House of Commons
Thursday, August 18, 1921
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Cardiff Extension) Bill,
Ordered, That so much of the Lords Message [17th August] as communicates a Resolution relative to the Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Cardiff Extension) Bill be now considered.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]
Lords Message considered accordingly.
Resolved, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Resolution.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.
Ordered, That the promoters of the Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Cardiff Extension) Bill have leave to suspend any further proceedings thereon, in order to proceed with the Bill, if they shall think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the Private Bill Office not later than three o'clock on the day prior to the close of the present Session, and that all fees due thereon up to that period be paid:
That such Bill shall be deposited in the Private Bill Office not later than three o'clock on or before the third day on which the House shall sit after the next meeting of Parliament, with a declaration annexed thereto, signed by the agent, stating that the Bill is the same in every respect as the Bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this House in the present Session:
That the proceedings on such Bill shall be pro formâ only in regard to every stage through which the same shall have passed in the present Session, and that no new fees be charged in regard to such stages:
That the Standing Orders by which the proceedings on Bills are regulated shall not apply to such Bill in regard to any of the stages through which the same shall have passed during the present Session.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means.
Ordered, That this Order be a Standing Order of the House.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]
Vatican (British Envoy)
:I have the honour to present a petition to this honourable House from the Scottish Reformation Society, signed by 16,745 British subjects resident in Scotland, praying for the withdrawal of the British Envoy at the Vatican in Rome.
:I beg leave to present a petition from the inhabitants of the County of Gloucester, asking for the withdrawal of the British Envoy from the Vatican. The petition, which is signed by 5,842 electors, protests against the continuance of the Envoy without express Parliamentary sanction.
:I beg leave to present to this House a further petition, signed by over 20,000 persons, praying for the withdrawal of the British Envoy to the Vatican. This brings the number of signatures I have presented close up to 50,000
Trustee Savings Banks
Return ordered, "relating to Trustee Savings Banks for the year ending the 20th day of November, 1920, showing:
(1) In respect of Savings Banks established in England and Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and the Channel Islands, respectively, treated in the aggregate, and for the United Kingdom:
(2) For the United Kingdom:
(3) In detail, for each Savings Bank separately, particulars similar to those required under ( b ), ( c ), ( d ), ( e ), ( f ), ( g ), ( h ), ( j ), ( k ), and ( n ), to be rendered in respect of those banks taken in the aggregate."—[ Sir F. Banbury. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Tuberculosis and Neurasthenia Cases
2 and 3.
asked the Minister of Pensions (1) how many cases of ex-service men suffering from tuberculosis have been dealt with by the Appeals Tribunal during the 12 months ending 1st July, 1921; what is the number of such appeals which have been rejected by the tribunals during that period;
(2) how many cases of ex-service men suffering from neurasthenia have been dealt with by the Appeals Tribunal during the 12 months ending 1st July, 1921; and what is the number of such appeals which have been rejected by the tribunals during that period?
:I have now made further inquiries, and I find that it is not possible to supply this information without very considerable labour and expense, which I am not prepared to authorise.
:Is it not most desirable that people generally should know how the soldiers are being treated, and how these tribunals are doing their work; and in the absence of the details how is it possible to form any opinion?
:All questions with regard to the Court of Appeal are answered by the Attorney-General. To give the details asked for would mean looking up individual cases to the extent of several thousands, and I cannot now authorise that expenditure.
:asked the Minister of Pensions how many ex-service men suffering from tuberculosis are now in sanatoria, without pension or treatment allowance of any kind; and if he is aware that many of these men were, prior to their war service, strong and healthy, and began that service as A1 men?
:I regret that I am unable to give the information asked for in the first part of the question. I would remind my hon. Friend that tuberculosis is a disease which is unhappily prevalent under ordinary civil conditions. The function of the pensions warrant is to compensate for disability due to war service only. If, however, a claim to pension is rejected on the ground that the disability is not of this character, the claimant has a right of appeal to an independent tribunal.
:What is the nature of the independent tribunal to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred? Is it the Lords Tribunal?
:It is an independent tribunal created by a Statute of this House, over which the Minister of Pensions has no jurisdiction whatever.
:Is it the Lords Appeal Tribunal?
:Certainly.
:It is like sending the men to a sentence of death. They are turning down cases wholesale.
:I gave the hon. Member an answer to his question, and it is not for me to defend the appeal tribunal of the House of Lords, or the system under which they do their business. No less than 52 per cent. of the cases heard were unchanged, and 61 yer cent, were increased.
:Is there any representative of that appeal tribunal in this House?
:There is no direct representative in this House so far as I know, but the Attorney-General answers questions relating to the appeal tribunal.
:How can there be 52 per cent. unchanged, and 61 per cent. increased? How do the Lords do that?
:If the right hon. Gentleman can give the figures as to the percentages, how is it that he cannot answer the very simple question which I have put to him?
:The Attorney-General answers these questions.
District Pension Offices
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that, in consequence of the probability of the War Pensions Bill shortly becoming law, many ex-service men are being discharged from the district pension offices; that an ex-service pensioner, named Williams, who lost a leg in the War, has received notice to leave the pension office at Matlock on the 27th August, though several of the officials at the central pension office, Derby, are men of military age who have done no Army service, one of whom is to be sent to take the place of Williams in the office at Matlock; and whether he will take such steps as will ensure Williams's services being retained?
:I am having inquiries made, and will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as possible.
Assessments
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware of the many thousands of pensioners whose pensions have been reduced during the present year as a result of special examinations by medical boards; whether any special instructions have been given to medical boards that in the interests of economy examinations should be much more severe than hitherto; and whether he will take such steps as are necessary to bring to the notice of each pensioner the exact method by which he can appeal against the decision of the medical board which reduces or discontinues his pension.
:As I have repeatedly stated, no instructions in the direction suggested by my hon. Friend have been issued by my Department, and this fact was confirmed most explicitly by the Departmental Committee of Inquiry, whose report has recently been published. The fact that during the past twelve months the percentage of cases in which the assessment was unchanged or increased has risen from 52·5 to 61·8, is alone sufficient to refute the suggestion that any such instructions could have been issued. Pensioners are, I am satisfied, fully aware of their rights of appeal and exercise them; and I do not consider that any special steps, such as are suggested in the last part of the question, are called for.
:Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of issuing a special leaflet to these men when their examination has been concluded by the medical board, stating whether it has been decided to continue or discontinue the pensions?
:I think that such a leaflet has in many cases been issued. My experience is that every pensioner generally knows his rights, but I will look further into the matter.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that my question is based upon what happens in hundreds of cases?
Government Staffs and Offices
Ministry of Pensions
asked the Minister of Pensions what buildings will be available for other purposes, and in what localities, when the pesions staff is removed to Acton; and when it is expected that the latter building will fee completed and the requisite staff transferred?
:The greater part of the Acton buildings will be required, in order to release for demolition, the Cumberland Gate and Chester Gate Huts, Regent's Park. The utilisation of the remainder is under consideration, and it is hoped to make use of it, in order to vacate expensive rented accommodation in the Westminster area. Portions of the Acton buildings have already been completed, and are gradually being brought into use. The buildings are expected to be finally completed in March, 1922, and they will be occupied immediately they are ready.
:Will there be a considerable s'aving by the removal of this large staff?
:Undoubtedly.
:Has the Pensions Ministry staff got into this building at Acton? Are the buildings which they now occupy in various parts of London being vacated as the staff get into the offices at Acton?
:Yes.
Investigation Committees (Reports)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the reason for the delay in publishing the reports of the various committees appointed last year to inquire into the staffing of the Government Departments, and the name of the Ministry the Report on which the Government do not propose to publish?
:Three of these reports were published in December last. Preparations were being made in March for the publication of the remaining reports, but the Ministerial changes which took place at that time necessitated a further reference to the new Ministers who were appointed to the Departments concerned. I regret that this should have caused some delay in the publication of the reports. It is not proposed to publish the report on the Ministry of Munitions, in view of the fact that the Ministry has ceased to exist.
:Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the report on the Ministry of Munitions is favourable or unfavourable to the Government?
:That has certainly nothing to do with the question as to the determination whether to publish or not to publish, but I should have thought that in the interests of economy my hon. Friend would wish to save any printing which was unnecessary.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that according to a report published this morning the-re are over 2,000 more Government officials than there were in May?
:That does not arise on this question.
Ministry of Transport
asked the Minister of Transport whether about 28 temporary clerks on the staff for general service have been added this year to the permanent staff.
:No, sir; none of the temporary clerks of the Ministry has been added to the permanent staff this year. In the interests of economy, it was found possible to keep the temporary male clerks employed last year within a maximum number of 74, though 99 were provided for in the Estimates for that year, and consequently only 74 are included in this year's Estimates.
:Is it a fact that there are 28 additional assistant clerks this year, and were those appointments sanctioned by the Chairman of the Business Committee?
:There were, as the hon. Member says, certain additions to the assistant clerks who are members of the Civil Service. There was a great mass of additional work thrown upon the Ministry in connection with the preparation of the Railways Bill, and it must not be taken that those assistant clerks are permanent additions to the staff. Reductions have already been made.
Food Department
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that, out of 1,183 members of the staff employed in the Food Department, no less than 260 appertain to the establishment division at a cost of nearly £50,000 per annum; and whether, in view of the routine nature of the work performed, he will undertake to personally investigate the staffing and work of the division and consider an immediate reduction by 50 per cent.?
:I am satisfied that the staff of the Establishment Division of the Food Department is being progressively reduced at as rapid a rate as is consistent with the carrying out of essential services, and I may instance the fact that the annual rate of £50,000 quoted by my hon. and gallant Friend has already been reduced to £44,000, and by the end of this month will be further reduced to £41,000.
asked the President of the Board of Trade why, out of a staff of employés in receipt of salaries ranging from £250 to £700 per annum in the Establishment Division of the Board of Trade Food Department, there are only two ex-service men employed; and whether, in view of the routine nature of the duties performed in this section, he will issue immediate instructions that all the non-service staff shall be substituted by ex-officers and men of His Majesty's forces, and at the same time have a review made of the salaries paid in each case, with a view to reducing them to a figure more in proportion to the value of the work performed, having regard to the salaries paid for the more important work of liquidation?
:The retention of the officials to whom my hon. and gallant Friend refers is in accordance with the recommendations of the Departmental Substitution Committee of the Ministry of Food, appointed under the terms of the Lytton Report. It has been the consistent policy of the Department to substitute ex-service men in every case where this can be effected without detriment to the public service. I am satisfied that the salaries have been settled strictly in proportion to the responsibilities of the work performed.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the clerks draws £400 or £500 a year, that his only duty is to register typewriters, and that he is drawing more money than clerks who are responsible in the Liquidation Department for dealing with millions of money per annum?
:I should be very surprised if that were a fact.
:If it is true that there are only two ex-service men employed, and if Substitution Committees have really been set up in accordance with the Lytton Committee's recommendations, how can that state of affairs be possible?
:The hon. Member must realise that this is a temporary staff, which is gradually in process of disappearance, and the four non-service members of the staff, including the number given to-day, are under notice, and they are purely temporary officers.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in spite of the undertaking of the Treasury that they would carry out the spirit of the Report of Lord Lytton's Committee, this kind of complaint is continuous?
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the whole of the Regulations made by the late Minister of Food were made under the Defence of the Realm Act, and seeing that those Regulations cease on the 1st September with the termination of the War, will he see that the whole of the staff connected with this Department is dismissed?
Admiralty
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty, in view of the fact that it is officially stated that no charge is contemplated in the position of the permanent Secretary of the Admiralty in regard to the Board, whether the Board will give an assurance that no Order in Council will be made affecting the position of the permanent Secretary until Parliament has reassembled and has the power of questioning such an Order in Council?
:I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to my replies to his previous questions on this subject. No Order in Council inconsistent with these replies is in contemplation. I cannot, however, give the assurance asked for, which would amount to an undesirable constitutional innovation.
:Is the hon Gentleman aware that I have never had a direct answer to this question, and that the Navy and the Sea Lords are genuinely alarmed at the prospect of a change by which a servant of the Admiralty becomes a member of the Board?
:I do not think my hon. and gallant Friend is entitled to speak on behalf of any members of the Board of Admiralty.
:Is it within the hon. Gentleman's knowledge that there is a Cabinet Order which says that this change is to be made?
:No change in the constitution of the Board of Admiralty is in contemplation.
:Is there a Cabinet Order that this change is to be made?
:I believe there was a Cabinet Order some time ago, but it does not affect the position of the Admiralty.
Civil Service Examinations
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he can state the number of persons admitted into the Civil Service in consequence of their success in examinations set by the Commissioners during the past 12 months; and whether he can say how such figures compare with a similar pre-War period?
:A great deal of labour would be required to give the information desired for periods of 12 months other than calendar years. The total number of persons in whose favour certificates of qualification for appointment to the Civil Service was issued in 1920 (1st January to 31st December) was 24,764. In addition, Special Recommendations were issued in favour of 884 disabled ex-service men under the Order in Council of the 22nd March, 1918. The number of persons certificated in 1913 was 17,819; in 1914 is was 18,424. Each of these totals includes persons who for one reason or another were appointed without educational examination.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the number of candidates who qualified in the Civil Ser- vice examinations held in November, December, and March last, and the number who have received appointments?
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how many temporary clerks in the service, who competed in 1920 for permanent clerkships, satisfied the qualifying standard and became listed for employment; how many of these have been placed, how many remain to be placed, and when they may expect to be placed; whether some temporary clerks who did not qualify have been retained in the service while others who did qualify have been dismissed; and whether he is aware of the difficulty experienced by the latter in carrying on while waiting for the employment promised them?
:The number of qualified candidates at the examination for men clerical officers held in November and December, 1920, and in March, 1921, was 4,093, of whom 425 have been appointed to permanent posts. It is hoped that the remaining qualified ex-service candidates will be offered posts by the end of this year. At the women's competition the number of qualified candidates was 1,662, of whom 354 have been appointed to permanent posts. The appointment of further numbers of the qualified women candidates must depend, under the terms of the Report of Lord Lytton's Committee, upon the rate of appointment of the ex-service men candidates. In regulating discharges of temporary personnel prior to the declaration of the results of the recent limited examinations, it was of course impossible to forecast what those results would be, but priority of retention was, as far as possible, accorded to all who had sat for the examinations.
Aliens as Charwomen
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether any aliens are at present employed in Government offices; and, if so, whether he can give the number?
:Aliens are debarred from employment in the permanent Civil Service. Employment in an unestablished and subordinate position, such as that of charwomen, is not absolutely prohibited, but cases of such employment, if any, are extremely few.
:Do I understand that aliens are employed at this moment while thousands of ex-service men are out of work?
:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that under the Aliens Act passed two years ago the employment of any alien in any capacity in the Civil Service is prohibited?
:I have already stated, in reply to the question, that I am not aware of any such case, but as regards short temporary employment it is impossible to say at any given moment that there are no such cases in existence. As to such cases where the employment may be of a charwoman only for a week it is not worth while to make a calculation.
:In view of the fact that the end of the War found hundreds of aliens employed in various Government Departments, is it not satisfactory that these have all now been discharged, and that there are no more aliens in Government employment?
:What calculation is necessary to ascertain whether a woman is an alien or not?
:What period of time in the employment of the Government is covered by the word "temporary"?
:I could not fix a definite limit. It varies from one period to another.
:Will the hon. Gentleman take steps now to see that no alien is continued in the employment of any Government Department as long as the Labour bureaus can supply woman labour of our own nationality?
Ireland
Sinn Fein Executions
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that orders issued by general headquarters, Irish republican army, captured by the Military, definitely stated that executions could only be carried out on the written order of the local brigade commandant; whether he is aware that the brigade commandant for the area in which Mrs. Lindsay was kidnapped is John Hegarty, of Douglas Road, Cork, who was for some time storeman at the Cork union workhouse, and therefore a paid servant of the Local Government Board; and whether he can state whether this person is now drawing Government pay, and is therefore a servant of the Government?
:Orders signed by the Adjutant-General, Irish Republican Army, on the 20th April, 1921, stated that a convicted spy "shall not be executed until his conviction and sentence have been ratified by the Brigade Commander concerned," and that " all cases of execution of spies shall be notified at once to the Adjutant-General." The reply to the second part of the question is in the affirmative, but this man has been on the run for nearly twelve months, and about three months ago another storeman was appointed in his place.
:Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that all Government officials who are known to be rebels and disloyal will be dismissed immediately the truce ends?
:That is entirely a different question, which I am not now prepared to answer.
Munitions (Messrs. Craig's Claim)
asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that in January, 1919, certain munitions were taken over by the Royal Irish Constabulary from Messrs. Craig's Engineering Works, Londonderry; that on 24th June, 1919, Messrs. Craig were informed by the Ministry of Munitions that their claim would be passed at a very early date; that on 7th November, 1919, Messrs. Craig were referred to the War Office; that on 24th November, 1919, the Ministry of Munitions were unable to trace Messrs. Craig's claim at all, and referred them to the War Office; that by the 5th February, 1920, the War Office had referred the claim to the General Officer Commanding, Ireland, with a request that action be taken as early as possible; that on 12th February, 1920, general headquarters, Ireland, were making every endeavour to arrive at an early settlement; and that by 24th March, 1920, they had referred the claim to the Irish Government, to whom they sent a hastener on the 7th May, 1920, with the result that by 22nd April, 1921, the matter was referred back to the War Office who, on the 21st May, 1921, informed the claimants that their claim had again been referred from the War Office to the Irish Office for settlement (reference 2/9,473 O. S.), since when nothing has been received by Messrs. Craig; and when will these interchanges cease and Messrs. Craig be paid?
:I regret that the decision of this case has been so long delayed, and have taken steps to secure that an early decision shall be reached.
:What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by an early decision? Cannot he inform the House when it will be made?
:At the. earliest possible opportunity.
Royal Irish Constabulary (Compensation for Injuries)
asked the Chief Secretary what provision is now made by way of pension or compensation to men of the Irish police force who were wounded or injured in the discharge of their duties during the Irish rebellion of 1916 and to the dependants of the men who were killed in that rebellion; whether any compensation can be obtained in such cases under the Malicious Injuries Act of 1919 and any increases of pension can be granted under the Increases of Pensions Act, 1920; and whether provision will be made for such cases in the Regulations made by the Irish Government consequent on the passing of the Police Pensions Act?
:Extra-statutory pensions were awarded to members of the Irish police forces injured in the rebellion of 1916, and to the dependants of members killed. No compensation could be awarded in these cases under the Criminal Injuries Act of 1919. The statutory part of the pensions awarded is increased so far as the provisions of the Pensions (Increase) Act permit. The Pensions Order to be made by the Irish Government will not apply to pensioners who retired before the 1st April, 1919.
:Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the latter part of the question, whether provision will be made for these men in the Regulations which are now to be issued by the Irish Government?
:I cannot answer that part of the question, as the Regulations are not yet completed.
:Do I understand that the Regulations will make provision for increasing the pensions of or compensation to members of the force injured in the course of their duty?
:In drawing up the Regulations that matter will be fully considered.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is at the present time sitting at the Royal Irish Constabulary headquarters in Dublin a body representing fully 12,000 men who are wishing to be disbanded on the Appointed Day? Will they be disbanded?
:The hon. Member had better put that question on the Paper.
:This is a matter of very great urgency. Cannot an answer be given?
:I observed that the hon. Member was here yesterday. He could have put down the question.
:I never received it myself until this morning.
Questions
South Persia Rifles
asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the disbandment of the South Persia Rifles has now been decided upon owing to the refusal of the Persian Government to take the force over; and, if so, can he state what is to become of the guns, rifles, stores, equipment, horses, and mules supplied by the Indian Government, and what compensation is to be paid by Persia to the Government of India for the cost of these and for the expense incurred in maintaining peace and security in Southern Persia all this time?
:The dissolution of the South Persia Rifles is already in progress and about one-third of the force has been disbanded. Negotiations, however, are being carried on with the Persian Government both with a view to maintaining some part of the force in being and on the points mentioned in the second part of the hon. and gallant Member's question.
:Is the disbandment being carried out peacefully, or by the men going off with their rifles?
:I cannot answer that at the moment.
:If part of the force is retained, will the Persian Government be asked to pay some part of the cost? Although the force was created without their consent, if part of it is kept should they not be asked to pay?
:I think that will be so.
Azerbaijan (British Nationals' Claims)
asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether this country owes considerable sums to the republic of Azerbaijan in respect of the transport and provisioning of troops and other matters; what is the total amount of such indebtedness; and will is Majesty's Government take steps to earmark such moneys as a fund to provide in some measure for the just claims of British nationals whose properties at Baku have been confiscated.
:This country owed to the late Government of Azerbaijan certain sums in respect of transactions which took place during the occupation of parts of the Caucasus by British troops, after the Armistice with Turkey. The amount at present ascertained is £450,017, but the exact amount cannot be stated pending the results of the examination of the accounts of the local military authorities which is at present taking place. The question of the method in which these amounts shall be accounted for has not been finally determined pending the final determination of the future status of Azerbaijan. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
:There being a, legitimate claim, will it not be possible for the Government to safeguard the interests of British Nationals who have lost their property?
:Whatever action may be taken to safeguard the interests of British nationals, I am afraid it cannot be done in this way.
Russia
British Subjects (Maltreatment)
asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, before the House rises, he can give an assurance that His Majesty's Government will do all possible to expedite the reparation which his Department has admitted is owing to Mrs. Stan Harding for the treatment she received in Russia, and so insist upon justice being meted out to British citizens who have suffered gross maltreatment under a foreign flag?
:The British official agent in Moscow is being instructed to make strong representations to the Soviet Government on the matter.
Famine Relief
asked the Prime Minister whether, in providing relief for the victims of the Russian famine, he will consider the desirability of ameliorating the present depressed condition of the Scottish fishing population by providing for the export of cured herrings as part of the British contribution to such relief?
:In the event of arrangements being made for the dispatch of foodstuffs to Russia, this suggestion will be considered.
Questions
British Trade Commissioners
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether the Trade Commissioners appointed to represent this country abroad have been directed to make their reports through the Foreign Office?
:The Trade Commissioners throughout the British Empire make all their reports direct to the Department of Overseas Trade. The commercial diplomatic officers in foreign countries make their reports direct to the Department except when such reports have a substantial political interest. In the latter case they are made to the Foreign Office through the head of the diplomatic mission concerned.
Transport
London Omnibuses and Tramcars (Excess Passengers)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he can state approximately the number of standing passengers carried by omnibuses and tramcars during the three months ending 31st December last, and the three months ending 30th June last?
:I regret that I have no information as to the number of excess passengers which have been carried, and could give no approximate figures.
:May I ask how the Commissioner of Police can possibly be aware that the omnibus and tramway companies will be able to provide sufficient accommodation for these passengers on the 1st October, if the numbers are not known?
:I do not see how that point arises.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it will be impossible for these people to travel by District trains, which, in the crush hours, are more than crowded already?
:What is the reason for making this Order?
:This is a matter of importance, and as the House is going to rise in a few days, is it not necessary—
:I observe that the next question on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member is on the same point. Will he put that?
asked the Home Secretary whether the Chief Commissioner of Police, before issuing instruc- tions that the present practice, under which passengers are allowed to stand inside tramcars and omnibuses, was to stop at an early date, consulted the various tramway and omnibus undertakings in the Metropolitan area; whether arrangements have been made by many "of these undertakings to supplement their present fleets in order to better cope with the existing traffic requirements, and to enable them to carry the public without the need for standing; what are the numbers of new motor omnibuses and tramcars which the London GeneralOmnibus Company and the London County Council, respectively, have either in course of manufacture or on order, and what proportion of these additional vehicles will be available before 1st October, the date when the prohibition as to standing inside vehicles is to come into force; what steps were taken by the Chief Commissioner to satisfy himself that sufficient tramcars and omnibuses will be available to meet the requirements of the public, having regard to the daily scenes of overcrowding which take place at certain hours at important traffic points in the City and West End, and bearing in mind further that during the cold weather and wet winter months that are coming on the need for inside accommodation will be much greater than is the case at the present time; and whether he will arrange for an inquiry into the matter, and for the different traffic authorities to be fully consulted, before a decision is enforced which is likely under existing conditions to cause great hardship, especially amongst women and girl workers?
asked the Home Secretary if he is aware that, even if 25 per cent. more tramcars were placed upon the roads between now and 1st October, it would be quite impossible for the tramcars to carry all the passengers going to work early in the morning and travelling home after working hours; and if he will reconsider the question of putting into force on 1st October the decision announced by him?
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Chief Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police proposes to withdraw the present facilities whereby passengers are allowed to stand inside omnibuses and tramcars on the 1st of October; whether the effect of such action must be to enormously increase the queue at all stopping places during such hours, and also to necessitate a very large increase in the number of tramcars and omnibuses at certain periods and in certain localities; whether he is aware that the Ministry of Transport has not been consulted; whether he can give directions for the matter to be further considered by both the Home Office and the Ministry of Transport before the Chief Comissioner puts his proposal into effect, which can only cause many hundreds of thousands of workmen to lose many millions of hours of leisure, and inflict the maximum of hardship upon them?
:The decision of the Commissioner of Police is not a new regulation made by him, but is merely an intimation that, after 1st October, he will have to enforce provisions which have been laid down by Parliament. By Act of Parliament it is a criminal offence, for which both driver and conductor are liable to penalties if- any excess passengers be carried in omnibuses and, subject to limited exceptions, in tramcars. During the War the Commissioner decided, in the public interest, not to enforce the provisions.
The tramcar and omnibus authorities knew that this concession was a wartime measure, and could not. be continued indefinitely, and the Commissioner did not consider that he was justified in continuing it after the 1st October. They have now requested the Commissioner to receive their representatives before it is definitely decided to enforce the law, and he will be happy to do so. If, after consideration of all the facts, a postponement of date be found to be necessary, it will be made.
The primary object of the Commissioner is to see that the general public are not subjected to the danger and inconvenience of overcrowding, if that can possibly be avoided; but he realises that the public would rather have overcrowding than inadequate facilities of transport, and his decision will be influenced by that knowledge.
:May I ask whether, considering that the House will be rising in a very few days, when we shall have no opportunity of discussing the matter, the right hon. Gentleman will give a promise here and now that the Order shall not be put into operation until there is better weather—in the spring—taking into consideration the large number of people who will be adversely affected? Will the right hon. Gentleman be kind enough to reply to that part of my question, where I ask for the numbers of new omnibuses and tramcars which the General Omnibus Company and the London County Council respectively are constructing, seeing that he has stated there will be plenty of accommodation available by the 1st October?
:Why, since the passengers are complacent and the companies are capable, will the right hon. Gentleman not try letting them alone?
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware it was stated in the House the other day that this was not a traffic problem, and that the Minister of Transport had not been consulted? May I ask whether, in view of the fact that an extra number of omnibuses and trams will have to be employed to carry the passengers, it will not increase the traffic congestion, and thus become a traffic problem? Has the Commissioner of Police consulted the Minister of Transport to find out his views as to the advisability of putting the Order into operation?
:I must ask for notice of that question.
:On a point of Order. Owing to the reticence of the right hon. Gentleman, I give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Motion for Adjournment to-morrow.
:May I have an answer to my question?
:The hon. Member's question was not relevant to the one on the Paper.
Rates Advisory Committee
asked the Minister of Transport whether an economy can now be effected in the salary (£5,000) of the Chairman of the Bates Advisory Committee?
:The Rates Advisory Committee have still important work to finish in connection with the classification of merchandise, and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport is unable to recommend any reduction in the salary of the learned Chairman. I may add, how- ever, that if he consents to accept the Presidency of the Bates Tribunal no additional salary will be paid during the period in which both the committee and tribunal are in existence.
Speed of Vehicles
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is now able to communicate to the House the Report of the Departmental Committee on Speeds of all Vehicles on the Public Highways; and, if not, whether, in view of the urgent necessity of revision of the existing regulations, he will expedite the conclusion of the Committee's labours?
:The Departmental Committee have not yet prepared their report on this matter, but I am informed that they hope to be in a position to do so early in the autumn.
Questions
Egypt (Prince Aziz Hassan)
asked the Prime Minister whether Prince Aziz Hassan has been refused permission to come to this country; if so, why; and whether this restriction can be immediately removed?
:Both the Egyptian Government and Lord Allenby considered that the admission of Prince, Aziz Hassan to this country would be most inadvisable. I see no reason to dissent from their view.
Heligoland
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether, as the result of Prussian exactions and oppression, the native inhabitants of Heligoland have issued a memorandum asking that the island may be granted self-government; and whether, in view of the obligations of this country to the Heligolanders under the treaty by which the island was ceded to Germany, and the fact that in a number of respects Germany has failed to carry out the terms' of the treaty, the Government will endeavour to arrange for the reference of the question of the future status of the island to the League of Nations, so that the principle of self-determination which has governed the Cabinet's policy in other cases may be given effect to.
:I have no knowledge of the memorandum in question. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer given by me to the hon. Member for Wirrall (Mr. Stewart) on 8th August.
Opium Cultivation (Restriction)
asked the Lord President of the Council whether the League of Nations is now charged with the duty of deciding how much opium is to be grown in the world and how much is required for medicinal purposes and of preventing the cultivation of the poppy to any greater extent than will suffice to satisfy this need; and, if the answer be in the affirmative, can he say how the League proposes to enforce its decrees in foreign countries such as China and Persia?
:I have been asked to reply to this question. Article 23 of the Treaty of Peace entrusts the League with the general supervision over the execution of the International Opium Convention of 1912 and any Conventions on the same subject which may hereafter be concluded. One provision of the existing Convention requires the signatories to enact effective laws or regulations for the control of the production and distribution of opium, but it does not rest with the League to decide how much opium is to be grown. The last part of the question, therefore, does not arise.
:Would not this little effort, in addition to the very great matters which have lately been referred to the League, prove too much for that body in its youth?
:I think not.
Members of Parliament (Tribute at Death)
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will confer with Mr. Speaker as to the possibility of devising means of affording the House an opportunity of taking official notice of the death of a colleague and paying a mark of respect to his memory?
:I have carefully considered this question, and have had an opportunity of conferring with Mr. Speaker on the subject. The present practice of the House in these matters is guided by custom and precedent. It is true that our established practice does not always afford an opportunity for expression within the House of the feelings which we entertain for a colleague who has passed away, but I venture to think that our predecessors acted wisely, and that it would be a mistake to regulate our procedure by any formal rules.
:Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that there is some incongruity in the fact that while, if a Member of this House happen to die within the precincts, we at once adjourn as a mark of respect to his memory, yet, if he die outside the precincts, however distinguished he may be, we go on with our business just the same?
:In dealing with a great historic institution like this House, precedent, I think, has great weight, and really guides, if I may say so, the expression of our feelings, though it does not control them. I think it would be very difficult to frame any rule which would really be applicable to all circumstances, and that the formality of a rule would detract immensely from the testimony which we now pay to a colleague whose memory we desire to honour, whether it be upon the Floor of this House or whether it be in such ways as are open to us in the Commons House of Parliament or elsewhere.
Customs Cruiser "Vigilant."
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can give any particulars with regard to the cruiser "Vigilant," His Majesty's Customs and Excise; on what duties she is employed; how much she originally cost; what is the annual cost of upkeep; and upon what Vote is the charge shown?
:The "Vigilant" is the only Customs Revenue vessel established on a seagoing basis. She is utilised for watching, boarding and searching vessels for contraband in the estuarial waters of the Thames, and for making visits of inspection round the coast. The present vessel was formerly the Admiralty surveying trawler "Esther," and was transferred from the Admiralty in 1919, at a nominal charge of £6,500, to replace a worn-out vessel of the same name. The cost of upkeep, including fuel, stores, and repairs, for the year 1920–21 was £2,800, and the charge is shown on the Customs and Excise Vote.
:Do not the Admiralty employ coastguard cruisers for watching purposes to perform the same duties, and is it not the fact that, the week-end before last, the " Vigilant '' attended a local regatta at, I think, Holyhead, and is practically a yacht for the benefit of certain officials of the Customs and Excise?
:I am certain that the suggestion contained in the last part of the Noble Lord's supplementary question is quite unjustified. With regard to the former part, those are details which I think the Noble Lord might put upon the Paper.
:Will not this vessel have plenty of work to do in connection with the anti-dumping regulations?
:With reference to that part of the answer which relates to the visiting of Customs stations, is there any reason why Customs inspectors should not go by train at a much less cost, instead of apeing the Admiralty by taking a yacht round?
:That question assumes that there is unwarranted expense. I have told the House what the expense is, and the figure in itself shows that there cannot be any undue use of the vessel in the way that the hon. and gallant Member suggests.
Universities (Exchequer Grants)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total amounts of Exchequer grants to universities in England and Wales for the years 1890, 1900, 1910, and 1920, respectively?
:In the financial year 1890–91 the Exchequer grant was £28,500; in 1900–01, £42,000; in 1910–11, £154,250; in 1919–20, £742,000, of which £510,500 was described as recurrent, and £231,500 as non-recurrent.
Coal Industry
Dispute (Cost)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has been able to form any estimate of the cost of the recent coal dispute to the various Departments, by reason of unemployment pay, on account of the Defence Corps, and by the loss of export trade?
:I would refer to the reply given on the 5th July to the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn). As regards actual expenditure by the Government, it is necessary to add to the figures then given, amounting to £18,855,000, certain items included in the Supplementary Estimates presented to the House in June and July, namely:—
As regards unemployment pay, the amount directly due to the coal dispute cannot be calculated with certainty. On the assumption, however, that if there had been no coal dispute, the level of unemployment from April to July would have been the same as in March, it has been estimated that the amount of unemployment pay distributed showed an increase due to the coal stoppage of £13,000,000.
As regards export trade, it has been estimated that volume during the period of stoppage was less than might have been expected by some £40,000,000 or £50,000,000.
I wish to emphasise that the above figures represent the cumulative effect of many conditions, the most important of which was no doubt the coal stoppage. It would, however, be misleading to ascribe the total effect to that single cause.
Mines, Durham and Northumberland
asked the President of the Board of Trade, if he is aware that a number of collieries in the county of Durham are closing down; whether, in view of the great increase of unemployment that is ensuing, he has taken into consideration the effect upon the cost of production of the operation of sliding scale rents in the cases of royalties; how many collieries in Durham and Northumberland are subject to royalty rents based upon a sliding scale, and what is the maximum rent per ton that is being obtained under these scales in these two counties; whether the sliding scale operates in other parts of the United Kingdom, and, if so, where; what are the maximum rents obtainable under the present high prices; and is he aware that in one case at least it is as high as 6s. 4d. a ton?
:I am aware that owing to lack of trade a few Durham collieries are not working. I have no information as to the effect of sliding-scale royalties upon the cost of production since control ceased; but in Durham, for the quarter ended 31st March, 1921, the average cost of royaltes in those undertakings which had sliding-scale leases was lO¾d. per ton raised as compared with 6½d. in those paying fixed royaties, and 7¾d. for all Durham undertakings. Sliding-scale leases operate in twenty-seven undertakings in Northumberland and Durham, and also to varying degrees in Scotland, South Wales, Notts, and Derby, Lancashire, Staffordshire, Bristol, Somerset and Kent. I have no information as to the rents which are now being obtained under these leases.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the closing of these Durham collieries is owing to the Government sale of American coal?
:I cannot answer that question without further inquiry.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that because of the high rates charged by the North Eastern Railway Company at least one Durham Colliery has closed?
:I cannot say.
Prices, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the price of coal for domestic use in Newcastle-upon-Tyne and district is 55s. a ton, whilst the same brands are being sold for export at 25s. per ton; whether the former price is charged owing to the existence of a coal ring operating between colliery owners and distributors; and, if so, what steps he proposes to take to ensure domestic supplies being charged at no higher price than those for consumption by the foreigner?
:I am aware that prices as quoted by the hon. and gallant Member are being charged in Newcastle, but I have no information as to the respective qualities of the coal sold. As regards the remainder of his question, I would refer him to the answer given to questions upon this subject by the hon. Members for Finchley and Southwark on the 25th July.
Questions
Super-Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount received during the past year from Super-tax and the cost of collection, including rent of buildings, etc., in which the offices are held?
:The Exchequer receipt of Super-tax in 1920–21 was £55,281,000. The total cost of collecting the Inland Revenue Duties in 1920–21 is estimated at £7,550,000, including the sums borne on the Votes of other Departments. The staff of the Department is not allocated to particular taxes, and no accurate apportionment of the expenditure as between them is possible.
:Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much of that Super-tax is collected in Ireland?
Cotton Operatives (Grants)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the grants that were made to the cotton operatives from the Cotton Control Board funds are taxable; and, if so at what rate, i.e., earned or unearned?
:I take it that the hon. Member is referring to the grants made to cotton operatives who were unemployed by reason of the restriction of output under the Cotton (Restriction of Output) Order, 1917. On this assump tion these grants were not, as I understand, regarded as income for Income Tax purposes.
Hampton Court Palace
asked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, why the cost of maintenance and repairs at Hampton Court Palace has increased from £7,020 in 1914 to £25,635 this year?
:Apart from the general rise in cost of labour and materials, the increase is due partly to the fact that provision is made for carrying out urgent maintenance work postponed during the War, and partly to the necessity for reconstructing the drainage of the Palace and repairing the Tudor timber and brickwork. There is also an increase in the cost of producing guide books, the proceeds from the sale of which provide a valuable appropriation-in-aid, amounting for the last financial year to £2,414 as compared with £54 for the year 1913–14.
Hospitals (Income Tax)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider the possibility of arranging that next year subscriptions to hospitals should not be liable to Income Tax, in order that by this means the hospitals of the country may once more be placed on a sound financial basis?
:I regret that I cannot see my way to promise legislative proposals in the direction desired by my hon. and gallant Friend.
Jamaica
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has received a request from the Governor of Jamaica respecting the proposed import duty on bananas and cocoanuts entering the United States; and what action he is taking in the matter?
:No communication on the subject has been received from the Governor of Jamaica.
Palestine
Administration (Report)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received from the British High Commissioner in Palestine a Report on his administration for the past year; and whether this Report will be laid as a White Paper before the end of the Session, or, failing this, whether the Report will be published as soon as received, in view of the many contradictory allegations that are now being made regarding the British administration of Palestine at the present moment?
:A Report from the High Commissioner was received yesterday in the Colonial Office, and will be published as soon as possible. I much regret that time has not permitted of its being laid before the end of this Session.
Elected Representation
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies on what lines it is proposed to introduce the principle of elected representation to a national council or assembly to assist the British Government in Palestine; whether before the British occupation the only persons who had votes were Mohammedan Turkish subjects owning landed property; whether Christians and Jews, as well as the Arab peasants, were disfranchised; and whether the Moslem deputation from Palestine recently received by him desires to continue this limited franchise?
:The whole question is now being discussed by the High Commissioner with representatives of local opinion in Palestine, and is also being considered here. My hon. Friend may rest assured that there is no intention of perpetuating any anomalous or unfair discrimination which may have been made under the Turkish regime. Nothing in what was said to me by the deputation referred to, which included Christians as well as Moslems, led me to believe that they advocated any such discrimination.
:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that under the Turks every man could keep a gun if he wanted, and that this kind of interference with the liberty of the subject renders the British Government in Palestine exceedingly unpopular?
:I do not think guns and votes go together.
Firearms
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any steps have been taken in Palestine to collect the large number of unauthorised firearms still in possession of different sections of the population; and whether the full Report of the inquiry into the armed disturbances at Jaffa will be published as a White Paper?
:I have no doubt that all possible steps are being taken by the police authorities in Palestine to collect firearms in possession of unauthorised persons. As regards the latter part of the question, I would prefer to reserve my judgment until the Report has been received.
Housing
Land Acquisition
asked the Minister of Health what is the total area of land acquired by local authorities for housing purposes, and the total expense incurred in acquisition, showing that expense under the following heads, purchase price; all other costs, including transfer, arbitration, and compulsory acquisition.
:I estimate that the land acquired by local authorities for housing purposes amounts approximately to 27,000 acres, and that the cost is about £4,800,000. I am afraid I have no information available which would enable me to divide this figure under the various heads enumerated by the hon. Member.
Tax Exemption
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that during the period 25th February, when the law exempting new houses from taxation took effect, to 9th July, homes to accommodate 20,897 families and to cost $100,000,000 have been planned in New York city, and that for the same period last year, when new houses were not exempt from taxation, only $37,143,000 were invested in homes providing for 6,604 families; and whether he can now state if he has received any official information concerning the results upon housing progress of the tax exemption law in New York city.
asked the Minister of Health if he is in a position to make any further statement with regard to the question as to whether schemes for the encouragement of housebuilding at present in operation in the United States of America, whereby new houses are exempted from rates for a term of years, could profitably be applied in this country?
:I regret that the inquiries which I am causing to be made into this subject are not yet completed.
:If the right hon. Gentleman finds that the result of this step taken in New York is to increase the number of houses there, will he consider the desirability of taking action in this country?
:It is for that reason that I am awaiting the inquiry.
Acton
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the arbitrator awarded the sum of £33,000 as the purchase price of 58·854 acres compulsorily acquired at Acton Wells by the Acton Urban District Council for the purposes of a housing scheme; and what was the rateable value of that land previous to acquisition or, if it formed part of a larger subject, the amount by which the rateable subject has been reduced owing to severance?
:The answer to the first part of this question is in the affirmative. I am obtaining the information asked for in the last part, and will communicate with the hon. Member in due course.
Local Authorities' Schemes
asked the Minister of Health what was the aggregate rateable value, previous to purchase, of the 27,000 acres acquired for a total sum of £4,800,000 by the local authorities in connection with housing schemes; whether, in view of the statement made in the official journal " Housing," that the area of sites approved up to 28th January, 1921, was 57,516 acres, he can say what, if any, obligation rests upon the local authorities to buy or lease land in addition to the 27,000 acres actually acquired, and in that event what is the acreage, the sum of money involved, and the present rateable value of that additional land?
:I am afraid that the information asked for in the first part of the hon. Member's question is not available. The question whether any local authorities are so far committed in connection with the buying of further land for housing that it will be necessary to complete the purchase will have to be determined as individual cases arise, and I have informed local authorities that they should not incur further commitments in this connection without express sanction.
Isle of Wight
asked the Minister of Health whether he received a letter, dated 2nd July, sent to him by the Isle of Wight. District Committee of the National Union of Agricultural Workers, relating to the condition of the housing for the working classes in the rural districts of the Isle of Wight, and drawing attention to the insufficiency of the inspection, to the non-enforcement of repairing notices, and to certain statements in the annual report of the medical officer of health for the district; whether no reply has been sent to that letter beyond a postcard of acknowledgment; whether a second letter was received, dated 8th August, to which no answer at all has been sent; and whether it is intended to send any replies to those letters and to insist upon the proper execution by the rural district council of the Isle of Wight of the Housing Acts?
:The questions raised in the letters referred to relate to matters which have been the subject of investigation by my Department and of conference with representatives of the local branch of the National Union of Agricultural Workers, and I am considering what steps it is practicable to take within the limits of the general policy recently announced to deal with the situation. I am communicating with the rural district council as to the delay which appears to have occurred in the enforcement of notices to repair and causing a reply to be sent to the National Union of Agricultural Workers.
Questions
Greater London Government
asked the Minister of Health if he can form any estimate of the cost which will be incurred by the Royal Commission on the Local Government of Greater London; and whether, in considering means by which existing inequalities in the distribution of local burdens may be decreased, the. Commission may also have an opportunity of considering the feasibility of imposing further safeguards against reckless and extravagant expenditure by local bodies?
:It is not practicable to form a reliable estimate at the moment, but I do not think the cost should be large. I have no doubt that the Royal Commission will consider the question of financial control as far as it comes within the terms of their reference.
Beagles (Durham County Council)
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the Durham County Council has bought a pack of beagles from a well-known breeder in Leicestershire; whether the purchase is made with the ratepayers' money; and, if so, will he consider the advisability of disallowing the purchase and advise the council to organise paper-chases for the health of the school children?
:I have no information as to this matter, but I will communicate with the county council.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that for many years a pack of beagles has been maintained at Dartmouth Naval College at the taxpayers' expense, and if it be good for cadets, why is it not good for miners' children?
:This is not a question on the merits. It is asking for facts.
National Health Insurance
asked the Minister of Health if he has yet come to a decision as to the appointment of a committee or commission to inquire into the working of the Acts relating to National Health Insurance, as suggested in his statements to the House on 5th July and 3rd August; whether such a committee or commission will be set up and, if so, when; and will he see that approved societies, which have the greatest experience of the administration of the Insurance Acts shall be adequately represented upon such committee or commission?
:As regards the first and second parts of the question, I am not yet in a position to add anything to the answers which I gave to the hon. Member for Lincoln on this subject on the 10th and 15th instant. Before any action be taken, the point raised in the last part of the hon. Member's question will be considered.
River Lea
asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the statement by the medical officer of health for Tottenham, made in the Edmonton County Court, that the condition of the River Lea below Tottenham Lock is prejudicial and inimical to public health; whether he is aware that similar statements have been made by the medical officer for Hackney; that, owing to the excessive amount of sewage impurity now pouring into the river, no fish can live in it; that local rowing clubs are put to serious inconvenience; and that residents generally are subjected to much discomfort and grave risk to health; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter?
:The reports which I have previously received indicated that, though the conditions were open to objection, and had been aggravated by the drought, there was no evidence of any injury to health from the state of the river. I will, however, have further inquiries made.
Leeds and Bradford Boundaries Extension
asked the Minister of health whether, in view of the long interval which has elapsed since the inquiry into the proposed extensions of Leeds and Bradford was held, he is now in a position to announce the decision of the Government in this matter, in view of the inconvenience caused by the uncertainty as to the future existing in the West Riding at this moment?
:I hope to be able to announce the decision in these cases to the local authorities concerned within the next few days.
Union Assessment Committee Acts
asked the Minister of Health if he has received a resolution of the Keynsham Guardians asking that the Union Assessment Committee Acts be amended to provide that before any objector, who has complied with all the conditions precedent which he has to perform, is permitted to appeal to Quarter Sessions on the ground that he has failed to obtain relief from an Assessment Committee he should, upon the request of such Committee, be compelled to furnish evidence in support of his objection; and whether he contemplates proposing such an Amendment to Parliament?
:As I stated yesterday in reply to the hon. Member for Plaistow, this suggestion will be considered in connection with any proposals for amending the law of valuation.
War Risks Compensation Scheme
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the decision of the Board of Trade which took effect from 9th August, 1920, as a result of the Select Committee's Report, extended the scope of the War Risks Compensation Scheme only to an officer or other rank of the mercantile marine who could prove that his health was affected by the strain before his discharge from the last ship in which he passed through the danger zone and that his illness could properly be regarded as due to this strain, and that many officers and other ranks who were apparently fit at the termination of hostilities are only now suffering a breakdown in health as the result of the continuous and exceptional strain; and whether, if it is clearly established on medical evidence that illness is due to this strain, he will include such persons within the scope of the War Risks Compensation Scheme?
:I am aware of the extension of the War Risks Compensation Scheme to which the hon. Member refers, but the extension does not cover the class of case to which he calls attention, namely, those in which the consequences of war strain manifested themselves, not at the time, but at a later date. These cases are from their nature particularly difficult to deal with, but where there is satisfactory medical evidence to show that a breakdown in health was due to continuous and exceptional war-time strain, we should submit the case to the Treasury for special consideration.
Zinc Concentrates
asked the President of the Board of Trade, what was the total tonnage of zinc concentrates held by the Government on the 31st March, 1921; what additional tonnage has been acquired in each month since that date; whether it is intended to allot to the Home smelters any of these concentrates at a low price with a view to assisting that industry; whether, if this is so, steps will be taken to enable Home mines to obtain an economic price for their production; and whether he sees any early prospect of disposing of the current Australian production, in addition to the accumulated stocks, at a price that will cover the original purchase cost, with interest and other expenses.
:As the answer is somewhat long, I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
:Can the hon. Gentleman say if this policy of purchasing Australian zinc at an inflated price is to be continued much longer in view of the distress amongst zinc miners in this country?
:I think the hon. and gallant Member will find all the information he requires in the answer.
:As this is a question of policy can I have an answer now? This is the last opportunity we shall have.
The following is the answer to the question on the paper:
The total quantity of zinc concentrates held by the Government on 31st March, 1921, was 573,685 tons. Since that date the following additional quantities have been delivered under the contract, namely, 11,943 tons in April, 14,085 tons in May, 16,677 tons in June, 17,758 tons in July, and 22,418 tons in August. Having regard to the present market price of spelter the Government are prepared to consider any offers from Home smelters for these concentrates which are reasonable in the circumstances, but the price which Home smelters may obtain for the spelter produced is entirely a matter for them. In view of present market conditions I see no prospect at present of disposing of the stocks at prices equivalent to the original purchase cost. I do not know of any steps likely to commend themselves to the Government which would enable Home mines to sell their output at a higher price than that ruling in the market.
Barley Returns
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether there is any longer any need for traders to continue to make returns of their stocks of barley and give information which was originally required by the Government during the War; and whether, in view of the official termination of the War now announced and the inconvenience and clerical labour involved both on the part of the traders concerned and the Government Department, the revocation of the Order in question can be made?
:I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton on the 11th July regarding these returns.
In view of the fact that that reply does not give any information, can the right hon. Gentleman inform the House as to the reason why people should be called upon to fill up these unnecessary and vexatious forms?
:In the interests of economy, will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to put an end to these unnecessary returns, which cost money not only to the persons who have to make the returns, but to the Department which has to check the returns when they are made?
:The whole question of these returns is under consideration.
:Is it not a fact that they come to an end under the Defence of the Realm Act?
Peofiteering Committees (Reports)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what Reports prepared by profiteering committees, other than the Alkali Report, have not been published; whether any such Reports have been suppressed on the ground that the investigation was not sufficiently far advanced for the publication of the Report to serve any useful purpose; and whether, seeing that the Alkali Report contains evidence of the refusal of the firms concerned to provide the Sub-committee with information* necessary to their investigations, he will now publish the Reports hitherto unpublished, and so ensure that the House and the general public are placed in full possession of the facts?
:Reports on the following subjects made to the Board of Trade by committees of the Central Profiteering Committee have not been published: Fixed Retail Prices (2nd Report); Scottish Mineral Oils; Montrose Fish Supplies; Cocoa and Cocoa By-products. Only the last mentioned Report was withheld on the ground indicated in the second part of the question. In reply to the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Spen Valley on the 9th August.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Sub-committee or the Standing Committee on Trusts which appointed the Sub-committee on the Alkali Industry expressed any view as to the desirability or otherwise of publishing the Alkali Report; and whether the Board of Trade can adduce any reason for withholding publication which would not have applied in the case of certain Reports which have already been published?
:No such view was expressed to the Board of Trade either by the Sub-committee or by the Standing Committee. With regard to the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on 9th August to the hon. Member for Spen Valley.
Royal Navy
Mine-Layer, Building at Devonport
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in relation to the mine-layer which is to be built at Devonport, the engines and boilers and the necessary auxiliary machinery required for the ship will also be built at Devonport?
:The boilers for this ship are already available, also portions of the main machinery and the accessory auxiliary machinery. It is the intention 4to complete as much as possible of this work by yard labour at Devonport.
Oil Tanks, Devonport
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether it is the intention of the Admiralty, in addition to the oil tanks to be used as reservoirs at the Thanckes Depot, to build others for the Ernesettle Depot, Devonport; and, if so, in view of the fact that boilermakers are being discharged at Devonport, arrangements will be made to build some of the extra oil tanks at that port, as the machinery there is adapted for this particular class of work?
:It is the intention of the Admiralty to erect additional oil fuel storage tanks on the Erne-settle site at Devonport, but it is improbable that the manufacture of any of the tanks can be proceeded with at present. The suggestion in the last portion of the question will be borne in mind when the time comes for building the tanks.
Questions
Parcels Delivery, Borrowdale
asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been drawn to the unsatisfactory condition of the parcels delivery system in Borrowdale, Keswick, district; and whether he will take steps to restore the delivery to its prewar state of efficiency.
:I will have enquiry made, and will write to my hon. and gallant Friend.
Scottish Herring Industry
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the unsatisfactory condition of the Scottish herring fishing industry consequent upon the closing of the Russian and German markets, the high cost of coal, and other adverse circumstances; and whether, having regard to the importance, from the point of view of the national defence, of retaining the existing fishing population on the Scottish coasts, he will appoint a committee to inquire into the conditions under which the trade is now carried on and to report as to what measures can usefully be taken to restore its prosperity.
:My right hon. Friend is fully aware of the difficulties confronting the herring fishing industry but, while the depression may continue for some little time, he has every confidence that the ability and energy of those engaged in the industry will ultimately overcome the difficulties. According to his information, the German market is this year absorbing large quantities of cured herrings from Scotland and England. If the associations representing the industry have any suggestions to make for restoring its prosperity my right hon. Friend will be glad to consider them as also the suggestion made by my hon. Friend for the appointment of a Committee.
:As the hon. Gentleman invites suggestions, would it not be well to ask the railway companies to introduce brine freezing and refrigerating cars on the systems, so that the facilities for the distribution of herrings in home market may be increased?
:I will pass on that suggestion to my right hon. Friend.
Ex-Service Men (Industrial Training)
asked the Minister of Labour whether, with reference to the final date for application under the industrial training scheme being fixed for the 30th September, 1921, he is aware that very many ex-service men throughout the country are still unaware that this is the final date; will he cause notices to be put up in all post offices; and will he issue leaflets containing full information with all ring papers?
:I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that every effort is being and will continue to be made to secure full publicity, and I have every confidence that all men eligible under the training scheme will have full opportunity of applying before it is too late.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman going to adopt either of the suggestions which I have made in my question?
:I think that a number of them have been adopted, but I will send my hon. and gallant Friend precise details of what has been done.
:Have notices been, or will notices be, put up in all the post offices?
:Yes. They should have been put up by this time. I will consult my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General.
Unfit Horses (Export)
asked the Minister of Agriculture the names of the ports in the British Isles which are subject to inspection in connection with the trade in worn-out horses; whether all horses, mules, and asses are shipped under the surveillance of his inspectors; what are the hours of duty of the inspectors; if he is aware that there have been cases where horses which have been refused by the railway companies are conveyed secretly for shipment; what steps are taken to prevent this; and if he will give the destination of the horses at present being shipped at Southampton?
:I have been asked to reply. The ports in Great Britain at which the veterinary inspection of horses intended for export is carried out are the following: Leith, Hull, Grimsby, Goole, Harwich, Folkestone, and Southampton. With the exception of a few racing horses, certified as such by the Jockey Club, all horses, mules, and asses which are destined for export to the Continent of Europe are required to be examined by veterinary officers appointed by the Ministry, and are shipped under their surveillance. The inspectors are on duty at the time most convenient for the examination of the animals. The Ministry is not aware of any cases where horses which have been refused by railway companies have been conveyed secretly for shipment, and such evidence as is available does not substantiate the suggestion that such a practice takes place. The Ministry's records show that in the current year up to the 13th instant, the destination of the 78 horses which were examined by the Ministry's inspectors prior to shipment from Southampton was as follows: Havre, 24; Trouville, 42; and St. Malo, 12.
Northern Rhodesia (Buxton Committee Report)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the fact that the Report of the Buxton Committee on Northern Rhodesia has not yet been made public, and that no announcement has been made as to the form that the government of that territory will take when the Charter of the British South Africa Company comes to an end, he will give an undertaking that no important changes in the status and constitution of Northern Rhodesia will be carried out until the House has had an opportunity of discussing such changes next Session?
:The Report of the Buxton Committee on Northern Rhodesia will, I hope, be in the hands of Members to-day. When my Noble Friend has had time to study it, he will see that the Report raises no question of general constitutional change in the immediate future.
:Do I understand that the assurance which I have asked for in this question can be given, and that the status of the country shall not be changed until Parliament has had an opportunity of discussing it?
:I am not in a position to give an absolute pledge on that point I received this question only half an hour ago, owing, no doubt, not to the fault of my Noble Friend. I think that the inference which he draws is the one which in any case is likely to be realised, but I will bring the suggestion of my Noble Friend to my right hon. Friend.
:Will the hon. Gentleman also bring to his notice the point as to whether this question should not be referred to the Advisory Council in Northern Rhodesia, and that their advice should be asked about it?
:Certainly I will.
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Telegraph (Money) Bill.
Public Works Loans Bill.
Aberdeen Corporation (Electricity Works Railway) Order Confirmation Bill.
Bridge of Allan Water, etc., Order Confirmation Bill.
Stirlingshire and Falkirk Water Order Confirmation Bill.
Dumbarton Burgh (Water) Order Confirmation Bill.
North British Railway (Burntisland Harbour Transfer) Order Confirmation Bill.
Grangemouth and Stirling Water Order Confirmation Bill, without Amendment.
Railways Bill, with Amendments.
Amendments to—
Education (Consolidation) Bill [ Lords ],
County of London Electric Supply Company Bill [Lords],
South Shields Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
Manchester Corporation (General Powers) Bill [ Lords ],
West Ham Corporation Bill [ Lords ], without Amendment.
Railways Bill
Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 215.]
Juries Bill,
"to amend the Law with respect to the preparation of jurors' books and otherwise to amend the Law relating to jurors and juries in England and Wales," presented by Mr. SHOKTT; supported by Sir Gordon Hewart and Sir John Baird; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed [Bill 214.]
Orders of the Day
Safeguarding of Industries Bill
Order for consideration of Lords Amendments read.
:It is my duty to tell the House that the Amendments made by the Lords to this Bill are undoubtedly privileged Amendments.
As to the procedure for dealing with them, I would remind the House that the Parliament Act, Section 6, expressly reserved the existing rights and privileges of the House of Commons.
It is open to the House, therefore, if it so please, to follow the older procedure, without derogating from its ultimate powers under the Parliament Act.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]
:I thought the right hon. Gentleman was about to make an explanation as to why the Amendments should be considered. I had no intention of taking part in this Debate, but as I should otherwise exhaust my right to speak I wish now to make one observation. I understand that your suggestion with regard to Section 6 of the Parliament Act will enable this House to treat the Lords Amendments as if the Parliament Act had never been, and that we can revert to the older practice, and treat the Amendments as if there were no question of the rights of the Lords to deal with money Bills.
:I hope the hon. and gallant Member will not take anything more or less than what I have said.
:I did not intend to pursue that matter further; but this is a money Bill, and if we are to preserve the standpoint that this House has adopted I think there should be a protest. Of course I had hot intended to make that protest, for I had hoped it would be in abler hands. If this question is now passed without an explanation the position may not be reaffirmed, which I submit is of the very greatest importance. If the question is passed now, we proceed to discuss the merits of the various Amendments—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—and we cannot discuss the question whether the Lords Amendments should be considered or not. I want to enter a protest against considering any Amendments to a Bill which has been certified by Mr. Speaker as a money Bill.
:I thought it would be more convenient to take this Resolution formally, and to make my statement on the Motion which I would then have made to disagree with the Lords Amendments; but since the hon. and gallant Gentleman desires an explanation at this stage of the proceedings, I think he or any other Member is entitled to have it. It is a singular fact that an Amendment should have been introduced in another place which not merely infringes our old-established principle, but directly contravenes the spirit of the Parliament Act, and that it should have been introduced by a Noble Lord who was one of the principal authors of that Act. The only relevance of the Parliament Act for our immediate purpose is that, if we choose to send these Amendments for reconsideration back to the other place, and they insist on a conflict with this House, it is still within the power of this House to secure the passage of the Bill into law as it left this House. But I do not desire at this moment to raise the question of the Parliament Act. I do so only in consequence of the reference by the hon. and gallant Gentleman to the subject, for I found myself on the ancient and admitted privileges of this House as they existed before the Parliament Act, and as they remain unaffected by the Parliament Act.
It is perfectly clear, as you, Mr. Speaker, have, in accordance with precedent, felt bound to inform us, that such Amendments are privileged Amendments. What then has been the practice of this House in respect of such Amendments? There have been occasions when the Amendments have been of little consequence—drafting Amendments to make clear the meaning of this House, or something of that kind—when this House has been pleased to waive its privilege and accept an Amendment coming from the Lords. But I do not think that that has ever been done in respect of an Amendment of substance. I submit that we ought not to waive our privilege in respect of a matter of substance, and that we should disagree with the Lords, without any discussion on the merits at this stage, but simply upon the one ground that this House must stand upon its privilege. I am closely following custom in this matter by the course I recommend to the House. I find in the "Parliamentary Practice" of Sir Erskine May that
:This ruling of yours, Mr. Speaker, and the observations of the Leader of the House as to the course the Government propose to adopt, in my opinion, raise a question of great gravity. Let me rule out at once from consideration two matters that would appear to be irrelevant. One is the merits of the Amendments which the other House introduced into the Bill. Personally—my opinion is not of much value on that point —if they are not improvements they are at least mitigations of the mis- chiefs that would follow from the Bill. But that is not the point. Equally let us rule out, for it is equally irrelevant, the procedure and machinery provided by the Parliament Act. This has nothing whatever to do with the Parliament Act. The Parliament Act, as has already been pointed out, in its sixth Section—I remember well the circumstances in which it was inserted—provides that—
That has been the law of Parliament for more than two hundred years, and if on this occasion, whatever our opinions may be as to the merits and demerits of any changes that have been made, we were to waive the undoubted, traditional, and unvaried privileges of the House of Commons, asserted over and over again and never disputed by the House of Lords, because perchance we thought, or some of us thought, that the Amendments introduced improvements into the body and substance of the Bill, we should be sacrificing for a comparatively small advantage great privileges and traditions which are essential, in my opinion, to the undisputed control of this House over the financial arrangements of the country. During the whole progress of the Parliament Act—and no one can speak with more authority on that subject than I can—that principle was expressly safeguarded both on the one side and on the other, and the result is the language, explicit and unmistakable, of the sixth section. On the mere question of form, I cannot understand what induced my-hon. and gallant Friend to think that the proper moment at which to interpose was on the question "That the Lords Amendments be now considered." I think it is more courteous to the House of Lords, and equally efficacious for the pur- pose in view, that we should disagree with their Amendments solely on the ground that they are a breach of the ancient and undoubted privileges of this House.
:I listened with great interest to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, and to the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. The Leader of the House read out from Erskine May the statement that the House of Lords has no right to interfere with taxes, rates, etc., and the right hon. Gentleman opposite, in very weighty words, emphasised it. May I remind him that he has not always acted up to the good example which he suggests the present Government should follow. I think in 1909 an Amendment increasing the charges on rates in Scotland was moved in the House of Lords. Mr. Speaker informed this House that it was a privilege Amendment, whereupon the Secretary for Scotland in the right hon. Gentleman's Government got up and moved that we should agree with the Amendment. I happened to be sitting on the second Bench opposite, and I immediately drew the attention of the House to the fact, of which, apparently, they were not aware, that it was in effect imposing on the rates a charge to which we had not agreed in this House. I do not remember exactly what happened, but I am rather inclined to think that I won the day. As the right hon. Gentleman, when it suits him, has departed from the principles which he has just laid down, I thought it my duty to remind the House of what then occurred.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
CLAUSE 2.—(Power of Board of Trade to apply Part II to certain goods.)
(1) If, on complaint being made to the Board to that effect, it appears to the Board that goods of any class or description (other than articles of food or drink) manufactured in a country outside the United Kingdom are being sold or offered for sale in the United Kingdom—
Provided that the Board shall not so refer any matter involving a question of depreciation of currency unless they are satisfied that the value of the currency of the country in question in relation to sterling is less by thirty-three and one-third per cent., or upwards, than the par value of exchange.
Lords Amendment:
In Sub-section (1), after the word "drink," insert "or articles for use in the practice of husbandry, agriculture, or the raising of stock."
Disagreed with.
CLAUSE 9.—(Duration, etc., of Orders.)
An order made under this Part of this Act shall, unless previously revoked by the Board, continue in force for three years or such less period as may be specified in the order; but any such order may, subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, be renewed from time to time by an order made in like manner and subject to the like conditions as the original order:
Provided that the Board shall not have power to revoke any such order either wholly or as respects any country or article to which the order relates except after reference to and consideration of any report thereon by a committee constituted under this Part or this Act, and that an order made on the ground of depreciation of foreign currency shall not be made or continue in force after the expiration of three years from the passing of this Act.
Lords Amendments:
Leave out the word "three" ["continue in force for three years"], and insert "two."
After the word "Order" ["but any such Order may"], insert "specified to continue in force for a period of less than two years."
After the word "time" ["time by an Order made"], insert "before the expiration of this Act."
Leave out the word "such" ["revoke any such Order"].
After the word "Order" ["revoke any such Order"], insert "made under this part of this Act."
Leave out the word "three" ["after the expiration of three years"], and insert "two."
Disagreed with.
Committee appointed to draw up reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their Amendments to the Bill.
Committee nominated of Mr. Baldwin, Mr. Bowerman, Mr. Austen Chamberlain, and Sir Donald Maclean.
Two to be the quorum.
To withdraw immediately.—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]
Reasons for disagreeing to Lords Amendments reported:
"The Commons disagree to the Amendments made by the Lords for the following reason:
Because they infringe the sole and undoubted right of the Commons to impose taxation;
And the Commons consider it unnecessary to offer any further reason, hoping that the above reason may be deemed sufficient."
—and Agreed to.
To be communicated to the Lords.—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]
Imperial Conference
Prime Minister's Statement
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Colonel Leslie Wilson. ]
:I hope that the Prime Minister will be here immediately to make his statement, and that he "will deal with the questions considered at the Conference of Prime Ministers held quite recently. A large number of questions of great interest and of vital importance to the Empire were considered, and, if I might refer to one or two of those questions, I would put first in order of importance the defence of the Empire. We have had a discussion with regard to our own policy in the matter of laying down capital ships and of airships for the whole of the Empire. We have had a calamitous experience with regard to our airships. Some effort was made to preserve them by offering them to some business syndicates who might be prepared to establish air routes within the Empire. No large business firms came forward to take the airships over, and there was some discussion in the Imperial Conference with regard to their preservation. I am sure that those who are interested in aviation would like to know whether the Conference came to any decision which can be practicable within the lifetime of the existing ships. Some of us have had an opportunity of seeing one of those ships in actual operation. We had the advantage of appreciating the ease with which they travel and the comfort with which one can travel in them as compared with any other form of conveyance known to us. When the question of distances is taken into consideration, one realises that the advantage of an Imperial service of airships would be enormous if it could be done inside any reasonable expenditure. Some expenditure has been incurred on air stations in different parts of the Empire. If I remember rightly, there was one laid down in Egypt and another further East. At any rate, estimates were prepared and certain work was done in creating the machinery required at those places for a system of this kind. Anybody would be prepared to support anything of the kind which would more closely unite the Empire so long as it did not mean an expenditure of the taxpayers' money not commensurate with the advantage of the system. That was one large question which was raised at the Conference. There were others. I mentioned in passing the question of the naval and military defence of the Empire, and I referred to the question of laying down large capital ships. We want some information as to that policy. The Prime Minister, speaking the other day with regard to this question, drew attention to the large place which the Pacific Ocean was going to take in the future economy of the Empire.
I see the Prime Minister has now arrived, and I presume I may regard myself as having fulfilled a necessary function. [HON MEMBERS: "Go on."] It is not often one is encored for a speech. The Prime Minister need not trouble about the remarks I was making. I am not concerned that he should reply to the points I raised, apart from what he considers should be included in his statement as to the Conference of the Imperial Premiers. As the Prime Minister was not present, I merely rose to make these few remarks until he came in. We are more concerned to know about the points with which the Prime Minister himself wishes to deal. All I need say in closing is that the House welcomed the Conference of the Dominion Premiers in this country. We watched that meeting with great interest, although it was not possible to have a report of its proceedings from day to day. So far as one could observe, however, it was a successful Conference and did something to further bind together the Dominions of the Empire, to which we are all proud to belong. These recurring Conferences must result in an increase of good will and of good relations between the different parts of the Empire, and in making more secure what I consider to be the best, the biggest, and the most real League of Nations we have in existence to-day, namely, the federation of free nations includeed in the British Empire.
:I am very much obliged to my hon. Friend for his efforts—in which he has displayed his usual skill—whilst I was attending to a deputation. I was under the impression that the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Com-mander Kenworthy) was going to raise certain questions. In fact, he gave me notice, and it is very rarely that he fails on such occasions. [An HON. MEMBER: "He also had a deputation."] At any rate, the failure has not been confined to this bench, but I had hoped to have his cross-examination over before I made any statement.
:I will ask you now.
:I would prefer to proceed with my statement. There were two or three Resolutions passed at the Imperial Conference, on which I promised the Dominion Premiers I would make a statement before the House rose. Therefore I am very much obliged for the opportunity now afforded me of doing so, in order that I may discharge the obligation which I incurred. I agree with what has fallen from the last speaker, that, in itself, a Conference of this character is of value in the consolidation of the Empire. The last few years have witnessed a very remarkable development in the constitution of the Empire, and in its growth. When, in August, 1914, this country declared War, there was not a single Dominion from which we could have levied any contribution either in men or in money. They were not involved in the dispute, except as members of the British Empire. It was concerning something that had no particular interest for them up to that moment, but they never hesitated for one hour. Without a single exception, they rallied to the Flag, and the aid which they gave to the Mother Country astonished not merely the world, but even the great enthusiasts of Empire in this country.
The Dominions sent millions of men to our aid, and there were no finer troops in the battlefields of Europe or of Asia than the troops that came from the Dominions. That is an acknowledged fact. India sent 1,250,000 troops to our aid. All these were sent voluntarily. We could not have compelled a single Canadian, Australian, New Zealander, or South African to come to our assistance. They came of their own free will; they came with alacrity; they came without loss of time, and it is not too much to say that the fact that they came made the difference in the event. They made history and they made great history.
The whole course of human affairs has been altered because the British Empire has been proved to be a fact, and not what a good many people who knew nothing about it imagined, a fiction. That altered the character—the constitutional character—of the Empire. What happened then? In 1917 the Dominion Premiers and the representatives of India were invited to join the British Cabinet which was directing the War. Before 1914, they took no part in the direction of Imperial affairs. I do not know what measure of consultation there was on Imperial questions, but I do not think there was much. In 1917 and 1918, however, they sat continuously with the War Cabinet, and in the War Cabinet, as members of the War Cabinet directing that Great War—the representatives of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and India.
:And Newfoundland.
:Yes, and Newfoundland also. I am glad to be reminded of that. That was a new departure, and a very important departure. Then came the Peace Conference. The representatives of the Dominions and of India constituted part of the British delegation, and sat in almost constant session in Paris, directing the policy of the British Empire. My right hon. Friend the President of the Council (Mr. Balfour), and I represented the British Empire inside the Conference, but there was no action taken by us that had not been submitted beforehand to the British Empire Delegation, on which the Dominions and India were represented. We held constant Conferences, or Cabinets, in Paris, where the whole of the Empire was represented, where representatives of all parts of the Empire took part in the discussions, and where they had exactly the same voice in determining British policy as any member of the British Cabinet. That was a further development. In the War they had been in our War Councils; in the Peace they were part of the Cabinet that decided the policy of the British Empire, and determined the destinies of Europe. Events of that character, imperceptibly, without writing down rules and regulations, without framing written constitutions determined the constitution of the Empire. It was one of those developments, to which Britain is accustomed—
They only say now: "We gave you 2,250,000 or nearly 2,500,000 of picked men, and we incurred enormous debts in supporting your policy. As we may be committed in the future by the Crown, which holds us together, by the Crown which is ours as much as it is yours to a given policy, before we send our sons to fight for that policy, we ought to have a voice in fashioning that policy." We say: "That is right; not only is it right, but we are glad to have your advice and your counsel."There are distractions, and there are excitements which render it very difficult to preserve an even balance of judgment when you are right in the middle of things. Here they come from the ends of the earth—people who take a more detached view, people who perhaps are able to judge more calmly, or at any rate, from a. different standpoint—and we are glad to have their advice, to have their counsel, to have their wisdom put into the common stock in-the work of directing the affairs of the Empire, upon whose decisions the fate of mankind depends more than upon any other nation's decisions. Therefore, we were glad to welcome them, and we were glad to have a very full and frank discussion upon the foreign policy of the British Empire. My Noble Friend the Foreign Secretary (Marquess Curzon) made an extremely luminous statement on the world position, and there was full discussion upon that. After the discussions we came to a common understanding as to the lines of our policy. We discussed questions like Silesia, Asia Minor, reparations, the disarmament of Germany—
:Ireland?
:No, we did not discuss Ireland. We certainly should not have objected to discussing Ireland, but we did not. They have their difficulties in regard to Ireland just as much as we have, and they were not particularly anxious. It is not a sort of question that you go into of your own free will. Therefore, there was no burning desire—
:Except on the part of General Smuts.
:No, that is not quite fair. There was no burning anxiety on his part. He acted a perfectly straightforward and an honourable part. There was nothing he did upon which they were not fully informed, and whatever he did he did it with the full assent of the Sovereign and the Ministers of this country.
:Not as a representative of the Conference.
:Not as a representative of the Conference, but purely as an individual. However, that rather leads me away from the point.
We discussed the whole of the foreign policy of the Empire, and it was an additional source of strength in going into the Allied Conference in Paris last week to know—the Foreign Secretary and myself—that we represented not merely the views of the United Kingdom, but the views of the whole British Empire. It was not merely a source of strength to us, but it made an impression upon all those who were there'—the knowledge that we represented this very great and powerful Empire which had contributed so substantially to victory in the late War. It had been decided sometime during the War that we should have a discussion upon the constitutional aspect of the Empire, and I wasbound to put that down on the agenda; but the general feeling was that it would be a mistake to lay down any rules, or to embark upon definitions as to what the British Empire meant. To do so would be to limit its utility. To do so, I think, would be to weaken its unity. It is that indefinable thing that makes the British Empire united, potent. You are defining life itself when you are defining the British Empire. You cannot do it, and, therefore, we came to the conclusion that the fact was the thing that mattered. When the War came there were 2,250,000 men—
:Including India?
:Yes, including India, and that is much better than written rules. They were consulted in the Peace Conference; they were now consulted, and there was an understanding that on all questions of foreign policy they should be informed and, in so far as distance would permit, that they should be consulted. That is what matters. We do not want to interfere with their internal affairs, and they do not want to interfere with ours; but they all want to feel that they are part of this amazing organisation, which is the first thing of its kind that the world has ever seen. And therefore we decided—and the British representatives at the Conference cordially agreed—that it was better not to enter into definitions, not to lay down rules, and not to say that the British Empire henceforth shall be one, two, three, four, five. That is not what makes the Empire. That is the conclusion to which we came, and I think the House of Commons will agree that it was the wise thing to do. It has grown, developed, consolidated in a way which nothing could make possible, but the gigantic events that, in testing it, were bound either to break it or to solidify it. And there is no doubt at all that the events of the last few years have con solidated the Empire in a way which probably generations would not otherwise have done.
Therefore we came to the conclusion that we would have no constitutional Conference. The thing that matters is as frequent conferences as time and distance will permit. After all, it is very difficult for Imperial Ministers to come from the other' end of the earth here once a year, when they have very important affairs of their own to attend to and, I have no doubt, very considerable difficulties. There are party controversies probably even there, and there are unreasonable people who criticise Governments even in the Southern Seas. It is the sort of thing that does not change with latitude or longitude or climate. It seems to be inherent in the heart of man, and to be part of his original sin. Therefore it is quite impossible for the Ministers to come frequently, considering the time which is expended in passing from, say, Australia and New Zealand. Canada is not so distant, and South Africa is not so distant, but Australia and' New Zealand are a totally different proposition, and we discussed the question of the possibilities of improving communications. There was an understanding that the Prime Ministers of the Dominions would have the full right to communicate direct with the Prime Minister of this country, but communications by cable are not a means by which you can have real consultation, because a man may have a particular point of view and may alter it, after hearing what is to be said on the other side, and the difficulty is to arrange any method by which we could meet a little more frequently. We discussed it at great length, and there were all sorts of suggestions made as to speedy cruisers, which I am told are not very comfortable, and even airships. [An HON. MEMBER: "You can telephone!"] You can telephone a message, but not a mission, from one end of the earth to the other. Therefore, it is very difficult. I think I should like experiments in airships to proceed a little further before I care to go to Australia in one of these airships. I should not like to be in an airship in a typhoon. We are holding up these airships for a short time until the Australian Prime Minister has an opportunity of consulting his colleagues as to the extent to which they would like to go in that matter. I do not think I can carry that very much further at the present moment. The most effective way undoubtedly of securing the unity of the Empire, and securing it by means of conference, is that through improved communications the Prime Ministers should meet oftener, in order to confer together.
The two questions, I think, which occupied most of our time, apart from foreign policy, were the questions of the Anglo-Japanese Alliance and the Pacific. Egypt was likewise discussed, and we also discussed the naval defence of the Empire. They were all agreed when we came to the question of naval defence that, at any rate, the Empire must have a naval force which is equal to that of any other country in the world. Upon that they were all agreed, but when it came to a question of contribution there was a general feeling—I think I can go to that extent—that it was unfair to leave the whole burden of the naval defence of the Empire with the Mother Country. The extent to which the Dominions should contribute—the best method of contribution—that must be left to each Dominion and to India to consider themselves. We cannot dictate, we cannot direct, and I am not sure that it will be very helpful if we even make suggestions, because they are each naturally very, I will not' say resentful, because that would not be a fair word, but they are each very anxious to guard their own independence in these respects. There are some who would like to contribute in one form, and some in another—some by means of naval stations, some by means of oiling stations, some by means of having a fleet of their own.
Each of these questions must be considered by the Dominions with their own Parliaments, and it is not a matter wherein we could presume in the least to dictate or prescribe, and where it would be wise even to suggest. The proposals must come from, themselves, and they are consulting their own Parliaments upon that particular question.
On the question of the Pacific, there was a good deal of discussion on the Japanese Alliance. The Alliance is an existing Alliance, and until 12 months' notice is given that Alliance continues. So that when you come to the question of whether you will give notice, you must consider how that Alliance has operated. There was a real test in the late War of that Alliance, and no man who watched what happened can come to any other conclusion than that it was loyally and faithfully interpreted and carried out by our Japanese Allies. Just see what happened. There you had the Pacific raided by fast German cruisers, and our ships sunk. We had to depend upon the help of New Zealand and of Australia.
Between them they sent between 500,000 and 600,000 first-class troops to our assistance. India sent more than 1,000,000 across seas which it would have been difficult for us to guard. We had to guard the Atlantic. We had to guard the Mediterranean very largely. We had to guard the North Sea—a gigantic operation even for our immense fleet. It was strained to the very last ship, new and old, in guarding our own shores against submarines and against possible attack from every German craft. And there was that immense ocean, the Pacific, the Southern Atlantic and the Indian Ocean—the greatest seas of the world. How were we to guarantee that 500,000 troops could cross thousands of miles of seas, and 1,000,000 troops from India could cross the Indian Ocean, and that no raider would sink them? How could we have done it? We could not have done it but for the fact that our Japanese Allies came to our aid. The Australian Prime Minister said so, and the New Zealand Prime Minister said so. They said, "We could never have sent our troops into that vast ocean at that time unless we had had that guarantee."
We could not have given the guarantee, certainly at the beginning of the War, had it not been for the Japanese Fleet offering their assistance in chasing the raiders. It was invaluable. It was one of the determining factors of the War. They loyally, faithfully in the letter and in the spirit, carried out their obligation.
Is it to be suggested that we should now turn round, and say to them, "You stood by us in trouble, but we do not need you any longer, so good-bye"? Would anyone behave like that in business? The British Empire must behave like a gentleman, and when you come to deal with a country that has stood by you in trouble—stood well by you—are you to bring the alliance to an end when the trouble is over? I say that that would not be becoming of the British Empire in dealing with a faithful Ally. And let me say this: I do not believe there is any country in the world, whether it likes the Japanese Alliance or does not like it, that would think any better of the British Empire if we broke off the Alliance—not one. They might appear to be glad for the moment that we had done so, but in their hearts they would despise us for doing it. That does not mean that we are to continue an Alliance of this kind against anyone else, and certainly not against the United States of America. It is, and must be, a cardinal principle of British policy that we should act in as complete accord with the United States of America as any two countries can. I do not know of any country in the world with whom it is more important that we should act in concert than with the United States of America. So much so that it is very difficult to get an Englishman to regard an American as a foreigner. There is a different feeling; there is a sense of fraternity.
:Except the Home Office.
:No office. It is cardinal that we should act in concert with the United States of America; but I do not see whyit is impossible to remember your obligations to Japan, preserve your friendship for that great country, and, at the same time, preserve a spirit of fraternity with the United States of America. That is one of the questions upon which I had hoped it would have been possible, and still hope it may be possible, to have a discussion. If an Alliance with Japan could merge in a greater understanding with Japan and with the United States of America in all the problems of the Pacific, that would be a great event, and a guarantee for the peace of the world. Because the problems of humanity may be to-day in the Atlantic Ocean, yesterday in the German. Ocean. They may pass to-morrow into the Pacific, and, when they do, the Powers that are most greatly concerned in Pacific matters are the United States of America, Japan, and the British Empire.
:And China.
:Certainly, China. Those four great countries are primarily concerned in having a complete understanding with regard to the Pacific. But the surest way to make a success of any Disarmament Conference is, first of all, to come to an understanding upon the Pacific. I do not myself believe that you will attain the same measure of success in a Disarmament Conference until you have attained that complete understanding. Disarmament would be much easier if you could get that clear understanding first, and I am still hopeful that this view may be taken. The British Empire as a whole were all agreed in the desire to have complete friendship with the United States of America, and to make arrangements which would remove every conceivable prospective obstacle to such friendship. Nothing would please the British Dominions as well as the Mother Country more than a settlement which would make them feel that the British Empire and the United States of America could work side by side in a common partnership for the restoration of the peace of the world, and for guaranteeing the peace of the world. I do not know of any guarantee that would be equal to that of the United States of America and the British Empire in agreement upon the great principles upon which world policy ought to be based. That is an absolute guarantee of the peace of the world, and I am still hopeful that such an understanding as would establish a scheme of that kind may ensue as a result of the coming Conference in Washington. Those are some of the great problems which we have discussed.
:Will the right hon. Gentleman say anything about Egypt?
:It is a little difficult, because there are negotiations going on at the present moment with some very distinguished representatives. As a matter of fact, I am hoping to have the pleasure to-morrow of seeing the head of that Delegation himself, and, therefore, I think it would be a. little difficult to have any discussion at the present moment upon that problem. I am sincerely desirous of an understanding there which would make it possible to make: Egyptian freedom and British interests coincide, and work together for the benefit of that ancient and renowned country, and I am very sanguine that such an arrangement can be achieved.
Those are some of the problems which we discussed at the Imperial Conference. They represent a distinct advance in the working of Empire, and they are full of lessons at the present moment. There you had four or five nations sitting round that table, different races, some of them absolutely different civilisations. There were New Zealand, Australia, Canada and South Africa. There were Englishmen, Scotchmen, Welshmen and Frenchmen. There were Englishmen and Dutchmen from South Africa; men of different races, who within recent years had been fighting each other with a fierce antagonism. I remember the conflict on the Floor of this House; I took a little part in it. There they were all meeting for a common purpose as free nations. We never interfere with them. They never interfere with us. They did not feel there was anything which derogated from their national dignity to come there for common council in this great bond of nations. On the contrary, it gave an added dignity and an added strength.
Take the Peace Conference. Supposing they had been there as separate independent nations, holding no allegiance to the British Crown. They would not have had one-fifth of the power and dignity they had as representatives of nations inside the British Empire. There was one man sitting on a Commission—the Prime Minister of Canada—deciding questions of the Turkish Empire. There was another sitting on a Commission deciding the fate of Poland and the Eastern frontiers of Germany. Why were they there? Had they been independent nations, they would not have sat so high in the Council Chamber. It was the fact that they were independent nations inside the British Empire which gave them all this power; they knew it, and they are proud of it. It has not derogated from the individual freedom of any one of them—not one.
5.0 P.M.
That fact is full of lessons at this moment which I hope will not be lost—of freedom inside the British nation, national freedom, national pride, national development which has been possible inside this great League of Nations, the first great successful League of Nations, the first great successful League of Free Nations the world has ever seen. India is simply at the first step on the road to self-government. She will develop. There is nothing that will give greater satisfaction than the feeling that she also has pride in the Empire. They have fought for their national claims. They have fought for their Indian rights in Natal and elsewhere. But they were all proud of being in the British Empire. It was a great lesson. It was a great spectacle to see these men of many nations, these men of different civilisations, of older civilisations than ours, more varied in many respects, richer than ourselves, bringing from the store of the old and the new of the old civilisation, the old strength, the old wisdom that has come from the far centuries to the vigour of the New World—all constituting the strength of this great new Empire which is, we believe, destined to play a worthy part in the history of the world.
:The recital of the Prime Minister has been deeply interesting of what has happened and what are the possibilities latent in the Conference. The speech I make will be very brief, because I know other hon. Members wish to bring special topics before the House. I think, however, we in all parts of the House ought to re-echo what the Prime Minister said at the opening of his remarks as to the great services of the Dominions, and India, in the Great War. These services were not rendered after deliberate Parliamentary consultation. It is no exaggeration to say that all parts of the British Empire rushed to the aid of the Mother Country in her hour of need. There was no more interesting statement of a philosophic nature made by the Prime Minister than when he referred, perhaps all unconsciously to himself—he was drawn back to what is, after all, the most outstanding and most potent factor, the unity of the Empire—to the unwritten bond, the self-conscious, instinctive way in which the British Empire has been developed. The right hon. Gentleman will remember, like myself, that barely a quarter of a century ago, Professor Seeley, I think it was, speaking of the growth of the British Empire, said:
We ought to acknowledge here, following the acknowledgment the Prime Minister has made, the great sacrifices which our self-governing Dominions have made in attending these Conferences at the centre of the Empire. He has told us here, and we know ourselves, what great calls there are upon the time and energies of the Prime Ministers acting in and through the representative institutions of these great sister nations of ours. They have the same problems in essence as we have here. My right hon. Friend knows how very often we have complained of the fact that he cannot be here more than two days a week; but suppose we had to reconcile ourselves to the head of our Government going to Australia, or to Canada, or to other distant places of the earth for months at a time? To my mind that shows the sacrifices which the great self-governing Dominions have made and still propose to make in the great cause, not only of British unity, but, as they hope and believe, and as we hope and believe, the progressive betterment of mankind.
I will only touch very briefly on one or two points to which the Prime Minister referred. I hope that what he said about the naval armaments was indicative, and I so take it, of his determination that the financial and other resources of the Empire will be utilised to the smallest possible extent in military and naval armaments. I must say here that the speech by one of his colleagues on the Bench—I refer to the Secretary of State for the Colonies—some nights ago, filled me with alarm. It held out very little hope, to my mind, not only in the words, but in the spirit in which he uttered them, of that better state of things which I had hoped had dawned upon us. I take it, from what the Prime Minister has said to-day, that it is his fixed determination, consistent, of course, always with security, that there should be no flaunting of armaments in the face of the world, which is seeking and praying for international peace. No doubt in the coming Conference at Washington grave issues may be retarded in their progress towards a better state of things, or very much assisted, by the spirit in which the whole task is undertaken.
I hope and believe that our whole effort will be based upon an endeavour, and I believe a successful endeavour, to achieve through what may happen at Washington a settlement of the principle which may remove this menace to the hopes of disarmament throughout the world. For here really is the main difficulty to any disarmament at the present time. It is not military in the land sense; it is the naval trouble. I hope and pray that the result of the most important conversations which take place there may be entirely fruitful. After all it would be a happy thing if the Prime Minister was able himself to go, because the matter is a most important one, and I think I express what others feel, that while undoubtedly there are many other things which require attention at home, I am certain it is the wish of the country that if it can possibly be managed that at this epoch-making conference he himself should be present. The Prime Minister has asked me not to say anything about Egypt. In just one or two sentences let me express the hope, and indeed to urge, that there should be no avoidable delay in dealing with this most urgent problem. How urgent, and how serious it may at any moment become, we do not know. Do not let these matters drag on any longer than can possibly be helped. To deal with this matter by military commitments which might be a serious menace would, I am sure, be regarded by the whole country with the greatest possible seriousness and alarm. My final point is this: I am thankful to hear that in the deliberations which have been taking place it was the united intention that our self-governing Dominions and India should take their share in the shaping of the foreign policy of the future. I regard that, even if it stood entirely by itself, as well worth the meeting of the Conference. The time has gone when the fate of millions of men and the shattering of the lives and happiness of the peoples on earth can be decided by old gentlemen discussing the affairs—[An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear!"]
:What about my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister?
:No, no, I am not referring to the Prime Minister. He knows I am not. I am referring to the old European diplomacy of the past. He knows what I mean. So far as possible let light into these things. You have men coming from the ends of the earth with their new ideas, their unconventionality, which in these things is of very great use. I hope that the foreign policy of this great Commonwealth of Nations, as we call the British Empire, will be shaped on different lines to that which existed of old in the countries, and which caused all the old wicked wars which ought to have been avoided, or fought by the men who caused them. There is much hope in the interesting and fascinating description which the Prime Minister gave of the results of the Conference, and I for one thank him for the information which he has given to the House.
:Perhaps it is right that a back Bench Member should say one or two words, especially one who belongs to what is generally known as the old Conservative party. It is because there is an impression still left in some of the Dominions overseas that we hold certain old-fashioned doctrines in the direction of a hard-and-fast Imperial Federation that I am anxious to remove any suspicion that those opinions are held by any considerable section of people in this country. I think all who are interested in Imperial problems are in entire accord with the Prime Minister that the time has not arrived, and may never arrive, when it is necessary to lay down rules or formulate in definitions a constitution for the British Empire. As it has developed we have seen it develop with increasing strength because of its national freedom within the greater Commonwealths. Therefore I rejoice that the proposed Imperial Conference to deal with constitutional matters is not going to take place, and that we are going to trust, as heretofore, to the meetings between the responsible statesmen of the various self-governing Dominions.
I am particularly glad with all the Prime Minister said in his speech about the value and importance of fully associating the democratic self-governing Dominions in all questions of foreign policy. I believe the fact that countries like Australia and Canada are so democratic and are to be associated with foreign policy will be the most valuable check upon the reaction which may so easily take place in this country where foreign politics have been so essentially the affair of the Foreign Office, and so little the affair of the democratic House of Parliament. That has been so for many years past, and it is in a way inevitable. It belongs to ancient history, and to the fact that in the old days for generations past diplomacy was the affair, not of the vast electorate, but of the initiated few. That day has ceased with the War, and the one thing that will prevent possibly an almost natural reaction in an ancient country like this is the fact that the Dominions will demand from their Prime Ministers, and from those who come to the Imperial Conference to know all that it is right should be known and made public, and should be fully associated with their executive Governments in any action or commitments that may be undertaken.
Further, they will want to know in Canada and Australia, or, at any rate, the Canadian and Australian Parliaments will want to know, the reasons given for those commitments. I am glad there is to be a better system of communicating information from the Foreign Office to the different Governments, and to the Imperial Premiers in particular, because that; is the difficulty. The real difficulty is to bring the self-governing Dominions into touch with the information. The channels of information, after all, are still almost entirely in the hands of this country—that is to say, the Ambassadors, the Counsellors of Embassy, the Diplomatic Staff, and the Consular Staff would feed only this Government with their foreign information, and all the official information comes from the Foreign Office in this country. The great self-governing Dominions have not yet got the same sources of information, and until they get their own sources of official, confidential information, they will not get, unless they get it fully and freely from the central Foreign Office of the Empire here, all the information they require, and they will not get the information which alone can give them proper control and voice in shaping and deciding questions of policy.
To begin with I would suggest that the High Commissioners of the self-governing Dominions should be kept as closely informed as possible by the Foreign Office of anything which it is reasonable and right should be communicated to them for communication to their respective Governments. I attach enormous importance to developing machinery of that kind for bringing the Empire and those distant Dominions into a position whereby they will not say, "We cannot give you advice upon this or that matter because we have not got the information." It is essential that just as our Prime Minister and our Foreign Secretary have information, so in the Dominions their Prime Ministers and Ministers of Defence should have the same information. Nothing should be hidden from any of the Governments responsible for advising His Majesty upon the external policy of the Empire. I think that is a very important point.
The next question I wish to refer to is India. India for a long time past has had its own Foreign Office and foreign secretariat, and I rejoice that Indian representatives are being brought into the counsels of the Imperial Conference and the meeting of Premiers. I think it is most important that the Dominion Statesmen should have an opportunity such as they have not had in the past of realising what a tremendous thing India is in the British Empire. After all, 315,000,000 people, of whom over 200,000,000 are subjects of the British Crown, are our fellow subjects with the Dominions in India. India is making rapid strides in the direction of self-government, and it is perfectly clear that if that goal is to be reached by India it will not be reached by India thinking only of her own internal affairs, but by being associated with all the work of the Empire.
Just as it has been made perfectly clear at the recent Imperial Conference that Australia and New Zealand are not merely concerned with the internal affairs of those countries, but are equally concerned with the United Kingdom in the great external affairs common to the Empire as a whole, so if India is to realise her rightful place, Indians will have to take an equal share in the wider responsibilities of the British Empire as a whole. That is why I rejoice, even before India has got full self-government, that a distinguished Indian prince and a distinguished Indian statesman have been associated with the Imperial Conference. I hope that precedent will never be gone back upon, and I hope that it is a clear realisation by the Dominions and ourselves of the rightful position of India inside the Emipre.
Probably the most important question which the Imperial Conference considered was that of the future of the Anglo-Japanese Alliance. I was delighted this afternoon with everything that the Prime Minister said with regard to that Alliance. Let us not forget what we owed to Japan in the early days of the War. Let us not forget the extraordinary diplomatic faithfulness of the Japanese representatives in Europe and at the Peace Conferences in this country, and the way in which they invariably supported the British Empire. We should recognise that and never forget it. At the same time, let us look at the facts. The future of the Anglo-Japanese Alliance will be tried through the action of Japan on the anvil of China. The American feeling upon this matter has been largely dictated by American views regarding both British and Japanese actions in China, and it is the interpretation that has been put upon the existing Clause in the Anglo-Japanese Treaty with regard to China by the British Foreign Office and the Japanese Government that is, I believe, the main cause of the difficulties that we see in almost every American newspaper we take up.
Every North American newspaper thinks that Britain and Japan, by the Alliance, have obtained unfair positions for themselves in Chinese markets, spheres of influence, and the like. There is no doubt that sentiment is rife in the United States. All through the length and breadth of the North American continent there is a profound sympathy for the Chinese people. China in her difficulties and struggles and trials has, I believe, aroused very strongly the sentiment of the American people, and do not let us underrate that sentiment. I believe that the future of the Anglo-Japanese Alliance depends in the long run upon the ability of the British Foreign Office and the Japanese Government to go hand in hand, and to really maintain the open door in China with equal opportunities for the trade and commerce of all nations, and with that object the Japanese and ourselves should use a helping hand to assist China back on to her feet again.
The Prime Minister referred to the question of the Navy. Here again he is absolutely right in saying that we in this House should be very careful before we even suggest what the Dominions should do. Above all, he was quite right in saying that one British Dominion might help in one way and another in another way, and that there should be no expression of any desire in this country to impose a hard and fast obligation on them all. Whatever is done, the more freedom, the more latitude and the more variety given to each Dominion to study its own local defence as well as the question of Imperial Naval defence for itself the better. I hope there will be at all times great efforts made to secure a larger amount of common staff work. This is really touching upon a point often raised in this House by the Member for the Fareham Division. If we are really to be prepared for Imperial defence we need a joint thinking out of the problems by military, naval and air experts, not merely by military and naval men and airmen in this country, but by those who have had experience and knowledge of the Dominions in distant parts of the world. The more latitude we have in all matters of naval and military defence, so far as the Dominions are concerned, the better, provided that we can have something in the nature of an Imperial Higher Staff College for all arms. I believe that is absolutely vital. Australian sailors and Australian soldiers should have an opportunity and every encouragement to come here and study these problems and to go through a course of higher training in conjunction with British officers and Indian officers and senior officers of all arms throughout the whole Empire. If we can only get that co-ordination then the more latitude and the more freedom we allow the better.
There is one further question which I am rather surprised did not come up at the Imperial Conference, although I am sure it will come up sooner or later at some Imperial Conference, and that is, the relation of the self-governing Dominions to the enormous responsibilities-with which we in these islands have to bear in the way of administration and civil duties in the Crown Colonies and the rest of the Empire. Unless the Dominions come along and help us in this matter, unless they get some of our experience and some of our traditions, then I can foresee considerable difficulties in the future. I am one of those who rejoice that Samoa is to be administered by New Zealand, and New Guinea by Australia. These two great Dominions will thus have direct experience in the administration of less forward peoples. They will probably make mistakes, such as we made at the start, but I hope that the self-governing Dominions will come along on this question, because I see that the coming problems for the British Empire are enormously complicated by the colour problem, and by the fact that the British Empire is composed of men of every race and every creed, living in every clime, Arctic and tropical. This is no longer an Anglo-Saxon Empire. It contains many races of all kinds, and it is essential that the great British self-governing Dominions should realise that fact and should come along and help us in solving the enormous problems in front of us. Africa has her own immediate local problems, but there are islands scattered all over the world in regard to which the whole burden of responsibility, moral, financial, and otherwise, falls on this island. I hope to see Canada taking more and more interest in the West Indies. I hope to see the Pacific Islands passing closer and closer into the orbit of the self-governing Dominions of Australasia. Then, too, we shall have to face the problem of tropical Africa.
I cannot sit down without saying a word about Egypt. I am glad that nothing has been stated in this Debate calculated to do anything to injure the success of the negotiations which are being conducted. One cannot help having every confidence in the wisdom and statesmanship of the Egyptian Prime Minister, who at the present moment is in this country, and I hope, in the terms of our Prime Minister's speech, for a full recognition of Egypt's national desire for independence, together with a recognition of British Imperial interests. I hope we shall have an early and satisfactory solution of that problem. Let me say quite frankly that during the War I was one of those who hoped that Egypt would see her way voluntarily to come into this great commonwealth of nations, with India and South Africa and the rest of us. But there was no policy ready at the end of the War. Unfortunate things happened and good hopes were driven away. After the Milner Report there can be no going back. The Prime Minister has used the word "independence" this afternoon, and having used that word, let it be perfectly clear that the idea that Egyptians should become British subjects and should be included in the British Commonwealth of nations has, at any rate for the present, gone. Let us be perfectly clear in the Egyptian negotiations, which we all hope will happily turn out with complete success to both parties, because, as Lord Milner says, to be a pro-Egyptian is not necessarily to be anti-British. Let us not forget that Egypt is for the British Empire one of the most important considerations which this House, or any House of Parliament, can possibly discuss. I hope that as soon as we meet again the Government will avail itself of the earliest opportunity of taking the House fully into its confidence with regard to its proposals connected with Egypt, as I think it is right, before the matter is signed, sealed and delivered, the Commons House of Parliament should have an opportunity of expressing its view on any counter-proposals that there may be.
:My hon. Friend having dealt with the question of India, among other nations, my task will consequently be much abbreviated. As an Indian representative in this House, I want to express my very great satisfaction with the manner in which the Prime Minister eulogised the part which India took in the War. The right hon. Gentleman dwelt with satisfaction on the fact that India had provided 1,000,000 out of 2,250,000 of extraneous troops, and it was merely an oversight that, in the course of his long recital, he did not mention that that country had contributed in cash out of its comparatively slender resources no less a sum than £100,000,000 towards the expenses of the War. The attitude of India must be one in which an old Indian Civil Servant like myself takes naturally a great pride. I would also say with what extreme satisfaction I heard the Prime Minister dwell on another aspect which always occurs to myself, but is rarely brought to the notice of this Parliament, and that is the fact that the people of India are a highly civilised people. It is an old civilisation, it is a different civilisation to our own, it is a very high civilisation, and I am not at all certain that if we could get preconceived notions out of our heads it might not be very fairly argued that civilisation which consists of tranquillity and satisfaction with a few wants is a higher form of civilisation than one marked by perpetual dissatisfaction, perpetual increase in wants and needs, which are the outcome of over-civilisation, of a straining after unattainable and over-expensive social reforms, which absolutely transform that civilisation into one perpetual effort to make everything what it is not, and to turn everything upside down and inside out, to the ruin of those who are called upon to provide the funds for that operation. In the East there is none of that. There, is tranquillity, and one has to recognise the fact that they are a highly civilised people who realise that progress may be progress towards a precipice, financial or otherwise, as well as progress towards a higher and more satisfactory state of civilisation. To me it is intensely satisfactory to find, not only that we have got representatives of India over here, but to realise that one of them is a statesman from that part of India which is solely representative of the ancient India, which is agricultural and is redolent of the soil—I mean the Presidency of Madras, and not a city like Bombay, which is so often put forward as representative of India, although it is in no sense representative of it, and has nothing to do with it except the geographical fact that it happens to be situated on the Indian shore of the Arabian Sea. It is an utterly cosmopolitan city, in no way representing the national feelings of India, and of the agriculture of the old world. was delighted to hear the Prime Minister dealing with this subject this afternoon. I should not have dared to have said what I have in this House but for what he said.
I want to say a word about the Anglo-Japanese Alliance, not from the general point of view, but rather to refer to that alliance and its effect, or rather its noneffect, on India, and what it is supposed will be its effect there. The Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs, in answer to a question of mine, very fairly and squarely said that the Anglo-Japanese Alliance had no reference to any assistance which under any conceivable circumstances might be rendered by Japan to the British Empire in regard to any internal difficulties in India. It is as well that that matter should be again mentioned, and I take the earliest opportunity of doing it. The Prime Minister has recited the great obligations under which we rest to that island empire, which in so many respects resembles our own in its relations with neighbouring continents. It is believed in India that there is something in our Treaty with Japan which binds Japan to come in and help us if we have internal difficulties in India, and that feeling has given rise to resentment on the part of the Indian people, who are now arousing themselves, as a strong man from his sleep, and developing that race conscience and national pride which creates this kind of feeling in them. This Treaty has no such stipulation. It has no connection whatever with the internal government of India. It is difficult for the words of an inarticulate Back-Bencher to permeate any part of the world, but I hope that my words will be of some use in spreading, not only the fact that I have pointed this out, but that my hon. Friend, as the accredited representative of the British Government, has confirmed what I say as regards that alliance, and that there is no reason whatever why anyone in India, or anyone with any interest in India, should feel the slightest jealousy or resentment, or, indeed, anything but that gratification and gratitude which everyone should feel towards the part that Japan played in the War. One other question was raised, namely, that of the assistance given by Japan to the British Empire during the War. There is also the question of the assistance given by British possessions to the Empire in respect of the Navy, and I think there is very little appreciation of the extent to which our overseas possessions are dependent for their peace, their prosperity, and their existence upon the British Navy.
:Hear, hear!
:I am glad to hear that the Noble Lady who represents a great naval town is in her place. She can speak for the women of the Empire on this occasion, and there is no one more competent to do so. The immense extent to which our Overseas Possessions are indebted even for their existence to the British Navy, is really but little appreciated by them. India has no Navy, and, although a country which provided 1,000,000 men and £100,000,000 of money for the War need not apologise for the fact that it does not contribute towards the upkeep of the British Navy, it must not be forgotten that the British Navy contributes that peace and prosperity to India which otherwise she would have to ensure by the provision at her own expense of a Navy somewhat equal to our own. It is the British Navy which makes possible the co-existence of all the many parts of this great Empire. Perhaps I might be allowed to quote, in conclusion, some lines which I remember quoting years ago on a. similar occasion. They are very short, but they really touch the whole position which we are discussing to-day. They are the lines of Mr. Watson, I think—still living, happily—
"Time and the ocean and some fostering star,
In high cabal have made us what we are, Who stretch one hand from Huron's bearded pines,
And one on Cashmere's snowy shoulder lay;
And round the streaming of whose raiment shines
The iris of the Australasian spray."
:We all enjoyed the poetic passage with which the hon. Baronet concluded his speech, and he will forgive me if I do not follow him closely in that exercise. I took the liberty of giving notice to the Foreign Office in accordance with the request of the Leader of the House yesterday, that I wished to raise certain topics, and I was rather surprised that the Prime Minister expected me to rise and ask him questions before he gave his very eloquent speech. I should like now to put my questions to the Under Secretary of State, in spite of the fact that one of the topics has been already dealt with by the Prima Minister. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) has left the House, because I cannot quite understand why he should deplore any mention of Egypt, and then should speak for ten or twelve minutes on that subject himself. I had not myself intended to say anything about Egypt, but I would say this: In the first place, the Egyptian situation is extremely important and delicate, but it has not been discussed in this House since 1919. I think that is a very terrible state of affairs, in view of the great issues that hang on the Egyptian situation. I would only say that any settlement come to by the Egyptian Government should certainly have endorsement by a General Election of the Egyptian people. That is perfectly sound, and I do not see how any settlement can be relied upon by these people unless it has been approved of in that way.
My first question is with reference to the trade in munitions of war that is now being permitted to the Greeks and the Turks. In practice, of course, that only means the Greeks, because they have the command of the sea, since we interned or captured the Turkish navy. It has been denied by the Prime Minister that we are supplying armaments as a Government, but we are allowing private individuals to send them. It is put forward as an excuse by the Leader of the House that, in any war, it has always been international custom and law for private firms to be able to trade in munitions with the belligerents. But this is not a new war. This war in Asia Minor is part of the war in which we engaged in 1914, and to permit private firms now to sell munitions to the Greeks—and, of course, if possible, to the Turks, though they will not be able to do so—is, I think, an appalling doctrine for the British Government to bring forward and endorse, as was done by the Prime Minister himself the other day. The Prime Minster has sent a flamboyant message to the Coalition candidate at Caerphilly. I am sorry he has not been able to remain in the House after making his speech. He asks in that message why he is being attacked when he is trying to bring peace to the world. He says:
:And the country, too.
:A bankrupt country will not be of much use if it has all the Dreadnoughts that were ever built. This permission of free trade in armaments is part of the same policy. Super-dreadnoughts are being built by private shipbuilding firms, and the same armament-making ring in this country has had a large part in the agitation that has caused them to be built. They are the people who are going to benefit by the supply of munitions to both sides in this war in Asia Minor. The covenant of the League of Nations in the Treaty of Versailles, signed by these very representatives of the Dominions to whom the Prime Minister has been paying such well-deserved tribute to-day, contains specific pronouncements against the private trade in armaments, and here are we calmly encouraging this obscene traffic with these two belligerents in Asia Minor. I want to ask the Under-Secretary what really is the policy of the Government in this matter. I put a question yesterday to the Leader of the House as to whether the export of poison gas shells would be permitted, and I am happy to say that the reply was that that will not be allowed. We are not going to allow private firms in this country to supply poison gases to the belligerents in Asia Minor. Does it make any difference to a mother, if she loses her son, whether it is by gassing or by being stabbed through the body with a British-made bayonet sold by a Birmingham firm? Is there any difference between this ring sending poison gases and their sending high explosives, the fumes of which are just as deadly? If it is immoral to allow poisonous chemical means of warfare to be used, is it any better to supply the Greeks with machine guns or high explosive shells or aeroplanes? Of course not. The whole thing will not permit of real examination, and I do not believe the people of this country would tolerate it if they were really seized of the facts of the case. I cannot resist saying—
Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted; and 40 Members being present —
6.0 P.M
:I think it is worth while recalling the facts under which we are permitting this supply of munitions to the Greeks. The Turkish Empire was beaten by the British Empire, and largely by the Indian Empireߞby Moslem soldiers. The Greeks kept well out of the fighting until the Armistice was signed, and the Turks had delivered over most of their weapons. I do not want to enter into this matter at large, except in connection with the supply of munitions, but the Prime Minister gave, as a reason for the German retention of Upper Silesia, the fact that Upper Silesia has been German for 700 years. For how long has Smyrna been Turkish? It was taken by the Osmanli before they took Constantinople. If it be just that Silesia be retained by the Germans, it is equally just that Smyrna, in spite of its Greek minority, should be Turkish. This war in which the Greeks are engaged is a war to annex portions of Turkey. We talk of strict neutrality, and of being unable to prevent the belligerents from fighting. Then why are we permitting this private trade in armaments? Some of the men high in the armament-making industry control, as is well known, the shares in armament firms of different countries. One of them had a controlling interest in Krupp's in Germany, and in Vickers' in this country. The trade is altogether immoral. It is worse than the opium trade, and as bad as the white slave traffic, and for us now in 1921, after all that has happened, and after the League of Nations has been set up, to permit traffic in armaments for private gain in this country, which has no part in that war, is an iniquitous policy. The Prime Minister, who, as head of the Government, permits that sort of thing, complains that he is attacked. It is a poor creature who will not attack him on such a ground. I wish to know. the Government's policy as regards this matter and whether in particular the Greeks have been permitted to prohibit trade with Turkey under the pretext of search for contraband, because we are allowed to supply munitions, through our merchants, to them.
The second part is with reference to the Anglo-Japanese Alliance. I am glad we have had some pronouncement from the Prime Minister on this subject. He spoke, rightly, in my opinion, about the new standing of the Dominions towards the question of foreign policy. This House has an equal right to information on these matters, and to a voice in the control of foreign policy. The answer of the Prime Minister to-day by inference makes that very clear, and I make no excuse for asking one or two questions in connection with this Treaty. It is very peculiar that when the Conference met the Law Officers of the Crown stated that unless it was renewed immediately and formally the Alliance would lapse, and apparently when some opposition was shown by certain Dominions, and possibly in this country, that the Lord Chancellor should have discovered, against the views of his own Law Officers, that the Alliance was perfectly safe for another 12 months-Perhaps under all the circumstances the decision to renew it for another 12 months was a good one. It is like the case of the gentleman who was taking a house, and his wife objected because there was no bathroom. He said that was all right; they were only taking it for 12 months. That is very much the case with the Alliance—let it go on for 12 months—but I really think the whole situation should be very carefully reviewed. I protest most emphatically against the idea that because some of us question the renewal of this Alliance we wish, in the words of the Prime Minister and others, to break with Japan. We do not want to break with Japan. We wish to keep on the best of terms. Japan is a fellow member of the League of Nations, and her representatives are playing a distinguished part in its counsels. The last thing we want is to have any sort of quarrel or friction with Japan. The friendship for the Japanese people held by those who think with me is very warm. We stand, in fact, for equality of treatment for the Japanese throughout the world, which is more than some Imperialists do who shout the loudest for the renewal of the Alliance. The Alliance when first formed was formed against Russia. It was then renewed by implication against Germany. Both those Powers have disappeared as a menace to us in the Pacific. Against whom is it to be renewed now? Alliances by their very essence imply an enemy. Who is the enemy here? Furthermore, if the Alliance means that our hands are tied in defending the rights of China, or what is worse, if it is to be used as an excuse for Foreign Office support for predatory concession hunters in China, it is a very serious matter if we are to allow it to be renewed without some protest.
It is not for us to criticise the absorption and the methods used in Korea, but the conduct of the Japanese Government in Korea must and should be taken into full consideration when this Alliance comes up for renewal in 12 months' time. I do not believe any empire or nation will benefit by being allied to an Imperialistic Power. Austria found that, and we shall find to our cost that unless the Alliance carries with it the understanding that Imperialistic projects are not to be undertaken under its shadow, it will do us immense harm. I want to know what is the Government's attitude towards the continued Japanese occupation of areas in Eastern Siberia. It is an important matter. We are trying to live on terms of peace with Russia. With our great Asiatic frontiers to-day in the Middle East it is of great importance that we should be on terms of peace with Russia. Here is our Ally setting up puppet governments in Vladisvostok, and still in forcible occupation of the northern part of the great island of Saghalien. By the Treaty of Portsmouth, following the Russo-Japanese war, the Southern half of that island was ceded to Japan and the northern half remains Russian. It has been seized by Japan with no sort of explanation. They are still in occupation, and they give no sign of vacating the northern part of the island. It is a breach of the Treaty, and it is a matter which cannot be regarded lightly by ourselves, and I should very much like to know whether the Government have addressed any inquiries on this subject, and, if so, what replies have been received, and what is their attitude in the matter? I do not wish to ask the hon. Gentleman to make any pronouncement now which will in any way embarrass the Government. I quite understand his responsibilities, and the notice I have given him is not very long. I make no excuse for putting these questions, because these matters are of great moment to the British people, and I put the questions in that spirit. The Prime Minister's speech was very refreshing in many parts to us on this side of the House, and, of course, glowingly eloquent as ever. I only wish the actions of his Government in all cases followed out the policy laid down by him. Above all, it is no good our simply preaching peace and disarmament here in this House. The real test comes from our policy abroad, and our Estimates for the Army and the Navy. I make my last protest against starting the race again for naval armaments, the Prime Minister's own words that " We must have a Navy equal to any Navy in the world," and the open boasts in the Press of the Admiralty's victory in starting once again a great programme of shipbuilding.
Naval Officers (Marriage Allowances)
:It is not often I have occasion to be grateful to the hon. Baronet the Member for East Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees), but I am grateful to him to-day for having brought the Navy into this Debate. I have been waiting here almost for 24 hours to get in a word on the Navy. I cannot follow the line of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy), but I want to follow one which seems to me of equal importance. I think this is a very good time to talk about the Navy. The Prime Minister has spoken about the Empire and justice and original sin, and every sort of subject; but we know, who are interested in the Navy, that it has had more to do than any single factor in buildup the Empire. I wish once more to bring forward the question of the married officers of the Navy and a few Navy grievances. I will not make any promise about how long I will detain the House, because I have sat patiently waiting while hon. Members who have said, " I will only keep you five minutes," have kept us anywhere from fifteen to twenty. I regret that there are not more Members present to help me to urge the case of the married officer. It is a question for every Member of the House and not only for those who represent naval ports. The Navy is a national thing and it ought to be dealt with nationally. It is almost a disgrace to the House that the case of the Navy is left to a few admirals and weak Members like myself. I am not going to argue the case of the Navy. It was put forward splendidly yesterday by the hon. and gallant Member for Shettleston (Rear-Admiral Adair). The Parliamentary Secretary's reply cannot go unchallenged. It was, from the point of view of the Navy, and therefore of the nation, most unsatisfactory, and I think equally so from the point of view of himself. I know, and all must know, that it is not the fault of the Admiralty. It is the fault of the Treasury that the Navy does not get the justice that it deserves, but I blame the First Sea Lord, and I shall blame the Parliamentary Secretary too, if they do not urge upon the Admiralty to give the officers of the Navy and all ranks justice.
The Parliamentary Secretary described the suggestion of a marriage allowance as a novel principle. I do not know that that is enough to condemn anything. There are many novel principles we have had to put up with in the last five or six years. I myself am a novel principle in the House, and I am endured. I do not think it has been bad for the House that they have had to accept a novel principle. The hon. Gentleman said it was a departure from the good old principle of paying for the value of service rendered. I am all for that, and that is exactly what we are asking for the Navy. If you pay the married officers in the Army and the Air Force more than you do the married officers of the same ranks in the Navy, surely the Navy has a right to ask, Are our services of less value to the State than those of the other fighting forces? That is what they are asking, and they are not asking any more than that. I feel certain if the House realised the state of affairs they would press for it, and so would the nation. I do not believe there is a single hon. Member who would defend the way we are treating married officers in the Navy or would go to his constituency and say we are giving them justice. I know the quibble about the different things the married officer in the Army is getting, but the point is that he is getting enough to support a wife and family, and the naval officer is not.
The Parliamentary Secretary admitted further that certain new factors have arisen since the Navy rates of pay were fixed. If that be true, surely he gives away his whole case. If these new factors have arisen, are they going to be ignored It is very unfortunate for the married officer who has bills to pay and a family to support. He cannot ignore these new factors. It is small comfort to him when he comes to pay his Income Tax to tell him it is a new factor. These are very important questions. Here is a letter from a naval officer's wife, and it is the case of hundreds of them— glad that the Army gets it. We talk about the naval officer taking his wife with him, but he can hardly keep a wife at home, let alone take her abroad. There is no good my telling this to the Parliamentary Secretary or the First Sea Lord, because they know it well enough already, and if the House only knew it, things would be far better for the officers concerned.
There are other questions awaiting a satisfactory reply, but I will not dwell upon them. There is the question of the naval schoolmasters, who are getting from 25 to 53 per cent. less than other naval officers. I suppose this is also a case of payment according to services rendered. The Parliamentary Secretary said that, apart from financial considerations, the matter is complicated. That is all the more reason for getting it settled. He knows, and we all know, that there is nothing more dangerous than having a discontented teaching service, whether in the Navy or on land. If the teacher is discontented, he has the power to fill with discontent the minds of those whom he is called upon to teach. It is vital from the point of view of the Navy and of the whole British nation not to allow people who are teaching to be underpaid and to have a grievance, because they have such wonderful chances of spreading discontent. The hon. and gallant Member for the Shettlestone Division of Glasgow (Kear-Admiral Adair) told us yesterday of the tragedy of the warrant officers without a marriage allowance. It is worse for them that for the others. But though it is hard for all, there are other hardships and obstacles in regard to these officers getting their promotion. The Jerram Committee raised great hopes on the lower deck, and settled many outstanding grievances. There was one grievance, however, which everybody hoped was going to be settled, and that was the question of promotion from the lower deck. Although the Admiralty said that they had a chance of promotion, they know that these men are pretty much where they were. Various technical difficulties are still put in the way of warrant officers who want to avail themselves of accelerated promotion. The biggest obstacle is the medical examination, which is insisted upon in the cases of officers eligible for promotion under this scheme. These officers are from 43 to 45 years of age, with 30 years' service be- hind them. They are asked to pass a stiff professional examination, and afterwards to go through a medical examination. You may say that is all very well, but I would point out that they are the only class of officers who are required to pass this test after long years of service. If a particular physical standard is required for one rank it is not fair not to require it for all ranks. These grievances are felt most strongly, and they cancel some of the small chances for promotion that do exist. It is a small thing, but it is really an important thing. You should not tell them that they are going to get a chance of promotion, and then put small technical things in the way. These things are terribly irritating and they really do exist. One hon. Member said he did not know what chance Members of Parliament would have if they had to go through a medical examination. Sometimes I wish they had to pass a mental examination.
The Parliamentary Secretary has admitted that the marriage allowance question, and other grievances, are disturbing factors, and he has assured us that they are receiving consideration. The Navy is choked with genuine grievances that are receiving consideration. What the Navy likes to see is prompt action. It is very discouraging, month after month, to be told that grievances are receiving consideration. I do not think that the Parliamentary Secretary realises the discontent that there is among the officers of the Navy and also amongst the lower deck men. I admit that the Admiralty have gone a long way to make things better. The Jerram Report did a great many things, but we want the hon. Member to realise, as he would realise if he went to a naval port, that there are other grievances pressing for urgent solution. It is very difficult to realise things at the Admiralty and in the House of Commons, because you do not get the real atmosphere, but you would if you went down to a naval port. Of course, Plymouth is the best. The hon. Member might go to a second-rate port like Portsmouth; but any naval port would suffice. We are told that these things cannot be done on account of economy. I am all for economy, but we cannot economise on the moral of the Navy; we cannot economise on the home life of the Navy, so to speak.
It is very inconsistent for Members of Parliament to talk about the Empire and the great influence of the Navy throughout the world, and not to pay sufficient attention to the moral of the Navy. They ought to fight for what is just as important as big ships. It is easy to talk about big ships in the House of Commons, but not so easy to talk about the moral of the Navy. I maintain, and every man knows it, that home conditions have a Wonderful influence. If a man goes out to fight—and the Navy is always more or less fighting, although it is mainly a service of peace, indeed, it has made the peace of the world, and such peace as we have is greatly dependent on the British Navy—he ought to feel that he has peace and comfort at home, and I do ask that the naval officers should be given peace at home, and at least a chance to have a home.
Land Settlement, Scotland
:It is one of the glories of the House of Commons that it can be suddenly transferred from great Imperial questions to smaller domestic questions. I want to call attention to a question connected with the Western Isles, which is not altogether distinct from the question of the Navy, because most of the men to whom I shall refer are in some way or other connected with the Navy. I want to ask the Secretary for Scotland to endeavour to make the homes of these men who fought for us both in the Navy and in the Army as comfortable as possible, or at any rate, more within the range of the promises we made to them. On the Scottish Estimates we were not able to discuss all the questions which we would have liked to discuss, and some questions have arisen since which deserve the attention of the Secretary for Scotland. If there be any such thing as sweated labour in official life, it is the position of Secretary for Scotland. He is a Cabinet in one, and, without reference to party, we say that there is no more efficient Minister than the right hon. Gentleman, although we have to differ from him at times. He has many urgent duties to perform, but I am sure that if he had sufficient time to devote to them he would adopt every suggestion which I make.
I want to draw attention to the question of land settlement in the islands, which are the most typical crofting area in the whole of the United Kingdom. These islands are entirely composed of crofters and fishermen. Land settlement to these people, whether they have crofts or not, is the most important problem that concerns the comfort of their daily lives. I do not criticise the legislative policy of my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland, because it has been excellent, but it is to the administration of the Land Settlement Act in this particular area, and the cognate Acts in connection with small holdings, that I would refer. This is not a case of men from the city taking small holdings in some particular islands, but it is a case of men who came back from the War, and who have been waiting ever since the Armistice for the fulfilment of the promises made to them that when they got back small holdings would be provided for them as far as possible. The Land Settlement Act laid upon the shoulders of the Board of Agriculture the special duty of providing these small holdings especially for ex-service men.
In the islands of North and South Uist many claims for small holdings have been in not only since immediately before the Armistice, but even before the War. Some claims have been for over six years, and the men thought that they would be settled without delay. Many of these men have no land, and it was their highest ambition when they came back from the War to obtain control of small holdings. In scores of instances in North and South Uist the men thought that when they came back from the War small holdings would be provided for them by the Government. I am glad to say that in some instances small holdings have been provided under the Land Settlement Act, but to the men who have not got these small holdings this partial settlement is no use. There are great numbers of them who have been waiting, sometimes patiently and sometimes impatiently, for years for these small holdings. Unfortunately, they have got it into their heads in many parts of the islands that unless they make some technical breach of the law, and take the law into their own hands, and make what is called a "raid" on the land, they will not get the Board of Agriculture to move. That is a fact, and we must take note of the fact. I do not justify it, but there is a great deal of excuse for it, because, seeing that the Board of Agriculture did make up their minds to provide land settlement in North Uist, why should they have dillydallied all these years, and left these men no other outlet for their energy and no other work to look forward to without being settled on the land, especially when the landlords are willing to come to a settlement?
I refer particularly to the estate of Balranald, in North Uist, in which there has been a number of claims for small holdings for several years. I know for a fact that the landlord is willing to dispose of his land for small holdings, and there is a large number of men who are hungering for that land. Negotiations have been going on for some time between the Board of Agriculture and the landlord. Meantime these men who were hanging on patiently until last winter, when they saw that another spring was going to pass without any settlement, some of them took the law into their own hands to a certain extent. They took possession of a certain part of the land, they manured it, ploughed it, and planted it with crops. I am not going to defend the breaking of the law, but they took this action when for the third year in succession they saw spring approaching without a settlement being arrived at.
Perhaps it will occur to English Members and Members for the South of Scotland that this was a terrible thing to do, but the attitude of the Highland people to the land is absolutely different, owing to the historical relationship of the chiefs and the clans, from the attitude of the English people, and even from that of people in Southern Scotland, although in days gone by there were border robbers even in the South of Scotland. These things must be considered in judging these people. In addition there is the fact that there is no other outlet for their work. There is no industry in these particular islands in which they can engage except fishing and kelp making, and their only hope of a living in the possession of small holdings. It shows a grave dereliction of duty on the part of the Board of Agriculture that they should have taken all this time to make a settlement.
Last April a number of these men were taken before the Sheriff's Court and sentenced for a breach of interdict to imprisonment for 60 days. There is the option of a fine, and they were allowed some time to pay the fine, but these men, having no money to pay the fine, did not pay it, and, some four months afterwards, eight of them were arrested last week and sent to gaol in Inverness to undergo their sentence. To show how public opinion regards these matters, I may mention that when they arrived at Inverness they were greeted by an enthusiastic crowd there and cheered. The people of Inverness are the most law-abiding people in the world, just as the people of the Highlands, generally speaking, are the most law-abiding people in the world, and they would not give an expression of sympathy if they interpreted the action taken as a breach of the law, and what happened shows that the Government in putting these men into gaol had not public opinion behind them, because I have had various letters from the North of Scotland and from the South protesting against the imprisonment of these men.
I asked a question on the subject last Tuesday, and I was not wholly dissatisfied by the answer given by the Secretary for Scotland. I should mention that two of these men were undergoing military training when they were arrested. These are men who are ready to take a share in the defence of their country and in preparation for the defence of their country in time of peace. My right hon. Friend said that if these men undertook to observe the interdict to keep off these lands he would be willing to use his good offices with the Court in order to have these men released. These men have on three occasions come off the land in the hope that the Board of Agriculture will come to a settlement with the landlord. So far as I know, up till now no settlement has been reached. Several weeks ago I asked the right hon. Gentleman a queetion, and he told me that proposals were before the treasury with regard to this particular land, and I should have thought that by this time the Treasury would have given a decision and the Board of Agriculture would have started to lay out the small holdings on that estate. So far as I know, that has not yet been done. I do hope my right hon. Friend will make it easy for these men to obey the law. They did not break the law for mere fun. They broke the law to call attention to their grievance, and because they thought that this was the only way of hurrying up the Board of Agriculture. If the men were given to understand that their claims to small holdings will not be prejudiced, and that another winter and spring would not pass without Some settlement being made, I am sure that it would be easy to induce them not to commit any technical or real breach of the law in future as regards these lands.
There is another point. These men laid down crops. I do not think that the landlord objected. I hope they will be allowed to gather in these crops, so that the produce will not be lost, because they depend on it for the winter. I feel a little uncomfortable about this matter because people may think that I am supporting men who broke the law, but if the House takes all the circumstances into consideration they will admit that while we cannot justify a breach of the law there is something to be said in explanation of it in this particular case. I hope that my right hon. Friend, with the insight which he has into the particular conditions there, will not be too much trammelled by his legal training—usually he is not—and will do his best to make it easy for these men to observe the law. I have been in communication with these men, and I have seen their legal advisers, and if there is any reasonable hope of a settlement in the near future, these men will be easily induced to observe the law.
There is another point with regard to the question of the crofter housing scheme under the Board of Agriculture and the Board of Health. I was glad that my right hon. Friend said the other day that he had salved this bit from the wreckage of the housing scheme, and when the Prime Minister returns from his holidays in the Highlands, where he will learn the conditions which exist there, I am sure that he will come back full of the enthusiasm for the Highlanders as he has always shown himself to be for his fellow Welshmen. I hope he will be benefited by his sojourn in one of the finest health resorts of the world. The Secretary for Scotland cannot be expected to be acquainted with all the details, even of his own housing scheme. I drew attention recently to the fact that the housing scheme in the island of Lewis was being killed. In that island we have a special problem. Every crofter lives upon his croft, and generally another married member of his family either lives in the same house with him or in another house on the croft. I am aware that it is a breach of the law to have two houses on one croft. If the Board of Health had complete control of housing schemes in the Highlands, we would have had far more houses long ago. It is the Board of Agriculture which, by strangling rules and regulations, is blocking the way. The Housing Commissioner stated in his Report that in the island of Lewis 3,000 to 4,000 new houses were required. Up to the present time the Board of Agriculture and the Board of Health have certified only 13 houses, a most unlucky number for the island. It does not touch the fringe of the problem.
The Board of Agriculture will not allow a house to be built on a croft if there is already a house upon it. When the Housing Acts were passed they were passed to solve the housing problem and not to solve the agricultural problem. If the Board of Agriculture think that they can make the crofters evict the cotters, they do not know the Lewis people. They are mistaken in thinking that a crofter will evict his son and send him out on to the moors with no place in which to live. It is by these methods that the Board of Agriculture are ruining the good intentions of the Secretary for Scotland. Because of the housing difficulty consumption is rife in the islands. I hope therefore, that my right hon. Friend will do something in order to expedite the provision of houses. Instead of searching Acts of Parliament in order to discover restriction which they can put upon house building, the Board of Agriculture should imitate the example of Nelson and apply a blind eye to obscure parts of our legislation. There is one other subject to which I must refer. The island of Raasay was cleared of men and converted into a farm but the island of Rona was so overcrowded with people that they asked for land on the island of Raasay. They did not get it and they found that the only way to satisfy their demand was to take the land. I believe that they are now being hunted like deer in the mountains. They are really law-abiding people and most gentlemanly fellows who would not hurt a fly. I hope the Secretary for Scotland will include this among the subjects calling for his special attention.
:The highlands of Scotland, I am sure, will be grateful to my hon. Friend for the able way in which he has submitted his case to the House. In the earlier part of his speech my hon. Friend referred to certain seizures of land in his constituency, due to the failure of the Board of Agriculture to provide small holdings. It would be a pity if the House got the impression that it was only in the highlands that the Board of Agriculture have failed in providing small holdings for ex-service men and others. No one would accuse my hon. Friend of attempting to justify these seizures of land, and it is eminently necessary that those who have been interested in the development of the small holdings movement should in the strongest possible terms deprecate any breaking of the law such as that which has taken place. As the Secretary for Scotland knows, there are thousands of men who have been waiting the last two years, not only in the highlands but throughout Scotland, for the small holding which, rightly or wrongly, they were led to expect they would get. Any justification, and condonation on the part of any hon. Member or person in a responsible position of the seizure of land by these applicants would inevitably lead to seizures throughout Scotland on a very large scale. That, of course, does not relieve the Secretary for Scotland and the responsible administrative bodies under him of the responsibility for providing the small holdings as fast as possible. I hope that the changes which are to be brought about in the administration of the Board of Agriculture will facilitate and hasten the administration of the Small Holdings Department and lead to land settlement at a. much quicker pace.
May I again emphasise a matter, to which I drew attention on the Scottish Estimates? That is the question of the provision of credit facilities for smallholders. I am convinced that one of the most useful adjuncts to the development of the small-holding movement in Scotland will be provision for credit facilities. I again suggest that the method by which the right hon. Gentleman proposes to provide these facilities is not one that will bring the smallholder into the movement. I understand the Secretary for Scotland has not received notice that I would raise this question to-night, so I shall not ask specific questions. When my right hon. Friend comes to consider the matter during the autumn I hope that in any arrangement he may make, from the earliest stage he will bring smallholders into the movement in order to induce the smallholder to provide his own money, and that the right hon. Gentleman will avail himself of private enterprise, which has already moved in that direction.
7.0 P.M.
It would not be in order to refer to the legislation with regard to agriculture which the Government has passed or has repealed during the last two years. The Scottish farmer has been tossed from pillar to post to such an extent by the legislative gymnastics of the Government that he does not know now where he stands or what he is to expect. He finds it very difficult indeed to puzzle through the various Acts of Parliament and documents with which he is concerned. I have asked the Minister for Agriculture whether he would take steps to bring together into one volume all the Acts of Parliament that now affect the Scottish agriculturists. I mention that now in the hope that the Secretary for Scotland will bring as much weight as possible to bear on his colleagues in order to achieve that result. It really is very difficult for the farmers to follow these things with any coherence, and one of the greatest benefits which could be conferred upon Scottish agriculturists would be now to leave them alone as far as legislation is concerned, but to give them something in the nature of a document which would allow them thoroughly to examine any legal point which might arise. I hope my right hon. Friend will bear that in mind and press it on his colleague the Minister for Agriculture.
:My hon. and gallant Friend who has just sat down made certain observations in the early part of his speech with regard to land raiding, for which I am obliged, and I should like to commend to all those who are concerned in this matter the wise and weighty words which he used. He asked me a question with regard to credit facilities. I am much obliged to him for his courtesy in the matter, for the note which, I understand, he sent me has never reached me. Otherwise I would have given him a full reply. I can say, however, that I will personally look into the matter and see that it is reconsidered, with a view, if possible, of bringing into the enterprise the smallholder in whom he is interested and whose advice and assistance, I quite agree, would be most valuable. So far as the codification of agricultural law is concerned, I am entirely in accord with the proposal which he has made. I shall take an early opportunity of conferring with the Minister of Agriculture to see whether, in the interval between the present Session and the next, anything can be done in the way of securing codification in the realm of agriculture, such as has been already secured, with great advantage, in the realm of education. I quite agree with the desirability of this step, but it is a somewhat difficult matter. If my memory serves me right, it was raised in another place quite recently. I then gave an undertaking, through the representative of the Scottish Office there, to look into it. I shall certainly do so, with a view, if possible, to meeting my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion.
My hon. Friend the Member for the Western Isles (Dr. Murray) made a somewhat longer speech than the hon. and gallant Gentleman. The early part was moderate, friendly, and even appreciative, and I am very grateful to him for what he said. I do not think he quite maintained that standard throughout, however, and I think his speech fell off in that respect as he went along. First of all, he dealt with the broad question of land settlement in the western islands. No one is more fully alive to the urgency of that question than am I and the Board of Agriculture. If my hon. Friend had given me fuller notice of the precise point he was going to raise I could have given him a fuller reply.
:I apologise for not having done so. I thought I had given notice about it the night before last.
:I am not complaining about it. Sometimes my hon. Friends from Scotland do seem to forget that I am here, and that the Board, that I control are in Edinburgh, and that therefore it is a little difficult to get as much information at short as an English Minister can get at a few hours' notice from his office in London. With regard to the land settlement in the Western Isles generally, a great deal has been done. In the Island of Lewis, by arrangement with Lord Leverhulme, a settlement on five farms is now proceeding. Lord Leverhulme is on the spot now, and I hope for great benefit from the visit which he is paying. Sir Arthur Rose, who is Director of Land Settlement, and in whom every Scottish Member has complete confidence, has devoted a great deal of time and attention to this particular question in the West of Scotland, recognising that while the demand is clamant in other parts that is probably the part in which it is most urgent. That point of view has certainly not been neglected.
I turn to what my hon. Friend, by a meiosis, called a. "technical breach of the law." He called the raiding of a farm belonging to someone else a "technical breach" of the law. He went on to say, and I regret to hear it, that it was believed that the only way in which these men could call the attention of the Board of Agriculture—in other words, myself—to their claims and demands was by illegally raiding property, namely, farms which did not belong to them. I take the earliest opportunity of saying that if that belief is entertained in any quarter it is a profound delusion, and the men concerned who entertain that belief will find that, so far from calling attention to their case and securing a settlement they will be disentitled, by the very action to which my hon. Friend has referred, from an early settlement on the land they have seized. We know perfectly well that there are thousands of men waiting for land to-day in Scotland, and there is not enough land to go round. The result of giving a preference to the men who raid land would be most lamentable. It would penalise the men who have waited patiently and constitutionally for a period of years, refusing to break the law, determined to do their duty as citizens, and content to wait. Is it really to be suggested by my hon. Friend that I or the Board of Agriculture should pay more attention to the men who break the law than to the men who keep the law?
:I never said that.
:My hon. Friend said the belief was entertained. I want him to assist me in dispelling any such illusion. I assure him, and the House and the country that it is a great delusion. The sooner anyone who entertains that belief gets it out of his mind the better for him and for the peace of Scotland. The hon. Member went on to speak about Balranald, and the raiding of the farm there. I have not had time to look into the matter from its earliest beginnings, but my recollection which is quite distinct is this. The farm at Balranald is not the property of a large landowner. It is the property of a man who farms it himself and lives on the farm, and in whose family the farm has been for generations. When it was put to me, as it was first of all, that this property should be taken compulsorily under the Small Landholders Act, 1911, I refused to give that permission. I did not think it was a fair thing, in defiance of the wishes of the man who lived on that farm all his life, and who was working on it as a farmer, to deprive him by compulsion of the little bit of land on which he was working, and which he refused to leave. Since that time, however, some progress has been made in the direction of negotiations. Again, speaking from recollection, the negotiations are proceeding favourably, and I hope that before long terms of purchase will be arranged in regard to that farm by mutual assent between the landlord and the Board of Agriculture.
In the meantime, while those terms are being arranged the land has been illegally seized. To the men who seized it the utmost leniency has been shown. They were sentenced months ago—my hon. Friend said it was in April, and probably he is right—to imprisonment. The sentence was only carried out last week, and in the meantime they have had the fullest opportunity of paying the comparatively small fines imposed. They have refused, or neglected to do so, and it was only after it became perfectly plain that either the law must be vindicated or allowed to be broken with impunity that these steps were taken. No one regrets more than I that these men have gone to prison. The hon. Gentleman was quite wrong in speaking about an enthusiastic crowd at Inverness. I have investigated that, and have heard from Inverness that that suggestion is quite wrong. My hon. Friend has been in touch with these people. I would ask him, quite frankly and definitely, can he give me an assurance that these men, if the Court should see fit to release them, will give a promise that they will obey the interdict that has been pronounced by a competent Court against them? He may not be in a position to answer that to-night, but I can assure him and his hon. Friend who is interested in this case that, short of any such promise, it will be exceedingly difficult to make any arrangement for the release of these men. On the other hand, if they give that promise—it is a reasonable promise which would be given by any law-abiding citizen—then I do not at all despair of the Court taking such a view as will result in their early release.
I say this with all the more confidence, because I remember that that also happened n the case of the Vatersay crofters. I appeared for them as counsel, being at the time a member of the Scottish Bar. They, on my suggestion, gave an undertaking that they would obey the interdict, whereupon the case was taken to Court, and the Court released them. That is what I meant when I said, in answer to my hon. Friend's question on Tuesday, that I should be glad if he would put me in a position to bring such an undertaking to the notice of the Sheriff for his consideration. If it were given I should at once feel it my duty to bring that undertaking to the notice of the Sheriff, then it would be for him and not for me to decide whether or not these men should be released.
:May I say, first of all, that the trouble about these men is in respect to their crops which are already on this land. Has any arrangement been made which will guarantee these men the salvation of their crops if they give such an undertaking?
:I think that would be difficult. I do not close the door, but I cannot conceal from myself that it is a very difficult proposition to affirm that men who have illegally seized land, and illegally planted crops on that land, should, as part of their release, be entitled to reap and to pocket the proceeds of what they have illegally done. That is what my hon. Friend's proposition amounts to. I do not say it is impossible, because I am exceedingly anxious to reach some kind of amicable arrange- ment on this matter. It is difficult, but the point will be borne in mind. I wish to impress on both my hon. Friends that they ought to look to the Courts rather than to me for the release of these men, if they are to be released. I pointed out to my hon. Friend in private, and I want to do so in public, the difficulty of releasing men at the instance of the Secretary for Scotland, or of the Home Secretary, in England, men who are not in prison for any breach of the ordinary criminal law, say, for theft or arson or any Common Law crime, but for contempt of Court. These men have been imprisoned by the Court, in vindication of the Court's dignity and right to maintain its authority. If I were to release these men I should immediately provoke a direct conflict between the Judiciary and the Executive. I know of no case in my recollection where, after a sentence for contempt of Court has been pronounced, either in England or in Scotland, the men in question have been released by the Minister who is responsible. My point in saying that to the hon. Member is to emphasise, if I may, the imperative necessity of an undertaking on the lines I have suggested being given. Then, when the undertaking has been given and an appeal has been made to the Court—and I should make it my duty to see that the appeal reached the Court—the Court would say whether or not its dignity had been sufficiently vindicated and the men could be allowed to go free.
With regard to the question of crofter housing. I was unaware the hon. Gentleman was going to raise this matter. When he says that the Board of Agriculture is blocking the way, he is making a statement without any foundation at all. When he says the Board is obstructing the Ministry of Health, he is again mistaken. These two Departments have worked together throughout with the greatest harmony and with only one aim, namely, the benefit of the health of these people. I am sorry the hon. Gentleman is so ungrateful to the Board of Agriculture, and that he allowed himself to make such statements without any warrant at all. This scheme is really devised for the benefit of his constituents, and the people in the West of Scotland generally. He says that only 13 certificates have been granted. When I spoke on the Estimates, at this Box, three weeks ago, 57 certificates had been granted.
:Are you speaking generally?
:I am speaking generally, and I am quite sure my hon Friend is mistaken even if his reference is only with regard to the Island of Lewis.
:They are official figures.
:I think my hon. Friend is wrong. We will not quarrel, however, about particular figures. He may accept the assurance that this scheme, for which he expressed profound gratitude three weeks ago, but at which he is rather inclined to cavil to-day, has been devised for the benefit of the crofters in the West of Scotland. I hope, instead of endeavouring to crab and criticise the scheme, he will give it the benefit of his assistance and endeavour to secure the result which we all desire, namely, that better housing conditions for Scotland will be achieved at an early date. I have endeavoured, as briefly as possible, to deal with the various points raised, and if I have omitted any, I shall endeavour to deal with them later.
5th Royal Irish Lancers
:I desire to raise the question of the disbandment of the 5th Royal Irish Lancers. Earlier in the year the Secretary of State for War announced that four cavalry regiments were to be disbanded. With that I am not quarrelling. My point, put in the shortest space, is that the principle upon which the Secretary for War decided to select regiments for disbandment was that the four junior cavalry regiments should be selected, and that the 5th Royal Irish Lancers is not one of the four junior cavalry regiments, but so far from that, Is, in point of fact, the senior Lancer regiment of the service. That is my case in a few words. I quite understand that when the Secretary for War came to the decision to disband these regiments, he had a very difficult task in selecting which regiments should be disbanded. All our cavalry regiments had glorious records in the recent War, and in all other wars in which they took part. Therefore he had to fix upon some principle which would make the selection of some four regiments reasonable, and the principle at which he arrived was that the four junior regiments in the service should be disbanded. Let me first make good my point as to that being the principle on which he decided to act. On the 15th of March of this year the Secretary of State for War stated in the House of Commons: Queen, by the Commander-in-Chief of the day, cancelling the disbandment of the 5th Lancers in 1799 and ordering them to be re-embodied—not to be re-raised, mark you—but to be re-embodied and to be restored to their old place among the cavalry of the line. That Order is a very remarkable one and with the permission of the House I will read it. It is a General Order and as such was circulated among all units in the British Army. It is dated 9th January, 1858, from the Horse Guards and is in these terms:
As regards the 18th Hussars, their record is this: they were raised in Dro-gheda. in the year 1762, as the 18th Light Dragoons; in the year 1822, after 60 years, they were disbanded, and in the year 1858 they were re-raised—not re-embodied under special command of the Queen like the 5th Lancers. Furthermore they were re-raised, at a date subsequent to the date on which the 5th Lancers were embodied, namely, 23rd February, 1858. The House will remember that I said the 5th lancers were re-embodied on the 3rd February, 1858, so that looking only at the events of 1858, and disregarding the matter of the Queen's command, you find that the 5th Lancers, on this ground only, are three weeks senior to the 18th Hussars. Therefore upon the bare and undisputed facts there can be no question as to the seniority of the 5th Royal Irish Lancers. The answer made by the Secretary for War to this case is very curious. I cannot help thinking that when the decision was arrived at to disband this illustrious Irish regiment, the whole facts cannot have been known to the War Office. The reason given by the Secretary for War is that it would disturb the link system if you were to disband three Hussar regiments and only one Lancer regiment. That is the only answer given either by the Secretary for War here, or by Viscount Peel in another place. That answer is absolutely inconsistent with the principle laid down by the Secretary for War and re-affirmed by Lord Peel. Furthermore, there is nothing in the point. It is perfectly easy to get over the difficulty by turning the 5th Lancers into a Hussar regiment and linking them with the 10th Hussars, with whom the 18th Hussars are now linked. There is another way. You might turn some Hussar regiment into a Lancer regiment, and link it up with the 5th Lancers. As the House knows, the training of Hussar and Lancer regiments is exactly the same. They are both trained to the sword and the lance, and the only difference is, in practice, that the Lancer carries a lance and the Hussar does not.
I beg the War Office not to allow this gallant regiment to suffer a real injustice. Disbandment has not begun yet, and the regiment is still in existence, and in unging the Secretary of State to reconsider his decision even now, I would recall to his mind and to the mind of the House the great and distinguished record of services which the 5th Lancers, under them former title of the 5th Royal Irish Dragoons and under their present title of the 5th Lancers, have rendered to the State. During the recent War they were the last regiment to leave Mons on the retreat from Mons, and they were the first cavalry regiment to enter Mons when we drove the Germans back and made our great advance. More than that, during the War they were one of those cavalry regiments which were specially selected for service in the trenches, and they did great and valiant service in the trenches, for which they were specially praised by Lord French. Do not let us forget either that amongst the distinguished officers of the 5th Lancers are many men who during the War were promoted to high commands, and they include Field-Marshal Lord Allenby, while they have got three or four Brigadier-Generals, and, if my information is correct, they were the only cavalry regiment which won the Victoria Cross during the War. In any case, they won a Victoria Cross, and if I am wrong in saying they were the only cavalry regiment to do so, I withdraw it. I urge the Secretary of State to reconsider the matter. It may be said it is brought up rather late, but it would have been raised on the Army-Estimates some time ago if the House had ever been given an opportunity of considering the Army Estimates. I quite agree that that was not the fault of the Secretary of State, and I only mention it to show that it is not the fault of those who are urging the case of this regiment.
:I have already addressed this House on this subject, and I only want to say a few words on the question of the 5th Lancers and to supplement what my hon. and learned Friend has just said, and I hope to base my case on some fresh grounds, if I can. We never take "No" for an answer. The Secretary of State for War has disobeyed a General Order which was issued in 1858 stating that the 5th Lancers were to be reinstated as the senior Lancer regiment in the Service, and I would ask the hon. Gentleman who represents the War Office to realise why the 5th Lancers are the senior Lancer regiment in the Service. They are only called the junior Lancer Regiment because they mutinied in 1799 during the Irish Rebellion. They did not actually mutiny, but only 70 men, a mere detachment of troops, and the result was that the 5th Lancers were disbanded, and not till 1858 were they reinstated. You are going in Ireland now to forgive and forget and to let bygones be bygones, and are you really going to scrap the 5th Lancers, to chuck them on the dung heap? Remember that they are the only Irish Lancer Regiment you have got. You are making up to Sinn Feiners, who commit murders and outrages, and you will be making a great mistake if you do away with these 5th Lancers.
I want to make a suggestion. It is no good talking about the 18th Hussars and the 5th Lancers, and all the rest, and asking what regiments you are going to disband and what you are not. The Irish are getting their Parliaments very soon; I assure you they are going to have them in the next few months. I do think all this tommy rot which is talked by De Valera in Dublin is not worth a damn. What are these men doing in Dublin? They say, "We this" and "We that," but who are the "we"? They are only the people who returned them to represent Ireland as a Republic, and it is all politics over there now, but in the next few months you will get the majority of the Irish people agreeing to have union between the two countries on Dominion lines, and with the really generous government which this country is giving to Ireland, you will have union in the next six months. Then ask those Governments in Ireland, the South and the North, if they will have the 5th Lancers, the only Irish Lancer regiment in the Service, as their regiment. It will be yet another link to strengthen the union between England and Ireland. The Irish people will say, "You are going to get rid of this regiment because it is not useful, but it will be useful to us, and useful for service for the Empire when the occasion arises." They love the 5th Lancers, and if you put this regiment in Dublin, and put them on guard in Dublin, and let the officers be riding over to Punchestown, and make them the Irish Lancer Regiment, you will be doing a fine thing. You have your Greys in Scotland, you have your Lifeguards in London, then keep your 5th Lancers in Ireland.
:The Secretary of State for War wishes me to convey his apologies for not being present, but as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for York (Sir J. Butcher) knows, he was not aware that this question was going to be raised till a very short time ago; he has had a great deal of work, and he has a considerable amount still to do, and so he is unable to be present to-night. This question, as my hon. and learned Friend said, was first raised when the Army Estimates, not in the detailed form, were introduced in this House, and it was then stated that the 5th Lancers, the 19th and 20th Hussars, and the 21st Lancers were the four regiments which had been selected for disbandonment. Shortly after that, the question was again raised by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Harborough (Sir K. Fraser), and there was a discussion of some hours' length on this topic. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State then made perfectly clear the reasons why two Lancer regiments and two Hussar regiments were being disbanded. He pointed out—and I think it is un-controvertible—that you would upset the-whole symmetry if you took away three-Hussar regiments and one Lancer regiment. My hon. and learned Friend says. why not turn one of these Hussar regiments into a Lancer regiment and disband that, but I really would point out that that is not quite a fair way of putting it. You would be going then to take a very distinguished regiment, the 18th Hussars, which, I think it may safely be said, has just as distinguished a record in the last few years as the 5th Lancers, and to turn it into a Lancer regiment merely in order to disband it.
I do not agree that that is a fair way of looking at it. My hon. and learned Friend gave a long historical record of the 5th Lancers, and he also mentioned that Viscount Peel in another place had said it was the regiment with the least period of continuous service. My hon. and learned Friend wishes us to cut out entirely the 60 years during which "they were not on the Army List, and he claims that they were restored to their former position. If I may take another point of which I have personal experience, I will mention the Horse Artillery. Batteries of Horse Artillery are occasionally, for motives of economy, reduced and afterwards reinstated. I have myself been in one Horse Artillery battery that was revived, and we were told to take on all the previous record of the battery that had been disbanded; but we did not in this way claim to be the senior Artillery battery in the Army. We took our place as from the date on which we were raised again, and I cannot agree with my hon. and learned Friend when he makes out that the 5th Lancers are really the senior Lancer regiment in the Army.
:May I ask whether in the case of the battery my hon. and gallant Friend mentions there was a special command of the Sovereign saying that in that case the battery was to be restored to its original position, and the order disbanding it to be cancelled?
:No, but we were told to take on all the previous record of the battery that had been disbanded. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State distinctly stated, in reply to my hon. and gallant Friend who raised this question some months ago, the reasons why it had been decided that these four regiments should be disbanded. The question was raised then, and, if I may say so, it was of some use, because at that time the orders had not been definitely brought forward for the disbandment of these regiments. Now the order has been issued that these regiments are to be disbanded. The officers have been told exactly on what lines they are going to be treated. It is the desire of the War Office to treat them as fairly and generously as possible. The order has gone forth that these four regiments will be disbanded, and, in these circumstances, I can hold out no hope that the. policy will be reversed.
Ex-Service Teachers
:Although I am exceedingly reluctant to detain the House for a few moments at this period of the Session, yet I feel bound to invite their attention to a serious grievance experienced by a substantial group of ex-service men, and I am sure that the desire to redress the grievances of any of our gallant soldiers is ample excuse for detaining the House for a few moments. The position is this. The school teacher, in preparing for the profession, undergoes a period of training for several years. That usually includes a couple of years in a training college. When he has satisfied the Board of Education that he possesses the necessary academics and professional competence, he is granted a certificate, and from that date he is known as a certificated teacher. It is necessary to mention that fact, because the whole gravamen of my charge against the Government turns upon this stage at which a man becames a certificated teacher. When the War broke out, a very large number of certificated teachers of the country in elementary and secondary schools at once joined up. Many of them were in Territorial battalions. They were mobilised, and marched off. Others, enthusiastically patriotic, joined up without hesitation. The House recognised almost immediately that the years which they would spend in the Army would be withdrawn from their years of scholastic service, and this House straight away passed an Act whereby the whole of the privileges which teachers secured under their Superannuation Act should be preserved during their period of War service, or, to put it in other words, War service was to count, for scholastic purposes, for superannuation in the case of every man who had quitted the schools and gone into the Army.
At the same date there were a number of young men going through their training for the profession. They had not at that moment actually secured their certificates. Some of them had spent one year in the training college. The young men of the training college, where I was some 45 years ago, on the outbreak of war, all marched out, and took their part. They served in France, and afterwards in Salonika, and they did good work. They had not secured their certificates. They had been for one year in the training college. They were assured on all hands, just as assurances were given to other young men who enlisted, that their patriotism should put them at no disadvantage, that in serving their country they would not be forgotten by their country afterwards. They served. They were demobilised, and able to return to the schools in 1919. They had left the training college in 1914. Five years were spent in the Army. Those five years have been lost for the purposes of superannuation. Let me carry it a stage further. There were other men in the colleges at the same time. There were the laggards who said they would wait till they were fetched. There were the cowards, who said they would not go at all, because their consciences would not allow them. They remained, and secured the certificate at the end of the next year. If they were compelled to join the Army under conscription, they have not lost a single hour of their superannuation benefit. The laggard, therefore, is in a better position than the young patriot. The coward has preserved all his interests under the Superannuation Act.
I say that is a grievance under which these men ought not to be allowed to remain. It ought to be removed. I drew the attention of the President of the Board of Education to this matter on the Third Reading of the Appropriation Bill in 1919, and I am bound to say that he treated it then much more lightly than I think the case deserved. He said that in all Superannuation Acts of this category there are always people on the boundary line, and who fall just without the zone of treatment; that this would demand modification of the Act, and he was not prepared to produce an amending Act in that Session. We met in the autumn of the year; 1919 has passed; 1920 has passed; and the Session of 1921 is drawing to its close. Nothing has been done to remove the grievance of these men. But much worse has followed. In the intervening period a national Committee has been dealing with the question of teachers' salaries. It is a national agreement, entered into by the employers and the teachers, that is, the local education authorities and the teachers themselves, speaking for the whole profession. This agreement contains Clauses to the effect that every certificated teacher shall be placed upon a scale of salaries in accordance with the number of his years of service as a certificated teacher. What does that mean? It means that the man who was not certificated when the War broke out, and who went into the Army and was there for five years, has lost five years in that scale of salaries. That is, he has lost £62 10s., and suffers that loss annually and, unless something is done, he will continue to suffer that loss. The laggard?who remained is certificated from 1915. The coward is certificated from 1915. He gets the full benefit of the scale of salaries. The young and enthusiastic patriot who went in the Army has lost his superannuation right for the four or five years, and he has lost his salary scale right for four or five years.
My right hon. Friend may tell me that in this agreement there is a Clause which will empower local authorities to make additional payment, but that Clause would be stretched to the very utmost to include these people. The Clause simply says that, where women are employed in extra responsible duties, or certain teachers have particular qualifications, the local authority may give them additional payment, and they may also make additional payment for similar reasons. I do not know whether five years' service in France and Salonika is a similar ground or a similar reason to the service of a woman in an extra responsible position in the school. I should have thought the conditions were very dissimilar indeed, and that if anyone were entitled to be safeguarded it was the man who served abroad. I may say it is the practice of local authorities, very often in making promotions, to have regard to seniority. It is quite right that it should be so. Now, these men who served, and have come back to their schools covered with credit, and very often covered with wounds also, have lost the whole of that period of seniority, and some of them stand in the schools to-day with younger men passing over their heads, drawing the salary they ought to be receiving, and the Government does nothing to help them. It will not even send out a sympathetic message to them that this is a case which calls for redress, and will be attended to at the first opportunity in Parliament. I feel absolutely certain that if the Members of this House knew the position they would insist on redress being given to this grievance. It is one of those cases which cannot be disputed. No one would think for an instant that the patriotic young English teacher ought to lose anything as the result of his patriotism, and many of these did splendid service in the Army. The fact that they have more than a general average of education, and were accustomed to organise and command as a part of their early training, led to large numbers of them being appointed to noncommissioned rank, where they did splendid work; a number of them secured promotion on the battlefield for bravery, gaining commissions. They have gone back to these schools under these conditions.
I said a moment ago that I trespassed on the patience of the House with very great reluctance. I know that I ought to have brought this question forward yes- terday, if I had had regard to constitutional practice, because yesterday we took the last stage in the granting of moneys to the Crown, and it is part of the constitutional practice in this House that you should get a redress of grievances before granting supplies; but I was unable to get an opportunity of putting myself within constitutional practice. I am, therefore, driven to ask the representative of the Board of Education to deal with this matter at once. I would merely add this. These men are now training the youths in our schools. They feel that their country has forsaken them, and that their interests are not being safeguarded by the Government whom they serve. What influence is that going to exercise upon boys under their care? A discontented teacher, the young patriot? whose enthusiasm has been broken, the man who served, and who now apparently is forgotten—that is not going to have a wholesome influence on the lives of the children they are engaged in teaching. Therefore, altogether apart from the interests of the men, in the interests of the youngsters they are teaching, I demand a redress of this grievance.
8.0 P.M.
I wish the Secretary of State for War were in his place. I said at the beginning of my few remarks that many of these young men were members of the Territorial Force. It is the custom in many of these training colleges to have one or two companies in the nearest Territorial battalion, formed entirely of students in the college. I had a letter the other day from the principal of one of the large training colleges in London saying he could not now get his young men to join the Territorial Force. They retort, "Our predecessors have been betrayed, and we are not going to join until that grievance has been removed." Therefore, it is exerting an injurious influence upon recruiting for the Territorial Force in the colleges. But, leaving the Army question on one side, and thinking only of the interests of the youngsters, whom I desire to see trained to follow the example which the teachers set them, so that whenever the nation calls them they shall go without hesitation, feeling perfectly certain that the nation will look after their interests when they return, that feeling will never be spread throughout the schools until the men who have already served have had their injustice removed. I put this to my hon. Friend, who, I hope, will reply. Let him not forget that these men went into the Valley of the Shadow of Death. They saved their honour, and they helped to save the honour of our country. I ask the President of the Board of Education to safeguard his honour in this matter, and to safeguard the honour of the Government of which he is a, Member. I can assure him, that in the eyes of hundreds of these young men and their friends, there will remain a deep stain on the honour of the Government unless this grievance is removed.
:The House has, I feel sure, listened with deep interest to the case which has been raised by my hon. and gallant Friend on behalf of the ex-service men, in whom, as we all know, he takes so deep an interest. I believe every man in the House will agree with him as to the patriotism and self-abnegation which a very large number of the members of the teaching profession showed at the time their country was in danger. We are particularly indebted to the men who enlisted voluntarily at an early period of the War. I am glad to say that I am in a position to give assurances to my hon. and gallant Friend which will go far to remove the grievance of which he complains. I think it should be borne in mind that the teachers who entered military service have had training grants given to them.
:Only a comparatively few!
:I am now in a position to say that the Board of Education, who have received numerous inquiries from the local education authorities as to the extent to which they will be prepared to recognise for grant purposes the counting of War service with His Majesty's Forces during the War in the calculation of the salaries of men teachers in public elementary schools under the standard scales recommended by the Standing Joint Committee, are prepared immediately to take action. Secondly, in answer to a question in the House of Commons on the 21st July, it will be remembered that the President of the Board stated that service during the War with the forces of the Crown by men who were already teachers at the time of joining the forces should be treated as teaching service. I am glad to be able to inform my hon. and gallant Friend that the Board has now decided that, subject to the conditions which I shall indicate later, they will be prepared to recognise, for the calculation of grant, additional expenditure incurred by local education authorities who desire to treat periods of War service with the forces as qualifying men assistant teachers for increments on the appropriate scale in the following cases, these being cases in which the men were in definite stages of acquiring qualifications for employment as certificated teachers, and would, in the ordinary course, have obtained permanent employment in that capacity at a considerably earlier date if they had not joined the forces.
The men of whom I speak are firstly, students whose training college course was interrupted during the War, but who either completed a course satisfactorily after demobilisation, or were given a provisional certificate. Secondly, students who before joining the forces had been accepted by a training college for admission and who completed a course satisfactorily after demobilisation. Thirdly, pupil-teachers and student-teachers, who before joining the forces, although not yet accepted by a training college for admission, were then qualified for admission and who entered a training college at the earliest opportunity after demobilisation and completed the course satisfactorily. Fourthly, uncertificated teachers of not more than two years' standing at the time of joining His Majesty's forces who either ( a ) entered a training college within 12 months of demobilisation and completed a course of training satisfactorily; or ( b ) passed the acting-teachers' certificate examination not later than the next examination following the expiry of 12 months from the date of demobilisation.
The following conditions will be applicable to such cases: Firstly, service with the forces of the Crown before the age of 18 should not be counted. Secondly, no service with the forces for which the teacher volunteered after the Armistice should be counted. Thirdly, if the total period spent in a training college by a college-trained teacher falls short of two years, the difference between two years and the period actually spent in the college—both before and after enlistment—shall be deducted from any period allowed—for salary purposes—for service with the forces. It must be understood that what I have said relates solely to the recognition of salary expenditure, and has no bearing on the recognition of any service for the purposes of the School Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1918. That, my hon. and gallant Friend is aware, must necessarily be the subject for legislation. Upon that I am not in a position at present to give any undertaking. I feel sure that my hon. and gallant Friend who takes so deep an interest in the welfare of the ex-service teachers will recognise that the concession which I have already explained is one of a generous character, and that if will be particularly welcome to the gallant men who were preparing for the teaching profession and volunteered early in the War. I may add that the Board of Education will very shortly send out a circular to local education authorities explaining, in detail, the effect of the statement I have made.
National Finance
:On the Second Reading of the Consolidated Funds Bill the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a very important statement on the present grave financial position of the country. On that occasion I rose to comment upon his observations, but in deference to a request from the Leader of the House I agreed to postpone my few remarks to the present time. I should hesitate on such an occasion as the present, a day or two before the close of the Session, to raise so heavy and so disagreeable a subject as that I am about to commend to the attention of the House, but for—as I see it—the extreme gravity of the situation, allied, I must confess, with the President's optimism—as I think, the deplorable optimism of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That tempts me to embark upon a diagnosis of the matter this evening.
On a former occasion, when we raised this subject, we were informed that we were performing a most unpatriotic service in awakening the country to the position in which we believed it was. We were told that such statements as those we made on the Third Reading of the Finance Bill were calculated to shake the credit of the country, and unduly to alarm the public. I, for one, hold the opinion that that is an entirely erroneous position for any Government to adopt. If a serious situation confronts this country, to attempt to conceal the truth from the public or to cloak from their gaze the real facts of the situation is wrong. If our history has proved any thing at all it has proved that our people invariably rise to a great emergency. If you want thrift and hard work that are being so continually preached from the opposite Benches, the best way to get that thrift and hard work is to enlighten the public as to the dire necessity of the financial situation; to speak out, to warn them, to tell them the truth, to state the real hard facts; then you will meet with a more ready response, the response you met with when a similar appeal to the country was made not so many years ago. That is the justification which I advance for taking a pessimistic and, as I believe, a true view, and one based upon the facts, as I hold, and which justify a pessimistic view of the present situation. I hope and trust that before we part something will be said from the Government side that will enlighten the country as to the true facts of the situation.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer divided his recent statement into two sections. He dealt with the coming financial year, and also with the present financial year. I will deal first with his remarks upon the future financial year. As the House is well aware in regard to the next financial year, a circular was recently issued by the Treasury demanding a reduction in the ordinary Supply services of 20 per cent. In this circular, sent out by my hon. Friend opposite, whom I am happy to see present (Mr. Young), it was set out that the only alternative to reduction of expenditure was fresh borrowings and, in addition, increased currency inflation, or increased taxation. It was stated in the circular that if this 20 per cent. reduction could not be achieved, these dire consequences would be incurred.
The result of that circular was the subject of much speculation and inquiry in the House. The Chancellor of the Exchequer finally merged the information in his speech of a few nights ago. We were told then that the actual result of this circular, asking for a cut of 20 per cent. on a sum of £603,000,000, was £50,000,000; that is to say, instead of 20 per cent. we have only a cut of 8 per cent. So we may presume, unless the remainder of the amount demanded can be attained upon this Estimate, we shall be faced with the dire consequences set out in the circular. The Chancellor himself, in the statement he made, said that it was absolutely necessary to achieve a reduction of no less a sum than £130,000,000, or £80,000,000 more than the reduction achieved if we were to avoid either fresh borrowings or fresh taxation next year. I do not think, in making that Estimate of £130,000,000, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has fully and adequately taken into his consideration the immense fall in our trade returns, and the immense decline which in consequence we may anticipate in the revenue. We may reflect that in less than a year the total volume of trade in this country has depreciated by very nearly one-half. I think the Estimate of £130,000,000 reduction in next year's Estimate is a very meagre allowance with which to meet so grave a situation. I would ask my hon. Friend, when he comes to reply, to afford us what hopes he has even of achieving that extra £80,000,000 reduction on the Estimate of next year, over and above the £50,000,000 already achieved? I also ask from what sources he has effected this reduction. Is it on the extraordinary war expenditure or is it upon our ordinary revenue. As the House is well aware, Budgets are divided under two heads, War expenditure on services arising directly from the War and the ordinary expenditure in conducting the affairs of the country. I shall be very grateful to the Financial Secretary if he will say under which of these heads he hopes to effect a reduction of £130,000,000. In regard lo next year, the Chancellor of the Exchequer is apparently waiting for something to turn up to the extent of £80,000,000. Personally I think a much larger windfall will be necessary to salve the situation. After waiting for a long time for something to turn up the right hon. Gentleman now says that he has some hopes of a German indemnity.
Before I proceed to an examination of the present year's finance let me say that I differ altogether in regard to the claim of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to apply this fortuitous sum derived from the indemnity to balancing his Budget. That sum should be ear-marked expressly for the reduction of debt. The Government are once again perpetuating the vicious system which they have initiated of applying capital to balance current expenditure. Already they have squandered the revenue derived from the sales of war stores which they have applied to balancing our current expenditure, and now they propose to take a fresh capital sum arising out of the indemnity to balancing the Budget upon which already a very great deficit has accrued, a deficit which should have been foreseen and guarded against at the introduction of the Budget, when we were all aware of the initial stages of the trade depression in which we find ourselves to-day.
May I proceed to examine the present situation, leaving out of account for a moment the sum which we hope to realise by indemnities from Germany? The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated that the Supplementary Estimates which have been introduced since the Budget under the two heads ordinary and extraordinary expenditure, and which are set against the surpluses which were anticipated under those two heads at the, time of the Budget, amount to £98,000,000, leaving £78,000,000, or only £2,000,000 short of the £80,000,000, which, at the end of this year, the Chancellor of the Exchequer anticipated would be available for debt redemption. The Chancellor of the Exchequer informs us that these £98,000,000 for Supplementary Estimates include the Mesopotamia expenditure, and all the Supplementary Estimates which have been presented this year. I have computed the total of these Supplementary Estimates, and I make the total £118,000,000. I will very briefly recite them, showing how I arrive at that conclusion. Estimate No. 172 is for £62,000,000; Estimate 129 is for the deficit on the working of the railways, and the amount is £9,000,000; Estimate 121 is £27,000,000 for Mesopotamia; No. 155 is the coal subsidy of £10,000,000; and there is a further sum of £8,000,000 which has not appeared in a Supplementary Estimate to meet the expenses of the Reserve Forces, and that makes £118,000,000 and not £98,000,000. It would appear, if my estimate is correct, that already our Estimate of £80,000,000 at the end of the year being available for debt redemption has been reduced to £58,000,000 after four-and-a-half months of the financial year have elapsed.
In considering the sum that will be available, or rather which will not be available, we must also consider the actual deficit in revenue and expenditure which has accrued already and the very serious decline in our revenue as compared with last year. We find in the first 4½ months a deficit of very nearly £47,000,000. I think that never before in our financial history as far as I remember, speaking roughly, has a greater deficit than some £6,000,000 manifested itself in the first quarter of the year, and a proportionate sum in the first 4½ months. We are now confronted with a deficit in the first 4½ months of nearly £47,000,000. No doubt the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will say it is not fair to take the beginning of the year because that is always a lean period, and it has so happened that some of our miscellaneous receipts have not been realised early in the year and will be realised later. But it is fair, at any rate, to take the comparison upon ordinary revenue between the returns of this year and last year for the first 4½ months.
:Is the hon. Member referring to the financial year or the current year.
:It is up to 13th August, inclusive of war stores. We find a gross decline in the revenue for the first 4½ months of this year, as compared with last year, of no less than £124,800,416. In the ordinary revenue, exclusive of miscellaneous receipts, we find a decline of £43,797,834. The gravity of these figures is enhanced when we reflect that during the corresponding period, as compared with last year, our expenditure has actually increased by £1,166,376. We have a decline in our gross revenue of £124,000,000, and an increase of our expenditure of over £1,000,000. It will need a very great windfall from German sources to compensate us for the deficit which we may anticipate on this year's Budget. I have read some figures illustrating the decline in the first 4½ months of the year, as compared with the first 4½ months of last year, and I will now give some figures showing that thid decline in revenue, as compared with last year, is not slowing down as time goes on, but is actually speeding up, and the deficit grows each month rather than decreases. In the ordinary revenue for the first 3 months of this year we found a decline of £26,000,000 as compared with last year. In the first 4 months the decline was £36,000,000, and in the first 4½ months it had grown to £43,000,000. Therefore it will be seen that the decline is gathering speed with every month. It is the same with expenditure. For the first 3 months we found a decrease in expenditure of £13,000,000. In the first 4 months the decrease had subsided to £192,000. At the end of 4 months we had got an increased expenditure compared with last year of over £1,000,000.
Of course, the lesson to be learnt from these figures is that as the year proceeds trade declines, and the general depression is manifested in the revenue returns. By reason of the great trade depression in which we are immersed to-day, and as a result of which many of our industries are throwing thousands out of employment, owing to our system of Income Tax payment the results are only just beginning to manifest themselves in the revenue returns of the country, and as the year proceeds we can anticipate on that hypothesis a steady and increasing decline in our revenue returns as compared with last year. In the very near future we shall witness a far greater slump in our revenue than we have even dreamt of in the last few months. It cannot and must not be forgotten by a Government which is budgeting for the future that revenue follows trade, and not very far behind it. If we study the trade figures for the first seven months of this year, and compare them with the figures for the first seven months of last year, we find there has been a decline in imports of 45 per cent., a decline in exports of 46 per cent., and a decline in our re-exports, the great trade on which the prosperity of this country was founded in the past, of no less than 61 per cent. It is evident as time goes on that these figures manifest and reflect themselves in the revenue returns, and we may view with absolute certainty the prospect of a progressive steady decrease in our revenue returns as compared with last year. I cannot conceive on what the Chancellor of the Exchequer bases that facile optimism which in the past has been so monotonous and so deadly a peculiarity of the present Cabinet. With the revenue showing a progressive decline every month as time goes on, I cannot conceive how the right hon. Gentleman hopes to balance his revenue and expenditure in the future in the face of the circumstances I have described.
After all, the sales of war stores, and even the German indemnities, will come to an end in time, and at last the Government will be confronted with the necessity of balancing their ordinary working revenue and expenditure. In the light of these figures, I really venture to suggest that the time has come to turn our thoughts with all seriousness to the need for real economy. The revenue of the country is bound to decline. The situation is bound to deteriorate during the months that are to come unless many very unlikely conditions are realised. First, with regard to the sale of your war stores. Are you going to realise the sum that was anticipated in the Budget? The Chancellor of the Exchequer was most dubious on that subject when he spoke the other night. He virtually admitted there was very little chance of realising it. Are we going to realise in the remaining months the revenue which we anticipated? Are we going to maintain our revenue in the later months, so that we shall only be confronted with the deficit we have to-day? A slight study of the trade returns will surely demonstrate that we have no hope of recovery, and are faced with the certain prospect of a further decline. Are we very certain that we shall not be faced before long with an increase in our expenditure? Are we certain there will be no fresh Supplementary Estimates before the year has run its course? Fresh and unexpected expenditure is always a vivid prospect when a country is embarking on great, far-flung Imperial commitments—when the country is seeking to subdue warlike peoples with inadequate forces.
The difference between expenditure on social reforms and that on grandiose schemes of inflated Imperial Government is marked. On social matters your expenditure is certainly limited. It is also certain in the benefit which will accrue from it. But in these far-flung schemes in distant countries your expenditure is uncertain and unlimited, and fresh demands may be made at any moment. You are only certain of one thing, and that is the evil effects which will follow in their train for the people who initiate them. We are confronted with warlike and military entanglements all over the world and with inadequate forces to maintain them. Our position is very uncertain. Even to-day one hears fresh rumours of war and troubles in such countries as Palestine and Mesopotamia. I am informed on very good authority that in a short period of time we shall be obliged to strengthen our forces in that country, even if we have not to send out a new expedition by reason of the zeal of some of our enthusiasts for a certain policy. I am afraid that the last gamble of the Colonial Secretary is not assured of any better measure of success than his former gamble, and may be prolific once again of the loss both of life and of treasure. We have arrived at that stage in the world's affairs where the working men of this country, men who earn their daily bread, can trace the direct cause and effect. They can trace Imperial ambitions as reflected in the amount of revenue which it takes to maintain those ambitions. They can trace the effect of a belligerent foreign policy in the closing of our foreign markets, on which alone we can maintain such schemes of ambition at the moment.
To-day, despite the optimism of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, we find almost every market in the world closed against us. In the markets by which our trade alone can recover and shake off the great burden of taxation which to-day weighs it down—our markets in America and other countries—we are faced with the competition of the European countries which are bearing the great incidence of our reparation policy, assisted by the bounty on exchange which they have secured. We are faced also with the cheap Oriental competition which we have released from any restraining shackles of fair competition by our repudiation of the Washington Conventions. In the home markets of Europe we may trace a yet more direct relationship between cause and effect. We can trace, in the closing of those markets, bringing as it does thousands into unemployment in this country, the policy of Versailles—the carving up of Europe into uneconomic units; and, instead of direct assistance by international loan and other projects, which were then mooted and turned down, for the reconstruction of those broken countries, we can trace above all the effects of a great nation having promoted hostility rather than exerted its power to prevent it. In the years of the past there has been credit enough for those who wanted to fight, and little credit enough for those who wanted to restore their industries. For this ludicrous paradox of the whole world to-day crying out for the commodities which we are in a position to supply, while there is widespread unemployment in this country—for all that we must bear the blame. After all, we were the great creditor nation. All those countries, whose schemes of grandiose imperialism and promotion of hostilities between these small squabbling countries, have wrecked our European markets and flung back for a decade our prospects of recovery, daily solicited our credit and financial support to allow them to continue. We possessed the economic weapon, yet failed to use it. Our terms then, as I see it, should have been, "No peace, no credit; no disarmament, no money." We failed to exert that weapon, and we find, as a. result of that—combined, of course, with our failure to initiate schemes for the economic reconstruction of Europe—half Europe waste, unable to buy our commodities, and at home widespread unemployment, which can be directly attributed to the failure of our foreign policy. That is the situation which confronts the trade and industries of this country, upon which is dependent that increase in our revenue, which alone can in future years enable this country to carry on without the grievous cutting of the most essential services. We have abandoned our great schemes for the regeneration of our people upon which this House was returned. There is the prospect of an almost inevitable deficit in the present year, and of a still graver one in the coming year; and all we have to depend upon to meet that situation is the slender, nebulous, shadowy hope of a few windfalls from German reparations.
:In a speech of remarkable eloquence the hon. Member has surveyed mankind from China to Peru, and has given us a banquet of history, philosophy, geography, economics, and every other subject that is taught in the schools. On one subject only, I think, he showed a little ignorance, and that was the elementary subject of arithmetic, as I shall be able to indicate in the very few observations which I shall venture to offer upon that very small part of his speech which concerned the practical details of finance. He. charges the Chancellor of the Exchequer with two faults—the fault of concealment, and, if it be a fault in these bad days, which have afflicted the hon. Member's mind with such profound pessimism, the fault of optimism. I think that in these respects he is somewhat ungrateful. On two recent occasions the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with great fullness of detail, has given the House an account of this very subject upon which the hon. Member has addressed it to-day; but, of course, if, in advancing one's arguments, one always turns one's eyes away from all fresh information that can be brought to bear, that, no doubt, is the way in which to encourage the view that the hon. Member takes.
As regards the practical details of the questions with which he has been dealing, I would, in the first place, refer in a very general manner to this year's Budget and to the catastrophes which the hon. Member predicts for it. As was pointed out by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his recent observations, the total surplus in the original Budget was £177,000,000, estimated. Of this, £97,000,000 was written off for Supple-mentaries due to the strike, the railways, and other causes, leaving £80,000,000 free for debt. As things have turned out, the Supplementaries at the present time amount to a figure which, if the hon. Member will permit me to do so, I will repeat, namely, £98,000,000, as given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on a previous occasion. The hon. Member makes the figure £118,000,000. The reason is that he has in this matter made a mistake of £24,000,000. It is, perhaps, a small matter upon which to comment, but, of course, it will give some pain to a careful student of the subject. In regarding the Estimate for the Middle East, the hon. Member has omitted to observe a circumstance—or let me rather say that he has not quite realised the bearing of the circumstance—that £24,000,000 of that Estimate is repayment to the War Office of sums already voted.
:May I say that I did say that in my opening speech on the Third Reading of the Finance Bill, and it was corrected by the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
:I am not aware, of course, of what the hon. Member said on the previous occasion. On this occasion he challenged the Chancellor of the Exchequer's figure of £98,000,000, and he has done so by counting twice over the sum of £24,000,000 which does not come into the Supplementary Estimates at all. I will not venture to say that it is an elementary error, but it is an error which it is very necessary to correct at the first possible opportunity. The Supplementary Estimates amounting to £98,000,000, the surplus still outstanding on the original Estimate amounts to £79,000,000. Let me caution the House against the repeated use of the word "deficit" in the observations of the hon. Member. There is no deficit in sight, and it is a dangerous word to allow to go out, because it is apt to mislead those who do not, as we do here, know how to discount the emotions of eloquence. The surplus still in sight on the original Budget is £79,000,000. Against that of course we have to set the prospect of a fall in revenue, and so on.
Let me pass from that to what the hon. Member was saying about the prospects for next year. He ventures with great vigour and courage upon the attractive field of prophecy. Into this, with some experience of the gratuitous hardihood of unnecessary prophecy, I cannot follow him. The revenue for next year was estimated, subject to every conceivable reservation, in the Treasury circular at £950,000,000. That is a reduction upon this year's total revenue of the very substantial difference between £950,000,000 £1,200,000,000. The hon. Member gave a figure I was quite unable to trace or follow as the reduction in the Estimate as between this year and the very cautious Estimate given in the Treasury Circular, of a reduction from £1,200,000,000 to £950,000,000. Circumstances have been very hard on the country, its revenue, and its trade since that circular was issued. Very special emphasis was laid upon that, circumstance by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his recent speech. But to those who are disinclined to venture upon the fascinating field of prophecy there is no reason to suppose that this figure of £950,000,000, which was given as the measure, as the sum, the order of which had to be obtained—there is no reason to suppose there is any absolute necessity to make any very great difference in it at present. In referring to the result of the Treasury circular, to which I am now addressing myself, the hon. Member declared with great emphasis that the only result was a proposed reduction of £50,000,000. He has here made an error of £20,000,000.
:No, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said £50,000,000 to date, and he hoped for another £20,000,000. I understood that was not yet realised.
:I am addressing myself to what was said. Observations made with some emphasis are apt to obtain circulation—
:I was dealing with facts, not aspirations.
:£and when he says the only result of the circular was a proposed reduction of £50,000,000, it is necessary for me to correct that statement, because it is inaccurate. That is not the actual result. It is not the result at all. The initial result at the beginning of the long process of work which is necessary for the preparation of Estimates is, on a certain proportion of the whole field of expenditure, a reduction of £50,000,000, and upon another proportion of the whole field of expenditure, on which at the moment it has not yet been possible to obtain such a definite preliminary investigation, it was estimated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at £20,000,000, making, not £50,000,000, but £70,000,000. The point I want to emphasise is that the process of preparing next year's Estimates is a process and not an act. It takes time, and, like all things which are worth doing, it takes work. The figures which have been given are the result of the first initial survey of the whole field. It is entirely misleading to represent that this is the result of the circular. So far from being the result, it is the mere starting point.
The hon. Member made a reference to the sums referred to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to be received from Germany in the course of this year, and he challenged the propriety of devoting those sums to revenue instead of setting them against capital expenditure. Here again I cannot help thinking that this criticism, which I know has been advanced in other quarters—it did not originate with the hon. Member—if it is seriously advanced, is based upon a certain misapprehension as to the bearing of the whole question of reparations. A fuller investigation of the present condition of the account between us and Germany would have disclosed to such critics that the first payments received from Germany are allocated to the discharge of the debt from them in respect to the armies of occupy tion, a sum—I cannot give details—of the same order at any rate, whether greater or less, as the sum which was referred to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to be hoped for in the course of this year. Therefore, there is no choice as to whether this sum is to be devoted to capital expenditure or to revenue, or the £5,000,000 for reparations in respect of these initial payments. They are allocated to the cost of the army of occupation and go towards wiping off that debt from Germany and her Allies.
I think I have dealt now with the principal questions of fact which appear to me to be in urgent need of reply in the course of the hon. Member's observations. Excessively gloomy forecasts as to our prospects this year or next are not warranted. Optimism and pessimism are equally mischievous. The only safe and wholesome thing to do is to look at the facts as we know them, to realise what they are, and take a reasonable line of conduct upon them. It has been very carefully explained why pessimistic forecasts based upon the first quarter's revenue this year are not guaranteed by facts. I must repeat them here. The national revenue makes up its leeway in the last quarter of the year. It is yet far too soon to say whether the recovery will be seriously affected in the last quarter or not. There is no reason at present either to be unduly optimistic or unduly pessimistic about it. The second reason why these attacks of excessive gloom, based on the first quarter's revenue, are unjustifiable is because, in the comparison with the previous year, it is a mere accidental circumstance of account keeping that very large sums for special receipts from the sale of war stores, and so on, which happened to be received in that quarter of the preceding financial year have not been received in it in this. Language which applies words of ruin and catastrophe to our finance this year is as mistaken in fact as it is mischievous. It is not warranted by the facts of the case. Nobody underestimates the bad time through which we are passing, and the effect of it upon our revenue in the course of this year and next year. The probable effect of it is foreseen, and is allowed for in every calculation made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Treasury. It does not amount to anything so full of gloom and catastrophe as would make it justifiable to spread abroad a sense of uncertainty and disquiet by the use of the extravagant language which is occasionally heard both inside this House and outside.
Disability Pensions
:I desire to bring to the notice of the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Pensions a case which has been before my notice for some time, and I offer no apology to the House for doing so, although, like previous speakers, I am sorry to have to bring the matter forward on the motion for the adjournment. One has taken every constitutional method that can be adopted by a private Member to bring this case to the notice of the Department concerned. I frankly admit the courtesy and kindness that the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Pensions has shown to me in waiting so long in order to listen to my observations. This afternoon at Question time I put down a question relating to the case of Mr. R. C. F. Weight, late Lance Corporal of the 6th Reserve Cavalry Regiment, register No. D/14767, and I asked if it was a fact that the claim for pension made by this man had been dismissed by the Central Appeal Tribunal; whether it was a fact that this man had never had the opportunity of appearing before the Appeal Tribunal, and that the evidence which was submitted to the tribunal was a precis of material medical facts purporting to be the findings of a Medical Board was admitted by the Appeal Tribunal to be not a précis of material medical facts, but a précis of the result of a domiciliary visit by a medical officer. In calling attention to this case I have no axe to grind beyond the fact that I am elected to this House in order to do my duty to the men who have served this country, and that when a case has come under my observation and I feel that there is an injustice being done, it is not only a joy to endeavour to rectify that injustice, but it is a duty which rests upon every Member of the House. It is because of the responsibility that I feel in this matter that I have had the audacity on the adjournment motion to bring this case before the attention of my hon. Friend.
9.0 P.M.
Since this man's demobilisation he has never been medically examined. It is true that on one occasion he was visited by a doctor, which is termed a domiciliary visit. When visited in his home the doctor did not examine him. He merely asked him certain questions relating to his health, but so far as examination was concerned, the testing of the lungs and other things which are usual, never took place. Yet we find that when he made his appeal to the Central Appeal Tribunal for justice, and asked that a pension should be given to him, that evidence was submitted as a précis of material medical facts, purporting to be the findings of a. Medical Board, and the Central Appeal Tribunal itself admitted that he had not appeared before a Medical Board. In this case there has been serious injustice. In order to get finality this case has been dealt with by every constitutional method. One of the claims of an applicant for pension is to give evidence in person before the Central Appeal Tribunal, but this man never knew when his case was coming up, and he was never requested to appear before the Appeal Tribunal. It was found, and it has been proved, that his case has been heard, and that he has never been acquainted with it, and the result is that his appeal] has been turned down.
I admit at once, and probably the Parliamentary Secretary will say, that there must be finality somewhere. I do not want to minimise the value and importance of the Central Appeal Tribunal, but I do submit that even in the most perfect tribunal there are instances in the course of their deliberations where injustice may be meted out in some individual cases. I consider that this is one of those individual cases where an injustice has been done. This young fellow, who happened to be a member of one of our county council authorities, joined the Army as a volunteer. He was not one of the laggards or cowards to whom reference was made by one hon. Member when speaking of teachers' superannuation. He gladly went, and was prepared, if necessary, to sacrifice everything for the sake of his country. He went in the early days of the War. He was taken in the Army in category A.I., and when he was discharged after more than two years' service totally unfitted for further service in His Majesty's forces, he made his claim for pension. In the reply given to-day, the Parliamentary Secretary reiterates what is well known to some of us, that the tribunal came to the conclusion that the disability from which the man was suffering, namely, pulmonary tuberculosis, was not attributable to or accelerated by service during the War. Then he goes on to admit that during the hearing the tribunal found that what was described as a précis of the findings of a medical board ought to have been described as the précis of a domiciliary visit. By the provisions of Section 8 of the War Pensions Administrative Provisions Act, 1919, the decision of the tribunal is final.
When this House is satisfied that a miscarriage of justice has taken place, is there to be no tribunal to which we can go, where that miscarriage can be rectified, or is that man who has had years cut off his life because of his service to the country to be cast adrift because the decision of the tribunal is final? If that is so, decisions of that character will invariably cause dissatisfaction which even the present Government would very much dislike. There should be some means of seeing that a case may be reopened so that there may be opportunities for a man to give evidence which he is anxious to give. If I thought for a moment that this man was making a claim which he was not entitled to make, I would not stand for him. But knowing the case, knowing what he was before the War, recognising the position in which he is to-day, I say that there is no man whose case is more worthy of consideration. From the present representatives of the Ministry of Pensions I have never received anything but the greatest courtesy and kindness. The Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary are gentlemen of sympathetic hearts prepared to do everything humanly possible to see that justice is done. I ask them to reopen this case and to give this man an opportunity of defending himself in accordance with the principles of British justice.
:I thank my hon. Friend for the courteous way in which he gave me notice at the earliest possible opportunity that he was going to bring up this case, and it is not his fault in the very special circumstances of this afternoon that I was only enabled to hear of the case a short time ago, when all the offices were shut, and therefore I was not in a position to obtain the papers and particulars about this case. We are only anxious to do our best for the pensioners in all cases, and so far from feeling that the hon. Member ought in any way to apologise for bringing up this case, we thank him for calling attention to any case where administrative regulations can be improved and individual cases dealt with. I will go into this case personally, and communicate with my hon. Friend at the earliest possible opportunity. The only information which I have at the moment about this case is that which he has given us. That is that in this particular case the disability was held by the tribunal not to be attributable to war service. I shall be happy to communicate the result of my inquiries to my hon. Friend at the earliest possible moment.
Unemployment Benefit
:I was anxious to bring before the Minister of Labour who, I regret, is not here, the question of unemployment of miners. He told us yesterday that it has been decided by the Umpire that men who were out owing to the repairs of mines caused by the stoppage were not entitled to unemployment benefit This decision requires some explanation from the Umpire himself, because the question whether or not the mines are out of order owing to the dispute is a matter which only an expert who knows the technical side of mining can properly decide. I would like to know from the Minister if he will communicate with me whether or not an expert or assessor was present while he took evidence and gave his decision. It is true that in many cases the mines were wilfully destroyed by some men because of the withdrawal of the safety men from the mines. That, I think, was very bad policy on the part of those who gave that instruction. But it was done, owing to the fact that these instructions had been given by the executive and the men were anxious to carry them out. We all know now and many of us knew at the time, and I knew, that it was a very wrong thing to do, and that by and by it would react against the men as it has done to-day to a very large extent.
It is true that in many mines the stoppage of pumping for a few days would put the mines out of repair. In that case the men ought to have unemployment benefit, because, even supposing that a shaft was wrecked for a few days, it would take in some cases a week to put the mines in proper order, and there would be just as much reason in a case of that kind to withhold unemployment benefit. The men to-day are suffering greatly because many of them get no unemployment benefit. Many of them during the stoppage got nothing from the Federation and there is at present a great deal of distress. Only a few days ago, before I left for London, I was very much shocked and pained that at 6 o'clock in the morning some men came to my door asking, not for money, but for food to tide them over the day. Every day after breakfast for several mornings several men came to get sufficient food to provide them for the day for themselves and their families. It would be well if the Minister would reconsider the matter and put these men in such a position as they will get unemployment benefit, because it is through no fault of their own that they are idle.
It is true that these men to-day are suffering because they were misled and guided by foolish advice given by men who ought to have known better. I appeal to the Minister to reconsider their case, and if possible to get benefit for these men who are out of employment through the deliberate acts of other men, and are getting no unemployment benefit for the reason given by the Umpire. I make that appeal on four grounds. First, that the damage caused to the underground working by the withdrawal of the safety men was not of their own seeking, but was due to the foolish policy initiated by the Miners' Federation and the men carrying out the instructions given to them as they thought they were entitled to do. Secondly—and upon this point I would place the greatest importance on humane grounds—a very large number of these men have wives and children, and to-day they are destitute and suffering. I am sure that none of us would care to have laid upon him the charge that this country permitted any man or his wife and children to suffer for want of food.
Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted; and 40 Members being present: —
:The third ground on which I would put forward my claim for these men is that to a large extent they are suffering because of the deeds of others. Fourthly, the majority of these men knew nothing about the acts of the others, were opposed to what was done, and those who did the damage to the pits were in a very small minority. I hope the Minister of Labour will be able to re-open this question so that evidence on the subject may be taken by men who know the technical details of mining operations. I am sure that such evidence will result in justice being done to a large class of deserving men. Large numbers are in dire distress, not only in my own constituency, of which I know most, but throughout the coalfields of Great Britain.
:I wish to support the appeal of the last speaker and to draw attention also to the case of those unemployed whose right to draw benefit has expired. It would be almost a calamity if the House adjourned before something was done to meet the great need of those whose period of benefit has been exhausted. If things go on as they are the result will be the bankruptcy of many of our local authorities, for instead of the charge coming upon the national exchequer it will come upon local authorities which are already overburdened. In one part of my constituency, in Weardale and Teesdale, large numbers of men are now out of work and are not drawing unemployment benefit. In a very short time they will be in absolute distress. We have appealed repeatedly to the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Transport to get on with work which in those dales would employ large numbers of men. Had this work been undertaken before there would have been an enormous saving to this country in the amount of money spent on unemployment benefit. Moreover, the work suggested would be useful work. In each of these dales there is a cul-de-sac. Investigations have been made by the Board of Trade. The idea is to cut a railway through the cul-de-sac and so link up Weardale with part of Northumberland. That would result in a great saving in transit and it would enable lead mines and other industries to start operations. Here is an opportunity, and a practical way of finding useful employment for these men. Instead of these lead mines being closed owing to the heavy cost of transport, they could be able to be made a paying concern. Thousands of men could get work who to-day are out of work in Weardale, and are likely in the near future to be a charge on the local authority, unless this House comes to their assistance and makes provision in the shape of unemployment benefit. I hope the President of the Board of Trade will pay some attention to these suggestions, which have been repeatedly made to him by the local authorities in Weardale and Teesdale, so that these men will have an opportunity of finding employment. Otherwise we shall have again to appeal to the Minister of Labour to extend the Vote, which I expect the House will do. So far as Teesdale is concerned, you will find there a large number of sober and steady men who, through no fault of their own, are out of work, and whose families are in a state of starvation, while the Poor Law authorities are at their wits' end to know what to do.
The Minister of Transport says if he had had instructions 12 months ago from the President of the Board of Trade he could have found the men and the material, so that the railways from Middleton-in-Teesdale up to Alston could be linked up. There, again, we could find useful work for all the men unemployed. That would enable them to open out land for cultivation which to-day is inaccessible. It would provide abundance of work for men on the land in producing food to meet the nation's needs in the near future and would help us to become a self-supporting country.
If that were done it would enable us to exploit the mineral resources which exist so richly in the Dale I do not think there is a nation which is richer in minerals than we are; but, instead of developing our resources at home with our labour organised and with the knowledge and science which we possess, in order to produce wealth and find employment for the men at our own doors, we spend millions of pounds in various parts of the world. As the old Book says: "The eyes of the fool are always centred on the other ends of the earth." That seems very much the case with our Government. We have been developing transport in Mesopotamia and other parts of the East, when we could have developed and opened up transport in our own country. We could have developed the rich areas and hills which are laden with iron ore, whinstone, ganistone, limestone, lignum vitcœe, lead, coal and gold. Because of the want of transport, however, and of our short-sighted policy, no effort is being made to do this, and there is no co-ordination whatever between the Ministry of Transport, the Board of Trade, and the Labour Department. We expected the Labour Department to act as the eyes and ears of the needs of the industrial population. When we got that Department established we expected that its function would be not simply to record, through the medium of the Labour Exchanges, the number of men out of employment, but that the Minister, with all the other Departments, would try to find ways and means whereby these men would be found work in the various parts of the country where they were needed. If that had been done, then instead of voting £2,000,000 for unemployment pay, which, in the circumstances to-day is quite insufficient, there would have been no necessity for our men to be out of work, and there would have been abundance of employment for every man able and willing to work.
I appeal to the Government to try to do something in the way of finding work. If, in the meantime, they cannot find useful employment, I hope they will see to it that these men have something which will maintain their families, and that, as soon as possible, they will find work, not in Mesopotamia, but in our own country. My hon. Friend, speaking with regard to many men being out of work, said it was owing to the blind folly of certain members of their associations. I have a letter complaining about unemployment and about mines being closed, not because of the blundering of trade union leaders, but owing to the avaricious demands of certain companies. In one case it cost 2s. 5d. per ton more more than the men were actually getting for hewing the coal to convey it for a mile. Therefore, my hon. Friend cannot attribute the fault in that case to the past policy of the miners, and he will find it is due to the excessive charges for carrying this coal for a mile. At Gateshead a mine had to be closed because of the excessive charges, and quite apart from wages. I ask the Government to do something, and not to let us have a year of degradation and starvation amongst the men on the list of unemployed. They should find ways and means of continuing the unemployed benefits until useful work is obtainable. I have suggested how that can be done in at least two areas in this country, and that useful work can be found for all the men in Weardale and Teesdale. This constructive work would be of great benefit to the nation and would add to its health and prosperity in future.
Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and negatived.
Gas Regulation Act, 1920
Resolved:
That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Spenborough Urban District Council, which was presented on the 15th August (Cmd. 1475), be àpproved.—[ Sir W. Mitchell-Thomson. ]
Message from the Lords
That they do not insist on their Amendments to the Safeguarding of Industries Bill with which this House has disagreed.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of 26th July.
Adjourned at Twenty-six Minutes before Ten o'clock.