House of Commons
Tuesday, May 29, 1923
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
PRIVATE BILLS [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with).
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:
Wakefield Corporation Bill [ Lords ].
Morley Corporation Bill [ Lords ].
South Elmsall and District Gas Bill [ Lards ].
Great Western Railway (Additional Powers) Bill [ Lords ].
Caledonian Insurance Company Bill [ Lords ].
West Gloucestershire Water Bill [ Lords ].
Chelmsford Corporation Bill [ Lords ].
Bills to be read a Second time.
Smethwick Corporation (Gas) Bill [ Lords ],
Read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.
London Electric Railway Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
London County Council (Money) Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Thursday, at quarter past Eight of the Clock.
Oyster and Mussel Fishery (Seasalter and Ham) Provisional Order Bill,
Third Reading deferred till Thursday.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Steel Ship Plates (Corrosion)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what measure of decay in the plates of a steel ship due to rust or other causes is necessary before the Board of Trade authorities pronounce the same as unfit for use?
The amount of deterioration permissible in steel ship plates through rust or other causes before they are pronounced unfit for use, depends upon such a variety of circumstances, such as the size and proportions of the vessel, the nature of the intended voyage, whether the deterioration is local or is widespread, the position of the plates in the ship, their structural function, and their original thickness, that the Board of Trade have not found it possible to lay down any hard-and-fast rules on the subject for the guidance of their surveyors.
Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to put on a scale so that adjustments can be made whether the plates are ⅝ in. or ¾ in., and in whatever position the plates may be?
No, Sir. The reasons I have given in the rather full answer show that the variety of circumstances is so great that the surveyors can do their work best without such a hard-and-fast rule.
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether or not he will take steps to have a scale in which the original thickness of the plate being given, a certain amount of corrosion caused by the water or anything else will determine when that plate is put out of use? Will the right hon. Gentleman investigate that, and see whether, no matter what the position of the plate may be in the ship, if it suffers from corrosion in any way, and whether it be at the top or the bottom, is dangerous?
No, Sir. It makes all the difference where the plate is. I have gone into this matter very carefully. It is quite obvious that what is a small amount of corrosion in one case requires repair, and what is a large amount of corrosion in another case may be much less dangerous. I am sure that the existing practice of the surveyors, who are most careful in their work, is quite satisfactory.
Arising out of that—
The hon. Member had better put down further questions.
Trade and Commerce
Dyestuffs
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the seizure of dye works in the occupied territory of Germany by the French has had any effect on the delivery of reparation dyes to this country?
His Majesty's Government have taken such action as appeared desirable to avoid interruption of delivery of reparation dyes. Satisfactory assurances have been given by the French Government, and facilities accorded on the spot by the French authorities.
Would the right hon. Gentleman kindly answer the question? Has there been any effect on the delivery of dyes to this country?
I can add this to the answer: One of our representatives visited the dye works and had every facility for identifying parcels of dyes destined for this country.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question on the Paper? Are any dyes coming to this country or not?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is not a single works in this country which is in want of dyes at the present moment?
I believe what the hon. and gallant Gentleman has just said is substantially true; but I cannot speak as to the exact interruption that has taken place—and a great deal of interruption and delay has taken place— in the delivery of the dyes. What I thought the hon. and gallant Gentleman wished to know was whether we were taking every effective step to facilitate and to ensure delivery.
Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether I may ask another question, but the question on the paper is whether the French occupation has affected the delivery, and we have had no answer to that?
The answer I have given is clear, that is, "No.' The French have given us every facility for collecting the parcels of dyes.
asked the President of the Board of Trade what was the value of dyestuffs imported and produced in the United Kingdom, respectively, in 1914; and what were the corresponding figures for 1922?
As the answer to this question is somewhat long, I will, with the permission of my hon. Friend, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer supplied:
The following statement gives the desired information, so far as it is available, but in view of the fact that the trade of 1914 was affected by the War, particulars as to imports in 1918 are also included. There have been great changes in the level of prices, and the imports of 1913 included a much larger proportion of the lower valued dyes than those of 1922.
Quantities and values of dyes and dyestuffs obtained from coal tar imported into the United Kingdom during the years 1913, 1914 and 1922:
Cwts. £ 1913 367,884 1,892,055 1914 240,156 1,291,430 1922 57,591 1,326,174
No precise data as to the production in 1913 and 1914 in the United Kingdom of dyes and dyestuffs derived from coal tar are available, but it is estimated that in 1913 it did not exceed about 50,000 cwt., and was largely from imported intermediates; the total value was probably lees than £200,000. In 1922 the total British production, which owing to the general trade depression was much below the capacity of the British makers, amounted to 180,000 cwt., and was entirely from intermediates produced in this country: the approximate value was £3,000,000. The above statement of imports does not include natural indigo and natural extracts for dyeing.
Exports to Russia
asked the President of the Board of Trade what was the value of British goods exported in 1922 to Finland, Lithuania, Latvia, and Esthonia per head of the aggregate population of these former Russian territories; and what was the corresponding figure for British exports to Soviet Russia?
A number of figures are given in the reply, and perhaps my hon. Friend will permit me to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The answer is as follows:
The values of exports, in the year 1922, of United Kingdom produce and manufacture, consigned to the countries specified, per head of the populations of those countries, were as follows. The statistics of population on which these figures are calculated are the latest returns or estimates available, the dates to which such returns or estimates relate being indicated in each case:
s. d. Finland (December, 1920) 16 5·6 Lithuania (1921 estimate) — 5·5 Latvia (January, 1922) 11 9·8 Esthonia (1921 estimate) 11 11·5
Sugar (World Production)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what was the world production of beet sugar and cane sugar, respectively, in 1913 and 1922, respectively?
This answer also contains a number of figures; and, if my hon. Friend will permit me, I will have it circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
Statistics compiled by the United States Department of Agriculture show the world production of cane sugar and of beet sugar as follows:
Cane sugar. Beet sugar. Tons of 2,000 lbs. Tons of 2,000 lbs. Average of the years— 1909–1913 9,971,000 8,432,000 1914 11,293,000 8,331,000 1922, latest estimates 14,735,000 5,707,000
Directly comparable figures for the year 1913 are not available to me.
Is all possible being done to encourage the production of beet sugar in this country?
War Bond Policies
asked the President of the Board of Trade with reference to the so-called war bond policies, if he proposes to take any action to deal with this question, having regard to the very many policies that are lapsing and the admittedly onerous terms under which so many of them were taken out during the War, especially in view of the fact that the Industrial Assurance Act does not come into force until the 1st January, 1924?
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the hardship incurred by many insured persons owing to lapsed war bond policies, he will favourably consider the appointment of a Committee of this House to inquire into the matter?
The Parmoor Committee inquired into the matter of war bond policies and made a recommendation, which is embodied in Clause 30 of the Industrial Assurance Bill which has recently passed this House. That Clause comes into force on the passing of the Act, and not on 1st January, 1924. The questions raised by the hon. Members were fully debated before the Standing Committee and on the Report stage of the Bill, and, having carefully considered that discussion, I do not think that any further action can usefully be taken, either by the appointment of a further Committee or otherwise.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that though nominally this Clause comes into effect at once, there will be no protection for these people till 1st January; does he not think that something should be done in the meantime?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the company in question—
No company has been mentioned!
—is prepared to receive applications in respect of these policies, and to consider them on their merits, and, if necessary, make a reasonable adjustment?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that what has been done has not touched the question of lapsed policies, and is he aware that on the discussion on Report there was a general feeling on both sides of the House that some further inquiry should be made; further, that the Parmoor Committee itself admitted that it had not fully investigated this question—[HON. MEMBERS: "Agreed!"]—and have the Government closed their minds entirely against doing justice to those who are suffering?
I think it is quite obvious from the length of that question that it is impossible to go over again at Question Time the whole of the Debate in Committee and on Report, when the whole position was fully considered, and the Solicitor-General explained exactly why it was practicable to follow certain suggestions made.
I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment to-morrow night.
Smoke Abatement, Woolwich
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the Report of the public control committee of the London County Council, in which it is alleged that serious smoke nuisance occurs at the Royal arsenal and the Royal dockyard, Woolwich, but that these places being Government property, are exempt from the requirements of the Public Health Act, and that the smoke arising in this way is probably the larger factor in creating fog conditions in London; and whether he can state the steps the Government proposes to take?
I have seen the report referred to, and I observe that the arsenal and dockyard are mentioned in it, but I do not find it suggested that they are the larger factor in creating fog conditions in London, and I do not think there is any foundation for such a suggestion. With regard to the last part of the question, the number of boiler houses in use in the factories has been reduced from 47 to 13, which will obviously reduce the volume of smoke, and constant attention is paid to securing the best possible consumption of fuel. The dockyard is not a manufacturing establishment, and I am not aware that any noticeable quantity of smoke comes from it.
Is it not the fact that the London County Council drew attention to the fact that they were not amenable, under the Public Health Act, and that it is this kind of property that produces smoke?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is no question of smoke at all at Woolwich: that there is great clarity of atmosphere there?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman is quite right in saying that the county council did draw attention to the fact that Government establishments do not come within their jurisdiction. I cannot go so far as to say that the smoke from the arsenal is largely responsible for the fogs in London.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he could obtain for these Government works a fuel which gives no smoke, and yet produces the same heat?
I shall be glad to have information on that point.
I will send it on.
British Army
Feltham Depot (Wages)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that a number of men employed at the Deptford stores have been transferred to the stores department at Feltham, Middlesex; that upon transfer their wages have been reduced from 44s. to 41s. per week; that in one case, which is typical of many others, the workman has to pay 7s. 9d. per week in travelling to and from his work, and has to leave home in the morning at six and does not get back until seven at night; whether he will state the reason for the reduction in wages; and whether, especially in view of the extra expense devolving upon the men, he will have the question reconsidered?
When the move of the work of the Deptford depot to Feltham was in prospect, an announcement was made to the effect that such employés as preferred to undertake employment at Feltham instead of taking their discharge would be re-engaged for employment at Feltham at the rates of wages current there. I understand that Feltham is not within the engineering trade London wages area, and I understand that 41s. a week which is at present being paid to the labourers there is fair within the meaning of the Fair Wages Resolution. In accordance, however, with an undertaking given by the War Office last week to a deputation of the workmen, further inquiries are being made as to the rates prevailing amongst private employers in the Feltham district, and I will inform the hon. Member of the result.
Will the hon. Gentleman also appreciate the fact that the payment made in all kinds of transference represents the wages coming down from 44s. to 33s. 3d., and will he note that in his investigation?
I certainly appreciate it. But the hon. Gentleman will realise that the Government cannot increase wages because men come from a certain district. They were given the alternative of working at Feltham if they liked to take it. The Government cannot increase the cost of production to any extent on account of the distance men have to travel.
Is the railway fare taken at all into consideration? I hope the hon. Gentleman will appreciate the fact of wages of 33s. 3d. on transference, in view of the maintenance of a family?
Is the hon. Member aware that many contractors do pay the train fares of these workmen to and from their homes and the place or factory where they work?
We are inquiring into the case; I cannot at present go further than say that we are giving consideration to the whole case.
Deptford Depot
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether any further progress has been made with the negotiations with the City Corporation as regards taking over the half of Dept ford Cattle Market now occupied by his Department and re-opening and utilizing the same as a market for live cattle from Canada; and can he make any statement on the subject?
A discussion took place at Deptford on the 30th April between representatives of the War Department and the Cattle Markets Committee of the City Corporation. The Department is at present awaiting a further communication from the Corporation, who, it is understood, are consulting their surveyor.
Elementary Schools Classes(Glasgow)
asked the Solicitor. General for Scotland if he is aware that there were at the end of April 611 classes in elementary schools in Glasgow each containing over 60 pupils, and that of these 45 classes were in excess of 71 pupils; and if, in view of the educational and health results from these large classes, the Scottish Education Department is prepared to take steps to remedy this, matter?
I have been asked to reply. The Scottish Education Department understand that the figures named refer to the number of children on the roll and that, in the great majority of the 611 cases, the numbers in habitual attendance do not exceed 60. Where excess does occur, it is mainly in older schools, the structure of which is such that more adequate staffing arrangements are in the meantime precluded. The Department have reason to believe that the education authority are fully alive to the position and will be ready to deal with the whole situation as soon as a favourable opportunity occurs.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that these old schools were staffed in a much more generous fashion even during the War period, and does he consider this degradation of the standard a fitting accompaniment to the present Government?
I understand that the schools referred to are schools which were recently taken over, and although they may have previously been staffed on a more generous scale, I am not sure that the standard of the teachers was as high as it is at the present time.
Transport
London-Maidstone New Road
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport when it is proposed to throw open for public use the new London-Maidstone road; whether he is aware of the advanced state of disrepair into which the old main road has been allowed to fall; and whether, in view of 'the large amount of traffic using the road, particularly during the summer months, he will make arrangements either that the completion of the new road shall be accelerated or that the old road shall be repaired forthwith?
I had the pleasure of opening the Eltham by-pass on Thursday, 17th May. Another three mile section between Farningham and Kingsdown is also open to traffic. Other sections will be opened in the near future and I hope that the whole of the new carraigeway between Sidcup and Wrotham, including; the two bypasses at Farningham and Wrotham, will be open in the autumn. Meanwhile every possible step is being taken to mitigate the inconvenience unavoidably caused to traffic by the progress of the work.
Motor Taxation
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport if it has yet been decided what system of motor taxation should be adopted in future in order to insure that the tax paid will be commensurate with the damage done to roads?
As my hon. and gallant friend is aware, the question of any alteration in the present system of motor taxation stands referred to the Departmental Committee on the Taxation and Regulation of Road Vehicles for investigation and report. The Inquiry has proved extremely complicated and I am still awaiting the Report of the Committee.
Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say how long this inquiry has been sitting?
I could not say offhand, but I hope to have their report by July.
Main Roads (Maintenance Grants)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport if he will consider giving a higher percentage grant towards the cost of the maintenance of main roads?
The revenues of the Road Fund will not permit of any increase in the rate of grants towards the cost of the maintenance and improvement of Class I and Class II roads, and in this financial year such grants are estimated to amount to £9,000,000. These grants already absorb a very large share of the moneys available, and there are other pressing calls upon the Fund in connection with important widenings and new construction as well as the improvement of roads which are not included in Class I or Class II.
Omnibus Companies (Competition)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport wether his attention has been drawn to the rivalry between London motor omnibus companies traversing the same routes; and, in view of the danger to the public resulting therefrom, whether he has taken, or intends to take, any action in the matter?
I have been asked to reply. I am informed by the Commissioner that special instructions were issued some time ago to the police with a view to detecting offences arising out of this rivalry, and as a result there have been several prosecutions resulting in substantial fines being inflicted. Eleven cases are still pending. The police will continue to do all they can to prevent or detect offences of this nature. The Commissioner has also sent a circular letter to all omnibus proprietors calling attention to the danger of racing by drivers and requesting them to warn their employés that if any person is found taking part in or abetting the commission of any offence resulting from such practices proceedings will be taken.
Will the hon. Member inquire whether these drivers will be guilty of an offence who receive instructions from the directors of the Traffic Combine and omnibus companies to commit this particular offence, and, if so, will consideration be given to taking proceedings against the directors rather than against the poor men who are unable to protect themselves?
Is it not a fact that, as a general rule, there is no more careful user of the road than a motor omnibus driver?
I very much doubt whether what is suggested has happened, but I will certainly make inquiries.
Heavy Motor Traffic, Hampshire
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether he is aware that an order has been made prohibiting heavy motor coaches from using 13 roads in the Christchurch rural area, nine in the Fordingbridge rural district, three in the New Forest rural district, and two in the Ring-wood rural district, because the roads are not capable of carrying heavy traffic; whether he is aware of the serious nature of the restriction: whether the order is intended to be permanent; and whether he will take such action as will ensure that the roads referred to are made fit to carry this class of traffic forthwith?
An Order was made under the Roads Act, 1920, on the application of the County Council, after advertisement of the application and the holding of a public inquiry, at which objections were heard. The grounds mentioned in the Act for prohibiting or restricting the driving of any specified class of vehicle on any specified highway are that a vehicle of that class cannot be used on that highway without endangering the safety of the vehicle or the persons therein or of other traffic using the highway, or that the highway is unsuitable for use by a vehicle of that class. As regards the last part of the question, I may point out that none of the roads affected by the Order are included either in Class I or Class II, and that under existing conditions it is not possible to provide, nor is it reasonable to expect, that all highways' should at once be made capable of bearing heavy motor coach traffic.
Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that, as far as policy, it will be the policy of the Board to secure that these roads are made fit for this kind of traffic wherever this can be done?
We are doing all we can, within the limits of the funds available, to improve these roads, and there is no desire to prevent traffic going that way.
Road Repairs, London
16 and 17.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (1) whether he is aware of the length of time the Strand thoroughfare has recently been under repair, and the consequent congestion of and delay caused to traffic; and whether he can do anything to see that road repairs in the central area of London proceed with all possible despatch, in particular the area of the City of Westminster, by withholding any grants from the Road Fund;
(2) whether he is aware of the work of road repair recently being conducted at one and the same time in Holborn, St. Paul's Churchyard, Blackfriars, and the Strand, and that these are the four main arteries for traffic going east and west in central London; what steps were taken by his Department to see that more than one of these important arteries was not under repair at the same time; and, in view of these facts, what action he proposes to take in future in similar cases?
I am aware of the extensive road repairs to which my Noble and gallant Friend refers. On the general question of the co-ordination of the work of adjoining local authorities I have nothing to add to the reply which I made on the 8th instant, except that I am informed that the Metropolitan Boroughs' Standing Joint Committee is taking steps, at the request of the Westminster City Council, to promote closer consultation between the various London authorities in the matter of road repairs. Nothing which has yet occurred would, in my opinion, justify the withholding of grants from the Road Fund.
Can anything be done to encourage work on road repairs at night, and will the hon. and gallant Gentleman answer the last part of my second question as to whether his Department have taken any steps to see that more than one of these important arteries are not under repair at the same time?
As I stated in reply to a similar question on the 8th instant, we are doing all we can to bring the local authorities to act together. We have only persuasive powers and no mandatory powers. Any mandatory powers would require legislation.
Has the hon. and gallant Gentleman considered the various reports of Royal Commissions, representing the necessity of appointing a traffic authority for the whole of London as the only practical way of dealing with these traffic problems?
That raises a big question, which cannot now be discussed.
Empire Settlement
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department if he is in a position to state whether the Oversea Settlement Committee have yet been able to arrange for the maintenance and care of the wives and families of migrants to the British Dominions pending the time they are able to make a home for their dependants?
The Western Australian Land Settlement Scheme is intended to provide for a large proportion of married men with families, and includes arrangements for maintenance during the preliminary period of training. Similar arrangements are contemplated under the land settlement schemes which are now under negotiation for New South Wales and Victoria. I fear that it may be some time before these schemes are in active operation. In the meanwhile, as I informed my hon. and gallant Friend on the 10th April, the Oversea Settlement Committee are fully alive to the importance of family migration, and, together with the Oversea Governments, are carefully examining all aspects of the matter with a view to surmounting the difficulties.
Liquor Traffic (Statemanagement)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the name of the official whose part-time services to the State management district council were recognised in the last annual account by the payment of an amount of £400; whether this sum was paid to him in addition to his salary in the Department to which he is attached; whether the officials of other Departments referred to in a previous account are still employed by the State management district council; and, if so, why a proportion of their salaries is not debited against the State management scheme?
As stated in the reply given to the hon. and learned Member for East Fife (Mr. Duncan Millar) on the 14th instant, the member of the council referred to in the first paragraph of the question is Sir John Sykes. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative. As regards the third and fourth parts, three of the officials referred to in previous Estimates are still employed upon the work of the State management schemes, and the State management accounts are debited with their total emoluments.
India
Penal Code (Corporal Punishment)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he is aware that under the Indian penal code flogging may still be inflicted on Indian, but not on European prisoners; that two Commissions (the Gaol Commission and the Racial Distinction Commission) have both recommended the abolition of this punishment; and if it is proposed to act on the recommendations of the said Commissions?
The hon. and gallant Member's question is, I think based upon a misapprehension. The Indian Gaols Committee recommended the restriction, not the abolition, of corporal punishment as a punishment for gaol offences. The Racial Distinctions Committee recommended an inquiry, with a view to possible restriction, into the question of the punishment of whipping as a sentence which may be inflicted by Courts for criminal offences, and a Minority of the Committee recommended complete abolition except for juvenile offenders. In the latter case the Government of India are making the inquiry suggested by the Committee. In the former case it is proposed to adopt the Commission's recommendation and to confine corporal punishment to grave offences against prison discipline.
When is the Report of the Inquiry in India expected, and when shall we know what action the Indian Government will take?
I am afraid I do not know to what Inquiry the hon. and gallant Member refers. The Report of the Gaols Commission has already been placed in the Library last year.
The Noble Lord said that the Indian Government was prosecuting a further inquiry into the matter, and that on that inquiry would depend their action. May we know when that Report is likely to be published?
There is no question of a Report of the inquiry. It is an inquiry by the Government of India in their own administration. If the hon. and gallant Member will put a question down at a later date, I will tell him what the result of that inquiry is.
Government Officers (Income Tax)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that officers of the Indian Government who are in receipt of free quarters are now assessed for Income Tax on the rental value of those quarters, and also have to pay tax on any remissions of rent made under the rule which limits an officer's rental of Government quarters to 10 per cent, of his pay; that these exactions press most hardly on officers of the Indian police, which is not an exceptionally well paid, service; that, while the value of free housing accommodation is treated as pay for the purpose of deducting Income Tax, it does not count as pay in calculation of leave salary; and whether he will take steps to remedy matters?
Under the Indian Income Tax Act, tax is ordinarily payable in respect of perquisites (including free quarters) received by an employé of Government or otherwise. Leave salaries do not purport to be based necessarily on the whole of an officer's actual emoluments, and local and compensatory allowances are not, generally speaking, taken into account for the purpose. I have no information bearing on the question of tax on remissions of rent in the circumstances referred to in the first part of the question, and should be glad to receive any particulars bearing on the point which may be within my hon. and gallant Friend's knowledge.
Can the Noble Lord say how often such a tax is levied in England?
I do not think that that arises out of the question. At any rate, I am afraid I am not sufficiently familiar with the Income Tax law in England to be able to reply without notice.
Will the Noble Lord inquire?
I do not think it affects the question.
Russia
British Passports
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his Department is now-issuing passports to Russia; if so, how many have been issued in each of the last six months; and whether, in each case, to British subjects or to naturalised British subjects?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. To supply the figures required for a complete answer to the remainder of the question would involve immense labour and difficulty, but the total number of passports for Russia issued in the last six months is in any case very small.
Conversations With M. Krassin
asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can now make any statement on the negotiations with Russia since the Adjournment of the House for the holidays?
I am unable to add anything to the reply which I gave yesterday to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Ken-worthy).
Can the hon. Gentleman explain why semi-official communiqués are made to the Press?
No communication has been made to the Press from the Foreign Office.
Are we to understand that the "Times" has not, in view of the changed proprietorship, resumed its old position—that what we see in the "Times" represents the Foreign Office?
That is a question on which the hon. Member can form his own opinion as well as I can.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether, in the negotiations which are taking place with M. Krassin, the question of the 12 and 3-mile limits in regard to fishing has been considered?
I would ask my hon. Friend not to press me beyond what I have already said, that it is wiser not to give any indication at present as to what has been passing.
Housing
Middlesbrough
asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that the Housing Committee of the Middlesbrough Town Council still have over 3,000 applications for houses, he will give his early consent to the request of the Middlesbrough Corporation for permission to erect 180 houses required to complete an estate for which the roads and sewers have already been provided under an unfinished housing scheme sanctioned under the 1919 Housing Act?
My right hon. Friend has informed the local authority in question that, in the event of the Bill now before Parliament becoming law, he will be prepared to recognise for financial assistance the 180 houses to which the hon. Member refers. He has, however, suggested to the local authority that, with a view to obtaining more favourable prices, they should not obtain tenders for the whole of these houses at once.
Building Materials Supply Department
asked the Minister of Health whether the Government Department for building materials has been abolished; whether any of the officials of that Department are still retained; and, if so, what are their respective duties and what cost is entailed on public funds?
The Department of the Director of Building Materials Supply has been abolished, and none of the officials of that Department is retained. The work of clearing up the accounts of that Department is being carried out by the staff of the Accountant-General's Department of the Ministry. The cost of the staff at present engaged is £1,200 a month, which amount is being gradually reduced as the work diminishes.
Which section of the noble Lord's Department is dealing with the question of the building rings, since the Department has been abolished which dealt with building materials?
A Committee has been set up, as my hon. Friend is aware, to watch that question.
Post Office
Telephone Directory
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that certain telephone subscribers in the eastern districts of London have not yet received the copies of the Telephone Directory published on 1st April to which they are entitled, and that on inquiries being made subscribers are informed by his Department that the western distracts are supplied first; is this statement made on his authority; if so, why do the western districts receive preferential treatment; and will he take steps to facilitate the delivery of these directories as delay is occasioned to the service by wrong numbers being given, often due to old directories being used?
Labour troubles at the Printing Works of His Majesty's Stationery Office caused general delay in the delivery of the April issue of the London Telephone Directory. The simultaneous delivery of the whole issue —nearly a quarter of a million copies—is impossible, and the practice is to send the first consignments to the larger head district offices for distribution. No distinction is made between east and west, and any statement to the effect that preferenial treatment is accorded to he western districts of London is incorrect.
Is it the fact that the labour troubles to which the right hon. Gentleman refers were due to the refusal of the contractors to pay the trade union rate of wages?
That, of course, is not part of the original question.
Broadcasting Committee
asked the Postmaster-General whether he proposes to lay the Report of the Broadcasting Committee before Parliament for consideration and approval; and whether, in view of the importance of the whole issue, special facilities will be given for such discussion apart from the Poet Office Estimate?
The Broadcasting Committee's Report will be laid before Parliament. The last part of the question had better be repeated when the Report is laid.
When is the Report expected?
I cannot say yet. The Committee is still sitting.
Postage Stamps (Advertisements)
asked the Post master-General whether any progress has been made with the proposal for using the backs of postage stamps for advertisement purposes; and if he proposes to invite tenders from the public with this object?
This proposal has been abandoned for the time being.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say which is the back of a postage stamp?
Callers' Letters
asked the Post master-General whether facilities for caller letters at poste restantes in London and other large towns have recently been increased; whether any charge is made to callers who use these poste restantes; will he state briefly what the regulations are for callers' letters; and whether he has had any recent complaints that these regulations have been abused?
There has been no recent increase in facilities for the delivery of letters addressed Poste Restante. No charge is made for the delivery of such letters. The Regulations which are printed on page 24 of the Post Office Guide are intended to confine the use of the poste restante to bona fide strangers and, travellers. No recent cases of abuse of poste restante facilities have been brought to my notice.
Unemployment (Buildingtrades)
asked the Minister of Labour the total number of unemployed in the various branches of the building trades for each of the last three months and the amount paid in unemployment benefit?
The information is too detailed to give orally, and I will, with
Perpetual Pensions
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the name or names of the present recipient or recipients of the perpetual pension granted in 1793 to the heirs male of the body of Lord Rodney to whom the barony of Rodney shall descend?
The present recipients are Lord Rodney and Corisande Baroness Rodney.
May I ask in what circumstances part of the pension is being paid to a lady, seeing that it was limited to heirs male?
I should imagine that it is by the request of her son, the present baron. I can find out, if the hon. Member presses the question.
Do we understand that you may pass a pension off to some the consent of the hon. Member, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the statement promised:
other person if you so desire, and can the same privilege be applied to those who are in receipt of old age pensions?
As far as this pension is concerned, it is payable to the male heirs of Admiral Rodney, and, during the life of this particular male heir, he appears to have asked that a portion of the pension should be paid to his mother.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether upon payment of perpetual pensions to their present recipients deductions are made in respect of Income Tax and Super-tax?
The pensions in question are chargeable both to Income Tax and Super-tax. Appropriate deductions in respect of Income Tax are made at the time of payment, and for Super-tax purposes the pensions are aggregable with the rest of their income in the hands of the recipients.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether a perpetual pension is being paid to the heirs of the Duke of Schomberg; if so, what is the amount of the pension so paid; and in respect of what services is the pension payable?
The only portion now remaining uncommuted of the pension originally granted to the Duke of Schomberg is £360 now payable to Mr. W. S. Gosling, a member of whose family purchased this annuity in 1792. The services which led to the grant are recited in Article 1, Geo. 1, No. 78.
Is the right hon. Baronet aware that those services were recognised, not only by the grant of a pension, but also by the payment of £100,000 by this House?
I imagine this House thought the services were worth that amount.
What was the nationality of this gentleman?
This is not the time to go into history lessons.
Silver Coinage
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will take early measures to withdraw the faulty coinage of the years 1920–22, in view of the many cases in which the various silver amalgams then employed have led to the discolouring, breaking up, or flaking of the pieces?
I am afraid I cannot agree with my hon. Friend as to the coins in circulation, and the cost of withdrawing recent issues would be prohibitive.
Is my right hon. Friend cognisant of the effect that this faulty coinage has on our trade with the West Coast of Africa?
I must confess I have not heard of that.
Is the right hon. Baronet not aware that this coinage was understood to represent the Coalition system under which we then lived?
I am afraid I did not grasp the question fully.
Would my right hon. Friend be surprised to hear that the estimate of the amount of trouble required to withdraw the very limited amount of the present currency applying to these years, though large, is not such as would frighten those Members of the House who are accustomed to deal with large figures?
Naval Base, Singapore
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the shortest time possible in which the proposed naval base at Singapore could be constructed?
I have been asked to reply. Pending the result of the preliminary work and additional investigations it is impossible to give a precise date.
When can we have a straight answer to a straight question?
That kind of courtesy does not deserve any answer.
Ruhr Occupation (Customsduties)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any agreement has yet been reached as to the disposal of the money collected at the French customs stations on British goods entering the occupied areas of the Ruhr; and what steps he is taking to pursue the matter?
I am unable to add anything to previous answers.
Will the right hon. Baronet answer the last part of the question? Are we taking any steps to pursue the matter in view of the fact that the sum of money must be increasing every week?
We are considering the question and trying to arrive at the amount of money which is increasing every week.
Is it the intention of the French Government to keep the money until they have paid for the cost of occupation, and is that a course to which we assent?
The whole matter has not yet been decided. I do not think it can be decided until the whole question of reparations is dealt with.
Are we to understand that no Notes are passing or discussions taking place at all?
I am afraid the hon. and gallant Gentleman must address any questions to the Foreign Office.
German Exports (Reparationduty)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that export prices fixed by the German Government for goods shipped to this country are higher than the prices fixed for similar goods exported to France, Holland and Belgium by a percentage more or less equivalent to the 26 per cent, duty imposed here by the German Reparation (Recovery) Act; and if he will make representations to the German Government which will have the effect of placing this country on the same footing as that of other countries?
I have been asked to reply. I would refer the hon. Member to the replies given him on the 9th and 23rd April, to which at present I have nothing to add, except that communications on the subject are still proceeding with the German Government.
Deportations to Ireland(Law Officers' Fees)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of fees which have been paid, or will be payable, to the Law Officers of the Crown, giving the amounts received and receivable by each officer separately, in connection with the recent deportations to the Irish Free State; and will he state separately the sums received and receivable in connection with the appeal to the House of Lords?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for Edmonton.
Is there any truth in the rumour that, in view of the result of this advice, the Law Officers are waiving their fees, or alternatively handing them over to the people who were wrongly imprisoned?
The rumour has not yet reached me.
Retiring Civil Servants(Pension)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether arrangements can be made for a monetary advance to be paid from the lump sum due on retirement to civil servants awaiting final settlement of pension so as to alleviate the hardships that sometimes arise during the waiting period?
Arrangements are normally made on request for such advances in special cases in which delay in the final settlement would involve hardship.
House Property (Income Taxassessments)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if any increase in the amount of Income Tax collected during the current financial year has been estimated to accrue as the result of the reassessment for Income Tax Schedule A.
The Budget estimate of the yield of Income Tax in the current financial year was made after full consideration of all the relevant circumstances, including the re-assessment for Income Tax Schedule A.
Does that consideration include any estimate for the increase to be collected under Schedule A?
The consideration includes the fact that there would be an increase in the amount taken as a whole, though I cannot say as to any special heading.
What was the actual estimate of the increase under Schedule A?
The increase of Income Tax was estimated as a whole, and it will be so found in the Budget speech.
Does the right hon. Baronet suggest that the Treasury, in making an estimate of Income Tax, do not take into consideration the various factors that make for increase and decrease and allocate accordingly?
I have not been at the Treasury long. I think there is no doubt that they make the most careful estimates, but the figures I have at present are the total estimate arrived at of the whole of the Income Tax.
Is it not a fact that the Chancellor in his Budget speech stated he expected to realise from this re-assessment about £7,000,000, whereas all the experts have stated over and over again they anticipate he will realise about £25,000,000?
Of course, if the hon. Member tells me my right hon. Friend stated that, I must accept it, but I cannot think he said anything like it.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many Commissioners of Income Tax there are at present in Great Britain or in England and Wales, as the case may be, to hear possible appeals on the hereditaments which are now the subject of reassessment for Income Tax?
The information referred to in the question is not readily available and its production would involve the expenditure of a considerable amount of time and labour. There are 651 Income Tax divisions in England and Wales and 66 in Scotland. The Income Tax Act, 1918, provides that the number of General Commissioners appointed and authorised to act for any division and the number of persons to supply vacancies respectively shall not exceed seven or be less than three, but the Commissioners of Inland Revenue may, if they think fit, authorise an increase to any number not exceeding 14 in each such case.
Did my right hon. Friend say Commissions or Commissioners?
I said divisions. There are 651 Income Tax divisions, all of which have a certain number of Commissioners.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that on the subject giving, notice of appeal against his assessment for Income Tax, Schedule A, to the Com- missioner of Taxes, the inspector of taxes sends him a form containing nine questions, including a question as to the taxpayer's considered opinion of the maximum yearly rent at which the property could be let an the assumption that he did all the repairs and the tenant paid all the usual tenant's rates; and will he give instructions to these inspectors of taxes not to usurp the functions of the Commissioners of Taxes?
The inquiry to which my horn, and gallant Friend refers was no doubt issued in pursuance of the practice under which inspectors of taxes, with the sanction of the local Commissioners of Taxes, endeavour to adjust, by agreement, assessments under all Schedules of the Income Tax Acts. This old-established practice, which has proved of great convenience to the public, in no way usurps the functions of the Commissioners of Taxes or infringes upon a. taxpayer's right to appear personally before those Commissioners in support of his appeal, if he desires to do so.
In the present circumstances would the Treasury give directions how the subject can appeal directly to the Commissioners?
I will consider whether it is possible that action may be taken.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that Income Tax assessors, in fixing the assessments for the purposes of Income Tax, Schedule Ā (Property Tax), 1923–24, have generally adopted the gross assessments fixed for poor rate purposes, but in order to arrive at the net assessments the assessors have granted a much smaller allowance in respect of repairs, etc., than that allowed in the poor rate assessments; and, as this appears to be causing much dissatisfaction, will he consider, if the gross assessments under Schedule A must be increased in accordance with the higher value of houses since the last revision, whether he can authorise larger deductions in respect of repairs to be made, as it is considered that the scale of allowances for repairs in accordance with Note II on the back of the notice of assessment is insufficient, having regard to the high cost of repairs, insurance, and other expenses necessary to maintain houses in a state to command the new rentals or annual values assessed?
Outside the Metropolis, the rating valuation has never governed the Income Tax assessment, which is arrived at upon a different statutory basis, namely, the rent at which property is let, or is worth to be let, by the year under an ordinary tenancy. On the other hand, copies of the current poor-rate valuations have been obtained as provided by law, and have been duly taken into consideration in connection with the new assessments. With regard to repairs, etc., if the hon. Member will refer to the note on the back of the Notice of Assessment to which he alludes, he will see that, apart from the flat rate deductions for repairs, the law makes provision whereby the owner can obtain allowance in respect of expenditure on repairs and maintenance on a five-year average. In the result, the owner will bear tax solely on the income which he enjoys.
Irish Free State (Financialadjustments)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will give to the House, before the consideration of the Finance Bill is resumed, a statement of the financial adjustment for the year ending 31st March, 1923, between the British Treasury and the Irish Free State, showing payments and receipts on either side and amounts outstanding, if any; and if he will furnish an estimate of the sums receivable by the British Treasury from the Irish Free State and any payments to be made to the Irish Free State during the present financial year?
I will have a statement prepared as soon as possible, but it will be some time before the figures in regard to the collection and attribution of revenue for the year just closed can be ascertained.
Questions to Ministers
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, with regard to the private notice question which I sent to you this morning, and which you rule is not sufficiently urgent to be put as a. private notice question, shall I, now that Question Time is over, be in order in putting it now to the Under-Secretary, to whom I have already given notice?
I have ruled that the question was not sufficiently urgent, and the hon. and gallant Member must put it on the Paper.
May I point out that on many occasions in the Parliament which expired in 1918, your predecessor, Mr. Speaker Lowther, ruled that he could not disallow a question on the ground that it was not urgent, if the question was capable of being put before quarter to four, that the rule in regard to urgency only applied to the time after quarter to four, and that before quarter to four any hon. Member could put a question, even an oral question, without notice.
I will look into the matter again, but my impression is that the Standing Order says that two days' notice must be given. I will look into what my predecessor said, if the hon. Member will give me the reference.
I cannot give the reference at the moment, but I know for a fact that Mr. Speaker Lowther did so rule. I think the rights of Members should be consulted in these matters. Certainly on one occasion, privately, Mr. Speaker Lowther gave me that view.
I shall be glad to look into the matter, and if my present impression be wrong, I will take occasion to correct it.
Official Report
Circulation to Members
I desire, Mr. Speaker, to ask whether you are aware that it is no longer possible for hon. Members to obtain here a copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT, and that this is very inconvenient for Members desiring to make speeches, and wishing to refer to speeches made the night before by themselves, or to other speeches made the night before. If it has been suggested to you that the Post Office have interfered in the matter, and that they do not wish to lose the money which would otherwise be paid for posting the OFFICIAL REPORT in the ordinary way, and that that is the reason why the supply of the OFFICIAL REPORT has been stopped, may I suggest that it should be the rule that no franking of the OFFICIAL REPORT should be allowed, but that a supply of the OFFICIAL REPORT should always be available for Members of this House?
The Post Office drew my attention to considerable irregularities that were taking place, for instance, a Member who had delivered a speech in the House, taking 20 copies of the OFFICIAL REPORT, and inviting his friends to frank them. That was a distinct invasion of the long-established rule, which has been that a Member is entitled to a copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT delivered to him, and that he is entitled to an additional copy if he has to return his first copy, with alterations of his speeches, for the bound volume of the OFFICIAL REPORT. That has been the limit which has been applied, but recently a different practice has grown up; and when my attention was drawn to the matter, I felt obliged to issue instructions that the old rule should be adhered to.
Would it not meet the case if my suggestion were followed out—that no franking of the OFFICIAL REPORT should be allowed from the House, but that a supply of copies of the OFFICIAL REPORT should be available for Members here?
The hon. Member has a copy sent to him, and he can buy as many other copies as he likes.
May I suggest that the new ruling in regard to the Vote Office is a matter of great inconvenience to many of us who represent constituencies many miles from this House. We have our copies of the OFFICIAL REPORT sent home, and it is not convenient for us to see these copies of the OFFICIAL REPORT until we return home at the week-end. While the case that you have cited, Mr. Speaker, is very regrettable, may I suggest that some facilities should be given to hon. Members for, at least, getting a copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT, when they ask for it, for their own personal use in the House during the week.
I have tried every method I can think of to safeguard the rights of hon. Members, but hon. Members are so ingenious that I do not think it is possible to do what is suggested. I will only say that if any representations reach me which would safeguard the position, I shall always do my best to meet the convenience of hon. Members.
I would ask you to reconsider this matter. It is most convenient that we should have a copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT at home, for reference purposes. Otherwise, I am afraid that we cannot do the work that we are expected to do here. It is equally necessary that we should at least have one copy available for our work here. According to the present rule, if a copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT be sent to an hon. Member's home, he cannot have a copy for his work here during the day. I think that it should be possible for you to find some means by which, at any rate, a Member might have the right to two copies of the OFFICIAL REPORT. That, I believe, would meet the difficulties that have arisen, and at the same time prevent an abuse of the privileges of the House.
Might I ask whether, in the event of a spare copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT having to be bought, arrangements might be made so that that extra copy might be got in the Vote Office, and that a Member would not have to go outside to one of the establishments mentioned on the cover of the OFFICIAL REPORT?
The difficulty is that the Vote Office does not sell official documents, or receive any money. With regard to the point raised by the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. MacDonald) the Post Office declined to incur the excessive amount of expenditure which was involved, and that led to the necessity of my issuing a ruling on the matter. But I shall be glad to consider any practical suggestion which is made.
We get one copy every day through the post, delivered at our home address. When we come down here, we find there is no copy available for us in the Vote Office. I have myself suffered the greatest inconvenience, owing to not having a copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT issued to-day, to guide me as to what happened yesterday, in the work that has got to be done to-day. This is most inconvenient, and I do not think that the present policy is a practical one to carry out.
May I draw attention to the fact that if an hon. Member wishes, he can have the bound copies of the OFFICIAL REPORT sent to his own address in the country, and he can have his copy of the daily part delivered at his London address, so that he may have it here to refer to when he wishes?
Beyond what I have already said, I can only add that the price of the copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT was reduced experimentally by the Treasury, from 1s. to 6d., in the expectation that the circulation might go up, so as to justify the reduction in price. But when it was found that there was an abnormal increase in the number of copies taken from the Vote Office, it was felt that it was defeating the very object which the Treasury had in view. If hon. Members, in conjunction with the Treasury and the Vote Office, would suggest some arrangement, I should be glad to consider it.
May I suggest that, if the work were given out to private tender, you would soon find that the price would go down.
Might I suggest that this matter should be brought before the Select Committee on Publications and Debates, so that they might report as to any steps which might be considered desirable, and in the meantime hon. Members might be allowed to have one other copy in the Vote Office.
That is a suggestion which I shall be very glad to consider.
Might I suggest that to some Members of this House, the expenditure of 6d. a day on a copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT is rather an excessive Remand.
May I draw attention to the very offensive remark of the Noble Lord the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon), in calling out "Order in the Soviet!" Is that in Order?
It is not a permissible expression.
I shall be very glad to withdraw it.
Bills Presented
PROTECTION OF ANIMALS, ETC., BILL,
"to consolidate and amend enactments relating to the protection of animals and to knackers and knackers' yards, and to make further provision with respect thereto, and to amend the law relating to slaughter-houses, and to repeal certain enactments, and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid," presented by Mr. AMMON; supported by Mr. Rhys Davies, Mr. Arthur Greenwood, Mr. Clynes, Mr. Wignall, Mr. James Stewart, Mr. Griffiths, and Mr. Noel Buxton; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 8th June, and to be printed. [Bill 151.]
DEATHS REGISTRATION AND BURIALS BILL,
"to amend the law relating to the registration of deaths and to burials," presented by Dr. SALTER; supported by Mr. John Williams, Mr. Ammon, Mr. Middleton, Mr. Cecil Wilson, Mr. David Grenfell, and Mr. Snell; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 152.]
Freedom of Labour
I beg to move,
"That leave be given to introduce a Bill to free members of trade unions from any obligation to subscribe to levies raised for the purpose of providing salaries for Members of Parliament."
In asking leave to introduce this Bill, I have no desire to interfere with the freedom of Labour Members, but simply wish to relieve members of trade unions from any obligation to subscribe levies to provide salaries for Members of Parliament. I have, and always have had, the strongest possibly sympathy with the legitimate objects of trade unions, and, for the advantage of hon. Members opposite, it may be well to state what these objects are. They are, when men are out of work to provide them with payments in relief, when they are ill to give them assistance, and when they reach old age to give them some small allowance, and, on their death, the widows very often are provided with funeral expenses. Further than that, there is the protection of the worker against victimisation by the employer. When we come to examine some of the accounts of the trade unions, as I have done during the past year, we find one trade union with administrative charges amounting to £40,000, whereas the benefit received through that particular union is only £17,000. In the case of another trade union, the subscriptions amount only to £5,000, and the balance sheet shows that £2,000 was paid to a Member of Parliament as his salary—[HON. MEMBERS: "Name!"]—as his election expenses. [HON. MEMBERS: "Name!"] The Dockers' Union. I could multiply examples.
I submit, as a point of Order, that the hon. Member is not entitled to make a statement of that character in this House without giving the full facts. What is the name of the Member to whom he alludes? What is the money subscribed for, and is it not a fact that no levy is ever placed on any member of a trade union for payment of the salary of a Member of Parliament, seeing that this House pays its Members, and not the union?
I am speaking from a printed balance sheet, which I have in my possession. It is a balance sheet of the Dockers' Union, and I know of other cases of payments to Members of Parliament of £600 per annum, first-class railway fares, and a substantial allowance while living in London. These men do not really represent constituencies; they are merely delegates of their trade union.
May I raise a point of Order with regard to the statement made by the hon. Member that in the Dockers' Union the subscriptions amounted to £5,000, and that £2,000 was used for the purpose of paying the salary of a Member of this House? Is the hon. Member entitled to cast such an aspersion on any hon. Member of this House by stating that he receives £2,000 by way of salary out of a sum of £5,000, which the union subscribes?
It shows, perhaps, the high value the union places on the Member.
It is a lie, a deliberate lie.
May I—
You are a liar.
The expression which I heard used by the hon. Member for St. Helen's (Mr. Sexton) cannot be allowed to be made on the Floor of this House. An hon. Member gives information which may be inaccurate, but he gives it to the best of his knowledge and belief.
We do not believe that.
The hon. Member for St. Helens will please withdraw the expression which he used.
I withdraw the expression, but I repeat it is a deliberate untruth.
Hon. Members opposite told us during the war that they were in favour of the idea of voluntary service. They told us in their speeches on public platforms that one volunteer was worth two pressed men. I think the whole idea of the payment of those who come into the House of Commons on behalf of a section of the community is full of abuse, and the practice is one which should be discontinued.
What about your own pit props?
No one objects to trade union funds being applied to their legitimate uses. The objects of trade unions are to provide benefits for the workers, not to find jobs for political agitators. Look at the irony of the situation with which we are faced at the present moment. We know of the privations to which workers are being subjected. People come to me almost daily and tell me that they are unable to get from their trade unions the advantages to which they are entitled, yet these trade unions are paying exorbitant salaries of Socialist Members of Parliament. I quite understand there may be cases where such payments may be legitimate and I have provided for them in this Bill by proposing that, on a Resolution passed by both Houses of Parliament, a trade union shall be entitled to make a payment of such a nature, and in such cases the details of the payment, including the name of the Member of Parliament, must be registered at Somerset House, so that the public may be made acquainted with those details. I feel that this Bill is most important in the interests of the nation, and I, therefore, beg to ask leave to introduce it.
The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer), who has asked the leave of the House to introduce this Bill, made one or two statements which I think the House should carefully consider before coming to a decision. He has given no indication of the framework of his Bill except that, in his last sentences, he spoke of a Resolution to be passed by both Houses of Parliament to enable a union to pay Members of Parliament, and he stated that all the details were to be supplied to the public and were to be lodged at Somerset House. Is the hon. Member also desirous of adding to the Bill a provision which shall state how much is paid to other Members of this House for their election expenses out of the funds of the party of which they are members? The Bill which has been introduced is, in my opinion, a travesty and an abuse of the Ten Minutes Rule. What is the object of the Bill, as Stated by the hon. Member himself? It is to free members of trade unions from any obligation to subscribe to levies raised for the purpose of providing salaries for Members of Parliament. The hon. Member, by putting that forward as his object, shows his ignorance of trade unionism. There is absolutely no levy imposed upon a member of a trade union for the purpose of providing a salary for any Member of Parliament. There is a Political Fund to which they can subscribe voluntarily, but it is a voluntary payment. There is no compulsion whatever on a member of a trade union. He can sign a statement that he is not in favour of, or does not desire to contribute to the fund. [ Interruption. ]
I must ask hon. Members to listen to the arguments on both sides before we come to a decision.
Members of trade unions have that right established by the law of this country. They can sign a statement stating that they have no desire to contribute anything to the union political fund, and they are at once immune from any levy. That shows that the hon. Member is taking advantage of the Ten Minute Rule to bring in a Bill upon a subject about which he knows nothing and in terms which show his ignorance. It is not necessary to lodge this Bill at Somerset House to let. the public know all the information which the hon. Member possesses about trade unionism. He states that he has no objection to trade unions carrying out their legitimate purposes, and he then goes on to say what they are—out-of-work benefit, sickness benefit, superannuation, and, finally, protection against employers victimising workmen. The last-named was the original object of trade unionism. I want to put this question to hon. Members who, like my hon. Friend opposite, are at the present time dismissing their workmen and reducing wages. When they are so much concerned with saving the money of trade organisations, are they as much concerned about the organisations which they are connected? I am not putting this forward in any personal way, but I understand that the hon. Member who has brought in this Bill is managing director of a firm. He is also a Member of this House, and he sits here and draws a salary as a Member of Parliament. Does he deduct anything from his salary as managing director in respect of the time that he is at work in this House?
I do not get a salary.
Let me apologise to the hon. Member. I have just heard that the firm of which he is managing director is now bankrupt. Yet my hon. Friend wants to advise trade unions how to conduct their business. I want to ask the hon. Member another question. We have in this House Members—not Members sitting upon the benches behind me—who are receiving retaining fees, not from trade unions, but from friendly societies, insurance societies, railway companies, arid business organisations. Some of them are subsidised by the Federation of British Industries. Why does not the hon. Member introduce a Clause in this Bill dealing with those hon. Members? Why does he single out, as he has done, one hon. Member of this House and quote a balance-sheet which he says that he has seen and which shows that £5,000 was received in one year and £2,000 paid out in salary. I deny that, and I challenge the production of that balance-sheet here in this House. There is no trade union Member of Parliament who receives from his trade union anything approaching the sum mentioned by the hon. Member.
I did not say that there was £2,000 salary paid to anybody. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes!"] I said £2,000 paid as salary and election expenses of a Member of Parliament.
I am within the recollection of the House. The hon. Member stated that there was an income of £5,000 per year and that £2,000 had been paid to a Member of this House in salary. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] He made no statement at that time of election expenses. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes, he did!"] I will accept that correction, but, again, it shows the absurdity of the hon. Gentleman's position, because he takes a year in which a Parliamentary Election was fought, and he bases his argument upon that year. I challenge the hon. Member—
So do I.
I again challenge the hon. Member to produce that balance-sheet. He will find that it was not anything like £2,000 that was paid either as salary or as salary and election expenses. As a matter of fact, had that sum been spent, the hon. Member would have exceeded the amount of his election expenses. This Bill is entirely unnecessary, and, as a matter of fact, this Parliament will go down to history as the Parliament in which the Tories wished to free the Labour party, so that they could impose more slavery upon them. On the ground that the Bill from its very wording is a travesty of the Ten Minute Rule, and that it should be out of order, I oppose its introduction.
Question put,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to free members of trade unions from any obligation to subscribe to levies raised for the purpose of providing salaries for Members of Parliament."
The House divided: Ayes, 138; Noes, 174.
Division No. 157.] AYES. [4.7 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Foreman, Sir Henry Molloy, Major L. G. S. Alaxander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Forestier-Walker, L. Morden, Col. W. Grant Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Apsley, Lord Frece, Sir Walter de Murchison, C. K. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Nail, Major Joseph Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Furness, G. J. Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Gates, Percy Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Goff, Sir R. Park Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Gray, Harold (Cambridge) Nield, Sir Herbert Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Greaves-Lord, Walter Oman, Sir Charles William C. Berry, Sir George Gwynne, Rupert S. Paget, T. G. Blades, Sir George Rowland Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'I.W.D'by) Pease, William Edwin Brassey, Sir Leonard Halstead, Major D. Pennefather, De Fonblanque Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Penny, Frederick George Bruton, Sir James Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Perkins, Colonel E. K. Buckingham, Sir H. Harrison, F. C. Privett, F. J. Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hawke, John Anthony Raeburn, Sir William H. Cadogan, Major Edward Hllder. Lieut.-Colonel Frank Ralne, W. Cautley, Henry Strother Hlley, Sir Ernest Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk, Peel Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Churchman, Sir Arthur Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Clarry, Reginald George Hood, Sir Joseph Reynolds, W. G. W. Clayton, G. C. Houfton, John Plowright Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Cobb, Sir Cyril Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Hudson, Capt. A. Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Hume, G. H. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Cope, Major William Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Roundell, Colonel R. F. Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) Russell, Alexander West-(Tynemouth) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Russell, William (Bolton) Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Curzon, Captain Viscount Lorden, John William Sandon, Lord Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Lorimer, H. D. Shipwright, Captain D. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Lort-Williams, J. Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) Edmondson, Major A. J. Lougher, L. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Falcon, Captain Michael Mercer, Colonel H. Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley] Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Fermor-Hesketh, Major T. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Tubbs, S. W. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Willey, Arthur Yerburgh, R. D. T. Waring, Major Walter Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Wise, Frederick TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Wells, S. R. Wolmer, viscount Mr. Remer and Lieut.-Colonel Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Archer-Shee.
NOES. Adams, D. Hardie George D. Paling, W. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Harney, E. A. Parker, H. (Hanley) Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Harris, Percy A. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark) Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Phillipps, Vivian Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hayday, Arthur Potts, John S. Ammon, Charles George Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Pringle. W. M. R. Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) Rae, Sir Henry N. Attlee, C. R. Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Riley, Ben Barnes, A. Herriotts, J. Ritson, J. Batey, Joseph Hill, A. Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hinds, John Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Berkeley, Captain Reginald Hirst, G. H. Rose, Frank H. Bonwick, A. Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Royce, William Stapieton Bowdler, W. A. Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) Saklatvala, S. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hogge, James Myles Salter, Dr. A. Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Hopkins, John W. W. Sexton, James Broad, F. A. Irving, Dan Shakespeare, G. H. Brotherton, J. Jarrett, G. W. S. Shinwell, Emanuel Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) John, William (Rhondda, West) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Buchanan, G. Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Buckle, J. Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Simpson, J. Hope Burgess, S. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Sinclair, Sir A. Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sitch, Charles H. Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Smith, T. (Pontefract) Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Jones, T. I Mardy (Pontypridd) Snell, Harry Chapple W. A. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Snowden, Philip Clarke, Sir E. C. Kenworthy, Lieut. Commander J. M. Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Kenyon, Barnet Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Collins, Pat (Walsall) Lamb, J. Q. Stephen, Campbell Collison, Levi Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Darbishire, C. W. Lansbury, George Sturrock, J. Leng Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Lawson, John James Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby] Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Leach, W. Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Lee, F. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Duncan, C. Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Dunnico, H. Linfield, F. C. Thornton, M. Ede, James Chuter Lowth, T. Trevelyan, C. P. Edge, Captain Sir William Lunn, William Wallhead, Richard C. Edmonds, G. Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelity) McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Ellis, R. G. MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) McLaren, Andrew Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Falconer, J. Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Webb, Sidney Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. March, S. Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Foot, Isaac Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Weir, L. M. Gilbert, James Daniel Maxton, James Westwood, J. Gosling, Harry Middleton, G. Wheatley, J. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. White. Charles F. (Derby, Western) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Whiteley, W. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Morel, E. D. Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Muir, John W. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Groves, T. Murnin, H. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Grundy, T. W. Murray, John (Leeds, West) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western) Wintringham, Margaret Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shotland) Nichol. Robert Harbord, Arthur O'Grady, Captain James TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. Spoor and Mr. Neil Maclean.
Business of the House
I wish to ask a question of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, of which I have given him Private Notice, regarding the Business down on the Order Paper to-day, Item 13—Finance [Expenses] (Consolidated Fund). The second section of the Financial Resolution deals with the payments for the American Debt. I should like to know whether the Financial Secretary proposes, before taking this Resolution, to give us in a more complete and more official form full information regarding the payments on this Debt and the arrangement come to by the Prime Minister and our Government with the American Government. No White Paper or anything that is really authoritative has, as far as I know, been published, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman, as a good, sound Parliamentary man, whether he does not agree that we should have a very full statement in printed form?
There was certainly an outline of the Statement published in the Press in February last, and I thought that had given all the information required: but I will consider whether it is possible to comply with the hon. Member's request.
Are we to understand that publications in the Press are to take the place of regular Parliamentary papers. On matters of
this sort concerning money payments, are we to refer to the public Press?
The policy, as I understand it, is that we desire to be economical, and not to publish unnecessary White Papers, but as the responsible Leader of the Opposition has asked me to publish this document, I will consider whether it is possible to do so.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on the Restoration of Order in Ireland (Indemnity) Bill be exempted, at this day's sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
The House divided: Ayes, 257; Noes, 163.
Division No. 158.] AYES. [4.15 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Cohen, Major J. Brunel Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Henn, Sir Sydney H. Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark) Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Conway, Sir W. Martin Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S. Cope, Major William Hewett, Sir J. P. Apsley, Lord Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Hilder. Lieut.-Colonel Frank Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Hiley, Sir Ernest Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Curzon, Captain Viscount Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Balfour, George (Hampstead) Davidson, J.C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Hood, Sir Joseph Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Hopkins, John W. W. Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague Doyle, N. Grattan Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead Barnett, Major Richard W. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Houfton, John Plowright Barnston, Major Harry Edmondson, Major A. J. Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Ednam, Viscount Hudson, Capt. A. Bellairs, Commander Cariyon W. Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Hume, G. H. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Ellis, R. G. Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. sir Aylmer Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Berry, Sir George Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Betterton, Henry B. Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Erskine-Boist, Captain C. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Blades, Sir George Rowland Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Jarrett, G. W. S. Blundell, F. N. Falcon, Captain Michael Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Jephcott, A. R. Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Fawkes, Major F. H. Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Brass, Captain W. Fermor-Hesketh, Major T. Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Brassey, Sir Leonard Flanagan, W. H. Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Brittain, Sir Harry Foreman, Sir Henry Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Forestier-Walker, L. King, Captain Henry Douglas Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Frece, Sir Walter de Lamb, J. Q. Bruford, R. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Bruton, Sir James Furness, G. J. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Buckingham, Sir H. Ganzonl, Sir John Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Garland, C. S. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Gates, Percy Lorden, John William Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Lorimer, H. D. Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge) Goff, Sir R. Park Lort-Williams, J. Butcher, Sir John George Gray, Harold (Cambridge) Lougher, L. Cadogan, Major Edward Greaves-Lord, Walter Lowe, Sir Francis William Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Gretton, Colonel John Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Cautley, Henry Strother Guinness, Lieut.-Col Hon. W. E. Lumley, L. R. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Gwynne, Rupert S. M'Connell, Thomas E. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'I.W.D'by) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Halstead, Major D. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Chapman, Sir S. Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Margesson, H. D. R. Churchman, Sir Arthur Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford) Clarry, Reginald George Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Clayton, G. C. Harrison, F. C. Mercer, Colonel H. Cobb, Sir Cyril Harvey, Major S. E. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Hawke, John Anthony Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Molloy, Major L. G. S. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Stuart, Lord C, Crichton- Molson, Major John Elsdale Reid, D. D. (County Down) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Remer, J. R. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Remnant, Sir James Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley) Morden, Col. W. Grant Rentoul, G. S. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Reynolds, W. G. W. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Tubbs, S. W. Murchison, C. K. Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) Wallace, Captain E. Nail, Major Joseph Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Robertson-Despencer, Major(Isl'gt'nW) Waring, Major Walter Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Wells, S. R. Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Nield, Sir Herbert Russell, William (Bolton) White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Willey, Arthur Oman, Sir Charles William C. Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Paget, T. G. Sandon, Lord Winterton, Earl Pease, William Edwin Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Wise, Frederick Pennefather, De Fonblanque Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Wolmer, Viscount Penny, Frederick George Shepperson, E. W. Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Shipwright, Captain D. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Perkins, Colonel E. K. Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Peto, Basil E. Skelton, A. N. Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Yerburgh, R. D. T. Privett, F. J. Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Rae, Sir Henry N. Stanley, Lord TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Raeburn, Sir William H. Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Raine, W. Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth
NOES. Adams, D. Grundy, T. W. Middleton, G. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Guthrie, Thomas Maule Morel, E. D. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Morrison, R C. (Tottenham, N.) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) Mosley, Oswald Ammon, Charles George Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Mulr, John W. Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Harbord, Arthur Murnin, H. Attlee, C. R. Hardie, George D. Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abartillery) Harney, E. A. Murray, John (Leeds, West) Barnes, A. Harris, Percy A. Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western) Batey, Joseph Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Nichol, Robert Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hayday, Arthur O'Grady, Captain James Berkeley, Captain Reginald Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Paling, W. Bonwick, A. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) Parker, H. (Hanley) Bowdler, W. A. Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Phillipps, Vivian Broad, F. A. Herriotts, J. Potts, John S. Brotherton, J. Hill, A. Pringle, W. M. R. Buchanan, G. Hinds, John Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Buckle, J. Hirst, G. H. Ritson, J. Burgess, S. Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Hodge, Lleut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Hogge, James Myles Rose, Frank H. Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) Royce, William Stapleton Chapple, W. A. Irving, Dan Saklatvala, S. Clarke, Sir E. C. John, William (Rhondda, West) Salter, Dr. A. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Sexton, James Collins, Pat (Walsall) Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Shinwell, Emanuel Collison, Levi Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Darbishire, C. W. Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Simpson, J. Hope Davison, J. E. (Smethwlck) Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Sinclair, Sir A. Duncan, C. Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Sitch, Charles H. Dunnico, H. Kenyon, Barnet Smith, T. (Pontefract) Ede, James Chuter Lansbury, George Snell, Harry Edge, Captain Sir William Lawson, John James Snowden, Philip Edmonds, G. Leach, W. Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lee, F. Spoor, B. G. Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighlay) Stephen, Campbell Falconer, J. Linfield, F. C. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Lowth, T. Sturrock, J. Leng Foot, Isaac Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Gilbert, James Daniel McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Gosling, Harry MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Thorne, G. R. (Wolvarhampton, E.) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) McLaren, Andrew Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Maclean, Nail (Glasgow, Govan) Thornton, M. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Trevelyan, C. P. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Wallhead, Richard C. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Groves, T. Maxton, James Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Webb, Sidney Whiteley, W. Wintringham, Margaret Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Weir. L. M. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich) Westwood, J. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Wheatley, J. Wilson, C. H (Sheffield, Attercliffe) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Mr. Morgan Jones and Mr. Lunn.
BARNSLEY CORPORATION BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Orders of the Day
Restoration of Order in Ireland (Indemnity) Bill
Order for Committee read.
I beg to move,
"That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill that they have power to make provision for the assessment of compensation to persons deprived of a right of action for damages or of other legal proceedings by the Bill."
I move this Instruction in order to carry out, as far as possible, what was the general wish of the House, and what was promised by the Lord Privy Seal last night, namely, to make it possible to insert in the Bill provision for compensation to the persons who were deported and interned. There is a limited number of copies of an Amendment, which I propose to move later, already available in the Vote Office. If the Instruction be carried, I hope it will be possible to deal with the question of compensation when we reach the Committee stage.
Question put, and agreed to.
Ordered,
"That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill that they have power to make provision for the assessment of compensation to persons deprived of a right of action for damages or of other legal proceedings by the Bill."
Bill considered in Committee.
[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—( Indemnity for action taken under Restoration of Order in Ireland Regulations. )
No action or other legal proceeding whatsoever, whether civil or criminal, shall be instituted in any court of law against any person for, or on account of, or in respect of the issue before the passing of this Act, of any Order purporting to have been made in pursuance of any Regulations made under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act, 1920, or for, on account of, or in respect of any act done for the purpose of carrying any such Order into effect or done in purported exercise of any powers under the said Regulations; and if any such proceeding has been instituted, whether before or after the passing of this Act, it shall be discharged and made void.
I beg to move, after the word "No," to insert the word "criminal."
The object of this Amendment can be seen at once. It is probably unknown to some hon. Members that owing to the trouble and suspicions engendered during War, owing to the long-continued trouble in Ireland, to a great extent the police forces of this country are being used by the Government to terrorise and harass small people. Members on this side of the House warned the Government in general and the Home Secretary in particular what might be the result of his rash action when he gathered up these unfortunate people and sent them overseas. What we say now is that if liberty is to be more than a name, if habeas corpus is to be any guarantee at all, while mistakes may be made, while Governments and officials must make mistakes, still they must suffer and bear the consequences of those mistakes. The provision in the Bill is that no action shall be instituted. We wish to have the word "criminal" inserted so that u should provide only against criminal action being taken. We feel it is not right that the Home Secretary should use what is practically the method of lettres de cachet and escape scot free. We feel that the House must leave some action open to the people concerned. Just imagine what has happened. Over 100 people, many of them small people, have been taken without any warning and in many cases absolutely without any justification, and deported to Ireland. These people now find themselves in serious difficulties.
For instance, one man was a tramway driver in a certain large town. He was taken out of his bed at night by the order of the Government and sent to Ireland. Then he was freed and sent back to this country, but when he went to seek his situation he found it was closed to him. No explanation was given. He has been in prison and in trouble, and his means of livelihood are now cut off from him. These are matters which the Committee should understand. Then you have the case of a man who was in business for himself. For five or six weeks his business was neglected and his business connection is now lost to him. There are also cases such as that of a man who has a partner with whom he has lived and worked for 20 or 30 years. No question of religion or politics has ever come between them, but in the course of a single night one man dis- appears and is afterwards found to be in the hands of the police. The remaining partner has to carry on alone. He does not know what has happened, but naturally he views his partner with a certain amount of suspicion. Has he not been in the hands of the police? He asks himself. What may not lie behind all this? What about the dark hints and the "I would if I could" attitude of the Home Secretary six weeks ago, when he referred to the alleged existence of evidence of horrible things which were going to happen? I wish the Committee to realise the cruelty of taking people who are unsuspecting, and in many cases, absolutely innocent, out of their beds at night, of sending them overseas and when they return to their homes of telling them that everything is to be "as you were." This cannot be. These people must have the fullest chance of clearing themselves and of rehabilitating themselves in the eyes of their fellows.
Think of what it means to people who have lived for long periods in particular localities, absolutely void of offence, leading lives of good repute among their neighbours. The husband, the head of the family, is taken possession of and sent to Ireland. His wife knows there is nothing against him, but she does not like to go out. She cannot go to buy her moods in the shops. She is ashamed to meet her neighbours. After all this pain and injustice has been caused, are the Government officials to wipe out the whole matter without giving these people any chance of raising an action? We contend that the Home Secretary gets off very cheaply if the Bill provides that no criminal action is to be instituted, but we cannot say that no civil action should be instituted, because a civil action would enable these people to show that they are not ashamed to stand up and prove in open court that they are innocent. As things stand, the decision has already been given against them, because we were told in this House that no fiction was taken to deport any of them until the Home Secretary was satisfied that there was abundant primâ facie evidence to show that they were criminals or potential criminals. Their names must now be cleared, and their names have not been cleared yet. Even those who have been released are lying under a cloud of doubt and difficulty, and they know not when, for the second time, the Government is going to lay hands upon them and put them in prison on this side.
It may seem a trivial thing that small people should think so much of their own good name, but I ask the Committee to consider the pain and the shame caused by many of the acts of the Government during the past five years. Think of girls and young ladies being arrested at 3 o'clock in the morning, put in prison and kept there for three months without trial, although it became known that, at the time certain acts alleged against them were committed, they were teaching in schools, that a whole school-full of children could testify that Miss So-and-So could not possibly have had any complicity in certain acts charged against her. These are the cruelties of the situation. These are cruelties the commission of which has been forced upon the police by the Government, and it is only fair that all these people should have an opportunity of saying to the Government, "You have charged us, and we say you have charged us falsely. We are not content with any general kind of whitewashing, but we must have the power and the opportunity of taking the Homo Secretary into Court, so that he may say his very worst and prove all those things which he insinuated from the Front Bench many weeks ago."
That is the only way in which we, can preserve any semblance of liberty in this country. In war conditions—in the conditions induced by the Sinn Fein agitation in this country, liberty has to a great extent become a name, so far as small people are concerned. For such of those people as have been mixed up in politics, liberty, to a great extent, has gone, and the only cure and the only guarantee for the future is that the Home Secretary should be well rapped over the fingers in a political sense for the thing he has done. That can only be secured by making this Amendment in the Bill, leaving it open to any person, no matter how small or weak or unimportant he or she may be, to take a civil action. If I may refer to a play which everyone within the sound of my voice knows very well, I would recall the case of the man who had made a bond and who claimed his bond before the judge. His bond was granted to him —a pound of flesh to be cut off nearest the heart—but if, in the cutting of that flesh, he shed one drop of blood he would have gone beyond his bond. That having been made clear to him, the bondholder wished to depart, but the judge said, "Tarry a little: not so fast," and then pointed out to him that, under an ancient Statute of Venice, if anyone conspired against the life or liberty of any subject, the goods of such a one were to be held forfeit. I think that is an absolutely parallel case. If the Home Secretary says the evidence which he holds is abundant primâ facie evidence against these people, then he is bound to make good his words. If not, then he is guilty of conspiring against the lives and liberties of certain poor people and, for these reasons, I hope the Committee will see fit to make this Amendment.
If my hon. Friend will tarry a little, I think he will see that very few hon. Members can support this Amendment. What my hon. Friend is seeking to do is to say that legal proceedings shall be possible in the civil Courts against all persons concerned in this matter. I can quite understand his complaint against the Home Secretary. But speaking from those benches, does he ask the Committee not to indemnify, for instance, all the police officers and the other servants who carried out the orders of the Home Secretary? I should have thought that, at any rate, those persons who simply acted under official orders, should be indemnified. Yet if this Amendment were passed, all those servants of the Crown would be open to proceedings in the civil Courts. The House by a large majority gave a Second Reading to the Bill, and that decision involved two important considerations. The first was that the Home Secretary and all the other officers and servants concerned should be indemnified, and this was subject to a very important condition. That condition was that those people who had suffered, should have an opportunity of bringing their full claims either before a jury or some competent authority. For my part, directly that condition was secured, that there should be no limitation in their claims and that they should have an opportunity of putting forward every conceivable circumstance they could, and of having their claims properly assessed, I thought it fairly met the situation. When that condition has been acceded to, I do not think there is any hon. Member who desires that civil proceedings should be permitted against the servants of the Crown, and for that reason, among others, I think the Committee will decline to accept the Amendment.
In yesterday's Debate it was assumed in all quarters of the House that there should be an indemnity for all concerned. As far as I understand it, the position is this. The Home Secretary has undoubtedly made a mistake for which I personally am very sorry. He sought to exercise powers which should only have been exercised if there was no legal doubt about the matter whatsoever. That there was a legal doubt, is shown by the fact that he took the advice of the Law Officers of the Crown. He had the advice of the Law Officers, but a mistake was made and as it turned out it was an unforutnate mistake. As a matter of fact our Law Courts rest on mistakes. In 50 per cent, of the cases which are tried, the lawyers who advise on one side are wrong or there would be no litigation at all. Personally, I am very sorry that Mr. Attorney-General should have been unlucky in this particular case, but the point I wish to take is this, that at least the Home Secretary had the advantage of the advice of the two most eminent lawyers in the land. There are cases which frequently arise of magistrates who seek to exercise powers which they do not possess. In those cases civil proceedings are taken against them, and they are held personally responsible for the transaction. In that case they have not the advantage of the advice of the eminent lawyers of the land, but only the advice of the frequently underpaid magistrates' clerk.
Again, it frequently happens that, in good faith, a guardian of the poor does not, in point of fact, vote on a resolution, but does perform the domestic act of signing a cheque to pay a bill, and when the Government auditor comes down, goes through the accounts, and finds that that payment was illegal, that guardian, who again has not the advantage of the advice of Mr. Attorney-General, is made personally responsible for the transaction. The importance which I see about this present transaction is this, that if it is to go forth to magistrates, to guardians, and, indeed, —more important still—to workers generally in this country, that men in the highest position, having the advantage of the advice of the most eminent lawyers in the land, can interfere with the freedom of the people, and that then all that they have to do is to rush into this House and pass through an Act indemnifying themselves, that is unfair to people who have not the advantages which the Ministers of the Crown have in this case. It is for that reason that I shall vote for the Amendment while the Bill stands in its present form.
This is the first Amendment moved, and generally it is recognised that this is an exceptional Bill. Are we, therefore, to understand that, on this first of dozens of Amendments, when serious arguments have been advanced in its favour, we are to have no reply from the Government? I think courtesy at least demands that we should have some reply, and when none was offered we assumed that the Government were going to accept the Amendment. Here is an Amendment that endeavours to give effect to all the kind things that were stated about the Home Secretary. Everyone feels that he made a mistake, but no one desires to see him in gaol. My hon. Friend behind me, the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), has experienced the horrors of gaol life, and in discussing it with him we visualised the position of the Home Secretary. My hon. Friend went into details with me of all that the Home Secretary would have to go through if, unfortunately, he were sent to gaol, and we both came to the conclusion, much as we feel that the Home Secretary has made a mistake, that it would be horrible to contemplate that he should go through the experience of my hon. Friend. I give that as a general indication that, while we are endeavouring to secure the liberty of the subject, we certainly do not want to be hard on the Home Secretary, but we must insist upon our rights when a serious Amendment is submitted, with all the serious and almost legal arguments of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cathcart (Captain Hay), supplemented by the legal knowledge of the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. F. Gray), and we are entitled to know from those in charge of the Bill what is their opinion of the Amendment.
There is no desire that my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) or any of those associated with him should be deprived of the opportunity of hearing what our view is. I was only waiting to hear whether it was a serious Amendment before one dealt with the arguments in favour of it. I may say at once, to relieve my right hon. Friend's anxiety, that the Government do not propose to accept the Amendment, and I do not know that I could do better than begin by adopting the, arguments which my hon. Friend the Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) put forward, which seemed to me in themselves quite conclusive against the Amendment. I cannot think that there is any large body of opinion in this House which would desire to make every person who, acting under orders, took part in these arrests or deportations personally liable for damages which the Habeas Corpus Act, I think, inflicts at a minimum of £500, and if this Amendment were carried, that would be the result. My right hon. Friend the Member for Derby indicated that his kindly spirit was shocked at the thought of the Home Secretary having to endure criminal punishment, and that therefore he supported the Amendment, but, to be logical, he ought to have voted for the Second Heading of the Bill, because the Amendment does not exempt the Home Secretary from criminal liability. That is done by the Bill. The Amendment prevents his being exempted from civil liability.
The Mover of the Amendment gave two reasons why he wished the Committee to adopt it, and the first was in order that the Home Secretary might be punished. With great respect to the hon. and gallant Member, I do not believe that that is the wish of the Committee. I do not believe that they intend that the Home Secretary shall be punished for what the great majority of Members believe to have been a perfectly honest mistake, arrived at on advice as to his legal powers which, unfortunately, has been decided since to be erroneous. Therefore, I do not think I need at length labour the answer to that reason. The other reason which was put forward by the hon. and gallant Member was the fact that the deportees who had sustained damage ought to have a chance of recovering that damage, and that this Bill would take away from them that opportunity. That is a perfectly legitimate argument to bring forward, and it is because the Government recognise that, that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, in moving the Second Reading of the Bill yesterday, stated that there was every intention of providing for compensation for the deportees in respect of an action which was felt to be illegal, and that my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal, in winding up the Debate last night, stated that the principles upon which that compensation was to be given were to be that these people were to have all the compensation to which they were entitled at common law. I use the words "at common law" to exclude, or course, the statutory penalty of £500.
That applies only to compensation, but what about clearing the character of those who have really nothing against them? It is a question not only of compensation, but of rehabilitation in the eyes of their fellows.
The only form in which anybody can be rehabilitated in a Court of Justice is by pecuniary award, and in fact, as the hon. and gallant Member will see if he looks at the Amendments that we are putting down to provide for compensation, the provision is that there is going to be a tribunal to assess compensation, which will have the ordinary powers of hearing witnesses and of conducting a hearing in the ordinary way, and, therefore, there will be exactly the same method of rehabilitation as is given by any ordinary hearing in any ordinary court of law.
Will the tribunal sit in public?
Yes. Mr. SIMPSON: With a jury?
There will be no jury. I do not propose at this stage to explain the exact form of my Amendments or the reasons that induced the Government to put them forward, because I doubt very much whether I should be in order in doing so.
I hope I may ask the Attorney-General, apart from the question of Order, not to do so now, because I hope that there will be a willingness, when the time comes, on the part of the Government to modify the terms of their proposals.
Of course, there will be a willingness to accept any suggestion that is deemed reasonable, but I was not going to deal with those proposals at this moment. I had to refer to them now, because they constitute the answer to the second argument of the Mover of the Amendment, namely, that there is no opportunity for the deportees to rehabilitate themselves or to recover compensation. That opportunity ought to be afforded to them if they have been unjustly dealt with, and that opportunity is going to be afforded to them by the provisions which the Government propose to ask the Committee to introduce when it comes to the proper place in the Bill. We do not propose to leave the civil remedy, as it would be if this Amendment were carried, because that would involve, first of all, as I have pointed out, a personal liability on everybody who was concerned in carrying out these orders, including, of course, the Home Secretary, and I do not think the Committee would wish that.
Further, it would involve the continuance of the penalty damages given by the Habeas Corpus Act, 1679, of £500 minimum, with treble costs, which, again, I do not think would be a reasonable provision to maintain when one remembers that there may, at any rate, be cases in which the tribunal, whichever it is, may think that some of the deportees, although there was no legal justification for the arrest in any event, yet had committed acts which would be proved to have tendered them liable to an even severer penalty than that of deportation. I do not say that there are such cases, but we want to provide that the compensation so fits the damage done that, in cases where there really is a blameless person who has suffered grave indignity and loss, he shall recover substantial damages, and in cases where there has been a person who has been actively engaged in treasonable practices against the Crown, he shall not recover substantial damages for what, after all, in that event would be only a technical wrong. Therefore, we wish to provide for compensation, not in the way suggested by this Amendment, and I sug- gest to the Committee, for the reasons I have given, that the Amendment would not carry out the real object at which we desire to arrive.
5.0 P.M.
If the Bill remained in its present form and did not, before it left the Committee, contain adequate provisions for the compensation of the persons who have been affected, I should be very much disposed to support an Amendment such as this. The difficulty that the Committee is in really arises from the necessary rule of order that we should begin at the beginning and, therefore, cannot deal with the proposals for providing adequate compensation till a little later on, and the view which I should have been disposed myself to take is this. We have already had an Instruction moved, and accepted, which shows that the Government are preparing the way for making proposals by way of adequate compensation. I do not know whether it may not be also necessary for them to make proposals slightly to enlarge the Title of the Bill, but I presume they are prepared to take any necessary steps of that sort, and if, as the result of their proposals, amended as they may have to be by the Committee, we, really get adequate compensation secured on proper terms for the people who are affected, then I think there will be a good many people who will feel that that will make a great deal of difference to this part of the Bill. Therefore for my part—I do not know whether those who take an interest in this particular Amendment have the same view—but for my part I should be disposed to wait. If by the time the Committee stage is over there has been no adequate provision for compensation, then on the Report stage I should join with many other people in resisting the indemnification of the officials so far as civil proceedings are concerned. I think it would be much better that we should get ample compensation provided by an Amendment in the Bill. Whatever we may say about the Home Secretary or the Attorney-General or other high and distinguished persons, I do not think that any one would want to bring civil actions against the policeman who, acting under orders of his superiors, took these people to and from the railway station, or it may be the railway guard who knew that these people were there in order to be removed by order of the Home Office and who helped to forward them to Holywood, or it may be some sailor who took part in moving them across the gangway and putting them into the ship. As things stand, all these poor people may be liable to be shot at, although it would be much better that they should be shot at and that the Government should provide them with some compensation than that the people who nave been injured should not be compensated, yet let us wait at this stage and see the proposals for compensation which the Government bring forward, and whether they are really satisfactory and adequate.
I think all of us would like to respond to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), but unhappily we do not all see this matter exactly as he sees it, and as the hon. and learned Attorney-General sees it. As I understand it, all these people are entitled to sue under a very old Act, and I am astonished to find that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, because that is a very old Act, are rather inviting us to put it on one side, and to say that it ought not to apply to modern conditions. I would accept that if, when old Acts are brought into play against workmen or agitators of whom they disapprove, they held the same theory, but they do not do anything of the kind. In my own person I was apprehended under the Act of Richard II. I was
This idea that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley conjures up, and that the learned Attorney-General conjures up, and which I think the Noble Lord also put last night, was that you do not want to punish the innocent constable or the inspector or the guard on the railway, or the mate of the ship or the captain of the ship for carry- ing out orders given to them by their lawful superiors. It is as easy for this House to pass a Bill to pay all these fines for these persons as it is to pass this Indemnity Bill we are now discussing. There is no reason why any constable should have to pay. why even the Home Secretary should have to pay if this House thinks none of them ought to pay. But the people I am concerned about are the people you are to rob of their rights to get what the Act of Richard II says they ought to have. [HON. MEMBERS: "The Act of Charles II !"] I think you are setting a very bad precedent indeed in saying that when it affects a number of people like this an Act of Parliament shall not apply. It ought to apply, and Parliament, if it wants to save the money and the property of the Home Secretary and the other people who acted under his orders, ought to find the money so to do.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley said that the Government had intimated what they proposed to do. As I understand it, they are to take away from all these people their right under the Statute Law and you are to give them a right not to go before the Court but a right to go before a new tribunal to decide on what the law already says they are entitled to. They have to go before a new body to get the rights they are entitled to. I venture to say that would never have been done in the case of compensating some landlord or some big authority in this country whose property was being interfered with. I am quite certain that the rights that are held by certain people in this country would never be interfered with in that fashion, but you are proposing to interfere with these people's rights. Even this afternoon you had a case in point where somebody has sold an annuity and someone who has nothing whatever to do with it is still getting that annuity. It seems to me that the House of Commons is about to land itself in an extraordinary position. You are bound to admit, because the Courts have forced you to admit it, that the Attorney-General, the Home Secretary, and a whole crowd of people committed an illegal outrage against over 100 people. Now the Attorney-General has opened the mind of the Government to us just now. He says that some of these people are accused of something they may have done or may not have done, and that they are not entitled to have the compensation which the Act says they ought to have. I think that is a discrimination that is an outrage. It has nothing to do with this House what these people may or may not have done. If I were the biggest criminal unhung, you have no right to act illegally against me. You have your proper remedy in the Court, and that is the only legal way in which you can deal with me. You have no right to say "Let us take away from this man what the law gives for his protection." It will be easy to rake up a case against these men, but up to this moment no real charges have been put against any of them who have been taken before the magistrate. You have not yet filled up the charge sheets even of the men you have taken there.
These men presumably, and possibly there are women there, too, are to be disallowed the right of getting the compensation, and the money which, after all, can never wipe out the stain that has been put upon them. You propose to take away the right to give them that money, because presumably they were guilty of breaking the law, which you also have broken. The people who are concerned here are poor people. £500 and treble damages or costs seems an extraordinarily large amount of money to give to some of these people, but I do not know if the Attorney-General and the Home Secretary, towards whom we are asked to have such tender feelings, are aware of the fact that by their action they robbed these people of their livelihood, and £500 in all probability would not see them through, until they get new employment. The labour market is not so easy as it was a year or two ago. It is more difficult to get work than it was at any previous time. There are women concerned in this business, and when they come before the Committee, whatever it is—it will probably be made up mainly of lawyers, who will judge it from the legal point of view—no one can tell what amount of compensation will be given these people by the tribunal that it is proposed to set up. I think the Home Secretary will get off very easy indeed if he is relieved of criminal liability. I think that is all he should be relieved of, and if the House of Commons wants to relieve him of all the civil liability, then the House of Commons ought to find the money. But it ought not to rob the people who have a claim under this old Statute of one penny of their just rights.
Now I want to say a word or two about the criminal side of this business. Speaking for myself, and for lots of my hon. Friends round about me, I may say that we have been accustomed to the workshop, to the office, to the market-place and the prison. We know all about prisons, and we know that you get into prison quite as good men as are outside the prison. We know perfectly well that the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary would be as uncomfortable there as I was. I am not sure that he is not a, little younger than me, but it is not much one way or another, and I am sure he would be very uncomfortable in prison. We do not want to put him there. But we are very charitable to him, and the deportees are very charitable to him for not having a big fight put up on this matter. I have had to sit in Court and listen to judges telling me how sorry they were for me, how much they regretted having to send me down, but they sent me down nevertheless, and other people with me. They would do it again. When the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General gets on the Bench, as he will in time, he will be delivering these lectures to Communists and Socialists who are brought before him.
The hon. Gentleman is travelling somewhat wide of the question.
I want to bring the point home to the right hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General. We are very charitable to the Home Secretary for not giving him some of the same kind of medicine that was given to us. Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite are sticklers for the letter of the law. We are willing that he should break both the letter and the spirit of the law so far as criminal proceedings are concerned, but, in spite of the appeal of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley, we are not willing that these deportees should be denied their rights to the fullest compensation. We want them to get everything that the Act of Richard II can give them.
The Act of Charles II you mean!
What does it really matter? If you want me to prove my argument, I will prove it from the Act of Charles II. There have been hundreds of poor shopkeepers sent to prison for selling newspapers on Sunday, and they have been sent under the Act of Charles II. I never heard whether the right hon. Gentleman protested against that. I am sure that a considerable amount of the punishment that can be obtained under that can be obtained under the Act of Richard II. I cannot give the Latin for it; I shall not attempt to do so. But the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General knows it perfectly well, and knows what it says about the "pains and penalties" involved. He knows also that if it were poor people that were concerned here who had broken the law, you would not have any indemnity brought in. It is because of that that I hope my hon. Friends, and also hon. Gentleman below the Gangway on this side, will go into the Lobby when the time comes and vote that when we are relieving the Home Secretary by an Indemnity Bill from suffering the sort of punishment that he has meted out to the deportees who he alleges broke the law, when we relieve him of the obligations to these people, that at the same time we shall see that these people shall have the fullest benefit that the law, however old, entitles them to receive in a matter of this sort.
There are many men who came from the Glasgow area who were involved in this, and on this question of compensation I ask the Government Benches seriously to consider what it all means to them. If we are to compensate and to secure a member of the Government by a Bill, the only reason for bringing in that Bill being the protection of the Home Secretary—though we do not specify any limits to that protection—on the same ground I suggest very seriously and strongly that the same measure of justice should be meted out to the men and women who have already suffered so much. We are not now discussing whether what was done was right or wrong. The law has already established that fact, because they have been released. We are not attempting legally to discuss this, for the legal action has now been found to be wrong by the highest Court of Appeal. That being so, the question of compensation for those who were deported, must, I suggest, go on the same basis as in the Bill which seeks to protect the Home Secretary.
We have had amongst those deportees men who have been engaged in business for 20 years or more. We want to have the same assurance that these men who have been in business are not going to be done out of their compensation or have it dealt out to them in that parsimonious way it is usual to mete compensation out to what are called the working classes, that is to say, the shopkeeper or the man in the factory. What we are anxious about is that the Government shall give us their word first, and then put that assurance into the Bill, so that there will be no getting at the back of it, so that whatever compensation is to be given shall be based on the ratio, first, on what the man or woman has personally suffered, and, secondly, the effect on their lives as business men on account of their deportation to Ireland. Let me instance a man in business. He has been in that business, say, for 21 years. He lives in one of the respectable localities of a great city. When he returns what happens? The people around him have only the Press to guide them in this matter, and they begin by boycotting the man's shop. They follow that up by not allowing their children to speak to the children of this poor man. Compensation in that case is not to be measured by so many days in prison, and so much loss in business. It must be measured in multiple of the things I have mentioned, and the goodwill of the business, and so on. That is the only compensation that can be offered to these people who are now suffering in their business because of their deportation. Assessing the amount of damage done to a man and his business while he was in prison and his sufferings there is something that cannot be measured by months, or perhaps years.
During the Recess I have seen one of these men, and have been in close personal contact with him. I noted that that man who used to be a powerful man with a fine physique and strong mentally, was now, from the fact that he had been wrongfully deported, weak physically, and mentally seems to be suffering from what I think everyone would call shock. How are you going to compensate that man? We demand in this Bill that there shall be unmistakable language used, that everything in the form of compensation that is possible shall be put into the Bill, so that the man in the first instance personally, and then, secondly in his business, shall be given all to which he is entitled. You are bound to take the business, to take what it would fetch on sale or transference from compulsion, and according to the rules of the area of the city in which it may be supposed to be, and also whether the man has had 10, 12, or 15 years at it. I come now to the man who was working in the factory, or on the railway, or for a private employer. The whole idea that has always been behind compensation in cases like this has been to say that this man has lost so many weeks' work, and that if you pay him for those weeks' loss, and perhaps add a £10 note—
The hon. Member cannot go into the question of the principle of the compensation to be paid. He is quite entitled to argue whether it should be paid through the ordinary Courts or some special tribunal, but he cannot go into the details of the compensation to be paid.
That is the difficulty, Mr. Hope. The Attorney-General intimated, in the course of his reply to the Amendment we are now discussing, the line upon which compensation would be based. He did not indicate the amount, but he showed that the Government intended to meet the situation by the creation of a tribunal, etc. Surely my hon. Friend is entitled to point out in reply to that that the tribunal cannot, from the nature of things, take the step of excluding the penalty which is prescribed by law? He is entitled to give reasons, as he is endeavouring to do now, of things that the tribunal could not possibly take into consideration. I submit that my hon. Friend is entirely in order, inasmuch as when the Attorney-General, replying on this particular Amendment, himself laid down the basis of the tribunal, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) appealed to us to withdraw this Amendment until we knew more definitely the basis of compensation. We could not withdraw the Motion, and my hon. Friend is entitled, I respectfully submit, to give the reasons why we could not possibly withdraw it; the reasons he is giving are, I suggest, entirely relevant.
With respect to the Attorney-General, I was on the point of interrupting him and calling him to order when he himself changed his line of argument. I quite admit the difficulty of the position, but I am afraid the hon. Member is going beyond the rules of debate. We cannot have the same discussion twice. The hon. Member is perfectly entitled to say that the present Courts should operate in view of the uncertainty of the position, but when it comes to going into the smaller details, then he is getting beyond what is allowable.
I was dealing with the assessment of the personal compensation.
I quite saw that. But that is out of order here. It will be perfectly in order when we come to the Amendment of the Attorney-General.
In continuance of what I was saying—[HON. MEMBKRS: "Hear, hear!"]—but keeping in order, I still would like to take the man's sufferings from deportation. The compensation in that case has been mentioned here. I suggest that the better way would be not a Select Committee, but for a Committee composed of Members made up from different parts of the House. Something on those lines might meet the whole case, so far as I am concerned. Let me go back for a moment. There are these men who have been shipped to Ireland. Take a man with a wife with seven or eight children. There is no chance for him in Ireland for various reasons. Having made a mistake, and deported these men and women, the Home Secretary and others concerned should, first, have the courage, and, secondly, the honesty and sense of justice to say that every man and woman they have arrested shall have such compensation that will meet every detail of their case. It should not be placed on the shoulders of the returned deportees to have to go to law, to incur that expense before they can get justice. This ought to come automatically from the Bill.
What the Attorney-General has said is likely to put the Com- mittee into a difficulty. I am not a lawyer; I am a layman. But I have been in Court many times, and have seen from the first the drafting of this Bill turned down in Court. The Bill, as I read it, is introduced for the purpose of prohibiting the institution and prosecution of legal proceedings in respect of action taken under the Restoration of Order Ireland Regulations. That is the substance of the Bill. What does it mean? It means that you take away the civil rights of these persons under the existing law! I want to put a question to the Attorney-General. Assuming this Bill is passed, inasmuch as it is already enacted on the Statute Book, can you prevent any individual from still going into the Law Courts without rescinding the existing Act of Parliament? I say this Bill will not do that, and as long as the existing Act is in operation this Bill does not repeal it, and the individual will still have that right of action.
I want to contrast the Amendment of the Labour party with the treatment which is usually meted out to companies. We intend to leave out of this Measure any action of a criminal character against the Home Secretary. If we had been vindictive and anxious to prosecute individuals merely for prosecution's sake we should have insisted upon the Home Secretary being dealt with in a criminal fashion. If any poor person or any member of my constituency had acted in the same criminal fashion as the Home Secretary has acted, hon. Members opposite and the Government would have had no hesitation in criminally prosecuting them. As a matter of fact, it is being argued in connection with this Bill that ignorance of the law is an excuse. Here we have a right hon. Gentleman who is supposed to have the best legal knowledge in the country coming forward with a Bill which asks us to enact that ignorance of the law is a reason for not being prosecuted.
We have no wish to be vindictive. Some of us have either been to prison ourselves or our immediate relatives have been to prison, and we represent divisions where a number of people have spent some time in prison. I know a number of my constituents who have been to prison, and I want to say that I do not wish even with any hatred I may have of hon. Members opposite to see them treated in the same way as some of my constituents have been treated. My party argue that the Home Secretary should not be criminally treated, and I think that ought to bring from the Government bench something of a quid pro quo or something in the nature of a compromise. I think this ought to make hon. Members opposite more lenient, and they ought to mete out better treatment to people affected by this Bill. In my constituency one man who was arrested has a character as good as any hon. Member of this House. He was employed with a railway company in Scotland for over 20 years. He has contributed regularly to his friendly society and to his trade union, and his immediate neighbours the shopkeepers, the clergymen and the school teachers have nothing but the highest character to give to that man and his family. Here we have this man taken away from his six children, one of whom is a cripple. He was taken away and separated from them in the middle of the night, without either excuse or reason being given, and even the local police apologised for what they had to do, and the Chief Constable of the City of Glasgow abhorred the action he was called upon to perform. Here you have this man torn away from his wife and family, and yet we have the Attorney-General proposing to deal with such men in this miserable fashion. I contrast that with the treatment we are proposing under this Amendment. We propose to leave out the word "criminal," because we do not wish to be vindictive towards the Home Secretary. It is no use arguing whether this case was right or wrong. It was wrong because the Courts have said so.
It is no good telling us fairy stories about what these men were supposed to he doing. The man about whom I am speaking has resisted the law, but he has as clean a character with regard to citizenship as any of those who are associated with the Government. This man has been 20 years with a railway company, and he never lost a day through any fault of his own, and yet he cannot get back to his work because his former employers say that he is a wicked person and he has been refused work. I. listened to hon. Members opposite when Lord Shaw's Committee was going into the question of compensation, and they constantly put questions urging the payment of decent compensation to those people. Here is a man who has been refused work by his former employers, whose family has suffered in a thousand and one ways, and now it is proposed to deal with him in a way which is not worthy of the Government of this country. If this man had been an Earl or a Duke who had had his property destroyed howls would have come from hon. Members opposite demanding compensation. This man had been employed continuously for 20 years by a railway company, but what does that matter? His wife and six children are considered of no account. This is only another illustration of how vindictive and how cruel the Government can be to members of the working class. I hope this Amendment will be adopted, and that all hon. Members on this side of the Committee will vote solidly in favour of it.
I feel that we as a House of Commons have no right to put those people who have been wronged into a position worse than they were in before according to the law of the land. These people have suffered a certain wrong, and this Amendment will secure for them what they ought to have, namely, civil damages which they will be able to obtain in a court of law. We have had various statements made with regard to the compensation which these people may obtain. It has been suggested that what they have lost in the way of employment and physical suffering may be made up to them if they go before a tribunal and are able to convince the members of that tribunal that they have suffered those damages. What I want to insist upon is that that does not meet the case. Those people in a court of law would not be judged as to whether they had suffered certain loss of employment or certain physical hardships and had their health impaired, but the court of law would have taken account of the fact that they had been subject to outrage. I want to press this Amendment in order that these poor people shall not be placed in an unfair position. This Bill gets the Home Secretary and the Secretary for Scotland out of difficulties into which they were placed owing to the bad legal advice they took in this connection.
I remember, when some of us suggested grave doubts as to the legality of these proceedings, a distinguished Member of this House said that the proceedings the Government were taking were terrible, and the Attorney-General got up and taunted that hon. Member and said there was nothing terrible about it. At least there is this terrible about it, and it is the position in which the Home Secretary and the Secretary for Scotland have got on account of the advice of the Attorney-General. If it is the business of the Government to get those Members of the Government out of the difficulties they have got into, they have no right to put the unfortunate victims of bad law on the part of the Attorney-General or anyone else into an inferior position. I do not believe that by allowing them to go to this tribunal, whose decisions will be final, that these people are going to have their rights adequately secured.
We have had experience of Government tribunals before, and I do not think the treatment meted out to other people suffering under a grievance in the community, and the compensation given to people who have put forward their claims before such tribunals, justifies us in agreeing that these people are likely to have their rights secured in this way. I press for this Amendment because if these people go into the ordinary courts of law we have sufficient confidence in the impartiality of juries and in the directions of our Judges to know that they will get justice, and they will get the remedy of their grievances that they ought to have. I do not believe it is possible in any other way for these people who have been wronged to get full satisfaction, but I believe if the House grants the. Home Secretary and the Secretary for Scotland relief from criminal proceedings that we shall have gone very far towards removing them from the difficult position in which they are placed to-day. We decided, I understand, on the Second Reading of the Bill, to grant them some measure of relief, and I hope that we are not going to go on granting them relief at the expense of their unfortunate victims. Unless the Government can show us that the tribunal which they propose to set up is going to afford to these people who have been wronged the protection that they would have obtained in the ordinary courts of law in a civil action, I do not see how we on this side of the House can do anything else than press for this Amendment and hope that it will be carried.
I beg to submit to the Committee considerations rather from a practical than merely from a political point of view. In the first place, I submit that the Amendment put forward from this side really restores to the Indemnity Act its correct as well as its impartial character. If it is to be an Act of Indemnity, surely we are not supposed to legislate for the partial benefit of a few citizens to the detriment of other citizens. Why not indemnify everyone who has suffered from these erroneous measures? It is not merely the Home Secretary, it is not merely the police constables, it is not merely the Government officers who have been put into wrong or have suffered from these errors and are seeking relief. There are 112 victims. Why not indemnify them, and make this a real Act of Indemnity, giving an indemnity to everyone from the effects of this most unfortunate and precipitate action that the Home Secretary was misled into taking under faulty advice? From this point of view I suggest that, in order to make the Indemnity Act complete, the Government ought to allow this kind of civil action to be taken.
I will urge another point, as to the difference between allowing the sufferers to take action under an existing and well-established law and their taking action under some new and unknown and speculative law. Of these 112 sufferers the-majority, almost all, are people of very limited means—people without means, we may say. It is impossible for many of them to spend money speculatively on legal advice and on counsel, to go speculatively before a new tribunal and take their chance whether they will get their reward or whether they will be penalised by having to pay a higher cost than the reward they get. Under the established law they know their position. It would be more or less a formal action, an inexpensive action, both to the State and to the individual sufferers; it would be a nominal action. People know exactly, under the well-defined law, what their rights are. There is very little legal argument to be proceeded with, and in that way we not only simplify the position of the sufferers but rendor it far happier and give them a greater amount of justice than by throwing them on the mercy of an unknown tribunal, to take their chance of fighting out a lawsuit, the result of which they would not know.
There is another consideration. I sup pose the Committee now realise that we are all chastened, that the opinions of the lawyers are, after all, not infallible, or, at least, have been several times in conflict with the opinions of other lawyers. A few weeks ago the position was considered to be unshakeable at law, in spite of all the warnings given even by some competent lawyers from the Labour Benches, who had developed a sense, not only of seeing the law but even of seeing the people's point of view, after belonging to the people's party. We had it pointed out then that there was some chance of the law being faulty. I submit again to the same lawyers that even this Indemnity Act may in itself still be a legal delusion. I still doubt the legality of this Act of Indemnity itself. I still would submit—
The hon. Member seems to me to be raising a broader question than that dealt with in the Amendment.
I am coming to the Amendment. I submit that the real indemnity to the Home Secretary will come not by this Act forced upon the people but that it can only come by the mutual consent of the sufferers.
That is really quite outside the Amendment. I must ask the hon. Member to confine himself to the question of criminal and civil proceedings.
I am submitting that, if the sufferers are given the protection which is sought in this Amendment, then they would be an agreeable party to accepting the position which is offered to them. If the Government will not accept this Amendment, and will force an issue upon the sufferers, then they will be inviting trouble again by inducing the sufferers to challenge the validity of this very Act, which seems to be in defiance of certain sections of the original Habeas Corpus Act, which does not permit the King, or his heirs, executors or officers to set aside the punishment or indemnity levied under the Habeas Corpus Act.
That would be a relevant argument on the Second or Third Reading, but not on this Amendment.
I submit to your ruling. To cut the argument short, I submit that, if the Labour party's Amendment, as it is now suggested in the most friendly spirit to the Government, be accepted, it is only then that the Government officers will get the indemnity that they are seeking. If they a-re seeking a one-sided indemnity by depriving the sufferers of their rights, they will provoke a fight once again on the part of the sufferers and they will themselves suffer.
The hon. Member is repeating arguments which I have ruled out of order. I must ask him either to come to the Amendment or to resume his seat.
I have finished.
I should like to reply to a point of view that was put by the Attorney-General, and also, I believe, by the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood). The regard for civil proceedings against members of the police service who have carried out the instructions of the Home Secretary cannot, I think, be accepted by the Committee as a real reason why the Government should not accept this Amendment. No one is more concerned than I am that an officer acting under the authority of the Home Secretary should not be unduly punished, but experience has shown that, where a police officer has carried out a duty contrary to the law of the land, a legal enactment already exists whereby the local authority, or the police authority in the Metropolitan Police District, may meet claims for compensation that might be made against that particular police officer.
If the hon. Member will permit me, that is no answer to any action for criminal proceedings. That is the difficulty.
The Amendment only proposes to delete the criminal proceedings, and to allow the aggrieved persons to take the necessary civil proceedings to enable them to receive compensation for the injuries that have been inflicted upon them. There is an instruction issued from the Home Office itself with regard to the responsibility of police in matters of this kind, and that instruction is that in no circumstances should an arrest be made unless there is statutory authority for the arrest, and also that no arrest should be made unless credible evidence is likely to be forthcoming that will sustain the charge. In this matter I think we are all agreed that, if there has been an honest mistake on the part of the Home Office, the question of civil proceedings ought not to be interfered with by this Bill. So far as criminal proceedings are concerned, I do not think that anyone desires that any person who has acted honestly, although mistakenly, should be proceeded against. If we allow civil proceedings to issue, we need not fear the imposition of penalties either upon the police officers or upon any other member of the community who may have carried out the various deportation orders, because, if we are to have a fund—and we are promised one in a subsequent Clause—that is going to deal with questions of compensation, why not leave the injured persons to their civil remedies? Then the Home Office, through the various Votes, can meet the claims for compensation that may be made upon their agents. Those hon. Members who are members of Watch Committees and Standing Joint Committees in the country will know perfectly well that claims are at times made upon those bodies for compensation to persons who have been
improperly arrested, and that claims have in fact been paid, and for very large amounts in many cases. Therefore, there is no reason why, under the existing law, the claims should not be met by the Home Office or by the local authorities from a grant from the Home Office, if the cases that are brought before the Courts indicate that there has been illegal arrest. There need be no fear, so far as the House of Commons is concerned, that the individual officer will have to suffer for any action he has taken under the instructions of the Home Secretary, who can, as he has already admitted, indicate that he accepts full responsibility for their action. The question of compensation, therefore, need not touch the individual officers or other servants concerned. I think it is rather pushing the matter too far to ask the Committee not to agree to this Amendment on those grounds. I hope that that point will be reconsidered, and that the aggrieved persons will be allowed to get their civil remedies, indicating, of course, that the police officers and other agents will not have to suffer, but that any claims against them will be borne by the Home Office or by the respective Votes that can be issued to cover the damages.
Question put, "That the word 'criminal' be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 147; Noes, 277.
Division No. 159.] AYES. [6.0 p.m. Adams, D. Edmonds, G. Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelity) Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) Hogge, James Myles Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Entwlstle, Major C. F. Irving, Dan Ammon, Charles George Falconer, J. John, William (Rhondda, West) Attlee, C. R. Foot, Isaac Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Gosling, Harry Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Barnes, A. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Berkeley, Captain Reginald Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Bonwick, A. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools) Broad, F. A. Groves, T. Lansbury, George Bromfield, William Grundy, T. W. Lawson, John James Brotherton, J. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Leach, W. Buchanan, G. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Lee, F. Burgess, S. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Linfield, F. C. Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Harbord, Arthur Lowth, T. Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Hardie, George D. Lunn, William Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Harney, E. A. MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Chapple, W. A. Harris, Percy A. M'Entee, V. L. Charleton, H. C. Hastings, Patrick McLaren, Andrew Clarke, Sir E. C. Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Hayday, Arthur Maxton, James Collins, Pat (Walsall) Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Middleton, G. Darbishire, C. W. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Morel, E. D. Davies, David (Montgomery) Herriotts, J. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Hill, A. Mosley, Oswald Duncan, C. Hillary, A. E. Muir, John W. Dunnico, H. Hinds, John Murnin, H. Ede, James Chuter Hirst, G. H. Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western) Sexton, James Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Nichol, Robert Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) O'Grady, Captain James Shinwell, Emanuel Webb, Sidney Oliver, George Harold Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Paling, W. Simpson, J. Hope Weir, L. M. Parker, H. (Hanley) Sitch, Charles H. Westwood, J. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Smith, T. (Pontefract) Wheatley, J. Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Snell, Harry Whiteley, W. Phillipps, Vivian Snowden, Philip Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Potts, John S. Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Pringle, W. M. R. Spoor, B. G. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Stephen, Campbell Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Riley, Ben Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Ritson, J. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Wintringham, Margaret Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Royce, William Stapleton Thome, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Saklatvala, S. Thornton, M. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Salter, Dr. A. Wallhead, Richard C. Mr. Morgan Jones and Mr. Neil Maclean.
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark) Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Hewett, Sir J. P. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Hilder, Lleut.-Colonel Frank Apsley, Lord. Curzon, Captain Viscount Hiley, Sir Ernest Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Davidson, J.C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Astor, Viscountess Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Dawson, Sir Philip Hood, Sir Joseph Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Hopkins, John W. W. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Doyle, N. Grattan Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Banks, Mitchell Edge, Captain Sir William Hudson, Capt. A. Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Edmondson, Major A. J. Hughes, Collingwood Barnett, Major Richard W. Ednam, Viscount Hume, G. H. Barnston, Major Harry Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Ellis, R. G. Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Bellairs, Commander Canyon W. England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hurd, Percy A. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Berry, Sir George Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) Betterton, Henry B. Falcon, Captain Michael Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Blades, Sir George Rowland Fawkes, Major F. H. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Blundell, F. N. Fermor-Hesketh, Major T. Jarrett, G. W. S. Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) Brass, Captain W. Flanagan, W. H. Jephcott, A. R. Brassey, Sir Leonard Foreman, Sir Henry Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Brittain, Sir Harry Forestier-Walker, L. Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. King, Captain Henry Douglas Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Furness, G. J. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Bruford, R. Galbraith, J. F. W. Lamb, J. Q. Bruton, Sir James Ganzonl, Sir John Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Buckingham, Sir H. Garland, C. S. Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Buckley, Lieut-Colonel A. Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Gilbert, James Daniel Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Goff, Sir R. Park Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Butcher. Sir John George Gray, Harold (Cambridge) Lorden, John William Button, H. S. Greaves-Lord, Walter Lorimer, H. D. Cadogan, Major Edward Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Lougher, L. Campion, Lieut;.-Colonel W. R. Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Lowe, Sir Francis William Cautley, Henry Strother Gretton, Colonel John Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Grigg, Sir Edward Lumley, L. R. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.) Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Guthrie, Thomas Maule Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (BIrm., W). Gwynne, Rupert S. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Margesson, H. D. R. Chapman, Sir S. Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Marks, Sir George Croydon Churchman, Sir Arthur Halstead, Major D. Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford) Clarry, Reginald George Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Clayton, G. C. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Mercer, Colonel H. Cobb, Sir Cyril Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Harrison, F. C. Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Cohen, Major J. Brunel Harvey, Major S. E. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hawke, John Anthony Molloy, Major L. G. S. Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Molson, Major John Elsdale Conway, Sir W. Martin Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh) Morris, Harold Cope, Major William Henn, Sir Sydney H. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Murchison, C. K. Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Sturrock. J. Leng Nail, Major Joseph Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Robertson-Despencer,Major(lsl'gt'nW) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Tubbs, S. W. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Turton, Edmund Russborough Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Reundell, Colonel R. F. Wallace, Captain E. Nield, Sir Herbert Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Norton-Griffiths, Lieut. Col. Sir John Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Russell, William (Bolton) Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Paget, T. G. Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Wells, S. R. Pease, William Edwin Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Penny, Frederick George Sandon, Lord White, Lt-Col. G. D. (Southport) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Willey, Arthur Perkins, Colonel E. K. Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Peto, Basil E. Shakespeare, G. H. Winfrey, Sir Richard Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray Shepperson, E. W. Winterton, Earl Price, E. G. Shipwright, Captain D. Wise, Frederick Privett, F. J. Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Wolmer, Viscount Rae, Sir Henry N. Sinclair, Sir A. Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Raeburn, Sir William H. Skelton, A. N. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Raine, W. Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill (High Peak) Rankin, Captain James Stuart Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Spears, Brig-Gen. E. L. Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Rees, Sir Beddoe Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Yerburgh, R. D. T. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Stanley, Lord Reid, D. D. (County Down) Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Romer, J. R. Stockton, sir Edwin Forsyth Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Rentoul, G. S. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Reynolds, W. G. W. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-
I beg to move, after the word "instituted" ["shall be instituted in any Court"], to insert the words, "by a citizen of the Irish Free State."
We think there may be on the part of the right hon. Gentleman some sort of argument that citizens of the Irish Free State should not have a right to sue under the Statute that gives ordinary British citizens that right. We think it may be quite true that against some of those Irish Free State citizens the Ministry may have evidence which would convict of complicity in organising outrages against either this country or the people in Ireland, and we shall also, I think, agree that perhaps there was some substance, though I do not think I should admit it myself, in the request of the Irish Free State Government that citizens of that State who were residents in this country, conspiring against it, should be deported back to their own country. I think you may differentiate between the two sets of people who were dealt with by the Home Secretary in what has now been decided was an illegal manner. I mean that, while none of us would admit the right of the Home Secretary to deport a British citizen, we must admit that there is some substance in the argument that a friendly State, especially a Dominion of the Empire, would have the right to say to us, "Here are some of our citizens whom you are harbouring and who are using the hospitality of your part of the British Dominion to organise seditious conspiracy leading to violent actions against us, and therefore you ought to remove them out of your jurisdiction into ours." It is because we feel there is that doubt that we are moving this Amendment. It does not mean that we are satisved with the Clause down to this point. We are not, I think we all still feel that our Amendment which has just been defeated would have been the equitable thing, but, having been defeated on it, we still want to try to make the Clause operative only in so far as it relates to citizens of the Irish Free State. There cannot, I think, be any question that the bulk of those who were deported were citizens of this country in the sense that they owed no allegiance to the Free State, but only owed allegiance to the laws laid down by this House. They were not citizens in the sense of taking part in the election of the Free State Parliament. We think the House ought to discriminate. The House ought to consider the case of these men and women who are citizens of this country, and who, I think, have a greater claim, not for indulgence but for equitable treatment, to say nothing of legal treatment, at the hands of the British Government.
I have been assured by the right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) that all the Amendments moved from the opposite benches are serious ones, and therefore I suppose I must treat this as a serious Amendment; but I think the Mover of it could not have contemplated what would be the consequence of passing the Amendment or he would hardly have asked the Committee to accept it. The House yesterday decided, by passing the Second Reading of the Bill, that it was desirable to indemnify the Home Secretary, and those who acted Tinder his orders, from the consequences of having exceeded their legal powers. Two or three hon. Members opposite, this evening, have told us that such was their sympathy for the Home Secretary that they would not wish to see him suffer from criminal proceedings, although they would like to see a civil action brought against him. This Amendment, if carried, will destroy the indemnity given. The effect of the Bill, if the Amendment be carried will be that there will be no indemnity guaranteed to the Home Secretary or to anybody else. Only citizens of the Irish Free State will be prohibited from starting proceedings, and if any person who is not a citizen of the Irish Free State chose to institute proceedings, either civil or criminal, against the Home Secretary, or anybody who acted under the Home Secretary's orders, there would be no protection at all afforded by this Bill. The House affirmed quite emphatically yesterday its desire to give indemnity, and I cannot accept, and I do not think the Committee can accept, an Amendment which would take away that indemnity.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, after the word "person," to insert the words "who has acted in good faith."
May I assure the Attorney-General that, whatever opinion he may have formed about other Amendments, this is a perfectly serious Amendment. We have to remember that this Bill is so drafted as to extend protection, not only to the Home Secretary and those immediately around him, but to every person who has been in any way connected with these deportations. I do not vouch for the truth of the statements, but it certainly has been alleged by some of the deportees that the information upon which the action of the Home Secretary was taken was false, misleading and malicious. I am sure that it is not the wish of this Committee to extend its protection to anyone who has been guilty of bad faith in this matter. There are not only persons like the Home Secretary and his legal advisers implicated, but there are, in addition, the warders and the policemen who took these people away, and whom we should desire to protect. There are also included persons who may have acted as spies or common informers, and whom it might be possible to call to account in the Courts if this Bill were not so widely framed—persons whom the House would not wish to protect, if their motives were improper.
There is a great distinction between this Indemnity Bill and the previous Indemnity Bills which this House has had to consider. The late Attorney-General, in speaking on the Second Reading of the Bill, informed the House, and I have no doubt he was right in so informing it, that this Indemnity Bill was substantially based on the Indemnity Bills presented in 1801 and 1818. That makes my case the more strong, because those Indemnity Bills were based upon a situation which does not exist to-day. They were brought in as complementary to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. Since the Habeas Corpus Act had been suspended, the legality of the actions which were being indemnified could not be called into question. In the present case there has been no suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act; its operation was restricted by virtue of the particular Defence of the Realm Act Regulation, which was subsequently incorporated in the regulations made under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act, but the fundamental difference still persists that, whereas in the case of the former Indemnity Bills the action of the Ministers was legal, in this case it has never been pretended that they were anything but illegal. We have had the decision of the highest tribunal in the land that has been able to pronounce upon the matter, and they have said that the action of the Home Secretary and those connected with him was illegal from start to finish.
In these circumstances, we are entitled to treat the case as if it were the case of a trustee who comes to Court and asks for relief for a breach of trust. In cases of that kind—I believe I am stating the law accurately—what is demanded is called, in the language of the law, uberrima fidet. You have to show that you have, throughout, displayed the utmost good faith in everything that you have done, and I think that we should insist that the people who are being protected by this Bill should be capable of showing the same degree of good faith that we demand from trustees. As far as the Home Secretary and those immediately around him are concerned, there is no shadow of doubt about their good faith. We all know perfectly well, and it would be childish to contend that we did not know perfectly well, that the utmost good faith was displayed by the Home Secretary, the Attorney-General, and those who acted under them; but it is possible, and even probable, from what one knows of the odious profession of spy and common informer, that improper motives may have prompted the giving of information which has led to entirely innocent persons being arrested and deported, and it would be absolutely wrong for the Government to ask the House of Commons to pass a Bill which indemnifies people guilty of bad faith.
The hon. and gallant Member has a little exaggerated the effect and scope of the Bill. I should be very sorry to be advocating in this Committee or in the House a Bill which protected spies and informers, who had maliciously given false information, from any action which might lie in consequence of their conduct. I feel confident that I am speaking with the general assent of any lawyers in the House, that that is not and cannot be the effect of this Bill, because the action which the hon. and gallant Member refers to would necessarily be, not an action in respect of the order for deportation, but a common law action for damages for slander. In an action for damages for slander you would not recover, according to English law, by way of damages, anything which resulted from the wrongful action of the Home Secretary, because in that case there would be interposed between the original slander and the arrest or deportation the administrative act, which the Court has held to be illegal, of the Home Secretary.
Therefore, the slanderer would in no event be liable for those damages, but the slanderer, if he acted maliciously, would be liable in damages for having; made false statements about a person deported, and those damages could be what the lawyers understand as punitive damages, and therefore very heavy. This Bill would not afford any protection for a slanderer sued in that way. The statement of claim would be that he had, falsely and maliciously, spoken words respecting the plaintiff, and damages would be claimed. If the only defence to such an action was that there was an Act of Indemnity in respect of any order for deportation, the answer would be: "It is not in respect of that that I am claiming damages."
The words of the Bill are in respect of the issue of an Order and not in respect of an Order. Would it not be possible to urge as a defence that the words complained of were spoken in respect of the issue of and leading up to the issue of an Order and therefore protected by the Indemnity Bill?
No doubt it could be said that they led to the issuing of an Order, but that would not be an answer. The action has to be in respect of the issue of an Order. The action here could not be in respect of the-issue of an Order.
The Clause says
"or in respect of any act done for the purpose of carrying any such Order into effect or done in purport of exercise of any powers under the said Regulations."
That goes a great deal wider.
That is even further away from the alleged slander. The words of the Clause— quoted by the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) are there to protect the acts done
"for the purpose of carrying such Order"—
that is, the Order for deportation or internment—
"into effect, or done in purperted exercise of any powers under the said Regulations."
The Regulations give no powers, and do not purport to give powers, to any person to utter slander. The information given by a spy or common informer, which we may assume for the sake of argument is given maliciously, is information which could be just as well given whether the Regulations existed or not. The Regulations do not empower such persons to make statements either false or true. The Regulations give power to the Home Secretary to act in certain cases; but the spy or common informer is given no sort of power or right under Regulation 14B to give false or malicious information. The words which the hon. Member for Penistone has quoted are words designed, and I think calculated, to cover acts done by anybody in order to carry into effect an Order which has been made by the Home Secretary, or an act which is done in exercise or purported exercise of the powers given by the Regulations. The danger which the hon. and gallant Member who moved the Amendment wishes to safeguard, is the danger of somebody being protected not for having acted under powers given by the Regulations, but having acted independently of any Regulations at all before the Regulations were put into force, the result of which was that the Home Secretary, misled, acted in this illegal manner. That is not covered by this Bill of Indemnity. Anybody going carefully into the Bill will agree that no lawyer could successfully contend that if a slanderer had told a malicious lie to the Home Secretary, with the object of inducing him to act under Regulation 14B, then, because the Home Secretary acted under Regulation 14B, therefore a statement made to induce him to act under that Regulation was protected. There is nothing in the Bill which could have that effect.
Is not setting the machinery of the Regulation in motion an act in respect of the issue of an Order?
No, it is not.
It is the reason for it.
That is a different thing. If the words here were "any act which led to the issue of an Order" the hon. Member's fears might be well founded. We have carefully avoided any such, words. We deal with any action instituted against any person for or on account of or in respect of the issue of an Order. The action which the hon. and gallant Gentleman contemplates is an action for slander for having made a false statement. There would be a Statement of Claim drafted alleging that "Defendant on the blank day of blank falsely and maliciously spoke concerning the Plaintiff to the right hon. William Bridgeman the following words, 'John Jones is an Irish rebel and is conspiring against the State.' "
As I understand it, acts might have been done bona fide under this Regulation, and other actions might have been done mala fide . Many things may have been brought to the notice of the Home Secretary quite improperly. Where the Home Secretary and his supporters, it is assumed, acted bona fide this Amendment does him no harm, but, if anyone happens to have acted other than bona fide , that person ought not to be immune from the ordinary consequences of the law.
I was dealing with the particular point which I understood was the first point put forward by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, and I wish to reassure him and the Committee. If such a case were covered, I agree that something should be done to take it out of the Bill. But the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Harney) will agree with me that such a case is not covered, and therefore I need not trouble about it. The Amendment is not necessary for that purpose. The other point which has been referred to is a different one. It is said that, if you put in the words "in good faith" they do no harm, because there may be acts done mala fide , and if there were such acts we do not want to protect them. Of course, one does not want to protect acts done in bad faith, but there is no suggestion that I know of that there are any such acts. On the contrary, hon. Members have been careful to point out that, so far as their information goes, the orders given by the Home Secretary were carried out with the greatest consideration.
I certainly brought to the notice of this House at least two cases in which no care was taken to get the right persons.
So far as I am concerned, I made no suggestion of anything being done by any of the persons concerned except with the best good faith, but that does not mean that my information may not be imperfect, and therefore there can be no harm in making the Bill an agreed Bill by broadening it so as to cover the possible cases of bad faith.
I am much obliged to the hon. and learned Member. What I was relying on was the speech made by the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies), in which he said:
"It ought to be said that the deportees who have interviewed me have paid a very high tribute to our own police officers in spite of the awkward task which they had to perform. They say that our police officers who dealt with these men on this side were gentlemen."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th May, 1923; col. 945, Vol. 164.]
That was what I had in my mind. I thought that that was the general view. The difficulty, and in my view the impossibility, of putting in the words "in good faith" is that any person who liked would be able to start an action alleging mala fides and to have tried before a judge and jury the question of good faith or bad faith, and then afterwards, if he failed, he would apply to the tribunal which—
He has to go to the tribunal in three months.
He has to make his claim in three months. The person who is concerned primarily is the Home Secretary. It is admitted, I think, by the great majority of the House at any rate, that the Home Secretary acted in good faith, but whether it is admitted or not, that is a matter which I think the House of Commons itself, and not any other tribunal, should judge. The Home Secretary is answerable to the House for his own good faith. If the House were not satisfied that he was acting in good faith, of course it would not dream of passing an Act of Indemnity. It is to this House that the Home Secretary has to answer. This House has to judge his bona fides in the matter. This Amendment would leave open the possibility of a series of actions being brought by everybody who was deported— 110 of them—against everybody who had any concern with the deportation, because there would be a separate action against each, and in each case there would be the effort to get from some tribunal some finding that there had been bad faith in that particular case.
Of course, if the fact were that the 'deportees' right to compensation depended upon his proving bad faith, than I should think that it would be right, even though we did not believe that the case of bad faith existed, to put in a provision of the kind which the hon. and gallant Gentleman is suggesting, in order that, if there be such cases, the particular deportee should not be deprived of his rights. But the Committee will realise that that is not the provision. We hope to provide by this Bill that compensation, which we hope the Committee will think, when we come to it, is full and satisfactory—certainly, our intention is to try and make it so—is to be given to every deportee, whether the particular person who was acting in this deportation acted in good faith or not. There fore, we are not depriving the deportee of any right by leaving out the words which the hon. and gallant Member desires to insert. He has this right, irrespective of any question of good faith or bad faith. We are merely depriving the deportee of a vista of litigation which, however remunerative it may be for one class of the community will not be remunerative for the deportees. In view of the fact that compensation is not only to be given to everybody, but is to be given, I hope, on the same basis as that on which it would be given by a judge and jury, and in view of the further fact that there is no doubt of the good faith of those who were primarily responsible for making these Orders, and that their conduct is to be judged at the Bar of this House and not before any other tribunal, I submit that the Committee ought not to accept this Amendment.
I am sure that the few of us who are privileged to understand the very nice legal arguments which have been put to the House have been very interested in the legal dissertations of the Attorney-General, but I desire for a moment to come more to earth and to deal with the position. We are on common ground in saying that there should be benefits conferred by this particular Bill only upon those who acted in good faith, and on no others. It is also common ground when it is said that in matters of the kind leading up to this Bill there are those who may have acted otherwise than in good faith. The most that can be said—as I understand it is what the Attorney-General says—is that it is not necessary to introduce these words into this Bill. In this connection I think that it will be interesting for the House to know what has been thought of that point by his predecessors in office, and particularly I must refer to the Indemnity Act of 1920, but if I may break off for a moment I wish to say this. We know now that there is a number of doubts when great lawyers get together. As to whether there is a necessity to put these words into the Act or not, to carry out what we agreed are common principles, I am sure that we should desire, for the purpose of security, to have the words in rather than to rely on one legal opinion, however eminent, that they are not necessary. On this point, I may read a short paragraph from King on "Responsible Government in the Dominions":
"It is therefore important that Indemnity Acts should be worded so as to cover all that it is right to cover without affording a cover to acts of private malice done under the pretence of suppressing the rebellion."
I think it will be conceded that when you resort to lawlessness—which is exactly what has been done in this case—there is every opportunity for people to come in and commit malicious acts. There may have been mailcious and other illegal acts committed in the internment camp. We know there have been put before this House a number of petitions in which are disclosed, subject to the test of evidence, a number of acts which could not be justified. Certainly in respect of those acts people should not seek to benefit under this Bill when it becomes an Act. In the Irish case of "Wright versus Fitzgerald" it was shown that such an act was not covered by an ordinary Act of Indemnity. The Colonial Office in 1867 followed this precedent in declining to approve a New Zealand Act which was not limited to an indemnity for acts done in good faith in the suppression of a native rising in that colony. It covered acts done in the suppression of the rebellion without any qualification. In the case of the Indemnity Act passed after the Boer War the Act was most carefully worded so as to cover only acts done in good faith by the officers concerned in suppressing the disturbances in that Colony. The Indemnity Act passed in Natal in 1906 (No. 51) to legalise acts done in that Colony during the rebellion in that year was severely criticised not only in England but in South Africa as a bad departure from precedent. In that Act it was provided that all acts done by military or civil officials should be deemed to have been done in good faith, while the acts of non-officials were legalised only if they were done under the instructions of the officials or in good faith. There is a precedent for asking what we are asking should be done in this case. We have the precedent; the only point urged against the Amendment is that it is not necessary to put in these words. I submit that rather than rely at this, particular juncture—no doubt we shall regain confidence later on—on legal opinion we should insert these words.
I do not intend to support the Amendment. I think the real test is, will the people who have been damaged by these proceedings gain or lose anything by the Amendment? The compensation is not limited in any way in the Clause about to be suggested by the Government. If it limited the compensation to people who had been offended against I can understand the need for this Amendment, but there is no such limit and therefore the only result of inserting an Amendment of this kind would simply be that a multiplicity of actions would be started for the purpose of endeavouring to test whether the Home Secretary or other persons engaged in this matter were guilty of bad faith or not. Even if they were found guilty of bad faith there would be no difference in the result, because these deportees under the Clause suggested by the Government are going to get their compensation even if there is a doubt whether certain people have acted in good faith or not. If any of these people have suffered, as the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) has intimated in that way, they will get full compensation for it and they will be allowed to put their case before the tribunal to be set up, and to get damages for such treatment. Why then should a number of actions be started for the purpose of deciding whether these people acted in good faith? I agree with a striking sentence in the speech delivered yesterday by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) when he said, that whatever the damages "let us give them like gentlemen." I say it is not necessary to insert words which will only result in the bringing of a multiplicity of actions, and therefore I shall oppose the Amendment.
I am not sure whether I am quite clear in my view of the Amendment, and I would like to ask the Attorney-General one or two questions. Is it true that under the new Clause as proposed the plaintiffs would have the same right to a free compensation for damages on all counts as they would have in an ordinary action at law?
That is our intention.
It is very material to know what this Clause is going to be. Strictly speaking, this debate is anticipatory. I do not agree with the hon. Member for Woolwich (Sir Kingsley Wood) that the powers with regard to actual material compensation before a special tribunal are equal. As regards the question of bad faith, what about the case of anyone who may claim that he has suffered a personal assault? I have heard of such complaints. Would the Home Secretary consider that an assault was bond fide committed in good faith in the exercise of the powers put into force under this Regulation? If we do not put in some words such as these, it may be that a person who roughly assaulted one of the deportees would be covered by this Indemnity Bill. I think it is far more important to do the right thing by people injured by the illegal action of the Home Secretary than to pour out a lot of sentimental admiration for the right hon. Gentleman in regard to the difficulty of the Government. We heard a great deal yesterday about the feeling which is entertained towards the Home Secretary.
May I ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman what he means by an "assault in good faith"?
I think we are bound to insert these words. A person may have suffered some damage by such an assault. Does the Attorney-General say there is no precedent for it—no precedent for inserting the words "good faith" in an Indemnity Bill? If there is a precedent—and we have had Acts mentioned which passed this House years ago, including the Act indemnifying those who acted under the special War Regulations for acts done in good faith or done in the execution of their duty—if those words were put in there it must have been for some good reason, and is there not an equally good reason for putting them into this Bill?
I have nothing to withdraw from what I said yesterday with regard to things done in good faith, and I still retain my sympathy with the Home Secretary under the very difficult circumstances in which he was called upon to act. But why cannot the Government accept these words? I was very interested in the speech of the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. F. Gray) in which he made out a very strong case for the Amendment. Every Act of Indemnity, as far as I can see, has included these words. The only Act of Indemnity for which I was responsible as Prime Minister provided that
"no action or other legal proceedings whatsoever whether civil or criminal shall be instituted in any court of law,"—
and these words are repeated in the present Bill, the only words left out being
"if done in good faith."
As has been pointed out, we have repeatedly declined to assent to Acts of Indemnity in the Dominions which do not include words of this kind. What would happen if they were included? The only action that could be brought would be an action on the ground of malice. No action could be> brought on the ground of false imprisonment unless mala fides were suggested. It would have to be suggested that the Home Secretary had personal malice against some particular deportee, and had in bad faith sent him away to Ireland because of some personal grudge or malice which he had for him. It is inconceivable that an action of that kind would be instituted. In the first place, the only ground for it—supposing there are cases which it is suggested is possible—would be that someone acted in bad faith. Let us assume the possibility of some particular deportee against whom someone had a grudge—a personal grudge. The imputation would be that that grudge was part of the mechanism of action in that particular case. I do not think that this House ought to pass a special Act of Parliament to protect an act of that kind, and certainly we ought not to take the money of the taxpayers in order to pay something which that defendant ought to pay out of his own pocket because of the act he had committed. I am not suggesting there were cases of that kind; I, at any rate, have heard of none. But every Act of Indemnity that has been passed, as far as I can see, has included words of the nature I have suggested, and I should have thought that no harm could possibly be done by the insertion of the words, seeing that the Bill gives ample protection to the Home Secretary and to those who acted with him on the advice of the Law Officers, supported, as it was, by a very important tribunal. I should have thought that the protection given by the House was quite adequate in this case, and that the Government would be well advised—seeing that such an overwhelming majority of the House supports it in indemnifying the Home Secretary and his officials, who acted in good faith—in introducing words which would, at any rate, exclude from the protection of the Act of Parliament those who have acted maliciously or in bad faith in their treatment of the deportees.
7.0 P.M.
The Government have certainly no desire to protect anyone who acted in bad faith. It is a question which is the more practical and better course to adopt. If you are passing an Act of Indemnity after a rebellion covering a, number of different acts it is quite clear it is desirable to exclude from the scope of such a general Act acts which are not done in good faith. I would not dispute that for one moment, as otherwise you might protect anybody who committed a crime in the course of a rebellion not really for the purpose of suppressing the rebellion. The scheme of this Bill, as indicated yesterday by the Prime Minister at the beginning of the Debate, is rather different. The scheme of the Bill is that everyone who has suffered by the acts of the Government or anyone under their orders is to be compensated, and no one proposes that any question of good faith or bad faith is to take away from them their right to compensation. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that if the act were done by one of the officials of the Government in bad faith he ought to pay, but that would not be at all fair to the person who suffered, who must be able to look, I think, under the scheme of this Bill, not only to the individual resources of the person who may have committed that offence, but to the resources of the country, in order to get full compensation; because that is our object, that everyone who has suffered should get full compensation. We do not propose to take anyone's compensation away on any ground at all. That is what I understood the House desired yesterday, and it is what the Government thinks is fair in the circumstances of the case. Granted that, it really is not a question of compensation that arises at all; it is a question of criminal proceedings—and it is only criminal proceedings that really come into this matter, they having special rights under the Statute—and whether it is better to have a general freedom or not.
Consider who are the persons involved in these cases. They are a limited number. The Home Secretary and the people who took part in his decision, and those who carried that decision out. No one else is covered by this Act at all. I think the House as a whole—the right hon. Member for Carnarvon (Mr. Lloyd George) very generously gave his own opinion on the subject—are of opinion that the Home Secretary acted in good faith, and no question arises about him. All those who acted in obedience to his instructions must surely be held to have acted in good faith, and so far as they are concerned I think they are entitled to protection. It is true you may imagine a particular case in which some policeman acting in bad faith may have arrested somebody, but I cannot conceive how he did it in such a way—
He may have supplied information in bad faith.
It has been pointed out already that that would not be covered by this Bill at all. That would be a slander.
May I interrupt?
I will give the hon. Member an opportunity to raise his point in a moment; but that question, I think, is slander, and is not covered by this Bill at all, which is now generally admitted. I agree that case ought to be protected if it came under this Bill, and we agree that ought to be done. I do not see my- self what case the insertion of these words would really cover in any reasonable probability, and if it does not is not it rather a pity to open the door to a number of prosecutions that might be instituted alleging want of good faith, stirring the whole thing up again, involving a great expenditure of money and that very harassing condition to which the right hon. Gentleman referred yesterday as hanging over all the officials, keeping the door open indefinitely, provided always that the complainant is prepared to make an allegation of bad faith? I think, on the balance of what is good legislation, it is better not to insert these words, and I trust hon. Members will not press the Government to do so.
The difficulty I am in about this Amendment is that I feel that the whole Bill so far as it has gone at present is going to let off a lot of people who I think ought not to be let off, not because of bad faith but because of sheer carelessness and downright indifference to remedying it. I do not know where bad faith begins or where it ends. My case always has been against the Home Secretary and his advisers, but when their attention was called to what at least was gross carelessness on the part of the officials in this matter they took no step to remedy it. Over and over again in this House we raised questions of people who were arrested and deported without having their full names put on the warrants, sent out of the country, and instead of the Home Secretary meeting us and his advisers giving the information as to why that sort of thing happened we were treated with absolute contempt. I do not think the people who advised the Home Secretary—who probably did act in actual good faith according to the letter of the word—were acting in good faith because good faith means, when you are dealing with the liberty of the subject, that you should be extremely careful and not extremely careless, and that is what has happened in the bulk of these cases.
It is said that the deportees can get at the person who, say, took away from somebody this £60 to which one of my hon. Friends called attention yesterday. I cannot help feeling that the refusal to put in these words is due to the fact that those who advised the Government know perfectly well that if they were put in there are a number of people concerned who ought really to be punished. When it is said that we only need criminal action, I think some of the men in connection with the Criminal Investigation Department ought to have criminal action taken against them. There has grown up in this country during the war and since the war a sort of organisation with spies that act as agents provoking men to do wrong. We have known that in the trade union movement, I am sure it operates in this Irish movement, and I am sure that in a large number of these cases men and women have been taken out of their homes simply because some member of the family belonged to the Self-Determination League. I called attention yesterday to the fact that I myself sat in a magistrate's court, heard a detective-inspector giving evidence against poor people, and that the only charge he could bring against them was that they were members of the Communist Party. That is what has happened here. No one, as yet, has stood at that Box and told us why one of the women taken away from Islington was taken away, not because there is any charge against her, but because she was the one who volunteered to go when the detective did not know which one he wanted. No one has denied that, and it cannot be denied.
I say these sorts of people ought not to be safeguarded by this Act, and therefore if I am the only person to divide against this I shall vote for the words proposed going into the Clause. The manner in which hon. and right hon. Gentlemen stand up and smite their hearts and say how virtuous they are, the Government and all these police officers are, makes me sick when I know the sort of treatment the poor people who belong to societies that official people do not like receive, the manner in which they are harried and driven from pillar to post in this country. It so happens that the police and advisers of the Home Secretary have overreached themselves this time, and I am surprised that the Noble Lord should stand at that Box and argue in the legal manner he has done against the insertion of words which I cannot help feeling in his heart of hearts he thinks ought to be in the Bill. As a rule he is quite fair on a matter of this kind, but I am certain he is being driven by the gentlemen who are responsible for getting the Government into the mess in which they are over this, and that he has been forced to adopt this attitude when any fair-minded man must know that the words ought to go in. I repeat that you have had cases—I have brought them and other hon. Members have brought them to the notice of the House—where people have been deported on warrants which did not contain their names, and where people were taken haphazard.
A further plea is that in the case of many of the people who are being put on trial to-day the evidence against them is being collected now. Anyone knows that as a rule where secret societies exist and there are secret conspiracies you can always get whatever evidence you will buy. I feel that you have no right to rob these people forther of their rights. You are robbing them of the rights given under the Statute, you are taking that all away from them, and you are now going to take another right away from them, the means of being able to prove whether they have been dealt with in a bona fide . manner or not. Further, the Attorney-General and the Noble Lord have stood at the box and said that every one of these deportees is going to get the compensation to which he is entitled. We shall disagree as to what they are entitled to, but I want to ask which is right. Earlier in the evening the Attorney-General said that those people against whom it could be proved that they had been conspiring against the Free State Government or this Government would not, of course, get compensation. I only want to clear it up. If it is true that they are going before this Committee and all they have to do is to prove the amount of damage and then the damage will be paid, that alters the situation. But I called attention, and no one contradicted me, to the statement of the Attorney-General that those people against whom a charge of conspiracy could be proved should not have the compensation. That is what I understood, I repeated it at some length, and the Attorney-General did not then attempt to correct me. If he will correct me now and say that there is no question but that the whole of the people illegally deported, irrespective of whether they belonged to a Sinn Fein organisation or not, will get this compensation, that will alter the matter very considerably. But as to this question of good faith, every decent man in this House ought to vote for the words going in, because it is well known, and it does not need any argument, that secret police and secret conspiracies always do produce people who make crime. Further, no one has yet contradicted the fact which two or three of us on this side of the House have put before it, that the wrong people were taken by the sheer carelessness of Scotland Yard and the people who advised the Home Secretary.
I am totally at a loss to understand why the Government refuse to accept this Amendment. I have rarely heard in all my Parliamentary experience a less convincing speech than that delivered by the Lord Privy Seal. Why should these words not be inserted? What harm will they do if they are inserted? Can the Noble Lord suggest any answer to that? Why are they omitted here when they have become common form? I will not go so far as to say that there is no Act of Indemnity that does not contain them, because a universal negative is always a dangerous proposition, but I do assert with the utmost confidence that the uniform stream of precedents, certainly in modern times, has never been to pass an Act of Indemnity without including these words. In the Act of 1920, already quoted by my right hon. Friend, there are in the side note words which are very significant. They are:
"Restrictions on the taking of legal proceedings against persons acting in good faith."
That is merely a convenient summary of the object of the Section to which the words apply. Why should we now, for the first time, omit from an Act of Indemnity words which have regularly been included? There is no reason that can be suggested. It is not merely a question of compensation, though compensation is important. Nor am I suggesting that any of the persons concerned acted otherwise than in good faith. But there may have been such instances. The Noble Lord is entirely wrong in saying that this indemnity covered only persons acting under the orders of the Secretary of State. It goes a great deal further than that. The Noble Lord cannot have studied the words of the Clause. Let me read the actual words:
"No action or other legal proceeding whatsoever ‥‥ shall be instituted against any person ‥‥ in respect of the issue before the passing of this Act of any Order purporting to have been made in pursuance of any Regulations made under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act, 1920 ‥‥ or in respect of any act done for the purpose of carrying any such Order into effect ‥‥"
What follows?
"‥‥ or done in purported exercise of any powers under the said Regulations‥‥"
Note the words
"any powers under the said Regulations."
That is not only under the Orders of the Secretary of State.
There were no others.
Then why are these words in the Clause?
Of course, the words are perfectly right. They do not refer to any acts done by persons otherwise than under the Orders of the Secretary of State—not specifically, not at all.
It is a necessary implication. Otherwise, the words are perfectly otiose and ought not to be in the Clause at all. If the words have any meaning at all, they might be applied to cover an act not done under the Orders of the Secretary of State. I go back to my first point. We are setting a precedent. Why should we, for the first time in the whole stream of modern indemnity legislation, omit this phrase? We are retrospectively taking away the right of action and even the right of criminal prosecution of persons aggrieved. That retrospective privilege ought not to be granted except to persons who are capable of showing that they did act in good faith. I cannot understand why the Government do not accept the Amendment, to which they have not stated any valid objection, for it is an Amendment which is in strict accordance with the whole, stream of our Parliamentary precedents.
Notwithstanding the vigour of the language addressed by the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) to the Committee, I hope that the Government will not accept the Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman told us that there is a stream of authority in legislation dealing with indemnity, and implied that there are precedents which we ought to follow. The only Act referred to is the Act which deals with indemnity for action taken with regard to property during the late War. That is a totally different matter. I remember that when, as a very junior barrister, I was arguing before Lord Russell of Killowen, I said to him, "There is, my Lord, a stream of authority upon this point," and he replied, "Mr. Hohler, that is the very worst argument I ever heard." Do not let us forget that this is an indemnity both in regard to criminal proceedings and civil actions. What are the words that are proposed to be inserted? They suggest that the action or proceeding is not to be instituted in regard to any person who has acted in good faith. I ask myself this question: If you insert these words, on whom is the onus of proof that a person acted in good faith? Clearly it would be on the defendant, whether in criminal proceedings or in a civil action. In other words, you would give no indemnity under this Bill at all. That is not the intention of this House. Those who join in this appeal to the Government to accept the Amendment have not considered what the words mean. There would be no protection if the words were inserted. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Now, I see; they have considered the meaning of the words; they want the proceedings to commence, and they want to drive a coach and horses through this Act. Let the Government stand firm. Do not let us be appalled when the hon. Membr for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) says that no decent Member of this House could get up and say a word against the Amendment. I am quite content to be ranked amongst the indecent Members, for I am dead against the Amendment. I am not the least appalled when the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) gets up, and denounces the Government, and says that there never was such a Government in this world.
I never said anything of the kind. I think I have known worse Governments.
It is not so much what the right hon. Gentleman says as the tone in which he says it. I think that what I have suggested is what was at the back of his mind. I beg the Government not to pass this Bill, possibly after an all- night sitting, only to be told, "Here are coaches and horses driven all through it." We have been told that we have not much brains on this side of the House. Surely, we have enough brains to see through this Amendment?
I am very puzzled by the reluctance of the Government to insert the words of the Amendment in the Clause. I understand that the whole abject of the Bill is to afford an indemnity to the Home Secretary and his supporters, because they are supposed to have carried out the acts which they did for the benefit of the community. Is there any objection to the framing of a Bill which will state in precise words that the object is to protect those who have honestly tried to serve the public? At present the Bill does not state that. The Bill states that those are to be indemnified, both who acted in good faith and who acted in bad faith. I do not know any person who acted in bad faith. But when you are drawing an Act of Parliament, your first duty is to make it watertight. When the Bill comes to be interpreted months afterwards by another tribunal, it will be futile to say to the Judges, "Oh, but it was considered at the time the Bill wont through the House of Commons, there being no suggestion to the contrary, that everybody had acted in good faith." The Judges will reply, "We do not mind what was considered. The Act, as it stands, happens to be a protection to a gentleman who did act in bad faith, and whatever evidence you give me of his action in that respect I will rule it out. He is entitled to the full protection of the Act."
What can be the objection to inserting these words if the Government are satisfied that the Home Secretary and his supporters acted honestly and for the public good? There can be no objection. What is the answer that has been given to the House? The answer is that if you put in the words, "in good faith," it may come about that persons will make claims asserting that the defendants acted in bad faith, and that the defendants will be obliged to defend themselves, and to show that they acted in good faith. That is no answer at all. At this moment there are 7,000,000 people in London who could to-morrow issue writs against other 7,000,000 claiming that they acted in bad faith in some respect or other. The Courts are open to every impostor. We are asked to say that this Government needs to stand in a way that no other member of the community stands, and is not to be subject to the annoyance of persons wrongfully coming forward. Why the Government should be put in a privileged position is rather a puzzle to one who expects to see a Government standing as an example, in its conduct, of what is expected from all other persons.
The Attorney-General mentioned a matter in reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Nottingham (Captain Berkeley). He said he could only fancy one possible instances of bad faith and that would come under the heading of defamation. He could not conceive any other, though there might be others. Let us take the one instance he can conceive, namely, slander. When he said, "I assume that the learned Members of the House will agree with me that this Bill would be no indemnity for a person who by false and malicious words set the law in motion against another person," I assented. I was wrong. When I look at the Bill closely, I am quite satisfied that, if it becomes law as it now stands, and if a deportee were to go into Court and prove up to the hilt that he was perfectly innocent, and that he was arrested because the person whom he cites as defendant falsely and maliciously told a lie about him—if that person were to go into Court and make that case, the defendant could shake this Measure in his face, and say, "You have not any claim against me."
I am quite satisfied that this is so, and I will explain to the Committee why. This Clause, as drawn, purports to protect from liability anyone who does any act or purports to do any act for the purpose of carrying into effect or purporting to carry into effect these Regulations. Supposing therefore I, under the colour of these Regulations, were to say to a policeman, "John Jones or Peter Robinson" —who happen to be my private enemies— "is implicated in a conspiracy in Ireland." That is a lie; I know it to be a lie, but the policeman acts upon my statement. He arrests that person, and that person is deported to Ireland. If this Bill, as it stands, becomes law, and if that person were to sue me in a court of justice, I would have an absolute and complete answer to his action, because I by my words would have done an act "in purported exercise" of the powers dealt with under this Bill, and however malicious or however wicked my action was, I would be protected.
I am not ordinarily of a suspicious nature, but in this matter I am puzzled, and it certainly makes one suspicious. Here is a proposal to insert certain words which are justified not only by common sense and by a stream of authorities, but which are grammatically necessary in order that the Bill may express the intention for which it is brought forward. "We are bringing forward a Bill, "says the Attorney-General," in order to throw a mantle of protection over the Home Secretary and his subordinates. Why? Because in all they did they acted honestly and for the public good." All we say is, "Make your Bill express that in words and nothing more." We say that the Bill, as it now stands, expresses something more, and that your protecting mantle will cover, not merely those who acted honestly, but those who may have acted dishonestly. The Government recognise that we are right in the distinction: still they refuse to withdraw the protecting cover from over those who may have acted in bad faith. As I say, it makes one suspicious, though, for my own part, I do not believe the Government have any sinister purpose. I believe the words have been omitted, and I think the Government have committed so many faults and made so many mistakes over this unfortunate affair, that they are now loth to admit that they have made another.
I wish to put to the Lord Privy Seal a question which is prompted by his interruption when my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) was speaking. I think the point will be admitted by the Committee to be very important. I understood the interruption of the Noble Lord to be, that in his view and in the view of the Government, the indemnity which this Bill seeks to provide is limited to things which have been done under, or in connection with, Orders recently made by the Home Secretary which led to the internment and transport to Ireland of these 110 people. I wish to ask the Committee to consider whether this is what the Bill does. In order to do so, it is necessary to follow the terms of the Bill. I have here the Restoration of Order in Ireland Regulations. There is not merely one Regulation, but a great number of them— the actual number, I think, being 84. They include provisions whereby police constables may enter houses without warrants and may seize any documents they please, and whereby Customs officers may arrest any person who is acting in a suspicious manner, and all sorts of provisions which go beyond the ordinary law. I turn to the Bill, by which the Noble Lord tells me the Government do not intend to do anything more than cover and indemnify acts done in respect of particular Orders made by the Home Secretary, in a particular connection, under Regulation 14B, and I ask him: Has the Bill as drafted that effect? There is nothing in the Bill about Regulation 14B. There is nothing to limit it to Regulation 14B out of these 80 or 90 Regulations. There is nothing in the Bill to refer to Orders made by the Home Secretary, and I see the phrase:
"In purported exercise of any powers under the said Regulations."
"The said Regulations" are the Regulations under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act and, as I say, there are 84 of them. I do not wish to claim to lay down the law in the matter, but I ask the Committee to consider whether we have not before us a Bill which is drafted in very much wider terms than the Lord Privy Seal understood when he interrupted my right hon. Friend, not too politely, and said the right hon. Gentleman did not know what he was talking about. I notice that the Attorney-General and the Lord Privy Seal are consulting—as they are entitled to do— and no doubt the Lord Privy Seal is explaining what his understanding of the matter is, but I should like one or other of the Ministers concerned, to follow the point which I am putting as shortly and clearly as I can. It appears to me this is not a Bill which is limited to indemnity in respect of acts done in execution of or under Orders made by the Home Secretary under Regulation 14B. but, on the contrary, as it is drawn, it is a Bill to indemnify anybody who is made a defendant for, or on account of, or in respect of, any act done, not only in exercise, but in purported exercise, of any one of the 84 Regulations. If one looks at the suggested side-note to the Clause one will see that the draftsman has thought a convenient way to summarise the effect of the Clause is as follows:
"Indemnity for action taken under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Regulations."
If that be a correct description, it covers all 84 Regulations, and the title of the Bill is:
"A Bill to prohibit the institution and prosecution of legal proceedings in respect of action taken under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Regulations."
That refers to all 84 Regulations, and I think the right hon. Member for Paisley was quite right and that the correction, or rather the castigation, which the Lord Privy Seal thought fit to administer was quite wrong. The Lord Privy Seal seemed to think that he knew more about what was in the Bill than my right hon. Friend. Now, as we have had it made entirely clear from the Noble Lord in charge of the Bill on behalf of the Government, that the fixed intention of the Government is to limit the indemnity, whatever else they do, to action which has been taken under or in respect of certain Orders already made under Regulation 14B, by the Home Secretary. I would invite the Noble Lord or the Attorney-General so to recast this Bill as to produce that result.
I think the Committee will agree that I have waited until practically everybody who desired to express a view upon this Bill had done so, before making the few observations which I desire to offer. My observations are purely legal, and I do not want it to be thought for a moment that I am suggesting that my legal opinion is in any way different from or better than that which we have heard from any of the other speakers in the Debate. But it seems to me one point has been wholly missed, and it is a point which fills me with the direst apprehension. I understand the intention of this Bill is to indemnify the Home Secretary and others for acts which have already been done, but that is not my reading of the Bill as it is drafted. I am very much afraid that the Attorney-General has drafted a Bill and the Lord Privy Seal is supporting a Bill, which gives a complete indemnity to the Government for anything which they may do in future under these Regulations, and if that be so, I am confident that the Committee would not wish to pass a Bill of that sort into an Act without recognising what they are doing. I ask the Lord Privy Seal whether it is the intention of the Government to pass an Act which is to be a wholesale indemnity for the future?
indicated dissent.
I understand that is not his intention, but I am afraid he has done it.
indicated dissent.
I see the Noble Lord does not agree with me. It is only my opinion.
That I do not agree with the hon. and learned Member, was not the meaning of my interruption. My meaning was that I think this point really arises on a later Amendment. I quite admit there is something to be said about it, but I do not wish to cumber this discussion with a discussion on other matters.
So long as that is quite clear I do not propose to say any more. The only reason why I intervened in regard to this Amendment was that whereas the words relating to acts done bona fide might not be of such great importance with regard to the specific matter in question, yet if there is any danger of this applying to future acts, something of that sort ought to be put in.
The entirely novel point, as the hon. and learned Member for Wallsend (Mr. Hastings) has just called it, is really an old one, and was made when the Bill was first introduced, but the real point is that this Bill has been represented by the Government as if it were confined to the one small point. It is nothing of the kind. It covers a complete indemnity for everything done under Regulations under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act since the Act was passed, and furthermore, under the words to which the hon. and learned Gentleman has last referred, it will give an indemnity for any future acts done under these Regulations, as the Bill is at present drawn. Under these circumstances, I think we are entitled to insist, in the first place, that the usual form in relation to Indemnity Acts should appear in this Bill. It does appear in the Act of 1920. The hon. and learned Member opposite, the Member for Gillingham (Mr. Hohler), who has been the only defender of the Government, says that if these words appear, there is no indemnity at all, but under that argument there would be no indemnity under the Act of 1920, and yet no cases have been brought under that Act. I suggest that in these circumstances we should provide this protection. An hon. Member referred to the Colonial precedents, and reference has been made to a judgment of the Privy Council in the Natal case in 1908, where they refer to the fact that the Imperial Government on that occasion could not intervene, though the Imperial Government took objection to it. I say that when you have this long record, both of legislative and judicial authority, it requires the insertion of these words "in good faith," and when you find that this Bill is not limited to the simple point of the Orders recently issued, but is a complete indemnity for all that has been done in the past and that may be done in the future under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act, then I say that a complete case has been made for the insertion of these words.
In reference to what the Noble Lord said as to acts done in connection with the suppression of rebellion, was it not the whole justification of the Government for introducing this Bill that the acts were done in connection with the suppression of a rebellion?
All I said was that where there was a great number of different kinds of acts, it was perhaps reasonable to put in such limiting words, but where you are dealing, as I understood this Bill to be dealing, with this particular case of an excess of authority —and it has been discussed throughout as merely dealing with an excess of authority—which the Home Secretary assumed in connection with these particular deportees, it is a different thing. It is suggested that in point of fact this Bill goes a great deal further than that. I agree that verbally it does. I am sorry the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) is not here, because I should wish to explain to him that nothing was further from my thoughts than to be dis- courteous to him. There is no Member of the House to whom I would less readily be guilty of discourtesy than to the right hon. Gentleman, who has been Prime Minister, and who is a distinguished Member of this House, and if I said too abruptly that I thought he had misapprehended the point, I very gladly withdraw the expression. Putting that aside, may I say that the substantial case that has been made from the other side is, Are we disregarding precedents? I think we are not. I think this Bill, in fact, only does refer in substance to this question of the recent action of the Home Secretary. The situation really only arises since the coming into operation of the Home Rule Act, and that is really the point.
I think these words are following in substance the precedent of the Act of 1920, and I will tell the Committee why. Under that Act of 1920 it was made a complete defence that the action was taken under the Orders of a Government Department, and the moment that was established good faith was statutorily assumed. Therefore, that is the whole point. Here we have to deal with a number of acts which were carried out under the Orders of a Government Department, and it would therefore be an otiose piece of legislation if you first inserted the limiting words "in good faith," and then went on to say, as, if you carried out the Act of 1920, you would have to go on to say, that the good faith would be completely proved when you proved the Order of the Department. It was the only case really in contemplation that should be dealt with under this Bill, and therefore, although you may make a number of technical points, in substance the decision of the Government is right, and I submit that the Act will work better, more justly, and more in the interests of everybody concerned if it remains as it is. I hope, therefore, after the very full discussion we have had on this point, we may now go to a Division.
May I appeal to the Noble Lord? He knows I do not want to keep up the discussion in order to delay or waste time at all, but surely. if it be the case, as on reflection I gather the Noble Lord thinks is the case, that in point of words, verbally, this Clause is a Clause which is so drawn as to cover any act done under any one of these Regulations, he cannot expect the Committee to decide this point without having information as to what the Government propose to do. The Noble Lord, in addition to his other great qualifications, is a lawyer and a very distinguished lawyer He knows perfectly well, and nobody knows better, that if you were to appear before a Court of Justice and to say: "Oh, verbally, I know this Statute covers anything done under any one of these 84 Regulations, but the substance of the thing that was being discussed was the behaviour of the Home Secretary," that would not suffice. Is it his position that, though we are here in order to offer an indemnity in respect of certain things done under an Order of the Home Secretary, we are solemnly to pass an Act of Parliament which offers an indemnity in respect of endless possible or hypothetical things done under 84 different Regulations? I cannot believe seriously that the Noble Lord or the Attorney-General would ever justify any such a proposal. The thing cannot be disposed of by casuistry. It is the plainest and most substantial point that could possibly arise.
The House of Commons is being asked to pass a piece of retrospective legislation. All Indemnity Acts are retrospective. It is being asked to pass a sort of thing which, in the Constitution of the United States of America, could not be passed at all. It is, therefore, a very exceptional kind of Act. The House is being asked to pass a piece of legislation which is going to make the situation the same as though the Government had acted lawfully when they had acted unlawfully. It may be quite right to do so. I have never taken an extreme view as to the claim to pass an Indemnity Act, but if it be the case that the Government regard it as a matter of indifference whether they are passing an Indemnity Act to cover 84 Regulations or one Regulation, I should like to have that plainly stated, because it appears to me to be the most light-hearted way in which to deal with a very grave difficulty which one can very well imagine. May I, at any rate, appeal to the Attorney-General or the Noble Lord to tell us that, while they want to have this question as to bona fides disposed of now, which I can quite understand they should—and I do not want to delay them in that—they reserve as a wholly separate question, and regard as an important question, the dis- charge of the duty which lies upon the Government to see that the Act as passed does not go beyond the understanding of the Noble Lord as to what the Bill says? I submit that to suggest that verbally the Bill says one thing, but that in point of substance it means something more limited, is a suggestion which nobody can seriously press forward, either in this Committee or before any court of law.
I understand the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) to take the point that the words "done in purported exercise of any powers under the said Regulations" cover any acts done purporting to carry out any of the 84 Regulations, and that they have, therefore, no connection with the Order issued by the Home Secretary. May I point out that the particular Amendment which we are discussing now is whether or not we should insert the words "in good faith," and that they relate only to the Order of the Home Secretary, and therefore his point will remain untouched, whether this Amendment be accepted or rejected. Therefore, this discussion, I submit, is premature at the present time. I understand that there are Amendments further down upon the Paper upon which it will be in order, but the only question we are now discussing is in regard to anything done in pursuance of the Order of the Home Secretary. It does appear to me, and I suggest, that it would be much more reasonable to leave the words of this Clause about the issue of that Order as they stand, for this reason, that if you insert the words "in good faith," instead of everybody who has been injured by the act of the Home Secretary coming before the special tribunal and getting such remuneration as they are entitled to for the wrong which they have endured —without, presumably, the defendant having the ordinary defence which is open to him in an action, namely, that he had reasonable ground for his acts, which is a great advantage—instead of their all being swept in and treated, as has been said, properly and in a gentlemanly way, and given the proper remuneration, you are going to open a field to endless litigation.
By the insertion of these words "in good faith," you are going to give every applicant the option of either going before the special tribunal or bringing an action. If he chooses to bring an action, he has only to allege in his action that the Order under which the defendant purported to act was not made in good faith, and if he succeeds in proving that, the defendant loses his protection, and the applicant can go on with the ordinary action. That, I submit, is not a desirable state of affairs, and, further, it is not what this House intends. Probably what would happen would be this: A man brings his ordinary action and says that he has been subjected to false imprisonment under an Order which was not made in good faith. Is that to be treated as a defence? The preliminary question to be determined will be whether or not he is barred from doing that, and in order to determine that, someone as a preliminary point will probably have to determine whether or not the Order of the Home Secretary was made in good faith. Very likely it would be ordered that that should be tried as a preliminary point, and it would be argued at great length and at great cost. If it be held that it was not in good faith, the applicant goes on with his action, and if he fails in that, he is allowed to go before the special tribunal and get remuneration from them. So you have endless litigation and endless costs, and that, I submit, is the very thing which this House always wisely desires to stop. I venture to hope that the Government perhaps may see their way to accept some of the other Amendments put down, but on the one we are now discussing I venture to think that the words should remain, and I certainly support the Government.
8.0 P.M.
The Committee has reached on this Bill a position which I think is almost without parallel in our Parliamentary history. Certainly I can remember no occasion during the 14 years I have been in Parliament in which a Committee of the House of Commons has been confronted with anything like the position with which this Committee is confronted now. Yesterday, as a matter of urgency, on the first day of the new Session, a one-clause Bill was introduced for the purpose, we were told, of indemnifying the Home Secretary and others who acted under his orders under Regulation 14B made under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act, on the express ground that the Home Secretary had acted bona fide and in good faith. To-day, much to the surprise—I may say to the astonishment—of this Committee, we have heard from the front Opposition Bench, from my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), a speech in which he has pointed out quite clearly, and I venture to think quite irrefutably, that up to the present the House and the Committee have been considering this Bill under the most complete misapprehension. As a matter of fact it is not a Bill to indemnify the Home Secretary and those who acted in good faith under Regulation 14B in regard to the deportations, but to indemnify all and sundry who, during the last two or three years, may have misused any of the multifarious powers relating to customs or police under 80 or 90 Regulations and to indemnify all and sundry facts not merely done bona fide , but even if they have been done in bad faith. Mark this. This Noble Lord who is in charge of this Bill does not suggest that that is not a true view of the Bill which is before the Committee. On the contrary, he admits it. He says verbally that that is what it means. Of course, he may be inspired, but so far as the Law Courts are concerned it is only the words of the Measure which they have to interpret. In these circumstances, I do submit that the Government really ought now to consent to an adjournment of this Committee stage until they have considered their position, until they have decided either to withdraw the Bill, which is so wholly different from the Bill which was described in the speech in which it was introduced yesterday, or until they are in a position—which apparently they do not appear to be in in spite of their long consultation in the face of the Committee between the Noble Lord and his legal adviser—until they feel themselves in a position to give this Committee a pledge, which in courtesy and out of respect to the Committee ought to be given, that the Government will do whatever is necessary to limit this Bill to the purposes which were declared to be the purposes of the Government when the Bill was introduced.
This particular Amendment deals only with the question of acting in good faith. The question which the right hon. Gentleman raises is quite outside this Amendment.
On a point of Order. The words "in good faith" necessarily cover all that comes after them. If my right hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) is right, if we wholeheartedly now pass the words "in good faith," that will cover the whole of the Regulation. I submit with great deference that, if my right hon. and learned Friend is right, these words govern the entire Clause and every act done under the whole of these 84 Regulations.
We do not desire, and I hope the Committee may accept it, to take advantage in any way of this action of the Home Secretary in order to extend the indemnity beyond that which we asked for on the Second Reading of the Bill.
How can we deal with the question of bona fides on this point unless we know how far it goes? I am in this dilemma, that I agree that so long as the Bill is limited the words " bona fide " are not necessary, but if it is not limited, how are we to decide on this Amendment?
On a point of Order. May I submit that while there is force in what the Noble Lord has said. The Committee at the same time must be in a difficulty. I submit with great respect that it would be one thing to put in the words "in good faith" if this Bill were a Bill limited to specific occasions, to a narrow range based upon a particular action of the Home Secretary, and quite another thing to put in the words "in good faith," if, as a matter of fact, they were to be followed—as they are now in the Bill—by words which would cover things done in Ireland as well as in England, things done by soldiers or auxiliaries as well as administrative officers in England. So that we are bound to take the view that this question is in order and debatable at this stage. If you do not take that view, I would respectfully ask you to receive a Motion to report Progress. While it is quite right that the Noble Lord and the Attorney-General should decide what course they should take, they have made it plain to the Committee that they have realised they will have to alter the language of their Bill. Until we know what that alteration is intended to be, I do not see how we can discuss it.
May I submit that it is exceedingly difficult to discuss, on the question of the insertion of these words " bona fide ," the question of any Amendment that may be necessary in a subsequent part of the Bill to limit it? I do not want to discuss that at this moment, and I do not think it is in order to do so. I hope the Committee will come to a. decision now on this question.
I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
That will give the Government an opportunity of deciding how they propose to alter this Clause. When we have got that information, we shall be able to make very rapid progress. How can we make progress at all when we do not know that?
That is a Motion which I cannot accept.
May I say on behalf of the Members of the Committee who have not been privileged to hear the Debate which took place in the last two hours that, so far as the laymen are concerned, they must be absolutely confused? It is now admitted, for the first time, that the indemnity would even cover the action of the Black and Tans in Ireland.
Has the right hon. Gentleman risen to a point of Order?
I am raising a point of Order, because I understand you to say you could not accept the Motion to report Progress. Did I hear you correctly say that you could not accept the Motion?
I could not accept a Motion to report Progress.
Is it not a fact that you can only refuse to accept a Motion to report Progress if it be in your judgment an abuse of the Rules of the House? I submit to you that to so describe a Motion to report Progress now, in the exceptional circumstances of difficulty in which we find ourselves, does not fall under the Rules.
The point of Order, as I understand it, which is now under discussion is whether the Motion to insert these particular words should be confined to this Amendment.
I understand that it is very difficult in Bills of this kind to decide whether these particular words should be inserted when they have an effect on subsequent parts of the Bill. But I understand from the Government spokesman that this Bill is confined to only one particular incident. To that extent it appears to me that it would be out of order to discuss all the subsequent Amendments put down on the Paper when dealing with this one Amendment. Therefore, we shall confine ourselves to the particular Amendment as to whether the persons proceeded against acted in good faith or not.
I want to submit to you that, while that was the intention of the Government, and they only meant to indemnify for one act, it has now been admitted that the Bill is so drafted that it goes much wider than was intended. Furthermore, that is not only admitted, but the Noble Lord has intimated that it may be possible to deal with that on a further Amendment. Therefore, on a point of Order, what I submit to you, Captain Fitzroy, is: how can we proceed with a Bill in Committee and to Report and Third Reading, about which we are now in the position of being unable to know its full extent?
Do I understand your ruling, Captain Fitzroy, to mean that the question whether we are discussing this or not, does not depend what is in the Bill, but what the Government say is in the Bill? If so, has any such ruling ever been given? May I ask your ruling upon that point? Am I not entitled to do so?
I gave my ruling a few moments ago.
I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
I will endeavour to confine myself, so far as possible, within your various rulings on the numerous points of Order raised, following the course of my remarks. But it is, I submit, not respectful to this Committee, and not a businesslike proposal
on the part of the Government to ask this Committee here and now to decide whether people who have acted maliciously and in bad faith are to have every indemnity against their wrongful actions, unless the Government are prepared to say here and now not merely that they will have an Amendment introduced at some future stage but will tell the Committee to what this Bill really refers. Does it refer to the Home Secretary, or the doings of the Black and Tans? Is it limited to the deportations, or does it cover anything that has been done under 80 or 90 Regulations in the last few years? It is not, I submit, respectful to this Committee for the Government to ask us to decide, now, in blinkers, without being allowed to know what is the ultimate intention of the Government with regard to this Bill; whether we are giving a blank pardon in advance to all and sundry who have misused 80 or 90 Regulations, or whether the Government do intend to acknowledge that they have made another blunder, and have introduced a Bill which is nothing like the Bill described on Second Reading. Are they now prepared to give a pledge that this Bill, before it leaves this Committee, shall be limited and restricted to the purpose for which leave was given to introduce it, and to the purpose for which we understood we were met here to-day? That is what I put to the Noble Lord in charge of the Bill. Mark the analogy! I might be asking questions on another Bill and asking whether it related to Scotland or Ireland, or to any other part of the United Kingdom, and the reply might be: "Never mind; we will tell you later. Meanwhile, pass it."
Unless the Noble Lord is prepared now to give complete satisfaction to a perfectly reasonable request which has been made by the Committee for information, I beg leave to move "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 164: Noes, 241.
Division No. 160.] AYES. [8.22 p.m. Adams, D. Attlee, C. R. Bonwick, A. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Barker G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Bowdler, W. A. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Barnes A. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charlas W. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Batey, Joseph Broad, F. A. Ammon, Charles George Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Bromfield, William Brotnerton, J. Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Pringle, W. M. R. Buchanan, G. Hemmerde, E. G. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Buckle, J. Herriotts, J. Riley, Ben Burgess, S. Hill, A. Ritson, J. Burnie. Major J. (Bootle) Hillary, A. E. Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.) Hirst, G. H. Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Royce, William Stapleton Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Hogge, James Myles Saklatvala, S. Chapple, W. A. Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) Salter, Dr. A. Charleton, H. C. Irving, Dan Sexton, James Clarke, Sir E. C. Jarrett, G. W. S. Shakespeare, G. H. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Shinwell, Emanuel Collins, Pat (Walsall) John, William (Rhondda, West) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Collison, Levi Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Simpson, J. Hope Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Sinclair, Sir A. Darbishire, C. W. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sitch, Charles H. Davies, David (Montgomery) Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Smith, T. (Pontefract) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Snell, Harry Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh) Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Snowden, Philip Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Spoor, B. G. Dudgeon, Major C. R. Kenyon, Barnet Stephen, Campbell Duncan, C. Lansbury, George Stewart, J. (St Rollox) Ede, James Chuter Lawson, John James Sturrock, J. Leng Edmonds, G. Leach, W. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lee, F. Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Linfield, F. C. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Evans, Ernest (Cardigan) Lowth, T. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Lunn, William Thornton, M. Foot, Isaac McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Wallhead, Richard C. George, Rt. Hon. David Lioyd M'Entee, V. L. Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Gilbert, James Daniel McLaren, Andrew Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Marks, Sir George Croydon Webb, Sidney Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Maxton, James Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wheatley, J. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Mosley, Oswald White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Groves, T. Muir, John W. Whiteley, W. Grundy, T. W. Murnin, H. Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.) Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Nichol, Robert Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) O'Grady, Captain James Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Harbord, Arthur Oliver, George Harold Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Hardie, George D. Paling, W. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Harney, E. A. Parker, H. (Hanley) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Hartshorn, Vernon Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Hastings, Patrick Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Phillipps, Vivian Sir A. Marshall and Sir W Edge. Hayday, Arthur Potts, John S.
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Dawson, Sir Philip Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Butcher, Sir John George Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Apsley, Lord. Cadogan, Major Edward Doyle, N. Grattan Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Caine, Gordon Hall Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Edmondson, Major A. J. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Cassels, J. D. Ednam, Viscount Banks, Mitchell Cautley, Henry Strother Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Barnett. Major Richard W. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Ellis, R. G. Barnston, Major Harry Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Becker, Harry Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Chapman, Sir S. Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Churchman, Sir Arthur Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Clarry, Reginald George Fawkes, Major F. H. Berry, Sir George Clayton, G. C. Flanagan, W. H. Betterton, Henry B. Cobb, Sir Cyril Foreman, Sir Henry Birchall. Major J. Dearman Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Forestier-Walker, L. Blades, Sir George Rowland Cohen, Major J. Brunel Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Blundell, F. N. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Furness, G. J. Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Conway, Sir W. Martin Galbraith, J. F. W. Brass, Captain W. Cope, Major William Ganzoni, Sir John Brassey, Sir Leonard Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Garland, C. S. Brittain, Sir Harry Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Gould, James C. Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Gray, Harold (Cambridge) Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Craik. Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Greaves-Lord, Walter Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Bruford, R. Curzon, Captain Viscount Gretton, Colonel John Bruton, Sir James Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Buckingham, Sir H. Davidson, J.C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Gwynne, Rupert S. HacKing, Captain Douglas H. Lorimer. H. D. Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Lort-Willlams, J. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Lougher, L. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Halstead, Major D. Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Lumley, L. R. Russell, William (Bolton) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Harms worth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Harrison, F. C. Maddocks, Henry Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Harvey, Major S. E. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Hawke, John Anthony Margesson, H. D. R. Sandon, Lord Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D Henn, Sir Sydney H. Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Mercer, Colonel H. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Shepperson, E. W. Hewett, Sir J. P. Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Shipwright, Captain D. Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Hiley, Sir Ernest Molloy, Major L. G. S. Skelton, A. N. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Murchison, C. K. Stanley, Lord Hood, Sir Joseph Nail, Major Joseph Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) Hopkins, John W. W. Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Houfton, John Plowright Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Hudson, Capt. A. Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Thorpe, Captain John Henry Hughes, Collingwood Nield, Sir Herbert Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Hume, G. H. Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Tubbs, S. W. Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Turton, Edmund Russborough Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Parker, Owen (Kettering) Wallace, Captain E. Hurd, Percy A. Pease, William Edwin Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley Pennefather, De Fonblanque Waring, Major Walter Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Penny, Frederick George Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Wells, S. R. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Peto, Basil E. White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Jephcott, A. R. Privett, F. J. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Jodreil, Sir Neville Paul Raeburn, Sir William H. Winterton, Earl Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Raine, W. Wise, Frederick Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Rankin, Captain James Stuart Wolmer, Viscount King, Captain Henry Douglas Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F.L.(Ripon) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Reid, D. D. (County Down) Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Lamb, J. Q. Remer, J. R. Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Lane-Fox, Lieut-Colonel G. R. Reynolds, W. G. W. Yerburgh, R. D. T. Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Here lord) Lorden, John William Robertson-Despencer,Major(lsl'gt'nW)
Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
Lord R. CECIL rose in Ms place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 237; Noes, 162.
Division No. 161.] AYES. [8.30 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Brassey, Sir Leonard Chapman, Sir S. Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Brittain, Sir Harry Churchman, Sir Arthur Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Clarry, Reginald George Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Clayton, G. C. Apsley, Lord. Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Cobb, Sir Cyril Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Bruford, R. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Bruton, Sir James Cohen, Major J. Brunel Balfour, George (Hampstead) Buckingham, Sir H. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Banks, Mitchell Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Conway, Sir W. Martin Barnett, Major Richard W. Bull. Rt. Hon. Sir William James Cope, Major William Barnston, Major Harry Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Becker, Harry Butcher, Sir John George Courthope Lieut.-Col. George L. Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devlzes) Cadogan, Major Edward Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Bonn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Caine, Gordon Hall Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Berry, Sir George Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Betterton, Henry B. Cassels, J. D. Curzon, Captain Viscount Birchall. Major J. Dearman Cautley, Henry Strother Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton) Blades, Sir George Rowland Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Davidson, J.C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Blundell, F. N. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Brass, Captain W. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Dawson, Sir Philip Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Raine, W. Doyle, N. Grattan Hurd, Percy A. Rankin, Captain James Stuart Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Edmondson, Major A. J. Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Ednam, Viscount Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Remer, J. R. Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Reynolds, W. G. W. Ellis, R. G. Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Jephcott, A. R. Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isl'gt'nW) Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray King, Captain Henry Douglas Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Fawkes, Major F. H. Lamb, J. Q. Reundell, Colonel R. F. Flanagan, W. H. Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Foreman, Sir Henry Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Russell, Alexander West-(Tynemouth) Forestier-Walker, L. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Russell, William (Bolton) Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Furness, G. J. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Galbraith, J. F. W. Lorden, John William Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Ganzoni, Sir John Lorimer, H. D. Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Garland, C. S. Lort-Willlams, J. Sandon, Lord Gould, James C. Lougher, L. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Gray, Harold (Cambridge) Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Greaves-Lord, Walter Lumley, L. R. Shepperson, E. W. Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Shipwright, Captain D. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Gwynne, Rupert S. Maddocks, Henry Skelton, A. N. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Hall. Lieut. Col. sir F. (Dulwich) Margesson, H. D. R. Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree) Hall, Rr-Admi Sir W.(Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Halstead, Major D. Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Stanley, Lord Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Mercer, Colonel H. Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Stuart, Lord C Crichton- Harrison, F. C. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Harvey, Major S. E. Molloy, Major L. G. S. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Hawke, John Anthony Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Thorpe, Captain John Henry Henn, Sir Sydney H. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Murchison, C. K. Tubbs, S. W. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Nail, Major Joseph Turton, Edmund Russborough Herbert, S (Scarborough) Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Wallace, Captain E. Hewett, Sir J. P. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Waring, Major Walter Hiley, Sir Ernest Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Wells, S. R. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Nield, Sir Herbert White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Hood, Sir Joseph Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Winterton, Earl Hopkins, John W. W. Parker, Owen (Kettering) Wise, Frederick Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Pease, William Edwin Wolmer, Viscount Houfton, John Plowright Pennefather, De Fonblanque Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F.L. (Ripon) Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Penny, Frederick George Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Hudson, Capt. A. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Yerburgh, R. D. T. Hughes, Collingwood Peto, Basil E. Hume, G. H. Privett, F. J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Raeburn, Sir William H. Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.
NOES. Adams, D. Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Chapple, W. A. England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Charleton, H. C. Evans, Ernest (Cardigan) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Clarke, Sir E. C. Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Ammon, Charles George Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Foot, Isaac Attlee, C. R. Collins, Pat (Walsall) George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Collison, Levi Gilbert James Daniel Barnes, A. Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell Graham, D. M (Lanark, Hamilton) Batey, Joseph Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Bonwick, A. Darbishire, C. W. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Bowdler, W. A. Davies, David (Montgomery) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Criffiths. T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Broad, F. A. Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh) Groves, T. Bromfield, William Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Grundy, T. W. Brotherton, J. Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.) Buchanan, G. Dudgeon, Major C. R. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Buckle, J. Duncan, C. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Burgess, S. Ede, James Chuter Harbord, Arthur Burnie. Major J. (Bootle) Edge, Captain Sir William Hardie, George D. Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.) Edmonds, G. Harney, E. A. Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Hartshorn, Vernon Hastings, Patrick McLaren, Andrew Sitch, Charles H. Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Marks, Sir George Croydon Smith, T. (Pontefract) Hayday, Arthur Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Snell, Harry Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Maxton, James Snowden, Philip Hemmerde, E. G. Millar, J. D. Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Herriotts, J. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Spoor, B. G. Hill, A. Mosley, Oswald Stephen, Campbell Hillary, A. E. Muir, John W. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Hirst, G. H. Murnin, H. Sturrock, J. Leng Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Hogge, James Myles Nichol, Robert Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Irving, Dan O'Grady, Captain James Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Jarrett, G. W. S. Oliver, George Harold Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Paling, W. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) Parker, H. (Hanley) Thornton, M. John, William (Rhondda, West) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wallhead, Richard C. Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Phillipps, Vivian Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Potts, John S. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Pringle, W. M. R. Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wheatley, J. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Riley, Ben White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools) Ritson, J. Whiteley, W. Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Williams, David (Swansea, E) Kenyon, Barnet Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Lansbury, George Royce, William Stapleton Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Lawson, John James Saklatvala, S. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Leach, W. Salter, Dr. A. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Lee, F. Sexton, James Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Shakespeare, G. H. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Linfield, F. C. Shinwell, Emanuel Lowth, T. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Lunn, William Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Mr. Neil Maclean and Mr. Morgan McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Simpson, J. Hope Jones. M'Entee, V. L. Sinclair, Sir A.
May I direct your attention, Mr. Hope, to the fact that, before I came out of the Lobby just now, the Tellers had gone, and I was not counted? I believe I was not the only one who was left in the Lobby when the Tellers left. May I further say that this was probably due to the fact that Members, presumably coming in for the next Division, were crowding into the Lobby, making it quite impossible for a correct count to be taken?
I am afraid I can only ask the hon. and gallant Member to enter into negotiations with the Tellers
on the matter. I can only take what the Tellers tell me.
Will you give directions that in future Members shall not crowd into the Lobby before the count has been finished?
I think that hon. Members will be aware of it, now that it has been pointed out.
Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 165: Noes, 238.
Division No. 162.] AYES. [8.40 p.m. Adams, D. Charleton, H. C. Foot, Isaac Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Clarke, Sir E. C. George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Gilbert, James Daniel Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Collins, Pat (Walsall) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Ammon, Charles George Collison, Levl Gray, Frank (Oxford) Attlee, C. R. Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Barnes, A. Darbishire, C. W. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Batey, Joseph Davies, David (Montgomery) Groves, T. Bonwick, A. Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Grundy, T. W. Bowdler, W. A. Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh) Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Broad, F. A. Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Bromfield, William Dudgeon, Major C. R. Harbord, Arthur Brotherton, J. Duncan, C. Hardie, George D. Buchanan, G. Ede, James Chuter Harney, E. A. Buckle, J. Edge, Captain Sir William Hartshorn, Vernon Burgess, S. Edmonds, G. Hastings, Patrick Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.) Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) Hayday, Arthur Buxton, Charles (Accrington) England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Evans, Ernest (Cardigan) Hemmerde, E. G. Chapple, W. A. Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Herriotts, J. Hill, A. Marks, Sir George Croydon Sinclair, Sir A. Hillary, A E. Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Sitch, Charles H. Hirst, G. H. Maxton, James Smith, T. (Pontefract) Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Middleton, G. Snell, Harry Hogge, James Myles Millar, J. D. Snowden, Philip Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Irving, Dan Mosley, Oswald Spoor, B. G. Jarrett, G. W. S. Muir, John W. Stephen, Campbell Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Murnin, H. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western) Sturrock, J. Leng John, William (Rhondda, West) Nichol, Robert Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) O'Grady, Captain James Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Oliver, George Harold Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Paling, W. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Parker, H. (Hanley) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Thornton, M. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Wallhead, Richard C. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Potts, John S. Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools) Pringle, W. M. R. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Kenyon, Barnet Riley, Ben Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Lansbury, George Ritson, J. Wheatley, J. Lawson, John James Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Leach, W. Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Whiteley, W. Lee, F. Royce, William Stapleton Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Saklatvala, S. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Linfield, F. C. Salter, Dr. A. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Lowth, T. Sexton, James Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Lunn, William Shakespeare, G. H. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Shinwell, Emanuel Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) M'Entee, V. L. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) McLaren, Andrew Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Simpson, J. Hope Mr. Phillips and Major McKenzie Wood.
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Cohen, Major J. Brunel Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Harrison, F. C. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Conway, Sir W. Martin Harvey, Major S. E. Apsley, Lord Cope, Major William Hawke, John Anthony Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Banks, Mitchell Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Barnett, Major Richard W. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Barnston, Major Harry Curzon, Captain Viscount Hewett, Sir J. P. Becker, Harry Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton) Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Davidson, J.C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Hiley, Sir Ernest Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Berry, Sir George Dawson, Sir Philip Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Betterton, Henry B. Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Birchall, Major J. Dearman Doyle, N. Grattan Hood, Sir Joseph Blades, Sir George Rowland Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Hopkins, John W. W. Blundell, F. N. Edmondson, Major A. J. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Ednam, Viscount Houfton, John Plowright Brass, Captain W. Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Brassey, Sir Leonard Ellis, R. G. Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Brittain, Sir Harry Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Hudson, Capt. A. Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Hughes, Collingwood Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Hume, G. H. Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Bruford, R. Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Bruton, Sir James Fawkes, Major F. H. Hurd, Percy A. Buckingham, Sir H. Flanagan, W. H. Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Foreman, Sir Henry Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Forestier-Walker, L. Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosden Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Butcher, Sir John George Furness, G. J. Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Cadogan, Major Edward Galbraith, J. F. W. Jephcott. A. R. Caine, Gordon Hall Ganzoni, Sir John Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R Garland, C. S. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Cassels, J. D. Gould, James C. Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Cautley, Henry Strother Gray, Harold (Cambridge) King, Captain Henry Douglas Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Greaves-Lord, Walter Lamb, J. Q. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Gwynne, Rupert S. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Chapman, Sir S. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Churchman, Sir Arthur Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Clarry, Reginald George Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l.W.D'by) Lorden. John William Clayton, G. C. Halstead, Major D. Lorimer, H. D. Cobb, Sir Cyril Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Lort-Williams, J. Lougher, L. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Perkins, Colonel E. K. Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree) Lumley, L. R. Peto, Basil E. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Privett, F. J. Stanley, Lord McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Raeburn, Sir William H. Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) Maddocks, Henry Raine, W. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Rankin, Captain James Stuart Stuart, Lord C Crichton- Margesson, H. D. R. Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Mason, Lleut.-Col. C. K. Remer, J. R. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Mercer, Colonel H. Reynolds, W. G. W. Thorpe, Captain John Henry Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Richardson. Sir Alex. (Gravesend) Tubbs, S. W. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Turton, Edmund Russborough Molloy, Major L. G. S. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Wallace, Captain E. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Robertson-Despencer,Major(lsl'gt'nW) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Waring, Major Walter Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Rounded, Colonel R. F. Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Murchison, C. K. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Wells, S. R. Nall, Major Joseph Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Russell, William (Bolton) White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Samuel, Samuel (Widsworth, Putney) Winterton, Earl Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Wise, Frederick Nicholson. Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Wolmer, Viscount Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Sandon, Lord Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F.L.(Ripon) Nield, Sir Herbert Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Shepperson, E. W. Yerburgh, R. D. T. Pease, William Edwin Shipwright, Captain D. Pennefather, De Fonblanque Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Penny, Frederick George Skelton, A. N. Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.
The next Amendment I propose to call is one which has been handed in by various Members on both sides of the House, including the Lord Privy Seal.
I beg to move to leave out the words "any Regulations" ["made in pursuance of any Regulations"] and to insert instead thereof "Regulation 14B."
I hope this Amendment will do something to allay the apprehension of hon. Members opposite. I accepted the whole basis of the discussion yesterday to be that the Bill was to relieve the Home Secretary and those who have acted under his orders of the consequences of having mistaken the law. That is what I understood the Bill to be brought in for. I did not draft the Bill, because I was not a Member of the Government when it was drafted, but that is what I understood it to be. Since it has been pointed out by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) and others that the Bill goes further, I think it is right to limit it to that single case. I have some reason to believe that the words I have given notice of—and others independently of myself have arrived at the same conclusion—are the proper words to limit the action of the Bill. There is a consequential Amendment striking out "Regulations" and inserting "Regulation."
I think I recognise this Amendment as the one which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) and I and some other hon. Members handed in a little time ago, and I am very glad indeed that the Government independently, moved with the same object, should have seen their way to propose this change. It cannot be too clearly understood that this is not a mere technical change. It, in fact, alters the language and the meaning of the Bill. I recognise most fully and frankly that the Noble Lord in introducing the Amendment is merely carrying out in the spirit what he had previously indicated was his understanding of the Bill. It was because the Bill needed to be altered in this respect that my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) and some others made the alteration which we did just now, and I am very glad the Noble Lord should make this proposal. May I ask whether there will be a consequential Amendment not only altering "Regulations" to "Regulation" but Amendments further down the Clause which will, of course, cut down the reference in line 15 to "the said Regulations" so that again we are limited to Regulation 14B.
Yes.
On the understanding that the whole thing now is reduced in its compass to what has already been done under Regulation 14B, I do not think my Friends and I would have any objection at all to the Amendment.
I presume the Bill will not apply to any of the employes of the Irish Government at Mountjoy Prison who had our people under their charge?
This Amendment is all very well in its way, but it, obviously does not go far enough. It is an admission that the Bill, as the Government originally drafted it, was an Act of Indemnity for all sorts of acts committed under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act, but now it is confined to Regulation 14B. Under Regulation 14B there are hundreds of other acts which have been committed in addition to these deportations to Ireland. Is it not obvious that now the Government have gone part of the way to meet the very legitimate criticism which has been levelled against the Bill, they had much better re-draft it and make it perfect instead of making it a hotch-potch. Take, particularly, the manuscript Amendment which they have circulated. It is most inconvenient to have these Amedments circulated in manuscript, where you cannot possibly draft Amendments to them. In this Amendment the Government go the whole hog. They specifically mention the people who have been deported to Ireland since the 6th day of December. Why cannot they have that amount of precision in the main body of the Bill as well as in the proviso which deals with compensation? Surely that is necessary to confine the compensation to the particular case of the people who have been illegally deported. They might, in some way, have confined the indemnity to that act of deportation instead of broadcasting it over every sort of illegal act which has been committed under Regulation 14B which may be proved to be illegal. Therefore, I suggest that the Government should not press this Amendment, but should re-draft the Clause, so that it shall be as specific as the specification in the draft manuscript Amendment, which has yet to be moved, referring to the people who have been deported to Ireland since the 6th day of December, 1922.
If this Amendment be accepted, will it necessitate the Amend- ment of the Title of the Bill, and, if so, will that Amendment be made?
indicated dissent .
The Noble Lord shakes his head.
It does not matter if the title is too wide.
It is rather clumsy. Is there not something in what the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) has said? I do not suppose that the Noble Lord will withdraw his Amendment, but will he consider the matter with a view to subsequently putting the Clause into a more decent form? Cannot he limit the indemnity, just as he limits the occasion in the manuscript Amendment? Regulation 14B may cover a number of other things that have been done. I suggest that between now and another stage the Noble Lord might seriously consider that point, because it is a very clumsy way of drawing a Bill to leave it open to cover a number of things which it is not intended to cover at all.
I am told that it does not cover them.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, after the words last inserted, to insert the words "purporting to have been."
I accept the Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, after the word "the" ["for the purpose of"] to insert the word "alleged".
This is a drafting Amendment, because the act may not have been done for the purpose though it may have been done for the alleged purpose of carrying such Order into effect. If you want complete protection for the persons to whom this Bill is intended to apply you must provide for this alleged purpose, in case the purpose is not a legal purpose.
I have no great objection to this Amendment, and if the hon. Member desires to press it I cannot resist it. It extends the ambit of the Bill, and I should have thought that we were sufficiently protected, without the use of the word "alleged." Therefore, unless the hon. Member is very anxious for the insertion of the Amendment, I hope that he will not press it.
I am not anxious about it. I only wanted to hear the views of the Noble Lord upon the point. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
9.0 P.M.
I beg to move, to leave out the words
"or done in purported exercise of any powers under the said Regulations."
I want to protest against the manner in which, under this unfortunate Government, we have to conduct our business. We are here discussing practically a new Measure. First of all, we have handed to us a Bill which admittedly deals with something we are not discussing now. Then, without notice, we are asked to discuss quite a separate Measure. I want to protest against the whole system of what is practically retrospective legislation. Since I have been in this House we have spent a considerable proportion of our time either in indemnifying people who claim to have misunderstood the law, or in compensating others for not subscribing to the law. The Government is not playing the game. When you make blunders you ought to stand up to the consequences of your blunders. There may come a time when we may have established something in the nature of a British Free State, a State in which 70 per cent, or 80 per cent, of the people who are kept to-day in economic subjection may be set free.
I fail to see the connection between these observations and the Amendment to leave out certain words.
My point is, that we have had put into our hands proposals to indemnify people of a certain class, simply because they belong to the Government who have a majority in this House, and to protect them from the consequences of their foolish actions. We have to spend hours and days trying to make good the blunders of the Government. Surely, we are entitled to protest against that. The longer the Govern- ment, or the people who compose the Government, are in office and control this House, the more muddled conditions will become.
The hon. Member is going far beyond the Amendment. The Amendment is a very narrow one. So far, we have passed words giving an indemnity for the issue of any Order, or for any act done for the purpose of carrying out the Order, and the only question now is whether we are to extend that indemnity to any act done in purported exercise of any power under the Regulation. The hon. Member cannot enter into general considerations on that narrow issue.
I submit that this Clause as it stands gives an indemnity for every act both before and after the passing of the Act.
That is not what we are discussing now. The only question which we are discussing now is whether the indemnity, whatever it may be, shall extend to acts done under the Regulations as apart from the Order. The point which the hon. Member is making is covered by a later Amendment.
This is to indemnify people, who probably believed that they were acting rightly, for having done an illegal act. I want to enter my protest against that. In view of what has been said, that the wider question shall be discussed at a later stage, I will content myself with formally moving my Amendment.
The Question is, "That the words 'or done' stand part of the Clause."
I think that I can meet the hon. Gentleman as far as to accept the Amendment. I do not think that these words are necessary. I am anxious to make this Bill, so far as I can, a Bill in accordance with the general sense of the Committee.
While I thank the Noble Lord for his concession, I wish that before attention is drawn to the clumsy nature of the Bill—
That is the use of Debate in the House of Commons.
I think that the Government should read their own Bill and save us the time that is now spent in drawing attention to its defects.
The hon. Gentleman is rather hard on the Government. We are trying to meet the point which is raised in Debate. The object of having a Bill considered in Committee is to enable all Members to make suggestions. We are anxious to meet them as far as possible, but the hon. Gentleman cannot suggest that we are bound to foresee every Amendment which he may think is reasonable.
I understand you, Sir, to say that the Question was that the words "or done" are to be left out. I understand that the Amendment is to leave out the words "or done in purported exercise of any powers under the said Regulations."
If all those words go out, it is a very different matter.
That is so.
I agree entirely with the "Noble Lord that the object of this discussion is that we should see that the Bill is in a right form. I want to be sure that this Clause, in the form in which it will stand after the change is made, is a Clause which, on the face of it, will show that nothing that has been covered by indemnity unless it is something that was done before the passing of the Act. That was the reason why, as I understand, you put the question only down to the word "done." If the Noble Lord will explain the form of the Clause I shall be very grateful, because it is desirable that the Clause, in the form in which the Committee passes it, should make clear not only that the Order under Regulation No. 14B should be an Order made before the passing of the Act—for that is secured by words already passed—but also that we shall be covering by indemnity no acts, except acts done before the passing of the Act.
I think that that will be done by the Amendment to insert the words "before the passing of this Act."
Perhaps the Noble Lord will read the Clause as it would stand, assuming that this change, which we are now proposing to make, was made.
If I do not accept this particular Amendment, the suggested words would come in naturally after the word "done," but now I am afraid that, in order to make them read, we shall have to draft fresh words.
That is what I was afraid of.
Personally I do not think that the words which the hon. Gentleman opposite moved to omit really matter. That is why I accepted their omission. But if it be thought more convenient to keep those words in—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—and to insert the words "before the passing of this Act" after the word "done," I will do that. If not, it may be necessary to put in some other proviso.
I would suggest, in view of the confusion that has arisen—
The hon. Gentleman cannot interrupt the Noble Lord.
If the hon. Member will give me a moment, I will read the Clause with the suggested Amendment.
I would suggest that we should adjourn to re-draft the Bill.
Would it be in order to move that the Committee should adjourn for half an hour to give the Government an opportunity of re-drafting this Measure, and submitting it in an intelligible form?
I will accept the Amendment which we are now discussing, and agree to insert at the end of the Clause words to provide that this Clause shall not apply to any act done after the passing of this Act.
Surely the Noble Lord must realise how much this House has already suffered through hastily drafted Acts of Parliament. It will be an unfortunate thing to be rushed into giving Parliamentary sanction to a form of words which has been hastily considered, even by the Members of the Government.
The hon. Member is mistaken. The form of words is to go in as a proviso, as I understand, at the end. For the moment the Government accept the Amendment of the hon. Member.
What I want to draw attention to is the fact that the Government are now presenting a new Bill to the House.
The hon. Member is in order on this Amendment, and now the Committee are prepared to accept it.
Can we now know what the proviso is?
I understand that the Noble Lord has already stated that it will prevent the indemnity applying to proceedings taken for anything done after the passing of this Act.
The acceptance of this Amendment rules out two subsequent Amendments which stand in the names of hon. Members. The Government had every opportunity of drafting this Clause to meet the case which has been made about not giving an indemnity against acts which happen after the passing of this Act. These other Amendments cannot now be discussed until we have had an opportunity of looking into the question. I desire to ask a ruling whether, if this Amendment be accepted, subsequent Amendments which stand in my name and in the name of the right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) will thereby be ruled out of order.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman's Amendment will have to be amended and put in a slightly different form and then it will be in order.
We cannot possibly redraft our Amendment without knowing how the Government Clause is to read.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman has already been informed of that by the Noble Lord.
My hon. and gallant Friend appears to think it is a very unusual thing to accept an Amendment. I have accepted an Amendment moved by one of his followers, and I cannot help it if anything in it has an effect on any other Amendment. That is not my fault.
Can we have the words of the proviso which the Noble Lord intends to move?
It would not be in order for me to read them now. I have them drafted, and I shall be happy to show them to the hon. Member.
Will it be in order to move any Amendment to the proviso of the Noble Lord?
The fact that it is a proviso would not prevent any Amendment being proposed.
Question, "That the words 'or done' stand part of the Clause," put, and. negatived.
Further Amendment made: Leave out the words, "in purported exercise of any powers under the said Regulations."— [ Mr. Wheatley. ]
We shall require to see the Clause as it is now framed before we can re-draft our Amendments, and I think we ought to be given: an opportunity of re-drafting them.
It is quite true that the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Member needs a little change (which I was going to point out to him) to bring it within order. The Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Bothwell (Mr. Robertson) is in order, but it will have to be put as from the word last in the Bill, and that will be the word "effect."
Will the Noble Lord extend to me the privilege he has offered to the hon. Member for Merthyr (Mr. Wallhead) of seeing the proviso? And would it be in order for the rest of us to have an opportunity of seeing it at-some subsequent stage? Will it also be in order to move Amendments to it? Am I expected to move an Amendment on the spur of the moment in the same way as the Government have drafted this Bill? We do not do business in that way.
That is not a point of Order. The Noble Lord said he would be glad to communicate the proviso which he has drafted to hon. Members concerned.
The Noble Lord has said he will submit it to me. When will he do so?
I will submit it to the hon. Member now.
Why are the hon. Member for Merthyr and myself to be so favoured?
This is really quits irregular. The Noble Lord has said he will show the hon. Member the proviso, and in the meantime we must proceed with the Amendments on the Paper. I call on the hon. Member for Caerphilly.
I beg to move to leave out the words
"and if any such proceeding has been instituted, whether before or after the passing of this Act, it shall be discharged and made void."
It will be known to Members of the Committee that, in consequence of the action of the Government in deporting illegally a number of these Irish people, and since the House of Lords declined to proceed with the case, a number of these people have commenced proceedings in the Law Courts. As I understand it, the effect of this Bill, unless it is altered in the way I suggest, will be that these unfortunate people will be deprived of the opportunity and privilege—which is their elementary right—of appearing before a court of law and stating their case against the Government or its Members. I would suggest to the Committee that, in moving this Amendment this evening, we are, in affect, re-stating the elementary right which appertains to every English citizen, and I think we shall have the Members of the Committee generally with us in our attempt to safeguard a right which has been the heritage of British citizens for many centuries. The flame of the lamp of liberty is just now being reduced to a very faint nicker, and when liberty is being challenged, as it is in these days in many directions, it is vital that the House of Commons should safeguard those rights very deliberately. It may be argued on the part of the Government that these people will in fact be allowed to submit their cases to another tribunal. That is perfectly true. But there is a tribunal already set up by Parliament which has been in operation for many centuries, and that is the Court of Law. If it is conceded that these people have a case at all to go before any kind of tribunal, then obviously the tribunal before whom they should go is the Court of Justice in this land. However well intentioned may be the gentlemen who constitute the special tribunal, it is vital that this Committee should reiterate its determination to allow these people who have already commenced proceedings against officials of the Crown to prosecute them in the Courts of Law. That right is the elementary right of the citizens of this country. It has been held that the words "or after" have a connotation which is very extensive. A large number of those who have some regard for the elementary rights of the people are alarmed that the Government should be demanding the right to prevent people from obtaining the due process of law as against Members of the Government who, rightly or wrongly—in good faith, I dare say—have treated them illegally by an abuse of the powers reposed in them. It is for that reason that I move the Amendment.
As I understand it, this raises the important question whether these deportees shall have the right of pursuing their actions in the High Court, or whether in the alternative they shall follow the course suggested in the Amendment of the Government of going before a special tribunal. That is a very important question which deserves careful consideration. It is true that a certain number of these people who have been adversely affected have commenced proceedings in the High Court of Justice. By that means they will undoubtedly be able to have their compensation assessed by a British jury, under the direction of one of the Judges of the High Court. It is a very important question that we have to decide—whether they shall be deprived of the right to have their compensation assessed in that way. The alternative is that there shall be set up a special tribunal, consisting, I understand, of three persons, the head of it to be a gentleman who has held high judicial office, or is at present occupying such a position. I have considerable doubts whether it is a wise thing to deprive these people of the right to go before a British jury, although on consideration I have come to the conclusion that perhaps they are far.more likely to get a larger sum from the special tribunal than from any British jury. I can understand all sorts of questions, of prejudice, perhaps, being brought against these men, as to their past actions, which would have weight with a jury, and perhaps would not weigh so much with a special tribunal.
I am also impressed with the importance of the question whether there would not be considerable delay if all these claims had to be prosecuted in the Courts and if juries had to sit day by day to hear the cases. There is the further question whether, in the assessment of compensation in all the cases, it is not better to have one tribunal to do the work. In the ordinary course, if these cases go before the High Court, they will be considered separately. It cannot be expected that 12 gentlemen of a jury can spend all their time in considering the cases. The result might well be that a large number of juries will have to be empanelled. In the interests of the people themselves, it is very important that there should be some consistency in the assessment of compensation and that the same considerations in measuring compensation should be applied in all cases. On balance and with some hesitation I have come to the conclusion that, provided the special tribunal is composed of a Judge of the High Court and of two other members who might be said to represent the man in the street, justice will be done in that way. No doubt there can be put to these men questions which are outside the particular matter of the consideration of damages—questions which might prejudice them in the mind of twelve men sitting in a jury box though they would not have such an effect in the case of a special tribunal.
I think it is better to have all the cases considered by one tribunal, provided we can be satisfied as to its composition. In that way we may get some consistency in the amount of damages assessed. One alteration of the Bill is certainly required. In the case of all the actions which have already been commenced, the Judge of the High Court should have the right to state exactly what should happen to the costs and who should pay them. There is no provision of that kind in the Bill. The case ought to be met, for these people had a perfect right to commence proceedings, seeing that there was no question of any Bill coming before the House at the time. I hope that the Attorney-General will see that, so far as the institution of proceedings before the commencement of this Bill is concerned, the people who have brought the proceedings are fairly met on the question of costs and expenses.
On the last point raised by the hon. Member, namely, the expenses of people who have already started action, I hope that the Attorney- General will see his way to meet the request that has been made, for I can assure him that—
That matter can be raised on a later Amendment, which I shall call in due course.
Which Amendment is that?
An Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for the City of Oxford (Mr. F. Gray).
If that is the view of the Chair, I raise no objection, but I would point out that the last speaker dealt with the subject at some length.
I do not think he dealt with it at length. I was about to rise to stop him when he concluded his speech.
I do not mind when it is raised so long as it is raised at some time.
I propose to address myself to the subject-matter of the Amendment before the Committee, and in response to the observation made by the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood), who, I understand, is the only real spokesman for the Government, if he is concerned, as I understood he is, to see that these deportees get fair treatment, then that can be fairly met by giving these deportees at least the option of going before the Courts of our land or the special tribunal which is being set up. For my own part, I am not concerned with whether they get large or small compensation, or whether they get large compensation before one tribunal and small compensation before another, provided always that they get what they are fairly and squarely entitled to, having regard to the circumstances of each particular case. As I think some hon. Members know, I have had the advantage or disadvantage of being trained as a lawyer, and therefore I, for one, again like the hon. Member for West Woolwich, have some respect and regard still for the Courts of our land and British juries in trying these cases, and the fact that a British jury may award these people a smaller sum than they would get under the tribunal does not weigh with me. On the other hand, I do see a considerable danger to these men in setting up a tribunal and sending them before it.
It is quite true that the words "after the passing of this Act" occur in this Clause, but this only refers to proceedings already instituted. It is not in Order to refer to the main question of the courts and a tribunal.
On a point of Order. May I take it that your ruling is that, if proceedings were instituted after the passing of this Act, they would not be discharged and made void by the passing of this Act?
My ruling is only that the argument must be confined to the proceedings instituted and not to the general question as between the courts and the new tribunal.
May I call your attention to the fact that the wording of the Bill refers not merely to proceedings instituted "before the passing of the Act," but to proceedings instituted "after the passing of the Act"? We are proposing to leave that out, and I ask whether that does not cover proceedings that have not now been instituted.
If we have already passed, as I understand we have, words that say that no proceedings shall be instituted, it follows quite naturally that you must say that if any proceedings have been instituted or by any chance do get instituted they must be discharged. Why discriminate unfairly as between someone who has been prompt or lucky in instituting proceedings and someone what has not?
The words are "if any such proceeding has been instituted it shall be discharged."
Therefore, the argument must be confined to whether such proceedings shall or shall not be discharged.
May I take it that you are leaving out from consideration the words "whether before or after the passing of this Act"?
The hon. Member moved to leave out the whole of the words, and therefore that has been put. All I can say is that the argument must be confined to the question as to whether proceedings which have been instituted shall be discharged. Earlier in the evening the whole question as between the courts and some new tribunal was dis- cussed, and that will be renewed in some form when the proviso of the Government is moved. This is a narrower and much more technical question.
Surely it is clear that the words to be left out are "and if any such proceeding has been instituted, whether before or after the passing of this Act, it shall be discharged."
Those words must contemplate proceedings instituted after the passing of this Bill, in which case this Bill, when it becomes an Act, will authorise the courts to discharge those proceedings even if instituted after the passing of the Act. Therefore, the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) and the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. F. Gray) are in order in discussing the effect of preventing suitors having access to the courts in connection with proceedings that may be instituted after the passing of the Act.
I think not The main question is whether such proceedings shall be instituted. These words contemplate two classes of case; the first in which proceedings have been already instituted lawfully, and the second where, apparently, proceedings have been instituted in disregard of the law. The whole question as to whether there shall be a separate tribunal or whether recourse can be had to the ordinary courts will not be in order on these particular words.
Surely either these words
"whether before or after the passing of this Act,"
are merely surplusage, which they seem to be—and,if so, it seems unnecessary that we should be troubled with them. If the intention is that in the future no action shall be started, it must be surplusage to put in "whether before or after the passing of thie Act." I know reference is frequently made to the continued appearance of lawyers, but it is because these Acts are So framed that no ordinary man can understand them. If the Attorney-General will say that these words are surplusage this question would not arise. If not, I consider it is necessary to discuss what will happen, if action is started after the passing of the Act. I think the words are surplusage.
I think these words must have got in by a slip. The object of the Clause is to forbid the initia- tion of proceedings after the passing of the Act, and secondly to discharge proceedings instituted before the passing of the Act. In the Indemnity Act of 1920 that double provision appeared. In the Act of 1920, after the words exactly on the same lines as the first part of this Clause forbidding the institution of future proceedings, there follow at the end of Sub-section (1), before the proviso, the words
"and if any such proceeding has been instituted, whether before or after the passing of this Act, it shall be discharged and made void."
You get there the same phraseology, and I think it does not add anything to the real purport of the Clause—
I do not see that this is a question of Order. It is a legal argument that might be addressed to the Attorney-General, but I hardly stee how it concerns me.
I am only speaking on the scope of the discussion, and as to whether these words "whether before or after" are words which really have any operative effect. My own suggestion is that the only word which has any operative effect is the word "before," and that therefore the discussion on this Amendment should be limited to the question of proceedings instituted before the passing of the Act.
On the point of Order. May I point out that, while my hon. and learned Friend might be perfectly right if the Amendment were to leave out the words "before or after," that such is not the Amendment, therefore his argument has been devoted to an Amendment which is not really before the Committee? The Amendment before the Committee is to omit the words
"and if any such proceeding has been instituted, whether before or after the passing of this Act, it shall be discharged and made void."
Therefore the only question that can be in order at present is whether or not such proceedings shall be discharged. If hon. Members opposite do move an Amendment to leave out the words "before or after" it may be discussed, but that has not been done. The question has already been put from the Chair that these words stand part, and no discussion on the words "before or after" can be in order.
I do not think the right hon. Gentleman was in his place when this discussion began. The origin of the discussion was as to whether the Committee is entitled to discuss on this Amendment, to leave out all these words, the poseibility of proceedings being instituted after the passing of the Act. You, Mr. Hope, were inclined to think that we were not entitled to discuss the question of the tribunals before which these casee might come if they were instituted. It was on that point that the whole of the present discussion arose, and I submit that we are entitled to discuss what would happen if proceedings were instituted after the passing of the Act.
On the point of Order put by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), I can only repeat the ruling which I gave some quarter of an hour ago, that the question of whether persons aggrieved should go to the courts or to the new tribunal cannot be discussed. The only question that can be discussed is whether actions which have been instituted shall or shall not be discharged. Whether, in view of the first words of the Clause, any action can be instituted after the passing of the Act I cannot say. It is for those who are more learned than I to say, but certainly the question, which has been to some extent discussed before, and will probably to some extent be discussed again, cannot be raised on this Amendment.
rose —
I do not know whether my right hon. Friend intends to speak on a point of Order. If he does not, I think I am in possession of the Committee, and if he does, I think I had better raise a point of Order myself so that I may again come into possession of the Committee. May I say at once that if I have contravened the Rules of the House, I extremely regret it, particularly as I was nearing the close of my remarks. What I did was to pursue my hon. Friend the Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood), and I did not think I was travelling beyond the province into which he had already passed. I did not like to challenge, in any way, your ruling, Sir, but the point which I was endeavouring to make was that suspending or discharging proceedings which are pending before the Courts of this land—having regard to what we suspect will be the conclusion of this Bill, which is to be disclosed later—may mean that these people must come before the tribunal. I was endeavouring to argue that, at least, they should be given an option where they had already commenced proceedings, and I was proposing to point out—to anticipate a difficulty which might be raised by the Attorney-General—that the proceedings now pending might be properly confined to the common law rights of these persons, and restricted in respect of the Act of Charles II.
I do not think those who have supported this Amendment have fully worked out in their own minds what its effect would be. I am sure they do not wish, under the guise of a comparatively trifling Amendment, to wreck the whole Bill, but that is what the result would be. The intention of the Bill is to give an indemnity. That is common ground. The method adopted in the Bill is to provide that no legal proceedings, either civil or criminal, shall be instituted. If you stop there, any proceedings either criminal or civil which had been instituted before the passing of the Act would not be affected, and therefore anybody who wished to put in force, let us say, the Statute of Præmunire , or the £500 penalty under the Habeas Corpus Act, or any of the other provisions which I think almost everybody agrees ought not to be put into effect, could start his proceedings before this Bill received the Royal Assent. If he did so, then the proceedings would have been instituted before the passing of the Act, and therefore the Bill would have no effect at all. The passage of this Amendment would cause the whole scheme and framework of the Bill to be swept aside, because everybody who issued a writ for a civil claim or a summons for criminal proceedings before the Royal Assent was given, would be able to go on unaffected by this Measure.
I appreciate that point, but I asked the learned Attorney-General, when I was speaking, whether that could not be met by confining these people to their common law right and depriving them of their rights under the Habeas Corpus Act and other peculiar Acts of antiquity.
It would be possible to provide that by some other Amendment than this, but it is with this Amendment that I am dealing. It would be possible to provide that any claim for compensation should be assessed in the courts of law instead of by a special tribunal. The Amendment which I am hoping to move presently no doubt could be altered, though I hope it will not be altered, so as to cover that point, but the Amendment before the Committee is one which wrecks the whole Bill for the reason I have indicated—and I think the hon. and learned Member for Wallsend (Mr. Hastings) will assent to my view—and I think, if that fact is appreciated, the Amendment will not be pressed.
Would the learned Attorney-General explain for the benefit of the Committee and the Chair exactly what he means when he uses the words "before or after the passing of the Act"?
As my hon. and learned Friend the Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Sir L. Scott) pointed out, the words under discussion are taken textually from the Indemnity Act of 1920. I think that without them probably the Court would construe the Clause as having the same effect as with them, but we obviously intend that the Clause shall mean what we say quite plainly that it does mean by putting the words in, and, as the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) no doubt appreciates, when the Courts have to construe a Statute and they find a change of language from some preceding Statute, they assume that there must be a change of meaning, and they try to find what that change of meaning is. As we have these words, which mean what we mean here in the earlier Act, if we proceeded here to change the language, we might enable some ingenious Judge to find out that by changing the language we had meant to show that we did not mean the same thing, and therefore that we had effected something different from what was done by the 1920 Act, and what is admittedly intended to be done by the present Act. Nobody can suggest that putting these words in can do any harm, and inasmuch as they follow the exact words of the earlier Act, which effect exactly what we intend to effect, I think it is very much better to keep them in.
What is going to be the position of this Committee? We are now discussing the third Amendment. The Government themselves have made it necessary to have a Report stage, and we have then to proceed to the Third Reading of a Bill, in regard to which everybody at thie moment is absolutely confused. It was first denied from the other side that this Bill went beyond the particular action of the Home Secretary. That was not only strenuously denied, but, when it was challenged, the legal opinion of those who challenged it was seriously criticised. In two hours it was not only admitted that the Treasury Bench were wrong, but they themselves proceeded to rectify the mistake by a manuscript Amendment. Now we have reached a further stage, on the third Amendment, be it remembered, where not only Members on this side challenge the situation, but the hon. and learned Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Sir L. Scott), who held office in the late Government, again supplements our views.
If I might interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, I did not intend to supplement the views of the hon. Members opposite. I was merely speaking on the point of Order. The Bill seems to me to be a sound Bill.
It is so sound that nearly every lawyer in the Committee disagrees about it, and, as I am reminded by an hon. Friend, it is so sound that it would be very interesting to know if my hon. and learned Friend opposite could really tell us what it means. I would like to submit to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury this point. We have reached the third Amendment, and a Report stage is necessary. It is already admitted that it may be necessary even to alter this Bill in another place, and I would appeal to my right hon. Friend—
How does the right hon. Gentleman connect what he is saying with the Amendment before the Committee?
I anticipated you would have some difficulty over the point. My connection is this, that the Attorney-General has just repeated that the object of this Bill is to indemnify the Home Secretary alone. He has said that that is common ground, which is admitted, and I am endeavouring to show that that will be impossible unless a further day is given to consider the whole question in order to ensure that what he intends is carried out. That is the connection.
10.0 P.M.
It is not a sound connection. The Attorney-General said that the effect of the Amendment would be to destroy what was agreed upon about criminal proceedings and otherwise earlier iiv the Clause, and the question is whether proceedings which have already been instituted shall or shall not be discharged. I must ask the right hon. Gentleman to deal with that question.
On the point of Order. Is the argument which has been put forward by the right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) not an argument meeting that of the Attorney-General that it would wreck the Bill, the point being that this matter of the wrecking of the Bill is something that the Government ought to consider?
I am not a lawyer, yet it seems to me that the Attorney-General is wrong and that the Amendment is not going to have the effect of wrecking the Bill at all. In the case of an ordinary Bill it would have that effect, but this Bill is going through all its stages to-night and will receive the Royal Assent at the shortest possible notice. No proceedings can be instituted after it becomes an Act, and, once it has received the Royal Assent, with the wording at the beginning of the Clause, it prevents anybody from taking action then. On the other hand, if any such proceedings have been instituted, it is argued that it is going to nullify the words in the beginning of the Clause, but it seems to me that those who have instituted the proceedings are entitled to some consideration, in so far as they have taken the first step they possibly could in trying to petition the House yesterday to have their objection to the Bill raised at the Bar of the House. That was rejected, and while it is intended by the Government that in addition to indemnifying the Home Secretary and the officers of the Crown from any illegal act which they have committed, those who were wrongfully deported shall be given the opportunity of being compensated, if this is put through, it means that those who have already instituted proceedings are not going to have, a full opportunity. They have already let themselves in for costs.
Another point that has to be kept in mind by the Committee in considering this matter is that, while the original intention of the Government was to indemnify the Home Secretary and the other officers of the Crown from any penalties attaching to their illegal acts, the deportees are not protected in the same way at all. Those who have been wrongfully arrested and deported, that is to say, those against whom no charge has been preferred or will be preferred, are not going to be indemnified against prosecution. Indeed, at the moment some of them are already under trial, and there is no question of preventing that in this Bill. If these words are taken out, it puts the Government in the matter of proceedings already instituted only on the same footing as those they are prosecuting. It seems to me, as an ordinary Member of the House without any legal training, to be only fair that those who have broken the law in both cases should be on an equal footing, and that one section should not be in a privileged position, because they hold power, for the time being, to indemnify themselves. In these circumstances I think the Committee would be well advised in letting this go. A few minutes ago the Committee got into a tangle about what this really meant—whether certain words should be allowed in or not. The fact that the Bill is going through to-night and will receive the Koyal Assent before any action could he taken, shows that this is not going to wreck the Bill at all. All those words, "whether before or after the passing of the Act," are tautological. They are redundant in the Bill, and do not matter at all. If they are removed, it would not affect the intention of the Clause, and I hope the Committee will agree to the Amendment which I have much pleasure in supporting.
I should like to have an explanation as to the meaning of these words. I would like to know whether the phrase means, "If any such proceeding has been instituted before, or may be instituted after the passing of this Act"? Do the words in the Bill mean what they say, or do they mean something else I As they stand I have a misapprehension as to their meaning. "If any such proceeding has been instituted whether before or after the passing of the Act." I do not see how any such proceeding could exist.
I think I see the view of the Government. They want to declare null and void and to discharge any proceedings which have been instituted in the Courts at the moment, and I take it from their pervious statement that, in a generous moment, they want to remit to a tribunal the question of assessing the damages that are due. What the Committee fails to appreciate is that the Government have lost all faith in Judges. You would gather from the remarks of the Attorney-General in discussing an Amendment a few moments ago that he regarded with great anxiety what Judges might read into an Act of Parliament if it were not very carefully drafted. I do not think it is the duty of an Attorney-General to depreciate in the public estimation the value of Judges. It is from men occupying the eminent position of the Attorney-General that Judges are appointed. One day even the decisions of the right hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General may be called in question, just like his decisions in regard to certain things that have occurred in this House to-day. I think it is the duty of the House to maintain that reputation for sagacity and independence which our judges and Courts have to-day. Again I appeal to the Committee not to allow the Government to get this Measure through as it is presented here. It is quite clear what advantage would be gained by the Government if their policy were adopted. They cannot control the Courts, but they can control tribunals because they appoint tribunals.
The question we are considering is whether the proceedings instituted shall be discharged.
I thought it was quite evident that I was leading up to that point. If the proceedings already instituted are discharged, then the case is taken out of the hands of the Courts. They are taken from the Courts and remitted to a tribunal appointed and to some extent controlled by the Government who appoints them. That is not the way to carry on the business of this country, and I protest against it.
I would like to make it clear to the Attorney-General that I agree entirely with what he says that if the words
"if any such proceeding has heen instituted, whether before or after the passing of the Act, it shall be discharged and made void"
were taken out, that would go a long way to wreck the Bill. If one action was allowed to proceed against the Home Secretary, with all the penalties and pains that would follow, the effect would be to wreck the whole Bill. But having said that, I urge upon him that he should make the Bill clear. I do not know anybody who knows what the words of the Bill really are at this moment. I have been very fair to the Attorney-General, and he would be fair to us if he or someone would read to us how the Clause actually stands just now. The right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) has not the least idea, and nobody behind him has the faintest idea. Will the Attorney-General tell us therefore what we have passed up till now?
On a point of Order. Would that not arise on the Question "That the Clause stand part of the Bill?"
It is entirely out of order on an Amendment that certain words be left out, to ask the Attorney-General to state how the Bill stands.
I suggest to the Noble Lord in charge of the Bill that he might consider some alteration in the wording of this Clause. I have tried to understand it, but for the life of me I cannot. The words as they stand are
"if any such proceeding has been instituted, whether before or after the passing of this Act."
One set of words refer to the past tense and one set to the future. It seems to me that if we are to make sense of them they should be "if any such proceedings have been or may be instituted." The words as they stand are perfectly unintelligible, and this seems to me to be an added argument for taking the whole thing back for redrafting.
The point I wish to make is that if this part of the Clause is omitted, there will be the opportunity given in those cases which have already been instituted to go to the ordinary Court. The Attorney-General has only got one thing to say against that, and what he has said is pretty damaging. He said that it would wreck the Bill. I want to suggest to the Attorney-General that he ought to accept this Amendment, and that he should see that it does not wreck the Bill in the same manner as the Noble Lord provided for a similar Amendment by means of a proviso. You then get rid of praemunire and the various other things that the right hon. and learned Gentleman wishes to avoid. At the same time, the passing of this Amendment, and the omission of this part of the Clause would result in some of these people getting their cases decided in un ordinary Court of Law by judges who would not get secret regulations issued to them by members of the Government If there were some decisions given in this way by an independent Court, then there would be guidance in regard to any other proceedings that might be taken.
I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) is under a misapprehension as to what the Attorney-General said. I listened closely to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and what he said was that this Bill was brought in to indemnify the Home Secretary only. Do I now understand it is to indemnify not only the Home Secretary but all those who have been associated with him in this matter of the deportations? It is because of that that these words in the last part of the Clause are necessary. It seems to me, if I may put it with all deference to the Attorney-General, that these words "after the passing of this Act" arise in this way. It may be that some man who has acted under orders and has arrested one of the men or women who have been deported to Ireland has been guilty of either a criminal act or a civil act for which he will be liable to damages. Assume that his name is Smith. Assume that after the passing of this Act one of the deportees goes down to the High Court of Justice, Central Office, pays his 10s., and issues his writ asking for damages for false imprisonment or damages for assault. There would be no method of discharging that writ and getting rid of these proceedings unless these words "and if any such proceeding has been instituted" came before the words "whether before or after the passing of this Act." That seems to me to be the reason of these words being there. If once you admit the principle that Courts of Justice are to be kept out and another tribunal is to be set up then, I understand, we shall hear something of the constitution a little bit later. I think the House is satisfied—I am speaking for myself and I think for those with me on this side—and we shall oppose this Amendment, and for the reason that it is obvious it would wreck the Bill.
Cannot we have a reply from the Attorney-General—[HON. MEMBERS: "He has replied!"]—in answer to the question put by my hon. Friends? Cannot we have the claims read?
I am quite prepared at the proper stage to reply, but all we are discussing at the moment is whether or not certain words are or are not to remain in the Bill. The effect of leaving them out of the Bill— this is a legal point—would be to wreck the Bill; to destroy the whole object of the Bill. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] Every lawyer who has spoken either from the Labour or the Liberal benches are agreed as to that. We are discussing at this stage whether these words should be in or go out. I am quite ready to read the Clause at a suitable stage, but it would be more convenient when we have got the Clause completed.
Is it not the case that the reason for this Bill is that lawyers have already given certain advice and have made this particular Bill necessary. If they were wrong before, may they not be wrong now? I think the Attorney-General should state what is the actual position so that we may know whether the deletion of these words will really wreck this Bill or add strength to it.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause to insert the words
"Subject in the case of a proceeding instituted before the seventeenth day of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, to such order as to costs as a Court or a Judge thereof may think fit to make."
I think this Amendment is not an unreasonable one, and I propose to ask the Committee to accept it.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, after the words last inserted, to add the words
The Committee will probably appreciate, on looking at the Amendments of the Paper, that this Amendment does very nearly what is proposed by the Clause which stands on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) and three other hon. Members. It does not, however, follow exactly the provisions of that Clause, because, first of all, that Clause is limited to direct loss or damage. The expression "direct loss or damage" is an expression which has received somewhat limited interpreta- tion in some of the courts, and we did not think that, if we had the word "direct" in, it would quite fully carry out the intention expressed by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal yesterday. Therefore, we omit that word, and merely say "any loss or damage." The second matter with respect to which the Amendment that we propose differs from the Clause on the Paper is that that Clause proposes a tribunal of two Judges, whose decision should be final. We propose a tribunal of three persons, one at least of whom is to be a person who is or has been a holder of high judicial office. The reason why we take three persons instead of two is that, as the Committee will understand, if you provide for a tribunal whose decision is to be final, and then appoint two persons, who may differ, you arrive at a rather difficult position, because you do not know then what decision the tribunal could possibly give. We have three persons in order to avoid that danger. The other alteration, namely, having one only who is necessarily a holder or ex-holder of high judicial office, is mainly by reason of the fact that there are not two Judges of the High Court who can be spared from their judicial work to devote the time which would be necessary for carrying out these duties. It would involve a strengthening of the Judicial Bench, and consequent additional expense, which we do not think would be desirable.
With these slight alterations—I think they are slight alterations—we have substantially followed the same lines as the hon. Member for Penistone, who, obviously, has been thinking out the matter independently, and has arrived at a somewhat similar conclusion. I do not want, at this hour, to take up a great deal of time in moving the Amendment, because I think it carries out the desire which was expressed on both sides of the House in the Second Heading Debate. A good many hon. Members felt, as the Government themselves felt and stated, that, although it was quite right that an indemnity should be given to those who had acted under this deportation Order, it was not right that persons who had been deported in a manner which the Courts had declared to be illegal should not be compensated for the loss or damage which they had sustained, and accordingly we have provided by this means for that event.
There are one or two criticisms which occur to me which I should like to deal with. It may be said, "Why do you not send the cases to a jury?" That is a suggestion that appealed to me very much and which I should have been very much disposed, if it were practicable, to adopt, but the reasons that led the Government and myself to a different conclusion are these. We came to the conclusion, after weighing it up, that in fact the suggestion had three or four very grave objections. First of all, it would be expensive, because everyone who has had experience of special jury actions knows that is the most expensive form of litigation in which you can indulge. Secondly, it would be lengthy, because if you have a jury action the speeches and the proceedings generally take a great deal longer than if you bring it before some other tribunal. Thirdly, it would involve—and this is perhaps an even more serious matter—that you would get totally inconsistent decisions with regard to exactly similar cases. You could not possibly have one jury to try over 100 actions. That would be taking 12 good men and true away from their business for the best part of a judicial year. In practice a jury is not summoned for more than a week, and generally, when there is a series of cases, one jury sits for one day and a different jury the next day. Of course, also, the juries would not all be London juries. There would be cases at Liverpool, Nottingham, Manchester, and a variety of other towns and you would get a number of juries who would take quite different views of the compensation to be given on practically the same facts. I am not saying that in disparagement of trial by jury, which I believe is a very sound and excellent method of arriving at a fair result, but when you have a hundred odd cases which it is essential should, if possible, be assessed on the same principle and, therefore, by the same tribunal, there is an insuperable difficulty if you ask a number of juries all over the country to be assessing damages, and you would be creating a real and well-founded feeling of inequality and injustice in the minds of people who found that on similar facts one jury is giving, perhaps, quite a sub- etantial sum and another almost nothing at all. For these reasons we have thought it better to have one tribunal which shall deal with all the cases.
You are proposing two tribunals, one for England and one for Scotland.
That is true, but that would only involve, at the most, that there were two views, and I do not think it would involve that, because I hope very much that, at any rate, part of the composition of the tribunal, possibly the whole tribunal, may be the same for the two countries. We have only thought it right to provide that the Lord Chief Justice shall appoint for England and the Lord President for Scotland because we thought that country might possibly have more confidence in appointments by the chief judicial officer of its own land. But there is nothing to prevent the Lord President and the Lord Chief Justice agreeing on the tribunal, and a similar provision has been embodied in other cases in which I myself have been concerned, where in fact that course has been adopted. Although the nomination is in two different persons they have united in selecting the same person to fulfil the double role. So I think there is no great difficulty in the hon. Member's point.
Another criticism which is put forward, and again a perfectly fair one, is this: It has been suggested to me that this does not lay down any principle upon which compensation is to be assessed. I am inclined to think that if you put in extra words of definition they are rather apt to be treated as words of limitation rather than of extension. Therefore it is better to leave it in language that is quite familiar in court, "Loss or damage," and to allow the court to apply the ordinary common law principles. Some hon. Members have suggested that they would feel more confidence if it were expressly stated that the principles upon which the assessment was to take place were the principles on which a jury would act at common law in an ordinary common law action for damages for false imprisonment. If an Amendment be moved on those lines, I have the authority of my right hon. Friend for saying that the Government will be prepared to accept it. The only reason why I did not put it in my Amendment is because I doubt whether it would be as much in the interests of the deportees as some hon. Members imagine. If the Committee really ask for it, the Government would be quite willing to accept it.
We have on the Paper an Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) and other hon. Members, which ends with the words
"and such compensation shall be assessed by that tribunal on the same principles as an award would be made in the like case by a judge and jury."
If we add the words "in an action for false imprisonment," would that be right?
Very nearly. The Amendment which was suggested to me by hon. and learned Friends, not all on this side of the Committee, and which I think meets the case, is in these words
"and such compensation shall be assessed on the principle on which damages would be assessed at common law in a common law action for false imprisonment."
I think that would meet what my right hon. and learned Friend asks for, and would probably meet the views of everybody. I have explained the reason why I have not included these words in my Amendment; but if the Committee thinks it would be safer and more desirable to insert them, then, on behalf of the Government, I can say that the Government will accept these words. I hope that, with these words inserted, the Committee will realise that we have entirely safeguarded the position in this sense, that we have secured that anybody who claims compensation shall get compensation in exactly the same way as if they were bringing an action for damages for false imprisonment, and that he should get the full amount of any elements of damage assessable in an action for damages for false imprisonment at common law. That is what the House yesterday felt to be the right thing to provide for. At any rate, that is what the Government suggest as a fair and reasonable course to adopt, and as one which gives the deportees the full rights which at common law they would otherwise have had if this Bill had not been passed.
On a point of Order. May I call attention to a matter which I think has escaped notice. Certain words were deleted from the Clause, and the Noble Lord undertook to move that certain words were to be moved at the end, and that has not been done.
I do not think that the proviso in the form suggested by my Noble Friend would quite fit in at the end of the Clause or make sense with the rest of the Bill. I propose, therefore, to make a slight alteration in the way in which the proviso shall be moved, which will make sense of it, and have exactly the same effect, and which, I think, I shall be able to do more effectively on the Report stage. The undertaking, having been given, will be fulfilled, but I hope to satisfy hon. Members, when the time comes, that this can be done more conveniently on the Report stage.
Everybody will be glad of the explanation which the Attorney-General has given. It makes, of course, an enormous difference to the Bill that we should have these words inserted. What the Government now propose is much more satisfactory to those who thought it their duty to oppose this Bill than some of the suggestions which have been made at various stages of the Bill. So far as I can judge, not only is it intended to, but it does satisfy fully this particular part of the demand which was made from different sections of the Opposition—
And from this side also.
Certainly. I should not have drawn the distinction. It satisfies this part of the demand of those who thought the Bill unsatisfactory in its original form, but if the Attorney-General's words are to be inserted, there should be such language as he says he would be willing to accept which would make plain, to begin with, what was the character of the compensation. I think so for this reason. The Attorney-General's words say that you may claim compensation. "Compensation" is not a word which has a definite meaning in the sense in which "damages at law" have a definite meaning. Compensation in connection with the purchase of land means one thing; to other connections it means other things. If you leave it without such a description or definition I cannot help thinking that the high judicial person and his colleagues might well complain, because they are left with no indication by Parliament as to the way in which they were to provide this compensation. If you say that the compensation is to be such as a judge and jury would give in certain well understood circumstances everybody understands what is meant. For that reason, whether it means more or less money, I should have thought it much better to put in words such as the Attorney-General says he is willing to put in. May I point out if that is to be done the Question to be put from the Chair should be not the whole proviso, but only up to that part of it where these words should come in.
Yes, I would have to put it in that way.
I do not ask leave to move it myself—
I gave notice of an Amendment—
But I must point out that if it is moved now, it will prevent other Amendments on the Paper to an earlier part being moved.
May I submit a point of procedure, as to whether according to the usual practice of this House the proviso which is now being moved by the Attorney-General should not come in as a new Clause? It deals with a different subject-matter and there is too a sub-Section which is really entirely concerned with the proviso—a most unusual thing in a new Clause. I submit that such a change should only be made by a new Clause.
There are certain Amendments to the first few lines which should be moved now or else they will be cut out by the Amendment to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir J. Simon) has referred.
May I submit, for the purposes of expedition that, if you put the Question and call the first Amendment, any hon. Member who wishes to put any general considerations forward should do so on the proviso as a whole and then the Amendments could be dealt with individually.
I want to ask the Lord Privy Seal whether under this Clause the deportees who have been charged will be in the same position as those who were not charged at aid, or will the Government claim to come in and and give evidence to show that they ought not to get compensation? I would like to get an answer to that question. I know it is rather late but I have put it twice to-night and on each occasion I got a different answer. As the proviso is now before us, surely we ought to be told what really is in the mind of the Government on this point.
I would point out that we can have a full discussion of the whole Clause now, but we cannot have it again on each Amendment. I will either put the Question That the words of the Amendment down to the word "Ireland" stand part of the Question, which is where the first Amendment occurs, and we can have a full discussion now, or we can discuss the first Amendment.
I do not want to discuss the full Clause, but to get an answer to my question. I want to know whether the persons who are prosecuted are going to be in a less favourable position than those who are not being prosecuted? As I understand it, if it were not for this Bill they would stand on an equality with those who luckily are escaping prosecution now.
I quite agree with what has been said as to the. importance of defining the question of compensation, but I am also concerned with the question of the composition of the tribunal. I think the suggestion of the Government is quite right and proper that the chairman of this tribunal should be a person who holds, or has held, high judicial office. But I am very anxious to get the assurance of the Attorney-General that, at any rate, the other two gentlemen who will compose this tribunal will not of necessity be connected with the law or hold judicial office at all. I am anxious that, as far as possible, this tribunal, at any rate, should have some elements of the jury about it. It is with some hesitation that I personally support this provision, because I should have liked to see these cases go before a British jury. I do not think they would have given undue sums in these cases, and probably the people who are aggrieved will get higher sums in connection with this tribunal. I do want some assurance from the Attorney-General that the other members who will compose the tribunal will represent the ordinary man in the street and bring a common-sense point of view to bear on the questions before them.
I hope the Attorney-General will be able to assist us in this matter, because there really is some fear in regard to it. I am sure he is most anxious that this tribunal should be absolutely unbiased in this matter. There is just this fear in the minds of some hon. Members, that persons who have already sat as members of the tribunal and have, necessarily, had their minds directed to the question of whether or not the persons have been in any way associated with persons or affairs which render it undesirable that they should be released—which would be quite relevant to that inquiry but which would be entirely irrelevant or might be so to this inquiry—should serve on the latter. I hope the Attorney-General will see his way to give a direction that members of that tribunal shall not be members of this The personnel of the tribunal does not enter into it. No one would dream of suggesting that—[HON. MEMBERS: "We cannot hear a word!"]—but it would certainly relieve a very great sense of anxiety on the part of some Members if there were some assurance that the tribunal which has considered it from one point of view should not be the tribunal to consider it from a different point of view.
I must repeat that we cannot have this decision two or three times over. I think it will probably be best if I put the Question down to where the first Amendment commences. Then a full discussion can take place on those words standing part of the Amendment.
Question proposed, "That the proposed words to the word 'since' ['since the sixth day of December'] stand part of the Question."
I asked certain questions yesterday and the Lord Privy Seal answered them in part only. I wish now to repeat the questions in order to get a more complete reply. Will the special tribunal have power to assess compensation for damages, in the first instance in respect of loss of remuneration or wages; and, in the second place, will compensation or damages be paid in respect of expenses incurred by the deportee during his absence from home? Thirdly, will any compensation or damages be paid in respect of injury to character in this connection? I put these questions plainly, because I should imagine that the Government will submit some terms of reference to members of the tribunal before they sit.
I also wish to put some questions to the Government. The first relates to the scope of the tribunal. Will the tribunal have any power to inquire into the reason why these persons were arrested, or will the tribunal be confined purely to the question of compensation for loss of work, or trade, or business or prestige? The second question affecte the very poor people who are concerned. It is stated in the Amendment that the tribunal
"shall have power to award and assess such sums, by way of costs, as they in their discretion may think fit."
That is not sufficient. Take the case of one of the men involved, whom I know. If his case is tried a considerable distance from Glasgow, he has not the money to travel there. His wife and family have been living on the parish for the last nine weeks, and the man has not the funds either to travel any distance or to maintain himself if he got there. Further, in the event of that man getting employment he cannot afford to lose time from his work. In the cases of men whose poverty is such as I have described, will the Government advance sums to enable them to take their places in the Court and to argue their claims? Another point relates to the composition of the tribunal. I differ from the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood), and I ask whether it would not be possible for the Lord Chief Justice of England and the President of the Court of Session in Scotland to appoint a Committee of this House to inquire into the matter, those so appointed to be the tribunal?
I desire to put to the Noble Lord in charge of the Bill a point in relation to this matter, which affects certain members of my own calling concerned in the deportations, in whose cases it will be difficult to assess compensation.
I allude to certain school teachers who have been deported under these Orders and who are entitled to make contributions under the Teachers'. Superannuation Scheme and to have their services recorded. Some of these have been absent for seven or eight weeks from their work and when they come to have their services assessed for superannuation purposes, they may fall short by just that period of a complete year. It seems to me that is a matter which the tribunal could not assess, but it might be put right if the Treasury issued a Regulation that internment under these Orders should be regarded as qualifying service for the purposes of superannuation. I think that might meet the point, but I doubt if it could be properly dealt with in any other way.
Who is going to provide the money to pay the compensation? Is it to be paid by the Government out of State funds? I ask for a direct answer, "Yes" or "No," to that question. If this compensation has to be paid out of money provided by Parliament, then. I submit, as a point of Order, that a provision of this kind requires to be italicised in the Bill until the House in Committee has passed a Resolution authorising same. It seems to me, if this money has to be provided by Parliament, we cannot go on until we have been authorised to do so by a Money Committee of the House.
If that were the case—that the money has to be provided by Parliament—a Financial Resolution would be necessary. But no Financial Resolution was found necessary, therefore I take it the money is not being provided by Parliament.
On a point of Order. May I submit that no Financial Resolution is necessary; that as the law at present stands there is a contingent charge in reference to this matter, in respect of the Government's liability to the deportees, and we are merely substituting another tribunal for assessing that contingent liability.
The question which has to be decided by this tribunal will be a question of assessment. Whatever money is provided for compensation would come before the House in the form of a Supplementary Estimate.
Do we understand that it is possible to circumvent the Rule of the House and to introduce a Bill which imposes a charge, merely by proposing to set up a Committee to decide how much money is to devoted to a particular purpose? If this is a bond fide proposal, this Bill imposes a charge on the public, and if the Bill provides for the payment of money out of public funds, then it is subject like all other Bills of that nature to a Money Resolution.
Might it not well be that the tribunal would decide that no compensation at all is necessary, and in that case where is the necessity for a Money Resolution?
I want to know, since it has been admitted, by the action of the highest legal authorities of the land, that these people were wrongfully deported, why it is that they should be put to the further inconvenience of being asked to provide the money to bring in a case. Is the sense of British justice such that, since it is admitted we have done wrong, we should add insult to that wrong by asking them to find the money to bring an action? Cannot you put your boasted sense of British justice into this Clause, so that the fact of a man or woman having been deported shall establish the right to come into court?
On a point of Order. I wish to ask whether, in your opinion, once the tribunal is set up, that you say is only to assess the amount of compensation that is to be paid, it will be necessary for the Government to introduce a Supplementary Estimate, and are these people to be considered to remain out of the money that they have been assessed until such time as it pleases the Government to bring in and pass a Supplementary Estimate?
That does not appear to me to be a question for me to answer.
I think you have already ruled that there is no necessity for having these words italicised, that this is merely an assessment—[HON. MEMBERS: Speak up, we cannot hear you."] If you keep quiet you will hear me. They are selling earphones at £1 each. May I ask if, the amount of compensation having been assessed by this tribunal, the people who have the claims awarded them and the sum they have to receive stated to them have to wait until the Government think it necessary or advisable to bring in a Supplementary Estimate before they can get their money?
I gave a ruling that no Financial Resolution was necessary upon which this Bill was to be founded, for the reason that the tribunal to be set up was merely to assess the compensation to be paid to those who are asking for it. The question as to how long the people to whom compensation was to be given should wait for their money is not a question for me to answer.
May I submit, with respect, that there are two other considerations which have to be taken into account? First of all, if this tribunal is to be set up, that of itself involves an expense. It is impossible for the tribunal even to hold its first meeting without expense. That is the first point. The second point is this, that the tribunal is certainly instructed to assess the compensation, but later on, in the words moved by the Attorney-General, it states that:
"the tribunal shall have power to award and assess such sums by way of costs as they in their discretion may think fit."
Quite obviously, both of those points, apart from the assessment of compensation, involve Parliamentary responsibility for payment and, therefore, a Money Resolution.
In regard to the first issue raised by the hon. Gentleman, there is no suggestion in the Bill that any money should be paid by this tribunal, and there is no cost involved in the setting up of this tribunal. In regard to the next point, the function of this tribunal is to assess the compensation to be paid to these people.
The hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) asked a. question as to whether or not anybody who had been prosecuted was thereby to be placed in a less favourable position than any one who has not been prosecuted. If by that he means whether the fact of a person being prosecuted should prevent him applying to the tribunal, the answer is "certainly not." If he means by that whether the fact that a person is found guilty of an offence is a. relevant fact for the tribunal to take into account in assessing compensation, the answer is, "Certainly, as far as I know, it would be a relevant factor. We are endeavouring to give effect to the principles of the common law in actions for damages for unlawful imprisonment. Anything that would be relevant for a jury assessing compensation would be equally relevant for a tribunal to take into account in assessing compensation. That also answers the question put by the hon. Member for the Gorbals division of Glasgow as to what would be given by way of damages for injury to character. Obviously, in my view, the fact that a man was of good character would be a relevant fact in assessing compensation, just as the fact that a man was of bad character would also be relevant. These are facts which any jury would be directed by a Judge to take into account in assessing compensation, and they will be taken into account by this tribunal. Several hon. Members asked me questions in regard to the composition of the tribunal.
The hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) asked me to assure the Committee, first of all, that the other two members of the tribunal are not of neceesity to be lawyers. That assurance I certainly can give. He also asked me whether of necessity they would not be lawyers. That I cannot assure him of. The hon. Member for Wallsend (Mr. Hastings) asked me if I could assure the Committee that no member of the Advisory Committee should be qualified to sit on the Commission, and I think there were one or two other Members who asked what the composition of the tribunal would be. I say deliberately that the Government have put it out of their power by this Amendment to say anything as to what the composition of the tribunal shall be, except, of course, that one must be a person who has held judicial office. We do not want—I do not think it would be right—that we should have the power in any way to indicate to the Lord Chief Justice or to the Lord President who we think should be selected. We are selecting the judicial authorities in the two countries with the deliberate intention that there should not be any- thing to be urged against their impartiality or competence, or that there should be any suggestion that we are not giving them unfettered discretion as to the three persons who are to be appointed. The Committee will realise, I think, that that is a bigger safeguard for the proper constitution of the tribunal than by the Government in any way limiting and fettering the selection of these persons, or representing in any way who shall be appointed, and how.
I was asked whether instructions will be given to the tribunal as to the method of its procedure in the assessment of compensation. No instructions are to be given to the tribunal, but the principle on which it is going to assess compensation is going to be indicated by the Amendment which is suggested. Within the limit of these words in the Clause, the tribunal will have the same unfettered discretion that a jury would have in awarding damages. That is a far better way than by the giving of instructions. The hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) asked me what would be taken into account in the assessment. Whether the loss of trade would be taken into account. If by that he means that the fact that these people had been guilty of criminal association; if in any particular case that, if proved, would be a relevant fact, it certainly would be
I am not concerned if another Court is proved wrong. How are they going to assess the compensation?
The tribunal will not go into the fact of whether or not the arrest was right or wrong: the only function of the tribunal is to assess the compensation. The tribunal, no doubt, would take into account all relevant facts in assessing the amount of compensation and the character of the person claiming the damages, loss of his good name, and so on.
What I want to understand is this. Supposing the claimant were a wealthy or well-to-do man, would he get higher compensation because possibly his character in a commercial sense stood higher?
I said his character, not his money. The two things are not identical. I hope I have tried to make the thing clear, and that is that the assessment of the damages is to be exactly in accordance with the principle upon which a jury would assess damages for wrongful imprisonment. Any fact relevent in the claim for or the reduction of damages would be taken into account by the tribunal, who would be guided in exactly the same way as a ju'ry instructed by the Judge. I should like to reassure the Committee as to the fears that have been expressed as to unnecessary delay or that this was infringing some rule of the House or creating a dangerous precedent. We are adopting here the method adopted in the Indemnity Act, 1920, which has more than once this evening been referred to us as a model. We accept it as a model, for the same reason that the Chairman has just ruled there will be no infringement of the prerogatives of the House.
How and by whom are the necessary expenses connected with this tribunal to be paid? I assume that they must have a clerk and messenger and offices, and there are sure to be other expenses oonnected with such a tribunal. I want to know out of what fund the expenses of this tribunal will be paid?
I am afraid this is a matter upon which I am not an expert, but I understand that the answer is that it will be borne on the Law Charges Estimate as the Indemnity Act, 1920, provides.
Then I gather that the effect of this Bill will be to impose an additional charge which was not foreseen when the Estimate was made. I can quite understand that the Estimate may be sufficient to cover this additional charge and if not it would be quite simple to bring in a Supplementary Estimate. Are we to understand that the effect of this Bill will not be to place a charge upon the revenues of this country?
Really, I think the hon. Member is asking a question upon which you, Mr. Deputy Chairman, have already given a ruling. My answer is that this tribunal will no more impose a charge on the revenue than the Act of 1920, and as in that case no financial resolution was necessary so in this case no such resolution is required.
If a person has to go from one town to another and he cannot afford fco proceed there and stay while his case is being dealt with, will the State provide him with funds?
There is express provision that the tribunal shall have power to award such sums by way of costs as in their discretion they think fit, but we are not giving these people more costs than if they brought a law action. We are giving the tribunal discretion to award such costs as they think reasonable, and such costs would no doubt include travelling expenses.
I should like to press this point, because the last time I put the question, it was not answered. The tribunal is given power
"to award and assess such sums by way of costs as they in their discretion may think fit."
If anyone has been deported and released because the action taken was legally wrong, and if he is not in a position even to borrow money to raise the action, is he to be denied the right of appeal and the right to an award because of his poverty? Is that the sense of British justice?
The answer, as I think the hon. Member will see if he reflects for a moment, must be, in the negative, and for this reason. If you went by action, it is quite true that you would have to raise a sum of money in order to raise the action, as they say in Scotland, or for the issue of the writ as we say here. You have to pay about £2 on the writ. In this case, however, no writ has to be issued, and we avoid all that expense. All that has to be done is to send in the claim in writing, which would cost three-halfpence.
There also arises out of the poverty of such a man his inability to make a clear and concise statement of his claim. That means legal expenses, and everything is working into the hands of the lawyers. I want to ask whether any provision will be made, in such circumstances, that the deportee shall have the right, free of charge, to come into court and put his case?
I put a question to the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, which was not answered, with regard to certain people under the Superannuation Acts who had suffered. I asked whether a Treasury Regulation could be issued to the effect that the time spent under deportation should be regarded as qualifying under those Acts, but the question was not answered.
I am sorry that that question was not answered. I certainly do not think that a Treasury Regulation would be issued to say that anyone who had been deported should count the time he spent under deportation as part of his service; but no doubt, if, in fact, by reason of his deportation, he suffered loss of superannuation, that would be an element which would be brought into account in assessing his damages.
I should like to press the question raised by the hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) as to what facilities are going to be given to claimants in lodging their claims. It is perfectly true that a three-halfpenny stamp would convey information, provided that the information can be put down intelligibly and in such a form as to carry weight, but even if it is a question of employing a lawyer for the purpose that is not a stumbling-block, because a lawyer, if he thinks there is a good claim for compensation, will be prepared to take it up and abide by the decision and await payment himself. What I should like to ask, however, in this connection is, how is the tribunal going to operate? Is it going to sit permanently in London, or is it to be a travelling commission? If it is going to be a travelling commission, that gets over the difficulty. I notice that the noble Lord smiled. It is nothing to him, but it is a great deal to some of those who have been deported. If the tribunal is going to sit in London, there may be no cross-examination of the person himself who is making the claim; it must be done at a long distance through lawyers, running up expenses. If, however, it is going to move into the various centres from which deportations have taken place, it solves the difficulty. I think we are entitled to get a reasonable answer to the question as to what facilities are going to be given to these people.
I am sorry if my answers have not seemed reasonable. That has not been my intention. I will try and answer the point which, I understand, is put to me. It is said that some of the deportees did not come from London, and that, therefore, if the tribunal always sat in London, that would cause hardship. I agree that it would, and for that reason no limitation is put on the places to which the tribunal may go. As the hon. Member, no doubt, knows, the tribunal appointed in identical language in the Act of 1920 does, in fact, go from place to place as it thinks necessary, and does sit in various places. There is nothing to prevent the tribunal from sitting wherever it finds it most convenient to sit in the interests of trying the cases. I should like to tell the House, as so much apprehension has been expressed opposite, that I was notified by the Home Office last week that out of 110 deportees 106 have already instructed solicitors.
Question, "That the proposed words, to the word 'since' ['since the sixth day of December'] stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out the words "since the sixth day of December, nineteen hundred and twenty-two."
I find it very difficult. We are now dealing with a manuscript Amendment of very considerable length. I am unaware of Amendments which are to be moved to it and hon. Members are unaware of Amendments which I have down. If there be one thing above everything else that is certain it is that we are laying the foundation of a fine lawsuit which will be solved in the House of Lords. The Amendment I am moving is intended to obtain information, if that be possible. As I understand it, and as I believe hon. Members understand it, this Bill was given rise to by reason and certain illegal proceedings which took place on 11th March this year, and yet it is proposed by this proviso to deal with all cases from 6th December, 1922, to any indefinite date which may arise hereafter. I do not understand why the date 6th December, 1922, has been selected. I should assume there are in the minds of Members of the Government some cases other than those of 11th March, 1922. I should certainly like to have some reasonable explanations why 6th December has been chosen and, failing that, that the date should be left out so that every deportee may have an opportunity of coming before this tribunal irrespective of the date of the offence.
The date is the date of the passing of the Irish Free State Act. The reason we have put it in is that the Court of Appeal in Brady's case held that any deportations under these Regulations were legal. The Court of Appeal in the O'Brien case held that they were illegal by reason of the fact that the constitution of the Irish Free State on 6th December, 1922, stopped the right of deporting and therefore if we left the words out it 'would involve that the Committee would be providing for compensating people who have been lawfully deported in 1920 or 1921, whereas what we intend to do is to compensate people who have been illegally deported since 6th December, 1922. In fact there are no cases prior to that date but we took 6th December, so that we could cover every possible case and because that was the date at which the Court of Appeal decided that the right to deport came to an end.
If I may accept it that there are no cases prior to 11th March, 1 withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out the words "three" ["three months"], and to insert instead thereof, the word "six."
The object of the Amendment is to extend the time during which it will be legal for the deportees to make their claim. Some of these men are in gaol, and a number are being tried. We do not know how long the proceedings will last, nor do we know what the result will be. In order to make certain that every deportee, whether he is being tried in a criminal court or not, shall have a chance of bringing his case before the Tribunal, I propose that the time allowed should be extended from three months to six months.
I do not think that this Amendment has been seriously put when one remembers that the period of three months which I have put in my Amendment is taken from the Amendment down in the names of four hon. Members on the other side, one of whom is the Member for Oxford City (Mr. F. Gray). It is obvious that anybody who has been deported will have ample time to make a claim within three months after the passing of the Act, especially when 107 out of the 110 have already commenced proceedings.
I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the word "compensation" ["compensation for any loss"] to insert the words "against the Crown."
I think the Attorney-General will agree, on reflection, that the Clause as it stands is very curious. It says that a number of individuals may claim compensation, but it does not give the slightest indication against whom they are to claim. They may be going to claim against the Home Secretary or against the Attorney-General. It is obviously the intention that the claim is to be against the Crown, and I suggest that unless we put in the Bill against whom the claim is to be made some very unpleasant comment may be made hereafter by judicial persons who do not always realise the difficulties under which Acts of Parliament are drawn, and who will say that it is very absurd for the House of Commons to say that somebody may claim compensation, without giving any indication as to whom it is against whom the claim is to be made.
I do not think that my right hon. and learned Friend, on reflection, will think it is necessary to insert these words. It might be undesirable because, as he knows very well, the proper procedure against the Crown is by petition of right, and we do not want to infringe that well-established rule. Of course, whoever is made respondent—we do not mind who is made respondent—the proceedings will be defended by the Treasury Solicitor. It is not necessary that the claim must be a claim against the Crown. Never mind against whom the claim is to be made. It does not make any material difference who is made nominally responsible, whether a police officer, the Home Secretary, or a Department of the State, so long as it is understood, as it is understood, that the Treasury Solicitor will defend.
In the Act of 1920, which we may take as the model, have we not the words "compensation out of public funds"? Would not that meet the case?
What is the meaning of the words "claim compensation"? You must claim compensation against someone. There must be some words to indicate against whom the compensation is being claimed.
May I again point out that that model of Parliamentary draftsmanship, the Indemnity Act, 1920, provides that a person in certain circumstances shall be entitled to the payment of compensation, but it does not say from whom. The point of the proviso is to appoint a tribunal to assess amounts. It is not to give judgment. It is to assess amounts. It does not in the least mind who is made nominally responsible. For that reason the 1920 Act is merely provision for compensation. I submit that it is not necessary to take up time discussing this matter further.
I do not desire to take up time, but I do feel that we are left in an uncertain position, if we pass an Act of Parliament which solemnly asserts, as our deliberate conclusion, that certain individuals are entitled to claim compensation without giving the slightest indication as to the source from which it is contemplated that the compensation shall be paid. I should have thought that some indication should be given as to the source from which they are to get the compensation. In reference to what the hon. and learned Member for Swindon (Mr. Banks) said just now, it is true, I take it from the Attorney-General, that in the Indemnity Act, 1920, you will not find that provision. But I remember well —I had a certain responsibility for it at the time—that when we originally drew the Order under which the Defence of the Realm Commission acted, there was the plainest indication that it was out of public funds that the money was to come. It was not as if we were stating for the first time the right of somebody to claim compensation. Under the Defence of the Realm Act such claims began very early in the war. I feel sure that Mr. Duke, as he then was, arranged a provision that the money was to come out of the public funds. On this subject I appeal to the good sense of hon. Members who do not wish, I am sure, to pass legislation which will only lead to unnecessary litigation. Surely if you lay down that somebody is entitled to claim compensation the least you can do is to indicate against what funds he is entitled to make that claim. If you do not do this how is the person to make his claim effective? To whom must he address it? It is quite an elementary principle to state that anybody who is given a right to claim must be shown whether he can claim against public funds or in some other way.
I rather sympathise with the Attorney-General and the noble Lord in charge of this Bill because they are left in a very difficult position. The Bill provides that these people may claim compensation and the Act of 1920 provides that they are entitled to have it, but this measure does not say against whom they are to make there claims. I am rather surprised that the right hon. gallant the Member of Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) should state that a claim of this kind should be made against the Crown, because that is an unconstitutional suggestion. We cannot make claims against the Crown but we can make them against servants of the Crown or bring a petition of right. The difficulty is that if the Government accede to these requests to stipulate that the claims for compensation are to be paid out of public funds it will be necessary to withdraw this Bill and pass a financial Resolution. I can see no other solution of the difficulty in which the Government once more find themselves. We cannot insert a provision to make claims against the King and if we did undoubtedly another place would treat such a proposal as it deserves to be treated. I hope that the Government even at this late hour will decide to withdraw this miserable bantling.
I think the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, before making the speech which he has just delivered, ought to have studied the history of his own party, because when the Liberal party made provision for the payment of Members they did not bring in a Bill, but introduced a Supplementary Estimate. There is nothing to prevent the Government doing the same thing in regard to this Bill for they would only be following the bad example set by the Liberal party.
There is nothing whatever in the right hon. Gentleman's point. Everybody knows that an Estimate embodied in the Appropriation Bill is a Statute authorising payment. This Bill professes to give a statutory right to the victims of the incompetence of the Government and informs them that they have a claim on funds which are unspecified. Perhaps later on we shall have an estimate, but all this is a complete breach of the promise which was given on this subject.
It is rather a practical difficulty for the people who have to make these claims. Cannot the Attorney-General nominate some person who shall stand as the person to whom claims should be made? Consider what has taken place. A man is arrested by a constable and has a claim against him. He is not quite sure who has given the orders, but he thinks they come from the Home Secretary and he has a claim against him. He is then handed over to someone in Ireland, and he probably has a claim against the people who kept him in custody on board ship and also against those who took charge of him in Mountjoy Prison by the orders of the Home Secretary, or certainly through the action of the Home Secretary. He has to make up his mind as to the person against whom he is to bring his claim. Cannot the Attorney-General say that all claims shall be made to the Treasury Solicitor and then brought before this tribunal? It is awkward to say that people are entitled to make a claim and not to say against whom it is to be made.
The recollection of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Northampton (Mr. McCurdy) is perfectly right. I have here the "Manual of Emergency Legislation," which contains the terms of the Duke Commission and provide from what source the compensation is to come. It says:
"Whereas, We have deemed it expedient that a Commission should forthwith issue to inquire and determine, and to report what sums (in cases not otherwise provided for) ought in reason and fairness to be paid out of public funds to applicants‥‥"
That is the thing which was then taken up in the Indemnity Act, and made the subject of slightly different procedure.
I do not think the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) wishes to mislead the Committee, but I think the quotation he has just read is a little misleading. Under the Duke Commission there was no legal right at all. What was provided was that ex gratia payment might be made, and the Duke Commission was set up to consider how much in reason and fairness could be paid out of public funds, ex gratia .
Is there any legal right?
I think so, yes. The Committee will remember the subsequent history. In 1920 it was decided to alter that position, and instead of making an assessment of an ex gratia payment out of public funds it was decided to give a right to claim compensation in respect of loss or damage by reason of interference with property and business and other matters; and in the 1920 Act, which, for the first time, gave a right to claim compensation as opposed to an absence of right to anything but an ex gratia payment, there are the words:
There is no need to put in words which would provide that a claim shall be made against the Crown or against the Treasury Solicitor. To do that would be to embarrass rather than assist a claimant, because at present it does not in the least matter whether he names the police constable who has been referred to, or the Home Secretary, whom he probably will name in most instances, or anyone else whom he thinks convenient, for, whichever he names, as long as he sends in his claim to the tribunal, the tribunal will proceed to assess it, and the tribunal will not be able to defeat the claim by saying that it was against the Home Secretary and it ought to have been against the Treasury Solicitor, or that it was against the Treasury Solicitor and ought to have been against the police constable. We leave it open to the claimant to name any person who, he thinks, is responsible, or to name no one. In every case, as soon as the claim is sent in, the tribunal will take notice of it, will give the necessary directions to bring it on, and the Treasury Solicitor will appear to resist the claim or to discuss the amount to be awarded, and matters will proceed as they have proceeded for the past two and a half years without any difficulty. This is an Amendment which does not serve any useful purpose, and it is taking up a good deal of unnecessary time.
The Attorney-General has raisjed a new and very serious matter by stating that these people have a legal claim. I confess frankly that I understood his case to be that they had no legal claim and that this was ex gratia
payment. [HON. MEMBERS: "No"]. If, in fact, they have the same right as a person who has claimed for false imprisonment and there is no person specified limiting the claim, I presume that anyone advising such a person would say "You may first of all take your proceedings and iseue your writ as if it were an action against the Home Secretary. There is nothing whatever in that to prevent you from then issuing a writ against every person who carried out instructions, including the officer of the ship and the person who kept you in prison." If it is intended that these people shall have a legal right and that there shall be no restrictions as to whom they can claim against, there is nothing to prevent their making a claim by the issue of a writ against every person responsible. If the Government mean that, it is only right that the people concerned should know.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 126; Noes, 225.
Division No. 163.] AYES. [12 m. Adams, D. Hardie, George D. Paling, W. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Harney, E. A. Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Adamson. W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Harris, Percy A. Potts, John S. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hastings, Patrick Pringle, W. M. R. Ammon, Charles George Hayday, Arthur Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Barnes, A. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Ritson, J. Batey, Joseph Herriotts, J. Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hinds, John Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Berkeley, Captain Reginald Hirst, G. H. Royce, William Stapleton Bonwick, A. Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) Saklatvala, S. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) Salter, Dr. A. Broad, F. A. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Shakespeare, G. H. Brotherton, J. John, William (Rhondda, West) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Buchanan, G. Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Buckle, J. Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Simpson, J. Hope Burgess, S. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Sitch, Charles H. Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Smith, T. (Pontefract) Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Snell, Harry Chapple, W. A. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Charleton, H. C. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Stephen, Campbell Collins, Pat (Walsall) Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartiepools) Sturrock, J. Leng Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lansbury, George Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Darbishire, C. W. Lawson, John James Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Leach, W. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lee, F. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Duncan, C. Linfield, F. C. Thornton, M. Dunnico, H. Lunn, William Wallhead, Richard C. Ede, James Chuter M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Edge, Captain Sir William MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) M'Entee, V. L. Webb, Sidney Falconer, J. McLaren, Andrew Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Foot, Isaac Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Wheatley, J. George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Middleton, G. Whiteley, W. Gosling, Harry Millar, J. D. Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Morel, E. D. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Morris, Harold Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Mosley, Oswald Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Muir, John W. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Groves, T. Murnin, H. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Grundy, T. W. Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Guthrie, Thomas Maule Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) O'Grady, Captain James TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Oliver, George Harold Sir Arthur Marshall and Mr. Vivian Phillipps.
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Fawkes, Major F. H. Murchison, C. K. Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Flanagan, W. H. Nail, Major Joseph Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Forestier-Walker, L. Nesbitt, Robert C. Apsley, Lord Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter, Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Furness, G. J. Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Galbraith, J. F. W. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Garland, C. S. Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Gates, Percy Oman, Sir Charles William C. Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Banks, Mitchell Goff, Sir R. Park Parker, Owen (Kettering) Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Pease, William Edwin Barnett, Major Richard W. Gretton, Colonel John Pennefather, De Fonblanque Barnston, Major Harry Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Penny, Frederick George Becker, Harry Gwynne, Rupert S. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Peto, Basil E. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Hall, Lieut. Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Halstead, Major D. Privett, F. J. Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Hamilton, Sir George C. (Atrhncham) Raine, W. Barry, Sir George Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Rankin, Captain James Stuart Betterton, Henry B. Harmsworth, Hon. E. C (Kent) Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Harrison, F. C. Rees, Sir Beddoe Blades, Sir George Rowland Harvey, Major S. E. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Blundell, F. N. Hawke, John Anthony Reid, D. D. (County Down) Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Remer, J. R. Brass, Captain W. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Rentoul, G. S. Brassey, Sir Leonard Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Reynolds, W. G. W. Brittain, Sir Harry Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Robertson-Despencer, Major(lsl'gt'nW) Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford) Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Hiley, Sir Ernest Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Bruford, R. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Bruton, Sir James Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Ruggies-Brise, Major E. Buckingham, Sir H. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Russell, Alexander West-(Tynemouth) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Russell, William (Bolton) Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge) Hood, Sir Joseph Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Butcher, Sir John George Hopkins, John W. W. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Button, H. S. Houfton, John Plowright Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Cadogan, Major Edward Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Hudson, Capt. A. Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hughes, Collingwood Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hume, G. H. Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Shepperson, E. W. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hurd, Percy A. Shipwright, Captain D. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Chapman, Sir S. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Skelton, A. N. Churchman, Sir Arthur Jephcott, A. R. Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Clarry, Reginald George Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree) Clayton, G. C. King, Captain Henry Douglas Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Cobb, Sir Cyril Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Stanley, Lord Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Lamb, J. Q. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Cope, Major William Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Greaves-Lord, Walter Tubbs, S. W. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lort-Williams, J. Turton, Edmund Russborough Crooke, J. Smcdley (Deritend) Lougher, L. Wallace, Captain E. Curzon, Captain Viscount Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Lumley, L. R. Waring, Major Walter Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withlngton) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Wells, S. R. Dawson, Sir Philip Maddocks, Henry White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Doyle, N. Grattan Margesson, H. D. R. Winterton, Earl Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Wise, Frederick Edmondson, Major A. J. Mercer, Colonel H. Wolmer, Viscount Ednam, Viscount Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Ellis, R. G. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Molloy, Major L. G. S. Yerburgh, R. D. T. Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Molson, Major John Elsdale Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Falcon, Captain Michael Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godiray Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)
I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
I think it must be apparent to everybody who has been in the Committee— I regret that I personally have been unable to be in for the whole of the Debate, but for the last two hours, of which I can speak from my own personal experience, it has been apparent—that the position into which this Bill has got is a hopeless state of confusion [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"]—I can speak only for myself, of course. Amendment after Amendment has been made, under conditions which reduced the Committee to silence while the responsible Ministers were making up their minds as to how the Amendment was to be drafted. The Attorney-General, during a very recent debate, said that the Amendment as then drafted made nonsense of the Bill—that his own Amendment, not his personal Amendment but the Government's Amendment made nonsense of the Bill and could not be read into it, and he proposed not to carry out the pledge he had given in that way because he saw another way of doing it and the only possible way. They have discovered that this Bill is very much wider in its application than they intended, and in consequence they had to move an Amendment. We have not got this Amendment before us. Moreover, we are just on the verge of ending the Committee stage, and I make this motion now because I not only want to draw the attention of the Committee to the state of the Bill, but I want at this stage to get a declaration from the Government as to what they propose to do. Do they really mean now to ask this Committee to dissolve itself in a short time when the learned Attorney-General brings in the Amendment which he has promised to bring in, and various other Amendments which are still to be brought in? Does the Government mean to dissolve the Committee and make the Committee sit as the whole House to proceed with the Report Stage of the Bill? [HON MEMBERS: "Why not?"] Because this House has its responsibili ties. Does any responsible Member mean to say that the House is to help the Government to get an important Bill like this, which has been knocked outside in during Committee stage, amended again and again, when all sorts of points have been raised that the Government showed it never anticipated, and which it is not quite sure about now—does any hon. Member say he can vote for this Bill being thrust at once through the Committee stage in which there has been so much confusion and tell us to pass it through without having the words of the Bill before us and send it upstairs to another place?
There is another reason for my Motion. As the Committee knows, no new Clause can be moved on the Report stage unless it is on the Paper. I can understand that if the Bill had gone through without amendment, as the Government anticipated, it would have been a somewhat tall order even under those circumstances, but it would be a tolerable draft upon our goodwill; but when the Bill has had to be amended and an addition made to it, when it has been knocked about as it has been, it is impossible for this House to say it is to allow this Bill to go through its Report stage without any new Clause whatever. Moreover, with regard to the Amendments we have handed in in manuscript, we do not know what the Bill is that we are asked to amend. The Government themselves do not know what the Bill is. When the Bill is printed, as amended, it will be found, at any rate in bulk, to be more than twice the length it is now. It is a Bill to give indemnity to officers, and a Bill that in addition to that gives a claim—I do not really know whether it is a legal claim—I cannot say, and I doubt whether the Attorney-General knows whether it is a statutory claim or a claim of grace, or what it is—so we will leave the claim undefined, as is left undefined the person against whom compensation can be claimed. There it is, this Indemnity Bill, plus a Bill that gives to an aggrieved person, an injured person, a claim for compensation. That is the sort of Bill which is going to be put through the Committee stage and through the Report stage, when hon. Members, not even the Members of the Government themselves, have the Bill in front of them in such a form that they can calmly and carefully consider the implications of the new Amended Bill! Before we go a line further, I think we ought to have a clear statement of what the Government propost to do, therefore I move to report Progress.
I trust the Committee will not accept this Motion.
The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has made some criticisms against the Government as to certain Amendments in the Bill. As a matter of fact I think two Amendments have been made, and the third is now under discussion. These have been made to a certain extent in answer to criticisms which we on this side did not make, but to make argumentative difficulties. If the Bill had been passed in its original form, I myself believe it would have had neither more or less effect than at present, though no doubt there is something to be said in favour of the Amendments that have been made. We accepted the first Amendment. The second Amendment is one which was not accepted on the ground that I thought it an unnecessary provision. What, then, is the Amendment we are now discussing? It was fully discussed yesterday on the Second Reading, and is one on which almost the whole of the Second Reading Debate turned. It was explained at that time and circulated yesterday, is before us, and is being discussed. That is the Amendment which my right hon. and learned Friend promised to produce which is to restrict imaginary claims, and prevent the Bill being used as an indemnity for future as well as past acts which never was contemplated or intended. That suggestion also was at once agreed to. Apart from this there is little substantial change in the Bill. There is not the slightest difficulty in knowing what the Bill says. With the exception of the Amendment we are now discussing, no substantial change has been made in the effect of the Bill, and I cannot see why, at this stage of the proceedings, the hon. Gentleman should have thought it necessary to move to report progress. The House accepted the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule, and now, only a little after twelve, when we have not even finished the Committee stage, I think the Committee will without hesitation reject this Motion and go on with its business.
I regret very much that the noble Lord has not seen fit to make the statement suggested by the Leader of the Opposition. Obviously the Leader of the Opposition, in moving to report progress, did not suggest that we should break off our proceedings at this time. The object of his Motion was to give the Government an opportunity of indicating its intention of being content with the Committee stage to-night—a very reasonable request, which is entirely in accord- ance with the practice of the House. In former days, indeed, the Report stage of a Bill like this, which had been amended, could not have been taken on the same day, even before eleven o'clock; but now, straining the Standing Orders, the Government mean to take the Report stage of this Bill, which has been considerably amended—amended in very material points, amended, I believe, more than any Bill of the same size has been amended recently in the course of its passage through the. House. It is true that the noble Lord minimises the importance of the Amendments, but they are substantial, and, after all, in dealing with a Bill of this kind, it is important that the House should be fully aware of what the effect of the Amendments exactly is. Questions of interpretation may arise, and we know the difficulties in which the Government have already found themselves in regard to the interpretation of other Statutes which have been passed with similar haste in the former Parliament.
I hope the noble Lord will be warned. It would be, surely, in the interests of the House and in the interests of sound legislation that, this Bill having been amended as the Committee has amended it, we should have the Bill printed, so that, if need be, we should be able, and the Government themselves might be able, to put Amendments on the Paper in order to put these Amendments into proper form. One Amendment which has been accepted makes the Bill, I believe, read in quite a ridiculous way. When that Amendment passed the Committee, I failed, Mr. Hope, to catch your eye, and, therefore, was not able to show exactly how ridiculous it is, but I believe that if he saw it in cold type the noble Lord himself would admit that he had assented to something which, in English, is absolutely ridiculous. I do not know whether I can repeat it exactly, but I think the words "purporting to be made" occur twice over in the same line. When the noble Lord agreed to accept it there was a case to be made for it, because it referred to Regulations generally, but then he accepted an Amendment to leave out "Regulations" and insert "Regulation 14B," and a further Amendment, "Regulation 14B purporting to be made under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act," and I do not think that the noble Lord himself, when he comes to see his own handiwork, would consider it to be a striking triumph of Parliamentary draftsmanship. I do not want to attribute any sinister motives to the noble Lord; that is the last thing I should suggest; but it does occur to me that he may be rather afraid of seeing in type the exact words to which he has assented, and hopes, in the early hours of the morning, to get rid of some of these verbal excrescences.
The course which the Leader of the Opposition has suggested has many advantages, nevertheless, from the Government's point of view. The proviso at present under discussion is one of very great importance, and, although the Government has given us every facility to examine it in the course of the afternoon, by circulating typewritten copies, still, that is hardly an adequate way of considering such important issues. I believe that if the Government were to take the Report and Third Reading on Friday there would be no serious loss, and we should have an opportunity then of amending the Bill, of having it licked thoroughly into shape, and seeing exactly where we are. I am not sure that, if the Government had time to think over it between now and Friday, they would not decide to withdraw the Bill altogether, for the simple reason that, having accepted the proviso now under discussion, it is hardly worth while passing the Bill at all. The situation, as far as indemnity is concerned, is likely to be very much the same as if there were no Bill. The only thing that need worry them is the penalty Clause in the Habeas Corpus Act. If that had been dealt with, they might have allowed all these deportees to go to the Courts, and the Government would probably be in a better position by allowing them to go into court and follow the ordinary form of English law than by adopting this modified form of law, which is alien to our institutions and an undesirable importation from Germany and other countries.
I do not consider that the Amendments made in this Bill are of such a type and character as the Noble Lord would wish us to think. After all, the main Amendment is that introduced by the Government themselves. That comes to this, that while the Bill itself stated that no compensation of any kind or description was to be given to the de- portees, and although the Prime Minister modified that by saying that part compensation should be given, the Amendment itself says that full compensation shall be given. Taking the Bill as it stands, and adding to it the Amendment as it stands, you make the Amendment contradict the effect of the Bill, and reduce it to this: What is the necessity for this Bill at all? If these deportees are to receive full compensation, and if the taxpayer is to pay that compensation, would not the ordinary course of the law bring about the result that this Bill purports to bring about? The ordinary course of the law would enable these persons to name as defendants such persons as had offended in arresting them or otherwise. Those persons, if they had no defence, would have judgment given against them, the Courts of this country would record that judgment, and the Government of this country, according to the ordinary practice, would pay the amount of the judgment given against its servants, incurred in carrying out the duties that they were obliged to carry out under the authority of their superiors.
That would have been the ordinary course of the law. Now we are confronted with the question whether it is wise to pass a Bill of Indemnity that brings about no better result than the ordinary course of the law, but does bring this about that we have—
The hon. Member is discussing the merits of the Bill, whereas the discussion is as to whether we report Progress.
The reason I was led into this discussion was that I understood the Motion of the Leader of the Opposition to be that Progress should be reported because it was inadvisable that such drastic alterations as were made in this Bill should be dealt with at this late hour of the night, and I was endeavouring to point out that the alterations made,were not of a mere verbal kind but affected the whole substance of the Bill. That was really my point. I do not want to go into the merits of the Bill further than to make it clear to the Committee that these are not merely formal or trivial Amendments that have been carried under the stress of the Opposition, but that there is a substantial Amendment which requires the serious consideration of the Committee, because if the Bill is printed as is proposed with the typewritten matter that I have seen added to it, it becomes a ridiculous, undignified document, because the House of Commons is then supposed to have been so blind to the meaning of words and the effect of what was printed as to add on to it the 20 or 30 lines that negative all except one or two of the lines written before. That is the position. After all, when Bills are discussed in this House we may be hilarious at this hour and we may take a great deal of pleasure in the quips and oddities of debate, but the Bill ultimately gets upon the Statute, and all of us should take a pride in this Mother of Parliaments. All of those who, like myself, have been Members of, I will not say subordinate but co-ordinated Parliaments, do not wish to see under the solemn guise of the Statute Book a number of words printed which will lay this House open to the ridicule of counsel when they come to interpret them before judges. It is therefore very important that in a Bill of this kind, where we are doing something highly exceptional and where we have to maintain the prestige of the British Parliament, we should not put ourselves on a level with some of the South American and Central European new and undeveloped Parliaments, where the error of the Minister to-day is exposed by the judge to-morrow and then set right the day after. We have to be jealous of our record, and to say that a Bill of this kind, after the pleasantries to which it has been subjected during the discussion to-day, should be reduced into the stereotyped permanence of print without the sober discussion of the morning is a matter which shocks my sense of the proprieties. For these reasons, having due regard to our own importance and to the high regard in which we are held by all the subordinate Parliaments of our Empire, we would do well to leave the final shape of this Bill—[An HON. MEMBER: "To the undertaker."]—to the cool deliberation which we can give to it when we have seen this long addendum made to what we now have, and shape the Bill quietly and calmly in the quiet hours of the early hours of the early day when we are not so exhilarated.
I want to say a word or two on behalf of the Motion submitted by the Leader of the Opposition. I can quite well understand how he having a high regard for the traditions and eminence of this House, should be shocked by the conditions to which it has been reduced by the proceedings of this evening. I want to impress upon the Government that they are here dealing with a very serious matter—a matter so serious that it should not be imposed in this shaddy manner on a tired and composed House. You are dealing in this Bill with the liberties of a section of His Majesty's subjects, we have ample evidence, in the exodus from the Government Benches, that they are not in a fit state to conduct the business of this House in the manner—
On a point of Order. Is the hon. Member entitled to make an allegation of that kind against members on this side of the Committee?
The inference I drew from what the hon. Member said was that the members of the Opposition were so wearisome.
I claim from the Opposition the charity that has been exhibited by the Government and its supporters in the course of the evening. What I intended to convey was that it is quite evident that the hon. Members who rose from those benches a minute ago and left the Chamber are desirous of finding an escape from the serious consideration of the matter now under discussion. What I want to submit to the Committee is, that it is not in a fit state at this stage to consider the serious considerations involved in this Measure. After all, the embarrassment of a Government, even of this Government, is a very trifling matter compared with the liberties of His Majesty's subjects, and you are here dealing with the liberties of these people. You are dealing with such a serious question that the Committee should be in a fit state to give such attention to its duties as the character of those duties demands. May I submit that in this Measure you are dealing with something that is of almost equal importance. You are discarding the law courts of the country. Why? Because they have not yielded to the dicisions and the wishes of Hie Majesty's Government. It is quite evident that the Government representatives in the law courts of this country cannot be controlled by a Parliamentary majority. There are still in this country people who take a certain amount of pride in the fact that the law courts have not been brought under the same control as the Parliament of the country has been brought. The Government want now that the law courts no longer suit their purpose, to scrap these laws, I admit, in sections. They are not proposing by one measure to abolish the whole legal system of this country, but they are proposing to abolish those laws as far as they have control over the conduct of Members of the Government during recent weeks or months. They want to substitute for the law courts tribunals appointed in quite a different way, tribunals appointed by themselves and over which they will have a certain amount of control.
The hon. Member is discussing the merits of the proposal, rather than adducing reasons why I should report Progress.
The purpose of my argument is this. I want to show that the subject before the Committee is a very serious one—one that strikes fundamentally at the old and valued institutions of this country. When we are discussing such serious proposals as these the House ought to be, first of all, in a physical state to do it. Obviously the Members on the other side are not in that condition. Secondly, when dealing with important questions like these, we ought to have in our hands a printed copy of what it is suggested we are to give legislative effect to. The object of the Motion to report Progress now is to enable the Government to give us these facilities for considering a serious measure to which I think the House is entitled. May I give just one instance of the embarrassed condition in which the Government has drifted. In the earlier stages of the sitting I moved an Amendment, which was accepted by the Government, when that Amendment was accepted, the noble Lord who, I think, is in charge of this Bill promised to add other words. I have a note of the words he intended. He invited us to cross the floor and to give us in writing that which the Government had not time to type, much less print, and he proposed to add the words
"provided that this Section shall not apply to any act done after the passing of this Act."
After giving that promise which was given solemnly in the name of the Government after it had been accepted seriously in this Committee coming as it did form a side that in the past that has been occupied by responsible people who felt some responsibility for the statements that they made, after the Government's leaders had had five minutes in which to consider it, another representative of the Government got up and stated that the insertion of that provision would make the whole Bill ridiculous and therefore they did not intend to proceed to give effect to the promise that had been made seriously and in good faith by the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill. In view of that, it is quite a reasonable request that the Committee should now report progress in order that the Government might consider, not merely the three lines of the Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman promised to have inserted in the Bill, but the remainder of the Bill as it now stands. As has been already pointed out, no one seems to know what it contains. We do not know what we are discussing. The Bill has been hacked, chipped and altered and it may not read fairly decent English. I submit that if five minutes consideration can demonstrate to the Government that the Bill is nonsense, that the Bill would be nonsensical of these few words promised by the right hon. Gentleman were inserted, then a few hours consideration might very well convince even this Government that it was utter nonsense to introduce such a Bill at all. I think there is a very strong claim on these grounds for the Committee to report progress in order that it may recuperate, not merely its physical strength but its intellectual charity and to give expression of that recovery in a Bill, printed and submitted to the House. That would add to the prestige of the House instead of degrading it as we are doing by the proceedings this evening.
rose in his place, and claimed to move , "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 197; Noes, 103.
Division No. 164] AYES. [12.50 a.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Furness, G. J. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Galbraith, J. F. W. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Garland, C. S. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Apsley, Lord Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Parker, Owen (Kettering) Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Goff, Sir R. Park Pease, William Edwin Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Greaves-Lord, Walter Pennefather, De Fonbtanque Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Penny, Frederick George Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Gretton, Colonel John Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Gwynne, Rupert S. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Banks, Mitchell Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Peto, Basil E. Barnett, Major Richard W. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray Barnston, Major Harry Halstead, Major D. Privett, F. J. Becker, Harry Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Raine, W. Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Rankin, Captain James Stuart Bellalrs, Commander Carlyon W. Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Harrison, F. C. Rees, Sir Beddoe Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Harvey, Major S. E. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Berry, Sir George Hawke, John Anthony Reid, D. D. (County Down) Betterton, Henry B. Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Remer, J. R. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Henn, Sir Sydney H. Rentoul, G. S. Blades, Sir George Rowland Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Reynolds, W. G. W. Blundell, F. N. Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Robertson-Despencer.Major(lsl'gt'nW) Brassey, Sir Leonard Hiley, Sir Ernest Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford) Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Roundell, Colonel R. F. Bruford, R. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Bruton, Sir James Hood, Sir Joseph Russell, Alexander West-(Tynemouth) Buckingham, Sir H. Hopkins, John W. W. Russell, William (Bolton) Button, H. S. Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Cadogan, Major Edward Hughes, Collingwood Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Hume, G. H. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Jarrett, G. W. S. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D Chapman, Sir S. Jephcott, A. R. Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Clarry, Reginald George Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Shepperson, E. W. Clayton, G. C. King, Captain Henry Douglas Shipwright, Captain D. Cobb, Sir Cyril Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Lamb, J. Q. Skelton, A. N. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Cope, Major William Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree) Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Lioyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Lioyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Stanley, Lord Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lort-Williams, J. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Lougher, L. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Curzon, Captain Viscount Lumley, L. R. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Tubbs, S. W. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Maddocks, Henry Turton, Edmund Russborough Dawson, Sir Philip Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Wallace, Captain E. Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Margesson, H. D. R. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Doyle, N. Grattan Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Mercer, Colonel H. Wells, S. R. Edmondson, Major A. J. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Ednam, Viscount Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Molloy, Major L. G. S. Winterton, Earl Ellis, R. G. Molson, Major John Elsdale Wise, Frederick England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Wolmer, Viscount Ersklne, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Morris, Harold Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill (High Peak) Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honlton) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Falcon, Captain Michael Murchison, C. K. Yerburgh, R. D. T. Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Nail, Major Joseph Fawkes, Major F. H. Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Flanagan, W. H. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
NOES. Adams, D. Broad, F. A. Collins, Pat (Walsall) Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Brotherton, J. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Buchanan, G. Darbishire, C. W. Barnes, A. Burgess, S. Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Batey, Joseph Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.) Dunnico, H. Berkeley, Captain Reginald Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Ede, James Chuter Bonwick, A. Chapple, W. A. Edge, Captain Sir William Edwards. C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Salter, Dr. A. Evans, Ernest (Cardigan) Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Foot, Isaac Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Lansbury, George Simpson, J. Hope Gosling, Harry Lawson, John Jamss Sitch, Charles H. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Leach, W. Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Linfield, F. C. Stephen, Campbell Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Lunn, William Sturrock, J. Leng Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Groves, T. MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Thome, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Grundy, T. W. M'Entee, V. L. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) McLaren, Andrew Thornton, M. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Wallhead, Richard C. Hardle, George D. Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Harney, E. A. Middleton, G. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Hastings, Patrick Millar, J. D. Webb, Sidney Hayday, Arthur Mosley, Oswald Wheatley, J. Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Muir, John W. Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Murnin, H. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Hirst, G. H. Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) O'Grady, Captain James Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) Pattlnson, S. (Horncastle) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Phillipps, Vivian Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) John, William (Rhondda, West) Potts, John S. Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Pringle, W. M. R. TELLERS FOR THE NOES — Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden. East) Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Mr. Ammon and Mr. Morgan Jones. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Royce, William Stapleton Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Saklatvala, S.
Question put accordingly, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 105; Noes, 196.
Division No. 165.] AYES. [12.58 a.m. Adams, D. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) Murnin, H. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Hardle, George D. Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Harney, E. A. O'Grady, Captain James Barnes, A. Hastings, Patrick Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Batey, Joseph Hayday, Arthur Phillipps, Vivian Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Potts, John S. Berkeley, Captain Reginald Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Pringle, W. M. R. Bonwick, A. Hirst, G. H. Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Broad, F. A. Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) Royce, William Stapleton Brotherton, J. Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) Saklatvala, S. Buchanan, G. Jarrett, G. W. S. Salter, Dr. A. Burgess, S. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) John, William (Rhondda, West) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.) Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Simpson, J. Hope Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Sitch, Charles H. Chapple, W. A. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Collins, Pat (Walsall) Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Stephen, Campbell Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Sturrock, J. Leng Darbishire, C. W. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartiepools) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lansbury, George Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Dunnico, H. Lawson, John James Thornton, M. Ede, James Chuter Leach, W. Wallhead, Richard C. Edge, Captain Sir William Linfield, F. C. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lunn, William Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Evans, Ernest (Cardigan) McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Webb, Sidney Foot, Isaac MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Wheatley, J. George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) M'Entee, V. L. Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Gosling, Harry McLaren, Andrew Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Middleton, G. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Millar, J. D. Ycung, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Groves, T. Morris, Harold Grundy, T. W. Mosley, Oswald TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Muir, John W. Mr. Ammon and Mr. Morgan Jones.
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Bellairs, Commander Cartyon W. Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Balfour, George (Hampstead) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Banks, Mitchell Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Apsley, Lord Barnett, Major Richard W. Berry, Sir George Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Barnston, Major Harry Betterton, Henry B. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Becker, Harry Blrchall, Major J. Dearman Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Blades, Sir George Rowland Blundell, F. N. Harrison, F. C. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Harvey, Major S. E. Peto, Basil E. Brassey, Sir Leonard Hawke, John Anthony Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Privett, F. J. Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Henn, Sir Sydney H. Raine, W. Bruford, R. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Rankin, Captain James Stuart Bruton, Sir James Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Buckingham, Sir H. Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Rees, Sir Beddoe Button, H. S. Hiley, Sir Ernest Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Cadogan, Major Edward Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Remer, J. R. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Rentoul, G. S. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Hood, Sir Joseph Reynolds, W. G. W. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hopkins, John W. W. Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Chapman, Sir S. Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Robertson-Despencer, Major(lsl'gt'nW) Clarry, Reginald George Hughes, Collingwood Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford) Clayton, G. C. Hume, G. H. Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Cobb, Sir Cyril Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Colfox, Major Win. Phillips Jephcott, A. R. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Cope, Major William Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Russell, William (Bolton) Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. King, Captain Henry Douglas Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lamb, J. Q. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Curzon, Captain Viscount Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Davidson, J.C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Saisoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Greaves-Lord, Walter Shepperson, E. W. Dawson, Sir Philip Lort-Williams, J. Shipwright, Captain D. Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Lougher, L. Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Doyle, N. Grattan Lumley, L. R. Skelton, A. N. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Edmondson, Major A. J. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree) Ednam, Viscount Maddocks, Henry Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Stanley, Lord Ellis, R. G. Margesson, H. D. R. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Mercer, Colonel H. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Falcon, Captain Michael Molloy, Major L. G. S. Tubbs, S. W. Fawkes, Major F. H. Molson, Major John Elsdale Turton, Edmund Russborough Flanagan, W. H. Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Wallace, Captain E. Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Furness, G. J. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Galbraith, J. F. W. Murchison, C. K. Wells, S. R. Garland, C. S. Nail, Major Joseph White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Goff, Sir R. Park Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Winterton, Earl Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Wise, Frederick Gretton, Colonel John Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Wolmer, Viscount Gwynne, Rupert S. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill (High Peak) Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Parker, Owen (Kettering) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Halstead, Major D. Pease, William Edwin Yerburgh, R. D. T. Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Penny, Frederick George TELLERS FOR THE NOES — Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.
Amendments to the proposed Amendment handed in in the names of the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) and the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Neil Maclean) dealing with the question of the assessment of costs appear to me to be governed by the concluding sentence of the proposed Amendment handed in by the Government.
On a point of Order, the proposed Amendment standing in my name is after the word "internment" to insert the words" and for costs incurred in substantiating such claims." I would ask if the Government's Amend- ment covers that? This House is entitled to know and we have no copies of the Amendment proposed to be put down by the Government.
The last two lines of the Amendment are these words
"the Tribunal shall have power to award and assess such sums iby way of costs as they in their discretion may think fit."
I now come to the point of the part which is not under discretion, and we think we should have this inserted in the position we wish in the Amendment. I think we are quite in order in bringing the matter up at this particular stage. There is also another point which may bring it within the rules of Order and it is this. The proviso of the Government, in the part to which you have drawn attention, does not cover in its entirety what we wish to bring before the Committee. May we point out that there are certain cases in which individuals have been put to costs which may not be within the purview of the tribunal. There are, for example, the costs of individuals who have instituted proceedings against the Home Secretary, the Attorney-General or someone. The Attorney-General shakes his head but of these people 107 out of 110 have already instructed solicitors to take action. Consequently some of them may have already started proceedings in a civil court. If the assessment is only to be along the lines of this proviso, it would, in all probability, rule out entirely any initial costs that these aggrieved persons have been put to in instituting the civil proceedings which this Bill is ruling out and that is one of the reasons why we wish to insert this Amendment at this particular point.
There is the further point made earlier in the debate by the hon. Member for the Gorbals division (Mr. Buchanan) which the Attorney-General did not fully answer and that was that some of the persons who were deported may be unemployed and if they had to travel, say from Glasgow to Edinburgh, they may find it difficult to pay their costs in order to substantiate their claims. The costs we desire are costs of travelling to appear before the tribunal. We feel that there is substance in the Amendment being put forward and we are certain that the Attorney-General has no desire to rule out anything to which these individuals may be entitled. He may consider that in his proviso these things are already allowed for. We on this side consider that the proviso is not sufficiently clear to make it possible for these individuals to claim the full amount of the costs to which we consider they are entitled, and, knowing what has already happened through the drafting of the powers under which the Attorney-General advised the Home Secretary to act, with the result that the Government are compelled to pass an indemnity bill—
The hon. Member rose to a point of Order. I will allow him to move his Amendment, but he must take it that his speech on his Amendment hae been made. The Amendment of the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) comes first, however.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the word "damage" ["any loss or damage"], to insert the words
"including moral and intellectual damage."
The Government too hastily assume that it is only the financial loss incurred by such people that is the damage inflicted. I would like them to take into account the injury imposed on respectable people against whom no charge can be made in law, but who, under the operation of the Government's unfortunate system of dealing with affairs, are arrested, deported and interned. They suffer a shock which is made greater than any damage caused through loss of employment or wages. That should be taken into account by the tribunal when they come to assess the damages that ought to be paid. After the exhibition that we have had to-night, it cannot be assumed that the intellectual qualities of this country are a monopoly of Members on the other side of the Committee. I would submit that the people who have been deported and interviewed would, if they had the same opportunities, display intellectual gifts that would compare very favourably with those shown by the Members of the Government and their supporters. How would Members on the Treasury Bench like to be arrested by a Government under the Leader of the Opposition because they had conspired against something in the nature of a Free State of Britain? That is something that may reasonably be contemplated, because I am satisfied, from the disposition of Members on the other side of the Committee towards the rising Labour movement, that they would conspire for the overthrow of the Free State of Britain, just as they allege that the deportees have conspired for the overthrow of the Irish Free State. In these circumstances if a Government composed of Members on this side were to act in the despotic and stupid manner which—
The hon. Member must confine himself to the words of his Amendment.
I was trying to ask Members of the Government to contemplate, if possible, what the amount of suffering would be to them if they were treated by a Labour Government in the manner in which they have treated the people of whom we are now dealing. Take the Attorney-General, for instance. I am quite sure that he would estimate the moral loss and the intellectual loss of the degradation that was associated with these arrests, deportations and internments as something very much greater than is proposed. He would estimate even the substantial salary which he now draws form the Government and from the taxpayers in this country. It is because I feel that the intellectual gifts of the people, who have been deported by the Government are equal to the intellectual gifts of the supporters of the Government —and I know these people belong to a highly sensitive race of high moral character who value their reputation— and because all these things have been shattered, that I ask the Government to realise that that is an aspect of the loss that ought to be taken into account when dealing with the compensation to be awarded. Therefore I move the Amendment.
I wish, in supporting this Amendment, to impress upon the Attorney-General this view. It may be asked what is there of monetary loss that cannot be met in the claim to compensation under this head. Well, there is the annoyance to the person and his family that cannot be computed in cash. There is the slur on the man's character and the damage to his reputation. As an illustration, I said yesterday and I think it is correct, that these deportees, almost without exception, were members of the Catholic Church, and to my knowledge the neighbours of some of these people are very suspicious of their character because they have been arrested. There are other societies with which these deportees are connected, and they themselves will probably not desire to come into contact with their fellow members in those societies until their guilt or otherwise is proved. It is assumed that compensation in this country rests almost entirely on claims for workmen's compensation. In cases of workmen's compensation the workmen's wages are assessed and the Court decides as to one-half of the amount. How any Court has ever come to a decision that a man can live on one-half his wages I do not know.
On a point of Order What has moral and intellectual damage to do with workmen's compensation?
Surely the hon. Gentleman in the course of his own duties and profession has brought illustrations to bear on his arguments, and surely a man who is not so well acquainted with placing arguments before a tribunal is entitled to use an illustration of that kind. In any case the hon. Gentleman is not Chairman of this Committee.
I protest against the offensive observations the hon. Member is making.
I think the hon. Member is getting rather wide of this particular Amendment.
A very serious charge is made by the hon. Member. I submit to you, Captain Fitzroy, that you ought to protect Members who are accused of being offensive. I am going to ask the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Hohler) to do the honourable thing, and withdraw.
If I have said anything offensive, I withdraw.
I am glad that the hon. and learned Gentleman has made the apology, and I accept it in full. I think I am entitled to use one or two illustrations in favour of my argument. Let me use this one: I happened to be a Member of this House in the last Parliament and I remember a Bill brought into this House containing a claim for monetary payment in respect of men who had served in the police force in Ireland, not only in respect of the loss of their salaries owing to the rearrangement in the Free State, but the claim was also made that because these men had served the British Empire they were entitled to something more than mere loss of wages and remuneration. That is exactly the claim we make on behalf of these deportees. I can give another illustration. Only recently we sent a very strong ultimatum to Russia.
What was the ultimatum about? It was that the Soviet Government had arrested some of our trawler men. I feel sure that, when the claim is made by the British Government to the Soviet authorities, that claim will include something entirely apart from the question of loss these men have suffered. The claim will be that these men are British citizens and are entitled to something apart from the sheer monetary loss they may have suffered. We claim under this Amendment that an injury has been done to these people, not to the occupation, not only to the loss of remuneration, not merely to 1he loss of wages alone or the loss of their profession, but on moral grounds. The character, personality, and, in fact, the health of these men have been injured, and they are entitled to some payment for that. Some of these men are as good citizens as Members opposite, and their characters will bear comparison with the character of any Member on the other side of the House. I venture to support the Amendment on the grounds that I have named.
I wish to support this Amendment. I would have been glad to have seen the noble Lord who is in charge of this Bill accepting it. If these people had retained their right of prosecuting an action in a civil court, the jury would have assessed the damages, other than damages arising from loss of employment, or loss of opportunities of financial exploitation, which are familiar to Members below the Gangway, on this side of the Committee or loss involved in the improvement of their physical constitution. The jury in a civil court would take account of something that we are trying to indicate by the words "moral and intellectual damage." We on this side of the Committee believe that these people should not be put into an inferior position owing to the passing of this Bill. Every Member of the Committee will agree that, however much protection is being given to the Members of the Government, these people should be adequately secured in regard to the loss that they may have sustained. In our experience of the working of tribunals, unless it is very definitely laid down, the idea generally obtains that all that has to be measured is the amount of material suffering and the amount of wages that have been lost. There are Members on this side of the Committee who have been victims of a similar exploit. I can remember an hon. Member in this House, the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) speaking with a great deal of feeling. One quite realised that his deportation had produced in him a certain sense of degradation, injustice, and something that affected the personality of the man, something that could not be removed. We do not suppose that in coming to the tribunal this is taken into account in assessing the damage done to these citizens from the British Empire, that the monetary compensation can take from them their idea of revolt against the outrage which has been perpetrated upon their personality. But we do say that there should be action taken and the only guarantee we will have that the tribunal shall take action for it is by having included such words as are indicated in the Amendment. If these words are inserted, "there will be a lever given to the tribunal as will induce the members of the tribunal to assess the damages as they would have been assessed in an ordinary Civil Court and not as they are assessed by a Pensions Tribunal. In the case of a man who suffered in the war and who has to appear before a Pensions Tribunal, his loss is calculated according to his earning capacity. Hon. Members on all sides of the Committee know how very unsatisfactory such assessments are. In this case we hope that the Government, by accepting this Amendment, will secure to these people damages or an assessment for loss which will provide for this attack upon the personality of the individual which was entailed in their deportation by Members of the Government. I hope the noble Lord will accept the Amendment that we are anxious to have in this Bill.
I only rise at this stage to try to ascertain the wishes of the Government. They must have listened not only with interest, but with sympathy to the very sincere and eloquent speeches from this side. I do submit that we are entitled to an answer to this Amendment. Let me put to the noble Lord a hypothetical situation. Supposing one of these unfortunate people was a President of some well-known organisation; supposing, as a result of this unfair and; illegal act, a great mass of the people in that organisation said—prejudiced as they would be by the public statements made by the Press and in this House—"Notwithstanding there was no charge against you, notwithstanding the fact that no evidence has been submitted, notwithstanding the fact that we have not the courage to bring a charge against you, yet the very fact of your being arrested and of all manner of general statements being made, that is sufficient to warrant us withdrawing our confidence from you and of deposing that particular individual from the presidency of an important organisation." How can a tribunal, unless you put in the words of my hon. Friend, accurately assess the damage done? What would be the mere loss of wages, or the mere inconvenience of gaol, if you like, compared to the deportation of a man in such a position? I do ask either the Attorney-General or the noble Lord to reply, because I say in all sincerity that of the many serious Amendments moved on this side of the Committee there is no Amendment moved with more sincerity or with a more genuine desire to do the right thing than the Amendment which is now before the Committee.
I can assure the right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) that I am not going to accept this Amendment. He would be very much astonished if I did. Although I have listened with interest to the various speeches which have been delivered, I do not propose to follow the hon. Members who have spoken, either into a discussion on workmen's compensation or into a discussion on the Note to Soviet Russia or into a discussion as to the Pensions Tribunals or as to the merits of the President of the League of Nations. All those are matters that do not seem to me directly Televant to the points at issue. The suggestion is to include "moral and intel-leettual damage." As far as I know, those words are not known to English jurisprudence as a legal term. They come from a claim from a Dutch Republic some 25 years ago. I cannot help thinking that those hon. Members who have put forward this Amendment with so much sincerity cannot have done me the honour of listening to my speech with the same attention that they assure me their own deserve. If they had they would have noticed that I made it as plain as was in my power that we were assuring by our Amendment that the deportees should get such damages as a court of law would give them. If "moral and intellectual damage" means something more than that, it certainly ought not to be given. If, on the other hand, it means the same as that, then it is only confusing. The deportees will get that damage which they would have got got in a court of law, neither more nor less, and I think the Committee would not wish it to be either more or less. For these reasons the Government cannot accept the Amendment.
I understood the Attorney-General to say that the Government would be prepared to accept another form of words which express the same intention but were more acceptable to this side of the Committee, but perhaps I misunderstood him?
I did say that certain words which are to be moved on the next line of the present Amendment would meet the point. They are to insert after the word "assess" the words "on the principle on which damages would be assessed at common law in a common law action." I am prepared to accept those words and I think they made it quite clear. It is agreed by members on both sides of the Committee that those words make it quite clear.
I would suggest to substitute for "any claim for loss or damage" the words "to claim such damages or loss as he has sustained." I think that makes it clear.
indicated dissent .
I hope the Government will see their way to incorporating at least in this provision which they have moved themselves some words indicating that they are prepared to compensate, not only for monetary loss or even for physical violence, but if none of these things can be proved to have been sustained by any of the deportees that some claim may lie and some compensation be paid for the act of imprisonment itself. After all, whether the Government proceed against any of the deportees or not, whether they proceed against one of them or all of them, it will not in any sense clear the deportees from suspicion of having taken part in a conspiracy in regard to which the Noble Lord in charge of the Bill said that the action of the Home Secretary had saved the lives of hundreds of persons. That is a very serious charge of a very serious conspiracy. Not a single person can escape attention, because it has been laid down that even if persons are not proceeded against in legal form it in no sense implies that they have not been guilty in the eyes of the Government, that though they may know the person is guilty they may not proceed against him because such proceedings would reveal the source of their information with regard to this conspiracy. After a declaration of that description, no person who have been imprisoned or deported, however innocent he may be, can possibly escape suspicion. On those grounds I maintain that some indication should be given that persons who have sustained some moral damage, some damage purely personal, may have a clam against the Government. Surely it is a very serious thing. It is possible, and I understand it has been said, that these persons may be proceeded against under the laws governing the question of high treason. A sentence of such a character under such law carried with it serious consequences and it may be that these deportees, though actually innocent, may lie under suspicion, especially from persons of such
a constitutional character as members of the Government. It is a serious charge and the Government ought in equity and justice to make it perfectly clear in this Clause—in which they admit their liability, admit that they have exceeded their duty, admit that some charge may lie against them—that a claim shall not lie merely for material or pecuniary damage, but for the loss of credit in the eyes of associates or it may be of employers.
If persons are to be followed through life by this charge their employment may be seriously jeopardised. It may be difficult to prove this, for employers do not explain why they refuse to employ people, but we know the practice which goes on in the business and commercial world. There are many ways of getting round a question of that description. Many of these people who have to depend on employment by other persons have a right to say that they shall be compensated for what I call moral and intellectual loss owing to the action of the. Government. The Attorney-General and the Noble Lord in charge of the Bill should agree to some form of words to meet the case I have explained.
rose in his place, and claimed to move , "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 184; Noes, 85.
Division No. 166.] AYES. [1.52 a.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Cadogan, Major Edward Ellis, R. G. Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Apsley, Lord Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Evans, Ernest (Cardigan) Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Chapman, Sir S. Falcon, Captain Michael Baird, Rt. Hon. sir John Lawrence Clarry, Reginald George Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Clayton, G. C. Fawkes, Major F. H. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Cobb, Sir Cyril Flanagan, W. H. Banks, Mitchell Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Barnett, Major Richard W. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Furness, G. J. Barnston, Major Harry Cope, Major William Galbraith, J. F. W. Becker, Harry Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Garland, C. S. Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Goff, Sir R. Park Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Crooke, J. Smediey (Deritend) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Berry, Sir George Curzon, Captain Viscount Gretton, Colonel John Betterton, Henry B. Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Gwynne, Rupert S. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Blades, Sir George Rowland Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Blundell, F. N. Dawson, Sir Philip Halstead, Major D. Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Bruford, R. Doyle, N. Grattan Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Bruton, Sir James Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Buckingham, Sir H. Edmondson, Major A. J. Harrison, F. C. Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.) Ednam, Viscount Harvey, Major S. E. Button, H. S. Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Hawke, John Anthony Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Molloy, Major L. G. S. Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Henn, Sir Sydney H. Molson, Major John Elsdale Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putnay) Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Morris, Harold Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Hiley, Sir Ernest Murchison, C. K. Shepperson, E. W. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Nall, Major Joseph Shipwright, Captain D. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Skelton, A. N. Hood, Sir Joseph Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Hopkins, John W. W. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree) Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Ormsby-Gore, Hon William Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Hughes, Collingwood Parker, Owen (Kettering) Stanley, Lord Hume, G. H. Pease, William Edwin Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Penny, Frederick George Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Jarrett, G. W. S. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Jephcott, A. R. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Peto, Basil E. Tubbs, S. W. King, Captain Henry Douglas Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray Turton, Edmund Russborough Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Privett, F. J. Wallace, Captain E. Lamb, J. Q. Raine, W. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Rankin, Captain James Stuart Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Wells, S. R. Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Greaves-Lord, Walter Reid, D. D. (County Down) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Lort-Williams, J. Remer, J. R. Winterton, Earl Lougher, L. Reynolds, W. G. W. Wise, Frederick Lumley, L. R. Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Wolmer, Viscount McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Robertson-Despencer,Major(Isl'gt'nW) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford) Yerburgh, R. D. T. Margesson, H. D. R. Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Roundell, Colonel R. F. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mercer, Colonel H. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Russell, Alexander West-(Tynemouth) Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Russell, William (Bolton)
NOES. Adams, D. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Phillipps, Vivian Alexander. A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hardie, George D. Potts, John S. Amman, Charles George Hayday, Arthur Pringle, W. M. R. Barnes, A. Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Batey, Joseph Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Royce, William Stapleton Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hirst, G. H. Saklatvala, S. Berkeley, Captain Reginald Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) Salter, Dr. A. Bonwick, A. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Broad, F. A. John, William (Rhondda, West) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Brotherton, J. Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Simpson, J. Hope Buchanan, G. Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Sitch, Charles H. Burgess, S. Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Stephen, Campbell Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Chapple, W. A. Lansbury, George Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lawson, John James Wallhead, Richard C. Darbishire, C. W. Leach, W. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Linfield, F. C. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lunn, William Webb, Sidney Dunnico, H. MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Wheatley, J. Ede, James Chuter M'Entee, V. L. Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) McLaren, Andrew Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Foot, Isaac Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Gosling, Harry Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Maxton, James Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Middleton, G. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Mosley, Oswald Groves, T. Muir, John W. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Grundy, T. W. Murnin, H. Mr. Griffiths and Mr. Morgan Jones. Hall. F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 81; Noes, 185.
Division No. 167.] AYES. [2.0 a.m. Adams, D. Brotherton, J. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Buchanan, G. Dunnico, H. Ammon, Charles George Burgess, S. Ede, James Chuter Barnes, A. Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Batey, Joseph Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Foot, Isaac Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Chapple, W. A. Gosling, Harry Bonwick, A. Darbishire, C. W. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Broad, F. A. Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Lawson, John James Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Leach, W. Sitch, Charles H. Groves, T. Linfield, F. C. Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Grundy, T. W. MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Stephen, Campbell Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) M'Entee, V. L. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) McLaren, Andrew Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow) Hardie, George D. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Wallhead, Richard C. Hayday, Arthur Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Middleton, G. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Mosley, Oswald Webb, Sidney Hirst, G. H. Muir, John W. Wheatley, J. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Murnin, H. Williams, David (Swansea, E.) John, William (Rhondda, West) Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Phillipps, Vivian Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Potts, John S. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Pringle, W. M. R. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Royce, William Stapleton Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Saklatvala, S. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Lansbury, George Salter, Dr. A. Mr. Robertson and Mr. Lunn.
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Flanagan, W. H. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S. Furness, G. J. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Apsley, Lord Galbraith, J. F. W. Ormsby-Gore, Hon William Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Garland, C. S. Parker, Owen (Kettering) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Pease, William Edwin Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Goff, Sir R. Park Pennefather, De Fonblanque Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Greaves-Lord, Walter Penny, Frederick George Balfour, George (Hampstead) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Banks, Mitchell Gretton, Colonel John Perkins, Colonel E. K. Barnett, Major Richard W. Gwynne, Rupert S. Peto, Basil E. Barnston. Major Harry Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray Becker, Harry Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Privett. F. J. Bell, Lieut. Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Halstead, Major D. Raine, W. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Rankin, Captain James Stuart Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Berry, Sir George Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Betterton, Henry B. Harrison, F. C. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Harvey, Major S. E. Remer, J. R. Blades, Sir George Rowland Hawke, John Anthony Reynolds, W. G. W. Blundell, F. N. Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Robertson-Despencer,Major(lsl'gt'nW) Brassey, Sir Leonard Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford) Bruford, R. Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Bruton, Sir James Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Roundell, Colonel R. F. Buckingham, Sir H. Hlley, Sir Ernest Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Russell, Alexander West-(Tynemouth) Button, H. S. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Russell, William (Bolton) Cadogan, Major Edward Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Hood, Sir Joseph Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hopkins, John W. W. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hughes, Collingwood Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Chapman, Sir S. Hume, G. H. Shepperson, E. W. Clarry, Reginald George Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Shipwright, Captain D. Clayton, G. C. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Cobb, Sir Cyril Jarrett, G. W. S. Skelton, A. N. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Jephcott, A. R. Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree) Cope, Major William King, Captain Henry Douglas Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Stanley, Lord Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Lamb, J. Q. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Curzon, Captain Viscount Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Lort-Williams, J. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Lougher, L. Tubbs, S. W. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Lumley, L. R. Turton, Edmund Russborough Dawson, Sir Philip McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Wallace, Captain E. Dlxon, C. H. (Rutland) Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Doyle, N. Grattan Margesson, H. D. R. Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Wells, S. R. Edmondson, Major A. J. Mercer, Colonel H. White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Ednam, Viscount Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Winterton. Earl Ellis, R. G. Molloy, Major L. G. S. Wise, Frederick England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Molson, Major John Elsdale Wolmer, Viscount Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Evans, Ernest (Cardigan) Morris, Harold Yerburgh, R. D. T. Eyres-Monsell. Com. Bolton M. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Falcon, Captain Michael Murchison, C. K. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Nail, Major Joseph Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Fawkes, Major F. H. Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)
I beg to move as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the word "he" ["damage lie may have sustained"], to insert the words "or his dependants."
I take it that it was due to an oversight on the part of the Government that these words did not appear in the original draft of the Government's Amendment. We can excuse the oversight in the circumstances because these Amendments were very hastily prepared, with very poor consideration, and I have no doubt will have to be altered if the time at their disposal will enable the Government to do so before submitting them to this House. It is surprising that, even in their mature state, they should not be in a condition to compel the sympathies of those who have to consider them. I want the Government to treat my Amendment with the utmost possible sympathy. I am eure if those in charge of the Bill will consider it, they will see that it is not merely the person who has been arrested and deported who may suffer damage, but that you may have all starts of dependants for whom the damage may be even more serious than the damage suffered by the first party. One may without a great deal of consideration contemplate various circumstances. You have a large number of people here and no doubt they occupy various stations in working class life with which we are all familiar. The Son of a widowed mother, for instance, who is the apple of her eye. She would suffer from the shock of deportation and internment. Or you may have the case of an aged parent dependant on one of these deportees. They may have suffered serious loss that could not be met by damage to be assessed. You might go over a long list of people who are dependants and who would require to he taken into account, but there is a more serious side to it. You have probably permanently damaged the health of these people and destroyed their wage-earning capacity and where you have fathers and mothers dependant on the earning capacity of these people you have permanently destroyed their source of income. Surely it would not be in keeping with the majesty of Parliament or the generosity of the Conservative party that they should pass over the claims of the people who could present such a fighting attitude as the people who had demonstrated that they could not always be injured with impunity. Aged people are past the stage of life where they can put up a fight such as is connected by the conduct of His Majesty's Government, and I think it is only ordinary chivalry that you should make as generous a provision for the dependants as you would make for the people who are in a physical state to give you a considerable amount of trouble. I think this is something which might be unanimously accepted by the Committee.
I wish to support the Amendment by giving a case which I believe has happened. We have been under the disadvantage of not having the Government Amendment in print, but I must bring to the notice of the Committee the fact that no person who has suffered damage is entitled to claim, unless he comes within the terms of the Government Amendment. The only people under the Amendment who can bring a claim are "any person who has been deported to Ireland," and he can only make a claim for any loss or damage he may have sustained. But take the case of the daughter of a person who has been deported and who, in consequence of her father having been deported, loses her employment as a teacher in a school. That is a very direct consequence of the action taken by the Home Secretary. Under the Government Amendment, she is not allowed to make any claim because she has not been deported. Nevertheless, this is an item of loss, and I suggest that this is a very serious loss. Yet it cannot be taken into account by the tribunal. Perhaps I am wrong, and perhaps the Attorney-General will tell me it can be taken into account. I could quite imagine that the words would allow the tribunal to take into account the loss suffered by members of the family. After all, families stand together as one. There was also the case where two daughters were given the option. One was deported and can claim, the other was not deported and cannot claim. I want to ask the Attorney-General in what way he can provide for such a case. If, in the first case, the daughter's claim could not be assessed by the tribunal on the father's claim, it seems to me that this is a case for which the Government have omitted to provide. Perhaps the Attorney-General will show us that the words of the Amendment are unnecessary or how the case can be provided for. That, I suggest, would be the wishes of the Committee. Unless that is dona a serious hole will have been left which is not provided for.
I regret it is impossible for the Government to accept this Amendment. The reason the Government cannot take in all these cases is this. They gave an undertaking they would insert a Clause in this Bill securing to the deportees those rights to compensation for false imprisonment which might otherwise have been taken from them by the Bill. They cannot go beyond that limit. I am not quite sure if the acceptance of the Amendment would not be beyond the scope of the Bill. Once it was done there would be no limit to the extensions.
I feel sure hon. Members on this side of the Committee will be keenly disappointed with the words of the Noble Lord. The position is this. We have been able to induce the Government to move gradually in favour of the points of view that we have expressed. The Committee will remember when we left prior to the Whitsuntide recess there was no promise of compensation of any kind to the deportees. When we came back, pressure has been brought to bear upon the Government, mainly from these benches, and they climbed down and have moved an Amendment to provide that there shall be some form of compensation in these cases. But when we came to analyse their pledge we find that there is no promise of compensation at all. There is only a promise of an assessment of an amount due to the person. In fact, the Amendment submitted by the Government, which we are now desirous of amending, is only a promise that these people shall make a claim for compensation or damages. We are making the further point that the dependants of the deportees who have suffered along with them the agony that must come from an arrest of that kind shall be compensated also. We want an extension of any compensation or damages that may be due to cover the cases of the dependants as well and we have precedent for what we are demanding. When the Government conscripted men during the War, what did they do? When they took men away by force they made provision, at any rate, not only for the man himself but for the man's wife and his children. That is all we claim in this connection. These deportees were conscripted, were arrested against their will, were placed in handcuffs and taken away; they were carried off to prison, taken on a destroyer at the point of the bayonet, and taken to Ireland. It is true, and if I depicted it in Welsh, you would be staggered.
I must ask the hon. Member to come by a less circuitous. course to the dependants.
The English language is rich enough to describe what I want to say, although the Welsh language is richer. I should like seriously to ask the Noble Lord whether, when this tribunal is assessing the damages or compensation, the point we are now making, even in spite of the fact that the. words of the Amendment may not be included, will be taken into account by the tribunal. That is a reasonable request. The tribunal in assessing damages or compensation should take into account the fact that these people have suffered. I can give a case in point. I know one of the deportees—I have stated the case before—a man in a fairly large way of business. When he wae taken away the whole responsibility of this large business fell upon the wife. Not only has the man suffered in business consequent upon the fact that he was deported, but the woman's responsibility was increased, and his business suffered as well, owing to the fact that he was not able to carry it on as successfully as he would have done had he been home. There is substance in the case we make, and I shall be glad if the Noble Lord and the Attorney-General would tell us whether, in assessing compensation, this tribunal will have regard to the fact that the dependants of these people have suffered personal indignity as well.
I wish to support this Amendment; I am surprised at the statement made by the Noble Lord that this Amendment, if accepted by the Government, would exceed the limits placed upon the promise given yesterday. I do not think it does. If the dependants of a deported person suffer in the way represented by the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb)—and I have a case in my own constituency—there is nothing in the Bill which lays it upon the tribunal to assess compensation. [ Laughter .]. It seems a source of merriment to hon. Members on the Government side that there should be any claim put in on behalf of dependants. I fail to see the cause of the merriment. If they had any experience at all of families being placed in a position like this they would not be so inclined to smile and to treat it as a joke. They cannot apparently understand the difficulties they have to go through. They cannot understand that in the schools the children of men who have been deported, wrongfully deported, are treated with derision that makes it impossible for them to continue in school and in some cases they have had to remove to schools further away, causing expense to the parents. That is not thought of at all by hon. Members on the opposite side and yet it all comes into account. The dependant loses; as the hon. Member for Seaham said the family loses and there is no guarantee that the tribunal will take this into account. It is for the purpose of safeguarding that that the Amendment is moved. I hope the Government even yet will accept it, if not in the actual words put down, at least in a form which will cover the point of making it secure that the tribunal will consider this and to provide compensation.
There are no doubt cases that are not altogether covered by the Amendment as it stands. There is a popular method of testing character just as there is a popular method of testing insanity. The popular test is whether or not a person has been able to keep out of gaol. If it can be said of a person that he has been in gaol, it can be said for the rest of his life. There is a case to be made here. Yesterday I presented a petition from a person who has suffered grievously by being deported. I interviewed that man to find out all the circumstances of his arrest, of his incarceration and of his sufferings. He told me when he was released and returned that he found that his occupation was gone, that someone else filled his place, that he was despised and turned aside even by members of his family. The evil of arrest and imprisonment without charge is this—that a person has no opportunity to prove his innocence.
The hon. Member must really come to the point of the dependants.
My brief journey to that end is the one I am on now. The stigma of having been in gaol is attached to this man but also to the other members of his family, and in similar cases the attachment of a stigma like that cannot be assessed in this way unless you include some other words that cover the dependants of these people. I strongly support the Amendment for that reason, and I think it ought to make provision for these cases. It should be taken into consideration that these people and those associated with them have to suffer all their lives because of the stigma attaching to them by being thrown into gaol and because of the denial of the opportunity of demonstrating their innocence.
The reply given by the representative of the Government to the Amendment was one that surprised me very much. The method of treating the Amendment on the opposite side of the Committee surprised me even more. It appears to be a matter of merriment—
On a point of Order. There is a repetition of references to merriment being made on this side. We take exception to it. There is much more merriment on the other side.
I should have thought that the hon. and gallant Gentleman who rose to a point of Order would have known it was no point of Order. Whatever he may say to the contrary, those who sit in this or any other part of the Committee cannot fail to have noticed the extreme merriment on the other side of the Committee.
Come over here, and you will see more.
After all, we are now considering the act of a blundering Home Secretary advised by incompetent Law Officers. We are considering what reparation shall be made by what, I hope, is a generous House of Commons to compensate the people who have suffered as a consequence of the action of the Government. If we are to consider the suffering that has come as a consequence of the action of a blundering Government, we ought to consider all those who have suffered. No one can seriously argue that there are not dependants of the men who have been arrested and deported who may not have suffered very much more than the deportees themselves. I would like to put this to the right hon. Gentlemen opposite. What would be their feelings if they were arrested and deported? What would be the feelings of their mothers for instance? What would be the feeling of the mother of any of us? Probably they do not think about it, but if they were placed in the circumstances in which some of these men were placed, they would be compelled to think about it. Frankly, I think it would be worth while to place some of them in those circumstances to give them an opportunity of thinking about it. If they were in those circumstances and had the opportunity of thinking about it, they might approach this matter and consider the sufferings of these dependants in a more humane spirit than they are apparently willing to consider them in to-night.
I remember perfectly well meeting some of the hon. Gentlemen opposite during the War and listening to some of their speeches pleading for the dependants of the men who were going over the seas to defend their interests at home and their lives. Would any of them argue that, simply because these men who have been deported differ from them politically and happen to come under their suspicion, that their dependants should not be relieved? Are there any of us on this side who are not under their suspicion? Probably, if they had the opportunity, they would deport all of us. It is because I believe that and seriously fear they would even deport me, that I am wondering what would be the feelings of my dependants in the event of my own deportation. Knowing what my family would have to undergo, I am asking hon. Members to consider what would be their feelings and the feelings of their families. The case given by the hon. Member was such that I hope there is no one in the Committee so utterly devoid of feeling as to turn it down and say that such a case should receive no compensation at all. I believe if any Member were sitting on a bench with the legal power to award damages in such a case his generosity and manly feelings would compel him to do so. Why should not the Government be more generous and more just at the same time. It is their blunder. These dependants are not suffering as a result of any crime. Perhaps some of the men may be, but it is not yet proved, and probably will not be. Yet it is not disputed that these dependants, who have suffered as a result of this blunder, have committed no crime. I wish the Government were more generous and could rise to the point of generosity of admitting that people in no sense guilty have suffered as a result of their blunder. I wish we had got bigger men on the Front Opposition Bench.
The Front Opposition Bench is not relevant.
I am appealing to the Minister in charge on the Front Treasury Bench.
The hon. Member complained that there was no one of sufficient authority on the Front Opposition Bench.
No. I said there was not a big enough man in mental outlook, not in stature. [HON. MEMBERS: You mean the Treasury Bench.]
The Amendment refers to dependants.
Is not the hon. Member entitled to make a reference to Members on the Government Front Bench and ask them to rise to a higher standard?
The physical standard of the two front benches has nothing to do with it.
What my hon. Friend meant was men of sufficiently large moral outlook.
After what I meant has been explained by two or three other Members, perhaps I may have an opportunity of explaining it myself. I do not think I was in any way out of Order; at least I had no desire to be out of Order. I was making a spiritual appeal to the Government and asking them to be big enough mentally and morally to admit the consequences of their own action, to be generous and to give some compensation to these people who have suffered in consequence of that action. If we cannot get that we cannot, but the members of the public will know that we on this side tried to induce the Government to give reasonable compensation to the people who have suffered and are unable to protect themselves. I hope the Government will not continue in their attitude. If they do, I hope the Committee will be bigger than the Government and support the claim that the dependants who have suffered in consequence of the Government's action should have reasonable compensation.
There is one kind of case which I think has been overlooked by the Government in their Amendment, and which, I think, would be covered by the new Amendment before the Committee. It is reported that three or four of the released deportees are seriously ill; one indeed is so seriously ill that, I am informed, he is unfortunately likely to die within a short time. If that should happen, the dependants of that deportee, under the Government's Amendment, will be completely shut out from any form of compensation. I know this case, and I would particularly ask the attention of those in charge of the Bill to it. I submit that it would be within the desire of the Committee that cases of that sort should be met by the addition of some appropriate words. The Amendment before the Committee does seem to cover that ground, and if the Government cannot accept it, I appeal to them to otherwise cover that case. There is also the case of a deportee who was released by the direction of the Advisory Committee. He is also very ill. He was released partly on that ground and partly on the ground that no evidence could be adduced against him. There is no suggestion that he should be prosecuted, and he is, it seems, one of those who should not have been arrested and dealt with in this manner. There is also the case of another person who is ill, and who, unless he should unfortunately die, would certainly have a claim; but if he should die, his relatives would be entirely deprived of any part of the compensation under this Bill.
Does the hon. Member suggest that each of the three cases is directly due to the arrest?
The illness of one of them has certainly been aggravated seriously by the treatment received. But even supposing that was not the case, supposing he died from any other cause unrelated to the treatment to which he was subjected, no compensation will be-available for his dependants. I submit that that is a case which ought to be met.
I am surprised at the Government refusing to accept this Amendment. I think the Government might on this Bill have been in a happier mood. All my life, when a marriage has taken place, like that between the two wings of the Government, there has usually been, out of that marriage, a happier time—a spirit bountifully blessing people who have suffered in the past. That was the case more or less with the big landlords in Scotland with regard to-their tenants, at least for a few weeks.
Will the hon. Member come by some rather less circuitous route to the Amendment?
It was put into my mind by the new members of the Government that they might have been more generous. There is a case in my particular Division, and there is another in the Division of the hon. Member for Kelvingrove (Mr. W. Hutchison), who, I had expected, would have assisted us with this Amendment. I am thinking of the case of a man who fought in the War and rendered his country good service; a tramway employéof the Glasgow Corporation. Such men must have a fairly high character. He is arrested in the middle of the night and separated from his wife and family, one of the children being below the age of twelve months. Any person who knows the circumstances of such a case will know that the wife and child have effects left on them. Any person who has been under that ordeal must know. Let me give a personal experience. My mother was 70 years of age and during the War our house was raided by the police. It so happened that we were outside the law, but I still remember that for weeks and months my mother had effects of that happening left on her, and even yet she still has them. Here you have even a worse case, where a young married woman is concerned, and that happening is bound to affect the life of the child for years to come. I contrast the treatment of the Government in respect of the families of the aristocrats of Ireland and the treatment of the dependants of those people we are now discussing—the one case generous in extreme and the other niggardly in extreme. The one was just as helpless as the other. We are now told by the Noble Lord that nothing can be done. I had hoped that the Government might have accepted the Amendment. It is not a very big thing; it is not a thing that will run them into much expense. The hon. Member who spoke last pointed out that if a man or woman who had been interned happened to die before proceedings were instituted, automatically the relatives would have no case for compensation. How does that compare with ordinary legal proceedings? If a man happens to die during the time that proceedings are being taken, his relatives are not debarred from proceeding with the case. This Government is going from bad to worse. When I stood at my Election I was opposed by a member—
The hon. Member must confine himself to the Amendment.
I was going to point out that the Government were not quite so bad when I entered this House, and I think a case can be made out for this Amendment. In my own constituency there is a man who was arrested. He has five in his family, one of them a cripple. During the time he was interned, his family were dependent on parish relief. In normal times that man earned comparatively good wages, quite sufficient to give his family at least decent food. During the time he was interned they had to live on an insufficient diet, and as a result they are not now in as good a physical condition. Surely in these circumstances that man's family are entitled to some consideration.
3.0 A.M.
I think we are entitled to some answer from the Noble Lord or the Attorney-General in reply to the statement of the hon. Member for Bermondsey (Dr. Salter) for which I also can vouch. It seems to me there cannot be any answer except to cencede the point. We are not asking for extra compensation; we are only asking that the rights of dependants should be safeguarded, so that they may get what they would have been entitled to had the man lived. We are not saying that the death of this man of necessity has been caused through internment. The point is that while alive these people are entitled to compensation for illegal acts committed against them, and we want the dependants to get the compensation if the man dies before the claim is settled. Nobody but mean-spirited people can object to that. I have understood all through from the Ministers who have spoken, that they intended that people who suffered through the illegal acts of Ministers should not be in a worse position through this Indemnity Bill than they would otherwise have been. Under the old Act of Richard II I cannot believe that dependants of men who had a claim against the Home Secretary or any Government official would not have been entitled to pursue that claim and obtain the compensation that would have had to be paid. If this Bill is to place the people in the same position that they would have been in had it not been brought forward, obviously these words or some others will have to be put in. If our words are too wide, I would ask the Government to insert words which would allow a widow and children to have what the man would have been entitled to had he lived. It may seem a small matter to some hon. Members opposite, but it is a very big matter for the widow and children. This is not a question of hearsay. It is something for which we can give chapter and verse. There is a possibility that two of these men are going to die, and we feel that in their hearts hon. Members opposite would agree that there ought to be something in the Bill ensuring that the widows and children of these men should be able to obtain the money that the men would have obtained had they lived. This is such a human thing for which we ask that I cannot believe that anyone on the opposite side can really in his heart object to it. I want the Attorney-General and the Noble Lord to understand that the one thing and the one thing only that we are asking for is that the wife or mother or the children of one of these men shall be in a position to obtain from the State what the man himself could have obtained had he lived. That is all, and I cannot see myself that there can be any just or right answer to that appeal except to say yes.
rose in his place and claimed to move: "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question De now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 175; Noes, 90.
Division No. 168.] AYES. [3.2 a.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Furness, G. J. Nicholson, Brlg.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S. Galbraith, J. F. W. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Apsley, Lord Garland, C. S. Parker, Owen (Kettering) Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Pease, William Edwin Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Goff, Sir R. Park Pennefather, De Fonblanque Balrd, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Greaves-Lord, Walter Penny, Frederick George Balfour, George (Hampstead) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Banks, Mitchell Gretton, Colonel John Perkins, Colonel E. K. Barnett, Major Richard W. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Peto, Basil E. Barnston, Major Harry Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Privett, F. J. Becker, Harry Halstead, Major D. Raine, W. Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Rankin, Captain James Stuart Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Berry, Sir George Harrison, F. C. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Betterton, Henry B. Harvey, Major S. E. Remer, J. R. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Hawke. John Anthony Reynolds, W. G. W. Blades, Sir George Rowland Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Blundell, F. N. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Robertson-Despencer,Major(lsl'gt'nW) Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford) Brassey, Sir Leonard Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Bruford, R. Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Roundell, Colonel R. F. Bruton, Sir James Hiley, Sir Ernest Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Buckingham, Sir H. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Button, H. S. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Russell, William (Bolton) Cadogan, Major Edward Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Campion. Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Hood, Sir Joseph Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hopkins, John W. W. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Chadwlck, Sir Robert Burton Hughes, Collingwood Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Chapman, Sir S. Hume, G. H. Shepperson, E. W. Clarry, Reginald George Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Shipwright, Captain D. Clayton, G. C. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Cobb, Sir Cyril Jephcott, A. R. Skelton, A. N. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips King, Captain Henry Douglas Stanley, Lord Cope, Major William Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Lamb, J. Q. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Curzon, Captain Viscount Lort-Williams, J. Tubbs, S. W. Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemet Hempstead) Lougher, L. Turton, Edmund Russborough Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Lumley, L. R. Wallace, Captain E. Dawson, Sir Philip McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Doyle, N. Grattan Margesson, H. D. R. Wells, S. R. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Edmondson, Major A. J. Mercer, Colonel H. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Ednam, Viscount Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Winterton, Earl Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Wise, Frederick Ellis, R. G. Molloy, Major L. G. S. Wolmer, Viscount England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Molson, Major John Elsdale Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col, J. T. C. Yerburgh, R. D. T. Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Falcon, Captain Michael Murchison, C. K. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Nail, Major Joseph Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs Fawkes, Major F. H. Newman, Colonel J. R. p. (Finchley) Flanagan, W. H. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
NOES. Adams, D. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Grundy, T. W. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Darbishire, C. W. Hall. F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Barnes, A. Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Batey, Joseph Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Hardie, George D. Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Dunnico, H. Hastings, Patrick Berkeley, Captain Reginald Ede, James Chuter Hayday, Arthur Bonwick, A. Edge, Captain Sir William Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Broad, F. A. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Brotherton, J. Foot, Isaac Hirst, G. H. Buchanan, G. Gosling, Harry Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) Burgess, S. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Jarrett, G. W. S. Burnle, Major J. (Bootle) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) John, William (Rhondda, West) Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Chappie, W. A. Groves, T. Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Morris, Harold Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby). Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Mosley, Oswald Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Muir, John W. Wallhead, Richard C. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Lansbury, George Pattlnson, S. (Horncastle) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Lawson, John James Phillipps, Vivian Webb, Sidney Leach, W. Potts, John S. Wheatley, J. Linfield, F. C. Royce, William Stapleton Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Lunn, William Saklatvala, S. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Salter, Dr. A. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercllffe) MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) M'Entee, V. L. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) McLaren, Andrew Simpson, J. Hope Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Sitch, Charles H. Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Middleton, G. Stephen, Campbell Mr. Robertson and Mr. Ammon.
Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 89; Noes, 173.
Division No. 169.] AYES. [3.10 a.m. Adams, D. Grundy. T. W. Mosley, Oswald Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Muir, John W. Ammon, Charles George Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Barnes, A. Hardie, George D. Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Batey, Joseph Hastings, Patrick Phillipps, Vivian Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hayday, Arthur Potts, John S. Berkeley, Captain Reginald Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Royce, William Stapleton Bonwick, A. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Saklatvala, S. Broad, F. A. Hirst, G. H. Salter, Dr. A. Brotherton, J Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Buchanan, G. Jarrett, G. W. S. Simpson, J. Hope Burgess, S. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Sitch, Charles H. Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) John, William (Rhondda, West) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.) Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Stephen, Campbell Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Chapple, W. A. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Wallhead. Richard C. Darbishire, C. W. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Jowett, F. w. (Bradford, East) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lansbury, George Webb, Sidney Dunnico, H. Lawson, John James Wheatley, J. Ede, James Chuter Leach, W. Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Edge, Captain Sir William Linfield, F. C. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercllffe) Foot, Isaac MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Gosling, Harry M'Entee, V. L. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Graham D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) McLaren, Andrew Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Marshall, Sir Arthur H. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Middleton, G. Mr. Robertson and Mr. Lunn. Groves, T. Morris, Harold
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Button, H. S. Ednam, Viscount Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Cadogan, Major Edward Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Ellis, R. G. Apsley, Lord Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Chapman, Sir S. Falcon, Captain Michael Balfour, George (Hampstead) Clarry, Reginald George Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Banks, Mitchell Clayton, G. C. Fawkes, Major F. H. Barnett, Major Richard W. Cobb, Sir Cyril Flanagan, W. H. Barnston, Major Harry Cockerlll, Brigadier-General G. K. Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Becker, Harry Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Furness, G. J. Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Cope, Major William Galbraith, J. F. W. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Garland, C. S. Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Berry, Sir George Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Goff, Sir R. Park Betterton, Henry B. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Greaves-Lord, Walter Blrchall, Major J. Dearman Curzon, Captain Viscount Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Blades, Sir George Rowland Davidson. J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Gretton, Colonel John Blundell, F. N. Davies, Thomas (Clrencester) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Dawson, Sir Philip Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Brassey, Sir Leonard Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Halstead, Major D. Bruford, R. Doyle, N. Grattan Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Bruton, Sir James Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Buckingham, Sir H. Edmondson, Major A. J. Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kant) Harrison, F. C. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Russell, William (Bolton) Harvey, Major S. E Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Hawke, John Anthony Molloy, Major L. G. S. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Molson, Major John Elsdale Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney). Henn, Sir Sydney H. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Murchison, C. K. Shepperson. E. W. Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Nail, Major Joseph Shipwright, Captain D. Hiley, Sir Ernest Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchlsy) Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Skelton, A. N. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Stanley, Lord Hopkins, Jchn W. W. Parker, Owen (Kettering) Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Pease, William Edwin Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Hughes, Collingwood Pennefather, De Fonblanque Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Hume, G. H. Penny, Frederick George Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Tubbs, S. W. Jephcott, A. R. Peto, Basil E. Turton, Edmund Russborough Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Privett, F. J. Wallace, Captain E. King, Captain Henry Douglas Raine, W. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Rankin, Captain James Stuart Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Lamb, J. Q Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Wells, S. R. Lane-Fox, Lieut-Colonel G. R. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Remer, J. R. Winterton. Earl Lort-Willlams, J. Reynolds, W. G. W. Wise, Frederick Lougher, L. Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Wolmer, Viscount Lumley, L. R. Robertson-Despencer. Major(IsI'gt'nW) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford) Yerburgh, R. D. T. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Margesson, H. D. R. Roundell, Colonel R. F. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Mercer, Colonel H. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
The Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Govan appears to be already covered by the last words of the Government Amendment, but I will call upon him, to hear his point.
On this point you unfortunately were absent when this Amendment that you now say is covered was admitted by the Deputy-Chairman. I am quite sure that you would expect me to draw your attention to a ruling that has already been given from the Chair on this very Amendment.
Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that the Deputy-Chairman said he would select this Amendment?
Yes, and he intimated that the hon. Gentleman would be entitled to move it.
If that be so, then I will call the Amendment.
On a point of Order. It is within my recollection that I handed in an Amendment which ought to take precedence of this one.
It ought also to be within the hon. Member's recollection that I told him I was unable to select it.
There is something here which you may have overlooked that would justify the acceptance of the Amendment.
I am afraid I cannot allow the question to be argued. The duty of selection rests with the Chair.
I bow to your ruling.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the word "internment" ["deportation and internment "], to insert the words
"and for costs incurred in substantiating such claim."
The purpose of this Amendment is to enable those individuals who have been deported and have a grievance against the Government to be able to claim, not merely on grounds of damage done either to themselves or to their reputation or for loss merely by the stoppage of profits or of wages, but also to include-any costs that may have been incurred in prosecuting their claim and in substantiating it before the tribunal.
On a point of Order. Is not this the wrong place for this Amendment, seeing that the question of costs is dealt with in the second Subsection?
We are considering an Amendment, not this typewritten paper which has been distributed to a few privileged persons. If the Government had printed this as part of the Bill, the Noble Lord would be perfectly right in saying that, but because he says that later on he is going to move some more of this precious document that is no reason for preventing the hon. Member from moving this.
The whole was moved.
Only the first section.
The whole was read.
I understood that the whole was read, but I cannot reject the Amendment on a matter of Order but on the merits. The Noble Lord can argue it would come in a better place.
I was going to draw attention to the point that the original Bill says in line 15:
There is another point that calls for consideration in this Amendment. Some of these people may have to travel a distance in order to attend the tribunal. In Scotland the tribunal may sit at Glasgow or Edinburgh, but all the deportees from Scotland do not come from Glasgow or Edinburgh. People were deported from Dundee. 60 miles from either, and from various parts of Renfrewshire and Lanarkshire. Their costs in travelling will have to be met, and also the cost of waiting over night if it is necessary to do so in order to wait for their case to come on. We feel certain that the Government ought to meet that expenditure. Another point which the Government must take into consideration arises out of the words:
If it be convenient, I shall tell the hon. Member that this provision, which is taken word by word from the 1920 Act, is a provision to enable the tribunal to compel the attendance of witnesses; otherwise they could not subpoena a witness to attend in court. It is not to direct the parties to the suit, it is to direct and enable the tribunal to bring witnesses there.
I thank the Attorney-General for his explanations, but why did a member of the Government rule out of order my Amendment? I suggest that, even supposing witnesses have to be called, who is going to pay them? Supposing any individual who has been deported makes a statement to the tribunal that since he has been released he has been attending a doctor owing to what happened to him in Mountjoy, and sup- posing that doctor is compelled to attend that tribunal. That would cost something if the tribunal sat at a distance from the man's home. Is the expense of the doctor's atendance to be borne by the individual making the claim, or is the Government intending to include the cost in the sum which is going to be awarded to the deportee as compensation? These are points which require explanation, otherwise the tribunal will be completely at a loss as to what their actual powers are in the way of voting sums. The individual who has been deported cannot understand either how he is to to make out his claim; whether it is to be merely for loss of time and his own personal inconvenience, or whether it is to include any costs over and above. I suggest, therefore, that the Amendment which I am moving, or some other Amendment which the Attorney-General or the Noble Lord can move with the same object, will require to be inserted. If this be not done, there is likely to be considerable loss incurred by each of these deportees, and confusion will exist in their minds as to the method in which they should make out their claims.
I have been rather astonished during this sitting to hear the Attorney-General time after time compare this tribunal which is going to be set up with the tribunals which he assumes were set up under the 1920 Indemnity Act. As a matter of fact, I sat on a Select Committee in connection with the 1920 Indemnity Act, and I think the Attorney-General, on closer investigation, will find the comparison rather out of joint. The tribunals, as he calls them, who dealt with the claims under the 1920 Indemnity Act were tribunals which were in being before the Act was passed. These tribunals did not deal with claims for false imprisonment. They dealt with claims for damage to property or property which had been in use by the State. The only rights that people had in presenting their claims to these bodies was to send in their claims in writing. Does the right hon. Gentleman think there is any comparison between the claims for damage to property or property held by the State and the claims by men and women for false imprisonment which has meant the violation of the great Act of which we are all so proud? I submit that there is no comparison and therefore this Amendment ought to have serious consideration from the Attorney-General. I heard the Attorney-General make the statement that tribunals would be travelling round, but it seems to me that if these people are to get a chance to present their cases at all it will be absolutely necessary for them to attend. What is more, it will be necessary for them to incur some costs. What the right hon. Gentleman ought to understand is that some of these people are very poor. I expected to hear him say that he would take steps to help them by sending them vouchers to enable them to attend in person before the tribunal, and I do not know how the right hon Gentleman can support the claim that cases can be heard without the presence of the persons concerned, or how he thinks they can present their cases without being guaranteed the costs. I hope he will also do something to substantiate his claim that there is some comparison between these tribunals dealing with claims for false imprisonment and the tribunals which simply deal with damage to property.
The reason why the Government cannot ask the Committee to accept the Amendment is because the matter is fully provided for in the main Amendment which the Government propose. That Amendment provides that:
"The tribunal shall have power to award and assess such sums by way of costs as they in their discretion may think fit."
Does not the point that the Attorney-General was making apply only to witnesses?
I am sorry if I did not make myself clear. The hon. Member in his argument cited the words of the Government Amendment—
"A person may be compelled to attend and give evidence,"
and said that that led him to believe that it was contemplated that the claims would be heard in the absence of the claimants. I pointed out that the provision quoted justified no such inference, because it was proposing to give to the tribunal the ordinary power to subpoena witnesses. The words I am now referring to are the concluding words of the subsection, which of course include the item of expenses of bringing witnesses which in any ordinary inquiry are incurred, the item of travelling expenses and living expenses while waiting the trial, and matters of that kind. Another item is the expense of employing legal assistance, where that is supposed to be necessary. Therefore, if the Amendment now moved were adopted, it would only mean that the tribunal would have to include in the amount of compensation the costs incurred in substantiating the claim. That would be an almost impossible burden to impose on the claimant, because he would not know what the costs would be, and the proposal is wholly unnecessary because the tribunal, at the close of the case, will assess such sum as costs as they in their discretion think fit.
I wonder if the Attorney-General is quite so certain about the reading of the Government Amendment as h:' appears to be. Might I suggest that he should read Sub-section (2) without any reference to sub-section (1)? There is no reference in Subsection (2) to the claim that is being made by the deported person in Sub-section (1). Sub-section (2) deals exclusively with witnesses, production of documents and so on. It reads:
"A person may be compelled to attend and give evidence or produce documents in proceedings before any such tribunal in like manner as in proceedings before an arbitrator‥‥ and the tribunal shall have power to award and assess such sums by way of costs as they in their discretion may think fit."
Costs for what? Surely that is defined by Sub-section (2). In any event, even if the Attorney-General is right, in his own interest he ought to put in words that will leave no room for doubt. Subsection (2) as it stands by itself is clear. The costs are to be given in connection with witnesses, the production of documents and so on. The Attorney-General is quite wrong in saying that it is definite that the costs given under Sub-section (2) apply to the provisions of Sub-section (1). It is not clear, and I suggest that he ought to draft something which would not be open to doubt.
I should like to ask the Attorney-General if he has really considered one point to which be has not referred. It seems to me to raise a point of some substance. I understood yesterday that already some actions had been commenced, while under Clause 1 of this Bill actions are to 'be discharged and made void. What will happen in these actions?
On a point of Order. I thought Amendments dealing with this point had been accepted by the Attorney-General.
There was an Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. F. Gray).
The Attorney-General might be annoyed that we are persisting in these Amendments, and that they might appear meticulous, but we have so much to be suspicious about in connection with what the Government have done in this matter that we are determined to make this Bill as clear as we can. We desire in this Amendment to get compensation or damages paid to cover the cost of substantiating claims made by the deportees. Trade union officials on this side of the Committee— there are none I suppose on the other side—have met cases of claims for damages or workmen's compensation where the costs of the lawyer are much heavier than the total amount of the compensation or damages received by the individual. That is a common case. If the Government get their way in the case under review, I shall not be surprised if the amount of compensation assessed by the tribunal is less than the total sum spent in substantiating the claim. The Committee will appreciate why we fear that. We are somewhat alarmed at the attitude of the Government towards this Bill. There is one question I would like to ask, and, incidentally, may I say I do not think the Noble Lord was fair to the Committee a few moments ago when he made no reply at all to a few questions put from this side? He simply moved the Closure, knowing that he had a number of votes in the Committee to support him. The question I wish to ask is, will the tribunal, supposing our Amendment is turned down, be entitled to assess the damages or compensation to a sufficient amount to cover the cost of substantiating the claim? My fear is that we are going to be tricked by the Government in connection with this Bill. I say that deliberately, because I understood this Bill is to provide money payments by way of compensation to people who have suffered as a consequence of the action of the Government. But when we came to the House last night we had members of the Government telling us that all the Bill meant was that the tribunal would have power to assess the amount of the compensation, without any power to say when it is to be paid. We may have a change of Government. If we get a Labour Government in power we shall pay, but we are not willing to trust the Government of the day to honour any pledges they might give, and we want to insist that these words shall be included in the Bill to make the position clear. I cannot understand why the Government are resisting this Amendment. The law of this land, so far as I understand it, though I have no desire to be a lawyer, is that the worst, criminal is entitled to claim all the machinery of the Courts of Law. The State spends thousands of pounds at a time to defend a man, knowing all the time that he may be guilty of the deed he is charged with. Here are people who are not proved guilty, but who are innocent people, yet they must spend money out of their own pockets to substantiate a claim for compensation before this tribunal. I trust we shall have a little more courtesy from members of the Government than we had on the preceding Amendment.
The Leader of the Opposition has made certain strictures about this Government Amendment and has suggested that the drafting is so bad that it is very obscure. He is afraid I am quite wrong in my views as to what it may be. I would like to tell the Committee why I am speaking with such confidence. This Government Amendment is taken word for word from the corresponding provision of the Indemnity Act, 1920. Under that Section, ever since the Indemnity Act, 1920, was passed, the Court and the Board of Arbitration set up have been working, and they have no other power except that provided by the words of the section. They have been doing it for 2½ years, and I do not think I am taking any great risk when I say that the words give power. The hon. Member was some- what unduly harsh when he said I was expressing too confident an opinion. With regard to the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies), he said he hoped to get more courtesy from the Government. I would suggest that the best way to get it is not to say that you mistrust us. That is not an attitude of mind which invites a very conciliatory response. In regard to the Amendment, the thing would be done in the same way as was done by the Court set up by the 1920 Act, namely, there would be a sum awarded by way of compensation and an additional sum awarded by way of costs.
4.0 A.M.
I am sure the Attorney-General will accept my word that I regret very much if I have given him to feel that anything I said was too harsh. I should be very sorry if he felt that of anything I said about him. But I may submit to the Committee that while it is perfectly true that the words he has taken in this manuscript Amendment appear in the Act of 1920, and up to now have never been questioned as not efficacious for the purpose, he is not entitled to say that the words really do carry out his intention unless this Court has had the matter before it and decided upon it. The Court may come on in a year or two, a month or two, or a week or two, but the moment the question is raised the Court has to decide what power it actually has under the Subsection. Then the. Attorney-General may find that the same strict interpretation of the English Sub-section will have to be carried out. Moreover, there is a slight difference between the two Courts. There is more need to protect applicants in this case in costs than in the other. I do suggest, and I cannot help feeling, that the Attorney-General must feel that a strict interpretation of this Sub-section would confine costs to the contents of the Sub-section itself, and I would suggest to him that a very simple alteration would make the whole thing quite clear. If he will take up this final part when he moves it from the words:
"The tribunal have power to award and assess such sums by way of costs as they in their discretion may think fit,"
and make that a Sub-section, and then come on with the evidence, witnesses and so on in a Sub-section, separating them and making it perfectly clear, then I think it will be possible to withdraw the Amendment. I think that would make the situation unassailable.
Earlier in this Debate I was drawing attention to the point that is now being discussed. If any consideration is to be given at all to people who have been proved to have been wrongfully dealt with why should they be put under the necessity of finding money to justify that which the law of the land has justified. They have been wrongfully deported. On the question of delay I notice the Attorney-General shook his head, but already I know of two men who were most likely to be called as witnesses, who sailed from Glasgow for Canada last Friday morning. If these witnesses are necessary to this particular case in Glasgow it means that these two men may be required to be summoned from Canada. That means delay, and all the time that delay is going on this Government, after inflicting injury upon certain members of our community, now adds insult by asking them to stand in for a sum of money. Why should men and women who had been carrying on their everyday duties for years be lifted from their sphere of life, taken to Ireland, then found to be wrongfully deported, brought back, everything destroyed, and yet they are compelled to find the money to state the claim on the top of the fact that they have been wrongfully deported and the law of the land is on their side? It is characteristic of the loose manner in which this Bill has been drawn. Here you say that the tribunal shall have power to award and assess. That may be so in England, but in Scotland we always assess before we award. I am surprised that hon. Gentle men opposite, who are always saying they are fit to govern, cannot draw up a Bill of 20 lines. Imagine the carelessness in drawing it up, the lack of ability shown, when holes can be bored in it by Amendment after Amendment—
On a point of Order. Should not the hon. Member discuss the Amendment?
I think the hon. Member should keep a little more closely to the Amendment before the Committee. He is rather discussing the whole Bill.
If the hon. and learned Member from his store of his legal knowledge had helped to draw up the Bill, he would have assisted the Government instead of making stupid interjections and interruptions.
The hon. Member has referred to the cost of bringing as individual from Canada who may be summoned as a witness. I want to know from the Attorney-General whether this Bill will give him the power to compel a person to come back from Canada or from the Irish Free State to appear as a witness if his evidence is necessary to substantiate a case.
I have been watching, not in a critical way at all, but in a very friendly way, the position taken up by the right hon. Gentleman on the Front Government Bench, and I was rather inclined to believe, after the Leader of the Opposition had put his last point to the Attorney-General, that he had made such a strong case as to warrant the Attorney-General considering the very small point involved. The attitude of the Government is that they want to be fair to the deportees and give them everything they are entitled to get. Then what possible objection can there be to putting their intentions in such language that the poorest of the deportees can understand it? There happens to be one of the deportees in the division I represent. I know him fairly well. I do not suppose he is an angel, but he is as likely to be singing in the choir on the other side as any here. He is a very decent chap, but he is a poor man. A week after he was deported, the parish had to look after his children. He put his case into the hands of a lawyer who will expect some payment for the work he has done. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] I quite agree that the lawyers in this House are quite willing to give advice free, but the lawyers in the part of the British Isles from which I come are not inclined to give advice without payment. This man will be required to pay for the legal advice he has had. and the advice that will be necessary if he is to make good his claim for damages before this tribunal. He is only one of 110 deported. He is not in a position to pay the expense of bringing witnesses to satisfy this tribunal that he has suffered sufficient loss to warrant a reasonably large sum of money being given. I am quite willing to take it that now that they have been shown to be wrong the Government are willing to make amends. Let us make it clear how it is to be done. We have reasonable doubts. By a slight verbal alteration it might be possible to dissipate our doubts so far as this matter is concerned. It would be worth the Attorney-General's while to make some concession even to make clear his own intentions. I hope it will not be necessary for us to take a Division on this Amend-
ment, for, though I do not want to threaten, if you take a Division on this we will take a Division on a whole host of other things.
rose in his place and claimed to move , "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 174; Noes, 83.
Division No. 170] AYES. [4.17 a.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Furness. G. J. Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Galbraith, J. F. W. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Apsley, Lord Garland, C. S. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Parker, Owen (Kettering) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Goff, Sir R. Park Pease, William Edwin Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Greaves-Lord, Walter Pennefather, De Fonblanque Balfour, George (Hampstead) Greene, Lt-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y. N.) Penny, Frederick George Banks, Mitchell Gretton, Colonel John Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Barnett, Major Richard W. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Barnston, Major Harry Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Peto, Basil E. Becker, Harry Halstead, Major D. Privett, F. J. Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Raine, W. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Rankin, Captain James Stuart Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Berry, Sir George Harrison, F. C. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Betterton, Henry B. Harvey, Major S. E. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Hawke, John Anthony Remer, J. R. Blades, Sir George Rowland Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Reynolds, W. G. W. Blundell, F. N. Henn. Sir Sydney H. Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Hennessy, Major J. R. G Robertson-Despencer, Major (lsr'gt'n W) Brassey, Sir Leonard Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford) Bruford, R. Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Bruton, Sir James Hiley, Sir Ernest Roundell, Colonel R. F. Buckingham, Sir H. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Button, H. S. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Cadogan, Major Edward Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Russell, William (Bolton) Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Hood, Sir Joseph Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hopkins, John W. W. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Howard. Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hughes, Collingwood Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Chapman, Sir S. Hume, G. H. Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Clarry, Reginald George Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Shepperson, E. W. Clayton, G. C. Jarrett, G. W. S. Shipwright, Captain D. Cobb, Sir Cyril Jephcott, A. R. Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Skelton, A. N. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips King, Captain Henry Douglas Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Cope, Major William Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Stanley. Lord Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Lamb, J. Q. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Sugden, Sir Wilfred H. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Curzon, Captain Viscount Lort-Williams, J. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Lougher, L. Tubbs, S. W. Dawson. Sir Philip Lumley, L. R. Turton, Edmund Russborough Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Wallace, Captain E. Doyle, N. Grattan Margesson, H. D. R. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Edmondson, Major A. J. Mercer, Colonel H. Wells, S. R. Ednam, Viscount Milne, J. S. Wardlaw White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Ellis, R. G. Molloy, Major L. G. S. Winterton, Earl England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Molson, Major John Elsdale Wise, Frederick Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Wolmer, Viscount Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Worthington-Evans. Rt. Hon. Sir L. Falcon, Captain Michael Murchison. C. K. Yerburgh, R. D. T. Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Murnin, H. Fawkes, Major F. H. Nail, Major Joseph TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Flanagan, W. H. Newman, Colonel J. R. F. (Finchley) Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.
NOES. Adams, D. Grundy, T. W. Muir, John W. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Ammon, Charles George Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Phillipps, Vivian Barnes, A. Hardle, George D. Potts, John S. Batey, Joseph Hastings, Patrick Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hayday, Arthur Royce, William Stapleton Bonwick, A. Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Saklatvala, S. Broad, F. A. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Brotherton, J. Hirst, G. H. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Buchanan, G. Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) Simpson, J. Hope Burgess, S. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Sitch, Charles H. Burnie, Major J (Bootle) John, William (Rhondda, West) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Stephen, Campbell Chapple, W. A. Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Thomas. Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Thorne, W. (West Ham. Plaistow) Darbishire, C. W. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Wallhead, Richard C. Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Lansbury, George Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lawson, John James Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Dunnico, H. Leach, W. Webb, Sidney Ede, James Chuter Linfield, F. C. Wheatley, J. Edge, Captain Sir William McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Mac Donald, J. R. (Aberavon) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Foot, Isaac M'Entee, V. L. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Gosling, Harry McLaren, Andrew Wood. Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Middleton, G. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Morris, Harold Mr. Morgan Jones and Mr. Lunn. Groves, T. Mosley, Oswald
Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 81; Noes. 179.
Division No. 171.] AYES. [4.25 a.m Adams, D. Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield. Hillsbro') Hall. G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Phillipps, Vivian Ammon, Charles George Hardie. George D. Potts, John S. Barnes, A. Hastings, Patrick Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Batey, Joseph Hayday, Arthur Royce, William Stapleton Benn. Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Saklatvala, S. Bonwick, A. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Broad, F. A. Hirst, G. H. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Brotherton, J. Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) Simpson, J. Hope Buchanan, G. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Sitch, Charles H. Burgess, S. John, William (Rhondda, West) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Stephen, Campbell Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Chapple, W. A. Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Wallhead, Richard C. Darbishire, C. W. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford. East) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Lansbury, George Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lawson, John James Webb, Sidney Dunnico, H. Leach, W. Wheatley, J. Ede, James Chuter Linfield, F. C. Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Edwards. C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Foot, Isaac M'Entee, V. L. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Gosling, Harry McLaren, Andrew Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Gray. Frank (Oxford) Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Grenfell. D. R. (Glamorgan) Middleton, G. Groves, T. Mosley, Oswald TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Grundy, T. W. Muir. John W. Mr. Lunn and Mr. T. Griffiths.
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth. Drake) Button, H. S. Allen, Lieut. Col. sir William James Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Cadogan, Major Edward Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Berry, Sir George Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Apsley, Lord Betterton, Henry B. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester. City) Archer-Shee. Lieut.-Colonel Martin Birchall, Major J. Dearman Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Blades, Sir George Rowland Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Blundell, F. N. Chapman, Sir S. Ralfour. George (Hampstead) Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Clarry, Reginald George Banks, Mitchell Brassey, Sir Leonard Clayton, G. C. Barnett, Major Richard W. Bruford, R. Cobb, Sir Cyril Barnston, Major Harry Bruton, Sir James Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Becker, Harry Buckingham, Sir H. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Sell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Davizes) Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.) Cope, Major William Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Raine, W. Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Rankin, Captain James Stuart Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hood, Sir Joseph Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Hopkins, John W. W. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Curzon, Captain Viscount Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Davidson, J.C. C (Hemel Hempstead) Hughes, Collingwood Remer, J. R. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Hume, G. H. Richardson, Lt-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Dawson, Sir Philip Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Robertson-Despencer, Major (lsl'gt'n W) Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Jarrett, G. W. S. Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford) Doyle, N. Grattan Jephcott, A. R. Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Roundell, Colonel R. F. Edge, Captain Sir William King, Captain Henry Douglas Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Edmondson, Major A. J. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth Ednam, Viscount Lamb. J. Q. Russell, William (Bolton) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Ellis, R. G. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Samuel. A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Lort-Williams, J. Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Lougher, L. Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Falcon, Captain Michael Lumley, L. R. Shepperson, E. W. Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Shipwright, Captain D. Fawkes, Major F. H. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Simpson-Hinchliffe. W. A. Flanagan, W. H. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Skelton, A. N. Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Margesson, H. D. R. Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Furness, G. J. Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Stanley, Lord Galbraith, J. F. W. Mercer, Colonel H. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Garland, C. S. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Goff, Sir R. Park Molloy, Major L. G. S. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Greaves-Lord, Walter Molson, Major John Elsdale Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Tubbs, S. W. Gretton, Colonel John Morris, Harold Turton. Edmund Russborough Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Wallace, Captain E. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Murchison, C. K. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Halstead, Major D. Nail, Major Joseph Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Wells. S. R. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Harrison, F. C. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Winterton, Earl Harvey, Major S. E. Ormsby-Gore. Hon. William Wise, Frederick Hawke, John Anthony Parker, Owen (Kettering) Wolmer, Viscount Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Pease, William Edwin Worthington-Evans. Rt. Hon. Sir L Henn, Sir Sydney H. Pennefather, De Fonblanque Yerburgh, R. D. T. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Penny, Frederick George Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Perkins. Colonel E. K. Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Hlley, Sir Ernest Peto, Basil E. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Privett, F. J.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the word "internment" [" deportation and internment "] to insert the words
"or in respect of any act done for the purpose of carrying any such order into effect."
On a point of Order, I have handed in a manuscript Amendment.
I did not select it.
I think I am entitled to give some reason why my Amendment ought to be called upon. It deals with an entirely new subject, and I think I am entitled to call your attention to the fact that you told me you would call it.
I did not do that.
I went round to you, and asked whether I ought to write the Amendment out again. You said "No" you could read it: it was all right and it would come on after the Amendment of the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. N. Maclean). My Amendment deals with a subject which I have repeatedly raised and could get no satisfaction from the Minister. The subject has not been dealt with in any other Amendment.
It is quite out of order for the hon. Member to discuss the Amendment when I ruled that I do not select it. I am sorry that there should have been any misunderstanding between the hon. Member and myself as regards the selection of this Amendment. All I said was that I would consider whether I would call him.
I have sat in this House for a long time, and every time an Amendment has been ruled out you yourself gave the hon. Member an opportunity of explaining his Amendment and stating why it should be moved. There were three occasions during this discussion when Members have been allowed to state reasons why their Amendments should be selected.
When an Amendment has been handed in which I could not understand, it was necessary to ask for an explanation. This particular Amendment I do understand, and I did not select it.
On a further point of Order.
According to the Standing Order, the Chairman is not called upon to give any explanation. I must ask the hon. Member to accept my decision.
I am not challenging your right not to select any particular Amendment, and I accept your statement that there has been a misunderstanding between us. The point I am urging is that I am being treated differently from other Members who have had Amendments ruled out, because I am not given an opportunity to explain. Whether it is according to the rule or net I do not know, but I protest against your decision.
The hon. Member cannot discuss his Amendment on a point of Order.
I am entitled not to be misunderstood. I am not challenging you on the subject of whether you should make an explanation or not. I am challenging your right to refuse me what has been given to three other Members tonight, the right to explain why they wanted to move an Amendment. That is what I am challenging, and I protest against the differentiation of ruling in my case.
I think that the Amendment which I propose does carry out the intention of the Bill. There are two particular matters in respect of which there is an indemnity. One is an indemnity for any person in respect of or on account of the issue of an internment order and also for the issue of a deportation order. I propose that there should also be an indemnity in respect of any act done for the purpose of carrying any such order into effect. I can assure the Attorney-General and the Lord Privy Seal that there is no intention in this Amendment to be in any way obstructive, and I suggest to the Attorney-General that it really is a matter for consideration.
I believe that my hon. and learned Friend does not mean this time to be obstructive and I propose to show my appreciation of that by accepting the Amendment.
Do I understand that, as the Amendment is accepted, we are precluded from discussing it?
Amendment to proposed Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the word "assessed" ["shall be assessed"], to insert the words
"on the principles on which damages would be assessed at common law."
By adding these words, those who are making their claims before this tribunal which is now to be set up will have just the same rights as they would have if they were bringing an ordinary action in the Courts at common law, so that the compensation which is to be assessed by the tribunal shall be assessed on the principles on which damages would be assessed at common law. The Committee will remember that, on the Second Heading of this Bill, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) said that as far as he was. concerned he would be prepared to support the Bill if the indemity to the Home Secretary and others who acted under his orders and on his behalf safeguarded the common law rights of the deportees in any compensation that was given. By keeping the common law rights alive, claimants before this tribunal will be able to get not only those losses which they have personally incurred—such as loss of wages or loss in business—but the further losses which would naturally be taken into consideration by a jury in assessing the damages under the common law.
May I ask the Attorney-General and my hon. Friend to consider this further word. We also feel strongly about this. I quite agree that the words "false imprisonment" would be inapplicable, because that would only apply to the first part of this Clause without the Amendment which the Attorney-General has just accepted, but if it is left in the way my hon. Friend desires, it will lead to great doubt as to what is the real measure of damages under this Clause, which may be limited to loss or damage in consequence of deportation and internment, and may therefore leave out all loss or damage to character. I would suggest to the Attorney-General that if he leaves out the words "false imprisonment" and inserts the word "trespass" it would cover all cases, including false imprisonment, and there would be no difficulty arising as to the deportation claims.
May I rise to a point of Order. In your judgment, does this Committee really grasp what we are now discussing? I want to submit to you, with all due deference, that there are not ten Members in the whole Committee who really know what we are discussing.
It is not within my province or my capacity to diagnose the brains of any hon. Member.
I want to submit that the way in which we are having Amendments submitted and, even with the best wish in the world, it is quite impossible to follow the business.
That is not a point of Order.
I ex pressed, when I moved my Amendment, my own personal view, that to try to insert the words of the character suggested would be more likely to lead to trouble than to assist. I rather think that from what is happening now, I was not very far wrong. I will accept the words in the original form with the words added at the end "excluding any statutory minimum." I want to make it perfectly clear. With that slight modification, I shall be prepared to accept the Amendment.
I want to ask the Attorney-General whether he will not be good enough to give some little more information on one point. These words that are now being added are by way of direction to the tribunal as to the manner in Which they are to try these claims from the legal point of view. There is one case that has been mentioned and discussed, and I want to know whether the Attorney-General will give me an answer as to whether this case will be covered and whether the tribunal will be able to deal with it. It is the ease of a man who has been deported, and whether in consequence of the deportation or not is lying at the point of death and may die before the claim can be made or before it can be decided upon. Will the heirs, widow or orphans have any claim at all or will the fact of the death of the claimant before the action has been decided deprive them of any compensation whatsoever? Many of us feel that it is a hard case, and I am quite sure the Government would not wish to leave it undecided or unprovided for. Can the Attorney-General assure the Committee whether under this point of direction the case of a claimant who died before his case is decided the rights of the widow or orphans will be covered?
I am not assure that the question had not better be put to the hon. and learned Member for Wallsend (Mr. Hastings). I believe the Committee is making a mistake in laying down limiting directions. I believe it would be much better not to put these words in, and it is for these reasons that I have not taken the respons-'bility of moving them. But if the hon. and learned Member moves in this form, I shall not object, though I think it may carry different results. I cannot guarantee the result by saying that the hon. Member's Amendment will have the effect of excluding or including particular claims. All I can say is it will have this effect—if the claim would have been maintainable without any action of indemnity being passed it would still be maintainable. I speak subject to correction of my hon. and learned Friend who moved the Amendment.
Amendment to proposed Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made to proposed Amendment: After the words last inserted, add the words "in a common law action for trespass excluding any statutory minimum."—[ Mr. Morris. ]
I give notice of an Amendment. In a word it says—
It did not escape my attention. Among the numerous Amendments handed in to me I have not accepted that.
On a point of Order. Will you permit me in a sentence to say why I handed in this Amendment? You may do this—
On a point of Order. The Deputy-Chairman has just ruled that a Member is not entitled to mention the question discussed.
That undoubtedly is so, but it is in the discretion of the Chairman to allow a statement by way of explanation.
On another point of Order. It is that the Deputy-Chairman definitely stated that there was no discretion, and I had no right. The Deputy-Chairman ruled distinctly that there was no right of explanation unless he himself did not understand the Amendment, which is quite a different thing from what you have just now ruled. All I ask is that there shall be consistent rulings from that Chair. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]
The position under the Standing Order is that the Chairman has an absolute right in the selection of Amendments, but, if he wish, he can call upon any hon. Member, before deciding the selection, to explain what it is he proposes.
5.0 A.M.
Last night when the Second Reading of this Bill was being sought by the Government, the Noble Lord gave a very definite pledge on the strength of which certain hon. Gentlemen voted for the Second Reading. The pledge was that these people ought to be secured in receiving compensation. I am reading these words from the Noble Lord's speech. Inasmuch as this Amendment secures nothing but the right of assessment, I desire to add the words "assess and award." I do that because it is the only way in which by this Bill a pledge given by the Noble Lord can be fulfilled, on the strength of which pledge a large number of votes were cast last evening.
Personally I do not think it would greatly strengthen the words of the Bill, but the hon. and gallant Member may move it.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the words last inserted, to add the words "and awarded."
Few Members can understand the farrago of nonsense we have produced by amendment and counter-amendment in the last two hours, and I am certainly not included in the list.
Would it not be in order to ask the hon. Member to speak to his Amendment?
When it was proposed to indemnify the Home Secretary for his illegal action, the feeling of the House was that, at the same time, we should compensate the victims of his illegal action. Last night the Minister gave a definite pledge they would be offered compensation. There is not a single word in this Bill as1 to awarding compensation. All it says is that they shall have a statutory right to assessment, and it will be in the hands of the Government, when they care, to bring in a Supplementary Estimate and give them their compensation. Therefore, I move that this tribunal, which has power to assess and award costs, should have power to assess and award compensation. If hon. Gentlemen are sincere in their desire to compensate the victims, they will support this Amendment.
I am anxious not to appear to go back on my pledge. If the hon. Member thinks the words "and awarded" will make it more complete, I accept them.
Amendment to proposed Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the word "tribunal" ["by a tribunal "], to insert the words "sitting in public."
The Committee will know that if you create a special tribunal, not known to the Courts of Common Law, there is no right for any one to attend and report what goes on. It is purely a special body, like an arbitration. I am sure that is not intended here, and I would ask the Attorney-General to say what his own view is about it. I do not think the Government intend this tribunal to sit in secret at all. It is not desirable that they should.
The right hon. Gentleman was right in saying that the Government do not intend and do not wish that this tribunal should sit in secret. I demur a little from putting in the words of the Amendment, for there may be times, as he knows, when a particular bit of evidence may have to be taken in secret, sometimes by reason of the witnesses, sometimes by reason of the particular matter dealt with. Therefore if you put in "sitting in public" you deprive the tribunal of the right which a Court of Law has of sitting in camera and you may be doing an injustice. For that reason I cannot accept the Amendment. I can assure the Committee and the public that there is no intention of setting up a tribunal which will have its sittings otherwise than in the fullest publicity.
Would it not be quite easy to add two or three words giving to the tribunal the right in special circumstances to hear portions of a case in camera? Perhaps it could be done on Report stage. It is a matter of considerable importance, because, if these cases are heard in secret, each person will have a grievance and no satisfaction will be arrived at at all. It is better that they should be held in public and surely the difficulty the Attorney-General had in mind could be met.
I rather hope the right hon. Gentleman and my learned Friend will not insist upon the Amendment in this form. If you say "sitting in public" you take away the discretion in particular cases to sit in private. If you suggest there are such particular cases, then I am afraid you will give ground for an application for sitting in private which nobody would otherwise think of making. The right hon. Gentleman is better qualified to judge than I am, as his experience is much longer, but my impression is that if you leave it without these words you are more likely to achieve the results we wish to achieve, while if you put in the words, you are likely to lead to misunderstanding. I am sure the Government would he glad to consider the matter, but there will be another opportunity before the Bill becomes law, and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will withdraw his Amendment on that promise.
I will gladly comply with the suggestion of the Noble Lord. It should be decided, however, in this House, for it is not quite the same thing in another. I agree to withdraw it on the Noble Lord's undertaking.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out the words "Lord Chief Justice of England," and to insert instead thereof the words "Commons House of Parliament."
My object in moving this Amendment is to afford some measure of protection to the people who are involved. If we are to pursue the course, as we are virtually doing under this Bill, of depriving these people of their rights at common law, it is very important that they should be guaranteed just treatment. Under the Bill as it stands one of three members is appointed by the Lord Chief Justice. I am not sure if we have confidence in that, for we have had the view the Government takes of judges in this country. Can we place implicit faith, then, in the Lord Chief Justice, whose office is a political appointment. This is largely a political question, and it is doubtful whether we are justified in expecting from him the same unbiassed judgment in making the appointment as we would get in other circumstances. I am asking here that Parliament should have the right of appointing one of the three members of this tribunal. After all, Parliament is the ultimate and chief repository of the power of protecting the rights of citizens. It is difficult to understand why we should abolish the rights of people at Common Law and hand over to a gentleman, who occupies this position because of services to a political party, the right to determine the treatment to which our citizens are subjected.
I hope the hon. Member will not press this Amendment. If he thinks for a moment, he will see it is a far less satisfactory solution than what the Government propose. We propose that the Lord Chief Justice, who, but for a phrase which, I hope, escaped the hon. Member unwittingly, is recognised by his office to be a person of great impartiality. I do not know of anyone I would rather entrust with the nomination of a Court. What does the "Commons House of Parliament "mean? It means the Government, and the Whips, with the Prime Minister, would nominate the Tribunal. I have great confidence they would do their best, but I am not sure that even if they selected the very same men as. were selected by the Lord Chief Justice, the country would have the same confidence in them, even if the appointment had been made without reference to any political question.
I believe very possibly an appointment made at this time by the House of Commons would not perhaps be very impartial. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] That was the meaning of the Noble Lord's speech, otherwise it had no meaning at all. Regarding the Noble Lord's further point that the Lord Chief Justice, by virtue of his office, was probably the most impartial man in England, I would say that unless I am mistaken the Lord Chief Justice cannot be called impartial in this case. Is it not the fact that the Lord Chief Justice is already committed to a view against the deportees; is it not the case that the Lord Chief Justice is a member of the Bench of the Divisional Court which decided against the deportees, and against whose decision the hon. Member for Wallsend (Mr. Hastings) and his friends had to appeal to a higher Court? How can the Noble Lord claim that the Lord Chief Justice is a most impartial man? In the circumstances, it is exceedingly unwise for the Government and the Noble Lord to push the Lord Chief Justice into a position of this kind. He is a gentleman of great legal eminence, but he has committed himself to a particular point of view and he is now to be appointed as the person who is to appoint the Tribunal. I cannot for the life of me see on what grounds the Noble Lord claims that he would be the most impartial selector of the Tribunal that can be got in the British Isles.
Suggest one yourselves.
That is not my province.
Put up an alternative.
We have put an alternative, and if hon. Members have suggestions to make it is open for them to do so. All I am concerned with is meeting the objection put forward by the Noble Lord to the proposal made by the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley). I am suggesting that, if the Government insist upon the Lord Chief Justice appointing the tribunal, there will be a feeling in the country that it will not be above suspicion of partiality.
I am bound to say that the hon. Member who has just spoken, and the hon. Members who share his view, have a view which is well founded, in that they object to the one judge who has already been associated with the transaction. It is said there has been no alternative. I rise to give a number. If it is to be a judge, we may have the Master of the Rolls, we may have the President of the Divorce Court.
The hon. Member has put his name to an Amendment which actually proposes the Lord Chief Justice.
I quite understand that the Noble Lord has been transported from the League of Nations for the debating ability he possesses. He accused me of having my name to an Amendment—an accusation which was entirely without foundation, and inasmuch as the Noble Lord has himself drawn an Amendment which he is unable to produce although he has given an undertaking in the name of the Government to do so, it is scarcely open to him at least to criticise any Amendment to which my name is attached. In point of fact, neither the Noble Lord nor the Attorney-General for the last two hours have been in any way acquainted with the proceedings that have been going on owing to the process of handing in Amendments on slips of paper. The Amendment introduced by the Noble Lord himself, to which it is true he did not attach his name, is one which has doubled the length of the original Bill.
After that digression I may be permitted to go back to the original matter, and that is that we desire that the person who in future shall deal with the situation shall be at least not one of those people who have already dealt with it, whether it be the Lord Chief Justice, the Attorney-General, or any other member of the Government or their nominees. I suggest, for instance, that if it is to be a judge, it might be the Master of the Rolls, the President of the Probate Division, or the President of the League of Nations' Union.
I would like to press this point. We have been told by the Noble Lord that it will not be safe to trust the House of Commons, instead of the Lord Chief Justice, to appoint one person, on the ground that the appointment would be, in effect, made by the Government, and that might be regarded as having a rather suspicious character. If I read the Government Amendment aright, the Government themselves are already arrogating to themselves the power to appoint two of the three persons. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO! "] The Amendment says:
"by a tribunal consisting of three persons, of whom one shall be a person who holds or has held high judicial office, appointed by the Lord Chief Justice of England."
Surely that means that only one is to be appointed by the Lord Chief Justice. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I maintain that my point holds goods and that the Government are proposing to appoint two of the three members of the tribunal.
If the hon. Member would put brackets where there are commas in the Amendment, the sense would be perfectly clear.
As the thing stands it does not bear that meaning.
I quite see that the words can be read that the three members are all to be appointed by the Lord Chief Justice, but there is really a rather curious result. One rather supposes, when you say that a member of the tribunal is to be a person who holds or has held high judicial office, that you would naturally select the Lord Chief Justice to make the choice. But if you are to have three persons appointed, of whom it has been suggested that one should be a business man, was it really intended that the Lord Chief Justice should select him?
Amendment negatived.
Question proposed, "That the proposed words, as amended, be there inserted."
On this Amendment I attempted to draw the attention of the Committee to the matter before. I remember the Noble Lord (Lord E. Cecil) then was on this side of the House denouncing in vigorous terms this sort of legislation at this hour. The Noble Lord is now making himself responsible for a Bill and for an Amendment which I venture to think will be an object of wonder and contempt to everybody when they see it printed. It will be useless as a judicial instrument to give compensation to the people who deserve it. What I desire to draw attention to is this. We have just passed an Amendment to the Amendment which says
"provided that any person who in pursuance of any such Order has been deported to Ireland."
What is "any such order?" It is defined in a little Amendment which has crept in. Such an order is an order as to costs and has nothing to do with Regula-tion 14B at all. May I direct the attention of the Attorney-General to the Clause as it now reads. Is it really fit that we should go on like this at six o'clock in the morning? This is the Rent Restrictions Act over again except that unfortunately it means that it will deprive persons some of whom I have no doubt are entitled to damages or compensation. It also makes the House of Commons an object of contempt. It is not in accordance with logic or common sense or the dignity of this House that the Report stage should now follow the Committee stage.
I wish to oppose the Amendment, in order to call attention to the fact that the Government and the Noble Lord and the Attorney-General have not carried out their pledge that every one of these deportees shall have exactly the same rights under this Bill as they would have if the Bill were not passed. Two or three different things have been said by the Government, and I do not wonder at it for nobody has been in a condition during the last five hours to know what has been put in the Bill. This particular Clause was brought forward for the purpose of carrying out the Government's pledge to do justice to these people who have been put on their trial, and because they have been put on their trial, according to the words of the Attorney-General during one part of that evening, will therefore in all probability be deprived of their right of compensation. I do not say that the getting of evidence against a man or a women after the deportation ought to be a reason why they should not have compensation. I have tried to move an Amendment which would have expressed exactly what I wanted, but the Deputy-Chairman ruled it out of order, and gave me no opportunity of explaining the Amendment. I am taking this opportunity of explaining to the Committee that this Amendment, which the Government have muved, and which the Committee in a minute or two will adopt, leaves out of account all these men who have been prosecuted, and penalises them in what I think is a perfectly outragous manner The evidence against them is beinf: collected now, and I make this statement knowing what I am saying, that in many instances the evidence against them will be manufactured. Their homes are being searched, their places are being ransacked by men whose whole aim in life obviously is to get promotion, and the only way to get promotion is to succeed in getting cases like these brought on successfully. It is a disgraceful thing for this British Parliament so to treat these men. In the end what is it that you are charging them with being? Only political offenders! They are not criminals in the ordinary sense of the word. They are no more criminals than Lord Carson, or is the Lord Privy Seal, or Lord Balfour, or the Ulster rebels were criminals. Sinn Feiners are not criminals in the ordinary sense. You are landing them by trying to get evidence instead of allowing them the same rights as you would have claimed for Lord Carson if he had been dealt with by the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) and his Government. You have given no pledge about that to-night.
The speech of the hon. Member is far outside the question as to whether persons criminally charged should have the same rights of compensation as the rest. He seems to have departed from his argument.
The point of my argument was that these men, against whom charges have been made-—in my opinion manufactured—are being robbed of a right which they have under Statute and which, in my view, is not affected by the fact that they happen to be guilty of some offence. My point is this, and I have tried to make it at least three times. It may be that these men are guilty of sedition; it may be they are guilty of the charges you are making against them. That does not justify you in taking illegal action against them and it does not exonerate you from seeing that they get whatever they are entitled to as compensation because of the illegal action you took against them. It is not possible for me to vote definitely against the whole of this Clause, because there is a good deal in it with which I agree. But I wanted to make that protest.
I want to say that the bon. Member is really under a misapprehension altogether. There is no intention to treat these men differently in any respect from the other men. They will be able to come and make their claim for compensation. Nothing in this Bill will exclude them. They will be naturally exposed to all the difficulties of making their claim that may not be in the way of others.
That is the whole point.
Where a man is of good character, he ought to have greater damages.
My point is that these men are of good character—just as, good as Lord Balfour and Lord Carson.
There is one point I want to make. Supposing a claimant dies before his claim is adjudicated upon, will his dependants or anyone on his behalf be able to prosecute that claim, notwithstanding his death? I should like a reply by the Noble Lord to this. A case might very well arise that a man might get £100 compensation. Is his family to be deprived of that £100 in case of his death?
I suppose we are just about to pass this Amendment, but before doing so, might I again urge that the situation of the Committee should be considered. In all seriousness, we have passed certain things last night and this morning which I am sure everybody who wishes to take his duty seriously would like to see in print.
If I may say so, this would better come after the Amendment has been disposed of. Before the Question is put it is inconvenient in the middle of an Amendment to discuss the proceedings of the Committee and the question of Adjournment. The Hon. Member should raise this after the Amendment has been carried.
The only thing I had in mind was this, that there is now going to be a break. We have a few Amendments to put, but everybody feels that the Committee would like to adjourn. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO, no! "] It is not a question of going on; it is a question of whether it is not possible, in good spirit, to arrange that this matter, when the Amendment is carried, should be put in print so that the House may have the opportunity of seeing it.
Question put, and agreed to.
Proposed words, as amended, there inserted.
I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
May I ask your ruling as to the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Simpson) and myself, which comes on immediately after the Amendment of the Government's which has just been passed.
The Motion to report Progress must be disposed of before that arises.
I am making this Motion to report Progress in order that we may get a statement from the Government as to what it proposes to do. We have passed Amendments to this Bill which we hope to see in front of us in print before we proceed to the next stage, not in any sense of conflict, but because every time this House has passed legislation of this kind in a hurry the House has repented it, and if it is at all possible to review our work quietly, it is the duty of the Government to give us an opportunity.
The position is undoubtedly a difficult one. The proceedings of the Committee have been of a very protracted character. They have been more protracted, perhaps, than some of us anticipated. Hon. Gentlemen opposite no doubt knew. I regret the necessity for an all-night sitting and the attempt to legislate hastily. I hold as strongly as I ever did that it is a most deplorable method of legislation. I am not going to discuss what ought to be done or what is the proper remedy. I feel that some means of avoiding all-night sittings must be found, consistently with the majority being able to carry its way in this House, which is the foundation of all representative government. The hon. Gentleman has asked what is the proposal of the Government with regard to the future progress of this Bill? The Government are very anxious to see this Bill become law at the earliest possible moment. Everybody in the House will recognise that it is of the greatest importance that everybody should know exactly what their legal rights are and that people should not go on piling up costs and legal expenses when they may turn out to have been spent fruitlessly. We are very anxious to get this Bill, and we hoped we could have got it to-night. Not only the protracted nature of the debate, but the course of the discussion and the difficulties of the subject have led the authorities of the House to point out to us that it would be very difficult for them to deal with the matter satisfactorily under the existing conditions. One can understand that with a long manuscript Clause of this kind there are considerable difficulties.
In these circumstances I venture to make this proposal, and I hope the hon. Members representing the Opposition will be able to assist us in this matter. I hope they will let us have the Committee stage now and we will then be enabled to obtain the Report and Third Reading on Friday next, without suspending the Four o'Clock Rule, for everybody recognises that is a most inconvenient thing, if it can be avoided. We will put it down for the first Order on Friday, on the understanding it is to be disposed of, Third Reading and all, by Friday afternoon. If I get that assurance, I will make no attempt to take the Report stage now and we can conclude the Committee stage, for there is practically no contentious matter left.
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman tell us how soon the reprint of the Bill in which it leaves the Committee is likely to be available, for it is rather important we should have the opportunity of seeing it soon and not at the last moment?
I am told it can be ready this afternoon, but in any case I will give my personal undertaking that every means will be taken to expedite it.
6.0 A.M.
The Noble Lord has made a proposal regarding Friday, but, before referring to that, I should like to say to the Noble Lord that his opening sentences were certainly not marked either by generosity or by justice. To suggest, as the Noble Lord did, that there is no blame for what has happened except on the other side, is really a very convenient exercise of his own memory. I can assure the Committee that there was no intention of keeping the House up. The beginning of this was due to the Noble Lord himself making a hopeless muddle of it. I would not have raised that if the Noble Lord had started his remarks with a little more accurate sense of what had happened. As to this proposal, I see no objection, as far as I am concerned, to Friday being given up to the Report stage and Third Reading of this Bill. Everything we can do will be done. I make myself responsible for it that the Government will get this Bill —the final Divisions on the Bill—without the suspension of the Four o'clock Rule.
My friends and I will equally co-operate in that. I would be particularly glad, as one way of helping to carry it through, if the Government were able, as I expect they will be, to put down early any change they themselves think desirable on the Report stage. I hope we will be able to confine the Report stage to a limited number of important points.
Motion to report Progress, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 2.—( Short title. )
This Act may be cited as the Restoration of Order in Ireland (Indemnity) Act, 1923.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
I would like to get a statement whether that extra Clause is going in?
It is only a question of drafting a good Bill. More has been made of it than I think it deserves. When we came to look at the drafting, I saw that the drafting I proposed was not satisfactory.
Does not Clause 2, standing as it does, not require some amendment?
Question put, and agreed to.
TITLE.
A Bill to prohibit the institution and prosecution of legal proceedings in respect of action taken under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Regulations.
I beg to move, at the end of the Title, to insert the words
"and to make provision as to claims for compensation by persons affected."
The Committee will realise that it is necessary, as a result of the Instruction which was moved and the effect given to that Instruction, to insert a proviso regarding compensation, to alter the long Title of the Bill, and I propose to do that by adding these words.
Amendment agreed to.
Title, as amended, agreed to.
Bill reported [Title amended]; as amended, to be considered upon Friday, and to be printed. [Bill 153.]
WAR MEMORIALS (LOCAL AUTHORITIES' POWERS) BILL.
As amended ( in the Standing Committee ), considered. Read the Third time, and passed.
SUMMARY JURISDICTION (SEPARATION AND MAINTENANCE) BILL.
Read a Second time, and committed to a, Standing Committee.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Tuesday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Nine Minutes after Six o'Clock a.m., Wednesday, 30th May.