Skip to main content

Commons Chamber

Volume 146: debated on Tuesday 9 August 1921

House of Commons

Tuesday, August 9, 1921

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Taf Fechan Water Supply Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),

Consideration, as amended, deferred till this evening at a quarter-past Eight of the clock.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Cardiff Extension) Bill (by Order),

Read the Third time, and passed.

Vatican, British Envoy

I beg to present a Petition from 25,773 persons in Lancashire praying for the withdrawal of the British representative at the Vatican.

East India (Councils)

1. "Address for Return ordered showing, province by province, for the current calendar year the cases (if any) in which the governors of governors' provinces have found it necessary to disregard or modify decisions of their Legislative Councils under the provisions of the following Sections of the Government of India Act, and Rules under the Act, namely:

Sections 72 (c) (3), 72 D (2) (a) or (6), 72 D (6), 72 E, and 81;

Rule 22 (2) of the Legislative Council Rules;

with similar particulars for action by the Governor-General in relation to the Indian Legislature under corresponding provisions of the Act and Rules."—[Colonel Wedgwood.]

Oral Answers to Questions. India

Questions

Anti-British Propaganda

asked the Secretary of State for India whether anti-British propaganda has been organised from the States of Travancore and Cochin, and developed in the British district of Malabar; and, if so, whether such action has been stopped by the Durbars concerned?

I have no information to this effect, but am making inquiries.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether a Mr. Gandhi recently organised a bonfire of British-made clothing in Bombay; what was his object; whether a meeting was subsequently held; how many people were present; and who were the speakers?

I gather that a bonfire was made of imported cloth in Bombay on 1st August. I have received as yet no official account of the occurrences.

Can the right hon. Gentleman answer the latter part of the question: whether a meeting was held and who were the speakers?

May we take it that the accounts in the newspapers are substantially correct, and, if so, how are the Ali brothers carrying out the undertaking given to the Viceroy?

German Indemnity

asked the Secretary of State for India whether any decision has been reached as regards the share of German indemnity due to India?

It has been agreed at the Imperial Conference that India shall receive l·2 per cent of the total share to be received by the British Empire of the reparation payment to be made by Germany under the Treaty of Versailles. This at par represents £17,400,000 sterling.

Women Suffrage, Bombay and Madras

asked the Secretary of State for India whether the Legislative Councils of both Madras and Bombay have voted for women suffrage; whether this change in the franchise is being or will be embodied in the new registers; and whether, as soon as the new registers are prepared, the change will be followed by a dissolution of these two councils?

If Press reports as regards Bombay (from which I have not yet received an official report) be correct, the answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, the rules require the change to be embodied (not necessarily immediately) in new rolls, but ordinarily the rolls hold good for three years from the date of their first publication unless the local Government choose to prescribe a shorter period. The dissolution of a Legislative Council before the expiry of its normal period of existence is a matter for the Governor to decide upon, and I have no information that the Governors will think it necessary to dissolve the present Councils on this account.

Reverse Council Bills

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that the loss in the sale of reverse council bills has so far amounted to 35 crores on transactions of 82½ crores (£55,000,000); why bills to this extent were sold without public competitive tender; whether he is aware that the council rate of pence per rupee exceeded the market rate by several pence and thus greatly enriched persons to whom the council bills were allotted; whether he is aware that Indian importers now refuse to meet bills drawn by Manchester merchants at current rates of exchange and purport to justify such refusal on these grounds; and if he will try to fix the responsibility for these financial errors?

The 35 crores mentioned in the first part of the question represents approximately the difference between the rupee equivalent of the sterling drafts sold, taking exchange at 15 rupees to the pound, and the rupee receipts from the sales. For the reason given in my reply of the 18th July, the sum cannot be regarded as loss due to the sale of reverse drafts, and it must also be remembered that in the period prior to the sales remittances from India to England on Government account have been effected at rates of exchange considerably higher than 1s. 4d., these, in fact, ranging up to 2s. 4d. As regards the second and third parts of the question, the system of sale was based, as stated in my reply on the 18th July, on the recommendations of the Currency Committee. During the period of the sales differences between the market rate of exchange and the rate at which the drafts were offered would have enabled allottees of the drafts to dispose of their exchange at a profit. As regards part 4 of the question I am sending to the hon. and gallant Member a copy of the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Keighley on the 16th March.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the India Office has any statistics showing who made profits by reselling these bills, and to what extent profits were made?

I suppose it is known to whom the reverse bills were sold in the first instance?

British Officers (Chargers)

asked the Secretary of State for India whether the British officers serving with the Royal Artillery in India have to purchase two chargers; whether he is aware that in Great Britain an officer similarly serving is provided with a charger at the public expense; whether he is aware that, although officers serving in India are allowed to purchase their chargers from the Government at concession rates by instalments, even when these animals have been fully paid for, the purchasers are not allowed to resell their chargers except to the Government for five years; and whether, in view of the great hardship inflicted upon officers who have adopted the Army as a professional career, he will take steps to have this hardship and many others of a similar character, such as the compulsory purchase of oat-crushing machines at the officers' expense, removed at the earliest possible opportunity?

The answer to the first three parts of the question is in the affirmative. Various concessions regarding purchase and upkeep of chargers have just been introduced by the Government of India, and I do not see my way, in present circumstances, to suggest that further privileges should be granted. I can see no hardship in requiring that a charger bought from Government for less than market value should not be sold, except to Government, for five years. I have no information regarding the purchase of oat-crushing machinery. If my hon. and gallant Friend will give me particulars of what he has in mind I will make inquiries.

Army Reductions

asked the Secretary of State for India if he will state what was the number of squadrons of Indian cavalry allotted to the various provinces of India for the purpose of internal security under the new scheme for the reduction of the Indian Army; what was the number allotted for this purpose prior to the War; and whether any of the local Governments have expressed dissatisfaction with the amount of cavalry allotted to them for internal security under the new scheme and are opposed to the proposed reductions?

No representations from local governments expressing dissatisfaction with the numbers of cavalry allotted to their provinces for internal security have reached me, nor am I aware that any have intimated that they are opposed to the reductions in that arm. I regret I am unable to give the disposition by provinces of cavalry allotted to internal security This is a matter for the Government of India to decide, with the advice of the Commander-in-Chief.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the number allotted to the whole of India?

I am afraid I cannot do that without notice. I cannot trust my memory for the figure. Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will put down a question.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that his assurance of the 23rd March last, that no further reductions would be made in the Indian Army pending the final decision of the Sub-Committee of Imperial Defence, was taken in India to mean that no further reductions would be made from that date, whereas it is now being interpreted to mean that no further reductions would be made beyond those already sanctioned by him on that date; and will he state which of these interpretations is correct and, if the latter, what were the reductions he had already sanctioned prior to the 23rd March?

I am not aware to whom in India the hon. and gallant Member is referring, but I can assure him that the Government of India have never taken my reply to his question of 23rd March to mean anything but that no further reductions would take place beyond those already sanctioned. If the hon. and gallant Member will refer to my reply on the 23rd February, he will see it clearly stated how many regiments of cavalry and battalions of infantry it was proposed to maintain.

asked the, Secretary of State for India, how many British officers of each rank of the Indian Army it is estimated will have to be discharged as surplus to requirements owing to the proposed reductions; and what provision is to be made for these officers to enable them to start life afresh?

I am in communication with the Government of India, but regret that I am not yet in a position to answer the question.

Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to give a reply before the end of the Session?

Elections

asked the Secretary of State for India whether, in the elections to the provincial councils in India, less than 1,500,000 persons went to the poll in districts having a population of about 240,000,000 and a qualified electorate of about 5,500,000, while in the elections for the Indian Legislative Assembly only 180,000 electors out of approximately 1,000,000 qualified voters actually voted; whether many of the voters who did vote were unable by illiteracy to differentiate between the candidates, many of whom were represented on the polling cards by pictures of goats, elephants, and donkeys; and whether he proposes to take steps to secure more adequate representation on the new council of Indian landowners and merchants in place of the existing preponderance of Indian lawyers?

For accurate figures in regard to the elections, I would refer my hon. Friend to the Return presented to Parliament in April, of which I will send him a copy. As regards the second part of the question, many of the voters were, of course, illiterate, and a system of symbols to assist voters to record their votes correctly was tried successfully in one province. As regards the last part, my information is that landowners (many of whom are also lawyers) as a whole have secured large representation, and that the same observations apply to commercial interests. I would refer my hon. Friend in this connection to the recommendation made by the Joint Select Committee on Clause 41 of the Government of India Bill, 1919, in regard to a future revision of the franchise. I will send him a marked copy of their Report.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the figures of the recent elections in India clearly show that the broad-minded and impartial rule of the British Rajah has not been replaced by popular Government, but by the Government of an oligarchy which by no means represents the people of India?

That is a debating point. Of course, if we could get a wholly satisfactory electorate in India, one of the main obstacles to complete self-government would be removed.

Is it not a fact that there is about 45 per cent. of lawyers in all these Provincial Councils?

I cannot endorse that statement offhand, but I would invite my hon. and gallant Friend to com-nare other Legislatures.

Ex-Service Men

Re-Employment

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Private C. E. Greening, No. 5172320, Gloucester Regiment, and Private A. Bottrill, No. 5174941, Gloucester Regiment, both of whom were called up for service during the recent emergency and have now been demobilised, are refused re-employment by the employers with whom they were working when the emergency arose; that Mr. Charles Cooke, of No. 1, Cambray, Cheltenham, refused to take Private Greening back on demobilisation and told him to go to the employment exchange; that Private Bottrill was refused re-employment on demobilisation by his former employer, Mr. Oscar Harmer, of Dalhousie, Spencer Park, Coventry; and whether he can take any action in the matter?

Representations have been made in both of these cases to the employers, and I am awaiting a reply in the case of Private Greening. As regards Private Bottrill, in view of the explanation which I have received from his former employer, Mr. Oscar Harmer, I am not prepared to take any further action.

War Office

asked the Secretary of State for War if ex-service men are being discharged from the various Departments under his control in favour of those who have not served in the War; and, if not, is every effort being made to employ ex-service men in preference to those who have not served?

No, Sir. Every possible endeavour is being made to retain ex-service men in preference to those who have not served. Any exceptions are due to the necessity of retaining specially qualified men in certain posts.

Does the right hon. Gentleman draw any distinction between ex-service men who have served overseas and those who have not served overseas?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a large number of women are still employed in various Departments of the War Office and a large number of ex-service men cannot find employment, and will he have these cases scrutinised with a view to utilising the services of these ex-service men in lieu of women?

I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that every endeavour is made to give employment to ex-service men in preference to others. There is a large number of women employed, but a great many of them are engaged on work in connection with winding up, and they cannot be replaced.

Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give consideration to these men, and to the fact that they are able to carry out the work which is carried out by women?

Pee-War Offences

asked the Prime Minister whether there are men in Government employment who have served for several years in His Majesty's forces in France and overseas during the Great War who are still being punished by having money deducted from their salaries in consequence of having been guilty of some breach of discipline or departmental regulations committed prior to the War; and, if this is the case, whether His Majesty's Government can see their way to treat these ex-service men's pre-War misconduct as having been purged by their subsequent war service and extend such clemency towards them as will prevent their continuing to suffer this punishment?

Disciplinary questions of this nature are for the consideration of the head of the Department concerned, and a particular case in any Department should be taken up with that Department. I understand, however, that the particular case the hon. Member has in mind has already been very fully considered by the Postmaster-General.

Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that I did not ask about any particular case. What I asked was whether His Majesty's Government and the authorities could not take into account the advisability of considering the cases of men who served, and who risked their lives for four years at the front, and whether that should not be regarded as wiping out offences committed before the War broke out?

In answer to the wider question, I am afraid I have nothing to add to the answer to an exactly similar question which I gave to the hon. Gentleman several days ago.

Ministry of Pensions

asked the Minister of Pensions if ex-service men are being discharged from the various Departments under his control in favour of those who have not served in the War; and, if not, is every effort being made to employ ex-service men in preference to those who have not served?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The policy of the Ministry is to give preference to ex-service men.

Is the hon. and gallant Member aware that many Members are receiving letters from men who have been the victims of the policy of being discharged before these people who have not served in the War? It is going on.

We are asserting our principle. I will give my hon. and gallant Friend the example of the Glasgow Local War Pensions Committee, where we are refusing to allow the appointment of two men who are not ex-service men, and insisting on the appointment of ex-service men.

British Army

Recruiting

asked the Secretary of State for War the number of men who joined the Army between 4th August, 1914, and 24th May, 1916; and how many were enrolled between 25th May, 1916, and 11th November, 1918?

I would refer the hon. Member to the figures contained on page 60 of the General Annual Reports on the British Army for the period from 1st October, 1913, to 31st September, 1919 (Command Paper 1193). I regret that figures for the exact periods mentioned in the question are not available, but the number of men who joined the Army between August, 1914, and the end of May, 1916, was 2,993,482, and the number who were enrolled and joined the Colours between June, 1916, and 11th November, 1918, was 1,977,420.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say if the figure given by his Majesty in his letter of 26th May, 1916, stating that 5,041,000 men voluntarily enlisted is not correct?

I must have notice of any reference to a particular letter. I do not carry it in my mind.

Royal Artillery Commander, Gibraltar

asked the Secretary of State for War whether a full colonel has recently been sent out to Gibraltar as commander, Royal Artillery, there in addition to the lieutenant-colonel who previously had efficiently performed the duties of the post; whether the new appointment is intended to be permanent; whether, before it was made, the military authorities at Gibraltar were consulted; if so, what was their opinion as to the need for the additional officer; what is the cost in pay and allowances of the new commander and his staff; whether the duties of the new office entail only half-an-hour's work a day; and on what grounds, in view of the reduction of artillery strength to 600 and the urgent need for economy, the new appointment can be justified?

A Colonel has been sent out to Gibraltar as Commanding Royal Artillery, an appointment which, except for a brief period whilst the status of the appointment was under discussion, has always been held by a Major-General with a Brigade Major. The Colonel has no staff officer. The reduction was decided on in the interests of economy. The appointment is a permanent one, and has been decided upon after hearing the views of the local military authorities. The cost is £1,594 a year, as compared with £3,575 for a Major-General and Brigade Major, which was formerly the staff for artillery. Although the strength of Royal Artillery personnel at Gibraltar has temporarily been reduced, their training covers a wider field, whilst no change has been made in the armament of the fortress, for the efficiency of which the Officer Commanding Royal Artillery is responsible.

Did the local authorities agree? What was their opinion as to the necessity for this additional officer?

There is no question of an additional officer, but of the substitution of an officer of lower rank for an officer of higher rank out of which a saving of over £2,000 a year is made.

May we have the opinion of the local authorities as to the necessity for an additional officer?

No. All consideration was given to any local representations in making the decision which I have announced.

Do the tax payers in Gibraltar or the taxpayers in this country pay the salary?

No. The hon. Member has no right to make any such statement.

Territorial Force

asked the Secretary of State for War the number of recruits who have enlisted in the Territorial Force; and how many more are required to complete the establishment?

It is estimated that the approximate strength of the Territorial Force on 29th July was 6,700 officers and 117,000 other ranks. These figures, however, are subject to revision on the receipt of returns for 1st August, which will be available shortly. As shown on page 24 of Army Estimates, 1921–22, the establishment of the Territorial Force (excluding permanent staff) is 10,542 officers and 205,499 other ranks.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in the present state of finance, the retention in the peace establishment of the Territorial Force of infantry brigade and divisional artillery commanders is justified; whether there are four of these officers, each with a staff officer, in each division; whether they are relieved of all work by the county associations; whether their duties are extremely light and could well be performed by the existing divisional staffs with suitable assistance during the 15 days' annual training; and whether an economy of £150,000 per annum would be effected by their abolition?

There are three infantry brigade commanders with brigade majors and an officer commanding Royal Artillery with a brigade major for each division. They are not relieved of all administrative work by county associations, and have a great deal of administrative work to do. If these staffs could be abolished, as suggested, there would be an approximate saving of £150,000 per annum on the 14 divisions and two cavalry brigades. This is one of the possible economies which is being considered.

Is it not better that the Territorial Force should be trained under the officers who commanded them in the War?

Cadet Force

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the fall in the strength of cadet battalions throughout the country; whether the cadet movement is an essential element in the maintenance of an effective home defence force; and will he consider the possibility of linking cadets and Territorials more closely by forming the present cadet battalions into fourth companies of Territorial battalions, to be composed of lads between the ages of 15 and 18 years?

My hon. and gallant Friend is mistaken. The strength of the cadet force has increased during the past few years from 40,000 in 1915 to approximately 120,000 this year. The force is primarily for the development of lads into good citizens, especially by means of games and competitions rather than to train them as soldiers. The units are, however, affiliated to Territorial Army units for the purpose of receiving elementary instruction, and are inspected by commanders of the Territorial Army, and in this way a sympathetic association is encouraged and maintained between the cadet force and the Territorial Army.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I know of a battalion which is only 24 strong at the present moment?

Army of Occupation (German Wives)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in each of the cases of the 138 non-commissioned officers and men and the seven officers serving with the Army on the Rhine who have married German wives, the consent of the commanding officer was obtained; and whether, apart from these cases, there is any instance of the consent of the commanding officer having been withheld from any such proposed marriage?

As I have explained to the hon. Member in answer to previous questions, the arrangements made with the German Government require that an officer or soldier of the Army of the Rhine who wishes to marry a German woman should furnish his commanding officer with a copy of his birth certificate and a statutory declaration as to his legal capacity to marry for transmission to the competent German registrar. I assume that in each of the cases referred to in the question this procedure was properly carried out and the necessary documents forwarded to the German registrar by the officer's or man's commanding officer. Whether there have been any cases in which the documents have been withheld by a commanding officer owing to their not being in order or for any other reason, I am unable to say without reference to the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, British Army of the Rhine.

With great respect, was not my question to the right hon. Gentleman whether, when these marriages between British soldiers and German women take place, the consent of those soldiers' commanding officers is required; whether in any cases such consent has been withheld; and, if not, how does the right hon. Gentleman reconcile that with the declaration, made on behalf of the War Office from that Bench, that the policy of the War Office is to discourage such marriages?

It is not possible for the War Office to prevent these marriages. As regards cases in which consent has been refused, I cannot find that out without reference to the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief on the Rhine. If the hon. Member wants that done, I can find out whether any commanding officer has refused his consent.

Are these women given separation allowances? [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"]

Court-Martial (Private Daniel Rowe)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the case of Private Daniel Rowe, who was convicted in November last by field general court-martial of fraudulent conversion of goods whilst manager of the Rhine Army reception camp canteen at Cologne and sentenced to six months' hard labour; whether he is aware that no particular goods were mentioned in the charge and no dates given of the alleged offences; that, after serving four months of the sentence, he was notified that it had been discovered that no particular goods were deficient and that the conviction could not stand, and was thereupon released; and that the only satisfaction offered him by the War Office is the amount of his back pay, allowance, and gratuity to which he would have been in any case entitled but for his unjust conviction; and whether, in these circumstances, it is proposed to give the unfortunate man some adequate compensation for the wrong which he has suffered?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part, it is the fact that no particular goods were mentioned in the charge, but the dates between which it was alleged that the conversion took place were given. With regard to the third part, it is the fact that after the accused had served four months' imprisonment he was released and subsequently informed that the conviction had been quashed; the conviction was quashed on the advice of the Judge Advocate-General after a further investigation of the books and accounts, which were of a very complicated nature, had taken place. With regard to the fourth part, it is not usual to give compensation in such cases, but I will look into the circumstances and see whether they justify exceptional treatment.

Does it take the Judge Advocate-General four months to ascertain whether a sentence in a particular case should be confirmed or not, and does the right hon. Gentleman not consider it a great hardship that a man should be confined to prison pending the Judge Advocate-General's rather lengthy examination of the case?

I do think it was very hard on this man, because when the circumstances were reviewed the conviction was quashed. The ordinary case does not take anything like four months for review. This case happened to be reviewed at length because there were doubts and many things had to be examined. I think four months was too long.

The charge was one of improper conversion of goods. Does not the release of the man show that no goods were ever wrongfully converted?

My hon. Friend, from his experience, may be able to answer that question.

Should not the inquiry into complicated accounts have taken place before the trial, and not after?

Would it not have been possible to have released the man under open arrest, pending the confirmation of the sentence?

Government Staffs and Offices

War Office

asked the Secretary of State for War in which Departments of the War Office reductions may be anticipated in next year's Estimates?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answers given by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd August in reply to questions regarding reductions of expenditure generally.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Financial Secretary said nothing about reductions? The question asked him, as Secretary of State for War, is what reductions he is going to make, and why cannot he reply to it?

Because the question was fully covered in my hon. Friend's answers.

Post Office

asked the Postmaster-General how many in his Department were receiving a salary of £500 a year in June, 1914; and how many are receiving such a salary now?

Three hundred and eighty officers of the Post Office were receiving a salary of £500 a year or over in June, 1914. The present number of officers in receipt of such a salary is 427. Cost-of-living bonus is not included in these figures.

Business and Residential Premises

asked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, the number of London business and residential premises taken over for war purposes of which he still retains possession; and if it is intended to return these to their owners during the present year?

The number of business and residential premises retained in London is 23, or 2.2 per cent. of the number acquired for war purposes. It is hoped that 12 of the buildings retained will be surrendered during the present year, and the remainder early in 1922.

Public Trustee's Department

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how many women in the Department of the Public Trustee were receiving a salary of £500 a year in June, 1914; and how many are receiving such a salary now?

No women in the Department of the Public Trustee were receiving a salary of £500 per annum in June, 1914. At the present time 5 women receive emoluments inclusive of bonus in excess of £500 per annum. This number will be reduced by one on the 1st prox.

Civil Service Examinations

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if the Civil Service Commissioners would agree to make Manchester a centre for an examination to be held for girl typists' posts in the pensionable Civil Service, owing to the fact that a large number of girls in Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, and the North generally are anxious to sit, but cannot afford to risk the fares to London in addition to the fees, London at present being the nearest centre advertised?

I beg to refer to the answer which I gave to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Gorton Division of Manchester (Mr. Hodge) on the 2nd instant.

Wagons, Richboeough

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the goods trucks now at Richborough painted W.D. are the property of the Government; and, if so, to what use is it intended to put them?

I have been asked to reply. From the description given, the trucks referred to appear to be wagons of the covered Continental type. These are Government property, and, being surplus to Government requirements, are now under offer for sale.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, in addition to the trucks to which he alludes, there is a large number of open trucks? What use are they likely to be?

I am afraid that I have had a little difficulty in identifying the trucks from the not very adequate description given by the Noble Lord, but should he wish for information about any other sort of trucks, I should require notice.

If the hon. Gentleman does happen to hit off the right sort of trucks, will he say how long they have been there?

Questions

Rhodesia

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the reason for the delay in issuing the Buxton Committee Report on Northern Rhodesia; and when the Report may be expected?

The Report raised some difficult questions, and the necessity for giving full consideration to these matters before publication has been responsible for the delay. It is proposed to lay the report very shortly.

Emir of Nejd (Subsidy)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether there is any restriction on the use to which Ibn Saud, Emir of Nejd, puts the subsidy of £5,000 a month at present paid to him out of British funds; whether any restrictions on the arms traffic to Arabia are now in force whether there is a British representative at the court of this potentate; and whether any other European nation or the King of the Hedjaz is represented at the court?

The payment of the subsidy is subject to the conditions explained in my statement on the 14th June. The arms traffic in Arabia is limited by international agreement and by the local law of various territories adjacent to that country. There is at present with Ibn Saud no British representative, nor any representative of any other European Government, nor of the King of the Hedjaz, so far as I am aware.

What is to prevent this potentate from using the money to buy arms, and then to be in a strong position to make trouble with us? Is there any check at all?

It is paid in gold. The policy has been very carefully considered, and we had better leave it for the present to be carried out.

Kenya Colony (Labour Ordinances)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Compulsory Labour Ordinances in Kenya Colony provide for the industrial conscription of natives only; and whether, in due course, the provisions of these Ordinances will also be applied to Indians and whites alike who are unable to show that they have worked continuously for three months during the previous year?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. It is not proposed to take steps in the direction indicated in the second part. There is no reference to three months' continuous service in the Ordinances to which the hon. Member refers.

Cinematograph Films (Fire Regulations)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the great danger of fires which invariably accompanies the careless storage of cinematograph films, and seeing that it is a matter of great urgency that comprehensive regulations should be promptly effected for the safe storage of such films, he will act accordingly?

I mwould refer my hon. Friend to the answers which I gave on the 28th July to the hon. and gallant Members for Gateshead and Hexham. I quite recognise the urgency of the matter, and I hope it may be possible to deal with it next Session.

Scotland

Agricultural Education (Expenditure)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether institutions for higher agricultural education and research in Scotland have been called upon to reduce their Estimates by 20 per cent. or more in respect of all sums contributed by his Department?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Lord Advocate on the 14th instant to a question by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kincardine and Western Aberdeenshire.

Are we to take it that the right hon. Gentleman does not know what reductions he is proposing in his own sphere of action?

Medical Service, Benbecula

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that the medical officer for the Island of Benbecula has to live on the south side of the ford owing to the absence of a suitable dwelling house, and that, especially in winter, it is often dangerous and some times impossible to cross the ford to the island; and whether, in order to obviate the hardships and sufferings resulting from the difficulty of obtaining medical assistance, he will cause the Board of Health to provide a residence on the island out of the funds already granted by Parliament for such purposes?

I am aware of the facts as stated in the first part of this question. The duty of providing residences for parish medical officers does not rest on the Scottish Board of Health, whose powers are limited to granting such assistance from the Highlands and Islands (Medical Service) Fund in supplement of local contributions as, after reference to the Treasury, is considered proper in the circumstances of each case. The Parish Council of South Uist have been asked to consider whether they can prepare a scheme within the limits of expenditure laid down by the Treasury whereby they might provide a residence with the aid of a grant from the Fund.

Is my hon. Friend not aware that the medical service has been absorbed by the Board of Health? Is the Board taking any action to see that this provision is made?

The Board is in communication with the local authority in regard to this particular matter.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that I myself saw the Board's representative on that island 12 months ago, and, as far as I know, there is nothing done yet?

There have been considerable developments in the matter since 12 months ago.

Education Grants

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he publicly expressed the opinion that the education grants to Highland counties would amount to not less than 75 per cent. of approved expenditure; whether he is aware that the grants to the Inverness-shire education authority amount only to about 63 per cent., resulting in a largely-increased education rate; and whether he will provide additional grants so as to bring the payments from Imperial funds up to the level of 75 per cent., as obtains in more wealthy education areas in Scotland?

I do not know to what public statement of mine my hon. Friend refers in the first part of the question. If made, it had reference to the year 1919–20, when grants amounting to 75 per cent. of approved expenditure were paid to the education authorities of certain Highland counties, including Inverness-shire, in respect of that year. I am aware that in the case of Inverness-shire the considerably increased grants for the year 1920–21 amounted only to 63 per cent. of expenditure. I am not, however, prepared to disturb the distribution of grant which has already been made under the Minute of 30th June, 1920, and which was regarded as equitable by most of the education authorities in Scotland, including the Highland authorities. For the current year the grant to Inverness-shire, while no longer calculated on a percentage basis, will, in point of fact, exceed 75 per cent. of the estimated expenditure. According to the information at present available, it is not the case that education areas which may properly be described as more wealthy than Inverness-shire will receive grants equal to 75 per cent. of their expenditure.

Corn Production Acts (Repeal) Bill

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in the case where a standing crop is valued over to the incoming tenant at the conclusion of a lease, instructions will be given to the valuer to take into consideration payments to be made in respect of the crop to the incoming tenant under the Corn Production Acts (Repeal) Bill of this year?

I have no power to give instructions to valuers on the lines suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend. I would, however, remind him that there is in Section 3 (1) of the. Corn Production Act, 1917, a specific statutory direction such as he wishes, and I see no reason to doubt that it will be duly regarded when compensation comes to be fixed in the cases to which it applies.

Post Office

Trade Telegeams

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that unsigned telegrams were sent to various people from the Central Telegraph Office, London, on Wednesday 27th July, bearing the following words: Buy Shell motor lubricating oils to-day, every drop tells; does he possess powers to compel the senders of such telegrams to subscribe to the same their full name and address, taking into account the fact that the arrival of the telegram might cause a shock to anybody who is expecting news of some relative who is seriously ill; and, further, people living outside a telegram delivery radius in the country have to pay excess delivery fees on telegrams?

I am aware of the facts referred to; but I have no power to compel senders of telegrams to insert their full name and address in the text of a telegram for transmission and I think that such a requirement would be inexpedient.

EmployéS Dismissed

asked the Post master-General how many employés in the service of the postal telegraph service and of the Post Office telephone service, respectively, have been dismissed for in efficiency in the discharge of their duties during the past three years; and what is the percentage of such dismissals to the total number of employés in each service?

I will send my hon. Friend some figures relating to the telephone service in London. Statistics for the country as a whole could only be collected from the local records in each district, and I do not think the labour and expense involved in obtaining them would be justified. It would, in any event, be impossible to show the figures for the telegraph service separately, as a large number of the staff are employed on both postal and telegraph duties.

Were not figures given recently before the Select Committee on Telephones, and are they not available? In the event of any considerable nnmber of these men having been dismissed for inefficiency, as opposed to dishonesty, were they simply improvers or men on the establishment?

The figures which I propose sending to my hon. Friend are those submitted to the Select Committee. As to the second point, I will look into the matter.

Postage Rates (Printed Matter)

asked the Postmaster-General how much it would cost to send under two ounces of printed matter to any place in England by post; and for how much would the same matter be transmitted by the Post Office to any foreign place, however distant?

The postage on printed papers in the British Isles for a packet of under two ounces is one penny, and a packet of the same weight for transmission abroad would cost one halfpenny?

Does my right hon. Friend propose to rectify this discrimination in favour of foreign countries?

The hon. Member must not forget that this anomaly is the result of a concession which I made in response to pressure put upon me, both in this House and outside.

Subsidies (Steamship Companies)

asked the Post master-General if any subsidy is paid by his Department to any steamship companies for carrying British mails to and from India and Australia to this country; what amounts are paid yearly and to what steamship companies; and if any labour conditions are made a consideration of such payments; if any contracts have been made for a term of years; and, if so, for what period?

The contract with the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company provides for the payment of £295,000 a year for the conveyance out. and home of the India, Australia, and Far East mails. Since the 30th of June, 1917, however, the Australian and China sections have been temporarily excluded from the contract, and the payment has been modified accordingly. The contract contains no labour conditions, and, although its expiration was contemplated in 1915, the exigencies of war conditions have made it convenient to prolong its duration from year to year. No arrangement has yet been made to terminate this contract.

asked the Postmaster-General if any subsidy is paid by his Department to any steamship companies for carrying British mails to and from this country to the United States and. Canada; and what such amounts are paid yearly and to what steamship companies, and for what term of years any agreements have been entered into?

The White Star and the Cunard Steamship Companies each provide a weekly mail service to New York in return for annual payments respectively of £72,000 and £65,390. The contracts regulating these services are terminable as regards the White Star Line at 12 months' notice, and as regards the Cunard Company in 1927. There are no contracts governing the conveyance of mails to Canada, and payments are made on a weight basis.

Telephone Seevice

asked the Postmaster-General how far his Department has proceeded in the matter of testing any possible automatic registers of calls for the telephone; whether any devices in this connection are now being considered; and whether any particular invention has passed the requisite tests.

The Post Office has considered many suggested methods of registering telephone calls, some of which have been "automatic" in the sense that they do not call for any specific action on the part of the operator. None, however, has passed the requisite tests, and the experiments which have been made have not so far produced any device of this nature which appears likely to meet essential requirements satisfactorily.

Seeing that not one person in 10,000, among subscribers to the telephone, ever trusts the telephone accounts, would it not be at least kind if the right hon. Gentleman did his best to expedite this matter as much as possible?

Nobody would be more pleased than I if some method could be found of avoiding disputes as to the number of calls. The difficulty in the way is very largely one of expense. The system which we have adopted in this country is that adopted in America, and is, I believe, the most likely to give satisfaction of any which have yet been discovered.

Questions

National Workers' Committee

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the seditious articles published from time to time in the "Worker," the organ of the National Workers' Committee, and subsidised by funds supplied from Bolshevist sources; whether he has seen the article, in the issue of 18th June, written by Mr. Tom Barker, an alien South American; and whether he proposes to take any action to prosecute those responsible for this publication?

I have seen the articles referred to, but I do not propose to take any action with regard to them.

. Is this not another proof of the great necessity for doing everything possible to keep undesirable aliens out of this country?

Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise the fact that Mr. Thomas Barker is an alien?

National Expenditure (Treasury Circulae)

asked the Postmaster-General whether he has received the Treasury Circular of the 13th May?

The question could not have been more completely answered. Any further questions must go down on the Paper.

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to published statements giving particulars as to the Departments of State which have replied to the Treasury Circular and other information on this subject; whether this information was supplied from official sources; and, if so, why this information has not been given to the House?

This question was transferred to another Department, and there has been some hitch in the communications.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer which are the Government Departments that did not reply by 31st July last to the Treasury letter respecting economies in their expenditure?

Most of the answers that were not received on 31st July were sent in on the 1st or 2nd of August; and under the circumstances to specify the Departments which did not actually reply by 31st July would, I think, be needlessly invidious and indeed misleading.

May I ask my hon. Friend if all the Departments have sent in their replies now?

Can my hon. Friend say which Departments have not yet sent in replies?

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether his circular asking for a reduction in next year's Estimates applies to the Treasury; and, if so, what reductions he proposes to make?

Yes, Sir. I would remind the hon. Member that I am not able, for reasons already given, to make any statement in this connection about any other Department, and the same reasons apply with equal force in the case of the Treasury.

League of Nations

Vilna Frontier

asked the Prime Minister whether, in spite of the reference of the Vilna frontier dispute to the League of Nations, His Majesty's Government are still interested in the matter and have on the subject a considered policy; and why the reference of the boundary dispute to the League of Nations should delay the de jure recognition of Lithuania by this country?

The present policy of His Majesty's Government is to endeavour, as far as possible, to persuade the two disputants to accept as a real basis of discussion the draft scheme prepared by M. Hymans, and approved by the Council of the League of Nations. As regards the second part, I do not admit my hon. and gallant Friend's assumption.

Is it a fact that the Government have considered their policy on the Lithuanian question apart altogether from the policy of the League of Nations, whatever it may be?

Will the hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question, as to why there should be so much delay in the de jure recognition of Lithuania by this country?

Will not the reference of the dispute to the League of Nations inevitably delay a settlement?

Assembly (British Representatives)

asked the Prime Minister who is to be the third representative of this country at the Assembly of the League of Nations?

Yes, Sir. The Government has appointed the Right Hon. Sir James Rennell Rodd to be their third representative.

Is it satisfactory that all three representatives should be of the official class?

I do not quite know why the three representatives of His Majesty's Government on this occasion should not be as selected. The other two are Ministers, and this gentleman is a retired member of the Diplomatic Service who, I think, as his last post, held the position of British Ambassador in Rome.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the whole purpose of allowing three representatives was to enable real representation as far as possible to be given to the popular opinion of this country at the Assembly, and does he not consider that would be admirably discharged by my right hon. Friend the Member for the Gorbals Division of Glasgow (Mr. G. Barnes) who previously acted in this capacity?

I am making no criticism, and suggesting no criticism of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Gorbals Division of Glasgow, but it was never contemplated that the representatives appointed should be permanent representatives. Our representatives are appointed for each meeting. On this occasion, we thought it advisable to ask Sir James Rennell Rodd, and I am very glad to say he has been good enough to consent.

May we take this as a precedent, and assume that in the case of assemblies of the League of Nations in future, we are to have Government representatives solely on this body? [Mr. MOLES: "Send a Wee Free.']

Labour Conventions

asked the Prime Minister if he is yet able to make a statement in regard to discussions which have taken place bearing upon the Resolution recently forwarded to him from the Liverpool City Branch of the League of Nations Union expressing the opinion that the Conventions adopted at the International Labour Conference of the League, of Nations should be submitted to Parliament as the competent authority?

As I explained to my hon. Friend in reply to a question on the 23rd June, the point raised in the Resolution referred to in the question was dealt with fully by my right hon. Friend the Attorney-General in his speech of the 27th May. For further details as to the policy of the Government with regard to the International Labour Conventions, I would refer my hon. Friend to the Debate on the 1st July.

Questions

Nationality Law

asked the Prime Minister if he has received a copy of a Resolution from the Liverpool Council of Women Citizens calling upon the Government to instruct the delegates to the Imperial Conference to vote in favour of a Measure to provide that a woman on marriage with an alien shall not be deprived of her nationality against her will, but that she shall be given the same choice of nationality as a man, including the right to naturalise independently of her husband?

Yes, Sir. I have seen a copy of the Resolution referred to, but I cannot add anything to the answer given by the Prime Minister on the 14th July to questions by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Moss Side (Lieut.-Colonel Hurst).

Washington Conference

asked the Prime Minister whether a date has now been settled for the assembling of the Disarmament Conference at Washington?

The United States Government has not officially proposed any definite date.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say if it has yet been decided as to who is to compose the personnel?

Press Publications, Ireland

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware of any influence having been exercised, directly or indirectly, on behalf of the Government, or with the knowledge of the Government, to prevent news or criticism hostile to the present Irish policy of His Majesty's Government being published in the Press?

Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to supplement his meagre information by sending him some correspondence which, I think, will enlighten him this afternoon, with regard to criticisms of the Government which have not been printed? The paper in question replied that it is unable to print the information owing to the fact that—

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

Conviction, Mansfield

asked the Minister of Pensions whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Mr. Thomas Flowers, an ex-soldier, who was sentenced to one month's imprisonment at Mansfield, on Wednesday, 3rd August, on the ground that he had defrauded the Ministry of Pensions; whether he is aware that this man had been in receipt of a disability pension of 25s. per week, which was doubled on condition that he underwent further treatment in hospital, and that, being given a day's leave, he did not return to the hospital, but continued to draw the extra pension, his excuse being that he had already undergone nine operations and had become unnerved; whether it is a practice of the Ministry to offer to increase pensions if men will undergo operations, and, if so, under what legal authority they do so; and, in view of the hardship involved in this particular case, if he can ask the Home Secretary to remit this man's sentence forthwith?

During a course of hospital treatment which renders a man unable to provide for himself and his family, pension is suspended, and in lieu thereof special allowances are granted during the continuance of the treatment. In this case the man pleaded guilty to the charge that he and his family continued to draw allowances at the maximum rate for some weeks subsequent to the date on which he had absented himself from the hospital. I have been unable to find any record of the man having been operated upon since his discharge. It is not the practice to offer to increase a man's pension as an inducement to undergo an operation, and I may add that in no circumstances is a man's pension affected by his refusal of an operation. My right hon. Friend sees no reason for accepting the suggestion in the last part of the question.

Questions

Airships

asked the Secretary of State for Air what is the capital cost or value of all ships, material, etc., affected by the Government decision to scrap airships; what will be the estimated annual saving; what the probable sum will be that will be realised by the disposal of the ships, material, etc.; and whether any facilities will then exist for the handling of airships in the British Empire?

The original cost of existing British airships and airship material was approximately £1,575,000. This figure does not include the cost of accommodation. The annual saving under this head is estimated to be in the region of £250,000. But it must not be thought that this sum bears any relation to the expense which would be incurred if we continued to operate these airships. With regard to the third part of the question, the amount which may be realised by the disposal of the airships and airship material cannot at present be estimated within any approach to accuracy. It can be stated confidently, however, that the scrap value of the ships themselves is not large. With regard to the last part of the question, while the sheds and masts will not be manned, they will remain capable of being utilised at short notice.

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether the offer made by His Majesty's Government to British civilian firms to take over the airships, equipment, spares, and stores on terms approved by the Government still remains in force; and, if so, for how long?

The arrangement approved by the Conference of Prime Ministers, the terms of which were announced to the House by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, on Thursday last, makes it still possible for private firms to come forward with proposals, although conditions have somewhat altered, and the original time limit has now expired. No such proposal could now be accepted without previous reference to the Dominions.

When the hon. and gallant Gentleman says that the conditions have altered, does he mean that the conditions laid down by the Government have altered?

No, Sir. The hon. Member must not read that suggestion into my reply. The conditions have altered to the extent of the answer made by the Secretary of State for the Colonies last Thursday.

Income Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will cause to be printed on every demand note for Income Tax simple and concise directions as to the steps to be taken by payers of tax who desire to make a claim for the refund of tax paid in excess; and is he aware that, owing to the lack of such direction, many women of small incomes are unwilling or unable to obtain a refund of tax to which they are not liable?

I understand my hon. and gallant Friend to refer primarily to cases of persons with income taxed by deduction at the source as well as income in respect of which they are directly assessed. As regards these cases, the position is that particulars of the Income Tax abatements and allowances with directions for claiming them, are furnished, not with the demand notes, which are issued after the assessments have been made, but with the return forms, which are issued before the assessments are made, so that, so far as possible, taxpayers are called upon to pay only the net amounts of tax (if any) due from them. Moreover, where in such cases the taxpayer in connection with his return for direct assessment makes a statement of total income and claims abatement or allowances which, on balance, entitle him to a repayment of tax that repayment will—under arrangements made by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue—be made automatically without a formal claim. In cases where the whole of the income is taxed by deduction at the source, and there is no direct assessment upon the taxpayer, the course suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend would, generally speaking, do little or nothing to secure the object which he has in view, but I will consider whether any other steps could be usefully taken with that object.

Does the hon. Member think that what is printed on the Paper is sufficient?

If the hon. Member will consider the latter part of my answer, he will find it is very pertinent indeed.

I will certainly consider it, but I would call my hon. and gallant Friend's attention to the fact that it does not assist people to multiply printing on official forms.

When demands for payment of Income Tax are made, from which deductions have been made in respect of allowances, can the hon. Gentleman have it clearly shown on the form how the net figure at the end is made out, and not leave it to the public to have to inquire how the figure is made up?

I would not admit that that is the case—I do not think it is the case—but if there is a contention to that effect, I shall be very glad to consider it.

May I ask if it is not the universal practice to send in a demand for a fixed amount, without giving any particulars whatever as to how that figure is arrived at, to the great embarrassment and trouble of the public?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the difficulty experienced by persons whose income is below the level of Income Tax in obtaining a refund in the case of dividends paid to them free of Income Tax; and will he say what steps should be taken by such persons to recover the amount of the tax thus paid in error on their behalf?

I am not aware of the difficulty which my hon. and gallant Friend suggests. The persons to whom he refers should, like any others who are in a position to claim repayment of Income Tax, apply to the district inspector of taxes, who will furnish the appropriate form for the repayment claim and afford any assistance that may be necessary.

The hon. and gallant Member had better put any further question on the Paper.

Currency Notes

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of Treasury notes that have been issued; if any fresh issues are in contemplation; and, if so, to what amount?

I assume that the hon. and gallant Member is referring to currency notes. The currency note return (which is published weekly in the "London Gazette") shows the total issued up to 30th August, 1921, as £2,127,229,989 10s., of which £1,799,990,607 10s. have been cancelled or called in, leaving £327,239,382 in circulation. Fresh issues of notes are constantly being made either in replacement, or part replacement, of cancelled notes, or in order to meet the requirements of the banks for additional currency, but the tendency of late has been for the number of notes in circulation steadily to decrease, the amount of £327,239,382 outstanding on the 3rd instant comparing with £360,077,542 a year ago.

Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer bearing in mind, in regard to these huge issues of currency notes, that they are all repayable on demand in gold?

I am sure that that consideration is present in the mind of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Internal Debt

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state, in respect of the funded debt, what is its amount; and how many holders there are of stock in amounts below £100, below £1,000 and above £100; and below £10,000 and above £1,000, respectively?

Technically the term "funded debt" refers to consols and certain debts to the Banks of England and Ireland; the amount on 31st March, 1920, was about £315,000,000. Possibly, however, the hon. and gallant Member intends to refer to the Internal Debt other than Floating Debt. In that case, the amount on 31st March last was approximately £5,168,500,000. It is not possible to give the number of holders of Government stock, since one holder may hold stock on more than one account, and one account may be in the names of more than one holder. The number of accounts of Government securities (other than floating debt and bearer securities) is approximately 7,520,000. In the case of securities on the Post Office register (for which alone any such figures are readily available) the total number of accounts is 4,225,000 and the number of accounts under £100 is 3,515,000.

National Savings Certificates

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state, in respect of national war saving certificates, what is the total amount held; how many holders are there of amounts below £5; amounts below £25 and above £5; and amounts below £100 and above £25; and how many holders are there of £500?

Unit.

No. of Certificates issued.

Nominal Value.

Purchase Price.

£

£

£

£1

121,541,648

121,541,648

94,194,777

£5

27,836

139,180

107,865

£12

3,287,237

39,446,844

30,571,304

£25

4,411,829

110,295,725

85,479,187

£26—£499

806,798

116,087,502

89,967,814

£500

164,500

82,250,000

63,743,750

130,239,848

469,760,899

364,064,697

Receipt Stamps

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in the event of a payment being made by stamped cheque for an amount of over £2, it is necessary in addition for the receiver to put a 2d. stamp on the receipt to satisfy the requirements of the law?

Where a receipt is given for a payment by cheque of £2 or upwards it must be stamped, whether the receipt is endorsed on the cheque or given on a separate document. The mere endorsement of a cheque with the payee's name does not, of course, constitute a receipt liable to duty.

Peace Treaties

German Reparation

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the credit of 124,000,000 gold marks has been placed to

As the answer is long, and involves a table of figures, I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPOET.

The following is the answer promised :

The total amount of money invested in savings certificates up to the 30th ultimo was £364,064,697; the amount repaid (exclusive of interest) was approximately £78,300,000; and the net amount invested on that date was, therefore, approximately £285,700,000.

It is not possible to ascertain the number of different holders of certificates, but the number of certificates of different denominations issued up to the 30th ultimo (including those repaid) is as follows:

the British credit by the Reparation Commission; and what credit will this be placed to here?

Yes, Sir. The sum of 124,000,000 gold marks, representing cash in the hands of the Reparation Commission on 1st May, 1921, has been allocated to the British Government in part payment of the British claim outstanding at that date in respect of the cost of the British Army of Occupation. Payment is being made partly in sterling and partly in dollars, and the amounts as received are being paid into the Exchequer under the head of Miscellaneous Receipts, Special.

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware of the delays, due to the collecting of German reparation duty, which arise in the clearing of parcels from Germany at the post office, Union Street, S.E.; that these parcels are kept for a period before a notice of their arrival is sent to the consignee, which notice has to be taken to the Customs Office in a different part of the City, and then re-forwarded to the parcels office; if he will make some arrangements so that all formalities may be dealt with at the parcels office, and thus some part of the delay be avoided; and whether he is aware that these formalities and collection of duty only apply to goods which come direct from Germany, whereas the identical goods, if forwarded from France or Belgium, are not subject to these reparation payments or delays?

A certain amount of delay between importation and delivery of post parcels is inevitable, owing to the necessity of correspondence with the addressee, and the remittance by the latter of the amount of the levy with the necessary declaration of value. Proposals in the sense of the third part of the question are under consideration, and, if found to be practicable, will be carried out. As regards the last part of the question, I may remind the hon. Member that goods which are shown not to have been first consigned from Germany to the United Kingdom are now excepted from the operation of the Act.

Questions

Aviation, Germany

asked the Secretary of State for Air if he will make a statement as to the present position of German aviation, indicating the passenger and/or postal services they are running; the average daily number of miles covered by these services; the form of subsidy the German aviation companies are receiving from the German Government; particulars as to the chief aerial post office which has been established in the Koenig-strasse, Berlin; the fares and rates being charged; particulars of the facilities being given by the German railway companies to assist the aviation companies in the distribution of the passengers, mails, etc.; and the types of machines being employed on these services?

As the answer is rather long, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer :

1. The German Government are unquestionably fostering civil aviation, which is, however, at the moment considerably handicapped by the restrictions on the construction of aircraft imposed by the Treaty of Versailles. There are in Germany two main bodies which virtually control all air traffic—the Deutsche Luftreederei and the Nord Deutsche Lloyd. The latter comprises some eight or ten companies—the most important of which are the Rumpler, Albatros Sablatnig, and Junker concerns. A large number of societies have been founded throughout the country with the object of stimulating interest in, and promoting the development of aviation in all its civil aspects. The Government is indirectly represented on the "Flug and Haven," which is the most influential of these institutions.

Although prohibited by the Allied authorities from running air services outside Germany, the following internal air routes are understood to be actually in daily operation for mail and passengers:

Fare, Marks.

( a ))

Berlin to Danzig and Konigsberg

975

( b ))

Berlin to Bremen and Munster

650

( c ))

Berlin to Bremen and Wangeroog

650

( d ))

Berlin to Brunswick and Dortmund

800

( e ))

Berlin to Dresden

500

( f ))

Berlin to Leipzig, Furnberg, Munich, and Augsburg

1,725

( g ))

Hamburg to Magdeburg, Leipzig, and Dresden

700

( h ))

Munich to Constance

400

( i ))

Stuttgart to Constance

450

( j ))

Travemunde to Warnemunde, Sassnitz, a,nd Swinemunde.

550

2. Some 6,000 miles are said to be flown daily.

3. Subject to their machines having flown 20,000 kilometres during the past year, to 80 per cent. of the scheduled flights being carried out, to the accept ance of an agreement to carry mails of 100 kilogrammes or over on specified routes, approved companies are paid the following subsidy by the Government:

10 marks for every kilometre flown up to 300 kilometres.

11 marks for every kilometre flown over 300 kilometres.

10 marks for every kilogramme of correspondence over 100 kilogrammes.

2 marks for every kilogramme of "newspaper matter" over 100 kilogrammes.

Grammes.

Miscellaneous.

Letters.

Printed matter.

Samples.

Up to 20

80 pfennigs.

Up to 50

1.40 marks.

.1.60. marks.

95. pfennigs.

1.40 marks.

Up to 100

2.20 marks.

.2.40. marks.

1.90. marks.

1.90 marks.

Up to 250

3.00 marks.

.3.60. marks.

3.00. marks.

3.00 marks.

Up to 500 or over

11.60 marks.

5.60. marks.

5.60 marks.

(Post-cards at 50 pfennigs, and parcels up to 1 kilogramme 11.10 marks.)

6. The railway companies arrange for connection between the air mail services and express trains, but no details are available.

7.All the services are being main tained by about 100 old military machines, acquired by the companies from the Allies after surrender by Germany to the Inter-Allied Aeronautical Commission Control.

Royal Air Force (Aeroplane Stations)

asked the Secretary of State for Air the number of aeroplane stations or depots controlled by his Department; the present strength of men in the Air Service; approximately the number of aeroplanes in service at the present time; and whether it is intended to increase the number of depots, men, or machines at the present time?

:The number of stations and depots controlled by the Air Ministry in the United Kingdom is 46, of which two are civil and two are experimental stations. The establishment of the Royal Air Force as authorised by Parliament for the present year is 30,880 all ranks. With regard to the third part of the question, I am prepared to give privately to my hon. Friend the figures for which he asks. The answer to the last portion of the question is in the negative under each of the three heads. It is not intended to increase the number of depots, men, or machines.

The total amount of the subsidy is not to exceed 11,000,000 marks.

4.The post office in Koenigstrasee, Berlin, has been established in order to deal with correspondence leaving the German capital by air.

5.The fares are indicated under each air route; while the charge for correspondence, etc., is:

Customs' Requirements, New York

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the New York customs department is now demanding that the net weight and counts of yards shall be given in respect of all textile goods exported from this country to the United States; whether he is aware of the difficulty with which the exporter, who is not the maker of the goods, can, if at all he can, supply this information; and whether any representations have been made to the United States Government in this behalf?

So far as I have been able to ascertain, the particulars referred to by my hon. Friend are not at present required by the United States customs authorities.

London County Council (Foreign Contract)

asked the President of the Board of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the London County Council have recently placed an order for an 8,000-kilowatt turbo-generator with a foreign firm owing to their competitive price being more favourable than that of British firms; that the placing of such a contract in this country would have caused the employment of many persons now drawing unemploy- ment payment, thus saving an unproductive expenditure of a greater amount than the difference between the foreign and British tenders; and whether His Majesty's Government will consider whether any action could be taken to terminate such an unsatisfactory state of affairs?

Yes, Sir; I understand that the order was placed with a Swiss firm. The Government have no power to interfere with the discretion of local authorities in a matter of this kind. I ought, perhaps, to add that I am informed that British firms were invited to amend their original tenders.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the conditions regarding hours of labour and rates of pay in this country are strictly imposed by the London County Council, and do not apply to foreign manufacturers? That being so, will the hon. Gentleman look into the matter, with a view to securing some method of fair trading as between foreign manufacturers and British?

As to the second point, the Government have no power to interfere with the discretion of local authorities. No doubt these considerations are present in the minds of local authorities when placing their contracts.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a large number of the shares in these companies are owned by British firms in this country?

I am not aware of that fact, and I do not think that it makes the least difference. The employment would go to foreign workmen, and not to British workmen.

Is it not a matter for broad legislation, to see that fairer trading shall be established between British and foreign manufacturers?

I think it would obviously be impossible to legislate in order to control the placing of contracts. I think my hon. Friend would hardly advocate such a drastic form of State interference.

I could not calculate that, but my hon. Friend will possibly make a calculation from the amount of the tender, which is many thousands of pounds.

Disposal Board (Prices)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that the Disposal Board are quoting £10 10s. each for jubilee tip wagons, and that the trade are offering these wagons, new, at £8 8s. each; and whether he is aware that many other articles are being quoted at a higher price by the Disposal Board than that at which the trade can supply; and, if so, will he consider an immediate revision of such prices?

With regard to the first part of this question, the Disposal Board are not now quoting £10 10s. each for jubilee tip wagons, and any reasonable offers for the few remaining wagons of this description will be immediately considered. With regard to the remainder of the question, I am satisfied that the Disposal Board already take all possible measures constantly to revise their selling prices for materials of all sorts, keeping in view the market conditions of the day.

Will the hon. Gentleman consider the advisability, if the intention be to get rid of the Disposal Board as soon as possible, of instructing them always to quote 21 per cent, lower than the retail market price of any goods they have for sale?

I think this suggestion is certainly one which does not command immediate assent. I will give it consideration.

Government of Burma Bill

( by Private Notice ) asked the Lord Privy Seal when it is proposed to proceed with the Government of Burma Bill?

I do not think that at this late stage of the Session it is necessary to ask the House to proceed with this Bill. The Bill merely applies the Government of India Act of 1919 to Burma. This purpose can be effected under Section 52A (1) of the Act by notification. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for India, however, embodied the proposal in. a Bill, in order to bring the matter within the purview of Parliament, in view of certain differences of opinion disclosed in the documents presented to Parliament as to the right constitution for Burma. In view, however, of the fact that for various reasons the Government of India, the Government of Burma, and a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament have now agreed that the right course is to bring Burma within the Government of India Act, the purpose of the introduction of the Bill has been achieved, and it would be, in my opinion, unnecessary in these altered circumstances to mortgage the time of Parliament by the passage of a Statute. Steps will be taken to proceed by notification.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a very strong feeling of hostility to this proposal on the part of the Burmese people, and is it not only right that a grave matter of this sort should be submitted to the consideration of Parliament?

My hon. Friend perhaps failed to catch the purport of the rather long answer I gave. There was no occasion whatever to proceed by way of Bill, but my right hon. Friend chose that procedure because certain differences had arisen upon the subject. The Government of India, the Government of Burma, and the Joint Committee of the two Houses of Parliament have all agreed that this is the proper course to take.

Is it not the case that the objection of the Burmese people is to not being put on an equal footing with the Indian Provinces in respect to constitution?

I have no doubt that my hon. Friend is better informed than I am in this matter.

Is my right hon. Friend not aware that the Government of India especially asked that this Bill should be presented to Parliament?

The object of presenting it to Parliament was to have it examined by the Joint Committee of the two Houses. That Committee has approved it, and I do not think that it is necessary to keep this House sitting late hours to pass a Bill for which there is no necessity.

Business of the House

May I ask the Leader of the House kindly to intimate the business he proposes to take after Eleven o'clock to-night?

Yes, Sir. May I state formally, what I think is known to the House, that on Friday we propose to take the Third Reading of the Safeguarding of Industries Bill.

To-night I have to ask the House to get through a good deal of business. I hope it will not take long, but there is a long list, in consequence of last night's interruption. We propose to proceed with the Orders on the Paper down to No. 10, and in the order in which they appear, with the exception of No. 2 [Irish Railways Settlement of Claims Committee]. I believe there is no opposition to our getting these.

League of Nations' Assembly (British Representatives)

I desire to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order 10, to call attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance, namelyh—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up"]—" the unsatisfactory selection by the Government of our representatives on the Assembly of the League of Nations?"

That is not a Motion which comes within Standing Order No. 10. It is clearly within the province of the Government to proceed in this matter, and, as far as it requires discussion, it may be discussed on the Consolidated Fund Bill next week.

Very respectfully, I submit, Mr. Speaker, that while, of course, it is a matter for the Government to proceed with, yet it is for that reason I desire to call the attention of the House to it. It is an executive action which the Government have a right to take without the leave of this House, and I, therefore, would respectfully point out that the matter is one of the very greatest possible importance—the representation of this country in the Assembly of the League of Nations. If the discussion on this be transferred to the Consolidated Fund Bill, it will be impossible to obtain the opinion of the House as to the propriety of the action of the Government. This, I submit, can only be obtained by special Motion, and that is why I ask for it to be dealt with, and also, I ask, whether you will not consider that this action discloses—in the view of some of us—the profound contempt which the Government has for the League of Nations 1

That is not a very proper remark to make in a submission to the Chair. I have given my opinion on the matter.

Consolidation Bills

Minutes of Proceedings of the Joint Committee and Evidence, in respect of the Education (Consolidation) Bill [ Lords ], to be printed. [No. 152.]

Poison Antidotes Bill,

"to provide that the receptacle of each poison sold by retail shall bear a printed description of an antidote for that poison," presented by Brigadier-General SURTEES; supported by Lieut.-Colonel Raw and Mr. Charles Percy; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 206.]

Standing Committees (Chairmen's Panel)

Mr. JOHN WILLIAM WILSON reported from the Chairmen's Panel: That they had appointed Mr. Rendall to act as Chairman of Standing Committee C (in respect of the Telegraph (Money) Bill); and Sir Halford Mackinder to act as Chairman of the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills (in respect of the Trusts (Scotland) Bill [ Lords ] and in respect of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Bill [ Lords ]).

Report to lie upon the Table.

Selection (Standing Committees)

Standing Committee C

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee C (in respect of the Telegraph (Money) Bill): Captain Elliot, Major Entwistle, Mr. Erskine, Mr. Fildes, Mr. Gardiner, Mr. Hallas, Mr. Jesson, Mr. Kellaway, Mr. Lindsay, Major-General Sir Cecil Lowther, Mr. Pike Pease, Lord Eustace Percy, Mr Alfred Short, Mr. Wignall, and Mr. Hilton Young.

Scottish Standing Committee

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Ten Members to the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills (in respect of the Trusts (Scotland) Bill [ Lords ] and the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Bill [ Lords ]): Mr. Cairns, Mr. Finney, Captain Foxcroft, Mr. Frederick Green, General Sir Archibald Hunter, Mr. Jodrell, Sir Robert Newman, Major Steel, Major Waring, and Colonel Sir Alfred Warren.

Reports to lie upon the Table.

Public Accounts Committee

Third Report from the Committee, brought up, and read, with Minutes of Evidence and Appendices;

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 212.]

Orders of the Day

Railways Bill

[5th ALLOTTED DAY.]

As amended ( in Standing Committee A and in Standing Committee B ), further considered.

FIRST SCHEDULE.

l.

2.

3.

Groups.

Constituent Companies.

Subsidiary Companies.

1. The Southern Group

1. The London and South Western Railway Company; the London Brighton and South Coast Railway Company; the South Eastern Railway Company; the London Chatham and Dover Railway Company; the South Eastern and Chatham Railway Companies Managing Committee.

1. The Bridgwater Railway Company, the Brighton and Dyke Railway Company; the Freshwater Yarmouth and Newport (Isle of Wight) Railway Company; the Hayling Railways Company; the Isle of Wight Railway Company; the Isle of Wight Central Railway Company; the Lee-on-the-Solent Railway Company; the London and Greenwich Railway Company; the Mid Kent Railway (Bromley to St. Mary Cray) Company; the North Cornwall Railway Company; the Plymouth and Dartmoor Railway Company; the Plymouth, Devonport and South Western Junction Railway Company; the Sid-mouth Railway Company; the Victoria Station and Pimlico Railway Company.

2. The Western Group.

2. The Great Western Railway Company.

2. The Alexandra (Newport and South Wales) Docks and Railway Company; the Barry Railway Company; the Brecon and Merthyr Tydfil Junction Railway Company; the Burry Part and Gwendreath Valley Railway Company; the Cambrian Railway Company; the Cardiff Railway Company; the Cleobury Mortimer and Ditton Priors Light Railway Company; the Didcot Newbury and Southampton Railway Company; the Exeter Railway Company; the Festiniog Railway Company; the Forest of Dean Central Railway Company; the Gwen-dreath Valleys Railway Company; the Lampeter, Aberayron and New Quay Light Railway Company; the Liskeard and Looe Railway Company; the Llanelly and Mynydd Mawr Railway Company; the Mawddy Railway Company; the Midland and South Western Junction Railway Company; the Neath and Brecon Railway Company; the Penarth Extension Railway Company; the Penarth Harbour, Dock and Railway Company; the Port Talbot Railway and Docks Company: the Princetown Railway Company; the Rhondda and Swansea Bay Railway Company; the Rhymney Railway Company; the Ross and Monmouth Railway Company; the Shropshire Railway (Nantmawr Branch) Company; the South Wales Mineral Railway Company; the Taff Vale Railway Company; the Tanat Valley Light Railway Company; the Teign Valley Railway Company; the Vale of Glamorgan Railway Company; the Van Railway Company; the Welshpool and Llanfair Light Railway Company; the West Somerset Railway Company; the Wrexham and Ellesmere Railway Company.

3. The North Western, Midland, and West Scottish Group.

3. The London and North Western Railway Company; the Midland Railway Company; the Lancashire and York-

3. The Arbroath and Forfar Railway Company; the Brechin and Edzell District Railway Company; the Callendar and Oban Railway Company; the Cathcart District Railway Company; the Charnwood Forest Railway Company; the Cleator and Workington Junction Railway

1.

2.

3.

Groups.

Constituent Companies.

Subsidiary Companies.

3. The North Western, Midland and West Scottish Group— cont.

shire Railway Company; the North Staffordshire Railway Company; the Furness Railway Company; the Caledonian Railway Company; the Glasgow and South Western Railway Company; the Highland Railway Company.

Company; the Cookermouth, Keswick and Penrith Railway Company; the Dearne Valley Railway Company; the Dornoch Light Railway Company; the Dundee and Newtyle Railway Company; the Harborne Railway Company; the Killin Railway Company; the Lanarkshire and Ayrshire Railway Company; the Knott End Railway Company; the Leek and Manifold Valley Light Railway Company; the Maryport and Carlisle Railway Company; the Mold and Denbigh Junction Railway Company; the North and South Western Junction Railway Company; the North London Railway Company; the Port-patrick and Wigtownshire Joint Railway Company; the Shropshire Union Railways and Canal Company; the Solway Junction Railway Company; the Stratford-upon-Avon and Midland Junction Railway Company; the Tottenham and Forest Gate Railway Company; the Wick and Lybster Light Railway Company; the Wirral Railway Company; the Yorkshire Dales Railway (Skipton to Grassington) Company.

4. The North Eastern, Eastern, and East Scottish Group

4. The North Eastern Railway Company; the Great Central Railway Company; the Great Eastern Railway Company; the Great Northern Railway Company; the Hull and Barnsley Railway Company; the North British Railway Company; the Great North of Scotland Railway Company.

4. The Brackenhill Light Railway Company.; the Colne Valley and Halstead Railway Company; the East and West Yorkshire Union Railways Company; the East Lincolnshire Railway Company; the Edinburgh and Bathgate Railway Company; the Forcett Railway Company; the Forth and Clyde Junction Railway Company; the Grifford and Garvald Light Railway Company; the Great North of England, Clarence and Hartlepool Junction Railway Company; the Horncastle Railway Company; the Humber Commercial Railway and Dock Company; the Kilsyth and Bonnybridge Railway Company; the Lander Light Railway Company;the London and Blackwall Railway Company; the Mansfield Railway Company; the Mid-Suffolk Light Railway Company; the Newburgh and North Fife Railway Company; the North Lindsey Light Railways Company; the Nottingham and Grantham Railway and Canal Company; the Nottingham Joint Station Committee; the Nottingham Suburban Railway Company; the Seaforth and Sefton Junction Railway Company; the Sheffield District Railway Company; the South Yorkshire J unction Railway Company; the Stamford and Essendine Railway Company; the West Riding Railway Committee.

I beg to move, in paragraph 3, column 3, after the word "Company" ["Derwent Vailey Railway Company"], to insert the words the constituency I represent, t do claim to know something of the subject about which I am speaking. I can say very confidently that this would be an immense improvement to the district. The Midland Railway Company, who are determined opponents of this being included in the Bill, have a monopoly of the travelling facilities of the district. Their object, of course, of which we cannot complain, is to create or increase the dividends without taking undue risk.

To explain the position I must go into little history of the project. This company was incorporated by a special Act of Parliament in August, 1920. The length of the proposed line is 6Û miles. It commences at Grindelford, by a junction with the Midland Railway Company, Dore and Chinley line, and passing through the Calver district, which is particularly rich in minerals and has some very valuable beds of limestone, terminates at Bakewell, which is a very important town, and one of the best known market towns in Derbyshire. About here is one of the most aristocratic districts in the country. I represent a portion of it in Parliament. We have ducal and lordly mansions; and although they tried to keep me out of Parliament, I am going to try and help them in this matter. Firstly, it will put this flourishing town of Bakewell into direct communication with Sheffield. I am very glad the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport is here, because he knows as well as I do that this railway would shorten the route through this district from 42 miles—as it now is—to 19 miles. It would also give a new outlet, which I am sure he will agree is badly needed, to the Derwent Valley and to that important district from which he comes and which he represents here. I know how solicitous this House of Commons is for the working men. Therefore I commend this to them, as this would enable the working classes of Sheffield more readily to get off to the holiday resorts of the Peak. More important still than all this is the bringing into commercial use of the valuable beds of limestone and other valuable minerals of which there is an abundance in the district, and which only requires the necessary transit facilities to enable great developments in that direction.

There is in the adjacent district a great demand for this limestone, which I am told, and know perfectly well, because I have lived there for 40 years, is high-class. It is nearer the great manufacturing centres than are the other quarries. It is badly required for the blast furnace of Sheffield, Staveley, Sheepbridge, Park Gate, and Lincolnshire. The promoters of this Bill and undertaking are, as I understand, well-known ironmasters in the Midlands and landowners along the line of the route. Again, I cannot claim any friend- ship with them, and again let me assert it is only in the public interest I am moving this afternoon. The railway would undoubtedly, if constructed, provide employment, and that, after all, is what we have to attend to in the next few years, for many hundreds of workmen in the development of the district. It would be of great benefit to the passengers, in so much as many passengers from the district I represent either go to Sheffield or to other commercial centres. It would shorten the journey from this particular district by no less than 23 miles, if people wanted to go to Sheffield or any of the large towns.

When this Bill was presented last year and passed it had the support of all the local authorities. It had the support of the Sheffield Chamber of Commerce, and of the Sheffield Corporation, of which the Parliamentary Secretary is a most honoured and distinguished member. I am quite sure he gave his support to the petition which was presented in favour of this Bill. Here is the most important part of it: It was included by the Minister last year in his Bill as presented to the House of Commons as one of the subsidiary companies to be absorbed by the Midland group. Then came on the scene the hon. and gallant Member for Durham (Major Hills), who is a director, I believe, of the Midland Railway Company, and who represents in this House, as I understand it, the large railway companies.

True, and I also represent my own constituency, but the hon. and gallant Member is a director of the Midland Railway Company. He knows perfectly well that the Mid land Railway Company have a monopoly of the whole of the railway travelling in that district, and he moved to strike out this railway company on the ground that no work in the construction of the line had been done, and that it stood in the same position as other companies which had been struck out. I have taken the trouble to get a copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT of what he said in Committee. I was not a Member of that Committee. He did not say that there had never been an opportunity to construct the line, because within four months of the Royal Assent being given to the Bill this great project of the Minister of Transport was brought before the House and the country. Although both the Minister and the hon. and gallant Member for Durham knew this, they did not make it clear. The Minister said that they had already dealt with the Festiniog Company, and the striking out of this company was absolutely on a line with that which the Committee had already done in that case. It was put in, he said, in case it was a statutory railway, but it did not in fact exist. It is not on a- par with the Festiniog Company, because there has been no time to construct this railway. Therefore, those arguments do not apply. Then followed a distinguished Welsh Member (Mr. E. Evans), and Welsh Members, at any rate sometimes, may be depended upon. I submit that this is one of those occasions. He said:

"The other companies which have been struck out have had powers for a considerable number of years, and are, therefore, in effect, derelict companies. The Derwent Valley, Calver and Bakewell Railway Company is in a somewhat different position, because, I am informed, it only received these powers last year. Other companies have had the powers for a considerable number of years. I am told that this company means to open up an important area in Derbyshire, to develop the limestone industry, and I think that, in these circumstances, the Amendment should not be rushed through."

Notwithstanding the nationality of that gentleman, I accept entirely what he said with regard to this railway. Then came the Parliamentary Secretary, and I would again respectfully remind him that he is a member of the corporation which said most emphatically that this line was needed. He was not then, I think, in the Government. Now he says:

"It is true that this is a new company, and that nothing has been done towards construction. I would like to point out that we are not interfering with the legal rights of the company. Its legal rights will remain intact."

The whole success, or otherwise, of this railway company depends upon the attitude of the Midland Eailway Company. There is no question whatever about that.

You are not now quoting?

No, I am not quoting any longer. That is a comment on the hon. Member's attitude while a member of the Sheffield Corporation, which was distinctly contrary to what he said upstairs. I will quote him further:

"The proposal is that one of the Groups should take over the Parliamentary powers; nothing more. I respectfully suggest it makes no difference whether those powers are new or old."

The success or otherwise of this scheme, as I say, depends upon the attitude of the Midland Railway Company. They can carry on the traffic on their main line, which is a very great inconvenience to passengers, or, by their co-operation in the construction of this line and the inclusion of it as a subsidiary company, they can probably make it a. success. Let me quote another authority. I am sure the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary will not dispute the authority of the right hon. Baronet, the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Bambury). He really is an authority upon whose words we can depend in this matter. He said:

"I was unaware, when my hon. and gallant Friend moved this Amendment, that this particular exemption differed materially from the other exemptions which we have made. We made the other exemptions because it was pointed out that powers had been obtained 20 or 3O years ago for schemes, which experience shows were truly impracticable and impossible, and which have never been put into operation. To burden the constituent companies, therefore, with schemes which time has shown to have been wild-cat and impossible to carry out—to burden them, possibly with an obligation to carry out something which could not be carried out, and certainly with an obligation to pay to certain people who have spent money on those impracticable schemes, to give them an opportunity of getting their money back, thus putting them in a position in which they never would have been if this Bill had not been brought in—that, in my opinion, and in the opinion of the Committee, is an impossible situation, and therefore we left out those particular companies. Now this is a totally different thing."

I submit, very confidently, that that is an entirely different thing.

Will the hon. Member kindly read on, because, as he will see, I answered that last point?

I am stating my case, and I dare say that the hon. and gallant Member will be able to fill in the gaps. The hon. and gallant Member who has just interrupted me said:

"On Thursday a company was omitted from this -Bill—the St. Just (Falmouth) Ocean Wharves and Railway Company— whose powers were obtained only two years ago, and this proposal is to omit an Act of Parliament that was obtained a year ago. I submit, therefore, that they are really similar cases."

They are not similar cases at all. The hon. and gallant Member was answered by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London, who said:

"We never get these things properly explained. I admit that I did not thoroughly understand what was going on. Perhaps I ought to have intervened, but this is a different thing. Here is a railway company. It does not appear to me to have anything to do with docks, harbours; or anything of that sort, but it is a railway company which only a year ago was granted certain powers. They have not had time to begin to utilise those powers. You cannot say that the powers or the scheme were wrong, because they have not had time to carry them out. Why on earth should not that have been put in?"

Then the hon. and gallant Member for Durham intervened, and said:

"There is no railway."

The right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London said:

"But there will be. I have statements here by the Minister that one of the great advantages of setting up a Ministry of Transport was that we were going to develop the country, and that we were going to make more railways. We cannot say the company was not wanted, because only a year ago the House itself gave power to make these lines."

The hon. and gallant Member for Durham said:

"It will never pay its way."

I submit that he had no right to say that, because last year when the Bill was passed, they proved upstairs that there was a fair prospect that this railway would pay its way. The Minister said:

"It never will be made"

It would have been commenced but for his Bill being brought in. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London said:

"Then why did the House give the powers? I shall certainly vote against the ommission of this company."

The hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) said:

"Is there any provision in the Bill whereby, if the railway be constructed, it will be in the Midland Railway Company? It will.connect, I understand, two branches of the Midland Company— the line from Derby to Manchester, at Bakewell, with the line from Sheffield to Manchester. It is a short line protected by those two branches. If constructed, it certainly ought to be taken over by the Midland Company."

I submit that the whole of the arguments were in favour of the taking over of this small railway company by the group, although they did not go to a Division. The Minister of Transport said:

"I understand, from private inquiries, that there is very little chance of this railway being made."

If he had made some private inquiries in the district most affected he would not only have had proof of the necessity of it, but he would also have had proof that there was a very fair chance of the railway being made. He went on further to-say:

"The country was littered with these forlorn hopes, and it seems hard that we should have to differentiate between what is a forlorn hope and what is not."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee B,; 4th July, 1921.]

This is not a forlorn hope, and never was. There has been for years a great agitation in the district for a better connection with the North of England, and I submit that but for this Bill the railway would now be in course of construction. I submit further that the policy of the Minister when he issued his White Paper, No. 787, which was the foundation of the present Bill, was the unification of all existing railways and the development of backward areas. He has now gone back on that principle by agreeing to strike out this company. The position in which this small railway company has been left by the Committee is altogether unsatisfactory. It is quite contrary to the declared intentions of the Government upon which this Bill was based, and as disclosed in the White Paper. The White Paper says:

"In each case the new group would absorb the smaller and independent broad gauge lines within its area."

I suppose it will be said that there is no broad gauge line because the line has not been constructed, but it would have been but for the right hon. Gentleman's Bill. Under the heading "Development Fund " it was stated:

"Much development work has to be done which is beyond the financial resources of the localities, and the intention is that the Government's share of these surplus profits should be funded for development purposes to assist backward districts."

The Paper further says:

"The State would have the right to acquire adequate services and adequate facilities, including minor extensions in the geographical area which it is proposed to allot to each group company."

That, briefly, is the case, which I have very imperfectly put before the House. I know nothing about the technical side of this matter, but I do know that there is an opportunity for the development of this district which has been seldom offered, and would be effected by the construction of this small line. I have no doubt that the Parliamentary Secretary will say that it can still be constructed. I know it can, but at the same time the Midland Railway Company can keep the traffic on its own line until it is either a failure or a success. Suppose the promoters do go on and build this line, they will simply be at the mercy of the Midland .Railway Company. If it were successful, the Midland Railway Company would probably seek to acquire it, though whether they would have the power I do not know, because, having been on other Committees, I have not studied the Railways Bill. There is not the slightest doubt that the Midland Railway Company could either make it a failure or a success. I dare say the promoters— I am not speaking for them in any way, and I do not know who they are—will not carry out this scheme unless they can be included as a subsidiary company, and, if this railway be not built, the public will suffer. This country is rich in minerals. This line is also needed by passengers for direct communication with the North of England, and it would be a great boon to the district which I represent. The other night, on another point, when it came to a question of directors' compensation, the question was submitted to the free vote of the House, and I want the Minister of Transport to allow this Amendment to be submitted in the same manner to a free vote with the government Whips kept off.

My hon. Friend the Member for Western Derby (Mr. C. White) has called in aid of his Amendment my knowledge of this particular district and has refered more than once to the fact that the Sheffield Corporation has passed resolutions in favour of the construction of this line. He has also said that has the support of many public bodies in Sheffield. I know many Sheffields want this line because it would provide easy access to some of those beauty spots around Sheffield which that city has been in the happy possession of for many years. May I point out that the promoters of this Bill were not actuated by that motive alone. They were in fact gentlemen with large commercial and local interests, and they were of opinion that a portion of this line had very valuable prospects for the carriage of limestone which could be used in the industries of Sheffield and Chesterfield, and places of that description. They were influenced in the first place by the fact that it would have good commercial results.

Having admitted so much, I cannot understand how so shrewd a man as my hon. Friend has been led to move this Amendment. He has already admitted that this line depends upon the goodwill of the Midland Railway Company for its success. He also says that the Midland Company has a long line running to the same district which may crush this line out of existence if it is built by private enterprises. Here I think the hon. Member will realize that his argument stops short of the real point, and if you hand this line over to the group of which the Midland Railway Company is the most powerful factor the line would never be built at all. Does it not follow that, if this particular line is a bete noir to the Midland Railway Company, to hand it over to that company and its confreres would be to at one secure its end. It would be an abortion, and the line would never come to birth at all. The great mistake underlying this Amendment seems to me to be the fact that the hon. Member who moved it has not studied the Bill, because he is of opinion that if this particular line were handed over to the group that they must build it but exactly opposite is the fact. If you hand this line over to the group of companies who are not in favour of it, naturally it follows that they will never construct it, and to say that you will hand over these powers to the very company which the hon. Member admits is averse to the exercing of these powers is to make it certain that the line will never be built. There is no obligation under the Bill for a group of railways to exercise the powers of the companies which are contained in the group.

My hon. Friend is now admitting my point If the Bill is defective in that particular respect, it follows that my argument is right. To hand this line over to a group which he says is hostile to it, is a sure way of preventing that railway being built. From his point of view, I should look with dismay upon the handing over of these powers to a company which he says is not in the least degree likely to exercise those powers. My hon Friend further says that by the Bill we are are preventing this railway being made, but there I join issue with him. I think I know more of the history of this particular line than he does. It is not this Bill which is preventing the railway being made, because there is not a Clause or a line in it which alters the position of the promoters of that scheme. There is not a single handicap in the way of those promoters under this Bill which was not in their way when they came forward and obtained their powers. This Bill in no way touches or interferes with the Parliamentary powers granted to the company in 1920.

What would be the effect of carrying this Amendment? Let my hon. Friend see how far he has been led into a false position. The effect of this Amendment would be that the group of companies would have to pay the promoters' expenses, and that would be the beginning and the end of the Derwent Valley Railway when once the promoters' expenses had been paid. The powers would have gone over to the group, and that particular group of railways would have quite enough business of its own on its hands dealing with existing railways, because they would be very busy reorganising them and making their own arrangements. I have had many years' acquaintance with my hon. Friend who has moved this Amendment, and I know him sufficiently well to know that if he had realised that the only effect of his Amendment would be to secure the payment of the promoters' expenses, there would have been no man in this House less likely to move this Amendment.

That really is the whole case. The hon. Member was again misled when he quoted the White Paper, and when he said that the Minister of Transport had given his approval to this railway being developed. That is a state of things we all long for, but the finances of the day do not permit of the Government giving subsidies for that policy. It is only be-cause of the financial position in which we find ourselves that we are unable to take those formal steps. The chance of this railway being built depends upon the revival of commerce, and the prosperity of the firms who gave it their great support as promoters, and when they think the time is ripe, and costs have fallen to such an extent as to make the venture offer a financial success, I know those gentlemen well enough to believe that they will be very likely, indeed, to take up those powers and build the line.

The Parliamentary Secretary has practically devoted his speech to showing my hon. Friend (Mr. White) how ill-advised he was to put down this Amendment, and he asserted that if my hon.Friend had known a little more about the Bill he would not have moved it. He also stated that he is doing the worst possible service to his constituents by putting forward this proposal. I want to remind the House that this Amendment was, in the first place, actually in the Bill itself, and, therefore, if it is true that my hon. Friend knows nothing about the Bill, that remark must also apply to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport.

May I point out, in regard to this Amendment, that the moment you know the Midland Railway Company is hostile, that constitutes the reason why you should not give these powers.

I am trying to show that that is not a sound argument at all. What is contained in this Amendment is really the Government's own proposal. They left out the forlorn hopes where Parliamentary powers had been obtained many years ago, and had never been taken up. I can understand that policy in regard to schemes that were practically dead, because to take them over and pay the expenses of the promoters would have been absurd from a public point of view. May I point out that in regard to the railway dealt with under this Amendment the powers were only granted in August last year, and very soon after that this Bill was announced, and when they knew that, they did not proceed with their scheme because they preferred to wait in order to see what was going to happen? When the Bill appeared this scheme was in it, and it was excluded by an Amendment of the hon. and gallant Member for Durham (Major Hills), acting on behalf of the Midland Railway Company.

The Parliamentary Secretary asks what is the good of putting this proposal in the Bill if it is the bete noire of the Midland Railway Company. I do not think that is so. I am of opinion that this line is going to be constructed. It is only 6½ miles long, but it will open up a large amount of traffic to Bakewell taking people at all times of the year to these beauty spots. It will also open up Calver, a new Limestone district, from which there will be a large and profitable goods traffic, and I can conceive of no short line of railway which, both from the passenger and goods point of view, is likely to be a more profitable thing. My own belief is that the Midland Railway Company will take it up, and the idea of it has been given to them by the promoters of the Bill of last year. All the plans have been prepared for them, and they know exactly what to do.

A great deal of expense has been incurred, and if this Amendment is not accepted the Midland Railway Company will take up this Bill, and have this line constructed, and they will have all the advantage while the real promoters will lose their expenses and pay nothing for it. I do not know whether the Minister of Transport is prepared to defend that action. After the promoters have gone to all this expense, and have shown how the line can be laid and demonstrated how it can be made profitable, and if the Midland Railway are given the opportunity of taking the matter up, as will be the case under this Bill, then I think the original promoters are entitled to have their expenses paid and the Midland Railway Company should start this scheme with those expenses as a debit balance.

The line in question is 6½ miles long. It is not yet built. Power for its construction was obtained last year, but nothing has yet been done. It is now suggested that the North-Western and the Midland Group should buy this piece of paper—it is really only an Act of Parlia- ment—and should pay the promoters the expenses they have incurred. I would point out to the House that this Bill is one for the reorganisation of the railways. The last speaker has however made it perfectly plain that what the promoters want is that their expenses should be paid, I will only say that I entirely disagree with the very rosy picture which the Mover of the Amendment and the last speaker have painted of the prospects of this line. My information is, and the Minister confirmed it in Committee, that the line will never be made and would never pay if it were constructed. I submit to the House it is entirely wrong, in the highest public interests, that a group should be compelled to take over a proposition which it believes will prove entirely unprofitable, and that it should also be compelled to pay the promoters' expenses, with the result that the capital of the group will be increased and the charges to the public raised. What are the reasons given by the last speaker, as well as by the Mover, in support of the Amendment? The first was that this scheme was included in the original Bill. I agree that it was, but I believe it was included only for the reason that it is technically a railway company. As soon, however, as it was pointed out to the Minister that no railway existed or was likely to exist, the Committee struck it out of the Bill. The second reason put forward was that the line would be extremely profitable and was much wanted by the locality. May I respectfully repeat what the Parliamentary Secretary has said already, that there is nothing in this Bill which will prevent the construction of the line. The building of railways will go on after this Bill has become law, and anybody who likes to come to Parliament to obtain powers to build a line in the future can come just as freely as if the Bill had not passed. If the line is likely to prove so very profitable, I suppose it will be built, but I am extremely sceptical on the subject. It is, however, going a very long way to ask a group which is to work live railways to take over a piece of paper for the construction of a line which I am convinced will never be made. Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in paragraph 3, at the end of column 2, to insert the words, " the Hull and Barnsley Railway Company."

I hesitate even briefly to put before the House another aspect of the case of the Hull and Barnsley Railway, but I feel, and my colleagues in the representation of Hull feel that we would be lacking in our duty if we did not make a last appeal to Parliament against the great injury which the citizens of Hull feel is being done to them under the present railway grouping. The object of my Amendment is to remove the Hull and Barnsley Railway from Group No. 4 to Group No. 3, where, we think, it will better serve the interests of the City. There is, of course, a consequential Amendment later on which will fall to the ground if we do not pursuade the House to accept our view on this matter. The House has already heard of the great example of public-spirited men mobilising the local enterprise of a great city, in order to build their own line of railway so that they may have an alternative route for their produce and a means of bargaining and holding their own against the very crushing monopoly of the North Eastern Railway Company It was a successful enterprise, a great example of local patriotism which was made a success by the energy and far-sightedness of leading public men supported by the rank and file of the city.

Under this Bill that great work is being undone. The Minister of Transport, who professes to know much more about Hull than anyone else, rather questions the lack of knowledge of their own interests of business men in Hull. He tells them it is not good to have to keep two stocks of coal —one in each dock. He also tells them that they do not know their own business. This Amendment is supported by amongst others, the following important trade interests: The Hull Incorporated Chambers of Commerce and Shipping; the Hull and North East of England Cattle Food Traders' Association; the Hull Corn Trade Association; the Hull Seed Crushers' Committee; the Fruit Trade Section, the Humber District Section of the Timber Trades Federation of the United Kingdom; the Hull Paint and Colour Manufacturers' Association; the Hull Fish Merchants' Protection Association; the Hull and District Chamber of Trade; and several other trading sections, and in addition the whole of the Hull Cor- poration. Every single candidate for the Hull City Council at the November election pledged himself to support this proposal. The Labour minority on the council also support it; indeed, only a few Labour men in Hull do not support it, and that is because they go in for the wider claim for nationalisation. I suppose the right hon. Gentleman would tell us that the South Yorkshire Coal Owners' Association do not know their own business, because they support it. The whole of the rank and file of small business men in the city support it, and the four Members for Hull, irrespective of party, are in favour of it, Ordinary small business men who have no family interests, and no great political patronage, but who have to support their families by their business operations, are in favour of this proposal. The right hon. Gentleman suggests that he knows their business better than they do themselves, and he has drawn a wonderful picture of archaic carting arrangements and other disabilities, in order to show the inefficiency of these business men who have built up the trade of this great sea-faring and manufacturing centre. We have one distinguished business man in Hull who is not in favour of this Amendment, but he is a director of the North Eastern Railway Company.

We are attacked on this question by the Newcastle Members and the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. J. Wilson), a Newcastle man who speaks from the Newcastle point of view. The Newcastle people have long been spoon-fed by the North Eastern Railway Company. They have been well treated by that company. The North Eastern line runs to Newcastle through a rich manufacturing, coal-mining section of country, while the railway to Hull goes through 30 miles of agricultural land—very rich land, no doubt—but nevertheless not carrying anything like the traffic that manufacturing, coal-mining or mineral-bearing district provides. Therefore it needs some special inducement to get good facilities for Hull. That is the whole case in a nutshell, and that is why we say that the Newcastle case is not comparable with the Hull case. We are told that by this Amendment, by which we propose to add this line to the Midland and North Western group, we shall give that great group a right arm stretching out into the North Sea, and that it will interfere with the territorial grouping of the railways. In this Bill, however, territorial grouping is not by any means strictly adhered to. The North Eastern and the Northern group have antennae running out to the West Coast, and I think in common fairness we should not turn down the request of Hull that it should have a junction with the Midland and North Western group. I believe the representatives of the North Western and Midland group would not be averse to taking over this prosperous little railway. We have a junction with the Midland Railway at Cudworth, but no visible junction with the North Eastern. The North Eastern Railway Company is a wealthy corporation, as by long and bitter experience the smaller business men in Hull know. We have no great trusts or combines there; they are mainly middle-class men, and we have no great amalgamations.

These smaller men have found in the past, and they fear to-day—and they know their own business—that they will not get from the North Eastern Railway the attention that their great wealthy competitors may get. The young men, who have bean away during these seven terrible years, and who now are trying to make up their fortunes again in face of terrible obstacles, feel most keenly that they will be under a great disadvantage if they only have to depend on the good will of this great, wealthy North Eastern Railway Company. It is no use saying that the group extends from the North of Scotland to the South of England. The dominating feature in this Eastern group will be the North Eastern Railway Company, and the first to admit it will be the Minister of Transport. He knows that they are the wealthiest and have the most capital, and I pay them the compliment of saying that they have, perhaps, the most efficient railway service. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] I am judging by their success. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] Well, I will withdraw that. Sir Alexander Butter-worth, however, is a man who, I believe, is equal to any man in the railway world. He is the general manager of the North Eastern Railway Company, and I pay him the compliment of saying that the North Eastern Railway will be top dog. The fears of the Hull business men may be an illusion, as the right hon. Gentleman says, but they desire some alternative. If they cannot get courtesy and consideration from this group serving their port, they want, like Bristol, Liverpool, or Man- chester, to have some alternative to which they can go. This is not an artificial agitation; it is not a fetish; it is a heartfelt appeal to Parliament by practically the whole of the trading and business community of Hull, asking that there shall not be taken away from them, almost by a stroke of the pen in this Measure, by the whipped-in majority of the Government, the alternative means of communication which their own local energy and patriotism in the past have made a success.

I beg to second the Amendment.

It is not always that I find myself in such complete agreement with the hon. and gallant Member who moved it, but what he has stated does accurately represent, I believe, the considered judgment and unanimous opinion of the whole of the business community of Hull. The case for the Corporation of Hull has been succinctly put and circulated, I believe, to every Member of the House, and I do not, therefore, propose to add anything to what the hon. and gallant Member has said; but I do appeal to the House as earnestly as I can to support us in the endeavour which we are making in regard to this matter. It is not a party matter, and I appeal to the House to support us and not to support the Government. If we are not successful in getting this Amendment passed, it seems to me and to the other Hull Members that a very serious injustice will be inflicted upon Hull by these grouping proposals.

If I only reply briefly to the case which has been briefly but adequately stated by my two hon. Friends who have moved and seconded this Amendment, it is because this question has been discussed at great length on numerous occasions, and has already been discussed during the Report stage in another form on another Clause when, on a Division, I think, a record number of supporters of His Majesty's Government went into the Lobby against this case.

It is not the case that anyone can desire to do any injustice to the important port of Hull, but there are certain points which have been made from time to time on behalf of the Government, and which there has never yet been any attempt to answer, if I may say so with respect, either on the part of my hon. Friends who represent Hull or in the communications which, as was mentioned by the hon. Member who seconded the Amendment, have been circulated on behalf of Hull. They do not deal with the fact that there will no longer be a North Eastern Railway Company. They do not deal with the fact that between the year 1881—when this controversy became acute and when the Hull and Barnsley Railway came into being—and the present time, there is a great gulf, and there is no case whatever which can be cited in recent years where there has been a failure on the part of the North Eastern Railway to do its duty towards Hull. There is another point which they have never attempted to touch upon, and which was made by the Minister in Committee, namely, that Hull is the classic case of waste which this Bill is designed to eliminate, and will fail unless it succeeds in eliminating, from the transport system of this country. Anything worse than the waste which concentrates around the system of Hull is difficult to conceive; and that point has been emphasised from the workers' point of view by the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. James Wilson) both in Committee and this House, when he called attention to the fact that he himself had unwillingly drawn wages for many hours that were absolute waste because of the conditions in Hull. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) spoke of the desire that there should be a stretching out of the right arm of the North Western and Midland Groups. They have been repeatedly told that there are running powers, and they are exercised and will continue to be exercised, by three members in that group—by the Mid land—

I do not want to contradict except to avoid misunderstanding. The Midand have no running powers over the Hull and Barnsley.

They have over the North Eastern. My point is not that they have running powers over a particular line, but that they have access to Hull, and I do not understand my hon. and gallant Friend to say that they have not.

I understood, and I think the House understood, the Parliamentary Secretary to say that the Midland had running powers over the Hull and Barnsley. I merely wanted to avoid misunderstanding.

I am sure my hon. and gallant Friend would not interrupt for any other purpose than to make a point clear, and I do not complain at all, but he will forgive me for saying that I did not put that to the House. I said that there were three companies who, to use the figure of speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull, can stretch out their right arm to the East Coast—the Midland Railway, the North Western Railway, and the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway. But, coming to the question of the interest of Hull in this matter, if they will consider it apart from their old-time experience of the eighties they will see what the conditions will be. You get a great group of companies stretching from the North of Scotland right down to the Thames. Which ports will that group favour? Clearly the ports where they have some influence or control over the traffic. What are those ports? There are the ports of Harwich, Immingham—which was established as a direct challenge to Hull and which led after a long delay to the creation of a joint dock, and I think I am right in saying that the North Eastern Railway Company were put under terms to contribute something like £1,000,000 of capital at 3⅐ per cent, to that work—Hartlepool, Middlesbrough, the Tyne ports, and Glasgow. All those ports will be influenced as to their traffic by this great group, and it would be, as we see it—and we have no interest in this matter except that of the country as a whole, including Hull—as we see it the tendency would be to divert traffic from Hull, where they would only have a part share, to the ports where they would have a full share. That is one of the points that has been repeatedly stated, and I do not understand that the traders and others interested in Hull have ever gripped that point or attempted to answer it.

Just see what happens. You have three docks. You have a dock belonging to the Hull and Barnsley Railway, called, I think, the Alexandra Dock. You have a dock in the town belonging to the North Eastern Railway—a dock round which the warehouses are, and which is the most attractive dock for ships, because it is the most central and convenient in working. Then you have the new joint dock—the King George V Dock—which was created as a joint undertaking when it was long overdue. Suppose that a ship goes into the Alexandra Dock with a mixed cargo, some of which has to go on the North Eastern Railway and some on the Hull and Barnsley. Every bit of that traffic that has to go on the North Eastern has to be unloaded and carted. The carting charges that are wasted in Hull are enormous. If you are dealing with the question of coal, you have to have separate coal standages for the wagons of each line, with an untold expense and waste. And who is it that is paying? This, again, is a point that my right hon. Friend has made, and no answer to it has ever been so much as shadowed. It is not the Hull traders who are paying. They are only paying their share. It is the people along the whole district who will be parties to this group, who will be called upon to pay for any extravagance in Hull. This Bill puts Hull in a stronger position than it has ever been in. Clause 12 of the Bill gives power to traders to secure facilities the like of which they have never known in the past, and there are traders in the House who will be ready to acknowledge that. Clause 54 of the Bill preserves in their entirety the whole of the powers which exist as between companies, in addition to which we have proposed Amendments, which the House has been pleased to accept, making it possible for the grouped companies to set up committees which may look into various particular matters, and may possibly look particularly at the interests of this important port and district. If my right hon. Friend had any doubt at all as to the safety and security of Hull, he would have been the first to endeavour to do something for that port. Repeated references have been made to him personally, and that is why I answer in this matter rather than he himself, but, on a clear, impartial view of the whole of the circumstances, we are firmly of opinion that the interests of Hull will be better protected, and that we are striking at one of the root causes of waste in the railway system.

I hope the House will bear with me for a few minutes while I say a few words on this matter, although I know that a good many hon. Members think that it has already been debated ad nauseam. I agree that it has been very fully debated, not only here but also in Committee, and I acknowledge with thanks the fair and extremely full Debate which was allowed in Committee. But the fact remains that Hull is not satisfied. They feel that this Bill is doing them an injustice, and we could not have a stronger proof of that than the speech that the Parliamentary Secretary has just made. Every word of that speech was tantamount to saying that Hull has enjoyed privileges in the past to which is was not entitled, and that those privileges are now going to be withdrawn. The Parliamentary Secretary says that the giving of those privileges to Hull has been wasteful, that it has cost money, and that they are going to be withdrawn. He knows more about railways than I do, and perhaps he is right, but can one wonder that Hull as a city is protesting to the best and utmost of its ability at having facilities withdrawn which it has enjoyed for very many years? May I put the question in a very few words from the point of view of public opinion and of people generally in Hull? They feel that Hull and the Hull and Barnsley Railway and the gigantic shipping and business interests which are there involved have been and are being used as a mere pawn in the negotiations of the Minister of Transport. Their view is something like this. They feel that the North Eastern Railway Company wanted to have in their hands the Hull and Barnsley and did not wish to be grouped with the two Scottish companies, and in order to persuade them not to object to being grouped with the two Scottish companies, which were described by the managing director as being practically bankrupt, they were handed over, body and soul, to the North Eastern Railway Company.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman is not correct. The original proposal in the Bill was that the Hull and Barnsley and the North Eastern should be made one group. I think that is common knowledge. They were grouped together in the very first instance. They were not grouped together afterwards at any part of the controversy with the Scotch lines.

They feel that had it not been necessary to placate the North Eastern Company, more favourable terms would have been forthcoming for Hull and the Hull and Barnsley Railway Company. I am only quoting public opinion as it has been transmitted to me from the traders and the commercial community of Hull. After all, when a city has gone to the pains of promoting and practically constructing a railway company on the understanding that whatever happens it is not to amalgamate with another company, it is pretty hard lines to have an Act of Parliament brought in to do exactly what you have taken every possible precaution to prevent happening. The Hull Corporation could not have taken more careful precautions to prevent the North Eastern Railway Company amalgamating with the Hull and Barnsley. In no fewer than three separate Acts of Parliament Is it specifically stated that under no circumstances, without the consent of the Hull Corporation, shall any grouping or any joint scheme come into operation between the Hull and Barnsley and the North Eastern, and it is because of that, more than anything else, that the Hull Corporation and the trading and industrial community of that great city feel that they are being so unjustly treated by this Bill, which I fear will shortly become an Act. The Parliamentary Secretary said there is no case of the North Eastern failing to do its duty. After all, what is the duty of a railway company? It is a very open question, but it seems to me that its duty is to provide the best possible facilities for the people who use the line, and if the North Eastern Railway fails to provide the facilities which are provided by the Hull and Barnsley, surely it is failing in its duty. I have here a letter which I received too late to read out in Committee, which in my opinion shows that the North Eastern have not done all that lies in their power to provide facilities for the people who use the line. This is a letter from a fish merchant in Hull in quite a small way. He is not one of those big corporations which are capable of looking after themselves. He is quite a poor man:

"Dear Sir,

I am writing on behalf of the Hull shell fish trade. This trade is a fairly large one for six or eight months in each year. Also the calf trade, which we might call the veal trade, is a fairly large one in the Spring for three or four months in the year. We are writing for the pre-War delivery of goods to all parts of England. The Hull and Barnsley always delivered shell fish and calves to our customers inland by goods train the next morning after receiving them, and the North Eastern Railway Company never deliver the same class of goods, whenever they have got them, under two, three, or four days, and then mostly unfit for sale and condemned, which always caused a great loss. That is what we have to contend with. But in the event of the Hull and Barnsley amalgamating with the North Eastern, the same delay will happen unless the North Eastern will guarantee the same facility as the Hull and Barnsley gave us before the War. We hope you will be successful enough to prevent the Hull and Barnsley and North Eastern Railway Companies amalgamating, and be lucky enough for the Midland Railway Company to join with the Hull and Barnsley. We cannot send this class of goods by passenger train as it is too expensive and stops trade. We are anxious to get our trade back, which we totally lost through the War, by the Hull and Barnsley again coming to our assistance. Wishing you every success."

That letter shows how these small poor men, who have not powerful corporations at their back, suffer when competition is once removed, and it is for that reason more than anything else that I ask the House to support us in our efforts to secure the inclusion of the Hull and Barnsley not in the North Eastern Group but in the Midland and North Western.

Since the first day this Bill came before the Committee, I have never put in my word, and I would not have intervened now had it not been for this repeated statement that the whole business community of Hull will be grievously injured if the Hull and Barnsley is put into this group. I have been a user of the port of Hull for over 40 years, and I am also the Chairman of the Parliamentary Committee of the Chamber of Shipping, and there has been no complaint made by any user of the port of Hull that the Government Measure is going to be injurious to shipping. On the contrary, I should like to ask those who represent Hull, why it is that Messrs. Wilson, who are the largest shipping firm in Hull, and with whom Hull is intimately identified, have not put forward any objection?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the managing director of the Wilson Line is a director of the North Eastern Railway?

He is not the only member of the firm. If he is interested in the North Eastern Railway, you may get a more unbiassed statement from some of the managers of the company who are not railway directors, but the fact remains that shipping, as a rule, welcomes this change. We have all suffered from time to time more or less from the congestion and trouble that there has been with the various systems in Hull, and I corroborate all that the Parliamentary Secretary has said in regard to the waste that goes on by the competition which has taken place in times gone by and up to the present, and I am convinced that it is going to be for the benefit of Hull itself, whatever the Hull Corporation may think about it. At any rate, I strongly support the Government in the grouping of the Hull and Barnsley with the Eastern Group. It would be a great calamity to the Hull and Barnsley itself, and to the community of Hull, if any other step were taken, and I hope the Government will persevere in resisting the Amendment.

When the Parliamentary Secretary (Mr. Neal) says the North-Eastern will cease to exist under this system, it may possibly in name, but it certainly will not in fact, and I can quite understand that the Minister is very anxious to absorb the Hull and Barnsley line in the system. I have been asked by the South Yorkshire Coalowners' Association, who are more affected by this than anyone else, to oppose as far as I possibly can the amalgamation with the North-Eastern, and to support the amalgamation with the Midland. Speaking geographically, without any knowledge of the situation of the line, you would say it ought auto- matically to go into the North-Eastern, but anyone who knows the enormous coalfields which the Hull and Barnsley with the Midland will tap, and which it certainly can never tap if it is combined with the North-Eastern, must know that physically and rightly it should be absorbed in the Midland and not in the North-Eastern.I cannot understand why the South Yorkshire coalowners, perhaps the largest coalowning field in the country, should be opposed to the scheme the Parliamentary Secretary is supporting if there were the extra charges which he tries to make the House believe, and I have no doubt he believes, but I do not, to handicap their coal for export abroad. The South Yorkshire coalowners are an immense body who depend more largely than anyone else on cheap freight, and if they are opposed to the scheme—and they certainly are—I cannot help thinking that that should have some weight with the House. They are not likely to support a scheme which is going to do them harm. They are more likely to ask us to support a scheme which will do the best for the coal district of South Yorkshire. I hope hon. Members will disabuse their minds of the geographical position, and will be more influenced by the situation of the larger coalfields, which will be more tapped by the Midland and the Hull and Barnsley being combined than they possibly can be in the other case.

I would appeal to the House to come to a decision now. We have discussed this very fully. There is a difference of opinion, but I think all the points are before the House. There are other matters before we reach the time when the Guillotine operates which are very important. It would be the last thing I would wish to shorten discussion on a matter on which very strong feeling is held, but we have discussed this at great length.

I speak with great sympathy for my old friends, but I do not think that their remedy is in this Amendment. The Bill provides greater domination over the ports and docks and canals of the country than hitherto existed, and I only rise to complete, the narrative which my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary began, in which he endeavoured to show that the railway companies by their power and influence can bring to these Eastern ports under the grouping system traffic in such manner as they desire. The real reason why Hull complains is that Hull has greater facilities than other ports on the Eastern Coast other than railway facilities. The traffic at Hull is put over the side, without dock charges, so that the railway companies owning the docks cannot obtain any revenue from traffic which is placed over the side. That traffic is carried in competition with them to the internal ports of the country, over navigations which to a great extent are free, and which to a large extent have been included in this Bill, although it is only a Bill for the reconstruction of railways. There in lies the difficulty of Hull. It cannot be remedied by this Amendment. The Parliamentary Secretary was wrong in saying that the railway companies governing Hull, that is, the North Eastern Railway and the Hull and Barnsley Rail-way, have always worked to the advantage of the Hull docks. Within my own experience in the last two or three years, after an expenditure of some hundreds of thousands of pounds was agreed upon by the managers of both the docks at Hull, it was turned down by the railway companies.

If I speak in spite of the appeal that the Minister made, I can assure the House that it is because I shall not detain it at any length and because there is a case which has not been put exactly as I see it. If the hon. Member who moved the Amendment goes to a Division I shall vote against him and support the Government, as I have done in the past on the same question, and I do so for this reason only, that the Government have laid down in this Bill certain grouping. They have not relied on voluntary grouping. Grouping is imposed on the railway companies, and they have to accept the grouping, but I do regret that this special grouping has been chosen, because I think that if another system had been adopted the public would have been better served. The Minister of Transport and the Parliamentary Secretary have always defended the inclusion of the Hull and Barnsley Railway in the North Eastern group on the ground of what they call the territorial system. They have said that if the Hull and Barnsley Railway was linked up to the North Western and Midland group it would break up the territorial system. Let hon. Members imagine a map of England with a line drawn down the middle, from the Tweed to the Thames. All on the right side of that line is the territory of the North Eastern group. I admit that territorial possession. Into that group the North Western group only come at Tilbury on the Thames and at Goole on the Humber. Therefore the North Western group are shut off entirely from the East Coast, and the great ports of Immingham, Hull, Sunderland, Hartle-pool, and the Tyne. If you look at the other side of England a totally different state of things prevail. Into Bristol three groups run, into Manchester and Liver-pool two groups run. The Eastern group stretches out its long arm to the West Coast, but the Western group does not stretch out its right arm to the East Coast. If it is wrong for the Hull and Barnsley Railway to be linked up with the Midland, so that the North Western group could touch the Humber, why is it right for the Great Northern and the Great Central as part of the Eastern group to go into Liverpool? If you defend this on the territorial system you have no case. In fact the system is not a territorial system, it is partly territorial and partly balance of power. As far as balance of power is concerned, your power is better balanced if the Hull and Barnsley Railway is linked up with the North Western group, which is physically joins, so that the North Western group could have the same access to the East Coast that the Eastern group has to the West Coast.

A good deal of play was made as to the difficulty at Hull and as to jealousies and dislocation. I do not quarrel with the fact that the Eastern group comes to Manchester and Liverpool they are entitled to do so. The railways with which my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Ban-bury) and myself are associated have been alongside each other in Liverpool for many years, and we have not quarrelled, and surely the system which prevails at Liverpool and Manchester could prevail in Hull. Why rule out the possibility of an agreement because two different groups run into Hull? Why should the Humber be so different from the Mersey? We can agree on the Mersey, why not agree on, the Humber? The answer that the Parlia- mentary Secretary gave is that the Western group has running powers to the East coast ports, and that these powers are protected in this Bill. Running powers are one thing, but a solid line of railway is another. The Eastern group have far more than running powers into the West coast ports; they go over a joint line of their own into separate stations. When the Parliamentary Secretary said that the right arm of the Western group did stretch into Hull because running powers exist he forgot that the right arm is severed physically at Cudworth, and the extension has only the shadowy result of one Clause in an Act of Parliament. You can repeal a Clause in an Act of. Parliament, but you cannot repeal geography, and the fact remains that you have not balanced your system. You have, and, I think, quite rightly, included in your North Eastern group companies which run through to the Great Western ports, but you have not included in your Western group the only company that could give the Western group acess to the Eastern ports. I need not trouble the House explaining the enormous amount of traffic that passes from Lancashire to the Eastern ports and the Continent; it is an immense trade. If the Minister had looked more to the balance of power when he came to consider the Eastern group and less to the strict territorial argument, he would have produced a machine that would have served the public better. It is in the public interest that the North Western group should have actual access to the Eastern ports. However, the Committee expressed its opinion upstairs, and I accept the Bill, but the responsibility for the grouping is with the Government. I feel bound to accept the grouping at their hands, but at the same time I think they have made a mistake.

I think the Minister of Transport should make some reply to the very powerful argument put forward by the hon. Member for Durham (Major Hills). These arguments will appeal to hon. Members as being very weighty, and removing this case from one of purely parochial interest, which some hon. Members seem to think it is, to one which affects the vital interests of the country as a whole. The Members for Hull, in their opposition to the grouping of the Hull and Barnsley Railway in this Bill, are not acting in the interests of any railway company, or of any particular vested interest. The opposition from Hull has come from Hull as a whole and in particular by the Corporation. This is a matter which Hull has taken very much to heart, and on which the City is entirely united. The House will see from the statement of the hon. Member for Durham that this is not a matter which affects Hull alone. The Western ports will have the advantage of being served by several groups. If this Bill had done what the Labour party stands up for, namely, to nationalise the whole of the country and to eliminate competition entirely, I could understand the Labour party objecting to the claims of Hull as they are put forward now, but the Bill does nothing of the sort. It has been admitted by chairmen of railways and railway directors that there will be very acute competition between the groups. If the Western ports are to have the benefit of this competition, why is Hull alone selected to be deprived of competition which it at present enjoys? The Minister of Transport has made several speeches on this subject, but he has never answered that point. He scrupulously avoids it. He has never said why ports like Manchester, Liverpool, and Bristol should have the benefit of competition between groups, while Hull alone is selected to be deprived of that competition. Hull is in this further position, which makes it incredible that she should be selected in this way, that she has several statutory safeguards which were thought to be sufficient to protect Hull from the loss of competition. The other ports are not in that position, and yet they are to enjoy the benefit of competition. We ought to have some answer to that strong point. The Minister of Transport has said: ordinary cartage, surely that can all be remedied under Clause 74 of the Bill, which says explicitly:

Why should not the economies which the Bill is to achieve be effected just as readily if the Hull and Barnsley were part of the Midland Group, as if it were part of the Eastern Group? Surely all the savings on overhead charges, and all the economies which he is going to achieve by grouping together these large railways, would be obtained just as readily, as efficiently, and as easily, if the Hull and Barnsley Railway were part of the Midland Group, as if it were part of the Eastern Group. The only case of any sort that he can make is by mentioning a few trumpery wagons having to remain on sidings, or saying that there is a certain amount of cartage. Would the people of Hull be so strong on this point if there were any doubt in their minds that under the provisions of our Amendment you would be increasing the expense of the port and causing waste which ought to be avoided. The port of Hull is notoriously the cheapest port in the whole of the country. Ask any trader who has to deal with goods going through the port of Hull, and he will tell you that they are conveyed through Hull more cheaply than through any other port in the country. Yet we have it said, that Hull is the classic instance of waste in the whole country. I submit that is a gross misrepresentation of the facts of the case.

This Amendment is a reasonable one. We do not attack the fundamentals of the Bill. We do not in any way interfere with the right hon. Gentleman effecting all the economies, which we hope he will effect, though we very much doubt it. All we ask is that the port of Hull should, at any rate, not merely because it happens to enjoy a unique statutory position, but quite apart from that, enjoy the same facilities and be treated as fairly in the matter of facilities as the great ports of Liverpool and Manchester. This is a big public question. The country as a whole would benefit from some form of competition. This competition is left out of this Bill in reference to the services on the eastern coast. At present the only outlet on the east coast which the western railways will have is the port of Goole, whereas on the western coast the eastern railways will have access to nearly all the ports. I submit that that is not a good thing for the country. The country will be placing itself in the hands of a very large monopoly on the east coast, which, however carefully it is watched, may result in very serious detriment to the country.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman (Major Entwistle) who has just sat down alluded to the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Durham (Major Hills) and said that it requires an answer. My hon. and gallant Friend has answered himself, for he thinks so little of his argument that he is going to vote against it when we go to a Division. Therefore, I need not occupy the House any longer with my hon. and gallant Friend, except to say that the Western Group can get into the port of Hull as they have running powers over the North Eastern. The hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Major Entwistle) has put the case on totally different grounds. He says that the Corporation of Hull entered into an agreement that this railway was not to be handed over to any other railway. He says, "What hard lines that this agreement should be broken!" May I point out that, when that agreement was made, it was the considered opinion of Parliament that amalgamations were bad in the interests of the public, and no amalgamations were sanctioned by Parliament except on very onerous terms. Now, the Government, perhaps for excellent reasons, are altering that. They say that there ought to be amalgamations on certain conditions. Therefore they put the Hull and Barnsley with the North Eastern. That, as my hon. and gallant Friend admits, is the correct grouping, if grouping is to be on a territorial basis. The hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite

is not consistent. If he said that, in view of the undertaking that was given to the Hull Corporation when this line was made, the Hull and Barnsley should be a separate line and not amalgamated or grouped with any other, there might be something in his argument; but he does not do that, and I do not understand how he can support a Bill which makes amalgamation compulsory.

If the right hon. Baronet will look on the Paper, he will find an Amendment in the name of the Members for Hull to that effect.

I am glad to hear it. But the hon. and gallant Gentleman now says that he wants amalgamation with another railway. Therefore, the only question is not whether, in terms of this agreement with the Corporation, the Hull and Barnsley is not to amalgamate with any railway, but whether it is to amalgamate with the Eastern Group or the Western Group. In those circumstances, as it is in the territory of the Eastern Group, I do not think it necessary to discuss the matter any further.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 49; Noes, 229.

Division No. 334.]

AYES.

[5.43 p.m.

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Rose, Frank H.

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Royce, William Stapleton

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Hayward, Evan

Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

Cape, Thomas

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Casey, T. W.

Hirst, G. H.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Cautley, Henry Strother

Hogge, James Myles

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

Holmes, J. Stanley

Tickler, Thomas George

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Wignall, James

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Kenyon, Barnet

Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Forrest, Walter

Kiley, James Daniel

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

France, Gerald Ashburner

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Winterton, Earl

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Mills, John Edmund

Galbralth, Samuel

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Glanville, Harold James

Nield, Sir Herbert

Colonel L. Ward and Mr. Murchl-son.

Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Grundy, T. W.

Rendall, Athelstan

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Brown, T. W. (Down, North)

Armstrong, Henry Bruce

Bethell, Sir John Henry

Bruton, Sir James

Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

Bctterton, Henry B.

Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

Blrchall, Major J. Dearman

Buckley, Lieut. -Colonel A.

Atkey, A. R.

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Baird, Sir. John Lawrence

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Burgoyne, Lt-Col. Alan Hughes

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Blair, Sir Reginald

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Borwick, Major G. O.

Butcher, Sir John George

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Cairns, John

Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Campbell, J. D. G.

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)

Barnsten, Major Harry

Bcyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.i

Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

Brassey, H. L. C.

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Lady wood)

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Breese, Major Charles E.

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Clough, Sir Robert

Irving, Dan

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Cockerlll, Brigadier-General G. K.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Cohen, Major J. Brunei

Jameson, John Gordon

Ratcliffe, Henry Butler

Colfox, Major Win. Phillips

Jesson, C.

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Remer, J. R.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Johnstone, Joseph

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Daiziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Davidson, J. C. C. (Kernel Hempstead)

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clltheroe)

Kennedy, Thomas

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Rodger, A. K.

Oavison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)

Roundel), Colonel R. F.

Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

Lewis, Rt. Hen. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund

Dockrell, Sir Maurice

Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Doyle, N. G rattan

Lindsay, William Arthur

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Lloyd, George Butler

Seddon, J. A.

Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham, S.)

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Sexton, James

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tlngd'n)

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Lorden, John William

Simm, M. T.

Elveden, Viscount

Lort-Williams, J.

Smithers, Sir Alfred W.

Evans, Ernest

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Spoor, B. G.

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Lowther, Major C. (Cumberland, N)

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Fade, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Ablngdon)

Stanier, Captain Sir Seville

Farquharson, Major A. C.

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Stanton, Charles Butt

Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

M'Connell, Thomas Edward

Stewart, Gershom

Ford, Patrick Johnston

M' Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.

Sturrock, J. Leng

Forestier-Walker, L.

Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Macklnder, Sir H. J. (Camlachle)

Sugden, W. H.

Fremantle, Lieut. -Colonel Francis E.

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge)

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Swan, J. E.

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Macquisten, F. A.

Taylor, J.

Gilbert, James Daniel

Magnus, Sir Philip

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Gllmour, Lieut. -Colonel Sir John

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Glyn, Major Ralph

Manville, Edward

Thomas, Brig. -Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

Thomas-Stanford, Charles

Grant, James Augustus

Matthews, David

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Middlebrook, Sir William

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Greer, Harry

Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhlll)

Gregory, Holman

Mitchell, Sir William Lane

Thorpe, Captain John Henry

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Moles, Thomas

Townley, Maximilian G.

Hallwood, Augustine

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers

Hall, Lieut. -Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Moore- Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Tryon, Major George Clement

Hall, Rr- Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

Morden, Col. W. Grant

Wallace, Thomas Brown (West Down)

Halls, Walter

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

Morris, Richard

Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

Hanna, George Boyle

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Waterson, A. E.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

Whitla, Sir William

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Neal, Arthur

Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald

Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

Herbert, Col. Hon A. (Yeovll)

Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

Wilson, James (Dudley)

Hills, Major John Waller

Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

Hinds, John

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Wise, Frederick

Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Parker, James

Yeo, Sir Alfred William

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.)

Pearce, Sir William

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Younger, Sir George

Hopkins, John W. W.

Percy, Charles (Tynemouth)

Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

Perkins, Walter Frank

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Plnkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.

Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G.

Pratt, John William

Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

Purchase, H. G.

Second Schedule

Board Of Directors of Amalgamated Company

Part I.—First Year

1. For the period commencing on the date when the amalgamation scheme comes into operation and ending on the date of the general meeting of the amalgamated company in the following year, the company shall be directed by a board consisting of such number of persons not exceeding in the case of the North Western, Midland, and West Scottish Group, and the North Eastern, Eastern, and East Scottish Group, twenty-eight; in the case of the Western Group, twenty-five; and in the case of the Southern Group, twenty-one, as may be fixed by the scheme elected by the proprietors of the several constituent com panies.

2. Before the date when the amalgamation scheme comes into operation the proprietors of each constituent company shall elect from amongst the directors of the company holding office at the time such number as may be fixed by the scheme to serve as directors of amalgamated companies as aforesaid.

3. The directors so elected shall hold office until the date of the said general meeting and shall then retire, but any director so retiring may, if otherwise qualified, be elected as a director of the company under the provisions hereinafter contained.

4. In the event of a casual vacancy occurring during the said period amongst the directors, the vacancy shall be filled by a person co-opted by the other directors, being a person who was a director of the constituent company by the proprietors of which the vacating director was elected.

Part II.—After the First Year

1. As from the date of the general meeting of the amalgamated company in the year following that in which the amalgamation scheme comes into operation, the company shall be directed by a board of directors consisting in the case of the North Western, Midland, and West Scottish Group and the North Eastern, Eastern, and East Scottish Group, of twenty-eight; in the case of the Western Group of twenty-five, and in the case of the Southern Group of twenty-one members elected by the proprietors of the company, of whom four at least shall be persons having substantial trading interests in the area served by the amalgamated company.

2. The qualification of a director shall be the holding in his own right of such amount of the share capital of the amalgamated company as may be specified in the scheme, and, subject as hereinafter provided, the term of office of such a director shall be three years, but on retirement he may, if otherwise qualified, be re-elected.

3. Any casual vacancy occurring among the directors shall be filled by a person co-opted by the other directors, and any director co-opted to fill a casual vacancy shall hold office for the same period as that for which his predecessor would have held office.

4. On the first election of directors, one-third of the total number of directors, or if their number is not a multiple of three then the number nearest to but not exceeding one-third (failing agreement to be selected by lot) shall be deemed to have been elected for one year, and one-third or such nearest number as aforesaid (failing agreement to be selected by lot) for two years.

5. Subject to the foregoing provisions of this Schedule, the provisions of the Companies Clauses (Consolidation) Act, 1846, with respect to the appointment and rotation of directors shall apply.

I beg to move, in Part I, paragraph (1), after the word "persons," to insert the words "of whom seven shall be elected from and by the workers on the amalgamated companies."

The effect of the Amendment is that of the 21 directors of an amalgamated company, seven will be elected from and by the workers of the amalgamated group—that is, one in three. In the larger amalgamations, for which there are larger directorates, the number of workers' representatives will still be seven, and therefore the proportion will be smaller. I am not much concerned about the proportion, but I am concerned about the principle. I would have been content with a smaller number, a thinner end of the wedge. I have put down the number "seven" because that was the number proposed by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) in Committee, and I have simply taken his figure. The principle is the joint control of industry. I believe that if that principle were adopted throughout the country, it would do more than anything else to lessen the number of industrial disputes. The underlying cause of most of our industrial troubles is mistrust, born of ignorance and prejudice, operating in an atmosphere of sheer irresponsibility. In most cases you find employers on the one side and workmen on the other glaring at each other and simply paddling their own canoes in such a way as to extract, each of them, as much as they can out of the product of their joint industry, and as a rule, having little to do one with the other. It is obvious that the best results cannot be obtained from industry under those conditions. The object of my Amendment is to introduce into the railway industry something in the nature of goodwill and co-operation, with a view of getting for the workman inside knowledge and thereby giving him a sense of responsibility.

It will be objected by my genial and right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) that inasmuch as the workers contribute no capital to the £1,300,000,000 they have no right to anything in the nature of represeentation. To that I reply, in the first place, that the workman contributes his labour, and that that is his capital. We shall never get any "forrader" in regard to the settlement of industrial troubles by merely arguing in a vacuum, so to speak, of abstract right on one side or the other. We have to settle these matters on the lines of common-sense and give-and-take, and although it is perfectly true that workmen contribute none of the money, yet their interest is exactly the same, as the interest of the shareholders who do contribute the money, that is to say, both of them are interested in running a concern-as efficiently and productively as possible. It would be in the interests of the shareholders if workmen were associated with them and knew all the inside facts in regard to any industrial situation at any particular time.

There is another argument which, I anticipate, will be used against me by the right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. J. H. Thomas). He will say that I am proposing to upset a bargain made outside. That is perfectly true, but it is not a conclusive argument against the Amendment. I do not want to say anything disparaging to those who made this bargain, as well as other bargains. In a Bill full of technical details, as this Bill is, of course it was necessary that there should be some provisional agreements made outside by those who knew all the facts. It was necessary that the Minister of Transport should have been advised by the workmen on the one side and the employers on the other. I make no complaint and no attack on those who made the bargain. But that does not absolve the House from examining the bargain. The House of Commons is the authority. There is a great difference between the matter dealt with in my Amendment and the technical matters to which I have referred. The House of Commons is not a suitable body to adjudicate between one side and the other in regard to technical affairs; at least it is not as well suited for that as to decide on matters of general principle. I am raising a matter of general principle. Although the bargain has been made it does not absolve us. There are bargains and bargains. There may be bargains that are good from the point of view of the particular interests of those who make them, and there may be bargains which, although good in that way, are bad from the point of view of public policy. I submit that this bargain is of that character.

What is the bargain? So far as my memory serves me, the Minister of Transport, in introducing the Bill, said that the Government had put forward the framework of a Bill and had included in that framework a provision for the workmen having representation on the Board of Directors. That framework of a Bill was submitted to the employers and to the workmen, and as a result the provision for representation on the Board of Directors was eliminated. As I understood the Minister, he said that it was eliminated practically by the workmen in consideration of getting a quid pro quo in the shape of a national Wages Board. On that strictly sectional or technical aspect of the matter I submit that it is a bad bargain, because they have not a national Wages Board, except in so far as the other side allow them to have that Wages Board. The Bill authorises either side to give 12 months' notice, and on the giving of that 12 months' notice the national Wages Board ceases to exist. Further, the 12 months' notice can be given 12 months before the amalgamation schemes begin to operate, and therefore the Wages Board may cease to exist on the very day that the amalgamation schemes begin to operate. That is a plain and straightforward view of the case. Whatever the dates may be, the fact remains that the one side can terminate the Wages Board on giving 12 months' notice. That is my point. From the narrow point of view, I submit that the right hon. Member for Derby has made a bad bargain. He has given up something and got nothing, or very little, in return. I do not want to press that argument. This House ought to look on this particular bargain from the point of view of public policy. I submit to the right hon. Member for Derby that the representatives of the railway workers had in their hands the interests not only of the railway employes, but the interests of all the workmen of this country. I believe that the interests of the workmen generally were prejudiced by the giving up of this right. After all, it was a right. The Government had said more than once through the mouth of the Minister that they intended to put their backs into the proposition put forward in the first instance, and therefore the door, so to speak, was ajar. Instead of the right hon. Member for Derby and his Friends behind him pushing that door open, as they ought to have done in the interests of labour generally, they closed it, and thereby close*d the avenue to one of the finest opportunities that has been presented to the workmen in my time.

6.0 P.M.

The case made by the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, is that those of us who are charged with the responsibility of safe-guarding the interests of the railwaymen, made a bad bargain, which he now asks Parliament to review. Speaking as an old trade union official, he believes we have not only made a mistakes but have very seriously betrayed the trust reposed in us. In a few words, that is the case he puts to the House. On the latter point, I will only remind him, in the friendliest possible way, that he has been out of the movement for a long time, or he would not raise an argument of that kind. When he talks of that good feeling between employers and employes, of the relationship that we all desire and of real joint control, does he imagine they can all be brought about by an Act of Parliament? Just fancy talking about improving the relationship between employer and employe, and getting a good working arrangement, by any Act of Parliament which first sought to impose upon the employers conditions which they absolutely refused to accept. Let me remind my right hon. Friend (Mr. Barnes) that the right hon. Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) applauded some of his sentiments and that it was the right hon. Baronet, who first gave the answer to this proposal. Directly the Government made known their proposals, and those proposals were embodied in a White Paper, the railway chairmen gave their answer through the various shareholders' meetings, and the right hon. Baronet then made it perfectly clear what his views were as to workmen sitting on boards of directors.

That being so, you will observe that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Barnes) is in this position, that the right hon. Baronet with whom he seeks to hitch us up as directors has said that he will not have us—that he will have nothing to do with us whatever. Yesterday he moved to upset the agreement we had made. Then the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Barnes) assumes that you are going to get a good relationship between employers and employes in such circumstances as those. It is all humbug to think so. We were faced with this difficulty, that the railway companies said through their chairmen, "This is an impossible scheme; we will not have it, and our shareholders will not have it." We had to see whether we could not get something which would enable both sides to come together. We decided on the present scheme. It was said during the. Second Reading Debate that this scheme was forced upon us. I think the statement was made in the House, that the unions were coerced into it. I want to-make it perfectly clear that we were coerced by nobody. If we have made a mistake, the responsibility is ours, but we do not believe we have made a mistake.

The general managers, after all, are the directing.influence in connection with the railways, notwithstanding what is said about the directors. The general managers compose the directing body who run the railways, and if they and their officers evolve a scheme, which enables the workmen and themselves to-meet, then I put it to you, that by both sides agreeing to that machinery, you are much more likely to be successful than if you force something-on one body, and say, "You have got to work this in the interests of good feeling between both." If the railway directors had welcomed the innovation, of course we would have jumped at it, but what earthly good is it to say by Act of Parliament to them, "You must have these men as directors," and then assume that all is going to work smoothly. It is going to do nothing of the kind, and instead of making a bad bargain, I would say we have done quite the contrary. A body of 500,000 men is not an easy body to control. It is a fairly formidable body, and a body containing varied opinions, and taking the position generally since the War, I would ask the House of Commons to show its appreciation of the fact that there is at least a desire, on the part of the railway-men, for peace. A sum of £17,000,000 has been taken off their wages in two cuts. You got no complaint; you had no quarrel: there has been no agitation and it is not an easy thing to take money off working men's wages. When these men have accepted the position in that way is it not another piece of evidence that they want to be honourable in the bargain they have made?

That is the point. The second point is that we have got unanimity be- tween the general managers and ourselves on a working scheme, and I believe there is a genuine desire on the part of the railway companies, taken as a whole, to try to get themselves and their men together and hammer out a solution of all differences. In the scheme we have agreed upon practically nothing is excluded. There is an opportunity for the most minor grievances being examined. Incidentally, may I say, that great labour disputes do not always arise from wage questions and hours questions. More great industrial disputes have been caused by little pin-pricks than by these bigger causes. Our object is to evolve machinery to deal with all these matters, and we believe we will succeed in doing so. At all events, we are going to try, and if the railway companies try as well, the greater chance will there be for the development of this scheme. If, as a result, we have closer co-operation, better understanding, and a better mutual knowledge between both sides, then it may come about that the railway directors themselves will see the necessity of the very extension which my right hon. Friend the Mover of the Amendment proposes. Until you bring that about, I ask him not to put us into a difficult position. The agreement that we made was made on the understanding that we should not go on with this particular proposal. If he divides on this Amendment, I shall go into the Lobby against it.

What will be the consequences outside? I want you to face that. I shall go into the Lobby against it, because I have signed an agreement and I am going to keep it. Then I shall have those who are always attacking us, who do not believe in close co-operation at all, who believe that the right policy is always fighting and always "rowing" with the railway companies—I shall have them turning round and saying: "Look at the vote in the House of Commons. Thomas actually voted against having workers as directors on the railway boards." Of course, the whole facts will not be explained, and people will not understand the situation as we do now. That is the kind of thing that always takes place. Just as in the case of the Division on the question of directors' salaries last week, some people are waiting to exploit this point. It will be said: "Thomas also voted for the rail- way directors' compensation and that is the best evidence of his being against the men." I ask my right hon. Friend not to put us in that difficulty. It is unfair to the whole House of Commons. It is unfair to those who believe, as I do, in. the very principle he is contending for. I am not quarreling with the principle, because I believe the ideal state to be that in which employers and workmn are joint partners, but I do not think we have reached that stage yet. I believe the arrangement we have already made is an arrangement that will tend to order. It will be administered in a proper spirit by both sides. There will be a grave responsibility on anybody who breaks it up, and if there is a Division I will stand by my bargain and vote against my right hon. Friend. As one who desires the same thing as he desires in this Amendment; as one who thinks with him, and who would be prepared to support his ideal, I say he is not serving that ideal in the right way at this moment. Let us rather encourage employer and employç to understand each other better The scheme arrived at, in my judgment, would be a much better way of bringing that about than by forcing it on people by an Act of Parliament which they do not want.

I feel very greatly the force of what has been said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby, and I put it to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Gorbals (Mr. Barnes) whether, after that speech, he still desires to proceed with his Amendment. At the same time I venture to say a few words of appeal to the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) and his colleagues, asking them to reconsider their attitude on this question. I am not going to go into the question of whether the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby made a good or a bad bargain. I recognise fully the great difficulty he was in. It may be, for aught I know, that he made the best bargain he could in the circumstances. This does, however, show to me the inevitable disadvantage of a Bill founded on agreements of this kind. You are exposed to all the suggestions which the right hon. Gentleman has indicated, and at the same time, if you upset these bargains, you destroy the foundation on which the Bill is based, and thus you are put into a false position. On the other hand, here is a proposal which goes to the very root of the relations between capital and labour, and I deeply regret that the House is precluded, by reason of the agreement arrived at, from discussing, in the dry light of reason and from a broad point of view, what is really ultimately to the advantage of the relations between capital and labour. It is only because I think it is a question of such importance, and because it is a question to which I have given a great deal of attention, that, at the risk of wearying the House, I am going to ask them to listen to me for a few minutes on the general principle involved in the Amendment. I know it is said that capital alone is entitled to manage industry. It is said that if you carry out a proposal such as this, you are going to put into the position of managing industry those who have not contributed anything financially to that industry. I ask the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) and his colleagues to consider very carefully whether or not that is really a sound argument. The interest of labour, even financial, is proportionately quite as great as the interest of capital, and I am not talking only of railways. Supposing it is true that by reason of the failure or bad management of an industry capital is losing some of its income, it may lose the whole of it. and it is a very serious matter, but if the concern goes bankrupt labour loses the whole means of making its livelihood. It may get employment elsewhere, it is true.

Supposing the result is that the assets and expenditure are level, the labourer gets his wages, but the shareholder gets nothing.

The labourer gets his wages for a certain time, but not permanently, and the right hon. Baronet is assuming that the shareholder will be content to go on earning no income. It may be true. I am not saying that in every respect they are equal, but I am saying that, looked at fairly, even the financial interest of labour in the prosperity of industry is as great as the financial interest of capital. The two are indissoluble; there is no conflict between the two. The livelihood of the working man depends on the successful conduct of industry, just the same as the profits of the capitalist depend on the same cause, and therefore I am unable to accept as a theoretical objection the proposition that capital alone ought to manage industry, because it alone is financially interested. Surely the real question to ask is, What on the whole will be the best means for carrying on the industry in question, what will really make for the success of the undertaking? To my mind, the vital thing we have got to face in this country— quite vital, although there is' for the moment a lull, and I am delighted that there should be a lull, in industrial controversy—is how we are to get labour and capital working heartily and convincedly together. That is the real point, the real problem, the greatest problem of social reform that faces the country at the present moment. Would it not contribute to the smoother working of industry, would you not get a greater interest in the success of an industry, if you gave to the workers a share in the management, and therefore a share in the responsibility for the success of a concern?

I am told by some of my hon. and right hon. Friends opposite that it would make for the disorganisation of industry, and that you would have imported into the directors' board-room an atmosphere of controversy which is happily absent now, as I am led to believe. I do not want to press examples too far, but those who have studied this question would, I am sure, agree with me that where you have provided for the representation of working men on the boards of directors no such result has followed. I do not believe that in the number of cases—and there are quite a number—in which it has been tried anyone can cite a single instance where it has led to anything like disunion or disorganisation in the direction of the concern. I personally do not myself see why it should. Once you get the working man on to the board he looks at the thing from the same point of view. He is, after all, exceedingly like the other directors in every respect, intellectually and morally, because he is of the same race and belongs to the same country, and he looks at the thing broadly and from the same point of view. He begins to regard it from the point of view of directing the concern. No doubt he has his own bias, just as the other directors have their own bias, but he will look at it from the point of view of making the concern a success, and that is the fundamental principle on which every Englishman, I venture to say, engages in any concern, whether public or private. I cannot help feeling that that would be so enormous an advantage, so gigantic an advantage, to our industry in general that it is worth some risk, even if there is a risk, to try for such a result as that. I know there are hon. and right hon. Friends of mine opposite who think, very naturally, that directors are all marvellous men.

All except themselves, naturally, but that all their colleagues are marvellous men, and that it is quite incredible that a working man should ever rise to that level. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] I am very glad to hear that that is disputed, because, certainly, I am sure it is inaccurate. I cannot tell the House how important I think this matter, and how deeply I regret that we are precluded from pressing it to a Division, as I think we are precluded, in view of the circumstances of the case. To my mind, you have got to face that proposition in industry which we faced years ago in the political side of our life. You have got to recognise that in the management of industry, just as in the management of public affairs, those who are engaged in it and dependent on it will never be satisfied until they have been given a real share in its management. It is not a very unreasonable demand. I am satisfied that if any Member of this House was placed in the position of a working man in any of these industries, he would wish to have a say in the conditions of his life and in the way in which the industry on which he depended was carried on. I think we have got to face the same demand sooner or later as our forefathers demanded and succeeded in obtaining the settlement of a similar demand in the political sphere. We may do it now, when things are quiet and it can be done peacefully and without irritation, as it might have been done when Pitt proposed Parliamentary reform in the early part of last century or the latter part of the previous century, or we may wait until the matter has become a very urgent question and is pressed upon this House with all the force of political agitation, and some Measure is at last hurried through the House which will not be satisfactory and which will not be a just Measure. I should regret that very much.

I think this proposal is vital to labour. It is much more vital to capital, and it is on that ground, and that ground chiefly, that I venture to press it on the House, and to ask those who represent the directors and the management of capital in this House, to consider carefully whether they are really acting wisely in resisting this request that the men shall be given, not the control of the industry, but a voice in its management, a sense of its responsibility, a position which will bind them to the success of the undertaking, and whether they are really wise in saying they will decline to do that now; that they will hope, with the right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) that it may grow in the future, but that now, when they really have an opportunity for trying this great plan under very favourable circumstances, they deliberately reject it and insist on going back to a plan which so far has not been fruitful in success, and which, unless it is modified in the way suggested by the right hon. Member for Derby, cannot fail, as far as I can see, to land us, sooner or later, into considerable difficulties.

I think I could almost say that I agree with everything that has been said by the Mover of the Amendment and by my two right hon. Friends who have followed. The subject is one of great importance and upon which there are diverse views. I thought it was right at the time when I put the proposal into the original White Paper. I have never changed my opinion, and I still think it would have been right. I think it was peculiarly applicable to railways, because, unless those who make the chief demand upon the resources of the railway undertakings in the matter of wages—and wages are a very large percentage of the railway expenditure— know exactly the result of the raising of charges, they have no measure to go by in making their demands and to restrain them from asking too much, because there is no market price to regulate this commodity of transportation, and for that reason I thought that railways, with certain other industries, were peculiarly those in which this step should have been taken. But having said that, and even though I know that there are many individuals responsible for the direction of our railways who think alike and with us on this subject, there was not one single board, as far as I know, that was prepared to accept it. That meant the compulsion of a measure of this kind upon railway undertakings where not one single board was prepared to accept it.

When my right hon. Friend (Mr. Thomas) and those for whom he speaks found that, and came to the conclusion that there were other things which they valued very much and where good will was equally essential, when they came to the conclusion that this measure of a share in the direction was not worth having if it was brought about by compulsion, they were bound to come to this position, that the time is not ripe for this step forward in that particular industry. I also feel this. The industry as a whole is strongly against the men going on to the boards, but nationally we are against compulsion. We do not like compulsion. Sometimes we have to have compulsion, but in a matter of this kind, where good will. is really the essence of it, we must avoid compulsion when we can, and I believe, taking the facts as I have explained, that the time is not ripe for it, when neither side really wishes it now, for various reasons, and also having regard to the fact that it may come voluntarily, as I feel it will. I believe that if the good will which is started by this arrangement is developed, if gradually the position of the two sides, when they get together, as they will on these boards, is made clearer to both, what we might have forced through by compulsion here we may get by a voluntary arrangement, and then it will be more successful. The subject is one on which one could talk for a very long time. I understand my right hon. Friend (Mr. Barnes) does not propose to divide the House, or in any case I would appeal to him not to divide the House. We have a great deal to do. The Guillotine falls at 7.30, and there are certain Amendments which are very important, which are agreed, and which the Government wish to accept, but which will come under the Guillotine and be passed over unless we can come to them before that time. Therefore, if no practical result can come from a Division, I appeal to the House to shorten the discussion on this question.

To facilitate the end at which the right hon. Gentleman aims, and at which I feel we all aim, is it not possible for him to strike out the qualifications of the directors? There is no necessity for stating the qualification of a director, unless you put it in the articles, and that would make it very much easier for the shareholders themselves, who are, perhaps, only too anxious to appoint one of their own staff to the board. Shareholders would only be too glad, possibly, to have an efficient servant on the board as he might be very much better than some directors, who, it seems, are often appointed because of the size of their banking account.

An appeal has been made to me by my right hon. Friend opposite to withdraw the Amendment. I am sure I do not wish to put him or his friends in an awkward position. I shall withdraw the Amendment. I may say I should have withdrawn it much more willingly, had there been a word or two from someone representing the railway directors in this House. I have a particular reason for saying that. Upstairs, at one of the earlier meetings, when those who were pushing a certain view with regard to Scottish affairs, with the railway directors on the other side, I heard an incidental observation from a railway manager, that they regarded this scheme for a national wages board as a mere temporary arrangement. I have mentioned that upstairs more than Once. I have appealed more than once to, the railway directors to put another interpretation upon what is in the Bill, and, up to this moment, not a single railway director has ever said anything contrary to what that particular manager said upstairs. That is very regrettable.

With your permission, Sir, may I say the right hon. Gentleman has raised something which is very serious? All I have to say is that, when I, as responsible for this great mass of men, made this bargain, I made it believing that, on the employers' side, it would be honourably kept. I have no evidence whatever up to now that that is not intended. If there are any people who do not intend to keep that bargain, all I can say is that the responsibility will be theirs. I hope that, in the inter- ests of peace, they will keep their bargain. If they break it, they must take the responsibility.

The remark to which the right hon. Gentleman alluded was not made in Committee upstairs, but at a meeting of the Scottish members and the Scottish railway companies.

I hope I did not convey to the House that the observation was made in Committee. I did not intend to convey that.

It was made at the meeting, and I think it was a most unfortunate remark. It has coloured the actions of my right hon. Friend ever since in Committee, and it was immediately repudiated by everyone there.

This is the first time I have heard it repudiated. I raised this point two or three times in Committee, and have invited railway directors to repudiate what was said on their behalf, speaking as a representative of one of the largest railway companies in Scotland, and, up to this moment, I have not heard a single word by a railway director to disclaim it.

May I say that I accept this arrangement without any reservation whatever? I know, in saying that, I speak for the vast majority of railway directors.

I know that the officials of the particular company with which I am identified have been largely concerned with this arrangement, and they look for its happy endurance far into the future. They intend to work it sympathetically, and ensure, as far as they can, that it shall be productive of the happiest relations between employers and employed.

I am very glad to hear those declarations at last, and I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments made: In Part II, paragraph 1, after the word "consisting," insert the words

"of such number of members elected by the proprietors of the company as may be specified in the scheme not exceeding."

Leave out the word "of" ["and East Scottish group, of twenty-eight"].

Leave out the word "of" ["Western group of twenty-five"].

Leave out the word "of" ["Southern group of twenty-one"].

Leave out the words "elected by the proprietors of the company."—[ Sir E. Geddes. ]

I beg to move, in Part II, paragraph 1, to leave out the words

"of whom four at least shall be persons having substantial trading interests in the area served by the amalgamated company."

The object of this Amendment is to leave to the proprietors of the several amalgamated groups absolutely unfettered discretion in connection with their own directorates. The words I move to omit are, obviously, limiting words, and I think, in regard to them, there has been a good deal of misconception. The question I want to put to the House is this: Why should the proprietors be compelled to elect to the directorate persons whose interests may or may not be in accord with their own? Something was said by my hon. Friend (Mr. Macquisten) as to the desirability of leaving to the proprietors unfettered choice, and I entirely agree. The effect of this Amendment is also to unfetter their choice, and in that connection I should like to read a very few sentences from a letter which I have received from a large railway shareholder, personally unknown to me. He writes:

"In shipping, brewing, and other industries, the directors are frequently the largest shareholders, and it is, therefore, to their great personal interest to see that matters are right for their companies; but in the railway world a director is frequently a trader sending a great quantity of goods over the line, in which his holding of railway stock is, or may be, negligible, compared with his other interest."

That is, I think, an opinion shared by a very considerable number of railway proprietors, who desire in the election of their directors the same unfettered liberty as is permitted to the shareholders in other companies. In this Bill, as it stands, the principle has been definitely accepted, that the directorate, limited though its powers may be by various bureaucratic machines, still shall be representative, so far as it goes, of the proprietors; but, in the words at present in the Schedule, you are limiting the application of that sound principle. In other parts of the Bill you have taken, as I submit, very ample precautions that the interests of the users of the railways shall have their full weight. In discussing an Amendment, yesterday, it was ultimately decided that no less than four members of the National Wages Board shall be representative of the interests of the users of the railways. It would not be in order for me to go back upon the discussion we had on that point yesterday, but I do say that, having agreed to the constitution of that National Board, having accepted that portion of the Bill, there is the less reason to redouble your precautions by the condition you are now proposing. If the proprietors think that large local traders are the persons best qualified to manage their company, they have only to say so. They have only to elect them to the management. The proprietors can elect them, but I suggest that there is no more right or reason to dictate to them in this matter than there is in regard to the employçs. My hon Friend (Mr. Macquisten) made a suggestion, which I think an admirable one. I, personally, have always thought that it would be very desirable to see representatives of the employçs on the boards of directors, but, on one condition, namely, that they are elected by the proprietors, and, if my hon. Friend's suggestion were carried out, there would be absolutely nothing here to prevent that being done, and it is, I submit, the right way of doing it. What I desire for the proprietors is, in all directions, unfettered discretion. For that reason, I beg to move my Amendment.

I beg to second the Amendment.

My attention was also called to these words by several people in Scotland, where they said they had suffered too long with large traders on the board of directors. I submit that the right point of view is, that if a man be a very large trader dealing with a particular railway, that is the man who should not be on the board, and if the paragraph read that no man who is a very large trader with the company should be on the board of directors, I should have thought that that was reasonable. This seems to put the thing upside down. The last thing you want is that such a man should share in dictating the policy of a railway. I think the paragraph as it stands is wholly unsound, and might lead to great jealousy, and to a man looking at the-traffic, consciously or sub-consciously, from the point of view of how it affected the trader.

The Bank of England is always supposed to be one of the best-managed institutions in the country, and the rule there is that no banker can become a director, because it is supposed that his banking interests might operate against his interests as a director of the Bank of England. That is, I think, a good sound rule. Some years ago, when dock companies, were in a bad position, I was a share holder in a dock company, and I remember attending one of the meetings, and pointing out that there was an undue representation of shipowners on the board, and that their interests were not identical with the interests of share holders. The same occurs here. There are, of course, several traders on several boards who have been elected, not because they were traders in that, particular area, 'but because they were supposed to be competent men, who would carry out the desires of the proprietors, and manage their concern in the best possible manner. I have no doubt that in the future there will be traders in that way on the different boards. If, on the other hand, out of 28 directors, four must be chosen because they are "persons having substantial trading interests in the area," that limits the choice to certain people in that area. It may be that at the moment there happens to be two or three deaths on the board—there have been on my board three retirements last year, not all due to deaths, happily— but it may happen that these two or three retirements are people who have trading; interests, and, therefore, if this proviso is passed we shall have to look in that area, not for competent men, but for the men who at the moment we can get to come on to the board who have substantial trading interests in the area. We might possibly be compelled to take men who have really vital interests in the trade of the area, and after all, we are all human, whether we happen to be members of a trade union or even a retrograde person like myself—we are all human, and unless we look after our own interests—

And the result of all this might be that we might have two or three directors who would alter the whole policy of the board, perhaps unwittingly, but who could not avoid the feeling that it was to their interest—many thousands of pounds might be involved—to do certain things. What is the qualification for a director? £2,000, I think it is even less, £1,000? The remuneration of a director is £300 per year. What is that? As my hon. and learned Friend says, it is going the wrong way about it. If you were to do anything—I would not put in a Clause to eliminate—but if you are going to do anything, then put in a Clause which says that a man who has large trading interests shall not be a representative. I do not want to do that. I want to leave the discretion unfettered; but if you are going to do anything you ought to do exactly the reverse of what you are doing. I sincerely trust that the little opportunity left to the proprietors under this Bill to manage their own affairs will not be further interfered with.

This provision really has passed through the test of the scrutiny of the whole representation of the railway companies, and no objection was raised in Committee so far as I know.

I am referring to the careful consideration by the associations. There has been no objection raised, so far as I know. No one voicing the opinion of the traders has spoken. I have had no report about it. I attach no importance to it myself if the traders do not. Therefore, unless the House wishes to go on debating the question, I am perfectly prepared to accept the Amendment. I have no doubt that on every board in the future there will be people who represent the large trading interests.

Amendment agreed to.

Third Schedule

Existing Officers and Servants

The following provisions shall apply in respect to persons who at the date when any amalgamation or absorption scheme was confirmed by the Amalgamation Tribunal were officers or servants of any constituent company or subsidiary company to which the scheme relates (all of which officers and servants are in this Schedule hereinafter referred to as "existing officers and servants"): —

(1) Every existing officer and servant shall, as from the date of amalgamation or absorption, become an officer or servant of the amalgamated company:

(2) The amalgamated company may abolish the office or situation of any existing officer or servant which they deem unnecessary, and any existing officer or servant required to perform duties such as are not analogous or which are an unreasonable addition to those which as an officer or servant of the company from whom he was transferred he was required to perform may relinquish his office or situation:

(3) No existing officer or servant so transferred shall, without his consent, be by reason of such transfer in any worse position in respect to the conditions of his service as a whole (including tenure of office, remuneration, gratuities, pension, superannuation, sick fund or any benefits or allowances whether obtaining legally or by customary practice of the constituent or subsidiary company) as compared with the conditions of service formerly obtaining with respect to him:

(4) If any question arises as to whether the provisions of the two last foregoing paragraphs have been complied with, the question shall be referred to a standing arbitrator or board of arbitration appointed by the Lord Chancellor, and, if the arbitrator or board consider that those provisions have not been complied with, and that the officer or servant has thereby suffered loss or injury, they shall award him such sum to be paid by the amalgamated company as they think sufficient to compensate him for such loss or injury:

(5) Every existing officer or servant whose office or situation is so abolished or who so relinquishes his office or service or whose services are dispensed with on the ground that they are not required or for any reason not being on account of any misconduct or in capacity, or whose salary, wages, or remuneration are reduced on the ground that his duties have been diminished, or who otherwise suffers any direct pecuniary loss in consequence of the amalgamation or absorption (including any loss of prospective superannuation or other retiring or death allowances and allowances payable to his widow or orphan children, whether obtaining legally or by customary practice of the constituent or subsidiary company), shall be entitled to be paid compensation for such pecuniary loss, to be determined and paid by the amalgamated company, subject to appeal to such standing arbitrator or

(6) The fee payable to an arbitrator or member of a board of arbitration under this Schedule shall be such as the Lord Chancellor may fix, and that fee shall be paid by the amalgamated company concerned.

I beg to move, to leave out the words

"when any amalgamation or absorption scheme was confirmed by the Amalgamation Tribunal were—"

and to insert instead thereof the words

"of the passing of this Act had been for not less than three years—"

The short point is this: The provisions of compensation as provided in the Schedule, and the circumstances of the amalgamation might easily lead to a number of people being displaced. The result is that whilst there would be compensation for the directors, whenever it was known that their position was redundant, the managers themselves would dispense with those people beforehand and it would not be possible afterwards to prove that it was a result of this Bill. I understand that the railway companies themselves have agreed on a compromise. I suggest three years. I am prepared to accept five years, which covers the point.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule," put, and negatived.

Amendments made to proposed Amendment: Leave out the words, "had been for," and insert instead thereof the words, "are and for a period of."

Leave out the word "three" ["less than three years"], and insert instead thereof the word "five."

At the end add the words "have been." —[ Major Hills. ]

Proposed words, as amended, there inserted in the Bill.

I beg to move, to leave out the words, "to which the scheme relates," and to insert instead thereof the words

"other than those who prior to the amalgamation or absorption of such constituent or subsidiary company, have become pensioners or annuitants in accordance with the rules of any railway pension or superannuation fund of which they may be members, or who have been removed from the service of any such constituent or subsidiary company by reason of misconduct or incapacity."

The Government see no objection to this Amendment and consequential Amendments, but it is right to tell the right hon. Gentlemen who moved them that they will require considerable re-casting of the Clause in another place in order to make them fit into the Bill.

We understand that.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

Amendments made to proposed Amendment: Leave out the words "other than those who," and insert instead thereof the words" and who shall not."

Leave out the word "who" ["or who have been removed"], and insert instead thereof the words " have voluntarily retired or."—[ Major Hills. ]

Proposed words, as amended, there inserted in the Bill.

I beg to move, in paragraph (2), to leave out the words "not analogous" ["duties such as are not analogous"], and to insert instead thereof the words "unreasonable having regard to his previous employment."

I am quite sure my hon. Friend intends this in the interests of the staff, but he may take it from me we have gone very carefully into the matter on all sides, and if this Amendment be adopted it will, we are all agreed, be a disservice to the staff.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Further Amendments made: In paragraph (4) leave out the word "two" ["the two last foregoing paragraphs"].

Leave out the word "paragraphs" and insert instead thereof the word "paragraph."— [ Mr. W. Graham. ]

I beg to move, in paragraph (5), to leave out the words "in consequence" ["pecuniary loss in consequence of"], and to insert instead thereof the words "by reason."

My reason for proposing to leave out these words "in consequence" is that they might be held to limit the right of compensation to those servants of the. company who were dismissed after the date of the amalgamation, and it is not desired so to limit it so much as to include all who come within the five years period. If the Amendment be carried it will read that you compensate those who are dismissed solely by reason of the amalgamation. It has been pointed out to me that the word "solely," as I at first proposed ["solely by reason"], is not required and may limit the obvious intention of the Schedule, which is that all those who come within the five years period and lose their positions are to be compensated if they lose them as a result of the amalgamation.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in paragraph (5), to leave out the words:

7.0 P.M.

We feel there is a point in this Third Schedule that hitherto has not received the public attention it deserves. Under this Schedule everybody round and about a railway company, from a director down to a porter and even a barmaid, I think, receives a statutory right of continued employment. It has been customary to have this sort of clause in Acts of Parliament before, but there has never been an Act of Parliament in which something over a million people were concerned in which the House has imposed this responsibility. To impose such an enormous obligation in an Act of Parliament at the present minute is a matter of serious consequence. Who knows what conditions of labour may obtain in two years' time?

I think the hon. Member has missed his way. The Amendment whch I called on him to move was that dealing with the question of solicitors.

I thought that was dealt with on a previous Amendment to which this is consequential.

I am sorry, but there was no response when I called the previous Amendment, and we must, therefore, pass on.

I beg to move, in paragraph (5), after the word "Act" ["before the passing of this Act shall be deemed"], to insert the words, "or any person who for that period had continuously acted as auditor of a company."

This particular Amendment was before the Committee, but I think the position has been changed a little since then by the decision of the House to permit compensation of directors in cases where the shareholders so desire. Auditors are now left as the only people in the whole of the railway system who would not be eligible, as I understand it, for compensation. One is driven to ask for what particular reason they are left out. Solicitors are included. I understand the chief reason why auditors were not included by the Committee was that, though an individual is named as auditor, it is his firm as a fact which undertakes the duty. But I understand there are certain railway companies which do not appoint solicitors exclusively to their service, and resort to solicitors who are in practice and who usually are members of firms. Therefore, it seems to me, the auditor is on all fours with the solicitor. It was also argued that the auditor is elected only from year to year, or for periods of two or three years. He is in the same position as the directors. Therefore either on the footing of solicitor or on the footing of director we have a precedent for the auditor.

There really is hardship involved. I suppose I have been approached to move this Amendment because at an early stage in the progress of this Bill I was partly instrumental in getting the number of groups reduced, and, therefore, presumably, the number of offices open to auditors reduced. Though it may be the case that an auditor is re-elected at short intervals, as a fact auditors hold office for a very long time, and there is a presumption that during good conduct they will continue to hold office. I have before me two instances of auditors who are likely to lose their appointments because they belong to relatively minor companies. In both cases they have held those appointments for 25 years, and their fathers held office for a further period of something like 25 years before them. Their offices are specialised to some extent for this work. The audit is a running audit, running through the year, and there are clerks and others in the office specially for the purpose of the railway audit. In these circumstances it does seem to me that we can hardly single out auditors in this matter of compensation.

I beg to second the Amendment. In Scotland there have been cases of auditors holding their appointments for half a century. The amalgamation of the companies means that the audits will come to London. The solicitors in Scotland will be employed, because of the peculiarities of Scottish law, but the auditors will be evacuated. They are people whom the shareholders have appointed, and it would be a great hardship, owing to the speciality they have made of this business, if the small amount of compensation which would fall due to them should not come their way.

It is not a very pleasant task to have to oppose this proposal, but I really think we have got to the stage when we ought to stop. I was not present in the Committee, so far as I know, when the solicitors were put in. The number of solicitors who belong to firms is very limited, and I believe there are quite sufficient precedents to make one suppose that companies are within their legal rights in giving compensation to firms of outside solicitors, because all solicitors who are employed as officers are included. I believe companies have given grants to firms of solicitors under certain circumstances, and that they have a legal right to do so. However that may be—and I believe I am right on that, and if I am, it applies to auditors—in the case of railway companies auditors are in every case, I believe, firms of chartered accountants. This is part of their business. It is not as if this was the whole of their livelihood; it is a small part. It is a continuing work I agree, but it is not the whole business. Shareholders appoint an auditor with a great name—a member of a well-known firm of chartered accountants, who puts his name at the bottom of the balance sheet; and it is because his is a big business, because he has high standing, because he has a large amount of confidence reposed in him, and because of the standing of his firm that he gets the business. It is not like the case of an officer giving his own work for a salary.

If we are to go on adding to these lists, why not bring in many others—the bankers, the stockbroker, the consulting engineer, the adviser on hotels, valuers, medical officers who are consulted outside? They all have an interest, but it is not their sole business. I believe the companies could, in the face of hardship, and if they so desire, give compensation to these gentlemen who, as part of their business, have acted for them, but I would remind the House that if we put it in the Bill we make it obligatory on the company to pay compensation, and I think we go rather too far. Just one word more, because it is necessary to differentiate between these gentlemen and the directors. It is perfectly clear that the directors, without the power given in the Bill, could not get any compensation. I believe, as I have said, there are plenty of precedents for people such as auditors getting compensation from the companies voluntarily, and I do not think we ought to make it compulsory.

I hope the House will accept this Amendment. In the Committee the auditors were left out of the group entitled to compensation. The whole question to my mind is this, is an auditor an officer of the company to an extent that entitles him to compensation? The schedule gives compensation to every officer, from the general manager down to a platelayer, who loses office as a result of amalgamation. That may be a very expensive thing, but I submit that it is entirely fair. The reason why the House so decided is that these men will have suffered a loss through no fault of their own, and I submit that the auditor who has been employed for a great number of years is in every practical sense an officer of the company. I quite agree that we have got to draw the line somewhere, but when a man has acted for 5, 10, or 15 years as auditor, surely he is actually in the category of officers even if he is not technically an officer. I am the last person to want to extend the charges which the groups have to meet, I want to keep the amount as low as possible, but I do want to be just. The boards of management of groups must be concentrated in London—I regret it, but I regard it as irrevocable—and therefore the local auditors in Scotland or the North of England will be deprived of what was practically a life appointment, because if one of these gentlemen are appointed they keep their appointments as long as they live provided they do their duty. It is through no fault of their own that they will lose these appointments, but because the Government wish to group the railways, and by so doing have shifted the nerve centre from York or Derby to London. These gentlemen who have for years served the companies are in the position of officers and ought to receive compensation.

To hear the talk of the last few minutes and the similar talk in Committee one would almost think these auditors and others who are going to be compensated have had their hands cut off and their brains taken out. Nothing of the sort is going to happen. The right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Geddes) said it was time we called a halt. I agree with him. For my part I wish we could go back. The Minister of Transport said something of the same kind and hopes we will not go any further. I am in a quandary about this for in view of what has happened I feel there is much to be said in favour of the Amendment, but let me give, briefly, the evolution of the idea. I was induced to assent to the proposal to compensate workmen. It was put to me at the beginning of our proceedings that these workmen ought to be compensated because they were a special class of workmen. They had been recruited from the land on to the railway, they had specialised, all their lives, and they were not fitted to do anything else, as other workmen were, and therefore, in a special degree, they were entitled to compensation. I agreed to that, and I am sorry I did, because just look where it has led us. Upstairs we had a proposition to compensate solicitors, and it was pleaded on their behalf that they were full-time officers and should be compensated for that reason. At that time loud protests were made that there was no intention of bringing in directors, but what has happened since? No sooner had we got downstairs with this Bill that a proposition was made that the directors of the constituent companies should be compensated, and the next step was to compensate the directors of the absorbed companies. Of course, if the constituent companies were entitled toy compensation, so were the absorbed companies. It is said to be permissive. I have sufficient faith in the ability of the railway directors to think that they would have found some way of obtaining compensation without having a statutory right. Having opposed the two propositions I have mentioned in favour of constituent and absorbed companies, what can the House do in regard to this proposition? To be fair you must bring in the auditors along with the directors. May I point out that you leave the auditors free to apply their labour elsewhere just as the workmen have to do from one end of the country to the other without any idea of compensation. You have given compensation to the directors, and now you are called upon to give it to the auditor. I protest against the whole business, and on this point I shall not vote either one way or the other.

I would like to say a word or two in favour of this Amendment. It is quite true that the auditor is only a part-time servant and has other business; but the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last missed the point that the auditor works in this matter through a highly specialised and trained staff who deal with railway work alone. The auditor will be called upon to compensate those men because he will probably have to dismiss them. Very often they have worked so long at that particular work that they are probably not suitable to do other branches of the office work, and I think that is a strong point in favour of this Amendment, which I shall support.

Those who favoured the payment of compensation to directors must find it difficult now to resist the plea in favour of compensation for auditors because both are part-time servants. As one who opposed compensation to directors, I hope we shall make a stand against paying further money to vested interests, because the money, in the end, will have to come out of the trading community and the public. I hope the House will make a stand on this point to-day and refuse to add further burdens on the public. There is a difference between a man who loses his whole-time job and a man who only loses a email section of his work.

I hope the House will not attempt any extension of this Schedule. Other classes and other professions have to submit to the great necessity of the future, and to pile up an enormous Schedule now would be a great mistake. I trust the House will not make any further additions.

In view of the discussion, I feel it would be hopeless to press this Amendment to a Division. I may say, however, that I have not been convinced by the answer given by the Minister of Transport, and I hope that during the passage of this Bill in another place an opportunity may occur for further considering this question. I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

I seconded this Amendment, and I object to it being withdrawn.

Amendment negatived.

SIXTH SCHEDULE.

The Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1854 (17 & 18 Vict. c. 31).

In Section seven, for the words "for any horse fifty pounds, for any neat "cattle per head fifteen pounds, for any sheep or pigs per head two "pounds" there shall be substituted the words "for any horse one "hundred pounds, for neat cattle per head fifty pounds, for any other "animal five pounds."

The next Amendment on the Paper to Schedule. 5—to insert the words "Provided that Section 18 of the-Schedule to the Railway Rates and Charges Orders shall continue in full force-and effect "—is out of order, because it should have been moved as an Amendment to Clause 33.

This Amendment gives the right of applying to the Trades Tribunal for the reinstatement of such a provision, and may I point out that, in my view, this Amendment is not consistent with Clause 33.

I think the hon. Member is perfectly right, but this point should have been dealt with in Clause 33. It would be impossible to put in this. Schedule an Amendment which belongs to Clause 33. The Amendment of the hon. and gallant Member for Durham (Major Hills)—to leave out of paragraph 11 (ii) the words "otherwise than is provided for by Section 48 of this Act"—seems to me to be part of an earlier proposal, and conflicts with Clause 48. Therefore it is not in order. The next Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Nottingham (Mr. Atkey)—to add to paragraph 11 (iii) the words "if not included in a station terminal charge, and in respect of which no rate or charge is prescribed "—? is already included in the Bill in an earlier Clause. The next two Amendments to this Schedule are really corrections of misprints, and I have given instructions for those alterations to be made. The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham)—to insert at the beginning of the Seventh Schedule the words "national agreements in regard to rates of pay and conditions of service of employçs of the railway companies in Great Britain "—is really not an Amendment to the Schedule. It is a heading, and I have given instructions that it should be inserted in the reprint of the Bill.

I beg to move, in the paragraph beginning, "The Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1854," in column 2, after the word "pounds" ["for neat cattle per head fifty pounds,"] to insert the words "for pigs per head fifteen pounds, for sheep per head seven pounds ten shillings."

NINTH SCHEDULE.

ENACTMENTS REPEALED.

PART I.

Session and Chapter.

Short Title.

Extent of Repeal.

2 & 3 Geo. 5. c. 19

The Light Railways Act, 1912.

Section two.

Section three.

Section eight.

In Sub-section (1) of Section nine the words "subject to the special provisions of this Act "with respect to the Light Railway "commissioners acting as arbitrators."

PART II.

36 & 37 Vict. c. 48

The Regulation of Railways Act, 1873.

Sections fourteen and fifteen, except so far as they relate to canal companies.

51 & 52 Vict. c. 25

The Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1888.

Section twenty-five from "Provided that no application" to the end of the Section, and Sections twenty-six, thirty-one, thirty-three, and thirty-four, except so far as those Sections, including the said Section twenty-five, relate to canals and canal companies, or to through rates where part of the through rate is over a canal.

57 & 58 Vict. c. 54.

The Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1894.

Sections three and four.

2 & 3 Geo. 5. c. 29

The Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1913.

The whole Act.

Amendments made: In Part I, in paragraph beginning "2 and 3 Geo. V. c. 19,"

At the end of the paragraph insert

2 & 3 Geo. V. c. 29 …

The Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1913.

The Whole Act.

In Part II, in paragraph beginning "36 and 37 Vict. c. 48," in column 3, leave out the words "Sections fourteen and fifteen, except so far as they relate to canal companies," and insert instead thereof the words

"Section fourteen, except so far as it relates to light railway and canal companies, and Section fifteen except so far as it relates to canal companies."

I regret that I cannot accept this proposal. The extra value may easily be covered by insurance.

Amendment negatived.

at beginning of column 3, insert the words, "Sub-section (1) of Section one."

In paragraph beginning "51 and 52 Viet. c. 25," in column 3, at end insert the words

"and except so far as Sections thirty-three and thirty-four relate to light railways and light railway companies."

In paragraph beginning "57 & 58 Vict, c. 54," in column 3, leave out the words, "Sections three and four," and insert instead thereof the words

"Section three except so far as it relates to light railway and canal companies, and Section four."

Leave out the words:

2 & 3 Geo 5. c. 29.

The Railway and Canal Traffic Acts, 1913

The Whole Act.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

I cannot assent to this .Motion without expressing a few words of regret that it contains no provision whatever for co-partnership or co-working. We have had many examples of the success which has attended arrangements for sharing profits between employers and employed in the glass industry, of which I have been a member for the last 22 years, and that system of co-partnership and co-management has proved to be absolutely successful, and might very well form an example for other trades to follow. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) took a prominent part in bringing about an arrangement for the setting up of the Wages Board, and obtained a substantial representation of the railway workers on the board of direction. No doubt that was a very proper arrangement to make in all the circumstances, but the fact still remains that this Bill, which creates almost a revolution in the railway world, does not contain what in the opinion of those who have had experience of the best method by which industrial peace can be obtained, that is any provision or any possibility of a voluntary arrangement with regard to co-partnership and co-management.

I want to say in the presence of hon. Members, directors of railway companies, who have levelled objections against the system of representation of workers on boards, that after 22 years of sitting side by side, week after week, with elected representatives of workers on the board of the largest gas company in the South of London, I have never once had experience of a case in which a workman directly elected by his fellow working shareholders has abused his position, and has sought to deal with the interests of the workers to the detriment of the interests of the concern as a whole. An hon. Gentleman opposite just now interjected the word "shareholders!" I agree that, until workers have become shareholders, they cannot reasonably expect to be represented on the board of the company by which they are employed.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals (Mr. G. Barnes) moved an Amendment on the Report stage, but I felt he had missed the essence of the whole of this question if he intended to press that there should be representation on a board without that representation coming from workers who are shareholders, as well as employçs. I venture to think the tome will come when we shall have in the railway industry, as well as in the gas industry and in other industries, a system of co-partnership and co-working. Until you have such a system of co-partnership, co-working and co-representation on the management, you will never have industrial peace. I do not blame the Ministry in this matter, but I must express my deep regret that no provision has been made in this great Bill which will, after all, be in the future a guarantee of permanent industrial peace.

I beg to move to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words, "upon this day three months."

I do this, because, having spent many weeks upstairs in Committee and some weeks in this House in considering this Bill, I have come to the conclusion that it will do nothing but bring disaster, both upon the railway companies and upon the community as a whole. On the Second Reading of the Bill, the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Transport said: and of the shareholders do not, in the least, appreciate what this Bill is going to do. I am not blaming, in any way, either hon. Members of this House or people outside, for" their failure to do that, because, unless one has had a certain amount of legal training or a considerable amount of training in dealing with Bills in this House, and has in addition given days of time to find out the true meaning of the Bill, I venture to say it is almost impossible for anyone to understand exactly what the Bill does. I am going to put very shortly, without any exaggeration, the facts as they appear to me. Under this Bill, the companies are to be amalgamated compulsorily, and the terms of amalgamation are to be settled by an Amalgamation Tribunal. Power is given to the companies to prepare a voluntary scheme before the 1st January, 1923, but this power is, to a large extent, illusory, as the scheme when prepared, is to be submitted first to the Minister, who then is to submit it to the tribunal, which can alter, or amend, or refuse to accept it, should it not in their opinion conform to the requirements of the Bill, and from their decision, except on points of law, there is no appeal. Just look at it. At the very first outset, trouble and bureaucracy will be entailed by this Bill. On the Report stage I endeavoured to get the Minister to consent that a scheme which has been agreed upon by the various constituent companies should be sent by them direct to the tribunal, instead of first going to him and he having to send it to the tribunal. But the Government would not assent to that. I would ask what on earth is the use of sending a scheme to a Minister who is to send it to somebody else, that somebody else being the court which is to have the final decision. Surely, in these days, when we want as far as possible to eliminate all unnecessary expense and working, to send a scheme to A, in order that he may send it to B, is only worthy of the days of the Circumlocution Office so well described by the late Charles Dickens. This voluntary provision is, therefore, as I have said, to a large extent, illusory. Although they may come to an agreement, the companies cannot cary it out, but have to send it to a tribunal, which can reject it, if it thinks right to do so. Under Clause 3, power is given to the Amalgamation Tribunal to

May I for a moment on this point have the attention of the Minister of Transport? Up to the present we have not been told who are to be members of this tribunal, although the Government have been asked to give the names to the House. Some weeks ago I was in communication with the Leader of the House, and pointed out to him that it had been the universal custom in the House, when a tribunal of this sort was set up, for the Government to inform the House before they parted with the Bill who are to be the gentlemen who will compose the tribunal. I made the same request to the Minister in charge of this Bill. I particularly said I did not ask for their names to be included in the Bill. The names of the gentlemen composing the Amalgamation Tribunal are included in the Bill, but I did not ask that the names of the members of the Rates Tribunal should be put in, but I did ask, and I hope before this evening closes we shall be told who are these gentlemen who are going to have these vast powers. The tribunal is to consist of three permanent members, with power to add to their number. I do not know what was the number of members of the Star Cham- ber. I Should think probably it was three, as three seems to be the number of tribunals always set up under these Bills. The remuneration and other expenses of these gentlemen are to be paid by the amalgamated companies out of their working expenses in such proportion as the Rates Tribunal may determine, and there is a similar provision as to the expenses of the Amalgamation Tribunal, but in this latter case there is a limit to the amount of expenditure they may incur at the cost of other people. Here we have a new procedure. Tribunals are to be set up, and the costs of the tribunals are to be borne by one of the parties who appear before them. That is a new procedure which surely cannot be justified on any reasonable ground.

One of the functions of the Rates Tribunal is to fix charges, and I would invite the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) to this, because I am going to deal with something on which he expressed a very strong and decided opinion, and I am rather inclined to think that we shall both be found in the same Lobby this evening. One of the functions of the Rates Tribunal is to fix charges which will, together with the other sources of revenue, in the opinion of the tribunal, so far as practicable yield, with efficient and economical working, an annual net revenue equivalent to the aggregate net revenues in the year 1913 of the constituent and subsidiary companies. It has been stated on more than one occasion that this Clause guarantees to the companies their 1913 dividends, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton has made that statement. Had it done that, the shareholders would have had no cause of complaint, or at any rate not a great cause of complaint, although even if that had been done their dividends would have been limited, and they would have been prevented from sharing in any increase in the prosperity of the company, whether owing to a general increase in the prosperity of the country or to efficient management on the part of their representatives. As a matter of fact, however, it does nothing of the sort. It is merely an instruction to the tribunal that in fixing rates they shall have regard to those matters.

The mere fixing of charges does not secure revenue. If it did, all that a manufacturer would have to do would be to start a factory, sit down in his office, and say that the charges for his goods were to be so-and-so, and then, on the assumption that his goods would be required, credit himself with the profit which would accrue if the goods were purchased. If the charges fixed are higher than the traffic will bear, the traffic will not be forthcoming, and if the traffic is not forthcoming the dividend of 1913 disappears. Therefore it is quite erroneous to say that the dividends of 1913 are guaranteed. It may be said that the present increase in charges is not likely to affect the volume of traffic, but we have a great authority, none other than the Minister himself—I am sorry that he is not here at the moment—who in this House, on the 17th March, 1919, said that an increase of 70 or 80 per cent, in the goods rates was unthinkable —and I commend this to the notice of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton. The Minister said: works, and only to capital expenditure; and there is no limitation of expenditure, either capital or revenue, incurred on account of the reasonable services, facilities, and conveniences which the companies may be compelled to provide.

There is a supposed safeguard to this provision, in the proviso that, if the company satisfies the Railway and Canal Commission that, in all the circumstances, the capital required for the purpose cannot be provided or expended as proposed without prejudicially affecting the interests of the then existing stockholders, the Order shall not be made. I say that that is perfectly illusory. Let me give an illustration of how it might work out. The Minister or his successors are known to be very strongly in favour of electric schemes. A certain body of persons—and there are always people who are desirous, quite honestly, no doubt, of promoting new schemes— might go to the Minister and say that railway A would be very much better if it were electrified, or any rate if a certain portion of it were electrified. The Minister might then order it to be electrified. The shareholders might say, "We do not think that the electrification of the main line now would be a profitable undertaking. It might have been if we had not equipped it for steam working, but it is now equipped for steam working. It is quite different from the Underground; there is no tunnel, or steam to be got rid of, and we do not think it will be profitable, but that the cost will be so great as to cause a loss to the shareholders." The Minister may say, "That may be your opinion, but you are not progressive people. I have excellent expert opinion. I have the best engineers in the world, who take absolutely the contrary view, and therefore I am going to make this Order." The company will go to the Railway and Canal Commission, and if they can prove to the Commission that their interests are going to be prejudically affected, then the Commission may cancel the Order. But how are they going to prove it? They go to the Railway and Canal Commision, and say, "We think the electrification will be costly, and will not be successful." The Commission naturally hear the other side, and the other side say, "That is quite wrong; we can bring any number of experts," and they call all these engineers, who will say, "We are certain that it is going to be successful. These people do not understand their business. They think it will hurt them, but it will do them good." It is quite possible that the Railway and Canal Commission may say that the Order shall be made, and it is more than probable that the experts will be wrong, as they generally are in these matters. First of all, the expense will be greatly in excess of the estimate. That is a certainty, and in all probability the result will be quite contrary to what the experts thought. This only applies to capital, and would not prevent the making of an Order requiring the companies to do certain things the expense of which would be defrayed out of revenue. Further, the Minister may order any railway company

I now come to what is, perhaps, the most important question of all—the question of wages. I do not know whether the House or the country knows that the wages on the railways—or, perhaps, I ought not to say wages, but sums spent in wages, or sums paid to employçs, because it includes extra men who have been put on in consequence of the 8-hours' day—the sum paid to employçs was at the end of last year more than three times what it was before the War. The actual figure, I think, was originally £47,000,000, and it has gone up to £167,000,000. The right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) said that in the last few months £17,000,000 had been taken off wages. I take that from him as being correct, but I am not at all certain that it has come into effect at the present moment. If that be so, there has been an increase of £120,000,000, and off that there has been taken £17,000,000—not a very large proportion. The question of wages is really the crux of the whole matter. You cannot run these companies, in order to give any return at all to the shareholders, unless you effect a considerable reduction in wages and a considerable lengthening of hours. How is this going to be settled? I see in the House a few hon. Members who are business men and who have undertakings of their own. Let them think how this is going to be settled. It is to be settled by a National Board, and that National Board was to have been constituted under an agreement which was made between some railway general managers and the trade unions. It was to have been constituted on the same basis as the National Wages Board set up by the Government some 18 months ago, that is to say, there were to be four members representing the trade unions, four representing the public, four representing the shareholders, and an independent chairman, who, I believe, although I am not quite sure, was to be appointed by the Minister of Labour. That was the arrangement, but it was abandoned in Committee, and the constitution of the Board was, as I think, vitally altered. It is now to be: six members selected by the trade unions, six selected by the shareholders, one selected by the Cooperative Union, and one appointed by the Parliamentary Committee of the Trade Union Congress. I say that these last two members will be trade unionists, and that, consequently, you will have eight trade unionists as against six repre- sentatives of the shareholders. There are to be two more members, one appointed by the Associated Chambers of Commerce and one by the Federation of British Industries; so that even if—which is not by any manner of means certain— the representation of the Associated Chambers of Commerce and the Federation of British Industries goes to the companies, the parties will be equally divided, the trade unions 8.0 P.M. having an equal representation with the companies and the public. Surely that is a very one-sided arrangement. The independent shareholder, who may possibly, if the two commercial gentlemen happen to go to the shareholders, which by no means follows because their interests may be absolutely contrary to that of the shareholders—the independent shareholder who may have to decide what is going to be a question which will affect the whole of the dividends on £1,300 of capital is to be appointed by the Minister of Labour.

8.0 P. M.

This is no time for being mealy-mouthed. We all know that the Ministry of Labour is full of trade unionists. Hon. Members opposite—I do not want to mention names, but I can—after having made a successful debut on those Benches become officials in the Ministry of Labour and control its affairs, and naturally, human nature being what it is, they will not desert the source to which they owe their present eminence and their present salaries. I cannot conceive this proposal to be made seriously. My hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Marriott) had an Amendment to leave out "Minister of Labour" and to substitute "Lord Chancellor," but unfortunately, owing to the procedure of the House, that Amendment was not discussed. It was arranged that this tribunal was to settle matters. The words of the Bill as we had it in Committee were that all these questions relating to rates of pay and conditions of service were to be settled by the tribunal. That has been left out, so that the result is that when all this machinery has been gone through and the tribunal have given their decision they cannot enforce it. What will take place? If the decision is against the trade unions they will say, quite rightly, "We do not like this deci- sion. The tribunal has no power to enforce it. We will not abide by it." Technically they are quite right, and I can imagine letters in the Radical Press to the effect that having gone to the tribunal they ought to abide by its decision; but they were not bound to, and there is a great deal to be said for their case. Consequently there will either be a strike or the railway companies will have to give way. Supposing it is the other way and the decision is given against the railway companies and the railway companies say, "The words 'settled by' were taken out in Committee. This tribunal has no power to enforce its decision, and we are not going to abide by it." The whole of the Press and a good number of Members of the House would unite in abusing the railway companies for having gone to the tribunal and not having abided by its decision. So that in any case it is, heads I win and tails you lose, and I think the right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) is to be congratulated upon what he has done. We are told one of the effects of this Bill will be that there will be great savings. I should like to ask the House to consider what the possibility of these savings is going to be. On 9th April, 1919, the Minister said: The right hon. Gentleman for two years has been in control of the railways, and the railways have been under Government control for seven years. If all these savings which were going to take place have been made, and I presume they have, where is there room for any more saving? Again, on 10th July, the right hon. Gentleman said: with owing to amalgamation. I believe an hour ago we put in that he must have been in the service of the companies for five years. That is an improvement, but still it must not be forgotten that there can be very little saving made by a reduction of staff because of the compensation which has to be paid to the staff. The Parliamentary Secretary has made some very valuable remarks upon this question. On 9th March last year he said:

Let me sum up my remarks, and point out how the companies will in the future be controlled. In the future the railways will be managed by the Rates Tribunal, the Amalgamation Tribunal, the Railway and Canal Commission, the National Wages Board, and the Minister. That is enough, in all conscience, I should have thought. If this is not to attempt bureaucratic control from London of the railway systems, I do not know what is. What business can be successfully managed if the conduct of its affairs is taken out of the hands of the partners in the undertaking and placed in the hands of various bodies set up by the State? That is what this Bill does. What is left for the representatives of the shareholders to do, unless it may be to smooth over frictions between these various bodies? The only matter which I can see is left to the sole responsibility of the directors is finding the money which other people are to spend. On the Second Reading of the Bill I said: "This is nothing but bastard nationalisation." A straightforward attempt to nationalise the railways would, at any rate, result in some compensation being paid for the property that was taken away from its owners, but in this Bill the property is to all intents and purposes taken away, and not only is no compensation paid, but the owners of the property actually have to find money for these various bodies to play with, and they have to pay the expenses of all these various bodies—I am not sure about the Minister, but all the others— and the salaries and expenses have to be paid by the unfortunate shareholder. I have taken, in the last day or two, some little trouble to read the very excellent speeches made by the Minister of Transport, and I could have produced a great number of them. They all disagree one from the other. I will read an extract from a speech that he made on 24th June last year:

It is rather unusual to find myself in the same lobby with my right hon. Friend, but we shall be there, although for somewhat different reasons. We shall be a select band, though in the right. This Bill I regard as a triumph of log-rolling. Everybody connected with the railways are pleased, except my right hon. Friend, who is a little more far-sighted than those who only look on the surface. This Bill is a kind of bargain made outside the House. The House of Commons does not come into it. This bargain, in my judgment, will cripple the trade of the country so long as the Act is in operation. The railway companies get £60,000,000. In these days of economy, £60,000,000! We are spending money without regard, even though the Government pay lip service, to economy. We have £60,000,000 for the railways, £20,000,000 for agriculture, and £10,000,000 for the coalminers. Money is being expended in tens of millions. When I came into this House Chancellors of the Exchequer looked very greedily upon £100,000. Now it is tens of millions. There is to be a tribunal for fixing railway rates. My right hon. Friend says that it is illusory. I am not sure that in the long run he will not be right. Anyhow, there is the tribunal of three to fix the rates so as to secure the railway companies their net 1913 revenue.

I admit that. That is where the railway companies are wrong, and that is why my right hon. Friend who has just spoken has a much saner and far-sighted vision than the railway companies and those who are accepting this Bill. The workers are pleased because the railway workers are to have a Wages Board. This removes from the railway companies the stimulus for enterprise. The Minister of Transport is a kind of dispenser of joy all round.

It will not be for long. I speak on behalf of the community, not for the railway companies, not for the railway workers, not for any special section of the community, but for the community as a whole; the trader, the agriculturist, and the consumer. Their views have hardly been heard in these Debates. It has all been the railways. The right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) no doubt thinks that he has made an excellent bargain for his constituents. The railway directors have all been on the Committee. The railway interests on the Committee upstairs and in the House have been monopolising the Debate. It is a very remarkable fact that, although if you have any interest in a matter before a Select Committee you are debarred from sitting upon it, upon this Committee the railway directors were there and the railway workers were there, taking a very active part. I agree with the right hon. Baronet that the charges now imposed by the railway companies are bound to cripple the traffic of the country. I have here some figures, and I wonder they have not been made more use of. I have tried to publish them far and wide. These figures were attacked by a railway manager in the Press, although they were furnished to me by the Minister of Transport. The figures show that the railway charges for goods, passengers, and everything else before the War were £135,000,000 a year. To-day, according to this Estimate, which was furnished to me in January last, they are to be £318,000,000 a year.

Yes, for the same weight of traffic. That means that while the traders and the travellers were paying £l before the War, under this Bill, according to this estimate, they will have to pay £2 6s. If anyone wants a finer election cry than that, I do not know where he is going to get it. I do not want to go electioneering. I want to develop the trade of the country, and I would support the Government in doing it if they would take reasonable steps towards that end. The traders of the country cannot stand this enormous burden. On the 2nd August the Minister of Transport said:

"The railway rates are at an abnormal figure, and with the present depression in trade I believe they are higher than trade can stand."

How are you going to reduce the rates if you are going to maintain the 1913 revenue of the companies s I am not sure that they will not have to put them up further. It is one of the arguments against the Bill, that if trade is bad the rates must be put up in order to maintain the 1913 revenue. You put up the rates when trade is bad, and I suppose you reduce them when trade is good. How are you going to get trade good if you increase your railway rates? It is all a vicious circle. Trade and the employment question in this country are the dominant considerations. I do not believe that anyone can regard the present situation without the gravest anxiety. There are tens of thousands of workers who are not getting sufficient to eat, and this winter may bring a very terrible crisis upon them. The trade returns show how appalling our export trade has fallen. I have here a quotation, not from a politician, but from the monthly review of the London, City and Midland Bank, issued on 1st July. It says:

"Taking all classes of commodities, the volume exported in the first half of 1921 was 54'1 per cent, below the volume for the corresponding pre-War period."

That includes, as the hon. Member knows, three months coal stoppage and no export of coal.

Yes, but does my hon. Friend say that trade is satisfactory? Can anybody on the Government Bench say that trade is satisfactory? How are you going to revive trade with heavy railway rates? The volume of trade last year was considerably less than it was pre-War.

which guarantees that the rates or fares will be reduced. I was told the other day that there are other modes of transport. Of course, there are. I believe that the railways are going to suffer everywhere those other modes of transport can be used. But take the case of my own district. I represent a large agricultural area in Devonshire. How can they send their agricultural produce to London except by rail? There is a large number of cattle and a large amount of dairy produce sent to London from Devonshire by railway. It is despatched the night before between seven and eight, and arrives next morning. It cannot be sent by motor-car. But the railway charges are so great to-day that this produce cannot come here. A timber merchant said to me last week: "The increased railway charges are killing my business." A farmer came and said: "I have to convey 80 sheep from Lincolnshire. I shall have to give the railway companies 20 of the sheep for bringing me the other 60."

I understand that the Minister of Transport is about to leave his present position. I am afraid he is going to leave the Ministry of Transport behind. I am sorry for it. If he is going to be a great Minister of Economy, he had better poleaxe his own progeny—this grandiose Ministry, which is composed of highly-paid, useless officials. My instinct about this, I think, is right. I remember when the Minister of Transport first came down to this House, and with great fervour recommended national shipyards. I said that they would be a failure. And so they were. And so, I say, will this Bill. This Measure, which directly affects the interests of the country in a vital degree, is going through its last stage in the House of Commons, and hardly anybody is present at the Debate. I cannot be a party to it. I believe that this Bill is one of the most corrupt bargains which have ever been consummated by Parliament. There is only one consolation which I can take. Last year we passed an Agriculture Bill, and this year we have repealed it. I am wondering how long it will be before some other Government, if not this one, comes down and repeals the Measure which the House of Commons is now being persuaded to endorse.

The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has said that this Bill is one of the most corrupt bargains which have ever been laid before this House. I am not sure as to what he means. He did not give the House the privilege of any explanation of that particular observation. Did he mean to suggest that he, in the very long period during which he has been in this House, has never, in connection with any Bill which has been on the stocks, approached a Minister with any suggestions of his own? Has he never held any conferences with people who may be opposed to him in their ordinary opinions, but who were interested in a particular Bill which was brought before this House? Of course he has. And when he says that this is a corrupt bargain, he knows that he is really talking in the air.

What is the corrupt bargain? Is it a corrupt bargain that the workers, who are interested in a Bill like this, should have interviews and communications with the Railway Boards, who are similarly interested? If it is, it is open to the House to throw it over. The right hon. Gentleman has said that very seldom in this Debate were the interests of anyone other than railway directors and railway workers heard. I was on the Committee which enquired into this Bill upstairs, and I can remember very long discussions in reference to all the interests concerned.

This Bill was referred to a Standing Committee upstairs, and I was about to observe that every point of view was put before that Committee—the point of view of the trader and the general public and every other interest. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not take amiss what I am saying, but I think it right to say it. I really rose to say one or two words on this Bill, viewing it from the Scottish aspect. When the Bill was introduced [Lieut.-Colonel Murray.] it provided that the Scottish railways were to be grouped by themselves, and there was to be no direct connection with the English railways in the South. The Minister of Transport and the Parliamentary Secretary will remember that that proposal was received with vigorous protests by everyone in Scotland; the travelling public, traders, railway workers and railway shareholders, and as a result of those protests, the Minister accepted the views put forward by the Scottish Members, and as the Bill now stands, Scottish railways are grouped east and west with the English railways, with which in the past they have been most closely associated.

I desire to thank the Minister for the action which he took in that matter. In 30 far as that improvement has been made in the Bill, it has received the approval of the Scottish community generally. But apart from any other objections to the Bill, which I hold, and upon which I will not dilate now, there are still certain defects in the Bill which Scottish railway interests would desire to see rectified. The Minister went a great way to meet the proprietors of the smaller railway companies in an Amendment which he put down to Clause 6 of the Bill, which settled the terms of amalgamation on which the various companies are to be amalgamated. But I regret that the Minister has not found it possible to end that Clause in such a way as would leave, it open to the tribunal to take into consideration all the circumstances of the case without any special directions as to net revenue earning basis or anything of that sort, and I still hope that it will be possible during the passage of the Bill in another place to insert some such Amendment as that which has received the support of many Members of this House, and indeed which I am not sure would not have been passed through this House but for the fact that the Amendment of the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) interposed itself before the Amendment which I had down to leave out certain words in Clause 6. I very much regret that the hon. and gallant Gentleman who did not carry his own Amendment did not see his way to let his Amendment go by and have my Amendment submitted to the House.

There is one further defect to which Scottish Members take exception, and that is the allocation of the money under Clause 11. It would not be proper for me to refer to what happened in Committee, when an Amendment was Kangarooed, for a reason with which some of us did not at all agree. There are many provisions in this Bill of which I am not at all enamoured. How the Bill eventually will operate, no one in this House or outside of it can say. The right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) dilated on the question of rates. He said that the present rates were killing the trade of the country, and he suggested that rates should be brought down —how, I do not know—and that there should not be in the Bill the guarantees to the railway companies. Over and over again we have heard it put forward in these Debates that the earnings of the railway companies are to be guaranteed to them on a particular basis. Of course, that is not so. We in Scotland, particularly, know that it is not to be so. All the great industrial centres of Scotland are on the coast, chiefly, and are subject, to an unusual degree, to sea and road competition, and any attempt to provide the receipts, which are supposed to be guaranteed under this Bill, might have the result of sending the traffics either on to the sea or on to the road. Those hon. Members who say that this is an unfair Bill because it guarantees particular receipts to the railway companies, are not stating what is correct.

I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will bear the fact in mind that he is imposing upon the railway companies the obligation to provide statistics to an extent that hitherto has not been known. We must conclude that the reasons for that imposition are to enable the Rates Tribunal to carry out the duties imposed on it under Clause 58, which requires it, as far as practicable, to provide the net revenue on the condition of efficient and economical working of the railways. These statistics by themselves will prove nothing. It is no good taking statistics on lines such as the North Eastern Railway and comparing them with the statistics of a line such as the Highland Railway. I hope that when these statistics come to be used some other method of comparison will be adopted. I do not intend to vote against the Bill. If the Bill were not passed, after all that we have gone through, there would be complete chaos in the railway world and in the trading world, despite what the right hon. Member for South Molton has said. We accept this Bill faute de mieux. We can only trust that some of the hopes expressed by the Minister of Transport when he commended the Bill to the House will be fulfilled in the future.

I realise that we must have some form of Bill, some form of settlement, to enable the railways to proceed, but I deeply regret that the opportunity to make the railways of the country public property has been permitted to pass. It is an opportunity we may never have again. I was very much impressed by the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Durham (Major Hills) this afternoon. He said, and said accurately, that the country served by particular railways was "our territory." That, I think, expresses the fact truly. The formation of the railways into these large groups seems to me to be fastening upon the neck of the industrial and agricultural community of the country a very heavy burden, of which they will find it very difficult to relieve themselves. Arguments have been used many times with regard to the effect of the guarantee, or the provision of receipts to pay working expenses and interest corresponding to that of 1913 and an unknown amount for works that have been executed or were not sufficiently productive since that period. If that is not a guarantee, I do not know what a guarantee is. The guarantee is limited only by the capacity of this country to pay the amount. To that extent I think it is a bad Bill, It is not on those grounds alone that I think it is a bad Bill.

I know we are very proud of our railways, but notwithstanding that fact they are most expensive. They have made very little progress, so far as permanent way is concerned, since the days of George Stephenson, and the cost of upkeep of the railways is very high indeed. Perhaps hon. Members who do not accept that view will tell me in what way they have advanced, so far as permanent way is concerned. I can claim to know something of the subject, and so far as I can see the permanent way has made very little advance, if any advance, since the days of Stephenson. It is very costly. It is a good permanent way, but you can get just as good at a less figure, and at less cost to maintain. That is, so far as the permanent way is concerned. There is no provision in this Bill to improve it, and I do not think that the companies will ever find it within their power to do so. They are working in different groups and under different controls, and there is no common general objective for them to pursue, nor is there anything in the Bill which will make them pursue such an objective. True, the Minister of Transport, if the Ministry is retained, will have some very small powers in this direction, but they are nothing in comparison to that which is essential, if you want to bring the railways up to what is known as up-to-date practice. I know that we have very excellent rolling stock on the railways, but the great majority of the goods-carrying rolling stock is beneath contempt. There is not a goods train in the country—at least not a coal train—connected by continuous brakes, and our coupling arrangements are very bad. The amount of danger involved and the amount of time lost in marshalling operations in sidings, and all that kind of thing, is enormous, and the cost shows no prospect of diminution, such as there should be, if up-to-date practice were followed.

The railways of this country, on which so much depends, should be brought up at any rate to something like modern practice. As there is nothing in the Bill compelling them to do so, the railways will not do it. They will say, "These railways serve the community, and in the past we have done very well, and we require all our money for dividends." So there will be practically no progress or improvement I had hoped that the Ministry of Transport would work tremendous good in this country, and I still believe in it. No one regrets more than I that the Minister has not taken the opportunity afforded him on this occasion. I know quite well that many considerations must be taken into account in connection with a great crisis like the present. Notwithstanding all that, I do not think the right path has been taken. It is a difficult path but it is the one we should have followed. The railways should have been made public property.

I must remind the hon. Member that a Third Reading Debate must be confined strictly to what is in the Bill, and must not extend to what might be in the Bill.

I shall endeavour not to transgress again. As I was saying, my regret is that a great opportunity has been lost. The Bill does not really make any provision for economic working, or for any improvement in the methods of working. It does not make provision for bringing either the permanent way or the rolling stock up to a modern standard. In that respect I consider the Bill is a misfortune to the country. I realise the difficulties of the period, and the fact that some Bill is necesiary. To that extent the Bill is a makeshift, and I have tried as far as I possibly could to assist to make it a little better than it was originally, but I am not satisfied with the Measure. I do not think it will be of permanent value to the country, and I can only express regret, if it is the best makeshift that could possibly be brought in to meet an admittedly difficult situation.

It is very remarkable that no one has yet addressed the House in terms of satisfaction upon this Bill. Perhaps the Minister and those who support him on the Front Bench will be able to express a better hope and expectation for it than anyone who is outside the charmed official circle. This Bill has undergone no important change in principle since it was introduced, except that the original six groups have been reduced to four by the Amendments introduced in Committee. The Bill has had, in its passage through Committee, considerable vicissitudes, but the Minister has always been able to find support in the steady vote of the Socialist party. He has been able to count on the Socialist and nationalisation vote every time except one. There is little doubt as to the reason for that. This Bill has been described by an hon. Member as "bastard nationalisation." It takes away from the railway companies and the shareholders the control of their property and places it in the hands of various tribunals who are themselves to be the creatures of the Ministry. The main result of this Bill will be the endowment in permanency —so far as an Act of this Parliament can be a permanency—of the Ministry of Transport. Great complaint has been made as to the extravagance and uselessness of that Ministry. We have heard lamentations to-night that all the high hopes with which it was established have proved illusions. Yet every time we turn to this Bill, we find a reference to the Minister or the Ministry. I am not, of course, alluding to my right hon. Friend in any personal sense, but the Bill appears to confer power on the Minister and the Ministry, to control at every point the proceedings of the tribunals, and the officials, and the railway companies, and the directors. To proceed with the process of nationalisation which is eventually desired is, I presume, easier if there are only four groups than it would be if there were a larger number. One of the great reasons why the Socialist party have steadily supported the Bill is because they see in it a step towards the realisation of what they desire, namely, State ownership. I am not discussing now whether that is a good or a bad principle. There it is, and those who desire it are those who have most insistently and persistently supported the Minister in carrying through this Bill. The Minister has told the railway companies and the traders that he is going to introduce greater efficiency. I cannot discover where it is being introduced. I have been able to discuss the subject with those who are connected with railways, but nobody, either director or manager, has held out the slightest hope that it will lead to increased efficiency. In fact, everyone of them have laughed at the idea. A management which will be controlled, hampered and harassed at every turn by the Ministry and by tribunals cannot be expected to produce maximum efficiency.

We are told we will have greater cheapness and that the traders' burdens will be lightened. This Bill is making permanent the burden on traders. The trader is already seeking advice from every source, as to finding means of conveying his goods independent of the railways, and he will have to continue to do so. The right hon. Gentleman says he will effect economies by standardisation, and by unifying management, and so on, but there is full compensation for those who are disturbed, and there can be no economy made over the staff or the employes without compensation on a full scale. We are told that by more efficient management and by this system of grouping we are to get greater economy. There will undoubtedly be some augmentation of the powers and duties of directors and managers in these great groups. They start forth with the best intentions, but, so far as I can gather, the only really beneficent result that this Bill has so far achieved is that it has brought the railway companies and the traders together, and has enabled them to understand that, on many essential points where they thought there were differences, their interests are really similar, and they have joined together to obtain modifications in the details of the Bill, which, however, do not affect the broad principles, but are merely palliatives, without carrying the matter seriously any further. It is true that the interests of the railways and of the traders are identical in principle, and one of the vices of this Bill is that it has endeavoured to set up the principle that they are opposed, and has interposed the Ministry and the tribunals to stand between the traders and the railway companies. All of us who have any interest in these matters have a quarrel with the Minister owing to the fact that he has not treated the House of Commons, or Parliament generally, or the country outside, with the consideration and courtesy which have been usual on other occasions when important semi-judicial tribunals have been set up. This Bill sets up a Railways Amalgamation Tribunal, the names of whose members appear in the Bill, but in regard to the equally important Railway Rates Tribunal which is set up by the Bill, not one shadow of a statement has been made by the Minister as to who these persons, endowed with these vast powers, will be. We have an idea that the Minister really intends to appoint the Chairman of the Rates Advisory Committee, with some of the members of that body, but, if that is so, why could he not say so frankly?

9.0 P.M.

I pass from that matter and will allude to another, which is a little characteristic of the general attitude which is taken up in modern times by Ministries generally. In the course of the Debates in this House the status of the Rates Tribunal was brought into question, and the Minister was asked whether it was to be an independent body or the creature of the Ministry. Certain words were introduced into the Bill during the Report stage which the Minister said were carrying out the practice of previous Parliaments. He said that this semi-judicial tribunal was to report annually to the Minister, and that that was carrying out the precedent of the Railway and Canal Commission, but it was nothing of the kind. The Railway and Canal Commissioners report to the Crown, and within 14 days that Report has to be laid before both Houses of Parliament, which is a very different thing. They are responsible to, Parliament, but this tribunal is to be under the influence of, and swayed by, the policy of the Minister of Transport, whoever he may be at any particular time. I protest, even though I may be a voice in the wilderness, that that is not the proper position in which the Rates Tribunal should be placed. It should be on an equal footing with the Railway and Canal Commission, and it should be a semi-judicial, independent body, and not at the beck and call and under the influence of any Minister who may be in office.

I might make many other criticisms of this Bill. One of the most flagrant points is in regard to the terms in which the duties laid upon the Rates Tribunal are imposed. In so many words it says that their first and paramount duty is to provide for the railway companies the revenue of 1913, giving what may appear to them to be economical and efficient management. The railway companies are prepared to do their best to earn those dividends, and they are prepared to do their best by their customers, but, as it stands baldly in the Bill, the Rates Tribunal have to provide, in the first place, the revenue of the railway companies, and all other matters confided to their care, and all other directions given to them in carrying out their duties, are secondary in importance. We tried during the passage of the Bill in Committee and on Report to get those words altered, and to put, at any rate, the duty of providing revenue of the railway companies and the other duties of the Rates Tribunal on an equal footing; but the Minister resisted those words, and would not allow any other consideration to rank equal to the first duty laid down in the Bill. I think it is essential that the railway companies should be able to earn their revenue, but not through the efforts and directions of the Rates Tribunal. They should earn it as traders carrying out an efficient service in the public interest. They should be afforded every facility to do so, and not be checked at every turn.

One of the greatest evils of this Bill is the system of grouping which has been adopted. I have tried on several occasions in Committee, and once on Report, to test the opinion of Parliament. The main principle on which the railway business of this country has hitherto been based is utterly and totally abandoned by this Bill. The trader is, as far as possible, to be deprived of alternative routes or any competitive bidding whatsoever. He is to be in the hands of one of the groups wherever he may happen to live, or wherever his business may happen to be situated, and his only means of redress, if he has a grievance, if the railway charges him too much, or does not afford him the facilities he requires, is to appeal to one of these tribunals, or to make complaint to the Minister. I contend that we are taking a most dangerous step. It is an irretrievable step. Once these great amalgamations are made, neither Parliament nor the railway companies will be able to tear them to pieces. I contend that the amalgamations should have been on a more tentative and a more cautious scale, and that the existing railway companies should have had facilities to group themselves, instead of being forced whole sale into these great incongruous groups, setting up huge monopolies over vast tracts of the country, and leaving the traffic of the traders without the competitive system which they have hitherto always had in this country, and which Parliament has hitherto carefully fostered and adopted.

I will say, in conclusion, that as a trader acquainted with many other traders, I view with the utmost alarm the result of this Bill upon the development of the railways and its effect upon the trading development of this country which is dependent on the railways. I am not questioning for one moment the bond fides and good will of the present railway directors and present railway managers. I believe they intend to do their best for the traders when they set out to work this Bill; but the principle is wrong, and we shall get into disaster from the traders' point of view, the shareholders' point of view and the public point of view. This Bill is one which ought not to be passed in its present form. I know it is not in order to discuss what is not in the Bill. I will only say that a Bill would be sufficient with very little that is in this Bill. A very great deal is superfluous padding, and is not necessary to meet the present situation. If the railway companies had power to charge rates above the present statutory standard in order to meet the stress of these present times, with appeal to the Railway and Canal Commissioners, or, if you like, to another body with similar experience and authority; if the railway companies were paid their just dues and just debts which the Bill proposes—a very hard bargain, so the Minister says—the situation would be met, and with facilities to railway companies to make those amalgamations which, in their opinion, in their own experience of working, would effect economy and develop their system to the benefit of the public, the traders, and their own shareholders, we should have a Bill which would meet all the exigencies of the case. We should not then have to maintain and endow permanently a Ministry costing, in salaries alone, £350,000 a year, or a vast body of incongruous, and, in many cases, misleading statistics, imposing a vast expense upon the railway companies. We should not have all the expense on railway companies of moving their staffs, providing new offices, paying compensation for disturbance of every kind and description, and we should have a better chance of some economy in railway management, and some relief from the excessively high rates which are killing trade in this country, and rapidly driving it from the railways to other means of transport. The railways themselves are violently alarmed at what is happening. They endeavoured to get an Amendment, which was not accepted, that they might enter into enterprises for road transport. They see where these restraints, restrictions, and controls are driving them. The railways will be no longer their mainstay under this Bill, and they must seek outside in other directions for sources of revenue to enable them to pay their shareholders the dividends which this Bill guarantees, and does not ensure. I shall certainly support the rejection of this Bill.

Whatever may be the result of this Bill and its permanent effect, I hope, at any rate, it will not have the result of creating a precedent for referring a Bill of this magnitude, or indeed any other Bill, to two Committees upstairs. It was my fortune, or misfortune, to serve on both Committees, and, speaking from my own experience, and I think the experience of every other Member who sat on both Committees, it was quite impossible for any one Member sitting on both those Committees with a Bill of this complexity to grasp what was going on in a Committee which we could not attend. In a Bill of this kind, while the fullest possible tribute may be paid to the unfailing courtesy and conspicuous ability of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport, I do say it is only fair to the Committee and to the Members that the Minister in charge should be in constant attendance throughout the proceedings. Having said so much with regard to procedure, I will say a word or two with regard to the Bill itself.

I for my part believe that some such Bill as the Bill before us was, in the circumstances in which we find ourselves, probably inevitable, but like many other Members who have addressed the House this evening, I believe this Bill does contain at least one or two principles which are both uneconomic, and, as I believe, unworkable. The first principle which, I believe, while perhaps not uneconomic is certainly, I think, bad, is the principle which transfers to a tribunal powers formerly exercised by this House. As we know, before the War and before the railways were controlled, many of the powers which are now to be exercised by the Amalgamation Tribunal were exercised by Committees of this House. Those Committees heard witnesses, went very fully into the details of the proposals, and reported to this House. However we may look at it, the transfer of these powers to a tribunal responsible to nobody is really giving away the rights and authority of this House in regard to very important questions. And if it is given away in one direction, I suppose it will be given away in another. Therefore, the precedent I do not think is a good one

The second point in which I think this Bill is bad is the point already referred to by the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Colonel Gretton)—the principle of standard revenue. The endeavour to set up for all time as a basis for your rates this principle of standard revenue, I believe, is not only uneconomic but will prove to be utterly unworkable. I do not agree altogether that this Bill is quite the same Bill that it was when it was introduced a couple of months ago. I believe that in many material respects this Bill has been immensely improved in Committee. Take the first point. In Committee the Minister in charge quite frankly recognised the right of audience of traders in their representative capacity to appear before the amalgamation tribunal. That in itself was a concession of considerable value. But there was another concession. In the Bill, as originally introduced, the Minister might put a veto upon the review of standard wages and exceptional rates. In Committee a provision was inserted that this right of restriction should not apply when there was an application by any representative body of traders who were affected. That was an exceedingly valuable concession, which put an entirely different aspect upon this department.

The third point in which I think we gained very considerable concession was on the question of exceptional rates. It is quite clear from the White Paper which the Minister issued that it was the intention of the Ministry to abolish the whole system of exceptional rates as early as possible. It was not intended when the Bill was introduced that this system of exceptional rates, on which many of us thought a great deal of the trade of the country had been built up, should be continued. As a result of what we did in Committee, and of the arguments which we brought to bear upon the right hon. Gentleman, his whole attitude in regard to this important question of exceptional rates changed during the progress of the Bill through Committee, and although what he did may not seem a great deal, it is undoubtedly true that with these alterations in the Bill there is now less latitude in regard to the granting of exceptional rates, and I think there will probably be no more cause for complaint.

The last criticism which I shall make is one which has already been made. I do not believe that this system of attempting to secure a standard revenue, as laid down in Clause 57, will, in practice, work. Furthermore, I am perfectly certain that, economically, it is utterly wrong. If you attempt to secure a standard revenue without proper consideration of what effect it will have upon the development of the whole transport system of this country, you will inevitably fail. In Committee, and in this House on Report, certain of us introduced Amendments with a view of making this arrangement less rigid. I do not think that some of those who represent the railway companies, or the Minister himself, really gave us full credit for what we were doing. What we were endeavouring to do by our Amendments was that we wished that the railway companies should have the fullest benefit from those economies which they secured by their own efficient management. On the other hand, we thought that those advantages which they gained by lower prices and wages should, to a great extent, belong to the public. We were told that that was impossible, and that it was quite impracticable to dissociate the one from the other. Still, I am inclined to believe that it is possible. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Durham (Major Hills) moved an Amendment with the object of securing to the railway companies a larger share of the results of efficient and economic working in the transitional period before amalgamation; ultimately it was agreed that the railway companies should get 33⅐ per cent, of the economies which were produced from efficient and economic working. If it were possible during the transition period to separate what was due to efficient and economical working, it would as equally possible, after the amalgamations, to distinguish what was due to causes like lower wages and a lower cost of materials from the other charges to which the companies are. subject.

Be that as it may, in Committee and on Report this principle was not accepted. I do not believe it is on the lines of standard revenue, as laid down by this Bill, that you will ever get a satisfactory and permanent rearrangement of the conflicting claims of the railway companies and railway users. Some hon. Gentlemen, and I am speaking more particularly to certain hon. Gentlemen opposite, quite unconsciously and quite unintentionally, I think, spoke as though the sum of £60,000,000 which the railway are to get were a grant ex gratia by the Government to the railway companies. I am sure that if they gave that impression they did it quite unintentionally. The fact is that the railway companies have certain legal rights, both under the Act of 1871, and, more particularly, under the agreements which were made immediately after the outbreak of war, and if those rights were fought out in the Courts it would, in the first place, take a long time —I believe the estimate is something like three or four years—and in the second place it is at least possible that they would be awarded more than the sum they are now to receive. Obviously it is to the advantage of everybody that there should be a settlement of the claims, and that it should be known at once what is due. It is to the advantage of the railway companies, because they want the money, and it is to the advantage of the Government to know as soon as possible how much they have to pay under the agreement. Therefore, I think it is not fair to give the impression that this £60,000,000 is in any sense a dole or grant, or something which the Government might or might not pay. With these observations I wish to say that I shall vote for the Third Reading of the Bill, although with considerable misgivings, having regard to these important points.

The angle with which I approach the consideration of this Bill is not quite the same as that from which it has been approached by the two hon. Members who have preceded me, but nevertheless I agree to a very large extent with the conclusions they have reached. More particularly do I agree with my hon. Friend who has just sat down in his insistence that this Bill is founded on a wrong economic principle in regard to the fixing of rates. I believe that to be a fundamental blot upon the whole Bill. I wish that the House in its fullest numbers had listened to-night to the masterly analysis of this Bill from my right hon. Friend beside me (Sir F. Banbury). I believe he will in the future be able to look back upon that analysis with melancholy satisfaction, though I am certain there will be no hon. Member or right hon. Member in the House, or anybody outside, who will be more delighted than the right hon. Baronet if his forecasts are proved to be incorrect.

I want to say a very few words before this Bill, as I sup- pose it inevitably will, passes to another place. I do not like this Bill at all, I never have liked it, but I think it would be very ungracious on the part of those of us who are opposing it to the bitter end if we did not acknowledge the consistent courtesy and the marked ability with which it has been conducted through the House by the Minister of Transport and the Parliamentary Secretary. In saying that I believe I speak on behalf of all sections of the House. My main objection to the Bill is that, like so much more of the legislation of the Government, legislation which they have proposed and carried, and have to a large extent, I am thankful to say, repealed, it halts between two opinions, and is founded on no single or intelligible principle. It was just the same in regard to the Agriculture Bill, just the same in their dealings with the coal question, just the same in regard to the Bill for the Safeguarding of Industries, and just the same with regard to their housing policy. On every question they have touched they have halted between two opinions, and tried to reconcile antagonistic principles, in brief, to ride two horses going in different directions at the same time. The work of this House has been the task of Sisyphus. These observations apply to the Bill before us. The problem of transport might have been approached, and I believe might have been satisfactorily solved, in either of two ways. You might have adopted the solution proposed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) and others who are associated with him. He and his friends have had the courage and, if I may respectfully say it, the wisdom to put their policy into the concrete proposals of a Bill. I know I should not be in order in discussing the details of that Bill to-night, but perhaps I may be allowed to refer to it to illustrate the objections which I have to the Bill before us. Their solution was frankly based on the collectivist principle. Theirs was a scheme for the nationalisation of the railways. I think that from certain points of view there is a great deal to be said for that solution. It is understood, though I cannot speak positively on this point, that that is the solution preferred by the employes of the railway companies. I doubt, however, whether they would have liked it.

On the Third Reading, Debate has to be restricted to what is in the Bill. On Second Reading we can discuss what might have been in the Bill.

I bow lo your ruling. I was merely referring to that Bill for the sake of illustrating what I regard as an objectionable feature of the Bill before us, and, of course, I shall not pursue that topic. In regard to this Bill, I said there were two alternative solutions, one the collectivist solution, and the other the solution preferred by my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), to restore the railways to their legal owners, to meet our legal obligations; not to toss to the proprietors, as this Bill does, a contemptuous and almost contemptible sop, but to meet them by fair arbitration as between parties on equal terms. I am convinced that if it had not been for the sop of £51,000,000 the majority of the railway companies would not for an instant have looked at the provisions of this Bill. That is my main objection to the Bill before us. On the one hand this Bill is neither frankly collectivist nor is it frankly individualistic. I beg the House to mark that, although the Bill does not accept the collectivist principle, it does not reject the nationalisation solution. On the contrary, there is a great deal of nationalisation in this Bill. There is a very great deal of bureaucratic socialism in this Measure. You have it in the perpetuation of the Ministry of Transport. You have it in the setting up of the Amalgamation Tribunal, with its very rigid machinery. You have it in the setting up of the Rates Tribunal, and the continuation of the many authorities with whom the railway companies will have to confer in the conduct of their business under this Bill.

But the point I wish to impress upon the House even at this last hour, and upon the shareholders, is that whilst power is vested with the bureaucracy the whole financial responsibility will have to be shouldered by the proprietors. It is not the tribunals who will have to pay and suffer if wages or any other charges exceed the ability of the industry to sustain them. I have heard it said that the situation with which we had to deal in considering this Bill was one created by the War. I think the Minister of Transport, in pro- posing the Second Reading, founded a great deal of his argument on the proposition that the situation in which we find ourselves was largely created by the War. It seems to me that that is true in only a very partial degree. It is true that the problem has become far more acute since the War, but it is the policy which was dictated to the railway companies during the War and the control during the War which has rendered the problem so acute. My right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) gave to the House figures which amply substantiate that statement. No industry, whether nationalised or under private management, could possibly sustain the charges imposed upon the railway companies during the War. I have been told, and I shall be told, that under this Bill the railway companies have been endowed with great privileges. What are those privileges? First of all, there is the privilege of amalgamation. We are told that at one fell swoop we are going to obtain what might have taken long and laborious years to obtain otherwise. I suggest that it would have been very much better to all concerned if it had been obtained by a more gradual and a voluntary process. It would have been far better for the traders, for the railway companies, for the community and the public at large if, instead of being forced on us at one fell swoop, this change had been allowed to proceed voluntarily, gradually and in accordance with the interests of the different localities of the country.

In the second place, I think the term has been used that a charter of liberties and privileges has been conferred upon the railway companies by giving them permission to impose, if they can, higher rates and charges than those which they at present enjoy. It has already been pointed out with unanswerable force by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) that it is not the Rates Tribunal which has got to pay these rates. They have to fix them, but they do not pay them, nor have they any responsibility if the rates which they fix fail to produce the results which they anticipate. It is the trader and the passenger who will, or let me rather say may possibly, pay these rates, because there is a limit to what the trader can bear. There is an economic limit. The tribunal may fix the rates at whatever figure they choose, but the actual rates which are paid will be strictly limited by the economic ability of those who have to pay them. In my opinion, this magnificent charter of the railway companies is not worth the paper on which it is written. The best charter, in my opinion, that the railways could have had would have been a real charter of freedom to manage their own business in their own way, to combine or amalgamate if they choose, but always free subject to the ultimate authority of Parliament. A day or two ago I received from a gentleman personally unknown to me who has had 50 years' intimate acquaintance with the actual management and administration of a great railway company. If I were permitted, as I am not, to quote his name, I am sure it would carry very great weight in all sections of this House. He writes:

It has been my misfortune to serve on both Railway Committees, and I wish to join in the protest against that procedure being taken as a precedent for future Bills, because it is a most unworkable and unsatisfactory manner in dealing with legislation remitted from this House. I think also the House will generally agree, whatever their views may be as to the efficacy or otherwise of this Bill, that it does create a revolution in the railway world. That a revolution was necessary most of us will agree, because if the trade of the country is not to be strangled out of existence, the high rates which exist must come down or trade will vanish. In certain industries—the iron and steel industries, for instance—the percentage of rate charges to the total cost of manufacture amounts to something like 15 or 20 per cent, of the cost of the manufactured article, and unless there is a very big reduction in these charges that trade is doomed. The hope some of us entertained in connection with the Bill was that by means of co-ordination and unification such economies might be effected as would enable a considerable reduction to be made in the rates. May I be allowed say our hope in that direction would have been more assured if the abilities and guidance of the right hon. Gentleman who piloted the Bill through the House, and who, no doubt, was the chief architect of its being, were remaining to carry it into existence. His abilities and knowledge, are second to none, and we would perhaps have felt greater confidence if we had been informed that those abilities were to be devoted to carry out the provisions which he has so skilfully piloted through this House.

I wish to join in the protest which has been made against the uneconomic fallacy underlying the basis of rating embodied in the Bill. I and others have sought in Committee to secure certain modifications by way of a larger representation of the trader, and a bigger recognition of the claims of the public generally. We hoped by these means to get some objectionable Clauses with regard to rating modified. I wish to suggest to the Minister it would have been wiser if, when making this revolution in the basis of charges, the revolution had been limited in time. It is within the province of the House, as has been proved in other matters recently, to reverse what has been passed in previous Sessions, and more confidence would have been given to the trading world and to the public if this uneconomic basis of standard revenue embodied in this Bill had been limited in point of time to a period of two, three or even five years, so that the traders and the public at large could be assured that at the end of a fixed period of time this uneconomic basis would be reconsidered and possibly sounder methods introduced. Surely, no matter what words are put into the Bill, it is obvious the service can only be that which is economically produced, and it is creating fictitious hopes to say that rates must be raised to give a standard revenue if the traffic will not carry those rates. It would be more honest if we had stressed in the Bill the importance of carrying out the railway transport system on the basis of developed facilities and extended trade rather than that those responsible should be assured of a guaranteed revenue irrespective of services rendered. I am well aware that the Bill refers to the necessity of efficiency and economy of management, but it would be a sounder economic policy if on fundamental principles the question of standard revenue had been obliterated.

I want to make one reference to what the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Marriott) referred to as the "contemptuous sop" of £60,000,000 handed over to the railway companies. In Committee we discussed the size of this contemptuous sop, and to some of us it seemed a somewhat considerable sum. If the £60,000,000 was a fair sum in the opinion of the Minister at the time the bargain was made, the very rapid change which has since taken place in the industrial world, the rapid fall in prices to which the right hon. Gentleman referred in the course of the Debate—a fall of as much as 100 per cent, or more in certain classes of materials used in railway construction—a fall which might even amount to fourfold before the maintenance of the railway system is re organized—that big fall should have a. modifying influence on this sum of £60,000,000, which is a heavy price for the country as a whole to pay for the bargain which the right hon. Gentleman has made. I submit that, in view of this tremendous fall in value, some modification should be made in this contemptuous sop of £60,000,000, which many of us have protested against as too large a price to pay for the advantages even of amalgamation and co-ordination. May I submit it is unfortunate that & Bill of this magnitude, which is no doubt a revolution in the railway world with regard to fixing rates and the protection which hitherto has been afforded to traders in coming to this House—a protection done away with to a large extent by this Bill—it is unfortunate, I say, that this revolutionary Measure, be it good or bad, should have been rushed through the House at the end of the Session. A Bill so large required most careful and detailed examination by all sections of the House, and if only more time had been given to it I believe a more workable and more efficient Measure would have resulted.

I cordially join with previous speakers in congratulating my right hon. Friend on the tact and courtesy with which he has steered this Bill through Committee and through Report. Whatever may be said as to the merits of the Bill, I can assure my right hon. Friend that so far as the trading community in this country is concerned it was never impossible in cooperation to the railway companies to make the Bill a success. I agree with my hon. Friend who has just spoken that the greatest difficulty many of us have had in giving our undivided support to this Measure was the fact that the Minister and several of his distinguished colleagues in the Ministry are about to leave the service of the State just as this Bill becomes law. I venture to suggest that if, during the course of the Debate, an assurance could be given to those who represent the trading community, and also possibly to the railway community, that the Minister was continuing in office and that some of the officers attached to him, including Sir George Beharrell, would continue to administer this Bill much of the criticism which has been advanced against the Measure would never have been uttered.

I think the hon. Gentleman should express that opinion for himself only, and not as speaking for other hon. Members.

I am speaking for the trading interests. I am certain we felt that if the administration of this Measure was to continue in the hands of the right hon. Gentleman much of the criticism which had been advanced against it would not have been forthcoming. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) said with great vigour, and with all his fulness of versatility, that this Bill is an unsought and unwanted Bill, a hopeless and helpless Measure which never ought to have been introduced into this House. But will anyone who has had any experience of trading conditions in this country since the Armistice really say that some definite measure of reconstruction is not absolutely necessary in the transport system of this country? I say that, whether or not the Measure be, like the curate's egg, good in spots, it was bound to be introduced into the transport system of this country at the earliest possible moment, and I believe that the country will thank the Minister, even though he may be then far away, for carrying it through the House.

Having said that the Bill commends itself to the trading community, I should like to say that in many respects there are serious defects in it. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Minister, when he introduced this Bill, never contemplated that, in whole or in part, it would be subversive of private enterprise in this country. The other night, when I ventured in my humble and respectful way, after the manner of my race, to plead for private enterprise in the manufacture of locomotives and rolling stock, the right hon. Gentleman thundered down upon me like a broadside of 13'5's. He said that this Bill is to be a Bill for the production of efficiency and economy in railway administration, and that there must be perfect freedom between the amalgamated companies to manufacture for one another. I say that, while we have never quarrelled with the contention of the Minister that repairs to locomotives and rolling stock should be carried out as between the amalgamated companies for one another, he should not in this Measure go beyond the already existing legal rights of railway companies to manufacture locomotives and rolling stock for themselves alone. I say to the Minister again that, in Clause 14 of this Bill, there is a definite tendency to destroy a great business industry. The manufacturers of locomotives and the manufacturers of coaches and wagons have rendered invaluable services to the country in the past, and it would be a great misfortune if, through the operation of this Bill, when it becomes an Act, those great enterprises were to be practically wiped out of existence. I appeal to my right hon. Friend to endeavour, even, as has been said across the House, at the eleventh hour, to suggest to another place some modification of this Clause, so that these great industries shall not in fact be destroyed. In regard to the question of cost in the produc- tion of locomotives and rolling stock, I contend that the private manufacturer can beat the railway every time. Indeed, I recall a conference at which, as my right hon. Friend will remember, representations were made to him on this subject, and at which he confessed that the function of the railway companies was, not to manufacture for one another, but to provide for themselves. I hope that before" the Bill becomes an Act he will, having regard to the public interest and to the cheaper cost of production which actually obtains in private works, take steps not to destroy these great industries which have served the country so well in the past. I agree with what has been said by the hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Betterton) with regard to Clauses 57 and 58. I contend that it could not have been the primary intention of this Bill to secure a standard revenue for railway companies. The primary intention was, to use the hackneyed phrase which has gone round the House about a thousand times during these Debates, to secure greater economy and efficiency in railway management. Therefore, the provision of greater facilities for transport should have at least equal consideration in the mind of the Minister with the provision of the means of securing a standard revenue. Another point to which I would call his attention is with regard to statistics, for the preparation of which, at the instance of the railway companies, the Bill provides. I suggest that more detailed statistics, but statistics prepared more cheaply than is contemplated in the Bill, ought to be available to the public, and I hope that in another place modifications will be made in the 8th Schedule which will provide the quality and extension of statistical information which I have suggested ought to be provided for the benefit of traders.

10.0 PM.

I would particularly call the attention of the Minister to an Amendment which was put down asking for the repeal of Section 105 of the Railway Clauses Act, 1845. In Sub-section (3) of Clause 49 of the Bill, it is provided that the Rates Tribunal shall determine what are dangerous goods; but, in point of fact, under Section 105 of the Railways Clauses Act. 1845, the companies are to determine what are dangerous goods. I suggest to the Minister that that is a point which ought to be put right in the Bill. I believe that this Bill, if administered honestly and fairly as between railway companies and the trading public, will do much to develop and foster national enterprise in this country, and I sincerely hope that those who, like the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City pf London, have fought strenuously against the Bill, and those who have criticised it so severely in Committee and in the House, will join hands, when it becomes an Act, to give it the freest and fullest opportunity to effect its objective, namely, greater transport facilities, greater efficiency in railway management, and greater economy in railway administration, so that it may become a definite factor in the economic progress of the country.

The impression that I draw from the Debate this evening is that, in regard both to the Committee and to subsequent stages, the feeling has been that in this matter we are legislating against time and under a kind of duress. We all believe that, with the decontrol of railways coming, as it does, at the end of this week, it is absolutely necessary that we should have something, and, therefore, we are all too content to take anything. I think that the House has attempted, in spite of unprecedented hard work, in spite of two Committees putting in hours which, I believe, have never been put in by a Committee before, in the matter of this Railways Bill, to do too much. We have attempted to do in this particular Bill what ought to have been done in at least three Bills, and over a much longer period of time. I profoundly regret that the Bill was not introduced earlier in the Session. All the time we have had this threat that on 15th August the railways are to be decontrolled, and you must have some new system. That, I believe, has made for bad legislation. Part 3, of course, can be amended next year, and I agree that in its present form it will not stand the test of time, and that Clause 58, with regard to the variation of rates and the functions of the Rates Tribunal, will have to be amended in subsequent legislation. I am sure it cannot last.

But let the country realise that, while Part III can be rectified in subsequent Sessions, while we can evolve another system, while the experience that we gain under this Bill may help us to avoid mistakes in regard to the fixing of rates and such like matters, Part I can never be undone. Part I is the trustification of British railways. It is the formation of all the railway companies of the country, big and small, into four great transportation interests, two of them with £400,000,000 of capital behind them, and anyone who knows what the position has been in Canada and what has been felt about their great transportation interests shrinks from introducing into an old country like this such gigantic transportation concerns as the four great groups which this Bill is going to set up. It is a revolution in our system. The railway system, as I understand it, has been built up by local needs, local knowledge and local initiative. It is a network of small railways linking a vast number of small towns to larger towns, and so on. It ought not to be conceived of as a system radiating from the capital to the great ports.

We have heard too much about the trader and all too little about the humble travelling public, the ordinary man who goes into the third-class carriage. The hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon) says he represents the traders, and all the vast organisations of capital and labour have their interests represented in this House, but we forget the ordinary travelling public—the ordinary man in the distant parts of our islands. He is the man who I believe has most to fear from this trustification of our railways. Everything in the future will be managed by a few super-general managers, all thinking of their great trunk lines and of the competition between the Eastern Group and the Midland Group to Glasgow and Edinburgh, whereas the little humble worker will be regarded by these men as de minimis. The little wayside station— the small country station—will be neglected under this scheme. Any chance of development there is at an end and it will be the Federation of British Industries which will have to get moving before you get anything out of these four transport companies. This is one of the first steps towards the introduction into this country, in transportation matters, of the great American trust system. Let there be no mistake about that, and I believe, of course, such is an inevitable step towards nationalisation.

I should like to say one thing on a point that came up this afternoon. I am delighted that we have struck out of the Schedule that phrase that referred to the traders being specially represented on the boards of directors. The only chance I see is, that we shall not have on future boards of directors the great trading interests of the country. If you do, those men will not be able to give the time which will be necessary to work these big concerns if they are to work properly, and' they will be regarding them from the point of view of shipping or manufacture or something of that kind. It is absolutely essential, if this system is to be worked, that you should have the whole-time directors, representing each of them different localities as far as possible—local representation. That, to my mind, is absolutely vital if the interests of the travelling public are to be conserved. What the country wants more than anything else is an increase of travelling facilities for the humblest of the population, namely, cheaper travelling fares, more particularly for the holidays. If there is one thing that people hope from this Bill, and mean to get out of it, it is lower third-class passenger fares. I hope that will be the first economy that is made, and that the whole thing will not go to assist great corporations to make larger profits.

An important point about this Bill is that instead of the system of maximum rates you are going to have actual rates fixed for every conceivable kind of thing not fixed by Parliament, not fixed even, as I think was suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton), by a responsible Minister but by an absolutely irresponsible outside tribunal. That is a constitutional question which is to my mind of very grave import. And you are setting up a permanent tribunal to deal with this question of rates, which has hitherto been reserved to Parliament. That is a revolution. I would rather have the thing settled by a Minister who can be bombarded at that box than always have these outside tribunals brought in. I recognise that for the work of amalgamation you must have a purely judicial tribunal, but when it comes to this question of passenger fares, exceptional rates and things of that kind handed over carte blanche to a small expert tribunal utterly uncontrolled it is indeed handing over from Parliament enormous powers for the future of trade and the personal convenience of the public to that body and it constitutes a very far-reaching change.

When the Bill becomes an Act I hope the Ministry of Transport will come to an end. I see absolutely no reason for the Bill when it becomes an Act in its present form. I should like to add my voice to the tribute which has been paid to the skill of the Minister in conducting the Bill and in conducting his office ever since the difficult time he took it over in 1919. But when he leaves the ship, with all his experience, it is high time that all the functions which need to be performed went back to the Board of Trade. The sooner it is wound up after this becomes an Act the better, and I shall hope to see next year no further Ministry of Transport but such powers as are necessary exercised, as before, by the Board of Trade. We have at present far too many Ministers in this House.

I hope that when the right hon. Gentleman replies he will give the country to understand exactly what economies he expects from this Bill. We are told that the result of these amalgamations, this trustification, will be that great economies will ensue. I have always had very great doubts about that. I believe that if you take, say, the Eastern Group, consisting of the Great Eastern, the Great Northern, the Great Central, the North Eastern, the North British, and the Great North of Scotland railways, and put them under one board of directors, with one super general manager, they will immediately seek to decentralise into very much of the old companies. They will immediately seek to set up local boards, with local general managers, paid as much as the present general managers, and you will have a super-general manager at £25,000 a year on the top of all the other general managers. I believe that the geography and the history of this country cannot be disregarded in this way, and that so far from getting economies from amalgamation you will really get increased expenditure.

We are attempting too much. There was a great case for the absorption of the smaller companies. We might well have begun there, and then we could have left the constituent companies as individual companies. I believe there are about 100 railway companies at the present time, and if we could have reduced them to 12 or 15 it would have been a much wiser policy than reducing them to four. We have attempted too much having regard to the local needs and the historical situation of this country, and so far from eliminating what is called the vice of competition you are, by this Bill, eliminating the value of competition in all the distant and small local areas. You will intensify competition between great populous centres, between the various groups. You will intensify competition and the waste that comes from competition, and so far from achieving what is in the mind of the Minister we shall have for many years to come Bills introduced into this House—let us hope early in the Session— to amend this Bill when it becomes an Act. We are not out of our difficulties yet. For these reasons I profundly regret that the House has been called upon, at this period of the Session, to pass a Bill of such great magnitude. It would have been far more statesmanlike and far better if the Minister of Transport could have retained his post for another year, to see us over another year of our difficulties, and to have gone more gradually, instead of attempting to achieve the whole thing at one bound, and thereby running very grave risks of introducing elements that may lead to failure.

The extreme individualist and the extreme collectivist are at one in their attitude towards this Bill. They both condemn it. To the individualist it introduces bureaucracy, and to the collectivist it is not a system of nationalisation. Therefore, it is anathema to both of them. Dr. Johnson described his second marriage as the triumph of hope over experience. If one were to attempt to give a definition of this Bill it would be that it is a triumph of practice over theory. I am sure that if the Minister had approached this Bill either as an individualist or as a collectivist he would not to-night have been getting the Third Reading. He is getting his Third Reading because he has approached this Bill as a means for dealing with an actual situation. He had a certain situation to face. What was the situation at the end of the War so far as the railway companies were concerned? There they were with their existing Parliamentary powers of charging certain rates, but rates entirely inadequate to enable them to carry on. Without this Bill, without something done to enable the railway companies to increase their charges, they are bankrupt. Some of them have frankly admitted it.

The right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) has played a solo part in the Committee stage of this Bill. He has not had with him the Railways Association. Almost side by side with him is the hon. and gallant Member for Durham (Major Hills), who has found himself in continuous opposition to my right hon. Friend throughout the whole of the Committee stage of the Bill. That is proof of the acceptance of this Bill by the railway companies, and that they realise how serious the situation is. Then what about the situation of the employés? During the War they were subject to the pressure of the rising cost of living. They relieved themselves from that pressure by getting an increase in their wages. They were face to face at the end of the period of control with the efforts of the railway companies to secure the existence and welfare of their shareholders, as the right hon. Baronet says frankly, by a reduction in the wages, and if there had been no such Bill as this, if the railway situation had not been met as the Minister of Transport has met it, if the solution of the right hon. Baronet had been adopted of simply letting things go back to the pre-War situation, next week we should have been faced with an industrial situation as grave as if not graver than that which arose out of the mining crisis. Who wants that?

May I point out that there is at present power to continue the existing rates for 18 months. My suggestion always was that the railway companies should have power to charge these rates, making them maximum rates, but with power to reduce them if they thought fit.

I know the ideas of the right hon. Gentleman. Not only have I listened to his speeches in this House, but I have read his speeches to his shareholders. What he wanted to do was to get rid of the maximum charges and be enabled to charge whatever he wished.

No. I wanted the maximum charges fixed by Parliament, and I suggested that they should be the charges in force now, with power to the company to reduce those charges if they like, and with power to the traders to go to the Railway and Canal Commission, and if they could prove those charges unreasonable that the Railway and Canal Commission should have power to reduce them.

I remember the speech which the right hon. Baronet made at the last shareholders' meeting, and he has practically said the same thing here. What the railway companies naturally wanted was the present charges without any control at all.

And freedom to deal with their workpeople in the way they thought best. But who dares face an industrial situation such as that would create? Who wants to see the transport industry of the country go through a period such as the mining industry has gone through? That was part of the railway situation which the Minister had to meet, the situation as it affected the shareholders and the men. There was more than that. There was the situation as it affected the community, the taxpayer; there was the situation arising out of the claims which the companies were entitled to make under the railway agreements. I sat for some months on the Colwyn Committee, and in that Committee we tried to find our way through the tangle of those agreements. I think we all came to the conclusion that, as they stood, there was a fair chance of the agreements being interpreted by the Courts in such a way as to place an enormous burden on this country. So the Minister had a three-fold difficulty with which to deal. It is for that reason that this Bill is being passed. Something was wanted that would relieve the shareholders and the railway companies and enable them to go on; something was wanted that would avert the possibility of a great industrial conflict; something was wanted that would bring the claims of the railway companies within reasonable dimensions.

I do not say that this is a perfect Bill. I do not believe that we are hearing the last about the railway situation in this House. This House has been dealing with railway matters for 70 years, and will go on dealing with them, probably, for a longer period yet. As a practical solution of the present difficulties, I think all fair-minded men are bound to admit that the Minister of Transport has in this Bill performed a very difficult task with a very considerable amount of success. However much we may differ on many important points in the Bill, our real attitude will be shown if the right hon. Member for the City of London presses his Amendment to a Division. As has been said, there is not the slightest doubt that there are parts of the Bill which will need revision. I share with the hon. and gallant Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) and with the hon. and gallant Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Thomson) very grave doubt as to whether the principle of finding a standard revenue for the railway companies is one which can last. There is no finality in these matters. What has been done under this Bill has been to get us over a very difficult period in the industrial and commercial history of this country for the next two or three years, and to give us breathing time for collecting ourselves and dealing with the problem as it will then present itself. It is true that those hon. Members who want the railways to return to the old conditions of competing interests are not likely to be satisfied with the Bill, but those of us who believe that, generally speaking, in our industrial evolution we shall get larger and larger units, and that in that way we shall secure economy and efficiency, are not afraid of the direction in which this Bill travels. It is not a party measure; it cuts across all parties. But at the end of its passage I feel that it is a good thing that we have had a full Debate on the Third Reading. Between 7.30 p.m. and 8 p.m. it looked as if there would be no Debate. If that had been the case it would not have been worthy of the occasion, of the work put into the Bill, or of the work which the Standing Committee did. In passing the Bill we are taking a really great step forward in the commercial and industrial advancement of this country. I want to add my expression of congratulation to the Minister of Transport on the successful achievement of his work. If he is going out of political life, he is doing so with the consciousness that he has performed one great task as probably few other great men in this country could have performed it.

I feel I must thank the House and those hon. Members who sat on the Committees upstairs, for the very careful and very fair and very helpful consideration which they have given to what, without exaggeration, is a very complicated Measure The Bill undoubtedly has been very much improved. I welcomed, both in this House and upstairs, suggestions which have been made. A great many of them were very valuable and helpful suggestions, and undoubtedly the Bill now is a far better Measure than it was when it first reached this House. I make no apologies for saying that it required a great deal of revision and called for a great deal more consideration, comparatively, than other Bills of a character which do not require serious Amendment upstairs. Even so, after very careful review, the Bill is returning to the House in main principle as it left the House. It has been improved in many important matters, but the main principles are the same. It is said that the Bill has been rushed through and that adequate time has not been given for its consideration. Well, we have had to work hard, but I think it is unique to be able to say that a Bill like this— considering the hours we had upstairs and the fact that two Committees were dealing with it—went through the whole Committee stage, and came down here, and that the Closure has only been applied six times in the whole course of those proceedings.

Since the Kangaroo was introduced in connection with it, there has never been a single Closure applied and the Guillotine has never been applied downstairs, and no Considerable section of the House will say that the important proposals of the Rill have not been discussed. The criticism to-night has really been criticism from individuals who, conscientiously, but as individuals, have opposed the Bill throughout. It is probably also unique in the case of a Measure of this character, and this size, that it should have come into the House with no political party opposing it. There are, I know, those who desire nationalisation, but apart from that principle they did not oppose this Bill. Not only did no political party oppose it, but no con- siderable interest opposed it. The traders and the users, so far as they can make their voices heard collectively, were backing it; the railways were backing it; the financial interests were backing it; and so far as labour is concerned, once nationalisation was put aside and leaving that question out of account, I think I may say, that labour was also backing it. Apart from the constructive criticism, which I have already acknowledged, and which I again acknowledge very fully, the opposition has been that of individuals. There is one part of the Bill more than any other which has received criticism— criticism with which I am in considerable sympathy, and that is Part III of the Bill. If one were starting with a clean sheet; if one could do what one thought best, without having to consider the situation as it existed at the end of the War, I do not think one would have introduced the principle of fixing charges at a level to yield a certain revenue under efficient and economical management. I have tried to avoid it, but all the suggestions made by those who oppose the Bill in principle on this point, fail in one respect. The suggestion made in one form or another is to leave the railways to manage their own business, to give them sufficient charging powers, to give them, in fact, complete freedom to charge anything they want and leave them alone.

The suggestion is that the present level of rates would be a suitable charging power to give them. No one has really followed out the suggestion with a view to the question of how the community is to protect itself. Will anyone advocate in this House the giving of the railway companies the right to charge whatever they like? The community is entitled to see, as far as it can, that it is going to get the lowest rates and it is entitled to see that the railways are managed economically. If the charges were not to be based on a very low level and the railways allowed to sink or swim—and consider what prices and costs were a year ago—then what were we to do? With costs as they are to-day, no one could fix, and no tribunal could fix, a permanent level of maximum charges which would be fair to the community. You have got, quarter after quarter, tens of millions coming off the cost of working the railways as it is. The sliding scale operating on the employes is bringing it off £10,000,000 at a time, and materials are coming off at £10,000,000 a quarter and more than that. No one could fix charges to-day which would be fair to the communuity; any charges fixed today are certain to be far too high, and therefore the railway companies would simply have complete freedom within those limits.

What we have done is this. We have set up a tribunal. I would like to give as much information as I have to my right hon. Friend, but I cannot tell him, because I do not know who the other members of the Rates Tribunal will be. The Government has invited Sir F. Gore-Browne to be the Chairman, and that is the only member of the tribunal whose name I can announce, not because I am reluctant to do so, but because I have not been entirely idle for some considerable time. That tribunal has been set up as a judicial tribunal, and in passing I would say that it is rather remarkable that a judicial tribunal should be derided because it is not under some control. You must either have an independent tribunal or not, and if you are not going to have an independent tribunal it must be under somebody. No responsible body of opinion has seriously suggested that the rates should be fixed by the Minister; it would be an impossible, task. We have got an independent tribunal, and what is their immediate duty? It is gradually to bring down rates as costs automatically fall. You have got to do that. No suggestion has been made anywhere to get us out of that difficulty, that rates to-day are at an entirely abnormal level. They were put there on the recommendation of the railway companies to meet the existing situation. They are abnormally high, and they have got to come down as costs fall. You must have someone to do that. You have got to choose between that and allowing the railways to bring them down as they like, and I do not think the House will be prepared to say: "We leave it entirely to you, without the pressure of any competition, to bring the rates down." There has been no competition in rates on railways, certainly in my time. We give it to the tribunal to do that. I do not know whether it will take 10 years or more to get things normal. I do not profess for a moment that this is an ideal way of arranging the revenue and charges of a railway, but I know of no better way to meet the existing situation. No Member of this House, or of the Committees upstairs, so far as my judgment goes—and I have not been in any way wedded to this—has given us a really careful, thought-out solution of how to meet that situation, and the House has confirmed what was done in every case when put to it either in Committee or downstairs.

The other thing that we are doing is to group the railways. Have we any precedent? Has anyone else had any precedent? We are grouping them because we believe that it will enable economies to be made and that those economies will come back to the users of the railways. Every responsible railway spokesman before every Committee, Royal Commission, and Inquiry, for the last 30 or 40 years, has said that these economies are greatly needed by the railways and necessary to the community. No one can say without being challenged exactly what will come in from these economies. You might put any figure you like. As I say, every responsible railway spokesman considers that economy is necessary. It suits the railway companies to say that it cannot be so great. That is their business. They would much rather make economy and get credit for it afterwards, and they will make economy. The very companies which to-day are saying: "What is in your amalgamation? There is nothing in the grouping," tried to get Parliament to group on reasonable terms —the Great Northern, the Great Central and the Great Eastern—and they came to the conclusion that the terms were to be too onerous, and that too many restrictions were placed upon them, and so they decided to do what they could without Parliament. It has been given in evidence and in speeches that there were to be great economies made in that grouping. The same thing has been given on every occasion when there has been amalgamation in this country, and there is no reason why these amalgamations, greater, as they are, than previous amalgamations, should not give corresponding economies.

My third point is that America has done this. America has adopted very much the same plan. She has put her railway system—I speak from memory—into ten or 12 groups—of course, larger groups than ours—to get economy and better administration. It is simply following out the practice of the last century. We are laying the foundation, as I see it, for the next century. But I do not say that, within the next 20 years, defects will not be found in this Measure. Of course, they will be found. Of course, modifications will be brought in. But one thing, among others, I do think will result, and that has become apparent in the Committee stage. The mere fact that the trader is realising, and, I venture to say, realising for the first time, that the demands that he makes upon the railways have got to be paid for by someone, is bringing the trader and the railway closer together. They have got closer together progressively as this Bill took shape, and went through Committee and came down to this House. They have got closer and closer together in community of interests, and now I see that if this can only be continued, if the trading community, the organised users of the railway system —I do not mean the big traders, but traders as a whole who use the railways— study railways—because they are not a simple thing like running a turnpike road —and make use of the statistical information which, with all its imperfections—and no system of statistics is perfect—will really give an index of what the railways are doing, and compare the systems of the civilised world, there will be an enormous improvement, not only in the co-operative working between railways and traders, but greater co-operation, I submit, between labour and railway companies. Labour will see the effect of their demands. They will see it is no use pressing in a particular direction, because the costs, which they will have to share inevitably, will fall on them. In the spirit of cooperation between labour and railways, between traders and railways, and with the Group proposals, the Bill, with all its imperfections, in my humble judgment, opens up a new era for the whole community in transport, and a reduction in rates.

I see the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton (Mr. G. Lambert) has come in, I would like to refer to a remark he has made on more than one occasion. He has stigmatised the Bill as a corrupt bargain. In what way is it corrupt? If corruption is meant, it is an aspersion upon those who have endeavoured to make a Measure which they honestly believe is fair. Is that corruption? What has been underhand? There has been no bargain out-side that has not been declared at once. Traders, users of railways, workers, and the companies were dealt with freely and frankly. There was nothing concealed in that. There was nothing corrupt in it.

It may have been obvious, but 60 was the action of the hon. and gallant Gentleman in the matter of the Hull and Barnsley Railway.

Yes, and if we had had 20 Members we would have carried our point.

But I do protest against word "corrupt." We may be wrong. My hon. and gallant Friend may object to the whole Measure, root and branch—I believe he does. But I protest

against the use of the word "corrupt." It is not a corrupt bargain. It is a fair and honourable bargain, made in daylight. I submit the Bill, after the most exhaustive examination, to the judgment of the House. I believe, with its imperfections—and I do not deny that there must be imperfections in a Measure of this kind—it is the best we can do at the present time to meet the very abnormal position that exists. I believe that Part III, particularly, may require reconsideration and amendment as the years pass. I do not pretend that the system of altered rates to give an assured revenue, so far as you can, is a good one. But I believe it is the only system you can have at the present time. I ask the House to give the Bill its Third Reading.

Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 237; Noes, 62.

Division No. 335.]

AYES.

[10.50 p.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Hills, Major John Waller

Ainsworth, Captain Charles

Davles, Sir Joseph (Chester, Crewe)

Hinds, John

Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

Armstrong, Henry Bruce

Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Hood, Joseph

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Denniss, Edmund R. B, (Oldham)

Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn'n.W.)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Doyle, N. Grattan

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Barlow, Sir Montague

Edge, Captain William

Hopkins, John W. W.

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham, S.)

Hunter-Weston, Lieut-Gen. Sir A. G.

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Jameson, John Gorden

Barnston, Major Harry

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff)

Elveden, Viscount

Johnson, Sir Stanley

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Evans, Ernest

Johnstone, Joseph

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Bethell, Sir John Henry

Farquharson, Major A. C.

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Betterton, Henry B.

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Kenyon, Barnet

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Foreman, Sir Henry

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Forestier-Walker, L.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Borwick, Major G. O.

Forrest, Walter

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Breese, Major Charles E.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

Brown, T. W. (Down, North)

Galbraith, Samuel

Lindsay, William Arthur

Bruton, Sir James

Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge)

Lloyd, George Butler

Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Gilbert, James Daniel

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

Burgoyne, Lt.-Col. Alan Hughes

Glanville, Harold James

Lorden, John William

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Glyn, Major Ralph

Lort-Williams, J.

Butcher, Sir John George

Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)

Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

Campbell, J. D. G.

Green, Albert (Derby)

M'Connell, Thomas Edward

Carter, R. A. D. (Man. Withington)

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)

Casey, T. W.

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)

Cautley, Henry Strother

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)

Greer, Harry

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

Gregory, Holman

Maddocks, Henry

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Greig, Colonel Sir James William

Mallalieu, Frederick William

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E.

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Clough, Sir Robert

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

Manville, Edward

Cohen, Major J. Brunei

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Mason, Robert

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Hallwood, Augustine

Matthews, David

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Middlebrook, Sir William

Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely)

Halls, Walter

Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B.

Mitchell, Sir William Lane

Ratcliffe, Henry Butler

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell (Maryhill)

Moles, Thomas

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Molson, Major John Eisdale

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

Thorpe, Captain John Henry

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Townley, Maximilian G

Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

Reid, D. D.

Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Remer, J. R.

Tryon, Major George Clement

Morden, Col. W. Grant

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Wallace, J.

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Morris, Richard

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

Rodger, A. K.

Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Whitla, Sir William

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill)

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Neal, Arthur

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.)

Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Wilson, James (Dudley)

Parker, James

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Brldgeton)

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Seager, Sir William

Wise, Frederick

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Seddon, J. A.

Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Perkins, Walter Frank

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Stanier, Captain Sir Seville

Worsfold, T. Cato

Poison, Sir Thomas A.

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Pratt, John William

Stewart, Gershom

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Prescott, Major W. H.

Sturrock, J. Leng

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Purchase, H. G.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Sugden, W. H.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Taylor, J.

Younger, Sir George

Ramsden, G. T.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Randies, Sir John Scurrah

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Raper, A. Baldwin

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.

McCurdy.

NOES.

Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

Grundy, T. W.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Rose, Frank H.

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Royce, William Stapleton

Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)

Sexton, James

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hirst, G. H.

Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

Bromfield, William

Hogge, James Myles

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Cairns, John

Irving, Dan

Smithers, Sir Alfred W.

Cape, Thomas

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Spencer, George A.

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Swan, J. E.

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Kennedy, Thomas

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Kidd, James

Waterson, A. E.

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lawson, John James

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Mills, John Edmund

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Gillis, William

Murchison, C. K.

Winterton, Earl

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Myers, Thomas

Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Gretton, Colonel John

O'Grady, James

Mr. G. Balfour and Mr. Atkey.

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Bill read the Third time, and passed.

Private Business

TAF FECHAN WATER SUPPLY BILL [Lords]. (By Order.)

As amended, considered.

CLAUSE 16.—(Consideration for transfer.)

(1) As consideration for the transfer of the Taf Fechan water supply undertaking under the foregoing provisions of this Act the Board shall:

( a ) Pay to the Merthyr Corporation as from the date upon which the Taf Fechan Reservoir is completed and filled with water an annual sum equal to six per centum of the amount by

( b ) Pay to the Merthyr Corporation from time to time the sums required for the payment of all interest and loan charges as from the appointed day on any loans incurred by the Corporation in respect of the Taf Fechan water supply undertaking and outstanding at the appointed day, which sums shall be paid to the Merthyr Corporation three clear days before the respective dates on which such interest and loan charges are due for payment by the Merthyr Corporation or within seven days after receipt of notice from the Merthyr Corporation requiring such sums to be paid whichever shall be the later. Provided that in the event of any such loan falling due for payment and the lender not being willing to renew the same the Board shall three days prior to the date upon which the loan is due to be repaid (if they shall have received from the Merthyr Corporation not less than two months' notice of that date and of the amount of the loan) pay to the Merthyr Corporation the money necessary for the repayment thereof (so far as such money is not provided out of any sinking fund formed by and standing in the name of the Merthyr Corporation) and if the prescribed period in respect of the loan has not expired may borrow and re-borrow under the provisions of this Act (with any necessary modifications of those provisions) during the remainder of such period an amount or amounts equal to the amount of the money paid to the Merthyr Corporation by the Board for the repayment of the loan.

I beg to move in Sub-section (1), paragraph ( a ), to leave out the words "of the amount by which," and to insert instead thereof the words "on the amount by which the aggregate of ( a )."

11.0 P.M.

I am very sorry to have to trouble the House with a private Bill after consideration in Committee, but I indicated on the Second Reading that there were some special considerations to be dealt with. For the sake of future authorities promoting Bills of this kind, I wish to point out that there has only been one Committee. I know there are advantages in a Joint Committee of both Houses on private Bills, but judging from the circumstances in this case, I think these authorities in the future would be well advised not to agree to an arrangement of this kind. When you have a Committee of each House there is always an opportunity after the decision of the first Committee to have questions reconsidered. Before going any further I will indicate the course which I understand you, Mr. Speaker, agreed is desirable to follow. For the relief of the House I will say at once that the remarks I am going to make will all be made on the first Amendment and on that only. As to the other propositions many of them are alternative arrangements to the original arrangement embodied in the first Amendment and after that I understand I may be able to get consideration for the other side for one or two small Amendments which will be formally moved without speech. I have to make one bold statement as an explanation of this first Amendment. I am perfectly certain that the statement will astonish the House, but I do not know it will astonish it more than the proof of it. Would the House believe that this is what in fact has happened in connection with this Bill. The Merthyr Corporation, owning their waterworks, one of which has been in their possession since 1852, has been placed in this position, that another outside adjoining authority wanting water has been allowed to come in, and the substance of the terms is this that they come in and take away Merthyr's reservoirs for nothing, Merthyr having to pay on a capitalised basis £600,000 for having the reservoirs taken away from them. I am going to give figures and facts as compactly as I can to prove that.

I am not going into much history. There is one other point the House, I am sure, will appreciate, and it is this: Merthyr had no need to build reservoirs for her own purposes, she had enough water for herself and always has had enough. She has made adequate arrangements of many years for that purpose but as adjoining authorities with industrial populations developed they found it necessary to go into the same valley to get water from the same source. In order to get it they had to submerge the lower of the three reservoirs by building lower down the valley a larger reservoir which swamped the Merthyr reservoir. They came to this House in 1911 and promoted a Bill and said "We are going to build a larger reservoir to supply ourselves but we agree to give to you, Merthyr, for the reservoir we are going to swamp the two million gallons of water you are now getting from it for nothing. That was undoubtedly a fair and reasonable arrangement. But the Merthyr Corporation decided that it would be far better that they should be allowed to control their own reservoir and so they promoted a Bill in 1911 to do this work themselves and they undertook the obligation of supplying water to the other people. That Bill passed through both Houses of Parliament and in 1913 Merthyr put out a contract for the construction of the works which went on until—and here I want the attention of the Minister of Health to this matter because I think there is a stage at which he has come in on this Bill—until the Local Government Board, as it then was, on behalf of the Government in 1916, stopped the whole of the works.

The whole works have been stopped ever since. If it had not been for the War, we should not be discussing this matter here to-night. If it had not been for the War, Merthyr would not have lost her reservoirs; if it had not been for the War, these thirsty people in Monmouthshire would all be drinking to their hearts' content. But, the works having been stopped all these years on account of the War, it became necessary, owing to the statutory obligations which had been placed upon Merthyr, to bring a Bill up last year. That Bill was brought up, and, although it was opposed by the other authorities, it again passed through two committees of both Houses, and it passed finally into law, with a Clause placing upon Merthyr an obligation to come up this year with another Bill forming a joint board of these authorities to control the works. Merthyr, therefore, brought up a Bill, as requested, to constitute this joint board. The other people who were to come in, not being satisfied about certain terms in regard to it—to which I am going to refer in a moment—brought up a competing Bill to form a joint board. Those two Bills were sent together to a joint Committee, before whom they were discussed hotch-potch, and I notice in the evidence that the chairman several times said to counsel, "I do not understand this," and counsel said, "I do not understand it either," as between the two Bills. There were a lot of Welsh words and a lot of Welsh pronunciation, and I am certain that the Committee will have the sympathy of the House in its difficult task. The real point at issue was this: Merthyr said that the question of terms should be sent to arbitration, and, right throughout, all the terms of the Bill were to be submitted to an arbitrator. The other people would not have an arbitrator at all, but said they would insist on having it settled upstairs, and this is how it has been settled in the end by the Committee upstairs. As I have said, they have taken away from the borough the whole of its waterworks. They do not pay Merthyr for the waterworks a penny in a lump sum at all, but they said to Merthyr, in their Bill, "We will give you 5 per cent. interest on the money you have paid in past years since 1852 for these works of yours." The Committee altered that to 6 per cent. to improve it a little. Then, having agreed to do that, and to take over the obligations and control and everything for the future, this astounding arrangement was made.

It is admitted, and it is not in controversy, that Merthyr gets the water now from her reservoirs for 3d., plus l½dt for distribution, that is to say, 4½d. altogether, per 1,000 gallons. The minimum amount to be fixed by this Bill is 1s. per 1,000 gallons, and as soon as the system comes into operation Merthyr will have to pay 1s. for every 1,000 gallons that her inhabitants get. Those are the terms, fixed. If some kind of adjustment had been made as against the 1s. and the cost of taking the waterworks we should not complain. It is easy to explain how the Is. arises. The tender for the new works, when put out by Merthyr in 1911, was about £400,000. Because of the war, and because the Government had to stop the works, that £400,000 to-day becomes £1,065,000, and it is this £1,065,000 that changes the cost from 4½d. into 1s. This is where I said I wanted the attention of the Minister of Health. I had to take to him to-day a deputation from Merthyr. We were received with every consideration, and eventually we managed to get consent to 200 houses out of 2,000 that it is urgently necessary to build, because owing to the financial state of the country the housing programme is being cut down, and so on. I believe these authorities can manage to keep on for the next four or five years without any serious shortage of water. They are not going to finish their works for seven or eight years, so that the need of the water will not arise for seven or eight years. Why, therefore, cannot the Minister of Health put upon these people the same retardation that he has put upon the Housing Committee? Why should they next year convert £400,000 into £1,000,000, and put that permanent burden upon their constituents as well as mine? Why should they here and now fall into the same blunder that it is alleged has been made by the late Minister of Health of a full housing programme at to-day's prices, that puts a perpetual burden like this upon the community? Before this thing finally issues the Minister ought to look into this question of the burden upon these authorities and weigh up the expenditure upon this work as against the expenditure upon housing.

There is an extraordinary thing about this 1s. a thousand gallons. One can conceive of a joint scheme where all the authorities pool all their water and charge a level price all round amongst all the authorities, but they have not done that. All the other seven authorities who have succeeded in getting this Bill in Committee have kept their own supplies to themselves at low rates, but they have taken Merthyr's larger reservoirs away, and are going to make her pay the whole 1s. for every drop. That is an extraordinary feature of this arrangement which has emanated from the Joint Committee. As the result of that we get this position financially, that this change from 4d. to 1s. per 1,000 gallons is roughly about £54,000 a year to Merthyr. She gets £24,000 a year for the 6 per cent. on the money she paid over for her reservoirs before, leaving roughly £30,000 a year extra, which is a 2s. 5d. rate. That is what that imposition makes, and if you realise that at 16 years' purchase at 6¼ per cent. it is a capitalised value of £600,000 that Merthyr has to pay for the privilege of having her Waterworks stolen from her by other people. I know it is very difficult for this House in a few minutes to adjudicate upon a statement of this kind, and I am not going to ask the House to adjudicate upon it, but I have had to call attention to this, first to give Members of the Committee an opportunity to give the explanation they have to give from their side. I know that one thing that weighed with the Committee was this. They said "As this thing has become £1,000,000, it is an enormous burden for Merthyr to carry." How is Merthyr going to raise money by herself on the security of these waterworks to the extent of £1,000,000"? They said that it was far better to spread it out over the lot of them. Merthyr has her financial difficulties like most authorities, but who have they brought in to prop her up? Pontypridd, with rates over 30s., and Rhondda, who have not been able to pay their teachers' wages for three weeks. I do not believe that the argument about raising the money is a substantial one at all. In his case you are not raising the money on the ordinary assessable value of the borough, but you are raising it on the value of the waterworks as an enterprise, with the agreement and obligation of these people to take the various minima they have asked for.

During the past week, with the aid of the Chairman of Ways and Means, we have tried to get some agreement so that there shall not be bad blood over this business, and that if there is to be a Joint Board it shall work in harmony and try to make the best of the circumstances; but the people on the other side would have no conference; they would not consider it. They said it was too expensive to bring their people up to a conference, but to-night, when the fireworks are on they are all here. The least one could have expected would have been that there would have been another effort to come to terms. I suggest that they should meet the Minister of Health, and that they should not enter into any further contracts at the present high prices. They will have to come with another Bill in a year or two in order to straighten out this matter. There are many things in this Bill that cannot be worked, and they will have to be straightened out. In a friendly spirit I give the other side this hint, that it would be far better for them to have a reasonable partner in with them than a partner who feels aggrieved and bitter over arrangements that appear inexplicable and onerous in the extreme, and who feel that a great injustice has been done. The whole of these works have been in the hands of Merthyr up to now. They have been able to turn their unem- ployed on to them. A Joint Board will have no interest in the citizens of Merthyr, in their employment or otherwise. The whole of these works and the mains will be within the confines of Merthyr, and they will have power. If they are bitter, if they have a serious grievance, they can make it impossible for the Joint Board to function at all; and that would not do good either to Merthyr or anybody else. I appeal to the parties to get together and see if they cannot come to a settlement before the end of next year on reasonable terms. The other side can throw thorns throughout Merthyr, but they will have to walk on them, and it will not be for them to complain if their feet bleed.

As one of the Members who sat upon the Joint Committee, I may reply to the invitation of my hon. Friend (Sir Edgar Jones) and make some observations as to the attitude of the Committee on these rival Bills. The question of the water supply for these areas in Glamorganshire and Monmouthshire has been before this House and the other House for something like the last twelve years, and an enormous amount of money has been spent by the rival authorities in promoting and opposing Bills. I assume that that was one of the reasons why it was considered desirable to send these rival Bills to a Joint Committee for consideration. There were four Bills submitted to the Joint Committee for consideration. Of two of them I need not say anything, as they refer to methods of distributing water. Of the other two, one was promoted by the Merthyr Corporation and the other was promoted by five urban district councils and the county councils of Glamorganshire and Monmouthshire, and it was supported by other district councils. I will not follow my hon. Friend in what he said about stealing the waterworks on Merthyr, because both the rival Bills had the same object in view, namely, the promotion of a joint local board. Both proposed to transfer the same properties to the same local board, and the only difference was as to terms and price. Under their Bill the Merthyr Corporation proposed to charge a substantial profit on the transfer from themselves to the new joint water board. That was not approved by the Joint Committee. The effect was that they threw out the Bill promoted by the borough council and passed the Bill which is now before the House.

The first point of difference in the two Bills was the question of price for the properties and the second was the basis on which the deficiency in revenue was to be shared. One of the reservoirs of which my hon. Friend spoke, that which will be transferred from Merthyr under this Bill, is a leaking reservoir and cannot be depended on to carry out the purpose for which it was intended, and in each of the two Bills that reservoir was to be abandoned and merged in the Taf Fechan reservoir which is to be created.

It is common ground that Merthyr, with its present obligations, cannot raise the money for the construction of this reservoir; its rates are something like 30s. in the pound. Therefore, it is desirable that the whole of the communities which are to be served by this Water Board should join and pledge their credit to construct the reservoir. Under this new Bill Merthyr will be relieved of the liability to construct the reservoir. It is also to be reimbursed its total expenditure for any depreciation and it gets an increased annuity in respect of total expenditure—from 5 to 6 per cent.—and it is relieved of all outstanding loans and interest; and, of course, it gets the benefit of any cheap water until the reservoir is completed. Only after that does it come in and pay the increased amount to be borne by every one of the constituent authorities. Therefore the Committee came to the conclusion that it was desirable that the Bill promoted by the five urban councils, with the support of the two county councils, should proceed, and that the Bill promoted by Merthyr should not proceed.

I was also a member of the Committee that considered this Bill. For the last twelve years there have been contests between the various authorities in the Rhymney Valley for the control of certain water rights. The Merthyr Corporation is under an obligation to the other authorities to supply them with water. At present there are three reservoirs under its control. It has to supply 900,000 gallons a day to the Rhymney Valley and 600,000 gallons to another area. Other authori- ties, therefore, are interested in the Merthyr waterworks besides the Merthyr Corporation. If they had been entrusted with powers to construct Taf Fechan reservoir they would have had to supply to other authorities in the Rhymney Valley 4,000,000 gallons per day, and further quantities to other areas. When Merthyr came to Parliament in 1911 to get powers for the construction of Taf Feehan reservoir, Parliament gave the powers. One of the main reasons put forward by Merthyr at the time was that an existing reservoir was leaking, and they had failed to stop the leakage after a considerable expenditure of money. This leaking reservoir will become derelict and will be submerged in the new reservoir that is to be constructed. An obligation will lie upon the new authority under the Taf Fechan Bill to pay to Merthyr any interest they have been called upon to pay for every penny spent on that derelict reservoir. I am not surprised that the hon. Member for Merthyr (Sir Edgar James) has brought this question, forward. I think he was justified in doing so. When in Committee I heard the case developed on behalf of Merthyr my sympathies were with Merthyr. I took into consideration the fact that Parliament had given powers to construct these works and that that construction had been suspended owing to the War. There was a good deal, therefore, to be said for Merthyr coming forward again They came forward to Parliament in 1920 and asked for an extension of time. It then developed that there was an element of doubt as to whether the Merthyr Corporation, owing to their financial position, could carry through these works, and Merthyr came under an obligation to seek powers for the transfer of the undertaking to a Water Board. Hence a Bill came before the House, along with a competing Bill from the other authorities on the Rhymney Valley, and the issue presented was so complicated that it was determined to refer the whole matter to a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament. That Joint Committee sat for seven days, and carefully considered the vexed question of how best to deal with the necessity of entrusting to some authority powers to give the much needed increased supply of water to the Rhymney Valley. The Committee was pre- sided over by Lord Kintore, who brought to bear upon the subject great experience, judgment and impartiality, and a knowledge of Welsh Water Bills. The decisions of the Committee were unanimous. As I have said, I was sympathetic with Merthyr, but as the case developed I came to the conclusion that there was only one course open to the Committee, namely, to give the powers sought under the Taf Fechan Bill to the Rhymney Valley authorities. In doing so, we felt convinced that this Bill presented a far better prospect of carrying through to a saitsfactory conclusion the execution of works for the supply of the Rhymney Valley.

The Bill embraces all the authorities in the area, with the support of the Glamorganshire and Monmouthshire County Councils. The Merthyr Corporation could not count on the support of all the authorities, and from the financial position presented to us it was doubtful whether sufficient public funds would be forthcoming to enable Merthyr, under the proposed water board, to carry out the undertaking. We agreed unanimously to reject the Merthyr Bill and to pass the preamble of the Taf Fechan Bill. The Taf Fechan Bill proposed to give Merthyr 5 per cent. on all monies expended on the undertaking, and, in addition, it proposed to take over all outstanding loans and obligations of Merthyr. I am bound to say I think Merthyr has made a very good bargain indeed. The Committee increased the amount of interest from 5 to 6 per cent. We felt that Merthyr in the past had had the benefit of a cheap supply of water and they would have to pay more in the future, and as some compensation to them for the taking of their reservoirs we agreed to increase the amount to 6 per cent. There are three main points involved in this question. First, there is the contention between the parties as to the price to be paid for the works. Merthyr wanted the present market value of the works, that is to say, what it would cost to-day to execute the works which was carried out by them in pre-war time. That meant a highly-inflated price. Had that price been given it would have put in peril the whole prospect of providing the necessary supply. What the Committee determined upon was the taking over of all the outstanding loans of Merthyr, and paying them six per cent. interest, in the form of an annuity, for all they had spent in connection with their works.

The other point was the charge for the water. The Merthyr water cost them 4½d., but there was no guarantee that when the new works were constructed Merthyr was to continue to have the water for that; they would have had to pay a very much higher price. The contention was put to the Committee that we should have differentiated in favour of Merthyr, that we should have made one rate for Merthyr and another rate for the other bodies, but that did not appeal to the Committee at all. We thought that complications would arise, and so we fixed, as is proposed in the Taf Feehan Bill, an all-round charge of Is. per thousand gallons. It is agreed that in addition to the Is. per thousand there will be a deficiency, and the question of how that deficiency was to be defrayed arose. Merthyr wished it to be borne according to the valuations of the different authorities, but many of those authorities had very large valuations and would require only a small supply of water over a limited part of their territory, so that it was hardly fair that their whole valuation should be taken into account. What we determined upon was that the deficiency should be borne according to the reservation of water. One authority wanted 1,000,000,000 gallons a day, and they would pay accordingly, and another authority which only wanted 650,000 gallons a day would pay accordingly, and so on, and I submit that that is a fair and equitable decision to come to. It was not without giving the greatest care and attention to the case as presented to us by Merthyr, and considering the whole interests of all the parties involved, that the Committee came to their decision. We felt some sympathy for Merthyr, but we had a larger consideration, namely, consideration for the public interest and the general good, and, keeping that in view, we came to the only decision that any fair and impartial Committee could arrive at, by rejecting the Merthyr proposals and agreeing to pass the preamble of the Taf Fechan Water Supply Bill.

I do not desire to put the House to the trouble of a division at this hour of the night, and am quite prepared to withdraw this first Amendment, on the understanding that we may get the two small Amendments as to payment being quarterly and the elimination of revenue being used for the construction of new reservoirs. On that understanding, I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

I wish to correct the impression given by the speech of the hon. Member for Merthyr (Sir Edgar Jones) on the Second Reading, and which he has repeated to-night, that this was an attempt by Monmouthshire to steal water from Glamorganshire. I want to explain that of the five urban authorities in Monmouthshire and Glamorganshire which are on the line of the pipe that will be laid from these waterworks, four are mainly in Glamorganshire, and are excellent in quality. They showed that during the War. It is in the main a question of the supply of water for Glamorganshire, and secondly for Monmouthshire. I am going to accept at once the compromise offered by the hon. Member for Merthyr, if he be willing to withdraw the Amendments, with the exception of the one he requires dealing with Clause 16, which, I understand, has reference to the payment of the annuity, so that instead of being paid half-yearly, it should be paid quarterly; and further, that no power should be given to the Water Board, when formed, to use surplus revenue to construct, improve or in any shape extend their works. On behalf of the promoters, I accept the compromise, if this be not taken to a division. I ought also to say that, whatever the position of Rhondda is, Merthyr is far worse, and we are coming in as a partner to relieve Merthyr with regard to obligations that will be entailed to carry out these waterworks for the two counties concerned.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments made: In Sub-section (1, a ), after the word "equal" ["payment shall be made by equal"], insert the word "quarterly."

Leave out the word "and" ["and the first day"], and insert instead thereof the words "the first day of April."

After the word "July" insert the words "and the first day of October."—[ Sir E. Jones. ]

Certain Promoters Amendments agreed to.

Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the Third Time.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]

Bill accordingly read the Third Time, and passed, with Amendments.

Water Undertakings (Modification of Charges) Bill

As amended ( in the Standing Committee ), considered.

NEW CLAUSE.—(Provisions as to value of undertaking.)

Nothing contained in this Act or in any order made under the powers of this Act shall increase or be deemed to increase the value of any water undertaking or part thereof in the event of such undertaking or part thereof being purchased by any local authorities or joint board or combination of local authorities.—[ Sir B. Cooper. ]

Brought up, and read the First Time.

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Amendment is to try to prevent an unreasonable increase in the capital value of the water companies being brought about as a direct result of the increases that may be made in this Bill. The point comes with particular force to my mind because in South Staffordshire there are a number of local authorities that at the outbreak of the War were negotiating with the South Staffordshire Water Works for the acquisition of the company's undertakings. I want to make it quite clear that there is no objection raised by any of those local authorities to a fair and reasonable increase in the charges which are necessitated by the abnormal conditions under which the undertakings, like other industrial undertakings in the country, necessarily have to work. The Amendment is brought forward on account of the anxiety felt by these local authorities; an anxiety that may be felt equally by other local authorities who may, in future, contemplate taking over their local water supplies; anxiety first of all that the increased charges that will be permitted under this Bill will undoubtedly increase the incomes of the companies over and above what is necessary to meet increased charges. I believe it is held by those responsible for this Bill that the maxi- mum dividends cannot be exceeded. There is some anxiety on the part of the legal advisers of some of the local authorities as to whether the operation of this Bill will really preserve those maximum dividends. What does create a feeling of very great anxiety is that there is nothing in the Bill to prevent the water companies throughout the country increasing their charges, not solely to enable them to meet the increased charges, but for the purpose of paying back dividends, which may in some cases go very many years back, and in addition they have the opportunity of laying by reserves equal to 10 per cent. of their nominal capital. Local authorities have some experience of what they may expect under this Bill from the operation of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920. Experience has shown that the Board of Trade generally disregards any other circumstances than the particular circumstances mentioned in the Act, namely, increased costs—in the case of gas undertakings since June, 1914, and it is seen that the increases of income are more than enough to meet the increased charges and are largely adding to the capital value of the companies.

In the case of gas this is not so serious as in the case of water, because in most parts of the country, certainly in the large industrial districts, gas has the competition of electricity; whereas in nearly every part of the country water is a monopoly. That makes the case as regards this Bill infinitely more important than it otherwise would be. I think I have said enough to show that there is grave anxiety, and I think there is justice for saying that as these Bills operate in practice these water companies will be able to show increased charges which it is impossible for any Government Department to examine sufficiently to satisfy themselves that they are necessary. Further, in my judgment, these companies will under this Bill be able to increase their capital value. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will either accept this Amendment or suggest some other form of protection which in his judgment may be more suitable. My only purpose is to protect the interests of the community, so that in the case of the municipalisation, or it may be nationalisation, of the water undertakings of the country the community will not be fleeced by the companies.

I am afraid I cannot accept this proposal. The Clause reads:

"Nothing contained in this Act or in any order made under the powers of this Act shall increase or be deemed to increase the value of any water undertaking."

It is obvious that if you increase the maximum charges you must to some extent increase the value of the undertakings. This new Clause, as it stands, would contradict the principle of the Bill, and it would not make sense of it. There seems to be some confusion on this point in the minds of those for whom my hon. Friend is speaking, because maximum dividends are not affected by this Bill. The object of the measure is to enable water companies, with the permission of the Minister of Health, to increase their charges to enable them to exist, but none of the powers in this Bill will enable them to go beyond their Parliamentary maximum. There is power to decrease as well as to increase the charges, and if it can be shown that the charges are too high, that would have to be taken into consideration in fixing the purchase price. The fears of the hon. Baronet who moved this Clause are not well founded. All this Bill does is to place a number of small water companies in the same position as the House has already placed the larger companies. No less than 14 big Bills dealing with this very subject have been passed this Session, and in none of them has it been thought necessary to insert a Clause of this kind. Speaking on behalf of the smaller companies I think it would be grossly unfair to saddle them with a Clause of this kind which has not been imposed upon a company in any Bill passed this Session.

12 M.

I do not think that the Minister of Health has given this Clause the attention which it deserves. It may be quite true that in the case of large Bills this Session no such Clause has been moved, but there are reasons for that. Private Bills do not receive the attention that is paid to Public Bills in this House, and when they come down here they are generally passed without any comment. The Measure before us, however, is one dealing with the whole of the water undertakings in the country. The Minister is pressing this Measure forward on behalf of the smaller companies, but the hon. Baronet who moved this Clause has already pointed out the danger which may arise and which the right hon. Gentleman has admitted may arise. The Minister of Health says that this Bill must affect the value of these undertakings, and that to insert this Clause would be wrong, because the purpose of the Bill being to increase the value of the water companies you cannot put in a Clause to prevent that taking place. If the right hon. Gentleman can assure us that he is going to accept an Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson) dealing with this point, I do not think that we should be inclined to press this new Clause, although I am afraid he has already used words which seem to indicate that he is not going to accept even that Amendment.

I propose to accept the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Middlesbrough.

In these circumstances, I ask leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

CLAUSE 1.—(Modification of provisions affecting water charges.)

(1) Where on the application of any water undertakers it appears to the Minister that for the purpose of meeting any increase in the cost and charges of and incidental to the carrying on of the undertaking attributable to circumstances arising since the fourth day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen, which were beyond the control of and could not have been reasonably avoided by the undertakers, an Order under this Section should be made with regard to the undertaking the Minister may, if he thinks fit, by Order—

( b ) provide for the modification of the provisions of any award or agreement which determine the price to be charged by the undertakers for the supply of water or for any fittings, materials or service in connection therewith;

Provided that no such modification shall be made except such as may be reasonably necessary for the purpose of meeting such increase.

(3) An Order under this Section may—

( a ) fix the date as from which the charges authorised by the Order shall become operative;

( b ) revoke, vary, or modify, in whole or in part, any Order relating to a water undertaking made under the Statutory Undertakings (Temporary Increase of Charges) Act, 1918;

( c ) contains such incidental supplemental, and consequential provisions as may be necessary to give full effect to the Order.

Amendments made: At the end of Subsection (1,

"and that, where the undertakers are a company, no modification shall be made which, in the opinion of the Minister, would enable the company, with due care and management, to pay a dividend on the ordinary stock or shares of the undertaking in excess of the maximum rates prescribed for the undertaking or to make up the deficiency of any previous dividends which shall have fallen short of such rates."—[ Mr. T. Thomson. ]

In Sub-section (3, a ), after the word "operative," insert the words "being a date not less than four weeks after the Order is made."—[ Mr. Lorden. ]

CLAUSE 2.—(Procedure for making Orders.)

(1) Before making an Order under this Act the Minister snail require the applicants to give, in terms approved by him, and in such manner as he may consider best adapted for informing any local authorities or other persons affected, public notice of the application for the Order, and as to the manner in which and the time within which the objections may be made, and as to the manner in which and the place where any documents submitted to the Minister in connection with the application may be inspected and copies thereof made and purchased, and shall consider any objection which may be duly made, and in the event of any objection being made and not withdrawn shall cause an inquiry to be held.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "applicants," to insert the words

"to serve notice of the application for the Order upon any local authority affected and."

The object of inserting these words is to protect rather more fully the local authorities, and make it obligatory that they shall have notice served upon them.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made:

In Sub-section (1), leave out the words "local authorities or."— [ Mr. T. Thomson. ]

Bill read the Third time, and passed.

Supreme Court Officers (Retirement, Pensions, Etc.) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

This is a very small Measure, and is part of an attempt to increase the efficiency of and reduce the expenditure upon the courts. It deals, firstly, with the compulsory retirement of certain officers of the Supreme Court, and also provides for their pensions. At the present moment, in the case of the officers mentioned in Part I of the First Schedule to the Bill, there is no compulsory retiring age. It is proposed that they should be compulsorily retired at 72, which is the age fixed by the House of Commons for County Court judges, and which seems to be a reasonable age to fix. With regard to pensions, these officers have been on the basis of ordinary civil servants, but there has been what is a most unsatisfactory system of giving them added years, because, of course, they come into their offices late in life. They do not, like civil servants, enter young, and therefore, when it comes to pensioning them, they have to have added years, which is a most unsatisfactory method. Instead of that, the Bill provides that they shall have, after five years, ten-sixtieths of their salary, whatever it may be, when they retire, with an addition of one-fortieth for each year after the first five years. Of course, they would not be allowed to retire on pension under a certain number of years without a medical certificate.

The real reason why the Bill is essential—it ought to be passed this Session—is in connection with Clause 4, which deals with the registrars in the Chancery Division. According to the law as it stands at present, there have to be 10 registrars and 12 clerks, with certain qualifications. If that were obeyed, and those registrars and clerks were still existing, the cost to the country would be something like £23,000 or £24,000 per annum. They are not necessary, and have not been for many years past, and therefore the law has been ignored, and the registrars have been allowed to lapse. It is now the intention that, instead of 10 registrars, there shall be six, and an equivalent number of clerks. The registrars are appointed from the clerks, who have to have certain qualifications. There is some doubt as to whether some of the existing clerks and registrars, although they are perfectly competent to do their work, and are doing it admirably, do actually come within the statutory requirements as to qualifications, and therefore the Bill provides that there shall be this lower number of registrars and of clerks, that those who are there shall be deemed to be properly qualified—as they are in fact, even if they are not technically—and that there shall be power to fill two vacancies which will arise between now and the next sittings of the Law Courts. The matter is not very complicated, and I hope I have made it clear to the House. Really what the Bill does is to provide for greater efficiency by making these officers retire when too old, so that they may be replaced by younger men, and it provides for less expenditure by reducing the number of registrars and clerks.

I am afraid I cannot say, but it certainly is not pensionable if they are.

Is the right hon. Gentleman quite correct in that answer? Assuming that they are in receipt of war bonus, are they not civil servants, and would they not, therefore, being in receipt of war bonus, be entitled on retirement to 50 per cent. of their war bonus? I understand that civil servants, under the war bonus system, are entitled not only to the retiring allowance on their ordinary salary, but on 50 per cent. of their bonus; and that they will be receiving that in perpetuity. If that is so—

These are not civil servants. They have been treated in the past for the purpose of pension as on the basis of civil servants, but they are not civil servants. This Bill changes the whole basis. They are no longer treated as civil servants for the purpose of pension, but are put on a separate scale of pension of their own. I will, however, look into the matter raised by the hon. and gallant Member, and see whether there are any of them with bonus. If that is the case an Amendment can be moved in Committee.

I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. If he investigates I think he will find that these gentlemen are in receipt of war bonus, and that in addition to anything that appears in this Bill they are entitled to pension on 50 per cent. of their bonus for the remainder of their lives. I am quite willing to agree to the scale which appears in the Bill, but in Committee I shall offer the strongest opposition to pension on that scale, plus 50 per cent. of war bonus. I object to war bonus being treated as pension and being enjoyed for "the remainder of the pensioner's life, regardless of whether the cost of living comes down to the 1914 figures. In Committee I will raise the point again.

I hope the Government will not press this Bill to-night. I am not saying it is a bad Bill. There are, however, several important points which call for attention. Take the question of the compulsory retirement of the official referees. There are three official referees working at the present time, and one of them, a thoroughly efficient gentleman, is over the age of 75. Will this Bill mean his immediate retirement? This Bill was not included in the list of Bills which on 26th July the Leader of the House said would be proceeded with this Session. All the people affected by this Bill are members of the legal profession This Bill was not introduced until 1st August, after the legal vacation had started, so that practically all the people affected have been away from London since that time.

I do not know who they are with whom it has been agreed. This matter has not been before the Bar Council or the Incorporated Law Society. I can assure the hon. and gallant Member for Fylde (Colonel Ashley) that some of these gentlemen are in receipt of war bonus. I should like to know whether as soon as this Bill passes it will mean the immediate retirement of the official referees to whom I have referred.

I understand that this Bill is the result of a great deal of negotiation and discussion, and that so far as the present holders of office are concerned the Lord Chancellor has agreed with them all.

Will it have the immediate effect of retiring the officials in question?

The Home Secretary says that it has been agreed with these people.

We have to decide these matters. The gentleman to whom I referred said recently that he had no intention of retiring for years. These questions of pensions are very complicated and difficult. We remember the unfortunate misunderstanding which occurred in the last Pension Bill as to whether it was intended to include or exclude stipendiary magistrates. In view of the statement of the Leader of the House, it is in the nature of a breach of intention to take this Bill now. With respect to the registrars, they ought technically to be appointed, but they have not been appointed for some years, and if they were not appointed for another six months no harm would be done. I urge the Government not to proceed with the Bill this Session.

I have been looking through this Bill as carefully as I could, and it seems to me that on the whole its provisions are good. Though I see the weight of the arguments addressed by the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Rawlinson), I am not inclined to refuse to vote for the Second Reading. I am glad that the Government does not propose to take the further stages to-night, because I would like a little more light as to one point mentioned by the Home Secretary. That is as to the probability of anticipated savings. I agree that it is better to substitute definite statutory provisions as to pensions for a system of adding years in respect of each particular person, according to the strength of the case which he can bring up. That is one of the points which ought to commend the Bill to the House. But it rather depends on what the facts are as to the computation of the pensions as to whether the new form of computation is going to be a saving or the reverse. I am not wholly without suspicion that if it has been agreed, as I dare say it has, that some of these officials who had previously looked forward to going on to a more advanced age are to retire at the age of 75, it can only be because the arrangements with regard to pension are more favourable than they anticipated if this Bill did not pass. Therefore I am a little bit inclined to wonder where the savings come in.

With regard to the age of 75, I know that we have some very notable instances of legal persons retaining extraordinary activity of body and of mind up to a very advanced age, but I cannot help feeling that probably no great loss would accrue to the public service in general, or to individual persons in particular, if the persons on this or any other Schedule were required to retire on reasonable pensions at the age of 75, considering that in a great many other callings men are required to retire at a very much earlier age. I do feel a little bit shy about the pensions provisions. I hope that the Home Secretary will obtain such information as is possible before the further stages of the Bill, if we give it a Second Reading now.

I shall be very pleased

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time.

I beg to move "That the Bill be committed to a committee of the Whole House."

Before this be agreed to, would the right hon. Gentleman make some statement? If we are told that Bill is not to be proceeded with, and them it is proceeded with, how can we conduct business? On 26th July the Leader of the House whom I am glad to see now present, said—

The Question before us now is that the Bill be committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

This is a Bill of considerable complication, dealing with matters which cannot be settled offhand.

There can be no discussion. I have allowed the hon. and learned Member to put the question as a matter of convenience, but no discussion can arise on the Question which I have put from the Chair.

The only question I wish to ask is whether the Leader of the House, who, no doubt, has been told what has been said, can see his way to send this Bill upstairs to Committee, which no doubt would necessitate its going over to next Session.

I do not think there is anything in my statement as to the Business of the House which would prevent the Government proceeding with this Bill. I was under the impression when we put it down that it was substantially a non-contentious Measure, and I believe it is one to which the highest legal advisers attach very great importance. I am not myself able to deal with the merits or the necessity of the Bill without further notice, but I would be very glad if my hon. and learned Friend would speak to me about it, and I will look further into the matter if desired.

I am much obliged. Question put, and agreed to.

Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.

Land Settlement Amendment Bill

Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

Admiralty Pensions Bill

Not amended ( in the Standing Committee ), considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

Isle of Man Customs Bill

Order for Second Reading read

I beg to move "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

This is a Bill which is introduced every year, and which is principally of interest to the House only in so far as it is a herald of the approaching end of the Session. The purpose of the Bill, as may not be generally known to all Members of the House, is as follows: According to the Constitution of the United Kingdom and the Isle of Man, the Isle of Man has got full power in its own House on matters of Customs and Excise, and controls those for itself. It passes Resolutions fixing its duties and customs in the Court of Tynwald. Those Resolutions have force only for six months after they have passed, or, if this House is sitting, during the remainder of the Session of this House. It is for that reason, before this House rises, in order to prevent the Customs and Excise régime of the Isle of Man falling into the most lamentable confusion, that this Bill is to be passed, in order to sustain the statutory force of those Resolutions of the Court of Tynwald of the Isle of Man. This House is not wont to concern itself with the details of the Customs operation or the Excise matters of the Isle of Man, and I think it will be enough, in explaining this Measure to the House, if I mention that the provisions that have been made for this Island this year are all of the nature of bringing the system of the Isle of Man into rather closer approximation to the system of this country. Finally, I should like to make it clear that the provisions which hon. Members will find in this Bill are simply enforcing Resolutions which have already been passed for itself by the Isle of Man. I have all these Resolutions here, under my hand, and there is nothing contained in the Bill which has not been already enacted by that arrangement of a free community.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. Gilmour.

Public Works Loans Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

This Bill is another "hardy annual." It appears always at this season of the year, and deals with certain matters, which perhaps I may very briefly explain. The Public Works Loan Commissioners have imposed upon them the duty of issuing certain capital funds for the use of the smaller local authorities for various purposes prescribed by Parliament. They issue this money out of the Public Works Loan Fund, and in order to make these issues they have to obtain the authority of the National Debt Commissioners. The primary purpose of this Bill, which this House is wont to pass year by year, is to limit for the following year the total amount—that is, the maximum amount—which the National Debt Commissioners are to have authority to allow the Public Works Loan Board to issue to the local authorities. That is the principal purpose of the Bill. But the Bill serves also a very minor purpose, and it is this. At certain times it is found, owing to unfortunate circumstances, that small sums issued by the Public Works Loan Board to local authorities and others, owing to insufficient security, have become irrecoverable. Authority is given to write off such a bad debt, and later on in the year an Estimate is presented to this House, and a Vote is passed, in order to make good to the Public Works Loan Fund the amount so written off. In a few exceptional cases a further provision is contained, to exempt, under certain circumstances, from paying this debt so written off. The only case in the Bill is that of the Eyemouth Harbour, which has been running for some years. The House may desire that I should refer to the amount which this Act gives authority to the National Debt Commissioners to issue to the Public Works Loan Board this year. It is the same amount which this House has voted last year and the year before; a sum of £40,000,000. The main issue of the sum is accounted for by the fact that upon this method of finance has been thrown the burden of financing the housing scheme. I would like to make it quite clear that this sum is not all fresh provision, but a large amount is unexpended on what we gave authority to advance last year. It is simply a repetition of the authority given last year, which is very nearly half the total amount. This Bill is a routine matter and it follows the form adopted year by year.

As the hon. Member has said, the purpose of this Bill is to enable the National Debt Commissioners to issue certain loans for the purpose of public works, I have no objection to Sub-section ( a ) of Clause 1 of the Bill, which authorises the Public Works Loan Commissioners to issue any sum not ex- ceeding in the whole £40,000,000 sterling for public works, but to Sub-section (1, b ) I have the greatest possible objection. What does it say—

"For the purpose of loans by the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, any sum or sums not exceeding in the whole the sum of one hundred and fifty thousand pounds."

What does that mean? It means that these Commissioners may advance during the next 12 months, or thereabouts, a sum not exceeding £150,000 of English money to Irish local authorities. The Secretary to the Treasury will, I am sure, correct me if I am wrong, but, as I take it, under the Bill as it stands now, it seems to me that the House of Commons is an exceedingly trusting body if it passes this Sub-section. If we advance from now any sum of money to local authorities in Ireland there is not the slightest chance of that money ever being repaid. Everybody knows that there is not the remotest probability of these sums being repaid, as the Government has apparently made up its mind to give up any attempt to control three-fourths of Ireland. We are going to give them practically independence on a Dominion status. It is an outrage on the financial decency of this country to propose that the Public Works Loan Commissioners should advance £150,000 of our money to these local authorities when there is not the slightest chance of recovering it. I speak as an English Member, and I think that every English Member of this House on this Bill who does not raise his voice against handing over English money to the Irish local authorities when they are going to have complete fiscal indedendence or complete Home Rule far greater than they have got under the Government of Ireland Act of 1920, will not be doing his duty to his constituents nor to his own pocket. Therefore, even if this Bill has been a "hardy annual," though possibly in former years it was perfectly justifiable that we should give this authority, I do most strongly protest—I am only one among the whole House—personally against the Second Reading of this Bill, handing over £150,000 of our money and throwing it into the sea, with not the slightest chance of ever getting it back.

I am glad to hear the hon. and gallant Gentleman, who is an English member in some Irish associa- tions, who, I believe, is in the happy position of being an Irish landlord—

—and who is unable to resist the temptation afforded to him by this Bill of delivering what is really a political attack. He talks to-night about "our money." I do not know whether when he uses the word "our" he is speaking as an English Member or as an Irish landlord—

May I interrupt the hon. Member? Will he guarantee that the Irish Parliament, when set up, will advance £150,000 for local works in England, because, if so, I will withdraw my opposition.

When the hon. Member used the word "our" was he speaking as an English Member or as an Irish landlord?

As an English Member! Really, these Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde performances are really remarkable! On this particular amount he is speaking as an Englishman. As a rule, he speaks as an Irishman, with very exceptional authority on the Irish question, and I congratulate him on assuming the rôle of an Englishman. I would point out that this is not English money. It is money to which Ireland contributes its full proportion, and a great deal more. My hon. and gallant Friend used to be an advocate of doing justice to Ireland, and I am surprised at this new-born enthusiasm against the Government and its Irish policy. He says that there is not the ghost of a chance that this money will be recovered. That is an extraordinary doctrine to come from an Irish landlord. This country advanced many millions to abolish Irish landlords—I am not sure whether the hon. and gallant Member has sold his Irish property—but many millions were advanced to buy out the landlords, and every penny has been repaid.

There has not been one penny of the debt charge becoming due which has not been paid.

I do not see how Home Rule affects it. The people of Ireland will repudiate no honourable obligation, and, there is nothing to justify the hon. and gallant Member in saying that there will be any repudiation of liability which the Irish people have voluntarily assumed. If this was for Irish landlords there would not be such a suggestion made, but because landlords are gone, or are going, he thinks there is no right for anyone else to get any money. I do not think that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will be unduly impressed, but will proceed with the utmost composure with this Measure.

The Financial Secretary has referred to Part I of the Schedule. He referred to the £10,000 lent to the Eyemouth Harbour Trustees and the £200 written off, but he did not refer to Part II, which deals with the position in Ireland, and I notice that my hon. and gallant Friend did not refer to it either. Now it appears that we have made a very bad bargain, because Mr. Creagh Hickie has had grants of £3,490—

This Mr. Hickie is a landlord. He is a friend of the hon. and gallant Member (Lieut.-Colonel Ashley), and he has not paid back the money.

The State seems to have lost £2,607 14s. 6d. That seems a bad bargain. It seems we are going to lose the £150,000 we are advancing for the Irish part of this Bill, and I wish to know whether the money is really recoverable. I think, in the present position of Ireland and self-government being imminent, we ought to hesitate before advancing sums of money at this time of the night.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ Colonel Leslie Wilson. ]

Education (Consolidation) Bill [Lords]

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

This is a Bill consolidating Enactments relating to education, and certain Enactments relating to the employment of children and young persons. When I describe it as a Bill for consolidation, I mean what I say. It is a Bill for consolidation only, and it contains no new law, and no amendment of the existing law. In connection with such a Bill as this there are three questions which arise. The first is whether it is desirable that the law should be consolidated; secondly, whether it reproduces the existing law, and, thirdly, whether there have been ample opportunities for consideration. As to the first point, I think there can be no question. The law as to the education and employment of children and young persons is at present scattered over some thirty different Statutes, which is most inconvenient and complicated. The desirability of such a Bill has been present to the mind of the Board of Education for sixteen years. It has frequently been pressed upon the attention of the Board both in the House and elsewhere. It is very long overdue, and the present moment, when there is a lull in educational legislation, seems to provide a very favourable opportunity for introducing this Bill, as to the need for which there is no serious question.

I come to the second point: Does the Bill accurately reproduce the present state of the law? May I remind the House of the procedure which has been adopted? The Bill was read a Second time towards the end of April in the House of Lords. It was then referred to a Select Committee, consisting of five Members of the House of Commons and five Members of the House of Lords, presided over by Lord Muir-Mackenzie, who has a very long experience in connection with Consolidation Bills. I think I may assure the House that the consideration given to this Bill by that Select Committee, which contained many eminent lawyers, was neither hasty nor perfunctory. The Committee, from the out- set, had the advantage of a memorandum which called specific attention to every point of doubt and difficulty which had arisen in the framing of the draft, or which had been suggested by outside persons who had perused it, and the Committee gave very full attention to all the points mentioned in the memorandum. Most careful criticism was received from Mr. Mundella and Mr. Edwardes Jones, who are experts on such matters. These gentlemen attended the meetings of the Committee. They were offered every opportunity of stating their views, and on a great many of the points they put forward, the Committee were able, substantially, to meet them.

The only important points upon which they were unable to agree were two points mentioned by Mr. Edwardes Jones which are dealt with in Appendix 2 of the Report of the Committee and the point mentioned by Mr. Mundella which is dealt with on page 3. The House, I think, will fully realise that in a task of this description it is inevitable that there must be on occasions some difference of opinion as to whether the law is precisely stated or not. It would be beyond the dreams of most of us to expect in a matter of this kind that there should not be some few points of difference on questions of detail. But I think I am fully entitled to make a claim for the Bill as it reaches this House that it has been very carefully considered in the Joint Select Committee and that it does to the best of the knowledge and belief of the Board of Education adequately represent the existing state of law.

I come to the question as to whether the Bill has really received adequate consideration. The consolidation of the Education Acts has been in draft for a year, and the draft was sent to a very large number of persons representing every conceivable form of opinion. Any representation which they desired to make was considered before the Bill was introduced into Parliament, and the Board of Education is very much indebted to the gentlemen who sent in observations for the care and attention which they devoted to the subject. The Bill itself was printed at the end of April in the present year, and there have been substantially three months in which anyone interested in the subject might discuss it or make any representations. The Board has every reason to know that the Bill was carefully considered in many quarters, and as soon as it was published they received some representations. It was suggested by one speaker in another place that there has not been time to consider the Bill, but I venture to think that this is an observation which is entirely unjustified.

The House will realise that this is a Bill for experts and that the general public cannot be expected to enter into a profound consideration of the details of a Measure of this character. But there can be no question that not only has there been ample time to bring forward any observations which it was desired to make, but also that the Bill has received such an amount of care and investigation as to exclude, in so far as it is humanly possible, the chance of error. Perhaps in this connection I may mention that Lord Muir Mackenzie, Chairman of the Joint Select Committee, described the Bill as a masterpiece of draftsmanship. There is only one other point to which I think it necessary to allude, and that is the particular question as to the time which this Bill, assuming that the House agrees to pass it, should be brought into operation. My right hon. Friend the Member for Camborne (Mr. Acland) has brought to my attention a difficulty which has occurred to him. It is in connection with the last Clause of the Bill, Clause 173, Sub-section (3). This Sub-section runs as follows: the moment be brought into operation. They are Sub-sections (1) and (2) of Section 8 of the Education Act, 1918, and Section 14. These are Sections which have the effect of abolishing exemption from attendance at school between the age of 5 and 14, and these Sections of the Act can only be brought into operation after the conclusion of the War under the terms of the Education Act, 1918. There is also Section 10 of the Act of 1918 dealing with continuation schools which again can only be gradually brought into operation.

In order to meet any objections which may be raised under that head, I can give this undertaking to the House, that, if this Bill passes into law, the Board of Education would desire to bring the whole Bill into operation as soon as it is able to bring into operation Sub-sections (1) and (2) of Section 8 of the Education Act, 1918, leaving Clause 76 in the Consolidation Bill dealing with continuation schools to be brought into operation when it is possible to fix appointed days for different areas. Such an undertaking as this would meet the particular objections which my right hon. Friend in a conversation raised, and I hope I may find that this is the case. With these words of introduction, I trust that the House will give a Second Beading.

1.0 A.M.

As the Minister has explained, this does consolidate many statutes, but there are features which are unprecedented in a Consolidation Bill. Certain Clauses may come into operation on different appointed days for different classes of persons. That has never been done before in a Consolidation Bill, and it leaves the whole of the education law of the country in possible chaos because, if the Minister were pressed, say by the Anti-waste party, he might say, "They are pressing me to leave part of the law out of operation, and I can do that by an administrative stroke of the pen by not making an appointed day. While my right hon. Friend is there we can rely on his statement that he has no intention to do that which, would bring about chaos. The difficulty is that it gives legislative sanction to the idea that the continuation classes of the Act of 1918 are regarded as something which will come into force this year, next year, sometime, never, something different from and not to be brought into operation with the general education law of the country. With regard to one or two other points, with all respect to my right hon. Friend, I am not quite sure that persons who have taken an interest in this Bill have had time to consider the many points which it raises. The Bill was considered in June by a Select Committee, but it was only on 15th July that the Report of that Committee was available, and the Report raises certain matters about which there was considerable doubt.

The Chairman of the Committee suggested that they should be left for the consideration of Parliament, but it is difficult to see how time can be found for the purpose. There was, for instance, the duty of the local education authority to provide school places. As the Bill came from the Select Committee, it was left that the local education authority had to find school places somehow, but the vital words which safeguarded the right of the child to a place in a public elementary school were left out, and had to be inserted on the Third Reading in the House of Lords. As technical points of that kind were only brought before Parliament and the public by the Select Committee in their Report pupblished three weeks ago, it is rather hard to suggest that this Bill should be put through now without giving any possible opportunity of amending it.

Only if there be no opposition.

I am hoping there may be no opposition. I am simply calling attention to these difficult and definite points emphasised by the Committee which the other place had no opportunity of considering. I do think there has been a definite alteration of the law with regard to the right of objection by managers of voluntary schools to work being done in those schools by visiting teachers provided by the local authority in special subjects. I think there are real points where the law has been altered by this Consolidation Bill, but subject to these remarks I do not want further to object to the Second Reading. It is not quite a Consolidation Bill in the ordi- nary sense, and owing to the importance of the Report of the Select Committee the matter should be looked into rather carefully.

Is it intended to take this Bill further to-night? It is an important Bill, with a great many Clauses.

I do not wish to object to the Second Reading being taken to-night. What I do object to is that a Bill of this size and of this character, very much exceeding in size the Bill that we have spent a great many weeks over—the Railways Bill is not nearly so comprehensive as the Bill with which we are now dealing—

May I interrupt the hon. Member? The only Second Reading point raised in the Bill is whether it is desirable that the law should be consolidated. Points of detail will arise in Committee, but in general, when a Consolidation Bill has been carefully considered by a Committee representing both Houses, it is allowed to pass. But I quite realise that my hon. Friends have made very valuable suggestions and I do not wish to press the Measure further than the Second Reading at this stage.

The point which I am endeavouring to make is whether it is desirable that a Bill of this character should be brought on in this House at this time, with so small an attendance. I listened closely to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, and I really wondered whether there was any need for the House of Commons at all. He told us that this Bill, which was in draft over 12 months ago and which was sent all over the country to this person and that person, had been considered by a Committee composed of five Members of this House, and that it was a Bill for experts, which the general public did not understand. The whole of his argument appeared to be whether it was a matter for the consideration of this House at all. His final remarks led up to that point. My right hon. Friend the Member for Cam-borne (Mr. Acland) is an expert, but the Minister seems to say that the Bill is one for the expert and that the ordinary Members of this House are not entitled to say anything at any time whatever. What is this Bill doing? It is repealing all the Enactments dealing with legislation set out in the Seventh Schedule. Here are page after page of Bills which are on the Statute Book at present and are in force all over the country dealing with educational questions. What is the proposition? The proposition is to repeal these Enactments, and to leave the operation of this Act entirely in the hands of the Board of Education. If hon. Members opposite who are so indifferent to what is happening, and have probably never had the Bill in their hands and have never looked at it, would look at Clause 173 and read what the Clause says, they would find that the Clause says, in Sub-section (3):

"This Act shall come into operation on the appointed day"—

that is, the repeal of the other Acts, and this Act, are to come into operation on the appointed day, and that appointed day shall be

"such date as the Board of Education shall appoint."

All Education Acts may go by the board, and this Act is to come into force when the Minister thinks fit. Not only is it to come into force, but the appointed days may be different for different authorities—

The hon. Members does not understand the elements of the situation. The Acts remain in force until the Act which repeals them comes into force. There is no interval during which those Acts disappear.

I am emphasising the point put by my right hon. Friend. If I emphasise it sufficiently it will come to the intelligence of hon. Members opposite who listen to me. My hon. Friend was saying that under this new Bill you are going to have different appointed days for different provisions, for different areas or parts of areas, for different persons, or classes of persons—

That was a particular Act for a particular purpose. This is a Consolidation Act, consolidating all the Acts and applying all the provisions of all—

Let me point this out. Small sections of the Act come in appointed days; the other part goes on automatically.

The hon. Member who has interrupted me cannot get past the words of the Bill. He may interpret them as he sees fit. I am going on what appears in the Bill, and I do submit that a Bill of this importance is not a Bill which should be proposed for a Second Reading in the House to-night.

Under Clause 173 it is possible further to delay the bringing into operation of various parts of the 1918 Act beyond the time specified in the Act as it at present exists. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Certain parts only and for certain areas only.

Clause 173 is taken literally from the provisions of the Act of 1918. It does not involve any change in the law whatever. It only contemplates that the provisions of Clause 10 of the Act of 1918 will be understood more thoroughly and more clearly under the operations of consolidation than under the Act of 1918. The law is exactly the same.

Does not this Clause allow you to bring in parts of the 1918 Act and not other parts? It seems to me that is the interpretation of the Bill open to some hon. Members, and the right hon. Gentleman must not be surprised if, after the way in which the operation of this Act has been delayed, time and time again, that we are a little bit suspicious of what we are really asked to do. There has been great disappointment in the country among educationalists at the delay of the right hon. Gentleman in not expediting the provisions of the 1918 Act for secondary and continuation classes. Certain classes who have had a superior education themselves are very hesitating, I know, in allowing those facilities to be granted to other people, but I do submit that the House wants to be satisfied on this point before we give a Second Reading to this Bill. The House has to remember that this is only the second time, in the course of this Parliament, that educational matters have had an opportunity of being discussed, and now that it is 1.20 in the morning there is good ground for com- plaint against the way in which educational matters have been treated by the right hon. Gentleman. We expected rather more in matters of education, and there should be nothing in this Act, and particularly in Clause 173, Sub-section (3), which would enable the Minister further to delay the bringing into operation of the 1918 Act, beyond that which exists at present.

I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. I have already given it. I suppose what I say three times is true, but I will say it again. There is no new law in this Bill.

This Bill consolidates the Act of 1918. Now it is frequently alleged that the Act of 1918 was rushed through without adequate discussion by Members of this House. Had that Bill been presented to the House again it would not have passed in the form in which it is now on the Statute Book. If this House passes those parts of the 1918 Act which are embodied in this Bill, this House will have confirmed the objectionable features of the 1918 Act which are already on the Statute Book. I do not want to keep the House at this late hour, but I do want to say that it is quite as bad to bring this question before the House in the manner which is now being done in this Bill as it was to rush the 1918 Act through the old Parliament in 1918. I do appeal to Ministers and the Front Bench not to proceed with the Second Reading tonight, but to give the House an opportunity to consider these points in order that the House may be fully aware of the provisions of the Bill, which it is now asked to confirm under what appears to be merely camouflage. I wish to emphasise that I do not think that is treating the House with respect. The House ought not to be expected to pass the Second Reading of a Bill of 173 Clauses, containing a great deal of contentious matter, at this time of the day, without adequate warning and without adequate discussion. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]

I had no intention of taking part in this discussion, but the interruption has demonstrated con- clusively that there are some hon. Members present who know nothing about the Bill. I hope my hon. Friend will not persist in opposing the Second Reading of this Bill. He has made the valid point that a great deal of the Act of 1918 was carried without adequate discussion in the dying days of a Parliament. The same comment can be made on this Bill to-night. But Amendments cannot be moved to a Consolidating Act, as I understand it, and so Amendments cannot be moved to the Act of 1918 on this occasion. It is not, however, possible for a Consolidation Act to propose to amend the law, and, therefore, the Amendment desired by my hon. and gallant Friend cannot be moved. I agree with a great deal which has been said, and Members have been led to be suspicious about Bills of this character. Clauses are introduced fixing different days for different Sections coming into operation, and it is only right that Members should be able to scrutinise them closely, and it is not easy to do that in a Bill of this magnitude. What I specially desire to point out to the House is this, that the Minister for Education tells us that this Bill has been on the stocks for about 16 years; that actually a year ago the Bill was ready, and that it was sent out and circulated all over the country, and anyone who was interested in the Bill was invited to make representations. The only people who never saw the Bill were the Members of the House of Commons. This Bill, which was born 16 years ago, is only presented in the last week of the Session. I suggest that that is not the way in which legislation should be promoted. If this Bill was ready a year ago there is no excuse for keeping it back to the last week of the Session. The hon. Member was perfectly entitled to enter his protest with regard to the delay in proceeding with this Bill, but, having made his protest, and as Amendments cannot be moved, I hope my hon. Friend will allow the Minister to get the Second Reading to-night, and if there are details to be discussed in Committee there will be opportunity then.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ Colonel Leslie Wilson. ]

Juries (Emergency Provisions) (Renewal) Bill [Lords]

Order for Second Beading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

This is a very small two-Clause Bill, extending for a year provisions found to be necessary with, regard to juries. A large number of cities and towns which had their own jury list and their own separate Assizes, have been accustomed, instead of obeying the provisions of the Act of 1825, to use the Burgess Roll as the jury list. It was a method which acted admirably and saved a great deal of money. For many years it was adopted. It was then put to the Law Officers by interested persons, and they advised that this method was not a legal method. Therefore, last year, a Bill was brought in which legalised the work done by juries summoned under the method adopted, and legalised that method for one year in the hope that in this Session of Parliament we might have been able to bring in a Measure to deal with juries generally. There are several directions in which our methods of summoning and using juries require to be considered, and, probably, amended, by this House. With the intention of bringing in such a general Measure, the Act legalised such juries for one year only. It has not been possible to bring in a general Measure this year, and, unless we extend for another year the Act of last year, a great deal of unnecessary expense will be caused to a large number of cities and towns. In order to save them that unnecessary expense and trouble, I ask the House to extend this for one more year. The Bill enables cities and towns with their own Assizes and Quarter Sessions to use the Burgess Roll for the Jury List, instead of providing a separate list, in accordance with the Act of 1825. It is a method which has been adopted for many years. It has been perfectly satisfactory, it saves a great deal of expense, and I am only extending this provision for one year in the hope that next year the whole question of juries may be considered by this House.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ Colonel Leslie Wilson. ]

Emergency Powers Act, 1920

Order for consideration of His Majesty's Message [ 2nd May ] read, and discharged.

Reserve Forces (Motion for an Address)

Order for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [ 11th April ] read, and discharged.

Electricity (Supply) Bill

Order for Second Reading read, and discharged; Bill withdrawn.

Clinical Thermometers Bill

Order for Second Reading read, and discharged; Bill withdrawn.

Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (No. 2) Bill

Order for Second Reading read, and discharged; Bill withdrawn.

Gas Regulation Act, 1920

Resolved,

"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Glastonbury Corporation, which was presented on the 25th July [Cmd. 1420] be approved."

Resolved,

"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Harpenden District Gas Company, which was presented on the 14th June [Cmd. 1364], be approved subject to the following Amendments:—

Resolved,

"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Havant Gas Company, which was presented on the 21st June [Cmd. 1379], be approved."

Resolved,

"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Hindley Urban District Council, which was presented on the 21st June [Cmd. 1378], be approved."

Resolved,

"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Ossett Corporation which was presented on the 13th May [Cmd. 1299], be approved."

Resolved,

"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Pontypool Gas and Water Company, which was presented on the 17th June (Cmd. 1369), be approved."

Resolved,

"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the British Gas Light Company with respect to the Staffordshire Potteries undertaking of that Company, which was presented on the 26th July (Cmd. 1426), be approved."

Resolved,

"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Stoke-on-Trent Corporation, which was presented on the 25th July (Cmd. 1421), be approved."—[ Sir W. Mitchell-Thomson. ]

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of 26th July.

Adjourned at Twenty-six Minutes before Two o'clock a.m.