House of Commons
Wednesday, June 6, 1923
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY (ADDITIONAL POWERS) BILL [ Lords ] (by Order).
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
I have been asked by the Leader of the Opposition, who is responsible for blocking this Bill, to say that he understands that negotiations have been entered into between the Port Talbot Chamber of Commerce and the Great Western Railway Company with a view to letting the Bill go through. He trusts that the Great Western Railway Company will do their best to give Port Talbot a railway station at the earliest possible moment, and, in view of the negotiations, is prepared to let the Bill go through.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a Second time, and committed.
Buchanan Trust Order Confirmation Bill,
Fraserburgh Harbour Order Confirmation Bill,
South West of Scotland Blind Asylum Order Confirmation Bill,
Considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill,
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 9) Bill,
Read a Second time, and committed.
Oral Answers to Questions
China
Outrages Against Europeans
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has any information as to how many British subjects were recently captured by Chinese bandits after derailing a train; and what steps are being taken to obtain their release and to prevent a further occurrence of such outrages in China against Europeans?
One British subject was killed, and five were captured, of whom three have since been released. Negotiations between the Chinese Authorities and the brigands for the release of the remaining captives are in progress, and according to the latest report from His Majesty's Minister at Peking on the 3rd inst. they appear to be proceeding satisfactorily. Military operations have meanwhile been suspended. The captives are being made as comfortable as possible by the despatch of supplies and are in daily communication with the military and consular representatives of the foreign Powers who have been sent to the spot to investigate and watch the situation. Measures to prevent the recurrence of such outrages are now being considered by His Majesty's Minister at Peking in consultation with the representatives of the other Powers concerned.
Opium
asked the Under-secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has been approached by any British representative in China with the suggestion that the reintroduction of opium into that country is necessary to the protection of China from financial collapse; and whether he can give an assurance that this method of assistance will not be countenanced by His Majesty's Government?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. There has been a great recrudescence of poppy growing in China and the revenues therefrom are utilised by local military leaders. The Central Government is not making use of this source of revenue, nor has any proposal that it should do so been brought to the attention of His Majesty's Government.
Is there any suggestion that there should be a reimportation of opium into India?
Not that I am aware.
Loans (Interest Default)
asked the Under-secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether representations have again been made to the Chinese Government with regard to its default in the payment of interest on loans made in good faith by investors in this country and to the Powers forming what is known as the Consortium on the attitude which for some time past they have seen fit to adopt to British financial interests in China?
His Majesty's Minister at Peking continues to take all possible action on behalf of British holders of the loans to which the hon. Member refers.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the revenue from the salt tax alone would give an ample margin to pay the interest on these debts, and that the Chinese are anxious to pay and it is only the action of the Consortium which prevents them doing so?
I think that that is a misconception.
Is it not a fact that for all practical purposes the Consortium may be looked on as dead?
I would not like to go so far as that.
Is it not the fact that the Consortium has vetoed any such arrangement as the question suggests?
Tobacco Monopoly
asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in seeking, in conjunction with other Powers interested in China, some means of averting imminent financial collapse, he will take into consideration the possibility of the establishment in China of a tobacco monopoly partly for the purpose of providing revenue and saving the financial situation and partly to counteract the desire for opium indulgence?
The Consortium representatives at Peking are at present examining the security available for meeting foreign obligations which are in default, and will no doubt consider the possibility, not only of improving existing sources of revenue, but also of suggesting new ones to the Chinese Government, in this appears feasible.
Peace Treaties
Bulgaria
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Bulgarian Government has given satisfaction to His Majesty's Government in its attempt to carry out the provisions of the Treaty of Neuilly since the ratification of that Treaty; and when and how it is proposed to carry out the obligations of the Allies to provide an outlet for Bulgarian trade to the Ægean Sea under Article 48 of the same Treaty?
In spite of the important concessions which have, since the ratification of the Treaty of Neuilly, been made to Bulgaria in regard to the application and execution of the reparation and military Clauses of that Treaty, there remain several points where the Allied Powers have still to complain of evasion or obstruction on the part of the Bulgarian Government. Very generous proposals, going far beyond the obligations in the Treaty, were made to the Bulgarian Government, but were rejected by them. His Majesty's Government, however, have not abandoned the hope that the undertakings in the Treaty may still be carried out by common agreement.
Does the hon. Gentleman say that we have assured Bulgaria an outlet to the Ægean Sea?
It was not specified in what manner the economic outlet that was promised was to be made. We still hope that the undertaking will be carried out by common agreement.
British Property (Northern France)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that British subjects who were owners of property destroyed by the Germans in Northern France during the War have been, and are, unable to get compensation from any source, whether French, German or British, although German nationals whose property was confiscated have been compensated by Germany; and whether the Government will give an assurance that in any modifications of reparations the interests of the above-mentioned British subjects will be safeguarded?
I am exceedingly sorry. I understand that the question was transferred from the Foreign Office to the Treasury. It has not reached the Treasury, and if the hon. Member will put it down for to-morrow, I will try to give an answer.
Russia
British Note
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the text of the British Government's Note of 29th May to the Russian Government was as published in the Press on 4th June last; when it will be laid before Parliament; and whether any reply has yet been received from the Russian Government, and what is the nature of this reply?
I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to the hon. and gallant Member on 4th June.
Are we to understand that the text as published in the "Manchester Guardian" on Monday is the correct text of the British Note?
If I were to answer that question I should, obviously, be going beyond what I have already said—that I am bound by an honourable agreement to give no information as to what has taken place.
Have we had any reply?
No reply has yet been received.
asked the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs if, having regard to the method adopted by the Soviet Government of publishing the contents of our official Note prematurely in this country and also of replying to it through a telegram to the Labour party, it is still considered possible to carry on diplomatic relations; and what steps the Government propose to adopt in consequence?
The telegram from Moscow to which the hon. Member presumably refers did not purport to have been sent by the Soviet Government; and as the publication of the Note referred to cannot with certainty be attributed to any responsible agent of the Soviet Government, the incident would not justify the discontinuance of our efforts to bring about a settlement.
May I ask whether it would be possible, except through a Russian source, for this information to have leaked out?
I really cannot say whether that is possible or not.
Is it not a fact that the Government's Note differs in text from the telegraphic Note sent from Moscow?
I do not know.
Is it not a fact that very often communications are published in the Press, purporting to be official, in relation to the British Government and other Governments? Is there anything extraordinary in it?
I do not know why hon. Gentlemen should suggest that there is. I have not suggested anything extraordinary.
Is it possible that the Papyrus just discovered in the vicinity of Epsom may throw some light on the subject?
Trade Agreement
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any representations have been made to His Majesty's Government in regard to the telegrams sent from the Italian representative at Moscow to the Foreign Office in Rome, to the effect that the British policy towards Russia is actuated by a desire to bring about the rupture of the Trade Agreement, with a view to causing a crisis in the internal affairs of Russia; and whether he will make a statement on the subject?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative: the second part, therefore, does not arise.
Is it not desirable that steps should be taken to remove the unfortunate impression made by the Italian telegrams?
I do not think that, I was going to say, any sensible person attaches any credence to them.
Has the Italian representative been withdrawn from Moscow?
Not so far as I am aware.
British Claims
asked the Prime Minister whether a resolution unanimously passed by a meeting recently held under the auspices of the Association of British Creditors of Russia has been brought to his notice, and what steps His Majesty's Government propose to take; whether it is now possible to inform the House if this question of compensation to British nationals was raised during the conversation between His Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and M. Krassin, and in the subsequent Note to the Soviet Government of Russia; and whether the Government is now determined that the responsibility for payment of adequate compensation shall be recognised by the Soviet Government before further negotiations are inaugurated?
It is not clear whether the hon. and gallant Member is thinking of claims for compensation for personal injury, such as those of Mrs. Stan Harding and Mr. Davison, or of the wider category of property claims, referred to in the resolution of the Association of British Creditors of Russia, which has been brought to my notice. I think there has been considerable confusion of the two categories, and I should like once more to make it clear that the former class of claims is alone involved in the present negotiations. Property claims, as I informed the hon. and gallant Member on the 30th of May, could not advantageously be introduced into their scope, but remain, as before, reserved for separate discussion.
Treatment of Jews
asked the Prime Minister whether any protest was made by His Majesty's Government against the policy of the persecution of the Jews during the period in which His Majesty's Government were supplying arms to the forces of General Deniken?
During the period in which a British Military Mission was in South Russia, that Mission had instructions to do all in its power to prevent the ill-treatment of Jews; and His Majesty's High Commissioner (Sir H. Mackinder), on his departure for Russia, took with him instructions to investigate and report on such excesses as were alleged to be occurring.
Royal Navy
Hard-Lying Money
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty why the hard-lying money paid to crews of certain vessels, which has been applied for on behalf of the crews of the vessels employed on special duties with the Murmansk patrol, has been refused?
The matter is under consideration.
Is there any dispute as to whether hard-lying money should be granted to these men?
Yes, considerable dispute.
In the conditions in which they have to serve?
Yes.
Shipwrights (Discharges, Chatham)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that a number of shipwrights, who have only just concluded their apprentice ship are being discharged from the Chatham dockyard; and whether it is possible to absorb these men in the employment for which they have been apprenticed in anticipation of secure work?
The discharge of the 25 ex-apprentices was due to the necessity for adjusting numbers in the different classes, the number of shipwrights having been disproportionately large. The ex-apprentices were selected for discharge in preference to older men of long service. I am sorry it is not possible to adopt the suggestion in the last part of the hon. Member's question.
Cooks (Tropical Pay)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether naval cooks employed in bakeries in ships steaming in the tropics are entitled to receive tropical pay; and, if not, will he arrange that they should do so?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and the Regulations will be altered to make this quite clear.
Leave (Special Trains)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that special trains are now provided for naval men with a view to rushing them away from the port of landing when returning home on leave without giving them an opportunity of making any purchases, and that this is affecting the trading community of Devonport; and can he see his way to restore the old practice by which these men, after being away for so long, may have the opportunity of obtaining such things as they require for their immediate use?
The special trains are run for the convenience of the men themselves and of the travelling public, but no man is compelled to travel by these trains if he does not wish to do so.
Is not some pressure put on these men to compel them to travel by these trains?
I am aware of no pressure. I imagine that it is in the interests of the men themselves to get home rather than to dally in Devonport.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the Royal Sailors' Rest was established partly to assist these men, and that the men are now debarred from taking their food in the Royal Sailors' Rest, with the result that the Royal Sailors' Rest is suffering very much materially?
Seeing that the majority of these men wish to leave Devonport as soon as they can, is there any reason why they should not make their purchases where they like in their own home towns?
Motor Drivers
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty to what classes of workpeople in the Royal Dockyards he compares the wages paid to motor drivers; and will he issue a comparative table showing the wages paid to these workers?
As the reply is of a detailed nature, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The reply is as follows:
The wages of typical classes in His Majesty's Dockyards are as follows: Per week. Motor drivers, i.e. men simply capable of driving men simply capable of driving 48s. to 54s. Motor mechanical drivers, i.e ., men who can do repairs as well as drive., men who can do repairs as well as drive 58s. to 62s. Shipwrights, engine fitters, boilermakers, founders, coppersmiths and smiths 58s. Ship riveters, iron caulkers, welders and drillers 56s. Engine drivers, stokers, crane drivers, hammermen, and various other classes of semi-skilled workmen 44s. to 54s. Labourers 41s.
The above rates include 17s. a week War increases.
French and British Fleets(Air Arm)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been drawn to the Bill proposed by the French Minister of Marine to provide for some 60 naval air squadrons for the French naval air fleet; whether this Bill, if carried into effect, will affect the relative standard of strength of the air arm of the French and British Fleets; and, if so, to what extent?
I understand that the new French naval air squadrons will consist chiefly of aircraft employed on local and coast defence, and as such connot be compared with the British naval air units, which are part of the Fleet.
Is it a fact that one whole division of 12 squadrons is to be attached to the French Navy?
I would like separate notice of that question.
Government Departments
Admiralty
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the number of officers, previously pensioned and retired, who are now employed in the Admiralty?
Fifteen pensioned and retired officers are now employed at the Admiralty, of whom one only draws retired pay in addition to the appropriate emoluments of the position which he holds.
Why is this gentleman drawing retired pay?
He is employed in a temporary position and it is not worth while consolidating the pay.
Are there not other Navy men who are not on active service, and are competent to do this work to whom this money would be a God-send?
As I have explained this only applies to one man.
Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman consider the case of one of the admirals?
He is not an admiral. He is a commander who is specially suited for the job.
An admiral surely can do a commander's job.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what is the nature of the work at the Admiralty which justifies an increase of 50 per cent. in the personnel of that Department as compared with the pre-War establishment?
The expansion of the Naval Staff and the development of all technical and experimental services due to the introduction of new weapons and forms of defence necessarily involve an increase in the staff of the Admiralty, which inevitably in all branches reflects the increasing complexity of modern warfare. Apart from the new duties, old duties are of greater complexity. As I stated in reply to a Supplementary Question by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland on the 16th May, the numbers are constantly under review, with a view to effecting reductions.
War Office
asked the Undersecretary of State for War the number of officers, previously pensioned and retired, who are now employed in the War Office?
The number of such officers at present is 31.
Should not these duties be performed by civil servants?
No, it is a long-established practice, which is both an economy to the State and of advantage to the officers themselves.
Is it economy to allow ex-officers to walk about the streets starving and in rags?
The first consideration must be the public service, and it is an advantage to have certain functions performed by what is a variety of civil servant with military experience which is of great value in the War Department.
Is the hon. And gallant Gentleman not aware that Earl Haig has said that quite competent and qualified military men are walking about starving, and why cannot the hon. and gallant Member consider their claim to work instead of people on half-pay?
Earl Haig has never said that such men as those could do the work as well as the men who are at present employed.
May not inquiry be made whether they are capable or not? You do not know whether they are capable or not. It is a libel on the men.
What would the Department do if one of these men were to die?
There are many applications.
Inland Revenue
asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that the Board of Inland Revenue have sent to the Inspectors of Taxes a letter on the rearrangements for taking over the D and E collection, in which the Board say that they will expect the appointment to be accepted or declined, but they will not be prepared to appoint separate collectors for D and E simply because the existing local collectors may not think it worth while to undertake the work in the changed conditions, and, if the appointment be refused in any case, immediate steps are to be taken to obtain nominations to fill the vacancy which will arise; and, as this peremptory manner of threatening the dismissal of public servants because they do not consider they are to be properly remunerated for additional work is not calculated to promote good relations and to secure a body of contented officials, will he appoint a small committee to consider the grounds of the widespread discontent among the local tax collectors with the new conditions?
The circumstances governing the transfer in 1921 of the collection of Income Tax under Schedules D and E from collectors of Customs and Excise to the local collectors in certain areas were explained in a reply given by my predecessor to the hon. Member for the Manchester Exchange Division (Sir E. Stockton) on the 18th April. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of that reply.
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether the reorganisation of the Board of Inland Revenue has yet been completed; if so, what steps have been taken during regrading to put into operation Clause 2 of the Resolution of the House on 5th August, 1921, as to equality of opportunity for women; what branches of Inland Revenue work previously closed to women have now been open to them; whether women have now been excluded from any branch in which they were employed on 5th August, 1921; and what steps have been taken to ensure that women have an opportunity of training for the higher posts in the Department irrespective of those posts which involve solely supervision of staff?
The reorganisation of the Inland Revenue Department is approaching completion. In filling vacancies on the reorganised staff, women have been and are being appointed to posts for which they have qualified at examinations held by the Civil Service Commissioners, in accordance with the arrangements adopted for the Civil Service generally. No women have been excluded from employment in any branch in which they were employed on the 5th August, 1921. Women appointed to posts in the Department have an equal opportunity with men for qualifying for promotion to higher posts.
May I ask whether in the Inland Revenue the higher posts will be open to the less senior officials by promotion, or whether the higher posts are being confined to those of specific educational qualifications?
Really I cannot carry all the Regulations in my head. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put down a question?
State Printing Works, Harrow
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will expedite the appointment of the Committee to inquire into the working of, and the desirability or otherwise of continuing, the State Printing Works at Harrow, so that the inquiry may proceed with the least delay possible?
I am taking steps to set up the Committee.
Will my right hon. Friend put this in order—at least, it is about time?
Really, I am a little surprised at my hon. Friend. I have been in office only about 10 days. I think I have got the consent of five or six gentlemen to serve on the Committee, and I hope to secure others.
It is because the right hon. Gentleman is doing so well that we expect so much.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the works are being conducted at a considerable profit by the State, and will he inform the House why any further inquiry is necessary?
I think it would be improper for me to prejudge the views of the Committee. Any evidence as to whether the works are being conducted at a profit or a loss will be before the Committee, and they will advise me when they have heard the evidence.
Unemployment
Benefit
asked the Minister of Labour how many applicants for unemployment benefit have been denied benefit for the six months ending 30th November last and the six months ending 30th May this year who have been informed they are not genuinely seeking full-time employment; and whether this number are included in the reduction on the Exchanges' registers week by week?
These statistics have only been compiled since 1st May last. Between 1st and 28th May, 1923, the number of claimants in Great Britain who were refused benefit on the ground that they were not genuinely seeking full-time employment was 6,959. They would be removed from the Live Register if they failed to maintain registration, but not otherwise.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when the committees return these men as not genuinely seeking employment they have to resort to the guardians? Is there no possible chance of an appeal against the decision?
There is an appeal, in the case of uncovenanted benefit, through the Minister, but, generally speaking, the Minister is guided by the views of the committee. It is true that when they are removed from benefit other sources of help are open to them, but I do not think it would be reasonable to suggest that those who have refused to seek full-time employment should continue to receive benefit.
Who is the deciding factor on the question whether men are genuinely seeking employment or not?
All the circumstances are taken into consideration in each case.
Has an instruction been sent out to the Exchanges instructing the committees that those who have been two years out of employment are to be considered as not genuine?
No.
asked the Minister of Labour whether a circular has been issued to the managers and advisory officers of Employment Exchanges in structing them to reduce by all means the number of people to whom unemployed benefit is being paid?
The answer is in the negative.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that William Carey, 24, Fairfield Street, Govan, has received no benefit since 15th March and has now been refused benefit on the ground that he was not genuinely seeking employment; that he handed three certificates from firms to whom he had applied to the Exchange officials, who mislaid them; and that he produced two others when he went before the unemployment committee; and whether, in view of the fact that evidence was produced by him that he was genuinely seeking employment, his case will be re-opened and benefit paid?
I am having inquiries made in the case, and will communicate the result to the hon. Member as soon as possible.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that applicants for unemployment benefit are being asked to obtain certificates from firms to whom they apply for work to prove that they are genuinely seeking employment; whether he is aware that a number of men in Govan who produced such certificates are still being refused benefit on the ground that they are not genuinely seeking employment; and whether he will issue instructions to have such certificates when asked for recognised or, if they are not to be recognised, to issue instructions to discontinue the request for the production of such certificates?
I am not aware of the circumstances in the cases referred to by the hon. Member, but I am having inquiry made and will communicate the result to him. I may, however, point out that the production of a certificate of the kind in question is not sufficient in itself to show that an applicant is genuinely seeking work; it is a piece of evidence to be considered with all the other facts in the individual case.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is the general practice to ask the unemployed men to get a certificate, and that it is impossible in many cases to get it, and could not a better arrangement be made?
It is, as I have said, a piece of evidence, and obviously a very important piece of evidence, if it is available. If it is not available the committees are entitled to take evidence of another character, and indeed it is proper that they should do so.
Are they not penalised if they do not produce a certificate, and it is not the sole evidence they can give?
Would it not be better for an arrangement to be made with the employer for him to give the men a certificate or a signed paper to show how he stands?
We rely upon the assistance of the public, including both sides, employers and workmen, in the administration of this great Act, and as a rule we do get the assistance in this direction from the employers. In regard to the other point I am not aware, though allegations have been made, of any actual case such as that mentioned by the hon. Member; if any are brought to my notice I shall be glad to look into them.
Insurance Fund (Receipts Andexpenditure)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he can give the amount of the receipts of the Unemployment Insurance Fund from employers' contributions, workpeople's contributions, and the State contribution, respectively, during the four months ended 30th April, and the amounts of the expenditure during the same period on benefits and administration, respectively?
The figures for the four months ended 30th April, 1923, are as follow:—
Contributions: £ Employers 6,100,000 Workpeople 5,300,000 Exchequer 4,300,000 Benefit 14,300,000 Administration (including cost of Employment Exchanges so far as attributable to unemployment insurance and charges borne on Vote of other Government Departments) 1,200,000
Commercial Motor Vehicle Industry
asked the Minister of Labour whether the Ministry of Labour recently sent a party of skilled British workmen to France for employment in French motor and locomotive works; whether it is proposed to send a further number with the same object; whether he is aware that the lack of employment in the British commercial motor-vehicle industry is mainly due to the unrestricted importation of commercial vehicles as war surplus and as the exports from protected countries; and whether he will support the proposal to put commercial vehicles on the same footing as private cars and cabs as regards import duty in order to assist in retaining skilled British workmen in this country rather than assist them to find employment abroad?
I understand from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour that up to the present 31 men have been sent to employment in France through the agency of the Ministry of Labour, 23 to railway workshops and eight to motor works; the question of sending further parties is under consideration. As regards the third part of the question, I am aware that representations have been made in the sense suggested, and as regards the fourth part, I regret that I am unable to adopt my hon. and gallant Friend's proposal.
With regard to the third part of the question, will the right hon. Gentleman state his views?
The third and fourth parts of the question together suggest that an alteration in our tariff system should be made, in order to prevent these commercial vehicles coming in, and I am bound by the decision of the Government not to make any alteration of tariffs at present.
Statistics
asked the Minister of Labour what is his present estimate of persons unemployed, or partly unemployed, in Great Britain; and what steps he is taking, or proposes to take, to deal with the situation?
The only figure I can give is the number of persons on the live registers of Employment Exchanges in Great Britain, which, on 28th May, was 1,221,300. The policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to unemployment has been frequently announced in this House during debate.
Has the right hon. Gentleman no estimate of the number of persons who are unemployed but not on the register?
It is very difficult to get the figure. I have dealt with the point several times in debate. The hon. and gallant Member knows as well as I do the difficulty of arriving at a figure.
asked the Minister of Labour the total number of unemployed males, females, and young persons registered in the County of London at the end of May; and how the figures compare with the same date in 1922?
The numbers of men, women, and juveniles under 18 on the live registers of Employment Exchanges in the County of London on 28th May, 1923, were 100,107, 23,223 and 7,407, respectively. The corresponding figures for 29th May, 1922, were 109,452, 25,576 and 6,498.
asked the Minister of Labour whether the reduction in unemployment is reflected in the returns of unemployment from the areas which furnished the most serious statistics on 1st January, 1923; and whether, if this is not the case, he will consider the desirability of dealing with the grave position of affairs in those areas which are admittedly entitled to preferential treatment?
At 1st January, 1923, the numbers registered as unemployed in the 12 areas showing the most serious unemployment amounted to 210,560. At 28th May, 1923, the numbers in those areas had fallen to 179,240. There was a reduction in each of these areas, except one, where the increase was not large.
I assume that the one area referred to is Barrow. The conditions there are becoming absolutely appalling. Can nothing be done to deal with it?
As a matter of fact, Barrow is not the case in point.
asked the Minister of Labour what reduction there has been during each of the last four weeks in the number of men and women, respectively, who were totally unemployed; and whether he can state the trades or districts in which the greater reductions have taken place?
Owing to increases during the last two weeks, the number on the live registers of the Employment Exchanges at the end of May was about 3,000 more than at the beginning. There was a net increase of 29,000 in textiles, chiefly cotton, and 10,000 in shipbuilding. In most other trades there was a decrease, or no increase, the most pronounced decrease being one of about 15,000 in building.
Six Days' Waiting Period
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the men employed by the City Glass Bottle Works, Ford Park Road, Canning Town, are standing off one week in five, and have been refused unemployment benefit for the week they are unemployed under the six days' waiting period Regulation; whether this Regulation was meant to apply to such a case; and if he could make arrangements for these men to receive unemployment pay, as otherwise they will be out of work for 10 weeks in a year without receiving any benefits?
Under the new rule governing the continuity of unemployment as laid down in the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1923, benefit is not payable for the weeks of unemployment in the case of persons standing off one week in five. After employment for three weeks or more a fresh waiting period of six days is invariably required. The rule is statutory, and I have no power to vary it.
Ministry of Labour Leaflets
asked the Minister of Labour whether he has received representations from Somerset and other areas to the effect that the leaflets issued by his Department in respect of covenanted and uncovenanted unemployment insurance benefit are too complicated to be understood; and whether he will take steps to remedy the defect?
I am not aware of any representations of this kind with regard to leaflets issued to the public. Certain of the local employment committees have suggested that the directions issued to them might be put in simpler language. I will endeavour to meet this request in the codification of these directions which is now being prepared; but I am afraid a certain amount of complication is inevitable owing to the wide extent of the unemployment insurance scheme and the various restrictions which are necessary in order to prevent abuse.
Building Trades
asked the Minister of Labour the total number of men employed in the building trades who were registered as unemployed in the County of London at the end of May; and can he give any details of the numbers in the principal trades, such as bricklayers, carpenters, and plasterers?
The number of men in the building trades registered as unemployed at Employment Exchanges in the County of London on 31st May was 13,728. I am circulating certain details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following are the details referred to:
Carpenters 945 Slaters 56 Plumbers 578 Bricklayers 278 Plasterers 155 Masons 100 Painters 2,293 Labourers of the foregoing 7,291 All other building trade occupations 2,032
Boilermakers' Dispute, N.E. Coast
asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that before the lock-out of the boilermakers on the north-east coast instructions were circulated by the employers' federation to their associated firms that in the event of their being approached by managers of Employment Exchanges as to the reason their workmen are unemployed the Employment Exchange should be informed definitely, in the case of members of the Boilermakers' Society, that the men are taking part in a trade dispute, and in the case of other men who are not members of the said society who have been suspended or paid off the Exchange should be informed that such men have been paid off in consequence of a trade dispute; and, as such information has acted prejudicially against the claims of workers on Tyneside, what action does he propose to take in the matter?
asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that, prior to the lock-out of the boilermakers on the north-east coast on 30th April, the North-East Coast Ship-repairing Employers' Association privately made arrangements to inform the local Employment Exchange officials that all members of the Boiler makers' Society in the district were now taking part in a trade dispute, and that all other men who were suspended or paid off because of the lock-out had been paid off because of a trade dispute; and if he will issue instructions to the Employment Exchange as to the manner in which such representations should be dealt with?
I have seen a copy of a circular issued on 3rd May by the North-East Coast Ship-repairers' Association. Employment Exchanges are bound to make inquiry from employers as to the reasons why an applicant for unemployment benefit lost his last employment, and I have no power to control the reply given by the employer to such inquiries. The applicant is safeguarded by the instruction that a copy of the employer's reply must be sent to him by the Exchange. Any counter-statement which the applicant or his association may wish to make is submitted with the employer's reply to the Insurance Officer, who, if he thinks it necessary, makes further inquiries before giving a decision. The decision of the Insurance Officer is subject to the applicant's right of appeal to the Court of Referees, and, in certain cases, to the Umpire. The procedure I have indicated secures, in my view, the impartiality of the Exchanges.
Is there any law which can be used to prosecute people who make false statements in reply to the Government in cases of this sort?
That is a question of law which I am not prepared to answer off-hand.
Will the Minister have these matters referred to the committee which was appointed under the Act to consider such questions?
I do not quite know to what committee my hon. Friend refers. There is no committee to deal with this question of employers' replies.
Trade Disputes
asked the Ministry of Labour whether the committee appointed to consider the payment of benefit under the Unemployment Insurance Act to persons rendered idle by virtue of a trade dispute in which they are not directly concerned has met under the presidency of the new chairman; and, if not, can he say when the committee will be called together?
The Trade Dispute Disqualification Committee has been called together twice, on the 15th May and on the 29th May, under the chairmanship of Mr. W. B. Yates, who was appointed to succeed the late Sir Thomas Munro. On the last occasion the Committee did not proceed with the matters before them, as there was only one mem- ber present other than the Chairman and the two official members. A further meeting has been called for 29th June.
Gun-Packing Trade Dispute,Preston
26 and 27.
asked the Minister of Labour (1) whether he is aware that the case of J. Dunderdale, of 16, George Street, Preston, who died in penury in 1920 as a result of the refusal of the Amalgamated Society of Carpenters and Joiners to pay benefits due to him from that society because in 1918 he had refused to leave his job in the gun-packing department of Dick, Kerr, and Company in order to join in a strike, was submitted to the then Prime Minister, and that the latter pledged himself, by letters dated the 27th October and 27th November, 1919, to communicate the result of the Government's deliberations how best to help this man as soon as a decision is arrived at; whether, since no communication has since been received although Dunderdale is now dead and his widow in poverty, he will state when he expects that a decision on the question will be reached; what hopes he can hold out in this matter;
(2) whether he is aware that in March, 1918, the representative of the Ministry of Munitions at Manchester promised, on behalf of the Government, that, if the men then employed on gun-packing at Messrs. Dick, Kerr, and Company's works, Preston, remained at work during a strike in the aircraft section of such company, they would be indemnified against loss; that this promise was repeated in August, 1918, at Preston; and that five of these men are to-day deprived of all sick-pay, pensions, and out-of-work benefit, in spite of having paid contributions for over 20 years, by the Amalgamated Society of Carpenters and Joiners expressly because of their action during the strike in question; and if he has now decided whether the promises made in 1918 will be kept?
The questions appear to relate to circumstances which arose five years ago and to have come under the cognisance of the Ministry of Munitions which has now been wound up. I will cause inquiry to be made into the cases referred to and will communicate further with my hon. and learned Friend.
Are we to understand that undertakings given by one Prime Minister are not continued by a subsequent Government, if they be personal pledges to a particular man?
That question assumes a set of facts about which I am not certain, because the matters are not within my cognisance, and I must make inquiries. I cannot presume that there was any pledge, but I will inquire into the whole of the circumstances forthwith.
Will the right hon. Gentleman, if necessary, obtain information on this point from the five men whose names I have given and who are still being victimised for their loyalty during the War?
Can the right hon. Gentleman use some influence with the hon. Gentleman who asked the main question in order that the hon. Gentleman might secure accurate information before he makes statements in this House?
I shall be very glad of assistance from any source to secure accurate information on the point, including the help of the hon. Gentleman.
Ex-Service Men
Training
asked the Minister of Labour how many disabled men are at present receiving training, the trades for which they are being trained, and the numbers allotted to each trade; whether any men are being trained as tinkers; and, if so, will he give the House the details of such training?
There are at present 13,655 disabled men receiving training in 332 different trades. Men are trained as travelling tinkers if they are prepared to work on their own account in the repair of household utensils, sharpening of knives, saws, scissors, etc., riveting china and repairing simple household machines, such as knife-cleaning machines, mangles or lawn mowers. The course is one of 12 months, during the first part of which the men are trained at the bench in the use of tinsmiths' and millwrights' tools, and in the latter part are given practice and instruction in actual repair work.
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how many of the men trained in these particular industries have become self-supporting?
I cannot answer without notice. All I can say is that the success of those men who have been trained in what might be called the smaller industrial avenues has been, on the whole, very encouraging.
Diamond Works, Brighton
32. To ask the Minister of Labour what is the present position with regard to the re-opening of the diamond works at Brighton and, in view of the fact that unemployed diamond cutters are at present costing the State some £70,000 per annum in doles and that there are many cases of distress amongst ex-service men in Brighton formerly employed at these works, can a definite decision be come to at an early date; and, if so, when this will be done?
I desire to ask this question on behalf of my hon. Friend.
May I remind the House that as a rule, on the second round, questions can only be asked on behalf of an hon. Member in his absence, and after a specific request by him.
Are you aware, Mr. Speaker, that there is a little understanding between myself and my colleagues that if one be away, and there be a second round of questions, the question is put on behalf of one or the other of us by one present?
That question was raised some time ago, and I gave an answer that it must be a specific request for the day on which the question is down.
Does that mean that we must get permission from the hon. Member the same day the question is on the Order Paper?
Questions are on the Paper in sufficient time for a communication to be made from one Member to another, and, as I say, there must be a specific request.
Can you make an exception to-day, seeing that it is Derby Day?
I did notice on my left that there was an unusual number of absentees to-day!
This question was discussed between my hon. Friend in whose name this question stands and myself, and, in effect, it is the question of both of us.
The Government, decided, subject to their obtaining the necessary powers from this House, to guarantee a sum of £150,000 on certain conditions to enable the Brighton diamond factory to be re-opened. Heads of agreement embodying the conditions were signed on Monday by the firm concerned, and steps are now being taken to prepare a formal argument and to obtain the necessary sanction of this House. In the interests of the ex-service men whom the guarantee is intended to assist, I hope that no time will be lost in completing the arrangements. So far as I am concerned, there has been, and shall be, no avoidable delay. I am surprised to find that the hon. Member does not yet realise that unemployment benefit is paid, not by the State alone, but out of a fund to which employers, workers and the State all contribute, the State being the smallest contributor of the three.
Small-Pox
asked the Minister of Health what is the authority for the statement contained in the Report of Dr. Bruce Lowe, issued by the Local Government Board in 1918, that out of 1,093 cases of small-pox in Germany amongst re-vaccinated persons 67 died; who is responsible for the issue of a pamphlet by the Ministry of Health, entitled Small-Pox Vaccination, for which a charge of 3d. is made; for what years are the figures given in the case of London, Paris, Vienna, and Austria; and will he have them brought up to date and statistics for Italy included?
My right hon. Friend is informed that the statement referred to in the first part of the question was made on the authority of German official statistics. He assumes that the pamphlet mentioned in the second part of the question is that entitled "Small-pox and Vaccination," which was issued in 1921 by direction of his predecessor, the right hon. Baronet the Member for West Swansea. The figures given on page 7 of the pamphlet for London, Paris, Vienna and Austria are, as stated in the pamphlet, the small-pox death rates for the years 1870 to 1881. I will send the hon. Member a statement giving such figures relating to these places and to Italy as are available for the years from 1881 onwards.
asked the Minister of Health what is the percentage of vaccinated and unvaccinated cases in the City of Leicester for the past five years; how many cases of small-pox have been notified for the city during this period; and the number of deaths, if any, from small-pox during the same period?
I assume that the first part of the question relates to the children born in Leicester during the past five years. Particulars are not yet available for 1922, but during the previous five years only 3·5 per cent. of the newly-born children were vaccinated, the bulk of the remainder being exempted from vaccination by reason of their parents or guardians making statutory declarations of conscientious objection. No cases of small-pox have been notified in Leicester and there have been no deaths from that disease during the past five years.
asked the Minister of Health what was the age of each of the fatal cases of small-pox that occurred in the recent London outbreak; and whether the cases entered as doubtful as regards vaccination in the hospital register have been included by him in the unvaccinated class?
I will send the hon. Member statement giving the age of each of the fatal cases. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.
Restoration of Order Inireland Act
asked the Prime Minister whether the inquiry as to the Regulations made under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act has yet been instituted; who will make the inquiry; and what are the terms of reference?
Owing to the illness of the Lord Chancellor I have been unable to consult him on this subject, but I hope shortly to be in a position to announce the names of the Committee and the terms of reference.
Trade Union Legislation
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the strong feeling among Lancashire trade unionists and among the great majority of their representatives in Parliament in favour of repealing the Trade Disputes Act, 1906, Section 4 (3) ( a ) of the Trade Union Act, 1871, and the Trade Union Act, 1913; and whether he will consider the desirability of legislation next Session in order to give effect to this desire?
I would refer my hon. and learned Friend to the answer which I gave on the 19th April last in reply to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Newport (Mr. Clarry). I hope that the conference referred to may be arranged at an early date.
Will the right hon. Gentleman, as well as consulting the leaders of the trade unions on this question, also consult Members who actually represent industrial constituencies?
Will the right hon. Gentleman have an examination made of the Election addresses of the hon. and learned Member who asked the question and those supporting him, to ascertain how far they pledged themselves to this, before proceeding with any legislation?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the County of Durham was made the cockpit at the General Election on this question by the party of the hon. and learned Member for Moss Side Division (Mr. Hurst), and that Labour gained two seats for every one they had before the Election?
Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware that to go on with this question means interfering with the principle of tranquillity?
Cancer Research
asked the Minister of Health whether he will take steps to ensure that the scientific research efforts now being made in Britain in the direction of discovering the cause and cure of cancer are not hindered by lack of funds?
asked the Minister of Health if, in view of the fact that profound public anxiety has been aroused by the knowledge that nearly 15 per cent. of those living beyond 30 die from cancer, and that during the last three decades an alarming and progressive increase has taken place in the deaths from this disease, that not only has no cure been discovered, but also the cause and causation of the malady is still a mystery, he will endeavour to procure a large increase in the present inadequate subsidy granted by the Treasury for the furtherance and encouragement of cancer research; and will his Department take control of such research, so that it may be co-ordinated so far as notification and clinical information as to incidence are concerned?
asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the increase in the number of persons suffering from cancer; and whether any, and, if so, what steps are being taken by his Department to prevent the spread of this disease?
I will, with permission, answer these questions together and in reply refer to the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. Alfred T. Davies) on the 4th June.
Cement Prices
asked the Minister of Health whether in cases where a local authority is satisfied it can secure from abroad a satisfactory cement for road making and other purposes at a cheaper price than that quoted by the British cement trust it will receive payments from the Unemployed Grants Committee to which it would otherwise be entitled?
The question of the powers of the Unemployment Grants Committee in such a case as that referred to by the hon. Member is under the consideration of my right hon. Friend.
Will the Noble Lord ask the Committee to re-consider the relative advantage to the local authority, under the Unemployment Grants Committee, of getting a satisfactory cement at 46s. as compared with 59s. charged by the British combine; and will the authorities be penalised if they continue to go to the cheaper market?
These are, of course, elementary considerations which will be taken into account.
Are they before the Committee?
National Health Insurance
Panel System
asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the disparaging remarks about the panel system which are constantly being made by coroners and others who are brought into contact with the working of the National Insurance Act; and whether he will institute an inquiry with a view to remedying its defects or, if necessary, substituting some more satisfactory system?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply to a similar question by the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Jarrett) on the 16th May.
Does the Noble Lord propose to make any independent inquiry into the panel system, or to have any discussion in this House, before any further terms are agreed upon with the medical profession?
My right hon. Friend is independent and is always inquiring.
asked the Minister of Health of what use the records kept by panel doctors are, either from a scientific or other point of view, and what is the cost to the insurance funds; and is he aware that the fact that these records have to be kept stops many insured per sons, especially when suffering from certain diseases, consulting their panel doctors, and so allows these diseases to be much more serious owing to lack of proper treatment?
In reply to the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the Report of Sir Humphrey Rolleston's Committee which was presented to Parliament (Cmd. 836 of 1920). The keeping of records is part of the terms of service of insurance practitioners, and is not separately paid for. Great care is taken to preserve their confidential character, and my right hon. Friend has no evidence in support of the suggestion contained in the last part of the question.
asked the Minister of Health what has been the result of the revision of service of panel doctors under the National Health Insurance Acts which he recently announced; what change is to be made in the number of persons permitted to be on the doctors' panel lists; and what other changes are in view to meet recent allegations of the inefficiency of the system?
The first part of the question seems to indicate some misapprehension. The situation is that certain proposals for the revision of the terms of service of insurance practitioners based mainly on recommendations of the Insurance Consultative Council have been discussed with the Insurance Acts Committee of the British Medical Association, and that Committee have themselves put forward certain suggestions. All these proposals will be discussed this week at a conference of representatives of Panel Committees throughout the country. Pending the result of the negotiations, my right hon. Friend can make no statement as to possible changes in the service.
Is my right hon. Friend contemplating any improvement in this panel system, and taking any steps himself to make arrangements?
I have said that there is to be a conference.
Will a statement be made in this House after these conferences, so that we may know what remedy will be found for these evils?
I will convey that question to my right hon. Friend.
Benefits, Cardiff
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the Welsh Commissioners, Cardiff, are refusing benefits under the insurance scheme to members whose cards may not have been sent in in time, or may have been mislaid or lost, but who have made the necessary payments, evidence of which could easily be secured from the pay offices; and whether he will give instructions forbidding refusal on those grounds?
Claims for benefit under the National Health Insurance Acts from insured persons in Wales (other than deposit contributors) are dealt with, not by the Welsh Board of Health, but by the approved societies of which the insured persons are members, subject to the members' right of appeal in accordance with the rules of such societies. A member's title to benefits is dependent upon the receipt by his society of the requisite number of contributions, and in dealing with a claim for benefit a society is acting properly, and in accordance with the regulations under the Acts, in treating a member as in arrears until a stamped card is produced to the society as evidence of the payment of contributions and as the voucher on which alone the value of the contributions can be credited to the funds of the society.
Does not the Minister think the important part is the payment of the dues and not the loss of a card, and that that ought to be the deciding factor as to whether benefit should be paid or not?
I am afraid that in every business organisation the question of records must be of importance.
Dental Treatment
asked the Minister of Health whether, as ill-health of the workers is, according to the view of welfare supervisors, considerably attributable to neglected teeth, the Minister of Labour will consider the proposal of extending the national health insurance benefit for dental treatment?
The payment of the whole or part of the cost of dental treatment is included amongst the additional benefits which an approved society is entitled to provide for its members out of a disposable surplus declared on the valuation of the society, and several societies with a total membership of nearly 7,000,000 insured persons already make such provision. My right hon. Friend entirely agrees as to the value of this benefit in the interests of the health of the workers, and he hopes that under schemes arising out of the second valuation, which is about to take place, it will be made available for an even larger number of insured persons than at present. There are not, however, funds available for the inclusion of dental treatment amongst the ordinary benefits available for all insured persons.
Depositors and Currentaccount Holders' Association
asked the Attorney-General whether he has any in formation concerning the Depositors and Current Account Holders' Association to which many victims of the failure of Farrow's Bank contributed; whether he is aware that a number of subscriptions were collected and that no balance-sheet has been issued nor any Report made to these people as to how their subscriptions have been expended; and whether he will say if any action has been or will be taken by the Director of Public Prosecutions in the matter?
I am informed by the Director of Public Prosecutions, in whose Department the prosecution of Farrow's Bank, Limited, was conducted, that the association to which this question refers has in no manner come under his notice and that he is unable to furnish any information upon the subject referred to in the question, but that if the hon. Member will communicate any facts within his knowledge to the Director of Public Prosecutions, inquiry will be made.
Public Works (Tenders)
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he is aware that his Department is asking for tenders for public works in which it is stipulated that quotations for certain articles are only to be received from firms allied to to the Light Castings Association; and, as this will restrict competition and strengthen rings, will he give direction that such stipulation shall be withdrawn?
I am not aware of any such stipulation in connection with any contracts for my Department.
Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to send him some particulars?
I shall be very glad to have them.
Corned Beef (Armycontracts)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether the contract for which tenders were called on 3rd November, 1922, for return on 11th December of that year, for the supply of preserved corned beef for the Army was awarded to an American firm; if so, at what price; and what was the lowest tender received from a Dominion firm?
The contract to which the hon. Member refers was placed with Messrs. Armour and Company, Limited. With regard to the last part of the question, it is the invariable practice to treat contract prices as strictly confidential, but it may be stated that the price quoted by the lowest Dominion tenderer was about 20 per cent. in excess of the accepted price.
Will not more care be given to the examination of tenders?
Every care is taken to examine tenders, and I may add that it was with great regret that a recent contract for tinned meat could not be placed with a Dominion firm owing to the large extra cost which would have been entailed.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that all municipalities are compelled to publish their contracts and the names of their contractors, and why cannot the Government do the same?
Child and Maternity Welfare(Hornsey)
61 and 43.
asked the Minister of Health (1) whether his attention has been drawn to the reply sent by the Hornsey Borough Council to the Ministry's letter, No. 11 A 1,234/1,002 V, dated 12th April, 1923, in which it is stated that if the council keep within the amount which the Ministry will recognise for grant in respect of child and maternity welfare it will be impossible to carry on the work efficiency; whether, in view of their reply, he will reconsider his decision to reduce the estimate furnished by the council by £100;
(2) whether his attention has been drawn to the Hornsey Borough medical officer of health's report with regard to the necessity for extension of the borough ante-natal sessions; whether he will pay a grant towards the expense of extension; and, if not, whether he will state the reason for his refusal?
My right hon. Friend is aware of the report of the medical officer of health and of the letter from the Hornsey Borough Council referred to in the questions. The reduction of £100 referred to in the second question was made in the absence of any explanation of the purposes for which the sum was required. The council have now applied for approval of an extension of their ante-natal work. After consideration of the report of one of my right hon. Friend's medical officers, who has investigated the proposal, he is prepared to agree to an addition to the expenditure of the council for the purpose of antenatal centres.
Rating Assessment, Pontypool
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that there are 26 parishes in the Pontypool Poor Law Union; that in three of these parishes in the west of Monmouthshire the assessment of ratable value has been increased by 30 per cent. to 60 per cent.; that no increase has taken place in the other 23 parishes; that the overseers are finding it exceedingly difficult to collect the rates in the three parishes where the assessment has been raised owing to this unequal system of rating; and will he have the question thoroughly investigated by his Department so that this rating inequality can be amicably adjusted, if possible?
My right hon. Friend is not aware of the circumstances as regards the three parishes to which the hon. Member refers, but he will communicate with the assessment committee on the subject. I may add, however, that the Minister of Health has no power to give any directions to assessment authorities with respect to the assessment of property.
Will the Department send someone down to investigate the circumstances, and to see if they can bring the rival parties together?
I will consider that.
Metropolitan Asylums Board(Hospitals)
asked the Minister of Health how many hospitals for epidemic diseases are maintained by the Metropolitan Asylums Board; what is the total number of patients they will accommodate and how many beds were used during the last three years; what is the total expenditure of this body for the last three years; and what rate is paid by the London ratepayer for the cost of this board?
Fifteen hospitals for infectious diseases (other than tuberculosis and venereal disease) are maintained by the Metropolitan Asylums Board, and the number of beds therein is 8,779. The total numbers of patients treated during the years 1920, 1921, and 1922 were 40,705, 55,324 and 41,819 respectively. The total net expenditure of the board during the years ended 31st March, 1920, 31st March, 1921, and 31st March, 1922, was £1,872,013, £2,748,872, and £2,565,233 respectively. A rate of 9½d. in the £ has been levied to meet the expenses of the board during the current financial year. The hon. Member is no doubt aware that the provision and maintenance of hospitals for infectious diseases form only a part, though an important one, of the work of the board.
Middle-Class Houses
asked the Minister of Health whether he has received any information to show that a very considerable amount of middle-class house-building is now in progress by private enterprise; and whether, in view of the growing demand for building mate- rials, he is taking any steps to stimulate production and thus avoid delay under the national housing scheme?
According to returns received from 1,067 local authorities, 9,971 houses of a rateable value up to £26, 4,090 houses between £26 and £52, and 702 between £52 and £78 (up to £35, between £35 and £70, and £70 and £105 respectively in the case of the Metropolitan Police District) had been erected by private enterprise during the six months ending 1st March last. In addition, 8,480 houses containing five rooms or less, 8,668 containing six to eight rooms, and 545 containing nine to 12 rooms were in course of erection on that date. As regards the last part of the question, my right hon. Friend has no reason to suppose that the supply of building materials will not be equal to the demand.
Transport
Blind Travellers (Railway Fares)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport if he can see his way to effect the same arrangements with the railway companies for free or reduced travelling expenses for the civilian blind as now operates in the case of blind ex-service men?
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport if he has received any communications from Blind Persons Act committees, directly or through the Minister of Health, appealing to him to endeavour to arrange for the concession which it is reported has been given to the totally War-blinded pensioners travelling on business and accompanied by an attendant to be carried at half-fare rates by all British railway companies to be extended to all totally blind persons travelling on business accompanied by an attendant; and, if so, what action he intends to take in response to this appeal?
Communications have reached me, through the Ministry of Health, asking that the concession granted by the railway companies, whereby blind ex-service men, travelling for business purposes, and their attendants, are conveyed at half-fares, should be extended to all totally blind persons. I have no powers in this matter, and the10 railway companies inform me that, after considering it in conference, they regret that they cannot see their way to extend the concession.
Motor Drivers' Licences (Age Limits)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether he is aware that licences for motor bicycles and motor cars are granted to persons on attaining the age of 14 years and 17 years, respectively; and that no additional skill or experience is required to control a small car than a motor bicycle; and will he take steps to remove this anomaly?
The age limits referred to are laid down by the Motor Car Act, 1903, and cannot be altered without legislation. The Departmental Committee on the Taxation and Regulation of Road Vehicles reported that they had not sufficient evidence to justify them in recommending any amendment to these limits at the present time, but the matter will be one for consideration when general legislation to carry out the recommendations of the Committee is introduced.
In reconsidering this matter at some future date, as is apprehended in the reply, if the age is reduced, say, from the higher age to the lower age, is it not a fact that a small boy of 14 or 15 years of age could then be employed by someone else, and drive a motor-car which might be 26, 30 or even 40 horse power—
This speech should be kept for the Bill, when it comes along.
Foodstuffs (Natural Dyes)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been drawn to a request by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research made to the Leeds University to examine the question of the importance of natural dyes for foodstuffs; and if he will take steps to obtain a copy of such Report, if issued, for the benefit of Members of this House?
No request has been made to Leeds University to undertake any inquiry into the importance of natural dyes for foodstuffs; but a Committee of the Forest Products Research Board has under consideration the question of research into the production of natural dyes. If any research work is undertaken, the results will be published in due course.
Wireless Licences
asked the Postmaster-General on what grounds he has refused to grant an experimental wireless receiving licence to Mr. D. Dwyer, Cefn Forest, Pengam (Mon.); and whether these licences are granted to persons who may have their own set of instruments or whether, before such licences are issued, a set must be secured from the British Broadcasting Company?
Experimental wireless receiving licences are granted to all applicants who furnish evidence that they have a definite object of experiment in view and possess sufficient qualifications for the purpose. Mr. Dwyer does not claim any scientific qualifications. The question of the nature of the licence to be issued in cases of this kind is one of the matters now being considered by the Broadcasting Committee.
House Property (Income Taxassessments)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has received a communication from the owner-occupiers at Devonport disapproving of the proposed scheme of assessment of property on the ground that it unduly taxes the thrifty and penalises the working man at a time when wages are on the down grade; and has he been able to give consideration to the matter?
The primary object of the new assessment is to secure that persons in receipt of income from land and houses should pay tax on their actual income from that source. Any disapproval which may exist is, I think, due to a misapprehension, and as regards the particular class to which my hon. Friend refers, I would observe that in a very large number of these cases the various personal allowances and deductions which can be claimed for Income Tax purposes would operate to cancel either wholly or to a large extent the charge of tax under Schedule A.
Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly send that answer to the owner-occupiers at Devonport?
Certainly, but, perhaps, it would be better if I sent it to my hon. Friend.
British South Africa Company
93, 94, and 95.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) whether, seeing that successive Governments have accepted the recommendations of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, the Cave Commission, and the Buxton Commission in reference to the land question and the alleged administrative deficits of the British South Africa Company, His Majesty's Government is also prepared to accept these recommendations;
(2) whether, seeing that it is now nearly 10 years since the Rhodesian land case was submitted to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council and nearly five years since their Lordships made their recommendations dealing with the question of the company's financial claims, and nearly three years since Earl Buxton's Committee made a recommendation for carrying into effect the award of Lord Cave's Commission, he will take steps to see that the proposed valuation commission recommended by Lord Buxton's Commission is appointed without further delay in order to bring to an early conclusion this protracted question;
(3) whether his attention has been drawn to the interest created in Southern Rhodesia arising out of his statement that a Supplementary Estimate will be presented to the House and the assumption that, as nothing is said in the draft letters patent about financial aid, this statement implies that His Majesty's Government has decided to defray the Chartered Company's alleged deficits from public revenue; and whether, in order to remove these impressions, he is prepared to announce the purpose of this Supplementary Estimate?
His Majesty's Government are of course bound by the report of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council and the award of Lord Cave's Commission. Since the issue of the Report of Lord Buxton's Committee, the British South Africa Company have presented a Petition of Right which raises anew the whole question of their rights. His Majesty's Government have been considering whether it would be possible to make any arrangement which will result in the Company withdrawing their Petition. The provision to be made in the Supplementary Estimate will depend upon whether it is possible to make such an arrangement and upon the nature of the arrangement if made. As matters stand at present, it will be necessary to present an Estimate to provide for the advances contemplated in Section 51 of the Draft Letters Patent for the payment of compensation to the Company in respect of public works and buildings in Southern Rhodesia. As regards the question of the valuation of the lands, I cannot at present add anything to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. T. Griffiths) of the 20th February.
Brush and Broom Trade(Inspections)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that on or about the 14th February last the administrative committee of the Brush and Broom Trade Board (Great Britain) forwarded to him a communication in which they informed him that the committee considered it highly desirable that reports of all inspections made in the trade under the Trade Boards Acts should be furnished to the Trade Board, and that such reports should contain the names of the firms visited; that in view of the power of the Trade Board to take proceedings under the Trade Boards Acts the committee urged that the Trade Board should be furnished with this information; that no reply to this communication has been received by the committee; whether he will take steps to ensure that the information asked for is furnished to the Board since, without this information, the Board are not in the position to consider and determine whether the circumstances render it desirable that they should exercise the power conferred upon them by Section 17 of the Trade Boards Act, 1909, to institute proceedings to enforce the orders of the Board; and, if not, on what grounds the information is withheld?
As I informed the Trade Board last January, it is not the practice to supply Trade Boards with reports of this kind, and I feel sure that it would be undesirable to communicate to a body consisting of 30 or 40 representatives of employers and workers in the trade information as to the affairs of individual employers obtained by my officers under their statutory powers of inspection. I can assure the hon. Member that all reports which reveal infractions of the Acts are very carefully scrutinised and proceedings are instituted where I think that the interests of the workers concerned are best served by such a course.
Pre-War Dependence Pensions
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he will make it clear that his announcement with regard to pre-War dependants' and pecuniary need pensions means that present recipients of pre-War dependants' pensions may, if their circumstances justify such award, be granted pecuniary need pensions with the full assurance that no subsequent review of their cases will have, the effect of dis-entitling them to an allowance of at least 5s. per week?
I am glad to be able to inform the hon. Member that I have arranged, with the consent of the Treasury, that where a parent in receipt of a pre-War dependence or flat-rate pension falls into circumstances of need such as to justify the award of a higher rate of pension under the terms of the new Warrant, the parent will be awarded such pension with the full assurance that no subsequent review of the award of pension based on need will have the effect of disentitling him or her to draw the flat-rate pension previously in issue as the irreducible minimum of the pension payable to them. This will also apply to the pre-War dependence pension, assuming of course in either case that the original pension had been correctly awarded.
Would the right hon. and gallant Gentleman be good enough to explain whether that concession applies retrospectively to the pensions already granted?
I must ask for notice of that question.
Will it apply to all pre-War pensions?
It applies only to the pensions referred to.
Will that Question and Answer be published in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
Most certainly. We are very anxious that all the pensioners concerned shall know of this important concession.
Business of the House
I understand there is to be very shortly in another place a Debate on foreign affairs with special reference to the situation in Central Europe, in Germany, and our relations with France, and I should, therefore, like to ask the Prime Minister whether it is his intention to make a statement on the foreign situation to the House of Commons so that we may simultaneously, with another place, have an opportunity of discussing the subject?
I understand that the discussion in another place has been postponed, and I hardly think a Debate on this subject would serve any useful purpose at the present time. If, however, fresh circumstances arise which render such a discussion desirable, I would remind my hon. Friend that the Foreign Office Vote is still open.
May I just add one word? I do not see that there is any necessity why the discussions should synchronise, but if any question should arise of a statement of public policy being made, I agree with the view of the Leader of the Opposition that it would be desirable for a simultaneous discussion to take place.
I should like, with the permission of the House, to be quite clear. I am not at all concerned with the mere discussion in another place, but if in the course of that discussion the Government have to make a statement on policy, then I should have to repeat my question and ask that the statement should be made simultaneously here?
indicated assent.
May I ask the Prime Minister whether the Report of the Financial Resolution on the Agricultural Rates Bill will be taken to-night?
To-morrow night.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS,
That they have agreed to,—
Special Constables Bill, without Amendment.
Rent Restrictions (Notices of Increase) Bill, with an Amendment.
Restoration of Order in Ireland (Indemnity) Bill, with Amendments.
Amendments to—
Bootle Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
General Reversionary and Investment Company Bill [ Lords ], without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Southern Railway Company to construct a floating dry dock and other works and to acquire lands; to extend the time limited by certain Acts for the completion of works and for the compulsory purchase of lands; to abandon a portion of the East Southsea Branch Railway; to transfer to the said company the undertaking of the Lynton and Barnstaple Railway Company and to the said company and the London Midland and Scottish Railway Company the undertaking of the Somerset and Dorset Railway Company; and for other purposes." [Southern Railway Bill [ Lords. ]
RENT RESTRICTIONS (NOTICES OF INCREASE) BILL.
Lords Amendment to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 158.]
RESTORATION OF ORDER IN IRELAND (INDEMNITY) BILL.
Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 157.]
SOUTHERN RAILWAY BILL [ Lords ].
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
BILLS REPORTED.
Marriages Provisional Order Bill,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [ Lords ],
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Calne Water) Bill,
Reported, with an Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
Great Western Railway (Swansea Harbour Vesting) Bill [ Lords ],
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Selection (Standingcommittees)
Standing Committee D
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had added the following Member to Standing Committee D (during the consideration of the Agricultural Credits Bill and the Agricultural Rates Bill): Major Steel.
Standing Committee B
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee B (added in respect of the Mines (Working Facilities and Support) Bill [ Lords ]): Sir Berkeley Sheffield; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Houfton.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
Orders of the Day
Rent and Mortgage Interestrestrictions Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
The Bill before the House this afternoon is the third Measure of first-class importance which it has been my duty to submit to the House during the short period which I have held office. I do not mind admitting that this Measure has caused me more hard labour and anxious thought than the other two Bills put together. That does not arise through any consideration of the possibilities of political propaganda which this Measure may offer to the Members of the Opposition, or to my own personal position. My predecessor, who had no one to mark out the way for him, and who has suffered the fate of all pioneers, because he was a pioneer, has, nevertheless, done me the service of pointing out the particular spot in the hedge where the barbed wire was concealed, and, therefore, I am able to avoid that special gap. My difficulty arises owing to the conflicting nature of the interests that are here involved, and the fact that they are so intensely important to those who are concerned, and to the further fact that the whole subject is so closely interlocked with the question of the provision of new houses.
What is the position in which we find ourselves? On the one hand it cannot be denied that the prolonged existence of these restrictions has a tendency to scare off investors from property, and as was pointed out the other day in the Debate on the Housing Bill, the builder builds to sell, and he will not build unless he can see a prospective buyer in the market. The fact that he has not built, and that there is a shortage of housing accommodation in the country, is the very reason why a continuance of these restrictions is necessary. We seem to have got into a sort of vicious circle, and the problem before us is how to break out of that circle with the least possible hardship to those who are concerned.
There are two opposite schools of thought upon this question. One of them is illustrated in the Motion for the rejection of the Bill which stands in the name of the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson). Of course that Motion is strictly in accordance with the watchword of the hon. Member's party, which is "Wait and see." He proposes to keep on control indefinitely in the vague hope that some day or another the shortage of houses will disappear, and that then it will be possible to withdraw control without a dissenting voice. I cannot help thinking that if there was any reasonable prospect of the advent to power of a Liberal Government at an early date, he would be more anxious to get this question out of the way than he appears to be at the present time.
Then there is another school of thought, and they put forward what I may call a heroic measure. It is put forward by those who say, "Get it over; decontrol, if not at once, as early as you possibly can; make a clean cut of it and let economic forces come into play, and then private enterprise will begin to build houses again." I find myself unable to accept either of those views. I feel convinced that if control were indefinitely prolonged it would result in a sort of stale mate which would certainly check, if not altogether stop, the provision of new houses, and after a lapse of time we should find ourselves with a shortage aggravated by the increase of the population, and no nearer than we are to-day to decontrol, and the whole subject of rents would be even deeper in the slough from which we wish to raise it.
4.0. P.M
On the other hand, I am convinced that to attempt to make a clean cut of decontrol, even in 1925, would be found impossible when the time came. It would be said then, as it was said earlier this year, when it was suggested that one class only should be decontrolled, that the general dislocation of conditions and the hardship in individual cases would be intolerable. It is all very well to suggest to a man that an operation is the quickest way out of his trouble, and to say to him that, although he may have a bad quarter of an hour, yet he will be all the better afterwards. In such cases the nature and gravity of the operation have to be taken into account. If a man is advised to have a tooth out probably he does not think twice about it, but if it is a question of having his leg off he has to be quite sure that he cannot be cured in some other way. If a man is told that he has to undergo an operation which is generally fatal, he will never consent to it unless his position is absolutely desperate. To the majority of tenants decontrol is in the nature of a major operation. What they are afraid of is not so much an increase of rent, although nobody wants to pay more rent for his house or for anything else than he is obliged to, but what really throws him into a panic when he thinks about it is the prospect of being turned into the street without any prospect of finding other accommodation to which he can go. Bearing in mind these considerations, what I have tried to do was to find some method of gradually passing away from the present rigid restrictions to a state of things when it would be possible to remove them without inflicting any serious hardship upon anybody and without creating any serious disturbance. From the beginning I have recognised that to carry out that policy would require time and even a considerable time, and, although I recognise the great anxiety that exists among many people to see an end of restrictions at the earliest possible moment, yet I feel that the confidence of property-owners would be more readily given to a plan which does offer a reasonable certainty of a way out, even though that way be long, rather than to a promise of early deliverance which anybody can see is not likely to be fulfilled. Therefore, in this Bill I contemplate a period of no less than seven years during which control in some form or another will be continued. It will be seen from an examination of the Bill that the present Act is to be continued for two years, subject to certain modifications, and that then it is to be followed by a longer period, during which the tenant is protected against the worst danger of an eviction at the whim or to serve the cupidity of an unconscionable landlord. It is provided that that latter period may be shortened by Parliament if in the meantime conditions have changed so much as to make a longer continuance unnecessary. It would be a gross libel upon landlords to suggest that, as a class, they are more callous or more indifferent than other people. Many of them belong to the same class as the tenants them selves. Many of them have shown great forbearance—
You may speak for England, but you cannot speak for Scotland.
under very trying circumstances. There are differences between Scotsmen and Englishmen, no doubt, but there is a great deal of human nature in both, and I doubt if you would find any serious difference in this respect between them. It must be remembered that there are bad tenants as well as bad landlords. Tenants have not hesitated to take advantage of the special protection which has been given them to profiteer out of some sub-tenants and to be so careless of the property of their landlords as to lead to its grave deterioration. There are black sheep in every flock, and, on the whole, seeing that, if there were no restrictions, such great and almost unlimited powers would remain in the hands of landlords, it does not seem to me unreasonable to continue this limited form of protection until the housing shortage has been, at any rate, considerably reduced and the tenant once more has a fair chance of finding some alternative accommodation.
Let me turn to the first period, the period covered by Part I of the Bill, and to the modifications of which I spoke. I have based those modifications upon the recommendations of the Onslow Committee, which was appointed by the late Government and which was re-appointed by my predecessor in December last. The storm of criticism which was directed to the proposals of that Committee to decontrol various classes of houses at different times has rather diverted the attention of the public from the very valuable work which was done by that Committee and from the other suggestions and recommendations which they made, derived from the evidence which came before them, and which recommendations, I think, will be found extremely useful. The two I would speak of are to be found in Clause 2, and they are directed, first, towards loosening the present restrictions without thereby being likely to cause any serious hardship to any large class of people. Sub-section 1 of that Clause provides that when a landlord comes into possession of his House after the passing of this Act that house will come out of the Act, and I believe that the result of that provision will be largely to remove what has been described as a very great scandal, namely, the keeping of houses empty while the landlord is waiting for a purchaser. He does that because he is afraid to let, knowing that if he does he will not be able to get the tenant out, and therefore will not be able to sell the house. If that house comes out of the Act he will, of course, if he desires to sell and if he cannot find a purchaser at once, nevertheless let the house for a short term until he can find a purchaser, and, if he does not want to sell, then he can let the house at whatever rent that house will command.
The second modification, which is in Sub-section 2 of Clause 2, is not so much concerned with houses for the working-classes. It is designed to meet the case of a tenant who wishes to get security of tenure for a longer time than he could get under the Act, and it provides that a tenant and a landlord may enter into a contract under which the tenant will have the occupation of the house for a term which expires after the expiration of the Act. In that case, again, that house will come out of the Act; and the tenant, by paying an increased rent, will be able to get this increased period of security of tenure. It is a purely voluntary arrangement. The tenant need not enter into it unless he chooses, but, if he does choose— and I think he will in some cases—then the house affected will come nearer to the normal conditions to which we have got to approach. I think the provision will also do something to stimulate the building of new houses, and perhaps I need not add that every new, house that is built, of whatever class, does do something to relieve the general shortage of houses, and does probably free some other house for the occupation of some other tenant.
Before I go on to any other modifications, I think I might perhaps here say a word upon the question of rent generally. It will be seen that the increases of rent which are permitted under the existing Act are not altered in the present Bill. I anticipate that there may be some criticism upon that omission and that some hon. Members will say that the Bill ought to have prescribed an immediate decrease of rent. I considered that point very carefully, and I will give the House three reasons which persuaded me that it was not advisable to prescribe any decrease of rent during the two years that the Act is to be prolonged. First of all, by prolonging this Act we are giving the tenants security of tenure during the period of prolongation. That is a very valuable asset to the tenant, and it seems to me that it is not unreasonable to ask that he should pay something by way of compensation to his landlord who is deprived during this further period of the right to deal with his property as he likes. The second reason is that the extra rent which the landlord gets will be available for repairs. [ Laughter. ] I quite expected that laughter, and I am quite aware that some landlords in the past have not carried out their duty. I have a Clause in this Bill, as to which I shall say a word later, which is put in for the express purpose of putting pressure on the landlord who has not hitherto carried out his duty in that respect. It is of high importance to the tenant that these repairs should be carried out, and I do not think that it is advisable, bearing that in mind, that the income of the landlord should be pared down too closely and that he should be given the excuse to say that he has not the wherewithal to carry out the repairs which are so necessary. Then I am very anxious that nothing in this Bill should hamper or check the provision of new houses. I do not think it can be denied that a decrease in the rent of old houses would widen the gap between the rents of old and new houses, and, if it does that, it must necessarily have the effect of checking people who would otherwise be prepared to build new houses. Taking all those reasons together, therefore, I finally came to the conclusion that it was not desirable to disturb the present arrangements, but that it was better to allow the existing permitted increases of rent to remain in force.
I now come to another modification, which is of some considerable importance —the one which deals with the case of the single house owner. Under the existing Act, the landlord who desires to obtain possession of his house for his own occupa- tion can only do so if he offers to the tenant alternative accommodation
Why do you not build houses for them?
These are letters taken at random out of the many I have received, and they illustrate very clearly what it is I have in mind when I say I think the time has come for some relief to be given to these owners. [ Interruption. ] If hon. Members will allow me to make my statement—[ Interruption. ] If hon. Members wanted to go to the Derby it is not my fault they did not—
We do not want things of that kind said.
The Bill abolishes all the distinctions between different categories of houses. [ Interruption. ]
Hon. Members must not interrupt the Minister in this way.
Then why did the suggest we wanted to go to the Derby?
The Bill provides that if the landlord became the landlord after the 30th June, 1922, he will have to show to the Court that greater hardship will be caused by refusing to grant the order than by granting it. I shall be asked what about the tenant. This is one of the cases in which the interests of the tenant and of the landlord are absolutely in conflict. For my part I believe that in the vast majority of cases the owner's claim is paramount. Since I have seen certain criticisms upon this proposal and since it would appear that the critics have not studied the Act of 1920, I would like to call the attention of the House to the protection that is still given to the tenant even although this alteration is made. In Section 5 of the Act of 1920 —the Section which deals with restrictions on right of possession, it says that can obtain possession of his own house, to satisfy the Court that it is reasonable to give him possession. I do not want to weary the House with a multitude of details. I will only allude therefore to two more Clauses in the first part of the Bill, namely, Clauses 9 and 10, both of which deal with the question of furniture. Under the Act of 1920 the charging of a fine or premium as a condition of granting a tenancy was forbidden, but that provision has been to a considerable extent evaded in practice by not asking for a fine or premium, but by making it a condition of the tenancy that certain so-called furniture shall be taken with the tenancy and then an exorbitant price is asked for that furniture. Under the provision of Clause 9 of the present Bill the excess over a reasonable price charged for the furniture under such conditions is treated as a premium, and landlords who have demanded such an exorbitant price will not only have to refund the excess to the tenant, but will also be liable to a fine of £100.
Clause 10 is an attempt to deal with what I think is a very serious grievance. At the present time sub-tenants who take furnished rooms do not come under the provisions of the Act of 1920. They are protected to this extent, that they may not be charged more than a certain rent which is specified in the Act—I need not trouble the House with details—but unfortunately that provision has proved a dead letter, and for this reason, that since these furnished rooms do not come within the provisions of the Act the tenant who is asked an extravagant price for the furnished rooms dare not go to the Court to get his rent reduced to a proper figure, because he knows that if he did he would be liable to be turned out of the rooms altogether by his landlord. As a matter of fact I know of many cases where sub-tenants are paying as much as 15s. weekly for a room on the ground that it is a furnished room when it has nothing more in it than perhaps one old chair or a piece of linoleum on the floor. It is a very difficult thing apparently to draw up any provisions which will prevent that sort of thing going on. A very similar difficulty arises in the cases of blocks of flats. Under the provisions of the 1920 Act, where a tenant occupies a flat and where attendance is given and forms part of the rent, it brings the flat out of the Act, and it has been shown or represented that where there is a charwoman to clean the steps or a porter to carry up the coal that constitutes attendance, and so the unfortunate tenants of these flats have been made to pay an altogether extravagant rent for their accommodation. What we have done in this Clause 10 is to say that in future
Now I come to Part II of the Bill, as to which I anticipate there will probably be an even greater difference of opinion than there is about Part I. All the same, I am going to ask hon. Members to give it fair and impartial consideration and to free themselves from prejudices which we know are apt to be dear to the heart but which do not always conduce to wise statesmanship. It must be remembered that in Part II we have to consider, not the conditions which prevail to-day, but the conditions which will prevail two years hence. I do not think it is unreasonable to suppose that, in the interval between now and then, a considerable number of new houses will have been built, and that to that extent the situation will have been eased. It is true that we have always to consider the natural increase of the population, but we may expect some set-off against that if the schemes of emigration to Australia and other countries have come to maturity, in which case some part, at any rate, of this new population will not require to be housed in this country.
It is a fact that even to-day a great many landlords are not charging the full 40 per cent. increase, for various reasons. It may be that they know that the tenants cannot pay the full 40 per cent. That is probably the reason in many cases, and there may be other reasons. I do not think there is any reason to suppose that in two years' time they are likely to be less forbearing than they are to-day, and it is my firm conviction that, in a great number of cases, if not in the majority of cases, when the present Measure expires in two years' time, there will be no disturbance of the tenants and no increase in the rent. Of course, however, we have to bear in mind that that will not be so in every case, but that there will, undoubtedly, be cases where the landlord will desire to avail himself of the new freedom and opportunity which is put into his hands. What is going to happen then? He may simply desire to evict the tenant. He may have someone else whom he wants to put into the house, or he may simply dislike the tenant whom he has at that moment, and, of course, he may have very good reasons for disliking him. What is going to happen then? Before he can get possession of the house he will have to go to the Court, and if the Court is of opinion that the proceedings are harsh or oppressive, or even that it would inflict an exceptional hardship upon the tenant if an order for possession were made, then the Court may refuse to make such an order, or may suspend the order for a sufficient time to give the tenant a reasonable opportunity of looking round for some alternative accommodation.
I suggest that no proposal could be found which is fairer than that to both landlord and tenant. Of course, however, the landlord may have another purpose in view. He may say to himself, "This tenant has been a long time in my house, and has been paying me a rent far less than I could have got had it not been for the restriction. I know that he wants to stop in the house, and now is the opportunity for me to get a little of my own back." Accordingly, with that view, he might say to the tenant," Either you must get out or you must pay me, say, double the present rent," or something very high. But a tenant, under the provisions of this Bill, could refuse to pay that excessive increase in rent, and in that case the landlord would have to take him to the Court to get possession of the house. The Court could examine into the whole of the circumstances of the case, and they might say to the landlord," What you are asking is altogether exorbitant and unjustifiable, and we cannot sanction it; but, in view of the character and situation of the house, and the sort of rents which are being obtained for similar houses in the same locality, you are justified in asking such-and-such an increase in the rent, and, if the tenant is willing to pay that increase, then we are not going to give you the power to turn him out." Again I say that, if we are ever to get away at all from the present conditions, what fairer method could you have than that for protecting the tenant against an unscrupulous or unreasonable landlord?
It will be observed that in Sub-section (4) of Clause 12 there is an allusion to reference committees being established by the Minister of Health, and in Clause 14 it is provided that the constitution, jurisdiction, and procedure of these committees is to be such as to be prescribed by regulations, those regulations being subject to the sanction of Parliament. Not unnaturally, a good deal of curiosity has been aroused by this novel proposal, which is, purposely, somewhat vaguely outlined in the Bill. Some considerable time will elapse before there will be any need for action under this part of the Bill, and during that time conditions may change very considerably. I have not, therefore, thought it wise at this stage to define too closely what was meant by these reference committees, but I think the House will expect that I should give, at least, some broad indication of what was in my mind, as to both the composition and the functions of these committees. I do not anticipate that in any case the committees will be wanted everywhere, but it is, I think, possible that, especially in large towns, the work which would fall upon the County Courts, particularly at the beginning of the working of this part of the Act, might be very heavy, and it may, therefore, be very desirable that they should have provided and attached to them some additional machinery which will take off their hands part of the drudgery and routine of the work, and which should enable them to give quicker decisions.
That, however, is not really the most important part of the functions which I have in mind for these Committees. I am a great believer in settlement by agreement, and it has seemed to me that, if a Committee could be constituted on which there would be, say, one representative of the landlords' association— or interest, if there were no association—and another representative of the tenants' association, with, perhaps, some third person who was not connected with either, it was very possible that they might be able to agree among themselves as to what was the fairest way of settling this vexed question. I am informed that there have, in fact, been working in certain places voluntary arrangements of this kind, and that, although it seemed hardly possible at first, nevertheless, when the tenants and the landlords came to sit together at the same table, they found that it was much easier than they had supposed to arrive at a settlement which seemed fair to both and with which both were satisfied. It, therefore, seemed to me that it would be very possibly desirable to give this system a somewhat more extended trial, and to set up committees constituted in something like the way I have described, to assist the County Courts in coming to decisions upon these questions of rent. There is one other function which I think might usefully be given to these committees, and that is the one stated in Sub-section (2) of Clause 14. I think it is quite possible, and, indeed, likely, that tenants and landlords who have been discussing the amount of rent which should be charged for a house, and find themselves unable to come to an agreement, may, nevertheless, agree so far that they are both ready to accept the decision of some third party in whom they have confidence. I propose that these committees should form that third party, and under Subsection (2) of Clause 14 questions of that kind, if it be desired by both the tenant and the landlord, may be submitted to the reference committees; and in that case it will be observed that the function of the committee is, not to consider and report to the County Court, but to determine the question for themselves.
Will the decision of the committee in that case be final?
Oh, yes.
Would my right hon. Friend be good enough to say exactly what would be the procedure in the earlier cases? Supposing that, in a case which goes before the County Court Judge, the committee are unable to reconcile the claims of landlord and tenant, will they simply report to the County Court Judge that they have been unable to settle the matter, or will they make to him a recommendation as to what his settlement should be?
If they can come to an agreement among themselves, then they would make that a recommendation to the County Court, and I have very little doubt that the County Court would accept it. If they are unable to come to any agreement, then, I take it, they would be unable to make any recommendation, and it would devolve upon the County Court Judge himself to make the settlement and give the decision.
The right hon. Gentleman has said that where both parties have agreed to refer the matter to the committee, the committee can decide between them with statutory effect; but supposing that they do not agree to take the matter before the Reference Committee, what will happen then?
If they do not agree to take it before the Reference Committe, it will not go before them, but will go to the County Court.
That is with reference to Clause 14, and not to the earlier Clause?
Yes; the two things must not be confused. The procedure under Clause 14 is quite distinct, and has nothing to do with the procedure under the earlier Clause.
I understand that, if they cannot agree about the rent, and desire to lay the matter before the Reference Committee, the Reference Committee decides between them; but, supposing that they do not decide to go to the Reference Committee, does the matter go to the County Court?
It would only go to the County Court if the landlord takes proceedings for recovery of possession. There is only one more Clause to which I think I need make any extended reference, and that is Clause 13. I have often been struck by one fact when I have been talking with dwellers in slums, and that is that the grievance about which they talked to me was, not that they lived in a slum, not that they had no garden, or that the atmosphere was grimy, or that the houses were packed too closely together. The burden of their grievance has always been that their house was in a rotten condition and that the landlord had done nothing to it for ever so many years. I do not believe that any Member of this House has any sympathy for the bad landlord, who does not recognise that he has a responsibility towards his tenants in return for the rent he gets. If the landlord carries out that responsibility, then I say he is entitled to get a fair rent, and I do not believe that any tenant would object to paying it; but it does not seem to me right that a tenant who is in a bad house, which is not kept in proper tenantable repair, should nevertheless, while he is waiting for the sanitary authority to come in and serve the notice upon the landlord, have to pay the same rent for that house as he would if the house were in perfect condition. It is not even fair to the good landlord, who, because he has a conscience, is doing his duty, since he is getting a return for his money far less than his neighbour who is callous, and whose only thought is to get as much as he can from the property without paying any attention to the repairs which he ought to do. It is in view of those considerations that I have introduced this new proposal which is contained in Clause 13. The tenant, in future, will be able to go to the sanitary authority and get from them a certificate, if it is justified, that his house is not in a reasonable state of repair. That certificate will state what repairs are required to put the house into reasonable repair, and then the tenant can go to the Court, and if the Court is satisfied, by the production of the certificate or any other evidence they may require, that the house is not in proper repair and that the condition of the house is not due to the fault of the tenant, the Court can reduce the rent— and hon. Members will observe that there is no limitation of the amount of reduction that can be made—until the repairs are properly carried out.
I believe that, in practice, that Clause will be found to put right an old wrong and that in it tenants will find some compensation for the loss of those privileges which they have enjoyed under the Rent Restriction Acts but which when this Bill becomes operative they will to some extent be deprived of. [ Interruption. ] There is also a Clause in the first part of the Act; but this Clause comes in after the expiration. I put this Measure before the House as an honest attempt to find a fair and reasonable way out of difficulties which are, I believe, as great as ever confronted any Minister in my position. I am not so foolish as to suppose that the Bill will be acceptable all through to any section of the House, but on the other hand I believe every party will find in it some bright spots, and I am of opinion that no one could introduce any Measure which would receive a unanimous welcome from all sides. I trust the Bill will be accepted to-morrow in principle, and that when it has been subjected to such Amendment as may be found desirable and necessary in Committee, it will in due course find its way to the Statute Book.
I beg to move to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words: v. Bryde Bill, and the Attorney-General, I think, was moved by our appeal. It could not be accepted in the crude form in which we put it forward, but something ought to be done in that direction, and I congratulate the Government on having adopted that suggestion in a way which I hope will be extremely efficacious in protecting the unfortunate tenant, who dwells in a house neglected by the landlord, against the very real oppression to which, notwithstanding all the restrictive legislation, he is still subject. That protection in the latter part of the Bill, Clause 14, I think, which comes in after 1925 surely ought logically to apply to all properties and not merely to those to which the principal Act has applied. By that time the right hon. Gentleman hopes a good many houses will be decontrolled, but I do not see why that same measure of justice and that protection against the minority of bad landlords should not be extended to the tenants in whatever houses they reside. However, that is a small point.
Let me come back to my justification for moving this Amendment. All the details of the Clauses of the Bill will have to be discussed in Committee and it would not be reasonable, it would not in fact be in accordance with the practice of the House, to move the rejection on Second Reading merely on account of detailed Amendments which seem to us to be necessary. But if you look at the general character and the principle of the Bill, the right hon. Gentleman would explain that it is primarily and substantially a Bill to continue the period of control for a further two years, with protection afterwards. If that were the real character of the Measure, certainly none of us would object to the Second Reading. We might discuss the character of the modifications proposed, but on the ground of the continuation of control clearly we have no objection at all. We think the period of control must be extended, and extended further than the right hon. Gentleman proposes, but on the principle we are at one. I think we are entitled not merely to consider the provisions and the principle of the Bill, but also what will be, in our judgment, the substantial effect of it when it is put in operation. I want to acquit the right hon. Gentleman of any wish to mislead the House, or indeed to cut away the principle of control by its acceptance, but, after all, we can only judge by the Measure as it comes before us, and I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman has not really adequately realised the extent to which his Measure introduces decontrol almost at once. Whilst on the one hand the Bill proposes to extend control for another two years, on the other hand it affords so many opportunities for houses to go out of control from the very day it comes into operation, and in increasing numbers, in all sorts of different directions that long before 1925 comes round an enormous proportion of the houses to which the Measure purports to extend control will, by virtue of the very provisions of the Bill, have passed out of control altogether. Therefore I think I am justified, in spite of the right hon. Gentleman's intention and purpose, in describing the Bill as a Measure, not to extend control for a period of two years, but as a Measure for enabling an enormous proportion of the premises to which it applies to pass out of control promptly and in increasing numbers without any adequate justification and without any sufficient protection for the tenants of those houses. Consequently, in my view it is a Measure for decontrol, and not a Measure for continuing control.
I want to justify that statement by an enumeration of the new ways in which houses are to pass out of control by this Measure. When I first read the Bill I was appalled at the extraordinary variety of ways by which houses could pass out of control. That impression is a little misleading, because in various Clauses the Bill repeats the old loop holes while stating the new ones. I am leaving out of account, as far as I can, all the old loop holes, and I want merely to call attention to the new ones one after another, because it is the accumulative effect of the whole of them together of which we have reason to complain. First of all, any one of the nine million houses which are probably under control at this moment passes out of control instantly as soon as the landlord recovers possession. That is to say that as soon as it is empty, or the tenant can be got rid of in any way legally, the house instantly passes out of control for ever. I do not say there are not good landlords. I believe the majority are good landlords.
You have not had much experience of them.
But there are some landlords who are not quite so good as the others, and what is much more important, a very large proportion of the properties which are most affected by the Measure are not managed by the landlord at all but by agents and factors as professionals, and whilst I do not want to bring any indictment against agents and factors, any more than against landlords, yet when a matter becomes subject to a professional organisation, when it is merely the custom of the trade, I am afraid humanity passes out of sight. As a matter of fact the professional agent may very properly say he is not entitled to be philanthropic with the landlord's property. He must get all he can according to the law. If a house becomes vacant and the landlord is able to resume possession the property is at once free from restriction. He can obtain a very much larger rent straight away. He can sell the house for a very much larger sum straight away. There are people who are speculators in these small houses. It means that a house for which they have paid £400 they can perhaps sell for £600 immediately they can get it out of control. What a temptation to use every means to bring about the ejectment of the tenant. What a temptation to use every means to get the house vacant and for the landlord to resume control. Just consider how it works mutually—as it were, double action. There are cases at present of people who, although they are very reluctant to give up their tenancy, have to move away to another town. At the same time there are people moving away from that town. There is a certain amount of movement, and houses are found vacant in the last town, and the amount of movement which takes place allows for certain vacancies to occur. But under this Measure, if it is not amended in Committee, both those houses will become vacant and will pass out of control, and the difficulty of getting accommodation in another town will become intensified by this Measure, and the temptation to house speculators somehow, or other to get into possession and to turn out the tenant will be very considerable.
5.0 P.M.
Notice the next case, which the right hon. Gentleman expounded as one of the bright spots of the Measure—that is, the tenancy granted beyond 1925. That is a plausible case. If I were a tenant I should like to get a tenancy extending beyond 1925, and possibly I should not realise that by taking a tenancy which merely extended one day after 25th June, the house passes out of control at once. A premium or consideration for this tenancy is made legal. It will pay the landlord to bribe the tenant to accept a twelve months' or a two years' tenancy, because in that way after two years the House immediately passes out of control. A large number of houses are passing out of control, and these are not necessarily held on seven years, 14 years, or 21 years' leases. They may be held on a three years' lease or a temporary tenancy. Take the third case, which is only a small one, licensed premises will pass out of control at once.
Does the hon. Member object to that?
I will reserve what I have to say about that until I have enumerated the various cases. The fourth case is that of a nuisance by the tenant. This is an old case, and it is extended. Now the nuisance may be committed by the lodger or the lodger's children, or it may be committed by the sub-tenant or the sub-tenant's children. The landlord can claim possession if the house is required for himself or relatives living with him or someone in his employment, or for any child he may have. It seems to me that it would be almost profitable to be the child of a landlord. I might be a prodigal son, and in order that my father, the landlord, might get possession of his property I might come home, ostensibly to be put in the house. He could use me, if I were that prodigal son, over and over again to get possession of 100 houses, one after another, if he owned them. If I had six brothers—[ Interruption. ] It can be done as the Measure now stands. [HON. MEMBERS:" No! "] I say that it can. There is no requirement that the hypothetical son in that case should actually enter into possession of the house and reside or continue to reside there for more than 24 hours, or for a short period. If I were the landlord of 100 separate houses of which I wanted to get possession and I had one son, of course, I might think twice before I used that one son in turn to get possession of all these houses. [ Laughter. ] Quite so. I should have some common sense, but my point is that it is opening what the Treasury would call a very dangerous door.
There is a further extension, in that the landlord may get possession for someone in his employment. Under this Bill it is to be for someone engaged or to be engaged by him. Again, the man need not necessarily enter into occupation. The landlord has merely to allege and prove that there is someone who is going to be engaged by him and for whom he requires the house. When the man comes he may say: "I do not like the house;" but the fact will remain that the landlord will have got possession there was a reasonable provision inserted in the existing Act which enabled a local authority or a statutory undertaking which happened to be the owner of a house to get possession if they wanted occupation in pursuance of its undertaking. It was very reasonable that if a railway company, for instance, happened to be the owner of a house that it should not be kept out of occupation if it needed the house for the purpose of its undertaking. Under the enlarged provision in the new Bill, the local authority or the statutory undertaking can get possession even if it is not the owner. The security given by the existing Act is taken away if the local authority, being the owner of a house, chooses to say that it wants the house to be vacated in order that it may be the better able to carry out its statutory undertaking. That seems to me to be another very dangerous door.
Finally—and this is the eighth new loophole—where premises are required, not merely when premises are mortgaged and possession is required for the purpose of security of the mortgage, which is a provision of the old law—for the due administration of any estate or trust, the owner can get possession. There may be some reason in some exceptional cases for that course being adopted, but I would point out that this is a very dangerous door through which the tenant loses the security, which the existing Rent Restrictions Act has conferred. I have enumerated eight new loopholes through which the tenant will lose his protection. Inevitably, with the temptation which is offered to the landlord to get possession in order to escape the restrictions of the Act, these eight loopholes will cause a large and an increasing number of premises to pass out of control. That is why I say that this Bill is essentially a Measure for decontrol, and for decontrol at once of a large proportion of the premises to which it applies. It is not a Measure for continuing control, but a Measure for providing a large measure of decontrol immediately and increasing in quantity.
I do not think that that is the worst feature. What is even worse to my mind is that these new loopholes, and the character of the provisions which the right hon. Gentleman, through what I might call a laudable simplicity, has suggested in the Bill, cannot fail to lead to a great deal of chicanery. A certain proportion of the people who are owning and managing the bulk of this small property to which the greater number of the cases I have referred to will belong have in the past not been free from that kind of chicanery. They are dealing with help-lees and ignorant tenants. They are themselves possibly not very well acquainted with what they can and what they cannot do under the law, and when you put upon these people these complicated provisions which offer to them the opportunity of making a considerable pecuniary profit, you cannot escape from the conclusion that this Measure will lead to that kind of thing, and is even more objectionable than the fact that it will lead to so much decontrol.
I have not yet recited all the detailed objections which entitle me to say that the principle and kernel of this Bill is one for decontrol rather than for the continuance of control. Therefore, I am justified in asking the House to reject it on Second Beading, or, at any rate, to decline to affirm its enormous decontrol. I should like to point out, if I may do so without offence, the ingenious artfulness of the manner in which this is done. We have had previous attempts at partial decontrol and at gradual decontrol. The intentions of the former Minister or, perhaps, of the Department, suggested a simpler Measure and a clean cut at an earlier date in regard to houses above a certain value. That was recognised by a large section of the population as objectionable, and disapproval was displayed in an unmistakeable way against the proposed Measure of partial decontrol. Now, more wise, the Department has laid before the right hon. Gentleman a number of separate provisions, which represent as large a measure of premature decontrol as was suggested by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor, but put in a more insidious way. Indeed, put in such a way that it has been possible for the newspapers to refer to this Measure as a happy Measure for continuing control.
Up and down the country millions of tenants are wrapped in security thinking that at last a Minister has come in who is going to continue their protection against eviction. Of course, no such incidents as Mitcham and Edge Hill are to be expected. It is our business to point out to this House, and in so far as we can to point out to the country, that if one million premises are passed out of control by these eight new loopholes in the next two years that will be as objectionable to the tenants of the 8,000,000 houses as if they had been included in a class for decontrol by one simple Measure. What is more, under the procedure of the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor one knew one's fate. Either one fell into the class below £60 or £70 a year or one did not. Under this Bill, as it now stands, the tenant will not have security. He will not know at any moment whether he may not come under one of the spikes of this eight-spiked harrow which the right hon. Gentleman is dragging across the field of his security. This eight-spiked harrow, with its eight new ways by which the premises may slip out of control, will not assassinate the tenant, but, at any rate, will destroy his peace at night and expose him to that eviction in regard to which he is in such terror.
Let us consider the provision about alternative accommodation. The existing phrase has been construed in some cases in ways which cannot reasonably be justified. Whether the fault be in the construction or the wording we do not need to inquire now. I ask hon. Members to notice the improvement which the right hon. Gentleman is conferring on all these millions of tenants. Formerly, the alternative accommodation had to be equivalent in rent and suitability. The right hon. Gentleman slurred over that point when he was expounding this Bill. Now it is to be, "Reasonably suitable to residential or other needs." That is quite a new phrase for suitability, but what about rent? The provision as to equivalent rent has been left out. I am not likely to be appointed at any time to the position of a county court judge, but if I had to decide on this Clause as it came before me as a judge, I should say that the House must have known the consequences when it left out all mention of an equivalent in rent, and inserted a new Clause that the alternative accommodation must be merely suitable for "Residential or other needs." I should say, "You have here a house which is admirably suitable for your residential and other needs, and although the rent may be 50 per cent. higher, the House of Commons meant to leave out that consideration."
Is the hon. Member aware that the majority of these applications for possession on alternative accommodation are decided by justices in Petty Session who exercise a free discretion?
I am sorry that the hon. Member interrupted me on that point, because he is lamentably wrong in his facts. By no means are the majority of cases heard by justices in petty session. Rural England, judged by population, is only a very tiny part of Great Britain. The vast majority of these cases occur where the justices in petty session do not officiate at all. Some hon. Members speak as if rural England was the most important part of England. Statistically considered it is a tiny minority of England. The proportion of these cases heard by justices in petty sessions is statistically insignificant.
Then there is the alteration in what is done for the owner of the house who wants to get possession. I have nothing to object to in an Amendment which would enable the owner of a house, who wants it for his own occupation and can show reasonable cause for it, to come into possession. But that does not necessarily mean the owner or any of his sons or relations living with him and all the rest of it. It is the owner himself, and should apply to the owner of one house and not to any owner, but apparently anyone who bought a house before 1922 is to have all these privileges, whether he is the owner of a whole street or not. Similarly if he buys a house after 1922—and he must buy it before or after—he will have this privilege, subject only to this, that he would not create greater hardship to the tenant than would be occasioned to him if he did not get possession. I cannot see how the tribunal will estimate the relevant hardships of the two cases. There will be a lot of difficulty about that, but I do suggest that here again is one more opportunity for decontrol. These are not fanciful objections. I hold in my hand a letter from one of the rather important tenants' associations, not quite so far away from the country which the right hon. Gentleman knows very well. It is from the Sparkbrook and the Sparkhill District Tenants' Association. They write to say they are against this Measure so far as they understand it. They want extended control. They want certain modifications and amendments which they deem necessary, but they are dead against the particular Measure which the right hon. Gentleman has introduced, for reasons which they give, and to some of which I have referred.
I have left myself no time to give the right hon. Gentleman credit for his bright spots. I have only mentioned one or two, but, at the same time, they are not the reasons why we are asking the House not to read this Bill a Second time. Nor have I dealt with Part II of the Bill. Why do I leave Part II of the Bill out of account? It proceeds on the assumption that control is going to cease in 1925. I am quite a new hand at this sort of political electioneering, but it does seem to me that, in the ordinary course of nature and under the British Constitution, 1925 may be getting somewhere near the date of a General Election, and if anybody believes in decontrol on the eve of a General Election, I must say that he is more sanguine and more simple even than I am myself. If that is the case, surely the right hon. Gentleman does not intend us to believe that control is coming to an end in 1925. Consequently, as Part II will not come into operation until that happened, I think that we may adjourn Part II. Of course, the right hon. Gentleman may have another view. He may think that his own tenure of office, and that of his colleagues may come to an end before 1925, and perhaps he is contemplating that it will be better to leave the problem to a Labour Government for them to grapple with it. Either way, I suggest that we can adjourn the consideration of Part II, but I do want to say, in conclusion, that I think that I am fully justified in my assertion that, although this Bill purports to be a Bill for the continuance of control, it does incidentally, by these new loopholes, provide necessarily for an enormous amount of immediate decontrol and, what is worse, it introduces a great deal of chicanery and almost fraud in connection with decontrol.
I think that that is not as good a way, if you want decontrol by classes, as the clean cut suggested by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor. At any rate, the feeling of insecurity which it must cause will extend from the bottom of the scale in slum, tenements right up to the £105 house which is the top house controlled. There will be no such clear definition as that certain houses are to come out in 1924 and others to remain in, but all will be exposed to insecurity. For that reason also we feel that we ought not to pass this Measure. The remedy is to let decontrol synchronise with the provision of houses. When houses are provided decontrol can take place, but until houses are provided decontrol cannot take place.
Are houses going to be provided? Does the right hon. Gentleman expect 100,000 houses to be provided each year under his Housing Bill when it gets through Committee? Probably he would say that no estimate can be made. I would remind him that after all some estimate has been made. For the Treasury must have come to some conclusion as to the amount which they are likely to be called on to provide this year. This being an appropriate day, I would not mind betting that they do not provide for 200,000 houses in the course of the next two years, nor 200,000 even with the optimistic hopes of the right hon. Gentleman that we are going to lose an enormous number of people by emigration, hopes which I do not share. But, even with those houses, they would not do more than provide for the increase of population at home. Consequently, the stringency of housing accommodation, which is greater now than it was five years ago, will, as far as I can see, be actually greater two years hence. The situation will not be appreciably alleviated. That being so, we ought not to proceed with a measure of decontrol, even decontrol in these partial and insidious ways, until the houses are in sight. For those reasons I move this Amendment.
I beg formally to second the Amendment.
I regret very much that the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Sidney Webb) has left the Chamber. I do not know whether he is aware that the sporting event to which he has referred was settled some time since. The hon. Member seemed to be under the impression that a very great number of houses were likely to be decontrolled under this Bill. I am inclined to think that he is either very sanguine or, may I say, very fearful on that point, because although he pointed to what he called eight loopholes in the Bill, he did not point out that in every one of those cases the doctrine of alternative accommodation came in, and if he had experience of what transpires in the Law Courts of this country—I am not speaking for Scotland; I do not know anything about it— he would know that it has been exceedingly difficult, and is likely to remain so, to prove that alternative accommodation, really suitable both as regards rent and in other ways, would be forthcoming before the Judge who has to make the decision. It appears to me that his argument on behalf of the Labour party was explicitly and definitely against any form of decontrol whatever. The whole of this argument went that way, even when he speaks of a man with 100 houses or 100 sons—I am not sure which—and the difficulty which he thought would be found in regard to the course which was likely to be followed in connection with obtaining possession of one of the 100 houses. The hon. Member's sense of humour, however, came to his relief. He thought he was pushing his objections a little too far because he was willing to assume that the Courts had some little common sense. That is the answer to much of his speech. I think that he has overdrawn altogether his fears and anticipations as to the number of houses which are likely to be decontrolled under the eight provisions to which he has referred. He entirely ignored those Clauses in the Bill which are favourable to the tenants remaining in possession of the house and to the tenants in general. He only referred to one of them very briefly. Clause 4, which deals with sanitary defects, or defects in the repairs to a house during the first two years of the Act, and Clause 13, which deals with the same thing in the period of five years after the first two years, are vitally useful to tenants who desire to retain possession of their houses, and are against landlords who do not fulfil their liability with regard to the question of repairs. I am not sure why the wording of these two Clauses differs so much. Clause 4, as to the suspension of increase of rent in connection with disrepair, for the first 2 years seems practically to put the sanitary authorities, and possibly a sanitary official, into something like a legal position, something like the position of a tribunal. I agree that the last five words "unless the contrary is proved" are helpful in the contrary sense to some extent, but according to this Clause prima facie immediately a certificate is obtained from a sanitary authority the Court practically has to accept it as definite.
indicated dissent.
My right hon. Friend shakes his bead. Perhaps he will tell us something definite about this point a little later. I may be wrong, and the five words to which I refer may be sufficient to bring the matter within the cognisance of the Court, where I suggest it ought to remain. If so, I have nothing more to say. But I want to point out that there have been many occasions in the past when the Courts have held, in dealing with this type of question, that the sanitary authorities have been in the wrong. It must not be thought that the sanitary authority or a sanitary official is necessarily right. I should be very sorry to see passed a Clause which, in effect would remove the power of the Court to have its own judgment upon the question. I am not a lawyer, but I prefer the wording of Clause 13. I am aware that this provision was probably put in because of the discussion by the House of a similar question when a previous Rent Restrictions Bill was being passed. I am entirely in sympathy with the aim of giving every proper facility to a tenant to defend himself against the payment of increased rents if a house is not put into repair. All I am urging is that a sanitary authority or official shall not be elevated into the position of judge.
The Attorney-General will watch that all right.
I am expressing a doubt whether that is so in the Bill. The learned Attorney-General will possibly satisfy me on the point, and the hon. Gentleman also. I saw a gentleman in the Lobby yesterday. He came from a large city in the North, and produced a sanitary notice, a very large form in duplicate, implying all the rights and privileges on behalf of the tenant of a house under the Act. And because of what? Because a sash cord had broken! It has been stated in evidence that the sanitary officer in that town has had instructions from his committee to issue a certificate, whatever the character of the complaint might be. I give that under reserve, but it is the information given to me. The point is, perhaps, of importance.
The hon. Member who spoke last did not refer to two other very important concessions which are given to the tenants under this Bill. There is the concession relating to the man who, having a small quantity of furniture, was able to charge a large premium unfairly. I am very pleased to see in the Bill a Clause dealing with that subject. It was very necessary. So is the following Clause, which provides for the case where some small matter of attendance, such as in fiats, was taken advantage of, or could be taken advantage of, under a decision under the old Act, in order to keep those properties out of the Act. As far as my knowledge goes, I do not think that that case has been taken advantage of largely in England, whatever may have been the case in other parts of the country. It may have been taken advantage of in the case of some small blocks of flats, by unconscionable or keen landlords, but not, I think, many.
The hon. Member who spoke last disclaimed any intention of referring to anything which was favourable to the tenant, on grounds which I did not understand. I think he might have referred to some of these points, as throwing a little light upon the otherwise gloomy prospects which he observed on looking at the Bill.
I wish to say a few words upon the general aspect of the Bill from the point of view of the two sets of people principally concerned in it. I observed that the last speaker said exceedingly little about the second part of the Bill. I suppose it was because he liked it a lot. I am not sure that I like the second part quite as much as the hon. Member seemed to imply that he liked it. I wish to ask the Minister of Health a few questions. I agree that my right hon. Friend, in his exceedingly lucid exposition of this very difficult subject, said that he had not satisfied every part of the House on all parts of the Bill, but thought that he had probably satisfied each part of the House on some parts of the Bill. That is about the situation
With regard to the second part of the Bill—the continuation of control for five years after two years with some changes —I would ask my right hon. Friend how it is to be applied. I admit that he is faced with a tremendous difficulty here. He cannot decontrol at once. I believe-that if you could decontrol at once that would be the best solution of our difficulty. But, as has been said, there is no Government of any kind that could be constituted which could decontrol at once, because the hardships that would be felt would be severe, and it would be a surgical operation of the major kind to undertake the matter without any period during which the relations of tenants and landlords could be readjusted. I look upon the period of five years as rather a long period, especially in view of the fact that it is to apply not only to the small houses which are wanted for the working classes, but also to houses up to £100 a year. I agree that that issue of differentiation was practically settled when the right hon. Gentleman took his seat in the Government. He was faced with this great difficulty. I am inclined to agree with the last speaker that there will be a period of uncertainty arising out of this Bill, for a period, of five years plus two, or seven years. The last speaker referred to it from the point of view of the tenant. I would say that there will be uncertainty in the minds of both tenants and landlords. I wish that some scheme could have been found which would have enabled the whole thing to have been closed up earlier.
Apart from the question of the length of time that this is to take, I would ask one or two questions with regard to the method which is adopted. This is going to the County Court. If you refer it to the County Court to settle it without assistance, the County Court will simply be swamped. I doubt very much whether the County Court Judges want to do it, as it is, but in default of a better tribunal the County Courts are to undertake the work. then you have a Reference Committee. My fears with regard to leaving matters of this kind to be settled for a period of five years by any tribunal at all, with its challenge to the principle of freedom of contract and to economic law, were not removed by the nature of the Reference Committee that the right hon. Gentleman adumbrated. I must say that it is not the sort of Committee that I would have chosen. There is to be a representative of the landlords and one of the tenant, and a third party, I understood. I am afraid that these Committees will not be quite such happy families as my right hon. Friend thought they might be.
If we are to have a tribunal at all or any assistance to the County Court, may I suggest that something in the nature of the tribunal which is to be found under the Acquisition of Land Act and under the Agricultural Holdings Act, whereby there is a panel set up of expert persons, either lawyers where the case is mostly legal, or surveyors where the point has mostly to deal with the value of property and rent, or persons who have a certain amount of experience on assessment committees and the like, which would be a better body to draw assistance from. Let one of those people act as arbitrator, as provided for under the Acts mentioned. I think the County Courts would get more assistance from a single arbitrator of that kind than they would get from a, Reference Committee of the kind which has been suggested by the right hon. Gentleman.
My right hon. Friend has said that he has an open mind on the subject. He said that he did not think it was necessary to settle the matter at the moment, because things might change in the meantime. I realise that this attempt to solve the question is tentative, and must be subject to whatever may happen in the next two years. Therefore I shall not now press so much what should be the nature of the tribunal or the arbitration assistance which should be given to the County Courts. There is in the Bill another provision for arbitration which sounds very much better. It is in Clause 11, Sub-section (2), which provides that questions arising under the principal Act or this part of the Bill may go to be settled finally by the Judge, or by the Registrar of the County Court sitting as an arbitrator, or by an arbitrator appointed by such Judge. That is meant to apply to the two years' period, I understand. I suggest to the Government that it is possible that a single arbitrator of that kind might do the whole thing under Part II better than a County Court, with rather a cumbersome Reference Committee, on which people with different political theories would work out their political ideas over the bodies of landlords and tenants.
Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being present—
I am sorry to see that my hon. Friend who opened the ball on behalf of the Labour party has not yet honoured us with his presence. Returning to the question of the tribunals, I hope my right hon. Friend the Minister will be able to take into his consideration the points which I have suggested. There is a very strong feeling abroad that leaving the question in the hands of any tribunal at all may be productive of some disadvantage. I can quite see this has become an integral part of the structure of the Bill. I have some misgivings about it, but my misgivings would be largely, though not entirely, removed if the formation of the tribunal were dealt with in the way I have suggested.
Generally, on the question of the Courts, I think in the second part of the Bill the period of five years — that is the period between the two years and the time when entire decontrol is to take place—could have been better dealt with in another way. It is perhaps late in the day to make any suggestion on that subject now the Bill is before the House, but I think myself it would have been better had we been able to have a clean cut of some kind. It would have been better had it been possible to have fixed rents definitely for a period, to have given the landlord no power to increase rents beyond the 1920 Act and to have swept away all other kinds of restrictions, giving him complete control over his property except as regards the power of varying rents. I think that would have been a method of clearing away the whole set of difficulties in which we now exist; in which we shall be, to some extent, existing at the end of the two years and in which we may be existing even at the end of the seven years. The Courts are also part of the structure of the Bill, however, and it is too late to urge my suggestion in definite fashion at this moment. I realise the great difficulty in which the Minister is placed in this matter, and looking at the Bill all round I think it marks a decided step towards the solution of this problem even though in regard to Part II it does not run on the lines which many of us would have desired.
I accept as an accurate summary of the criticism which I should pass on this Bill, the speech of the hon. Member who moved the rejection from the Labour Benches. I do not agree, however, with the conclusion which he bases upon that criticism. I feel that most of the objections he has taken can be removed in Committee and, if they are removed, I, and the party to which I belong, will not oppose the Bill, but will give it the warmest approval. If, on the other hand, these objections, or a substantial portion of them, are not removed, then I have no hesitation in saying, for myself, that this Bill, as a Measure which purports to prolong the duration of the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restrictions) Act of 1920, is wholly illusory and a sham. It does prolong a control, but not the control of the old Act, and, if I may use a metaphor, whilst the pipe is extended there are so many holes in the extended part that before the flow has reached the end most of it will have leaked. I do not follow, quite in the same order as the hon. Member who moved the rejection of the Bill, the grounds which justify that statement, but T shall endeavour to call the attention of the House to some of the principal justifications for the statement and, at the outset, I wish to have one matter cleared up. Clause 1of the Bill distinctly declares that the Act of 1920 shall at once cease the moment the landlord comes into possession. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General knows, "comes into possession" is an expression which has no strict legal meaning and, what is worse, it is an expression which has two colloquial meanings having regard to the circumstances of this case. The landlord may come into possession at the end of a contract period or he may come into possession at the end of the statutory limit. If it means that, as soon as the contract period finishes, he then comes into possession, every lease and every yearly tenancy which falls in between now and the end of the two years is at once decontrolled. If, on the other hand, it means that he comes into possession upon the expiration of the statutory period, then, no doubt, that will not apply, but certain conditions to which I shall now draw attention will in that case apply.
The most noticeable feature in the Bill is this. Under the former Act there was not any lengthening of the title of the tenant, but merely the provision that a landlord could not recover possession except in certain cases. If he did recover possession in those certain cases, under the former Act the house was still a controlled house and therefore there was little temptation to the landlord to put out Peter when he would have to put in Paul. Under this Bill, the moment he recovers possession, even though the grounds of exception remain the same as in the former Act, the same circumstances which only enabled him to recover possession of a controlled house under the former Act will now enable him to recover possession of a decontrolled house. Hon. Members will see the vast difference this makes. The hon. Member who so clearly pointed out the objections to the Bill on behalf of the Labour party said he did not lay so much stress upon the old grounds upon which a landlord could recover possession, but rather relied upon the new ones. I rely upon both, because a provision which was quite innocuous under the former Act becomes most effective under this Bill for destroying control. Take the first and primary provision. Under the former Act a landlord was always able to go to the Court and say that his tenant had not paid his rent when it fell due or had not fulfilled some of the obligations in his lease. The landlord did not do so. He did not take advantage of that provision under the former Act. Why? What good was it to a landlord, provided that at the last moment he was paid his rent, to come to Court and say, "My tenant Jones did not pay his rent on the right day," or" My tenant Jones has committed a breach of some minor covenant in the lease and I therefore ask for possession "? What was the use of getting possession from Jones of a controlled house when he had immediately to let it, at the same controlled rent, to Robinson?
I am not saying that landlords are worse than the rest of the community, but there is human nature in landlords' clothes, and now the landlord is in this position: He can say, "I am now receiving a rent of £50 for this house, but if I can turn the tenant out I will receive £75 for it. As long as I am able to say that the tenant who pays me £50 has defaulted for a few days or broken a minor covenant, I can go to the Court and ask that he be turned out, and immediately I decontrol the house and I am enabled to get my higher rent." [Hon. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] If I am asked "Why not?" my answer is, that I am, for the moment, dealing with the pretence under which this Bill is put forward, namely, that it is continuing the things which existed under the former Act. I am showing that it does nothing of the kind. In paragraph (a) of Clause 3 you have an enlargement of a Section of the prior Act. That is the nuisance Section. If it were never enlarged, it would be open to some objection, as I have just mentioned, because you now make it the interest of the landlord to find out, if possible, any way in which a tenant has made himself a nuisance; to find out, if possible, the smallest way in which a tenant has offended by using his house for an illegal purpose or something of that kind; to find out the smallest way in which he has offended by allowing waste or dilapidation. Under the former Act the landlord had nothing to gain by doing this; now he has a higher rent to gain. You put all that temptation in his way.
The Judges have a discretion.
6.0 P.M.
This has nothing whatever to do with the judges' discretion. A landlord sues for his premises. He says, "Put out this tenant." The tenant raises the Rent Restriction Act and says, "You cannot." The landlord says, "I can, because this man has committed a nuisance." What are the Amendments made in this Clause? Do they go in the direction of giving the tenant greater security of tenure, or do they go against it? Where, under the old Act, the nuisance, or the illegal purposes, or the dilapidations had to be committed by the tenant himself, now they may be committed by any lodger in the premises. What is to prevent a landlord—and there is no use getting up in balloons and saying the whole world is very moral: it is not—from saying to his tenant, "Mr. Tenant, you are now paying me £50 a year. They are howling outside to pay me £80. You take in a lodger and let him break a few panels. You can yourself come back as the new tenant, or you can, by taking a small sum of money, put me in the position of putting you out and another tenant in." I am not saying that that would be right. I am only saying that this Bill offers many temptations in that direction.
In every case this man has to go before a judge.
I cannot pause to argue questions of law, but the hon. Member knows very well that where an Act of Parliament defines rights and says that in adjudicating upon those rights the judge shall do what is fair, it does not say that the judge can make new rights.
The judge has got discretion.
Allow me to say that giving a judge discretion does not give a judge power to do anything other than the Act of Parliament says.
This discretion is exercised every day in the Courts.
I do not know the profession of the hon. Gentleman who interrupts me, but I have great confidence that, in replying, the learned Attorney-General will not make that point. There is another Clause in the Bill. Where a landlord can show under the old Act that he wanted a house for himself, he was entitled to get possession, but now he is entitled to get possession if he shows that he wants a house for himself or any of his children. Children become an added blessing under this Bill. He is also entitled to possession if he shows that he wants it for some other person who is bona fide residing with him. What does that mean? What is to prevent a landlord saying to some prospective tenant who is willing to pay a higher rent, "My friend, come and live with me for a few weeks. I will do you well, and then I will give you the house you want"? Again, a landlord is entitled to get possession if he shows that he wants a house for some employeé or some tenant of the landlord. Take another Clause, which is entirely a new one. If the tenant, without the sanction of the landlord, has at any time after the Act comes into operation assigned or sub-let the whole of a dwelling-house, or sub-let part of a dwelling-house, the remainder being already sub-let, the Clause operates. That means this, that the moment a house passes entirely into the hands of a subtenant or sub-tenants, decontrol takes place. It seems to me that that at once renders it absolutely necessary that numerous houses must be decontrolled. In the poorer districts the persons who take these houses are unable themselves to meet the full rent, and what they have to do is to sub-let, and if any one of them sub-lets the whole of the house, decontrol follows.
That is not so.
"Without the consent of the landlord" means that you may have a sub-letting Clause. You may be entitled to sub-let under the terms of your lease, but, notwithstanding that, if you sub-let without the consent of the landlord, the Clause operates. Then there is Sub-section (2) of Clause 2, where a landlord can make an agreement with his tenant that the existing tenancy shall be converted into a tenancy extending beyond the two years' period, and the moment he does so the house is decontrolled. That is another way of saying that persons may contract out of the Act. It may be said, "there is no harm in that," or "Cannot two persons make a contract?" Of course they can, but the whole purpose of this legislation is to prevent individuals doing what suits them to the detriment of the rest of the community. A tenant may be paying £90 or £100 in rent, and he may be willing to pay £130 if he gets the place for five years. It may suit him and the landlord to do that. Here is a Clause that says that wherever it suits a landlord and tenant to consult their own interests, they may do it to the detriment of the rest of the community.
How?
By limiting the number of houses obtainable. That must be so. Take a simple illustration. If the purpose of a Bill like this be to secure that there shall be in a district 1,000 houses available for persons of ordinary means, any system by which you render some of these unavailable is a system which is against the policy of the Bill. If, therefore, you say to the landlords and tenants of, say, 500 of these houses, "If it suits you, gentlemen, and if it suits your own pockets, you can withdraw, from the available number of houses for the community, 500 of them," that is against the policy of the Bill. There is another Clause.
On a point of Order. May I ask if it is in accordance with the traditions of the House on the Second Reading of a Bill to recite and comment upon all the Clauses in a Bill?
Is it in accordance with the traditions of the House that a speaker should be interrupted as this speaker has been?
I do not think it is a point of Order. I must ask hon. Members to allow the hon. Member who is in possession to make his speech in his own way.
May I be at liberty to direct the attention of the hon. and gallant Member for Hulme (Lieut.-Colonel Nall) to this very simple proposition, that if you start out to show that a Bill ought not to be given a Second Beading because the Clauses in it show it not to he keeping up the control, can anything be more relevant than to point out every place where it fails to do so? For these reasons I submit that the first criticism is made good, that even though this Bill nominally prolongs the control, its effect will be that before even the two years have elapsed the great bulk of houses will have slipped out of the control. That may be considered wise or unwise, but is it what this Bill purports to do? I understand that this Bill is shaped in order to undo the mischief that was done by the vacillating policy that cost the Government their first Minister of Health, and the electors are being told in this Bill, "You are now getting a continuation of the old Act." We are justified in pointing out that they are getting nothing of the kind. Under a mask of control they are getting most rapid decontrol, which will start the very day that this is passed into law.
I may be asked if I am, then, in favour of continued control. My answer is that I think control is an evil. At the same time I think it is a necessary evil. I think it ought not to be continued a day longer than is essential in order to prevent great hardship and great injustice being done to the poorer people, and the question one has to ask oneself then is, "What is that time?" A man may be obliged to use a crutch while his limb is disabled. If he throws away his crutch too soon, he undoes all the good that has been done, and if he uses the crutch too long, he induces paralysis. To continue the metaphor, you must hit upon the time to discontinue this crutch when there are houses sufficient to carry the people. What is the best way of arriving at that time? It is very obvious that under the sluggish interest that will be given by the subsidy that has been created by the Housing Bill, two years will not be sufficient, nor is it expected by the Minister of Health that it will be sufficient, because why does he add the five years' conditional protection? My suggestion to the House is that the period of two years should be lengthened to, say, four years absolutely, and that there should be no conditional period at all, that Part II of the Bill should be wiped out.
I am entirely opposed to this method of, at the end of two years, throwing the situation into the hands of these reference committees and County Court Judges. We could not get a tribunal more unfitted to deal with these particularly vague problems than such a tribunal as is set up in this Bill, but, far worse than that, during those five years, how could you have any dealing in houses at all? An owner has a house to let, and he says, "Am I to let it at a controlled or at a decontrolled rent?" the answer is, "You must not chance it." there is a house to sell, and he says, "Am I going to sell at a controlled or at a decontrolled price?" the answer is, "You must not chance it." Every time he has to deal with a pig in a poke, and no one knows what the size of the pig is until the County Court Judge, months later, rips up the sack. The way is to sweep away all these illusory methods of bringing about decontrol. Make it a clean continuance of the old Act. Allow landlords to recover possession, as they are entitled to do, where a tenant is creating a nuisance, where there is great waste going on, where the tenant even has to sub-let the premises so as not to want them himself. Allow the landlord to recover in all these eases, but let him recover the same thing as he gave, namely, a controlled house. Let that continue for a definite period of three or four years, as experts may decide, and at the end of that period merely allow this Clause to operate, the alternative accommodation Clause, and no other.
I notice that the alternative accommodation Clause has been amended—I think, very fairly—from the last one, because it was an utter absurdity to say to a landlord, "You cannot, however entitled you may be otherwise, get your house unless you can find an exact equivalent." This Bill says, "You can get your house if you can find a suitable house." Of course, it is subject to the criticism that was passed before, that there is no mention of rent, but I would make that alternative accommodation Clause neither as it is now, nor as it was then, but it could be very easily settled into some sort of reasonable Clause that would bring this about. Your fixed period is up. Control for general purposes has ceased. A landlord then goes to recover his house. The tenant says that in that district sufficient houses are not yet built, and it is not fair that the house should be taken from him. That would be the alternative Clause. Let the County Court Judge have the power to decide, when the Act has generally come to an end in particular districts, it should come to an end, because, under the influence of this alternative Clause, it is found houses have not come up to what is required. In that way you bring control naturally and automatically to an end, and after the general period in one district or another, because in no case would a tenant be able to show that he would be unable to get suitable accommodation elsewhere. In other districts it might go on for a year, or for two or three years, and in that way it would taper off until it disappeared altogether.
That is my suggestion for meeting the difficulty with which we are confronted. Everybody agrees, or, at least, every intelligent person, I think, agrees, that while control became necessary because of the original shortage of houses, it defeats its own purpose, because with control the shortage increases, and the longer the control lasts the less will be the stimulus to build. We are all agreed there, but it is essential, now that we have started control, that it should be kept up until there is a sufficiency of houses for the people. My humble submission is that that is best done by continuing the old Act for, say, three years, and, at the end of that three years, meeting any lack of accommodation that may then exist by the application of the alternative accommodation.
I should like, if I may, to express my admiration of the manner in which the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health has dealt with his task. It was a task, everyone in this House will agree, of very considerable difficulty, and it cannot surprise anyone to know that he has taken more time over this Bill than he has over the other Bills. I think everyone, or nearly everyone, in this House must agree that some form of control is essential for the time being. It is necessary that tenants who have nowhere to go when turned out of their houses should be protected, at least until the housing conditions in the country are reasonably sufficient to satisfy the demand. On the other hand, it is recognised, too, I have no doubt, that as long as you have control you do put a stop to building. You prevent, to a large extent, builders entering upon building operations, upon which they would enter if they had a free hand with regard to the disposal of their property for all time. Beyond that, it is recognised, at least in some parts of the House, that the owner has some rights, and one cannot get away from the fact that in other parts of the House it is thought that, immediately you mention a landlord, you are dealing with someone of wealth, someone who owns a number of houses, whereas the true facts are, that in many cases you have to deal with a man who has bought one house out of his savings, and has bought that house in order that he may live in it himself.
I was interested to hear the words of the Minister of Health on this subject. His experience, I feel sure, is similar to the experience of most Members of this House, that, though they have received large numbers of letters on the subject, the great majority of those letters have been from people who have bought an odd house, who want to get possession of that house, and who know that the tenant of the house is, possibly, in a much better position than they are themselves to find accommodation elsewhere. There are many instances, throughout the length and breadth of this land, in which a man, as the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health has pointed out, cannot get possession of a house, cannot afford to keep furnished rooms, and has to store his furniture somewhere, while, all the time, his tenant is a rich man. All these cases ought to be met. Between the conflicting interests, the Minister of Health has, in my opinion, drawn what appears to be a fair line. I do not say that Amendments to the Bill are not possible. There are Amendments possible, no doubt, and substantial Amendments, in certain parts, will be made in Committee; but, taking the Bill as a whole, I respectfully submit that it is a fair Measure.
I do not desire to go into points which will be dealt with in Committee, but there are one or two matters upon which I should like some guidance from the Minister of Health. Before I deal with those points, may I say how satisfactory it is to me, at least, to know that all houses which were subject to the original Act, or subject to the 1920 Act, are being dealt with alike? There was a time when it was suggested that houses, which I may describe as middle-class houses, should be de-controlled earlier than working-class houses. I think it would ' have been wrong, and an injustice to the middle-classes, when they had as much to put up with, and more than most. Having said that, may I direct attention to one or two Clauses of the Bill, in order that information may be given, if it be thought necessary, at a later stage? With regard to paragraph (b) of Clause 3, which amends the old paragraph (d), I see that the words (f) of Clause 3. I observe that paragraph (iv) of the Act of 1920 is altered so that where the landlord became the landlord before the 30th June, 1922, it becomes, in effect, unnecessary to prove alternative accommodation. The Minister of Health pointed out, quite fairly, that this was still dependent on whether or not the Court thought it reasonable to make an Order. That is true, but I am not at all sure that, on the construction of that Section of the Act, as it will be altered, the County Court Judge has any discretion in the matter. If so, the proviso in substituted paragraph (v) appears to be somewhat unnecessary. Further, may I point out what appears to me to be somewhat of an anomaly, when you compare paragraph (f) with Clause 12 of the Bill? It seems to me that you have this position arising, that where the landlord became a landlord before the 30th June, 1922, he is now entitled to get possession of his house, or will be if this Bill becomes law, without regard to alternative accommodation, and, possibly, without regard to the position of the tenant. It may be that the man who is landlord of that house to-day and who became landlord before the 30th June, 1922, has a house in which to live at present, and himself, for some reason, is turned out, we will say, in the year 1925. If he is turned out after the 24th June, 1925, he is then unable to get possession of his own house if it should be proved that exceptional hardship would be caused to the sitting tenant, so that, in order to avoid any question of that sort arising after the 24th June, 1925, he must take proceedings before. It seems to me that that may be something which will encourage a landlord to take proceedings sooner than otherwise he would do, and that is undesirable. I do not know if it is possible in paragraph (f) , which is the old Subsection (iv) altered, to make clearer that the County Court Judge has a discretion —if in fact he has that discretion.
There are one or two other Clauses to which I wish to draw attention. Take Clause 10 of the Bill, that refers to the amendment of provisions of the principal Act as to houses let with furniture, etc. I observe that a certain part of Subsection (1) reads as follows: What forms" a substantial portion of the whole rent "is a question of determination by the County Court Judge. Will it be final? I do not know whether it is possible to define rather more accurately what "a substantial portion of the whole rent"is? I trust it will be dealt with in order, again, that litigation may be avoided. This is a question upon which the judgment of the County Court Judge, or the tribunal of first instance, should be final. There is one other matter with which I should like to deal in the Bill as it stands, and that is in reference to the suggested Reference Committees. In my judgment it would be better that all these matters should be dealt with, as they have been dealt with, by County Court Judges, or in certain cases taken by benches of magistrates, as they may now be. It does not appear to me, with due respect to the Minister of Health, that any good purpose would be served by setting up these Reference Committees. I am not certain of whom it is proposed they should consist. I do not know whether it is proposed they should be for counties, for boroughs, for particular districts, or merely Committees in general, but I should like some further information upon that point. I believe that the general feeling throughout the country is that the County Court Judges have administered the Act so far with admirable discretion and judgment, and I believe it would be a more satisfactory administration of this Bill, after it becomes an Act, if it was administered as has been the case rather than setting up some tribunal about which no one knows anything exactly.
In respect to the Bill as a whole, may I say one or two words in reference to what has gone before. I was interested in the speech of the hon. Gentleman who represents Seaham (Mr. Webb). His picture of himself as the prodigal son going from one County Court to another was at least a humorous one, but if the hon. Gentleman had had any idea as to how strenuously all these cases are fought, and as to the practice in the Courts in different parts of the country, I should think he would have come to the conclusion that the prodigal son would very soon be found out. He made one or two comments with regard to particular parts of the Bill. One to which I desire to direct attention is Clause 3, paragraph (f) , sub-paragraph (v). He said, "reading that Clause, how is a County Court or any Court to be satisfied (a) . He said that if a sub-tenant's children made a noise the tenant might be turned out of the house. I suggest to the House that he had only read half of the paragraph. If he will look at the rest of the paragraph he will find these words: (b) , as to any person bona fide residing with the landlord, and he said that the landlord could get possession if he wanted the house for somebody residing with him. I cannot think that he has looked at the terms of the old Act of 1920. If he had he would not have made his complaint. If he had done so he would have been complaining of the old Act for years—but perhaps he has?
I did say it was the same as the old Act, but with a difference. There is not the same control.
I am obliged to the hon. Member for saying that he thinks this is the same as the old Act, but I will recommend him again to look at the old Act, and he will find that it is not the same. The old Act was wider than this Act—it was "residing, or to reside." This cuts it down. I cannot think the hon. Member had seen that when he mentioned the matter. Again, the hon. Member for South Shields said, do not decontrol in a couple of years' time, but leave it for three or four years. I dare say it is possible that in three or four years somebody will say the same thing. I dare say that if the Minister of Health in this Bill had proposed three or four years, somebody would have suggested five or six years.
We all want to get rid of control without doing an injustice to the tenants. You must protect the tenant. On the other hand you must have regard to the rights of the community as a whole, and as to what is best for the community in the long run. By this Bill, if carried, you get your protection and control subject to certain limitations, for another two years, and then beyond that from 1925 for a period further, and possibly up to 1930, protection is afforded to the tenant of any house who would be affected by exceptional hardship. Could anything be fairer than that? In any case in the future, even after this period of control is gone, in any case where a landlord asks for possession of a house the tenant can resist and can test his case in the County Court, and if he can show exceptional hardship then the landlord cannot remove him. I submit to the House that this Bill, taken as a whole, is a fair Bill, and I hope the House will take that view. In conclusion may I thank the House for the courteous hearing given to me on the first occasion on which I have addressed it.
I do not think that this Bill is a fair Bill, and I am sorry that I am again in the unhappy position of not being able to congratulate the Minister responsible for the Bill. I think congratulations are too frequent in this House. Particularly is that the case when we have been sent here to represent a distinct point of view, and one that the Minister does not understand. This is the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions Bill. It has been challenged from different parts of the House. The inferences from the Treasury Bench that the landlords are all right has been cheered from another part of the House. My interjection at that point was to suggest that it was because those who cheered had no experience of landlords. We have had experience of landlords, and it is on behalf of the class which have experience of landlords that I wish to speak to the House.
Why the need for this Bill if the landlords are all right? Why the. Rent Restrictions Act? Because of the harshness of the landlords. These are facts that cannot be denied. Again, why is there all this trouble? What are we discussing to-day? It is the most serious question in my opinion that this House could possibly discuss, but because it affects the working people of our own country there is less interest taken in the subject than in a subject that would affect China, or Timbuctoo, or any place other than our own native land! Hence all the benches opposite are empty. This has nothing to do with foreign affairs. It has to do with the home life of our people, and that is of more importance to this House than this House appears to have any idea of. All the trouble is the shortage of houses. Because there is a shortage of houses you are sapping at the very foundation of our great Empire. Who is responsible for that shortage of houses? Is it the Labour party? Is it Socialism? [HON. MEMBERS:" Hear, hear! "] Has the Labour party been in power? No. But your fraternity opposite have been in power, and it has been demonstrated beyond all shadow of doubt that the private enterprise that you represent, that is represented by the Minister of Health, has miserably failed.
The Government stands for private enterprise, and the trouble is that the Government that hon. Members opposite stand for and that the Minister of Health claims to have the honour to represent in this House is responsible for all the degradation, and for all the sin that can be attributed to the bad housing of the working people of our country. Do not tell me that I am always reiterating the class war. It is you with your legislation. Every time you bring in a Bill you demonstrate beyond the shadow of a doubt the class you are legislating for. Who is it you are making provision for now? It is not the Duke of York, for he had no trouble in finding a house. That was not a vexed question with him when he was getting married, but it is B vexed question with my class, and they cannot get married. Remember what it means when the working people of our country, who are the backbone of the British Empire, are placed in the position that they are not able to get married, and they are not able to get homes because there are no houses for them.
There are many cases which I might discuss, but I prefer to leave that to some of my colleagues. I had hoped, as I stated the last time I spoke on this subject, that on this occasion, after all we had said to the Minister and the House in general, that something would be done to relieve the appalling conditions which prevail in working class communities. It has been said, and rightly said, that this is a big problem. We were told that at last the Government had found a big man who would be capable of tackling this big problem. As far as my opinion goes I think the Minister has miserably failed, and I leave the public to judge, and time will demonstrate that this is simply playing and tinkering in a most miserable fashion with this subject, and not in a fashion which is worthy of a great Empire such as ours. Why do you not tackle this problem in the way you tackled the War. This problem to our people means as much to the British Empire as the German menace. It is quite as serious, and it should be attacked in the same fashion.
What happened when we were getting up against the greatest military machine the sun ever shone upon? All the power of Great Britain, all our great economic resources and all our man power was brought to bear against that great menace. I hold that the same thing should be done in this casse, but what blocks the way? Is it the Labour party? No, it is private enterprise, and nobody knows that better than hon. Members opposite. The Government in power at the moment have to consider at all times how this is going to affect private enterprise, but if hon. Members opposite were intelligent—
The hon. Member had better address his remarks to me.
I have too much respect for you, Mr. Speaker, to address you in that way. If the Government had the intelligence which the country credit them with, they would utilise that intelligence to save the people of our native land. During the Recess I have been in a part of my native land, the Island of Lewis, where the conditions are more appalling than they are anywhere in Russia or anywhere else. Those people are living in a part of our Empire, and they are represented in this House. They are the finest type of Britons, but they are being practically starved to death. We are the finest educated race that Britain has ever produced, and our people are being crushed in a most disgraceful fashion because of private enterprise. I will raise that matter again at some future date, but I had hoped that something good would materialise from the efforts that have been put forth, not only from the Labour Benches, but from every responsible local authority in the country who have been clamouring and hammering at the Government, and all this has evidently been of no avail. The Government keep careering on, and try to smooth matters over. If we could only get the Government to understand all these petitions coming from every quarter of the country and every part of Britain, things might be better. On this subject I can speak for Scotland at any rate, and I challenge any hon. Member to deny it.
Many local councils have petitioned the Government on this vexed question, and they have had local experience. They are in direct touch with the people, and they are not like the hon. Members who assemble here who are far removed, I was going to say, from human habitation, but they are far removed from the actual facts of what is taking place in the country. The life which is led here is not conducive to keeping in touch with the actual life of the people we have been sent to represent, and that includes the Government and every hon. Member here. Hon. Members are sent here to represent the great mass of the people, but when they get here they lose touch with the actual conditions, in fact, as far as the Government is concerned, they do all they possibly can to keep out of touch with the actual conditions tinder which the people live whom they represent. As a result of that they go on legislating in a slipshod fashion, and the people are left to waste, and they are dying of starvation.
The people are needing houses, and the, Government come forward with a Bill that is absolutely no use, and does not touch the fringe of this great question. How we are going to get them to understand this question I do not know. I am not one of those who believe that our party is simply going to walk into power in a year or two. I believe there are powers which still have many a trick to play upon us, and they have other cards up their sleeve. That is why I believe it is the duty of the Labour party to fight on and not make friends with the Opposition. We should fight them because they have a distinct point of view from ours, and they are a distinct class of society. They do not consider that we are as good as they are. They think we are of a different clay entirely, but I believe that we are as good as the best men who were ever produced in these islands, and we are prepared to demonstrate it at any time.
We are not going to lower our flag. We have a distinct point of view of our own, and it is not the point of view of those who are in power. We have to hold our point of view; we have to keep our hands clean and not be identified with those folks. How can we identify ourselves with people who have none of our troubles. You have the King on the throne. When his son wants to get married he can get married. There is no scarcity of houses in that case, and there is no scarcity in the West End of London. Why are those houses not rationed? There are hon. Members in this. House who want to fraternise with me, but I do not want to fraternise with them.
There is this vexed question of houses. There are people here who have more than one house in London and they have houses in the country as well, and they have their yacht on the sea. How, then, can we have anything in common, we who are sent here to represent the people who have none of these things, nothing but the labour power contained in their bodies, which, in order to live, they have to sell to those who own everything in our native land? It is to end those things that we have been sent here, and it is because we have been sent on that mission that I am against the Bill, and am speaking in favour of its rejection.
7.0 P.M.
I wish my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health had taken his courage in both hands and had decontrolled all the houses at once. I do not think that the evils prophesied in that event would take place, and I believe that after a year or two the majority of people would have forgotten that there had been any control of houses. I have no objection to the first part of the Bill, but I should like to ask my right hon. Friend a question upon paragraph (b) of Clause 3. My right hon. Friend told the House of the great hardships which had resulted from an owner purchaser being unable to obtain possession of his house. He said he thought this Clause would give that person an opportunity of obtaining possession of his own house. I thought the instances he quoted showed how necessary a Clause of this sort was. He went on to say that the conditions in the old Act had been interpreted in various ways by different judges, one of whom had gone so far as to say that, in deciding whether there was suitable accommodation, he also considered whether it was suitable for the man's business purposes. I understood my right hon. Friend to say that he did not agree with that. Looking at this Clause we see that the judge has to consider whether the alternative accommodation is
Part II of the Bill seems to be an extremely unfortunate insertion. So far as I understand it, Part II says that for five years—that is for seven years from now—possession cannot be acquired unless a particular Court, set up under this Bill, decides that no unreasonable hardship is inflicted upon the tenant. How on earth is anybody to decide what is a reasonable or unreasonable hardship? People have very different opinions upon that. I am perfectly well aware that this does not apply to new houses, but I am very much afraid that the ordinary investor in houses will not be inclined to invest his money in new houses, even though this does not apply to them, if he sees a proviso of this sort. He might say—personally, if I were going to invest money in new houses, I should certainly say—" Five years from 1925 is seven years from now, I do not in the least know what party may be in power in seven years from now. This particular Clause being on the Statute Book, it will be quite easy for any Government then to bring in an amendment, saying that the Clause applies to all houses, whether old or new." My right hon. Friend will agree with me that there is nothing so timid as capital. If, as I believe, he desires—all of us on this side, at any rate, desire—to see new houses built by the only way in which they can be built, that is, by private enterprise, then we must do everything we can to encourage private enterprise and nothing whatever to discourage it.
There is another objection to this Part of the Bill. Clause 14 says: very difficult to set up these committees in the Bill. I understood that the powers of those committees, when set up, were going to be limited by the Bill, but if this word "jurisdiction" were left in— I speak only as a layman—it would enable the Minister of Health, whoever he might be in the period which is going to elapse between now and the end of seven years, to give any powers to these reference committees, and their powers would not be limited by the Bill. It is a very great mistake for this House to give up its control over legislation, and to pass a Bill which would give such power to a Minister, however good he may be. I would not give any more powers to a Tory Minister than to any hon. Gentleman on the other side of the House.
Thank you!
This House of Commons should settle what is to be done. Therefore, I earnestly hope that on the Committee stage this word "jurisdiction" may come out. I am very much afraid even that the reference committees bear somewhat of a resemblance to Rent Courts. We have had experience of Rent Courts in Ireland. There, they did not in any kind of way tend to promote harmony between landlord and tenant. They had in every way a most disastrous result, and I am afraid if this Clause were carried, even if the reference committees did not at once have the powers of the Land Courts, it would be very easy to give them those powers.
I do not quite understand Clause 13. I want to ask if the Clause applies to all houses, whether controlled or decontrolled? If I am right, in 1925, every house, whether it is decontrolled or not, will be subject to Clause 13. If that be so, that is at once a Rent Court; you cannot get out of it. In certain circumstances it fixes rent. If, as I think it does, this Clause applies to all houses under £100 a year, or whatever the sum may be, whether controlled or not, then it is goodbye to houses provided by private enterprise, if, at the end of two years, an owner is facing the knowledge that he is not to be allowed to come to an arrangement with his own tenant, even though the tenant may be willing, and if it is to be open to the tenant to say, "I should like a bathroom," or something of that sort, and to go to the Court. My experience of sanitary authorities is that they are very troublesome people to deal with. They have all sorts of fads and fancies. The cost of the suggestions does not come out of their own pocket, but out of somebody else's. They are rather inclined to show how zealous they are, and how anxious they are for everybody else's welfare and good, so long as they do not have to pay for it. Consequently we very often get very absurd proposals made by sanitary authorities. There is a suggestion in this Clause of other evidence, but there can be no question that the evidence of the sanitary authority would be the chief and primary evidence.
I should like to address this observation to my right hon. Friend, and I think he will agree with me. There is too much "Courts "in this Bill. In every Clause you have a Court. Take the case of the County Courts and the poor person. Going to a Court does not cause such great fear to me, because I have had some experience of lawyers, and I do not regard them as unfriendly. There are a great many people, however, who are very much afraid of lawyers, and would be very much afraid, when they got into the Court and saw the Attorney-General, in wig and gown, getting up to cross-examine them.
Not in a County Court.
No, but there are counsel who appear in a County Court in wig and gown. I wish the Government would remember that the majority of the people to whom this Bill applies are poor people. They cannot afford to go to a County Court, and employ a solicitor and perhaps counsel. It is certainly necessary to have a solicitor if you go to a County Court, and I am rather inclined to think they employ counsel.
It is desirable.
It is desirable. All that costs money, and these unfortunate people will have to put their hands into their pockets and engage a solicitor, and it may be counsel, to appear for them in the County Court. I would much prefer that these cases should go before the Justices in Petty Sessions; they sit fairly often. In my part of the world the County Court Judge may not sit for six or seven weeks, and it would be necessary in some cases to wait several weeks before a case could be tried, whereas, if it went before the Justices in Petty Sessions it could be disposed of almost immediately. In addition to that there is no need to employ counsel or solicitors before the Justices. Legal knowledge sometimes leads men astray, but by the adoption of the course I suggest you will probably get saner judgments and, at the same time, avoid considerable expense. I hope that the remarks I have made in no unfriendly spirit to the Government will be considered before we get into Committee.
We have had, as always, a very interesting and illuminating speech from the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury), who, we understand, is shortly to be transferred to another place. He will be a great loss to this House. I, for one, have always felt that he truly represents the real minds of hon. Members opposite. He has made it clear that those hon. Gentleman believe that there should be decontrol at once—[An HON. MEMBER: "Not all of us! "]—that it should come into force immediately; that we should get back to freedom of contract and that landlords should be allowed to charge what rent they like. Of course, the right hon. Baronet, who, at any rate, represents the views of a considerable number of hon. Members opposite, does not come in contact with any great body of the smaller tenants. The resident population of the City of London is not much more than 13,000, and a great many of these are caretakers, who get their quarters free or at a nominal rent as part of their salary. The electors in my constituency are differently situated. They live in a neighbourhood which has to supply largely the needs of the City of London in the matter of housing accommodation. In that neighbourhood live carmen and men engaged in packing goods in the City, as well as women who clean the offices there. This question is not merely a London question; it is a question which affects the whole country, and it is one which nearly every country has been called upon to face. In Paris, for instance, they have got control extended to any kind of house, flat, or dwelling occupied by the professional classes, and that shows the serious nature of the problem in that city.
I thoroughly appreciate the position of the Minister. He has to deal with a difficult question, and he is very anxious to solve it. I am not speaking in a faultfinding spirit. I appreciate his difficulties, but at the same time I must declare that the Bill, as at present drafted, is inadequate, and does not really cover the situation. In two years' time, I am afraid, we shall be in very much the same position as we are to-day. The right hon. Gentleman, indeed, admitted that in his speech, and he was so impressed with the fact that in two years' time, if the population continues to grow at its normal rate, the position will be just as acute, that he had to fall back on our old friend emigration, and to suggest that perhaps the pressure of housing accommodation in the country would be lessened because there might be emigration. He must be in a very sorry way to have to admit that his only hope of an alleviation of the situation is in the success of the Empire Development movement. Even should that movement be successful, I do not think that, as far as London is concerned, the situation will be solved. There the shortage dates back to 1911–12. Ever since 1901 there has been a steady decline in the number of houses built of all kinds, and the reason for it is difficult to fathom. In 1901, in the Metropolitan Police area, the number of houses built was 27,000, and it may be worth while to run through the figures in order to see how the supply has steadily fallen. Year by year they have gone down from 27,000 to 26,000, to 25,000, to 23,000, to 21,000, to 19,000, to 13,000, and in 1910 they fell to 11,700. Then there came a still more rapid decline in the following years, to 10,000 in 1911, to 8,000 in 1912, and 5,000 in 1915–16. This was during the War years, and then building was entirely stopped.
Do not forget the 1910 Budget.
I am referring now more particularly to the decline in the War years. That is the situation which the right hon. Gentleman has to face. I think he will be in agreement with me when I say that the housing shortage is due to State action, at any rate it was accentuated by State action. The Government interfered with the very small supply we were getting even before the War, a supply which did not keep pace with the demand, and then when the War came the Government intervened and stopped the supply altogether. It is their action which has brought about the house famine that this Bill proposes to attempt to deal with. I know that some of my hon. Friends contend that there is no reason why the house building industry should be controlled any more than any other industry. They point out that other trades have been suffering from two or three years' depression. The point I wish to drive home to the House is that while other trades have been suffering from an abnormal trade depression the owners of houses have had a complete monopoly and complete protection owing to the action of the Government during the War. This Bill is really a Bill to decontrol houses, although the right hon. Gentleman is trying to soften control down by various palliatives. It is decontrol based on hardships from which owners of property are said to be suffering. Yet owners of houses have never been in such a satisfactory position as they are to-day, because they have complete security for their rent.
In the old days, in 1910 and before, there was in London, and I suppose all over the country, a certain margin of houses empty, and therefore the person who let houses had always to face the risk of having empty houses on his hands. That risk has now entirely disappeared, and a man who has a house to let need not even put up a board, there is always a queue of persons willing to take it and pay the rent. Compared with other industries in the country the owner of small working dwellings for which there is an enormous demand and an insufficient supply has exceptional security. The Housing Committee of the London County Council, of which I am a member, before the War had a considerable number of working class tenements, let at the normal rents prevailing in the neighbourhood, and it was found that, as a result of ordinary movements of population from one district to another, there was always a certain percentage of the tenements vacant. In 1911 the percentage of empty houses on the various housing estates was nearly 7 per cent. In 1912 it fell to 5 per cent.; in 1913 to 2 per cent.; in 1914 to 1 per cent., and then it dropped to ¾ per cent., until in 1918 it had fallen to "28 per cent.; in 1920-21, to ·02 per cent., and last year to ·0006 per cent. There is practically no tenement empty. As the Minister of Health well knows, as soon as a house is built it is occupied, and there is no reason for any tenement to stand empty for a single day. The result is that they show a very considerable margin of profit on the cost of erection; and the same applies to the owners of working class houses throughout the country. They have security for the rent in the fact that the tenements are immediately let without difficulty. That being so, and so long as it is so, I contend that the tenants, who must live somewhere— in a climate like ours, except, perhaps, on certain days, they cannot camp out on Epsom Common, but must have a roof over their heads—have a right to claim from the State a certain amount of protection.
The Minister made great play with the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson), to which I put my name also, because he contended that it was vague. I think I shall carry him with me when I say it would be a good thing that there should not be decontrol until there are sufficient houses, and I think that this is a proposition which he ought to accept if he is really in earnest. Does the right hon. Gentleman honestly believe that the housing shortage will be met by 1925— in two years' time? Has he such sanguine hopes of the Measure that he is now piloting through the Standing Committee with such skill? Does he really think that there will be enough houses in 1925 to enable any Government, whatever its title may be, or whatever party it has behind it, to decontrol? I think that Part II of this Bill is an admission that he does not believe that to be so. The fact that he makes elaborate provision for Courts and consultative committees is proof that honestly he does not think the tremendous shortage of houses, as shown by the figures for Greater London which I have quoted, will be made up. Of course, while building has been stopped, the population has been growing, and, in London, at any rate, there has been a natural increase of over 10 per cent. in the number of families. Part II of the Bill is an admission that the right hon. Gentleman fears that the problem will be nearly as serious in 1925 as it is at the present time.
Would it not be wiser to face that fact and extend the period of control? Should not our working people be satisfied that they will not have to face this trouble again in two years' time? Is it wise to set up all this elaborate machinery, all this organisation of courts, as an instrument with which the ordinary occupier, the ordinary tenant in a large working-class district, has to grapple and study in the next two years? There is, of course, a provision that the tenant can make a lease to tide him over 1925. That is a very ingenious provision, but I would suggest to the Minister that it is very like blackmailing the tenant to suggest to him that, if he does not make a fresh agreement in 1925, he may find himself out in the street. I agree with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney) that landlords are not worse than ordinary mortals, but to put a man in the position of having that power is a great temptation to him to say to the tenant, "In 1925 protection disappears, and there will be decontrol. There is still a great demand, and there is still a shortage of houses. If you do not make a fresh agreement giving me a much higher rent, in June, 1925, you may find yourself out in the street. "Many of these people, unfortunately, owing to the deficiencies of our education system, are not educated in all the intricacies of the law. They have not been trained by my hon. and learned Friend. It was as much as I could do to follow some of his most interesting arguments, so how can an ordinary tenant, who lives in a working-class district, and who left school at 14, be expected to understand the technicalities of the law? When a landlord comes to him and shows him this Bill, he will be very much tempted to be persuaded to pay a higher rent and make a fresh lease.
There is another thing which I think is extremely unfair. There is a certain type of landlord who has been deliberately holding up property and keeping it off the market, not being prepared to let it, although the demand has been great, but insisting upon sale. Under this Bill, as I understand, he is going to be a favoured individual. He is going to be rewarded for having held up the community to ransom by keeping off the market this property which has been so badly wanted. I do not think that that Clause is a good one. Some tenants, of course, have been very unfair to the landlords. We know of bad tenants as well as bad landlords. On the other hand, the landlord who has been a bad citizen, who has deliberately kept property off the market when it was wanted, at a time when there was much unemployment and when people could not possibly buy, is going to be privileged under this Bill by being allowed to charge a higher rent than his neighbours who kept their property in occupation. I think that when the Bill goes to Committee we should try to get that Clause either deleted or very much altered.
I want to impress on the Minister, and on those Members who wish to see decontrol, that there is no cause that contributes more to unrest in the country than this uncertainty as to the future as to rent. Constantly, when I go about the streets in my constituency of Bethnal Green—and the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) will bear me out—I find that that is the one question which causes strong feeling. The ordinary citizen in this country is very tranquil and very easily contented; he is not a revolutionary; but there are certain problems which are constantly in front of him. First, he wants regular work, and, secondly, he wants a decent home—nothing very elaborate, nothing very wonderful or large, but at a reasonable rent that he can pay. We have not got that in London. There are not enough houses to go round. There is a terrible shortage, and fearful overcrowding. I came across only the other day in Bethnal Green a case in which 16 people are living in four rooms, and within a few hundred yards of this House, in Lambeth, there are still houses, occupied by families, underground and pitch dark. They are not occupied because people like to live under those conditions, but because there are not enough houses to be obtained. It would be a serious thing, at a time like this, when there is great economic uncertainty and much unemployment, if, every two years, the nation is to be asked to consider whether the one protection that it has in the form of control of houses by the State should be altered or removed. We know what an outcry there was a few months ago, which brought down a popular Minister in a safe Conservative constituency. If we want safety and ordered progress, do let us settle this question, not for one year or two years, but for a reasonable period; and, if I had to suggest a date, I would suggest 1928, that is to say, a period of four years. Then we might be in a position to see some of the leeway in regard to shortage of houses made up.
The hon. Member who has just spoken rather took it upon himself to state that we on this side of the House wanted decontrol at once. I do not know quite what authority he has to speak for us, but, so far as I know, no such idea prevails among Members on this side of the House. We are as anxious as anyone to get a solution of this extremely difficult question on lines that shall be fair and equitable to landlords and tenants. I am reminded of a speech of the hon. Member for a Scottish constituency, who spoke as though the landlord class were all property owners. He will forgive me for pointing out that the landlord under this Bill, in the vast majority of cases, does not own the house at all, but is the man who was a tenant and has let off two, three, or four rooms, because he cannot afford to pay the rent. I took the trouble a little while ago in my own constituency to calculate what proportion of the landlords under this Bill are in fact property owners, and I discovered that they are quite few in number, but that there are thousands of working-class people who have taken houses as tenants and have had to let part of them in order to pay their rent. They are landlords under this Bill, and every time you restrict the rights of the landlord you are restricting the rights of these people, who, in many cases, are as poor as their tenants.
The criticism I have to offer on this Bill, in the first place, is that the period of two years is too short. I thought, if I may say so, that the hon. and learned Member for South Shields described the problem very succinctly when he said that we have to fix such a period as will enable us to make up the shortage of houses at present prevailing. I agree with the hon. Member who spoke last, that it is no use having two years and then an- other two years. People do not know where they are. We want to make a calculation, so far as we can, as to how long it will take before we can catch up the housing shortage, and then protect the tenant for that period. It is abundantly clear that the Minister of Health thinks that two years will be nothing like enough. If he did, there was not the slightest need for the further period of five years laid down in Part II of the Bill. That seems to be to be a particularly objectionable feature, with all the disadvantages of control, and working in a vague and uncertain way. The tribunal is not even constituted, and its powers are not denned. I hope that Part II will be abandoned, and that in its place there will be an enlargement of the period of two years.
The right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) thought that we should change the tribunal, and, instead of going to the County Court, should go to the justices. May I suggest, with great respect to the right hon. Baronet, that if you have a tribunal which has had several years' experience of the working of this Act, it would be a piece of folly suddenly to transfer the matter to another tribunal altogether, which has had far less, and, perhaps, no experience at all in the matter. I know that the justices have the power at present, but in fact it is very little exercised. I would, however, ask the Government, if it is not too late, Why go to the County Court at all? At the present time in London the County Courts are congested with business which they cannot get through. They have to sit till five, six and even eight o'clock at night, and then there are adjournments, which are very expensive. The County Court Judge has to deal with common law, equity, company winding-up, bankruptcy workmen's compensation—no judge in the land has to cover so much ground; and we are putting upon him here an extremely complicated piece of legislation. I think that every one of them wishes it had never been done, and thinks it is not quite fair.
I do not put it merely on the ground that the county courts are congested, although that is serious enough, because you cannot get a case tried to-day in London in less than about six weeks or two months. In questions dealing with the life of the people we want speedy justice above all things, and, when you have a difference between landlord and tenant, it is deplorable that they should be hung up as they are to-day. Is this, however, a legal problem? We have had experiences of decisions being given in the courts which everyone regrets, although everyone agrees that, from a legal point of view, it could not be helped. There is another side to this question. It is really an administrative problem, and I would far rather see an ad hoc Committee, consisting of men anxious to do justice, who would give effect to the spirit of the Act which we pass, instead of going so much by the letter. Let me give an illustration of the sort of thing that has been going on. It is quite legal, and you must have it if you go to a legal tribunal. We have now got to this position, that, if you take on a new tenant, and charge him the rent authorised by the Ace, that is wrong, and you will have to give him back the increase in the rent. What you have to do is to take bun on at the 1914 rent, give him notice to quit, and then serve him with a notice of the increase in rent. That sort of thing is very harassing to the layman. It ought to be stopped, and I think it could be stopped by an ad hoc Committee.
I am not alone in suggesting that. Judge Parry, a very experienced County Court Judge, has said that he could settle nearly all the cases that come before him in a few minutes, by talking to the parties and putting the respective points of view to them. I myself, if I may obtrude a personal note for a moment, regularly have to settle many of these cases week by week, and I have found in the majority of cases that both landlord and tenant say, "We only want what is fair." They are satisfied if you give them what is fair, and they really do not want all this paraphernalia of Courts and legal advisers. I am speaking quite disinterestedly because I am in the profession which will suffer most if this reform takes place. I suggest that Judge Parry is right in saying that this thing could be settled by an administrative body without going to the Courts and without going to the expense of legal advisers, because the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) was quite right. If a man goes to the County Court to-day without legal advice he is at an enormous disadvantage. There are all sorts of cases and all sorts of pitfalls and be cannot be up to them. That is a mistake. I should like to see all questions under this Act dealt with without costing anyone a penny. There might be an impartial Committee, as under the National Service Act, and the whole work for Londoners could be done in three or four days. There would be nothing to prevent a dispute between landlord and tenant being absolutely disposed of in a week. That is a very desirable state of things, and I hope the Government will do something to have a committee or some other tribunal instead of County Courts to deal with the matter.
There is another criticism I want to pass on the Act, if it is not too late. Reference by legislation is always objectionable. This Bill gives it in the most accentuated form, because you are dealing with a principal Act which has baffled and bothered every Judge who has tried to interpret it. I do not agree with all that has been said about draftsmanship. I have often said to people who laugh at a Bill and say it is badly drafted, "Take a pen and paper and draft something better." It is astonishing what a muddle they make of it. You are dealing with an antiquated law system, with various complications, and it is not easy to sit down and draft a, new Clause. The Act is extremely complicated. We have dozens of cases in the Law Reports telling us what it means, and now the Government are giving us, not a new Bill, but an amendment of the old Bill, with all sorts of references to the old Act. How many tenants can understand it? It will be puzzling enough to the lawyers. I am bewildered myself, and I see these Acts every day. Might it not be possible at an early date to have a Consolidating Bill incorporating the judicial decisions in as plain language as possible, so as to give every one a chance of understanding what the Act means?
Passing from that and dealing with a few detailed provisions for the purpose of showing objections to the Bill as a Bill, may I call attention to what the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb) called the loopholes in it? I was amazed when I read certain portions of it. Under Sub-section (1) of Clause 2, if the owner is in possession or comes into possession of a dwelling house he gets a house which is uncontrolled. Why should he? He may come into possession because the tenant dies, or the tenant may be too poor to pay the rent and moves away. He may have been a harsh landlord, who has not given consideration to the tenant, and has got an order for possession, which a more generous landlord would not have tried to get. Orders for possession are made by the dozen in London and look what premium you are going to put upon a landlord in these hard times to go to the County Court and try to get possession of the house instead of giving time to the tenant. That is a blemish in the Bill which will lead to a large number of houses becoming decontrolled for purely adventitious reasons. If the Government desire to say "we do not like full control for two years, and we desire intermediate control," let them say so in plain language that we can understand. I do not believe the Government do quite mean that, but that will be the effect of it. You will have a large number of landlords, who would never go to the County Court otherwise, going now to try to get possession. Might I clear up a point which both the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney) and the hon. Member for Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) seemed to be under a misapprehension about? They think that if you have a tenant in arrears for rent you can get an order for possession on the ground that he has committed a breach. When I interrupted the hon. Member for South Shields he ridiculed the idea that there was anything in the Judge's discretion. He said, "We know what that sort of thing is. What effect does it have? "To my own personal knowledge that discretion is acted upon every day in case after case in London. It is absurd to say that because there is a technical breach by the tenant he can get possession to-day. It is equally absurd to say the landlord is sure of his rent to-day because the Judge does not now ordinarily turn out on the ground of arrears of rent. He makes an order for payment of 2s. a week or something of that sort. Incidentally, the old right of distress, which was the old security for the landlord, has entirely gone.
In Sub-section (2) of Clause 2 there is another loophole. If a lease or tenancy agreement is granted for a day after 24th June, 1925, the house is decontrolled. Again, why should that be so? Landlords will be going to tenants and saying, "I will give you a form of agreement, say, for 25th June, 1925 "—the day after. The effect of giving that extra day will be to take the house out of the Act and the landlord can charge anything he likes. It would be reasonable enough to have some such provision if the lease was for 7, 14 or 21 years, but to take a house out of the Act when the lease is only for one day after the period of control is surely not a justifiable provision, and it will lend itself as an instrument of oppression on the part of the landlord. The bulk of the tenants are not legally advised. They will not read the Bill, and if they do they will probably not understand it, and the landlord will say, "There is the Rent Act. I cannot get you out. You are a bit in arrear with your rent, but I will give you an agreement for a, couple of years, up to 25th June, 1925, and I must charge you so much "—a good deal more than the statutory rent. Many a tenant will fall into the trap and will sign the agreement for the sake of getting security. I hope the Government will take out that Clause, which is thoroughly pernicious.
There is another loophole in paragraph (f) of Clause 3. According to that if the landlord became the landlord before 31st June, 1922, he can get possession without showing alternative accommodation. That means that a man who can afford to buy a house, and has bought it, will be able to turn out the man who is inside possibly because he cannot afford to buy a house. Yet the tenant may want the house as badly as the landlord. He may be a man with a large family, while the landlord has a small one. It will not matter. Under the paragraph the landlord has a right to possession without showing alternative accommodation. Under the next paragraph if the landlord became the landlord on or after 30th June, 1922, and the Court is satisfied that greater hardship would be caused by refusing to grant the Order than if they grant it. I do not see why that should go. I quite agree with the Minister of Health in his contention that he must do something to help people who have bought houses and cannot get possession. There are many very hard cases, but the provision in paragraph (f) is not the way in which to proceed. There should at least be an obligation on the landlord to prove that greater hardship will be caused by refusing it than by granting it.
Another point I should like to call attention to is the definition of alternative accommodation. That has been entirely altered. There is no provision as to rent. It must be alternative accommodation reasonably suitable to the needs of the tenant, but there is nothing about rent, and, especially if we are going to leave the Act in the hands of the Courts for interpretation, it is vital to have in a provision as to rent, otherwise the Courts will not be able to consider it. May I also point out what I think must be a little slip in Clause 10. There is a provision that the amount to be attributed to the use of furniture or attendance must be a substantial amount. I agree to that, but ingenious persons who have evaded the former Act by a. minimum of service or use of furniture will be able to evade the Clause, if it is not amended, by giving a very small amount of furniture or attendance. I hope that will be taken into account.
From my own experience it is often impossible to know what the standard rent is. We are going back nine years. The original landlord cannot be found and the original tenant cannot be found, and I have found case after case in which it is impossible to prove exactly what the standard rent is. The Government might see if they cannot give some definition of standard rent which will be more up to date and which will not want us to go searching back nine years in order to find out the original rent. It is difficult to suggest anything offhand, and I do not do it, but I put it forward for their consideration whether they could give us a new definition of standard rent or, say, an alternative definition, or, at any rate, make some provision for those cases in which it is not possible now to know what the standard rent was. I hope the Government will drop Part II of the Bill. So far as I can see, it gives us Rent Courts in the very worst form. Under the first Clause the County Court-Judge can practically decide what the rent shall be. Certainly far more power is given him in deciding the rent than it is desirable to give to a judicial tribunal. But it does not stop there. He is to be assisted by Boards of Referees, and this may happen. You go to the County Court to fix the rent. It is referred to the Referees. You go to them and they make a report which is not binding on the Judge, and then you attend the County Court again in order to argue whether the report shall be carried out or not. As I understand it, if anyone under Part II has a dispute with his landlord as to the reasonable rent he might have to instruct counsel three times before he got a decision. It is not for me to argue against that if the House seriously contemplates it, but I think it is a most undesirable provision. It is unnecessary at the moment, and if we come to the question of establishing Rent Courts we can do it in some much better fashion than the hybrid arrangement in Part II of the Bill.
8.0 P.M.
I should like to bring one subject to the notice of the Minister and the House. I should like to ask him to refer to Clause 3 of the Bill, paragraph (e), in which an Amendment of the principal Act is proposed relating to the employment of men engaged in the cultivation of farms. Under the principal Act this Clause has worked very badly and has formed the subject of a good deal of oppression. I do not want to go into the very vexed question of tied cottages on farms. I do not believe in tied cottages on farms, but so long as the cottages on the farm have been constructed for the special service of the farm I have very little to say. This Bill, however, goes very much further. During the past years it has been a regular custom in some parts of the country, and very largely in my own district, for farmers to purchase cottages in the villages, cottages which have never been used for farm purposes before, and then to make an application under the Act. The Act is quite wide enough to deal with cottages in villages, and it does not state specifically that they have to be cottages on farms. The farmer having bought a cottage in a village, makes an application to the agricultural committee and obtains a certificate that possession of the cottage is necessary as a residence for a man whom the farmer has engaged, and who would otherwise in all probability have lived in a free cottage in the village. He then takes the certificate to the magistrates' court—which is very often composed of the same people who have given the decision as members of the County Agricultural Committee—and the order is confirmed and the occupant is evicted.
That ought to be altered, but so far from altering it the present Bill widens it. The Bill deals not only with the man who is engaged but who is to be engaged. That makes the Bill a terrible engine of oppression, and I hope the House will never contemplate the carrying of this paragraph into effect. It is very bad at the present time, and I hope the Minister will so amend the Bill as to prescribe that only cottages on farms that have been built for the service and purpose of the farms shall be used for the purpose of this Section, and not cottages in villages purchased subsequently, some during the War. I would not deal with any cottages purchased before 1914. If before 1914 they have been used for farm purposes, I would let them continue. Since that date, however, a farmer should not be permitted to claim cottages in villages as necessary for the housing of men for cultivating his farm. If he has not sufficient accommodation on his farm, then let him build it, or let his landlord build it, but do not let him diminish the already short cottage accommodation in the villages, and do not let us provide machinery by this Bill to enable the farmer to get possession of such cottages.
It may be said that this is a fancy case, but I assure the House that it is not. The right hon. Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) discussed the question of courts, and referred to the County Court and the Court of Summary Jurisdiction. In the country districts the Court of Summary Jurisdiction is probably the easiest method of proceeding. I have known judgments in the Court of Summary Jurisdiction which have refused possession of a house three times, and when the case has been carried to the County Court the decision of the magistrates has been reversed. I should like to draw attention to a case which was recently heard in the Spilsby court in Lincolnshire. It was the case of an ex-service man who was sued by a farmer for possession of a cottage in which he had been living since 1917. The man declared that the cottage had never been used as a farm cottage. I have here a report of the case, which occurred in April. The chairman of the bench said they could not go behind the certificate granted by the County Court Agricultural Committee, as they had had the full facts before them. He did not know his business, because the Court had power to suspend the order. The man bitterly resenting being turned out. He said he was a discharged soldier, that he had been shot through the head, that he was blinded in one eye, and that he was entitled to shelter in Great Britain. The Chairman, in conclusion, said that their hands as justices were absolutely tied by the machinery set up by Act of Parliament and by rules of procedure. He said that all they had to do was to see that the facts were correctly stated and proved, and that being so, they were simply there to administer the Act. He said the certificate was in order, and therefore they had no option but to make the order asked for.
I do not regard that as a monument to the capacity of the magistrates in question, but I do want to make it impossible for magistrates or county agricultural committees to give certificates and for orders to be granted for the ejection of tenants from houses that were not originally built for farm purposes, but which have been recently purchased in the villages. The taking of these cottages makes the whole housing question in the villages much worse. The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) described the state of affairs in Scotland. In the rural districts we could find many parallels to the cases which he mentioned, of houses which are occupied although they are not fit to put pigs in. They are occupied simply because there is no alternative to their habitation.
This is a very serious state of affairs, and I beg the Minister to take it into account, and to so amend the Bill that it cannot be used by men who possess wealth and who desire to purchase houses in villages and then, on the ground that they are required for accommodation of their own men, apply to the agricultural committee, obtain a certificate, go to the magistrates and get an order for the ejection of the occupants. That should not be allowed. This House should take care that the Bill is so altered that it cannot be used as a vehicle for the removal of a man from his cottage, or, as very frequently happens, as an engine of oppression.
I should like to deal briefly with the point raised by the hon. Member who has just sat down. With due deference to him, I say that he has exaggerated the case. I cannot conceive such a case. Such cases certainly do not exist in the two counties with which I am particularly familiar.
I have quoted a report, and it is at the service of the hon. Member.
Imagine the case of a farmer who is improving his land, and who desires to take on more men. A cottage in the village, which I presume is an agricultural village, becomes vacant, and the farmer wants it, both in the interests of the farm and in the interests of agriculture. I cannot imagine why he should not be allowed to have it. If, with a view to getting more intensive cultivation, he requires more men on the land, I cannot see why he should not be able to acquire a cottage or cottages in a neighbouring village for the purpose of housing his men. I hope that the Bill will not be amended in the way suggested by the hon. Member. To the agricultural community as a whole this is one Amendment for which they very strongly ask. Whatever may be the position in Lincolnshire, taking the country generally, it will not be found that there is any hardship likely to occur under the Bill in this respect. On the other hand, the case will be met where a man wants to come and work on a farm and he cannot get there because there is no cottage accommodation. Therefore, the whole work of the farm is being held up. With this provision he will be able to go to the farm, because arrangements can be made for housing him. With due deference to the hon. Member, who has great knowledge of agriculture and can speak for the district in which he lives, I say that he cannot speak generally for agriculture on these lines.
I rose principally as one of those who served on what is known as the Onslow Committee, and I realise at once the extraordinary difficulty of the question we are up against. That Committee sat for a very considerable time. We called before us a very large amount of evidence. We had both oral evidence and written evidence. We had, I think, over 4,000 letters, but we could only get the lines of suggestions which those letters indicated. We had the chance of hearing evidence from tenants' organisations, property owners' organisations and other organisations. In the main, the tenants' organisations wanted the continuance of control, and, in the main, the property owners' organisations, naturally, wanted treatment on other lines. We had most useful, careful and considered evidence given from such bodies as the Surveyors' Institution, all bodies well qualified to speak. They were able to take a middle position between what I may call, not in a hostile sense, the two contending parties, and, especially in the case of the Surveyors' Institution, they were able to exercise a calm and dispassionate judgment. We found very clearly that such bodies as the Surveyors' Institution urged that decontrol should be brought about as soon as possible. We have been talking this evening of the question of rents, but the question of rent is controlled by the question of houses. If there were plenty of houses, the difficulty about rents which arises through the difficulty caused by the shortage of houses would not arise in the same way. I am speaking more for England and Wales, because we found in the Committee that as regards Scotland there were different conditions. So far as England and Wales are concerned, the Surveyors' Institution, with its large number of members spread over England and Wales, were in a position to give very sound and useful evidence.
It is very satisfactory to the Members of the Committee to realise that the Government has adopted a very considerable number of the recommendations we put forward. Those recommendations were not put forward in any spirit of trying to get advantage for one class or the other. Every Member of the Committee sat there day after day endeavouring, after hearing very conflicting views, to arrive at some via media whereby the difficulty of the situation could be met. The Bill must be considered to a certain extent as a compromise. It does not meet the wishes of the property-owners who in many case's, especially in regard to the small owners, have undoubtedly suffered most severely under the restrictions of the Act. It is also quite clear that it does not meet for one moment the wishes of the tenants' bodies we had before us, such as the War Rents League, and the Scottish Labour Housing Association. The Bill as a whole is the best that could be produced at the present time. It has been interesting, listening to this Debate, to realise how easy it is to pick holes in a Bill like this. That only shows more clearly the extreme difficulty of the situation. We have to realise that, so far as houses are concerned, the building of what we might call working-class houses is not a paying proposition, and unless it becomes a paying proposition—taking it for granted that we on this side of the House stand for the encouragement of private enterprise—we shall not get the houses built. Therefore, those who advocate decontrol as soon as possible advocate it from the broad point of view that, if you are going to get back confidence in an industry which before the War provided 95 per cent. of the houses, you want to give a definite understanding as to the date, etc., when decontrol is likely to come to pass.
We took the view, following again the suggestions which we had before us by the Surveyors' Institute, that a system of decontrol by stages was the right course to take. I know that the proposal when it appeared in print was subject to very violent criticism, and, of course, what are called the middle-class tenants took strong objection to it. When we advocated that policy we never did it with any idea of putting one class against another. But we did find that there was a type of house being built into which a better type of family could move, and we felt that, by decontrol of this house, with the confidence gained, you would have more of that type of house built, and therefore there would be an upward movement to a better class of house which would automatically result in greater freedom for those looking for the lower type of house and so help the working classes. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] That was what was at the back of our mind when we advocated that proposal, but the suggestion that our Committee was in that way declaring war on middle-class tenants is incorrect. We accepted the policy of gradual decontrol believing that in the difficult circumstances in which housing was being carried on to-day that was the right way in which to start the scheme. At any rate, the Government have not thought fit to take up that policy and I am prepared to abide by their decision.
But we do come back to the fact that to build working-class houses as such is not a proposition into which money is likely to be put unless there is confidence that those who invest their money are likely to see a return for it. That is the key to the whole situation, which we have to face to-day, because if it is not going to be done by private enterprise the only other alternative—and that was the alternative put before us by practically all the tenants' organisations—is to build houses by public bodies out of public money. I believe that I am right in saying that experience shows that private enterprise can build at something like 25 per cent. more cheaply than public bodies. At least I have that from one of the highest organisations in this land, and I am prepared to abide by their estimate. If that be so, one sees at once what an enormous saving could be effected in this way. In discussing these matters, when we advocated decontrol by stages, we adopted as the date of final decontrol very much the approximate date which the Government have adopted.
Another point on which the Government have adopted the recommendations of our Committee is to give that relief to the one house owner which he so desires, because the one house owner has been in many cases—we have received an extraordinary number of letters on this point— treated very harshly, when he found that he could not occupy the house for which he had paid, and was living often in a worse house than the man who was in his house, or living in rooms or sometimes only in one room. I hope that the Government will stand firmly on this Clause, and see that this relief is given. In this Bill there is a great deal of detail for discussion which must be settled in Committee. In common with others, I do not approve of Part II. I say this on the very broad lines that if we are going to get the houses we must give confidence to those who have got to build, and give them to understand exactly when they will be free from Government control of every sort. I think that Part II will produce an element of uncertainty as to the future which will have a serious effect on the building of houses. If it does, the whole policy which we advocate, more houses and better houses for our people as a whole, will not mature in the way we wish. Therefore Part II wants careful consideration by the Government, because anything which at the present time in any way hinders what I think is a slight feeling of confidence on the part of those who have built houses in the past, and who hope to do so again is likely to hinder the general progress of houses in the future.
I realise the difficulty of the situation, and I believe that the Government have brought forward a scheme which, though by no means perfect, is the best scheme that they could bring forward in the present situation, and while there are many points which want careful consideration in Committee, I hope that they will stand by the Bill as they have brought it in, with the exception of Part II. I am certain that, if they do, they will give encouragement to those who are prepared to build. We shall get the houses, and we shall get more freedom in the choice of houses, and the man with the choice of house is in a much better position than the man who to-day is hunting for a house and cannot find one, and who is to a certain extent, where there are bad landlords, at the mercy of those landlords. A lot has been said for the tenants to-day, and I realise fully the interest of the tenants, but I am certain that there are many small landlords who suffer very severely under the Rent Restrictions Acts, and they deserve consideration just in the same way as, in common with everyone on this side, we want to see it given to the tenants.
I wish to deal with some statements made by the Minister of Health. He made a pathetic reference to certain experiences which he had while engaged in slum work in Birmingham. In the slums in Birmingham he discovered that the people when discussing their conditions never spoke about their sad surroundings. They never seemed to realise that they were denied all that makes life beautiful and happy. He said that the only thing they ever discussed with him was the bad repairs of their houses or the things that are called houses in slum areas. On the basis of many years' experience of children, through work on the education authority of Glasgow, I wish to draw attention to certain points. It is true that this is a Bill dealing with rents and mortgages. Throughout the discussion there has been brought in nearly every point of view of adult life, but, so far, the point of view of the life of the child has not been mentioned. I ask hon. Members to try to visualise what life in a slum means. The question of repairs is mentioned in the Bill. What relation has that to child life? I want to tell hon. Members what relation a worn stair has to child life. The Bill does not say definitely what the state of repair of a dwelling is to be. It does not say whether a part of the railing of the stairs may be broken and yet be considered quite safe for the passage of children up the stairs, or whether the worn stair shall be worn from its level a certain distance. What was found in Glasgow, after years of experiment, was that the medical men in the employment of the education authority could tell from the mentality of the; child whether that child had to ascend and descend daily stairs that were badly worn, just in the same way as those same medical men could tell whether the child was wearing boots too much worn at the heels.
The question of repairs necessarily is linked with the question of the child's life. If this Bill is to be effective at all it must take into consideration the life of the nation, and the life of any nation is the future of its children. We have had a statement made by the Minister of Health, in which he admits in pathetic tones, great as he may claim our Empire to be, that hundreds of thousands of people, because of the housing conditions, because of lack of contact with real and natural life, can see only as far as the broken hinge or handle of a door. If this Bill seeks, as the primary effort was to seek, to get a way out of the difficulty that the War placed upon us, we must take a full view both of adult and child life. In Glasgow quite recently we had reported to the education authority the fact that in a thing called a house, measuring 8 ft. by 8 ft., were 12 persons. Yet there is not one thing in the Bill which says definitely what standard of repairs is to be observed. It says that a Court shall decide. I have attended many Courts on such questions. It is not from a Court that you get a standard of repairs. What you get from any such Court is a standard of knowledge, or lack of knowledge, of the conditions under which people live. We have been told that, in spite of all these degrading con- ditions, the nation can see no escape from the continued degradation of the people in relation to housing conditions unless a solution is made to pay. The last speaker said that unless private enterprise could make a profit out of the fact that people, and children especially, require decent conditions of life, there could be no solution.
What is there great in a nation that places profit before child life? What excuse can any nation that claims to be Christian offer for a Bill like this? What excuse can be given for the fact that men claiming to be civilised come forward with a Bill that leaves out of consideration everything that goes to build up a great and strong nation? We have heard something from hon. Members opposite on the question of the spiritual side. How can you have a spiritual side developed under such conditions as were described by the Minister of Health to-day? There can never be any true spiritual conception, apart altogether from a true conception of what citizenship should be, while people are housed like pigs. In the Clauses referred to by an hon. Member opposite we have a clear demonstration how in every instance there are loopholes in the Bill. I admit quite frankly the difficulties in drawing up a Bill in legal form so as to prevent loopholes. But I have helped to draw up Regulations in connection with certain local powers 61 education authorities, and they have been framed in plain language that could be understood by the people receiving them. Certain local regulations of the Glasgow education authority had to be sent out to the poorest in the city. We could always find the language that made them plain to everyone.
In this Bill you have a mass of legal technicalities. Put them into the average household, and what will you find I Absolute astonishment! All this arises from the fact that the great Government of Great Britain is putting the cart before the horse. What we ought to have been discussing to-day, had we been sane as a Government, was not how to make things easier for the slum dweller, but the fact that we have neglected to build houses in sufficient numbers to shelter all the people. What stands between this great nation, and what in the last four years has stood between this great nation and its housing supply? The fact that it has not paid private enterprise to build houses. Because a particular class could not have profits, another class is to be denied the natural and divine right to proper shelter.
Had they been serious, as a Government, they would not now be faced with the situation which exists as regards building materials. I say without fear of contradiction that those who control building materials control the Government, if we are to judge from the Bills brought before us recently dealing with the question of housing. Of the £6 subsidy, half has already been absorbed by advances in light castings, cement and bricks. Three pounds out of the £6 has already gone and should this Bill go through, all the regulations that it contains will not prevent in any single way, any of these serious hardships which still affect the people who are living in the far-down conditions I have mentioned. Coming back to the question of repairs, had the Government been serious in that matter they would have said at once who is to decide that question. They always refuse to come to any definite statement about which there can be no doubt. I suggest that even now, in this Bill an alteration should be made providing that whatever notice is served by the owner of a house on the tenant, shall be in language so plain that no matter what the condition of the tenant may be, he will be able to understand it. I have observed smiles in this House when suggestions of that kind are made and, it may be, that the hon. Members who smile have not been in the habit of having to come down to the language of the people.
The only way in which you are going to save the people who are still liable to suffer as a result of the loopholes left in this Bill, is by giving them at least that direct protection which can be given by this House, and if it is given it will save not only unnecessary misery to the tenants, but a great deal of expense and waste of time in the public Courts. In conclusion, let me say that, had this nation, through its Government, been serious on the question of housing, it would not have stopped anywhere. Whatever land was found to be the best on which to build houses would have been taken by the Government, and whatever trusts or combinations militated against the provision of houses for the people would have been swept aside. Housing would have been carried out no matter what stood in the way. If the Government were—what they are not—sincere men desiring to see this a great nation, they would not go down to their graves with this blemish which will be for ever upon their characters, that they never once raised their voices on behalf of the children who suffer under the horrible conditions we have heard described. While they prate from their lips about the sacredness of motherhood, about the relation of the child to the home and about the home as a unit, they will go down in history as men who did everything possible to keep back and to deny the natural divine right of the citizens of Britain to have that which, by their birth, they are entitled to possess.
I think the House will agree that it is not desirable to follow the line taken by the last speaker in dealing with such a difficult and technical subject as rent restrictions. If I were to follow the line which the hon. Member has taken on the ideals involved in this matter and the general difficulties, I would be quite prepared to go a long way with him as regards the pathos of these existing conditions and also as regards some of his suggestions— for instance, that with regard to simplifying the notices to tenants, and coming down to the level of the less educated as well as the better educated among the working class. These points, however, are by the way. I want the hon. Member, and those who work with him, to recognise that we, on this side of the House, taken generally, are as keen as hon. Members in any other part of the House, taking them generally, to find out in what way we can surmount the housing difficulty, but you cannot get over it by platitudes, however warmly expressed or however fervently felt. When you come to deal with the housing difficulty and the rent restriction question you must recognise facts and those only are qualified to deal with the question who recognise that at the present time the great majority of houses are provided by private enterprise.
At the same time, we must use municipal enterprise as well wherever we possibly can. Whatever may be our ideas as to the future, we want to get both private enterprise and municipal enterprise working together now, as hard as they possibly can to cope with this situation. I agree, to a large extent, with what has been said that, whether we are using private enterprise or municipal enterprise, we are very largely in the hands of the makers and sellers of building materials, but you cannot get out of it. There is the system, and the only alternative is a system of State slavery which compels people to work and produce at definite limited prices. That is the system of Bolshevist Russia, and do not forget there is nothing between the two alternatives. What we want at the moment, however, is to get the best we can out of all the agencies at our command. Experience of a State housing scheme has conclusively shown that when the State undertakes the provision of any article—it certainly applies to housing— the State is liable to be plundered right and left. Those who plunder it are not limited to any one class; they are not limited to the masters nor limited to the men. That plunder is limited only by the conscience of the individual and of the class in each case. The State scheme in this instance came to an end very largely because the State was being plundered. I do not say that it is impossible to devise a scheme, embodying State assistance, under which the State will not be plundered, but it is up to the party who are so keen on State schemes to propose such a scheme—a scheme under which you can prevent the State from being plundered without having the Bolshevist system of duress and slavery. We have yet to see such a scheme and we, on this side, do not believe such a scheme can be produced.
The hon. and gallant Member seems to be trying to imply that I was bringing forward a Bolshevist scheme, and he is making use of the word "Bolshevist "as though I had mentioned it. I was speaking on the moral aspect of the situation, and if that is a party question the hon. and gallant Member might at least leave out the word "Bolshevist,"
The hon. Member will recollect that I said I agreed largely with him on the moral aspect of the question, but that when you came down to actual bedrock, you had in practice only two systems. I referred to the Bolshevist theory using the word "Bolshevist "in its best sense to describe the theory advanced by the thinkers who hold those views. That is a question of theory. We have got to bring forward private enterprise and help it if we can, and that is how we approached the matter in the Onslow Committee. In that Committee we came from different sides, with different experiences, all of us, I think, with considerable experience in our respective lines, to try and meet the situation that was facing us, and we had to try to see in what way we could come together to get an agreed Report. Over and over again we had to abandon or modify our position on either side, to see if we could not get an agreed Report. We agreed to a very large extent, but eventually the essential point which, I think, determined the necessity of a Minority Report was the question of the date of decontrol. The question is a very definite one, going to the root of the whole matter dealt with in this Bill. The Onslow Committee as a whole said they thought the sooner decontrol could take place the better, but, inasmuch as they felt that it could not take place at once, and that the community, private enterprise as well as tenants and landlords, had got to be gradually accustomed to it, they recommended decontrol in three steps—the first step a small number of houses in 1923, the second step, still a small number of houses, in 1924, and the last step in 1925.
On the other hand, our colleagues from the Labour Benches asked for decontrol in 1930. It is an extremely difficult thing to say, but my own feeling, which resulted in a private Minority Report, in which I was in a minority of one, was that you could not possibly get so rapid a decontrol as was suggested by the Majority Report, for this reason, that control has come about gradually. People seem to think that control came about rapidly, because it began with a definite Act, but a definite Act takes effect only by degrees and produces the effect of limitation only year by year as new contracts have to be set up. So you have the decontrol which was instituted at the beginning of the War gradually becoming more and more effective, settling down on the whole housing system, until it had established itself more and more deeply. If it went on, it would take another 50 years to get complete control of the housing sys- tern, but it was getting deeper, and it was engendering, therefore, greater loss of confidence in the freedom of the housing market and of private enterprise in building. That control must go on until you get houses produced in order to take the place of the houses that are controlled, to give enough freedom to decontrol, and the houses under the late State scheme have not been produced in sufficient quantities yet to get free mobility in the provision of houses. They have merely met, possibly, the needs of the War years, and we are still in arrears.
We hope the other Bill that is passing through Committee upstairs will produce a greater supply of houses, so that you may be able to catch up with your demands and get level with them, but it will take some time. Until you do that, however, you will have hardships, and, as the Minister said in his opening speech, there you have the real division of opinion. Shall you wait until you are able to meet all possible hardships and get a sufficient supply for all possible needs, or are you going to shut your eyes to those hardships and, by inflicting those hardships, thereby be increasing the demand and the will of the individual to supply houses? That last is a brutal doctrine as stated baldly, but there is this much of truth in it. If people be firmly ensconced in their houses, whether rightly or wrongly, by which I mean whether they are injuring the owner or not by their possession under the protection of the law, they naturally enough are making no effort to get out, and over the whole length and breadth of the country you have an enormous number of people who are definitely ensconced in safety, overcrowded very often, certainly crowded to a terrible extent, but feeling that they are safe and, therefore, that they need not take any initiative in trying to find or provide houses for themselves.
The question of overcrowding, I am afraid, is one that people do not object to so much as I, as a sanitarian, should wish them to. I am afraid a great deal of the work of us medical officers of health is caused by the fact that people, for psychological and general reasons, get used to overcrowding just as they get used to wrong habits of any kind. The body is essentially adaptable, and they can get used to crowding together in a two- or three-roomed cabin, such as miners some- times prefer, or even to a small cabin on board ship to which sailors are used. They get used to it. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not all."] They get used to it, and it is very difficult, therefore, naturally enough, to get them out of it. A very large number of people who get used to it may object, one way or the other, but say it is not worth while troubling, and there is no initiative to alter it.
Has the hon. and gallant Gentleman any experience of miners in the congested areas—and there are plenty?
I think I may meet that by saying that I have the highest experience of all, intimate knowledge of the experience of medical officers of health for the mining counties. If I may say so, professionally, it is one's duty to know the conditions in other counties and surroundings.
rose
I cannot give way simply because an hon. Member objects to other people being quoted. Everyone knows that people get accustomed to these things. Although there is a great desire on the part of many of them to improve their housing conditions, they naturally feel it is not worth while to move.
rose
When a Member is in possession of the House, he can only be interrupted by his own consent.
I think it would really not add to the lucidity of my remarks if I gave way to the hon. Member, although I shall he very glad to hear him afterwards.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman makes a charge against a class, and then passes on.
I think it will be better to wait until the hon. and gallant Gentleman sits down.
I am very glad the hon. Gentleman made the remark he did, because I must disown that. I made no charge against any class. I specifically said it applied equally to every class.]
You said the miners desired to be overcrowded.
There are certain conditions to which, naturally, they get used, to a certain extent, but not entirely. Therefore, I say decontrol will have a certain very definite effect in helping towards the provision of houses. Decontrol by stages is proposed. I venture to introduce a third proposal, and that is the principle of allowing a good deal of local variation, according to local needs, and at the option or decision of the local authority. I believe this may still be required in the latter stages of decontrol. A great deal of exception has been taken to Part II. My own criticism of that is that it is a legal question. I do not know enough about the County Courts to say, but it does seem to me that the work of the Courts may be extremely overloaded with regard to Part II. I do not know whether that is so or not, but whatever proposals are made in order to complete the stages of decontrol, I do think it will be necessary to take some note of the fact that local conditions vary, and there should be some possibility of meeting the difficulties by giving a certain amount of independent power of decision to the larger local authorities. Therefore, in the Report of the Onslow Committee I suggested that power should be given to the councils of larger areas, the county boroughs and cities, or the county councils acting for the whole or part of their area, if they wished it, to decontrol in their particular area. I think it is a suggestion that might reasonably be thought over.
Housing is a matter which for a long time has been in the hands of local authorities. It is a definite local industry. There is not much communication between one city and another with regard to it, and, therefore, I believe it is for each locality to say whether it is in a position to decontrol or not. We had it in evidence before our Committee that certain boroughs were already prepared to get decontrol. On the other hand, there are certain others which will not be ripe for it for some considerable time, and certainly on the Clyde and in London it would be very difficult and wrong to decontrol swiftly, or in the near future. I believe there is a good case to be made out for some variation to be given to local authorities, and, although it cannot be put into the Bill as it stands, if any other Bill has to be brought in before the final stages of decontrol, I think there will be a case for considering some kind of local variation.
We have just been listening to a remarkable speech, like those speeches to which we have been listening on the Housing Bill upstairs. The hon. and gallant Gentleman talks about people being used to overcrowding, and by that he means satisfied with it.
Not satisfied.
That they get satisfied with the conditions under which they live.
No—discontented with them.
9.0 P.M
I can tell the hon. and gallant Gentleman a different tale. I live in a district where many houses have been built by the local authority, but not nearly sufficient, and I get letters every day complaining of houses being let to the wrong people. That will obtain until there is a sufficiency of houses. People in the neighbourhood in which I have lived all my life detest apartments, and will be glad to get out of them if they can. The hon. Member talks about private enterprise. There have been many men in the building trade unemployed for five years. Building house property to-day to let at a rental is not a paying proposition, and for that reason private enterprise is going to do nothing unless it is to build houses to sell. It must be the local authority and the local authority only. I am surprised at the arguments which have been used when one remembers the War through which we have just passed, when the Government put everybody aside, and simply took the business on themselves. They had to do it to get through, and yet men now come forward and use argument to show that Government control and municipalities can do nothing. It had to be done, and it was done.
I must come to the points of the Bill. The Minister of Health has my sympathy. I think the Government are overworking the Minister of Health. He has got a Committee upstairs where we have had pages of Amendments, many of which are still to be dealt with. As soon as the Housing Bill is finished, the Minister will have to take this on, and I venture to say this Bill is such that there will be pages of Amendments again, so that I think he is very hard-worked indeed. I have been in this House since 1918, and it is remarkable the number of Bills connected with housing with which we have been called upon to deal in that time. If at the beginning a well thought out scheme of housing had been brought forward, we should have had houses, and Bills of this sort would have been unnecessary; but we have been simply tinkering with the thing all the way through, and this Bill does exactly the same. In every line we find the Government is not in agreement with control. Their heart is not in this Bill at all. What they want is decontrol, and they have only kept control in as far as they think it will be safe from the standpoint of the country. Outside of that, they have put in all sorts of loopholes to enable people to get their property out of control even before 1925. No one knows better than the Minister of Health that in 1925 we shall be in practically the position we are to-day. [An HON. MEMBER: "Worse! "] Yes, and I am not sure it will not be worse. I suppose the Government think that by giving two years' notice, it will be sufficient time to prepare the minds of the people for the change that is to take place, and that it will be safer to get decontrol then, because for two years the people will have known that there was to be decontrol. I know no other object than that. The Government have gone just as far as they think they are bound to go for the safety of the country, and no further.
There are other points. Take the case of empty houses, and we have had many of them for a very long time. When the Housing Bills were before the last Parliament, we tried to get empty houses under the control of the local authorities, so that they could take them over, and let them if the landlord would not let them, because he was waiting for a sale price. Of course, we have many of these houses to-day, and the Government now come forward and say, "We quite approve of that, and because you have kept them empty, you have done a good thing, and you shall have them outside this Bill altogether." So that they are commended for having kept their houses empty. Then there are houses decontrolled which may become empty. There will be all sorts of dodges to get vacant possession, so that houses can be taken outside this Bill. I venture to say that all sorts of schemes will be adopted to get them empty for a single day, and then very likely the same people may go back to them, being only too glad to do so, because of not being able to get houses elsewhere. It is simply an encouragement to the landlord to get his houses as soon as I possible outside of this Bill. Take again Clause 3. A man can obtain possession for himself, and so on. This is about the broadest Clause that I have seen for a long time. It leaves practically the whole community for the landlord to bring forward and ask for possession for. It reads: It leaves the same hardship. That is why we object to it! What we do want is houses. If we had houses we should not be talking on this Rent Restriction Bill. These are what we want and have not got. If a well-thought-out scheme had been put into operation at the early time when matters were first spoken about and the subject first mooted, and local authorities then had been given to understand where they stood, matters, I believe, would have been different, and we should probably have had the houses we need. That is the only cure for this sort of thing—to get houses.
Clause 13 deals with the reduction of rent, and it says that a tenant may go before the County Court Judge. That is a very plausible-looking Clause. It reminds me of a person who comes forward in a plausible manner and you subsequently find that you have been had by him. This Clause is put into the Bill as a safeguard to the tenant, and it looks very well indeed; but I do not believe it will serve any useful purpose. I cannot but think that not more than one tenant out of 10,000 is likely to take his case before a County Court Judge. Say the landlord imposed a higher rent than he thought was right, he would object to it, or might on the score that the landlord had not done any repairs. He would go before the County Court Judge. But fear would shut out a large number of people, and the costs would prevent the rest of them. There are very few tenants who would appear before the County Court Judge unless represented by some legal person, and the costs for that would be heavy, and if they won their case, it would possibly be years before they got back the difference between the decreased rent and the costs of the legal action. I can understand the Minister saying when we object to this: "Very well, we will have this Clause out of the Bill." So far as I am concerned I am prepared for that, because I believe it is no use at all, and will not help a single tenant in the country. There is one other point on which I wish to deal. I will endeavour to be more thoughtful than others in that respect because others desire to get up.
Clause 14 deals with regulations as to reference committees. The appointment of these committees will never be satisfactory unless it is left to the parties concerned. That is not the point, however. Really the point is that these reference committees can only deal with the business referred to them from the Courts. What I should like these committees to do, if they are to be of service, would be to deal with the cases before they came to Court at all. That would prevent very much—at least, I hope so—going into Court at all. I do not see the value of these committees. I shall be told that these are all committee points, but my experience of this House is that when a Bill is presented you may put down all the Amendments you like, but practically speaking the Bill as presented first to the House is going to be the Bill when it is finished with. Amendments in Committee are simply Amendments that are really of very little service. I am opposed to this Bill. The difficulty is the need for houses. Then such a Bill as this would be unnecessary. I live in a district in one of the narrowest valleys in Wales, but I live at the bottom where it is very wide, and the council there have built 200 or 300 houses on a flat site. I was talking to one of the councillors last Friday, and he told me—
That is not the Bill which we are now discussing in the House.
I was only using the story as an illustration. I was not far wrong after all, because what I was saying was that all we wanted was houses, that the provision of houses would settle this, and I was saying that I am afraid we cannot get them. This friend told me they could not even on that flat land build there, or anywhere else, for the subsidy offered. I am opposed to this Bill. It was not put forward with the object of protecting the people, but of keeping them quiet for a time thinking that all will be well in the end.
The House could hardly be engaged in a more difficult and intricate question than this, because there are not only very complicated matters of detail connected with the matter of this Bill, but very complicated matters of principle. I regard it as most important. I fully support a point raised by the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, that the really vital thing is the provision of houses, and as he has very truly said, and I do not think anybody tan contradict it, had there been plenty of houses available this situation would never have arisen. As he says, the matter would have been solved by plenty of houses. The people who are to provide the houses are not the tenants but the owners. The people who are to live in the houses are the tenants. This House finds itself in the position of having to deal with two conflicting principles, first of all that put forward by my hon. Friend opposite, and upon which he and I are agreed—
Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being present—
There are two points which we have to try to reconcile. The first and primary one is that we do not want to do anything that will discourage the provision of houses; and, secondly, owing to the great shortage of houses the value of houses has appreciated owing to there being an insufficient supply, and that enables a landlord to exact a rent which is many cases is higher than the tenant can afford to pay. It is quite obvious that the present situation, although it is due to the shortage of houses, creates special hardships upon tenants. The legislation we are new considering is of a temporary character, and surely what we should try to do is to go as far as we can in the direction of remedying the hardships of the tenants, whilst doing as little as we can to stop the production of houses.
One thing I regard as being of great importance, and it is that it should be made perfectly clear to the industry of this country which is concerned with the provision of houses that the House of Commons regards this legislation as temporary, and that full liberty will be restored when this temporary period of difficulty is over to that industry to carry out its function and reap the fruits of its labour. As long as that is understood to be the principle behind this legislation, and is accepted, then there will not be much harm done. On the other hand, if the impression is created in the country that responsible parties in this House desire to maintain permanent State control over the letting of houses by landlords to tenants, that is a thing which will do more than anything else to perpetuate the present shortage of houses. I am sure hon. Members opposite realise that, and I think it is very unfortunate if there should be any tendency in this House for one side so set up as champions of the tenant and the other as the champions of the landlord. This is primarily a national question of fair play all round, and we should do as little as we can to interfere with the provision of houses.
I do not think hon. Members who have spoken on the other side of the House have uniformly taken a purely tenant's point of view, and hon. Members on this side have not taken a purely landlord's point of view. I think we can consider this question from a general standpoint, and from the point of view of the interests of the whole community. We want fair play, and we do not want to stop houses being provided. I agree that this Bill is not a measure of control, but it is a stage in decontrol, and it goes a step in the direction of restoring liberty. The main question is, Does this Bill go too far or does it not go far enough 1 I think, with a few exceptions which I will refer to later on, the Minister of Health who introduced this Bill has steered a wise course, and he is not going too fast or too slowly. The one thing which is really more important than anything else is to avoid uncertainty as to whether, when the period of control provided by a Bill of this kind is ended, another Bill will be brought in to extend the operation of this principle to a later date. That is the greatest obstacle to an industry of this kind, because people will not adapt themselves to anything if they do not know what is going to happen in the future. The building trade cannot be expected to adapt itself to a state of things under which they do not know what is going to happen.
If when Part 1 comes to an end in June, 1925, there is still such a shortage of houses that total decontrol would be impossible, then those tenants whose houses have not passed under decontrol will still get some measure of protection under Part II of this Bill. Personally I do not like Part II, and I think there are two or three very serious objections to that part of the Bill. In the first place, I do not like the setting up of this kind of reference committee, with some of the functions of a Land Court. It is a new principle, and may lead to a great deal of future trouble. As it is in this Bill, it is not, in itself, a very serious hardship, but I do not like the principle. The second objection is that that principle under Part II, to which I have referred, is applied partially. It really does not create a satisfactory position when you are going to have two classes of tenancies throughout the country—one class entirely decontrolled, and another class subject to interference by a reference committee in all matters of rent, etc. One can see how that arises under this Bill, but the public mind will not make that distinction very easily. It certainly will create anomalies in the public mind, and will be unsatisfactory, that merely because one particular house happens to be still under control when Part I of this Bill terminates, in June, 1925, it is therefore, in all matters between landlord and tenant, to be subjected to County Court jurisdiction, 'and through that to the jurisdiction of the reference committee; while another, and adjoining house, with conditions otherwise very much similar, which has passed out of control before the termination of Part I, will be subject to no restrictions or limitations whatever. That is not a satisfactory position in the matter of tenancies throughout the country.
The third objection to Part II is that it makes what is already a very complicated series of Acts even more complicated. Part II of the Bill will be very difficult to understand, and extraordinarily difficult to administer. The class of people who are affected by this legislation are, in a large number of cases, not only tenants but landlords also. Hon. Gentlemen opposite will not deny that it was through a smarter appreciation of the interpretation of the Act by those who advised the tenants than by those who advised some of the landlords that the House has been put to a great deal of trouble and difficulty over the Act. In that case, the tenants took advantage of a superior knowledge over the landlords, and in another case the landlords may take advantage of a superior knowledge over the tenants. We want legislation of this kind, which deals with large numbers of people who are not instructed or learned in the law, to be as simple as possible, so that people may understand what they are really doing when they take a house. Even under the present law it is very difficult —
Do not forget that the law is an ass!
It is generally supposed that the law is an ass. Perhaps that may be by people who are not able to understand it.
Lawyers cannot understand it.
If it were only that people who were asses could not understand the law of landlord and tenant we should not have much to complain of. With the law as it is to-day, however, and as it will be when this Bill is passed, and all these temporary Measures are passed, it is not merely a question of being an ass, but one requires to be a man of extraordinary intelligence and diligence to understand it at all. It surely is our duty to try to make this as simple as possible. That is another reason why I dislike Part II. I should be rather inclined—it really is a matter which will have to be thrashed out in Committee, and I think the right hon. Gentleman himself, when introducing the Bill, felt some little doubt about Part II. I entirely approve the objects of it—if the choice lay between taking Part I of the Bill, and giving three years instead of two, and letting it be understood that that was absolutely final, or of bringing in the complications and difficulties of Part II, to say, "Let us have three years of Part I and have a little less complication than by introducing something fresh for an extra, four or five years."
There is another point. Not only is the law in itself extremely complicated, that is very bad, but what makes it worse is that it is constantly changing. Here you have a succession of temporary Acts, and the law is one thing this year, another thing next year, and something else the year after that. You have three different stages, and two or three categories of property, all subject to different laws, and you have the general law, which covers the whole of the property in the country, altering automatically from year to year, without any fresh legislation being passed by this House. That is a very unsatisfactory state of things, and we surely should try to make this temporary legislation as simple as we possibly can. I should like to make some remarks on one or two things which, while not matters of great detail, are a little bit important. There is one very important point which occurs in Clause 2, Sub-section (1). That is that, wherever property passes into the possession of the landlord after this Bill becomes an Act, then it will be removed from control. Great objection has been taken to that, but I think it is one of the very best features of the Bill, because, by that means, you are gradually going to get decontrol without personal hardship to a single existing tenant.
The question of hardship arises to persons, and not to houses. The object of the principal Act, upon which this Bill is grafted, is to prevent individual persons who are tenants from suffering hardships through the power which their landlord has to turn them out because he is able to get a higher rent. If once they have, for any reason, voluntarily or otherwise, left the house, and it has no tenant, then there can be no personal hardship to any tenant of that house, and that is the time to decontrol it. I can only say that that view was very strongly pressed, and that Clause ought to have been put into the principal Act. The Land Union pressed this very hard at that time. Unfortunately, legislation was very hasty at that time, the matter was not sufficiently considered, and it was not put into the Bill; but we should have been in a very much better position to-day if Sub-section (1) of Clause 2 had been included in the principal Act, instead of having to be introduced at this late stage. I can understand people who desire to see permanent State control objecting to this. If it is put forward on that ground, that is not a matter of argument, but purely a matter of opinion, but I cannot imagine anybody who does not desire to see State control rendered permanent objecting to Sub-section (1) of Clause 2.
There is another important point. It is rather difficult to interpret what exactly is the meaning of Clause 3 (1, d ). At present, under the principal Act, the man who owns a house can only get possession of it for himself, his children, or anybody in his employment, when the Court is satisfied that alternative accommodation, reasonably suitable, is avail- able. Under paragrapph ( d ) it rather appears as if that were perpetuated, but if we look at paragraph ( f ) we see it says that the following paragraph shall be substituted for paragraph (iv) in the principal Act: (d). Therefore, what it really comes to is this—and I speak subject to correction by the Attorney-General—that where an owner wishes to get possession for himself or his child or his servant, or for the servant of a tenant, then where he has been the landlord before the 30th June, 1922, it will not be necessary for him to show that alternative accommodation is available. I believe I am interpreting that provision correctly. That is a most important and necessary Clause from the point of view of agriculture. I wish to press that very strongly on the House. Hon. Members will agree that agricultural labourers and workers who are tenants have in no cases had their rents raised—generally at any rate. Of course there may have been individual cases.
Look at the hovels!
I hope the hon. Gentleman will come and see the houses provided for agricultural labourers. Does he suggest that these houses are, in England and Scotland, hovels? And, if so, does he speak from personal knowledge?
From knowledge.
Does the hon. Gentleman say that agricultural labourers in England and Scotland are housed in hovels?
I will qualify that by saying, "in England."
I speak also for England, and I think I am entitled to claim that the labourer is properly housed there. I can claim generally for the agricultural interest that in view of the very small amount of money available they have done their best, and have indeed succeeded, in providing a very much better average class of house for agricultural labourers than is provided by a great many other industries much better off. Generally, as far as the principal Act is concerned, the whole of this legislation has not been necessary at all, because there has been no question of raising the rent of agricultural labourers. The agricultural labourer does not have to leave his house because the landlord wishes to exact a higher rent. He has that house on very much less than an economic rent, but he has it on those terms because it is part of the establishment of the farm, and because the man's labour is necessary in that particular place just as much as the labour of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is required at 11, Downing Street.
Is the right hon. Gentleman referring to houses on farms or in the villages?
To houses on farms. Where the houses are on farms they are provided by the owners of agricultural property to enable the property to be worked, and I submit that the condition there is absolutely parallel with, and cannot be differentiated as between, the agricultural worker who lives in a house adjoining the stockyard, and who is responsible for the care of the stock, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in 11, Downing Street, who is there looking after the finances of the nation. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer loses his job, if he resigns his post, he has to leave 11, Downing Street, and, similarly, if an agricultural labourer leaves his job he also should leave his cottage on the farm. I am speaking from the point of view of the maintenance of the industry when I say that the house is provided on the farm to enable the farm to be worked, and if the man leaves it and a successor is appointed it is absolutely necessary that that successor should live in the house in order the better to enable him to carry on the work, quite as much as the successor of the Chancellor of the Exchequer has a right to take possession of 11, Downing Street.
Does the right hon. Gentleman say that in no cases have agricultural labourers been evicted when the house is not wanted for the continuance of the working of the farm?
I cannot recall such a case, and, at any rate, in my own district I never heard of an agricultural labourer being turned out of his house in order that the landlord might let it to someone else at a higher rent. There may be such cases. I only say that they have not come within my experience, which is a very long one in agricultural districts. No one will deny, of course, that you may have isolated individual cases arising, it may be, out of a quarrel between the landlord and the tenant, in which either may be at fault. But these cases do not affect legislation. There may be, and there probably are, cases who are unpleasant as tenants, who are complained of by their neighbours, and who, as the result of those complaints, are given notice. They are the very first people to make a row and declare that they are hardly treated. But such cases are very rare. Generally speaking, agricultural labourers within my knowledge and experience are not given notice to quit from their houses by any person who is concerned in the cultivation of land, except when those houses are required for some successor to work on the farm or in some capacity on the estate. Hon. Members who do not agree with me may be able to prove otherwise, but I can only say that in my own knowledge that is the general practice throughout the country, and so far, therefore, as this Act is concerned the tenant would not be turned out of the house, because owing to the shortage of houses the landlord wants to get his house and secure more rent from a new tenant. The Act is entirely inapplicable to the agricultural industry, and where exceptions have been made the consequence has been there has been extraordinary difficulty in getting the farms cultivated. There have been innumerable cases where a man working on a farm has found it possible to get employment in a town near by at much higher wages, and, using his bicycle to cover the journey of five or six miles, has continued in occupation of a house which is really required for someone working on the farm, and, of course, at the existing rent, the rent in such cases being merely a nominal rent. The rents in my district are Is. 6d. a week, for which the houses are kept in thorough repair. Surely, where an owner of land, in order to get that land cultivated by his tenants, provides good houses at Is. 6d. a week for the workmen on the land to live in, it is not fair or right that those workmen should go and work elsewhere in the towns and continue to occupy those houses at a nominal rent, to the exclusion of others who would come to help to cultivate the land.
Is it not the fact that, in fixing the wages, the rent paid and other concessions that are made to the labourer are taken into consideration?
That, clearly, is a fact, but I do not think it would be in order now to pursue the subject, or I could show the hon. Member what an enormous advantage is derived from that, in view of the condition of agriculture. That, however, will have to come in another Debate. It only strengthens my case, because, if I accept, as I do, what my hon. Friend says, it means that the landlord is paying part of the wages of his labourer who works on the farm, by giving him for 1s. 6d. a week a house for which he would have to pay 10s. a week anywhere else. Is it fair that, while the landlord is contributing, in that form, some 7s. or 8s. to a man's wages, in order that he may work on the land, that man should continue to take that 7s. or 8s. a week out of the agricultural estate, and give his labour in the town and get full pay for it as well?
The right hon. Gentleman is bound to admit that, if the house and the other concessions were taken away, the rate of wages will have to be higher than it is now.
Yes, but not only does that make more strongly the point which I have already made, but, as the hon. Member knows, there is not the money made by those who are working the land to pay higher wages.
These arguments on both sides are getting a long way from the question before the House.
On a point of Order. Is it not the fact that houses occupied by workmen in connection with their employment do not come within this Bill?
This Bill now puts right what never ought to have been wrong. Under this Bill, we shall now be able to get possession of agricultural houses for men whose work is required on the land, without having to provide alternative accommodation. It is obviously much more difficult to provide alternative accommodation in the country than in a town. Therefore, I hope that no amount of persuasion will lead my right hon. Friend in any way to weaken that provision. There is one other matter which I do not think has been referred to, and on which I should like to say a word. There are two provisions in the Bill which concern this principle, namely, paragraph (d) of Clause 3, which refers to sub-letting, and Clause 6. Personally, I consider that one of the things we should always have in mind, so far as is possible, in all legislation in connection with housing, is to do everything we can to discourage slums, and one of the greatest causes of slums and bad housing is uncontrolled and unregulated subletting. I do not like anything which tends to encourage sub-letting in that way. Clause 6 enacts that, where subletting takes place, a landlord is to be able to get more rent. That is a temptation to the landlord to allow the tenant to overcrowd, and to take an additional rent. I hope that my right hon. Friend will consider that aspect of the matter, because I think it is very undesirable to encourage it.
Paragraph (d) of Clause 3 provides that when the tenant, without the consent of the landlord, sub-lets after the 31st July, 1923, the landlord is entitled to get possession. I do not think that that goes quite far enough. There has been a great deal of sub-letting where the tenants have charged exorbitant rents and have not treated their landlords fairly. I am bound to say that I think that Clause will require very careful consideration in Committee, and will probably require to be extended. Where sub-letting has occurred, not only since the 31st July of this year but since the 2nd July, 1920—on which date, I believe, the principal Act came into operation—there ought to be some provision to bring in sub-letting since that date, where it has comprised eventually the whole house. There are several other matters which, no doubt, will require to be dealt with in Committee, and with which it would not be proper to deal here. I would only again press upon my right hon. Friend in conclusion that, while I think he has steered a very wise middle course in this Bill, which will meet with the general approval of the House, and against the Second Reading of which I certainly should not think of voting, I hope he will preserve an open mind, when he gets to Committee, on the question of retaining the very complicated and difficult and, in some sense, harmful provisions of Part II, or whether it would not be better to lengthen the period under Part I. I trust the Bill will receive a Second Reading, and that, when it comes back on Report, we may find that it has been very considerably improved.
No doubt there is much in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman), to which we have just listened with much interest, with which we shall disagree, but with one remark that he made we shall all agree. That was when he said that this Bill marked a stage in decontrol. The question arises whether the time has come for any stage of decontrol. That, of course, is the big issue at stake, and it is one on which there will be considerable difference of opinion. I should like to ask the Minister what difference there is to-day as compared with 1915, when the first control Bill was brought in? Is the shortage less than it was then? I hear an hon. Member say that it is, but I wonder whether there are any facts which will substantiate a contention of that sort. In 1915 there had been one year of cessation of building. Since then, nine years have gone by, and in none of those years has the amount of building which has taken place been more than was required for the normal growth of the population in each year. Instead, therefore, of the shortage being less than in 1915, it is considerably more. I think we all agree that in 1919 there was a shortage, which has been estimated at figures varying from 500,000 to 800,000 houses. There have been several official statements to show that that shortage was j at least 500,000. An official pronouncement was made on 11th April, 1919, in London to a gathering of representatives of local authorities when it was stated on the authority of the Ministry of Health that the immediate need of working-class houses was estimated at approximately 500,000 in England and Wales, without including Scotland where, no doubt, the condition was relatively as bad. The Minister of Health in introducing his Housing Bill told us that up to the present 215,000 houses had been built under the various State-assisted schemes. We have two years to go before decontrol is to take place as foreshadowed in this Bill. I presume under the most sanguine estimate we are hardly likely to get more than another 100,000 houses. Add that 100,000 to the 215,000 and you have a total of 315,000 houses, which is the total product of six years' building—little more than 50,000 houses a year. That does not do more than fill the gap caused by the normal growth of population in those years and therefore we are back at the position of 1919, and there is to-day still that arrear of 500,000 houses which there is no prospect of seeing built between now and 1925.
Therefore there is a very strong case for the Amendment which my friends and myself put down, and which the Minister seems to think was quite unsuited to the case. He characterised it as a policy of wait and see. If I may characterise the Government's policy of housing and rent control, it is a policy of waiting and changing, and we are still watching for those houses which have not materialised. We want more definite assurances than the Minister has given us that this tremendous shortage, which is still pressing so hardly on our people, is likely to be removed. The answer he gave to a question the other day emphasises this point. He told us he had approved plans up to the present of 5,000 odd houses under the new Bill, that previously undertaken were 4,000 houses by various local authorities, and there was a balance from the 1919 Act of 14,000 odd, making a total of about 25,000 houses for which plans have been passed and which were being put in hand. Does anyone suggest that we shall see more than those 25,000 houses built between now and the end of the year, showing that the amount we may expect under his Housing Bill will be little more than 50,000 houses per year. Moreover, we have it from a return that the capacity of the building trade is considerably less now than it was before the War. Before the War the normal needs were estimated at about 80,000 houses a year. Therefore, take what test you will, it is clearly evident that there is no reasonable chance within the next two years of this abnormal shortage being made up It may be said we do not hear so many complaints. We are no doubt a long-suffering race, but the wonderful patience of our people should not be used as an excuse for not fulfilling the needs and redeeming the promises which have been made.
10.0 P.M.
With regard to the suggestion that by decontrolling empty houses you are going to help the building of new ones, that is the opposite of the case. When these empty houses are decontrolled much higher rents will be obtained than are ruling at present, and are those who are owning the houses, and who are often builders, likely to spoil the monopoly market they have by building more houses until these are let at higher rents? Instead of this Measure of decontrol stimulating building it will rather, because it liberates houses from control and allows them to be let at a higher rent, play into the hands of those who are anxious, looking at it purely from a financial point of view, to maintain the monopoly value which the shortage creates until the empty houses are let at fabulous figures. It will therefore be no immediate stimulus to the building trade. Instead of decontrolling these empty houses the Minister should do what his predecessor did. He admitted the scandal that these houses should be withheld from occupation when there is such a shortage, but surely instead of decontrolling them and allowing rack rents to be gained from them he should bring in a Clause providing that local authorities may compel the letting of these empty houses. We are anxious to provide more houses. It is estimated there are something like 100,000 throughout the country withheld from use. Surely the most effective way of increasing the housing supply would be immediately to compel the occupation of these houses and thus give relief to a large number of overcrowded tenants. I hope the Minister will, either in this Bill or in the Bill we are considering upstairs, accept this suggestion and insert the Clause which the House passed, but which unfortunately was rejected in another place. No reasons have been given to suggest that the shortage, which was so great, is any less or that there is any reasonable prospect of it being removed during the: next two years, and until this House has the assurance and is confident that this abnormal shortage will be removed, we have no right to take from those who have this protection that which has been given to them and make an alteration which, although it might remove certain hardships in some cases, would mean infinitely greater hardships to a much greater number of people. I therefore hope that until there is more certainty of the shortage being supplied the House will refuse a Second Beading to this Measure.
It is rather a strange coincidence that on the very day when the British aristocracy is masquerading in its luxury at the Derby races, we are discussing the sordid conditions under which millions of our people are compelled to live. I think the House will agree with me, however, that this Bill does carry us a step further than the point at which we were about to be left by the last Measure. Like most things it is good in parts, and my remarks will be directed by way of criticism to the bad parts only. One thing the House must bear in mind is that you have two Bills running through the House concurrently, two Bills which in my opinion cannot be separated. Some of us are sitting on Standing Committee "A," dealing with a Bill which will provide a £6 subsidy per annum for the next 20 years in respect of any house built in accordance with the provisions of the Bill. I can very well imagine that the Government, in running these two Bills together, have made up their mind that this Measure is contingent upon the other. They are assuming that sufficient houses will be built under the Measure now before Standing Committee "A" to make it possible for this Bill to work its way out at the end of two years.
There is here a justification for the first recommendation of the minority members who sat on the Committee of Inquiry into the Act of 1920, when they: declared that decontrol should not operate in this country until 1930; because although the first Clause of this Measure proposes to decontrol in two years' time, there is provision at the end of the Bill which in effect will cancel the first Clause in part. That is a justification of the attitude taken by the two Members of the Labour party who sat on I the Committee of Inquiry.
There is another coincidence in connection with this Bill. It has been introduced by a Member of Parliament for the City of Birmingham, which has 43,000 back-to-back houses, holding a population of 200,000. It seems to me that the Minister of Health should have paid more attention to securing houses for the people than attempting to deal with what I may term the problem of decontrolling rents. The bad points of this Measure are, as far as I can understand them, confined to about three categories. In the first place, there is the action of the Government in this Bill of decontrolling through the back door, as it were. The Minister who was in charge of the Ministry of Health before the right hon. Gentleman, failed to secure return to this House because he told the people, definitely, that he was in favour of decontrol by stages. He lost his seat in Parliament because he was candid enough to tell the truth. In this Bill the Government tell the people that, they are not, in fact, going to decontrol, but by a subtle way of procedure there will still be decontrol on a very large scale immediately this Measure becomes law. Great apprehension has arisen on the part of a large number of tenants in connection with this Bill. Perhaps I may be pardoned if I read a statement of a man who is under that apprehension. It is a human document, and only one of very many I have received since the Government have introduced this Measure. He says: irrespective of any alternative accommodation. That is a very strong point which must be made in this connection. This Bill takes us a big step further in decontrolling houses. Where a man has sufficient money he will be able to buy a house to which he has taken a fancy, and ńe will be able to secure an order for the eviction of the occupant, without having to find alternative accommodation. That, I say, is a wrong step to take.
Let me deal with the point mentioned by the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) who, strangely enough,, compared the agricultural labourer with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer comes to Downing Street, he leaves a mansion in the country to which he can go back, but when the agricultural labourer is evicted-he has generally no house to go to. [HON. MEMBERS:" The workhouse!"] He very often finds himself there.
I have another objection to this Measure. The Minister of Health, in Committee upstairs, has granted power in the Housing Bill whereby any person will be able to convert old houses, old factories and old stables into dwellings for the working classes. These old buildings, when they are converted into houses, as was admitted upstairs, will not be controlled at all under this Bill. It is a monstrous thing that the people who will be compelled to live in such dwellings will be charged rent out of all proportion to the value of the accommodation. Great objection must be raised in this House against a provision of that kind.
There is another objection. If the policy in the Bill is to be pursued, I can very well imagine something of this kind happening. There are villages on the seaside in Lancashire, such as Lytham, St. Annes, Ansdell, and the like, and there are many people living in those villages who do not own their own houses. I have been informed, on very good authority, that there is a possibility under this Bill of the people who made money during the War, the new rich, coming along and buying these houses over the heads of the tenants, because they are situated in a pleasant position, and they will be able to secure the eviction of the tenants without finding any alternative accommodation for those tenants.
No.
It is a very serious state of affairs, and I trust that when we get into Committee on the Bill we shall be able to deal with that position. The people who argue in favour of decontrol have- never understood the type of person who deals with the collection of rents in our big cities. I have always said in this House that there are good landlords—
The hon. Member is quite wrong in what he has been saying. If he looks at the Bill, Clause 3 (I, f), he will see that if anybody buys one of these houses subsequently to the 30th day of June, 1922, the necessity for supplying alternative accommodation will still remain.
There is a fear on that score, and I trust the Minister of Health will be able to clear up the point later on. I have had a letter from the secretary of a large Tenants' Defence Association, who has taken a very keen interest in this subject, and he is not clear on that point, and I am not certain from what has been said on the other side that the right hon. Gentleman is correct in what he is saying. There is another very serious objection which has been already mentioned. I do not know anything in any Measure ever presented to this House which, if carried into law, would bring about more quarrels, domestic and otherwise, than the provision that if a man desires a house for himself or his son or his daughter or his employés he can secure that house, provided that he buys it. This is a strange anomaly. I cannot understand the working of the mind of people who put provisions of this kind into a Bill, because it is conceivable that there may be other relations living in the house already. Picture what it means. A man's brother might be living in the house, but because the man's son requires the house to live in, the man would be entitled to buy this house and evict his own brother and put his son into it. That is possible, and some men will be mean enough to adopt that course now, because the law of supply and demand has broken down.
I object to another feature of the Bill, to which reference has been made by Members who represent agricultural constituencies. The question of service houses is not one which concerns agricultural districts exclusively. I know one of the largest employers of labour in this country, who owns about 500 cottages. In the main the tenants of these 500 cottages are employed in the factory by this man's firm. Whenever there is a dispute in the factory, a man is victimised if he takes up a strong attitude on trade union affairs, and, once he leaves the service of the firm, the employé is evicted automatically from the cottage. Something should be done in this Bill to provide against anything of that kind.
I would also appeal to the Minister of Health to include in this Measure some means of protecting small shopkeepers. I am told that people dealing with property which includes small shops have made thousands and thousands of pounds profit. I am informed that plunder has been carried on in this connection in the worst form possible. As an example of this, I may refer to a recent advertisement in a local paper in Lancashire. It says:
Hear, hear!
I see that that quotation is applauded by the right hon. Baronet. That indicates that he agrees with the quotation. When Labour comes into power the right hon. Baronet can be sure of one thing, and that is that we will have more regard for those who suffer from the aggrandisement of some of the bad landlords than members of the present Government have for them. Mention ought to be made, also, of the omission from the Bill of anything to secure a reduction of rents. The time has arrived when there ought to be a reduction of rents. There ought to be a statutory reduction of rents. When rents were increased by Statute there were strong reasons for giving the increase. The cost of repairs was high, the cost of labour was at a high level, and there were other things that made it imperative that an increase of rent should be allowed. But we have reached a stage when the Minister of Health ought to make an inquiry into the matter with a view of seeing whether in this Bill he cannot get rid of some of the increase of rent allowed under the 1920 Act.
I trust that when we get this Bill before the Standing Committee we shall make it a little more humane to the tenants than it is. I shall never forget a day in the office of my local Tenants' Defence Association. A poor woman came in with her children. She had been evicted from her home and she and her family and their goods thrown into the street by a callous landlord. The poor woman, not knowing where to go, broke into that house again. Her hands were bleeding; she had to go to a hospital for treatment, and friends had to take her and her little ones in for the night. When I saw that case I felt that anything I could do to help people of that kind to secure justice through Parliament I would do.
Bills like this merely tinker with the problem. The War has been over for five years, and the Government has not made any definite attempt to provide houses for the people. When the Government wants barracks for the soldiers, or a foreign base for the Navy, there are millions of money available, but when we want comfortable homes for the people there is something in the mind of the Government that prevents things being done.
Representing, as I do, a pleasure and health resort, I want to make some points regarding the position of company and apartment house proprietors, the disabilities and grievances under which they suffer now—disabilities which will reappear as soon as control is taken off the rents of houses. The company house proprietors, as they are called in the North of England, have a peculiar tenure. Generally they have only a yearly tenancy, and they become possessors of a house by paying the outgoing tenant what is known as a valuation, which is sometimes quite a large sum of money. If they are evicted or if they get notice to quit they have not an opportunity of recovering the money paid for this valuation. These people belong to a very industrious and deserving class. Although they live in houses which are rented in some cases at as much as £100 a year, they enjoy none of the amenities usually enjoyed by people who live in houses of that rental. On the contrary, as a rule, they live in the basement, and during the winter months when the house is not full of visitors they have not sufficient means to make the other portions of the house comfortably warm. I will give the House some examples of the way in which these people are treated. One individual who has been in a house for four years, paid £45 a year before the War and now pays £63 a year. She paid £300 as valuation when she went into the house. She gets notice to quit and, worse than that, the house is sold over her head for £1,900, she not having an opportunity of purchasing it even if she had the money. In another case a person who has been four years in a house and who paid £50 a year before the War, now pays £60, and £500 was paid to get into the house. In that case also notice to quit has been served without any opportunity being given of purchasing the house. There are people who have been 14 years in a house and who used to pay £35 a year and who now pay £45 10s. and it costs them £200 for valuation and they are refused an opportunity of buying the house.
These cases are particularly hard because, to these people, the houses are not only the places in which they live but are their stock-in-trade and are the means by which they gain their livelihood, and on going into these houses they have to acquire what is known as goodwill. It is to be hoped when the time comes for these people to be placed at the mercy of the landlords, that these facts will be remembered. I hope that something will be done for them in the Committee stage and that steps will be taken to help them through whatever tribunal is set up—although, on that matter, I am rather in agreement with the previous speaker that the County Court Judge seems to be the best qualified and most unprejudiced person to deal with such cases. I trust, however, that something will be done to remove the grievances of the people to whom I have referred. It is to be remembered that those who buy these houses and who cause these grievances, do not belong to the much abused landlord class but are speculators—a great many of them, I am sorry to say, being derived from the very same class as these unfortunate people themselves. It is all a matter of greed and nothing else, and it is not fair to throw any aspersions on the landlord class because in this particular instance these things are done. It is a great relief to such people that they have two years in which to look round if this Bill becomes law. That is a great advantage, and I am sure they are grateful for it. At the same time, their grievances will not end there, and I hope they will be enabled to get some compensation when they are put out of their houses without any opportunity of regaining the money which they paid when they went into the houses and which they also paid for good-will. There is another class of a totally different character to which I should like to refer. These are small proprietors, men who have purchased small houses with their savings and who cannot now get into them. I will give one example which illustrates what is going on. An ex-service man writes to me to say he joined up in 1915, although at the time he had a wife and two children. The letter says:
The discussion, as is perhaps natural, in a two days' Debate, has ranged very widely and generally over a great variety of subjects, some of which have not too much to do with the actual Bill before us, and with which, therefore, the House will excuse me from dealing. It is a little difficult to bring into one discussion a series of matters which have ranged from the conditions in Lewis, which was introduced by the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood), the various discussions as to moral principles, brought up by the hon. Member for Spring-burn (Mr. Hardie) and the whole philosophy of private enterprise and public ownership, which has been the main theme of the complaints of the Opposition, with regard to this Bill. It was, I think, your statement, Sir, in a previous Debate that the wisdom of the Front Bench could do with a great deal of dilution by private Members of this House, so that I should not wish to trespass too long on their patience, knowing as well as I do from my experience on the Back Benches how I resented the interminable orations delivered at this Box, but there are one or two things which it is necessary to say.
We find ourselves faced, during this Debate, with more or less a clear cut issue of principle. There is the principle on this side that we should work towards a state of decontrol, that, having carried through the great controls which were necessary for the War, the control of human life, the control of foodstuffs, the control of every branch of activity, including the control of housing, the natural desire of the people of this country is to work towards a state of decontrol, and that, therefore, the last great control, that of housing, will need, sooner or later, to be removed with, as is necessary, as little injury to the people as possible, and that, not for the reason which is continually advanced by hon. Members opposite, that we desire control to be removed in order to permit an unlimited profiteering on the part of so-called fat men on the capitalist side of the House, although I have seen many very corpulent and adipose gentlemen on the other side. It is not merely because of the pressure of the vultures of capitalism on this side who desire to keep the British nation slaves. No, it is because we sincerely believe that, not only in theory but in practice, we have found that the great Government controls, continued for too long a time, began to defeat their own object, and began to produce a shortage where they were meant to produce a plenty; they began to produce friction, where it was intended to remove it; they began to work against the current of things, and to cause increasing difficulty and trouble, until they were eventually removed, when the whole nation said, "Why was this not done before? "
Those of us who served in the last Parliament remember the anger that was manifested in many quarters when there was a question of removing control of the price of foodstuffs, when it was said that there was no chance of getting any reasonableness out of private enterprise, that the things we predicted would not take place, that the supplies would not be increased, that in every way the price of foodstuffs, once control was removed, would mount and mount unreasonably, until we should be forced to reimpose control to bring them down. These predictions were falsified then, as they will fee falsified now. In fact, if there is one complaint made at present, in all parts of the house, about the price of foodstuffs, it is that they are so unreasonably low that the producer is not getting a fair return for the work he is putting in. I am within the recollection of the House when I claim that repeatedly in agricultural debates, not from this side of the House only, but from the opposite side, there has been delivered with great eloquence by one of the Members who spoke tonight, a bitter protest against potatoes being brought into this country and lowering the price, how that no business should allow such a thing as that to be done, and that the farmers, if they had any sense, would have bought all those potatoes and kept the price from falling, and thereby conferred a great benefit on the farmers.
The general argument that the imposition of control is necessary is based, no doubt, on the old scriptural maxim, that the heart of man is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. My hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. J. Brown) will recognise, no doubt, the text, but he desires, and his party desires, to strike out the word "man" from that text, and to insert therein the word "Conservative." As I say, there is a general division of opinion in the country, to which the division of parties in this House corresponds. But, across the Floor of this House, you do get on the two front benches above the Gangway a clear and definite division of opinion. You get on this side an opinion that the interests of the country—not of the capitalists, or any part—will best be served by sweeping away control, that the supply of houses will thereby be increased, that the quality of houses will be increased, that the people will benefit by it; and on the other side an equally genuine opinion that the only way to provide accommodation for the people is the most rigid state of control throughout every Department both for the production and supervision of houses.
Had we a satisfactory state of affairs in the pre-War days when we had no control?
That suggestion has been pressed forward by hon. Members on the other side who have been telling us that bad as our position was in 1919, when the State embarked upon State housing and State control, it is infinitely worse now in 1923 when we have been at it for the past few years. They cannot have it both ways. Either things have got better or they have got worse. We believe on this side that we are only just keeping pace with the shortage. We are not really getting on as fast as we could wish towards reducing the shortage, and one of the reasons for that is the tremendous injury to credit and private enterprise that is caused by this perpetual belief that no matter what happens or what a man does himself, that the State will step in at the end and in some way nullify his enterprise. In fact, one of the suggestions brought forward to-night by one of the hon. Members to-night was that as there were empty houses all about the country that what should be done by the Minister was to open all these houses and to insist upon tenants being put into them at controlled rents. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Yes. Hon. Members on that side believe that would stimulate the production of houses. We on this side believe it would not do anything to stimulate the production of houses. Hon. Members opposite will forgive me for saying so, but they sometimes seem to imagine that we—and perhaps they think the same of us—take a lamentably short view of these matters.
It is necessary to look ahead, and to realise that we must produce in this country more houses then men—that is to say than families—and then we shall get an improvement in the housing conditions of the people. We must produce a surplus of empty houses in some way or other; we must get towards that ideal. Very well. One of the great things we found about Government control was that it never produced a surplus of empty houses. And it never will! Private enterprise will produce such a surplus.
Never, never!
Hon. Members in all parts of the House have admitted—
On a point of Order. All the time—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"]
I may explain to the hon. Member that it is not a correct point of Order to cause an interruption. The hon. Member should say: "Mr. Speaker, will the hon. Member allow me to interrupt him?"
I have no objection to the hon. Member speaking.
Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman allow me to say this: that all the time I have been on the local council, for 30 years or more, we have been short of houses in my area. And we have had private enterprise.
Well, the figure given at the beginning was 400,000 empty houses in Great Britain. We know, and the hon. Member knows, that there are a great many empty houses in Glasgow. It is one of the arguments brought forward against the increase of rents by hon. Members opposite, that before the War the landlords had to bear the expense of houses standing empty. Therefore it is not correct for hon. Members to say that there were no empty houses before the War, and they cannot have it both ways. We know that before the War there were bad houses which were uninhabited, and which have since become inhabited, and the best thing to do now is to produce a number of good houses, and then those bad houses will automatically fall out of use. It is as a step towards the better housing of the people that this Bill has been introduced. We come to a clear clash of principle when hon. Members on one side say that they consider that this Measure will not tend towards better housing, and we must ask them to believe our serious contention that it is a step towards producing better housing. Many of the points which have been brought out in the discussion are very largely a series of Committee points. They are points of difference in detail, such as whether the period should be two or three years. We think progress should be made towards the decontrol of houses, and on that point we find ourselves in opposition to hon. Members opposite, who think that no steps should be taken towards decontrol, but that more stringent control should be imposed and new houses should be swept into that control.
The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) will scarcely expect a reply to his remarks at this stage because that would be more appropriate when he makes a rousing speech, as he probably will, on the Skye crofters or some other injustices to Scotland, which seems to have replaced Ireland as being a prolific source of grievances. Other points more germane to the discussion were raised by other hon. Members. The hon. Member who spoke second in the Debate, speaking for the Independent Liberal section of the Opposition—
The Liberal party.
I was only going to say that the hon. Member's remarks differed from the remarks of the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb), who moved the rejection of the Bill because he produced a cogent and well-reasoned series of arguments. If the other portions of the Liberal party are anxious to associate themselves with the remarks of the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney), I regret it. As one who was associated with them so long I regret to see how they have fallen, like Darius, fallen, fallen, fallen, from their high estate, because I think they might have made out a better case than that which was presented to us by the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney). The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) stated that he could not understand the hon. Member's case himself, and if his own party cannot understand him, he will do us, on this side, the justice of believing that it is not from ill-will, but rather from lack of comprehension, that I do not devote any more time -to what he had to say. I will only mention one of the cases which he brought forward. I am glad he is in the House, because perhaps he can elucidate it further. He said, "This is a very bad Bill, and there are provisions by which a landlord and a tenant may come to some arrangement, whereby the tenant is protected during the period of rent control and a little longer. "What would happen," ho said," would be this." It would be made clear by a simple example, he added, thereby overestimating the intelligence of the House in understanding it. The hon. Member over-estimated the intelligence of hon. Members on that side, also, because his own comrades and brothers-in-arms could not understand his argument—[HON. MEMBERS: "Give us the argument!"] I will give the argument, as I gathered it at the time. The hon. Member said, "Here is a very dangerous provision. The landlord will go to the tenant and say, 'You are sitting in a house, here, at £40 a year. You will have,' "the hon. Member said, with a vividness of phrase with which I cannot hope to compete, and I am speaking from memory," people outside howling for this house at £80 a year. You get in a sub-tenant, who will commit some sort of nuisance, and then I shall be able to get this house out of control,' and thereby he would produce an extraordinary case of collusion between the landlord and the tenant to swindle the tenant. "The hon. Member laid that before us as a case against which we had made no provision.
In the words of Dr. Johnson, I can give an argument, but I cannot give an understanding. I said nothing of the kind. My argument was this, that under the new Bill a nuisance might be committed by a lodger. Under the old Act it had to be committed by the tenant himself. Therefore, you put in the landlord's power the opportunity of putting out the tenant for something that the lodger does.
I put it to the House if the hon. Member has not repeated the remarkable series of assertions which he has made with the air of one making it again perfectly clear to us. I confess that I stand humbly rebuked before the Johnsonian phrase which, with his particular facility, he provided for the benefit of the House, because his further argument was that the landlord would go to the tenant and tell the tenant to get in a lodger, who would do this.
As we have been told that this is the argument, not of one of the other sections of the Liberal party, but of the Liberal party as a whole—
No, no!
I will leave the Liberal party to elucidate matters further with their spokesman. But there are graver matters—matters of more import. There is the powerful and cogent argument of the hon. Member for Seaham—to whom I should like to offer my compliments on the speech which he made. The gravamen of his charge was that it appalled him to consider there were so many ways by which private property could be returned to the owner. There is a difference between us on this side and hon. Members opposite. I am not prepared to go into a discussion with the hon. Member for Seaham, because he will have the benefit of my remarks in cold print to-morrow. But the differences between the hon. Member and Members on this side of the House are undoubtedly fundamental, and we must take these great issues as issues which cannot be decided by Debate in this House, but as matters for debate in the country and for experiment. The matter will have to be worked out in practice. We claim that the Bill is as fair a contribution as can be made towards the process of decontrol, which processes working well. The arguments used against decontrol are arguments which it is impossible for us to meet here in this House, because our ideal on that is different from the ideal of hon. Members opposite. On the detail of decontrol, we shall be only too anxious to meet the points raised by hon. Members opposite. For instance, there are the extremely valuable things which have been brought in concerning the sanitary state of the premises to which the hon. Member for Springburn referred. He will do us the justice, I think, of admitting that we have gone further towards the enforcement of a better sanitary standard in the class of property, brought under this Bill than has been done in previous Measures. He complained that we were leaving it to the sanitary inspector. But that was one of the requests brought against us upstairs by the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley). Another hon. Member pointed out that no alternative accommodation was required to be provided in certain cases of people buying houses over other people's heads. The answer to that is that the whole Bill is governed by Section 5 of the original Act, under which the Court will need to be satisfied that a reasonable case is made out before it will give the order. All these, however, are Committee points. They can be discussed and threshed out upstairs. The main general principle of the Bill is, as the Minister claimed, a fair and square attempt to deal with what is admittedly one of the most difficult world problems. At the same time, we shall be willing to meet hon. Members in Debate to-morrow, and not in the Division Lobby, believing that on the actual practical working out of the principle, and on the merit of our proposal, we are able to make a satisfactory case.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Debate be now adjourned," put, and agreed to."— [ Captain Wedgwood Benn.]
Debate to be resumed To-morrow.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Jute Industry Dispute, Dundee
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Colonel Leslie Wilson.]
I had intended, with the indulgence of the House, to raise the question of the payment of unemployment benefit to the workers in the jute industry at Dundee, who have been locked out since last Friday. This question is one, of course, which affects most nearly the 30,000 workers, and is also of very great importance to the City of Dundee, which has, in the last four years, paid out no less than £300,000 in relief, without counting expenses of administration. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Wallsend (Mr. Hastings) was going to support me in regard to the legal aspect of the case. I understand, however, that to-day the efforts of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour to bring this unfortunate dispute to a close have been so far successful that, as I understand from information which he has been courteous enough to place at my disposal, and from telegrams which I have received, the employers have withdrawn the lock-out notices, and all the works will begin to function again to-morrow, with the exception of the one in which the dispute occurred. It is, therefore, no longer necessary for me to pursue my original intention. All I would do is to express the hope that the right hon. Gentleman may be able to corroborate to the House this very happy intelligence, and that he may also be able to give us assurances that he is prosecuting his efforts finally to bring the dispute to a close and, may I also express the hope, to assist in setting up some kind of machinery which will prevent a recurrence of this deplorable dispute, which has occurred twice in four months.
As I was requested by the town clerk of Dundee to obtain the legal opinion of one or other of the Law Officers of the Crown, I interviewed the Solicitor-General for Scotland yesterday, and he has undertaken to go into the matter in view of the fact that the town clerk has presented a closely reasoned case, leading to the conclusion that the Government have hitherto been on wrong lines in interpreting the Act, and that the workers in such circumstances ought to have the benefit of the Act. This, of course, is a matter which does not apply only to Dundee, but is a national issue, and it is of great importance to have the opinion of one of the Law Officers, because it will apply to every part of the country where any such development as this arises. It was certainly very gratifying for all concerned to learn today that, as a result of the step taken by the employers, 30,000 workers will be able to resume their activities. It is gratifying that all those who have been taking part in helping the right hon. Gentleman, as representing the Department, to facilitate these developments are at any rate on the way towards getting this point clear. It is unfortunate that findings by the inquiry so ably conducted by the Labour Department should not have been applied, and so have saved all this trouble. However, as we certainly agree in the feeling which will be prevalent that this important development has taken place in the interests, not only of those who have been involved, but of the workers in different parts of the country who are not directly responsible for this development, we certainly shall be pleased to receive that opinion in accordance with the expressed desire of the Town Council of Dundee.
I am obliged for the courteous references to myself, and I say at once—I do so sincerely—that I thank all those connected with Dundee, whatever their outlook and whatever their various positions, who have co-operated in the endeavour to avert the trouble that faced us. The legal point that was raised by the last speaker I do not propose to go into now. It was to have been discussed at somewhat greater length, and it clearly is a matter of the legal interpretation of the words of an Act of Parliament. If it is formally raised I shall be happy to take up the gage of battle. But that is not really the question now at issue, because of the turn that events have taken. With regard to the facts themselves, it is perhaps desirable that I should make a short formal statement. In view of the serious lock-out, which became effective on Friday last, I did, as I informed the House yesterday, invite the representatives of the employers and the workers to come to meet me in London. The workers' representatives accordingly came to London, and saw me yesterday, but the employers' representatives found some difficulty in doing so. I was in communication with the employers of Dundee yesterday and to-day, and I am glad to be able to inform the House, as indicated by both hon. Gentleman, that I received information this afternoon from Dundee that the employers have now withdrawn the lock-out notices in respect of all mills, except the Camperdown Mill, where the dispute originally arose. I communicated this to the operatives' representatives, who met me again this afternoon, and I am glad to say that I hope the vast majority of the operatives, some 25,000 in number, I think—in fact, all those except the operatives engaged at the Camperdown Mill—will be returning to work forthwith, and not later than Friday next. I can give the assurance for which I was asked, namely, that it will be my endeavour to assist in every way in my power to see that the remaining point at issue in connection with the Camperdown Mill is satisfactorily adjusted as soon as possible.
I wish to express my thanks to the right hon. Gentleman.
I also desire to thank the right hon. Gentleman.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Eleven Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.