House of Commons
Tuesday, November 1, 1921
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Oban Burgh Order Confirmation Bill,
Greenock Corporation Order Confirmation Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.
Perth Corporation (Waterworks, Etc.) Order Confirmation Bill,
"to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Perth Corporation (Waterworks, etc.)," presented by Mr. MUNRO; and ordered (under Section 7 of the Act) to be considered To-morrow.
Oral Answers to Questions
India
Budget (Council of State)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether the Standing Order disallowing discussion on the Budget in the Council of State is still in force?
As far as I am aware, the answer is in the affirmative.
Indian Students (United Kingdom)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether the Committee to examine the conditions of Indians in the United Kingdom has reported, or what is the present position in this behalf?
The Committee appointed under Lord Lytton's chairmanship to examine the question of Indian students in the United Kingdom is still sitting. It will report on the results of the evidence which it has so far been able to take in this country. I shall be glad to send my hon. Friend a copy of correspondence on the matter between Lord Lytton and myself, which has already been communicated to the Press.
Bolshevik Positions (Bokhara and Afghanistan)
asked the Secretary of State for India what positions, if any, are occupied at present by the Bolsheviks in or near the borders of Bokhara and Afghanistan.
The posts held by the Bolsheviks in a military sense are, as far as is known, the same as those originally held by Czarist Russia, such as Khushk, Termez, Kalla-ba-Panjà, etc. Bokhara itself is normally independent, but has become, as the hon. Member is doubtless aware, part of the Russian Soviet Federation.
Self-Government (Extension)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has received any communication from the Government of India in reference to the proposals made in the Legislative Council at Simla for an extension of self-government to India before the period of 10 years contemplated by Section 41 of The Government of India Act, 1919, has elapsed?
The resolution reported by Reuter as having been passed by the Legislative Assembly has not yet been officially communicated to me.
Having regard to the extreme seriousness of this matter, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of utilising the Joint Select Committee on Indian Affairs, which has been set up for this very purpose?
Certainly, the Joint Committee can consider any question it desires, and particularly this question. I am not aware of anything in the Statute which would prevent the appointment of a Commission. The view I have always taken on this matter was expressed by me in the Debate on the Government of India Act.
That is to the effect that it is not desirable to deal with this matter until after the Commission which has to go out to India has reported, after 10 years have elapsed?
In my view it will not be possible to consider amendment of the Government of India Act until a Commission has visited that country.
Press Acts
asked the Secretary of State for India which were the local governments in India who expressed the opinion, recorded in the Report of the Committee appointed by the Government of India to examine the Indian Press Acts of 1867, 1908, and 1910, that the retention of the Act of 1910 was desirable in the interests of law and order; for what reason the Government of India propose to repeal these Acts, and in the case of seditious documents confiscated by order of the local government to allow the right of appeal, and to put the onus of proof that the document is seditious upon the local government instead of putting the onus of proving that the document is not seditious upon the owner or author; why the prescribed term of imprisonment is to be reduced; and why the Government of India desires to divest itself of the safeguards it now possesses against the spread of sedition just at the present time when sedition is so rife in India?
I fear I could not give my hon. and gallant Friend the information for which he asks within the compass of an oral reply. I am therefore having a full statement prepared, and will circulate it when complete in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The following is the statement mentioned:
All the local governments (except Madras and Bombay, which favoured repeal of the Press Act and the provision of safeguards of another kind) advocated the retention of the Press Act in some form. But, as stated in the Committee's report, there was considerable divergence of opinion between them as to the nature of the modifications which should be made.
It is not proposed to repeal the Act of 1867, and the repeal of the Act of 1910 is to be accompanied by the re-enactment, with certain modifications, of some of its provisions. One of the provisions to be retained is the power to order the forfeiture of seditious documents, and along with this it is also proposed to retain the right of appeal against such an order to a special bench of the High Court, which is allowed by the Act of 1910. The proposal to place on the Government the onus of proving the seditious character of documents seized, is based on the general principle that the burden of proof lies on the prosecution and on the consideration that documents—the seditious character of which the Government is not in a position to prove—may reasonably and in general be assumed to be documents which do not seriously offend against the law of sedition.
As regards the third part of the question, the offences in respect of which it is proposed to reduce the maximum term of imprisonment from two years to six months, are not offences against the law of sedition, but breaches of the provisions of the Registration Act of 1867, such as failure to comply with the requirement of declaration of publishers' and printers' names and to display those names on published works. Such offences (which are commonly punished by fine and not by imprisonment) would seem to be adequately met by the reduced term of imprisonment when imprisonment is ordered.
As regards the last part of the question, the reasons for the proposals were given at length by the Committee, whose views the Government of India have accepted.
Army Officers (Pay and Pensions)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has now received the recommendations of the Government of India regarding the adjustment of the pay and pensions of those officers of the Indian Army who were retained in the Army on account of the War beyond the date on which they became due to be placed on the retired list; and what decision has been arrived at?
The views of the Government of India on this subject have not yet been received. I have asked that I may have them at an early date.
Shall we have the information before the end of the Session?
That I cannot say, but I hope so.
European Goods (Boycott)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he can state the effect of Mr. Ghandi's agitation in favour of the boycott of British-made cloth; what effect this agitation has had on employment in the Lancashire and Cheshire cotton mills; whether he can make any general statement upon Mr. Ghandi's machinations; and if it is the intention of His Majesty's Government in' India to arrest and deport this agitator?
As regards the first two parts of the question, the Government of India have informed me that they see no reason to believe that the movement for the boycott of European goods is receiving, or is likely to receive, effective support from any large purchasing section of the community. As regards the last two parts of the question, I do not think that there is any general statement which I can make. Mr. Ghandi's proceedings are being closely watched by the Government of India, and they will decide whether, and when, any action should be taken in respect of them.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that his reply will still further add to the agitation, and will it not lead people still further to think that this fellow is a Mahatma?
All that I have said in my reply is once more to announce the sound constitutional doctrine that it must be for the Government of India to decide when and how they will deal with these matters.
Repressive Acts
asked the Prime Minister whether, considering that the Moplah rebels are reported to be out for a general and merciless campaign of murder, looting, and forcible conversion, the Government will advise the Government of India not to proceed with their proposed Bill for the immediate repeal of certain repressive Acts that are now on the Indian Statute Book and thus to divest themselves of the powers to repress this or any other rebellion that they now have, especially as the Viceroy has ex- pressed himself as conscious that the need of special powers may again arise in the future?
I am in correspondence with the Government of India on the matter, and I can make no statement at the present time. I would say, however, that I do not accept my hon. and gallant Friend's statement that the proposed Bill, if passed, would divest the Government of India of their powers to repress rebellion; and that the opinion he attributes to the Viceroy is in fact that of the Government of Behar and Orissa, as shown in paragraph 28 of the Repressive Laws Committee Report.
Having regard to the position of the English people in India, would the right hon. Gentleman arrange that this matter also should be referred to the Joint Select Committee on Indian Affairs, in order that they may consider whether it is desirable, in the interests of this country, that the legislation should be carried out?
Has not a specially appointed Committee recently reported on this matter, and did it not recommend the retention of some of these repressive Acts, or at least of one of them?
I believe that the hon. Baronet is accurate, but I do not see how that affects the question which was put to me. With regard to the supplementary question put by the hon. Baronet the Member for Twickenham (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks) about the Joint Committee, I never undertook, when asking Parliament to agree to set up the Committee, that it should assist in the administration of India.
Does the right hon. Gentleman consider it advisable that the Government should divest themselves of all powers of repressing rebellion?
Was not this legislation intended to deal with intelligenzia, and not with Moplahs?
Army Strength (Imperial Defence Sub-Committee)
asked the Prime Minister if he will give the names of the members of the Sub-committee of Imperial Defence, to whom the question of the strength of the Army in India has been referred?
No, Sir. As has already been stated, it would be contrary to the usual practice to announce the membership of a Committee of this nature.
Does the right hon. Gentleman say that, when a great Imperial matter of this kind is referred to a Sub-committee of the Committee of Imperial Defence, there is no precedent for announcing the names? May the House of Commons not know who is to report on the vital question of the Army in India?
I did not say that there was no precedent. I said that it was contrary to the usual practice. I believe that that practice has only once been departed from. In the opinion of the Government it is contrary to the public interest that they should be asked to disclose the names of members of the Committee of Imperial Defence or of Subcommittees of that body.
Is the Committee now sitting?
Questions
East African Expedition, 1914
asked the Secretary of State for India what action has been taken with regard to that high military official who was responsible for the ill-fated East African expedition in 1914, which was undertaken against the advice of the Commander-in-Chief in India and for which Colonel Aitken was allowed for so long to bear the blame?
I am sure the hon. and gallant Member understands that these military operations were undertaken on the orders of His Majesty's Government at the time. This being the case, no question arises regarding the responsibility of any particular official.
Is it not a fact that General Aitken, as he was at that time, was removed from his command, and has been unemployed ever since that date, although his immediate subordinates have been raised to extremely good positions in the Government?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman asks me what action has been taken with regard to the high military official responsible for what he describes as "the ill-fated East African expedition in 1914." His Majesty's Government were responsible, and nobody else.
The responsibility was fixed on General Aitken at the time for this failure. Can the right hon. Gentleman state who was responsible for this expedition and whether any action has been taken?
I have said that the responsibility rested with His Majesty's Government.
Can the right hon. Gentleman do anything to reinstate Colonel Aitken?
There is another question on this subject.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that it is now a year since Colonel Aitken, commander of the East African expedition in 1914, was completely vindicated: that he then promised that steps would be taken at an early date suitably to recompense this officer; that he is suffering an unnecessary delay in the payment of his full pension; and nothing has been done by way of recompense?
I regret the delay, but am now expecting a reply from the Government of India which will enable me to announce a decision.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to give an answer before the House rises?
I hope so. I expect to have the information to-day. If not, I will telegraph for it.
I will put my question down again next week.
British Army
Surplus Forms
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that, in response to the request for supplies of messages and signals forms, some public school, officers' training corps, have received parcels containing 5 cwts. and 2¼ cwts. of Army Form C2121, which, after allowing for a liberal usage for legitimate purposes, it is estimated will last 57 years; and whether, in the interests of national economy, a more useful scheme can be devised for getting rid of Army stationery?
The forms referred to were not issued in response to indents, but are part of a surplus of obsolete war stocks, which were of no commercial value, and were taking up expensive storage since surrendered. They were printed on one side only, and were, therefore, distributed to units as scribbling paper. By a stupid error, far too much has been distributed. I am having inquiries made, in order to fix the responsibility.
Officers
asked the Secretary of State for War how many retired, Special Reserve, Territorial, and temporary officers were still being employed on 1st October, 1921?
The total number of retired, Special Reserve, Territorial, and temporary officers still employed by the War Department on 1st October, 1921, was 2,266, a reduction of 1,334 in the course of this financial year.
Royal Artillery (Commissions)
asked the Secretary of State for War when it is intended to cancel the provisions of Army Order No. 291, of 1920, re compulsory retirement of Royal Artillery subalterns, and thereby allow certain officers to serve until they are qualified for a pension instead of retiring them on half pay for five years with a gratuity; and whether the number of cadets commissioned from the Royal Military Academy and posted to the Royal Garrison Artillery has been on the increase since the Armistice?
Circumstances do not permit of the cancellation of this Army Order at present, and a definite date for its cancellation cannot be decided upon until the future establishment of the Royal Artillery has been settled and approved. The number of cadets commissioned from the Royal Military Academy into the Royal Artillery has not increased since the Armistice, although a reduction in the number posted to the Royal Field Artillery has resulted in a corresponding increase in the number posted to the Royal Garrison Artillery.
Bostall Heath Camp
asked the Secretary of State for War what steps, if any, have been taken to clear the war material and hut refuse from Bostall Heath, as promised some months ago; and whether he is aware that this would allow the ground to be used by the public and, in doing so, would provide employment for many men?
I understand that the contractor who is being employed on this work has already removed the material, and is proceeding to level the site. It is hoped that the work will be completed very shortly.
Machinery (Protection)
asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that hundreds of valuable lathes, planing machines, milling machines, and machinery of every description are lying exposed to the weather outside empty workshops; whether machinery already in position is being uprooted and placed outside; and if he will consider the utilisation of unemployed men and women to clean and grease this machinery and have it placed under cover until required?
The hon. Member has not indicated to what machinery or workshops he refers, but no War Department machinery is left long in the open unless it is only fit for disposal as scrap. Any machinery moved out-of-doors temporarily, for instance, during reorganisation of a workshop, is greased, kept clean and comes to no harm.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in the case of practically every workshop in Woolwich which is not at present occupied by workmen, valuable machinery has been placed in the open air by somebody's orders and is deteriorating every day in this inclement weather?
I am not aware of that.
Woolwich Arsenal (Discharges)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that continual discharges are taking place from Woolwich Arsenal; that there are thousands of unemployed workmen in Woolwich alone; that the discharges are due to some extent to the practice of allowing individual men to work on a piece-work basis; and whether, in view of the fact that the work is not of an urgent character and that by the abolition of piecework employment could be found for a larger number of men and further discharges possibly avoided, he will consider the possibility of suspending the practice in question during the present emergency?
I am fully sensible of the difficulty of providing full work for Woolwich Arsenal; but the hon. Member's suggestion is open to the serious objection that by encouraging the reduction of individual output it would increase the cost of production and so defeat itself by leading to reduction of orders and consequent further discharges.
If there is not an immediate prospect of another war, and thousands of men are working on a piecework basis, and there is a limit fixed upon jobs, as everyone well knows, is it not possible by a temporary—and merely a temporary—cessation of the piece-work practice to prevent the continuous and automatic discharge of 300 men every week at a time when the local authority are rushing to bankruptcy?
The only way we can prevent discharges is by giving plenty of work at Woolwich Arsenal.
If the Members of the Government who are concerned with the gravity of the situation in Eastern Europe will consider the relationship—
This is not the time to debate the matter.
Questions
Territorial Army (Staffs)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether the high charges for pay and allowances of the military staffs of divisions and brigades, Territorial Army, can be saved by abolishing all or most of the appointments, seeing that these officers only deal with drill and discipline, and that there is practically no concentrated drill except yearly in camp; is he aware that these officers have practically nothing to do except routine correspondence, which could be carried on by one staff officer in each command direct with the units, and thus expedite matters and save a great deal of expense at present incurred by the filtration of correspondence through several unnecessary channels; and will he say what was the cost per head to the State of each efficient Volunteer in the year 1906 and what is the cost to the State of each Territorial in 1921, inclusive of the overhead charges for salaries and allowances of divisional, brigade, and regimental staffs?
As regards the first part of the question, the whole matter is under consideration. As regards the second part, the cost per head of each efficient Volunteer in 1906, including all overhead charges and cost of regular establishment (other than non effective), was approximately £7 10s. a year. The corresponding figure for the Territorial Army in 1921 is approximately £36. The latter figure excludes certain initial expenditure on clothing, but it is higher than the normal owing to the fact that, while the numbers are not yet complete, the overhead charges are little less than those that will be required for the full establishment.
With regard to the first part of the question, does the right hon. Gentleman know whether the Geddes Committee have power to inquire into these appointments with a view to their reduction?
That Committee will make any inquiries it thinks proper from the War Office, but that is not what I refer to in my answer. The matter is under the consideration of the War Office.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give a pledge that, whatever saving is brought about in the Territorial Army, there will be no reduction in the training?
I cannot give any pledges on that subject, at the moment.
Ex-Service Men
War Office
asked the Secretary of State for War whether any and, if so, how many conscientious objectors are now being employed by the War Office; and how many ex-service men have been discharged from service with the War Office since the Armistice?
The answer to the first part of the question is none, and to the second 740. The latter figure includes cases of voluntary resignation and of transfer to other Government offices, as well as discharges due to reduction of work.
Education Grant (Mr. T. Imrie)
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that Mr. Thomas Imrie, 173, Pollok Street, Glasgow, an ex-service man, claimed an education grant to assist him to complete his university course of medicine, which was refused on the grounds that the claim was submitted two months beyond the time limit; that Mr. Imrie was sent overseas in 1918 under 19 years of age, and was unable to send in his application earlier, as owing to his Army service he had not previously been able to fulfil the required qualifications; what were the qualifications required of a candidate for a grant; why they were imposed; why a date was fixed as a time limit which excluded some candidates from obtaining the necessary qualifications; and whether the waiving of the time limit in regard to the man's age, when sent overseas, entitles him to any special consideration in regard to the time limit placed on the grant?
I am aware of the circumstances connected with Mr. Imrie's application for the grant in question and of the grounds on which it was refused. One of the principal conditions of eligibility for the grant was that the candidate should be accepted by the university or college authorities as qualified by previous education to commence an approved course. A rule fixing a time limit for applications had to be made in order to give some finality to the Training Grants Scheme; and it was not part of that scheme to offer higher education to ex-service men who could not fulfil the conditions of eligibility within a reasonable period after demobilisation. The circumstance mentioned in the last part of the question was duly considered, but I regret that I must answer in the negative.
Ministry of Pensions
asked the Minister of Pensions whether any and, if so, how many conscientious objectors are now being employed by the Ministry of Pensions; and how many ex-service men have been discharged from service with the Ministry of Pensions since the Armistice?
No conscientious objectors are employed by the Ministry. Discharges of ex-service men since the Armistice are estimated at about 400, the number due to causes other than inefficiency or misconduct being very small. During the same period the total number of ex-service men employed has risen by about 12,000.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Military Discipline
asked the Secretary of State for War under what specific provision, either paragraph of Royal Warrant, Section of any Act, Rule, or Order, the Ministry of Pensions is empowered or the Pensions Appeal Tribunal is competent to take direct cognisance of cases involving questions of military discipline and military duty alone which have not formed the subject of any action by the competent military authority, for the purpose of rejecting, within the meaning of Section 8 of the War Pensions (Administrative Provisions) Act, 1919, a claim for disablement; and whether, in the event of the existence of such specific authority, proceedings thereunder are subject to the rules governing the administration of justice according to the law of the land generally and to the provisions of the Army Act in particular?
I have been asked to reply to this question. Under Article 1 of the Royal Warrant a pension is only pay- able if the disablement is attributable to or aggravated by military service and is not due to the man's serious negligence or misconduct. The determination of these questions of fact rests, not with any military authority, but with the Minister of Pensions, from whom an appeal lies, under the War Pensions (Administrative Provisions) Act, 1919, to a Pension Appeal Tribunal. The decision of the tribunal is declared by the Act to be final.
Dublin War Pensions Committee
asked the Minister of Pensions why Mr. D. F. Gillman, who is not an ex-service man, is retained in the position of secretary of the County Dublin War Pensions Committee, considering that he is a whole-time officer of the County Dublin Agricultural and Technical Committee and a paid official of the Institute of Civil Engineers in Ireland; whether the staff of the County Dublin War Pensions Committee are engaged on work of the County Dublin Agricultural and Technical Committee and the Institute of Civil Engineers, to the detriment of pensions work; and what steps he proposes to take to have this injustice remedied and instal an ex-service man as secretary to the County Dublin War Pensions Committee?
I understand that Mr. Gillman performs certain duties for the County Dublin Agricultural and Technical Committee and the Institute of Engineers, occupying in all about one hour of his time each day, but that he devotes considerably more than the recognised official hours of his duties as Secretary to the War Pensions Committee. The remainder of the staff of the War Pensions Committee are engaged exclusively on pensions work. Local committees have been urged to apply the recommendations of the Lytton Committee to their staffs, but until the Ministry assumes direct control of local offices under the provisions of the War Pensions Act, 1921, the initiative as regards substitution still remains with the local committee.
Labour Corps (Henry Angel)
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that Henry Angel, 25, Parmiter Street, E., late private, No. 75640, Labour Corps, who lost his wife during his war service and placed his children in the care of the Church Army after her death, has been refused payment of allowances for those children at motherless rates while he is undergoing treatment; that this refusal is stated to be based on the fact that Angel has not contributed to the maintenance of these children since May, 1920; whether, since Angel has been on treatment allowances from 3rd April, 1920, to 1st February, 1921, and again from 5th February, 1921, to the present date, he is aware that it would have been impossible for the man to contribute when he is expressly debarred from earning whilst drawing treatment allowances; that these children will have to be handed over to the care of the guardians unless the allowances to which their father is entitled are granted; and whether he will take steps to have this obvious injustice remedied?
My right hon. Friend is considering this matter.
May I put the question down for Thursday?
Please.
Questions
Constantinople (Labour Newspapers)
asked the Secretary of State for War why the general officer commanding the Allied forces at Constantinople has forbidden the circulation or publication of the Labour newspaper in Constantinople while allowing capitalist organs to circulate?
Inquiries will be made, but the General Officer Commanding the Allied Forces is now in London and informs me that he has not forbidden the circulation or publication of the labour or any other newspaper in Constantinople during the past year. The question of censorship and the control and publication of newspapers generally is one that is dealt with by the Allied High Commissioners, and not by the General Officer Commanding the Allied Forces of Occupation.
West Indies (Repeesentative Government)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any, and, if so, what steps have been taken to meet the demands of the people of Trinidad and Tobago for representative government?
I propose to look into this question during my forthcoming visit to the Colony, and meanwhile I have no doubt that the hon. Member will not expect me to make any statement on the subject.
Bolshevist and Communist Propaganda
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Government is in a position to make an authoritative statement regarding the seriousness of Bolshevist agitation and activity in this country; what is the Government policy; and what does it propose to do?
I am not in a position to make such a statement. The Government are watching the situation very carefully.
What steps do the Government intend to take to stamp out this virus, which is poisoning the life of the nation?
I am not so sure that it is having that serious effect.
asked the Home Secretary if he is in a position to state what is the weekly income and expenditure of the organised Communists in this country; from what source they derive the money to carry on an active and pernicious agitation; if he can say how much per week is subecribed by the labouring members of such Communist clubs; and if his attention has been called to the exceptionally large number of criminals identified with the movement?
I cannot give precise information as to the income and expenditure of the Communist organisation. Their sources of income are members' subscriptions (3d. a week from each member of the Communist party), collections at meetings, sale of papers and pamphlets, and such subsidies as they may receive from abroad. Several of the Communists who have been organising trouble among the unemployed have previous convictions for criminal offences.
Has the right hon. Gentleman carried out any investigations as to the source of payment of those gentlemen who broke up the British Empire Union meeting?
There has not been time to do that.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not forget it.
asked the Home Secretary if his attention has been called to the increasing activity of the Communists in this country; if he is aware that two or more active Russian Bolshevik revolutionaries are attached to the majority of the Communist clubs; if recruiting for an armed force is in progress, and that secret orders are issued prior to every unemployed demonstration to resist the police and create as much disorder as possible; and what action, if any, is being taken by the police to arrest and deport all alien mischief makers who are following no usfeul employment but are being well paid for the activity they show?
I have given much attention to this matter. There are many persons of foreign extraction connected with the Communist groups, but I cannot give the numbers, and most of them, though of alien parentage, are British subjects. There have been attempts to recruit for a Red Army, but they have had little, if any, success. In some cases the unemployed have been incited to resist the police. Aliens who can be proved to have incited to violence or have committed other offences against the law are deported if this course is practicable.
Has any action been taken in the case of the battle of Shaftesbury Avenue?
I am afraid my history is defective.
Has any action been taken in connection with the Communists who tore down the Union Jack at the meeting at the Central Hall on Friday last?
That is one of the questions I have just answered.
Could not the children of aliens who the right hon. Gentleman says are British subjects have their naturalisation papers cancelled?
It is not a question of naturalisation papers.
Whist Drives
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the action of the police in stopping whist drives in certain localities; why this is done in one place and not in others; why the game of whist is singled out; and whether he can undertake to promote legislation to revise and amend the Gaming Acts in the light of experience gained?
My attention has been drawn to some such cases. The matter is one in which the police authorities of different districts act on their own responsibility according to the circumstances, which vary widely. Whist drives are not singled out, but they are more common than other games of cards. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware it is announced in the papers that the police at Woking have taken action to stop a whist drive there. If a whist drive is illegal at Woking, and perhaps legal in London, would it not be well to have a rule regulating the action of the police all over the country?
Circumstances vary widely in different places.
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman legalise whist drives once and for all?
In the circumstances of a particular case, it might mean the keeping of a gaming house.
Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the particular case of Woking, and see if that amounted to a gaming house?
If a whist drive were arranged by Communists for the purpose of organising propaganda, would that be stopped?
When is a whist drive not a whist drive?
Scotland
River Elchaig (Footbridges)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that the wooden footbridge across the River Elchaig, which was built with money granted by the Government some 25 years ago, is dangerous to the Camuslanie school children, who have to use this bridge to go to school at Killalan, Kintail, West Ross-shire, their only means of getting to school when the river is in spate; that the education authorities of Kintail threaten to bring the parents of children at Camuslanie before the sheriff for non-attendance; that when the Elchaig is in flood carts for Camuslanie have to wait for days to ford the river, the only access to Camuslanie township; that even when the river is low the children have to ford the river in all weathers to get to school; and, in view of these facts, will he take steps to have a traffic bridge made across the Elchaig and, employ the unemployed in that parish to do this work during the coming winter, seeing that there will be considerable unemployment in Kintail this winter and this matter is very urgent?
My right hon. Friend has not received any representations as to the condition of this footbridge, or as to its effect on the attendance at school of the children of the district. The question of inaugurating suitable works of public utility for the relief of unemployment in any district is one for consideration by the appropriate local authority to whom instructions as to procedure in this matter have recently been issued.
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that the County Council of Ross-shire consider it is not their business to repair the foot bridge across the River Elchaig, Kintail, West Ross-shire, near the school house, Killalan, seeing that this bridge is not connected with a county road, it being a quarter of a mile from the Ardelve-Killalan county road, and about three miles from the terminus of the county road at Bundaloch; that the present foot bridge has been kept in repair by the south-western district sub-committee of the County Council of Ross-shire, but that they now decline to do so, as the bridge does not terminate with a county road; will he consider the question of employing the unemployed this winter to continue the county road from Bundaloch to the footbridge and to Camuslanie, seeing that the County Council of Ross-shire would be willing to take this road on the county provided a traffic bridge was built; and is he aware that the expense would be light, material available being at hand, including larch trees, and the advantage to the whole district would be very considerable, seeing that the only means at present of crossing Loch Long is by ferry at Dornie, which causes much delay and is a great hindrance to the development of the West Coast, seeing that it is the only road available from the South to Lochalsh and to Kyle, the port for the island of Skye, and that this footbridge was originally built by order of the chairman of the school parochial board some 25 years ago with a grant from the Government?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, but my right hon. Friend will consider any representations which may be addressed to him on the subject. With regard to the latter part of the question, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the latter part of my reply to the preceding question.
What has it cost to print these two questions?
Land Reclamation and Drainage
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in view of the unemployment obtaining at present, he is satisfied with the powers possessed by Scottish county councils to undertake operations in rivers or riverbeds for the improvement of drainage or other purposes; and, if not, whether he will apply such portions of the English Drainage Acts to Scotland as may be necessary to enable Scottish county councils to give employment by schemes of this kind?
County councils in Scotland have no statutory powers to undertake the operations referred to. In connection with the relief of unemployment, proposals are under consideration for offering financial inducements to persons interested to undertake field drainage and land improvement. I am afraid I cannot promise legislation on the lines suggested.
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that the powers of burgh councils in Scotland for the acquisition of land for reclamation or drainage in order to give employment are declared to be deficient; and whether, in view of the usefulness of this form of employment, he will empower the Scottish Board of Agriculture or other authority to acquire such land, and thereafter by lease or otherwise to enable the burgh council concerned to operate upon it, or take such other steps as may seem advisable to remove the difficulty indicated?
No representations, in the sense suggested in the first part of the question, have reached my right hon. Friend, but, in any case, he has no authority to confer additional powers upon the authorities mentioned.
Can the right hon. Gentleman answer the second part of my question?
I think the point is covered by the answer. The Secretary for Scotland has no power to do this under any Statute.
May I give an instance of a burgh which has given employment by reclaiming all its own land and all the land it can buy? I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman he should undertake to enable that burgh to borrow in order to purchase further land and thus deal with the question of unemployment.
I will put that case to my right hon. Friend for consideration, but I do not know of any statutory power under which an Order of that kind could be made.
If any such arrangement is made, will it provide for due compensation for the Scottish landlords who are being taxed and rated to extinction?
That does not arise out of the question on the Paper.
Highland Stallion Pony, Kintail
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that the Highland stallion pony which travelled this season in Kintail and the surrounding district is light of bone and small and his stock is not considered suitable for that mountainous district, and that consequently his produce does not fetch remunerative prices; and will he consider the question of sending a stronger Highland pony to travel in that district next season?
I have been asked to reply to this question. I am informed that the stallion referred to was considered suitable for the purposes of the small farmers in the Kintail district, and that no representations to the contrary have been received by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland. Provided the Highland Pony Breeding Scheme is continued next year, the Board will endeavour to supply an animal of a heavier type if the people in the district so desire.
Is the right hon Gentleman aware that the Highland stallion pony does not breed stock capable of carrying a 15-stone pack down a hill?
Small Holdings
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been drawn to criticism by county agricultural committees of the administration of the Scottish Small Holdings Acts; and whether he will consider the advisability of setting up an expert committee to investigate the whole question?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the latter part, my right hon. Friend does not consider that the appointment of a Committee of Inquiry is necessary.
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that throughout Scotland at present, and particularly in Caithness, Sutherland, Ayrshire, and Islay, proprietors of land on which there are small holdings are offering their estates or individual holdings for sale; that this is causing alarm amongst smallholders, who are confronted with the alternative of enforced purchase of their holdings or being faced by applications for resumption by the new proprietors of their holdings; that the Scottish Land Court in their last Report have called attention to the large numbers of applications for resumption; that the procedure for resumption now being resorted to by the landholders, under the Small Landholders Act of 1911, is resulting in defeating fixity of tenure, which it was the purpose of that Act to secure; and whether legislation will be introduced to deal with this urgent matter?
With regard to the first part of the question, my right hon. Friend has no detailed information as to the position in the areas mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend, but he is aware that in their last Report the Scottish Land Court referred to a gradual increase in the number of applications by landlords for authority to resume small holdings for the purpose of personally residing on and cultivating the holdings. The number of such cases, however, appears to be comparatively small. This right of resumption has existed since the institution of the crofters' tenure, and I am not prepared to say that a, case for legislation to modify or remove it has been made out.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that criticism of the kind referred to requires an answer?
That criticism was answered by the Board of Agriculture in a letter published in the Press last September.
Has not the number of these cases increased enormously during the last year or two, and has not a new situation arisen?
I think that my hon Friend is misinformed as to the facts. There are only a few such cases altogether.
Has not the Land Court report said that there was a large number?
Is it not utterly unreasonable to charge against these Scottish landowners, who are reluctantly driven to sell, that they are thereby persecuting smallholders?
I do not think that there is any foundation for the suggestion that the landowners are persecuting smallholders.
Is it not due to the fact that there is a number of War profiteers buying the land in these parts for sporting estates?
Post Office
Continental Air Post
asked the Post master-General the number of cities on the Continent which are directly connected with London by air post; and what are the possibilities for a further extension of this important service?
There are direct air mail services between London and Paris and between London and Amsterdam. The service between London and Brussels is at present suspended in consequence of a fire which took place at the Brussels aerodrome at the end of September. The Post Office and the Air Ministry are working together with a view to developing the air post wherever practicable.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to make enquiries as to the possibility of connecting the Paris mail with the regular daily air mail which goes from Paris to Prague and Warsaw, as it would be a great convenience from the point of view of carrying letters to the middle of the Continent?
Yes, Sir. A number of enquiries covering other places besides those mentioned by my hon. Friend are now being made. I will give particular attention to the point to which he refers?
Do these services pay their way, or are they a charge on the taxpayer?
They are no charge on the taxpayers. The use of them made by the public is, I regret to say, very limited, but we get from the public all the charges we have to make.
Does it involve a loss?
No.
Delays
asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the fact that Messrs. Gooch, Limited, of Brompton Road, Kensington, despatched a parcel to a customer in Paris on the 28th July last in respect of which they paid a fee for postage, insurance, etc., of 6s. 1½d.; whether this parcel was returned to Messrs. Gooch on the 3rd August with an intimation that the said parcel was returned as it had been ½d. overstamped; whether the parcel was reposted the same day, a new receipt for 6s. 1d. instead of 6s. 1½d. being given; whether the parcel has never since been heard of; whether, after months of delay and correspondence, Messrs. Gooch have been unable to obtain any satisfactory explanations or information in the matter; and what action he now proposes to take?
I cannot trace any correspondence with the firm who posted the parcel referred to, but if they will supply me with further particulars I will have full inquiries made.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that not only has the Post Office been officially communicated with several times in this matter, but that he himself has had personal letters addressed to him from the firm; and will he explain, apart from the facts as stated in this case, why in this case and in many others there is this enormous delay in dealing with complaints by the Post Office—often lasting for several months?
I am afraid I am getting very sceptical with regard to charges made against the Post Office, but I can say in this case that if my hon. Friend or the firm in question will let me have the papers, I will see that inquiries are made, and they shall be made by me personally.
Thank you.
asked the Post-master-General whether he is aware that frequently postal packets containing drugs for medicinal use are held up for over a fortnight when the same are urgently required by hospitals, general practitioners, and the public generally; and if he can promise any assistance to accelerate delivery of medicinal goods required urgently for public health?
I understand the hon. Member to refer to packets from abroad. If the hon. Member will give me details of any particular cases I will have inquiry made.
Air Mails, London to Australia
asked the Postmaster General whether, and at what rate, he would be willing to guarantee a ton of mail matter per week from London to Australia in the event of a firm, or combination of firms, of sufficient standing and repute being prepared to run a weekly aeroplane service in organised stages from London to Australia, the entire distance to be covered in, say, five days?
If a weekly aeroplane service can be established from London to Australia, I shall be prepared to consider the question of employing it for the conveyance of mails. The quantity of mails available, and the price to be paid for their carriage, would depend on the amount of the extra fee which would have to be charged for the service, and on its speed and reliability, which it would, in present conditions, be difficult to determine beforehand.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be willing to consider the matter and give some sort of approximate idea of the amount of mails he could guarantee?
I should like to see something like a definite undertaking that it is possible to carry out anything like the service which my hon. Friend suggests. If he can give me that information, I shall be glad to consider it sympathetically.
Questions
Yugo-Slav Debt
asked the Prime Minister what the Yugo-Slav debt to this country is, and if any part of it has been paid?
The debt of the Serb-Croat-Slovene Government to His Majesty's Government is £22,265,142, together with interest from 1st January, 1920, in respect of War advances; and £1,857,827, together with interest, in respect of reconstruction advances. No part of these debts has been repaid.
Is it not a fact that something like 90 per cent. of the Yugo-Slav budget goes to the upkeep of their army, and also that they are attacking the neutral country of Albania; and cannot this Government make the suggestion that they should begin to pay their debts instead of destroying other people's territories?
Part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question is argumentative, and the other part is not relevant.
Unemployment
Insurance
asked the Prime Minister whether he is prepared to recommend the appointment of a Royal Commission, or summon a national industrial conference to consider the whole question of unemployment insurance, particularly with regard to the relation between contributions and wages and profits, and the average amount of unemployment in each industry?
I have been asked to reply. The period since the commencement of the first Unemployment Insurance Act has been so exceptional in its character, consisting as it does to a large extent of the War period and the three years since the Armistice, that I do not think it would serve any useful purpose to adopt my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion at the present time. The present rates of contributions are abnormal, and it would be desirable to know the effect of the normal scheme over a period before attempting to draw any definite conclusions with regard to its operation.
asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware of the unfair operation of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1921, in respect to the six days continuously being off work; does he know that while one pit, which has three days worked in two weeks and eight days off, would get no relief or payment, another pit, which works five days in two weeks, could get one week's pay under the Act; and, if so, will he see that the payment is put on a better principle of equity?
I would draw my hon. Friend's attention to answers on previous questions on this subject, copies of which I am sending him. The provision to which he refers is contained in the Unemployment Insurance Acts themselves, and I have no power to modify it. The statement of the cases as given in the question is too incomplete to enable me to say how much benefit would be payable—but I shall be glad to make inquiry if my hon. Friend will supply further particulars.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one man may have 50s. for five days and another man only 40s., and that the man who gets 50s. gets 15s. benefit?
If cases of that sort are not covered by the answers to the previous questions, which I am sending to the hon. Member, perhaps he will bring them to my notice, and I will see how far it can be done under the Acts.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the provision laid down in the Act in regard to these matters is having a very serious effect in the districts where there is continuous short time, but not sufficiently continuous to warrant coming within the provisions of the Acts?
Sewerage Scheme, Westbury
asked the Minister of Health whether he has received any representations regarding the unemployment existing in the Westbury district of Wiltshire; whether he is aware that the urban council are anxious to start a sewerage scheme which would provide employment for a number of men, but owing to the state of their finances, declare that it is utterly impossible for them to proceed; and whether consideration will be given to the scheme in question, with a view to some financial assistance being rendered to enable the local authority to put the work in hand?
The most recent information which I have received was that the position as regards unemployment in this area was not such as to warrant the Ministry of Labour certifying the district for a grant. I am, however, making further inquiry, and will communicate again with the hon. Member.
Public Works (Government Grant)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Health whether the second paragraph of sub-heading II of the memorandum accompanying the Supplementary Estimates, dated 19th October, means that local authorities will receive for approved public works of a non-revenue producing character 65 per cent. of the annual interest and loan repayment charges for the full period of the loan provided the loan period does not exceed fifteen years, and if so, will he advise local authorities accordingly?
No, Sir. The Government grant towards non-revenue producing works will be paid for a period not exceeding half the period of the loan, but the grant will not in any case be paid for more than 15 years.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the memorandum issued on the Supplementary Estimates there is no reference whatever to half the period of the loan?
The memorandum may not be quite clear, but I think that the circular issued by the Department on the instructions of the Cabinet is quite clear.
Questions
Washington Conference
asked the Prime Minister if, in view of the likelihood that purely commercial matters will be directly or indirectly affected by the diplomatic discussions at Washington, he will state the name and functions of the trade adviser in the British delegation?
Sir Hubert Llewellyn Smith is attached to the British Empire Delegation at the Washington Conference, and his functions will be to advise the Delegation regarding the economic aspects of questions that arise at the Conference.
Elections
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government will take into consideration the desirability of legislation to ensure that in any election, either for Parliament or for local authorities of any sort, an agreed on and fixed percentage of voters, say, 70 per cent. of the electors, shall be required to vote at the poll before such election is recognised as valid; and whether he will consider the appointment of a Select Committee to discuss this matter as well as the principle of the compulsory vote?
No, Sir, I do not think that the adoption of my hon. Friend's proposal is desirable.
Russia
British Refugees
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the distress existing among the repatriated British refugees from Russia whose property has been confiscated by the Bolshevik Government, and many of whom are consequently in a state of destitution; whether he is aware that such refugees are now being referred by the British Refugees Relief Committee to the local boards of guardians, and that many who occupied good positions and possessed ample means before the Russian revolution will be compelled to enter the workhouses unless some provision is made for them; and whether, when arranging for the relief of the famine-stricken districts of Russia, he will consider the claims of these British subjects for whom the British Government is unable to obtain redress from the present Russian Soviet Government?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The funds at the disposal of the British Refugees Relief Committee only permitted them to assist a few of those refugees who landed in this country before 31st March last. No further funds will be available after the present financial year, and the Committee have, therefore, been obliged to inform the refugees that they must apply to the guardians for relief. As regards the last part of the question, I regret that I can add nothing to the reply which I returned to the hon. and gallant Member for South-port (Lieut.-Colonel White) on 27th October.
Does the hon. Gentleman suggest that the nation owes no duty to these people who have suffered in Russia? Are we to leave them absolutely destitute?
I do not think it is a question of national obligation.
Will these unfortunate people not get some grant out of the Red Cross Fund, which is being subscribed to for the relief of Russians at the present time?
I do not think so, but I could not give an answer on that point without notice.
Will the hon. Gentleman inquire into that matter and see if anything can be done?
The hon. Baronet cannot be allowed a supplementary question every time.
Famine (Food Supplies)
asked the Prime Minister if he can give the House any information as to the progress of the famine in Russia; if the Soviet Government has interrupted, and is now interrupting, the grain and other food sent by the Allies and sympathisers with the victims generally; and if he can give the death rate from starvation or give any indication as to the efforts being made by the supply of seed, etc., to cultivate the land?
According to the latest information, based on reports made to the All-Russian Executive Committee in Moscow last month, the Soviet Government proposes to devote 160,000,000 poods of grain, raised from European Russia and the Ukraine, to the feeding of the famine areas. They calculated that in order to provide sufficient food for the whole of the famine stricken, an additional 60,000,000 poods must be obtained from abroad within the next six months. The answer to the second part of the question is, so far as His Majesty's Government are aware, in the negative. As regards the last part, I have no reliable information to give the House. Judging from accounts received from reliable sources, it appears that the Soviet Government has imported a quantity of seed, which has been distributed to the peasants and actually sown by them.
Russian Refugees in Egypt
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the number of Russian refugees in Egypt has been reduced in the last three months; and what is the cost of retaining them per annum to the British taxpayer?
Seventy Russian refugees have left Egypt during the last three months. The total cost of the maintenance of Russian refugees in Egypt and the dependent camps in Cyprus is at the rate of £120,000 a year.
Questions
Empire Overseas Settlement
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the promotion of Empire overseas settlement by means of assisted passages, etc., is not likely to prove successful in the present and near future on account of the measure of unemployment which exists in the overseas Dominions, his attention has been drawn to the record of the proceedings of the Conference on State-Aided Empire Settlement held in February, 1921; whether he will give earnest consideration to the desirability of adopting the proposals put forward by Senator the Honourable E. D. Millen, made on behalf of the Australian Government, recommending a scheme for establishing 20,000 British settlers on certain selected areas to be financed by a Commonwealth loan of £20,000,000 to be raised in five annual instalments, His Majesty's Government's assistance to take the form of a payment for five years of half the interest of each instalment of the loan, and the comprehensive settlement schemes to be promoted there under to include the work of the opening up of areas by railways and roads, the construction of other public works, and the clearing of land, etc., which would provide employment for many of the intending settlers, and, in addition, give employment to many workers in this country in the manufacture of the necessary materials and steel rails, etc., required in connection with such schemes; and whether, whereas 60,000 settlers have already been settled overseas since the War, there are another 60,000 applicants awaiting settlement in the Empire?
I have been asked to reply to this question. The proposal put forward by Senator Millen goes beyond the scheme sanctioned by the Resolution of the Prime Ministers' Conference. Fresh proposals have, however, been under discussion recently in Australia, similar to those put forward by Senator Millen, and it is understood that further proposals of this kind are likely to be made. His Majesty's Government have under consideration the steps that can usefully be taken by them in order to implement the Resolution passed by the Conference; and, in deciding their general policy in this important problem of Empire settlement, careful regard will be paid to all such proposals as those referred to above. The Government do not doubt that larger numbers of persons would be glad to avail themselves of increased opportunities for settlement overseas if, in concert with the Dominion Governments, the necessary arrangements can be made.
Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that, after all, this form of emigration is by far the most practical form, having regard to the conditions in our overseas possessions as well as here, and that every man established abroad under these conditions is a potential purchaser of British goods to a far greater extent than when he is in this country?
I can assure my hon. Friend that the Government are entirely alive to all those considerations, and, as I said in my answer, the fullest consideration will be given to these proposals when they are brought forward.
Are the Government also alive to the fact that people in this country would rather remain here with their friends and relations?
Is it not a fact that there are 60,000 more applicants to go overseas?
All that I aimed at pointing out in my answer was that the Government were fully aware, as I think the House is aware, that if people in this country desire opportunities of going overseas, those opportunities should be given them.
Education
Male Teachers
asked the President of the Board of Education what were the numbers of boys entering the teaching profession in 1912, 1913, 1919 and 1920; what steps he is taking to induce an increase in such entrants; and if he will again alter bursar conditions to suit the needs of the case?
The number of boys reported to the Board as preparing for the teaching profession in the four years mentioned, were as follow:
asked the President of the Board of Education what are the number of men teachers compared with the number of boys in elementary and secondary schools; how many boys in elementary and secondary schools are being taught by women; and if he pro poses to consider still further steps to increase the number of men teachers?
The number of men teachers employed in public elementary schools in England and Wales on the 31st March, 1920, was 38,469, and the number of boys on the registers of those schools on that date was 2,995,908. I cannot say how many boys are being taught by women teachers, but 9,090 women teachers are employed in schools for boys only, and 57,452 in schools for boys and girls. On the 31st March, 1921, there were 7,967 men teachers and 2,730 women teachers employed in grant-aided secondary schools in En-gland and Wales, which are attended by boys only or by boys and girls. The number of boys in those schools on the 1st October, 1920, was 173,653. I cannot say how many boys in these schools are taught wholly or partly by women; but in schools for boys only, women teachers are, generally speaking, confined to the youngest classes. I do not at present think there is any need for me to take special steps for the purpose suggested.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the grave danger of the overcrowding of women teachers in connection with the education of boys?
Is not the Question of equality far more important than the question of sex?
The Board of Education consider that the provision of male teachers is sufficient in the existing circumstances according to the policy they have adopted.
Education Act, 1918
asked the President of the Board of Education how much the Education Act of 1918 would cost to put into force at the present moment; and whether he is now able to state any date on which the Act is to come into operation?
The whole of the Education Act, 1918, is already in force, with the exception of Sub-sections (1) and (2) of Section 8, Section 14, and Section 10, which is operative only in certain areas. It was always recognised that the process of giving full effect to the Act must be a gradual one, and any estimate of the expenditure which would be involved if the system of public education contemplated by the Act were developed to its fullest extent immediately would be altogether speculative.
Is there any guarantee that the public revenue will increase in proportion as the cost of this Act matures?
I am wholly unable to give any estimate as to an increase or a decrease in the public revenue.
Is the taxpayer to be left to face the millions which this Act will cost?
Questions
Rhine Army of Occupation
asked the Prime Minister whether he has been notified by the Government of the United States of America that their army of occupation is about to be withdrawn from Coblenz; if so, by what power the occupation of that portion of the Rhine will be undertaken; and, in view of the bitter feeling that has already been aroused, will he say that the occupying force will consist wholly of white troops?
The United States Government have notified their intention to reduce the strength of their army of occupation on the Rhine. The question whether or not it will be necessary to replace these troops has not as yet been decided.
If it is decided to replace troops, will our Government make representations according to the latter part of my question?
I cannot add anything to what I have said.
Warships and Stores (Transfer to Canada)
asked the Prime Minister whether two destroyers, two submarines, and one cruiser have been handed over to the Dominion of Canada; if so, by whom was this transfer authorised, and at whose request was it made; and whether any conditions were laid down as to the use of the ships and, if so, what?
I have been asked to reply. The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The transfer was authorised by the British Government, and was made as the result of an offer of surplus war vessels to Dominion Governments as gifts in cases where such vessels were needed to assist the Dominions in the development of their naval forces. No conditions were made beyond those implied in the terms of the offer, that is, that the vessels would be maintained as ships of war.
asked the Prime Minister whether, since the Armistice, supplies of munitions and warlike stores have been handed over by any Department to the Government of the Dominion of Canada; if so, what is the amount and value of the stores transferred; on what conditions, by whose request, and for what consideration have they been given?
I am taking steps to obtain the information asked for by the hon. Member.
Summer Time
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the great inconvenience caused to travellers by the change from summer to normal time taking place on different dates, he will arrange with the French Government for the same date being, if possible, adopted in future?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The matter has already been under the consideration of the two Governments, and I hope it may be possible to find some solution.
Syria (Currency)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the new unit of currency introduced into Syria has any backing of gold or bills of exchange or securities?
Under Article III of the decree providing for the issue of the new currency, which came into operation on the 1st May, 1920, the notes of the Bank of Syria are convertible on demand into cheques on Paris. Issues made for the Treasury in Paris are to be covered by a book credit. Issues can only be made for the commercial operations of the Bank of Syria in exchange either for foreign currency or for foreign bills, which, with the credits opened at the Treasury in Paris, will constitute the cover for the circulation.
Excise and Pensions Officer, Penrhyndendraeth
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in appointing a successor to Mr. D. A. Silver, Excise and Pensions Officer at Penrhyndendraeth, County of Merioneth, he will select an officer who is conversant with the Welsh language?
An officer conversant with the Welsh language has already been appointed to succeed Mr. Silver.
National Expenditure
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has yet secured a reduction in next year's Estimates to the amount of £130,000,000, referred to in his speech of 13th August last, and required by the Treasury Circular of 13th May last; if not, what reduction has been effected to date; and whether the present financial situation will necessitate a greater reduction than £130,000,000 to secure a balance of expenditure and revenue in next year's Budget?
As regards the first part of the question, the provisional Estimates rendered by Departments in reply to the Treasury Circular of 13th May last show a reduction of estimated expenditure on Ordinary Supply Services of approximately £75,000,000; but until those Estimates have been examined by the Treasury and the Committee on National Expenditure, and the Report of the Committee has been received, it is impossible to say what reduction will be effected in the Estimates for 1922–23. As regards the second part of the question, I would ask the hon. Member to await the statement which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will make on the Consolidated Fund Bill.
Inland Revenue (Conscientious Objectors)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any and, if so, how many conscientious objectors are now being employed by the Inland Revenue Department; and how many ex-service men have been discharged from service with the Inland Revenue Department since the Armistice?
Ten men, all permanent civil servants, who obtained exemption from military service on conscientious grounds, and accepted alternative service, are at present employed in the Inland Revenue Department. Save on grounds of inefficiency or misconduct, and with the further exception of a very few men especially engaged for limited periods to meet a passing emergency, no ex-service men have hitherto been discharged. An impending reduction in staff of the Valuation Office has, however, involved giving notice to 19 ex-service temporary valuers in common with 33 non-service members of the same class, in view of the fact that the work of that office no longer justifies their retention.
What steps has the hon. Gentleman taken to remove this scandal from his Department?
Will he have them crucified?
It is undesirable that the hon. Member's personal opinion should be brought into the question.
Safeguarding of Industries Act
Goods (Clearance)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that goods which arrived in London ex ss. "Phœnix" on the 1st October and others which arrived on the same ship at her next entry on the 10th instant, and others again on the same ship on the 17th instant, also goods ex ss. "Albatross" which arrived on the 4th October and again on the 10th instant, also goods ex ss. "Schwann," which arrived on the 13th instant, are still unobtainable owing to the formalities insisted upon by His Majesty's Board of Customs; that at least 20,000 packages are now held up by the Department; and is he prepared to take drastic action to secure prompt modification of the cumbersome methods which make such congestion possible?
The non-removal of the goods referred to is not due to Customs formalities, and so far as the Department is concerned delivery can be obtained without delay when the Customs entry has been presented and the goods produced for examination. The Customs Department is making every effort to facilitate the clearance of goods, and I cannot admit the suggestion that delay is due to any cumbersome procedure on the part of that Department.
Who is responsible for holding these goods up? People want to get them but cannot.
In the absence of further particulars, I can only inform the hon. Member that on the completion of the formalities I have described the goods can be obtained at once, and that the initiative for releasing the goods in this and other cases which have been brought to my attention entirely depends on the importer and not on the Customs.
All these packages are numbered, with date of shipment, and yet they are unable to obtain them. You have them in your possession.
Toilet Face Powders
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that recently a consignment of toilet face powders was detained by His Majesty's Customs owing to the official in charge demanding a declaration from the importer as to the nature of any fine chemicals contained in the powder; whether, in view of the fact that the ingredients of this commodity are a trade secret which the maker refuses to divulge, the House can be informed what the Board proposes to do with the case; whether these goods are to be considered exempt from duty under Clause 4 of Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act; and whether he will give instructions to the Customs officials accordingly so that they may know how to deal in future with matters of this kind, and so eliminate the delays to which traders are at the moment subjected?
In the absence of definite particulars of importation, the consignment referred to cannot be identified. If, however, the hon. Member will furnish these particulars, I will have further inquiry made into the case.
Does the Government employ a staff of chemists to identify the component parts of these and other articles that may be imported?
I do not know how that may be, but if in regard to the identification of any consignment the hon. Member will give me particulars, I will make inquiries.
Customs (Passing Entries)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that on the morning of the 28th ultimo the officers of His Majesty's Customs informed Messrs. Gerhard and Hey, Limited, collecting and clearing agents, that, owing to the enormous amount of work already in hand under the Key In- dustries Act, they refused to accept any current entries until the accumulation had been disposed of, and will he state what action he proposes to take to deal with this state of affairs?
My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has this morning made special inquiries at the London Custom House, and finds that nothing is known there of any such statement as that attributed to the Department by Messrs. Gerhard and Hey. I may add that such a statement would have been contrary to the facts, as the work there of passing entries for goods liable to duty under Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act is absolutely up to date. I am obliged to the hon. Member for giving me this opportunity of stating the real position.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this took place, not merely on Friday, but again on Saturday? Has he communicated with this firm, who are one of the largest trading firms in the City of London?
The result of the inquiries which have been made is that no such statement was made.
Is that an ex parte statement?
Are not these complaints made very largely by persons who wish to raise an agitation against this Act?
Questions
Pitwood (Railway Rates)
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that the home-grown pitwood trade cannot compete with imported pitwood owing to the fact that the average price for the foreign timber is 30s. per ton, whilst the average railway rates from, Cardiganshire and Radnorshire to South Wales collieries is 21s., thus leaving 9s. only to cover cost of timber, cutting, hauling, putting on to rail, and profit; and whether he will give this matter his immediate attention, seeing that the railway rates are seriously affecting, not only the home-grown pit-wood trade, but every class of business?
I understand that the average- price of foreign timber delivered at South Wales collieries is substantially higher than the figure quoted by the hon. Member, and I am informed that the average railway rate from Cardiganshire and Radnorshire is less than 21s. a ton. The question of reducing these rates is a matter which is now within the discretion of the railway companies. I would remind my hon. Friend of the provisions of Section 60 of the Railways Act, 1921, under which any representative body of traders may apply to the Railway Rates Tribunal to reduce railway charges.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that large numbers of men are unemployed in these districts because of the high railway rates, and that if the rates were reduced to a reasonable level these men would be profitably employed and so save an enormous expense to the rates?
The reduction of any item of cost tends to promote employment, but the items of cost have to have regard to the influence on the business which will pay those costs. The Railway Act makes the necessary provision for revision.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that traders have made representations to the railway companies, under the Clauses of the Act, for reduced rates, and will he use his good offices to expedite reduction in order to increase employment?
The point is important but somewhat difficult. There is a judicial tribunal established to deal with these matters, and it would therefore be improper for the Ministry of Transport to use pressure in the matter which may be judicially determined.
In view of the fact that another Government Department at the present time is urging landowners to re-afforest and also suggesting that the State should do so, will the hon. Gentleman give particular attention to this question of the rates on home grown timber, which at the present time are so prohibitive that no one can sell or grow timber at a profit?
I cannot usefully add anything to what I have said. We always have this question of railway rates under consideration, and traders now have definite rights which they had not before, and which it is competent for them to exercise in their own interests.
Will the right hon. Gentleman supply a list of the rates to the Board of Agriculture which will give them some necessary information on the subject?
They have that information.
Trade Boards
asked the Minister of Labour whether he has received resolutions from many chambers of commerce on the question of the abolition of trade boards to the effect that the rigidity of the regulations tends towards increasing unemployment at the present time; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter?
I have received representations from a number of sources on the subject of the operation of the Trade Boards Acts, and I have appointed a Committee under the chairmanship of Lord Cave to inquire into the working and effects of the Acts and to report what changes, if any, are required. This Committee is now receiving evidence from the various interests concerned.
Ireland
Rosturk Castle
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that Rosturk Castle, County Mayo, has been seized and occupied by the Irish Republican Army; and what steps he proposes to take to put an end to such violation of the law?
Owing to the steps taken by the Irish Government, Rosturk Castle has been vacated by the persons by whom it was improperly occupied.
Constabulary Barrack, Dromineer
asked the Chief Secretary whether the Royal Irish Constabulary have been withdrawn from the barrack at Dromineer, County Tip- perary; whether there are any other barracks in the district and, if so, at what distance; and how does this action afford adequate protection to law-abiding citizens?
This barrack has recently been evacuated in accordance with a rearrangement scheme agreed between the Commander-in-Chief and the Chief of Police in Ireland. The nearest barrack is at Nenagh, which is 6¼ miles distant from Dromineer. In regard to the last part of the question, experience in Ireland has shown that effective police protection can be given in a sparsely populated district by a mobile force operating over a wide area on a system of motor transport patrols. It is not considered, therefore, that this rearrangement will diminish the protection available for law-abiding citizens.
Are the mobile police operating in that area now?
They are.
Questions
Lemberg
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can get confirmation or otherwise of the suppression at Lemberg of the Akademichna Hromada and Akademichna Pomich and the imprisonment of the Ukrainian scientists, Professor Schurat and Haluschynsky, on the charge of establishing private education?
A report on these allegations will be called for from His Majesty's Minister at Warsaw.
Aden Protectorate
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give any information regarding the present situation in the Aden Protectorate, Yemen, and Asir; whether any agreement has been entered into by the British Government with either the Imam Yahya or the Said Idrissi; whether peace between these two rulers now obtains; who is in occupation of Hodeidah; and has trade been reopened between the coast and the interior of Yemen?
With regard to the first part of the question, I have no special information to communicate to the House. With regard to the second, His Majesty's Government has been in treaty relations with the Idrissi for some time past, but no agreement has yet been entered into with the Imam Yahya. I have received no recent reports of hostilities on any considerable scale between the two rulers. Hodeidah is in the occupation of the Idrissi. As regards trade between the coast and the interior, conditions have somewhat improved, but cannot yet be regarded as secure.
Are we at present paying any subsidy to either of the rulers named?
I would prefer to have exact notice of that.
Business of the House
( by Private Notice ) asked the Leader of the House (1) can he state the business for Friday; (2) what business do the Government intend to take to-night after the first Order is disposed of; (3) when the House may have an opportunity of considering the Genoa Convention; (4) and whether, before the House rises, a day can be afforded for a discussion of the Government policy in relation to the Washington Conference?
I am sorry that I did not understand beforehand what my right hon. Friend wanted to ask, but I will do my best to answer his questions.
To-night we propose to finish the first Order on the Paper, the Unemployed Workers' Dependants (Temporary Provision) Bill, then to make progress with the third Order, the National Health Insurance (Prolongation of Insurance) Bill, and the sixth Order, the Local Authorities (Financial Provisions) Bill.
As to Friday, I think the business must depend upon the progress we make in the course of to-day and succeeding days.
I am unable at present to state a day for any other discussion, and I must remind the House that, in addition to the legislation which, of course, we want to send to another place as rapidly as possible, in order that it may be adequately considered and may come back to us, if that be necessary, for our further con- sideration, there are Estimates to be taken and a Consolidated Fund Bill, and I think we must get rid of that business before we begin to allocate days for other subjects.
As to a Debate on the Washington Conference, I should, of course, like notice of any intention to ask for such a Debate, in order that I might consider with my colleagues the expediency of such a Debate at this moment.
As to Washington, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the extreme importance to the future of the world of the business to be considered at Washington, and in view of the Prime Minister's recent statement to the House upon the right to determine great questions of Government policy, will the right hon. Gentleman take some steps to afford the House an opportunity of indicating its wishes to the Government before the Conference takes place?
Of course I shall consider the matter and I shall consult the proper authorities about it. Let me only say that the House must be perfectly well aware of the immense importance which the Government attach to this Washington Conference, and my only hesitation in answering at once arose partly from questions of time in regard to the business of the House and still more, perhaps, from some doubt in my own mind as to whether the interests which we all have in common in this Conference would be best served if there took place Debates in every Parliamentary assembly as to the proceedings of the Conference and the line to be adopted, just on the eve of the meeting of the Conference.
Will the Government take Order No. 2 on the Paper, the Poor Law Emergency Provisions (Scotland) Bill, for which only time after midnight has so far been allowed? Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give some time to this Bill, which affects Scotland very vitally?
I am not sure whether my hon. Friend was in the House last night when this matter was being discussed. I should gather not.
I was.
Then my hon. Friend already knows the answer to his question. I offered, if the Scottish Members would allow the Bill to proceed through the Committee stage then, to provide a suitable opportunity before 11 o'clock for the next stage. The offer was not accepted, and I stated that I could not then say, and I cannot say now, when we shall be able to take the Bill again.
Is it the intention of the Government to drop the Bill and not to deal with the vital question of unemployment in Scotland?
That is only a small part of the question. If Scottish Members oppose dealing with the matter they must not blame the Government.
Can the Leader of the House give us some idea as to the duration of this Session?
If the hon. Member can tell me how long the discussions on these Bills will last, I can answer him.
I said "some idea."
Are we to understand that the Leader of the House is uttering a threat to Scottish Members, and that, because they demand adequate time and proper notice for the discussion of one of the most important Measures affecting Scotland which have been introduced, he now threatens them with the withdrawal of the Bill?
I do not think that any threat was intended. I can allow only a question as to business, or questions as to whether a Bill is to be taken.
While I am very glad to have an assurance from the Chair that no threat is intended, yet, arising out of the menacing language which was used—
An hon. Member asked a Supplementary question and he received his answer. Only a purely business question is in order at this stage of the proceedings.
Since the suggestion is made that I was using the language of threats, perhaps you, Sir, will permit me to say that that was not my intention, and I hope that none of my hon. Friends will so think it. If we had passed the Committee stage of the Bill last night, I saw my way to provide facilities for consideration of the next stage before 11 o'clock. We were unable to pass the Committee stage last night because objection was taken by Scottish Members, and I was obliged to tell them that in those circumstances I could not fix the time for taking up the Bill again.
Do we understand that when the House is called upon to deal with five or six Bills relating to unemployment, the only section of Members that will have to take business after 11 o'clock at night is that section which represents Scottish constituencies?
If the hon. Gentleman had paid any attention to the answers I have given he would have known that he is to understand exactly the opposite.
Bills Presented:
Industrial Armistice Bill,
"to avert strikes and lock-outs for a period of five years," presented by Mr. JESSON; supported by Mr. Seddon, Mr. Stanton, Mr. M'Guffin, Mr. Frederick Green, Mr. Charles Edwards, Mr. Donald, Mr. James Walton, Mr. Casey, Mr. Jephcott, Captain Bagley, and Captain Gee; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 228.]
Education Act (1921) Amendment Bill,
"to amend the Education Act, 1921," presented by Mr. THOMAS DAVIES; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 229.]
Orders of the Day
Unemployed Workers' Dependants (Temporary Provision) Bill
As amended, considered.
CLAUSE 1.—(Grants for maintenance of wife and children of unemployed workers.)
(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act there shall, while this Act continues in force, be payable to every person who is an unemployed worker within the meaning of this Act towards the maintenance of his wife and dependent children a grant at the rate provided by this Act:
Provided that—
( a ) where the husband of an unemployed worker is prevented by physical or mental infirmity from supporting himself and is being maintained wholly by his wife the grant under this Act shall, instead of being payable as hereinbefore provided, be payable to the wife towards the maintenance of her husband and her dependent children; and
( b ) no grant shall be payable under this Act in respect of a wife who is in receipt of unemployment benefit under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1920 and 1921, or under any special scheme made under those Acts, or who is in regular wage-earning employment, or is engaged in any occupation ordinarily carried on for a profit.
(2) The weekly rate of the grant payable under this Act shall be five shillings in respect of a wife or husband as the case may be, and one shilling in respect of each dependent child:
Provided that the weekly rate shall not in any case exceed nine shillings.
(3) Grants under this Act shall be paid subject to such conditions as to proof and otherwise and in such manner as the Minister of Labour may direct.
(4) If any question arises as to whether a grant is payable under this Act in respect of any person that question shall be referred to and decided by the Minister of Labour, who may, if he thinks fit, refer the question to the local employment committee for their report and recommendation.
The decision of the Minister of Labour on any question which is to be decided by him under this Act shall be final and conclusive and not subject to appeal to any court.
(5) In this Act—
The expression "unemployed worker" means a person who, being insured under the Unemployment Insurance
The expression "wife" means a wife who is living with or is being maintained wholly or mainly by her husband, and includes a person who is living as his wife with the person claiming a grant, and any female person who is residing with a person claiming a grant for the purpose of having the care of his dependent children and is being maintained by him:
The expression "a dependent child" means any child under the age of fourteen years who is maintained wholly or mainly at the cost of the person claiming the grant:
The expression "child" includes a stepchild, an adopted child and an illegitimate child:
The expression "local employment committee" means any local committee to which questions may be referred under Sub-section (5) of Section 13 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920.
The Amendment standing first on the Paper, in the name of the hon. and learned Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Inskip)—in Subsection (1), to insert, after the word "wife," the words "or of any woman who for six months prior to the coming into operation of this Act has been living with him in the place of a wife"—is out of place here. It should come at the end of Sub-section (2), where the matter to which it refers is defined.
May I make a submission on that? The object of my Amendment is to meet the necessity of a definition of "wife." As the Bill stands it will include someone who is not a wife. I submit that this is the only place in which the Amendment could come to avoid that which I desire to avoid. It is really to be taken in conjunction with an Amendment which will be moved later by the hon. and gallant Member for the Hume Division (Lieut.-Colonel Nall).
As I understand the proposal of the hon. and learned Member, it is to bring in at this point of the Bill his own definition of a wife.
With great respect, that is not so. As the Bill is drawn, it provides for a wife and dependent children getting benefit. It proceeds to extend the meaning of wife by definition, and on page 2 we find that it includes any person living temporarily as a wife.
It is only the parson's fee that makes her a wife.
4.0 P.M.
My object is not to exclude that person from getting the benefit, but to put it into the Bill in a substantive way that that person is entitled, in virtue of that relationship, to the benefit so as to avoid the necessity of defining a wife as including someone who is not a wife. It is a point of substance.
I must say that I cannot see the hon. and learned Member's point. It is only one of drafting. The hon. and learned Member proposes here that a woman who for six months has been living with a man shall receive the wife's allowance.
With great respect, that is exactly what I propose not to do. I propose to avoid the necessity of enshrining in an Act of Parliament a definition of a wife, which is an honourable term, as including someone who is not a wife, but who very often takes the place of a wife.
I think I now see the hon. and learned Member's purpose. He objects to it being done as a definition, instead of a substantive proposition.
That is partly my point.
In that case, the hon. and learned Member's Amendment would be in order.
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "wife" ["maintenance of his wife"], to insert the words:
"or of any woman who for six months prior to the coming into operation of this Act has been living with him in the place of a wife."
I am obliged for the latitude which you have given me in this Amendment, I am not wedded to the words of it in so far as I have included the period of six months. The right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Labour has been good enough to speak to me and to indicate that he is prepared to accept an Amendment which will be moved by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander. Kenworthy), pro- viding that anyone who has lived and is living with him as a wife shall be eligible. I have no objection to my Amendment being altered to provide that the benefit, in addition to being given to a wife, shall be given to any woman who has been and is living with a man in the place of a wife. We shall then avoid these words, and the objection which there is of allowing people to take a woman to themselves in order that they may claim the benefit given to a wife. At the same time, it will avoid the odious necessity, if it be a necessity, of fastening on to the word "wife" in our Acts of Parliament a meaning which is opposed to the duty, the character, the position and the conception which we all like to give to a wife. That is not a mere point of drafting, as you have been good enough to allow me to say, but a real point of substance which will appeal to the womanhood of this country. I caught an observation of an hon. Member opposite who said that it was "only the parson's fee that makes a wife." If my hon. Friend takes that view, he is at liberty to hold it, but it is not the view held by the great body of public opinion in this country, and it is certainly not the view held by those who glory in the name of "wife" and wish neither the word "wife" nor the position of a wife to be debased and prostituted even by Acts of Parliament. If the Minister of Labour can meet me by putting in these words at the beginning of the Bill, or words to the same effect, modified as he may think necessary, it will prevent the necessity of defining the word "wife" later on in the Bill, and it will give the person concerned precisely the same right as the right hon. Gentleman intends to give to her and cause a break in a practice which was introduced in one of the earlier Bills connected with this subject, which has attracted attention outside this House and to which I respectfully deem it my duty to call attention in this House.
I am not sure that I fully apprehend my hon. and learned Friend's purpose. As I understand it, it is two-fold. The lesser important of the two is this. He does not want a woman to become eligible for this grant unless she has been, before the passing of this Act—we will not say the precise date at this moment—living with him in the place of a wife. I propose on that small point to accept an Amendment in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) to insert when we get to the definition of a "wife" the words "has lived with him," so that it shall be quite clear that it is to be a bonâ fide arrangement. The larger issue which my hon. and learned Friend raises is quite a different one. He says, "I am not going to say anything about the unmarried woman in your definition which follows the word 'wife,' but I do not want her, if I can help it, to be put under the definition of a wife, and therefore I bring her in here instead." His purpose is to avoid the close juxtaposition which would otherwise result from them both being put into this definition. He does, however, create a difficulty. I assume that my hon. and learned Friend does not press me to accept the period of six months. Administratively, that would be very difficult. My officers would be compelled by statute to say: "These two people have been living together for six months and therefore they are eligible." That would require investigation which would take time, and all the virtue of this Act is gone unless it can be expeditiously administered. Therefore, he would not press me to make it specifically six months, so long as the woman had been living with the man before the passing of the Act. If I accepted this Amendment here, I should have to amend the Act in any number of places. I would therefore ask him to withdraw his Amendment now on my assurance that, if the substance of what he wants can be put into this form—not the six months—in another place, without any very serious consequential alterations right through the whole of the Bill, I will do my best to meet him; but, if he presses me now, then, because of the consequential changes which I have not had time to consider but which I can foresee will be considerable, I shall be bound to oppose his Amendment.
I cannot let certain words used by the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Inskip) who proposed this Amendment pass without challenge. I have noticed the change that has come in regard to phraseology in recent years, and to which the hon. and learned Member refers as an odious practice. I suppose he means the use of certain charitable phraseology in regard to unhappy people, such phrases, for instance, as the "unmarried wife." It may be that the hon. and learned Member's words, unless they are challenged, may carry weight. Such references during the War as to the "unmarried wife" have seemed to me a great advance, and I cannot see any point in such hypocritical, uncharitable objections. I can only tell him, if he wants to refer to this odious practice, that it was commenced by the founder of the religion of which he is a member, when he said:
"Let him that is without sin cast the first stone."
There is one point which I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not overlook. The Bill, as introduced, did not give the 5s. to the female relative or woman who was living in the house and taking care of the children. I am glad to say that was put right in the Committee stage. If the words which we are now discussing, or similar words, are accepted in this place, I presume that it is the intention to leave out the definition of a wife, which follows later in the Clause. I hope it will be very carefully observed that the effect of that would be to take away again the 5s. from the mother or other woman relative. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be very careful to see that is not done.
Certainly.
It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman might accept this Amendment with a slight Amendment, leaving out the period of six months. That would meet the main point of my hon. and learned Friend, the Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Inskip). This is a real point, as I endeavoured to demonstrate in Committee, and I understood that my right hon. Friend was going to meet it. I do not propose to enter into the extraordinarily perverted moral code which the hon. and gallant Member for East Bradford (Captain Loseby) would adopt, but this very expression of an "unmarried wife" arose from the practice that probably was quite properly adopted during the War. I think the Minister himself said that he was merely carrying out the same practice. It should be pointed out, however, that while a soldier got an allowance for his so-called "unmarried wife" during the War he had to prove that he was in fact maintaining her as such before he enlisted, and at the present time, in the case of the Pensions Warrant, the pensioner has to prove that he was in fact drawing an allowance for his so-called "unmarried wife" before he was injured and while he was serving in the Army. In both those cases it is qualified. In this Bill there is no qualification at all, and as I pointed out to the Committee, any single man might invite any woman to live with him, and the day afterwards she becomes eligible for this iniquitous allowance. It is a very small point in administration that can be quite well met by my right hon. Friend accepting this Amendment with the deletion of the period of six months. I can quite see the objection to that period.
We owe a considerable debt of gratitude to my hon. and learned Friend, the Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Inskip) for having introduced this point. I do not wish in any way to deprive the woman who is living with a man of any grant which she may get, but it is a matter of knowledge that the people who are married have incurred great financial responsibilities to each other which the man living with a woman certainly has not got, and it is only right that we should distinguish to some extent between the couple who are living together and the couple who have entered into a life-long contract. A man is responsible financially for many of the things which his legal wife may happen to do, but a man has not any of these responsibilities in respect of a woman who is living with him.
He has a moral obligation.
There is no great sympathy outside for these continued jibes from the Labour party against any sort of legal binding contract which people may have to enter into.
Look at the Divorce Courts.
These jibes are not in accordance with the spirit of the country or the spirit of the House, and there is nothing doing more harm, both inside and outside the House. It is a matter of everyday knowledge that "husband" and "wife" are two of the most honourable and ancient words in the language, and the man who marries enters into a lifelong contract and re- sponsibility which is recognised both in law and in every other relation. When we wish to make a distinction, as we do in this case, we shall not be turned from it by any of these cheap jibes. The right hon. Gentleman might take account of the feeling which undoubtedly exists, both in the House and the country, and if he cannot, for reasons of definition, make the change just now, without consulting the Parliamentary draftsmen, it would be worth his while to give a binding pledge that he will meet us in the spirit, if not in the letter, of the Amendment.
I also owe a debt of gratitude to my hon. Friend the Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Inskip) for having brought forward this Amendment, and if the hon. and gallant Member who has last spoken will allow me I should like to say how thoroughly I agree with everything he has said. Let me point out to the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill what might arise unless some such Amendment as this is accepted. There is nothing to prevent a man A living with a woman B and claiming this allowance in respect of her. Having got it, what further is there to prevent him saying to B, "I like another woman, C, better than you. Get out, I am going to have C to live with me," and the same allowance will be granted in respect of C. That might be done by anybody in the position of living with a woman who was not his wife. Indeed it is not at all unlikely, and in such circumstances, it is absolutely necessary in an Act of Parliament to make a distinction between what is an honourable mode of life and what is a dishonourable mode of life. In this Bill, unless something like the Amendment is put in, there is going to be no distinction made between the two modes of life.
I am anxious to respond to the offer which the right hon. Gentlemas has fairly enough made, but before I say a word about that, may I refer to some of the observations which have been made. It is in the interests of that class which my hon. Friends opposite represent or try to represent that this Amendment is chiefly moved. I would like my friends who have interposed, especially my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for East Bradford (Captain Loseby) to go down to any working-class constituency, and tell the wives there that they have stated in the House of Commons it did not matter a bit whether a woman was married or not, that they were all entitled to be called "wives" Let me pass from that, however, to what the right hon. Gentleman has said—
I think my hon. Friend is referring to me. I did not say anything of the kind. I said, if you have to refer to them at all, you should use the kindest and most charitable phraseology possible. I said nothing more than that.
I am in the recollection of the House. I used no uncharitable words, and I expressed no uncharitable feelings, so the hon. and gallant Member's rebuke is undeserved. In reference to what the right hon. Gentleman has said, I quite recognise, as one who has had on occasions to draft documents, that it is impossible to foretell what a change made in an earlier passage may lead to in subsequent passages. We are, however, entitled to a little indulgence in this matter, because in order to accommodate the right hon. Gentleman during the Committee stage an Amendment was withdrawn, which raised very much the same question. It was to meet him and help him that Amendment was withdrawn. My right hon. Friend now tells me that he will, with the assistance of the draftsman, see that the definition of "wife" in another part of the Bill is so altered as not to include the persons with whom we are dealing—at the same time leaving those persons entitled to benefit under the Bill. I shall be prepared on that undertaking, and with the leave of the House, to withdraw my Amendment.
I give the undertaking that we shall make provision for these persons here at this point, but not necessarily with the condition as to a period of six months, and having done so, that we shall amend the proposed definition of a wife.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Subsection (1, a ), after the word "wholly" ["maintained wholly by his wife"], to insert the words "or partly."
I am hopeful that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to accept this Amendment. I suggest there are substantial reasons why it should be accepted. The provision to which the Amendment relates came in the nature of a concession from the right hon. Gentleman, in response to appeals addressed to him from all quarters of the House. This concession, however, has a limitation, and I fear it will not wholly meet the purposes for which it is intended. The language of the provision is not at all consistent either with its object or with the preceding words in the opening part of the Clause. It will be observed in the opening part of the Clause that a grant is given to a husband towards the maintenance of his wife. It does not state that the wife is to be wholly dependent before the grant can be made. There is no reference to the degree of dependence in the case of the wife. The right hon. Gentlemen then properly proposes to make an equivalent grant to a wife in respect of a husband, provided that the husband is an invalid, and that through physical or mental infirmity he is incapable of pursuing his ordinary work. In the case of a husband receiving a grant for the support of his wife, there is, as I say, no condition that the wife must be wholly dependent, and if the right hon. Gentleman proposes to place the two sexes upon the same level, why then does he import into this provision a condition that when the wife receives a grant in respect of a husband, the husband must be wholly dependent upon the wife?
We propose that the provision should read that the man must be wholly "or partly" dependent in order that the wife should receive the grant of 5s. Let me put a case, and there must be many such. Let us suppose an invalid husband, whose condition of infirmity is such as to have moved his fellow-workmen to some special effort on his behalf. I know of many cases where collections have been taken up, subscriptions raised, and concerts organised, and as much as 10s. a week for a period of months provided by those means for men afflicted by misfortune, whose condition has evoked the special sympathy of their fellow-workmen. Or take the case of a man who is physically disabled from work, but who served in the War and has a pension, or a man who is getting something from his trade union for one cause or another. I suggest the right hon. Gentleman should not deprive the wife of such a man of the opportunity of receiving this 5s. merely because part of his maintenance is being derived from some source outside this fund. Finally, there is the question of administration. Is the right hon. Gentleman going to leave to the various committees and those who have to administer the terms of this Bill the problem of interpreting the degree of maintenance? Who is to settle precisely whether a person is being wholly main tained or not? I think as a mere matter of taking out of this provision something that will render it meaningless, it would be better to make it more comprehensive and go the full length of giving a wife an opportunity equal to that enjoyed by the husband, of benefiting by this grant.
We began by proposing a grant of 5s. in respect of a wife. That was the original scheme. One did not inquire as to whether a wife was wholly dependent or otherwise. My right hon. Friend now asks why is a condition laid down as to whole dependence when the case is reversed, the husband being the invalid and the wife the breadwinner. When the Bill was originally brought in providing for the 5s. in respect of the wife, the case was put to me that, while it was a very proper provision where the husband was the breadwinner and the wife was looking after the house and the children, yet there were instances where the wife was the breadwinner and the husband was prevented by infirmity from working. I met that point by this concession—my right hon. Friend himself has used that word—which alters the scope of the Bill very considerably and involves £60,000 or £70,000. Now he wants to go a stage further by adding the words "or partly" in connection with the words "wholly dependent." As my right hon. Friend says, there is a difficulty as to the definition of "wholly dependent," but surely he is increasing the difficulties of administration by putting in the words "or partly." I am anxious, if I can, to meet my right hon. Friend and those who are with him in this Amendment, but what we really want to do is to conserve this sum of money collected by the threefold contribution for the really deserving cases of necessity during the coming six months. My hon. and right hon. Friends opposite say it is not enough. I know it is not enough, but having said that, and if there is not any more, they and I have one mind in common, and that is to see that the money goes to the right quarter. In order that it should, I met the case of the invalid husband where the wife was the breadwinner, and I do not think I can go to the extent, asked by the Amendment, of giving it to the husband who is partly dependant. There is a case, of course, which could be met. We will take the case of a disabled ex-soldier on the lowest minimum percentage of disability; I should like the local committees to have authority to look at that case and to deal with it on its merits, and therefore, if my right hon. Friend would be satisfied with the word "mainly" instead of "partly," I would accept that, but I cannot go beyond that.
May I put a question to my right hon. Friend and ask him to address himself to one argument, which is, I think, a point of substance—that is, that the first part of the Clause, with reference to the husband's right to receive money for the wife, speaks of that money being given "towards the maintenance of his wife," and what I ask is that correspondingly the money should be given to the wife towards the maintenance of the husband, without the qualification that the husband must be wholly dependent upon the wife. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman has met the point, and I can quite see that if any qualifying word of that kind, "wholly," "mainly," or "partly," is left in, there will be trouble, but if the word "wholly" is to be left in alone, we would propose to go to a Division in order that this Amendment should be tested.
I am sorry the right hon. Gentleman cannot accept the Amendment, as the Clause as it stands will certainly involve the setting up of inquiries and investigations as to whether or not a man who is mentally or physically disabled from following his occupation is wholly dependent on the wife. If he accepted the words "or partly," I think that difficulty would not arise. I do not pretend to be an exponent of the English language, but I fail to distinguish a great deal of difference between the words "partly" and "mainly." It is only a question of degree, and there is nothing in it. With the word "mainly" in, you would have to define how far "mainly" goes, and the only way to meet the point without trouble is on the lines that we have suggested, namely, by putting in the words "wholly or partly." That would remove all obligation for inquiries and investigations, because we claim that by the right hon. Gentleman's acceptance of the Amendment the wife is put into the same position as the husband under the Act.
In addition to what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) has said in regard to contributions that a husband might be receiving, it frequently happens that in factories and works there is a little mutual club arranged among the men to assist a fellow-worker in the case of a death in the home or in a case of sickness. It may work out between 3s. and 4s a week to a man while he is ill and unable to follow his employment. I am not quoting an imaginary case, but cases which have come within my own knowledge and which exist to-day, where men have been paying in 6d. or 1s. a week, appointing their own secretary and treasurer, and managing their own affairs, and when a man is incapable of following his employment he will probably draw out 5s. a week. Is the wife to be deprived of her right under the Act because of the husband's provident habit of joining, in association with his mates, to provide for the distress that may come upon him? I think that if such a condition existed it would be iniquitous and unfair, and certainly we should be putting a stop to these little efforts that exist among gangs of men and bodies of workmen to provide for the rainy day when it comes. Therefore I hope and trust the House will not accept either the word "mainly" or the Clause as it now stands.
According to the rules of the House, I take it that my only mode of procedure would be to move to amend the Amendment by leaving out the word "partly" and inserting instead thereof the word "mainly," and rather than miss the opportunity of accepting anything we can get from, the Minister in charge of the Bill, I would ask leave to do that.
The right hon. Gentleman can move to amend the Amendment in the way he has suggested, but I do not think he will gain anything, because if the words "or partly" are defeated it will be open to the right hon. Gentleman to move to put in the words "or mainly."
I would rather do that, certainly.
I am sorry that the Minister has not carried out the promise that he made to the House the other day more generously and fully. The promise was, as I understood it, that he was going to put the husband in the same position as the wife occupied in the original Bill, but he has not done that. He did not say in the Bill in its original form that the wife should be wholly supported by the husband or would otherwise forfeit the benefit.
In Sub-section (5) of Clause 1, in the original form of the Bill, it says:
"The expression 'wife' means a wife who is living with or is being maintained wholly or mainly by her husband,"
and the proposal I have put in puts the two in exactly the same position.
I had missed that particular line, I admit, but I hope something will be done to alter both the Subsection we are now discussing and Sub-section (5).
That is another matter.
Like my hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Wignall), I know there are circumstances under which this would be made a dead letter. If it stood that the husband should be wholly maintained by the wife in order that the wife should receive the allowance, what would happen in the case of a family in which the husband was partly maintained by anything in the nature of earnings from the boy or girl in the family? It seems to me that under the Bill as now framed by the Minister, the wife would be deprived of the 5s. in respect of her sick husband. I would rather the Sub-section left off at the word "himself"—
"Where the husband of an unemployed worker is prevented by physical or mental infirmity from supporting himself."
That would amply express the idea we had in our minds the other day, that if a man was sick and infirm and could not work, the wife should have this small allowance of 5s. If the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) goes to a Division, I shall certainly go into the Lobby with him against the Bill as it is now framed.
I hope we shall go to a Division, unless the Government are prepared to accept the Amendment, for it seems to me that otherwise you would inflict a good deal of hardship upon a number of women in different parts of the country. Let me give one or two cases. Suppose a man has met with an accident and is getting compensation under the Insurance Act, and that his wife is working in a particular trade that is insured and is called upon to pay a contribution. The result would be, under the Government's proposal, that that woman would be deprived of receiving the 5s., and the children also. In another case, the unions make grants to members where they have met with some disablement—£15, £30, and so forth—and if that amount of money was paid, in that case the woman would be deprived of the 5s., and she would not get the 1s. either in respect of the children. Take a man insured under the Health Insurance Act, where he is receiving his 10s., or, if he has exhausted his 26 weeks' full benefit, is receiving the one-half, in that case the woman and children would also be deprived of their allowance. I therefore suggest that the Government ought to see their way clear to accept this very reasonable Amendment. Assuming, however, that the Amendment is defeated, which I dare say it will be if the Government Whips are put on, then my right hon. Friend intends moving an Amendment to put in the word "mainly."
I accept that.
In the name of common sense, what is the difference? As a matter of fact, you will have to investigate, in any case, whether it is "wholly," "partly," or "mainly," and, for the life of me, I cannot see very much difference between "mainly" and "partly."
It seems to me that there is a very considerable difference between the words "mainly" and "partly." I am not at all sure that I am in favour of the word "mainly," but I am certainly not in favour of the word "partly." The Clause is rather a com- plicated one, but, as far as I understand it, it means this, that where the husband is an unemployed worker and is prevented by physical or mental infirmity from supporting himself, and is being maintained wholly by his wife, she would get the allowance. He might be in receipt of a pension or some contribution from an insurance company, or club, or trade union, and on that he is living. His wife is not doing anything, and, therefore, he would come under the definition of being the husband of an unemployed worker. In that case, if the word "partly" is put in, what would prevent the wife from going out, say, for an hour a week and earning 1s. and giving that to her husband, and then saying that she was partly supporting him? In those circumstances, she would be entitled to be paid, by the ratepayer, or the taxpayer, or by the people in work, or the employers, the allowance named in the Bill. If we put in the word "mainly," a very different state of affairs would arise. If the man got 20s. or 25s. from a trade union, and 2s. or 3s. from his wife, and, therefore, was not mainly supported by her, it would be held that he did not come under this proviso. That is what I think is the difference between the words "mainly" and "partly," and, personally, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will adhere to his proposal.
I am sure it would help the House if the Minister would give us some idea of the difference financially between the respective Amendments, because I confess that the hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment made an unanswerable case on grounds of logic and humanity, and I take it that the only defence the Minister put up was that the funds were so limited that he wanted to use them to the best advantage. It seems to me that if you put in the words "wholly or mainly," you are going to inflict an injustice such as was inflicted under the Old Age Pensions Act, whereby you penalise those who are thrifty and make support for themselves. I hope, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider the matter, so that those who have been thrifty shall not lose thereby.
Question put, "That the words 'or partly' be there inserted in the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 77; Noes, 198.
Division No. 362.] AYES. [4.50 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Sexton, James Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Grundy, T. W. Simm, M. T. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Sitch, Charles H. Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Halls, Walter Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) Hayward, Evan Spencer, George A. Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormsklrk) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes) Swan, J. E. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Henderson, Lt.-Col. V. L. (Tradeston) Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Bromfield, William Hirst, G. H. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Cairns, John Hogge, James Myles Tillett, Benjamin Cape, Thomas Irving, Dan Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) John, William (Rhondda, West) Waterson, A. E. Casey, T. W. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Kiley, James Daniel White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Lunn, William Wignall, James Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) Davies, John (Lancs, Westhoughton) Mills, John Edmund Wilson, James (Dudley) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) Myers, Thomas Wintringham, Margaret Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath) Newbould, Alfred Ernest Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Entwistle, Major C. F. O'Connor, Thomas P. Finney, Samuel O'Grady, James TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Galbraith, Samuel Richardson, R. (Houghton-le Spring) Mr. T. Griffiths and Mr. Frederick Hall. Gillis, William Rose, Frank H.
NOES. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Evans, Ernest Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Lindsay, William Arthur Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Fell, Sir Arthur Lloyd, George Butler Armstrong, Henry Bruce Fildes, Henry Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Bagley, Captain E. Ashton FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A. Lorden, John William Baird, Sir John Lawrence Flannery, Sir James Fortescue Lowe, Sir Francis William Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Forestier-Walker, L. Lowther, Maj.-Gen, Sir C. (Penrith) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Fraser, Major Sir Keith M'Connell, Thomas Edward Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Frece, Sir Walter de McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Barnston, Major Harry Ganzoni, Sir John Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Beauchamp, Sir Edward Gardiner, James McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester) Beckett, Hon. Gervase Gee, Captain Robert McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham McMicking, Major Gilbert. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Gilbert, James Daniel Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Betterton, Henry B. Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Bigland, Alfred Grant, James Augustus Macquisten, F. A. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Magnus, Sir Philip Blades, Sir George Rowland Greig, Colonel James William Mallaby-Deeley, Harry Blake, Sir Francis Douglas Gritten, W. G. Howard Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E. Manville, Edward Breese, Major Charles E. Gwynne, Rupert S. Mitchell, Sir William Lane Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Hailwood, Augustine Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Brittain, Sir Harry Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Harris, Sir Henry Percy Morris, Richard Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Haslam, Lewis Murchison, C. K. Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Murray, John (Leeds, West) Burgoyne, Lt.-Col. Alan Hughes Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Murray, William (Dumfries) Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Hope, Sir H.(Stirling & CI'ckm'nn, W.) Nall, Major Joseph Butcher, Sir John George Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Neal, Arthur Campbell, J. D. G. Hopkins, John W. W. Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Carew, Charles Robert S. Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Cautley, Henry Strother Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Howard, Major S. G. Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.) Hudson, R. M. Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Cheyne, Sir William Watson Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Hurd, Percy A. Parker, James Clough, Sir Robert Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Coats, Sir Stuart Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Perkins, Walter Frank Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Perring, William George Conway, Sir W. Martin James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Pickering, Colonel Emil W. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Jameson, John Gordon Pratt, John William Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Jellett, William Morgan Purchase, H. G. Curzon, Captain Viscount Jodrell, Neville Paul Raper, A. Baldwin Davidson, J. C. C.(Hemel Hempstead) Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Davies, Sir David Sanders (Denbigh) Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Kidd, James Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) King, Captain Henry Douglas Reid, D. D. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Renwick, Sir George Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H. Rutherford, Colonel Sir J. (Darwen) Stewart, Gershom Wilson, Capt. A. S. (Holderness) Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill) Sturrock, J. Leng Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Sugden, W. H. Wilson-Fox, Henry Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Norwood) Sutherland, Sir William Wise, Frederick Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Seager, Sir William Tickler, Thomas George Woolcock, William James U. Seddon, J. A. Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John Tryon, Major George Clement Young, E. H. (Norwich) Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Waddington, R. Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Watson, Captain John Bertrand Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Smith, Sir Malcolm (Orkney) Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander White, Col. G. D. (Southport) TELLERS FOR THE NOES .—.— Steel, Major S. Strang Williams, C. (Tavistock) Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. Dudley Ward.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1, a ), after the word "wholly," to insert the words "or mainly." In accordance with the promise indicated by the Minister, I presume this will be accepted.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the word "five," and to insert instead thereof the word "ten."
5.0 P.M.
I am not going into all the arguments used last week in favour of this Amendment, because I hope, as the result of the consensus of opinion expressed in Committee when this Amendment was discussed, the Labour Minister will accept this Amendment to-day. I do not know whether he has been in the country during the last week-end or not since the discussion took place on this Amendment, but, if he has, I am sure he has discovered that, not only among the men, but among the women, there is a very strong feeling about the very miserable offer that the Government are making. I want to remind the Minister that, in certain trades, some of the men have been idle for over 12 months. I know in my own particular trade, the tinplate trade, and the steel trade, some men have been idle for over 12 months; and, further, from yesterday, in some of these trades, the men are down to pre-War wages, as a result of the sliding scale, plus the 7½ per cent. If you take the men who have been idle for 12 months, they received 12 months ago £l a week unemployment benefit. They also received some unemployment benefit from their trade union. The benefits from the trade union have been exhausted for many months. The Government reduced the £1 a week to 15s. Now the proposal of the Government is to put the man and wife, after 12 months' idleness, on exactly the same basis as they were 12 months ago. How does the Minister think that, after struggling for 12 months on a small pittance of £1 a week, these people are going to exist upon the 15s. for the man and the 5s. for the wife? The thing is impossible. May I point out to the Minister that in some cases some of these people are actually paying more in rent than the husband and wife will receive in out-of-work benefit?
I was at Manchester over the week-end, and I know of people there unemployed who are paying 22s. per week rent. They will, under this Bill, get £1 per week. I ask the Labour Minister how can it be done? One woman put it to me that it cannot possibly be done. She said, "I do not understand high finance, but I do know what £1 per week is, and I know that out of it you cannot pay 22s. a week rent." She understands that part of finance! I do want to appeal to the Minister to accept this Amendment. It is no good going to public meetings—and the Minister and the Cabinet will have to face it the same as we have to face it—and telling men and women who are starving that you cannot find an extra few millions when you are able to find £60,000,000 for the friends of the hon. Member for the City of London, who will probably vote against this Amendment. You can find £16,000,000 for the landlords and the farmers of the country, who profiteered and exploited the men and women of this country during the War. We simply want you to look at this question from a humane standpoint.
My hon. Friends opposite do not seem, to appreciate, in moving the increase of this amount from 5s. to 10s., the fact—for what it is worth—that this is not the whole of the Government's Measures. It is a part—if you like, a small part—of the many-sided endeavour to try to find a remedy and a palliative for this problem of unemployment. They take each of these proposals as if it stood alone, and was self-contained, as if there was nothing else, and they rather lose sight of the other things. I cannot accept this Amendment. We have not got the money. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Well, what is the good of telling the people that you can add to the sum out of money which you have already spent somewhere else? The only way in which this could be done is, first of all, to find, roughly, £4,400,000 additional, and this would add to the cost of this little Bill. That is one way. Another way is to continue the contributions after you had finished paying grants, or benefits, or whatever you like to call them, for six months. You might add £4,400,000 to the cost, which I cannot do, because it is not there, or you can continue to collect your subscriptions when you have finished paying, that is, for six months longer. I am not prepared to do either. What I ask is that this Measure should be taken for what it is worth in connection with the other features of our many-sided endeavour.
After the speech of the Minister of Labour, I have come to the conclusion, the same as the other day, that the Government has now made up their minds that they are going to make absolutely no concessions at all that are going to inflict any financial obligations upon the Treasury. We may be told to "wait and see," as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) suggested to us years ago, but it does appear to me that you have made up your minds that the only concessions you are going to make are verbal alterations and that you are not going to make any increase so far as financial expenditure is concerned. Personally I am convinced that the Government made a huge blunder by the way they are dealing with this Bill. They are getting all this worry and turmoil and all this sort of thing flung at their heads, both inside and outside the House, just for the sake of about £6,000,000. [ Laughter .] That is all it amounts to. In the name of common-sense, what is £6,000,000 in these days. If the Government came along with a proposition to raise £6,000,000 or anything at all in these days they could get it without any trouble at all. Simply, however, because it is a question of some financial assistance to the wives and children of the men who are out of employment, the Government are taking up this hostile attitude and are not going to make any more concessions at all.
Even if you grant this concession, supposing that the £6,000,000 would be exhausted within a period of six months, there is a proposal in the Bill that the workers may be called upon to pay contributions until the deficit was paid. Suppose they do? Personally I feel convinced they would rather do that than see the women and children deprived of help. What does this amount to—your 15s. for the man and 5s. for the wife or the woman who may be living with the man, and 4s. for the children? That is 24s. to keep the man, his wife and his four or more children. As my hon. Friend said a few moments ago—and right hon. Gentlemen opposite know it as well as I do—there are the tremendous rents that the wage earners have had to pay, which are 40 per cent., 50 per cent., and in some cases 60 per cent. higher than they were paying during the War. It does appear to me that the Government are making a huge blunder. So far as I am concerned personally I wish the party would take up the same attitude as last week, because we can see, when we go on with the Amendments, that the Government have made up their mind not to make any more concessions. Therefore I think we might as well let the thing go through without any very great trouble about it. Let the Government get it on to the Statute Book and do the best with it under the circumstances.
The Minister of Labour says that we on these benches say that the amount is not enough. Is there anything stronger we can say than that? Five shillings for the wife is really an insult to the wife. After the period of unemployment we have gone through, and after the auxiliary income has been exhausted, these people will have nothing whatever to live upon except what they are getting under this Bill. How in the world can they live? It is utterly impossible. It is simply sentencing the working classes that are unemployed to a lingering death, for it is impossible for them to live upon such a pittance as suggested. If I read this Clause aright, there is an extraordinary anomaly in it. If the wife is the breadwinner she gets 12s. under the Unemployment Act, and the husband gets 5s. if he is an invalid, a total of 17s. If, on the other hand, the husband is the breadwinner, and the wife an invalid, the husband gets 15s. and the wife 5s., 20s. in all. In one ease it is 20s. and in the other it is 17s. Yet the circumstances are precisely the same. At any rate, I think the Minister ought to rectify that anomaly, if he does nothing else. But I am afraid that the Government have come to the determination to make no Amendments in this Bill. However they expect the working classes to exist upon this wretched pittance it is impossible to conceive. I was trying myself to find out, and I asked a married man how, under the circumstances, he could live. He said he was living upon the interest of the money he owed! That was his answer. It is impossible for men and women to live upon this pittance, and that is the strongest argument that could possibly be adduced against the proposals of the Government.
The Minister of Labour, in meeting the objection of the Mover of the Amendment, said that the House had to bear in mind that this was only a part of what was being done by the Government to relieve unemployment. He did not mention them by name, but indicated the other Measures, and left the House to recollect for itself the fact that certain Measures have come before us, all having the same basis for the relief of unemployment.
Hear, hear!
I want to point out to the Labour Minister that that very same objection, that that very same argument, has been put before us on every one of the Measures that have come before the House for discussion. We have placed Amendments on the Paper regarding those other Bills, and the Ministers in charge of them have met us with the very same phrase, which seems to be a stock phrase on the Front Government Bench—"This is only a part of the Government proposals." But what does the part, or all the parts put together and completed, of the whole Government programme amount to in relation to unemployment. Practically nothing so far as relief goes! Hon. Members below the Gangway and on the other side of the House laughed ironically when the hon. Member for Plaistow (Mr. W. Thorne) said the Amendment was going to cost £6,000,000 extra. They laughed as if £6,000,000 was a preposterous sum to suggest at the present moment. They cheered, however, not ironically but enthusiastically, when part of the Government proposals were put before the House to give them and those whom they represent, and the business firms in which many of them act as partners are to receive, £25,000,000 from the Government to assist them in export credits.
What £25,000,000?
The right hon. Gentleman does not appear to know the proposals of his own Government. I may be mistaken, and if so I will be quite willing to admit it.
You mean guaranteeing loans?
Yes, and there are to-day in this country many firms which claim that they are not receiving payment for the things which they have sent abroad, and they will be the first that come in and claim that they come within the scope of this Bill, and they will demand, and probably get, assistance from the Government.
indicated dissent .
What we are asking the Government to do is not to guarantee the safety of wealth that can be replaced, but to guarantee the health of the people of this country by whom the wealth of the country must be produced. That is what we are asking, and if in this Bill you are going to place the workers of the country in a condition in which they will be unable to maintain their physical well-being, when the trade boom does come you may call for increased production as you like, but the physical condition of the people will be such that they will be unable to respond. There is the case of the children who represent the future generation. Do you think 1s. a week is going to provide food for a citizen of the future, or that it will enable a child to grow up with the physical frame and intellect necessary for a citizen of the future? You are starving the future.
That argument is not appropriate on this Amendment.
We can readily understand that the sum allocated to the wife of the unemployed worker will also be spent on the children, even with the augmentation of 1s. for the child there will still be insufficient to provide for the necessaries of the family. We hope it will be unnecessary to have to resort to similar action to those which took place last week. The workers are sick of the Government's proposals. The Government are thrusting the responsibility they ought to bear upon the shoulders of the local authorities and upon the pockets of the people outside which are almost empty. They are thrusting the whole burden of unemployment upon the working men who are fortunate enough to be in employment, and this shows the truth of the saying that the only people to support the poor are the poor. I hope the Government will accept this Amendment to increase the allowance to 10s. instead of 5s., and thus show that they have some sympathy for the conditions for which they are responsible, because this is a war problem and ought to be taken up nationally by the Government.
The speech we have just listened to is typical of a good deal of the poisonous stuff that has been poured out. Hon. Members like the Member for Govan (Mr. Maclean), knowing the state of the country and that down on the Clyde there is a large amount of unemployment, devote their eloquence and abilities to fomenting discontent and misrepresenting the proposals of the Government and the attitude of hon. Members of this House. We on this side of the House are just as much concerned about the unemployed as the hon. Member for Govan. The hon. Member calls himself a Labour Member, but we are just as much representatives of labour as he is. The hon. Member for Govan seems to have forgotten another part of his duty, and he has overlooked the fact that there are other people suffering in the country besides the unemployed at this time. There is the ratepayer and the taxpayer, men and women who are not much better off than those who are unfortunately out of employment. We are trustees here for them as well as for others, and our duty is to hold the balance fairly between all classes. We are no more defenders of the capitalists—
The hon. and gallant Member seems to be going far beyond this Amendment.
I will come back to the Amendment. The hon. Member said that the whole of the proposals of the Government should be looked at, and why not take that fact into consideration? When it is pointed out that £25,000,000 has been put at the disposal of the commercial community, what does the hon. Member say? The hon. Member for Govan says it is to assist the capitalists, but he knows perfectly well if he has read the Bill, which I do not believe he can have, that that money cannot be guaranteed unless the person who asks for it can show that it will result in the employment of the people. I have been down amongst the workers and I have put the case to them fairly in places seething with unemployment in rooms filled with hundreds of workers. I have explained the position, and I believe the sound common-sense of the British working men who do not like doles and do not like to go on to the Poor Law, when it is shown that the Government are doing everything they can to get employment for them, will carry them through, and those who come here with speeches like the one we have heard will be put on the scrap heap.
I gather from the Motion which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour made in the early part of this Debate that he is going to make some concession with regard to the amount that is to be given to the unfortunate people who are out of employment. This is a proposal to increase the allowance of the wife from 5s. to 10s. If the Minister prefers that the concession should take the form of an increased allowance to the children I am prepared to vote with him against this proposal on condition that he will increase the allowance for the children.
I do not want my hon. Friend to think that I shall be in a position to increase the amount. I like a square deal between men and men. There is a proposal on the Paper to take away the limited amount which is now 4s., and that I will concede. I have an Amendment down also with regard to the children who go to school, and I will move that myself. I do not propose to increase the amount for children, and I do not wish to mislead hon. Members on that point.
That is a very valuable concession, because a man and woman with a large family are very hardly hit under this proposal. I have no hesitation in saying that the allowance to these unfortunate people is inadequate, and you cannot get over the fact that there is going to be very considerable distress in the industrial areas between now and the spring. I urge my right hon. Friend to endeavour to induce the Treasury and the Government to come to his assistance. It is very difficult for some of us when we are asking the Government to spend £10,000,000 on a battleship to ensure the political protection of this country, to answer the question why we are not prepared to spend a much smaller amount on protecting the lives of the people who are out of employment. We are also told that the Government can vote large sums of money for railway companies, and I believe to-day there is a proposal pending for an amount of £30,000,000 to be paid as compensation to the railway companies. If it is a question of the railway companies making default on their preference stock or capital, or women and children starving, I prefer that the railway companies should make default on their preference stock.
I am perfectly aware that abuse is not argument, and I hope hon. Members opposite will always bear that in mind in future. We know that sentiment is not going to pay the rent and provide food for those who need it. We are also aware that the Government have made up their mind what they intend to do as expressed by the Minister of Labour, and we are perfectly aware and convinced of the fact that when we go to a Division on this issue we are going to be very badly defeated. This is our protest, not against the Minister of Labour not considering the requests made in our Amendment because we realise that he has no power at this juncture to increase the amount. We know that he cannot find the money necessary to meet the requirements of the present time. The fact that we can adduce arguments to show that the Government can raise money for building battleships does not make our case any better and it does not bring any money to those in need.
Our protest is not against the attitude of the Minister of Labour in acting and controlling this Bill, but it is against the Government not providing a far more adequate measure of relief than the one before the House in order to meet the stress and strain of the present unemployment. We feel that the Government could have produced a far more practical measure of relief. I am not blind to the fact that this is only one of several other Bills which will become Acts of Parliament and will to some extent meet the case. But that fact in itself does not alter the conviction that in this Bill a far more practical measure of relief could have been provided. We heard the Minister of Labour say that there is only one or two courses open to the Government. First of all, that the Government should provide the balance of the money necessary, and I unhesitatingly say that they ought to do it, because of the necessity which has arisen from a national calamity. We are the conquering nation, but we are in the position of conquerors who are half-starving, and therefore we say that the Government should provide the funds necessary to make this a far more adequate remedy to meet the stress of the storm through which we are passing to-day. It is clear that the Government are adamant on this issue. They tell us we have got all we are going to get, and we shall get no more. That is practically the sum and substance of their whole argument. We may talk till we are black in the face, and we shall be unable to budge the Government one fraction of an inch in this direction. I am glad to know there is some little concession to be made later on, but that does not meet the needs of the case, and I still believe the Government should provide the balance of the money necessary to allow 10s. a week over this period of distress.
The Minister of Labour said that that was impossible. His words were, "That is that," meaning of course there is an end to it. There is no benefit coming from that direction. The door is closed, barred, bolted and locked. It is safeguarded in every possible way so that there is no chance of breaking in. The right hon. Gentleman told us the only other alterna- tive was to make it a kind of loan, a standing debt for six months. But we all know what unemployment means. We all know that it brings in its trail a bitter experience of long standing debt which constitutes the trouble of the British workman and his wife when they realise that every pound they increase the debt has to be repaid. The bulk of the British workmen hate debt. They hope the time is not far distant when they can work and earn wages, and their greatest joy will be to know that debts accumulated in bad times have been paid in full. That is one of the brightest and best sides of the British nation. It is one of which we are all proud. Suppose the Clause in the Act giving power to extend the period of repayment was applied. If it were only the workmen who had to repay I believe the Government would not hesitate in extending the period of time, not only for six months, but possibly for six years. But part of the money to be repaid has to come out of the pockets of the employers, who I say are not impoverished because the charge, as far as they are concerned, is a capital charge and the rest of the money comes from the State. It is because of those two contributories that the Government refuse this concession.
I am dealing with a most tragic position—the most tragic that is possible in the life of the British workman, and I repeat that if it were not for the other two parties to the bargain who will be responsible for the repayment I believe there would be no hesitation in extending the period of time for repayment. It is because it means putting an additional burden on the employer and on the taxpayer that this is refused. I am speaking on behalf of the workman when I say that 10s. a week out of this Bill during the period of unemployment during the dark days of his life would be of real benefit to him, and he would gladly make the repayment. The hon. and gallant Member for West Renfrew (Sir J. Greig) said we ought to consider the ratepayers and taxpayers, but he forgot the rent-payer who is really the ratepayer in this connection, and that is the man for whom I am pleading. It is no good to plead with a stone figure that cannot be responsive to one's appeal. That is exactly the position now. The Minister of Labour is as hard as stone, not because it is in his nature but because he has to give in this House the decision of the Cabinet on this matter. All we can do is to go into the Lobby and enter our emphatic protest against the inadequate provision made by the Government for meeting these bad times of unemployment, which mean so much to the British working man.
The next Amendment down on the Paper in the name of the Member for Newcastle East (Major Barnes) and myself, will I anticipate be ruled out of order if the present Amendment under debate is defeated. But I want to ask the Minister of Labour if he cannot at any rate grant 2s. 6d. extra. The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head. We have been told that the Government have adopted a very stiff attitude on this question. We may not be told that the effect of this Bill before many months are passed may be that the Government will have to come back to the House and possibly what we are now saying will have some weight in the future. The Minister told us that he had no money and that that settled the matter. Does it? The Prime Minister said earlier, "We cannot allow people to starve." But what is going to happen to people if you refuse to give them sufficient to support themselves? They will go elsewhere. They will go to the ratepayers, they will get from the guardians the money which you refuse them, and with all due respect to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, while he may save the taxpayers' pocket a few shillings by his present action, he will cost the ratepayers many pounds. I want to make this point.
In my own district figures were taken out a little time ago as to the number of people drawing unemployment benefit—it was in June last—and it was found that only one in nine of those drawing that pay went to the guardians to supplement it. But as their private resources became exhausted, as the trade union benefits worked out, then the proportion compelled to go to the guardians on account of the meagre amount offered by the Insurance Act instead of being one in nine grew to be three in nine. That was months ago, and I venture to say that now the resources are exhausted in every direction that proportion will increase still further. By granting extra money as unemployment insurance benefit it would be possible to prevent people going to the guardians, and therefore you are going to save to the public purse many hundreds of thousands of pounds. If you give a sufficient unemployment benefit men will be inclined to manage on 25s. or 30s. rather than seek 50s. from the guardians, because of their feeling of self-respect and their desire to keep themselves free of the pauper taint. I therefore submit it is more sound economically to grant a little more money as unemployed insurance in order to save a larger drain through the guardians. I put my claim for that not on the grounds of humanity or justice but on the pure ground of economy, and the interests of public expenditure as a whole. If you add a few shillings to the unemployment benefit you will save the guardians many thousands of pounds which otherwise they will be called upon to pay. People must live, and they cannot live on the meagre pittance which this Bill provides. This is a national burden to be borne nationally. It is unfair to burden industrial areas and to put on them a much heavier load than they can stand. You are putting on one class and one locality—on the industrial community—a burden which the rest of the community are not bearing, although we say it is a national charge. I appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider the question I have raised on broad economic grounds. I submit it would be a sound policy to make this small concession and that to refuse it will cost infinitely more.
The Minister for Labour said that we on this side of the House were asserting that the provision made under this Bill was inadequate. I ask, is there any hon. Gentleman on the other side who will say that it is adequate? Does he think it is enough to keep body and soul together? I think there will be entire agreement that it is not sufficient for that purpose, and that being so, the result will be that the unemployed will come on the people living immediately around them, and ask them to exercise their charity as far as possible. Now, however, there is little or nothing much to be obtained from that direction. In many of our villages in County Durham there is scarcely a man earning anything. Whole villages are out of employment. They are isolated from other parts, and are entirely dependent upon this Bill or upon what can be got from the guardians. Apparently, if that source is closed, the only other is the guardians. As has been pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson), we are throwing the burden on the backs of the people who are least able to bear it, upon districts that are hard hit, where even the tradespeople now are crying out that they cannot afford to pay the rates; while other districts which could help are being left alone and not called upon to pay anything for the relief of unemployment.
People who are employed are working for the benefit of the nation, and when they are unemployed the whole nation ought to come to the rescue. We are asking that, through this Measure, adequate provision should be made for those who are unemployed, rather than that it should be thrown on the ratepayer, who, although he has borne his burden willingly up to now, is finding that he cannot go any further. Loans are now being refused to many of these people to enable them to get along. Employers must keep up their machinery until good times come, and the worker ought to be considered at least as good as machinery. I plead with the House and with the Chancellor of the Exchequer to look at this problem, as my hon. Friend has asked, from the larger view-point, for I feel that it will be more economical than the proposal which the Government are now making. These people have a right to exist in this country of ours, and something ought now to be done to relieve the distress that exists in every part of the country, and especially in the mining districts. Men will be called upon to work during the next month or two for less money than will be received by many of those who are unemployed, and yet these people, unless some aid is given to them, cannot go on. I trust that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will look into this matter and give us some relief from some fund, even at the sacrifice of some other expenditure.
I do not intend to make any appeal to the Government, because I feel that, as a representative of a working-class constituency, I should not thereby do credit to the people whom I represent, and I think I should lose some of my self-respect. I am satisfied that the Government have coolly calculated and made up their mind what they are going to do. What I want to protest against is that, after the Adjournment, we were told, through the public Press and other sources, that the Government were seriously concerned about unemployment, and were seriously tackling the question. We read of deputations that were waiting on Cabinet Ministers, experts and advisers of nearly every kind. I tried to ascertain one day by a question how much it cost, but we have not yet got that, although we were told that the deputations cost approximately £550. I believe the people of this country did seriously think that the Government was going to tackle the question. I am not going to waste time now in quibbling as to why people are unemployed. We all know, both here and outside, that there are about 2,000,000 homes at the present time which are suffering in con sequence of unemployment, and in my opinion that is the only thing that we ought to face. These people are con fronted with poverty. I need not go into the details, as they have been elaborated by previous speakers. The people of this country expected, as the Prime Minister said not long ago, that as long as we had a crust they should share it. I forget the exact words, but I know that the right hon. Gentleman referred to sharing a crust. Is this the way the people are going to share the crust? We are told by hon. Gentlemen on the other side that the money cannot be found. One hon Gentleman opposite referred to the speeches of one of my colleagues in his constituency. I do not consider that it is necessary to make speeches—
Order, order!
I submit that there is no need to make speeches. One only has to go about in the streets. Last Thursday morning I had occasion to go to Baker Street, and I walked to Selfridge's and stood outside there for less than half an hour, watching what was happening. I counted the cars—a number of them Rolls-Royce cars—and the powdered ladies with their pet dogs, and there were nearly 60 in less than half an hour.
Order, Order!
I was replying to the hon. Gentleman opposite, when he referred to the speeches that were being made.
And I called the hon. Member to order for doing so.
In my opinion it is a question of willingness and determination on the part of the Government. If the Government were willing seriously to deal with the problem of unemployment, I am sure that ways and means of raising the money could be found without hitting those who are badly placed at the present juncture. A statement was made in this House last week by an hon. Member who served on the Committee which inquired into the question of war wealth. He said that one of the findings of that Committee was that 340,000 people were £4,000,000,000 better off after the War than before. One sees on every hand evidence of accumulations of wealth made during the War period, and, no matter how much we may desire to blink or hide this, the average man or woman outside, without any speeches, is satisfied that there is wealth that can be tapped without unduly injuring anyone in order to relieve deserving people who are unemployed. It is the duty of the Government to tackle the problem seriously. I regard it as a bit of sharp practice to commit the House by the Financial Resolution last week to raising £2,700,000. Now, when we get opportunities of amending the Bill, we are told that no Amendment can be agreed to if it means an additional charge on the Exchequer. I think we have the support of most people outside this House when we say that the whole problem should be borne nationally and not by the local authorities. If we are not going to make that provision, then, as the hon. Member for Middlesbrough observed, the poor who are starving will continue to go to the local authorities, and that will mean that the local authorities, who are already too much overburdened, will have to carry this extra burden on their backs. We are repeatedly told in the constituencies that we are responsible for high rates. I hope the public will watch very closely what is now happening, and will realise that this Government is not prepared to shoulder its own burden, but is determined to throw the whole weight of it on to the people in their own localities through the Poor Law system.
If importunity could be successful from a political point of view, there is not the least doubt that the Labour party would be successful this afternoon. If it only depended upon our ability to continue our knocking at the door of the Cabinet for further relief, I feel certain that this afternoon we should have succeeded in obtaining it. I very much question whether the Cabinet and the Government understand the seriousness of this problem. Ministers are very largely confined to business in their own offices and to routine work in connection with the Government, and are not brought into immediate touch from time to time with the great mass of unemployment in this country and its concomitants, and they have no idea of the seriousness of the problem at the present time. The better way for them to understand and get a thorough insight into it would be to go down into those districts where unemployment exists at the present time.
We have been told that we ought to consider this scheme in conjunction with the other schemes which the Government have brought forward, and that we ought to have a greater measure of faith in those schemes. If there is any lack of faith on the part of anyone at the present time, it is not shown by the people on these Benches, but really by the Government and their followers in their attitude towards this and similar Amendments. What is the real object of the other schemes? It is, very largely, to provide employment. I have said before that, if the Government have faith in those schemes and really do believe that they are going to give a large measure of employment to great masses of people who are unemployed at the present time, the effect will be to reduce the number of unemployed, so that you will have a far less number who will make a claim upon the provisions which are now being made. I believe that those schemes, if they do fructify, will have the effect that we on this side contemplate, and therefore the right hon. Gentleman—whose great fault, if I may say so, is over caution with regard to these matters—will have a far greater amount of money at his disposal for granting relief than he himself contemplates. We on these Benches have far more faith in the schemes to which he is a party than he and his colleagues have. If they have faith in their own schemes, they must confess that the result will be that there will be less unemployment, and, consequently, fewer claims on the fund, and it must follow, therefore, that we can allow more. That is logical, assuming that the schemes, will fructify on the lines indicated.
6.0 P.M.
We have been repeatedly asked where the money is coming from. If we pride ourselves upon anything as a nation, it is that we are a nation which is moved more or less by Christian ethics. If anyone wanted to insult us, they would only have to say that we were an un-Christian country. That would arouse the ire of the country sooner than anything else. What we ask is that, out of the general resources of the country, such provision shall be made for the residue of the population who are so unfortunate as not to be able to obtain employment, and, therefore, unable to sustain themselves, that the physical standard of their life shall not be affected. That is what is contained in this Amendment. Translated into food and clothing, it is an attempt to meet the physical requirements of the people more in consonance with their physical demands. This sum, added to the sums they will be entitled to as members of the unemployment scheme, is not consonant with the physical demands which will be made upon them, and the health of the people must decline, and that at a time when the demands are greater. In summertime less clothing and less food are required. A man does not need so much to sustain him as in winter. Also these is no coal required. We have now got to a season when the demands upon the resources will be greater, and it is at that time that the Government come down with proposals which are totally inadequate to meet the requirements of the people.
I am connected with associations which have been doing their utmost to relieve the distress in their own districts, but the continued bad trade and short time have made it imperative for us to reduce the levy that we have been putting upon our men. The members in my area started with 4s. a week. We had to reduce it to 3s., and now we have reduced it again to 2s., because those who are employed are only employed half-time, and they are not in a position to meet the demands that we are making upon them. We have paid, since we returned to work on 15th July, no less than £40,000, with a membership of just over 40,000, and the members cannot continue it, and they have decided that for the first fortnight of this month the out-of-work pay will have to be half-pay, and at the end of the month it will have to cease altogether. Supplementary sources of income are constantly drying up, and more than ever, as the income contracts and the demands of the people, owing to the season, expand, food will have to be found from somewhere, and if the Government will not make provision in a Bill of this character you will inevitably drive people to seek relief from the guardians. That source is as limited as most other sources, and it is, at the best, repulsive to the enlightened manhood of our nation, and I can only wish that the plea that has been put forward from these Benches had been more sympathetically listened to than it has been. The attitude of the Government strikes a most serious blow at the stability of constitutional institutions. Cabinet government may have advantages and may be good, but for the Cabinet to decide that they will not exceed 5s., and to refuse to leave it to the free will of the House, is doing more harm to constitutional institutions than all the Communists and Bolshevists together. This is a question on which there should be an opportunity for a free expression of opinion. If there were no Whips put on, and if hon. Members who were brought into immediate touch with the poverty of the country were free, we should get a victory on this Amendment, because they would be animated with the desire to relieve the distress with which they have come in contact.
I am rather sorry to intervene in this Debate, because it appears to me that many Members are getting a little weary, but I want to draw attention to an incident that I saw in my own town yesterday morning. As I went to catch a train to come to London, I saw a procession of unemployed, consisting of hundreds of men whom I knew, on their way to the workhouse to try to impress upon the guardians the necessity of increasing the amount of relief paid to them. That procession, it appeared to me, gave omens of very great danger indeed, because very many police accompanied it. I have lived in the town all my life and I know it was representative of hard-working, honest men. I will guarantee that 90 per cent. of them would thank God if {here were work they could do, so that they could live honestly by honest toil. That was the character of the procession. We are asking you to increase the amount of payment to a wife from 5s. to 10s. I agree with the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson) that the whole amount that is represented by a sufficiency of living for the unemployed ought to have been in this Bill. It ought not to have been left to the local authorities to supplement any allowance made by Parliament by outdoor relief. Take the position of the guardians. In some localities the poor-rate is 12s. in the £. In others it is only 2s. The responsibility for the unemployed ought to be spread over the whole country. What was the position of our guardians yesterday morning? With an overdraft of £100,000 from the bank, they were unable to grant sufficient relief to meet the needs of the people. If the Minister would increase this amount to 10s. it would relieve the guardians to some extent. But let us look at it. You have introduced this Bill after a long period of unemployment. The president of our Co-operative Society told me that thousands of pounds had been taken out during the last 12 months by hard-working thrifty men. From other sources I learn that patriotic working men who had invested in War Loan were having to sell out. After a long period of unemployment you now bring forward this paltry Bill that proposes to give 5s. to the wife and a 1s. to each child.
I noticed that the men in this procession were very poorly clad and they looked very poorly fed. Let us be as moderate as we may but, as representatives of these men in this House, we ought to speak with no uncertain voice and say that this Bill does not represent the wants of the people and does not represent what is wanted by the local authorities. They have repeatedly sent to hon. Members, apart from resolutions which have been sent by the unemployed men themselves, to press the Government to give adequate assistance to the unemployed. I hope the Minister of Labour will leave the position he has taken up. It is not a good position to tell us as a party, doing our level best to uphold the conditions of the country as well as any other section of the House, that whatever we may do, no concessions are going to be made. I ask him at least to make this concession, that the wife shall receive 10s., and in doing so the State will to a very great extent relieve the responsibility of some of the guardians. If they will not do it in this way the Government ought to take the responsibility of paying the difference between the abnormal relief the guardians have to pay and the normal relief they used to have to pay. They ought to accept that responsibility and not place the whole of the responsibility on the industrial communities where unemployment is very great indeed.
I hope hon. Members who are hoping the Division will take place in order that they can have a comfortable dinner which will just equal the cost of the proposed Amendment will possess themselves in patience while we attempt to put one side of the position which has a semblance of realism against the theoretical ramblings of a Gentleman who should have lived many centuries ago. [HON. MEMBERS: "Name!"] Those Gentlemen who have paid the piper will probably know the smoker. I should like to quote some resolutions from local authorities that I have received. One reads as follows: On the last occasion on which I spoke I referred to some of the rates that were being levied in the Dartford Division. In order to show that there are people taking an interest in this matter, I would like to read correspondence that I have received. I mentioned a figure of 29s. 8d. as being one rate levied in one part of the constituency which I represent. I have received a letter from one of my constituents, who states:
I am not quite so optimistic as one of my hon. Friends. I believe that if the Whips were taken off, half the hon. Members would walk home and would not take part in the Division, so that they would be able to say that they did not vote against the Amendment, whereas, owing to their allegiance to the Government they will be compelled to vote against it. Having regard to the experience we have had of some hon. Members of this House in regard to the expenditure on British humans, as against expenditure on matters dealing with the auriferious imperialism that they represent in this House, I have no illusions as to the way in which their votes will be cast. I hope that my words will go beyond the walls of this House, and that the unemployed in every division inside and outside London will exercise their statutory right to come here in their misery, and show to those Members who presume to represent them exactly what they intend to do, and how they intend to exist on the beggarly proposition that is now put before the House for the relief of people who want work and not starvation during the coming winter
I always understood that when we were begging for, reasoning for, and arguing for a Ministry of Labour, that the Ministry of Labour would be an office that would do something to co-relate human effort to human needs. Here you have human effort wasted, and no attempt made to bring it into relation with human needs. It is beyond the function of the Minister of Labour in his office to bring the workless men and the workless women into touch with work. All you have to do is to put forward estimates, and when they are turned down by half it is your duty to stand at that Box and justify them. It is a travesty of the position of a Minister of Labour to carry on in that way, and I am hoping that sooner or later this Government or the Government that succeeds it, will introduce into the duties of the holder of that portfolio, some semblance of reality, and that the Minister of Labour will see to it that men need not walk the streets and that women need not walk the streets or do that which is worse than starvation, namely, go to a living death, because the opportunities of existence are denied to them
I feel sure that the Minister of Labour is not standing by this proposal because he feels it to be adequate. He tells us that it is limited by the amount of money that he can raise outside, and by the Financial Resolution that has been agreed to by the House. I believe that the difficulties of the Government and of the Ministry of Labour have largely arisen because they have lacked imagination and appreciation of the grave situation that will confront this country within the next few months. We are considering proposals designed to create a, special fund in order to tide us over a special emergency. That fund is to be worked in conjunction with the existing Unemployment Insurance Act, and is to be raised by joint contributions of certain employers and certain workmen, and a contribution from the Government. The basis on which that fund is to be raised is utterly wrong and far too circumscribed in its scope.
The hon. Member must not go into a general discussion of the Bill on this Amendment. He must confine his remarks to the question raised by the Amendment
The point I was trying to make was that the Minister of Labour will tell us that he does not believe that 5s. or 10s. is too much to give, or that a family living on such a pittance can be considered to be living in affluence or that they are having even the very bare necessities of life. He will go on to tell us that he is limited by the amount of money that he can raise. If I can tell him, within the limits of debate, where he can find scope in the country for getting additional funds, which would be more than willingly given, I hope that even at this hour he will take that point into consideration. He is raising funds from employers of labour who are already paying contributions to the National In surance Fund in respect of their workmen. Many of those employers are running their concerns without profit, and they are going to have imposed on them an additional tax by this Bill. There are employés, many of whom are only getting two, three or four days a week work, and they are to have an additional tax imposed upon them. The Minister of Labour would find that there are thousands of workmen and employers who are doing fairly well at the moment who will escape the effects of this Bill.
I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but he must recollect that we are now on the Report stage of the Bill, and that that question has been settled by the House at an earlier stage. It would not now be relevant. The question before the House is whether the amount shall be 5s. or 10s.
I will not attempt to pursue that point any further. I believe the Government have landed themselves in this difficulty by their lack of imagination, and their failure to perceive the needs of thousands of homes during the coming winter. Having once made a mistake, the obligation to make provision now rests upon the Government, because in this country we are not entitled to allow people to starve. Only the other week we heard from the Prime Minister, with that rhetoric of which only he is capable, that so long as there is one crumb in the cupboard no one shall be allowed to starve. Does the Minister of Labour or the Prime Minister know that at this hour there are thousands of men, women and children starving, through no fault of their own. So long as that is so, it is the duty of the Ministry of Labour and the duty of the Government to face boldly the situation which exists at the moment, and will exist to a far greater degree in the months that lie ahead. Therefore, I urge the Minister of Labour to consider fully the whole situation in a generous spirit, and to respond sympathetically to the appeal that has been made on behalf of our less fortunate citizens. If he has to make an appeal for additional funds to those who are in a position to give assistance to those who are starving, the Government win meet with a generous response.
I do not ask the right hon. Gentleman to be kind to the poor. I have no faith either in the Government or in the Minister, or in his Bill. I wish to point out to the Government that as they have introduced a Bill of this sort they might, at least, make it as much in accordance with common sense and decent humanity as is reasonably possible. They are proposing to give to an unemployed man and his wife 20s. a week. It is obvious that a man and his wife cannot live on 20s. a week. They cannot possibly keep body and soul together on 20s. a week. Therefore, an additional drain has to be made upon the public somehow or other. Somebody has to contribute additional money in order to keep them alive, and it is a question, first of all, where that money is to come from. The right hon. Gentleman will say that it must come from the ratepayers, because the fund which he has set up under this 9d. for 4d. Bill will not stand the payment of any additional money. The argument is that 5s. can be found, but 10s. cannot be found, and that if 10s. is taken out of the fund the fund will be bankrupt. If he takes the extra money out of the guardians of the poor, the guardians of the poor will be bankrupt. The point is, whether it is to come from the guardians and make the guardians bankrupt, or whether it is to come from the fund and make the fund bankrupt. The right hon. Gentleman knows that the fund will not be bankrupt. He knows that he has so specially arranged this Bill and this fund that it cannot be bankrupt. He has a permanent lien upon the employers and the workers of this country. Long after this wave of unemployment has passed the workmen must go on paying their 2d. a week until the fund is put in funds again and the employers will have to go on paying to the fund. The fund can get into debt, but it will be all right, because the right hon. Gentleman is going to tax posterity in order to make the fund solvent. In that way I would prefer to draw upon a fund which is solvent rather than upon the guardians of the poor who are insolvent.
The ordinary Member seems to think that an advance of 5s. would mean an additional burden on the community and that there will be more wasters hanging about and fewer producers producing goods. That is not so. The community will have to pay in any case. They have got to keep these people, alive. Whether we keep to this sum of 5s. or not makes no difference to the community as a whole. The only question is, how is the money to come? The point is simply this. Is it not more decent for a decent hard-working man who has found himself thrown out of work through no fault of his own to get his money as a right under the insurance scheme than to have to form up and petition for it from the guardians of the poor? That is the whole point—whether you are going to put men on the Poor Law or on a fund to which they have some claim and to which they pledge their labour for all time. It is infinitely preferable to preserve the man's self-respect and the sense of honour of the whole community by having this increase of 5s. paid out of the fund rather than paid by the guardians with the result of driving them further and further into bankruptcy. I beg all those people who think it impossible for a man and woman to live on 20s. a week to remember that if they vote to leave out 5s. they do not necessarily pledge themselves to put in 10s., but simply to give some increase on 5s., which is absolutely necessary. It is not as if these people had to do with eggs without milk or vegetables for dinner. That is not how people are living now. After seven years of full work people have attained a better standard of comfort, and to put these people back into the abyss by lowering the present standard will be not only a crime against Society, but will act disastrously to the whole national moral and physique.
We were told by the Minister a short time ago that this Amendment would result in having to find £5,400,000, and I understood from him that this money cannot be found. Last night when we were discussing Ireland we were told that if the necessity arose the whole resources of the country would be used to defeat the Irish. Where would that money come from?
The hon. Member must not introduce a topic of that kind. I pointed out just now that the House by Resolution at an earlier stage had fixed the State contribution towards this Bill.
Is it not possible to get the money from some source which is at the disposal of the Government and for an object much more deserving than the objects for which we sometimes find money? The economic side of this question has been pretty well thrashed out, but I would like to say a word as to the human side. I am not a Labour Leader or a trade union secretary, but my home has always been among the people in the cottages. I want to get right back to the homes of these people. I heard what was said to-night about people having to go to the guardians, but there are many thousands of men who do not go to the guardians at all. Their savings are gone, their trade, union pay is exhausted, their friends resources are exhausted. In many cases little treasures which they had have had to be given up and they have sold some of the furniture from their homes and are trying to live on the allowance under the Insurance Act which is all they have coming in.
Following the argument of the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood), I may
take the case of a man and woman with two children. I know from actual experience in the homes of these people that it costs them 3d. per head per meal. You cannot get a very good meal for less than 3d. I believe that hon. Gentlemen, who in a few moments will go into the Lobby against this Amendment, will spend a good many threepences on their dinner when they go upstairs. But 3d. per head is a shilling per meal, and with three meals a day that is 3s. a day, or 21s. a week. Where is all the rest to come from? There is no rent, no rates, no clothes, no little perquisites such as must come into a home to ensure its comfort—no coal, nothing else. This has had to be done in the district which I live and which I represent. I cannot speak with so much authority with regard to London. What sort of a meal is it that is got for 3d? It does not amount to much—a bit of bread and margarine for breakfast, a bit of bread and margarine for dinner, and the same for tea, and no supper, and the child who has gone to bed at 5 o'clock or 6 o'clock at night will have nothing more until 9 in the morning. Yet hon. Members on that side, knowing nothing of the stern reality in the homes of these people, are going into the Lobby to vote against this extra 5s., as I daresay later on they will vote against the 2s. for the children. I believe that it is possible to get round this Financial Resolution. I have no long Parliamentary experience, but it seems to me that Financial Resolutions are passed at the wrong end, that they should come at the end of the Bill instead of the beginning, and then we should know where we are. I believe it possible for the money to be found. I believe it possible for the Government to get round this Financial Resolution, and knowing, as I do, and as few Members of this House do, the sufferings of the poor in the cottages of the country, I have no hesitation in going into the Lobby in support of the Amendment.
Question put, "That the word 'five' stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 212; Noes, 88.
Division No. 363.] AYES. [6.40 p.m. Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Barnett, Major Richard W. Armitage, Robert Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City of Lon.) Barnston, Major Harry Armstrong, Henry Bruce Balfour, George (Hampstead) Beauchamp, Sir Edward Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Banner, Sir John S. Harmood. Bonn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Betterton, Henry B. Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Bigland, Alfred Haslam, Lewis Nield, Sir Herbert Birchall, Major J. Dearman Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Blades, Sir George Rowland Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Blake, Sir Francis Douglas Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Borwick, Major G. O. Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L. Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Hinds, John Parker, James Brown, Major D. C. Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Perkins, Walter Frank Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington) Perring, William George Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hopkins, John W. W. Pickering, Colonel Emil W. Burdon, Colonel Rowland Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mosslay) Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Burgoyne, Lt.-Col. Alan Hughes. Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Pratt, John William Campbell, J. D. G. Howard, Major S. G. Prescott, Major W. H. Carew, Charles Robert S. Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Purchase, H. G. Carr, W. Theodore Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G. Raper, A. Baldwin Cautley, Henry Strother Hurd, Percy A. Ratcliffe, Henry Butler Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Reid, D. D. Cheyne, Sir William Watson Jameson, John Gordon Remer, J. R. Chichester, Col. Robert Jodrell, Neville Paul Renwick, Sir George Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill Johnson, Sir Stanley Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Churchman, Sir Arthur Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Clough, Sir Robert Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Roundell, Colonel R. F. Coats, Sir Stuart Kidd, James Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale King, Captain Henry Douglas Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill) Conway, Sir W. Martin Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Lane-Fox, G. R. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Brldgeton) Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Lindsay, William Arthur Seddon, J. A. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John Davies, Sir David Sanders (Denbigh) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tlngd'n) Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Lorden, John William Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Dawson, Sir Philip Loseby, Captain C. E. Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Lowe, Sir Francis William Smithers, Sir Alfred W. Doyle, N. Grattan Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith) Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Steel, Major S. Strang Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) M'Connell, Thomas Edward Stewart, Gershom Falcon, Captain Michael M'Guffin, Samuel Strauss, Edward Anthony Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Sturrock, J. Leng Fell, Sir Arthur McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester) Sugden, W. H. Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. McMicking, Major Gilbert Sutherland, Sir William FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A. Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Flannery, Sir James Fortescue Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Tryon, Major George Clement Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Macquisten, F. A. Waddington, R. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Maddocks, Henry Watson, Captain John Bertrand Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Ganzoni, Sir John Manville, Edward White, Col. G. D. (Southport) Gardiner, James Marks, Sir George Croydon Williams, C. (Tavistock) Gee, Captain Robert Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H. George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Wilson-Fox, Henry Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Morden, Col. W. Grant Wise, Frederick Gilbert, James Daniel Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Woolcock, William James U. Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Morris, Richard Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Morrison, Hugh Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Young, E. H. (Norwich) Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar Murray, William (Dumfries) Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Greig, Colonel James William Nall, Major Joseph Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E. Neal, Arthur TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Hailwood, Augustine Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. Dudley Ward. Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Grundy, T. W. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Davies, John (Lancs, Westhoughton) Halls, Walter Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Hayday, Arthur Barton, Sir William (Oldham) Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath) Hayward, Evan Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Entwistle, Major C. F. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Finney, Samuel Hirst, G. H. Bromfield, William Galbraith, Samuel Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Gillls, William Hogge, James Myles Cairns, John Glanville, Harold James Holmes, J. Stanley Cape, Thomas Goff, Sir R. Park Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Irving, Dan Casey, T. W. Gretton, Colonel John John, William (Rhondda, West) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Gritten, W. G. Howard Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Tillett, Benjamin Kelly, Edward J. (Donegal, East) Rose, Frank H. Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Lunn, William Royce, William Stapleton Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D. Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Sexton, James Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. MacVeagh, Jeremiah Shaw, Thomas (Preston) White, Charles F (Derby, Western) Martin, A. E. Sitch, Charles H. Wignall, James Mills, John Edmund Smith, Sir Malcolm (Orkney) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) Myers, Thomas Spencer, George A. Wilson, James (Dudley) Newbould, Alfred Ernest Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Swan, J. E. Wintringham, Margaret O'Connor, Thomas P. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) O'Grady, James Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Yeo, Sir Alfred William Raffan, Peter Wilson Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) TELLERS FOR THE NOES .—.— Mr. T. Griffiths and Mr. Lawson.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words "one shilling," and to insert instead thereof the words "two shillings."
I think the Minister of Labour told the House earlier that the Government were prepared to abandon their official recognition of the Malthusian principle, and were also prepared to assist to some extent those children who would remain at school after the age of 14. Although those two points are of considerable value, they do not alter the attitude which the House should take in regard to this Amendment. In speaking on the last Amendment, the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Thomson) pointed out that this Bill is, primarily speaking, a Bill in relief of rates, and that just as this Bill fails adequately to relieve rates, or is thought by many people to fail, so certain districts have to pay much more heavily when they can least afford it. There is another aspect of the question worthy of consideration. In those areas where the rates are the greatest burden, are situated works, which are working either short time or not working at all, and the burden, which is being added to them in the shape of rates, is making it much more difficult for those works to work full time or to do any work at all.
By making in this Bill inadequate provision for the relief of rates, you are making it so much more difficult for industry to restart after a period of very bad trade, and you are working in a vicious circle. You have to get rid of that vicious circle and that can be done only by distributing the burden more evenly throughout the country. It is obvious that the whole system of unemployment at the moment is not spread evenly throughout the country. It is more predominant in some districts than in others. Yet the Minister of Labour is not making adequate provision for that particular point of view. There is another aspect. The Minister told us that this Bill was only one of several schemes of the Government for dealing with unemployment. That is true. We who are in touch with what is going on probably understand the point. But the Minister does not make sufficient allowance for human nature as it exists; he does not realise that everybody is not in the fortunate position of the Minister of Labour. Everybody does not stand upon the mountain-tops and survey the whole scene round about. The average man or woman is faced by a brick wall, and not by a large vista, and the average man or woman will look on this Bill as the limit of generosity on the part of the Government in regard to this question. They will not understand what the export credits scheme is likely to do to help unemployment, for the matter is too highly technical. I do not think the Minister has made sufficient allowance for that fact.
Therefore, from a psychological point of view, if this Bill is to do the good which it should do, apart from the relief of rates, in the amount it proposes to give to the wife and children, it should be sufficiently generous to make the Bill one which can be justified to the average man and woman. I do not consider that to offer a shilling a week for each child is an adequate amount. I am convinced that any man or any hon. Member who went to his wife and said, "I will give you 1s. for each child you have, and out of that you can proceed to pay the weekly housekeeping for the children," would probably be very sorry for having made the suggestion. I know it may be said that if this Bill is not adequate the people will go to the rates; but that is not the way to look at the Bill. The question is whether the amounts you are offering are amounts which can be reasonably said to be sufficient. It is better to make a good offer or to make no offer at all. I know that you cannot expect people in employment to be called upon to contribute to other people who are out of employment an amount which is actually larger than that which they themselves are receiving. That is sound logic. I do not think my proposal will have that result. I believe that the Bill and the suggested Amendments in regard to wives and children would not have been necessary if two years ago, when the National Industrial Conference was sitting, the whole question of unemployment insurance had been taken in hand. It was not done then. Why, I do not know. I am sure that was a great and terrible misfortune. It is because that opportunity was lost that I would like to make my protest, apart from the Amendment I have moved.
I beg to second the Amendment.
The point at which I am supporting my hon. and gallant Friend is simply this, that the percentage of this grant allotted to wife and child is not in any way in agreement with the amount which we have adopted in similar cases, for instance, under the Ministry of Pensions. No doubt the Minister had a very difficult position, and we shall all agree that he must cut his coat according to his cloth. None the less the percentage is quite wrong. There is a proposal here to give a certain amount for a wife. The Bill gives only an additional 20 per cent. for each child. Under the Ministry of Pensions there was a sum of 10s. for a wife, and for each child 7s. 6d. That is to say, 75 per cent. additional was given for the keep of a child under the Pensions Warrant. I can see no reason why it should be only 20 per cent. in the case of this grant. As a mere medical matter it must be agreed that the keep of the child, certainly in many cases, is equivalent to the keep of an adult, and it certainly is not one-fifth of the keep of an adult. It may be said that the child is not solely dependent on this grant but can get meals under the school feeding schemes. It is only fair to take that into account, but we must remember that the most necessitous child, the baby, is not getting any sum under those schemes. A man and a wife and a baby with 21s. a week are in a very much worse position than a man and wife with £1.
The man who has taken the responsibility of starting a home is the man on whom the grinding pressure of a period of economic depression bears more heavily than on any other class of our citizens. Take the case of the ex-service man who has recently got married and has started to bring up a family. In most cases his baby can get nourishment only by the wife. You cannot allow infant feeding under the various school feeding schemes fully to take the place of giving the money to the woman to spend on behalf of her child. She is the natural protector of the child, and it is to her we must entrust the funds to be administered on behalf of the child. I beg the Minister to reflect on the Pensions Warrant figures, and to contrast them with the figures of this Bill. It will be agreed that the percentage of food required for the upkeep of a family is not in the proportion of 20 per cent. for each child, but much more like 75 per cent. for each child, compared with the cost of food for a mother.
7.0 P.M.
My name is associated with an Amendment on the Paper similar to the one now before the House. We are very glad to find ourselves with the prospect of much greater support in relation to this Amendment than we have been able to receive in regard to quite a number of other proposals submitted from this side of the House. The right hon. Gentleman, in stating the case generally as to the different provisions of this Bill, has reminded the House that it is only one of several proposals in a more or less comprehensive scheme of the Government for dealing with unemployment. We know that to be true, but I think, in the proposals he has made in this Bill, he has overlooked the fact that it will take a long time, months in the case of certain of the other proposals of the Government, to take effect so as in any way seriously to reduce the number of unemployed in this country. The steps to be taken by local authorities, the steps in connection with the assistance to trade: under schemes either of credit, loan or insurance, will surely take a considerable time to set the wheels of industry going in a manner to absorb any large number of the men and women now out of work. I challenge the right hon. Gentleman to disprove that statement. If he cannot disprove it, and if he accepts it, then I say that the temporary pro^ vision which he is making in this Bill, a provision to be discontinued at the end of six months, must be admitted to be wholly inadequate for the special purposes for which it is proposed.
Let us see whether it is not so. I am certain that an appeal on such a really human issue as this, touching possibly the daily feeding of hundreds of thousands of children, will be regarded by the House as quite an outstanding proposal, deserving the fullest non-party consideration. As has been already pointed out, the 1s. per child to be granted to the wife or the husband is, in the case of this particular fund and this grant, less than has ever been proposed in like circumstances in relation to any other fund or benefit. As has just been proved to the House by the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Elliot) who seconded this Amendment, this 1s. is not merely an insignificant or inadequate, but is really a paltry sum in comparison with any figure previously applied for the maintenance or the assistance of the maintenance of children who have been in a deserving condition. We recall the fund started soon after the War began, which was not organised in a legislative sense under State auspices, but very much stimulated by public effort and public proclamation. I refer to what was known as the Prince of Wales' Fund. That was a fund started within a few months, perhaps even within a few weeks of the outbreak of War, because it was seen that a considerable number of people would at once be thrown out of work from the first effects of the War. We know that children who, in large numbers, became special recipients of support in connection with relief under that fund, received very much larger sums than this insignificant 1s. per week per child proposed by this Bill. May I ask the House again to remember that this is not a Bill proposing to amend the Unemployment Insurance Act, or to establish any permanent form of benefit for those who are in need.
Hear, hear!
It is a Bill to establish a fund, for six months, of Government grants upon a family basis. Single men, those who have no responsibilities and obligations of wife and family, can expect nothing from this Bill. It is a special and quite novel proposal, as far as legislation is concerned, to deal with specially necessitous cases. How far are we dealing with them? The House has disposed of the question of 5s. in the case of a woman or husband, and we cannot return to it. We are dealing, however, with children. The first fact that I would put to the right hon. Gentleman is this: Where you have children in the household, and particularly because in this case they must be young children, you have a condition of domestic need which does not exist in the case of the other families, and if you are going to do anything at all to assist them you must make your assistance real and substantial. The right hon. Gentleman intends to remove the bar as to the number of children, within a certain age limit, who can receive the grant of 1s. At most, I suppose it is unlikely that many families will make claims for more than five children below the age, say, of 14. The total assistance, then, under this Bill to be given in the case of five children is 5s. a week. I am sure no hon. Member here would say that that is sufficient.
The argument is that that is as much as the financial provisions of this Bill can afford. I deny it, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman's attention to my denial. I deny that the 1s. per child is the limit that can be afforded under the financial provisions already passed by this House, and embodied in the terms of the Bill. One Clause of the Bill provides that if the money paid in the form of grants out of the fund exceeds what goes into the fund, payments can be continued by certificate. This is a temporary Bill, to terminate within six months from now, or from the date of its coming into operation, which will be in the course of about a week or so. Our proposal, if met, would merely mean that the right hon. Gentleman would have to authorise by certificate a continuity of payment under the financial provisions of this Bill, in order that any excess that might be shown at the end of the six months should be made good by continuity of contributions from all sources. So there is that legislative device by which he can overcome the financial barrier. I ask for some reply to that. What is the purpose of this particular provision if it be not that of making good any excess of grants which may have been made out of the funds?
Let me suggest another argument. I have spoken of five children in a family. Even given that number, this grant in such a family, would only restore the amount by which the unemployment benefit was deliberately reduced by this House when the Amending Bill relating to the Unemployment Insurance Act was before it in the summer of this year. I have put a point to the right hon. Gentleman before, which I venture to repeat. I will say in the interests of the children that my right hon. Friend has dwelt upon the severities of the coming winter, during which period the hardships will be far harder to bear than in the summer-time. The children will want more clothing, more food, and more general provision in the way of their bodily needs than during the summer. Yet, on the basis of this 1s. per child, a family of five would actually be getting no more than was taken from them by the action of the Government in amending the Unemployed Insurance Act in the summer. That is not making any real contribution, and it is certainly not an addition to the family income, at a time when everyone admits that the necessities of the season make the difficulties of an ordinary household very much harder to bear. If the right hon. Gentleman cannot see his way to use to the full this statutory device which he has provided, then I suggest that he has deliberately framed a Bill on financial lines which are totally inadequate to the admitted needs of any ordinary family.
In an earlier discussion, the right hon. Gentleman, in response to a thrust of my own, to the effect that I felt he could take but little pride in his Bill—I almost went to the length of hinting that he was about ashamed of it—rather severely reproved me for that assertion, and claimed that he was not ashamed of it.
Hear, hear!
With all respect, if he was not then ashamed of his Bill, he ought to be ashamed of it if he refuses to make a concession of the kind we are pressing in this Amendment. For, badly as the wife and the husband have been treated with respect to the amount of the grant, it would really be worse to offer no more to a family than 1s. per child. That, certainly, could be only a pretence of giving them substantial aid at the time of their sorest need. Clearly, then, the sum is inadequate, and this being a temporary, seasonable and winter provision, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to leave this matter freely to the judgment of the House, and in no way to use the resources of the party Whips in order to bring into the Lobby in his favour hon. Members who may not have heard a word of this Debate. Let hon. Members who will later come into the House be left free to decide what is the outstanding human issue. If they have that freedom, I am certain they will find a way of making this 1s. into 2s.
We have had the advantage of listening to three very powerful speeches with regard to a matter on which I have no doubt many sections of the House, and indeed all of them, feel much in common. My hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Henderson), who moved the Amendment, contributed a remark which I really thought was ironical, if not intentionally so. He said it was not everybody who was as lucky as the Minister of Labour. I do not share that view, because I do not think he is lucky. While one is very glad indeed of the honour and responsibility, I do not think one is lucky in having this particular office. Then my hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Elliot) said we ought to have dealt with this question at the National Industrial Conference. That conference came to a deadlock, because the labour representatives there wanted a non-contributory scheme and the employers wanted a contributory scheme. That is why we did not get any further. No doubt we have many of our own misdeeds to be responsible for, but my hon. Friends should not seek to make us responsible for others, which are not ours. I need not spend any time in enlarging upon the hopelessly straitened condition of our national finance. It is a matter of which the House is painfully aware. In an earlier speech to-night there was a Biblical reference to the unfortunate widow which I might take up. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is by my side and, like a good Scotsman, he is faithful to his Bible. I think he might be forgiven if, in this case, he struck the widow out of the picture and substituted the Minister of Labour, because I have searched every pocket he has got and have even felt my way carefully around the lining to see if I could find any more money for these schemes.
You should have searched his stocking. He is a Scotsman.
I would remind my hon. Friends that this is only one part of a many-sided endeavour. Our main objective is to do what we can to revivify British trade and industry upon an economic basis, and certain expedients which we put forward, we hope will tend in that direction. Then, again, we are endeavouring to move along a parallel but more immediate line by cooperating with local authorities to find work. Finally, there comes the obligation to find succour for those who are in distress. Here, again, part of our scheme is to give relief to guardians who are heavily pressed. A Supplementary Estimate will be discussed this week, which shows that outside the Trade Facilities Bill, outside the guaranteeing of the £25,000,000—which hon. Members have accused us of handing over to capitalists—outside the guarantee to local authorities in respect of loans raised for relief works—outside all those, this Estimate will show for relief works, for assistance to guardians, for State contribution to this particular Bill, and for overseas settlement, a sum of not less than £12,000,000. That is apart from all these other things I have mentioned. As regards unemployment insurance, the new special period of benefit begins next Thursday, and the first payment will be made next Saturday. On the basis of 1,500,000 people being unemployed during the whole winter, no less than £25,000,000 will be dispensed in benefit during the next six months. Three-quarters of that, I admit, consists of the contributions of the employers and the employed persons. My right hon. Friend talks about the National Relief Fund which we called the Prince of Wales' Fund. Let me say that, in addition to this £25,000,000 which will be dispensed, the Act has already found £50,000,000 for unemployment benefit. As I say, I admit, and I am happy to admit, that three-quarters of that comes in contributions from employers and employed. These facts, however, should not be lost sight of. With regard to this particular Measure, it began with a State contribution of £2,500,000. That contribution is now £3,000,000, and we hope to be able to give during the winter 5s. a week, for six months or thereabouts, to 750,000 wives and 1s. a week to something like 1,400,000 children. That may not be all we should wish for, but, taken in conjunction with other parts of our proposal, it does not deserve the sharp denunciation which my right hon. Friend gave it. The original proposal was that there should be 1s. a week for each dependent child up to the number of four. I said earlier in the day that I would agree with an Amendment that that limit should be withdrawn.
Is that the only concession?
I have said, and I repeat it, that this particular proposal may not be all we would desire, but I will be perfectly frank with the House. I told the House last Wednesday that it would involve £1,600,000 to raise the children's allowance from 1s. to 2s. The alterations we have made in the Bill since that would make that now £1,700,000, and all I have to say is that we cannot do it. Since I have introduced this Bill, I have made several concessions to meet the special cases which were brought before me. I met the case of a man with a family of little children who has a woman to look after them. I extended the Bill to Ireland, I gave other concessions, and now the right hon. Gentleman says to me, "If your money Resolution ties you up, you have at the end of the Bill an expedient by which you can go on collecting contributions." That is so. I have already increased the number of weeks by six on account of these concessions. If I accepted this I should have to add another eight and a half weeks, which is to say that for 14½ weeks I should have to go on collecting contributions after the period of the receipt of grants or benefits had closed. Is that feasible?
Certainly.
You are not sure yet about the 700,000 women.
That is what the actuary tells me, and it is all I can go upon.
He will tell you a lot of things.
I do put it to right hon. and hon. Members opposite, is it a practicable proposition to go on for 14½ weeks collecting contributions? I do not make much point of this because it would not be fair, but already there has been some objection to the workmen paying at all. Am I to go on perpetuating that payment for 14½ weeks. [HON. MEMBERS: "Certainly."] Then I give it up. I cannot follow that argument.
In the interval, before they are in more regular employment?
I do not want to labour the point, but I do not think it is a practicable proposition to continue the payment for the further eight and a half weeks. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lanark (Captain Elliot) recalled old memories to me when he referred to the Act for the provision of meals for school children. That has also got to be taken into account at this time. With the late Sir John Gorst, I took a considerable part in connection with the passing of that Act—
Forced upon you by organised labour outside.
The hon. Member will please not make these interjections.
I cannot help it, Mr. Speaker.
The right hon. Gentleman must be permitted to speak without interruption. The hon. Member will doubtless have an opportunity.
I think we are entitled to call attention to that as an indication of our endeavours both at this time and before to do what we could. Under that Act over 46,000,000 meals have been provided for children attending public elementary schools, and that has been done under it in the last six months. I admit the local authorities paid half and the State paid half. Let me say that in one certain week the total meals supplied numbered over 3,500,000. You cannot leave that out in stating the whole of the endeavour which has been made. As I say, I have agreed to strike out the limit as to the number of children. There is another matter in regard to which I would be very glad to move an Amendment myself. There is a proposal to give this 1s., such as it is, to children up to the age of 16 who are attending school. I should be very glad to do what I can in that direction, because undoubtedly many workmen have been making very great sacrifices during the period of their unemployment by keeping at school children come of whom were holding scholarships which they did not want to forego. If I can scrape up the money in any quarter I cannot resist an appeal of that sort, and therefore I propose to move to go beyond the age of 14 and up to the age of 15 in cases where children are regularly attending a place of daily instruction.
Why not 16?
I have to consider ways and means, and to do the best I can with the money.
May I interrupt to remind the right hon. Gentleman of the fact that local authorities compel children to say they will stay at school until they are 16.
I will bring the age up to 15, which is as far as I can go. I do these things because we have to consider the needs of the families who are concerned, but let me be quite frank and say that it will involve a very serious charge upon the Exchequer. It would be a very serious thing if the House agrees with the statement, that we have not done all we could do, and I am sure my statement of what we have done, will be accepted as perfectly sincere. All I can say is that I would ask my hon. and right hon. Friends opposite to go into the Lobby with me, against this Amendment simply on the ground that we cannot possibly do what we are being asked to do. One point more. I am asked to leave this to the House and to take a vote free from the Party Whips. After all, the Government has got to find this money. The House of Commons may vote it, but the Government' must find it. One thing which the Government would not be entitled to do, on any question, would be to avoid its responsibilities as to the raising of the money. Therefore, while I ask hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite to go into the Lobby against this Amendment on the ground of necessity, much as I regret it, at the same time I cannot undertake under any circumstances to take off the Whips and leave it to the House.
While I welcome what the Minister of Labour has said, in regard to a subsequent Amendment standing in my name, I regret the decision which he has announced to us, and, I am sure, he regrets that he has had to announce it. There was one remark in the opening of his speech on which I would like to comment. It is a remark such as we hear far too often from Ministers responsible for Bills in this House. We are often told that outside this. House, in some negotiations which have taken place, agreement has not been reached and therefore any Government attempt is hopeless in regard to it. I have no doubt the difficulties there raised are great, but I object very strongly, as a Member of this House, to seeing its authority constantly set on one side by agreements which are arrived at outside the House. It is the function of this House to decide all these questions on their merits as they come before them.
My only reference to the National Conference was that it was they who were divided amongst themselves.
I just took the opportunity of making a statement with which I am sure every constitutionalist in this House will agree. The proposal now before the House is not one of charity at all; it is a question of justice. I often hear appeals made simply because it is on behalf of the child. That used to carry very great weight as a matter of sentiment in the older days, when the child was supposed to be the appanage or mere property of the parent, but we have moved very far from that in more recent times. The child is as much a citizen of this State as is the oldest, the richest, and the most powerful man in it. Its cause should not be pleaded here on any other basis than that. The interest of the State in the child is profound, and vital, and far-reaching. They are the citizens of the very near future who are going to take up the crushing burdens of the State under which we are now staggering, and what sound economy it is, on the ordinary basis of the material needs of the State, to see that these young citizens are not devitalised in these hard times and unable to bear their share when their time comes to take it over. My right hon. Friend made a pleasant allusion to his right hon. Friend and ours, if I may say so, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have no doubt that when he pleaded the cause of the wife to the Chancellor of the Exchequer he met with that amount of obduracy which he has shown to all the wise advice given to him by his more fortunate married friends, but middle-aged bachelors are surely susceptible to the appeal of other people's children, and I am sure my right hon. Friend is one of the most popular men with the children in other circumstances. I think that on the ground of the need of the children he might have given way to the earnest appeals which apparently were made to him by the Minister of Labour on this very Amendment. I do not think the Minister of Labour has really disposed of the argument put before him by my right hon. Friend the Member for Miles Platting (Mr. Clynes) that it is not outside the financial scope of this Bill. He has not satisfied me on that point. I believe it is not, and I hope, notwithstanding the final appeal which my right hon. Friend made to the House and the concessions he says he is about to give, that he will yet accede to the general desire of this House and assent to this Amendment.
It is a difficult matter, when the Minister of Labour suggests that a certain attitude on the part of the House would be a gracious one, to go into a Division which I am afraid my right hon. Friend will think ungracious. We all recognise the largeness of his heart, and if his pocket was as large as his heart, or if the Chancellor of the Exchequer's pocket was as large as the Minister of Labour's heart, there would be no difficulty; but it really is rather a painful Debate to which we have been listening. It is painful, because this perpetual struggle between those who are familiar with the difficulties of those who are in want, and want them to have more, and those who have to find the money, as my right hon. Friend has said, is a painful spectacle. At the same time I feel that my right hon. Friend here is in touch with a difficulty that he cannot get over by saying that the State cannot afford it. It really is too late to say that the State cannot afford £1,700,000. I have voted against the Government on these questions of expense when the Government has thought fit in its wisdom to press expenditure upon the House, but I cannot persuade myself, even when my two right hon. Friends sit there, with their great authority, that if it were a question of the State affording £1,700,000 the money could not be found. Therefore, that part of my right hon. Friend's argument does not appeal to me very much, and I have no doubt that a method could be found to square the account, even if he added on the debit side £1,700,000. The second part of his speech was devoted to telling us how much the Government is doing and how much money has been spent, but it does not help us very much to tell us that the Government has provided £25,000,000, or whatever the sum may be, unless he tells us how that provision is related to the need. Unless it satisfies the need, it is not enough to tell us that £25,000,000 is being provided. The factors are not all there. The question is, Has the need of the child been met?
This Bill is described as a Bill to provide something towards the maintenance of the child. Supposing we were considering, not money, but meal, and supposing this House saw a child in need, and we had a supply of meal about which we had to be provident, which was not endless, but still which was sufficient to provide for the child properly, would this House ever dream of doling out to the child something which would be notoriously inadequate for its physical needs? If we would take up that attitude with the meal, why cannot we take it up in the same way when it is a question of money? I cannot persuade myself that 1s. is any real contribution towards the maintenance of the child. If that is what we are doing to provide something adequate to maintain the child, I cannot believe that it is sufficient. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean), with whom, if I may say so, I find myself very often in agreement upon these questions, said it was not a matter of charity but of justice. I am not sure that I can agree with him there. I think this is a question of good citizenship, as he himself put it later on. It may be neither charity nor justice; it is a matter of good citizenship, and I am not ashamed to say that I am swayed to some extent by sentiment or by the appeal that one man ought to make to another. I am not ashamed of it, and I think this House ought not to be ashamed of it, and I think the country would think this House was right if it was swayed by sentiment on such questions as this. I was a spectator of an appealing scene this morning. In Buckingham Palace Road I saw the Colours passing by, and I saw a man in threadbare garments, with a little lad beside him, both of them obviously in poverty and distress, and the man bared his head and the little fellow saluted the Colours, and I cannot believe—it may seem sentimental—that it is right for us, if we are considering the needs of that lad, if we are intending to make provision towards his maintenance, to say, "Here is a shilling, and that is sufficient for supplying the needs of your body."
The right hon. Gentleman has given a decision which, I suppose, is the decision of the Cabinet, and I suppose it is a decision that no appeal will move. It is true the Government will have to find the money, and we sympathise with them in that, but whether it is to be found by a continuation of the number of weeks' contributions, or whether the money can be found elsewhere, is would be consonant with the general feeling of this House, it would be agreeable, I believe, to public opinion outside this House if, on the ground of good citizenship, this sum could be made, at any rate, a real contribution towards the object which we have before us, namely, the proper maintenance of the child.
I have listened with the very utmost interest to the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Inskip), and I thank him very much for the encouragement which he gives us to rely upon the human appeal in presenting the case which we are putting forward. I want to present a point of view that has not yet been stated, and perhaps the Minister of Labour will forgive me if I make this personal reference. He and I have one thing at least in common, and that is that we are both ex-teachers. I would like, if I could, to take Members of this House with me to an ordinary village school in these coming days. I would remind the House that the children who come to our village schools oftentimes have to traverse very difficult country in very difficult weather, to try to put in their regular attendance at their day school. I am quite sure that my right hon. Friend will agree with me that it is a most difficult thing for the teacher at any time to win his way to the heart of his children, but it is infinitely more difficult to do that and to persist in one's efforts, knowing, as one does frequently, that it is futile when the child to whom instruction is being given is hopelessly ill-fitted to receive it. From time to time it has been my unfortunate lot to address lessons to children who have had to come to school without breakfast, who are ill-clad and ill-fed, and I invite hon. Members opposite to tell me what sort of chance they have of getting an adequate return for the money which they spend upon education unless the child to whom the education is given is in a fit condition to receive it.
I want to put a point of view that perhaps may not be popular, but I put it. I suggest that it is not fair to the thousands of teachers up and down this country to expect them to work hard, as they are doing and as everyone will admit they are doing, to try to inculcate good and noble ideals into the children under these very distressing circumstances. I have oftentimes found my heart almost break as I tried to convey some little instruction to these children, who, I knew full well, on account of the emptiness of their stomachs, could not assimilate the knowledge I was trying to give. A reference has been made by a previous speaker, and I think by the Minister himself, to the fact that local authorities are using the measure for the feeding of necessitous school children, but may I remind the right hon. Gentleman that by reason of the fact that the local authorities have been doing that for the last six months—to the tune, in my own county of Glamorgan, of over 1,000,000 meals—it is absolutely necessary now that the burden should be lifted from their shoulders and a higher grant given for these children. They simply cannot go on; they cannot do it, for this reason. Their rates are high, but in addition to that they know that they have to call upon these very parents to repay the money through the rates, and they are really asked to get blood from a stone.
I would like to make one further point. During the election struggle I had to try to put the point of view in defence of the institution of which we are all Members, and the challenge was that this House of Commons has ceased to perform any useful function on behalf of the working-classes of this country. I would like to ask, quite sincerely, and with every good intention, this question of the Minister: What am I to say to these people when I go down to them next and tell them that he, on behalf of the Government, was not able to promise to provide 2d. a day to preserve the lives of the children of the future. A very touching picture was given by the last speaker of a scene he witnessed this morning. A boy was being led by his parent, and they saluted the Colours. The parent, no doubt, was told not many years ago that he belonged to the State body and soul. That child will probably be told it a few years from now, and will be offered his shilling a day; yet the Government now is not able to give him 2d. a day to enable him to retain life until that time comes. I suggest that there has been no problem before this House of greater and more vital interest to it than this. I agree entirely with the last speaker that it is a question of citizenship. After all, we are discussing now not so much the England of to-day as the England of to-morrow. If these children are to be starved and underfed, the England of to-morrow is going to be a very sad place indeed. I, therefore, with the greatest possible pleasure, support the Amendment.
My name is on this Amendment, for the simple and very obvious reason that to offer anybody 1s. in these times is very nearly ridiculous. Of course, it is said that it is better than nothing; but so is 6d. and so is 3d. If you are going to do the thing at all, I really think that the figure proposed in this Amendment is a very moderate figure, taking into consideration that this is a purely temporary Bill, and I do not see the difficulty, which the Minister suggests, that the contributions might be exacted for another 15 weeks after the Bill is put a stop to. That would only be doing what every working man has to do after he has had a period of unemployment. He has to pay back the credit which his co-operative society has given, and it very often takes him a great deal longer than that to do it. [An HON. MEMBER: "And they always do it!"] Yes, I have known cases of payment extending over many, many months. We have been given a non possumus . We have been showing that the thing can be done which the Minister says is impossible, but which appears to me to be eminently practicable. I was very much surprised to hear the suggestion that he is willing to extend the age from 14 to 15. After all, that is a shibboleth. Some people seem to think that a schoolmaster can do anything. He cannot. Most of the eminent men in this country began life before 14, and bodily nourishment is much more important than what you get out of books, which, after all, you forget at the earliest opportunity. I think it is far better that this grant of 2s. should at least be given to children up to five years before they go to school. That is the fundamental period of a child's life, when the foundations are being laid of its constitution. Even the 2s. would not do very much.
When I say I am supporting this because it is a temporary Measure, I entirely disagree with the views enunciated as to the State being in a sense the father of the child, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) suggested, because, if carried to its logical conclusion, the State will' have to take possession of the child as in Bolshevik Russia, and exclude the parent from any share in its upbringing, and so fulfil Mr. Bernard Shaw's ideal that parents set their offspring so bad an example that they should not be allowed to have anything to do with them. I believe that parents are responsible for their own children and for bringing them up, and in a time of stress, such as during war, it is our duty to come to the assistance of all distress. Beyond that, I entirely repudiate the view of the right hon. Member for Peebles. I want to see assistance given to the married man in time of unemployment. The married man does not get a chance to save in time of employment to make provision for his children. In a rational state of society the married man would insist on working longer hours, but the single man will not allow him to do so, because we do not live in a rational state of society, but one in which the married man has not got his liberty, because the junior members of the working classes will not allow him his liberty. As I say, in a normal, rational state, in a primitive or agricultural state, the man who has his offspring to bring up does a double shift. Here, however, he is deprived of the opportunity of building up something for a rainy day. As my hon. Friend opposite has remarked, this Parliament does not serve the working classes well. It does not do so, because it accepts too much legislation from the party of which he is a member, because we have taken so much liberty from the working classes at the dictates of the trade unions, who are not representative of them. The logical outcome is, that we are forced to make a contribution to them to the extent to which they are victimised by labour legislation.
I am sure every Member of the House ought to have no hesitation in walking into the Lobby in support of this Amendment. My hon. and learned Friend opposite said that he is supporting it in order to save the working classes from the sins of my colleagues. We are not concerned in the least what object may influence the hon. and learned Gentleman or his friends, but we are concerned in asking the House this definite question: Can they conceive of a board of guardians to-day who would vote a 1s. a week for a child? Do they know of any board of guardians in their constituency who would consider a 1s. as sufficient to support a child? They know perfectly well that there is no board of guardians who would attempt to do it. Can this House, then, put itself in a worse position than a board of guardians at this moment? It has been said that the working classes themselves would object. Do let us visualise the situation. I have read in this morning's Press—not the Labour Press, but the Press supported by the Government—of a case where the unemployed were put to work yesterday at Portsmouth, and the chairman of the distress committee stopped the work because of the feeble condition of the men, due to underfeeding, and he said that they must not proceed until some food was provided for them. I ask the House to visualise the position of these men's homes, and to ask themselves, if that is the physical condition of the fathers, what can be the condition of the children? The question is not whether the working-man will accept his liability. The working-man, as the hon. and learned Gentleman has just pointed out, levies, and has levied, himself often. I am told of miners who are contributing to-day, out of their small wages, 3s. a week to pay the debts they incurred during the dispute only a few weeks ago. They love their children as well as anybody else, and they will make contributions and sacrifices for them. It is not a financial liability. The Government know perfectly well that this is a temporary Measure, and if we can anticipate that there will be an improvement in the unemployed figures, the longer the Bill continues the more advantage will it be to the State, because if there be an improvement in the unemployed market, then, obviously, the State will get the benefit of the contributions. We hope hon. Gentlemen who talk so much about sympathy with the working classes will show it in a practical way by voting for this Amendment.
8.0 P.M.
I find myself in a difficult position on this Amendment. I agree entirely with the mover and seconder, and with every hon. Gentleman who has spoken on both sides of the House. When the right hon. Gentleman came to draft this Bill, and found, on looking into the financial Clauses, that he would have to put down a shilling as the maximum provision for a child, he ought immediately to have seen that his scheme was unworkable. But if we vote now for this Amendment, we are not making the thing adequate. It still remains pitifully inadequate, and it seems to me we shall be simply throwing dust in our own eyes. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. M. Jones) in his speech, I thought, showed quite clearly what was the fallacy at the root, not only of this Amendment, but of the whole Bill. He spoke of the impossible position of local authorities in regard to the provision of meals in schools. It is quite true, and the same thing is true of the whole Poor Law system. The mover of this Amendment made the statement which is often made—I think, perhaps, the Minister of Labour a little misunderstood it—that if the Unemployment Insurance Act had been passed in 1919, the position of the fund would be such that at the present time we should be able to get through the crisis with that fund. I grant that is possible, but I believe the fact of the matter is we could never hope to carry through a period of extreme industrial depression, such as we are now passing through, on an insurance fund at all. We will have to go to the Poor Law, whether we like it or not. We have to rely on it to-day. I do not suppose there is a single family which will be in receipt of benefit under this Bill that will not have to go to the Poor Law guardians as well. It would be the case if this Amendment be passed. I agree that the local authorities are in such a position that they can no longer bear this burden, but the solution is not by the provision of further benefit under this Act out of the pockets of the State. The only cure is—and we are throwing dust in our own eyes if we do not realise it—in the fundamental reconsideration of the whole of the grant-in-aid system under the Poor Law. I agree as to the inadequacy of the provision made under this Bill. I cannot see how it can be remedied under this Bill or how we are going to do anything unless we insist on going back to the question of the Poor Law and the revision of the whole system of granting relief.
I think it is necessary that one should go back somewhat to arrive at a true perspective of the present situation—but not go back too far. We must remember that for the past two months there has been hundreds of thousands of workmen who have exhausted their benefit and who have had no income. They commenced with £l per week, which later was reduced to 15s., and for about two months they have nothing at all. I can only assume that it was because the Minister felt that with the possibilities of the winter before us some special temporary provision must be made to meet the families and dependents that he acted. We are at this stage now that all the resources in the average working-class home have become exhausted, and whilst it may be very nice to say that £25,000,000 is to be promised in one direction of helping trade, that is not a gift or a loss; it is looked upon merely as an advance of millions which will ultimately come back to the Exchequer.
To say that the total provision now being made must be taken in connection with the many other avenues open for relief is quite the wrong point of view to put. One shilling per week means 1¾d. per day, and 2s. means 3½d. It has been said that there is the provision of meals for necessitous children under the Education Act. That provision is for breakfast and lunch for five days, leaving out the tea meal, the whole of Saturday and of Sunday, which have to be met even in the cases where they take full advantage of this provision. A 1¾d. per day will not provide milk in any quantity at all for the young children of the house. You will, perhaps, say they can go to some mothers' welcome or child welfare centre, or that the distressed mother can apply to the board of guardians for relief. But why should the anxieties and worries of the parents be added to by saying, "You must go to this or the other channel for charity," or to say that the child is fed at school, when, it may be, that the inspector will call at the home and endeavour to arrange that payment later shall be made for the meals provided now?
If this were a permanent Measure, permanently to establish some supplementary payment in the case of families or dependents, I could understand the objections that have been made, but it is a purely temporary measure to help through the winter. We are commencing the winter with children whose physique is already weakened, and who are in no sort of condition to meet any illness that may come along, especially as the weather becomes colder. Yet you say 1¾d. a day will help to retain the vitality that will enable them to throw off any illness or sickness. There are very few of us in this House who will not be sitting down to one meal here which will cost more than double the original provision of 4s. for the four children as a supplementary allowance to keep them going for 7 days in the week! I have sometimes wondered whether Members whilst they are enjoying their meal ever picture the possibilities after they have gone through the division lobby and defeated the extra money which it is now proposed to give, so as to help each child to get three meals, and in addition, clothing and boots and the various things necessary if each child is to retain full physical development which in turn must of course act on the mind!
I feel that there is a great human element that must enter into a subject of this kind. We legislators often talk in terms of millions. We are told that this would mean £1,600,000 more from the Exchequer. You have no right to extend the period. I submit that the State should find the money. You ought not to prolong the matter for a further 14 weeks after the temporary period, for such would be to levy upon the very distressed people whom you are making this provision to help, and who if they work for the first two hours they are employed find there is the full charge on their national health contribution, their unemployment contribution, plus this 2d. compulsory levy. You are levying the people who find it most difficult to make ends meet at the present time. This House must also keep in mind, when we talk of the impossibility of making this provision, and the poverty of the national Exchequer, and take a little more deeply to heart the lessons which the starving people outside are constantly having paraded before them.
From my own town I know, and from the Press I learn, of some notorious lady who boasted that she had spent a million of money on self-adornment. These vulgar displays and parades of spending on the part of those who became suddenly wealthy during the War by piling up ill-gotten gains, whilst others were making sacrifices, are not in keeping with the spirit of the times, for they suggest that after the War some are expected to continue to make sacrifices and so impose further hardship upon their offspring. Whilst you have the displays to which I have referred, you cannot expect much from these other people who are too poor to make the provision that will enable them adequately to provide for the child-life they have under their care. It is our duty first as citizens, and then as Parliament, to attend to these matters. Quite a number of families, you must remember, consist of seven or eight children under 14 years of age. I have had some cases drawn to my attention—not of my own family—in my own case I should be very sorry to be an unemployed persjan—and to say that in these cases 1¾d. per child per day is sufficient is wrong. I do not think I should meekly submit to a condition of things like that. I do not think we have a right to expect these people meekly to submit to a state of affairs that brings before them every day their dire poverty and the suffering of those whom they hold near and dear in the home
There is plenty of sympathy expressed in this House, and I am not surprised to know that up to the moment there has not been an hon. Member get up and oppose the Amendment. That is very significant. I think the Minister of Labour and the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to take notice of the fact that they have not yet found anybody to get up and champion safeguarding the Exchequer at the expense of the little children of the country. I hope that that is a reflex of the definite opinion and determination of Members of this House. I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Labour Minister will have no further company than themselves in the Division Lobby if this matter goes to a Division. I am only sorry to have to admit that we have witnessed such scenes before. We have had Debates in this House, and Members in a long string have been against the Government, but when it came to voting the Whips stood in the Division Lobby and told them whether they were "ayes" or "noes," and told others, too, who had not heard the Debate that it did not matter what it was about, they were "aye" or "no" as the case might be. It is a shame that there are Members who, not having heard the Debate, vote on it. There are Members in this Debate who have expressed the desire for some greater concession being made to the children, and I should have very keen regret if I saw any of them going into the Lobby to support the Government. Let the Government be told pretty plainly now, seeing that whenever they want to raise money for other things they can find ways and means, that when it comes to a matter of feeding the children, though it may be a matter of £1,600,000 extra contribution from the Exchequer, something ought to be done. Is there a mathematician sufficiently up-to-date to tell us what that £1,600,000 would represent on the incomes of last year of, say, over £10,000 per annum? It would not, I fancy, represent anything like the smallest coin that we have at our disposal. There are people, I say again, who will perhaps spend more to-night under some circumstances—on a cigar, perhaps, that will end in smoke—and yet thought not be given to the children. We know instances where some little pedigree puppy dog will have any amount spent on its maintenance. It will have its valet, its specialised food, and its nurse, and will be tucked up cosily in bed at night, and have more attention paid to it than hundreds of little kiddies, attention to whom would be more worth while, seeing that they contain in them the prospect of future development for the good of the nation.
As the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down said, practically the only person who has hitherto spoken against the Amendment, although many have spoken, is the Minister of Labour. I am sure he has not done it with a light heart. The case he made against the Amendment was not a case based on economy. There is not, I think, any issue of economy raised with regard to the provision of 1s. more for each child. I do not think there is any issue of economy raised by any Member of this House. There is no question that cases of absolute destitution must be met by some authority and out of public funds. If the State does not meet this destitution it will have to be met out of the local rates, and that is the only issue, because no one raises the issue of economy. The only issue is whether this burden must be met by the State or by the local rates. A certain provision is made in the Bill for unemployment, but it does not apply to all unemployed persons and only to a certain section which happens to come under the machinery of the Unemployment Insurance Act.
The whole burden of the rest of the unemployed is thrown on the local rates. Is it not reasonable to ask that in regard to that section of the unemployed for which the State is taking responsibility under this Bill, it should take the whole responsibility and endeavour to make what it considers to be a just and adequate allowance. In addition to throwing the other portion on the rates, it should not also throw this portion on the local authorities. The machinery is wasteful and overlapping. You are bringing the people under two authorities and providing for grants. Why do we object so much to the abnormal proportions in which this burden is being thrown upon the rates?
We maintain that it is unfair, inexpedient, and uneconomic for two reasons. In the first place the burden of the rates is hot distributed on the ratepayers in proportion to their capacity to pay. Imperial taxation is, roughly speaking, distributed in proportion to the capacity to pay, but the burden of local rates is not distributed in that way. If we place an intolerable burden upon the local rates, we may reach the breaking point. There is another reason equally valid, but quite different, and it is that the burden of unemployment is not distributed equally in proportion over the whole country, but is concentrated in certain districts. It is entirely due to national causes for which the nation as a whole is responsible, but the actual existing unemployment is concentrated in special districts, and the whole of the burden is concentrated there. If we place this burden upon the rates an intolerable burden is placed upon those particular sections of the community. It is for these reasons that the Imperial authority should accept a larger share of the burden than it is now accepting.
It is admitted that these cases in which there are children are the most necessitous cases, in which there is the greatest need for the State accepting that share of the burden. It has been suggested by my right hon. Friend that in the case of children there is provision being made now through the education authority for the feeding of children and that is true. That of course, goes a certain length, but you still have the burden thrown on the rates. If the right hon. Gentleman will not consent to the full extent of this Amendment, will he meet us and make some concession? There are many children who get no school feeding, who are under school age, up to the age of 5. I know the right hon. Gentleman has mentioned the mitigating circumstances, but can he not meet us with regard to these children? If he has absolutely turned a deaf ear to our appeal on the main question, which is not based on economy, will he not meet us by making it apply to children up to the age of 5 years.
At this particular stage it is a pity that the Minister of Labour should have left the House, and left the Debate in charge of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The only issue that has to be faced here is as to whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to take the burden upon his shoulders of meeting the demands or whether that burden will fall upon the shoulders of the ratepayers through the boards of guardians. That point has been very well put by the hon. Member who has just sat down. The Chancellor of the Exchequer might very well say, "Why should I take on this burden." He has an extremely difficult job in which I am sure he has the sympathy and support of the House. The nation's finances are in a very critical condition indeed, and he is faced with a task which no previous Chancellor of the Exchequer has had to face for a considerable number of years. I can imagine the right hon. Gentleman saying, "Why should I take on this burden at this particular time?" It is admitted that, after all, this money has got to be found and will be found, and if the necessary amount required for the support of these families is not forthcoming from State funds, it will come out of the rates, and the children will not suffer. I think there are one or two reasons why the Chancellor of the Exchequer should find the money in addition to those very potent and powerful reasons put forward by the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken. One reason is that by doing it he would only be carrying out the whole policy that lies at the back of unemployment insurance.
Why was that form of insurance introduced? It had come to be recognised that working people were exposed to periods of unemployment which, if they were not assisted to tide over that period, would land them into a state of destitution, and that is not a good thing. It is not good to allow people to get into such a condition that they have to come to the guardians for relief, because there is nothing that brings down the mental stamina and the psychological condition of the working classes of this country more than having to apply for Poor Law relief. I was talking to a relieving officer connected with one of the great unions of the north of England, and he told me he was passing through some of the most painful experiences that he had ever known, and he said that a great many people were now coming up for relief who in the past would never have dreamed of doing such a thing. He stated that going into houses to investigate the prevailing conditions had brought him into contact with such painful experiences as he had never seen before. The object of State Insurance was to prevent that kind of thing.
We have got the position to-day that the ordinary unemployment insurance is quite inadequate after a period of such prolonged unemployment and such distress, and, unless the ordinary benefits are supplemented, we shall have a state of things which has been depicted; we shall have people taking their unemployment benefit and then supplementing it by obtaining relief from the guardians. If the Government had acted in the real spirit in unemployment insurance they would have admitted that they were bound to supplement the ordinary benefit. They would have said, "We have taken the course of giving a man something for his wife and children, and the proper thing to do in the emergency is to give him enough to tide him over the period during which he is getting the benefit." This Bill only applies to men as long as they are receiving the benefit. When that drops out they must go to the guardians. It seems an extraordinary position for the Government to take up to say, "We will make a certain amount of provision, but it shall not be adequate and we will leave the people for whom we are providing it to go to the guardians to get what they need." If the Government were considering a permanent measure something might be said for such a suggestion, but this is a temporary measure to carry people through an emergency. I suggest that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be doing a sound thing if, during the period that people are getting the unemployment benefit, he saves them completely from the necessity of going to the guardians for assistance. That is what the Government ought to do in this Bill. If they cannot do it let them remodel the Bill.
During the last two weeks we have been having a great debate on this unemployment question, one of the most useful and profitable the House has ever had. Everybody has come here to learn something, including the Government, and I suggest it is not too late for them to really look at this question from a broader point of view, from the point of view of taking on the State the whole burden of the support of the people while they are in receipt of unemployment benefit, instead of placing half the burden on the State and half on the guardians. If you are going to save the people, save them wholly. That is the real position, and I submit to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the interests of the nation will be best promoted by allowing the full charge to fall on the State only. The guardians in many districts are almost bankrupt, and the concession we ask for would be, not only a relief to the people concerned, but to the guardians also.
I rise to support this Amendment because I want to make a further appeal to my right hon. Friend to give way to the speeches from every section of the House in favour of this concession. I have watched the faces of both the Minister of Labour and of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and seen the painful expression which they have worn. It is obvious to anyone that they would like to give way but feel that they cannot. I ask them, after all the speeches which have been delivered, to give way on this particular point. Let them remove this intolerable responsibility from their own shoulders to the House, and throw the division open to a vote of the whole House. The House will know perfectly well what it is doing, and I feel my right hon. Friends under the peculiar circumstances might very well take this course. The supporters of the Government have been put into a quite impossible position by the Government proposal. If there had been no proposal at all in regard to the children it might have been defended, but I cannot see how any supporter of the Government is going to defend a maintenance grant of 1s. per week per child. I hope the speeches will impress upon my right hon. Friends that the feeling of the House is strongly in support of a concession on the lines of this Amendment.
I have nothing fresh to say on this question, but I wish to follow the continuous line of Members of all parties who have appealed to the Government to depart from their firm resolve to stop at the shilling. Not a single voice has been raised in favour of the Government's proposal, and, as far as we can see, it is admitted all round that while 2s. a week for every child is a very small amount, 1s. is something which cannot be referred to in the country in any way to the credit of the House. One is told that the Government cannot raise the amount to 2s. A good deal has been said about a sum of £1,700,000 which the concession would cost. I agree with the hon. Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Inskip) that that is not a very big sum, and that the Government ought to find it. I appeal to them to find it. I have never known a Bill in regard to which the Minister in charge has not had something to give away, and an hon. Member who spoke just now declared that he was quite sure that the Minister of Labour had something up his sleeve on this occasion. I do not doubt it, but I wish he would bring it down and show us what it is. If it is merely raising the age limit from 14 to 15, I say "Thank you for nothing." Surely the Government ought to give way to the sentiment of the House all round and to the demands of humanity. This is not a matter which need be argued at length. Nobody would think that during the Debate on the Second Reading of this Bill the right hon. Gentleman won a great victory over the party opposite, which demanded that the whole cost of the Measure should be thrown on the State. In my opinion, that was a most improper demand, and the Minister of Labour was well advised in resisting it and in holding by the contributory principle. But having won that great victory for the future development of unemployment insurance in this country, I think he might now give way to the unanimous opinion of those who have spoken by raising this sum from 1s. to 2s
It is probably time that I should intervene in this Debate, since so many Members of the House have referred to the attitude of the Treasury in connection with this Bill. I am very sure that it is much easier to make a speech in favour of this Amendment than against it. All our sentiments would support this Amendment, and probably would go much further than it goes. I could make a speech as eloquent as any that has been delivered in favour of the Amendment. One thing that has come clearly to my mind is a remark by Bagehot, the constitutional historian, who said that, if you want to gain the cheers of the House of Commons; the thing to do is to make a general speech in favour of economy, and if you want to make yourself hopelessly unpopular with the House of Commons, the thing to do is to propose some practical measure which will place a restriction upon expenditure. I am rendered very conscious of the truth of that remark when even my right hon. Friend opposite, who has declaimed more times than any other Member of the House in favour of restricting expenditure, has deserted me and left me, like Athanasius, contra mundum . There was a reference made, of course by a Scotsman, to the case of the importunate widow. The difference between that case and the present is that the person appealed to is, I hope, a just judge, or at least a judge who takes a just view of all the circumstances.
What are the circumstances in the present case? You are providing a scheme whereby certain sums of money are collected in certain proportions from the employer, the workman and the State. The State pays more than either of the others. There is only the amount collected available for distribution. The hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday) gave a complete reply on that matter. Just imagine the practical difficulties of collecting contributions for 15 weeks after benefits have ceased—and from whom? Not from the people who have been getting the benefits, not from people, even, who are obtaining any benefit, but from people who are obtaining no benefit themselves at all, but who have all along been paying because of the fact that they have been lucky enough to be in employment while others have not. They are not the beneficiaries under the scheme, and yet you are asking these people to extend their contributions for 15 weeks longer than any of their friends who are destitute are receiving any benefit at all. As the hon. Member for West Nottingham remarked, that is a proposition which is not likely to receive anybody's support. Accordingly, what do you come back to?
That may be the very means of enabling those who have benefited to pay.
Would the Government undertake to give the 2s. if we get round the objection of our own Members with regard to the extension of time?
There is no real use in putting that proposition at this point of time, when we are discussing the Report stage of the Bill. Anyone who really considers the practicability of the matter will realise the force of the argument of the hon. Member for West Nottingham, and I fully en dorse it from my own experience. The real proposition of this Amendment is that the Government should find all the extra money which would be required to effect this purpose. People say, "Why, what is £1,700,000?" But you can say that about anything that comes before the House of Commons. Just a little more, and how little it is; just a little more, and how much it is when you add all the littles together. I am certain that those who advocate economy will not use that argument in asking me to make this extra grant.
At the risk of wearying the House, I would like to come back to the consideration of the fact that this is only one of a number of schemes which is involving Government expenditure. It is part of an expenditure of at least £12,000,000, given out from now onwards, and apart altogether from the subventions to local authorities, which will be considerable; from the export credits scheme, and from the guarantee of £25,000,000 for the purpose of affording facilities for the starting of large capital undertakings. This £12,000,000 is entirely apart from these schemes. My hon. Friend below the Gangway asked, What had the Minister of Labour up his sleeve? He has disgorged all that was up his sleeve, if ever there was anything there, and in point of fact he had to put his hand into my pocket before he had anything up his sleeve. But what he has brought down already has been a sum just approaching £500,000. We are going to have next year a very depleted revenue, and I am certain that, if I cannot balance the Budget, none of the hon. Gentlemen who have spoken this afternoon will come and forgive me on the ground of any expenditure of this kind to which I have consented. That is perfectly certain. It is said that this is only one thing, but the House always will take up and support something which touches its sentiment in the way that this does. We had a similar case, even in this economical House of Commons, with regard to old age pensions, when the House was prepared to accede to Votes which would amount to something like £14,000,000. These things do touch our hearts, and we do feel inclined to vote for them. I am not at all surprised that all the speaking in this case has been on one side. I should have been speaking that way also if I were not so well aware of the enormous financial difficulties in face of which the country stands to-day, and of the appalling problem—it is nothing less—which awaits us when we come to consider the Budget next year. Where is the money to come from? There is no surplus out of which to pay anything. Are you going to put on more grievous taxation? One of the most pregnant causes of unemployment to-day is the burden of taxation under which the country is already labouring. It is taxation that has abstracted from the pocket of industry the power to re-invest and afford further employment. I hope the House is not going to suggest that I should propose some further burden of taxation.
If not that, what is going to be done? It means that we have to borrow; and what is the result of borrowing? Our borrowings already are very heavy. We have a floating debt of something like £1,400,000,000 at the present time, and are committed to a good deal of borrowing under these unemployment schemes—as much as we can see our way to meet without injury to the country. If there is to be any appreciable increase in your borrowing, the immediate result is going to be a declension in the value of your currency, and an increase in the cost of all articles you have to buy from outside; while, seeing that you inhabit an island and import four-fifths of all that you consume, and nearly as much of the raw materials that you use, anything which makes it more costly for you to buy outside these islands is going to increase enormously your cost of production. Is unemployment going to be helped by anything that has that result? One of the difficulties you are meeting to-day is that the articles you have to sell are too expensive for your purchasers to buy. Are you going to better employment by increasing the cost of those articles? I would beg the House to look at these things not in a narrow perspective and not with regard to the immediate question that is before us, however much it touches our sentiments and our hearts. I would gladly vote for the Amendment if I were not so-oppressed by the consequences of exaggerated expenditure, and the appeal which is made with regard to this could be made with regard to a dozen other things in the same way to-day. I, accordingly, appeal to the House not simply to be carried away by what would obviously touch us all, but, having regard to the larger issues, to support the Government in rejecting this Amendment.
The right hon. Gentleman, in the powerful plea that he has made, has based his case entirely on economy, and I entirely agree that there is nothing more necessary than economy at present. But there are one or two considerations which I think he should bear in mind. In the first place, there is a great deal of force in what was said by an hon. Member opposite that you have to provide for these children. It must be done. It is a first duty on the State. You cannot avoid it even if you wished. If you do not provide out of the taxes you provide out of the rates. The expenditure will fall on the taxable capacity of the country whatever you do, and must do so, and therefore it is not merely a question of economy being possible in this matter. The other consideration is this. I do not think you will ever succeed in economy on the present plan of the Government. I admit this is a matter we cannot go into at length here, but as long as you merely insist in meeting claims for expenditure on their merits and nothing else you will never succeed in economical management of the finances of the country. There is only one plan. Fix the amount you can spend and then allot that amount amongst the most urgent cases. That seems to me necessary from the point of view of economy. I do not pretend that I can say anything very new on this matter, and I quite admit that, important as it is, the Debate has lasted a very long time; but I wish to state the real reason why I think this demand should be granted. I am not in the least moved by the Government's observation that this is only one of a number of schemes. That has really nothing to do with this case at all. The question here is, is this a case which has to be met? It is not necessary to say, You are giving a lot of money which will not meet this particular case, or: You are doing a lot of other things which will not meet this particular case.
The other things do.
Ultimately they may. But take your credit loan.
Take the relief works.
This is to meet an immediate emergency.
There are £6,000,000 for immediate relief work. There is another £3,000,000 to help boards of guardians, and so on.
That is true, but here you bring a Bill before Parliament, and this seems to me the real case that the Government has to meet. In that Bill you recognise that you have to make a contribution for the children of the unemployed. Is it reasonable to fix that sum at a shilling a child per week? That is the case the Government have to meet. They recognise the duty of dealing with this particular claim for relief and then they propose a sum which really cannot be defended. That seems to me the fatal blot in the Government's argument. Either they ought to have said, "We will not deal with it at all," or they ought to deal with it adequately and properly. It is impossible to go to the House of Commons and the country and say, "On the demand for raising the sum from a shilling to 2s. a week per child we declined to give 2s., and we insisted on giving 1s." I am sure that is a position which no Government can afford to take and which no plea of economy can really avail them to defend.
I am anxious to support the Amendment. I listened with great care to the technical statements made by the Minister of Labour and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have been wondering what sort of speech the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have made during the period of the War when we lacked men, munitions, and the material support of the country. I cannot imagine that there would have been any economy discussed at all. I can appreciate the difficulties of the Government. All of us must do that. This Government is head over ears in debt, and posterity will take its share of the burden. But if you want posterity to take its share, you must give posterity a chance, and a seven-farthing-a-day posterity will not be a very virile, energetic posterity to meet the debts the War has imposed upon it. I can imagine the Chancellor of the Exchequer forgetting he is a Scotsman, forgetting that he is Chancellor of the Exchequer, and for- getting the number of bills against the Government. Or take him in measuring the value of the floating debt or the indebtedness like a millstone round the nation's neck. I do not want us to lose sight of the immensity of that great debt, but, however far you may enlarge on it, at the same time you will impose upon posterity such a debt of ill-health that, if you were to discuss it from an economic point of view, you cannot put into figures the loss to the nation in stamina, health, and integrity. The figures we are thinking of are the figures you see advertised in the newspapers of "Save the Children!" I do not want to make a heroic or historical statement or appeal. I want to put the brutally bare facts of the tragedy in front of us. I am sure if we had a Labour Cabinet it would have difficulties equal to those of the present Government, but, just as they would have that definite number of difficulties, I feel positive that the outlook would be different. Just as the patriotic fervour of this House said, "At whatever expense this country must be saved in fighting the Germans, whatever the sacrifice, whatever the risk, we must not leave to posterity a country despoiled by an all too powerful enemy," so to-day we say we must not sacrifice the children. The Labour party would have adopted the same attitude that you adopted with regard to the millions of men in the trenches. With regard to the present crisis, I will not say that we have more heart than you, but our outlook is entirely different, and we have a better sense of the value and sacredness of posterity. In dealing with millions of children, the Labour party would give some sort of figure as to what would be the cost in the spoliation of the children, in the agony of the mother if the nation neglected to deal with the problem adequately.
The Government are penny wise and pound foolish. I admit all their difficulties, but if they would go through the country, despite the "Anti-Wasters," who are often the biggest wasters of all, and put the position to the hearts and brains of the people of the country, they would get a generous response. The difficulties which confront the Government are great, as they were bound to be, following upon so terrible a war. We must Tiave regard, not only to the present generation, but to posterity. We must protect our children. The situation is terrible. We have 50 per cent. of our dockers who have not a chance of a square meal, and that, after giving of their best. God knows, we can never count the tragedy and the horror and the sacrifice of the mothers, who, instead of nourishing their bodies when they might well have nourished them, gave that material sacrifice that is crucifixion. They gave their strength and vitality, and they are giving it to-day, and such things unfit them for peopling the world with healthy progeny.
9.0 P.M.
I ask the Government to take off the Whips. The menace of starving children will appeal to the imagination and to the minds of all. Many of our dockers will suffer starvation for themselves. Working men will suffer starvation for themselves. Fathers will suffer starvation for themselves, but do not test them too long. They will not stand to see their children literally dying for want of the ordinary necessaries of life. Let us get back to the old enthusiasm. If it was a case of war to-night, instead of the Benches being empty, we should find every man who has a vested interest calling on the labour Members to join in national organisation against the dangers coming upon us. We have a greater danger that is coming upon us to-day. "Suffer the little children to come unto Me," must be literally translated in this House. There is no man who is a father who can fail to be touched by the appeal for the children. What can be done with seven farthings a day? "I owe you five farthings," is a nursery rhyme. It is seven farthings in this case. What will that buy? What will that do towards providing light, heat, clothes, or food? What on earth can you do with seven farthings? I ask that we shall not make ourselves ridiculous in the sight of other nations, and that we shall not make ourselves ridiculous in the sight of our own people. I want this House looked up to for its honourable traditions. The great human note that has been touched in this Debate has helped me tremendously. There is great human sympathy in this House. Let that human sympathy have fair and full expression and, with the ex-, ception of a few "die-hards" of finance, the House will demonstrate its character in a way that will show to the world that we sympathise with the children and their parents. I do hope that all this rigmarole, all this mathematical dealing, will be put aside, and that the Government will not proceed with their penny-wise-and-pound-foolish policy. If the amount be increased to 2s. per week or 3½d. per day, what will that do? It would not find dogs-meat for the pups of the well-to-do. I do not make an appeal, but a demand to the Government, that they shall reconsider the position, and at least justify themselves in the eyes of the people.
It is rather significant that in this Debate the only two speeches that have been delivered against the Amendment have come from members of the Government. On every side of the House this Amendment has received support. Last week when the scene took place, it received equal support. In the intervening week the Government has considered its position, and it comes forward with what the Minister of Labour says are some concessions. The Government are going to move an Amendment to raise the grant of 1s. per child in respect of children who up to the age of 15 years are in daily attendance at school. The Minister of Labour gave his explanation for making that concession, and said that it will not cost very much.
Quite right.
Is it a concession if it is costing you little or nothing? You are giving nothing. The right hon. Gentleman did not give us the exact figures of what it would cost, but he has been giving as the figures of any increase that we have proposed. He also proposes to give us a further concession by deleting that part of the Bill which places a limit upon the amount of money that is to be granted to any family to the extent of 9s. He is prepared to withdraw that from the Bill. That is another concession, but he gave some figures regarding that. He said that this Bill involves 700,000 wives and 1,400,000 children; in other words, an average of two children to each wife. If he is exceeding the limit it cannot be very much that he is giving in extension, for when the average is only two to every woman that would only make 7s. as the average basis per family for wife and two children. It plainly shows that, taking it in the lump, that concession does not amount to very much. What concessions are to be given us, then, that he should invite the House, which has been expressing itself so unanimously regarding this Amendment, to agree with him with regard to it? I read in the Press only last week the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this House said that we cannot get money. This £1,500,000 cannot be obtained because the country is in an appalling state so far as it finances are concerned. I read in the Press only last Friday of a dinner in London in the Con-naught Rooms at which the guests were served with a dinner which cost 30s. a head. This is different from 1s. a week. It was a builders' dinner, an engineering dinner, and not a labour dinner, and it cost 30s. per head including wines.
Did the hon. Member also read in the Press that the unemployed had struck because they were offered 11½d. per hour and the trade union rate was 1s. 3d. per hour?
Yes, and I am sure if the right hon. Member were asked to work for those rates, he would drop dead at the very insult of asking him to work for such a wage. The right hon. Member stands out for the trade union rate in his own particular profession, and he should be the last man to come to this House and expect any other individual to take less than the trade union rate.
I voted against the £400 a year which is paid to Members of this House, which is the only fee I get.
Your banking account is all right.
I got it by hard work.
Did you get palpitation?
Remarks of that character are quite wide of the subject under debate.
I have no personal complaint against the right hon. Gentleman. If he wants to go into the Lobby against this Bill I will sit down immediately, but we have been seeking for the last week to get some concession from the Government. We have been told about those other Measures, and that the efforts of the Government are not confined to this Bill, that other Measures are being devised to help the unemployed. One is relief to local authorities. How much relief is going to be given? Is not that relief only a case of taking out of the left-hand pocket and putting into the right-hand pocket? Look at the rates to-day. In Aberdare, in Scotland, the poor rates are 10s. 11½d. Can you increase them? In Abertillery they are 12s. In East Ham, which is in London, they are Vs. 11½d., in Erith 8s. 6½d., in Leyton 8s., in Mountain Ash 9s. 6½d., and so on. Can you increase the rates in those districts which are, in the main, working-class districts where the burden of unemployment falls most heavily upon the ratepayers? Members on these benches demand that as this is a national problem it should be dealt with by a national body.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer when replying to an interruption about extending the period of payment said it was no good to place upon the shoulders of the men who had not received any benefit the payment of this unemployment benefit. But are not the men who will be in employment during the unemployment period the very men who will be paying for those who are unemployed in any case? Is not that logical? I was amazed when one of my Scottish colleagues used such an illogical argument as that the men who are employed will have to pay those particular extended payments. It is the very same number of individuals, the employed people from whom the levies will be taken. The whole matter is simply, shall I say, callousness on the part of the Government or ignorance of the conditions of the country. Do they know the conditions of the country and that this House is being brought into discredit everywhere, because of the ineffectiveness of the measures that are passed here? Does any Member on the Government Bench or any Member of this House, including the Member who told me that I had been spreading poisonous doctrines throughout the country, believe that any man with influence among the unemployed going out among them and telling them of the attitude adopted by the Government towards this particular Amendment could not arouse London, North, West, East and South, or that it would not be the easiest matter in the world to have the house of every Cabinet Minister resident in London stormed and wrecked.
What about all this striking?
We are talking about unemployment.
Which is brought about by strikes.
Of course, if some hon. Members come up here after dinner and interrupt us when we are trying to get suppers for the starving children of the country, that is something which is new to this House. We demand from the Government—the time for appeal has gone past—that they should consider this question from the point of view of a national question. An hon. Member who spoke from below the Gangway said that if there were in the air the rumours of a war, if there were any idea that this country would be subjected to a foreign menace, there would be no difficulty in finding, not £1,600,000, but £1,600,000,000 to provide the necessary arms and munitions of war to oppose the enemy. Is there a greater enemy to this country than the enemy of poverty and starvation? Has not the Prime Minister denounced it again and again? Has not he denounced a C3 nation, and with your 1s. a week for children you are going to build up again a C3 nation, which the Prime Minister was denouncing all through the War. I demand, on the part of the children of the country, leaving out the parents entirely, that the Government should give the necessary facilities for 2s. a week being paid for each child.
I listened with very close attention to the two speeches made from the Treasury Bench. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour did not pretend in a single sentence or word that this grant or 1s. per child was sufficient to sustain the child. I have known him for many years and have known his deep interest in the welfare of the worker's child, and I ask myself what language he would have used had he been sitting, as I knew him to do at one time, in the Opposition, and the Government had offered him 1s. per week for the relief of starving children. I can assure the House that no language used this afternoon could in any way have equalled the language of my right hon. Friend; in fact, I doubt whether anyone but himself could explain to the House the kind of language he would have used in those circumstances. I can imagine not merely the words but the gesture with which he would have thrust aside the arguments which to-day have been adduced by himself, supported by his friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Whatever the right hon. Gentleman's attitude on this Amendment, he is not speaking from his heart when he declines the appeal made to him. Stern necessity may have driven him to take up that attitude, and I regret it.
I listened to the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with much interest, and I listened to it with consternation. I have seen no more startling evidence in this House of the Treasury's opinion of the financial condition of this country. We are now so poor that for a period of six months we cannot find more than 1s. per week for starving children. I cannot believe it. I agree that it is necessary to exercise the utmost economy, but economy must be exercised with discretion. It is not an exhibition of strength by a Chancellor of the Exchequer to refuse every expenditure. The greatest strength is shown in a wise discrimination between that which is essential expenditure and that which can well be avoided. That is where the strength of a Chancellor of the Exchequer can be shown. The expenditure for which we are pleading now is not merely desirable but essential. It has to be found in some form or another, even if it does mean an extension of the period of repayment.
The Minister of Labour reminded us that local authorities had the power to feed children under the arrangements whereby those authorities take charge of necessitous children. What relief is that to a family of children of the ages of 5, 3 and 1, not one of them going to school? What help is it to those necessitous children to know that the next door family is having all the children fed at school? It does not alleviate their position one iota. Suppose there are a young father and mother with those three young children for whom they draw the 1s. per week. I am sure it must add to their bitterness of spirit to know that their neighbour's children are being fed at school and their own children cannot be so fed. But, it is said, "This is not all; there are other measures which the Government are bringing forward." That is perfectly true. But I know which measure will loom largest in the eyes of the workers. It is the one which brings immediate relief in time of suffering. They will see very little of the details of the other measures, the benefits of which will reach them indirectly. This will be a benefit reaching them directly and will be estimated as such.
Poor Law authorities are already seriously overburdened, and there should be the strongest inducement on the part of the Government to keep that clearly in mind. Go into South Wales, into one of the urban districts with a large mining population, where they suffered intense misery during the period of the great strike. I am not excusing the people who go out on strike or lock-out. That is not an arguable question for the moment I am merely trying to put before the House the position of local authorities in such an area. Funds are already exhausted by the troubles of the last few months, and the ratepayers throughout the whole of the district are in a serious condition, unable to meet any further commitments. Therefore it is somewhat futile to suggest that this Measure is to be supplemented from funds which are already exhausted, funds which have to be replenished by men and women who have not the means with which to replenish them. If the decision on this Amendment were left to those of us who were in the House there would be very little doubt what the result would be. If the decision be in favour of the Government it will be given by those who have not heard the Debate. Let that fact be well known.
I will put one point which has not been raised hitherto. It is a point about which I feel very strongly. Distress is always the birth-time of bitterness of spirit, and that bitterness of spirit remains years after the distress has passed away. There are towns in the country where for nearly a century intense bitterness has prevailed owing to a period of most acute distress. Let anybody study the history of Northampton and trace the conditions of life from the days when the men tramped to London in search of work. This bitterness of spirit arises inevitably during periods of distress. There are evidences of it already in existence—far too many and deplorable evidences. I cannot imagine anything which would more emphatically induce that bitterness of spirit than the offer to a starving family of 1s. per week per child. Men will go for this relief, many of them, with a sense of shame, and with a few exceptions with great hesitation. The money, if received, is something they are bound to take reluctantly, but there will not be a single father or mother who will not realise that in the offer of 1s. per child it is not relief that is being given to them, but an insult. It would have been better to have left it out of the Bill than to have placed in it such a miserably inadequate amount.
I agree with the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) that the time to have realised this was when the Bill was being drafted. It would have been better for my right hon. Friend to have realised at once that in placing in the Bill the sum of 1s. per child he was not only providing an altogether inadequate amount, but was committing an act of folly. I say deliberately, that this grant of 1s. per child to people in distress will be regarded by them as something approaching an insult, if not an absolute insult, which will produce a bitterness of spirit towards the State which will find its echo year after year in the action of those citizens who will feel the affront to-day. Surely in everything we do during periods of depression, we have not merely to have regard to the immediate moment, but we have also to look forward to the influence that it will exercise during at least the next few years. Relief granted in this
form will exercise a malevolent influence over the minds of men and women for many a year to come. It is a mistake, it is an act of folly. I cannot bring myself to believe that the country cannot afford to help its little children. It is impossible to bring oneself to that belief. £1,600,000, or £1,700,000—surely our nation is rich enough to find that amount and at least to give 2s. per head to children of parents who are anxious to find work and cannot, and whose misery is already acute.
I have only one sentence to add. Let no men ever attempt to judge or to sit in judgment upon the words or actions of men out of employment until they themselves have gone through that misery, with a wife stinting herself, with children asking for bread, and the father at his wits' end. When you have gone through that, then condemn the unwisdom, in word and action, of desperate men and women. In Heaven's name do not accentuate that desperation by a miserable sum which is no relief but, to my mind, dangerously approaches an insult, and which will exercise its influence for evil upon the State, bringing men to condemn a Government which has not gone to their relief, but which has offered them a stone when they are asking for bread.
Question put; "That the words 'one shilling' stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 145; Noes, 112.
Division No. 364.] AYES. [9.30 p.m. Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Chichester, Col. Robert Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E. Armitage, Robert Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill Hailwood, Augustine Armstrong, Henry Bruce Clough, Sir Robert Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Cobb, Sir Cyril Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Conway, Sir W. Martin Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City of Lon.) Davies, David (Montgomery) Haslam, Lewis Balfour, George (Hampstead) Davies, Sir David Sanders (Danbigh) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Dawson, Sir Philip Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Barnett, Major Richard W. Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Barnston, Major Harry Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Edgar, Clifford B. Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Evans, Ernest Hopkins, John W. W. Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Falcon, Captain Michael Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Blades, Sir George Rowland Fell, Sir Arthur Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Borwick, Major G. O. Flannery, Sir James Fortescue Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G. Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Ford, Patrick Johnston Hurd, Percy A. Breese, Major Charles E. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Frece, Sir Walter de Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Brown, Major D. C. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonol Francis E. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Gee, Captain Robert Jameson, John Gordon Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Jodrell, Neville Paul Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Johnson, Sir Stanley Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Campbell, J. D. G. Gould, James C. Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Carew, Charles Robert S. Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Carr, W. Theodore Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) King, Captain Henry Douglas Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar Lloyd, George Butler Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Greig, Colonel James William Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Stewart, Gershom Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Perkins, Walter Frank Strauss, Edward Anthony Lorden, John William Pickering, Colonel Emil W. Sutherland, Sir William Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Pratt, John William Tryon, Major George Clement Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Purchase, H. G. Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Ratcliffe, Henry Butler Watson, Captain John Bertrand Mitchell, Sir William Lane Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Remer, J. R. Williams, C. (Tavistock) Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Renwick, Sir George Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.) Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Wilson-Fox, Henry Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Wise, Frederick Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh) Samuel, Samuel- (W'dsworth, Putney) Worsfold, T. Cato Nall, Major Joseph Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Young, E. H. (Norwich) Neal, Arthur Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington) TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy. Parker, James Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Steel, Major S. Strang
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L. Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Halls, Walter Poison, Sir Thomas A. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hayday, Arthur Raffan, Peter Wilson Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Hayward, Evan Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Barton, Sir William (Oldham) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes) Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Hirst, G. H. Rose, Frank H. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Royce, William Stapleton Bromfield, William Hogge, James Myles Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Sexton, James Cairns, John Irving, Dan Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Cape, Thomas John, William (Rhondda, West) Smith, Sir Malcolm (Orkney) Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Johnstone, Joseph Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Casey, T. W. Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Spencer, George A. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Churchman, Sir Arthur Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Swan, J. E. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Taylor, J. Cope, Major William Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lawson, John James Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) Loseby, Captain C. E. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Lunn, William Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Davies, John (Lancs, Westhoughton) Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Tillett, Benjamin Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry M'Connell, Thomas Edward Wallace, J. Donald, Thompson M'Guffin, Samuel Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D. Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath) Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Finney, Samuel Macquisten, F. A. White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Galbraith, Samuel Maddocks, Henry White, Col. G. D. (Southport) Gardiner, James Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Wignall, James Gilbert, James Daniel Marks, Sir George Croydon Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Gillis, William Mills, John Edmund Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) Glanville, Harold James Moles, Thomas Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H. Goff, Sir R. Park Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Wilson, James (Dudley) Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Wintringham, Margaret Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Myers, Thomas Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Newbould, Alfred Ernest Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Gritten, W. G. Howard Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Grundy, T. W. O'Grady, James TELLERS FOR THE NOES .—.— Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Lieut.-Colonel Henderson and Captain Elliot.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words
"Provided that the weekly rate shall not in any case exceed nine shillings."
As the Minister has already indicated his intention of accepting this Amendment, I only formally move it.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (5), after the word "Act" ["In this Act"], to insert the words "unless the context otherwise requires."
This is purely a drafting Amendment, rendered necessary by the fact that, in the Committee stage, we introduced a provision under which if the wife were the breadwinner, an allowance might be made to her in respect of her husband.
Amendment agreed to.
The following Amendment stood on the Paper in the name of Lieut.-Colonel NALL: In Sub-section (5) to leave out the words "and includes a person who is living as his wife with the person claiming a grant."
On the undertaking that was given by the Minister this afternoon, I do not move the Amendment standing in my name.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (5), after the word "who" ["a person who is living as his wife"], to insert the words "has lived with him and".
I move this formally in order that there may be a discussion upon it. Am I to understand that the Amendment will be accepted or that the right hon. Gentleman will later on move a similar Amendment himself?
In Sub-section (1, a ), dealing with grants for maintenance of wife and children of unemployed workers, we propose, on the Motion of the hon. Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Inskip), to put in certain words dealing with the aspect of the case raised earlier to-day, but not providing for the six months period. Now we come to the question of the definition of "wife," and I am much obliged to my hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Nall) for not proceeding with the previous Amendment. I will take care that the substance of the proposal made by the hon. Member for Central Bristol will be inserted in another place, and I hope that will meet with approval.
On that point, I understand that the words which I propose to leave out will have to be left out when the other Amendment is inserted in another place.
Yes, I think that is so.
I am very glad to hear that so much importance is attached to another place that we are prepared to trust this Amendment to them.
I would point out that the hon. Member has exhausted his right to speak.
I will withdraw on the understanding given by the Minister.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Sub-section 5, to leave out the word "fourteen" ["any child under the age of fourteen years"], and to insert instead thereof the word "sixteen."
The effect of this Amendment is to increase from 14 years to 16 years the age at which children will be eligible to have the 1s. a week which has just been so generously granted to them by this House. I understand the Minister of Labour is not prepared to accept this Amendment, but is willing to put down an Amendment in his own name raising the age to 15 years.
It is the next Amendment.
I do not think that will meet the case. It has already been pointed out in this discussion that in the case of children who have been fortunate in securing scholarships—and others as well—parents have given their word and practically signed an agreement to keep these children at school until the age of 16. I also understand from the Press that one of the conditions—I do not know whether it has been withdrawn since—of sitting for examinations for the Civil Service, Excise, and Customs is that the candidate shall have been in continuous attendance at a school or some educational institution. If these children who are about 15 years of age and whose parents are desirous of having them sit for a Civil Service examination, are compulsorily taken away from school because of the inadequacy of the household income, you are going to prejudice the whole future of those who may at some time later on in their lives be of considerable assistance to the community. The Amendment which is in the name of the right hon. Gentleman does not meet the cases I am illustrating just now. If he can meet me on some of those points, I might consider withdrawing my Amendment, but until such time as I can have an assurance from him that the interests of children of that class are safeguarded in the educational institutions they are attending, I must feel compelled to keep the Amendment before the House.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I understand that the Bill is intended to give a supplementary grant to dependent children. Up to the age of 16 a young person is not insurable under the Unemployment Insurance Act, and not being insurable and being out of employment between the ages of 14 and 16 they become dependent upon their parents, and in that sense are dependent children, because the Act makes no provision for them receiving any unemployment pay until they are 16 or more.
My hon. Friends have supported the Amendment by arguments which have nothing to do with it. The hon. Member for Govan (Mr. N. Maclean) based the whole of his case, or a great deal of it, upon the supreme desirability of helping the parent who is struggling to keep his child at school; but his Amendment has nothing to do with the child' going to school. Under his Amendment the child would be dependent up to the age of 16, but that child might be at work and earning wages, or running the streets.
Would they be dependent if they were at work?
The Clause says:
"The expression 'a dependent child' means any child under the age of 14 years who is maintained wholly or mainly at the cost of the person claiming the grant."
I agree. I think my hon. Friend is right about the child going to work, but still there is nothing in the Amendment about the child going to school.
A child at school is surely maintained wholly by his parents, and that brings in my point. I am asking for an extension because of the fact that some parents are sacrificing themselves in order to give their children a better education than they themselves received, and by doing something which is going to cut away the support they can give to those children you are jeopardising the whole future of the children arfd rendering worthless the sacrifice already made by the parents.
I am trying to meet that case up to the age of 15 in my Amendment. My hon. Friend says, "Surely, if they are going to sohool, they are being maintained wholly?" That is true, but the converse is not true, that if they are being maintained wholly they are therefore going to school. Not at all; they may be running about the streets, and I do not think my hon. Friend looked quite close enough at the precise effect of his Amendment. It will not do for him to base that, upon the extreme desirability of doing what we can to assist the parent who wants to keep his child at school. His Amendment does not do that.
There is an Amendment on the Paper in my name a little lower down, to insert the words,
"or any child who, between the age of 14 years and 16 years, is in regular attendance at an educational institution."
Then we have got two categories. There is the dependent child under the age of 14 who is maintained wholly, or any child who, between the ages of 14 and 16, is in regular attendance at a school. "I would give it to those who go to school in my later Amendment," says the hon. Member, "but in my former Amendment I am not concerned with whether they go to school or not."
I put down an alternative here, in order to get something from the Government.
I was right, therefore, in confining my attention to the first Amendment. My hon. Friend called my attention to the fact that I had missed something, but now he says it is an alternative.
I cannot understand the right hon. Gentleman riding away on a side issue. The Act provides that persons cannot be insured under 16. Take the case of an unemployed worker with a family. Here is a boy or girl of 15, with a healthy appetite, as boys and girls have, and a considerable cost to the family, and for the miserable sum of 1s. a week we have an objection raised. I really cannot speak without indignation at the cheeseparing, miserable policy that prevents a Minister making any real concession in any way to anybody in the House who really wants to see a rather more generous treatment meted out in the exceptional circumstances of the case. I am absolutely unable to understand the position, and I am more entirely unable to understand the riding away on a side issue, on a chance word, instead of facing the Amendment boldly and saying, "No, we are not prepared to grant it."
Before we are called upon to decide this matter, I would like to put a point to my right hon. Friend which I feel has escaped his notice. This Bill, for the purpose of these grants, ought not to set up in law some new definition of what a child is. It cannot, surely, be said that this Bill is to give grants to children if children between 14 and 16, or between 15 and 16, are to be denied the grants. Persons over 14 years of age and under 16 continue to be children, and are we to be told that, though the Bill is to give these grants to children, those who happen to be between 15 and 16 are not to receive them? If that be so, the right hon. Gentleman is setting up a new definition of what a child is. My hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw) rightly says that the child of 16 has an appetite perhaps sharper than the child of 15, or 14, or 12, or 10, and it is a most unfair thing to fix this arbitrary figure of 14, which I believe it is suggested by the Government shall be changed to 15.
If they go to school.
There, again, is another condition, another feature of the exclusiveness and selectiveness of this Bill, which is to pick and choose all manner of persons, so that it will be a real trouble in the future to find out who is or who is not to be entitled to any of these grants. The general objection to any broadening of these grants has been finance, but we have heard nothing in the arguments of the right hon. Gentleman as to what the cost of this Amendment will be.
Nearly £250,000.
I suggest that a sum like that is a sum which could be found under the provisions of that part of the Bill to which I have previously drawn attention, namely, the provisions which permit the right hon. Gentleman to continue the payment to this fund, even after the time has arrived when persons will no longer receive grants from the fund, and at that cost of £250,000 I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that, as a matter of equity as between household and household, and child and child, it would be a fair thing to raise the age to 16.
The thing that appeals to me with regard to this Amendment is that there is a large section of the young population who will not be provided for under the unemployment insurance, or under the Bill at present under consideration, except as regards children who are going to school. But surely children who do not go to school must be provided for, and, as has been suggested, those children are at an age when they will perhaps require more food than at any other age of childhood. The only provision for them is that part of the five shillings provided for the father or the mother, and part of the shilling provided for other children of the family, must be pooled in order to feed these children between the ages of 14 and 16. I am quite sure that that cannot be justified on any principle whatsoever, except on the principle that the nation is absolutely bankrupt. I do appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to have these children included, because there are many families with perhaps one or two children, who will not otherwise be provided for, and their feeding must come out of the small provision made for the parents. I do hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider that position, even though it is said it will cost £250,000, and I think these estimates are sometimes used as scarecrows to frighten away people. I do not think it will cost quite that sum.
10.0 P.M.
If you have this enormous unemployment, it is quite obvious that the children who leave school, say, at the maximum age of 15, which I gather my right hon. Friend is going to accept, have to find work, but it is obvious that the child of 15 cannot begin work without nourishment. It is about the worst moment a child can enter on any trade or any profession. Assume for a moment that the parents can do no more in the matter of education, and that, to use my right hon. Friend's phrase, they are running the streets. Why are they running the streets? Because of the abnormal unemployment, and there is no trade and no profession which can permit of an extra margin being introduced either into that trade or that profession. My right hon. Friend says that if you give a child between 14 and 16, 1s. a week, it is going to cost £250,000, but supposing, as will be the case, that the child between 14 and 16 will not be nourished as it ought to be at a time in its physical life when it requires most nourishment, what is the cost to the nation going to be when that child grows older? We were talking in the War about our 03 population. If you stunt the physique of a boy or girl between 14 and 15, you are stunting that physique permanently as an asset of the nation of the future. Most of us remember that the Minister of Labour spent his early years in the teaching profession. He came into this House as a representative of the teaching profession. I remember, when I was not in this House, I used to admire the stand he made for the education of children in this country. He went further than any man in this House at that time, some 10, 15, or 20 years ago, as the exponent of what was our true educational system, and I am perfectly certain he must feel—I do not quite know what phrase one ought to use—but he must feel rather chagrined that to-night he, as the exponent of the widest possible education scheme for children introduced into this House, and as the first representative and the first voice from teachers, should be in the position of Minister of Labour denying to boys and girls between 14 and 16 the necessary nourishment of 1s. per week, or £2 12s. per year. I do not know whether the House realises that this nation to-day is contributing 1s. per week per family towards old age pensions, or £2 12s. per year, to the veterans of industry. We are asking the Minister of Labour to spend £2 12s. per year upon those who are entering soon into industry. Is he going to get up as an exponent of this Government and say that we cannot do it? After all, a great point has been made of the fact that we are called together to discuss this question of unemployment. If we are, we have got to look at it with a long view.
Hear, hear!
Is my hon. Friend prepared to get up and defend the contribution of 1s. per week towards the nourishment of the child who will be the citizen of this Empire inside the next 10 years?
indicated assent .
If the hon. Member is willing to get up and defend it, then I am ashamed of the attitude he will take. This country depends upon the potentiality of its youth.
Not by giving them doles.
Who is giving them doles? We want to give them food.
The Debate is now running back to the question which has just been decided by the House. We are not on the general question now, but only on the question of the age as between 14 and 16.
Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am trying to confine myself to that. It is quite true it is between the ages of 14 and 16. The point that we have at issue is whether the child between 14 and 16 is or is not to have food. We say that the child cannot have food or nourishment, cannot have the physique, unless the Government are prepared to make this advance. I should be ashamed of the Government and of the House of Commons if we are not prepared to extend the age to 16 from the educational point of view. That has been the whole aim and trend of the policy of the Government. It is a fine ideal. There are very few fathers and mothers of families in this country who can leave their children anything better or anything more satisfactory than a better education than they themselves have had. The Government have advised and encouraged us to keep our children at school, and now in a period of unemployment and when the country is at a pinch, they are going to pinch that part of the citizenship of this country which is the most potential in value. I hope my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, who came into this House as an advocate of the child and the advantages that should be given to the child, will not depart from his ideal of seeing that that child has the necessary subsistence to enable him to achieve this object and ideal.
The hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) has challenged me, and while not wishing to detain the House for more than a moment or two, I desire to answer that challenge. I assert, as I have always asserted, both in this House and outside, that this is not only a matter of giving a penny to the child. Every penny given to the child increases the state of unemployment in this country. It is no use coming down here, and claiming, as hon. Members opposite do, that they alone of all the Members of this House have sympathy and good feeling towards the children of the unemployed. I challenge hon. Members to say what have they themselves done to help in this particular matter What have they done but to come down here and talk about the way their "hearts are bleeding"—[HON. MEMBERS: "Stop smoking!"]
If the hon. Member will come down to the East End of London, we will show him what we have done.
I am sure the hon. Member for East Edinburgh does not wish to misrepresent the situation. What he said was that this, after all, is a question of £2 10s. per year. But what are the facts? We are spending £100,000,000 a year already upon education.
Yes, and £250,000,000 on armaments.
What has that got to do with it, except to mean that we must reduce our expenditure on education in order to make ourselves safe through our armaments? However, I will not be led away by the interruption of the hon. Member, because the point I want to make is that the hon. Gentleman, in company with an hon. Member below the gangway, and other Members opposite, have really gone on talking about 1s. a week or £2 12s. a year, whereas at the present time, as I say, we are spending £100,000,000 on education. We are giving not only 1s. per week per child, but that is an addition to the 20s. a week given to the father, which is plus the 1s. per child. That has all been left out, and as the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken says: the more we give, and the more we make unemployment comfortable, the more unemployment we shall have.
I do not desire to oppose any statement made by the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) because I believe he has shown, by his personal conduct that he is just as much in sympathy with the unemployed as any man here. At the same time I would eay to him that the period for the rigid application of his economic doctrines is a long time past, and that we are committed a great deal, in this and other Bills in the general administration of the country, to a great deal in the way of helping the under-dog. This Bill makes some provision—I wish it had made more, because after all, in connection with the distress of unemployment this is the first consideration that will appeal to a man. I got up, however, with a view of inviting the Minister of Labour to make a brief statement of his intentions with regard to this matter generally which might help us to dispose of these two or three Amendments at one time. We have on the Paper an Amendment to increase the age from 14 to 16 without any qualification at all about attending school or otherwise. I notice that the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. N. Maclean) did not object that he has in view to enable parents to continue the scholastic career of the boys and girls up to the age of 16. I am quite satisfied that the best parents in the country make great sacrifices to carry that out. I suggest to my hon. Friend in front of me that to give money for this purpose is not money lost. It is going to increase the efficiency of the boys and girls in after life, and, therefore, the small amount that we may cast upon the water may return to the community after many days increased many fold.
That brings me to the practical point that I had in my mind. In addition to the Amendment we are discussing to raise the age from 14 to 16 there follows an Amendment by the Minister himself which goes to the age of 15. There is another Amendment further down to which the name of the hon. Member for Govan is attached, to raise the age to 16 conditional in regard to attendance at school. Cannot we harmonise his Amendment and the others with the one down in the name of the Labour Minister? Cannot the right hon. Gentleman make his 15 read 16, and then possibly the House will agree to dispose of the three Amendments together?
I interrupted the hon. Gentleman opposite when he was speaking to say that the cost of raising the age from 14 to 16 would be a quarter of a million. I should like to correct that statement by saying that the cost of going beyond the original four, plus going up to the age of 16, would be a quarter of a million. My right hon. Friend the Member for the Gorbals Division (Mr. Barnes) makes an appeal in relation to the Amendment I have put on the Paper, where I propose to extend the age to 15 provided the child is under full-time instruction—because there is a difficulty in relation to the full-time instruction in a day school. I put that down perhaps as an item, but the memory of any good move in this direction has been overlain since then by, I have no doubt, lots of very dreadful things that I have done. But I put it down, because I know there are lots of boys and girls who have gained scholarships, and the parents have had a very hard struggle through all this long period of unemployment to keep them at school. In that case up to 15 there is the 1s. There is not, I think, an hon. Member in the House who will begrudge that. I am appealed to whether I will make that 15 into 16. I have consulted with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and we have agreed that it is expedient that on the whole to meet the parent who has made the struggle. Many of these scholarships are held certainly up to 16; and it would, therefore, be advantageous if we give this in the form suggested.
In these circumstances, I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (5), after the word "grant" ["cost of the person claiming the grant"], insert the words
"or any child between the ages of fourteen and sixteen who is under full-time instruction in a day school and is so maintained as aforesaid."—[ Dr. Macnamara. ]
CLAUSE 2.—(Provision of funds for purposes of the Act.)
(1) For the purpose of providing funds for the payment of grants under this Act every employed person liable to pay contributions under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1920 and 1921, or under any special scheme made under those Acts (in this Act referred to as "an insured person"), and the employer of every such person shall be liable to pay contributions at the rates specified in Part I of the Schedule to this Act, and there shall for the purpose aforesaid be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament a contribution of such an amount as may be determined by the Treasury to be approximately equivalent to the sum which would be produced by weekly contributions paid in respect of insured persons at the rates specified in Part II of the said Schedule as respects men, women, boys, and girls respectively.
(2) The contributions payable under this Act by an insured person and his employer shall be paid and collected in the same manner as and together with the contributions payable in respect of insured persons under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1920 and 1921, or under any special scheme made thereunder, as the case requires, and the provisions of those Acts relating to the payment and collection of contributions (including the provisions of any regulations made under those Acts), and the provisions of those Acts for securing the payment of contributions (including provisions as to penalties and proceedings for the recovery of contributions and the provisions of Section twenty-nine of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920, which relate to the powers of inspectors), shall, subject to any prescribed modifications, apply accordingly.
The aggregate amount collected by way of contributions under this Act and by way of contributions under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1920 and 1921, shall be apportioned between the fund to be constituted under this Act and the unemployment fund in accordance with directions to be given by the Treasury.
(3) All contributions payable under this Act by employers and insured persons or out of moneys provided by Parliament shall be paid into a fund under the control and management of the Minister of Labour, to be called the Unemployed Workers' Dependants Fund. The accounts of the said fund shall be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General.
(4) The sums to be contributed under this Act out of moneys provided by Parliament shall be paid into the said fund in such manner and at such times as the Treasury may determine, and the contributions paid under this Act in respect of persons insured under any special scheme shall be paid into the said fund in such manner and at such times as may be agreed between the Minister of Labour and the body charged with the administration of the scheme, or in default of agreement may be determined by the Treasury.
(5) Contributions under this Act shall be payable in respect of the period beginning on the seventh day of November, nineteen hundred and twenty-one, and ending on the seventh day of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-two, inclusive.
Provided that if it is certified by the Treasury and the Minister of Labour that the amount of the contributions payable under this Act in respect of the period aforesaid is insufficient to meet the charges on the fund, contributions shall continue to be payable for such further period as is declared by the certificate to be necessary for the purpose of meeting the deficiency.
On the certificate being issued under this Section the Minister of Labour shall cause the certificate, together with a special report with reference thereto, to be laid before Parliament.
(6) If it appears to the Treasury at any time that the rates of contributions under this Act are insufficient to meet the liabilities of the Unemployed Workers' Dependants Fund the Minister of Labour shall, if the Treasury so direct, by Order make such temporary modifications in the rates of the grants as he thinks necessary in the circumstances of the case.
On an Order being made under this Subsection the Minister shall cause the Order, together with a special report as to the reasons for making the Order, to be laid before Parliament.
(7) Any balance remaining in the Unemployed Workers' Dependants Fund, after discharging its liabilities under this Act, shall be apportioned equitably, in accordance with directions to be given by the Minister of Labour, between the Unemployment Fund and the several funds out of which benefits under any special schemes are payable.
(8) In this Section the expression "the Unemployment Fund" means the fund constituted under the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920.
The first Amendment, standing in the name of the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson)—in Sub-section (1) to leave out the words
"every employed person liable to pay contributions under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1920 and 1921, or under any special scheme made under those Acts (in this Act referred to as 'an insured person'), and the employer of every such person shall be liable to pay contributions at the rates specified in Part I of the Schedule to this Act, and"—
strikes at the whole root of the Bill, and I do not propose to call it.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "pay contributions" ["liable to pay contributions under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1920 and 1921"], and to insert instead thereof the words, "be insured."
This is not much more than a drafting Amendment, and I am bringing in the people who come under one special scheme. They do not pay contributions in the ordinary way like insured persons, and I want to meet them. I want them in the Bill, but under the special scheme they do not pay contributions, but they have an arrangement with their employers.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to add the words
"Provided that any employed person who is not employed for more than two days in any one week shall be exempt from payment of contribution in respect of that week."
My Amendment affects workers on riverside docks and places where casual work is prevalent. I hope the Minister of Labour will further consider this ques- tion. I submit that there is a very real hardship upon the workers engaged intermittently for not more than two days per week who are precluded from taking any advantage of the Bill now before the House. In Committee the right hon. Gentleman suggested that these workers might get some advantages.
So they do.
You have workers on riverside docks and elsewhere who work only two days per week for a considerable period. Take the men working on Mon day and Tuesday each week. I submit that, under the provisions of the Acts that have been passed, they cannot get any benefit from the Bill which is now before us, because under the amending Act of last year there is to be a six-days' waiting period. A man working on Monday and Tuesday, and who is idle for the rest of the week is only four days unemployed, and he starts again on Monday and possibly on Tuesday, and again he is four days unemployed. I submit that in a case where a man is working like that, first two days on and then four days off, and so on, right through the month or months, that these men who will be compelled under this Bill to pay the extra addi tional contribution will be debarred from getting any benefit thereby, unless the Minister reduces the waiting period, which is six days under the Insurance Act—
I cannot do that.
So long as the waiting period is six days' unemployment, and so long as the man is working intermittently two days a week and lying idle the other four days, it will be impossible for him to qualify for benefit, and, unless some Amendment is proposed, he will be paying contributions for which he will get absolutely nothing in return. The right hon. Gentleman was most sympathetic when this Amendment was considered in Committee, and if I understood him rightly, his difficulty was that he had no machinery by means of which he could do this. But may I suggest a means whereby he could meet this difficulty. If he looks at paragraph ( b ) of Sub-section (2) of Section 2 of the Act of 1920, he will see it is provided that if two periods of unemployment of not less than two days are separated by a period of not more than two days during which the insured has not been employed for more than 24 hours, then it shall be reckoned as a period of unemployment. That covers the case of a man who works only one day a week, and if the right hon. Gentleman will increase the qualification of not working more than 24 hours to 48 hours, I submit he will be able to bring in these men whose claims I am advocating by merely amending the machinery of the existing Act without setting up more complicated machinery. This is certainly complicated, but I hope I have made it clear that if he will alter the period from 24 hours to 48 hours he will get over the objections raised when this matter was in Committee. I submit there is a real hardship inflicted by the Bill in its present form to men working two days a week intermittently. Under the Act as it now exists, and under this Bill, such men would be compelled to pay this additional contribution although they cannot gain any advantage. Therefore, I submit, if my statement is correct and if the Minister, realising there is a six days' waiting period, will make this change, the men whose claim I am pressing can have the advantage I am seeking for them.
All through this Debate my sympathy has gone out to the Minister of Labour, and I want to congratulate him on the great courage with which he has tackled a very difficult and complex position. The instrument he has to use is a very difficult one. It reminds me of Bret Harte's episode of the entertainer in a mining camp, who had to manipulate an instrument which was not only out of tune, but out of repair, and a notice was posted up requesting the audience "not to shoot the musician, for he was doing his best." I recognise the difficulty of legislating, in a matter like this, which is of a national character, for sections, and therefore I entirely sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman. The section with which I am dealing is a large and considerable one. The casual labourers of this country number about 500,000 men, and 50 per cent. of them will be further penalised by this 2d. extra on the sum that they are already paying. The right hon. Gentleman said that this Bill illustrated the parable of the vineyard. Might I remind him that in the parable of the vineyard there was an unjust steward, and the right hon. Gentleman, against his own will, has had to fight that position all through this Bill.
Let me further illustrate by quoting the facts of the case. My hon. Friend the Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson) referred to the men who were working one and two days a week, but I want to go further. I have case after case brought before me where men, by only working half a day a week, are compelled to pay 1s. 2d. for National Health Insurance on the one hand and Unemployment Insurance on the other. I am afraid I shall again have to repeat myself to prove my case. We cannot qualify in any circumstances under the 1921 Act. It lays down the principle that a man must be idle for six consecutive days; but our week is not a six-day week—it is only five and a half days.
It does not say that he must be six consecutive days off.
He must be six days idle; I will put it that way. But if a man is idle the whole week in our industry he cannot qualify, because our week only consists of five and a half days, and therefore, in order to qualify, a man has to go into the next week, and be unemployed for half a day on the Monday. In that case, if he is idle for half a day on the Monday, he is qualifying in two weeks; he cannot qualify in one. But if he is em ployed for half a day on the Monday, he is again disqualified for the following week. The thing goes on and on, like Tennyson's brook, all the time. There is no end to it. I am not quarrelling with the right hon. Gentleman's figures, but I should like to be sure whether the figures he gives represent the true facts of the case or not. He referred to Liverpool and told us there were 23,000 casual labourers insured under this Act. That is not quite a correct figure. There are 23,000 insured who are registered in the clearing house, but outside that there are 10,000 or 15,000 not registered who are insured under the 1921 Act. The right hon. Gentleman's figures are based on the clearing house figures. I am well acquainted with them.
Do they pay their contributions?
They pay contributions. The right hon. Gentleman's statement was that in a certain period only £14,000 was collected from the employers and the workmen, and £63,000 was paid out.
Eighteen thousand pounds was collected.
I should like to know does the £63,000 represent only the docker, or does it represent all the auxiliary trades that are attached to the docks? It is very right to get this information, because if the figures are correct you are paying the casual labourer in Liverpool three times as much as he is paying and the employer as well. There is certainly something wrong with the figures somewhere. I am not disputing that the right hon. Gentleman's information is correct as he got it. I am quarrelling with the actual application of the £63,000 as it affects the ordinary casual labourer. I should also like to point out how this affects the matter. Supposing he gets a half-day on Monday and no more during the week, as many of them do, he is disqualified, although he is paying his 1s. 2d. he is getting 8s. a week for half a day. He goes on paying his 1s. 2d. week after week and never qualifies at all. The right hon. Gentleman made an interesting statement. If the inference conveyed in it is correct it does away with a lot of my objection. It is most important that we should have a right interpretation of what he said:
We have been challenged from below the Gangway as to what we have done for the question of unemployment. Our record in this House compares very favourably with the record of the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) in that respect. When this country was struggling and going through a very serious crisis, we backed up the country; but we warned the House again and again of the consequences of unemployment when the War was over. The trade union movement has spent millions of pounds on this unemployment question. There is not one of us out of our very limited resources who has not dozens of pensioners on our list, whom we meet every day of the week. They come to my office. I had one at my office to-day. He was wearing ribbons across his breast, representing valour in every battle on the Continent. That man was loyal before this curse of unemployment overtook him and his family, but in my presence—I regret to say it—he tore the ribbons off his breast and threw them at me, blaming me and my friends for advocating defence of this country during the crisis through which we passed. That is what we have to meet every day. We have these gaunt, emaciated men coming to see us. They are Out of employment and cannot get it. Their so-called dole has lapsed. It is not a dole. It is the men's money coming back to them. There is no dole about it. The assistance from the Unemployment Insurance Fund, if they were entitled to it, has lapsed and their wives and children are starving, and these men say and do things that are not justifiable, but under the circumstances can be well understood, and the hon. Gentleman asks us what we have done for the unem ployed. I would like to know what he has done for them. I know that the difficulties of the Minister of Lahour are great, and I sympathise with him heartily, but cannot he conceive some way out of this morass? I know that if he makes an exception in one case others will come forward, and ask for concessions; but there is not a case in the whole of industry to-day that can compare with the one I am putting to the House—
The textile trade.
In the textile trade it is under-employment rather than unemployment, and there again I see the right hon. Gentleman's difficulties. But we are collecting 13,000,000 1s. 2d. every week. Have the right hon. Gentleman and the Government ever considered how much more advisable it would be to employ that money, not far short of £1,000,000 a week, if not on subsidising industries that are at some disadvantage by foreign competition, at least in finding some kind of useful productive work for the men and paying them wages instead of unemployed benefit?
The hon. Member must confine himself to matters which arise on the Amendment. The main features of the Bill have been settled, and the Amendment deals only with the exemption from contribution of persons not employed for more than two days in a week.
I will endeavour to follow your advice, Sir, because you are always very generous in your interpretation of the Rules of the House so far as I am concerned. As the right hon. Gentleman is fond of parables, I want to suggest one to him—the parable of the asses. When Saul went out to seek his father's asses, the people made him King. When he came to a country where the people were in want of a King, they proclaimed him King, and then Samuel said:
"And as for thine asses that were lost three days ago set not thy mind on them; for they are found."
I hope that this Amendment will not be pressed to a division because of the fact that it does not deal with the whole question and only touches a certain section of the workers who are badly hit by the present state of affairs. I am sure that neither the Minister of Labour nor the rest of the House will want to help the unemployed at the cost, however small, of those who are partially employed or only earning part wages. In the name of the hon. Member for St. Helens (Mr. Sexton) there is an Amendment next on the Paper which if this Amendment were passed, would be destroyed, which Amendment deals with the two classes of cases, both the one he described and the one I am about to describe in a moment. Let me talk, if I may, of the cotton weaving trade of Lancashire. The stories about "ca' canny" and about not giving a reasonable week's work for a week's wages do not apply to that industry. It is an industry that suffered throughout the War, for whilst other people, including those for whom the hon. Member who hae just sat down speaks, were working full time and overtime at big wages, the people for whom I am speaking were working short time and were being supported from a fund collected from the industry and administered by the industry, without any assistance at all, comparatively speaking, from the State.
May I offer an explanation? I intended, but forgot, to explain that I was discussing both the Amendment before the House and a later Amendment standing in my own name. I had not lost eight of the fact that the Amendment standing in my name is even better than that before the House. I understood that the discussion was taking place on both Amendments simultaneously.
The hon. Member for St. Helens (Mr. Sexton) did approach me on that question, and suggested to me that if I allowed the two Amendments to be covered together in the Debate, there would not be a fresh discussion, although there might be a further Division on the second Amendment.
I thank you, Sir, for that gives me an opportunity of putting my full case for the Second Amendment, as against that before the House. I have described the case of a trade which has as good a claim on the country as any trade can have, and the condition in which that trade would be left if this Amendment were accepted would be that, after all, our people, who are working under very peculiar circumstances, would be asked to do things quite as harsh and unjust as have been described and they would get no relief at all. The method of working the cotton weaving industry is generally for a worker to run four looms, but we do not, as a rule, play definitely when trade is bad; on the contrary, the machines are reduced, sometimes to three and sometimes to two looms. Thousands of our workers are now, and have been for over 12 months, engaged every day of the week at the factory, but for half wages.
And less.
Surely the House is not going to say that these people are to contribute, in however small a way, to the support of unemployment? They are themselves unemployed, practically speaking, for half their time. I appeal to the Minister of Labour to give consideration to the second Amendment, to be moved later, which forms a real basis. A man or woman should not be called upon to pay unless the sum received by him or her is such that payment can fairly be demanded. The amount suggested in the second Amendment, 30s., is the most reasonable amount that can be suggested. What can a man get when he is definitely unemployed? Under the original proposal he gets a maximum of 24s. a week benefit. Surely an employed person has a right to say that unless he or she gets 30s. a week in wages, no contribution should be expected.
I do not know whether I am quite in order in discussing the first or the second Amendment, or both. [HON. MEMBERS: "Both."] The first Amendment says:
"Provided that any employed person who is not employed for more than two days in any one week shall be exempt from payment of contribution in respect of that week."
The second Amendment is as follows:
"Provided that any employed person whose wages for any one week do not exceed thirty shillings shall be exempt from payment of contribution in respect of that week."
I want to call the attention of the House to the fact there are many men at the present time who are working one day, and receiving more than 30s. for that day's work. Are they to be exempt because they have only worked one day? Last week I gave the House a few facts with regard to what men were working. May I now give one or two facts in regard to the amount men are receiving for working one or two days a week? Perhaps the House may be rather surprised at these figures, but I am going to give them facts that have taken place during the last few days. On 26th October—I know, and I am prepared to prove it—on that date, 12 men were working on a certain job not far from where we are sitting at the present time. For one hour and 40 minutes' work the 12 men received £10 12s. 9d., or 18s. each. That was for one hour and 40 minutes' easy work, that many men could perform.
What was the work?
It was simply going to the holds of a ship, putting a rope through some coils of wire—not barbed wire—hitching it on to the head of the winch, and lifting it out of the ship's hold. They received that amount of money. I am going to give you another fact, and I am speaking from what I know. On 27th October, only three or four days ago, a gang of 12 men—again, within about a mile of where we are sitting at the present time—worked upon 192 tons of cargo, turning it into a hold. In eight hours they received £22 8s. 3d., or £1 17s. 4d. a man. They had two hours' overtime, and each man received £2 5s. 10d. for 10 hours' work, including two hours' overtime. Are those men to be exempt? [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Even if the Amendment refers to men doing work of this character they will be exempt.
We are hearing too much about unemployment. What we want to hear about is what is causing unemployment. I have no hesitation in saying that a large amount of the unemployment at the present time is caused by the action of the trade unions and of the members of the trade unions themselves. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]
This is an echo of old speeches. It was quite in order when we began the proceedings a fortnight ago, but we have got beyond that stage now. We are dealing with the details of the Bill, and the question is as between the two Amendments of two days or the 30s.
I quite agree, but I tried to put a few facts before the House which, in a certain section of the House, were unpopular. The first Amendment says that any employed person who is not employed for more than two days a week shall be exempt from payment of contribution in respect of that week. Surely a man making £1 10s. or £1 15s. a day ought not to be exempt. I think, therefore, that I am in order to that extent. I sincerely hope, before we agree to any Amendment of this description, that we shall, by some means or other, inquire whether there ought to be a general exemption from contribution, or that only those who earn less than a certain amount of money ought to be exempt. I maintain that at the present time, owing to the trade union conditions and rates of wages, there are many more men thrown out of employment by the action of those bodies than by actual lack of employment or by bad trade. If ever I get an opportunity I shall take it of informing the House as to what is the true state of affairs regarding labour at the present time. The hon. Member for St. Helens (Mr. Sexton) told a pitiful story about starving people. Yes, there are starving people, but there are others earning £8 and £10 a week, and if there was a general disposition to employ more labour—[HON. MEMBERS: "We do not want to exempt them!"] No, we do not want to exempt them. What we want to do is to see that instead of having these men drawing such large sums of money we should have a greater number of men drawing £3 or £4 a week.
Looking at these two Amendments, it is easy to understand—despite the personality of the hon. Member who has moved the first Amendment—that one has been drafted by those who thoroughly understands the industrial position, while the other has been drafted by one who only theorises about it. There is not the slightest doubt, if it were left as it stands, it would back up the contention of the hon. Member for Central Newcastle (Sir G. Renwick), though not displaying the same venom towards industrial organisation as the hon. Baronet. Take the men whom I represent. It is a well-known fact and cannot be disputed, that some of these men who work for two days, and for whom hon. Members have such sympathy, are getting considerably more in those two days than is received by my men who work a whole week at one of the hardest kinds of labour done in this country. If you insert the proposal as to the two days, you say that these men, even though they may earn double the amount earned by my men, should be excluded from contribution. The sensible way of dealing with the subject is along the lines of the Labour party's Amendment, namely, that the amount of recompense received by a man in a week should decide whether or not he is entitled to contribute. The Minister of Labour would be well advised to proceed on that principle to do something towards mitigating the situation described by hon. Members. There are men at the present moment who are working on short time or are working with a smaller number of machines because of the dearth of orders for the product which they are engaged on, and to all intents and purposes they are in the position of unemployed men, but they are able to keep themselves without falling on the fund of the Unemployment Insurance Act.
11.0 P.M.
To burden them with additional contributions under the special circumstances of the case would be unjust and unfair. I could not, even if the Minister could, accept this Amendment. I should vote against it, when I know for a fact, without anyone outside the trade unions telling me, that there are men who actually earn double the pay of my men by working two days. When a man has worked all his time, or four or five days a week, and has not earned more than 30s., I do not think we should put this extra contribution upon him, and I appeal to my right hon. Friend to take that point into consideration, and by that means we may be able to dispose of all these Amendments.
We have two proposals before us, dealing with contributions only—first of all, that anyone who does not work more than two days a week should not contribute, although I assume he would be entitled to the grant; the other proposition is that if a person does not earn more than 30s. he should not contribute. Let me point out that we are not providing here any counsel of perfection, but a temporary expedient. This is going to run for six months, and the whole virtue of it depends upon us getting it running expeditiously and quickly. Otherwise, all the virtue of it is gone. I am going to use the machinery of the Insurance Acts. There are the people, there are the cards, there are the stamps. I have got them all ticketed off, simply and expeditiously, and by overstamping the card 2d. to use a colloquialism, the trick is done. I have got their money, and I hope to be able to hand it out quickly. According to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson), my man at the unemployment exchange would have to say: "You did not work more than two days last week, and so I must not over-stamp you 2d." In the case of the other Amendment the official would have to say: "I do not want to overstamp you 2d., because you will not earn 30s. this coming week." How does he know that? I can assure my hon. Friends that, whatever may be the merits of the case of a man not contributing because he may not earn 30s., it is administratively impossible. It is a curious fact that these people at the lower rates of wages do not do so badly out of the insurance scheme, upon which this fund is going to be based and run. Take the Liverpool docks. When we were discussing the Insurance Act last July, and re-imposed a six days' waiting period, my hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens (Mr. Sexton) said, in effect: "That does the trick so far as my poor men are concerned. They have not had much out of the Act before, and now, their work being so intermittent and casual, if you impose a six days' waiting period, they will never get a farthing out of it." What has been the result?
I was talking of the man with a half-day's work.
No. Let the hon. Member look up the OFFICIAL REPORT, and he will find that his argument against the six days' waiting period was that it was grossly unjust on the casual worker, who would be hit very hard indeed by the six days' waiting period for qualification for benefit. In the three months since the six days' waiting period started the Liverpool dockers and their employers paid in £18,000. There has been the contribution of the State added to that. They have drawn out £63,000. These figures, in both cases, are in relation to men registered under the dock scheme, and I am not putting £18,000 in respect of one lot of men, and £63,000 in respect of another lot. How could I do that? That would be manifestly wrong. These are the same men, and I think my hon. Friend will find that to the people on short time, and who have been earning, say, less than their 30s., the Insurance Act has been a real advantage, and I do not believe that it can be said that at the other end these people have not secured a reasonable amount of justice from the fact that they have paid into this particular fund. There is only one thing more. Both of these Amendments, with great respect, are impracticable, and the imposition of the contribution is in neither case unfair, because based on the Insurance Act the contributor does really get, if he needs it, a pretty fair insurance.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make this quite clear? Is the calculation under the 2d. levy subject to the calculation under the 1921 Act? If it is, then the man with the half day is out of it.
The man with the half day, if he has made his waiting period, gets benefit under the Act for the rest of the week, otherwise they would not have paid in £18,000, and got out £63,000. My hon. Friend asks whether a man who works two days and has four days oft can get any benefit out of the Insurance Act, and whether he can get anything out of this? The most simple case would be if he had already made his six-day waiting period. He knows that if he has made his six-day waiting period, he would get that. But that is not the hon. Gentleman's case. His case is where the man starts with two days' work and four days off. The hon. Member for Middlesbrough says that that man might never get any help. That is not the case. Here is a man who works Monday and Tuesday. He is off work Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. Then he works the following Monday and Tuesday. Then he is off Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. By the time the Thursday is closed, that man has made his waiting period, because he has fours days off in the first week and two days off in the second, and that makes six. Therefore, that man would be entitled from that point onwards to whatever benefit is due to him under the Insurance Act, and, therefore, under this Act.
How does the right hon. Gentleman get over Sub-section (2) of Section 7, which says that the two days which may be taken off the waiting period must not have more than 24 hours' work in between periods of two days' waiting?
I am not sure that we are speaking about the same thing. Let me try again to make it clear. The man who works on Monday and Tuesday and stands off on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday, and works again on Monday and Tuesday and then stands off on Wednesday and Thursday has had his wating period. Therefore it is incorrect to say that the man who has worked two days, and then stands off four days that week does not get the benefit. I want to say this. My hon. Friend the Member opposite knows I am anxious to do whatever is possible within the four corners of the Act which I administer to make this reasonable, just and equitable—this continuity rule—to the men he so eloquently represents here. I undertake, if he will meet me, to go into the matter and see whether, so far as the Statute will allow me, I can make it as easy as possible. More than that I cannot do.
I have never in my life, Mr. Speaker, felt inclined so to risk your censure than I do now so that I might reply to the hon. Member (Sir G. Renwick) below the Gangway. I trust that in five minutes I would make him so ashamed of his speech that he would be glad to get out of the House. We have, however, got to deal with things that matter. The thing that matters is the Amendment that is now before us. I am very pleased to hear the explanation of the Labour Minister as to the waiting period. It is an entire revelation, I must confess, in the reading of the Act. I think it is a surprise packet to us as to the administration of the Act. Because, though I do not dispute the Minister of Labour at all, we have to go back to the cold letter of the Act as it is printed. We have certainly been under a misapprehension of the exact application of the Act. All I am prepared to say is, that if that liberal and generous interpretation of the waiting period is put into effect, and applied all round, not only to the dockers—those horrible fellows about whom we have heard to-night—it will be to every trade. It applies to the miners, to every section of the community and to every insured trade. If that is so, and I believe it is so, we will very quickly see that it is applied, and seeing it is coming into operation within a few days, we will make very careful inquiry so that the interpretation will widen very much the operation of the Act, and give us a good deal of benefit which we have considered we were deprived of by the wording of the Act. One Amendment, however, down to-night is on the question of the exemption of the 2d. contribution. I am not so much concerned about that as I am about the payment of the benefit, because the two Acts, as I understand, and as has been clearly explained by the Minister of Labour, are in conjunction with each other, so that a man has to be in benefit under the Insurance Act to get what we call the supplementary benefit. If this waiting period deprives a man from benefit for one week or for any period of time it not only deprives him of the 15s. towards which he has paid, but it deprives him of all the benefits of the supplementary Acts. Bang goes the 15s. and the other 5s. and all the other benefits under the Amendment to-night, and the whole thing is bust up. It is like a small balloon exploded, because if the waiting period applies in the way we have always understood it applies, and the man is disqualified after the first day, he is out of benefit during the waiting period and of all supplementary benefits. A man under these conditions has all these burdens imposed upon him without any benefit at all. It is a hardship to deprive a man in the waiting period of the 15s., but it is hardship still to deprive him, for no fault of his own, of the benefit which he believes is coming to his wife and children.
Whichever way you look at it we have to realise that although some of us have tried to explain the actual working of this provisional and temporary Act, yet the general impression abroad is that this is something separate, distinct and apart from the ordinary Insurance Act, and it will be a rude awakening to thousands of men and women and homes in this country when they find that the man who is willing to work and seeks work, and through conditions which apply to his trade is unable to work the necessary time he has lost his benefit, and, instead of receiving 24s. or 26s., he finds it has all been wiped out and there is nothing coming in. If you get the benefit proposed, it will not be worth having under the conditions you are applying, because this supplementary benefit depends upon the 1921 Act. Without the one the other is not worth bothering about. I am sorry I have wasted the time of the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—I am glad I have said something at last of which hon. Members opposite approve. There is no value in what has been proposed, but the greater benefit we have got out of this discussion is the interpretation of the Act which has been given by the Minister of Labour.
May I withdraw my Amendment in view of the definite and specific statement of the right hon. Gentleman that the cases I mentioned are covered by the Act.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment proposed: At the end of Sub-section (1) to insert the words
"Provided that any employed person whose wages for any one week do not exceed thirty shillings shall be exempt from payment of contribution in respect of that week."—[ Mr. Sexton .]
The Minister of Labour has indicated that apart from the merits of the case, even if he felt disposed to accept the Amendment, it would in practice be very difficult to differentiate along the lines of the Amendment. But would it not be possible for the employer himself—who knows whether the employé has a wage of less than 30s. a week—to put a stamp on of something less than the value of 2d. to indicate that the wage is
below the 30s.? Surely that is possible and easily practicable. The statement made by the Minister raises the whole question of the seriousness of relief to those who are unemployed at the present time. In the mining industry—and no one should know it better than the right hon. Gentleman—unemployment is more rampant to-day than it has ever been probably since 1884. A return has been sent from the executive of the Miners' Federation showing that 23 per cent. or 24 per cent. of the whole of the mining community are now unemployed and 70 per cent. are under-employed. Serious statements have been made too about the weaving trade. I should like to inform the House that in some mining districts at the present time, owing to the rapid decline in the wage, some of the men's wages are right down to rock-bottom and cannot be further reduced. In South Wales, in the largest coalfield, where 50,000 miners are under-employed, the great majority have had their wages reduced to 0·9 per cent. from rock-bottom, and they have fallen 100 per cent. on the basis wage since the men returned to work. The men are no better off than they were in 1914; indeed, the reverse is the case, because the cost of living is 110 per cent. higher than it was in 1914. Further than that 75 per cent. of the men are on short time, and unless the Amendment is accepted it is to be feared that many of them will not be in a position to pay the extra 2d. per week. We have had a rule regarding the two days, and all men belonging to my association who made two days or less have been exempt from paying the special levy which we have been collecting to aid the unemployed. If the right hon. Gentlemen could accept this Amendment it would give some little relief. The conditions are so bad that the further burden which is being imposed on the workers will, as has been said, be one of the last straws which will make the burden almost intolerable.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 56; Noes, 144.
Division No. 365.] AYES. [11.27 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Bromfield, William Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Barker, G (Monmouth, Abertillery) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) Cairns, John Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Barton, Sir William (Oldham) Cape, Thomas Davies, John (Lancs, Westhoughton) Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Casey, T. W. Finney, Samuel Gillis, William Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Glanville, Harold James Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Mills, John Edmund Waterson, A. E. Grundy, T. W. Myers, Thomas Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) O'Grady, James White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Halls, Walter Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Hartshorn, Vernon Rose, Frank H. Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) Hayday, Arthur Royce, William Stapleton Wilson, James (Dudley) Hayward, Evan Sexton, James Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Hirst, G. H. Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Hogge, James Myles Sitch, Charles H. John, William (Rhondda, West) Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Spencer, George A. Mr. Thomas Griffiths and Mr. Frederick Hall. Lunn, William Swan, J. E.
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Ganzoni, Sir John Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Armitage, Robert Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Armstrong, Henry Bruce Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Baird, Sir John Lawrence Gould, James C. Parker, James Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Balfour, George (Hampstead) Gregory, Holman Perkins, Walter Frank Barnett, Major Richard W. Gretton, Colonel John Pickering, Colonel Emil W. Barnston, Major Harry Hailwood, Augustine Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Pratt, John William Betterton, Henry B. Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N. Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Henderson, Lt.-Col. V. L. (Tradeston) Reid, D. D. Blades, Sir George Rowland Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Remer, J. R. Borwick, Major G. O. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Renwick, Sir George Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Breese, Major Charles E. Hinds, John Robinson, Sir T (Lancs., Stretford) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Brown, Major D. C. Hopkins, John W. W. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Brown, T. W. (Down, North) Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Howard, Major S. G. Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G. Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Burgoyne, Lt.-Col. Alan Hughes Hurd, Percy A. Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Carr, W. Theodore Jodrell, Neville Paul Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Johnson, Sir Stanley Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Strauss, Edward Anthony Chichester, Col. Robert Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Sturrock, J. Leng Churchman, Sir Arthur Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Sugden, W. H. Clough, Sir Robert King, Captain Henry Douglas Sutherland, Sir William Cobb, Sir Cyril Lane-Fox, G. R. Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham) Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Lloyd, George Butler Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Conway, Sir W. Martin Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. Thorpe, Captain John Henry Cope, Major William Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Tryon, Major George Clement Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Lorden, John William Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Lort-Williams, J. Waring, Major Walter Dawson, Sir Philip Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith) Watson, Captain John Bertrand Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry M'Connell, Thomas Edward White, Col. G. D. (Southport) Edgar, Clifford B. McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester) Williams, C. (Tavistock) Edge, Captain William Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H. Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Macquisten, F. A. Wise, Frederick Evans, Ernest Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Worsfold, T. Cato FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A. Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Young, E. H. (Norwich) Ford, Patrick Johnston Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh) Younger, Sir George Fraser, Major Sir Keith Murray, John (Leeds, West) Frece, Sir Walter de Nall, Major Joseph TELLERS FOR THE NOES .—.— Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Neal, Arthur Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "requires" ["as the case requires"], to insert the words
"(subject as respects contributions payable in respect of persons insured under special schemes to such modifications as the Minister of Labour may direct)."
This has reference to the administration of the funds of persons who are members of the special scheme. They have been quite willing to stand in for the sake of the others and pay their contributions. They have not got the power, and I do not think it is at all necessary to bring all this new machinery into existence for the sake of six months, and if I had authority to apply it in such a way as would be most expedient and simple and would meet their wishes I would do so. I ask here that I may have that authority to modify the applications of the fund for collection of contributions to those in this special scheme. I am advised that they are satisfied with the arrangement that has been suggested for the payment of contributions.
Amendment agreed to.
The next Amendment to Clause 2 I do not propose to call. The Amendments to Clause 6 are all out of order because they impose a charge on the rates. The same applies to the Amendment to Clause 9.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
I desire to express the disappointment of the party with which I am associated at what we still consider to be a very small contribution to a great necessity. We are opposed to the method by which the Government intends to deal with this side of the unemployment question. We look upon the unemployment as a direct result of the War, aggravated by lack of foresight on the part of the Government in its foreign policy, and due to no fault of the unemployed. We object to what is a purely national calamity, aggravated by Government neglect, and, if one may say so, in some respects, incompetence, being dealt with in a piece-meal fashion at the expense largely of the people who are least easily able to bear the burden. We say that the principle is bad, because it places the burden of responsibility for what is going to be done on the shoulders of one section of the community, because it leaves out of account many millions of workers who are not covered by the insurance scheme, and who ought to receive the advantage, and leaves out of account for paying purposes people who really ought to be made to bear their share of the burden which this scheme will entail upon the country. By this method of dealing with the question, unemployment will now largely become a matter for the Poor Law authorities, and the districts in which unemployment is greatest, where the necessities of the people are greatest, and where the burdens are almost intolerable, will be worst hit by the Government's method. For these reasons we are opposed to the principle of the Bill. We object to a method which will place hundreds of thousands of honest workers on the poor rates and compel them to ask for relief. No one except the man who has lived with the workers knows the hatred they have of the thought of Poor Law relief. Nine-tenths of them will starve before they will apply for things that are connected with what is generally known as the parish. Once an honest workman has applied to the parish for relief, generally speaking, that man's sense of self-respect is dead. We all know that that is the case, and yet that is precisely what is taking place as a result of this piecemeal, insufficient way of dealing with the problem of unemployment. It leaves out of account people who ought to come into it, it leaves out those who ought to contribute, it makes a local charge for meeting a national necessity, and it places the burden on the wrong shoulders.
We object also to the sums to be paid. We say that they mean, in the vast majority of cases, nothing more or less than under feeding. There is no economy in under feeding, and the Government which has been scared out of its life by an economy campaign which means simply "do nothing at all," cannot be expected to deal in a reasonable way with a problem of this magnitude. It is far truer to deal with the problem in such a way that at any rate reasonable food, clothing, and housing can be guaranteed to unemployed workers. No one has dared to attempt to prove that these proposals will in any way meet the case. We all remember what was said to us about the A.1 and the C.3 nation. Some of us believed that those things were meant in good faith. Some of us told our people that they were. We believed the words of those who said that after the War their first concern would be that the workers should have reasonable decent conditions of living. And this is the result, so short a time after the War. This is the way the Government deal with this question. The Government know from the vital statistics collected during the War what the condition of the workers was before the War. From every recruiting area in the country, from every region in the National Service Institution where statistics were collected, the same tale was told. The Cabinet Minister then responsible for the collection of these statistics, in my hearing told an audience that the working people of this country, so far as their general health was concerned were in so miserable a condition that only one man of military age out of every six of the working-class population of Lancashire was fit for military service. In several of the Midland counties the same story was revealed by the examination of the doctors of the Army and the Navy. The men in responsible positions who knew what this meant from a scientific point of view, stated that these men were in this condition because they had never had a chance, and never had had the food, clothing, and shelter which they required.
We were told then that when the War was over all these things would be remedied, and that the workers would come into their own. We now see what all these fine promises meant. The workers feel that they have been duped, and that this miserable attempt to patch up the problem is a disgrace to the Government which gave the pledges to the people that this Government gave. But here is the difficulty in which we find ourselves on these Benches. We detest the principle of this Bill. We are indignant at the proposals which it contains, but we cannot vote against it because, knowing the necessities of the case and the needs of the people, we cannot vote against even the least that they can get, but we do want to register again our emphatic protest against making a national matter into a local matter. We object to the demand for payment from those least able to pay. The trouble ought to be dealt with nationally. We object to the insufficiency of the sums allowed.
We expected that the Government would take a longer, larger, broader, and more generous view of the necessities of the case. If the Government have determined that £1,000,000 or £2,000,000 or even £4,000,000 shall stand in the way of reasonable treatment of the unemployed, then the Government must take the responsibility. Some of us who, all along, have worked for peace and quietness, who have believed it was possible to bring about a better feeling in the country and to bring employers and workers together in a bond of unity for development, have come to the conclusion that those things are no good. The only thing that will appeal to the Government is, that the people themselves should rise and demand better treatment, whatever that demand may lead to. Whilst we feel so strongly on these matters, whilst we feel so strongly that the Bill is wrong, whilst we feel so strongly that the methods adopted are bad, we must say to the Minister in charge—at any rate, I say to him in my own name—that, at any rate, we appreciate his courtesy. We have not received much at his hands, but perhaps in future, when this scare of economy is passed, when the Government have regained more courage, when certain newspapers have less power, when, above all, the people demand it, we shall find my right hon. Friend coming forward with better, wider, nobler, and more generous proposals for dealing with this problem.
Speaking for those who act with me, I should like to associate myself with the criticism of the miserable inadequacy of this Bill to deal with unemployment. There are four points I wish to make briefly to bear out that argument. The first point has been put more than once in the Debate with a certain amount of force, and that is that this breakdown is the real essence of any national insurance scheme. It is a great mistake to impose on the national scheme of insurance against unemployment a burden at this moment. If I recollect aright the phrase used by an hon. Friend behind me, he said that you were putting a house which was on fire on a fire insurance scheme. That is really what the Government are attempting to do. We remember a phrase of the Prime Minister in his old Radical days, about robbing the hen roost. The Government have already robbed the National Health Insurance scheme of all its reserves, built up by the contributors to the scheme, and they are now imposing on those contributors this additional burden. The second point is that this Bill does not help at all the bonâ-fide worker to tide over his emergency without resource to the board of guardians. That is an extremely important point. The idea that an extra dole to the wife and to the children will meet the actual need of the genuine, bonâ-fide unemployed is absurd.
He is going, and must go, because be is compelled, to the guardians, and, therefore, in that respect, this is not a contribution of any substance to the genuine unemployed man. The third point is that the Bill does not give any adequate relief to the adready overburdened areas in the country. If you take, by this scheme of insurance, certain limited numbers of insured men out of the ambit of the boards of guardians, you only do it for a period, and you only do it for a small sum. In that sense you are not making any considerable contribution at all to the burden which will fall on areas which, in the last resort, must meet this difficulty, because, as the House knows, boards of guardians all over the country are themselves creating scales of payment for unemployment, and those scales are more generous than the scales proposed by the Government. This is because the boards of guardians understand the needs of the people much better than do the Government. That contribution is coming out of the rates, and it is coming unequally out of the rates, out of the pockets of the people who are least able to bear it. The people who are most able to bear it are not making their adequate contribution.
My fourth and last point is that this Measure is putting a burden on that section of the community which is already hit by wages which are gradually coming down and by prices which have not fallen. You are hitting the section of the community who are the least able to bear it. There, in four short points, is an analysis of the utter inadequacy of this Measure as a contribution to the present emergency. The Government, in my view, have done nothing but dress the window. No Government ever advertised their goods better than this Government; no Government ever had better commercial travellers. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour is the super-commercial traveller of the goods of this Government with regard to unemployment. As a matter of fact, not only this Bill, but all other Bills taken together are not going to meet this problem immediately. It is going to take a long time for the whole of them together to operate. In the meantime men, women, and children will be in need. It is all very well for the Government to parade all these Measures in the shop window. They are good enough in the shop window, but there is no stock behind them. For these reasons, although we cannot vote against any meagre contribution to the reduction of this great problem, we want to point out that the Government are sending up a great deal of smoke, but there is very little fire behind any of their proposals, and certainly very little behind this one.
I agree with all that was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw) in regard to this Bill, but there is one point with which I should like to deal that he did not mention, but which the last speaker alluded to slightly. This Bill is not only contemptuously niggardly in the benefits it gives, but it renders worse the position of the unemployed worker who is compelled to seek relief. I have been for many years a member of a board of guardians, and I know that some years ago an Act was passed enabling an applicant for outdoor relief to use the argument that he was a contributor to a friendly society or a trade union which would allow him superannuation, and thereby he could obtain more relief than the unthrifty person, who did not pay to such a society, to the extent of 10s. a week. Hundreds of such cases have been dealt with by boards of guardians. Yet this Bill, if it becomes an Act, will preclude the thrifty man from receiving even that little additional sustenance for himself and his family, towards the provision of which he has contributed. He cannot receive the benefit for which he has paid. It is a penalty on individual members of friendly societies, many thousands of whom will suffer as a result of the passing of this Bill.
Not only will this hardship apply in the case of unemployment benefit, but, naturally, boards of guardians, in every case which comes before them, will adopt the position that they must take into account all forms of income, whatever these may be. In Yorkshire we have 70,000 men in the mining industry, working short time—one, two, or three days in the week—and they are finding it difficult to exist at the present time. They will have to contribute to this fund. Then we have something like 20,000 men unemployed in the mining industry in the county. All these men will be worse off in a short time, when another 30 per cent. reduction in wages takes place. Many of these men send their children to school up to the age of 16, and I admit that one of the concessions made by the Minister in the course of this discussion has been to allow the paltry 1s. to children up to that age—even in defiance of the delightful anarchist who represents the City of London, and who opposes all legislation which is in the interests of the people.
He did not oppose that.
I respectfully suggest that he did. I may be wrong, but that is my interpretation of his attitude. At all events, I am pointing out that these men who are unemployed or partly employed to-day may have to apply to the guardians. Indeed, they are applying to the guardians at present, despite what some of my hon. Friends have said—with which I quite agree—as to their hatred of the Poor Law. They are bound to do so in order to exist and to see that their families are provided with bread and butter. They will be further handicapped by this Bill. I should have liked if the principle to which I alluded earlier, in relation to relief, had been retained in this Bill. It seems no difficulty, however, to this Government to repeal Acts of Parliament. It is a commonplace thing with them to pass an Act of Parliament in one week and seek to repeal it in the next. That will be a delightful lesson to the Labour Government when it comes into power, showing it that it may repeal such Acts of Parliament as that which gave away the common lands of the people. I hope when a Labour Government does come into power—and it will be at a very early date—it will not only take those lessons from the present Government, but that it will pass legislation more in the interests of the masses than this Bill.
12 M.
I regret somewhat that it was not possible for me to be present in the House when the Second Reading of this Bill was under consideration, because when the general proposals were being submitted, some two weeks ago, I specially raised the case of the agricultural worker, and asked for some further information as to what was being done for him, having regard to the fact that unemployment had penetrated our rural areas to some large degree. During some observations I made then, I rather challenged a statement that was made by the hon. and gallant Member for Ely (Captain Coote) that the Government had asked the agricultural worker to come within the Unemployment Insurance Act, and he had refused to do so. On the Second Reading, I noticed that the Minister of Labour rather sought to support the statement of the hon. and gallant Member. I want to emphasise here as strongly as I possibly can that, previously to the passing of the Act, the Government did not approach the agricultural worker to get his sanction, nor have they since the passing of the Act ever approached the agricultural worker to ascertain his views on the question of unemployment insurance, or as to whether or not he had any ideas applicable to his own position in this respect. The right hon. Gentleman quoted a Report issued by the Sub-committee of the Wages Board as rather pointing to the contrary, but this Committee, which was constituted under the Wages Board to deal with this question, was not appointed at the request or suggestion of the Government. It was brought into being on the Motion moved by the representatives of the workers on the Wages Board, in order to see whether or not it was possible at that time to do anything to help the rural worker so far as the problem of unemployment was concerned, and it was brought into being after the Unemployment Insurance Act was on the Statute Book, so that the agricultural worker could not have been approached previously.
The Report in question, in so far as it deals with the subject, states that there was no reliable information to give any general guidance upon this matter. The Committee sought assistance from the right hon. Gentleman's Department, and the Minister of Labour had absolutely no statistics whatever available to guide them on the question of some provision being made for the rural worker. We could not have a special scheme until we were within the general provisions of the Act, and I do not hesitate to say that, both on the part of labourers and employers, there was a hesitation, if not a definite opposition, to coming within the scheme of that Act. Why? Because they are a class of labour whose wages are the lowest, but, generally speaking, have a low incidence of unemployment, and because it is not fair to ask the lowest-paid section of the community to contribute towards the maintenance of a general fund, from which they could only draw a lower percentage of benefit than the average of other trades. But the right hon. Gentleman knows that I have on more than one occasion, when these questions have been before the House, asked him whether he could not do some- thing to deal with the question of unemployment in agriculture. The difficulty in agriculture is this. The problem is not common, as in most industries. In some parts of the country, where you have pasture lands, where milk production is the dominant factor, where the employment of men to the hundred acres is small, there is an absence, more or less, of unemployment; but when you get to the more arable centres of cultivation, men there have been discharged in very large numbers. It is because of the difficulties from that standpoint that we have not been able to come forward with any suggestion on our part, and not because we feel that the rural worker is not entitled to some consideration in this respect. I do not withdraw anything from the Report, to which I appended my name, but I agree that we felt that the general Act was not applicable to the rural worker, and that there was not sufficient data to enable us to prepare a scheme. That, however, does not alter the fact that the Government have never asked the agricultural worker what his wishes are in this particular respect, and have not sought consultation with him in any way.
While endorsing all that my hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw) has said with regard to the general pro visions of this Bill, I want to go further, and say that it leaves the rural worker practically untouched in regard to this problem. Afforestation has been mentioned. What scope for that is there in areas where unemployment is most rife in agriculture? Take the Eastern counties. You are not going to develop schemes of afforestation in those arable lands. There is no scope. The probability is that—
That is beyond the scope of the discussion on the Third Reading of this Bill. That might be raised on the Estimates, but not here. The hon. Member cannot now go over the whole ground.
I am sorry if I have in any way transgressed, but I thought it was in order on Third Reading to point out where the Bill failed to meet the purpose at which it was aimed, and that as this Bill dealt with the problem of unemployment, I could point out that neither in its general provisions, nor in any other provisions, has the position of the rural worker been met, and I very much regret that the right hon. Gentleman has not seen fit to take some steps to ascertain the exact position in regard to agriculture in districts where large numbers of men are out of work. I quoted a case when I was speaking last time where in one village 19 men were unemployed during harvest—an unprecedented condition of things in agriculture for, I should think, the past 70 years, and that is but an indication of a general condition which obtains in many areas. It is not common or general throughout the country, but it exists in certain areas where there is arable more than pasture land, and I do hope that we shall have some indication that the right hon. Gentleman will recognise the importance of this question from the point of view of the rural worker, and see whether some means cannot be found whereby provision can be made for him in times of stress as well as for workers in other industries.
I quite agree with the general case made as to the inadequacy of this Bill. It is more than inadequate so far as the requirements of those out of work are concerned; it is entirely inadequate so far as the needs of the real workers are concerned.
I need only deal very briefly with the last stage of this little Bill. But I want again to emphasise the point I have made—that it is one feature of the many-sided endeavour to deal with the present position. My hon. Friends opposite have complained of its inadequacy. I am entitled to put my side of the Bill. My hon. Friends have said that in their opinion the help is not enough. But they and others will, I think, appreciate it as far as it goes, for I believe it will bring some little measure of relief to hundreds and thousands of women and children during the cold, cheerless days that are before us. I only want to make two points. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chelsea, on the Second Reading, suggested that the need for co-ordination of the local effort was rendered more urgent by this Bill, and by several other features of the Government policy. That is quite true. In our endeavour to find a remedy, and a palliative of the present distressing problem, we have put forward a number of schemes—for the development of trade, for relief work, and direct financial assistance. It is essential for the avoidance of overlapping that those who have the disposition and direction of these things in the localities should each know what the other is doing. I therefore propose to ask the local employment committees to invite all the public authorities in the locality who find work or relief to send representatives, who may be co-opted on their membership, so that wherever there is work—which we hope there will be as a result of the several schemes—that that fact may be brought to the notice of the people themselves. Because I entirely agree with what has been said many times that what the unemployed person wants is work and not doles. I hope that those who have schemes in hand will get on with them. As to the second point, I am arranging for the most complete liaison between those who are operating the relief schemes and myself. Another—and the best—thing. Employers of labour, if and when trade begins to look up, can help us enormously if they would send to the Employment Exchanges a list of their vacancies. Then we could put the man in want of a job into direct contact with the employer who has the job, and that will assist in the better administration of the Unemployment Insurance Act, and the rule as to whether or not the man observes the Section as to suitable employment. As I have previously said, it would be an enormous advantage if and when things improve, those who have vacancies should notify the Exchanges, and so help us so far as is humanly possible to meet the situation. I thank the House for the consideration which it has given to this Measure. Notwithstanding the severe criticism of the hon. Member for Preston, he knows as well as I do that, so far as it goes, it will be a real relief to women and children.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed .
It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Tuesday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Sixteen Minutes after Twelve o'clock.