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Commons Chamber

Volume 164: debated on Tuesday 15 May 1923

House of Commons

Tuesday, May 15, 1923

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with)

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [ Lords ].

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Calne Water) Bill.

Bills to be read a Second time To-morrow.

Mitcham Urban District Council Bill,

Tees Valley Water Bill,

Read the Third time, and passed.

Thomas Cheshire and Company (Delivery Warrants) Bill [ Lords ],

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

Oakham Gas and Electricity Bill [ Lords ],

Read a Second time, and committed.

London County Council (Money) Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Thursday.

London, Midland, and Scottish Railway Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Thursday.

Standing Orders

So much of Standing Order 91 as fixes Five as the quorum of the Select Committee on Standing Orders read, and suspended.

Ordered, That, for the remainder of the Session, Three be the quorum of the Committee.—( Sir Newton Moore ).

Oyster Fishery (Roach River) Provisional Order Bill,

" to confirm a Provisional Order under The Sea Fisheries Act, 1868, and the Acts amending the same, relating to an Oyster Fishery in the River Roach," presented by Colonel Sir ROBERT SANDERS; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 131.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Ships (Medical Stores)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if, seeing that it is a Board of Trade Regulation that steamships must carry 15 bottles of port and eight bottles of brandy for a crew of 41 or over, he will see that this Regulation is strictly adhered to; and whether he will issue instructions that no clearance papers will be issued to a ship sailing from United Kingdom ports that does not comply with this Regulation?

The Regulations as to the supply of medical stores will continue to be enforced on the various classes of ships to which they apply, and I have no reason to think that further instructions are required.

Trade and Commerce

Live Stock (Returns)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can see his way to making arrangements that in Class I, Group D, of the monthly accounts of trade and navigation the Returns shall show separately the animals consigned as fat, for immediate slaughter, and animals con signed as stores for grazing?

The form of the monthly accounts for the remainder of the present year cannot conveniently be altered, but the hon. Member's proposal will be examined with a view to its adoption, if found possible, in the accounts for 1924.

Trade Facilities Schemes

asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of schemes approved by the Trades Facilities Committee, the amount of money already guaranteed by the Committee, and the rate of interest charged?

The hon. Member will find particulars in the quarterly statements presented to the House, of which the last was House of Commons Paper 49 of 1923. The total guaranteed out of the £50,000,000 authorised by the Acts is £22,720,000. The rates of interest guaranteed vary according to the circumstances and date of the issue, but have usually been from 5 to 5¼ per cent.

Flour (Production and Prices)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that at a recent meeting of the Incorporated National Association of British and Irish Millers a scheme was passed for the compulsory limitation of flour production, with a view to lessening supplies in order to maintain prices; and whether the Government proposes to take any action in the matter?

I have seen a report of a meeting of the Association, at which a Resolution appears to have been passed as to the desirability of organising a scheme to deal with what was stated to be the present chaos of the flour-milling trade due to excess capacity. No further steps appear to have been taken. There seems to be no occasion for any action on the part of the Government.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it was expressly stated that this production of £10,000,000 over what is roughly reckoned to be the ordinary demand must be brought in to maintain prices?

I looked at the account which I saw in the Press and I saw it expressly stated that the trade could conduct this operation, which seems very problematical, without raising prices.

Seamen (Washing Paintwork)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that an inquiry is being held at Southampton into the death of a young seaman on the "Walmer Castle," who was lost while washing paintwork over the ship's side when at sea; whether similar cases have been brought to the notice of the Board of Trade; and if he will take steps to put a stop to this dangerous practice, which endangers the lives of seamen?

An inquiry is being held into the circumstances attending the death of a seaman on the "Briton" who lost his life while washing paintwork over the ship's side when at sea. No similar case has been brought to the notice of the Board of Trade during the past three years. I shall be glad to let the hon. Member know the result of the inquiry.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is often done in the Royal Navy, and that when proper care is taken it is not in the least dangerous?

I understand that it is a very common practice, and so far as my inquiries have gone I understand that if proper precautions are taken there is no danger. I think that that is borne out by the fact that there has been no such accident for three years.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that able seamen do object to being employed over the ship's side when the ships are at sea?

Imported Meat

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give the quantities of imported, chilled, and frozen meat, respectively, now in cold storage in this country, but not including meat in the stores of ordinary retail butchers' shops?

Loss of Steamship "Okara."

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has any further information regarding the sinking of the British India Company's steamship "Okara "; if he can now say when this ship was last inspected; if he is aware that the last record given in "Lloyd's Register" of her survey in this country is of date November, 1895; if she had since been surveyed in India or elsewhere; and, if so, when and by whom?

I am informed by the owners that the "Okara" was thoroughly overhauled and repaired in the latter half of the year 1920, the repairs occupying four months and costing £67,500. Her loadline certificate was granted by the Government of India Surveyor for four years, and expires on 26th August, 1924. Since this certificate was granted the vessel has -been periodically docked for examination, and the last docking was on 20th April, 1923, 10 days before she sailed on her last voyage, when the company's marine superintendent and superintending engineer reported that the vessel was in a thoroughly seaworthy condition.

I beg to give notice that I shall raise this question on the Adjournment to-night.

Shipbuilding (Boilermakers' Dispute)

asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of orders and the capital value thereof which have been sent away from the Tyne to foreign and other ports, in consequence of the action of the boiler-makers, since the beginning of the labour dispute connected therewith?

I regret that I am not in a position to give the information asked for. There is no obligation to report cases of this kind to the Board of Trade.

Merchant Ships (Survey)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether there are any Regulations requiring regular survey of British merchant ships plying in Indian and Eastern waters; and, if so, what those Regulations are?

The laws relating to the survey of ships in force in India, the Straits Settlements, and Hong Kong are of the same general character as those in force here. Vessels trading in Indian and Eastern waters are subject to the supervision of the surveyors of the respective Overseas Governments.

International Oil Committee

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade whether all the details of the recent purchase of confiscated oil products by a British company, including the text of the resolutions of the International Oil Committee, have been communicated to the Petroleum Department of the Board of Trade; and whether he will take steps to publish these details?

On a point of Order. May I ask whether the International Oil Committee has anything to do with the Government?

I confess that I do not know what is the International Oil Committee, but I assumed that we had some responsibility.

Statements on this subject have been received from the purchasing company and from one of the firms which feel themselves aggrieved by the transaction. These statements deal with a dispute arising out of a private agreement in which His Majesty's Government cannot intervene, and it is not proposed to publish the statements.

Is it not a fact that the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, in which we own shares as a Government, also purchased cargoes of oil from this same source?

I am sure that the hon. and gallant Gentleman will appreciate that, in answer to a supplementary question, I cannot say, without notice, what has been done by a particular company.

Safeguarding of Industriesact (Fabric Gloves)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the statement made by Mr. Leslie Pinkham, of the National Glove Company, Limited, to the effect that the present position in the fabric glove trade is probably worse than has ever been experienced before, whether he is aware that it was on the application of this gentleman, with others, that the duty under Part II of the Safeguarding of Industries Act was imposed on imported fabric gloves; and whether, in view of the present situation, he will take steps to have the duty abolished?

I have seen the statement referred to. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the third, in the negative.

Russia

British Trade

asked the President of the Board of Trade the amount of export and import trade, between this country and Russia for the first three months of this year compared to the first three months of 1922?

The declared values of the imports into and exports from the United Kingdom, consigned from and to Russia, registered during the three months ended 31st March in each of the years 1922 and 1923 are given in the April issue of the "Monthly Trade Accounts," and are as follow:

Is it not the case that the figures have already been published for the first four months of this year, and, if so, what is the necessity of asking a question about the first three months?

British Trawlers (Arrest)

( by Private Notice )asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any further information with regard to the Hull trawlers "James Johnson" and "Lord Astor "; and whether they have, in fact, been released?

On the 11th May the British Agent at Moscow telegraphed that the Soviet Supreme Court had decided to release the "James Johnson" on payment of a fine of 500 gold roubles. The Soviet Note handed to Mr. Hodgson on the 12th May states that all British trawlers, including the "Lord Astor," can be considered free. His Majesty's Government have at present no further information on this subject.

May I ask if the hon. Member can tell us what happened to Dick Smith and Joe Beckett?

All the information which I have I have just given. I have not all the particulars, and am awaiting a further reply.

What was the decision of the Court requiring the payment of this penalty of 500 gold roubles?

British Exports

( by Private Notice ) asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the present strained relations with the Soviet Government and in order to protect British nationals, he will suspend the export of coal and other materials to Russia and also issue directions with regard to existing contracts?

I cannot see my way to adopt my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion.

Is there not a danger of the same situation arising as happened in 1914, when the Germans stole our cargoes—

S.S. "Strandhill."

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has any information as to when the steamship of 1,621 tons called "Lincoln Land," which had her name changed in Glasgow Harbour to "Strandhill," and sailed on 21st March to Bermuda with a cargo of 6,692 gallons of British plain spirit, arrived at the Bermudas and had her cargo discharged?

I am informed that the s.s. "Strandhill" has not yet arrived in Bermuda.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that this is a gross case of illicit traffic in a commodity which a friendly Power desires to prevent being imported?

The ship, I think, did sail from Glasgow. If the hon. Member is going to raise the question put in as supplementary, he should give notice of it.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he is aware that M. M'Allister, able seaman, has made a complaint to the mercantile marine office at Glasgow in connection with the treatment he received on the steamship "Strand-hill "; that this vessel was conveying alcoholic liquor to the United States, that the vessel was unseaworthy, and that it is impossible to find out who the owners of the vessel are; and whether he can take steps to protect seamen who are asked to engage on similar vessels?

Complaints have been made by four seamen belonging to the s.s. "Strandhill" of the treatment they received on board, and these complaints are being investigated. The vessel cleared for Hamilton, Bermuda, with alcohol, on 21st March. She -was inspected by a Board of Trade surveyor shortly before sailing, and was then in a seaworthy condition. The vessel is registered as a British ship, and the names of the owner and manager are on record. The necessary steps will be taken to see that the law is complied with on vessels of this class.

Did the right hon. Gentleman not say that the names of the owners are known, and can he give them to hon. Members?

I think that I can. I have not got them with me, but the names are on record in the ordinary way in Lloyd's register.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the trouble in this case is that the men desire to take action against the owners and cannot obtain information as to who these persons are? Is it not the case that they have been advised by officials in the Mercantile Marine Department to take action against the owners and cannot do so?

Not only have they a right to take action against the owners if they desire to do so, but I am having this particular case investigated, and I do not understand that there will be any difficulty in ascertaining the names, because they are put on official record as soon as the ship is registered.

In the case of ships carrying on this trade, are special precautions enforced to safeguard the ship against fire?

British Army

Army of Occupation (Germany)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War what number of officers and other ranks are at present in the British Army of Occupation in Germany; and what has been the total cost of this Army of Occupation since the Armistice?

Royal Army Medical Corps

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that, owing to discontent in the Royal Army Medical Corps, especially among the better qualified officers, many of the best have already resigned and others are prepared to send in their papers; and what steps does he propose to take to avoid such weakening of an essential arm of the Service?

I am aware that an unsettled feeling has been caused in the Army generally by uncertainty as to the future establishment and rates of pay, and by the conditions of service that have prevailed during the period of reconstruction after the War. In the case of medical officers, the attractions of the civil profession have doubtless reinforced these causes. It is hoped that the Army will now be able to return to normal settled conditions, and it is not proposed, at present, to take any special steps in regard to the Royal Army Medical Corps.

Is not some of the discontent probably due to the blocking in promotion? Has not that blocking in promotion been increased a great deal by the retention of officers after pensionable age, and will the blocking cease?

It is difficult to say from what the discontent arises. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman has any special case in mind and will let me know, I will look into it.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that there has been an increasing tendency for the Royal Army Medical Corps to be again boycotted by medical men trained in English and Scottish schools; to what cause does he attribute such action; and what action will he take to meet it?

I am aware that there was a shortage of candidates at the only examination which has been held since 1914 for commissions in the Royal Army Medical Corps. This may have been due to the short notice given, and I am not aware that any boycott exists, or that any special action is necessary. It will, however, be easier to gauge the situation when the next examination, due in August, has been held.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that whereas formerly it was recognised in the pay warrant that officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps, owing to their long and expensive training and their necessarily higher age on joining, could be attracted only by special conditions, including a higher rate of pay and pension than other officers, recent changes in the warrant have tended to abolish this differentiation, and that Royal Army Medical Corps officers have not had sufficient increase in their pay to compensate for the increased cost of living since the War; and what action, if any, does he propose to take to re-establish the essential financial conditions of a sound medical service for the Army?

Officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps still enjoy special conditions as regards pay and retired pay, and I am not aware that the essential financial conditions of a sound medical service for the Army are absent to-day. My hon. and gallant Friend is aware that Army pay generally is about to come under review.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the increase in pensions of majors retired has been only 8 per cent., whereas the increase of pensions of combatant officers has been 40 per cent.?

If the hon. and gallant Gentleman wishes to raise the question of the pensons of majors, I would point out that at present a major of the Royal Army Medical Corps, retired after 20 years' service, gets £396 a year, whereas a combatant major gets only £285, which is very much to the advantage of the Royal Army Medical Corps major.

Is it not a fact that that increase is only 8 per cent., whereas the combatant officer has had his pension increased by 40 per cent.?

That may be, but, still, there is a very considerable preference for the officer of the Royal Army Medical Corps.

Government Departments

War Office (Audit Staff)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office the numbers of the local audit staff forming part of his Department, the sum expended annually in salaries, and the average this makes per head?

The number of persons employed in the local audit offices at home and in certain branches of the War Office itself manned by the same class of civil servants is 402, and the sum expended annually in salaries is £129,423, averaging £321 18s. per head. The number employed in audit offices at home and abroad is 344, and the annual cost is £122,011, averaging per head, £357 6s.

Has the hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the fact that the figures now quoted differ materially from those given in the Debate on the Army Estimates on 22nd March?

Yes, Sir, and I am very glad that my hon. and gallant Friend has drawn my attention to the fact. The figures given during the Debate were not given by the War Office, but by an hon. Member opposite, who gave information which was quite inaccurate.

State Printing Works, Harrow

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the Report of the Auditor-General with regard to the, State Printing Works at Harrow, in which it is stated that a loss of £32,839 has been incurred during nine and a half months' working; and whether this experiment in State trading will now be discontinued?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to the hon. and learned Member for Ealing (Sir H. Nield) on the 28th November last.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that although, as shown in that reply, some profit was subsequently made, the balance is a loss to the State, and does he not think it desirable that steps should be taken to stop this rather costly State experiment in State trading?

It has been stated in this House on several occasions that the whole question of these works is to be reviewed by a Committee in June. The provisional estimates for what has gone on during the last six months show a profit, and not a loss.

Post Office (Stamps Section)

asked the Postmaster-General whether the vacancies now falling due in the male non-clerical staff of the Post Office Stamps Section will, in future, be filled by ex-service men instead of by women?

Certain of the duties now performed by men in the Stamp Section of the Post Office Stores Department have long been regarded as more suitable for women than for men and are being filled by women as vacancies arise on the male staff. The Post Office holds a very high record for the employment of ex-service men.

Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that women are not being employed in such positions because their labour is cheaper than that of men?

I can give that assurance; on such matters as I have mentioned the women are quicker and better than the men.

British Trenches, France

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, during the War, a rent was charged for the use of trenches other than those in the first line for British troops serving in France?

Trenches for purely instructional purposes were sometimes dug on hired land, and rent and compensation for disturbance were naturally paid in such cases when necessary. Otherwise no rent or other charge was paid for any trenches, whether in the front line or elsewhere.

Territorial Army (Artillerytraining)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if the gunnery practice of Territorial artillery will only take place in alternate years: whether this is done for the sake of economy; and, if so, what is the estimated saving that will be effected?

Yes, Sir; the gunnery practice referred to takes place only in alternate years. The main reason for this is not economy in ammunition, but to enable the units concerned to secure the best opportunities for manœuvre and tactical training, which they could not do if they always went to the practice camps. The arrangement also enables us to make the best use of our available range accommodation.

Scotland

Arrest, Glasgow (T. Hitman)

asked the Solicitor-General for Scotland whether the Glasgow Police have arrested T. Hitman, on a charge of alleged sedition, under an Order from the Scottish Office?

The arrest of the individual referred to by the hon. Member on a charge of sedition was made in ordinary course on the instructions of Crown Counsel and not under any order from the Scottish Office.

River Nith (Pollution)

asked the Undersecretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether the growing pollution of the River Nith, in Dumfriesshire, by the collieries near its source has been brought to his notice; and whether he can bring any pressure to bear that will ensure that wanton destruction of the interests of farmers and residents in the vicinity is not permitted to continue?

I am aware that the River Nith has been polluted by the effluents from collieries for some years past, but have no information that the pollution from these sources is growing. I have ascertained that Ayr County Council have investigated the position at New Cumnock and have been assured that the Colliery Company intend to take the best practicable means for preventing the pollution of the river from coal washings and are at present making inquiries in regard to the necessary plant. Dumfries County Council have, following on a recent inspection, called upon the colliery company at Kirkconnel to take the best practicable means of preventing pollution of the river by effluent from their pits. As stated in my reply to the hon. Member on 1st May, Dumfries County Council are in communication with the-other local authorities concerned. The matter is one of considerable difficulty but I am satisfied that all necessary measures are meantime being taken by Dumfries County Council.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that it is not a question of having to set up plant, but simply a question of having a few settling tanks into which to run this material? It settles then and you run off the clear water.

Land Settlement

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether he will see that the Board of Agriculture reconsiders the regulation which prevents ex-soldiers who may have applied for small holdings after 1st March, 1921, having preferential treatment over civilians, always provided that up to a period not exceeding three months before the date of their application they were still in His Majesty's service?

The hon. Member appears to be under a misapprehension. The instruction to which he refers is that in the selection of occupants for small holdings a preference should be given to ex-service men who applied before 1st March, 1921, over ex-service men who applied after that date. All suitable ex-service applicants are entitled to a preference over civilian applicants.

Deer Forests (Sheep and Cattle)

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health if he can indicate what progress has been made, and whether any decision has been reached, in the matter of obtaining information as to stocks of sheep and cattle in deer forests by voluntary returns?

A provision has been inserted in the Agricultural Returns Bill, now in another place, which will enable information as to stocks of sheep and cattle in deer forests to be obtained as part of the general returns provided for by the Bill.

Kintail Deer Forest (Compensationclaims)

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether he is now in a position to state the result of the recent arbitration on the claim by a landlord in Kintail, Ross-shire, in respect of the compulsory substitution of sheep for deer upon his estate during the War; and, if so, what is the amount of the compensation recommended, and the expenses arising from the arbitration?

Two claims for compensation in respect of the occupancy by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland of Kintail Deer Forest under Defence of the Realm Regulation 2M, made respectively by the present and the prveious owner of the land, were referred to arbitration. The claim of the present proprietor has been repelled by the arbiter, and the claimant has been found liable to the Board in the expenses of the arbitration. The claim of the previous proprietor has been sustained to the extent of £3,732 10s., with interest at the rate of 5 per cent. per annum as from 5th May, 1920, till payment, and the Board has been found liable in the expenses of the arbitration. It is not yet possible to state the amount of the expenses arising from the arbitration.

Does the Board intend to appeal against the decision by which we have to pay that sum to the proprietor of a deer forest for allowing us to grow food?

Of the claims, one for £5,600 was reduced to £3,700, and another for £7,500 was completely repelled. I am not in a position yet to say what further action the Board will take, but they have come out with a considerable saving from this arbitration.

What does the country get in return for the £3,700? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer ! "]

The hon. and gallant Member had better put that question on the Paper. Perhaps he wants to know how many potatoes were grown on this land.

Sheep Scab, Skye

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether he is aware that an Order for the double dipping of all sheep in the Island of Skye is in force; that the outbreak of sheep scab has only occurred in the extreme north of Skye; and that there is no danger to sheep in the south and west of the island owing to the natural segregations due to the deep indentation of the sea lochs into the land; and whether he will authorise a cancellation of the instructions already given except in so far as they apply to the farms and grazings contiguous to the farms or grazings on which the outbreak took place, in view of the great trouble and expense caused by the present Order?

I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture. Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend is aware that an Order requiring the double dipping of sheep is in force in the Island of Skye and that it is the case that the southern part of Skye is free from scab. The possibility of contracting the area subject to restrictions has been carefully considered recently, but it has been decided, after consultation with the local authority, that there would be great difficulties in making a definite line of demarcation in the island. In the absence of a boundary which can be efficiently guarded at all times, my right hon. Friend is afraid that he cannot see his way to release from restrictions the southern portion of the island.

Local Rating (Deduction Claims)

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health if he is aware of the budgetary difficulties in which parish councils in Scotland are frequently placed as a result of claims for deduction on local rating being made under Section 37 of the Poor Law Act of 1845 subsequent to making up of the annual budget; and if he proposes legislation to amend or repeal the said Section of the Act?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on 2nd May to a question on this subject addressed to me by the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham).

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that parish councils are still having considerable difficulty over this matter, and that some of them are unable to meet their own ordinary requirements because of it?

Yes, Sir. I am aware of that, but the matter is one of considerable difficulty, and it is impossible to settle it absolutely off-hand.

Is it not possible for the Government to introduce legislation to deal with a difficulty of this kind? Will not the Scottish Board of Health do something?

It is always impossible to introduce legislation until a just kind of legislation has been thought out, and consideration given to what is necessary.

May I take it that the Board of Health intend to let this sort of thing go on?

No, Sir. The hon. Member will be under a misapprehension if he assumes that from my answer. Obviously this is a difficult matter which must be considered before action is taken upon it.

Are we to understand, then, that the Scottish Board of Health is now considering this important question?

Glasgow-Edinburgh Road Scheme

asked the Undersecretary to the Scottish Board of Health what progress has been made with regard to the proposed Glasgow-Edinburgh road; what is the position of the local authorities concerned; and whether there is any prospect of the scheme being shortly proceeded with?

The survey of the route has been completed by officers of the Department, and the Director-General of Roads held a further conference with representatives of the local authorities concerned on Friday, 4th May. Certain financial and engineering considerations are still under discussion, but my hon. Friend is not without hope that an arrangement may before long be reached for the co-operation of the local authorities with the Ministry of Transport in the construction of this important road.

Housing Grant

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether Scottish, local authorities, whose housing schemes under the Housing, Town Planning, etc. (Scotland) Act, 1919, were pressed forward by the Scottish Board of Health and were afterwards abandoned as a result of the decision of the Government in 1921 to curtail their housing programme, will be allowed to qualify for a share of the grant provided under the 1919 Acts, in respect of the expenses incurred by them in fees to architects and technical advisers and otherwise in connection with such schemes?

Expenditure incurred by local authorities in the preparation of schemes required to be submitted by local authorities in terms of Section 1 of the Housing, Town Planning, etc. (Scotland) Act, 1919, is regarded as capital expenditure, and the loan charges thereon, is so far as not met by the produce of a rate of four-fifths of a penny, will be defrayed by the State.

Crofters (Orkney and Shetland)

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether the Secretary for Scot land is aware of the spreading unrest among crofters in Orkney and Shetland owing to the danger of their losing their crofts on resumption of the holding by a purchaser; whether representations on the subject have been received from the Zet- land County Council; and whether he can now state whether any decision has been reached with regard to the questions involved?

My Noble Friend is aware that there is considerable anxiety among crofters in the counties mentioned on this subject. The reply to the second part of the question is in the affirmative. A decision has not yet been reached on the question whether the matter can be dealt with by legislation this Session.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the same answer was given to me three months ago?

Yes, Sir, but in a matter of difficulty such as this, it is not easy to deal immediately with all the questions arising. The hon. Member himself must realise that it is a very thorny subject which requires consideration from several points of view.

I beg to give notice that, in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the answer, I will raise this matter on the first appropriate opportunity.

Wireless Communication, the Skerries

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether, having regard to the willingness of the Northern Lighthouse Board and of the General Post Office to co-operate in establishing wireless communication between Lerwick and the Whalsay Skerries, and the value of such communication to shipping as well as to the islands, the Secretary for Scotland would be prepared to consider means to meet the cost of its installation?

My Noble Friend is aware that application has been made by the county council to the General Post Office for the installation of a wireless service between the Skerries and Lerwick. He is considering whether any assistance by any of the Departments for which he is responsible can properly be furnished.

Eviction Decrees, Glasgow

asked the Under secretary to the Scottish Board of Health the number of decrees for eviction that have been given at the Glasgow Sheriff Court during the past year; if he is aware that in certain cases decree has been given against persons who are genuinely out of work; and what steps he is prepared to take to protect the homes of those folk?

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the grave disorder that may arise in Glasgow because of people being evicted from their homes, he is prepared to take legislative action to secure these people in their homes during the present period of crisis?

I propose to answer these questions together. The number of decrees of ejection granted in the Glasgow Sheriff Court in the year ended 30th April was 3,079. I am informed that the general rule of practice in the Glasgow Court is that decree of ejection is not granted in any case in which destitution is proved, and that in cases where the defending tenants are unemployed full advantage is taken of the discretion given by Section 5 of the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restrictions) Act, 1920, to refuse decrees except where the Court considers it reasonable to grant the Order craved. I do not think that further legislative protection is required.

Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that in certain cases eviction orders have been granted against persons who are genuinely out of work; that riots have actually taken place in certain parts of Glasgow; and will he answer the last part of the question as to what steps he is taking to defend people who are out of work and against whom orders are given?

I think my answer deals with those points. I am satisfied that the law on this matter is being administered in Glasgow with great sympathy and discretion. If the hon. Member has any particular cases to bring to my notice, I shall be happy to make inquiries.

At the end of Questions

I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House in order to call attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the eviction of 3,000 tenants from their homes in Glasgow and the threatened eviction of many others—

On a point of Order. Is it within the right of an hen. Member to stop further questions upon the matter arising out of the Irish deportation?

—and, further, that those evictions have led to much disorder and suffering, that the continuation of such evictions is likely to cause suffering and intense hardship, and possibly to lead to further disorder.

This is not a Motion which I can submit to the House under Standing Order No. 10. The hon. Member's own Motion shows that it is a continuing question, and not one which has just arisen.

That may be so, but it-does not bring it under Standing Order No. 10. It can be discussed in the ordinary way on the Motion for the Adjournment next Thursday, in so far as it does not involve criticising the action of the Court of Justice.

Are the Rules of the House so rigid that it is impossible to take up a question of this importance, in view of the terrible shortage of house accommodation all over the country?

It is a matter which can well be discussed on Thursday. All that I say is that the Motion submitted to me does not come within Standing Order No. 10.

Am I to understand that families of decent working people in Glasgow are to be thrown out of their homes and rendered homeless and that it is not a matter of urgent public importance for this House to discuss? Am I to understand that the question of people being imprisoned in Russia is more urgent and important than the question of our own folk being flung out of their own homes?

May I submit to you a further consideration on this point of Order? In the notice which the hon. Member has just given there is an allega- tion that great disorder has broken out in Glasgow. Does not this new fact of that disorder make the matter urgent? So long as the evictions took place without any breach of the peace, the hon. Member could draw no attention to the matter, but, in view of the disorder which has occurred and threatened further breaches of the peace, I submit that it is a matter coming within the Standing Order.

I think not. There may be disorder—I do not know—but that does not bring it within the Standing Order.

I want to press this matter. It is a terrible business. If hon. Members knew the people they would think it terrible. May I urge, in view of the fact that these folk include some who fought for your country in the Great War and represent the best type of citizen, and in view of the fact also that certain evictions are to take place tomorrow or the next day, that you allow a discussion of the matter, in order that the House may take some action to-day?

I must apply myself solely to the rule. I have given a decision on that point, and can do no more.

I would like to submit this point. While there has been this continuation, may it not be that there comes a climax to these convictions, that the climax has now been reached, and that therefore the matter is urgent?

Do I understand that it will be in order to raise this matter on the Motion for the Adjournment on Thursday?

It will certainly be in order in so far as it does not criticise the action of the Court of Justice, and I will do my best to secure such an opportunity.

Imported Canadian Cattle

asked the Undersecretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether he will arrange for publication of particulars of the disposal of imported Canadian cattle in the Scottish weekly market report, as is now done by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries in the weekly market report for England and Wales?

The weekly return of market prices issued by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland already includes reports of the sales of Canadian cattle landed at ports in Scotland.

Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman see his way to include all Canadian cattle arriving in the United Kingdom?

In the report issued by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland, Scottish prices are given, and in the report for England, English prices are given.

In the English report, Scottish shipments of cattle are now included, and cannot the hon. and gallant Gentleman see his way to reciprocate by including English shipments in the Scottish report?

Land Court (Revaluationapplications)

asked the Undersecretary to the Scottish Board of Health the number of applications received from small landholders for the revaluation of their buildings and for the fixing of their rents by the Land Court under the new arrangement recently intimated to them?

I am informed that up to the present time 51 holders have formally concurred in applications to the Land Court and that 138 others have informally indicated their desire for revaluation since the arrangement was published.

Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say when these applications will be considered by the Land Court?

Land Court (Annual Report)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will authorise the Scottish Office to print on the customary lines the annual Report of the Scottish Land Court, seeing that it is of such great importance to Scotland?

My Noble Friend considers that a substantial part of the detailed material hitherto printed in the Report referred to can be reproduced in a less expensive form without inconvenience to any parties interested in the Report. He is in communication with the Treasury on the subject, and hopes that an early decision will be reached.

Sheriff Court Fees

asked the Undersecretary to the Scottish Board of Health the amount of additional Sheriff Court fees received in Scotland under the proposals of the Blackburn Report for the years 1920, 1921, and 1922, respectively; whether it was proposed by the Blackburn Report that the additional fees should be allocated towards the "remuneration of the staffs under a rearrangement of the departments concerned; and to what purposes the additional amounts received by way of increases in the Sheriff Court fees during the years indicated have been devoted?

No increase of Sheriff Court fees took place until the financial year 1922–23. The fees received in that year, including the Commissary Office fees, show an increase of about £33,500 over the previous year. While most of this increase may be ascribed to the new scale of fees, some of it appears to be due to increase of business, but accurate statistics of this will not be available for some little time. With regard to the second part of the question, the increased fees which have been put into operation were designed to remedy the situation under which considerable deficiencies had occurred in previous years in the working of the Sheriff Courts owing to the payment of bonus and the fall in the value of money generally, as well as to cover any increase in the cost of the services which might result from the recommendations of the earlier Blackburn Report. A scheme of reorganisation of the Sheriff Court services is at present under discussion, and it is not yet passible to say how the expenditure and receipts will compare after this has been put into force. I may add that the delay which has occurred with regard to this scheme will be taken into account when reorganisation takes place.

Will the hon. and learned Gentleman undertake that the increase in the amount of fees will be applied for the purposes recommended by the Blackburn Committee, namely, towards the salaries of the staffs concerned?

I think the second part of my answer deals with that point.

Local and National Taxation

asked the Prime Minister what steps the Government has taken, or is going to take, to give effect to the Resolution of the House that the present obsolete system of adjusting the burden of local and national taxation should be revised, so that immediate relief may be given to necessitous and other areas?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of EDUCATION
(Lord Eustace Percy) (for the Minister of Health)

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Health cannot at present usefully add anything to the statement which I made on the occasion of the Debate on the Resolution referred to, and to the answer which he gave the hon. Member last Wednesday.

Before the Adjournment of the House for the Recess occur, is it not possible for the Noble Lord to say something with regard to the last part of the question and as to negotiations which have been going on with regard to necessitous areas? Can we have no reply?

When the hon. Member asked a question on that subject last Wednesday the Minister of Health said he would look into it at the earliest possible moment. I am sure my right hon. Friend will do so, but I cannot say it will be before the Recess?

Lausanne Conference

asked the Prime Minister whether any information can be given as to the progress of the negotiations for peace at Lausanne?

I regret that I cannot at present add anything to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. D. G. Somerville) on the 2nd instant.

War Bond Policies

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the amount of the life assurance benefit pay able under the £5 National War Bonds policy issued by the Prudential Assurance Company, Limited, in 1916 and following years, Form No. 787, on death of the insured occurring at the end of each of the periods of two, four, six and 10 years after the policy was taken out, also the amount of the premiums which would have been paid at the end of each of those periods under policies for eight £5 bonds at the expiration of 10 years?

I have been asked to reply. I have communicated with the Prudential Assurance Company, Limited, and as the particulars furnished involve a tabular statement, I would pro pose to circulate the information in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the statement:

I have communicated with the Prudential Assurance Company, Ltd., and the following information has been furnished by that company. The sum assured under the policies in question was for a definite number of £5 War Bonds, and the contract was arranged as an increasing assurance. Therefore the periodical increases in the sum assured were for a certain number of Bonds, fractions of Bonds being impossible. Immediately before each increase in the sum assured the premiums paid exceed the nominal amount of the Bonds assured until the next monthly premium is paid, when the sum assured increases by a certain number of Bonds. For example, after premiums of 8s. a month have been paid for two years the amount paid is £10 8s. and two £5 Bonds are assured, and when one more premium is paid the sum assured increases to four £5 Bonds.

At the end of

Amount paid in Premiums.

Sum Assured

Number of £5 Bonds.

Present Price of Bonds.

£

s.

£

s.

2 years

10

8

2

10

12

2 years and month

10

16

4

21

4

4 years

20

16

4

21

4

4 years and 1 month

21

4

6

31

16

6 years

31

4

6

31

16

6 years and 1 month

31

12

8

42

8

10 years

41

12

8

42

8

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will ascertain, for the information of Members, before the Report stage of the Industrial Assurance Bill in how many cases of lapsed or surrendered 5 per cent. War Bond policies which were issued between 1916 and 1921 did the company issuing those policies pay back 60 per cent. of the premiums paid; what is the amount of the total premiums paid on all such lapsed or surrendered policies; and what is the total sum repaid in these cases?

I have been asked to reply. The Returns made to the Board of Trade under the Assurance Companies Act, 1909, do not give the information asked for by the hon. Member, but I have communicated with the Prudential Assurance Company, Limited, and would propose to circulate the statement received in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the statement:

Owing to the large number of contracts involved in industrial assurance, the books are not kept in a form which enables the detailed information required in the question to be obtained. All War Bond and War Stock policies have a guaranteed surrender value after two years. In the case of War Bond policies the surrender value is a return of all premiums except those paid in respect of the first year. In the case of War Stock policies the surrender value is a percentage of the premiums paid, commencing at 60 per cent. after two years and increasing with the duration of the policy. It is not possible to state the number of cases in which exactly 60 per The complete information asked for is given in the following schedules:

cent, has been paid, but the total amount paid by way of cash surrender value exceeds 60 per cent. of the total premiums paid on the policies surrendered.

Silver Coinage

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the fact that the outer silver veneer in the silver coinage issued by the late Government is in many cases peeling off and leaving a lead like interior exposed to view; and what steps it is proposed to take to withdraw the existing defective silver coinage from circulation and issue fresh coinage of a purer character which will be free from the defects of the recently issued coins?

The defect referred to developed after issue in a few isolated cases out of some 270 million coins struck between April, 1920, and June, 1922. it arose from difficulties in casting the alloy then used, which have now been surmounted by an alteration in the composition.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say where these defective coins can be exchanged for coins that are good?

Is it not also a fact that the outer veneer always peels off the late Government?

Is it not a fact that most people in this country have defective coins in their possession?

House Property (Income Taxassessments)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the anomalies which are arising in connection with the revaluation for purposes of Property Tax and House Duty, he will arrange that an extension be allowed of the period during which appears against alleged overassessment may be lodged with the Income Tax Commissioners, and that a standard basis of assessment be laid down whereby any increases of assessment shall be limited to a percentage above the pre-War value of the actual house or houses of similar accommodation and amenities?

As regards the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the statement which I made last night. With regard to my hon. Friend's suggestion that there should be a standard basis of assessment, I would remind him that the primary object of the reassessment is to secure that persons in receipt of income from land and houses should pay Income Tax by reference to their actual income from that source. The varying conditions governing different classes of property in different localities preclude the possibility of laying down any standard percentage of increase which could be of general application and secure the object in view.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what basis has the reassessment of the Borough of Torquay and district been made, since no personal call or inspection of the properties has been carried out; is he aware that a reassessment of the borough has just been made by competent local people at the instance of the overseers, and their valuation is very much below the figures arrived at by the officials of the Income Tax Department; and will he appoint a Committee to inquire into and report on the whole question of local rating and suspend any further action until that Report has been received and considered?

As regards the first part of the question, I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave my hon. Friend the Member for East Surrey (Mr. Galbraith) on the 3rd May. I am sending him a copy of that reply. As regards the second part, I would point out that outside the Metropolis the rating valuation has never governed the Income Tax assessment which is arrived at upon a different statutory basis, namely, the rent at which a property is let, or is worth to be let, by the year. This legal basis has of course been applied in Torquay as elsewhere. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer to the reply which I gave on the 8th May to my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Mr. Becker). I am sending him a copy of that reply.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that a careful valuation that is made by inspection by men who are really competent and who know the whole conditions is much more likely to be right than that of an arbitrary assessment made by people who have never examined the property?

Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared now to give definite information to the House that he is prepared to appoint a Committee to go into the whole question of local taxation in all its departments?

With regard to the question of the hon. Member for Silver-town (Mr. J. Jones), that is, of course, a very important matter, but I am not prepared at the moment to make a statement. With regard to the first supplementary question, I do not think I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend. The purpose for which the valuation for the State is made is entirely different, and the form of valuation is the ordinary one required for that purpose, and is carried out by valuers who, I think, are fully competent.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the fact that the notices of assessments for Schedule A are served only on occupiers of property and not on the owners, but nevertheless the owners, if they do not appeal within the time limited, are bound by the assessments and are liable to pay Income Tax on the amounts of such assessments; and whether, in view of the fact that the new assessments are in many cases largely in excess of the existing assessments, he will take steps to protect the interests of the owners?

I would refer my hon. and learned Friend to the statement which I made yesterday.

Finance Bill

Inhabited House Duty (Farmhouses)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that farm houses become liable to Inhabited House Duty when the tenant-farmer purchases the holding and becomes owner-occupier; and whether he is prepared to take steps to remedy this anomaly?

My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension in thinking that the tenant farmer is not liable to Inhabited House Duty; all farm houses of the annual value of £20 and upwards are liable to that duty. In the case of owner-occupiers the farm houses are under the law chargeable at the ordinary dwelling-house rates; in the case of the tenant-farmer the lower rates for shops, etc., apply. In the former case, however, the annual value of the farm house is not included in the annual value of the farm for the purposes of the farmer's Income Tax assessment under Schedule B; in the latter case it is included.

Beer Duty (Revenue)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the estimated revenue from the duty on beer and the actual revenue received for the financial years 1921–22 and 1922–23?

Women's Institutes Andvillage Clubs

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the total amount of grants made to the National Federation of Women's Institutes from the Development Fund or other Government sources for the purposes of training voluntary organisers and for the holding of special schools for such organisers; and whether any grants have been made to the Village Clubs Association for similar purposes?

Grants are made from the Development Fund in aid of the general work of the Federation and not specifically for the purposes mentioned in the question. The actual expenditure by the Federation on those purposes, to which among other purposes the Development Fund grants were applicable, during the period October, 1919, to March, 1923, was £121. It is not possible to give the amount spent prior to October, 1919, when the work of this body formed part of the work of the Food Production Department. No grants have been made to the Village Clubs Association for similar purposes. Last year the Commissioners provisionally agreed to recommend a grant to the Association of £72 for training voluntary organisers but the recommendation was postponed pending the consideration of the Association's general application for a grant for the year beginning 1st October, 1922.

Gold Exports (Germany)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of gold exported by the Reichsbank in the last 12 months; and if he will take steps to ensure that all gold belonging to the German Republic either in Germany or deposited abroad is pledged to the Reparation Commission?

I have no information other than that given in the Press as to the transactions of the Reichsbank, which is an independent institution, the assets of which are not the property of the German Government. I am not in a position to take such steps as are indicated in the latter part of the question.

Inter-Allied Debts

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of European Treasury bills held by the Government?

Nearly all the Allied Debt is represented by Treasury Bills. The amount of European sterling Treasury Bills held on 31st March last was £1.741,109,000

Perpetual Pensions

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if be will consider the advisability of commuting the perpetual pensions which are now being paid in respect of distinguished services rendered to the nation more than a century ago?

The Treasury are. always ready to commute perpetual pensions if terms can be arranged which are satisfactory from the standpoint of the taxpayer.

May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman is aware that already, apart from interest, the State has paid £850,000 in respect of battles fought respectively in 1782 and 1805, and does he not think that those services have by this time been amply rewarded?

Stonehenge Aerodrome

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the large number of unused aerodromes in the Southern Command, he will consider the question of pulling down the aerodrome which spoils the charm of Stonehenge?

All the buildings were sold in February, 1922, and the land surrendered to the owners in July. 1922.

Can the hon.. and gallant Gentleman say to what firm these buildings were sold, and what was the price?

I have already said that they were not sold to a firm. but. I think, to a landowner.

I am advised that the land was sold on condition that demolition should take place, but I am equally advised that there is no authority to compel anybody so to demolish the building.

Fatal Mine Flooding,Stafford

asked the Secretary for Mines whether any steps have been taken to find why a. bore was not kept going in front of the men who lost their lives through mine flooding in Stafford?

The reason assigned by the management is that no danger from accumulation of water was apprehended. The Inspectors of Mines are still unable to inspect at the site of the accident, but they will investigate the matter fully as soon as possible.

Does the Secretary for Mines desire the House to accept the statement that the owners or those responsible for the working of these mines had no knowledge of the lodgment of water in the old workings? Does he also want us to accept his own statement that the men in charge were absolutely ignorant of the old mine workings?

I did not say that. What I did say was that until the matter is fully investigated by the Inspector I cannot say anything further.

Is the Secretary of Mines not aware that though the flooded pit was pumped dry, it could give no evidence as to whether any knowledge of water lodgment existed? I put it to him that there was knowledge of water in the workings, and that he is speaking away from the point. Will the Secretary of Mines answer my question?

This is becoming intolerable. If the Secretary of Mines Joes not know what to answer—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order !" and interruption. ]

On a point of Order. May I ask, Sir, with very great respect, whether the House is being treated with that respect to which it is entitled by members of the Government who sit on the Front Bench, and who are either unwilling or incompetent to answer the questions put to them?

Men are being drowned, and we are asking to be satisfied— [ Interruption. ] [An HON. MEMBER: "Is Labour fit to govern? "]

You are fit to do nothing. [ Interruption. ] If it comes to shouting, we can shout you down.

This is a technical question, and it ought not to be put without notice. Supplementary questions of the kind ought to be put on the Paper.

Imperial Wireless Communications

asked the Postmaster-General what is the attitude of the several Dominions and India to the provision of wireless telegraphic communications with this country; whether these Dominions have all decided to make arrangements with private enterprise for the provision of such services; and what steps the Post Office are taking to enable private enterprise to erect corresponding stations in this country for communication with the stations in other parts of the Empire?

The Union Government have entered into a contract with the Marconi Company for the erection of a high-power station in South Africa. As regards a corresponding station in this country, while urging the early provision of such a station, they observe that the question whether it should be provided by the Government station or by private enterprise is one for His Majesty's Government.

In Australia, the Commonewalth Government have become the owners of a majority of the shares in Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia), Limited, and arrangements have been made for the erection through the medium of that company of a station in Australia for communication with this country. The Commonwealth Government have recently telegraphed for particulars of the proposed new Government station in this country.

The Canadian Government have issued licences to the Marconi Company of Canada for the establishment of high-power stations at Montreal and Vancouver; but so far as I am aware they have expressed no views as to the ownership of a corresponding station here.

The policy of the New Zealand Government has not yet been settled, and no decision has yet been taken by the Indian Government in regard to the provision of a high-power station in India.

As regards the last part of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to my answer to the question which he asked on the 12th April. Negotiations are still proceeding.

Has the right hon. Gentleman decided what company he is going to become a director of when he loses his present job?

French High-Power Station(Pondicherry)

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is able to give the approximate date when the French high-power station at Pondicherry is expected to be completed?

I have no information that the erection of such a station has been commenced.

Wireless Service, South America

asked the Postmaster-General whether the high-power wireless station in the Argentine is to be completed by the end of June; if so, whether communications through that station to this country will have to be received by way of either the United States, France, or Germany; and when facilities will be afforded in this country to enable us to communicate with South America direct?

I have no information as to the date of completion of the high-power wireless station which I understand is being erected in the Argentine. The Marconi Company were offered a licence in January, 1919, for the erection of a station in this country for communication with the Argentine, on terms which they accepted the following month. So far as I am aware no steps have been taken by the Company to erect such a station. In the circumstances I presume it is not suggested that the Government is responsible for the absence of facilities for communication with South America direct. There has never been any difficulty as regards permission for the erection of a station for such a purpose.

Questions

Wireless Broadcasting Committee

asked the Postmaster-General if, in view of the fact that the Entertainment Broadcasting Grand Committee, as representing all branches of the entertainment industry, have declined any collaboration in any form with the Broadcasting Committee set up by the Post Office until they are represented on that body, he will re consider his decision on that point?

asked the Postmaster-General if he will state the principle upon which the members of the Broadcasting Committee were selected; why they are limited almost entirely to representatives of the British Broad casting Company, the Radio interests, the Post Office, and the newspapers; and why there is complete elimination of any representation of the entertainment industry, whose co-operation should be vital to the popular success of broad casting?

I would refer them to the answer which I gave on the 14th instant to a question asked by the hon. Member for the Mansfield Division.

asked the Postmaster-General if, in view of the monopoly of supplying news for broadcasting conferred upon four specified news agencies, he will state the conditions he proposes to lay down for fulfilment by other news agencies desirous of being added to the list?

As the question of the broadcasting of news is one of the questions within the purview of the Broadcasting Committee, I think it would be inadvisable for me to make any pronouncement on this subject at present, but I may point out that the terms of the licence do not confer any monopoly upon the agencies referred to.

Why are vested interests in news and no other vested interests protected?

I had not the honour of being Postmaster-General at the time the contract was either drafted, negotiated, or signed. I have to deal with the contract as it appears before me to-day. All I can say is that there is no monopoly reserved to these four bodies.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say which Postmaster-General was really responsible for making this contract?

So far as I can see, that does not quite arise out of the question.

What steps will the Postmaster-General take to prevent the distribution of biased political news by wireless?

The whole question of what is proper to be distributed by the Broadcasting Company is now under the purview of the Committee which I have appointed, and it would be wrong for me to intervene at the moment.

Tube Extension (Finsbury Park)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport for what resason he has declined a request from the town clerk of Tottenham asking that a deputation may be received to present a petition urging him to facilitate the extension of the tube northwards from Finsbury Park; and whether, in view of the fact that the petition has been signed by the chairmen and clerks of five district councils, one board of guardians, 12 Members of Parliament, and 26,000 residents in North London, he will reconsider his decision?

The Tottenham urban district council were informed in a letter of the 4th May, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy, that, having regard to the considerations referred to therein the Minister of Transport as then advised did not see that it would serve any good purpose for him to trouble a deputation to attend for the purpose of presenting the petition in question. My hon. Friend does not know what view the council now take of the matter, but every consideration will be given to any views they may wish to put forward.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the Minister of Transport promised that he would receive a deputation, and informed the Town Clerk that he would do so?

I understand that my hon. and gallant Friend is quite willing to receive the deputation if they are willing to come.

Dependants' Pensions

asked the Minister of Pensions whether, in view of the fact that the Amendment to the Regulations issued in March, 1923, to the effect that a dependency or flat-rate pension could not be awarded unless the first application was lodged prior to the 1st April, 1922, debars the parent of an ex-service man who has died subsequent to that date from receiving a pension and is not in accordance with the terms of the Royal Warrant, he will state under what Article of the Warrant the Regulation was issued?

The decision of the Government which was taken in January of last year to the effect that after 31st March, 1922, pensions to parents should, in accordance with the recommendations of the Select Committee on Pensions, be awarded on a basis of need only, necessitated the issue of an Amending Warrant. It is not the case that the parent of an ex-service man who has died subsequent to the 1st April, 1922, is debarred from receiving pension. Any such parent, if in need, is entitled at any time to claim pension under the terms of the Amending Warrant referred to.

Royal Irish Constabulary (Pensions Fund)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the further information sup plied to him, he can now see his way to wind up the Royal Irish Constabulary Pensions Fund in response to the wishes of the contributors?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. I would refer the hon. Member to the replies which I gave to the question and to the supplementary questions on this subject addressed to me by the hon. and learned Member for York on the 10th instant. I am in communication with my hon. and learned Friend in the matter, and I am not yet in a position to add anything to the replies to which I have already referred.

Housing

Rural Districts

asked the Minister of Health whether, since the Second Reading of the Housing, etc. (No. 2 Bill, he has requested the clerks to rural district councils, as stated by them, to circularise the members of their boards to ascertain the support that is likely to be accorded to the scheme embodied in the Bill; and whether he will be influenced in the future progress of the Bill by the replies received or, if not, what is the reason for an inquiry of this kind at this stage?

My right hon. Friend thinks that the hon. Member must be misinformed, as he has not made any such request to the clerks to rural district councils.

Small Dwellings (Acquisition)

asked the Minister of Health the number of authorities in England and Scotland, respectively, that have taken advantage of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts to assist individuals to acquire their homes; how many houses were acquired in each locality, respectively, when the maximum price allowed to be paid was £400; and how many since the aforesaid figure was increased to £800?

Advances under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts have been made by 61 local authorities in England and Wales. My right hon. Friend has no precise information as to the numbers of houses acquired, but during the period 1899–1919, when the power to make advances was restricted to houses not exceeding £400 in market value, his Department sanctioned loans amounting to a total of £373,500 for the purpose of advances; since August, 1919, loans to the extent of £405,000 have been sanctioned. As regards Scotland, information could only be obtained by inquiry of the several local authorities, but so far as my Noble Friend the Secretary for Scotland is aware, little, if any, action has been taken under these Acts by the local authorities.

National Health Insurance

asked the Minister of Health whether he can state, approximately, how many insured persons have already been repaid sums in respect of health insurance contributions charged to them in error after they have attained the age of 70 and what is, approximately, the total amount so repaid?

Separate account is not kept of the amount repaid in respect of health insurance contributions paid in error for insured persons after they have attained the age of 70. An examination has, however, been made of the records of claims made in England for the past 16 months, from which it is computed that the amount so repaid in that period was £9,300 and the number of insured persons over 70 concerned about 4,350.

Unemployment Insurance Fund

asked the Minister of Labour, whether he will state, approximately, how many persons have already established claims to repayment, after the age of 60 years, of the balances standing to their credit in the Unemployment Insurance Fund, of contribution in excess of benefits; and what is the total sum that has thereupon been paid to such claimants?

. Between the inception of the Unemployment Insurance Scheme and the end of last April, 66,000 claims to repayment of contributions at the age of 60 or over have been admitted, involving a total sum of £278,000. 49,000 claims, involving a total sum of £224,000, have been admitted since the beginning of November, 1920.

House of Commons (Oak Panelling)

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he proposes to continue removing the varnish from the oak panelling in the precincts of the House; and when it is proposed to remove the varnish from the woodwork in the Chamber?

The financial conditions prevent the possibility of giving further consideration to this question at the present time.

Saar Valley Decree

( by Private Notice )asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the strike in the Saar Valley is now at an end; and, since that strike was the pretext for the Provisional Decree of the Governing Commission of the League of Nations, recently objected to in this House, whether His Majesty's Government will make immediate representations both to the Governing Commission and to the League Council with a view to the abrogation of that decree.

With regard to the first part of the question, His Majesty's Government have no official information to the effect that the strike in the Saar is at an end. As regards the second part, I can at present make no statement as to the attitude which His Majesty's Government propose to adopt.

When may we expect a statement in regard to this very important question—before the Adjournment?

I do not know what my hon. and gallant Friend means—a statement about what?

The attitude of the Government was expressed the other day. This question suggests that a new situation has arisen, but I do not know whether that is so or not.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that very stringent decrees have been passed by the Governing Commission, and will he make immediate inquiries into this matter before the House adjourns?

Deportations to Ireland

Bill of Indemnity

Can the Chancellor of the Exchequer now make the statement which he promised yesterday, as to how the Government proposes to deal with the situation created by the decision of the House of Lords?

With reference to the decision in the House of Lords yesterday, the Government propose to give notice to-day of a Bill of Indemnity, which will also clear up some questions which were left in doubt by the judgments in the Court of Appeal. It is obviously important that this Bill should be passed into law at the earliest possible moment, and the Government, therefore, propose to re-assemble the House, after the Whitsuntide Adjournment, on Monday, 28th May, instead of on Tuesday, 29th May, as previously announced, and the first Order that day will be the Second Reading of this Bill. It is hoped that it will be passed through all its stages in this House by Tuesday night.

In regard to further Business which will be taken on the reassembly of Parliament, I hope that we shall be able to proceed on Wednesday with the Agricultural Credits Bill and minor Orders on the Paper.

On Thursday, we shall take Supply, Board of Education Vote.

On Friday, the Second Reading of the Workmen's Compensation (No. 2) Bill.

With regard to the second and third parts of the question asked yesterday, the Home Secretary will answer.

Is the Government really of opinion that two days will be enough for this Bill? [HON. MEMBERS: "One day."] Is it necessary, at this very late time, after arrangements have been made for the vacation, to save one day by bringing us back on the Monday? Would not the Tuesday be early enough for the Government to begin the discussion of this Bill?

I regret the course I have proposed quite as much as any Member of this House, but my hon. Friend's first question provides, in a way, an answer to his second question. He seems to think it possible that the hope which I expressed may not be realised, and, if that be so, it makes it of greater urgency that the Bill should be taken on the Monday.

May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in relation to the Bill of which he has spoken, whether the Bill will be so drawn as to provide for the repeal of the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act so far as Great Britain is concerned, and the cancellation of any Regulations made under it?

I think that perhaps the best thing would be to await the Bill, which I hope to have in the Vote Office, at the latest, by Thursday morning.

Can the Chancellor of the Exchequer tell the House whether the Title of the Bill will be such as to enable provisions of that sort to be inserted in it?

Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I ask what is going to be the fate of the prisoners who are now in Ireland? Are they going to be returned? [An HON. MEMBER: "They are your friends."] Yes, they are my friends, and I am proud of them, too.

On a point of Order. Might I, with great respect, ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer—

I would ask my right hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) to be good enough to put that question to-morrow, when I shall be very glad to answer it.

With regard to the point as to the time to be given to the Bill, are we to understand that merely a hope has been expressed, and not a time fixed; and might I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of the great constitutional questions and questions of policy that will be raised by this Bill, he thinks it advisable to fix any time limit beforehand?

As I have said, I expressed a hope; and when my right hon. Friend has seen the Bill he will then be better able to judge whether it raises questions which he thinks will require a longer period for consideration. At present I cannot say more than I have said.

May I be allowed to put my question again? My question is this: Pending legislation by the Government, in view of the answer given by the President of the Irish Free State, Mr. Cosgrave, that the Government of the Free State were willing to release all the prisoners1 at the invitation of the British Government, if so called upon, are the Government prepared now to order the release of all those prisoners? [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] In order that they may be returned to this country. Why not?

May I ask the Home Secretary what he proposes to do with the deported persons who have made no appeal up to now—whether he proposes to release them at once and to consider compensation for them?

The Court of Appeal has held that there is no power under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Regulations to arrest persons in this country for internment in the Free State. In view of this decision, on which the House of Lords have held there is no appeal, it is clear that it is the duty of His Majesty's Government to request the Government of the Irish Free State to return the prisoners to this country. This request is being made to-day, and, in view of the assurances which the Free State Government has already given, I have no doubt that it will be complied with. The Government are considering the question of proceeding upon a criminal charge against certain of the internees. Subject to such proceedings, they have decided to release the internees on their return to this country.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think it is wise, in view of the mistake that has already been made, further to pursue this question?

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question, namely, whether, in the Bill that is being brought forward to indemnify the Home Secretary and his officers, there will be also included a Clause indemnifying the victims of this outrage by the Home Secretary? [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]

The question of compensation is one on which I cannot give an answer now. It requires further consideration, and I cannot, therefore, say in advance what will be done.

May I ask the Home Secretary, who himself is going to ask this House to indemnify him for illegal action, if it is not his duty to consider sympathetically the victims of his illegal action?

I have already said that the question of compensation will be considered, but I am not in a position to give a reply now.

I think the point about which we should like to be satisfied is, will the Title of the Bill be so wide that all the questions raised by the Home Secretary's action and the decision of the Courts be competent under that Title?

As I said in -reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), I shall be glad to have that question put to-morrow.

If the Chancellor of the Exchequer follows out his plan to have the Bill in the Vote Office to-morrow, will it not then be too late to decide that question?

If I said that, I am afraid I did it in error. It will be there early on Thursday.

Will the deportees be delivered to their relatives in this country at the expense of the Government?

I think I must await the reply from the Free State Government before I give any answer to that question. [ Interruption. ] I am quite prepared to consider it, but I cannot give an answer off-hand as to exactly what will be done.

Did we misunderstand the Home Secretary? Is he in doubt as to whether, when these people come over to this country, he is going to send them home to the place from which he took them at his expense, or ask them to pay their fares? Are we in any doubt?

The only doubt I have is as to who is going to pay their fares. I understand that the Free State Government did pay the fare of Mr. O'Brien when he came over.

Cannot we get a definite reply? Are these people themselves to be asked to pay, or are they going to be taken to the place from which they were originally taken at somebody else's expense?

They will not be asked to pay themselves. But I do not know whether they want to go to the place from which they were taken. Possibly it will answer the hon. Member's question if I say that they will not be asked to pay themselves.

New Writ

Ordered, "That Mr. SPEAKER do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out a new Writ for the electing of a Member to serve in this present Parliament for the County of Northumberland (Berwick-upon-Tweed Division), in the room of Hilton Philipson, esquire, whose election has been declared to be void."— [ Mr. Hilton Young. ]

Bills Presented

Post Office Bill,

"to enable Post Office regulations to be made for the purpose of preventing the evasion of the payment of postage," presented by Sir WILLIAM JOYNSON-HICKS; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday 29th May, and to be printed. [Bill 133.]

Workmen's Compensation (No. 2) Bill,

" to amend The Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906, and the Acts amending that Act, and to amend the Law with respect to employers' liability insurance, the notification of accidents, first aid, and ambulance," presented by Mr. SECRETARY BRIDGEMAN; supported by Mr. Attorney-General and Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson; to be read a Second time upon Monday 28th May, and to be printed. [Bill 134.]

Adoption of Children (No. 2) Bill,

"to make further provision for the adoption of children by suitable persons," presented by Mr. GERALD HURST; supported by Sir John Butcher, Sir Henry Norman, Mrs. Wintringham, Mr. John Murray, Mr. Harney, Mr. Fairbairn, Mr. Lees Smith, and Mr. Mosley; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday, 30th May, and to be printed. [Bill 135.]

Matrimonial Causes (Regulation of Reports)

I beg to move, kind, which requires some explanation to the House, and which, with your indulgence and the indulgence of the House, I will endeavour to compress in the very briefest statement possible. I think it is widely admitted that the evil, with which the Bill I am asking leave to introduce attempts to deal, is a very urgent and a very real one. These reports, detailed as they are now, have a very deteriorating effect on public morals and cause an infinity of harm—I do not think that language can exaggerate the harm that they do—to many readers, especially among those between the ages of 14 and 18. I firmly believe that it is the duty of this House to attempt to deal with them. It was last summer, when one of these cases was prominently before the public, that an eminent diplomat asked me whether it was really necessary in this country that we should publish all these details. For the moment, I endeavoured to defend the practice by using the argument that it was necessary to lay all the cards upon the table and that justice was best administered by no censorship or control. But I felt that I was not convincing him, and afterwards the more I thought about it, the more I felt that I had not convinced myself.

That led me to take up the question last summer, when I asked a question of the then Attorney-General in this House. There is no doubt, so far as my information goes, that no foreign Press in Europe is allowed to publish the details which appear in our own Press. The trouble is that these details are not necessary to the administration of justice; they are even entirely outside it. My correspondence on this subject, which lately has been considerable, is representative of many interests—headmasters, teachers, philanthropic societies, ministers of various denominations, and a traveller from India who said that the weekly British papers sent out there did much harm among our troops in that particular district. There seems to be united evidence from numerous quarters that this evil ought to be dealt with in some way. I am told sometimes that publication of divorce and similar details is a deterrent. In some matters, I believe, publication is a deterrent, but it appears to me, from evidence in recent cases, that it is not so in these circumstances. On the contrary, there are people who seem to glory in being the central figure of a horrible serial story, and, when the Press say that it is necessary to purvey this news to the public because the public demand it, the fact is that acquiescing in the public demand creates a further evil influence throughout the nation. I myself believe, and I have always believed, in the broad principle of the freedom of the Press. But surely there is a difference between the freedom of the Press and the licence of the Press upon which this seems so nearly to impinge.

Let me then take it as admitted that this evil ought to be considered by this House, and that there is general agreement in the country and in the House that some step is necessary. The difficult problem, the very complex problem, then arises as to what is the right step to take. Speaking frankly for myself, I should much have preferred no legislation at all provided that you could get the Press themselves to agree upon a wholesome course of action. I have endeavoured to ascertain the views of various leading authorities in the Press, but one and all tell me that a Press agreement on this matter is quite impossible because of the competition and because of the variety of newspapers, both metropolitan and provincial. If that be so, the only logical conclusion appears to me to be that some legislation is necessary. If we reach that point in the argument we can turn, perhaps, with some advantage to a Debate which occurred in another place on 24th April, started by Lord Balfour of Burleigh, in which several Lord Chancellors, past and present, took part. I have scanned that Debate with great care. Lord Buckmaster went so far as to say that the only remedy in the matter was to publish results and nothing else. That is a very drastic proposal, which I think at present will hardly command the adherence of public opinion, but which, if no more moderate course can be found, I should be prepared to support. But Lord Finlay, another great authority, on the same occasion urged that the law was sufficient as it stood now if only certain test cases were selected and prosecutions were instituted. I cannot believe that is of any use. The difficulty is that the Director of Public Prosecutions does not like to take action unless he is practically sure of a verdict. It is practically impossible to frame out a special sentence and tell the Director of Public Prosecutions, "There, now, prosecute." You cannot find such a sentence. The real truth of the matter is that the whole thing is suggestive and revolting from beginning to end.

In endeavouring to arrive at a remedy I and hon. Members who have consulted with me have drawn two or three drafts on somewhat different lines. The draft I regretted scrapping most was one in which we endeavoured to give discretion to the Judges. I believe that might be a possible line of action. The chief argument in its favour is that it was unanimously recommended by the Royal Commission on Divorce in 1912, but, after consultation with eminent members of the Bar, I find that it is regarded as unworkable, and that the majority of the Judges who would have to administer the law seem to consider it impracticable. If I may apply a well-known proverb to such an eminent body of men as His Majesty's Judges and the leading members of the Bar, it is that you can take a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink, and, therefore, with reluctance, I have scrapped that proposal. The main point is that we ought to get some draft forward for a basis of discussion, and that is what this Bill is attempting to do. The Title is extremely wide, so that if the particular machinery proposed is not adequate, or, in the opinion of the House, should be altered, it can be done in Committee. The width of the title insures that while the general principle is admitted the specific remedies proposed can be, thrashed out and varied in Committee. The Bill in its operative Clauses proposes that it shall not be lawful to publish particulars of any judicial proceedings to which the Act applies other than the following, firstly, the names of the parties, secondly, the grounds on which the proceedings are brought, thirdly, particulars of any argument on any point of law arising in the course of the proceedings, and, fourthly, the finding of the jury (if any) and the judgment of the Court; and the whole of that is covered by a Clause that none of these reports shall include any indecent matter, which is defined. Then come penalties, and, finally, certain exemptions in favour of official law reports and other professional reports. I would appeal to the House, if the general principle of the Bill is approved, and I am allowed to introduce it, that it may get a Second Reading without discussion after 11 o'clock, and may then be referred to the proper place for testing its machinery, and that is the Committee stage. It will there be possible to consider whether other cases than divorce should be included, whether there should be any publication before the end of the trial, or whether there should be a discretion vested in the Judges.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir Evelyn Cecil, Mr. Fisher, Mr. James Henry Thomas, Mr. Clynes, Sir Arthur Steel-Maitland, Major Birchall, Mr. Foot, Lord Apsley, Mr. Hurd, Colonel Alexander, and Mrs. Wintringham.

Matrimonial Causes (Regulation of Reports) Bill,

" to regulate the publication of Reports of certain judicial proceedings in such manner as to prevent injury to public morals," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 136.]

Trade Unionists' Emancipation

I beg to move, The executives are absolutely sheltered by the Act of 1871, and the members of trade unions have no remedy whatever.

Let me give the House an authentic example for which I can vouch, and for which the country owes much to the public spirit of the Vicar of St. Mary's, Preston, who has disclosed the full facts of a very painful case. In 1917 a longtime member of the Amalgamated Society of Carpenters and Joiners, of the name of Dunderdale, was working in the aircraft section of a great engineering works in Preston, employed in skilled work in the making of munitions for France. For political reasons the leaders of the trade union called a strike. This man Dunderdale pleaded, "I have six sons and two sons-in-law serving in the Army and I know my duty to my country," and he and 18 others worked through their piece-work and did their duty by their country. A year or two later this poor man got cancer of the throat. He had subscribed for 25 years to the funds of the union. He claimed benefit by reason of his disablement, and the rascals who were running the union would not pay him a farthing. He died in 1920, dependent simply upon the charity of his friends, his last moments haunted by a bitter sense of injustice. That is what this Act of 1871 does. Do not think that is an isolated case. In Staffordshire the members of a union have to sign a pledge. I will read what it is—

Throughout the industrial North—and I speak for a purely industrial constituency—there is passionate resentment. Just consider what a man is to do when he is faced by these acts of coercion. He has either to obey and be a slave or to undergo what has truly been described as industrial death. The right hon. Gentle man the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) a week or two ago said that Liberalism stood for the championship of the under-dog. We all claim those virtues for our own parties but the real testing place for these pretensions is not the platform but the Division Lobby, and we shall see in a few minutes whether when we give utterance to these splendid claims we are really speaking to an article of faith sincerely designed to warm and cheer the daily life of men and women or whether it is merely the empty bombast of vote-catching politicians. It is significant that the Members whose names will appear on the back of this Bill represent great working-class constituencies and some of them are Liberals. The hon. Member for Heywood (Colonel England) and the hon. Member for South Bradford (Mr. H. H. Spencer) both represent trade unionist constituencies, and they are with us. Indeed, all humane-thinking men must be with us on this matter. [ Interruption. ] I cannot believe that there is any man with a heart who wishes still to tolerate the reign of this Act of 1871, which has proved itself a shield and a buckler for cruelty, intimidation and fraud. We on these benches—I think I can speak with assurance for all my hon. Friends—are determined not to rest until these acts of oppression and injustice can no longer be practised with impunity in our land.

I rise to oppose the application for leave to introduce the Bill. In the ordinary course of Parliamentary procedure I would never oppose an application by any hon. Member to enable himself to directly associate himself with the legislation of the country. The machinery of the House is such that large numbers of hon. Members who would like to take a more active part in shaping legislation are deterred; and the 10 Minutes Rule, which was brought into the machinery of the House a good many years ago, had for its purpose the facilitating of procedure by hon. Members who, upon any matter of acute controversy or any matter upon which they felt strongly, desired to bring the subject before the attention of the House. I submit that the 10 Minutes Rule in the present case has been grievously and shamefully abused. [HON. MEMBERS: "No !"] First of all, because the hon. Member possesses no authority for speaking in regard to this matter. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes !" and "No!"]

You know better how to break the law than to keep it. [ Interruption. ]

We are asked, after 52 years, to revoke a very substantial Section of an Act of Parliament, and upon what evidence t Upon the evidence of a case in Preston six years ago. That is the first evidence. I think the hon. Member is a very eminent K.C., and he knows that in many matters in English law you are stopped from taking further action after six years have elapsed. He says, further, that there is a pledge, signed by some people in North Staffordshire, to take the "Daily Herald," and because of that pledge he infers there is some great engine of compulsion not only to compel men to take the "Daily Herald," but to deprive them of their employment, if, forsooth, they break that pledge. A more nonsensical statement was never made. [HON. MEMBEES: "He did not say it !"] The hon. Member did not carry it to that definite length. He did not carry it to the length of a concrete illustration, but he rather held out these imaginary terror^ before those hon. Members who will follow him into the Division Lobby. He carefully refrained from citing a single case as to any such compulsion being exercised. He says that he wants to emancipate the trade unionists. I see him figuring before posterity as another Wilberforce. We poor fellows represent the slaves, and he is to perform the process of emancipating the slaves.

This Bill is purely an irritating and vexatious proposal, and it represents a grievous breach of the 10 Minutes Rule. The hon. Member knows perfectly well

that his Leader, the Prime Minister, says that he is going to call into consultation the trade unionist leaders to see how far this very law can be amended. Only a week or two ago the hon. Member introduced a Measure under the 10 Minutes Rule, which we did not oppose, and now he proceeds grievously to waste the time of the House by dealing in vague generalities which have no definite application to the grave matter that he has submitted to the House, and with not the slightest vestige of authority behind him. The party with which he is associated has for 50 years put forward the plea that, so far as the effective powers of trade unions are concerned, they, the Conservative party, are mainly responsible. That plea has been submitted by many Conservatives with great force, and probably with conviction, and they have obtained a great deal of support from the people of this country on that ground, that they were responsible for giving freedom to trade unions, and were largely responsible for the Acts of 1871 and 1875. Now, on the application of the hon. Member, the House is to give leave to him to introduce a Bill whereby the whole of those pretensions can be overthrown. The lack of authority which characterises the application, the lack of sincerity which characterises it, the complete ignorance of the facts which characterises it, and the utter futility of the application, must be apparent to every hon. Member. The Bill, if it be introduced, cannot go one inch further. I submit that it is a grievous abuse of the forms of the House that such an application should be made, and we on these benches will oppose it in the Division Lobby.

Question put, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to repeal Section 4 (3) ( a ) of the Trade Union Act, 1871."

The House divided: Ayes, 209; Noes, 168.

Division No. 149.]

AYES.

[4.43 p.m.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

Ainsworth, Captain Charles

Barnston, Major Harry

Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

Becker, Harry

Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C H. (Devizes)

Bruford, R.

Apsley, Lord

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Bruton, Sir James

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

Bird, Sir W. B. M. (Chichester)

Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Butcher, Sir John George

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Blundell, F. N.

Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Cadogan, Major Edward

Banks, Mitchell

Brass, Captain W.

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Banner, Sir John S. Harmood-

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Cautley, Henry Strother

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Privett, F. J.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

Raine, W.

Chapman, Sir S.

Hewett, Sir J. P.

Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Hilder, Lieut. Colonel Frank

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Clarry, Reginald George

Hiley, Sir Ernest

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Clayton, G. C.

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Remer, J. R.

Coates, Lt.-Col. Norman

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Rontoul, G. S.

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Hopkins, John W. W.

Reynolds, W. G. W.

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Houfton, John Plowright

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall)

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Robertson-Despencer, Major(Isl'gt'n W)

Cope, Major William

Hudson, Capt. A.

Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Russell, Alexander West- (Tynemouth)

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Jarrett, G. W. S.

Russell, William (Bolton)

Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North)

Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

Shepperson, E. W.

Dawson, Sir Philip

Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

Doyle, N. Grattan

Lorden, John William

Sparkes, H. W.

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Lorlmer, H. D.

Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Lougher, L.

Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

Stanley, Lord

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

M'Connell, Thomas E.

Steel, Major S. Strang

Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

Malone, Major B. P. (Tottenham, S.)

Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Falcon, Captain Michael

Mercer, Colonel H.

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Molloy, Major L. G. S.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Forestier-Walker, L.

Molson. Major John Elsdale

Thorpe, Captain John Henry

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Tubbs, S. W.

Frece, Sir Walter de

Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Furness, G. J.

Murchison, C. K.

Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

Ganzoni, Sir John

Nesbitt, Robert C.

Wells, S. R.

Garland, C. S.

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

Goff, Sir R. Park

Nield, Sir Herbert

Whitla, Sir William

Gould, James C.

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Willey, Arthur

Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

Paget, T. G.

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Parker, Owen (Kettering)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Gretton, Colonel John

Pease, William Edwin

Wise, Frederick

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Halstead, Major D.

Penny, Frederick George

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Yerburgh, R. D. T.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Peto, Basil E.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Harrison, F. C.

Pielou, D. P.

Mr. Gerald Hurst and Lieut.-Colonel Nail.

Harvey, Major S. E.

Pilditch, Sir Philip

NOES.

Adams, D.

Cairns, John

Greenall, T.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Chapple, W. A.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

Charleton, H. C.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

Clarke, Sir E. C.

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Grigg, Sir Edward

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Collie, Sir John

Groves, T.

Attlee, C. R.

Collison, Levl

Grundy, T. W.

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Barnes, A.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Guthrie, Thomas Maule

Batey, Joseph

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Berkeley, Captain Reginald

Dudgeon, Major C. R.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Bonwick, A.

Duffy, T. Gavan

Harbord, Arthur

Bowdler, W. A.

Duncan, C.

Hardie, George D.

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Dunnico, H.

Harney, E. A.

Briant, Frank

Ede, James Chuter

Harris, Percy A.

Broad, F. A.

Edmonds, G.

Hastings, Patrick

Brotherton, J.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Fairbairn, R. R.

Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

Buckle, J.

Foot, Isaac

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Burgess, S.

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

Herriotts, J.

Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

Gosling, Harry

Hill, A.

Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Hinds, John

Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Hirst, G. H.

Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. p. (Preston)

Muir, John W.

Snowden, Philip

Hogge, James Myles

Murnin, H.

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

Spoor, B. G.

Irving, Dan

Nichol, Robert

Stephen, Campbell

John, William (Rhondda, West)

O'Grady, Captain James

Sullivan, J.

Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

Oliver, George Harold

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

Paling, W.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Thornton, M.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Trevelyan, C. P.

Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

Phillipps, Vivian

Turner, Ben

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Wallhead, Richard C.

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M

Potts, John S.

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Kirkwood, D.

Richards, R.

Warne, G. H.

Lansbury, George

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Lawson, John James

Riley, Ben

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Leach, W.

Ritson, J.

Webb, Sidney

Lee, F.

Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

Linfield, F. C.

Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

Weir, L. M.

Lowth, T.

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Westwood, J.

MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

M'Entee, V. L.

Rose, Frank H.

Whiteley, W.

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Royce, William Stapleton

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

March, S.

Saklatvala, S.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

Salter, Dr. A.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford)

Scrymgeour, E.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

Sexton, James

Winfrey, Sir Richard

Maxton, James

Shakespeare, G. H.

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Middleton, G.

Shinwell, Emanuel

Wright, W.

Millar, J. D.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Morel, E. D.

Simpson, J. Hope

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Smith, T. (Pontefract)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES —

Mosley, Oswald

Snell, Harry

Mr. Ammon and Mr. Lunn.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Gerald Hurst, Captain Ainsworth, Lieut. -Commander Astbury, Lieut.-Colonel England, Captain Erskine-Bolst, Major Sir George Hamilton, Mr. Jarrett, Lieut.-Colonel Nail, Mr. Peto, Mr. H. Spencer, Dr. Watts, and Lieut.-Colonel Dalrymple White.

Trade Unionists' Emancipation Bill,

" to repeal section four (3) ( a ) of The Trade Union Act, 1871," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday, 30th May, and to be printed. [Bill 137.]

War Memorials

(Local Authorities' Powers) Bill,

Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee D.

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.

Bill, as amended ( in the Standing Committee ), to be taken into consideration upon Tuesday, 29th May, and to be printed. [Bill 132.]

Selection (Standing Committees)

Standing Committee B

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee B (in respect of the Explosives Bill [ Lords ] and the Forestry (Transfer of Woods) Bill): Mr. William M. Adamson, Major Boyd-Carpenter, Lieut.-Colonel Courthope, Mr. Forestier-Walker, Mr. John, Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson, Sir Murdoch Macdonald, Mr. March, Mr. Frederick Martin, Mr. Hugh Morrison, Sir Robert Sanders, Major Steel, Major Wheler, Mr. Robert Wilson, and Lieut.-Colonel Windsor-Clive.

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Fourteen Members to Standing Committee B (in respect of the Mines (Working Facilities and Support) Bill [ Lords ]): Mr. Ellis Major Fawkes, Mr. Forestier-Walker, Mr. George Hirst, Major Kelley, Lieut.-Colonel Lane-Fox, Mr. Parkinson, Mr. David Reid, Sir Berkeley Sheffield, Mr. Solicitor-General, Sir Robert Thomas, Mr. Walsh, Major Wheler, and Mr. Tom Williams.

Reports to lie upon the Table.

Orders of the Day

Supply

[7TH ALLOTTED DAY.]

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates, 1923–24

Class II

Foreign Office

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £113,707, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, including the News Department."—[NOTE: £90,000 has been voted on account. ]

Russia (British Policy)

I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £100.

I am taking the opportunity of asking the Government what its policy regarding Russia is to be. In some ways, it would have been advantageous if the Minister to-day had opened, because, while it was perfectly true, when this Vote was put down, that the Opposition might quite properly have opened, the receipt of the Russian Note yesterday, I think, necessitates an immediate statement on the part of the Government. The subsequent Debate, in any event, ought to be conducted only after we understand what the Government policy is to be. I believe I am to be followed by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. Therefore, my function is the very modest one of going over some of the points involved, and putting a tentative case, showing why the Government should continue their relations with Russia; and not only continue them, but make them more effective than they have been hitherto. We have had letter-s delivered by Mr. Wsinstein to Mr. Hodgson; we have had a Memorandum from Lord Curzon; and we have now a Note from the Soviet Government. I think it is about time that these debating society antics might stop, and that this method of putting up a case for and against, and the airs and graces of the amateur diplomatists, might give place to a serious consideration of a practical problem by men on both sides who are facing realities.

There is one thing which, I hope, does not animate the Government or hon. Members on the other side of the House. I hope they are not pursuing the old, foolish, and defeated policy of the Coalition Government in opposition to Russia, simply because they do not agree with the political opinions of the party that happens to be in power in Russia. Animated by that, this nation has spent over £100,000,000 in trying to upset the Russian Government. It aided and abetted every kind of revolution, and every kind of attack upon that Government. It showered honours upon people like General Denikin. In the end, nothing but absolute, nothing but complete, nothing but unmitigated failure was the result. Are the Government, after having had a rational rest from the old Coalition policy, going to begin it again? I hope not. It is surely time for this House and for this Government to accept the Russian facts; to accept Russia; to accept the Government—not in the sense that we associate ourselves with it, not in the sense that we make ourselves responsible for one single thing that it does, but accept it as an objective fact, with which they have to come into relation, whether they like it or not—and go on dealing with it exactly as they dealt with the Tsar's Government, with which no decent person could desire to share responsibility, whatever our diplomatic relations with that Government may happen to have been.

It might be, and yet the gulf between that and decency is very wide. In the Curzon Note we have a series of points raised—this, that, and the other. The first observation I make about that Note is this. Let us assume that everything stated in it, right up to the end, right up to the paragraphs where the conclusions begin, is all right. Let us assume propaganda; let us assume ill-treatment of British subjects; let us assume the case against the treatment of trawlers; let us assume the ecclesiastical charges. Let us assume them all. Why have they accumulated in the way they have done? Why have you solved none of them? Why are they reserved, month after month, some of them year after year; and then all brought out, like the stock that an Oxford Street draper brings out, for show, until you come to the conclusion, when they have all been reviewed, that the best, the most decent the most honourable way for us to act is to stop trading with Russia, and increase the economic difficulties of our people?

5.0 P.M

The trouble has been that we have never been able to clear off our arrears of our grievances with Russia, day by day. If we had given diplomatic recognition, if we had had a proper diplomatic Agent in Moscow, if Moscow had a proper diplomatic Agent in London, these questions would have been dealt with day by day, and week by week, and never would have accumulated in the way they undoubtedly have accumulated. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about Kenworthy?"] Hon. Members who desire to interject might, I think, in view of the seriousness of the problem we are discussing, interject with some common sense. What are the points of our Memorandum? First of all, there is the point of propaganda. My position in that is perfectly clear. It has been perfectly clear from the beginning. If there is a case made out against the Moscow Government, that, either by agents or by money, it is aiding and abetting revolution, disturbance, violence, in the East, in India, in Afghanistan, or in Persia, it is wrong, and it is absolutely impossible for us to take no notice if that is what it is doing. I now come to the next point. I have said that if it could be proved that the Moscow Government sends money into this country for agents for the purpose of interfering in the constitutional operations which are ours, and which we support, then that is wrong, and our Government is perfectly entitled to make its protest in the most energetic and most effective way. But we have got to be careful. Hon. Members must not assume that every paragraph, that every charge read in the newspapers, or even in official despatches, is to be accepted without proof. Hon. Members know quite well that, again and again and again, charges have been made and been found, most of them, to be clumsy forgeries. There are the letters purchased at a price by, I believe, the American Government and used against the Moscow Government, which, if true, were so conclusive in their accusations, that nobody would ever defend them. We waited. We said, "If these documents are true, and the statements made in them accurate and substantial, then that condemns the Government whose agents act in that way." But they were proved not to be true.

We have not been able to consider intimately the reply made by Moscow to us. There they repeat the old story of misread telegrams and forgeries. This House cannot afford to take action unless it is absolutely certain that the reasons upon which it bases its action are unassailable. Therefore, the very first thing we have got to do is to ask for production, of these documents. They ought to be published. Not only that, they should not be published in parts, not published by way of description, but published textually. If published, an opportunity should be given for their full examination. We never knew the forgeries of these American documents until they were published textually. Then we found wrong dates, wrong names, and we found it stated that certain particular persons, said to be at certain places were, as a matter of fact, in other places at that time. We must get some chance of examining the documents upon which Lord Curzon has been proceeding. We have also got to be fair. That is a great point. Although it may appear to be weakness, it is the strength that any House of Commons should have. Let us be fair. Suppose we were in the position of the Moscow Government; suppose we had been used as the Russian Delegates were at Lausanne; what would be our feelings? The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and, if I may say so, myself, are not such patient individuals. If he and I had been delegates at the Conference as Russians, and if the Great Powers at that Conference had said to us both, "We are not going to give you a full say in the settlement of such questions as the Straits," I am afraid both of us would have gone away in anything but a Christian frame of mind. We should have done this as well—on the way back we should have turned over in our minds how we were going to show our teeth to the Government or Governments against whom we had our grievances. The most obvious way is to start propaganda. Let us be fair, whatever our views are. We would all be a very united family if we had not been treated in the way the Russian Delegates were treated as to the settlement of the Straits question at Lausanne.

What does it all come to? First of all, the production of the evidence, the publication of the evidence and an examination of the evidence. That is the first thing, and then the examination of the political relationship between Russia and ourselves to see whether there is not some reason why a propaganda has been started against us. These things done, you are then in a position to go to the Moscow Government and say, "There are the facts, there are the proofs. You must stop and we will use our influence to get you to stop." But that means a conference. So far as I have been able to study the White Paper which has just been issued, we are prepared to do what is wanted because we want to settle these things once and for all. There is no use in going on with the exchange of documents written by a man with a bitter mind on the one side, and one with a pompous mind on the other side. That is not the way of solving matters. That is not going to help either Russia or ourselves.

Take the next question, the treatment of British subjects. Again, I put in a plea for fair play, not surrender—nothing is further from my thoughts. But if I am going to put in a bill against Russia I want to be perfectly certain that I am on safe ground. Take the two instances given by Lord Curzon, the cases of Mr. C. F. Davison and Mrs. Stan Harding. Both of these cases took place or happened before the Trade Agreement. The Trade Agreement said this is a preliminary to a general peace agreement, and questions like the execution of Mr. Davison and the imprisonment of Mrs. Stan Harding shall be kept over until the Peace Treaty has been settled, and thence going to be subject to negotiations and agreed settlement. I should like to have these things settled. I regret very much the Government should have been here for so long and not settled it. If the Government's intention was never to implement the Trade Agreement and help to carry out its preliminary provisions, then it would have settled these claims by Mrs. Davison for the death of her husband, and by Mrs. Stan Harding. Take Mrs. Harding's claim. Mrs. Harding herself expresses her claim in this way: "It is not strictly accurate that I am complaining of being imprisoned in Russia. I complain that I was falsely denounced by an American agent acting temporarily as a Soviet informer who has continued to enjoy the protection of the United States." That is Mrs. Harding's complaint. We had better be a little more accurate in our language than Lord Curzon is in his memorandum dealing with the case.

I do not say that in order to push this case aside. I say that in order that our Government may get into the right road to settlement. So far as compensation is concerned, I am glad the Government has again approached that question. I will remind them of it a fortnight hence with reference to the illegal deporting of British subjects. But, again, an immediate, reasonable, strong and plain statement on the part of the Government to the Moscow Government would find, I think, no difficulty at all in the way of settling these questions. If the Government wish, I think they are now able to put the matter on a proper footing if they would use any chance at all as a basis of negotiation.

The third point I want to come to is the point that arises out of the trawlers. I understand the heat of some hon. Members, especially, I think, some of the Members for Hull, who are specially interested in the matter. [An HON. MEMBER: "We are all interested."] I said "specially interested." If it is not an offence, I will include the hon. Member in the specially interested. I am specially interested in it, not exactly as hon. Members behind me, but because I happen to have a rooted interest in a little community that is very much affected by this question. We know that the line fishermen and the net fishermen, wherever these industries are found, say, in the Moray Firth, have for many years taken it into their heads that trawling upon the spawning beds is destroying the supply of fish. If you took the opinion of a Lossiemouth fisherman or a Buckie fisherman, you would find that he would urge every Member of this House to declare the Moray Firth from cape to cape territorial waters, and to arrest everyone who came in with a trawl, and to leave these waters to the line fishermen and the net fishermen.

I am informed that that is exactly the frame of mind of the White Sea fishermen on the Murmansk coast. They hate trawlers, not because they are foreign, just as the Moray fishermen hate trawlers not because they are foreign, but because they are trawlers, because they believe that the trawler breaks up the spawning grounds on which these fishermen depend for their living as line and net fishermen. The consequence is that the Government are always doing their best to extend their claim to territorial authority over these waters. We have an admirably parallel case in Ceylon where, when we took it over from the previous possessors, on account of the desire to retain the right of the native diver to search for pearls, a 25 miles territorial limit was declared. Here again, if the point is approached with calmness, I think that it can be approached with success. In the Spring of 1921 a conference on this subject was held, I believe, under the auspices of the League of Nations. We were represented at that conference by Sir Hubert Llewellyn Smith, and their finding is as follows: whole matter should be settled by conference. There again the Note to-day offers such a settlement as is suggested if the Government will accept it without any further delay.

Then there is a much more difficult question, the question of religious persecution. That touches us all in a very tender part, because if there is anything that characterises the more liberal-minded people of this country—I do not mean liberal in the sense of party politics —it is that religious faith, religious feeling, is sacred against the attacks of the State or of statesmen. We have worshipped God as we wish, and State or no State, decree or no decree, law or no law, we shall continue to pursue the same spiritual independence in our worship. Therefore the least whisper of repression or persecution at once arouses enmity in our hearts. Here, again, I agree that all the facts should be examined. There is, for instance, the claim of the Soviet Government that they are not engaged in religious persecution but only in political punishment. I am not prepared altogether to accept that, because we have always known that these two things have been mixed up, especially in times of revolution.

I will leave the Reformation out of the story. We know that at the time of the French Revolution these stories were told, and these things were done. These are things to which time, in the end, turns a rather blind eye. At the same time that is no reason why those of us, who are contemporaries with the events, should dull our hearts and stifle our spiritual feelings with regard to them. But there is this: A gentleman whom I know, an Englishman, writes to his wife a letter from which, with her consent, I will read a sentence. It was written in Moscow on 1st May, 1923, and he says:

"On Sunday I went also into the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour where, indeed, I had been the previous evening. It was crowded with worshippers, men. women, and again Red Army soldiers, reverent and apparently very different from the picture envisaged by "—

a certain morning paper—

"There is no interference at all with worship, but the Communist party regards the orthodox church as its enemy and jeers at it. Tcherchov, Tolstoy's Secretary, whom I met to-day, who is by no means an admirer of the Soviet, rather approves their attitude towards the Church. He thinks it is a good thing to redicule and destroy the mass of superstition in Russia, and to give an opportunity for real religion to flourish."

I read that because I think that it is important testimony, written by a very intelligent man, a man of very sincere belief, who can take that view, perhaps with sadness of heart, but who can take that view. Hon. Members must not forget that a great recent character in the Russian Church was Rasputin. Hon. Members who know the recent history of the Russian Church know that by the grace of God the best thing that could have happened was its transformation from top to bottom. I have also the testimony of a Quaker—and when I can get a Quaker's testimony on religious questions, I prefer it to any other. This is from Dr. Karl Borders, who was field director of the American Friends' Mission in Russia. In a letter, dated 1st May. he says:

"I am myself a Minister. I was particularly interested in observing religious conditions in Russia. My business took me into at least 100 Russian villages and for brief periods to Moscow and Petrograd. I did not see a single church which was not open and holding services. In some instances the priests even held positions as secretaries of village Soviets. I listened to a packed discussion on religion in our headquarters town, as part of a packed house of 500 peasants. A few Communists, two priests and a Baptist were on the platform, and spoke freely and lengthily under conditions as orderly and restrained as I have seen in any meeting in England or America. The Communists themselves would be the last to deny their quarrel with the Church which has immemorially been allied with the tyranny from which they have liberated themselves at a price.…Isolated cases of the persecution of priests by local authorities under some pretence have undoubtedly taken place since the Revolution. I have heard tales of them from the mouths of priests themselves. But to blazon to the world that a general persecution of religion in Russia is under way is not only ridiculous. It is either a malicious lie or the cheap sensationalism of journalistic imagination, equally disastrous in its effect."

I would ask the hon. Member if he is reading from a private letter addressed to himself, or do I recognise a circular which has been addressed to many Members?

It is from a circular which, I should think, was addressed to every Member of this House.

As coming from Quaker stock—George Cadbury married my father's niece—that writer could not have been a Quaker, because the very essence of the Quaker religion is that there are no ministers, and, whatever that reverend gentleman may be, he is. not a Quaker. I am intimately connected with Quakers and the one distinctive feature of the Quaker faith is that there is no ministry interposing between the God and his people.

I am quoting a letter which has been circulated to Members of this House, and I do it all the more boldly because that has taken place, and hon. Members will have had plenty of opportunity, if they desire, to check any statements which it contains. I have made inquiries about it and have been assured from the proper quarters that this letter, and this man, may be taken as authoritative. In reference to the question about ministers in the Quaker denomination, as the hon. Member knows, the meetings do appoint, every now and then, specialised teachers, and they go about—I happen to know this—and in the rather loose language which even Quakers are in the habit of using to-day those people are sometimes known as ministers. You all have it in front of you. What gain do hon. Members imagine that I can make by quoting a letter as it is in their hands? He is an American Quaker missionary. There is his statement. The question is not what this man's surname or Christian name is, but whether these statements are true. The most disquieting thing of all is the 121st Section of their Criminal Code. Under that section nobody is allowed in the schools to teach religion—a perfectly intolerable thing. The way to try to change that is to try to re-establish in the relations between the European nations, including Russia, some of that kindliness and generosity from which comes greater wisdom than that embodied in Section 121 of the Criminal Code. White Guards have been encouraged outside Russia. The Russians cannot trust their neighbours; they cannot trust us. They are in the middle of a revolution.

Surely the policy of this country should be to adopt such an attitude to Russia as will let the revolutionary Government slip away out of its revolutionary frame of mind into its ordinary constitutional frame of mind, and then go on in its normal and proper way. They can do it. They can prosecute or persecute. I have not the least doubt as to the lamentable failure that is awaiting such a policy. It does not require this Government to refuse to trade with them, it does not require this Parliament to support the Government that refuses to trade with them, and it does not require our Foreign Office to interfere. Our faith does not depend upon these things. It has had its martyrs before to-day—men who have gone to death—and it has come out triumphant over all, and we need not bother so much about it, because what history has written it will write once more, should the same circumstances crop up, as they are apparently cropping up in Russia. These are points. There may be substance in them all; every one of them may be a matter which our Government should consider. Can you imagine anything more futile, more amateurish and mischievous than that there should be bandied about explanations and arguments, first by one controversialist and then by another, all jumbled together in such a way as to raise heat without clarifying intelligence?

The items are of different value. Some of them we will push right through: others are of so little importance that we may make our statement and present our démarche , and if we find there is any unwillingness to pursue it, we are willing to leave it there. But here they are put all on a practical equality, and when the recital is completed, the conclusion is, "Let us stop trading with this country; let us tear up the trade agreement; let our trade and commerce and business men and working classes cut off their noses in order to spite their faces." I would ask this rather important question: When will Governments cease to punish themselves and punish their own working classes in order to show their moral and political indignation against some other foreign country? All the time that the Coalition was in office it was pursuing that policy. Here we are again now. I hope that the Government will give us an assurance that it is going to take the Russian reply into consideration for the purpose of separating point from point, dealing with each point in its appropriate way, but dealing with them all in the spirit that it is prepared to refer them to arbitration or to negotiate them directly. The idea that we should tear up the trade agreement, the idea that because this, that and the other thing has happened, we should say to the Russian Government, "We will not trade with you," is foolish in the extreme.

What is the position so far as that is concerned? Let us put it at the Very lowest. I believe that a representative of the Board of Trade is to reply to-night. I believe that the Board of Trade is to tell us how little business we did. I hope the Board of Trade will not keep its reply until 10.30 to-night. I hope that it will give us an opportunity of offering an answer to the figures that it is to quote. What has happened? The trade agreement has been made for over two years. It is specifically stated in the preliminary paragraph of the agreement that it itself is a preliminary to a peace treaty. For two years this agreement has been in force. It came into operation before Russia recovered from the shocks of war and revolution. In the interval it had to undergo the terrible distresses of the famine of last year. It is marvellous that we should have had any trade with Russia under the circumstances. But already it is £12,000,000 per annum—not exactly a trade to be thrown away in a reckless way as if you could afford to do without it.

There are two things that we have to remember, whether the trade is £12,000,000 or £20,000,000 or £2,000,000. This trade agreement smooths the way for further developments; it keeps the door open. Moreover, the agreement gives us a weapon in relation to other nationalities, and if we were to tear up the agreement now, however small its value for the moment may be, rival nationalites would at once take it as an opportunity for being specially friendly with Russia, arousing more trade hostility against us, and closing the door completely against our national share in its production and its markets. All that we require is a sympathetic diplomacy. Anybody who has followed closely our commercial operation in Moscow will have seen that the present head of our trade delegation is not exactly what would be called a persona grata with the Moscow Government. If we are to have trade, if we are to have an agreement, let us carry it out in a proper way. Let us have representatives there who will be equal in ability and in tact to the representatives who go from other countries from time to time and are stopping trade which naturally would come to us if there were completely sympathetic relations between the two countries. It is said that we would trade in spite of a rupture. We would do nothing of the kind; there is no mistake about that. I have here a letter from a firm that does a great deal of business with Moscow. It is a personal letter written to me. The writer says: Harding? What is to happen in relation to the question whether territorial waters in the White Sea are to be measured within 12 miles or within three miles? [HON. MEMBERS: "The Navy would look after that," and "You would go to war !"]

I ask hon. Members on both sides of the Committee not to interrupt in this way.

My argument is a perfectly sound one. We get a note reciting certain grievances, and at the end of the note a proposal is made. Suppose that the conclusion is put into operation'! Suppose that you tear up the agreement? What happens to the things in which you said that you were so interested that you had to tear up the agreement? The whole proceeding that is suggested is absurd. If the trade agreement be torn up, there is not the least doubt about it, a state of incipient war will be created. I do not say that war will break out, but I do say that a state of incipient war will be created. You will have all the small countries bordering upon Russia engaged in pursuing hostile policies. Every one of these places is arming. You find to-day that the military problem is increasing in its complexity and in its danger because the status of Russia remains still unsettled. Let us unsettle that status still more and the whole problem of the military operations of Europe is changed for the worse. We ought to very seriously consider our responsibilities in that respect before we take this step. Moreover, if we take this step we shall have made an enemy—an implacable enemy, a concealed but a relentless enemy. We shall have roused up the old revolutionary animus, and the Russian Government and the Russian people as a whole will regard us in a hostile frame of mind which will re-act not only on our trade but on our political position as well.

Therefore I hope that, with all its faults, we are going to take this Reply to our. Note as a basis for further negotiation. I hope we are not going to engage in the calamitous policy of tearing up our trade agreement. I hope we are under no delusions about that trade agreement. I hope the Committee knows that the trade agreement has not only got an economic but also a political value and that, if it goes, the change is not merely economic but political as well. I believe this House will do everything it possibly can to bring about relations between this Government and Russia, which will enable both Governments adequately to discuss their grievances and to come to conclusions and settlements about that which is in controversy, and, that being done, that we will go on with our trade; that we will keep our trade agreement; that we will make our Treaty of Peace, and the result will be very much to our own honour, very much to our own enrichment, and very much to the good of Europe as a whole.

The subject which the hon. Gentleman has introduced this evening is one which has excited an immense amount of interest during the last few days. It has excited not only an immense amount of interest, but an immense amount of very wild and, I think, foolish talk. Had it not been for the concluding portion of the hon. Gentleman's speech I intended to say how glad I was that he, at all events, had given no sort of countenance or encouragement to that wild talk. He put a question to me the other day as to whether the policy which the Government were pursuing pointed to a danger of war, and I replied to him that nothing was further from the intention of anyone on either side of the House, that the Government were of the same mind, and that the very idea of suggesting war between two great countries over matters of this sort was too horrible to contemplate. The whole matter appears to me to be taken out of its proper perspective when we talk about war or conflict. I believe, although there has been much discussion and great differences of opinion, that the objects which we all have in this House, on both sides, are really identical. We all want to preserve, so far as we possibly can, the most harmonious relations with all foreign nations, including Russia, and we want, at the same time, of course, to protect and promote our own interests so far as we can. When I say we want to maintain friendly relations with Russia, I should like to take this opportunity of saying that I do not believe the British people have forgotten, or are likely to forget, the great debt which they owe to the Russian people. We do not forget what the Russians were to us in the early part of the War. We do not forget that had it not been for the great and heroic sacrifices which they made at an opportune moment, Paris might have fallen. These things are not to be forgotten, and I hope nothing I may say will be construed into an expression of want of friendliness towards the Russian people.

I said that the matter had been taken out of its proper perspective. I did not follow the argument of the hon. Gentleman in the concluding part of his remarks. He talked about producing, according to the policy which we are pursuing, a state of veiled war, and he drew a picture of the effects which might be created in the neighbouring countries to Russia if this agreement were brought to an end. He talked about the terrible results which would follow from the tearing up of this agreement by us. We are not proposing to tear up this agreement. On the contrary, the object which we have in view, and which has been put forward in this Note, is not to tear up the agreement, but to see that it is observed. Do let us bear in mind that the agreement itself has a provision for its own cancellation if it is not carried out. It is really only a question such as constantly comes up in our Courts, in municipal law, as to whether or not a contract should be determined because one of the parties is not observing its terms. That is the sole question with which we are concerned at the present moment—whether or not, in the circumstances which have now arisen, this agreement is one we can continue to carry out, if the other party to it persists in violating it as has been done in the past. I suppose we all realise that in the relations subsisting between nations there is no more fruitful cause of friction than economic differences and commercial relations. That is a difficulty which has always been present. It is bad enough, even as between countries whose economic principles are, at all events, based upon the same premises. It becomes, of course, infinitely worse when the economic principles of the different nations, so far from being identical in fundamentals, are really irreconcilable in principle. This trade agreement was an attempt by the late Government to get over this particular difficulty. The hon. Gentleman at the outset of his speech, using some rather sarcastic words, I think, about the Coalition Government, said he hoped we were not pursuing the same policy as that Government. I think he said "he hoped we were not following the old Coalition policy simply because we did not agree with the politics of the Soviet Government." I think, if we are open to reproach at all, and probably we may be reproached from below the Gangway later on, it is because we are not following the Coalition policy. The greater part of the speech of the hon. Gentleman was directed to prove, if anything, that we ought to continue the Coalition policy, because this trade agreement is the outcome of the Coalition.

I am not going, myself, to deal with that part of the hon. Gentleman's speech —at all events with any fulness—in which he spoke of the results that would accrue to our trade and employment if this trade agreement came to an end, because, as the hon. Gentleman rightly anticipated, my hight hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade will speak upon that aspect of the question, and, I have no doubt, he will deal fully with the points made by the hon. Gentleman. Perhaps I may be allowed to say this much, speaking quite generally. I have attempted to make inquiries from the same sort of business people as those whom the hon. Gentleman quoted just now, and, although it is quite true that there are, as one would expect, differences of opinion and some people who hold the views expressed in the letter which he has just read to the Committee, I find that the great predominating mass of instructed, expert, business opinion strongly holds that supposing this agreement came to an end, it would not have any harmful effects upon our trade and employment. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who are they? "] [An HON. MEMBER: "They are not cloth people nor machine people either."] I said it was a common opinion, and I will tell hon. Gentlemen opposite one authority for the statement. I do not say it is a great business authority, but I am able to quote the authority of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes). The right hon. Gentleman last week published a most instructive article, which appeared in a great number of newspapers throughout the country. I am going to quote from the "Financial Times" and I should like to congratulate that very distinctly capitalist newspaper upon having secured so very distin- guished a contributor. This is what the right hon. Gentleman wrote:

It is not merely the great authority of the right hon. Gentleman himself—

The hon. and gallant Gentleman will doubtless look out for an opportunity of addressing the Committee later on. What I want to point out to the Committee is, that it is not merely the authority of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting himself, but he says that this is "admittedly" so, and I understand he is the Deputy Leader of the Labour party. Therefore, even if, as I gather from some of the cheers that were directed across the Floor of the House just now, he is wrong in saying that that is admittedly so, I must conclude that he has some support from his own side.

I do not object to the hon. Member quoting from that article. What I rise to say is that if the article be read fully, it will be seen that it is an article sustained, so far as I could make it, in favour of more complete diplomatic relations with Russia.

It is a longish article, but I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I have every intention of quoting a good deal more of it, because it is a most excellent article, and I quite agree that the purpose of the right hon. Gentleman may have been to argue in favour of fuller relations; but that surely does not affect the fact which I have quoted, that in his judgment the presence of our representative in Moscow, his influence on trade, is not only nil, but admittedly nil. Then the right hon. Gentleman goes on:

"In face of recent events, will this country continue to recognise through one Department of State the country we refuse to see through another? "

I quite agree that that sentence, though a little obscure, from the point of view of the right hon. Gentleman may be intended to point towards fuller diplomatic relations, but at all events it has this obvious meaning, that he is pointing out the absurdity of having a trade representative in Moscow while we have not got full diplomatic relations, especially in view of the fact that, so far as trade is concerned, he has no influence whatever.

Supposing that the Soviet Government refuse to carry out this agreement—they have refused so far —or suppose they refuse to give redress for its violation, its denunciation, if it be denounced, not by us but by their action, will have, according to the right hon. Gentleman, entirely confirmed by what I hear from business circles, no effect whatever on our trade, but what I want to lay stress upon is this, that, whatever the effect will be—I leave that to my right hon. Friend to go into more fully—Russia has never observed the Agreement. There was considerable misgiving, at the time that the Agreement was entered into, on this question of propaganda, because the Agreement was signed on 16th March, 1921, and as early as 22nd March of that year an hon. Member of the House asked the Prime Minister:

"Whether, in view of the publication by the Government of facts relating to the scope and purpose of Bolshevik propaganda in Afghanistan and India, he will consider the desirability of suspending the putting into operation of the Trade Agreement? "

The question was answered by the then Leader of the House, the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain), who said:

"Under the Preamble to the Trade Agreement, the Soviet Government expressly undertakes to refrain from propaganda against British interests in India and Afghanistan, and under Clause 13 of the Agreement, all infringement of this condition entitles His Majesty's Government to determine the Agreement if any default be not remedied. The letter handed to M. Krassin states the action required to be taken by the Soviet Government as an essential corollary of the Trade Agreement."

Another question was put to the Leader of the House, who was asked whether the Government were satisfied that the propaganda had in fact ceased when they signed the Agreement, and it is clear from the answer that the Government were not satisfied that it had ceased, because the right hon. Gentleman replied:

"We were satisfied that the Soviet Government pledged itself to cease propaganda."

Then there were a number of other questions put by other hon. Members, and finally there was the following question:

"May we take it as certain that the Agreement will be cancelled if proof be forthcoming that they have in any way broken their promise with regard to propaganda?"

The reply was:

" It was an essential condition of the signing of the Agreement that any hostile action, if any had been taken, should cease."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd March, 1921; cols. 2335–6–7, Vol. 139.]

Therefore, the House will observe that from the very first this question of the cessation of propaganda was part and parcel of the Agreement itself. In fact, it was not merely a condition of the Agreement, but it was one of the essential terms. The Agreement had two main objects. One was, if possible, to encourage trade between the two countries, and the other was to bring to an end the propaganda that was going on against us, and yet, as early as September of the same year, it was quite clear that this effect had not been brought about, because a Note of complaint in September of 1921 was sent to the Soviet Government, and on 24th October, a month later, the Prime Minister was asked:

"Is the Government taking any steps to stop this Soviet propaganda in the East? "

Mark the reply of the Prime Minister, this time the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) himself, whom I now see below the Gangway. The Prime Minister replied:

"Certainly. We are taking the most effective steps, in this country and in the East, and we are in communication with the Soviet Government, and a very stern message was sent to them on the subject." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th October, 1921; col. 421, Vol. 147.]

That is to say, that 18 months ago—and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not think that I am quoting that except with full approval—a reply was given saying it was necessary, in consequence of the continued violation of the Agreement, to send to the Soviet Government a very stern message. On 3rd November, only three weeks later, the Prime Minister was asked:

"Whether, in accordance with the statements made by the Government when the economic Treaty in question was signed, he will now take steps to have this Treaty rescinded? "

This was the Prime Minister's reply:

"The reply of the Soviet Government to the British Note of 7th September "—

that, I suppose, was the very stern Note—

"was despatched from Moscow on 27th September. The substance of it has already appeared in the Press. A further Note on the subject, reaffirming the authenticity of the evidence upon which the first British Note was based, is in course of preparation. The course to be followed by His Majesty's Government in regard to the Trade Agreement must depend on the way in which the Soviet Government meet the protests and demands addressed to them." —[OFFICIAL, REPORT, 3rd November, 1921; col. 1917, Vol. 147.]

I want to ask if the hon. Member will tell the House if that British Note, replying and reaffirming, has ever been published.

Yes, I think both have been published. In consequence of that stern action taken by the right hon. Gentleman and the late Government, there was, as is stated in the Note from the present Government which we are now discussing, a certain slackening down of propaganda. The furnaces were damped, but they were never extinguished, and in the present Note the evidence is given, by chapter and verse, of recurrences up to the present moment, of the continuance of them. Tine hon. Gentleman, when dealing with this part of the case, said that he entirely agreed that propaganda carried on by the Soviet Government was wrong and that the Government were entitled—indeed, I think he said it was their duty—to take some strong steps in the matter if it was proved, and he laid great stress upon the fact that he did not regard the matter as proved. He apparently took the view put in the Russian reply, that these evidences might be derived from forged documents, from concocted evidence of one sort or another, and, at all events, in his judgment, they were entirely untrustworthy.

I wish not to be misrepresented in that matter. I do not say that in my judgment they are wrong. I say that they are so open to doubt, in view of what has happened before, that the only way to settle whether they are right or wrong is to transmit them to some sort of authority that will examine them.

At all events, the hon. Gentleman's view is that we are not entitled to rely upon the evidence, which is given chapter and verse in our Note, without producing it, I suppose, to some third party, to some authority—what authority, I do not know—or without giving some further evidence of its trustworthiness.

Let me remind the House of what I have just read in regard to the action of the late Prime Minister and the Government at that time. His experience was exactly the same as our experience; that is to say, they sent to the Soviet Government such evidence as they thought desirable in proof of the complaint of propaganda. The Soviet Government did exactly as they are doing now. They made perfectly general statements as to the untrustworthiness of the evidence, representing it as being patched together from all sorts of documents, partly forged, and so forth. What the late Prime Minister did was to send another Note to Russia, reasserting the authenticity and trustworthiness of the evidence. As regards the actual messages or communications which are quoted in our Note, the great majority of them— I think, as a matter of fact, all but two— are actually derived from wireless messages sent out by the Russian Government themselves, open to all the world, and the only matter where our ingenuity came in was in the matter of de-coding the cipher, but everyone knows, I suppose, that the matter of de-coding a cipher has never frustrated anybody who wanted to get the meaning of a cipher. As regards the rest, I want to emphasise this: It appears in the Note—and I think it is not necessary to remind the House— that the bases of evidence are merely more or less the same as that set out as the bases by the late Government and which is in the possession of the Government. It shows that this propaganda has been persistently carried on. The hon. Gentleman opposite, the Leader of the Labour party, has challenged me on behalf of the Government to produce these messages and to produce proof of their authenticity. What proof does the hon. Gentleman require? You may give proof which will convince a jury, and a court of law, and you may produce proof that will convince an arbitration court, but you cannot produce evidence which will be considered proof to the world at large. I am quite certain that the hon. Gentleman understands that. Anyhow, I am not quite certain what the hon. Gentle man would consider to be proof—

There is no proof at all. What is your proof? [HON. MEMBERS: "Order ! "] Mr. Chairman, we have just heard that the proof is the messages got by wireless. What proof has the hon. Gentleman from the operator who picked up these alleged messages that they were messages from the Russian stations?

I do not think the hon. Member appreciates the point. I do not know whether he is an expert. [An HON. MEMBEE: "Neither are you."] No, I am not, but I go sometimes and get information from those who are. But I want to say this: The idea of producing proof in this case that would be satisfactory to a court of law is out of the question. I will go further and say that there is evidence in possession of the Government which could be given to the House if it would not be given at the same time to the world at large. If it could be so given I should be delighted. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not give it to the world at large?"]

As a matter of fact, under the circumstances I am not going to give the source from which this information comes.

Yes, and if any hon. Member thinks that because I do not produce the sources of our evidence they are untrustworthy I leave him in that state of mind. I do not want to force hon. Members to believe what they do not wish to believe. I, however, re-assert, with a full sense of responsibility—the Government re-assert—the absolute trustworthiness of the evidence for which they could give chapter and verse. I believe the large majority of the House would accept the proof. The hon. Gentleman and other critics have spoken as if this were an act of hostility to the Russian Government. On the contrary, after what I have already told the House I think most people would allow that the British Government has shown extraordinary patience. I am not quite certain from the questions put to me from time to time if we are not far more open to reproach on the ground that we have been apathetic in the pursuit of British interests than that we have been eager in the other direction.

Let me, as did the hon. Gentleman, refer to the cases of injury to British subjects. I really do not quite know what he meant by his reference to the case of Mr. Davison and Mrs. Stan Harding. He said they occurred before the trade agreement was signed, and it had been hoped when the trade agreement was arrived at that our relations would be very much improved, and then that all these claims would be treated in a reasonable manner and compensation given. Surely, the hon. Gentleman does not mean to imply, as he seemed to me to imply, the very serious charge against the right hon. Gentleman the late Prime Minister and his Government that when they entered into that trade agreement that they, by doing so, gave the go-by to all these outstanding claims which British subjects had against the Soviet Government, and relegated them to some distant time for settlement? He referred to the position in the trade agreement for a future treaty, and a clearing up of matters. If the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members would look at the declaration or the recognition of claims, signed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Central Division of Glasgow (Mr. Bonar Law) and M. Krassin, attached to this agreement, they would see that the claims which were to be decided under some future general peace treaty were exclusively claims relating to property and the rights of property. Then it goes on to recognise the principle of paying compensation to the private persons. It has always been, I am told—I cannot say of myself—the opinion of the late Government, it has been, and is, the legal opinion of the Foreign Office at the present moment, that it never was the intention that claims such as that of Mrs. Davison, the poor widow, whose husband was murdered—

And Mrs. Stan Harding should be set aside or dropped. Take the case of Mrs. Stan Harding. That is a case which has created an immense amount of interest in this House. A deputation came to me not very long ago and included hon. Members from the other side of the House. Have they not been pressing the Government to find time to do something to reassert and make good the claim of this unfortunate lady? Yet now that the Government takes the only step they can—short of going to war, which no one wants—the Government are taking the only firm step they can to reassert this lady's claim, are those hon. Members who are never tired of asking questions and who have put pressure both upon the late and the present Government and have come on deputations, are they now going to protest and to vote against the Government when they have taken the only step possible under the circumstances? Here, again, we are only dealing with two cases—bad cases taken out of a great number. I am not going now to show the utter absurdity of the reply of the Russian Government in regard to the case of Mr. Davison, because it has all been published in a White Paper. We saw there the utterly untenable pleas put in, and the endeavour to bring in counter-claims which had absolutely nothing whatever to do with the matter. All this has been set forth in the White Paper, together with Major Teague Jones's statement which will be found there. Hon. Members may be prepared to accept the statement of a British officer as to these claims made by the Russian Government to set against the murder of this unfortunate Davison—

In addition to these two cases, there are no less than 116 cases of British subjects who have been wrongfully imprisoned in Russia for terms of imprisonment varying from a, few days in some cases to two or three weeks in others and in several cases to years. Here is one case of a lady who during eight months was in 29 different prisons, and another, that of a man, who was in 17. There are several cases of death in prison, and some other cases of people who died subsequently on account of prison privations. There is one case of a prisoner being so upset by the treatment that he had to be removed to a lunatic asylum. Then there were the revolting conditions under which these people were imprisoned. Following their release from prison, several of the claimants whose claims are in the hands of the Government have suffered from typhus or typhoid or other diseases, the result of their imprisonment. These are the sort of claims which the Soviet Government have absolutely refused, I do not say to recognise, but have refused to do anything whatever to meet. They were pressed by the stern Note of the right hon. Gentleman the late Prime Minister, and later again by the rather sterner Note they have received from the present Government. It remains to be seen what will happen in regard to these numerous claims for injury and ill-treatment, inflicted without the smallest reason on British subjects, for which no compensation has yet been offered.

Let me take the next part of the case to which the hon. Gentleman referred, that of the trawlers. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman who, if I may say so, seemed to me to put aside the claims of the unfortunate fishermen in the trawlers, I do not know what he thinks the Government ought to do! I should like to imagine what he would do if he were at the head of a Government on this side of the House. A considerable number of workmen are involved in this matter. I do not know that they should, of necessity, have more consideration than any other class, but sometimes one is lead to suppose from speeches on the other side, at all events, that that should be so. These vessels are not great liners belonging to great British companies. They are small vessels and these men have been pursuing their livelihood, as they are entitled to do, upon the high seas. They are entitled to look to their Government for protection, to look to their Government to put forward claims for compensation if their rights are wrongfully invaded by other Governments or people. What would hon. Members opposite have us do? At a matter of fact, the Russian reply to this particular point is more favourable than on any other. It is the one point on which they have offered to give some sort of satisfaction. But how far does it go? On the others there is no satisfaction at all. In this one they do at least say that the vessels and their crews are to go free. Some of them have been subject to duress for a considerable time. Their catch, probably a valuable catch, on that rich fishing ground, was confiscated, and I do not know yet even whether or not their vessels will be restored to them to come home in an undamaged condition. So far as I can gather from the latest information, they are liable to be fined £50. Why? The hon. Gentleman has confused two totally different points. He went into the doctrine of territorial waters with a certain amount of information upon the subject.

It is quite true, and I have never contested it, that the doctrine of territorial waters is one of the matters in international law that has never been absolutely determined for all parts of the world by common and universal acceptance. That is quite true, but subject to claims that are made here and there by other countries—there are a few who claim greater latitude of territorial waters—the three-mile limit is, at all events, a minimum. I do not think there is any nation that has ever contested the rule that three miles is a limit of territorial waters. I should like to read a pronouncement on this subject which I think is of great importance. The United States of America, in the year 1902, made a declaration on this subject which I think really expresses the true doctrine, and it is as follows: War on this point, and it is quite true that it was decided, to clear up the matter, that it should be referred to the next Hague Conference, which was to take place in 1915. But there was an express agreement and undertaking by the Russian Government at that time that, pending the decision of that Court, they would not interfere with our vessels outside the three-mile limit which everybody insisted upon, and the one vessel which they had then arrested outside the three-mile limit was immediately released by the Russian Government on representations having been made by this country.

Article 21 of the Russian Government Code of Prize Law for the guidance of the courts, dating from 1869, lays down that

We have this further judgment in our favour from a quarter usually accepted with very great respect all over the world, namely, the recent judgment of the Supreme Court of the United States. There we have the United States laying down, it is true in a different connection, is their prohibition laws, that their jurisdiction extends only three miles', and cannot extend to any greater extent than that. On all these grounds, that is to say, of propaganda, on restitution, or compensation for injuries to British subjects, and upon the question of the trawlers, it appears to me that the reply of the Russian Note is entirely unsatisfactory. So far as propaganda is concerned, the Russian Note merely makes a general denial, drags in exactly the same sort of wild accusations' as to money sources from which our information is derived, and it does not even repeat the assurances which were given to the late Prime Minister and his colleagues that they would cease this propaganda. They give no sort of assurance that they will abate this propaganda, and yet that is one of the three heads of our Note which is an absolute and distinct breach of our Agreement, although the others are not. The Note does not deal with the trawlers or with imprisonment.

The hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. MacDonald) complained in his speech that in this same Note different matters of complaint have been brought together and presented in one document. The reason for this is surely apparent. What we are complaining of, as we have complained time after time before, is breaches of the Agreement and then, as these causes of complaint against the Russian Government are outstanding, and when we are being pressed to overlook and condone violations of the Agreement itself, surely it is very relevant indeed to consider whether the general conduct of the Russian Government towards this country is such as to encourage us to overlook causes of complaint in another direction.

As I have already said, there is no satisfaction as regards propaganda. As regards the trawlers, while the boats and the men are released, no sort of compensation has been offered. There has not even been any assurance that they will be unmolested in the future. The worst case is that of the trawler arrested outside the three mile limit, a Russian crew being put on board, and then, as we believe, owing to the incompetent navigation of that crew, the vessel was lost with all hands. Is no compensation to be given to the widows and dependants of these men who lost their lives? I can imagine the hon. and gallant Gentleman below the Gangway (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy)—and I feel sorry for him on this subject—must be absolutely torn by conflicting emotions between, on the one hand, his great regard and affection for his Russian friends who lately gave him a very good time, and I do not blame him for that; and on the other hand his tender care for the uncompensated widows, who exercise the franchise in Central Hull***. I can only say that I earnestly hope that the hon. and gallant Gentleman will let the latter of these two sentiments prevail.

I decline to give way. The hon. and gallant Gentleman will have an opportunity of replying.

I am not dealing now with the courtesies of the House, but with the question of order. If an hon. Member is attacked in this way, is it not usual for the hon. Member making the attack to give way quite apart from the courtesies of the House.

That is not a point of Order, and no point of Order arises.

If an hon. Member is attacked personally, is it not usual for the Minister to give way?

Had the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs said anything which I thought he ought not to have said, I should have called him to order.

The hon. Gentleman said that I should have an opportunity of replying, but that is not always certain in view of the much curtailed Debate. I may say that I went to Russia at my own expense. The Under-Secretary has given way to me, and I think I am entitled to make my explanation, and I intend to do so. On the question of my constituents who are affected, I may say that I have been pursuing this question for the last two years, and I have made representations both at the War Office and the Admiralty, and what the hon. Member has said is a cowardly suggestion.

I am very sorry that the hon. and gallant Gentleman has entirely misunderstood what I said. I had not the slightest intention of making any attack upon him, and if I have said anything offensive to him I readily withdraw it. The most I intended to do was to direct a little friendly chaff to the hon. and gallant Member.

Hon. Members who have spoken on this subject seem to have taken this matter utterly out of its true perspective. I agree that it is a very important matter, but when incidents of this kind are spoken of as something which is going to lead to war, does the House recollect that quite within recent times we have actually broken off diplomatic relations with quite a number of different States, without anybody ever suggesting that there was going to be any conflict or war. We broke off negotiations with Venezuela, with Serbia, with Moscow, and with Greece. The hon. Gentleman opposite spoke as if our attitude on this question arose out of some dislike of the political complexion of Russia.

It is quite true that most of those who sit on this side of the House do not like the political complexion of the Russian Government, but it is a very different thing to say, because of that dislike, that we should take the strong step of interrupting either diplomatic or trade connections, because that has really nothing whatever to do with it. It is purely a question, as I have endeavoured to point out, of keeping to the terms of the Agreement and seeing that our rights are observed. I must say something about the hon. Gentleman's remarks on the subject of religious persecution. I very greatly admired the views which he expressed, and the extremely moderate and instructive way in which he referred to the subject, but let the House remember how this question comes into OUT Note. We are making no demand, and have made no demand, upon the Russian Government Some might, perhaps, think that we ought to do so, but we have made no demand in regard to their policy, such as it is, in regard to religion. But were we wrong to make an appeal for mercy for the life of the Archbishop who was murdered the other day?

You are always right in such an appeal, whether it is for an Archbishop or for a member of the working classes.

I was endeavouring to point out that all that arises here on the question of religion comes from our appeal for mercy for the murdered Archbishop?

Why murdered? Was not he tried by their court? You are only using provocative language for which there is no need.

It was the Labour party who first pressed me—very much to their honour, if I may say so—it was the Labour party in this House who first pressed me, as representing the Government of this country, to do everything that we possibly could to save the life of this Archbishop. We did so, and I remember that the hon. Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon) pressed me very hard in a supplementary question, after I had told him that we had done all that we thought it was possible to do. The hon. Member put a supplementary question asking me whether it was not still possible to send a telegram which might bring home to the Soviet Government the horror of this country, and, indeed, of all the civilised world, of what was being perpetrated; and it was, bye-the-bye, on that very same occasion that the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) made the most valuable suggestion that we might seize the hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. Newbold) as a hostage for the life of the unfortunate Archbishop. Let me earnestly press this upon the House, that, in this matter of religious persecution in Russia, we have not been interfering—

We have not. [An HON. MEMBER: "You ought to keep your mouth shut after Belfast ! "]

I think that the Leader of the Labour party, when he made his speech, had a perfectly orderly hearing, and I must ask hon. Members to give the hon. Gentleman the same opportunity to make his reply.

I can assure hon. Members that I am not endeavouring to say anything in the least offensive to them, and I do not mind such good-natured interruptions as have been made up to the present, but I do want to insist that we are not interfering, and we have not interfered, in the matter of religion in Russia. Although, however, we may have no right to interfere to save, say, the life of an archbishop whom we knew was going to be murdered, we, surely, have a right to say that we, at all events, are not going out of our way at this particular moment to show favour to them, to condone and overlook offences or injuries which we think we have sustained at their hands. We are, surely, entitled to say that what we know of their policy in this respect does not encourage us to do so. An hon. Member, quite fairly, asked me why I spoke of this as murder. I said I would give him an answer, and I will do so, and will, at the same time, fulfil the promise which I made earlier in my observations to give a further quotation from this very valuable article of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes). This is what the right hon. Gentleman says, and I agree with every word of it:

"A week or two ago the whole civilised world was profoundly shocked to read of the murder—it was murder, however carefully it was disguised by legal procedure— of the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Moscow. To-day the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church remains under arrest, due to stand his trial for professing his religious beliefs in a State which professes to be not anti-religious. There is no reason why he, too, should be condemned to death and shot out of hand. The country that permits these things will long delay its admission to membership of the States of Europe."

That is the view of the Deputy Leader of the Labour party. The Leader of the Labour party, in his speech to-day, has strongly pressed us to do this very thing —to give to Russia admission to the membership of the States of Europe. The Deputy Leader, therefore, appears to be entirely at variance with his leader on that matter. The right hon. Gentleman, however, goes further, and this, I think, is really important. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting attributed a reason for the murder of this Archbishop. He says: —

"Why was the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Moscow murdered? If I am asked to give a reason, I reply that it was the effect of the weakened British prestige at the new Lausanne Conference to back up the extreme elements at Angora and encourage them not to come to an agreement. The morality of such a proceeding need hardly be mentioned. The communal folly can hardly be overemphasised. We who have stood up for Russia's rights to settle her own affairs find the ground cut from under our feet by actions of this sort."

It appears to me that that is a very sound opinion to state on this particular matter when we are considering whether we are to go out of our way to recognise or to continue relations with that Government. I may also, I hope without offence, quote another very valuable article by another leader of the Labour party—I mean the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden). He also has been a contributor to the newspapers within the last, few days, and he says: —

"The Soviet Government tries in every possible way to annoy and thwart Great Britain. It may be a natural, but it is a very foolish, policy, and one which is calculated to defeat the desire of the Soviet Government."

Then, after another passage relating to trade, he goes on—

"Russia must stop actions which outrage the most sacred feelings of the world. She may have a right to feel contempt for bourgeois civilisation, but if she wants to-be recognised by bourgeois Governments, she must show some respect for their feelings and their rights."

What it comes to, therefore, is this: Here we have statements by two very prominent leaders of the Labour party, whom, I am quite certain, no hon. Gentle man opposite would wish to repudiate, saying that the policy of this Government—

I dare say some hon. Members may disagree with them. It is quite common to disagree with one's leaders: I have done so myself. At all events, however, they are hon. Gentle men who sit on the Front Bench, and who are, I am sure, looked up to with great respect by all members of the Labour party—

—and I think I am entitled to show that in their opinion this is an outrage on the most sacred feelings of the world.

The hon. Gentleman has done me the honour to quote something which I have written, but perhaps he would read further, and quote the reason that I gave for the Soviet Government's attitude towards the British Government; and perhaps he will do me the further justice to agree that the whole purport of the article was1 in favour of an immediate conference.

I do not deny that; I think it is so; but that does not get over the fact, and I am quite certain that the hon. Gentleman has not the slightest wish to get away from the opinion he has expressed. My only reason for calling him in aid is to show that, in his judgment, the policy of the Soviet Government is an outrage upon the most sacred feelings of the world, and that is not affected, if I may respectfully say so, by the fact, which I do not deny, that the purport of his article was to show that it would be good policy to give them full recognition.

The hon. Gentleman had a good deal to say about the statement that had been made that the persecution of religion In Russia was really an attempt to extirpate religion altogether. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up ! "] I was saying that the hon. Gentleman was attempting to controvert the proposition, which has been widely believed, and for which I think there is much evidence, that the persecution of religion in Russia has gone so far as to be really an attempt to extirpate religion altogether. He has quoted some letters which he has received from individual friends who have been there, saying that the churches are not closed, and that they are frequented. I would not contest that for a moment. The Russians are a very religious people, and I can hardly believe that it would be possible for persecution to go so far as to be able to keep the Russian people from going to the churches unless they were destroyed or absolutely closed. The churches, in point of fact, were closed for a time in Petrograd. I do not know whether they were elsewhere, but there certainly have been attempts of that nature, and the hon. Gentleman himself quoted—

I cannot give the date at this moment. It was some time last August, but I cannot remember the day. I do not, however, attach much importance to that.

I want to show that persecution has not taken the form of closing the churches or preventing the people from going to religious services. The hon. Gentleman has himself quoted—and if I may say so I think with his usual skill he attempted to minimise it or explain it away as not being of very great importance—a Clause in the Criminal Code which makes it absolutely illegal to teach religion of any sort to any child or to any minor in any public school or in any private school.

I thought the hon. Member did minimise it. At any rate, he certainly did not attach as much importance to it as I do. That is a most sinister evidence of the desire on the part of the Soviet Government to persecute individual ecclesiasts under some specious and false pretence that they are engaging in politics when there is no evidence to support it. I take a quotation from the "Pravda" of the 18th March:

There were only two English eye-witnesses of the trial of the Archbishop of Moscow. One of those eye-witnesses has given a vivid account of it, which I earnestly commend to hon. Members, in the current number of the "Spectator." They will there find a horrible picture of the Government Procurator bellowing for blood. I think the hon. Gentleman's parallel was probably quite justified, only it did not really go far enough, because, if the account that I read of this trial is anything approaching the truth, it puts into the shade the worst that was ever done by St. Juste, and it absolutely make the buffooneries and the jeers and the bullying of our Scroggs and Jeffreys absolute models of decency.

All we did was to plead for mercy, and, in return for our plea for mercy, we got these Notes returned to us which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting himself describes as insulting and derogatory. These Notes, insulting and derogatory, were proudly quoted at Angora within 48 hours. They were reproduced in the Press by "Radek" with boastings of the attitude which they were assuming. How would the hon. Gentleman and the Opposition have treated those Notes? An attempt was made to throw some odium on Mr. Hodgson, who has behaved with admirable propriety throughout. In a grudging sort of way we are now told, whatever it may mean, that these Notes may be considered non-existent. Well, we will consider them non-existent. I suppose we may take it, therefore, that they are withdrawn.

How could we have dealt with the whole matter otherwise than we did? Complaint has been launched against us all along the line. We could, I suppose, have made the whole matter a causus belli . That would have been one alternative. That alternative, of course, never entered our imagination for one moment. Then there was the second alternative, that we should immediately accept everything and say nothing about the breach of agreement, the invasion of our rights, the outrages on our fellow countrymen, and the insults to our national representatives. We could have done that. Then we could have done a third thing, namely, to sum up our causes of complaint on all heads and to have said that the limit of our patience had been exhausted. That is what we have done. We have only carried the matter one stage further than the right hon. Gentleman the late Prime Minister. I have already quoted his stern message. We waited 18 months and nothing was done. After all that lapse of time, we sent a sterner note. We are told that it is an ultimatum. Well, in a sense it is an ultimatum, but it is not an ultimatum leading to war. The only sense in which it is an ultimatum is that we say to the Soviet Government, "If you are determined to continue violating this agreement, as you have in the past, if you are not going to give any redress whatever for our causes for complaint, then we must assume you do not want to go on." The hon. Member concluded his speech by inviting us to submit the whole thing to some conference, to meet round the table I suppose, or at any rate to negotiate. We have negotiated until we are sick of negotiating. The Government is not going to be drawn again into negotiation if all these trumped up, foundationless counter claims of one sort and another are going to be put forward without any intention whatever of arriving at a settlement.

I was sorry to see the hon. Gentleman (Mr. MacDonald) imitating less worthy men and enjoying himself by rather a cheap sneer at the expense of the Foreign Seertary. I do not think it is a wise thing to do at this moment if he is really anxious for friendly relations to be re-established. In view of that, I am not sure that he will quite appreciate or welcome what I am going to say. Nevertheless I am going to say it. I understand that M. Krassin has suddenly arrived in London from Russia. I presume he has come in order to avert, if he can, the consequences that have been foreshadowed in our Note. I do not know whether M. Krassin has asked, or intends to ask, to have an interview with the Foreign Secretary; but I can say this —that, if he does, my noble Friend will be quite ready to see him. He will be glad to have a conversation with him. But I do not want to mislead the hon. Member or the House at all as to the purpose of such a conversation. The Foreign Secretary would be glad to see M. Krassin and to go through the whole of our claims with him, showing him, if he can, where he thinks our claims are reasonable and the way in which we complain of their being met. He would invite M. Krassin, having had that conversation, to communicate with- Moscow, if he desires to do so, for instructions, and if it should be—I do not know whether it would be or not—that, in order to make that communication to Moscow and get instructions back, some certain amount of time would be required, the time limit mentioned in our Note would be given a reasonable extension in order to allow that to be done. In case I should create a misunderstanding, I ought to add this. It must not be taken that we mean to be satisfied with anything less than compliance with our demands.

These demands were not put forward hastily, and they were not put forward—may I take this opportunity of saying, in view of some things which have appeared in the Press—without due approval and consideration by the Prime Minister? They were arrived art; by a full Cabinet over which the Prime Minister himself presided. Therefore, the whole policy has his sanction and approval. That is the only step we could possibly take in view of the entirely unsatisfactory nature of the reply on all heads, with one small exception. It is impossible, after laying it down in the Note, after careful and full consideration, that we must insist on those terms, that we should recede from them now. I am very sorry indeed that the hon. Gentleman has thought it necessary to make this question a party question. I do not know why it should be. When British interests are concerned, especially the rights of fishermen and persons who have been put in prison, and especially in view of the propaganda which the hon. Gentleman himself declared was wrong— under those circumstances, although there may be differences of view, I am very sorry that he should have thought it necessary to make it a party question. But if the hon. Member wants to find an issue upon which he will divide himself from us, he could not have chosen one which we are more ready to accept. If you challenge us on this we accept it without hesitation and without dismay, and I can assure the hon. Member that if he goes on and moves his reduction we will put him and his friends into the Division Lobby with the greatest possible pleasure, entirely confident that in doing so we shall be supported not merely by the majority in this House but by all that is best in the country.

I rise to express my satisfaction at the announcement which has just been made. I am very glad the Government have come to the decision they have come to. It is exceedingly wise that this matter should be discussed. No doubt there are many things which have happened in Russia in the course of the last few years which are repellent, which are hideous, which arouse sentiments of righteous anger and resentment in the breast of every decent man, and it is very easy to arouse passions which are by no means confined to one party, to one section, to one creed, or to one faith. Take these incidents which have occurred in the course of the last two or three years. It is difficult to speak of them without using language— in fact it is difficult to use language which would be extravagant in describing them, but that renders it peculiarly incumbent on us to preserve our calm and our restraint. A quarrel between two great peoples who have acted together in the greatest emergency in which nations have ever co-operated, between two nations who have made the greatest sacrifices which any nation ever made in the history of the world—a quarrel between two great peoples, whatever the cause may be, is a calamity which is so great that it is really necessary that we should exercise every caution before we come to any decision at all. Therefore in any words I may use I shall say nothing which will cause the slightest embarrassment to any party that enters into these negotiations. I will forego any criticism which I intended to make upon the documents which have passed between the parties. I would only urge one or two considerations and press them upon the Government with the little experience I have had in dealing with this matter.

The first consideration I would urge is this. We are apt to discuss Russia in the terms of western civilisation. That is a fundamental error. Russia before the revolution was more or less in the condition France was in in the days of Louis XIV. Take all this about religion. We here gave refuge to Protestants who were driven from France. There were horrors there inflicted upon people of our faith. Russia is practically where France was in pre-revolutionary days. Let us bear that in mind. There were horrors during the revolution in France. I will not say they were equal because these things are not questions that you can compare. They were so hideous, so horrible, that they aroused an almost unanimous passion in this land which drove us to 20 years of war. Let us avoid that. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has seen the document sent by the officials of the Orthodox Church in Russia to the Archbishop of Canterbury. It is published to-day, I think, in the "Manchester Guardian." It is assumed that Russia was a land where you had freedom until the Bolshevists came, where everyone was free to worship, where there was no persecution. As a matter of fact men of my own faith were persecuted. The Baptists suffered severely in the old Czarist days. This is what is sent to the Archbishop of Canterbury by the representatives of the Orthodox Church:

Let me put another point to the hon. Gentleman which I want him to bear in mind when he comes to consider this question of propaganda. This propaganda in the East is not altogether Bolshevist. Anyone who has followed the history of the matter knows that up to 1904 Russia was sending large sums out of her Secret Service in order to propaganda the East against British interests. It was thoroughly well known. It was done in Persia, Afghanistan, Baluchistan, Waziristan, and in India. It was well known that there were large sums of money being spent by the old Russian régime in order to create anti-British sentiment in all these countries. What happened? In 1904 you had the Reval meeting. A new understanding was established with Russia. From that moment the propaganda ceased. Is there not a lesson in that, that the essential preliminary to the cessation of propaganda in the East against British interests is to re-establish some sort of understanding? We talk about revolutionist and Czarist Government. The Russian is the thing that matters and there are really no fundamental differences. When you come to meet these people, the differences are not fundamental between your Tzarist and your Bolshevist—I am not talking now about doctrines—the moment they get on to foreign policy. That is exactly what this country discovered in the French Revolution. The French Revolutionaries started with all those great ideals of peace and brotherhood and ended by becoming an aggressive, militarist and Imperialist power. The old France burst through all its bonds, and the same thing will happen here, and it is happening.

Chicherin is not a revolutionary in the ordinary sense of the term. Chicherin is as great an aristocrat as Lord Curzon. Chicherin belongs to exactly the same class. A good many of these men are officials trained under the old system. The men who are operating there, the brains very often, are men of the old régime . Even the police are all men who were trained under the old system, and the Russian is coming out. I knew, I felt, that Bolshevism was something that was evanescent. No country can keep that temperature without perishing, and gradually the Bolshevist will evolve and develop into the Russian Imperialist again. I have not the faintest doubt of it. You can follow it now. He does so in the name of peace, fraternity and brotherhood, and he says, "I am doing it because I love the Persian. It is because I want to be charitable to the Waziris. It is because I have such an affection for the men of Tashkend." It is all done in the name of brotherhood, but it is the same old Russia. We are up against the old Russia I was always afraid of. Do not let us make a mistake and think it is Bolshevism. You are up against something which is much more permanent. The thing that stopped it in 1904 was an understanding, and I beg the Government, now that they have taken this very wise step, to take full advantage of it. Let them have a conversation. They will find Krassin a very intelligent man who is by no means extravagant in his views. They are not very easy people to negotiate with. I will say that at once. My right hon. Friend and I had a good dose of them. This is a serious warning to both parties of what may happen. I really beg the Government to take into account the condition of the world. It is very grave. No one knows that better than those in the Foreign Office. It is very grave, North, South, East and West, and it is not a world to drop matches in. Ultimatum has a nasty sound after 1914. That word produced the greatest catastrophe in human history, and I hope it is not going to be used again. I am glad it has been set on one side. I am glad the hon. Gentleman repudiated the word.

Here you have thousands of miles of frontier from the Baltic down to the Black Sea which is in a very dangerous condition. Poland has its racial quarrel about Galicia. The Galicians are the same race as the Russians. There is the feeling that they are being oppressed by the Poles. That is full of possibilities of grave danger. There is Bessarabia further South and there are the troubles with the little Republics along the Baltic Coast. We have the trouble in Germany over the Ruhr. We are not yet out of our trouble in the Far East. I beg the Government to take counsel and not to add to the troubles of the world, but even to forgo many of their prejudices and righteous wrath, if they will, and to remember that trade is not reviving. I am not so sure of the immediate prospects nor of the remote prospects. I am not at all sure, with all these racial angers fermenting throughout Europe, and all these troubles, what may happen.

If there be a quarrel with Russia, what will happen? The Under-Secretary talked about our having severed diplomatic relations at certain times with Serbia, Venezuela, and Mexico. Those cases are not at all analogous. In Russia you have 120,000,000 of people, touching us at every point, touching Poland, Rumania, and other countries. We have Germany in a condition of resentment. What is the good of talking about Serbia? If you send these trade representatives away, and you cut off communication with Russia, you throw revolution back upon itself, and it will fall back upon its own resources. Does the hon. Member imagine that there are not men in Russia who are prepared to cheer exactly the same sentiments as are cheered by hon. Members on the other side? They are dangerous men. There are men in Russia, I have no doubt, who would rather have had a defiant reply to the British Government. If there is a refusal to negotiate and to make peace, the result will be that these men will be triumphant. That is what happened in France. A revolutionary country armed is a terrible weapon. I ask the Government when they enter this Conference to enter it with full knowledge of what are the dangers, and to see that a real peace is established with Russia.

I am not going to keep the Committee; more than two or three minutes, but I desire at once, in the most emphatic language that I can command, to associate myself with everything that has been said by my right hon. Friend who has just sat down, and, if I can, to reinforce the eloquent appeal which he has made to His Majesty's Government. I feel absolved, and I am very glad that I am, from the task, which I should otherwise have been disposed to undertake, of going into some of the more controversial aspects of the correspondence between the two Governments. Not that I was going to stand here as the apologist of the Soviet Government; far from it. I think their behaviour throughout the whole of these transactions is as reprehensible as it is foolish. I should, however, have taken the liberty of questioning the wisdom—overwhelming as is the case in matters of complaint, some of them of great importance, which this country has against the Soviet Government—of dealing with the matter by cutting off the only cord of living communication, in the shape of the trade deputation, which exists between this country and Russia. I will not go into that, nor will I do more than endorse what has been said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) about the true aspect of this matter of propaganda.

I remember very well when a propaganda more widespread, and I believe more insidious in its character, was carried on by the Czarist Government of Russia throughout all the vulnerable parts, so far as the British Government was concerned, of Central Asia. We put an end to that by the Anglo-Russian Agreement, one of the wisest diplomatic steps this country has ever taken, and for the best part of 10 years nay, more, until the conclusion of the War, we were absolutely free from any apprehension of that kind in regard to our Indian Empire. That has been done before, and it can be done again, and it ought to be done. I earnestly press upon the Undersecretary—whose singularly able speech was listened to by the whole of the Committee with the greatest admiration—to bear in mind these facts. He constantly urged us to view things in their proper perspective. I agree with him that we all of us need to do that.

As anyone who reads the two Notes will realise, there is a dangerous and perhaps inevitable tendency when you are accumulating a case, whether by way of complaint or by way of defence, to, I will not say misstate the size and the relative magnitude of the things involved, but to jumble together points which are of importance with points which only touch the amour proper or, at any rate, are only subordinate points. There is a tendency to put all these things together as of equal significance and to include them in what is, in diplomatic language, known as an ultimatum. That does not seem to me to be the wisest thing to do. I have not, however, risen to discuss that point, but for the purpose of saying that in the excellent speech of the Under-Secretary far the best part was his concluding passage. It was, I believe, an unspeakable relief to the great majority of the Committee, as I am sure it will be to the public outside, that advantage is going to be taken, or may be taken, of the visit of M. Krassin to go over these matters one after another, seriatim , to ascertain their relative proportion and importance, and to examine, as far as may be, any evidence, one way or the other, with a sincere desire, and with any necessary extension of time, to arrive at a common understanding.

It is no good saying that we must not deal with these people because they are red handed and that sort of thing. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs has said, we made exactly the same mistake in connection with the French Revolution. They were regicides, they were athiests, they shut up the churches, they disestablished and disendowed the clergy, which in those days was almost regarded as a capital crime, and we were foolish enough, our Government was foolish enough, to suspend relations with them for years, with the result that misunderstandings multiplied, the gulf that -separated us widened, and Europe was plunged into what was up to that date the most desolating war in history. Do not let us make the same mistake again. I hail with the greatest satisfaction the assurance of the Undersecretary that a way has been found, or may be found, out of an intolerable situation.

I wish to make a few observations in regard to what has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman who has just resumed his seat. He informed the House, and I do not disagree with him, because it is true, that in the days of the old Czarist régime in Russia our Eastern possessions were the focus of Russian intrigue. He added, with equal accuracy, that the Anglo-Russian Agreement of 1904 practically put a stop to these intrigues for a period of 10 years. That is the difference between the situation before the War and the situation now; for whatever the faults of the Czarist régime may have been—and they were many, and, perhaps, they have not been unduly denounced in this House—we do know, because they proved it, that they were capable of keeping faith when they had made an agreement. Here is a trading agreement, concluded between two Governments, with equal sanction and equal precaution, and from start to finish it has been dishonoured by those who set their hands to it in Russia.

There are two observations which I desire to make upon some historical commentaries made by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. He compared the state of civilisation in Russia at the present time with the state of civilisation in France in the days of Louis XIV. If any Russian friends happen to be here this evening, and will be ready to admit that that is so, I think our difficulties would be solved; but the whole trouble is this, that they are 200 or 300 years behind the times, although they profess that the rest of Europe is reactionary, and that they stand in the van of progress and liberty. Which way are we going to have it? If Russia is behind the times, then let hon. Members urge her to follow the example of England; hut if Russia is in the vanguard of liberty and progress, then perhaps there is something to be said for her. It is because we on this side of the House believe that Russia is a true reactionary, and that her policy at the present time is to pull down what 300 years of patient civilisation has built up, that we resent her propaganda among nations which, admittedly, have attained to a higher degree of civilisation.

Reference has been made to the final sentence of the Under-Secretary, whose unique speech we all admired, but it was not the final sentence, but the penultimate sentence which I liked the best, when he said that the policy which he advocated would commend itself to the best elements throughout the country. I am strongly of opinion that it will commend itself to Labour, and I speak as a genuine Labour Member. [ Laughter. ] I knew that that statement would create a certain amount of amusement amongst hon. Members opposite; but when I survey the personnel of the benches opposite I cannot think that my profession disqualifies me from being a Labour Member. I am sent to this House to voice the opinions of labour, and in that respect I am in the position of other hon. Members on this side. I have been sent here by a considerable majority, after a conflict with an able Labour opponent of charming personality, of whose friendship I am proud, simply because Labour in my constituency did not approve of Bolshevism. I can say, what perhaps not all hon. Members can say, that I represent the genuine British working man in my constituency. There are other more cosmopolitan regions within these islands of which it may perhaps be said:

I would point out to the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. Kirkwood) that the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. Banks) is in possession of the Committee. Does the hon. Member for Dumbarton rise to a point of Order.

On a point of Order. I did not catch what the hon. Gentleman said in reference to the Clyde. I am most anxious to follow him correctly, and I did not hear exactly what he said. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order," and interruption. ]

They are not going to dictate to me. [ Interruption. ] I will pull them up.

The hon. Member for Dumbarton must not remain standing when I rise. He is not rising to a point of order.

I want to know whether this is a point of Order or not? I have a right to ask a question, have I not?

Unless the hon. Member who is possession of the Committee gives way, an hon. Member on the other side of the Committee has no business to interject.

The hon. Member for Swindon was standing in the gangway, and it is one of our Rules that an hon. Member should not speak from there.

On a point of Order. Was it not suggested that the hon. and learned Member was speaking from the Gangway? Am I not entitled to ask if an hon. Member is permitted to address the Committee from the Gangway, like Oliver Cromwell?

I did not hear that point of Order. If I had heard it, I would have suggested to the hon. and learned Member for Swindon that he should move a little further down the Floor.

Captain FitzRoy— [HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down ! "] I will not sit down! I have got the Floor now—

My point of Order is that I did not catch what the hon. Member said. I did not understand the point made by the hon. Gentleman. I do not know whether he is a gallant gentleman. I do not know, and I do not care, if he is learned. He was making a point and he referred to the Clyde. [HON. MEMBERS: "That is not a point of Order ! "] I want to know what he was saying in reference to the Clyde—

I have told the hon. Member several times that that is not a point of Order.

But he might have been out of Order, Mr. Deputy-Chairman. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order ! "] I will say —[HON. MEMBERS: "Name," and interruption. ] You can name me, if you like. If you name me, I will not go out.

I assure you, Captain FitzRoy, that if I "put my foot in it," I am very sorry. So far as the hon. Member for Dumbarton is concerned, if he did not catch my observations, I am most ready to repeat them. I would have done so quite a long time ago, if he had merely asked me in the ordinary way. I said that I represented a constituency where the working men were all genuine British working men. I said that that distinguished my constituency from other more cosmopolitan regions within these islands. I quoted a little Latin tag which, when freely translated, came to this, that half the water in the Clyde got there from the Vistula. If the hon. Member wants my explanation of that, I mean to say that in that region, and in that particular part of the country, there is a very cosmopolitan population, which cannot all claim true Scottish or British descent.

All I have to say is that whatever the respective merits may be, in the constituency I have the honour to represent, no cause is likely to commend itself more to the working men and working women who sent me here than the defence from molestation of stalwart sailors who are going about the seas on their lawful occasions. There was one point which the Leader of the Opposition brought forward, and of which he made a great deal. That was that our grievances against Russia appear to have accumulated until now we had to bring them forward, I think he said, like a display of goods in an Oxford Street shop window. The reason is obvious.

It is that the country has, for a very long period, been waiting for, and has now returned to power, a Government with a backbone.

It is to my gratification, as a humble back-bencher, that they have at last taken up a courageous and firm attitude against a course of intrigue and perfidy which has been condoned far too long. The Leader of the Opposition went on to make the observation that we should use great caution, and thoroughly satisfy ourselves of the merits of the case before we pronounced judgment. This may be the caution which they use when it is a question of a few fishermen and a few ecclesiastics, but I do not find that in June last year, when the 47 social revolutionaries were on their trial, that hon. Gentlemen opposite exercised quite so much patience before they came to a conclusion. Here is a resolution, moved at the Trade Union Conference, in June of that year, by Mr. Cramp, which

Will the hon. and learned Member allow me to state we have done the same with regard to the religious trials?

I am glad you have been able to make up your minds so far as the religious question is concerned. We were asked by the. Leader of the Opposition to exercise great care, so that we should not prejudice this question. As I have observed, hon. Members were less particular when their own comrades were concerned.

I turn to the Agreement. It was, as exerybody knows, the foundation of that Agreement that Bolshevist propaganda in our Empire should cease upon its conclusion. I venture to say that that Agreement was broken absolutely from the beginning. It was broken to the knowledge of all hon. Members in this House, because reference is made to it in a paper from the India Office—the "Report on the Moral and Material Progress of India," 1921, which was ordered to be laid on the Table of the House in the Summer of 1922. That Report speaks of the difficulty which was being experienced in India in settling down under the new reforms on account of "the advancing tide of Bolshevist aggression." Having gone on to say that the Bolshevists had managed to conclude a Draft Treaty with Afghanistan, which secured them a valuable advance post for the subversion of India by their propaganda, it concludes by saying:

Of course, there is not the slightest doubt in the world that there is no quarrel between the British people and the Russian people. The quarrel is between our country and our Empire, organised as it is, and the crowd of ruffians who, in our opinion, have ground the Russian people under their heels. We believe the Russian people would largely sympathise with us, and would become more friendly with us if we told them we were not going to have any truck with their oppressors. Surely, if these people were in earnest, the situation would be entirely different. What signs do they show of a change of heart? If a man steals your watch, you do not invite him to dinner to your house and leave him there with the spoons. You expect, first of all, that he should express his contrition and should show that he has had a change of mind and intends to lead an honest life. You expect, also, that he should give some evidence of that intention by making restitution. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) said that in the days gone by India was a continual focus for Russian intrigue. So it was, but times have changed, and while I am extremely gratified to think that the Government are now pursuing a policy which, I believe, will do much to restore our prestige, I cannot be sanguine enough to think that it will effect a radical cure in this particular case. The trouble in India, like so many maladies from which the body politic is at present suffering, is an inherited disease, and the sins of our political fathers are being visited on us the political children. The point is that the disease is too deep-seated, and for this reason: When the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs was Prime Minister, he had a Secretary of State who, when he assumed office, found India, inhabited by 315,000,000 people, in a state of pathetic contentment. When he relinquished office ho left India a veritable hotbed of anarchy and discontent.

On a point of Order. Is the hon. and learned Gentleman in order in criticising a former Secretary of State for India on the Vote for the salary and expenses of the Foreign Office?

On that point of Order. Is not propaganda in the North-west corner of India also applicable to this Debate?

I did not gather that the hon. and learned Gentleman was criticising the Secretary of State for India.

My point, if it was not clear to the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite, was this: Whereas, in days gone by, when you had India governed, as it was, in my opinion, then, by capable, strong, experienced and public-spirited men, it was more or less immune from the virus of hostile propaganda, but that the lamentable and ill-advised policy of the last Government has now pulled down, in five years, what it took 200 years of patient toil to erect, and has created a state of affairs in India which is peculiarly liable to the dissemination of Bolshevist diseases.

There is the same Minister for India in this Government as there was in the last.

8.0 P.M.

I trust that what the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs called the steel framework of India may be, to some extent, built up again, because that will be the wisest way in which we can render India immune from hostile propaganda. It is still a steel framework. It is intolerable to my mind to think of that wonderful structure, built rivet by rivet, plate by plate, and girder by girder during 200 years, being destroyed. Many men have given their lives that one little unseen bolt in that framework should hold fast. Five years have passed, and what is the condition now? Last year only five British candidates entered the I.C.S. [ Interruption. ] The steel framework, if this goes on, is not going to be the same structure that it was, but more like the steel framework of a discarded umbrella. If they want to have India as it was, they must do something to supply India with what she used to have, rulers from the best and highest class in this country. I mean not necessarily men of wealth or high rank, but men who are educated and energetic men.

May I ask if it is in order to criticise the recruitment of the Indian Civil Service on the Foreign Office Vote?

I have not occupied the Chair long enough to have followed the hon. Gentleman's arguments.

I was merely pointing out that some alteration of policy was necessary to counteract Bolshevism in India. One more point. Why should we be so assiduous and solicitous to counteract propaganda at the four corners of the earth? It puzzles me that you suffer it to go on here in London under our own eyes. [An HON. MEMBER: "Communist schools ! "] Yes, certainly, Communist Sunday schools. But it is rather curious that we should find such a statement as this. A message of the Young Communist League—

I cannot help thinking that this is a little wide of the Foreign Office Vote.

My point was that the whole issue is to counteract this propaganda in those parts, and it does seem to me strange that same propaganda should be allowed to go in London.

The conclusion of the matter is really, I think, if I may be permitted to quote the words used by Lord Beaconsfield in the last speech which he addressed to Parliament, to be found in that speech, which, it seems to me, put the whole question of India and the assault made by propaganda on our Empire there in its right light. He said:

"My Lords, the key of India is not Herat or Canadahar. The key of India is London. The majesty and sovereignty, the spirit and vigour of your Parliament, the inexhaustible resources, the ingenuity and determination of your people—these are the keys of India."

The one relevant remark that the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Banks) made on the subject now before the Committee was the fact that he secured election on the subject of Bolshevism. I am very glad to hear that. because I have seen some specimens of the anti-Bolshevist leaflets circulated at the last Election, and I am quite confident the electors of this country would not be taken in by them a second time.

They have a way of circulating themselves. May I say in regard to this very important subject we have before us to-day, and the interesting speech by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, that, in spite of many of the expressions to which he gave utterance in order to encourage his followers behind him, nevertheless the main fact has been detached that Lord Curzon is going to receive M. Krassin and that the negotiations are not to be broken off. I for one am very glad to hear that. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) said that the Russians were not an easy people with whom to negotiate. I wonder whether the Russians think Lord Curzon a very easy person to negotiate with. With regard to the repeated question which the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs put to my hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. "What would you do?" he asked. He kept on repeating that at every stage in his speech. It is perfectly clear what is at the bottom of the whole trouble. The bottom of the trouble on this question is our refusal to recognise the Russian Government. This question of recognition is one of very great importance. Recognition of a Government does not depend on its quality or its methods but purely and solely on its stability. That is the only point that ought to be taken into account in recognising the sovereignty of another nation. I would refer the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Vote to books on International Law, and he will find there is no instance in history of so long a period elapsing in which a Government —which has shown stability from the fact that after five and a half years it is: more firmly established—has been denied recognition in the way we have denied it. I cannot help thinking that we in this country to a large extent do not understand the Russian character, that we are ignorant with regard to Russian mentality and Russian circumstances, and that we really do not understand the genius1 of the Russian people. But I should be the first to denounce cruelty and atrocities which take place in Russia, and which are bound to rouse indignation and resentment and feelings of the strongest possible horror in this country. I am the first to admit that. I will give the Committee some instances which I think we will all agree are in every sense of the word regrettable. In three years prisons, with a maximum holding capacity of 107,000. have been made to hold over 180,000; 2,180 executions after sentence of death; 1,299 shot without sentence of death; innumerable cases of torture, in prison, resulting in three years in 160 suicides, 74,000 persons expelled under just the sole order of the Government, and in four years 406 editors condemned to prison and 1,085 periodicals' suppressed. That is a hideous state of affairs. No question about that. But the years I am referring to are not recent years, but from 1905 to 1908.

And these figures, unlike the atrocities quoted to-day from the Bolshevists, are authentic reports produced by the Duma and got from the information of the officials themselves. Why in those days was there no indignation?

Why was no popular indignation aroused and why was there no long descriptions in the Conservative press of those awful horrors? There are two reasons. Tsardom was accepted as a reasonable form of Government and there was a great movement for the development of Russia, in order to allow British capital to flow into Russia to be invested in that country, and the great business people did not want that to be disturbed. The result was that there was not a word said by the Tory party in this House or by the Tory press in the country. It was only a few of us in this House who ever raised the matter and we were told in those days that we ought not to interfere with the internal affairs of another nation. Why all this indignation now? It is the most shameless hypocrisy. It is really indignation that is merely used as a cloak for political animosity against a particular form of Government. Hon. Members opposite get up in a tremendous state of moral indignation at the execution of a Bishop. Under the Tsar's régime a Persian ecclesiastic, one of the highest possible in Persia—and after all Persia may be respected—was by the Tsar's troops hung up to a tree. If hon. Members want to see a photograph of that, I have one here. We raised the question in the House in an attack on the persecution of religion. In that case Tsardom was approved and if Tsardom were reinstated to-morrow it would be recognised the day after. There would be no trouble about recognition if we had Tsardom. The animosity on the benches opposite, especially below the Gangway, is simply because, if you believe a Government to be socialistic or communist, you think there would be a great danger because it may become an example to ether parts of the world. That is where the fear is and hon. Members opposite do not conceal the fact at all.

I am perfectly convinced to-day that there is a very great deal of deep disappointment on those benches at the very fact that Lord Curzon has consented to see M. Krassin. They would like to see the breakdown of the negotiations. I do not want to enter into the particular questions in the Note that was presented to the Russian Government, because I am quite prepared to say that all the charges are true. I say, granting all the charges are true, granting all the propaganda, it is their form of carrying on warfare against us because we have refused recognition. Recognise them, and they would get into a different frame of mind and we should not have had the differences now before us. The Under-Secretary of State complains of the alarm which has been caused by this question. I consider that he himself is entirely responsible because, had he not given that strong emphasis as he turned to his supporters in saying the gunboat would use force if necessary, I do not believe it would have raised any particular attention at all. But I think that he has himself to blame for all the alarms that have been caused.

But what is our method when we want to protest against the execution of this bishop in Russia? I myself consider that it is very doubtful whether we should interfere in the internal affairs of another country, however much we may disapprove of what they are doing; but if we do, we should adopt a diplomatic method which will not be likely to arouse unnecessary animosity in those to whom we address ourselves. Our first despatch was a curt Note addressed to this Government, endeavouring to protest against the proposed execution. What I would say is this. Did we, in all the terrors perpetrated under the Czar, ever address a single despatch, or protest to the Russian Government? I do not believe that we did. I do not believe that there was a single authentic protest from this Government to the Government of the Czar, and I do not believe that while Abdul Hamid was massacring his Armenian subjects by the hundred we ever addressed a protest like this. We always sent a carefully-phrased document, which was not likely to wound the susceptibilities of those to whom it was addressed. In our dealings with the Soviet Government we have adopted the method of threats. I agree with what is said in the Russian reply is not the method by which partial and secondary misunderstanding between States can be solved. I am certain that, if this policy of threats is continued, the misunderstanding which exists now may reach a very grave and dangerous point

After all, if we have got to the point of negotiations between Mr. Krassin and Lord Curzon, Mr. Krassin should be thanked and not Lord Curzon. We do not for a moment associate ourselves with the actions of the Soviet Government. I dis- approve of the Bolshevik system. I disapprove of their action. I think that their form of Government is deplorable and by no means to be copied, but that is their look-out and not our look-out. The Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs said that we have been very patient, and that for 3½ years nothing has been done. I think that he made a great mistake there. During these 3½ years Russia was continuing its propaganda and its provocative action against us, and we were doing exactly the same. We were treating Russia as a pariah, excluding her from conferences, treating her with the most deliberate hostility at Lausanne, and by a change in our traditional policy with regard to straits we have alienated Russia more deliberately than by any diplomatic move in recent years. So it is no wonder that this surreptitious warfare has been going on between the two countries.

The Soviet Government itself have had a very difficult time to go through. They inherited the legacy of Czardom, the chaos, the confusion, the corruption which Czardom left. They had the burden of the War resting on their shoulders. They had famine, and they had the-Western Powers subsidising, arming, and helping all their enemies: Koltchak, Denikin, Yudenitch, Wrangel and all the rest of them. We were not waging open warfare, but- in a secret, cowardly way we were subsidising the enemies of the Soviet Government. I do not believe that, when history comes to be written, a more cowardly page in our history will be found than that in which is recorded our treatment of Russia and the Russian people during the last five on six years. All this policy of pinpricks, this sort of petulant behaviour on foreign affairs during the last few years, is the worst type of diplomacy possible. I myself feel that the Conference at Lausanne may be doing better. That is perhaps owing to the absence of Lord Curzon. His absence from the Conference is all to the good. I am not sure but his absence from the Foreign Office would be better still. The essence of good diplomacy is that it should be directed towards appeasement and accommodation and not toward the aggravation of differences; and I believe that if we adopt this policy we shall settle now these very grave questions, which after recent events remain between us and Russia and which aggravate the chaotic situation which exists in Europe to-day.

From the moment I entered this House I have taken an interest in the future of Russia. I believe in the Russian people. I believe that they have got a great future, not only because they have got unlimited economic resources in their country, but, apart from their potential and material wealth, they have shown to the world of literature, art, and learning, a pre-eminence which modern Western Powers cannot surpass. I want to see these people, who are passing still through great clanger and difficulties and trials, allowed to work out their own salvation, and their future development in their own way, uninterfered with by us or by any other nation. I want to see obstacles removed from their path, so that they may take their place once again in the community of nations. I hope that the Government will give up their old acrimonious and censorious tone of criticism and adopt towards this great people an attitude of helpful conciliation and normal friendship, because I am convinced, and more than ever convinced by the tone of the Russian reply to Lord Curzon's Note, that if we adopt this tone they will follow suit and come towards us in a like spirit, and will be only too ready to adjust all those claims of ours which are based on a firm and just foundation.

In rising to support the Government in this matter, I do so, not because I am one of those who occupy these two benches who were returned to Parliament on condition that they would, in certain circumstances, support the present administration— although I am happy to say, in common with many other hon. Members who occupy these benches, that it is a, promise which they have ever desired to carry out—but because I am convinced that in the case of foreign policy, and in a case of this kind, when British subjects and a British ship have been interfered with by a foreign Power, the Government should receive the undivided support of all Members of the House. It is typical of the hon. Member who has just spoken, a Member of that party which professes to protect more than any other party the interests of the working-class men and women of this country, that the question of the fishermen who have been detained in Russia, and in some cases put to forced labour, has not been dealt with by him. The hon. Member did not raise that question. He confined himself to the religious side of the Note. As regards the Czar question, I do not think for a moment that any hon. Member would stand up and say that he was in sympathy with the whole of the administration under the Czar. On the contrary, some of us think that there were most severe sentences passed for trivial offences. At the same time, it is rather inconsistent to compare the conditions in Russia to-day with those which prevailed before the War. The world to-day is as different from the world before the War as chalk is different from cheese. It has been said that the Russian Government carried on propaganda in India and in other places in 1904, and that because of that we should not grumble at the propaganda which is carried on now. The propaganda of 1904 was not carried on in the British Isles. I would like to know what Foreign Secretary would have permitted such propaganda to be carried on in this country. I was at an interesting meeting in Trafalgar Square on Sunday last. Several members of the Labour party were there, speaking against our attitude in regard Russia. I was very surprised to see banners on which was inscribed, "No King, no God, no Law." I would be very interested to know whether the Labour party are in sympathy with such doctrine. The last speaker said that the propaganda of the Russian Government is a form of warfare against ourselves, and that the way to treat it is not to protest, but to tell the Russians that if they will stop we will be prepared to open negotiations with a view to recognising their Government.

My argument was that that propaganda would not have taken place if we had originally recognised the Soviet Government.

I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon. Negotiations are very well up to a point, but in my humble opinion the point was long since reached when the advisability of negotiations could no longer be urged. Would this Government or would the people of this country sanction our being treated by any constitutional Power in the world as our subjects have been treated by the Russians? For instance, would we be prepared to accept from France or America the treatment that we have accepted from Russia? If we would refuse to accept such treatment from the Powers named, why should we be prepared to accept it from a Bolshevist Government which continually insults us? The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) said he hoped that the Government would take into consideration the view to be expressed by M. Krassin when the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs gives him an audience. That was very wise counsel. I have no doubt that the Secretary of State will take into consideration the views expressed by the Russian representative, but at the same time I was very pleased to hear that under no circumstances, unless the Russian Government complied with the conditions laid down in our Note, would we withdraw anything that had been said. I hope that other hon. Members will endorse the view which I have expressed and will support the Government to-night.

The hon. Member for Brightside (Mr. Ponsonby) drew attention to the number of imprisonments and executions that took place in Russia in the three years between 1905 and 1908 under the Tsarist régime . He was very careful not to say anything at all about what has been going on in Bolshevist Russia in recent years. In 1921 the official figures of the executions in Russia were published. From that list we find that where there was, perhaps, one execution in the time of the Tsar—there were 3.500 in three years—there were hundreds of executions in Bolshevist Russia between 1917 and 1921. No fewer than 1,800,000 people were butchered by these scoundrels in four years, to say nothing of the huge numbers murdered since. When one thinks of the atrocities that have been perpetrated in Russia, the wonder is that any nation in the world will have anything whatever to do with the present Government of Russia. You read of people being marched in huge strings down into the Neva; of holes being cut in the ice, and of men being marched in and drowned. There was the death of a Bishop, who was made into a solid block of ice by having water poured over him. Such cases are enough to put the Russian Government outside the pale of ordinary nations. I consider that we ought never to have had any negotiations with them, even for a trade agreement.

The horrors of the massacres of Genghis Khan in the 12th century, of Tamerlane in the 14th century, and of Ivan the Terrible in the 16th century, pale into insignificance compared with the filthy butcheries of this abominable Government in Moscow. On the ground merely of the atrocities which they have committed, I think we would have been much better advised had we adopted the attitude alluded to by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), the attitude which we assumed towards France at the time of the French Revolution, and if we said we would have no dealings whatever with them until a Government was formed which the nations could respect. In the first place, the Government in power in Russia at the present time is not a Government elected by the people. It is a tyranny. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is their own! "] It is not a Government which has been democratically elected, and it consists of those who have placed themselves in power and who, by means of the Red Army, are able to control and to tyrannise over the people of Russia. Hon. Members opposite know that as well as anyone. As regards the trade which we have done since the Trade Agreement was signed on 16th March, 1921, it is inconsiderable. When the Trade Agreement was signed, I was one of those who opposed entering into it. We were told by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs that there was a great change in Russia. The right hon. Gentleman said: Interruption. ] Hon. Members opposite always say that they are not Communists —with the exception of one hon. Member over there. But whenever anyone says anything against a Communistic form of government, at once the whole Labour party, almost without exception, jeer at it, and they always argue in their speeches in favour of this Communistic Russian Government.

We simply say they will work out their own salvation, according to their own light, in the circumstances in which they are placed.

I am saying also that until they come back to that system of trade which is adopted by every other nation in the world they will never be able to trade to any great extent with this country or any other country. I propose to show that since the Trade Agreement was made, we have not increased our trade with Russia to any great extent—in fact, hardly at all. During the last year we have sent to Russia £3,678,000 worth of British goods, and we have imported from that country £8,175,000 worth. I take these figures from an answer given to a question by the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. A. T. Davies) and they show that the total trade comes to £11,750,000. The real thing that matters to the people of this country, is the amount which we have exported, because we want to increase our exports. The amount which we exported last year, after two years of this Russian Trade Agreement, was only £3,678,000. Do hon. Members opposite realise what this means? Let me point out that the gargoyles of the Labour Party are going about all over the country—[HON. MEMBERS: "What"?] I said the "gargoyles." [HON. MEMBERS: "What are they?"] The gargoyle is a very diabolical and stone-faced image whose proper function is to spout, and I say the soap-box orators who are among the friends of hon. Members opposite are going about all over the country saying that if we only go on with this agreement with Russia, we are going to find more employment for the unemployed people of this country. Before the Trade Agreement was made two years ago the same argument was used, and I say that trade has not gone up except by a very little since that time. As a matter of fact, of every £100 worth of British goods exported from this country to other countries Russia takes only 10s. worth.

On a point of Order. Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman in order in referring to any hon. Member of this House as a gargoyle?

It is a picturesque expression, but I cannot say it is out of Order. I am not aware of a precedent.

I think the hon. Member is under a misapprehension. I said nothing about a gumboil.

When I used the expression "gargoyle," I was alluding to those quite humble members of the Labour party who stand on orange-boxes and, I am afraid, add very largely to the votes of that party, at election times. I was trying to prove that the trade with Russia at the present time is a very small matter. As regards our total trading, only £3,500,000 of our exports go to Russia and our total exports are £720,000,000, so that our exports to Russia represent less than 10s. in every £100 of goods which we export. As regards imports, the amount is a little larger. Last year we imported £1,003,000,000 worth of goods and out of every £100 worth of goods which we imported into this country Russia sent us 16s. worth. I suggest that amount of trade is not going to make very much difference to employment in this country. Even before the War, when Russia was a going concern, our trade with that country only represented about 5 per cent. of our total import and export trade.

I have the figures for 1921, the last I could get, and if you take the other countries which used to belong to old Russia, you will find that we are doing a trade now of something like £20,000,000 with them, that is to say, with those parts of Russia which have been taken away from the Soviet Government under the Peace Treaty and by other arrangements, such as Finland, Esthonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, and Bessarabia. If you count the trade which we are doing with those countries, you will find that we are doing far more trade with them than with Soviet Russia and that they took something like £8,000,000 worth of our export goods and sent us £12,000,000 worth of goods, so that in reality, if you add the figures together for every year up to the latest that we have been able to get, say, 1920, you will find that we did 81 per cent. of our pre-War trade with Soviet Russia and with those parts of Russia which have been separated from it, which is an extremely good percentage, considering that, as regards Germany, we were only doing 38 per cent. of imports and 55 per cent. of exports. Therefore, I suggest that this Trade Agreement really does not matter-to this country in the very least. We have not increased our trade to any great extent by it. What the Bolshevists wanted by that Agreement was merely recognition. They wanted to use it as a stepping stone towards complete de jure recognition from this country, and they have undoubtedly reaped a great benefit from the Trade Agreement through the prestige which was given them in other countries. Both America and France, the two greatest Republics in the world, have refused even to give them this de facto encouragement which we have given in the Trade Agreement. I say that it has not improved our trade, and I disagree with it, because I think that, whatever you do to bolster up this Communist Government, which, I believe, is only a passing phase in Russian history, is only delaying the time when Russia will be reconstituted, and when she will be able to send great quantities of, probably, grain and timber into Europe, and thereby help to restore the situation.

For these reasons, I must say that I am disappointed that the Government have not broken off the negotiations, and I sincerely hope that, unless a very different tone is adopted by the Soviet Government in their next Note to this country, our Government will carry out what the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs said, namely, that unless they comply with our demands the Government intend to carry out their threat of regarding the Trade Agreement as having been abrogated. We cannot trade with the Government at present in power in Russia in the same way as we can with the Governments of other countries. The hon. Member for Brightside (Mr. Ponsonby) alluded to the fact that we did not raise objections when Abdul Hamid carried out his atrocities in Armenia, and also when the Russians did certain things of which a great many people in this country did not approve, but in those days we had diplomatic representatives in both those countries, and I think it is extremely improbable that very strong Notes were not sent to the Turkish Government at that time in regard to the atrocities. Indeed, I remember on many occasions protests being raised by the British Government against those atrocities, but we have not got, and we do not intend to have, diplomatic representation at Moscow, at any rate, at present, and the reason is, that we do not regard the Soviet Government as a proper Government of Russia.

Until we get a proper Government of Russia, upon whose word we can rely, I hope that no Government will be so foolish as to recognise them de jure , although that was undoubtedly the intention of the right hon. Member for the Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) when he went to Genoa last year. Some allusion was made to M. Tchitcherin, and one has only to read the instructions which were sent round to the Bolshevist agents and trade agencies all over the world to know how much one can rely upon their word. He said:

I should like to say that, with regard to one or two of the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for Finsbury (Lieut.-Colonel Archer-Shee), I think, unlike him, I have seen a Soviet election. I should say, first of all, that I am not in favour of the Soviet system in this country. It happens that I am a pacifist, and do not believe in force being used anywhere. That is why, very often, I come up against the hon. and gallant Member and his friends on the other side. I am in exactly the same position in regard to him and others who want to use force as I am in with regard to the Bolshevists of Russia. I can appreciate the good in them and, if I may say so, the good in hon. and right hon. Members opposite and on this side who disagree with me. Having said that, I want to say that it is sheer, undiluted nonsense to say that there are no such things as elections in Russia. I happened to see the elections take place for the Moscow Soviet. I attended a meeting of the Moscow Soviet, and told M. Kammenef and others who were present that it was so deadly dull that it reminded me of the London County Council. The business was carried on in exactly the same manner, and I saw no tyranny about it in the sense inferred by the hon. and gallant Gentleman just now. I want to say also that, when it comes to recognising or not recognising a Government that destroys, shoots, executes, or persecutes its opponents, there is not a single Government that calls itself Christian that can sit in judgment on any other Government. It is one of the vices, or, if you like, one of the necessities of government, as we have had evidence here in this House in regard to Irishmen. It is apparently one of the necessities of government that you must put down those who attempt to overthrow you. In doing so you do very ugly things. I must not attempt to argue that in the short space of time I intend to speak, but I want to lay down as strongly as I can that there is no Government in Europe to-day but takes to itself the right to put its opponents in prison, to execute them, and, if necessary, to use all the rigours that the Bolsheviks have used against their opponents. I am saying this not in order to say that two blacks make a white, but only to suggest that we ought to clear our minds of cant when we are talking of this subject, and face the realities of the situation.

Russia, of all countries in Europe, deserves the sympathy and the help of Europe more than any other country. Here is a country which has for nearly 10 years been cursed by war, pestilence, and famine. At the period I was there they were suffering untold miseries for want of food. Hon. Members opposite smile, but it is no laughing matter, that these unhappy people have been obliged to endure such misery. When I was in Russia they were enduring starvation plus pestilence, and starvation plus typhoid and cholera and all those other diseases which come from a lack of food and warmth. This condition of things had been brought about not by the Revolution, but by the conditions which have come into play because of the War and because of Russian exhaustion from the War. There is nobody who knows anything of it, but—

Will the hon. Gentleman tell us whether those con- ditions prevailed during the War before the Revolution?

Yes, certainly; from the first day of the War until the War came to a close there was a continual struggle against the forces of reaction in order to carry on the War, the reactionary forces in Russia, led by Rasputin and others, were continually thwarting the energies of those concerned so that the Russian Army went into action very often with no ammunition at all. That is true beyond any question of dispute. The revolution was caused because the Russian Government absolutely failed in its business of government. They failed because, as M. Paleologue, the French Ambassador at Petrograd, has put on record, because of the reactionary forces. On the top of this came the revolution, the most tremendous event in modern European history, and surrounded by enemies, with England pouring out money like water, and the French supplying ammunition and guns to a tremendous extent, these people, beaten to the earth, as a defeated army rose, and beat off their oppressors and those who would have put them again under the heel of their ancient oppressors. There is nothing in the history of the last 10 years that stands out like it and is stamped more with heroism than the conduct of the Russian people that beat off all attacks made upon them. It is no use hon. Members opposite standing up and talking about propaganda. You have had propaganda by deed. We had Mr. Churchill, the British Government, and the Denekin propaganda. Hon. Members opposite never raised their voices against it.

I do not want to raise these questions merely from the point of view of controversy, except to ask that if we are going into the question of propaganda let us go into it on both sides. Let both sides say they are going to stop it. I have read the late Sir Mark Sykes' books on Central Asia, where you have a picture of the antagonism which existed between the English and the Russians. I have read some of the books dealing with the problems connected with Central Asia, and all through there has been this controversy between the two nations. The Bolsheviks, in spite of everything that has been said on the other side, are the only Government in the world that has said they are willing to disarm and submit all questions to arbitration without any appeal to arms at all. No one yet—at least I know of no other country—has taken the same line as they have done. If you want peace with Russia you have only to say that on your frontier where it touches hers in the East you will disarm, and she will disarm. I went to Russia, not in any official capacity, but I was asked by the Finnish Foreign Minister to take in a Memorandum concerning Finnish prisoners with me; that is really how I got into Russia at the time I did. When I came out I was asked to tell the Finnish Foreign Minister that if the Finns threw down their arms, if they could agree with the Bolsheviks of Russia in appealing to Great Britain and the other naval Powers to make the Baltic a neutral sea, then Russia would never dream of keeping warships on that sea. The Bolsheviks are ready to do that anywhere—in the Black Sea, the Baltic, wherever they have any interests. Where is any other Government that has attempted or proposed anything of the kind, or any Government that has done it? I want to know why these facts are denied when you are cursing these people and calling them ruffians—it is a disgrace to this House to say these things about those people; of any other land you would not allow it to be said—that the people who represent them should be called ruffians and pirates and all that kind of thing. You know perfectly well they are not. [HON. MEMBERS: "Question ! "1 You know perfectly well that M. Krassin and M. Tchitcherin and the rest of them are just as good and decent as you.

No one knows it better than the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs. You know perfectly well that the Americans were not pirates when they seized your rum boats. The Bolsheviks were not pirates when they seized your fishing boats! When the hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary meets M. Krassin, he knows he will meet a respectable, honest, decent man, and as good a man as most. It is no use calling them ruffians' in this kind of way

I have spoken about armaments because I want to say this further word: The British Government, as the Under-Secretary knows quite well, and the French Government, and all those have been referred to in the Diary of the French Ambassador to Moscow, which has just been published—everybody knows—that if you get your way and you get Czardom restored in Russia, every question that you think you are settling at Lausanne will be re-opened, because you are under the pledge to give Constantinople to the Russian Government. Every little country along the Baltic that now has freedom, because there is a Bolshevik Government in Russia, will lose their freedom because Imperialist Russia will want them taken in again, and it is only the Socialist Bolshevik Government of Russia that has given them their freedom. No one knows that better than hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. Therefore, you are, by your policy towards the Bolsheviks, whose policy you dislike, threatening to re-open every one of the questions connected with Asia which you think you are settling so satisfactorily with the Turks just now. I promised I will only take a quarter of an hour, and I want to keep my word for once. Before I sit down, however, T should like to say two or three words about religion. Any honest man always feels a little diffident of talking about religion. None of us Westerners like to talk of religion. I want however to say this, that if you want other people to think that your civilisation and your religion and your form of Government is better than theirs, you must show them a better example. When I make interruptions about James Connolly and Gandhi and others, it is because I cannot understand how you can get so virtuously indignant about shooting people and the imprisonment of archbishops, and you yourselves put men like Gandhi behind bars in India. I do not know anybody in the world like Gandhi, and yet all the British Government can do is to put him in prison. With regard to religious persecution in Russia, I do not believe that there is any in the ordinary sense of the word. Years ago I heard the late Member for West Birmingham talking about secular education in schools. It is nothing new, this denial of the right of religious education in schools, and it has been a controversy in the world for years. They have no religious instruction in the schools in France or America, and I believe they have none in Australia. I do not agree with that, because I want to see religious education established, but because of that I am not going to curse the people who-do not agree with me.

I do not want to assist the prejudice against the Russian Government because they will not have religious education in their schools. The people who do more to destroy real religion are those who do not live up to their religion. Those who do the most harm are the intellectuals who deny the truth of our religion. In this respect I wish to mention Mr. J. M. Robertson, not to throw a stone at him, but nevertheless I think he does Christianity much more harm than all the proletarian schools put together, because he has the power to put his thoughts into writing and he destroys men's faith by creating confusion in their faith. What I want to appeal to the Committee upon s that hon. Members should get out of their minds that we can impose our religion upon Russia. We can protest as I die! and ask them not to execute bishops or anyone else. When I was in Russia I interfered two or three times when perhaps I ought not to have done so, but I cannot get away from the fact that they are right when they say to me, "Clear your own doorstep at home first." That is what I ask the Committee to consider.

The world as I see it, and especially Europe, is in a condition unparalleled in the history of mankind. I am not so optimistic as other people, I do not see in trade a development of that good feeling amongst men and women which some of us hoped might possibly come out of the War. Although I took no part in it myself, I am always ready to admit that it pulled out from every class in the community a tremendous effort of sacrifice and good will. Some people believed that out of all that evil some good might come, but we see the spectacle this afternoon of people talking about these Russians as if they were the scum of the earth and they speak of the Jews in the same way I am privileged to have heard Mr. Disraeli from the benches opposite, but because he was a Jew nobody would describe him as the scum of the earth, or as being less worthy than anybody else. Because some of the Bolshevists are Jews, are you going to denounce them simply because of the accident of their birth?

The Foreign Minister is going to see M. Krassin. Surely it would be wise for us to give up abusing the Russians at this moment? Can it be a good thing that the Russians should be called ruffians tonight? Is that the way to get them into the Council Chamber? I think if M. Krassin is met in a proper Christian spirit you will be doing something to help to spread Christianity in Russia. Personally, I think there will eventually be a. great renewal of spiritual life in Europe, led not by Britain but by Russia. Peter Kropotkin, before he died, told me that was his belief and hope. Had I been a younger man I should have gone back to Russia in order to throw in my lot with those people to try and do what one man could do in order to make the biggest experiment that has ever taken place in human affairs a great success. In Russia they are trying, Atheists as they are, the one thing that is necessary to rebuild a ruined world, and that is to establish the communal ownership of the material wealth of the world, and the organisation of Society for the service of mankind, and instead of fighting them Great Britain should be alongside helping them to make it a success.

I have listened with interest to this Debate, and I have wondered amongst those who have spoken how many of them have realised from personal experience what Russia is. I was pleased to hear the last speaker say that he had been to Russia, but I do not think I heard that statement from any other hon. Member. I have had association with Russia for over 30 years, and I would like to ask whether hon. Members of this House understand the problem in its true bearings, or understand that at all times there has always been the Russia with the big "R "and the Russia with the little "r." I do not wish to enter into the question of religion or whether the Tsarist régime was good or bad. because I think we all admit according to our Western ideas that the Tsarist régime was a bad one. I think we all admit also that the present régime is an equally bad one. [HON. MEMBERS: "No ! "] Hon. Members opposite do not agree, but, judging from a long residence in Russia, I should say that the present régime is not approved by the majority of the people, and is not likely to be approved at all in the end.

We have in England a country with free speech and a free Press—[ Interruption ] —except, possibly, in the House of Commons, where an hon. Member is not allowed to speak freely without being constantly interrupted by hon. Members opposite. There are hon. Members who do not understand this Russian problem. Would hon. Members credit that in Russia a large section of the people do not see a newspaper at all. They are of very simple faith, and are very easily led by others. At the present moment the Bolshevist régime is not a truly Russian regime, and is not truly representative of Russian public opinion as we should understand that expression of opinion in England. When we talk about public opinion in England, we mean the opinion of the masses of the people, but when we talk of public opinion in Russia we must necessarily mean the opinion of the few, because the many have neither the opportunity nor the ability to form any opinion at all. It might, perhaps, interest hon. Members to know that I lived in Russia in a settlement of 15,000 inhabitants, where the postmaster did not even know where London was—he thought it was in America—and where the Governor informed me that I received half the letters and all the telegrams, because no one ever corresponded with anyone outside that particular settlement. [ Interruption. ] I am trying to give my experience. I do not object to these interruptions, but I am trying to bring to the Members of this Committee an appreciation of what Russia is, and I speak with an experience extending over 32 years, which is a great deal longer experience than that of many hon. Gentlemen who have addressed the Committee. I do not ask them to agree with me, but I do say that, having lived a great deal among Russians, I am propounding to hon. Members, for the information of those who do not know, that Russia must be divided into two parts, the small part, which is the governing class, and the great part, which is the class that is governed. Therefore, whenever we hear speeches in this Chamber on the subject of Russia, we should differentiate and determine whether the speaker is answering for the governing class or whether he is pretending to answer for the class that is governed. That is the point I wait to make. Whenever I have the privilege of addressing the House, I always endeavour not to repeat what anyone else has said, but to try to make some new point, and then sit down.

There is one point that has not been referred to in this Debate, so far as I have heard it, and that is in regard to the relations of the Soviet house in London with the Russian Government, and the effects of its existence here, that is to say, of one of the incidents of the trade agreement. It is well, I think, to call a spade a spade as nearly as we can, and in referring to the dealings in Russia with properties belonging to English nationals, and also to foreign nationals—properties which have been confiscated—I think it is a. better expression to say that they have been stolen; and it is on behalf of those British nationals who have had their property confiscated that I have risen this evening. The property has been stolen, and it happens that it is property that is not easily identified. It is principally property in oil, in timber, and so on. That property has been confiscated in the Caucasus, in Grozny, Baku, and other districts, and is being sold through this trade organisation in London, an organisation that masquerades as an English company, although in actual fact the shares are held to the extent of, I think, nearly 98 per cent., by the Russian representative who, I believe, arrived in England to-day, M. Krassin, and by M. Klishko. I mention this fact because, the other day, there was a reply to a question which seemed to me to be somewhat out of date. It referred to a capital of £50,000 or £100,000—I forget which it was; but as a matter of actual fact it is much greater now, being something like £1,000,000, and 490,000 out of 500,000 shares were the property of the gentlemen I have named. I ask hon. Members and I ask the Undersecretary of State to take note of that, and I hope that some reply on the subject will be made from both sides as to why it is that the property of British nationals in South Russia should be confiscated and sold in London without there being any redress for those British nationals in respect of this robbery of their property.

Furthermore, I see to-day in the newspaper that a contract is purported to be made, or to be in progress of being made, through this organisation, Arcos, Limited, in London, by the Soviet Government, whereby a contract will be given for 10 years. I wish to enter a protest against any such contract being made, because it is going to tie the hands of everybody, and, so far as oil is concerned, it means that the money received from the sale of the 6tolen goods in London will then be used further to exploit the properties in question, and I dare say in 10 years' time —it is not a difficult calculation, id the matter of oil, to know how far one can go—when the field has become squeezed like an orange, it may then be returned to its present proprietors. There is one thing which has made England what it is, and that is the word of an Englishman, and the gentlemen of Russia will do well to study the word of Englishmen in regard to carrying out their contracts and setting an example of honest and fair dealing. It is not honest and fair dealing, and is in no way defensible, that properties should be nationalised or confiscated, that is to say, simply stolen, that, under the guise of an English company, these products should be sold in London to the detriment of the English nationals, and that these moneys which are realised should then be invested in machinery and other things for the further development of the properties, to the further detriment of those whom we ought to protect.

I trust that there will be some answer from the other side on this question. I am no orator. I cannot wrap my words up in long phrases, but come straight down to the point, and I should like hon. Gentle-who are standing up for trade relations with Russia to answer this point: Are the Russians giving us a fair deal? And, when I speak of the Russians, I do not mean the 120,000,000 or 140,000,000 people with many of whom I became associated in my wanderings through Russia and Siberia; I mean the small governing class who happen to be in power. I am not arguing whether it is a good or a bad thing. I have said that I do not think it is a good Government, but that is, possibly, only my opinion. It is, however, the Government of a small clique, and I hope that those who support them will stand up and explain how it is that what we know in England as a square deal is not offered by those in authority who are at the present moment guiding Russia's destinies. I hope that on our side the final speech in this Debate will also include some remarks on the subject, because it is what stands more in the way of the advancement of British trade than anything else.

We have to deal with people with a different mentality. I have had to enter into many contracts with Russians in times past, and right up to the beginning of the War, and it was always difficult— some speakers in this Debate have referred to it—to make contracts with Russians. It always will be difficult, because of the mentality of the Russian— not of the peasant class, because they are simple and honest people, but of those who consider that the best contract is the one that is most to their advantage. That is not the British principle. The British principle in regard to a contract is that a contract is not satisfactory unless it is satisfactory to both parties. When the representatives of Russia coins over here and give us a British deal according to British standards, I am certain that they will have established a much better opportunity for a full resumption of the relations that existed in times past. It is not for me to criticise or comment upon the form of Government in Russia. As a business man, I am merely pointing out to the Committee where I think those who are managing affairs are now failing, namely, that they have tried to disguise the issue. Hon. Gentlemen opposite who nave spoken in favour of Russia seem to forget this point. They think that by many words and phrases they are going to attain their ends, and that is the practice in Russia. The practice in Russia is to procrastinate, to take a tremendous time. It is always putting off till tomorrow; time is no particular object, provided they attain their ends. In England our methods are more direct, and in the City of London at the present moment, and, I believe, throughout England, there is a general impression that this English company is being used to defraud British shareholders in Russian companies. If anyone will remove that impression, and show that the property which belongs to our people will be restored to them, I am sure they will have done the best possible thing in order to establish renewed or continued friendly relations with the great country with which all of us would like to do trade, provided that there were a basis of trade which would appeal to us.

Like everybody who has spoken from this side of the Committee to-night, I am most anxious that there should be no interruption or dislocation of the present relations with Russia with regard to the Trading Committee which is in this country at the present time. I think it would be disastrous if anything should happen to break off the present relations, weak though they may be, which may lead perhaps to stronger relations, or if anything should happen which would interfere with a better feeling being created. At the same time, I am not going to apologise or to camouflage or to excuse what I consider the sins of the Soviet Government of Russia. I have never been in love with their policy. I am not in love with it to-day. I detest the methods by which they have reached their present policy. It is all very well to say that such things happened in the French Revolution, or in any other revolution. I do not care when they happened. I am opposed to their principle, which, to my mind, is the very antithesis of true democracy.

The Government of Russia, whatever shape it may take, is certainly the business of the Russian people. If the majority of the Russian people are ruled by a minority, and, in my opinion, they are, that surely is the business of the Russians. I do not wish to interfere with their domestic policy, if they reciprocate the principle of not interfering with our domestic policy. In my opinion there has not been that reciprocity of principle. When we talk about not interfering with Russia, what is sauce for the goose ought to be sauce for the gander, and Russian propagandists who claim—and rightly claim, perhaps, in view of all the circumstances—that we have no right to interfere with their domestic policy, cannot complain if we object to them, by their propaganda, interfering with our domestic policy. Can anybody deny the fact that there has been interference with our domestic policy? The beginning of the Russian propaganda in this country was avowedly anti-constitutional. They have a constitution of a kind, which has been set up by methods which I do not like, and if we are not to interfere with their constitutional or unconstitutional methods, what right have they to come here and claim the right to interfere with ours? That they have been doing so is notorious. When they found it was not possible, as I hope it never will be possible, to demoralise the constitution of this country by other means, they tried to get into Parliament, and they got in. Personally, without any bitterness of feeling, I cannot congratulate either Mother well or Moscow on the selection they have made.

I have read the White Paper, and I have listened to the hon. Gentleman's speech. We all rejoiced at the downfall of the tyrannical Tsarist régime. We were rather premature in our rejoicing, considering what has happened since; but the fact remains that even in that time the three-mile limit existed and was a subject of controversy to be settled between the nations. Because our fishermen exercised the right which was, if not legally in force, was generally accepted as the international limit, their ships were taken and some of them were shot. I have been a bit of a rebel in my time. I do not want to go into reminiscences; this is not the time for them; but I am a British citizen and a British constitutionalist, and I am not going, while there is even a semblance of a grievance, to justify what I consider is a high-handed outrage on the fishermen and on property belonging to British citizens in this country.

I come to the more, at least to me, important question, namely, the question of religious persecution, and I hope my colleagues on this side of the Committee will bear with me. I have no wish at all to offend any man's religious susceptibilities, but I, from my earliest infancy, and my forefathers before me, have been devout adherents to the Catholic faith. In a matter of this kind it is no use talking of the Catholic Church or any other Church. Personally I would make no distinction if a man broke the constitutional laws of any country. What evidence have we that these ecclesiastics who were murdered—and they were murdered—had broken any particular drastic law, even of the tyrannical Soviet Government of Russia? None at all. I go further and, putting my own personal opinion on one side, the feeling of horror that went through this country at the execution of the Catholic Bishop aroused the feelings not only of Catholics but of Nonconformists all over the country. I can hear on every side, from every sect, abhorrence at the outrages committed upon the head ecclesiastics of the Russian Church. Whatever we may think about the man with the mitre or the cap, the ordinary rank-and-file man who follows a religious sect cannot discriminate as finely as we can. Religion may have its faults, sects may have their faults, ministers, after all, are only-human, but a nation without religious influence loses the best possible moral asset any nation can get. So I entirely dissociate myself from any attempt to excuse the crimes of the Soviet Government. I hope good sense will prevail. I hope the suggestion thrown out by the Under-Secretary will be taken seriously. It would be disastrous if anything should happen now. After all, I think Russia will rise again under a free, constitutional and democratic Government, which, in my opinion, does not exist to-day. However, that is their business. I have no wish to interfere with them. Let the same thing apply to this country. Can anyone deny that propaganda has not been increased and developed lately! The hon. Member for Mother well (Mr. Newbold) was in my constituency last week, and I heard there that some 50,000-copies of a Soviet Proclamation were issued in and about my constituency. The hon. Member did me the questionable honour of referring to myself, and the question was put by one of his compatriots, "Did he think I was a fit and proper person to represent St. Helen's?" His reply was, that after looking round and having surveyed the constituency, he thought I was. I suppose that is what is known as Moscow wit, but, coming from the hon. Member who represents Motherwell, the irony of the thing was apparent, for whatever the sins of St. Helens may be, it is a paradise to Motherwell.

Anything I can do to assist in bringing about a better state of feeling and a better Russia, with all my heart and soul I would do it. At the same time I am not going to associate myself with any apology, or any camouflage or any whitewashing of any crimes of which Russia and the Soviet Government have been guilty.

I feel that the trend of the Debate and the whole question has been altered by the promise of the Under-Secretary and by the fact that there is now a representative of the Moscow Government here, who will be received by the Secretary of State, and that the questions at present in dispute will be discussed, I hope, in a friendly spirit in order that a settlement may be arrived at. I do not think it will profit very much to continue to consider susceptibilities in regard to what has been said on one side of the Committee or what has been said on the other. It will be much more profitable to contemplate exactly what we should like Russia to do and what we should like ourselves to do, and what are the absolute necessities of the case sco far as we, as a commercial and trading nation, are concerned. It is very easy to be flippant about the value or want of value of a trade agreement. It is very easy to condemn a diplomatic Note, but I should think there is as much justification at the moment for the wholesale condemnation of the last Note that we sent to Russia as there is of the condemnation of the trading agreement which has now been in opera-ton for about two years. With regard to the Note that we sent to Russia, I should like to suggest to the Under-Secretary that war is a game that two can play. It is all very well to make a declaration which, under certain circumstances, would justify a declaration of war, and then for another Minister to get up in another constituency, not his own, and say, "Oh, but we have no quarrel whatever with the Russian people. The last thing we contemplate is war and the last thing we desire is an outbreak of hostilities." If you do certain acts, in accordance with all the criteria of international law, there is only one answer to these things and that is that a state of war is ipso facto produced; and if we consider that at this time, when we are so much concerned with the restoration of ourselves, as well as the restoration of Europe, we are entitled to play with fire to such an extent, I say those who are playing with fire will probably get their fingers burnt and they will howl louder than anyone else. With regard to this Note, it is an extraordinary specification of intentionally hostile acts and of piling up the agony to a very high pitch and, when it comes to the zenith of the complaints, without rhyme or reason the Foreign Office tumbles right down and says, "For all these things in which you have erred from the point of view of your obligations and the rights of nations, having regard to international law, we will do you a very unfriendly thing, that is to say, we will cancel your Trade Agreement." Surely the Foreign Office laboured with a mountain and brought forth a mouse.

I am more concerned with another paragraph which appears not in the Note itself, but in the instructions sent to our representative on 2nd May. I think that imports a principle which we ought to look very carefully at, because otherwise neither the Foreign Office nor this House will be able to have anything to say in the conduct of our foreign policy. We have here a specification of complaints and a determination on the part of the Foreign Office that unless a reply is received, within 10 days, of a satisfactory nature, these trading relations will be broken off, and at the same time there is also this sentence:

Thereupon, this arrangement was made in Moscow, under which a most excellent gentleman was appointed to the head of the trade delegation. He is a gentleman whose abilities are undoubted. He has proved himself in many circumstances, and he would be excellent in Vienna, Rome or Paris; but to put him in Moscow in charge of a trading delegation was perhaps the unkindest cut of all that that individual ever received from his superiors. The result is simply this: that the Foreign Office, having regard to the fact that the delegation here was a trade delegation, refused to deal with them in the ordinary way that they might have dealt with them as a Foreign Office delegation. In Moscow, the Foreign Office delegation has been subjected to the same treatment. Then Moscow and London began to quarrel with each other like two children quarreling over a toy. The result of it is, that the Government in Moscow pays as much attention to the head of the delegation in Moscow as, I am informed on reliable authority—I say it with great respect—they pay to the representative in this House for the constituency of Motherwell (Mr. New-bold).

I think the time has come when we ought to realise that we have—and unless things change we shall have for the next 12 months—a load of at least 1,000,000 unemployed to look after in this country. I do not think there was ever a time when so many signs of reviving trade were present as to-day. If we can get a settlement in Europe I am satisfied that trade will revive, but if we do not get a settlement we shall carry on for at least 12 months with the load of unemployment to which I have referred. If we were to look ahead, if we were to compare the position in Russia to-day with the position which existed six months ago, and more so with the position which existed 12 months ago, we should realise that the conditions are entirely changed, and are changing to such an extent that the Soviet Government has not time to pass Acts of Parliament. They have to make regulations in the nature of by-laws in order to meet the changing circumstances' of the case as they come along from, day to day.

There is no nation which stands so high in Russia to-day as ourselves. We have this trading agreement. It is a link, although it may be a weak link. The obligation in the Agreement may not have been implemented by the Russian Government, but still we have this link. If that link be broken, I am satisfied that within a fortnight the Americans will make the same agreement, and they will profit by all the tribulations through which we have passed. We shall be handing over all the work that we have done there, our position in Russia will be wholly discredited, and we shall be handing over our position there and the trading relations which might have continued to exist in future years, to people determined to exploit it, and we, as we often have done, shall be left to carry the load, and be left entirely separated from what might be our very best and most profitable market.

At the same time, Russia must realise her obligations, just as we must realise our obligations. Her course as a trading country, separated entirely from the trade delegation, will be to realise that if she is to trade in this country she will have to conform to the usages of ordinary trade as it is carried on here. I have a case in mind of orders for 100,000 tons of coal by Arcos, for shipment abroad on foreign vessels. The coalowners are compelled to place the coal on board, f.o.b., in accordance with contracts they have undertaken, or be liable in damages. Immediately these foreign vessels get the coal on board they sail, without converting the bills of lading into cash in this country. We cannot arrest them, we cannot detain the ships, and from the point of the colliery proprietors, that money is lost, their profits are reduced, their turnover is reduced, and the miners, who have excavated that coal, are affected directly, seeing that their wages are affected by profits, simply because Arcos are not prepared to conduct affairs on a commercial basis such as we recognise.

I hope that when the Government meet the Russian delegation they will keep these facts prominently in mind, and that they will remember that the developments in Russia to-day may bring things to a critical stage within the next two or three months. If the trading conditions over there can survive that period, I have no doubt that the relations between us and that country will be perfectly stabilised. If we can do that, we can look forward to good prospects. I cannot understand what the Government hope to gain by cancelling the Trade Agreement and breaking the only link that exists between this country and Russia, because the grievances that they may be able to rectify through the relations which are due to the Trade Agreement they will never be able to rectify if we have no locus standi in Moscow. Therefore, I hope that when these matters are discussed, they will be looked at from the purely impartial and cold-blooded aspect, leaving out all the heat that has been engendered by prosecutions and persecutions which nobody can justify, and that by looking ahead we may encourage these people to come to a frame of mind which will enable them to conform to the usages and customs of civilised nations, in order that in future not only we but the whole of Europe may benefit. If we can do that, by exercising a little patience, I am sure we shall be satisfied that the turbulent period through which we have been passing has not been without its reward.

Hon. Members on both sides of the House will have welcomed the admirable, sensible and well-informed speech which has just been delivered. I want, at the outset, to say that I am much obliged to the Under-Secretary for withdrawing certain remarks which he made with regard to me. I should like to ask for an assurance, and I hope that the question of the division will depend upon it. I have not had an opportunity of consulting hon. Members who are interested on the point, and I do not know what may be the view taken by the Leader of the Opposition in regard to it, but I should like to know that, whatever may be the outcome of the Conference between Lord Curzon and M. Krassin—we all know that Lord Curzon's previous experience with the Soviet Government representative, in the case of M. Tchitcherin, was very short and very unsuccessful—the Government are not simply playing for time, and that after the House rises on Thursday they will break off relations. I think we should be given an assurance that relations will not be broken off, at any rate until the House has had an account given to it of this conversation between the Foreign Minister and M. Krassin—that will be after we meet on 28th May—and an opportunity has been given for discussion. Otherwise, it would be extremely unfair if the Government took advantage of their little gain in time by what, I am very suspicious, would be in the nature of a subterfuge.

I think the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir A. Richardson) was simply delicious in describing the quarrel between the different rival companies who wanted to buy Russian oil. What really happened was than an International Committee was formed in Paris of the Russian oilfield owners and concessionaires. They agreed on no conditions to take each other's property, and also, in those circumstances, not to buy any oil from Russia until their properties were returned. The company which has been under fire now for buying large quantities of oil from Russia, I understand carried out their part of the agreement, but one of the leading oil owners, a Russian, formed a company, and tried to acquire oil from Russia. Then the Anglo-Persian Oil Company could not resist the temptation, as soon as the Conference was over, and it bought two cargoes of oil. Thereupon the Shell Company, which is being attacked now, entered into an arrangement to buy 200,000 tons of oil from Russia, and I think there is no blame on them. If these companies cannot agree among themselves to play the game by each other, it is not for them to throw stones at the Russian Government. It is one of the most amusing controversies we could have had at the present time, and I do not congratulate the hon. Member for Gravesend on trying to champion one of the thieves who fell out.

There is a great deal of misconception about the fishing position. I came up from Hull yesterday, having had an opportunity there of consulting with all the interests—the owners, the men, and everyone concerned in the fishing industry who was entitled to speak. I want to make these observations to the Government. In the first place, the importance of these fisheries to Hull is very great indeed. The hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. J. Ramsay MacDonald) was mistaken when he talked about the White Sea. The fishing is not in the White Sea. We used to fish in the White Sea, and although you can fish in the White Sea, and fish in great areas without going within the three-mile limit, or anything like that, the White Sea is recognised as a closed sea, and we do not fish there. The Murmansk coast is to the west, and far out in the Arctic Ocean. We have in Hull 50 large vessels, especially built for fishing in this area. They represent a capital of between £500,000 and £800,000. The reason why the fishing is valuable is that, at this time of year, they can catch plaice there, and in no other area. Plaice have a good market value, and make the fishing profitable. If the Hull fishermen cannot fish in these waters they will be driven on to the Iceland fishing grounds, with the result that there will be a glut of fish, prices will fall, more boats will be laid up, and, in the long run, prices will be raised to the consumer.

10.0 P.M.

The banks on which the plaice are caught run from about 10 to 12 miles right along that coast, and the 12 mile limit would cut out the whole of the plaice fishing for some 20 miles. Further out are the cod and haddock banks, and it is those that the Russians fish, because they require those fish for salting. Plaice are not suitable for that. The immediate controversy is not a new one, it is very nearly two years old. The matter was raised in 1910, by the Czar s Government, in regard to the 10 mile limit. A trawler called the-" Onward Ho "was taken in by the Russian Government on the same pretext. The Russian Government promised to pay compensation, but they never paid a penny, and how it was settled I do not know. I do not think the owners got anything. When this controversy was started again about two years ago, one or two other ships were chased, and they had to cut away their gear to escape. I and other hon. Members raised the question in the House, and asked the Government to send up a fishery cruiser to give, at any rate, more protection to these ships. It is the fact that when the cruiser is up there, there is no interference at all with the fishing vessels. After a great deal of trouble we got a fishing cruiser sent iip, and the Government definitely promised that they would give protection. Upon that promise we were able to arrange insurance at Lloyd's. When the winter season came on—I think this is interesting to the hon. Member for East Leicester (Captain Arthur Evans) who, as we know, represents a great fishing constituency. I hope he will learn a good deal about the whole matter, because he does not know much now, judging by the question he put recently. Then the ice came on—and this question has only just come to the fore now owing to the extraordinary conduct of the Foreign Minister—the Admiralty discovered that there were ice floes there. The Government actually informed us, when the fishermen of Hull went as a deputation to demand protection, despite the fact that the Admiralty was spending millions on the Navy, that they had no suitable vessel at all for the whole of the winter months. The result was that certain of the Hull fishermen said they would go on fishing, although only some 12 ships went out instead of 50, and the "James Johnston" was captured. By this time the weather got better, and the Admiralty sent a ship up. Unfortunately they overlooked the fact that the vessel could not remain at sea longer than a certain time without requiring coal or fuel. When she went away for fuel, the trawler fleet was again exposed, and out came the Bolshevist gunboat, and the "Lady Astor" was captured.

The least the Government can do is to see that there are two cruisers on the station, which work turn and turn about. I hope we shall not be told we cannot afford the protection. We have had a great outburst of sudden sympathy from hon. Members opposite, and from hon. Members who sit below me.

This happened before the hon. and gallant Gentleman was in the House. It in a matter that happened under the last Government. It is absolutely essential that this 12 mile claim should not be conceded, because the Icelanders will claim a similar 12 mile limit. That will mean that the Icelandic fishing ground will be curtailed, which will be a most serious blow to us. I hope this question will be treated on its merits. It should not be at all confused with the question of propaganda, or judicial murders, or executions of bishops, or anything of that sort. It is the question of protecting British interests, and I hope the matter will be treated on those lines. In Hull, the people do not want war over this question, and I wish to emphasise this point. They do not welcome the exploitation that has been made of our old-standing and just grievance for dynastic or other dark reasons which have actuated the Foreign Secretary.

The Russian side of this question, of course, is that the population of this coast is dependent largely upon fish for its livelihood, and they resent our trawlers coming over, with the very latest appliances, when they have only the most primitive methods for catching fish. The Russians have offered arbitration on this point, and we consider the matter can be settled by negotiation. If little, weak, Norway can come to an arrangement with Russia on this very same question, surely to goodness this great Empire, if we only had a sane and suitable foreign policy, could come to an arrangement as well—

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. and gallant Gentleman, but I must ask him to look at the clock.

I beg your pardon, I was led away; I only want to ask one question, and then I will sit down. May I ask the Government—

On a point of Order. Is there anything in the Standing Orders of this House which obliges Members to to look at the clock?

May I ask whether arrangements entered into by private Members affect other Members in this House, and whether, when such arrangements are entered into from time to time, other Members should be consulted?

This particular arrangement only affects the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull.

Is it not possible to call the hon. Gentleman's attention in some other way? This is an entirely new precedent.

I was only calling the hon. Gentleman's attention in a friendly way.

I only want to ask one question. May we ask, in the event of a contract being entered into, whether some notice will be given before this question of the trade agreement is brought to an end?

I shall shorten my remarks to give the President of the Board of Trade some time to reply. I agree with the hon. Member (Sir Alan Smith) that, within limits, the speech of the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has relieved our minds on this side of the Committee. He said that we in our attitude had not taken the proper perspective, and that, in the view of the Government, war over matters of this sort would be horrible. We are very glad to hear that. When he went on to say that Lord Curzon was going to meet a representative of the Moscow Government —well, we thought that was better still. However, there still remain in our minds a wonder and regret that the Note had been sent by the Cabinet at all. It is a good thing that the Note had not been sent before the War to Russia, because an ultimatum was an ultimatum in those days. It is quite true that, in this case, as the Under-Secretary says, it is not a case of going to war with Russia, even if the trade delegation should be withdrawn. No, but it is a case of a quarrel with Russia; it is a case of taking one step back on an old roa3, which began in war and which, if we begin to retrace, will end in war. That is what we are afraid of. We do not suppose that, if the Russian Delegation left London to-morrow, it would be war at once; we do say that, just as that solution will not result in the settling of any one of the questions raised in the Note, all the new questions that arise would be even more difficult of solution than they are now at the present time, when there is a trade delegation. At least that is one thing that keeps us in touch with Russia. If we are in a better position now than yesterday with regard to Russia, I want the Committee to realise that this is not the fault of our Government. It is because Russia is unwilling to quarrel. [ Interruption. ] Certainly; Russia is exhausted by war, by civil war and by famine. Over and over again the rulers of Russia in the last year or two have been saying—I quote one thing said by one of the most extreme of them, Karl Radek—that the only peace for Russia is one that will give her ploughs and locomotives. We here are protesting against the dropping of the Trade Agreement because of the condition of our people, but it is more important to the Russian people than to ourselves.

That is why, in the view of a good many of us here, the most serious allegations in the Note, about political propaganda, ought to be treated with very great reserve. Here you have persistent declarations on the part of the Russians of their anxiety for peace. We are told that the facts as they are in the Note have been discovered from the wireless. Have not some of them come from spies, the most exaggerated form of spy, namely, a political enemy in a civil war? We have had a good many of these allegations in the past which have been proved to be inaccurate, and if this thing is going further, and if there is not going to be a settlement, I think what we on this side of the Committee would like is this, that these alleged facts against the Russian Government should be published to the House of Commons, because it is, after all, we who have to make the- decision and not Lord Curzon. To be perfectly frank, a very large number of people in this House—well, do not trust Lord Curzon's judgment. I dare say some hon. Gentlemen do. But a large number of people in the country do not, and therefore we ask for a full publication. The real difficulty of the situation, as some of us see it, is that Lord Curzon and the Government do not want to deal with the Russian Government in the ordinary way. None of these questions are worth quarrelling over, or worth war, but all of them need very careful discussion by ambassadors or plenipotentaries. The difficulty is that we have not discussed these questions through ordinary channels, and what pleases us at this moment to-day is that at last there is a hope of two of the really responsible people meeting each other and discussing the situation.

I am perfectly aware that there are many who would like a quarrel with Russia, and who would not much mind it, but there is another section of hon. Gentlemen opposite whom I sometimes meet upstairs in the Committee representing the League of Nations Union, I cannot help thinking, when they are discussing this question of the trawlers, they must realise that if the League of Nations or arbitration or conciliation, or Government of the world by law in future is to remain, this is the kind of thing which ought to be the subject of conciliation and arbitration. The one trouble which I feel, as a Britisher, is that it is the Russians, and not we, who are asking to have this submitted to arbitration. Whatever we may think of the Soviet Government, at least in that respect I believe in their bona fides , because they have discussed this same question with the Norwegians, and come to an arrangement with them, by which the Norwegians have secured, within the 12 miles limit, fishing rights of a limited character. Yet, owing to their attitude, our Government hitherto have not discussed it with the Russian Government. Of course, we sympathise with our trawlers, but the. real people our trawlers ought to blame are the Government who have refused to take, in regard to them, the step which the Norwegian Government have taken with regard to their trawlers.

I ask hon. Gentlemen who care about the new way of running the world by the League of Nations whether they really think that under a new system, in which the nations of the world are going to work together, we are really going to scrutinise and condemn the decency or fairness of the internal affairs of other countries. If so, are we ever going to be able to get forward if that is the kind of spirit in which we approach each other? I am not an apologist for what has been happening in the matter of religion in Russia. I have criticised it as many people have. I have regarded the execution of the Archibishop as, at any rate, a vindictive act, because it was for an offence alleged to have been committed two years ago. Personally I think it a very unwise and vindictive act, but there are also other facts with regard to religion in Russia. There is not only what they have done wrong, but what, after all, they are doing right. They have nationalised church property. But all the churches are open, and worship is positively freer in Russia to-day than it was under the Czars for the non-orthodox denominations. All the religions in Russia may now hold processions in the street.

Hon. Gentlemen who look forward to friendly arrangements between Countries should realise where the doctrine of interference will take us. One section of the House has a feeling of indignation, and if you like, of just indignation, at the execution of the Russian bishop and the confiscation of church property in Russia.

There is another section in this House, which is equally justly indignant at the killing, not of single priests, but of hundreds of working men by fascisti, and the destruction of labour clubs and co-operative societies. I hope that if there were a Labour Government that action on the part of the Fascisti, and the leaders of the Fascisti sanctioning it, would not be a reason for refusing to recognise Mussolini. Do we not realise that every nation has to work out its own salvation: as my Scottish Friends say, must "drie its ain wierd "? I hope sincerely that this storm will pass. We hope that what the Under-Secretary of State has said may be the beginning of a new situation. We moved this Motion in the hope that something of the kind might be done. He has said that Lord Curzon will meet M. Krassin, and will put forward the evidence against the Moscow Government and discuss it, and that the British Government would withdraw the 10 days' limit. [HON. MEMBERS:" No."] He said something to that effect. [HON. MEMBERS: "No. '] Perhaps the next spokesman for the Government will make that clear. We understand that the 10 days' limit was, for the time being, at any rate, being withdrawn. Under these circumstances, the first stage of our objective has been reached. We hope that it is the beginning of a wiser course. We have obtained the first thing for which we put down this Motion. Therefore, my hon. Friend does not propose to divide the Committee. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh ! "] When we get the first stage of what we want, we are not going to divide and pretend that we have not got anything. We reserve our power and opportunity of intervention, and if the Government mean to break with Russia, we shall renew our criticism.

It is important, in arriving at a decision on the grave matters which have been debated to-night, that it should be made quite clear what is the action which the Government has taken and what is the course which it intends to pursue. My hon. Friend, at the end of his speech, said that if M. Krassin sought an interview with the Secretary of State, that interview would certainly be accorded, and that he would go through the Note with M. Krassin, but he made it perfectly clear that in all the essential respects set out in the Note to Russia we should require satisfaction. If, as I sincerely hope will be the case, M. Krassin holds out hopes that satisfaction will be given to His Majesty's Government in the matter, and desires to get further instructions from Moscow, then the time limit in our Note will be extended, but I wish to make it perfectly clear, because I think the decision will be taken upon this to-night, that of all the points which are set out in the Note which His Majesty's Government sent to the Soviet Government, we stand by the requirement that our essential conditions should be satisfied. In order to appreciate the position and to form a correct decision as to whether the action which we have taken, and the course which we propose to pursue are right, I think it is important that the Committee should realise what are the conditions under which the Trade Agreement was made, what were the provisions of the Trade Agreement itself, and what are the events which have taken place in connection with the Trade Agreement. I find myself in agreement in one respect with what the Leader of the Opposition said. It is true, that when the Trade Agreement was made, it was hoped that it would be a step to further relations and to complete settlement with Russia, but it was also made abundantly clear, both at the time the Agreement was discussed in the House, and in the subsequent discussions on it, that the only way in which a final settlement could be obtained was by the Russian Government accepting those essential conditions by which alone their country could be restored, and by which alone she could come into the comity of nations and restore confidence and credit. Repeatedly this was urged, and not least by the late Prime Minister himself. When he was speaking on the subject of The Hague Conference he said it was fantastic to talk about de jure recognition and that the time for de jure recognition would come when Russia had not only made promises but when Russia had carried out her promises; when Russia had appreciated that if she was to bring —what was essential to her salvation— if she was to bring Western enterprise, Western initiative, and Western capital to her assistance, she must accept those conditions on which alone that assistance could be given. Unless those conditions could be obtained it was quite obvious that the amount of trade that could be done under the Trade Agreement would be of a very small character. The second point which the Committee should bear in mind is that under the Trade Agreement itself it was specifically provided that all propaganda and all intrigue against British Government, British institutions, and British interests should cease. It was made a condition of the Trade Agreement and it is set out in the Preamble that the condition on which the Agreement is made is that their propaganda should cease and propaganda is denned:

"The term ' conducting any official propaganda ' includes the giving by either party of assistance or encouragement in propaganda conducted outside its own borders."

Moreover, in the Trade Agreement is contained a specific provision in Article 13 that if either party break that condition against propaganda the other party should be at liberty at once to denounce the Trade Agreement and it should come to an end.

Not at once, but after a reasonable opportunity had been given for discussion. That is the effect of Article 13.

It is perfectly plain.

"Provided also that in the event of the infringement by either party at any time of any of the provisions of this Agreement or of the conditions referred to in the Preamble the other party shall immediately be free from the obligations of the Agreement. Nevertheless it is agreed that before taking any action inconsistent with the Agreement, the aggrieved party shall give the other party a reasonable opportunity of furnishing an explanation."—

[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear ! "] I have got a great deal of ground to cover, and it is important—

If the hon. Member does not wish to hear the official reply, he need not wait, but I am here to say that, having regard to the events of the past two years, having regard to the fact that instance after instance of propaganda, which we have proved up to the hilt, upon which we stand as a Government, has taken place, the opportunity which we have given for satisfaction to be given us is ample in the circumstances. Moreover, not only was that a condition expressly inserted in the Trade Agreement itself, but at the time the Agreement was signed my right hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home) handed a letter to M. Krassin in which he set out the particulars of the propaganda.

Propaganda which was being conducted and which the Russian Government solemnly undertook and covenanted to stop. [HON. MEMBERS: "What propaganda? "] In Afghanistan, in India. The whole of the letter has been published, and all hon. Members opposite are perfectly well acquainted with what that propaganda is. It stated that the Government must insist, as an essential corollary to the conclusion of the Trade Agreement between the two Governments, that the propaganda must cease.

If the right hon. Gentleman does not give way, it is no use the hon. Member persisting.

I was going to ask—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order ! "] Very well, I will remember that.

I really have not time to give way. Those are the circumstances in which the Trade Agreement was entered into. The right hon. Member for the Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) said, "What is the way to put an end to this propaganda? "

The way to put an end to this propaganda is to make an agreement—

On a point of Order. Do you allow arguments to be made against me all night, and then never give any chance to answer, like the bourgeois you are? [HON. MEMBERS: "Name!" and "Order ! "]

If the hon. Member continues to make that sort of remark in this House, I must ask him to leave the House.

On a point of Order. Is the term " bourgeois "an unparliamentary expression? I do not know that that name has yet been placed on the Parliamentary index expurgatorius.

What I said was that if the hon. Member did not withdraw the word he had used, he must leave the House.

On a point of Order. Before an hon. Member is asked to leave the Chamber, is he not given an opportunity to withdraw anything he may have said, or done, that is in conflict with the order, procedure, or the custom of this House?

As a rule that is the case when an hon. Member does not persist in disobeying the ruling of the Chair. If an hon. Member persists in disobeying the ruling of the Chair, then it is for the Chair to decide.

The hon. Member for Motherwell got up several times before to try to put a question, and before he was asked to leave the House. Why, might I ask, did you not take the ordinary step of acquainting the hon. Member with what he has done that is in conflict with the custom of this House—what was his breach of Parliamentary etiquette?

I asked the hon. Member for Motherwell to with draw from the House. He has not withdrawn from the House, and I must now ask the Sergeant at Arms to remove him.

It is not, I submit, within the prerogative of the Chairman of this House to ask the Sergeant at Arms to remove any Member. That is the prerogative of the Speaker. Before you can ask an ordinary Member to leave this House, you must summon the Speaker and report the incident to him. May I ask for your ruling on that point?

My ruling was given under Standing Order No. 20; I must ask the Sergeant at Arms to remove the hon. Member.

advanced to the hon. Member for Motherwell, and requested him to retire.

I am here in the name of the Communist International!

THE DEPUTY-SERGEANT AT ARMS reported that he had asked the hon. Member to retire, and that he refused to-withdraw without force.

I have, with regret, to inform you, Mr. Speaker, that under Standing Order No. 20, I have had to name the hon. Member for the Motherwell Division of Lanarkshire for persistently disregarding the authority of the Chair, and that, when called upon to withdraw from the House for the remainder of the sitting, the hon. Member refused to do so.

I beg to move, "That Mr. Newbold, the Member for the Motherwell Division of Lanarkshire, be suspended from the service of the House."

The hon. Member for Motherwell uttered a certain expression. He was not given an opportunity of withdrawing that expression by the Deputy-Chairman. He was requested— instead of being asked to withdraw his statement—to withdraw from the House, and I put it to you now, Mr. Speaker, whether it is not within your power as the Speaker to give the hon. Member for Motherwell that opportunity if he desires to take advantage of it.

Under the Standing Order, I have no option. No doubt at a later stage, should the hon. Member make that request, the House will take it into account, but I have no option now except to name the hon. Member.

This is most unfair. This man never even got a show. I will not let even one man be done in like that. I do not belong to the same party as the hon. Member for Motherwell, who has been named. It seems to me that our chivalry, if nothing else—

Under the Standing Order, this point cannot be debated. It is for the House to take into consideration at a later stage any such matter as the hon. Member has just raised. The House is never hard in these matters.

On a point of Order. I do not know the Rules of this House sufficiently well, but it seems to me that there is in your discretion some method by which a Member who has been subjected to covert insult from the beginning of this Debate to-day, without an opportunity of replying, and who resents, naturally, the insult that has been thrown at him directly and indirectly all through the Debate— surely there is some means by which the common decency of this House, and, I am sure, the common feeling of this House, can operate to prevent his being subjected to this indignity.

An hon. Member, whatever may be the circumstances, must obey the authority of the Chair. I am bound, at the present stage, by the Standing Order, to put the Question on the Motion which has been moved by the Leader of the House.

May I ask you whether the Rules are such that you, mechanically, must proceed at once to put into effect the Motion made by the Leader of the House, or whether it is possible for you to allow the Member whom you have named to make any explanation, or to withdraw what he said while the House was in Committee?

Standing Order No. 18 (1) says:

"Whenever any Member shall have been named by the Speaker, or by the Chairman of a Committee of the whole House, immediately after the commission of the offence of disregarding the authority of the Chair . . . . the Speaker shall forthwith put the Question, on a Motion being made, no Amendment, Adjournment or Debate being allowed, ' That such Member be suspended from the service of the House; ' and if the offence has been committed in a Committee of the whole House, the Chairman shall forthwith suspend the proceedings of the Committee and report the circumstances to the House; and the Speaker shall, on a Motion being made, thereupon put the same Question, without Amendment. Adjournment or Debate, as if the offence had been committed in the House itself."

It seems to me that that Standing Order leaves me no option.

May I ask you whether the expression which you read, namely, "disregarding the authority of the Chair," can be considered by you at all upon any explanation, as, for instance, that the hon. Member had no opportunity given to him of withdrawing what he had said?

I had no opportunity of knowing what occurred in Committee, but it seems to me that some little disorder arose. If the hon. Member wishes to withdraw what he said, I think the House will take the exceptional course—

If any Member of the House takes that view, I am bound to proceed according to the Standing Order. I would point out that it will be open to the hon. Member to-morrow to make any submission to me, which I would read to the House, and the House always, in such cases, takes a considerable and generous view of any such submission.

On a point of Order. May I ask whether you regard the discordant noises which we have just heard from the other side as the point of view of hon. Members?

May I raise this point. There was a very similar instance some years ago in which Mr. Speaker Lowther overruled the decision of the Chairman. Cannot you regard that instance as a precedent in the present case?

No such instance as that has arisen. The Speaker has no option when called into a Committee, but to take the report the Chairman has made.

Do I understand from you that the hon. Member for Motherwell was given by you the opportunity of withdrawing the expression, which he had not previously had, and because a certain objection was taken by the hon. Member for Altrincham (Sir G. Hamilton) and other hon. Members that he is even now not to have the opportunity of withdrawing?

As I have said before, I am bound by the Rules which the House has made, and embodied in its Standing Orders. I must act according to those Rules.

I want to ask whether, when any Deputy-Chairman at any time makes a mistake, the House has to abide by that mistake?

The Committee and the House must respect and obey the authority of the Chairman for the time being.

I wish to ask you a question as to whether there is any precedent for an hon. Member of this House being called upon to withdraw from the House, after making a disorderly observation, without himself having the opportunity, in the first instance, to withdraw that disorderly observation?

I cannot deal with what happened in Committee. I am clearly bound by the Rules to put the Question.

Is there a way out here? The Chairman did not name the hon. Member for Motherwell. He simply directed him to withdraw. He thereupon had the Mace put upon the Table. You then resumed your seat, and it is upon you the duty falls of naming him. I submit to you that, inasmuch as you are called upon to name him, you can name him for the offence of disregarding the authority of the Chair. I further submit if he is willing to show he is not anxious to disregard your authority, it may be possible not to have him named.

If the Mace be put on the Table, and the Speaker be called in,; the Speaker is bound to act upon the report of the Chairman.

Question put, "That Mr. Newbold, the Member for the Motherwell Division of Lanarkshire, be suspended from the service of the House."

The House divided: Ayes, 300; Noes, 88.

Division No. 150.]

AYES.

[10.55 p.m.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Ainsworth, Captain Charles

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

Barnston, Major Harry

Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury

Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Bruford, R.

Apsley, Lord

Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Berry, Sir George

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

Betterton, Henry B.

Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

Bird, Sir W. B. M. (Chichester)

Butcher, Sir John George

Austin, Sir Herbert

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

Blundell, F. N.

Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Button, H. S.

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Brass, Captain W.

Cadogan, Major Edward

Banks, Mitchell

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Cassels, J. D.

Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

Peto, Basil E.

Cautley, Henry Strother

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Hiley, Sir Ernest

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Hinds, John

Price, E. G.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Privett, F. J.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Chapman, Sir S.

Hohier, Gerald Fitzroy

Raine, W.

Clarke, Sir E. C.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Rankin, Captain James Stuart

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Hood, Sir Joseph

Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peet

Clarry, Reginald George

Hopkins, John W. W.

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warringion)

Clayton, G. C.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Remer, J. R.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Houfton, John Plowright

Rentoul, G. S.

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

Reynolds, W. G. W.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Hudson, Capt. A.

Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Hume, G. H.

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Cope, Major William

Hume Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall)

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

Hurd, Percy A.

Robertson-Despencer, Major(Isl'gt'nW)

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stratford)

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

Rothschild, Lionel de

Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North)

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Russell, Alexander West-(Tynemouth)

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Jarrett, G. W. S.

Russell, William (Bolton)

Davies, David (Montgomery)

Jephcott, A. R.

Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Dawson, Sir Philip

Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Sandon, Lord

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Lamb, J. Q.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustavo D.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Ellis, R. G.

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Shepperson, E. W.

England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Singleton, J. E.

Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

Skelton, A. N.

Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

Lorden, John William

Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

Lorlmer, H. D.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

Lort-Williams, J.

Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furn'ss)

Eyres-Monsall, Com. Bolton M.

Lougher, L.

Sparkes, H. W.

Falcon, Captain Michael

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

Stanley, Lord

Fawkes, Major F. H.

M'Connell, Thomas E.

Steel, Major S. Strang

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

Foreman, Sir Henry

Maltland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

Forestier-Walker, L.

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Malone, Major B. P. (Tottenham, S.)

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Manville, Edward

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Frece, Sir Walter de

Margesson, H. D. R.

Sugden, Sir Wilfred H.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Furness, G. J.

Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Mercer, Colonel H.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Ganzoni, Sir John

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Garland, C. S.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Thorpe, Captain John Henry

Gates, Percy

Molloy, Major L. G. S.

Tryon. Rt. Hon. George Clement

Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

Molson, Major John Elsdale

Tubbs, S. W.

George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Goff, Sir R. Park

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Gould, James C.

Morden, Col. W. Grant

Wallace, Captain E.

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

Greaves-Lord, Walter

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Murchison, C. K.

Wells, S. R.

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Nail, Major Joseph

Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

Gretton, Colonel John

Nesbitt, Robert C.

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Whitla, Sir William

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

Willey, Arthur

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J.(Westminster)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l,W.D'by)

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Wise, Frederick

Halstead, Major D.

Nield, Sir Herbert

Wolmer, Viscount

Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill-(High Peak)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Paget, T. G.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Harney, E. A.

Parker, Owen (Kettering)

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Harrison, F. C.

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Yerburgh, R. D. T.

Harvey, Major S. E.

Penny, Frederick George

Hawke, John Anthony

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Perring, William George

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

NOES.

Adams, D.

Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

Richards, R.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring.

Ammon, Charles George

Herriotts, J.

Ritson, J.

Attlee, C. R.

Hill, A.

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Batey, Joseph

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Royce, William Stapleton

Bonwick, A.

Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

Saklatvala, S.

Bowdler, W. A.

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Salter, Dr. A.

Briant, Frank

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Scrymgeour, E.

Broad, F. A.

Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

Shinwell, Emanuel

Brotherton, J.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Burgess, S.

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Simpson, J. Hope

Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

Lawson, John James

Smith, T. (Pontefract)

Cairns, John

Leach, W.

Snell, Harry

Chapple, W. A.

Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

Spoor, B. G.

Charleton, H. C.

Lunn, William

Stephen, Campbell

Collison, Levi

M'Entee, V. L.

Sullivan, J.

Darbishire, C. W.

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Warne, G. H.

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Maxton, James

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Morel, E. D.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Westwood, J.

Dudgeon, Major C. R.

Murnin, H.

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Duncan, C.

Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

Whiteley, W.

Ede, James Chuter

Nichol, Robert

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

O'Grady, Captain James

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Oliver, George Harold

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Foot, Isaac

Paling, W.

Wright, W.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Harbord, Arthur

Potts, John S.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Hardle, George D.

Pringle, W. M. R.

Mr. Lansbury and Mr. Buchanan.

Hartshorn, Vernon

In accordance with the decision of the House, I must ask the hon. Member for the Motherwell Division of Lanarkshire to withdraw.

Having regard to the unfailing courtesy with which you, Mr. Speaker, have always treated me, I shall withdraw.

The hon. Member for Motherwell withdrew accordingly from the House.

Supply

Again considered in Committee.

[Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]

Question again proposed,

"That a sum not exceeding £113,607 be granted for the said Service."

It being after Eleven of the Clock, and objection being taken to further Proceeding, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Mercantile Marine

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [ Colonel Leslie Wilson. ]

I venture to submit to the House certain questions relating to the employment of men in the Mercantile Marine and to direct attention to certain difficulties which have arisen in this connection. Obviously, the time at my disposal is very limited, and the matter cannot be discussed minutely, so I propose to confine myself to certain submissions and offer a few explanations which the representative of the Board of Trade can appreciate. The engagement of seamen is a question which, in my judgment, affects the Mercantile Marine Department of the Board of Trade. Usually, when a seaman is employed he proceeds to a vessel and offers his services to the officer in charge. If his discharge book showing his sea service is deemed satisfactory, he is provisionally engaged. Recently, however, as a result of a decision of certain parties on the National Maritime Board, the officer provides the man with a form which he is expected to take to the offices of the Shipping Federation and the Sailors' and Firemen's Union. If he is not a member of the latter body, he is refused employment, but an entrance fee of £2 if his form is stamped, will ensure him employ- ment on the vessel. The effect of this is to prevent a large body of seamen, who refuse to accept this agreement and who claim they were no parties to it, from obtaining employment. There have been many cases of victimisation in all parts of the United Kingdom. Indeed, the complaints now run into thousands.

Perhaps I may submit one or two cases which are typical of many others. A cook was engaged by the master of a vessel in London. He refused to, pay a part entrance fee of 10s. owing to the fact that he had not the ready money in his possession. It was taken from his wages at the end of the voyage. That in my judgment is an irregularity. It has already been brought to the notice of the Noble Lord's Department. Then there is a case in Cardiff. A man was prohibited from signing on the s.s. "Lauriston." He was engaged by the chief officer, but, applying the agreement I have referred to, they refused to stamp the man's form. He then approached the Lord Mayor of Cardiff, who agreed to stand security for the man to the amount of two guineas, but, despite this, the man was refused employment. That is a most extraordinary position. Then there were five men in Southampton who had been in one vessel for periods ranging from 10 months to 14 years and they were refused permission by the National Union of Sailors and. Firemen's delegates to sign on although the captain wanted them. The Shipping Federation official along with the officials of the other organisation stood at the Mercantile Marine offices and refused to allow the men to sign unless they paid the £2, and as they could not pay the money they lost the employment. There was another case in London, where a man was dismissed from his ship because he was unable to get the form referred to, not having the £2 in his possession. He had been idle for six months before he managed to secure this provisional engagement, but he was unable to comply with the demand made, and he lost his job. There was another case in Manchester of a fireman who was engaged by a second engineer. He was unable to pay the entrance fee, and he lost his employment. I have a whole bundle of copies of letters which have been received in connection with this matter.

It may be urged by the Noble Lord that his Department is neutral in this matter, and has no responsibility; but I submit that the Mercantile Marine Department of the Board of Trade was established, amongst other things, for the purpose of protecting the interests of seamen from the moment of engagement until discharge. Consequently the Board of Trade is the proper Department to which appeal must be made. The Noble Lord will remember that, in reply to questions, he alleged that the trouble was due to a dispute between the unions; to which I would reply that the dispute between the unions, if it exists, is a matter with which the unions themselves can deal, but the agreement which gives rise to victimisation is one for which the Shipping Federation is mainly responsible. It is a distinct violation of the customary method of engaging seamen.

Moreover, the Noble Lord has urged, in reply to questions, that no complaint has been received by his Department regarding the matter. I do not understand that, for innumerable deputations have been sent to officials representing the Mercantile Marine Department of the Board of Trade, and largely signed petitions have been forwarded to the late and the present President of the Board of Trade and to many Members of this House, and in addition there have been disturbances at nearly all ports in the United Kingdom. Local officers of both the Shipping Federation and the National Sailor's and Firemen's Union have been attacked, and in some cases windows have been broken. Officials of both these unions who sought to prevent men obtaining employment have been assaulted.

There is at present a case proceeding at Liverpool, the merits of which I cannot discuss because it is sub judice. It is a case in which a seaman alleges that he was being denied employment, although the officer of the vessel was prepared to give him employment, and there was an attack on a union official, who is now in hospital. The Board of Trade cannot stand idly by and permit such a state of affairs to continue. In face of these facts the Noble Lord cannot urge that his Department has no responsibility. It may be that he may urge that an agreement between employers and a trade union organisation is a matter over which he has no control. To that I reply, that while I have no objection to such agreements, but rather welcome agreements between employers' organisations, or individual employers and trade union organisations, any understanding or agreement which has the effect of preventing men from obtaining employment at their regular occupation, unless on conditions which are not imposed in any other industry, is a matter which must receive the attention of his Department, which is regarded, quite properly, as the custodian of shipping interests.

Finally, I desire that the Board of Trade should institute an inquiry into the whole matter. If necessary, the parties concerned should be invited to meet the President of the Board of Trade with a view to finding a way out of the difficulty. That is not too much to ask. In the interests of seamen throughout the United Kingdom, I would urge the Noble Lord to give an assurance to the House that the whole subject will receive his immediate attention. Other hon. Members are very anxious briefly to associate themselves with me in making these representations. I do not approach the question in any spirit hostile to the Board of Trade, but I assure the Noble Lord that there is very much dissatisfaction amongst seamen. Much of it is not vocal. Even shipowners whom I have approached, including hon. Members of this House, have assured me that they never intended that the agreement, which was reached to some extent with their consent, would have the effect indicated. I hope that the Noble Lord will consider my representations sympathetically.

On a point of Order. I have been limited in time and I am very anxious to have a reply from the Noble Lord. I hope I am not to be prevented from having it?

I am not going to stand between the hon. Member and the Noble Lord, but if he makes these statements, surely I have the right to put the other side of the case? I do so more especially because the name of the Shipping Federation has been dragged in. For 21 years I was chairman of the Glasgow District Branch of the Federa- tion, and I know something of the hon. Member's career during part of that time. I sit here and hear what hon. Members on the other side have to say and I hope they will extend to me the same courtesy. This is purely a question of a dispute between two trade unions. [HON. MEMBERS: "No! "] Why is it that Members on the other side will never allow an argument from this side? Are they trying to shorten the proceedings by this method?

After your exhibition this evening with Mr. Newbold, you have no right to talk like that.

This is a dispute between two unions. I think the Board of Trade would be well advised to keep out of it. What has happened here? For many years there was only one union, known as the National Seamen and Firemen's Union, of which the President is Mr. Havelook Wilson. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nothing of the sort."] In course of time there arose a rival union called the Seafarers' Union. During the War, Sir Joseph Maclay, as he then was, set up the National Maritime Board to settle the question between the shipowners and all other branches of the seafaring community. We were quite anxious that both these seamens' unions should become members of the National Union, but the head of each of them said, "If the other union sits here we will not."

It has all to do with the case. The whole point is that it is not the shipowners who are doing this, but the two unions who are acting against each other. The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Shinwell) practised in Glasgow for years the very policy that he is finding fault with Mr. Havelock Wilson for pursuing now. He had Glasgow so much in his power that there was almost no member of the Seamen's and Firemen's Union who could get to sea while his régime lasted.

If I had opportunity to do so I could riddle the whole statement made from the other side. But I am going to defer to the wishes of the rest of the Members and am not going to pursue the subject any further, except to say that an entirely ex parte statement has been made. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Trade will set his face against interfering with this internecine quarrel between two unions.

I am sorry that there has not been more time to discuss this question. I think hon. Members opposite are wholly unjustified in not allowing the hon. Member who has just sat down to state the other side of the case in reply to the hon. Member for Linlithgow. What I have to say on this matter on behalf of the Board of Trade is that it is a matter iii which the Board of Trade should not— [ Interruption ]—

I am acting in the interests of thousands of seamen in this country. It is gross victimisation, and I will not stand this. The Noble Lord is very unfair.

So far I have said nothing, except that it was perhaps advisable to hear both sides before arriving at a decision.

If hon. Members do not wish to hear any argument that falls from this side, it is impossible for us to make our statements in reply to their speeches. All I have to say on this point is, that this is not a matter, in the opinion of the Board of Trade, in which they could usefully or legitimately interfere.

The shipowners have a perfect right to make any agreement that is legal with any trade union that they like, and if the shipowners of this country have chosen to make an agreement with the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union and not with the union that the hon. Member represents—

I cannot give way to the hon. Member. I have been allowed very little time as it is. As long as the law is not broken, the Board of Trade is not entitled to interfere. The hon. Member is raising a very big question indeed when he is asking a Government Department to interfere in an agreement between owners and a trade union. If the shipowners choose to employ men belonging to a certain union, they have a perfect right to do so, and as long as there is no breach of the law the Board of Trade would not be entitled, and indeed has not got the power, to interfere. The hon. Member asks for an inquiry, but there is no dispute as to the facts. They are perfectly plain sailing, and the duty of the Board of Trade, in the circumstances, is to see that the law is not broken and to hold the scales evenly between the two parties.

It being Half-past Eleven of the Clock , Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Half after Eleven o'Clock.