House of Commons
Wednesday, February 28, 1923
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Proletarian Sunday Schools
I beg to present a petition from certain inhabitants of the Isle of Wight against the teaching in proletarian Sunday schools, and the menace to the democratic constitution of our country.
Private Business
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 1) BILL,
"to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Minister of Transport under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, relating to Poole Harbour," presented by Colonel ASHLEY; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 36.]
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Landsmandes Bank, Denmark
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any particulars have been published in regard to the Parliamentary inquiry in Denmark into the failure of the Landsmandes Bank?
So far as I am aware, no particulars have been published.
Will my hon. Friend endeavour to get particulars from the British Embassy, or inquire whether they know anything about the matter?
I will inquire.
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that among the assets of the Landsmandes Bank in Denmark is a claim for a large loan made during the War to a British official, and whether full particulars will be asked for in regard to this alleged transaction?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the negative. If my hon. and gallant Friend will furnish me with further details, I shall be happy to make inquiries.
United States Consulate, Newcastle-On-Tyne
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the United States Government have been furnished with the full details of information upon which this Government acted in closing the United States consulate at Newcastle-upon-Tyne; if not, will he now supply the same; and whether he has requested the United States Government to furnish the Foreign Office with the information upon which they, after separate and distinct investigations by United States officials in this country, have formed the judgment that their ex-Consul and Vice-Consul at Newcastle were both innocent of the charges preferred against them?
The principal evidence on which His Majesty's Government relied was communicated to the United States Government on the 28th August last. The names of the persons furnishing this evidence were withheld at their request, but the United States Government were informed that His Majesty's Government were satisfied of their good faith and reliability. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment this day week.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this matter has been in abeyance for several months, causing great inconvenience and loss, and as it has reached a deadlock will he take some steps to relieve that condition?
I am aware of all the circumstances which my hon. Friend mentions, and I think I have communicated to him the difficulty of taking any further steps.
Egypt (Assassination of Beitish Officials)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state the number of political murders and assassinations of British officials and subjects which have taken place in Egypt since that country became an independent sovereign State; the number of cases in which the assassins have been brought to justice; and what steps His Majesty's Government proposes to take to ensure that the onus of preserving law and order and protecting British nationals in Egypt should rest on the Egyptian Government and not on the British taxpayer?
Since 28th February, 1922, seven attempts have been made on the lives of British subjects in Cairo resulting in the death of two persons and the wounding of six other's. One attempt proved abortive. In no case have the criminals been brought to justice. His Majesty's Government await the enactment of an indemnity law which is a necessary step towards the withdrawal of martial law, when the sole responsibility for maintaining law and order in Egypt will rest with the Egyptian Government.
Does the figure given include the latest outrages reported in the Press?
No, it does not include those. I have not official information of them as yet.
Has there ever dawned on the Government the advisability of leaving Egypt to the Egyptians?
Mexico
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the report made by His Majesty's Consul-General at Mexico City that the trading situation is extremely unsatisfactory, representations could be made to the Mexican Govern- ment drawing its attention to the restrictive effect on trade of the present uncertainty regarding Mexico's fiscal policy?
I have examined the report, dated September, 1922, to which I presume the hon. Member refers. I regret that the causes of the unsatisfactory trading situation therein disclosed are not such as can be remedied by means of representations.
Peace Treaties
France and Ruhr District
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that a large quantity of goods despatched from Dortmund and Duisberg for England has been stopped and detained by order of the French Government, and that English firms are likely to sustain loss and also the English revenue; and whether representations are being made on this subject?
I am unaware of the precise consignment to which the hon. Members refers, but all cases which have been brought to the notice of His Majesty's Government of the alleged detention of British-owned goods by the French authorities are investigated by the British authorities in the Rhineland with a view to such action as may be possible to safeguard the interests of the British firms concerned. I may add that the French authorities have shown a desire to avoid hampering British trade, and to give favourable consideration to such cases of hardship as have arisen.
Is it not the fact that these goods are held, and have since been returned by the French Government to the consignors with the view of collecting 10 per cent. duty, and, if so, and if the British firm, for their own protection, are prepared to pay the 10 per cent. and collect it hereafter from the Germans, cannot arrangements be made by the British Government with the French Government?
I have already told the hon. Member that all the circumstances in each case are being inquired into by the British authorities on the spot, and they will make such arrangements as are possible in the interests of British trade.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Rhineland High Commission has given notice to all German Customs officials in the occupied area; whether this includes the zone now occupied by British troops; and, if so, whether this has been done with the consent of the British representative?
Notice has been given to all German Customs officials in the occupied territory; including the British zone. The British representative on the Inter-Allied Rhineland High Commission abstained from voting on this decision when the matter was discussed by the High Commission. In the British zone the German officials still continue to function.
Are we to understand that regulations and ordinances passed by the High Commission affect the British zone, although they are passed with the object of helping the French advance into the Ruhr?
I must ask for notice of that question.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state how many newspapers have been suppressed in the Ruhr district by order of the Inter-Allied Rhineland High Commission?
I regret that I have not the necessary information at my disposal.
asked how many officials of the German Government have been expelled from the Ruhr district by order of the Inter-Allied Rhineland High Commission; and in how many cases their wives and children have also been expelled?
His Majesty's Government are aware that a number of German officials, in many cases with their families, have been expelled from the Ruhr district. Such explusions have been carried out not by order of the Inter-Allied Rhineland High Commission, but by order of the French and Belgian military authorities in the Ruhr. No information is available as to the exact number of such expulsions.
further asked whether British officials participate in the work of granting export permits to persons desiring to export goods from the area occupied under the Treaty of Versailles or from the Ruhr district?
In the area occupied under the Treaty of Versailles, British officials have participated in the work of granting licences since April, 1921, and are continuing to do so. As regards the Ruhr district, British officials take no part in the grant of licences or permits.
Has the hon. Gentleman's attention been called to a semiofficial statement of the French Government, that a decision taken by the Inter-Allied High Commission which prohibits the despatch to unoccupied Germany of any goods from the Rhineland territory, completes the measures adopted for the Ruhr by the French and Belgium Governments?
I do not think that I have seen officially that communication. Perhaps the hon. Member will put a question on the Paper about it.
asked the Prime Minister whether, apart from any specific offer with regard to reparations, the German Government have made any general proposal to His Majesty's Government with the object of putting an end to the present serious deadlock in the Ruhr?
The answer is in the negative.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the damage done to British interests by the French occupation of the Ruhr, the British Government will invite the French and German Governments to formulate proposals for the settlement of the reparations question?
I would refer my Noble Friend to the views which I expressed in my speech in this House on the 19th February on the inadvisability of intervention by His Majesty's Government at the present stage, to which I have nothing to add.
Can the Prime Minister make any statement as to the railway accident at Duren, and can he say what force at present occupies that area?
I have no further information beyond what has appeared in the Press. Duren is in the French zone of occupation.
International Labour Conventions
asked the Minister of Labour whether the present Government have taken the advice of their Law Officers on the question whether the Government of the day or Parliament are the competent authority under Part 13 of the Peace Treaty for deciding whether a country ratifies the decisions of the International Labour Conference; and what interpretation has been placed upon the term by other countries who have adhered to the Peace Treaty?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the second part, statements have appeared in the publications of the International Labour Office which indicate that there is no uniform interpretation of the term "competent authority." The interpretation appears to be governed in each case by the requirements of the national constitution.
asked the Minister of Labour how many countries and what countries who have adhered to the Peace Treaty have adopted the Washington Eight-hours' Convention?
Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Greece, India and Roumania have ratified the Convention in question, but I am not in a position to state whether in all cases the necessary municipal legislation has yet been adopted to give effect to its provisions. In the case of Greece and Roumania, the application of the Convention may, according to its provisions, be deferred until the 1st July, 1923, and 1st July, 1924, respectively. Bulgaria's ratification is also conditional, and in the case of British India the principle of a 60-hour week was expressly allowed by the Convention itself.
May I ask why the Government does not follow the example of Czecho-Slovakia?
That has been the subject of debate in this House on previous occasions, and I would refer the hon. Member to those Debates.
Will the Government give another opportunity to this House to discuss the question?
British Claims (Germany)
asked the Prime Minister how many memorials have been presented to the Anglo-German Mixed Arbitral Tribunal; in how many cases decisions, other than of a formal nature, have been given; for how many days the tribunal sat during the last six months of 1922 and for approximately what number of hours; whether his attention has been drawn to the growing dissatisfaction felt by the business community at the slow progress made by the tribunal with cases pending before it, and the consequent losses inflicted by the delay on British nationals; and whether he will give the matter his personal consideration with a view to expediting the decisions of the tribunal?
As the answer is rather long, I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Arising out of that answer, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman—
Out of nothing, nothing can arise.
Following is the reply:
I am informed that the number of cases and memorials lodged with the Anglo-German Mixed Arbitral Tribunal to date is 1,726, and decisions, other than formal registered judgments, have been delivered by them in 87 cases. In addition, 199 cases have been withdrawn or settled by agreement. During the six months ending 31st December, 1922, which included the period of the Long Vacation, the tribunal sat in Court to try cases on 26 days and on three days to deliver judgments. In addition, the tribunal sat in private for discussion of decisions, questions of procedure and other interlocutory matters on some 30 days. The normal hours of the tribunal are from 10.30 a.m. to 5 p.m., but these are frequently exceeded. I am aware of the dissatisfaction referred to in the latter part of the question, but the fact is, I think, overlooked, that the work entrusted to the tribunal is of an onerous and exacting nature, and owing to the magnitude of the interests involved and to the fact that there is no appeal from their decision, it is incumbent upon them to exercise the greatest care in arriving at their decisions. I may add that the desirability of appointing additional divisions of the tribunal with a view to expediting the hearing of cases is now under consideration.
German Reparation
asked the Prime Minister if he will lay upon the Table of the House the terms of the Allied Note to Germany, dated Paris, 29th January, 1921, and signed by the right hon. the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) on behalf of Great Britain, in which the Allied Powers fixed the reparations bill payable by Germany at £11,300,000 gold, the payments to cover a period of 42 years as from 1st May, 1921, payable in two instalments of £100,000,000, three of £150,000,000, three of £200,000,000, three of £250,000,000, and 31 of £300,000,000?
On the 10th March, 1921, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer stated in reply to a question that the terms of the Allied Note referred to had been published in the Press and that he thought that in these circumstances the issue of a White Paper was unnecessary. I see no reason to reconsider the matter now.
May I ask whether, as a matter of fact, a bill for reparations of that amount was presented to the German Government in January, 1921?
I understand so.
Is the Prime Minister aware that the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs stated in this House, in the course of the last Debate, that no such bill was ever presented? Was not the Prime Minister present and heard that statement?
I am not prepared to charge my memory with statements made by the right hon. Member.
I am not quite clear as to whether or not this is a point of Order, but may I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether, in view of the Prime Minister's statement, which, of course, we all know to be true, it is possible for this House to have an opportunity of expressing its disapproval of the statement, diametrically opposed to the statement just made by the Prime Minister, by the late holder of the highest office under the British Crown on a matter of vital national importance?
I wish to be under no misapprehension. I said I understood the matter was so, but I have not looked specially into it.
Does the right hon. Gentleman consider himself capable of misrepresenting—[An HON. MEMBER: "Sit down!"]
Hon. Members come here for the purpose of cross-examining and criticising the present Ministry. If we were to go to ex-Ministers, we might have to go all round the House.
On a matter of this importance, will not the Prime Minister get us the accurate information whether the facts are as stated in the question? He says he believes it is so, but we want to know whether it was actually so, that this bill was presented to Germany?
If the hon. Member will put a question on the Paper to me, I will answer it.
Questions
France (Property Licences)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if his attention has been called to a Bill passed in the French Chamber of Deputies on 6th November last, by which foreigners are not allowed to own real estate in France, Algeria, and the French Colonies, excepting on lease by licence; and, if so, what steps have been taken by the Secretary of State to call the attention of the French Government to the fact that if this Bill passes through the Senate it will create a breach of the Anglo-French Treaty of 1862?
His Majesty's Ambassador at Paris has addressed a Note on this subject to the French Government, who have promised to bring his observations and suggestions to the notice of the various Committees of the French Senate before which the Bill will come. The Anglo-French Convention of 1862 has no bearing on the holding of real estate in France and Algeria by British subjects. The hon. Member is perhaps referring to the Anglo-French Convention of 1882, which, however, only grants most-favoured nation treatment in this matter to British subjects. The Bill now before the Senate, if passed, will therefore not be a breach of either the 1862 or the 1882 Convention.
Kelantan
8, 9 and 10.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) whether the rights of suzerainty, protection, administration, and control over the State of Kelantan, which Siam transferred to Great Britain under the Anglo-Siamese Treaty of 1909, are still in existence and vested in Great Britain, except so far as the same may be modified by the Agreement of 1910 between the High Commissioner for the Malay States and the Rajah of Kelantan, and the letters patent of 1911 recognising the Rajah of Kelantan as Sultan and Sovereign of the State of Kelantan; if not, to what extent, and by what means, have such rights been extinguished;
(2) whether the sovereignty of the State of Kelantan is subject to, and limited by, the rights transferred to Great Britain by the Anglo-Siamese Treaty of 1909, or any of them, and by the Agreement of 1910 between the High Commissioner for the Malay States and the Rajah of Kelantan, or otherwise;
(3) whether, in view of the limitations to the sovereignty of the State of Kelantan, His Majesty's Government recognise the State of Kelantan as an independent sovereign State; and, if not, to what extent and for what purposes is the State of Kelantan not independent?
His Majesty's Government do not regard the Treaty and Agreement referred to, which are still in force, as derogating from the sovereignty of the Sultan of Kelantan, and His Majesty's Government recognise the State of Kelantan as an independent sovereign State.
Government Departments
Admiralty
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many of the officials of all grades in all Departments of the Admiralty are in receipt of pensions in addition to pay; and will he be prepared to grant a Return showing the names and amount of pensions and pay drawn in such cases?
To obtain the information asked for would involve an expenditure of time which I am afraid it would be difficult to justify. I trust, therefore, that my hon. and gallant Friend will regard as sufficient the information given in Appendix 6 of the Navy Estimates about which I will, with his permission, circulate some explanatory notes in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
In view of the fact that there is a great number of these pensioned men still being kept on at ordinary pay, will the hon. and gallant Gentleman, having regard to the large number of officers unemployed, see what he can do to end this system of double pay?
Up to date a pension has been no disqualification for ordinary service.
Of course, it is not, but surely double pay, when there is so much unemployment, is a justification for stopping the system.
Following is the information promised:
Appendix 6 sets out in considerable detail those members of the Admiralty staff who are paid out of salary subheads and are also in receipt of remuneration in addition to their pay. It does not, however, include pensions of less than £50 a year, nor does it take into account wounds or disability pensions paid by the Ministry of Pensions, &c. The number of officials included in the list with pensions as seamen and marines is approximately 400.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Admiralty staff at Whitehall is any larger than it was at the outbreak of War; if so, why; and, if not, whether he could dispense with the unsightly huts now situated on the roof of the Admiralty arch and of the Admiralty buildings?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, but my hon. and gallant Friend may be assured that the numbers of the staff are being reduced as rapidly as the completion of the extra work resulting from the war allows. Arrangements are now being devised for the disposal of the staff occupying the temporary rooms on the roof of the Whitehall buildings, with a view to their early demolition.
Royal Navy
Contracts
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, under the coming Admiralty Estimates, any contracts not hitherto awarded for naval construction will be placed after authority for the expenditure has been voted by the House of Commons; and whether, if this is so, he will expedite the consideration of the Naval Estimates so as to give employment in those districts where it is most urgently needed?
No contracts for naval construction are placed prior to the consideration of Navy Estimates by Parliament. The forthcoming Navy Estimates will be introduced next month on the earliest possible day.
Coastguard Service
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that, owing to the drastic reduction in the coastguard service there will be no chance of promotion to chief officer for some time to come; and, that being so, can he see his way to allow petty officers, passed and recommended for chief officer, to serve on till the age of 55 years, seeing that if a petty officer fails to get promotion before his fiftieth year he has to retire, and in this way compensate the petty officer who does not reach the rank of chief?
I am afraid that the reduction of the establishment numbers must for some time to come have an adverse effect on promotion, but the remedy proposed would cause a block in advancement from coastguard to petty officer.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the future of the coastguard service has yet been decided; and how the matter now stands?
It has now been decided that the coastguard, apart from the very small portion of the force which carries out naval duties, shall be re-constituted as the coast watching service and removed from Admiralty administration and placed under that of the Board of Trade. The change will take effect on the 1st April next, or us shortly after that date as is possible.
Will the right hon. Gentleman indicate what will be the total reduction in numbers of the coastguard service?
As far as men are concerned, the reduction will be from 1,150 to under 70. They will have to be kept under Vote A for the present.
Engine-Room Artificers (Reductions)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that a large number of engine-room artificers, fifth class, who have been training in His Majesty's Ship "Fisgard" at Portsmouth for 4½ years, have been served with one month's notice to leave; whether he can state the approximate cost to public funds of their training; and whether these young men, whose career is thus cut short, will receive any, and what, compensation?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As this question was not put down till yesterday it has not been possible in the time to prepare an estimate of cost of the training of these ratings. Each man will receive a bonus of £20 as compensation.
If it was only put down yesterday how does it come to appear on the Paper to-day?
It was only received yesterday.
New Battleships
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many men are now employed upon the two new battleships authorised by Parliament, and how many, so far as can be stated, on contract work for these vessels; and whether these numbers are as great as he anticipated at the time that the vessels were authorised?
It is not possible, without a large amount of investigation which would take a considerable time, to obtain definite figures as to the numbers employed, but it is estimated that about 3,000 men are now employed on these contracts. This number is not so large as was anticipated, but it is increasing daily, and should soon work up to the figure already announced, namely, 4,000 to 5,000.
Has any delay taken place in connection with the battleship which is to be constructed on the North-East Coast; and is the hon. Gentleman aware that at the present time the idea prevails that the starting of the work is being delayed?
No, Sir. There is no delay. The numbers employed are not as large as we thought and hoped they would be, because the firms involved want to finish off some mercantile ship orders which they have, and there has been some difficulty in obtaining the special material required.
Is it not a fact that pattern makers, who do not need special material, and who get to work first, have not yet been started even to make the patterns for the engines?
The hon. Member had better put that question down.
Accommodation
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if the committee recently appointed to consider the general question of accommodation in His Majesty's ships will report in time for their recommendations to be embodied in the plans of the two capital ships now building; and if the committee is also empowered to report on the state and inadequacy of the sanitary and other arrangements in naval barracks?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The answer to the second part is in the negative. These matters have been under consideration by another committee whose recommendations are being given effect to from time to time.
Officers (Marriage Allowances)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he can make any statement as to the payment of marriage allowances in the coming financial year?
It is presumed that my hon. and gallant Friend refers to marriage allowance for naval officers. I regret that it has not been found possible to make provision for payment of this allowance in the coming financial year.
Contributory Pensions
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if the scheme of contributory pensions for widows and children now being considered by the Admiralty is to be worked in conjunction with the Army and Air Force or to be confined to the Royal Navy?
I am afraid I can add nothing at the present time to my reply of the 21st February.
The hon. Gentleman told me the other day that the scheme is being considered—can he say if it is being considered with the Army and Air Force, or separately as regards the Navy?
The answer which I gave to my hon. and gallant Friend on 21st February was that the question was being dealt with as rapidly as circumstances permitted and that I was not in a position to make any statement on the matter then—and I am afraid I am not in a position to do so now.
Depth Charge (Invention Awards)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any awards were made by the Admiralty in connection with the invention of the depth charge prior to the setting up of the Claims Commission or prior to those awarded in Paper 1782 of 1922 to Commander Teasdale Buckell and Mr. H. J. Taylor?
No, Sir.
Fair Wages Clause
asked the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the fact that Messrs. C. Burley, Limited, brick and Portland cement manufacturers, and also Messrs. Smeed, Dean, and Company, Limited, cement and brick manufacturers, both of Sittingbourne, Kent, are not paying the rates of wages and overtime conditions agreed upon by the National Joint Industrial Council for the Cement Industry; and, having regard to the fact that the firms named are Government contractors, will steps be taken to remove them from the list under the terms of the Fair Wages Clause of 1906?
A complaint was received relative to the matter referred to in the first part of the hon. Member's question. The complaint was investigated in June last, in conjunction with the War Office, and it was found that the rates of wages paid by the firms in question did not contravene the Fair Wages Clause in the Admiralty contracts.
Unemployment
Building Trade
asked the Minister of Labour the total number of unemployed in the various branches of the building trade; the weekly amount paid in benefits; and the total amount paid in covenanted and un-covenanted benefits during the past 12 months?
In putting the question, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give the total figure if he does not give the details?
The total figure is 152,188. I will circulate the details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Arising out of that appalling figure of unemployment in the building trade, cannot the right hon. Gentleman make representation to the Minister of Health that, in addition to his other activities, he might find time to sanction the building of more houses by local authorities?
As the hon. Member knows, this whole subject is now under discussion.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give some consideration to the necessity for reconstructing this House, with the object of finding seats for hon. Members?
That question is for the Office of Works to consider.
Following are the details referred to:
The total number of persons unemployed in the various branches of the building trade on the 22nd January, 1923, the latest date for which figures are available, was as follows:
Carpenters … 15,379 Bricklayers … 7,640 Masons … 2,186 Slaters … 846 Plasterers … 2,834 Painters … 34,910 Plumbers … 4,574 Labourers … 63,937 All other occupations … 19,882 152,188
Assuming that these workpeople draw the same average per head as unemployed workpeople generally, the weekly amount drawn by them is about £108,500. A corresponding figure for 12 months could not be obtained without very considerable labour.
It is not possible to give separate figures for covenanted and uncovenanted benefit.
asked the Minister of Labour the total number of workmen who are to-day without employment in the building industry; and, in view of the need for the building of middle-class houses that can be let or sold at an economic price, he proposes to take steps to secure that work shall be found for these men by the private builders throughout the country?
At 22nd January, the number of persons in the building trades registered as unemployed at Employment Exchanges in Great Britain was 152,188, of whom 78,461 are classified as unskilled. The Government are of opinion that, if their policy is carried out, the erection of such houses will be facilitated, and, consequently, employment will be provided in the building industry.
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me what is the Government's policy?
The Government's policy has been outlined already.
Is it a fact that the number of unemployed building workers has decreased this year?
I should like notice of that question?
asked the Minister of Labour the number of building-trade workers who are at present unemployed in Scotland; and what is the total sum paid weekly in unemployed benefit to them?
At 22nd January, the number of persons in the building trades registered as unemployed at Employment Exchanges in Scotland was 14,218, of whom 6,100 were classified as unskilled. Assuming that these workpeople draw the same average per head as unemployed workpeople generally, the weekly amount drawn by them is, approximately, £10,000.
asked the Minister of Labour the approximate number of men unemployed in the Greater London area at the present time in the building trades; can he give any details as to whether they comprise bricklayers, carpenters, plasterers, and other building employés; and whether the numbers have recently increased or decreased?
At 22nd January there were 37,362 men registered as unemployed in the building trade at Employment Exchanges in the Greater London area, of whom 18,601 were unskilled and 18,761 were craftsmen, including 2,724 carpenters, 1,198 bricklayers, 706 plasters, 919 plumbers, and 11,602 painters. The corresponding total at 18th December, 1922, was 34,005.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the London County Council have all the organisation and machinery to absorb this labour forthwith given the authority of the Ministry of Health to do so?
I am afraid that I cannot be responsible for the actions of the London County Council.
Redruth
asked the Minister of Labour whether the Unemployment Grants Committee have come to any decision on the application of the Redruth Urban District Council for a grant in relief of unemployment in that area?
The Unemployment Grants Committee have authorised grants, and the Ministry of Health have sanctioned the necessary loans in respect of the three road schemes to which I understand the hon. and gallant Member refers.
Benefit
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that there are grave disabilities applied by local committees to unemployed men who, in the case after having proved that they were seeking employment, have been disallowed their pay, and, even when having obtained work for municipal corporations under condition of one week on and one week off, have been told that they cannot make another claim until next July; and, having regard to the hardships thus imposed, particularly upon married men, will steps be taken to put this matter in order, giving to men in such conditions their right to claim unemployment donation for the week they are idle?
The receipt of benefit is, of course, governed by statutory conditions, but subject to this the local committees have directions that benefit should not be refused to short-time workers where disallowance would involve hardship, having regard to all the circumstances. I am, however, not quite clear as to what particular class of case the hon. Member refers, and if he will give me particulars I will look into them at once.
I have already sent them in.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he can see his way to amend the Regulations in regard to unemployed pay so that an unemployed person, who does not receive in wages during a week the amount he would have received if he was paid the unemployment payment, may receive the balance of the payment to which he would have been so entitled after deducting the amount earned during the week, irrespective of the number of days he may have worked during the week?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply—of which I am sending him a copy—given on 15th February to a similar question by the hon. and gallant Member for Rotherham (Major Kelley).
asked the Minister of Labour the number of men and women to whom unemployment benefit was paid in the week ending on 17th February, and the total amount paid in such benefit?
The estimated number of males and females (including a small proportion of young persons between 16 and 18) to whom unemployment benefit was paid in the week ending 17th February, 1923, was 955,000 and 177,000 respectively; the total amount paid as unemployment benefit was approximately £925,000.
asked the Minister of Labour whether paragraph (3) of Clause 4 of the Circular L.E.C. 68/7, means that the 10 weeks of uncovenanted benefit, which is to be paid only in the ratio of one in three in respect of contributions, is to be debited against the recipient and taken into account in connection with the provision of the Act relating to repayment at 60 years of age; and, if so, whether this benefit is to be regarded as covenanted benefit?
In accordance with the provisions of the Acts, all benefit received, including that referred to in the question, is taken into account in ascertaining whether there is any balance to be refunded to the contributor at the age of 60. The benefit referred to is a discretionary grant, and is therefore not covenanted.
asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware of the great hard- ship suffered under the working rules of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1922; and will he introduce new legislation on the lines that when workmen are off work they be paid so much per day for each day off work, or so much per week?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply, of which I am sending him a copy, to a similar question asked yesterday by the hon. and gallant Member for Maiden (Major Ruggles-Brise).
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if we take two workmen A and B, A may get more working days in than B, and A will get more unemployment pay than B, yet A has more wages to draw than B at his pay office?
I have already intimated, in another answer which I gave earlier in the day, that there is great difficulty about apportioning benefit in respect of days of unemployment.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that Henry Stewart, 66, Avenue Road, Springburn, was offered work in Belfast by the Springburn Employment Exchange; that Stewart was unable to proceed to Belfast because he had no clothes; that the wages were insufficient to keep himself in Belfast and his wife and three children in Springburn; that his benefit was stopped, and Stewart appealed against the decision on 13th January and has had no reply; and whether immediate steps will be taken to prevent such hardships being inflicted?
I am making inquiries, and will communicate the result to the hon. Member.
Local Authorities (Necessitous Areas)
asked the Minister of Labour whether, when taking powers to amend the existing Unemployment Insurance Acts, he will have special regard to the serious financial position of many local authorities in industrial areas; and will he make such amendments as will provide against any further charges being placed on local rates on account of unemployment during the gap period of April to June next?
The contributory Unemployment Insurance scheme has been of very great assistance to local authorities by relieving them of charges which would otherwise have fallen upon them in respect of the unemployed. Proposals for a further grant of benefit will be made in the Bill which I am introducing to-day.
Relief Schemes, Sheffield
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that, in order to find work for the unemployed, the Sheffield Corporation has obtained approval for schemes the estimated cost of which is £849,625, towards which the estimated Government grant is £155,624, and that much the larger part of the balance has ultimately to come out of the rates of the city, which for the current year are 21s. 10d. in Sheffield and 22s. 6d. in Ecclesall; and whether these facts and the further fact that the Sheffield unions have expended nearly £1,250,000 in unemployment relief were before the Government when they decided that no special consideration could be given to this necessitous area?
My right hon. Friend is aware of the circumstances prevailing at Sheffield, and the situation in this and other areas was fully considered by the Government before the decision referred to was taken.
Does that answer mean that the Government are leaving Sheffield in all its difficulties without any help at all, and is that final? Are they going to continue to make the children of Sheffield pay for the special local circumstances?
I understand that the Government have already given great help to Sheffield.
Domestic Service
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will see that unemployment pay is not continued to women and girls capable of domestic service when employment in such service is available?
Benefit is only paid to women who are normally employed otherwise than in private domestic service. Further, such women who are suitable for, and who refuse, domestic service are not granted benefit. I have for some time past been giving attention to the existing conditions as to the supply of female domestic servants and to the effect of the Unemployment Insurance Scheme in this connection.
Who decides on the interpretation of the words "if suitable for" in the right hon. gentleman's answer?
That is subject to the Minister's general over-riding powers and general responsibility. It is decided in the first instance by the local committee.
Has the Minister any authority to decide the wages and conditions of the domestic service, into which he is asked to force these women?
Is it not a fact that benefit is being paid to a number of domestic servants who are usually employed in hotels; and, if there are no vacancies in hotels, why cannot they be employed in private houses?
If they are employed in a hotel or an institution carried on for profit, they come within the ambit of the Act. That is quite true, but they are always considered first of all, if there is no institutional vacancy, for ordinary domestic service before benefit is granted.
Lace Industry
asked the Minister of Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to the special conditions operating in the lace industry, particularly as they affect auxiliary workers who attend to do one or two hours' work on several days in each week, thus disqualifying them from unemployed benefit; and whether he will consider in such cases the cumulative hours so worked being deducted, and the remaining hours to qualify for benefit or some such scheme that would give the same result?
In general, benefit is only payable in respect of days on which an applicant is wholly unemployed, and I cannot undertake to propose an extension of the limited class of cases in which this rule does not apply. In the kind of case referred to by the hon. Member, the allowance of benefit may depend upon the rule regarding the continuity of un- employment, an amendment of which I hope to propose in the Bill which I am introducing to-day.
Employment Exchanges (Instructions)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will provide the Members of this House with such circulars and Regulations, not being of a confidential nature, as are issued by his Department for the guidance of managers of Employment Exchanges in the matter of unemployment insurance benefit?
I have already undertaken to place in the Library a copy of all the principal documents, including circulars, regulations and other memoranda, which are issued to the public or to local employment committees. I regret that I cannot go beyond this.
Railway Work
asked the Minister of Labour how much of the work which the railway companies promised to undertake at once for the relief of unemployment has actually been put in hand, and how many men are engaged upon it; whether the companies have given an assurance that the materials employed shall be of British design and workmanship; and, if not, whether he will ask for such assurance, in the interests of the workpeople of this country?
I have been asked to reply. The new works which, as my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour explained in the House, the railway companies had in hand, or were proposing to put in hand at an early date, are being carried out by the companies voluntarily, and I am not in a position to give the detailed information asked for in the first part of the question. I understand, however, that nearly all the schemes in immediate prospect last November have already been put in hand, or are on the point of being started, but that many of the additional schemes decided upon since then cannot actually be started for some months. The point raised in the last part of the question is one that must be left to the discretion of the companies.
Juvenile Unemployment Centres
asked the Minister of Labour whether any arrangement has been come to by his Department with the London County Council that youths of 16 to 18 years of age in receipt of unemployment pay must attend continuation schools for certain hours each week; will he state what the arrangement is; how many youths it applies to in the County of London; whether his Department pays any of the cost of the schools; and, if so, what is the estimated annual cost?
By arrangement with the Ministry of Labour the London County Council have set up juvenile unemployment centres for boys and girls between the ages of 14 and 18, and the number of boys and girls in attendance at these centres on 21st February was 3,429. Boys and girls drawing unemployment benefit may be required to attend a centre unless they are attending some other approved course of instruction, such as a voluntary day continuation school. The estimated cost of the London centres for three months from 12th February is £15,000, of which 75 per cent. will be borne by the Exchequer.
Is the right hon. Gentleman now prepared in the necessitous areas to defray the whole cost?
The offer made by the Government in connection with the local areas was not an ungenerous one, and I am not prepared to go further.
Productive Work
asked the Minister of Labour if, in view of the fact that the total payments of unemployed benefits amounted to £52,000,000 for the year 1921–22, and Poor Law relief to unemployed workpeople has been paid during the same period of a similar amount, his Department will apply this sum of over £100,000,000 for useful productive work instead of the present system of non-productive and enforced idleness?
Unemployment benefit is paid out of a fund to which employers and workpeople have contributed, and for the reasons set out in the recently-published Report of the Cabinet Unemployment Committee (of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy) I can not undertake to propose that the money should be used for purposes other than those for which it was contributed.
Vaccination, Scunthorpe
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether he is aware that a certain employer in Scunthorpe has recently discharged a workman because he refused to consent to vaccination; whether the man, upon applying for unemployment benefit, has been debarred by the referee to whom his application was referred by the manager of the Employment Exchange; and whether he will take steps to see that the man does not lose his benefit because he exercised his legal right?
I have been asked to reply. In view of the decision of the Umpire in a similar case the claim of this applicant has been referred by the Insurance Officer to the Umpire, whose decision, under the statutory procedure, will be final. I will inform the hon. Member when the decision has been given. I understand that the applicant has now obtained employment.
Questions
Ordnance Depot, Didcot (Employes' Railway Fares)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that each of the 400 men residing in Oxford, and employed at the Ordnance Depot, Didcot, have to pay 6s. 3d. weekly for railway fares alone, in addition to other costs of transport; and whether he will make arrangements with the railway company or otherwise whereby these men may be relieved of this charge?
I have been asked to reply. I understand that the circumstances are as stated. I will communicate with the railway company, with a view to seeing whether any reduction of the present fare is practicable.
Liverpool-Manchester Road
asked the Minister of Labour what progress, if any, has been made between the Government and the local authorities concerned relative to the proposed Liverpool-Manchester road; and whether, in the event of the local authorities declining to accede to the terms already laid down, he will state if the Government will proceed with the work on its own account?
I have been asked to answer this question. As regards the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given on the 21st February to the hon. Member for the Luton Division, of which I am sending him a copy. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.
Can the hon. Gentleman give us the approximate date on which this work is to be commenced; will it be this year, next year, some time or never?
The answer is quite simple. When the various local authorities have told us what they will subscribe and when they will put up the money, we will put up our share and the work will proceed.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the only local authority objecting to this road is Manchester?
Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that only British stone will be used on this road?
That question should be addressed to the local authorities.
Lausanne Conference
asked the Prime Minister whether the Russian delegates at Lausanne made any offer for the reduction of naval armaments or the demilitarisation of the Black Sea; and whether he will publish its terms?
I hope that the Papers regarding the Lausanne Conference may be laid in the course of the next few days. They will contain all the proposals and speeches made by the Russian Delegation about the Straits and Black Sea, and the hon. and gallant Member will be able to judge for himself.
Flax Cultivation, Limited
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that a receiver has been appointed on behalf of the Government as debenture holders of Flax Cultivation, Limited; whether he is aware that already the action taken has resulted in the dismissal of 60 workpeople and that no less a number than 600 employés are in immediate danger of losing their employment; and whether he can see his way to stay further proceedings in this matter and give this company an extension of time for the repayment of the sum of money at issue, with a view to giving this industry which was started specially, during the War, an opportunity of establishing its position and thus ensuring the continuance of a new industry, the employment of a very considerable number of workpeople as well as the development of the growth of the necessary raw material, thus giving employment to a considerable number of rural workers?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the dismissal of workpeople, I understand that the stocks of straw in the company's possession have now been entirely deseeded, and that the deseeders and other employés engaged in that process, having now no duties to perform, have been dismissed. It has previously been the company's practice to transfer these employés to the process of retting and drying the flax, but these processes can only be satisfactorily carried on in dry summer weather and cannot be undertaken at this time of the year. As regards the future of the company, I am informed that the Receiver has been in constant touch with the chairman of the company, and is prepared to give careful consideration to a scheme of reconstruction which is being formulated. In answer to the last part of the question, I can assure the hon. Member that the decision of the Government to apply for the appointment of a Receiver was not taken until every possible alternative had been carefully and sympathetically examined. In this connection, I may say that the Government expressed its willingness to accept a sum of £30,000 in full settlement of debts amounting to £370,000, but even with this substantial concession no satisfactory scheme for placing the undertaking on a firm financial basis could be produced. In these circumstances my right hon. Friend regrets that he is unable to accept the suggestion that further proceedings should be stayed.
Local Taxation
asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce at an early date a Measure for the purpose of effecting a reform in the present system of taxation in the urban and agricultural districts?
I am unable at present to add anything to the reference to this matter in the King's Speech.
Easter (Fixed Date)
asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to take steps to secure a fixed annual date for Easter?
The answer is in the negative.
Housing
Brickmakers' Wages (Somerset)
asked the Minister of Labour the rate of wages paid to brickmakers in Somerset and the prices demanded for bricks in that county in the years 1919 and 1922, respectively?
As the reply is somewhat lengthy, I will, if I may, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the reply:
According to the information in my possession, the recognised rate of wages for brickmakers on time work at Bridgwater at the beginning of 1919 appears to have been about 43s. per week of 55 hours; at the end of 1919 it was 48s. per week of 48 hours. The corresponding rates at the beginning and end of 1922 were 51s. and 40s. respectively for a week of 48 hours. I understand, however, that the majority of the workers in the brickyards at Bridgwater are engaged on piece work, but the actual earnings of men on piece work are not available. I have no information as to the wages of brickmakers in other districts of Somerset.
I understand that the prices of building bricks at Bridgwater were as follows:
January, 1919 … 75s. 6d. per 1,000 December, 1919 … 84s. 0d. per 1,000 January, 1922 … 85s. 6d. per 1,000 December, 1922 … 60s. 0d. per 1,000
Decontrol
asked the Prime Minister whether the proposals of the Government relating to the decontrol of houses will be made a question of confidence in the Government?
The answer to this question must depend upon the circumstances at the time. If there has been sufficient improvement in the situation to justify decontrol, the Whips would be put on.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not consider that that reply will cause even greater uncertainty than now exists with regard to this question?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at the present time, as a consequence of the present position, there is no confidence in the Government?
Bricklayers (Wages and Hours)
asked the Minister of Labour the trade union wages and hours of work of a bricklayer in 1914, in 1920, and in 1923; and the index figure rise in the cost of living for 1920 and for 1923 as compared with 1914?
As the reply to this question involves a statistical table, and is necessarily somewhat lengthy, I will, if I may, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The rates of wages of bricklayers vary in different localities. The usual range of the rates recognised by employers and trade unions was:
7d. to 11½d. per hour at August, 1914.
1s. 3d. to 2s. per hour at the beginning of 1920.
1s. 10d. to 2s. 4d. per hour at the end of 1920, and
1s. 3d. to 1s. 8d. per hour at February, 1923.
The recognised hours of labour in a full normal week in the summer months varied in different districts from
46½ to 56½ at August, 1914, and from
44 to 56½ at the beginning of 1920.
The normal hours in the winter months were generally less than at other periods of the year. By the end of 1920 a uniform week of 44 hours had been generally adopted and has continued in operation up to December, 1922, when, for the two winter months of December, 1922, and January, 1923, 41½ hours were generally adopted.
The average percentage increase since July, 1914, in the cost of maintaining the pre-War standard of living of working-class families, in the country as a whole, as shown by the Ministry of Labour index figure, is
At the beginning of 1920 … … 125 At the end of 1920 … … 165 At February, 1923 … … 77
Middle-Class Houses
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether he can state if private builders are now erecting houses suitable for the middle classes; if he can generally indicate how many have been built, how many are in the course of erection, and the cost of such houses; and whether they are erected for the purposes both of sale and letting?
It is a matter of common observation that a considerable number of middle class houses are being built by private enterprise at the present time, but statistics as to the number, cost and terms of disposal of such houses are not available.
Are the builders in receipt of subsidies?
No, Sir.
In view of the grave dissatisfaction amongst the middle classes as to the prospect of sufficient houses being built, will the Noble Lord not give these statistics before the Mitcham election is over?
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether, to provide houses at once for the middle classes, he will consider a scheme whereby the builder is advanced by the State 85 per cent. of the estimated cost of the house, the money to be advanced in instalments as the work proceeds and on a certificate given by the local authority surveyor, and to be repayable over a period of 20 years, the State to hold a mortgage on the building until the money has been repaid, and the builder to have the right of transferring his mortgage to the purchaser of the building?
A proposal to secure the object desired through the medium of the local authorities is being considered in connection with the Housing Bill.
Slum Clearances
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether, with regard to the sum of about £160,000 allocated to local authorities in England and Wales as assistance towards the cost of slum clearances in 1922 and 1923, an estimate has been made as to how many years it will take to abolish existing slums at the rate of progress made possible by such an annual grant?
The answer is in the negative. The provision actually made is for an annual State grant of £200,000 per annum, to be available during the whole term of the repayment of such loans as may be required and to be supplemented by a contribution of a like amount by local authorities.
Has the Noble Lord any idea of how long it will take, at the present rate, to redeem these slum clearances?
That depends partly upon the policy of the local authorities.
Belper Urban Council Scheme
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether he has received an application from the Belper Urban District Council for sanction to proceed with the erection of more houses under the State-assisted scheme; and, if so, what does he propose to do in the matter?
Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend informed the local authority on the 3rd January that all the houses available under the State-assisted scheme had already been allocated, and that he was, therefore, unable to accede to their request. As the hon. Member is aware, a Bill to make further provision in regard to housing is being introduced.
Public Utility Societies
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether he is aware that public utility (housing) societies are compelled by the Regulations now in force to charge rents so much higher than those charged by local authorities for similar houses occupied by tenants earning similar wages, and that in consequence they have arrears of rent which they cannot collect; and whether, in view of the number of these houses now empty in spite of local housing shortage, he will reconsider the terms upon which public money was advanced to these societies?
My right hon. Friend would refer the hon. Member to the answer given yesterday by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the question asked by the hon. Member for Basingstoke.
Will the Department of the Noble Lord make a representation to the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the disadvantage of houses being empty owing to the financial Regulations, and in view of the shortage of houses?
I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer is already fully alive to that.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether he is aware that many employers of labour, who were induced by the Government in 1919–20 to invest capital in public utility (housing) societies, are threatened with the loss of the whole of their capital so invested, owing to the lack of any provision for putting the schemes of these societies on, approximately, the same basis as the schemes of local authorities, and that, in consequence, other employers will be deterred from providing houses for their workpeople; and what action he proposes to take to ensure the continued activity of such societies in the provision of houses?
The question of the further provision of houses by public utility societies and other forms of private enterprise will be considered in connection with the Housing Bill of the present Session.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Minister of Health, if he is aware that the propaganda issued by his Department has encouraged the sale of houses by public utility societies financed by the Ministry; that the contracts for sales have been submitted to the Ministry and the fee for the release of individual houses agreed; and that when the societies wished to obtain the deeds and repay the mortgages they are faced with a demand for a sum equivalent to the difference in price of public stocks at the time of borrowing and the current price; is he aware that such sums represent about £20 in every hundred; and will he consider whether this procedure can be altered so as to give more encouragement to builders to erect houses?
Arrangements have been made under which, in the cases of sales of houses made by public utility societies with the approval of the Ministry, the societies will only be called upon to repay the cash advanced to them.
Cottages, Rotherfield
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether he is aware that two cottages in Station Road, Rotherfield, erected by the Uckfield Rural District Council, were let to tenants who entered into occupation on 10th June, 1922; that from that time to this they have had no water supply, though there is a waterpipe of the Crowborough Water Company only 150 yards away; that the cottages are thus insanitary, and representations to this effect have been made to the district council by the Rotherfield Parish Council and the medical officer of health; and whether he will take steps to compel the district council to immediately provide a proper water supply?
My right hon. Friend is in communication with the Uckfield Rural District Council on this matter, and will inform the hon. Member of the position.
Construction
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether he will state the number of houses of the two higher classes, under the Rent Restriction Act, which have been erected during the past three years; and whether he has any information enabling him to form an estimate of the number of such houses which are likely to be erected before June, 1924?
Statistics bearing on the first part of the question are not available, but my right hon. Friend is advised that if the policy of the Government is carried out the supply of these houses in 1924 should approximate to the demand.
Ex-Service Men
Training and Employment
asked the Minister of Labour whether the Government has accepted the recommendations of the Select Committee on the Training and Employment of Disabled Ex-Service Men, in regard to training, improver-ships, and after care; and, if so, what steps have been, or will be, taken in regard thereto?
The duties assigned to the new King's Roll Committees include, as recommended by the Select Committee, the provision of improver-ships and the organisation of after-care. The views on particular aspects of the training scheme, expressed by the Committee in Section XII of their Report, have been carefully considered, and have been carried out so far as is practicable. If the hon. Member wishes to go into further detail, I shall be glad to discuss the matter with him.
asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the large number of ex-service men, other than apprentices, who by reason of their industrial training being interrupted by the early age at which they were recruited for war service, are now only semi-skilled in their ordinary industrial occupation, and consequently unable to find employment, he will consider the urgent necessity of making provision for the completion of the training of such men, and so enable them to seek employment at the recognised rate of wages and with the degree of skilled craftsmanship usual at the age they have now reached?
The problem presented by these men is one which I have already under consideration, but having regard to the widespread unemployment among men already skilled, there does not seem to be much likelihood that a scheme of training would afford a solution. I may add that 48,000 ex-service men have in fact received assistance under the Interrupted Apprenticeship Scheme.
Commercial Work
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the great difficulty in finding employment experienced by ex-service men in training for commercial work; and, seeing that this is due to the absence of any provision for enabling these men to obtain practical experience in offices, whether he will consider the desirability of providing this further training?
I am aware of and regret the difficulties in securing suitable employment for men trained in commercial work. They are due mainly to the trade depression, which affects this occupation equally with others, and not to inadequate training. The men are carefully selected and in most cases a definite promise of subsequent employment is required before they are put into training. The normal period of training is 12 months, part of which can be spent with a private employer. The training given has been found sufficient to qualify men for employment, and I do not think I should be justified in extending the course.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that during the last 12 months not more than 5 per cent. of the men so trained have obtained positions, that the position is stated to be that persons requiring employés always insist on practical experience in an office, and that there is no provision for improverships for these men trained in Commercial subjects?
I do not quite accept the hon. and gallant Member's figures, but I will go with him to this extent, that the number of men who have found employment is by no means as large as I hoped and anticipated.
Is it not a fact that that is largely owing to the action of the trade unions?
Diamond Works, Brighton
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that a number of ex-service men discharged from the Brighton Diamond Works, and who were promised retraining and who have not found alternative employment, have been refused the training grant; whether it is proposed to re-open the works so as to find employment for these men; if he is aware that considerable improvement in the Continental trade has taken place, and if, in view of this, the matter will receive his attention?
I am aware that, as a result of the closure of the Brighton Diamond Works, a number of ex-service men who had received training in diamond cutting and polishing have lost their employment. No promise was made that they would receive alternative training. I understand that endeavours are being made to reopen the works, and if so I hope that the majority of the men will be reinstated. I can assure the hon. Member that the matter is receiving my earnest attention and that I will do all that I can on behalf of the men who have lost their employment. If the works do not reopen, the question of alternative training will have to be considered.
Has not this difficulty arisen owing to the action of the trade unions?
King's Roll (Local Authorities)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he can now give the House the names of the local authorities who are not on the King's Roll for the employment of men disabled in the War?
Out of 2,822 local authorities in England, Scotland and Wales, 1,218 are on the King's Roll. I think it is likely that the King's Roll National Council which has recently been set up, and of which Earl Haig is Chairman, will consider the question of publish-the names of local authorities not on the Roll, and I should, of course, consider very carefully any advice which they may give me on the subject.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say why he has declined for so many months to give the names? Would it not be in the interest of the ex-service men if we knew the local authorities who have declined to put their names on the King's Roll?
Did not the right hon. Gentleman give a specific pledge in the last Session of Parliament that he would give the names of local authorities?
I do not think I said that. I said I wanted to find out what efforts were being made on voluntary lines, and I said the time might come, if progress were not made, when some stronger measures would have to be taken.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the final effort was not made more than six or seven months ago?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that even when the local authority get on the King's Roll, it is no guarantee that they will carry out their promises to the ex-service men?
There is as much guarantee in their case as in all other cases. The cases come up for examination and renewal periodically, and when the application for renewal comes up, the facts of each case are fully considered.
Benefit
asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that there are ex-service men who are still unable to draw unemployment benefit because they have not sufficient, or any, stamps on their cards, their last employer being His Majesty's Government, War Office; and whether he will take steps to remove this injustice by issuing instructions that those who fought for their country should be allowed unemployment benefit though they are not able to produce cards with the usual stamps affixed?
asked the Minister of Labour whether an ex-service man who has obtained only intermittent employment since his discharge from the Army or Navy is disqualified for unemployment benefit if such intermittent employment was in an excepted trade or industry; and, if so, whether, in view of the disadvantage suffered by ex-service men in being discharged from the forces at a time of great industrial depression, he will take whatever steps are necessary to provide for the payment of uncovenanted benefit to such men?
In accordance with the express provisions of the Statute, uncovenanted benefit is payable only to persons who are normally employed in an insured trade. Special provision is made to meet the case of ex-service men who served in the Great War, and who cannot prove sufficient employment in an insured trade since their discharge. In such cases they may base a claim on employment of a kind now insurable in which they had been engaged before joining the forces.
Out-Door Relief
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether an ex-service man's disability pension is taken into consideration as income when such men apply for relief from the board of guardians?
There is no legal authority for disregarding such a source of income as a disability pension when considering an application for relief.
Questions
Insurance by Industries
asked the Minister of Labour whether any country has yet adopted, either in its entirety or in part, the principle of insurance by industries; and whether in that case he can supply the essential details in the form of a White Paper?
So far as I am aware, only the Italian legislation, besides our own, provides for unemployment insurance by industries. I understand that three industrial schemes have been approved in Italy, viz., for the printing and paper industries, the Turin metal-working trades, and the Piedmont building trades. No reports on these schemes have yet been issued.
Water Supply
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether, in view of the contentious proposals now being put forward, he will investigate the whole question of the water supplies of this country so that some definite policy governing use may be reached in the general interest rather than in that of specific areas; and whether he will consider the desirability of suspending official approval of all large schemes for tapping particular districts until such a policy has been evolved?
A survey of the water resources and requirements of the country is at present being undertaken with a view to the adoption of a general policy such as my hon. Friend suggests. It would not, however, be practicable to hold up all applications in the meantime so far as there is serious need in any particular areas for additional water supplies.
Sheffield Union
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether he is aware that at the recent inquiry, conducted by Mr. Lowry into charges of maladministration made against the guardians of the Sheffield union by certain large firms, evidence was tendered by the representative of one of the firms that such firm employed 7,500 men; whether he is aware that not more than 2,000 of such men are employed within the Sheffield union; and will he cause this matter to be considered in connection with Mr. Lowry's report?
The point raised by the hon. Member will receive due consideration.
Is the Noble Lord aware that it is now the custom for the Ministry of Health to send down inspectors who are really propaganda agents for the Tory party?
Health and Unemployment Insurance
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether the Departmental Committee set up by the Treasury to examine the suggestion contained in the Report of the Geddes Economy Committee for a joint card for health and unemployment insurance, has yet issued its final Report; whether such Report, when issued, will be forthwith published for the information of the House; and whether, in view of the necessity of placing orders for the printing of insurance cards some months in advance of their issue to societies, exchanges, and employers, there is any likelihood of the proposal, if recommended, being put into operation by July, 1923?
My right hon. Friend understands that the Inter-Departmental Committee (which was appointed by the Minister of Health and the Minister of Labour) has closely considered the subject referred to in the first part of the question, and hopes to be able to report upon it shortly. Until the report is presented he is unable to make any statement with regard to the second part of the question. In view of the consideration referred to in the third part of the question, it would not now be possible for the proposal for a joint card, if recommended, to be brought into operation by July next.
National Health Insurance
Tuberculosis Treatment
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, the number of persons at any recent given date notified as suffering from tuberculosis who had failed to secure admission to sanatoria?
The number of persons recommended for and awaiting treatment for tuberculosis in residential institutions from local authorities in Eng- land and Wales on the 1st February, 1923, was 2,902, on which date 16,393 persons were receiving such treatment and there were a number of vacant beds. My right hon. Friend is not aware of the number of notified cases which have not been admitted to residential institutions: but the hon. Member no doubt appreciates that not all notified cases of tuberculosis require, or are willing to receive, such treatment.
Will the Noble Lord make inquiries from the approved societies of the county in order to get figures on this subject that will stagger him?
Questions
Milk
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether his attention has been called to the fact that the provisions of the Milk (Special Designations) Amendment Order, 1922, now lying upon the Table of the House, requires the employment of a plant for pasteurisation the expense of which is beyond the means of the smaller retail dairyman; whether he has received any representations on the point; and whether the danger that the application of this Order will tend to increase the power of the milk combine has been brought to his notice?
Some representations have been made to my right hon. Friend in the. sense suggested by the hon. Member, but he does not regard them as sufficient to justify a departure from the principles on which the Order has been made. "Pasteurisation" is a designation applied to milk which has been subjected to certain heating processes, as set out in the Order. It is obvious that such processes cannot be undertaken except by the adoption of the necessary means or machinery, entailing some capital expenditure. My right hon. Friend wishes to point out that there is nothing in the Order to compel any dairyman to pasteurise the milk he offers for sale.
Will the dairyman who does not pasteurise his milk have the same market as the one who does?
He will not be entitled to describe it as such.
Will the Noble Lord reply specifically to the last part of the question?
That point has been considered by the Ministry of Health; it has been decided not to go beyond the terms of the Order.
Dentists Act, 1921
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether he has received a petition in favour of modifying the terms of the Dentists Act, 1921, so that such unregistered dental practitioners and dental mechanics as had not reached the age of 23 on 28th July, 1921, but who served in the War, shall be eligible to sit for the prescribed examination; and whether he intends to take action in the matter?
Representations have been received in this sense, but my right hon. Friend has nothing to add to the reply given on the 14th December last to a similar question by the hon. and gallant Member for Southport.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether he is aware that the Dental Board of the United Kingdom have informed the candidates concerned that the scheme for educational assistance and maintenance to those who desire to qualify under the Dentists Act, 1921, will not be considered until the end of May; that this delay is causing great hardship to a large number of ex-service and other candidates who have been arbitrarily excluded from the profession under Section 3 (1) (3) of the Dentists Act, 1921; and whether, in view of the fact that the Dentists Act has now been upon the Statute Book for more than 18 months, he will take immediate steps to expedite the completion of the scheme or, alternatively, to make some other provision for those who are now without either employment or maintenance?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, the age limit is statutory and no objection was raised on this point when the Bill was under discussion in the House. As regards the third part of the question, my right hon. Friend has no jurisdiction over the Dental Board in this matter.
Poor Rate (Equalisation)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether he will consider the possibility of creating a central fund in each administrative county to which all Poor Law authorities should contribute and which should be employed to level down the inequalities of Poor Rate, as is done in London; and whether he will take the opinion of Poor Law and county authorities on this suggestion?
My right hon. Friend has considered the possibility of some such plan as is suggested in the question, but, in view of the absence among provincial unions of the common interest which is the basis of the Metropolitan arrangements, he doubts whether such a plan is practicable.
General Nursing Council
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether, in view of the fact that the whole of the expenses connected with the General Nursing Council is paid for by the registered nurses, there being no State subsidy for its upkeep, the chairman, who was also the returning officer and therefore responsible for the mismanagement which rendered the second election necessary, is to be asked to reimburse the money thus wasted, or will the nurses, who were deprived of all knowledge and control with regard to this matter, be obliged to bear the cost?
Such additional expenditure as is not recoverable from the distributing agency responsible for the miscarriage of the voting papers will fall upon the funds of the council. The council have not suggested that any part of the loss should be borne by the returning officer, and my right hon. Friend would not regard such a suggestion as equitable or in accordance with the practice of similar bodies.
Pauper Lunatics
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether boards of guardians have informed him that the present charge per head for pauper lunatics is excessive, and that in view of the heavy charges made upon the Poor Law authorities for the maintenance of the pauper lunatics, boards of guardians should have representation upon the various asylums boards; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. It is not possible to deal with this matter without legislation, which it would not be practicable to introduce at present, but the point has been noted for consideration when any general amendment of the Lunacy Acts is undertaken.
Meantime will these excessive charges be allowed to go on?
I will convey that suggestion to my right hon. Friend.
Small-Pox (Clown, Derbyshire)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether his attention has been called to an outbreak of small-pox at Clown, in Derbyshire; whether the medical officer of health for the district has expressed any view as to whether the overcrowding of two and sometimes three families into one cottage house has any connection with this outbreak; and what steps does the Minister propose to take in the matter?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I have seen a newspaper account of a recent meeting of the district council at which the medical officer of health is reported to have said that overcrowding would favour the spread of the disease, but that vaccination is an absolute safeguard. One of the medical officers of the Ministry has recently visited the district in order to advise and assist the local authorities and their officers, and my right hon. Friend is now awaiting his report.
Can the Noble Lord say whether the cases where small-pox was contracted were unvaccinated or not?
I must have notice of that question.
Westminster Workhouse (Treatment)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, as representing the Ministry of Health, whether he is aware that an inmate of the Westminster Union Workhouse, in Fulham Road, desirous of going out in the morning to look for employment gets no breakfast nor any food for the day, and receives nothing after his return until 6 p.m. that evening when he only gets a pint of tea and five ounces of bread; and whether he will make representations to the guardians on this matter so that an unemployed man who is willing and anxious to look for work may receive better treatment?
Is the hon. Member entitled to ask a question while standing on the Gangway, behind Mr. Speaker's chair?
I think the hon. Member has just come within the House.
My right hon. Friend is informed that the guardians are now considering a complaint which they have received on this subject, and he proposes to await their consideration of the matter. He understands, however, that it is only very rarely that men seeking work leave the workhouse before breakfast, which is available on application at 7 o'clock, that dinner for such men is reserved until 1 p.m., if they have not returned by the dinner hour at noon, and that a man who returned for dinner would be allowed to go out again in the afternoon if the Master were satisfied that he had a good chance of obtaining work.
Will the Noble Lord consider the advisability of issuing a general Order, so that all boards of guardians should treat the people alike?
I think it will be better to await the Report in this particular case.
As we have created a record in reaching 112 questions would you, Sir, receive on behalf of hon. Members of this House a pair of white gloves?
Kenya (Indian Subjects)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the cabled information from Kenya published to-day that the Governor of Kenya is proceeding to London with a European deputation to discuss new proposals dealing with the Indian question is correct, and, if so, whether, in view of the fact that the Convention of Associations in the Colony has reserved to itself the right to take direct action should the proposed Conference break down, the Secretary of State for the Colonies approves of the Governor leaving the Colony; and, further, whether a statement can be made to this House with regard to the serious position threatening the peace of the Colony?
While it is the fact that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies is hoping that it may be possible for the Governor to come to England at an early date to discuss with His Majesty's Government the several aspects of the position of Indians in Kenya, he is still awaiting a telegram from Sir Robert Coryndon. I will take an opportunity of informing the House as soon as I have further information to give. In reply to the first part of the question, I should add that no new proposals have yet been received.
Has the Prime Minister had an opportunity of seeing the resolution passed by the European Convention in Kenya?
Yes, I have see a number of papers connected with it.
Notices of Motions
Accidents in Mines
On this day fortnight, to call attention to Accidents in Mines, and to move a Resolution.—[ Mr. Barker. ]
Hop Industry
On this day fortnight, to call attention to the Hop Industry, and to move a Resolution.—[ Commander Bellairs. ]
Development Commissioners
On this day fortnight, to call attention to the position of the Development Commissioners, and to move a Resolution.—[ Mr. F. Gray. ]
Foreign Affairs
On this day fortnight, to call attention to the necessity for democratic control of Foreign Affairs, and to move a Resolution.—[ Mr. Trevelyan. ]
Bills Presented
Unemployment Insurance Bill,
"to amend the provisions of the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1920 to 1922, relating to special periods, the period of benefit, and the conditions for the receipt of benefit; to provide for continuing the existing rates of benefit and for making consequential alterations in the rates of contributions; and to enable benefit to be administered, in the case of persons under the age of 18 years, through local education authorities; and otherwise to amend those Acts," presented by Sir MONTAGUE BARLOW; supported by Mr. Baldwin, Major Boyd-Carpenter, Captain Elliot, and the Solicitor-General; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 37.]
Bastardy Bill,
"to amend the Bastardy laws and to make further and better provision with regard to children of unmarried parents; and for other purposes connected therewith," presented by Captain BOWYER; supported by Mr. Betterton and Mr. Wignall; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 38.]
Orders of the Day
Supply
Considered in Committee.
[Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]
Civil Service Supplementary Estimates, 1922–23
Class VI
Emergency Services
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £9,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1923, for certain Expenses incurred in connection with the purchase and importation of coal during the stoppage in the Coal Mining Industry in 1921."
On Monday night, when the Adjournment took place, I was putting a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which I now propose to repeat. In 1922 we were asked by the Government for a sum of £7,250,000 and it was granted. There was no suggestion at that time that any portion of that Estimate was to be used to subsidise private companies. We understood that the companies were to receive coal for necessary public services, and were to pay the price which the Government paid for it; but, according to the figures we now have before us, there is a very big difference between the amounts paid and received by the Government. The estimated outlay was £7,250,000; the receipts are estimated to-day at £6,496,000 or a difference of £754,000. How has that come about? What principle was adopted in handing out this coal to the private companies? Were they given it on their contract prices previously to the stoppage in 1921? I assume they were, as otherwise this difference would not have resulted. I want further to ask if any of this coal went to municipally-owned concerns, and if it did were they given it at the same price as was paid by the private companies, or were the local rates called upon to make up the difference? At the time of the stoppage, in 1921, the miners asked for a subsidy of £10,000,000 from the Government, but it was not until some weeks after the strike had been in progress that it was granted, and then a lesser sum than was asked for was given. These private companies, I do not know how many of them there were, apparently have been subsidised to the amount of over £750,000. There was quite a flutter a few weeks ago when an hon. Member made a statement with regard to the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) in reference to a subsidy granted during his period of office to a private company. But as long as this sort of thing continues, as long as private companies are bolstered up by the Government from public funds, so long will these suspicions and bad feelings obtain. If these concerns were owned by the country, as in my opinion they ought to be, being as they are essential services, a question like this would not arise, for if the country did subsidise them at a time of trouble it would be a quite excusable act.
According to the "Times" of the 13th June, 1921, the cost of mobilising the Reserves during that particular mine stoppage and maintaining the Defence forces amounted to at least £6,000,000. There was a bounty given to Reservists during the same stoppage of £350,000. The transport arrangements and the importation of coal and so on cost £6,250,000, and the extra cost of the railway guarantee at that time is given at £9,000,000. The figures were all very big, and it was only the miners who could not be helped out of the difficult times into which we say the Government themselves plunged them. I simply want to ask where this difference in these amounts comes from. The same question was asked two or three times the other night. There is a sum of over £750,000 to be accounted for in the difference between the receipts and expenditure. We want to know what companies received the coal. Were they London or Cardiff or Newport firms, or firms in other big cities, or did they constitute a few chosen firms? We were told that it was American coal that was handed over to them. I do not think that is correct. I am informed that much of this coal which was paid for as American coal was simply coal sent back from France and Germany which had been consigned to those countries by us some time before. Why then were these high prices charged? These are questions to which I think we are entitled to have a reply.
4.0 P.M.
I rise again to repeat, perhaps in another form, the question which I put the other evening when this Estimate was before the Committee. We are given to-day, in the Estimate, the amount of money that was paid by the Government for coal in 1921 in order that they might supply it for public services and for the requirements of the country. We have also got the amount received as payment for the coal so supplied, and the figures show an actual loss. We shall be told that, although they were entitled to purchase coal up to the amount of £7,250,000, roughly speaking they purchased only coal to the amount of £6,734,000, and they disposed of that for £6,496,000, thereby showing a loss of £238,000. We have been very carefully watching this thing, but until these figures were issued we were unable to ascertain what was the actual loss on the transaction. What, however, I am concerned with to-day is that the Government are asking for a small sum of £9,000 in order to clear up the rags and tatters of that transaction. As my hon. Friend has already pointed out, the municipalities and others who required the coal for the public services were going to be asked to pay for it in full. The actual amount paid for the coal was £6,734,000, and there was a loss of £229,000. As we pointed out at the time, there was no necessity for the purchase of this coal at all. If it had not been for the very foolish policy of the Government—
The hon. and gallant Member must not discuss the policy involved. That has all been gone into before.
I am sorry that I was drawn off the track. All I am concerned about is to find out where the loss is shown in any Government document. I think the Secretary for Mines will agree that the actual loss on the transaction was £229,000.
I am rather concerned as to whether this is the cleaning up of the Estimates with regard to the lockout in 1921. We are continually hearing of the cost to the taxpayer of that particular dispute. We are to-day asked for £9,000 to complete the cost which totals something over £7,000,000. It is important that the hon. and gallant Gentleman should declare that we shall have no more Estimates dealing with the dispute. Seven million pounds have been paid by the taxpayers for the purchase of coal, and it has gone into the pockets of private individuals. If we could have the full bill of the late Government—they are being followed by this Government—in subsidising private employers and private individuals, it would total many £7,000,000, and it is time the House put a stop to this kind of business. Before this expenditure the miners asked the Government to assist them to carry on for a short time with control, but Parliament decided otherwise. Since then this House has spent something approaching £22,000,000 in this direction. I think I am safe in saying that the cost of the defence force in this matter was some tens of millions. It was never called for, and it never did anything except spend money.
I must remind the hon. Member that the question of the policy pursued does not arise on this Supplementary Estimate.
I am very sorry to run up against you in any matter which is being discussed in this House, but I think, when we are discussing this matter, we might by illustration show what this has cost and try to get to know when there will be an end of spending money in this direction. We on this side of the House, representing the mining community in particular, feel that it would have been more economical if the miners had been kept at work in the interests of the nation and in their own interests.
This is a Supplementary Estimate for £9,000. The policy as to the original grant was decided last year.
We ought to know something about it. We ought to know what it has been used for and why we are asked for £9,000. The Committee ought to be fully informed what the Government are having to provide this £9,000 for on this occasion. We believe that it is not in the interests of the mining community, and particularly those engaged working in the mines. We know that it is against their interests, and I do appeal to my hon. and gallant Friend to make it clear where this expenditure is to end and to furnish to the Committee a detailed statement of the cost to the State of the various undertakings carried out by the late Government against the interests of the miners and in the interests of other people.
The information given in the White Paper seems rather meagre, and I would like to put a few questions to the Minister. Is it a fact that there were millions of tons of coal stored on Salisbury Plain at the time that this coal was bought? Is it a fact that there were 300,000,000 tons stored at the different railway sidings? Can the Minister inform us how many tons of coal were bought? What was the price paid and what was the price of British coal at that time? Was it more or less? Can the Minister inform us what the coal was used for? Was it used to generate steam for engines, or for domestic purposes, or for making coke? Can the Minister inform us what was the calorific value of the coal and what was its heating property? What was the coking index? Was it bituminous, anthracite, or what?
I will do my best to answer the various questions which have been put to me, though I cannot answer them all. I can only plead that I was not in any way responsible for the transaction, and that I can only give the information which has been supplied to me. Hon. Members are anxious about the many Estimates that have been brought forward, but I can assure them that, so far as the purchase of coal is concerned, this is absolutely final. If the book-keeping had been a little more expeditious, there need have been no Supplementary Estimate this year. It is only because the transaction overlaps into this year that we have this Supplementary Estimate. I will try to explain, and, in doing so, I think I shall answer a good many of the questions put to me by the hon. Member for East Rhondda (Lieut.-Colonel Watts-Morgan). I can assure hon. Gentlemen that I have nothing on earth to conceal in the matter. The original sum voted, as stated in the Paper, was £7,275,000. Of that, £6,734,000 was spent and £6,496,000 was got back by the sale of coal. The hon. Member asked me where the amount that was spent is shown. I can only say that that amount was voted last year and that the Government had authority to spend up to that amount. They did not spend up to that amount, and the loss that they made was covered by the Vote then given. The actual net loss was £238,000. I can imagine that hon. Members find it rather difficult to understand, because I found it extraordinarily difficult. It is all a question of accounting. You are not allowed to say that you spent £6,734,000 and set against it the sum of £6,496,000 which was got back. You have to put in what you actually spent and treat the other as Exchequer receipts. The result is that the £9,000 which overlaps into this year and which the Committee is being asked to vote to-day represents £6,000 which will be lost and £3,000 which we hope to recover. Under this system, however, the £9,000 to be paid out has all to be voted, and you are not allowed to set against it the £3,000 which you hope to recover. There is therefore only £6,000 to add to the loss made previously. I hope that that is perfectly clear.
No, indeed it is not. I am worse off still.
The hon. Gentleman would lead us to suppose that the loss was £247,000. That is not correct.
The total loss on the whole transaction was £238,000. As I have said, the transaction overlaps into this financial year, and, therefore, this £9,000 has to be voted in this financial year, because we cannot work the finances of last year into those of this year. The total loss was £238,000, and the £9,000 which the Committee is now being asked to vote includes £6,000 of that loss. We have to prepare for £9,000, but we expect to get, back £3,000, and the balance of £6,000 has to be added to the £232,000 spent last last year, making £238,000.
The explanation of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, if he will allow me to say so, places us in more confusion than ever. My question was where, and at what time, is the total loss of £238,000 on this transaction shown in any Estimate or Appropriation-in-Aid Vote in this House? It seems as though the Government book-keeping is invented for the purpose of confusing Members, and, if what the hon. and gallant Gentleman says now is correct, then, undoubtedly, that is so. We are asked to vote £9,000. Already £229,000 has been had at some time between last year and this year. This additional £9,000 makes up the £238,000, and we are told that actually £6,000 of this is to pay for the loss on the purchase of the coal, and that £3,000 is going somewhere else.
The hon. and gallant Member is not so correct in his figures now as he was a short time ago. He did the sum quite accurately a short time ago, but on this occasion he is wrong. The amount lost last year was £232,000, and £6,000 has to be found out of this £9,000 which is being asked for now. It is necessary to vote the £9,000 because that amount has to be paid, but we shall get back £3,000, and therefore the net loss is only £6,000.
If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will only tell us now when and where and in what Vote or account we can find the £232,000, with the £6,000 that he says is going to be taken out of this £9,000, I shall be quite satisfied.
The hon. and gallant Member will have no difficulty. He will find that in the previous financial year £7,275,000 was voted, and what was spent comes out of that Vote. There is, however, only a loss of £232,000 on that year, and I think that on that account those responsible ought to be given credit for having done rather well. I was asked to give the total amount of coal sold. It was 1,850,000 tons. The price paid for it was a price covering the cost of the coal itself and of transport and other expenses. It was sold at a little above cost price to public undertakings for the general maintenance of public utility services, such as gas, food, and the various needs of the public. There was practicably no loss up to the end of the stoppage. When the stoppage came to an end it came to an end very suddenly, and obviously provision had had to be made for some time ahead. Therefore there was a large stock on hand, and that stock had to be sold for what it would fetch. At that time there was competition with British coal, and the result was the loss that I have shown.
Various other questions have been asked, but I do not think they were very seriously intended. With regard, however, to the question put by the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. C. Edwards), there was no question of subsidising private companies. What happened was that these various companies were used as agents for the Government in the purchase of coal and its distribution to the public. They charged the ordinary commission and. nothing more, their accounts were audited, and I am assured that the whole transaction was perfectly regular, without any question of subsidising at all. I hope I have now made the matter clear, and I should like to assure hon. Members that this is absolutely the final Estimate in regard to it.
Was there not, in effect, a subsidy in this case? There was, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman has said, a quantity of coal left over, and the stoppage terminated very suddenly, with the result that that coal had to be sold at a lower price. If these companies had contracted with anyone else they would have had to take the coal until the whole was delivered under their contract. Should they not have done the same with the Government? Had they done so, this loss would not have occurred.
There was no such contract. They were merely acting as agents for the Government.
The Committee ought to have more ample information than has yet been given by the Minister as to how this deficit has arisen. Here is a Government which sets itself up in the coal business during the lock-out, when there was a famine in coal, when there were no competitors, and when they had the entire nation at their feet; and yet, at the end of the dispute, which lasted some three months, when not a ton of coal had been got in this country, except for some special purposes, for three months, and when they had the entire monopoly of the coal trade of this country, the Government, having bought coal from abroad to the amount of millions of pounds, had not the business acumen to sell that coal at a profit and not at a loss. The Minister—with whom, I may say, I have a great deal of sym- pathy, because he was not at the Mines Department at the time and had nothing to do with this business, though he was supporting the Government who were responsible for it—stated that at the end of the stoppage there was, naturally, a stock of this coal on hand, and that, owing to the competition of British coal, there was a loss of £238,000. Are we to understand that the Government cut their price so fine that they had no margin or reserve? Did they not know that they might have a surplus of coal on hand at the end of the dispute?
I think no Government has displayed less business acumen, has shown more incompetency in dealing with a situation of this kind, than the last Government, and I am surprised that hon. Members on the Government side who go in for economy are not up in arms against the Ministry on this Estimate, but that it is left to the Labour party to challenge the Government on the matter. I think the Government deserve the censure of the House, and I hope they will not get this Estimate. As far as I am concerned, if it goes to a Division, they will not get my vote, at any rate. This transaction throws a flood of light on Government trading. Of course I myself never expect a capitalist Government, when they are handling social questions or any questions of business, to show any satisfactory results to the nation; but here we have a case in which one would think it would be difficult for a Government to make a loss at all, and yet they make a loss on the transaction of nearly a quarter of a million. The House, if it looked after the real interests of the people, would not give the Government this Vote. I think the Government have forfeited every atom of respect from the Members of the House.
I should like to ask when we received this coal for which we are asked to pass this Vote of £9,000. According to the printed estimate, we are asked to vote £9,000 for the purchase and importation of coal due to the mining dispute, but it is well known that there was more coal imported into this country after the dispute was settled than there was during the dispute. The dispute ended at the beginning of July, and the collieries restarted on the 4th July, and yet 5,000,000 tons of coal were imported into this country during July. During October, over 600,000 tons of coal were imported into this country, and during December, 1921, over 100 tons of coal were imported into this country—six months after the dispute ended. We are asked to vote this £9,000 for coal imported during the dispute, and the Minister should be able to tell us when this coal was really imported into the country, whether this Estimate is not wrong—and I ask you, Sir, to rule that it is wrong—and whether the coal was imported into this country, not during the dispute as the Estimate says, but rather after the dispute. We are going to vote against this £9,000, because of the mean action of the Government in assisting the coalowners to defeat the miners and drive the miners into starvation.
I beg to move, that the Vote be reduced by £100.
I move this reduction because of the very unsatisfactory replies of the Secretary for Mines. I have rarely listened to such an unsatisfactory financial statement as we have heard from the hon. and gallant Gentleman. I do not suggest, of course, that he is personally responsible for it, but here is a small sum of £9,000, and we are not certain whether it does not mean £9,000,000. So far as the hon. and gallant Gentleman's statement goes, it might mean £9,000,000. He has confessed to us that there are two sums in this £9,000, a sum of £6,000 and another sum of £3,000. He can put his finger upon one of the two, but on the other he cannot. We shall certainly not support this Estimate until he discovers the other sum.
I beg to second the Amendment. Although one is bound—
It is not necessary that the Amendment should be seconded.
While one is bound to confess some sympathy towards the hon. and gallant Gentleman, one is bound to recognise the fact that hon. Members who are persistently telling Members of the Labour party of their incapacity, ought not to be exhibiting their business weaknesses in such a flagrant manner. I should like to know from the Secretary for Mines who were the responsible parties for ordering the coal to be purchased, from what country it actually came, and also if, during the transport of the coal from the countries whence it came, there was any noticeable increase in freightage charges? If we could only get the responsible person who ordered the coal, we should at least be able to analyse the financial ramifications and see whether or not the £238,000 which the Government lost found its way into the pockets of any individual or company by whom the order was actually collected. After all, not only have the Government incurred a loss of the £238,000, tout we are told the quality of the coal caused the destruction of some £750,000 worth of retorts. From that point of view at least, those people who were responsible for purchasing the coal, regardless of the causes that led up to the purchase, showed very bad business capacity in buying coal that caused so much destruction in various directions. In these circumstances one wonders, since over £7,000,000 was expended on coal during the lock-out, what the Government would have done had it continued for 12 months or a year or two. Would they have continued to purchase coal in a similar manner and lost money wholesale, as they did in that period? Figures have been submitted indicating that while the Government were prepared to lose money in one direction they were not prepared to render assistance in other directions, and we have on record instances during the life of the present Government where they were actually willing to lend hundreds of thousands of pounds for the purpose of sinking collieries at a very low rate of interest. They will take the taxpayers' money for private companies to sink collieries, and, if profits are forthcoming, the private owners of the collieries will receive them, but if losses are incurred the taxpayer again has the comforting thought that he has to meet the bill. If the Government are prepared to open their Exchequer for the purpose of loans to private firms to sink collieries, they ought to consider the advisability of owning these collieries themselves, when they would at least be able to avoid lock-outs.
The hon. Member is travelling beyond the scope of the Vote.
I am sorry to have transgressed. The losses which have been incurred have been incurred by some agents of the Government. We ought to know who these people are. We ought to know what was the difference in the price of the coal which could have been purchased against the coal which was actually purchased, and what was the increase in freightage during that period. If we can get these answers I am convinced, recognising the difficulty of the Government at that moment, we may perhaps change our mind, but not until an answer is given.
The previous speaker has covered most of the ground on which I desired information. It seems to me that £8 per ton is a very large price to pay for coal. If I understood the Minister for Mines aright, he said 850,000 tons were purchased.
I said 1,850,000.
If you divide that by two, it brings it to £3 15s. a ton. That seems to me a large price. I understand from my hon. Friends on my right that the hewers get 2s. 6d. per ton for getting it out of the ground. [HON. MEMBERS: "Less than that!"] We ought to look very closely into the question of the price of this coal. Was a purchasing department set up by the Government? I understand in the Admiralty there are officers who are accustomed to purchasing large quantities of coal. Was their advice obtained or their assistance used in the purchase of these large quantities of coal? In our district, steamers that were furnished with this bunker coal were unable to put to sea, and if they did go to sea they had to make for the nearest port burning their derricks and the woodwork on their decks. Was the assistance of experienced officers of the Mines Department taken with regard to the calorific quality of the coal? These are points on which the Committee ought to be given the fullest information, because these circumstances may arise again in the future. I understand from their representatives that the miners are far from satisfied now with their conditions, and it may come again to a stoppage, strike or lock-out, whichever word we may use. The shipping industry has become seriously involved. The question of policy, which is ruled out of order, by which these disputes might be settled before they start, to use an Irishman's expression, would seem to a simple man like myself the best way of saving this expense. I should like information on these points: Were the purchasing officers of the other Government Departments or the Mines Department officials consulted as to the quality of the coal, and can some explanation be given of the high price paid, especially in view of the low wages which are paid in the industry?
I do not at all share the surprise which has been expressed that the Government should have adopted the course they did during the dispute with the miners. I am satisfied that in all these disputes, when we have a Government of that type in power, they will always take the side of the employing classes. What I am interested in is to ascertain as nearly as it is possible, by the extraction of information from an unwilling Department, how much it has cost the nation to subsidise the employing class in defeating the miners during that dispute. In the figures submitted to us here we are told the total disbursement amounted approximately to £6,734,000 and more than one speaker has pointed out that that is an excessive price to pay for coal. I want to know how much there was actually paid for coal and how much of it was paid in commission to the people employed unnecessarily by the Government in the purchase and distribution of the coal. If we can study the £238,000, which is the sum shown as the loss, we may find that it is not the loss at all in the sense that a thing is not lost when we know where it is. We may find that it is in the pockets of the agents employed by the Government in carrying on the work which, as has been so appropriately suggested by the last speaker, could have been more fittingly and competently carried on by present servants and Departments of the Government. I want the Minister to tell us how much of this £6,734,000 went in payment for coal and how much of it went in commission to the agents of the Government, and how much of it went in administrative expenses?
I regret the necessity of coming again to this Debate. The last time this was discussed I put in concrete form a number of questions to enable the hon. and gallant Gentleman to refresh his memory from the OFFICIAL REPORT. Yet he has only attempted to answer one of those questions. I am not so much discussing the question of figures, because I see the hopeless position in which the hon. and gallant Gentleman finds himself. It was like the teacher who asked his class, "If a bottle and a cork cost 75 and the cork was ·5 of the price of the goods, what was the price of corks if he bought a hundred at 5 per cent. discount?" I ask a specific question as to what happened to the coal which was left over when you had supplies of British coal. I indicated certain places which had been forced to take the coal. The moment they got English or Scotch coal they had to pay for the carrying of it away as refuse at 1s. per ton. I also asked if he could state even approximately what was the amount in money of the damage done to retorts, furnace bars and other apparatus in which they tried to burn the American coal. I have had no reply to these things at all. Then I want to know, as I asked before, what was the actual increase to the consumers of gas in Britain by the fact of using that coal when one half of what was charged for in the cubic foot was air and not gas? That question has not been answered. It is not a question of £9,000 at all. It is a question running into millions once this matter is probed to the bottom, and the Secretary of Mines has tried to build up a barrier against the honest determination of the men on these benches to get at the truth of the matter. We know we cannot retrieve the money that is in the various pockets it had to go through before you got the coal, but surely we are entitled to know the actual facts of the case. You begin by saying you have an estimate amounting to £7,275,000. Then you give receipts for sales, but you do not say whether that was from the sale of the coal itself or for the inclusive profit on the sale, because we were told at the time through the Press and from the Government Benches that during the lockout the whole of the nation interested in the crushing of the miner down below the 1914 standard was being found to work out in this way, that everyone in the coal trade was called upon to do something to help the nation in distress. What was the amount they got in commission for helping the nation in distress? I know what happened in Glasgow in regard to commissions. I know that gambling went on while a boat was coming up the Clyde with coal. These are the commercial men who come forward and talk about incapacity to govern. I do not say much as to their incapacity to govern, but I can say a great deal about their capacity to take advantage of those who do not see what they are doing behind the scenes. This is not simply a question of £9,000; it is a question of moral responsibility to the nation on behalf of men who claim to be representing the nation. It is not only a question of the coal trade lockout; it is a question of taking a mean advantage. We, therefore, ask the Secretary for Mines, if he cannot answer our question, to say that he cannot, and then we shall know where we are.
Hon. Members opposite talk about incapacity to govern, and they attack the capitalists. I know what happened during the coal dispute, and I would ask the hon. Member for Shettlestone (Mr. Wheatley) what the Corporation of Glasgow did when they could not get coal in this country? They applied to America, Did they themselves order the coal from the Pocohontas Company, or from anybody else?
There is no Pocohontas Company.
There is Pocohontas coal.
If the hon. Member knew more, he would not call it the Pocohontas Company.
The coal is Pocohontas, and when I say "the company," I mean the people who own the Pocohontas coal.
There are a great many.
The coal was bought by the Government through the best agents that the Government could get—very reliable agents in this country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who were they?"] Hon. Members can get a note from the Secretary for Mines as to who they were.
We have asked for the names.
One hon. Member on the other side showed his ignorance by marvelling that the price of the coal was £3 15s. Those who got the coal at £3 15s. were very lucky. The Clyde Trust, of which I am Chairman, had either to stop the whole harbour operations or to get coal where best they could. We got it from America, and those who bought and sold the coal for the Clyde Trust got no commission whatever. I was instrumental in supplying a lot of coal. Do hon. Members think that as Chairman of the Clyde Trust I was going to take a commission?
Not as Chairman of the Clyde Trust.
The hon. Member must not impute dishonest motives.
I was talking about agents and not about men who are supposed to occupy positions such as that of Chairman of the Clyde Trust. We hope you are above that sort of thing.
The great corporations which I name are honourable. No one, whether he be a commercial man or a Labour man, can or ought to expect the Government to do as well in these matters as private enterprise. If it costs a Government or a public body more than it costs a private individual to buy coal or anything else, it is nothing much to be wondered at, so long as it is done honestly and to the best of their ability. The Government were in a very difficult position. When hon. Members talk about surplus coal coming in after the dispute was over, I would remind them that people have to look ahead. After a dispute ends you cannot cancel your contracts with impunity. You cannot say: "We do not want any more of your stuff. Keep your cargo." The cargoes were on the high seas, and the Government was landed with a considerable quantity of coal after the fight was over. Everybody expected that. It is quite wrong to criticise them on that point.
I join issue with the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Sir W. Raeburn) with regard to what occurred in connection with purchases made by the Glasgow Corporation of American coal during the miners' dispute. The Glasgow Corporation certainly made large purchases of coal from America. That coal was received at the Glasgow Gas Works, and we who were members of the committee responsible for the operations of that department found that the coal was of no value whatever for tie making of gas. Moreover, very large stacks of coal which were lying at the gas works went on fire, and that involved the Corporation in very considerable loss.
Whose fault was that?
I do not blame the American coal miner; I do not blame the American coal exporter; I do not blame the miner at home; but I do blame the inefficiency and incompetency of those who were responsible for the importation of such coal, which they knew was of no value for gas-making purposes. That brings us to the point which I regard as the most crucial, and that is the question of efficiency. The hon. Member for Dumbarton has repudiated indignantly the allegation of dishonesty. I do not share the views which may be held by some in regard to dishonest motives on the part of those sitting opposite, but I do say that when persons engaged in the coal trade, or in any other industry, receive commissions, or receive any payment for services rendered, whether they be excessive or not, although it may not be regarded as dishonest, it is Capitalism. That is the kind of thing that is associated with capitalism. That is our charge against capitalism, because we say that capitalism only exists by exploiting the interests of the community. About that there can be no doubt.
On the question of efficiency, the Secretary for Mines has endeavoured to explain the bookkeeping accounts of the Department. With regard to that, it is very interesting to know that the hon. Member for Dumbarton spoke of the ignorance of Members on this side on the question of coal and cognate subjects. I do not wish to be disrespectful to the Secretary for Mines, but I say, with very great deference, that his knowledge of coal mining and cognate questions is no greater than is the knowledge of Members on this side; indeed, if I may say so, it is very much more limited. Why a gentleman who has no knowledge of the mining industry should be promoted to such an important position on the Government side is beyond my comprehension. The Secretary for Mines does not regard the position as a sinecure, and it will become less and less a sinecure if he repeats the observations to which he has given utterance in regard to this Estimate
We are told that we are only dealing with a sum of £9,000 which has accrued as a result of overlapping, or a surplus as between the last financial year and this. Are we not entitled to ask when a Supplementary Estimate of this kind is before us involving only £9,000—which, after all, is a large sum from the point of view of the taxpayers who are so sorely harassed and embarrassed—what was it that gave rise to this unnecessary overlapping? Is there any incompetency on the financial side? Is there any incompetency so far as the bookkeeping operations of the company are concerned? It is competent and relevant to submit points in regard to the amount of coal involved in this sum of £9,000, and to ask the uses to which that coal has been put. We are entitled to ask for information, not in the interests of our constituent merely, but in the interests of the nation, as to the quality of the coal which was received. Was the experience of the Glasgow Corporation repeated with regard to the operations of the Mines Department?
I do not trouble myself for the moment about commissions. These things are common to the commercial operations of industry. I am more concerned as to whether the coal imported was of any value to those who purchased the coal. Was it used for gas making purposes, and if so what was the result? Are any of the accidents which have been referred to in the public Press, and which hon. Members on both sides of the House deplore, due to the production of poisonous elements from coal which was of no value? These are questions of very great importance, and we are entitled to more weighty consideration of them from the Secretary for Mines. The Department is deserving of the most severe castigation for having engaged in operations of this kind. It has been pointed out that the miners were suffering unnecessarily and harshly because of the attitude adopted by the coalowners. The coalowners were supported by the late Government, perhaps the most reactionary Government of our times. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Hon. Members opposite are evidently penitent. They supported the late Government, they still have a fellow feeling for the late Government who, for the time being, perhaps temporarily, sit below the Gangway on this side.
5.0 P.M.
Many right hon. and hon. Members opposite have been returned by constituents who were informed that it was intended to preserve, as far as possible, economy in the various Government Departments. If there is to be economy, let us have an illustration of it so far as this Estimate is concerned. We on these benches are the custodians of the national purse, and we are true economists, because we do not believe in spending money unnecessarily or unwisely. I hope hon. Members opposite will support these views, and if they do, perhaps there will be a more fraternal feeling between the benches. But there does not appear to be any desire for economy expressed in the Supplementary Estimates which have been before us during the past few days. In this matter I submit that there is very great responsibility resting on the hon. Gentleman. If in the course of the next few months he desires to prove to the country that he is capable of superintending or administering the affairs of this Department in the most efficient manner, then he must on this occasion demonstrate clearly that he knows what this Estimate is for and show that it is justifiable.
In connection with American coal, I know that in the United States the coal there does the work which the people who purchase it expect it to do. The Secretary for Mines should tell us whether they bought coal or rubbish, such as some hon. Gentlemen here know we sent to Belgium after the Armistice. I have seen them lifting rubbish heaps in which there was not 1 per cent. of coal to send across the sea. Was the same system adopted in this case, because my experience of American coal is that it is very good coal, and in the particular districts where the coal comes from it serves a very good purpose. I do not think that we should have any difficulty in getting information on this point after the appeal made by the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Sir W. Raeburn). He said there would be no difficulty in our getting to know who bought the coal, the terms on which it was bought, and if it was coal that was bought or rubbish heaps. In addition, we want to know something about the cost of transport in connection with this coal. I have a great deal of sympathy with the Minister, but I do not think he should feel too much pleased about that, because he was a member, not of the Government, but of the party which carried out the transaction, and when it was attacked at that time he was sitting on those benches defending the people who carried out the transaction. Economy should be preached and practised in this House just as much as it is preached at bye-elections in the country. If it were put into practice here, the country would gain much advantage, but if it is reserved for electioneering tactics, and the Government then throw away money without giving any information, it is a bad policy. This thing happened in 1921, but it may happen again. We want the information, and there should be no difficulty in supplying it.
The Secretary for Mines ought to be able to clear up this matter in five minutes. If we examine the figures we find in the Supplementary Estimates of 1921–22 that there would be a withdrawal, if necessity arises, of £7,275,000. It is stated in the accounts that the approximate disbursements were £6,734,000 and the balance is £541,000. When you take the approximate disbursements, £6,734,000, and the actual coal sold, £6,496,000, you find an actual difference on the loss between those figures of £238,000. If you subtract this figure from the £541,000 you find a difference of £303,000. Has the £303,000 been put to the credit side of the account? If the figure £7,275,000 has been actually debited in the Supplementary Estimates, then what we want to make the thing balance is this £303,000, if it has not been expended and has been charged in the accounts it ought to be on the credit side. Taking those figures we find that the actual figure that ought to be debited in the account up to date is £6,972,000 on the figures stated, but in the figures themselves we find £6,734,000, or a difference of £238,000. The Minister's duty is to know exactly what figure has been put on the debit side of the account, and if he tells us that then we shall be able to know where we are. He should be able in three minutes to tell us where the figures are and where the missing money is. There may be no money missing, and the hon. Gentleman may be able to explain it, but his duty is to tell us how the figures balance. This document does not show the figures balancing. Before this Vote is passed the Minister should balance the figures with those in the previous Estimate. Until that has been done we have no right to vote more money. Knowing something as I do about the 1921 strike—[HON. MEMBERS: "Lockout!"]—I have called it a strike as there have been so many that we have the word off by heart, but at the same time this was a lock-out.
This is not the time to go into the question whether it was a strike or lock-out.
I admit that you are perfectly right, but hon. Members tried to draw me off the line, and I am to blame for being drawn. At the same time I adhere to what has been said, that it was a lock-out. I do not know why there should be any loss whatever on coal dur-
ing that stoppage. Everybody knows that the coal which was in this country or which came from abroad, to fill requirements as fast as could be, fetched almost any figure asked for, and why there should be any loss owing to the difference between the price paid and the price realised, I cannot tell unless there was a tremendous amount of expense incurred somewhere to make up that figure. The hon. Gentleman should explain what was given for the coal purchased, what was the tonnage that passed, what was the price paid per ton, and what was the price received for the coal. Unless the Ministry give the necessary information we shall have no confidence in any future accounts placed before us, and shall feel it incumbent on us to scrutinise them, and to demand verification of them in every detail.
Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £8,900, be granted for the said Service."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 149; Noes, 258.
Division No. 15.] AYES. [5.14 p.m. Adams, D. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Muir, John W. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Murnin, H. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Groves, T. Newbold, J. T. W. Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Grundy, T. W. Nichol, Robert Attlee, C. R. Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth) O'Grady, Captain James Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Oliver, George Harold Barnes, A. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Paling, W. Batey, Joseph Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Parker, H. (Hanley) Bonwick, A. Hancock, John George Phillipps, Vivian Briant, Frank Harbord, Arthur Ponsonby, Arthur Broad, F. A. Hardie, George D. Potts, John S. Bromfield, William Harris, Percy A. Pringle, W. M. R. Brotherton, J. Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A (N'castle, E.) Riley, Ben Buchanan, G. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Ritson, J. Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Herriotts, J. Roberts, C. H. (Derby) Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Hill, A. Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Hirst, G. H. Rose, Frank H. Cairns, John Irving, Dan Royce, William Stapleton Cape, Thomas Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Saklatvala, S. Charleton, H. C. John, William (Rhondda, West) Salter, Dr. A. Clarke, Sir E. C. Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Serymgeour, E. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Sexton, Jarres Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Collins, Pat (Walsall) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Shinwell, Emanuel Collison, Levi Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Kirkwood, D. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Darbishire, C. W. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Simpson, J. Hope Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Lansbury, George Smith, T. (Pontefract) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lawson, John James Snell, Harry Dudgeon, Major C. R. Leach, W. Snowden, Philip Duffy, T. Gavan Lee, F. Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.) Dunnico, H. Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Stephen, Campbell Edmonds, G. Linfield, F. C. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Sullivan, J. Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) M'Entee, V. L. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Entwistle, Major C. F. McLaren, Andrew Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Falconer, J. Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Foot, Isaac Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Gosling, Harry Maxton, James Thornton, M. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Millar, J. D. Trevelyan, C. P. Gray, Frank (Oxford) Morel, E. D. Wallhead, Richard C. Greenall, T. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Warne, G. H. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Whiteley, W. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Webb, Sidney Wignall, James Wright, W. Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Weir, L. M. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Welsh, J. C. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Mr. J. Robertson and Mr. Lunn. Wheatley, J. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Evans, Ernest (Cardigan) Lorden, John William Ainsworth, Captain Charles Evans, Capt H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) Lorimer, H. D. Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark) Falcon, Captain Michael Lort-Wllliams, J. Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Lougher, L. Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Fawkes, Major F. H. Lowe, Sir Francis William Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Fermor-Hesketh, Major T. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) Flanagan, W. H. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Astor, Viscountess Ford, Patrick Johnston Maddocks, Henry Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Forestier-Walker, L. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Fraser, Major Sir Keith Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Manville, Edward Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Furness, G. J. Margesson, H. D. R. Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague Ganzoni, Sir John Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Barnett, Major Richard W. Gardiner, James Mercer, Colonel H. Barnston, Major Harry Gates, Percy Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Becker, Harry Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Gilbert, James Daniel Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Goff, Sir R. Park Molloy, Major L. G. S. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Gould, James C. Molson, Major John Elsdale Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Gray, Harold (Cambridge) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Murchison, C. K. Berry, Sir George Greenwood, William (Stockport) Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Nall, Major Joseph Blades, Sir George Rowland Gretton, Colonel John Nesbitt, J. C. Blundell, F. N. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Gwynne, Rupert S. Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Brass, Captain W. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Brassey, Sir Leonard Halstead, Major D. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Brittain, Sir Harry Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Nield, Sir Herbert Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Harrison, F. C. Paget, T. G. Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Harvey, Major S. E. Parker, Owen (Kettering) Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge) Hawke, John Anthony Pennefather, De Fonblanque Butcher, Sir John George Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Penny, Frederick George Butt, Sir Alfred Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Cadogan, Major Edward Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Perkins, Colonel E. K. Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Peto, Basil E. Cautley, Henry Strother Hewett, Sir J. P. Pielou, D. P. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Pilditch, Sir Philip Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hiley, Sir Ernest Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hinds, John Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Raeburn, Sir William H. Chapman, Sir S. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Raine, W. Churchman, Sir Arthur Hood, Sir Joseph Rankin, Captain James Stuart Clayton, G. C. Hopkins, John W. W. Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Cobb, Sir Cyril Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Remnant, Sir James Collie, Sir John Hudson, Capt. A. Reynolds, W. G. W. Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Hughes, Collingwood Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Conway, Sir W. Martin Hume, G. H. Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Cope, Major William Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall) Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Hurd, Percy A. Robertson, J. D. (Islington, W.) Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Hutchison, G. A. C. (Peebles, N.) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North) Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Crooke, J. S. (Deritend) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Curzon, Captain Viscount Jarrett, G. W. S. Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton) Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) Sandon, Lord Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Jephcott, A. R. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh) Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Shepperson, E. W. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Shipwright, Captain D. Dawson, Sir Philip Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Sinclair, Sir A. Doyle, N. Grattan Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Sparkes, H. W. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring King, Captain Henry Douglas Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. Edmondson, Major A. J. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Spender-Clay, Lleut.-Colonel H. H. Ednam, Viscount Lamb, J. Q. Steel, Major S. Strang Ellis, R. G. Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir P. Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Vaughan-Morgan, Col K. P. Winterton, Earl Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Wallace, Captain E. Wise, Frederick Sturrock, J. Leng Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Wolmer, Viscount Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Waring, Major Walter Wood, Rt. Hn. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Sutcliffe, T. Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Wells, S. R. Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Thomson, Luke (Sunderland) Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Yerburgh, R. D. T. Titchfield, Marquess of Whitla, Sir William Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Willey, Arthur TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Tubbs, S. W. Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Turton, Edmund Russborough Windsor, Viscount
Original Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 263; Noes, 151.
Division No. 16.] AYES. [5.25 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Dawson, Sir Philip Hume, G. H. Ainsworth, Captain Charles Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark) Doyle, N. Grattan Hurd, Percy A. Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Edmondson, Major A. J. Hutchison, G. A. C. (Peebles, N.) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Ednam, Viscount Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) Ellis, R. G. Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Astor, Viscountess England, Lieut.-Colonel A. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Jarrett, G. W. S. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Evans, Ernest (Cardigan) Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) Jephcott, A. R. Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Falcon, Captain Michael Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Barnett, Major Richard W. Fawkes, Major F. H. Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Barnston, Major Harry Fermor-Hesketh, Major T. Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Becker, Harry Flanagan, W. H. King, Captain Henry Douglas Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Ford, Patrick Johnston Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Forestier-Walker, L. Lamb, J. Q. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Fraser, Major Sir Keith Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Furness, G. J. Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir P. Berry, Sir George Galbraith, J. F. W. Lorden, John William Birchall, Major J. Dearman Ganzoni, Sir John Lorimer, H. D. Blundell, F. N. Gardiner, James Lort-Williams, J. Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Gates, Percy Lougher, L. Brass, Captain W. Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Lowe, Sir Francis William Brassey, Sir Leonard George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Gilbert, James Daniel Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Brittain, Sir Harry Goff, Sir R. Park Maddocks, Henry Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Gould, James C. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Gray, Harold (Cambridge) Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Manville, Edward Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge) Greenwood, William (Stockport) Margesson, H. D. R. Butcher, Sir John George Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford) Butt, Sir Alfred Gretton, Colonel John Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Cadogan, Major Edward Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Mercer, Colonel H. Campion, Lieut. Colonel w. R. Guthrie, Thomas Maule Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Cautley, Henry Strother Gwynne, Rupert S. Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Halstead, Major D. Molloy, Major L. G. S. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Molson, Major John Elsdale Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Chapman, Sir S. Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Churchman, Sir Arthur Harrison, F. C. Murchison, C. K. Clayton, G. C. Harvey, Major S. E. Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Cobb, Sir Cyril Hawke, John Anthony Nall, Major Joseph Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Nesbitt, J. C. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Collie, Sir John Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Conway, Sir W. Martin Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Cope, Major William Hewett, Sir J. P. Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Nield, Sir Herbert Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Hiley, Sir Ernest Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Hinds, John Paget, T. G. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Parker, Owen (Kettering) Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North) Hood, Sir Joseph Penny, Frederick George Crooke, J. S. (Deritend) Hopkins, John W. W. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Curzon, Captain Viscount Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Perkins, Colonel E. K. Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton) Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Peto, Basil E. Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Howard-Bury, Lieut-Col. C. K. Philipson, H. H. Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh) Hudson, Capt. A. Pielou, D. P. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Hughes, Collingwood Pilditch, Sir Philip Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Shipwright, Captain D. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Waring, Major Walter Raeburn, Sir William H. Sinclair, Sir A. Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Ralne, W. Sparkes, H. W. Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Rankin, Captain James Stuart Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. Wells, S. R. Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Steel, Major S. Strang Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Whitla, Sir William Reid, D. D. (County Down) Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) Willey, Arthur Remnant, Sir James Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Reynolds, W. G. W. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Windsor, Viscount Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Winterton, Earl Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Sturrock, J. Leng Wise, Frederick Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Wolmer, Viscount Robertson, J. D. (Islington, W.) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Wood, Rt. Hn. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Sutcliffe, T. Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Thomson, Luke (Sunderland) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Titchfield, Marquess of Yerburgh, R. D. T. Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich) Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Tubbs, S. W. Sandon, Lord Turton, Edmund Russborough TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Shepperson, E. W. Wallace, Captain E.
NOES. Adams, D. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Riley, Ben Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hancock, John George Ritson, J. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Harbord, Arthur Roberts, C. H. (Derby) Attlee, C. R. Hardie, George D. Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Harris, Percy A. Rose, Frank H. Barnes, A. Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Royce, William Stapleton Batey, Joseph Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) Saklatvala, S. Bonwick, A. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Salter, Dr. A. Briant, Frank Herriotts, J. Scrymgeour, E. Broad, F. A. Hill, A. Sexton, James Bromfield, William Hirst, G. H. Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Brotherton, J. Irving, Dan Shinwell, Emanuel Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Buchanan, G. John, William (Rhondda, West) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Simpson, J. Hope Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Smith, T. (Pontefract) Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Snell, Harry Cairns, John Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Snowden, Philip Cape, Thomas Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Charleton, H. C. Kirkwood, D. Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.) Clarke, Sir E. C. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Stephen, Campbell Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lansbury, George Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Lawson, John James Sullivan, J. Collins, Pat (Walsall) Leach, W. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Collison, Levi Lee, F. Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Darbishire, C. W. Linfield, F. C. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Thornton, M. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) M'Entee, V. L. Trevelyan, C. P. Dudgeon, Major C. R. McLaren, Andrew Wallhead, Richard C. Duffy, T, Gavan March, S. Warne, G. H. Dunnico, H. Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Edmonds, G. Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Maxton, James Webb, Sidney Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) Millar, J. D. Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Entwistle, Major C. F. Morel, E. D. Weir, L. M. Fairbairn, R. R. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Welsh, J. C. Falconer, J. Muir, John W. Wheatley, J. Foot, Isaac Murnin, H. White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.) Gosling, Harry Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western) Whiteley, W. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Newbold, J. T. W. Wignall, James Gray, Frank (Oxford) Nichol, Robert Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Greenall, T. O'Grady, Captain James Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Oliver, George Harold Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Paling, W. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Parker, H. (Hanley) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Groves, T. Phillipps, Vivian Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Grundy, T. w. Ponsonby, Arthur Wright, W. Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Potts, John S. Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Pringle, W. M. R. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Mr. J. Robertson and Mr. Lunn.
Resolution to be reported To-morrow.
Committee to sit again To-morrow.
Report [26th February]
Resolutions reported:
Civil Services Supplementary Estimates, 1922–23
Class V
1. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1923, for the Expenses in connection with His Majesty's Embassies, Missions, and Consular Establishments Abroad, and other Expenditure chargeable to the Consular Vote, including a Grant-in-Aid, certain special Grants, the transport and relief of refugees in the Near East, and the possible evacuation of British subjects from Constantinople."
Unclassified Services
2. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £107,000, be granted to His Majesty, to deray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1923, for the Cost of certain Miscellaneous War Services."
Class V
3. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £32,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1923, for sundry Colonial Services, including certain Grants-in-Aid."
Class VI
4. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £11,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1923, for the Salaries and other Expenses of Royal Commissions, Committees, and Special Inquiries, &c, including provision for Shorthand."
Class V
5. "That a sum, not exceeding £6,828, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1923, to make good the net loss on transactions connected with the raising of money for the various Treasury Chests abroad in the year 1921–22."
Unclassified Services
6. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £200,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1923, for Claims in connection with Ships or Cargoes condemned as Naval Prize or detained."
Resolutions agreed to.
Dangerous Drugs and Poisons (Amendment) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
I think the House of Commons is entitled to some explanation from the Government in regard to the bringing forward of this Bill. We have passed a great number of Supplementary Estimates on the Report stage without a single voice being raised from these benches, but this particular Bill was only placed in the hands of hon. Members some 10 days ago and I think chemists and bonâ-fide traders through out the country are not fully seized of its provisions. If the House of Commons is asked by the Government to pass the Second Reading without a single word of explanation or comment from the responsible Minister of the Crown, surely it is bringing democratic government into disrepute and I wish to raise my voice against such a method being adopted in the present case.
I had no idea that the Estimates which preceded this Bill on the Order Paper would be gone through in such a short time. I have been in the House all day, but I have only just received notice of the course which the proceedings have taken, and I hope the House will accept my apology for not being in attendance sooner. The Bill to which I am going to ask the House to give a Second Reading will, I venture to think, meet with the approval of the vast majority of the Members of this House, if not of every single Member. Its object is to increase facilities and powers for dealing with the illicit traffic in drugs. This traffic is very largely of an international character. We believe a great deal of it is going on at the present time. Taking the chief provisions of the Bill in order, we are seeking, in Clause 1, for increased powers of search. Under our existing powers, any constable or other person duly authorised is empowered to enter the premises of any person carrying on the business of a producer, manufacturer, seller or distributor of drugs and inspect his books. That is not sufficient to meet the difficulties with which we are confronted now. If we can only search the premises of those who are known to be dealers in these articles, and of nobody else, we should miss all those persons who are carrying on this trade in secret places, very likely not professing to be dealers or producers of the articles. Accordingly, we ask for powers to search the premises, persons and papers of any person suspected of being in illicit possession of drugs, whether carrying on the trade openly or not, or suspected of having been engaged in carrying on illicit transactions either in this country or abroad. The second power for which we are asking—in Clause 2—is intended to bring within the penal provisions of the Bill acts done in this country with a view to illicit transactions abroad. It is quite open at the present time for a person here, who is carrying on this illicit traffic, to escape the consequences of his acts by arranging that the actual transaction shall take place abroad. Therefore we wish to bring within the penalties of this Measure those who are carrying out transactions in this country or are arranging to have them carried out in other parts of the world.
Which Sub-section is that?
Sub - section (1) ( d )— made by this illicit trade. In an instance which I heard of recently, it is believed that someone got as much as 2,400 ounces of morphine and 2,500 ounces of cocaine, which represents several million doses. It can be seen that this admits of an enormous profit being made, constituting an offence for which a fine of £200 is far from adequate. I should also like to say, in favour of increasing these penalties, that France has already set the example of increasing the penalties there, and the Council of the Assembly of the League of Nations recommended to the Governments concerned to consider the question of more substantial sentences of imprisonment. Therefore, we propose to substitute for the existing penalties a maximum penalty of 10 years' penal servitude, or a fine of £1,000, or both, in cases of conviction on indictment, and, secondly, a maximum penalty of 12 months' imprisonment, or a fine of £250, or both, in cases which are tried summarily, and we propose to do away with the provisions for increasing the penalty for a second offence.
I do not think there is very much else needed to explain the Bill on Second Reading, but in Clause 3 there are provisions which are meant to meet a difficulty which the Pharmaceutical Society brought to our notice in regard to supplying drugs to duly qualified medical practitioners. Under the Pharmacy Act, 1868, there was a "poison book," which everyone was expected to sign if they bought any of these drugs at a chemist's shop, but it was impossible in practice, I believe, to observe that provision, and I think it has been largely allowed to fall into disuse. What we wish to do under Clause 3 is to prevent, if we can, people professing to come for medical practitioners to order these drugs at chemists' shops, to make it quite clear that they are required by a medical practitioner, and to safeguard the transit between the shop and the practitioner, if we can. The seller has to enter in a book the words "signed order," instead of requiring the doctor to sign, and if the article is sent by post it must be sent by registered post, and it must not be sold to anybody except a registered medical practitioner in actual practice. There are certain other provisions for safeguarding the position as well as we can. It is quite possible, I think, in regard to this Clause, that some of the medical profession may wish to have some slight modification, which I shall be very ready to consider, but it is very important to rectify the position in which we find ourselves and in which we are left by the fact that Section 17 of the Pharmacy Act, 1868, really is not suitable to present conditions.
I hope the House will allow us to have the Second Reading of this Measure. I think it is the only way that we can tackle the very largo illicit transactions in these drugs, and by tackling them I hope we shall do something to clear away much of the misery and vice to which this traffic has led amongst the younger people in this country.
The Home Secretary, so far as I can understand from his speech, has not told us why it is necessary to introduce this Bill. Is it because the powers which the Home Office already possess have been ineffective? If so, I think there is some reason for the introduction of the Bill, but I must say that, on looking at the Bill for the first time, it is a very drastic Bill. I will take Clause 1, which says that a single justice of the peace, if
"satisfied by information on oath that there is reasonable ground for suspecting that any drugs to which this Act applies are, in contravention of the provisions of this Act or any regulations made thereunder, in the possession or under the control of any person in any premises,"—
now this is what strikes me as being rather drastic—
"or that any document directly or indirectly relating to or connected with any transaction or dealing which was, or any intended transaction or dealing which would if carried out be, an offence against this Act, or in the case of a transaction or dealing carried out or intended to be carried out in any place outside Great Britain, an offence against the provisions of any corresponding law in force in that place—."
It is rather muddled, all this, but under those circumstances which I have read, perhaps rather badly, a search warrant can be granted which empowers the premises to be entered by force and searched, and any persons found therein detained. Suppose a man comes to me and lays information on oath that in China there is a law which is in contradiction of something which he thinks is in my right hon. Friend's house, am I to grant an information and give powers of search? It seems to me that this very drastic and almost unintelligible provision will require amendment, as a penalty of £1,000 or penal servitude for 10 years or both seems to be rather a strong order. [An HON. MEMBER: "Bottomley."] He got only seven years, and I do not know that that has much to do with this. It seems to me that we are taking under this Bill enormous powers to inflict very severe penalties on people who may be implicated only in that on their premises may be found a document which indirectly relates to some transaction which is intended to be carried out. I think I am not reading that amiss. It is not a case of where a man is found in the act of selling cocaine, well knowing that he has no business to do so. In that case this might be right, but I think the Clause as it stands will want amending. In Clause 2, Sub-section (3), it states:
"For the purpose of removing doubts it is hereby declared—
( a ) that in any proceedings against any person for an offence against the Dangerous Drugs Act, 1920, as amended by this Act, it is not necessary to negative by evidence any licence, authority or other matter of exception or defence, and that the burden of proving any such matter lies on the person seeking to avail himself thereof."
What does that mean? Apparently it is an alteration of the criminal procedure of this country, and my own idea is—I have always said so—that any alteration of the criminal procedure of this country ought to be very carefully investigated before this House passes it. On the face of it, I do not quite know what those words do mean. Clause 3, which my right hon. Friend has explained, is, I presume, necessary because unless something of this sort were introduced a doctor or a veterinary surgeon who required cocaine for medical purposes might find himself in a very difficult position. I shall not oppose the Second Reading of the Bill, but I think it requires very careful amendment in Committee, especially on those points to which I have directed the attention of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
The right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) plays many rôles in this House, but it is somewhat amazing for some of us to hear him this afternoon as the champion of the cocaine and morphine sellers.
Nothing of the sort.
At all events, the right hon. Baronet's criticism, where he suggests that this Bill provides very drastic punishment for certain offences, at least suggests that in his opinion the punishment is too severe.
No. Perhaps I expressed myself badly, but what I said was that where a case was proved of a man or a woman selling cocaine, probably the penalty would be right. What I objected to—or, at any rate, I thought it required some explanation—was that where a man had a letter or a document in his house which indirectly might relate to the selling of cocaine by some other person, then I thought the penalty of £1,000 or 10 years' penal servitude, or both, was rather excessive.
The right hon. Baronet's further explanation rather modifies his original speech.
No. That is what I said originally.
The point I want to make is, first, that obviously this Bill is only introduced because the present law has absolutely failed.
We have not been told that.
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I do not think anyone who has followed recent Press reports, anyone who has followed some of the incidents taking place in connection with this matter recently, can be other than satisfied that the law has failed, and I would submit that I suppose there will be very few Bills introduced from that side of the House upon which we can congratulate the Government, but I certainly am going to congratulate them for tackling this very difficult and dangerous evil towards stopping which every Member of this House must feel that he would like to contribute something. At first sight, the punishment does appear severe. A fine of £1,000, or 10 years' penal servitude, or both, does at first sight appear somewhat drastic, but I would put it to the House that we have only to consider the life punishment that the victims of some of these people go through to realise that 10 years is not too severe, if the case is proved. The whole question turns, not so much upon the punishment, but as to how far the Home Office, when they get this power, as I believe they will get it in this Bill, are going to administer it. I do not believe that this subject can be dealt with except internationally. Recent events have proved conclusively that the Chinese colonies in all towns in this country are the places where this evil is most prevalent. I hope, therefore, the Home Secretary will not rest content with getting legislation to deal with the question, but will strengthen his staff to see that when the powers are given him, the Home Office will be in a position to deal with them. I would like to ask the Home Secretary one point of detail. I was surprised to hear his statement with regard to the chemists' register not being signed. I rather gathered from him that the new provision he suggests is at the instance of the Pharmaceutical Society.
They wish it to be put in.
The right hon. Gentleman followed it up by saying that the present law—for, I believe it is a law—which compels the book to be signed, is largely non-existent. I should be very much surprised to hear if that were so, but, after all, those are points which can be hammered out in Committee. So far as we on these benches are concerned, we give general consent, as well as a blessing, to a Bill which, we hope, will do something to stamp out one of the most serious evils of modern times.
I would like to begin by assuring the House that this Bill has my complete sympathy so far as its principles are concerned. I represent, however, a very much harassed and hardworking class of people, the general practitioners of medicine and surgery, and there are certain provisions in this Bill as it is now which bear very hardly upon medical men. For instance, with regard to these punishments, there is no provision for not giving a medical man a very severe punishment when he might be only guilty of a purely technical offence. That is a matter which, I hope, will be dealt with in Committee. Another great objection is that under the law as set out in the Bill it will be impossible for a medical man to obtain urgently needed drugs by asking for them over the telephone. Most of us in these days, when we go a great many miles—three, four, five or even 10—to see our patients, on arrival at the house, we often find that the patient is in urgent need of some drug mentioned in this Bill. A further great objection, which, I think, is more or less a slur upon the profession, is that a doctor may not prescribe drugs for himself, not necessarily for his own consumption, but for his own use in his practice, without going through all these technical arrangements, which will add very greatly to a doctor's work, because when a man requires this kind of drug, he is very often extremely busy. I am sure it is not the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to cause a doctor any further trouble than he is put to at present. I sincerely hope that these matters will be dealt with in Committee and that the suggestions I have made will be carried out.
I do not think that this Measure goes too far, as has been suggested by the hon. Gentleman on the other side. I think it is an exceedingly inconsistent Measure for the British Government to introduce, especially the Subsection of Clause 2 which says:
"Any person who in Great Britain aids, abets, counsels or procures the commission in any place outside Great Britain of any offence punishable under the provisions of any corresponding law in force in that place, or does any act preparatory to or in furtherance of any act which if committed in Great Britain would constitute an offence against this Act, shall be guilty of an offence against this Act."
There is one dangerous poison which has been effectively dealt with by a part of the world that is certainly not under our control, although that was once the case, and we, unfortunately, are verging very seriously to an endangerment of our peace relations with that same great nationality, namely, the United States of America, because there are forces in this country, very strongly represented on the other side of the House, exceedingly patriotic, keenly anxious to have us preserve law and order, but who are deliberately conniving, plotting, scheming, planning and doing everything possible to undermine a corresponding law to that which is sug- gested to this House to-day in that great nation. The penalties strike the hon. Gentleman on the other side as being exceedingly severe. I can quite understand that, because the day, perhaps, is not far distant when similar penalties may be enforced concerning this other dangerous poison. It must be observed that the anxiety here which has led to the introduction of this Measure is as to the serious damage that is being done, physically, mentally and morally by the use—not, as we often hear the absurd phrase, the abuse—of such concoction. You cannot abuse these concoctions; they can abuse you. It is the use of these dangerous elements that has produced results which have caused throughout the whole country a deep sense of sorrow and anxiety, and if the British Government are seriously concerned, because of what is, after all, so far as numbers of victims of these particular dangerous drugs are concerned, a mere bagatelle, and they are anxious to secure tranquillity, according to their own declarations both at home and abroad, I submit that these very circumstances strengthen the case that on another day I hope we shall be spared to consider, and, I will go the length of saying, support a Measure that would fit in properly with this one. It has been suggested many a time that the poison to which I refer acts as a soporific.
The hon. Member is anticipating. I have been looking at the Order Paper, and I see an interesting Bill set down for Friday, the 20th April, I rather think by the hon. Member himself.
I think so, too.
The hon. Member is not entitled, having given that notice, to anticipate a speech that will be appropriate to that occasion.
With all due deference, I suggest that it would be perfectly legitimate to insert in this Bill an Amendment dealing with this dangerous poison of which I speak.
May I ask to what poison the hon. Member is alluding?
I imagine the hon. and gallant Gentleman understands it too well. A man who does not understand that, ought never to have been sent here, and I hope a lot more of that kind will be cleared out before many years. We suffer from many obstacles and opposition, but unintelligent questions of that kind should be left for some Punch and Judy performance.
The hon. Member must not take too tragically a little humour.
Of course, I quite appreciate the humour. At the same time, I have a Scottish way of expressing mine. Allowing for the anticipation of the Committee stage, I shall be in order in saying that it might be said, on behalf of those who participate in the use of these particularly dangerous drugs and poisons, that they utilise them in order to try to forget that they actually exist in this great country, which we claim to be so much bent on the liberty of the subject that it enables them to forget their troubles and submerge the difficulties and harassing conditions by which they are confronted. I submit that we are entitled to see that no man's exercise of liberty interferes unduly with his neighbours. [An HON. MEMBER: "You want to do it!"] I am going to try to convince the hon. Member that it would be dangerous to us and other people. Here you have a claim put up by sections of the community that these things are perfectly legitimate for the purpose of securing, in some degree, alleviation either of physical or mental trouble. The Government says it matters not. They consider that, in the interests of humanity at large, it is absolutely essential that they should draw up what the hon. Member on the other side said was a drastic Bill I like the word "drastic" when you are dealing with poisons.
We have a most important set of propositions for the entire country to study in dealing with this question. They open up a great vista of most important considerations bearing on every social, economic, industrial, and international question. If we are in any degree to encourage, permit, sanction, or countenance a system whereby men are actually exploiting the weaknesses of mankind, it is diabolical. A set of circumstances that can bring any party, or any member of a political party, into this House to do so is bad. Those who are engaged in the business—whether it is specially licensed or unlicensed it does not matter—those men and women who are, unfortunately, utilising these weaknesses of mankind to secure large profits, as the right hon. Gen- tleman has said—and, speaking as he does for the Government, he deplores that fact, and this Measure is an emphasising of the reasons for deploring the fact—should suffer for it. Consequently, I am contending that we are bound to support this Measure, push it through, and follow it up in the most thoroughgoing and consistent manner in the interests of the nation at large.
As a member of a profession which is probably more affected by this Bill than any other, I wish to say a few words on it, and on the subject with which it deals. I suppose we medical men are more acquainted with the dangers, the temptations, and the horrors to which the drug-taker is exposed than any other portion of the community. We are, naturally, alive to the miseries and degradation caused by these pernicious habits, for we are called in to witness their effects, to prescribe for their results, and to endeavour to alleviate some of the sufferings that result from them.
Consequently, neither I nor any other member of my profession, I am sure, would wish to interfere with what I know is the intention of the Government, that is, to stop the illegal sale and improper use of these dangerous drugs as far as possible, and I certainly do not wish to oppose a Second Reading of this Bill, Having said that, however, I feel it incumbent upon me to point out that it will certainly require drastic amendment in Committee before it could possibly be made a useful and properly efficient Measure. One of the first things that strikes one on reading the Bill are the very heavy penalties which attach to any infraction of its provisions, and also that only two sets of penalties are provided, namely, a maximum fine of £1,000 and penal servitude for a period not exceeding 10 years, or both, on conviction on indictment, or on summary conviction a fine not exceeding £250, or imprisonment not exceeding 12 months, or both. Therefore, the slightest offence under the Act may be visited with the extreme penalty.
I can quite understand that in an illicit traffic like this, the monetary reward may be very great, and the trade in consequence be extremely lucrative. Therefore slight fines are useless, and the penalty should bear some proportion to the profits which can be made. Probably this is the reason that the Government have seen fit to make the maximum penalty very severe. But we must remember that this Bill and the Act to which it is an amending measure, create various offences other than the intentional and nefarious traffic in dangerous drugs. I cannot help feeling that it would be better, had the precedent of the Foods and Drugs Act been followed, and the various offences been scheduled and classified with appropriate maximum penalties attached to each. I am certain that this will sooner or later have to be done, or the Acts will eventually become a dead letter.
Consider the case of a doctor, who from carelessness or hurry amid professional emergencies, omits to make the proper entries in the books he is compelled to keep, or does not retain the invoices of the drugs he has bought or omits some other technicality when prescribing one of the many poisons which undoubtedly come under this Bill. He would be liable to be mulcted in a fine of £1,000 or to be imprisoned for 10 years, or both, just as if he had been guilty of providing a drug-taker with 10 lbs. of cocaine. That is utterly ridiculous! It may be said these are "maximum penalties" and that "maximum penalties" will never be inflicted, except in cases where the maximum offence has been committed, and I grant that the judges would no doubt administer the law with common sense. But why not suitably classify the offences? There is, however, more reason for alarm with regard to the penalties to be inflicted on summary conviction. £250 and/or a year's imprisonment is a heavy penalty for a magistrate to impose. I have a great respect for the magistrates of this country, but I cannot say that I think every magistrate is necessarily a Solomon! And it may well be that the high penalty they have the power to inflict will make many consider any offence under this Bill to be one of unusual gravity. I do not think many magistrates are likely to inflict a fine of £250 for an offence of the kind just referred to, but an error of such a character should certainly be provided against. I, therefore, hope that in the Committee stage the Government will introduce some system of scaling penalties for the various offences.
Let me now give the House an instance of another difficulty which arises. In the Schedules of Regulations which have been made under the Act which this Bill is to amend any medical man who prescribes one of these remedies for himself is guilty of an offence against the Act. The defence that has been put forward for this provision is that there are certain doctors who are drug takers. That is no doubt true, but I am convinced that their number is very small. All sorts of absurd statements have been made, one to the effect that one in every four of the medical profession is a drug taker. There are many members of the medical profession in this House who will bear me out, I know, in stating that this is an absurd exaggeration. Yet, in order to deal with the very few mostly retired medical men, who have given way to these habits, it has been enacted that no medical man shall prescribe for himself. I greatly regret that there is no provision in this Amending Bill for sweeping away this ridiculous regulation. It is wrong, first of all, because it hampers the doctor unnecessarily by creating a new offence, and secondly, because as a preventive it is futile. A doctor can at present prescribe drugs for a patient; he can also supply them; but before doing that, he must provide himself with those drugs. Naturally, he has a certain stock of them. They must be in his consulting room for cases of emergency. I suppose there is not one practitioner in a thousand who does not constantly carry with him a case in which there is a certain quantity of morphia or cocaine, or both, for emergency use. Further, by writing a letter to a chemist, he can get a supply of these things for use in his practice, and this is quite legitimate. I have done it myself, although, as a consultant, I never dispense medicines. Still, I must have these drugs in my consulting room. The prohibition to prescribe for himself in no way affects his power of obtaining the drug, if he wishes to take it. But, should he write a prescription for himself, he has committed an offence which renders him liable to all the dire penalties prescribed by this Bill.
Let me tell the House, if I may, the story of an adventure of a certain very distinguished physician, whose name wild horses shall not drag from me. He happened to be staying in a small country place and was seized with violent abdominal pains, associated with symptoms which as schoolboys we used to describe as "collywobbles." He wrote out a perfectly proper prescription for the condition, which would certainly give him relief, went down to the chemist in the village, and presented it. The chemist took the prescription, looked at it, and then said: "I am very sorry, Sir, I cannot supply this; you must get some doctor to prescribe this for you!" The chemist volunteered the information that there was a doctor in the village, but he thought he was some distance away at that moment, attending a confinement. "Well," said my friend, "under these circumstances I greatly regret it is not possible for you to give me this, though I know it will give me relief at once." Then a brilliant thought struck him. "I suppose," he said to the chemist, "I could prescribe for my wife?" So taking the prescription he altered the name on it to his wife's, obtained the medicine, and going back to his hotel drank it himself. Now, is not that an utterly ridiculous position for a man to be in? And that is the sort of thing that will go on if this Bill is passed without an amending Clause. We shall put on the Statute Book that a medical man repeating my friend's manœuvre will be liable to a penalty of £1,000 or imprisonment for ten years, or both!
Again, let me tell another story. There was a certain Member of this House last Session who, unfortunately, got a foreign body in his eye. He was in a great deal of discomfort. A friend of his came to me and asked whether I was a doctor of medicine, and as I happened to be, he continued: "So-and-so has got something in his eye: will you please come along and remove it?" I went along, looked at the eye, found the Member in considerable pain. I happen to know that there is in the House a collection of drugs kept for emergencies in the department of the Serjeant-at-Arms, put there at the instigation of a former medical Member of this House. I took my friend with his injured eye into the Serjeant-at-Arms' room, and got out the medicine chest. I took out some cocaine, put a little in the eye, and removed the foreign body, giving relief to the hon. Member, but since I filled up no form, wrote no prescription, and have made no returns, I am not at all sure that by doing what I did I have not made myself liable to a variety of penalties under the existing Act, and that under the proposed Bill, if I repeated the offence, I should not be liable to a penalty of £1,000 or imprisonment for 10 years, or both!
I say, and I believe I express the view of every Member of this House, that when it comes to a question of prescribing drugs to relieve pain or doing a similar action to what I have just described, those who are engaged in the same profession as myself will be willing to break the law in order to provide relief. If you are going to put such restrictions upon us, and it becomes a question of medical men doing their duty towards their patients or breaking the Regulations, they will break the Regulations and attend to their patients. And in this I am perfectly certain that public opinion will support them, and that an Act which ought to be a real control over a bad and vicious practice will fall into disuse on account of the absurdities it will create. It is because I wish to see this Act fulfil the purpose for which it is intended, it is because I realise that drugging and the drug habit are dangerous in the extreme, that I am anxious to see these ridiculous anomolies give way to sensible restrictions.
I now come to what is quite a new provision. Clause 3 of this Bill applies to all poisons and not simply to cocaine and morphia, and these Regulations will absolutely stop any medical man getting any poisonous drug without definitely signing and sending a document. Medical men are frequently called out to cases of emergency. They may be summoned by telegram, and often are by telephone, without in the least knowing the character of the case they are going to. Suppose it is a case of confinement with severe hæmorrhage. He would require certain drugs which he would not usually carry with him. It may be a case some little distance away. He cannot leave the patient. There is no one to send. If he were to telephone, the chemist would, under this Act, not be allowed to send the drug. As in this Clause, we are dealing with the Schedule of Poisons, I should like the House to consider some amendment of the Bill in another respect. We have been talking about people drugging themselves. I wonder if hon. Members are aware of the amount of drugging that is carried on by means of patent medicines. I have known cases of people who were morphia fiends, and the way they got their morphia was through purchasing chlorodyne. There are many other patent medicines which contain the very drugs we are considering.
When the Government are dealing with this matter they might very well take advantage of the fact that they are concerned with the Schedule of Poisons, and insist that every patent medicine shall have on its label the substances it contains, or, at any rate, the poisonous substances, and the exact proportion in which they exist. I put forward this suggestion for the Home Secretary's consideration. I sincerely hope that the Government will consider a most drastic modification of the Bill, and will remove what I have no hesitation in calling the absurd restrictions against the doctor prescribing for himself which now exist. I hope they will schedule the various offences and attach to each a suitable penalty, and not make one punitive Clause apply to all alike. I think I may speak on behalf of the medical Members of this House because I happen to be secretary to the Committee of medical Members, and we urge most strongly that the Government should seriously revise the Bill and should take into conference those who are intimately acquainted with the actual facts and who are engaged in the active practice of medicine.
I do not think there will be any hon. Member of this House who will vote against the Second Reading of the Bill, but at the same time it does raise a number of important points, and some rather difficult ones. I should like to say one or two words upon some of the matters which have already been raised in this Debate. In the first place, as regards the proposed increase of the penalties provided for in Clause 2, Sub-section (2) of this Bill. I do not think anybody ought to be exposed to the reproach or the suggestion that he is indifferent to the evil which prevails from the misuse of drugs, or that he is unwilling to do anything in his power to stop that evil, simply because he calls attention to the penalties prescribed in this Bill.
Undoubtedly it is the duty of the House of Commons to take the very best steps as far as legislation can to suppress this horrible traffic, although I am bound to say that the difficulties of suppressing it are more concerned with the difficulties of administration and detection than merely with the quantity of punishment. I do not think it is a true proposition if you have a social evil to deal with that you will halve the social evil by multiplying the penalties by two. I am prepared to hear the view of the Government and accept it that the penalties should be made more severe, but we shall only be deluding ourselves if we imagine that by increasing the penalties to an astonishing height we have cured, or gone a long way to cure, what is undoubtedly a frightful social evil.
The penalties in Clause 2 divide themselves into such as may be imposed on conviction on indictment by a judge and jury and penalties which may be imposed on summary conviction. I think we really ought to consider this distinction. It may be very well and right to put the maximum penalty which may be imposed in the worst conceivable case which has been brought before the judge and jury and dealt with on indictment exceedingly high, because after all our law in all cases except murder and treason prescribes the maximum, and then relies upon the good sense and discretion of those administering the law to modify the application of the maximum penalty in each case.
The hon. Member for the London University (Sir S. Russell-Wells) did not affect me with quite so high a degree of alarm as otherwise I should have felt when he drew the harrowing picture of risking 10 years' penal servitude and a fine of £1,000, because he had extracted something from the eye of an hon. Member of this House. Taking the most unfavourable view of the discretion of judges and juries, I do not think any such ghastly consequences would follow, but when it comes to increasing to this very unusual extent the maximum penalty on summary conviction, I find myself very much in agreement with the hon. Member for the London University. After all, in regard to a summary conviction for any offence which it is proper to deal with, merely to say that there is even as a maximum a fine of £250 together with 12 months' imprisonment is a very unusual proceeding although it may be right.
The hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Scrymgeour) would like to enlarge the definition of dangerous drugs to include certain other liquids of more general consumption. I do not know whether the hon. Member happpens to be a magistrate, but probably there are a good many people and even some Members of this House who would not be willing to submit themselves to the unfettered judgment of my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee in his capacity as magistrate if he were given a discretionary power to impose as a penalty for the consumption of that drug 12 months' imprisonment and a fine of £250. I feel quite sure that some hon. Members would not be altogether willing to submit themselves to the tender mercies of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) in his judicial capacity if he happened to be at liberty in the exercise of his discretion to sentence them to 12 months' imprisonment and a fine of £250.
It is not necessarily a good thing to give courts of summary jurisdiction this unusual power, staffed as they are by men who undoubtedly endeavour to discharge their duty to the best of their ability, but, after all, not discharging it as a matter of daily practice or subject to the controlling power of judge and jury, and it is not necessarily a good cure for the evil to multiply the size of the penalty which a summary court can inflict. When the Bill is discussed in Committee I hope the Home Secretary will be prepared to tell us in what other cases, as a matter of summary conviction, there are any illustrations which can be given of a power to impose so large a fine together with so heavy a term of imprisonment. I know it is difficult to imagine any class of offence which may not sometimes provide a very serious case, but the right thing to do with a serious offence is not to have it dealt with by a summary method, but by indictment.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) referred to Sub-section (3) of Clause 2 of the Bill. I have no sort of function or authority to deal with the matter or explain it, but it was a Clause which interested me because, as I suppose, it is one which really is thought to be necessary in order to circumvent the very ingenious prisoner. Now, whatever be the right view of our criminal law, it certainly ought not to reward ingenious criminals while less skilful or less crafty persons get convicted. I imagine the position contemplated by this Clause is that nobody who is accused of an offence of this kind can be compelled to go into the witness box or even to open his mouth in the course of the proceedings.
If a person is accused of having in his possession without licence or authority a dangerous drug, I can conceive of a very ingenious person who had no better defence sitting entirely quiet while the proceedings were carried through by the prosecution, and at the end offering a defence of this kind: "You have proved that I am a person who had this drug in my possession, but there are some persons who have licences entitling them to have dangerous drugs in their possession, and how do you know that I am not a person with such a licence?" Then, no doubt, the ingenious and crafty criminal will put forward the well-known proposition that it is the duty of the prosecution to prove the case, and, as they have not proved he has no licence, he is entitled to be acquitted. If he did that I should not think him a good lawyer, because I do not believe the defence would be proved, but, at any rate, I understand the Bill says that for the purpose of removing doubts it is declared that in any proceedings against any person for an offence against the Dangerous Drugs Act, 1920, as amended by this Act, it is not necessary to negative by evidence any licence, authority or other matter of exception or defence, and that the burden of proving such matters lies on the person seeking to avail himself thereof. That leads me to make this observation.
We all know how much care and trouble is taken in the drafting of Government Bills, and very exaggerated language is often used in criticism of the draftsmanship. My sole criticism is that it is unfortunate that in a comparatively simple Bill like this it does not, within the four corners of the Bill, state in plain language what the Bill does. For example, a person interested in this subject, whether a social reformer or a dealer in drugs, would naturally ask what are the dangerous drugs, but one may search this Bill from one end to the other and he will not find stated in it what the dangerous drugs are. In order to understand the Bill, one has to read in the first section a substituted phrase for something which now stands in the Statute of 1920. I have that Statute here. In the present Bill there is no reference to any drug to which this Act applies, and it is no good searching through the Bill to find them out. You have instead to go to the Statute of 1920, and, having perused a number of Clauses, you can make out a list of the drugs, including raw opium, cocaine and morphia. It seems rather unfortunate that should be the case, and I do not see any reason why we should not within the four corners of this Bill give either in a Schedule or in some other way a list of the drugs which are dangerous.
That point becomes more important in view of something which was said by the hon. Member for London University just now. The hon. Gentleman said, quite truly, that Clause 3 of the Bill deals with a different list of poisons from the poisons dealt with under Clauses 1 and 2. One cannot find out in Clause 3 of this Bill what those poisons are, and if he wants to know he will have to look not at the Statute of 1920 but at the Statute of 1868, where, after reading through many Sections, if he is so fortunate as to look at Schedule A, Part I, he will find the list of poisons which is dealt with. That leads me further to observe that I rather wonder whether a list of poisons, which was no doubt up to date and proper when the Pharmacy Act of 1868 was passed, is still regarded as such by those who really have authority and knowledge of the subject. Do they think it is a proper list of poisons for to-day? Has nothing happened since 1868 which makes it desirable to consider whether that list is still a proper list for the purpose of checking the sale of such poisons indiscriminately by chemists and others? I think I can safely say for my own political Friends, and I should think for the House generally, that criticisms and observations are not intended in the least to oppose the objects which the Government have at heart, and in which I feel sure they will be supported by the good sense of the whole community. Nothing could be more important than that we should make our machinery as effective as possible for suppressing this most dangerous and horrible traffic.
May I just make one other observation which illustrates the difficulty created by a Bill drafted in this way? The hon. Gentleman who spoke last, as well as a previous speaker, spent a little time in complaining of the provision that a doctor was not allowed to prescribe drugs for himself. I daresay there may be very great force in that, but I am afraid had not the hon. Member been allowed to proceed without being called to order, I should have felt that the question was one which had nothing to do with this Bill. I have read the Bill through. I cannot find anything in it about such a Regulation or Rule. It certainly does not appear to be within the four corners of the Dangerous Drugs and Poisons (Amendment) Bill, and I therefore can only suppose that there is some such Regulation which can be ascertained by going back to an earlier Statute.
There is a Regulation which does exactly what my hon. Friend (Sir S. Russell-Wells) stated.
I am not dealing with Regulations. I do not think, as a matter of fact, this Bill in any of its clauses makes any such provision one way or the other. That is an important point which may arise in the course of the discussions on the Bill, but I do not look upon it as one of the matters with which this Bill has to deal. For the reasons I have given I hope when these matters have been thoroughly thrashed out the House will be prepared to support the Government in giving this Bill a Second Reading, and on my own behalf I may venture to add that in Committee we shall have rather carefully to consider several of the provisions of the Bill. I would urge upon the House this. We all feel our responsibilities as legislators on this most important subject, and we should not lay the flattering unction to our souls and consciences that simply because we are increasing tremendously the maximum penalties imposed by the law, therefore we are providing a cure for the evil.
I want to join with the other hon. Members who have expressed their approval of the general principles embodied in this Bill, and to add that I am quite sure that in all quarters of the House the proposal for its Second Reading will receive the support which its promoters desire. In view of what has been happening recently, there is a strong public desire to protect the morphia fiend and the sexual perverts of modern society from people who are making huge fortunes out of this deplorable traffic. It is satisfactory to some of us that there is evidently a limit beyond which the supporters of private enterprise will not go, and perhaps when we show to them the ingenuity which we are told is one of the features of this private enterprise, they will be prepared to place even more restrictions on the freedom of the individual. Let me point out, however, that the class of people whom we are to-day protecting by this legislation are a direct product of the social system of which the right hon. Gentleman and his friends are such illustrious defenders. Under that social system people are taught that it is honourable and desirable to obtain wealth, to obtain it by any means short of going to prison, without working, and as long as you have a social system in which all the rewards are held out to the people who exploit others, however miserable they may be and however terrible may be the result of their exploitation, we shall have to deal with people like this and to adopt Measures such as we are now discussing. The right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) rather regretted the penalties that are proposed to be imposed by this Bill on those who are unsuccessful in evading the law.
That really was not in the least what I said. I said that no penalty could be too great for a bad case, but I doubted whether it was wise to give the power of imposing such extremely heavy penalties to magistrates, as distinct from proceedings by indictment.
Speaking as one who is a magistrate and who has had some experience on the Bench, I want to say, on behalf of the magistrates, that when a case such as this comes before them they may not be guided and assisted by legal luminaries of the eminence of my right hon. Friend, but they may still be expected to deal out justice, perhaps more effectively and impartially than if they came under his wonderful influence. The point I want to make is this, that you are dealing here with a traffic carried oh surreptitiously in which we understand there are enormous profits, and therefore a fine of £1,000 in odd cases in which the authorities are successful in capturing the culprit is not a very heavy penalty. If I were advising the Government I would suggest that they leave out the option of a fine in cases like these and make the penalty one of imprisonment. Let me get down to the character of the traffic which is carried on. Here, again, may I remind the House that the restrictions that are placed on the traffic were not always the accepted principles of the party opposite. My knowledge of history is by no means complete and clear, but I seem to remember a case in which Great Britain actually went to war with China in order to force China to accept opium which was produced in India by British capital provided out of the unpaid wages of the British working classes. That makes us feel that even to-day, if this were a trade in which our surplus millions could be invested, we should have from the other side of the House justification in abundance for the freedom of the individual and for freedom in trade.
7.0 P.M.
My own view is that, as long as your present social system—a social system which I think I may rightly describe as a stinking system—is allowed to remain, you will require legislation of this kind in order to protect the victims of your society against exploitation by people who act outside the legal limits. When the present Bill goes before a Committee, and we have to deal with its details, there are one or two points with regard to which I would like the right hon. Gentleman's attention. I notice in Clause 1, with regard to Scotland, that the information must be submitted to a justice of the peace or a sheriff. A justice of the peace in Scotland is not the mighty person I understand he is in this end of the country. The magistrates in Scotland are drawn from an elected body. They are the people who administer the law to the extent to which it is usually administered by a justice of the peace in England. I would ask the Home Secretary to substitute for "Justice of the Peace," the words "a magistrate in the city or in the borough in which the information has been laid." I would also call attention to the fact that in Sub-section (1 A) these words occur:
I entirely agree with all the observations of the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) with regard to penalties. He was speaking as a lawyer. I also may claim to speak as a lawyer, and to say that the increase in the punishment to be allowed to a court of summary jurisdiction is very marked. I think I am right in saying that there is no other offence on the Statute Book for which a justice of the peace can give more than six months' imprisonment with hard labour. Therefore, when the jurisdiction of the magistrates is increased to 12 months' imprisonment, with hard labour, and also to the imposition of a fine of £250, the matter requires careful consideration. I did not rise to dwell on that point, because it was dealt with fully by the right hon. Member for Spen Valley. There is another matter to which I wish to call attention, and it is one that the Home Secretary should bear in mind when the Bill comes into Committee, or before. By Clause 2, Sub-section (1), paragraph ( a ), it is provided that any person
I have referred, by the courtesy of the right hon. Member for Spen Valley, to the copy he had of the Dangerous Drugs Act, 1920. I find that the Regulations made—I suppose by a Government Department—are laid on the Table of the House and become the law. Hon. Members of the House may give 21 days' notice in order to remove any Regulation of which they may disapprove. Unless that is done, the Regulations have the force of a Statute and of an Act of Parliament, and an offence created by them may be an offence for which a man may be liable to 10 years' penal servitude. I protest against that, as a lawyer. I have no doubt that that escaped the draughtsman's attention, because it would have been a very simple matter, when dealing with subjects of this kind, to add a Schedule to the Act tabling the offences which are to be punished in the manner herein stated. If I were to repeat myself over and over again, I could not make my point any stronger than I have done by calling the attention of the Home Secretary to it. I contend that when offences of that magnitude are created the public are entitled to have the law set out in an Act of Parliament. People should not be subjected to any Regulation which may be altered by a Government Department and may pass unobserved, and under which they may suffer because they have broken the law unwittingly.
I should like to reply to one or two criticisms of this Bill, as also to take the opportunity of saying that I am very grateful to hon. Members for all the suggestions they have made, and for the spirit in which they have approached this question. It is clear that in certain of the details of the Bill there are difficulties, and several suggestions have been made to meet them. I do not think the right hon. Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) is here, but one of his questions was answered by the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon). As the right hon. Member for the City of London is not here, perhaps he does not think it important that the others should be dealt with. If he comes back, however, I shall be very glad to explain them to him. The hon. Member for the Shettleston Division (Mr. Wheatley) referred to the status of Justices of the Peace in Scotland. I am afraid I am not able to answer him on that point.
Why is the Lord Advocate not here?
I will consult the Lord Advocate on the subject. With regard to the question about the police raised by the hon. Gentleman, I certainly have more confidence in the rectitude of the police than to suppose that they would be liable to fail in carrying out their duty, owing to those people—whom I quite agree are capable of anything— attempting to bribe them. I do not think we need be afraid of that. Two or three points were raised by the right hon. Member for Spen Valley, with regard to which I was very grateful to have his advice and assistance. He, first of all, asked whether the penalty of £250 or 12 months' imprisonment on summary jurisdiction had any precedent at all, and if it were not in excess of anything that had been done before. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Maddocks) raised the same point. By the Act under which we are living now—the Dangerous Drugs Act, 1920—a magistrate can fine, on the second conviction—
On the second conviction!
He cannot only impose a fine of £250, but a fine of £500. However, I am quite prepared to consider the point. I am not going into the exact figure, and I think the larger sum on indictment would be much the more important of the two penalites. Both the hon. and learned Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Spen Valley sug- gested some simplification of the Bill by mentioning specifically what was the dangerous drug referred to, and by doing away, as far as possible, with references to other Acts. There, again, I shall be glad if we can meet their views. My desire is that the Bill shall be as plain and clear as possible, and if there be any way of making it plainer, I shall be very glad to adopt it.
The Clause which met with the greatest amount of criticism was Clause 3. The hon. Member for London University (Sir S. Russell-Wells) and the hon. Member for Blackpool (Major Molloy) seemed to think that it conveyed some kind of slur on the medical profession. That is certainly very far from our intention if it does so. I cannot myself see how they can read that into the Clause. The hon. Member for London University drew terrible pictures of what might happen if he were doing his best to save somebody from pain. I think he did not quite understand the Regulation to which he is referring. There is nothing in this Bill, nor, I think, in the Act of 1920, which prevents a doctor going and ordering drugs for the purpose of his own profession. Sub-section (1) of Clause 3 says that it is all right if the purchase be made by him for the purposes of his profession. The Regulation to which the hon. Member refers was inserted in order to prevent people who had belonged to the medical profession and had left it, and who were not actually practising, from writing prescriptions for themselves for some of these dangerous drugs. That, I believe, was the intention of the Regulation. At any rate, it is perfectly clear, from the words in the Clause, that if a doctor purchases these drugs for the purposes of his profession, he is clearly able to use them on himself or on anybody else.
I said that at the present time there is the Act of 1920, and that, under the Act of 1920, a regulation has been issued prohibiting medical men from prescribing drugs for themselves. My point was that, as this is an amending Bill, it would be very desirable to introduce a Clause to abolish that regulation. It is a fact that, if I prescribe for myself a dose of morphine, or a solution of cocaine for my eye, a chemist would refuse to dispense it, because of that regulation.
I remember what the hon. Member said, and, while he did refer to that regulation, he did try to persuade the House to believe that he could not go and buy any cocaine or morphia, for the purpose of relieving pain, by saying that he wanted it for the purposes of his profession. It is true that, if he wrote a prescription for himself, it would contravene the regulation, but, if he chooses to take a course which he knows is going to defeat his own object, that is not the fault of the law.
I am sure the right hon. Gentleman does not wish to misrepresent anything that I said, but I think he is under a little misapprehension as to what I actually did say. I said that, if I were to order a certain quantity of a drug to be supplied to me for use in my profession, I could get it, and I have never for one minute suggested that I should not be able to get it; but that if I were to prescribe it for myself it would not be supplied. I could get round that by prescribing for someone else and using it for myself, but then I should have committed an offence. One does not deny for a minute that we can get drugs for the use of our patients, but we cannot get them except by an elaborate machinery, and we cannot get them by telephone or anything of that sort.
I do not want to go into a long argument with my hon. Friend on this, but he is now admitting what I have just been saying, namely, that if he says it is for the purposes of his profession there is nothing to prevent his buying the drug, but if he says he is going to make a prescription for himself then the chemist would be unable to supply it. It is quite possible that we may be able to do something to make that point plainer. At any rate, it is not a correct impression to give the House that a doctor cannot go and get these drugs if he says they are for the purposes of his profession; and if he gets them for the purposes of his profession he can use them himself.
Then he is committing an offence.
I never said that.
I was referring to the hon. Member for London University (Sir S. Russell-Wells). I am very sorry if I misunderstood, but I thought the whole point of his argument was, and I think other Members of the House thought the same, that there was something in this Bill which would prevent him from going and getting cocaine or morphia to relieve pain in the case of someone who was in acute distress. If he did not say that, I do not quite understand what his point is in regard to that. I quite admit, however, that both he and my hon and gallant Friend the Member for Blackpool (Major Molloy) have some reason, perhaps, to be apprehensive of the exact wording of some parts of this Clause. It is a very difficult provision to draw. Everyone wants to make it easy for a properly authorised doctor to be able to get what is wanted to relieve pain in an emergency. I do not suppose, however, that it is very often that a doctor would be called out, as my hon. Friend suggested, to some distant place, and would have to administer morphia to relieve pain, without, probably, having the appliances already in his pocket when he went there. I think the odds are that in most cases, knowing that he was called out to a birth, or whatever the case might be, he would take the precaution to take the morphia in his bag. I am quite ready, however, to listen to any suggestions for making this part of the Clause more workable, and I hope that my hon. Friends and those whom they represent will supply me with some form of words which they think would effect the purpose I want to effect without doing them any injury.
I do not think there are any other points upon which I need dwell, but I do venture to think it is quite a mistake to imagine that, by putting the maximum penalty at £1,000 or 10 years, we are putting it a bit too high. The amount of mischief and misery and crime that the people who make profit by engaging in this disgusting trade can accomplish is enough to make us wish to put the highest possible penalty we reasonably can upon them in order to stop it. To draw the picture of some innocent man who, because he did use a little cocaine, possibly in violation of the Act, or possibly not, being certain to get a penalty of £l,000 or 10 years, may be very good for argumentative purposes, but it is really casting a slur on the sense of justice of any of our Courts or juries in this country. I think they are perfectly competent to say what is a bad case which deserves a high penalty, and what is a case which deserves only a low penalty. I do hope that no one will wish to prevent the maximum penalty being possible. As regards the maximum penalty in a case of summary jurisdiction, I am quite ready to look into that again and see if there are precedents for it and, if so, whether it would be possible to follow them and to lower slightly the penalty mentioned in the Bill.
There are two points to which I should like to draw the Home Secretary's attention, but may I say first that I cannot help thinking that the hon. Member for Shettlestone (Mr. Wheatley) was really ingenious in finding the evils of our social system embedded in this Bill? I think he has forgotten that the existence of many causes is the constant difficulty of the social reformer, and that, perhaps, some of the vices and weaknesses which exist in our social system may be derived from other causes than the organisation of society for profit and not for use. I cannot help thinking that, even with the most beautiful and brand-new Socialist or Communist Utopia which it ever entered into the mind of man to devise, it might be found that the influence of these drugs knocked a hole through the bottom of it. I am afraid we are dealing with something rather more deeply seated, with, perhaps, some weakness of human nature—it may be some physiological weaknesses—which makes these drugs specially attractive to certain constitutions. I do not wish to lay too great stress on that, but I think it is a curious instance of how people may be obsessed with one idea, and may see in almost everything the workings of some particular evil.
I wanted to draw the attention of the Home Secretary to one particular point in this Bill which seems to me to be of real importance. It seems to me to be an exceptional case of international cooperation. I was, unfortunately, not able to be present during the whole of the Debate on the point, and do not know whether the question has been raised, but in Sub-section (1, d ) of Clause 2 there is a provision which certainly is very unusual. This also bears on the question of penalty. Everyone knows that this drug trade is an international matter, and I think it is right to take the steps which the Bill proposes, but they are very exceptional. The Bill contemplates that a number of foreign countries will pass laws—some of them may have already done so—in pursuance of the International Opium Convention signed at the Hague; and it provides for penalties for persons who infringe those laws made by foreign countries. If any person in Great Britain is a party to an offence outside Great Britain, which is punishable in that place in virtue of any such law, then he commits an offence under this Measure, so that the Measure really has a sort of extra-territorial jurisdiction. I know that there axe some offences which are offences against the British law, and may be punishable in Great Britain, although committed outside Great Britain; but this, I should have thought, is almost the first time that we have had this case of international cooperation, in which we recognise the laws of other countries of corresponding import to this Measure, so that, if anyone is a party to an offence committed outside Great Britain which infringes the laws of those other countries, he can be punished in Great Britain for that offence. That is a very interesting provision, and I think I have rightly described it. I should be glad if the Government could say whether in any foreign countries there is any corresponding recognition, and whether there is any agreement, in virtue of the Hague Convention or anything of the kind, under which different States and communities will co-operate in the mutual recognition of each other's laws with a view to suppressing this trade.
The only other point which I desire to make is one which follows on a suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon). It is the old story of legislation by reference and the need for codification, and I trust that I may be allowed, perhaps, to drag in an idea which I have long had. Our Statute Book is in a very slovenly condition, and we have a litter of laws which are bewildering to the layman. The time has long since arrived when Government Departments, in bringing forward these Bills, should do something to keep the Statute Book from getting into a worse mess than it is in at present. I have served, in the past, on Committees of this House which have codified certain portions of the law, and I am quite clear in my own mind as to the best way in which this difficulty could be met. To codify is not, by itself, enough. There are some branches of the law which have been codified, but Amendments are very constant and frequent, and, when the work has been done once, it has, in the course of ten or twenty years, all to be done over again.
In one case, in the Statutes relating to the Government of India, I think we provided the right remedy. We codified and got in what was called a printing Clause, and I believe that is the real way out of the difficulty. I do not know whether it would appeal always to the legal profession, for, if I was disposed to be cynical, I should remember that a legal difficulty is very often a gold mine to that deserving profession. But the printing Clause is a very simple arrangement. You take in your codifying law power under which the Department concerned is instructed to place into your code, when it is once made, any amending Act, and when you have done that and you introduce a Bill amending the Act you take power in the amending Bill to insert its provisions into your code. If you do that you have a code of law which builds itself up from time to time and, as the law is amended, the Amendments fall into the right place and there is a body of law which can always be reprinted and which remains free from the slovenly mess which at present distinguishes a great number of branches of the law. I only wish the Home Secretary would do something of that kind and I wish other Government Departments would do it.
In dealing, for instance, with the Government of India Acts you can always have one Statute reprinted from time to time in which the whole of the Law is embodied, and as Amendments to that law are passed by this House they are, under instructions from this House, put back into the code so that you do not get the litter of amending legislation which goes on. I am quite certain if that precedent were established and if it were more commonly acted upon it would be a great deal easier for the House to understand what they were doing. When you get a number of Acts all to be considered together with a view to amendment it is a frequent cause of misunderstanding and of the fact that this House very frequently fails to do in its amending legislation what it set out to do. I commend that suggestion to the careful attention of the Government.
May I direct attention to a point which, although it might properly be raised in Committee, it may not be inappropriate to mention now. I refer to the position of the men in the mercantile marine. In Sub-section 1 of Clause 1 reference is made to premises. I should like to ask the Solicitor-General whether a ship is regarded as premises, and if not, how are the authorities to obtain access to ships, where it is well known that this drug traffic is very often conducted. It is a matter of common knowledge that vessels coming to this country are frequently used as a medium for conveying the drugs which are referred to in the Bill. I suggest that before the Committee stage the Solicitor-General should consult his right hon. Friend in regard to this very important point. Then I would direct attention to the need for clarity. Mercantile marine men are very often used as a means of conveying drugs from foreign to British ports. The penalties suggested in the Bill are exceedingly drastic, and I suggest that in the Regulations which are provided, whatever penalties are to be imposed should be clearly stated and that a copy should be placed in the forecastle of all vessels so as to convey the information to seamen, and to some extent prevent them from engaging in so dangerous a practice. In addition to that, I suggest that the Home Secretary should exercise his powers with regard to Chinese seamen. These men are very often used to convey a very large amount of the drug into this country. Cases have been reported in the public Press, and I am sure have come to the knowledge of the Home Secretary, with regard to the activities of Chinese seamen in this connection. I think it desirable that, so far as possible, their activities should be curbed, and so that that could be done it may be found necessary to consider the question of the employment of Chinese seamen on British vessels. At all events, if they are to be employed on British vessels, they must not be permitted to engage in illegal practices. These are three points which I think are of some importance, and which will, I hope, engage the attention of the Solicitor-General.
As one who has taken a considerable interest in this subject for some time I should like to express my gratification at the Government having brought this Bill forward, but I am bound to say I am rather disappointed. I do not want to go into many of the different aspects from which the Bill has been criticised already. I think the Home Secretary has met them very clearly, and he has promised to do his best. But I want to make one suggestion with regard to the way in which the Bill affects the medical profession. It seems to me that the Bill, in the very keen wish of the draughtsmen to see that there is no loop hole, has been unnecessarily and unduly hard upon that great profession. I suggest that the medical profession should be almost left out of these penal Clauses so far as they can be said in any way to be acting in the practice of their profession, and I have two reasons which might help the Government to agree to that perhaps rather astonishing proposition. The first is that the medical profession is already under very strict discipline of its own, and if you get a man who takes advantage of his profession to try to carry on any nefarious trade in these drugs, you will find generally that his own profession will very soon deal with him and at least get him out of the protection of the profession, and the law will be able to deal with him after that.
The further reason I want to give is this: The medical profession will not be stopped from doing illegal acts, if they truly believe it is in the interest of their patients, in really serious cases. It is not an uncommon thing for benches of magistrates to have cases before them where a medical man, going to an urgent case, has offended against some Regulation with regard to lights on vehicles or the pace of his motor-car, or something of that kind. They are usually dealt with in a very common-sense way by the bench, but it is not advisable that medical men should get into the habit of breaking laws in this way, relying upon the clemency of the bench. It is far better for the general respect for the law that medical men should be definitely exempted from these somewhat harassing laws, if and so far as it can be done with safety. I hope, therefore, the Government will consider very carefully and sympathetically meeting the medical profession, as far as they can, by way of exempting them from the penalties in this Bill.
The only other point I want to draw attention to is Sub-section 3 (a) of Clause 2. I do not understand it. It is a provision that it is not necessary in proceedings under this Act
This Bill is a very good illustration of a class of measure which in the past has gone through this House with much too great facility. There are two reasons for this. First of all the title indicates that it is a Bill with a good object, and everyone is naturally well inclined to a Bill which apparently has a good object. The second reason why it passed with such great facility is that it is drawn in a form which hardly any Member of the House can understand. As it therefore combines these two qualities of excellent intent and unintelligibility, it naturally has an easy course. My own experience in the past has always suggested to me that these are precisely the Bills that moat need watching. The defects of the present Bill have been illustrated in the last two speeches. The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Shinwell) drew attention to the fact that it will very closely affect merchant seamen, a body of men whom he very efficiently represents. In any question relating to the importation of any article the men of the mercantile marine may be easily brought within the four corners of any Act of Parliament, and he very naturally seeks to see that merchant seamen should not unknowingly be brought within the penalties of this Bill. The suggestion he makes is that this Act should be posted in the forecastle of all steamers. I do not think that that would be of much advantage to the sailors of the mercantile marine. How many of them would understand the penalties, or the offences to which the penalties under this Act apply? For example, they would see that this is a Bill to amend the Dangerous Drugs Act, 1920. They would naturally want to know what was the Dangerous Drugs Act of 1920. They would see a reference to Section 17 of the Pharmacy Act, 1868, and also to the Poisons and Pharmacy Act of 1908. These simple-minded men would be bewildered by reference to all these Acts.
I indicated that they would understand it best if it were not there.
I am not sure whether their ignorance would not be intensified by the Act. Even if they have the benefit of the original Act of 1920 being posted, and if they looked up the definition of dangerous drugs contained in Section 8, Sub-section (1), they would not be greatly enlightened. On reference to that Subsection, I find that who is jointly responsible for the Bill with the Home Secretary, should bear in mind, and that a simple statement of the drugs to which this legislation applies should be brought before these men, together with the penalties which they would incur by dealing in these drugs. That is much more important than placing the copy of the legislation itself before them. It is not only in regard to merchant seamen that these difficulties occur. We have had three speeches this evening from distinguished members of the medical profession. They all with one accord agree that members of the medical profession do not understand how they are affected by this legislation. In these circumstances, there is ground for asking the Government to make it at least clear to the medical profession. I have been able to ascertain exactly what Clause 3 means. It seems to me to be as bad a case of legislation by reference as it is possible to find in any recent Bill which has been before this House. It says: in Clause 2 of the present Bill. I hope the Solicitor-General will be able to enlighten the House on this point, namely, whether the penalties in Clause 2 will, under this Bill, apply to contraventions of Clause 3 of the Bill.
I was interested in an observation made by the hon. Member for London University (Sir S. Russell-Wells). He suggested that when the Government were dealing with this question, namely, the Pharmacy Act, 1868—and it is in the Pharmacy Act of 1868 alone that there is a Schedule of the poisons which are dealt with in Clause 3—he said it was the duty of the Government to modernise the Schedule of poisons, because poisons recognised in 1868 did not represent the number of poisons which were now available for medical practitioners. In particular, he pressed upon the Government the importance of dealing with patent medicines, many of which contain considerable portions of poison, and the use of which by innocent people very frequently leads to the growth of the drug habit, He mentioned certain of these patent medicines which, in his experience, have had that effect, and I believe that there are other hon. Members, not in the medical profession, who have heard of similar instances. Hon. Members will agree that that would be a very valuable thing to do, and that it would be worth doing in this Bill. Under this Bill, however, it cannot be done.
The unfortunate thing is that the Title of the Bill has been so drawn that no Amendment of the Pharmacy Act can be introduced, except to Section 17. We are expressly limited by the Title of the Bill to amending the Dangerous Drugs Act, 1920, Section 17 of the Pharmacy Act, 1868, and to prescribe the method of calculating percentages, etc. In these circumstances, with the Title of the Bill as it is, it would be impossible for the Government to accede to the request put forward by the hon. Member for London University, a request to which the Home Secretary gave a very sympathetic reply. In view of the importance of this aspect of the case, and in view of its close connection with the drug habit with which this Bill in the main is intended to deal, I would like to know whether the Solicitor-General, on behalf of the Government, will take into consideration the widening of the scope of the Bill, so that a Schedule can be introduced into the Bill bringing, as it were, the list of poisons up to date.
The hon. Member for Shettlestone (Mr. Wheatley) seems to have practically no belief in the efficacy of such a Bill as this so long as our present social system continues. I do not know whether that indicated that he was going to oppose the Bill, or whether he was going to let it through. It seems to me a somewhat futile way of discussing a question of this kind, because no matter what social system you have in this country, no matter how you organise this country, the Government of this country will have to take measures of this kind for striking at the practice with which this Bill is intended to deal. No matter what the social system may be, you have to have trading relations with other countries, and you will have attempts on the part of people in other countries to introduce into our country the dangerous drugs with which this Bill deals. Even under the system favoured by the Labour party, I believe there would be considerable inducements for such traffic and such dealings. The hon. Member for Linlith-gow (Mr. Shinwell) suggests that he would be so philanthropic as to offer these drugs to his opponent. That is a new version of the Socialist doctrine of brotherly love.
8.0 P.M.
A further question which arises was referred to by the right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas), who pointed out that this Bill represents an advance in international legislation, and that there is provision under Clause 2 for imposing penalties in this country for offences which have been committed outside this country. Furthermore, there is a reference in Clause 5, Sub-section (2), to corresponding laws in other countries, and it is in relation to the corresponding laws in other countries that I would like to put a question to the Solicitor-General. We are aware that the International Opium Convention, which was signed at The Hague on the 23rd January, 1912, has been adopted by a great many Governments, and that legislation has been passed to carry out the provisions of that Convention. I am anxious to know from the Solicitor-General, and probably he has the information at his disposal, whether the corresponding laws in other countries are on all fours with the present Bill, whether they enumerate the same offences as this Bill defines, and whether the penalties which they prescribe are as drastic as the penalties which are prescribed in this Bill, because there are obvious considerations arising in connection with this matter. If the burden of the penalties varies in different countries, it may simply lead to the transference of the trade instead of to its complete destruction. If the legislation in one country is comparatively lenient, a trade of this kind may be attracted to such a country and those who are interested in carrying on the trade may carry out what may be called the major operation and nevertheless be able to do a great deal of damage in this country by what may be called minor operations in regard to dealing in drugs. I hope, therefore, that the Solicitor-General will be able to give the information which I have asked.
To revert to a question which has been mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) I do not attach a great deal of importance to sub-section (2 6) of Section (2)— the penalty in regard to summary conviction. As the Home Secretary pointed out, there is an even higher penalty, which may be imposed on summary conviction under the law as it is in relation to a second offence of as much as £500. I think that the more important thing is that in the present Bill provision is made for dealing with these offences by conviction on indictment by a judge and jury, and having even a greater penalty imposed in these circumstances. I think therefore that it is the provision which is likely to prove the more valuable and to act in a more direct way as a deterrent against those who are engaged in this traffic. I trust that the Solicitor-General will give the further information asked for, and that at the subsequent stages of the Bill the Government will see their way to allow some of the obscurities to be cleared up so as to enable a plain man who may be affected to understand more clearly what his position may happen to be.
I would like the Solicitor-General to give some information as to the advisability of having patent medicines containing poison sold with an analysis of what they contain printed on the bottle, signed in the case of a company by the responsible secretary of the company and in the case of an individual by the individual. I would also ask him to tell us what steps do the Government propose to take to safeguard, as they are trying to do in this Bill, the position created when there are separate bottles for sale containing certain ingredients which will produce synthetic preparations of poison?
It is not my purpose to detain the House by any detailed reference to the various points made by hon. Members. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has said already that the many points which have been raised in Debate will receive the most sympathetic consideration, and, indeed, welcome from him when the Bill is in Committee. A number of valuable suggestions have been made since my right hon. Friend has spoken, and I can only repeat his statement that they will all receive consideration, and as far as possible will be adopted in the interests of making this Bill as clear in language and effective in operation as the cooperation of Members in all parts of the House can make it. I have been asked to reply definitely on one or two points. The hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) asked a question of legal interpretation, whether an infringement of the provisions of Clause 3 would be punishable penalties under the Bill or under the Pharmacy Act, 1868. I think that the hon. Member may assume that the penalties prescribed by this Bill will not apply to anything which is dealt with under Section 3 of this Bill. In reference to his question as to "corresponding" legislation the only answer which I am able to give at the moment is that the League of Nations has recommended that the penalties shall be raised. France has already raised the penalties. This Bill is a further step so far as this country is concerned in raising the penalty and no doubt other nations will follow the advice given by the League of Nations. In reply to the hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) patent medicines are wholly outside the scope of this Bill.
They should not be.
Bills, however extensive, cannot deal with every subject that is connected with a particular matter. Patent medicines will have to be dealt with by other legislation. The other question of the hon. Member I am at the moment unable to answer. If there is any way in which the matter requires to be dealt with by this Bill, and if it can be done within the scope of the Measure by an Amendment in Committee, no doubt it will be done. With regard to the point raised by the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Shin-well), I have little doubt that if anything can be done by the Home Office or possibly by the Board of Trade to call to the attention of seafaring men the risk they run by engaging in this traffic the matter will be taken into consideration and any necessary Amendments made in the Bill. May I express the hope that the House will now give a Second Reading to the Bill and so enable its next stage to be proceeded with as rapidly as possible.
Nothing can indicate the wide scope of the subjects covered by this Bill more than the two questions put by my hon. Friend the Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie). This piecemeal legislation is very largely wasting the time of this House. The hon. Member asks why patent medicines, containing many of these drugs, should not be dealt with under this Bill. This is only touching the fringe of the subject. A Select Committee was set up in the Parliament prior to 1914, especially instructed to deal with the evils arising from the presence of these drugs in patent medicines. The evil that is being done to the community to-day is not to be measured by the scope of this Bill. Patent medicines containing many of these very drugs are being advertised to-day all over the kingdom and they create a craving in hundreds of thousands of people who buy these articles in obedience to that craving and also in obedience to the very attractive advertisements which claim for the medicines virtues that they do not possess. Many of these medicines contain a small percentage of cocaine or morphia and their derivatives and they create a craving for these drugs.
The evil is not the fact that people want to make money, but that they are dealing with drugs for which a craving is created. All you have to do to produce this bad result is to advertise a patent medicine or sell some powder or pill which contains a small percentage much less than the one-fifth or one per cent. mentioned in the Bill, for even less than that is sufficient to create a craving. What we have to deal with is a much larger question that that which is dealt with in this Bill, and the Government should realise their responsibility of dealing with the whole question of patent medicines and poisonous drugs, not because the medicines are poisoned or because they are dangerous or produce death, but because they create this craving. The Committee of which I had the honour of being a member got case after case of the most pathetic kind coming before it, in which a craving was created among people who are being robbed and exploited. I know nothing more cruel going on in our social life to-day than to rob a person's pockets and at the same time pretend that you are doing some good by relieving his disease, while all the time he is not only getting worse of the particular disease but he is developing a craving for these drugs which he will find difficult to overcome. Those evils—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"]— those who say "divide" have no conception of the enormity of the evil which exists in our midst to-day. I have a great deal to say on this subject. Hon. Members opposite took up so much time this afternoon that we had no opportunity of saying what we had to say about it. This Bill deals with only a small thing relatively to the whole and is a fine illustration of
This has been said several times already, and the hon. Member cannot repeat it.
I wish to emphasise that point. I approve of the high penalty because, in dealing with the traffic in which there are enormous profits, the penalty should be high, and bear some relation to the profits which people make on this traffic.
rose in his place, and claimed to move "That the Question be now put."
Question, "That the Question be now put," put, and agreed to.
Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put accordingly, and agreed to.
Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
Aliens Act
I beg to move, those four limbs of the race, Saxon, Norman, Dane and Celt, have given the nation the power which it has to-day by the mingling of their strength. I am content to maintain our stock as nearly as possible from those four races.
Our legislation with regard to alien immigration has gone through three or four stages during the last eight or nine years. Before the War, although we had Alien Acts and Alien Immigration Acts, they had practically sunk into abeyance because of our slackness in using them. It was only now and then, when some big divorce or marriage tangle, or some question with regard to the legal rights of an alien was brought forward, that we troubled about our Aliens Acts at all. But in August, 1914, we brought forward, naturally, a very stringent Aliens Restriction Act. I shall not go into the details of that Act, because they are known to hon. Members. That was the first time that we had tried to codify our law with regard to aliens in an Act. Although, perhaps, we might say now that some of the provisions of that Act were rather too severe, they were not too severe at the time, and they carried out their purpose fairly well. In the course of the same year the House turned its attention to the status of aliens, and there also practically codified our position. I have not much to say about that Act except that I think it contains one very big blot, which at some time—and the sooner the better—this House should try to remove. I mean the disability that it places upon English women who happen to marry aliens. The House might consider whether the Act treats British women fairly in that respect.
The Act which I wish to bring to the attention of the House now is the Act of 1919, which re-enacted the provisions of the Act of 1914 and added one or two penalties on aliens, particularly with regard to sedition. The Act of 1919 placed upon aliens disabilities of two kinds. It placed upon enemy aliens certain disabilities with regard to their staying in this country. It placed upon aliens who were allowed to remain here certain disabilities with regard to residence, qualification for holding estates, and so on. But all these disabilities were placed in the Act for three years only, and, therefore, as the Act was passed in December, 1919, the disabilities have disappeared and for practical purposes are not now in existence.
The Acts of 1914 and 1919 stated in their preambles that they were passed in time of War or great national emergency. I think everyone will agree that of all the emergencies that have arisen since the War, and an emergency perhaps as great as the War, the chief is the great disaster of unemployment which is now causing us so much discussion. When we are told, as we are in the "Labour Gazette "this week, that there are 1,340,000 unemployed, the time is surely one of great national emergency, when we should consider whether we cannot find a way of restricting the immigration of aliens to this country. I certainly do not want to put on irritating restrictions against people who have a right to be here and who come here for the benefit of this nation as well as of themselves. I do not want to remove from England our proud boast that political refugees can always find an asylum here. I do not want this country to cease to be an asylum or refuge or sanctuary for the political refugee or for the person who is suffering from religious persecution. But I do want the Government to see that all the people who come to this country shall come pure, shall not come to pollute our nation with such things as the traffic in cocaine or the white slave traffic, shall not come here as burdens to our State, to fill our prisons or our hospitals.
I beg to second the Motion.
The House is indebted to my hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Mr. Crook) for having taken advantage of the opportunity offered to him to bring forward this Motion. I had thought, having regard to the terms of the Motion, that an hon. Member on the Labour benches would probably have risen to second it, because it will be observed that the Motion suggests that, owing to the condition of unemployment in this country, it is of the utmost importance not to admit any immigrants who will still further prejudice the chances of employment of those people now out of work. There is, in the public mind to-day, an uneasiness on this question which I hope the Home Secretary, when he comes to reply, will be able to dispel. As the Mover of the Motion observed, certain provisions in the Aliens Act, 1919, have now expired and, although I understand the Government is able to say that, in the last few years, the number of aliens who have left this country is in excess of the number who have come here and that, on the balance, we have lost some 4,000 of our alien population, yet I feel rather doubtful as to how these figures are arrived at. I think the figure mentioned is the balance, as stated in another place this afternoon. I also understand some alteration has been made in calculating the figures of alien immigrants and that what are called trans-migrants are separated in the figures from those who come here to live or have lived here. In other words, that passenger traffic which is of some value to the country—people from other countries passing through England on their way to America and elsewhere—that kind of immigration of a purely temporary passenger nature, is now shown separately in the official record. I should like the Government to explain, if they can, how this apparent decrease in alien population has come about, while on all hands, especially in the large towns, the direct contrary would appear to be the case. It is within the knowledge of hon. Gentlemen in this House who represent large borough constituencies that the number of foreigners taking up their abode in our large towns appears to be on the increase. I am not suggesting that those newcomers are all undesirables—far from it —but we want to know what steps are being taken to ensure that only those who are able to maintain themselves without encroaching upon the possibilities of our own people's employment, are being allowed to settle here.
We want to be assured that very strict supervision is being exercised in admitting aliens, and, in particular, I should like to ask the Home Secretary what steps are taken to exclude that particularly undesirable type of person of whom we have heard so much recently, the alien revolutionary agitator. [ Interruption. ] It is a very regrettable thing that a Member of this House cannot refer to that unfortunately well-known type of character, the alien revolutionary agitator, without drawing jeers of some sort from hon. Members opposite. I should have thought, in the light of a statement made by the Leader of the Opposition quite recently, that hon. Gentlemen opposite would have deemed it part of their political stock-in-trade to echo statements deprecating the admission into this country of anybody who is in any way associated with Bolshevist propaganda, but the comments I have heard for the last few weeks from the other side lead me to assume that the sentiments expressed by the Leader of the Opposition in relation to Bolshevism are not fully shared by hon. Gentlemen opposite. I hope the Home Secretary will be able to assure the House that not only are very strict measures being taken to prevent the further importation of this most undesirable and useless raw material, but that many who are at present domiciled in this country will in due course be invited to leave. There are few subjects which exercise the public mind from time to time more acutely than the question of alien immigration. We may be invited to discuss an Amendment to this Motion which refers to the right of asylum. It has been our custom to grant the favour of an asylum to certain alien refugees, but surely we do not admit that any refugees have a right to come into this country unless we wish to grant them that favour. It would be out of order, perhaps, to go into the question of passports in detail, but I think it relevant to the Motion to ask the Home Secretary what steps are being taken to facilitate the passage to and from this country of aliens who are bonâ fide engaged in business. That is a matter which has caused question and Debate in this House on many occasions. I hope my right hon. Friend, whilst giving assurances of a kind which Members on this side of the House hope to hear, will also be able to say that, so far as his Department is concerned, irritating restrictions on exit from or access to this country will in the near future be removed as far as possible.
I rise to oppose this Motion, and in so doing I should like, first of all, to pay a tribute to the very moderate manner in which the case has been put before this House by both the Mover and Seconder of the Resolution. I represent a portion of the borough in London that has the largest alien population. I have been mayor of that borough, and I am in very close touch with many persons of alien birth. I am well aware that in the baser parts of the Press attacks are very frequently made on many of my fellow citizens of that borough, and I am extremely pleased this evening that nothing of the sort has come from either the Mover or the Seconder, except, perhaps, for a few remarks from the latter, which I will deal with, on the subject of revolutionary agitators from abroad. In my opinion these Alien Restriction Acts are thoroughly bad Acts; they are examples of panic legislation; they represent a type of mind that we see perhaps in its finest efflorescence in the Duke of Northumberland. There is a sort of extraordinary prejudice against persons of every country except your own, there is a sort of crude nationalism in which, while people restrict aliens from coming to this country, they at the same time press for the abolition of visas and passports when they want to travel abroad themselves. It is the same sort of class feeling which, while it objects strongly to persons of revolutionary tendencies coming into this country, thinks no objection should be placed in the way of foreign business people travelling free from any hampering regulations in the way of passports and so on.
I thought the hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Crook), who moved the Motion, might perhaps have extended his Tennysonian quotation and added to it, because, in my opinion, to the making of this country have gone a good many other races besides those enumerated in that poem, even with the addition of my Celtic Friends on these benches. In my readings, in economic history, I have read frequently of the great advantage to this country of the immigration of the Flemish weavers and of the French silk weavers. I believe that a good many Dutchmen came over with William III, and I believe that a descendant of one of them is now perhaps the strongest nationalist in this country in the Press. Further, there are a good many Germans who came over with the House of Hanover, and we have from time to time absorbed a very large amount of foreign people, to our strength. It always seemed to me a corrective at the time of the War, when people were talking about aliens, to have a glance at the Army List and to note the names that one saw there. One might also perhaps glance at the list of Members of this House, which appears not to be entirely composed of Anglo-Saxon or Danish or Celtic names, and I would recommend anyone who is rather chary of admitting the claims of some aliens to come into this country to look again at the Army List of the War period, and particularly those pages containing people whose names begin with "Sch," and see what a vast number there are.
As a matter of fact, the whole basis of this Motion is false. There has not been a tremendous increase in the number of aliens, for, as a matter of fact, immigration and emigration of aliens about balance, and I was glad that the hon. Member for East Ham, North, pointed out that not all aliens are undesirable, but I would go further and point out that aliens are not necessarily desirable when they are rich and undesirable when they are poor. I notice very often that the aliens who are undesirable are supposed to be those who live in the borough of Stepney, and not those whose residence is nearer to Park Lane, and, apparently, if you are going to deal with aliens, you have got to consider their social desirability. As to the import of aliens here, a certain number of aliens have come in, but you must remember that they do not as a rule come in as capitalists, or, if so, they do not come to our end of the town. They come if they are employed by somebody, and I should have thought it was very simple, having regard to the well-known patriotism of the employers of this country, who, I know, are supposed. always to give a preference to ex-service men, not to employ aliens, but I believe some of my hon. Friends from Scotland can tell us that there are large contingents of persons of alien birth who were imported as strike breakers into this country. The hon. and gallant Member for the Hulme Division (Lieut.-Colonel Nall) mentioned the burden on the Poor Law. As a matter of fact, in my borough you will find the persons of foreign birth very rarely coming on to the Poor Law. We have an admirable institution—the Jewish Board of Guardians—a voluntary Board, which looks after its own people, but I can give the hon. and gallant Member an example of where we had a burden in the parish of Limehouse.
If the hon. and gallant Member is referring to my speech, I would remind him that I said nothing whatever about burdens on the Poor Law.
I beg the hon. and gallant Member's pardon. I think it was the Mover of the Motion who suggested that the aliens were a burden on the rates. I will give an instance of that, and that was in the parish of Limehouse, where we had an unfortunate crew of Somalis who were landed in this country oft their ship, and who were a burden on the parish of Limehouse, presumably employed by some of our patriotic ship-owners. That is exactly where the fault of this Act comes in. We have a lot of vague talk about sedition, but sedition is one of those question-begging words of which our opponents are very fond. We, too, use it sometimes. We are often denounced as seditious, and sometimes we talk about the hon. Members opposite who made war in the north of Ireland as seditious, but sedition, as a matter of fact, is a word that applies to the activities of people with whom you happen to disagree. If someone came over connected with the revolutionary movement abroad, he might be considered under this Act to be engaged in sedition, sedition, of course, being the overthrow of a settled Government—that is to say, if he was a Red trying to overthrow a White Government—but if he happend to be a White, particularly with a handle to his name, trying to overthrow a revolutionary Government, then it seems to me that the Aliens Act is not applied. We claim that there should be a little more impartiality in this matter.
I am sure the Mover and Seconder of the Resolution were quite sincere in their realisation of how unrestricted immigraton might do harm to our unemployed, and I am sure they are genuinely anxious to see that a high standard is kept up in Britain for the workers, but this particular Act which they are wanting to see enforced is deliberately directed to prevent trade union organisation amongst persons of alien birth, in order, presumably, that their employers may pay whatever wages they choose and prevent them organising, and then undercut their competitors. As a matter of fact, we have had a good many examples of that sort of thing in my own borough, particularly among those engaged in the clothing trade. It is so easy to say that a trade union organiser is engaged in sedition; there are people in this country who see in the most respected and conservative- minded trade union leader a red bolshevik. That sort of restriction is all wrong. There is also political sedition. You have certain people here who are aliens, and therefore they are not to take part in any activities whatever. That is a very dangerous weapon to put into the hands of any Government, and I would not put that particular power into the hands of a Government of my own friends. It is easy at present to stop trade unionists, it is very easy to stop political persons of a revolutionary tendency, but suppose we had another Government in power, a Labour Government, we might then do something to suppress some of the sinister activities of international capitalists.
Hear, hear! Zaharoff!
Some of them seem to be Dutch or Greek, and they seem to have a wonderful power of finance to flit about between country and country without much regard to alien restrictions. Then we might find it necessary to suppress, perhaps, some of the people who have world-wide interests of capital instead of labour. I think that it is a very dangerous thing to put any power of this sort into the hands of a Government, particularly when you have a vague word like "sedition." Sedition, as I say, may mean anything whatsoever.
A word about these dreadful foreign revolutionary agitators, who, if I may say so, put the wind up my hon. and gallant Friend opposite. As a matter of fact, this country is really the home of revolution far more than the Continent. There was a very able book published a short time ago, which I commend to hon. Members opposite. It is the "History of British Socialism," written by Max Beer, an Austrian, who laid it down that the truly revolutionary race in the world was the British. I assure my hon. and gallant Friend opposite that there are quite as dangerous revolutionaries, and, if you like, as wild revolutionaries, home-grown as any imported. I would also ask the hon. Member to look back a little into history, and think of the people he would have thrown out of this country as undesirable aliens. I have no doubt he would have given short shrift to Mazzini, and short shrift to many of the great leaders of thought, because, after all, the people who are believed to be the sowers of sedition one age are generally revered as the saints and reformers of the next age.
I am not suggesting that there should not be a certain amount of care taken with regard to migration. That care is needed. What I am saying is, that it must be fairly done, and properly done. I quite agree that you have to have a certain amount of care, but I say that this sort of Motion does very much to enhance the reputation our country has on the Continent for hypocrisy. Britishers go everywhere; they insist on being allowed to go everywhere. They plant their colonies everywhere. They insist, in Turkey, on having certain Capitulations to look after their interests. Our Friends opposite, however, set up a claim to put up a sort of ring-fence round this island against foreigners. I do not say we should invite the whole world straight away. I know that, under present circumstances, that would simply mean that the capitalists of this country would introduce people with a low standard of life in order to try to bring down the standard of living in this country, as they are doing, as a matter of fact, as much as they can. I quite agree, that until we get our international organisation better, we cannot pretend to throw open the whole of this country to alien immigration, but an Act of this sort is an Act of panic legislation. The amending Act of 1919, which was more drastic still, was passed by the Parliament elected to carry on the War into Peace time, and it was natural that they should try to make it even stronger than it was before.
I say that at the present moment this Act is an insult to other nations in the world. I say that, so far from it being strengthened and put into force, it ought to be abolished; but if it is to be put into force, let it be done equally all round. Punish your Reds if you like, but punish your Whites at the same time. I do not know whether hon. Members opposite accept this, but while they may want to keep out the criminal, remember that in our view mere poverty is not a crime, and to say that the people coming are poor does not condemn them in our eyes, nor does the fact that they are very rich commend them in our eyes. I hope the House will reject this Motion, which, I think, is not supported by exist- ing facts. It is an endeavour to enforce legislation that was bad at its inception, and the whole Motion is badly timed altogether. It is an example of that extreme nationalism which is at the present moment ruining Europe and the world. So far from wishing to put up a barrier against other nations, we ought to be realising by this time that we cannot cut ourselves off from the rest of the world. What we on these benches believe in is not accentuating the differences between nations, but dwelling rather on the points of agreement, and I hope that before very long these Acts will be swept from the Statute Book.
I wish also to oppose the Motion, and I do so for a good many of the reasons to which the House has just listened. Our countrymen have poked their noses into every corner of the globe, and it has always seemed to me an extraordinary thing that this House should contemplate putting up barriers, or should put up barriers, against other people coming here. There is a sort of charge against the alien workman that he comes here, works very hard, takes very low wages and produces very much more for the wages he receives than the British workman. I would like to point out that, if that be so, the only people who are advantaged are the friends of hon. Gentlemen opposite. Some capitalists must employ these people, some capitalists must make profits and dividends out of their labour, and, as has already been said, the patriotic gentle-gentlemen who are always talking about the King's Seal cannot be objecting to making money out of these alien workmen. The Act we are discussing to-night is one that is very lop-sided indeed, both in its operation and in the principle which underlies it. I look upon it as an Act of Parliament levelled definitely against agitators, and against men who are considered guilty of propagating views with which hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite disagree.
It must be that, or you could not at this moment admit Princes and ex-Queens, and the relatives of those people, into this country without any inquiry. The Dowager ex-Empress of Russia was admitted here as an honoured guest after the revolution. No one objected to her admission. I would not raise a voice nor a hand to keep her or any other decent in- dividual out. When you are discussing revolutionaries and other people you must allow us—or you must allow me, at any rate—to discuss the matter from my point of view. You have no right to admit a "White" Russian, whether an ex-Dowager, Empress, or any of the Princes who wish to come into this country, if you object to the "Red" Russians coming into the country. I object to the propaganda of the Russian "Whites" paid for and kept up out of the secret service funds of this country. I object altogether to that, just as I would object to other propaganda if it was paid for in the same manner.
When you come to the question of the alien wives of British subjects, I think it is perfectly monstrous that this House should have passed legislation to the effect that the ordinary English, Scottish, or Welsh woman who happened to have married a German or other alien should be treated as an alien and harried and worried in a most infamous manner. Her Royal Highness—and I say this with great respect—Princess Beatrice, Princess Henry of Battenberg—for, so far as I know, she has not changed her name, and I am proud that she has not, although she is a Princess I can respect a woman that stands by her name—was the wife of a German born husband. She might have been driven out of this country, but was not. I think it is a perfectly outrageous thing that Royalties should be treated in one way, and that other people in another sphere should be treated in another way.
There was a young man, the son of the late Duchess of Albany—because the Royal House of this country is descended from a German family—the Saxe-Coburg family—when the Duke of Edinburgh, the second son of Queen Victoria died, this young man became Duke of Saxe-Coburg. There was no other of Victoria's sons who would take the job on; it was handed over to the grandson, the young Duke of Albany. During the War this House—you who believe in the Constitution, you who believe in royalty—you allowed, at the bidding of the most outrageous propaganda that was ever carried on, this young man, whom you had also allowed to become in fact a German prince, to be called not only a traitor, but you tore down his trappings from the chapel at Windsor. Nothing more despicable than that was ever done in the history of the country. [ Interruption. ] Hon. Members are talking about aliens, and I have the right to challenge your right to challenge my class in other countries. What is sauce for princes ought to be sauce for the ordinary working man! You challenge that young man's nationality. If he had stayed in this country he would have been an ordinary Britisher.
He was treated in the same way as anybody else would have been treated.
9.0 P.M.
Yes, because he acted up to the nationality imposed upon him, he was not old enough to have a judgment of his own in the matter. That is a well-known fact. Nothing, not the most virtuous indignation on the part of hon. Members opposite can get over that. You like these observations, do you?
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would address the Chair.
I am obliged, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but if an hon. Member stands on his feet to interrupt me, I feel it is only natural that I should address myself to him. I am very sorry. I want to say that this question of the immigration of aliens bristles with all kinds of difficulties. I was trying to show first that this law as it has been drawn and as it is applied is not applied equally. You allow one set of these people, who happen to have what is called royal blood, to enter, and they come in quite freely, but not so others. I want to say something with which I am sure hon. Members opposite will not agree. I say that if you keep out any sort of aliens, the really dangerous aliens are those who come and consume a very great deal and produce nothing at all. Let me repeat that for the benefit of the hon. and gallant Member for South Battersea—that the really dangerous people, the aliens that should be kept out, are those who consume a great deal and never produce anything at all.
Hear, hear!
And the aliens whom any country ought to welcome are those who work hard and consume very little, because these add to the general wealth of the community. I have dealt with the case of the wives of aliens. I want now just to say a word or two about certain special cases. I have had a little correspondence with the right hon. Gentleman about one or two cases, and I can multiply them—as I believe most Members on these benches could—I want to take just two. I would point out to hon. Members opposite that under this Act the Home Secretary is entitled to lay his hand on anyone—I mean through his officers—who lands at our ports, put him in prison, and keep him there without any trial, and deport him back to what he supposes to be the land of his origin. I should like to ask hon. Members whether they will agree that such powers should be vested say, in a Labour Minister, so that supposing Prince George of Greece—I think that is the name of the man who was in danger in Athens—instead of sending a ship for him, if he had got a ship and landed here, would hon. Members opposite be willing that a Labour Home Secretary should have the power to take him, put him into Brixton Prison, keep him there without trial, and subsequently deport him? If not why should you treat Prince George of Greece, who certainly, according to the newspapers, was no friend of this country during the War, neither was his father, why—[An HON. MEMBER: "It was Andrew, not George!"]—I told you I did not know his name. Perhaps he has not got a name. But I mean the prince we sent a battleship to bring away. [HON. MEMBERS: "That was Andrew!"] The point I am making is that if a prince was in difficulties of this character and managed to get to these shores, would hon. Members agree that the Labour Home Secretary should put him into gaol because he was an enemy alien, or on the ground that he was an undesirable alien in so far that he could not work for his living? Should we put every one of these princes and princesses into prison when they landed in this country? Our argument is that the right hon. Gentleman does not administer the law in the right fashion, he does it in a lop-sided fashion against trade unionists, socialists and communists.
I want to take up the challenge that has been thrown out by the hon. Member for the Hulme Division (Lieut.-Colonel Nail), who said that we ought to support this Motion as followers of the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald). I do not think that the people who agree with me should be the only people who ought to be allowed to land in this country. I believe that every decent sort of person should be allowed to land here. I am in favour of anybody with any propaganda being allowed perfect freedom to put forward their propaganda. If hon. Members opposite imagine they are going to stop either the Labour, the Socialist or the Communist movements, or even proletarian Sunday schools, by persecution or repression then they are making the greatest mistake of their lives.
Every bit of history proves that to be so, and I want to emphasise that, so far as we are concerned, we do not object to the propaganda of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), and I should not object to the same sort of propaganda from the right hon. Gentleman's friends in Paris or Berlin, the Ruhr, Moscow or anywhere else. I should be quite willing to learn all I could from them, and if I could not learn anything from them I should be sorry that they were wasting their time. The notion that because these people come here, and because they are Bolshevists they should be persecuted, is a monstrous proposition. You have a place called the Russian Embassy which by all law should belong to the Russian nation. There you have kept in being a set of men who claim always to be speaking for the Russian nation and the Russian people, but they are alien altogether from the present Russian Government, and yet you have allowed them to carry on a propaganda in this country against the Bolshevist Government of Russia.
It happens that I happen to be opposed to the particular form of Communism which is in force in Russia at this moment, and is propagated by the Communists, but I am also opposed all round to the propaganda of hon. Gentlemen opposite. The one thing that I oppose Bolshevism and Communism for is on the pure and simple question of force and violence, and I should be against hon. Members opposite as well on that point. I was against you during the War, and I should be against you if you commenced another war. When you say that these men who land here, and who want to preach Com- munism should not be allowed to land, I say they have as much right to preach Communism, with all its implications, as had the right hon. Gentleman, who is now the Prime Minister, the right to preach open and undisguised revolution in regard to the Ulster question.
Here, again, you cannot divide these things up, and say, "We will have sedition when it suits us, and we will put it on the shelf or persecute you when it does not suit us." If a Communist comes to this country he is pounced upon and flung into prison. Not long ago, my own son came from Australia on a ship which brought two or three refugees. They wanted to get to Moscow, and the right hon. Gentleman and the authorities in Australia were determined that they should not get there. Most of them did get there in spite of all this opposition. The Mercantile Marine are not so unjust with people they disagree with as the British Australian and other Governments are.
Let me remind you that the arch villain of all this, Sir Basil Thomson, has put it on record that he supports the League of Nations because you will have at hand such good machinery for the purpose of putting your hand on these agitators in various parts of the world. The Home Secretary carries out that policy in an excellent manner. There was a man landed in this country in the early part of October and he was put into Brixton Prison. He was not brought up for trial, but he was kept there till the middle of January. I wrote to the Home Secretary about this case. The man's name is spelt Tjorn, but I do not know how to pronounce it. [ Laughter. ] Hon. Members laugh because a man s name is spelt somewhat different from our own names, but it only shows their colossal ignorance. I cannot pronounce any foreign names. This man was kept in prison from October right to the beginning of January without any trial whatever. Now I ask any hon. or right hon. Gentleman opposite, would this country tolerate any Englishman being taken up in Russia and kept in prison without a trial for that period of time?
You are already alarmed because the Russians have exercised in certain cases the power of every other civilised Government—[HON. MEMBERS: "Civilised?"]—certainly they are as civilised as the Government that bombs unarmed people in the villages of Iraq and starves little children in all our great cities. I understand that the Noble Lord the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon), who is following every word that I am saying, has been asking questions about the wicked Soviet Government which has arrested British people who have been doing what they ought not to have done. My point is that this House should not tolerate the arresting of men and women and throwing them into prison without trial, and keeping them there for months on end. That is what is done not in one case only. I would like the right hon. Gentleman when he speaks to tell us how many men and women have been dealt with in this fashion in all these years since the Armistice. Let him tell us how many cases, during the year ending Christmas, 1922, there have been where men have been flung into prison without trial, and have been kept there for months and then sent off they do not know where. Often the Red Russian in this country has been deported not to that part of Russia where the Soviet Government was in control, but to the other part controlled by the Whites in order that the White Government may deal with him. It is perfectly infamous that anything of that kind should have been done.
I want to call attention to the case of a boy. No one wishes that diseased persons should be brought in for the purpose of spreading disease amongst our people. I live in the midst of masses of these people, and have done so for a good many years. Like the hon. Member for Stepney, I have been mayor, borough councillor and guardian going on for over 32 years. These people are very poor, but man for man, woman for woman, and family for family they take care of their children and keep themselves as decent and as wholesome as is possible in the crowded conditions under which they live. They are sober, intelligent and hard working. None of us, I say, want to bring in disease, and we are perfectly willing there should be inquiry where there is any danger of that. But here is a case not of an enemy alien, but a case of a boy the son of a Pole. The Poles are now our most devoted friends; they are part and parcel of the great Allies. This boy's father died some years ago; his mother has been in this country 15 years; he had a stepfather who died a little while ago in an asylum. The stepfather had to give a statement as to the age of his stepson. He gave it as 16 instead of 18, and the boy was sent back to Belgium. He tried to get into this country himself. His mother, meanwhile, was living in Stepney and earning a living for herself and for her five children as a street seller of goods. The boy got on to a boat, but, when he landed, his clothes were very bad, and, without being allowed to communicate with anyone, he was sent back. Then he made another effort to get here. He became a stowaway, but was captured at Tilbury, and, without anyone being allowed to communicate with him, without being allowed to communicate with his mother or friends, he was taken before the Bench—he could hardly speak English—and was sentenced to a month's imprisonment and deportation to Belgium.
This is the cruel part of the case. The police authorities knew where the mother lived. They knew her solicitor had been down to the Bench and that the Chairman of the Bench was very sorry there had been no sort of appeal against the deportation order and sentence. The magistrates were sorry they had not had more information about the case. Although the police knew where the mother was, they did not tell her that the boy was in this country they sent him away without any communication with her whatsoever. The boy is now stranded again in Belgium. There is no question of sedition here. There is nothing but a breach of the immigration laws. I say common, ordinary decency and justice ought to have induced the prison authorities and the right hon. Gentleman to have sought at least some further information about the position of the woman, before carrying out the sentence of deportation. Surely the unhappy boy might have been allowed to see his mother and get some money from her to carry on with when he reached the other side of the water. But nothing was done. The boy was shoved off without any sort of communication with his people. The present Mayor of Stepney, who belongs to the party represented by hon. Gentlemen opposite, together with the members of his council and a large number of people in his district signed a memorial to the right hon. Gentleman asking that the boy should not be deported. I want to point out the tremendous hurry with which the deportation was carried out. Within a day or two of the boy's release from prison, without allowing time for any effort to be made in this House or elsewhere to get the order rescinded or held up, this boy of eighteen, who is not a Bolshevist or a Socialist, but is simply an ordinary boy who wanted to come and live with his mother and help her to get a living, is hustled out of the country as if he were the greatest criminal on earth.
What was the date of this?
It has occurred within the last week. I have had no chance of raising it since I wrote to the right hon. Gentleman on the subject. I now want to ask the House: Do we desire to go on administering this law in a more stringent fashion? Do we want to have this kind of law at all? So far as I am concerned, I agree with those who say that if it were a question of flooding the country with aliens we should be justified in saying this sort of thing must stop, because the country's first duty is to its own people. But there is no such question here, and I may tell the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London another thing, and that is that we should first of all keep out from this country the sort of people who only want to come here to make money out of our unhappy people. It is the parasitical classes we should want to keep out first.
So far as health is concerned, we want that safeguarded in every possible way. We claim the right, as it was claimed, I think, last night, to rule 300,000,000 people in India. We claim the right to go anywhere the British flag goes. In my lifetime you have shot down Zulus, Afghans, Ashantis, and Abyssinians; people of every tribe and country in the world outside Europe. You have shot them down like cattle, imposing your will upon them, and making them receive your people and concede to them the right to live in their country. You have also wiped out the native races of Australia. The white races have wiped out the red man of America. That being so, this country, of all countries, ought to be the last to put up a barrier against decent, honest, wholesome people coming in. This country ought not, at this time, to deny a right of asylum to those who preach any doctrine, however much we may be opposed to it. Men were opposed to Mazzini; men were opposed to Kossuth; men were opposed to Kropotkin. People were bitterly opposed to all these three and to their propaganda, believing their doctrines were as destructive of human society as you believe Bolshevism to be to-day, yet, all those years ago, this House of Commons, I am proud to think, stood for the right of asylum, and for the right of Britain to be the land of the free. People were free, at least, to think, in those days; free to speak, to organise, and to write. Cur fathers were proud to do these things. We have come now to a time when, if hon. Members had their way, they would put down freedom for us on these benches. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]Yes they would. This sort of legislation shows that.
I ask all those who have a remnant of the old British spirit in them to join with us, and to say that our country shall be free for all those who have anything to give us—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—I knew you would laugh at that—either in intellectual attainments or in work. We have received very much from the peoples of the world. We have been parasitical on the people of India, and on the people of Asia generally, for generations. We have been the receivers. We have received untold gifts from the revolutionists of the Continent. Over and over again they have taught us how to organise and how to build our lives anew. At this time of day, when you are talking about bringing Europe in concert with itself, there ought to be freedom for us to go from here and for others to come here.
We have listened to two speeches, both of them interesting, though totally different in character. Nobody on this side of the House denies that both the last two hon. Gentlemen spoke with great sincerity and with great belief in what they were saying. I ask, however, that the last speaker should be at least consistent, because he wavered on the side of patriotism and then he went to the very antithesis of that and quoted from history. I do not think his quotation is altogether to be relied upon. When he is so proud of our fathers—by which I assume he means the mid-Victorian or early-Victorian era—surely he forgets that the ruling classes at that time were as tyrannical and probably more tyrannical towards the very party by which he is surrounded at the present moment than at any time since.
I was only talking of the right of asylum in this country. I speak with great respect, but I am quite certain that what I said was right.
The hon. Member cannot so finely distinguish between what is right in one individual and what is wrong. Nobody on this side of the House, nobody in this House or in any House in which I have sat, and I have sat continuously for upward of 17 years, in discussing this question has ever considered England as other than the place where political freedom should exist and where those who flee from oppression in their own country should receive an asylum, a refuge, or a sanctuary. I am not prepared to admit that that has ever really been withdrawn. [HON. MEMBERS: "Trade Union Amendments!"] I do not propose to answer interruptions. As I have remained perfectly still during the Debate, hitherto, I ask that the same courtesy should be extended to me now. What I say is this: A large number of people in this country may from time to time have taken up strong opinions with regard to the efforts of liberators in the various countries of Europe during the last 60 or 70 years. We have never denied the right of asylum to those who came to us, and who were identified with those movements. This is my difficulty. The hon. Member who has just spoken, first of all, dissociated himself from the methods of the Bolshevist Government of Russia. He said: "That is not my method. That is force. Force is not my remedy." Then he invites this country, through its Homø Office, to admit Bolshevists who, if not members there, are supporters of that very Government which is adopting a policy from which he dissociates himself. He insists on their right to come into this country, not merely as refugees, but in order to carry on, openly and unreservedly, the very propaganda which he himself denounces.
Hear, hear!
I call that a paradox. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is common sense!"] I cannot see that it is. I do not understand the common sense or the consistency of denouncing a Government and its works in its own country, and of saying that you are bound to have subjects of that Government, nay, the very Members of the Government itself, in this country, and let them do the very things which you denounce them for doing in their own country. There I leave it.
I am very glad I have had an opportunity of speaking on this Motion, and of following the two hon. Members who have just spoken. One spoke on behalf of Bow and Bromley, and the other spoke as the hon. Member for Limehouse, with wide experience (in recent years) in the East End and as an ex-Mayor of Stepney. I had the curiosity—the hon. Member, I am sure, will pardon me for that—to look at "Dodd's Parliamentary Companion," which contains personal information with regard to hon. Members. It says, in relation to the hon. Member for Lime-house (Major Attlee), that he entered this world of sorrow and trouble in the year 1883. I cannot consider the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) as presenting a parallel case, because I realise that he has been associated with that part of the world for many years past. Either to my credit or my discredit, I was very familiar with that part of the country as a child and in early youth.
A child!
If the hon. Member for Silvertown would only be polite for once it would be a great blessinig to this House, and would commend the House to the country. At present he is most likely to discredit this House and to discredit the party to which he belongs by his very rude interruptions. I am referring to the East End of London as it was in 1868, and right through to the year when my hon. and gallant Friend was born, and I tell him this, that although there was a large poor population—relatively speaking poor—there was not the destitution that has existed since the alien immigration commenced in the early eighties. I can give him streets, if he wants it, which radiate from the parish church of the old village of Stepney which were inhabited by masters and mates of East Indiamen and other ships using the East and West India Docks, all highly respectable class of the community—one family to a house.
The steamers have knocked them all out.
That is not the point. I daresay it is a very awkward thing to point out, but every house in those very streets is now inhabited by sometimes three families of these unfortunate Russian refugees.
May I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman to tell us which they are?
I would rather define the streets, because it is so long since I was there. [ Interruption. ] I left the district in 1881, if hon. Members want to know, except for some Church work which I continued for some years later. I know what I am talking about, and no amount of interruption is going to alter me. Upon my credit as a Member of this House, I say that the condition of things which prevailed down to the time of the alien immigration was vastly different from that which exists to-day. These people—highly respectable families—have been driven out of the neighbourhood by these incursions which have taken place.
Has not that taken place also in the Old Kent Road?
And precisely the same has happened in Bermondsey.
I know the Old Kent Road, in a certain sense; and, of course, the Bermondsey tanyards are enough to send any respectable person away; but I am going to stick to what I can prove, and I say that the borough of Stepney, as we know it to-day—the old parish of Stepney—has been positively ruined by the incursion of these aliens. Whether you go into Whitechapel, or St. George's, or whichever other of the old districts you go to which make up the present modern borough of Stepney, you will find the music hall and entertainment bills printed in Yiddish, and you will find all over the parish public notices printed in English and in Yiddish. Any impartial observer, therefore, will be able to draw the conclusion that the face of the district has been altered by the immigration of these persons—poor wretched creatures, I am prepared to admit they are, who ought never to have been allowed to settle down in one district like that. Would any other country in the world have permitted it? I have been waiting to be told whether any other country in the world would have allowed our countrymen to have settled in the same way and under the same conditions—poor, penniless, competing with their own people.
America.
What have hon. Members to say about the great American Republic, which insists upon the most rigorous immigration laws? The great popular democracy of the modern world protects its own folk and its own industrial workers by examining minutely at the immigration office on Ellis Island everyone who comes into the country, to see that they perform strictly, and not covertly, all the rules of the immigration laws of America. My hon. Friend referred to Australia, but how does he account for a Labour-ruled country, with a Labour Government—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] Yes. It has not been a Bolshevist Government, I admit; it has not been a Communist Government; it has been what I venture to call a bonâ fide Labour Government. [ Interruption. ] I am quite well aware that when you cannot answer your critics you can abuse them, but that will never dispose of any argument. I ask again, and I think with some amount of strength, what about the Labour Government of Australia, that will insist on having none of these people within its shores? What about the Liberal Governments of Canada? Have we ever heard of the relaxation of the Canadian laws—
How many Jews are there in Winnipeg?
I must really ask hon. Members not to continue to interrupt. If such interruptions were allowed all debate would be impossible, and the Division would be taken without any discussion.
I hope it will not go on, because I am sure that in the interests of my hon. Friends it is the worst thing they can do in the eyes of the public. I should like to be able to answer one or two of the points that have been made. The hon. and gallant Member for Lime-house (Major Attlee) said that a certain great writer had declared that we were the most revolutionary nation in the world. I can hardly be expected to admit that, although I am sufficiently a student of history to know that we have on two occasions—one accompanied with blood and the other perfectly bloodless—altered the ruling monarch, and to some extent the form of Government.
By Act of Parliament.
Yes, by the Act of Settlement, I agree, and, on the first occasion, by force of arms, which my hon. Friend the Member for Bow and Bromley deprecates. [ Interruption. ] I venture to think it was one of the most disgraceful crimes which was ever perpetrated in this country. I want to call attention to the fact that in the early seventies Karl Marx, who was then a refugee accepting asylum in this country, and who then lived in Soho, wrote to one of his fellow-countrymen that the English would never make a revolution, but that if foreigners produced it then they would follow it. That statement was made by Karl Marx, and can be proved if necessary. That being the case, I fail to understand the reference of the hon. and gallant Member for Limehouse to this country being a revolutionary country.
I said we were the most revolutionary thinkers.
So long as it was only thinking— [ Interruption. ] If our hon. Friends would only think, we should be spared all these scenes. Mr. LANSBURY: You had better tell that to one or two of those behind you. Sir H. NIELD: If the hon. and gallant Member changes the word to "thinking," surely I am entitled to refer to it and to say, would that they would always think.
You follow the noble example.
I want to know what about International Labour? When the War was on we had conferences, and sent our Labour representatives abroad—those loyal members of the Labour party who entered the Government. [ Interruption. ] I do not know why they should be derided because they were loyal to their country. They joined the Government in order that the Parliament should be one with the people of Great Britain in face of a common enemy. The time came when they were forced out of the Government, but they did go abroad with the express purpose of trying to arrange, in international conference, Labour laws which would be in harmony one with the other. [An HON. MEMBER: "We are not operating them."] My view is that that is a wholly untrue or misleading statement, but that can be easily ascertained by questioning the Minister of Labour. My belief is that this International Conference hopelessly broke down, because they could get no unanimity on the other side, and the result of it was that the whole thing became futile. Why should we not advocate this Motion to increase the stringency of the immigration laws in order to protect our own workers from unfair conditions? I hope I may be credited with as great a sense of common honesty, if that is conceded to anyone who sits on these benches, as any Member of the House, and I say it is positively dishonest to permit the introduction of these men into the country in order that they may work longer hours or have less money, to the prejudice of our own British workers. For the life of me I cannot understand the inconsistent position which is taken up by people who call themselves the Labour party in refusing to do a measure of real justice to those whom they purport to represent. I say purport to represent, because long experience has convinced me that those who make that claim have no right to make it.
I should like also to reply to a phrase which was used, I think, by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley, that we have collared as much of the world as we can, and now we want to keep other people out of this country. What would be the position of the native races of those great Colonies which, during a period extending over 200 years, have been absorbed by white populations—
They could not be worse than they are in Australia and America. They are dead.
What would be the condition of those people to-day if the white people had never gone there? [HON. MEMBERS: "They would have been aiive!"] I think the conditions of those natives would have been very much the same, only accentuated, as the unhappy population of Southern Ireland. They would have been killing each other during the time they have been ruled by white men under laws of peace and justice. What absurdity to talk about India being better off if we had never gone there What absurdity to talk about the aborigines, the blacks, the little folk, who run away at the least appearance of anyone they do not know or understand—the native races of Australia. Would they have been better off if we had never colonised that country? I am, not going to say quite the same thing of the Maoris of New Zealand. They were a very superior native race. [ Interruption. ] Really, the limit has been reached when we have the interruptions which come from Silvertown periodically. For the credit of the House, I sincerely hope his constituents will shortly end his career.
On a point of Order. Is not that an incitement to violence?
I think the hon. Member is able to look after himself.
I protest most vigorously against the suggestion that this race has been guilty of systematic oppression and injustice in the long history of the colonisation of the various countries to which she has gone, and they have no right to introduce suggestions of that kind which are totally foreign to the question into this Debate. I should like to ask the Home Secretary two questions with regard to the administration of the law. I am not for a moment prepared to deny that there are hard cases. I am not prepared to deny that a great deal of attention ought to be paid to those cases which have been mentioned by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley. Cases have been brought to my knowledge which have not altogether reflected credit on the administration of these laws, and therefore I want him to tell me whether in the number of persons, the figures of which he has given more than once, who have come in and have gone out, he can tell me whether the residue who have stayed is, or to what extent, constituted of persons who have been in the past under orders of deportation. I want to know to what extent persons who are remaining in this country in that residue are enemy subjects, because we may be passing through this country a number of persons to whom no exception might be taken, but I am afraid, unless the Home Office is extraordinarily careful in the administration of this law, we shall find the very persons who were responsible for very many of those acts of sabotage in the early days of the War, and who gave us such trouble and anxiety during the first year or so of the War, have been getting back into their old position. I ask the Home Office to pay particular attention to that. In the interests of the worker, in the interests of common sense, in the interest of the country as a whole this Motion ought to be passed and the Government ought to be encouraged to take the necessary steps.
I will not attempt to follow the hon. and learned Gentleman in the rather passionate and discursive address which he has made. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I do not quite understand whether he was not passionate or was not discursive. I say he was passionate because he was inspired by a noble passion, and he was discursive because he covered every part of the world. But I am not going to follow him. He explained that his motive was to protect the interests of the workers. It is a very curious thing that at Washington certain international Conventions were passed which would have assisted to render uniform labour conditions throughout the world—an eight hours' day, for instance— and I never noticed on the part of the hon. and learned Gentleman and his friends any particular activity in pressing the Government to have these matters enacted or even considered. There is another matter in which I have a certain amount of interest—the employment of Chinese seamen in ships. I have never noticed that those people who are so passionate about aliens in this country are also willing to assist in an inquiry, or possibly in some action, in this matter of Chinese labour. The fact of the matter is that this whole business is an echo, and a very unpleasant echo, of War legislation. There is no Act which was passed during the last Parliament, which, from the point of view of democracy, was one of the worst Parliaments that ever sat, which was more discreditable than this Aliens Act which we are now considering. One Section of it, happily defunct now, absolutely permits people to inform against persons who are aliens and who they think may be undesirable. One hon. Member thinks it is a good thing. Perhaps he will explain why it is a good thing, when he takes part in the Debate. The fact is that this Act, as has been shown by the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment, is an infringement of the traditional right of asylum, of which this country has been very proud in the past. Such an Act would have excluded a whole category of men who have rendered the greatest possible service to this country, from St. Augustine to Garibaldi. They would have come under the terms of this Act. Science would have suffered, art, music, politics, and trade would have suffered. There is not a branch of the successes of this country which would not have suffered if an Act of this kind had been in force in those days, and had been rigorously enacted.
That was why it was not enforced then.
Exactly. We are doing a thing which they would not have done, and which they would have been ashamed to do.
They had not 1,500,000 unemployed then
It is a most remarkable thing that the opposition to this Resolution, which is put in this specious form, comes from the party best qualified to speak on this subject. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Yes. Nobody is better qualified, I suppose, to speak on behalf of the unemployed than the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury). The first objection to this Act is that it is a violation, and a most unpleasant, nauseating violation—
I did not hear what my hon. and gallant Friend said about me, but if he meant to say that I was a true friend of the working man, he is right.
That is a tribute to my right hon. Friend's qualities of heart. The first objection to this Act is that it is a violation of British tradition, and the second is that it is most inconsistent. It is difficult to maintain an Act of this, kind when in every part of the world we are demanding not only equal but special privileges for our own citizens. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"] Are not hon. Members aware that the Lausanne Treaty is suspended simply because the-Turks refuse to give a privileged position to our own and other nationals. What, then, is the consistency of our going to-Lausanne and asking that British citizens should have privileged positions in Turkey and at the same time supporting, an Act in this country aimed at the exclusion of so-called enemy aliens? [HON MEMBERS: "Ex-enemy aliens!"] I do-not know what is meant by the term '"ex-enemy alien." I thought that was-finished and done with. It is an inconsistent position for us to take up. How does it work out? There is an expensive bureaucracy set up which interferes with the free movement of people. I am not saying anything about migration, which was very justly dealt with by the Mover and Seconder—in a very stupid way.
10.0 P.M.
I will give two examples. The first case shows the suffering of individuals. Here is a case of a man who had been in this country many years, an elderly man. He was a German by birth, who came here early in life. He married a woman, also of German birth, who was brought here as an infant. He was not interfered with during the War. No one suspected or doubted that the man's sympathies were with us in the conflict; but in November, 1918, after the War was over, an order was made and he and his wife were deported to a country which by nationality was theirs, but which they had not seen for three score years. There they are compelled to live, separated from their children, who are all British born. These people are not permitted to return. What possible sense is there in doing a thing like that? Why should the sufferings of these humble people not be considered? Why should some bureaucrat, simply by putting his signature to a paper, be able to separate these people-from their family and cause intense suffering to people who never did anything other than wish us well? I will give another case of a young man who was a Czech by birth. He was born in Czechoslovakia, but was an Austrian subject. He came here and settled down. His father was a manufacturer in Austria. That young man, so his employer told me, was the means of bringing £5,000 in business to the firm, through his connection with the foreign house of which his father was a member. When I wrote to the Home Secretary about it, his reply was:
There are two points which have been missed by hon. Members opposite. We have heard a great deal about the rich alien who consumes a great deal and produces nothing. Let me say at once that I dislike the rich alien just as much as hon. Members opposite, but I do think that they have missed the point. There are hundreds and thousands of aliens coming into this country as waiters in big hotels and restaurants who are taking work away from the English working man. I have had experience of that in my own constituency, and I can assure hon. Members that the English working man is being cut out by these alien waiters, who come here and ask for far less money. In fact, I believe in some cases they pay a premium to the hotels to be allowed to come. The hotel manager should show his patriotism by not employing them, but in the great majority of cases the hotel managers are aliens themselves. That is a point worth considering. Another point is that these alien waiters are occupying houses which are badly wanted for our own workers. Everybody knows the shortage of houses, and hundreds of houses are taken up by these alien waiters and their families. These points should commend themselves to hon. Members opposite.
The gravamen of the charge contained in this Motion is that the introduction of aliens is accentuating our own unemployment. Neither the Mover nor Seconder of this Resolution submitted any evidence in support of this statement. They did not do so because they were unable to do so. That has been verified by the reply of the Home Secretary only yesterday, that on careful examination of the particulars of all these persons who had come from abroad in November, December and January last, it appears doubtful that any of them would properly come within the common acceptance of the term "alien immigrants." Again, on the 12th December, in reply to a question as to how many aliens we had admitted during last year, how many found employment, and whether any British workmen or women were displaced by the employment of such aliens, the Home Secretary replied: And the Home Secretary added:
No Member of this House will dissent from the proposition that probably the most difficult country on the surface of the Globe in which to obtain a living at the present time is Britain, and that if aliens were to attempt, except under proper provision, to secure a footing in these islands then they would possess that courage and endurance and optimism which we ought to welcome in our midst. But the fact is that such immigration does not take place. I can well understand hon. Gentlemen opposite being afraid of the importation of revolutionary ideas, because they are surfeited with revolutionary sentiments and actions. During the last four years there have been revolutions in our fiscal system. What could be more revolutionary than the Safeguarding of Industries and kindred Acts of the late Government and at this moment of international politics what could be more revolutionary than the attempt on the part of the British Government to put down the Government of Russia at such enormous expense to ourselves? We flatter ourselves that we are a good colonising people. We are proud of it, but what is colonising but taking up the profession of an alien, and in foreign countries we ourselves are aliens? We could only act, as we do under the Aliens Act, by virtue of the enormous prestige, power and commercial supremacy which we enjoy, and which would be impossible if we were a small nation. If we were to be treated by other nations as we treat the sons and daughters of foreign nations then it would go exceedingly hard with the British who settle in such numbers abroad. I have here "Dod's Parliamentary Companion" and I observe under the heading "Major F. W. Fawkes, Yorkshire, Pudsey and Ottley Division," that this gentleman, who is a Member of this House, is a descendant of an Italian refugee, Guy Fawkes.
Is it not a fact that Guy Fawkes died unmarried?
If I may respond to that interjection it is well known on these benches that many of the ancestors of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen were alleged to be unmarried.
Only on these benches? [ Interruption. ]
The hon. Member is making a maiden speech, and I am sure that the House will give him a patient hearing.
I was about to end my remarks by putting a question to the House. I addressed to the House generally, and particularly to the Treasury Bench, a quotation from "Dod's Parliamentary Companion," and the question I put to them is, "What about it?"
I have no complaint to make of any of the speeches made in this Debate, although I have been criticised strongly from both sides of the House. What I shall try to prove to the House is that I have sought to administer this Act fairly and in the best interests of the working people of this country. I am asked by three hon. Members whether we are not admitting a great number of aliens, and what they call ex-enemy aliens, which, I might explain to some hon. Members, means persons who belong to countries with which we were at war during the Great War. What I will show is that the present administration of the Aliens Act is fully up to the standard of the Resolution moved tonight. The practice is to scrutinise carefully all aliens landing in this country, whether enemy aliens or not. Some hon. Members seem to think that because a section of the Act of 1919, dealing with ex-enemy aliens, has lapsed, the Home Office has no power to exclude ex-enemy aliens any longer. That is a complete fallacy. Under the Aliens Order of 1920 the Home Office has power, and has exercised it, to keep out of the country aliens, whether they be ex-enemy aliens or not, who are thought to be superfluous to the needs of this country. Whether they are German or Portuguese we have followed the same practice, with the sole idea of preventing workmen coming from other countries to compete with British labour in this country.
To a question put to me by one hon. Member I will give the best answer I can. He said that a great number of aliens come to and pass through this country, but that some are left here. He wanted to know what was the residue of ex-enemy aliens and what they were doing. I do not think I can do better than read an answer which I gave to an hon. Member a few days ago. He asked the number of former enemy aliens who were admitted to this country during the last three months and allowed to remain here, and to what extent persons remaining are identical with persons formerly resident here and who were deported or expelled following on the out beak of hostilities. The answer was that 3,389 former enemy aliens landed in this country in November, December and January last and of these 385 were persons still resident in the United Kingdom who we pre returning after short absences abroad; 181 were persons in transit to other countries; 2,405 were business and other visitors who were all landed subject to a short-time condition—because we impose conditions on aliens landing in this country, so that we can keep them under very close supervision. Ninety-five were diplomats and persons on foreign Government missions, and 299 were seamen under contract to join foreign ships in British waters, leaving a balance of 24 persons who did not come under any of the foregoing categories. Of these 24 persons, 21 were females and three were males. Of the 21 females, 14 were British-born wives or widows of former enemy aliens; three were domestic servants coming to a foreign Legation; one was a woman coming to marry a British subject; one was the newly married wife of a German resident in the United Kingdom; one was a Bulgarian holding a Ministry of Labour permit to act as a companion, and one was an Ottoman, permitted to join her brother, a merchant in this country. Of the three males, one was an Ottoman valet in the service of a British officer; one a domestic servant coming to a foreign legation, and one out of the 3,389—and this will be of interest to the hon. and learned Member for Ealing—only one was a German. [An HON. MEMBER: "Was he a Royal German?"] I do not know his name and I do not care very much whether he was royal or not. He had been given permission to return to his British-born family by the Committee which was set up under Section 10 of the Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act, 1919, but not having at that time been able to avail himself of that permission, he applied for leave to return the other day and was allowed to do so. That shows, I think, pretty clearly, that the present powers enjoyed by the Home Office are being exercised with full effect to keep out those competing with British labour. Any one who comes here to take up a post of employment has to obtain from the Ministry of Labour a permit to do so, and that permit is only given if the Ministry of Labour is satisfied that for that particular job there is no British man or woman available.
I now turn to the criticisms from the other side of the House. I am sorry, after the very kind way in which the Labour party supported my Dangerous Drugs Bill this afternoon, for which I tender them my most grateful and hearty thanks, that I am not so much in accord with them on this subject. The hon. and gallant Member for Stepney (Major Attlee), who led the opposition to this very excellent Motion, said he represented a larger number of foreigners than any other Member in this House.
I said I represented a constituency in a borough which probably contained a larger number of alien birth than any other borough in London.
I do not think there is very much difference between us, but I accept the correction, and I fully understand why he was selected to move the rejection of this Resolution. It is very obvious that he was, of all the hon. Members opposite, the one least likely to lose votes by such action. I venture to suggest that there are not very many Members of this House, even on the Labour Benches, who would be prepared to go down to their constituencies and say that they wanted every alien who desired to come to this country to be allowed to do so freely. A great deal was said, both by him and the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), about differential treatment of rich and poor, of Whites and Reds, propagandists and non-propagandists, and so on. I cannot admit at all that there has been any differential treatment of that kind. As far as I have been concerned—and I think I have followed the action of my predecessor — I have gone on that principle of trying to keep out people who were competing with British labour. That has been my guiding principle. I have naturally also tried to keep out—and even the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley agreed with that—people who were diseased, and also lunatics.
What about the Government?
As I have said, the guiding principle has been to keep out people whose entrance into this country endangered the employment of British workmen.
What about seamen?
Would you keep them out?
The seamen I have admitted, so far as I know, have all been coming here, with the exception perhaps, of a dozen or so out of the 390 I mentioned, to join foreign ships, and very many of them go back to their own countries. A few may have joined British ships.
What about the Clan Line?
As the hon. Member who interrupts me is now on quite a different subject, perhaps he will move a Resolution to carry out what, appar- ently, is his desire in that direction on some other Tuesday or Wednesday evening. I should like to say a word or two about the criticism of the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley. He seemed to think we were obsessed by the desire to keep propagandists out. He said, if I remember aright, that the people whom he wanted to keep out were the people who consumed something and produced nothing.
As a matter of fact, I said I would not interfere with the princes and the rest coming in; I would let them come in.
The hon. Member went further at the end of his speech, for fear some of his constituents might misunderstand him, and he said he would not go so far as to say that all aliens all over the world were to be allowed to come in. His formula is that those who consume something and produce nothing should be kept out. If I adopted that formula, where would the propagandists be? The hon. Member is giving me a formula by which every propagandist could be kept out. He mentioned two or three cases, and the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) mentioned one or two cases. Although I cannot speak very definitely about them, as my memory is not very clear, with regard to one of the cases mentioned by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley, a man whose name neither he nor I can properly pronounce, he complained that that man had been badly treated by being put into Brixton Gaol. This man was a Russian, who had been deported from Australia, and was sent here by the Australian Government en route for Russia. He arrived carrying a false passport.
He was a stowaway.
The hon. Member is talking about another one. He is confusing the two. This man arrived carrying a false passport, and was detained pending inquiries as to his nationality. I suppose there was no harm in doing that. As soon as the Soviet Government gave facilities for his admission to Russia, he was sent away. Then he mentioned another case of a boy. There, I quite admit, there is a hardship about it, but if we have any sort of restrictions at all, I am afraid that a case like this must be dealt with pretty severely. This boy came as a stowaway, and he came over after being three times refused the right to land, so that he knew what he was in for when he came, and if people openly defy the laws of this country, I do not see how else they can be dealt with. The hon. and gallant Member for Leith mentioned two cases, of which I cannot remember all the details, but he mentioned a German and his wife who had been repatriated in 1918, if I remember rightly, at their own request.
That is so.
Then why cannot they stay in Germany?
The right hon. Gentleman is pleased to be facetious, but does he not understand that even if a man is a German, he may desire to rejoin his children, just as this boy wished to rejoin his mother. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why, then, cannot they go back?"]
I was merely trying to explain what the case was, because I do not think the hon. and gallant Gentleman very fully explained himself. He went so far as to say that they had been repatriated under some order of ours, and he has now said that they were repatriated at their own request. I do not see why they cannot stay there, now— and I do not wish in the least to be facetious—and the children as well; so that they may be there together. The other case—I speak from a vague recollection again—was that of the Austrian. He made a false declaration. The hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain W. Benn) was very indignant about the case, but the reason we had to take notice of the false declaration was that the Austrian came under false pretences. He blames me for dealing with cases of that sort that must be drastically dealt with. If there was no harm in the business for which he was here, why did he not say so, and probably he would have obtained permission? Really, I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman will realise that it would be very difficult for a Minister to administer this Act and these Regulations unless he, on occasion, did deal drastically with people who made false declarations.
I would remind the House that this charge that is imposed upon me is not one that I care about very much—if at all. It gives me an immense amount of trouble. I think I have gone personally into the cases of 200 Germans, or enemy aliens, that have tried to get into this country under Section 10 to stay here. In every case it was a German resident who wanted to come back here and rejoin his wife. My principal guide in this matter has been the question as to whether or not this man would displace British labour, and wherever the case was one where the man was likely to displace British labour—unless there was some exceptional hardship in the case—I have decided that he must not be allowed to land. Let me just give hon. Members one case to show the sort of person that I have thought it right to allow to stay, to show to the House how I have felt, and whether I was justified in admitting particular cases.
Here is a German, an oldish man with 20 years' previous residence in the United Kingdom. There is one British-born son, who served in the Army during the War as a non-commissioned officer, and another British-born son who is now serving in the Navy. The father wanted to come here and live with his children, that is, the British-born children. He will be supported by his family here, and, therefore, no question of employment arises. He is treated as a foreigner in Germany. He has been granted leave to come to this country for six months, and then his case will be reconsidered. I do not believe there is a single hon. Member who will not say that in this case I have acted correctly. There are other similar cases—a very few—where there are similar distressing circumstances, and there ought to be some elasticity in the matter. I hope the House will believe me when I say it is distressing and disagreeable in some other hard cases to have to refuse them, but I have to do my duty. It would be the more distressing to me to think that if I let one of these people in a Britisher, perhaps with a wife and family, would be turned out of employment. I am bound to think first of my fellow countrymen. I may be wrong [HON. MEMBERS: "Who would employ him?" and "The Jews!"] What I mean is that I have adopted the principle of not admitting aliens who would be taking the bread out of the mouths of British workmen if they were allowed to land, and in doing so I have come across some very hard cases. Nevertheless, I should have had to face other hard cases here if I had let some of these Germans in, because they would throw out of employment British workmen, who would be left in a sorry plight in consequence. In deciding upon such cases I have to consider the hardship entailed on some British subject by allowing a foreigner to come in. On that principle I have gone, and I hope those who have moved this Resolution will agree that the Aliens Act has been administered efficiently, and I am quite ready to take the opinion of the House upon it.
We all appreciate very much indeed the patriotic sentiments expressed by the Home Secretary. I believe in British work for British people, but I want to discover who are the British people. We have travelled all over the world, and claimed the right to go everywhere and do just as we like, and ask permission afterwards. Those of us who live in the East End of London know that when we are engaged in industrial trouble the employers never ask what is the nationality of the men they employ. We have a dispute in London now, and aliens are being used to break the strike, and the gentleman who is running the show is an alien himself and a big supporter of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. Therefore, we take your professions of patriotism with a grain, or rather with a pail, of salt. The Home Secretary is ready to stop a foreigner from coming in, and he must have a passport, but he does not stop a whole shipload of foreigners from coming in when they come to the East India Docks to take the place of British sailors who are thrown out of work while Chinese are being employed. [An HON. MEMBER: "They are British subjects!"] Yes, they are British subjects from Hong Kong, and the patriots on the other side of the House are the people who employ them at £2 a month less than British sailors, and then you wave the Union Jack in front of union jackasses. So long as you are within the Empire and can live on the smell of an oil rag you are preferable to a British sailor. The German is an enemy, the Austrian is an enemy, the Russian is an enemy, but if you can get some one to work cheaper than an Englishman you will always employ him. If you could discover an animal covered with hair and requiring no clothes, an animal without digestive organs and requiring no food able to do the work the workers now do, there would be no work for any one. Hon. Members opposite even would be out of work; they would not be able to sit in Parliament. If I am anything I I am British. I want to see good work for our own people and I am prepared to support any real policy leading in that direction. But I am not out to keep our people living on the smell of an oil rag, as the ordinary German eats sauerkraut. That is the logic of the hon. Members opposite. It is the game of "Beggar my neighbour." If you can work harder and longer and take less money than some one else you will have a good job. That is the philosophy of hon. Gentlemen on the other benches. We on our side say we are willing to welcome any worker who is a producer of wealth, into the country, under conditions. But what about the abolition of the Trade Boards? The trades into which these aliens go are the very trades in which we have been fighting for years to get Trade Boards established. What are we faced with now? We have got abolished practically the standards laid down by the Trade Boards. You are playing into the hands of the hook-nosed patriots who are singing "God save the King" and singing it in broken English. You are asking us to protect you against invasion of the foreigner. Who employs the foreigner? We do not, because we are not employers of labour, thank God! These alien workmen who come into this country are contracted for on the continent. They can get passports. The only man who cannot get one is the agitator.
He may get a passport, but he cannot get a permit to come in unless the Minister of Labour thinks fit.
The Minister of Labour gives them, because they have got an employer to guarantee them a job.
No.
Oh, yes. There are thousands of them now working for a firm in London because there is a dispute on. [HON. MEMBERS: "When did they come in?"] They have been in now for three weeks. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who is it?"] Go to Tottenham and ask for the information, I am not here to inform you. [HON. MEMBERS; "Name!"] Lebus and Co., Tottenham. Of course, it is not an English name, but he is a patriot and also waves the Union Jack along with the rest of you. We say this, we are not going to put a bar up against any workman. We want you to realise that, so far as we are concerned, this is only a game that is being played—"British work for British workers!"—when, as a matter of fact, you would employ anybody if you could get them to work more cheaply than British workers are prepared to work.
The hon. Member for Pudsey (Major Fawkes) desires me to make an explanation and retraction. He desires me to point out that Dod's Parliamentary Companion is incorrect, inasmuch as he is not a descendant of Guy Fawkes, but that Guy Fawkee was a member of a younger branch of that family. Moreover, Guy Fawkes was not of Italian blood, but was a Yorkshireman and a freeholder of the City of York.
I cannot claim the rights of a maiden speech, or what some other hon. Members sometimes claim, that they have never interrupted. Therefore I am quite prepared to take whatever interruptions other hon. Members may make. The hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) gave me a direct challenge when I said that it was a very good thing that men should be encouraged to lay before Ministers any sound reasons why aliens should be deported from this country. I maintain that the British race is the finest in the world. At the present moment we are more than able to fill this small island. We are exporting from this island all our very best blood to inhabit our great Empire. Every alien who is brought into this country is a distinct detriment. Although -several hon. Members opposite have gone back to the Roman Empire, I say that the present English race is certainly better than any other country can produce. The hon. and gallant Member for Leith, as usual, has generated more indignation than he was able to contain. He seemed to think that I should be ashamed to stand up for the interjection I made, but I am not. I consider that when we are faced with this enormous state of unemployment, it is absolutely wrong, not only to allow foreigners to come in, but not to remove from this country as many foreigners as offend against our laws.
Sack the lot.
I quite agree with the hon. Member. I am not surprised that the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley and the hon. and gallant Member for Limehouse have stood up and expressed a wish for the inclusion of all these aliens.
On a point of Order. I did not say anything of the sort. I never said I wished for the inclusion of all aliens.
And I do not say that I do.
Then the two hon. Members are in favour of a very great relaxation, and the encouragement of many more aliens to come into this country, because I am quite certain that there are many hon. Members opposite who sit there as a result of alien votes. It is quite certain that the hon. Members who come from Glasgow are not here on Scottish votes at all.
rose
I think the hon. and gallant Member has forgotten the provisions of Representation of the People Act.
I beg pardon, Sir.
Had it not been for the Scotsmen, the Germans would have leathered you.
That certain hon. Gentlemen who sit opposite should dare to talk about the Germans coming here, when they, by their actions, caused the death of the gallant 15th Division, which I had the honour of serving beside— [ Interruption. ]
You are a liar! Withdraw it!
I am not quite clear if I caught the purport of the hon. and gallant Member's remark, but it did seem to me to carry a very offensive imputation—a kind of imputation which is never allowed in this House.
I withdraw, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member remarked that if it had not been for Scotsmen the Germans would be here. I happened to remember some of his activities in the War, and I greatly regret that, perhaps, I allowed the heat of the moment, when I thought of my friends, to carry me away. If I have said anything to offend the Rules of the House, or yourself, Mr. Speaker, I most unreservedly withdraw.
rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but Mr. Speaker withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
I want to say something in support of the Amendment. We have heard a good deal to-night about the poor of the East End of London, but I wish to draw the attention of the House to other aliens that come into our country, and I would have no objection if this Motion were to go back—
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The House divided: Ayes, 206; Noes, 134.
Division No. 17.] AYES. [11.0 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.) Ainsworth, Captain Charles England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Apsley, Lord Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. King, Captain Henry Douglas Balfour, George (Hampstead) Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Falcon, Captain Michael Lamb, J. Q. Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague Fawkes, Major F. H. Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Barnett, Major Richard W. Fermor-Hesketh, Major T. Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Barnston, Major Harry Fildes, Henry Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir P. Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H (Devizes) Flanagan, W. H. Lorimer, H. D. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Ford, Patrick Johnston Lougher, L. Berry, Sir George Forestier-Walker, L. Lumley, L. R. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Maddocks, Henry Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Makins, Brigadier-General E. Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Brass, Captain W. Furness, G. J. Manville, Edward Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Galbraith, J. F. W. Margesson, H. D. R. Brittain, Sir Harry Gates, Percy Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Bruford, R. George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Molloy, Major L. G. S. Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Gray, Harold (Cambridge) Molson, Major John Elsdale Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge) Greaves-Lord, Walter Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Butcher, Sir John George Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Morden, Col. W. Grant Button, H. S. Greenwood, William (Stockport) Morris, Harold Cadogan, Major Edward Gretton, Colonel John Murray, John (Leeds, West) Cassels, J. D. Gwynne, Rupert S. Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.) Halstead, Major D. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Nield, Sir Herbert Chapman, Sir S. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Churchman, Sir Arthur Hawke, John Anthony Paget, T. G. Clarry, Reginald George Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh) Penny, Frederick George Clayton, G. C. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Cobb, Sir Cyril Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Peto, Basil E. Collie, Sir John Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Pielou, D. P. Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Pilditch, Sir Philip Conway, Sir W. Martin Hiley, Sir Ernest Preston, Sir W. R. Cope, Major William Hinds, John Raeburn, Sir William H. Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Hopkins, John W. W. Raine, W. Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Hudson, Capt. A. Remer, J. R. Crooke, J. S. (Deritend) Hughes, Collingwood Rentoul, G. S. Curzon, Captain Viscount Hume, G. H. Reynolds, W. G. W. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Hurd, Percy A. Roberts, C. H. (Derby) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Hutchison, G. A. C. (Peebles, N.) Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Dawson, Sir Philip Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) Robertson, J. D. (Islington, W.) Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Doyle, N. Grattan Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Dudgeon, Major C. R. Jarrett, G. W. S. Russell, William (Bolton) Edge, Captain Sir William Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Edmondson, Major A. J. Jephcott, A. R. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Ednam, Viscount Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Shepperson, E. W. Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Shipwright, Captain D. Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley) Whitla, Sir William Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Thomson, Luke (Sunderland) Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Singleton, J. E. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.) Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Thorpe, Captain John Henry Windsor, Viscount Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree) Titchfield, Marquess of Winterton, Earl Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Wise, Frederick Sparkes, H. W. Turton, Edmund Russborough Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Yerburgh, R. D. T. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Wallace, Captain E. Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich) Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Lieut.-Colonel Nail and Mr. C. Crook. Sutcliffe, T. Wells, S. R.
NOES. Adams, D. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Pringle, W. M. R. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Riley, Ben Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hancock, John George Ritson, J. Ammon, Charles George Harbord, Arthur Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Attlee, C. R. Hardie, George D. Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hartshorn, Vernon Saklatvala, S. Barnes, A. Hastings, Patrick Salter, Dr. A. Batey, Joseph Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Scrymgeour, E. Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hayday, Arthur Sexton, James Bonwick, A. Hemmerde, E. G. Shinwell, Emanuel Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Broad, F. A. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Smith, T. (Pontefract) Bromfield, William Herriotts, J. Snell, Harry Brotherton, J. Hill, A. Snowden, Philip Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hirst, G. H. Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Buchanan, G. Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.) Buckle, J. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Stephen, Campbell Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) John, William (Rhondda, West) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.) Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Sullivan, J. Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Cairns, John Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Tillett, Benjamin Cape, Thomas Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Tout, W. J. Chapple, W. A. Kirkwood, D. Turner, Ben Collins, Pat (Walsall) Lansbury, George Warne, G. H. Collison, Levi Lawson, John James Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Leach, W. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lee, F. Webb, Sidney Duffy, T. Gavan Linfield, F. C. Weir, L. M. Duncan, C. Lunn, William Welsh, J. C. Dunnico, H. MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Wheatley, J. Edmonds, G. McLaren, Andrew White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) March, S. Whiteley, W. Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Entwistle, Major C. F. Millar, J. D. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Fairbairn, R. R. Morel, E. D. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Gosling, Harry Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Muir, John W. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Murnin, H. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western) Wright, W. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Nichol, Robert Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) O'Grady, Captain James Groves, T. Oliver, George Harold TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Grundy, T. W. Phillipps, Vivian Mr. Nell Maclean and Mr. Morgan Jones. Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Potts, John S.
Question put accordingly,
"That, in the opinion of this House, having regard to the present circumstances of this country and especially to the condition of unemployment, it is of the utmost
importance that a strict control shall be maintained over alien immigration."
The House divided: Ayes, 212; Noes, 107.
Division No. 18.] AYES. [11.10 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Barnett, Major Richard W. Brass, Captain W. Ainsworth, Captain Charles Barnston, Major Harry Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Brittain, Sir Harry Apsley, Lord Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Berry, Sir George Bruford, R. Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Birchall, Major J. Dearman Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Bonwick, A. Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge) Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Butcher, Sir John George Button, H. S. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Penny, Frederick George Cadogan, Major Edward Halstead, Major D. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Cassels, J. D. Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Peto, Basil E. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Pielou, D. P. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Harbord, Arthur Pilditch, Sir Philip Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Hawke, John Anthony Preston, Sir W. R. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh) Raeburn, Sir William H. Chapman, Sir S. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Raine, W. Chapple, W. A. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Churchman, Sir Arthur Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Remer, J. R. Clarry, Reginald George Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Rentoul, G. S. Clayton, G. C. Hiley, Sir Ernest Reynolds, W. G. W. Cobb, Sir Cyril Hinds, John Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Collie, Sir John Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Collison, Levi Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) Robertson, J. D. (Islington, W.) Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Hopkins, John W. W. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Conway, Sir W. Martin Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Cope, Major William Hudson, Capt. A. Russell, William (Bolton) Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Hughes, Collingwood Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Hume, G. H. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Crooke, J. S. (Deritend) Hurd, Percy A. Shepperson, E. W. Curzon, Captain Viscount Hutchison, G. A. C. (Peebles, N.) Shipwright, Captain D. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Singleton, J. E. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Inskip, sir Thomas Walker H. Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Dawson, Sir Philip Jarrett, G. W. S. Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree) Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness) Doyle, N. Grattan Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Sparkes, H. W. Dudgeon, Major C. R. Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.) Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. Edge, Captain Sir William Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Edmondson, Major A. J. Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Ednam, Viscount Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) King, Captain Henry Douglas Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Sutcliffe, T. Entwistle, Major C. F. Lamb, J. Q. Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley) Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Thomson, Luke (Sunderland) Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir P. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) Lorimer, H. D. Thorpe, Captain John Henry Falcon, Captain Michael Lougher, L. Titchfield, Marquess of Fawkes, Major F. H. Lumley, L. R. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Fermor-Hesketh, Major T. Maddocks, Henry Turton, Edmund Russborough Fildes, Henry Makins, Brigadier-General E. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Flanagan, W. H. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Wallace, Captain E. Ford, Patrick Johnston Manville, Edward Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Forestier-Walker, L. Margesson, H. D. R. Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Wells, S. R. Furness, G. J. Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Galbraith, J. F. W. Molloy, Major L. G. S. Whitla, Sir William Gates, Percy Molson, Major John Elsdale Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.) George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Morden, Col. W. Grant Windsor, Viscount Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Morris, Harold Winterton, Earl Gray, Harold (Cambridge) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Wise, Frederick Greaves-Lord, Walter Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Yerburgh, R. D. T. Greenwood, William (Stockport) Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich) Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Gretton, Colonel John Nield, Sir Herbert TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Gwynne, Rupert S. Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lieut.-Colonel Nall and Mr. C. Crook. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Paget, T. G.
NOES. Adams, D. Collins, Pat (Walsall) Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Hayday, Arthur Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Duffy, T. Gavan Hemmerde, E. G. Ammon, Charles George Duncan, C. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) Attlee, C. R. Dunnico, H. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Gosling, Harry Herriotts, J. Barnes, A. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Hirst, G. H. Batey, Joseph Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) John, William (Rhondda, West) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Broad, F. A. Groves, T. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Brotherton, J. Grundy, T. W. Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Buchanan, G. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Buckle, J. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Kirkwood, D. Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Hancock, John George Lansbury, George Cairns, John Hardie, George D. Lawson, John James Charleton, H. C. Hartshorn, Vernon Leach, W. Linfield, F. C. Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Turner, Ben Lunn, William Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Warne, G. H. MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Saklatvala, S. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) McLaren, Andrew Salter, Dr. A. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) March, S. Scrymgeour, E. Webb, Sidney Morel, E. D. Shinwell, Emanuel Weir, L. M. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Welsh, J. C. Muir, John W. Smith, T. (Pontefract) Wheatley, J. Murnin, H. Snell, Harry Whiteley, W. Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western) Snowden, Philip Williams, David (Swansea, E.) O'Grady, Captain James Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Oliver, George Harold Stephen, Campbell Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Phillipps, Vivian Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Potts, John S. Sullivan, J. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Pringle, W. M. R. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Wright, W. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Riley, Ben Tillett, Benjamin TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Ritson, J. Tout, W. J. Mr. Nell Maclean and Mr. Morgan Jones. Roberts, C. H. (Derby) Trevelyan, C. P.
Resolved,
"That, in the opinion of this House, having regard to the present circumstances of this country and especially to the condition of unemployment, it is of the utmost importance that a strict control shall be maintained over alien immigration."
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Housing (Battersea)
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That this House do now adjourn."—[ Colonel Leslie Wilson. ]
I wish to bring to the notice of the substitute for the Minister of Health an urgent matter concerning the housing problem. I am specially requested by the borough council of Battersea to urge upon the Minister to give it sympathetic consideration and not to set it aside on grounds of party feeling. It is not only a question of the shortage of houses and the delay in erecting new houses, but of a most acute problem which has arisen of rendering existing houses useless by the landlords sheltering behind certain imperfections in the law. In accordance with Section 28 of the Housing and Town Planning Act, 1918, while the municipal authorities are empowered to put in repair certain houses, they are left in a position of great doubt as to ultimately recovering the sums of money spent on such repairs. The Battersea Council is faced with the fact that, having repaired certain houses when the cost was at its highest, they now stand no chance of recovering the sum from the landlords, and have had to come to terms for spreading the repayments over 15 years. Before they can recover the public funds which have been spent on taking care of private enterprise in Battersea, they will have to wait for 15 years. Further, on investigation it has been found that these landlords are not aliens but Britishers, and one happens to be a Scotsman.
The most serious point is that Section 28 does not give any powers to the borough council over the freeholders, and the leaseholders are merely undergoing a process of transferring houses from the name of one leaseholder to that of another, and in the meanwhile the tenants are dwelling in houses which are unfit for use as dwelling places. The municipal authorities have been compelled, in one street in North Battersea, Stanford Street, to take in charge about 25 houses, all in the one street, and they cordially invite a representative of the Ministry to visit these houses, which are specimens. All that they have been able to do there is to strip all the ceilings of the plaster work, which otherwise was falling over the inhabitants at inconvenient moments. They have also been compelled to remove the roofing from the bay windows and such other portions as were simply refusing to hold together. That is a serious position, and I am glad to say that the whole of the inhabitants are on rent strike because they know that morally the landlords do not deserve the rents. The trouble is that the corporation have to put these houses into repair, and they do not know how they will recover the expenses. The request of the Battersea Council is that the Minister should see his way to make an alteration in the Section as quickly as possible, with retrospective power, if possible, and arrange that instead of the landlord and the leaseholder being sued for the recovery of expenses incurred, other arrangements shall be made. If they could permit the corporation to go to the County Court Judge or the Magistrate before the repairs are effected, giving the landlord a reasonable time as adjudicated by the Court, and if he failed to effect the repairs within that time, if the corporation could be allowed to take over charge of the house at its depreciated value, that would be the only way in which a solution could be found. We shall be obliged for an assurance from the Minister that such an alteration can be made speedily.
I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman gave notice to the Ministry of Health, but, if he did, I must apologise on behalf of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks) for his absence. I have endeavoured to find him in order that he should be here to answer the hon. Member, but I am afraid that he has left the House. I will convey the remarks of the hon. Gentleman to the Minister and see that he takes all that he has said into consideration.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-six Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.