been imported from France, while British labour is idle and capital unemployed?
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, now, that the lace trade of Nottingham is struggling to revive, he will consider the propriety of paying our Allies the compliment of imitation by imposing a duty on this side?
I believe the facts are as stated by my hon. Friend (Mr. Atkey), and I have no doubt that any further information he desires will be sent to him.
Imports from Germany
asked the President of the Board of Trade the value of the imports from Germany from the 1st January to 31st July, 1921; and if he can give similar figures for the same period of 1920?
The aggregate figures of the trade of the United Kingdom with individual countries are, for reasons of economy, prepared only quarterly. I am accordingly, unable to supply the desired particulars for the period to 31st July. The value of the imports consigned from Germany registered during the period from 1st January to 30th June, 1921, was £11,797,491, and in the corresponding period of 1920, £11,895,943.
Canadian Trade
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether his attention has been engaged by the recently published statistics of Canadian trade for the year ending 31st March, 1921; whether such statistics show that imports from the United States of America were more than fourfold those of the United Kingdom; and whether any steps are being taken by his Department to assist British exporters to obtain a large share of the trade of this highly important market?
The facts are substantially as stated, and active steps are being taken by my Department. Within the last few months His Majesty's Trade Commissioners from Toronto and Winnipeg have toured the United Kingdom and have interviewed over 700 firms. The chief subject under discussion has been the possibility of meeting competition of American firms. His Majesty's Trade Commissioners in Winnipeg brought with him from Canada a representative range of samples and catalogues of American-made goods which are selling in large quantities in the West of Canada, and which there is good ground to believe can be equally well supplied from this country. The exhibition of these samples, together with the information given by the Trade Commissioner as to prices, methods of marketing, etc., created great interest, and from the views expressed by many manufacturers and merchants I hope and expect that considerable business will result.
Is the Overseas Trade Department in a position to put exporters in touch with the right class of agents throughout Canada?
That is so. As a matter of fact, we have already done so in a number of cases arising out of this visit. In many cases exporters have been put in touch with agents, and I understand that several contracts have been made in the last few weeks.
Trade Catalogues
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether any steps are taken by consular officers to bring the catalogues sent them by British firms to the notice of prospective buyers?
Steps are always taken to bring the catalogues of British firms to the notice of prospective buyers, either by arranging and displaying them in the offices of the Consulate or by arrangement with the local British chamber of commerce. As an experiment a special catalogue and trade journal library has been installed at Rotterdam. The catalogues are numbered and indexed and advertisements are placed in the leading Dutch papers, and other steps taken to give the library publicity. The names and addresses of callers are immediately sent to the firms whose catalogues have been inspected.
What has been the result of this experimental library? If funds permit, will the Department make an extension of the scheme?
Will the Department encourage our traders to publish their catalogues in the language of the country to which the catalogues are being sent? Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware—I think he is—that the absence of this precaution has given our trade competitors many advantages?
Yes, I am aware of that. The Department is always bringing the matter to the notice of firms. One of the most practical ways of helping is to give firms the opportunity of seeing, as we see, the catalogues of their foreign competitors published in the languages of the countries in which the firms compete. As regards the experiuental library, it has proved a success in the four months it has been working. Nearly 100 callers have been in to see the exhibition, and between 200 and 300 written inquiries have been made. In all cases the names of British firms have been given to the inquirers, and the British firms have been notified. With regard to finance, which is always difficult, if it is possible in one or two other places to extend the scheme, it will be well worth doing.
Foreign-Made Goods (Exhibition)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what steps have been taken to obtain and display locally to British manufacturers samples of foreign-made goods with which British firms could expect to compete successfully?
A considerable number of local exhibitions of selected samples from the standing exhibition of foreign samples in London are held in manufacturing centres, where their display is arranged for in collaboration with the local chambers of commerce. Twenty-six such exhibitions have been held in the course of the last 12 months.
Do employée visit these exhibitions as well as employers?
Yes, that is so. In practically every case of these exhibitions in the provinces both workmen and employers have visited them.
Coal Industry
Retail Prices
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the retail price of coal has advanced since the coal strike ended; if so, what is the extent of the increase and on what grounds is it justified; and what steps the Government are taking to prevent the public being exploited in this matter?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given to questions on this subject by the hon. Members for Finchley and Southwark on the 25th July, of which I am sending him a copy.
Output
asked the Secretary for Mines the output of coal for each week since the miners have resumed work after the recent stoppage; can he say how they compare with the highest weekly output before the War and with the best weekly output during the War years; and if he considers still higher figures can be reached when the whole of the coal mines of the country return to normal working conditions?
I have been asked to reply. The output in the first three weeks after the resumption of work was 2,352,700, 3,935,200 and 4,331,800 tons, respectively. Later figures are not yet available. No weekly record was kept before February, 1914. Between then and the outbreak of war the highest weekly figure was 5,404,400 tone in June, 1914, and the highest achieved since 1914 was 5,309,000 in December, 1920. No doubt higher figures than those for last month can be reached when the whole of the nines return to normal working conditions, but the hon. Member will realise that actual output depends, of course, not only on productive capacity but also on market conditions.
Fiery Mines (Spraying Experiments)
asked the Secretary for Mines if any definite results have been obtained from the experiments with machines for the spraying of stone dust into the air of fiery mines; whether the information obtained up to date is available to the public; and whether, if it be the case that with the decrease in the fiery content of the mine atmosphere there is. also a substantial decrease of the moisture content, any means has yet been found of overcoming this new danger?
I have been asked to reply. I am afraid I cannot quite follow the hon. Member's question. General Regulations under the Coal Mines Act require, as a precaution against explosions, that coal dust in mines shall be treated in certain proportions either with water or with stone
STATEMENT showing the quantities of coal produced in European countries in 1913 and 1920 SO far as particulars are available. The figures of output in 1913 relate to the countries named as then constituted, those for 1920 to the countries as constituted in that year. The figures have in most cases been obtained from official sources, but where official figures have not been received the most reliable unofficial sources available have been utilised. Thousands of Tons (Avoirdupois). 1913. 1920. United Kingdom … … … … … 287,430 229,532 Germany … … … … … 188,433 129,236 France … … … … … 40,187 34,153 * Russia … … … … … 33,206 5,850 Belgium … … … … … 22,474 22,053 Austria … … … … … 16,195 132 Hungary … … … … … 1,042 — Czecho-Slovakia … … … … … — 10,951 Spain … … … … … 3,951 5,281 Holland … … … … … 1,843 3,876 Sweden … … … … … 358 415 (1919) Poland … … … … … — 5,986 Turkey … … … … … 716 700 Approximate Total for Europe, including countries not specified above. 596,000 448,000 * Including output of the Saar and Lorraine, 12,383,000 tons. Including output of the Saar and Lorraine, 12,383,000 tons.
Questions
Liquor Controlling Prices
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that whisky at the controlled price only yields the retailer 8 per cent. gross profit and that under the Licensing Bill he will be expected to
dust or other incombustible dust. I will send the hon. Member copies of these Regulations and the Reports on which they were based. The spraying of stone dust may in some cases decrease the humidity of the mine air, but this is rather an advantage than otherwise.
Ex-Service Men
Board of Trade
asked the President of the Board of Trade if ex-service men are being discharged from the various Departments under his control in favour of those who have not served in the War; and, if not, is every effort being made to employ ex-service men in preference to those who have not served?
It is not the fact that ex-service men are being discharged from the Board of Trade in favour of non-service employés, and every effort is made to retain ex-service men in preference to those who have not served.
Civil Service
31.
asked the Prime Minister if any Reports have been received from heads of Departments upon those ex-service candidates who failed to qualify in the late examinations; whether he is aware that there are already 17,000 cases of this nature waiting to be dealt with; in view of this position, whether he will give instructions for the Investigating Boards referred to in paragraph 9 of the Third Interim Lytton Committee Report to be set up without further delay; and whether any ex-service men will be represented on these Boards and, if so, what percentage?
I have been asked to reply. Heads of Departments are being requested to submit Reports on those ex-service candidates who failed to qualify at the recent examinations, but whose cases should, in their opinion, be considered by the Investigating Board when constituted. Meantime it is impossible to forecast the number of cases in point. With regard to the third and fourth portions of this question, I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member on the 2nd inst.
Post Office
asked the Postmaster-General whether disabled ex-service men are being discharged from the Post Office although they have performed their duties satisfactorily; and, if so, will he state the reason for this action?
If the hon. Member will let me have particulars of the cases which he has in mind, I will have inquiry made.
Government Staffs and Offices
Board of Trade
asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the number of clerks and administrators employed in the Enemy Debts Section of the Board of Trade; and what was the number so employed 12 months ago?
On the 1st August, 1921, there were employed in the Clearing Office (Enemy Debts) 946 clerks, 133 typists and shorthand-typists, and 256 administrative officers. There were, in addition, 16 serving in Berlin, and 3 in Vienna. On the 1st August, 1920, the staff numbered 421 clerks, 57 typists and shorthand-typists, and 56 administrative officers. The expenses of the Clearing Office do not fall on the Exchequer, but are defrayed out of the charge of 2½ per cent. on payments made to British claimants. Twelve months ago the work of the Clearing Office consisted chiefly of collecting, examining, and forwarding the claims of British creditors against Germany. Very few German claims had then been received under Article 296 in respect of pre-War debts. The duties of the Clearing Office have since then been considerably enlarged, and to cope with the increase of work a corresponding increase in staff has been necessary. Over 200,000 claims have been received from Germany, amounting to about £43,000,000, and over 89,000 claims have been lodged against Germany, amounting to £67,000,000. British claims for £25,000,000 have been admitted, and the amount paid over to the claimants. A considerable number of claims have been contested by the Germans.
The Clearing Office has also taken over the administration of claims under Article 297 of the Treaty of Versailles in respect of British property, rights and interests in Germany, and up to date over 6,600 claims have been lodged, amounting to £42,000,000. Claims for proceeds of liquidation paid up to date to British nationals under Article 297 amount to about £8,500,000 sterling. The foregoing figures relate to claims as between the United Kingdom and Germany under Articles 296 and 297 of the Peace Treaty. The Clearing Office is, however, operating on behalf of many other parts of the British Empire as well. Work under the Austrian and Bulgarian Treaties has also been added to the activities of the Clearing Office. This involves not only handling the claims against Austria and Bulgaria, but also the duty of dealing with Austrian and Bulgarian property in this country and applying the proceeds towards the satisfaction of British claims.
Temporary Buildings
asked the Prime Minister whether, in order to obtain the reduction of the Civil Service, apart from the Ministry of Pensions, to a pre-War basis in the course of the present year, he will confer with the First Commissioner of Works with a view to securing the demolition during the forthcoming vacation of the various temporary buildings erected during the War in the parks, lakes, and open spaces of London for the accommodation of additional staff necessitated by the War, seeing that this course would not only automatically secure the reduction in numbers of the Civil Service for which he is anxious, but would also remove a serious public eyesore, and restore to the people the open spaces to which they are entitled for recreation and enjoyment?
I trust the hon. Member will permit me to refer him to the very full statement made by the First Commissioner of Works with the full approval of the Government to Lord Gainford in another place on the 28th July last. Every effort, as he will see from that statement, is being made to get rid of the temporary buildings in the parks, but I would remind the hon. Member that so long as it is necessary to provide accommodation additional to that which is available in the permanent Government buildings, the temporary buildings on public sites for which no rent is paid are much less costly than accommodation that has to be rented.
Is it not a fact that these temporary buildings were erected to meet war emergency, and that the best way to get the Civil Service back to the pre-War basis is to remove these buildings and leave them with the same accommodation that they had pre-War?
Ministry of Transport
asked the Minister of Transport whether he anticipates a reduction in staff, both in the higher and lower grades, in next year's Estimates?
asked the Minister of Transport what reductions in staff in his Department he thinks probable in consequence of the decontrol of railways; when these reductions will be made; and what saving in expenditure will they effect?
Substantial reductions in staff of all grades are now possible, and will be effected without any unnecessary delay, but I am not yet able to make a more definite announcement.
Office of Works
asked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, what buildings will be dispensed with next year; and what reductions he hopes for in staff?
The number of buildings which will be dispensed with next year will depend entirely upon further reductions in staffs of Government Departments generally, and it is practically impossible, at this stage, to make any definite statement. Apart from a number of small premises, the accommodation surrendered will be almost entirely buildings in parks and public spaces.
Do I understand that the First Commissioner of Works has recommended no decrease at all in public buildings next year, and no decrease in staffs?
No, my hon. Friend must not assume that.
What have they recommended?
Offices, Old Bailey
asked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he has recently engaged large suites of offices in the Old Bailey, London, E.C.; and for what purpose and what is the annual rent of same?
Large suites of offices in 7–11, Old Bailey, have been acquired on lease at a total rent of £7,250 per annum, exclusive of rates and taxes, for the accommodation of the Ministry of Labour Trade Boards and for the Department of Overseas Trade as show rooms for the exhibition of foreign samples. These samples were previously exhibited in premises in Basinghall Street, which have been surrendered.
Can the hon. Gentleman say if there was any reason for choosing this particular locality?
It was the most central position available in the City.
And the most costly.
Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman inform the House, in view of the figure given of £7,000 as rent, what the rates will represent?
Not without notice. I will get that for my hon. Friend.
Questions
Anglo-Japanese Treaty
asked the Prime Minister whether any article of the Anglo-Japanese Treaty provides for assistance being afforded by Japan to Great Britain in the event of internal difficulties or disturbances in India?
The answer is in the negative.
Is the hon. Member aware that the contrary is so frequently stated that it may lead to very serious consequences?
I have heard it stated, but there is no foundation whatever for it.
Greece and Turkey
asked the Prime Minister if the Allies are prepared to offer mediation with a view to peace in Asia Minor between the Turks and Greeks; and whether the time for it has arrived; and whether the Greeks have asked or been given permission to occupy Constantinople?
The question of the present hostilities between Greece and the Nationalist Turks is likely to be discussed among the Allies at the meeting of the Supreme Council at Paris, and the reply to the first two parts of the question must depend on these deliberations. The reply to the last part of the question is in the negative.
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to an Athens telegram alleging that Lord Granville has received a long telegram from him stating that Great Britain raised no objection to the aims pursued by Greece, even including the occupation of Constantinople by that State; whether he is aware of the disastrous results of such uncontradicted stories upon the minds of our Indian fellow subjects; and whether he can give an assurance that there is no truth in the telegram referred to?
The whole story is a fabrication.
Government Expenditure (Business Committee)
asked the Prime Minister whether he can now give the names of the Members of the Business Committee who are to consider the Reports of the various Departments respecting reductions in their expenditure?
asked the Prime Minister whether any Members of the House of Commons will be Members of the new Business Committee?
asked the Prime Minister whether the terms of reference to the new Economy Committee will allow that Committee to consider the possibility of either reducing the status of the Ministry of Transport or of merging its functions and duties in another existing Ministry?
asked the Lord Privy Seal the terms of reference of the Committee to be presided over by the Minister of Transport; whether this Committee will take evidence; and whether the evidence taken by the Committee, as well as the Report, will be available for the Estimates Committee of this House?
In the unavoidable absence of the Prime Minister and Chancellor of the Exchequer, I am unable to give the terms of reference to or composition of the Committee.
Is it not the business of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to look after the finances of the country, and not the business of an outside committee?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer is the primary financial authority in the Government, but it is open to him and to the Government to seek the assistance of anybody whom they think is capable of giving it on questions whether of finance or of policy or of administration.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the terms of reference have been approved by the Cabinet; and, if so, is he not able to give them?
No, Sir. They have not been approved or considered by the Cabinet.
Does the right hon. Gentleman's reply mean that it will be impossible for him to furnish the terms of reference to this House until the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer return from Paris?
Yes.
If that is so, that will not be until after the rising of Parliament?
Oh, no. I hope that my right hon. Friends are not going to be detained in Paris as long as we shall, unfortunately, be detained here.
Have any business men who have seats in this House been asked to join this Committee?
No.
I have already stated, that until the return of my right hon. Friends I am not in a position to make any statement as regards the composition of the Committee.
Does that mean that the Cabinet has not considered this question at all?
No, Sir, it does not.
asked the Prime Minister whether any saving on the Treasury Estimate will be made in consequence of the exercise of its functions by the new Business Committee?
I cannot say until the Committee has reported.
asked the Prime Minister whether, with reference to the contemplated examination of the replies of Departments to the Treasury circular of 13th May last by a special Committee of business men, it is proposed to divulge to that Committee information of a confidential nature or otherwise which has not been supplied to this House?
All information necessary to enable the Committee to report to the Cabinet will, of course, be available to it.
Will confidential information be given to these gentlemen who are outside this House?
Any information required to enable them to make the report which they are asked to make will be given.
Will the Committee have power to summon Ministers before them and ask for information?
A Committee of this kind cannot do anything without the sanction and authority of the Government?
And of this House.
asked the Prime Minister whether the Business Committee will review the financial position, including the revenue, of the country?
I am not sure that I rightly apprehend the purport of this question. If I do, the answer is that the Committee will not be asked to report on taxation.
Will they be asked to look into the whole financial position of the country as to whether we are paying our way, for example. Is not that necessary?
No. I do not think so. They will be asked to review expenditure in the light of the financial situation about which, if they are not already informed, they will get the information.
In face of the tremendous opposition with which this Committee is meeting, would it not be much better to drop the Business Committee altogether?
On what grounds is it considered that this Committee will be better able to discharge the functions of the Government than the Government itself?
That is a matter for argument.
Peace Treaties
Albanian Frontier
asked the Prime Minister if, on the question of the Albanian-Greek frontier, His Majesty's Government is supporting the Greek as opposed to the Albanian solution; and, if so, why?
The question of the future frontiers of Albania is at present under discussion with our Allies, and it is not possible to make any statement as to the course which these discussions are likely to take.
Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the statement in the Press that we are supporting the Greeks against the Albanians, and can he contradict the statement that that is part of our policy?
I cannot be expected, without notice, to know every statement that appears in the Press, or to express an opinion as to a statement which I have not seen. If the hon. and gallant Member will put down a question he shall have an answer.
That is exactly what my question is—whether His Majesty's Government is supporting the Greeks?
Questions
Ministry of Transport
asked the Prime Minister whether, after the passage into law of the Railways Bill, he will be able to make his promised statement as to the future of the Ministry of Transport?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave on this subject, on the 6th July last, to my hon. Friend the Member for Wood Green.
Shall we have a statement before the House rises?
I cannot say.
Russia
Famine
asked the Prime Minister whether it has now been decided that the famine in South Russia will be discussed at the forthcoming or present meeting of the Supreme Council; and what is to be the attitude to this question of His Majesty's Government?
asked the Prime Minister whether, in considering the question of Allied assistance being given to relieve the famine in Russia, His Majesty's Government's representatives will insist on precautions being taken to ensure that such relief should not be absorbed by the Red Army, and that the proposed relief shall only be accorded subject to a satisfactory agreement being entered into with the Russian Soviet Government as to the future disposition of the Russian Red Army?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Pending that discussion, I am not in a position to make any statement about the attitude of His Majesty's Government.
Does that mean that His Majesty's Government are going to Paris with no fixed policy, and if that is not true, why cannot the House be told what is the policy of the Government?
What it means is that when we have entered into discussion with our Allies, it is not helpful but prejudicial to any friendly agreement with them if statements be made beforehand of our intentions.
Pre-War Foreign Debt
asked the Prime Minister what steps are being taken to obtain from the present Russian Government formal acknowledgment of responsibility for the payment of Russia's pre-War foreign debts; and what is the present position of the negotiations on the subject?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the declaration of recognitions of claims signed at the same time as the Russian Trade Agreement, and published with the Agreement. As regards the last part of the question, this is a subject which will come under consideration by the Supreme Council at present sitting.
Are the Government still pursuing the policy of the protection of the bond holders in this country?
Without accepting the particular form in which my hon. Friend has put his question, I can, perhaps, answer what he has in mind by saying that the attitude of the Government is unchanged.
Questions
Railway Commissioner (Appointment)
asked the Prime Minister what is the name of the Railway Commissioner appointed in accordance with the provisions of Section 3 of the Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1888, who has experience in railway business, as provided for in Sub-section (2); and what is the nature and extent of such experience?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. The Commissioner in question is Sir Lewis Coward. His experience and qualifications are such that I was fully satisfied that his appointment came within the provisions of the Act.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer that part of the question which asks who is the person who has knowledge of railway business as provided in the Act? Is it not a fact that nearly the whole of Sir Lewis Coward's business life has been as a barrister, concerned only with legal matters?
I am fully aware of the Act and fully aware of the experience of Sir Lewis Coward, and it is not as my hon. Friend says.
Was it the intention, when these two eminent people were unfortunately called to other climes, that they should be replaced by lawyers who are now being recognised as men of business knowledge.
That is not so.
Surely that is so.
Sinn Fein (Foreign States)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that accredited representatives of the Irish Republic are endeavouring to present their credentials and obtain recognition from foreign States; and is he able to say that the establishment of any form of government in the South of Ireland, with the right to separate diplomatic or consular representation, will not be conceded?
I am informed that no foreign government has granted recognition to any Sinn Fein representatives. As regards the last part of the question, I would ask my hon. and gallant Friend to await the statement which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister hopes to make before the House rises.
Will the right hon. Gentleman have that answer sent to the Sinn Fein envoy to the Argentine.
I see no necessity.
Expiring Laws Continuance Bill
asked the Lord Privy Seal when he proposes to take the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill; when it will be printed so that Members may be able to see the list of Bills scheduled; whether the Bill will be taken in Committee of the whole House; and whether, seeing that for the first time very novel and highly controversial matter is being introduced, he will ensure that the Bill is discussed as early as possible?
This Bill was introduced on Friday. It is now in the hands of the printers, and should be available for the use of hon. Members to-morrow. It will be taken in Committee of the whole House, but it will not be possible to discuss the Bill before next week at the earliest. I fear that I do not understand the last part of my hon. Friend's question. I cannot agree that any novel or highly controversial matter is being introduced into the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill this year.
Is the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill intended to continue War-time restrictions? Is it not a fact that the Bill continues restrictions on the sale of sweets in theatres, which were supposed to be abolished no later than December, 1921?
The object of the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill is to keep in force legislation which otherwise would expire.
Transport
Railway Season Tickets
asked the Minister of Transport whether the railway companies now refuse to season ticket holders the privilege they have always enjoyed in the past of laying up their tickets for a period of over one month; and, if so, what is the explanation of this new departure?
No direction has been issued to the companies in regard to this matter. I understand that the privilege to which the hon. Member refers was withdrawn in 1918, but I am not aware of the reasons which led the railway companies to take that action.
Morning Milk Trains
asked the Minister of Transport whether he has received any protests against refusals of railway companies to run morning milk trains, with the result that the milk when delivered is often sour; and whether he can impress upon the railway companies the desirability of proper arrangements in the public interest?
My right hon. Friend received only one complaint of this nature, which is being investigated with the railway company concerned. The provision of special facilities for milk must depend upon the volume of traffic offering.
Hop Pickers (Excursion Trains)
asked the Minister of Transport whether it is the intention of the railway companies to run special excursion trains at reduced fares for the service of hop pickers in the southern counties during this month and next; can he state at what reduction on ordinary railway fares it is proposed to issue tickets; and for how long such tickets will be available?
I understand that it is the intention of the South Eastern and Chatham Railway Company to run such trains at reduced fares, and that the actual fares to be charged are under consideration by the company. Single journey tickets will be issued in each direction.
Main Roads, Northumberland
asked the Minister of Transport if and when he can take steps with a view of having the main roads of Northumberland put into reasonable repair and fit for motor and other traffic?
I must remind the hon. Member that the upkeep of the roads remains a responsibility of the road authority. Careful consideration is being given to estimates submitted to the Ministry of Transport by the Northumberland County Council for the repair and improvement of roads in their area, and I anticipate that the funds at the disposal of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport will enable substantial assistance to be afforded to these schemes which should result in considerable benefit to traffic and road users.
Will the hon. Gentleman see that the improvements contemplated take place at a reasonably early date?
As I have explained in my answer, it is primarily a matter for the local authorities. The function of the Ministry is limited to giving assistance to any authority which is carrying out the improvements which have been decided on.
North British Railway Company
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that great hardship has been inflicted on the smaller shareholders of the North British Railway Company, who have been deprived of the whole of their income from their railway shares for this year owing to his refusal to accept the twice repeated judgments of the Railway and Canal Commission, and to pay the £985,000 due to the North British Railway Company; and whether his Department is prepared to make an interim payment and advance to any shareholders who can prove actual distress, ample security being in his hands to meet any judgment against the company through its share of the £60,000,000 provided in the Railway Bill?
I cannot add anything to the very full answers given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport to the hon. Member for South Kensington on 28th July, and to other hon. Members on previous occasions. My hon. and gallant Friend is under a misapprehension in thinking that any portion of the sum of £60,000,000 can be retained by the Government as security for any overpayments made to the railway company.
Surely the North British Company will receive some of that £60,000,000, and is not that security to enable him to do this act of justice and relieve distress?
As to its being an act of justice, that is the whole point to be settled. In reference to the receipt by the North British Company of portion of the £60,000,000, no money is to be paid over until the beginning of the new year. The 1st January, I think, is the date named. Then it has to be distributed among the companies according to certain conditions laid down in the Railway Bill. If it is a good security for the raising of money there is no obstacle in the way of the company doing so.
They would have to pay interest on a debt which the Government owes to them.
That is the whole point to be settled.
Canal Tolls
asked the Minister of Transport whether he received a letter from the Canal Association, dated the 11th June last, pointing out that the increases of canal rates, tolls, and charges authorised by him in September last will cease to be operative on the 15th of February, 1923, and asking for an assurance that the question of their continuance would be dealt with by the Government at an early date; whether any answer has yet been made to this letter, now two months old; and whether the Government has yet decided what steps shall be taken to preserve to canal owners and carriers the right to make these increased charges after the expiration of the present sanction?
The question raised by my hon. Friend is one of far-reaching policy and refers to tramway undertakings and docks in the same way as to canals. Almost all these undertakings have permanent charging powers which are to-day inadequate, and Parliament, in giving authority for temporary increases, delegated to the Minister of Transport the responsibility (after consideration by an Advisory Committee) of seeing that the charges, though adequate, with efficient and economical management, should not be excessive in the interests of the public. The policy to be pursued in this matter is one which must be reviewed, having regard to the need for reduction in administrative expenditure, and it should be possible, early in the autumn, to let these canal, tramway, and dock undertakings know the conclusion arrived at by the Government, in order to enable them to decide whether private legislation should be promoted or not.
Am I to understand that the Ministry will give notice to the Canal Association as to policy, in sufficient time to enable the companies to make up their minds whether private legislation is necessary or not?
Yes, it is desired to arrive at a decision in time to enable that to be done. Any decision will be subject to Parliamentary ratification by legislation next Session.
Questions
Refugees (Middle East)
asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs what amount the High Commissioner reported to be the monthly cost of Armenian refugees at Bakonba and elsewhere; and whether the Assyrian camp still costs £26,666, the Russian camp £9,700, the Serb-Croat-Slovene camp £10,000, the Egyptian camp £12,300, and the Cyprus camp £2,800 a month?
I have been asked to reply. As far as the refugee camps in Mesopotamia are concerned, it would be misleading to give monthly figures of cost, as dispersal of the refugees is proceeding rapidly. The camps of Assyrian and Russian refugees have already been, or are on the point of being closed, and the sums of £400,000 and £20,000 respectively provided on the Middle Eastern Services Vote will, I anticipate, cover all expenses for maintenance and also for final disposal. In the case of the Armenians, there are nearly 5,000 who by reason of age, infirmity or other causes are unable to maintain themselves, but every effort is being made to find some means of providing for them without throwing a charge on public funds. If these efforts are successful, the £120,000 provided on the Estimate wil be a final charge. I am informed by the Foreign Office that the refugees in Serbia are not in camps, but are distributed over the country; the cost of their maintenance has now been reduced to £6,000 a month. The camps in Egypt cost £12,300 per month, and the camp of Russian refugees in Cyprus £2,800 per month.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why this country should pay anything for refugees from Persia, which has just renounced us root and branch; and whether the Armenian refugees are to be permanently provided for unless they can provide for themselves, which they will never do voluntarily except for something that suits them better?
That is argument rather than a question.
China (Japanese Immigration)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it has been suggested that Japan's disabilities as to the right of emigration into British Columbia give her certain preferential rights in China, more especially those specific provinces; whether this contention has officially been brought to the notice of His Majesty's Government; and, in this case, what these preferential rights in China are?
His Majesty's Government are unaware of any such suggestion. The last part of the question does not therefore arise.
Heligoland
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the actual position to-day of the island of Heligoland and its inhabitants; whether the conditions of the Treaty handing over the island to Germany have not been carried out, and that Germany is now treating the islanders with harshness, and not in accordance with their promises when we gave them possession; and will the attention of the approaching Conference be drawn to this matter with a view to obtaining better treatment for the Heligolander?
The island of Heligoland is a part of the German State. Although the agreement of 1st July, 1890, under which the island was ceded to Germany, has not been revived, I have no information to show that the special privileges of the islanders have been withdrawn. There does not seem to be any reason why the attention of the Supreme Council should be drawn to the matter.
Syria
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether France has received any mandate for Syria, or whether she is still acting there as an occupying Power only; and, in the former case, whether the mandate contains any provisions as to the right of charitable societies and others to open schools?
France has been selected as the mandatory power for Syria by the principal Allies. The provisions of the Syrian mandate have not yet, however, been approved by the Council of the League of Nations. Although the draft mandate presented by the French Government to the Council has not yet been published, I understand that it contains articles similar to Nos. 8 and 10 of the draft mandate for Mesopotamia.
Safeguarding of Industries Bill
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received representations from the French Government concerning the position of France under the provisions of the Safeguarding of Industries Bill; and whether he is prepared to make any statement appertaining to the same?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, but it is clearly not possible to state in advance what action under the Bill, when passed, it may be found necessary to take in regard to France or any other country.
Would it not be advisable to take action previously, so that if anything is to be done, it can be done in the Bill?
I do not see how action can be taken in advance.
What is the nature of the representations?
I could tell the hon. and gallant Member if he would give me notice of the question.
Egypt
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will consult Field-Marshal Lord Allenby, on his approaching visit to this country, as to the expressed desires of the Egyptian people and the possibility of the repeal of martial law and a free election to ascertain the wishes of the Egyptian people?
Lord Allenby will naturally be consulted on these and other matters relating to Egypt.
Is it the intention of the Government to carry out the promise of Mr. Gladstone to evacuate Egypt ultimately?
Ultimately!
Pig Breeding
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether there have been recent instances in which the use of arsenic to improve the hair and skin of pigs for exhibition purposes has been followed by fatal results; and whether, in the public interest, he can state if arsenic is ever given to pigs to be used as food?
The Ministry has received no reports with reference to the use of arsenic for the purpose in question, and no instance has been brought to the Ministry's notice of arsenic being given to pigs which are intended for food.
Wheat and Oats (Payment Claims)
asked the Minister of Agriculture what steps were taken by his Department to notify the growers of wheat and oats of their right to claim the the payments provided for under Clause 2 of the Corn Production Acts (Repeal) Bill; what period was allowed during which claims might be made; and what action he proposes to take in regard to claims sent in after the expiration of that period?
Very wide publicity was given to the requirements with regard to claims in respect of the minimum prices of wheat and oats, under the Corn Production Acts. A form of claim was sent at the end of May or beginning of June to every occupier of an agricultural holding exceeding one acre, and notices explaining the contents of the form and emphasising the importance of the claim being made before the 30th June were issued to London and provincial newspapers to the number of about 750 on the 21st May, 18th June, and 25th June. On the 21st June, moreover, a special notice was issued with a covering memorandum to editors of newspapers asking them to give it prominence. In deference to representations which were made that many growers of wheat and oats were unable to complete their claims by the 30th June, it was decided that claims might be made up to and including the 18th July, and a notice to this effect was issued on the 28th June, in which growers were warned that no further extension of time would be granted. In addition to the notices issued to the Press, notices were also published in the April, May, and June issues of the Journal of the Ministry.
It was necessary that a final date for the receipt of claims should be fixed, in order that they may be examined by the county committees as far as possible before the land is ploughed up, and, in view of the long period allowed in which to make a claim, I feel that farmers who failed to send in their claims by the prescribed date have no legitimate grievance. I do not propose, therefore to accept claims made after the 18th ultimo, except where the occupier entered into occupation of the land after the 30th June.
Are we to understand that if any of these farmers—who are often unbusinesslike in their methods—fail to send in their claims in time, they will be debarred from receiving any compensation at all?
That is the same question.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the question of extending the date as far as Scotland is concerned? Does he realise that a later date is necessary there?
May I not ask just one question? This is a very important point. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]
The hon. and gallant Member asked the same question over again, which prevents other hon. Members from putting their questions.
May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether you do not think it advisable that I should ask the right hon. Gentleman whether any letters or forms have gone astray, and whether the Ministry have considered what attitude is to be taken up with regard to those farmers who have received no acknowledgment of their forms?
That is a new question, and the hon. Member will please put it down.
I will.
Food Supplies (Home Production)
asked the Minister of Agriculture the acreage of land in the United Kingdom under wheat and oats in 1918, 1919, 1920, and 1921, respectively; and whether, in view of the danger of a shortage in the nation's bread and food supply, through the decline in coal and other exports, the Government proposes to do anything to encourage or compel the home production of food supplies in order that the nation may be less dependent than at present on foreign sources of supply?
The acreage of land under wheat and oats in the United Kingdom in 1918, 1919, and 1920 was as follows:
It is not anticipated that there will be any difficulty in obtaining from the usual sources the supplies of wheat and oats required for the United Kingdom.
Education
Local Authorities (Expenditure)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to the great disparity shown by local education authorities in the amount of the increases of their expenditure in the current financial year as compared with 1920–21; whether a self-contained area, such as the Isle of Wight shows a decrease of 3 per cent. in the cost of elementary and an increase of 3·8 per cent. in the cost of higher education, as compared with an increase in the County of Middlesex of 10·7 per cent. in elementary and of 25·6 per cent. in higher education; and is he able to assign a reason for this and similar irregularities in the increase of expenditure in all parts of the country?
I am aware of the disparities to which the hon. and gallant Member calls attention. In the main they are due to the facts that different authorities adopted the Burnham standard scales of salaries for teachers from different dates and that the introduction of these scales involved a greater addition to the existing salaries in some areas than in other. The estimates of the authorities' expenditure are being examined, and, where necessary, inquiry is being made into the reasons for particular increases.
Does the right hon. Gentleman expect that next year we shall not have these disparities. Will the figures for next year be more even?
I hope so.
Elementary Schools, Norfolk
asked the President of the Board of Education whether the local education authority for Norfolk have for many years experienced great difficulty in staffing their elementary schools, especially in the more rural and isolated districts; that this difficulty increased from year to year; that in 1920 the authority was obliged to close several schools on account of lack of teachers; that, in consequence, the State grant was jeopardised and the local authority were informed by the Board that something must be done by way of better salaries or otherwise to improve the efficiency of their teaching staffs; that the authority thereupon decided, after consultation with the teachers, to apply standard scale II of salaries, and in advertisements for teachers this fact was announced; that as a result the vacancies have been considerably reduced; that the Board having now intimated their decision that scale I of salaries had been allocated to Norfolk the effect upon applications for teaching appointments has been very marked; that the fact that scale III has been allocated for Norwich and that scale II is in operation in the Holland division of Lincolnshire will have a further prejudicial effect; and whether, in view of all these circumstances, he will reconsider this matter and sanction the application of scale II as originally agreed to by the Norfolk local authority?
I am aware that the local authority for Norfolk have experienced difficulty in staffing their elementary schools. The allocation of scale I to the area of the Norfolk Local Education Authority was made by the Standing Joint Committee comprised of representatives of the local education authorities and of the teachers and presided over by Lord Burnham. I have accepted the allocation of scales made by that committee as a basis of grant, and, as I have already stated, I cannot, in the present financial circumstances revise it in a direction which would involve increased expenditure.
Is it a fact that the Board threatened to withhold the grant?
No, Sir.
Report on Classical Education
asked the President of the Board of Education if he will arrange to have in the Vote Office a small number of copies of the Report on Classical Education available for Members of the House who are interested in educational questions?
Yes, Sir; I shall be glad to arrange for this.
Questions
Unemployment (Building Trade)
asked the Minister of Labour the total number of unemployed in the building trade in the United Kingdom who are in receipt of unemployed benefit; whether work in the building trade is available either in their own district or elsewhere for any who are receiving this benefit; and, if so, why are they not so employed?
At 22nd July there were 124,341 persons in the building trade in the United Kingdom in receipt of unemployment benefit. The greater proportion of these men are builders' labourers, whose chances of employment would be improved if the supply of craftsmen, particularly plasterers, were adequate. A number of the men are operatives connected with other industries, such as the iron and steel trade, and as these industries return to normal conditions many of the men will be absorbed back into industry. The number of unfilled vacancies was 2,360, and men were under submission for all the vacancies.
Does the hon. Gentleman suggest that bricklayers in the iron and steel trades are not capable of laying bricks for houses, and would not they be better employed building houses?
They are attached to particular work, and naturally will go back when that work is resumed.
Waste Materials Trade (Women's Wages)
asked the Minister of Labour the reason why he has withheld his sanction to putting into operation the agreed minimum rates for women workers fixed by the waste materials reclamation trade board; and whether it is the policy of the Department to disregard the requirements of the workpeople and to take cognisance only of the representations of the trade?
My right hon. Friend informed the General Waste Materials Reclamation Trade Board (Great Britain) in April that he was prepared to confirm the rates fixed by them as soon as the Board considered that the position of the trade would enable the rates to be paid generally. The board have since made no recommendation on this point. There was, I understand, substantial agreement on the trade board that it would be necessary to reconsider the rates as soon as they were confirmed. In these circumstances my right hon. Friend felt that he would not be justified in confirming the rates at the present time. The Trade Board has accordingly been asked to review the whole position. In reaching this decision special regard was had to the interests of the workers.
What steps are taken by the Department to ascertain whether a trade cannot pay a rate? Is it merely a case of accepting the verbal statement of the employers and allowing it to remain at that?
No. It depends on the action of the Trade Board itself.
Land Values Duties (Repayment)
The following Question stood on the Order Paper in the name of Sir A. S. Benn:
88. To ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if the repayment of the Land Values Duties repealed by the Finance Act, 1920, has been completed; and, if it has, will he state how many officials engaged on the work have been discharged and for how many has other Government work been found?
On a point of Order. Question No. 88 was not called, Mr. Speaker.
It is the hon. Baronet's fourth Question.
International Labour Conference
asked the Secretary of State for India whether Messrs. Chatterjee and Gupta, both of the Indian Civil Servie, are being sent to Geneva by the Government of India to represent India at the International Labour Conference; and, if. so, why the recommendations of the All-India Trades Union Congress that Messrs. Lajpatrai and Wadia should be sent have been overruled?
Messrs. Chatterjee and Gupta have been chosen as the two Government delegates. The two remaining delegates to represent the employers and the workers respectively have not yet been nominated.
Will the hon. Gentleman ask the Secretary of State when these two delegates are likely to be nominated?
Certainly.
Royal Navy
Cadets (Flannel Trousers)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether the cadets at the Royal Naval College, Dartmouth, are compelled by the order of the officer commanding to wear white flannel trousers all the year round on all occasions except church parade; and, if this is so, will he consider the substitution for white flannel trousers of trousers of a more suitable and economical colour and material?
Five pairs of white flannel trousers are included in the list of articles which parents are required, by Admiralty Regulations, to provide for naval cadets under training at Dartmouth. These trousers are worn at the discretion of the Captain of the College, the occasions on which they are used varying according to the season of the year, but they are not, as stated, worn on all occasions throughout the year except on church parade. The question of replacing them by grey flannel trousers was considered last year, but in view of the smarter appearance of white flannels and the importance of instilling into the cadets at an early age habits of smartness and attention to dress which will be of great value to them later as officers of a drilled and disciplined force, it was thought undesirable to make any change.
Officers' Separation Allowances
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the statement on the question of separation allowances to naval officers not having been made, he can now say what has been the decision arrived at on this question?
This question has been the subject of anxious consideration by the Board of Admiralty for many months past. It is by no means free from difficulty, and requires most careful examination from the point of view both of the comparative remuneration of naval and military officers as settled in 1919, and of the financial position of the country generally. The Board of Admiralty realise the arguments in favour of some form of marriage allowance being regarded as an appropriate part of the emoluments of naval officers, and are giving the matter the closest attention with a view to finding some means of overcoming the difficulties that stand in the way of the practical application of this principle.
Will my hon. Friend be able to make an announcement on the subject before the House rises?
No; I do not think it will be possible to deal with the question before the House rises.
Will my hon. Friend be able to make some more detailed statement on the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill?
I should like to consider that.
British Army
Acting Paymasters (Gratuities)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that during the War many appointments were made of suitable men as acting paymasters to the forces, and as such ranked as commissioned officers; whether some of such officers were supplied with uniform and others not, although they all ranked as commissioned officers; whether the War Office awarded gratuities to all acting paymasters, irrespective of dress; whether the Treasury have granted the award only to those who temporarily wore khaki, whilst those who remained in mufti (through no choice of their own) have not been given a gratuity of any sort; and whether the War Office could now arrange for all such officers as have served to be treated upon the same basis?
Acting paymasters who served throughout their time at home were treated in all respects as civilians, there being nothing of a military nature in their duties. Civilians were not eligible for War gratuities in any Department. For reasons of discipline, those who joined the forces abroad were given commissions and wore uniforms, and they were consequently given a War gratuity, as were other commissioned officers. I can hold out no hope of any further action.
Brevet Rank (Retired Pay)
asked the Secretary of State for War why brevet rank is not allowed to count as rank element in the assessment of retired pay; and on what grounds is brevet rank excluded from Table XVI. of Army Order 324 of 1919, while both temporary and acting rank are included?
The scale of retired pay is based on service in the substantive rank. Acting and temporary rank are under certain conditions included, because the officer was actually serving in the rank, namely, in a position normally carrying the rank. An officer does not serve in a brevet rank. The brevet is conferred as a reward for distinguished service, but it does not convey substantive promotion or change to duties corresponding to the higher rank. The effect to the officer is that he is advanced in the gradation list of the British Army.
Militia (Recruiting)
asked the Secretary of State for War when recruiting for the Militia will begin; and whether the depots for this force have been maintained since the Armistice?
It is hoped that recruiting for the Militia will open during the autumn, but this question is contingent on the final decision as regards the composition of the Militia. No depots have been maintained exclusively for the Militia.
Questions
Census (Registrars' Remuneration)
asked the Minister of Health if, in view of the heavy additional work involved in taking the Census, it is proposed to make any extra allowance to the local Registrars; and if the Registrars have received payment for the district planning work done in October and November of last year?
Yes, Sir; a scale of remuneration was fixed for the Census work, which is, of course, outside the duties of a Registrar, as such. Claims are now being received and dealt with; and payments on account have been made when applied for.
Post Office
Postal Rates (Increase)
asked the Postmaster-General whether his recent changes in postal rates have been sufficiently long in operation to enable him to judge if they are likely to result in that increase of revenue which he anticipated?
As stated in answer to questions by the hon. Member for the Acton Division (Sir H. Brittain) on the 21st June and the 12th July, no figures will be available before the autumn.
Postcards (Sale)
asked the Post-master-General if he has any statistics to show how the sale of postcards has been affected, if at all, by the recent advance in cost?
There has during the year been a diminution in the number of postcards requisitioned for sale at post offices, but whether and to what extent this diminution is the effect of the increase of rate on and from the 13th June last, I am not yet in a position to judge.
Questions
Trade Boards (Decisions)
asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of his having indicated in certain trades that Trade Board decisions can be given effect to only when the trade is capable of bearing the rates, he is prepared to introduce the legislation necessary to secure the production of employers' books, so that an independent authority may determine when the trade has reached that condition?
My right hon. Friend has stated his intention to examine carefully the administration of the Trade Boards Acts during the autumn, when every aspect of Trade Board legislation will receive full and close attention.
Duchy of Lancaster (Application of Capital Moneys) Bill
"to authorise capital moneys belonging to the Duchy of Lancaster to be applied, up to an amount not exceeding one hundred thousand pounds, as revenues of the Duchy," presented by Sir ROBERT HORNE; supported by Mr. Hilton Young; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 205.]
Business of the House (Safeguarding of Industries Bill)
I beg to move,
"That, if the day allotted under the Order of the House of 13th June for the Third Reading of the Safeguarding of Industries Bill be a Friday, the hour for the conclusion of Proceedings on that stage of the Bill shall be 4 p.m. instead of 4.30 p.m. as provided in the Order."
I understand that this will meet the general desire of the House, as I have substituted the hour of 4 o'clock for the hour of 3.30, as it originally stood in the Motion on the Paper.
Question put, and agreed to.
Orders of the Day
Railways Bill
[4TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
As amended ( in Standing Committee A and in Standing Committee B ), further considered.
CLAUSE 61.—(Settlement of disputes as to pay and conditions of service.)
As from the date when railways of which possession was taken under the Regulation of the Forces Act, 1871, and retained under the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919, cease to be in possession of the Minister, and until otherwise determined by twelve months' notice on either side (such notice not to be given before the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-three), all questions relating to rates of pay, hours of duty or other conditions of service of employés to whom this Part of this Act applies shall, in default of agreement between the railway companies and the railway trade unions, be referred to the Central Wages Board, or, on appeal, the National Wages Board, as reconstituted under this Act.
I beg to move, to leave out the words "on either side," and to insert instead thereof the words " by the trades union, or by any company, or amalgamated group of companies."
The object of this Amendment is, at the end of the period when it will be permissible to give notice for the termination of the agreement, to allow any company, railway, trade union, or amalgamated group of companies to give such notice. As the Clause stands, it might be that two or three out of four of the new groups might be desirous of terminating the agreement, but, apparently, unless they were unanimous, the agreement could not be terminated. The four groups are totally different, and it does seem to me to be impracticable to enforce a Regulation which enacts that the termination of the agreement cannot be carried out unless it is agreed to by all the companies. I think it is very necessary, therefore, that my Amendment should be accepted.
I hope my right hon. Friend will not think it necessary to press this Amendment. We are dealing with the part of the Bill concerning wages and conditions of service, and it is within the knowledge of all hon. Members that the railway companies and the men's unions met together and came to terms, which they desired to be embodied in the Bill. Those terms are now Part IV of the Bill. I should be the last to wish to say that Parliament might not make any alteration it thought wise and prudent in the Bill itself, but it should be noticed that these terms were agreed upon the condition that there was no material alteration in the Bill, and that if any material alteration were made, then the agreement, which is of the greatest value, we think, in the interests of industrial peace, should not hold good. The Amendment is a very important modification of the power of terminating the agreement and breaking the arrangement arrived at. As the Clause stands, it will be observed that notice cannot be given before the 1st January, 1923, and, therefore, there is a confident hope that the arrangement which is made in the Bill, in the event of any dispute arising in the industry, could not be interfered with before the 1st January, 1924, and then only on notice being given by one or other of the parties. My right hon. Friend moves to leave it to the option of either of the three trade unions, or any single company, or any amalgamated company, to break this bargain which has been arrived at. It is not limited, as he said, to the case of the amalgamated companies, one group desiring to vary and the other not. It would give to any trade union and to any railway company who is a party to the arrangement the power to break away from this bargain, and throw the whole question again into that disastrous state of dispute and misunderstanding between the railway companies and the men as in the past. I hope, therefore, the House will not accept the Amendment.
The Amendment raises, as the right hon. Baronet will admit, more than appears on the surface, because it clearly asks this House, not only to break an agreement made by the only bodies responsible for the railway companies and the trade unions, but it also raises the question which we on these benches are frequently asked. When a section of our members break away from an agreement, we are invariably twitted with being unable to control our people. We are asked, "What is the use of making agreements with you when your members will not observe the agreements?" I ask the House to remember that that is exactly what the right hon. Gentleman is inviting this House to do to-day. He is the vice-chairman of the Railway Companies' Association. The general managers of those companies have always been recognised as the spokesmen for the railway companies.
Certainly not.
I challenge any director or anyone in this House to say when the directors themselves made an agreement with their employés? The fact remains, and everybody knows it, that whether they were empowered or not, general managers of the railways of this country have always presumed to speak for their company. What is the history of how we came into this agreement? Here let me say that there are. Members in this House who disagree with the agreement for other reasons. We are blamed because we forfeited what is called a seat on the board. There are those in this House and outside who have strongly criticised the unions, and myself in particular, and accused us of giving away that right. It has been suggested that we did it under pressure. Now the right hon. Gentleman comes along and says, "I do not intend that you shall have either of the benefits of this collective bargaining," because immediately the Government announced that it was their intention, in the re-grouping, for the men's representatives to sit on the board, the right hon. Gentleman, addressing his shareholders, said that upon no consideration would he ever agree to that. He went on to say that it would lead to all manner of disasters, and he concluded by saying that, so far as his railway company was concerned, they were having nothing to do with it, whatever the, Government did. He was followed by a number of other railway chairmen. The general managers met us, and said quite frankly, "We not only do not believe that this is a workable scheme, but it is going to receive our bitter hostility," which was quite justified from their point of view.
4.0 P.M.
I would ask the House to remember the difficulties we were then in. We had the Government' making a proposal to us for seats on the board. We had the railway companies unanimous in saying they were not going to have it, and that they did not intend that it should work. We adopted the Government course of saying that we would go on the board, but what, earthly good would it be to pretend that there would be friendly relations when, as a matter of fact, one of the parties did not intend to have anything to do with it? Then the railway companies said to us: "We are anxious to have a proper understanding with our friends. We are anxious to have friendly relations. We want, if possible, to have smooth working on the railways. Now, you and ourselves are the best judges how to bring that about. Let us sit down and discuss the whole matter." We sat down, and discussed it for days and weeks, and ultimately came to an agreement—an. agreement, let me say, which, I believe, will do more for peace in the railway service than anything else I know—art agreement, mark you, that was resented: by many people who preferred strikes to amicable settlement, because do not let there be any misunderstanding or assumption that this scheme was welcomed; by all our people. We had to fight very hard to get this principle agreed to, but we fought hard, because we believed that: peace was essential to the railway world. Then the right hon. Baronet comes along to this House and says: "Oh, because I disagree, because my company disagree, because the Great Northern Railway Company has never taken kindly to this Bill, or anything connected with this Bill, I want to upset the arrangement." What would he say if, by persuading this House to take this action, he were responsible for disruption in the railway service? What if it resulted in breaking up this-agreement, because others who want to break it up would immediately jump at the opportunity? I, therefore, hope, not only that the Amendment will be rejected, but that he himself, as a railway chairman respnsible for one of the constituent companies, will realise that when the men desire peace he ought to do all that he can to help to bring it about. If he carried this Amendment—I am sure he will not—he would destroy the confidence of the men in collective bargaining. In any case, do not let him or any hon. Member who supports him ever twit the-workers for breaking their word, when the railway companies and general managers, who went into this agreement, have found themselves entirely unable to control the right hon. Baronet.
It is as well that we should know the true facts of the case. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) talks about breaking the agreement. The only persons who have broken any agreement, so far, are the trade unions. They have broken it in two instances already, and, they were parties to this agreement, whereas I was not a party to it. I have refreshed my memory only this morning, when I read the report of what took place on 2nd May at the Railway Companies' Association. An agreement, signed by Sir Herbert Walker, on behalf of the railway companies, was brought forward. The vast majority of the railway companies had known nothing whatever about it. It was agreed by Sir Herbert Walker and four or five general? managers. When it was brought before the Association, ten companies voted against it, 12 companies did not vote—they knew nothing about it and only heard it read in that room—and 21 companies voted for it. The agreement was that the Wages Board, which had been set up by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Transport about 18 months ago, should continue until a certain date, when a year's notice should be given, and that they should have the power to settle all disputes. That was signed by Sir Herbert Walker, I contend, without any justification, on behalf of the railway companies and by somebody representing the trade unions.
By myself.
When the Bill got into Committee we learned that the trade unions wished to alter it. Having agreed that this Board was to settle things, they turned round and wanted the settlement left out, and that was done. The right 'hon. Gentleman comes down and tells me that I am a party to breaking an agreement to which I never agreed when he himself, having signed it, has been a party to very important alterations.
I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman only wants the facts. Will he also tell the House that the words "and settled by" were deleted, the companies' spokesman agreeing that it was in accordance with the correct interpretation of the agreement? The hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Major Hills) will recollect that that was so.
Hear, hear!
I do not know who was the railway companies' spokesman.
Do not throw your man over.
I do not know who he was. I never appointed any spokesman, nor did the Association. The words which the right hon. Gentleman admits have been left out are most important words, because they gave the National Wages Board power to enforce their decisions. That is not all. The composition of the Board was altered. The composition of the Board to which the right hon. Gentleman appended his signature was four representatives of the railway companies, four representatives of the men, and four representatives of the public. That has been altered, and altered in such a way as to ensure that in no case shall the trade union representatives be otherwise than in an equality. There are to be six representatives of the trade unions, one appointed by the Trade Union Parliamentary Congress, and one by the Co-operative Society, making eight, because they are both trade unionists, only six representatives of the railway companies, and only two of the public. There are two vital alterations which have been made in the agreement. When the Parliamentary Secretary says that this is an agreement which it is absolutely impossible to alter, I would point out that it has been already altered in Committee in two important respects. Under those circumstances, whether my Amendment be right or wrong, I say that I have completely disposed of the arguments brought against it both by the Parliamentary Secretary and ' the right hon. Gentleman opposite. Although I have included the words, "by any company," and although I think any company ought to have control over its own affairs and arrange with its own men as to what wages should be paid and should not be controlled by another company in another quarter of England, or perhaps up in Scotland where the whole of the circumstances are absolutely different, I do not attach very much im- portance to them, because, before this notice can be given on 1st January, 1923, there will be no company to give it; we shall have only groups. I do, however, attach very considerable importance to the Amendment, and I hope now that I have explained that the Parliamentary Secretary was mistaken in saying that no Amendment could be made because it was an agreement, when two very important Amendments have been accepted, the Government will accept my Amendment, which is equally important.
I hope the House will not accept this Amendment, the effect of which would be to reduce the Wages Board to an absurdity. Any single company or any single trade union by breaking away could bring the whole system to an end. I want to tell the House the history of this bargain. The trade unions and the railway general managers met, as they have often met before and do meet in the ordinary course of business, to settle wage differences, and out of that meeting arose this scheme of Wages Boards. A settlement was then referred to the Railway Companies' Association, and was carried by a very large majority, though my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury), I know, opposed it, but whenever one ventures to speak for the railway companies in this House, one must always exclude my right hon. Friend.
Nine companies agreed with me.
My right hon. Friend moved the same Amendment in Committee upstairs, and he got so little support that he did not even divide the Committee. Those who sat on that Committee, and who know his directness of purpose and courage, know perfectly well that if there had been any chance of a small minority voting for him he would have gone to a Division. It is blamed against the Labour party that in the Committee upstairs they changed the agreement. I respectfully say that the changes were changes of form, and not of substance. The increase of the Members to 12 was passed to enable a third trade union representative to form part of the Wages Board. The deletion of the words, "and settled by" was carried for this reason. Compulsory arbitration, as everybody knows who has studied Labour questions, is deeply sus- pected in Labour circles, and, rightly or wrongly, it has no chance of being accepted. The words, "and settled by" were not intended to impose compulsion. It was pointed out that though that was not the intention the wording might mean compulsory arbitration. I will not argue the case for or against compulsory arbitration, but I do not think that my right hon. Friend ought to accuse the party opposite with the breaking of an agreement when all that they did was to leave out words which I do not believe expressed the intention of the parties. That agreement has been accepted on both sides. It is accepted by the very large majority of the railways. I myself believe and hope in it, and sincerely trust that the House will not do anything that will damage it.
I rise in a sentence or two to supplement what has been said by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Durham (Major Hills), and to make it perfectly clear that those who were responsible for trying to present the case of the railway employés in Committee were parties to no breach of faith in this matter. The hon. and gallant Member for Durham has cleared up all doubt regarding the deletion of the words, "and settled by" They were undoubtedly in the original memorandum, but no hon. Member will dispute for a moment that they might have had a very different meaning in an Act of Parliament, and a very much more final effect than the railway companies or the trade unions expected. It was the common desire of all parties to get a National Wages Board which would be perfectly balanced in character, and, if the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) will turn to the provision in the Bill, he will see that he has a Board which is fairly and completely balanced as regards the different interests.
No.
That is the view which we take. He said that there were two representatives of the Parliamentary Committee of the Trade Union Congress and of the co-operative movement, and, he added, two representatives of the public. That is not a strictly accurate representation of the position. The other two representatives are, one from the Associated Chambers of Commerce and one from the Federation of British In- dustries, so that both sides of what we may call industry and commerce are represented in exactly equal proportions. This difficulty has arisen from a set of circumstances over which, I think, no one had any control. The Section was inserted in the Bill while negotiations were still proceeding outside in reference to many of these important details, and as a matter of fact, these negotiations were continued right up to the very hour that this section of the Bill was considered in Committee. We simply, in Committee, gave effect to the agreement which had been reached by the railway companies and the trade unions outside, agreements which were held to represent a substantial improvement of this part of the Bill.
I have always recognised, as the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) knows, that he speaks entirely for himself, and possibly two or three others in this matter. We must, however, have discipline so far as this section of the Bill is concerned, and unless there is agreement to work this structure for all it is worth there can be nothing but a rabble in the railway industry of this country, and a great absence of the peace and concord which it is our desire to promote. I hope, for these reasons, the right hon. Baronet will not press this Amendment to a Division, because, if carried, it would have a disastrous effect upon the whole scheme of this part of the Bill.
Very little more need be said. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the City has not been completely at one with the other railway people in this House. There does remain this fact that the great majority, in point of numbers, of the railway companies in this country—the larger and more important main railway systems of Great Britain—look upon this Clause as an agreed Clause. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) said just now, it is a Clause that contains most valuable features. Certainly pains were taken to arrive at a settlement, for which the greatest credit is due to those who brought about the settlement under the terms of the Bill. I appeal, therefore, to the House to reject this Amendment.
The hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham) referred to two representatives appointed, one by the Chamber of Commerce and the other by the Federation of Associated Industries, counterbalancing the two persons appointed by the Trade Union Congress and the co-operative societies. But these two persons are also trades unionists—
Not necessarily!
A thousand to one they will be now. Will they have any interest in the railway companies? Probably not. The representative of the Federation of British Industries—will he have any interest in the railway companies? He may or may not be a small shareholder. The same applies to the other representative. Various questions which are vital to the future of the railways are to be left in the hands of a majority of people who have no direct interest in the railway companies at all! Who ever heard of any business being managed in its most important aspects by a person having no pecuniary interest in it? My hon. and gallant Friend beside me (Major Hills) is a sanguine gentleman. What will happen under this agreement in a few years' time no one knows, but surely in a matter of this sort commercial instinct and common sense ought to have full play! If a majority of the House had been in the House, and had heard the arguments, I certainly should have divided, for I cannot think that anybody who listened to the arguments put forward could come to the conclusion that their interests lay in a different direction. I cannot conceive of anybody whose interests are not either in the trade union movement or in trade, who heard the arguments I put forward, not voting with me. By the look of the House most hon. Members are outside, and as, if there is a Division, they will be met at the door by the Government Whips and will not in the least know for what they are voting, I do not feel it necessary to divide.
I only rise to correct the manifest error into which the right hon. Baronet has fallen. There has been no arrangement in Committee as to four Members of the National Wages Board referred to on p. 53 of the Bill—
I did not say that.
The argument of the right hon. Baronet proceeded on that basis—
No, No. The agreement undoubtedly—I have read it to-day—which was submitted to the Railway Companies' Association was that the Board instituted by the Minister of Transport should continue. That the Board was composed, as I said, of four, and four, and four. The constitution was left to be settled under the Bill, and now to-day instead of there being four, and four, and four, six and two, and six have been put in.
There, I think, the right hon. Baronet is wrong, and that is what I am trying to correct. The four remains as will be seen by a glance at p. 53. They have not been interfered with. There are two representing large users of the railways, and nominated by the Associated Chamber of Commerce and by the Federation of British Industries, and the other two representative of the small users of railways are nominated by the Parliamentary Committee of the Trades Union Congress and by the Co-operative Union. The balance is not disturbed at all. That is where I say, with all respect to my right hon. Friend—
I see the difference.
He was misleading, though it would not have any effect on anyone who knows the true facts. What are these? That on the National Wages Board, which heretofore has consisted of four representatives of the railway companies and four representatives of the men, we found it necessary, under the agreement, to increase the representation of the men to six. Accordingly, we made an Amendment in Committee increasing the representation of the companies to six.
The only mistake into which I have fallen—and I do not admit it was a mistake!—is in saying that the two representatives of the Trade Union Congress and the Co-operative Union represented the trading public, whereas they represent the trade unions. That is the only difference.
Amendment negatived.
CLAUSE 63.—(Reconstitution of Central and National Wages Boards.)
(1) As from the passing of this Act the Central Wages Board and the National Wages Board shall be reconstituted in the following manner:—
( a ) the Central Wages Board shall be composed of eight representatives of the railway companies and eight representatives of the railway employés. The railway companies' representatives shall be appointed by the railway companies. The employés' representatives shall be appointed by the railway trade unions, four by the National Union of Railwaymen, two by the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen, and two by the Railway Clerks' Association;
( b ) the National Wages Board shall be composed of six representatives of the railway companies, who shall be appointed by the railway companies, six representatives of the railway employés (two of whom shall be appointed by the National Union of Railwaymen, two by the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen, and two by the Railway Clerks' Association), and four representatives of the users of railways, with an independent chairman nominated by the Minister of Labour. The four representatives of the users of railways shall be nominated as follows: —
(2) Nothing in the constitution of either such Board shall be held to prejudice the right of any party to a reference to the Board to raise any point they may consider relevant to the issue, and any point so raised shall be taken into consideration by the Board.
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "Act" ["from the passing of this Act"], insert the words
"and subject to the condition hereinafter provided in paragraph ( c )."
I understand that the Amendment which follows a little lower down—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up!"]—can, according to your ruling, Mr. Speaker, be discussed with the one I have moved. That Amendment is to the following effect:—At the end of Sub-section (1) to insert a new paragraph—
"( c ) when matters affecting staff graded as stationmasters, yardmasters, goods, passenger, parcels, and other agents are being dealt with by the Central Wages Board, or the National Wages Board, the National Federation of Stationmasters, and Agents' Associations shall be entitled to be represented on those boards by the addition of a co-opted member appointed by that federation."
I wish to say at once that this Amendment is moved not in any spirit of antagonism to any other trade union, but merely with the view that minorities may have the same rights, and should have some representation. I submit on this ground that sections of labour, however small, should, if possible, be represented on these boards. Opposition comes from three or four quarters. I submit that they cannot be adequately represented by any other section. It has also been suggested that they would not be accepted by any Trade Union Congress or any Labour party, but I do not know that it is necessary that they should be accepted by the Labour party if they are following out legitimate trades union principles. That, I am informed, is their desire and ambition. It is suggested that they have up to the present been kept in existence with the help of the railway companies. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) will suggest that that is an illegitimate way of carrying on the management of the railway system.
An excellent way to run a trade union!
Anyhow, provided that the federation is thoroughly loyal to legitimate trade union principles! It may be suggested that the introduction on the National Wages Board or the Central Wages Board of representatives of the smaller unions in connection with the railway system would make it unwieldy, but I do not think that any other section of railway workers can claim, from the standpoint of work, the same variety as can this federation. I would further submit that they are only asking to have representation when any subject-matter which affects their grade is under discussion. The federation, I understand, was always recognised by the railway companies before they were controlled. I am also told that the Railway Clerks' Association has been accepted by the Government as the representative of the Stationmaster and Goods Workers' Association. I would suggest to the right hon. Member for Derby that if he can possibly accept this Amendment, it would, I believe, remove the objections the Minister of Transport has to it. I appreciate the point that an agreement made should be an agreement kept. But I am told that this has already been modified by agreements; and I suggest that as those for whom I speak have a general desire to have a representative when matters affecting their grade are discussed, it should be allowed. After all, it is not a very serious concession to make, and it might possibly work very materially for the smooth working of the railway system generally. I hope that the principle involved in this Amendment will be accepted.
I beg to second the Amendment.
My object in doing so is simply to pay what I believe is only common justice to the men concerned. It is within the knowledge of the House that several unions are already mentioned in the Bill, but no one union is allowed to speak for the whole of the railway employés. There is the National Union with so many representatives, and whose membership includes a number of locomotive men, but the separate union of locomotive engineers and firemen claimed to be represented, and they were included. I believe the National Union includes a goodly number of railway clerks as well, but the Railway Clerks' Association claimed to speak for the clerks, and they are properly included. That union also includes a large number of stationmasters and a large number of members of the Railway Clerks' Association.
As a matter of fact, this Federation of Stationmasters is a separate body dealing only with men of that grade, and it seems to me that they quite reasonably and properly ask to be included when discussions take place which directly relate to the staff in the grade with which that association is solely concerned. It will be noted that in the other Amendment relating to this point, which I understand we are discussing now, that they only ask for one man to be added to the Board when matters affecting the staff graded as stationmasters are under discussion. That simlpy gives this separate union, which is only concerned with stationmasters, the opportunity of being represented on the Board when these particular questions are being discussed. This is merely carrying out logically the policy which caused the Locomotive Men's Union and the Clerk's Association to be included in the first place. If this Federation is not to be given an opportunity of having one single representative when these particular matters are under discussion, then it would be logical to exclude the Clerks' Association and the Locomotive Men's Society, and leave the whole thing to the National Union. As that is not the case, I hope the Minister of Transport will see his way to accept this Amendment, or, at any rate, not to divide the House against it.
It would be most unfortunate for any hon. Member of this House to ask us to differentiate as between a trade union and a trade union. I frankly say that if that was the issue involved I certainly should have no objection. If men chose to join a particular union they must be recognised, because after all it is not the union that matters, but those who constitute the union. The hon. Member moved another Amendment on a previous occasion, and he said distinctly that he moved his Amendment because there had been some change in the original agreement. This would make another change in the original agreement, and that agreement was not only made by three unions, but it was made by three unions which constitute over 90 per cent. of the total staff. The mover of this Amendment said he understood that this particular association is helped and financed by the railway companies.
I said I had been so informed.
I think that is true, but do not let us mix that up with the trade union. It may be a perfectly laudable object for an employer or a railway company to encourage and foster some organisation, but do not let us call it a trade union, because it is nothing of the kind; in fact it is just the reverse. If this scheme was one for all kinds of assocations, then I agree at once that this proposal ought to come in, but it is an agreement between the trade unions and the railway companies. I think it has already been clearly indicated that this organisation does not claim to be a trade union.
I understand that they do claim to be a trade union.
I only want to state the facts. I say that they do not claim in their own organisation or in their own memorandum of agreement that they are a trade union. The main point is whether there is anything in this agreement which would prevent any employé on the railways having his grievance examined, and that is the real object. Apparently the Mover and Seconder of this Amendment do not know what is the procedure of this Board. This organisation or any other, or any employé, trader, manufacturer, or traveller are invited to state their case before this Board. Their evidence is admissible, and on the last occasion a number of traders and manufacturers exercised that right.
But they cannot take part in any discussion.
The railway companies are equally represented with the trade unions, and if it is good for the railway companies to encourage the growth of this organisation they can rely upon having the friends of the railway companies to look after them.
I never heard of any contribution by the Great Northern Railway Company to any association of station masters.
Let me congratulate the right hon. Baronet upon that fact. I know that he never encouraged it, and he may not have heard of this particular organisation. The body dealt with by this Amendment is connected with really one railway only, although there are a few of them belonging to another, but they are miles away from the right hon. Gentleman's company. This still further shows the difficulty of accepting an Amendment of this kind when the right hon. Baronet opposite indicates that he never heard of this organisation.
The Government have carefully considered this matter. This body really consists of an association of station-masters, principally those on the North Eastern line. They have some members upon two or three other lines, but I am advised that the association and its federation represent an extremely small percentage of the grades mentioned in the Amendment. Certainly they cannot claim to speak for these grades in any sense at all. Under these circumstances it is impossible to ask the House to make a material variation in the agreement which has been arrived at between the companies and the trade unions. In addition to that, I would point out that this Amendment would disturb the balance of the constitution of the National Wages Board, because it would be adding an extra member for certain purposes, and then the principal grievance which has already been pointed out would exist in reality, and not in imagination.
Amendment negatived.
I think the decisions of the House on the last two Amendments cover the following Amendments dealing with a departure from the agreement.
I have an Amendment to substitute the Lord Chancellor for the Minister of Labour, which I think is a totally separate point not in any way covered by the decisions which have been arrived at.
I do not say that point has been covered, but in the exercise of my duty as to selection I have taken the two leading points with regard to altering the agreement, and the House has decided both in the negative.
There are Amendments dealing with the Departments concerned with the agreement, and that point has not been dealt with.
That may be so, but the decision of the Committee guides me in exercising my duty with regard to the selection of Amendments.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph (b), to leave out the words "Associated Chamber," and insert instead thereof the words "Association of British Chambers."—[ Mr. Neal. ]
CLAUSE 65.—(Application of Part IV.)
The employés to whom this Part of this Act applies are those employed in the grades of employés included in the several national agreements referred to in the Seventh Schedule to this Act (other than employés who, in accordance with the classification for the time being in force, are in the special class), and such other grades of employés as the parties to such schemes as aforesaid may hereafter agree to include in the schemes, including the Railway Clearing House.
Amendments made: After the word "employed" insert the words
"on or about the railways hereinafter mentioned and by the Railway Clearing House."—[ Major Hills. ]
Leave out the words "including the Railway Clearing House," and insert instead thereof the words
"(2) The railways hereinbefore referred to are, until the amalgamation schemes come into operation, the railways of the railway companies mentioned in the second and third columns of the First Schedule to this Act of whose undertakings the Minister was in possession on the fourteenth day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-one, and any railways jointly owned or worked by two or more of such companies, and after those schemes come into operation the railways of the amalgamated companies and any railways jointly owned or worked by two or more of those companies."—[ Sir E. Geddes. ]
That covers the remainder of Clause 65.
CLAUSE 67.—(Amendment of procedure for making light railway Orders)
(1) (b) the Minister on considering an application for an Order shall take all such matters into consideration and do all such things as he, as successor of the Board of Trade, is under the principal Act required to take into consideration and do on submission of an Order to him for confirmation; and the principal Act shall have effect as if for references to the Light Railway Commissioners there were substituted references to the Minister, and for references to the confirmation of Orders by the Minister, as successor to the Board of Trade, there was substituted references to the making of Orders by the Minister:
Provided that any limitation on the duration of the powers of the Light Railway Commissioners contained in the principal Act or in any Act extending the duration of those powers shall not apply to the Minister.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1, b), to add the words
"But nevertheless, in the event of the confirmation of an Order being refused by the Minister on grounds other than non-compliance with the rules of procedure, he shall, if requested by the promoters and on payment by them of such additional fees as may be prescribed, send to the Lord Chairman and Chairman of Ways and Means a copy of a draft Order, together with a report stating the grounds on which the application was refused, and if the said Chairman shall consent that the proposals may be dealt with by Private Bill, the promoters shall be entitled to make applica- tion for a Bill; and the notices published and served, and the deposits made for the purpose of the application for the Order, shall, subject to the Standing Orders, be held to have been published, served, and made for the purpose of the Bill."
I raised this point in Committee upstairs, but withdrew it on the promise of the Minister that he would consider between then and the Report stage if any action could be taken in regard to it. There is now an Amendment on the Paper in the name of the Minister which proposes that the Minister alone shall retain complete discretion. I do not think that that quite meets the case. Still, I do not want to start a long discussion, and if I can get an undertaking that the Minister will again look into this between now and when the Bill reaches another place, I shall be satisfied.
I beg to second the Amendment.
My right hon. Friend has given the most careful consideration to this matter as he promised in Committee, and he is unable to accept this Amendment. In Clause 67 of the Bill an effort is made in the direction of economy, and instead of applications having to be made in the first instance to the Light Railway Commission and then to the Minister for confirmation of any Order they make, Clause 67 is designed to have the effect that the Minister may consider the matter in the first instance, and thus avoid duplication of inquiry. Of course, anyone who desires to deal with this matter has an alternative procedure and can come to this House with a Private Bill. My hon. and learned Friend suggests that they should go in the first instance to the Minister, and then if they feel they can short-circuit the ordinary Bill procedure, dispensing with notices, and, possibly, putting opponents to a great deal of trouble and expense, come to the House and say, "It is true we could have come in the first instance to the House, but we thought we would have two shots instead of one." I hope, under the circumstances, the Amendment will not be pressed.
I do not propose to put the House to the trouble of dividing, and ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, after Sub-section (1), to insert a new Sub-section—
(2) If the Minister is of opinion for any of the reasons mentioned in Sub-section (3) of Section nine of the principal Act that the proposals of the promoters ought to be submitted to Parliament he may, if he thinks fit, make an Order as a Provisional Order and submit the proposals to Parliament by bringing in a Bill for the confirmation of the Order, and Sub-sections (2) and (3) of Section one of The Light Railways Act, 1912, shall apply with respect to such Bill.
These words are really consequential. By Clause 67, under the Bill as it stands, if the Minister of Transport on application for confirmation of an order by a light railway, comes to the conclusion that it ought to be referred to Parliament, he may submit it in the form of a Provisional Order for confirmation by the House. The object of this Amendment is to adapt the Clause to that alternative procedure.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 71.—(Powers of charging by light railway companies.)
(2) On and after the appointed day any light railway company whose railway connects (whether by means of a junction or of adjacent sidings) with the railway of an amalgamated company, or of a railway company to which a schedule of standard charges has been applied, shall be entitled to make charges not exceeding those which such company is authorised to make, with this qualification that for the purpose of the calculation of mileage rates each mile of a light railway shall be treated as if it were one mile and a quarter.
(4) Part III of this Act except so far as it relates to the granting, variation, cancellation, and apportionment of through rates, fares and charges, and the conditions of carriage of merchandise, shall not apply to light railways.
I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to leave out the word "is" ["such company is authorised"], and to insert instead thereof the words "may be from time to time."
Clause 71 provides, in Sub-section (2), for the light railways to have the same standard of charges as the main railways with which they are connected. If the word "is," which I propose to omit, should be retained it would mean, I think, that they would only have the power to make charges now authorised by this Bill. It is within the knowledge of the House that there are provisions in the Bill for the raising and lowering of charges, and I want those provisions to be made applicable in this case.
I beg to second the Amendment.
If the hon. Member is willing to accept the words "for the time being," instead of those he proposes to insert, it will meet my right hon. Friend's point of view and the draftsman's point of view as well.
Certainly.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (2), after the word "is" ["such company is authorised"], insert the words "for the time being."—[ Mr. M. Stevens. ]
I beg to move, in Subsection (4), to leave out the words
"except so far as it relates to the granting, variation, cancellation, and apportionment of through rates, fares, and charges, and the conditions of carriage of merchandise."
These words should be read in connection with the next Amendment on the Paper in the name of the Minister and of the hon. Member for the Moseley Division of Birmingham (Mr. Hannon). The object of these two Amendments is to bring into effect the light railway's powers which have been given in Clause 26 of the Bill.
I take it we shall have some further explanation of the consequential Amendment.
Certainly.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (4) to insert the words
"except so far as it relates—
I gladly respond to the request of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) for an explanation of this proposal. This matter is one raised on behalf of trading interests. Under Clause 26 it is provided that certain matters shall come before the Rates Tribunal, but it does not apply to light railways. It was pointed out by my right hon. Friend that as the result we might have two separate courts to adjudicate on precisely similar matters, one referring to light railways and the other to the ordinary railways, and the result might be some conflict and some confusion. We are therefore accepting this proposal which was put forward by the hon. Member for the Moseley Division (Mr. Hannon).
This is really only a drafting Amendment, except that it adds Clause 26 and Clause 53 to this Clause.
That is quite right.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move after the words last inserted to add the words
"Provided that where a light railway becomes part of the system of an amalgamated company, Part III of this Act shall apply thereto."
Part III of the Bill is the part which deals with rates and charges, and the object of the proviso I am now moving is to make it clear that where a light railway becomes part of an amalgamated railway, it will therefore be dealt with under the arrangements in operation affecting such railway. Otherwise you may have Part III applied to nearly the whole system, but not applicable to a small piece which happens to have attached to it the name of a light railway.
I should like to ask how it can be shown that a light railway changes its constitution because it becomes part of an amalgamated railway. Part III is, of course, the main part of the Bill. It deals with charges. The light railway has the same powers in every respect with regard to Part III as the main line of railways, and I cannot for a moment see why its powers should be changed simply because of a change of ownership. What would it mean to some light railways? There are light railways which are connected with the Cheshire Lines, and if one of them were purchased by the Cheshire Lines Committee it would be at a disadvantage entirely as compared with a light railway purchased by an amalgamated company, because it would not have the advantage of Part III. I hope the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill will see that the constitution of the light railways is maintained absolutely, and that no difference is made as between one line of light railways and another.
5.0 P.M.
This Amendment really will not produce the effect which my hon. Friend fears. If a light railway becomes absorbed in an amalgamated railway, it must follow the whole of the incidence which attach to the amalgamation. It loses its character altogether. It ceases to be a separate legal entity and becomes part of the greater system. It could not be possible to run a light railway under conditions different from those which apply to the line with which it is affiliated. In the case of the line mentioned by my hon. Friend and its possible purchase by the Cheshire Lines Committee, such a transaction would have to be dealt with by a Bill in this House, and if powers were asked for its inclusion Parliament would be in a position to do what was right in respect of that particular line.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to insert a new Sub-section:
"(5) As from the appointed day the powers of the Railway and Canal Commission under Section fourteen of The Regulation of Railways Act, 1873, as extended by any other enactment and as applied to light railways, shall be exereiseable by the Rates Tribunal instead of by the Railway and Canal Commission."
This is really consequential upon the Amendment which I moved a few minutes ago, giving to the Rates Tribunal the power of dealing with these railways under Clause 26. In view of that, it is necessary to exclude them from the purview of the Commission.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 72.—(Amendment of Sections 11 and 24 of principal Act.)
(1) An Order made under the principal Act may contain a provision empowering a railway company to acquire the light railway to which the Order relates, and paragraph (I) of Section eleven of the principal Act shall have effect accordingly as if in that paragraph after the words "local authority" there were inserted the words "or railway company."
(2) An amending Order made under Section twenty-four of the principal Act may confer on a railway company power to acquire the light railway to which the Order relates notwithstanding that the owners of the light railway do not consent, and proviso (c) to that Section shall have effect accordingly as if in that paragraph after the word "power" there were inserted the words "on any person other than a railway company."
I beg to move to leave out the Clause.
This Clause makes Amendments in Sections 11 and 24 of the Light Railways Act, 1896, and its purpose is to enable the amalgamated companies to purchase light railways compulsorily. I am glad to observe, and thankfully acknowledge, that my right hon. Friend the Minister seems to recognise that there is here a case to be met, and he has met it in part, but it is not met adequately by the Amendment which stands in his name later on the Paper, for, whilst the case of existing light railways would be covered by his Amendment, it does not provide for the future. In fact, it appears to me that its effect will be to destroy altogether the possibility of the establishment or development of light railways in the future. It must also be observed that the Command Papers which were issued before the introduction of the Bill did not indicate that it was contemplated that light railways should be dealt with, and therefore those who were concerned with light railways have not had an adequate opportunity of making arrangements to present their case, or, at any rate, have not had as full opportunities as other railway undertakings. Moreover, the Clause makes a considerable departure in law and practice. Hitherto, the only bodies that have had the right compulsorily to acquire light railways have been local authorities, because light railways partake very largely of the quality of tramways, and have to use roads under the control of local authorities. While it might have been very desirable for a local authority to have and to exercise these powers, I see some danger in conferring upon the amalgamated companies the power to take over light railways compulsorily. Who will start a light railway in the future, if they know that, as soon as they have created the railway or have brought it on to a profitable basis, the larger railways will be able to step in and acquire it? The light railway will necessarily be placed at a disadvantage in competing with these larger undertakings. The Minister, by his Amendment, has admitted that a case has to be met, and I frankly acknowledge that he has met it in a measure; and, that being so, it is not necessary for me to argue the matter at length at this stage. My submission, however, is that, while my right hon. Friend has met the case as regards existing light railways, the action here contemplated will have the effect of destroying enterprise in connection with light railways in the future. That it is necessary rather to cultivate and afford every facility for the creation of these light railways is, I think, known to everyone. I am mainly influenced, in my attitude on this matter, by the necessity for an increase in transit facilities in our agricultural and outlying districts. I have sought to ascertain how the case could be met by an extension of the Minister's Amendment, but have come to the conclusion that the only way in which to cover it adequately is by leaving out the Clause.
My right hon. Friend, in moving the deletion of this Clause, has suggested that the attention of light railways was not sufficiently directed to this matter by the Government before the introduction of the Bill. I do not propose to read the paragraph in the White Paper which deals with it, but it is dealt with, and certainly substantially dealt with, on pages 4 and 5 of Command Paper 787.
So far as I am able to remember that part of the White Paper which deals with this matter—I have not a copy of it here—it did not foreshadow that the amalgamated companies were to have the power of acquiring light railways by compulsion.
I think it puts it rather worse against the light railways than that, and I will not pursue the subject. We are called upon to justify the presence in the Bill of Clause 72. This Clause is really put into the Bill in the interests of light railway undertakings. Anyone who has studied the history of light railways, or, indeed, of any small railway company, will know what the condition of things in regard to them has been. Such a company has come into a district which some larger company has looked upon as being its own. It has come in as an interloper, and the larger company has looked with a very anxious eye upon the efforts made by that small company to interfere with its traffic and thereby to some extent to diminish its monopoly. The history of light railways in the past has been that they have been gradually starved almost out of existence by the larger companies, until the time has come when the larger company has been approached by the holders of investments in the smaller company, with the request that it would take them over, and it has been able to acquire them at its own price. It is to prevent that state of things that Clause 72 is put into the Bill, and to secure that the railway companies, and particularly these large amalgamated companies, shall no longer have an interest in preventing or hindering the development of a new railway that comes into existence, but that, if the new railway does become a substantial feeder of its railway system, it may acquire it on fair and reasonable terms, which, I think, in every case are named in the Order under which the power to acquire it is given This Clause, as a result of my right hon. Friend the Minister's very great railway experience, is put in directly and wholly in the interest of the development of districts by light railways without their being objects of jealousy on the part of the larger companies.
We have endeavoured to meet the two points named by my right hon. Friend (Mr. G. Roberts) in moving the deletion of the Clause. Firstly, he said that many of these railways are, in fact, mere tramways, and with regard to that there are on the Paper Amendments in the name of the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson), which, subject to a little variation in wording, we propose to accept. My right hon. Friend's second point was that it would not be right to apply these powers of purchase to existing light railway undertakings, and We agree. What is proposed now, by an Amendment which the Government support, is that, where a light railway comes into existence for the first time after the passing of this Act, there may be applied to it at a later stage an amending Order authorising an existing railway to pur- chase it. If it comes into existence in the future, it does so knowing that it is liable to be purchased by one of two authorities—either by a local authority or by one of the amalgamated companies. We think that that may even be an encouragement to it. A light railway promoter may say, "This will be so valuable that the larger railway company will by-and-by be very glad to acquire it on fair and reasonable terms." That ought not to be a discouragement, because the undertaking can never be taken away except upon the payment of a full and adequate price. We accept those two suggestions, namely, that anything of the nature of a street tramway shall be excluded, and that it shall be made quite clear that it must apply to amending Orders in respect of companies which come into existence after the present time.
I cannot congratulate the hon. Gentleman upon his explanation of the history of light railways. He has only got half the facts. There are 21 light railways which are not being taken over by the main line railways. Per ton per mile their tonnage is greater than that of the whole of the railways of the country. One of them has carried over its lines more than 1 per cent. of the total merchandise of England. Its length is only some six or seven miles, but it has created more general merchandise traffic in the last few years than any other railway company in the country, and that notwithstanding the opposition of all the main line railway companies. There is no obligation, under the powers of that light railway, for it to be sold to the local authority. It is a traders' railway as distinguished from a railway company's railway. It has 100 sidings and all the powers of a big railway company, and nothing is charged to the owner of a siding for the connection with the main line. That is the sort of thing that is being protected by the Bill, because it is in existence. But we are being asked now to provide against any such facility in the future, and there are a number of districts in this country in which it has been intended to create such facilities, notwithstanding what the main line railway companies have wanted to do. Upstairs Part V of the Bill did not take five minutes, so that there is some excuse for a little time being given to this question here. The reason for that was that Part III was being discussed in another room, and those who had the interests of light railways at heart had to be in the other room discussing Part III. I very strongly support the right hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. G. Roberts) in seeking to leave out the Clause altogether unless the Minister can see his way to give facilities and to provide that these light railways shall be asked for and obtained without the monopoly provision that they had to be taken over by this, that, or the other company, which would necessarily preclude private enterprise coming in to obtain the necessary capital, because if they are failures they will not be taken over, but if they are good business they will.
I recognise gratefully that the hon. Gentleman has endeavoured, in the Amendment of which he has given notice, to give effect to that which stands in my name, and I think that covers the case entirely so far as existing railways are concerned. But I feel that a very serious problem arises with regard to future railways. Who is going to invest money in the construction of a light railway if he knows that at the end of six or twelve months it may be absorbed by a main line company? No one will do anything so foolish as that. The hon. Gentleman said of course it would be taken over, and a price would be paid which would be full and adequate to the promoters of the light railway. But what security have we in the Bill that the price will be good enough? None at all. I am afraid the net result will be that you will throttle light railway developments altogether, because capital will not be forthcoming under these conditions. No one knows better than the Minister the extent to which light railways have developed all over the Continent, and their vast importance is recognised all over Europe. The only country in which it has not been fully recognised is, I think, this country, and here we run the risk, if we pass the Clause in its present form, of killing off all possible development of light railways. It is a very serious question, and it deserves further consideration at the Minister's hands. I recognise his undoubted authority and experience in these matters, and I am sure he appreciates the full importance of the subject, and I ask him very seriously to consider whether the effect will not be to destroy the development of light railways altogether. If so, the matter certainly calls for further consideration.
I am the last person who would wish to do anything to retard the development of these railways. I think we are likely to get into difficulties by the use of the word "light." When the ordinary individual thinks of a light railway he goes to the Continent, where usually the fields are covered with a network of light railways. That is the light railway as we all see it, and as many of us would like to see it in this country. Then the hon. Member for Eccles (Mr. Stevens) told us of the railways on the Trafford Park Estate, which are not light railways going through these smiling fields. They are a very heavy group of industrial sidings. That he calls a light railway. I should he the first to deny that the traffic on these lines is extremely heavy. I might also say it is extraordinarily well worked, and performs a great service for those works which are situated upon it, and I could go on saying nice things about the Trafford Park Estate, but that is not the kind of light railway which the right hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. G. Roberts) has in mind. He is thinking, as I and nine people out of ten are thinking, of light railways that run through the country and develop backward traffic. I have spent more years than even I care to contemplate with railways, and I know that with the exception of a few years when I was on a light railway myself we have done our best to prevent these thorns cutting deeper into our flesh. A light railway is always a thorn in the flesh of a big company. You strangle a light railway because you believe it is going to cut into you, to grow, to get stronger, and eventually it will really hurt you. I want to stop that. If, therefore, the large company knows that a light railway is going gradually to become useful, and then it can acquire it upon fair terms, it will help it. It will not strangle it. It will say, "This will become a useful part of the system." The terms will be laid down in the original Order, so that the promoters will know when they get their Order the terms on which it will be transferred.
No one can say that our light railways of the type we are considering have been satisfactory. They have been very bad. This provision will give a fair recompense to the promoters and will enable a big company to look upon a light railway as a potential friend rather than a potential enemy. Now that we are adopting the principle of large territories without competition we do not want to start another system of the type of what we have got, with competition and fighting in these areas. If you start light railway development you will do that, and you will be absolutely negativing the theory of your Bill. The hon. Member for Eccles naturally thinks that now that he has a little more leisure he is going to start another Trafford Park estate. He can develop that just as well by the second string which the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. MacVeagh) wished to get on a previous Amendment and coming to Parliament for powers to make these railways. The hon. Member proposes to have a first shot at the Minister, and, failing that, to have a second go by coming to Parliament without having to go through the more elaborate procedure. The Parliamentary course will be open to the hon. Member for Eccles when he wishes to make another Trafford Park estate. But what we are really after is light railways to develop the country, and I am convinced that you can best do that by making it clear from the outset that, in these big railway territories we are setting up, the light railway will come in as a friend, as a possible future partner, as one which cannot be an enemy, and therefore the big railways will help it. It is only with the help of the big lines, the co-operative use of their shops to get locomotives repaired, by being able to hire a locomotive when one is out of commission, by being able to get rolling stock cheap, by being able to get a cheap exchange system, and not being mulcted to the uttermost farthing, that you can hope to develop light railways. Another thing is that our light railway Regulations are far too stringent, and when this Bill is out of the way I hope it will be possible, with the available material, data and experience, to make the running of light railways easier and cheaper. We cannot do that in this Bill. I am entirely in sympathy with the light railway, as we understand it—not with the Trafford Park estate—and this is a first step which will really give them a chance, and that is why I put it in and ask the House to pass it.
Would it be possible under this Clause for the Minister to issue an order that a light railway, which has been constructed at a cost of £300,000, can be taken over by a larger company at a price of £150,000 or even £100,000?
It is possible, of course, but you are assuming a crazy Minister.
That sometimes happens.
The right hon. Gentleman has submitted a most extraordinary argument in support of this Clause. If my reading of his argument is correct he is telling us that there is only one authority in the country which will have any interest in railways, namely, the large railway company. He has also told us that the light railways in the future are to be real light railways, such as we find on the Continent. He then goes on to say that the reason why he wants these light railways taken over by the large railways is that they shall be able to interchange locomotive facilities. How absurd to expect main line locomotives to run over one of these light Continental railways? It seems to me that you are going to kill light railway promotion. No one will promote a light railway if he thinks he will simply be allowed to build it and operate it so long as it is of no interest to the main line company, and as soon as it really becomes efficient and a good money earner it is to be taken over without any right of refusal whatever. I listened very carefully to the right hon. Gentleman, but I think he has utterly failed to make out any case for the Clause.
I wish to say a word from the point of view of the people in the districts which are anxious to get development. I do not at all agree that the effect of the Clause will be to kill the light railway movement. I believe it will be exactly the contrary. I have had to do with a number of promotions of light railways, and it is because of the antagonism of the big railway companies that in some cases it has been impossible to raise the capital required. Recently I have been associated with the promotion of a light railway for which powers have just been given, and we regarded it as so important that we were not prepared to promote the railway unless we could arrange with the big railway company concerned that they would take power in order that they could take over the rail, way. The result is that we have, in the promotion of that railway, complete association with the big company. It is life and death to us, and I entirely agree with the Minister that the Clause will not only not kill light railways, but will do an immense amount to promote the light railway movement.
This largely resolves itself into a matter of opinion. We are all anxious to promote rather than to retard the developments of light railways. The Minister thinks that the Clause will encourage enterprise rather than otherwise. I regard it as having been a very good thing that light railways should have been a thorn in the flesh of some of the main railways, otherwise the out districts would never have been developed as they were, and never would have had the facilities that they enjoy to-day. Of course, I always bow to the experience and knowledge of my right hon. Friend, but I am apprehensive that this is going to have the effect of stultifying enterprise in the future. Here, again, very much depends upon the conditions which are laid down in the original Order alluded to by my right hon. Friend. If he would undertake to give special care there to secure that the Order shall be framed in such a way as shall ensure the full and fair price to which the Parliamentary Secretary referred, it would go a good way to remove any apprehensions which exists in the minds of those people who are not only interested in the promotion of light railways, but also in the development in their respective districts. With that undertaking, and the knowledge that one would have no chance of carrying an Amendment against my right hon. Friend, I do not think it necessary to trouble the House any further with the Amendment, and I beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "relates" ["the Order relates"], to insert the words "not being a railway of the nature of a tramway."
With your permission, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I am altering the Amendment from the words on the Paper, namely, "not being a railway used as a tramway," to the words which I have proposed. This Amendment, and the consequential Amendments which follow, are on the Paper because certain municipal authorities feel some concern as to whether this Clause would enable the railway companies to take over tramways which, in one sense of the term, are light railways, although they are merely used for road passengers. I understand the Parliamentary Secretary is willing to accept the Amendment.
I beg to second the Amendment. I would appeal to the Minister to insert a definition Clause, defining what is a "light railway" and what is a "tramway."
For the purpose of this Clause, my right hon. Friend has put down an Amendment to the Clause, which defines a light railway of the nature of a tramway as meaning
"a light railway laid wholly or mainly along a public carriage way, and used wholly or mainly for the carriage of passengers."
The point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Eccles (Mr. Stevens) is very material, but it is not one which we could deal with as a whole in the present Bill.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), leave out the words "local authority," and insert instead thereof the word "railway."
Leave out the words "or railway company," and insert instead thereof the words "or except in the case of a railway of the nature of a tramway empowering a railway company to acquire the railway."—[ Mr. T. Thomson. ]
Leave out Sub-section (2) and insert instead thereof new Sub-sections
"(2) Where, after the passing of this Act, an Order is made under the principal Act authorising a light railway (other than a light railway of the nature of a tramway), an Order amending that Order may confer on a railway company power to acquire the light railway, notwithstanding that the owners of the light railway do not consent, and Section twenty-four of the principal Act shall have effect accordingly.
(3) for the purposes of this Section a light railway of the nature of a tramway means a light railway laid wholly or mainly along a public carriage way, and used wholly or mainly for the carriage of passengers."—[ Mr. Need. ]
CLAUSE 74.—(Facilities.)
(3) In the case of a route competitive with its own by which traffic passes the through rates or fares charged by any amalgamated company shall not, unless the Rates Tribunal for good cause shown so order, be higher than those charged by its own route.
I beg to move, at the beginning of Sub-section (3) to insert the words
"Subject to the provisions of this Act with respect to circuitous routes."
This is the Clause which secures that facilities which have existed previously between companies shall be maintained when the alterations have been effected which are undertaken by the Bill in the shape of amalgamation. It is possible that Sub-section (3) might be in conflict with the concessions which the Government has made on Clause 51 in respect of circuitous routes, and it is in order to provide that Clause 51 shall be given full weight and shall not be derogated from by this Sub-section, that I move this Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 75.—(Allocation of receipts on worked railways.)
Where under any Act or agreement passed or made before the passing of this Act any railway is maintained and worked on terms based upon the receipts from the traffic on such railway, the amount which shall be payable to the owning company out of such receipts shall be such as would have been payable to them if the rates, fares, tolls, dues, and charges in respect of such traffic had been the same as those in operation during the year nineteen hundred and thirteen, but not less than the actual receipts in that year, and the balance of such receipts shall be retained by the company maintaining and working the said railway.
I beg to move to leave out the Clause.
Once again I raise the question of the worked companies. I have a very vivid recollection of the severity of the reply given by my right hon. Friend on the previous occasion, but there are one or two further considerations to which I am entitled to direct his attention. The hon. Member for Eccles (Mr. Stevens), in speaking on a previous Amendment, pointed out that this part of the Bill did not receive very close attention in Committee. Therefore, I shall not be committing any Parliamentary fault if I occupy a little time on the Report, if I bring forward one or two circumstances. The Clause relates to the revenue of about 30 railway companies for the period between the end of the Government control on the 15th August of this year and the date of amalgamation, 30th June, 1923. These railways have done a good deal towards the development of railway facilities, and the agreement usually provided that the owning company should construct the lines, provide the buildings, permanent way and signalling, and the other parts of the railway usually provided out of capital, and that the working company should provide the railway stock, the working staff and maintain the undertaking; the gross receipts being divided according to the terms of the agreement. The argument of the working companies is, that the gross receipts are about to be increased by the raising of rates and fares under the authority of this Bill in order to meet increased working expenses, and that the owning company has no additional expense to meet, and will, therefore, receive a greatly increased profit. I am not going to argue against that statement, but I submit that there are circumstances in connection with the various enterprises which do require special consideration. I do not feel that they can be properly considered and dealt with on a mere rough and ready basis.
The main objection of the owning companies, on whose behalf I speak here, though I have not a single railway share, is that the Government should break agreements. Parliament has a perfect right to do it, and it is being done; but I am not going to stress that argument. I would point out that the circumstances and the case of each of these individual companies ought to be taken into consideration separately. There is no doubt that the worked companies have been very largely at the mercy of the working companies. They have never been able to control the fixing of the rates and fares, and I am advised that they have never sought to do it. Therefore, the control and management of the undertakings have been mainly in the hands of the working companies. In some cases, in connection with the worked companies, even debenture interest has not been paid, preference shares have only received a dividend, and other shares have only received 1 or 2 per cent dividend. Therefore, I am not speaking on behalf of wealthy corporations. I want to direct attention to the circumstances of a few of these particular enterprises. Take the North Lindsay Light Railway. This company has had to pay an increase in the rate of interest on its capital. It had raised certain terminable debentures at 3½ and 4 per cent., which became due for redemption during the War, and the money required to redeem them has cost 6 and 7 per cent. That is a consideration which ought to be taken into account. It is the main point which I want to make apart from that which I argued on a previous occasion.
I might give another instance of the increase of charges on the revenue of the owning company in the form of rates and taxes. I am informed that this applies especially to certain Scottish companies under whose agreement the owning company is liable for rates and taxes. If the owning company is not to have a chance of showing that its expenditure has increased in accordance with the existing agreement, the amount of its dividend in many cases will be reduced. That is the case of the Mansfield Railway Company, with which, I understand, other hon. Members are proposing to deal. This line was only partially in operation in 1913. Capital charges for construction for the additional portion of the line which was opened during the War have yet to be met. Consequently the guarantee of the 1913 receipts would give no protection in the case of this company. The conditions relating to these companies are so dissimilar that they cannot properly be dealt with in the one manner. Therefore the circumstances of each of the companies ought to be taken into consideration, and they ought to go to arbitration without any particular direction other than that the arbitrator or arbitrators should be required to have regard to the circumstances of all these cases.
Clause 75 relates to what are known as worked companies. The companies owning the lines hand them over to certain companies to work, and they pay all the expenses, and then pay to the owning company 40 per cent., 50 per cent., or 60 per cent. of the gross receipts of the worked line. The effect of the increased charging powers given to the working companies is this: The rates are doubled; therefore the gross receipts are very much increased. Unless this Clause were inserted the owning company would get enormously increased returns, whereas on the working company would fall all the cost of the extra wages, material, and coal. So you would have this result, that a bargain which was intended to operate under one schedule of charging powers would operate quite differently on the extended charging powers. The real way to look at these owning companies is as though they were leased companies. The owning company leases the line, and the eompany that works it pays a certain rental. For all the increased charges that have taken place not a single penny will fall on the owning company. They do not pay the extra cost of rails, wages, material, or construction of all sorts. It is not fair that increased charges which have been established owing to increased prices should operate for payment of a company on which those increased prices do not fall. After all, the working company gets no more out of it than it did before. It is they who have to pay for these extra charges. Therefore, the net receipts of the working company are very much where they were before.
The only case which my right hon. Friend made which raises in my mind even a shadow of a claim is this. He says that certain of the owning companies have had loans which were repayable, and are now being repaid. The effect of that is, that whereas before they paid 4 per cent. or 4½ per cent. on the debentures, they now have to raise the money at 6 per cent. or 7 per cent. Therefore to that extent ordinary shareholders in that owning company are in a worse position, but Clause 75 gives them a very valuable concession against that possible loss. The lowest amount that is guaranteed to the owning companies is the actual receipts of the year 1913. Whether trade is good or bad, whether there is a rise in the price of coal or there are strikes, in fair weather or in foul, the owning com- panies will obtain the 1913 receipts. I submit that on the whole that is a very fair bargain. One or two of the owning companies may possibly lose owing to an increase of interest on borrowed money, yet they escape all the cost which falls on the working company, who have to pay so much more for material, wages, and so on, so that they get nothing out of the new arrangement. I hope sincerely the Government will not accept this Amendment.
Probably real justice lies between what my right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich (Mr. G. Roberts) proposes and what my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Durham (Major Hills) wishes to refuse. If the Amendment were accepted the effect would be to enable the owning companies to get from the working companies the same percentage of the gross receipts as in 1913. That would not be a justifiable proposition. I believe that the Minister of Transport took up that position in Committee. On the other hand, I think that to refuse the owning companies the chance of showing that they have suffered an increase in expenditure, and if they have, to refuse them a chance of getting it would be equally unfair. My right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich in his speech did put forward some cases, one of which my hon. and gallant Friend himself admitted, in which these owning companies have been put to increased expenditure. Therefore, on the 1913 receipts, they would be in a worse position than they were up to 1913.
The hon. and gallant Member for Durham introduced a very useful analogy when he spoke of this property as being on lease. We have been dealing with property in this House under various Acts in which we put restrictions on rents, and we have been giving relief in cases where rates and casts of repairs have increased, and we have been allowing owners of property to pass them on to tenants. There is some analogy to that in the present position of owning companies and working companies. There are undoubtedly cases where the owning companies have been put to extra charges, and it does seem to me that it would be fair to recoup them to that extent. I do ask the Minister of Transport whether he would consider accepting an Amendment to an Amendment which he proposes to move later on. The right hon. Gentleman proposes to leave out the words "actual receipts" and insert the words "amount actually paid." I would like him to consider whether he would accept after the word "paid" the words "after allowing for any unavoidable increase in the expenditure of the owning company" so as to enable a company which is in the position mentioned by my right hon. Friend, which had an increase in the rate of interest, or as in the case of some of the Scottish companies where there was an increase in rates and taxes, when it could prove these increases to get these amounts allowed to them. I believe that that would be a fair course. What my right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich asked is too big a thing, but if the right hon. Gentleman would accept the Amendment which I suggest I think that it would not only remedy the injustice which has been pointed out, but it would avoid any real injustice to the working companies.
The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has lost sight of the great advantage which is given to the owning companies by the certainty that they will get not less than the actual receipts of 1913, and that there is a guarantee to these owning companies of their dividend of 1913 for l½ years. We have been told often by the hon. Gentleman that the shareholders of ordinary railway companies are put in a good position because they have had their dividend of 1913 guaranteed, but that is not so.
My whole point is that in the case of all those companies which would receive the actual returns for 1913, and where there was an actual increased expenditure, I would give nothing but I am pleading for cases where the amount received will be reduced by an actual increase in expenditure. There is no difference between us.
There is this difference. Say that a company had borrowed £100,000 on mortgage at 4 per cent., which became payable last year, and the money now has to be raised at 6 per cent. or 7 per cent. Therefore they have to pay a larger amount for expenditure before they can divide among the ordinary shareholders. That is true, but look at the position. These shareholders would get the dividend for 1913, less this proportional expense, guaranteed in all circumstances. It is certain that they will get this dividend. A large number of hon. Members opposite have said over and over again that railway shareholders are being too well treated, or at any rate that they ought to jump with joy because they have got their 1913 dividends guaranteed. They have not; they never had. But these particular people have. In these circumstances surely one would have thought they would have been only too glad to take it. They must take the rough with the smooth. Suppose the traffic goes down?
Up goes the rates.
6.0 P.M.
It does not matter what the rates are. First of all, you must get the traffic. If the traffic goes down to any serious extent, the rates do not matter so much. I would draw attention to the fact that for once I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Durham.
That is why I am doubtful about supporting the hon. and gallant Member.
Now that my hon. and gallant Friend and I are together, I should think it was a strong argument to induce the right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) to support us. The right hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment suggests that these people should have something else given to them. I think it is because the situation has not been understood. The raising of the rates was never meant to put money into anyone's pocket. It was meant to compensate the railway companies for the increased expenditure to which they have been put by the action of various Government Departments during the last seven years. I do not think anyone can claim that because rates are to be raised they should take the benefit of that at the expense of those people for whose benefit the rates were raised, namely, in order that they might be able to pay the increased charges put upon them by the Government. I hope the Government will resist the Amendment.
I wish to refer to the case of the Mansfield Railway Company. I would have preferred someone connected with the constituency to have raised the point. It appears to me that the condition of the Mansfield Railway is peculiar. In 1913 it was earning no revenue. Therefore, to suggest that the Mansfield Railway Company should e put on the 1913 basis is rather absurd. It shows that in the Clause there is a loophole which may act to the serious detriment of this company. I would welcome an assurance from the Minister of Transport that the Mansfield Company will not be unfairly treated when the whole case comes up for the adjudication by the tribunal.
The argument which I advanced against the valuation of these worked lines, when we were dealing with Clause 6, on the basis of their present charging powers, appears to me to apply with equal force to the case put forward by my right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich (Mr. G. Roberts). In that case we met the difficulty, to some extent, by saying, in effect, that whatever the rights of these lines may be in so far as charging powers are concerned, we recognise those rights and we do not recognise that they have any justification in their claim for asking for higher charging powers given for quite another purpose. I hope the House will not accept the Amendment. It is put forward with the object of giving these smaller worked lines, for a period of a year and a half or two years, a purely fictitious benefit which they seek owing to the fact that costs, which they do not incur but which someone else incurs, have gone up.
Is it true to say that none of these companies incurs those additional charges? I am not familiar with all the agreements, but my recollection is that some at least of the old companies have to keep up stations and terminals. That is as I am advised. I have not to-day stressed the point I made in a previous Debate. My point to-day is that there are circumstances so dissimilar in connection with each of these companies that each ought to be considered on its merits.
There may be individual instances, but they would be very few in number and small in importance. In any case, to omit this Clause would put these companies in the position of having a fortuitous advantage for which they have little, if any, justification. The suggestion made by the hon. and gallant Member for East Newcastle (Major Barnes) is not one which, upon consideration, he would wish to press. The hon. and gallant Member's desire was to be helpful. His suggestion in the first place would cause someone to make an allowance in monthly settlements for increase of costs, not of operation, but of finance, which another undertaking has incurred. It is a procedure I would deprecate. If it is the intention that because they have had to raise money at a higher cost, therefore out of the pocket of someone else they should receive compensation for that, it is a bad precedent and not equitable.
As I understand the hon. and gallant Member's suggestion, it is to give an allowance for any unavoidable increase in the expenditure of the owning company. Does the hon. and gallant Member not agree that there are great difficulties in that? You have to set up someone to say whether the expenditure was avoidable or unavoidable. There would be endless disputes. You might have to increase the salary of the Secretary. That might be unavoidable expenditure, but it might necessitate reference to the Law Courts. We might adopt here a principle which we adopted on Clause 6 in reference to these worked lines. We said there in effect, "Here is a line which is being worked by a big company. The big company has levied such charges as it thought fit over that small railway. Then those charges became inadequate, and we added something more to the charges. Those charges in effect became new powers." I deny any right to the worked company to share in that fortuitous increase. But supposing that had not been given. Supposing Parliament had said to the whole of the railways of the country, "Well, you have your powers. Go ahead; promote your Bills and try to get additional charges." What would have happened? Forcing the procedure as much as they could, all the companies would have tried to go up to their maximum. We are denying these small worked companies any percentage on the maximum.
How about the Act of 1894?
There might have been difficulty again, I agree. That difficulty would apply all round. My suggestion now is that the next Amendment on the Paper, in the name of the hon. Member for Newbury (Sir W. Mount), is not inequitable. It suggests that we should leave out the words "in operation," and insert instead thereof the word "authorised," which means up to their maximum. I was in doubt whether, in working, that would be a very practicable suggestion, but I am informed by my advisers that the worked companies could quite easily undertake that calculation. That would have this effect: Over a period of one and a half or two years the working company, the large company, would be doing two things. It would be giving to the worked company its 1913 guaranteed receipts, and at the same time it would be giving those charges based on a higher level, namely, the level of the maximum and not the level of the actual charge. I do not think that that would be a very big thing. What I suggest now is that the Mover of this Amendment should have a decision taken on it or withdraw it, and that then the Amendment to which I have referred should be debated.
I am satisfied with having made my point, and, having regard to the way in which the right hon. Gentleman has met me, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment proposed: Leave out the words "in operation," and insert instead thereof the word "authorised."—[ Sir E. Geddes. ]
I regard this Amendment as one of a far-reaching character. The Government have adopted it and moved it, although it is on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Newbury (Sir W. Mount). The effect of it is that these companies worked by the larger companies should receive for the year-and-a-half before they are amalgamated the 1913 figures calculated as though the rates for those traffics had been the maximum rates. I submit this is giving the owning companies a great deal more than they are entitled to. Under the Act of 1894 the owning company was allowed to bring its rate up to the maxima without the risk of being brought before the Railways and Canal Commission and being compelled to prove that the increase was reasonable. Now it may be possible to introduce a wholly fictitious standard which could not have prevailed in 1913. I think we can assume it would have been extremely difficult in 1913 to raise the rates on goods which were carried over these companies' lines to the maxima allowed under the Act of 1894. Why should the owning companies receive more? The company that works the line works it as part of its own undertaking. Supposing that company chose to carry the public and the public's goods at less than the maximum charges which the Act of 1894 provided, you are now penalising those companies who in the past carried goods cheaply. You are saying to them, "You have to pay to these owning companies more than you received in the past." If the rates had been up to the maxima in 1913 these working companies would have benefited, but now in cases where they have been below you exclude the working company from benefit altogether. You are saying that, just because they carried goods at less than the maxima, they are then to be penalised, and all is to go to the owning companies.
I want to be fair to all parties. These lines we are talking of were built by land owners or groups of business men or speculators, who found that they could not work them and then made these bargains with the working companies. It is going a great deal too far to say that the working company which had all the responsibility must be compelled to pay this to the owning company. Further, I think the Minister has forgotten, for the moment, that the 1913 receipts are guaranteed. It is by no means certain that trade will be good in a year and a half, and possibly it may be very bad, but good or bad, it is the companies who stand no risk at all, who do no railway working at all, who are merely shareholders and who stand outside all variations of price in trade and commerce who are to receive larger sums than they received in 1913, and for no reason at all that I can see. They have none of the risk at all and the few cases mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich (Mr. G. Roberts) where companies have been put to an extra charge, by repayment and re-borrowing of terminable loans, have been met by the Minister's reply. They are still further met and very amply met, by the guarantee of the 1913 return. If this Amendment is pressed, doubtless it will be carried, but I hope what I have said will be considered, because I do not believe it is a fair Amendment.
My hon. and gallant Friend, quite inadvertently, I am sure, has given the House a wrong impression as to the effect of the Amendment, which, as he will realise, I have only moved in order to have the point discussed. If I caught the remarks of my hon. and gallant Friend aright, he said in opening that it was unfair that the worked lines should receive the maximum rate upon the 1913 traffic. That is not what would be the effect of the Clause, if this Amendment were passed. The Clause provides that the amount payable to the owning company shall be such as would have been payable if the rates in respect of such traffic had been the same as those in operation during 1913, and the Amendment proposes to substitute the word "authorised" for the words "in operation." It is not the traffic in 1913, but the rates authorised in 1913, and therefore what you get is this. The owning company says, "We are entitled to the bargain which we made with the nation. If the working company is to charge more we should, at any rate, receive a credit in respect of those larger powers up to the maximum which Parliament authorised."
The point about the Act of 1894, with great respect to the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) and the hon. and gallant Member for Durham (Major Hills), is not really a sound point. We are not talking of these lines actually raising their charges. None of the lines could have raised their charges sufficiently expeditiously, and the large lines, the working lines, got emergency powers from Parliament to raise their charges. It is possible that the worked lines under the Act of 1894 would have had great difficulty in getting increased charges, but that does not really matter. They had rights enabling them to charge up to a certain figure. They have had incidental increased costs. They have certain charging powers. We have knowledge that those charging powers are a valuable part of their property. All the Amendment suggests is that their percentage should be calculated, not upon the actual charges in 1913, not on the emergency standard given to the working companies, but on the level to which they are entitled. I do not think that is unreasonable. I agree that the next thing that comes in is the pledge as to the minimum of the net receipts of 1913, and I agree that to the extent to which they can be pledged the working company can say, "It is a terrible thing that we have to guarantee these people for a year and a half." On the other hand, the worked lines can say, "We have never had a dog's chance to develop our traffic. We have had nothing to do with what traffic passed over the line, and we have had no say in the charges. It is the big lines and the associations of big lines which put up the request for these charges, and it may be that in our little business we could have done better, but we were handed over body and soul to these big lines."
They agreed to it.
I agree, but still abnormal circumstances have obtained, and I think in those abnormal circumstances, as the big lines have had the full benefit of these charges, and wanted them, it is not unreasonable that the small lines for this interim period should get their receipts based upon what Parliament authorised them to charge. For these reasons I think the Amendment is not unreasonable.
If this Amendment be carried the words which occur later on, "guaranteed net receipts, 1913," should be omitted. It has been said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich, and I agree with him, that a Parliamentary bargain should never be broken. There is nobody stronger on that point than I am, but are we breaking a Parliamentary bargain in this case? What is happening is that Parliament is altering all the arrangements with all the railway companies, and you cannot say that one particular set of companies alone must have all their old arrangements carried out, and that they are not to have their arrangements altered in the same way as the rest. Let us be careful as to what we are doing. I have just had put into my hand a statement with regard to a certain owning company, in connection with certain iron furnaces and the export of material. At the present moment that particular traffic is non-existent, and in all probability for the next year and a half it will be very moderate; but yet under this Clause we are going to make a present to that company of the whole of the dividends they received in 1913. If on the top of that the rates should be calculated, not on the rates which were in existence in 1913, but on the rates which might have been charged in 1913, I venture to say we are conferring an unnecessary and uncalled-for boon upon that particular company.
I have consulted with the right hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. Roberts) who moved the original Amendment to delete the Clause and withdrew it, on the assurance that the matter would be discussed on this Amendment. If it is the pleasure of the House, I am prepared now to withdraw the present Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, to leave out the words "actual receipts," and to insert instead thereof the words "amount actually paid."
This is a drafting Amendment. The working companies do not get traffic receipts, but have a lump sum paid to them, which makes this alteration necessary.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 76.—(Accounts, returns, and statistics.)
(1) The accounts to be rendered under the Railway Companies (Accounts and Returns) Act, 1911, shall be compiled in such manner as may be determined by the Railway Clearing House with the approval of the Minister, or, if the Minister is unable to approve the proposals of the Railway Clearing House, as may be determined by the Minister after reference to, and considering the report thereon by, a committee composed of not less than three or more than six persons nominated by the Railway Companies' Association, and not less than three or more than six expert and impartial persons of wide commercial and trading experience to be chosen by the Minister from the panel set up under Section twenty-three of the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919, as extended by this Act.
(2) It shall be the duty of every railway company to compile and render to the Minister the statistics and returns set out in the Eighth Schedule to this Act, subject, nevertheless, to such variation as may from time to time be agreed between the Minister and the Railway Companies' Association.
(3) In the event of non-compliance on the part of any railway company with any requirement of this Section, the requirement shall be enforceable by order of the Railway and Canal Commission on the application of the Minister in any of the ways referred to in Section three of the Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1854, or Section six of the Regulations of Railways Act, 1873.
(4) Nothing in this Section shall be interpreted to authorise any limitation of or interference with the control of the proprietors of any undertaking over the purposes to which its expenditure is to be applied.
I beg to move to leave out the Clause.
I wish to give the Minister an opportunity of carrying out a pledge which he gave in Committee to consult the Law Officers of the Crown as to whether Subsection (2) of this Clause was governed by Sub-section (3).
The pledge to which the right hon. Baronet refers was, of course, carried out. The opinion of the Law Officers was obtained, and it was to the effect that, seeing that Sub-section (2) deals with a purely voluntary variation, Sub-section (3) could not possibly affect it.
I wish to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson), requiring statistics in regard to the economical working of railways, would, I think, if inserted here, conflict with what the House decided on Clause 26, which deals with the question of economical working.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "compiled," to insert the words "by companies parties to the Clearing House."
It seems scarcely fair that companies which do not come under the Clearing House should be condemned to abide by these decisions.
I beg to second the Amendment.
It is very unusual for my hon. Friend to make mistakes, but I think he has made a mistake here, because this Sub-section deals only with accounts. These accounts are compiled to-day under the Railway Companies (Accounts and Returns) Act, 1911, and it applies to railways whether they join the Railway Clearing House or not. There is no statutory obligation on a company to belong to the Clearing House, and this Sub-section deals only with accounts. Sub-section (2) has to do with statistics, and I should be prepared to endeavour to meet the point qua statistics.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Amendment next on the Paper, in the name of the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. MacVeagh), in regard to light railway companies, which is, I understand, met by a Government Amendment that has been handed in, to come in at the end of Sub-section (2), had better perhaps be moved now, and then the Government can put forward their alternative.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "company," to insert the words
"other than light railway companies, unless the cost of the preparation of the statistics and returns is repaid by the Minister."
The object of the Amendment is to obviate, in the case of the smaller companies, the preparation of elaborate and costly returns. Obviously when the capital of a company is very small the proportion which this expenditure would bear to the total expenditure would b3 much heavier than in the case of the larger companies.
I beg to. second the Amendment.
I do not think the House should be asked to accept this Amendment in the form in which it is moved. These smaller companies are all having the question of their charging powers altered without the promotion of private Bills or the necessity of coming for amending Orders. They have a simplified procedure in many ways, and if that simplified procedure and that increased freedom and elasticity in regard to charging powers are given to them, then in the interests of the public it is essential that the public should have the statistical information necessary to enable their cost operations to be properly considered. At the same time, I recognise, and, indeed, it is recognised to-day in the statistics that are compiled, that on some of these small railways it is ridiculous to bind them to the expenditure on returns which is necessary on the larger systems. A great deal of their train mileage is what we call mixed train mileage—livestock freights, mineral traffic, and passengers all mixed up—and, if this would meet the views of the House, I would suggest moving an Amendment, if this were with drawn, at the end of Sub-section (2), in the following words:
"Provided that the Minister may exempt any light railway company from the obligation imposed by this Sub-section to such extent as he may think fit."
I am much obliged for the suggestion, which I readily accept, and I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Before the Amendment is withdrawn, I should like to say that I think it is forgotten that the statistics—and no one desires useful statistics more than I do—are only to be such statistics as the railway companies agree to with the Minister, and surely the Minister should take power to ask for any statistics that he may require.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "Act," to insert the words
"sub-divided in the case of an amalgamated company in accordance with such large operating areas as may be agreed between the Minister and the company."
The object of this Amendment is to provide that the figures shall be sufficiently cut up to make them of use. Whereas you might not get very good operating criticism from figures applying to a whole system, you would get useful criticism if they were sub-divided into areas. I realise that criticism may come from certain quarters because this is set out to be agreed between the Minister and the big companies, but I submit that, looking to the future of railways as laid down by this Bill, it would be undesirable to say to the companies, " You must cut these up in any way that is desired." The companies, even though some of them—a minority—are against the use of these statistics to-day, will, I am sure, come to their use. They will cut them up in a way to make them most useful to themselves, and if it is the most useful way to themselves, it is also the most useful way to others who wish to criticise the working.
I think this is a very useful Amendment, if the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to say so. This Eighth Schedule is of very great importance, and will be seen to be of greater importance still in the future by big bodies of traders. I think it will be necessary to divide up these statistics, and I must say that the figures asked for in the Eighth Schedule, covering, for example, the whole of a group stretching from the Thames to the North of Scotland, would be of very little value unless they were sub-divided, but I cannot understand why the word "large" should occur in the Amendment as applied to the operating areas to be agreed upon. It is a very vague term, and as I suppose the Minister will speak with the voice of the trading interests, will not the word "large" rather hamper him? The areas will be agreed, and I think it would be very much better that the word "large" should be left out, as I do not see that it would do any good, and it might strengthen the hands of certain companies who wished to obstruct the giving of these statistics in a useful form.
I have no objection to the word being left out. In fact, I think it is redundant.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out the word "large"
I beg to second the Amendment to the proposed Amendment.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed, "That the proposed words, as amended, be there inserted in the Bill."
The Rates Tribunal may, and probably will, want certain statistics which have not been supplied to them; they ask the Minister for them; and the Minister cannot obtain them without the agreement of the railway companies. I want to point that out to the right hon. Gentleman.
What would happen supposing the Minister and the companies did not agree?
The statistics which are being compiled and which are in the Schedule are necessarily much more numerous than appears really to be necessary, and so far as those who advise me and who have been dealing with these matters are concerned—and I venture to think that none are more competent to express an opinion on these matters than Sir George Beharrell and his staff—they think these requirements are adequate. The question is, what is to happen if they prove to be inadequate?
Supposing you cannot agree on the areas?
I do not think there will be any difficulty about that. I would like to put it this way. In the first place, we believe the statistics to be adequate. If they prove in time to be totally inadequate, the only way of dealing with the thing in an ordinary proper manner is by a short Bill to amend this Clause; but I cannot imagine it will come to that for this reason. We want statistics to enable the Rates Tribunal and the traders to see how the railways are being operated. We do not want to go into the minute details with which every district superintendent has to deal. The Rates Tribunal say, "Here is an application; here are the various submissions on both sides; we want certain information from the Minister." The Minister's staff are called upon to give help, and the Minister says, "The statistics I have got do not cover that." The Rates Tribunal then says to the company, "You really have got to make your case; we cannot accept the figures as proving or disproving the case." That seems to be the real, practical way of dealing with it. If it were found that the figures were always insufficient, I cannot imagine the companies would not, in their own interests, rather than take their case back again and again, supply what was needed. That is really the safeguard.
Proposed words, as amended, there inserted in the Bill.
Further Amendment made: At the end of Sub-section (2) insert the words
"Provided that the Minister may exempt any light railway company from the obligation imposed by this Sub-section to Such extent as he may think fit."—[ Sir E. Geddes. ]
CLAUSE 77.—(Provision for applications by public authorities in certain cases.)
(3) Any authority or body as aforesaid may appear in opposition to any application in any case where such authority, or the persons represented by them, appear to the Board of Trade to be likely to be affected by the decision on any such application.
I beg to move, in- Sub-section (3), after the word "application" ["opposition to any application"], to insert the words "representation or submission."
This Amendment is only to bring the Clause into conformity with the rest of the Bill.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I see no objection to these words.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made: At the end of Sub-section (3), insert the words "representation or submission."—[ Sir W. Raeburn. ]
CLAUSE 79.—(Provisions as to inquiries.)
(3) Any expenses incurred by the Minister in relation to any such local inquiry, or an inquiry by a committee chosen from such panel as aforesaid, shall be paid by the railway companies and other persons concerned in the inquiry, or by such of them and in such proportions as the Minister may direct; and the Minister may certify the amount of the expenses incurred, and any sum so certified and directed by the Minister to be paid by any railway company or other person shall be a debt to the Crown from such company or person.
I beg to move, in Subsection (3), after the word "chosen," to insert the words "either wholly or partly."
Sub-section (3) provides for the payment by the Minister of the expense of local inquiries or inquiries by a committee chosen from the panel. It has been pointed out that the committee might consist partly of members chosen from the panel and partly of other persons, and I move this Amendment in order to meet that point.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 82.—(Application to Scotland.)
This Act in its application to Scotland shall be subject to the following modifications:—
( a ) "Burgh" shall be substituted for "borough," "servitude" for "easement," and the Companies Clauses Consolidation (Scotland) Act, 1845, for the Companies Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845:
I beg to move, in paragraph ( a ), to leave out the words
"and the Companies Clauses Consolidation (Scotland) Act, 1845, for the Companies Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845:"This is a drafting Amendment necessitated by the railways which formed the Scottish group being linked up with the English railways.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 84.—(Definition of railway company.)
For the purposes of this Act the expression "railway company" includes a joint committee of two or more railway companies and the owners of any railway to which at the passing of this Act a Railways Rates and Charges Order within the meaning of Part III of this Act applies.
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to insert the words
"and where a railway is owned by a joint committee of two or more railway companies it shall, for the purposes of this Act, be deemed to be jointly owned by those companies."
This Amendment is to meet the case of the Cheshire Lines Committee and similar companies, in which the companies have joined a new statutory committee to work their undertakings.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 85.—(Short title and repeal.)
(2) The enactments mentioned in the Ninth Schedule to this Act are, except so far as they relate to Ireland, hereby repealed to the extent specified in the third column of that Schedule, but this repeal shall not as respects the enactments mentioned in Part II of that Schedule have effect until the appointed day fixed under Part III of this Act, and nothing in this repeal shall affect the constitution of the Light Railway Commission or the remuneration of any members there of so long as they continue to perform the duties reserved to them under this Act.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to insert the words
"Provided that for the purpose of the said Schedule the expression "light railway" shall not include a light railway forming part of the system of an amalgamated company, and an amalgamated company owning a light railway shall not in relation thereto be deemed to be a light railway company."
This is consequential upon an Amendment carried earlier in the day, in which we endeavoured to secure to the light railways, if they became part of the amalgamated companies, all the rights
and interests attaching to amalgamated companies.
FIRST SCHEDULE. 1. 2. 3. Groups. Constituent Companies. Subsidiary Companies. 1. The Southern Group 1. The London and South Western Railway Company; the London Brighton and South Coast Railway Company; the South Eastern Railway Company; the London Chatham and Dover Railway Company; the South Eastern and Chatham Railway Companies Managing Committee. 1. The Bridgwater Railway Company, the Brighton and Dyke Railway Company; the Freshwater Yarmouth and Newport (Isle of Wight) Railway Company; the Hayling Railways Company; the Isle of Wight Railway Company; the Isle of Wight Central Railway Company; the Lee on-the-Solent Railway Company; the London and Greenwich Railway Company; the Mid Kent Railway (Bromley to St. Mary Cray) Company; the North Cornwall Railway Company; the Plymouth and Dartmoor Railway Company; the Plymouth, Devonport and South Western Junction Railway Company; the Sidmouth Railway Company; the Victoria Station and Pimlico Railway Company. 2. The Western Group. 2. The Great Western Railway Company. 2. The Alexandra (Newport and South Wales) Docks and Railway Company; the Barry Railway Company; the Brecon and Merthyr Tydfil Junction Railway Company; the Burry Part and Gwendreath Valley Railway Company; the Cambrian Railway Company; the Cardiff Railway Company; the Cleobury Mortimer and Ditton Priors Light Railway Company; the Didcot Newbury and Southampton Railway Company; the Exeter Railway Company; the Festiniog Railway Company; the Forest of Dean Central Railway Company; the Gwendreath Valleys Railway Company; the Lampeter, Aberayron and New Quay Light Railway Company; the Liskeard and Looe Railway Company; the Llanelly and Mynydd Mawr Railway Company; the Mawddy Railway Company; the Midland and South Western Junction Railway Company; the Neath and Brecon Railway Company; the Penarth Extension Railway Company; the Penarth Harbour, Dock and Railway Company; the Port Talbot Railway and Docks Company; the Princetown Railway Company; the Rhondda and Swansea Bay Railway Company; the Rhymney Railway Company; the Ross and Monmouth Railway Company; the Shropshire Railway (Nantmawr Branch) Company; the South Wales Mineral Railway Company; the Taff Vale Railway Company; the Tanat Valley Light Railway Company; the Teign Valley Railway Company; the Vale of Glamorgan Railway Company; the Van Railway Company; the Welshpool and Llanfair Light Railway Company; the West Somerset Railway Company; the Wrexham and Ellesmere Railway Company. 3. The North Western, Midland, and West Scottish Group. 3. The London and North Western Railway Company; the Midland Railway Company; the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company; the North Staffordshire Railway Company; the Furness Railway Company; the Caledonian Railway Company; the Glas- 3. The Arbroath and Forfar Railway Company; the Brechin and Edzell District Railway Company; the Callendar and Oban Railway Company; the Cathcart District Railway Company; the Charnwood Forest Railway Company; the Cleator and Workington Junction Railway Company; the Cockermouth, Keswick and Penrith Railway Company; the Dearne Valley Railway Company; the Dornoch Light Railway Company; the Dundee and Newtyle Railway Company; the Harborne Railway Company; the Killin Railway Company; the Lanarkshire and Ayrshire Railway Company; the Knott End Railway Company; the Leek and Manifold
Amendment agreed to.
1. 2. 3. Groups. Constituent Companies. Subsidiary Companies. 3. The North Western. Midland and West Scottish Group— cont. gow and South Western Railway Company; the Highland Railway Company. Valley Light Railway Company; the Maryport and Carlisle Railway Company; the Mold and Denbigh Junction Railway Company; the North and South Western Junction Railway Company; the North London Railway Company; the Port-patrick and Wigtownshire Joint Railway Company; the Shropshire Union Railways and Canal Company; the Solway Junction Railway Company; the Stratford-upon-Avon and Midland Junction Railway Company; the Tottenham and Forest Gate Railway Company; the Wick and Lybster Light Railway Company; the Wirral Railway Company; the Yorkshire Dales Railway (Skipton to Grassington) Company. 4 The North Eastern, Eastern, and East Scottish Group 4. The North Eastern Railway Company; the Great Central Railway Company; the Great Eastern Railway Company; the Great Northern Railway Company; the Hull and Barnsley Railway Company; the North British Railway Company; the Great North of Scotland Railway Company. 4 The Brackenhill Light Railway Company; the Colne Valley and Halstead Railway Company; the East and West Yorkshire Union Railways Company; the East Lincolnshire Railway Company; the Edinburgh and Bathgate Railway Company; the Forcett Railway Company; the Forth and Clyde Junction Railway Company; the Gifford and Garvald Light Railway Company; the Great North of England, Clarence and Hartlepool Junction Railway Company; the Horncastle Railway Company; the Humber Commercial Railway and Dock Company; the Kilsyth and Bonnybridge Railway Company; the Lauder Light Railway Company; the London and Blackwall Railway Company; the Mansfield Railway Company; the Mid-Suffolk Light Railway Company; the Newburgh and North Fife Railway Company; the North Lindsey Light Railways Company; the Nottingham and Grantham Railway and Canal Company; the Nottingham Joint Station Committee; the Nottingham Suburban Railway Company; the Seaforth and Sefton Junction Railway Company; the Sheffield District Railway Company; the South Yorkshire Junction Railway Company; the Stamford and Essendine Railway Company; the West Riding Railway Committee.
I beg to move, in paragraph (1), column 2, to leave out the words "The London and South Western Railway Company."
I move this Amendment in what I believe to be the interests of both Sussex and Kent, which are served by the London, Chatham and Dover Railway, the South Eastern Railway and the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway. The London and South Western Railway touches one of those railways—the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway—at only one or two points, and its interests are entirely foreign to any interests we have in Sussex and Kent. One example is that the South Eastern and the London and Brighton—and I can assure the House I have not the least interest in the point of view of the railways—have through a long period of years encouraged the business of transporting persons who earn their daily bread in London to and from the seaside towns, and I think that, in the case of the London and Brighton Railway at Brighton and Worthing, and in the case of the South Eastern at Ramsgate, Margate, Herne Bay and such places, those railways have brought to a fine art this business of bringing people up to London and taking them back again, and it is extremely well and efficiently done. The London and South Western Railway has no traffic of that kind at all. The nearest approach to it is Southsea, but by reason of the atrocious service of trains on the Portsmouth line, no one could possibly make use of that line to earn his daily bread. It is a pleasure to all who live on that most detestable railway to know that it has been very seriously hit by road transport, and all who can possibly use road transport do so.
7.0 P.M.
Therefore, we hope that the South Western Railway will be left out of our group, and my Amendment is supported by a large number of representative people, both in Kent and Sussex, including a large proportion of hon. Members representing Kent and Sussex. Another reason why we hope the South Western Railway will be left out of this group is that it has no connection with the other two railways. Its interests are entirely different. It has mainly long-distance traffic to the West of England, and it is in no sense a semi-suburbanised system, like the London and Brighton and the South Eastern Railways. It is notorious that there is no railway in England which has made more retrograde—I can assure my hon. Friend (Viscount Elve-den) who laughs that I am not going to use the grammar of his native isle, and say "progress"—there is no railway in England which has taken more retrograde steps in the management of its line than the London and South Western has done since the War. I will give an example. Prior to the War, the trains on the South Western Railway were almost invariably punctual, and compared in that respect very favourably with the South Eastern and London and Brighton Railways. Today, I have no hesitation in saying that, As far as punctuality of trains is concerned, the London and Brighton and even the South Eastern is infinitely superior to the London and South Western. On the South Eastern the punctuality of the trains is far better than it was 10 or 15 years ago, and there is a general improvement in the service which has surprised many who knew it in the old days, when it became a sort of synonym for everything bad in railways. It is notorious that the London and South Western management generally is not at all on friendly terms with its staff. The South Western Railway has had a strike, or two strikes, entirely of its own, and in one case there was chaos, if not anarchy, on that railway which reminded us somewhat of travel in Central or South America. Its directorate, with the exception, of course, of the hon. Member who represents them in this House (Colonel Sir R. Williams) and is not present, is not such as to inspire any great confidence in business men, at any rate, we certainly have none in Sussex. We should be much better with our own railways than with the London and South Western Railway. As far as I know, the only point at which the London and South Western and the London and Brighton Railways inter-act in any way is on the line to Portsmouth. Otherwise the London and Brighton system is quite distinct from the South Western system. On these grounds I hope very much that the London and South Western will be left out of this group.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I feel rather confused between the Noble Lord's statement as to "retrograde progress" on the one railway and "progressive legislation" on the other.
The right hon. Gentleman is quite mistaken in supposing that I talked of "retrograde progress." It was my Noble Friend below me (Viscount Elveden) who suggested, in an interruption, that I was using the grammar of his native island.
I am obliged to my Noble Friend for putting me right. He said he was speaking in the interests of Kent and Sussex, but it was obvious that he himself had suffered in some other county. He seemed to assume that the retrograde progress of the one line would affect the progression of the other two. That, I submit, is not at all necessary under the Bill. The more virile and better managed line, wherever it may be, will, I feel sure, take a very prominent part in the organisation of this group in the future. It is rather a selfish line to take up, if I may respectfully say so, in a matter of this kind, to say: "We have a little railway which is now giving us great satisfaction. We wish to keep our small railway. We do not want anyone else to benefit. We do not want the great lump of retrograde progress to be leavened with the good line, which we wish to keep for ourselves." These three lines, in the opinion of the Government, of the railway companies, and of the Railway Companies' Association as a whole, always excluding my right hon. Friend, form a very convenient operating group. They are all south of London, and the problem of getting the great suburban and extra suburban population in and out of London is a problem common to all these three lines in the south. They make a very convenient group, from the point of view of management and. economy, and it will interest the House to know that they have been developing on lines which actually made it impossible for the modern appliances of railway traction to be moved from one line to the other. I think amongst the two most excellent ones the difference was so great that one was putting on stock which could not run on the other railway or on any other railway in the country. It was using equipment which was absolutely useless on any other railway. Their stock could not be run through or used in times of pressure on any other line. If ever there was justification for making this group, it is supplied by the experience of these railways.
These three companies offer a very striking example of similarity in practice, which shows how like they are in the problem they have to face. On the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway 68 per cent, of the traffic is coach traffic and 25 per cent, freight. On the London and South Western 62 per cent. is coach traffic and 29 per cent. freight. On the South Eastern 59 per cent, is coach traffic and 30 per cent. freight. I was very struck to see how very near these three lines run in the proportions of passenger traffic and freight traffic. That is entirely different from the Great Western Railway, where the percentage is 37 per cent. for coach traffic and 54 per cent, for freight, instead of what is roughly on the other three lines 66 per cent. coach traffic and 30 per cent. freight. So these three lines are really more nearly allied, from the point of view of the problems that they have to face, the developments to which they have to look, and of the equipment they have to adopt than any other three lines. I am quite sure on these lines more than others there will be economy, and I hope the Noble Lord will not press his Amendment.
The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my case. He spoke in a very disparaging way of what he was pleased to call "this little railway." I do not know if the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway is a little railway It is a very important one—
Little, compared to the amalgamated system.
A little railway compared with the extraordinary idea of magnitude which is always in the right hon. Gentleman's mind. His magnitude is always much more in the air than on the earth. Everything is little to him. When he introduced his electrical schemes it was "quite small." I do not consider these railways are little at all. These two particular lines serve the most populous districts in the south of England. The right hon. Gentleman said these three railways were all south of London. He might as well say that the north of France should be included in his group, because that is south of London also. That was no argument at all, and was perfectly puerile. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of passenger traffic. He said that the proportion of passenger traffic to the freight traffic was very much the same in the case of all three lines. It is obvious that in the non-industrial part of England the proportion of passenger and freight traffic on the various lines will be very much the same.
I was talking about passenger traffic. He was talking about long-distance agricultural traffic.
The right hon. Gentleman misunderstood my argument. I was speaking about passenger traffic. I said that the South Eastern Railway and the London and Brighton Railway were interested as no other railways are, in this "daily breader" traffic, that is, the traffic from the seaside towns which have become more or less the dormitories of London. I said that in the case of the London and South Western such traffic as there was was long-distance and entirely agricultural.
Has the Noble Lord ever got out of Waterloo, through Woking and Guildford to the country in the south? He would see the "daily breaders" there.
My hon. Friend who comes from north of the Border is perhaps unaware that Woking is not a seaside town.
As I happen to live in Woking, I think I do know that.
I thought he was under a misapprehension in believing that Woking was a seaside town. I was referring to the special conditions on the London and Brighton Railway with regard to what one might call the "London dormitories," and what may be described as a highly specialised daily traffic to London. Nothing of that sort exists on the London and South Western Railway. My right hon. Friend referred in very grandiose terms to the question of standardisation. He said in the case of the South Eastern Railway there were certain—
I did not say the South Eastern.
Well, the London and Brighton Railway.
No, I did not say the London and Brighton.
If it is not the South Eastern, the London and Brighton, or the London and South Western, I do not see the point of the argument. I understood his argument to be that it is necessary in the interests of standardisation for three railways to be put into one group. I would refer him to Clause 14 of his own Bill, which imposes standardisation on the railways quite irrespective of grouping. I do not see how his argument applies in view of this Clause.
I did not mention any of the railways by name in connection with standardisation.
The right hon. Gentleman said they had made all their arrangements. He said that the rolling stock belonging to one of the railways in this suggested group could not at present be used on the lines of any others. I do not press the point, because I do not see where his argument affects my suggestion in view of the Clause 14 which deals with standardisation. I do not wish to divide the House on the Amendment, but I desire to make a protest on behalf of those I represent against the London and South Western Railway Company being included in our group. The matter is not one of very great importance, because I think the whole system built up by the right hon. Gentleman's Bill will come crashing to the ground in a very few years. The only favourable thing I know about this Bill is that it is going to remove my right hon. Friend else-where. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
I am sorry the Noble Lord did not give me notice that he was going to attack the London and South Western Railway, or I would have been in the House. I am told he has made certain animadversions against the general manager of the London and South Western Railway. If he knew as much about that railway's difficulties and about that gentleman in particular as he seems to know about the traffic generally on the Southern lines, he would not have made such statements as I am told he has made, and which I greatly regret. When I have read his remarks to-morrow, I may have to write him a letter.
I should be glad any time to receive a letter from the hon. Baronet.
I should like to associate myself and the Government in the opinion expressed by the hon. Baronet. In my personal opinion, there is no justification for what has been said against the management of the London and South Western Railway.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, in paragraph 2, column 3, to leave out the words
"The Alexandra (Newport and South Wales) Docks and Railway Company; the Barry Railway Company;"
This is the first of a series of Amendments put down to carry out a promise given to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) with reference to the grouping. There was a promise given that certain lines should be removed from column 3 to column 2.
The Parliamentary Secretary says that this Amendment is carrying out the agreement which was arrived at in Committee in the case of these railways. I should just like at this stage, because the other Amendments are consequential, to make a comment or two upon the situation which will develop in South Wales as a result of the new grouping, and to make—I will not say an appeal—but to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Totnes (Colonel Mildmay) perhaps to respond in a word or two, seeing he is one of the directors of the Great Western Railway Company, and has taken a very sympathetic part in the discussions which have come out of these Amendments.
The position in South Wales has been developed almost solely upon the competition of the various railway companies. That competition, I quite well admit, has brought in its train a certain amount of unnecessary duplication, involving, of course, a large amount of expenditure which under a system where everybody did exactly the right thing, would have been avoided. However that may be, and making all allowances for the one or two unnecessary lines of railways, the duplication of railway works and all the expense contingent, and a certain amount of friction which followed, the great, broad, general result has been of enormous benefit to the public and the coal trade of South Wales. It is known to all those who have any interest at all in that vast and vital national factor, the South Wales coalfields—because it is that—that this system of competition has been built up upon the lines that the longer lead was taken into account and that the same charge was made to the freighter at the docks more distant from the colliery as the dock nearer to it. Take the case of Penarth Docks and Barry Docks as compared with the shorter distance of the docks in the City of Cardiff itself.
There has been a more important factor, and that is the development of the Monmouthshire coalfields. This has been very much assisted by the fact that in any competition of the railways in and near Cardiff, the Barry Railway and the Taff Railway have been able to attract traffic from the Monmouthshire coalfields—naturally, so far as distance is concerned—from Bute, to be shipped by those other competing docks. The result has been, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) knows quite well, an enormous development of the coalfields. The real point is, whatever the dock unit may be, the development of the coalfields. The result of that competition has been entirely beneficial to the trade as a whole. This great grouping having been decided upon, what is of immense importance is that the dominating company, in this case the Great Western Railway Company, should—if I may say so—play fair all round, because if that is not the case, it is not so much a question of individual railway companies now being amalgamated or in their interests, but the interest of the coal trade as a whole that is at stake. My own judgment is that given certain fair conditions nothing will make up for loss of competition. Every trader knows that. That is practically what is going to happen here. Competition is I fear going to be substantially eliminated.
I want to say this about the Great Western Railway Company. I travel by its lines very frequently. I regard it with satisfaction so far as my own personal comfort is concerned. I also notice with great interest the remarkable development, initiative, and enterprise on that great line. If one could be assured that, notwithstanding temptations which must come, the directorate of that company would pursue a thoroughly enlightened policy, no real harm would come to the coal trade by the new combination. I would ask my right hon. Friend, if he takes part in the Debate—as I hope he will—that so far as he can speak for this great company he will on the Floor of this House state that the policy which they will adopt is one upon the lines I have taken, and will indicate that they will rigidly refuse to be tempted by the inducement of sending traffic by the shortest lead. While that might give minor economies for the moment, it will inevitably lead, in the long view, to restriction of trade and to loss by railway companies and the whole of the trading public in this most important part of the country.
Let me give, very briefly, an instance of where the operations in the coal trade of a rather specialised kind might be seriously damaged if that policy of short views is adopted. Hon. Members who know anything about the trade carried on in these ports know that an operation known as mixing is one that has been developed of recent years and is of great commercial importance. It is, I think, at the present moment even of greater importance than ever, because the whole trade of this country has been brought into the sharpest conflict and competition with the coal trade of the world, and particularly with that of America. The old idea that you can send out British coal and get a market for it anywhere you like has gone, and it is just as well that the company should face it—and workers and the owners together. The British coal trade is in for the severest form of competition for all its markets. An entry into many new markets has been secured by the merchants adopting the practice of what is known as mixing. This is to bring down from the various collieries the coal on different lines to the docks, and then the wagons are tipped, sometimes three at a. time, sometimes six at a time, sometimes only one, but the various grades of coal are all mixed as they are shot into the ship, and this produces a commercial asset which has been much sought after in the coal markets of the world. I hope I have made myself clear. If that system goes, a real commercial asset in competition for the coal trade of the world goes as well, an asset that has been developed and maintained in South Wales by the competition of the various railway companies. I know very well that the dock owning railway companies have regarded this operation with a certain amount of disfavour, because, obviously, it involves an additional amount of labour to them, in engine-power and man-power, and an addition to the complex work at the docks.
Merchants and the great colliery owners have been able to maintain this particular class of business by reason of the fact—to put it quite plainly—that they were able to play off one dock against another. If one railway would not give facilities another did. Here, quite obviously, is the danger, that element of competition being substantially gone. You are left with a great temptation on the part of the great owning companies to cut down these facilities which have not, as I say, only benefited the particular colliery owners and merchants, but has really allowed the trade to find a way into the great markets of the world. I just want very briefly, in two or three sentences, to point out to the House what immense importance that has been, not only to the coal trade but to the whole shipping tirade—
I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman thinks we have arrived at the Third Reading of the Bill. The Amendment only raises the question of whether certain of these companies are to be subsidiary companies of constituent companies.
I quite admit that I should not have gone into that aspect of the question. I have tried to be as careful as I could, and I was carried away by the subject, and the fear as to what might happen with this combination to the coal trade, and the general principles that I have been endeavouring to enunciate as a basis of future policy for South Wales. Let me conclude by saying that the reflex of the whole of this question of railway accommodation is shown by this particular instance. It is not the reflex of these disadvantages merely upon the trades concerned, but upon the vital interests of the country as a whole, especially in its ship-borne traffic.
I hope before the right hon. Gentleman speaks, if he is going to give any indication of the policy of the Great Western Railway Company in dealing with this matter, that he will not be tempted to fall to the eloquent plea of my right hon. Friend, because no one has championed South Wales more than he has. I do not want the Great Western representative to make the mistake of confusing the interests of Cardiff with the interests of Newport. It is perfectly true that there were preferential rates that enabled the coal to be taken right through from Newport to Cardiff when it would have saved a distance of 12 miles if the same rate were charged to Cardiff. Here is the great advantage of this Bill. At present each railway owns its dock, but in future the Great Western will own the four docks when the amalgamation scheme comes into operation. The difficulty in South Wales and one of the most important factors in the delay in shipping is getting ships away. One of the difficulties is that the collieries in South Wales are aften stopped two or three days because they cannot get empties back owing to the congestion in consequence of so many systems being in operation. I believe those difficulties will be obviated, but at the same time, as an old servant of the Great Western, I pay this compliment to them, that if any company will do the right thing it will be the Great Western, I hope, therefore, that they will not give a preference to any particular port, but take into consideration that the whole of the ports are of equal interest to them, and not any particular one. I agree that South Wales is vitally interested, and I believe it will benefit as a result of the proposal we are now considering.
I should like to acknowledge the way in which the last speaker alluded to the Great Western Railway Company, and I am proud that their efforts to serve the public and the country as they ought to do have been recognised so freely. I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) will have realised from our attitude upstairs our intense anxiety to do justice in the sense that he suggests. All through the Committee stage we took particular care to listen to all the representations to us, to receive deputations, and to hear what all who were concerned had to say, and I think finally we generously endeavoured to meet his wishes as to the inclusion of these railways. I think the right hon. Gentleman need have no fears, because our policy has been to do justice all round. As to the development of the coalfields and the particular points to which the hon. Member for Derby made allusion, namely, the grading of various kinds of coal in ships, the extent to which the various ports and docks are used, is a complicated question. The company has studied it to a very great degree, and it would be folly for any representative of the company to indicate now exactly what will be their policy; but I may say they are only concerned to do justice all round, hear all that is to be said on the subject, and act accordingly.
The fears of local labour in South Wales are without foundation. Fears have been expressed lest local workshops are all to be shut up. Everybody knows that repair works will still be necessary in South Wales. It may be advisable that certain constructive works should be mainly done by various centres, but labour in South Wales need not be frightened in this respect, and we have confidence that the effect of this amalgamation and the taking over by the Great Western Group of responsibility for those railways will result in great improvements all round to the public as well as to those employed on the railways. The Great Western Railway Company has always found, as other companies have found, that the greater facilities you give to the public and the more you study the interests of the public the more you develop traffic, and the more prosperous your railway becomes. The right hon. Gentleman said that nothing would make up for loss of competition and that it goes under this Bill. We have substituted co-operation for competition, and I believe the effect will be good. It will be for the Great Western Group and the Great Western Railway Company to show the public that their confidence is not displaced, and we intend to do our duty all round.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: In paragraph 2, column 2, after the word "Company" ["The Great Western Railway Company"], insert the words:
"the Barry Railway Company; the Cambrian Railway Company; the Cardiff Railway Company; the Rhymney Railway Company; the Taff Vale Railway Company; and the Alexandra (Newport and South Wales) Docks and Railway Company."
In paragraph 2, column 3, leave out the words
"the Cambrian Railway Company; the Cardiff Railway Company."—[ Sir E. Geddes. ]
I beg to move, in paragraph 2, column 3, after the word "Company" ["the Forest of Dean Central Railway Company"], to insert the words "Glyn Valley Tramway Company."
This is more in the nature of a light railway. I have been informed that this line is not in very good order, but the inhabitants of this little valley are of opinion that if this tramway is included in the group of railways there is a possibility of developing this little tramway, and making it into a very successul concern. In the development of the granite quarry through which this railway runs runs over £100,000 has been spent. They produced 64,000 tons of road-stone and 100,000 tons of slate per annum. The Cambrian Slate Quarry Company have spent between £150,000 and £170,000 in developing their property. They also produce silica which they send for export to Japan, Sweden, Scotland, Ireland, and also to the potteries in this country. Silica is found in abundance in this district, and it would be hard lines on this little valley if this railway should go out of existence on account of lack of capital.
I have been informed that it is on account of bad management that it is in such a bad state, but I am told that there is a chance of making it a paying concern if it is included in this group. All the people in this valley are dependent on this railway for their livelihood, and with these developments taking place in the slate quarry and the silica and road-stone quarries there is really a splendid opening in so far as this little village is concerned. I have also been informed that about one out of every seven of the population of this little valley enlisted during the War, and now they will have to face unemployment if this railway is to be left as it is, and this will be a great hardship on these people, in fact, it will paralyse the whole of this little valley. I hope, in the interests of the Glyn Valley people, and to give them employment, that the Minister of Transport will include this little railway amongst the other groups in the northern part of Wales.
I beg to second the Amendment.
The Great Western Railway Company has shown itself anxious at all times to interpret its responsibilities under this Bill in a generous sense as far as the public is concerned, but I submit that they should not lightly take the responsibility of this tramway, which is in the same category as other tramways which have been excluded from the Bill. I do not think that the Glyn Valley Tramway Company has ever approached the Great Western Railway Company with a view to being included in the group in the sense mentioned in the Amendment. The Glyn Valley Tramway has a gauge of 2 feet 4½ inches, and the whole of the traffic has to be transhipped from the point of junction, and there is no possibility of through working between the two systems. The tramway runs along the side of the road, and, being unfenced, it is a danger to the public, for which danger the Great Western Railway Company would have to make itself responsible. The gauge of the tramway could not be increased without acquiring fresh land over a considerable portion of the route. There is no room for widening the track, and this would involve costly diversions of the road and river.
If this tramway be worked by the Great Western Railway Company, it will be necessary to provide greatly increased facilities, involving new stations, new rolling stock, new permanent way, an increase of staff, and a great expenditure which would only be justified if there was a considerable increase in the returns. There is no prospect as to examination of the position of such an adequate return. The right hon. Gentleman who spoke and the Glyn Valley authorities have lately admitted, in the course of their recent representations, that the condition of the tramway is far from good and the company have no means of improving it. I find that it has paid no dividends since 1906, when they paid 1½ per cent. on the preference shares only. In future we shall be face to face with competition with road transport, and under all these circumstances, I put it to the House that the Great Western Group can scarcely be called upon to take over responsibility for this small tramway in the state which it is in, and I appeal to the House to reject this Amendment.
May I ask if this company may approach the railway company with a view to some arrangement? If so, I will withdraw the Amendment. No harm can be done by a discussion.
I may say that the Great Western Railway Company is always anxious to listen to any representations which may be made to them, and any representations which my right hon. Friend may have to make we shall be only too glad to hear.
Under these circumstances, I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The next Amendment in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton) is consequential on one which the hon. Member himself failed to move.
It is a matter of indifference whether the railway to which my Amendment refers—the Midland and South Western Junction Railway—is assigned to the South Western Group or to the Midland Central Group, for which provision is made in a later Amendment.
The hon. and gallant Member had an Amendment down to include it in the Southern Group, but he did not move that, and now I understand he wishes to exclude it from the Western Group. But as he was not in his place to move the first Amendment, the second, in my opinion, falls.
The original proposal of the Bill was that it should be added to the North Western Group, but the Amendment I now wish to move is to put it in the Midland Central Group.
There is some doubt as to which group these lines should properly be attached, and would it not therefore be as well to allow the discussion to take place on this Amendment? It could be subsequently decided, if the Amendment were carried, into which group it should go.
I think that would be a convenient course.
I beg to move, in paragraph 2, column 3, to leave out the words "the Midland and South Western Junction Railway Company."
This company, which I am proposing to leave out of the Western group, runs from Cheltenham on the Midland Railway to Andover on the South Western Railway system. It was financed jointly by the Midland Railway Company and the South Western Railway Company, and the object of the line is to give better access for the Midland Company to the growing port of Southampton. This line is in no sense part of, or in competition with, the Great Western system, except in the sense that the Great Western has an alternative line running through Didcot and Newbury. It is an exceedingly useful line and proved especially so during the War in affording ready access to the port of Southampton. It cuts right across the Great Western line. It has a connection with the Great Western main line at Swindon. This Amendment was discussed in Committee upstairs, and objection was taken that the approach of the Midland and South Western Company to Cheltenham was some 2½ miles over the Great Western line, over which there are running powers. There is really nothing in that argument. It was a flimsy and specious one which only affected the minds of those not well acquainted with the railway system. Running powers over this small section of line really gives no claim to the Great Western Company to take it over—the portion over which there are running powers being so small and so minute. Other great ports, like Hull, have alternative lines and alternative grouping to enable them to have delivery of traffic; but the Southampton line on the southern system has only one access except through London, a very roundabout way, to the Midland and Northern counties. It is not easy to understand under what principle this particular line is assigned to the Western group, except that during the discussion upstairs the Minister for Transport showed us a railway map in which the country was divided up in different colours notifying the groups into which various railways were divided all over the country. The Midland and South Western Railway, according to that map, was within the district which bore the Great Western colour. That, surely, is almost a childish argument.
The question really is, to what system of railways does this particular line be long. It is frankly a junction line. It clearly does not belong to the Great Western group. The line is important, I am informed, to the port of Bristol, and Bristol has an interest in this particular route being kept open to the Southern counties. I may point out to the House that the Southern counties, except where the Great Western crosses the Thames and encroaches into the area, are assigned in one long strip of country along the South coast. There is access to this southern group without crossing the Great Western with all its difficulties of interchange of traffic. I desire to take the opinion of the House as to the group into which this line should be placed. It is a matter of comparative indifference whether the railway is assigned to the Southern group or to the Midland group. To whichever group it may be assigned it has an approach. If it is handed over to the Great Western they will be able to handle that approach in a manner which best suits themselves, and I suggest that this intricate communication should be kept as between the Midland and the Southern counties, particularly in the interests of the Port of Southampton, which is continuously and rapidly developing.
The hon. and gallant Member has moved the omission of this railway from a particular group, but he was not in his place to move his Amendment that it should be inserted in another group.
I raised that point just now. I understand the hon. Member proposes to ask that it be inserted in the Midland group.
In the Midland or North Western.
The hon. Member must choose either one or the other.
8.0 P.M.
The Mover of the Amendment rightly said that this question was argued at great length in Committee upstairs, and I find he is now making a different proposal from that which he made upstairs. There he proposed that the railway should be given to the North Western Group, now, I take it, he wants it to go to the Southern Group. Is it not quite possible that both his suggestions are equally ill-advised? I fancy he is finally veering round to his former proposal to put it in the North Western Group, and I will put it to the House that the arguments in favour of its being attached to one or other of these groups cannot be very substantial. May I correct one error? It has been said that this is a joint line. As a matter of fact it is an independent company. I wish we had the map here in the House, because one has only to look at the map to see how ridiculous is the suggestion contained in the Amendment. This railroad cuts diagonally across the Great Western Group system, right across the territory which it is the object of that group to develop. It crosses the Great Western system at Swindon and Savernake. It only touches the South Western system at its southern extremity. Are you going to deprive the Group system of all the benefits which will come from grouping by having a railroad right across the area which another group is to develop and in which it will be enabled to effect very considerable economies? The representative of the Ministry of Transport spoke strongly on this point in the Committee upstairs. He said if you are going to introduce such a system as that you will strike a serious blow at the benefits and advantages which are expected to accrue from grouping. The Minister also said that where you get a small individually-owned com- pany like this running right through the territory of another company it is better to link it up with that company. If this line goes to the Great Western Company to develop there are immense possibilities in the way of increased facilities for the public in the future. The Great Western system will be in a far better position to effect economies, to develop the area, and to increase public facilities than either of the other companies. The arguments against this Amendment must be obvious to everyone, and in the interests of economy and efficiency I would ask the House to reject it. The position of the company will not be affected in any way, because the facility Clauses will guard the interests both of the Midland and of the South Western.
I confess that I am in a little difficulty in dealing with this Amendment. If my recollection serves me accurately, it was moved in Committee as a manuscript Amendment by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton), and we did the best we could, in the circumstances, and at that short notice, to raise the objections to it. My hon. and gallant Friend on that occasion suggested that this railway should be transferred to the North Western group. That matter was discussed at some length, and the Minister took part in it as well as myself. On the Order Paper to-day, however, my hon. and gallant Friend has put down an Amendment to transfer the line to the Southern group. He did not happen to be in his place when that Amendment was called, but he now says, "It is quite true that I wanted it transferred to the North Western group; it is quite true that I was going to move to transfer it to the Southern group; but I am prepared now to suggest that it should be transferred to the new group as to which I have an Amendment later on the Paper." In other words, he would like it to be transferred anywhere and to any company except the Great Western.
No, that is not a fair argument.
I am sorry if my hon. and gallant Friend does not consider that to be fair comment.
The whole argument is that the railway is a junction line, a connecting link between the Midland and the South Western, and the principle of this Amendment could be equally well preserved by transferring it to the Midland Railway or to whichever group included the Midland Railway.
I am sorry if I have misrepresented my hon. and gallant Friend or his Amendment, but the fact remains that there are at least three—or, as I now gather, four—possible proposals for transferring this railway from the Western Group, in which it clearly is geographically, to some other group, though for what object or purpose I am not quite clear. If it is a question of facilities for Southampton, I would invite the House to give full weight to the importance of Clause 34 of the Bill. I will not trouble the House by going into that Clause in detail, but it does provide in the fullest possible manner that all existing facilities shall be continued, and that companies which have already been running their trains over other companies' lines shall be allowed to do so. Therefore, there will be no diminution of traffic over this line to Southampton. I am unable to appreciate the reasons which lead my hon. and gallant Friend to attach importance to this Amendment, and I am unable to advise the House to accept it.
I feel very strongly that the Bill is not drawn perfectly in this respect. I am not going to vote for my hon. and gallant Friend's Amendment, but it appears to me that the arguments which have been used are not correct. This railway may or may not be a joint line. If it were a joint line the Midland would, I presume, be able to keep it, but, nevertheless, the counties in the Midlands have looked upon this route as a necessary route to Southampton. It may be true that there are running powers and agreements to protect that traffic, but in the main the principle which has been laid down, and which the Parliamentary Secretary has enunciated and defended this evening, namely, that it is in the district of the Western Group, sounds plausible. But, after all, if you look at the North Western Group, you will find that there are a very large number of lines crossing its territory which are owned by other companies, and they can work and develop them perfectly well, as could the North Western or South Western in this case without any real detriment to the district. At the same time, I do not feel that it would be right to vote for this Amendment, but I feel that there has been a great deal of misapprehension in the arguments used with regard to it.
I only rise because I think that the Parliamentary Secretary was not at all fair to the hon. and gallant Member who moved this Amendment. The whole case is that this railway was originally built for the purpose of giving an alternative route between Southampton and the Midland and Northern Counties, and the whole object, as I understand it, of the Amendment, and of the various alternatives to which the Parliamentary Secretary has referred, is simply that the line should be associated with and form part of the Midland system, whatever group the Midland may go into. That is the whole point. The several possibilities refer to the Midland Railway itself, and consequently apply to this line. The argument that it would upset the territorial picture of the Great Western is entirely ridiculous. This line has been properly described as a bridge from the Midland system to the South Coast, and for that reason, if the grouping system is to be carried out under this Bill with due regard to the needs of traffic and to the services to be run by the amalgamated companies, there is no sound argument to be advanced against including this line with the Midland system. It cannot make any difference to the Ministry which group it goes into, and all the weight of argument, except that advanced by the Great Western Railway Company itself, is in favour of this line going with the Midland line. I hope, therefore, that the Ministry even now, or, at any rate, in the other House, will repent of its decision, and will allow this line to be grouped with the system with which it is most properly in contact.
As the House does not appear to be inclined to accept the Amendment, and as the attendance, at the moment, is rather thin, I would, in order to save time, ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Further Amendments made: In paragraph 2, column 3, leave out the words "the Rhymney Railway Company."
Leave out the words "the Taff Vale Railway Company."—[ Mr. Neal. ]
I beg to move, in paragraph 2, column 3, to leave out the words "the Tanat Valley Light Railway Company."
This is not, strictly speaking, consequential upon the Amendment previously agreed to, because this particular railway has been already purchased by the Cambrian Railway Company, and has, therefore, ceased to exist separately.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in paragraph 2, column 3, after the word "Company" ["The West Somerset Railway Company"], to insert the words "the Wirral Railway Company."
The object of this Amendment is to remove the Wirral Railway from the North Western and Midland Group, in which it now appears, and to place it in the Western Group. I understand that the Wirral Railway Company was never consulted as to the group in which it should be placed, and that it is strongly opposed to the proposal now in the Bill. It desires that it should be placed under the Western Group, and I understand that the Mersey Dock and Harbour Board are also in favour of that proposal. It is scarcely necessary to point out that the Great Western Railway has the major interest in the Dee peninsula, which, I would remind the House, the Wirral Railway serves. Under these conditions it seems hardly reasonable that the Great Western should be absolutely cut away from the Dee peninsula, as it would be if the arrangement stood as now proposed.
I beg to second the Amendment. I may say that this railway, which works entirely in my own district, has not approached me with regard to this matter, so that I feel free to advocate the proposed change from the point of view of one who knows the district well. This small railway goes a distance of seven or eight miles, and it is now going to be absorbed by one of other of the great companies. I look forward to its absorption with great pleasure, for I think it is capable of considerable improvement. For many years past—in fact, from the time when railways were first built—the bulk of the lines in the Wirral Peninsula have been jointly owned by the Great Western and the London and North Western, and they have carried on their business in a very satisfactory manner. The War, however, brought about a change in the way in which the railways approached the district, and the London and North Western, either by inclination or by the orders of the Ministry of Transport, devoted its line chiefly to the Liverpool traffic, all passengers to the Wirral Peninsula being asked to travel as far as possible by the Great Western Railway. Now that the War is over, the London and North Western do not give the district the same good service that they used to do. It is true that they maintain their connections, but you cannot run from Euston into the Wirral Peninsula with the same facility as before; you have to change at Crewe, and perhaps at Chester as well. Therefore, from the point of view of the passenger who may have luggage, the London and North Western is almost ruled out for traffic in the Wirral Peninsula. The Great Western has served the district fairly well, but it does not give as good a train service as the North Western used to give. Perhaps, however, if the Great Western gave the matter a little attention, they might expedite the service considerably, and I would appeal to them to do so. If they did that, it would give us this advantage, that the traffic to and from the district would tend to go willingly into the hands of the Great Western Railway. I cannot see why a company which is leaving thé district, and which is not tending to do as well as it used to do, like the North Western, should be given a preferential right in this matter. If it is given to one company, it will be a great grievance to the other, but certainly, if it is given to the North Western, which seems to be retiring from the district, it would be a great and just grievance to the Great Western Company, which has possibilities of further development in that area. A junction made by the Great Western Railway with the Wirral Railway would go through the Mersey Tunnel and would thereby give it the possibility of carrying its passengers from the West of England into Liverpool under cover, which they cannot do at present, for all their south country passengers have to go across the River Mersey. What we ask is really a reasonable request. We would rather, for the sake of peace and quietness, have the line made a joint undertaking, and if a form of words could be found now, or if the hon. Gentleman would like to think it over and have the words inserted in the House of Lords, perhaps it would save a certain soreness of feeling between these two great companies which we do not wish to bring about at all. But if it is absolutely essential that the Wirral Railway should be handed over to one or other of the great companies, I submit that my friends and myself have made out a strong case why the Great Western Railway should get it rather than the North Western.
The hon. Member has said he is indifferent whether this line is made into a joint line or is transferred to the Western Group, but the Amendment he and his friends have put down is for the taking away of the line from the North Western and Midland Group and its transfer to the Great Western, and it is on that basis that we must discuss it. This line touches the Western Group at its very northern extremity. On the other hand, it is in the middle of the North Western and Midland territory and so, if there is anything in the territorial argument which we heard on the preceding Amendment, you cannot possibly take this line away from the North Western and Midland Group. As the Bill is drawn, the Wirral Line is given, I think rightly, to the group to which it naturally belongs. If all the lines are to reach out and go further and further and wherever they touch an extremity are to ask to go further still, it is the end of territorial grouping. If this Amendment were accepted, the Midland and North Western Group could claim any line they touch, they could claim the Hull and Barnsley absolutely, and so I am not quite sure that if the same argument was applied all round, the Midland and North Western Group would gain. But the fact that it is included in a group does not mean that all through services are destroyed. The Seconder of the Amendment quite rightly laid stress on certain through connections with the Great Western line. Clause 74 preserves all running powers which are in existence and so you must not assume that when the Wirral Company is obtained by the North Western and Midland Group all advantage is taken away from the Western Group. All the through connections that exist now will be protected by Clause 74. I hope the Minister will resist the Amendment. The line is absolutely in the territory of the North Western and in no one else's.
Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman give any reason why the company in question, and also the Mersey Dock and Harbour Board, are so anxious for the alteration?
I am not in the confidence of the Mersey Board.
This little railway, which is less than 13 miles in length, is of a somewhat exceptional character. It does not link up with any of the companies which can be grouped under the Bill. It is connected at both ends with the joint line commonly known as the Birkenhead joint, which, I believe, is jointly owned, and the capital is provided by the North Western and the Great Western. So from that point of view there would seem to be an equal claim to this bit of line in either company, and it has been the hope of my right hon. Friend that some arrangement might be come to between the companies concerned and the Great Central, who are also interested in the connection which the line makes, under which the differences might be adjusted. I understand what the promoters of the Amendment really desire is that the line should become joined to the two companies, the North Western and Great Western, but that cannot be done under this Bill. If it could be done it would seem to be a solution of the problem, and there would be nothing that I know of to hinder the joint company promoting legislation to make this a part of their joint undertaking. I do not pretend to prophesy with what result they would come to Parliament with that object, but I am advised that it is quite impossible within this Bill to say, you shall transfer a company to an existing company, which has not applied for it, and which is outside the grouping system of the Bill.
I think I am entitled to say that if you give this railway to the Great Western, as proposed in the Amendment, they are quite willing to approach the North Western to make it a joint undertaking.
Between approaching and agreement there is a very great gap. The reasons I gave in resisting the previous Amendment apply equally to the present case. They have been re-stated by the hon. and gallant Member for Durham (Major Hills), and I am sorry I am not able to comply with the wish of the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment.
Amendment negatived.
Death of Mr. T. Wintringham, M.P
I beg to move "That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned."
I have just learned that our colleague the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. T. Wintringham) has died within the precincts of the House. In accordance with precedent, and as a mark of respect, I make this Motion.
As the representative of the party in the House to which our hon. Friend belonged, may I, on their behalf—and I am certain that I can speak on behalf of the wife and relatives of my late hon. Friend—express appreciation of the token of respect and regard which the Leader of the House has paid to the memory of our late colleague, and the mark of respect which he has shown by moving the Adjournment of the House? It is only in accord with the well-known kindly sympathies of my right hon. Friend. I would add on behalf of those of us who were more closely associated with Mr. Wintringham that we have learned not only to respect, but also to share with those who knew him better and longer that measure of affection which he has created in all phases of his honoured life. He has not been very long a Member of this House, but in that brief time he has shown that, given the opportunity and experience, he would have developed into one of the most useful Members of this Parliament that the Legislature would have known. We all of us tender our most respectful sympathies to those of his immediate family circle, and to the constituency, without regard to party, which he has so honourably represented in this House.
I should like to associate the whole of my colleagues of the Labour party in thanking the Government for the action of my right hon. Friend in moving the Adjournment of the House—an action which is characteristic of the right hon. Gentleman. I also desire to associate myself with my right hon. Friend (Sir D. Maclean) in his graceful and fitting tribute to one of his colleagues. It is very sad that we have to refer to the death of a colleague who was a Member of this House, and that regret is aggravated when we know that it can be truly said that he died in harness. Our sympathy goes out to the widow and family, and we can only say that while she has lost a good partner, we have lost a good colleague, and one whom we had learned to respect.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill, as amended { in Standing Committee A and in Standing Committee B ) to be further considered To-morrow.
Adjournment
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-two Minutes before Nine o'clock.