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Commons Chamber

Volume 165: debated on Monday 11 June 1923

House of Commons

Monday, June 11, 1923

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Barnsley Corporation Bill,

Birkenhead Corporation Bill,

Great Western Railway (Swansea Harbour Vesting) Bill [ Lords ],

Rugby Urban District Council Bill,

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

Plymouth Corporation Bill [ Lords ],

Stoke-on-Trent Corporation Bill [ Lords ],

Read a Second time, and committed.

London, Midland and Scottish Railway Bill [ Lords ](by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Thursday, at Quarter-past Eight of the Clock.

Oral Answers to Questions

India

Census (Occupation)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the figures of the population of India, by occupations, taken at the census in India, of 18th March, 1921, have been published, and when the Report of the Census Commissioner for India is likely to be issued?

The figures of the population of India, by occupations, at the 1921 census, have not yet been received. There is no information available here as to when the Report of the Census Commissioner is likely to be issued, but inquiry will be made of the Government of India if desired.

Police (Arms)

asked the Under-secretary of State for India whether the Government of India intend to take any action on the opinion expressed by the Judges of the Allahabad High Court, when disposing of the appeals in the Chauri Chaura case, to the effect that the police, who were overpowered and butchered by a mob of from 4,000 to 5,000 persons, had neither sufficient ammunition nor suitable arms to deal with a mob of that size?

I have not yet seen an authorised report of what the High Court said in its judgment. But the question will be brought to the notice of the Government of India.

Swaraj Flag

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the communication issued by the Government of the Central Provinces on the question of the hoisting and carrying in procession of the Swaraj flag was issued with the assent and approval of the Government of India and the Secretary of State?

The communiqué published in the Press of the Central Provinces Government, dated the 5th May, is, as stated therein, an explanation of the local Government's policy. My Noble Friend has been and is in communication with the Government of India on the whole subject.

May I ask for an answer to my question, namely, was the communiqué issued with the assent of the Government of India and the Secretary of State?

I would point out that this is a matter within the competence of the local Government. They were entitled to issue an explanation of their action, which they did.

Has this explanation been followed by an excrudescence of this Swaraj flag flying, and an enthusiasm for the flag that did not exist before?

Elections (Rules)

asked the Under-secretary of State for India what decision has been taken in the consideration of the Committee's Report on the Amendments to the rules in connection with the elections for the Legislative Assembly and provincial councils in regard to the question of a deposit being required from each candidate for election, to be forfeited if the candidate fails to get the required proportion of votes, in the some manner as in elections in the United Kingdom?

My noble Friend has recently sanctioned an amendment to the rules for all councils requiring a deposit of Rs. 250 in the case of provincial councils, and Rs. 500 in the case of the Indian Legislature, as a condition of nomination for candidature. The deposit is to be forfeited if the candidate fails to obtain one-eighth of the votes polled (or one-eighth divided by the number of members to be elected, in the case of constituencies returning more than two members), or if the candidate, having been elected, fails to take his seat and the Oath. Papers connected with this and other amendments will in due course be presented to Parliament.

Finance Act, 1923

asked the Under-secretary of State for India whether, having laid upon the Table the Viceroy of India's despatch giving his reasons for the certification of the Indian Finance Act, 1923, he will now circulate as a White Paper the petition to this House from the members of the Indian Legislature protesting against the certification, together with the names of the petitioning members?

The hon. Member's question appears to be addressed to me in error. The matter is one entirely for the Public Petitions Committee of this House.

Could we not have copies of the Viceroy's despatch in the Vote Office?

Lala Lajpat Rai

( by Private Notice ) asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he will state the nature of offence proved against, and date and term of sentence passed on Lala Lajpat Rai, president of the first Trade Union Congress of India, whether the Lala is now reported suffering from tubercular trouble, and whether, bearing in mind this disease, his age, and his past great services to India, the Government will grant remission of the remainder of his sentence?

Lala Lajpat Rai was sentenced on the 9th March, 1922, to one year's simple imprisonment under the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1908, and to one year's rigorous imprisonment under the Seditious Meetings Act, the sentences to run consecutively. I have no information beyond that which has appeared in the Press as to his state of health. With regard to the last part of the question, my Noble Friend is not prepared to make any representations to the authorities in India on a matter the decision on which is within their competence.

Will the Noble Lord make inquiries as to the state of health of this man?

Out of courtesy to the hon. Gentleman, I shall discuss the matter with my Noble Friend the Secretary of State; but I am bound to point out the difficulty in the way. If inquiries are to be made into the health of any one prisoner, there is no logical reason why they should not be made into the health of hundreds of others, and that would impose an intolerable burden upon public funds in this country and India. There is no reason to believe that the authorities in India are not carrying out their duties in looking after the health of this and other prisoners, and I am disinclined to agree with the suggestion made in the question.

Is it not the case that this man has repeatedly been in collision with the laws of the country, has been convicted and condemned before, and has been a source of trouble for many years?

The only ground on which I permitted this question was the allegation as to the prisoner's serious state of health.

Is the Noble Lord aware that prisoners in good health, and in exactly the same position as Lajpat Rai, have been set free in the United Provinces; and will he make inquiries as to the man's health and find out whether in this case similar clemency will not be shown?

As I promised the hon. Gentleman, I will discuss this matter with my Noble Friend, but I feel bound to point out the difficulties, and I can see no reason for making an exception.

Will the Noble Lord consider that a sentence of one year's penal servitude or simple imprisonment should not be permitted to be converted into sentence of death, if the state of the man's health is as reported?

British South Africa Company

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the suggestion published in the Rhodesian Press that the administration surplus of revenue over expenditure, subsequent to the issue of the Report of the Judicial Committee, will be retained by the Chartered Company for the benefit of its shareholders; and whether His Majesty's Government will take steps, as suggested by Sir Charles Coghlan, so that these surpluses will be secured and retained by the new Government of Rhodesia?

The Secretary of State has now considered the message from the elected members referred to in my reply of the 4th June. Under the terms of the Report of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council the British South Africa Company is entitled, on the termination of its administration, to have secured to it the reimbursement of any outstanding balance of aggregated advances made by it for necessary and proper expenditure upon the administration of Southern Rhodesia. This balance can only be determined by taking into account, on the one hand, the total administrative expenditure incurred by the company during its administration and, on the other, the total revenue received. In these circumstances, His Majesty's Government are not in a position to require the company on the change of Government to relinquish the balance of the surplus accrued in one particular year of the company's administration. A reply to this effect has been sent to the elected members.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the British South Africa Company alienated to De Beers Consolidated Company over 200,000 acres of land for considerations other than cash; what was the nature of these considerations; what is the estimated value of this alienation; and whether both the initial value and the proceeds are to be deducted from the gross amount awarded to the company by Lord Cave's Commission?

This was a free grant made by the British South Africa Company in 1894 in consideration of certain advances received by the company from the De Beers Consolidated Mines, Limited. The amount with which the company subsequently proposed to credit the Crown in respect of this grant is based on a valuation of 9d. an acre. The cash receipts on account of the quit rent on these, as on other lands, were taken into account in the award of Lord Cave's Commission.

Will the hon. Gentleman answer the paragraph in my question which asks what is the estimated value of this alienation?

Is it not a fact that the whole of Rhodesia has been reclaimed from the wilderness by the chartered shareholders, who have not received a penny in dividend?

It is not quite correct that they have not received a penny in dividend. I understand that the estimated value of this land was gone into and taken into account by Lord Cave's Commission.

Is not the value of these 200,000 acres to be set off against the deficit referred to in the answer given a little time ago by the hon. Gentleman?

Not its present value. It is the valuation at the time it was handed over.

Kenya (Electoral Roll)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies the numbers of male and female voters on the existing electoral roll in Kenya, and of them how many are officials or wives of officials; and the average number of voters for each electoral division?

I regret that I have not the information required, but I will consult the Acting-Governor and communicate with the hon. Member in due course.

Tanganyika

Traders' Books (Language)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state what is the amount of penalty to which a French or Italian trader in Tanganyika will be liable if he keeps his books of account in his own language after the close of the present financial year?

Traders of all nationalities may keep their ordinary accounts in any language they please, but for the purposes of the Trades Licensing Ordinance they will be required to submit evidence in a form intelligible to the licensing authority, sufficient to show the amount of their profits and to enable their financial position to be readily ascertained. The accounts necessary for this purpose must be in English or Swahili in English characters, and the maximum penalty on conviction for contravention of this provision is 2,000 shillings. It is not intended that proceedings should be taken in cases where the accounts are intelligible to the licensing authority without strict compliance with the letter of the law. I may add that an amendment of the section concerned is contemplated.

Will the amendment of this section free the Indian traders from the necessity of keeping these accounts in English?

Certainly not all. The Amendment is designed to deal with small accounts. The big firm that before the War had to present its accounts in German or Swahili will have to present them in English or Swahili.

Cotton Goods (Taxes and Licences)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can state, with regard to cotton goods imported from Great Britain into Tanganyika by a British importer, sold by him to an Indian dealer, retailed by the Indian to an African trader, and sold by him to a native purchaser, the number of duties and taxes payable and of licences necessary before the transaction can be completed; and if he can state the approximate percentage added thereby to the c.i.f. price of the goods at the port of importation?

The only payment to the Government involved in such a transaction would, so far as I am aware, be the payment of Customs duty, which in the case of unbleached cotton piece goods amounts to 40 cents of a shilling for lb. weight.

Is it not a fact that many of these traders would have to take trading licences, and pay profit duty?

Iraq (Irrigation Policy)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies who is responsible for the direction of irrigation policy in Iraq; what are his qualifications for the post; what is his salary; and what is the total sum spent in Iraq in irrigation during each of the years ending the 31st March, 1921, 1922, and 1923?

The direction of irrigation policy in Iraq is under the control of the Ministry of Communications and Works of the Iraq Government, which is entirely responsible for the qualifications and salaries of the officials employed and paid by it. With regard to the last part of the question, the Estimates of the Iraq Government for 1921–22 show a total expenditure of 40 lakhs of rupees, and for 1922–23, a total of 38½ lakhs.

Does the hon. Gentleman mean that he has no power to change the present policy if he be not satisfied with it?

Irish Free State (Malicious Injuries Compensation)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the Criminal and Malicious Injuries (Amendment) Bill, 1923, has now passed all its stages in the Parliament of the Irish Free State; whether he is aware that the provisions of the said Act deprive British citizens of rights which they possessed under decrees obtained while Great Britain was still responsible for the Government of Southern Ireland and fail to provide the compensation in respect of damage to life and property which was agreed to between the Irish and British plenipotentiaries at the time of the signing of the Treaty; and what action the British Government are taking to safeguard the interests of British subjects in Southern Ireland, which are gravely prejudiced by the terms of the above Act?

In reply to the first part of the question, I assume that the hon. Member is referring to the Bill which as amended in some important respects, has become the Damage to Property (Compensation) Act, and has received the Governor-General's assent on behalf of His Majesty. As regards the second part of the question, it was always contemplated by His Majesty's Government and by the Provisional Government that so soon as the Compensation (Ireland) Commission was established by agreement between the two Governments, that Commission should be the sole tribunal for the assessment of compensation in respect of damage to property arising during the period covered by its terms of reference, and that proceedings or decrees in respect of such damage taken before or issued by any other tribunal should be void. As regards injury to the person during this period, His Majesty's Government assumed liability for the payment of compensation to their own supporters, and no statutory provision on this subject by the Free State Parliament is therefore necessary. In reply to the third part, the understanding between the two Governments was that in respect of injury to the person or to property arising after the truce, equitable compensation should be paid. In reply to the fourth part of the question, I can assure my hon. Friend that this matter is continuing to engage the close and earnest attention of His Majesty's Government.

Can the hon. Gentleman say how an Act of Parliament passed by any Parliament other than this can take away from a British citizen the rights he has obtained under a decree of a British Court?

The Irish Free State can repeal any Act passed by this Parliament—I mean any Act under the powers given to them. It has the constitutional power, if His Majesty assents to it, under the powers given by the Home Rule Act passed last December.

Do I understand my hon. Friend to say that there is no Parliamentary legislative supremacy in the Imperial Parliament?

Yes, certainly—Parliamentary supremacy to repeal that Act. I want to make it clear that the power under which the Irish Free State Parliament has passed this Compensation Act is the power conferred upon it by Parliament in December last.

Does that mean that the British taxpayer is to be responsible for the damages done by Irishmen to Irishmen in Ireland?

As this is a very important matter, may I ask whether, under decrees obtained in British Courts by British citizens in Ireland prior to the Treaty, they are not entitled to claim enforcement unless an Act is passed in the British Parliament to the contrary?

The definite understanding between the late Government and the then Provisional Government under the heads of the agreement was that the undefended decrees which had been dealt with before the county councils should come up for review. Defended decrees were regarded as final, but the undefended decrees had to come up for re-examination by the Committee.

Are we to understand that a decree granted by the proper authority in Ireland before the passage of the Irish Free State Act is to be declared null and void by the Free State Government?

I understood that it had been made clear long before I took office that these undefended decrees would have to be examined before a tribunal. I have always understood that. The defended decrees are final and are not re-opened under this Act.

By what Parliament or Statutory authority are the decrees of the Courts set aside? Is it only an understanding between the two Governments? If so, in what documents is the agreement set out?

I will inquire into that and find out what is the case. That is the situation as I found it.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this question again at the earliest opportunity.

Where the Irish Free State Government passes a Bill gravely prejudicing the rights of British citizens who have obtained decrees under the authority of British Courts, is it not proper that these cases should be reserved for the assent of His Majesty?

I am afraid I cannot answer that question. I think it should be addressed to the Prime Minister.

Australia (State Control of Steamships)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has any information as to whether the Australian Government is about to substitute private management for the present State control of the Commonwealth line of steamers which at present compete with British lines trading to this country?

China

Shanghai Police (Alleged Torturing)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if his attention has been drawn to the torturing of a Chinese citizen by beating and burning at the hands of the Shanghai Municipal Council's police; and whether he will inquire into the matter?

I have seen in the Press a reference to the case which is at present the subject of judicial proceedings in the Supreme Court at Shanghai.

Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this question again in the House at the earliest available opportunity.

Tobacco Monopoly

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will ascertain from our representatives in China whether there is any evidence that the habit of opium smoking is lessening in certain places and amongst certain peoples in proportion to the spread of the habit of cigarette smoking; and whether he will take steps to test the feeling amongst Powers interested in China in favour of a tobacco monopoly that would serve the double purpose of placing Chinese finances on a stable footing and of counteracting the opium evil?

I have never heard of any evidence in support of the theory advanced in the first part of the hon. Member's question, but His Majesty's Minister at Peking will be asked to furnish a report. In regard to the second part, there is already in existence at Peking a Wine and Tobacco Administration charged with the control of the taxation of tobacco and cigarettes throughout China. Apart from treaty and other objections to the creation of monopolies, it may be found that better results can be reached by the strengthening of this Administration than by the establishment of a new organisation.

Outrages Against Europeans

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the present state of anarchy in China and the powerlessness of the Central Government, he will take steps in collaboration with the other Powers to raise a force of Chinese gendarmerie, officered by Europeans, in order to protect the railway lines and to maintain order, such force being paid for out of the proceeds of the Chinese Customs?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps the Government are taking to protect the lives and interests of British subjects and traders in China in view of the most serious con- dition of things now prevailing outside the area of the Treaty Ports; and has he any news as to the release of the Europeans and Americans who were recently captured as a result of the outrage on the Tientsin-Pukow Railway?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the present position of the 14 British and Amercan citizens reported to have been captured on 6th May last by bandits who wrecked and looted the Tientsin-Pukow railway train in China; what is the main cause of the delay in obtaining release of the British prisoners; and has His Majesty's Government grounds to believe that bad faith on the part of the Government at Peking is one of the contributory reasons of the above outrage or of the delay in the restoration of the captives?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware of the alarming state of affairs in China, and the consequent danger to British lives and property in that country; have the negotiations for the release of the British prisoners been brought to a satisfactory conclusion; and what steps are being taken to protect the large number of British people resident in China?

As a result of the bandit outrage on the Tientsin-Pukow railway on the 6th May, one British subject named Joseph Rothman was killed and five British subjects named Reginald Harry Rowlatt, Frederick Elias, Edward Elias, Theodore Saphiere and William Smith were captured. The last three have since been released; the first two are still in captivity. The diplomatic body immediately made strong representations to the Chinese Government, who expressed profound regrets and gave assurance that everything possible was being done to secure release by all means and at any cost; military operations against the brigands had to be suspended in view of the danger to the lives of the captives. Negotiations are being conducted by the Chinese authorities with the brigands and, according to the latest report from His Majesty's Minister, are proceeding fairly satisfactorily. Consular and military representatives of the principal powers have been sent to the spot to investigate and watch the local military situation. The captives are being made as comfortable as possible by the despatch of supplies and are daily in communication with their Consuls and the relief party.

In regard to the question of measures to prevent the recurrence of such outrages, His Majesty's Minister at Pekin has been authorised to press for the establishment of a railway police force under foreign officers, and for greater foreign control, over the railway revenues in order to ensure that the railway police will be properly paid; and he has been instructed to consult with his colleagues with a view to secure joint action on these lines by all the powers concerned. His Majesty's Government have no reason to attribute bad faith to the Government at Peking.

Imperial Conference

Wireless Communications

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is able to state whether the subject of Empire wireless is to be considered at the forthcoming Imperial Conference?

It is contemplated that the question of wireless communications within the Empire should be considered in the first instance at the Imperial Economic Conference, any questions of principle requiring the attention of the Imperial Conference being referred to the latter.

Why does the hon. Gentleman say that, "in the first instance," we have to wait until the Imperial Conference takes place? Is he not aware that this question has been under the consideration of this and previous Governments for the last 13 years?

The hon. Member asked me in his question whether this subject would be considered at the forthcoming Imperial Conference, and I replied "Yes." I said, "in the first instance," it will be considered at the Economic Conference, as distinct from the Imperial Conference.

British Dominions (Chinese Immigration)

asked the Prime Minister whether he will table for discussion at the forthcoming Imperial Conference the question of the desirability of Australia, Canada, and South Africa according to the subjects of the Chinese Republic full and equal travelling and trading rights in their respective territories, seeing that His Majesty's Government demands similar privileges from the Chinese Government for British merchants and travellers in all parts of China?

I do not anticipate that this particular question will be among the subjects discussed at the forthcoming Imperial Conference.

Peace Treaties

Saar Valley

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has information to the effect that the governing Commission of the Saar Valley maintains an office in Paris; and, if so, what are the purposes for which this office is maintained and who pays for the cost of its upkeep?

The Governing Commission of the Saar Valley has the use of a room in the building occupied by the Secretariat-General of the League of Nations in Paris, the cost of which is defrayed out of Saar revenues for the purpose of preserving liaison with the French Government in the numerous matters in which they and the Saar Governing Commission are jointly interested.

No, Sir, because the Saar Government has not the same interrelations with other Governments.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what reply France has made to the Note expressing the intention of His Majesty's Government to move for an inquiry into the administration of the governing Commission in the Saar Valley?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any communications have taken place with the French Government, and has the French Government expressed any views on the question of the investigation of the method of administration in the Saar Valley and the alleged grievances of the inhabitants by a Commission to be appointed by a competent authority?

I must refer the hon. and gallant Members to the reply given by me on the 6th instant to the hon. Member for Penrith and Cockermouth.

In view of the fact that an apparently authentic statement by the French Prime Minister has appeared in the Press, can we not have further information of an official character?

A certain specific question was put on the Paper, and I cannot go outside that. The reply to that question will be found in the answer to which I have referred the hon. Member.

German Reparation

asked the Prime Minister what action the Government is now taking to secure for Great Britain a just share of German reparation payments and the payment of Allied debts?

I am unable to say more than that the subject is engaging the attention of the Government at the present moment.

Will the Government bear in mind that the only bargain made until now is that Britain is to pay, and may we have a bargain made by the government that Britain is to receive reparation?

British Trade With Spain

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the fact that it is considered necessary to retain at Madrid a commercial secretariat of five persons in addition to a consular secretariat of four persons, he will state the increase in the volume of trade between this country and Spain since 1914, when there was no commercial secretariat in Madrid and the consular duties were performed by one honorary consular officer?

British exports to Spain represented in 1913, 1·49 per cent. of the total export trade of the United Kingdom; in 1921, 1·92 per cent.; in 1922, 1·66 per cent.; and in the first quarter of 1923, 1·67 per cent. I can supply the hon. and gallant Member, if he desires it, with figures showing the value of our exports to Spain in each of these years, but owing to the wide fluctuations in the level of prices, they will not afford a basis of comparison. I may add that changes in the volume of our export trade with any particular market do not appear to me to afford, especially in the disturbed conditions of the last few years, a satisfactory criterion of the utility of our commercial diplomatic officers and their staffs. As regards the consular staff in Madrid, I would point out that a Consular officer, in addition to his commercial work, has other duties to perform, the bulk of which has largely increased since the War, especially in respect of passports, payment of pensions, registration of British subjects, etc.

In countries where we have lost trade is that not an additional reason for appointing another commercial attaché?

Alcoholism (Copenhagen Congress)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether an invitation has been received from the Royal Danish Government for a delegation to attend an international congress against alcoholism to be held in Copenhagen in August; whether the invitation has been accepted; and whether it is proposed to defray the cost out of public moneys?

The answer to the first and second parts of the question is in the affirmative. In reply to the third part of the question, it is not anticipated that any expense, chargeable on public funds, will be incurred.

Government Departments

Foreign Office

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the number of persons now employed at the Foreign Office and the number so employed in July, 1914?

Passport Control Service

asked the Prime Minister what Government Department is responsible for the organisation and operations of the Passport Control Service; what is the number, the duties, and the salaries of the officials employed in this service; whether their reports are restricted to passport matters; and, if so, whether, in the interests of economy, the service could be placed under the control of the diplomatic and consular officers?

I have been asked to reply to this question. The Passport Control Service is under the Foreign Office. The number of officials employed at home and abroad is 42. Their duties consist in dealing with applications for visas from aliens desirous of visiting the United Kingdom, the Dominions and the Colonies, and with correspondence relating thereto. Their salaries, with the exception of that of one officer who receives £1,400 a year, vary between £1,000 for certain chief passport control officers and £350, which is the normal rate for examiners. Their reports are restricted to matters relevant to the proper discharge of their duties. At certain posts, where the passport control work is not too heavy to conflict with their normal duties, it has already been placed in charge of His Majesty's consular officers, and this process is being continued so far as is compatible with the efficiency of both services.

Heating of Government Offices

asked the First Commissioner of Works if there is a rule that the heating of Government offices is to cease on 1st May; and, if so, taking into consideration the variability of the English climate and the recent extreme cold, he will cause the rule to be so altered as to permit of discretionary powers in regard to the date of cessation of heating?

The answer is in the affirmative. It is proposed that in future the period during which Government offices are artificially heated shall be governed by the actual climatic conditions prevailing, rather than by the calendar.

Russia

French Commercial Mission

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that a French commercial mission is now visiting Russia; if he can state what is the composition of that mission and what are the industrial and financial organisations it represents; and if His Majesty's Government is being kept informed of its activities by the British agent in Moscow?

Instead of worrying about what the French are doing, would it not be better if the British Government also sent a commercial commission to Russia?

Will the hon. Gentleman consider the propriety of making inquiries as to whether that is the case or not?

I am sure that reports will be sent if our agent considers the matter to be sufficiently important.

Relations With Japan

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if His Majesty's Ambassador at Tokio has reported upon the reception recently accorded to the envoy of the Russian Government to Japan; and whether His Majesty's Government has reason to believe that the de jure recognition of the Russian Government by Japan is probable, if not imminent?

My information is that M. Joffe, who is the Soviet representative at Peking, arrived in Japan early in February in a private capacity. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

Reply to British Note

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a reply has been received from the Russian Government to the Note from His Majesty's Government of 29th May; if so, what is the nature of the reply; and when both the Note and the reply will be laid before Parliament?

The reply of the Russian Government has been received this morning, but I am not yet in a position to make any statement.

Will the right hon. Gentleman try to put the reply on the Table of this House before it appears in the public Press?

I cannot say. I am not quite sure as to the procedure for putting these things on the Table, but I suppose the hon. Member will desire that the answer should be made known as soon as possible. If he will put the question down to-morrow, I may be able to give him an answer.

May I take it that the Trade Agreement with Russia will not be broken off without the previous sanction of the House of Commons?

Fishing Rights (Concession to Norwegian Subject)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Russian Government has confirmed the concession to a Norwegian subject, named Christiansen, granting him certain fishing rights within the 12-mile limit in the northern waters of the Russian Socialist Federated Soviet republics from 51 degrees to 67 degrees latitude; and whether an effort will be made to negotiate a similar agreement on behalf of British fishermen?

A report to this effect has been brought to my notice, but I am not yet able to state how far it may be correct. Pending the outcome of the present discussions with the Soviet Government, I am unable to make any statement on the issue involved in the last part of the question, except that His Majesty's Government are unable to admit the right of the Russian Government to grant concessions of fishing rights in the high seas outside territorial waters.

British Property (Sale)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps are being taken to prevent the sale in Great Britain of property belonging to British nationals or British companies in Russia which has been appropriated by the Russian Soviet Government and in respect of which no compensation has been paid to the owners?

I gave my hon. Friend all the information possible on this subject in reply to his question on the 7th May.

Does the hon. Gentleman not think it a very grave scandal that facilities should be given in this country for the sale of British goods stolen in Russia?

British Creditors

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the pronouncement of the late President of the Board of Trade on 22nd December, 1920 (vide OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 136, cols. 1874 and 1877) as to Russian liability for debts and as to the impossibility of abrogating in favour of Russia the rights of British citizens of protection by British Courts; and, in view of the fact that some £180,000,000 is claimed by the British creditors of Russia for bonds and for properties confiscated in 1917 and subsequently, he will make representations to the Soviet Government that a continuance of trade agreement must depend upon an immediate recognition of debts and a return of confiscated property?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for South Hackney (Captain Erskine-Bolst) on the 30th May.

Prohibition Laws, United States

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many vessels of British or Canadian registry are at present detained by the American Government because of alleged offences against the liquor laws of the United States, and the period of such detention; whether any British or Canadian officers or men are at present detained as prisoners; if so, what is the period of their detention; how many of the ships seized by the American Government were captured outside the three-mile limit; and will he lay all the papers connected with the subject upon the Table of the House?

So far as His Majesty's Government are aware, one vessel fully registered in Canada is at present detained by the United States authorities on the grounds mentioned. It has been detained for over a year. No British subject is to our knowledge detained as a prisoner. In the large majority of the cases referred to in my reply to the hon. Member of the 6th June, the vessel concerned was seized outside the three-mile limit. No useful object would be served by laying Papers.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the exports of alcoholic liquors from Great Britain to the Bahamas in 1914 consisted of 27 imperial gallons of whisky, 59 proof gallons and 1,472 dozen quarts of whisky, and 9,425 gallons of ales, porters, and stouts; that in the month of January 3,000,000 quarts of miscellaneous liquors, mostly Scotch whisky, were imported at the Long Quay at Nassau from Great Britain; that most of this is intended for the illicit running into the United States; and will he consider what steps will be taken to prevent the continuance of such action?

I have been asked to reply. I have no official figures regarding the whisky imports of the Bahamas for last January. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer to my answer to the similar questions of the hon. Members for Bermondsey West and Hull Central on the 7th May, and also to those of the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to the questions of the hon. Members for Taunton and Bodmin on the 11th and 16th April.

How is it the hon. Gentleman cannot give the information when I have been able to get it from the official publications of the particular Departments in the United States?

Is it correct to say that the quantities of liquor referred to are less than 1 per cent. of the pre-prohibition American drink bill?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the vessels which clear from British ports with cargoes of spirits ostensibly for the Bahamas never arrive there?

I have heard rumours to that effect. The Bahamas possess a Legislature with an elected majority over which we have no control, and they would very much resent any interference by us with their legislation.

Can this Government interfere with the legislation of the American Government?

asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government will consider the advisability of taking up the question of applying retaliatory measures to American ships arriving in British and other harbours in order to induce the United States Government to modify their views on what have always been regarded as matters of international comity, and in view of the new regulations that are being enforced on foreign ships that sailed for the United States ports after 10th June?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer I gave him on 5th June, in which I stated that representations had been made to the United States Government. The operation of the new regulations on British ships is being carefully watched, and the question whether it may become necessary, in defence of important British interests, to resort to special measures designed to counteract the injuries inflicted on them by American legislation will receive due consideration.

Warsaw—Lord Cavan's Visit

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the visit of the chief of the general staff, Lord Cavan, to Warsaw and the military inspections which he carried out there were undertaken with official approval and with the knowledge of the Foreign Office?

The answer is in the affirmative. The object of Lord Cavan's visit of courtesy to Warsaw was explained by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War, in answer to a question by the hon. Member for North Norfolk on the 30th May.

Passports

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the present charge for a British passport; what was the pre-War charge for same; and whether it is proposed to reduce the existing charge?

In 1914 the charge for a British passport was 2s. On 1st February, 1915, when passports of the modern type were introduced, the fee was raised to 5s. In 1920 the fee was increased to 7s. 6d., which is the present charge. There is no present intention to reduce the existing charge.

Is there any idea of increasing the life of the passport, say, from two years to five or ten years?

Ruhr Occupation

Extent

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent the French occupation of the Ruhr extends beyond the actual mining district; whether towns in Baden and Bavaria have been occupied; and can he state how many such towns are now in French occupation and give their names?

So far as I am aware, the French occupation of the Ruhr is confined in general to the mining and industrial districts. The principal towns occupied in Baden are Karlsruhe (part), Mannheim, Appenweier and Offenburg. No Bavarian towns are in French occupation, other than those in the Bavarian Palatinate, which lies within the territory occupied under the Rhineland Agreement.

Present Situation

asked the Prime Minister whether he is able to make any further statement with regard to the situation on the Ruhr?

Will the Prime Minister be able to make a statement prior to the Debate in another place which, I understand, will be heard to-morrow?

I am not aware that a Debate will take place to-morrow. It would be better to put a question down.

League of Nations

British Representatives

asked the Prime Minister if he can give the names of the British representatives at the next meetings of the Council and Assembly of the League of Nations?

If I repeat the question this day week, will the right hon. Gentleman have found the nominees for this service?

I could not say, but there would be no harm in putting the question down.

Will the Prime Minister, in considering this matter, consider whether the delegation should not be made more representative of the nation as a whole by selecting either delegates or substitute delegates from one or other of the parties in opposition?

asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government that the Lord Privy Seal shall in future represent this country at meetings of the Assembly and Council of the League of Nations; whether it will be part of his duties to devote special attention to the relations of this country with the League at such times as the Assembly and Council are not in session; and whether he will answer questions regarding the League in this House?

asked the Prime Minister if the Lord Privy Seal has been appointed Minister for the League of Nations; if he will represent Great Britain on the Council of the League; and if questions relating to the League should be addressed to him?

May I ask your ruling, Mr. Speaker, on a matter of precedence? I handed in my question, No. 50, a week ago, for answer last Wednesday, and, at the request of the Prime Minister, I postponed it. As soon as the notice of my postponement appeared on the Paper, Question No. 46 appeared, which, as I think you will agree, is in almost identical terms with my question, and I would ask why it has been given precedence of my question?

I agree that, if the facts are as stated by the hon. Member, the postponed question ought to have appeared first. I must inquire as to when the other was handed in.

I shall answer Questions Nos. 46 and 50 together. There is no such appointment as Minister for the League of Nations. The Lord Privy Seal will represent His Majesty's Government on the Council of the League in precisely the same manner as the Earl of Balfour did formerly. Questions relating to the League necessarily concern the conduct of foreign affairs, and should, therefore, be addressed to the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and not to the Lord Privy Seal.

Did I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that the Lord Privy Seal would represent us on the Council of the League, and, in that case, why was I refused that information on the previous question? May I have an answer, Mr. Speaker?

May I put it to you as a point of Order? When the Government refuses information, we must take it as being in good faith, and here we have a case where the information asked for, while refused me, is given to a supporter of the Government in answer to a subsequent question. May I ask for your protection in that matter?

I apologise to the hon. and gallant Member. I am afraid that by an oversight the word "Council," in the hon. and gallant Member's question, was not noticed, and my attention was entirely directed to the word "Assembly."

British Government Support

asked the Prime Minister whether it is the purpose of His Majesty's Government to give constant support to the League of Nations and to avail itself to the fullest degree of the League of Nations machinery as an instrument for the execution of its foreign policy?

His Majesty's Government will, in the future as in the past, give constant support to the League, and they will continue to refer to it questions suitable for settlement through its instrumentality.

May we have an answer to the second part of the question, as to whether the Government proposes "to avail itself to the fullest degree of the League of Nations machinery"?

Ex-Service Men (Employment)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the public interest and importance of the question and the necessity of finding employment for ex-service officers and men, the Government will give facilities for discussing and voting on the Motion standing on the Order Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley.—[" To call attention to the number of persons employed temporarily and permanently in many Government Departments who, in addition to the receipt of large salaries, amounting in some cases to over £1,000 per year, are also recipients of pensions paid out of national, Colonial, or Indian funds exceeding £250 a year; and to move a Resolution. "]

I regret that it is quite impossible, in view of the state of Parliamentary business, to grant facilities for the discussion referred to.

Would the right hon. Gentleman ask one of his assistants at the Treasury to go into the question, and is he aware that some ex-officers who are in receipt of large pensions are actually doing work upon which ordinary workmen should be engaged?

I have no objection at all to looking into it, but I fancy that to a certain extent the question is exaggerated by the hon. Member.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House the authority for that statement?

Trade Facilities Act

asked the Prime Minister how much money has been advanced or guaranteed during the present year under the Trade Facilities Act, and when there will be an opportunity of discussing these guarantees or advances?

The Act does not authorise advances. The hon. and gallant Member will find particulars of the guarantees given down to 31st March last in the quarterly Statements presented to the House, the last of which is House of Commons Paper 49 of 1923. Since that Return nearly £3,000,000 has been guaranteed. The granting of guarantees under the Act could be discussed on the Vote for my salary.

Inspectors of Taxes

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Board of Inland Revenue have, during the past two years, transferred to the inspectors of taxes large powers and responsibilities which by Statute are within the province of the Commissioners for the general purposes of the Income Tax; and, seeing that on previous occasions Parliament has not thought fit to sanction such transfer, is it his intention to give the House the opportunity of expressing an opinion on a matter of immediate concern to the taxpayer?

No, Sir. The suggestion that the powers conferred by Statute upon the General Commissioners of Income Tax have been transferred by the Board of Inland Revenue to the inspectors of taxes is entirely without foundation.

Will instructions be given, in this year of reassessment, that the Board of Inland Revenue should keep strictly within the terms of the Income Tax Acts?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on several occasions during the last 50 years this House has refused to grant to the Board of Inland Revenue powers——

Trawling, Scotland

asked the Prime Minister if he will introduce legislation prohibiting trawling within a 14-mile limit around the Scottish coast?

I have been asked to reply. My Noble Friend the Secretary for Scotland has recently appointed a Committee to inquire and report on the present legislative position as to beam and otter trawling off the coasts of Scotland. Pending the Report of the Committee, he thinks it would be premature to consider whether any further restrictive measures are desirable and practicable.

Is not the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that, particularly in the Island of Lewis, about 30,000 of the population at this moment are on the verge of starvation as a result of the method of trawling that is going on in and around, particularly the northern, coasts of Scotland?

Agriculture

Land Improvement (Loans)

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will give figures showing the amount of the advances made by the State under the Improvement of Land Act, 1864, and the Settled Land Acts, 1882 to 1922; and the amount of loans issued under those Acts for drainage, reclamation, afforestation, farm buildings, dwellings, and other purposes?

The State does not and cannot make any advances under the Acts specified in the question. The money is advanced by the companies authorised by private Acts to make advances for such purposes or by individuals. I am sending the hon. Member particulars of the loans issued.

Agricultural Committee, Gloucestershire

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that, though he invited the Gloucestershire Agricultural Committee to nominate cer- tain persons to serve on that body, the Department has ignored the nominations which have been made, and that other persons have been nominated by the Ministry of Agriculture, some of whom have attended only one meeting during the year; and whether, of the 16 persons nominated by the Ministry of Agriculture, only two are Labour representatives?

I cannot agree with the suggestion contained in the first part of the hon. Member s question. The Gloucestershire Agricultural Committee submitted for my consideration the names of all the members whom I had previously appointed, together with two additional names. As it was clear that all the persons whose names were submitted could not be selected, I decided to re-appoint the members whom I had previously appointed, as there appeared to be no adequate reason why they should not be re-appointed. Moreover, their attendances seemed to compare favourably with those of other members of the committee. In reply to the second part of the question, the 16 members appointed by me include three Labour representatives, as well as a representative of smallholders.

Notts Commissioners of Sewers (Rate)

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that the Notts Commissioners of Sewers have levied a rate in Leicestershire under a scheme sanctioned by the Ministry; and will he, in future schemes of this kind, see that all the bodies affected by any such rate are represented on the body imposing it?

The Ministry has not instituted the levying of any rate by the Notts Commissioners of Sewers, and, indeed, has no power to interfere in any way with the exercise by a Commission of Sewers of their statutory duties in the matter of the levying of rates. I understand, however, that the Notts Commission have levied a rate to enable them to refund to the Ministry one-quarter of the-cost of certain work which has recently been carried out, the whole cost of which would normally have fallen upon the ratepayers concerned but for the financial benefits afforded by the Ministry's drainage programme for the relief of unemployment. With regard to the last part of the question, the qualifications of Commissioners of Sewers are laid down by Act of Parliament, but, generally speaking, such representation as my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind is provided for.

Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that this example of taxation without representation is justified?

Barley

asked the Minister of Agriculture how many farmers there are in England, Scotland and Wales; and how many of them in each country grow more than five acres of barley?

The numbers of occupiers of agricultural land exceeding one acre in extent in 1922 was 356,773 in England and 57,942 in Wales. The number of "farmers" in Scotland is estimated to be 65,000. The information desired in the latter part of the question cannot be given without a detailed examination of nearly half-a-million schedules.

The schedules are in the right hon. Gentleman's possession. Would it not be an easy matter to supply the information?

Is it not greatly to the advantage of the public that the information should be provided?

The information will be undoubtedly very expensive to supply. The schedules are not in my possession.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise how important the question is in view of the fact that there-is to be a tax on imported barley.

Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the advisability of issuing the information which my hon. Friend seeks?

St. James's Park (Lake)

asked the First Commissioner of Works what is the total sum expended, or to be expended, on the lake in St. James's Park, and by what date it is expected to be filled?

The total estimated expenditure is £31,700. It is hoped that the lake will be filled by the end of next month.

Royal Air Force (W. H. Shepherd)

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether his attention has been called to the case of Boy W H. Shepherd, No. 362641, serving at Halton, who was inoculated for typhoid fever in February, 1922, vaccinated against smallpox in June, 1922, and has also received several doses of anti-acne vaccine on account of a violent eruption on his face and neck, believed to be due to the inoculations he had previously received; and whether, seeing that this boy's health is very poor compared with his condition when he joined the Air Force, under the circumstances, he can see his way to discharging him?

The case referred to had already been brought to my notice, and I am informed by my medical advisers that there can be no connection between the inoculation and vaccination which the boy underwent in February and June, 1922, respectively, and the acne which he developed in September, 1922. As regards the latter part of the question, I am assured that the boy is now in perfect health, but the question of his discharge on grounds other than those of health is being considered.

London Museums (Sunday Opening)

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he is aware that the National Gallery, British Museum, Tate Gallery, and London Museum are open for two hours only on Sunday afternoons, two to four o'clock; and whether he will make representations be the authorities with a view to the hours being extended during the summer months?

The right hon. Member appears to be under a misapprehension. The galleries and London Museum are open for four hours (namely, from 2 p.m. to 6 p.m.) on Sundays during the months April to October inclusive. The British Museum is also open on Sundays from 2 p.m. to 6 p.m. during the months April to September inclusive and from 2 p.m. to 5 p.m. during October. The second part of the question does not therefore arise.

Can the right hon. Baronet see his way to recommend the authorities still further to extend the hours?

Of course the right hon. Gentleman will realise that all this means more work on officials and caretakers on Sundays. The effort we have made is to try to meet the convenience of the public, without unduly imposing extra work on Sundays.

Telephone Directory (Advertisements)

asked the Postmaster-General the amount of the profit derived from advertisements in the telephone directories for the years 1919 and 1920; whether a change in the contractor was made in the latter year; and what was the amount of the profit in the years 1921 and 1922?

The revenue from advertisements for the one edition of the telephone directories issued during 1919 was £33,250. The revenue for the following three years, in each of which two editions of the directories were issued, was £71,242 for 1920, £107,518 for 1921, and £95,824 for 1922. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative.

How far does this advertisement revenue meet the cost of publishing the directory?

How far does the Government propose to adopt this system of State Socialism?

Coal Industry

Splint Coal, Scotland (Exports)

asked the Secretary for Mines whether he can state the quantity of splint coal being exported from Scotland; and what is the export price?

I regret that no separate export figures for splint coal are available. The current export prices are 25s. to 26s. per ton f.o.b. for the best qualities and one or two shillings less for ordinary qualities.

Since the hon. and gallant Gentleman says the coal is not separated, and in view of the fact that the blast furnaces must have splint coal in order to smelt the ore, will he take steps to see that none of this valuable coal, supplies of which are becoming more short every day, are not sent out of the country, but remain here for the purpose of smelting iron ore?

I do not think I can promise to do as much as that, but I will certainly go into the question of the shortage that exists.

Nystagmus

asked the Secretary for Mines whether his attention has been drawn to the dissent of Mr. Frederick Robson from the findings of the Medical Research Committee, as expressed by him in a paper he read recently before the South Wales Institute of Engineers, as to the cause of miners' nystagmus, in which paper Mr. Robson gave evidence in support of his theory that miners' nystagmus is caused by the inhalation of noxious gases given off in the coal face and not to the defective illumination of miners' lamps as given in the findings of the said Committee; and, in view of the character of the evidence submitted, if he will institute further inquiry into the whole matter?

I have seen Dr. Robson's paper. The evidence in support of his theory has been considered carefully by the four doctors who constitute the Committee referred to, and they are, unanimously, unable to accept that theory. I appreciate that Dr. Robson has devoted much time and care to the study of nystagmus, and every theory supported by evidence should be considered. This has been done by a body of whose authority there can be no doubt, and I see no reason for instituting any other inquiry than that which has been entrusted to the Committee.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that nystagmus is rapidly on the increase amongst underground workers every year, and that we ought to have the fullest possible inquiry?

We have had the fullest possible inquiry. The question has been submitted to a committee of the best experts I could find, and they have come to the conclusion that gas has no direct influence on the disease.

Unemployment

Benefit, Southampton

asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to the position of about 60 men formerly employed by Messrs. Harland and Woolf, Limited, and Messrs J. I. Thornycroft and Company, Limited, Southampton, who have been refused unemployment benefit; whether he is aware that two test cases were before the Court of Referees on 31st April last, and although an appeal has been entered against their decision, no further steps have yet been taken; and whether he will explain the reason for this delay and take action to expedite a settlement of the question?

I cannot trace any eases heard on the dates specified in the question. Nine test cases of workpeople last employed with the firms mentioned were heard by the Court of Referees on the 31st May. The Court recommended that the claims should be disallowed, and the insurance officer has accepted their recommendation. His decision was communicated to the claimants or their associations on the 7th June. If these decisions are appealed from to the Umpire I will make arrangements that they shall be dealt with as expeditiously as possible.

Were these cases turned down in consequence of information from the employers?

I do not for a moment accept the suggestion underlying that question. No case is turned down merely on the statement of one side. If it be turned down, it is after examination of all the circumstances on both sides.

Before claims are turned down in consequence of information from the employers, will they be laid before the workmen before a final decision be given?

Again I cannot accept that suggestion, which is untrue. It is not fair to put it in that form.

Is it not a fact that some of these men who have been refused benefit on the ground that they are taking part in a dispute, have received notices from their employers that they had been stopped because of slackness of trade?

It is very difficult to reply to the right hon. Gentleman unless he gives me the cases. I cannot profess to carry all these cases in my mind, nor have I all the facts in mind. If he will put a question on the Paper, I shall be glad to give him an answer.

Fishery Workers, Scotland (Exemption Certificates)

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is now prepared to make a statement as to the facilities to be given to Scottish seasonal workers in the herring fishery who desire to claim exemption under the Unemployment Insurance Acts?

I have looked into this question and have made arrangements under which applications for certificates of exemption made by Scottish seasonal workers in the herring fishery will be dealt with promptly. Further, I am simplifying the process of renewal. Application for an original certificate must be made as at present on form U.I. 468 a, obtainable at any Employment Exchange. Persons holding a certificate, but desiring to renew it, need only write, giving particulars of the previous certificate, to the Ministry of Labour Exemptions Branch, Bromyard Avenue, London, W. 3. A special explanatory leaflet (of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy) is being issued, through the Exchanges in the districts concerned. The certificates and renewals, when issued, will ordinarily cover the period from the date of application to the end of the local fishing season.

Medical Certificates (Advertisements)

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that advertisements are being printed on the back of medical certificates granted in connection with the National Health Insurance; and whether he will take some action to relieve medical officers of acting as advertising agents for foodstuffs of which they may disapprove?

I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply given on the 16th May to the right hon. Member for Derby.

Has the Department received a very strong protest against this from the Medical Practitioners' Union, and a suggestion that the space now used for the advertisement of a certain sort of foodstuff should be used to more advantage for a concise explanatory statement relating to National Health Insurance?

Explosives, Liverpool Docks

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the statement made at a meeting of the Mersey Dock and Harbour Board that a large quantity of explosives was sent at the instance of the War Office into Liverpool Docks; that fire broke out in the trucks containing such explosives; and that only prompt action on the part of the dock employés averted a terrible disaster; and has he any statement to make on the matter?

My attention has been called to this incident. The explosive was in the docks with the consent of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, and was, I understand, being handled with the precautions stipulated for by that Board. The police had been informed, and a military guard was present. Fire did not break out in the trucks containing the explosive, but some live cinders fell near the trucks through an accident to a passing steam crane, for which the War Department had no responsibility. The matter is still under close investigation with a view particularly to seeing whether any additional precautions can be secured in the case of further necessary moves of explosives, but I am advised that in the case now in question there would have been little risk of an explosion even had the fire not been so promptly extinguished as it was.

Is it the case, as reported in the Press this morning, that in future explosives are to be sent to other ports, particularly Southampton?

Are we to understand that propér precautions will be taken to prevent any possibility of further accidents of this kind?

If the hon. Member will read carefully the answer which I have given, he will see that I said precautions are being taken. In this particular case the accident was one over which neither the War Office nor the Harbour Board had any control.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his statements are at variance with the statement of the chairman of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board at a meeting held last week, when very serious allegations were made against the Government?

Has it come to the hon. Gentleman's knowledge that there is very strong feeling and misgiving in Liverpool about this method being adopted, and that other methods should be adopted; further, can the Government see their way to supplement the ridiculously and almost insultingly small rewards given to the men who saved property and the lives of many people in Liverpool?

The last part of the Supplementary Question does not arise out of the main Question. I will have inquiries made. I understand that some reward has been given by the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board. With regard to the other part of the Question, explosives must be moved, and it is a question whether it should be by rail or sea, and which is the safest method.

Bulgaria (Revolution)

( by Private Notice ) asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information about the reported revolution in Bulgaria, and what is the attitude of His Majesty's Government towards the provisional Government that has been set up?

The information received from His Majesty's Minister at Sofia up to the present merely confirms the reports published in this morning's Press. The situation is still obscure and uncertain, and His Majesty's Government must naturally await further information before considering the attitude to be adopted towards the new Government.

Trade Agreement (Russia)

In reference to the business of the House, may I ask the Prime Minister whether, when any statement is made on the reply of the Russian Government to the last Note of the British Government, that statement will be made in this House not later than the statement in another place, or, at any rate, simultaneously with that statement?

I have not received notice of the question of the hon. and gallant Member, but I think that I can give an undertaking that what he asks shall be done.

State Management (Liquor Trade) Abolition Bill,

"to abolish State management of the liquor trade," presented by Colonel Sir ARTHUR HOLBROOK; supported by Mr. Remer, Mr. Samuel Roberts, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Frederick Hall, Lieut.-Colonel James, Mr. Howard, and Colonel Perkins; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 159.]

HOUSING, &c. (No. 2), BILL

Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee A. Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 86.]

Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed [No. 86.]

Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Tuesday 19th June, and to be printed. [Bill 160.]

Standing Committees (Chairmen's Panel)

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Chairmen's Panel: That they had appointed Mr. Hodge to act as Chairman of Standing Committee D (in respect of the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions Bill).

Report to lie upon the Table.

Selection (Standing Committees)

Standing Committee D

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee D: Mr. William Greenwood, Sir Beddoe Rees, Sir Allan Smith, and Lieut.-Colonel Lambert Ward.

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Members to Standing Committee D (during the consideration of the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions Bill): Mr. Hayes, Mr. Kirkwood, Sir Francis Lowe, Mr. Lynn, Mr. Muir, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Pretyman, Captain Rankin, Mr. Remer, Mr. Samuel Roberts, Mr. Singleton, Sir Courtenay Warner, and Dr. Watts.

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Fourteen Members to Standing Committee D (in respect of the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions Bill): Mr. Adams, Captain Brass, Sir William Bull, Mr. Neville Chamberlain, Captain Elliot, Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle, Major Lloyd George, Sir Ernest Hiley, Mr. Oliver, Lord Eustace Percy, Sir Philip Pilditch, Mr. Turner, Mr. Sidney Webb, and Major Wheler.

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee D: Mr. William M. Adamson, Mr. Bromfield, Mr. Duffy, Mr. Harper Parker, Mr. Shinwell, Mr. Tom Smith, Mr. George Spencer, Mr. Westwood, Mr. Whiteley, Mr. David Williams, and Mr. John Williams; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Rhys Davies, Mr. Duncan Graham, Mr. Groves, Mr. Thomas Henderson, Mr. Hill, Mr. Mardy Jones, Mr. McEntee, Lieut.-Colonel Watts-Morgan, Mr. James Stewart, Mr. Sullivan, and Mr. Wheatley.

Reports to lie upon the Table.

Orders of the Day

Finance [Expenses] (Consolidated Fund)

Considered in Committee, under Standing Order No. 71A.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision, among other matters, for amending the law relating to the National Debt, it is expedient, in lieu of the existing provisions with respect to the permanent annual charge for the National Debt and the New Sinking Fund,—

I think that it may be well to say a few words in introducing this Financial Resolution in Committee. It is not a Resolution imposing a charge on the subject, and it has not therefore to be moved in Committee of Ways and Means. It is a Resolution authorising payment out of the Consolidated Fund and is moved in Committee of the whole House. I do not think that this is the occasion on which to go into detail on the merits of the proposal because this Resolution really authorises the Clause 18 of the Finance Bill, on which probably there will be a great deal to be said on all sides of the House. But unless this Resolution be passed, the Committee will not be able to discuss Clause 18. I think, however, that I may say a few words about the Financial Resolution itself as leading up to that Clause. It does away with the provision of the Sinking Fund Act, 1875, which was introduced by Sir Stafford Northcote. It introduces this year a new Sinking Fund which, in the view of the Government, is more convenient than the previous Sinking Fund. The earlier provision set up a Fixed Debt Charge, part of which went to interest and management and the balance became the New Sinking Fund applicable out of revenue for the redemption of Debt. The amount originally set aside to cover the Debt charges, the balance of which was to be used as I have indicated, was a sum of £28,000,000. That figure in subsequent years suffered alteration on more than one occasion, and immediately before the War it stood at £24,500,000. The Sinking Fund portion was not a fixed amount, but the Committee may take it that just before the War a token sum in the neighbourhood of £7,000,000 or £8,000,000 might have been expected to be utilised for that purpose.

The proposal of the Government, as I tried to explain on the Budget, is to substitute a fixed and definite amount of £40,000,000 in the current year, £45,000,000 next year, and £50,000,000 in the near year and subsequent years. That figure is expected to cover the obligatory Sinking Funds which have been created by various Acts of Parliament passed during the War, and anything then left over will be devoted to other forms of redemption of Debt. The only item, and it is not a large one, which I have not specifically mentioned so far is that portion of payment on terminable annuities which represents capital. That amount will be included in the Sinking Funds to be provided under the 18th Clause of the Finance Bill this year.

I may mention one or two other things. In the main, I think that paragraphs ( a ) and ( b ) explain themselves. They specify the figure, and they give permission to apply those sums, when paid out of the Consolidated Fund, for the purpose of the redemption or paying off of Debt. Paragraph ( c ) preserves the power to issue out of the Consolidated Fund for interest and management on pre-War Debt. I hope—that is a matter for the Committee to decide—that we shall not have too protracted a discussion at this stage, because if we try to do that we shall find ourselves perhaps debarred by the rules of Order from the wider and freer discussion to which the Committee will look forward when we come to Clause 18 of the Bill. But I shall be pleased, or my right hon. Friend will be pleased, so far as time permits, to answer any criticism which may be made at this stage. With those few preliminary words I commend the Resolution to the Committee.

I would ask for your ruling, Mr. Hope, as to whether I am to move the Amendment standing in the name of myself and a number of my hon. Friends—to leave out from the first paragraph the words

"in lieu of the existing provisions with respect to the permanent annual charge for the National Debt and the new Sinking Fund."

If the object of this Resolution was merely to abolish the old Sinking Fund without establishing a new Sinking Fund, that could be done by rejecting the Resolution. If, on the other hand, the desire is to have two Sinking Funds, that is beyond the scope of the Resolution for which the King's recommendation has been signified, and is therefore not in order.

4.0 P.M.

Then it is open to those of us who have put our names to the Amendment to make our observations by opposing the whole Resolution. As the Prime Minister has explained, the proposal of the Government is to set aside a Sinking Fund of between £40,000,000 and £50,000,000 a year for the purpose of dealing with the National Debt. We on these benches have expressed our opinion, in the discussion on the Budget and on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill, that when we have to deal with a Debt of over £7,000,000,000, a Sinking Fund of between £40,000,000 and £50,000,000 is totally insufficient, and we shall renew our protest at this meagre amount at each subsequent stage of this Bill. The Amendment on the Paper was intended to call attention to a new point with regard to the Government proposal, which was not very clear when the Budget was intro- duced, and certainly was not made the subject of any discussion at that stage. It now becomes obvious, from this Financial Resolution and from the observations which the Prime Minister has made, that this £40,000,000 or £50,000,000 is not to be the net addition to the amount set aside for dealing with the National Debt and for the special purpose of dealing with that part of the Debt which has been caused by the War. This £40,000,000 or £50,000,000 is obtained by abandoning the old Sinking Fund which was established by Sir Stafford Northcote in 1875, and which at certain intervals has been in force ever since, so that, as is made clear by the Prime Minister's observations, the net addition for the purpose of dealing with the National Debt is not far short of £10,000,000 less than the £40,000,000 or £50,000,000 which has hitherto been mentioned in this House.

We think that this sum of £40,000,000 or £50,000,000 is absolutely inadequate judged by what test you like. I will take the test which has been laid down by the right hon. Genleman's predecessors at that box. When the the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) was Chancellor of the Exchequer he sent round to all the Government Departments that very well-known Circular on the reduction of expenditure, and in that Circular he stated, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, that £100,000,000 a year ought to be set aside for the reduction of the Debt. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain), when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, stated in his Budget speech that £100,000,000 a year was not too much to set aside for the purpose of the National Debt. Take the test which used to be laid down before the War. Before the War the Debt was only about one-tenth that what it is now, and, therefore, did not need so large a Sinking Fund. The Government of that day said that a Sinking Fund of 1 per cent. should be sufficient, and there used to be attacks by hon. Members on the benches opposite on the ground that it was insufficient. Yet 1 per cent. would give you practically double the provision which the Government are now making.

We object to this proposal to abandon the old Sinking Fund for a further reason. The Prime Minister, in the re- marks which he has just made, has stated that he considers that this Sinking Fund is more fitted to deal with the problem that we have to face than the one which he has abandoned. The Sinking Fund established by Sir Stafford Northcote was, in our opinion, established on sounder and superior lines to that which the Prime Minister is putting in its place. The previous Sinking Fund was a cumulative Sinking Fund. It was a Sinking Fund which was to increase year by year as the National Debt was diminished. As the Prime Minister has explained, it was a sum of £28,000,000, of which a certain part was to pay the annual interest on the Debt. The balance was the Sinking Fund, but it was laid down that, as the Debt was diminished and as the interest to be paid on it each year was therefore correspondingly reduced, the sum so saved was to be added to the Sinking Fund, so that it would reduce the Debt with increasing rapidity year by year. That is not the principle which the Prime Minister lays down in his Sinking Fund. His Sinking Fund is to be on the flat rate. It is not to be increased beyond the sum first assigned. However much the Debt may be diminished and however much the annual charge on the Debt may be reduced, the Prime Minister's Sinking Fund does not gain 1s. as a result.

I do not know whether the Prime Minister has calculated how long it will take to pay off the National Debt by a Sinking Fund at his level and established on those principles. If you assume, as you cannot assume, that that Sinking Fund is never going to be raided, if you assume that there is to be no fresh borrowing, and if you assume that it has a history such as no Sinking Fund has had in the past and that it is applied consistently, persistently, and ruthlessly, generation after generation and year after year, then it will take 150 years, according to these proposals, to pay off the National Debt. I think we are justified, when those are the proposals which the Government have placed before us, in saying that it means, in fact, that they have abandoned the problem of the National Debt and that they have left us on these benches as the only party in the country which has a Debt policy to lay before the people.

I do not apologise for offering a few observations on this Resolution at the present stage of our proceedings, because it undoubtedly deals with a matter of the most substantial importance included in this year's Budget scheme. It is, perhaps, not inappropriate that we should debate it at a reasonable hour, because we must remember, though the Prime Minister rightly says that the subject is to recur on a future occasion, that no man knows what hour of the day or night that future occasion may turn out to be. It is the most important element, surely, in this year's Budget scheme, but, before I offer the few observations which I have to make, I should like to ask the Prime Minister what has become of that part of the Financial Resolution which dealt with the financial scheme for the American Debt. The Resolution, since its first appearance, has undergone some truncation of an interesting nature. The matter is worth referring to, because I feel that there is a certain difficulty in discussing the general Debt position without being particularly informed as to what the Government's intentions are as regards questions of policy in relation to the American Debt. Various matters are left open in the settlement with the American Government. There is such a matter as the addition of interest to capital for the current year. We have seen unauthorised or unofficial statements as to what the policy of the Government will be in these matters, but I feel that it would be of great interest and of great value, and is really an essential preliminary to a clear discussion of the general Debt position, that we should be told at some early date what is the general outline of the Government's policy as regards these indeterminate terms of the American Debt settlement.

I now proceed to offer a few observations on this Resolution. The opinion has already been expressed, both by myself and by some of those with whom I am associated, that the provision for Debt redemption made this year is too great. In fact, we are diametrically opposed to the interesting point of view which has just been presented by the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith). I make the Prime Minister a present of that reply which is always so welcome to one winding up a Debate, that he is steering the true course of wisdom between two extremes. I am glad to be able to present him with so charming and easy a position, but, nevertheless, if a point of view be reached, one must not hesitate to advance it because somebody else advances the opposite point of view I believe it stands to reason, and that it is convincing to men of common sense and of business experience, that the provision made for the redemption of Debt this year is too great. I am not going to labour that point on this occasion. Of course, it may be truly said that it is more relevant to other various heads of discussion on the Budget, but, out of courtesy to the hon. Member who has expressed the other point of view, I will just deal for a few moments with the reason for that contention. When the industries of the country are overburdened with taxation you have a very special state of affairs, and you must make your first consideration the relief of industries by the reduction of taxation until you arrive at such a point as they have enough left for the refreshment of industry year by year and the accumulation of fresh capital. You must make that your first interest, and the interest on Debt redemption, high and important as it is and of infinite moment to the credit and prosperity of the country, must take the second place. It must take a second place to the prime necessity of leaving the funds for re-investment big enough to support the industries of the country in a prosperous condition. That is the main reason why we argue in favour of more tax reduction and less Debt redemption this year.

The actual amount required for the obligatory Sinking Fund this year—I take it from the Budget speech of the Prime Minister—is not more than £30,000,000. The actual amount which it is proposed to set aside for this new Sinking Fund this year is £40,000,000. That leaves a clear margin of £10,000,000 above what is necessary in order to meet the statutory and obligatory Sinking Fund. It is, at any rate, a most reasonable contention that it would have been better in the course of this year to take that additional £10,000,000 for the reduction of taxation such as the tax on sugar. Above the requirements for the Statutory Sinking Fund you have just enough left to meet the minimum amount necessary, about £10,000,000, to make a reduction in the Sugar Duty. But the principal contention which I wish to enlarge upon this afternoon is not so much in relation to the total amount set aside to the Sinking Fund for this year, as in relation to the form in which this Sinking Fund programme is laid down. It is laid down in this form—that we are pledging ourselves, taking a sort of voluntary vow that we will pay these sums to the reduction of the Debt this year, next year, and as far ahead as we can go. We are setting up a new fixed Sinking Fund in place of the old Sinking Fund. I feel very grave doubt as to whether there is the truest wisdom in this way of making pledges in advance, of putting fixed sums to the Sinking Fund.

Let me protect myself as clearly as I can from the supposition that I am underestimating the full importance of putting enough to the Sinking Fund. But industry should be left enough to get on with. It is known to everyone of any experience or common sense that the credit of the country must be supported by adequate provision for Sinking Fund. What I am questioning is the wisdom of making these fixed programmes for long ahead. I have often advanced, from another place in this House, this contention in relation to Sinking Fund—that the prudent and wise thing to do is to judge each year upon its own merits, and to put aside for Debt reduction that sum which is the very largest which you find you can afford in the course of that year. But you ought to consider the matter in the light of the circumstances of the year, and you are not really helping yourself or the great cause of Debt reduction by trying to pledge yourself too far ahead. I believe that to be so under ordinary normal circumstances, and, at the risk of a retort which is familiar, I will venture to say that the present circumstances are not ordinary, and that there are elements quite extraordinary in them. Let me point out what the relevant unusual circumstance is. We have now a fixed statutory Sinking Fund. It amounted in the last year to 21·7 millions, and the provision being made this year is 25·4 millions, omitting provision for the American Debt. That takes no account of the other contingent Sinking Fund liability, which is the Sinking Fund liability in respect of the Depreciation Fund and for securities other than Victory Bonds, which may be surrendered for Death Duties. Those are contingent Sinking Fund liabilities which are not allowed for this year, because, of course, the market price would not make it necessary to make provision for depreciation.

You had this great outstanding contingent liability in respect of the Depreciation Fund when the price of certain securities fell beyond a certain point. Looking ahead, what would one say is the prospect of that contingent liability becoming one day again an actual liability? I certainly think that no prudent man would like to lay his hand on his heart and say that it would never more come into operation. The Prime Minister told us in his Budget speech that the maximum liability for Depreciation Fund on the 4 per cent. and 5 per cent. might be £32,000,000. I should have thought it extremely probable that in the course of the next few years provision would once more have to be made for that fund. At present industries are depressed, and there is a good market for gilt-edged securities. If and when trade begins to recover and to become more prosperous, the market for gilt-edged securities will become less active and their prices will fall. One would be inclined to say, if one had to look ahead, that it was more probable than not that within the next few years some further provision would have to be made for the Depreciation Fund.

The point I wish to make is this: That you have contingent and possible liabilities ahead which you cannot fore-estimate. You have a position which is full of doubts as to what your fixed compulsory statutory Sinking Funds are going to "let you in for." Under these circumstances, I can see that there is a great deal to be said for fixing the amount that you are to provide at the present time. You have certain liabilities to meet. You have great contingent liabilities that you do not know. You fix the amount that you put to Sinking Fund without being able to see ahead what those contingent liabilities are to be. I should have thought that there would be a greater measure of prudence in refraining for the present from making a fixed programme for so long a period ahead, and for leaving from year to year the fixing of what the actual amount for reduction of Debt should be. I come back to the general question. If there is no great advantage to be gained by fixing your programme so far ahead, I can see that there is a very substantial advantage to be lost by fixing the programme far ahead. As regards your credit, you are giving a hostage to fortune. We can all agree that once you have made a fixed provision it will do very great harm to your credit if you have to depart from it. On the right occasion, on the occasion of great necessity, you may have to depart from it. Such cases of necessity have arisen in the past.

For instance, last year my right hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne), who was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, made a provision for borrowing to cover the statutory Sinking Fund. I believe that that was quite a right thing to do under the circumstances of the year. Fortunately it turned out to be unnecessary. Still, he did it. But no doubt that was not a good thing for credit as a whole. There is no doubt at all that when you have a fixed programme of Sinking Fund it is bad for credit as a whole to depart from it. I would not have anyone suppose that laying down this programme this year is likely in any sense to be of very much help to future Chancellors of the Exchequer. It never has been in the past. Fixed Sinking Fund provisions are brushed away like cobwebs in the emergency of a year, sometimes rightly and sometimes wrongly. When you come to grips with the Budget and the necessities of the people with regard to taxation, and what was done by some previous Parliament in erecting a Sinking Fund, the fortifications of the Sinking Fund are always found to be almost as strong as cobwebs. You are not helping future Chancellors of the Exchequer by this big programme. If you were quite certain that the provision would be held to, it might be worth doing, but I have advanced reasons for supposing that as matters are still so conjectural for the future, it is more than possible that you will be unable to keep to this provision. It would be very much better to have experience of one year or two years or three years before you lay down a Sinking Fund scheme for the future. Sufficient unto the year is the Sinking Fund thereof.

I must admit it is with some diffidence that I oppose my crudities to the polished certainties of the last speaker, but as one engaged in the industries of the country I wish to put a view somewhat in controversy with his. The right hon. Gentleman has presented a view which was taken very strongly by the right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) in defending his Budget last year. He argues that industry is to be helped more by reduction of taxation than by large reduction of debt. I venture to oppose that view, and for this reason: It appears to me that there is one way only in which a Chancellor of the Exchequer can assist the industries of the country, and that is by a reduction of Government expenditure. No ingenious dividing of the burden between the sinking fund and taxation, or any clever device in budgeting for the raising of the necessary money can ever get over the certainty that the one thing needful is a reduction of the actual expenditure of the Government. If we consider what happens in practice when taxation is raised or when a portion of the debt is repaid by a Sinking Fund we shall see that what I have put forward is no paradox. At present, when an extra burden of taxation is put upon those who conduct the industries of the country, the money necessary for payment of the taxes has almost invariably to be raised from the banks, and the money repaid to bond-holders by means of a Sinking Fund in a large measure goes to release securities held as collateral by the same banks. The effect of the one course or the other is, therefore, automatically discounted. As to the alleged disadvantages of a fixed Sinking Fund, we should bear in mind this fact—that as far as one can see this Government is likely to remain in power, at any rate, for the period during which it is proposed that the Sinking Fund should continue. That being so, it seems to me that a very valuable effect is produced by fixing the Sinking Fund for three years. It raises the credit of the State and reduces interest rates. It must be remembered that there may be a demand for a reduction of taxation next year or the year afterwards. But it is distinctly easier for the Government to resist that demand if it has itself fixed the amount of the Sinking Fund. I do not wish to detain the Committee further, but I thought it was necessary to raise some little protests against the theory advanced by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Norwich.

I think many hon. Members will be found to agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman the late Financial Secretary in his objection to fixing a statutory Sinking Fund for a long period ahead. As he has already observed, it is the immediate resource of any hard-pressed Chancellor of the Exchequer to raid the Sinking Fund, and, as he has also remarked, the legislative restrictions are mere cobwebs in the face of any such determined onslaught. It is no new thing to try to budget ahead. It has been a recurring attempt by Chancellors of the Exchequer in past years. Even Mr. Gladstone was once betrayed into an attempt to budget for a period seven years ahead, but I think I am right in. saying that an unforeseen contingency occurred which destroyed that scheme in the first year. The very greatest in the past have failed in that attempt. To that extent I agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young). But when the hon. and gallant Gentleman says that it is of more importance to industry to reduce taxation than to relieve Debt, even to the extent of practically abandoning any attempt to relieve Debt at all, then I must confess I find myself at variance with him. What does his argument amount to? He says it is essential that taxation should be reduced in order that money may be free for purposes of investment. Surely exactly the same result is obtained, and more certainly obtained, by the redemption of Debt. Money is repaid through the redemption of Debt to the holders of War Bonds and these people will re-invest the money so repaid. If, on the other hand, a remission of taxation is made to the Income Tax payer, it may be argued that the money will also be re-invested—that is the argument of the hon. and gallant Gentleman—but, in that case, there is far more reason to suppose that the money will not be re-invested but will be spent.

In fact, one of the most eminent financial authorities in the country, who can even challenge the hon. and gallant Gentleman—Sir Josiah Stamp—recently contended that no larger proportion than some 2½d. in every 1s. of the Income Tax remitted last year was actually re-invested. That is an opinion to which all financial authorities must accord some weight. In any case, we can put it on this ground, that the money reimbursed to the holders of War Bonds is more likely to be reinvested than the money remitted to the Income Tax payers, for the reason that in one case you are re-paying to the man his capital; in the other, you are simply handing him back a proportion of his income. As in many cases these people were accustomed in the past to have far larger incomes, they will, in those cases, welcome that remission of taxation as an opportunity of returning to a higher standard of life. In fact, many of them are already well known to be borrowing the money to pay taxes from their bankers, and they will, most certainly, employ the remission of taxation for the purpose I have indicated, instead of lowering their standard of life as they would be obliged to do if a high rate of taxation were continued. The hon. and gallant Gentleman, in an article in one of the Sunday papers on this question, observes that the repayment of money to the holders of War Bonds would not result in a real stimulus to the type of industrial activity which he desires to see assisted, in that War Bond holders are inclined to invest their money only in gilt-edged securities. Of course, in the case of Consols or pre-War investments of that nature, that is true, but it is not true of the War Bond holders, for the reason that these were patriotic men who, in their country's great emergency, scraped together all the money which they had in their possession from every conceivable resource, and invested it in order to assist the State. Much of the money so invested, if re-paid to this type of investor, may be re-invested in undertakings of a speculative kind, and I cannot see that the argument of the hon. and gallant Gentleman applies to the holders of War Bonds.

Surely it can be contended that if the only purpose which it is desired to serve is the stimulation of industry by the freeing of money for the purpose of investment, that a greater stimulus would be afforded by means of the redemption of debt than by any remission of taxation. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman had based his argument on other grounds, on the psychological ground that people might be disinclined to exert themselves to the utmost if more than a certain proportion of their earnings were taken by the State, he would be on far stronger ground, but when he appeals to the Committee merely on the argument he has advanced as to the money for re-investment, I cannot see how his case is to be sustained. In this consideration we are omitting altogether the effect upon the credit of the country of any abandonment of any attempt to redeem debt. The hon. and gallant Gentleman spoke of some future depreciation of Government stock making greater charges upon the Sinking Fund. Surely precisely the best way in which to depreciate that stock and make those greater charges upon the Sinking Fund is to abandon any attempt to redeem debt in the near future. That would be the inevitable result of the policy advocated by the hon. and gallant Gentleman.

I am quite sure the hon. Member does not mean to misrepresent me, but he has twice attributed to me the advocacy of the policy of abandoning redemption of debt. That goes far beyond anything I said. I never on any occasion recommended that we should abandon the effort to redeem debt.

I did not mean an eternal abandonment of the attempt to redeem debt, but I understood it was the policy of the party to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman belongs to postpone that attempt temporarily. Do I understand that the hon. and gallant Gentleman disagrees with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) who spoke eloquently on this subject during the Budget Debate and, as I understood him, advocated the postponement for some years of any attempt to make any reduction of debt? I hope the split is not developing. If two such eminent authorities find themselves at variance, then tyros such as myself may well be perplexed. I was trying to meet the argument which I understood was the collective opinion of the National Liberal party. I hope at some subsequent stage of these discussions the hon. and gallant Gentleman will see fit to explain exactly what he does mean and what proportion of the present Sinking Fund he proposes to abandon or postpone for some future occasion, and will thus enlighten us as to what is the collective opinion of himself and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea. I have endeavoured to controvert briefly the general argument which, as I understand it, is that the redemption of debt on any substantial scale should be set aside in favour of a greater remission of taxation.

The proposal to redeem debt and the opposition to that theory are not new things, and we have got to consider how we ought to deal with these proposals and with the opposition to them. I have two matters in mind which disturb me very greatly. One is the high rate of interest which we contracted to pay for some of our National War Loans and War Stock during the War. We entered into an engagement with the persons who lent us money, and we must keep that engagement at all costs and in all circumstances. The other thing I have in mind is this: We have a very large Income Tax, and that the largest charge upon the taxpayer is for paying the interest on the Debt. By reducing the cost of the Debt service we shall put down the amount of Income Tax as well as of other taxes which we have to pay for that purpose. I am all for reduction of Debt, and I believe in the long run, if done in the matter outlined by the Prime Minister, we shall not only reduce out interest commitments and reduce our capital Debt, but at the same time, by the application of this double-edged weapon, we shall reduce the amount which we have to find in Income Tax, and so relieve the taxpayer. I will proceed, if I may, to elaborate the argument in favour of that view. I have already ventured to say a few words on this point during the discussions when the Budget was introduced. If the Government consistently and persistently take for Debt reduction as much as they have recently been taking and go into the market to redeem or convert, the first thing they do is to reduce the amount of Treasury Bills. There is always a large demand for Treasury Bills and Floating Debt by bankers, financial houses and manufacturing people like myself. When I have any money, and I can make no use of it in trade, I buy Treasury Bills. If you reduce the amount of Treasury Bills available to the public, by using the money which you are gathering together for Debt repayment, I find eventually—with a smaller amount of Treasury Bills, Floating Debt, and short-dated paper, and the same or an increasing demand for it, and an always decreasing yield—that it does not pay me to buy that short-dated paper, and the Government Departments themselves hold a large volume of that paper. What do I do? I go into the next longer-dated paper of the Government, which will give me a more reasonable interest, and in doing so I do exactly what is being done by hundreds of other manufacturers and traders like myself. What will the result be? I force up the market price and the capital value of British Government securities. In other words, I help to rehabilitate the credit of my country.

I can never forget that we have entered into a bargain with the lenders of money and that we have the right to repay them £2,000,000,000 in 1929—I think that is the correct year; the Prime Minister will correct me if I am wrong—which we have borrowed from them and upon which we are now paying 5 per cent. I hope with all my heart that the price of 3½ per cent. Conversion Loan may rise from the price at which it now stands, namely, 81, to over 90 or more, so that the Government may go and say to the people who hold the £2,000,000,000 of 5 per cent. Loan, we can repay you in cash by floating a loan of 3½ per cent. at over 90. If you do not like to take the money, the Government will give you stock in a loan like the 3½ per cent. Conversion Loan, costing the country a lesser amount of interest than 5 per cent. If we convert that loan of £2,000,000,000 from 5 per cent. to, say, a cost of 3¾ per cent. all the rest of the Government loans will benefit by the conversion in such a way as to enable us to bring down the interest by private bargain, which is quite a legitimate action, I can conceive in the long run much of our £7,000,000,000 or £8,000,000,000 being reduced by 2 per cent. interest per annum. You can only do that by constant debt reduction, by driving the people's money out of short dated paper into longer dated paper, and so increasing the market value of long dated paper. The increase of capital value of fixed-interest-bearing securities pulls down the value of money and enables the nation to borrow, on conversion, more cheaply. Interest rates fall; you can float Conversion Loans at a less cost for interest. Suppose you go into the market week after week and reduce these Treasury Bills, you have another very excellent result, for you take off the market instruments of credit which are payable at short dates, three, six or nine, or even 12 months, which are always a danger. As a trader I should hate to have a lot of my bills hanging about which might be presented for payment when I was making bad debts. These Bills might be presented to the Treasury when money was tight or in an international crisis. I do not like to see this large amount of over £700,000,000 of floating debt hanging about, and for that reason alone, quite apart from anything else, I welcome this provision for repayment of debt.

Let me take the argument a little further. If you can, by reducing debt and reducing the rate of interest owing to the fact that the ruling value of Government securities has fallen 2 per cent. in interest—that the British Government can borrow money 2 per cent. cheaper than now—if the ruling rate of £100 Government indebtedness is 3 per cent. you have got 2 per cent. on the whole off something like £8,000,000,000 of money. I do not say £160,000,000 a year will be saved. I put it lower, so as not to overstate my case, and I will say £130,000,000. That is, an annuity of £130,000,000 less debt charge will therefore be necessary to be raised in the form of taxation, and you at once by doing that pull down your Income Tax by 2s. 6d. in the £ But you have done another thing, which I will put to the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden), whom I see sitting opposite and who advocates a capital levy. He hopes by a capital levy to cancel, but not repay, £3,000,000,000 of debt. If you wipe out interest amounting to £140,000,000 annually and capitalise that, see what it means I looked at the paper this morning, and I saw that the market value of £100 Consols is roughly £60, and if you pay in the open market £60 to-day you will get the right to receive almost in perpetuity £2 10s. a year. That is to say. for every £24 capital you pay, you get £1 as an annuity or interest. If you have reduced the interest liability, or annuity, on your general capital total of National Debt, by £140,000,000 a year, the capitalised value of that £140,000,000 annuity, capitalised on the same basis, of £24 capital representing £1 interest, is worth something like £3,500,000,000 dead weight of debt, and you have at one fell swoop without a capital levy and by honest means wiped out £3,500,000,000 of the debt. That must not be overlooked, and you have done it without upsetting anything or anybody. I will not go into the merits of a capital levy, but, merits or demerits——

No, Sir. I say that this reduction of a capitalisation of £3,500,000,000 dead-weight Debt by means of a Sinking Fund bringing a lower interest charge for annuities will have effected, without causing any disturbance to the country, the very thing which the hon. Members opposite wish to arrive at by a Debt cancellation, not Debt repayment, remember, called a capital levy. There is another side to the whole question. I think that by constantly enhancing the capital market value of Government stocks or, in other words, bringing down the yield of interest on Government stocks and loans, that dominates the cost of interest upon everything in this country. You pull down the value of money which we have to borrow for our manufacturers with which to buy material and to employ labour. You make money cheap for us. That allows us to put up factories. We can get money in the market in abundance to venture in enterprises in manufacturing. We can call upon our bankers to find us money to buy more material, and go ahead with reduced cost of overhead charges and, therefore, cheaper goods to offer foreign buyers in competitive markets; but there is another thing, which I have pointed out on an earlier occasion. The effect of repaying Debt here in the form of Sinking Fund, by pulling down the price of money, renders it possible for every person who is in credit, any foreign Government to come over here and say, We have good security to offer and we would rather come to London again than go to New York, because you can lend us money at a cheaper rate than we can borrow it elsewhere. I hope hon. Members opposite will take note of this, that we have made our export trade on cheap money lent to our Colonies and to foreigners. We have lent money to the great railways of North America, we have lent money to the great railways of South America. We have lent money to develop the raw materials of the world, because they could borrow it more cheaply here than they could borrow it elsewhere. It has cheapened our people's food by stimulating its production. We have lent money to every nation in the world for that reasion, and the result has been that they have not always taken it out in the form of gold or notes or money values for the loans. In many cases they have taken it in the form of goods, and every investment we make abroad, owing to the fact that we can lend money more cheaply than other people, has brought trade to us and thus helped us and our working people with work and cheaper food. The whole of our export trade is due to the fact that we have lent money abroad. It is said that nations which borrow money here do not take it out in goods, and it has been sought to impose upon those nations the obligation to take whatever they may borrow from us in the form of goods. I do not believe that is entirely necessary. It might possibly be a very good thing, but I think there are dangers inherent in any such proposal. People must realise that there is such a thing as triangular exchange. A mystical agent. You can put into a man's arm a certain serum, but you do not know how it works, but it has a certain therapeutic effect. So with triangular exchange. If you lend money here in England to a foreign Government or railway or firm, it is not necessary for us to know what immediately happens, or whether our goods go out directly to represent that money. If they do not go out to the country which borrows the money, by the effects of triangular exchange that money which we lent to a foreign country does go out, sooner or later, somewhither, directly or indirectly, in the form of the product of our working people, by means of three-cornered or five-cornered exchange. That must not be lost sight of, and for that reason alone I, as a manufacturer, am willing to let my Income Tax remain high for a while and suffer out of my own pocket, in order to see prudent amounts as laid down by the Prime Minister put to the Sinking Fund, for I believe that in the long run this payment will have three very beneficial effects: first by bringing down the value of money against the Government and against traders, second by attracting our Dominions and foreigners to borrow money from us and so to take our goods, third by pulling down the price of money in the form of interest on our loans and so reducing taxation for Debt charges. Then again it relieves us of the nightmare of the difficulties surrounding the large amount of Debt repayment of 5 per cent. War Stock and other shorter loans which must take place in seven or eight years, and by effecting a cheaper level of interest rates helps us to convert to lower cost for interest or repayment, and for these reasons I am entirely in agreement with the proposal of the Treasury Bench that we should find a large sum of money for the next few years for the purpose of Debt redemption. Repayment of Debt, if not carried out too quickly, can result in nothing but benefit to us all.

I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. A. M. Samuel) except in one respect, and that is in regard to Treasury Bills. I quite agree that we have a large amount of Treasury Bills at the present time, but in the present conditions we are borrowing extremely cheaply by Treasury Bills, that is, about 2 per cent., and if that money were transferred into permanent loans, undoubtedly we should have to pay perhaps 1½ per cent. or 2 per cent. more on the amount of interest per annum. I do not think that even in three or four years' time it would be possible to make a saving of £140,000,000, as suggested by the hon. Member for Farnham, in the interest on the Government Debts. Supposing the £2,000,000,000 of 5 per cent. War Loan were transferred into 3½ per cent. War Loan—and I should like to draw the Government's special attention to this—if that stock is under 90, I think, as far as I remember, the conditions are that the Government have to buy for redemption 1 per cent. per half-year on the amount of issues. In making these definite arrangements, one has to be careful in looking to the future with regard to a possible exchange of Government investments in that respect. Your Sinking Fund might come to more than that. To take another form of Debt, you might wish to pay off some of your American Debt, because your dollars decreased in price compared with the pound sterling, and I think we want to have more leave in paying off possibly more than £40,000,000, or £45,000,000. or £50,000,000 a year, in case it was advantageous to the nation to take advantage of the extra amount in paying off the Debt.

The hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith) seemed flabbergasted that the Debt should take 150 years to pay off, but it would be a greater disaster to have the Debt paid off in four or five years. It would be a great disaster to the nation and a great disaster to the population in the nation, and especially to the working class. Inflation is bad enough, but when you come to deflation, it is far more difficult and far more injurious to the actual poor population than to the rich. I think deflation ought to be guarded against most carefully, and up till now there is no nation which has worked deflation since the War better than we have. It must be remembered that 100 years ago Pitt introduced more or less the same sort of Sinking Fund, and that was continued by the Prime Minister 100 years ago in fixing the Sinking Fund at £5,000,000, which in those days was a large amount. I sincerely hope we shall be able to continue regularly meeting this Sinking Fund. I agree with the right hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young) that possibly it is a bit dangerous making any definite arrangements three years ahead, but the absolute foundation of British credit requires that we should have a Sinking Fund and that we should pay off as much as we can annually by that Sinking Fund.

It seems to me that there are two questions arising on this Resolution: first of all, as to the position of the Sinking Fund in the present year, and, secondly, as to making permanent provision for the future on the basis of this year. I do not propose to enter at any length into the general considerations which have been debated in various quarters of the House, but it is worth noting that my right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young) is this afternoon the only financial authority in the House who questions the advisability of making a provision for the Sinking Fund in the present year. It will be within the recollection of the Committee that when the Prime Minister, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, introduced the Budget, not only on this side of the House, but also on the other side, there was an attack upon the Sinking Fund provision. There seemed to be at that time a reconstitution of the old Coalition, at least in part, because not only my right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, but the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) and the right hon. Member for Colchester (Sir L. Worthington-Evans), who is now a Member of the Government, also joined in that attack, and when I saw that the right hon. Member for Colchester had joined the Government, I was afraid that the Government were weakening in the matter. It is, therefore, a matter of gratification, I believe, to the Committee that, in spite of the right hon. Gentleman's joining the Government, the Government adhere to their financial purity, or at least to the standard of financial purity which they had set up before his accession to their ranks. Apparently, the right hon. Member for Hillhead has deserted likewise, because he is absent. In these circumstances, I would commend this piece of advice to my right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, that, as all his allies have deserted, he himself should abandon this piece of unsound doctrine and on this matter find himself in agreement with the rest of the Liberal party.

5.0 P.M.

The only question that arises, to my mind, is whether the provision for Sinking Fund which is made this year should be the standard for the future. Undoubtedly, the present year is a bad year for the purpose of repayment of Debt, because we are suffering from a trade depression. It is true that that depression is not so great as existed a year ago, but still it is severe. It is much greater than any depression we had immediatedly before the War, and undoubtedly there is force in the argument that when trade is depressed the country is not in a position to make such a contribution towards Debt repayment as when trade is sound. That seems to be an argument against making the provision which the Government regard as adequate in the present year the standard for future repayment. It is on that ground that I criticise the Resolution. The Government are deciding to make payments on the basis of £40,000,000 in the present year; it adds £5,000,000 in the next year; and then it makes a permanent standard of an additional £5,000,000. I would recall to the Committee that on the previous Debate the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) suggested—I think he put it very strongly—that this would be an inadequate provision when the country returned to normal industrial and commercial conditions, and he held up the standard which existed in pre-War days. At that time something between 1 per cent. and l¼ per cent. was provided for the repayment of Debt, and that affected every good and bad year. Nineteen hundred and nine was a very bad year, but even in 1909 when there were considerable financial difficulties, the provision made for the repayment of Debt exceeded 1 per cent.

It was before the final reduction was made, and it was l½ per cent. That strengthens my contention, which is that we should look to a higher standard of repayment for the future. We should look to something between £70,000,000 and £85,000,000, rather than to the figure of £50,000,000, mentioned in this Resolution, as a permanent standard for normal years succeeding the third year from now. This was the standard which, in the earlier years of the last Parliament, the late Government itself had in view. My recollection is that there was a con siderable financial Debate, in October, 1919. In the course of the discussion then, in which my right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich took part as a critic of the Government, he rather criticized them in regard to the adequacy of the repayment, but the Government took great credit to themselves for the fact that they were going to establish a repayment on the basis of 1 per cent. Surely, if that were the standard which they suggested then, it should be the standard——

If the hon. Gentleman is elaborating that argument, will he address himself to this aspect of the case: If we pay off debt at a rate which might be called too quick, shall we not deflate too quickly, and throw men out of work?

I will very willingly enter into that consideration. The hon. Member for Farnham might argue that in relation to a capital levy, but I do not think that the difference between £50,000,000 and £70,000,000 is going to have anything of that effect. Further- more, the increase to £70,000,000 would have a very considerable influence in the direction which the hon. Member regards as desirable, namely, that the Government should be in a strong position in 1929. I think I am really strengthening the argument which the hon. Member for Farnham himself put before the Committee in his speech. Instead of questioning the wisdom of my argument, I regret very much that he does not welcome me as an ally in support of his own contention. I leave it at that, and I hope he will regard me rather as an ally than as an adversary. The Government should bear in mind, first of all, that this is a bad year for the purposes of repayment; and that, if they assert that £40,000,000 is the maximum we can pay this year, the maximum of a bad year should not be made the standard of normal years, when the country has recovered its customary prosperity. I think that is the line which most sound economists—and they will take the Liberal point of view—will be disposed to advocate in this Debate.

I only want to say two or three words on this matter, on which I have very strong opinions. I rejoice very much, having listened to the Debate which has gone on, to find that there is practically an unanimous opinion in the matter that the Government have been wise in devoting so large a sum to the induction of Debt. The arguments for reducing taxation are both specious and Popular. They find much support from those—when I say "those," I suppose it is the great bulk of the community—who are suffering very heavily under the burden of direct and indirect taxation, but you must take long views. I listened to the very able speech of the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. A. M. Samuel), who presented the case in a most admirable, logical, and very practical spirit. I believe that in the long run you will best facilitate the reduction of the burden of taxation by devoting at least as large a sum as you propose to do this year to the repayment of Debt. Let me say, incidentally, that I think the policy the Treasury have pursued in this matter is the right policy, not only on the general principle, but in regard to the method they have adopted, and it has been vindicated by the result. I do not think it is more than three years since our Float- ing Debt amounted to something like £1,300,000,000; to-day, I suppose, it is about £700,000,000.

Between £700,000,000 and £800,000,000.

That, I think, is a wholly satisfactory result, and I am not moved myself by the almost nervous apprehension of some great authorities, who fear that this process of so-called deflation will go too far. That does not move me at all. I think the Treasury have pursued a wise policy, and I hope they are not going to be deterred from it. What I really rose to say was that I think it is extremely doubtful, and even more than doubtful, that the House should be asked to commit itself, by this Resolution, to the rate at which reductions should take place in subsequent years. Here I am in entire agreement with my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle). We have got here, this year, the sum of £40,000,000, £45,000,000 in the following year, and £50,000,000 in the year after. In the first place, this is a perfectly nugatory provision because, as everybody knows, the House of Commons next year may take a totally different view of the situation; and it is quite idle to suppose that you can bind future Parliaments by a scale of this kind. It is a mere pious opinion, and nothing more. Further, I rather deprecate the manner in which the Resolution is framed, because it seems to indicate, as far as we can at present foresee, that that is the limit of the obligation to be laid on Parliament in the future in the way of reduction of debt. I do not think it is. As my hon. Friend has pointed out, in the years before the War, when I, and other colleagues of mine, were responsible for the finances of the country, I suppose our total Debt was about £700,000,000. We reduced it steadily, at the rate of nearly £10,000,000 a year, without any fettering obligations of that sort. We reduced it, and we resisted the temptations to make further remissions of taxation and (which was greater still) to make larger provisions for social reform.

I think, in view of that, when we get back, as we all hope we shall, to more or less normal conditions, that the provisions suggested in this Resolution for subsequent years will be found to be substantially less than the country can reasonably afford. I do not know why those two paragraphs have been inserted in the Resolution at all. I think that, for the present year, £40,000,000 is probably adequate: at any rate, I am content to take it, but I demur to its being suggested that in the years 1925 and 1926 our provision for this purpose should be limited in advance—it cannot be limited in deed—by an expression of opinion on the part of this House of Commons as to the amount of the sum to be paid per annum. I think the Resolution will be very much improved if these two sums were omitted. I am not going to vote against it, and I only rose to say, first, that I am certain that in large and progressive reduction of capital Debt lies the best hope of the future financial rehabilitation of this country, and in that I include the possibility of the remission of taxation. Secondly, I think it is not desirable that we should in any way give the impression to the world that our efforts in that direction are to be limited in the two years that are to come in the manner in which they are restricted in this Resolution.

I am pleased that the first remarks I should have to make in my new office from this Box should be to express my entire concurrence with the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), and I have nothing to add but to say, "Ditto to Mr. Burke." There is really very little for the Treasury to answer, except in the speech of the right hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. H. Young). It is quite true, as the right hon. Member for Paisley has said, that the last two Clauses of the Resolution might have been omitted, and that it might have limited the sum of £40,000,000 to this year only. The object of the Government, in putting in these second and third Clauses, was to declare, not that those sums were the maximum, but that, in the opinion of the House of Commons at the present time, they should be the minimum for Debt repayment next year and the following year. It is quite true it will be open to the House next year, and the year after, to increase that sum, but it cannot decrease that sum without having before it the distinct, statement of this House that it thought the sums should be £40,000,000 this year, £45,000,000 next year, and £50,000,000 in the following year. It is, in effect, a declaratory statement that in the view of the House to-day, which cannot bind a succeeding House, it is desirable that we should, even in a time when we are to some extent in financial difficulty, lay down the line that we intend to reduce Debt in an increasing ratio, so far as we possibly can. With that I entirely agree.

I do not propose to deal with the speech of the right hon. Member for Norwich, which has been fully answered by every speaker in the House, but there is one question he put which I think I ought to answer. That is in regard to the part of the Resolution which has been dropped out. That part of the Resolution dealt solely with Clause 21 of the Bill. Clause 21, which hon. Members will see is also in italics, is a Clause enabling the Treasury to refund half the interest payable on the American Debt during the current year. The part of the Resolution we have removed is that part which enabled us to carry Clause 21. We now find it is not necessary to carry that Clause. The payment on the American Debt will be made in accordance with the terms made, and there is no need to fund at all this year. Consequently, Clause 21 has dropped out of the Bill and that portion of the Resolution relating to Clause 21 has also been removed.

No, there is power throughout the terms of the American settlement to fund one-half of the interest over a certain number of years. We do not want to do it now, and I do not propose to take power to do so, but if it becomes necessary to take that power in any future year we shall then come to the House of Commons for that power. That being so, I hope the

Committee will be willing to pass the Resolution and to get on to that part of the Bill which I know hon. Members opposite desire to discuss.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman this question? We are not now going to be asked to pass Clause 21. At any rate, that Clause gave an opportunity of discussing the question of the Debt settlement, which is of great importance. I do not think we have previously had an opportunity for such a discussion, except a general Debate on the Budget statement and that sort of thing. I do not know what you, Mr. Hope, will think of this matter, whether when we move to leave out Clause 21 that will give an opportunity for such a discussion——

I quite agree, Mr. Hope, nor did I propose to attempt such a discussion now. I was only asking whether the Government will see that there is some opportunity of discussing this very vital question at an early date.

Although I do not desire to check the flow of the hon. Member's eloquence, I would ask him to look at Clause 21 and he will find that there is no scope there for a general discussion on the American Debt. The Clause only deals with the funding of a certain amount of interest over the next five years. If the hon. and gallant Member is desirous of discussing the American Debt I think he will have to apply to the Prime Minister or the Chief Whip in order to find time for his eloquence.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 252; Noes, 119.

Division No. 193.]

AYES

[5.20 p.m.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Banks, Mitchell

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

Brass, Captain W.

Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James

Barnston, Major Harry

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Becker, Harry

Brittain, Sir Harry

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Brown, J. w. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)

Bruford, R.

Astor, Viscountess

Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

Berkeley, Captain Reginald

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Blundell, F. N.

Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Bonwick, A.

Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

Butcher, Sir John George

Harvey, Major S. E.

Pennefather, De Fonbianque

Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

Hawke, John Anthony

Penny, Frederick George

Butt, Sir Alfred

Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Button, H. S.

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Perring, William George

Cautley, Henry Strother

Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

Philipson, Mabel

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Hewett, Sir J. P.

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Privett, F. J.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Rankin, Captain James Stuart

Chapple, W. A.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

Clarke, Sir E. C.

Hood, Sir Joseph

Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Hopkins. John W. W.

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Ciarry, Reginald George

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Remer, J. R.

Clayton, G. C.

Houfton, John Plowright

Remnant, Sir James

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

Rentoul, G. S.

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Reynolds, W. G. W.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Hudson, Capt. A.

Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Hughes, Collingwood

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Cope, Major William

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

Hurd, Percy A.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall)

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley

Robertson-Despencer, Major(Isl'gt'nW)

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North)

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

Curzon, Captain Viscount

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Darbishire, C. W.

Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor)

Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemal Hempstead)

Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

Sandon, Lord

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)

Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Doyle, N. Grattan

Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

Shepperson, E. W.

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A.

Edmonds, G.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Skelton, A. N.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Lamb, J. Q.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Ednam, Viscount

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

Ellis, R. G.

Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

Steel, Major S. Strang

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

Lorden, John William

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

Eyres-Monseil, Com. Bolton M.

Lorimer, H. D.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Fawkes, Major F. H.

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

Foot, Isaac

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Malene, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Thornton, M.

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Manville, Edward

Titchfield, Marquess of

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Margesson, H. D. R.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Frece, Sir Waiter de

Martin, A. E. (Essex. Romford)

Tubbs. S. W.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Furness, G. J.

Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Mercer, Colonel H.

Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

Ganzonl, Sir John

Milne. J. S. Wardlaw

Wells, S. R.

Garland, C. S.

Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Molson, Major John Elsdale

Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

Goff. Sir R. Park

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Gould, James C.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Winterton Earl

Greaves-Lord, Walter

Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

Wintringham, Margaret

Greene. Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Murchison, C. K.

Wise, Frederick

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Wood, Rt. Hn. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Gretton, Colonel John

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Hall, Rr-Admi Sir W. (Llv'p'l, W. D'by)

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Halstead, Major D.

Nield, Sir Herbert

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Yerburgh, R. D. T.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Paget, T. G.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Parker, Owen (Kettering)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.

Harrison, F. C.

Pease, William Edwin

NOES.

Adams, D.

Brotherton, J.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Buckle, J.

Duffy. T. Gavan

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Burgess, S.

Dunnico, H.

Attlee, C. R.

Buxton. Noel (Norfolk, North)

Ede, James Chuter

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Cape, Thomas

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Barnes, A.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Batey, Joseph

Collie, Sir John

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Briant, Frank

Collins, Pat (Walsall)

Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

Broad, F. A.

Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Kirkwood, D.

Royce, William Stapleton

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Lansbury, George

Saklatvala, S.

Greenall, T.

Leach, W.

Salter, Dr. A.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Lee, F.

Scrymgeour, E.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

Groves, T.

Lowth, T.

Shinwell, Emanuel

Grundy, T. W.

Lunn, William

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Guthrie, Thomas Maule

M'Entee, V. L.

Sitch, Charles H.

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

McLaren, Andrew

Smith, T. (Pontefract)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Snell, Harry

Hardie, George D.

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Snowden, Philip

Harris, Percy A.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Stephen, Campbell

Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

March, S.

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

Maxton, James

Sturrock, J. Leng

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Middleton, G.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Hill, A.

Morel, E. D.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Hillary, A. E.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Hinds, John

Mosley, Oswald

Trevelyan, C. P.

Hirst, G. H.

Muir, John W.

Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Hogge, James Myles

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

Nichol, Robert

Welsh, J. C.

Irving, Dan

O'Connor, Thomas P.

Whiteley, W.

Jarrett, G. W. S.

O'Grady, Captain James

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Oliver, George Harold

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Paling, W.

Wright, W.

Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Richards, R.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (pontypridd)

Riley, Ben

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Mr. Amman and Mr. T. Griffiths.

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Rose, Frank H.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

Finance Bill

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Duty on tea.)

The duty of Customs payable on tea until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, under the Finance Act, 1922, shall, subject to the provisions of Section eight of the Finance Act, 1919 (which relates to Imperial preferential rates), continue to be charged, levied and paid until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-four, on the importation thereof into Great Britain or Northern Ireland, that is to say:

Tea … … the lb., eight pence.

With regard to the first Amendment, standing in the name of the hon. Member for South East Ham (Mr. Barnes)—to leave out the word "until" and to insert instead thereof the words "shall cease and determine as from"—this Amendment and the consequential or similar Amendments which follow it practically amount to a negative of the Clause, and are, therefore, not in order. With regard to the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Bonwick)—to leave out the words "subject to the provisions of Section eight of the Finance Act, 1919 (which relates to Imperial preferential rates)"—this Amendment, strictly speaking, is not in order, as it would increase the charge, but following recent precedents, in order to obtain a discussion on Colonial Preference, I will allow the hon. Member to move it conditionally. I would, therefore, ask him whether, if he is successful, he will undertake to move to reduce the whole duty to the figure now payable on Colonial tea. In this way a Debate on Imperial Preference would be possible, but this must not be repeated on other Clauses. I understand the hon. Member will be willing to give that assurance?

Is it understood that the Committee will be allowed to deal with the application of preference to other commodities?

I beg to move to leave out the words echo of many speeches made by my hon. Friends who sit below me when they tried to minimise the seriousness of that concession. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham however made no secret of what he was doing, because he said that the day which had been so long foreseen by his distinguished father had dawned at last, and with a filial devotion which we so much admire, he laid his offering on the paternal shrine, and these are his words:

I would also like to know, if there has been any lowering in the price of those commodities? Has the reduction in duty had any effect on the price paid by the British consumer, or is it a fact that the State is losing not only more than £3,000,000 of revenue, but the consumer is also paying substantially the same price as before this preference was introduced. If my surmise is correct then it appears to me that the British consumer as a taxpayer is losing twice over. He has to make up the loss which has occurred owing to the reduction caused by this Preference, and at the same time he has also to pay the same price for his commodities, because he does not get them any cheaper in spite of these preferential duties. I think we are also entitled to ask, if the producer in the Dominions has benefited by this Preference? Have these preferential taxes cemented our relationships with the Dominions, and, if so, in what way?

It seems to me that the Dominions do not want any preference at the expense of the people of Great Britain. I believe the Dominions want freedom; they want freedom to frame their own fiscal policy, and surely they are willing for us to have the same amount of freedom. I remember being in Ottawa at the outbreak of the War in 1914, and I had many long chats with that great Canadian statesman, Sir Wilfred Laurier, and seeing the amount of enthusiasm with which Canada came to the side of the Mother country, I asked Sir Wilfred Laurier if they had come to the side of the Mother country because of any promise given about Imperial Preference, and he replied that the reason Canada had come to the aid of the Mother country was because Canada had been given complete freedom. It seems that freedom, like the quality of mercy,

If there be no better arguments against Imperial Preference than those which have been put forward by the hon. Member who has just sat down, I am afraid that he is basing his case on very poor grounds. The hon. Member has put a number of questions to the Minister in charge of this Bill, but he has not given one single case where any disadvantage has arisen with regard to the preference which has come into force under these proposals. I think we can only cement our Empire not only by the maintenance of Imperial Preference which is in existence, but we want a very wide extension of that particular form of Preference. Unless we have a business association with our Empire of a very wide nature we shall sooner or later be in the position in which they will want to separate themselves from our country and our Empire. I believe that hon. Members opposite have gone mad on this question of Free Trade. When we come to examine what has happened as a direct result of the particular Imperial Preference given in 1919, we find that in Canada, in Australia, in South Africa very considerable modifications have actually taken place to the great advantage of trade and employment in this country.

To give an example we find that a well-known American motor car which prior to Imperial Preference was of American manufacture, is now entirely being made in Canada, and is finding employment for Canadian workmen, and therefore this is a considerable advantage to our Dominion. This kind of thing helps to cement our Empire and keep it together. When I listened to the speech in which it was stated that we must leave our Empire to frame its own fiscal policy as it pleases, and not try to influence them in any way, I would like to ask the hon. Member to go to Lancashire and to argue that India should raise the tariffs which she has put on against cotton goods to our disadvantage.

I do not think the hon. Member can seriously argue in that way. The fiscal question, so far as the duties on cotton are concerned, were imposed before the War long before Imperial Preference was given to tea. Therefore there is no connection between the two things. I think we should try by every means within our power to secure not merely Imperial Preference, because I believe we need something much bigger; we need something that will lead to absolute Free Trade within the Empire. I could not understand the hon. Member opposite when he began to quote Shakespeare. He told us that this freedom blesses him that gives and him that takes. The hon. Member does not bless them, but on the contrary he has done everything he can to curse them.

The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has made the astonishing statement that certain parts of the Empire will separate from the United Kingdom unless these Preferences are kept on.

I never said anything of the kind. What I said was that sooner or later that would become an issue.

I am reinforced by hon. Members near me as to my version of what the hon. Member said. He now says that "sooner or later" it will become an issue. Does he assert that the Empire depends on this duty which has been placed on motor cars? Does he mean that the Government will lose the support of Canada, New Zealand, Australia and India if we do not grant them preferential duties? That is a ridiculous statement to make, and I am astonished to see a right hon. Gentleman opposite who has held high office in one of our Colonies venturing to support such an insult. It is an insult to say that they are going to be bribed to remain in the Empire by a 33⅓ per cent. duty on motor cars. There is very little evidence to show that these preferential duties have helped our Empire trade at all. We are told that the West Indies are on the verge of ruin because of the falling off in their sugar trade to this country. The fact that there is a Preference on sugar coming from the West Indies does not seem to help them very much. Is it now proposed to subsidise the West Indies? Is that the proposal? The junior Member for Norwich (Mr. G. Roberts) has been busying himself in trying to develop sugar production in this country. Furthermore we are remitting the duty on this artificially produced British sugar, and is not that directly against the Imperial Preference policy which I understand the hon. Member is now supporting? India has been mentioned and reference was made to the effect upon Lancashire of the taxes put on there. But we know that Lancashire trade is not injured by these taxes and Lancashire manufacturers are not very much alarmed about them. The Indian taxes may keep out the cheaper produc- tions of the Lancashire mills, but what we lose on the swings we shall gain on the roundabouts, and our trade in the finer fabrics will develop, so that, in the long run, we shall suffer no loss. The Imperial Preference on Indian tea, in 1919, may have benefited Mincing Lane, but I do not think the Indian producer gained very much, for it has not had the effect which it was anticipated it would have.

We have now a comparatively new Government. It has held office for six months. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury is in charge of its first Budget, and I extend to him my most friendly support in any concessions he may make. I hope I may have many occasions for giving him that support later on. He used to sit on this side of the House, and I remember him as a very brilliant opponent in the latter part of the last Parliament of the late Coalition Government. He and I agreed thoroughly in our oppositions to that Government. He will remember how it was that these Preferential Duties were introduced. They were introduced as a sop to the Tariff Reformers. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) found himself in the position of having a clear Conservative majority over all other parties, and it was necessary, therefore, for him to placate, or buy over, or even temporarily satisfy the ardent Tariff Reformers of the Conservative party. That was one of the reasons why this Imperial Preference was given. There was, too, a strong sentimental appeal from the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain) and his immediate following. We have, however, travelled a great way since those days. The present Government; does not need to hold out any concessions of this kind. It has Parliament well in hand because of the terror occasioned by the hon. Members above the Gangway on this side of the House.

These remarks savour rather of Imperial politics than of Imperial Preference.

I wish to put it that this Government now have a free hand in this matter, and seeing that these Imperial preference duties have proved disappointing, I suggest that they would be well advised to drop them. Let me give my reasons for that. In all international conferences regarding the economic reconstruction of Europe our delegates have been forced by practical considerations to endorse resolutions passed at Genoa, Brussels and other places, in which it is urged that the great need of Europe to-day, or rather one of the great needs of Europe for its economic commercial recovery, is the non-imposition of preferential tariffs against this or any other country. That was strongly endorsed by our representatives at Genoa who included the present President of the Board of Trade. What the Government advocated at international conferences it should give effect to here, and they should embody the recommendations of conference in the Budget which they are passing through this House. It is because Imperial preference differentiates between the fiscal position of one country and another, and because it has been used as an argument by the smaller States of Europe who are strangling themselves and injuring their neighbours by the imposition of ridiculous tariffs, that I say the Government have the strongest reason for dropping these preferential tariffs. As for talking about their menace to the Empire, that is an affront to our Dominions as well as an insult to the intelligence of this House.

I would like to suggest that when we are discussing this question we should discuss it from the point of view of the considerations and feelings of the British Empire as a whole. The hon. Member who opened this Debate spoke as if this were a matter which really created no interest in our Dominions. He told us that, after the outbreak of War, he asked Sir Wilfrid Laurier if it were a question such as this of preferential tariffs which brought Canada into the War. The House will agree that that was a strange question to put at that time. It should be remembered too that Sir Wilfrid Laurier has for many years been responsible for keeping considerable tariffs against this country, but he was never opposed to reciprocity within the Empire although he had a strong desire to extend the preference to the United States of America. The hon. Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) suggested that Preference had done no good. He said, "What a mockery to suggest that this kind of thing binds the Empire together." But does he realise that for very many years the Dominions have given a very substantial preference to this country? When he asks what has it done for this country, may I not point to the case of the Australian people—who have made a sacrifice of revenue amounting to something like £7,000,000 per annum? When it is asked what has been the result on our trade, I can only submit that it must have been a very great advantage, inasmuch as we find that Australia, with a population of 5,000,000 people, bought more from this country last year than any other country had ever bought in the history of British trade, and more than the German Empire with its 70,000,000 of population ever purchased from this country. When it comes to the amount of purchases per head I think it will be found that the Australians bought at the rate of something like £10 a head and New Zealand at over £12 per head. The total purchase of manufactured goods and articles which give occupation to the people of this country amounted in the case of Australia to £60,000,000, and although the hon. Member opposite claims that the United States of America, with a population of 104,000,000, bought more than Australia with its 5,000,000 of population last year, I would suggest to him that that comparison does not lead us anywhere. The fact remains that Australia bought more than any other European country and more than the German Empire had ever purchased in its most prosperous days. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there has been an enormous increase of Australian trade since preference was granted?

I cannot understand why hon. Members on the benches opposite are always trying to run down the Preference given to our Dominions. If hon. Members will only read the comments in the Empire Press a little more carefully they will realise that, however small the result compared with revenue sacrificed by our Dominions, throughout the whole Empire this policy has been regarded in the most friendly manner. When it is said that we should abandon the policy, I think the hon. Member for Central Hull, who made that suggestion, could not be aware of the very striking speech delivered by the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth of Australia the other day in which he stated that 17 countries had come to Australia to ask her to make a reciprocity agreement with them in the matter of trade, and, rightly or wrongly, Australia had held her hand in the hope that we were going to continue and to extend our policy with her. It is, under these circumstances, really remarkable that anyone should suggest that these are things which do not affect our Dominions. I believe we have taken a great step forward in this matter, and I am at a loss to understand why any member of the Liberal party should oppose the policy, bearing in mind the fact that in these cases we are now discussing there was a reduction of duties which, while they could not have done any harm to consumers, gave a great amount of satisfaction throughout the whole Dominions of the Empire.

I am opposed to this Preference, firstly, because I consider that it introduced unnecessary restrictions on trade, and, secondly, because the consumer always pays.

We have an illustration of that in the concession of 4s. 3d. per cwt. on Empire-grown sugar, and yet there is no difference in the price of the sugar when it is purchased, despite that concession. Without a doubt, the whole of that concession goes into the pocket of the Imperial grower, or, at any rate, between the grower, the wholesaler and the importer; the 4s. 3d. is gone before it reaches the consumer. That applies to all preferences of this description on foodstuffs. As far as the preference of 2d. per 1b. on tea is concerned, there has been no argument at all that could possibly defend it, because, prior to the reduction of 2d. per lb., the Indian market already had the overwhelming control of the British tea consumption. In 1919, the year when this concession was given, the home consumption of tea amounted to 388½ million pounds weight, and, of that quantity, 365 million pounds was Indian and Ceylon tea and only 23½ million pounds tea coming from other sources. In a case in which the Colonies had already secured more or less complete control of the home market, I submit that there was no reason or argu- ment that could defend the imposition of a Preference Duty of 2d. as far as tea was concerned. It represented, therefore, as far as the revenue of the country was concerned, a concession of 2d. per lb. on 90 per cent. of the tea imported into this country, and it, therefore, could not be argued that the preference was given from the point of view of improving and stimulating the Indian tea trade. The tea trade here at home do not require that preference, and are practically unanimously opposed to it; nor did the Indian tea growers require it, because the net effect of the operation of the Duty has been to worsen competition in foreign markets for the Indian tea grower, and, while it has prevented the consumers in this country from having an alternative supply of tea from other sources, it has not given any real advantage to the Indian tea grower in the American or other foreign markets.

There is another point, and I should like the Minister to indicate whether it is having the attention of his Department. The Irish Free State have now their own control over their Customs Duties. Does not that introduce a new complication in connection with the Preference on tea? At the moment, I believe, Ireland consumes between 40 and 50 million pounds of tea a year, and the practice has been hitherto that 90 or 95 per cent. of the Irish consumption of tea has been passed through to Ireland from1 British sources. That means that in this country quite a considerable commercial and business organisation exists for the purpose of supplying the Irish tea market. What will be the position if the Irish Free State does not continue this preference of one-sixth of the Tea Duty? I suggest that it may have the same effect on our trade with Ireland as developed some 15 or 20 years ago in our trade with America. If Ireland departs from this policy of Preference, and has different preferential duties from this country, it is likely to be a direct inducement to the Java, Sumatra and China tea-growing interests, many of them financed by British capital, to develop and encourage and stimulate a direct supply of their teas to Ireland; and, if that takes place, it is likely to cause a considerable loss of employment in this country. From these two points of view—firstly, that when this Preference was given, 90 per cent. of the tea imports of this country came from India and Ceylon, and, secondly, because of the additional complications which it is likely to introduce, in view of the fact that the Irish Free State will now have its own Customs Duties—I would submit that the Financial Secretary should give some attention to this matter. In view of the fact that this Preference is not giving any advantage to the Indian grower, that it is unanimously opposed by the British tea trade, and that it gives no advantage to the consumer, while it will now lead to additional complications, I think it should be abolished.

The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) said that we could not give any instance in which Preference bad injured trade. An indication of the complications which Preference introduces into trade is furnished by the reduction of 4d. which was given last year on the Tea Duty. The reduction was calculated on the basis duty to foreign growers, namely. 1s. per pound, and the concession was ostensibly 4d. per pound, but the reduction of 4d. was taken off the 1s. duty, with the result that, as the preference is one-sixth of the duty chargeable on foreign teas, the concession to Colonial tea-growers only amounted to 3⅓d. What happened in the case of holders of stocks of Indian and Ceylon tea? The Chancellor of the Exchequer at that period created a situation in which, ostensibly, the reduction was 4d. per pound, and yet every holder of stocks of Indian and Ceylon tea in this country lost two-thirds of 1d. on every pound of tea that he had in stock at that period. That represented a very heavy loss to holders of such stocks in this country, and it is an indication of the complications that preferences of this sort introduce into business in the ordinary way. Again, in the case of the sugar preference of 4s. 3d. per cwt., the whole of that goes into the pockets of the growers, the refiners, and the wholesalers, and, therefore, it hurts the consumer. From no point of view does Preference benefit the people of this country.

I was very much interested in the speech made by the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Lieut.-Colonel Croft). No one in this Committee is more competent than he to discuss the subject. I remember that, even at the outbreak of War, he could not be silent upon it. Even when all the rest of us, Free Traders and Protectionists, had agreed that it would be unwise, if not unseemly, to exploit the Colonies in favour of Tariff Reform, the hon. and gallant Member had no scruples at that time——

I do not think I ever made a speech in the first two years of the War.

Oh, yes, many of them. The hon. and gallant Member kept the flag flying, and I am glad to hear that even on this occasion he has not forgotten his arguments, however weak. The Dominions themselves are never in doubt about the merits of this case. They are not deceived. When they read of Preference being discussed in this House and in this country, they know perfectly well that those who advocate it here advocate it for their own benefit and not for theirs. None of them is deceived. In the Dominions I have never heard a speaker express any doubt whatever that Preference was advocated in Britain by Britishers in British interests, and not in Dominion interests. It is the purest hypocrisy to say that we in Britain advocate Preference in order to bind the Dominions to us. Nothing of the kind. Those who advocate Preference here are those who advocate Protection, that is to say, they advocate Preference in the interests of protective duties. It is impossible, and all the Dominions know it, to give a Preference on meat, or butter, or wool, without first of all putting on taxes on those articles here. You must put a tax upon all that you import into this country in order to give a Preference. Where amongst the Dominions anywhere has anyone heard a representatives of the Dominions say, "Tax your people in order to deny them a foreign supply, in order that you British people may have to pay more for the things that you use, so that you make a concession to the Dominions"? Those who have discussed the subject in the Dominions say, "We put a tax on the things that Britain sends to us, and we do not want to be interfered with, and shall resent it if we are interfered with."

We cannot give them a Preference without first of all putting on a tax here. How can you give a Preference on meat, or butter, or wool, or wheat, otherwise? It is impossible. We cannot give a Preference to them with out first of all taxing these things against all comers. My hon. and gallant Friend knows the Dominions well. Has he ever heard anyone in the Dominions say that Britain ought to tax these things, and tax her own people, in order to tax less the things that come from the Dominions? No Dominion representative ever talks like that. There is no advocacy in the Dominions for Preference, and no one in the Dominions ever says, "If we do not get a Preference it will weaken our loyalty to the Empire, and you cannot depend upon us in the next war." That rubbish is talked here, not in the Dominions. The basis of Dominion loyalty is not commerce at all. If it were, the Dominions would not have come into the Boer War, for there was no Preference then, even on tea or motorcars. Nevertheless, they came into the Boer War, and yet we have hon. Members in the House of Commons and in the country saying that we must have Preference or we cannot depend on the loyalty of the Dominions. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] That is the inference—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—from what was said so recently as ten minutes ago.

No one in the Dominions is in any doubt as to what is the basis of Dominion loyalty. Let me mention one or two of the things that we have done for the Dominions. Britain has a right to their loyalty even in war. In the first place, we gave them freedom of government, which they very greatly prize; and, more than that, we gave them non-interference by this country in their domestic affairs—a thing which we learned in the American War of Independence. We impose no taxes and no disabilities whatever upon the Dominions, and they are very grateful for that. Many people in this country would be grateful for the non-interference of Government. We gave them, in addition, cheap and abundant supplies of money. The public till of Britain has always been open to the hands of the Dominions, and they have got into it up to the elbows.

Yes, but we advanced enormous sums of money at a time when the security was in doubt, and when we did not know their value. You can send money out there now and know that you have adequate security, but we advanced money in the early days of Dominion development, when it required more faith than security. We supplied the faith, and also the money. The abundant supplies of money by this country to the Dominions have made the Dominions. Their whole success and development have been dependent, almost without question, upon the free supplies of money that we advanced for their development. And we not only supplied them with money, but also with shipping. What would New Zealand or Australia be without our shipping? We found the shipping, we found the capital for the shipping, and we exploited the markets of the world to their advantage. That is an important thing. But we gave them something even more important, and that is free and open markets. We said, "Bring along anything you produce and it shall have free access to our factories—all the raw materials and all the food." Those open markets were of incalculable benefit to the Dominions. If taxes had been put upon them, there would not have been the free access and there would not have been the trade. We have sent some of the best men to the Dominions that this country ever exported. [HON. MEMBERS: "They sent you !"] I had not that very good example in mind, but I endorse what the hon. Member says. These things are material benefits to the Colonies, which they all recognise, and they do not. want a tin-pot Preference in order to maintain their loyalty. We cannot extend Preference to the Dominions without changing our whole fiscal system, and the Dominions do not ask for it. I think the time has arrived when we should cease to talk about Dominion loyalty being based on Preference or on any concessions of that kind. It is an insult to the Dominions to talk like that, and as they never talk about it, we should not, either. There is a mass of hypocrisy about all this talk about Preference. What is hypocrisy? It is to advocate something upon which you are not sincere, and to pretend that what you advocate is of benefit to the person to whom you advocate it. The hypocrisy lies in this, that if we talk Preference to the Dominions and pretend that we want to give it for their benefit, we are political hypocrites, because those who advocate Preference advocate it for the benefit of our agriculture and our factories, and the claim that it is necessary in order to maintain the loyalty of the Colonies is hypocrisy, and it is time we ceased, because the argument is futile and deceives no one here and does not deceive those in the Dominions, either.

I had no intention of speaking on this subject, but I am bound to say my experience, such as it has been, in the Colonies and Dominions has not been that of my hon. Friend who has just sat down. I do not know how the question of the loyalty of the Dominions came into this controversy at all, and it does not seem to me to be germane to the question whether or not there should be preferential rates in respect of the Customs duties payable on tea. That is not a Dominion matter at all.

If the general question of preferential rates were discussed. I would say of that what I have said with regard to the question of the loyalty of the Dominions. It is hardly germane to this question of the duty on tea, which affects almost entirely the tea industry of Ceylon, and is not a Dominion question at all. The general question of Imperial Preference may or may not give rise to differences of opinion with regard to the Free Trade controversy. I have always maintained myself to be a convinced Free Trader, and I am a convinced Free Trader from my experience in the Colonies and the Dominions. I should like to ask my hon. Friend, with his experience, which must be in may respects similar to mine, whether this particular Preference falls properly within the Free Trade controversy at all, because a duty on tea has been always imposed as long as we have had tariffs at all. The whole question of the development of the Colonies and the payment of interest on the loans we have made to the Colonies is bound up with the question of helping them to develop the industries for which they are suitable. This is very thorny ground to go over, and many great economic issues are bound up in it, but I cannot sit silent, knowing those problems and having seen their very great practical difficulty myself in the Colonies, without at least making an effort to put forward the other point of view. I hope the Committee will continue this Preferential Rate in favour of Colonial grown tea. I very much hope it will be possible to remove the duty on tea altogether. It ought no longer to be regarded, as it was when when the duty was first imposed, as a luxury. It is now a necessity of poor households. But since the reduction and remission of duty in favour of Colonial tea exists, I hope the Committee will think twice before they taken any action which would result in taking it away.

Like many other hon. Members, I had not intended to intervene in a Debate on Colonial Preference. This matter has arisen upon the Tea Duty in an entirely unexpected manner. On the merits of the question the Bill deals with a number of taxes—tea, sugar, dried fruits, and a few oddments of that kind. Surely there is no one who would seriously desire to deprive the Dominions and the Colonies of any benefit their trade with us may derive in those articles by the preference we have given. So far as those duties operate, they tend to reduce the price of the articles from one source of supply, and it is not denied by anyone who has spoken that the duties have been of some benefit to the Dominions and Colonies. The real criticism of these duties is that they do not go far enough. The hon. Member for Dumfries (Dr. Chapple) expanded this into the whole question of Colonial Preference and went so far as to raise the question of the loyalty of the Colonies, All statements and arguments of than kind are entirely irrelevant to the De bate. They are not brought into the question. No one questions the loyalty of the Colonies and Dominions, which has been so remarkably demonstrated in recent years.

He did nothing of the kind. Hon. Members opposite must realise that, apart from loyalty and attachment to the Mother Country, there are other things of value—the extension and expansion of our trade relations and the interchange of raw materials and foodstuffs with our supplies of manufactured articles. If we can develop a great trade of that kind by means of a device such as Colonial Preference, is it not worth our while? Does the hon. Member say he will turn his back upon all proposals of that kind for the sake of the high and dry theory of Free Trade, and do nothing for the Dominions and Colonies and do nothing to obtain supplies for our people here? Of course, he will do nothing of the kind.

If the duty is first of all put on, I do not mind making this concession, that I will lessen it to the Colonies, but I object to putting it on at all. Once you put it on every concession and every extent to which you take it off strengthens my position in regard to Free Trade.

I am grateful to the hon. Member for making that concession for this is a remission of Duties which already exists and the Bill only seeks to continue it. There is nothing else before the Committee. The hon. Member's speech was entirely irrelevant. He was thinking of something other than the present Bill. He denied that the Dominions and Colonies desire it. Is he not aware that they are coming to a Colonial Conference to discuss this very question of Preference? Is he not aware of speeches made by the Prime Minister of Australia claiming that the present Preference is not satisfactory? Australia is giving us a great Preference and we are not making any advance towards them. I protest against speeches of the kind made by the hon. Member in his excitement. He can hardly have been serious. The whole future of our trade relations with the Dominions and Colonies is bound up in this question and if this House sets its face against discussion of it, apart from any question of loyalty or attachment to the Mother Country, the Colonies, for the sake of their own people, will have to seek for trade agreements elsewhere which are denied to them by the obstinacy of any Party or body of Members in this House.

There have been several questions put to me, and I will answer them. The first question was put by the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Bonwick) as to what had been the result of these Preference Duties in the last two years. The first and largest of the duties is the duty on tea. There is clearly a case for the duty on tea which falls within the definition of preference referred to by the hon. Member for Dumfries (Dr. Chapple). For many years past a duty on tea has been part of the general system of taxation in this country. Whether the Tea Duty ought to be reduced is the subject of another Amendment. The existing system is that there should be a duty on tea in order that all sections of the community should pay their share towards the taxation of the country. We give a preference on Imperially produced tea, and that Imperially produced tea is now 90 per cent. of the whole of the imported tea which comes into this country. That is a distinct result of Imperial preference in favour of the tea consumer.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inform us whether it was not 90 per cent. when the preference was given?

No, it was not quite 90 per cent. The Tea Duty was originally 1s.; then Empire tea came down to 10d. The foreign Tea Duty is now 8d., and the Empire Duty is 6–2/3 of a penny. I am surprised at the statement made by the hon. Member for East Ham, South (Mr. Barnes) that the growers of tea do not want this Preference. My information is quite different.

The question I was dealing with was the speech of the hon. Member for Dumfries as to whether there was any benefit to the consumer. I am going to say, quite frankly, that in some cases the benefit is to the consumer, and in some cases the benefit is to the Colonial grower. In this case there was a distinct reduction of practically 2d. a pound on 90 per cent. of the tea consumed in this country. Therefore, through Imperial preference there was a reduction of nearly 2d. on practically all the tea imported into this country at the present time. The hon. Member rather put it that it is a case of putting on a tax. It is nothing of the kind. In this case, the consumer does most undoubtedly benefit in regard to the Tea Duty. With regard to the Cocoa Duty, we get an increased production and a benefit in the Colonies. Since the grant of Preference, the production of Empire cocoa imported into this country has increased from 50 per cent. to 90 per cent. There you get no reduction or, at any rate, only a slight reduction in the duty in this country, but, on the other hand, you get an enormous benefit to the Colonies where cocoa is grown. In regard to coffee the proportion of Empire coffee before the War was 20 per cent., and it increased in 1921–22 to 45 per cent. Last year it fell to 35 per cent. owing to the failure of the crops in East Africa; but there is every reason to believe that the proportion will rise again and that there will be again a distinct benefit to our Imperial and Colonial growers in the additional importation of Colonial coffee over Brazilian or other foreign coffee.

The proportion of Empire sugar has increased from 7 per cent. before the War to 22 per cent. last year. It is quite true that in regard to sugar there has been no reduction in price to the consumer in this country, but we must remember that the Empire is one and whole. Do hon. Members say that while we are not increasing the cost to our consumers here by one fraction of a farthing, we should do nothing to try to improve the condition of things in our great Empire? The growth and improvement of the West Indies has been enormous since the introduction of the preference on sugar.

Whisky smuggling is a very recent introduction. Let me tell hon. Members what the United States have done in regard to sugar. The United States took over Porto Rica and Cuba, and as soon as they took control of those two countries and became responsible for them, they did exactly what we have done in regard to the West Indies, only they did it more thoroughly. They took off all the duties on sugar grown in Porta Rica, and a large proportion of the duties on sugar grown in Cuba and imported into the United States of America. The result of that action has been that the growth of sugar in Porta Rica has increased several hundreds per cent. during the last few years. Hon. Members who object to Preference Duties may say that America is a very foolish country. That is not the view of America, and it is not the view that I take. The desire of America was to do some good to Porto Rica and Cuba, and we desire to do some good to our West Indian Colonies. In both cases America and this country has succeeded.

Has the sugar crop in the West Indies increased since the Preferential Duties were put on, or has it decreased?

Certainly, the importation into this country has increased. The hon. Member need not think that I will shirk any issue in any Debate. Hon. Members opposite would hardly like me to refer to any increase in the importation of Empire rum, although that has been of some small benefit to the West Indies. Then we have the importation of Australian wine. Australia wants that Preference. She asked for that Preference. It does no harm whatever here. There are no wine growers here. While it does no harm here, it gives an opportunity for that nascent industry in Australia to make headway in our own country. In regard to tobacco, we are trying to develop the growing of tobacco in our Dominions. Hon. Members may say that we do not want to grow tobacco in the Dominions. I join issue with hon. Members who do not want to develop our Empire. It is the finest thing we have, and we must develop it by all the means in our power. If we can develop it, as I have shown, without any increased cost to the consumer in this country, we are not only right in doing so, but it is our bounden duty to do our utmost in that direction. In Nyasaland we are developing the production of Empire-grown tobacco. We are also developing tobacco production in India and Rhodesia. The consumption of Empire-grown tobacco has risen from less than 1½ per cent. to more than 6 per cent. of our total consumption. It is a small amount, but, whether tobacco be looked upon as a luxury or a necessity, at all events we have enabled the tobacco industry to take root in our Dominions, and there is every prospect of a really strong industry in tobacco culture growing up in those portions of our Dominions.

That question has not been put to me before. There has been no mention of Irish tobacco in the Debate this afternoon; if there had been, I should have been prepared with an answer. There is a further Preference on dried fruit, dried raisins, and so forth, to our Dominions, particularly Australia. The result has been that the importation of Empire raisins has risen to 17 per cent., compared with a mere 2 per cent. before the Preference was granted. In other words, this is a new industry built up in Australia by means of the Preference which we have granted. The hon. Member for Chippenham and the hon. Member for Dumfries both denied that these duties were wanted by our Dominions.

Then the hon. Member for Dumfries made that assertion. I say without hesitation that throughout the last few years there has been an increasing request on the part of the Dominions for some return for the preference which they gave us. They started by giving us a perfectly free preference, and asked for no return; but when that preference was found to be sound business from the Imperial point of view, and when that preference which gave us access to their markets on preferential terms was exceedingly beneficial to our own traders, were we to say, "We will give you no preference, even upon existing taxes." The hon. Member for Dumfries gave his whole case away when he said that he was dealing with the imposition of new taxes on food and so forth. We are not doing anything of that sort in this Budget. All that I have to defend is the grant of a preference for this current year to our Dominions upon taxes which are already in existence, and I think I have proved to the Committee that one of two things has taken place; either that the preference, as in the case of tea, has reduced the cost to the consumer here, and in no case has it raised the cost; or, in the alternative, it has improved the production in our Dominions. The hon. Member for East Ham South put a question in regard to the position of Ireland. He asked what would be the position of Ireland in regard to the Tea Duty if she did not continue the preference. It is hardly fair to ask a hypothetical question.

At the present time, Ireland is taking tea, most of which comes from bond in London, and the same conditions apply in regard to Ireland as apply here. She has granted a Preference to our Dominions. We have given her the right to formulate her own Government, and we have no right to dictate to her. We have no right to ask her what she intends to do. We must wait until Ireland makes an alteration, and then we shall have to consider the effect of that alteration upon our own Customs arrangements. At the present time, there is no alteration, and as far as I know there is no sign of an alteration. The hon. and gallant Member for Hull made some general observations in regard to Preference, and taunted me that some months or years back I was sitting on the opposite side of the House and was in some ways opposed to the Coalition Government to which he was opposed. I was opposed to it on different grounds. The hon. Member was opposed to it because it was too Conservative; I was opposed to it because it was too Radical.

I was opposed to it, because it was neither one thing nor another.

The point as regards Preference is that there may have been some difference of opinion on the subject amongst previous Governments, but in regard to this Government there is no difference of opinion whatever. This Government is unanimous on this subject.

When Mr. McKenna is a Member of this House and sits on this bench the hon. Member will be able to put questions to him. All that he is entitled to ask me to-day is my own view, and not only I, but the whole of His Majesty's Government to-day, are strongly convinced that it is desirable that these preference duties should be continued, desirable not merely for the benefit of the consumer in this country and for the benefit of the Dominions themselves, but—to adopt a very striking phrase used in 1919 in this House by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain)—desirable also as a spiritual recognition of a spiritual unity. [ Laughter. ] I am not sorry to hear that laughter, because it proves conclusively on which side of the House the interests of the Empire lie. It proves conclusively that any such idea as the spiritual unity of the Empire is foreign to the minds of hon. Gentlemen opposite. That is a phrase which was evolved by my right hon. Friend last year; it received the entire support of the Conservative party last year, and I repeat it here this year because it expresses the desire which we have to cement the spiritual unity of the Empire.

One lesson at least has been conveyed to the right hon. Gentleman; that is, that the rubbish that did duty in the last Parliament will not do duty in this. The rhodomontade of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain) and of his colleagues, who sat on that Bench then, which was applauded last year with such vociferous acclamation, will not be listened to now when it is subjected to the cold test of reasoning. A spiritual bond in the shape of one-sixth duty on tea, one-third on sugar and one-third on motor-cars is an abuse of words. The British Empire has always been a spiritual unity long before the right hon. Gentleman had anything to do with it, and long after his brief official existence has come to an end it will continue to be a spiritual unity. The true doctrine of the spiritual bond of the Empire is to be found in one of the greatest speeches ever delivered in the House of Commons, a speech by Edmund Burke in 1776. The British Empire, he said, is not founded on Customs or duties or taxes; but on the spirit of the whole, the spirit of kindred language and kindred things. It is these things and not Revenue laws and Customs regulations that bind the Empire together. [HON. MEMBERS: "We lost the United States!"] He was protesting against an effort to bring the Empire together by a material bond, such as Customs duties, and it was a question of the import of the tea which was thrown into Boston Harbour which precipitated the struggle.

The statesmen of this country learned their lesson from that. After the breach with America all these material bonds were broken and complete freedom was admitted both for the Mother country and the Colonies, and it was on the basis of complete freedom on both sides that the unity of the Empire really grew up, and that you had that exhibition of solidarity which was given in the case of the Boer War and the Great War. It is questionable whether, if you continue this new system, the same relationship will continue. The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) said that if we do not extend Preference it is doubtful whether separation will not become an issue, and we have had a further illustration of this in the quotation which the hon. Member for Bournemouth (Lieut.-Colonel Croft) made from Mr. Bruce, the present Prime Minister for Australia, that Australia would have to reconsider its attitude towards offers made by other countries if we did not continue and extend the Preference. You have introduced this whole element of calculation of material interest for the first time into the relationship with the Colonies by conceding Preference. For a long time we gave no Preference to anybody, but once we began to give it we are asked, "Are you giving enough? Are you paying the right price?" So long as this country maintained absolute equality in the interest, not only of its people, but in the interests of its general trade, and did not enter into any of these arrangements, no such questions arose. It is only now, when we have granted this Preference, that we find the different Colonies beginning to consider how much they ought separately to benefit.

Has the hon. Gentleman ever read the Resolution of the previous Imperial Conference before Imperial Preference was ever introduced at all?

I have read them all. On one occasion, at the Conference of 1908 I think, there was a suggestion of Preference of this kind, and the Government of that day wisely rejected it. The right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), Mr. Winston Churchill and Mr. McKenna were in that Government. I have heard eloquent speeches from Mr. McKenna denouncing Preference on precisely the grounds as those on which I am denouncing it. I wonder whether if and when he comes into this House he will maintain the same view. We have had an example of the confusion of otherwise intelligent people on this topic in the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bournemouth. He said: "Look at the sacrifice which Australia has made, a sacrifice of £7,000,000 revenue for the year, because they admitted our products at a lower taxation." What is the sacrifice? The people of Australia are getting these goods £7,000,000 cheaper. The argument of the hon. and gallant Member is that on the basis of the present imports into Australia, if the higher revenue were charged, the Australian revenue would benefit to the extent of £7,000,000, and he calls that a sacrifice on the part of Australia.

The hon. Member who introduced the Amendment put me on that line, because the consumers in this people were losing revenue.

I am very interested to see that the hon. and gallant Member has been put on a wrong line of thought. Then apparently there is no sacrifice on the part of Australia at all, and Mr. Bruce knows that, and yet it is said that unless we continue and extend the existing Preference, preferential arrangements will be made with other countries. We have this general question in the forefront, and it cannot be eliminated from this Debate, that paltry as this Preference is it is meant to be a step to something more, and it is because it has always been intended to be a step to something more that it has been resisted in this House. The "something more" is a Preference on wheat, meat, wool and raw materials. These are the only things that can benefit Australia, Canada and South Africa. Is that what the Financial Secretary is going to advocate at the next Colonial Conference?

Hon. Gentlemen behind him are in favour of it. It has been drawn from these benches that we must give something more. The hon. Member for Macclesfield; the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth, and the hon. and gallant Member for Finsbury (Lieut.-Colonel Archer-Shee), and many others whom I might name are in favour of that. Is that the policy of the Conservative party? The existing arrangement, we agree, is useless. The Financial Secretary knows that it is futile and it is only as a step towards something else that it was advocated by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham when introducing it. He never would have associated his father's name with it if he believed it was going to remain at the paltry figure at which it now stands. Everybody knows that to pretend otherwise is hypocrisy. There is no hypocrisy about the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth. He has been always perfectly frank and sincere in this matter, and we respect him as an honest controversialist, unlike many others on the opposite side. We want to know if the Financial Secretary is going to adopt this policy. There has been no defence by the Financial Secretary. For none of these things now suggested could he make any substantial case that it was of benefit to anybody.

7.0 P.M.

He never quoted a figure; he dealt with tea, sugar, cocoa and coffee, and his method of treatment was to refer to percentage increases in every case. There was an increase of from 50 to 80 per cent. in one case and from 2 to 22 per cent. in another case, and so on. Why did he not give us the actual figures, because without them his argument is totally meaningless. He was very proud of the fact that 90 per cent. of the tea consumed in this country was grown in the Empire, but he did not tell the percentage of Empire-grown tea consumed in this country before Preference was granted. I asked him, and he could not tell us. He told us also that the consumer benefits by the difference between the duty on foreign tea and the duty on Imperial tea. I am told by those in the trade that the consumer does nothing of the kind. Tea is the only substantial portion of the existing Preference. What effect has it had? It was to bind the Empire together to get more reciprocal treatment. Have the Indian Cotton Duties on Lancashire goods been reduced as a result of the Preference? Have not they been increased? As to the increased loyalty of India as a result of the Preference, I think the right hon. Gentleman, who is somewhat of an expert on India, will be able to speak with more authority than I can. I remember that probably the best speech he made in the last Parliament was an exposure of the present situation of India so far as the loyalty of that country is concerned. He would not attribute it to Preference, of course, but I do not think he would assert that the Preference on tea has done anything to help the situation in India. Therefore, it has helped us neither in respect of duties nor in regard to loyalty. What right has the right hon. Gentleman to suggest that it is going to help us in respect of anything else? Has the Preference with regard to tea been a spiritual bond that binds India to the British Empire? I do not think the right hon. Gentleman will suggest that. In these circumstances, I hope he will never quote that stupid phrase again. It was all right for a peroration in the last House. It would not have done at a street corner. It is extraordinary to find now this great enthusiasm for the rhetorical virtues of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham when they would not have him in the Government. I am surprised. There is no doubt that the Prime Minister was anxious to enlist the services and the assistance of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, possibly with a view to some more such perorations. We were told there was a revolt in the Government at the very idea, so now we have to get the right hon. Gentleman's perorations at second hand.

The right hon. Gentleman will not convince anybody by his suggestion that all the enthusiasm for the Empire, and all the interest in the Empire, and all the devotion of the Empire is a monopoly of the Conservative party. The party to which I belong can claim greater achieve- ments in the building up of the Empire than any other party in this Kingdom. It was under a Liberal Government that Canadian freedom was established. It was by a Liberal Government that South Africa was made loyal to the Empire. When right hon. Gentlemen opposite can point to equally great achievements, then may be the time for them to claim such a monopoly. It is not by devices like these that you are going to improve our relations with the Colonies, or to bind them more firmly to the Mother Country. We have seen evidence in this Debate that this useless and futile expedient has already given rise to questionings on the part of many of the Colonies as to the value of the Preference which is now given. It has

already reduced the question of the value of the Imperial tie to a matter of £ s. d. With these warnings before our eyes, surely it is time for us to learn the lesson that we have entered on the wrong path, that we are on the downward road, that we are going the way which, in the past, has made us lose an Empire, and that we should now retrace our steps in time so that the Empire which we still possess may continue a great possession, not only on our own behalf, but for the benefit of mankind.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 255; Noes, 150.

Division No. 194.]

AYES.

[7.8 p.m.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

Cope, Major William

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Howett, Sir J. P.

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Astor, Viscountess

Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North)

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Hobler, Gerald Fitzroy

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Hood, Sir Joseph

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Hopkins, John W. W.

Banks, Mitchell

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

Houfton, John Plowright

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

Barnston, Major Harry

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Becker, Harry

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Hudson, Capt. A.

Bell, Lieut-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Ednam, Viscount

Hughes, Collingwood

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Hume, G. H.

Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

Ellis, R. G.

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Hurd, Percy A.

Blundell, F. N.

Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

Brass, Captain W.

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Fawkes, Major F. H.

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Ford, Patrick Johnston

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

Forestier-Walker, L.

Jarrett, G. W. S.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Bruford, R.

Frece, Sir Walter de

Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

Buckingham, Sir H.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Furness, G. J.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

Ganzoni, Sir John

Lamb, J. Q.

Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

Garland, C. S.

Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Butt, Sir Alfred

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

Button, H. S.

Goff, Sir R. Park

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Cadogan, Major Edward

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'tle)

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Lorden, John William

Cassels, J. D.

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Lorimer, H. D.

Cautley, Henry Strother

Gretton, Colonel John

Lougher, L.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

Gwynne, Rupert S.

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Manville, Edward

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Margesson, H. D. R.

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford)

Clarry, Reginald George

Halstead, Major D.

Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Clayton, G. C.

Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

Mercer, Colonel H.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C (Kent)

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Harrison, F. C.

Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

Cohen, Major J. Brunei

Harvey, Major S. E.

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Hawke, John Anthony

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

Remnant, Sir James

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

Murchison, C. K.

Rentoul, G. S.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Nesbitt, Robert C.

Reynolds, W. G. W.

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

Newman, Sir H. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Thorpe, Captain John Henry

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall)

Titchfield, Marquess of

Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isl'gt'n W.)

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

Tubbs, S. W.

Nield, Sir Herbert

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Paget, T. G.

Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

Parker, Owen (Kettering)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Wells, S. R.

Pease, William Edwin

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

Penny, Frederick George

Sandon, Lord

Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Winterton, Earl

Perring, William George

Shepperson, E. W.

Wise, Frederick

Philipson, Mabel

Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A.

Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Skelton, A. N.

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Privett, F. J.

Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-In-Furness)

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Rankin, Captain James Stuart

Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

Yerburgh, R. D. T.

Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

Steel, Major S. Strang

Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Remer, J. R.

NOES.

Adams, D.

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Paling, W.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Ammon, Charles George

Hardie, George D.

Pringle, W. M. R.

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Harris, Percy A.

Richards, R.

Attlee, C. R.

Hastings, Patrick

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

Ritson, J.

Barnes, A.

Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

Batey, Joseph

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Herriotts, J.

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)

Hill, A.

Royce, William Stapleton

Bonwick, A.

Hillary, A. E.

Saklatvala, S.

Briant, Frank

Hinds, John

Salter, Dr. A.

Broad, F. A.

Hirst, G. H.

Scrymgeour, E.

Brotherton, J.

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Sexton, James

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

Buckle, J.

Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

Shinwell, Emanuel

Burgess, S.

Irving, Dan

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Sinclair, Sir A.

Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Sitch, Charles H.

Cape, Thomas

Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

Smith, T. (Pontefract)

Chapple, W. A.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Snell, Harry

Clarke, Sir E. C.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Snowden, Philip

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

Stephen, Campbell

Collins, Pat (Walsall)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Kirkwood, D.

Sturrock, J. Leng

Darbishire, C. W.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Sullivan, J.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Lansbury, George

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Duffy, T. Gavan

Lawson, John James

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Dunnico, H.

Leach, W.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Ede, James Chuter

Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

Thornton, M.

Edmonds, G.

Lowth, T.

Tillett, Benjamin

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lunn, William

Trevelyan, C. P.

Entwistle, Major C. F.

M'Entee, V. L.

Wallhead, Richard C.

Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Falconer, J.

March, S.

Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

Foot, Isaac

Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

Welsh, J. C.

Gardiner, James

Maxton, James

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Gilbert, James Daniel

Middleton, G.

Whiteley, W.

Gosling, Harry

Millar, J. D.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Morel, E. D.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Greenall, T.

Muir, John W.

Wintringham, Margaret

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Murnin, H.

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Wright, W.

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Nichol, Robert

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Groves, T.

O'Connor, Thomas P.

Grundy, T. W.

O'Grady, Captain James

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

Oliver, George Harold

Mr. Phillips and Sir A. Marshall.

Guthrie, Thomas Maule

The next Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Stirling and Clackmannan (Mr. T. Johnston) in itself raises a very narrow point as to the date at which the Tea Duty should come to an end. Subsequent Amendments also deal with the question of the duty on tea. It is obvious that we cannot have the same discussion on all these Amendments. Therefore, if I allow a full discussion of the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Stirling and Clackmannan it must be understood that there can be no further discussion on the Amendment to leave out Clause 1, and only a limited discussion dealing with the actual point at issue, namely, the reduction of the duty, on the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Cannock (Mr. W. M. Adamson).

I beg to move to leave out the word "first" ["paid until the first day of August"], and to insert instead thereof the word "thirty-first."

The Preference to which I wish to draw attention and the Preference which I wish to see abolished is the Preference that previous Governments, Liberal, Conservative and Coalition, have given to the rich consumer of tea as against the poor consumer. The imposition of a flat rate Tea Duty, no matter what may be the value of the pound of tea, naturally hits the poor much harder than it hits the rich; it hits the purchaser of the cheaper varieties of tea much harder than it hits the purchaser of the dearer varieties. The purchaser of the pound of tea at 6s. a pound is required to pay, if it be Indian tea, only 6⅔d. by way of duty, while the purchaser of tea at 1s. 10d. or 2s. per pound is equally required to pay 6⅔d. per pound. The effect of several Amendments standing in my name would be, if they were carried, to determine the present taxation of tea altogether as from 31st December next. By allowing the Treasury some few months' notice they could very effectively make the necessary arrangements; they would have plenty of time in which to accommodate themselves to the changed fiscal arrangements. But we desire to see the duty on tea abolished altogether. At the time when the Tea Duty was instituted it could be claimed that tea was a luxury and that the tax on tea was a tax on a luxury. But to-day that contention no longer holds good. Tea has become a necessity in hundreds of thousands of homes in this country. It has become a necessity to the aged. Many old-age pensioners regard tea as their chief necessity. Then, again, the present taxation on tea is not taxation according to ability to pay. The larger a man's family the more tea he will consume and the more he will pay in tax.

Taxation on tea is not taxation according to ability to pay. Its incidence is unfair, and the only justification for continuing it is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is faced with the necessity of getting revenue from somewhere. We could suggest to him many other avenues in which he could get the £11,000,000 and more, and get it much more fairly, without hitting the poor and without attacking the canons of taxation, to which, at any rate, he gives lip service. He can get that £11,000,000 and more if he will go to urban ground values for it, if he will go to the swollen ground rents of our cities. He can get it, or most of it, from the sums now paid to royalty owners at our coal mines. There is no end to the hen roosts that he could rob if he cared to do so. The tea trade at present will offer no objection. Most of the companies are making fabulous profits. I have a cutting here from "The Observer" of 3rd June. It gives a report of the chairman's speech at the Buda Beta Tea Company's meeting, showing how, on a capital of £80,000, there was a profit made last year of 105 per cent. The chairman said that the cost per pound was 1s. 0·44d. and that the average sale price was 1s. 9·40d. According to Stock Exchange reports, other companies are in a similar or a better financial position. The Tara Tea Company has been paying dividends of 10 per cent. to 25 per cent. over a long period of years. Another company, the Telbidde Ceylon Estates, Limited, is paying a dividend of 20 per cent. to 25 per cent. The Travancore Tea Estates Company, Limited, has been paying anything from 10 per cent. to 50 per cent. It is the duty of the House to lighten the burden of the poor, to temper the wind to the shorn lamb. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury, speaking an hour ago, justified the taxation of tea solely on the ground that all sections of the community must pay their share of taxation. But see how he does it! He imposes a flat rate tax. He taxes the poor woman's tea at 6⅔d. per pound and he taxes the duchesses' tea at the same rate.

It is a flat rate duty. If the hon. and gallant Member will look at page 2 of the Finance Bill he will see that the proposal is to maintain the duty on tea at 8d.

China tea pays 8d. a lb. and other tea 6⅔d. per lb. That is a flat rate, which hits the poor and allows the rich to escape. It is not in the interests of democracy and fair play to continue this duty, and as it stands the duty affronts all the canons of taxation.

The hon. Member in his speech attempted to prove too much, because he succeeded in demonstrating to the Committee that the companies are making profits, and obviously if we take the tax off tea they will make still larger profits. The reason why they are making profits is undoubtedly because there is a shortage of tea, and wherever there is a shortage the companies of course make a great deal more profit than would otherwise be the case. That shortage has been caused by introducing a process exactly opposite to that which the brewers have adopted in regard to beer. Instead of getting a worse tea we are getting a better tea by agreements among the planters to select only the finer graded teas.

These profits have been paid for years. I quoted them as applying to over ten years, and there has not been a shortage all that time.

They were not making large profits for several years, and there has not been a shortage for years. It is only in the last year or two. Another point in regard to this is that it is a very convenient tax. It raised £11,500,000 last year, and it enables one to tax every section of the community. Supposing that the hon. Member had his way, and that the Tea Tax was abolished altogether. The same arguments would undoubtedly apply to sugar as well, with the result that the people with small incomes would escape taxation altogether. I do not pay any tax on alcohol because I do not consume it—I am not doing my duty in that respect—and I do not pay any tax on tobacco because I do not consume it. Supposing I had a small income, and the taxes on tea and sugar were abolished, I should pay no taxation whatever, and that is not a desirable state of affairs at all. Another thing which the hon. Member forgets is that the tax is not responsible for any great increase in the cost of living. In 1921 it was responsible for only four points where the excess was 125 points. If hon. Members opposite accept the cost of living index figures in regard to the fixing of wages, they must accept the same calculation by the same officials in regard to this matter. Since 1921 we have reduced the taxation on tea by 4d., or one-third, with the result that it is now responsible for even less than the figure I have quoted.

I doubt very much whether there is any prospect, soon, of our getting back to the old system of 15 years ago when direct and indirect taxation were equally balanced. We got away from that system before the War, but during the War direct taxation was 80 per cent. of the revenue as compared with 20 per cent. Now 63 per cent. is paid by direct taxation and we cannot get back to the old equality, but that is no reason why we should make matters much worse. I take the point which Mr. McKenna made, the principle of his Budget in 1915, that tea, coffee and cocoa should be equally taxed. If we are going to reduce the tax on tea, we should have to reduce the taxation on coffee and cocoa as well, and that would mean that the tax on coffee, which now only makes £416,000, would be hardly worth the trouble of collecting, the results would be so small. Therefore, I think there is no argument in that direction. The Mover of the Amendment has utterly failed to prove his case. What we want to do, if we want to get the price of tea down, is to get a much larger production. If he could show that the taking off of the tax would benefit the consumer thon he might address that argument to the Committee, but I cannot see that the taking off of the tax at the present moment, when there is a shortage of tea, will benefit the consumer. For that reason, although I was elected as an Independent in regard to finance, he has failed to convince me and, while I have every predisposition in favour of reduced taxation on tea, I do not believe it will benefit the consumer at this particular time one atom and, therefore, I shall not vote with the hon. Member in the Division Lobby.

I am in favour of this Amendment on the general principle that I am opposed to all indirect taxation on food. There may be some case for indirect taxation on articles of luxury or of amusement, because some indication of the margin of income is given by money spent on luxury or amusement. When it comes to articles of food, however, there is no indication of the ability to pay. I think, of all indirect taxation, the taxes on tea and sugar are about the meanest which the Government ever imposed, except the tax which was formerly put on bread. In cases where the breadwinner of a home is unemployed or ill; in the case of a widow left with, perhaps, a little insurance money and nothing else to depend upon, a piece of bread with margarine and a cup of tea represents something very important. We must recollect the comfort to people in such circumstances of drinking something warm. To many a poor woman the only way of flavouring hot water is by using a small proportion of tea. The hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs) spoke about the shortage of tea and suggested that if the tax were taken off the merchant would immediately raise prices, because there would be some increase in the demand. There we have the strongest condemnation possible of the whole capitalist system. We know that those who have control of the commodities of life will exact the utmost, no matter what it means to the community. When we speak of a shortage, we should remember that in many cases shortages are not natural but artificial, and are caused by the fact that the big financial interests controlling particular commodities limit the production. We know that this is being done and that they have even got Government assistance and that output has been limited in many commodities, but we are not going to remedy that state of affairs by taxing every article so as to reduce consumption.

The hon. and gallant Member also said that it was a principle, years ago, that direct and indirect taxation should, as nearly as possible, balance in amount. I do not know that there is any real virtue in that idea, for it is not a logical nor an equitable basis. The bulk of the indirect taxation is paid by the very poorest of the people and practically the whole of the indirect taxation is paid by the wealthiest of the people, and when you tax poor people by means of indirect taxation on food, it is not a case of taxing people according to their capacity, but of taxing them according to their necessity. A working man who is single will pay very little in taxes on sugar, tea, dried fruits and similar articles, but take the case of the man whom we are asked to regard as the typical English working man—the man who gets married and sets up a home and has as many children as nature likes to send him. Look at the amount of taxation he has to pay out of his miserable income. Yet he is doing his duty to the State by rearing up boys and girls. He pays taxation, not in proportion to his ability, but in proportion to his own necessity and the necessity of his family. Government statisticians have been able to show that each decade a very much bigger proportion of the national income is represented by rent, interest and profit, and a very much smaller proportion by wages to the masses of the people.

At the time when it was thought that indirect and direct taxation should balance, the wages received by the mass of the people nearly balanced the rent, interest and profit received by their masters, but to-day the circumstances are different. I have not the exact figures, but as far as I remember, the last return showed that over two-thirds of the national income for a particular year was rent, interest and profit, and rather less than one-third went to the many millions who did all the useful productive work of the community. The argument has been advanced that, if the tax were taken off, the merchant would make a larger profit. Something else would happen. The Preference as between China tea or tea produced outside the British Empire, and the tea produced inside the British Empire, would not then be of so much advantage to those who hold shares in Assam and Ceylon and other places. They are the people who get the great advantage out of the Preference and they are the people who would be hit. We should then have as free an importation from places outside the Empire as from places within the Empire, and if we did abolish the tax on tea, then, by means of the free import, we should put an end to that restriction on the supply which exists to-day as a result of preferential arrangements.

The argument of the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone has given me an opportunity of bringing forward points of view which are often difficult to express in discussions on such an old and hackneyed point, but what I wish the Committee to realise is that taxation should be in proportion to the ability to pay, the only exception being the case of luxuries. We cannot say that tea is a luxury. It is a necessity to every household, and particularly every working-class household. Those who express sympathy with the agricultural workers, whose wages have been cut down to 25s. a week, and who say they cannot do anything to help the agricultural worker to a better wage because of competition, should consider that by removing taxation from the food of the people they will enable the people to secure a better standard of life even on the present low wages. Hon. Members who profess to be anxious to do something for these people should bear that point in mind. When they say that they cannot help the old age pensioners, and cannot allow the relatives of those poor people to give them any assistance without deducting it from the pension, because the country is so poor, I suggest to hon. Members that these poor people will greatly appreciate the removal of indirect taxation from foodstuffs. There is, therefore, an opportunity to-day for Members on the other side and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to influence the Chancellor of the Exchequer and to prove their sincerity when they say how deeply they sympathise with the unemployed, the old-age pensioner, and the poor agricultural worker.

I am very sorry that I cannot respond to the appeal made by the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Broad). Nobody likes these taxes; nobody likes any taxes, but we have all to pay, and I am prepared to base my defence of this tax simply on two grounds: first of all, that it involves £11,000,000 which we cannot do without, and, secondly, that every member of the community must pay something in taxa- tion. It is very hard to feel that the old age pensioner or the agricultural worker on 25s. a week should pay any taxes at all, but at the same time I put it to the Committee that it is desirable, in the interests of good government, that everybody should take a share in the payment of the taxes which run the Government. It gives him a responsibility for the Government, a right to vote, a right to complain of extravagance, and in effect it makes him a partner with every other member of the community in the government of the country. If it were possible to reduce this tax on tea and various other indirect, and indeed direct taxes, I should like to do so. That is the feeling of every man who has any kindly sentiment in his heart at all, but I should like to remind the hon. Member that the Tea Duty has been reduced twice since the War.

Figures were given by the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs), and at the present moment, in spite of the tax, the cost of tea is very little more in height than the cost of other foods. If you look at the figures of the rise in the cost of food, it will be seen that the price is 62 per cent. above pre-War, including all the untaxed wheat, corn, meat, butter, eggs, and so on, but the rise in the cost of tea, including the tax, is only 67 per cent., so that, really, the subject-matter which has been singled out for remission of taxation, because of cost, is a particular kind of food which is very little more expensive, from a percentage point of view, than the other foods. That is an argument which might be considered by hon. Members opposite. I know it will not satisfy them, nor would any reduction in the Tea Duty, except the complete sweeping away of the duty. Neither would any reduction of any of these indirect taxes satisfy them. If I possessed Fortunatus' purse and could give away as much money as I liked, I should be only too pleased to help the poorer classes of the community in this way, but at present it is not possible for the Government to give up the £11,000,000 revenue which comes from the Tea Duty, and I thought it would save the time of the Committee if I stated, quite frankly, that view at once.

The right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, in his concluding remarks, gave the usual excuse that is given whenever a concession is asked for. It is obviously so much easier to refuse any concession on taxation than to apply your mind either to reduction of expenditure or to the readjustment of balances in your Budget in order to meet the legitimate claims of the people. Of all the indirect taxes, this duty on tea is the one which bears the most heavily on the general mass of the population. In fact, if you could give a reduction on beer, I should have thought you ought, in the first place, to have given a further reduction on tea. You gave a small reduction last year, and we were in hopes of getting a larger one this year, and I think the figures of the Budget are sufficient to prove that it would be quite possible to make a reduction of this kind. Certainly a reduction of the Tea Duty might have preceded the abolition of the Corporation Profits Tax. Tea, after all, is almost the most universal article of consumption, practically, of all classes in this country, and it is taxed out of all proportion to its value. Therefore, it has a very special claim.

It is easy for the right hon. Gentleman to say that the Government cannot spare the revenue, but, at the same time, the other day the Government were lavishly handing out the money of the taxpayer to the agricultural landlords of this country. There are other sources of expenditure which might be curtailed or postponed, and the Government also might consider, as I have often urged, the question whether you ought blindly to pursue a policy of Debt reduction while the nation is suffering under an enormous burden of taxation which is far greater than it is possible to bear. As I have said, I cannot see but that, within the limits of the present Budget, in the hands of any competent, far-seeing men, you could make a reduction of this kind. If blind adherence to the pedantic methods of the Treasury is to be the only guide to our finances, you will never be able to make any reasonable reduction in any taxation. How long are the people of this country going to allow themselves to be overtaxed in all directions in order to fulfil some theoretical ideas which fill the minds of certain people at the Treasury, who too long have influenced the financial policy of this country? I am amazed at the patience of the tax- payers of this country. I am amazed that they really go on believing these statements which come from the Treasury Bench and from the Treasury year after year, that, like a patient mule or donkey, they must go on bearing these heavy burdens. It is not true. It is not a fact. There is no competent financier in the City who agrees with it, and yet it is the one kind of answer which we get all through these Debates, and I thought I would like to take the very first opportunity to rise and to enter my protest against this stereotyped and effete method of dealing with the great financial problems which face us to-day.

I would say to my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury and to those whom he represents that this country is sick and tired of being told on every occasion that there is nothing more to be done in the way of Debt reduction. Something more will have to be done, something more can be done, something more ought to be done, in order to reduce taxation in every direction, and this is one of the very first and most important occasions. We really want a much more adequate and reasoned defence of the heavy burden of taxation which is implied in this duty on tea than the very in adequate remarks of the right hon. Gentleman. It is not enough, and it really will not do, to say you cannot do this or that. Much more explanation is wanted, and the country is entitled to it. For instance, I am not at all convinced that there is no further reduction to be made in the colossal expenditure of the Government. You are to-day spending £1,000,000 a year on the Accounts Branch of the War Office, and when you have spent that £1,000,000 on the Accounts Branch of the War Office, the Treasury go through all these figures again.

Surely, in the beginning of the examination of the Estimates of that Department——

I only wished to intimate that it seems to me that there are means and methods which could be found by which this duty on tea could be reduced, and that the right hon. Gentleman's somewhat cursory method of dealing with it is not one which can be accepted on this side, and I cannot imagine that it will be popular on the other.

While I listened to the right hon. Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond), I felt as if I wanted to say, "Why on earth did not you do something before, when you had the opportunity?" I do not think I will occupy any time in dealing with anything else that the right hon. Gentleman said, because I am sure that most of the hon. Members present will agree with me in the previous remark that I have made. The hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs) stated that we could not reduce or abolish the duty on tea unless we abolish the duties on tea, coffee, and cocoa. As far as we on this side are concerned, we stand for a free breakfast table, and we are prepared to abolish all duties on all foods. We believe that with regard to the duty on tea and the duty on sugar, they are the two most unjust and indefensible taxes in the whole of our fiscal system. We would, and we shall as soon as the opportunity occurs, remove those taxes. Tea is not a luxury, as the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Broad) has already stated. Tea to the large mass of the working people of this country is a necessity. When it is impossible to buy a fat steak or to have bacon for breakfast, we find, whether it be the Lancashire operative who is working one week in two, or the engineer who is trying to be respectable on 56s. a week, or whether it be the man who is receiving relief to the extent of 32s. 6d. and trying to keep a wife and two children, they have to cut out everything except tea and bread. Therefore, the £12,000,000 that is taken from the duty on tea, which the Financial Secretary to the Treasury said we could not do without, is hitting those people who cannot afford to bear it.

We on this side believe that the sound principle of taxation should be that there must be equality of sacrifice, and, with regard to the present duty on tea, the only thing that can be said is that it demonstrates the inequality of sacrifice. The Tea Duty is levied irrespective of price. We find that the unemployed man or the poor person who buys tea at 2s. a pound has to pay 8d., or one-third, in taxation, but the well-to-do person who buys tea at 6s. a pound still pays only 8d., or, in other words, one-ninth, in taxation. We know that, when Income Tax is levied, people are able to arrange their mode of life in order to meet the tax they are called upon to pay, but it is impossible for any person belonging to the working classes so to arrange their life as to avoid paying the duty on tea. We find that last year the people who paid direct taxation were relieved to the extent of £50,000,000, while those who paid indirect taxation were relieved only to the extent of £5,000,000.

8.0 P.M.

This year the situation is slightly better. The wealthy people, the people who can and should supply the money that this country needs, are being relieved again to the extent of £38,000,000, while a certain section of the people are being relieved to the amount of £16,000,000 by the removal of a certain part of the taxation on beer. After all is said and done, beer is. not a necessary of life, and there are many hundreds of thousands of people in this country who will not receive any benefit as a result of the relief given to the indirect taxation by the reduction of the Beer Duty. We would rather have had relief in regard to tea; we would prefer that the people who must have tea should have had relief prior to those who desire beer. I am one of those who drink beer, and who would prefer beer—[ Laughter ]—I knew that would make hon. Members smile—yet I realise that there are so many people who must have tea because they cannot afford to buy beer. With regard to the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in which he stated that he would have preferred to have reduced the taxation on sugar rather than that on beer, I would point out that the financial argument he there used in regard to the world's markets cannot be used in regard to tea. I should very much like to know why the Government—admitting, for the sake of argument, that their contention as to the world's markets affecting sugar is correct—did not do the next best thing, and relieve tea in place of sugar. They did not do that, but we, on this side of the Committee, will be prepared to do so, and to place more taxation on the shoulders of the people whom we are certain can afford to bear it. Those of us who occasionally walk through the West End know full well that there are those in this country who can still bear a bigger burden of the taxation that is being imposed on the people. In fact, we have not to go outside this House; and on many occasions we see wealth flaunted in front of us. That proves conclusively that certain people could bear a still heavier burden of taxation. We shall endeavour to abolish the duties not only on tea and sugar, but on all the necessaries of life, as soon as we are sitting on that side of the House, and we shall try to place a still bigger burden on the shoulders of those people who can adequately bear it.

In previous Debates on this question we have had usually a reply from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury defending the Tea Duty on the ground that it was necessary so to arrange the Revenue that the taxation would be spread over all sections of the people, and on other grounds, one of which was that there must be equality between direct and indirect taxation. To-night the difference in this Debate is that, the Financial Secretary has founded his argument on only two grounds. The first ground is that he cannot sacrifice this Revenue of £11,000,000, and the second is that he wants to see the people of this country, throughout the whole of society, make their contribution to the Revenue of the time. Let us take those two arguments together. As regards the first, it is clear that this duty, in its yield, is comparatively small in comparison with other duties which are imposed, but I have no hesitation in saying that many of us on this side, if we had time, and if it were relevant in this Debate, could suggest 10 or 11 different methods right off under which the Exchequer could raise the whole of that £11,000,000 which would have to be sacrificed if the Tea Duty were abolished. A little later in our Debates we shall give only one illustration, when we discuss the evasion of Income Tax under the existing law. I emphasise that, because it is very important to indicate that we are not proposing to impose any new tax at all. We are only going to ask that, if our Amendment is carried, the existing taxpayers shall do their duty under the law. According to the evidence given before the Royal Commission by high authorities of the Inland Revenue, if those proposals were carried, between £5,000,000 and £10,000,000 would be the extra yield, and probably it would be not less than £10,000,000 per annum.

There is one illustration of a concrete character in reply to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, which indicates at once that if you ask people to do their duty under the law you can abolish this tax which falls with severity on the poor. One reason advanced by the Financial Secretary was that all sections of the community must make their contribution to revenue. That raises the old question, which we have had argued over and over again in Debates on the suggested abolition of the Tea Duty, regarding the relationship between direct and indirect taxation. Not so very long ago there was a definite effort to maintain a rough equality, and to raise about 50 per cent. from direct, and 50 per cent. from indirect taxation. In recent times, that balance has changed, until at the present day we are raising approximately 66 per cent. from direct taxation, and about 34 per cent. from indirect taxation. It is sometimes suggested that by taking a step of that kind we have got a strong case for refusing to modify any part of our indirect taxation, such as the part now under discussion. Let there be no misapprehension as to the effect of the change. I have always taken the view very strongly that, although there are in practice only 2,500,000 direct Income Tax payers in Great Britain, a very large part of their burden of £350,000,000 annually is passed on to the masses of people in the form of extra prices. There is not the slightest doubt about that, according to the speeches which have been delivered on the incidence of taxation in all parts of the House. If that be true, it is quite clear that the indirect taxpayers, apart from the very poor, are carrying a not inconsiderable part of that load, and we are therefore entitled to rank that as an argument in pleading for the abolition of this tax.

Coming to the other side of the question, the 50–50 argument, which has done duty in the past, there is no practical defence of the proposition. There is no merit whatever in the allocation of 50 per cent. as between direct and indirect taxation. The whole question is, first, what the different classes can bear with perfect fairness, and, secondly, how the incidence is working out. My contention is that there is a very strong case, under the social conditions of this country at the present time, for an extra concession in indirect taxation, even if we leave out of account altogether the very heavy burden which the masses of the people are having passed on to them by reason of the very high direct taxation that is enforced. This Tea. Duty, in the region of indirect taxation, is a very useful illustration. During the past two years, about £600,000,000 or £700,000,000, in the aggregate amount per annum, has been deducted from the wages of between 7,000,000 and 10,000,000 of the workpeople of this country. At the highest point about 2,000,000 people were unemployed, and there are 1,250,000 in that position at the present day. Their reserves are very largely exhausted, and they have had to carry a very considerable proportion—apart from any unemployment benefit of their societies by reason of the contributions that they have been making for members of their families, and others out of work—of that direct taxation which has been passed on. They have not had very much relief in the aggregate from indirect taxation.

The Budget is really an outrage on existing social conditions, because it does practically nothing in the amelioration of indirect taxation. Surely it is a fair request to make, that under conditions such as this country is in at the present day, we should do more to relieve the necessities of the very poor, and of those whose incomes admittedly have been very seriously reduced? There is one great factor in taxation which, better almost than any other, illustrates the strength of our case. There is a law in economics which says that the poverty of a family is measured by the proportion of the expenditure of its income on the strict necessaries of life. If we apply that test to the poorest localities of the country to-day, we find that a very large part of the expenditure is on tea, bread and other dire necessaries, without which the people cannot carry on, and that some of those commodities are very highly taxed. That is the strength of our case for the Amendment we are putting forward. I agree entirely that we must get taxation down at the earliest possible moment, but in the process of doing so we must get the taxes off he people who are suffering most, and if we take any elementary, social and economic test to-day, those who are bearing indirect taxation and cannot pass it on are entitled to the first claim on our consideration.

A remark made by the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Burgess) about tea being a necessity of the poor is borne out very clearly by the official statistics of the Government. I hold in my hand the 13th Report of the Commissioner of Customs and Excise, and the figures therein are very remarkable. If we look at the tables of the imports into this country of cocoa, coffee and sugar, it is perfectly easy to trace the time when the slump in employment reached us, and the consumption of those articles went down very noticeably. With regard to tea, however, the bad times actually brought an increase of consumption. That is the extraordinary part of the matter. I will not trouble the Committee with many figures, but taking the case of cocoa, the net quantity—I will deal in quantities, as the prices fluctuate—entered for consumption, in the year 1919, was 1,230,000 cwts.—I am leaving out a few odd hundreds. In 1920, it was 1,271,000 cwts. Then, the slump began to affect us. In 1921 the total was 925,000 cwts., and in 1922, although the figures show an increase, they were still much below those of 1919 and 1920, being 970,000 cwts. The same thing applies to coffee, sugar, tobacco, etc. With regard to tea, in 1919 the quantities imported and retained for consumption—that is the gross imports less re-exports—were 321,000,000 lbs. In 1920, the total was 408,000,000 lbs; in 1921, 394,000,000 lbs; and in 1921–22, the last figures available, actually we had 413,000,000 lbs. of tea retained in the country for consumption by the people. This is the highest record since 1903. In fact, I think I am right in saying that it is the highest amount of tea ever brought into this country for consumption, in spite of the great unemployment and poverty and distress and of all kinds of bad trade. That proves very conclusively that when people are really poor they take tea, and this tax hits worst these people on the lowest scale of subsistence owing to unemployment and poverty. There is a very strong case, for that reason, to remove the tax. It is all very well for people to say that tea is not wholesome, that it is bad for the nerves, and so on. You could possibly quote medical evidence to show that cocoa is better, but the fact remains that people find that tea is most useful to them in time of stress. Tea has many virtues. It is easily prepared, it does not go bad, it is not affected by damp, it is comforting and cheering and helpful, and it is a very fair subject for the Solicitor-General. He knows the value of tea in the watches of the night.

There is another reason why the Government should accept this Amendment. If we take off the tax, one of two things will happen. Either there will be an increase in the consumption of tea, in which case there must be an increase in imports, and therefore, as tea comes from India, China, and a very small quantity from Java and the Dutch East Indies, that tea must be paid for with exports—that means an increased export trade which can only be in the form of manufactured goods, which again means increased employment—or else the amount consumed will remain as it is. In that event the budgets of the poor will be relieved of so much taxation. The money so realised will go to the buying of foodstuffs and clothing and so on, and that will help the internal market. Employment will thereby be created. I often think the internal market is overlooked and that it is sometimes forgotten that every pound we take in taxation from the masses of the people is reflected in less necessities being purchased in the interior of the country.

The argument of the hon. and gallant Member would apply to the imposition of any indirect tax. He must keep to the question of tea.

I shall not use that argument on subsequent Amendments. The Government must have surely realised that this, above all things, is a most unfair tax and is particularly burdensome on the people at this time of bad trade and unemployment. Further, it is most unfair that the tax should be the same in the case of the wealthy and of the poor. It is nothing to well-to-do people, or even to the middle-class, that they should pay 8d. a pound on tea, but in the case of poor households, with the breadwinner out of work, or the ex-service man trying to scrape along on a very often inadequate pension, this small tax is most burdensome. An hon. Gentleman above the Gangway spoke of a free breakfast table. Since I have had the honour of being in the House I have always advocated a free breakfast table, and I always shall, and I have always voted in favour of the removal of all taxes on foodstuffs, but, if there be one duty, above all the others, I would abolish it is this Tea Duty. It is no use talking about the two small reductions that have been already made. This tax is particularly burdensome and unfair. There is no use of the Government saying that this means £11,000,000 which they cannot afford. There are plenty of people in this country who can help to make up the £11,000,000. The plea is that the Government cannot afford the £11,000,000 while this injustice is being inflicted on old age pensioners and the poor people of the country., That argument is no defence to this iniquitous tax. I only regret that the House is now so empty and has been so during the discussion of this duty. I am sorry to see the benches opposite, in which we had hoped to make some impression, so empty. It shows that many people who come here on the appropriate occasions to talk of their sympathy for the ex-service man, the old age pensioner, and so forth, are not here when it comes to practical matters like this.

I only rise for the purpose of impressing one or two points which have been already made. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs) pointed out that the tax on tea is about 4 per cent. He compared the figure with the cost of living and pointed out that, with regard to the cost of living and the articles not taxed, the difference in tea amounted to about 4 per cent. I should like just to point out, however, that this Amendment has been taken in conjunction with other Amendments which on the whole would create a considerable difference so far as the cost of living to the poor of the country is concerned. This tax on tea hits the poor much harder than the other sections of the community. The average poor person consumes more tea than the person in a more comfortable state of life. I know by experience among workmen that thousands of them drink tea three and four times a day. They take it at breakfast time, they take it with dinner, and they take it when they get home again at night, and it is the almost universal beverage among thousands of our working people. The duty therefore hits them much harder than the other sections of the community who drink other beverages. As the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Burgess) points out, it is an unfair tax, in that the man who buys the cheaper tea pays a larger percentage of the tax. He is hit in two ways. He not only pays more so far as the value of the commodity is concerned, but he gets the worst kind of tea. He gets the cheapest tea, and he pays the largest per cent. of taxation. That is a most unfair way of dealing with taxation. A man or a woman who has to buy the sweepings of the warehouse floor pays as much in taxation as the person who buys the most expensive tea that can be grown. There is no method by which the poor can evade the tax, but the rich people notoriously do evade taxation. It is notorious that wholesale evasion of taxation goes on, but for the poor people who have to pay a tax on every purchase they make there is no evasion. We on these benches are pressing this Amendment with all the power at our disposal, because we believe that this tax is not only bad in its incidence, but it is iniquitous. We ought to get some reduction of taxation. Our complaint is that the Government have sought no other avenue for reducing taxation. They are not seeking means whereby these food taxes can be reduced. You will not find any way out of the difficulty so long as the Government consents to paying such enormous sums in interest on huge War Loans. That is the source of the difficulty. If the Government devoted its attention to seeking to reduce the annual increments of interest——

This kind of argument may be very relevant when we are discussing the Sinking Fund, but it hardly relates to the Tea Duty.

The Government say they get very little from this tax, and yet they insist upon these taxes, which they say result in a negligible quantity, but which really constitute a very great burden so far as the purchasers are concerned. I think the Government might see its way to making some slight reduction here to assist the people who are very badly hit at the present moment, and this Amendment would render the position in life of the poor much more tolerable.

I think it is perfectly monstrous that when an important debate such as this is taking place in Committee not a single representative of the Treasury is to be found sitting on the Treasury Bench. When a question affecting millions of our populace is under review, and which, in the words of the Financial Secretary, concerns the Exchequer in an incredible degree since it would not afford to dispense with the revenue provided by the Tea Duty, surely when such an important topic is under consideration we are entitled to say that this House is not being treated with the respect it deserves when there is nobody on the Treasury Bench to reply to our arguments. I observe the Solicitor-General is reclining on the Treasury Bench, but I should say from his demeanour he is not taking a very deep interest in the arguments which are being addressed to the Committee.

I was trying to find out whether I was right or wrong in my diagnosis of the Solicitor-General, and I hope his interest in the debate will be revived by what I have said. I submit there is no defence for the proposal to continue the Tea Duty which has been submitted by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. What have we heard? The Financial Secretary for the Treasury says to this Committee: "I am full of sympathy with the old age pensioners and the very poor, and the disabled ex-service man and his poor helpless dependants, and for all those people who are suffering from low wages, but in the present state of the national finances I cannot afford to forego this revenue of £11,000,000 per annum."

You, Mr. Chairman, have suggested that arguments relevant to the matter under review relating to the expenditure which the Government have been responsible for are not in order, but I submit that the Government during the past few weeks have themselves undertaken considerable items of expenditure, and as an illustration I would mention the £11,000,000 spent on a dock at Singa- pore, expenditure which, if it had not been undertaken, would have enabled the Government to grant this remission of duty to-day. It is unfair to this House and to those whom we represent that the Government should refuse to forego this revenue on the ground that they are unable to meet the expenditure for which they themselves are responsible. May I submit to the Committee that the argument, if it can be called such, which was adduced by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury in defence of a continuance of this duty is very familiar. I observe from the OFFICIAL REPORT of 1922, when the same question was under discussion, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R, Horne) used the following words:

With regard to the argument of the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone may I say if all must pay their share of taxation equitably according to their ability to pay and in proportion to the hon. and gallant Member's peculiar views with regard to a 50–50 arrangement as between direct and indirect taxation, in regard to the imposition of an Income Tax on the wealthier section of the community you still find it necessary to impose some form of indirect taxation? If the hon. and gallant Member and his colleagues desire to be logical, they should impose indirect taxation only on those who are not subject to any form of direct taxation, but such a proposal would be absurd, and so we maintain that on grounds of equity and on the grounds of the need for finance in order to meet the nation's commitments, we are entitled to ask for such a remission of taxation as will enable the poorer classes of the community to make life more tolerable. Finally, may I submit to the Committee that when it was proposed to remit certain duties on alcoholic liquors—a subject with which I do not propose to deal now—it was argued that such a remission would be of very great advantage and benefit to the poorer sections of the community. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite spoke grandiloquently of the favours which would be handed down to the agricultural workers of the country, a class especially suffering from a continual lowering of wages, as a result of the revision of the duties on beer. But surely hon. Members on both sides will agree that if it is a question as between the remission of duties on alcoholic refreshments or those upon tea, the duty which affects the greater portion of the community is the one which should be selected for the remission, and therefore the Government in this case should make their remission on the Tea Duty. From the point of view of our women folk who presumably are not much affected by remissions of other forms of indirect taxation, and of the children as well, we are entitled to ask that this remission on the Tea Duty should be granted. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury said "Oh! but you are asking me to give the whole of this duty away." My reply to that is, it is still open to the right hon. Gentleman to suggest a partial remission on the Tea Duty, and we will express our views with regard to that. So far, however, nothing has been offered to the poorer sections of the community, and we are bound to enter our protest, not only at the absence of Treasury representatives from the Front Bench, but against the continuation of a duty from which the working classes suffer so hardly. It is our duty to use all our influence against such a monstrous imposition.

As I happen to be the only Member of the Government here at the moment, owing to the time at which this Debate has arisen, it is desirable, perhaps, I should say a word in reply to the various comments that have been made, and, after that, I hope hon. Members will feel there has been a sufficient discussion of this subject. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] That is the hope I entertain. The hon. Member who last spoke (Mr. Shinwell) declared that the arguments used in refusing concessions in connection with the Tea Duty are repeated year after year. It may be, however, that the arguments which have been used in past years have been so good that the Tea Duty has never been relaxed to the extent hon. Members opposite desire. I think the difficulties of the situation can be gauged in the fact that the right hon. Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) who made a very vigorous attack on the Government has himself been in a position to carry out these proposals and has failed.

The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) was at some pains to labour the point that tea is a necessary. The hon. and gallant Member need not labour that point for I am not going to dispute that it is a necessity for the poorest classes. But hon. Members will appreciate that if you are going to admit the principle of indirect taxation you will probably be wise to select one or two necessaries upon which to impose it because if the articles are in the nature of luxuries the persons who have been in the habit of consuming them will avoid them in order to escape the tax. You must, if you are to have indirect taxation, have one or two articles which are necessaries of life. The hon. Member for Merthyr (Mr. Wallhead) says it is an objectionable tax because it falls just as much upon the sweepings of the tea shop as upon the higher class article which the very rich consume. The question is whether or not that can be avoided. It would be very difficult indeed to impose an ad valorem duty on tea. The effect of an ad valorem duty is probably to drive consumption to the inferior article, be- cause persons naturally avoid the consumption of that on which the duty is higher. The very effect of having an ad valorem duty on tea would be to drive the poorer classes who, at present do not by any means confine their consumption to the lowest priced teas—to the consumption of what the hon. Member himself defines as the "sweepings of the tea-shops." I do not say that that is a satisfactory argument from any point of view, but it is an argument which has to be borne in mind, and it has to be coupled with the fact that it would be very difficult indeed to devise a means of imposing an ad valorem duty.

An appeal has been made to the Government for some slight reduction of the duty. Hon. Members should not forget that there was a slight reduction last year, and there was also a slight reduction so far as 90 per cent. of the tea consumed in this country is concerned when Preference was given. It may be said that we ought to have made another slight reduction this year. That is hardly a question of principle. It becomes a question which part of the taxation contained in the Budget should be selected for some remission. It would be improper for me to attempt to range over the whole Budget, pointing out where economies might be effected or where a more desirable tax might be imposed. Obviously the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in framing his Budget, has to do his best with the material which he has. He has introduced his Budget, and the question involved in this particular Amendment is, not whether economies can be effected in some direction, or another tax could be imposed in another direction, but whether the framework of the Budget as a whole is such as to enable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make in this year a further remission of the duty on tea. He has to observe a proper balance in all these matters, and, although I, for one, recognise it is desirable we should, as soon as possible, relieve the poor of this burden on so necessary an article of life as tea, yet maintaining the proper balance of the Budget, I submit it is not possible this year.

I would say one word further with regard to what was said by the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham), who always speaks with moderation and force on these matters. He used a phrase which, I daresay, escaped the attention of many hon. Members. He referred to the burden that was placed on the poor in consequence of the high rate of direct taxation. That expression recognises a fact. I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) pointed out, either last year or the year before, that the remission of direct taxation is desirable in the interests of the very classes in whom hon. Members opposite are so much interested, and that it is a complete mistake and fallacy to suppose that it is only indirect taxation which affects the poor. Direct taxation goes down sooner or later to reach those very people whom hon. Members desire to protect. You cannot divide taxation into direct and indirect, and say that the one hits the wealthy and the other hits the poor, and that it is desirable to limit the latter—the indirect—in order that you may increase the direct taxation upon those who can so well afford to bear the burden. I am not sanguine, after the observations which the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Shinwell) made upon my attitude, that these arguments will answer his points, but at any rate, I hope that hon. Members will feel that there has been a sufficient Debate, and that we may now come to a Division on this question.

I should like to refer to one point which was raised by the Solicitor-General in the course of his reply to the discussion. He spoke of the observations made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond), and about what the right hon. Gentleman might have done while he was in office. May I suggest to the Solicitor-General that it does not help us to come to a conclusion when he makes references of that kind, because I submit that, when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea was in office, he had to spend money on a very much more important matter than the present Government is budgeting for. The question before the Committee at the moment is that of the duty on tea, and I do feel that the Committee, before it goes to a Division, ought clearly to realise that the Government has not quite played fair with all sections of the House in arriving at the decision embodied in the Budget Resolutions.

Tea is an article of consumption which is universally used in all parts of the country. Later on, there will come before the Committee the question of a reduction in the Beer Duty, and in the case of spirits, no change is proposed. We are brought to this conclusion, as regards the action of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that what is being done by the Government is to lower the duty on beer, but, as regards tea, to refuse to do anything, because no pressure has been brought to bear by any interest, and to leave the Spirit Duty as it was. I submit that it is very unfair that we should be called upon to support the existing duty on tea. No sort of consideration is given in any direction which vitally affects the households of the country. The position of the Government will not bear examination on any public platform in any part of the country, and I feel that the Solicitor-General has signally failed to satisfy me that he has any case in support of the existence of the Tea Duty. Our predecessors have spoken for years about the virtues of a free breakfast table, and hon. Members above the Gangway now vie with us, although in some respects they consider us to be somewhat old fashioned, in agitating and speaking in favour of that ideal. This year, however, we have in power a Government which, according to a speech which was delivered the other night at Oxford, and which I had the pleasure of reading, is going to revive the old notions of Disraeli and to work on democratic lines——

I am glad to see that the Prime Minister has arrived, because I was quoting from his speech, in which he referred to those old ideals of Disraeli, and I do feel that the concrete proposals embodied in his Budget fall very far short of those ideals. As for the answer of the Solicitor-General, I have, of course, no sort of hope that we are going to get anything out of this Government which goes in the slightest degree towards helping the great masses of the people, and, therefore, if we go to a Division on this point, the great bulk of those who really represent, as I do, the workers, without respect to political divisions, will certainly have to oppose the Government on this matter, because we feel that it has fallen short of the ideals which we were led to expect of it.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury, in referring to the ability to pay this tax, said that the cost of living was only 67 points higher now than the pre-War level, but that seems to me to be a singular argument for the imposition of this tax. It means that £1 to-day will only buy what 12s. 6d. would buy in 1914. I am strongly opposed to this tax, first of all because it is very unfair in its incidence. There is plenty of tea sold to-day for as much as 10s. per pound, and the tax upon that tea is only 5 per cent., whereas the tax upon the tea bought by the poorer people of this country is more than 25 per cent. I am also opposed to this tax because, of all the taxes in our fiscal system, this is the one that most hits the poorest people of this country. We have to-day over 1,200,000 unemployed, and those people have to pay this tax. The old-age pensioner, out of his 10s. per week, has to return a part to the State in the tax upon his cup of tea. Those ex-service men, and there are plenty of them, who are on a 50 per cent. pension, have to pay this tax. The agricultural labourer with his 25s. a week, which is about 17s. in pre-War value of money, also has to pay this tax. The very poorest people have to pay it. The remission of taxation in this Budget is altogether unfair. In two years £75,000,000 has been taken off the taxes of the very rich, but there has been very little remission of taxation on the very poor. There is no more unjustifiable tax in our system than this Tea Duty, and in my judgment there is no justification for it, and I shall vote for its entire abolition on the first opportunity I get. We on this side stand for the abolition of all taxation upon food, because we have millions of people who are entirely below the poverty line and these people on no grounds whatever should be asked to pay a tax like this. It seems to me nothing but refined cruelty to tax them. There is no tax that excites more indignation than the Tea Duty, and I shall vote against it.

The most amazing thing in the annual Debates with regard to tea is the agility with which some hon. Members can change their point of view. One would have been led to expect from a speech such as that we heard from the hon. Member for Montrose Burghs (Mr. Sturrock) that on every occasion on which the question of the remission of taxation upon tea had been discussed he had voted in favour of it. But he has had a very vacillating career with regard to this question. The most amazing thing of all is that after he has been in the Lobby to oppose a Resolution from this side of the House, he has the temerity to make a speech in favour of it. I hope it is an indication of his permanent conversion to a remission of taxation on tea. One can forgive the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) because he rushed in where angels fear to tread, and he has not had a long political experience to test him. I would not charge him with being one of those who can rapidly change their cloth if their party comes into power, but it is a very singular fact in political history that the party to which he belongs have been the most ardent advocates of a free breakfast table when in opposition, but when they have been in power they have always opposed the remission of taxation. Those changing fortunes may belong to my party at some time, but I hope if I am a member of the Labour party when they come into power, if they ever do, the first time they try to change their political creed with regard to indirect taxation I will desert them, because the most sincere test with regard to the honesty of parties is what will they do when they are in power.

This is not a question of the ethics of political parties, but of the duty of 8d. on tea.

I am obliged to you, Sir, for having allowed me to finish my argument. I know the arguments almost by heart. There are two or three on each side. The principal argument, from our point of view, is not exactly the remission of the duty, and not exactly the incidence on the poor, but that it is indirect taxation, and from that point of view, more than any other, the party to which I belong are strongly opposed to it. It violates every canon of taxation laid down by every recognised economist, and it does not lay the burden upon the shoulders that are capable of bearing it. It falls very hardly on the poor. There is one suggestion I should like to make. I do not know whether it is practical or not. If the Government can go no further, they ought to make it possible to get the tax removed from old age pensioners and that class of people. I believe it is not beyond the wit of man to devise some means whereby the very poor could

get the tax remitted by a slip which could be handed to the shopkeeper.

Question put, "That the word 'first' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 232; Noes, 160.

Division No. 195.]

AYES.

[9.4 p.m.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James

Furness, G. J.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Ganzoni, Sir John

Morden, Col. W. Grant

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

Garland, C. S.

Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

Astor, Viscountess

Gates, Percy

Murchison, C. K.

Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Nesbitt, Robert C.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Goff, Sir R. Park

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y N.)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Banks, Mitchell

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Barnston, Major Harry

Gretton, Colonel John

Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

Becker, Harry

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Bell, Lieut.-Col, W. C. H. (Devlzes)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Parker, Owen (Kettering)

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

Halstead, Major D.

Penny, Frederick George

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Harrison, F. C.

Perring, William George

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Harvey, Major S. E.

Philipson, Mabel

Brown, Major D. C. (Hexhem)

Hawke, John Anthony

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Bruford, R.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Privett, F. J.

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

Rae, Sir Henry N.

Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

Hilder. Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Button, H. S.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Cadogan, Major Edward

Hood, Sir Joseph

Remer, J. R.

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Hopkins, John W. W.

Remnant, Sir James

Cassels, J. D.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Rentoul, G. S.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Houfton, John Plowright

Reynolds, W. G. W.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Hudson, Capt. A.

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Hughes, Collingwood

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Clarry, Reginald George

Hume, G. H.

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Clayton, G. C.

Hurd, Percy A.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley

Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isl'gt'n W.)

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

Cope, Major William

Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Craig, Capt. C. C (Antrim, South)

Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

Sandon, Lord

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North)

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Shepperson, E. W.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A.

Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

Lamb, J. Q.

Skelton, A. N.

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Doyle, N. Grattan

Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furn'se)

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Steel, Major S. Strang

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Lorden, John William

Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

Ellis, R. G.

Lorimer, H. D.

Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Lougher, L.

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

Lynn, R. J.

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Fawkes, Major F. H.

Manville, Edward

Thorpe, Captain John Henry

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Margesson, H. D. R.

Titchfield, Marquess of

Forestier-Walker, L.

Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Mercer, Colonel H.

Tubbs, S. W.

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Wallace, Captain E.

Wise, Frederick

Yerburgh, R. D. T.

Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-Tees)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.

Wells, S. R.

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill-(High Peak)

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

NOES.

Adams, D.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Harbord, Arthur

Pringle, W. M. R.

Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

Hardie, George D.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Harris, Percy A.

Richards, R.

Ammon, Charles George

Hastings, Patrick

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Attlee, C. R.

Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

Riley, Ben

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Hayday, Arthur

Ritson, J.

Barnes, A.

Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

Batey, Joseph

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Bonwick, A.

Herriotts, J.

Royce, William Stapleton

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hill, A.

Salter, Dr. A.

Briant, Frank

Hinds, John

Scrymgeour, E.

Broad, F. A.

Hirst, G. H.

Sexton, James

Brotherton, J.

Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

Shinwell, Emanuel

Buckle, J.

Irving, Dan

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Burgess, S.

Jarrett, G. W. S.

Sitch, Charles H.

Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Smith, T. (Pontefract)

Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Snell, Harry

Cape, Thomas

Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

Snowden, Philip

Chapple, W. A.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth)

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Charleton, H. C.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

Clarke, Sir E. C.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Stephen, Campbell

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Collins, Pat (Walsall)

Kirkwood, D.

Sturrock, J. Leng

Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

Lansbury, George

Sullivan, J.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Lawson, John James

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Darbishire, C. W.

Leach, W.

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Lee, F.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Dudgeon, Major C. R.

Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Duffy, T. Gavan

Lowth, T.

Thornton, M.

Dunnico, H.

Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Tillett, Benjamin

Ede, James Chuter

M'Entee, V. L.

Trevelyan, C. P.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

McLaren, Andrew

Turner, Ben

England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Wallhead, Richard C.

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

March, S.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

Falconer, J.

Middleton, G.

Welsh, J. C.

Foot, Isaac

Millar, J. D.

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Gilbert, James Daniel

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Whiteley, W.

Gosling, Harry

Morel, E. D.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Muir, John W.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Greenall, T.

Murnin, H.

Wintringham, Margaret

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Nichol, Robert

Wright, W.

Groves, T.

O'Grady, Captain James

Young, Rt. Hon. C. H. (Norwich)

Grundy, T. W.

Oliver, George Harold

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Guthrie, Thomas Maule

Paling, W.

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Phillipps, Vivian

Mr. Lunn and Mr. T. Griffiths.

I understood from the Deputy-Chairman that he said he would select the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Cannock (Mr. W. M. Adamson) to leave out the word "eight" and to substitute instead thereof the word "four," on condition that the general debate was not repeated.

With that reservation, I beg to move to leave out the word "eight" ["the lb., eight pence"] and to insert instead thereof the word "four."

The object of the Amendment is to reduce by half the amount of the Tea Duty. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury would not accept the reasoning and the pleadings of my hon. Friends to abolish the Tea Duty, but we feel very hopeful that we may be able to implore him, bearing in mind the arguments that have been used, to accept this Amendment as a compromise. I did not speak on the previous Amendment, and I can, therefore, honestly say that I am rather hopeful that this Amendment will be accepted. Something more should be done to relieve this levy upon the poverty of the poorest. The Financial Secretary might, at least, show some indication of his real sympathy in regard to the imposition of the Tea Duty, and I ask for some pronouncement in that direction.

I would like to please the hon. Gentleman if it were possible by accepting this Amendment, but it is not possible. The answer which I gave in regard to the last Amendment was that it would cost £11,000,000, and this Amendment would cost £5,500,000. We cannot make that concession on this tax, and I hope that the hon. Member will not press me to restate the arguments which I stated some hours ago. The hon. Member has moved the Amendment in so charming a manner that I would like to meet him if I could, and I regret that I cannot.

I desire to support the Amendment, and to emphasise the appeal made on behalf of many millions of working people, especially women, who are suffering to-day because of unemployment, low wages and other hardships. I appeal also for the 1,250,000 people who are unemployed at present and their dependants, and especially old-age pensioners and the 130,000 people between 60 and 70 years old, who are unemployed and have little chance of securing employment at the present moment. I am a great tea drinker and——

I must remind the hon. Member that the Deputy-Chairman consented to select this Amendment on condition that the general argument about tea should not be repeated.

I obey your ruling, as I am one of the most law-abiding persons in the kingdom. But may I take another point to show why this concession should be made? The Federation of British Industries have been to see the Chancellor of the Exchequer and they, as an organisation of capitalists, have prevailed on him to give them relief in various directions. Therefore, it does seem to me that 4d. ought to be given to the poor of the kingdom, seeing that millions have been given to these people.

The Committee have heard with disappointment and dismay the decision of the Financial Secretary in this matter. So far we have obtained no concessions in connection with these duties, and unless we make our attack more severe than it has been up to the present we are not likely to get anything in the nature of a compromise from the right hon. Gentleman. I should have thought that, having regard to the great distress in the country, the poverty of our great working-class population, the low purchasing value of money and the little money that goes into the homes of our people owing to the protracted and distressing unemployment, and with so many of our people living upon 15s. a week, in many cases received with children's allowances from the Unemployment Exchanges, while others receive relief from the boards of guardians, the Government would have shown readiness, if not to abolish the tax, at any rate to make some reduction in it. The tax of 8d., which these people have to pay on every pound of tea, decreases the purchasing value of the small amount of money which they can afford.

I think that that argument would be relevant on the general Question, which has already been decided, but the hon. Member cannot go into that on this Amendment.

I thought that I should be in order if I adduced evidence which would lead the Committee to agree that a reduction was necessary, and that I was entitled to discuss the principle of the tax so far as it incidence was concerned. But I think that the Committee is disappointed, and the country will be disappointed when the news is printed in the Press to-morrow, that the Government are not prepared to make any reduction in this tax.

The Financial Secretary said that this Amendment would cost £5,500,000, but he seems to have overs looked the fact that there would be a larger consumption of tea because of the reduction in duty. There is a very great gulf between hon. Gentlemen on these benches and those below the Gangway, because whenever questions of housing or other matters affecting the welfare of the people are discussed, we are always told by hon. Members below the Gangway that if labour would only take lower wages it would reduce the cost of production, and there would be a greater demand for the article. Hon. Members cannot have it both ways. If they seriously put forward the claim that if labour would consent to accept lower wages then there would be a wonderful increase of consumption of all articles——

That has nothing to do with the question of the difference between 8d. and 4d.

My point is in reference to the £5,500,000 which it is said the Amendment would cost, and I am suggesting that the reduction of the duty by 4d. would lead to an increase in the consumption of tea. There are many families who cannot get as much tea as they would like, and they have to make the one tea do many times, and the tea thus stewed is very deleterious to the health of those who take it. With an increased consumption the right hon. Gentleman would not have to Budget for such a deficit as he has mentioned. That is the point I wish to make in support of this Amendment.

I think there is force in the argument which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has just put to the Financial Secretary. I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that, if he looks at the result of last year's reduction, he will find that the reduction of the amount

collected was not in proportion to the reduction in the rate. I think in past experience it has always been found that when a duty has been reduced there has been an increase in consumption, and therefore to halve the total revenue by way of ascertaining the loss which would be occasioned by this Amendment is a fallacious proceeding.

There is one thing to which I wish to draw attention, and that is the general observation which the right hon. Gentleman made. He said he was afraid that his attitude during the next few days would be a continuous negative. That is an alarming and a disconcerting announcement to make, because it indicates to the Committee that, in relation to all these taxes, no matter how powerful the arguments are that we bring before the Committee, the right hon. Gentleman will only treat us with the smiling obduracy with which he has met this very reasonable Amendment. I would make an appeal to him that he should revise his attitude, and give us some hope that, at least in some of the other duties we may be discussing later on, he may consider the Amendments and offer us concessions.

Question put, "That the word 'eight' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 231; Noes, 165.

Division No. 196.]

AYES.

[9.29 p.m.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

Cassels, J. D.

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Fawkes, Major F. H.

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Forestier-Walker, L.

Astor, Viscountess

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Clarry, Reginald George

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Clayton, G. C.

Furness, G. J.

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Banks, Mitchell

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Ganzoni, Sir John

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Garland, C. S.

Barnston, Major Harry

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Gates, Percy

Becker, Harry

Cope, Major William

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

Goff, Sir R. Park

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Gretton, Colonel John

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North)

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Dalzlel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'I. W. D'by)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Halstead, Major D.

Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

Bruford, R.

Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Harrison, F. C.

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Harvey, Major S. E.

Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Hawke, John Anthony

Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

Ellis, R. G.

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Button, H. S.

Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Cadogan, Major Edward

Erskine- Bolst, Captain C.

Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

Morden, Col. W. Grant

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Morrison Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

Sandon, Lord

Hood, Sir Joseph

Murchison, C. K.

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Hopkins, John W. W.

Nesbitt, Robert C.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Shepperson, E. W.

Houlton, John Plowright

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A.

Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

Skelton, A. N.

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

Hudson, Capt. A.

Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

Hume, G. H.

Parker, Owen (Kettering)

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Hurd, Percy A.

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furn'ss)

Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley

Penny, Frederick George

Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Steel, Major S. Strang

Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Perring, William George

Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

Privett, F. J.

Titchfield, Marquess of

Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

Rae, Sir Henry N.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Tubbs, S. W.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Rankin, Captain James Stuart

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Lamb, J. Q.

Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

Wallace, Captain E.

Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

Waring, Major Walter

Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Watts, Dr, T. (Man., Withington)

Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

Remer, J. R.

Wells, S. R.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Remnant, Sir James

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Rentoul, G. S.

White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

Lorden, John William

Reynolds, W. G. W.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Lorimer, H. D.

Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

Wise, Frederick

Lougher, L.

Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Lynn, R. J.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill-(High Peak)

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Manville, Edward

Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Margesson, H. D. R.

Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isl'gt'n W.)

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

Yerburgh, R. D. T.

Mercer, Colonel H.

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.

Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

NOES.

Adams, D.

Ede, James Chuter

Hirst, G. H.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Irving, Dan

Ammon, Charles George

Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

Jarrett, G. W. S.

Attlee, C. R.

Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Falconer, J.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Barnes, A.

Foot, Isaac

Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

Gardiner, James

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Batey, Joseph

Gilbert, James Daniel

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Gosling, Harry

Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

Bonwick, A.

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Kirkwood, D.

Briant, Frank

Greenall, T.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Broad, F. A.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Lansbury, George

Brotherton, J.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Lawson, John James

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Leach, W.

Buckle, J.

Groves, T.

Lee, F.

Burgess, S.

Grundy, T. W.

Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

Guthrie, Thomas Maule

Lowth, T.

Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

Hall, F. (York. W. R., Normanton)

Lunn, William

Cape, Thomas

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Chapple, W. A.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

M'Entee, V. L.

Charleton, H. C.

Harbord, Arthur

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Clarke, Sir E. C.

Hardie, George D.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Harris, Percy A.

March, S.

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Hastings, Patrick

Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

Collins, Pat (Walsall)

Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

Middleton, G.

Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

Hayday, Arthur

Millar, J. D.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Darbishire, C. W.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

Morel, E. D.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Dudgeon, Major C. R.

Herriotts, J.

Mosley, Oswald

Duffy, T. Gavan

Hill, A.

Muir, John W.

Dunnico, H.

Hinds, John

Murnin, H.

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)

Trevelyan, C. P.

Nichol, Robert

Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

Turner, Ben

O'Grady, Captain James

Shinwell, Emanuel

Wallhead, Richard C.

Oliver, George Harold

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Paling, W.

Sitch, Charles H.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Smith, T. (Pontefract)

Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

Phillipps, Vivian

Snell, Harry

Welsh, J. C.

Ponsonby, Arthur

Snowden, Philip

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Pringle, W. M. R.

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Whiteley, W.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Richards, R.

Stephen, Campbell

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Riley, Ben

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Wintringham, Margaret

Ritson, J.

Sturrock, J. Leng

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

Sullivan, J.

Wright, W.

Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Royce, William Stapleton

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Salter, Dr. A.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Scrymgeour, E.

Thornton, M.

Mr. J. Robertson and Mr. Morgan Jones.

Sexton, James

Tillett, Benjamin

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 239; Noes, 160.

Division No. 197.]

AYES.

[9.38 p.m.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Hudson, Capt. A.

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Hume, G. H.

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

Hurd, Percy A.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley

Astor, Viscountess

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Ellis, R. G.

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Jedrell, Sir Neville Paul

Banks, Mitchell

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

Barnston, Major Harry

Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

Becker, Harry

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Fawkes, Major F. H.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Lamb, J. Q.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Forestier-Walker, L.

Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Lloyd-Grcame, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Furness, G. J.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

Ganzonl, Sir John

Lorden, John William

Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Garland, C. S.

Lorimer, H. D.

Bruford, R.

Gates, Percy

Lougher, L.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Goff, Sir R. Park

Lynn, R. J.

Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Manville, Edward

Butcher, Sir John George

Gretton, Colonel John

Margesson, H. D. R.

Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Mercer, Colonel H.

Button, H. S.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Cadogan, Major Edward

Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Halstead, Major D.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Cassels, J. D.

Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Morden, Col. W. Grant

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

Harrison, F. C.

Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Harvey, Major S. E.

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Hawke, John Anthony

Murchison, C. K.

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

Nesbitt, Robert C.

Clarry, Reginald George

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Clayton, G. C.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

Cope, Major William

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Parker, Owen (Kettering)

Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Pease, William Edwin

Craig, Capt. C. C. (Antrim, South)

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Hood, Sir Joseph

Penny, Frederick George

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Hopkins, John W. W.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North)

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Houfton, John Plowright

Perring, William George

Philipson, Mabel

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Thorpe, Captain John Henry

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

Titchfield, Marquess of

Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

Tubbs, S. W.

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Privett, F. J.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Wallace, Captain E.

Rae, Sir Henry N.

Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

Waring, Major Walter

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Sandon, Lord

Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Rankin, Captain James Stuart

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Wells, S. R.

Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

Shepperson, E. W.

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A.

White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

Reid, D, D. (County Down)

Skelton, A. N.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Remer, J. R.

Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

Wise, Frederick

Remnant, Sir James

Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Rentoul, G. S.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Reynolds, W. G. W.

Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furn'ss)

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill-(High Peak)

Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

Steel, Major S. Strang

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Yerburgh, R. D. T.

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.

Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isl'gt'n W.)

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

NOES.

Adams, D.

Harbord, Arthur

Ponsonby, Arthur

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Hardie, George D.

Pringle, W. M. R.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Harris, Percy A.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Attlee, C. R.

Hastings, Patrick

Richards, R.

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Barnes, A.

Hayday, Arthur

Riley, Ben

Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

Ritson, J.

Batey, Joseph

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Bonwick, A.

Herriotts, J.

Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hill, A.

Royce, William Stapleton

Briant, Frank

Hinds, John

Salter, Dr. A.

Broad, F. A.

Hirst, G. H.

Scrymgeour, E.

Brotherton, J.

Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

Sexton, James

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Irving, Dan

Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)

Buckle, J.

Jarrett, G. W. S.

Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

Burgess, S.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Shinwell, Emanuel

Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

Sitch, Charles H.

Cape, Thomas

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Smith, T. (Pontefract)

Chapple, W. A.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Snell, Harry

Charleton, H. C.

Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

Snowden, Philip

Clarke, Sir E. C.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Stephen, Campbell

Collins, Pat (Walsall)

Kirkwood, D.

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Lansbury, George

Sturrock, J. Leng

Darbishire, C. W.

Lawson, John James

Sullivan, J.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Leach, W.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Dudgeon, Major C. R.

Lee, F.

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Duffy, T. Gavan

Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Dunnico, H

Lowth, T.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Ede, James Chuter

Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Thornton, M.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

McLaren, Andrew

Trevelyan, C. P.

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Turner, Ben

Evans, Capt H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Wallhead, Richard C.

Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

March, S.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Falconer, J.

Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Foot, Isaac

Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

Gilbert, James Daniel

Millar, J. D.

Weir, L. M.

Gosling. Harry

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Welsh, J. C.

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Morel, E. D.

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Whiteley, W.

Greenall, T.

Mosley, Oswald

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Muir, John W.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Murnin, H.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Wintringham, Margaret

Groves, T.

Nichol, Robert

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Grundy, T. W.

O'Grady, Captain James

Wright, W.

Guthrie, Thomas Maule

Oliver, George Harold

Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Paling, W.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Phillipps, Vivian

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr. Ammon and Mr. Lunn.—Mr. Ammon and Mr. Lunn.

CLAUSE 2.—(Rebate from Excise Duty on Beer.)

(1) There shall, in respect of beer brewed in Great Britain or Northern Ireland on or after the first day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, be allowed the following rebate from the Excise Duty payable in respect thereof, that is to say:—

In the case of beer brewed by a brewer of beer for sale, for every thirty-six gallons of beer, of whatever original gravity, charged with duty and delivered from the brewery, a rebate of one pound, or where the duty payable in respect of thirty-six gallons of any beer so charged and delivered is less than two pounds and four shillings, a rebate equal to the amount by which that duty exceeds the sum of one pound and four shillings;

In the case of beer brewed by any brewer other than a brewer for sale, for every thirty-six gallons of worts of a specific gravity of one thousand and fifty-five degrees charged with duty a rebate of one pound and five shillings;

and so on in proportion for any difference in quantity.

(2) The Excise drawback payable on the exportation of any beer, or on the deposit thereof in a warehouse for exportation, from Great Britain or Northern Ireland as merchandise or for use as ships' stores, shall, unless it is shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise that no rebate has been allowed in respect of that beer under this Section, be reduced by an amount equal to the amount of the rebate allowable under this Section in respect thereof.

This Sub-section shall be deemed to have had effect as from the first day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-three.

(3) The Commissioners of Customs and Excise may make such Regulations as they consider necessary for the purpose of carrying this Section into effect, and in particular for the purpose of facilitating and controlling the calculation of the amount of the rebate to be allowed under this Section and with respect to the method of computing the quantity of the beer in respect of which rebate is to be allowed.

(4) If any person acts in contravention of or fails to comply with any Regulations made under this Section he shall, for each offence, be liable at the election of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise, either to an Excise penalty of one hundred pounds or to an Excise penalty equal to three times the amount of the rebate, which through the commission of the offence has been, or might have been, improperly obtained.

The first two Amendments to Sub-section (1) of Clause 2—after the word "rebate" ["the following rebate from the Excise Duty"] to insert the words "to the brewers and retailers," and after the word "rebate" ["a rebate of one pound"] to insert the words "to the brewers and retailers"—are really nugatory. They propose a rebate to the brewers and retailers. There is already a rebate to the brewers in the Clause, and there cannot be a rebate to the retailers.

On a point of Order. At an earlier stage in the discussions on the Finance Bill, I put down an Amendment to this effect which was not debated, but the point was incidentally raised by the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) on the Second Reading and, on that occasion, the Prime Minister said he had not anticipated that the point would be raised at that stage, but promised consideration of the matter at a later stage. For that reason I am particularly desirous of raising the matter now, and I may remind the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister of what he said on that occasion.

"Mr. BALDWIN: I shall be glad to look into the matter. I had no idea that this point was to be raised to-night. If the fact is as is suggested I think perhaps it requires investigation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th May, 1923; col. 180, Vol. 164.]

That refers to the question of whether or not the retailer was to get any benefit.

I see the hon. Member's point, but I think he can raise this argument on the Amendment which stands later in the name of the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb)—to insert the words:

"Provided that it shall be a condition of allowing such rebate that a reduction equivalent to one penny per pint in the sale price charged by the brewer to the retailer shall be made."

The words which the hon. Member proposes to move now are nugatory, and would have no effect whatever in practice.

To a further point of Order. I understand there will be an opportunity of raising this matter at a later stage, but these words are only effective as an Amendment if they precede Sub-section (3) of this Clause. I understand there would be an opportunity of raising it when considering Clause 3, but the machinery is provided under Subsection (3) of this Clause, and it is therefore essential, if my proposal is to be effective at all, that it should be raised as an Amendment at this stage.

Whatever argument the hon. Member, or any hon. Member, may wish to raise, he cannot do so on words which are meaningless.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "one pound" ["a rebate of one pound", and to insert instead thereof the words "fourteen shillings."

The proposal which the Government have made is that the duty on beer should be reduced by 24s. a barrel equivalent to 1d. per pint, and of that reduction the Exchequer is to bear £1 and the brewing industry 4s. The proposal which this Amendment makes is that the Exchequer should bear only 14s. and the brewing industry should bear 10s. I propose to put to the Prime Minister the exact reasons for arriving at this figure. We believe it well within the power of the brewing industry to bear a larger share of this reduction, and that they could well afford to pay 10s. on a barrel and yet remain one of the most prosperous and fortunately placed industries in the land. In order to show how we arrive at this sum may I remind the Prime Minister of the Budget in which the duty was increased and in which was put on the 1d. per pint which the right hon. Gentleman is now removing. It was in 1920 when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain) then Chancellor of the Exchequer increased the duty by 30s. and he said his object was particularly to obtain an extra contribution from the consumer to the extent of 1d. per pint. When the duty was increased at that time the then Chancellor of the Exchequer also stated that the object of increasing it was not only to obtain more from the consumer but more from the brewing industry as well. Figures were given in the last Debate on this subject showing the extraordinary and remarkable profits which the great brewing concerns have made.—[HON. MEMBERS: "No"]—which most of them have made, not only during the War when many businesses did so, but also since the War came to an end. I do not think in the last Debate there was any Member who spoke on behalf of the brewing industry and who ventured to deny the fact that these stupendous profits had been made since the end of the War.

That fact was present to the mind of the then Chancellor of the Ex- chequer in 1920, and as I say he stated that the purpose of increasing the tax was not only to get more from the consumer but to obtain for the State a larger share of the excessive profits which the brewing industry was making at the time. Beginning from there, I ask the Prime Minister to trace what happened. From that day to this the brewing industry have used the taxation which the Chancellor of the Exchequer at that time imposed, not to give a larger contribution to the State, but to make profit out of the tax itself. At that time the maximum specific gravity permitted for beer was 1,044 degrees, and the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he made his proposal, assumed in all his calculations that the beer would be kept up to that maximum. As the Prime Minister is aware, the brewing industry, alone almost among the industries of this country, has really a power of fiscal self-determination. As the Prime Minister pointed out in his last speech on this subject, by reducing the gravity of the beer, it is enabled for every degree of gravity by which the beer is reduced to obtain £2,000,000 for itself and to rob the Exchequer of a corresponding £2,000,000—to diminish the receipts of the Exchequer by a corresponding £2,000,000. The industry increased the price to the consumer, but it kept the specific gravity well below the 1,044 degrees which the Chancellor of the Exchequer anticipated, with the result that his calculations of yield were out by millions of pounds, and the brewing industry made millions of pounds which were not anticipated.

Let me take the case of the kind of beer which was largely quoted in the last Debate here, the beer at 6d. a pint. What happened in that case? The brewing industry increased the price by 1d., and by that means obtained an extra 24s. a barrel, but the average specific gravity of beer the year after the tax was imposed was only 1,035 degrees, on which the actual tax was only 19s. a barrel, so that they succeeded in making, out of the tax which was intended to obtain a larger share of their profits for the State, an extra profit of 5s. a barrel. That is the first source from which we argue that this increased contribution from the trade could be obtained. There is another source. In the last three years, since 1920, it is well-known that the price of brewing materials has been substantially diminished. The figures which I have taken out show that the price of malt has gone down about 40 per cent., barley about 50 per cent., and wages have been reduced by 10s. a week at the least, and yet it has made no difference to the price. In the cases of other industries, so far as I know all other industries, when there is a diminution in the cost of production, you expect a reduction of price, but in the case of the brewing industry, they make a profit not only out of taxation but out of a diminution in prices as well.

10.0 P.M.

In the last Debate on this subject it was stated, and it has been stated in trade papers, and I think the Prime Minister agreed in the last Debate on this subject, that these reductions in the price of the materials for brewing represented a diminution of at least 8s. a barrel. That figure was stated, and it was certainly not denied in the Prime Minister's statement when he referred to it. If you add that 8s. on to the profit that was made out of the tax of 1920, you get a sum which easily enables the trade to pay the 10s. towards the reduction which we propose. There is, as a matter of fact, another source of increase. I notice that the Prime Minister, in his speech on the Budget Resolution, stated that it was anticipated that this reduction in price would lead to an increase in the output, or an increase in consumption, of 2,000,000 barrels. There was a great deal heard in the last Debate about the overhead charges of the brewing industry, but that increase in consumption will lead to a diminution in these overhead charges, and give even another source of profit. For these reasons, our contention is that if you put these various items together, the brewing trade could easily pay 10s. instead of 4s. That would not even touch the excessive profit it was making before 1920, and which the Chancellor of the Exchequer at that time hoped to obtain, and would still leave it one of the most fortunate and prosperous industries that this country contains.

I would like to speak on this Amendment, not from the point of view of temperance, but from the point of view of the taxpayer. We know that when nearly everybody in the House wanted cheaper beer some hon. Members did not want it, and the Liberals very boldly put forward an Amendment asking not to have a reduction on beer. I am sorry to say a great many Members on the other side of the House did not follow them into the Lobby. This has nothing to do with the price of beer, and I want to speak about the point of having cheap beer. I think all food should be cheap, although beer is not a food, of course.

Why did you not vote for the reduction of the Tea Duty? It is only hypocrisy.

I myself regret very much that the Government did not see their way to reduce the duties on tea and sugar. I think it was a fatal mistake from the point of view of the women of the country, but they put forward reasons which they say they cannot get over. Here, however, is something they can get over. They can still give cheap beer to the consumer and save the taxpayer a great deal of money. According to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the brewers are now making exactly twice the profits they were making in 1913–14. We know that during the War a great many people who were selling things had to make profits, but there are very few profiteers who have gone on profiteering since the War. The brewers are unique in that respect. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury recently said that in 1913–14 the brewers' estimated profits were £9,907,000, and that in 1921–22 they were £17,550,000. The profits had practically doubled. As it has been shown, they can perfectly well make the brewers pay 8s. and the taxpayer 16s., and still the brewers would get exactly what they were making before the War. Surely, Mr. Prime Minister, that is enough for any profiteer! The Government are actually, by this Budget, giving profits to the brewers which are greater than pre-War profits. I do not see why the Government have not got a perfect right to say to the brewers: "You are doing so well; surely you can afford to reduce the price of your beer and go on with the pre-War profit." In this way, according to the Estimates, we would save about £3,000,000 to the taxpayer. The country is in dire need of money for all sorts of things. Surely it would be better from the Government's point of view, and from the country's point of view, to let that £3,000,000 go in education, housing, juvenile unemployment, and a thousand other things.

In tea or sugar. Let us leave tea and sugar out of it for the moment. I do not want to be talked to by hon. Members on the other side about beer; they are as rocky as any party in the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "You are rocky on tea!"]—they have not got a leg to stand on. I do appeal to the Government to explain to us why the brewers, of all people, should be let off. We know, perfectly well, that the brewers have got a sort of political organization that will bring pressure on all Governments. They bring it on parties—[HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] There is no party in this House which is free from the political pressure of the trade, and the brewers are not all confined to this side. There are some on the other side—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where are they?"] I appeal to those in charge, and I say, Do not let us let off the War profiteers. If there are two sets of people in the world whom everybody in England wants to get at, and catch, one is the War profiteer and the other is the political conscientious objector——

I must ask the Noble Lady to Confine herself to the subject of the rebate.

I have no more to say, except that I shall have to vote against the Government. I am sure many hon. Members on this side feel exactly as I do. It is not a question of cheaper beer, and we do not mind legitimate profits, but it is not legitimate for the brewers to have the same profits as they had in 1914.

I hope hon. Members will have the kindness to allow the Debate to proceed.

I am quite ready to give way to the hon. Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton), whose remarks are anticipated from the House, and if I had seen any previous sign of his rising I should certainly not have entered into competition with him. When I said a few words on this subject the last time it was before the House the Prime Minister considered that I had been unfair in remarks which I made to him. I object, I confess, to the whole of this transaction, and to the way in which it is carried through, as well as to the results which I anticipate from it. I had exhausted, at that time, my right to reply, but I think the right hon. Gentleman complained about me because I had accused him of having carried through this transaction in deference to an election pledge. I still think that in this Clause he is paying an election debt I admit that it was not a definite promise, but I will read the words which he used before the last Election. He said:

I think the Prime Minister has said, on one previous occasion—I do not know if I am doing an injustice to him—that he always sympathises with those who desire cheap beer. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Yes, Tory Governments revert to their type, and we are doubtless going to see in the future a relaxation of some of those alcoholic restrictions which have worked out into a marked reduction of drunkenness while they were in force. All that, no doubt, is going to be swept away. This year, it is, we understand, the turn of beer and cider, but I gather, from private assurances, that next year it is going to be the Spirit Duty; and that—I will not say promises—but that expectations have been made to the Members of Parliament in the industrial group, just as they were made, in the same sort of vague language, to the people who were working for the reduction in the taxation on beer. Ameliorative Measures are blanketed, as we saw last Friday, but the Prime Minister is doing what he can to encourage the consumption of alcoholic liquor. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] That is certain, and that is the result of this very reduction in taxation which we are discussing to-night. The Prime Minister has estimated that the increase in the beer consumption is to be a modest 10 per cent. as a result of this transaction. I believe that, just as his predecessor wrongly estimated the reduction, so he has wrongly estimated the reduction that will take place. Even in a time of slump, if you reduce the price by 14 per cent.—I do not think it will be merely 10 per cent.—this two and a third million gallons which he anticipates is to be the increase in the result of his transaction will probably be exceeded this year, and will almost certainly be exceeded as trade revives. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] Why not? For this reason, that, just in proportion as the consumption of beer increases in this country, so you get an increase in the convictions for drunkenness. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!" and "Question."] It is no use saying, "Question." If anyone knows the figures, and will look at them, he will see that as the consumption of beer falls, so the convictions for drunkenness fall in this country, and that, as the consumption of beer rises, so the convictions for drunkenness, with all the consequent social results, rise too. [HON. MEMBERS: "Whisky!"] On the contrary, it is the consumption of beer which does it.

On a point of Order. I understood that the Amendment was to reduce the rebate from £1 to 14s., and that it was not with a view to diminish the consumption of beer. I respectfully submit that the speech which the hon. Member has been delivering is wholly out of order.

If I have been out of order in dealing with the whole of this reduction, and with its effects, I should have been called to order, but I took the precaution of consulting the Chair as to the scope which I should be allowed on this Amendment. Much as the hon. and learned Member, doubtless, would like to interrupt remarks of this kind, I should like to assure him that the alcohol which produces these results in this country is consumed, as for 80 per cent., in beer, and only, I think, as for 15 per cent. in the form of spirits. The alcoholism and the convictions for drunkenness are greatest in regard to beer, the duty on which is going to be taken off. That is my first objection. We are going to have an increase in the consumption of alcohol, which I believe will have a very bad effect on the social condition of the country. Quite apart from that, there is the other objection, the fiscal or revenue objection, which I think has been put. If the Government is going to do this thing at all, they ought to have done it in a different way, and with more security that the revenue would not have suffered as it has done.

One of the things the Government ought to have secured is a greater share of these swollen profits, not by taxation on the barrel of beer, but by taxation by means of licence duties. The licence duties cannot be so easily passed on from the retailer to the consumer. On the other hand, if you are taxing on the barrel, on the standard barrel, that is to say, on a purely fictitious barrel of liquid of a certain gravity, it always remains in the hands of the liquor trade to pass on the taxation by diminishing the gravity of the beer. That was done during the War—[ Interruption. ] The Chancellor of the Exchequer put on a tax on the assumption that the specific gravity would be 1,004. It never approached that point, with the result that the trade made profit on the barrel and so on. That accounts for this immense increase in the profits. The profits have been estimated at £17,000,000. If the Chancellor is right in his estimate that the consumption next year is to be greater, the profit will be £19,500,000. I should have thought that the largest share would have been taken for the nation. These are monopoly profits.

To find an illustration of the way these profits have increased during the War, all you have to do is to attend the Compensation Courts when licences are being compensated after being taken away by the licensing justices. Before the War 10s. a barrel was given to the brewer. Now they claim, and their claim is conceded by the Inland Revenue, 15s. a barrel. That, when you work it out, shows a profit of £19,500,000 or £20,000,000 on the consumption estimated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be the consumption this year. What we said is likely to happen is happening at this very moment. For instance, one of the liquor trade papers in a quite recent issue is complaining that some brewers are paying to keep the promise made by the Government, or the trade and the Government, that the gravity of the beer should not be lowered as a result of the reduction in the duty. They claim one case where the beer was 1,004, whereas only on 16th May it was 1,038. That is the way in which the trade is always able to get the better of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Other complaints in the trade are being made. The brewers, instead of giving the 4s. to the retailer, as provided, are only giving 2s. in some cases and 2s. 9d. in others, and they are leaving the retailers to get the balance out of the consumer. Our case is that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made a better bargain with the liquor trade he would not merely have got his 4s. a barrel, which is equivalent to some £5,000,000, but he could have got more out of the trade.

We do not quite know what his arrangements were, but this is a description which was given two or three days before the Budget came out by a Birmingham brewer of the methods of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in dealing with the trade. One of the Birmingham brewers addressing the Women's Section of the Greater Birmingham Licensed Traders' Association said that a message had come from the Chancellor of the Exchequer asking how much the brewers could contribute towards a reduction in the price of beer to the consumers. This brewer said that up to now they had never heard of a Chancellor of the Exchequer asking the trade how much they could stand. This brewer said that he was able to tell them that the brewing trade was prepared to find several shillings per barrel towards the reduction, and that the Government was likely to be responsible for the balance in reduced taxation.

I quote that statement from the brewing trade itself, and that seems to me to be a singular method for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to adopt. Apparently he asked the brewing trade how much it would contribute, and they said several shillings. Afterwards they suggested 4s., and believing that the brewers might reduce the specific gravity if he asked for any more he accepted the terms which the brewing trade had offered. In these circumstances we want all the revenue we can get for the nation. The profits of the trade went up from £9,000,000 in 1913 to £19,500,000 in 1923. The cost of materials is about 8s. a barrel, that is to say about £10,000,000, and that is admitted. Out of that £10,000,000 the Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks he can get just half, that is £5,000,000. Besides this there have been heavy wage reductions. The trade has got the profits which it made during the last three years on the bad bargain made when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain) was Chancellor of the Exchequer. The price of beer, leaving out taxation, both pre-War and post-War, is just 100 per cent. more than it was pre-War. The compensation claim for licences which are reduced has risen from 10s. before the War to 15s. per barrel after the War.

If you take these facts together is it not pretty clear that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has got a very bad bargain and that he is sacrificing revenue which the nation needs, while at the same time he is encouraging the consumption of alcohol. I do not quite know whether the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is going to reply on this matter. I do not know whether it is fair to refer to his past, but I know that he will, if he does defend the duty, do it with that confident assurance with which he plunges into any political battle. I hope, however, there may be some latent feeling in his mind as to the social effects which are going to result from the policy of encouraging the consumption of alcohol which the Government is committed to, and it is for that reason that we on this side of the Committee, and I believe some hon. Members opposite, feel that there are grave social issues involved. We therefore ask the Government to consider whether the path they are now treading is right in the interests of the country as a whole, and whether they will take care not to proceed further along that path.

I hope the Committee will bear a little while with one who has the misfortune to have his family capital buried in these concerns. I am glad to hear the sympathetic cheers of hon. Members opposite. I was sure I should have from them that consideration which is usually extended to a New Member. May I first deal with the stupendous profits alleged to have been made by brewery concerns. They were given by the late Financial Secretary to the Treasury as in the year 1913–14 amounting to £9,970,000, and in the year 1921–22 amounting to £17,750,000, an increase of nearly 75 per cent. May I point out to the Committee that in 1913–14 the Income Tax was only Is. 2d. in the £, so that from the profits of £9,970,000 there fell to be deducted only a sum of £580,000, leaving for the proprietors a sum of £9,390,000; whereas in 1921–22 the Income Tax was 6s. in the £, and there was an Excess Profits Duty, quite rightly, of 60 per cent., so that there was deducted from these stupendous profits £5,325,000 for Income Tax and £3,500,000 for Excess Profits Duty, leaving the shareholders a sum of £8,925,000, or less than they received in profits in the year 1913–14. The revenue not only benefited by £8,250,000 more taxation, Excess Profits Duty, and so on, but also derived another £110,000,000 from the increased taxation of the beer itself.

I should also like to deal with the question of profiteering. It has been alleged that the trade ought to have reduced the price of beer a long time ago. May I point out that you can only reduce the price of beer by so many pence per pint? You cannot reduce it by a halfpenny, because, since so much beer is sold in half-pints, you would get into farthings. A penny a pint is 24s. a barrel. In 1921–22 the bulk barrelage of the United Kingdom was 30,178,731, so that 24s. on that would mean £36,214,477, a sum which is a great deal more than any of the alleged profits of brewery companies. May I, further, remind the Committee that the Government themselves are the owners of breweries in Carlisle, and, if it had been possible to reduce the price of beer to the consumer, surely it would have been a good point for His Majesty's Government to have done it at Carlisle. It is true, as has been said by several hon. Members, that there has been a decrease in the cost of production. There has been a decrease in the cost of malt, not much in the cost of hops—it is only this year, I think, that a reduction has occurred—and the price of sugar has varied very much; just now it is very high. It is fair to say that that reduction represents 8s. a barrel, and I am quite prepared to admit that. It will be seen that 8s. a barrel, on the aforesaid figure of 30 million odd, would come to £10,000,000 or £12,000,000 and, as I have said, you could not reduce the price of beer by a penny a pint on that.

What have the brewers done? They have given the public a great deal more than that £10,000,000 or £12,000,000, for they have steadily increased the gravity of the beers that they have brewed. Hon. Members have only to look at the Excise returns to see for themselves. In 1918–19 we were under control, and the average gravity was low, but in 1919–20 the average gravity was 1039 and in 1922–23 it was 1043½, so that the public are getting the benefit of from 4 to 4½ degrees of gravity in the better beer. I do not suppose I am letting out any secret when I say that you may take the cost of a degree of gravity at somewhere about 2s. 6d.—it may be a little under at present—so that hon. Members will see that the brewers have put 10s. in value into every barrel of beer, and, therefore, as I have said, the public are getting more benefit than the decrease in cost of production would warrant. One hon. Member referred to what happened when the late Chancellor of the Exchequer increased the Beer Duty. At that time the whole trade was under control, and when that 30s. was put on, the Food Controller made an Order that all the degrees at which beer was sold at that time should be increased by one or two degrees, so that the revenue benefited by a very considerable increase in duty. In 1919–20 the Excise were collecting 40s. duty on every bulk barrel of beer. In 1920 they collected 71s. In 1922–23 the Revenue cleared 80s. a bulk barrel. I hope I have cleared the trade from the charge of profiteering which has been flung at them.

The hon. Member who has just sat down seemed to think the trade were rejoicing in this Budget. He is labouring under a misapprehension. The Budget is going to inflict a very heavy charge upon the brewing trade. The brewing trade has no quarrel with the retail trade. We can settle our own disputes if we have any. I have a letter in my pocket from the retail trade. They are perfectly satisfied with the arrangements made with the wholesale trade, and I believe they have written to the Prime Minister to that effect. We can settle our own difficulties and do not want them brought to the Floor of the House. It is an entirely novel idea of reduction of taxation when the producing trade is asked to find some part of the reduction. I am not aware that the same point was put to the tea or the cocoa trade last year, but the brewing trade are asked to shoulder a liability amounting to £5,250,000, which is equal to about 4 per cent. of the ordinary capital in brewery companies; nor can they get that back by any decrease in the cost of production by reducing the gravity because they have given their word—and the brewing trade keep their word—to the Prime Minister that the gravity shall be maintained at the same level it was when he made the arrangement with them for the rebate. I am afraid the result of this Budget may be the disappearance of some of the smaller firms, because it is a very heavy charge. In my own case it amounts to £26,000 a year reduction of profits. A great many of the small firms will not be able to shoulder the charge and there will be an increase of amalgamations and, consequently, I am afraid, a reduction of employment. I hope I have done such justice as is possible to the trade I represent. I was not born in it. I tumbled into it. In the past there have been many distinguished members of the trade in the House. I think they all sat on the Liberal Benches. The names of Whitbread, Bass, Stansfield and Fuller will occur to many hon. Members nowadays, in spite of what the Noble Lady has said, most hon. Members interested in the brewing trade sit on this side.

I find it necessary to intervene in the Debate although I shall only be responsible for my own views on the subject. There are a number of newfound champions of the oppressed who have become denunciatory so far as profiteering is concerned. How long is it since the Noble Lady, the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) got up to decry profiteering? How long is it since the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. C. Roberts) got up to denounce profiteering? Running through their arguments was the principle of prohibition.

The Noble Lady has not even the manners of the average house-wife. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"] There is nothing to withdraw. If the Noble Lady would only cultivate her temperament it would perhaps be to the advantage of herself and those who have to sit and listen to her. The demand, whether this Committee believes it or not, came from the general body of workers who are beer consumers, for a cheaper beer, and not for a beer of less gravity, but for a beer of a much higher gravity. If the argument is that there is to be not a £1 reduction in the tax but only 14s., and if the purpose of that is to push prohibition by making those in the industry reduce the gravity again to anything like 38 or 39, in order to meet the difference between the £1 and the 14s., I will not be a party to any such thing. Those who cry out and talk of the degradation that enters the homes because of the consumption of beer ought to look in other directions, and they will see a greater amount of degradation and misery brought about by sweating conditions. Many of those who hypocritically denounce beer are concerned in firms which impose these harsh, degrading conditions upon those who work under them. We are not going to get prohibition by these means. I speak because I represent a large number of brewery workers who are members of my trade union. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Yes, and I can speak honestly on their behalf without innuendoes being made that I am in any way supporting brewers. I am not supporting the brewers. [An HON. MEMBER: "Question!"] The hon. Member can question, but I think my record of negotiations and my record of life will stand as much investigation as that of the hon. Member who flings such an innuendo at me. If one cannot express an opinion without narrow-minded folk harbouring thoughts that do them no credit, and imputing motives, it is time they sought some other occupation, than that of representing the people in this House. I should like the £1 reduction to be coupled with an assurance that there is to be no reduction in gravity, but rather an increase to 1,050, or even to 1,070, which it was in the good old brewing days. I am going to support another Amendment that none of the 4s. should be passed on to the retailer, who, I believe, is a victim of the brewing interest.

Be logical. We had enough difficulty in fighting the brewers, but I am pleased to say that the wages of those whom I represent are at least 200 per cent. better than before the War, but if sources have to be tapped to make up this difference, what sources will be tapped? Will it be the standard of living of the employés, the profits of the retailer or a reduction in the gravity? The latter would cause more discontent than any thing else to the beer-consuming public, though it may cause joy to those who think that by taxing beer, when they dare not openly advocate Prohibition——

I have had a long experience with a most charming lady and a companion who is more congenial to me than the Noble Lady. Having said that, I shall vote against the Amendment and for the £1 coming off the tax.

I wish to refer to this matter in correlation with what the last speaker has said. This is one of the heaviest burdens on a mass of working people who readily pay, in the price of the commodity itself, a huge amount of taxation, practically without making any serious protest. What we are now discussing is simply the allocation of the reduction of duty which is proposed by the Government—what the brewer is to allow and what the Government are to allow. We are faced with the fact that this seems to give some anxiety to Members of this House who more or less represent what is called the temperance movement. I do not think there is much difficulty in understanding that situation. In all the Measures with which we are familiar from the temperance standpoint there is no attack made upon the brewers or the distillers. It is all a question of attacking, in some degree or other—by restriction, or control, or some kind of interference—the man who is only a retail dealer. If this House decides on a continuation of the policy whereby these concoctions are to be served, absolutely irrespective of the scientific evidence condemnatory thereof, it must acknowledge in all fairness that the retail dealers have a most extraordinarily difficult task and duty to discharge. The hon. Member for North Kensington (Mr. Gates) said that the brewers, distillers, and such like, have no conflict with the retail dealers. I dare to say that those retail dealers are not allowed to have any conflict with the manufacturers. These men are under the embargo of the tied-house system, whereby, from my own personal knowledge and information given to me, they have passed through great hardships and extraordinary injustices imposed upon them by the brewers and distillers.

I am not concerned with the question of whether you are going to raise the taxation or reduce it. It is an immorality on the part of any Government to continue a system which, by irrefutable evidence, cannot produce anything else but disastrous results in every section of life. In order to try, in some degree, to lighten our feeling of regret, we say, "Well, the thing cannot be helped; the best we can do is to take from its manufacture and sale some portion of the profits that are available." An hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench of the Opposition was advocating here this very night the idea that we should increase the duties on the licence, actually advocating a higher licence system that, so far as I know, in the generality of bodies representative of the temperance movement, has all along been condemned. It has also been suggested that we should increase the taxation. Because the more you have increased it the more you have accentuated temperance reform. On the other hand, you have here today the idea, of appealing for a reduction, because it would mean something to working-class people. We are asked to consider the sweated conditions. As a Labour representative I do consider the sweated conditions. I consider not only those, but every other set of conditions spoken of in the range of politics. As a matter of fact, you find the most formidable indictment of the very working people who are concerned, or allow themselves to be concerned, about this question, in that they practically hand over, by means of the man who represents the trade in its retail capacity, this huge sum of taxation, with practically no challenge to the thing at all.

11.0 P.M.

An hon. Gentleman said that he had no difficulty in avowing himself as directly representative of the brewers. We can respect a man who says that he represents the trade, or the man who says, "I represent those in the trade in the sense that I represent those who are working in a body known as a trade union." There is the question of the difficulties in the way of old age pensions. It is suggested in a circular I have here that that reform would amount to only about one-third of two of the principal moves that the Government is making now for the alleviation of taxation on the basis of income and of this particular basis of which we are speaking now. Yet you have it that the workers themselves, irrespective of what you may say concerning sweated conditions, old age pensions, or anything else, raise no objection, no protest, and the money is handed in quite freely, absolutely regardless of any of the consequences. I am here to say that if you are to face this question of taxation you cannot do so by going into the Lobby on the one side or the other in a matter of this kind. The real issue with which you are confronted here is that you are consenting to the sustenance of the system. You have no right to turn round and blame the brewer. You have agreed that there is to be the brewing of beer. You have agreed that it shall be a matter of making profit. Every part of the House agrees to the production of the thing and the sale thereof. What case, then, have you? There is no man associated with an abstinence movement or a prohibition movement who can go into the Lobby and vote on the question of regulating the system for taxing a thing which, by itself, by the sustenance of the Government, is backing every force that stands for the breaking of the law, for the shattering of every move in the realm of social or economic reform. You are backing every force in this country that stands for adversity instead of prosperity. You may talk about building up your Empire, but the very fact that you are now asking Members on both sides of the House to vote on this question, is proof positive that you are in the depths of a national system of licensed immorality, and you are pledging yourselves anew to the carrying on of that system by the exaction of revenue from this prolific source of income.

This Debate for some time past seems to have developed into a Pussyfoot campaign, and has not dealt with the Amendment before the Committee. One felt almost inclined to think, on listening to the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. C. Roberts) making his base- less suggestions and insinuations to the Prime Minister as to the way Government has been carried on, that it would possibly be a good thing if the Government were to resign, seeing that we have such a Heaven-born Chancellor of the Exchequer facing us on the other side ready to put forward and to realise proposals which would bring us in all the revenue our present Prime Minister and Chancellor of the Exchequer are trying to secure to-day. I think the Prime Minister based his calculation of consumption on normal people, but had he looked at the hon. Member for Derby when he made that calculation, quite possibly he would have reduced the amount of his estimate. I think it is absolutely wrong that hon. Members should go against the brewers in the manner which we have seen adopted to-night. The brewer is quite entitled to make profits as well as the people of any other trade, and if he makes a substantial profit, the country derives revenue from it, and for that reason alone, I hope he will continue to do so. I did not intend to speak at all to-night, but I was so incensed by the baseless suggestions put forward by the hon. Member for Derby that I felt I must get up and say a word on behalf of the Government.

Having listened to the whole of this Debate, I am a little hazy as to what it has been about, but I gather that this Amendment is confiscation and I hope hon. Members opposite will take some consolation from the obvious evidence we have had that any Amendment dealing with confiscation will find its opponents even on this side of the House. Confiscation is a very serious charge to make against any party, and I would put in a plea to show that the Amendment cannot rightly be charged with this awful crime. This Amendment does not affect the price of beer in the least; it merely takes six shillings per barrel more out of the pockets of the brewer. We have had pleas from hon. Members opposite about the state of the brewing industry, and so pathetic were those pleas that I felt compelled to procure the Stock Exchange Year Book to look into the matter. The hon. Member for North Kensington (Mr. Gates) made one of those pathetic pleas. He said his breweries had been doing badly. I observe that one did not do very well, while the hon. Member was there, but he left it and went to another; and I look up the Lion Brewery, and I find it is not doing so badly. The Lion Brewery, under the hon. Member's able vice-chairmanship, does very well. Here is the Hon. In 1912, which was before the hon. Member joined it, it paid 4 per cent. In 1921 it was 15 per cent. including a bonus of 5 per cent. That is not so bad—nearly four times as much as in 1912. You cannot really complain, much as the hon. Member says you have to consider Income Tax being higher. That is true, but we all have to pay higher Income Tax, and a brewing company which increases its dividends from 4 to 15 per cent. does not seem to me to be in need of charity exactly. I turn to Bass, Ratcliffe & Gretton. Take Bass! A paltry 8 per cent. in 1912 before the war, and now 11 per cent.

Not such a big rise, the hon. and gallant Member says, but he does not know his Stock Exchange Year Book as well as I do. They increased their capital by 50 per cent. in the period, so that when you say 11 per cent.—It is no use the hon. and gallant Member shaking his head. He knows the facts of his own company better than I do, but here is the statement in the Stock Exchange Year Book that you added 50 per cent. to your capital.

Exactly. Of course, the debentures go on as usual, and they find the extra Income Tax all right. The ordinary share dividend has gone up from 8 per cent. to 11 per cent. on a capital increased by 50 per cent. That means to say that instead of 11 per cent., you have to consider it as being 16½ per cent. The dividend on Bass has more than doubled, but in addition to that, the hon. Member for North Kensington should know that the shareholders paid the Income Tax in 1914, and they get it free of Income Tax now that it is doubled. You can go through the whole of them. [An HON. MEMBER: "Have a Guinness now."] The dividends from Guinness are too much for a mere mortal to contemplate without envy, and I have to refuse to buy shares in brewery companies owing to my regretable views. Alsopps have recovered their position in the world. They were once at 10, and are now at 54. Shares which had no hope of ever seeing a dividend again have found themselves upon their feet, and living, I may add, on the unfortunate people who consume their beer. These are the people against whom we are charged with predatory intentions. Our intentions merely extend to asking them to get back to pre-War level. Get back to your pre-War level. Pay it, if you like, free of Income Tax, but do not go on fleecing the beer drinker of this country to the extent to which you are doing it now.

We ask that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should drive a hard bargain with the one solitary trade which has managed to make money not only in the War, but since the War. Instead of driving a hard bargain, he has, apparently, accepted whatever terms they offered him. Apparently, he has assumed the position, not of a tax gatherer, but of a petitioner; he is begging them to reduce as much as they can, and they have consented to reduce 4s. We want the other 6s., and we believe that if we could get that other 6s. out of the brewery companies' hands, we should not be spoliating the brewery companies, we should not be guilty of confiscation, but we should be guilty of elementary justice, and we should be getting back to a state of honest dealing between the Government, the trade, and the public.

I will try to confine my remarks, despite what has been said during this discussion, to the subject of the Amendment before the Committee. This is a business question, and I would remind the Committee of what they may not be aware—and it rather surprised me when I first learned it—that this is the first occasion on which a reduction of the Beer Duty has been brought before a Committee of the House of Commons. The Beer Duty remained stationary for very many years, subject to slight increases, as time went on. During the War, of course, enormous increases took place, and this is the first time that a change downward has been made. So, in a way, we have a new problem to consider. I do not think I need say anything before this Committee about one line of argument which has been used, namely, that it is immoral to make a reduction in this particular Duty, because no Government in this country, so far, has held the view that taxation should be used to penalise trades which are deemed by the Government or any section of the community to be carrying on an immoral trade. Taxation is imposed for revenue purposes, and taxation must be judged from that point of view. Each tax that has been raised to a great height during the war deserves fair consideration, as and when opportunity may allow, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the time being, and by the Committee of the House of Commons, to see whether it is possible to reduce it for the benefit of the consumer. It was for this reason alone that, in due course, beer came up for review, and it has been one of the subjects selected for a reduction of taxation this year.

When it was decided to reduce the taxation on beer, one or two problems presented themselves. In the first place, had a reduction been made of a fixed amount per standard barrel—which is the way in which the successive rises were put on beer—it would have been probably impossible to have ensured by any means an adequate reduction in the price to the consumer, added to an understanding, or guarantee, or whatever you like to call it, that the gravity of beer would not be impaired; because, with a fixed rate of duty to the standard barrel, the duty falls with a greater weight on those who brew the cheaper beer, and makes it more difficult for them to effect a reduction which is comparatively easy to make by those who brew beer of a higher gravity. Control, of course, had gone off. During War-time, and only during War-time, the trade in liquor was1 controlled. It was controlled, and the retail prices were also controlled. No attempt had ever been made of which I am aware, except during the War-time, and during the period of the control, to correlate in any degree the taxation and the retail price. During the War people had become accustomed to this inter-relation of taxation and retail prices, and it seemed to me very desirable, if it were possible, although control had been removed, that, on this occasion, for the first time on which a reduction of the beer duty was made, if practicable, I should ensure that the benefit of that reduction should directly reach the consumer.

I had two objects at which to aim—the protection of the revenue, as far as I could arrange it, and that the consumer similarly should be protected—protected both in price and in the quality of the liquor which he consumed. Now there are no means at all by which these results could have been attained by legislation, unless the Government had gone back to the strictest system of control. I think any measure of that kind would have been very strongly opposed probably in all quarters of the House, and it would have been practically impossible in this House to have got the necessary legislation through. So I had no alternative but to make no attempt on the one hand, and on the other hand to make an attempt by negotiation and negotiation only with the trade.

I need hardly say, in passing, that the extract quoted from a press which I do not read, but which has been consulted by the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. C. Roberts) does not contain an extraordinarily accurate account of what took place. It is not an easy matter in a negotiation on so difficult and complicated a matter as this, to bring about a successful agreement, and whatever figure I had finally arranged undoubtedly would have been open to attack. If you are making an agreement of this nature, where you certainly get a good deal given to you, you require to have a complete protection of the consumer in regard to price and the quality of the goods he purchases. I secured these two things, and I consider they are of considerable value to the consumers of the country. I have also got a sum for the relief of the taxpayer from the trade which amounts to something over £5,000,000 in the year. Many hon. Members said I should have arranged to get a great deal more. It is perfectly true I do not dispute it for a moment—that there are breweries which could have afforded a larger reduction than that to which they agreed, but it is equally true that there are breweries in the country which could not have afforded it, and these breweries are chiefly the breweries that brew the cheapest kinds of beer, on which it would have been the most difficult to get an equivalent reduction to that given on higher-priced beers. If I may so put it to my hon. Friends opposite, the difficulty is this. First, as a flat rate reduction in wages may not scarcely interfere with the income of a working man in receipt of high wages, so that flat rate of reduction, if applied equally to all grades, high-priced and low, may be more to the man in receipt of low wages who cannot possibly stand it being taken off his wages. It is exactly the same with the breweries. If you have an agreed figure applicable over all the breweries, you must take something less than the most successful of them can afford, to make it equitable all round.

What have I taken? It has been stated I think in an answer given by my right hon. Friend (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks) to a question in the House, that the brewery profits for the last ascertained year were something like £17,000,000, which I am told works out at about 11s. 8d. a barrel on the then existing output. The amount I have received is four shillings, and four shillings from 11s. 8d. is, in my view, an overhead surrender of a very fair sum to have been given up, taking one class of brewery with another.

I know there have been many statements in the Press showing, or attempting to show, that the brewing trade has done extraordinarily well lately, and that it ought to have surrendered a great deal more. But it is only fair to remember, when figures are quoted showing how much brewery costs have come down, that until quite recently many brewers have been and some even now are still working out higher priced stocks of the days of high prices. Even if that were not so—even if we eliminated all that, and assumed that savings are being made on the scale suggested—we still have to remember, on the other side, that for the last two years the average gravity of beer brewed in this country has risen to an extent that has put the cost up 3s. or 4s. per barrel, if not higher. Therefore an equal amount has to be put on to the cost of the beer, while the very heavy drop in consumption, following the bad trade from which we have suffered in the same period, has increased the overhead charges and consequently, in that way, the cost of the beer. It is quite possible there will be some increase in the quantity of beer brewed after the reduction of the duty, but I do not think I have over-estimated the moderate figure which I have given, because it is unlikely, that until the spending power of the community increase, we shall see a larger growth in the total than that which I indicated at the time of the introduction of the Budget. A slight increase, such as I have foreshadowed, would, of course, pro tanto be to the advantage of the brewer, but the fact remains that, whether the profits remain where they are now, or whether they be slightly increased over and above the small increase which is anticipated in the consumption—whatever they be, they will be five and quarter millions less than they would have been had this agreement not been made.

I do not know of any other points which I can usefully add. I will only say, in conclusion, that I set out to do the best I could for the taxpayer, and to ensure fair treatment, both as regards price and quality for the consumer. I am quite convinced I have obtained the second of my points, and I believe I have made as fair and square a bargain as was possible under the circumstances with regard to the first. I hope very much that the Committee will not reject the figure which has been arrived at because, of course, the whole agreement stands or falls by that figure. I honestly believe that, if the figure embodied in this Amendment were dissected, it would be found to be a figure which could not possibly be borne by the whole brewing trade, and as such it would, if it were adopted, do a very great injustice to a large section of the consumers.

I have listened to the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with great attention, and I still regret that he should not have given priority in the remission of taxation to food, which both economically and commercially affects the well-being of the community, but should have given the advantage to an article which has an exactly opposite effect. No doubt the remission of the Beer Duty is a result of the pressure which the trade have brought to bear on the Government. We are told it will prove popular with working men. No doubt it will with some, but I would ask will it be popular with working men's wives? If they are asked whether they would prefer a reduction of the duty on beer or of the tax on food, I do not think there is any question as to what their answer will be. It is the housewife who has to spend the money and to make the weekly wage go as far as possible. She realises the difficulty of the task and she will consider it absolutely indefensible that thirteen million pounds should be remitted of the taxation on beer.

On a point of Order. The hon. Member has on the Paper an Amendment to leave out Clause 2. I submit that the arguments she is now advancing would be more in order on that Amendment. I do not object to the hon. Member making her speech now, but if she does make it, I take it there will be no further debate on the Amendment to leave out the Clause.

Has not the debate been allowed to range over a wide field on the understanding that the Amendment under discussion was to be treated as the principal Amendment?

It was understood that there should be a wide discussion on the Amendment, and that consequently there should not be any discussion on the Amendment to leave out the Clause.

We have been discussing a certain specific Amendment, on which we want to take a Division. The Amendment of the hon. Member for Louth (Mrs. Wintringham) has nothing to do with the reduction of the tax or rebate on beer.

Is it in the power of the Chair to rule there should be no discussion on the Question "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," regardless of what Amendments may be moved?

It is quite in Order for the Chair, after there has been a full and wide discussion on a previous Amendment, and on the actual Amendment before the Committee, to rule out further discussion on subsequent Amendments.

Is it not the case that on the previous Clause you gave no ruling of that sort, but that there was an understanding—which is a very different thing—with the Members moving the Amendment; and would it not be a very serious thing if the Chair took to ruling that the discussion on an Amendment on a particularly narrow question, such as this, could be extended to a general Debate? I would ask whether we are justified in allowing a general discussion on this Amendment, and thereby debarring the Committee from a discussion and a Division on a specific Amendment?

On the previous Clause, I gave a ruling exactly on the lines of the one that I am now giving. It would be quite impossible, and we should never get on, if we were to have the same discussion over again.

On the point of Order. First of all, may I submit to you that it is only now for the first time that any suggestion has been made that the argument in this Debate has gone beyond the precise terms of the Amendment? [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] It is the first time that that has been suggested. It is the first time that any effort has been made on behalf of the Government to narrow the discussion, and consequently I am surely entitled to submit to you that no occasion has arisen for the Government to intervene. In the second place, may I submit that the Prime Minister himself expressly limited his speech to a reply on the specific questions raised by the Amendment, and, if we are not to have a reply from the Government on the general question, but only on the specific question, I submit that we are entitled to have a general discussion on the principle of the tax when you put the question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Had I not understood that the general discussion was going to take place on this particular Amendment, I should have had to rule several of the speeches out of Order.

I am quite prepared to go to a Division on this, but I want to know whether the speech I intended to make on the general question—[ Interruption ]—will be in order on the question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill". I am quite prepared to go to a Division now.

The general discussion having been taken on this Amendment, the hon. Member's speech would be out of order.

I am afraid that it is my fault. I was rather led away by my anxiety to see that the hon. Member for Louth (Mrs. Wintringham) was not interrupted. I must confess that I was called out of the Committee at the beginning of the discussion on this Amendment, and I am informed that I was quite wrong, and that there was no understanding about a general discussion. I apologise if I misled you.

I cannot alter my decision that there has been a full discussion on the Amendment.

I have been in the Committee all the time, and there has been no sort of understanding between the Benches or through the Whips, nor has there been any sort of declaration from the Chair that the discussion on this Amendment was to be taken as the general discussion on the Clause. I would beg you to let us have a Division on this now, and continue the discussion on the Clause at very short length—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]—just as we did on the last Clause. We then had a general discussion on one Amendment, and afterwards a short discussion on the Clause, and I hope the same procedure will be adopted in the present case.

I should be the last person in the world to lengthen the Debate this evening, but, as the Debate, previously, to my mind, did extend over the full matter, I ventured to make the speech which I should have made on the Question of the Clause standing part. I was saying that the effect of a remission of this tax on the working woman who had to make the weekly budget go as far as possible was a very important thing. A woman's work in the home is to make the weekly budget go as far as possible, and she has to make the very best of that money. She realises that if the money expended on beer is not used for constructive purposes but for a wasteful purpose and if the £13,000,000 is remitted, it is indefensible. Last year we were asked to save £9,000,000 on education. The wife looks at the relative values, and thinks that £9,000,000 had to be cut off education, and now £13,000,000 in tax is to be remitted from beer. She accepted last year's reduction because she thought the situation was desperate; now she finds the need is not so desperate. No doubt the increased consumption of beer will cause more drunkenness. In 1919, when the average amount drunk per head was 17 gallons the convictions were 58,000. In 1920, when the amount drunk was increased to 20 gallons, the convictions were nearly doubled—95,000. In 1921, when there was a reduction to 18 gallons per head, the convictions were reduced to 77,000, which shows that increased drinking causes increased convictions, and the more drunkenness there is the more social misery there is, and the more social misery there is the more unhappy homes and also the less money to spend in constructive things, which means less employment, and for that reason I deplore the decision to remit the taxation of £13,000,000 in beer.

I think there has been a little misunderstanding. It will be for the general convenience of the Committee if we could divide on the Amendment now, and have a discussion on the Clause.

On a point of Order. If we have a Division now, will a discussion be permitted on the Amendment to leave out Clause 2?

Naturally, I could not prevent a short discussion. All I could do would be to confine hon. Members to what is in order, and not allow repetition.

I want something to be said at this stage, rather than wait for the discussion on the Clause, so that hon. Members around me may know exactly where I stand on this matter. I speak for myself. Like many other hon. Members, I promised the electors that I would seek to cheapen the beer to the workers. Hon. Members who gave that pledge have short memories. Other people have been relieved of burdens. The Income Tax has been reduced from 6s. to 4s. 6d., and we must insist that the tax placed upon the beer of the workers shall be reduced to an equal extent, especially having regard to the fact that their wages have been reduced and their means for getting recreation and even a glass of beer have been reduced. On the head of the brewers rests much of the discontent that has arisen on this question, for every time taxes have been increased the brewers have got more than the amount of the tax out of the beer. They had either taken it in pounds, shillings and pence, or they had taken it by reducing the standard of the beer. Now they must give fully what they were entitled to give. He did not believe the argument that this would increase drunkenness. Examination of the figures proved that he was right. From 1905 to 1911, without either increase or decrease of the beer duty, drunkenness fell very much. In the County of Durham it fell from 133 to 50 per thousand. There is no guarantee that the consumer is going to get what the Chancellor said he should get or what he would get if

we had control. If one had spoken from these benches in favour of control there would have been a howl from the benches opposite, but there must come some control. The brewers have done well. At least 75 per cent. of them have done exceedingly well during the War, and the large concerns have charged bigger prices than the small concerns. I am glad to say that we have co-operative breweries in this country, and small concerns, who have done better for the consumer than other breweries have done or can do. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"]

Question put, "That the words 'one pound' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 246; Noes, 127.

Division No. 198.]

AYES.

[11. 50 p.m.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

Cope, Major William

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

Hood, Sir Joseph

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Hopkins, John W. W.

Apsley, Lord

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North)

Houfton, John Plowright

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Hudson, Capt. A.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Dixon, Capt. H. (Belfast, E.)

Hughes, Collingwood

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Hume, G. H.

Banks, Mitchell

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

Ednam, Viscount

Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Barnston, Major Harry

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor)

Becker, Harry

Ellis, R. G.

Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Fawkes, Major F. H.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Lamb, J. Q.

Blundell, F. N.

Forestier-Walker, L.

Lane-Fox, Lieut-Colonel G. R.

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Leach, W.

Brass, Captain W.

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Furness, G. J.

Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

Garland, C. S.

Lougher, L.

Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Gates, Percy

Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

Bruford, R.

Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

Lynn, R. J.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Gould, James C.

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Manville, Edward

Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Margesson, H. D. R.

Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Butcher, Sir John George

Gretton, Colonel John

Mercer, Colonel H.

Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Butt, Sir Alfred

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

Button, H. S.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Cadogan, Major Edward

Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W. D'by)

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Halstead, Major D.

Morden, Col. W. Grant

Cautley, Henry Strother

Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Harrison, F. C.

Murchisen, C. K.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

Harvey, Major S. E.

Nall, Major Joseph

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Hawke, John Anthony

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Hayday, Arthur

Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

Clarry, Reginald George

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Clayton, G. C.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

Cobb. Sir Cyril

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

O'Grady, Captain James

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Paget, T. G.

Parker, Owen (Kettering)

Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Pease, William Edwin

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Penny, Frederick George

Russell, William (Bolton)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Thorpe, Captain John Henry

Perring, William George

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Titchfield, Marquess of

Philipson, Mabel

Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Tubbs, S. W.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Sexton, James

Wallace, Captain E.

Privett, F. J.

Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

Wells, S. R.

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Shepperson, E. W.

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Rankin, Captain James Stuart

Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A.

White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

Skelton, A. N.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

Winterton, Earl

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Wise, Frederick

Remer, J. R.

Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furn'ss)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Remnant, Sir James

Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Rentoul, G. S.

Stanley, Lord

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Reynolds, W. G. W.

Steel, Major S. Strang

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

Yerburgh, R. D. T.

Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson and Lieut.-Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Lieut.-Colonel Gibbs.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isl'gt'nW)

NOES.

Adams, D.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Pringle, W. M. R.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Harbord, Arthur

Rae, Sir Henry N.

Astor, Viscountess

Hardie, George D.

Riley, Ben

Attlee, C. R.

Harris, Percy A.

Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

Barnes, A.

Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

Batey, Joseph

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

Royce, William Stapleton

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Saklatvala, S.

Berkeley, Captain Reginald

Hill, A.

Salter, Dr. A.

Bonwick, A.

Jarrett, G. W. S.

Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Sinclair, Sir A.

Briant, Frank

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Snell, Harry

Broad, F. A.

Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

Snowden, Philip

Brotherton, J.

Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

Buckle, J.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Sturrock, J. Leng

Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

Sullivan, J.

Cape, Thomas

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Chapple, W. A.

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Charleton, H. C.

Kirkwood, D.

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Clarke, Sir E. C.

Lansbury, George

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Lawson, John James

Thornton, M.

Collins, Pat (Walsall)

Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

Tout, W. J.

Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

Lowth, T.

Trevelyan, C. P.

Darbishire. C. W.

McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

Turner, Ben

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Duffy, T. Gavan

M'Entee, V. L.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Dunnico, H.

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

Ede, James Chuter

March, S.

Weir, L. M.

Edge, Captain Sir William

Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

Welsh, J. C.

Edmonds, G.

Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Middleton, G.

Whiteley, W.

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Millar, J. D.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Falconer, J.

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Foot, Isaac

Morel, E. D.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Gosling, Harry

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Wintringham, Margaret

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Murnin, H.

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Oliver, George Harold

Wright, W.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Paling, W.

Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

Grigg, Sir Edward

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Groves, T.

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Guthrie, Thomas Maule

Phillipps, Vivian

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr. Ammon and Mr. Lunn.—Mr. Ammon and Mr. Lunn.

The next Amendment I shall allow is that standing in the name of the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. S. Webb).

I would submit that an Amendment stand- ing on the Paper in the name of another hon. Member and myself, to leave out the words "four shillings," raises an entirely different point, namely, to increase the rebate, which has not been discussed at all, though it is a point of substance and importance. May I ask whether you will allow it to be formally moved, on the understanding that there is no more discussion, but simply an explanation of the Amendment?

12 M.

It is beside the mark to say that it has not been discussed, but if the hon. Member would like to explain what it means, I do not mind giving him an opportunity.

I beg to move in Sub-section (1) to leave out the words "four shillings" ["the sum of one pound and four shillings"]. This point has not been touched upon to any extent previously, but by increasing the rebate—I do not know what are the calculations of the Treasury on the subject—I understand it will be possible to reduce the price of beer by a further penny per pint. That is an important consideration, and should be looked into by the Committee. In view of what you, Captain Fitzroy, have said, I do not wish to start a lengthy Debate on the matter, but I feel that the penny per pint might be made twopence per pint, and it is with the object of securing that, that the Amendment has been put down.

Are we not to have any reply? On a point of Order, Sir, I think I was very brief in moving the Amendment, and is it not usual for the Government to make some reply? May we not have an explanation in view of the great strength—indeed the unusual strength—of the Treasury Bench to-night.

Order! Order!

Question put "That the words "four shillings" stand part of the Clause."

I had addressed you, Sir. before you collected the voices. Every one on this side of the Committee heard me, and my voice usually carries. In these circumstances, I claim the right to speak.

Amendment negatived.

( seated and covered ): On a point of Order. Is an hon. member not entitled to address the Committee when he rises while you are in the act of putting the Question, and is he refused the right of being heard while you deliberately ignore him, and collect the voices?

The hon. Member is quite wrong in saying that I deliberately ignored him. He did not catch my eye until I had collected the voices.

I had addressed you, Captain Fitzroy, already on the point of Order, and you went straight away to collect the voices. You did so a second time while I was calling your attention to the fact that I was endeavouring to address you.

I had no desire to divide the Committee on this Amendment, and I did not hear any voices on this side of the Committee at all. In view of the fact that there has been no explanation from the Government and no answer at all to the query raised, I propose to raise the matter on the Report stage, and not to proceed further with it now.

I should like to move the Amendment standing in my name—in Subsection (1), after the word "shillings" ["one pound and four shillings"], to insert the words

"Provided that it shall be a condition of allowing such rebate that a reduction equivalent to one penny per pint in the sale price charged by the brewer to the retailer shall be made."

I understood from the hon. Member's leaders that they did not propose to move that Amendment, which stands first in the name of the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb).

Are we to understand that this Amendment is disallowed? I desire to remind you that at an earlier stage of the proceedings, the Chairman of the Committee indicated to my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. F. Gray) that he would have an opportunity of raising a point which he desired to discuss on this particular Amendment.

If hon. Members would not make so much noise, perhaps they would hear me. I distinctly invited the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb), whose name is at the head of the list of Members desiring to move this particular Amendment, to move it, and I was informed by hon. Members on the Front bench that they did not desire to move it, in which case I passed on to the next one which is in Order, but if the hon. Member for Whitehaven (Mr. Duffy) wishes to move this Amendment, he is at liberty to do it.

I beg to move, in subsection (1), after the word "shillings" ["one pound and four shillings"], to insert the words

"Provided that it shall be a condition of allowing such rebate that a reduction equivalent to one penny per pint in the sale price charged by the brewer to the retailer shall be made."

When we ask the Government to accept this Amendment, we do so with no very great amount of gratitude. I make a strong appeal to the Government to accept the Amendment, which is, after all, only accepting what they have put in practice.

This Amendment seeks to put in the Bill a fresh agreement between the wholesaler and the retailer. The arrangement made between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the brewers was that this full rebate should be given to the consumer. That was the main object of the agreement, but the conclusion to which the Government came was that, having regard to the great variety of agreements and arrangements between the wholesaler and the retailer, to insist upon any decision whatever was impossible without going back on the whole position of the period of War control. I am quite certain that neither the Committee nor the country wants to embark again on control as we had it during the War. While the Government do not see their way to introduce this form of control into the Bill, perhaps it is only fair to tell the hon. Member who moved the Amendment, and the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. F. Gray), who is very concerned, and is embued with the idea that the retailer is being very badly treated in this matter, that I have to-day received a letter from the chairman of the Licensed Victuallers' Central Protection Society of London, who has also handed me a letter for the Prime Minister, to this effect:

"Referring to the interview which you were good enough to accord to me at the Treasury on 18th March, last, when I supported my retail friends in asking for reductions in the duties on beer and spirits and in the retailers' licence duty, I write to inform you that the London brewers have made certain reductions in prices for beer to their tenants and customers and, so far as the retailers are concerned, I am satisfied with those arrangements."

The Chairman of the retailers' society, Mr. Belsher, called on me to-day, and asked me to state to the House that they were fully satisfied with the arrangements which had been made, and that they did not want any control inserted in this Bill. That being so, I hope the hon. Member will withdraw his Amendment. If not, I shall be compelled to ask the Committee to reject it.

I would point out, in reply to the Financial Secretary, that even if the statement which he made would satisfy the interests which I seek to serve, the only interests for which he has spoken are the London interests, and not the much larger interests which relate to the provinces. Even if one could be satisfied with that, I wish to put a rather different standpoint before the Committee. A great deal has been said to-night by those representing different interests, by those representing the manufacturers and those representing the workers, but I do not know that anybody, so far, has claimed to represent the licensed victuallers. I certainly do not propose myself to claim to represent them in the constituency which I represent, and where I am best known by the licensed victuallers. It is only fair to say that I think the very last minute which appears upon their minute book was one passed last November—I do not think it was a unanimous decision, but certainly it was carried by a large majority—that pledged them to use their very best endeavours to prevent Mr. Frank Gray being returned to the House of Commons. Nevertheless, I desire to speak on their behalf, and still more do I desire to speak on behalf of the general public of this country. So far as the licensed victuallers are concerned, knowing their trade, and having represented their trade in the past on many occasions, I should not ask them to support me or to allow me to use their names in this matter, because I know prefectly well that the nature of the agreements with the brewers are such that any action on their part in that direction would redound to their own discomfort in the near future.

The point I desire to put is this. The licensed victuallers' trade I believe to be, both at the hands of the brewers and at the hands of the public, a very harassed trade and a trade which needs somebody who will speak independently on their behalf. In this country you throw upon the licensed victualler the greatest responsibility in the conduct of a most difficult trade, and it is the general public who are looking to the licensed victuallers for the proper conduct of this difficult trade. In order that you may get men of sufficient standing and status to carry upon their shoulders that responsibility, it is necessary, in my opinion, for them to have a larger share in the profit than they get at the present time, and also a much greater status in the agreements which they hold with their landlords. The hon. Member for North Kensington (Mr. Gates), whom I am sure we are all more likely to congratulate than to sympathise with, told us there was no disagreement between the brewers and the retailers. I think I have explained one of the reasons why at least there is an apparent agreement between them. I will point out this to show the treatment and share of profit the retailers get. If you go into any city or town in England, in the provinces, to which I am more particularly addressing my remarks, you will find in club premises, political and otherwise, that the local beer is not on sale. At all events, you will not see it for sale in large quantities.

On a point of Order. Has this anything to do with the Amendment before the Committee?

It is difficult to say at this stage whether the hon. Member's arguments are in order or not on this Amendment. I would ask him to confine himself as closely as possible to the Amendment on the Paper.

If you look at the unhappy position occupied by the hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Balfour), sitting as he does between two great interests which are exercising great pressure upon him, you will not be surprised that he was trying to place a very definite limit upon this discussion. I sympathise with him and suggest that he should sit elsewhere in future. The point I was making was that if you go into clubs you will find that beer is being sold there which has been transported in some cases more than a hundred miles. The brewers are able to transport the beer a hundred miles, put it into clubs, give a better article, and still sell it at a profit. You may ask why it is that the local brewers cannot compete with them. They could if they wished, in their own city or town, put beer into clubs to compete with foreign beer, but in order to do so they would have to sell a better quality than they are selling to the public houses, and they would have to sell it to the club at a price considerably lower.

That is an observation which the hon. and gallant Gentleman should not have made. That they cannot do, because they cannot sell it in the same town to a club at a less price than they are selling to their own licensed victuallers. It is in the interests of the general community that we should improve the status of the licensed victuallers in this country, so that we may get the type of men suitable for their great responsibilities, and I think that my Amendment is calculated to improve the position of these men.

I support this Amendment, because I have received a letter from a retailer in my constituency, in which he says that the bargain to reduce beer by one penny per pint has not been carried out with the retailer. He says that on every dozen pints of beer he gets 10d. off, and he has to pay the other 2d. in the shilling which is supposed to be allowed to him. It seems to me that the bargain made with the Government ought to be kept by the brewers to the full, and that the consumer should get the full advantage.

I think the difficulty is the consideration that the advantage which was intended to be passed on to the consumer might not reach him, and in the meantime the burden might be borne unfairly by the licensed victualler and the brewer. I was glad that the Financial Secretary was able to give us the result of certain negotiations in London. I hoped that he might be able to tell us that the same applies to other licensed victuallers throughout the country, because they have strongly complained since the Budget was introduced of being hit in two ways. In the first place, the brewers have been reducing the gravity, and I have here the resolution of the licensed victuallers themselves. They complain first of all of being charged the same price for a beer of less gravity; and, secondly, they complain that some part of the 4s. which undoubtedly the Prime Minister intended the brewers to bear has been passed on to them. I will read the resolution of the Licensed Victuallers' Defence League passed at a conference held at Bridlington on the 9th and 10th May this year—

"This conference expresses a strong protest against the reduction made in the pre-Budget specific gravity of beer contrary to the terms of the contract entered into by the brewers and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, thus imposing on tied tenants a serious diminution of profits which are already insufficient to meet current expenses."

That resolution was caried. The responsible association representing the licensed victuallers throughout the country thought it necessary in May, consequent upon the action of certain brewers, to make that protest. That is borne out by a statement in "Harper's Spirit Gazette" on May 26th, 1923, published in a letter from a licensed victualler. The name is not given, but the editor refers to him as "a well-known licensed victualler in an important city," and this is what he says:

"It is very interesting, seeing all the brewers promised that the gravity of ale should not be lowered after the last Budget, to find that beer analysed on April 9th, 1923, came out at 1040·1 whilst on May 16th the same class of beer after the Budget was 1038·4. It was a 7d. beer before the Budget but it is now classed at 6d. If this is not a broken promise I do not know what is. I enclose the analyst's report."

There is in the same journal a leading article based upon that letter in which it is stated that

"It will be distinctly remembered that the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced in the House of Commons that in order to enable him to have a reduction of 24s. per bulk barrel the brewers had agreed to pay 4a. of this."

The article goes on to say:

"Harper's now learn that certain big brewery companies, instead of contributing the 4s. promised, are only bearing 2s. 9d., and they are asking their tenants to bear the balance of 1s. 3d."

That is the second complaint. At the Licensed Victuallers Conference, held on the 9th and 10th of May, there were strong complaints and the following resolution was passed:

"This conference, having received many complaints that certain breweries were not allowing the full rebate of 24s. per bulk barrel, call upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer to adopt such means as he deems advisable to enforce the full rebate."

No doubt that resolution was sent to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and probably the result is that some pressure has been brought to bear which has produced the letter read by the Financial Secretary a moment or two ago. There was another gentleman at the same conference who said that No. 5 District had a complaint to make. He said:

"They would have to fight those who were not allowing the full 24s. or there would be a danger of the brewers who were acting fairly following the example of those who were not. Some bottlers had reduced their stout and ale by only 10d. a dozen, or 20s. a barrel."

So the complaints went on and I believe one of the methods adopted has been this, that instead of making the rebate upon the net amount paid they have made it upon the gross amount paid, which has made a difference of 1s. 3d. a barrel. In the "Brewers' Journal" that was spoken of as being a small matter. As a matter of fact, upon the large number of barrels the amount is very considerable, not merely hundreds of pounds but scores of thousands of pounds. I am quite sure it was the instruction of the Prime Minister, certainly he made it clear in his speech here, that the 4s. should be the burden borne by the brewers themselves. Many Members of this House think that that was all too small a burden. It is a monstrous thing if having arrived at that arrangement the brewers who have been making, as we know in many instances, such considerable profits should put upon the small man a proportion of the burden. If these complaints have been made not by those to whom the term "Pussyfoot" has been addressed but by the licensed victuallers themselves I do not think the letter has been read by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury covers this matter and gives us a sufficient answer to assure us that these men are not being unfairly treated. They are not very often in a position to speak for themselves. The tied tenant is not free to fight his own battle. If the hon. Member who represents North Kensington (Mr. Gates) can give us an assurance that the arrangement arrived at to-day, applying it may be to London, is to apply to all the licensed victuallers throughout the country there would be no necessity for this Amendment. But unless there is this assurance I intend to vote for the Amendment to protect the licensed victualler.

I wish to protest against the Government's attitude in reference to the Amendment. What is the position? You have the case of the licensed trade in Scotland, which is very anxious to secure not only a rebate on the beer but also some concession from the Government on the spirit duty. Here we have an Amendment which means absolutely nothing from the point of view of the licensed victualler in many parts of the country, whether in England or Scotland. The Amendment challenges the Government to meet the consumer on the basis of a concession on the question of the beer duty. But from the point of view of the licensed trade in my own constituency, the Montrose Burghs, it means nothing. I am the last man in the world to appear here in defence of the licensed trade. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up!"] The Amendment deals simply with one side of the case. When I was last in Scotland I had protests from every one of the Montrose Burghs against the heavy impost under the present Budget duties. The concession which the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has given as regards beer does not affect Scottish interests in the slightest degree. I protest against this Government, which professes to stand for all that is true, pure, and all that is Conservative, bringing in a proposal which will secure benefits to England but no benefits to Scotland. The point I have to make is this, that the Government has not seen its way to make any honest concession in its present Budget. The whole thing is humbug——

On a point of Order. Is the hon. Gentleman, in discussing a particular Amendment, in order in dealing with the general principles of the Budget?

If the hon. and gallant Member for Rusholme (Captain Thorpe) rises to a point of Order, the hon. Member for Montrose Burghs (Mr. Sturrock) must give way.

On a point of Order. Do you wish the Committee to interpret your last ruling as meaning that an hon. Member, as long as he continue to speak, and is inaudible to the Chair, may continue to be inaudible and continue to speak?

I am very sorry that I spoke in a lower voice than I usually adopt. If I failed to convey my argument to my hon. and gallant Friend opposite, I shall have great pleasure in beginning again at the point at which I started. [ Interruption. ] I shall certainly do my best to enlighten and inform my hon. And gallant Friend on the points I wish to raise on this particular Amendment. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up."] I shall only say that we have here an Amendment which appears to me to merit the utmost consideration of this Committee. I am very glad that any of us. no matter how obscure we may be, should have an opportunity of raising our voices—[ Interruption ]—in protest against the attitude of the Government on this particular point. As I say, I have as a Member of Parliament deputations from the licensed trade in every part——

On a point of Order. Is not this entirely irrelevant to the Amendment before the Committee?

If hon. Members will keep silent, I shall be able to hear what the hon. Member is saying.

rose in his place, and claimed to move," That the Question be now put," but the Deputy-Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.

I may not be heard as audibly on the other side as one would wish. That, I submit, is not my fault.

They keep constantly interrupting. I do not wish to keep it going more than another hour or so. I have, as I have said——

rose in his place, and claimed to move," That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 190; Noes, 96.

Division No. 199.]

AYES.

[12.50 a.m.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynts

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Paget, T. G.

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Parker, Owen (Kettering)

Apsley, Lord

Furness, G. J.

Pease, William Edwin

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

Garland, C. S.

Penny, Frederick George

Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

Gates, Percy

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Astor, Viscountess

Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

Goff, Sir R. Park

Philipson, Mabel

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Gould, James C.

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Privett, F. J.

Banks, Mitchell

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Rankin, Captain James Stuart

Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

Gretton, Colonel John

Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Barnston, Major Harry

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Becker, Harry

Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'I, W. D'by)

Remer, J. R.

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Halstead, Major D.

Remnant, Sir James

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Rentoul, G. S.

Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

Harrison, F. C.

Reynolds, W. G. W.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Harvey, Major S. E.

Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Hawke, John Anthony

Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

Blundell, F. N.

Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Brass, Captain W.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isl'gt'n W)

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

Russell, William (Bolton)

Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

Bruford, R.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Hood, Sir Joseph

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Hopkins, John W. W.

Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Button, H. S.

Hudson, Capt. A.

Shepperson, E. W.

Cadogan, Major Edward

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Skelton, A. N.

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

Cautley, Henry Strother

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor)

Stanley, Lord

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

Steel, Major S. Strang

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Clarry, Reginald George

Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

Clayton, G. C.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Lamb, J. Q.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Thorpe, Captain John Henry

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Lougher, L.

Titchfield, Marquess of

Cope, Major William

Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

Lynn, R. J.

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Wallace, Captain E.

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Wells, S. R.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Manville, Edward

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Margesson, H. D. R.

White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

Mercer, Colonel H.

Winterton, Earl

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Wise, Frederick

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Ednam, Viscount

Murchison, C. K.

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Nail, Major Joseph

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Ellis, R. G.

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Yerburgh, R. D. T.

Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson and Lieut.-Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Lieut.-Colonel Gibbs.

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Fawkes, Major F. H.

Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

Forestier-Walker, L.

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

NOES.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Batey, Joseph

Harbord, Arthur

Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hardie, George D.

Royce, William Stapleton

Berkeley, Captain Reginald

Harris, Percy A.

Saklatvala, S.

Bonwick, A.

Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

Salter, Dr. A.

Broad, F. A.

Hayday, Arthur

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Brotherton, J.

Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

Sinclair, Sir A.

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Smith, T. (Pontefract)

Burgess, S.

Herriotts, J.

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Cape, Thomas

Hirst, G. H.

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

Chapple, W. A.

Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

Stephen, Campbell

Charleton, H. C.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Collins, Pat (Walsall)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Sturrock, J. Leng

Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

Sullivan, J.

Darbishire, C. W.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Dudgeon, Major C. R.

Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Duffy, T. Gavan

Lawson, John James

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Ede, James Chuter

Leach, W.

Thornton, M.

Edge, Captain Sir William

Lunn, William

Turner, Ben

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Waring, Major Walter

Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

M'Entee, V. L.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Falconer, J.

Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Foot, Isaac

Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

Welsh, J. C.

Gosling, Harry

Maxton, James

Whiteley, W.

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Millar, J. D.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Morltz

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Murnin, H.

Wintringham, Margaret

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

O'Grady, Captain James

Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

Grigg, Sir Edward

Paling, W.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Grundy, T. W.

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Guthrie, Thomas Maule

Phillipps, Vivian

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr. Ammon and Mr. Neil Maclean.—Mr. Ammon and Mr. Neil Maclean.

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Pringle, W. M. R.

Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted."

Division No. 200.]

AYES.

[12.57 a.m.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Harbord, Arthur

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Ammon, Charles George

Hardie, George D.

Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

Batey, Joseph

Harris, Percy A.

Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

Berkeley, Captain Reginald

Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

Royce, William Stapleton

Bonwick, A.

Hayday, Arthur

Saklatvala, S.

Broad, F. A.

Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

Salter, Dr. A.

Brotherton, J.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Herriotts, J.

Sinclair, Sir A.

Burgess, S.

Hirst, G. H.

Smith, T. (Pontefract)

Cape, Thomas

Hughes, Collingwood

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Chapple, W. A.

Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

Stephen, Campbell

Charleton, H. C.

Jarrett, G. W. S.

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

Collins, Pat (Walsall)

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Sturrock, J. Leng

Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Sullivan, J.

Darbishire, C. W.

Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Duffy, T. Gavan

Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Ede, James Chuter

Lawson, John James

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Edge, Captain Sir William

Leach, W.

Thornton, M.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

M'Entee, V. L.

Turner, Ben

Falconer, J.

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Foot, Isaac

Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Gosling, Harry

Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

Welsh, J. C.

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Maxton, James

Whiteley, W.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Millar, J. D.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Morltz

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Murnin, H.

Wintringham, Margaret

Grigg, Sir Edward

O'Grady, Captain James

Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

Grundy, T. W.

Paling, W.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Guthrie, Thomas Maule

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Hall, F. (York W. R., Normanton)

Phillipps, Vivian

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr. Morgan Jones and Mr. Lunn.—Mr. Morgan Jones and Mr. Lunn.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Pringle, W. M. R.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Astor, Viscountess

Barnston, Major Harry

Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Becker, Harry

Apsley, Lord

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Banks, Mitchell

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Blundell, F. N.

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Philipson, Mabel

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'I. W. D'by)

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Brass, Captain W.

Halstead, Major D.

Privett, F. J.

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Rankin, Captain James Stuart

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Harrison, F. C.

Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

Harvey, Major S. E.

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Hawke, John Anthony

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Bruford, R.

Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

Remer, J. R.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Remnant, Sir James

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Rentoul, G. S.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

Reynolds, W. G. W.

Button, H. S.

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J P.

Cadogan, Major Edward

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Cautley, Henry Strother

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Hood, Sir Joseph

Robertson-Despencer, Major(Isl'gt'n W)

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Hopkins, John W. W.

Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Churchman, Sir Arthur

Hudson, Capt. A.

Russell, William (Bolton)

Clarry, Reginald George

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

Clayton, G. C.

Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor)

Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

Shepperson, E. W.

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

Skelton, A. N.

Cope, Major William

Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Stanley, Lord

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Lamb, J. Q.

Steel, Major S. Strang

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Lougher, L.

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

Dudgeon, Major C. R.

Lynn, R. J.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Ednam, Viscount

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Manville, Edward

Thorpe, Captain John Henry

Ellis, R. G.

Margesson, H. D. R.

Titchfield, Marquess of

Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

Mercer, Colonel H.

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bo'ton M.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Wallace, Captain E.

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

Waring, Major Walter

Fawkes, Major F. H.

Murchison, C. K.

Wells, S. R.

Forestier-Walker. L.

Nall, Major Joseph

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

Winterton, Earl

Furness, G. J.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Wise, Frederick

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Garland, C. S.

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Gates, Percy

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

Paget, T. G.

Yerburgh, R. D. T.

Goff, Sir R. Park

Parker, Owen (Kettering)

Gould, James C.

Pease, William Edwin

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Penny, Frederick George

Gretton, Colonel John

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

I would have liked a short discussion on the Amendment standing in my name, but I think at the same time it was understood that we should get Clause 2 and Clause 3 about this time of the night. If that be so, we should perhaps be well advised to defer any further protest until the Report stage. Anything I have to say can be said on the Report stage, and I do not therefore press my Amendment.

There is an observation that ought to be offered before we part with this Clause. It is always pleasant to postpone a duty from the small hours of the morning till the move convenient Report stage, but I do not see how that is consistent with principle, because on the Second Reading we decide on the principle of the Bill, and if we accept it now it may be difficult to reject it later. It appears to me that this Clause embodies a very weak piece of financial legislation. You have this position, that a certain large number of millions, a round sum, is necessary under our fiscal condition in order to effect the minimum possible reduction of price in the average unit of sale. That is of greater importance now after the War than it was before, because of the general rise in prices. A larger number of millions is necessary in order to effect the minimum reduction of price of the average unit of sale. It appears to me there are several reasonable courses by which the Government could meet the situation. One reasonable course is to wait until you can afford to remit taxation in order to bring so much aid to a particular subject of taxation as to enable the traders themselves to reduce the average unit of sale by the minimum amount possible, namely, a penny per pint. That is perfectly reasonable. Then, when you have made the reduction in taxation, you can trust our familiar friends, the laws of supply and demand, to effect the reduction in price. That has always been done in the past. I am not advocating that in this case. I am very far from advocating that the Government should have put a greater reduction of taxation to the credit of beer. Not at all. It ought to have gone in another direction.

There is another reasonable course the Government might follow. When they found that they had not enough elbow reduction of taxation to give the whole penny per pint, they ought to have looked elsewhere and reduced the taxation in another quarter, in tea and sugar. There is plenty of money to do that. But they rejected that reasonable course. There is still another reasonable course. The third reasonable course is that they should have done what they did as regards the amount of relief they gave to taxation but they should have extracted from the trade a promise to reduce the price of beer. I do not attach importance to the difficulty in regard to enforcing that scheme. There would be no difficulty in putting into the Schedule of the Bill a provision that the price of beer should be according to the reduction. Another way in which it would be more to the satisfaction of Members on these benches would be to give the rebate for a shorter time, say six months instead of the whole year. Let me commend that to the Government as a possible course. I ask them, before the Clause goes, to consider these reasonable courses. The unreasonable course has been adopted of giving the trade not enough to affect the whole reduction of a penny a pint and leaving it to the good will and kind intentions of the trade to give the public the benefit. I treat the kindly expressions of good intention read by the Financial Secretary as not worth the paper they are written on. It is a new precedent to come to this great legislative assembly and ask to be content with an implied agreement and not an Act of Parliament.

I should like to reinforce what has been so ably put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich (Mr. H. Young). It really seems to me that we are embarking on this matter in a very light-hearted manner. I do not know if the Committee realise the amount of the remission implied in the Prime Minister's figure, namely, that the percentage paid by the trade, the 4s. was equivalent to a contribution by the trade of £5,000,000 a year. The total of that remission is equivalent to diverting from the revenue £25,000,000 sterling. That is a very formidable sum. It would have staggered Chancellors of the Exchequers in pre-War days and the sooner we get back and begin to think of money in terms of pre-War value the better it will be for the finances of this country. Passing from that to the question of the consumer—which after all is the substantial point—the Government's defence of the reduction is that the general public will reap the benefit, or at any rate-that a large proportion of the public will reap the benefit. When the Financial Secretary speaks in an airy way about undertakings and agreements with the trade and about this and that being done for the consumer, I would like to know if he has got a specific undertaking that the price of beer will be reduced all over the country by the equivalent of one penny a pint? If he has got an undertaking of that kind, has he got substantial grounds for believing that there will be no evasion of the guarantee afterwards? I was staggered at the revelation of the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Foot). It really seemed almost too cynical for belief that within four weeks of the conclusion of this so-called gentleman's agreement with the brewery industry there should have been a successful endeavour to pass on a proportion of the loss to be sustained upon another industry. They have passed on apparently something like one-third of the sum which they had agreed to pay upon the licensed victuallers' industry. I want to know from the Financial Secretary what guarantee has he that, after this Bill has been passed, the trade will not evade their implied undertaking to the consumer, as apparently they are seeking to evade it with the licensed victuallers? There is another point. What undertaking has he that, in the event of the materials from which beer is manufactured rising in price, there will not be a rise in the price of beer? I submit we are entitled to a reply.

I think I can reply to the hon. Member. I think I can give the guarantee on this point. The Prime Minister has told us that it is only by making an arrangement with the brewers that we can carry this through. I will not challenge that, but I think the country will learn with a good deal of regret that now, and I gather at all future times, a re-arrangement of taxation on beer can only be made with the assent of the brewers themselves. Where I do challenge the Prime Minister is when he takes credit to himself for having brought about the arrangement. That I challenge for this reason, and this is why I think my hon. Friend the Member for Central Nottingham (Captain Berkeley) has a full guarantee that the brewers will not turn back from their bargain. We all want cheap beer, or rather I should say some of us want it. But the people who want cheap beer above everybody else are the brewers themselves. The brewers have made, as we have heard, large profits. During the great boom of brewery amalgamation they watered their capital as much as they are watering their beer now. In addition to making large profits and paving large dividends during the war and since, they have been able to build up the very shaky finance which prevailed in a good many breweries as a result of over capitalisation. They have done that by selling what is only called beer as a courtesy title, and which I heard described, I believe accurately, as fourpence worth of tax and fourpence worth of science and water. Now we are going to get a reduction in the price of beer for this reason. As the supply of money which prevailed immediately after the war, began, in the year 1922, to run short, the brewers discovered that the number of people who were prepared to buy beer at the high price was diminishing, and it was they, as a matter of fact, who first set on foot the propaganda for getting a reduction on the pint of beer. It was that which enabled the Prime Minister to make his wonderful achievement as a negotiator which he did with the brewers

I think the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. F. Gray) has almost answered the question of the hon. Member for Central Nottingham (Captain Berkeley). Perhaps I may be allowed to say that the Government, in making this arrangement with the brewers, obtained an agreement with the brewers that the price should be reduced to the consumer by one penny per pint and that the gravity should not be altered. That was the sole agreement made. The Government did not make an agreement in reference to the position of the brewer and the retailer. In the speech I made two hours ago I said quite frankly that the Government would not embark on negotiations for the control of the retailer and the brewer. That must be left to the play of supply and demand and the various arrangements which the brewers make. We found, the moment we began to make inquiry, that the terms and conditions between one brewery and another and the retailers were entirely different. There was no standard agreement between the brewer and the retailer. Some charged high rents for their houses and low prices for the beer, and others charged low rents and high prices.

Possibly some both, and possibly some neither. I think the hon. Member for Oxford will see that it really would not be possible without re-imposing the whole conditions of war-time control to deal with the question as between brewer and retailer. There is one thing I would like to say with regard to the speech of the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Foot) an hour ago. I was very surprised to hear statements made as to changes in the specific gravity of beer I would be very glad if he would send me the names and addresses of brewers who have broken the agreement between the brewers and the Prime Minister.

I have no knowledge of the names and addresses of the brewers. All I can give is the resolution adopted by the Licensed Victuallers' conference at their annual meeting. There were no names and addresses given in that.

Then the Licensed Victuallers' Society will take notice of it and forward them to me. I think the Committee might desire to report Progress now and let the Clause be taken.

In the event of this pledge not being carried out, will the duty be re-imposed?

I must ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman to wait and see. This is what he frankly called a gentleman's agreement between the Prime Minister and the brewers If it were flagrantly broken, there is power in the House to take action.

I am a brewer myself, and am only going to say two words. I have heard speeches to-night by men who do not know what they are talking about. If the brewers do not carry out their agreement, the Prime Minister and the House of Commons have power to punish them next year by putting on the duty heavily, and I sincerely trust they will if the agreement be broken.

Clubs are in exactly the same position as some of the retailers who are being charged in this way and I trust the Financial Secretary will look into their case, too, and see that they get justice.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 3.—(Rebate from customs duty on beer.)

(1) There shall, in respect of beer imported into Great Britain or Northern Ireland, on or after the seventeenth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, be allowed from the Customs duty payable on importation a rebate of one pound for every thirty-six gallons of beer, or, where the duty payable in respect of thirty-six gallons of beer is less than two pounds tour shillings and threepence, a rebate equal to the amount by which the duty exceeds the sum of one pound four shillings and threepence.

(2) The Customs drawback payable on the exportation or shipment for use as stores of any beer imported into Great Britain or Northern Ireland shall, unless it is shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise that no rebate has been allowed in respect of that beer under this Section, be reduced by an amount equal to the amount of the rebate allowable under this Section in respect of that beer.

This Sub-section shall be deemed to have had effect as from the seventeenth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-three.

The following Amendment stood on the paper in the name of Mr. HARNEY: In "Sub-section (1) after the word 'rebate' ["a rebate of one pound"], to insert the words 'to the brewers and retailers.'"

I have some doubt as to the meaning of this Amendment, and it appears to me impracticable. Perhaps one of the hon. members who support it will explain its object.

So far as I am concerned, I do not propose to move that Amendment.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

I wish to associate myself with what has been said by the right cerned, I do not propose to move that that it is to late to discuss this Clause, and that we will have the opportunity of raising it on the Report stage.

Question put, and agreed to.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[ Colonel Leslie Wilson. ]

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after half-past eleven of the clock, upon Monday evening, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Twenty-eight minutes after One o'Clock.